# LYS What would you do



## lemonygodess (Apr 11, 2013)

Had an issue with my LYS.Saw a completed item and asked the owner to order the book as it was sold out.Came for it, was told sorry sold out on it and it may be as much as a month before its back in stock.But, if I would buy the yarn for the project she'd copy me the pattern.Not trying to get something free here and felt a little held up. So I told her I'm not prepared to do that.Copyright issue, also what if I don't want to use your yarn?Told her a shawl was cute on the wall, her reply was,"Yeah, everything here is real cute."I was upset by this and DH was so angry.Sorry needed to vent a bit.


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## mopgenorth (Nov 20, 2011)

I definitely wouldn't pass her threshold again. There are so many other places to get patterns, nice yarn, AND good service.


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## Mercygirl76 (Dec 30, 2012)

I hope you got the name of the pattern and book it was sold in. Perhaps you could order it online or through another LYS. Like someone else said, I wouldn't go to that LYS again!


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## lemonygodess (Apr 11, 2013)

Sadly she wasn't about to give that info out.


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## HandyFamily (Sep 30, 2011)

The Book Depository: http://www.bookdepository.com/?redirected=true&gclid=CLS2u6yM1LgCFaPHtAodISUAvQ
They have pretty much every book that is available (not things that are long sold out and can only be found if someone sells their own copy, of course), they are have great custom service and once you have the book you can decide to make another item from it - or the one you liked - and get the yarn from any place you want.


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## HandyFamily (Sep 30, 2011)

lemonygodess said:


> Sadly she wasn't about to give that info out.


Oh, I get it.
Well... There are more shawl patterns than LYSs. I wouldn't go to this one again.


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## aussiefletch49 (Jan 3, 2013)

She's only interested in selling you something not service. Forget this store.


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## wiremysoul (Dec 4, 2012)

I'm all for boycotting her store, frankly, but honestly, she needs to know you're doing it because of her lousy service or its just not going to matter to her. I would tell her flat out that withholding the title of a book/pattern she doesn't even carry is bad for business, and offering to copy something from her own copy of the book is illegal. If she wants knitters to buy in her store, she should encourage any and all knitting by offering the info regardless of the chance for a sale. What a stupid (w)itch. I'm sorry you were upset by her, Lemony.. and I wholeheartedly recommend Thebookdepository.com as well, they have free shipping and often lower prices than Amazon. Always check though. Is there another employee there who might be willing to tell you the name of the shawl, by chance? Worth a phone call to the shop later.


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## Keispa (Dec 30, 2012)

This is how my devious mind works. Lol..I would wait that month for it be reordered and come in, then I would go in just to see if the book did indeed come in, I would act like I intended to buy it, write down the name , act like I was browsing for yarn to use with the pattern then tell her I think I've changed my mind, and let her know that it is because of the way I was treated by you the last time I was in. You would then have the name of the book and could order it else where. It could very well be a book that is no longer being published and she is just trying to get you to buy yarn there.


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## elaineadams (Oct 17, 2011)

The shop was in the wrong here anyway. You ordered the book, so as soon as new stock came in the owner should have phoned to say the book was now in stock, and arranged for a day suitable for you to collect and pay.


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## Jillyrich (Feb 11, 2013)

Try amazon for the book it will probably be cheaper.


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## mavisb (Apr 18, 2011)

I am sorry, but I disagree with you ladies. I believe this LYS was providing a service by agreeing to photocopy the pattern, albeit copyright, it was just one pattern out of the book and she may have wanted to help Lemon Godess to get some wool that would have looked lovely in that particular shawl. 

I also say there are three sides to the story, your truth, their truth and in the middle the correct truth.

Sorry if I have upset anyone by disagreeing, but please don't shoot me down for having my own opinion.


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## crazy-dutch-lady (May 26, 2012)

Really like your idea !!! With todays economy and the competition of the internet and box stores,,,small business should be extra careful about good customer service !!!!


Keispa said:


> This is how my devious mind works. Lol..I would wait that month for it be reordered and come in, then I would go in just to see if the book did indeed come in, I would act like I intended to buy it, write down the name , act like I was browsing for yarn to use with the pattern then tell her I think I've changed my mind, and let her know that it is because of the way I was treated by you the last time I was in. You would then have the name of the book and could order it else where. It could very well be a book that is no longer being published and she is just trying to get you to buy yarn there.


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## sseidel (Apr 20, 2012)

lemonygodess said:


> Had an issue with my LYS.Saw a completed item and asked the owner to order the book as it was sold out.Came for it, was told sorry sold out on it and it may be as much as a month before its back in stock.But, if I would buy the yarn for the project she'd copy me the pattern.Not trying to get something free here and felt a little held up. So I told her I'm not prepared to do that.Copyright issue, also what if I don't want to use your yarn?Told her a shawl was cute on the wall, her reply was,"Yeah, everything here is real cute."I was upset by this and DH was so angry.Sorry needed to vent a bit.


Sounds like the owner was trying to" up sell " you. I'm sure that you can order or find the book that you wanted somewhere on line.


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## destinyarnshop (Apr 6, 2013)

I own a yarn shop and feel I need to say something here, and many of you will probably not like my comments, but this is the way a shop owner would see it. First, did the customer order the book by putting a deposit on it, get a receipt and leave the shop a phone number to call when it came in? If not, there was no obligation to hold a copy...although, it would have been ideal to have gotten the info and called, sometimes we owners have memory issues or get too busy to follow through. I know I try my best to please all customers, but sometimes I just forget to leave myself a note about it. Second, a shop makes very little income on pattern sales...we carry them as a resource for our yarns, and rely on those yarn sales to keep us in business. A knitted sample for our shops takes hours and hours to complete and creativity for color choice and pattern interpretation. Lately, I have had customers with pen and paper come in, ask about names of patterns, yarns and construction advice, then write it all down and announce to me that they can get it cheaper on line. I struggle to remain open for many who use my shop as a viewing area for color and texture and then support online business. We all want to get a deal, but this is the ultimate in offensiveness...what will these people do when there is no one around to fix their mistakes and give them new inspiration. Sorry, but I think you all should try harder to support your LYS...it may cost you a little more, but you get free help and access to quality goods that you don't get with online shopping. How about one purchase out of every five from your LYS? BTW, thank you, mavisb for your support. You are right, you never know the other side of the story. I'll bet you all never consider the theft that befalls the LYS...I have had people steal shop models, yarn, books and patterns, even toilet paper from my bathroom. Please consider this the next time you get upset with your local store. Oh, and also, there is very little money in owning a yarn shop. I do it because I have been taken to the cleaners by my last husband and have a 32 yr old autistic son who lives with me and can't keep a job so I have to support the two of us with my income. We just barely make it, but I worry about our future.
So, forgive me if I disagree here, and please, all of you, put yourself in the LYS owner's shoes and see how you would feel about losing yarn sales to online companies or sharing your pattern sources with people who walk out with your ideas and buy elsewhere. One thing I will tell you that the other owner did that is NOT alright is to offer to copy anything from a book. Also, her snippy remark was uncalled for and I can only say that maybe she had been through a tough day when lemonygodess got there.


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## Pumpkin007 (Jan 2, 2013)

mavisb said:


> I am sorry, but I disagree with you ladies. I believe this LYS was providing a service by agreeing to photocopy the pattern, albeit copyright, it was just one pattern out of the book and she may have wanted to help Lemon Godess to get some wool that would have looked lovely in that particular shawl.
> 
> I also say there are three sides to the story, your truth, their truth and in the middle the correct truth.
> 
> Sorry if I have upset anyone by disagreeing, but please don't shoot me down for having my own opinion.


Sorry but wrong is wrong and copying that pattern would be wrong. And to add to it by insisting the yarn be bought in her store well that just makes it even worse!


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## Yarn Happy (May 13, 2012)

I don't have the luxury of a LYS, if I did I would try to buy everything I could from them, especially with this economy. I fear that as years pass so will all of the LYSs, just to hard to compete with the large chain stores and online stores. Maybe the owner of your store is feeling this pressure? Sometimes it might be best to take a deep breath. 

My only yarn store is a Hobby Lobby, and most of the clerks there don't really even know anything about most of what they sell, no help to be found.


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## Linday (Jan 22, 2012)

I frequent my two LYS. I find that their prices are in line with large stores, such as Michael's. They have more choice and are knowledgeable about their products. If I want something that is out of stock, I leave my name and phone number. I get a call with a request for a call back to let them know when I will be in to pick up my item after it arrives. I can order things they don't normally carry, not so with Michael's. Once you are known things get even better. 

There is one LYS in town where I have heard from people who have never entered her store that she is not very nice. I know that to be definitely not the truth. She is very nice but takes a bit to get to know. Because I kept going in to her store we now have a relationship where we chat about other than knitting. She will try to get anything I want if it comes from one of her suppliers and usually within 2-3 days. Just don't ask for synthetics, that may cost you your head.

The owner should not have offered to copy the pattern, because it is against copyright, plain and simple. I would have mentioned this to the owner/employee, perhaps they weren't aware. Some stores have permission to give copies of patterns with the purchase of the yarn to complete the project and this may have been the case in this instance. Without knowing the entire story we cannot comment on the reasons for the offer and we cannot judge. 

The Bible says "Let those who are without sin cast the first stone". I believe that not many stones would be thrown if we are honest with ourselves. Who among us can honestly say we have never passed on a copy of a pattern. Very few if any I would hazard to guess.


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## lizmaxwell (Jul 23, 2011)

I'm sorry but I am missing something here. You can't blame the LYS owner for trying to sell her yarn to you. In order to make the sale she was willing to flout copyright laws and to help you do your project. Or do you think that you were being set up ie the pattern was probably available but she said that it wasn't in order to get you to buy the wool.

As for not telling the name of the shawl pattern that was strange, but perhaps she is struggling and selling you some wool , might have been her only sale of the day.


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## dachsmom (Aug 23, 2011)

I am as big a bargain hunter as anyone and buy a lot on line. I do however also try to support my LYS. I may not be able to buy sweater quantity yarn but I do try to buy smaller purchases there. Also buy most of my supplies such as blocking wires, pins etc there. If I can buy it reasonably close to the same price local I do.


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## destinyarnshop (Apr 6, 2013)

lizmaxwell said:


> I'm sorry but I am missing something here. You can't blame the LYS owner for trying to sell her yarn to you. In order to make the sale she was willing to flout copyright laws and to help you do your project. Or do you think that you were being set up ie the pattern was probably available but she said that it wasn't in order to get you to buy the wool.
> 
> As for not telling the name of the shawl pattern that was strange, but perhaps she is struggling and selling you some wool , might have been her only sale of the day.


Thank you for this comment. If you have read mine, you are right on target with the LYS situation...glad there are knitters like you around with the insight and empathy you show for shopowners like me. I hope many of the people on this forum see what you have written and adjust their perception.....


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## destinyarnshop (Apr 6, 2013)

dachsmom said:


> I am as big a bargain hunter as anyone and buy a lot on line. I do however also try to support my LYS. I may not be able to buy sweater quantity yarn but I do try to buy smaller purchases there. Also buy most of my supplies such as blocking wires, pins etc there. If I can buy it reasonably close to the same price local I do.


Bless you and thank you for your support for your LYS!


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## dachsmom (Aug 23, 2011)

dachsmom said:


> I am as big a bargain hunter as anyone and buy a lot on line. I do however also try to support my LYS. I may not be able to buy sweater quantity yarn but I do try to buy smaller purchases there. Also buy most of my supplies such as blocking wires, pins etc there. If I can buy it reasonably close to the same price local I do.


They can't really be faulted for trying to sell their yarn, that is their business. Snippy remarks shouldn't happen but maybe she was having a bad day. You never know what occurred right before you walked in.


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## Pumpkin007 (Jan 2, 2013)

lizmaxwell said:


> I'm sorry but I am missing something here. You can't blame the LYS owner for trying to sell her yarn to you. In order to make the sale she was willing to flout copyright laws and to help you do your project. Or do you think that you were being set up ie the pattern was probably available but she said that it wasn't in order to get you to buy the wool.
> 
> As for not telling the name of the shawl pattern that was strange, but perhaps she is struggling and selling you some wool , might have been her only sale of the day.


So in order to make a sale you can break the law?


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## dachsmom (Aug 23, 2011)

I know that some patterns can be given as free,per the yarn companies, with the purchase of the yarn, usually when the book is from the same yarn company. Who knows if this is one of them.


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## barcar (Jun 16, 2011)

I borrow knitting books from the library. If my library doesn't have it, my library can borrow it from a nearby library. That saves me money, especially if there is only one pattern in the book that I like. If the libraries don't have the book, then I order the book from amazon.com. The book arrives on my doorstep in just a few days. I spend the time waiting for the book to arrive by catching up on some of my stash projects. I shop for yarn on line which saves me from driving across town.


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## Lrushefsky (Feb 6, 2011)

mopgenorth said:


> I definitely wouldn't pass her threshold again. There are so many other places to get patterns, nice yarn, AND good service.


I would not bother shopping there again. I agree with you. Happy knitting Linda


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## Sorlenna (Feb 17, 2011)

I completely understand her desire to sell her yarn, but as a designer (who often invests in materials from the LYS to create designs that I hope in turn will bring me some return), I would be appalled that anyone would copy my design (if I had not made it free) and hand it out, shorting me for my work, just to make a sale for herself. So there's another perspective.


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## Tennessee.Gal (Mar 11, 2012)

destinyarnshop said:


> I own a yarn shop and feel I need to say something here, and many of you will probably not like my comments, but this is the way a shop owner would see it. First, did the customer order the book by putting a deposit on it, get a receipt and leave the shop a phone number to call when it came in? If not, there was no obligation to hold a copy...although, it would have been ideal to have gotten the info and called, sometimes we owners have memory issues or get too busy to follow through. I know I try my best to please all customers, but sometimes I just forget to leave myself a note about it. Second, a shop makes very little income on pattern sales...we carry them as a resource for our yarns, and rely on those yarn sales to keep us in business. A knitted sample for our shops takes hours and hours to complete and creativity for color choice and pattern interpretation. Lately, I have had customers with pen and paper come in, ask about names of patterns, yarns and construction advice, then write it all down and announce to me that they can get it cheaper on line. I struggle to remain open for many who use my shop as a viewing area for color and texture and then support online business. We all want to get a deal, but this is the ultimate in offensiveness...what will these people do when there is no one around to fix their mistakes and give them new inspiration. Sorry, but I think you all should try harder to support your LYS...it may cost you a little more, but you get free help and access to quality goods that you don't get with online shopping. How about one purchase out of every five from your LYS? BTW, thank you, mavisb for your support. You are right, you never know the other side of the story. I'll bet you all never consider the theft that befalls the LYS...I have had people steal shop models, yarn, books and patterns, even toilet paper from my bathroom. Please consider this the next time you get upset with your local store. Oh, and also, there is very little money in owning a yarn shop. I do it because I have been taken to the cleaners by my last husband and have a 32 yr old autistic son who lives with me and can't keep a job so I have to support the two of us with my income. We just barely make it, but I worry about our future.
> So, forgive me if I disagree here, and please, all of you, put yourself in the LYS owner's shoes and see how you would feel about losing yarn sales to online companies or sharing your pattern sources with people who walk out with your ideas and buy elsewhere. One thing I will tell you that the other owner did that is NOT alright is to offer to copy anything from a book. Also, her snippy remark was uncalled for and I can only say that maybe she had been through a tough day when lemonygodess got there.


I try and support my LYS, but I have so much stash that I can't justify buying anything else right now. However, the 10-year anniversary sale is next month and if I find a good deal, well.....

It is the only LYS within 50 miles. Others have come and gone. Somehow the owner managed to stay in business during the recession, but the shop has never been a money maker. She works part-time elsewhere. Several of her friends who are expert knitters volunteer at the shop in return for discounts on yarn, but after several years they are dropping off -- some have moved and others are no longer available for one reason or another. She can't afford paid staff.

After the theft of several packages of Addi circulars, the needle display was moved behind the counter.

She had a copyrighted hat pattern, written by herself, that she gave free with the purchase of yarn for the hat. I know for a fact that it has been freely copied and passed around.

I used to spent a lot of time at the shop. Stitch 'n bitch was ongoing, in a small back room. But it got too cliquish. Sort of like going back to high school and sitting at the wrong table in the cafeteria, if you know what I mean. Newcomers to the group were ignored. The very first time I was there, the woman next to me refused to speak to me or even look at me. Now I know I couldn't have offended her since I had never seen her before. I found out later that she was one who felt the stitch 'n bitch group should be "just us." Over time, it got too stressful trying to break into an established group. I only go now when I need Addi's or nicer yarn, and I don't sit at the table anymore.

To make a long story short, don't go back to the shop if you don't want to.

Medicated now and feeling much better.


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## wiremysoul (Dec 4, 2012)

I work at a tiny fibre arts store that carries yarn, the only LYS our small town has. I'm the yarn lady there. I would never begrudge a shop owner wanting to make a sale, I totally feel you there, destinyarnshop. Seriously, LYS are disappearing and we need to support small business all over North America. 

That said, I could never in good conscience withhold information like the title of a pattern from a potential customer in order to prevent her from buying the book elsewhere, and if someone asked me to order a book, I would make a point to take that person's name and number and hold it for her. My Gosh, ordering books is expensive and I want that guaranteed sale! And I could certainly never offer to break copyright to make a yarn sale. These things are common sense IMO. It's just not right to break the rules or be underhanded just because you want the sale. Poor customer service is poor business savvy, period. 

I'm sure there's another side to this story, but given the info we have, I still support the original poster's instinct to not spend money there.


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## mavisb (Apr 18, 2011)

Destinyarnshop There is nothing in what you say should be taken as offensive. I have ordered a pattern for a beanie from my LYS and am still waiting for it. I have the wool but not the pattern. If they can't get it for me I may have to ask one of the girls if I can borrow the pattern and then hand it back to them.


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## BiDDi (Dec 21, 2012)

HandyFamily said:


> The Book Depository: http://www.bookdepository.com/?redirected=true&gclid=CLS2u6yM1LgCFaPHtAodISUAvQ
> They have pretty much every book that is available (not things that are long sold out and can only be found if someone sells their own copy, of course), they are have great custom service and once you have the book you can decide to make another item from it - or the one you liked - and get the yarn from any place you want.


I also have found some wonderful books from The Book Depository. Knitting especially but all sorts including lovely childrens books. Free and prompt postage. The trick will be to find the name of the book. Worth a search in their knitting section.


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## cathy3 (Oct 2, 2011)

Hey "Destin Yarn Shop" Where are you located, I did not know there was a Yarn Shop in 
Destin. FWB resident


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## JudyRett (Oct 21, 2011)

Try Amazon. com for the book you want and definitely look for another LYS!!!!! Good Luck!


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## Marylou12 (Dec 11, 2011)

I have 2 LYS that I support when I can afford it and have never had a problem with either of them. The ladies there have always been supportive and more than helpful. They, many times give me patterns even if I don't purchase any yarn that day, because they know me and know I'll be back at another point to buy something.


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## grandmatimestwo (Mar 30, 2011)

I tell the kids in my class it is often not what you say, but how you say it, that upsets someone. I understand a bad day, fatigue, whatever, but if I get attitude from someone, I am not likely to shop there.


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## janmary (Jun 6, 2013)

I live a 40 min drive from the closest shop and a little more than an hour from my favorite shop. I still love the shop further away the best and when I feel the need to treat myself, off I go. My mother owned a LYS in a quaint community when I was young and I love a friendly yarn shop.
The closer shop is owned by very nice ladies, but they don't follow thru on simple orders. After 3 trips to pick up more of a yarn I purchased there, I gave up and went online. You would think in this day that a small shop would be more customer oriented. Hope you find your pattern soon!


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## Bitsee (Mar 11, 2013)

Keispa said:


> This is how my devious mind works. ..I would wait that month for it be reordered and come in, then I would go in just to see if the book did indeed come in, I would act like I intended to buy it, write down the name , act like I was browsing for yarn to use with the pattern then tell her I think I've changed my mind, and let her know that it is because of the way I was treated by you the last time I was in. You would then have the name of the book and could order it else where. It could very well be a book that is no longer being published and she is just trying to get you to buy yarn there.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: Sounds like my kind of plan. Or perhaps purchase the book elsewhere then take it in to let her know you found it but would not be purchasing yarn from her to make the shawl.


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## oleganny (Oct 14, 2011)

I understand where you are coming from - maybe she was trying to help, but in the wrong way. My last LYS closed several years ago - the lady retired, but her solution, when I had a similar problem, was to loan me her copy of a pattern I admired. That way she broke no copyright rules. What I did when I got it home was not her problem. She would also let us knitters come to her shop to do our knitting, & many of us freely exchanged patterns - by loan & not by copying. It is a fine line we all walk when it comes to published patterns - the designer deserves the credit & profit from their work but in some instances when you actually read the pattern, it is so similar to older patterns that it isn't worth buying when what you already have is so easily adaptable.

hugs
Shirley in Indiana



mavisb said:


> I am sorry, but I disagree with you ladies. I believe this LYS was providing a service by agreeing to photocopy the pattern, albeit copyright, it was just one pattern out of the book and she may have wanted to help Lemon Godess to get some wool that would have looked lovely in that particular shawl.
> 
> I also say there are three sides to the story, your truth, their truth and in the middle the correct truth.
> 
> Sorry if I have upset anyone by disagreeing, but please don't shoot me down for having my own opinion.


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## whitetail (Feb 19, 2011)

Definitely wouldn't go there again.


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## destinyarnshop (Apr 6, 2013)

cathy3 said:


> Hey "Destin Yarn Shop" Where are you located, I did not know there was a Yarn Shop in
> Destin. FWB resident


I am in Miramar Beach, just 3.5 miles east of Bass ProShop, or the mid-bay bridge, on US 98. Look for the Holiday Plaza on the right (south) side, just 2 entrances past Holiday Rd. Go online to www.destinyarn.com for shop hours and other info. Please introduce yourself when you come in, would love to meet you!


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## bonster (Jan 28, 2011)

It is definitely a struggle for small businesses. I owned a local music store for 20 years. I closed about a year ago. I was well-known in the area as the music book expert and serviced many of the local music teachers and their students. People started using me as a "library" and would come in to look through books for an hour and sometimes more. I didn't have a copy machine (yes, it is illegal to photocopy music) and I had people have the nerve to ask if they could buy (or borrow) the book and take it to Kinko's to copy what they want (after all, they didn't want EVERY song in the book) and then return the book for a refund. I had people buy a book on the internet (from somewhere else) and then bring it to my store wanting me to either give them the money they paid someone else or let them exchange it for the book they really wanted.

So please give your local small businesses a break. They are human and struggling in this economy. When I was closing my store the locals (especially teachers) were asking what were they going to do without me. Most teachers were very supportive of me and my store and I know they miss me.


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## destinyarnshop (Apr 6, 2013)

mavisb said:


> Destinyarnshop There is nothing in what you say should be taken as offensive. I have ordered a pattern for a beanie from my LYS and am still waiting for it. I have the wool but not the pattern. If they can't get it for me I may have to ask one of the girls if I can borrow the pattern and then hand it back to them.


What is the name of the pattern? Maybe I can help. Did you give her a deposit? If not, you might also try Ravelry...


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## .79315 (Dec 5, 2012)

lemonygodess said:


> Had an issue with my LYS.Saw a completed item and asked the owner to order the book as it was sold out.Came for it, was told sorry sold out on it and it may be as much as a month before its back in stock.But, if I would buy the yarn for the project she'd copy me the pattern.Not trying to get something free here and felt a little held up. So I told her I'm not prepared to do that.Copyright issue, also what if I don't want to use your yarn?Told her a shawl was cute on the wall, her reply was,"Yeah, everything here is real cute."I was upset by this and DH was so angry.Sorry needed to vent a bit.


Many patterns are in more than one place, book, leaflet, downloadable online. What was the name of the pattern ? Perhaps it can be found elsewhere. If the LYS is copying patterns and handing them out as an incentive to buy yarn, they are breaking copyright laws.


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## mzmom1 (Mar 4, 2011)

The first time or two that I went into my LYS I felt a little out of place, but I kept going back, and now when I go in the ladies all know me and greet me by name and are very helpful. If I had been put off by that first experience I would have done myself a real disservice.


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## Nannyshirl (May 11, 2013)

destinyarnshop said:


> I own a yarn shop and feel I need to say something here, and many of you will probably not like my comments, but this is the way a shop owner would see it. First, did the customer order the book by putting a deposit on it, get a receipt and leave the shop a phone number to call when it came in? If not, there was no obligation to hold a copy...although, it would have been ideal to have gotten the info and called, sometimes we owners have memory issues or get too busy to follow through. I know I try my best to please all customers, but sometimes I just forget to leave myself a note about it. Second, a shop makes very little income on pattern sales...we carry them as a resource for our yarns, and rely on those yarn sales to keep us in business. A knitted sample for our shops takes hours and hours to complete and creativity for color choice and pattern interpretation. Lately, I have had customers with pen and paper come in, ask about names of patterns, yarns and construction advice, then write it all down and announce to me that they can get it cheaper on line. I struggle to remain open for many who use my shop as a viewing area for color and texture and then support online business. We all want to get a deal, but this is the ultimate in offensiveness...what will these people do when there is no one around to fix their mistakes and give them new inspiration. Sorry, but I think you all should try harder to support your LYS...it may cost you a little more, but you get free help and access to quality goods that you don't get with online shopping. How about one purchase out of every five from your LYS? BTW, thank you, mavisb for your support. You are right, you never know the other side of the story. I'll bet you all never consider the theft that befalls the LYS...I have had people steal shop models, yarn, books and patterns, even toilet paper from my bathroom. Please consider this the next time you get upset with your local store. Oh, and also, there is very little money in owning a yarn shop. I do it because I have been taken to the cleaners by my last husband and have a 32 yr old autistic son who lives with me and can't keep a job so I have to support the two of us with my income. We just barely make it, but I worry about our future.
> So, forgive me if I disagree here, and please, all of you, put yourself in the LYS owner's shoes and see how you would feel about losing yarn sales to online companies or sharing your pattern sources with people who walk out with your ideas and buy elsewhere. One thing I will tell you that the other owner did that is NOT alright is to offer to copy anything from a book. Also, her snippy remark was uncalled for and I can only say that maybe she had been through a tough day when lemonygodess got there.


Very well said, I absolutely understand your point of view! Good luck with your store in the future. At the end of the day, attitude is what often cements a persons perception of another. I have to say that the LYS owner's attitude probably didn't help at all, and the illegality of copying a pattern is indisputable. They say that 'customer service' is all about attitude - how right they are!


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## Dsynr (Jun 3, 2011)

I am reminded of the year I worked the Xmas Season at Bloomingdale's. At the end of the training, the instructor, a buyer, said pretty much this:
"Customers will come onto the selling floor. They may not always be presentable; they may not always be nice; they may not always buy; and they are certainly not always right. BUT without the customers who come into this store and buy the merchandise, Bloomingdale's would not exist, and neither would your jobs. Treat every customer with courtesy and respect."
'Nuff said?


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## debsu (Jul 26, 2011)

As another reader stated, try Amazon, they probably have the book. I would mark that shop off my list. I agree with destinyarnshop, I WILL support my LYS, but I have encountered the occasional shop that does NOT support all of their patrons. Those I will avoid like the plague. Destinyarnshop, you seem to be honest, sadly, not all LYS owners are!


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## amberdragon (Dec 12, 2011)

my LYS is the "pit", always rude,just sit and knit when you have questions and never never have enough yarn to finish a simple scarf or sweater and carry only the most expensive yarns...need i say more....
However my local cross stitch shop is the best...i can always find what i need (even though their patterns are a little costly)....a few week ago i went in for some cross stitch fabric and found i had left my money pouch at home, and only had #12.00 of the total cost...now wait until you hear this...
the owner let me have in with only a verbal promise to come in and pay the remaining $9.00, which of course i did...
how is that for service, and i don't even shop there alot.


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## Bombshellknits (Feb 2, 2013)

So, here's my spin on it. First, there is never reason to offer a copy of a copyrighted pattern. That's wrong. My husband and I have a small construction business, with only one employee. All three of us go out of our way for the customer. ALWAYS. IF the book was ordered and an agreement made that it would be held, it should have been. If not, of course an apology is in order. I cannot BELIEVE that this book is so freaking cool it will take another MONTH for more. That smells like BS to me. I think the next words out of the shop owners mouth SHOULD have been, "I'm so sorry. How can I fix this?" Please, SHE knows the name of the book, and isn't sharing. You want the whole damn book, why won't she tell you? It's not like you are only buying one pattern. You are buying the ENTIRE book! She actually can't go and buy ONE book for you, for customer relations? 

Someone mentioned telling this lady you would no longer be her customer. Do you really think she cares? Heck, she forgot about you before the door closed behind you. She doesn't care if you never come back. She had her chance to make things right. She didn't. 

I am EXTREMELY hard headed and a little hotheaded. I swear to you I would learn to live without that pattern. And seriously, be patient, that book may come to you. You never know how the universe works. 

Lastly, I can't believe that she replied that everything was cute in the store when you gave her a compliment. 

If you want to be underhanded and think you MUST have that pattern, send a friend in to ask about it. I personally would never set foot in that store again, or give Miss Congeniality another penny. 

The one LYS I used to frequent was unfriendly. They never greeted you when walked in. But, the owner and her buds stared at you like Children of the freakin Corn or something. ( I know, that wasn't nice, but seriously deer in the headlights stuff) No" thank you" after a purchase either. But, it's was the only game in town. Hubby was appalled at the way they operated, too. I got fed up one day and quit going. I have NEVER gone back. We now have another LYS, closer to my home. This is a dream come true! Just be patient.


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## naztuna (Oct 9, 2012)

Sorry to hear of your experience.

I hope this doesn't sound dumb, but what does LYS mean? I'm fairly new to KP.


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## laurie4 (Nov 3, 2011)

is this the first time you get this treatment i would go back and see i was not treated well one time and went back and had very different treatment guess they were having a bad time in there very happy i kept going


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## Bombshellknits (Feb 2, 2013)

One more thing, kind of off topic. My jewelry store is a small business. No chain stores for me. This man appreciates me so much. He hugs me when I get there. If I like something he offers for me to take it home and think about and pay him later. He even asked if I would like to borrow any pieces to wear for my daughter's wedding. Since it is a destination wedding I declined. If it were local, I just may have. That is how you build customer rapport!!


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## tvarnas (Apr 18, 2013)

Tennessee.Gal said:


> I try and support my LYS, but I have so much stash that I can't justify buying anything else right now. However, the 10-year anniversary sale is next month and if I find a good deal, well.....
> 
> It is the only LYS within 50 miles. Others have come and gone. Somehow the owner managed to stay in business during the recession, but the shop has never been a money maker.  She works part-time elsewhere. Several of her friends who are expert knitters volunteer at the shop in return for discounts on yarn, but after several years they are dropping off -- some have moved and others are no longer available for one reason or another. She can't afford paid staff.
> 
> ...


Haven't seen you for awhile, Tennessee Gal. Hope nothing serious was wrong and glad to hear you are better.


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## Bombshellknits (Feb 2, 2013)

naztuna said:


> Sorry to hear of your experience.
> 
> I hope this doesn't sound dumb, but what does LYS mean? I'm fairly new to KP.


It doesn't sound dumb, it means Local Yarn Store. Like a privately owned little yarn shop.


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## bonster (Jan 28, 2011)

What does the "sl" on some of the listed posts mean?


Bombshellknits said:


> It doesn't sound dumb, it means Local Yarn Store. Like a privately owned little yarn shop.


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## tvarnas (Apr 18, 2013)

bonster said:


> What does the "sl" on some of the listed posts mean?


Scottishlass. She is a frequent poster.


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## mjo (Jul 21, 2012)

Reading this has struck a nerve for me. I am on a fixed income but I still like to shop at the LYS near me. I don't order online unless it is something I can't buy locally. The local shop is owned by two women it took me a while to get to know them but eventually one of them would greet me and be friendly each time I went in. The other one .....well lets just say I often left the shop wondering if I had bad Bo or or something that offended her. I can only think of one time I ever went in there and left without buying something - so I think I am a good customer. Granted often at least part of my purchase may be yarn that is on sale. 
I did discover that wasn't just me though - I was in the store and another customer finished her transaction and left and the owner turned to her employee and said something nasty - I was appalled and left shortly after. I thought about it and talked to my family they encouraged me not to go to the store because I was never happy afterwards. 
But I didn't give up on the store I instead tried to only shop when the one owner wasn't there because I would be sad if the only store near me closed. But there is silver lining in this story. I have noticed that the owner that is nasty has has been noticeable nicer lately I wonder if her partner had a talk with her ; )
Thanks for letting me get this off my chest


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## Bitsee (Mar 11, 2013)

oleganny said:


> I understand where you are coming from - maybe she was trying to help, but in the wrong way. My last LYS closed several years ago - the lady retired, but her solution, when I had a similar problem, was to loan me her copy of a pattern I admired. That way she broke no copyright rules. What I did when I got it home was not her problem. She would also let us knitters come to her shop to do our knitting, & many of us freely exchanged patterns - by loan & not by copying. It is a fine line we all walk when it comes to published patterns - the designer deserves the credit & profit from their work but in some instances when you actually read the pattern, it is so similar to older patterns that it isn't worth buying when what you already have is so easily adaptable.
> hugs
> Shirley in Indiana


I agree. I don't very often purchase patterns anymore as I have enough knowledge, experience and purchased patterns (over 50 years worth) under my belt. I also like a good adventure so I have not followed the pattern word-for-word in many years and in recent years started making my own designs. When you come down to it, most patterns are basic whether they be shawls, sweaters, hats, socks, etc. I just depends how you want to embellish the basic pattern with different st patterns, adding shaping, multi colors etc. I encourage everyone to go for it. :lol:


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## bonster (Jan 28, 2011)

After some of the posts in the "index" it says . . . . . . sl. It doesn't refer to a person.


tvarnas said:


> Scottishlass. She is a frequent poster.


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## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

Keispa said:


> This is how my devious mind works. Lol..I would wait that month for it be reordered and come in, then I would go in just to see if the book did indeed come in, I would act like I intended to buy it, write down the name , act like I was browsing for yarn to use with the pattern then tell her I think I've changed my mind, and let her know that it is because of the way I was treated by you the last time I was in. You would then have the name of the book and could order it else where. It could very well be a book that is no longer being published and she is just trying to get you to buy yarn there.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## henhouse2011 (Feb 20, 2011)

mavisb said:


> I am sorry, but I disagree with you ladies. I believe this LYS was providing a service by agreeing to photocopy the pattern, albeit copyright, it was just one pattern out of the book and she may have wanted to help Lemon Godess to get some wool that would have looked lovely in that particular shawl.
> 
> I also say there are three sides to the story, your truth, their truth and in the middle the correct truth.
> 
> Sorry if I have upset anyone by disagreeing, but please don't shoot me down for having my own opinion.


You are absolutely correct. I don't get if Lemony thinks store should have copied pattern for her or is she mad because book wasn't in immediately. Either way she is wrong. Store can't copy for anyone who wants it. Store has no control over shipping. And furthermore, don't expect store to help you with pattern if you did not purchase her yarn. There is a reason it is cheaper at Walmart. 
Your library may be able to find the book for you and then you can copy the pattern. Also try Ravelry


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## jadancey (May 13, 2011)

Keispa said:


> This is how my devious mind works. Lol..I would wait that month for it be reordered and come in, then I would go in just to see if the book did indeed come in, I would act like I intended to buy it, write down the name , act like I was browsing for yarn to use with the pattern then tell her I think I've changed my mind, and let her know that it is because of the way I was treated by you the last time I was in. You would then have the name of the book and could order it else where. It could very well be a book that is no longer being published and she is just trying to get you to buy yarn there.


Love your reply, your mind works just like mine, lol.


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## dotdot (Feb 6, 2012)

Amazon for me, too / check their used books link


Jillyrich said:


> Try amazon for the book it will probably be cheaper.


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## GQuest (Apr 11, 2013)

Could the customer have been a little more direct in her dealings with the LYS in question to fulfill her need or request? Perhaps, I would have done so. If a LYS wants to make a sale and bring the customer back again I believe they would do what they can within reason to make the sale. 

Interesting perspective from one LYS owner that make sense in today's economy. If needing to make ends meet, did you know if a woman is divorced and does not remarry that she can collect on her ex's Social Security without detriment to his SS?? Little known fact that is not publicized.


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## bonster (Jan 28, 2011)

I think the store owner offered to copy the pattern.


henhouse2011 said:


> You are absolutely correct. I don't get if Lemony thinks store should have copied pattern for her or is she mad because book wasn't in immediately. Either way she is wrong. Store can't copy for anyone who wants it. Store has no control over shipping. And furthermore, don't expect store to help you with pattern if you did not purchase her yarn. There is a reason it is cheaper at Walmart.
> Your library may be able to find the book for you and then you can copy the pattern. Also try Ravelry


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Virtually ALL brick and mortar, retailers have lost business to on-line retailers. This is not unique to yarn shops. Most people today HAVE to do comparison shopping. Rarely do I go into a yarn shop looking for an exact project or product in mind. My yarn shop purchases are usually based on how the merchandise is displayed, what is displayed and the courtesy of the the sales staff. I also utilize on line retailers. Many small shops now offer on line sales through their own websites. A good idea, maximize sales by offering customers the ability to shop at home.

Photocopying a pattern out of a book, or other copyrighted material is a copyright violation. This tells me more about the integrity of the shop owner than anything else. 

Of course she wants you to purchase yarns from her shop, just as any shop owner would want you to purchase their wares. You are free to purchase from the retailer of your choice though.

What I see here is a shop owner who "botched" a sale though. Had she reserved a copy of this book for the poster, when the order came in, she would have had a satisfied customer who would have come back for future purchases. Instead, she lost the sale of the book and future purchases from this customer.


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## Catarry (Apr 10, 2012)

mavisb said:


> I am sorry, but I disagree with you ladies. I believe this LYS was providing a service by agreeing to photocopy the pattern, albeit copyright, it was just one pattern out of the book and she may have wanted to help Lemon Godess to get some wool that would have looked lovely in that particular shawl.
> 
> I also say there are three sides to the story, your truth, their truth and in the middle the correct truth.
> 
> Sorry if I have upset anyone by disagreeing, but please don't shoot me down for having my own opinion.


 Having an opinion is one thing, committing a legal crime and moral offense is another.

If you wouldn't shoplift the book to get the pattern, then you shouldn't accept an unauthorized copy.


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## Catarry (Apr 10, 2012)

bonster said:


> After some of the posts in the "index" it says . . . . . . sl. It doesn't refer to a person.


 Hey, Bonster, check it out....open a posting marked 'sl' and see if it isn't Scottishlass. She marks her posts in the topic line so folks know what they're opening.


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## Ma Kitty (Mar 15, 2013)

I believe a lot of locally owned businesses are struggling to keep going due to online shopping. Often people use their store as a showcase and check out a product for quality, colour, size, feel etc. Then they order it online. I predict that some day we will all be shopping in our pyjamas. We will be sad and wonder why it happened. Online doesn't always have staff or overhead to pay for. Your LYS that didn't save you a copy of the book is probably hanging on by her fingernails and is fed up. Treating you as she did was not right but going back in and copying down the pattern name and saying you'll buy the pattern and yarn elsewhere won't make you feel better. Be kind, spend your money where you want but never make a person feel bad on purpose. It won't make you feel any better.


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## Kathie (Mar 29, 2011)

destinyarnshop said:


> I own a yarn shop and feel I need to say something here, and many of you will probably not like my comments, but this is the way a shop owner would see it. First, did the customer order the book by putting a deposit on it, get a receipt and leave the shop a phone number to call when it came in? If not, there was no obligation to hold a copy...although, it would have been ideal to have gotten the info and called, sometimes we owners have memory issues or get too busy to follow through. I know I try my best to please all customers, but sometimes I just forget to leave myself a note about it. Second, a shop makes very little income on pattern sales...we carry them as a resource for our yarns, and rely on those yarn sales to keep us in business. A knitted sample for our shops takes hours and hours to complete and creativity for color choice and pattern interpretation. Lately, I have had customers with pen and paper come in, ask about names of patterns, yarns and construction advice, then write it all down and announce to me that they can get it cheaper on line. I struggle to remain open for many who use my shop as a viewing area for color and texture and then support online business. We all want to get a deal, but this is the ultimate in offensiveness...what will these people do when there is no one around to fix their mistakes and give them new inspiration. Sorry, but I think you all should try harder to support your LYS...it may cost you a little more, but you get free help and access to quality goods that you don't get with online shopping. How about one purchase out of every five from your LYS? BTW, thank you, mavisb for your support. You are right, you never know the other side of the story. I'll bet you all never consider the theft that befalls the LYS...I have had people steal shop models, yarn, books and patterns, even toilet paper from my bathroom. Please consider this the next time you get upset with your local store. Oh, and also, there is very little money in owning a yarn shop. I do it because I have been taken to the cleaners by my last husband and have a 32 yr old autistic son who lives with me and can't keep a job so I have to support the two of us with my income. We just barely make it, but I worry about our future.
> So, forgive me if I disagree here, and please, all of you, put yourself in the LYS owner's shoes and see how you would feel about losing yarn sales to online companies or sharing your pattern sources with people who walk out with your ideas and buy elsewhere. One thing I will tell you that the other owner did that is NOT alright is to offer to copy anything from a book. Also, her snippy remark was uncalled for and I can only say that maybe she had been through a tough day when lemonygodess got there.


This is completely reasonable and explains the problems local yarn shops are having. We have gone from three shops to one in our local area. The problem I have with what happened is the attitude of the shop keeper and the fact she would make copies of the pattern desired. It's anybody's guess if there was an understanding about her keeping a copy to sell to this person but I wouldn't shop at a place where the attitude was like this regardless.


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## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

Hear! Hear! Service is provided with a product in a yarn shop. And it is not a pattern shop. 
If you special order something, it is as incumbent on you as it is on the shop "personnel " (not just owner) to follow through. 
In addition, consider the fact that you may have been the last in a long line of people who wanted something specific but weren't buying yarn. The remark about everything being pretty is kind of a giveaway on the kind of day the clerk had been having, if you ask me.


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## calmlake (May 16, 2011)

Lemonygoddess, I hope you will describe the shawl to the group here. Maybe others here are making it right now. Is there a fringe, lacey texture, triangle shape, rectangular shape? Is it knitted, crocheted? Does it have sleeves, self-collar, tab, fob or button on the front? Is the yarn fluffy, thick, thick/thin, fine, variegated, striated? What brands of yarn does she sell? I hope you find where to buy that book today, just ask here and all the best. :thumbup:


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## bonster (Jan 28, 2011)

OH. I thought it was short of something like LYS, DH and all that. Thanks.


Catarry said:


> Hey, Bonster, check it out....open a posting marked 'sl' and see if it isn't Scottishlass. She marks her posts in the topic line so folks know what they're opening.


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## Munchn (Mar 3, 2013)

WOW! I'd find another shop. I feel that you could find the book elsewhere too.

I am in favor of supporting locals but when the attitude is like this------- :thumbdown:


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Many of the on-line retailers are actually former owners of brick and mortar locations. There's one in my area, that WAS a regular yarn shop. Due to rising overhead they closed the shop and took their shop on-line, running it out of their home. 

Look at WEBS, they are a brick and mortar business that also does a lively on-line business.

Face it, most shops cannot carry every pattern, book and yarn. While I love to support the LYS's in my area, I also order on line. My favorite shop is a real joy. I found a pattern in a book that I wanted but wasn't interested in the other patterns in the book...the owner was able to point me to the designers website where I could purchase that single pattern as a download. Yes she lost t he sale of the book but she also gained t he sale of the yarn needed to knit it! A savvy shop owner who knows how to utilize the internet to maximize her sales! She even has a computer in her shop that she allows customers to log onto to check yardages for patterns that are available on line! 

Retailing is a whole new ball game today!


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## GrannyGoode (Oct 9, 2011)

Keispa said:


> This is how my devious mind works. Lol..I would wait that month for it be reordered and come in, then I would go in just to see if the book did indeed come in, I would act like I intended to buy it, write down the name , act like I was browsing for yarn to use with the pattern then tell her I think I've changed my mind, and let her know that it is because of the way I was treated by you the last time I was in. You would then have the name of the book and could order it else where. It could very well be a book that is no longer being published and she is just trying to get you to buy yarn there.


*THAT'S NOT BEING DEVIOUS. THAT'S USING GOOD, COMMON SENSE.*


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## Siouxiq (Aug 26, 2011)

Thank you for being concerned about the copyright problem. She was wrong to even offer to copy the pattern for you. Kudos to you!


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## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

Usually, when customers request a certain item ordered, the LYS will notify that customer and make sure they save a copy back for them. You LYS was amiss on this. I've never had that problem with my LYS, but, if I did, I don't think I would trade with them anymore. I would, also, tell them so and the reason.


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## Ann DeGray (May 11, 2011)

Keispa said:


> This is how my devious mind works. Lol..I would wait that month for it be reordered and come in, then I would go in just to see if the book did indeed come in, I would act like I intended to buy it, write down the name , act like I was browsing for yarn to use with the pattern then tell her I think I've changed my mind, and let her know that it is because of the way I was treated by you the last time I was in. You would then have the name of the book and could order it else where. It could very well be a book that is no longer being published and she is just trying to get you to buy yarn there.


I can understand the frustration. I would not go back to the shop.

But to do as you advise, Keispa, requires a lot of time, effort and energy. Is it really worth that just to get in the "last word"?

I guess maybe I'm lazy but I'd rather spend the time, effort and energy knitting!

You're never gonna change that woman. Why give her a reason to tell a good story....about you?


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## gina (Jan 18, 2011)

lemonygodess said:


> Had an issue with my LYS.Saw a completed item and asked the owner to order the book as it was sold out.Came for it, was told sorry sold out on it and it may be as much as a month before its back in stock.But, if I would buy the yarn for the project she'd copy me the pattern.Not trying to get something free here and felt a little held up. So I told her I'm not prepared to do that.Copyright issue, also what if I don't want to use your yarn?Told her a shawl was cute on the wall, her reply was,"Yeah, everything here is real cute."I was upset by this and DH was so angry.Sorry needed to vent a bit.


I honestly don't see what was offensive about the owner's last comment. She was talking up her items. She's there to make sales, and probably would have offered you help with the pattern.

I think it was nice of her to offer the copy to get a head start on it, while waiting for the reorder.


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## RavinRed (Apr 18, 2011)

lemonygodess said:


> Had an issue with my LYS.Saw a completed item and asked the owner to order the book as it was sold out.Came for it, was told sorry sold out on it and it may be as much as a month before its back in stock.But, if I would buy the yarn for the project she'd copy me the pattern.Not trying to get something free here and felt a little held up. So I told her I'm not prepared to do that.Copyright issue, also what if I don't want to use your yarn?Told her a shawl was cute on the wall, her reply was,"Yeah, everything here is real cute."I was upset by this and DH was so angry.Sorry needed to vent a bit.


this is when you vote with your feet. Look online I am sure you can find the book elsewhere.


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## knitcrochetlover (Feb 1, 2011)

Mercygirl76 said:


> I hope you got the name of the pattern and book it was sold in. Perhaps you could order it online or through another LYS. Like someone else said, I wouldn't go to that LYS again!


I wouldn't go back either. If I have the name of the book I would do a search and order it online, then use the color and yarn I want.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

mavisb said:


> I am sorry, but I disagree with you ladies. I believe this LYS was providing a service by agreeing to photocopy the pattern, albeit copyright, it was just one pattern out of the book and she may have wanted to help Lemon Godess to get some wool that would have looked lovely in that particular shawl.
> 
> I also say there are three sides to the story, your truth, their truth and in the middle the correct truth.
> 
> Sorry if I have upset anyone by disagreeing, but please don't shoot me down for having my own opinion.


I don't think that violating copyright laws is any kind of truth. It would be cheating to get a yarn sale, and I wouldn't want to do business with anyone that did that; who knows what other forms of cheating she would indulge in? The truth is the truth, I don't think it comes in "types."


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## knitcrochetlover (Feb 1, 2011)

gina said:


> I honestly don't see what was offensive about the owner's last comment. She was talking up her items. She's there to make sales, and probably would have offered you help with the pattern.
> 
> I think it was nice of her to offer the copy to get a head start on it, while waiting for the reorder.


While it was a nice offer, copyright comes before anything. What should have been said is when the book comes in I will call you and hold a copy for you.


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## Pauline4 (Jul 4, 2013)

If you had paid for book when you ordered than you would have in hand now.


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## CBCAROL (Apr 12, 2011)

naztuna said:


> Sorry to hear of your experience.
> 
> I hope this doesn't sound dumb, but what does LYS mean? I'm fairly new to KP.


LYS = Local Yarn Shop


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

destinyarnshop said:


> I own a yarn shop and feel I need to say something here, and many of you will probably not like my comments, but this is the way a shop owner would see it. First, did the customer order the book by putting a deposit on it, get a receipt and leave the shop a phone number to call when it came in? If not, there was no obligation to hold a copy...although, it would have been ideal to have gotten the info and called, sometimes we owners have memory issues or get too busy to follow through. I know I try my best to please all customers, but sometimes I just forget to leave myself a note about it. Second, a shop makes very little income on pattern sales...we carry them as a resource for our yarns, and rely on those yarn sales to keep us in business. A knitted sample for our shops takes hours and hours to complete and creativity for color choice and pattern interpretation. Lately, I have had customers with pen and paper come in, ask about names of patterns, yarns and construction advice, then write it all down and announce to me that they can get it cheaper on line. I struggle to remain open for many who use my shop as a viewing area for color and texture and then support online business. We all want to get a deal, but this is the ultimate in offensiveness...what will these people do when there is no one around to fix their mistakes and give them new inspiration. Sorry, but I think you all should try harder to support your LYS...it may cost you a little more, but you get free help and access to quality goods that you don't get with online shopping. How about one purchase out of every five from your LYS? BTW, thank you, mavisb for your support. You are right, you never know the other side of the story. I'll bet you all never consider the theft that befalls the LYS...I have had people steal shop models, yarn, books and patterns, even toilet paper from my bathroom. Please consider this the next time you get upset with your local store. Oh, and also, there is very little money in owning a yarn shop. I do it because I have been taken to the cleaners by my last husband and have a 32 yr old autistic son who lives with me and can't keep a job so I have to support the two of us with my income. We just barely make it, but I worry about our future.
> So, forgive me if I disagree here, and please, all of you, put yourself in the LYS owner's shoes and see how you would feel about losing yarn sales to online companies or sharing your pattern sources with people who walk out with your ideas and buy elsewhere. One thing I will tell you that the other owner did that is NOT alright is to offer to copy anything from a book. Also, her snippy remark was uncalled for and I can only say that maybe she had been through a tough day when lemonygodess got there.


While I understand all the difficulties encountered by LYS owners, I have to say that if the owner can't take the heat, she should get out of the business. Reacting to a tough day by taking it out on a customer is counterproductive in every possible way, and there really is no justification for her behavior.


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## anetdeer (Jul 16, 2012)

I think this is a good example of: if you do something nice people will tell 5 friends...but if you do something not nice they tell 10 people who tell 10 people etc. 

That being said...the owner was wrong on all accounts...You may not have bought the yarn there then...but you may gave gone back when making something special. Now you probably will never go back. 

I spend a LOT of money at a couple of LYSs, the closest 50 mins away...one I won't go back to because if how I was treated...another I'll have to see. There are 3 that I tell everyone about...the owners are wonderful...no...the owners are WONDERFUL!


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## OccasionallyKnotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Another shameless plug for one of my favorite causes- and feeding my inner frugal-

Www.betterworldbooks.com

The prices are awesome, shipping is usually free (or a few cents), and they raise funds for literacy and libraries. I paid $14 for an out of print book that was $47 on amazon. Shipping was $.07- because I donated for a carbonless footprint. As of a few seconds ago, they have raised $14.9 million and it's rising by the moment.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Pauline4 said:


> If you had paid for book when you ordered than you would have in hand now.


Actually, I did exactly that when I asked a LYS in a neighboring community to order a pattern book for me. She did order it, but she also sold it to someone else. When I called to see whether it had arrived yet, I wasn't happy about what she had done. She said she couldn't remember which customer had ordered it. Not a good way to do business. I asked her to reorder it for me since she had my money, which she did, but it took over four months from beginning to end to get the book. No, I don't drive over there to do business any more. I get what I want online.


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## Ronie (Jan 21, 2011)

destinyarnshop

I want to thank you for this informative insite to the life of a LYS owner... I purchased some yarn at mine this last week.. its a bit more spendy than I would like to pay.. but!!!! when I looked it up on line so I could send a email to a friend and I wanted to share what I got I saw she only got .50 cents per skein. She carry's high level yarns and lower ones to please us all... her needles a re all Clover or Knitters Pride.. I love that and she goes out of her way to have the latest accessory's available.. that being said to strictly shop there is very hard on my low income.. between my husband and I there is little 'Hobby' money so I have to be very frugal.. I do go in there and I do enjoy going in there and I also know that I will always spend some money I just don't always spend a lot...


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## ltyler65 (Aug 14, 2012)

I agree you have the right to disagree BUT Lemony said she was told the shop owner had ordered the book again, and as already been pointed out, she should have had first chance at a copy not show up and be told it was sold out AGAIN. The next no-no was the owner offering to copy the pattern if Lemony ordered the yarn from her. IMHO I don't think the book was ever reordered and I would not shop there again. Happy knitting


mavisb said:


> I am sorry, but I disagree with you ladies. I believe this LYS was providing a service by agreeing to photocopy the pattern, albeit copyright, it was just one pattern out of the book and she may have wanted to help Lemon Godess to get some wool that would have looked lovely in that particular shawl.
> 
> I also say there are three sides to the story, your truth, their truth and in the middle the correct truth.
> 
> Sorry if I have upset anyone by disagreeing, but please don't shoot me down for having my own opinion.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

PiggiesMom, the person who posted this thread doesn't know the name of the book!


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## ltyler65 (Aug 14, 2012)

Love the way your mind works.LOL


Keispa said:


> This is how my devious mind works. Lol..I would wait that month for it be reordered and come in, then I would go in just to see if the book did indeed come in, I would act like I intended to buy it, write down the name , act like I was browsing for yarn to use with the pattern then tell her I think I've changed my mind, and let her know that it is because of the way I was treated by you the last time I was in. You would then have the name of the book and could order it else where. It could very well be a book that is no longer being published and she is just trying to get you to buy yarn there.


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## linzers (May 17, 2012)

destinyarnshop said:


> I own a yarn shop and feel I need to say something here, and many of you will probably not like my comments, but this is the way a shop owner would see it. First, did the customer order the book by putting a deposit on it, get a receipt and leave the shop a phone number to call when it came in? If not, there was no obligation to hold a copy...although, it would have been ideal to have gotten the info and called, sometimes we owners have memory issues or get too busy to follow through. I know I try my best to please all customers, but sometimes I just forget to leave myself a note about it. Second, a shop makes very little income on pattern sales...we carry them as a resource for our yarns, and rely on those yarn sales to keep us in business. A knitted sample for our shops takes hours and hours to complete and creativity for color choice and pattern interpretation. Lately, I have had customers with pen and paper come in, ask about names of patterns, yarns and construction advice, then write it all down and announce to me that they can get it cheaper on line. I struggle to remain open for many who use my shop as a viewing area for color and texture and then support online business. We all want to get a deal, but this is the ultimate in offensiveness...what will these people do when there is no one around to fix their mistakes and give them new inspiration. Sorry, but I think you all should try harder to support your LYS...it may cost you a little more, but you get free help and access to quality goods that you don't get with online shopping. How about one purchase out of every five from your LYS? BTW, thank you, mavisb for your support. You are right, you never know the other side of the story. I'll bet you all never consider the theft that befalls the LYS...I have had people steal shop models, yarn, books and patterns, even toilet paper from my bathroom. Please consider this the next time you get upset with your local store. Oh, and also, there is very little money in owning a yarn shop. I do it because I have been taken to the cleaners by my last husband and have a 32 yr old autistic son who lives with me and can't keep a job so I have to support the two of us with my income. We just barely make it, but I worry about our future.
> So, forgive me if I disagree here, and please, all of you, put yourself in the LYS owner's shoes and see how you would feel about losing yarn sales to online companies or sharing your pattern sources with people who walk out with your ideas and buy elsewhere. One thing I will tell you that the other owner did that is NOT alright is to offer to copy anything from a book. Also, her snippy remark was uncalled for and I can only say that maybe she had been through a tough day when lemonygodess got there.


I didn't read through all the pages of responses yet. I will later when I have more time. I just couldn't help responding to this. I think LYS would be doing themselves and their customers a huge service if they didn't think of it as " LYS vs. the internet". Bring your laptop or computer to work, encourage customers to browse Ravelry or Knitty or whatever. Let them buy a pattern off the internet in your store. You said there is very little profit to be made from selling patterns. I think the average customer would appreciate the support. When you show them the "perfect" yarn and the perfect needles ( from your inventory) for this pattern, they will buy the yarn from you and be so very grateful for the thoughtful customer service. Also when a customer walks into your store and falls in love with a special yarn, have some pattern ideas from Ravelry to refer them to. Neither customer nor owner enjoys subterfuge, pretending that the internet isn't a preferred source for patterns. I hope LYS owners are not offended by this. I am offering another possible perspective that might help keep up with our changing world. I am always so sorry when I see LYS go out of business. I am horrified by your reports of theft. I only wish you well.


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## K2P2 knitter (Jan 31, 2013)

I can see both sides of this picture. I live in a small rural town of approximately 980 people. We have a small LYS that is only open 4 days per week (Wednesday through half a day on Saturday). I really try to purchase yarn there however she only carries arylic yarn but will order yarn for you from any vendor she has an account with. She has ordered yarn several times for me however I feel bad because she has to order the yarn by the bag from her vendors and I may only need 3 skeins which leaves her with 3 skeins that she has a problem selling. The owner also has a problem with customers requesting she special order either yarn or needles then never come to pick the item up. She doesn't require a deposit up front so she is stuck with the merchandise. The next concern I have is the owner does not knit she only crochets. She does have one employee who knits however the employee doesn't work every day so if you need help with your knitting you sometimes need to wait until the employee is scheduled to work which might be as long as 3 days. The owner and the employee are both very nice and more than willing to accomodate their customers. There are times when I really don't have a choice but to order yarn from either a catalog or on line because I can't get the yarn from my LYS.


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## KnitterNatalie (Feb 20, 2011)

mopgenorth said:


> I definitely wouldn't pass her threshold again. There are so many other places to get patterns, nice yarn, AND good service.


My feelings exactly!! You are the customer; speak with your purchases, and support a different LYS, if possible!!


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## Bucketknitter (Jan 25, 2011)

I think this is a shop that I would scratch off my list!! Hope you have another within a reasonable distance.

Karen


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## momanna (Nov 12, 2011)

lemonygodess said:


> Had an issue with my LYS.Saw a completed item and asked the owner to order the book as it was sold out.Came for it, was told sorry sold out on it and it may be as much as a month before its back in stock.But, if I would buy the yarn for the project she'd copy me the pattern.Not trying to get something free here and felt a little held up. So I told her I'm not prepared to do that.Copyright issue, also what if I don't want to use your yarn?Told her a shawl was cute on the wall, her reply was,"Yeah, everything here is real cute."I was upset by this and DH was so angry.Sorry needed to vent a bit.


Go to Amazon or e-bay for the darn book! How dare the owner offer to copy a copyrighted item!!!!


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## Pmullenix (Apr 9, 2013)

Sounds like the shop owner had no business savy and wasn't following copyright laws and I also would have been upset. That said I would probably have tried to chat with her nicely and explain that I really would love her shop to succeed but that as a customer I felt unappreciated when she wouldn't give me the name of a pattern she doesn't even have for sale and that copyright laws probably prevent her from giving me a copy with the yarn. Many small business owners have no training on how to make customers have a good experience in their shop or in the legal issues they could have. I have watched two yarn shops fail (they were both very good and very helpful) and I really miss having their better selection of yarn. Now the only things I have available are Michaels and Jo-Anns. I would do everything I could to keep them in business even if it costs a little more. If she gets huffy and doesn't listen then at least I would know that I had done everything I could to help the shop stay open and I definitely would not go back. If she listens it might be a win-win for both of us.


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## Pleclerrc (Apr 17, 2011)

mavisb said:


> I am sorry, but I disagree with you ladies. I believe this LYS was providing a service by agreeing to photocopy the pattern, albeit copyright, it was just one pattern out of the book and she may have wanted to help Lemon Godess to get some wool that would have looked lovely in that particular shawl.
> 
> I also say there are three sides to the story, your truth, their truth and in the middle the correct truth.
> 
> Sorry if I have upset anyone by disagreeing, but please don't shoot me down for having my own opinion.


I agree. My LYS often offered to photocopy a pattern from thlast store copy if the book was sold out and the pattern was unavailable at the time yarn was purchased for the pattern. She may have worked out this arrangement with the publisher an/or yarn company so that she wouldn't lose a sale.
Personally, I appreciated this "customer service" that was only provided in the above situation. Who wants to spend lots of time and travel to pick out just the right yarn only to find that the pattern isn't available. Who knows when it may be available making the yarn purchase unwise. I'd take the high road and think the LYS owner was provided a service approved by the pattern maker.


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## Pleclerrc (Apr 17, 2011)

Yes, always support your LYS if you want them to stay in business. You'll reallllly miss them when they close and you don't have anywhere to see colorways and feel yarn textures. Plus the free advice and friendly service can't be beat.


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## smontero237 (Dec 5, 2011)

I had the same issue with a cupcake hat. I did buy some yarn but she was out of the yarn the sample was made of and I never made the hat since the baby I was going to make it for was a boy. I did feel like I was held up and then a little foolish since the pattern was available elsewhere. The LYS had other issues like rudeness and the smell of cigarette smoke in the shop as well as other issues. It has since closed but the owners business practices made me drive 30 minutes to a yarn shop rather than the 5 minutes to hers.


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## Leland Sandy (Aug 24, 2011)

A LYS closed, in my area, which had been open for many years. It was a mess - disorganized, products stuffed in every nook and cranny, and not very clean. New yarn shop opened 2 miles away which is clean, light and well organized - and expensive. My kids gave me a gift certificate for the new shop 2 years ago and I have been there twice for a particular needle I needed and they didn't have it. The next time I go there, if they have what I want, I may return. But my thought is that 3 strikes and I'm out. I will make a point of spending the gift certificate, as I will not be going there again. My expectations of them having what I want/need are minimal.


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## OccasionallyKnotty (Jan 30, 2013)

courier770 said:


> PiggiesMom, the person who posted this thread doesn't know the name of the book!


That is te great thing aboutbetterworld. You can search by topic, keywords, whatever. But, i did say it was shameless promotion for one of my favorite causes: keeping libraries open and helping more people to learn to read.

I can't imagine my life without this amazing skill-i am the cook that I am because I can read recipes. I can knit lace because I can read directions. Shoot, imagine a morning without KP and coffee!

Who knows? Do a search and maybe the pattern is on the cover of the book?

Btw: many of thr books you will find on the site come from mom and pop bookstores and goodwill. Support for LBS!!!


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## jorice47 (Oct 14, 2011)

linzers said:


> I didn't read through all the pages of responses yet. I will later when I have more time. I just couldn't help responding to this. I think LYS would be doing themselves and their customers a huge service if they didn't think of it as " LYS vs. the internet". Bring your laptop or computer to work, encourage customers to browse Ravelry or Knitty or whatever. Let them buy a pattern off the internet in your store. You said there is very little profit to be made from selling patterns. I think the average customer would appreciate the support. When you show them the "perfect" yarn and the perfect needles ( from your inventory) for this pattern, they will buy the yarn from you and be so very grateful for the thoughtful customer service. Also when a customer walks into your store and falls in love with a special yarn, have some pattern ideas from Ravelry to refer them to. Neither customer nor owner enjoys subterfuge, pretending that the internet isn't a preferred source for patterns. I hope LYS owners are not offended by this. I am offering another possible perspective that might help keep up with our changing world. I am always so sorry when I see LYS go out of business. I am horrified by your reports of theft. I only wish you well.


The LYS I used in Duluth, MN told me to buy my patterns on line, she couldn't afford to stock them all! Loved her honesty...she recommended Patternfish.com.


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## JCF (Aug 3, 2012)

lemonygodess said:


> Had an issue with my LYS.Saw a completed item and asked the owner to order the book as it was sold out.Came for it, was told sorry sold out on it and it may be as much as a month before its back in stock.But, if I would buy the yarn for the project she'd copy me the pattern.Not trying to get something free here and felt a little held up. So I told her I'm not prepared to do that.Copyright issue, also what if I don't want to use your yarn?Told her a shawl was cute on the wall, her reply was,"Yeah, everything here is real cute."I was upset by this and DH was so angry.Sorry needed to vent a bit.


Had somewhat the same problem with an LYS on the other side of Richmond. Found some yarn I liked, but when the clerk learned where I lived, she had nothing more to do with me. Thought my cash was green just like everyone else's. No? Needless to say, I haven't been back.


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## misellen (Mar 8, 2013)

destinyarnshop said:


> I own a yarn shop and feel I need to say something here, and many of you will probably not like my comments, but this is the way a shop owner would see it. First, did the customer order the book by putting a deposit on it, get a receipt and leave the shop a phone number to call when it came in? If not, there was no obligation to hold a copy...although, it would have been ideal to have gotten the info and called, sometimes we owners have memory issues or get too busy to follow through. I know I try my best to please all customers, but sometimes I just forget to leave myself a note about it. Second, a shop makes very little income on pattern sales...we carry them as a resource for our yarns, and rely on those yarn sales to keep us in business. A knitted sample for our shops takes hours and hours to complete and creativity for color choice and pattern interpretation. Lately, I have had customers with pen and paper come in, ask about names of patterns, yarns and construction advice, then write it all down and announce to me that they can get it cheaper on line. I struggle to remain open for many who use my shop as a viewing area for color and texture and then support online business. We all want to get a deal, but this is the ultimate in offensiveness...what will these people do when there is no one around to fix their mistakes and give them new inspiration. Sorry, but I think you all should try harder to support your LYS...it may cost you a little more, but you get free help and access to quality goods that you don't get with online shopping. How about one purchase out of every five from your LYS? BTW, thank you, mavisb for your support. You are right, you never know the other side of the story. I'll bet you all never consider the theft that befalls the LYS...I have had people steal shop models, yarn, books and patterns, even toilet paper from my bathroom. Please consider this the next time you get upset with your local store. Oh, and also, there is very little money in owning a yarn shop. I do it because I have been taken to the cleaners by my last husband and have a 32 yr old autistic son who lives with me and can't keep a job so I have to support the two of us with my income. We just barely make it, but I worry about our future.
> So, forgive me if I disagree here, and please, all of you, put yourself in the LYS owner's shoes and see how you would feel about losing yarn sales to online companies or sharing your pattern sources with people who walk out with your ideas and buy elsewhere. One thing I will tell you that the other owner did that is NOT alright is to offer to copy anything from a book. Also, her snippy remark was uncalled for and I can only say that maybe she had been through a tough day when lemonygodess got there.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: I can't afford to buy all of my yarn at my LYS but I do buy some of it there. I don't feel that I have the right to go in and ask for advice without being at least a sometimes paying customer. One out of every five sounds like a fair mix. When I am making a "special" item I prefer to buy from the LYS for the choices, help choosing, and just seeing before I buy.


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## boop0717 (Oct 23, 2012)

I too own a LYS. I found out my clerk was copying book patterns and put an immediate stop to it! I have customers tell me that other LYS owners copy patterns for them and I tell them, sorry, I won't violate copyright. Either buy the book or go elsewhere. I even offer a discount on the book! Also, most people don't know that we usually can't buy 1 book, but have to buy multiple copies of the book. We all the access to free patterns it just does not pay for me to buy multiple copies of some books. So if someone is looking for just one book I suggest Amazon and then I will help them with the yarn purchase and instructions. I bend over backwards to offer great customer service, but still have people come in and tell me yarn is cheaper at Michael's or AC Moore. Of course you aren't getting the same quality yarn that you do in my shop nor is there anyone there to help you when you need it! I offer free sit and knit and have people come in with yarn purchased elsewhere and then they ask for assistance. One customer who always does this told me I make her very happy. My answer was that she could make me very happy by purchasing her yarn from me! I am struggling to keep the doors open and wish that more people would support LYS's. Please don't judge all of us by one miserable experience.


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## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> Actually, I did exactly that when I asked a LYS in a neighboring community to order a pattern book for me. She did order it, but she also sold it to someone else. When I called to see whether it had arrived yet, I wasn't happy about what she had done. She said she couldn't remember which customer had ordered it. Not a good way to do business. I asked her to reorder it for me since she had my money, which she did, but it took over four months from beginning to end to get the book. No, I don't drive over there to do business any more. I get what I want online.


Why didn't she write down your name and phone number at the time that she wrote down the order? That would have been the smart thing to do. She was negligent in that. My LYS always writes down my info every time I order something.
Incidentally, someone had mentioned that Annie's was having a yarn sale. I subscribe to them and they sent me an e-mail this morning with a sale on discontinued Caron yarn colors. I just ordered some sport weight yarn in a light lime green to make a V-neck cardigan for my granddaughter. It was $2.99 per skein.


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## violetta40 (Jan 20, 2011)

Bitsee said:


> I agree. I don't very often purchase patterns anymore as I have enough knowledge, experience and purchased patterns (over 50 years worth) under my belt. I also like a good adventure so I have not followed the pattern word-for-word in many years and in recent years started making my own designs. When you come down to it, most patterns are basic whether they be shawls, sweaters, hats, socks, etc. I just depends how you want to embellish the basic pattern with different st patterns, adding shaping, multi colors etc. I encourage everyone to go for it. :lol:


Good for you! Love your enthusisim. I would so much like to be able to do this. Maybe some day I'll get up the nerve to try it.


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## linzers (May 17, 2012)

as courier 770 wrote:
Face it, most shops cannot carry every pattern, book and yarn. While I love to support the LYS's in my area, I also order on line. My favorite shop is a real joy. I found a pattern in a book that I wanted but wasn't interested in the other patterns in the book...the owner was able to point me to the designers website where I could purchase that single pattern as a download. Yes she lost t he sale of the book but she also gained t he sale of the yarn needed to knit it! A savvy shop owner who knows how to utilize the internet to maximize her sales! She even has a computer in her shop that she allows customers to log onto to check yardages for patterns that are available on line!

My point exactly! So well stated, Courier770.


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## linda6200 (Oct 11, 2011)

destinyarnshop, thank you for your remarks. I cannot afford to purchase much from my LYS -- in fact, have not even been in one of them, but am planning to go as soon as my financial situation allows. My son is currently unemployed, looking desperately for a job (is on a job interview right now, and had one yesterday). He has his own two children to support, plus his new wife has two children and she is not working, so I'm doing all I can to help support them. That said, I so desperately want to go shopping in my LYS but don't want to go in without money to spend. I always feel bad when I come out of a place like that not having bought anything. I did work at Hobby Lobby for several years and I know what you're saying about the theft; that was so depressing and was in great measure a reason for my quitting the job. I was appalled at what people did to get out of there without paying for the merchandise they wanted. I wish you and your son well. My niece has an autistic son who does not speak at all; he's 9 or 10, I think. I've watched her and her husband with him and they have my respect for what they do, as do you. It is not easy, I know.


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## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

JCF said:


> Had somewhat the same problem with an LYS on the other side of Richmond. Found some yarn I liked, but when the clerk learned where I lived, she had nothing more to do with me. Thought my cash was green just like everyone else's. No? Needless to say, I haven't been back.


That is definitely not right! :thumbdown: That kind of behavior in a clerk and, most especially, even in a store owner should not be tolerated. Was that clerk just an employee there or was she the owner? If just an employee, I think I would have complained to the owner. If the owner, I think I may have said something that she would not like.


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## tvarnas (Apr 18, 2013)

bonster said:


> After some of the posts in the "index" it says . . . . . . sl. It doesn't refer to a person.


Yes, but look at the poster. It's her.


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## nhauf001 (Jan 18, 2011)

lemonygodess said:


> Had an issue with my LYS.Saw a completed item and asked the owner to order the book as it was sold out.Came for it, was told sorry sold out on it and it may be as much as a month before its back in stock.But, if I would buy the yarn for the project she'd copy me the pattern.Not trying to get something free here and felt a little held up. So I told her I'm not prepared to do that.Copyright issue, also what if I don't want to use your yarn?Told her a shawl was cute on the wall, her reply was,"Yeah, everything here is real cute."I was upset by this and DH was so angry.Sorry needed to vent a bit.


I hate it when I feel like someone feels they have a captive audience. Maybe you could take a picture with your phone and we can help you look for the pattern (if you even feel like going back).
Sorry you had it happen.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

There seems to be a little discord between shop owners and customers going on here. A great yarn shop is one that recognized customers come from all economic levels and what one customer can afford, another cannot.

I do think it is incredibly rude for customers to tell shop owners they can get yarn cheaper somewhere else! Yes you probably can get some yarns cheaper at chain stores who have large regional warehouses. Their company buys massive numbers of skeins to supply many stores and get a low price...your local yarn shop cannot do that. Furthermore the quality of the yarns cannot be compared.

Copyright violation is a huge problem and there are shops that violate it, as well as individuals. I will NOT do business with a shop that violates copyright, nor will I allow such a shop to carry my patterns. If they are willing to violate the copyright of one designer why would I expect them to respect my copyright? Ethical shop owners will not allow this to go on in their shops.

There are more wonderful yarn shops than there are those who are not! I've lived in many places and visited a whole lot more. The "not so great" experiences I've had, are few and far between. I've even hit a few yarn shops overseas and loved them all.

I've been in shops located in small towns, large cities and a few that were operated out of the owners homes, purchased yarns from small producers that spend a good part of their lives on the road, traveling from one fiber festival to another..and I've delighted in them all!


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## CrochetorKnit (Feb 15, 2013)

destinyarnshop said:


> I own a yarn shop and feel I need to say something here, and many of you will probably not like my comments, but this is the way a shop owner would see it. First, did the customer order the book by putting a deposit on it, get a receipt and leave the shop a phone number to call when it came in? If not, there was no obligation to hold a copy...although, it would have been ideal to have gotten the info and called, sometimes we owners have memory issues or get too busy to follow through. I know I try my best to please all customers, but sometimes I just forget to leave myself a note about it. Second, a shop makes very little income on pattern sales...we carry them as a resource for our yarns, and rely on those yarn sales to keep us in business. A knitted sample for our shops takes hours and hours to complete and creativity for color choice and pattern interpretation. Lately, I have had customers with pen and paper come in, ask about names of patterns, yarns and construction advice, then write it all down and announce to me that they can get it cheaper on line. I struggle to remain open for many who use my shop as a viewing area for color and texture and then support online business. We all want to get a deal, but this is the ultimate in offensiveness...what will these people do when there is no one around to fix their mistakes and give them new inspiration. Sorry, but I think you all should try harder to support your LYS...it may cost you a little more, but you get free help and access to quality goods that you don't get with online shopping. How about one purchase out of every five from your LYS? BTW, thank you, mavisb for your support. You are right, you never know the other side of the story. I'll bet you all never consider the theft that befalls the LYS...I have had people steal shop models, yarn, books and patterns, even toilet paper from my bathroom. Please consider this the next time you get upset with your local store. Oh, and also, there is very little money in owning a yarn shop. I do it because I have been taken to the cleaners by my last husband and have a 32 yr old autistic son who lives with me and can't keep a job so I have to support the two of us with my income. We just barely make it, but I worry about our future.
> So, forgive me if I disagree here, and please, all of you, put yourself in the LYS owner's shoes and see how you would feel about losing yarn sales to online companies or sharing your pattern sources with people who walk out with your ideas and buy elsewhere. One thing I will tell you that the other owner did that is NOT alright is to offer to copy anything from a book. Also, her snippy remark was uncalled for and I can only say that maybe she had been through a tough day when lemonygodess got there.


I agree that perhaps the LYS owner had a bad day but customer service should be her first priority, especially if she expects 'loyal customers' to purchase her books (which they CAN get cheaper elsewhere) and her yarn (ditto) to keep her in business. Also, YOUTUBE and the Visual Knitting/Crocheting books are just as good as a LYS owner's advice (and available 24/7) - so - there shouldn't be such a thing as a "bad day" in a LYS.

However on the other hand, I AM a supporter of my LYS and rarely buy online unless the weather is bad and I can't get out (disabled and don't drive anymore and have to avoid the extremes of hot/cold weather). I also take 'lessons' at the LYS just to socialize with like minded crafters/artists which I don't really 'need' to complete my projects. This DOES include purchasing their yarn for the class and buying the book for the pattern, so,...... I agree with you that people should support the LYS and not just go there for inspiration, help and info re:books/publications, but I don't excuse the LYS for her attitude.

:-o


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## Dusti (Jan 23, 2012)

I tend to be a bit more lenient with shop keepers even if their comments come out a little on the snippy side. I find that after engaging the shop keeper in further discussion that their attitude often softens up. About the copyright business, I couldn't care less about 1 copy. 
The glory days are over; it's really tuff to make a buck these days and even tougher to hold on to the little you do have (if our government has anything to say about it). I feel for people in business. I think they are rather courageous.


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## Montana Gramma (Dec 19, 2012)

Our LYS is a lovely shop but some of the prices are 3x's as much. Wondering if that isn't just taking a bit of an advantage? Having been a store owner in the past for stitchery etc. , not yarn, I sacrificed a product every month to keep people coming in. I cannot sustain high prices for charity knitting.That having been said, was this an employee that should receive extra training on customer service? The shop owner would appreciate knowing as employees are representing them at every encounter. They are her/his face each and every time. Many carry the same product so service is where it is at! I may not be able to afford it, or do not need anything currently,but my friends and relatives can so they get introduced to the shop! And even when I only go for a color fix I am warmly greeted and offered their help should I need it. That prompts a return and maybe a sale.


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## CrochetorKnit (Feb 15, 2013)

boop0717 said:


> I too own a LYS. I found out my clerk was copying book patterns and put an immediate stop to it! I have customers tell me that other LYS owners copy patterns for them and I tell them, sorry, I won't violate copyright. Either buy the book or go elsewhere. I even offer a discount on the book! Also, most people don't know that we usually can't buy 1 book, but have to buy multiple copies of the book. We all the access to free patterns it just does not pay for me to buy multiple copies of some books. So if someone is looking for just one book I suggest Amazon and then I will help them with the yarn purchase and instructions. I bend over backwards to offer great customer service, but still have people come in and tell me yarn is cheaper at Michael's or AC Moore. Of course you aren't getting the same quality yarn that you do in my shop nor is there anyone there to help you when you need it! I offer free sit and knit and have people come in with yarn purchased elsewhere and then they ask for assistance. One customer who always does this told me I make her very happy. My answer was that she could make me very happy by purchasing her yarn from me! I am struggling to keep the doors open and wish that more people would support LYS's. Please don't judge all of us by one miserable experience.


Sounds like you're doing everything right to keep customers happy and be an ethical business woman (?) to boot! I wouldn't be too happy about the woman who purchases her yarn elsewhere and then comes in to your sit and knits for socializing and help! WHAT NERVE!!! I agree that for the most part the quality of the yarn in LYSs is superior to the discount stores - that has been my experience anyway - and your policy regarding book sales and copyright laws is right on target also!

The fact that you offer a discount on book sales is something I don't see in my LYS and a courtesy I would enjoy!The discount (unless substantial and that would put LYSs behind the eight ball so to speak!) would probably be minimal but again, the courtesy afforded to the customer is worthy of praise and support and I would buy my books/patterns there just because of it!

Thanks for being there for "us"! :thumbup:


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Perhaps you care less about one copy but the copyright holder has other thoughts on the matter. It's an indication of the integrity of the person...stealing a "little" is still stealing. There are many shops that offer discounts on books or multiple pattern purchases..these discounts generally cut into their profit margin but they do it as a service to their customers.

No you cannot compare "chain store" yarns to yarn shop yarns but you cannot compare fast food restaurants to steak houses either, they play to different audiences. 

I was a "stay at home mom"...and overdid it...stayed at home from conception until the "baby" graduated College! What I could afford then compared to what I could afford after the divorce was vastly different. Now I afford a different level (have some seniority under my belt).........though I'm glad we do have a variety of price ranges to choose from.


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## Dusti (Jan 23, 2012)

mavisb said:


> I am sorry, but I disagree with you ladies. I believe this LYS was providing a service by agreeing to photocopy the pattern, albeit copyright, it was just one pattern out of the book and she may have wanted to help Lemon Godess to get some wool that would have looked lovely in that particular shawl.
> 
> I also say there are three sides to the story, your truth, their truth and in the middle the correct truth.
> 
> Sorry if I have upset anyone by disagreeing, but please don't shoot me down for having my own opinion.


You need never apologize for your opinion - to each his own! Just sometimes it may offend others. And it IS ok to apologize if your opinion offends but never for expressing it. You simply can't please everybody. It just happens that the ones offended are often the loudest.


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## bonster (Jan 28, 2011)

And people wonder why small store go out of business.


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## Dusti (Jan 23, 2012)

courier770 said:


> Perhaps you care less about one copy but the copyright holder has other thoughts on the matter. It's an indication of the integrity of the person...stealing a "little" is still stealing.


You are certainly entitled to your view on that. I see it as helping another person. That always seems to be where I am at. And I still say I couldn't care less about copying 1 pattern for someone. Another thing, I would never reference the word "stealing" in a response to another kper. I think that says something about the referencer. KGB comes to mind.


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## n ancyrboyle (Jun 23, 2013)

Destinyarnshop - I am not a LYS owner or employee but I agree with you in many respects. The original shop owner from whence came the complaint certainly couls/should have handled it differently and with greater finesse. That having been said, I fully agree that too many people expect all kinds of assistance from the LYS proprieters and then do their financila spending elsewhere. Shame on them !!!!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Yes bonster, small stores cannot compete with the "big boys" and it's a shame that we lump all retailers into one category.

By the way I thought of you not too long ago. I was looking into taking up the Banjo (and in fact have). I was perusing the on line retailers but opted to stop by a little music shop in my area. What a joy! They hooked me up with something in my price range and set me up with lessons from a well known Nashville performer (who lives in my area)..at a great price! FYI, the first time my instructor handed me some sheet music..I fully inspected it to make sure it hadn't been photocopied! It wasn't. Amazing the things we learn from others on this site.


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## tvarnas (Apr 18, 2013)

PiggiesMom said:


> Another shameless plug for one of my favorite causes- and feeding my inner frugal-
> 
> Www.betterworldbooks.com
> 
> The prices are awesome, shipping is usually free (or a few cents), and they raise funds for literacy and libraries. I paid $14 for an out of print book that was $47 on amazon. Shipping was $.07- because I donated for a carbonless footprint. As of a few seconds ago, they have raised $14.9 million and it's rising by the moment.


Thanks, just bookmarked!


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## JanKnit14 (May 28, 2013)

Working in a LYS, I can tell you from experience that certain yarn companies are no longer printing pattern books, yet the LYS may still have the yarn left in their inventory. Not supplying pattern books is not supporting the LYS who is marketing their yarn and in turn the LYS cannot accommodate the customer's request for the book. The yarn companies expect the consumer to log into their website, locate and pay for the pattern, download the pattern and print it! This method completely cuts out the LYS! And...not everyone owns a computer & a printer, not to mention how to operate them. All so the yarn company can increase their bottom line. So please, do not always blame the LYS but rather boycott the yarns that are no longer supported by pattern books.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Dusti, copyright infringement IS stealing. It may not be a big deal to you but you do not make your living from copyrighted works do you? I did for many years and I have copyrighted patterns on the market. "Duplicating and distributing" the copyrighted material of another, without permission/payment, is most certainly stealing. You probably wouldn't like it if someone reached into your wallet and took out a couple of dollars here and there, would you? Copyright holders have bills to pay and families to support.


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## bonster (Jan 28, 2011)

Small music store are a dying breed. The local music teachers will really miss them as well as students and folks needing a "quick repair" on an instrument. Or the kid that lost his music for contest and need it tonight. You also (usually) get an honest answer from a small music store. The "big boys" are working on commission and it gets pretty cut-throat. It's the "after-sale" service that says a lot for the store. I was in business for 20 and would have former students come in to sign up their children for lessons! Sometimes it made me feel old, especially when one of my former students (when he was 6 or 7) come into my store as a sales rep!


courier770 said:


> Yes bonster, small stores cannot compete with the "big boys" and it's a shame that we lump all retailers into one category.
> 
> By the way I thought of you not too long ago. I was looking into taking up the Banjo (and in fact have). I was perusing the on line retailers but opted to stop by a little music shop in my area. What a joy! They hooked me up with something in my price range and set me up with lessons from a well known Nashville performer (who lives in my area)..at a great price! FYI, the first time my instructor handed me some sheet music..I fully inspected it to make sure it hadn't been photocopied! It wasn't. Amazing the things we learn from others on this site.


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## Nannyshirl (May 11, 2013)

naztuna said:


> Sorry to hear of your experience.
> 
> I hope this doesn't sound dumb, but what does LYS mean? I'm fairly new to KP.


I took a guess at Local Yarn Shop - some of the abbreviations I come across on here baffle me too!


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## Nannyshirl (May 11, 2013)

courier770 said:


> Dusti, copyright infringement IS stealing. It may not be a big deal to you but you do not make your living from copyrighted works do you? I did for many years and I have copyrighted patterns on the market. "Duplicating and distributing" the copyrighted material of another, without permission/payment, is most certainly stealing. You probably wouldn't like it if someone reached into your wallet and took out a couple of dollars here and there, would you? Copyright holders have bills to pay and families to support.


I support the concept of stealing re copyright abuse and believe that fundamentally it's wrong; however, can I ask, what's your view on friends knitting from eachother's patterns? Over the years I've done this many times, and friends have borrowed my patterns to knit from. Similarly, reading a book or magazine and passing it to a friend to read when you've finished (and vice versa) do you consider that copyright abuse also. I think what I'm asking is, what's the difference?


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## BarbaraSD (Mar 10, 2011)

Would it be wrong to go in the store and take a picture of the item you want to make and post the picture here and on Ravelry. I'll bet someone will recognize the pattern and supply you with its name and what pattern book it is in. I know whenever I am looking for something and can't find it, it makes my quest even more determined. Good luck.


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## ForgetfulFi (Sep 29, 2012)

Surely you have other projects and yarn to be going on with until your ordered book arrives?
People have to make a living and I would imagine that stocking a LYS must take an awful lot of nerve and crossed fingers hoping that people will like what is on offer
I don't get what you were offended over with her comment. I expect she did have lots of cute things in there, what's the problem?


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

"Lending" or "borrowing" material is a w hole different matter. I've no objection to anyone "lending" or "borrowing" anything they chose to. It's the "duplication and distribution" that is at issue. Here's the difference.

If you lend something to a friend, they return it..if you duplicate it and distribute it you have now given them permission to do the same. So you "covertly" copy a pattern and give it to a friend...he/she copies it a few times and gives it to three friends, who each do the same...pretty soon the copyright holder is out HUNDREDS of copies. That starts to add up, financially, and gets out of control quickly. 

I can lend my neighbor my lawnmower for a quick trim but expect him to return it and not send it all over the neighborhood for free use by people I don't even know!

Copyright is a serious issue though it doesn't seem to be taken seriously by the knitting/crochet community. If I came up behind you at the grocery store and took $2.00 out of your purse, you'd probably call the police right? Well copyright infringement is just like that. "Pirated" copies take $$ out of the copyright holders wallet....food off their table or even worse, out of their children's mouths!

While some have said they see no problem with a shop making a single copy of a pattern out of a book, what happens when the person makes 15 copies of that copy and gives it to 15 other people who each pass it on to just 4 or 5 other people? Now you are talking about real money..money I'm sure you wouldn't want taken out of YOUR wallet!


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## deshka (Apr 6, 2011)

crazy-dutch-lady said:


> Really like your idea !!! With todays economy and the competition of the internet and box stores,,,small business should be extra careful about good customer service !!!!


Yup, this is my thoughts too. I have actually done this sort of thing. It really gets their attention.


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## klrober (Mar 20, 2013)

As a customer I would have asked the LYS to hold the book for me & give them a deposit along with my name & phone number. Most LYS will bend over backwards to give you, the customer, the best possible service & if any of us can support them at least some of the time it would be nice. The big box stores can't even come close to their quality of yarn & our LYS are so willing to help if you have a problem & what box store will do that?? I didn't think the store owner remark was bad either & I know nothing about copy right laws.
I know others who have had problems with their LYS but haven't we all had a problem with the box stores or online?? Lets not forget about those situations either but yet we still shop there, right?


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

You know I've had small shops all over the country order things for me. Generally giving my name and phone number or an email address is all they require...a few required a deposit but if it was something I wanted I was more than willing to pay a % up front. 

I've been on vacation in some pretty far flung places and gotten great customer service and then again I've been in my own city and felt like dirt on the floor (at various retailers, not necessarily yarn shops).

I do think that it matters how a customer approaches a business owner/clerk. I generally walk right up to people and say "Hi, how are you today?"...that sort of sets the tone for the rest of the conversation.

I do remember a shop I wandered into, at a ski resort more than a few years ago...as the clerk was warmly greeting me, I spotted the most amazing hat, turned to her and said "hold that thought I MUST look at this hat"..she hustled right over to my line of sight and put that hat on my head, grabbed a mirror with her free hand and she made a very fast sale that day. A good clerk/owner can "read" a customer. I still LOVE that hat!


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## CrochetorKnit (Feb 15, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> Actually, I did exactly that when I asked a LYS in a neighboring community to order a pattern book for me. She did order it, but she also sold it to someone else. When I called to see whether it had arrived yet, I wasn't happy about what she had done. She said she couldn't remember which customer had ordered it. Not a good way to do business. I asked her to reorder it for me since she had my money, which she did, but it took over four months from beginning to end to get the book. No, I don't drive over there to do business any more. I get what I want online.


Right..... She didn't remember who she had ordered the book for???? Uh huh! What did she think she was holding your money for???


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## CrochetorKnit (Feb 15, 2013)

courier770 said:


> Many of the on-line retailers are actually former owners of brick and mortar locations. There's one in my area, that WAS a regular yarn shop. Due to rising overhead they closed the shop and took their shop on-line, running it out of their home.
> 
> Look at WEBS, they are a brick and mortar business that also does a lively on-line business.
> 
> ...


"Brick and Mortar " location? What's this refer to please?
Thanks!


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## bonster (Jan 28, 2011)

An actual store front rather than internet.


BarbCrochetnKnit said:


> "Brick and Mortar " location? What's this refer to please?
> Thanks!


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## Bombshellknits (Feb 2, 2013)

Are we getting that Lemony doesn't have the name of the book because the store owner also would not give her that? 
And when Lemony said that shawl was cute the shop owner made some comment that said everything in the store was really cute. Where are the words, "Thank You"?

Lemony liked a pattern and wanted the entire book. It was supposed to be ordered for her. When she went back they were sold out again. What is this mythical book? I think Lemony would buy the book all the places suggested, if she knew the name of it!!

And still no excuse for copyright infringement. Remember years ago when some exclusive cookie recipe was being circulated because some moron asked the restaurant for the recipe and they said she could buy it, and it wound up being $300 and she was P.Oed and emailed it? I got a copy. I deleted it. I cook and bake. I do not need someone else's private recipe. That lady circulating that recipe was mean. That is how the place made their money, on these cookies. It's the same as making a copy of the copyrighted pattern....it's wrong. And there absolutely is no reason to do it. 

Last comment: The shop owner may have had a bad day. Ooooh! That's certainly Lemony's fault. Having a bad day at the business you own? Suck it up or stay home! Otherwise, put a smile on your face and treat every customer like a long, lost friend.


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## seemyart (May 31, 2013)

gosh, use the library!! They'll order it if they don't own it. Libraries are a much under used resource.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

"Brick and Mortar" retailers own shops that you can actually walk into, touch and feel the merchandise. Today's retailers must find ways to satisfy customers who need that type of experience while offering the "instant" gratification of on line ordering and overnight delivery option.

Retailing today is a blend of old fashioned good relations and new fangled technology.


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## -MissMillie- (Apr 8, 2013)

I agree with Destin Yarn Shop. If we don't support our lys where will we go for help, inspiration or just a look at what is available? When I pay a little more at the lys I consider it a very small price to pay for the enjoyment and camaraderie I find there!


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## Sorlenna (Feb 17, 2011)

-MissMillie- said:


> I agree with Destin Yarn Shop. If we don't support our lys where will we go for help, inspiration or just a look at what is available? When I pay a little more at the lys I consider it a very small price to pay for the enjoyment and camaraderie I find there!


I don't think anyone is saying a good LYS shouldn't be supported. What they _are_ saying is that the shop should also support designers and customers by not violating designers' rights and giving customer service (after all, if designers didn't make patterns and customers didn't need yarn, where would they be?). Most fiber folks I've met are wonderful, and those, I certainly will do my best to support (I can only afford to go to the one I like about once or twice a year, but I spend as much as I can afford every time). But one thing I find absolutely unbearable is dishonesty, and should I find that in a shop, I certainly won't deal with them.

I used to work in a bookstore, and when we didn't have something customers were looking for, we'd refer them to other stores in the area or offer to call and see if the other stores (not owned by us) had it; we'd also refer them to websites we knew about if the book was hard to find. Many times, they'd come back and buy something else, and some even called to thank us when they located what they wanted. For me, it was important to help that person, and it did pay off in the end. It's not always about the sale--support the whole community, and what good you do today comes back to you later.


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## YoMaMi (Jan 19, 2011)

My LYS is Webs in Northampton MA. They are huge and do a booming online business as well as walk in business.
That said, what Webs does, if it out of a magazine, or book, I presume, is offer to order the mag., charge for it, but copy the pattern so you don't have to wait to get started. No obligation to buy their yarn.
Nice solution I think.


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## laceylinda (Aug 17, 2012)

lemonygodess said:


> Had an issue with my LYS.Saw a completed item and asked the owner to order the book as it was sold out.Came for it, was told sorry sold out on it and it may be as much as a month before its back in stock.But, if I would buy the yarn for the project she'd copy me the pattern.Not trying to get something free here and felt a little held up. So I told her I'm not prepared to do that.Copyright issue, also what if I don't want to use your yarn?Told her a shawl was cute on the wall, her reply was,"Yeah, everything here is real cute."I was upset by this and DH was so angry.Sorry needed to vent a bit.


She was pretty cute (fly cute) herself wasn't she - trying to get you to buy the yarn without knowing you would definitely get the pattern. I don't know what it is about craft shops but the staff or owners of all those close to where I live are positively unfriendly and unhelpful. The nearest one is run by a woman and her mother and I've stopped going there as everything is so much trouble for them, especially the mother. The other two I used to go to are not as bad but I don't feel comfortable going there so now I go to Hobbycraft where the staff are friendly and there is a better selection.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

JCF said:


> Had somewhat the same problem with an LYS on the other side of Richmond. Found some yarn I liked, but when the clerk learned where I lived, she had nothing more to do with me. Thought my cash was green just like everyone else's. No? Needless to say, I haven't been back.


That's really bizarre and shortsighted on the part of the clerk!


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

boop0717 said:


> I too own a LYS. I found out my clerk was copying book patterns and put an immediate stop to it! I have customers tell me that other LYS owners copy patterns for them and I tell them, sorry, I won't violate copyright. Either buy the book or go elsewhere. I even offer a discount on the book! Also, most people don't know that we usually can't buy 1 book, but have to buy multiple copies of the book. We all the access to free patterns it just does not pay for me to buy multiple copies of some books. So if someone is looking for just one book I suggest Amazon and then I will help them with the yarn purchase and instructions. I bend over backwards to offer great customer service, but still have people come in and tell me yarn is cheaper at Michael's or AC Moore. Of course you aren't getting the same quality yarn that you do in my shop nor is there anyone there to help you when you need it! I offer free sit and knit and have people come in with yarn purchased elsewhere and then they ask for assistance. One customer who always does this told me I make her very happy. My answer was that she could make me very happy by purchasing her yarn from me! I am struggling to keep the doors open and wish that more people would support LYS's. Please don't judge all of us by one miserable experience.


I wish your yarn store was in my area :~). We did have two wonderful LYS's at one time and I took turns patronizing them. Sadly, one owner decided to retire and did not wish to sell the store; the other's husband was transferred overseas so she left with him to keep the family of four intact. Now we have none.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

JeanWilkins said:


> Why didn't she write down your name and phone number at the time that she wrote down the order? That would have been the smart thing to do. She was negligent in that. My LYS always writes down my info every time I order something.
> Incidentally, someone had mentioned that Annie's was having a yarn sale. I subscribe to them and they sent me an e-mail this morning with a sale on discontinued Caron yarn colors. I just ordered some sport weight yarn in a light lime green to make a V-neck cardigan for my granddaughter. It was $2.99 per skein.


She did write down my name and phone number. I don't know why she didn't use it. Perhaps she couldn't say no to a customer in hand as opposed to one in the bush?


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

BarbCrochetnKnit said:


> Right..... She didn't remember who she had ordered the book for???? Uh huh! What did she think she was holding your money for???


I didn't buy her story either, and I really doubt that she was "holding" my money :~). However, all's well that ends, I guess.


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## Dusti (Jan 23, 2012)

Nannyshirl said:


> I support the concept of stealing re copyright abuse and believe that fundamentally it's wrong; however, can I ask, what's your view on friends knitting from eachother's patterns? Over the years I've done this many times, and friends have borrowed my patterns to knit from. Similarly, reading a book or magazine and passing it to a friend to read when you've finished (and vice versa) do you consider that copyright abuse also. I think what I'm asking is, what's the difference?[
> 
> Technically, yes, it is infringement on copyright laws. Spitting on the ground is against the law too but everybody does it. Let me equate it this way:
> 
> ...


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## musing crow (Nov 16, 2012)

If you feel comfortable enough, at some point you might discuss this situation with the owner and explain your point of view. Clearing the air on both sides can really help sometimes. Try to let this go. Buy the book elsewhere and the yarn wherever you find what makes you happy! It will be a lovely project and, hopefully, you will forget this unplesant experience.

I suport my LYS as much as I can. The owner happens to carry my two favorite yarn brands and our color sense is similar ,so I am very lucky.

I realize that I can get sometimes better prices online for books and things like blocking mats, notions and maybe even the yarn etc, but having a LYS means a lot to mean ,and I am willing to spend the extra money to help keep the doors open.

I think that sometimes we all need to sit back and think about what things in our towns mean the most to us, and then make a concentrated effort to shop locally when possible. These shop owners are our neighbors and having their shops in our towns makes for a more vibrant town atmosphere.

I live in a rural community. Of course I shop online for speciality yarns that my LYS does not carry, but I do everything that I can to shop at the store. I'm now on a fixed income, but I will still support the shop - it means that much to me.


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## ForgetfulFi (Sep 29, 2012)

lemonygodess said:


> Had an issue with my LYS.Saw a completed item and asked the owner to order the book as it was sold out.Came for it, was told sorry sold out on it and it may be as much as a month before its back in stock.But, if I would buy the yarn for the project she'd copy me the pattern.Not trying to get something free here and felt a little held up. So I told her I'm not prepared to do that.Copyright issue, also what if I don't want to use your yarn?Told her a shawl was cute on the wall, her reply was,"Yeah, everything here is real cute."I was upset by this and DH was so angry.Sorry needed to vent a bit.


BTW what was the item that you wanted the pattern for. you only said it was a completed item and then you threw her offer of help back in her face. She needs to sell her wools, maybe you could have returned quicker to pick up the book you had ordered, maybe she could not afford to order the book for you until someone had bought some of her stock. Did you even consider that possibility. I think she probably gave you some attitude because you were off with her. If I had the choice of selling something or waiting for ages for someone to collect something, I think I would rather make a sale. How was she to know you would turn up to collect the order. Why would you take your husband into the shop with you? Did you expect some confrontation of some kind and now feel vilified that you can moan about it on here.
Perhaps you were previously rude to her before without even realising it. 
You made me annoyed just by your writing about it.
Having been on the receiving end of mardy customers before, I can tell you it is no fun being faced with some angry harridan when you are just trying to do your job or make a living. Maybe one of her helpers sold your copy by accident.
Whatever etc etc.
Get over it. Life is too short.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

What I am seeing more and more of is less respect for those who create and more room for those who "gaze into the distance"..yeah..nice, thanks!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Does it really matter what the customer has planned or does it matter what the customer will PAY the artist for? The last I knew the market doesn't set the price, the artist does. Did Da'Vinchi set the price on the Pieta?


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## linzers (May 17, 2012)

JanKnit14 said:


> Working in a LYS, I can tell you from experience that certain yarn companies are no longer printing pattern books, yet the LYS may still have the yarn left in their inventory. Not supplying pattern books is not supporting the LYS who is marketing their yarn and in turn the LYS cannot accommodate the customer's request for the book. The yarn companies expect the consumer to log into their website, locate and pay for the pattern, download the pattern and print it! This method completely cuts out the LYS! And...not everyone owns a computer & a printer, not to mention how to operate them. All so the yarn company can increase their bottom line. So please, do not always blame the LYS but rather boycott the yarns that are no longer supported by pattern books.


Clearly we live in a new world. The internet is only a part of that newness. What do you think about operating "out of the box", and helping customers find and then purchase patterns off the internet at the LYS? If the owners and people who work there take the time to do a little research, they can promote patterns for the yarns that they carry. Customers can easily switch gears from purchasing from a knitted sample to purchasing from a Ravelry photo.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

ForgetfulFi said:


> BTW what was the item that you wanted the pattern for. you only said it was a completed item and then you threw her offer of help back in her face. She needs to sell her wools, maybe you could have returned quicker to pick up the book you had ordered, maybe she could not afford to order the book for you until someone had bought some of her stock. Did you even consider that possibility. I think she probably gave you some attitude because you were off with her. If I had the choice of selling something or waiting for ages for someone to collect something, I think I would rather make a sale. How was she to know you would turn up to collect the order. Why would you take your husband into the shop with you? Did you expect some confrontation of some kind and now feel vilified that you can moan about it on here.
> Perhaps you were previously rude to her before without even realising it.
> You made me annoyed just by your writing about it.
> Having been on the receiving end of mardy customers before, I can tell you it is no fun being faced with some angry harridan when you are just trying to do your job or make a living. Maybe one of her helpers sold your copy by accident.
> ...


Back atcha.....


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## ForgetfulFi (Sep 29, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> Back atcha.....


Sorry, I thought this post was from lemonygodess. What do you think you are the KP police. Everyone is entitled to post back to the person who sent in the post, ie lemonygodess, not SAMkewel


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## run4fittness (May 22, 2011)

destinyarnshop,

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. My LYS has a few worker bees that really should not be there. One lady has always been super nice to me even when I don't buy anything. She understands that I like to come in a "neb" from time to time. She teases and says I come in to "finger" the yarn. There was one lady; however, that i absolutely refused to deal with. If she was the only checker working I would wait until another lady came up or would go to the bead section to check out. There really is several sides to the same story. I would be upset to be spoken to in that manner and most likely would have called her on it at the time. Yes, I have threatened to bad mouth stores for poor customer service and have done it in the check out! It could be she forgot to order the book and was too embarassed to admit it. I would try again in a month and then mention at that time something about a bad memory or something. I only have one store even half way close to me so it would be really difficult to boycott it!


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## 1953knitter (Mar 30, 2011)

There are too many ways to get patterns and yarn other than going to a brick and mortar shop and the shop owner needs to understand she's not the only way to get what you want. Order the book & yarn and have it delivered to your front door without the flip comments.


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## Roe (Feb 10, 2011)

Keispa said:


> This is how my devious mind works. Lol..I would wait that month for it be reordered and come in, then I would go in just to see if the book did indeed come in, I would act like I intended to buy it, write down the name , act like I was browsing for yarn to use with the pattern then tell her I think I've changed my mind, and let her know that it is because of the way I was treated by you the last time I was in. You would then have the name of the book and could order it else where. It could very well be a book that is no longer being published and she is just trying to get you to buy yarn there.


See that is just what I was thinking. Great minds think alike!! :thumbup:


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## K2P2 knitter (Jan 31, 2013)

There are many reasons someone might take their spouse into the knitting shop. I take my spouse because I can't leave him home alone. He takes numerous medications at very set times. He needs to be watched because he sometimes falls. I don't live close to any family so I really don't have anyone to watch him. The shop owner knows my situation and is happy to have him come in and sit while I shop. The owner always greets him and asks if she can get him a cup of coffee to enjoy while I shop. It makes him less self conscious about being in the shop and gives me some time to look at the yarn, patterns and knitted samples. I can't leave my spouse in the car because number one that isn't right, number two it is either too hot or too cold for him to stay in the car, number three he needs to get out of the house for a change of scenery.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

ForgetfulFi said:


> Sorry, I thought this post was from lemonygodess. What do you think you are the KP police. Everyone is entitled to post back to the person who sent in the post, ie lemonygodess, not SAMkewel


What's your point? I'm merely suggesting that you take your own advice. If we shouldn't take offense, neither should you.


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## aliciawake (Jun 21, 2011)

lemonygodess said:


> Had an issue with my LYS.Saw a completed item and asked the owner to order the book as it was sold out.Came for it, was told sorry sold out on it and it may be as much as a month before its back in stock.But, if I would buy the yarn for the project she'd copy me the pattern.Not trying to get something free here and felt a little held up. So I told her I'm not prepared to do that.Copyright issue, also what if I don't want to use your yarn?Told her a shawl was cute on the wall, her reply was,"Yeah, everything here is real cute."I was upset by this and DH was so angry.Sorry needed to vent a bit.


oh my, sounds like a similar experience I had at an LYS. Where are you in NM? You can PM your reply...


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## dijewe (Mar 1, 2011)

I wish I had a LYS close by. I have been to a few in other states - couldn't leave empty handed either but that's just me and my compulsive need to buy quality yarn. Have not had any bad experiences either so can 't comment on that.I also have the tendency to say what's on my mind, so if anyone offered to copy a pattern out of a book, my jaw would have hit the floor and I would question the ethics of doing this.

IMO - the only way to solve a problem is dialog with the people concerned otherwise what's the point.

As I said, I wish I had LYS close by, I would probably move in and they would have to employ a 'bouncer' to throw me out. I love quality yarn - in fact I would rather have a little quality yarn than bag loads of big store yarn. As it is, I am slowing plugging through the mounds of hobby lobby yarn I bought 2 years ago ( hope the grands don't mind all the afghans - but too bad if they do LOL ) which I won't replenish in a hurry.


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## lori2637 (Jan 25, 2011)

mavisb said:


> I am sorry, but I disagree with you ladies. I believe this LYS was providing a service by agreeing to photocopy the pattern, albeit copyright, it was just one pattern out of the book and she may have wanted to help Lemon Godess to get some wool that would have looked lovely in that particular shawl.
> 
> I also say there are three sides to the story, your truth, their truth and in the middle the correct truth.
> 
> Sorry if I have upset anyone by disagreeing, but please don't shoot me down for having my own opinion.


I agree, my LYS will copy a pattern for me if I buy the yarn too. They probably make more money off of the yarn, than the books. Some people just don't want to pay for the premium yarn and will buy the cheaper yarn at a discount store


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## User5935 (Feb 9, 2011)

She sounds unprofessional- selling something she specifically ordered for you OR forgetting who you are and that she was going to order it for you and never did. Shady- will copy something copyrighted, and only if you buy her yarn (just to stick it to her I'd have purchased a single skein of something for an entirely different purpose IF the copyright issue weren't there!)And possibly rude to top it all off. She may have meant that that things in the area of the shawl, possibly made by someone other than herself, are cute, rather than the perceived, yeah all my stuff is cute. She is human and could have been having a day, or month, but I understand your frustration. There was one here that didn't last a year. I wasn't sad to see it go entirely, because everything was overprices, there was no real variety- it was all higher end stuff like hand paints etc, and while I rarely saw the owner who seemed too busy to be bothered, her employee seemed like she knew NOTHING about yarn and its crafts, AND like she couldn't be bothered. And before you ask- no, no one else was in the store besides me. There is a not as bright, not not a fun store down town with 1 employee/owner who is knowledgeable, helpful, concerned about retaining customers, and kind and happy to talk non yarn nonsense. I move in a bout a year, but am more happy with her until then!!!!


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## linda6200 (Oct 11, 2011)

This seems to be getting rancorous in some ways. We all have opinions, and there's no reason to get into a cyber-fight over it. It all began with one person making a comment about her LYS where she had a bad experience. We've all had bad experiences in various situations, both as customers and probably as some sort of service person. I know I have.

As for the copyright, I used to work in a library, where copyright laws were heavily emphasized. The new copyright laws changed things drastically. We once were able to make copies of things to put on reserve for professors; that can no longer happen. We were only allowed to copy about 10% of a book for the professors. The professors screamed, but -- hey -- if you had written a book, and a professor chose to make a copy of the book and put it on reserve in the library for a bunch of classes to look at -- think how much you'd be losing as opposed to having those students purchase the book. If we don't pay designers, they will stop designing. They do have the right to the royalties from their designs; that's how they make money.

Okay, I've rambled on much too long. Please, no nastiness; let's stick to civility. Thanks.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

mavisb said:


> I am sorry, but I disagree with you ladies. I believe this LYS was providing a service by agreeing to photocopy the pattern, albeit copyright, it was just one pattern out of the book and she may have wanted to help Lemon Godess to get some wool that would have looked lovely in that particular shawl.
> 
> I also say there are three sides to the story, your truth, their truth and in the middle the correct truth.
> 
> Sorry if I have upset anyone by disagreeing, but please don't shoot me down for having my own opinion.


We need to know the name of the shop. Then we can notify the distributors about what she is doing. I am a designer and I KNOW it's appalling.


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## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> She did write down my name and phone number. I don't know why she didn't use it. Perhaps she couldn't say no to a customer in hand as opposed to one in the bush?


That really is no excuse on her part. She ordered it for you and she should have contacted you when it came in; especially, if you had prepaid. I don't know if you did, but she should have called you regardless. My LYS always contacts me when something I ordered came in.


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## Ann DeGray (May 11, 2011)

courier770 said:


> "Lending" or "borrowing" material is a w hole different matter. I've no objection to anyone "lending" or "borrowing" anything they chose to. It's the "duplication and distribution" that is at issue. Here's the difference.
> 
> If you lend something to a friend, they return it..if you duplicate it and distribute it you have now given them permission to do the same. So you "covertly" copy a pattern and give it to a friend...he/she copies it a few times and gives it to three friends, who each do the same...pretty soon the copyright holder is out HUNDREDS of copies. That starts to add up, financially, and gets out of control quickly.
> 
> ...


The very same thing happens to composers of music. I was a church choir director for about 18 years and I would NOT make copies of music for my choir yet I know of choir directors who may buy (or be given, free of charge at a music clinic) one piece of music and make copies for each choir member.

"But we're just a small church, we don't have a large music budget," was what I heard said many times. Well, if it's illegal to copy music why on earth would a church think it's not illegal because they are a church....and a small one.... so it must be just a *little* illegal, right?

Right.


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## -MissMillie- (Apr 8, 2013)

Absolutely the lys is supposed to be there to support it's customers. If it doesn't it won't be there long. My lys, 30 miles from home, is wonderful and makes me a little biased maybe!


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

Dusti said:


> Nannyshirl said:
> 
> 
> > I support the concept of stealing re copyright abuse and believe that fundamentally it's wrong; however, can I ask, what's your view on friends knitting from eachother's patterns? Over the years I've done this many times, and friends have borrowed my patterns to knit from. Similarly, reading a book or magazine and passing it to a friend to read when you've finished (and vice versa) do you consider that copyright abuse also. I think what I'm asking is, what's the difference?[
> ...


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## catowner (May 7, 2013)

destinyarnshop - Thank you for your info from the other side. There are indeed at least two sides to every question, if not more. I work for a small mom & pop garden center. Your comments are right on.


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## Jules934 (May 7, 2013)

Mercygirl76 said:


> I hope you got the name of the pattern and book it was sold in. Perhaps you could order it online or through another LYS. Like someone else said, I wouldn't go to that LYS again!


If you are talking about a "real book" rather than a book of patterns printed/distributed by a yarn company..........and

If you have the book title andOR author,

:arrow: check with your local Library. They may have it. If they don't they can request if from other libraries in the area.

:arrow: check with any Bookseller. If they don't have it, they may be able to get it for you.

:arrow: try Amazon.com.

As far as the LYS goes, if there is something I absolutely need and can't wait a few days for, and if I _ know _ they have it (call first) I'd get it there. Otherwise, there are better places to spend my money.


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## clmobry (Jun 16, 2013)

Thank you for a different perspective. We do not always know why someone reacting the way they do. A wise friend once told me "they are NOT reacting to you". Alas I do not have a LYS, but when I did I supported them because they always had good advice, suggestions for yarn, and help - even in an emergency.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

JeanWilkins said:


> That really is no excuse on her part. She ordered it for you and she should have contacted you when it came in; especially, if you had prepaid. I don't know if you did, but she should have called you regardless. My LYS always contacts me when something I ordered came in.


Yes, I had prepaid. My comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. As I said, I no longer do business there :~).


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## lemonygodess (Apr 11, 2013)

I must say I've been attacked here quite vigorously, for sharing about my feelings.I didn't say one unkind word about the shop owner or name the shop, tried to prepay for the pattern but was turned down and don't use only cheap yarn from other shops nor have I ever stolen toilet paper!That being said thanks to my defenders.The pattern I'm looking for is a pair of socks that open down the toe and are laced up.I will pay for it if anyone knows the name of the pattern please PM me.I do believe in supporting local business.


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## rasputin (Apr 21, 2013)

Tennessee.Gal said:


> I try and support my LYS, but I have so much stash that I can't justify buying anything else right now. However, the 10-year anniversary sale is next month and if I find a good deal, well.....
> 
> It is the only LYS within 50 miles. Others have come and gone. Somehow the owner managed to stay in business during the recession, but the shop has never been a money maker. She works part-time elsewhere. Several of her friends who are expert knitters volunteer at the shop in return for discounts on yarn, but after several years they are dropping off -- some have moved and others are no longer available for one reason or another. She can't afford paid staff.
> 
> ...


the same thing happened to a friend of mine. Also the group sat in the same seats every week and God forbid if someone new sat in "their" seat!!!


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## AngieR (Jul 22, 2013)

lemonygodess said:


> I must say I've been attacked here quite vigorously, for sharing about my feelings.I didn't say one unkind word about the shop owner or name the shop, tried to prepay for the pattern but was turned down and don't use only cheap yarn from other shops nor have I ever stolen toilet paper!That being said thanks to my defenders.The pattern I'm looking for is a pair of socks that open down the toe and are laced up.I will pay for it if anyone knows the name of the pattern please PM me.I do believe in supporting local business.


Dont take it personally. I think you may have hit some sensitive nerves and some posters are venting about situations that have been bugging them. I hope you find your pattern, yarn and can finally make your cute item.


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

lemonygodess said:


> Sadly she wasn't about to give that info out.


Go back to the store, or have someone go in your stead, and take a picture of the shawl with a cell phone. Post here and most likely people will help research the source. If this is a chain store, a call to the district office would most likely help get the info about the pattern source, however, I would purchase the pattern elsewhere. And another thing...if the pattern was sold out, exactly how did she plan to make a copy for you??


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

wiremysoul said:


> What a stupid (w)itch.


Um.....I know some very nice people who are witches. I would never think to use their identifier as a pejorative.


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

Keispa said:


> ... I would act like I intended to buy it, write down the name , act like I was browsing for yarn to use with the pattern then tell her I think I've changed my mind, and let her know that it is because of the way I was treated by you the last time I was in.


I was in a line at the checkout counter of a local independent store, and the owner was chatting away with the person ahead of me, speaking very negatively about other customers, mocking them, and making personal comments about them and their families. The individuals in line behind me were becoming very exasperated and frustrated not just with the wait, but with what they were overhearing. When it was my turn, I let her chat away and ring up all of the purchases, and then when it was time to fork over my hard-earned cash, I pulled it back and said "On second thought....I don't feel comfortable handing over my hard-earned cash to a person who mocks her customers, tells their personal and private business to other customers, and especially who talks about their children who are innocent and can't defend themselves." She stood there with her mouth open. I turned to the individuals behind me and said "Ladies....have a nice afternoon." Every single one of them put their purchases on the counter and walked out without saying a word to her.


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## martha9447 (Oct 26, 2012)

I'm afraid I'm going to have to chime in. I know there are rude shop owners of every ilk. And there are many owners having a bad day. However, they are in the people business, as well as yarn business so they need to clean up their act up whatever their business or people won't come. There are also very rude customers.

Ok, enough of that. I want to take this chance to brag on my LYS.
The classes are wonderful, both instructors who make sure ALL get help and the ladies who give up their time to help each other, move chairs to bring a new lady and are generally great folk. 

We go as a group ( around 38 strong) to the mountains in Feb. and this summer we "retreated" in the shop on Friday and Saturday. We ate together, had choices of classes ,laughed, danced and did I mention eat. Our great leader(better known as shop owner) worked so hard to make sure we had fun .

Let me strongly recommend The Yard Haven in Knoxville, Tn. It's not called a haven for nothing!! Just saying there are good LYSs.


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## Lee Carlson (May 15, 2013)

This was an excellent reply. This is also true on book stores.I am not in business but I definitely try to shop locallu.


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## teacherhaak (Apr 3, 2011)

I think you should go and frankly talk to the shop owner about the issues you have. I can see both sides. The owner might have been only trying to help and you misunderstood. Or, she might have been in the wrong. I frequent a wonderful yarn shop. When I had an issue with an employee being less than friendly and helpful, the owner called me and really tried to please me. I have always tried not to take advantage of the shop owner by asking for favors. In return, she if very helpful and the employees go out of their way to be a good resource. The best thing to do, I think, is to clear the air by discussing your concerns witht the owner. You might lose a valuable knitting resource because of a misunderstanding.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

Was this person the actual owner or an employee? Makes a big difference. If this was an employee then I think a phone call to the actual owner would be much appreciated by the owner. I'm sure she would be very upset to hear an employee was treating customers rudely. If it wasn't the owner it isn't fair to punish her (him). Give them a chance to fix the problem for you.


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## SueJoyceTn (Aug 9, 2011)

Sometimes the owner of the local LYS is pleasant and sometimes she makes me feel very uncomfortable. I don't go in there as often as I would like because you never know what kind of reception you will receive. I suppose that part of the issue is right now I'm on an extremely tight budget and although her yarn is beautiful it is totally out of my price range. It won't always be that way but I would like to think that any customer would be welcome.


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## Dusti (Jan 23, 2012)

StitchDesigner said:


> Actually, the policeman can and will pull you over for a "California Stop." Gotta make that quota.
> 
> And, as I said, I'm a designer. I would not hesitate in pursuing action against you. YOU DO NOT OWN THE COPYRIGHT!!!!!


In California I guess, but not in my neck of the woods and I wish you luck!


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## destinyarnshop (Apr 6, 2013)

GQuest said:


> Could the customer have been a little more direct in her dealings with the LYS in question to fulfill her need or request? Perhaps, I would have done so. If a LYS wants to make a sale and bring the customer back again I believe they would do what they can within reason to make the sale.
> 
> Interesting perspective from one LYS owner that make sense in today's economy. If needing to make ends meet, did you know if a woman is divorced and does not remarry that she can collect on her ex's Social Security without detriment to his SS?? Little known fact that is not publicized.


I believe in order to collect his SS money, you need to have been married for at least 10 years. I, sadly, only lasted for 8...


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## destinyarnshop (Apr 6, 2013)

catowner said:


> destinyarnshop - Thank you for your info from the other side. There are indeed at least two sides to every question, if not more. I work for a small mom & pop garden center. Your comments are right on.


Thanks, catowner, for the validation. I want my fellow knitters and KPers just to keep one thing in mind. I used to tell my 3 sons when they were little that, as Bigbird says, "we all make mistakes, it's part of living."....and, maybe the shopowners that to so many of us seem nasty or unfriendly may be having troubles and deserve another chance to be gracious. We should all try to understand and return for a second look...if we receive the same treatment, then we should move on. Thanks to all of you for being part of this forum. It has really helped me to understand more about my customers and the way they relate to my attitude and actions. I have always found that smiling is contagious, and most of my customers leave with one on their face.


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## Tendebrock (Jul 13, 2013)

I love my LYS. Everyone is greated when they come in, whether a new customer or regular. The staff are all accomplished and willing to help with problems. There is an area to sit and knit. The teachers are awesome. The yarns are licious and of good quality. There is always something new. I make an effort to support small business when I can. Unless I am traveling, all my yarn purchases come from my LYS. If you are ever in San Antonio, stop by and visit Yarnivore. It is everything a LYS should be. And then some.


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## Bombshellknits (Feb 2, 2013)

Alice's said:


> There are many reasons someone might take their spouse into the knitting shop. I take my spouse because I can't leave him home alone. He takes numerous medications at very set times. He needs to be watched because he sometimes falls. I don't live close to any family so I really don't have anyone to watch him. The shop owner knows my situation and is happy to have him come in and sit while I shop. The owner always greets him and asks if she can get him a cup of coffee to enjoy while I shop. It makes him less self conscious about being in the shop and gives me some time to look at the yarn, patterns and knitted samples. I can't leave my spouse in the car because number one that isn't right, number two it is either too hot or too cold for him to stay in the car, number three he needs to get out of the house for a change of scenery.


I take my husband to yarn stores. Lots of time I visit ones when we travel. Often he just comes with me for fun. And picks yarns for projects. In Key West, we went to a great store. A man worked there. My husband was impressed with the man's knitted items. Actually, he thought this man did the best work my husband had seen, outside of my grandmother.


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## Bombshellknits (Feb 2, 2013)

wyldwmn said:


> I was in a line at the checkout counter of a local independent store, and the owner was chatting away with the person ahead of me, speaking very negatively about other customers, mocking them, and making personal comments about them and their families. The individuals in line behind me were becoming very exasperated and frustrated not just with the wait, but with what they were overhearing. When it was my turn, I let her chat away and ring up all of the purchases, and then when it was time to fork over my hard-earned cash, I pulled it back and said "On second thought....I don't feel comfortable handing over my hard-earned cash to a person who mocks her customers, tells their personal and private business to other customers, and especially who talks about their children who are innocent and can't defend themselves." She stood there with her mouth open. I turned to the individuals behind me and said "Ladies....have a nice afternoon." Every single one of them put their purchases on the counter and walked out without saying a word to her.


GOOD FOR YOU!!! I do stuff like that all the time. A lady in the dollar store was giving the cashier crap because of the procedure to write a check. I told the lady to be quiet and let the cashier do her job. She told me it was none of my business. I told her it was my business if I am in line behind her listening to her verbally abuse someone. So, she says to me, "Oooh, what at *itch". Not be outdone, I said, "Yes,, you are". I was a little nervous she would be waiting in the parking lot to kick my butt, but the whole time I was holding 25lbs of cat food, I figured I could throw that at her. And you know, the cashier thanked me and said that lady did that EVERY time she came in. You would think she would follow along and quit writing checks if she didn't like the rules.


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## misellen (Mar 8, 2013)

wyldwmn said:


> I was in a line at the checkout counter of a local independent store, and the owner was chatting away with the person ahead of me, speaking very negatively about other customers, mocking them, and making personal comments about them and their families. The individuals in line behind me were becoming very exasperated and frustrated not just with the wait, but with what they were overhearing. When it was my turn, I let her chat away and ring up all of the purchases, and then when it was time to fork over my hard-earned cash, I pulled it back and said "On second thought....I don't feel comfortable handing over my hard-earned cash to a person who mocks her customers, tells their personal and private business to other customers, and especially who talks about their children who are innocent and can't defend themselves." She stood there with her mouth open. I turned to the individuals behind me and said "Ladies....have a nice afternoon." Every single one of them put their purchases on the counter and walked out without saying a word to her.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: Good for you and the other customers. The store owner won't soon forget that result of her gossiping.


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## misellen (Mar 8, 2013)

martha9447 said:


> I'm afraid I'm going to have to chime in. I know there are rude shop owners of every ilk. And there are many owners having a bad day. However, they are in the people business, as well as yarn business so they need to clean up their act up whatever their business or people won't come. There are also very rude customers.
> 
> Ok, enough of that. I want to take this chance to brag on my LYS.
> The classes are wonderful, both instructors who make sure ALL get help and the ladies who give up their time to help each other, move chairs to bring a new lady and are generally great folk.
> ...


Lucky Knoxville knitters!


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## sseidel (Apr 20, 2012)

linzers said:


> I didn't read through all the pages of responses yet. I will later when I have more time. I just couldn't help responding to this. I think LYS would be doing themselves and their customers a huge service if they didn't think of it as " LYS vs. the internet". Bring your laptop or computer to work, encourage customers to browse Ravelry or Knitty or whatever. Let them buy a pattern off the internet in your store. You said there is very little profit to be made from selling patterns. I think the average customer would appreciate the support. When you show them the "perfect" yarn and the perfect needles ( from your inventory) for this pattern, they will buy the yarn from you and be so very grateful for the thoughtful customer service. Also when a customer walks into your store and falls in love with a special yarn, have some pattern ideas from Ravelry to refer them to. Neither customer nor owner enjoys subterfuge, pretending that the internet isn't a preferred source for patterns. I hope LYS owners are not offended by this. I am offering another possible perspective that might help keep up with our changing world. I am always so sorry when I see LYS go out of business. I am horrified by your reports of theft. I only wish you well.


A LYS in my area does this. They have a laptop set up to check patterns, and will let you know if a pattern is from Ravelry or somewhere else on the internet. The staff will then show you any of the yarn suggestions that they may have in their shop. In addition they will write down the name of the pattern for you and where to find it. I do note that there are very few books in this shop. I find this so helpful, low pressure, and positive for repeat customers. :thumbup:


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## linzers (May 17, 2012)

sseidel said:


> A LYS in my area does this. They have a laptop set up to check patterns, and will let you know if a pattern is from Ravelry or somewhere else on the internet. The staff will then show you any of the yarn suggestions that they may have in their shop. In addition they will write down the name of the pattern for you and where to find it. I do note that there are very few books in this shop. I find this so helpful, low pressure, and positive for repeat customers. :thumbup:


You are so lucky! I wish more brick and mortar shops thought to embrace their biggest competetor...the internet. I would gladly shop there. Thanks for sharing. Now, if they could be convinced to offer volume discounts....


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## rasputin (Apr 21, 2013)

destinyarnshop said:


> I believe in order to collect his SS money, you need to have been married for at least 10 years. I, sadly, only lasted for 8...


I will add something to that: my friend was married 3 times.
S.S. called her and told her to collect SS from hubby #1 cuz he made the most money. so she switched.


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## Bombshellknits (Feb 2, 2013)

I have another comment from the point of view of a business owner. Years ago when my kids were in school they had a skating party. I went, and yes, put, on skates. One person I knew from high school commented on it, asking what I was doing. I made a comment about I was skating, and maybe I was crazy. She informed me that the neighborhood my husband grew up in thought HE was crazy to marry me. Nice, huh? Of course I never forgot, and I thought that was mean. About 2 years ago, she became our customer. Yep. I was more than cordial every time I spoke to her. Even tho I didn't want to be. Let me tell you, spending the money she paid us was sweet!! 

Moral of the story: customers are your bread and butter. Be nice to them. When you are HOME ALONE go ahead and complain. But, never, never in front of other customers.


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## rasputin (Apr 21, 2013)

Bombshellknits said:


> I have another comment from the point of view of a business owner. Years ago when my kids were in school they had a skating party. I went, and yes, put, on skates. One person I knew from high school commented on it, asking what I was doing. I made a comment about I was skating, and maybe I was crazy. She informed me that the neighborhood my husband grew up in thought HE was crazy to marry me. Nice, huh? Of course I never forgot, and I thought that was mean. About 2 years ago, she became our customer. Yep. I was more than cordial every time I spoke to her. Even tho I didn't want to be. Let me tell you, spending the money she paid us was sweet!!
> 
> Moral of the story: customers are your bread and butter. Be nice to them. When you are HOME ALONE go ahead and complain. But, never, never in front of other customers.


I completely agree with you. my husband has an electrical business. You ALWAYS smile and be nice.no matter what. I've had to bite my tongue many, many times. 
Sometimes this works: if you go into a shop and the owner doesn't look too happy, I try and find out their name (on a tag, or ask) and say" Hi _blank, how are you?" "you're shop is nice". usually that softens them a bit. I try to remember: be kind, you never what is going on in the other person life"...


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## Pleclerrc (Apr 17, 2011)

A wonderful attitude we should try to emulate.


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## ForgetfulFi (Sep 29, 2012)

lemonygodess said:


> I must say I've been attacked here quite vigorously, for sharing about my feelings.I didn't say one unkind word about the shop owner or name the shop, tried to prepay for the pattern but was turned down and don't use only cheap yarn from other shops nor have I ever stolen toilet paper!That being said thanks to my defenders.The pattern I'm looking for is a pair of socks that open down the toe and are laced up.I will pay for it if anyone knows the name of the pattern please PM me.I do believe in supporting local business.


I apologise if I was rude, it 's just that people don't read what is written and get on the band wagon without knowing what is happening. Nowhere did you say the pattern you wanted was for a shawl yet all these people were banging on about it being a shawl pattern. Now we know the pattern is for cute socks, maybe we can help you find the pattern. I would bet that by the end of today, someone will find that pattern for you. I hope you find it and can make your cute socks. Happy knitting
Fiona


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

ForgetfulFi said:


> I apologise if I was rude, it 's just that people don't read what is written and get on the band wagon without knowing what is happening. Nowhere did you say the pattern you wanted was for a shawl yet all these people were banging on about it being a shawl pattern. Now we know the pattern is for cute socks, maybe we can help you find the pattern. I would bet that by the end of today, someone will find that pattern for you. I hope you find it and can make your cute socks. Happy knitting
> Fiona


If I had one wish for the forum it would be that people would read every single post, especially the first post and not jump in and respond to assumptions made by others.

There's a big difference between a sock pattern and a shawl pattern.


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## CrochetorKnit (Feb 15, 2013)

bonster said:


> An actual store front rather than internet.


Gotcha! Thank you!


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## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

wyldwmn said:


> I was in a line at the checkout counter of a local independent store, and the owner was chatting away with the person ahead of me, speaking very negatively about other customers, mocking them, and making personal comments about them and their families. The individuals in line behind me were becoming very exasperated and frustrated not just with the wait, but with what they were overhearing. When it was my turn, I let her chat away and ring up all of the purchases, and then when it was time to fork over my hard-earned cash, I pulled it back and said "On second thought....I don't feel comfortable handing over my hard-earned cash to a person who mocks her customers, tells their personal and private business to other customers, and especially who talks about their children who are innocent and can't defend themselves." She stood there with her mouth open. I turned to the individuals behind me and said "Ladies....have a nice afternoon." Every single one of them put their purchases on the counter and walked out without saying a word to her.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Touché to you! I think I would probably do the same thing.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

Dusti said:


> In California I guess, but not in my neck of the woods and I wish you luck!


No, if you want to continue to break the law, you're the one in need of "good luck." "Right on red *after stop*" is the law in all 50 states, and a patrolman here in Florida told me you will get pulled over. So, keep it up. You'll find out sooner or later.


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## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

Catarry said:


> Hey, Bonster, check it out....open a posting marked 'sl' and see if it isn't Scottishlass. She marks her posts in the topic line so folks know what they're opening.


That's in case they can't see the great big Scottishlass :thumbup:


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## Ozzie Jane (Jul 5, 2013)

Last week I went to a Craft & Quilt show and admires some hand dyed wool at one of the stalls. A stall attendant asked if she could help and I asked her the ply of the wool I was interested in. She explained all the questions and said that there is a free sock pattern with the yarn that I had chosen. So I went to the register with the yarn and passed the yarn for payment and nicely asked the man for the related sock pattern. Another shop attendant was standing right next to me (stall owner, I presure) and she abruptly told me, "No, there is no free pattern with this yarn". I explained what the other attendant informed me but she would not let me finish. She said that the other lady was "borrowed" and does not know what she's saying. In my opinion, if a stall owner is "borrowing" someone to help with sales, they should be informed so that there is no misleading info to potential customers. Well, I did not like her attitude and politely let her know that I didn't want the yarn. She huffed off to return the wool to it's stall location and most likely to give the other attendant a bit of grief. BTW, I did purchase yarn that day, from another "helpful" stall.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

I think we have a consensus here. "Vote" with your pocketbook.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

One always has the option of sending a clear message to retailers that are less than "hospitable" and Helpful by taking our business elsewhere. Usually I will take the time to send an email to the shop (if they have an email address) to explain why I probably will not make future purchases at their location.

A complaint is a second chance to get things "right"...so let retailers know when you are not pleased and why. Perhaps they will think twice about making the same mistake.


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## groomerkim (Mar 17, 2013)

I love my LYS and shop there as often as I can, even though prices are a little higher on some things, the service is above and beyond. I found a great "article" on line last year, called 5/50 "rule". Basically, think about much you could do for the local stores if you picked 5 locals and spent at least $50 every time you went there. You would help keep a local in business, which keeps the taxes in your community (instead of going to the headquarters of the big box stores) and a lot of local stores support the youth organizions in your town. Support your LYS and other local stores - it will keep growing your town.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

We have one LYS in P'cola. The owner is a trip. I wanted to participate in a KAL skacel yarns had last year. She told me a particular yarn would be $23 a skein. More than I wanted to pay, but I was ready. I got to the shop and she told it was really $30. Plus, the yarn was a 150 gram ball and the color was ugly. The pattern was fingerless mitts! She would not honor her prior price statement. I worked at an LYS in NoVa. We would have and did. 

Earlier this year I asked if people were still doing classes, as I would like to teach one. She cut me off and said, "I do the teaching." I asked about the "Sit and Knit" at her shop and the one at Barnes and Nobles. She bad mouthed the one at Barnes and Nobles and then told me how her group had everything covered, no assistance needed. Sorry, for some reason, (a member of the group asked for help once while I was there and she ignored the knitter) I don't believe her.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

groomerkim, I've been saying the same thing for a long time! When you shop local you support a business that pays local taxes and helps all the local taxing bodies: schools, police/fire/rescue, libraries, streets and sanitation, water district, etc.. 

While doing business on line can make good "dollars sense" it also makes sense to support your local merchants.


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

StitchDesigner said:


> I think we have a consensus here. "Vote" with your pocketbook.


There is another way to vote...often business classes teach that when someone has a bad experience at your establishment, they tell others and there is an average of about 250 other people who eventually hear about it. It can help the process to offer this bit of information if there is difficulty getting a situation resolved. Several years ago a local home improvement store was running a radio advertisement of a man on a date with a woman. The man was making advances and the woman was telling him no. He laughed at her and kept insisting. The advertisement said something about "if at first you don't succeed..." I called the store and talked with the manager about violence and sex abuse not being "funny" and that running this type of advertisement was a bad influence on young men and women who were listening to it. The store manager was rude and insulting. I contacted that manager's supervisor who was also a man, and he insisted that the advertisement was "just a joke." I then contacted the supervisor of THAT man, and told them that if the advertisement continued to run, I was going to be out in front of the local store on xxxxx date when they open, with a sign that said that the store supports violence toward women, and that before going there I would alert the local newspapers and various organizations who give money to women's shelters so that they could join in as well. Within 24 hours that advertisement was no longer running on the local radio station. I never heard back from anybody at that store. And I was serious about my plan--it wasn't just a "threat." These days the store occasionally has helpful seminars directed toward women who want a safe place to learn how to do repairs and upkeep to their homes.


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## Ozzie Jane (Jul 5, 2013)

Wow, this subject has certainly opened up a can of worms!! It seems that everyone has a story to tell. Me, I don't tolerate bad service. We work hard for our money, and when we want to spend it, it's just curteous for shop owners to treat their customers well. Perhaps the LYS that are shutting down did not appreciate their customers enough. Just saying.


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## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

Ozzie Jane said:


> Last week I went to a Craft & Quilt show and admires some hand dyed wool at one of the stalls. A stall attendant asked if she could help and I asked her the ply of the wool I was interested in. She explained all the questions and said that there is a free sock pattern with the yarn that I had chosen. So I went to the register with the yarn and passed the yarn for payment and nicely asked the man for the related sock pattern. Another shop attendant was standing right next to me (stall owner, I presure) and she abruptly told me, "No, there is no free pattern with this yarn". I explained what the other attendant informed me but she would not let me finish. She said that the other lady was "borrowed" and does not know what she's saying. In my opinion, if a stall owner is "borrowing" someone to help with sales, they should be informed so that there is no misleading info to potential customers. Well, I did not like her attitude and politely let her know that I didn't want the yarn. She huffed off to return the wool to it's stall location and most likely to give the other attendant a bit of grief. BTW, I did purchase yarn that day, from another "helpful" stall.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

wyldwmn said:


> There is another way to vote...often business classes teach that when someone has a bad experience at your establishment, they tell others and there is an average of about 250 other people who eventually hear about it. It can help the process to offer this bit of information if there is difficulty getting a situation resolved. Several years ago a local home improvement store was running a radio advertisement of a man on a date with a woman. The man was making advances and the woman was telling him no. He laughed at her and kept insisting. The advertisement said something about "if at first you don't succeed..." I called the store and talked with the manager about violence and sex abuse not being "funny" and that running this type of advertisement was a bad influence on young men and women who were listening to it. The store manager was rude and insulting. I contacted that manager's supervisor who was also a man, and he insisted that the advertisement was "just a joke." I then contacted the supervisor of THAT man, and told them that if the advertisement continued to run, I was going to be out in front of the local store on xxxxx date when they open, with a sign that said that the store supports violence toward women, and that before going there I would alert the local newspapers and various organizations who give money to women's shelters so that they could join in as well. Within 24 hours that advertisement was no longer running on the local radio station. I never heard back from anybody at that store. And I was serious about my plan--it wasn't just a "threat." These days the store occasionally has helpful seminars directed toward women who want a safe place to learn how to do repairs and upkeep to their homes.


Proof that one person CAN make a difference. :thumbup:


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## Dusti (Jan 23, 2012)

StitchDesigner said:


> No, if you want to continue to break the law, you're the one in need of "good luck." "Right on red *after stop*" is the law in all 50 states, and a patrolman here in Florida told me you will get pulled over. So, keep it up. You'll find out sooner or later.


I guess Florida is greedier than here. No need to learn more than that.


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

JeanWilkins said:


> Proof that one person CAN make a difference. :thumbup:


Exactly. And this is the difference between "reacting" and "responding." Did it make me feel angry that this store was running an advertisement that laughed at a man sexually assaulting a woman while in a car with her? Yes. When I called the home improvement store, however, I addressed that issue and their conduct in perpetrating the message that assaulting a woman in any form is fun and/or funny. They didn't want to take responsibility for that, so the action that I took was to get myself heard where it hurt them the most--their wallet. They didn't want to change the advertisement for the betterment of the community, but when it came down to taking a financial "hit" (as it were), then they decided to stop running the advertisement. I did make it a point to share that experience with other people in the community so that they would have an actual example of how to make a difference when it seems like you are just one person up against a very wealthy center of power. The store knew that negative publicity would cost them sales, and after all, that's what they are in business for--they aren't benefactors or educators or philanthropists. They didn't, in that situation, care who they hurt in order to make more money. It was only when they faced the possibility of making less money that they stopped doing something that was harmful to the whole community.


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## misellen (Mar 8, 2013)

Dusti said:


> I guess Florida is greedier than here. No need to learn more than that.


 :thumbdown:


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## LAURA C (Jan 21, 2013)

I was in a lys and saw a baby blanket pattern that I fell in love with. I asked for the pattern, she said she would only give it to me if I bought the yarn. I did not care for the yarn she used, it was a hand wash only, which I feel is not practical for an infant and the blanket would have cost $120, a bit pricy for a baby gift. She refused to allow me to switch the yarn. This was not a kit. Actually, she was copying the pattern out of a book, which is a no no. I left her shop extremely annoyed and never darkened her doorstep again. I did not expect to get the pattern for nothing, but I also will not be told what I HAVE to buy. While relating the episode to a fellow knitter, she told me where I could get the pattern. About a year later, the lys went out of business. Gee, I wonder why. I now frequent a lovely little shop where the owner tells me to bring in my stash and she will gladly help me work with it. She gets my business and I tell everyone how wonderful she is. I understand the lys side, you have to sell to make money, but there is a line you don't cross to sell.


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## Dusti (Jan 23, 2012)

misellen said:


> :thumbdown:


Sorry, I guess I should have added...which I didn't think possible.


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## misellen (Mar 8, 2013)

Dusti said:


> Sorry, I guess I should have added...which I didn't think possible.


 :thumbup:


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## boop0717 (Oct 23, 2012)

I'm on-line also. www.institchesemporium.com If you don't see what you want there, email me and I will gladly see if I can get it for you.


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## lemonygodess (Apr 11, 2013)

A happy ending, the yarn store owner got the book and just called me to let me know its in!I'm so relieved and happy with the outcome!


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## Ann DeGray (May 11, 2011)

lemonygodess said:


> A happy ending, the yarn store owner got the book and just called me to let me know its in!I'm so relieved and happy with the outcome!


See, she wasn't all bad, after all........


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## misellen (Mar 8, 2013)

lemonygodess said:


> A happy ending, the yarn store owner got the book and just called me to let me know its in!I'm so relieved and happy with the outcome!


Sometimes we just get excited too soon. Happens to me too.


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