# Things are heating up in the world #10



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Green, when is your spring fund raiser. What do you have to sell at your fundraiser?. Would a few hand painted cards be saleable do you think? let me know and I will send you some if you think they might sell. I have been selling them for years and they seem to sell.It is a way I give to different groups who are raising funds for goodworks.. just let me know and I will contact you . S


These are beautiful, Shirley! I wish I had half your talent.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

KFN, your grandsons are adorable, how fascinating to see the pics of the babies, hope all is well with your DIL


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> This is totally understandable. I think where you're concerned, we ought to keep Obama off-topic, since there seems to be a huge gulf between how conservatives see him and how liberals do. (One of the more reasonable DP members told me that she had expected Romney to win the election in 2012; I never for a minute thought that was even remotely possible. It felt to me as though we weren't even on the same planet.) As for the sites you send us to, without even realizing how they seem to us, I'll only remark on them when they cross a line I think shouldn't be crossed, like the one listing Zionists together with the Trilateral Commission. BTW, that's a group I remember from back in the Jimmy Carter era. Surely if they were planning a world coup, they would have carried it out by now. Does there ever come a time when you say "How long can I wait for the predictions to come true before I realize they're not going to?"


I'm sorry for offending you. It was not my intent. I want so badly to explain but then I think that I will just make it worse. So I will just shut up now.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> No, no, no you are not a nut, just a little kooky at times, just like the rest of us!!
> :-D :-D :-D


 :lol: :lol: :lol: Thank you. That's reassuring.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: Thank you. That's reassuring.


Is it?? That's scary!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> KFN, your grandsons are adorable, how fascinating to see the pics of the babies, hope all is well with your DIL


It worked! You can see the pics. Yay! I'm so excited. I've tried so many times with my tablets and couldn't post them. But with the new phone, I can. I'm high tech now.

Dil is doing better than expected. They'd been planning on bed rest at 20 weeks, maybe even hospital bed rest. But because she's doing so well, its delayed for now. We really don't let her do much. We wait on her and encourage her to keep her feet up. So, it seems to be working.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> Is it?? That's scary!


Isn't kooky better than nuts? :lol:

I don't care because I know that I'm neither kooky nor nuts.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Isn't kooky better than nuts? :lol:
> 
> I don't care because I know that I'm neither kooky nor nuts.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Heres an experiment. These are my grandsons in the sweaters i made them a couple of years ago.


Awwh, they are little heartbreakers, KFN. Great job on the sweaters!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Green, when is your spring fund raiser. What do you have to sell at your fundraiser?. Would a few hand painted cards be saleable do you think? let me know and I will send you some if you think they might sell. I have been selling them for years and they seem to sell.It is a way I give to different groups who are raising funds for goodworks.. just let me know and I will contact you . S


They are all beautiful, Shirley!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Awwh, they are little heartbreakers, KFN. Great job on the sweaters!


Thanks! Now I've got to get busy and take more pics.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Heres an experiment. These are my grandsons in the sweaters i made them a couple of years ago.


they are lovely obviously you know how to show pics! If you need a hand let me know although I am only familiar with I photo but I can change the appearance if they are too dark or too light.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> They are all beautiful, Shirley!


Iwonder if green will be here tonight or tomorrow. If not I will pm her if I don't hear back. I can't do much to join in the Liberal cause down there. This might make a dollar or two for her.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Lets try this again. Here are pics of the babies. Two are pretty good and two are not. It's still early to get good 3d pics. Here goes.


WOW! how exciting! you take care and try to keep your feet up every once in awhile each day. you will be run off your feet if you are not careful. Wish I could help but likely couldn't even if I was there. you must remember to take care of yourself for Max's sake. He will be sort of left out of the picture with 4 new babies and he will have you, lucky Max.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Green, when is your spring fund raiser. What do you have to sell at your fundraiser?. Would a few hand painted cards be saleable do you think? let me know and I will send you some if you think they might sell. I have been selling them for years and they seem to sell.It is a way I give to different groups who are raising funds for goodworks.. just let me know and I will contact you . S


Oh my gosh! Those are beautiful, just like all of your work.

Our fund raiser is May 15th and 16th. So far one of the largest nurseries in Phoenix is donating plants - flowers, veggies, etc. This is HUGE! One of our members has donated 14 totes (yes, 14 totes) full of fabric for crafts - I am sorting and making patterns and samples of aprons (adult and child), tote bags, plastic bag holders, fancy pincushions, bowl cozies and whatever else I can find to use short lengths of a wild assortment of fabric. Hubby and other gentlemen are making birdhouses which will be painted by a members' daughter-in-law (member just bought DIL a house so she says, "she'll do it.") Another member is crafting cards and I will make some jewelry - mostly earrings to use up odds and ends of beads. We are collecting terra cotta pots and bowls to either paint, sell as is or fill with flowers. Also making custom fabric-covered photo albums. I'm knitting tiny bags to hold ear buds - or hearing aids. Garden signs from old lumber. I've made a couple of nifty chalkboard/key holders from old cabinet doors. There will also be a bake sale.

Any cards you were gracious enough to donate would be a treasured addition of true art. Your generous offer is very touching, Designer. I promise it is a good cause - we are building funds to help elect progressive democrats in 2016 with the dual purpose of increasing our visibility in the community. Payson is a Tea Party stronghold with district representatives who are INSANE. Brenda Barton, who lives near me, just sponsored legislation that would specifically prohibit any community in Arizona from passing any law restricting gun ownership for anyone convicted of domestic violence. This woman MUST be defeated in 2016. Sylvia Allen, my state senator, sponsored legislation that redefines a "meeting" to mean only a meeting where votes are cast, gutting our open meeting laws so the public will have no right to attend "gatherings" where issues are discussed in advance of an actual vote. No public input. These are ALEC agenda items. If you're not familiar with ALEC, just Google them. They are in control of the Arizona legislature and their cancer is spreading across the country. We MUST identify and educate Democrats in 2016 and get them to the polls and it all starts at the local level.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

*pm me your address and your email address* and I will make you some cards. You can price them and figure out what you want to do with them. I will have them there earlier than May lst for you.

I am glad to be able to help! Hope they sell!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> *pm me your address and your email address* and I will make you some cards. You can price them and figure out what you want to do with them. I will have them there earlier than May lst for you.
> 
> I am glad to be able to help! Hope they sell!


I'm positive they will sell. We'll have to start calling this an ARTS and Crafts sale instead of just crafts. I'm attaching a photo to give you an idea what I've been doing the last week or two - in my "spare" time, of course. Nothing nearly as artistic as your paintings, I'm afraid.

Thank you, Designer.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Here's Max now.


You have a beautiful family. So glad the quads and mother are doing well. So glad you figured out the camera!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

May I ask those of you who are interested to read my post in answer to Joey on the site about Obama -- she states that history was changed and nothing before l950 in the history books are true. 
I was an older teenager at that time and was so impressed with the United States and what they did with the Marshall Plan after the war. I told her about it then. She was lying as that was when the Marshall plan was put to work. If you are interested please read my posts. It is what made me interested in the US and is one of the life long things that has been done by your country that keeps me on these threads. Please take the time to read my post. thanks .Shirley

* here is the link -- it is at the bottom of the page in answer to Joey's claim that the history books have been altered after l950. I was so ticked off I answered her with the truth about what the US did at that time

http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-320773-14.html*


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> May I ask those of you who are interested to read my post in answer to Joey on the site about Obama -- she states that history was changed and nothing before l950 in the history books are true.
> I was an older teenager at that time and was so impressed with the United States and what they did with the Marshall Plan after the war. I told her about it then. She was lying as that was when the Marshall plan was put to work. If you are interested please read my posts. It is what made me interested in the US and is one of the life long things that has been done by your country that keeps me on these threads. Please take the time to read my post. thanks .Shirley
> 
> * here is the link -- it is at the bottom of the page in answer to Joey's claim that the history books have been altered after l950. I was so ticked off I answered her with the truth about what the US did at that time
> ...


I read it Shirley and liked what you had to say.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> May I ask those of you who are interested to read my post in answer to Joey on the site about Obama -- she states that history was changed and nothing before l950 in the history books are true.
> I was an older teenager at that time and was so impressed with the United States and what they did with the Marshall Plan after the war. I told her about it then. She was lying as that was when the Marshall plan was put to work. If you are interested please read my posts. It is what made me interested in the US and is one of the life long things that has been done by your country that keeps me on these threads. Please take the time to read my post. thanks .Shirley


 This is not quite answering your question, but many things have happened since the 1950s.

I remember when I was studying history for my Junior Certificate in 1956 and being told by a Professor of History at the University of Western Australia that the history that was taught to school children was not always 100% accurate. He said that it was not until students attended University and had access to more accurate documents would they gain a truer grasp and understanding of the facts. He also said that some schools favoured a slant on history that was more geared towards their own particular religious outlook than the truth of the matter. This can be seen in some states in the USA where certain politicians would like to monitor what is taught in schools and to eliminate anything that disagrees with their religious beliefs. Creationism and divine intervention spring to mind.

He said history was not wrong but it did contain some line errors.

If I say that history has not been changed but some of the facts have been tweaked, does that make sense?

Prior to 1950 history was taught as a matter of dates and events, that has not changed, but what has changed is that some of the details that were reported in many history books were not exactly true. This is due to many factors. History is always written by the 'male victors; after all it is called history.......his story. Errors crept in due to many, many factors. The desire to make 'you and your compatriots' out to be heroes is one, when in fact 'you and your compatriots' may be exaggerating or covering up a lot of facts you do not want known. Think of the details that were released by the powers to be when the Russian Tsar and his family were executed. So many of those facts were later proved not only be incorrect but also implausible.

Another reason is the fact that at the time of writing many historical documents were still subject to secrecy and the general public had no way of knowing what was in those documents. Cabinet papers and other important papers are now released after a given number of years and past mistakes can be corrected.

This happens in every country. Also it can happen that middle level officials will often only report what they believe their superiors want to hear or what they think will promote their careers. We saw this with the Kursk submarine tragedy. The full extent of the tragedy was not released to the Soviet authorities by those on the scene as the officials on the scene were more interested in covering their own backs than telling the truth. One Commander did not want to tell Putin of the exact extent of the disaster because he did not want to face Putins anger.

Some minor details regarding battles fought during the American Civil war only came to light with the discovery and release of personal diaries of many who fought in the American Civil War.

We saw it in Australia with the details of the bombing of Darwin. We did not learn about the bombing of Darwin at school, it was hushed up. It is only in the last 20 years that the true horror of the bombing of Darwin has come to light.

It is also the same with the Pinjarra massacre. The history books of the 1950s do not tell the truth, it is only since the Aboriginals have found their own voice that the truth of the tragedy has come to light. Many of those who pushed to have the truth aired were survivors or children of the survivors of the massacre.

Another reason for tweaking the facts, or errors, is that more and more papers are being released from private family collections and placed in archives. Todays students are far better researchers than the students of the 1950s; they also have far more material at their disposal.

It was not widely known in the 1950s that Stalin had all the rooms at the Potsdam conference bugged, but this fact has since come to light.

The details of what was and what was not known about the Japanese invasion plans in the Pacific before 1941 are still open to discussion. This is also true to the Communist take over in China and the setting up of the alternative Chinese Government in Taiwan. There was a lot of covering up there by some USA officials.

Details of Churchills decision for the Dardanelles blockade and invasion are still coming to light.

Question here. What do you know of the attack on the Sui-ho Dam?

History books are littered with inaccuracies which are now being corrected in the light of new evidence.

If anyone is still basing their history on what was taught in primary school text books in the 1950s then they may be basing their outlook of history in inaccuracies. Even history books used in junior high schools were not accurate. Research carried out by scholars at Universities, especially students undertaking doctoral or post-doctoral studies are more to be relied upon than school text books.

The powers to be, whoever they be, are not changing history but are correcting errors.

Just my opinion and many may think it is just another rant by the down under nutter.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

I think Joey meant that anyone writing history books now (or from the 1950's on) are rewriting history to fit their own (political) agenda.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> I think Joey meant that anyone writing history books now (or from the 1950's on) are rewriting history to fit their own (political) agenda.


Just another of Joey's delusions. She has many.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> May I ask those of you who are interested to read my post in answer to Joey on the site about Obama -- she states that history was changed and nothing before l950 in the history books are true.
> I was an older teenager at that time and was so impressed with the United States and what they did with the Marshall Plan after the war. I told her about it then. She was lying as that was when the Marshall plan was put to work. If you are interested please read my posts. It is what made me interested in the US and is one of the life long things that has been done by your country that keeps me on these threads. Please take the time to read my post. thanks .Shirley
> 
> * here is the link -- it is at the bottom of the page in answer to Joey's claim that the history books have been altered after l950. I was so ticked off I answered her with the truth about what the US did at that time
> ...


Thanks, Designer.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Just another of Joey's delusions. She has many.


No argument from me about that!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Beautiful work, sweaters and grandsons. Thanks for sharing.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Heres an experiment. These are my grandsons in the sweaters i made them a couple of years ago.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Don't worry about the picture. No light and not much room to work. Soon it will be easier. Thanks for sharing.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And baby d...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Great smile and I love those curls and eyelashes.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Here's Max now.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Two people can rarely plan a successful lunch date. A conspiracy among thousands? Highly unlikely, at best. IMHO



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It doesn't affect me on a daily basis. I'm not worried about. I just live my life. But I do believe in conspiracies.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> WOW! how exciting! you take care and try to keep your feet up every once in awhile each day. you will be run off your feet if you are not careful. Wish I could help but likely couldn't even if I was there. you must remember to take care of yourself for Max's sake. He will be sort of left out of the picture with 4 new babies and he will have you, lucky Max.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Our EveeeeM is a true scholar and a gentlewoman. 

All history is revisionist history - but the 20th century was filmed so it will be a bit harder to distort the truth. Grade School and high school textbooks are written so not to offend the big markets like Texas. Original source documents are always the best way to learn history.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> Our EveeeeM is a true scholar and a gentlewoman.
> 
> All history is revisionist history - but the 20th century was filmed so it will be a bit harder to distort the truth. Grade School and high school textbooks are written so not to offend the big markets like Texas. Original source documents are always the best way to learn history.


Good points. As for Texas - they want the revisions to line up with their religious beliefs. Wrong on so many levels, but no doubt supported by Joey and others like her. Who is persecuting who in that case?


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Heres an experiment. These are my grandsons in the sweaters i made them a couple of years ago.


Knitter from Nebraska
handsome fellows in pretty sweaters.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> The Sunni's again. They are like the right wing Christian fundamentalists here in the states. I believe it was you who posted that democracy would never work in that region. Too many tribes with different beliefs.


Maybe our form of government isn't a good fit for some countries. Maybe there are other ways to govern that can give people equal rights and justice that aren't cookie cutter versions of the US. I any idea what these alternate forms of government might look like. I'm just saying maybe one size doesn't fit all.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Maybe our form of government isn't a good fit for some countries. Maybe there are other ways to govern that can give people equal rights and justice that aren't cookie cutter versions of the US. I any idea what these alternate forms of government might look like. I'm just saying maybe one size doesn't fit all.


I think you are spot on, Maid. The US has interfered in far too many ways in the internal affairs of other countries. Countries and cultures they don't understand. That's why it doesn't work and never will.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> Our EveeeeM is a true scholar and a gentlewoman.
> 
> All history is revisionist history - but the 20th century was filmed so it will be a bit harder to distort the truth. Grade School and high school textbooks are written so not to offend the big markets like Texas. Original source documents are always the best way to learn history.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree 100%. Democracy is a good fit for USA. We fought and won our freedom and it is deeply engrained in our culture. Iraqi Democracy after hundreds of years of war lords is like trying to get a 4 year old to try sushi. Futile. Countries must find a form of government that works for them. IMHO



MaidInBedlam said:


> Maybe our form of government isn't a good fit for some countries. Maybe there are other ways to govern that can give people equal rights and justice that aren't cookie cutter versions of the US. I any idea what these alternate forms of government might look like. I'm just saying maybe one size doesn't fit all.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm sorry for offending you. It was not my intent. I want so badly to explain but then I think that I will just make it worse. So I will just shut up now.


What makes you think you offended me? Not at all. Please don't shut up. I was offering to shut up myself, about some topics.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> These are beautiful, Shirley! I wish I had half your talent.


And I wish I had half your grandchildren. Those are beautiful, too.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We can all share grandchildren. It takes a village.



Poor Purl said:


> And I wish I had half your grandchildren. Those are beautiful, too.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

damemary said:


> I agree 100%. Democracy is a good fit for USA. We fought and won our freedom and it is deeply engrained in our culture. Iraqi Democracy after hundreds of years of war lords is like trying to get a 4 year old to try sushi. Futile. Countries must find a form of government that works for them. IMHO


Don't forget the religious element. Democracy as we know it simply does not fit with the kind of religious extremism and division that one sees in the mid-east. Religious tensions have been simmering there for eons.

Thomas Friedman wrote eloquently about the historical roots of the mid-eastern cultures. They are historically Bedouins where power was everything and where the struggle for it was absolutely accepted. War lords fit well with that culture - as did Sadaam Hussein and the Ayatollahs. Once we undermined their power, chaos and the unleashing of ancient hatreds was the predictable outcome. Advancing technology also plays a part. It is no longer possible for those in power to control all information - even ISIL won't be able to do that.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Don't forget the religious element. Democracy as we know it simply does not fit with the kind of religious extremism and division that one sees in the mid-east. Religious tensions have been simmering there for eons.
> 
> Thomas Friedman wrote eloquently about the historical roots of the mid-eastern cultures. They are historically Bedouins where power was everything and where the struggle for it was absolutely accepted. War lords fit well with that culture - as did Sadaam Hussein and the Ayatollahs. Once we undermined their power, chaos and the unleashing of ancient hatreds was the predictable outcome. Advancing technology also plays a part. It is no longer possible for those in power to control all information - even ISIL won't be able to do that.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Great point.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> May I ask those of you who are interested to read my post in answer to Joey on the site about Obama -- she states that history was changed and nothing before l950 in the history books are true.
> I was an older teenager at that time and was so impressed with the United States and what they did with the Marshall Plan after the war. I told her about it then. She was lying as that was when the Marshall plan was put to work. If you are interested please read my posts. It is what made me interested in the US and is one of the life long things that has been done by your country that keeps me on these threads. Please take the time to read my post. thanks .Shirley
> 
> * here is the link -- it is at the bottom of the page in answer to Joey's claim that the history books have been altered after l950. I was so ticked off I answered her with the truth about what the US did at that time
> ...


I just assumed that joeysomma had gotten all the history of the US turned around and I'm sticking with that. Sure, the textbooks contain some correct dates and names, but that's where most of them part company with the truth. IMO, history text books are intended to brainwash young people. Where would we get all our cannon fodder if young people actually knew a thing or two about US and World History, among other things?


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Don't forget the religious element. Democracy as we know it simply does not fit with the kind of religious extremism and division that one sees in the mid-east. Religious tensions have been simmering there for eons.
> 
> Thomas Friedman wrote eloquently about the historical roots of the mid-eastern cultures. They are historically Bedouins where power was everything and where the struggle for it was absolutely accepted. War lords fit well with that culture - as did Sadaam Hussein and the Ayatollahs. Once we undermined their power, chaos and the unleashing of ancient hatreds was the predictable outcome. Advancing technology also plays a part. It is no longer possible for those in power to control all information - even ISIL won't be able to do that.


This is so true. :thumbup:


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Good morning, Eve! Nice to see you around here.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Good morning, Eve! Nice to see you around here.


Thanks. I have been having my own personal share of heat over here, too lengthy and perhaps boring to relate. Think my son and two meltdowns in the last week, throw in a minor traffic accident where no one was hurt but my son's car. I thought maybe $1,000 damage, panel beaters say perhaps over $3,000. The car is a 2003 model and insured for $3,800 so the insurer may elect to write it off. Trouble is it is mechanically 100% and had 4 new tyres just before Christmas, plus a new battery. The other car did not stop, took off like the proverbial 'bat out of hell' and did a right hand turn at the next corner. We waited to see if he came back, but no. Insurance company gave me the 3rd degree regarding make, registration number, driver's description, etc . All I could say was "It was a blue car and I am sorry I do not know what make. I think it was a male driver and I have no idea of the rego details." One good thing, I could fill in the police report online, so much easier than filling in all those pages by hand. Just have to wait to see what happens. If son has to buy a new car, then so be it. He is not thinking brand new car but perhaps one that is 1 or 2 years old. This one was 1 year old when he bought it after his accident in 2004. In the mean time I guess I have a new job, chauffeuring him to and from work for 6.00 am starts, or earlier. Oh, son was driving when we had the accident, not me.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Thanks. I have been having my own personal share of heat over here, too lengthy and perhaps boring to relate. Think my son and two meltdowns in the last week, throw in a minor traffic accident where no one was hurt but my son's car. I thought maybe $1,000 damage, panel beaters say perhaps over $3,000. The car is a 2003 model and insured for $3,800 so the insurer may elect to write it off. Trouble is it is mechanically 100% and had 4 new tyres just before Christmas, plus a new battery. The other car did not stop, took off like the proverbial 'bat out of hell' and did a right hand turn at the next corner. We waited to see if he came back, but no. Insurance company gave me the 3rd degree regarding make, registration number, driver's description, etc . All I could say was "It was a blue car and I am sorry I do not know what make. I think it was a male driver and I have no idea of the rego details." One good thing, I could fill in the police report online, so much easier than filling in all those pages by hand. Just have to wait to see what happens. If son has to buy a new car, then so be it. He is not thinking brand new car but perhaps one that is 1 or 2 years old. This one was 1 year old when he bought it after his accident in 2004. In the mean time I guess I have a new job, chauffeuring him to and from work for 6.00 am starts, or earlier. Oh, son was driving when we had the accident, not me.


Sorry for your troubles and I hope things all work out well in the end.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> I think Joey meant that anyone writing history books now (or from the 1950's on) are rewriting history to fit their own (political) agenda.


I agree but to say that in the early fifties, anything written about that time is not truthful is not correct. It is one thing in your history (and I am sure there are many others) that is known to be truthful all around the world. I do think that a lot of Americans have either not learned about, or refused to believe there was a Marshall Plan. It is a time when I know the truth was given because I grew up in it.

I am not a researcher, I don't pretend to be but I was watching what the Marshall plan did for the western world, especially Europe and the facts about it are the truth.

Joey makes flat statements that aren't even checked for the truth. I think it is good to remind some of those Republicans as well as some of us liberals what your country really did from l947 for at least l0 years. You brought the world back from utter chaos as well as starvation and other after effects of that dreadful war. As far as history is concerned, yes I believe there have been corrections made as more info is concerned but Joey says everything after l950 was changed - not true. I think every American child should be taught about the Marshall plan and told what it accomplished. It is something Every American should be proud of in my opinion. I would imagine some young Americans have never even heard of it. I also imagine that some Older Americans would be happy to call it a lie for political purposes.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I agree but to say that in the early fifties, anything written about that time is not truthful is not correct. It is one thing in your history (and I am sure there are many others) that is known to be truthful all around the world. I do think that a lot of Americans have either not learned about, or refused to believe there was a Marshall Plan. It is a time when I know the truth was given because I grew up in it.
> 
> I am not a researcher, I don't pretend to be but I was watching what the Marshall plan did for the western world, especially Europe and the facts about it are the truth.
> 
> Joey makes flat statements that aren't even checked for the truth. I think it is good to remind some of those Republicans as well as some of us liberals what your country really did from l947 for at least l0 years. You brought the world back from utter chaos as well as starvation and other after effects of that dreadful war. As far as history is concerned, yes I believe there have been corrections made as more info is concerned but Joey says everything after l950 was changed - not true. I think every American child should be taught about the Marshall plan and told what it accomplished. It is something Every American should be proud of in my opinion. I would imagine some young Americans have never even heard of it. I also imagine that some Older Americans would be happy to call it a lie for political purposes.


We need to remember that Joey is the exception. To every common-sense rule. She does NOT represent the majority of Americans or what they believe.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I just assumed that joeysomma had gotten all the history of the US turned around and I'm sticking with that. Sure, the textbooks contain some correct dates and names, but that's where most of them part company with the truth. IMO, history text books are intended to brainwash young people. Where would we get all our cannon fodder if young people actually knew a thing or two about US and World History, among other things?


You nailed it before when you said history is mainly "his story" and a lot was written to make Americans seem exceptional and heroic and the truth be damned.

I think Joey's problem has a slightly different twist. Remember, she has a deeply-seated rage against anything liberal and also believes that universities are nothing more than hotbeds of liberal propaganda and activism. The right wing has been promoting this belief aggressively for their OWN agenda - which is to inflame the fundamentalists and dumb-down education. Joey has fallen for this wholeheartedly. She is also a sucker for conspiracy theories, so would naturally believe "rewriting history" is a plot being carried out by the academic elite. Does she provide specifics? Does she research beyond finding a quote from one of her extremist sources? Ahhh - no.

We will probably never know what truths have been lost in the fog of time, particularly the truth about the motives and political maneuvering that shaped history. I think people with any critical thinking skills at all understand that one's point of view always skews accounts of events and therefore seek multiple sources of information in order to come to a conclusion about what is true and what information can be trusted.

Joey lacks this ability. When one gets information from the kind of sources Joey listens to - Limbaugh, Hannity and Pat Robertson and their ilk - it is no wonder her views are distorted. Remember, critical thinking is a crucial skill. Joey seems to function without that ability. She can memorize rules and words but concepts are beyond her grasp.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> I think Joey meant that anyone writing history books now (or from the 1950's on) are rewriting history to fit their own (political) agenda.


which she assumes is necessarily incorrect.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You nailed it before when you said history is mainly "his story" and a lot was written to make Americans seem exceptional and heroic and the truth be damned.
> 
> I think Joey's problem has a slightly different twist. Remember, she has a deeply-seated rage against anything liberal and also believes that universities are nothing more than hotbeds of liberal propaganda and activism. The right wing has been promoting this belief aggressively for their OWN agenda - which is to inflame the fundamentalists and dumb-down education. Joey has fallen for this wholeheartedly. She is also a sucker for conspiracy theories, so would naturally believe "rewriting history" is a plot being carried out by the academic elite. Does she provide specifics? Does she research beyond finding a quote from one of her extremist sources? Ahhh - no.
> 
> ...


DGreen
how did our liberal education make us so smart? I have the feeling that Joey has been bombarded with "strange stuff" since early childhood and she never could escape the claws she was held in. Thinking is a problem for her and much more so critical thinking.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Just another of Joey's delusions. She has many.


And not one of them is at all interesting.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Two people can rarely plan a successful lunch date. A conspiracy among thousands? Highly unlikely, at best. IMHO


here I have to disagree with you. Not about the lunch date; that's a certainty. But I think ALEC is a conspiracy that is, unfortunately, becoming too successful.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> how did our liberal education make us so smart? I have the feeling that Joey has been bombarded with "strange stuff" since early childhood and she never could escape the claws she was held in. Thinking is a problem for her and much more so critical thinking.


IMO

Yes, Joey's thinking skills have been stifled by her religious faith (remember, she says she gave her life to Jesus at age 8 which is just about where her use of logic halted). It has been my observation that fundamental Christianity discourages all critical thinking. She never learned to think critically in the first place. After all, all the answers are right there in the bible and from Hannity and Robertson. She evidently sees no reason to question the bible or those charlatans.

Her brain has atrophied.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> here I have to disagree with you. Not about the lunch date; that's a certainty. But I think ALEC is a conspiracy that is, unfortunately, becoming too successful.


Right you are, Purl. ALEC is a true menace. Backed by the Kochs and other 1%ers.

Sadly, the majority of our Arizona legislators are members, which is why my hair is on fire to fight them.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> which she assumes is necessarily incorrect.


Agree


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Right you are, Purl. ALEC is a true menace. Backed by the Kochs and other 1%ers.
> 
> Sadly, the majority of our Arizona legislators are members, which is why my hair is on fire to fight them.


I so agree. If we ignore ALEC and their Machiavellian agenda we do so at our own peril.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I so agree. If we ignore ALEC and their Machiavellian agenda we do so at our own peril.


Cheeky, have you seen their actual agenda? Pretty shocking. I have a copy if you're interested in seeing it.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Cheeky, have you seen their actual agenda? Pretty shocking. I have a copy if you're interested in seeing it.


Post it for all. Thanks.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> Post it for all. Thanks.


ALEC CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT AGENDA

1.) Term limits: Levin proposes limiting the tenure of Senators and Representatives to no more than 12 years.

2.) Repealing the 17th Amendment: Levin argues in favor of repealing the 17th Amendment, thus returning the election of U.S. Senators to state legislatures. The 17th Amendment was ratified during the American progressive movement as a way of giving power to the people, but Levin argues its repeal would ensure that state sovereignty is protected.

3.) Judiciary Power Check: Levin proposes 12-year term limits for justices of the Supreme Court. Additionally, he proposes creating a procedure for Congress and the state legislatures to overturn court decisions with a three-fifths vote.

4.) Limitation of Taxation and Spending: Levins balanced budget amendment would cap federal spending at 17.5 percent of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and require a super majority, or three-fifths vote, of Congress to raise the debt ceiling. In addition, he proposes limiting the federal governments ability to tax individuals at 15 percent. On the cheekier side, he proposes moving tax day to the day before federal elections.

5.) Reining in Regulations and Bureaucracy: Levin proposes an amendment to require all federal agencies to be subjected to stand-alone reauthorization every three years. He also proposes an automatic sunset provision for all federal regulations.

6.) Cabining the Commerce Clause: Levins proposed amendment would clarify that the Commerce Clause does not delegate supreme regulatory authority to the federal government.

7.) Limiting the federal governments power to confiscate private property.

8.) Make it easier for states to amend the Constitution: Under this amendment, only two-thirds, rather than three-fourths, of states would need to vote in favor of proposing an amendment.

9.) Giving states the ability to override Congress: Levins proposal would allow states to override federal law by a majority vote in two-thirds of state legislatures.

10.) Election Integrity: The last of Levins amendments would enact a nationwide photo ID requirement for federal elections and establish limits on early voting.

Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?
i=c2f_1384695404#ieKCq3PVMDdhwm2Z.99


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> ALEC CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT AGENDA
> 
> 1.) Term limits: Levin proposes limiting the tenure of Senators and Representatives to no more than 12 years.
> 
> ...


This is extremely scary!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Thanks to all for the compliments. I'll try not to be too obnoxious now that I can post pics. But one more. Here are the sunsuits I knitted for the babies.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks to all for the compliments. I'll try not to be too obnoxious now that I can post pics. But one more. Here are the sunsuits I knitted for the babies.


Gorgeous work! How exciting to be able to knit for them. But where do you find the time? Are you Wonder Woman or what??

Please send pics. Never obnoxious. Welcome and enjoyed.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks to all for the compliments. I'll try not to be too obnoxious now that I can post pics. But one more. Here are the sunsuits I knitted for the babies.


Very cute!
I'm getting the feeling that I hold the record for the world's slowest knitter. I see all these beautiful knitted items and always wonder how everyone gets so much done! And I don't even have any grandchildren to knit for. (OK, I ended the sentence with a preposition.)


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Keep posting Nebs. Your knitting is great.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> Very cute!
> I'm getting the feeling that I hold the record for the world's slowest knitter. I see all these beautiful knitted items and always wonder how everyone gets so much done! And I don't even have any grandchildren to knit for. (OK, I ended the sentence with a preposition.)


Ha Ha. Please rewrite the last sentence correctly.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Gorgeous work! How exciting to be able to knit for them. But where do you find the time? Are you Wonder Woman or what??
> 
> Please send pics. Never obnoxious. Welcome and enjoyed.


Thank you, so much! I just knit whenever I can. I am kind of fast. I started a sleep gown that dil wants but its for next winter, so I set it aside and started knitting hats. I'm on the fourth one. I figure they'll need lots of hats. I've got an awesome pattern for a cabled sunsuit that I want to knit, but the pattern is wonky and I haven't had time to see if I can figure it out. Following the directions, you don't end up with the right number of stitches. I couldn't find erata and I posted it under the main section, but no one knew what to do with it. So, I'm just filling in with hats for now.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> Very cute!
> I'm getting the feeling that I hold the record for the world's slowest knitter. I see all these beautiful knitted items and always wonder how everyone gets so much done! And I don't even have any grandchildren to knit for. (OK, I ended the sentence with a preposition.)


Sometimes it just takes too much effort to reword. We understand.  Besides, for which to knit, sounds funny. Is that even correct? I'm tired. I give up.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Ha Ha. Please rewrite the last sentence correctly.


Ah, but why?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Keep posting Nebs. Your knitting is great.


Thanks, SQM!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Ah, but why?


CQ and I bonded over adverbs and I like to talk grammar with her. She ended the last sentence with a preposition without an object. Even tho that is allowed now, I am old fashioned and try not to end sentences with prepositions.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks to all for the compliments. I'll try not to be too obnoxious now that I can post pics. But one more. Here are the sunsuits I knitted for the babies.


Adorable, great job KFN!!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> CQ and I bonded over adverbs and I like to talk grammar with her. She ended the last sentence with a preposition without an object. Even tho that is allowed now, I am old fashioned and try not to end sentences with prepositions.


 :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> Adorable, great job KFN!!


Thanks, Cindy!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Does Australia have uninsured/underinsured coverage? What a week you're having. May it improve promptly.



EveMCooke said:


> Thanks. I have been having my own personal share of heat over here, too lengthy and perhaps boring to relate. Think my son and two meltdowns in the last week, throw in a minor traffic accident where no one was hurt but my son's car. I thought maybe $1,000 damage, panel beaters say perhaps over $3,000. The car is a 2003 model and insured for $3,800 so the insurer may elect to write it off. Trouble is it is mechanically 100% and had 4 new tyres just before Christmas, plus a new battery. The other car did not stop, took off like the proverbial 'bat out of hell' and did a right hand turn at the next corner. We waited to see if he came back, but no. Insurance company gave me the 3rd degree regarding make, registration number, driver's description, etc . All I could say was "It was a blue car and I am sorry I do not know what make. I think it was a male driver and I have no idea of the rego details." One good thing, I could fill in the police report online, so much easier than filling in all those pages by hand. Just have to wait to see what happens. If son has to buy a new car, then so be it. He is not thinking brand new car but perhaps one that is 1 or 2 years old. This one was 1 year old when he bought it after his accident in 2004. In the mean time I guess I have a new job, chauffeuring him to and from work for 6.00 am starts, or earlier. Oh, son was driving when we had the accident, not me.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Dangnabit! They finally have to figure it out.



Poor Purl said:


> here I have to disagree with you. Not about the lunch date; that's a certainty. But I think ALEC is a conspiracy that is, unfortunately, becoming too successful.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Beautiful work for dear babies. Keep pictures coming and tell Max we want to hear from him too. Maybe you can send a picture of his art work.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks to all for the compliments. I'll try not to be too obnoxious now that I can post pics. But one more. Here are the sunsuits I knitted for the babies.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Don't you dare. We know you know how to do it right. Love to hear from you any time.



SQM said:


> Ha Ha. Please rewrite the last sentence correctly.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Very cute!
> I'm getting the feeling that I hold the record for the world's slowest knitter. I see all these beautiful knitted items and always wonder how everyone gets so much done! And I don't even have any grandchildren to knit for. (OK, I ended the sentence with a preposition.)


Winston Churchill: That is the kind of nonsense up with which I will not put.

As far as I know, the only person around who goes out of her way not to end a sentence with a prep. is KPG, and you know how great her writing style is.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Sometimes it just takes too much effort to reword. We understand.  Besides, for which to knit, sounds funny. Is that even correct? I'm tired. I give up.


It's correct, but it's wrong.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> CQ and I bonded over adverbs and I like to talk grammar with her. She ended the last sentence with a preposition without an object. Even tho that is allowed now, I am old fashioned and try not to end sentences with prepositions.


With what do you try not to end sentences?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks to all for the compliments. I'll try not to be too obnoxious now that I can post pics. But one more. Here are the sunsuits I knitted for the babies.


Those are so sweet Shirley


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Winston Churchill: That is the kind of nonsense up with which I will not put.
> 
> As far as I know, the only person around who goes out of her way not to end a sentence with a prep. is KPG, and you know how great her writing style is.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> Does Australia have uninsured/underinsured coverage? What a week you're having. May it improve promptly.


We have compulsory third party insurance, included with our car registrations. This is to cover personal injury, but it does not cover the driver if he is at fault. We are in the process of introducing 'no fault' third party insurance to cover this aspect. Unfortunately it will add to the cost of the insurance. Currently, the annual licence fee on my son's car is $160 but the compulsory third party insurance is $232. With the introduction of the 'no fault' insurance this insurance cost will go up by over $100 a year.

We also have Vehicle Insurance on the car, and this can be either 'declared value' or 'market value'. We opt for 'declared value' but the company reduce this every year otherwise the car could be over insured and the company would have to pay this figure in the case of a write off. We also have 'third party, fire and theft' insurance, which covers another car in the event of an accident, or fire and theft to the owner's car. Unfortunately a lot of drivers do not have any insurance, so if they hit you, you have to sue them to recover your costs. Kai's policy coverage has gradually reduced from $12,000 when he bought the car in 2004 to the present $3,800. He pays $601 a year for this insurance, and this is with the maximum 55% no claim bonus. He pays extra premiums to remove the excess on claims and is also allowed one free windscreen a year, but he did not remove the 'no claim warranty' so this will drop from the maximum of 55% to 40% next year, meaning his premiums will go up. If the cost of the repairs is close to the sum the car is insured for then the insurance company has the option to write the car off. This may be an option for some if the car is an old banger, but Kai always has the car serviced regularly so it is mechanically in top condition. He also put 4 new tyres on just before Christmas and a new battery in January. Writing the car off also means he has to pay to buy a new car. I have not heard back from either the insurer or the panel beater today, so I still do not know whether they will repair the car or write it off. He has the money from his father's will to pay for a new car but did not want to buy a new car for a couple of years yet.

The driver that hit us sped up after he hit us and did a right hand turn at the next street. We waited because we thought he would come back, but he didn't, so the police term this as a 'hit and run'. It is illegal to leave the scene of an accident without checking that the other people are OK and then exchanging details. It could be that the other driver was driving on a suspended licence. I thought he could have been drinking but this could not be proven without the police being called and they would not come out for a minor prang, especially if no one was injured.

What annoyed me was the attitude of the Insurance company. They seemed to be laying all the negatives out and they kept asking me if Kai wanted to proceed with the claim. I war horrified by the quote for the repairs, over $3,000, I thought the repairs would be $1,000 to maybe $1,500. Most panel beaters do not do uninsured work these days, I think they can load the claims to the insurance companies. You have to take your car to the Insurer's preferred panel beating workshop.

I have household insurance to pay for the damage to the two panels in the garage and the fence panels that Kai smashed in his meltdown but there is a $250 excess on house insurance claims. I am looking at leaving the fence down at that point, my daughter says it lets more light into the garden. It is not the perimeter fence but the fence around the inner courtyard at the back. The garage was built in 1956 and is fibro/asbestos so there is the costs of the 'safe removal of asbestos products' to consider if I have the two panels replaced by a contractor under the insurance claim, so I am looking at alternative fixing techniques. Perhaps pine boards on that section of the garage, easier to install than the fibro sheets. The garage is tall, so the sheets are over 10 ft in length.

Until the car is repaired or replaced Kai does not want to drive it, so muggins here is the chauffeur to take him to and from work. The other damage he caused was negligible, broken flower pot, broken garden light, flattened plants, smashed water bottle. The garden bench and water fountain were not damaged, luckily. Boy he is a problem when he is upset and goes into an autistic meltdown. He is also very scary.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It's correct, but it's wrong.


Cheeky here. For whom to knit.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> With what do you try not to end sentences?


I think ending sentences with prepositions is just not in.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> We have compulsory third party insurance, included with our car registrations. This is to cover personal injury, but it does not cover the driver if he is at fault. We are in the process of introducing 'no fault' third party insurance to cover this aspect. Unfortunately it will add to the cost of the insurance. Currently, the annual licence fee on my son's car is $160 but the compulsory third party insurance is $232. With the introduction of the 'no fault' insurance this insurance cost will go up by over $100 a year.
> 
> We also have Vehicle Insurance on the car, and this can be either 'declared value' or 'market value'. We opt for 'declared value' but the company reduce this every year otherwise the car could be over insured and the company would have to pay this figure in the case of a write off. We also have 'third party, fire and theft' insurance, which covers another car in the event of an accident, or fire and theft to the owner's car. Unfortunately a lot of drivers do not have any insurance, so if they hit you, you have to sue them to recover your costs. Kai's policy coverage has gradually reduced from $12,000 when he bought the car in 2004 to the present $3,800. He pays $601 a year for this insurance, and this is with the maximum 55% no claim bonus. He pays extra premiums to remove the excess on claims and is also allowed one free windscreen a year, but he did not remove the 'no claim warranty' so this will drop from the maximum of 55% to 40% next year, meaning his premiums will go up. If the cost of the repairs is close to the sum the car is insured for then the insurance company has the option to write the car off. This may be an option for some if the car is an old banger, but Kai always has the car serviced regularly so it is mechanically in top condition. He also put 4 new tyres on just before Christmas and a new battery in January. Writing the car off also means he has to pay to buy a new car. I have not heard back from either the insurer or the panel beater today, so I still do not know whether they will repair the car or write it off. He has the money from his father's will to pay for a new car but did not want to buy a new car for a couple of years yet.
> 
> ...


I am sorry about this accident. Our kids kill us in many ways.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> I think ending sentences with prepositions is just not in.


Did you, perchance, have your knuckles whacked with the ruler when you committed such an offence when you were a child. I find myself mentally correcting other people when they end a sentence with a preposition. Others I love: a green lady's cardigan instead of a lady's green cardigan. I also tend to count the 'errs, ahas, umms, you know what I mean, look' or other unnecessary words and sound with which people tend to pepper their conversations. Oops, I nearly wrote "which other people tend to pepper their conversations with", but the ruler descended for a quick, sharp smack across the knuckles. Ouch, it hurt.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

No hitting. I went to public schools where they could only bore you to death. I guess I have tried to loosen up my writing but my co-author is a stickler for old grammar rules so I am conscious of it most of the time. However, our editor made tons of mistakes and I finally had to write her and told her not to end "our sentences" with prepositions. The only thing I am concerned about oral speech is when I speak to my elderly aunt and she repeats herself over and over. A minute later she is saying the same thing. I don't care otherwise if people hem and haw. Actually, I have some older friends who are forgetting words so when I converse with them, I am supplying half the words. Does that count as talking to oneself? Do others have this problem with friends?

Hi EVeeeeeeeeM- researcher extraordinaire. You scored a huge point with your rebuttal to Mrs. Somma.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> No hitting. I went to public schools where they could only bore you to death. I guess I have tried to loosen up my writing but my co-author is a stickler for old grammar rules so I am conscious of it most of the time. However, our editor made tons of mistakes and I finally had to write her and told her not to end "our sentences" with prepositions. The only thing I am concerned about oral speech is when I speak to my elderly aunt and she repeats herself over and over. A minute later she is saying the same thing. I don't care otherwise if people hem and haw. Actually, I have some older friends who are forgetting words so when I converse with them, I am supplying half the words. Does that count as talking to oneself? Do others have this problem with friends?
> 
> Hi EVeeeeeeeeM- researcher extraordinaire. You scored a huge point with your rebuttal to Mrs. Somma.


I think, in future, I am going to follow Shirley's lead. Most of the time I tend to either ignore Joey or just glance at her posts, so in future this 'read only' modus operandi will apply. I honestly think it does not achieve anything when we take her to task but it does give her chums ammunition to fire back at us. They do not address the topic under discussion, they just shoot the messenger.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm so sorry you have to deal with this.



EveMCooke said:


> We have compulsory third party insurance, included with our car registrations. This is to cover personal injury, but it does not cover the driver if he is at fault. We are in the process of introducing 'no fault' third party insurance to cover this aspect. Unfortunately it will add to the cost of the insurance. Currently, the annual licence fee on my son's car is $160 but the compulsory third party insurance is $232. With the introduction of the 'no fault' insurance this insurance cost will go up by over $100 a year.
> 
> We also have Vehicle Insurance on the car, and this can be either 'declared value' or 'market value'. We opt for 'declared value' but the company reduce this every year otherwise the car could be over insured and the company would have to pay this figure in the case of a write off. We also have 'third party, fire and theft' insurance, which covers another car in the event of an accident, or fire and theft to the owner's car. Unfortunately a lot of drivers do not have any insurance, so if they hit you, you have to sue them to recover your costs. Kai's policy coverage has gradually reduced from $12,000 when he bought the car in 2004 to the present $3,800. He pays $601 a year for this insurance, and this is with the maximum 55% no claim bonus. He pays extra premiums to remove the excess on claims and is also allowed one free windscreen a year, but he did not remove the 'no claim warranty' so this will drop from the maximum of 55% to 40% next year, meaning his premiums will go up. If the cost of the repairs is close to the sum the car is insured for then the insurance company has the option to write the car off. This may be an option for some if the car is an old banger, but Kai always has the car serviced regularly so it is mechanically in top condition. He also put 4 new tyres on just before Christmas and a new battery in January. Writing the car off also means he has to pay to buy a new car. I have not heard back from either the insurer or the panel beater today, so I still do not know whether they will repair the car or write it off. He has the money from his father's will to pay for a new car but did not want to buy a new car for a couple of years yet.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Cheeky here. For whom to knit.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Did you, perchance, have your knuckles whacked with the ruler when you committed such an offence when you were a child. I find myself mentally correcting other people when they end a sentence with a preposition. Others I love: a green lady's cardigan instead of a lady's green cardigan. I also tend to count the 'errs, ahas, umms, you know what I mean, look' or other unnecessary words and sound with which people tend to pepper their conversations. Oops, I nearly wrote "which other people tend to pepper their conversations with", but the ruler descended for a quick, sharp smack across the knuckles. Ouch, it hurt.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

RE people repeating themselves:

This is not just a sign of old age. It may indicate neurological problems. A physical examination is indicated. IMHO



SQM said:


> No hitting. I went to public schools where they could only bore you to death. I guess I have tried to loosen up my writing but my co-author is a stickler for old grammar rules so I am conscious of it most of the time. However, our editor made tons of mistakes and I finally had to write her and told her not to end "our sentences" with prepositions. The only thing I am concerned about oral speech is when I speak to my elderly aunt and she repeats herself over and over. A minute later she is saying the same thing. I don't care otherwise if people hem and haw. Actually, I have some older friends who are forgetting words so when I converse with them, I am supplying half the words. Does that count as talking to oneself? Do others have this problem with friends?
> 
> Hi EVeeeeeeeeM- researcher extraordinaire. You scored a huge point with your rebuttal to Mrs. Somma.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I think ending sentences with prepositions is just not in.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> RE people repeating themselves:
> 
> This is not just a sign of old age. It may indicate neurological problems. A physical examination is indicated. IMHO


That's true. My mil did it so often, we'd get irritated. The, the day before she died, it was discovered that she had a huge brain tumor.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It's correct, but it's wrong.


Haha! This kept bugging me last night. Should it have been "for whom to knit"? My brain kept rolling this over and over while trying to get to sleep last night. I didnt really care but apparently my brain did. I woke up with a headache. I'm gonna stick with "knit for".


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> We have compulsory third party insurance, included with our car registrations. This is to cover personal injury, but it does not cover the driver if he is at fault. We are in the process of introducing 'no fault' third party insurance to cover this aspect. Unfortunately it will add to the cost of the insurance. Currently, the annual licence fee on my son's car is $160 but the compulsory third party insurance is $232. With the introduction of the 'no fault' insurance this insurance cost will go up by over $100 a year.
> 
> We also have Vehicle Insurance on the car, and this can be either 'declared value' or 'market value'. We opt for 'declared value' but the company reduce this every year otherwise the car could be over insured and the company would have to pay this figure in the case of a write off. We also have 'third party, fire and theft' insurance, which covers another car in the event of an accident, or fire and theft to the owner's car. Unfortunately a lot of drivers do not have any insurance, so if they hit you, you have to sue them to recover your costs. Kai's policy coverage has gradually reduced from $12,000 when he bought the car in 2004 to the present $3,800. He pays $601 a year for this insurance, and this is with the maximum 55% no claim bonus. He pays extra premiums to remove the excess on claims and is also allowed one free windscreen a year, but he did not remove the 'no claim warranty' so this will drop from the maximum of 55% to 40% next year, meaning his premiums will go up. If the cost of the repairs is close to the sum the car is insured for then the insurance company has the option to write the car off. This may be an option for some if the car is an old banger, but Kai always has the car serviced regularly so it is mechanically in top condition. He also put 4 new tyres on just before Christmas and a new battery in January. Writing the car off also means he has to pay to buy a new car. I have not heard back from either the insurer or the panel beater today, so I still do not know whether they will repair the car or write it off. He has the money from his father's will to pay for a new car but did not want to buy a new car for a couple of years yet.
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry, Eve. I can only imagine the meltdowns of an adult. When Max melts down, he throws everything within reach, I Pad, phone, lamps, chairs, you name it. I'm getting good at dodging. He purposely goes for our eyeglasses. I just had mine adjusted on Saturday and now they're bent up again. I need to find indestructable glasses. His feet and legs should be registered as deadly weapons. Most of the time he's such a sweetie. We have so much fun. But sometimes, he just explodes, seemingly over nothing.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Cheeky here. For whom to knit.


 :thumbup:


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska
adorable.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> IMO
> 
> Yes, Joey's thinking skills have been stifled by her religious faith (remember, she says she gave her life to Jesus at age 8 which is just about where her use of logic halted). It has been my observation that fundamental Christianity discourages all critical thinking. She never learned to think critically in the first place. After all, all the answers are right there in the bible and from Hannity and Robertson. She evidently sees no reason to question the bible or those charlatans.
> 
> ...


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I think, in future, I am going to follow Shirley's lead. Most of the time I tend to either ignore Joey or just glance at her posts, so in future this 'read only' modus operandi will apply. I honestly think it does not achieve anything when we take her to task but it does give her chums ammunition to fire back at us. They do not address the topic under discussion, they just shoot the messenger.


She is hoping we will get angry and attack her - although that is not in my opinion,the most important reason she comes up with these type of subjects. She gets an idea and she won't let it go and the sad thing is - I think she really believes what she is saying. I just don't wan't to argue with her as I am not going to convince her anyway and she wins. I still think she has been badly treated and knows no better.

Eve, I agree with you. For whatever reason I am going to try to just by pass her subjects and posts as that is exactly what she wants us to do. I also still feel that she knows no better (proper English?).


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> Ha Ha. Please rewrite the last sentence correctly.


SQM
cookiequeen is multilingual which influences writing.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Haha! This kept bugging me last night. Should it have been "for whom to knit"? My brain kept rolling this over and over while trying to get to sleep last night. I didnt really care but apparently my brain did. I woke up with a headache. I'm gonna stick with "knit for".


That's what I was getting at. The "rules" (grammar doesn't really have rules; it's just a description of how things are said) shouldn't make things sound silly. If they sound silly, you know you have the wrong rule.

Knit for - ever!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> She is hoping we will get angry and attack her - although that is not in my opinion,the most important reason she comes up with these type of subjects. She gets an idea and she won't let it go and the sad thing is - I think she really believes what she is saying. I just don't wan't to argue with her as I am not going to convince her anyway and she wins. I still think she has been badly treated and knows no better.
> 
> Eve, I agree with you. For whatever reason I am going to try to just by pass her subjects and posts as I think she wants us to argue, and take her on. I also still feel that she has had her share of unhappiness and believes what she posts. I believe that those reading her original posts will find them over the top but when when we start slinging nasty posts in answer they are more interested in how nasty we are. I think letting them read it and drawing their own conclusions will be better. jmo.
> 
> (proper English?).


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Thanks. I have been having my own personal share of heat over here, too lengthy and perhaps boring to relate. Think my son and two meltdowns in the last week, throw in a minor traffic accident where no one was hurt but my son's car. I thought maybe $1,000 damage, panel beaters say perhaps over $3,000. The car is a 2003 model and insured for $3,800 so the insurer may elect to write it off. Trouble is it is mechanically 100% and had 4 new tyres just before Christmas, plus a new battery. The other car did not stop, took off like the proverbial 'bat out of hell' and did a right hand turn at the next corner. We waited to see if he came back, but no. Insurance company gave me the 3rd degree regarding make, registration number, driver's description, etc . All I could say was "It was a blue car and I am sorry I do not know what make. I think it was a male driver and I have no idea of the rego details." One good thing, I could fill in the police report online, so much easier than filling in all those pages by hand. Just have to wait to see what happens. If son has to buy a new car, then so be it. He is not thinking brand new car but perhaps one that is 1 or 2 years old. This one was 1 year old when he bought it after his accident in 2004. In the mean time I guess I have a new job, chauffeuring him to and from work for 6.00 am starts, or earlier. Oh, son was driving when we had the accident, not me.


I've tried three times to reply to your post only to have my laptop dump me off KP thus losing everything I've written. I'm sorry to hear about the car accident and glad no one was hurt. Dealing with insurance companies seems to be universally unpleasant. To much red tape. Hit and run accidents seem to happen almost every day in the heavily populated urban area where I live. Bicyclists seem to be special targets. I wonder sometimes where having a sense of responsibility has gone.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Lets not be too picky about grammar and usage. This is just a knitting forum, after all. We aren't expected to follow APA rules or whatever else one is used to using. BTW, my "multilingual" skills include knowing how to say a few phrases in a variety of languages, and I can't profess fluency in any of them. Right now I think I should be studying Eve's Aussie language, which is certainly colorful (I think) and interesting.
And now that I've said all that, I think it's always nice to use enough basic written language skills to make oneself understood.
I'm waiting until it warms up to walk the dogs. It was 41 this morning and our furnace came on. My husband still doesn't believe I grew up in Minnesota.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> SQM
> cookiequeen is multilingual which influences writing.


Hi Huckle,

Grammar is a running joke between CQ and me.

Yo CQ!

What languages do you speak?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> Lets not be too picky about grammar and usage. This is just a knitting forum, after all. We aren't expected to follow APA rules or whatever else one is used to using. BTW, my "multilingual" skills include knowing how to say a few phrases in a variety of languages, and I can't profess fluency in any of them. Right now I think I should be studying Eve's Aussie language, which is certainly colorful (I think) and interesting.
> And now that I've said all that, I think it's always nice to use enough basic written language skills to make oneself understood.
> I'm waiting until it warms up to walk the dogs. It was 41 this morning and our furnace came on. My husband still doesn't believe I grew up in Minnesota.


You are kvetching about 41? Try 13. Where you are it's balmy.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

DGreen said:


> You nailed it before when you said history is mainly "his story" and a lot was written to make Americans seem exceptional and heroic and the truth be damned.
> 
> I think Joey's problem has a slightly different twist. Remember, she has a deeply-seated rage against anything liberal and also believes that universities are nothing more than hotbeds of liberal propaganda and activism. The right wing has been promoting this belief aggressively for their OWN agenda - which is to inflame the fundamentalists and dumb-down education. Joey has fallen for this wholeheartedly. She is also a sucker for conspiracy theories, so would naturally believe "rewriting history" is a plot being carried out by the academic elite. Does she provide specifics? Does she research beyond finding a quote from one of her extremist sources? Ahhh - no.
> 
> ...


People in general don't seem to read any history after they've finished public school. Some study history in college but who listens to them? I don't think joey is alone in walling herself off into a small world she finds comfortable. She does seem to be very good at particularly and deliberately avoiding the real world, however.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Lets not be too picky about grammar and usage. This is just a knitting forum, after all. We aren't expected to follow APA rules or whatever else one is used to using. BTW, my "multilingual" skills include knowing how to say a few phrases in a variety of languages, and I can't profess fluency in any of them. Right now I think I should be studying Eve's Aussie language, which is certainly colorful (I think) and interesting.
> And now that I've said all that, I think it's always nice to use enough basic written language skills to make oneself understood.
> I'm waiting until it warms up to walk the dogs. It was 41 this morning and our furnace came on. My husband still doesn't believe I grew up in Minnesota.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

My grammar used to be very good and so was my spelling, the older I get the less this is the case. I just will have to carry on with my regular mistakes but I know none of you really worry about it too much. I am inclinded to type what I am thinking and sometimes the grammar goes by the wayside :shock:    :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Terrible and dangerous syndrome. Hope a way to deal with it is found. In the meantime, thank heavens for Moms and Grandmas.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm so sorry, Eve. I can only imagine the meltdowns of an adult. When Max melts down, he throws everything within reach, I Pad, phone, lamps, chairs, you name it. I'm getting good at dodging. He purposely goes for our eyeglasses. I just had mine adjusted on Saturday and now they're bent up again. I need to find indestructable glasses. His feet and legs should be registered as deadly weapons. Most of the time he's such a sweetie. We have so much fun. But sometimes, he just explodes, seemingly over nothing.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I've just unwatched her most recent rant.



Designer1234 said:


> She is hoping we will get angry and attack her - although that is not in my opinion,the most important reason she comes up with these type of subjects. She gets an idea and she won't let it go and the sad thing is - I think she really believes what she is saying. I just don't wan't to argue with her as I am not going to convince her anyway and she wins. I still think she has been badly treated and knows no better.
> 
> Eve, I agree with you. For whatever reason I am going to try to just by pass her subjects and posts as that is exactly what she wants us to do. I also still feel that she knows no better (proper English?).


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> That's what I was getting at. The "rules" (grammar doesn't really have rules; it's just a description of how things are said) shouldn't make things sound silly. If they sound silly, you know you have the wrong rule.
> 
> Knit for - ever!


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: And if they sound right and you're among friends, you're fine.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I've tried three times to reply to your post only to have my laptop dump me off KP thus losing everything I've written. I'm sorry to hear about the car accident and glad no one was hurt. Dealing with insurance companies seems to be universally unpleasant. To much red tape. Hit and run accidents seem to happen almost every day in the heavily populated urban area where I live. Bicyclists seem to be special targets. I wonder sometimes where having a sense of responsibility has gone.


Sense of responsibility must have been run over by someone's conscience. Remember when 'defensive driving' was thought to be enough?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You grew up in Minnesota but you feel more like AZ now. Saving you a place.



cookiequeen said:


> Lets not be too picky about grammar and usage. This is just a knitting forum, after all. We aren't expected to follow APA rules or whatever else one is used to using. BTW, my "multilingual" skills include knowing how to say a few phrases in a variety of languages, and I can't profess fluency in any of them. Right now I think I should be studying Eve's Aussie language, which is certainly colorful (I think) and interesting.
> And now that I've said all that, I think it's always nice to use enough basic written language skills to make oneself understood.
> I'm waiting until it warms up to walk the dogs. It was 41 this morning and our furnace came on. My husband still doesn't believe I grew up in Minnesota.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm so sorry, Eve. I can only imagine the meltdowns of an adult. When Max melts down, he throws everything within reach, I Pad, phone, lamps, chairs, you name it. I'm getting good at dodging. He purposely goes for our eyeglasses. I just had mine adjusted on Saturday and now they're bent up again. I need to find indestructible glasses. His feet and legs should be registered as deadly weapons. Most of the time he's such a sweetie. We have so much fun. But sometimes, he just explodes, seemingly over nothing.


We share common experiences that people would just not believe. I describe it as walking on egg shells. Most of the time Kai is a gentle giant. He adores his sister and is very protective towards me. But when the demon enters the system, then watch out. As you say, Ipad, phone, remote control, DVDs, keys. You cannot tackle the problem when they are mid trauma as it only makes it worse and once it is over and they have slept and recuperated it is gone. They only have one state, the here and now, what is gone is forgotten, except for us on the receiving end. I know what you mean by deadly legs and feet. It is easier to try to calm a small boy than a 6 ft. adult who is also built like a Sherman tank. When Kai is mid flight I remove myself from the scene. If it is during the day I go for a walk but at night I retreat to my bedroom. I just cross my fingers that the damage is not too great.

What I find upsetting is the attitude of people who have no understanding of the situation. It is not just a case of a naughty little boy acting up, there is a reason why they explode, a genuine physical reason. Kai's paternal grandmother was always saying "The child is just thoroughly spoilt, all he needs is a good thrashing. Leave him with me for a week and I would soon put a stop to his tantrums." No, I never left Kai with her, no way. This woman was proud of the fact that she took the wooden spoon to her eldest son when he was 2 years old because he pood his pants.

I know the feeling of exploding over nothing. I learnt that it is often better to 'let it go through to the keeper' than to make an issue out of something. Making an issue only seems to make things worse.

One thing I have found with autistic children is that they are fiercely defensive of their mothers and their favourite grandmother. My son loved my mother, but avoided his paternal grandmother.

I find that Kai is affected by the weather, especially when the humidity is high. We have had very hot days lately with humidity up to 90%.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> You are kvetching about 41? Try 13. Where you are it's balmy.


That is 41F - try 41C, which is 105.8. It was supposed to be that yesterday, Tuesday, but did not quite make it. Hot last night, beautiful this morning just after 4.00 when the alarm went off. Kai started work at 5.00 am and I had to run him to work, half an hour trip each way.

Just checked, I think it is still yesterday in your neck of the woods, or is it tomorrow here?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> That is 41F - try 41C, which is 105.8. It was supposed to be that yesterday, Tuesday, but did not quite make it. Hot last night, beautiful this morning just after 4.00 when the alarm went off. Kai started work at 5.00 am and I had to run him to work, half an hour trip each way.
> 
> Just checked, I think it is still yesterday in your neck of the woods, or is it tomorrow here?


Thanks for sharing your day. Have a friend with a similar kid. He is in jail now. The mental health system in Massachusetts cannot do much for him. Do you have to live in state of fear? Are there programs that can provide supervised living for Kai?


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> Thanks for sharing your day. Have a friend with a similar kid. He is in jail now. The mental health system in Massachusetts cannot do much for him. Do you have to live in state of fear? Are there programs that can provide supervised living for Kai?


He is better off living at home with me. Supervised living is scarce and is more beneficial to people who are very badly affected with other problems. Kai is one of those who slip between the cracks. There is a lot of help for children and adults with severe disabilities. Going to gaol is always a threat that hangs over my head as police are not trained to handle situations such as an autistic meltdown. Today there is the added fear that the copper will just reach for his gun and shoot. This has happened and several people have been shot by a cop who was overreacting. One police sergeant had to admit that she was lying when she said she shot a man because he was threatening her with a knife. Lawyers had the scene reenacted in court and it was obvious that she was lying. From where she said she was standing she could not have seen if the victim had anything in his hand. He was not holding a knife. Forensic evidence proved that she was a distance from the victim when she shot him. It is in a way getting a little easier now he is older but I am fearful that he would overreact if confronted with a situation - sirens, flashing lights, screaming cops all shouting at him - I know he would just go over the top.

You might not be familiar with the Kevin Spratt case, the coppers tasered him 17 times whilst he was lying on the floor in pain. They were screaming "do you want some more". All because he would not go quietly to the cells. My eldest son was with the CCC and investigated this case and had the coppers charged. As a result poor Kevin was targeted by the police whenever he went out into the street. They would stop him and harass him because they knew how he would react. They would then charge him with disorderly behaviour.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Cheeky, have you seen their actual agenda? Pretty shocking. I have a copy if you're interested in seeing it.


Thanks for posting it here for everyone to see D.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

President Obama vetoed Keystone XL. Great news!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> President Obama vetoed Keystone XL. Great news!


I expected that. And the attempt to override his veto coming up.

I called every Democrat in the Senate yesterday who voted for the pipeline and strongly expressed my disapproval, then urged them to withdraw their support in anticipation of the next step, along with Flake and McCain of Arizona.

Anyone want phone numbers?

It's easy - just call and say you're unhappy with their vote on the Keystone Pipeline. They DO tally citizens' input, even if you don't reside in their state.

The bill could pass with only FOUR more votes than they had to pass the first time.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> We share common experiences that people would just not believe. I describe it as walking on egg shells. Most of the time Kai is a gentle giant. He adores his sister and is very protective towards me. But when the demon enters the system, then watch out. As you say, Ipad, phone, remote control, DVDs, keys. You cannot tackle the problem when they are mid trauma as it only makes it worse and once it is over and they have slept and recuperated it is gone. They only have one state, the here and now, what is gone is forgotten, except for us on the receiving end. I know what you mean by deadly legs and feet. It is easier to try to calm a small boy than a 6 ft. adult who is also built like a Sherman tank. When Kai is mid flight I remove myself from the scene. If it is during the day I go for a walk but at night I retreat to my bedroom. I just cross my fingers that the damage is not too great.
> 
> What I find upsetting is the attitude of people who have no understanding of the situation. It is not just a case of a naughty little boy acting up, there is a reason why they explode, a genuine physical reason. Kai's paternal grandmother was always saying "The child is just thoroughly spoilt, all he needs is a good thrashing. Leave him with me for a week and I would soon put a stop to his tantrums." No, I never left Kai with her, no way. This woman was proud of the fact that she took the wooden spoon to her eldest son when he was 2 years old because he pood his pants.
> 
> ...


People really don't understand. It has nothing to do with discipline. It's like a switch is flipped. I can actually see his face change right before he explodes. There are many similarities between your son and Max. Max prefers to not make eye contact, but I can say "look at me" a few times and he will. I can spend hours playing with him and he seems normal until you realize he is doing the same thing over and over and even saying the same words over and over. He has some toys that you put together with plastic nuts and bolts and a screwdriver. He says, "Let's make a airplane". Then he puts it together. I'm not allowed to participate but he wants me next to him. Then after it's put together he says, " take it apart?", and takes it apart. He does this over and over for an hour or two. While doing arts or crafts, he seems more normal and will follow directions pretty well, unless for no reason, he explodes. Then we're done. When he's playing by himself, he's mimicking things that mommy or daddy have said to him, "Why did you do that?", " Stop picking at your skin" (he has eczema and scratches til he's bruised or draws blood), and "You broke it". He repeats one of these phrases over and over, using the exact same inflection as those who said it to him., like a parrot. When he has a meltdown, he throws his head to the floor and then will get up and do it again and again. He's even purposely thrown himself down the stairs. He wants all of the lights on. Then he'll say, " You want them off? OK. You want them on? OK. You want them off? OK. You want them on? OK" over and over and over, turning the lights on and off as he says it. He can't stand to have ceiling fans on. They must be off but he will turn it on just long enough to see it start to turn and then stop it.

They've told all of this to their pediatrician and he just thinks they're not parenting right. He sent them to a behavioral specialist to learn how to do everything you'd do for a normal child. It doesn't work. He is not normal. People do think that it's them but it's not. Dils mother and brother don't want to watch Max because they can't handle him. But I will do anything for Max. He's usually such a sweet loving boy! I love him so much! I think that very soon, his parents will be ready to find a new doctor. They know something is wrong and have even wondered aloud, if he has autism.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

When I worked with kids with autism, there was one 7 year old who would repeat phrases over and over again, but it was gangster talk that he picked up from the television. He was able to read anything - I would bring in the New York Times - but he could not communicate that he understood. I should have worked with The Enquirer.

Sounds like Nebs is doing a great job with Max. Research "Floor Time" for some other strategies.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Thanks for posting it here for everyone to see D.


It pays to study the enemy. You're welcome.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> He is better off living at home with me. Supervised living is scarce and is more beneficial to people who are very badly affected with other problems. Kai is one of those who slip between the cracks. There is a lot of help for children and adults with severe disabilities. Going to gaol is always a threat that hangs over my head as police are not trained to handle situations such as an autistic meltdown. Today there is the added fear that the copper will just reach for his gun and shoot. This has happened and several people have been shot by a cop who was overreacting. One police sergeant had to admit that she was lying when she said she shot a man because he was threatening her with a knife. Lawyers had the scene reenacted in court and it was obvious that she was lying. From where she said she was standing she could not have seen if the victim had anything in his hand. He was not holding a knife. Forensic evidence proved that she was a distance from the victim when she shot him. It is in a way getting a little easier now he is older but I am fearful that he would overreact if confronted with a situation - sirens, flashing lights, screaming cops all shouting at him - I know he would just go over the top.
> 
> You might not be familiar with the Kevin Spratt case, the coppers tasered him 17 times whilst he was lying on the floor in pain. They were screaming "do you want some more". All because he would not go quietly to the cells. My eldest son was with the CCC and investigated this case and had the coppers charged. As a result poor Kevin was targeted by the police whenever he went out into the street. They would stop him and harass him because they knew how he would react. They would then charge him with disorderly behaviour.


Scary and oh so sad!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> When I worked with kids with autism, there was one 7 year old who would repeat phrases over and over again, but it was gangster talk that he picked up from the television. He was able to read anything - I would bring in the New York Times - but he could not communicate that he understood. I should have worked with The Enquirer.
> 
> Sounds like Nebs is doing a great job with Max. Research "Floor Time" for some other strategies.


Thanks, SQM! I'm kind of familiar with "Floor time". Several years back after we'd moved back to Omaha, a teacher from my daughter's old elementary school, needed a babysitter. Her two year old had been kicked out of three day cares. Several of the teachers who knew me, told her to call me. I agreed to babysit him. He hadn't been diagnosed with autism yet but I was familiar enough to see see the signs, so I read everything I could find about autism. I bought books and checked out books from the library. I did my best to use the techniques I'd read about. He wasn't diagnosed until he entered school and at that point, his mother just had him going to the after school program, so I wasn't babysitting anymore. We stayed in touch and I saw him regularly for several years after that, but we gradually drifted apart.

I'm trying to do these things with Max. Today, while he was putting together the airplane, I convinced him to let me hand him the screws. That was a big deal. Usually he won't let me touch them. He also loves flashlights, glow sticks etc... We go into a dark room and shine the lights. He says, " Up high, down low, up high, down low, circles!". And we put the light up, down and round and round. He used to do it in the same order every time, but I've gotten him to change up the order and add squares and triangles. It might seem small, but anything to change the routines and get him to try something new is good.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, SQM! I'm kind of familiar with "Floor time". Several years back after we'd moved back to Omaha, a teacher from my daughter's old elementary school, needed a babysitter. Her two year old had been kicked out of three day cares. Several of the teachers who knew me, told her to call me. I agreed to babysit him. He hadn't been diagnosed with autism yet but I was familiar enough to see see the signs, so I read everything I could find about autism. I bought books and checked out books from the library. I did my best to use the techniques I'd read about. He wasn't diagnosed until he entered school and at that point, his mother just had him going to the after school program, so I wasn't babysitting anymore. We stayed in touch and I saw him regularly for several years after that, but we gradually drifted apart.
> 
> I'm trying to do these things with Max. Today, while he was putting together the airplane, I convinced him to let me hand him the screws. That was a big deal. Usually he won't let me touch them. He also loves flashlights, glow sticks etc... We go into a dark room and shine the lights. He says, " Up high, down low, up high, down low, circles!". And we put the light up, down and round and round. He used to do it in the same order every time, but I've gotten him to change up the order and add squares and triangles. It might seem small, but anything to change the routines and get him to try something new is good.


Sounds like you are doing everything right. Enter his world and then softly tug him into yours. Temple Grandin mentioned that she was allowed some time during the day to be autistic but had a lot of tutors who focused her to the "normal" world.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Sounds like you are doing everything right. Enter his world and then softly tug him into yours. Temple Grandin mentioned that she was allowed some time during the day to be autistic but had a lot of tutors who focused her to the "normal" world.


Thanks for sharing this. I'd never heard of Temple Grandin. There's lots of interesting stuff on her website. Also, she talks of Sensory Processing Disorder. My oldest grandson was diagnosed with this. However, he fits the description for Aspergers to a tee.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Give me some numbers. I feel a need to blather.



DGreen said:


> I expected that. And the attempt to override his veto coming up.
> 
> I called every Democrat in the Senate yesterday who voted for the pipeline and strongly expressed my disapproval, then urged them to withdraw their support in anticipation of the next step, along with Flake and McCain of Arizona.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My heart goes out to all of you.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> People really don't understand. It has nothing to do with discipline. It's like a switch is flipped. I can actually see his face change right before he explodes. There are many similarities between your son and Max. Max prefers to not make eye contact, but I can say "look at me" a few times and he will. I can spend hours playing with him and he seems normal until you realize he is doing the same thing over and over and even saying the same words over and over. He has some toys that you put together with plastic nuts and bolts and a screwdriver. He says, "Let's make a airplane". Then he puts it together. I'm not allowed to participate but he wants me next to him. Then after it's put together he says, " take it apart?", and takes it apart. He does this over and over for an hour or two. While doing arts or crafts, he seems more normal and will follow directions pretty well, unless for no reason, he explodes. Then we're done. When he's playing by himself, he's mimicking things that mommy or daddy have said to him, "Why did you do that?", " Stop picking at your skin" (he has eczema and scratches til he's bruised or draws blood), and "You broke it". He repeats one of these phrases over and over, using the exact same inflection as those who said it to him., like a parrot. When he has a meltdown, he throws his head to the floor and then will get up and do it again and again. He's even purposely thrown himself down the stairs. He wants all of the lights on. Then he'll say, " You want them off? OK. You want them on? OK. You want them off? OK. You want them on? OK" over and over and over, turning the lights on and off as he says it. He can't stand to have ceiling fans on. They must be off but he will turn it on just long enough to see it start to turn and then stop it.
> 
> They've told all of this to their pediatrician and he just thinks they're not parenting right. He sent them to a behavioral specialist to learn how to do everything you'd do for a normal child. It doesn't work. He is not normal. People do think that it's them but it's not. Dils mother and brother don't want to watch Max because they can't handle him. But I will do anything for Max. He's usually such a sweet loving boy! I love him so much! I think that very soon, his parents will be ready to find a new doctor. They know something is wrong and have even wondered aloud, if he has autism.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You are a wise and loving woman. Wish we could clone you.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, SQM! I'm kind of familiar with "Floor time". Several years back after we'd moved back to Omaha, a teacher from my daughter's old elementary school, needed a babysitter. Her two year old had been kicked out of three day cares. Several of the teachers who knew me, told her to call me. I agreed to babysit him. He hadn't been diagnosed with autism yet but I was familiar enough to see see the signs, so I read everything I could find about autism. I bought books and checked out books from the library. I did my best to use the techniques I'd read about. He wasn't diagnosed until he entered school and at that point, his mother just had him going to the after school program, so I wasn't babysitting anymore. We stayed in touch and I saw him regularly for several years after that, but we gradually drifted apart.
> 
> I'm trying to do these things with Max. Today, while he was putting together the airplane, I convinced him to let me hand him the screws. That was a big deal. Usually he won't let me touch them. He also loves flashlights, glow sticks etc... We go into a dark room and shine the lights. He says, " Up high, down low, up high, down low, circles!". And we put the light up, down and round and round. He used to do it in the same order every time, but I've gotten him to change up the order and add squares and triangles. It might seem small, but anything to change the routines and get him to try something new is good.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> People really don't understand. It has nothing to do with discipline. It's like a switch is flipped. I can actually see his face change right before he explodes. There are many similarities between your son and Max. Max prefers to not make eye contact, but I can say "look at me" a few times and he will. I can spend hours playing with him and he seems normal until you realize he is doing the same thing over and over and even saying the same words over and over. He has some toys that you put together with plastic nuts and bolts and a screwdriver. He says, "Let's make an airplane". Then he puts it together. I'm not allowed to participate but he wants me next to him. Then after it's put together he says, take it apart?", and takes it apart. He does this over and over for an hour or two. While doing arts or crafts, he seems more normal and will follow directions pretty well, unless for no reason, he explodes. Then we're done. When he's playing by himself, he's mimicking things that mommy or daddy have said to him, "Why did you do that?", Stop picking at your skin" (he has eczema and scratches til he's bruised or draws blood), and "You broke it". He repeats one of these phrases over and over, using the exact same inflection as those who said it to him. like a parrot. When he has a meltdown, he throws his head to the floor and then will get up and do it again and again. He's even purposely thrown himself down the stairs. He wants all of the lights on. Then he'll say, You want them off? OK. You want them on? OK. You want them off? OK. You want them on? OK" over and over and over, turning the lights on and off as he says it. He can't stand to have ceiling fans on. They must be off but he will turn it on just long enough to see it start to turn and then stop it.
> 
> They've told all of this to their paediatrician and he just thinks they're not parenting right. He sent them to a behavioural specialist to learn how to do everything you'd do for a normal child. It doesn't work. He is not normal. People do think that it's them but it's not. Dils mother and brother don't want to watch Max because they can't handle him. But I will do anything for Max. He's usually such a sweet loving boy! I love him so much! I think that very soon, his parents will be ready to find a new doctor. They know something is wrong and have even wondered aloud, if he has autism.


This sounds so very, very familiar. Max is young and at the age when children normally throw a tantrum, so people are always ready to blame the parents and say "bad parenting". How I wish I could get those parents to experience a meltdown, they would soon change their ideas. It is not naughty behaviour because the child cannot get their own way, it is, as you say, a switch has been thrown.

The repetitive behaviour is so typical. I always said what Kai is interested in, he is vitally interested in.....everything else - forget it ". I understand the making the aeroplane and then dismantling it, only to make it again. That is why a person with Aspergers can make such a great scientist; they can and do always recheck and recheck their experiments.

I also know about the change of facial expressions. I have looked at Kai at times and seen something there, a warning sign. If I am lucky I can avert the situation by making him a cup of coffee and giving him a cooked sausage from the fridge. I find that his protein level must be maintained. I also find that coffee does not act as a stimulant but has the opposite effect; it can put him to sleep. I remember one episode when he was about 8 and had to have his EEGs, which included one done whilst he was asleep. We came up from Mt Barker to Perth, 250 miles, for the appointment. Normally it did not take long and we took a sleeping child home. This time it did not work. They came out after an hour and said perhaps we should go home and phone in about 2 hours to see if they were finished, we were staying with my mother in Perth. That was about 10.00 am. We phoned at 12.00 midday, 2.00 pm, 4.00 pm, and about 5.00 pm they phoned and told us to collect him as they could not get him to settle down and go to sleep. They could not give him a sleeping tablet to make him sleep as this would give a false reading, so they gave him the usual antihistamine, which usually sedated the children enough to get the sleep reading. It worked in the opposite way, it made him hyper. They had given him several doses to try and quieten him down. When we picked him up from the hospital he was swinging from the chandeliers and the hospital staff were completely exhausted. We just smirked and asked if they understood our problem now.

He was still charging around the house like an express train at midnight, we were totally exhausted. We took him down to the park to let him run it off. A cop car stopped to see what we were doing about 2.00 am. I explained what had happened and when they saw Kai, still on high but calming down, they could not understand it. He did eventually come down to planet earth so we took him home and put him to bed. He slept for almost 48 hours. My mother said "see the medicine did work, the doctors just did not wait long enough'. She was the one person who could distract his attention; she did not make direct eye contact but looked more above his head. She also modified her voice; spoke to him in a tone one usually uses with a small toddler, sweet, almost like gentle singing. She never used the short, sharp, angry and critical voice that so many people use with a naughty child.

Keep saying "look at me" but in a very gentle voice, not a threatening voice. Threats never work; they always have the opposite effect. That is another thing; a normal child can usually have their attention distracted and directed in another direction by offer a treat. This never worked with Kai; he would tell you exactly what you could do with the treat and often followed this up by showing you. I found the best approach was la de la la la, singing a happy song, let us make another aeroplane, or whatever the child was doing before the meltdown" but silence is often the best approach. People will look at you as if you are crazy but I would ignore them, it was my problem not theirs. His paediatrician once told us "when he throws himself down in a kicking, screaming and head banging episode, you do exactly the same thing", it seemed to work.

I am also understand the repeating what his parents say to him, and him copying, almost mocking, their voices. It is as if the scene is repeating itself over and over and over in his brain. The language used when talking to an autistic child is also vital. I found I could not use phrases such as "Why did you do that?", " Stop picking at your skin" (he has eczema and scratches til he's bruised or draws blood), and "You broke it", but had to replace them with "Hmmm that was an interesting course of action" "yes picking at the eczema does remove the dead scales but it could be inclined to lead to a blood loss. Yes, see the blood is escaping there and "they just do not make things very well these days, they just seem to fall apart ". This seems to take away the stress of the blame.

I can totally understand the fan episode, it is probably making a noise that he can hear but you cannot, and it is probably at that frequency that causes him pain. Yes, noises can cause him pain, noises at a certain level, pitch or frequency. Kai does not like violin music but his head banger music does not cause any problems. Mind you his head banger music does my head in. It is said that autistic children can see the flickering of the fluorescent lights, which a normal person cannot see. This flickering can upset them and cause a meltdown.
I would definitely look for another doctor, one who has more understanding of the problem. I would contact the Autism Society near where you live and ask who they recommend. It is almost as if you have to give the doctor the third degree. Now, doctor, you do have an understanding of autism? The doctor calls it bad parenting I call it bad doctoring.

I have not given you the best news though. Just wait until Max goes to school and the teachers jump on the bandwagon and tell you what rotten parents you are, that you are hopeless as a parent that you need to go to parenting classes. Etc. etc. etc. I always outlined Kais problems with his teachers, telling them he did not have a dominant hand, eye or foot, that he lacked fine motor control and moved from the shoulders not the wrists, that rote learning was a difficult concept for him to grasp as was numeracy. Unfortunately they did not listen; they believed they, as teachers, knew more than I did. I ended up asking do you know anything about Temporal Lobe epilepsy and in high school I added do you know anything about autism. If they said no I would tell them that Kai suffered from both and it would perhaps be best if they did gain some understanding of the problems. Often went over like a lead balloon.

Just a thought, Kais outbursts are nearly always against things not people.

Behaviour modification is needed but I often think it is the other persons behaviour that needs modifying. They need to understand the problem before they condemn the parents and accuse them of bad parenting.

Remember, the gentle approach works better than the short, sharp and angry response, but sometimes that is very difficult. Many times you have to bite your tongue and walk away.

Sorry for this long rant here. Just remember, you are not alone, many parents are going through the same problems. You learn to live with a few holes in the walls and broken items; you just call it an alternative approach to home decorating.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

damemary said:


> Give me some numbers. I feel a need to blather.


The following is a list of those Senate Democrats who voted for the pipeline, including their telephone numbers . The Senate only needs four more to over ride a presidential veto. Please help. Thanks.

Arizona: Senator Flake 1-202-224-4521
Senator McCain 1-202-224-2235

Colorado: Senator Michael Bennet 1-202-224-5852
Delaware: Thomas Carper 1-202-224-2441
Indiana: Joe Donnelly 1-202-224-4814
Missouri: Claire McCaskill 1-202-224-6154
Montana: Jon Tester 1-202-224-2644
North Dakota: Heidi Haitkamp 1-202-224-2043
Pennsylvania: Robert Casey, Jr. 1-202-224-6324
Virginia: Mark Warner 1-202-224-2023 
West Virginia: Joe Manchin 1-202-224-3954


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'll work on this today and I urge others to take a few minutes and use up their extra minutes on their cell plan.

else


DGreen said:


> The following is a list of those Senate Democrats who voted for the pipeline, including their telephone numbers . The Senate only needs four more to over ride a presidential veto. Please help. Thanks.
> 
> Arizona: Senator Flake 1-202-224-4521
> Senator McCain 1-202-224-2235
> ...


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> This sounds so very, very familiar. Max is young and at the age when children normally throw a tantrum, so people are always ready to blame the parents and say "bad parenting". How I wish I could get those parents to experience a meltdown, they would soon change their ideas. It is not naughty behaviour because the child cannot get their own way, it is, as you say, a switch has been thrown.
> 
> The repetitive behaviour is so typical. I always said what Kai is interested in, he is vitally interested in.....everything else - forget it ". I understand the making the aeroplane and then dismantling it, only to make it again. That is why a person with Aspergers can make such a great scientist; they can and do always recheck and recheck their experiments.
> 
> ...


EveeeM - you are a star. Wish you went into special ed teaching instead of library work. You would have been wonderful. But then who would be our main researcher?


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> People really don't understand. It has nothing to do with discipline. It's like a switch is flipped. I can actually see his face change right before he explodes. There are many similarities between your son and Max. Max prefers to not make eye contact, but I can say "look at me" a few times and he will. I can spend hours playing with him and he seems normal until you realize he is doing the same thing over and over and even saying the same words over and over. He has some toys that you put together with plastic nuts and bolts and a screwdriver. He says, "Let's make a airplane". Then he puts it together. I'm not allowed to participate but he wants me next to him. Then after it's put together he says, " take it apart?", and takes it apart. He does this over and over for an hour or two. While doing arts or crafts, he seems more normal and will follow directions pretty well, unless for no reason, he explodes. Then we're done. When he's playing by himself, he's mimicking things that mommy or daddy have said to him, "Why did you do that?", " Stop picking at your skin" (he has eczema and scratches til he's bruised or draws blood), and "You broke it". He repeats one of these phrases over and over, using the exact same inflection as those who said it to him., like a parrot. When he has a meltdown, he throws his head to the floor and then will get up and do it again and again. He's even purposely thrown himself down the stairs. He wants all of the lights on. Then he'll say, " You want them off? OK. You want them on? OK. You want them off? OK. You want them on? OK" over and over and over, turning the lights on and off as he says it. He can't stand to have ceiling fans on. They must be off but he will turn it on just long enough to see it start to turn and then stop it.
> 
> They've told all of this to their pediatrician and he just thinks they're not parenting right. He sent them to a behavioral specialist to learn how to do everything you'd do for a normal child. It doesn't work. He is not normal. People do think that it's them but it's not. Dils mother and brother don't want to watch Max because they can't handle him. But I will do anything for Max. He's usually such a sweet loving boy! I love him so much! I think that very soon, his parents will be ready to find a new doctor. They know something is wrong and have even wondered aloud, if he has autism.


Knitter from Nebraska
Max desperately needs a Doctor who is qualified to take care of him and his Parents need a reality check. So glad he is in such good hands with you.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> The following is a list of those Senate Democrats who voted for the pipeline, including their telephone numbers . The Senate only needs four more to over ride a presidential veto. Please help. Thanks.
> 
> Arizona: Senator Flake 1-202-224-4521
> Senator McCain 1-202-224-2235
> ...


DGreen
Thank you. Shall do my part.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> Thank you. Shall do my part.


Thank YOU!


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> EveeeM - you are a star. Wish you went into special ed teaching instead of library work. You would have been wonderful. But then who would be our main researcher?


My grandmother was a teacher in one and two teacher schools in a small country town in Western Australia in the late 1800s and early 1900s. She taught the boys who went off to Gallipoli in 1914. She travelled from Victoria to Western Australia with her brother and two sisters in the early 1890s, and this was no mean feat. All four of them were teachers. My daughter is a teacher; she is a senior lecturer in Nursing at TAFE. I definitely could not take up teaching, there is a very strong and personal reason for this. My ex husband and his brother's ex wife both trained to become teachers so if I had chosen that path I would have been accused of copying them and only taking up teaching to follow their footsteps. That is something I most definitely did not want to do, for many reasons. My ex only taught for two years, he failed his final assessment and had to do a third year as a probationary. He did not want to do that so he quit his job, yes, just quit his job. That was at the end of 1977 and he did not get another job, ever. He was not a good teacher; he knew his subject area, English, but he could not relate to his pupils. He was only interested in the brighter, straight A students and said he had no time for any under achiever. His loss and the school childrens' gain when he quit teaching. When I was in year 10 I was often called on to mind the Reverend Mother's class, year 3, whilst Reverend Mother was called on to deal with the duties of being a Reverend Mother rather than a teacher. It was fun hearing the children's' reading, helping them with their sums, telling them stories. I initially earned my living as a secretary but always hated shorthand. But my love has always been history.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

DGreen, I also just called all the Senators...let's hope this has an impact


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> You are a wise and loving woman. Wish we could clone you.


Thank you, Dame!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> This sounds so very, very familiar. Max is young and at the age when children normally throw a tantrum, so people are always ready to blame the parents and say "bad parenting". How I wish I could get those parents to experience a meltdown, they would soon change their ideas. It is not naughty behaviour because the child cannot get their own way, it is, as you say, a switch has been thrown.
> 
> The repetitive behaviour is so typical. I always said what Kai is interested in, he is vitally interested in.....everything else - forget it ". I understand the making the aeroplane and then dismantling it, only to make it again. That is why a person with Aspergers can make such a great scientist; they can and do always recheck and recheck their experiments.
> 
> ...


You're certainly right that the gentle approach works best. It's easy for me to be patient with grandchildren, much easier than with my own, I think. I have lots of fun!

I do worry about school though. My oldest grandson had a terrible teacher for kindergarten. I knew the teacher because she used to teach at my daughter's school. She was always mean. She wouldn't work with him at all and made him sit at a table far away from everyone else. She also treated my dil badly. The principal was new. The school was only a couple of years old and was built for 500 students. They had over 800, so I'm sure she was scrambling trying to take care of administrative things.. Anyway, son and dil had him transferred to a smaller school. The teachers and principals are wonderful. They made sure he had the help he needed. Now, he's got friends and play dates. He's happy!

Max's daddy thinks that maybe preschool would help him, being around other kids and all that. I think it would be horrible. I think he'd be yelled at and scolded all of the time, just verbally beat up. Unless they could find a special preschool, I think he'd do better at home. I also think this isn't a good time. I think he'd feel like they were sending in off, because of the babies. I know he'd be unhappy. He needs structure, but the structure has to be his, not someone else's. He would not follow direction. Anyway, thanks for sharing with me.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> DGreen, I also just called all the Senators...let's hope this has an impact


Thank you so much! It's so very important.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

It's all political.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You're certainly right that the gentle approach works best. It's easy for me to be patient with grandchildren, much easier than with my own, I think. I have lots of fun!
> 
> I do worry about school though. My oldest grandson had a terrible teacher for kindergarten. I knew the teacher because she used to teach at my daughter's school. She was always mean. She wouldn't work with him at all and made him sit at a table far away from everyone else. She also treated my dil badly. The principal was new. The school was only a couple of years old and was built for 500 students. They had over 800, so I'm sure she was scrambling trying to take care of administrative things.. Anyway, son and dil had him transferred to a smaller school. The teachers and principals are wonderful. They made sure he had the help he needed. Now, he's got friends and play dates. He's happy!
> 
> Max's daddy thinks that maybe preschool would help him, being around other kids and all that. I think it would be horrible. I think he'd be yelled at and scolded all of the time, just verbally beat up. Unless they could find a special preschool, I think he'd do better at home. I also think this isn't a good time. I think he'd feel like they were sending in off, because of the babies. I know he'd be unhappy. He needs structure, but the structure has to be his, not someone else's. He would not follow direction. Anyway, thanks for sharing with me.


Has anyone gotten in touch with the education departments at local colleges? There are schools here that are connected with early childhood or even psychology departments, taught by people trained to work with kids in difficult situations. If there's no such place for Max, it still wouldn't hurt to have contacts among people who are working on the question of how to deal with kids with mild or moderate autism in school. DO NOT ask the doctor who thinks Max just needs stricter parenting.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

I loved my last message so much, I had to post it twice.

I wish Cheeky would do that with her last message.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You're certainly right that the gentle approach works best. It's easy for me to be patient with grandchildren, much easier than with my own, I think. I have lots of fun!
> 
> I do worry about school though. My oldest grandson had a terrible teacher for kindergarten. I knew the teacher because she used to teach at my daughter's school. She was always mean. She wouldn't work with him at all and made him sit at a table far away from everyone else. She also treated my dil badly. The principal was new. The school was only a couple of years old and was built for 500 students. They had over 800, so I'm sure she was scrambling trying to take care of administrative things.. Anyway, son and dil had him transferred to a smaller school. The teachers and principals are wonderful. They made sure he had the help he needed. Now, he's got friends and play dates. He's happy!
> 
> Max's daddy thinks that maybe preschool would help him, being around other kids and all that. I think it would be horrible. I think he'd be yelled at and scolded all of the time, just verbally beat up. Unless they could find a special preschool, I think he'd do better at home. I also think this isn't a good time. I think he'd feel like they were sending in off, because of the babies. I know he'd be unhappy. He needs structure, but the structure has to be his, not someone else's. He would not follow direction. Anyway, thanks for sharing with me.


I agree with you that preschool may not be the best option for Max at this stage. He may feel rejected with all the fuss that will be shown to the new babies when they come home. They will need a lot of attention and he is too young to understand. I also feel that he may be bullied at a preschool, children can be just plain horrible at times. He would need a special preschool with teachers who are trained to teach children with problems. I know they have these specialty pre schools and kindergartens in Perth now, more so than when Kai was young. Things have improved since the late 70s. Kai's situation was further hindered by the fact that we lived in a very small country town with only one pre primary. He did well in pre primary because he had a very understanding teacher. He also had an excellent year 1 teacher. Prior to preprimary he attended the Noongar kindergarten, he was one of four non Aboriginal children who attended that kindergarten. It was set up for Aboriginal children and we had a lot of Aboriginals living in the Mt Barker region. I knew the teacher and she recommended he attend. Many Aboriginal children have special needs regarding their education and this kindergarten helped them. He still has Aboriginal friends from the kindy days. I can see your son's perspective that Max could benefit from some form of social interaction with his peers but it has to be the correct interaction. Any form of bullying, name calling or exclusion from activities by other children would have a very negative effect on him. I also think that he needs a teacher who understands and cares for children with special needs. Unfortunately I think Max is in the same situation as Kai; he is one of those unfortunate individuals who they describe as 'falling through the cracks'. His disability is not severe enough to qualify him for an invalid pension when he turns 16 year of age nor are they severe enough for either his parents or yourself to qualify for a carers supplementary benefit. It seems the system is set up to help people who are profoundly disabled and unable to work or only work in a sheltered workshop, and these people definitely need all the help they get - or people who fit into mainstream society, go to school and then to work and do not need any assistance unless they suffer a serious injury or illness.

Unfortunately there are many people who come in between these two categories; the people who 'fall through the cracks'. They do not receive the assistance they need in many cases. Kai does not qualify for any form of assistance because of his disability; he is told he is able to work. Yes, he is able to work and he does get a job, it is the keeping the job that is the problem. Even adults can be nasty and when some adults discover a weakness in a fellow employee they hone in on it and set out to cause trouble. Kai loses his jobs because he has a meltdown. He will say that others at work are going out of their way to antagonise him and being autistic he does not have the ability, or sense if you will, to just ignore them. He lets it go until it goes over the top and then he explodes - the result he loses his job. Unfortunately he will not dob the other person in. I tell him if someone is giving him 'stick' to tell his supervisor, but I think that is part of the autism thing, he will not do that.

But, yes, I would see if there is a playgroup, kindy, preschool locally that is set up for children with special needs and has specially trained teachers.

When Kai was in primary when we lived in Queensland I took him out of the local school and sent him to a one teacher school. The local school was just over the railway line and had excellent facilities. The one teacher school had 5 pupils and taught grades 1 to 7. It had a great teacher and excellent post student support and local parents support. It was 17 km away and he had to get up early to get there in the mornings and we picked him up after school. It was a pain but it was worth it. We lived in a National Party electorate - Joe Bjelke Petersen was the Premier of Queensland at the time and a National Party member. He had kept all the one and two teacher schools in National Party seats open whilst denying money to schools in the Labor Seats.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Has anyone gotten in touch with the education departments at local colleges? There are schools here that are connected with early childhood or even psychology departments, taught by people trained to work with kids in difficult situations. If there's no such place for Max, it still wouldn't hurt to have contacts among people who are working on the question of how to deal with kids with mild or moderate autism in school. DO NOT ask the doctor who thinks Max just needs stricter parenting.


That's an interesting idea. I'm not aware of anything like that. But it's worth checking into. Thanks.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I agree with you that preschool may not be the best option for Max at this stage. He may feel rejected with all the fuss that will be shown to the new babies when they come home. They will need a lot of attention and he is too young to understand. I also feel that he may be bullied at a preschool, children can be just plain horrible at times. He would need a special preschool with teachers who are trained to teach children with problems. I know they have these specialty pre schools and kindergartens in Perth now, more so than when Kai was young. Things have improved since the late 70s. Kai's situation was further hindered by the fact that we lived in a very small country town with only one pre primary. He did well in pre primary because he had a very understanding teacher. He also had an excellent year 1 teacher. Prior to preprimary he attended the Noongar kindergarten, he was one of four non Aboriginal children who attended that kindergarten. It was set up for Aboriginal children and we had a lot of Aboriginals living in the Mt Barker region. I knew the teacher and she recommended he attend. Many Aboriginal children have special needs regarding their education and this kindergarten helped them. He still has Aboriginal friends from the kindy days. I can see your son's perspective that Max could benefit from some form of social interaction with his peers but it has to be the correct interaction. Any form of bullying, name calling or exclusion from activities by other children would have a very negative effect on him. I also think that he needs a teacher who understands and cares for children with special needs. Unfortunately I think Max is in the same situation as Kai; he is one of those unfortunate individuals who they describe as 'falling through the cracks'. His disability is not severe enough to qualify him for an invalid pension when he turns 16 year of age nor are they severe enough for either his parents or yourself to qualify for a carers supplementary benefit. It seems the system is set up to help people who are profoundly disabled and unable to work or only work in a sheltered workshop, and these people definitely need all the help they get - or people who fit into mainstream society, go to school and then to work and do not need any assistance unless they suffer a serious injury or illness.
> 
> Unfortunately there are many people who come in between these two categories; the people who 'fall through the cracks'. They do not receive the assistance they need in many cases. Kai does not qualify for any form of assistance because of his disability; he is told he is able to work. Yes, he is able to work and he does get a job, it is the keeping the job that is the problem. Even adults can be nasty and when some adults discover a weakness in a fellow employee they hone in on it and set out to cause trouble. Kai loses his jobs because he has a meltdown. He will say that others at work are going out of their way to antagonise him and being autistic he does not have the ability, or sense if you will, to just ignore them. He lets it go until it goes over the top and then he explodes - the result he loses his job. Unfortunately he will not dob the other person in. I tell him if someone is giving him 'stick' to tell his supervisor, but I think that is part of the autism thing, he will not do that.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing, Eve.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I haven't read all the info on Max, but I just wanted to mention that public schools are supposed to provide services for special needs kids from the age of 3. This should include all the services needed for his educational growth and development. He is entitled to those services under the law.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> I haven't read all the info on Max, but I just wanted to mention that public schools are supposed to provide services for special needs kids from the age of 3. This should include all the services needed for his educational growth and development. He is entitled to those services under the law.


Actually you can get services earlier if the child has a diagnosis. Infants who are thought to be developmentally delayed qualify.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> Actually you can get services earlier if the child has a diagnosis. Infants who are thought to be developmentally delayed qualify.


This is correct, but in our state those programs are through the county rather than through the local public schools.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Oh. I never thought of the source but since the service provider gets paid indirectly from the school dept, it is different in NYC.

I hear Rahm Emanuel is going to be in a run-off for Chgo mayor. Don't bleep with teachers Emanuel.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'd read both of them twice.



Poor Purl said:


> I loved my last message so much, I had to post it twice.
> 
> I wish Cheeky would do that with her last message.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Flash. I've been trying to get through to Senators regarding Keystone Pipeline. I got to leave messages for four. Many mailboxes were full. It appears there is 'a high volume of calls.'


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

damemary said:


> Flash. I've been trying to get through to Senators regarding Keystone Pipeline. I got to leave messages for four. Many mailboxes were full. It appears there is 'a high volume of calls.'


Good news if there is a high volume. Thanks, Dame.

And thanks to everyone else who took the time to call.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> That's an interesting idea. I'm not aware of anything like that. But it's worth checking into. Thanks.


Nobody's aware of these things until referred to one by a professional. Good luck.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I noticed this morning that Joey's latest thread is gone. Disappeared overnight.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> I noticed this morning that Joey's latest thread is gone. Disappeared overnight.


Man, you are right! I just looked at my Watch list and the "Hey Obama" thread is gone.

Why was it taken down, do you know?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> Man, you are right! I just looked at my Watch list and the "Hey Obama" thread is gone.
> 
> Why was it taken down, do you know?


An answer to my prayers? Can the OP request a thread be removed?


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

I'm just glad it is gone. What a waste of space. Hope she gives up her editorializing for good and sticks to D&P where they understand her.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I loved my last message so much, I had to post it twice.
> 
> I wish Cheeky would do that with her last message.


Which one, Purl?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Which one, Purl?


The one with two pictures on it. Please don't ask me to go back and find it. I'm too busy thinking about why Hey Obama was dropped.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> An answer to my prayers? Can the OP request a thread be removed?


Anyone can request a thread be removed. That doesn't mean it _will_ be removed.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Man, you are right! I just looked at my Watch list and the "Hey Obama" thread is gone.
> 
> Why was it taken down, do you know?


My guess is that the DPs didn't like the way we ruined it by insisting on facts rather than snark.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> My guess is that the DPs didn't like the way we ruined it by insisting on facts rather than snark.


Yes, I did ask one poster how stating facts and not blindly accepting the teabagger rhetoric was "ruining" Joey's thread. Never did get an answer--though maybe that was because the thread was removed...?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> Yes, I did ask one poster how stating facts and not blindly accepting the teabagger rhetoric was "ruining" Joey's thread. Never did get an answer--though maybe that was because the thread was removed...?


It would not surprise me if Joey asked to have it removed. She was getting quite a bit of flak from the more progressive posters.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> It would not surprise me if Joey asked to have it removed. She was getting quite a bit of flak from the more progressive posters.


Shucks. No one will give my prayers being answered by god as the reason for the gone thread.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Shucks. No one will give my prayers being answered by god as the reason for the gone thread.


Rest assured - G-d made it so.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Just for you Purl.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Yes, I did ask one poster how stating facts and not blindly accepting the teabagger rhetoric was "ruining" Joey's thread. Never did get an answer--though maybe that was because the thread was removed...?


I think the original post was over the top, our reaction might have been the problem, or their personal attacks. Too many insults on both sides? I am just glad it is gone as I thought her insults toward the President were way out of line - arrogant and rude. We will never know why. However personally I am glad that there is a line drawn, even on the Political threads. Maybe they just read it and thought it was a poorly stated subject. Remember the Royalty of D and P got their personal opinions of us on the posts. Maybe someone from outside not Political but regular KPs reported how unpleasant the posts were. who knows.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Just for you Purl.


Thank you, Cheeky. They're just as good the second time around.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Celebrate right away.



cookiequeen said:


> I noticed this morning that Joey's latest thread is gone. Disappeared overnight.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I have to know.



sumpleby said:


> Man, you are right! I just looked at my Watch list and the "Hey Obama" thread is gone.
> 
> Why was it taken down, do you know?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Original poster can request their comment removal, as far as I've heard. Not sure if entire thread can be removed.



SQM said:


> An answer to my prayers? Can the OP request a thread be removed?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> Original poster can request their comment removal, as far as I've heard. Not sure if entire thread can be removed.


yes they can it would then be up to the administration.

You can have your own posts removed. by clicking on
report issue. I have posted on the wrong thread and have asked them to remove it. I had to do that sometimes with the workshops. They can do whatever they wish but they don't have to do anything they don't want to do. I had a whole workshop removed when the teacher got sick immediately when I opened it. they removed all the workshop including my posts and also all the student's posts.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I'm just glad it is gone. What a waste of space. Hope she gives up her editorializing for good and sticks to D&P where they understand her.


Cheeky Blighter
Same here.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Anyone can request a thread be removed. That doesn't mean it _will_ be removed.


Poor Purl
correct.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I just watched CNN up here -- there is a moving news service printed under the US news and quite a lot was about the Republicans and Boehner. 

It sure looks like things are in disaray with the GOP Bush is way at the bottom of the approval list for the Presidential election. It also says the GOP are trying to get rid of BOHNER , because his is doing such a poor job. 

The whole series of statements seem to show that the Repubs, are confused and uncertain -- whether that is true or not I am not sure. 

I hope some of you saw it and can discuss your views on the 'mess' that seems to be happening with the repubs. The list of those running for President was noted but I didn't have a pen or notepad. Cruz was 4th, 

Bush was way behind. It would be interesting if you saw it. I would like your opinion of the people who are on the top of the list. I am sorry I don't have more info - but maybe you can find the list that was published.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I just watched CNN up here -- there is a moving news service printed under the US news and quite a lot was about the Republicans and Boehner.
> 
> It sure looks like things are in disaray with the GOP Bush is way at the bottom of the approval list for the Presidential election. It also says the GOP are trying to get rid of BOHNER , because his is doing such a poor job.
> 
> ...


I'll do some checking, Shirley. If it is true, my question is what took them so long?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I just watched CNN up here -- there is a moving news service printed under the US news and quite a lot was about the Republicans and Boehner.
> 
> It sure looks like things are in disaray with the GOP Bush is way at the bottom of the approval list for the Presidential election. It also says the GOP are trying to get rid of BOHNER , because his is doing such a poor job.
> 
> ...


Bush is proving not conservative enough so he is not getting much support. While at times he seems like the best of the Bushes, hopefully America will not be able to stomach another Bush. No matter who he is, Jeb is tainted by his family.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> Bush is proving not conservative enough so he is not getting much support. While at times he seems like the best of the Bushes, hopefully America will not be able to stomach another Bush. No matter who he is, Jeb is tainted by his family.


I don't think that he isn't conservative enough, I think that he isn't crazy enough!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> I don't think that he isn't conservative enough, I think think he isn't crazy enough!


I don't see the difference.

Slow night tonight. I guess I will go back to netflix.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> I don't see the difference.
> 
> Slow night tonight. I guess I will go back to netflix.


That's exactly where I am. Watching 'Revenge". Not sure if I like it or not.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Another Bush? There should be a law preventing that from happening like 'two strikes and you're out' or 'proven genetic deficiencies.'


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Another Bush? There should be a law preventing that from happening like 'two strikes and you're out' or 'proven genetic deficiencies.'


Ha Ha.

Brat - I am starting season 3 of House of Cards. I highly recommend The Slap - an Australian series. Very well done and compelling. My beloved Essie Davis is in it.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

I think Putin is responsible. Next we will be sending troops to that part of the world.

World leaders condemn murder of Russian politician Boris Nemtsov 
source The Guardian 3/1/2015

World leaders led by David Cameron and Barack Obama have condemned the killing of prominent Russian opposition politician Boris Nemtsov, who was shot dead in Moscow on Friday evening.

Nemtsov, a former deputy prime minister and a sharp critic of the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, was reportedly shot four times in the back by a killer in a passing car.

Cameron said the callous murder must be fully, rapidly and transparently investigated, and those responsible brought to justice.

His life was dedicated to speaking up tirelessly for the Russian people, to demanding their right to democracy and liberty under the rule of law, and to an end to corruption, the prime minister said. He did so without fear, and never gave in to intimidation.
The US president called on Russias government to conduct a prompt, impartial and transparent investigation, describing Nemtsov as a tireless advocate for citizens rights and fighting corruption.

Assassination
A spokesman for German chancellor, Angela Merkel, said she was dismayed by Nemtsovs killing and praised his courage in criticising government policies.

The office of the French president, François Hollande, described the killing as an assassination and described the politician as a courageous and tireless defender of democracy and a dogged fighter against corruption.

The killing took place in the very centre of Moscow late on Friday evening on a bridge near St Basils Cathedral and the Kremlin, two days before Nemtsov was due to lead a major opposition rally in Moscow.
Putins spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, said the president would take the investigation into Nemtsovs death under personal control, and that he believed the killing to be a provocation.

Putin noted that this cruel killing has all the signs of a hit, and is a pure provocation, said Peskov. He said Putin offered condolences to Nemtsovs family.

Former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev echoed the suggestion that the killing was a provocation: Its an attempt to push the situation into complications, maybe even to destabilising the situation in the country.

Russias investigative committee was pursuing several lines on inquiry, including the possibility it was an attempt to destabilise the political landscape.

The committee, which reports to Putin, said the killing could be linked with events in Ukraine or have been carried out by radical Islamists. Vladimir Markin, a spokesman for the committee, said Nemtsov had received threats in connection with his position on the Charlie Hebdo shootings in Paris last month.

Nemtsov, 55, was deputy prime minister during the 1990s in the government of Boris Yeltsin. He had written a number of reports in recent years linking Putin and his inner circle to corruption, and was one of the most well-known politicians among Russias small and beleaguered opposition.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Ha Ha.
> 
> Brat - I am starting season 3 of House of Cards. I highly recommend The Slap - an Australian series. Very well done and compelling. My beloved Essie Davis is in it.


I know of a Judy Davis. Essie Davis?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> www.nytimes.com killed-boris-nemtsov.html - Similar pages I think Putin is responsible for this.


I totally agree. And he's sprouting about launching an investigation and bringing the culprit to justice. Ha!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I know of a Judy Davis. Essie Davis?


Nu? I have to tell an Aussie about Miss Fisher Murder Mysteries series?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Nu? I have to tell an Aussie about Miss Fisher Murder Mysteries series?


Oh, sorry. Thought you were referring to The Slap. I don't think Judy Davis is in that anyway! :shock:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Who killed Boris Nemtsov, a vice premier, in Russia? Putin or was it someone else? They don't need any more instability in that part of the world. Next thing we may be doing is sending troops in that direction.
> 
> World leaders led by David Cameron and Barack Obama have condemned the killing of prominent Russian opposition politician Boris Nemtsov, who was shot dead in Moscow on Friday evening.
> 
> ...


What Mr. Cameron is saying is exactly what should happen but I'm sure he knows that the question of a rapid and transparent investigation is a rhetorical question at best.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I know of a Judy Davis. Essie Davis?


Australian actress. Essie Davis was born in 1970 in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia. She is an actress, known for The Babadook (2014), The Matrix Revolutions (2003) and Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Ga'Hoole (2010). She has been married to Justin Kurzel since 2002. They have two children.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> What Mr. Cameron is saying is exactly what should happen but I'm sure he knows that the question of a rapid and transparent investigation is a rhetorical question at best.


I think you are absolutely correct.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Oh, sorry. Thought you were referring to The Slap. I don't think Judy Davis is in that anyway! :shock:


 Essie Davis does.

The Slap
An 8-part drama series that traces the shattering repercussions of a single event upon a group of family and friends. CAST: Jonathan LaPaglia, Melissa George, Alex Dimitriades, Sophie Okonedo, Essie Davis


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Australian actress. Essie Davis was born in 1970 in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia. She is an actress, known for The Babadook (2014), The Matrix Revolutions (2003) and Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Ga'Hoole (2010). She has been married to Justin Kurzel since 2002. They have two children.


Thanks. You made my night. I assume she is not exactly a household name in Oz.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I don't think that he isn't conservative enough, I think that he isn't crazy enough!


Bratty Patty
not crazy enough is exactly it.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I think Putin is responsible. Next we will be sending troops to that part of the world.
> 
> World leaders condemn murder of Russian politician Boris Nemtsov
> source The Guardian 3/1/2015
> ...


Cheeky Blighter
NO doubt that Putin is responsible for that trigger pull.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Another Bush? There should be a law preventing that from happening like 'two strikes and you're out' or 'proven genetic deficiencies.'


Wombatnomore
to be polite, I call it "genetic influences" and those are rather strong.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I didn't see this particular report but I have been reading other similar reports lately. It has seemed obvious to me all along which is why I'm holding back. It's been so ridiculous that I feel sure that time will show it our way.

I also feel that all the GOP hopeful have made major gaffes. They need to come up with someone new who has a clean background and solid proposals. IMHO



Designer1234 said:


> I just watched CNN up here -- there is a moving news service printed under the US news and quite a lot was about the Republicans and Boehner.
> 
> It sure looks like things are in disaray with the GOP Bush is way at the bottom of the approval list for the Presidential election. It also says the GOP are trying to get rid of BOHNER , because his is doing such a poor job.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> I'll do some checking, Shirley. If it is true, my question is what took them so long?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Another Bush? There should be a law preventing that from happening like 'two strikes and you're out' or 'proven genetic deficiencies.'


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

As much as I hate to say it, Putin must be stopped and USA must do it, hopefully in conjunction with Great Britain, Germany, France and others.

A 'destabilizing influence indeed! Putin is saying no one can stop him. I say he's wrong.



Cheeky Blighter said:


> I think Putin is responsible. Next we will be sending troops to that part of the world.
> 
> World leaders condemn murder of Russian politician Boris Nemtsov
> source The Guardian 3/1/2015
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I totally agree. And he's sprouting about launching an investigation and bringing the culprit to justice. Ha!


He's like a bully in the schoolyard saying, "You can't stop me."


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> As much as I hate to say it, Putin must be stopped and USA must do it, hopefully in conjunction with Great Britain, Germany, France and others.
> 
> A 'destabilizing influence indeed! Putin is saying no one can stop him. I say he's wrong.


Napoleon tried to conquer Russia and was defeated. 
Hitler tried to conquer Russia and was defeated.
Poland did but only had limited control for 1 year before they withdrew. 1610 and all that.
Do you really want to take on the power of the Slavs and the might of Russia? The only people who seem to have had any success in that regard were the Mongols but that was before Russia was Russia. The USSR has gone but Russia is still a powerful nation and Putin still has a lot of supporters in Russia. Russians respect a powerful leader, that is why they lost faith in the last Tsar. His father was an extremely powerful Tsar but Nicholas 11 was not. He was a weak leader, he did not want to be Tsar.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Napoleon tried to conquer Russia and was defeated.
> Hitler tried to conquer Russia and was defeated.
> Poland did but only had limited control for 1 year before they withdrew. 1610 and all that.
> Do you really want to take on the power of the Slavs and the might of Russia? The only people who seem to have had any success in that regard were the Mongols but that was before Russia was Russia. The USSR has gone but Russia is still a powerful nation and Putin still has a lot of supporters in Russia. Russians respect a powerful leader, that is why they lost faith in the last Tsar. His father was an extremely powerful Tsar but Nicholas 11 was not. He was a weak leader, he did not want to be Tsar.


As always thanks Eviee for drawing a logical conclusion re: Russia and Putin. It would not be in our best interest to attempt to interfere with Putin. Russia is well-armed and I would not mess with them. Let them take Ukraine and rid it of the neo-fascists.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Australian actress. Essie Davis was born in 1970 in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia. She is an actress, known for The Babadook (2014), The Matrix Revolutions (2003) and Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Ga'Hoole (2010). She has been married to Justin Kurzel since 2002. They have two children.


Thanks Eve.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for the warning.

Russia is formidable. Diplomacy and hitting them economically are good tools also. I know Putin is deliberately baiting the rest of the world by throwing this recent assassination in our faces. Perhaps he is feeling the heat economically and feels now is the time to prove himself at war. (Never let your enemy choose the battleground.)

I'm glad I don't have to solve this problem myself, and I am glad our President is President Obama instead of President Bush.



EveMCooke said:


> Napoleon tried to conquer Russia and was defeated.
> Hitler tried to conquer Russia and was defeated.
> Poland did but only had limited control for 1 year before they withdrew. 1610 and all that.
> Do you really want to take on the power of the Slavs and the might of Russia? The only people who seem to have had any success in that regard were the Mongols but that was before Russia was Russia. The USSR has gone but Russia is still a powerful nation and Putin still has a lot of supporters in Russia. Russians respect a powerful leader, that is why they lost faith in the last Tsar. His father was an extremely powerful Tsar but Nicholas 11 was not. He was a weak leader, he did not want to be Tsar.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And if Russia openly supports ISIS and al Quada? Putin wants a fight. IMHO



SQM said:


> As always thanks Eviee for drawing a logical conclusion re: Russia and Putin. It would not be in our best interest to attempt to interfere with Putin. Russia is well-armed and I would not mess with them. Let them take Ukraine and rid it of the neo-fascists.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Wombatnomore
> to be polite, I call it "genetic influences" and those are rather strong.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: I admire your diplomacy Huckleberry!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Essie Davis does.
> 
> The Slap
> An 8-part drama series that traces the shattering repercussions of a single event upon a group of family and friends. CAST: Jonathan LaPaglia, Melissa George, Alex Dimitriades, Sophie Okonedo, Essie Davis


Thanks Eve. I have to admit I didn't follow The Slap much to my regret.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Thanks. You made my night. I assume she is not exactly a household name in Oz.


She probably is. I haven't watched the 2 series she has been in unfortunately. Will catch them up though because they both won critical acclaim.


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Oh gosh, Max and Kal sound so much like my Jonathan. And my DD told me the other day that her Elizabeth is showing some signs of autism now. Oh god. At least Eliana recognizes it. I did not because those behaviors were normal for my mother and sister, and I continued to have tantrums, but only at home and never around anyone who was not an immediate family member (after age five), until after I was married and found that sort of behavior very embarrassing and frustrating, because David did not do that himself and he did not react at all when I did. So it came to an end for me. Then when my sister moved in we all got to live with it in her for the 9 1/2 years she lived in our house, as well as with Jonno. However, Jonathan would just run and hide in his room. Genny would get loud.

I have just read maybe page 107 or so through 109. I will pick up more another time. Thank you, Purl, for sending me this link.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> That's exactly where I am. Watching 'Revenge". Not sure if I like it or not.


I think that is a Canadian Program. One called Revenge has been on for a couple of years, both up here and in the States. Good show although, like many of them the story line is a bit unbelievable.

If it is the same one - a woman comes back to a very wealthy area to get revenge on a family. The story line is about her and I enjoyed it. Haven't watched it this year.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Thanks Eve. I have to admit I didn't follow The Slap much to my regret.


I started watching the show but did not continue. I cannot remember why I stopped. I think I was having trouble with the foxtel IQ recording box at the time, it was not recording all the shows. They kept telling me to switch it off and then reset it, but this did not work. I missed a lot of shows. I rarely watch shows or the news at the appointed time, I record them to watch at my leisure. When the Foxtel technician came to fix the box he found it was one small component, something akin to a transformer that plugged into the back of the IQ box and then into the power supply. It was simply old and past its use by date.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

gremlin in the system, double post, so deleted. boring to read a second time.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> He's like a bully in the schoolyard saying, "You can't stop me."


damemary
it is tough to deal with someone who is mentally unstable.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Let us take notice of what the King of Jordan said in this morning's Interview: "President Obama is right when he DOES NOT call the Terrorists - Muslim Terrorists". The King is a Muslim and he stated that the Terrorists want to be called Muslims because that would give them some standing. He also said that the fight is a regional fight and should be taken care of by those Countries it effects, supported by others. 

Of course the GOP is trying hard to get us into another War. My guess is that they have investments in War Gear like Cheney.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That's my friend Huck....says so much between the lines.



Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: I admire your diplomacy Huckleberry!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for the reminder, Huck. So easy to get trapped emotionally.



Huckleberry said:


> Let us take notice of what the King of Jordan said in this morning's Interview: "President Obama is right when he DOES NOT call the Terrorists - Muslim Terrorists". The King is a Muslim and he stated that the Terrorists want to be called Muslims because that would give them some standing. He also said that the fight is a regional fight and should be taken care of by those Countries it effects, supported by others.
> 
> Of course the GOP is trying hard to get us into another War. My guess is that they have investments in War Gear like Cheney.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Let us take notice of what the King of Jordan said in this morning's Interview: "President Obama is right when he DOES NOT call the Terrorists - Muslim Terrorists". The King is a Muslim and he stated that the Terrorists want to be called Muslims because that would give them some standing. He also said that the fight is a regional fight and should be taken care of by those Countries it effects, supported by others.
> 
> Of course the GOP is trying hard to get us into another War. My guess is that they have investments in War Gear like Cheney.


I think you are correct Huck. Wherever they go there is money to be made and they don't care if American lives are lost to protect "their interests".


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Bush is proving not conservative enough so he is not getting much support. While at times he seems like the best of the Bushes, hopefully America will not be able to stomach another Bush. No matter who he is, Jeb is tainted by his family.


I wouldn't vote for another bush, if he were the only one running!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Another Bush? There should be a law preventing that from happening like 'two strikes and you're out' or 'proven genetic deficiencies.'


 :thumbup:


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I think you are correct Huck. Wherever they go there is money to be made and they don't care if American lives are lost to protect "their interests".


Cheeky Blighter
and no matter how much money they amass, they cannot buy Health or Eternal Life. In the end we are all equal. Such satisfaction for those of us who enjoy all of the little things and eventually meet up with those who never learned about all that is beautiful on this Earth.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Hi Nebs.

Please introduce us to your avatar.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I think Putin is responsible. Next we will be sending troops to that part of the world.
> 
> World leaders condemn murder of Russian politician Boris Nemtsov
> source The Guardian 3/1/2015
> ...


Our leaders are itching to send troops against Russia. They've been trying to get something started in the Ukraine. They're just looking for an excuse.

The murder of the ex deputy prime minister will never be solved. They might find someone to pin it on, but every government eliminates those who pose a threat.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Hi Nebs.
> 
> Please introduce us to your avatar.


Hi, SQM! That's me holding my grandsons.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Wombatnomore
> to be polite, I call it "genetic influences" and those are rather strong.


Speaking of "genetic influences", all but one of our presidents are genetically related.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Hi, SQM! That's me holding my grandsons.


you are so lucky to have more than one grandchild and some boys!. I had so much fun raiding my boys and I miss my oldest son so much - his younger brother is a real keeper and I am enjoying being close to him and him family.

I would love more grandchildren !but I don't think it will happen. So, we have great enjoyment from our sweet grand daughter Hayley.

Very nice picture in your avatar. Would the parents have a problem with you posting a bigger picture? Is max there?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> As much as I hate to say it, Putin must be stopped and USA must do it, hopefully in conjunction with Great Britain, Germany, France and others.
> 
> A 'destabilizing influence indeed! Putin is saying no one can stop him. I say he's wrong.


I say putin is right. We could not win a war against Russia! Even if her allies (China and Iran) did not join her, we'd be destroyed! War with with Russia would come to America. Russia has far better technology. They have better and more weapons. They have better and more soldiers. Our current administration has been dismantling our military. We couldn't win a war with anyone. Never has war come to the shores of our country. But it will, if we keep poking a stick at putin. He is not afraid.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> you are so lucky to have more than one grandchild and some boys!. I had so much fun raiding my boys and I miss my oldest son so much - his younger brother is a real keeper and I am enjoying being close to him and him family.
> 
> I would love more grandchildren !but I don't think it will happen. So, we have great enjoyment from our sweet grand daughter Hayley.
> 
> Very nice picture in your avatar. Would the parents have a problem with you posting a bigger picture? Is max there?


Max is the curly headed one on the right.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Napoleon tried to conquer Russia and was defeated.
> Hitler tried to conquer Russia and was defeated.
> Poland did but only had limited control for 1 year before they withdrew. 1610 and all that.
> Do you really want to take on the power of the Slavs and the might of Russia? The only people who seem to have had any success in that regard were the Mongols but that was before Russia was Russia. The USSR has gone but Russia is still a powerful nation and Putin still has a lot of supporters in Russia. Russians respect a powerful leader, that is why they lost faith in the last Tsar. His father was an extremely powerful Tsar but Nicholas 11 was not. He was a weak leader, he did not want to be Tsar.


 :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Thanks for the warning.
> 
> Russia is formidable. Diplomacy and hitting them economically are good tools also. I know Putin is deliberately baiting the rest of the world by throwing this recent assassination in our faces. Perhaps he is feeling the heat economically and feels now is the time to prove himself at war. (Never let your enemy choose the battleground.)
> 
> I'm glad I don't have to solve this problem myself, and I am glad our President is President Obama instead of President Bush.


We are already in a currency war with Russia. We're probably beyond diplomacy at this point.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I say putin is right. We could not win a war against Russia! Even if her allies (China and Iran) did not join her, we'd be destroyed! War with with Russia would come to America. Russia has far better technology. They have better and more weapons. They have better and more soldiers. Our current administration has been dismantling our military. We couldn't win a war with anyone. Never has war come to the shores of our country. But it will, if we keep poking a stick at putin. He is not afraid.


Yes Nebs. My thinking also. We have not won a war since WW2 and Russia had won most of the war against Germany. We are depleted militarily and the public's taste for more war seems to be on the wan (or is it on the wax? I never followed the moon's career). We squandered our military resources all these years and now with IS, a real threat, what are we to do?

How did the 100 Years War end?

Nebs - you are stunning and those kiddies are triple adorable. You are so young!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> And if Russia openly supports ISIS and al Quada? Putin wants a fight. IMHO


What?!? WE'RE the ones supporting isis and al qaida, not Russia.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Yes Nebs. My thinking also. We have not won a war since WW2 and Russia hadwon most of the war against Germany. We are depleted militarily and the public's taste for more war seems to be on the wan (or is it on the wax? I never followed the moon's career). We squandered our military resources all these years and now with IS, a real threat, what are we to do?
> 
> How did the 100 Years War end?
> 
> Nebs - you are stunning and those kiddies are triple adorable. You are so young!


Ahahahahahaha! No one has EVER called me stunning before! That's hilarious! Not so young either. Just last night, my grandson said I'm pretty old. Not as old as great grandma though. I'll be 60 in May. I'm feeling pretty old.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Camacho said:


> Oh gosh, Max and Kal sound so much like my Jonathan. And my DD told me the other day that her Elizabeth is showing some signs of autism now. Oh god. At least Eliana recognizes it. I did not because those behaviors were normal for my mother and sister, and I continued to have tantrums, but only at home and never around anyone who was not an immediate family member (after age five), until after I was married and found that sort of behavior very embarrassing and frustrating, because David did not do that himself and he did not react at all when I did. So it came to an end for me. Then when my sister moved in we all got to live with it in her for the 9 1/2 years she lived in our house, as well as with Jonno. However, Jonathan would just run and hide in his room. Genny would get loud.
> 
> I have just read maybe page 107 or so through 109. I will pick up more another time. Thank you, Purl, for sending me this link.


Hi, Camacho! How old is Johnathon? And how old was he when he was diagnosed? I'll pray that Elizabeth is fine. Maybe she's just showing a few signs and will improve. Prayers for Eliana as well.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Let us take notice of what the King of Jordan said in this morning's Interview: "President Obama is right when he DOES NOT call the Terrorists - Muslim Terrorists". The King is a Muslim and he stated that the Terrorists want to be called Muslims because that would give them some standing. He also said that the fight is a regional fight and should be taken care of by those Countries it effects, supported by others.
> 
> Of course the GOP is trying hard to get us into another War. My guess is that they have investments in War Gear like Cheney.


My guess is that ALL of them on both sides are invested in the military industrial complex. Big money!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wow! I scared everybody away. Was it my words or the pic? Haha!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I'm here with you.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I'm here with you.


Where'd you go?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

No where. it is snowing out. I heated up dinner and surfed online. Things have been very slow on KP for us.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Yes Nebs. My thinking also. We have not won a war since WW2 and Russia had won most of the war against Germany. We are depleted militarily and the public's taste for more war seems to be on the wan (or is it on the wax? I never followed the moon's career). We squandered our military resources all these years and now with IS, a real threat, what are we to do?
> 
> How did the 100 Years War end?
> 
> Nebs - you are stunning and those kiddies are triple adorable. You are so young!


I agree -- you look so happy with your grandkiddies. I think you will enjoy the new babies too and it will be so good for Max to have you keeping an eye out for him. YOu are an excellent grandmother and therefore an excellent mother.

I applaud you.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I understand that the only time Russia has been defeated was in afghanistan. Pat says that hundreds and hundreds of tanks and other vehicles are in the desert. He thought the US and Canada were foolish to go into afghanistan as it is full of tribes and desert people who know the land and know what to do to win. I thought he might be wrong but he wasn't.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> No where. it is snowing out. I heated up dinner and surfed online. Things have been very slow on KP for us.


More snow? We're supposed to get a few inches on Tuesday. We're skipping dinner and are just going to heat up leftovers from our big breakfast. Not to mention, I just ate a bunch of cashews.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

The Afghans are amazing. Their butts were kicked by Alexander the Great but that is about it. Maybe I should knit one.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I agree -- you look so happy with your grandkiddies. I think you will enjoy the new babies too and it will be so good for Max to have you keeping an eye out for him. YOu are an excellent grandmother and therefore an excellent mother.
> 
> I applaud you.


Thank you for the compliment. Family is everything to me. I'm very excited about having granddaughters though. It'll be a whole new experience.

Last night, Blake and Mason stayed overnight. We made gummy bears (and rabbits and dinosaurs and airplanes and trucks). Red ones and blue ones. I just remembered that I forgot to send home the ones they didn't eat. Rats! Max wants to make them all of the time but I hadn't made them with the other two before. They had fun except when it was time to pick up all of the toys. What a mess!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> The Afghans are amazing. Their butts were kicked by Alexander the Great but that is about it. Maybe I should knit one.


I can't imagine knitting an afghan. I get bored knitting the same thing over and over. I can't even get myself to finish a little baby blanket, I started years ago. Right now, I'm knitting a Topsy turvy toy for Max, a rabbit on one side and a cat on the other. I just finished four preemie hats done in Bernat Pipsqueak. They're really soft but I got bored after the first one. I've so many things on my list to knit, so I'd better get busy.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

This video is about antisemitism and antizionism on American university campuses. I had NO idea that this was going on in our country! I am outraged! As citizens who support these universities with our tax dollars, we should all be calling our legislators wherever this is happening, and tell them that we don't want our tax dollars going to institutions that support these hateful activities. According to the video, this is going on in Canada as well. This just makes me sick! I don't believe that this originates with students. I believe that the students are puppets.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I understand that the only time Russia has been defeated was in afghanistan. Pat says that hundreds and hundreds of tanks and other vehicles are in the desert. He thought the US and Canada were foolish to go into afghanistan as it is full of tribes and desert people who know the land and know what to do to win. I thought he might be wrong but he wasn't.


Russia, or to be precise the USSR, was defeated in Afghanistan and withdrew her forces. You could say it was Russia's Vietnam. Although Russian forces were defeated Russia herself was not conquered, although it lead to the downfall of the USSR.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Max is the curly headed one on the right.


What a fine looking bunch.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> What a fine looking bunch.


Thanks, Green!


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## MrsB (Jun 3, 2011)

Try a 15 hour flight to Australia from the West Coast-oy!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Russia, or to be precise the USSR, was defeated in Afghanistan and withdrew her forces. You could say it was Russia's Vietnam. Although Russian forces were defeated Russia herself was not conquered, although it lead to the downfall of the USSR.


Exacty -- I didn't mean that she was invaded and lost, but they spent millions of rubles paying for the Afghanistan 'war' and lost - they finally just picked up and left.

We should have learned from that - as if Russian which was close to Afghanistan and was very very powerful military wise, lost, why would we think we were going to win, when we were across the ocean from them and in the case of the US had just paid out millions of dollars in the Iraq war. As you say Eve it was the same result as Viet Nam.

What we were doing there I have never figured out. to me it was a stupid move on both our parts. jmo.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Exacty -- I didn't mean that she was invaded and lost, but they spent millions of rubles paying for the Afghanistan 'war' and lost - they finally just picked up and left.
> 
> We should have learned from that - as if Russian which was close to Afghanistan and was very very powerful military wise, lost, why would we think we were going to win, when we were across the ocean from them and in the case of the US had just paid out millions of dollars in the Iraq war. As you say Eve it was the same result as Viet Nam.
> 
> What we were doing there I have never figured out. to me it was a stupid move on both our parts. jmo.


Lots of things in combination led to the end of Russian occupation of Afghanistan such as the CIA's covert operations which saw millions of dollars in arms supplied to Afghan militia (think Charlie Wilson) and Gorbachev coming into power with his very different take on foreign policy.

And things haven't changed at all for Russia with her now trying to take over the Ukraine. Just another day at the office for Putin.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

MrsB said:


> Try a 15 hour flight to Australia from the West Coast-oy!


Add to that the 19 hour time differences, as Sydney is 19 hours ahead of the USA and you have the scenario where you could leave USA at 1.00 am on a Monday morning and arrive in Sydney when it is 11.00 am on Tuesday morning in Sydney.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I just turned on Netanyaho's speech. 

I am not going to comment but I would really like to hear your opinions. He said that he has a great deal of respect for President Obama, I am really interested in the opinion of this speech prior to the speech he will give tomorrow (the invitation from Bohner).

Because of the strong feelings of some of you about him, I am looking at him quite differently than I have in the past. I still think Isreal needs a very strong leader because of what is happening in the world. I am not sure that someone else would show the world that he is not going to be cowed by other's opinions. I therefore am extremely interested in your opinions of this speech and to one tomorrow.


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Hi, Camacho! How old is Johnathon? And how old was he when he was diagnosed? I'll pray that Elizabeth is fine. Maybe she's just showing a few signs and will improve. Prayers for Eliana as well.


Jonathan is 27 now. People were dancing around their suspicions one way or another without actually saying words to David or me since he was three, and the words "autism" and related words finally began to be bandied about when he was in the hospital five years ago at age 22, and by last year it was unquestionably part of his official diagnosis. At this point everyone recognizes that the mental illness will fade out of the picture when he gets all the help he needs for his autism-related issues.
Eliana has expressed concern because at Elizabeth's 19-month family visit, she was a little behind in her language development, has been engaging in a little head-banging and hand motions that may be indicative of autism spectrum issues. Eliana has jumped into action as a mom, encouraging Elizabeth to use her words, for example, and Elizabeth's language use is increasing dramatically. All my grandmotherly attention is poured into Elizabeth's direction, since she is the only grandchild in the foreseeable future. I am still hoping for more eventually. Elizabeth also goes to toddler gymnastics every week, toddler story time every week, a grown-up women's singing group twice a month, Sunday School every week, a baby-wearing support group every week, a breastfeeding support group every week, and she goes grocery shopping with her mommy every week, and sees the women at the WIC office and gets family visits regularly every few months along with the usual well baby visits to the physician. So Elizabeth gets out a lot. And her parents read to her a lot, and she goes to all the SCA events with them, that include weekly fighter practice (watching big people including her daddy fence dressed up in medieval outfits) which she watches, and "participating" with the women's singing group there. She gets to spend time with her daddy in his workshop where he spends hours every day pursuing many crafts. She is beginning to "help" mama in the kitchen and the supermarket. She goes to the potty when she needs to, but is still learning to pull her pants down before she does anything and to pull them up again after she finishes. She is putting her dolls and animal toys on the potty, and has her own little wrap so she can wrap her teddy bear and her dolly and wear them the same way her mommy and daddy wrap her and wear her.

Okay. So now I have got in my grandmotherly overly detailed description of all the wonderful things my granddaughter does. Oh and have I mentioned her delightful scribbles? That's enough for now. I've had my turn.

Thank you very much for asking.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> We are already in a currency war with Russia. We're probably beyond diplomacy at this point.


Knitter from Nebraska
Diplomacy must always be on the table, not matter what.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I just turned on Netanyaho's speech.
> 
> I am not going to comment but I would really like to hear your opinions. He said that he has a great deal of respect for President Obama, I am really interested in the opinion of this speech prior to the speech he will give tomorrow (the invitation from Bohner).
> 
> Because of the strong feelings of some of you about him, I am looking at him quite differently than I have in the past. I still think Isreal needs a very strong leader because of what is happening in the world. I am not sure that someone else would show the world that he is not going to be cowed by other's opinions. I therefore am extremely interested in your opinions of this speech and to one tomorrow.


Designer1234
here is my opinion: Netanyahu is poison. With him in power, no progress will be seen. He likes trouble to continue so he can get on his platform and keep the money coming. He should be on his knees and thank President Obama for negotiating with Iran. Perhaps he does want the situation in Iran AS IS.
Israel has Nuclear Weapons, so he should keep his mouth shut and support our President to keep other countries from getting any. As far as I am concerned, NO Country should have nuclear weapons.
Unfortunately money will keep Netanyahu in power for another term and that is a deterrent for Peace
in that part of the World. I am just so puzzled why the wealthy Jews support the GOP who does not like Jews. The latest example the suicide of a Missouri Candidate for Governor. Even though he was a Republican, they had a whisper campaign going that he was a Jew and should not win. Fact is that he was an Episcopalian and one of his Grandfathers was a Jew. That is how deep the hatred goes towards Jews in the GOP.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> Designer1234
> here is my opinion: Netanyahu is poison. With him in power, no progress will be seen. He likes trouble to continue so he can get on his platform and keep the money coming. He should be on his knees and thank President Obama for negotiating with Iran. Perhaps he does want the situation in Iran AS IS.
> Israel has Nuclear Weapons, so he should keep his mouth shut and support our President to keep other countries from getting any. As far as I am concerned, NO Country should have nuclear weapons.
> Unfortunately money will keep Netanyahu in power for another term and that is a deterrent for Peace
> in that part of the World. I am just so puzzled why the wealthy Jews support the GOP who does not like Jews. The latest example the suicide of a Missouri Candidate for Governor. Even though he was a Republican, they had a whisper campaign going that he was a Jew and should not win. Fact is that he was an Episcopalian and one of his Grandfathers was a Jew. That is how deep the hatred goes towards Jews in the GOP.


According to the Israeli blogs I receive, Hertzog is running neck and neck with Netanyahu so there may be a shift. Your wish for no nukes is admirable but not realistic. Wealthy Jews or any wealthy person supports the GOP because they do not want to pay higher taxes, they want laws favoring their maintaining their wealth and are not interesting in their tax dollars going to social programs. If they are in business, they prefer non-union workers to keep their profit margins higher. Religious Jews tend to lean towards Netanyahu because they like his show of strength and believe that his toughness is good for Israel since Israel has no real friends. All this is not new. I was working for a Jewish agency in Boston during the Nixon years and was appalled then how many of the people there were in support of Nixon even tho they knew he was a first-class anti-semite. I quit the job for that reason. Many business people favor the GOP so what is happening now is nothing new.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Funny: Donald Trump AGAIN running for President? Not likely - he just needs to keep his puss on the screen.
EVEN MORE FUNNY: He is for traditional Family. I guess his traditional Families divorce at least twice.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> According to the Israeli blogs I receive, Hertzog is running neck and neck with Netanyahu so there may be a shift. Your wish for no nukes is admirable but not realistic. Wealthy Jews or any wealthy person supports the GOP because they do not want to pay higher taxes, they want laws favoring their maintaining their wealth and are not interesting in their tax dollars going to social programs. If they are in business, they prefer non-union workers to keep their profit margins higher. Religious Jews tend to lean towards Netanyahu because they like his show of strength and believe that his toughness is good for Israel since Israel has no real friends. All this is not new. I was working for a Jewish agency in Boston during the Nixon years and was appalled then how many of the people there were in support of Nixon even tho they knew he was a first-class anti-semite. I quit the job for that reason. Many business people favor the GOP so what is happening now is nothing new.


SQM
Israel will have more Friends IF it votes for a different Leader. Netanyahu unfortunately represents the Jews of Israel and he is not making any new Friends INSTEAD he is treating those who have been Friends miserably. He is a Shyster who is looking out for one person only and that is himself. His attitude towards WE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE is despicable. It is our Tax money that he has been collecting and on whose dime he keeps travelling to slap us in the face. The people of Israel need to wake up and listen to those who truly are supporting their cause and those are the democratically thinking People of the USA as well as of other Countries. If Israel has no friends, it needs to examine itself why. And the present situation points out quite clearly what the problem is and it is one that can be solved. I know, other issues enter into this but to take a first step towards a remedy is important. It is the Netanyahus and the Putins who make the live of their Citizens very difficult. Egotists who want to be Dictators are always causing trouble. They love to run rough shot over everyone.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Funny: Donald Trump AGAIN running for President? Not likely - he just needs to keep his puss on the screen.
> EVEN MORE FUNNY: He is for traditional Family. I guess his
> traditional Families divorce at least twice.


The man is farce personified! He also thinks he has the ultimate answer in dealing with ISIS and that is his superior negotiating skills!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

This has been a long time coming. Makes me think Iraq has only just woken up from this nightmare:

http://www.9news.com.au/AFP/2015/03/03/03/00/Iraq-launches-major-assault-to-retake-Tikrit-from-IS


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> This has been a long time coming. Makes me think Iraq has only just woken up from this nightmare:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/AFP/2015/03/03/03/00/Iraq-launches-major-assault-to-retake-Tikrit-from-IS


Wombatnomore
if Iraq wants to survive it will have no choice but to fight from within.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Designer1234
> here is my opinion: Netanyahu is poison. With him in power, no progress will be seen. He likes trouble to continue so he can get on his platform and keep the money coming. He should be on his knees and thank President Obama for negotiating with Iran. Perhaps he does want the situation in Iran AS IS.
> Israel has Nuclear Weapons, so he should keep his mouth shut and support our President to keep other countries from getting any. As far as I am concerned, NO Country should have nuclear weapons.
> Unfortunately money will keep Netanyahu in power for another term and that is a deterrent for Peace
> in that part of the World. I am just so puzzled why the wealthy Jews support the GOP who does not like Jews. The latest example the suicide of a Missouri Candidate for Governor. Even though he was a Republican, they had a whisper campaign going that he was a Jew and should not win. Fact is that he was an Episcopalian and one of his Grandfathers was a Jew. That is how deep the hatred goes towards Jews in the GOP.


I value your opinion and actually I wish the best Government for Israel. I do think it was a slap in the face by Bohner and Netanyahu for him to accept the invitation without approval from the Whitehouse. I also think it was a definite insult to Obama for Bohner to thumb his nose at the White House. Who do you think will beat the Israel Prime Minister if in fact he loses the Election in March?


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

I have finally been able to book my son's car in for repairs. I will take it in to the smash repairers next Tuesday, March 10th. at 8.00 am. The repairer left a message on the answering machine on Friday but they close at 2.00 pm on Fridays and I did not arrive home until after that time. They are closed on Saturdays and yesterday, Monday, was a public holiday here.

I rang the smash repairer on Thursday to see what was happening and they said they had not submitted the figures to the insurer and it would probably be later this week before they did the paper work. I rang the insurer and they said they would contact the repairer. 

Initially they said that it would be the 16th before they could take the car in for repairs but I managed to talk them into an earlier date.

I have just received a phone call from the repairer, it came through whilst I was typing. Apparently my son is entitled to a free hire care whilst his car is in for repairs. Only snag is that he has to produce a credit card and his driver's licence. He does not have a credit card, so he will have to use mine. He just has to produce his driver's licence. I hope he is not working next Tuesday morning because I cannot produce his licence for him, nor can I produce my driver's licence and drive the hire car because my name is not on his car insurance policy, it has to be him. The credit card is because they need to take a $250 bond, which will be returned when the car is returned to the hire firm undamaged.

Things take so long and seem to have so many unnecessary hindrances, the days of the simple operation are gone. At least the insurance company is going to repair the car and not write it off.

I just noticed the date stamp on this post. It is still yesterday, Monday, over there. It is mid morning, Tuesday, here. Almost lunch time for those over the east.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I value your opinion and actually I wish the best Government for Israel. I do think it was a slap in the face by Bohner and Netanyahu for him to accept the invitation without approval from the Whitehouse. I also think it was a definite insult to Obama for Bohner to thumb his nose at the White House. Who do you think will beat the Israel Prime Minister if in fact he loses the Election in March?


Designer1234

I want the best for all people in the World. The only way they can have it is for all of us to care about everyone.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I have finally been able to book my son's car in for repairs. I will take it in to the smash repairers next Tuesday, March 10th. at 8.00 am. The repairer left a message on the answering machine on Friday but they close at 2.00 pm on Fridays and I did not arrive home until after that time. They are closed on Saturdays and yesterday, Monday, was a public holiday here.
> 
> I rang the smash repairer on Thursday to see what was happening and they said they had not submitted the figures to the insurer and it would probably be later this week before they did the paper work. I rang the insurer and they said they would contact the repairer.
> 
> ...


Good news. Glad they didn't write it off as a total loss.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Max is the curly headed one on the right.


Knitter from Nebraska
What a lovely family picture. Thanks for sharing.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> Designer1234
> 
> I want the best for all people in the World. The only way they can have it is for all of us to care about everyone.


I agree Huck. We share this planet and I feel we must all protect it and all who reside here.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Netanyahu: Perhaps it turns out that what Netanyahu tried to accomplish backfires and Iran is more inclined to go with our diplomatic demands just to kick the ..Yahu in the butt. This speech was nothing but grandstanding so that the gullible voters of Israel vote for him once again. Nothing he said, needed to be said right now. Netanyahu is a War Monger and never has the best interest of Israel at Heart. I feel for the Nation that deserves Peace at last.

What was so sad to see is the "ups and downs" of the GOP for a foreign leader whereas they sat on their butts when our President who advanced our Country in so many ways, spoke. President Obama took over a country in shambles and got it back on its feet in a very solid way. If that does not deserve applause, what does. 

Netanyahu makes no friends for Jews, he alienates more and more people around the World.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Obama is willing to give Iran more time which is exactly what will do harm to Israel - Time to build their nuclear capabilities. When Iran goes on the record saying they will destroy Israel, the game changes. Sorry but I liked what Netanyahu said.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

MrsB said:


> Try a 15 hour flight to Australia from the West Coast-oy!


I'm fantasizing about taking a ten week cruise on a cargo ship. The leg from Los Angeles to Melbourne is a little more than 6,500 miles.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I'm fantasizing about taking a ten week cruise on a cargo ship. The leg from Los Angeles to Melbourne is a little more than 6,500 miles.


Wow! I'm sure that would be an amazing experience. What have you come to know about doing it?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I'm fantasizing about taking a ten week cruise on a cargo ship. The leg from Los Angeles to Melbourne is a little more than 6,500 miles.


Grandma, what long legs you have. :shock:


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> Obama is willing to give Iran more time which is exactly what will do harm to Israel - Time to build their nuclear capabilities. When Iran goes on the record saying they will destroy Israel, the game changes. Sorry but I liked what Netanyahu said.


SQM
that talk has been around for 20 years and we have been diligent in keeping an eye on Iran. Don't be sorry, we are entitled to our opinions. My opinion against Netanyahu is stronger now than before his speech. That speech was given for his political game. Everything he said would have been just as important or unimportant after the elections in Israel but he wanted to make points with Voters and actually really stepped into some stinky mess. When almost 200 Israeli Generals were against his snubbing our President, it should mean a lot to the People of Israel. I want the people of Israel to have a more peaceful future which under the leadership of Netanyahu cannot be achieved. Heart breaking it is.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My personal opinion of PM Netanyahu's speech.

I feel he is more intent upon his personal agenda than Israel's.

I am not a fool for the leaders of the Middle Eastern states. Furthermore I am thoroughly disappointed in all members of our Congress who participated in this circus. I have hope for President Obama's quest for a diplomatic peace. 

Seems war has been tried for decades to no avail. Why not try something new? It doesn't have to mean you trust your enemies.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> Obama is willing to give Iran more time which is exactly what will do harm to Israel - Time to build their nuclear capabilities. When Iran goes on the record saying they will destroy Israel, the game changes. Sorry but I liked what Netanyahu said.


I thought it was a fear-mongering political speech. It was wrong to invite him to speak and it was wrong of him to accept.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> I thought it was a fear-mongering political speech. It was wrong to invite him to speak and it was wrong of him to accept.


And it was stupid and foolish of Boehner to hatch this scheme. :hunf: :hunf: :hunf:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I'm fantasizing about taking a ten week cruise on a cargo ship. The leg from Los Angeles to Melbourne is a little more than 6,500 miles.


I found a wealth of information on the web relating to taking a trip on a cargo trip today. It is not a cheap form of transport and you have to be able to entertain yourself as there is no 'on board' entertainment as there is with the cruise liners but I think the advantages would outweigh the disadvantages. It seems that you have to book 6 months in advanced for the trip as there are only limited cabins available on the ships. I just googled 'cruising on a cargo ship today'. One site that came up was

http://www.transitionsabroad.com/listings/travel/articles/travel-by-cargo-ship-around-the-world.shtml


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> I thought it was a fear-mongering political speech. It was wrong to invite him to speak and it was wrong of him to accept.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> And it was stupid and foolish of Boehner to hatch this scheme. :hunf: :hunf: :hunf:


 :XD: :hunf: :mrgreen:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I found a wealth of information on the web relating to taking a trip on a cargo trip today. It is not a cheap form of transport and you have to be able to entertain yourself as there is no 'on board' entertainment as there is with the cruise liners but I think the advantages would outweigh the disadvantages. It seems that you have to book 6 months in advanced for the trip as there are only limited cabins available on the ships. I just googled 'cruising on a cargo ship today'. One site that came up was
> 
> http://www.transitionsabroad.com/listings/travel/articles/travel-by-cargo-ship-around-the-world.shtml


That sounds so interesting. I think I'd like that. I'd have no problem entertaining myself. Thanks for sharing that.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

On an intellectual level a trip on a cargo ship sounds like fun, but if you look up my name in a dictionary you'll find me under 'seasickness.'



EveMCooke said:


> I found a wealth of information on the web relating to taking a trip on a cargo trip today. It is not a cheap form of transport and you have to be able to entertain yourself as there is no 'on board' entertainment as there is with the cruise liners but I think the advantages would outweigh the disadvantages. It seems that you have to book 6 months in advanced for the trip as there are only limited cabins available on the ships. I just googled 'cruising on a cargo ship today'. One site that came up was
> 
> http://www.transitionsabroad.com/listings/travel/articles/travel-by-cargo-ship-around-the-world.shtml


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> On an intellectual level a trip on a cargo ship sounds like fun, but if you look up my name in a dictionary you'll find me under 'seasickness.'


Yes I saw that, but my entry has the added words: Avoid all risks relating to the possibility of drowning.

I felt horribly seasick on the 12 hour overnight crossing from Melbourne, Victoria to Davenport, Tasmania on the Ferry. We had to take the ferry because the VW Kombi just would not fit on an aeroplane. I did not sleep but I felt OK until I smelt the breakfast cooking smells wafting from the galley. I think I turned vivid green. I went out on deck despite the howling gale, I was not the only one. There was one smart alec there who was determined to stir us us. He kept repeating "mmmm grilled sausages, fire bacon, fried eggs, yummy". I think we had to be physically restrained to stop us from throwing him overboard.

You know my definition of an ocean cruise: being cooped up on a converted sheep carrier with a lot of people you really do not want to know, doing a lot of things you normally do not do, with the added pleasure of non stop seasickness and the added bonus of a possibility of drowning. Now doesn't that sound like sooooooo much fun?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes I saw that, but my entry has the added words: Avoid all risks relating to the possibility of drowning.
> 
> I felt horribly seasick on the 12 hour overnight crossing from Melbourne, Victoria to Davenport, Tasmania on the Ferry. We had to take the ferry because the VW Kombi just would not fit on an aeroplane. I did not sleep but I felt OK until I smelt the breakfast cooking smells wafting from the galley. I think I turned vivid green. I went out on deck despite the howling gale, I was not the only one. There was one smart alec there who was determined to stir us us. He kept repeating "mmmm grilled sausages, fire bacon, fried eggs, yummy". I think we had to be physically restrained to stop us from throwing him overboard.
> 
> You know my definition of an ocean cruise: being cooped up on a converted sheep carrier with a lot of people you really do not want to know, doing a lot of things you normally do not do, with the added pleasure of non stop seasickness and the added bonus of a possibility of drowning. Now doesn't that sound like sooooooo much fun?


You have confirmed my fears, dear friend.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> My personal opinion of PM Netanyahu's speech.
> 
> I feel he is more intent upon his personal agenda than Israel's.
> 
> ...


damemary
just imagine the uproar if an American President would do to Israel what Netanyahu did to our Country. Lord oh Lord President Obama is getting the cold shoulder already even though he supports Israel with Billions of our Tax Dollars. Netanyahu made it perfectly clear why President Obama is not in total agreement with him and rightfully so. We are sick and tired of War while Netanyahu promotes it. Obviously Netanyahu wanted to point out that he cares not about WE THE PEOPLE (nor his own), only himself. Just think how he must treat his Enemies. We can be proud of our President who tries Diplomacy to the highest degree to keep all People of the World safe.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Wow! I'm sure that would be an amazing experience. What have you come to know about doing it?


Some cargo ships have a little space for passengers, from 1 to 12. If they have more than 12 they have to get classified as cruise ships. Cabins are small but look comfy. One needs to book some of the voyages way ahead of time. There are two I'd like to get on and they are now booking in 2016. It takes 70 days to go from Los Angeles to Auckland, Melbourne, Sydney, Tauranga, and back to Oakland and Los Angeles. There isn't the kind of entertainment a on a regular cruise ship. One makes up one's own fun.

The more time I am housebound, the more my traveling feet want to be indulged. I am also plotting train trips around the US and starting to wonder about spending time in the UK, Western and Northern Europe. I'm getting as much info about costs as possible so I can figure out how many of my fantasies I can make real. Also gathering info about the various destinations. A big factor in trying to travel extensively means having no responsibilities at home.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> :XD: :hunf: :mrgreen:


I wonder what people think who voted for him. I imagine they are all ecstatic right now as it was such an insult to the President.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I wonder what people think who voted for him. I imagine they are all ecstatic right now as it was such an insult to the President.


Love when you write such uninformed emails.

Israel is pretty much split on the issue of "The Talk". Just as they are split about re-electing Netanyahu.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)




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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I found a wealth of information on the web relating to taking a trip on a cargo trip today. It is not a cheap form of transport and you have to be able to entertain yourself as there is no 'on board' entertainment as there is with the cruise liners but I think the advantages would outweigh the disadvantages. It seems that you have to book 6 months in advanced for the trip as there are only limited cabins available on the ships. I just googled 'cruising on a cargo ship today'. One site that came up was
> 
> http://www.transitionsabroad.com/listings/travel/articles/travel-by-cargo-ship-around-the-world.shtml


I just wrote a long reply and accidentally sent it into the void. I've checked out the link you gave along with many other websites about passenger travel on cargo ships. The cost per day is around $100 compared to $300-$400 per day for a real cruise with all the frills. The trips get expensive because the cargo ships take longer to get wherever they're going. There is one trip I'd like to take from Los Angeles to Auckland, Melbourne, Sydney, Tauranga, Oakland, and back to Los Angeles.

All the sites I've looked at recommend taking a short trip on a cargo ship before getting committed to taking a long one. Great advice! Who wants to get stuck with a 70 day trip that's awful? I also have to have no responsibilities at home. There are a lot of factors to be considered and my list of them gets longer and longer. Maybe I'm only day-dreaming, which doesn't cost anything but is highly entertaining. I'm not even going to tell you about all the train trips I want to take...  :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> damemary
> just imagine the uproar if an American President would do to Israel what Netanyahu did to our Country. Lord oh Lord President Obama is getting the cold shoulder already even though he supports Israel with Billions of our Tax Dollars. Netanyahu made it perfectly clear why President Obama is not in total agreement with him and rightfully so. We are sick and tired of War while Netanyahu promotes it. Obviously Netanyahu wanted to point out that he cares not about WE THE PEOPLE (nor his own), only himself. Just think how he must treat his Enemies. We can be proud of our President who tries Diplomacy to the highest degree to keep all People of the World safe.


Huckleberry, I'm glad you're around to tell those dumb Israelis what's going on in their country and why they're all voting wrong.

If we're sick of war, don't you think Israel is, too? Playing footsies with Iran is going to make Israel less, not more, secure. The US will survive no matter what the outcome, but there's no reason to feel the same about Israel.

Oh, well. A French foreign minister once referred to it as "your $hirty little country." Why bother with it?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I wonder what people think who voted for him. I imagine they are all ecstatic right now as it was such an insult to the President.


Do you really think the Israeli population is so petty as to be "ecstatic" over insulting a foreign president? They're busy worrying about how to stay alive, and all you can see is the insult to a leader who has NEVER shown any friendliness to Israel.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes I saw that, but my entry has the added words: Avoid all risks relating to the possibility of drowning.
> 
> I felt horribly seasick on the 12 hour overnight crossing from Melbourne, Victoria to Davenport, Tasmania on the Ferry. We had to take the ferry because the VW Kombi just would not fit on an aeroplane. I did not sleep but I felt OK until I smelt the breakfast cooking smells wafting from the galley. I think I turned vivid green. I went out on deck despite the howling gale, I was not the only one. There was one smart alec there who was determined to stir us us. He kept repeating "mmmm grilled sausages, fire bacon, fried eggs, yummy". I think we had to be physically restrained to stop us from throwing him overboard.
> 
> You know my definition of an ocean cruise: being cooped up on a converted sheep carrier with a lot of people you really do not want to know, doing a lot of things you normally do not do, with the added pleasure of non stop seasickness and the added bonus of a possibility of drowning. Now doesn't that sound like sooooooo much fun?


My husband and I had a small boat, 48 feet, so it probably doesn't compare very well when it comes to sea-sickness, but I never had it and even spent a few months living on board. The risk of drowning is something to consider. Falling over board on a giant ship with a very small crew could well mean not even being noticed.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> My husband and I had a small boat, 48 feet, so it probably doesn't compare very well when it comes to sea-sickness, but I never had it and even spent a few months living on board. The risk of drowning is something to consider. Falling over board on a giant ship with a very small crew could well mean not even being noticed.


Do not plan to fall overboard. I enjoy reading about your travel dreams. Would love to go to Australia but only in a time capsule. I don't think I would have the patience to fly for so many hours.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> damemary
> just imagine the uproar if an American President would do to Israel what Netanyahu did to our Country. Lord oh Lord President Obama is getting the cold shoulder already even though he supports Israel with Billions of our Tax Dollars. Netanyahu made it perfectly clear why President Obama is not in total agreement with him and rightfully so. We are sick and tired of War while Netanyahu promotes it. Obviously Netanyahu wanted to point out that he cares not about WE THE PEOPLE (nor his own), only himself. Just think how he must treat his Enemies. We can be proud of our President who tries Diplomacy to the highest degree to keep all People of the World safe.


I have tried my hardest to not enter into this conversation, but I just can't keep still any longer. You said, "Just imagine the uproar if an American President would do to Israel what Netanyahu did to our country.". WHAT did Netanyahu DO to our country? It would seem to me that he's merely returning the favor. Obama has disrespected him over and over! Obama has disrespected Israel and her people! He has chosen ALL of her enemies over her. Some of you say that Netanyahu wants war. The way I see it, it is obama who wants war. He has been overturning governments all over the middle east, so what's he trying to do with Israel? The man is evil! Israel depends upon the US, for her survival. He has betrayed her. He is wheeling and dealing with the Iranians and is allowing them nuclear weapons. The Iranians cannot be trusted. They WILL use those weapons against Israel. They LIVE to destroy Israel! I am so ashamed of this president and my country! We have turned our backs on GOD'S chosen people, and we will pay the price, with our own destruction! Evil is running our country!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I wonder what people think who voted for him. I imagine they are all ecstatic right now as it was such an insult to the President.


I think the people who voted for Netanyahu believed that he would protect them, not sell them out.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Huckleberry, I'm glad you're around to tell those dumb Israelis what's going on in their country and why they're all voting wrong.
> 
> If we're sick of war, don't you think Israel is, too? Playing footsies with Iran is going to make Israel less, not more, secure. The US will survive no matter what the outcome, but there's no reason to feel the same about Israel.
> 
> Oh, well. A French foreign minister once referred to it as "your $hirty little country." Why bother with it?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Do you really think the Israeli population is so petty as to be "ecstatic" over insulting a foreign president? They're busy worrying about how to stay alive, and all you can see is the insult to a leader who has NEVER shown any friendliness to Israel.


We are SO much in agreement on this issue!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think the people who voted for Netanyahu believed that he would protect them, not sell them out.


Obviously, I have stepped on toes here. I apologize and will stay out of this conversation - - I should have booked off KP for this past while and not tried to speak my opinion and my questions- I do believe, however that the US and possibly Israel have not gained from his speech. Especially the US. 
I am out of here as I seem to be antagonizing a lot of you and that was not my intent. It is one of those cases when those who are not involved should just shut up I guess. I guess feelings are too strong . Those who dislike Obama are certainly not going to take his side, no matter what he does. Those who like Netenyahu are going to agree with him and if they don't they will likely disagree. Especially, I would think, in Israel.

Just one thing from the Day that Israel became a Nation, I have been absolutely Pro Israel, and I still am.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> We are SO much in agreement on this issue!


I understand, but I also remember the millions if not billions of dollars given to Israel by the US. For that reason alone I think it would have been more proper to say he would speak as long as it met the approval of your President which has been protocol in situations like this.

That is it from me.

I am glad Judy that Grace survived the surgery. My thoughts are with her.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I just wrote a long reply and accidentally sent it into the void. I've checked out the link you gave along with many other websites about passenger travel on cargo ships. The cost per day is around $100 compared to $300-$400 per day for a real cruise with all the frills. The trips get expensive because the cargo ships take longer to get wherever they're going. There is one trip I'd like to take from Los Angeles to Auckland, Melbourne, Sydney, Tauranga, Oakland, and back to Los Angeles.
> 
> All the sites I've looked at recommend taking a short trip on a cargo ship before getting committed to taking a long one. Great advice! Who wants to get stuck with a 70 day trip that's awful? I also have to have no responsibilities at home. There are a lot of factors to be considered and my list of them gets longer and longer. Maybe I'm only day-dreaming, which doesn't cost anything but is highly entertaining. I'm not even going to tell you about all the train trips I want to take...  :thumbup:


Train trips, now theres a thought. Maybe we should compare the mental itineraries. I have always wanted to do the Ghan, here in Australia. Then there is the Trans Siberian, followed by the trip through the Canadian Rockies. I can skip the Indian Pacific because I think I had a better journey way back in 1958. 8 trains and 8 days, each way. Some trains steam trains. Perth to Cairns. Back then rail travel was cheap, but not any longer. They have the luxury 1st class cabins with all the trimmings, the 1st class with less trimmings and then the sit up all the way. I watch the Indian Pacific when it passes the bottom of my property each week and it is a mile long but relatively few passengers for the length of the train. I want a small cabin but I do not need the 1st class dining car with expensive meals and wines and other facilities. I am happy with cheaper second class travel. The trains are is chasing the luxury overseas tourist trade. My sister did the Ghan a few years ago and would not recommend it. The line is the high speed freight line from Adelaide to Darwin and if a freight train is coming through then the Ghan is shunted into a siding and can be stuck there for several hours. Being stuck in the middle of the outback in the heat is not all that inviting. Even though the train is fully air conditioned it is s till not the best way to spend time, stuck in a rail siding on the Ghan line. My friend did the Trans Siberian and hated it, but I think it was a shock to her system. I am not saying that she is 'toffee nosed' but....... she does prefer very gentle past times.

As for losing what you have typed, it happens to me so often. I often wonder if I am accidentally pressing 'ctrl' instead of the shift key when I type. Old age and all that. Didn't have a 'ctrl' key on the old manual typewriters. I often type in word and cut and paste it across as I think it is safer that way.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Obviously, I have stepped on toes here. I apologize and will stay out of this conversation - - I should have booked off KP for this past while and not tried to speak my opinion and my questions- I do believe, however that the US and possibly Israel have not gained from his speech. Especially the US.
> I am out of here as I seem to be antagonizing a lot of you and that was not my intent. It is one of those cases when those who are not involved should just shut up I guess. I guess feelings are too strong . Those who dislike Obama are certainly not going to take his side, no matter what he does. Those who like Netenyahu are going to agree with him and if they don't they will likely disagree. Especially, I would think, in Israel.
> 
> Just one thing from the Day that Israel became a Nation, I have been absolutely Pro Israel, and I still am.


Shirley, I didn't think you were antagonizing. You're entitled to your opinion and I was just expressing mine. IMO, obama snubbed netanyahu long before any of this took place. I may or may not agree with netanyahu but I strongly believe that the Israelis have the right to choose their own leader. I also believe that long ago, we accepted the responsibility for aiding and protecting Israel. She has always been our strongest ally in the middle east and I can't imagine betraying her because we don't like the leader she has chosen.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I understand, but I also remember the millions if not billions of dollars given to Israel by the US. For that reason alone I think it would have been more proper to say he would speak as long as it met the approval of your President which has been protocol in situations like this.
> 
> That is it from me.
> 
> I am glad Judy that Grace survived the surgery. My thoughts are with her.


There's one problem with your scenario. Obama would never give approval for netanyahu to speak. Netanyahu was hedging his bets by going straight to congress. He knows he will not get cooperative support from obama. Obama IS going to allow Iran to have nuclear weapons. So, what choice did netanyahu have but to go around obama?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Obviously, I have stepped on toes here. I apologize and will stay out of this conversation - - I should have booked off KP for this past while and not tried to speak my opinion and my questions- I do believe, however that the US and possibly Israel have not gained from his speech. Especially the US.
> I am out of here as I seem to be antagonizing a lot of you and that was not my intent. It is one of those cases when those who are not involved should just shut up I guess. I guess feelings are too strong . Those who dislike Obama are certainly not going to take his side, no matter what he does. Those who like Netenyahu are going to agree with him and if they don't they will likely disagree. Especially, I would think, in Israel.
> 
> Just one thing from the Day that Israel became a Nation, I have been absolutely Pro Israel, and I still am.


I guess we are not allowed to voice our opinions on Israel, Shirl. 
My posts were not meant to insult or to aggravate either. Just voicing my opinion on the whole mess.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Shirley, I didn't think you were antagonizing. You're entitled to your opinion and I was just expressing mine. IMO, obama snubbed netanyahu long before any of this took place. I may or may not agree with netanyahu but I strongly believe that the Israelis have the right to choose their own leader. I also believe that long ago, we accepted the responsibility for aiding and protecting Israel. She has always been our strongest ally in the middle east and I can't imagine betraying her because we don't like the leader she has chosen.


I don't think that we are betraying Israel. Why can't Netanyahu wait another 2 to 3 weeks to see the results of the talks going on? 
It's known that Obama and Netanyahu clash on many issues.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I guess we are not allowed to voice our opinions on Israel, Shirl.
> My posts were not meant to insult or to aggravate either. Just voicing my opinion on the whole mess.


I think everyone is just voicing their opinions. I see nothing insulting about it. We just think differently.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I don't think that we are betraying Israel. Why can't Netanyahu wait another 2 to 3 weeks to see the results of the talks going on?
> It's known that Obama and Netanyahu clash on many issues.


IMO, the results of the talks are irrelevant. Iran cannot be trusted to uphold any agreement. Iran is the enemy of the US and Israel. Remember, for decades Iran has vowed to destroy the great satan (the US) and the little satan (Israel). IMO, a deal made with them, isn't worth the paper it's written on. Their koran teaches them to lie, cheat and steal from their enemies.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, the results of the talks are irrelevant. Iran cannot be trusted to uphold any agreement. Iran is the enemy of the US and Israel. Remember, for decades Iran has vowed to destroy the great satan (the US) and the little satan (Israel). IMO, a deal made with them, isn't worth the paper it's written on. Their koran teaches them to lie, cheat and steal from their enemies.


If there is just an iota of a chance for peace, I'll hang on to that.
I am not choosing Iran over Israel or Muslims over Jews, or who's leader is better. I just don't like the way congress went about things.
I know that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a pain in the patootie and a dangerous man and so does the rest of the world. If the other world leaders and our leader can come up with a solution, then I say give them the time they need to do it. Jumping the gun can only ignite much worse scenarios over in the ME. JMHO


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> Love when you write such uninformed emails.
> 
> Israel is pretty much split on the issue of "The Talk". Just as they are split about re-electing Netanyahu.


SQM
Designer 1234 is better informed about our Country than most of my fellow Citizens. Sad to have to make such a confession.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> SQM
> Designer 1234 is better informed about our Country than most of my fellow Citizens. Sad to have to make such a confession.


Her comments about Israel were a bit ignorant.

I am not criticizing her knowledge of the States but her comments about Israel.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Huckleberry, I'm glad you're around to tell those dumb Israelis what's going on in their country and why they're all voting wrong.
> 
> If we're sick of war, don't you think Israel is, too? Playing footsies with Iran is going to make Israel less, not more, secure. The US will survive no matter what the outcome, but there's no reason to feel the same about Israel.
> 
> Oh, well. A French foreign minister once referred to it as "your $hirty little country." Why bother with it?


Poor Purl
I have shown nothing but sympathy towards the people of Israel. It is their Leader whom I despise because he makes the Life of the People more miserable than necessary. And if you do not like President Obama's negotiations, I must deduct from that that you prefer War over diplomatic negotiations. Fact is that the majority of the People of Iran love the Americans and if we can buy time, we have a chance to bring about changes in that country without warfare. As history shows us the worst enemies can become good friends, I vote for becoming friends without trying to kill each other first. Israel is in a tough spot and can be in at the brink of War in a heart beat so why not at least support our President who will do everything to keep Israel alive. Well, perhaps my approach is more humanitarian than that of others and therefore I see diplomacy as an approach that should never be neglected and be pushed to the limit. There is no skill in destruction but a whole lot in diplomacy.
Playing footsies with Iran? Another fib being spread and bought apparently. By the way, we are not the only Country negotiating with Iran, are we? There is much at stake for many Nations and those who are negotiating have a heavy burden to carry and I wish them success because we all shall benefit from it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I have tried my hardest to not enter into this conversation, but I just can't keep still any longer. You said, "Just imagine the uproar if an American President would do to Israel what Netanyahu did to our country.". WHAT did Netanyahu DO to our country? It would seem to me that he's merely returning the favor. Obama has disrespected him over and over! Obama has disrespected Israel and her people! He has chosen ALL of her enemies over her. Some of you say that Netanyahu wants war. The way I see it, it is obama who wants war. He has been overturning governments all over the middle east, so what's he trying to do with Israel? The man is evil! Israel depends upon the US, for her survival. He has betrayed her. He is wheeling and dealing with the Iranians and is allowing them nuclear weapons. The Iranians cannot be trusted. They WILL use those weapons against Israel. They LIVE to destroy Israel! I am so ashamed of this president and my country! We have turned our backs on GOD'S chosen people, and we will pay the price, with our own destruction! Evil is running our country!


I wish you hadn't ended your message this way, because I agreed with the beginning.

"The man" is not evil. And the chosen people choose not to be chosen. Thank you.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> We are SO much in agreement on this issue!


We are. Except for speaking about Pres. Obama as if he were the Antichrist. That's where I draw the line.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Shirley, I didn't think you were antagonizing. You're entitled to your opinion and I was just expressing mine. IMO, obama snubbed netanyahu long before any of this took place. I may or may not agree with netanyahu but I strongly believe that the Israelis have the right to choose their own leader. I also believe that long ago, we accepted the responsibility for aiding and protecting Israel. She has always been our strongest ally in the middle east and I can't imagine betraying her because we don't like the leader she has chosen.


Thank you. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Poor Purl
> I have shown nothing but sympathy towards the people of Israel. It is their Leader whom I despise because he makes the Life of the People more miserable than necessary. And if you do not like President Obama's negotiations, I must deduct from that that you prefer War over diplomatic negotiations. Fact is that the majority of the People of Iran love the Americans and if we can buy time, we have a chance to bring about changes in that country without warfare. As history shows us the worst enemies can become good friends, I vote for becoming friends without trying to kill each other first. Israel is in a tough spot and can be in at the brink of War in a heart beat so why not at least support our President who will do everything to keep Israel alive. Well, perhaps my approach is more humanitarian than that of others and therefore I see diplomacy as an approach that should never be neglected and be pushed to the limit. There is no skill in destruction but a whole lot in diplomacy.
> Playing footsies with Iran? Another fib being spread and bought apparently. By the way, we are not the only Country negotiating with Iran, are we? There is much at stake for many Nations and those who are negotiating have a heavy burden to carry and I wish them success because we all shall benefit from it.


Sometimes, the only deterrent to war is the threat of destruction. The US did its fair share of wheeling and dealing with hitler, before we entered the second world war. American car companies built their tanks. American oil companies supplied their fuel. It's great to try and be friends with the world, but you need to be realistic. Some people can't be trusted to hold up their end of the deal. Sometimes, you should hold your enemies at arm's length. That's my opinion.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I wish you hadn't ended your message this way, because I agreed with the beginning.
> 
> "The man" is not evil. And the chosen people choose not to be chosen. Thank you.


I figured that absolutely no one would agree with me on that. But I have to stay true to myself. I am a bible believing Christian. I see things through the filter of prophecy. I see prophecy unfolding. I understand that no one will agree with me, but so be it.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I figured that absolutely no one would agree with me on that. But I have to stay true to myself. I am a bible believing Christian. I see things through the filter of prophecy. I see prophecy unfolding. I understand that no one will agree with me, but so be it.


You still have a good grasp of politics.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> We are. Except for speaking about Pres. Obama as if he were the Antichrist. That's where I draw the line.


In know. But that's not where I draw my line. I have no idea if obama is the antichrist or not, but I experience a visceral sense of evil when I see him or hear him. So, we're not going to agree on anything about him.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> You still have a good grasp of politics.


Well, thank you!

IMO, the story is as old as time. It's the battle between good and evil. We're all being deceived. We're being told that good is evil, and evil is good.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> Her comments about Israel were a bit ignorant.
> 
> I am not criticizing her knowledge of the States but her comments about Israel.


SQM
as I said before we are all entitled to our opinions and since we may have different facts, we arrive at different opinions. Many of mine come from family and Friends who reside in that part of the World.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Sometimes, the only deterrent to war is the threat of destruction. The US did its fair share of wheeling and dealing with hitler, before we entered the second world war. American car companies built their tanks. American oil companies supplied their fuel. It's great to try and be friends with the world, but you need to be realistic. Some people can't be trusted to hold up their end of the deal. Sometimes, you should hold your enemies at arm's length. That's my opinion.


Knitter from Nebraska
are we not always prepared to go to War? And since many Countries count on us for various reasons, we are capable destruct in a heart beat and the world knows it. Let us try Peace before anything else for the sake of all of us.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> In know. But that's not where I draw my line. I have no idea if obama is the antichrist or not, but I experience a visceral sense of evil when I see him or hear him. So, we're not going to agree on anything about him.


Knitter from Nebraska
since you consider yourself a true Christian, you need to examine your conclusions.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> SQM
> as I said before we are all entitled to our opinions and since we may have different facts, we arrive at different opinions. Many of mine come from family and Friends who reside in that part of the World.


As do mine. Clearly there is no monolithic Jewish voice.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> are we not always prepared to go to War? And since many Countries count on us for various reasons, we are capable destruct in a heart beat and the world knows it. Let us try Peace before anything else for the sake of all of us.


See, here's the thing. We are no longer capable militarily and the world knows it. We've not won a war since world war II. obama has dismantled and neutered our military. Don't forget what Roosevelt said, "Speak softly and carry a big stick". Our stick has been whittled down to a twig.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> if you consider yourself a true Christian, you need to examine your conclusions.


I have. 
Hosea 4:6: "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> We are SO much in agreement on this issue!


Do you honestly think that I think that Israel is a Shi%ty little country? I know what Neb thinks of your President, and I am sure this mess is something she is in complete agreement with too- I find it offensive to be included as one who dislikes Jews and dislikes Israel and wishes that Israel be attacked by anyone. I also have respect for your (America's)President no matter who he is because of his Position. If Israel's Prime Minister had approached the White house with respect it would have been a different matter. in my opinion.

He still deliberately interfered in American Politics and there has been no better friend since Israel became a State. That should count for something. :hunf: :shock: :shock:

Time to turn off my computer as I can't seem to stay away from this 'discussion' it is getting more and more insulting.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Well, thank you!
> 
> IMO, the story is as old as time. It's the battle between good and evil. We're all being deceived. We're being told that good is evil, and evil is good.


So who then is good and who is evil in your mind and why?


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I have.
> Hosea 4:6: "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."


And who are "my people who are being destroyed for lack of knowledge"? Are they the Jews, Christians, Muslims maybe Protestants or Catholics? You make sweeping statements with nothing to explain yourself or support what you are saying. Are you just trying to incite animosity among the people on this thread? Your comments would be well received on the D&P thread. Maybe you would be happier there than with we liberals here.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Can I change the topic for a second? I am tired of sounding mean.

I just finished knitting a shawl made of thick chenille. I have to sew on the patch pockets but I do not know what stitch to use. Please give me a name of a stitch and I will youtube it. Do I use the chenille?

Thanks.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> See, here's the thing. We are no longer capable militarily and the world knows it. We've not won a war since world war II. obama has dismantled and neutered our military. Don't forget what Roosevelt said, "Speak softly and carry a big stick". Our stick has been whittled down to a twig.


Knitter from Nebraska
We are more than capable and that is my worry always. Obama has done what? Are you serious? I do not live in the past, I try to learn from it and adjust to the time I live in. Obama also has not started any Wars but ended them as gently as possible for which I am so thankful and I guess for which you fault him. So sad. Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld enjoyed War and went into it not to destroy a country but to keep it intact as much as possible since they wanted to take possession of the oil. I guess you would underwrite going to War and destroy a whole Nation or even more than one just to claim victory. I get the feeling that in times past there were many folks like you and therefore the bloody religious Wars. You seem to reach for the Sword whereas I prefer an Olive Branch.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Her comments about Israel were a bit ignorant.
> 
> I am not criticizing her knowledge of the States but her comments about Israel.


They were not meant to be ignorant . Quite possibly I just didn't agree with your outlook. I have been a supporter of Israel since I was a young girl. I still am, and I am not going to apologize for expressing my opinion. Read my posts, show me one place where I have implied or said that I was not a l00% believer and friend of Israel. I actually found your statement very ignorant and obviously you have ignored my posts about my feelings about Israel. I feel a connection to that country even though I am not a Jew.

That doesn't mean I have to accept Netanyahu's activities the other day, and his insult to your President. I can't get past the fact that he is ignoring everything that the US has done for Israel since day one. It has nothing to do with either of their differences or Politics. It is the history of the two countries. Obama is trying to sort out the mess in the middle east - rather than go to war. It is rather original isn't it. I don't think it is going to work, but at least he is trying. Your PrimeMinister from what I can gather has said he is the enemy. Since when has the US been the enemy of Israel. Never!!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> So who then is good and who is evil in your mind and why?


Those who lie, cheat and steal, to hold power and to rule over others are evil. The unknowing innocent are the good.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Poor Purl
> I have shown nothing but sympathy towards the people of Israel. It is their Leader whom I despise because he makes the Life of the People more miserable than necessary. And if you do not like President Obama's negotiations, I must deduct from that that you prefer War over diplomatic negotiations. Fact is that the majority of the People of Iran love the Americans and if we can buy time, we have a chance to bring about changes in that country without warfare. As history shows us the worst enemies can become good friends, I vote for becoming friends without trying to kill each other first. Israel is in a tough spot and can be in at the brink of War in a heart beat so why not at least support our President who will do everything to keep Israel alive. Well, perhaps my approach is more humanitarian than that of others and therefore I see diplomacy as an approach that should never be neglected and be pushed to the limit. There is no skill in destruction but a whole lot in diplomacy.
> Playing footsies with Iran? Another fib being spread and bought apparently. By the way, we are not the only Country negotiating with Iran, are we? There is much at stake for many Nations and those who are negotiating have a heavy burden to carry and I wish them success because we all shall benefit from it.


 :thumbup:


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Netanyahu is not my PM. 

I am tired of the topic. We are going around in circles. It is fine to disagree; I just hate to hear from some all the old anti-semitic libels.

Let us move on, please.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> Can I change the topic for a second? I am tired of sounding mean.
> 
> I just finished knitting a shawl made of thick chenille. I have to sew on the patch pockets but I do not know what stitch to use. Please give me a name of a stitch and I will youtube it. Do I use the chenille?
> 
> Thanks.


SQM
not seeing the knitted piece I do not know which stitch would be best but I would not use chenille to sew it on but
another type of yarn.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> SQM
> not seeing the knitted piece I do not know which stitch would be best but I would not use chenille to sew it on but
> another type of yarn.


Happy Purim Huckle.

Here is the link.

http://www.lionbrand.com/patterns/1180AD.html?noImages=


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Those who lie, cheat and steal, to hold power and to rule over others are evil. The unknowing innocent are the good.


Knitter from Nebraska
you are in your dark period once again. Try to snap out of it and you feel much better.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Those who lie, cheat and steal, to hold power and to rule over others are evil. The unknowing innocent are the good.


Name names please. You have very specific people in mind and I would like to know who they are. Are you innocent and good and those who disagree with you the evil ones? Pretty simplistic don't you think?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> Happy Purim Huckle.
> 
> Here is the link.
> 
> http://www.lionbrand.com/patterns/1180AD.html?noImages=


Is it time for Hamantashen?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> And who are "my people who are being destroyed for lack of knowledge"? Are they the Jews, Christians, Muslims maybe Protestants or Catholics? You make sweeping statements with nothing to explain yourself or support what you are saying. Are you just trying to incite animosity among the people on this thread? Your comments would be well received on the D&P thread. Maybe you would be happier there than with we liberals here.


ALL of us, who are being deceived by those who rule the world. This includes the Jews, Christians, Muslims, Protestants and Catholics. The power brokers of the world are playing a grand game of chess, and we are the pawns.

Why do you think I'm trying to incite animosity because I present a different view? I listen to everyone's opinion. I agree or disagree. I don't consider disagreement as animosity. And I'm not here to have my opinions be " well received". If you only listen to people with whom you agree, you will never hear anything new. I definitely would not be "well received" on D&P. KBG hates me.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> Happy Purim Huckle.
> 
> Here is the link.
> 
> http://www.lionbrand.com/patterns/1180AD.html?noImages=


SQM
I would use a running stitch to avoid bulk. Also I would use a sewing thread like Quilt thread rather than a a knitting yarn. Perhaps down the road you may want to remove the pocket and you can see the thread better. Hope to have helped a little.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> They were not meant to be ignorant . Quite possibly I just didn't agree with your outlook. I have been a supporter of Israel since I was a young girl. I still am, and I am not going to apologize for expressing my opinion. Read my posts, show me one place where I have implied or said that I was not a l00% believer and friend of Israel. I actually found your statement very ignorant and obviously you have ignored my posts about my feelings about Israel. I feel a connection to that country even though I am not a Jew.
> 
> That doesn't mean I have to accept Netanyahu's activities the other day, and his insult to your President. I can't get past the fact that he is ignoring everything that the US has done for Israel since day one. It has nothing to do with either of their differences or Politics. It is the history of the two countries. Obama is trying to sort out the mess in the middle east - rather than go to war. It is rather original isn't it. I don't think it is going to work, but at least he is trying. Your PrimeMinister from what I can gather has said he is the enemy. Since when has the US been the enemy of Israel. Never!!


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> SQM
> I would use a running stitch to avoid bulk. Also I would use a sewing thread like Quilt thread rather than a heavier one. Hope to have helped a little.


Is a running stitch just going in a line, in and out? I never heard of quilt thread. Will bring it to my knitting group. Big thanks.

Yes CQ - you should not be arguing but baking us homantashuns.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> ALL of us, who are being deceived by those who rule the world. This includes the Jews, Christians, Muslims, Protestants and Catholics. The power brokers of the world are playing a grand game of chess, and we are the pawns.
> 
> Why do you think I'm trying to incite animosity because I present a different view? I listen to everyone's opinion. I agree or disagree. I don't consider disagreement as animosity. And I'm not here to have my opinions be " well received". If you only listen to people with whom you agree, you will never hear anything new. I definitely would not be "well received" on D&P. KBG hates me.


Knitter from Nebraska
I never see myself as defeated by anyone. My glass is always at least half full. The Serenity Prayer is a good guide.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> Is a running stitch just going in a line, in and out? I never heard of quilt thread. Will bring it to my knitting group. Big thanks.
> 
> Yes CQ - you should not be arguing but baking us homantashuns.


SQM
yes it is a plain in and out stitch. You may put the pocket piece in place with a couple Safety Pins so it winds up straight.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I have.
> Hosea 4:6: "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."


Knitter from Nebraska 
Oh dear, if lack of knowledge would destroy mankind, we would have vanished long ago.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> ALL of us, who are being deceived by those who rule the world. This includes the Jews, Christians, Muslims, Protestants and Catholics. The power brokers of the world are playing a grand game of chess, and we are the pawns.
> 
> Why do you think I'm trying to incite animosity because I present a different view? I listen to everyone's opinion. I agree or disagree. I don't consider disagreement as animosity. And I'm not here to have my opinions be " well received". If you only listen to people with whom you agree, you will never hear anything new. I definitely would not be "well received" on D&P. KBG hates me.


I don't consider disagreement as animosity either but you are making remarks to many that are very leading and to some sound very condescending. I would like to know who gave you all the answers? You only give opinions and one bible quote. Your comments have no authenticity that you can back up and are purely your opinion. KPG does the same thing on D&P. Some of your opinions and her's are similar. As I said they would love some of your remarks over there. You would be well received. They love BiBi and hate Obama.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> So who then is good and who is evil in your mind and why?


Cheeky Blighter
Nice to see and hear you. Thank you for asking that, I would like to get an answer to that as well.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Cheeky Blighter
> Nice to see and hear you. Thank you for asking that, I would like to get an answer to that as well.


I am not getting an answer Huck just a reply that danced around the question. Perhaps there isn't one?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> We are more than capable and that is my worry always. Obama has done what? Are you serious? I do not live in the past, I try to learn from it and adjust to the time I live in. Obama also has not started any Wars but ended them as gently as possible for which I am so thankful and I guess for which you fault him. So sad. Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld enjoyed War and went into it not to destroy a country but to keep it intact as much as possible since they wanted to take possession of the oil. I guess you would underwrite going to War and destroy a whole Nation or even more than one just to claim victory. I get the feeling that in times past there were many folks like you and therefore the bloody religious Wars. You seem to reach for the Sword whereas I prefer an Olive Branch.


It always surprises me that people believe obama when he says he wants to end the wars. What he SAYS doesn't count. It's what he DOES that counts. We've had more war under obama than any other president. Under obama, we've conducted war upon SEVEN different countries. So, I don't believe what he says, I believe what he does.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/23/politics/countries-obama-bombed/

I want the wars to end! Those in government do not. They make money off of war. They are beholden to those who make money off of war. Our government creates its own enemies and then goes to war with them. Nothing is, as it seems. It's always the innocents who die in the greatest numbers.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I don't consider disagreement as animosity either but you are making remarks to many that are very leading and to some sound very condescending. I would like to know who gave you all the answers? You only give opinions and one bible quote. Your comments have no authenticity that you can back up and are purely your opinion. KPG does the same thing on D&P. Some of your opinions and her's are similar. As I said they would love some of your remarks over there. You would be well received. They love BiBi and hate Obama.


Cheeky Blighter
you see, some "literature" is very vague and sends individuals into territories that weakens their spirit and plays with their psyche.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> ALL of us, who are being deceived by those who rule the world. This includes the Jews, Christians, Muslims, Protestants and Catholics. The power brokers of the world are playing a grand game of chess, and we are the pawns.
> 
> Why do you think I'm trying to incite animosity because I present a different view? I listen to everyone's opinion. I agree or disagree. I don't consider disagreement as animosity. And I'm not here to have my opinions be " well received". If you only listen to people with whom you agree, you will never hear anything new. I definitely would not be "well received" on D&P. KBG hates me.


Who are those who rule the world then? How are you privy to this information? Wouldn't you share this with us as it sounds like we are in great danger. I thought we were friends with similar political beliefs but perhaps I was wrong. I get my information from a great variety of sources and am well informed and if you have some vital information I would sincerely appreciate hearing it. We may have more in common than you think but then again perhaps not.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It always surprises me that people believe obama when he says he wants to end the wars. What he SAYS doesn't count. It's what he DOES that counts. We've had more war under obama than any other president. Under obama, we've conducted war upon SEVEN different countries. So, I don't believe what he says, I believe what he does.
> http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/23/politics/countries-obama-bombed/
> 
> I want the wars to end! Those in government do not. They make money off of war. They are beholden to those who make money off of war. Our government creates its own enemies and then goes to war with them. Nothing is, as it seems. It's always the innocents who die in the greatest numbers.


Knitter from Nebraska
please, hide this crap from anyone sane near you or they will have to committed. Holy sxxx you are losing it big time.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Netanyahu is not my PM.
> 
> I am tired of the topic. We are going around in circles. It is fine to disagree; I just hate to hear from some all the old anti-semitic libels.
> 
> Let us move on, please.


How can we move on when you use a term such as, "anti-semitic libels"? I hope you're not referring to me because we disagree on many things. I don't think any of us is antisemitic. We're disagreeing on politics, not religion or race. Please say that you don't think any of us is antisemitic.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It always surprises me that people believe obama when he says he wants to end the wars. What he SAYS doesn't count. It's what he DOES that counts. We've had more war under obama than any other president. Under obama, we've conducted war upon SEVEN different countries. So, I don't believe what he says, I believe what he does.
> http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/23/politics/countries-obama-bombed/
> 
> I want the wars to end! Those in government do not. They make money off of war. They are beholden to those who make money off of war. Our government creates its own enemies and then goes to war with them. Nothing is, as it seems. It's always the innocents who die in the greatest numbers.


So what would you have him do differently? Are you thinking like the right that Obama is the dictator and he alone makes every decision without the advice and consent of others in the Congress and the military? You sound just like KPG.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It always surprises me that people believe obama when he says he wants to end the wars. What he SAYS doesn't count. It's what he DOES that counts. We've had more war under obama than any other president. Under obama, we've conducted war upon SEVEN different countries. So, I don't believe what he says, I believe what he does.
> http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/23/politics/countries-obama-bombed/
> 
> I want the wars to end! Those in government do not. They make money off of war. They are beholden to those who make money off of war. Our government creates its own enemies and then goes to war with them. Nothing is, as it seems. It's always the innocents who die in the greatest numbers.


There were no declared wars under the Obama presidency to this date. 
We may have dropped a few bombs and sent in a few drones to keep some terrorists in check, but no war has been declared by the US upon another country by this president. He inherited 3 wars. Iraq, Afghanistan, and the war on terror which will be ongoing for many decades to come.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Can I change the topic for a second? I am tired of sounding mean.
> 
> I just finished knitting a shawl made of thick chenille. I have to sew on the patch pockets but I do not know what stitch to use. Please give me a name of a stitch and I will youtube it. Do I use the chenille?
> 
> Thanks.


I would use the same yarn and use an overcast stitch.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> you are in your dark period once again. Try to snap out of it and you feel much better.


I find this insulting. But go ahead, if it makes you feel better.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> There were no declared wars under the Obama presidency to this date.
> We may have dropped a few bombs and sent in a few drones to keep some people in check, but no war has been declared by the US upon another country by this president.


Thanks for this clarification. I don't think any explanations will come from the original source as she has now changed the subject. Perhaps the kitchen has become a bit heated. :-D


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Those who lie, cheat and steal, to hold power and to rule over others are evil. The unknowing innocent are the good.


Exactly who and how do you pick the difference in the people who are good and those who are evil. Pretty big job- I wouldn't want to spend my life looking for the evil people among the good people, or are All government employees or those elected evil, no matter what? How do you know who is who, and why do you feel that is the case. I have asked you this question before, but somehow I have never received an answer that makes any sense to me. I believe there are good and evil people, but I don't say that the 'Government' is evil as that is a group of individuals, some good some not so good and some who are bad. You make statements that you feel are absolute, when how can they be absolute?? Howdo you know? same old question. You don't say I think this is the case, you say you know that is the case and I wonder how that can be.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I find this insulting. But go ahead, if it makes you feel better.


It is because you don't explain how you know it to be true that the 'Government' is evil as an example.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Name names please. You have very specific people in mind and I would like to know who they are. Are you innocent and good and those who disagree with you the evil ones? Pretty simplistic don't you think?


Name names? Seriously?!? You want me to list everyone who exploits and deceives the common man? Presidents, prime ministers, dictators, nobles, royals, politicians, corporate titans? Get real! I have NEVER suggested that anyone who disagrees with me is evil. Our opinions are based upon our experiences and things we've heard and read. They're as varied as we are. WE are not the enemy! WE are not the evil! We are the deceived.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Exactly who and how do you pick the difference in the people who are good and those who are evil. Pretty big job- I wouldn't want to spend my life looking for the evil people among the good people, or are All government employees or those elected evil, no matter what? How do you know who is who, and why do you feel that is the case. I have asked you this question before, but somehow I have never received an answer that makes any sense to me. I believe there are good and evil people, but I don't say that the 'Government' is evil as that is a group of individuals, some good some not so good and some who are bad. You make statements that you feel are absolute, when how can they be absolute?? Howdo you know? same old question. You don't say I think this is the case, you say you know that is the case and I wonder how that can be.


I feel the same way Shirley. I am getting no answers just generalities. We should not put people in huge groups of good vs evil but be able to distinguish individual people and what their motives and acts are. I would not like to be judged as the member of a herd. If Knitter cannot or will not give answers to legitimate questions I will not consider her as a source of any kind of reliable information just ill informed opinions.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> So what would you have him do differently? Are you thinking like the right that Obama is the dictator and he alone makes every decision without the advice and consent of others in the Congress and the military? You sound just like KPG.


Interesting -- I must be out of the loop as I was under the impression that he has not declared war on anyone and in fact has ended two wars. He is trying to avoid another one and has made it clear he is trying but not necessarily expecting it to work. How many other Presidents at least try? Correct me if I am wrong. Maybe it is a geriatric moment .


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I don't consider disagreement as animosity either but you are making remarks to many that are very leading and to some sound very condescending. I would like to know who gave you all the answers? You only give opinions and one bible quote. Your comments have no authenticity that you can back up and are purely your opinion. KPG does the same thing on D&P. Some of your opinions and her's are similar. As I said they would love some of your remarks over there. You would be well received. They love BiBi and hate Obama.


Who said that I have all the answers? Over and over, I say IMO. That means, in my opinion. Why are my opinions condescending and yours are not? When I agree with your comments, I say so. When I disagree, I say so. I do not attack you on a personal level. I do not read things into what you say. Why can't you do the same? Agree or disagree. So what?


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Who are those who rule the world then? How are you privy to this information? Wouldn't you share this with us as it sounds like we are in great danger. I thought we were friends with similar political beliefs but perhaps I was wrong. I get my information from a great variety of sources and am well informed and if you have some vital information I would sincerely appreciate hearing it. We may have more in common than you think but then again perhaps not.


Cheeky Blighter
I am so anxious to have her sources revealed.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I am not getting an answer Huck just a reply that danced around the question. Perhaps there isn't one?


Dancing is what I'm doing when I'm trying to respond to attack after attack. Sorry if I can't respond fast enough for you.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Name names? Seriously?!? You want me to list everyone who exploits and deceives the common man? Presidents, prime ministers, dictators, nobles, royals, politicians, corporate titans? Get real! I have NEVER suggested that anyone who disagrees with me is evil. Our opinions are based upon our experiences and things we've heard and read. They're as varied as we are. WE are not the enemy! WE are not the evil! We are the deceived.


When did you start believing this? Anyone who is in a position of authority is evil and the ordinary person is always good? Seriously? Think about what you are saying. I could make lists of good and bad from your only two categories of humans. Pretty simplistic don't you think?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> please, hide this crap from anyone sane near you or they will have to committed. Holy sxxx you are losing it big time.


For crying out loud! It's CNN. Do you like Mother Jones? Are they crazy as well?
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/secret-us-military-operation-africa-new-normal


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Who said that I have all the answers? Over and over, I say IMO. That means, in my opinion. Why are my opinions condescending and yours are not? When I agree with your comments, I say so. When I disagree, I say so. I do not attack you on a personal level. I do not read things into what you say. Why can't you do the same? Agree or disagree. So what?


I have responded to you respectfully and not spoken down to you.
If you feel put upon by many perhaps you should ask yourself why.
Maybe you should post comments you can support and other posters won't have to ask you to explain yourself and you can have a meaningful discussion. That's all I was looking for.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Who said that I have all the answers? Over and over, I say IMO. That means, in my opinion. Why are my opinions condescending and yours are not? When I agree with your comments, I say so. When I disagree, I say so. I do not attack you on a personal level. I do not read things into what you say. Why can't you do the same? Agree or disagree. So what?


OKAY - what causes you to have such opinions about your government if as they are your opinions as you state abnove. Maybe I have asked the question incorrectly.

I don't read things into what you say but you say them as facts without proof while you then back down and say that you don't necessarily believe what you say it is your opinion.

We have gone over this so many times and we have asked you WHAT makes you say it is your opinion - Why??? . Then you say that you don't necessarily believe the things you say, when you say them over and over. Are you saying that you Don't believe that the Government is conspiring agains the Americans? Do you mean just the Obama Government who you have absolutely no respect for nor have you ever said a kind word about him. No one is always wrong. Once in awhile even he can be right but not from what you or other people who dislike and sometimes admittedly hate him will ever admit.

Any way, once again we are at the same deadlock we always reach. I ask why you state the things as fact (which you do) and how do you know these things, and then you say you don't necessarily believe them. Then if someone asks you what you do believe you take offense and imply that we are picking on you.

Well, it has been a great evening. Feelings have been misunderstood, people have accused others of insulting them and think things that in some cases, they know are not true. One implying that I don't care about Israel which is known to be untrue. I don't remember ever feeling this way on this thread and it is a shame. Opinions are strong and so they should be but accusations that people think things that are not true are hurtful. Just as the things implied are hurtful to those who believe we mean hurt for any of you.

This is a place where discussion is part of our belief system, rather than all be boxed up with a pretty ribbon and absolutely no naysayers nor differences of opinion. Suddenly it has become hurtful. Personally I have been so proud of this group as we discuss, and try to meet middle ground and try to understand each other but it has changed since the Speech yesterday. Implications are being made without any real reason. I know that being a Jew in this day and age is difficult, but I believe all of us are friends here, not matter our religion or lack of religion. Suddenly we are divided and that is a darned shame and not necessary. None of us want in any way to insult anyone else. We try to understand different opinions and sometimes we convince each other and sometimes we don't. As in the case with Neb and I. We don't agree but that doesn't mean as she sometimes thinks that I am out to hurt her or embarrass her or even disagree with her. We are adults and try to understand where the other person is coming from, and why someone doesn't agree with us. Sad indeed.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Interesting -- I must be out of the loop as I was under the impression that he has not declared war on anyone and in fact has ended two wars. He is trying to avoid another one and has made it clear he is trying but not necessarily expecting it to work. How many other Presidents at least try? Correct me if I am wrong. Maybe it is a geriatric moment .


Shirley you are correct that Obama has not started any wars but he has been involved in military actions some that began before his Presidency. I was just clarifying that even though he is President he must rely on Congress and the Military for advice on how to deal with these situations. He doesn't operate as a dictator and never has.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> There were no declared wars under the Obama presidency to this date.
> We may have dropped a few bombs and sent in a few drones to keep some terrorists in check, but no war has been declared by the US upon another country by this president. He inherited 3 wars. Iraq, Afghanistan, and the war on terror which will be ongoing for many decades to come.


Oh. So if war is not declared, it is not war? "A few bombs" and a " few drones"? I wonder if that made a difference to the innocents on the ground, who were killed and their loved ones? I bet they thought there was a war going on.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Do not plan to fall overboard. I enjoy reading about your travel dreams. Would love to go to Australia but only in a time capsule. I don't think I would have the patience to fly for so many hours.


20 hours (with stop over) compared to months on a ship? You could tolerate the former!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Thanks for this clarification. I don't think any explanations will come from the original source as she has now changed the subject. Perhaps the kitchen has become a bit heated. :-D


The source was CNN. I posted a link.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, the results of the talks are irrelevant. Iran cannot be trusted to uphold any agreement. Iran is the enemy of the US and Israel. Remember, for decades Iran has vowed to destroy the great satan (the US) and the little satan (Israel). IMO, a deal made with them, isn't worth the paper it's written on. Their koran teaches them to lie, cheat and steal from their enemies.


Yet Iran was more than happy to be the recipient of arms by both the US and Israel back in the 80's. I think they were all great mates back then.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I have.
> Hosea 4:6: "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."


Knitter from Nebraska
Psalm 23

Oh the contradictions in the good Book.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Yet Iran was more than happy to be the recipient of arms by both the US and Israel back in the 80's.  I think they were all great mates back then.


Wombatnomore
no kidding. As the World turns.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh. So if war is not declared, it is not war? "A few bombs" and a " few drones"? I wonder if that made a difference to the innocents on the ground, who were killed and their loved ones? I bet they thought there was a war going on.


Knitter from Nebraska
you want ISIS taken out or take over? Take your pick.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Exactly who and how do you pick the difference in the people who are good and those who are evil. Pretty big job- I wouldn't want to spend my life looking for the evil people among the good people, or are All government employees or those elected evil, no matter what? How do you know who is who, and why do you feel that is the case. I have asked you this question before, but somehow I have never received an answer that makes any sense to me. I believe there are good and evil people, but I don't say that the 'Government' is evil as that is a group of individuals, some good some not so good and some who are bad. You make statements that you feel are absolute, when how can they be absolute?? Howdo you know? same old question. You don't say I think this is the case, you say you know that is the case and I wonder how that can be.


It's not up to me to decide who's evil and who's not. I have opinions. In order for you to understand how I formed my opinions, you'd have to read everything that I've read.

Why do you keep accusing me of making absolute statements, when I state my opinion? How do you know, what you know? You can no more answer that question than I can. How would you feel if I said the same things to you? If I asked you to prove EVERY statement or opinion that you share? Your truths and your opinions are based upon what you've read and heard and experienced. I accept that and I don't ask you to prove it, every week. If you really wanted to know why or how I think what I think, you'd read the articles I link to.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Shirley you are correct that Obama has not started any wars but he has been involved in military actions some that began before his Presidency. I was just clarifying that even though he is President he must rely on Congress and the Military for advice on how to deal with these situations. He doesn't operate as a dictator and never has.


Cheeky Blighter
when you are handed War, you have to deal with it and President Obama dealt with it in a remarkable way, he ended one and is in the process of ending another. Hopefully he won't have to deal with a new one as the GOP is biting their nails to start one again. Birds of a Feather - get the drift?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Shirley you are correct that Obama has not started any wars but he has been involved in military actions some that began before his Presidency. I was just clarifying that even though he is President he must rely on Congress and the Military for advice on how to deal with these situations. He doesn't operate as a dictator and never has.


Thanks Cheeky, I agree l00% with you. He has not started 7 wars,He couldn't start a war on his own as you point out. He might have been drawn into situations but he is not a warmonger.Unless I have misunderstood many Republicans have wanted him to get involved when he has refused to do so. I am not sure if that is correct, if not so be . No one will convince me that he ever was or ever will be hoping for another war. I think that if anything he tries too hard to 
find agreement and hasn't stood a chance of the right ever agreeing with anything he ever has done or will do.

Anyway, I am weary and am going to watch my nephew play in the Canadian Curling Bier cup. talk to you all later.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It's not up to me to decide who's evil and who's not. I have opinions. In order for you to understand how I formed my opinions, you'd have to read everything that I've read.
> 
> Why do you keep accusing me of making absolute statements, when I state my opinion? How do you know, what you know? You can no more answer that question than I can. How would you feel if I said the same things to you? If I asked you to prove EVERY statement or opinion that you share? Your truths and your opinions are based upon what you've read and heard and experienced. I accept that and I don't ask you to prove it, every week. If you really wanted to know why or how I think what I think, you'd read the articles I link to.


I have read many of your articles Neb and that is the truth, I just don't agree - none of them have helped me understand why you feel the way you do. I feel the way I do in a lot of cases as I watched from the beginning. Others through reading, I am a liberal you are a middle of the road Conservative, I just haven't heard anyone else except one other person, who seems to believe that the Government means to take over and give up on Democracy.

I do think that those who have an opinion often look for things that agree with that opinion. I just don't know why you feel your Government is out to hurt the American People and turn away from Democracy. I am sorry , I don't intend to cause you grief. I just don't get it and I guess that is my fault. Maybe you don't know why you feel that way.

I have changed my opinion about a lot of things since I joined this group, because I didn't know nearly as much as I thought I knew. This group is very smart and very willing to discuss what they believe. We don't always agree. . Maybe I am the one with the problem. I have been convinced I was wrong by quite a few things, because of the discussions here. I am glad that I can change my mind by listening and trying to understand and to admit I am wrong. I have always been an admirer of Netanyatu until I read some of the posts here. I also drew my own conclusions as to why and what has happened. soo, I certainly don't think I know everything. the more I am here the less I find I know. I do know I like to know the reasons for things.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I don't consider disagreement as animosity either but you are making remarks to many that are very leading and to some sound very condescending. I would like to know who gave you all the answers? You only give opinions and one bible quote. Your comments have no authenticity that you can back up and are purely your opinion. KPG does the same thing on D&P. Some of your opinions and her's are similar. As I said they would love some of your remarks over there. You would be well received. They love BiBi and hate Obama.


Are we still welcome here if we are ambivalent about both men?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> How can we move on when you use a term such as, "anti-semitic libels"? I hope you're not referring to me because we disagree on many things. I don't think any of us is antisemitic. We're disagreeing on politics, not religion or race. Please say that you don't think any of us is antisemitic.


I only think the purist of thoughts about all my Comrades on my favorite threads.

Actually. I was following "Lumber Liquidators" thread ( I am embarrassed to admit that) which seemed like a very neutral, safe and informative thread. Then the Netanyahu speech began and it turned to that. One enraged poster said the Israelis want the money and blood of our young men and women. That put me in a real bad frame of mind. From there it was a few more comments, etc. But this is all really nothing. I am waiting for Easter when you get the "He Has Risen" thread. OOOOOOO. You really see who likes you and who doesn't then.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Cheeky Blighter
> when you are handed War, you have to deal with it and President Obama dealt with it in a remarkable way, he ended one and is in the process of ending another. Hopefully he won't have to deal with a new one as the GOP is biting their nails to start one again. Birds of a Feather - get the drift?


Another war has already started and there is no end in sight - ISIS


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I only think the purist of thoughts about all my Comrades on my favorite threads.
> 
> Actually. I was following "Lumber Liquidators" thread ( I am embarrassed to admit that) which seemed like a very neutral, safe and informative thread. Then the Netanyahu speech began and it turned to that. One enraged poster said the Israelis want the money and blood of our young men and women. That put me in a real bad frame of mind. From there it was a few more comments, etc. But this is all really nothing. I am waiting for Easter when you get the "He Has Risen" thread. OOOOOOO. You really see then who likes you and who doesn't then.


Have you sorted the pockets on the shawl? What stitch did you use? It's a beautiful shawl.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> Are we still welcome here if we are ambivalent about both men?


SQM
of course but let fairness prevail - always.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Name names? Seriously?!? You want me to list everyone who exploits and deceives the common man? Presidents, prime ministers, dictators, nobles, royals, politicians, corporate titans? Get real! I have NEVER suggested that anyone who disagrees with me is evil. Our opinions are based upon our experiences and things we've heard and read. They're as varied as we are. WE are not the enemy! WE are not the evil! We are the deceived.


So Marxist! Yes!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> Cheeky Blighter
> when you are handed War, you have to deal with it and President Obama dealt with it in a remarkable way, he ended one and is in the process of ending another. Hopefully he won't have to deal with a new one as the GOP is biting their nails to start one again. Birds of a Feather - get the drift?


Don't forget Gitmo, Huckle. Where has Our Guy been for that? Maybe now that we have visitation rights to Cuba, Gitmo will be part of the tour.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Happy Purim everyone!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Another war has already started and there is no end in sight - ISIS


Hi Wombat! I think that goes in with the war on terror. I believe that it is more of a global issue and not started by our president.

How are things in OZ?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Hi Wombat! I think that goes in with the war on terror. I believe that it is more of a global issue and not started by our president.
> 
> How are things in OZ?


Sorry Brat, I didn't mean to imply President Obama had started the war on terror. He most certainly didn't. Wasn't thinking about the President when I wrote that.

Things are good in OZ - well, excepting that we have a PM who is vacillating between providing us with 'good' government and 'bad' government and two Australian men about to be executed by firing squad in Indonesia (yes, the Indonesians are simply following their rule of war but in doing so, are sticking it to the Australian Government who have been trying desperately to have their sentences commuted to life in prison). The Indonesians are dragging the process on and on which saddens me because the men have been held hostage to their 'planned' demise for weeks now.

Doesn't sound that positive does it? :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think it's a mistake to only see views from your own perspective. It's common, but wrong. We all do it from time to time.




SQM said:


> Love when you write such uninformed emails.
> 
> Israel is pretty much split on the issue of "The Talk". Just as they are split about re-electing Netanyahu.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

How about river cruises? Have fun. You've been limited for a very long time.



MaidInBedlam said:


> I just wrote a long reply and accidentally sent it into the void. I've checked out the link you gave along with many other websites about passenger travel on cargo ships. The cost per day is around $100 compared to $300-$400 per day for a real cruise with all the frills. The trips get expensive because the cargo ships take longer to get wherever they're going. There is one trip I'd like to take from Los Angeles to Auckland, Melbourne, Sydney, Tauranga, Oakland, and back to Los Angeles.
> 
> All the sites I've looked at recommend taking a short trip on a cargo ship before getting committed to taking a long one. Great advice! Who wants to get stuck with a 70 day trip that's awful? I also have to have no responsibilities at home. There are a lot of factors to be considered and my list of them gets longer and longer. Maybe I'm only day-dreaming, which doesn't cost anything but is highly entertaining. I'm not even going to tell you about all the train trips I want to take...  :thumbup:


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Do not plan to fall overboard. I enjoy reading about your travel dreams. Would love to go to Australia but only in a time capsule. I don't think I would have the patience to fly for so many hours.


Well, I must have some degree of patience if I'm day-dreaming about spending 10 weeks on a cargo ship taking a round trip to New Zealand and Australia. I don't want to get on an airplane ever again. It's not that I'm afraid to fly. I'm at a point where the trip is as interesting as the destination. :thumbup:


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Quick note -- Fact check:
My husband and I, neither of whom are Muslim, have both read the Koran in its entirety and have not only found nothing in there advocating the destruction of Jews or Christians or Judaism or Christianity, but the Koran particularly honors both Jesus and Moses as prophets, and the holy writings of Judaism and Christianity as books to be respected. The Koran considers all of the adherents of these religions to be "peoples of the Book."


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)




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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Camacho said:


> Quick note -- Fact check:
> My husband and I, neither of whom are Muslim, have both read the Koran in its entirety and have not only found nothing in there advocating the destruction of Jews or Christians or Judaism or Christianity, but the Koran particularly honors both Jesus and Moses as prophets, and the holy writings of Judaism and Christianity as books to be respected. The Koran considers all of the adherents of these religions to be "peoples of the Book."


Thanks for this information Camacho --I think if more people made the effort to find out the truth it would sure be a better world. I appreciate your information. I have two muslim friends both were neighbors and they used to tell me about the Koran and that so much has been misrepresented.

how is your new house project? Have they started building.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Camacho said:


> Quick note -- Fact check:
> My husband and I, neither of whom are Muslim, have both read the Koran in its entirety and have not only found nothing in there advocating the destruction of Jews or Christians or Judaism or Christianity, but the Koran particularly honors both Jesus and Moses as prophets, and the holy writings of Judaism and Christianity as books to be respected. The Koran considers all of the adherents of these religions to be "peoples of the Book."


Camacho
Thank you. We neither found instructions for destruction of any Religion or Nation in the Koran.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It's not up to me to decide who's evil and who's not. I have opinions. In order for you to understand how I formed my opinions, you'd have to read everything that I've read.
> 
> Why do you keep accusing me of making absolute statements, when I state my opinion? How do you know, what you know? You can no more answer that question than I can. How would you feel if I said the same things to you? If I asked you to prove EVERY statement or opinion that you share? Your truths and your opinions are based upon what you've read and heard and experienced. I accept that and I don't ask you to prove it, every week. If you really wanted to know why or how I think what I think, you'd read the articles I link to.


Knitter from Nebraska
you certainly depict President Obama as evil. Read just a few pages back.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)




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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> No American President has declared war on any country and sought and gotten the approval of Congress. This means that all of our military action anywhere on earth are not legal wars. For various reasons and with varying approval of Congress this country has gotten into quite a few illegal wars.


What about the World Wars? Were they approved? Was Viet Nam approved? Certainly this latest trend toward war has started without congressional approval. But I thought that was a newish stunt.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM
did you sew on the pocket?


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> What about the World Wars? Were they approved? Was Viet Nam approved? Certainly this latest trend toward war has started without congressional approval. But I thought that was a newish stunt.


The last time the US legally declared war on any country(s) was in 1941 when FDR did so in the wake of Pearl Harbor. The so-called Korean war was often called a police action to divert criticism that it wasn't a properly declared war. Remember all the protest against our presence in Vietnam? The protests over the Vietnam "War" often referred to the fact that we hadn't bothered to declare war on North Vietnam.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> SQM
> did you sew on the pocket?


Noeth, replied the Sloth. But I am in all day(big snow day) and I will make that one of my to-dos. Wombat who is an amazing hand stitcher recommended doing a back stitch with one of the plies from the chenille. I got a youtube on how to do it and it seems simple even for me. Thanks for asking Huckle.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> The last time the US legally declared war on any country(s) was in 1941 when FDR did so in the wake of Pearl Harbor. The so-called Korean war was often called a police action to divert criticism that it wasn't a properly declared war. Remember all the protest against our presence in Vietnam? The protests over the Vietnam "War" often referred to the fact that we hadn't bothered to declare war on North Vietnam.


My Maid has a better memory than I do. America is tres belligerent.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

damemary said:


> How about river cruises? Have fun. You've been limited for a very long time.


Viking River Cruises keeps sending me all sorts of advertising and making me drool. The catch is that cruises usually cost about $300-$400 a day while the cargo ships charge around $100 a day. I want length as well as wonderful sights if I can manage to afford any kind of cruising. Dreaming is free, and we don't get to touch what we've saved for retirement.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Camacho said:


> Quick note -- Fact check:
> My husband and I, neither of whom are Muslim, have both read the Koran in its entirety and have not only found nothing in there advocating the destruction of Jews or Christians or Judaism or Christianity, but the Koran particularly honors both Jesus and Moses as prophets, and the holy writings of Judaism and Christianity as books to be respected. The Koran considers all of the adherents of these religions to be "peoples of the Book."


Hi, Camacho. You and your husband must have infinite patience to do all that reading. What you say completely goes against postings by one person on D&P who claims to have read the Koran and lists about a hundred passages that advocate violence to nonbelievers. Gee, whom should I believe, you and your husband, who _actually_ bothered to read the book, or that woman, who copies everything from other websites, without even giving those sites the credit?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Noeth, replied the Sloth. But I am in all day(big snow day) and I will make that one of my to-dos. Wombat who is an amazing hand stitcher recommended doing a back stitch with one of the plies from the chenille. I got a youtube on how to do it and it seems simple even for me. Thanks for asking Huckle.


Just watching the news re the plane that ran off the runway at LGA! No one injured thankfully. The snow is relentless. You stay snug indoors!

I think quilting thread would be better. Try the chenille and let us know what you think.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It always surprises me that people believe obama when he says he wants to end the wars". What he SAYS doesn't count. It's what he DOES that counts" We've had more war under obama than any other president. Under obama, we've conducted war upon SEVEN different countries. So, I don't believe what he says, I believe what he does. -
> http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/23/politics/countries-obama-bombed/
> 
> I want the wars to end! Those in government do not. They make money off of war. They are beholden to those who make money off of war. Our government creates its own enemies and then goes to war with them. Nothing is, as it seems. It's always the innocents who die in the greatest numbers.


You blame Obama for not ending any wars which is not the case.

You Also you accuse your own Government of "deliberately creating its own enemies so that it can declare o war with them" and imply Obama wants that. What!! has it occurred to you and others that the constant statements like that which are not proven are read around the world and the dissension caused by statements like that cause your country great harm?
You seem to forget that roadblocks have been put in his way by the Right for EVERYTHING he has tried to do, yet the right say he is responsible for every bad thing that is happening in the world.He has received absolutely no support from the Republicans, it is personal and they thrive on insulting him..

You stated that you wouldn't watch his State of the Union Address as you can't stand him -so who has the closed mind? Thinking Americans would want to know what his hopes for America are. You are not even willing to listen to any of his speeches, but imply he is useless.

Boehner and Netanyaho both stated that he is their enemy. So they do as much as they can to make his job even more difficult. The sad thing is that he would NEVER use those tactics on Israel or any other country- nor would he insult the leader of Israel.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> you certainly depict President Obama as evil. Read just a few pages back.


It's just her opinion, based on a visceral feeling she had when she saw him. But she did say something like "the man is evil." Not "I believe" or "I opine," but simply "is evil."

Did I get that right, KFN?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Happy Purim everyone!


Thank you. We've already begun celebrating. The custom is to send a lot of food to friends and to drink so much that you can't distinguish between good and evil. Our friends have all been fed; we're still working on the next part.

This is my favorite holiday of all.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> You blame Obama for not ending any wars which is not the case.
> 
> You Also you accuse your own Government of "deliberately creating its own enemies so that it can declare o war with them" and imply Obama wants that. What!! has it occurred to you and others that the constant statements like that which are not proven are read around the world and the dissension caused by statements like that cause your country great harm?
> You seem to forget that roadblocks have been put in his way by the Right for EVERYTHING he has tried to do, yet the right say he is responsible for every bad thing that is happening in the world.He has received absolutely no support from the Republicans, it is personal and they thrive on insulting him..
> ...


I agree with all but your last paragraph. I think he already insulted the leader of Israel - in fact, Jews everywhere - by ignoring the gathering after the Charlie Hebdo and kosher supermarket murders.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you. We've already begun celebrating. The custom is to send a lot of food to friends and to drink so much that you can't distinguish between good and evil. Our friends have all been fed; we're still working on the next part.
> 
> This is my favorite holiday of all.


Poor Purl
Most enjoyable time here. Food for friends has been delivered and the fluids are at proper temperatures. 
Happy Purim.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Just watching the news re the plane that ran off the runway at LGA! No one injured thankfully. The snow is relentless. You stay snug indoors!
> 
> I think quilting thread would be better. Try the chenille and let us know what you think.


Quilting thread? I don't have any and have no idea where to get it. All the 7th Ave. notion stores shut down. I will try the chenille. You get my local news faster than I do. I will be in sewing pockets. Blah.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> you certainly depict President Obama as evil. Read just a few pages back.


You seem to have selective "listening" or reading. Please pay more attention. My posts contain the following words and phrases:
"The way I see it"
"I believe"
"I strongly believe"
"I think"
"IMO" which stands for "in my opinion"
"I have no idea but"
"Who said I have all the answers"
"I wonder"

As I said, it's not up to me to decide but I AM allowed to have an opinion! Even if it doesn't agree with yours.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Camacho said:


> Quick note -- Fact check:
> My husband and I, neither of whom are Muslim, have both read the Koran in its entirety and have not only found nothing in there advocating the destruction of Jews or Christians or Judaism or Christianity, but the Koran particularly honors both Jesus and Moses as prophets, and the holy writings of Judaism and Christianity as books to be respected. The Koran considers all of the adherents of these religions to be "peoples of the Book."


The koran is very clear in how to deal with " unbelievers". I think that would include Jews and Christians.

The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:193). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam (prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars). This popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack. Had they been, then there would have been no waiting period (earlier verses make it a duty for Muslims to fight in self-defense, even during the sacred months). The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat. Once the Muslims had power, they violently evicted those unbelievers who would not convert.

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people." Humiliating and hurting non-believers not only has the blessing of Allah, but it is ordered as a means of carrying out his punishment and even "healing" the hearts of Muslims.

Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The Arabic word interpreted as "striving" in this verse is the same root as "Jihad". The context is obviously holy war.

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. According to this verse, they are to be violently subjugated, with the sole justification being their religious status. Verse 9:33 tells Muslims that Allah has charted them to make Islam "superior over all religions." This chapter was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.

Quran (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).

Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that unbelievers are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.

Quran (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."

Quran (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme." How does the Quran define a true believer?

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Note that the crime is moral transgression, and the punishment is "utter destruction." (Before ordering the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden first issued Americans an invitation to Islam).

There's more, but I think everybody can get the idea.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Camacho
> Thank you. We neither found instructions for destruction of any Religion or Nation in the Koran.


Only the "unbelievers". That would add up to a lot.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

SQM said:


> Quilting thread? I don't have any and have no idea where to get it. All the 7th Ave. notion stores shut down. I will try the chenille. You get my local news faster than I do. I will be in sewing pockets. Blah.


Here is the wrap. I slipped a napkin in the pocket so you can see it. Thanks to the Great Wombat for suggesting the back stitch. I used the chenille and it is so nappy that it does not show. Of course I will never wear this since I no longer like it. The background mess is the books and papers from my textbook writing and today's snow.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you. We've already begun celebrating. The custom is to send a lot of food to friends and to drink so much that you can't distinguish between good and evil. Our friends have all been fed; we're still working on the next part.
> 
> This is my favorite holiday of all.


I'm going to a celebration tonight with Jewish friends whom I usually join for Shabbat. Apparently there will be "much imbibing" going on according to my friend Joseph who becomes tipsy at the mere whiff of champagne! It's going to be an interesting evening. :XD:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Here is the wrap. I slipped a napkin in the pocket so you can see it. Thanks to the Great Wombat for suggesting the back stitch. I used the chenille and it is so nappy that it does not show. Of course I will never wear this since I no longer like it. The background mess is the books and papers from my textbook writing and today's snow.


Well I think it's excellent! Good work! I love chenille, it's got a groovy look to it.

It would be so easy to wear at home or out and about on the cool spring days ahead. I can relate to not liking a garment when it's finished because of the time it takes to knit the thing. It's like being stuck with an individual who's getting on one's goat!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you. We've already begun celebrating. The custom is to send a lot of food to friends and to drink so much that you can't distinguish between good and evil. Our friends have all been fed; we're still working on the next part.
> 
> This is my favorite holiday of all.


I am not sure exactly how I wish you a good holiday, so I will say it that way. I would like to hear more about what is being celebrated. Would you tell us a bit about that Purim(?) holiday? I find it fascinating . I have learned so much from all of the people on this thread.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Well I think it's excellent! Good work! I love chenille, it's got a groovy look to it.
> 
> It would be so easy to wear at home or out and about on the cool spring days ahead. I can relate to not liking a garment when it's finished because of the time it takes to knit the thing. It's like being stuck with an individual who's getting on one's goat!


Ha Ha. You read me right(ly).

Let us know how your Purim party went. So glad you are going.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I agree with all but your last paragraph. I think he already insulted the leader of Israel - in fact, Jews everywhere - by ignoring the gathering after the Charlie Hebdo and kosher supermarket murders.


I stand corrected. I believe he should have attended the Memorials.

I just want to make clear that I am don't agree with some of his policies. However I do think that it was decided before he even ran that they wanted nothing to do with him. I have my own opinion of the reasons. However, when Americans refuses to listen to his State of the Union address and I kow that many on D and P if not all of them refused to as well,because they have convinced themselves that he is evil, something is very wrong in my opinion. He has never been treated fairly by those on the right and way down deep I think every American knows that. That is my opinion and I doubt I will ever change it -


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

SQM said:


> Are we still welcome here if we are ambivalent about both men?


You are free to post wherever you like on the forum. That's entirely up to you.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Poor Purl
> Most enjoyable time here. Food for friends has been delivered and the fluids are at proper temperatures.
> Happy Purim.


Huckleberry, I wish I were with you. Enjoy - Happy Purim.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I'm going to a celebration tonight with Jewish friends whom I usually join for Shabbat. Apparently there will be "much imbibing" going on according to my friend Joseph who becomes tipsy at the mere whiff of champagne! It's going to be an interesting evening. :XD:


Enjoy it! I'm sure Joseph will.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> Here is the wrap. I slipped a napkin in the pocket so you can see it. Thanks to the Great Wombat for suggesting the back stitch. I used the chenille and it is so nappy that it does not show. Of course I will never wear this since I no longer like it. The background mess is the books and papers from my textbook writing and today's snow.


I think the color is beautiful and the wrap should be nice to cuddle up in.

Who made Hamantashen?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I stand corrected. I believe he should have attended the Memorials.
> 
> I just want to make clear that I am don't agree with some of his policies. However I do think that it was decided before he even ran that they wanted nothing to do with him. I have my own opinion of the reasons. However, when Americans refuses to listen to his State of the Union address and I kow that many on D and P if not all of them refused to as well,because they have convinced themselves that he is evil, something is very wrong in my opinion. He has never been treated fairly by those on the right and way down deep I think every American knows that. That is my opinion and I doubt I will ever change it -


That's not only your opinion; I think it's also fact. I've never seen another politician - let alone a sitting President - treated this way.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Ha Ha. You read me right(ly).
> 
> Let us know how your Purim party went. So glad you are going.


Yes, I'm looking forward to it now. I always have a great time with that crowd, they're so funny! And I can't wait to see Joseph a bit under the weather. He starts singing when he's had a few and we all end up singing along with him and his hair brush which he uses for a microphone!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> I think the color is beautiful and the wrap should be nice to cuddle up in.
> 
> Who made Hamantashen?


Thanks.

I was willing you to post.

I was counting on you to post a pic of hamantashen. Nu?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I was willing you to post.
> 
> I was counting on you to post a pic of hamantashen. Nu?


Yum!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I am not sure exactly how I wish you a good holiday, so I will say it that way. I would like to hear more about what is being celebrated. Would you tell us a bit about that Purim(?) holiday? I find it fascinating . I have learned so much from all of the people on this thread.


Happy holiday will do fine. Purim commemorates the events related in the Book of Esther, when the Jews of Persia (present-day Iran; what a coincidence!) were in danger of being destroyed (a repeating theme in Jewish history). Seriously, Wikipedia has a pretty good article, better than what I would write.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purim


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I was willing you to post.
> 
> I was counting on you to post a pic of hamantashen. Nu?


I think we could make it better with chocolate in the middle. And I spelled it wrong. Hamantaschen?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Happy holiday will do fine. Purim commemorates the events related in the Book of Esther, when the Jews of Persia (present-day Iran; what a coincidence!) were in danger of being destroyed (a repeating theme in Jewish history). Seriously, Wikipedia has a pretty good article, better than what I would write.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purim


I read that Esther was also the first Jewish vegan. Everything comes around again, I guess.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> I read that Esther was also the first Jewish vegan. Everything comes around again, I guess.


For an instant, I read "vegan" as "virgin." I could use another drink.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> I think we could make it better with chocolate in the middle. And I spelled it wrong. Hamantaschen?


What did you put in for filling, prunes? Looks pretty tasty!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> For an instant, I read "vegan" as "virgin." I could use another drink.


Moi, aussi.
I had a dental implant yesterday.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> What did you put in for filling, prunes? Looks pretty tasty!


Just a minute, Cheeky. I didn't say I MADE them. Just a picture from someplace. I heard they aren't all that tasty.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> For an instant, I read "vegan" as "virgin." I could use another drink.


Have a drink for me too, Purl. Vegan, virgin it's an easy mistake to make


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Just a minute, Cheeky. I didn't say I MADE them. Just a picture from someplace. I heard they aren't all that tasty.


Well maybe just looking at the picture is better than the actual eating then. If they were your own baking I would know for sure that the eating is much better than any photo.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Well maybe just looking at the picture is better than the actual eating then. If they were your own baking I would know for sure that the eating is much better than any photo.


Thank you. You haven't had any of my baking for a long time. I sent Marie some cookies last week along with other things in a care package. She liked getting a surprise goodie box.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Actually I think Hamantashens are great - especially the ones filled with chocolate or poppy. They are easy to make - use regular dough and cut and folded into that triangular shape. 

Thanks CQ for posting.

Is it okay to start a new project rather than do a WIP?


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Thank you. You haven't had any of my baking for a long time. I sent Marie some cookies last week along with other things in a care package. She liked getting a surprise goodie box.


I will get out my Oreos and milk :lol:


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I just read that someone puts Nutella in the Hamantaschen! Yummy!

Re:WIPs
You are of an age at which you can do as you please without guilt. If you love the excitement of starting a new project, go for it. Or frog a WIP and turn it into another WIP.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> Quilting thread? I don't have any and have no idea where to get it. All the 7th Ave. notion stores shut down. I will try the chenille. You get my local news faster than I do. I will be in sewing pockets. Blah.


SQM
Quilting thread is a heavy sewing thread, also called Dual Duty Plus Quilting Thread. Walmart or Michaels should have it.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Huckleberry, I wish I were with you. Enjoy - Happy Purim.


Poor Purl
would love to have you join us. Back to the company. See you later.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM
I usually finish the edges of Chenille pieces in crochet with regular yarn in the same color or one that complements the chenille color.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> SQM
> I usually finish the edges of Chenille pieces in crochet with regular yarn in the same color or one that complements the chenille color.


I was thinking of that. Today I just hate the item and don't want to do anything more on it. But I have plenty of left-over yarn. Maybe I should look into a crochet project.

What are you working on now or should I reframe that and ask what aren't you doing now?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Moi, aussi.
> I had a dental implant yesterday.


I'll drink to that. I hope the implant has a long, happy life.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Have a drink for me too, Purl. Vegan, virgin it's an easy mistake to make


Which is the mistake, Cheeky, being a vegan or being a virgin?

I think it's time to stop drinking.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> That's not only your opinion; I think it's also fact. I've never seen another politician - let alone a sitting President - treated this way.


I would imagine you agree with me as to why that is happening.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Happy holiday will do fine. Purim commemorates the events related in the Book of Esther, when the Jews of Persia (present-day Iran; what a coincidence!) were in danger of being destroyed (a repeating theme in Jewish history). Seriously, Wikipedia has a pretty good article, better than what I would write.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purim


Thanks I will read it now.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> You blame Obama for not ending any wars which is not the case.
> 
> You Also you accuse your own Government of "deliberately creating its own enemies so that it can declare o war with them" and imply Obama wants that. What!! has it occurred to you and others that the constant statements like that which are not proven are read around the world and the dissension caused by statements like that cause your country great harm?
> You seem to forget that roadblocks have been put in his way by the Right for EVERYTHING he has tried to do, yet the right say he is responsible for every bad thing that is happening in the world.He has received absolutely no support from the Republicans, it is personal and they thrive on insulting him..
> ...


Oh, yeah? What wars has he ended? Not, what wars he's SAID that he's going to end, but what wars has he ended? We've been at war every single day of his presidency. So, I don't believe him!

As to creating our own enemies? Well, guess what? The CIA created Al Qaida to fight the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Isis is an offshoot of al qaida. So is al nusra. Our government created, trained, armed and funded the very people they're fighting today. You say that you want to know why I think what I think. Start with this. Be sure to check out the links which are loaded with info. 
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/09/sleeping-with-the-devil-how-u-s-and-saudi-backing-of-al-qaeda-led-to-911.html

You seem to be implying that nobody should talk about these things because it might make our country look bad. Well, our country has done some pretty bad things and I think those things should be made public, so that they never happen again.

If you read this article, watch the videos, and check out the links for evidence, that will give you some inkling of why I think, like I do. If you choose not to start with this, stop asking me why I think these things.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It's just her opinion, based on a visceral feeling she had when she saw him. But she did say something like "the man is evil." Not "I believe" or "I opine," but simply "is evil."
> 
> Did I get that right, KFN?


I believe that I expressed it as my opinion. If you can show me otherwise, I'll believe you.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you. We've already begun celebrating. The custom is to send a lot of food to friends and to drink so much that you can't distinguish between good and evil. Our friends have all been fed; we're still working on the next part.
> 
> This is my favorite holiday of all.


Happy Purim! 
I didn't want to seem a hypocrite, stopping in the middle of an argument to wish you a happy holiday, but I am glad that you've enjoyed it.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I agree with all but your last paragraph. I think he already insulted the leader of Israel - in fact, Jews everywhere - by ignoring the gathering after the Charlie Hebdo and kosher supermarket murders.


IMO (note the IMO), I don't think he was "ignoring the gathering". I think he was sending a message, a very blatant message.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Here is the wrap. I slipped a napkin in the pocket so you can see it. Thanks to the Great Wombat for suggesting the back stitch. I used the chenille and it is so nappy that it does not show. Of course I will never wear this since I no longer like it. The background mess is the books and papers from my textbook writing and today's snow.


That's really pretty and chenille is so soft and snuggly, you must wear it. How's your textbook coming?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> That's really pretty and chenille is so soft and snuggly, you must wear it. How's your textbook coming?


ha ha. it is already on the closet floor. The textbook is in development so I guess I am thru so I should toss out all those books and notes. I will do so once I get closer to moving. Thanks.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I stand corrected. I believe he should have attended the Memorials.
> 
> I just want to make clear that I am don't agree with some of his policies. However I do think that it was decided before he even ran that they wanted nothing to do with him. I have my own opinion of the reasons. However, when Americans refuses to listen to his State of the Union address and I kow that many on D and P if not all of them refused to as well,because they have convinced themselves that he is evil, something is very wrong in my opinion. He has never been treated fairly by those on the right and way down deep I think every American knows that. That is my opinion and I doubt I will ever change it -


Shirley, you are wrong about my not liking him before he ran. I wanted so badly to like him and did, before I knew anything about him. I even considered voting for him, simply because he's black. I knew that one day, I would have grandchildren who were half black. I wanted so badly that they could live in a country where a black man could and did become president. I was happy for my DIL. I even cross stitched a sampler for her that said:

Rosa sat so Martin could walk.
Martin walked so Obama could run.
Obama ran so our children could fly.

His talk of "hope and change" almost ignited a fire within me. And then he talked of fundamentally changing our country. At that point, I started to find out more.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> ha ha. it is already on the closet floor. The textbook is in development so I guess I am thru so I should toss out all those books and notes. I will do so once I get closer to moving. Thanks.


Don't throw them out! You should keep them.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> That's not only your opinion; I think it's also fact. I've never seen another politician - let alone a sitting President - treated this way.


I'm glad you said, "I think".


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> For an instant, I read "vegan" as "virgin." I could use another drink.


Ahahahahaha!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Have a drink for me too, Purl. Vegan, virgin it's an easy mistake to make


Sure it is.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> What about the World Wars? Were they approved? Was Viet Nam approved? Certainly this latest trend toward war has started without congressional approval. But I thought that was a newish stunt.


War #I and #II were declared . I believe that Viet nam and Korea were passed through Congress but I am not sure. I am too tired to look them up now. The after effects on those who fought in Viet Nam is still affecting many people in the States from what I have seen and heard. Interesting question, I have never thought about the answer to those questions. Shows how much I know.

I just know that Canada Opted out of VietNam and as my sons would have been exactly the right age . That is something I have always agreed with and have been thankful for. I didn't realize that we did actually fight in the Korean war - Pat was part of it after the war ended and was with the United nations peacekeepers and so I just never thought to find out.

Too many wars I hope somehow the situation in the middle east will calm down but I don't see how that will happen.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Shirley, you are wrong about my not liking him before he ran. I wanted so badly to like him and did, before I knew anything about him. I even considered voting for him, simply because he's black. I knew that one day, I would have grandchildren who were half black. I wanted so badly that they could live in a country where a black man could and did become president. I was happy for my DIL. I even cross stitched a sampler for her that said:
> 
> Rosa sat so Martin could walk.
> Martin walked so Obama could run.
> ...


I am sorry that happened. I just feel he never had a chance to really show what he wanted to do. I didn't realize that he was planning on changing your country in a negative way. Please - what were his plans to change the United States so drastically, that you decided you wanted nothing to do with him to the extent that you have no respect for him and believe he can hurt your country. Isn't the division in America causing hurt to your country, and that is put in motion by those on the right who decided before he even first ran that they were going to undermine him and not cooperate with him in any way. I have never felt you were against him because of his race. I however believe that that is the main thing that is happening in the US. especially in the deep south and definitely in the Born again Christians and the Religious right.

Maybe I have a geriatric memory, but I honestly don't remember any discussion or accusation that he was planning bad things for America,or wanted to Change the Government and other things you say the Government is doing behind the scenes,which You have mentioned, nor hurt America in any way. What changes was he going to make that were so dreadful that you refuse to even watch him speak?

What did he plan for the Government that makes you feel he was planning on hurting the United States, deliberately, with full intention? And that the Government and all who are associated with it plan basically betraying your country.

Anyway I will ponder your statements. By the way, I didn't mean to use Caps when I posted what you stated . I did use red but caps are a different matter. I was out and when I came back I saw my post. Sorry.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Dreaming is more fun than the trip in most cases, it seems to me. No wasted time or money. Have fun. Thanks for sharing.



MaidInBedlam said:


> Viking River Cruises keeps sending me all sorts of advertising and making me drool. The catch is that cruises usually cost about $300-$400 a day while the cargo ships charge around $100 a day. I want length as well as wonderful sights if I can manage to afford any kind of cruising. Dreaming is free, and we don't get to touch what we've saved for retirement.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Satire alert. You're smart. You know the answer to this rhetorical question indeed!



Poor Purl said:


> Hi, Camacho. You and your husband must have infinite patience to do all that reading. What you say completely goes against postings by one person on D&P who claims to have read the Koran and lists about a hundred passages that advocate violence to nonbelievers. Gee, whom should I believe, you and your husband, who _actually_ bothered to read the book, or that woman, who copies everything from other websites, without even giving those sites the credit?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Now that's a holiday all can embrace.



Poor Purl said:


> Thank you. We've already begun celebrating. The custom is to send a lot of food to friends and to drink so much that you can't distinguish between good and evil. Our friends have all been fed; we're still working on the next part.
> 
> This is my favorite holiday of all.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I would imagine you agree with me as to why that is happening.


Absolutely. It's been clear since Day One.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Happy Purim!
> I didn't want to seem a hypocrite, stopping in the middle of an argument to wish you a happy holiday, but I am glad that you've enjoyed it.


What's a little argument between friends? I hope we can all carry two different thoughts in our minds - if not, there's always the Happy Place where only one thought is acceptable to the entire group.

Thanks for the wish.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I am sorry that happened. I just feel he never had a chance to really show what he wanted to do. I didn't realize that he was planning on changing your country in a negative way. Please - what were his plans to change the United States so drastically, that you decided you wanted nothing to do with him to the extent that you have no respect for him and believe he can hurt your country. Isn't the division in America causing hurt to your country, and that is put in motion by those on the right who decided before he even first ran that they were going to undermine him and not cooperate with him in any way. I have never felt you were against him because of his race. I however believe that that is the main thing that is happening in the US. especially in the deep south and definitely in the Born again Christians and the Religious right.
> 
> Maybe I have a geriatric memory, but I honestly don't remember any discussion or accusation that he was planning bad things for America,or wanted to Change the Government and other things you say the Government is doing behind the scenes,which You have mentioned, nor hurt America in any way. What changes was he going to make that were so dreadful that you refuse to even watch him speak?
> 
> ...


Designer1234
the GOP feared that the first black President would outshine many of his white predecessors and before he even stepped into the White House they plotted to NEVER agree with him and block any and all of his proposals.
The behavior of the GOP towards President Obama is despicable. No prev. President had to deal with so much opposition as this one and on top of all UGLY and HATEFUL slurs towards him and his wife.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I believe that I expressed it as my opinion. If you can show me otherwise, I'll believe you.


Here's what you wrote: http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-319207-120.html#6971005

Though you do say "as I see it," you seem to go on to things that are not covered by that phrase. And you close with an unqualified "Evil is running our country."


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO (note the IMO), I don't think he was "ignoring the gathering". I think he was sending a message, a very blatant message.


That I agree with. I just don't know for certain whom the message is meant for.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

While we're still (okay, I am still) on the subject of Purim (someone here once described all of Jewish history as: Someone tried to destroy us; they failed; let's eat!), things like that don't happen only in the Middle East. Here's something from our very own West Coast:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/06/us/debate-on-a-jewish-student-at-ucla.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> What's a little argument between friends? I hope we can all carry two different thoughts in our minds - if not, there's always the Happy Place where only one thought is acceptable to the entire group.
> 
> Thanks for the wish.


 :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I don't think that we are betraying Israel. Why can't Netanyahu wait another 2 to 3 weeks to see the results of the talks going on?
> It's known that Obama and Netanyahu clash on many issues.


You said what I was trying to say.

I am sure, since Israel became a State, that other leaders of both countries have strongly disagreed with each other at different times throughout their history. But this is something different.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> You said what I was trying to say.
> 
> I am sure, since Israel became a State, that other leaders of both countries have strongly disagreed with each other at different times throughout their history. But this is something different.


Designer1234
it is no doubt something quite different.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> Designer1234
> it is no doubt something quite different.


The difference is the Republican party and that asshat Boehner kissing the collective asses of the Tea Party.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Here's what you wrote: http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-319207-120.html#6971005
> 
> Though you do say "as I see it," you seem to go on to things that are not covered by that phrase. And you close with an unqualified "Evil is running our country."


I think I'm covered by the " as I see it". And I still think that evil is running our country. (Note the "think")

I don't feel the need to preface every sentence I write with a disclaimer. Once should be enough. Neither do I call out others on every sentence they write. I disagree on lots but think that everyone's allowed to think what they like.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think I'm covered by the " as I see it". And I still think that evil is running our country. (Note the "think")
> 
> I don't feel the need to preface every sentence I write with a disclaimer. Once should be enough. Neither do I call out others on every sentence they write. I disagree on lots but think that everyone's allowed to think what they like.


Okay, but if I were your editor, I'd want everything made explicit. So be thankful I'm not your editor.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> While we're still (okay, I am still) on the subject of Purim (someone here once described all of Jewish history as: Someone tried to destroy us; they failed; let's eat!), things like that don't happen only in the Middle East. Here's something from our very own West Coast:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/06/us/debate-on-a-jewish-student-at-ucla.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news


I read about this a few days ago. While following links, I watched this video and shared a link to it here. I don't know if you saw it or not. I was and am, shocked that these things are happening on America's campuses. This is being sanctioned by professors! If this isn't evil, I don't know what you'd call it. 
http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-319207-116.html#6955003


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

DGreen said:


> The difference is the Republican party and that asshat Boehner kissing the collective asses of the Tea Party.


and Boehner has some pretty chapped lips :hunf:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

News report says that in 2014, obama threatened to shoot down Israeli jets if they went after Iran's nuclear capabilities. If true, I'm sure it contributed to the bad blood between obama and netanyahu.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/191966


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> News report says that in 2014, obama threatened to shoot down Israeli jets if they went after Iran's nuclear capabilities. If true, I'm sure it contributed to the bad blood between obama and netanyahu.
> http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/191966


The bad blood goes back well before 2014. Read the article - Obama had a good reason for the threat, since the purpose of the air strike was to derail peaceful negotiations.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I've a difficult time thinking that a deal will be reached and kept with Iran. A senior Iranian cleric with close ties to the ayatollah, vowed on Friday to raise the flag of islam over the white house. Yeah, they sound reasonable. Give peace a chance?
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Iran-cleric-vows-to-raise-flag-of-Islam-on-White-House-to-avenge-Israeli-attack-392445


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

"Odds of war between Israel and Iran just went way up.". The National Council of Resistance of Iran has divulged a huge, secret, underground nuclear facility that Iran did not admit to. The NCRI has a record of accurately disclosing secret uranium enrichment sites.
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/odds-war-israel-iran-just-went-way


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Saudi Arabia has offered Israel the use of its airspace if it becomes necessary for Israel to take out Iran's nuclear program.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/saudis-said-to-mull-air-passage-for-israeli-jets-to-attack-iran/

Good thing too, since obama said he'd shoot them down if they flew over Iraq. With friends like us, who needs enemies?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Okay, but if I were your editor, I'd want everything made explicit. So be thankful I'm not your editor.


If I ever decide to publish, I'll keep this in mind. :XD:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> The bad blood goes back well before 2014. Read the article - Obama had a good reason for the threat, since the purpose of the air strike was to derail peaceful negotiations.


The question comes to the content of the negotiations. Obama is going to let Iran keep what they have and develop a nuclear weapon in ten years. Not a good prospect for Israel. Israel has every right to expect her allies to defend her.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The question comes to the content of the negotiations. Obama is going to let Iran keep what they have and develop a nuclear weapon in ten years. Not a good prospect for Israel. Israel has every right to expect her allies to defend her.


You've put something of a spin on the content. Lifting rerictions after 10 years may be he only way to leave room for a deal the Iranians can sign. It is NOT carte blanche approval to develop nuclear weapons at some point in time. Lots can happen in 10 years, and if there is an absolute prohibition on weapons-grade enrichment...? Netanyahu's approach leaves room for nothing but war instead of the ability to monitor Iran's activities and avoid war.

I have avoided most of this discussion because I'm no expert on the mid-East or Israel; I'm pretty much an isolationist. Yes, we should honor our committment to Israel but allowing Israel to call the shots on internal US politics and policy? Ah - no.

Boehner was dead wrong to invite Netanyahu. Imagine the uproar if Obama had gone to speak at the Knesset against Netanyahu.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I've a difficult time thinking that a deal will be reached and kept with Iran. A senior Iranian cleric with close ties to the ayatollah, vowed on Friday to raise the flag of islam over the white house. Yeah, they sound reasonable. Give peace a chance?
> http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Iran-cleric-vows-to-raise-flag-of-Islam-on-White-House-to-avenge-Israeli-attack-392445


Thanks for writing this. I was just tutoring and read my student's textbook on the pact between Stalin and Hitler. I think any pact with Iran and the States will end the same way.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I read about this a few days ago. While following links, I watched this video and shared a link to it here. I don't know if you saw it or not. I was and am, shocked that these things are happening on America's campuses. This is being sanctioned by professors! If this isn't evil, I don't know what you'd call it.
> http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-319207-116.html#6955003


I missed it when you linked to it, but DH is usually on top of these things. I wish I could say I found it shocking, but the only part that surprises me is the inability of some people to mask their bias. Maybe they feel that if they pick on a smaller minority, they'll get away with it.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> Moi, aussi.
> I had a dental implant yesterday.


Hope you are comfortable. I had to have a post inserted into a tooth root in preparation for a crown on Thursday. No pain which is great. Thank goodness for modern dentistry. Costs a fortune though.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Actually I think Hamantashens are great - especially the ones filled with chocolate or poppy. They are easy to make - use regular dough and cut and folded into that triangular shape.
> 
> Thanks CQ for posting.
> 
> Is it okay to start a new project rather than do a WIP?


 :XD: Well, your new project will become a WIP as soon as you cast on! But you use the semantics you want. :XD:


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You've put something of a spin on the content. Lifting rerictions after 10 years may be he only way to leave room for a deal the Iranians can sign. It is NOT carte blanche approval to develop nuclear weapons at some point in time. Lots can happen in 10 years, and if there is an absolute prohibition on weapons-grade enrichment...? Netanyahu's approach leaves room for nothing but war instead of the ability to monitor Iran's activities and avoid war.
> 
> I have avoided most of this discussion because I'm no expert on the mid-East or Israel; I'm pretty much an isolationist. Yes, we should honor our committment to Israel but allowing Israel to call the shots on internal US politics and policy? Ah - no.
> 
> Boehner was dead wrong to invite Netanyahu. Imagine the uproar if Obama had gone to speak at the Knesset against Netanyahu.


DGreen
thank you for speaking so honestly. I agree with you totally. Boehner's constant drinking seems to interfere with clear thinking. It was the worst decision he could have ever made. You are right, had Obama dared to speak behind Netanyahu's back to the Knesset, Netanyahu would have revolted big time.
I am glad to get 10 years. It will work in our favor knowing the sentiment of the young Iranians. They have been oppressed and are hoping and looking for a change which will bring relief.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> Thanks for writing this. I was just tutoring and read my student's textbook on the pact between Stalin and Hitler. I think any pact with Iran and the States will end the same way.


SQM
I bet against that.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The question comes to the content of the negotiations. Obama is going to let Iran keep what they have and develop a nuclear weapon in ten years. Not a good prospect for Israel. Israel has every right to expect her allies to defend her.


Knitter from Nebraska
if it was not for us Israel most likely would no longer exist. What makes you think that in 10 years we would change our position re. Iran having Nuclear Weapons? We will always protect Israel and always work against Iran becoming a Nuclear Power. Many things may be unclear but these points are not.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> While we're still (okay, I am still) on the subject of Purim (someone here once described all of Jewish history as: Someone tried to destroy us; they failed; let's eat!), things like that don't happen only in the Middle East. Here's something from our very own West Coast:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/06/us/debate-on-a-jewish-student-at-ucla.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news


That article sent shivers down my spine. The following paragraph provoked a lot of thought for me:



quote said:


> "Yet some Jewish leaders here questioned whether Mr. Block or the students appreciated the meaning of the event. John L. Rosove, the senior rabbi at Temple Israel of Hollywood, said the incident reflects something deeper, more troubling, insidious, and pervasive not just at U.C.L.A. but on college campuses nationwide.


I think what is reflected here is a strong identification by the students of what their parents and other significant adults views are.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> SQM
> I bet against that.


How can you trust a country whose leaders are very clear about wanting to kill Jews?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Jews aren't the only ones they want to kill. Christians fall into that category too. I don't think it is a matter of trust.
They will be closely monitored by intelligence from all around the world.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Jews aren't the only ones they want to kill. Christians fall into that category too. I don't think it is a matter of trust.
> They will be closely monitored by intelligence from all around the world.


Why is it that Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries are joining the Israeli bandwagon against making any deals with Iran?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> if it was not for us Israel most likely would no longer exist. What makes you think that in 10 years we would change our position re. Iran having Nuclear Weapons? We will always protect Israel and always work against Iran becoming a Nuclear Power. Many things may be unclear but these points are not.


I think that is true.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> Why is it that Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries are joining the Israeli bandwagon against making any deals with Iran?


Bandwagon is the right term for the Saudis and other Arab countries who are friendly to the US (for now). They'll join the crowd and pump their fists - from a well-protected position behind the US or even Israel rather than step up themselves. Worthless bastards.

Trust is a stupid word to use when referring to the middle East. No one there trusts anyone else and I'm willing to bet Obama doesn't trust Iran in the least. Or any of those other countries because he knows that region has a long, long history of treachery and double-dealing. We can't win there. Ever. Period. We should let those people deal with their own problems. Think about it. The Arabs are laughing their asses off while the US slugs it out in wars they should be fighting themselves.

What he is correct about is using diplomacy FIRST. He knows the American people are thoroughly sick of war though we very well may need to deploy boots on the ground against ISIS. We have a military that is exhausted and decimated by the last 15 years of fruitless death and destruction. Enough.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Bandwagon is the right term for the Saudis and other Arab countries who are friendly to the US (for now). They'll join the crowd and pump their fists - from a well-protected position behind the US or even Israel rather than step up themselves. Worthless bastards.
> 
> Trust is a stupid word to use when referring to the middle East. No one there trusts anyone else and I'm willing to bet Obama doesn't trust Iran in the least. Or any of those other countries because he knows that region has a long, long history of treachery and double-dealing. We can't win there. Ever. Period. We should let those people deal with their own problems. Think about it. The Arabs are laughing their asses off while the US slugs it out in wars they should be fighting themselves.
> 
> What he is correct about is using diplomacy FIRST. He knows the American people are thoroughly sick of war though we very well may need to deploy boots on the ground against ISIS. We have a military that is exhausted and decimated by the last 15 years of fruitless death and destruction. Enough.


Agree but I did read some news headlines and polls saying that Americans are willing to tangle with IS.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> Agree but I did read some news headlines and polls saying that Americans are willing to tangle with IS.


Yes, Americans are terrified of ISIS. As we should be. That doesn't mean we can expect to send troops to Iraq or Syria or anywhere else and expect Rambo to wipe out the bad guys. Americans have a pretty unrealistic, simplistic idea of our military capabilities. This isn't Pork Chop Hill.

Americans have a fundamental, cultural sense of integrity and fair play which puts us at a decided disadvantage in the middle east. We are dealing with a fluid, nimble enemy who understands the culture at a visceral level while we don't understand it at all. We are not like them. We can't shift alliances based on today's realities - it goes against everything we value. They don't have that problem. While we discuss, criticize and argue about who did what and when, ISIS is getting on with the fighting and they'll fight shoulder to shoulder with anyone for their cause. We want to be the good guys. They don't care and they have no problem with barbarism - it's their history.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Bandwagon is the right term for the Saudis and other Arab countries who are friendly to the US (for now). They'll join the crowd and pump their fists - from a well-protected position behind the US or even Israel rather than step up themselves. Worthless bastards.
> 
> Trust is a stupid word to use when referring to the middle East. No one there trusts anyone else and I'm willing to bet Obama doesn't trust Iran in the least. Or any of those other countries because he knows that region has a long, long history of treachery and double-dealing. We can't win there. Ever. Period. We should let those people deal with their own problems. Think about it. The Arabs are laughing their asses off while the US slugs it out in wars they should be fighting themselves.
> 
> What he is correct about is using diplomacy FIRST. He knows the American people are thoroughly sick of war though we very well may need to deploy boots on the ground against ISIS. We have a military that is exhausted and decimated by the last 15 years of fruitless death and destruction. Enough.


The idea of letting them deal with their own problems on the face of it is reasonable. Who knows whether they'll be able to sort themselves out and in that vein, the M.E., apart from it's callous attack in N.Y., that day, haven't they shown considerable restraint otherwise? Or is that just a coincidence? There must be some good minds over there preventing an all out apocalypse surely, at least they were until IS reared it head.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

...consider this.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Bright Green - the Saudis might be lousy fighters even with a big military budget.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> ...consider this.


Wouldn't that be grand? I read in an article by Wiki that they're prepared to stand up to IS and it took the murder of one of their pilots to spur them into action. What that action is I haven't been able to decipher. I probably haven't looked hard enough.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> ...consider this.


Wouldn't that be grand? I read in an article by Wiki that they're prepared to stand up to IS and it took the murder of one of their pilots to spur them into action. What that action is I haven't been able to decipher. I probably haven't looked hard enough.

This is interesting though:

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=saudi-arabia


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> Bright Green - the Saudis might be lousy fighters even with a big military budget.


I think you're right about that. My dear BIL and SIL lived in Saudi Arabia for several years, then moved to Egypt. He worked for a Saudi "prince" as an archiect. His obsevations and stories about their eight years there have colored my views. He found them to be consummate hypocrites. Deeply religious at home, once out of Saudi airspace on the way to Paris or London, the booze came out and all traces of religious observances were gone. The Saudis do no work of any kind themselves but hire Americans or Egyptians to do it for them, even though they often have the best education money can buy. Their strict separation of the sexes has led to a culture that is seriously warped and rampant with homosexuality and sexual violence. My beautiful, blonde SIL was confined to their compound anytime hubby was gone because it was too dangerous to leave, even completely covered with a bhurka, which she wore for her own protection whenever she left home. A weird existence and they were very glad to relocate to Egypt. I have no doubt the Saudi military is a joke - but that doesn't mean they can be excused from responsibility. ISIS is in their backyard, not ours.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

I'm about to watch 'The Case Against 8' which looks at the historic case to overturn California's ban on same sex marriage. First federal marriage equality lawsuit in the US Supreme court. Speak later.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Bright Green - the Saudis might be lousy fighters even with a big military budget.


The Saudis can afford to be lousy fighters. Their petrodollar agreement with the US says that we will do their fighting for them.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The Saudis can afford to be lousy fighters. Their petrodollar agreement with the US says that we will do their fighting for them.


Please provide documentation for this remarkable claim. I want to see the actual words that say the US will defend the Saudi homeland.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The Saudis can afford to be lousy fighters. Their petrodollar agreement with the US says that we will do their fighting for them.


I just remembered. The Saudi's did an air strike over strategic IS controlled areas in either Iraq or Syria in retaliation to their pilot being tortured by burning to death. I haven't heard of anything else they've done.

I spent some time in Egypt and noticed very quickly that the Egyptians run things in their own time regardless of any matter of urgency or emergency. I was at a market in Luxor when a man collapsed. I went to his aid, he was in heart failure so I started first aid and I'm surrounded by a crowd of men and I'm asking for them to get a 'medic' or 'doctor' and to help me but no, no one helped. The man eventually responded to my CPR so I put him on his side, crowd around me closing in and I literally screamed 'get me a doctor or an ambulance' and within about 5 minutes there were two guys standing there with a stretcher. It took 40 minutes from whoa to go. Then I was shoved aside while they loaded the poor guy onto the stretcher and took off with him. Never did find out if he was okay.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I just remembered. The Saudi's did an air strike over strategic IS controlled areas in either Iraq or Syria in retaliation to their pilot being tortured by burning to death. I haven't heard of anything else they've done.
> 
> I spent some time in Egypt and noticed very quickly that the Egyptians run things in their own time regardless of any matter of urgency or emergency. I was at a market in Luxor when a man collapsed. I went to his aid, he was in heart failure so I started first aid and I'm surrounded by a crowd of men and I'm asking for them to get a 'medic' or 'doctor' and to help me but no, no one helped. The man eventually responded to my CPR so I put him on his side, crowd around me closing in and I literally screamed 'get me a doctor or an ambulance' and within about 5 minutes there were two guys standing there with a stretcher. It took 40 minutes from whoa to go. Then I was shoved aside while they loaded the poor guy onto the stretcher and took off with him. Never did find out if he was okay.


The pilot who was burned to death was Jordanian, not Saudi. The King of Jordan immediately ordered a strong response and recently was interviewed on 60 Minutes. He seems to be moderate and intelligent, but I'm not really familiar with Jordan. He said that middle eastern countries MUST lead the fight against extremism.

My BIL also described the Egyptians as very laid back. They are very family-oriented, love to laugh and have a good time, unlike a lot of people in the region who are extremely religious. What a bizarre experience you had. You're a hero, though.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> The pilot who was burned to death was Jordanian, not Saudi. The King of Jordan immediately ordered a strong response and recently was interviewed on 60 Minutes. He seems to be moderate and intelligent, but I'm not really familiar with Jordan. He said that middle eastern countries MUST lead the fight against extremism.
> 
> My BIL also described the Egyptians as very laid back. They are very family-oriented, love to laugh and have a good time, unlike a lot of people in the region who are extremely religious. What a bizarre experience you had. You're a hero, though.


You are absolutely right. My mistake. No hero here. I may as well have been on a desert island, just me and my patient!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I just remembered. The Saudi's did an air strike over strategic IS controlled areas in either Iraq or Syria in retaliation to their pilot being tortured by burning to death. I haven't heard of anything else they've done.
> 
> I spent some time in Egypt and noticed very quickly that the Egyptians run things in their own time regardless of any matter of urgency or emergency. I was at a market in Luxor when a man collapsed. I went to his aid, he was in heart failure so I started first aid and I'm surrounded by a crowd of men and I'm asking for them to get a 'medic' or 'doctor' and to help me but no, no one helped. The man eventually responded to my CPR so I put him on his side, crowd around me closing in and I literally screamed 'get me a doctor or an ambulance' and within about 5 minutes there were two guys standing there with a stretcher. It took 40 minutes from whoa to go. Then I was shoved aside while they loaded the poor guy onto the stretcher and took off with him. Never did find out if he was okay.


Hip Hip Hooray for the Wombat we all would want to travel with. 
Hip Hip Hooray for the Wombat with whom we would all want to travel.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> War #I and #II were declared . I believe that Viet nam and Korea were passed through Congress but I am not sure. I am too tired to look them up now. The after effects on those who fought in Viet Nam is still affecting many people in the States from what I have seen and heard. Interesting question, I have never thought about the answer to those questions. Shows how much I know.
> 
> I just know that Canada Opted out of VietNam and as my sons would have been exactly the right age . That is something I have always agreed with and have been thankful for. I didn't realize that we did actually fight in the Korean war - Pat was part of it after the war ended and was with the United nations peacekeepers and so I just never thought to find out.
> 
> Too many wars I hope somehow the situation in the middle east will calm down but I don't see how that will happen.


I think I said this recently, somewhere, so pardon the repetition. The last time the US properly declared war on any other country(s) was in 1941. FDR had managed to keep us out of the European conflict which maintained our general isolationist policies but after Pearl Harbor that was no longer possible.

For this country to officially declare war Congress has to draw up the "articles of war". Only Congress can do this, and in the absence of an article of war whatever armed conflict we get involved in isn't officially a war. This is one of those Constitutional "checks and balances" processes. However, the President can use his "constitutional discretion" so we can take military action, but, when he does so, whatever military action we take is usually called a "police action". That was what our presence in Korea was called. In the case of Vietnam we called it an "armed conflict".


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Bright Green - the Saudis might be lousy fighters even with a big military budget.


Anyone who saw the pictures taken after the 6-day War would agree: tons of army boots left behind in the desert so that their wearers could run away faster.

Come to think of it, one of the jokes that came out of that was "Guns for the Arabs. Sneakers for the Jews."


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Agree but I did read some news headlines and polls saying that Americans are willing to tangle with IS.


If you discount all Americans who won't actually fight and don't have family who would fight, the polls would probably show the opposite.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I just remembered. The Saudi's did an air strike over strategic IS controlled areas in either Iraq or Syria in retaliation to their pilot being tortured by burning to death. I haven't heard of anything else they've done.
> 
> I spent some time in Egypt and noticed very quickly that the Egyptians run things in their own time regardless of any matter of urgency or emergency. I was at a market in Luxor when a man collapsed. I went to his aid, he was in heart failure so I started first aid and I'm surrounded by a crowd of men and I'm asking for them to get a 'medic' or 'doctor' and to help me but no, no one helped. The man eventually responded to my CPR so I put him on his side, crowd around me closing in and I literally screamed 'get me a doctor or an ambulance' and within about 5 minutes there were two guys standing there with a stretcher. It took 40 minutes from whoa to go. Then I was shoved aside while they loaded the poor guy onto the stretcher and took off with him. Never did find out if he was okay.


What an amazing story. At least the Egyptians around you didn't feel the need to pull you away from working on the man simply because you were a woman. Saudis might have.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Not sure how the polls work exactly but I would think they would eliminate those obvious categories. We are now being run by FEAR and Americans would probably vote for going in.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I think I said this recently, somewhere, so pardon the repetition. The last time the US properly declared war on any other country(s) was in 1941. FDR had managed to keep us out of the European conflict which maintained our general isolationist policies but after Pearl Harbor that was no longer possible.
> 
> For this country to officially declare war Congress has to draw up the "articles of war". Only Congress can do this, and in the absence of an article of war whatever armed conflict we get involved in isn't officially a war. This is one of those Constitutional "checks and balances" processes. However, the President can use his "constitutional discretion" so we can take military action, but, when he does so, whatever military action we take is usually called a "police action". That was what our presence in Korea was called. In the case of Vietnam we called it an "armed conflict".


The "police action" in Korea has been ongoing for how long, now?

Thanks for the clarification.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> I think you're right about that. My dear BIL and SIL lived in Saudi Arabia for several years, then moved to Egypt. He worked for a Saudi "prince" as an archiect. His obsevations and stories about their eight years there have colored my views. He found them to be consummate hypocrites. Deeply religious at home, once out of Saudi airspace on the way to Paris or London, the booze came out and all traces of religious observances were gone. The Saudis do no work of any kind themselves but hire Americans or Egyptians to do it for them, even though they often have the best education money can buy. Their strict separation of the sexes has led to a culture that is seriously warped and rampant with homosexuality and sexual violence. My beautiful, blonde SIL was confined to their compound anytime hubby was gone because it was too dangerous to leave, even completely covered with a bhurka, which she wore for her own protection whenever she left home. A weird existence and they were very glad to relocate to Egypt. I have no doubt the Saudi military is a joke - but that doesn't mean they can be excused from responsibility. ISIS is in their backyard, not ours.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Bandwagon is the right term for the Saudis and other Arab countries who are friendly to the US (for now). They'll join the crowd and pump their fists - from a well-protected position behind the US or even Israel rather than step up themselves. Worthless bastards.
> 
> Trust is a stupid word to use when referring to the middle East. No one there trusts anyone else and I'm willing to bet Obama doesn't trust Iran in the least. Or any of those other countries because he knows that region has a long, long history of treachery and double-dealing. We can't win there. Ever. Period. We should let those people deal with their own problems. Think about it. The Arabs are laughing their asses off while the US slugs it out in wars they should be fighting themselves.
> 
> What he is correct about is using diplomacy FIRST. He knows the American people are thoroughly sick of war though we very well may need to deploy boots on the ground against ISIS. We have a military that is exhausted and decimated by the last 15 years of fruitless death and destruction. Enough.


DGreen
we Americans need to make it perfectly clear that we no longer are willing to quickly fight someone-else's battles. When that sinks in, other Nations may finally step up and fight their own Wars. If we think any War is just, we can always pitch in but should refrain from being the front runners. We also need to make sure that those in charge will never again start Wars as Bush/Cheney did.
Too much of our blood has been spilled but thanks is not coming our way. Even if someone like Netanyahu does not like the multi-national negotiations with Iran, he should be thankful for all we have done for Israel and certainly will do in the future. He is a thankless Xxxxxxxx. Circumventing our President is making his thanklessness quite clear.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I think you're right about that. My dear BIL and SIL lived in Saudi Arabia for several years, then moved to Egypt. He worked for a Saudi "prince" as an archiect. His obsevations and stories about their eight years there have colored my views. He found them to be consummate hypocrites. Deeply religious at home, once out of Saudi airspace on the way to Paris or London, the booze came out and all traces of religious observances were gone. The Saudis do no work of any kind themselves but hire Americans or Egyptians to do it for them, even though they often have the best education money can buy. Their strict separation of the sexes has led to a culture that is seriously warped and rampant with homosexuality and sexual violence. My beautiful, blonde SIL was confined to their compound anytime hubby was gone because it was too dangerous to leave, even completely covered with a bhurka, which she wore for her own protection whenever she left home. A weird existence and they were very glad to relocate to Egypt. I have no doubt the Saudi military is a joke - but that doesn't mean they can be excused from responsibility. ISIS is in their backyard, not ours.


DGreen
what you describe is exactly what friends reported from Saudi Arabia. Also have a very close friend who is a body guard to some royal Saudis when they are in western countries. His stories are eye-opening.
Foreign Oil Worker's wives and children are confined to Compounds to keep them safe from all sorts of aggression.
Much of how we see and have seen the Saudis is for show only.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> we Americans need to make it perfectly clear that we no longer are willing to quickly fight someone-else's battles. When that sinks in, other Nations may finally step up and fight their own Wars. If we think any War is just, we can always pitch in but should refrain from being the front runners. We also need to make sure that those in charge will never again start Wars as Bush/Cheney did.
> Too much of our blood has been spilled but thanks is not coming our way. Even if someone like Netanyahu does not like the multi-national negotiations with Iran, he should be thankful for all we have done for Israel and certainly will do in the future. He is a thankless Xxxxxxxx. Circumventing our President is making his thanklessness quite clear.


That is very unlikely. Not with people on the right foaming at the mouth to jump into any and all fights around the world. Any time diplomacy is tried, the right screams "you are weak" and "the president should be more like Putin." If things don't change we are doomed to be in a perpetual war or wars.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> we Americans need to make it perfectly clear that we no longer are willing to quickly fight someone-else's battles. When that sinks in, other Nations may finally step up and fight their own Wars. If we think any War is just, we can always pitch in but should refrain from being the front runners. We also need to make sure that those in charge will never again start Wars as Bush/Cheney did.
> Too much of our blood has been spilled but thanks is not coming our way. Even if someone like Netanyahu does not like the multi-national negotiations with Iran, he should be thankful for all we have done for Israel and certainly will do in the future. He is a thankless Xxxxxxxx. Circumventing our President is making his thanklessness quite clear.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> we Americans need to make it perfectly clear that we no longer are willing to quickly fight someone-else's battles. When that sinks in, other Nations may finally step up and fight their own Wars. If we think any War is just, we can always pitch in but should refrain from being the front runners. We also need to make sure that those in charge will never again start Wars as Bush/Cheney did.
> Too much of our blood has been spilled but thanks is not coming our way. Even if someone like Netanyahu does not like the multi-national negotiations with Iran, he should be thankful for all we have done for Israel and certainly will do in the future. He is a thankless Xxxxxxxx. Circumventing our President is making his thanklessness quite clear.


_we Americans need to make it perfectly clear that we no longer are willing to quickly fight someone-else's battles._

Seems like that is what Obama is trying to do.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> That is very unlikely. Not with people on the right foaming at the mouth to jump into any and all fights around the world. Any time diplomacy is tried, the right screams "you are weak" and "the president should be more like Putin." If things don't change we are doomed to be in a perpetual war or wars.


Well said. I agree.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> That is very unlikely. Not with people on the right foaming at the mouth to jump into any and all fights around the world. Any time diplomacy is tried, the right screams "you are weak" and "the president should be more like Putin." If things don't change we are doomed to be in a perpetual war or wars.


If we ever get into another war, I think the draft will have to be reinstituted---unless, of course, the people (right-wing hawks) who want war send their own children and grandchildren.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Hip Hip Hooray for the Wombat we all would want to travel with.
> Hip Hip Hooray for the Wombat with whom we would all want to travel.


Oh you! I don't even know if the poor man made it. Anyway, it was an experience I'll never forget, nor the poor man I would think.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> What an amazing story. At least the Egyptians around you didn't feel the need to pull you away from working on the man simply because you were a woman. Saudis might have.


That's true, but I doubt any of them had any idea of how to help the man. It seemed they were enjoying the spectacle too much to feel any concern about me being a woman or the gentleman being in such dire straits!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> If we ever get into another war, I think the draft will have to be reinstituted---unless, of course, the people (right-wing hawks) who want war send their own children and grandchildren.


You're right. We've used up our military with repeated tours of duty. I have a grandson of draft age and I sure don't want to see him used for cannon fodder. NO MORE WARS.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

DGreen said:


> You're right. We've used up our military with repeated tours of duty. I have a grandson of draft age and I sure don't want to see him used for cannon fodder. NO MORE WARS.


It isn't the decision makers that are sent out to die.
Let the hawks send their own children and grandchildren to fight. Maybe we need to reinstate the draft and stop sending the same troops over and over again. They have done more than enough already in service to the country.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

DGreen said:


> _we Americans need to make it perfectly clear that we no longer are willing to quickly fight someone-else's battles._
> 
> Seems like that is what Obama is trying to do.


He is correct in doing this. We can't police the whole world any longer. :thumbup:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> He is correct in doing this. We can't police the whole world any longer. :thumbup:


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Please provide documentation for this remarkable claim. I want to see the actual words that say the US will defend the Saudi homeland.


If you want to see the actual words, search for them, yourself.

For those who are not familiar, I'll give a short explanation of how the petrodollar came about. I hope everyone will research for themselves, because no one is likely to believe what I say.

Following World War II, the world's wealthiest nations got together and forged an agreement called "The Bretton Woods Agreement". Out of this agreement came " the World Bank" and the "IMF (international Monetary Fund)". They also agreed the the United States dollar would become the international monetary unit (or currency used for trade between countries). The US had to agree that the dollar would be backed by gold. They also agreed to a stable price for gold, thirty something an ounce. (I think it was $38 an ounce). This went well for many years. Demand for the dollar kept the dollar strong and the US flourished.

Then came the Viet Nam war. We were spending more than we had. Other countries questioned whether the dollars being printed to pay for the war, were backed by gold. France was the first to turn in their dollars and demand gold. Other countries followed. Nixon responded by breaking the Bretton Woods Agreement and took the US dollar off the gold standard, He refused to give them their gold. Now, the dollar was backed by nothing. It was just paper. This caused an uproar, so Nixon and his people, had to find a way to make other countries need the dollar again. This was in the early 70s, about the time of the big oil embargo. Nixon sent Kissinger to Saudi Arabia to make a deal. The deal was that the Saudis would only sell oil for dollars and then deposit their profits into US Treasury bonds, reaping more profit, and the US would provide them with weapons and military protection against anyone, but specifically Israel. The Saudis were afraid Israel would attack them. The Saudis got the other oil producing countries to accept the same deal. Thus, the birth of the "petrodollar". Every country in the world, who needed to import oil, had to purchase that oil with dollars. That meant they either had to buy the dollars or trade goods for those dollars. Usually, they couldn't afford to buy the dollars because the dollar was so strong against other currencies. So, in most cases they created cheap goods that were in high demand in the US, and were paid with dollars which they could then use to buy oil.

All of this was great for the US. There was a never ending demand for dollars. So, the government spent and spent and the federal reserve printed and printed. They printed so much money that inflation took place. It kept taking more and more dollars for countries to buy oil. The quality of life in many countries was falling because the dollars they were working so hard for, wouldn't buy as much oil as they needed. They had to borrow money from the World Bank, the terms of which were impossible to meet. When they couldn't pay, they had to borrow more. Eventually they were so in debt that the world bank started to dictate to them, how they should run their countries.

Several countries had had enough. Iran was one. They decided to sell their oil without using the dollar. I can't remember if they were selling oil for gold, or other currencies. That couldn't be allowed, so sanctions were put on them so that they couldn't get more than the bare minimum of food and medical supplies. They still managed to conduct some trade with China and Russia. Then Sadaam Hussein of Iraq, had had enough. France and other European nations didn't want to use the dollar either. So Hussein started selling them oil for Euros. We all know what happened to him. There were NO weapons of mass destruction, but he had to be stopped. Then it was Ghadafi. Again, we know what happened to him.

Russia and China got into the game. They formed a trade partnership with each other and Brazil, India and South Africa. They're called the BRICS nations (Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa). They're conducting trade with other currencies and with gold. They even formed their own monetary bank for trade, the BRICS Bank. The US is doing everything they can to impede that trade, ie they want to stop Russia from being able to use the ports in Syria and the Ukraine. They've turned some of the eastern European nations against Russia to stop oil and natural gas pipelines going to Europe. They've been putting a lot of ships in the Pacific to harass and threaten China. But neither Russia nor China will be stopped. Not without a World War.

IMO, that's where were headed. If they can't stop countries from trading without dollars, the dollar will collapse. All of the countries who are being cheated by the inflating of the dollar, will dump them. We would experience hyperinflation like was seen in the Weimar Republic of Germany. This would be followed by the collapse of the dollar and the United States.

I'm really hoping that everybody will do dome research of their own.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Thanks Huckle - wherever you are. I crocheted the edges of that wrap with white cashmere and now it is back on the closet floor and I dislike it less.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> _we Americans need to make it perfectly clear that we no longer are willing to quickly fight someone-else's battles._
> 
> Seems like that is what Obama is trying to do.


DGreen
yes and from the very beginning hence the Nobel Prize. He made his position on this subject very clear to World leaders and IF he had any support from the GOP, things could be very different already. He is a Diplomat first and foremost.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> Thanks Huckle - wherever you are. I crocheted the edges of that wrap with white cashmere and now it is back on the closet floor and I dislike it less.


SQM
keep fiddling with it and eventually it will be to your liking and wear it proudly. If I may voice my opinion, I don't think white is the best color for it, I would opt more for a soft gray or a lighter or darker tone of the color the chenille is. Just a thought. Huck

I am designing something for a friend. She is into Horses and brought a Tartan Blanket out of which I am making a Vest and embroider it with Horse related designs. That is where I am hanging out right now.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> If you want to see the actual words, search for them, yourself.
> 
> If you put forth a theory and someone asks for documentation, maybe you should be courteous enough to provide it. It isn't up to someone else to prove your statements, if you can't provide the documentation just say so.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> Knitter from Nebraska said:
> 
> 
> > If you want to see the actual words, search for them, yourself.
> ...


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Cindy S
> Nice to see you. I am with you. Huck


Hey Huck!!!!

:thumbup:


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

I'll be back in the loop by some time next week. There was an open house today with a lot of offers. See you soon.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> If you want to see the actual words, search for them, yourself.
> 
> For those who are not familiar, I'll give a short explanation of how the petrodollar came about. I hope everyone will research for themselves, because no one is likely to believe what I say.
> 
> ...


The party making the claim is the one obligated to provide documentation or proof.

What you have provided is a curiously twisted take on history that appears to be closely related to the extreme right-wing belief that the US must return to the gold standard. Doom and gloom - again - along with spouting an extremely dark version of US motives. Articles espousing the version of history you posted are easy enough to find on right-wing propaganda sites, which appears to be where you get your historical OPINIONS.

What you have not done is justify your claim in any way but have taken off on a tangent. Your words were very clear that the "petrodollar" agreement says the US will do Saudi Arabia's fighting for them. It was not qualified in any way or stated as opinion but stated as fact. If there is such an agreement, it should be in the petrodollar agreement you refer to. Kindly provide your source.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> The party making the claim is the one obligated to provide documentation or proof.
> 
> What you have provided is a curiously twisted take on history that appears to be closely related to the extreme right-wing belief that the US must return to the gold standard. Doom and gloom - again - along with spouting an extremely dark version of US motives. Articles espousing the version of history you posted are easy enough to find on right-wing propaganda sites, which appears to be where you get your historical OPINIONS.
> 
> What you have not done is justify your claim in any way but have taken off on a tangent. Your words were very clear that the "petrodollar" agreement says the US will do Saudi Arabia's fighting for them. It was not qualified in any way or stated as opinion but stated as fact. If there is such an agreement, it should be in the petrodollar agreement you refer to. Kindly provide your source.


DGreen
does it not drive you up a tree when someone makes a claim without foundation?


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> If we ever get into another war, I think the draft will have to be reinstituted---unless, of course, the people (right-wing hawks) who want war send their own children and grandchildren.


cookiequeen
I am all in favor of a draft, if EVERYONE gets drafted. I find that at least somewhat fair. NO special favors for kids of the well-to-do. It would be nice never to need a Military BUT that will NEVER happen.
At least we finally are getting to the point of dealing with Cuba amicably. Should have happened decades ago. It would be worrisome to have Cuba again as an Enemy and some foreign power may have an eye on that Island to get close to us. We cannot let that happen. Cuba used to be a Mecca for the moneyed crowd. Hope it can get at least close to that stage once again. The Cubans have suffered enough and for all too long.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> Knitter from Nebraska said:
> 
> 
> > If you want to see the actual words, search for them, yourself.
> ...


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> The party making the claim is the one obligated to provide documentation or proof.
> 
> What you have provided is a curiously twisted take on history that appears to be closely related to the extreme right-wing belief that the US must return to the gold standard. Doom and gloom - again - along with spouting an extremely dark version of US motives. Articles espousing the version of history you posted are easy enough to find on right-wing propaganda sites, which appears to be where you get your historical OPINIONS.
> 
> What you have not done is justify your claim in any way but have taken off on a tangent. Your words were very clear that the "petrodollar" agreement says the US will do Saudi Arabia's fighting for them. It was not qualified in any way or stated as opinion but stated as fact. If there is such an agreement, it should be in the petrodollar agreement you refer to. Kindly provide your source.


Only my last paragraph where I said " IMO'" is opinion. Research it yourself.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It's not a theory. It's history!


It is your interpretation of history. I am more than willing to read any documentation you can present and then I can have my interpretation of the document(s) , but I don't think I need to hunt up that documentation to prove or disprove your statement. I for one, have read the links you have posted in the past. I try to keep and open mind and I don't let slanted articles, slanted one way or another, determine my opinions.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Only my last paragraph where I said " IMO'" is opinion. Research it yourself.


The entire piece is opinion. It is very short on actual facts and long on interpretation and is easily recognizable as such.

Obviously you can't support your statement and I'm not going to go on a wild goose chase to prove your point for you so I'm calling it totally false. Prove me wrong.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> does it not drive you up a tree when someone makes a claim without foundation?


Yes, it does.

Unfortunately, people often accept such statements at face value without consulting the BS Detector. Or even the Plausibility Meter. The republicans count on this when distributing their propaganda.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

DGreen said:


> The entire piece is opinion. It is very short on actual facts and long on interpretation and is easily recognizable as such.
> 
> Obviously you can't support your statement and I'm not going to go on a wild goose chase to prove your point for you so I'm calling it totally false. Prove me wrong.


I think we can only assume at this point that she cannot provide any proof, and besides, how the heck do you prove an "opinion"?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> I think we can only assume at this point that she cannot provide any proof, and besides, how the heck do you prove an "opinion"?


You are right. I was challenging the following claim:

_SQM wrote:
Bright Green - the Saudis might be lousy fighters even with a big military budget.

The Saudis can afford to be lousy fighters. Their petrodollar agreement with the US says that we will do their fighting for them._

You will note she claims the agreement says something specific - that the US will do their (the Saudi's) fighting for them. I want to see the actual words in this remarkable agreement. I certainly didn't ask for a history of US involvement in the middle east gleaned from some right-wing propaganda site, which is an end run around providing substantiation of an outrageous claim.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It's not a theory. It's history!


It's a particular interpretation of history, with some events omitted and others emphasized possibly beyond their importance. You have been reading things written by people who have a theory, and you seem to have accepted their evidence for it. They're not necessarily right.

The same is probably true of your view of economics.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

How about Huffington Post?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/petrodollar-us-saudi-policy_b_6245914.html

Funny! They say almost the same thing I did. But I'm sure no one will believe them either. Right?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

How about Daily Kos?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/27/1360532/-The-Slow-Death-of-the-Petrodollar


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

How about a former intelligence officer for the UK's MI5? She's really harsh.
http://rt.com/op-edge/204063-gorbachev-cold-war-berlin-wall/


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> _we Americans need to make it perfectly clear that we no longer are willing to quickly fight someone-else's battles._
> 
> Seems like that is what Obama is trying to do.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

This ones a few years old but I couldn't resist. The website is called "New Left Project". Admittedly, I didn't read the whole article, just enough to see that it backed what I said.
http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/article_comments/iran_and_the_petrodollar_threat_to_u.s._empire


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> You're right. We've used up our military with repeated tours of duty. I have a grandson of draft age and I sure don't want to see him used for cannon fodder. NO MORE WARS.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I feel that we were wrong starting policing of the world. We have no right.



Cheeky Blighter said:


> He is correct in doing this. We can't police the whole world any longer. :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Very admirable to me.



Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> yes and from the very beginning hence the Nobel Prize. He made his position on this subject very clear to World leaders and IF he had any support from the GOP, things could be very different already. He is a Diplomat first and foremost.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Good for you. I hope you get good offers. Thanks for sharing.

We're thinking of moving too. Love to hear your experiences.



Camacho said:


> I'll be back in the loop by some time next week. There was an open house today with a lot of offers. See you soon.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

This article discusses the Bretton Woods agreement and Nixon taking us off the gold standard.
http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/ROHO/projects/debt/oilcrisis.html

More:
http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/ROHO/projects/debt/terminationgolddollar.html


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We share opinions on Cuba. It will take time to build relationship, but it's best for all of us.



Huckleberry said:


> cookiequeen
> I am all in favor of a draft, if EVERYONE gets drafted. I find that at least somewhat fair. NO special favors for kids of the well-to-do. It would be nice never to need a Military BUT that will NEVER happen.
> At least we finally are getting to the point of dealing with Cuba amicably. Should have happened decades ago. It would be worrisome to have Cuba again as an Enemy and some foreign power may have an eye on that Island to get close to us. We cannot let that happen. Cuba used to be a Mecca for the moneyed crowd. Hope it can get at least close to that stage once again. The Cubans have suffered enough and for all too long.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Anybody want to read what the fed has to say about recycling petrodollars? Boring!

http://www.newyorkfed.org/research/current_issues/ci12-9.html


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

The Pontiac Tribune, anyone? At the end there's a link to another video. I didn't watch it, but anyone who still has doubt's, can.
http://pontiactribune.com/youre-not-told-saudi-arabia-911-petrodollar/


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I think I've pretty well evidenced that what I said was true. I even avoided conservative web sites so I couldn't be called a conspiracy theorist. I didn't want to do this because its actually difficult to find sources that the left trusts, when it comes to things they don't want to talk about. I call it "willful ignorance". 

Now, instead of looking at just one link and ripping it to shreds, go out and do your own research. This is stuff we should know about!

I'm done. I'm going to bed.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Point to Nebs. It is important that we keep our minds open otherwise we are no different than the conservatives.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Thanks Huckle - wherever you are. I crocheted the edges of that wrap with white cashmere and now it is back on the closet floor and I dislike it less.


No! Not white, but if you really love it then I'm glad. It looked great all the one colour though. You must get it off the closet door and drape it around the back of a chair to remind you of your lovely work!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> yes and from the very beginning hence the Nobel Prize. He made his position on this subject very clear to World leaders and IF he had any support from the GOP, things could be very different already. He is a Diplomat first and foremost.


That he most certainly is and a very impressive man.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> SQM
> keep fiddling with it and eventually it will be to your liking and wear it proudly. If I may voice my opinion, I don't think white is the best color for it, I would opt more for a soft gray or a lighter or darker tone of the color the chenille is. Just a thought. Huck
> 
> I am designing something for a friend. She is into Horses and brought a Tartan Blanket out of which I am making a Vest and embroider it with Horse related designs. That is where I am hanging out right now.


Sounds stunning. Please publish a pic when complete?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> cookiequeen
> I am all in favor of a draft, if EVERYONE gets drafted. I find that at least somewhat fair. NO special favors for kids of the well-to-do. It would be nice never to need a Military BUT that will NEVER happen.
> At least we finally are getting to the point of dealing with Cuba amicably. Should have happened decades ago. It would be worrisome to have Cuba again as an Enemy and some foreign power may have an eye on that Island to get close to us. We cannot let that happen. Cuba used to be a Mecca for the moneyed crowd. Hope it can get at least close to that stage once again. The Cubans have suffered enough and for all too long.


Speaking of Cuba, I decided to take a wander around the net to see how things are over there after 53 years of rule by Fidel. I cautiously and optimistically suggest that things are improving for Cuban's people.

The following is an uplifting article with links to other interesting articles about Cuba at the bottom of the page:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/12/cuba-today-photos


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cuba reversed the effects of education system that favored the rich who sent their children to private schools over the poor children in the countryside. A brigade of teachers were enlisted to teach everyone. Now a 'poor' Cuba is among the most literate countries in the world. (Wickipedia has a simple article. Many others available.



Wombatnomore said:


> Speaking of Cuba, I decided to take a wander around the net to see how things are over there after 53 years of rule by Fidel. I cautiously and optimistically suggest that things are improving for Cuban's people.
> 
> The following is an uplifting article with links to other interesting articles about Cuba at the bottom of the page:
> 
> http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/12/cuba-today-photos


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Thanks, Nebs, for the education on the petrodollar and how our insatiable thirst for oil has contributed to havoc in the world. While I don't agree with all of your conclusions, it is clear that we Americans have acted badly and are happily ignorant of the bigger picture. As I've said, I tend to be an isolationist and would prefer to see the US pay more attention to our internal affairs and problems and less to maintaining the illusion of US exceptionalism and power. 

Having said that, it seems to me that instituting the petrodollar and associated banking systems was a solution to problems of the time. The world changes and we have had to respond to those changes over time. The common thread that runs through all your references is protection of our national interests (oil availability) above all else, but remember, the world is a complicated place and our presidents have had to respond to and balance many interests over the last 70 years. They didn't always get it right and none of them had a magic crystal ball with which to predict future consequences.

One thing I find interesting is that things began to fall apart in the early 70's following the OPEC oil embargo - led by the Saudi's pique over US support of Israel, that led to huge inflation. Regan responded to the recession that followed by slashing taxes based on the false policy of "trickle down" economics that we are still paying for today. Our economy was weakened and continues to suffer because conservatives refuse to recognize the basic fallacy of this policy. Over the last 30 years the flow of capital to the top has only exacerbated the weakening of our economy both at home and worldwide. If Bush really invaded Iraq in response to petrodollar and oil concerns, he still lied, lied, lied about it. One can argue the merits of his actions and motives, but that is in the past and we must focus forward. What to do about it?

If we are facing economic disaster, how can we protect ourselves? Remember, oil concerns and our obsession with protecting our sources has created no end of seemingly intractable problems. Obama has moved us toward more self-sufficiency. Good and bad. The cost to the environment will be devastating. He also has not taken a strong stand nor has he provided strong leadership on the issue of climate change which is the far bigger threat to our existence. This is undeniable, though right-wing extremists keep ratcheting up their denials and throw more and more money at thwarting honest discussion on the crisis. Sea levels are rising and the looming catastrophe is all too real. It's already too late to reverse so we need to plan the strategies we will need to deal with the worldwide demographic and economic changes facing us. Addressing the massive disruptions brought about by climate change will make problems with the petrodollar seem like trying to swat a pesky mosquito. It's high time we raised taxes on the wealthy and took steps to strengthen our economy and to do that we need to return power and voice to the American people. It's high time we stopped being distracted by ridiculous arguments about gay marriage and abortion and the fabricated war on Christianity that the right wing deliberately uses to draw focus away from our real problems. It's high time we paid attention to strengthening our own economy by throwing out the extremists in 2016.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Camacho said:


> I'll be back in the loop by some time next week. There was an open house today with a lot of offers. See you soon.


I hope that one of the offers is the one you want. It would be nice if everything fell into place. Best wishes!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think I've pretty well evidenced that what I said was true. I even avoided conservative web sites so I couldn't be called a conspiracy theorist. I didn't want to do this because its actually difficult to find sources that the left trusts, when it comes to things they don't want to talk about. I call it "willful ignorance".
> 
> Now, instead of looking at just one link and ripping it to shreds, go out and do your own research. This is stuff we should know about!
> 
> I'm done. I'm going to bed.


Nebraska, I am completely lost about what exactly you were trying to prove, but I will admit you know more about it than anyone else here does. Where do you get your energy?


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

DGreen said:


> The "police action" in Korea has been ongoing for how long, now?
> 
> Thanks for the clarification.


Officially, from 1950-53, but as we can see it hasn't really ended.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Viva DGreen.



DGreen said:


> Thanks, Nebs, for the education on the petrodollar and how our insatiable thirst for oil has contributed to havoc in the world. While I don't agree with all of your conclusions, it is clear that we Americans have acted badly and are happily ignorant of the bigger picture. As I've said, I tend to be an isolationist and would prefer to see the US pay more attention to our internal affairs and problems and less to maintaining the illusion of US exceptionalism and power.
> 
> Having said that, it seems to me that instituting the petrodollar and associated banking systems was a solution to problems of the time. The world changes and we have had to respond to those changes over time. The common thread that runs through all your references is protection of our national interests (oil availability) above all else, but remember, the world is a complicated place and our presidents have had to respond to and balance many interests over the last 70 years. They didn't always get it right and none of them had a magic crystal ball with which to predict future consequences.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sounds familiar. WWII appx 5 years. Afganistan 10 years and counting.



MaidInBedlam said:


> Officially, from 1950-53, but as we can see it hasn't really ended.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> Very admirable to me.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Nebraska, I am completely lost about what exactly you were trying to prove, but I will admit you know more about it than anyone else here does. Where do you get your energy?


I'd made a statement that the Saudis didn't have to fight because as part of the petrodollar agreement, the US had promised to defend them. I was immediately challenged. I posted a summary of events that had taken place with enough info for anyone to get started on research, and challenged those who did not know, to find out.

I knew that I could post links to thousands of articles that explained the history of the petrodollar, but that anything I posted would be rejected. It's very hard to find liberal sources that talk about these things because the liberals don't focus on things like this. They're focused on the social aspects of everything. My time for this stuff has become extremely limited. I figured it would be a waste of my precious time to search for links. If I could just get people to do their own research, they could believe what they found for themselves. But most people don't want to be told, something they don't know. They have preconceived ideas and information that doesn't fit those ideas is not welcome. When I said, "It's not theory, it's history", I expected that it would pique interest and people would go and find out. I was wrong. By my own weakness I felt defensive, so I spent the time when I should have been sleeping. I had two hours of sleep Tuesday night and three hours Thursday night, so I'm running out of energy very quickly. It would be nice if people bothered to look something up before they challenged me.

Both sides want to solve the problem, but disagree on how to do that. The propaganda machine diverts our attention from what's really going on and we argue back and forth on whatever issue they put before us. We argue about isis. We argue about Iraq. We argue about Russia. We argue about Ukraine. In reality, all of these things are pieces of a whole. We need to see how the pieces fit together. We say things like, " We should let the middle east fight their own wars". But we're the ones who brought the wars to them. They know that. That's why they hate us. We don't know that, because our media is controlled propaganda. We start the wars by training and arming rebels who will do our dirty work. The goal is to overturn any leader who does not comply. Then our propaganda team presents the issue as, these poor rebels are trying to overturn a viscious dictator. We must help them. This has happened over and over and over. And the US citizens are deceived into thinking these wars are to help these people. How do you think we'd feel if Russia started bombing us to help us overthrow our government? We wouldn't like it because we elected our government and we don't think we need to overthrow it. That's how the people in these other countries feel. We're not helping them. We're helping big oil companies and huge corporate conglomerates. It's all about oil, money and power. Innocent children are being killed in the hundreds of thousands. Our young men and women are dying in wars meant to secure the petrodollar and the billions in profits gained by those with power. Cui bono? Who benefits?


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Yes, it does.
> 
> Unfortunately, people often accept such statements at face value without consulting the BS Detector. Or even the Plausibility Meter. The republicans count on this when distributing their propaganda.


DGreen
ever notice how MUCH stuff the Republicans distribute? It is overwhelming and done with purpose. That way NOBODY will ever have or take the time to read it thoroughly or listen to it carefully and that is their way to get by with their constant lies, twists and turns and distortions.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Thanks, Nebs, for the education on the petrodollar and how our insatiable thirst for oil has contributed to havoc in the world. While I don't agree with all of your conclusions, it is clear that we Americans have acted badly and are happily ignorant of the bigger picture. As I've said, I tend to be an isolationist and would prefer to see the US pay more attention to our internal affairs and problems and less to maintaining the illusion of US exceptionalism and power.
> 
> Having said that, it seems to me that instituting the petrodollar and associated banking systems was a solution to problems of the time. The world changes and we have had to respond to those changes over time. The common thread that runs through all your references is protection of our national interests (oil availability) above all else, but remember, the world is a complicated place and our presidents have had to respond to and balance many interests over the last 70 years. They didn't always get it right and none of them had a magic crystal ball with which to predict future consequences.
> 
> ...


DGreen
yes, yes, yes.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> Cuba reversed the effects of education system that favored the rich who sent their children to private schools over the poor children in the countryside. A brigade of teachers were enlisted to teach everyone. Now a 'poor' Cuba is among the most literate countries in the world. (Wickipedia has a simple article. Many others available.


damemary
not only Cuba is generally better educated than we are, that is the case in many other countries as well and there is where the danger lurks for our future.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> I feel that we were wrong starting policing of the world. We have no right.


damemary
that behavior has created many enemies for us. Just think how well off everyone here could be had we put those monies and that effort into our own Nation. By trying to strengthen others, we weakened ourselves.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

KFN, thank you for the link and the education. While I may not totally agree with your conclusions, I certainly do appreciate your constant efforts to provide us with information.

I hope your DIL is doing well. I am sure everyone appreciates all the hard work you are doing to help them.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> ever notice how MUCH stuff the Republicans distribute? It is overwhelming and done with purpose. That way NOBODY will ever have or take the time to read it thoroughly or listen to it carefully and that is their way to get by with their constant lies, twists and turns and distortions.


You should take the time to educate yourself, so you won't sound foolish.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> yes, yes, yes.


Even the part where she said "Thanks for the education on the petrodollar."? She took the time to read it. Did you?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> KFN, thank you for the link and the education. While I may not totally agree with your conclusions, I certainly do appreciate your constant efforts to provide us with information.
> 
> I hope your DIL is doing well. I am sure everyone appreciates all the hard work you are doing to help them.


Your welcome! I don't care if anyone agrees with my conclusions. I'm just trying to give people background. People are always asking me why I think, what I think. Sometimes, my opinions are based upon stuff most people haven't heard. I seek knowledge and assume that others do as well.

Dil is at 21 weeks. Only 13 weeks to go. She's doing better than expected. They had expected to put her on bed rest at 20 weeks but she's doing so well, she can continue with the little that she does. She's getting bored because she's usually so active, but the way I look at it, is that were all sacrificing a little to bring these babies into the world. I'm getting used to my busy days, but look forward to having my nice, calm life back. I don't know when that'll happen though. I'm sure I'll be as busy or busier after the babies arrive. I can't imagine what our lives will be like.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> yes, yes, yes.


YES!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> KFN, thank you for the link and the education. While I may not totally agree with your conclusions, I certainly do appreciate your constant efforts to provide us with information.
> 
> I hope your DIL is doing well. I am sure everyone appreciates all the hard work you are doing to help them.


I AGREE! how is your dil doing? Is she still at home? She seems to be doing well and it is a very difficult time for her.

How is Max?


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Your welcome! I don't care if anyone agrees with my conclusions. I'm just trying to give people background. People are always asking me why I think, what I think. Sometimes, my opinions are based upon stuff most people haven't heard. I seek knowledge and assume that others do as well.
> 
> Dil is at 21 weeks. Only 13 weeks to go. She's doing better than expected. They had expected to put her on bed rest at 20 weeks but she's doing so well, she can continue with the little that she does. She's getting bored because she's usually so active, but the way I look at it, is that were all sacrificing a little to bring these babies into the world. I'm getting used to my busy days, but look forward to having my nice, calm life back. I don't know when that'll happen though. I'm sure I'll be as busy or busier after the babies arrive. I can't imagine what our lives will be like.


I think after the babies safely arrive, you will most likely be busier than you are now!!! Please do take some time for yourself, that is so important, for you and the rest of your family. Cindy


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You should take the time to educate yourself, so you won't sound foolish.


Knitter from Nebraska
looks like you are in the mood of picking a fight, won't get it.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Even the part where she said "Thanks for the education on the petrodollar."? She took the time to read it. Did you?


Knitter from Nebraska
I am now playing your game. See how that sits with you.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> looks like you are in the mood of picking a fight, won't get it.


And I thought you were just in a mood to insult. Thought I'd return the favor so you'd see what its like, being on the receiving end.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Interesting source of some right wing propaganda on just about everything. Talk about gloom and doom. I think I will go stick my head in the oven.

http://www.ftmdaily.com/about :lol:


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

None of the provided links have info corroborating the claim that the US has signed or agreed to anything about fighting Saudi Arabia's wars for it, other than providing them with planes, etc. for *their* use.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Oops!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> None of the provided links have info corroborating the claim that the US has signed or agreed to anything about fighting Saudi Arabia's wars for it, other than providing them with planes, etc. for *their* use.


Thank you! Military agreements and cooperation and even arms sales are one thing - the statement made was a gross exaggeration and plainly false. We all need to be mindful about what is fact and what is opinion, what is documented and what is conjecture.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Interesting source of some right wing propaganda on just about everything. Talk about gloom and doom. I think I will go stick my head in the oven.
> 
> http://www.ftmdaily.com/about :lol:


Cheeky Blighter
you see, the GOP puts out stuff and repeats it in many different ways in hopes that some of it even though it is totally non-factual, will stick. They are so angry that President Obama has been able to achieve much even though the GOP crossed him continuously.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Cheeky Blighter
> you see, the GOP puts out stuff and repeats it in many different ways in hopes that some of it even though it is totally non-factual, will stick. They are so angry that President Obama has been able to achieve much even though the GOP crossed him continuously.


If the GOP et al put more of their energy into genuinely becoming an effective opposition to the government, America may just well be in a better place. My politics teacher left me with one major truth and that is that _a government is only as good as it's opposition._

Australia has the same problem. It's all about political posturing and putting the party first when it should be about putting the people of Australia first. It's truly mind boggling that the supposed pillars of the community who are voted into political office all too often crumble as soon as they are. I'm sick of it.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> None of the provided links have info corroborating the claim that the US has signed or agreed to anything about fighting Saudi Arabia's wars for it, other than providing them with planes, etc. for *their* use.


Really? Here's a quote from the Huff Post article: "The essence of the deal was that the US would agree to military sales and DEFENSE of Saudi Arabia in return for all trade being denominated in US dollars.".
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/petrodollar-us-saudi-policy_b_6245914.html

The Daily Kos, under the heading of " What is the petrodollar?", uses the exact same quote. I guess they share sources.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/27/1360532/-The-Slow-Death-of-the-Petrodollar

Here's a quote from The New Left article: "In return, the US offered to MILITARILY DEFEND not so much Saudi Arabia, but the horrifically repressive monarchy that ruled it.
http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/article_comments/iran_and_the_petrodollar_threat_to_u.s._empire


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Thank you! Military agreements and cooperation and even arms sales are one thing - the statement made was a gross exaggeration and plainly false. We all need to be mindful about what is fact and what is opinion, what is documented and what is conjecture.


I thought you read them. What about your comment, "Thanks for the education on the petrodollar."? That sounded like you'd read the articles.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Cheeky Blighter
> you see, the GOP puts out stuff and repeats it in many different ways in hopes that some of it even though it is totally non-factual, will stick. They are so angry that President Obama has been able to achieve much even though the GOP crossed him continuously.


What has he achieved? We're still at war (more than before, in fact). We still have high unemployment. Inflation is high, the cost of goods and services keeps rising. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The aca is great for people who get their insurance at little or no cost. But not so much for the middle class who has to pay for it. Which reminds me of the disappearing middle class. SEVEN years is a long time, and he's very little to show for it. I know he keeps telling us he's done a lot, but what?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> If the GOP et al put more of their energy into genuinely becoming an effective opposition to the government, America may just well be in a better place. My politics teacher left me with one major truth and that is that _a government is only as good as it's opposition._
> 
> Australia has the same problem. It's all about political posturing and putting the party first when it should be about putting the people of Australia first. It's truly mind boggling that the supposed pillars of the community who are voted into political office all too often crumble as soon as they are. I'm sick of it.


I agree with you about the GOP. I don't see how people can be so stupid, unless it's intentional. And your politics teacher was right. "A government is only as good as it's opposition."


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What has he achieved? We're still at war (more than before, in fact). We still have high unemployment. Inflation is high, the cost of goods and services keeps rising. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The aca is great for people who get their insurance at little or no cost. But not so much for the middle class who has to pay for it. Which reminds me of the disappearing middle class. SEVEN years is a long time, and he's very little to show for it. I know he keeps telling us he's done a lot, but what?


Don't forget where laws are enacted. What has Congress done in the past 6 years?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I thought you read them. What about your comment, "Thanks for the education on the petrodollar."? That sounded like you'd read the articles.


I did.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

sumpleby wrote:
None of the provided links have info corroborating the claim that the US has signed or agreed to anything about fighting Saudi Arabia's wars for it, other than providing them with planes, etc. for *their* use.

Really? Here's a quote from the Huff Post article: "The essence of the deal was that the US would agree to military sales and DEFENSE of Saudi Arabia in return for all trade being denominated in US dollars.".
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/petrodollar-us-saudi-policy_b_6245914.html

The Daily Kos, under the heading of " What is the petrodollar?", uses the exact same quote. I guess they share sources.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/27/1360532/-The-Slow-Death-of-the-Petrodollar

Here's a quote from The New Left article: "In return, the US offered to MILITARILY DEFEND not so much Saudi Arabia, but the horrifically repressive monarchy that ruled it.
http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/article_comments/iran_and_the_petrodollar_th...

Knitter from Nebraska

KFN I read all your links and I still do not understand what you think you are proving. The petrodollar has changed radically and what it is today is not at all what it was originally and it's meaning is still evolving. All countries who buy oil do so in a variety of exchange from gold to basic commodities to the euro. Do you propose then that all countries who buy their oil from Saudi Arabia, other OPEC nations, Venezuela, Canada etc. have had to make deals to offer military support to those countries? It seems as though you have lost track of where you were going with this or never had a clear objective to begin with. Please explain yourself.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What has he achieved? We're still at war (more than before, in fact). We still have high unemployment. Inflation is high, the cost of goods and services keeps rising. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The aca is great for people who get their insurance at little or no cost. But not so much for the middle class who has to pay for it. Which reminds me of the disappearing middle class. SEVEN years is a long time, and he's very little to show for it. I know he keeps telling us he's done a lot, but what?


In Defense of Obama
The Nobel Prize-winning economist, once one of the presidents most notable critics, on why Obama is a historic success

BY PAUL KRUGMAN October 8, 2014
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President Obama signing the Affordable Care Act. In our new cover story, Paul Krugman explores the president's successes. Win McNamee/Getty
When it comes to Barack Obama, I've always been out of sync. Back in 2008, when many liberals were wildly enthusiastic about his candidacy and his press was strongly favorable, I was skeptical. I worried that he was naive, that his talk about transcending the political divide was a dangerous illusion given the unyielding extremism of the modern American right. Furthermore, it seemed clear to me that, far from being the transformational figure his supporters imagined, he was rather conventional-minded: Even before taking office, he showed signs of paying far too much attention to what some of us would later take to calling Very Serious People, people who regarded cutting budget deficits and a willingness to slash Social Security as the very essence of political virtue.

SIDEBAR

Hope and Change Index: 6 Years of Progress, By the Numbers »
And I wasn't wrong. Obama was indeed naive: He faced scorched-earth Republican opposition from Day One, and it took him years to start dealing with that opposition realistically. Furthermore, he came perilously close to doing terrible things to the U.S. safety net in pursuit of a budget Grand Bargain; we were saved from significant cuts to Social Security and a rise in the Medicare age only by Republican greed, the GOP's unwillingness to make even token concessions.

But now the shoe is on the other foot: Obama faces trash talk left, right and center  literally  and doesn't deserve it. Despite bitter opposition, despite having come close to self-inflicted disaster, Obama has emerged as one of the most consequential and, yes, successful presidents in American history. His health reform is imperfect but still a huge step forward  and it's working better than anyone expected. Financial reform fell far short of what should have happened, but it's much more effective than you'd think. Economic management has been half-crippled by Republican obstruction, but has nonetheless been much better than in other advanced countries. And environmental policy is starting to look like it could be a major legacy.

I'll go through those achievements shortly. First, however, let's take a moment to talk about the current wave of Obama-bashing. All Obama-bashing can be divided into three types. One, a constant of his time in office, is the onslaught from the right, which has never stopped portraying him as an Islamic atheist Marxist Kenyan. Nothing has changed on that front, and nothing will.

Sean Gallup/Getty
There's a different story on the left, where you now find a significant number of critics decrying Obama as, to quote Cornel West, someone who ''posed as a progressive and turned out to be counterfeit.'' They're outraged that Wall Street hasn't been punished, that income inequality remains so high, that ''neoliberal'' economic policies are still in place. All of this seems to rest on the belief that if only Obama had put his eloquence behind a radical economic agenda, he could somehow have gotten that agenda past all the political barriers that have con- strained even his much more modest efforts. It's hard to take such claims seriously.

Finally, there's the constant belittling of Obama from mainstream pundits and talking heads. Turn on cable news (although I wouldn't advise it) and you'll hear endless talk about a rudderless, stalled administration, maybe even about a failed presidency. Such talk is often buttressed by polls showing that Obama does, indeed, have an approval rating that is very low by historical standards.

But this bashing is misguided even in its own terms  and in any case, it's focused on the wrong thing.

Yes, Obama has a low approval rating compared with earlier presidents. But there are a number of reasons to believe that presidential approval doesn't mean the same thing that it used to: There is much more party-sorting (in which Republicans never, ever have a good word for a Democratic president, and vice versa), the public is negative on politicians in general, and so on. Obviously the midterm election hasn't happened yet, but in a year when Republicans have a huge structural advantage  Democrats are defending a disproportionate number of Senate seats in deep-red states  most analyses suggest that control of the Senate is in doubt, with Democrats doing considerably better than they were supposed to. This isn't what you'd expect to see if a failing president were dragging his party down.

More important, however, polls  or even elections  are not the measure of a president. High office shouldn't be about putting points on the electoral scoreboard, it should be about changing the country for the better. Has Obama done that? Do his achievements look likely to endure? The answer to both questions is yes.

HEALTH CARE

When Obama signed the Affordable Care Act, an excited Joe Biden whispered audibly, ''This is a big fucking deal!'' He was right.

SIDEBAR

Obamacare: It's Working! »
The enactment and implementation of the Affordable Care Act, a.k.a. Obamacare, has been a perils-of-Pauline experience. When an upset in the special election to replace Ted Kennedy cost Democrats their 60-vote Senate majority, health reform had to be rescued with fancy legislative footwork. Then it survived a Supreme Court challenge only thanks to a surprise display of conscience by John Roberts, who nonetheless opened a loophole that has allowed Republican-controlled states to deny coverage to millions of Americans. Then technical difficulties with the HealthCare.gov website seemed to threaten disaster. But here we are, most of the way through the first full year of reform's implementation, and it's working better than even the optimists expected.

We won't have the full data on 2014 until next year's census report, but multiple independent surveys show a sharp drop in the number of Americans without health insurance, probably around 10 million, a number certain to grow greatly over the next two years as more people realize that the program is available and penalties for failure to sign up increase.

It's true that the Affordable Care Act will still leave millions of people in America uninsured. For one thing, it was never intended to cover undocumented immigrants, who are counted in standard measures of the uninsured. Furthermore, millions of low-income Americans will slip into the loophole Roberts created: They were supposed to be covered by a federally funded expansion of Medicaid, but some states are blocking that expansion out of sheer spite. Finally, unlike Social Security and Medicare, for which almost everyone is automatically eligible, Obamacare requires beneficiaries to prove their eligibility for Medicaid or choose and then pay for a subsidized private plan. Inevitably, some people will fall through the cracks.

Still, Obamacare means a huge improvement in the quality of life for tens of millions of Americans  not just better care, but greater financial security. And even those who were already insured have gained both security and freedom, because they now have a guarantee of coverage if they lose or change jobs.

What about the costs? Here, too, the news is better than anyone expected. In 2014, premiums on the insurance policies offered through the Obamacare exchanges were well below those originally projected by the Congressional Budget Office, and the available data indicates a mix of modest increases and actual reductions for 2015  which is very good in a sector where premiums normally increase five percent or more each year. More broadly, overall health spending has slowed substantially, with the cost-control features of the ACA probably deserving some of the credit.

In other words, health reform is looking like a major policy success story. It's a program that is coming in ahead of schedule  and below budget  costing less, and doing more to reduce overall health costs than even its supporters predicted.

Of course, this success story makes nonsense of right-wing predictions of catastrophe. Beyond that, the good news on health costs refutes conservative orthodoxy. It's a fixed idea on the right, sometimes echoed by ''centrist'' commentators, that the only way to limit health costs is to dismantle guarantees of adequate care  for example, that the only way to control Medicare costs is to replace Medicare as we know it, a program that covers major medical expenditures, with vouchers that may or may not be enough to buy adequate insurance. But what we're actually seeing is what looks like significant cost control via a laundry list of small changes to how we pay for care, with the basic guarantee of adequate coverage not only intact but widened to include Americans of all ages.

It's worth pointing out that some criticisms of Obamacare from the left are also looking foolish. Obamacare is a system partly run through private insurance companies (although expansion of Medicaid is also a very important piece). And some on the left were outraged, arguing that the program would do more to raise profits in the medical-industrial complex than it would to protect American families.

You can still argue that single-payer would have covered more people at lower cost  in fact, I would. But that option wasn't on the table; only a system that appeased insurers and reassured the public that not too much would change was politically feasible. And it's working reasonably well: Competition among insurers who can no longer deny insurance to those who need it most is turning out to be pretty effective. This isn't the health care system you would have designed from scratch, or if you could ignore special-interest politics, but it's doing the job.

And this big improvement in American society is almost surely here to stay. The conservative health care nightmare  the one that led Republicans to go all-out against Bill Clinton's health plans in 1993 and Obamacare more recently  is that once health care for everyone, or almost everyone, has been put in place, it will be very hard to undo, because too many voters would have a stake in the system. That's exactly what is happening. Republicans are still going through the motions of attacking Obamacare, but the passion is gone. They're even offering mealymouthed assurances that people won't lose their new benefits. By the time Obama leaves office, there will be tens of millions of Americans who have benefited directly from health reform  and that will make it almost impossible to reverse. Health reform has made America a different, better place.

Susan Walsh/AP
FINANCIAL REFORM

Let's be clear: The financial crisis should have been followed by a drastic crackdown on Wall Street abuses, and it wasn't. No important figures have gone to jail; bad banks and other financial institutions, from Citigroup to Goldman, were bailed out with few strings attached; and there has been nothing like the wholesale restructuring and reining in of finance that took place in the 1930s. Obama bears a considerable part of the blame for this disappointing response. It was his Treasury secretary and his attorney general who chose to treat finance with kid gloves.

It's easy, however, to take this disappointment too far. You often hear Dodd- Frank, the financial-reform bill that Obama signed into law in 2010, dismissed as toothless and meaningless. It isn't. It may not prevent the next financial crisis, but there's a good chance that it will at least make future crises less severe and easier to deal with.

Dodd-Frank is a complicated piece of legislation, but let me single out three really important sections.

First, the law gives a special council the ability to designate ''systemically important financial institutions'' (SIFIs)  that is, institutions that could create a crisis if they were to fail  and place such institutions under extra scrutiny and regulation of things like the amount of capital they are required to maintain to cover possible losses. This provision has been derided as ineffectual or worse  during the 2012 presidential campaign, Mitt Romney claimed that by announcing that some firms were SIFIs, the government was effectively guaranteeing that they would be bailed out, which he called ''the biggest kiss that's been given to New York banks I've ever seen.''

But it's easy to prove that this is nonsense: Just look at how institutions behave when they're designated as SIFIs. Are they pleased, because they're now guaranteed? Not a chance. Instead, they're furious over the extra regulation, and in some cases fight bitterly to avoid being placed on the list. Right now, for example, MetLife is making an all-out effort to be kept off the SIFI list; this effort demonstrates that we're talking about real regulation here, and that financial interests don't like it.

Another key provision in Dodd-Frank is ''orderly liquidation authority,'' which gives the government the legal right to seize complex financial institutions in a crisis. This is a bigger deal than you might think. We have a well-established procedure for seizing ordinary banks that get in trouble and putting them into receivership; in fact, it happens all the time. But what do you do when something like Citigroup is on the edge, and its failure might have devastating consequences? Back in 2009, Joseph Stiglitz and yours truly, among others, wanted to temporarily nationalize one or two major financial players, for the same reasons the FDIC takes over failing banks, to keep the institutions running but avoid bailing out stockholders and management. We got a chance to make that case directly to the president. But we lost the argument, and one key reason was Treasury's claim that it lacked the necessary legal authority. I still think it could have found a way, but in any case that won't be an issue next time.

A third piece of Dodd-Frank is the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. That's Elizabeth Warren's brainchild, an agency dedicated to protecting Americans against the predatory lending that has pushed so many into financial distress, and played an important role in the crisis. Warren's idea was that such a stand-alone agency would more effectively protect the public than agencies that were supposed to protect consumers, but saw their main job as propping up banks. And by all accounts the new agency is in fact doing much more to crack down on predatory practices than anything we used to see.

There's much more in the financial reform, including a number of pieces we don't have enough information to evaluate yet. But there's enough evidence even now to say that there's a reason Wall Street  which used to give an approximately equal share of money to both parties but now overwhelmingly supports Republicans  tried so hard to kill financial reform, and is still trying to emasculate Dodd-Frank. This may not be the full overhaul of finance we should have had, and it's not as major as health reform. But it's a lot better than nothing.

THE ECONOMY

Barack Obama might not have been elected president without the 2008 financial crisis; he certainly wouldn't have had the House majority and the brief filibuster-proof Senate majority that made health reform possible. So it's very disappointing that six years into his presidency, the U.S. economy is still a long way from being fully recovered.

Before we ask why, however, we should note that things could have been worse. In fact, in other times and places they have been worse. Make no mistake about it  the devastation wrought by the financial crisis was terrible, with real income falling 5.5 percent. But that's actually not as bad as the ''typical'' experience after financial crises: Even in advanced countries, the median post-crisis decline in per- capita real GDP is seven percent. Recovery has been slow: It took almost six years for the United States to regain pre-crisis average income. But that was actually a bit faster than the historical average.

Or compare our performance with that of the European Union. Unemployment in America rose to a horrifying 10 percent in 2009, but it has come down sharply in the past few years. It's true that some of the apparent improvement probably reflects discouraged workers dropping out, but there has been substantial real progress. Meanwhile, Europe has had barely any job recovery at all, and unemployment is still in double digits. Compared with our counterparts across the Atlantic, we haven't done too badly.

Did Obama's policies contribute to this less-awful performance? Yes, without question. You'd never know it listening to the talking heads, but there's overwhelming consensus among economists that the Obama stimulus plan helped mitigate the worst of the slump. For example, when a panel of economic experts was asked whether the U.S. unemployment rate was lower at the end of 2010 than it would have been without the stimulus, 82 percent said yes, only two percent said no.

Still, couldn't the U.S. economy have done a lot better? Of course. The original stimulus should have been both bigger and longer. And after Republicans won the House in 2010, U.S. policy took a sharp turn in the wrong direction. Not only did the stimulus fade out, but sequestration led to further steep cuts in federal spending, exactly the wrong thing to do in a still-depressed economy.

We can argue about how much Obama could have altered this literally depressing turn of events. He could have pushed for a larger, more extended stimulus, perhaps with provisions for extra aid that would have kicked in if unemployment stayed high. (This isn't 20-20 hindsight, because a number of economists, myself included, pleaded for more aggressive measures from the beginning.) He arguably let Republicans blackmail him over the debt ceiling in 2011, leading to the sequester. But this is all kind of iffy.

The bottom line on Obama's economic policy should be that what he did helped the economy, and that while enormous economic and human damage has taken place on his watch, the United States coped with the financial crisis better than most countries facing comparable crises have managed. He should have done more and better, but the narrative that portrays his policies as a simple failure is all wrong.

While America remains an incredibly unequal society, and we haven't seen anything like the New Deal's efforts to narrow income gaps, Obama has done more to limit inequality than he gets credit for. The rich are paying higher taxes, thanks to the partial expiration of the Bush tax cuts and the special taxes on high incomes that help pay for Obamacare; the Congressional Budget Office estimates the average tax rate of the top one percent at 33.6 percent in 2013, up from 28.1 percent in 2008. Meanwhile, the financial aid in Obamacare  expanded Medicaid, subsidies to help lower-income households pay insurance premiums  goes disproportionately to less-well-off Americans. When conservatives accuse Obama of redistributing income, they're not completely wrong  and liberals should give him credit.

THE ENVIRONMENT

In 2009, it looked, briefly, as if we might be about to get real on the issue of climate change. A fairly comprehensive bill establishing a cap-and-trade system to limit greenhouse-gas emissions actually passed the House, and visions of global action danced like sugarplums in environmentalists' heads. But the legislation stalled in the Senate, and Republican victory in the 2010 midterms put an end to that fantasy. Ever since, the only way forward has been through executive action based on existing legislation, which is a poor substitute for the new laws we need.

SIDEBAR

The Turning Point: New Hope for the Climate »
But as with financial reform, acknowledging the inadequacy of what has been done doesn't mean that nothing has been achieved. Saying that Obama has been the best environmental president in a long time is actually faint praise, since George W. Bush was terrible and Bill Clinton didn't get much done. Still, it's true, and there's reason to hope for a lot more over the next two years.

Doug Mills/The New York Times
First of all, there has been much more progress on the use of renewable energy than most people realize. The share of U.S. energy provided by wind and solar has grown dramatically since Obama took office. True, it's still only a small fraction of the total, and some of the growth in renewables reflects technological progress, especially in solar panels, that would have happened whoever was in office. But federal policies, including loan guarantees and tax credits, have played an important role.

Nor is it just about renewables; Obama has also taken big steps on energy conservation, especially via fuel-efficiency standards, that have flown, somewhat mysteriously, under the radar. And it's not just cars. In 2011, the administration announced the first-ever fuel-efficiency standards for medium and heavy vehicles, and in February it announced that these standards would get even tougher for models sold after 2018. As a way to curb green house-gas emissions, these actions, taken together, are comparable in importance to proposed action on power plants.

Which brings us to the latest initiative. Because there's no chance of getting climate-change legislation through Congress for the foreseeable future, Obama has turned to the EPA's existing power to regulate pollution  power that the Supreme Court has affirmed extends to emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases. And this past summer, the EPA announced proposed rules that would require a large reduction over time in such emissions from power plants. You might say that such plants are only a piece of the problem, but they're a large piece  CO2 from coal-burning power plants is in fact a big part of the problem, so if the EPA goes through with anything like the proposed rule, it will be a major step. Again, not nearly enough, and we'll have to do a lot more soon, or face civilization-threatening disaster. But what Obama has done is far from trivial.

NATIONAL SECURITY

So far, i've been talking about Obama's positive achievements, which have been much bigger than his critics understand. I do, however, need to address one area that has left some early Obama supporters bitterly disappointed: his record on national security policy. Let's face it  many of his original enthusiasts favored him so strongly over Hillary Clinton because she supported the Iraq War and he didn't. They hoped he would hold the people who took us to war on false pretenses accountable, that he would transform American foreign policy, and that he would drastically curb the reach of the national security state.

SIDEBAR

Obama Vs. The Hawks »
None of that happened. Obama's team, as far as we can tell, never even considered going after the deceptions that took us to Baghdad, perhaps because they believed that this would play very badly at a time of financial crisis. On overall foreign policy, Obama has been essentially a normal post-Vietnam president, reluctant to commit U.S. ground troops and eager to extract them from ongoing commitments, but quite willing to bomb people considered threatening to U.S. interests. And he has defended the prerogatives of the NSA and the surveillance state in general.

Could and should he have been different? The truth is that I have no special expertise here; as an ordinary concerned citizen, I worry about the precedent of allowing what amount to war crimes to go not just unpunished but uninvestigated, even while appreciating that a modern version of the 1970s Church committee hearings on CIA abuses might well have been a political disaster, and undermined the policy achievements I've tried to highlight. What I would say is that even if Obama is just an ordinary president on national security issues, that's a huge improvement over what came before and what we would have had if John McCain or Mitt Romney had won. It's hard to get excited about a policy of not going to war gratuitously, but it's a big deal compared with the alternative.

SOCIAL CHANGE

In 2004, social issues, along with national security, were cudgels the right used to bludgeon liberals  I like to say that Bush won re-election by posing as America's defender against gay married terrorists. Ten years later, and the scene is transformed: Democrats have turned these social issues  especially women's rights  against Republicans; gay marriage has been widely legalized with approval or at least indifference from the wider public. We have, in a remarkably short stretch of time, become a notably more tolerant, open-minded nation.

Barack Obama has been more a follower than a leader on these issues. But at least he has been willing to follow the country's new open-mindedness. We shouldn't take this for granted. Before the Obama presidency, Democrats were in a kind of reflexive cringe on social issues, acting as if the religious right had far more power than it really does and ignoring the growing constituency on the other side. It's easy to imagine that if someone else had been president these past six years, Democrats would still be cringing as if it were 2004. Thankfully, they aren't. And the end of the cringe also, I'd argue, helped empower them to seek real change on substantive issues from health reform to the environment. Which brings me back to domestic issues.

As you can see, there's a theme running through each of the areas of domestic policy I've covered. In each case, Obama delivered less than his supporters wanted, less than the country arguably deserved, but more than his current detractors acknowledge. The extent of his partial success ranges from the pretty good to the not-so-bad to the ugly. Health reform looks pretty good, especially in historical perspective  remember, even Social Security, in its original FDR version, only covered around half the workforce. Financial reform is, I'd argue, not so bad  it's not the second coming of Glass-Steagall, but there's a lot more protection against runaway finance than anyone except angry Wall Streeters seems to realize. Economic policy wasn't enough to avoid a very ugly period of high unemployment, but Obama did at least mitigate the worst.

And as far as climate policy goes, there's reason for hope, but we'll have to see.

Am I damning with faint praise? Not at all. This is what a successful presidency looks like. No president gets to do everything his supporters expected him to. FDR left behind a reformed nation, but one in which the wealthy retained a lot of power and privilege. On the other side, for all his anti-government rhetoric, Reagan left the core institutions of the New Deal and the Great Society in place. I don't care about the fact that Obama hasn't lived up to the golden dreams of 2008, and I care even less about his approval rating. I do care that he has, when all is said and done, achieved a lot. That is, as Joe Biden didn't quite say, a big deal.

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/in-defense-of-obama-20141008#ixzz3TqhQkAag 
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook

Below is a list of some of Obamas more important accomplishments since the November elections, in chronological order, thanks in part to Mother Jones.

November 10: Obama asks the FCC to adopt tough Net Neutrality rules. As The New York Times reported at the time:

In his most direct effort yet to influence the debate about the Internets future, President Obama said on Monday that a free and open Internet was as critical to Americans lives as electricity and telephone service and should be regulated like those utilities to protect consumers.
November 15 to February 15, 2015: Open-enrollment for Obamacare begins, exceeding all expectations. NBC News reports that a new survey shows More than 10 million people got covered by health insurance over the past year, bringing the rate of uninsured down from 17.7 percent to 12.4 percent.

The Obama administration says just under 7 million people signed up for private insurance, often with federal subsidies, on the new exchanges over the past year. They expect 9 million to do so this year.
According to another article on NBC, 2.5 million people have signed up on the exchanges as of December 12th of this year.
November 20: As Mother Jones reports, Obama concluded a climate deal with China that was not only important in its own right, but has since been widely credited with jump-starting progress at the Lima talks. The New York Times elaborated reporting:

The historic announcement by President Obama and President Xi Jinping of China that they will commit to targets for cuts in their nations carbon emissions has fundamentally shifted the global politics of climate change. The agreement has given a fresh jolt of optimism to negotiations aimed at reaching a new international climate treaty next year in Paris, where the American and Chinese targets are expected to be the heart of the deal.
November 20: Obama throws a lifeline to over five million undocumented immigrants through the use of expansive executive actions protecting them from the threat of deportation. As we reported at the time,

Basically, what the President is proposing is an extension of his earlier policy directive known as the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals Initiative that directed the Department of Homeland Security to exercise prosecutorial discretion as appropriate to ensure that enforcement resources are not expended on low priority cases, such as individuals who came to the United States as children.

What President Obama proposed Thursday night is temporary relief from deportation to specific categories of undocumented immigrants if they have been in America for more than five years;  have children who are American citizens or legal residents; if [they] register, pass a criminal background check, and [are] willing to pay [their] fair share of taxes.
November 26: Obama celebrated Thanksgiving week by signing off on a new EPA rule that significantly limits ozone emissions. The Washington Post reported at the time that:

The Obama administration on Wednesday announced plans to tighten restrictions on smog-causing ozone, a move that will address a major cause of respiratory illness for millions of Americans. 

Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Gina McCarthy cited ozones damaging effects on children and the elderly in moving to toughen limits on the pollutant for the first time since 2008. Ground-level ozone, a respiratory irritant that derives from fossil-fuel burning, is linked to asthmatic attacks and other ailments and is the cause of code red respiratory warnings common to Washington and other urban areas during the summer months. http://samuel-warde.com/.../10-major-accomplishments-by-obama-since-the-mid-term-elections/


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree with you about the GOP. I don't see how people can be so stupid, unless it's intentional. And your politics teacher was right. "A government is only as good as it's opposition."


Knitter from Nebraska
unemployment is at 5.5% - how about dem apples? 
as to the Teacher's remark: the opposition today stinks to high heaven. They have done diddlysquat in over 6 years and we are still paying them royally. Time for us to kick XXXX


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Below is a list of some of Obamas more important accomplishments since the November elections, in chronological order, thanks in part to Mother Jones.
> 
> November 10: Obama asks the FCC to adopt tough Net Neutrality rules. As The New York Times reported at the time:
> 
> ...


Cheeky Blighter
I admire your stamina trying to educate some folks. Their Elevator has reached the top long ago. I thank you for your postings, they fill in gaps in my library. Let's face it many true Americans are still fighting for their rights and the GOP does not want rainbow people to remain here or come here. They are scared to death of the FACES of our Nation in the future and they should be, they have been 
ugly towards our people of color. Huck


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Cheeky Blighter
> I admire your stamina trying to educate some folks. Their Elevator has reached the top long ago. I thank you for your postings, they fill in gaps in my library. Let's face it many true Americans are still fighting for their rights and the GOP does not want rainbow people to remain here or come here. They are scared to death of the FACES of our Nation in the future and they should be, they have been
> ugly towards our people of color. Huck


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> Don't forget where laws are enacted. What has Congress done in the past 6 years?


I agree, but that wasn't the challenge. Congress is a whole other issue. And besides, one doesn't have to pass new laws to improve conditions or end wars.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> sumpleby wrote:
> None of the provided links have info corroborating the claim that the US has signed or agreed to anything about fighting Saudi Arabia's wars for it, other than providing them with planes, etc. for *their* use.
> 
> Really? Here's a quote from the Huff Post article: "The essence of the deal was that the US would agree to military sales and DEFENSE of Saudi Arabia in return for all trade being denominated in US dollars.".
> ...


The petrodollar did not change or evolve. Countries have just chosen not to abide with it. From what I've read, Saudi Arabia was promised defense. The other OPEC countries were offered "similar" deals. I've not discovered what those deals were.

Where have I lost track? I said that the petrodollar deal promised to defend Saudi Arabia from her enemies. I showed that. Everything else has been to address challenges.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> In Defense of Obama
> The Nobel Prize-winning economist, once one of the presidents most notable critics, on why Obama is a historic success
> 
> BY PAUL KRUGMAN October 8, 2014
> ...


WAAAAY TOO MANY WORDS! I didn't read all of it but skimmed it.

I addressed the aca. As I said, its great for those who get their insurance at low or reduced costs. Not so much for people whose premiums have doubled or tripled, or for the middle class who foots the bill.

If you want to talk about the financial crisis, don't forget that quantitative easing has played a big part in the destruction of the petrodollar. Creating money out of thin air has inflated the dollar, and cheated every one of us, in addition to those in other countries. And in case you weren't aware of it, every time the government releases its figures on how well the economy is doing, keep in mind that they changed the way they calculate the figures. Using the formulas that have been used for years, our economy has not improved. Unemployment is up, not down. Inflation is closer to 10% than the 2 or 2.5 that the government claims. Obama did not change the way things are calculated. That was changed in the 80s. But the government used these "adjusted" figures to deceive us into thinking things have improved, when they haven't. Ask anyone if their income has kept up with inflation. Ask them if the costs of their food and utilities have gone down. They'll tell you that everything has gone up, over and over.

Shadow Stats runs the numbers using the old method of calculation. If you want to know how our economy is really doing, read this.http://www.shadowstats.com/article/no-438-public-comment-on-inflation-measurement
He explains what's happened and shows you the real figures.

You can talk about Dodd Frank or Glass Steagle but the fact is that obama has done nothing to protect us from the bankers who have gambled everything. The big omnibus bill he signed says that the taxpayers will be on the hook for the derivatives gambling that's been taking place. That will make the crash in 08, look like peanuts! We're talking quadrillions. That's more money than even exists. And they put OUR guarantee on it.

So with all the words you've posted, I still don't see where he's done much.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> unemployment is at 5.5% - how about dem apples?
> as to the Teacher's remark: the opposition today stinks to high heaven. They have done diddlysquat in over 6 years and we are still paying them royally. Time for us to kick XXXX


If unemployment were calculated the way it had always been calculated before, the actual numbers would show unemployment closer to 25%.
http://www.shadowstats.com/ But by fixing the numbers, they can convince people that everything is rosy. Is it rosy for you and the people you know?

I agree with you about the reps, but the dems weren't any better. We should kick them all to the curb.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What has he achieved? We're still at war (more than before, in fact). We still have high unemployment. Inflation is high, the cost of goods and services keeps rising. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The aca is great for people who get their insurance at little or no cost. But not so much for the middle class who has to pay for it. Which reminds me of the disappearing middle class. SEVEN years is a long time, and he's very little to show for it. I know he keeps telling us he's done a lot, but what?


How do you figure we are more at war than when Obama took office?

We DO NOT still have high unemployment. Even if you insist that the jobs are not real, unemployment when Bush left was something like 10%. And it was HIS FAULT! The improvement is marked.

Inflation is high? Are you crazy?

"The latest inflation rate for the United States is -0.1% through the 12 months ended January 2015 as published by the US government on February 26, 2015." Official US Govervnment figures. Of course, we all know what you think of US Government figures, so I expect a challenge on that.

As for the ACA - you are conveniently ignoring the fact that many who were uninsured before are now paying SOMETHING for coverage. Before the ACA you and I paid through the nose for people to get care in the ER. For lousy care. As a liberal, I also want to go on record as supporting the cost to you and me for what is every human's right to medical care. Yes, liberal. Yes, progressive. Which is what the rest of the world does and it works. Call it what you want - I will defend it on humanitarian grounds if for no other reason. It doesn't go far enough. We should have a single payer system but Obama got the best deal he could even if he had to climb in bed with the insurance companies.

The middle class IS disappearing and you're blaming Obama? It is the republican war on the middle class, taxing them to death to give to the wealthy along with their stated objective to kill unions that is destroying the middle class. Let me refer you to a thread that appeared here some time ago called "Income Inequality - It's Not What You Think it Is" and watch it. Explains a lot and it is absolutely, undeniably a result of REGANOMICS. The trickle-down myth at work. NOT anything Obama did or anything Obama could possibly fix, given the economy he inherited.

Open YOUR eyes.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We all sound 'foolish' to someone else.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You should take the time to educate yourself, so you won't sound foolish.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> WAAAAY TOO MANY WORDS! I didn't read all of it but skimmed it.
> 
> I addressed the aca. As I said, its great for those who get their insurance at low or reduced costs. Not so much for people whose premiums have doubled or tripled, or for the middle class who foots the bill.
> 
> ...


You love the sound of your own voice or in this case the posts you make that make no sense and then you don't support what you write. I have supported what I posted with facts of what the President has done and then you criticize me for providing you with too much. If you don't agree that is your right but the facts of what he has done are the facts. Keep walking around with your eyes closed and don't answer the questions
people ask of you. "A poor player that struts and frets his hour
upon the stage and then is heard no more: It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." Macbeth Shakespeare That would be you, KFN.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I admit that I didn't read it in toto. PM me if you wish to discuss.

Hope family is doing well.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Even the part where she said "Thanks for the education on the petrodollar."? She took the time to read it. Did you?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My only advice is to not to plan the future until we know what it is. They're all lucky to have you.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Your welcome! I don't care if anyone agrees with my conclusions. I'm just trying to give people background. People are always asking me why I think, what I think. Sometimes, my opinions are based upon stuff most people haven't heard. I seek knowledge and assume that others do as well.
> 
> Dil is at 21 weeks. Only 13 weeks to go. She's doing better than expected. They had expected to put her on bed rest at 20 weeks but she's doing so well, she can continue with the little that she does. She's getting bored because she's usually so active, but the way I look at it, is that were all sacrificing a little to bring these babies into the world. I'm getting used to my busy days, but look forward to having my nice, calm life back. I don't know when that'll happen though. I'm sure I'll be as busy or busier after the babies arrive. I can't imagine what our lives will be like.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> How do you figure we are more at war than when Obama took office?
> 
> We DO NOT still have high unemployment. Even if you insist that the jobs are not real, unemployment when Bush left was something like 10%. And it was HIS FAULT! The improvement is marked.
> 
> ...


Do you REALLY believe that inflation is only 0.1%? Do you buy anything?? Groceries? Clothes? Do you heat your house? For most of us, prices are going up and packaging is getting smaller. The only thing that has dropped in price, is gasoline. There are other reasons for that and it will go back up.

Believe me when I say, that it's no cheaper to go to the ER either. My DH had to go twice just a few months ago. If you think the prices are going down, you're being deceived!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> We all sound 'foolish' to someone else.


 :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> You love the sound of your own voice or in this case the posts you make that make no sense.
> Then keep walking around with your eyes closed and don't answer the questions people ask of you. "There are none so blind as those who will not see" and you are conveniently blind when it comes to the President, "a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more:
> It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,signifying nothing." Macbeth Shakespeare


What questions did I not answer?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Interesting source of some right wing propaganda on just about everything. Talk about gloom and doom. I think I will go stick my head in the oven.
> 
> http://www.ftmdaily.com/about :lol:


Please bake in that oven instead. Ignore the rest.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I admit that I didn't read it in toto. PM me if you wish to discuss.
> 
> Hope family is doing well.


Thanks, Dame! I've got to get to bed. 6:00 comes early. Later?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Do you REALLY believe that inflation is only 0.1%? Do you buy anything?? Groceries? Clothes? Do you heat your house? For most of us, prices are going up and packaging is getting smaller. The only thing that has dropped in price, is gasoline. There are other reasons for that and it will go back up.
> 
> Believe me when I say, that it's no cheaper to go to the ER either. My DH had to go twice just a few months ago. If you think the prices are going down, you're being deceived!


What makes you think inflation is the reason prices are going up and packaging is getting smaller? The alternative reason is greedy businesses - which I find much more plausible. If the inflation rate reported was 10 times greater than reported, that would STILL not be "high" inflation.

I never said it was cheaper to go to the ER. I said those with no insurance USE the ER for health care. Care in the ER is the worst and the cost is the highest.

This happens when people can't see a doctor on a regular basis because they can't afford it without insurance and when their health issues reach crisis levels they go to the ER because by law they MUST be treated - at your expense and my expense in terms of premium dollars and taxes. And due to lack of follow up care and routine care they develop chronic conditions. Not to mention the suffering they endure and their children endure. This is completely, absoluely WRONG. Socialized medicine IS THE ANSWER. Cheaper in the long run and the right thing to do for the common good.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's hard not to agree with "The rich get richer. The poor get poorer." I hardly see that as President Obama's fault. That is a main issue with him but he has been thwarted by the GOP at every step.

Rate of Inflation for 2015 is 1.6% hardly high. Unemployment for 2/2015 5.5%. You have overstated war also. Diplomacy is being tried. What's the beef?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What has he achieved? We're still at war (more than before, in fact). We still have high unemployment. Inflation is high, the cost of goods and services keeps rising. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The aca is great for people who get their insurance at little or no cost. But not so much for the middle class who has to pay for it. Which reminds me of the disappearing middle class. SEVEN years is a long time, and he's very little to show for it. I know he keeps telling us he's done a lot, but what?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

damemary said:


> It's hard not to agree with "The rich get richer. The poor get poorer." I hardly see that as President Obama's fault. That is a main issue with him but he has been thwarted by the GOP at every step.
> 
> Rate of Inflation for 2015 is 1.6% hardly high. Unemployment for 2/2015 5.5%. You have overstated war also. Diplomacy is being tried. What's the beef?


What is the source for the 1.6% inflation rate, Dame? My source says it is negative. That's why the Fed is planning to increase interest rates - to avoid deflation, which is as bad as, or worse than, inflation.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> In Defense of Obama
> The Nobel Prize-winning economist, once one of the presidents most notable critics, on why Obama is a historic success
> 
> BY PAUL KRUGMAN October 8, 2014
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: And the Secret Service reacted proactively when a loud noise was heard as the Presidential Family was getting ready to leave for Selma. They were criticized for "over-reacting."


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Please see Cheeky Blighter's list of Presidential accomplishments, hardly inconsequential.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree, but that wasn't the challenge. Congress is a whole other issue. And besides, one doesn't have to pass new laws to improve conditions or end wars.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> WAAAAY TOO MANY WORDS! I didn't read all of it but skimmed it.
> 
> I addressed the aca. As I said, its great for those who get their insurance at low or reduced costs. Not so much for people whose premiums have doubled or tripled, or for the middle class who foots the bill.
> 
> ...


 :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen you stated the answer to this much better than I. Thank you.



DGreen said:


> How do you figure we are more at war than when Obama took office?
> 
> We DO NOT still have high unemployment. Even if you insist that the jobs are not real, unemployment when Bush left was something like 10%. And it was HIS FAULT! The improvement is marked.
> 
> ...


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

DGreen said:


> What makes you think inflation is the reason prices are going up and packaging is getting smaller? The alternative reason is greedy businesses - which I find much more plausible. If the inflation rate reported was 10 times greater than reported, that would STILL not be "high" inflation.
> 
> I never said it was cheaper to go to the ER. I said those with no insurance USE the ER for health care. Care in the ER is the worst and the cost is the highest.
> 
> This happens when people can't see a doctor on a regular basis because they can't afford it without insurance and when their health issues reach crisis levels they go to the ER because by law they MUST be treated - at your expense and my expense in terms of premium dollars and taxes. And due to lack of follow up care and routine care they develop chronic conditions. Not to mention the suffering they endure and their children endure. This is completely, absoluely WRONG. Socialized medicine IS THE ANSWER. Cheaper in the long run and the right thing to do for the common good.


Thank you DG for pointing this out. I am middle class and have insurance through my states healthcare exchange (MN). I don't qualify for a reduction in premium and I still get a lower premium on my very good coverage with Blue Cross. I am thrilled with ObamaCare and those who are not either don't know what they are talking about or have an ax to grind. I would prefer single payer for all and I hope that is coming next.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cheeky, you and Will Shakespeare provided the best response to this one. Thanks.



Cheeky Blighter said:


> You love the sound of your own voice or in this case the posts you make that make no sense and then you don't support what you write. I have supported what I posted with facts of what the President has done and then you criticize me for providing you with too much. If you don't agree that is your right but the facts of what he has done are the facts. Keep walking around with your eyes closed and don't answer the questions
> people ask of you. "A poor player that struts and frets his hour
> upon the stage and then is heard no more: It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." Macbeth Shakespeare That would be you, KFN.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

1.6% is for last calendar year.



DGreen said:


> What is the source for the 1.6% inflation rate, Dame? My source says it is negative. That's why the Fed is planning to increase interest rates - to avoid deflation, which is as bad as, or worse than, inflation.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Thank you DG for pointing this out. I am middle class and have insurance through my states healthcare exchange (MN). I don't qualify for a reduction in premium and I still get a lower premium on my very good coverage with Blue Cross. I am thrilled with ObamaCare and those who are not either don't know what they are talking about or have an ax to grind. I would prefer single payer for all and I hope that is coming next.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Thank you DG for pointing this out. I am middle class and have insurance through my states healthcare exchange (MN). I don't qualify for a reduction in premium and I still get a lower premium on my very good coverage with Blue Cross. I am thrilled with ObamaCare and those who are not either don't know what they are talking about or have an ax to grind. I would prefer single payer for all and I hope that is coming next.


Yes, single-payer is the next step and is needed. I'm covered by Medicare, so worrying about health insurance is now just choosing a supplemental policy. I remember all too well the difficulties I had when not covered by a group policy.I could not purchase insurance at any price, simply because I had had a breast biopsy and it was benign! Unable to get insurance and unable to afford the $500 cost of a well woman exam, I went for years without a PAP or mammogram. And if I got sick? I was just sick and coped the best I could. I knew I had high cholesterol that diet and exercise didn't reduce - but I could not afford the $125 a month for the statin I had been prescribed and which worked for me. So I had a heart attack - thankfully AFTER I was insured again thru a change in employment. Mind you, I have always taken personal responsibility for my life and my own well being. I was uninsured because my employer sold the company to a bank - who made the rounds one day with final paychecks before padlocking the door without warning. I took whatever employment I could get - but insurance was not part of the deal.

I'm proud to say I'm a liberal. Liberals are compassionate and are willing to make sacrifices for the common good. They are generally more respectful of others than conservatives, who are judgmental and critical and negative, and when presented with a solution can do nothing but tear it apart if it benefits anyone they don't like or who they deem worthless or lazy (usually views based on prejudice, not fact). I find most of them to be racist, prejudiced and narrow minded. It's no accident that conservatives believe higher education to be hotbeds of liberalism. It has been proved that people who seek higher education tend to be liberal and they tend to be critical thinkers. Observe the states that have the lowest levels of education - they are republican, they elect republicans, and they are also the most fanatic in terms of religion. The south. Republican states are the poorest and use the most public assistance. And they scream against those very things the loudest.

Health care, education, social justice. These are good things. Unions are good things. Investing in infrastructure is a good thing. Investing in scientific knowledge is a good thing. These things make us civilized and help us make progress as humans. I'm tired of hearing people use the word "liberal" as an epithet. It's something to be proud of, and I am glad to say I'm proud to be a liberal.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Interesting source of some right wing propaganda on just about everything. Talk about gloom and doom. I think I will go stick my head in the oven.
> 
> http://www.ftmdaily.com/about :lol:


That really is interesting, but forget the oven; there are plenty of antidotes.

The attitude at ftmdaily seems to be "We'll do the thinking for you so you don't have to."


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> That really is interesting, but forget the oven; there are plenty of antidotes.
> 
> The attitude at ftmdaily seems to be "We'll do the thinking for you so you don't have to."


And fundamentalist christian to boot. I'm gagging.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Doesn't ever work for me.



Poor Purl said:


> That really is interesting, but forget the oven; there are plenty of antidotes.
> 
> The attitude at ftmdaily seems to be "We'll do the thinking for you so you don't have to."


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What has he achieved? We're still at war (more than before, in fact). We still have high unemployment. Inflation is high, the cost of goods and services keeps rising. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The aca is great for people who get their insurance at little or no cost. But not so much for the middle class who has to pay for it. Which reminds me of the disappearing middle class. SEVEN years is a long time, and he's very little to show for it. I know he keeps telling us he's done a lot, but what?


I can't comment on the continuing wars, though the uncalled for invasion of Iraq had a multiplier effect terrorist attacks.

Unemployment, however, *is not high*; it's gone down to 5.5% from the 10+% it hit in 2009 (President Obama's first year). Don't your sources cover current statistics? I'd call that quite an accomplishment.

The middle class has been shrinking since the 1980s (Reagan-Bush years), and the 35 years spent destroying laws and unions that would have helped are difficult to overcome in Obama's 6 (not 7) years, especially with a recalcitrant Congress that fights him on everything.

As for inflation, the Fed has been keeping it down as much as possible. There's not much the federal government can do to keep down the price of eggs and spaghetti, which is where we're being hit by inflation.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> In Defense of Obama
> The Nobel Prize-winning economist, once one of the presidents most notable critics, on why Obama is a historic success
> 
> BY PAUL KRUGMAN October 8, 2014


Cheeky, this was quite a piece. But don't forget that Krugman actually calls himself a liberal, so what he says will be discounted by conservatives.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> It's hard not to agree with "The rich get richer. The poor get poorer." I hardly see that as President Obama's fault. That is a main issue with him but he has been thwarted by the GOP at every step.
> 
> Rate of Inflation for 2015 is 1.6% hardly high. Unemployment for 2/2015 5.5%. You have overstated war also. Diplomacy is being tried. What's the beef?


=====
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> If unemployment were calculated the way it had always been calculated before, the actual numbers would show unemployment closer to 25%.
> http://www.shadowstats.com/ But by fixing the numbers, they can convince people that everything is rosy. Is it rosy for you and the people you know?
> 
> I agree with you about the reps, but the dems weren't any better. We should kick them all to the curb.


Knitter from Nebraska
unemployment at 25% - are you for real? Yikes, the stuff to buy into is amazing - breathtaking. I need to go for air.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen
I wish to applaud you for the factual information you always post. You are truly EXTREMELY WELL informed, right down to the nitty gritty. THANK YOU. Huck


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Yes, single-payer is the next step and is needed. I'm covered by Medicare, so worrying about health insurance is now just choosing a supplemental policy. I remember all too well the difficulties I had when not covered by a group policy.I could not purchase insurance at any price, simply because I had had a breast biopsy and it was benign! Unable to get insurance and unable to afford the $500 cost of a well woman exam, I went for years without a PAP or mammogram. And if I got sick? I was just sick and coped the best I could. I knew I had high cholesterol that diet and exercise didn't reduce - but I could not afford the $125 a month for the statin I had been prescribed and which worked for me. So I had a heart attack - thankfully AFTER I was insured again thru a change in employment. Mind you, I have always taken personal responsibility for my life and my own well being. I was uninsured because my employer sold the company to a bank - who made the rounds one day with final paychecks before padlocking the door without warning. I took whatever employment I could get - but insurance was not part of the deal.
> 
> I'm proud to say I'm a liberal. Liberals are compassionate and are willing to make sacrifices for the common good. They are generally more respectful of others than conservatives, who are judgmental and critical and negative, and when presented with a solution can do nothing but tear it apart if it benefits anyone they don't like or who they deem worthless or lazy (usually views based on prejudice, not fact). I find most of them to be racist, prejudiced and narrow minded. It's no accident that conservatives believe higher education to be hotbeds of liberalism. It has been proved that people who seek higher education tend to be liberal and they tend to be critical thinkers. Observe the states that have the lowest levels of education - they are republican, they elect republicans, and they are also the most fanatic in terms of religion. The south. Republican states are the poorest and use the most public assistance. And they scream against those very things the loudest.
> 
> Health care, education, social justice. These are good things. Unions are good things. Investing in infrastructure is a good thing. Investing in scientific knowledge is a good thing. These things make us civilized and help us make progress as humans. I'm tired of hearing people use the word "liberal" as an epithet. It's something to be proud of, and I am glad to say I'm proud to be a liberal.


DGreen
I close ranks with you as a staunch LIBERAL. Liberal is a term to be embraced warmly. You stated exactly what we stand for and that is much to be proud of. Being a Liberal also allows us to be free thinkers, we are not fenced in by politics or religion. Let freedom ring. Huck


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

my Fellow Liberals, 
your postings are music to my ears. THANK YOU.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> I close ranks with you as a staunch LIBERAL. Liberal is a term to be embraced warmly. You stated exactly what we stand for and that is much to be proud of. Being a Liberal also allows us to be free thinkers, we are not fenced in by politics or religion. Let freedom ring. Huck


Thanks for your kind words and support, Huck. We liberals need to stop apologizing for our ideals and state them plainly as the positive things they are.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> unemployment at 25% - are you for real? Yikes, the stuff to buy into is amazing - breathtaking. I need to go for air.


Participation in the labor market is definitely going down, but a huge part of that is the impact of baby boomer retirement and young people returning to school in response to the Bush disaster. There are many, many theories about the reduction in people looking for work, but few of them (only the conservative-leaning, of course) attribute the reduction to Obama. Remember, he DID NOT CREATE the economic crisis he inherited. Look at the charts - the economy was clearly suffering from the Bush years. The recession was years in the making, it was fueled by Bush's policies and unfunded war, it was influenced by similar worldwide economic problems, it was deepened by the irresponsibility of Wall Street greed and speculation and it definitely has improved. It's time for republicans to stop evading their contribution to the mess Obama has tried and succeeded at cleaning up.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

From Andy Borowitz on Facebook:

_Florida is reportedly dealing with the problem of climate change by having the state's environmental agency ban the words "climate change." So I guess the best way to deal with the problem of Gov. Rick Scott is to ban the word "moron."_


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> From Andy Borowitz on Facebook:
> 
> _Florida is reportedly dealing with the problem of climate change by having the state's environmental agency ban the words "climate change." So I guess the best way to deal with the problem of Gov. Rick Scott is to ban the word "moron."_


DGreen
now that is funny. Thank you.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Participation in the labor market is definitely going down, but a huge part of that is the impact of baby boomer retirement and young people returning to school in response to the Bush disaster. There are many, many theories about the reduction in people looking for work, but few of them (only the conservative-leaning, of course) attribute the reduction to Obama. Remember, he DID NOT CREATE the economic crisis he inherited. Look at the charts - the economy was clearly suffering from the Bush years. The recession was years in the making, it was fueled by Bush's policies and unfunded war, it was influenced by similar worldwide economic problems, it was deepened by the irresponsibility of Wall Street greed and speculation and it definitely has improved. It's time for republicans to stop evading their contribution to the mess Obama has tried and succeeded at cleaning up.


DGreen
no doubt, much needs to be taken care of. First of all pay inequity for all of labor. When the smallest segment of Society increases its income by over 300% and the rest remains stagnant for decades, something needs to move. 
I also think that since most Politicians are Lawyers, we need to push hard for BETTER education or make laws to keep these charlatans out of Politics. The language coming out of Washington and States is such a scrambled mess that even they do not understand it any longer therefore they often claim not to have read something. It also is to make the public at large looking dumb. If one has to read something several times to make sense of it, something is drastically wrong.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> no doubt, much needs to be taken care of. First of all pay inequity for all of labor. When the smallest segment of Society increases its income by over 300% and the rest remains stagnant for decades, something needs to move.
> I also think that since most Politicians are Lawyers, we need to push hard for BETTER education or make laws to keep these charlatans out of Politics. The language coming out of Washington and States is such a scrambled mess that even they do not understand it any longer therefore they often claim not to have read something. It also is to make the public at large looking dumb. If one has to read something several times to make sense of it, something is drastically wrong.


You are so right. Make that "correct."

It all goes back to the income inequality problem, which is drastically worse than most of use can even comprehend. That, and money in politics. I absolutely believe that until we get big money out of politics we will not be able to move forward on any of our pressing, urgent problems as a country. Money keeps the tax structure the way it is - which certainly does not benefit the vast majority of Americans. Money buys the conversation and buys media coverage that sways the ignorant and brainwashed to vote against their best interests. When we return to free and fair elections - preferably publicly funded - then we can start to pass laws that promote the common good. Laws and programs promoting education, environmental protection, wage equality, infrastructure, health care, mental health care, gun control, science and research. GREEN TECHNOLOGY. There are some who sincerely believe there is no difference between Democrats and republicans in terms of public policy. Hogwash. Democrats are the ones who want progress and will work for it. We've proved it with things like Social Security and Medicare, banking regulations, environmental protections and equal rights. We are the ones who truly believe in the Constitution and individual rights (notice the ACLU is liberal, NOT conservative). Republicans want to return to 1900 in terms of business regulation and 1950 in terms of social structure.

Can't let that happen.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> I close ranks with you as a staunch LIBERAL. Liberal is a term to be embraced warmly. You stated exactly what we stand for and that is much to be proud of. Being a Liberal also allows us to be free thinkers, we are not fenced in by politics or religion. Let freedom ring. Huck


I am a staunch liberal too and everything Green has said is my truth too. I am so glad I am able to THINK and reach my own conclusions - kindness, caring for others who are not as lucky as we are, -

we are liberals and I am proud to be among this group.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Participation in the labor market is definitely going down, but a huge part of that is the impact of baby boomer retirement and young people returning to school in response to the Bush disaster. There are many, many theories about the reduction in people looking for work, but few of them (only the conservative-leaning, of course) attribute the reduction to Obama. Remember, he DID NOT CREATE the economic crisis he inherited. Look at the charts - the economy was clearly suffering from the Bush years. The recession was years in the making, it was fueled by Bush's policies and unfunded war, it was influenced by similar worldwide economic problems, it was deepened by the irresponsibility of Wall Street greed and speculation and it definitely has improved. It's time for republicans to stop evading their contribution to the mess Obama has tried and succeeded at cleaning up.


The point I was making was not that obama created the economic problems. I don't think that he did. I just don't think he's done enough to improve them. BTW, when a person's unemployment benefits run out, they are no longer counted with the unemployed. With their new way of calculating, they only count those who are receiving unemployment benefits. And those who have retired are not counted in the unemployed, either.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> no doubt, much needs to be taken care of. First of all pay inequity for all of labor. When the smallest segment of Society increases its income by over 300% and the rest remains stagnant for decades, something needs to move.
> I also think that since most Politicians are Lawyers, we need to push hard for BETTER education or make laws to keep these charlatans out of Politics. The language coming out of Washington and States is such a scrambled mess that even they do not understand it any longer therefore they often claim not to have read something. It also is to make the public at large looking dumb. If one has to read something several times to make sense of it, something is drastically wrong.


IMO, the first thing we should do, is make lobbying illegal. We should require every bill to be written by the congressman or senator who introduces it. And nothing should be added or subtracted from that bill, unless it has something to do with the original content of the bill. Then, I think we should eliminate all deductions and loopholes in the tax code. Rates could be lowered for the poor and middle class because the super rich would be paying taxes for a change. Raising the tax rate on the super wealthy doesn't accomplish much, because they've so many tax shelters that they only pay taxes on a fraction of their income. Tax loopholes were written just for them. I'd gladly give up my measly mortgage interest deduction if the billionaires made up the difference.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You are so right. Make that "correct."
> 
> It all goes back to the income inequality problem, which is drastically worse than most of use can even comprehend. That, and money in politics. I absolutely believe that until we get big money out of politics we will not be able to move forward on any of our pressing, urgent problems as a country. Money keeps the tax structure the way it is - which certainly does not benefit the vast majority of Americans. Money buys the conversation and buys media coverage that sways the ignorant and brainwashed to vote against their best interests. When we return to free and fair elections - preferably publicly funded - then we can start to pass laws that promote the common good. Laws and programs promoting education, environmental protection, wage equality, infrastructure, health care, mental health care, gun control, science and research. GREEN TECHNOLOGY. There are some who sincerely believe there is no difference between Democrats and republicans in terms of public policy. Hogwash. Democrats are the ones who want progress and will work for it. We've proved it with things like Social Security and Medicare, banking regulations, environmental protections and equal rights. We are the ones who truly believe in the Constitution and individual rights (notice the ACLU is liberal, NOT conservative). Republicans want to return to 1900 in terms of business regulation and 1950 in terms of social structure.
> 
> Can't let that happen.


I agree with the first part of your post except to say that IMO, the only way we can have income equality is if there are more jobs, than people seeking them. If our government doesn't do anything to bring back the jobs, we're all at the mercy of whomever will employ us. Supply and demand.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Those bells are ringing....



Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> I close ranks with you as a staunch LIBERAL. Liberal is a term to be embraced warmly. You stated exactly what we stand for and that is much to be proud of. Being a Liberal also allows us to be free thinkers, we are not fenced in by politics or religion. Let freedom ring. Huck


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Participation in the labor market is definitely going down, but a huge part of that is the impact of baby boomer retirement and young people returning to school in response to the Bush disaster. There are many, many theories about the reduction in people looking for work, but few of them (only the conservative-leaning, of course) attribute the reduction to Obama. Remember, he DID NOT CREATE the economic crisis he inherited. Look at the charts - the economy was clearly suffering from the Bush years. The recession was years in the making, it was fueled by Bush's policies and unfunded war, it was influenced by similar worldwide economic problems, it was deepened by the irresponsibility of Wall Street greed and speculation and it definitely has improved. It's time for republicans to stop evading their contribution to the mess Obama has tried and succeeded at cleaning up.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> From Andy Borowitz on Facebook:
> 
> _Florida is reportedly dealing with the problem of climate change by having the state's environmental agency ban the words "climate change." So I guess the best way to deal with the problem of Gov. Rick Scott is to ban the word "moron."_


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> no doubt, much needs to be taken care of. First of all pay inequity for all of labor. When the smallest segment of Society increases its income by over 300% and the rest remains stagnant for decades, something needs to move.
> I also think that since most Politicians are Lawyers, we need to push hard for BETTER education or make laws to keep these charlatans out of Politics. The language coming out of Washington and States is such a scrambled mess that even they do not understand it any longer therefore they often claim not to have read something. It also is to make the public at large looking dumb. If one has to read something several times to make sense of it, something is drastically wrong.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> You are so right. Make that "correct."
> 
> It all goes back to the income inequality problem, which is drastically worse than most of use can even comprehend. That, and money in politics. I absolutely believe that until we get big money out of politics we will not be able to move forward on any of our pressing, urgent problems as a country. Money keeps the tax structure the way it is - which certainly does not benefit the vast majority of Americans. Money buys the conversation and buys media coverage that sways the ignorant and brainwashed to vote against their best interests. When we return to free and fair elections - preferably publicly funded - then we can start to pass laws that promote the common good. Laws and programs promoting education, environmental protection, wage equality, infrastructure, health care, mental health care, gun control, science and research. GREEN TECHNOLOGY. There are some who sincerely believe there is no difference between Democrats and republicans in terms of public policy. Hogwash. Democrats are the ones who want progress and will work for it. We've proved it with things like Social Security and Medicare, banking regulations, environmental protections and equal rights. We are the ones who truly believe in the Constitution and individual rights (notice the ACLU is liberal, NOT conservative). Republicans want to return to 1900 in terms of business regulation and 1950 in terms of social structure.
> 
> Can't let that happen.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree with the first part of your post except to say that IMO, the only way we can have income equality is if there are more jobs, than people seeking them. If our government doesn't do anything to bring back the jobs, we're all at the mercy of whomever will employ us. Supply and demand.


Income equality has NOTHING to do with jobs. Let me repeat - NOTHING. It is NOT supply and demand.

It has to do with taxation.

Please look again at the video on income inequality.

http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-296193-1.html

Even those we used to consider well-to-do are hurting because all the capital is flowing to the top. The video is factual, not slanted.

The FACT is that when taxes are high on the TOP earners, everybody, including the top earners, thrive. Regan slashed taxes at the top and you and I have been sending money to the top ever since. And all that money allows the 1% to buy politicians and to keep their tax advantages.

We must stop lobbying and unfettered campaign contributions. We must overturn Citizens United and go to a system of free and fair, publicly funded elections.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Income equality has NOTHING to do with jobs. Let me repeat - NOTHING. It is NOT supply and demand.
> 
> It has to do with taxation.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Income equality has NOTHING to do with jobs. Let me repeat - NOTHING. It is NOT supply and demand.
> 
> It has to do with taxation.
> 
> ...


DGreen
Bravo. Only the dollar we give when doing our Taxes, should be used for political campaigns. I will never understand why so much money needs to be spend to be re-elected. IF someone has done a good job, they should have NO WORRY, should they. Campaigning should be a cinch for an incumbent. "Look at my record" should be all that needs to be said. As it is, half their term they lollygag and the other half they collect lots of dirty money.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Income equality has NOTHING to do with jobs. Let me repeat - NOTHING. It is NOT supply and demand.
> 
> It has to do with taxation.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> Bravo. Only the dollar we give when doing our Taxes, should be used for political campaigns. I will never understand why so much money needs to be spend to be re-elected. IF someone has done a good job, they should have NO WORRY, should they. Campaigning should be a cinch for an incumbent. "Look at my record" should be all that needs to be said. As it is, half their term they lollygag and the other half they collect lots of dirty money.


The whole system has been corrupted by money. I'm dismayed to see the Democrats stooping to attack ads and sensationalism, not to mention everything has been reduced to "sound bites" and "talking points" instead of substance. We have only ourselves to blame because we don't demand more. Politicians refuse to give us answers - instead they stay "on message" that has been scripted by advertising agencies. Like selling cars or laundry detergent. Winning elections has become some kind of twisted science and those who refuse to play are buried by those who are willing to accept Koch money. Time for a major change.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put. Bravo.



DGreen said:


> The whole system has been corrupted by money. I'm dismayed to see the Democrats stooping to attack ads and sensationalism, not to mention everything has been reduced to "sound bites" and "talking points" instead of substance. We have only ourselves to blame because we don't demand more. Politicians refuse to give us answers - instead they stay "on message" that has been scripted by advertising agencies. Like selling cars or laundry detergent. Winning elections has become some kind of twisted science and those who refuse to play are buried by those who are willing to accept Koch money. Time for a major change.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> The whole system has been corrupted by money. I'm dismayed to see the Democrats stooping to attack ads and sensationalism, not to mention everything has been reduced to "sound bites" and "talking points" instead of substance. We have only ourselves to blame because we don't demand more. Politicians refuse to give us answers - instead they stay "on message" that has been scripted by advertising agencies. Like selling cars or laundry detergent. Winning elections has become some kind of twisted science and those who refuse to play are buried by those who are willing to accept Koch money. Time for a major change.


DGreen
The Koch Brothers are a perfect example how money has poisoned our political system and shame they have absolutely none. Unfortunately they have so much money that is does not really concern them if we the consumer stop buying their products. I have and wish everyone else would. Eventually it reaches them.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> The Koch Brothers are a perfect example how money has poisoned our political system and shame they have absolutely none. Unfortunately they have so much money that is does not really concern them if we the consumer stop buying their products. I have and wish everyone else would. Eventually it reaches them.


I've heard some call those who accept money from the infamous brothers "Koch-suckers." Damn. Wish I had thought up that one! So expressive.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I've heard some call those who accept money from the infamous brothers "Koch-suckers." Damn. Wish I had thought up that one! So expressive.


DGreen
what a wonderful description for the Kocks.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Fellow Liberals.
47 seems to be a magic number among the Republicans. It
crashed Romney and hopefully now the 47 who send a letter to Iran. They will look like the biggest Idiots to other world leaders who are trying to negotiate with President Obama and Iran. Too bad Politics no longer will attract intelligent individuals, it is turning into a circus without animals but plenty of Clowns with the Donald as its Ring Leader. If this subject was not to serious, it would be super funny.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I've heard some call those who accept money from the infamous brothers "Koch-suckers." Damn. Wish I had thought up that one! So expressive.


Scott Walker being the leader of the gang...


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Fellow Liberals.
> 47 seems to be a magic number among the Republicans. It
> crashed Romney and hopefully now the 47 who send a letter to Iran. They will look like the biggest Idiots to other world leaders who are trying to negotiate with President Obama and Iran. Too bad Politics no longer will attract intelligent individuals, it is turning into a circus without animals but plenty of Clowns with the Donald as its Ring Leader. If this subject was not to serious, it would be super funny.


How true, Huck! What were they expecting from Iran? A thank you note?
The smack down response that they received from Iran on International Law and policy should shame them. If they had any shame to begin with. What a chain of fools they are.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

They _are_ traitors. They are so intent one their one-upmanship drive against the president that they simply don't care about the effect of their actions on our country. It seems that the extreme right will stop at nothing and I wonder what's next. These idiots should be brought up on charges.

You can bet that if the left ever tried a stunt like this these same nuts would be frothing at the mouth and screaming about it.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Its McCarthyism mixed with some KKK.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I think it's terrible that those in congress felt they had to go to these lengths. Obama does NOT have the right to act without the approval of congress! If he had not overstepped his bounds, none of this would have happened.

This actually happened in the past. Nixon entered into an agreement without congressional approval and a democratic congress refused to honor the agreement. BOTH sides should follow the law!

http://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/03/09/the-senators-are-right-on-iran/


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> Bravo. Only the dollar we give when doing our Taxes, should be used for political campaigns. I will never understand why so much money needs to be spend to be re-elected. IF someone has done a good job, they should have NO WORRY, should they. Campaigning should be a cinch for an incumbent. "Look at my record" should be all that needs to be said. As it is, half their term they lollygag and the other half they collect lots of dirty money.


 :thumbup:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> The whole system has been corrupted by money. I'm dismayed to see the Democrats stooping to attack ads and sensationalism, not to mention everything has been reduced to "sound bites" and "talking points" instead of substance. We have only ourselves to blame because we don't demand more. Politicians refuse to give us answers - instead they stay "on message" that has been scripted by advertising agencies. Like selling cars or laundry detergent. Winning elections has become some kind of twisted science and those who refuse to play are buried by those who are willing to accept Koch money. Time for a major change.


 :thumbup: But don't forget the Steyer brothers!

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/1/the-steyer-brothers-gop-finds-koch-rivals-who-fina/?page=all


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> :thumbup: But don't forget the Steyer brothers!
> 
> http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/1/the-steyer-brothers-gop-finds-koch-rivals-who-fina/?page=all


At least the Steyers are trying to so something positive - like save the world by doing something about climate change. The Kochs are trying to destroy our government. Big difference.

Go ahead an demonize them. Liberals know the difference.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think it's terrible that those in congress felt they had to go to these lengths. Obama does NOT have the right to act without the approval of congress! If he had not overstepped his bounds, none of this would have happened.
> 
> This actually happened in the past. Nixon entered into an agreement without congressional approval and a democratic congress refused to honor the agreement. BOTH sides should follow the law!
> 
> http://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/03/09/the-senators-are-right-on-iran/


What a load of bull crap. As to the Nixon era thing--the Dems did NOT try to supercede the President by sending a letter to North Vietnam. They followed procedure. They didn't damage our country by acting as the 47 Republican senators did now.

Obama didn't "force" them to do anything. They chose to blindly attack the president without rhyme or reason and in doing so both damaged and embarrassed both the country and themselves.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> At least the Steyers are trying to so something positive - like save the world by doing something about climate change. The Kochs are trying to destroy our government. Big difference.
> 
> Go ahead an demonize them. Liberals know the difference.


What do you really know about the steyers? They're hypocrites!
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/04/the-epic-hypocrisy-of-tom-steyer.php

There's no difference between them and the kochs. It's always about the money.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> What a load of bull crap. As to the Nixon era thing--the Dems did NOT try to supercede the President by sending a letter to North Vietnam. They followed procedure. They didn't damage our country by acting as the 47 Republican senators did now.
> 
> Obama didn't "force" them to do anything. They chose to blindly attack the president without rhyme or reason and in doing so both damaged and embarrassed both the country and themselves.


No, the dems just refused to help an ally under attack, after our president gave his word. At least today's reps are making it clear, right up front that the deal will be off, instead of waiting until a critical life and death time to do so.

Neither side is right in any of this! obama supposedly taught constitutional law. He went into this knowing that what he was doing was wrong.

Whether the country has been embarrassed or damaged, is debatable. As many as have said it has been, think the opposite. I stand on the embarrassed and damaged side, myself, but both sides are responsible.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think it's terrible that those in congress felt they had to go to these lengths. Obama does NOT have the right to act without the approval of congress! If he had not overstepped his bounds, none of this would have happened.
> 
> This actually happened in the past. Nixon entered into an agreement without congressional approval and a democratic congress refused to honor the agreement. BOTH sides should follow the law!
> 
> http://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/03/09/the-senators-are-right-on-iran/


Knitter from Nebraska
the President has the power to act as he is doing and then.......... You need to learn about our Laws.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No, the dems just refused to help an ally under attack, after our president gave his word. At least today's reps are making it clear, right up front that the deal will be off, instead of waiting until a critical life and death time to do so.
> 
> Neither side is right in any of this! obama supposedly taught constitutional law. He went into this knowing that what he was doing was wrong.
> 
> Whether the country has been embarrassed or damaged, is debatable. As many as have said it has been, think the opposite. I stand on the embarrassed and damaged side, myself, but both sides are responsible.


Knitter from Nebraska
since you are supporting the behavior of the 47 misguided, I hope that the males in your family are at an age where they still could be called to arms because that is how it may end if the negotiations fail. And if we enter new Wars, the draft will become a necessity. Our dear Soldiers have been used and abused all too much and it is time that those who support War, will fight them. Draft will become a necessity.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> What a load of bull crap. As to the Nixon era thing--the Dems did NOT try to supercede the President by sending a letter to North Vietnam. They followed procedure. They didn't damage our country by acting as the 47 Republican senators did now.
> 
> Obama didn't "force" them to do anything. They chose to blindly attack the president without rhyme or reason and in doing so both damaged and embarrassed both the country and themselves.


sumpleby
Thank you. The Republicans have a dire need to show how racist they are and let us, who have overcome such dastardly thoughts and behavior use the power we have and vote in droves next time around. Folks, there is a remedy for this, boots on our ground to the voting booths.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> At least the Steyers are trying to so something positive - like save the world by doing something about climate change. The Kochs are trying to destroy our government. Big difference.
> 
> Go ahead an demonize them. Liberals know the difference.


DGreen
yes, we do know the difference. THANK YOU.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No, the dems just refused to help an ally under attack, after our president gave his word. At least today's reps are making it clear, right up front that the deal will be off, instead of waiting until a critical life and death time to do so.
> 
> Neither side is right in any of this! obama supposedly taught constitutional law. He went into this knowing that what he was doing was wrong.
> 
> Whether the country has been embarrassed or damaged, is debatable. As many as have said it has been, think the opposite. I stand on the embarrassed and damaged side, myself, but both sides are responsible.


Since when is it against Constitutional law to engage in peace talks ?
Whatever he had brought back from the talks would have had to go through the houses to have it radified.
But these 47 traitors couldn't wait for that. They went against the Logan Act twice. You should google it. They could get up to 3 years in the pokey.
How convenient that they are holding up Lynch's approval for AG. No better time to pull a boner like this one.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> yes, we do know the difference. THANK YOU.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> The whole system has been corrupted by money. I'm dismayed to see the Democrats stooping to attack ads and sensationalism, not to mention everything has been reduced to "sound bites" and "talking points" instead of substance. We have only ourselves to blame because we don't demand more. Politicians refuse to give us answers - instead they stay "on message" that has been scripted by advertising agencies. Like selling cars or laundry detergent. Winning elections has become some kind of twisted science and those who refuse to play are buried by those who are willing to accept Koch money. Time for a major change.


DGreen
unfortunately if we don't speak up and loud, no one will listen. Our Citizens have become deaf to some degree and need to be wakened by shouts. 
I totally agree, major changes need to take place if we want to survive as a leading nation. It is most interesting to read the response from the Iranian Official, who took advantage of our higher education and knows our laws far better than the 47 dummies who wrote to Iran.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Since when is it against Constitutional law to engage in peace talks ?
> Whatever he had brought back from the talks would have had to go through the houses to have it radified.
> But these 47 traitors couldn't wait for that. They went against the Logan Act twice. You should google it. They could get up to 3 years in the pokey.
> How convenient that they are holding up Lynch's approval for AG. No better time to pull a boner like this one.


BrattyPatty
and we think we have problems with the Republicans in Washington? Far less then the Republicans who did not sign the letter to Iran. Actually they are throwing more and more power into our direction. All we have to do is take advantage of it at the Polls.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> Its McCarthyism mixed with some KKK.


SQM
a lot to think about once again.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> BrattyPatty
> and we think we have problems with the Republicans in Washington? Far less then the Republicans who did not sign the letter to Iran. Actually they are throwing more and more power into our direction. All we have to do is take advantage of it at the Polls.


My thoughts exactly, Huck.! :thumbup:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think it's terrible that those in congress felt they had to go to these lengths. Obama does NOT have the right to act without the approval of congress! If he had not overstepped his bounds, none of this would have happened.
> 
> This actually happened in the past. Nixon entered into an agreement without congressional approval and a democratic congress refused to honor the agreement. BOTH sides should follow the law!
> 
> http://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/03/09/the-senators-are-right-on-iran/


um, yes, he does the power to act alone. It is call executive orders. So far he is one of the presidents who have used less EO's, than his predecessors. If Congress refuses to work, then he has every right to use them.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> BrattyPatty
> and we think we have problems with the Republicans in Washington? Far less then the Republicans who did not sign the letter to Iran. Actually they are throwing more and more power into our direction. All we have to do is take advantage of it at the Polls.


I hope you are right. I just hope that the people don't want what seems to be happening there. I hope they all vote instead of letting others vote away the problems


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> They _are_ traitors. They are so intent one their one-upmanship drive against the president that they simply don't care about the effect of their actions on our country. It seems that the extreme right will stop at nothing and I wonder what's next. These idiots should be brought up on charges.
> 
> You can bet that if the left ever tried a stunt like this these same nuts would be frothing at the mouth and screaming about it.


They'd be getting their guns!


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

The


Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think it's terrible that those in congress felt they had to go to these lengths. Obama does NOT have the right to act without the approval of congress! If he had not overstepped his bounds, none of this would have happened.
> 
> This actually happened in the past. Nixon entered into an agreement without congressional approval and a democratic congress refused to honor the agreement. BOTH sides should follow the law!
> 
> http://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/03/09/the-senators-are-right-on-iran/


I know I sound like a broken record, but we STILL have a Congress that is doing nothing and hasn't done anything during President Obama's term. The President has to act when we have a Congress full of do-nothings.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> The
> 
> I know I sound like a broken record, but we STILL have a Congress that is doing nothing and hasn't done anything during President Obama's term. The President has to act when we have a Congress full of do-nothings.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> At least the Steyers are trying to so something positive - like save the world by doing something about climate change. The Kochs are trying to destroy our government. Big difference.
> 
> Go ahead an demonize them. Liberals know the difference.


It could be said that the Kochs are trying to destroy the world by pushing for climate change (or denying its existence, which comes to the same thing).

When do the Steyer brothers get the Soros treatment? It should't take long.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> What a load of bull crap. As to the Nixon era thing--the Dems did NOT try to supercede the President by sending a letter to North Vietnam. They followed procedure. They didn't damage our country by acting as the 47 Republican senators did now.
> 
> Obama didn't "force" them to do anything. They chose to blindly attack the president without rhyme or reason and in doing so both damaged and embarrassed both the country and themselves.


But for a party that feels no shame about anything its members do, there is no embarrassment. They all have "wide stances."


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> It could be said that the Kochs are trying to destroy the world by pushing for climate change (or denying its existence, which comes to the same thing).
> 
> When do the Steyer brothers get the Soros treatment? It should't take long.


It's already started. KFN has kindly supplied a link to one such character assasination. According to the link, Steyer, who admittedly made his fortune in trading coal before he came to the realization that climate change is a real crisis, is a hypocrite. Heck, I'll gladly see his hypocritical money help elect intelligent people who recognize the disaster of climate change and will do something about it. Look at the goons the Koch money elects.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No, the dems just refused to help an ally under attack, after our president gave his word. At least today's reps are making it clear, right up front that the deal will be off, instead of waiting until a critical life and death time to do so.
> 
> Neither side is right in any of this! obama supposedly taught constitutional law. He went into this knowing that what he was doing was wrong.
> 
> Whether the country has been embarrassed or damaged, is debatable. As many as have said it has been, think the opposite. I stand on the embarrassed and damaged side, myself, but both sides are responsible.


Has it not occurred to you that no wrong has been done yet? There is no treaty; there are talks, which I believe the Constitution permits. There are plans. So far the only wrong has been done by those 47 treasonous loons.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

kFN wrote

I think it's terrible that those in congress felt they had to go to these lengths. Obama does NOT have the right to act without the approval of congress! If he had not overstepped his bounds, none of this would have happened. 
----------------------------
What a croc! they felt the HAD TO go to these lengths.??? Come on!! no one forced them to do any of the things they have done to try to embarrass the President. They could have done some positive things instead of so many negatives. They deliberately showed the world that they would do ANYTHING NO MATTER WHAT to embarrass the President, and they deliberately are trying to make sure that the world hates Obama - however, if they succeed your country loses the respect of the world. They didn't have to do anything of the sort I just hope it works for the Liberals and I believe that it will. I hope that each time they do something like undermining him like they have that more and more Democrats vote against the Repulicans.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Since when is it against Constitutional law to engage in peace talks ?
> Whatever he had brought back from the talks would have had to go through the houses to have it radified.
> But these 47 traitors couldn't wait for that. They went against the Logan Act twice. You should google it. They could get up to 3 years in the pokey.
> How convenient that they are holding up Lynch's approval for AG. No better time to pull a boner like this one.


Thanks, Patty - you beat me to it (and taught me about the Logan Act).


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> The
> 
> I know I sound like a broken record, but we STILL have a Congress that is doing nothing and hasn't done anything during President Obama's term. The President has to act when we have a Congress full of do-nothings.


Come on! They're doing something. They're behaving like idiots, but at least it's something. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> But for a party that feels no shame about anything its members do, there is no embarrassment. They all have "wide stances."


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

DGreen said:


> It's already started. KFN has kindly supplied a link to one such character assasination. According to the link, Steyer, who admittedly made his fortune in trading coal before he came to the realization that climate change is a real crisis, is a hypocrite. Heck, I'll gladly see his hypocritical money help elect intelligent people who recognize the disaster of climate change and will do something about it. Look at the goons the Koch money elects.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Just learned a new word: desuetude, something (like a law) that falls into disuse and dies from not being enforced. Like the Logan Act?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I should make a correction in my post about the Senate ratifying treaties.
This is a piece I have just finished reading. Seems that the letter writers made a couple of errors re the constitution:

http://www.lawfareblog.com/2015/03/the-error-in-the-senators-letter-to-the-leaders-of-iran/


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Just learned a new word: desuetude, something (like a law) that falls into disuse and dies from not being enforced. Like the Logan Act?


What a perfect time to start enforcing it, right?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> What a perfect time to start enforcing it, right?[/quote
> 
> I wish I had the wherewithal to go after those senators! Why do these guys think they have the power to do what they're doing? It takes an incredible amount of chutzpah (and at the same time, stupidity) to oppose the President (and the US government) to do such a thing. I'm really at a loss for words.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> It's already started. KFN has kindly supplied a link to one such character assasination. According to the link, Steyer, who admittedly made his fortune in trading coal before he came to the realization that climate change is a real crisis, is a hypocrite. Heck, I'll gladly see his hypocritical money help elect intelligent people who recognize the disaster of climate change and will do something about it. Look at the goons the Koch money elects.


Right with you on that. People who don't learn from their mistakes never change their minds. That doesn't make the rest of us hypocrites; it makes them stupid.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Right with you on that. People who don't learn from their mistakes never change their minds. That doesn't make the rest of us hypocrites; it makes them stupid.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I should make a correction in my post about the Senate ratifying treaties.
> This is a piece I have just finished reading. Seems that the letter writers made a couple of errors re the constitution:
> 
> http://www.lawfareblog.com/2015/03/the-error-in-the-senators-letter-to-the-leaders-of-iran/


Thanks for the informative link, Patty.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Thanks for the informative link, Patty.


The letter in itself was the wrong thing to do, but to get the Constitution wrong at the same time? 
Sing along with Aretha and me:
Chain , chain , chain
Chain of fools.......


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I should make a correction in my post about the Senate ratifying treaties.
> This is a piece I have just finished reading. Seems that the letter writers made a couple of errors re the constitution:
> 
> http://www.lawfareblog.com/2015/03/the-error-in-the-senators-letter-to-the-leaders-of-iran/


That's very interesting. It seems most of us have had the wrong idea of the Senate's function with regard to treaties.

I hope KFN takes the time to read this short piece.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> I've heard some call those who accept money from the infamous brothers "Koch-suckers." Damn. Wish I had thought up that one! So expressive.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: There's always something new under the sun.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Just heard that there is a movement to prosecute this merry band under the Logan Act subjecting them to fine and possible 3 years in jail. Wouldn't that be grand?

Also Senator John McCain is among the 47 signers.

Iran has responded to them with a Civics lesson.



Huckleberry said:


> Fellow Liberals.
> 47 seems to be a magic number among the Republicans. It
> crashed Romney and hopefully now the 47 who send a letter to Iran. They will look like the biggest Idiots to other world leaders who are trying to negotiate with President Obama and Iran. Too bad Politics no longer will attract intelligent individuals, it is turning into a circus without animals but plenty of Clowns with the Donald as its Ring Leader. If this subject was not to serious, it would be super funny.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think it's terrible that those in congress felt they had to go to these lengths. Obama does NOT have the right to act without the approval of congress! If he had not overstepped his bounds, none of this would have happened.
> 
> This actually happened in the past. Nixon entered into an agreement without congressional approval and a democratic congress refused to honor the agreement. BOTH sides should follow the law!
> 
> http://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/03/09/the-senators-are-right-on-iran/


 :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Some state's governor (I've deliberately? forgotten which one) has decreed that "climate change," "global warming," etc be banned from use. Ta da. A lot can be accomplished with a magic wand.

I guess this is the reverse of their tactic to just keep yelling the soso until everyone believes it. Don't talk about it and it disappears.

Send in the butterfly nets.



DGreen said:


> At least the Steyers are trying to so something positive - like save the world by doing something about climate change. The Kochs are trying to destroy our government. Big difference.
> 
> Go ahead an demonize them. Liberals know the difference.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> since you are supporting the behavior of the 47 misguided, I hope that the males in your family are at an age where they still could be called to arms because that is how it may end if the negotiations fail. And if we enter new Wars, the draft will become a necessity. Our dear Soldiers have been used and abused all too much and it is time that those who support War, will fight them. Draft will become a necessity.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Votes count. Don't waste them.



Huckleberry said:


> sumpleby
> Thank you. The Republicans have a dire need to show how racist they are and let us, who have overcome such dastardly thoughts and behavior use the power we have and vote in droves next time around. Folks, there is a remedy for this, boots on our ground to the voting booths.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I do hope they pay for this traitorous behavior. They are way over the line, Sweet Jesus.



BrattyPatty said:


> Since when is it against Constitutional law to engage in peace talks ?
> Whatever he had brought back from the talks would have had to go through the houses to have it radified.
> But these 47 traitors couldn't wait for that. They went against the Logan Act twice. You should google it. They could get up to 3 years in the pokey.
> How convenient that they are holding up Lynch's approval for AG. No better time to pull a boner like this one.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I was impressed with the Iranian response.



Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> unfortunately if we don't speak up and loud, no one will listen. Our Citizens have become deaf to some degree and need to be wakened by shouts.
> I totally agree, major changes need to take place if we want to survive as a leading nation. It is most interesting to read the response from the Iranian Official, who took advantage of our higher education and knows our laws far better than the 47 dummies who wrote to Iran.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> BrattyPatty
> and we think we have problems with the Republicans in Washington? Far less then the Republicans who did not sign the letter to Iran. Actually they are throwing more and more power into our direction. All we have to do is take advantage of it at the Polls.


...or in the courts.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> um, yes, he does the power to act alone. It is call executive orders. So far he is one of the presidents who have used less EO's, than his predecessors. If Congress refuses to work, then he has every right to use them.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Thank heavens the country has President Obama in the White House.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> The
> 
> I know I sound like a broken record, but we STILL have a Congress that is doing nothing and hasn't done anything during President Obama's term. The President has to act when we have a Congress full of do-nothings.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I'm with you Cookie.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Has it not occurred to you that no wrong has been done yet? There is no treaty; there are talks, which I believe the Constitution permits. There are plans. So far the only wrong has been done by those 47 treasonous loons.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Isn't this a little like Jodi Arias saying, "my lover Travis Alexander forced me to stab him 27 times and then shoot him, because he made me so mad." Didn't work for her and I don't think it will help this merry band of traitors either.



Designer1234 said:


> kFN wrote
> 
> I think it's terrible that those in congress felt they had to go to these lengths. Obama does NOT have the right to act without the approval of congress! If he had not overstepped his bounds, none of this would have happened.
> ----------------------------
> What a croc! they felt the HAD TO go to these lengths.??? Come on!! no one forced them to do any of the things they have done to try to embarrass the President. They could have done some positive things instead of so many negatives. They deliberately showed the world that they would do ANYTHING NO MATTER WHAT to embarrass the President, and they deliberately are trying to make sure that the world hates Obama - however, if they succeed your country loses the respect of the world. They didn't have to do anything of the sort I just hope it works for the Liberals and I believe that it will. I hope that each time they do something like undermining him like they have that more and more Democrats vote against the Repulicans.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Come on! They're doing something. They're behaving like idiots, but at least it's something. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


They're giving the comedians something to work with.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Absolutely!!



BrattyPatty said:


> What a perfect time to start enforcing it, right?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> The letter in itself was the wrong thing to do, but to get the Constitution wrong at the same time?
> Sing along with Aretha and me:
> Chain , chain , chain
> Chain of fools.......


Singing and dancing. Chain of fools.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Some state's governor (I've deliberately? forgotten which one) has decreed that "climate change," "global warming," etc be banned from use. Ta da. A lot can be accomplished with a magic wand.
> 
> I guess this is the reverse of their tactic to just keep yelling the soso until everyone believes it. Don't talk about it and it disappears.
> 
> Send in the butterfly nets.


Florida. This is truly my favorite Rick. He was the first to insist on drug-testing welfare applicants. He got himself elected governor though he was a convicted felon. Now he's dropping the words "climate change," etc. And he looks like a skeleton. Also like Gollum.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Seems like the republicans may have seen the error of their ways (according to unnamed sources). Oh well, the headline looked good.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/10/republicans-admit-that-iran-letter-was-a-dumb-idea.html


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Seems like the republicans may have seen the error of their ways (according to unnamed sources). Oh well, the headline looked good.
> 
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/10/republicans-admit-that-iran-letter-was-a-dumb-idea.html


Contained in the article is this quote:

" ... the Obama administration and its Capitol Hill partisans are cynically trying to push the conversation away from policy, and towards a deeply political pie fight over presidential and congressional prerogatives, said a Senate Republican aide whose boss signed the letter"

Always the spin. The Obama administration did not make news by sending the ill-advised message. The repubs did. The conversation didn't go their way, so they're trying, once again, to blame Obama for something they did. Sickening.

Elsewhere the letter is characterized as being "light-hearted" and something of a joke. The amazing thing is, they evidently expect people to believe that. It was never a joke, and if it was, that would be *worse* than acting out of sincerely held beliefs. War is no laughing matter.

Ladies, it is clear to me that the reublicans have a new (but false), sense of power and are trying to exercise their muscles to prove they are in control now. Pretty reckless and petulant. Stay tuned for more of the same. There will be a stream of vetoes so I suggest earplugs.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> Some state's governor (I've deliberately? forgotten which one) has decreed that "climate change," "global warming," etc be banned from use. Ta da. A lot can be accomplished with a magic wand.
> 
> I guess this is the reverse of their tactic to just keep yelling the soso until everyone believes it. Don't talk about it and it disappears.
> 
> Send in the butterfly nets.


The Idiot in Florida. Do not learn his name. Save your neurons for better things.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ah yes. Land of the hanging chads. Thank you.



Poor Purl said:


> Florida. This is truly my favorite Rick. He was the first to insist on drug-testing welfare applicants. He got himself elected governor though he was a convicted felon. Now he's dropping the words "climate change," etc. And he looks like a skeleton. Also like Gollum.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> The
> 
> I know I sound like a broken record, but we STILL have a Congress that is doing nothing and hasn't done anything during President Obama's term. The President has to act when we have a Congress full of do-nothings.


cookiequeen
some things need to be said over and over and over again.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Has it not occurred to you that no wrong has been done yet? There is no treaty; there are talks, which I believe the Constitution permits. There are plans. So far the only wrong has been done by those 47 treasonous loons.


Poor Purl
she has not received that message yet - and of course never will. Her "suppliers" conveniently exclude some important information.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> BrattyPatty said:
> 
> 
> > What a perfect time to start enforcing it, right?[/quote
> ...


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> Isn't this a little like Jodi Arias saying, "my lover Travis Alexander forced me to stab him 27 times and then shoot him, because he made me so mad." Didn't work for her and I don't think it will help this merry band of traitors either.


damemary
some greenhorn is in Washington 2 mos and he is already hijacking 46 established guys. Are those 46 suffering from dementia or worse? Something is drastically wrong with them.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

It is sad when an Iranian Official needs to give lessons re. our Constitution and international law to our Politicians. Our University educated him well while our Politicians missed their lessons but somehow still graduated.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> damemary
> some greenhorn is in Washington 2 mos and he is already hijacking 46 established guys. Are those 46 suffering from dementia or worse? Something is drastically wrong with them.


This has been happening for a few years. One of the signers, Ted Cruz, did his own highjacking when he was elected a couple of years ago. The Republicans are terrified by the ultra-right and are knuckled under with remarkable ease.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> This has been happening for a few years. One of the signers, Ted Cruz, did his own highjacking when he was elected a couple of years ago. The Republicans are terrified by the ultra-right and are knuckled under with remarkable ease.


Otherwise known as Gutless Wonders.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> This has been happening for a few years. One of the signers, Ted Cruz, did his own highjacking when he was elected a couple of years ago. The Republicans are terrified by the ultra-right and are knuckled under with remarkable ease.


It's too bad to see what has become of that party. It's like watching the old Keystone Cops or "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> This has been happening for a few years. One of the signers, Ted Cruz, did his own highjacking when he was elected a couple of years ago. The Republicans are terrified by the ultra-right and are knuckled under with remarkable ease.


sumpleby
wonder who has what on whom. Why are the main stream Republicans so scared? They are still in the majority and if they want to survive, they need to get busy to stand their ground. Boots on the ground here for their cause is far more important than boots on the ground on foreign soil to protect someone-else's domain.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Florida. This is truly my favorite Rick. He was the first to insist on drug-testing welfare applicants. He got himself elected governor though he was a convicted felon. Now he's dropping the words "climate change," etc. And he looks like a skeleton. Also like Gollum.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Poor Purl
> she has not received that message yet - and of course never will. Her "suppliers" conveniently exclude some important information.


I don't think she's like that, Huck, but she does tend to look for stuff in all the wrong places.

An interesting Letter to the Editor in today's NYTimes:

To the Editor:

Re G.O.P. Senators Write to Tehran on Nuclear Pact (front page, March 10): The letter this week by 47 Republican senators to Iranian leaders informing them that any agreement on nuclear activities signed by President Obama could be reversed with the stroke of a pen by a future president shows a glaring disregard for American and international law.

*Starting with George Washington, presidents have signed thousands of executive agreements with other nations that have the force of law under the United States Constitution and international law.*

The Constitution has been construed by the Supreme Court as allowing the president to enter into such binding agreements as part of his executive powers. While such agreements in theory could be abrogated by an American president or a subsequent law, under international law such agreements would continue to be binding on the United States. The attempted breach would give rise to a charge that the United States was violating international law.

Senators, who are sworn to uphold the Constitution, should be more careful in making irresponsible statements about the United States international obligations.

ANDREW VORKINK
North Hampton, N.H.
The writer teaches international law at the University of New Hampshire School of Law.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/11/opinion/outrage-over-a-gop-letter-to-iran.html?ref=todayspaper

So much for the Senate having to ratify all treaties - apparently it's rarely done.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Otherwise known as Gutless Wonders.


Except for Mitch McConnell, the Chinless Wonder. :roll:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Except for Mitch McConnell, the Chinless Wonder. :roll:


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


Cheeky Blighter
Poor Purl
What were the Floridians thinking when they elected Rick Scott? There was nothing but bad news about him and they voted for him anyway. Had he been black, he would have been stoned. Hope his home is at the Water's Edge so it will be a dwelling some day as they have in Venice and its first floor will be up at about the 3rd level. He seems to think that if the term Climate Change is not being used, it won't happen.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Except for Mitch McConnell, the Chinless Wonder. :roll:


Yertle the Turtle!


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I don't think she's like that, Huck, but she does tend to look for stuff in all the wrong places.
> 
> An interesting Letter to the Editor in today's NYTimes:
> 
> ...


Poor Purl
Thank you, that is the same information I am receiving from different sources, most of them legal scholars. Goodness I am learning stuff I never dreamt of.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Contained in the article is this quote:
> 
> " ... the Obama administration and its Capitol Hill partisans are cynically trying to push the conversation away from policy, and towards a deeply political pie fight over presidential and congressional prerogatives, said a Senate Republican aide whose boss signed the letter"
> 
> ...


Here is what some newspapers in some red states have to say:
http://www.politicususa.com/2015/03/11/national-outrage-grows-22-newspaper-editorials-blast-senate-republican-letter-iran.html


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Yertle the Turtle!


Bratty Patty
To me, Mitch is repulsive.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Bratty Patty
> To me, Mitch is repulsive.


 Huck,
Me , too. He makes my skin crawl. He is not very popular in his state after this letter debacle, nor is Rand Paul. So this is the newly Republican controlled Senate? Sad, very sad indeed.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Seems like the republicans may have seen the error of their ways (according to unnamed sources). Oh well, the headline looked good.
> 
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/10/republicans-admit-that-iran-letter-was-a-dumb-idea.html


Thanks for sharing this, Wombat. Rachel Maddow had a related commentary tonight.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Cheeky Blighter
> Poor Purl
> What were the Floridians thinking when they elected Rick Scott? There was nothing but bad news about him and they voted for him anyway. Had he been black, he would have been stoned. Hope his home is at the Water's Edge so it will be a dwelling some day as they have in Venice and its first floor will be up at about the 3rd level. He seems to think that if the term Climate Change is not being used, it won't happen.


And that's why he's my favorite Rick.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Yertle the Turtle!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

I just read the link Wombat posted. This paragraph shocked the hell out of me:

"Republican aides were taken aback by the response to what what they thought was a lighthearted attempt to signal to Iran and the public that Congress should have a role in the ongoing nuclear discussions. Two GOP aides separately described their letter as a 'cheeky' reminder of the congressional branchs prerogatives."

Lighthearted?? Cheeky reminder? They are insane, the end result of that letter is that it will put us on the edge of war.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Thanks for sharing this, Wombat. Rachel Maddow had a related commentary tonight.


So Brat, are the republicans feeling contrite? There's so much buzz about this but I don't feel I'm getting anywhere fast about where the republicans really stand on the matter.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> I just read the link Wombat posted. This paragraph shocked the hell out of me:
> 
> "Republican aides were taken aback by the response to what what they thought was a lighthearted attempt to signal to Iran and the public that Congress should have a role in the ongoing nuclear discussions. Two GOP aides separately described their letter as a 'cheeky' reminder of the congressional branchs prerogatives."
> 
> Lighthearted?? Cheeky reminder? They are insane, the end result of that letter is that it will put us on the edge of war.


Cindy, that's why I'm questioning it's validity. Seems to be a bit of a beat up but having said that, nothing would surprise me after this wacko behaviour of Congress. It's too way out even for a movie script!

With all due respect of course.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> So Brat, are the republicans feeling contrite? There's so much buzz about this but I don't feel I'm getting anywhere fast about where the republicans really stand on the matter.


After seeing the general reaction from Americans of both parties, Mc Cain said they should have used other measures. The rest are trying to make a joke out of it. Comments like "this Admin has no sense of humor". They changed their vitriol to basically "it was done in a lighthearted fashion", as if in a joke. Too bad it backfired on them.
Tom Cotton is standing beside his reasoning which is completely unreasonable. If he understood the constitution and foreign policy , he might have a leg to stand on. But at this point he is sticking to his guns saying that the congress has to approve treaties. There won't be a treaty Marco Rubio, and Rand Paul can kiss their presidential hopes goodbye.
They have lost all credibility with the country and their own republican colleagues in the lower house.
See what happens when you let Republicans become the majority?
So far I have only witnessed the same old" let's obstruct Obama." This time there will be a high price to pay for what they did. This was not just talks between the US and Iran. 5 other countries are involved in these talks and are very angered by these antics. Leave it to republicans to mess things up. If we do end up going to war, then I say put all 47 of those treasonous bastards in the front lines.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Here is what some newspapers in some red states have to say:
> http://www.politicususa.com/2015/03/11/national-outrage-grows-22-newspaper-editorials-blast-senate-republican-letter-iran.html


My favorite part of the editorial:

It is not an understatement to suggest that the outrage over the Senate Republican letter is national. In this time of great partisan divide, Republicans managed to unify the country with an act that was as blatantly unpatriotic as it was blindingly stupid. The tea partiers who turned the House of Representatives into a three ring circus have invaded the Senate, and the letter to Iran is their most high profile bit of handiwork.

Republicans are desperately trying to convert Hillary Clintons emails into a 2016 campaign story, but the irony is that with their Iran letter, *the Senate GOP might have just handed Democrats a powerful issue that could put an end to their fragile Senate majority*

Pretty much covers it, in my opinion.

Since the offending senators are being so righteous about it, one wonders what their next stunt will be. They don't seem to know the old truth - when you find yourself in a hole, it's wise to stop digging.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> After seeing the general reaction from Americans of both parties, Mc Cain said they should have used other measures. The rest are trying to make a joke out of it. Comments like "this Admin has no sense of humor". They changed their vitriol to basically "it was done in a lighthearted fashion", as if in a joke. Too bad it backfired on them. Tom Cotton is standing beside his reasoning which is completely unreasonable. If he understood the constitution and foreign policy , he might have a leg to stand on. But at this point he is sticking to his guns saying that the Senate has to approve treaties. There is no treaty being discussed.
> They had better come up with something better than that. MArco Rubio, and Rand Paul can kiss their presidential hopes goodbye.


Nu? Why is everyone complaining? This is the best thing to happen to the democrats. Keep the insanity coming, let the public see that the inmates are running the asylum and hopefully a dem will slip right back into position next year.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> Nu? Why is everyone complaining? This is the best thing to happen to the democrats. Keep the insanity coming, let the public see that the inmates are running the asylum and hopefully a dem will slip right back into position next year.


Because what they did was way out of bounds and they should be outed.
As I said before It's not just the US they emabarrassed, but France, Germany, The UK, China...to boot. After their letter, they can compromise the good faith pacts we have with these countriesI
It could be the best thing for Dems in 2016, but they really did a disservice to our country.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Because what they did was way out of bounds and they should be outed.
> As I said before It's not just the US they emabarrassed, but France, Germany, The UK, China...to boot. After their letter, they can compromise the good faith pacts we have with these countriesI
> It could be the best thing for Dems in 2016, but they really did a disservice to our country.


Bratty Patty
Now we have it on record, 47 of our Politicians are official Jokers and are wild. After an onslaught of bad Press around the Country, these Jokers formulated a letter stating that it was just a Joke - the letter to Iran that is. Really?
Global security is considered a joke by these freaks? We need to find a fast remedy to dismiss these Scoundrels. Actually, Idiots is a better description. Officials of Ferguson had to resign for their misdeeds and so should these Representatives. They certainly do not represent any good Citizens nor our country at large. They are not worthy of being Fellow Citizens. It is time that we scream to high Heaven for the resignation of these Idiots. National/Global Security is a serious business and these Bastards should not be let near any decision making. They are freaking insane.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> My favorite part of the editorial:
> 
> It is not an understatement to suggest that the outrage over the Senate Republican letter is national. In this time of great partisan divide, Republicans managed to unify the country with an act that was as blatantly unpatriotic as it was blindingly stupid. The tea partiers who turned the House of Representatives into a three ring circus have invaded the Senate, and the letter to Iran is their most high profile bit of handiwork.
> 
> ...


DGreen
At least the Press is focusing on this horrid event. I welcome the avalanche of responses. We need to plaster 
these printings all over the GOP signs at the next elections. If this dastardly behavior does not scare the folks, nothing will. 
How lucky the 47 are living today. In times past they would have would up in front of a firing squad and without much delay.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

*The repubs are now BLAMING OBAMA FOR THE LETTER TO IRAN. *

Former New York Gov. George Pataki (R), appearing at a presidential forum hosted by the International Association of Fire Fighters, conceded that he believed foreign policy to be "prerogative of the president." But even within that construct, he added, Obama was to blame for Senate Republicans trying to undermine his talks with Iran.

How quickly their balls shrink when there's public outcry over their actions.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/10/gop-obama-cotton-letter_n_6843204.html


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> Bratty Patty
> Now we have it on record, 47 of our Politicians are official Jokers and are wild. After an onslaught of bad Press around the Country, these Jokers formulated a letter stating that it was just a Joke - the letter to Iran that is. Really?
> Global security is considered a joke by these freaks? We need to find a fast remedy to dismiss these Scoundrels. Actually, Idiots is a better description. Officials of Ferguson had to resign for their misdeeds and so should these Representatives. They certainly do not represent any good Citizens nor our country at large. They are not worthy of being Fellow Citizens. It is time that we scream to high Heaven for the resignation of these Idiots. National/Global Security is a serious business and these Bastards should not be let near any decision making. They are freaking insane.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: What she said.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> At least the Press is focusing on this horrid event. I welcome the avalanche of responses. We need to plaster
> these printings all over the GOP signs at the next elections. If this dastardly behavior does not scare the folks, nothing will.
> How lucky the 47 are living today. In times past they would have would up in front of a firing squad and without much delay.


<<<whispering....the good old days?>>>>>


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> After seeing the general reaction from Americans of both parties, Mc Cain said they should have used other measures. The rest are trying to make a joke out of it. Comments like "this Admin has no sense of humor". They changed their vitriol to basically "it was done in a lighthearted fashion", as if in a joke. Too bad it backfired on them.
> Tom Cotton is standing beside his reasoning which is completely unreasonable. If he understood the constitution and foreign policy , he might have a leg to stand on. But at this point he is sticking to his guns saying that the congress has to approve treaties. There won't be a treaty Marco Rubio, and Rand Paul can kiss their presidential hopes goodbye.
> They have lost all credibility with the country and their own republican colleagues in the lower house.
> See what happens when you let Republicans become the majority?
> So far I have only witnessed the same old" let's obstruct Obama." This time there will be a high price to pay for what they did. This was not just talks between the US and Iran. 5 other countries are involved in these talks and are very angered by these antics. Leave it to republicans to mess things up. If we do end up going to war, then I say put all 47 of those treasonous bastards in the front lines.


Thanks for clarifying Brat. You've made more sense of all of this, as have the other ladies, than anything I've read elsewhere. I only hope that the next President isn't treated as appallingly as President Obama has.

Just in the last weeks he's had Netanyahu speak to congress without White House approval; he's marched with supporters of civil rights in Selma, made a magnificent speech and felt the distress of the attack which befell the men and women who marched 50 years ago and now he's enduring this letter sent to Iran AND Iran's rational response. How on earth does the man stay calm, gracious and sane?

The next president, whomever they may be, have the largest shoes to fill. Just hope they can without getting stonewalled as President Obama has been.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Nu? Why is everyone complaining? This is the best thing to happen to the democrats. Keep the insanity coming, let the public see that the inmates are running the asylum and hopefully a dem will slip right back into position next year.


But it's the collateral damage that's most damaging. This has given Iran a massive stake in the current negotiations where they've identified, and with good reason, the level to which the turmoil of American politics has reached. That has to be hugely embarrassing to the government and mark my words, Iran will not forget this. Ever.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm afraid it's gone too far. There is much to correct, and no statesman/woman to do it. Iran and the remaining Middle East have been treated to our disgraceful tactics. The Ayatollah had some comments this morning.



Wombatnomore said:


> Thanks for clarifying Brat. You've made more sense of all of this, as have the other ladies, than anything I've read elsewhere. I only hope that the next President isn't treated as appallingly as President Obama has.
> 
> Just in the last weeks he's had Netanyahu speak to congress without White House approval; he's marched with supporters of civil rights in Selma, made a magnificent speech and felt the distress of the attack which befell the men and women who marched 50 years ago and now he's enduring this letter sent to Iran AND Iran's rational response. How on earth does the man stay calm, gracious and sane?
> 
> The next president, whomever they may be, have the largest shoes to fill. Just hope they can without getting stonewalled as President Obama has been.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> *The repubs are now BLAMING OBAMA FOR THE LETTER TO IRAN. *
> 
> Former New York Gov. George Pataki (R), appearing at a presidential forum hosted by the International Association of Fire Fighters, conceded that he believed foreign policy to be "prerogative of the president." But even within that construct, he added, Obama was to blame for Senate Republicans trying to undermine his talks with Iran.
> 
> ...


And how quick they are to cry "The Devil made me do it!"


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> But it's the collateral damage that's most damaging. This has given Iran a massive stake in the current negotiations where they've identified, and with good reason, the level to which the turmoil of American politics has reached. That has to be hugely embarrassing to the government and mark my words, Iran will not forget this. Ever.


Sadly true.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> But it's the collateral damage that's most damaging. This has given Iran a massive stake in the current negotiations where they've identified, and with good reason, the level to which the turmoil of American politics has reached. That has to be hugely embarrassing to the government and mark my words, Iran will not forget this. Ever.


We need to be sure the American people don't forget, either. Especially during the elections.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> We need to be sure the American people don't forget, either. Especially during the elections.


The memory of the American people is short. I don't know whether voters can hold a thought for 2 months, let alone 2 years. So you're right: we have to keep this memory alive.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> The memory of the American people is short. I don't know whether voters can hold a thought for 2 months, let alone 2 years. So you're right: we have to keep this memory alive.;


The (short-term) memory of voters was practically it's own subject when I studied politics. I typed part of a thesis on that very subject for a doctoral student back in the '80's. Oy vey!


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> We need to be sure the American people don't forget, either. Especially during the elections.


DGreen
Voting is WE THE PEOPLE's Power and we need to use it. We should not fight with guns as the Republicans always want, we need to fight with voices at the voting booths.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> Voting is WE THE PEOPLE's Power and we need to use it. We should not fight with guns as the Republicans always want, we need to fight with voices at the voting booths.


That is precisely why I am deeply involved in local politics, and the Democrats in my community are passionate about getting out the vote by pounding the pavement and speaking up (almost daily) in our local paper. I wake up every morning and ask myself what I can do to defeat the repubs - then get to work. Seriously. I work EVERY day on my upcoming fundraiser because we are building a "war chest" to use in the 2016 elections.

Well, today I'm headed for Phoenix. I'll work twice as hard tomorrow! I'm outta here.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> Voting is WE THE PEOPLE's Power and we need to use it. We should not fight with guns as the Republicans always want, we need to fight with voices at the voting booths.


Don't forget that Hills is a hawkish type. Wish the Dems could come up with at least one alternative.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Seems now, that the letter to Iran was "lighthearted" and "cheeky" and merely a joke, according to aides of some of the 47 senators,one of whom said the administration has no sense of humor....

The republicans can't seem to keep from falling on their faces.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

If people are that dumb, I give up. I hear Panama is nice.



Poor Purl said:


> The memory of the American people is short. I don't know whether voters can hold a thought for 2 months, let alone 2 years. So you're right: we have to keep this memory alive.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> Seems now, that the letter to Iran was "lighthearted" and "cheeky" and merely a joke, according to aides of some of the 47 senators,one of whom said the administration has no sense of humor....
> 
> The republicans can't seem to keep from falling on their faces.


Well, they are two faced, do you think they have one face left?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Well, they are two faced, do you think they have one face left?


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> Seems now, that the letter to Iran was "lighthearted" and "cheeky" and merely a joke, according to aides of some of the 47 senators,one of whom said the administration has no sense of humor....
> 
> The republicans can't seem to keep from falling on their faces.


sumpleby
"lighthearted" playing with international security? Nuts they are and nothing less and racist to the core. I am sure they think that if they make the life of our First black President sheer Hell, few blacks will run in the future. Honestly? It is even more of an incentive to get into Office.
How kind of you "falling on their faces". Falling off the cliff seems a more appropriate description. I am just so glad that we have tremendous talent in the wings for a number of future elections.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> I just read the link Wombat posted. This paragraph shocked the hell out of me:
> 
> "Republican aides were taken aback by the response to what what they thought was a lighthearted attempt to signal to Iran and the public that Congress should have a role in the ongoing nuclear discussions. Two GOP aides separately described their letter as a 'cheeky' reminder of the congressional branchs prerogatives."
> 
> Lighthearted?? Cheeky reminder? They are insane, the end result of that letter is that it will put us on the edge of war.


I'm cheeky and lighthearted. Those fools do not have a clue what a dangerous world we live in. They are pathetically ill equipped for the offices they hold. I hope they don't get us into WWIII. Then there is the Christian right they may be courting trying to hasten armageddon and maybe they want to ride the bombs right into kingdom come. Either way they are all traitors.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I think if they want a war then we should send all 47 of the treasonous idiots to the front line. McCain can lead them into battle.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

DGreen said:


> My favorite part of the editorial:
> 
> It is not an understatement to suggest that the outrage over the Senate Republican letter is national. In this time of great partisan divide, Republicans managed to unify the country with an act that was as blatantly unpatriotic as it was blindingly stupid. The tea partiers who turned the House of Representatives into a three ring circus have invaded the Senate, and the letter to Iran is their most high profile bit of handiwork.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I had to stop following the news so closely. How do you guys listen and not get sick?


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> I had to stop following the news so closely. How do you guys listen and not get sick?


Sometime I do get sick, but most often I am angry, amused, flabbergasted or flummoxed. we have to keep an eye on these guys so we won't be blindsided....


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> Sometime I do get sick, but most often I am angry, amused, flabbergasted or flummoxed. we have to keep an eye on these guys so we won't be blindsided....


yeah.

You guys have become my major news source. Better than most.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> I had to stop following the news so closely. How do you guys listen and not get sick?


I take a break by watching the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) and watch our news up here, about fires, and train wrecks and different crimes and the weather and a lot of good things too. I have started to avoid the American news as I just hate what is happening and I believe so much of it is deliberate. I can't imagine what it would be like for all of you whose country depends on solving your problems. My heart is down there but I am helpless to change it. YOu will all change it because you are dedicated to changing it. My hat is off to all of you who put your money where your mouth is and you think and discuss and challenge and then you fight for what you believe in.

You WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE - because you think, and question and learn and then you act.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I think if they want a war then we should send all 47 of the treasonous idiots to the front line. McCain can lead them into battle.


Bratty Patty
Let us keep that in mind and throw it out there frequently. The Europeans are getting headaches from shaking their heads over this unbelievable behavior. At least we learn more and more about these Traitors.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> Bratty Patty
> Let us keep that in mind and throw it out there frequently. The Europeans are getting headaches from shaking their heads over this unbelievable behavior. At least we learn more and more about these Traitors.


All racially motivated.

Loved Chris Matthews tonight mentioning Obama and Jim Crow in the same sentence.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I take a break by watching the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) and watch our news up here, about fires, and train wrecks and different crimes and the weather and a lot of good things too. I have started to avoid the American news as I just hate what is happening and I believe so much of it is deliberate. I can't imagine what it would be like for all of you whose country depends on solving your problems. My heart is down there but I am helpless to change it. YOu will all change it because you are dedicated to changing it. My hat is off to all of you who put your money where your mouth is and you think and discuss and challenge and then you fight for what you believe in.
> 
> You WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE - because you think, and question and learn and then you act.


Designer1234
THANK YOU dear Friend. I am always ready to fight for what is just and fair. Too many People during my Lifetime have suffered at the hands of a few and I will do everything to fight against brutality, unfairness and injustice. Hypocrisy is another issue I have a problem with.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I'm cheeky and lighthearted. Those fools do not have a clue what a dangerous world we live in. They are pathetically ill equipped for the offices they hold. I hope they don't get us into WWIII. Then there is the Christian right they may be courting trying to hasten armageddon and maybe they want to ride the bombs right into kingdom come. Either way they are all traitors.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think we must be sure not to let this traitorous behavior be forgotten. Bazinga!



BrattyPatty said:


> I think if they want a war then we should send all 47 of the treasonous idiots to the front line. McCain can lead them into battle.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Pepto Bismol.



SQM said:


> I had to stop following the news so closely. How do you guys listen and not get sick?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> Sometime I do get sick, but most often I am angry, amused, flabbergasted or flummoxed. we have to keep an eye on these guys so we won't be blindsided....


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I take a break by watching the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) and watch our news up here, about fires, and train wrecks and different crimes and the weather and a lot of good things too. I have started to avoid the American news as I just hate what is happening and I believe so much of it is deliberate. I can't imagine what it would be like for all of you whose country depends on solving your problems. My heart is down there but I am helpless to change it. YOu will all change it because you are dedicated to changing it. My hat is off to all of you who put your money where your mouth is and you think and discuss and challenge and then you fight for what you believe in.
> 
> You WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE - because you think, and question and learn and then you act.


Thanks for the kind words. We try to the last breath.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> That is precisely why I am deeply involved in local politics, and the Democrats in my community are passionate about getting out the vote by pounding the pavement and speaking up (almost daily) in our local paper. I wake up every morning and ask myself what I can do to defeat the repubs - then get to work. Seriously. I work EVERY day on my upcoming fundraiser because we are building a "war chest" to use in the 2016 elections.
> 
> Well, today I'm headed for Phoenix. I'll work twice as hard tomorrow! I'm outta here.


Truly, you have to be congratulated in the highest possible way Green. A key to all capital cities wouldn't come close.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Truly, you have to be congratulated in the highest possible way Green. A key to all capital cities wouldn't come close.


You are too kind, Wombat. You can keep the keys to the cities - I just want to overturn Citizens United!

On a lighter note, my day was spectacular, wonderful and joyous.

I had the distinct pleasure of sharing lunch with our friend, Damemary.

Hubby is off to NASCAR, so, being footloose and fancy free for a few days, Dame and I arranged to meet at a nice little restaurant in Tempe. Quiet and pleasant, sitting by a little pond with ducks, pigeons and turtles, we whiled away several delightful hours, getting to know each other a little and solving the problems of the world and KP.

I have attached a photo of the view from our table, but alas, Dame has asked me not to publish a photo of her in the interest of security. (I think she just wants to maintain an aura of mystery). The photo I've posted is in honor of all the KP ladies (well, maybe not ALL) we love and treasure, as we drink a toast to all of you and your intelligence, tolerance, contributions to interesting conversations and above all, your caring support of us and each other.

Dame is as lovely as we all imagine, with blue, blue eyes and a beautiful smile. She's one smart cookie, too. What fun it was to meet her.

Other photos were taken on my drive home. Phoenix is at about 1,200 ft. elevation, while I live at 5,000 ft. The drive crosses low desert, high desert, pinon/juniper forest and finally, pine forest. The road has almost no straight stretches, so navigating the sweeping curves and uphill grades at 65 (or more) mph in my little Mazda is a dream. One can see the rising landscape as I left town. Leaving the valley after a brief visit with my daughter, I was treated to a spectacular Arizona sunset and made it home before the last streaks of light left the sky.

Lovely. Simply lovely. Love you Dame!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Would I ever have loved to meet you both. We had such a wonderful time each winter in Arizona. We were in Payson with Pat's hiking group for 3 years for a long weekend each year. great memories. I made a wall hanging of the same type of picture as the bottom one \ I would love to meet both of you. 

Our home is full of southwestern wall hangings, pottery I made, stained glass of the superstition Mountains (pat climbed all over Arizona with the hiking group. So many memories, It would have been the icing on the cake!


All the blossoms are out here - ( we never get warm enough in Calgary to plant until May 24 so it is great to see the blossoms and flowering plants in bloom all over the place here. I absolutely fell in love with the desert (mind you we were always there in the winter and went home before it got too hot. We spent a month in Usery Park, Camping, even though we had a trailer park booked. I painted steadily for the whole month. I am so glad you got together. Shirley


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Would I ever have loved to meet you both. We had such a wonderful time each winter in Arizona. We were in Payson with Pat's hiking group for 3 years for a long weekend each year. great memories. I made a wall hanging of the same type of picture as the bottom one \ I would love to meet both of you.
> 
> Our home is full of southwestern wall hangings, pottery I made, stained glass of the superstition Mountains (pat climbed all over Arizona with the hiking group. So many memories, It would have been the icing on the cake!
> 
> All the blossoms are out here - ( we never get warm enough in Calgary to plant until May 24 so it is great to see the blossoms and flowering plants in bloom all over the place here. I absolutely fell in love with the desert (mind you we were always there in the winter and went home before it got too hot. We spent a month in Usery Park, Camping, even though we had a trailer park booked. I painted steadily for the whole month. I am so glad you got together. Shirley


I wish you could have been with us, too! The photo of the road was taken about 4 miles north of Usery Park on the road to Saguaro Lake. The road is the Bush Highway. (Not named after any president - it's been there far too long).

We had unusual weather early in the winter and a subsequent bloom of poppies in the desert. No poppies today, though it is the time of year they normally appear. The desert brittlebush is blooming, along with lupin and some daisies and the ocotillo. Some stretches of highway were brilliant with the yellow of the brittlebush, which is about 24-36" high and is commonly found very close to the pavement verge. It has long stalks of yellow flowers. One of my favorite desert plants - my poor daughter is allergic and curses them. The citrus are beginning to bloom with their heavenly scent. The strength of the frangrance is almost intoxicating.

Arizona is so beautiful. In spite of some of our problems and crazy government, I would never live anywhere else. Seriously - look at that sunset!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I am so jealous of your day. You are quite attractive, Bright Green, and My Grace Kelly's arms and hands are just what I imagined. 

Your day sounds idyllic. 

If I ever visit my Evil Twin in Phoenix, would I have the chance to meet you both?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> I am so jealous of your day. You are quite attractive, Bright Green, and My Grace Kelly's arms and hands are just what I imagined.
> 
> Your day sounds idyllic.
> 
> If I ever visit my Evil Twin in Phoenix, would I have the chance to meet you both?


YES!

Well, I can't speak for the Dame, but let me know if you are in town and we'll celebrate! I have a car and I know how to use it to "get to town."


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It was a wonderful day. We knew each other right away although we didn't plan it. Serendipity. We toasted the rest, so know you were remembered.

I feel like I met a powerhouse. DGreen is all twinkling eyes and energy. I'd love seeing her run for office.

hugs from Dame Mystery



DGreen said:


> You are too kind, Wombat. You can keep the keys to the cities - I just want to overturn Citizens United!
> 
> On a lighter note, my day was spectacular, wonderful and joyous.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And you have a special place in our hearts. I feel like we're all together in spirit.



Designer1234 said:


> Would I ever have loved to meet you both. We had such a wonderful time each winter in Arizona. We were in Payson with Pat's hiking group for 3 years for a long weekend each year. great memories. I made a wall hanging of the same type of picture as the bottom one \ I would love to meet both of you.
> 
> Our home is full of southwestern wall hangings, pottery I made, stained glass of the superstition Mountains (pat climbed all over Arizona with the hiking group. So many memories, It would have been the icing on the cake!
> 
> All the blossoms are out here - ( we never get warm enough in Calgary to plant until May 24 so it is great to see the blossoms and flowering plants in bloom all over the place here. I absolutely fell in love with the desert (mind you we were always there in the winter and went home before it got too hot. We spent a month in Usery Park, Camping, even though we had a trailer park booked. I painted steadily for the whole month. I am so glad you got together. Shirley


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Same here. The desert and mountains touch me. May everyone have a place to live that they love.



DGreen said:


> I wish you could have been with us, too! The photo of the road was taken about 4 miles north of Usery Park on the road to Saguaro Lake. The road is the Bush Highway. (Not named after any president - it's been there far too long).
> 
> We had unusual weather early in the winter and a subsequent bloom of poppies in the desert. No poppies today, though it is the time of year they normally appear. The desert brittlebush is blooming, along with lupin and some daisies and the ocotillo. Some stretches of highway were brilliant with the yellow of the brittlebush, which is about 24-36" high and is commonly found very close to the pavement verge. It has long stalks of yellow flowers. One of my favorite desert plants - my poor daughter is allergic and curses them. The citrus are beginning to bloom with their heavenly scent. The strength of the frangrance is almost intoxicating.
> 
> Arizona is so beautiful. In spite of some of our problems and crazy government, I would never live anywhere else. Seriously - look at that sunset!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sometimes these days just fall into place; other times it's impossible. I'll look forward to it.



DGreen said:


> YES!
> 
> Well, I can't speak for the Dame, but let me know if you are in town and we'll celebrate! I have a car and I know how to use it to "get to town."


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You are too kind, Wombat. You can keep the keys to the cities - I just want to overturn Citizens United!
> 
> On a lighter note, my day was spectacular, wonderful and joyous.
> 
> ...


A day of joy most deserved by both you and the Mysterious Dame! I too would have been thrilled to be there and yet from your description of the day, the spirit of it easy to feel. How lovely!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I'm cheeky and lighthearted. Those fools do not have a clue what a dangerous world we live in. They are pathetically ill equipped for the offices they hold. I hope they don't get us into WWIII. Then there is the Christian right they may be courting trying to hasten armageddon and maybe they want to ride the bombs right into kingdom come. Either way they are all traitors.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Do these facts help clarify Cotton's actions?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You are too kind, Wombat. You can keep the keys to the cities - I just want to overturn Citizens United!
> 
> On a lighter note, my day was spectacular, wonderful and joyous.
> 
> ...


This is so cool! I wish I could have been there. A beautiful setting to meet up for the first time. I'd love to be able to meet up with others, but I won't be traveling this year. We had really wanted to go down to the Sedonna area this year, but with having Max, and the babies coming, we'll be homebound. I've met Ann Degray, and attend her knitting group, so I've met a few others but none of you guys. Maybe someday. Thanks for sharing. It was fun!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> This is so cool! I wish I could have been there. A beautiful setting to meet up for the first time. I'd love to be able to meet up with others, but I won't be traveling this year. We had really wanted to go down to the Sedonna area this year, but with having Max, and the babies coming, we'll be homebound. I've met Ann Degray, and attend her knitting group, so I've met a few others but none of you guys. Maybe someday. Thanks for sharing. It was fun!


Next time you can make it to Sedona, and if you have time, let me know. I would be so happy to meet you there. The babies and Max won't be tiny forever - something to look forward to.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Next time you can make it to Sedona, and if you have time, let me know. I would be so happy to meet you there. The babies and Max won't be tiny forever - something to look forward to.


My husband's making plans for next summer. I hope it will work out. I'd love a meet up.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Do these facts help clarify Cotton's actions?


Good one, D!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> My husband's making plans for next summer. I hope it will work out. I'd love a meet up.


I'll bet that by next summer you're going to need a vacation.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You are too kind, Wombat. You can keep the keys to the cities - I just want to overturn Citizens United!
> 
> On a lighter note, my day was spectacular, wonderful and joyous.
> 
> ...


DGreen
Thank you for the lovely pictures. Brings back most pleasant memories. Would have loved to be in the presence of you two.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Do these facts help clarify Cotton's actions?


DGreen
it sure gives an insight into his behavior. What is now crystal clear is that he is the puppet for many. Wondered how a greenhorn like him had the guts to act as he did. He has no choice, the money Mafioso has him in their grip.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> it sure gives an insight into his behavior. What is now crystal clear is that he is the puppet for many. Wondered how a greenhorn like him had the guts to act as he did. He has no choice, the money Mafioso has him in their grip.


*OVERTURN CITIZENS UNITED*

It is the root cause of so many of our problems!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> Thank you for the lovely pictures. Brings back most pleasant memories. Would have loved to be in the presence of you two.


We were thinking of all of your wonderful ladies. We could have quite a time if we could arrange a mass meet-up. Hugs, laughter, tears, more hugs...


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Do these facts help clarify Cotton's actions?


That explains a lot! What a weasel.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I'll bet that by next summer you're going to need a vacation.


I need a vacation, NOW. Haha!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> We were thinking of all of your wonderful ladies. We could have quite a time if we could arrange a mass meet-up. Hugs, laughter, tears, more hugs...


That would be fun! I'm right in the middle of the country???


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I knitted this for Max. It's a topsy turvy. He loves rabbits but as it turned out, he likes the cat, more.

That cat picture looks sad. It's not that bad.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I knitted this for Max. It's a topsy turvy. He loves rabbits but as it turned out, he likes the cat, more.
> 
> That cat picture looks sad. It's not that bad.


With all you are doing, when do you find time to knit, 3 a.m.???


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

This is what I'm working on now, for the quads. Pink, lavender, blue and green.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> With all you are doing, when do you find time to knit, 3 a.m.???


After dinner and on weekends. I find I'm getting rusty though. I cant knit as fast as i used to.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> This is what I'm working on now, for the quads. Pink, lavender, blue and green.


Adorable!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You're a marvel. I feel like a slug. Thanks for the inspiration.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> This is what I'm working on now, for the quads. Pink, lavender, blue and green.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

DGreen said:


> *OVERTURN CITIZENS UNITED*
> 
> It is the root cause of so many of our problems!


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

damemary said:


> You're a marvel. I feel like a slug. Thanks for the inspiration.


I knit like a slug. I'm soooo slow. But never fear. Things get done eventually and my yarn lasts a long time.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Hi, Cheeky! Good to see you.
Thanks for posting the pro-Warren and anti-Koch sentiments.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Hi, Cheeky! Good to see you.
> Thanks for posting the pro-Warren and anti-Koch sentiments.


Your welcome!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Do these facts help clarify Cotton's actions?


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I knitted this for Max. It's a topsy turvy. He loves rabbits but as it turned out, he likes the cat, more.
> 
> That cat picture looks sad. It's not that bad.


They're so cute! He'll love them.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> This is what I'm working on now, for the quads. Pink, lavender, blue and green.


Fabulous! Honestly, you're a powerhouse to get all this done and everything else you do. I'm in awe!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> You're a marvel. I feel like a slug. Thanks for the inspiration.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: Well, you didn't look slug-like from what I saw of you in Green's photo!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> I knit like a slug. I'm soooo slow. But never fear. Things get done eventually and my yarn lasts a long time.


What, with no arms? I'd like to see that!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Always positive. That's Cookie.



cookiequeen said:


> I knit like a slug. I'm soooo slow. But never fear. Things get done eventually and my yarn lasts a long time.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Greenie has that affect on people. Lovely stress-free day.



Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: Well, you didn't look slug-like from what I saw of you in Green's photo!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> I knit like a slug. I'm soooo slow. But never fear. Things get done eventually and my yarn lasts a long time.


I'm finding it difficult to get motivated when I have to knit four of everything. It's a lot more fun to choose new things every time. Later, things won't have to be matchy. Right now, it's the novelty.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> They're so cute! He'll love them.


Actually, it's one toy. The cat fits up into the rabbit and then you turn it inside out, so the rabbit is inside the cat.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> What, with no arms? I'd like to see that!


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Happy Pi Day, everyone!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Camacho said:


> Happy Pi Day, everyone!


Hi, Comacho. Speaking of Pi day! yesterday I was at Costco and they were giving away little samples of their cherry pie. Someone had told me how good their pies are, so I tried a bite. Yuck! I didn't even finish the little sample!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> Hi, Comacho. Speaking of Pi day! yesterday I was at Costco and they were giving away little samples of their cherry pie. Someone had told me how good their pies are, so I tried a bite. Yuck! I didn't even finish the little sample!


You ARE a smart Cookie. Costco does a lot of things really well, but pies? Not so much.

Someone brought a Costco pumpkin pie to a gathering I attended and the crust was a slab of unbaked, tough dough. Ewww. In a former life I owned a pie shop/bakery so I know the difference. People have been eating Sara Lee for so long they'll eat anything and call it good.


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

To remember the digits of pi, here is a poem by M Keith, in honor of Pi Day:
Poe, E.: Near a Raven.
Midnights so dreary, tired and weary.
Silently pondering volumes extolling all by-now obsolete lore.
During my rather long nap-- the weirdest tap!
An ominous vibrating sound disturbing my chamber's antedoor.
'This,' I whispered quietly,'I ignore.'
Perfectly, the intellect remembers: the ghostly fires a glittering ember.
Inflamed by lightning's outburst, windows cast penumbras upon this floor.
Sorrowful, as one mistreated, unhappy thoughts I heeded:
That inimitable lesson in elegance -- Lenore -- 
Is delighting, exciting....nevermore.

*Words with 10 letters represent the digit 0, and those with 11 or more letters are taken to represent two digits.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Camacho said:


> To remember the digits of pi, here is a poem by M Keith, in honor of Pi Day:
> Poe, E.: Near a Raven.
> Midnights so dreary, tired and weary.
> Silently pondering volumes extolling all by-now obsolete lore.
> ...


I would have to write that down. Might as well write down the digits...


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You ARE a smart Cookie. Costco does a lot of things really well, but pies? Not so much.
> 
> Someone brought a Costco pumpkin pie to a gathering I attended and the crust was a slab of unbaked, tough dough. Ewww. In a former life I owned a pie shop/bakery so I know the difference. People have been eating Sara Lee for so long they'll eat anything and call it good.


We all know homemade pies are the best. Is there any commercially made pie that can hold a candle to a really good homemade one? And if it is homemade by a good friend or loved one, we are much more forgiving of mistakes than we are of mistakes in those pies we have paid for. And I would not trust the corners a commercial bakery might cut in order to sell a lot of pies for not much money. Does it use Crisco instead of butter or lard in the crust? What sorts of other gunk are they putting in? Does it use high fructose corn syrup instead of sugar? (Grandma did used to use Karo syrup for some things, but that was not "high fructose" corn syrup.) As I type, David is making a blueberry pie, to be served at 1:59.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Camacho said:


> We all know homemade pies are the best. Is there any commercially made pie that can hold a candle to a really good homemade one? And if it is homemade by a good friend or loved one, we are much more forgiving of mistakes than we are of mistakes in those pies we have paid for. And I would not trust the corners a commercial bakery might cut in order to sell a lot of pies for not much money. Does it use Crisco instead of butter or lard in the crust? What sorts of other gunk are they putting in? Does it use high fructose corn syrup instead of sugar? (Grandma did used to use Karo syrup for some things, but that was not "high fructose" corn syrup.) As I type, David is making a blueberry pie, to be served at 1:59.


Lucky you! Unfortunately, I know some people who truly have no idea what a homemade pie is. They've been deprived!


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I knitted this for Max. It's a topsy turvy. He loves rabbits but as it turned out, he likes the cat, more.
> 
> That cat picture looks sad. It's not that bad.


Knitter from Nebraska
that is adorable.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Camacho said:


> We all know homemade pies are the best. Is there any commercially made pie that can hold a candle to a really good homemade one? And if it is homemade by a good friend or loved one, we are much more forgiving of mistakes than we are of mistakes in those pies we have paid for. And I would not trust the corners a commercial bakery might cut in order to sell a lot of pies for not much money. Does it use Crisco instead of butter or lard in the crust? What sorts of other gunk are they putting in? Does it use high fructose corn syrup instead of sugar? (Grandma did used to use Karo syrup for some things, but that was not "high fructose" corn syrup.) As I type, David is making a blueberry pie, to be served at 1:59.


Camacho
I shall be ringing your doorbell at 1:58 with whipped cream in hand.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Camacho said:


> To remember the digits of pi, here is a poem by M Keith, in honor of Pi Day:
> Poe, E.: Near a Raven.
> Midnights so dreary, tired and weary.
> Silently pondering volumes extolling all by-now obsolete lore.
> ...


Camacho
Thank you.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> I knit like a slug. I'm soooo slow. But never fear. Things get done eventually and my yarn lasts a long time.


cookiequeen
you knit so perfectly and that slows you down but only a little bit. It also speaks of lots of patience.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> *OVERTURN CITIZENS UNITED*
> 
> It is the root cause of so many of our problems!


DGreen
yes, it is the greatest danger to our Democracy. I am signing every petition to overturn Citizens United. It is not Citizens United, it is CITIZENS BEING CREMATED.


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I would have to write that down. Might as well write down the digits...


But poems are easier to memorize than strings of digits. Keith's entire poem gives 740 digits. At least I did not inflict that on our group. Please PM me for the next 660 digits.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Camacho said:


> But poems are easier to memorize than strings of digits. Keith's entire poem gives 740 digits. At least I did not inflict that on our group. Please PM me for the next 660 digits.


Why would the average person ever need that many?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Camacho said:


> But poems are easier to memorize than strings of digits. Keith's entire poem gives 740 digits. At least I did not inflict that on our group. Please PM me for the next 660 digits.


Just thinking about that, gives me a headache. Blech! :lol:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Why would the average person ever need that many?


3.14 works for me. Not that I've ever needed it. ;-)


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Actually maybe a year or so after Mike Keith had written the 740 word pi poem, he wrote a 4000 word story that incorporated his first poem as its first 740 words. Now that one even I had trouble just reading through. 4000 digits of pi is getting a little bit silly and implies that the guy who wrote it had way too much time on his hands. Or he could have been studying the properties of pi until he was dreaming about it and just had to do something light with it. I have some similar awful memories from graduate school about the number e myself. I hoped, when I posted it, that at least some people reading the 80-word version a little bit amusing. We all need some comic relief from time to time, and if I can't raise the general level of discourse, then I like to provide a little comic relief. This is also the fifth anniversary of my son's first psychotic break, which we do NOT need to remember or celebrate, thank you.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Camacho said:


> Actually maybe a year or so after Mike Keith had written the 740 word pi poem, he wrote a 4000 word story that incorporated his first poem as its first 740 words. Now that one even I had trouble just reading through. 4000 digits of pi is getting a little bit silly and implies that the guy who wrote it had way too much time on his hands. Or he could have been studying the properties of pi until he was dreaming about it and just had to do something light with it. I have some similar awful memories from graduate school about the number e myself. I hoped, when I posted it, that at least some people reading the 80-word version a little bit amusing. We all need some comic relief from time to time, and if I can't raise the general level of discourse, then I like to provide a little comic relief. This is also the fifth anniversary of my son's first psychotic break, which we do NOT need to remember or celebrate, thank you.


Maybe this will help you forget:






music starts at about 1:30

Or, with left hand added


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> 3.14 works for me. Not that I've ever needed it. ;-)


I've used it to determine whether I can bake my round-cake recipe in a rectangular pan, or vice versa. Though even 3.14 was more than I needed.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I've used it to determine whether I can bake my round-cake recipe in a rectangular pan, or vice versa. Though even 3.14 was more than I needed.


Did it work???

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I've used it to determine whether I can bake my round-cake recipe in a rectangular pan, or vice versa. Though even 3.14 was more than I needed.


See, I wouldn't calculate anything. I'd just dump it in and bake it.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I've used it to determine whether I can bake my round-cake recipe in a rectangular pan, or vice versa. Though even 3.14 was more than I needed.


Poor Purl
Wow, so exact? I do it by the seat of my pants and I guess years of doing so has gotten me to a pretty accurate point.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I've used it to determine whether I can bake my round-cake recipe in a rectangular pan, or vice versa. Though even 3.14 was more than I needed.


I have been waiting for you to join Camacho's pi discussion.

Does anyone use algebra in her daily life? Geometry? Calculus? Boolean algebra? Differential equations? Does math become a sort of language as it advances? Never understood it.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> I have been waiting for you to join Camacho's pi discussion.
> 
> Does anyone use algebra in her daily life? Geometry? Calculus? Boolean algebra? Differential equations? Does math become a sort of language as it advances? Never understood it.


Heck no.

But, I have to speak in defense of math education because math requires high level thinking skills - that's the ultimate point, not utility.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Heck no.
> 
> But, I have to speak in defense of math education because math requires high level thinking skills - that's the ultimate point, not utility.


So does reading reading Shakespeare or current events.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> So does reading reading Shakespeare or current events.


Perhaps. Math is abstract. Studying the classics is definitely valuable. In order to be well-educated, one needs to be master a wide variety of information, skills and ideas. Nowadays it seems the basics are not even covered.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Did it work???
> 
> :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


Yes, but so does the chapter in The Joy of Cooking that compares all sizes and shapes of bakepans.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> See, I wouldn't calculate anything. I'd just dump it in and bake it.


That's how come I have a doctorate in mathematics and all you have is grandchildren.

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Yes, but so does the chapter in The Joy of Cooking that compares all sizes and shapes of bakepans.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Poor Purl
> Wow, so exact? I do it by the seat of my pants and I guess years of doing so has gotten me to a pretty accurate point.


The seat of my pants keeps changing size, so it's not accurate ever.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I have been waiting for you to join Camacho's pi discussion.
> 
> Does anyone use algebra in her daily life? Geometry? Calculus? Boolean algebra? Differential equations? Does math become a sort of language as it advances? Never understood it.


Didn't I post a link to Youtube?

Algebra and geometry yes (sometimes I want to change the size of a challah). Calculus only for fun.

But I'm pretty sure you use Boolean algebra, though not formally.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

My little boy is in his third year of a maths degree (and well on course for a First, but that's only because he gets it and works very hard - I can't take any of the credit). I've heard him tutoring his 17-year-old cousin, and I'm very sad to say it's a foreign language. I wish I understood maths, but all I can do is admire it. I really don't have that kind of brain: my bent is language(s), but the little bugger decided last year to learn Spanish. He spent three months in Colombia volunteering in a school, and now his bloody Spanish is up to scratch as well.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Didn't I post a link to Youtube?
> 
> Algebra and geometry yes (sometimes I want to change the size of a challah). Calculus only for fun.
> 
> But I'm pretty sure you use Boolean algebra, though not formally.


Interesting. How do I do that? What exactly is boolean algebra? (I can throw around terms that I do not know which makes me great at cocktail parties.)


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> See, I wouldn't calculate anything. I'd just dump it in and bake it.


I do the same -- Mathematics and me are in different worlds. I have no love of it, like of it and very little understanding of it. I count on my dh who is really good at it to do any calculating that I need. Mind you he can't draw or color so we even it out.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> So does reading reading Shakespeare or current events.


I think that you are correct. Reading was my lifeline when I was little -- I loved reading from the time I was four and was never happier than when I was reading a book. It was an escape for me and I still love reading whenever I can. Math, not so much! :XD: :XD:

I have never felt I was not fully involved with the world, or that I missed that much by not liking or really understanding math. I was always interested in what was going on, and read, and wrote, and mixed with people, and traveled. I think it is if you pull into yourself and don't use your skills to the best of your ability you aren't as well balanced as you could be.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> That's how come I have a doctorate in mathematics and all you have is grandchildren.
> 
> :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


 :thumbup: :thumbup:

I might have enjoyed math if I had someone like you to get me started. My dislike of math started in grade three when a teacher ridiculed me in front of the class because I didn't add correctly- I always felt I couldn't do it and as a result I think I made up my mind it wasn't for me . I remember cold sweats when I had an algebra test.

I was never told I was smart, only that I was stupid, and math was included in that statement. I believed it until I was a late teenager and found that I wasn't as stupid as I had been told. Parents have no idea what they do to a child by undermining their confidence over and over. Luckily I am strong willed and decided to 'show myself' that I was not stupid - huge decision and I worked at it for years, (although math was not in my plan as by that time I really disliked it}. I found I was still able to help my boys with homework and thought that maybe it wasn't as bad as I had thought. I regret I didn't try harder. I did do a lot of things that I loved to do so I know it more than evened out.

I really would have loved to have had talks with you Purl, I bet it wouldn't have been such a difficult thing for me if I had.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> That's how come I have a doctorate in mathematics and all you have is grandchildren.
> 
> :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


Ahahahahaha! I'm good.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> The seat of my pants keeps changing size, so it's not accurate ever.


Poor Purl
very funny. One up for you. I happen to love Math and am married to an "Einstein" who challenges me all the time. I am not on his level by any means but hold my own pretty well. He knows more numbers and I more words - I call that equal.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Yes, but so does the chapter in The Joy of Cooking that compares all sizes and shapes of bakepans.


Poor Purl
The Joy of Cooking is still my favorite cook book. Hubby is into Cooks Country - very interesting reading and fine Recipes.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Designer1234
I keep looking at your Avatar. It is so pretty.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Designer1234
> I keep looking at your Avatar. It is so pretty.


Thankyou Huck! I used it as an example when I was teaching a watercolor class -showed them how to 'spread the water and drop the color into the water. and then finish the whole thing with pen outlines. I appreciate that from you . you are multi talented and I love your work too.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I have been waiting for you to join Camacho's pi discussion.
> 
> Does anyone use algebra in her daily life? Geometry? Calculus? Boolean algebra? Differential equations? Does math become a sort of language as it advances? Never understood it.


No, trigonometry is my go to formula. Wouldn't leave home without it!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Perhaps. Math is abstract. Studying the classics is definitely valuable. In order to be well-educated, one needs to be master a wide variety of information, skills and ideas. Nowadays it seems the basics are not even covered.


English Literature was the most valuable subject I studied. Reading the classics was the ultimate for me.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> My little boy is in his third year of a maths degree (and well on course for a First, but that's only because he gets it and works very hard - I can't take any of the credit). I've heard him tutoring his 17-year-old cousin, and I'm very sad to say it's a foreign language. I wish I understood maths, but all I can do is admire it. I really don't have that kind of brain: my bent is language(s), but the little bugger decided last year to learn Spanish. He spent three months in Colombia volunteering in a school, and now his bloody Spanish is up to scratch as well.


What a great achievement! All sorts of doors are open to him now.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

From ifyouonlynews.com

Sen. Tom Cotton (R-Ark) was a guest on Face the Nation Sunday morning to defend his ridiculous letter to Iran and the 46 other ridiculous senators that signed it.

Host Bob Scheiffer, obviously not a fan of the letter, mentioned to him that it may have undermined the President getting a nuclear deal with Iran. When asked what he thought would happen if the deal fell through, Cotton replied with a quote from Benjamin Netanyahu:

The alternative to a bad deal is a better deal.

No, senator, the consequences of the deal falling through because of your actions is no deal. That would, however, be a precursor to the possibility of war, which is what Republicans want anyway.

Cotton continued his rant with his fears about Irans regional dominance:

They already control Tehran and, increasingly, they control Damascus and Beirut and Baghdad. And now, Senaa as well.


First off, senator, Tehran is in the heart of Iran. Its their Capital. As for the other cities youre claiming they have a hold of, youre clearly speaking of ISIS, a regional threat that Iran opposes as much as the US does.

Way to show your foreign policy knowledge. Sarah Palin would be proud.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

From ifyouonlynews.com

_Sen. Tom Cotton (R-Ark) was a guest on Face the Nation Sunday morning to defend his ridiculous letter to Iran and the 46 other ridiculous senators that signed it.

Host Bob Scheiffer, obviously not a fan of the letter, mentioned to him that it may have undermined the President getting a nuclear deal with Iran. When asked what he thought would happen if the deal fell through, Cotton replied with a quote from Benjamin Netanyahu:

The alternative to a bad deal is a better deal.

No, senator, the consequences of the deal falling through because of your actions is no deal. That would, however, be a precursor to the possibility of war, which is what Republicans want anyway.

Cotton continued his rant with his fears about Irans regional dominance:

They already control Tehran and, increasingly, they control Damascus and Beirut and Baghdad. And now, Senaa as well.

First off, senator, Tehran is in the heart of Iran. Its their Capital. As for the other cities youre claiming they have a hold of, youre clearly speaking of ISIS, a regional threat that Iran opposes as much as the US does.

Way to show your foreign policy knowledge. Sarah Palin would be proud._


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Maybe this will help you forget:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I've used it to determine whether I can bake my round-cake recipe in a rectangular pan, or vice versa. Though even 3.14 was more than I needed.


In a situation like that I might use 22/7.


----------



## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> I have been waiting for you to join Camacho's pi discussion.
> 
> Does anyone use algebra in her daily life? Geometry? Calculus? Boolean algebra? Differential equations? Does math become a sort of language as it advances? Never understood it.


Every time I try a new diet, I use lots of algebra. Now I have my husband doing it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Camacho said:


> In a situation like that I might use 22/7.


Too chicken to use decimals?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Camacho said:


> Every time I try a new diet, I use lots of algebra. Now I have my husband doing it.


Then he's as chicken as you.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Then he's as chicken as you.


Ha, ha! you are on the ball today Purl! how are you doing?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I made a diaper cover last night. These things cost $10-$15 in the store, but I found packages of snaps and fold over elastic at Tuesday Morning for $2. So, I figure my total cost was under $5. I had the hardest time using the snap tool, otherwise it wasn't too hard. It used a 3 stitch zig zag, which I'd never heard of before, and didnt even know that my machine had. It sews 6 stitches for each zig or zag. Here's pics. One pic shows the gusset around the leg opening. I think they're going to need about 36 of these in the newborn size, so I'll be busy with these.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I made a diaper cover last night. These things cost $10-$15 in the store, but I found packages of snaps and fold over elastic at Tudsday Morning for $2. So, I figure my total cost was under $5. I had the hardest time using the snap tool, otherwise it wasn't too hard. It used a 3 stitch zig zag, which I'd never heard of before, and didnt even know that my machine had. It sews 6 stitches for each zig or zag. Here's pics. One pic shows the gusset around the leg opening. I think they're going to need about 36 of these in the newborn size, so I'll be busy with these.


They are very nice and extremely useful. You do a good job, Neb. I hate trying to put on those snaps.

I hope dil is doing well.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Ha, ha! you are on the ball today Purl! how are you doing?


1. There are hundreds (okay, maybe dozens) of good chicken smileys available. 2. The paint job and its aftermath will go on forever. I am considering opening a vein and I think my cat wants me to help her do the same.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I made a diaper cover last night. These things cost $10-$15 in the store, but I found packages of snaps and fold over elastic at Tuesday Morning for $2. So, I figure my total cost was under $5. I had the hardest time using the snap tool, otherwise it wasn't too hard. It used a 3 stitch zig zag, which I'd never heard of before, and didnt even know that my machine had. It sews 6 stitches for each zig or zag. Here's pics. One pic shows the gusset around the leg opening. I think they're going to need about 36 of these in the newborn size, so I'll be busy with these.


Eventually some of us will be needing diapers covers too. Can we count on you to make them for us?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I made a diaper cover last night. These things cost $10-$15 in the store, but I found packages of snaps and fold over elastic at Tuesday Morning for $2. So, I figure my total cost was under $5. I had the hardest time using the snap tool, otherwise it wasn't too hard. It used a 3 stitch zig zag, which I'd never heard of before, and didnt even know that my machine had. It sews 6 stitches for each zig or zag. Here's pics. One pic shows the gusset around the leg opening. I think they're going to need about 36 of these in the newborn size, so I'll be busy with these.


Beautiful job. You sew as well as you knit.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> From ifyouonlynews.com
> 
> Sen. Tom Cotton (R-Ark) was a guest on Face the Nation Sunday morning to defend his ridiculous letter to Iran and the 46 other ridiculous senators that signed it.
> 
> ...


DGreen
thank you. We should bombard Mr. Cotton with facts to drown in. This creep just slipped into Washington on slimy money and now has to keep skating on it for the rest of his term. Look at his face when he speaks and it is obvious that he is reciting what he was told to say. We just need to stay on his tail.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I made a diaper cover last night. These things cost $10-$15 in the store, but I found packages of snaps and fold over elastic at Tuesday Morning for $2. So, I figure my total cost was under $5. I had the hardest time using the snap tool, otherwise it wasn't too hard. It used a 3 stitch zig zag, which I'd never heard of before, and didnt even know that my machine had. It sews 6 stitches for each zig or zag. Here's pics. One pic shows the gusset around the leg opening. I think they're going to need about 36 of these in the newborn size, so I'll be busy with these.


Knitter from Nebraska
very nice job.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> thank you. We should bombard Mr. Cotton with facts to drown in. This creep just slipped into Washington on slimy money and now has to keep skating on it for the rest of his term. Look at his face when he speaks and it is obvious that he is reciting what he was told to say. We just need to stay on his tail.


Here's another I found at Daily Kos. Full disclosure: Daily Kos is undeniably liberal and sometimes engages in sensationalism. Quoting a college thesis can be, in my view, a little sketchy. But the guy is a wingnut and if the article is correct, he may be in the running as a candidate in 2016. Democrats, it's time to start the push to register EVERY democratic voter. Provide the ID, arrange for transportation to the polls, whatever it takes in spite of any new restrictions. The republicans must not gain the presidency in 2016 with ANY of the extremists now being favored.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/03/15/1371153/-Tom-Cotton-sociopath-believes-we-should-be-lead-by-male-elites?detail=email


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I made a diaper cover last night. These things cost $10-$15 in the store, but I found packages of snaps and fold over elastic at Tuesday Morning for $2. So, I figure my total cost was under $5. I had the hardest time using the snap tool, otherwise it wasn't too hard. It used a 3 stitch zig zag, which I'd never heard of before, and didnt even know that my machine had. It sews 6 stitches for each zig or zag. Here's pics. One pic shows the gusset around the leg opening. I think they're going to need about 36 of these in the newborn size, so I'll be busy with these.


Very nice


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> They are very nice and extremely useful. You do a good job, Neb. I hate trying to put on those snaps.
> 
> I hope dil is doing well.


Thanks, Shirley. I kept pushing too hard with the tool, and breaking snaps.

Dil is still doing well. She is 22 weeks, 5 days, today. That's when we lost the triplets. So every day after this, will be a blessing.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> 1. There are hundreds (okay, maybe dozens) of good chicken smileys available. 2. The paint job and its aftermath will go on forever. I am considering opening a vein and I think my cat wants me to help her do the same.


Soon, you'll have everything put back and it will be just a memory. I hope you're liking how it looks.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Eventually some of us will be needing diapers covers too. Can we count on you to make them for us?


No! Make your own. That would take a lot of PUL fabric and FOE.  
Pricey stuff.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Beautiful job. You sew as well as you knit.


Thank you!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> very nice job.


Thanks, Huck.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> Very nice


Thanks, Cindy.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, Shirley. I kept pushing too hard with the tool, and breaking snaps.
> 
> Dil is still doing well. She is 22 weeks, 5 days, today. That's when we lost the triplets. So every day after this, will be a blessing.


Such good news. Hoping for many more weeks.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I made a diaper cover last night. These things cost $10-$15 in the store, but I found packages of snaps and fold over elastic at Tuesday Morning for $2. So, I figure my total cost was under $5. I had the hardest time using the snap tool, otherwise it wasn't too hard. It used a 3 stitch zig zag, which I'd never heard of before, and didnt even know that my machine had. It sews 6 stitches for each zig or zag. Here's pics. One pic shows the gusset around the leg opening. I think they're going to need about 36 of these in the newborn size, so I'll be busy with these.


You're amazing and very clever. Son and DIL have a total gem in you!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> 1. There are hundreds (okay, maybe dozens) of good chicken smileys available. 2. The paint job and its aftermath will go on forever. I am considering opening a vein and I think my cat wants me to help her do the same.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Eventually some of us will be needing diapers covers too. Can we count on you to make them for us?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: Poor KFN will be still sewing when the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse ride in!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: Poor KFN will be still sewing when the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse ride in!


Just think how fast little ones grow - all the time needing new clothes. Of course, that is the absolute best we can hope for - that all the babies are born healthy and continue to thrive.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I made a diaper cover last night. These things cost $10-$15 in the store, but I found packages of snaps and fold over elastic at Tuesday Morning for $2. So, I figure my total cost was under $5. I had the hardest time using the snap tool, otherwise it wasn't too hard. It used a 3 stitch zig zag, which I'd never heard of before, and didnt even know that my machine had. It sews 6 stitches for each zig or zag. Here's pics. One pic shows the gusset around the leg opening. I think they're going to need about 36 of these in the newborn size, so I'll be busy with these.


Very nice. I can see where all those snaps would get to you. They aren't the easiest things to work with.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Such good news. Hoping for many more weeks.


Thank you, so much! With each passing day, I feel more and more optimistic. At this time with the triplets, dil had already been in the hospital for three weeks or so. She hasn't even been put on bed rest yet, but then, she does very little. We wait on her and treat her like a china doll. She needs so many calories but the babies are pressing on her stomach, which makes her feel full. So, I cook her multiple meals and snacks every day. A little at a time. She's still having a hard time drinking a gallon of water every day, but she's getting better. The babies are over a pound now, and are full formed. They just need to grow. It's starting to feel real. I'm getting excited! After Thursday, 11 weeks to go.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> You're amazing and very clever. Son and DIL have a total gem in you!


Not really amazing or clever, but I can read the instructions. :lol: 
Son and dil truly appreciate everything I'm doing. They tell me multiple times every day. I just want my grandchildren to be well and happy.

I'm seeing HUGE improvements in Max. He's hardly having any meltdowns or rages. He's talking more, although a lot of it is still parroting other people's words. He hasn't hit me or kicked me for weeks and some of his little routines are changing a bit. I'm enjoying him so much! He's always happy to see me, every day. I thought maybe he wouldn't be so happy to see me once I took on a disciplinary role. But the opposite is true. We have lots of fun.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: Poor KFN will be still sewing when the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse ride in!


It feels like it, just with the babies. I need to make a minimum of 36 newborn diaper covers, then size small, medium and large. I'll be a pro by then. I'll be mass producing.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Just think how fast little ones grow - all the time needing new clothes. Of course, that is the absolute best we can hope for - that all the babies are born healthy and continue to thrive.


Oh, yes! I'll welcome being busy.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Very nice. I can see where all those snaps would get to you. They aren't the easiest things to work with.


I keep cracking them. Then, they're so darned hard to remove.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Thank You, everybody!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you, so much! With each passing day, I feel more and more optimistic. At this time with the triplets, dil had already been in the hospital for three weeks or so. She hasn't even been put on bed rest yet, but then, she does very little. We wait on her and treat her like a china doll. She needs so many calories but the babies are pressing on her stomach, which makes her feel full. So, I cook her multiple meals and snacks every day. A little at a time. She's still having a hard time drinking a gallon of water every day, but she's getting better. The babies are over a pound now, and are full formed. They just need to grow. It's starting to feel real. I'm getting excited! After Thursday, 11 weeks to go.


For some reason this post made me a little teary and there is a lump in my throat. Something about the milestone making it seem real...and being torn between what should be joy and very real fear. I can't imagine how difficult these days are for your DIL. I'm so glad she has you to nurture her and the babies. But I know it must be hard on you, too. Best wishes.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, Shirley. I kept pushing too hard with the tool, and breaking snaps.
> 
> Dil is still doing well. She is 22 weeks, 5 days, today. That's when we lost the triplets. So every day after this, will be a blessing.


I am so glad. It sounds hopeful. I wish the very best for your babies. I am so glad to hear that you have noticed a change in Max. I am sure it is because of your influence. They sense discruption and your home is a place where he is secure. You are earning your wings as my Grandmother used to say when people did good things, more than required.

I am sorry that I added to your stress. It was thoughtless and unthinking. Politics is one thing but far from everything- you and I are beyond that I hope. I admire you , don't you forget it. You are strong.

I am your friend you know - at least I hope you know. Those little ones are in my heart too.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Not really amazing or clever, but I can read the instructions. :lol:
> Son and dil truly appreciate everything I'm doing. They tell me multiple times every day. I just want my grandchildren to be well and happy.
> 
> I'm seeing HUGE improvements in Max. He's hardly having any meltdowns or rages. He's talking more, although a lot of it is still parroting other people's words. He hasn't hit me or kicked me for weeks and some of his little routines are changing a bit. I'm enjoying him so much! He's always happy to see me, every day. I thought maybe he wouldn't be so happy to see me once I took on a disciplinary role. But the opposite is true. We have lots of fun.


Your influence is integral to his change. I hope you know that.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It feels like it, just with the babies. I need to make a minimum of 36 newborn diaper covers, then size small, medium and large. I'll be a pro by then. I'll be mass producing.


You could have a business on the side!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> For some reason this post made me a little teary and there is a lump in my throat. Something about the milestone making it seem real...and being torn between what should be joy and very real fear. I can't imagine how difficult these days are for your DIL. I'm so glad she has you to nurture her and the babies. But I know it must be hard on you, too. Best wishes.


You really DO understand. Thank you!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I am so glad. It sounds hopeful. I wish the very best for your babies. I am so glad to hear that you have noticed a change in Max. I am sure it is because of your influence. They sense discruption and your home is a place where he is secure. You are earning your wings as my Grandmother used to say when people did good things, more than required.
> 
> I am sorry that I added to your stress. It was thoughtless and unthinking. Politics is one thing but far from everything- you and I are beyond that I hope. I admire you , don't you forget it. You are strong.
> 
> I am your friend you know - at least I hope you know. Those little ones are in my heart too.


Now, I'm tearing up. Thank you, Shirley. I go from low, low, low, to high, high, high. I'm just tired. I think I'll go to bed early tonight.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Your influence is integral to his change. I hope you know that.


Thank you, Wombat! 
I know that I'm making a difference. A few weeks in, my son noticed a change, so he started doing what I'm doing. And now, everyone is noticing it. Max is happy and calm. When he does get frustrated, he's able to calm himself and control himself. I never would have thought it possible and it amazes me. I hope that it continues.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Now, I'm tearing up. Thank you, Shirley. I go from low, low, low, to high, high, high. I'm just tired. I think I'll go to bed early tonight.


Hey, KFN, there's no crying in grandmothership!! Just kidding. Hope all goes well with the babies and your DIL. I can't imagine what it must be like to be carrying 3! Thank God she has you.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> You could have a business on the side!


I really don't have time for that.

My hubby just surprised me. He's going to take a week of vacation next week and he's going to do everything I've been doing, so that I can have a week off. I'm really looking forward to it. I don't know if my dil will like it, but I don't care. It might be weird for her, but she likes him, so I hope it's OK with her. She definitely doesn't like his breakfast. He burns it. :lol:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Hey, KFN, there's no crying in grandmothership!! Just kidding. Hope all goes well with the babies and your DIL. I can't imagine what it must be like to be carrying 3! Thank God she has you.


She's carrying 4! :lol: 
And grandmas can cry when they get really, really tired. As long as no one sees them.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> She's carrying 4! :lol:
> And grandmas can cry when they get really, really tired. As long as no one sees them.


Got that right :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> She's carrying 4! :lol:
> And grandmas can cry when they get really, really tired. As long as no one sees them.


even if someone CAN see them.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I see our 'friends are out and about on a new thread. same old same old.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> She's carrying 4! :lol:
> And grandmas can cry when they get really, really tired. As long as no one sees them.


Yes they can as long as they are happy tears :-D I thought she was carrying quads. I saw where you mentioned triplets.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Yes they can as long as they are happy tears :-D I thought she was carrying quads. I saw where you mentioned triplets.


I was referring to the triplets we lost nearly five years ago. This time it is quads.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I was referring to the triplets we lost nearly five years ago. This time it is quads.


Oh my! I hope that she and the babies stay healthy. I know what you mean about being tired. GD is 2 1/2 and some days just wears me down. Oh, to have that energy again! 
My sister has a grandson with Asbergers. He lives with her and like you, she has worked with him on many issues. He is just thriving with her.
When you see me post that I have an online game date, it is with him.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Oh my! I hope that she and the babies stay healthy. I know what you mean about being tired. GD is 2 1/2 and some days just wears me down. Oh, to have that energy again!
> My sister has a grandson with Asbergers. He lives with her and like you, she has worked with him on many issues. He is just thriving with her.
> When you see me post that I have an online game date, it is with him.


Oh, the curse of the ages. When we're young, we have the energy but not the patience. When we're older, we have the patience but not the energy.

Going outside to play is what wears me out the most. We swing and swing. And then we jump out of the swing, and run to the edge of the yard and back. And then, I've got to climb up the steps to the play set, and we sit up there in our "fort". Max cannot understand why grandma doesn't slide down the slide, even though I've told him, it would break.  I also told him, I'm too old to slide down the fireman's pole or climb up the rope ladder.

I'm glad to hear that your sister's grandson is doing well. There are too many kids with problems. We need to find out what's causing them, and do something about it. I think it affects all of us.

Gotta go. Ttyl.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Another attack on innocent people in Tunisia:

http://www.9news.com.au/World/2015/03/19/00/07/Tunisia-attack


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Not an area I would consider the best for a vacation!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Another attack on innocent people in Tunisia:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/World/2015/03/19/00/07/Tunisia-attack


I just read that an Aussie was among the dead. So sad to hear of the deaths of innocents - yet again. It's been a bad day. 6 shot/1dead a little over a mile from where I used to live in Mesa, two miles from where I worked. I passed by the scene of one of the shootings every day on my way to work. Chills down the spine time.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

The Mesa, AZ shooter is a Neo-Nazi white supremacist. Fortunately this fruitcake has been arrested!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> The Mesa, AZ shooter is a Neo-Nazi white supremacist. Fortunately this fruitcake has been arrested!


Arizona is full of them. At least one will be off the streets now, though at the price of one life and many injured. Too awful.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> The Mesa, AZ shooter is a Neo-Nazi white supremacist. Fortunately this fruitcake has been arrested!


I am glad they got him. Oh dear, the world is such a mess and so many weird people. I haven't watched the news, will have to check CNN and see what happened.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I am glad they got him. Oh dear, the world is such a mess and so many weird people. I haven't watched the news, will have to check CNN and see what happened.


It's very weird to see my old familiar neighborhood in those photos. Have a meeting at 6:00 so I'll have to catch up later this evening.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> The Mesa, AZ shooter is a Neo-Nazi white supremacist. Fortunately this fruitcake has been arrested!


But NOOOOOO, we don't have a gun problem in America........


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> But NOOOOOO, we don't have a gun problem in America........


A couple of weeks ago a fellow who was renting a rural property outside of Phoenix lost his leg to buried explosives left there by some supremacist wacko. The wacko had been raided and good old Sherriff Joe had the property cleaned - evidently not well enough.

Wonder if the owner had disclosed the danger to the renter. Nah. This is Arizona where it's also legal to open carry in bars. (Alcohol + testosterone = DUCK!!) Like the Wild West. Every man for himself.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Sheriff Joe is a scary man. We were in Mesa when he first came on the scene at least with the pink striped prison uniforms. Loves publicity too and is sooo Arrogant. L00 plus degress in a tent city with no fans or anything. I am amazed that he is still being hired. 

Arizona is so beautiful -- such a shame.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Sheriff Joe is a scary man. We were in Mesa when he first came on the scene at least with the pink striped prison uniforms. Loves publicity too and is sooo Arrogant. L00 plus degress in a tent city with no fans or anything. I am amazed that he is still being hired.
> 
> Arizona is so beautiful -- such a shame.


He isn't hired, he has been elected, several times apparently.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> He isn't hired, he has been elected, several times apparently.


I wonder why anyone would want him oh, I guess I just figures that out.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> He isn't hired, he has been elected, several times apparently.


Sheriff Joe is the biggest blowhard on the planet. No one even wants to run against him and his gang of thugs. They "investigate" political enemies ALL THE TIME. Bad stuff.

He was under federal investigation for racial profiling and other abuses a few years ago and the evidence against him was overwhelming, yet he continued to spin the news as if he was being persecuted by the "govermint" in Washington. Sound familiar? He DID have to sign a consent order to change practices. Did he? Probably not and he knows it would take years for anyone to do anything about it.

People die in his jail and nothing happens. Like Ferguson...everything is justified and life goes on as if nothing happened.

I drive through a very deserted stretch of road to and from Phoenix, often alone. It is patrolled by Sheriff Joe's goons, so I'm always on high alert and watch my speed carefully. I DO NOT want to be stopped by one of his deputies, believe me. They drive HUGE SUV's, all painted black with tinted windows. I freely admit there is a real intimidation factor. Can't wait for the old coot to die - he's 80 years old and still getting elected.

Welcome to Arizona. Where people being held in the county jail (mostly awaiting trial so by definition innocent), are treated to green bologna and living in tents in the heat of the Arizona summer. Television is the Disney channel. Joe buys stars for his collar instead of feeding prisoners decently and the taxpayers adore him for it. Similar to the attitude of another thread when discussing Michael Brown. They "deserve it - lock 'em up and throw away the key, and thanks, Joe, for keeping us safe."

Even my libertarian son-in-law detests Joe, along with most everyone under 65 years old. Go figure.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Sheriff Joe is the biggest blowhard on the planet. No one even wants to run against him and his gang of thugs. They "investigate" political enemies ALL THE TIME. Bad stuff.
> 
> He was under federal investigation for racial profiling and other abuses a few years ago and the evidence against him was overwhelming, yet he continued to spin the news as if he was being persecuted by the "govermint" in Washington. Sound familiar? He DID have to sign a consent order to change practices. Did he? Probably not and he knows it would take years for anyone to do anything about it.
> 
> ...


Hey D!! He is definitely a piece of work, someone I would avoid like the plague. Must be lots of people in your area over 65 who are suffering from dementia if they are voting for him. I've seen him on TV, what a joke.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> Hey D!! He is definitely a piece of work, someone I would avoid like the plague. Must be lots of people in your area over 65 who are suffering from dementia if they are voting for him. I've seen him on TV, what a joke.


I live in a different county now, but in Maricopa County for about 50 years. Seems like he's ALWAYS been there. One thing is for sure, though - he has to die sometime, and the sooner the better because it appears that's the only thing that will get him out of office.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I just read that an Aussie was among the dead. So sad to hear of the deaths of innocents - yet again. It's been a bad day. 6 shot/1dead a little over a mile from where I used to live in Mesa, two miles from where I worked. I passed by the scene of one of the shootings every day on my way to work. Chills down the spine time.


I just read about that and like you, shivers down the spine. Last week, a young Indian woman was walking home from work in suburban Sydney at about 2100 hrs and she was attacked and stabbed to death. On Tuesday, here in suburban Melbourne, a young 17 year old girl set out for her daily walk in a park not far from her home at around 1900 hrs and was attacked and stabbed to death. This young girl attended Canterbury Girls College, my alma mater. What's going on?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

I just posted this news article in the 'Armed Police' thread which save our Green and der Fisherman, has deteriorated into a steaming mess.

Anyway, here it is. Startling and impressive I feel:

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/03/19/16/15/gun-shop-stunt-makes-would-be-buyers-question-weapons-ability-to-potect-them


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I just posted this news article in the 'Armed Police' thread which save our Green and der Fisherman, has deteriorated into a steaming mess.
> 
> Anyway, here it is. Startling and impressive I feel:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/03/19/16/15/gun-shop-stunt-makes-would-be-buyers-question-weapons-ability-to-potect-them


I like it. Sensible and true. Unfortunately, the ammosexuals won't be influenced.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> I like it. Sensible and true. Unfortunately, the ammosexuals won't be influenced.


Bright Green comes up with such great expressions. Ammosexuals. I watched the video thinking it was about something else and something I never tried.

While it was not what I expected, it still was something I would not try. Great find Wombatala.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Bright Green comes up with such great expressions. Ammosexuals. I watched the video thinking it was about something else and something I never tried.
> 
> While it was not what I expected, it still was something I would not try. Great find Wombatala.


Thanks SQM. An interesting social experiment. Question really is, what does it have to take for the powers that be to genuinely do something about the guns? Enough already.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Thanks SQM. An interesting social experiment. Question really is, what does it have to take for the powers that be to genuinely do something about the guns? Enough already.


It will take eliminating big money from politics. The disproportionate power of the NRA comes from the gun industry and it's no secret. Read my post on LOLL for more of my liberal opinion!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> It will take eliminating big money from politics. The disproportionate power of the NRA comes from the gun industry and it's no secret. Read my post on LOLL for more of my liberal opinion!


The criminals will always find those guns, glumly speaketh the Sloth.

Your post Bright, was a tour de force but I am now a very confused liberal. I cannot stand with the liberals because I disagree with their foreign policies. So I cannot label myself anymore.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> The criminals will always find those guns, glumly speaketh the Sloth.
> 
> Your post Bright, was a tour de force but I am now a very confused liberal. I cannot stand with the liberals because I disagree with their foreign policies. So I cannot label myself anymore.


Nothing wrong with that. Besides, who needs a label? We are complex beings and I doubt any of us would agree on everything.

I sincerely believe each of us needs to work on those issues we are passionate about. We need to stop wringing our hands and start taking action NOW. 2016 will be here before we know it, and the worst is yet to come from the extremists.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

But Hillary gives me the heeby jeebies. I guess when I see her opponent I will easily pull her lever.

is there anything on the Dem's agenda that you don't like Bright?

(notice I have never used your given name - only the quite suitable name I have given you)


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> But Hillary gives me the heeby jeebies. I guess when I see her opponent I will easily pull her lever.
> 
> is there anything on the Dem's agenda that you don't like Bright?
> 
> (notice I have never used your given name - only the quite suitable name I have given you)


I agree about Hillary. Too cozy with corporations, too much a "good old boy" and too soft on the environment. I will vote for her over any republican; that's a given. If there is another Dem who is better, I'll rejoice.

Tell me what the Dem's agenda is and I'll tell you what I don't agree with. They are stuck in "reaction" mode. They seem oblivious to the big picture and they have no backbone. I have been sorely disappointed in Obama on numerous occasions, particularly the TTP. By no means perfect, but I believe their core values are sound and you can at least talk to them.

Your courtesy is noted, and I thank you. But the cat's out of the bag and it's a small matter. Call me Diane any time you want, though I'm rather fond of Bright Green - it always makes me laugh. I'm not so sure about the "bright" part but, boy, I DO have opinions.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Diane Shmiane. I only know a Bright Green here.

Agree with you totally on Hills. Something does not compute about her. Likewise this administration. I still think Claire Underwood.

I thought you were a die-hard Dem - I feel better about my ambivalence. Thanks.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> Diane Shmiane. I only know a Bright Green here.
> 
> Agree with you totally on Hills. Something does not compute about her. Likewise this administration. I still think Claire Underwood.
> 
> I thought you were a die-hard Dem - I feel better about my ambivalence. Thanks.


Glad to hear that. It proves we are multi-dimensional and use our brains.

Only those who are either unwilling or unable to recognize and grasp complexity occupy the fringes where things are black and white.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I think one of the things about Bright green , Dame and all and other liberals, is that they THINK - they don't have to agree about everything. They realize that there is a grey, not just black and white. I think that is where the difference is between those on the other thread. They feel being l00% is the only way to live. Life isn't that way in my opinion.

I think that checking each of us out , they would be amazed at the different opinions, about different things that are felt here by each and every one of us. That is why Neb is welcome (Neb) I am talking about the libs, not personally you, but using you as an example) - we argue with her and don't agree but she has the right to express her feelings here and when she does we respect her. It is when it is so black and white that reason is not included , and anything is okay to do and say to 'beat ' the other party that problems happen.

Liberalism can't be fitted into a box. It is about Ideas and a sense of responsibility for our neighbors who are not as well off, suffering racism, suffering lack of education, suffering having to pay for the color of their skin, even though they have nothing to do with that, suffering unemployment and on and on. The United States has been known around the world for trying to solve problems all over the world ,sometimes trying too hard. But it is that you CARE about people suffering and you want to help. That is what is seen by me and a lot of others around the world. 

I have never read that anyone here is l00% in agreement of all that the President or the Democratic party has accomplished. I have read often where they have strong opinions. The difference is that we are all after the same thing, Including the President it is not alway sagreed as to how to achieve what we want -{ I am a liberal, not an American but am including myself }we want-freedom for all the Citizens, fair treatment under the law, 
freedom of choice about our personal lives, and basically 
kindness and caring for others. At least that is how I see it.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I think one of the things about Bright green and other liberals, is that they THINK they don't have to agree about everything. They realize that there is a grey, not just black and white. I think that is where the difference is between those on the other thread. They feel being l00% is the only way to live. Life isn't that way in my opinion.
> 
> I think that checking each of us out , they would be amazed at the different opinions, about different things that are felt here by each and every one of us. That is why Neb is welcome (Neb) I am talking about the libs, not personally you, but using you as an example) and why you are able to criticize the people who you basically agree with.
> 
> ...


Very well put. Thanks for your thoughtful perspective.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Very well put. Thanks for your thoughtful perspective.


I changed my post a bit to try to make myself clearer. I appreciate your understanding of what I am trying to say.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Nothing wrong with that. Besides, who needs a label? We are complex beings and I doubt any of us would agree on everything.
> 
> I sincerely believe each of us needs to work on those issues we are passionate about. We need to stop wringing our hands and start taking action NOW. 2016 will be here before we know it, and the worst is yet to come from the extremists.


On the subject of black and white and believing the party line, found "somewhere" on this site:

_<0 lost the election in Israel even after taxpayers pitched in all that campaign money.

O loves to spend our money the A-- H---! Then after he leaves office, we still must fork out money to that worthless piece of S. . .t!_


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> On the subject of black and white and believing the party line, found "somewhere" on this site:
> 
> _<0 lost the election in Israel even after taxpayers pitched in all that campaign money.
> 
> O loves to spend our money the A-- H---! Then after he leaves office, we still must fork out money to that worthless piece of S. . .t!_


It makes me feel rather sick to my stomach. The hate is so obvious and so blind and so pervasive 'on one thread' on this forum. I admire the President's courage and grace as I know he reads that crap too and he still holds his head up high. I noticed he spoke about it the other day. Thank heavens.

Then they say they don't hate him!! what does that sentence say. Not one word of dissent was posted. speaks for itself. they are all like robots.

Please Please don't allow them to take over - they are blinded by racism and hate. It is getting worse and worse. I went back and looked at the threads two or three years ago when there was a Progressive section. I just opened some and read some of the posts Obama was running and then elected. Dislike yes but nothing compared to what is being said and believed now.

I think that America will realize once the election starts seriously how far they will go and how untruthful and how much hate there is. They don't really care about anything but beating him. I fear for him and his family. He will never be safe from those who hate him so much, for being black and being a lliberal.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> It makes me feel rather sick to my stomach. The hate is so obvious and so blind and so pervasive 'on one thread' on this forum. I admire the President's courage and grace as I know he reads that crap too and he still holds his head up high. I noticed he spoke about it the other day. Thank heavens.
> 
> Then they say they don't hate him!! what does that sentence say. Not one word of dissent was posted. speaks for itself. they are all like robots.
> 
> ...


All the more reason to keep track of the activities and statements of the right wing. We must make sure the voters remember come election time.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I certainly think we should keep track of that statement. It certainly doesn't hide the writer's feelings. I can't believe someone would say that about your President. They don't have anyone who will have the basic decency he shows. If the person running even comes close to feeling the way that writer does, it sickens me at the thought'.. I am not discussing his successes or not as I try not to involve myself or give opinions on the actual activitiesbut this is something different. It is the attitudes that are so horrendous.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I agree about Hillary. Too cozy with corporations, too much a "good old boy" and too soft on the environment. I will vote for her over any republican; that's a given. If there is another Dem who is better, I'll rejoice.
> 
> Tell me what the Dem's agenda is and I'll tell you what I don't agree with. They are stuck in "reaction" mode. They seem oblivious to the big picture and they have no backbone. I have been sorely disappointed in Obama on numerous occasions, particularly the TTP. By no means perfect, but I believe their core values are sound and you can at least talk to them.
> 
> Your courtesy is noted, and I thank you. But the cat's out of the bag and it's a small matter. Call me Diane any time you want, though I'm rather fond of Bright Green - it always makes me laugh. I'm not so sure about the "bright" part but, boy, I DO have opinions.


DGreen
I wonder why the Democrats have the need to react rather than act. That is a part of them I quarrel with and constantly.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I certainly think we should keep track of that statement. It certainly doesn't hide the writer's feelings. I can't believe someone would say that about your President. They don't have anyone who will have the basic decency he shows. If the person running even comes close to feeling the way that writer does, it sickens me at the thought'.. I am not discussing his successes or not as I try not to involve myself or give opinions on the actual activitiesbut this is something different. It is the attitudes that are so horrendous.


Ain't freedom of speech wonderful?

(It really is, but it's got a downside. We have to tolerate insults and lies...all that bad stuff. Unless they are credible threats, a person can say pretty much anything.)


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> On the subject of black and white and believing the party line, found "somewhere" on this site:
> 
> _<0 lost the election in Israel even after taxpayers pitched in all that campaign money.
> 
> O loves to spend our money the A-- H---! Then after he leaves office, we still must fork out money to that worthless piece of S. . .t!_


DGreen
statements like that used to raise my dander. Not any more, I consider the source and such foul thoughts and language have NO meaning at all, they just show the insecurities of the expressers.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> It will take eliminating big money from politics. The disproportionate power of the NRA comes from the gun industry and it's no secret. Read my post on LOLL for more of my liberal opinion!


Already have and I have to say it is excellent. Have you put your hand up as a presidential candidate yet Madam Green?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> The criminals will always find those guns, glumly speaketh the Sloth.
> 
> Your post Bright, was a tour de force but I am now a very confused liberal. I cannot stand with the liberals because I disagree with their foreign policies. So I cannot label myself anymore.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: About 'Bright.' You come up with the funniest turns of phrase at times! Not funny strange, funny ha ha.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Forgive! I know it's the Daily Mail but when I came across the following, I could not resist! Let's just say there is one Republican who hasn't got his mind on destroying President Obama:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3002561/Caught-act-Republican-legislator-59-busted-reading-Sex-Sixty-House-debate.html


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Forgive! I know it's the Daily Mail but when I came across the following, I could not resist! Let's just say there is one Republican who hasn't got his mind on destroying President Obama:
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3002561/Caught-act-Republican-legislator-59-busted-reading-Sex-Sixty-House-debate.html


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> statements like that used to raise my dander. Not any more, I consider the source and such foul thoughts and language have NO meaning at all, they just show the insecurities of the expressers.


There is wisdom in what you say. I also think we need to be mindful of the other side's attitudes and beliefs. Know the enemy.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> There is wisdom in what you say. I also think we need to be mindful of the other side's attitudes and beliefs. Know the enemy.


DGreen
I 2nd that. Know they Enemy and WELL.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> I 2nd that. Know they Enemy and WELL.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Forgive! I know it's the Daily Mail but when I came across the following, I could not resist! Let's just say there is one Republican who hasn't got his mind on destroying President Obama:
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3002561/Caught-act-Republican-legislator-59-busted-reading-Sex-Sixty-House-debate.html


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> But Hillary gives me the heeby jeebies. I guess when I see her opponent I will easily pull her lever.
> 
> is there anything on the Dem's agenda that you don't like Bright?
> 
> (notice I have never used your given name - only the quite suitable name I have given you)


The question isn't for me, but the TPP is a total disaster and I can't stand the way it has been handled---keeping everyone in the dark. Transparency? I don't think so. Bad for US workers.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

O


DGreen said:


> I agree about Hillary. Too cozy with corporations, too much a "good old boy" and too soft on the environment. I will vote for her over any republican; that's a given. If there is another Dem who is better, I'll rejoice.
> 
> Tell me what the Dem's agenda is and I'll tell you what I don't agree with. They are stuck in "reaction" mode. They seem oblivious to the big picture and they have no backbone. I have been sorely disappointed in Obama on numerous occasions, particularly the TTP. By no means perfect, but I believe their core values are sound and you can at least talk to them.
> 
> Your courtesy is noted, and I thank you. But the cat's out of the bag and it's a small matter. Call me Diane any time you want, though I'm rather fond of Bright Green - it always makes me laugh. I'm not so sure about the "bright" part but, boy, I DO have opinions.


Oops. I guess I should read a little farther before I put in my 2cents worth. I agree with you most of the time!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> The question isn't for me, but the TPP is a total disaster and I can't stand the way it has been handled---keeping everyone in the dark. Transparency? I don't think so. Bad for US workers.


I agree completely.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> The question isn't for me, but the TPP is a total disaster and I can't stand the way it has been handled---keeping everyone in the dark. Transparency? I don't think so. Bad for US workers.


They discussed TPP on The Ed Schultz show today and he had a couple of Dem. reps. on. They said they are being given a little more info than they had before but not enough. Ed said he has been disappointed that Pelosi isn't pushing harder for more disclosure but the reps thought she has been trying very hard to get more information out there. Sounds like once again we will be up against governments who will give aid to their corporations so they can undersell us and we will have an ever worsening balance of trade that will cause more job loss. They said Wall street likes it and that is no surprise. Obama has to stop pushing this and hopefully he won't get the votes it needs to pass. He is so wrong on this.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> They discussed TPP on The Ed Schultz show today and he had a couple of Dem. reps. on. They said they are being given a little more info than they had before but not enough. Ed said he has been disappointed that Pelosi isn't pushing harder for more disclosure but the reps thought she has been trying very hard to get more information out there. Sounds like once again we will be up against governments who will give aid to their corporations so they can undersell us and we will have an ever worsening balance of trade that will cause more job loss. They said Wall street likes it and that is no surprise. Obama has to stop pushing this and hopefully he won't get the votes it needs to pass. He is so wrong on this.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

The TPP will be very detrimental to the American people. And yet, the president wants to fast track it, and get it passed before the people know what's in it. If the TPP isn't proof that both parties are owned by corporate interests, I don't know what is. We need to know, and understand what our government is doing. And we need to demand answers, to why they are trying to act against our best interests.

While we don't know exactly what is in the TPP, enough information has leaked to tell us that th moois only benefits corporations. Here's just a little that we know about the TPP:

First and foremost, the TPP takes away our sovereignty. If a multinational corporation doesn't like our environmental laws or minimum wage laws, they could challenge them, not in a United States court, but before a tribunal of lawyers, hired by those very multinational corporations. Decisions made by that tribunal, would supersede our laws.

Protections for our environment, would mean nothing, as these multinational corporations could decide to pollute anything, if it is in their own best interests.

Jobs would flood out of the United States, creating even more income inequality.

The TPP would undermine our food safety laws. We would be required to import food that does not meet our safety standards. The TPP would also impose limits on food labeling.

The TPP would also give big pharma the power to charge more for life saving medicines. Prices on drugs will increase.

The TPP would do away with financial regulations on banks. They would be free to take part in any risky venture, and taxpayers would be on the hook for their losses. Remember, "too big to fail"?

The TPP would curtail internet freedom and require service providers to "police" user activity.

The TPP's special investor protections would incentivize off shoring, by providing incentives for companies that leave. It would impose limits on how our elected officials can use tax dollars and would ban "buy American" or "buy local" preferences.

This information is only that which has been leaked. Who knows, what else is included in the TPP? Any politician that votes for the TPP, should be considered an enemy of the people! This does not benefit the people!

Summary of the TPP: http://www.citizen.org/TPP

Editorial by Elizabeth Warren:http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/kill-the-dispute-settlement-language-in-the-trans-pacific-partnership/2015/02/25/ec7705a2-bd1e-11e4-b274-e5209a3bc9a9_story.html

Editorial by Jan Schakowsy on the TPP's effect on drug prices:http://thehill.com/opinion/op-ed/234801-us-trade-policy-could-raise-drug-prices-at-home-and-abroad


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The TPP will be very detrimental to the American people. And yet, the president wants to fast track it, and get it passed before the people know what's in it. If the TPP isn't proof that both parties are owned by corporate interests, I don't know what is. We need to know, and understand what our government is doing. And we need to demand answers, to why they are trying to act against our best interests.
> 
> While we don't know exactly what is in the TPP, enough information has leaked to tell us that th moois only benefits corporations. Here's just a little that we know about the TPP:
> 
> ...


I agree completely. This is a nightmare. How can we stop it?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Thanks Nebs for taking the time to show me what TPP is. I guess I should be shocked that Obama is accepting this bleep. But my dad's words reverberate thru my head - "all presidents are puppets". Not good, not good at all.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I agree completely. This is a nightmare. How can we stop it?


I doubt that we CAN stop it. Our government has been bought and paid for, by multinational corporations. I think that en masse, we need to write and call our representatives. I don't think it will help, but we need to let them know that we're on to them. We need to stop being sheep, led to the slaughter. We need to stop expending our efforts, arguing over which party cares about us, and recognize that neither party cares about us.

IMO: We're being deceived by a two party system that is designed to turn us against each other, and keep us busy fighting over issues, while a multi national corporate agenda moves forward. The media that informs us, is owned by that multi national corporate group. They tell us what they want us to hear, and nothing else. We need to be aware. And we need to stop voting for the candidates that they support, financially. They choose our candidates and wrap them up with pretty paper and bows, and then tell us we have a choice. From now on, I'm only going to vote for the little guy, who has no campaign funds, the one no one has heard of.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Thanks Nebs for taking the time to show me what TPP is. I guess I should be shocked that Obama is accepting this bleep. But my dad's words reverberate thru my head - "all presidents are puppets". Not good, not good at all.


I agree that presidents are puppets! Obama is no different than the rest, except that he can't give a speech from notes. He has to read it from a teleprompter. He says and does what those who put him there, tell him to.

I'd like just one person to give me one good reason, why obama would want to fast track the TPP.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree that presidents are puppets! Obama is no different than the rest, except that he can't give a speech from notes. He has to read it from a teleprompter. He says and does what those who put him there, tell him to.
> 
> I'd like just one person to give me one good reason, why obama would want to fast track the TPP.


I can't think of any reason. I'm quite upset about the whole thing and so are a lot of other people.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Here's something else that should concern everyone. 
The Iranians (who obama apparently trusts more than the Israelis), have endorsed using an EMP weapon against the United States.

For those who are unfamiliar with EMP weapons, EMP stands for Electro Magnetic Pulse. An EMP can occur naturally from the radiation that the sun puts out, or it can be caused by a very small nuclear bomb being exploded into the atmosphere. Nothing on the ground is damaged by the explosion itself, but it takes out the electrical grid. Placed strategically, it could take out our country's entire electrical grid. Our government employed a commission to study the effects of an EMP, on our country. It was determined that 90% of our population would die within the first year following an EMP event. This particular article says that it would take one year to rebuild the grid, but I read the EMP Commission report and it says that it takes 15 months, from order to delivery of electrical transformers. We no longer build them in the US and must order them from China. So, I don't imagine that our grid would be up and running in one year. http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/iran-endorses-nuclear-emp-attack-on-united-states/article/2561733

I don't think we should trust Iran, ever! They hate us and are planning our destruction.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> There is wisdom in what you say. I also think we need to be mindful of the other side's attitudes and beliefs. Know the enemy.


I acknowledge you both Huck and green. I think if we ignore statements like those posted in the last couple of days and for the past years on something Like KP it gives them another foot upthe ladder. That Happened in Germany. This group speaks for truth as we see it and I hate to say that their group speaks to their truth as they see it. We have to answer back in my opinion, even if their stupid and dreadful words are repeated often ( which they are). We have to
call them on - it draws attention to their opinions.

People like those who post the horrible things stated on the public forums the past two days and on the new thread on the main forum started yesterday are spreading the word, and we must counter their words or more people will start believing it because no one is arguing. Some don't even make sense but try to brainwash, by stating over and over and over the same thing and to ridicule anyone who doesn't follow her personal agenda. It does just as much damage as the outright lies told by some of the others - as if it is truth.

I think it has to be fought back with words wherever we see them so that those who don't agree with them know that there are others who disagree and speak out.

I have wondered whether it is worth it to reply- I think you have to even if it is same old same old. If you don't they will be the only voice heard . I applaud the fact that the post by kC was posted pubicly. I think that the other one should be posted too. I am not an American but if I were, I would post every post, or give the link to the statement that oversteps the truth.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Thanks Nebs for taking the time to show me what TPP is. I guess I should be shocked that Obama is accepting this bleep. But my dad's words reverberate thru my head - "all presidents are puppets". Not good, not good at all.


Australia is part of the TPP and the news here is that we'll expect to pay much less for pharmaceuticals as one of the results. Go figure.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Well things are pretty bleak when ISIS starts killing people in their own places of worship. 140 something people were killed in 2 mosques in Yemen by 5 ISIS suicide bombers today. Over 300 people were injured also.

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/03/21/00/57/mosque-bombings-kill-77-in-yemen-capital


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I acknowledge you both Huck and green. I think if we ignore statements like those posted in the last couple of days and for the past years on something Like KP it gives them another foot upthe ladder. That Happened in Germany. This group speaks for truth as we see it and I hate to say that their group speaks to their truth as they see it. We have to answer back in my opinion, even if their stupid and dreadful words are repeated often ( which they are). We have to
> call them on - it draws attention to their opinions.
> 
> People like those who post the horrible things stated on the public forums the past two days and on the new thread on the main forum started yesterday are spreading the word, and we must counter their words or more people will start believing it because no one is arguing. Some don't even make sense but try to brainwash, by stating over and over and over the same thing and to ridicule anyone who doesn't follow her personal agenda. It does just as much damage as the outright lies told by some of the others - as if it is truth.
> ...


Yes, we have to speak up. Silence is consent.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Here's something else that should concern everyone.
> The Iranians (who obama apparently trusts more than the Israelis), have endorsed using an EMP weapon against the United States.
> 
> For those who are unfamiliar with EMP weapons, EMP stands for Electro Magnetic Pulse. An EMP can occur naturally from the radiation that the sun puts out, or it can be caused by a very small nuclear bomb being exploded into the atmosphere. Nothing on the ground is damaged by the explosion itself, but it takes out the electrical grid. Placed strategically, it could take out our country's entire electrical grid. Our government employed a commission to study the effects of an EMP, on our country. It was determined that 90% of our population would die within the first year following an EMP event. This particular article says that it would take one year to rebuild the grid, but I read the EMP Commission report and it says that it takes 15 months, from order to delivery of electrical transformers. We no longer build them in the US and must order them from China. So, I don't imagine that our grid would be up and running in one year. http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/iran-endorses-nuclear-emp-attack-on-united-states/article/2561733
> ...


I agree with you, Nebraska--but then we're pals with Saudi Arabia and they're a million times worse. Politics make strange bedfellows, as they say.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree with you, Nebraska--but then we're pals with Saudi Arabia and they're a million times worse. Politics make strange bedfellows, as they say.


I agree with you about the Saudis. But at least they don't want to kill us.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree with you, Nebraska--but then we're pals with Saudi Arabia and they're a million times worse. Politics make strange bedfellows, as they say.


Susan!! Welcome back! You were missed!


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Hello Friends. Gohmert is his nutty self and ready to start another War and Netanyahu is trying to smooth over his misbehavior. Obviously Netanyahu wants total freedom from us but is trying for dear life to hold on to the funds we so generously send to Israel. We need to rethink that situation. I am for strengthening our diplomatic ties with all Nations and particularly in that part of the World and look out for ourselves first and foremost. If we invest more in our own people, we will have less crime and problems which will stabilize us tremendously. We need to start being a least a little egotistical and less generous. It will be very beneficial.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> They discussed TPP on The Ed Schultz show today and he had a couple of Dem. reps. on. They said they are being given a little more info than they had before but not enough. Ed said he has been disappointed that Pelosi isn't pushing harder for more disclosure but the reps thought she has been trying very hard to get more information out there. Sounds like once again we will be up against governments who will give aid to their corporations so they can undersell us and we will have an ever worsening balance of trade that will cause more job loss. They said Wall street likes it and that is no surprise. Obama has to stop pushing this and hopefully he won't get the votes it needs to pass. He is so wrong on this.


Cheeky Blighter
I wish I had more insight into this issue. As I can see it now, it is not good for us. I wonder what I don't know. Obviously I am missing many pieces to this puzzle.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Susan!! Welcome back! You were missed!


Thanks, Patty. It feels good to be back!


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Susanmos2000
so nice to see you back. Huck


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Susanmos2000
> so nice to see you back. Huck


Thanks!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Welcome back, Susan.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

So true.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Cheeks - your memes are swell this evening.

(Did I use "memes" correctly?)


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

How are things going Susan? we missed you. I hope things are okay with you.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Thanks, Patty. It feels good to be back!


Where did you go Mos? Always nice to see you.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

SQM said:


> Cheeks - your memes are swell this evening.
> 
> (Did I use "memes" correctly?)


Spot on, SQM.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> So true.


The Koch brothers must have mooned him.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> The Koch brothers must have mooned him.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: You come up with the most hilarious ideas Brat! Thanks for always making me laugh.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> So true.


Cheeky Blighter
wonderful, thank you.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: You come up with the most hilarious ideas Brat! Thanks for always making me laugh.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Had to come up for air. The P&S was signed yesterday. They are paying about 13% more for the house than we asked for. Closing is June 15. The movers are moving our stuff out on June 9. A friend of mine whom Jonathan likes is helping us take our stuff that we will need with us for the month up to a cottage on a lake in Maine that we are renting from the day we move out of our house in Massachusetts until the day the new house is ready for us to move into. We will have a "boy car" with David, Jonathan, and our dog, and a "girl car" with my friend driving me and my cat. 
Now in preparation for the colder climate I am looking for long underwear made of the same stuff that Sockwell socks are made of, Hmmm.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Camacho said:


> Had to come up for air. The P&S was signed yesterday. They are paying about 13% more for the house than we asked for. Closing is June 15. The movers are moving our stuff out on June 9. A friend of mine whom Jonathan likes is helping us take our stuff that we will need with us for the month up to a cottage on a lake in Maine that we are renting from the day we move out of our house in Massachusetts until the day the new house is ready for us to move into. We will have a "boy car" with David, Jonathan, and our dog, and a "girl car" with my friend driving me and my cat.
> Now in preparation for the colder climate I am looking for long underwear made of the same stuff that Sockwell socks are made of, Hmmm.


Camacho
sounds like everything is going smoothly. That is always nice to hear.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sounds like an exciting time for you and everything is working out well. Good for you.



Camacho said:


> Had to come up for air. The P&S was signed yesterday. They are paying about 13% more for the house than we asked for. Closing is June 15. The movers are moving our stuff out on June 9. A friend of mine whom Jonathan likes is helping us take our stuff that we will need with us for the month up to a cottage on a lake in Maine that we are renting from the day we move out of our house in Massachusetts until the day the new house is ready for us to move into. We will have a "boy car" with David, Jonathan, and our dog, and a "girl car" with my friend driving me and my cat.
> Now in preparation for the colder climate I am looking for long underwear made of the same stuff that Sockwell socks are made of, Hmmm.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Camacho said:


> Had to come up for air. The P&S was signed yesterday. They are paying about 13% more for the house than we asked for. Closing is June 15. The movers are moving our stuff out on June 9. A friend of mine whom Jonathan likes is helping us take our stuff that we will need with us for the month up to a cottage on a lake in Maine that we are renting from the day we move out of our house in Massachusetts until the day the new house is ready for us to move into. We will have a "boy car" with David, Jonathan, and our dog, and a "girl car" with my friend driving me and my cat.
> Now in preparation for the colder climate I am looking for long underwear made of the same stuff that Sockwell socks are made of, Hmmm.


It must feel good to have the unknowns out of the way so you can prepare for the new. Like needing long underwear June.

What are Sockwell socks? Are you planning to knit the underwear?

Semper ubi sub ubi!


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Thank you.
Sockwell socks and Smartwool are the only wools that I can tolerate next to my skin. Sockwell is better. It is a blend of merino, cashmere, nylon, and one other fiber -- is it silk? I will have to look it up. But anyway, if wool is recommended then I need something. Maine is a few degrees cooler than Massachusetts.

I don't think my knitting skills are up to knitting my own long underwear before the cold weather comes, but if I can get some yarn at least I can try. I will finish a set some year. The other route I can take is to find out if anyone makes the stuff. I think I will try both ways. I can't handle wool for more than a few minutes, so Sockwell socks are wonderful.

When I go up there this weekend I will be signing a contract with the builder and will be furniture shopping with my daughter, and will be pushing drawn-to-scale paper pieces of furniture around on a blown-up floor plan of the new house with her. So today and tomorrow I am measuring the furniture we have that we want to take with us and Eliana asked me to take pictures of it as well.

And I get to call the vet to make sure the cat and the dog have all they need to move to a new state, and to call the woman back whom I spoke with on Friday about setting up services for Jonathan in Maine.

Elizabeth had her 20-months evaluation from the home visitor, and the results are that she is in the first percentile for weight, first or third percentile for height, way ahead of the game for gross motor skills and social development, and right on target for everything else. So she is not on the autism spectrum. What a relief!!!! She is using a new word every day now, too.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Camacho said:


> Thank you.
> Sockwell socks and Smartwool are the only wools that I can tolerate next to my skin. Sockwell is better. It is a blend of merino, cashmere, nylon, and one other fiber -- is it silk? I will have to look it up. But anyway, if wool is recommended then I need something. Maine is a few degrees cooler than Massachusetts.
> 
> I don't think my knitting skills are up to knitting my own long underwear before the cold weather comes, but if I can get some yarn at least I can try. I will finish a set some year. The other route I can take is to find out if anyone makes the stuff. I think I will try both ways. I can't handle wool for more than a few minutes, so Sockwell socks are wonderful.
> ...


Suggesting that you knit the underwear was just one of my flat-falling jokes. I would guess that it's a really boring, slow-moving process. The wool sensitivity must make knitting really tough. Certainly there are other fibers to knit with, but aren't most of the suggested fibers some form of wool? In fact, isn't merino a kind of wool? Still, I wouldn't complain if all I had to work with were yarns made of merino, cashmere, and silk. I can even tolerate nylon.

Things are beginning to move fast for you. Now you get to play with room plans (which I recently did; it was fun). It sounds as though you're really prepared for anything. And as for Elizabeth, great news! I remember the new word (or 5 or 6) every day period. It allowed for wonderfully funny conversations. DS, at a year and a half, would correct his father's grammar. (H: Mommy is a good cook. S: Cooker. Mommy is a good cooker!)


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Well I can also tolerate cashmere somewhat, and silk, but not nylon except for these blends. I use a lot of cotton in my knitting, except for the time I tried to make a diaper cover for my granddaughter and used alpaca, which was fine until it got washed. Then it felt like steel wool. I used to have a cashmere sweater many years ago that my inn-laws had given me, but when I very quickly scratched a hole in the sleeve because my skin was so irritated even with a shirt under it, they told me that they would never give me any cashmere clothes again. It feels soft until I have to wear it. But those blends are fine in socks, and a friend of mine recently told me that I will need wool long-johns and I should have a set. Elizabeth's funny conversation came the day she started using the word "dead." She is referring to food that isn't any good, so to her, since she and strawberries do not get along, strawberries are dead. She pointed to something that either a human had left out or that the dog or a cat might eat, and said, "Is this dead?" I think moving the paper pieces of furniture around on the floor plan is one of the most fun parts of moving. David and I just measured a bunch of our furniture this evening.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Camacho said:


> Well I can also tolerate cashmere somewhat, and silk, but not nylon except for these blends. I use a lot of cotton in my knitting, except for the time I tried to make a diaper cover for my granddaughter and used alpaca, which was fine until it got washed. Then it felt like steel wool. I used to have a cashmere sweater many years ago that my inn-laws had given me, but when I very quickly scratched a hole in the sleeve because my skin was so irritated even with a shirt under it, they told me that they would never give me any cashmere clothes again. It feels soft until I have to wear it. But those blends are fine in socks, and a friend of mine recently told me that I will need wool long-johns and I should have a set. Elizabeth's funny conversation came the day she started using the word "dead." She is referring to food that isn't any good, so to her, since she and strawberries do not get along, strawberries are dead. She pointed to something that either a human had left out or that the dog or a cat might eat, and said, "Is this dead?" I think moving the paper pieces of furniture around on the floor plan is one of the most fun parts of moving. David and I just measured a bunch of our furniture this evening.


Maybe you should try knitting with qiviut http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qiviut. It's supposed to be the softest wool in the world. And for only $108 you can get an ounce of pure quiviut lace weight, 218 yards of it. Two yards for a dollar - how can you go wrong?

It's funny that Elizabeth used "dead" to mean "not good." It's like the expression "you're dead to me." How old did you say she was?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Camacho said:


> Well I can also tolerate cashmere somewhat, and silk, but not nylon except for these blends. I use a lot of cotton in my knitting, except for the time I tried to make a diaper cover for my granddaughter and used alpaca, which was fine until it got washed. Then it felt like steel wool. I used to have a cashmere sweater many years ago that my inn-laws had given me, but when I very quickly scratched a hole in the sleeve because my skin was so irritated even with a shirt under it, they told me that they would never give me any cashmere clothes again. It feels soft until I have to wear it. But those blends are fine in socks, and a friend of mine recently told me that I will need wool long-johns and I should have a set. Elizabeth's funny conversation came the day she started using the word "dead." She is referring to food that isn't any good, so to her, since she and strawberries do not get along, strawberries are dead. She pointed to something that either a human had left out or that the dog or a cat might eat, and said, "Is this dead?" I think moving the paper pieces of furniture around on the floor plan is one of the most fun parts of moving. David and I just measured a bunch of our furniture this evening.


My mother used to wear silk long johns. Lightweight and very warm with a luxurious feel. Just a thought.


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Elizabeth is 20 months old.

qiviut? Hmm. I should try it for something small. It might be fun to knit something special with. I enjoyed knitting with alpace, but to use wool I generally need to keep my hands slathered with the thickest moisturizer I can find, and keep it slathered. Harks back to the day when allergies were really popular, and I took the blood test on a dare, claiming that either I was allergic to nothing at all or to half the known universe. That's one dare that I lost. I was right that either I had no allergies, sensitivities, or intolerances at all, or I would be found to be allergic to half the known universe. But the friend who dared me to do it was rightat the time, too. Oops. Oh well.

Silk sounds really good. I once had a pair of silk sock liners that were wonderful,

Tomorrow morning I will be on an early bus to Bangor to spend a long weekend up there. David has helped me measure all the furniture that we want to take to our new house, so I have the measurements written down. Maybe Eliana and I can cut out the pieces to the scale of the floor plan and start pushing them around. We are looking forward to that.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I need to talk. I'm not trying to foist this upon everyone, so if you don't want to read it, move on.

Twenty one years ago, my husband was brother asked us to take his daughter. She was 10 1/2 months old. Soon after, it became apparent that both he and his girlfriend were both drug addicts and alcoholics. We eventually adopted our niece, so I will refer to her as my daughter from here on. My daughter's bio mom was calling me collect, every day and saying some crazy stuff, so within a week, I started keeping journals of every phone call and conversation. 

We lived in St Louis and they lived on Omaha. We made every effort for them to be able to visit her. We came to Omaha quite a bit to see family and friends, but they were always too busy to see her. Neither of them cared about her. They sent her no birthday or Christmas cards or gifts and didn't see her. 

When she was turning two, her bio dad had left the bio mom. Bio mom wanted to come live with us. Obviously, we said NO! So, she told me she wanted to get the baby back so she could get welfare and a free apartment. We went directly to a lawyer. We filed to adopt her. We had a long drawn out custody battle. It was only long because they wouldn't file their papers or talk to their pro bono attorney (because he was black) or talk to the guardian ad litem (the Atty representing our daughter). They were living in Kansas City by this time, so were much closer to St Louis. The judge ordered visitation to be in our home, supervised by us (a horrible ordeal for all of us). They were given 15 visits but only bothered to come 6 times. They never showed up for the final court hearing and their lawyer asked to be dismissed because they wouldn't talk to him and called him the n word. The judge wouldn't let him quit and the case went forward without them. Needless to say, we won. 

She was four when we finally adopted her. Because of the court ordered visitation, she knew them and their existence as "the other mommy and daddy", so we decided to let them see her under certain conditions. They couldn't say anything bad about us and we wouldn't say anything bad about them. They had to put her needs over their own. 

A lot of crap happened in the next few years, but long story short, bio mom had a baby. She said the baby was his and he believed it so he took off for Minneapolis to avoid child support. Then bio mom was making many demands on me and said my daughter couldn't see her sister if I didn't comply. Then she stole money from me so we were done. 

Neither of them had any further contact with my daughter. She was eventually diagnosed with attachment disorder while in middle school. She was seeing psychologists and psychaiatrsts. We were told to tell her, her story, all of it. She needed to know, in order to heal. I also showed her where I'd kept the journals and gave her permission to read them, if she ever wanted to.

Fast forward to a year and a half ago. She was 21. Bio dad contacted her through facebook. He wanted to get to know her. She wanted that as well, until he lied to her. He told her, we stole her away from them and they couldn't fight it because they were too poor (their income had been $100 a month, less than ours and we were supporting four children). He told her all kinds of lies and she called me, crying. I reminded her of the journals and invited her to come and look at them. She came and read just a few pages and knew he'd lied. So, she wanted nothing to do with him after that. He had asked her if she wanted him to tell bio mom how to contact her. She said NO! She did not want contact with her (she remembered bio mom not letting her see her sister, and then her sister being beaten to death by bio mom's boyfriend). He told bio mom anyway which upset my daughter. She ended up blocking her on facebook. 

Last summer she saw bio dad at her grandpa's funeral. Her fiancée caught bio dad, checking out her a$$. They were both disgusted. He tried to get back into her life but she told him, she wanted nothing to do with him. 

Well, now he's been diagnosed with lung cancer and he's trying to make her feel guilty. He keeps begging her and telling her how much he always loved her. He's also trying to get his mother (my daughter's grandma) to get my daughter to call him and come to Minneapolis. Mil won't, because she knows the truth. 

Anyway, I don't know why my daughter won't change her phone number and block him on facebook. I asked her if she secretly wanted to get to know him and she adamantly said NO. I've told her that she doesn't owe him anything and that she should do what she needs to do, for herself. Whether that means seeing him or not seeing him. She doesn't want to see him or talk to him. 

So, I don't know why I spilled my guts but she's on my mind. I love her with every ounce of my being. Do you think I should call him and tell him to leave her alone? Or should I just be there for her when she wants to talk? She's not holding anything in. She calls or texts me every time she hears from him. Any suggestions?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I need to talk. I'm not trying to foist this upon everyone, so if you don't want to read it, move on.
> 
> Twenty one years ago, my husband was brother asked us to take his daughter. She was 10 1/2 months old. Soon after, it became apparent that both he and his girlfriend were both drug addicts and alcoholics. We eventually adopted our niece, so I will refer to her as my daughter from here on. My daughter's bio mom was calling me collect, every day and saying some crazy stuff, so within a week, I started keeping journals of every phone call and conversation.
> 
> ...


KFN, sorry to hear all of this is happening to you and your daughter. I usually don't give advice in situations like this, but this time I will. It is almost the same story involving my cousin and her daughter.
I would just let her do what she is doing and be ready for anything that is thrown your way. There could be a lot of anger and hurt stored up after all the years of not hearing from bio dad. You may even catch some hell even though you don't deserve it.
Do you think that she is punishing him by not acknowledging him on face book? Or by not talking to him when he calls?
I know when people are dying they seek forgiveness. Maybe she isn't ready to do this yet. 
Just be the loving mother that you have been and provide the ever strong shoulder that we mothers have. You have friends here who are always ready to listen and provide a shoulder for you.

He really checked out her a$$? Pig!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Camacho said:


> Thank you.
> Sockwell socks and Smartwool are the only wools that I can tolerate next to my skin. Sockwell is better. It is a blend of merino, cashmere, nylon, and one other fiber -- is it silk? I will have to look it up. But anyway, if wool is recommended then I need something. Maine is a few degrees cooler than Massachusetts.
> 
> I don't think my knitting skills are up to knitting my own long underwear before the cold weather comes, but if I can get some yarn at least I can try. I will finish a set some year. The other route I can take is to find out if anyone makes the stuff. I think I will try both ways. I can't handle wool for more than a few minutes, so Sockwell socks are wonderful.
> ...


camacho,
sounds like things are going as planned! 
Check out LL Bean. You might find what you are looking for.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> KFN, sorry to hear all of this is happening to you and your daughter. I usually don't give advice in situations like this, but this time I will. It is almost the same story involving my cousin and her daughter.
> I would just let her do what she is doing and be ready for anything that is thrown your way. There could be a lot of anger and hurt stored up after all the years of not hearing from bio dad. You may even catch some hell even though you don't deserve it.
> Do you think that she is punishing him by not acknowledging him on face book? Or by not talking to him when he calls?
> I know when people are dying they seek forgiveness. Maybe she isn't ready to do this yet.
> ...


You're right! Thank you. I'll stay out of it and just be there, for her. It's hard being a mother, and seeing our children hurt. But I'll do it.

He has always been a pig!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You're right! Thank you. I'll stay out of it and just be there, for her. It's hard being a mother, and seeing our children hurt. But I'll do it.
> 
> He has always been a pig!


You are right. No matter how old they get, when they hurt we hurt.

Hugs!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> You are right. No matter how old they get, when they hurt we hurt.
> 
> Hugs!


Thanks!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You're right! Thank you. I'll stay out of it and just be there, for her. It's hard being a mother, and seeing our children hurt. But I'll do it.
> 
> He has always been a pig!


Remember you are among friends here. So vent when you need to - We all care about each other and we all are friends. You are one of us. Please hang in there - it sounds as if you have made a 'soft place for her to land' I am so glad she shares what is happening with you. You both gain by that.

Thoughts are once again with you, Shirley


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Remember you are among friends here. So vent when you need to - We all care about each other and we all are friends. You are one of us. Please hang in there - it sounds as if you have made a 'soft place for her to land' I am so glad she shares what is happening with you. You both gain by that.
> 
> Thoughts are once again with you, Shirley


Thank you, Shirley!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

I read your daughter's story, Nebraska--what an awful mess! I'm so sorry you're going through this, but take heart...your daughter sounds like a strong young lady who will find her way through. 
Hugs!


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Oh Lordy, KFN. My heart goes out to you and to your daughter.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sounds like you're doing everything right. She has a lot to process. It's good that she has you for support. I'm so sorry you're suffering. Hugs



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I need to talk. I'm not trying to foist this upon everyone, so if you don't want to read it, move on.
> 
> Twenty one years ago, my husband was brother asked us to take his daughter. She was 10 1/2 months old. Soon after, it became apparent that both he and his girlfriend were both drug addicts and alcoholics. We eventually adopted our niece, so I will refer to her as my daughter from here on. My daughter's bio mom was calling me collect, every day and saying some crazy stuff, so within a week, I started keeping journals of every phone call and conversation.
> 
> ...


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You're right! Thank you. I'll stay out of it and just be there, for her. It's hard being a mother, and seeing our children hurt. But I'll do it.
> 
> He has always been a pig!


I agree with the Brat's advice. I'm so sorry you're going through this angst. It is hard being a mother, you don't want to see them hurting or confused ever.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I agree with the Brat's advice. I'm so sorry you're going through this angst. It is hard being a mother, you don't want to see them hurting or confused ever.


Good morning, Wombat!!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Good morning, Wombat!!


Good morning Dear Brat! Hope today finds you well and comfortable. I've found this on this day that you are very funny! Thanks for the laughs once again!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I read your daughter's story, Nebraska--what an awful mess! I'm so sorry you're going through this, but take heart...your daughter sounds like a strong young lady who will find her way through.
> Hugs!


Thank you, Susan.
You're right. My daughter is a strong young lady. She's grown so much and has come through so much, she amazes me. Just last summer, she got a job as a pharmacy tech, and now she's taking classes to become a senior pharmacy tech. She's passed her pre test and we're so proud of her. Before this, she wasn't interested in doing anything. For her, this is a big deal. She's happy, and that means more to me, than anything. I just hate it, that when her life finally settles down, he has to enter the picture.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Camacho said:


> Oh Lordy, KFN. My heart goes out to you and to your daughter.


Thanks, Camacho!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Sounds like you're doing everything right. She has a lot to process. It's good that she has you for support. I'm so sorry you're suffering. Hugs


Thanks for the hugs, dame!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I agree with the Brat's advice. I'm so sorry you're going through this angst. It is hard being a mother, you don't want to see them hurting or confused ever.


Thanks, Wombat!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you, Susan.
> You're right. My daughter is a strong young lady. She's grown so much and has come through so much, she amazes me. Just last summer, she got a job as a pharmacy tech, and now she's taking classes to become a senior pharmacy tech. She's passed her pre test and we're so proud of her. Before this, she wasn't interested in doing anything. For her, this is a big deal. She's happy, and that means more to me, than anything. I just hate it, that when her life finally settles down, he has to enter the picture.


He only enters her life as much as she permits. She's got Mom (and there is only one Mom) for support. Thinking of you.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> He only enters her life as much as she permits. She's got Mom (and there is only one Mom) for support. Thinking of you.


Thank you, dame!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Things just get weirder and weirder. My daughter's bio dad sent her an article saying that her bio mom has been arrested for....get ready for it....cattle rustling, in Nebraska and Iowa! How bizarre is that? I googled it, it's true. This won't be her first trip to jail either. I hope they throw away the keys. Bio dad's lung cancer has spread throughout his body, so he doesn't have too long. Sometimes, there is justice!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Things just get weirder and weirder. My daughter's bio dad sent her an article saying that her bio mom has been arrested for....get ready for it....cattle rustling, in Nebraska and Iowa! How bizarre is that? I googled it, it's true. This won't be her first trip to jail either. I hope they throw away the keys. Bio dad's lung cancer has spread throughout his body, so he doesn't have too long. Sometimes, there is justice!


I didn't know that cattle rustling was still a 'thing'. She has been blessed with you as her mother.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I didn't know that cattle rustling was still a 'thing'. She has been blessed with you as her mother.


No kidding. The biological mom's crime is so bizarre it's almost funny. Nebraska's daughter has indeed been blessed.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> No kidding. The biological mom's crime is so bizarre it's almost funny. Nebraska's daughter has indeed been blessed.


I am picturing a woman on a horse with a bandana covering her face yelling "Gid up doggies, whoop!
I am sure they just lead them into the back of a truck and take off with them these days, but the image of it....


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Ladies:

What the heck is going on in Indiana? Gov. Pence just signed a bill allowing businesses to refuse service to gays & lesbians. He is allowing Hoosiers to exercise their religious freedom. Blatant discrimination and I hope a lawsuit is filed.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> Ladies:
> 
> What the heck is going on in Indiana? Gov. Pence just signed a bill allowing businesses to refuse service to gays & lesbians. He is allowing Hoosiers to exercise their religious freedom. Blatant discrimination and I hope a lawsuit is filed.


I can't say I am surprised, GW. I hope along with you that they get a huge lawsuit going. Indiana is full of nasty bigots.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I am picturing a woman on a horse with a bandana covering her face yelling "Gid up doggies, whoop!
> I am sure they just lead them into the back of a truck and take off with them these days, but the image of it....


No, picture a meth addict and her friends stealing a cattle trailer, and then going around stealing cattle.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No, picture a meth addict and her friends stealing a cattle trailer, and then going around stealing cattle.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: 
The thought is hilarious, but the situation isn't.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> Ladies:
> 
> What the heck is going on in Indiana? Gov. Pence just signed a bill allowing businesses to refuse service to gays & lesbians. He is allowing Hoosiers to exercise their religious freedom. Blatant discrimination and I hope a lawsuit is filed.


How DARE he allow anyone to exercise their Constitutional rights?!? Oh! Remember the Constitution?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Don't they say something about going round and coming round? Cattle rustling in NB and IA? She's in hot water. Good. Talk about a dumb move. (Of course you never said she was playing with a full deck.)



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Things just get weirder and weirder. My daughter's bio dad sent her an article saying that her bio mom has been arrested for....get ready for it....cattle rustling, in Nebraska and Iowa! How bizarre is that? I googled it, it's true. This won't be her first trip to jail either. I hope they throw away the keys. Bio dad's lung cancer has spread throughout his body, so he doesn't have too long. Sometimes, there is justice!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Didn't they used to hang horse theives? Can cattle rustlers be far behind? Git along little doggies.



BrattyPatty said:


> I am picturing a woman on a horse with a bandana covering her face yelling "Gid up doggies, whoop!
> I am sure they just lead them into the back of a truck and take off with them these days, but the image of it....


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> Don't they say something about going round and coming round? Cattle rustling in NB and IA? She's in hot water. Good. Talk about a dumb move. (Of course you never said she was playing with a full deck.)


They say that meth addicts are harder to rehabilitate than heroin addicts.
Nasty stuff!


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

The Constitution doesn't have anything in in about refusing people service. 

What's next? Their religion allows them to refuse service to anyone that is another color?

What a huge step backward this governor has taken.

Cue the lawsuits....


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That should put the governor of IN in touch with lawyers for a long time. Why don't they do some work instead of this grand-standing?



GWPlver said:


> Ladies:
> 
> What the heck is going on in Indiana? Gov. Pence just signed a bill allowing businesses to refuse service to gays & lesbians. He is allowing Hoosiers to exercise their religious freedom. Blatant discrimination and I hope a lawsuit is filed.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No, picture a meth addict and her friends stealing a cattle trailer, and then going around stealing cattle.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: You're killing me laughing. Are you making this up?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Now a gay couple will not be able to sue a florist, a baker, or a photographer, if they refuse to be involved in the so called marriage ceremony, since it goes against their religious belief. There are many other florists, bakers, and photographers that are able to provide the requested services.
> 
> Now the florist, baker, photographer, or anyone else will have the Freedom to exercise their Religious beliefs, without being forced to comply or close their business.


Bleh! I'd love to see what he'd do if one religion didn't recognize another religion and refused to provide services to them. What a load of codswallop!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: You're killing me laughing. Are you making this up?


Oh, believe me! I could NOT make this up! My imagination wouldn't stretch that far. Bizarro!

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/28/3-omaha-residents-suspected-in-iowa-nebraska-cattl/
http://m.ketv.com/news/3-omaha-residents-suspected-in-iowa-nebraska-cattle-thefts/30966222
http://journalstar.com/news/state-and-regional/nebraska/three-arrested-in-cattle-thefts/article_f8967114-b511-57e2-804c-0fc668851f8f.html

Try not to laugh so hard that you wet your pants.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Time to get out of town and leave no forwarding address. Do you think she will contact you or your daughter for help?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh, believe me! I could NOT make this up! My imagination wouldn't stretch that far. Bizarro!
> 
> http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/28/3-omaha-residents-suspected-in-iowa-nebraska-cattl/
> http://m.ketv.com/news/3-omaha-residents-suspected-in-iowa-nebraska-cattle-thefts/30966222
> ...


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Governor Pences statement after he signed the bill into law
> 
> _Today I signed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, because I support the freedom of religion for every Hoosier of every faith.
> 
> ...


Uh-huh. And I suppose the ER doctor is now free to tell the guy having a coronary to take himself and his dying heart somewhere else because treating him is against the physician's religious beliefs. Nice.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

What is he thinking of? Oh, never mind.



susanmos2000 said:


> Uh-huh. And I suppose the ER doctor is now free to tell the guy having a coronary to take himself and his dying heart somewhere else because treating him is against the physician's religious beliefs. Nice.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> The Constitution doesn't have anything in in about refusing people service.
> 
> What's next? Their religion allows them to refuse service to anyone that is another color?
> 
> ...


And can you imagine the uproar if a Muslim refused service to a Christian?


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

damemary said:


> What is he thinking of? Oh, never mind.


....he wasn't.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I wonder if that would be a teaching moment?



GWPlver said:


> And can you imagine the uproar if a Muslim refused service to a Christian?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My Dad always said there is usually an answer in your question. You found this one.



GWPlver said:


> ....he wasn't.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

damemary said:


> I wonder if that would be a teaching moment?


It could be if an open mind prevailed.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> And can you imagine the uproar if a Muslim refused service to a Christian?


Well, that DOES happen but the media is pretty silent on the subject. If its OK to force Christians to bake a cake enforcing homosexual marriage, is it OK to force homosexuals to bake cakes for Christians that say homosexual marriage is wrong?

Should we force halel (muslim) butchers or kosher (jewish) butchers to slaughter and process pigs? Just because they shouldn't discriminate against Christians, who eat pork?

What about muslim cashiers who refuse to ring up bacon or other pork? Should they be sued? Bankrupted?

What about muslim or Jewish caterers who refuse to serve pork? Should we put them out of business? Take away everything they've worked for?

If we were going to be "fair" to one, we'd have to be "fair" to all. In the end, ALL of us would lose our religious freedoms. If a bakery won't bake you a cake, find one that will! Or bake your own. No one should be forced to do something that's against their beliefs. Not Christians. Not Jews. And not Muslims.

Christian man asks 13 "gay" bakeries to bake a cake that supports traditional marriage.
http://shoebat.com/2014/12/12/christian-man-asks-thirteen-gay-bakeries-bake-pro-traditional-marriage-cake-denied-service-watch-shocking-video/

Gay judge refuses to marry heterosexuals.http://www.libertynews.com/2014/10/gay-judge-refuses-to-marry-heteros-but-christians-better-not-try-to-discriminate-like-that/

Target transfers cashiers who won't ring up pork.http://www.nbcnews.com/id/17665989/ns/business-us_business/t/target-shifts-muslims-who-wont-ring-pork/#.VRXAUowo5eR

Muslim Costco employee sues after Costco transfers him to another job after he refuses to ring up pork.http://pamelageller.com/2015/03/muslim-costco-employee-refuses-to-touch-pork-sues-after-getting-transferred-to-different-department.html/

The EEOC gives muslims an exemption for pork handling and prayer breaks.http://overlawyered.com/2008/11/eeoc-settlement-pork-handling-prayer-breaks-for-muslim-workers/

The govt sues trucking company for firing drivers who will not deliver alcohol.http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/obama-inc-sues-trucking-company-for-firing-muslim-drivers-who-refused-to-deliver-alcohol/

Religious rights are human rights.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> It could be if an open mind prevailed.


How open is your mind?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Well, that DOES happen but the media is pretty silent on the subject. If its OK to force Christians to bake a cake enforcing homosexual marriage, is it OK to force homosexuals to bake cakes for Christians that say homosexual marriage is wrong?
> 
> Should we force halel (muslim) butchers or kosher (jewish) butchers to slaughter and process pigs? Just because they shouldn't discriminate against Christians, who eat pork?
> 
> ...


These links are very interesting, Nebraska--thanks for posting.

Upon reading, though, I don't feel most of the examples provided can be compared to the situation in Indiana. Most of folks mentioned in the links are individuals who refuse to do this or that because their religion forbids it--not the company as a whole. A Hindu trucker (for example) may refuse to drive a shipload of beef from point A to point B, but the dispatcher simply finds someone else and the job gets done. But those Hoosier bakers and photographers are, as a matter of company policy, turning suspected gays away at the door--surely there's a difference.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> These links are very interesting, Nebraska--thanks for posting.
> 
> Upon reading, though, I don't feel most of the examples provided can be compared to the situation in Indiana. Most of folks mentioned in the links are individuals who refuse to do this or that because their religion forbids it--not the company as a whole. A Hindu trucker (for example) may refuse to drive a shipload of beef from point A to point B, but the dispatcher simply finds someone else and the job gets done. But those Hoosier bakers and photographers are, as a matter of company policy, turning suspected gays away at the door--surely there's a difference.


Exatcly - there is a difference between one refusing to do a task YOURSELF and imposing religious belief on someone else by refusing them service. If a pharmacist has a problem dispensing birth control pills they're in the wrong profession. If they don't believe in using birth control themselves it doesn't affect anyone else and who cares? It's the judgmental imposition of their religion that is the problem.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The service in question is making a cake for a gay marriage celebration. Not in making a cake for a person who is in the gay lifestyle.
> 
> Or providing flowers for a gay wedding. Not in selling flowers to a person in the gay lifestyle.
> 
> ...


Are you giving lessons, joey? Judge not lest ye be judged.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The service in question is making a cake for a gay marriage celebration. Not in making a cake for a person who is in the gay lifestyle.
> 
> Or providing flowers for a gay wedding. Not in selling flowers to a person in the gay lifestyle.
> 
> ...


Do tell, joey what do we need to know about the Gay lifestyle? Why would we need to know any more about their lifestyle than we know about anyone else's? What's the difference and who are you to judge?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The service in question is making a cake for a gay marriage celebration. Not in making a cake for a person who is in the gay lifestyle.
> 
> Or providing flowers for a gay wedding. Not in selling flowers to a person in the gay lifestyle.
> 
> ...


How can you possibly know where other religious extremists are prepared to draw their loopy lines in the sand? To you, expressing your religious freedom means refusing gays marriage-related services--cakes, flowers, photographs. Bad enough. But others in the anti-LGBT crowd are prepared to take it a whole lot farther. We know this. Back in 2014, Kansas' Bill 2203 would have granted every employee--public and private--the right to refuse service to members of the gay community. Thankfully, the bill didn't pass--else gay drivers could have been turned away at the DMV, refused medical attention in clinics and hospitals, and had their tax returns languishing in the bowels of the IRS because this agent or that refused, on religious grounds, to process them.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

**


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> These links are very interesting, Nebraska--thanks for posting.
> 
> Upon reading, though, I don't feel most of the examples provided can be compared to the situation in Indiana. Most of folks mentioned in the links are individuals who refuse to do this or that because their religion forbids it--not the company as a whole. A Hindu trucker (for example) may refuse to drive a shipload of beef from point A to point B, but the dispatcher simply finds someone else and the job gets done. But those Hoosier bakers and photographers are, as a matter of company policy, turning suspected gays away at the door--surely there's a difference.


Your welcome.
But are you saying that its OK for individuals to refuse to do things that are against their beliefs, but not companies? What about the individuals who have put everything they have, into opening a bakery? Are they to give up their right to follow their religious beliefs? Or what about the small pharmacy in which the pharmacist is the owner? Must he give up his rights or face religious persecution? There is nowhere to draw the line. If anyone can be forced to act against their beliefs, then everyone can be forced to do the same.

If a gay person wants a wedding cake, let them find someone willing to bake it. If someone wants their pig butchered, let them find a butcher who's willing. If a trucking company needs someone to deliver alcohol, let them hire someone who will do that. If someone wants to sell something, let them decide what they want to sell. The thing that made America exceptional, was her Constitution. Where will we be, when they've eroded our rights? If we're not willing to stand up for the rights of others, no one will be there to stand up for ours.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Exatcly - there is a difference between one refusing to do a task YOURSELF and imposing religious belief on someone else by refusing them service. If a pharmacist has a problem dispensing birth control pills they're in the wrong profession. If they don't believe in using birth control themselves it doesn't affect anyone else and who cares? It's the judgmental imposition of their religion that is the problem.


Refusing to do a task yourself is NOT imposing your beliefs upon others. It's standing up for what you believe. If a pharmacy doesn't sell birth control pills, just go to one that does. It's called free will. If there is a demand for something, someone will sell it. If you owned a book store, could I insist that you carry the particular bible or religious books that I wanted? Could the Jews do the same? Or the muslims? No! It's YOUR store. YOU get to decide what books to carry. What do you think will happen when the government can dictate what we sell, or what we do? Where will it stop? You don't want others deciding for you, do you?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

The way I see it is that someone wants to buy a cake for a wedding. They are not asking the baker to have sex with them.
What ever happened to "love the sinner but hate the sin" that is preached so much around here?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> The service in question is making a cake for a gay marriage celebration. Not in making a cake for a person who is in the gay lifestyle.
> 
> Or providing flowers for a gay wedding. Not in selling flowers to a person in the gay lifestyle.
> 
> ...


I understand what you're saying. The Christian bakeries are not refusing to sell to "gay" people. They're refusing to bake a cake that represents something that they believe is wrong. You wanna buy a regular cake, cookies or donuts? Go ahead. But if you want someone to bake you a cake that celebrates "gay" weddings? Find someone who believes in "gay" weddings.

IMO, there is no such thing as "gay" marriage. The very definition of marriage, is a union between one man and one woman. If "gay" people want a union of their own, let them call it something else. But it isn't a marriage. But then, they've been able to change the meanings of words in the past, so they think they can do it again. Gay??? Really? What will they come up with next?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Are you giving lessons, joey? Judge not lest ye be judged.


I saw her statement as clarification, not judgment. How is she judging?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> How can you possibly know where other religious extremists are prepared to draw their loopy lines in the sand? To you, expressing your religious freedom means refusing gays marriage-related services--cakes, flowers, photographs. Bad enough. But others in the anti-LGBT crowd are prepared to take it a whole lot farther. We know this. Back in 2014, Kansas' Bill 2203 would have granted every employee--public and private--the right to refuse service to members of the gay community. Thankfully, the bill didn't pass--else gay drivers could have been turned away at the DMV, refused medical attention in clinics and hospitals, and had their tax returns languishing in the bowels of the IRS because this agent or that refused, on religious grounds, to process them.


IMO, any branch of government or entities that depend upon government funding, should not be allowed to refuse service to anyone. The government belongs to all of us. And they should only hire people who are willing and able to serve everyone equally. But private business, owned by individuals with rights and freedoms should be allowed to make what they want to make, and sell whatever they want to sell.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> !


The same holds true for the other side. How moral is it to pass laws that require people to act against their beliefs? Shouldn't everyone get to choose their own morals and beliefs? If not, who should decide for all of us? The Constitution is very specific about guaranteeing that right.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> **


Here's the misunderstanding, the Christian bakeries and t shirt shops etc...are not refusing to sell to others. They're refusing to provide the specific service that goes against their beliefs, ie "gay" wedding cakes, "gay" pride t shirts.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> The way I see it is that someone wants to buy a cake for a wedding. They are not asking the baker to have sex with them.
> What ever happened to "love the sinner but hate the sin" that is preached so much around here?


If they want a wedding cake, just buy a wedding cake without the topper, and add your own later. Then, the baker is just baking a cake, not providing support for something they don't believe in. Refusing to provide support for something you think is wrong, is not hate. It's standing up for what you believe.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Your welcome.
> But are you saying that its OK for individuals to refuse to do things that are against their beliefs, but not companies? What about the individuals who have put everything they have, into opening a bakery? Are they to give up their right to follow their religious beliefs? Or what about the small pharmacy in which the pharmacist is the owner? Must he give up his rights or face religious persecution? There is nowhere to draw the line. If anyone can be forced to act against their beliefs, then everyone can be forced to do the same.
> 
> If a gay person wants a wedding cake, let them find someone willing to bake it. If someone wants their pig butchered, let them find a butcher who's willing. If a trucking company needs someone to deliver alcohol, let them hire someone who will do that. If someone wants to sell something, let them decide what they want to sell. The thing that made America exceptional, was her Constitution. Where will we be, when they've eroded our rights? If we're not willing to stand up for the rights of others, no one will be there to stand up for ours.


You raise lots of interesting questions, Nebraska. Hmmm....

You ask if I'm saying its OK for individuals to refuse to do things but not companies...Not exactly. I suppose I feel that companies are required to provide service for customers irregardless of race, religion, creed (and now) sexual orientation, but the mechanics of providing that service are up to them. Lots of businesses are open seven days a week but willing to accommodate the Christian employee who needs Sunday off, or the Jewish person who doesn't want on Saturday. Years ago I worked for a research company that assembled panels of folks to try out new products and give their opinions, and we recruiters always had the option of opting out of studies involving booze or cigarettes. If a manager or business owner is willing to accommodate its employees' requests that's fine--if they don't like the hassle and instead opt to fire, I suppose that's their right. The important thing is that each and every customer receives equal treatment, service and goods, irregardless of what's going on in the store or restaurant's back room.

I know I'm not comfortable with the argument that customers who've been turned away can always go somewhere else. Well into the the 20th century factory owners argued along those same lines--there was no need to pay a minimum wage, adhere to safety regulations, or refrain from hiring young children because, after all, "no one is being forced to work here."

Yes, a store or restaurant owner is expected to give up some of his or her rights--not for the sake of being in business, but because the welfare of others, the employees and customers, is involved. As a cafe owner you can work day and night, refuse to pay yourself a penny in salary, and eat the moldering leftovers so they don't go to waste--your business. Demand that your employees and/or customers do the same on the grounds that they're not being forced to work for you or to eat at your lunch counter--their business.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Here's the misunderstanding, the Christian bakeries and t shirt shops etc...are not refusing to sell to others. They're refusing to provide the specific service that goes against their beliefs, ie "gay" wedding cakes, "gay" pride t shirts.


Good grief, why do you assume that a cake a gay wedding looks different from any other? What IS a "gay" cake? Something frosted in rainbow colors with a dildo sticking out of the top?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> You raise lots of interesting questions, Nebraska. Hmmm....
> 
> You ask if I'm saying its OK for individuals to refuse to do things but not companies...Not exactly. I suppose I feel that companies are required to provide service for customers irregardless of race, religion, creed (and now) sexual orientation, but the mechanics of providing that service are up to them. Lots of businesses are open seven days a week but willing to accommodate the Christian employee who needs Sunday off, or the Jewish person who doesn't want on Saturday. Years ago I worked for a research company that assembled panels of folks to try out new products and give their opinions, and we recruiters always had the option of opting out of studies involving booze or cigarettes. If a manager or business owner is willing to accommodate its employees' requests that's fine--if they don't like the hassle and instead opt to fire, I suppose that's their right. The important thing is that each and every customer receives equal treatment, service and goods, irregardless of what's going on in the store or restaurant's back room.
> 
> ...


So...if a baker decides that they want to sell traditional wedding cakes, with a man and a woman on top, anyone can buy one. But if someone wants to buy one with two men or two women, does that baker have to comply?

And if companies are required to provide equal service, should someone be allowed to insist that halel (Muslim) or kosher (Jewish) butchers process pigs?

IMO, if halel or kosher butchers want to refuse to process pigs they should be allowed to because it's against their religious beliefs. However, if anyone of any belief wants to buy their lamb, beef or chicken, they should not be allowed to refuse to sell to them. The same goes for Christian bakers or t shirt makers or anything else.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Good grief, why do you assume that a cake a gay wedding looks different from any other? What IS a "gay" cake? Something frosted in rainbow colors with a dildo sticking out of the top?


I think I've already answered this but I'll clarify. A "gay" wedding cake would have a topper with two men or two women. Or two men's names or two women's names. If someone wants to order a regular wedding cake with no indication of it being for a "gay" wedding, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, because they'd just go order a cake and the baker wouldn't know the difference. The problem occurs when someone is asked to support something that goes against their beliefs.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So...if a baker decides that they want to sell traditional wedding cakes, with a man and a woman on top, anyone can buy one. But if someone wants to buy one with two men or two women, does that baker have to comply?
> 
> And if companies are required to provide equal service, should someone be allowed to insist that halel (Muslim) or kosher (Jewish) butchers process pigs?
> 
> IMO, if halel or kosher butchers want to refuse to process pigs they should be allowed to because it's against their religious beliefs. However, if anyone of any belief wants to buy their lamb, beef or chicken, they should not be allowed to refuse to sell to them.


I agree with you 100% here, Nebraska



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The same goes for Christian bakers or t shirt makers or anything else.


But not so here. I suppose items like wedding cakes, flowers, and pictures are the hot buttons because 1) they're an intrinsic part of gay weddings, something some of those Hoosier bakers find an abomination, and 2) unlike T-shirts off a rack, they require the baker's or florist's active participation to produce. I suppose they feel like they'd be acting as agents of their own destruction by doing so, since they do seem to feel that all gays are damned.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> If they want a wedding cake, just buy a wedding cake without the topper, and add your own later. Then, the baker is just baking a cake, not providing support for something they don't believe in. Refusing to provide support for something you think is wrong, is not hate. It's standing up for what you believe.


It's discrimination.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> It's discrimination.


Nope, because anyone can buy the type of cakes, the baker chooses to make. They just can't force him to make it different.

Did you see the video link I posted, where the gay baker refused to make the cake that said "gay marriage is wrong"? He said he'd sell it and give them extra icing to write what they want, but he wouldn't write it. That's the way it should be. No one should be forced to do something that they view as wrong.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> But not so here. I suppose items like wedding cakes, flowers, and pictures are the hot buttons because 1) they're an intrinsic part of gay weddings, something some of those Hoosier bakers find an abomination, and 2) unlike T-shirts off a rack, they require the baker's or florist's active participation to produce. I suppose they feel like they'd be acting as agents of their own destruction by doing so, since they do seem to feel that all gays are damned.


This seems kind of hypocritical. Muslims and Jews retain their religious rights but Christians don't? What if gays wanted a Jewish or Muslim caterer to serve pork at their wedding reception? Does that change things? Why are Christians singled out, when people of all reliligions have their beliefs and rules for living? Live and let live!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Nope, because anyone can buy the type of cakes, the baker chooses to make. They just can't force him to make it different.
> 
> Did you see the video link I posted, where the gay baker refused to make the cake that said "gay marriage is wrong"? He said he'd sell it and give them extra icing to write what they want, but he wouldn't write it. That's the way it should be. No one should be forced to do something that they view as wrong.


I just came online and haven't been through all the posts.
To me, nobody's religious freedom is being compromised. They aren't supporting a gay lifestyle by making a cake for a gay marriage, they're doing business. What if the owner of a business thinks black people are Devils. Does that mean he doesnt have to do business with black people?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Here's something I don't understand. IF someone saw your wedding as an abomination, WHY would you want them involved on any level? Would your cake be the best it could be? Or your flowers? If you're forcing someone to participate? And what of your wedding photos? If you're forcing a bigot to take your precious photos, and he can't stand to look at you, what are you going to get? Wouldn't it make sense to hire someone who sees your special day, as a celebration? What's the point in forcing people to go against their beliefs? What is the real reason behind all of this?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> This seems kind of hypocritical. Muslims and Jews retain their religious rights but Christians don't? What if gays wanted a Jewish or Muslim caterer to serve pork at their wedding reception?


I'm not sure that's really the issue here, Nebraska. As you yourself pointed out a few posts back, the same goods should be available to all customers. Caterers and restaurant certainly have the freedom to choose whatever they wish to sell--I can't walk into a sandwich shop and reasonably expect them to whip me up a slice of pizza, after all. But it would be discriminatory for those hypothetical Muslim and Jewish caters to refuse my business because they felt that it was against their religion to provide food for a Christian wedding.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> I just came online and haven't been through all the posts.
> To me, nobody's religious freedom is being compromised. They aren't supporting a gay lifestyle by making a cake for a gay marriage, they're doing business. What if the owner of a business thinks black people are Devils. Does that mean he doesnt have to do business with black people?


So true, Cookie. Lest we forget, religion was often used to justify segregation. Former Mississippi governor/US Senator Theodore Bilbo had this to say (it makes my blood run cold):

[p]urity of race is a gift of God . . . . And God, in his infinite wisdom, has so ordained it that when man destroys his racial purity, it can never be redeemed. Allowing the blood of the races [to] mix, according to Bilbo, was a direct attack on the Divine plan of God. There is every reason to believe that miscengenation and amalgamation are sins of man in direct defiance to the will of God.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> I just came online and haven't been through all the posts.
> To me, nobody's religious freedom is being compromised. They aren't supporting a gay lifestyle by making a cake for a gay marriage, they're doing business. What if the owner of a business thinks black people are Devils. Does that mean he doesnt have to do business with black people?


That's not a fair comparison. We're not talking about refusing to sell to a particular people. We're talking about forcing people to sell something that goes against their religious beliefs, whether that means forcing a halel (muslim) butcher or a kosher (Jewish) butcher to process pork or whether that means forcing a Christian to bake a "gay" wedding cake. IMO, anyone should be allowed to buy whatever meat the butcher chooses to process, just as anyone be allowed to purchase whatever kind of cake a baker chooses to make. But neither should be forced to make something that goes against their beliefs.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm not sure that's really the issue here, Nebraska. As you yourself pointed out a few posts back, the same goods should be available to all customers. Caterers and restaurant certainly have the freedom to choose whatever they wish to sell--I can't walk into a sandwich shop and reasonably expect them to whip me up a slice of pizza, after all. But it would be discriminatory for those hypothetical Muslim and Jewish caters to refuse my business because they felt that it was against their religion to provide food for a Christian wedding.


But I'm saying the same thing. If a gay couple wants to buy the traditional cakes that a baker makes, they should be allowed. But if they want that cake to indicate that it is honoring something the baker believes is wrong, they shouldn't be allowed to force the baker to make that cake. Anymore than they could force the caterer to serve something different that offends him.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> So true, Cookie. Lest we forget, religion was often used to justify segregation. Former Mississippi governor/US Senator Theodore Bilbo had this to say (it makes my blood run cold):
> 
> [p]urity of race is a gift of God . . . . And God, in his infinite wisdom, has so ordained it that when man destroys his racial purity, it can never be redeemed. Allowing the blood of the races [to] mix, according to Bilbo, was a direct attack on the Divine plan of God. There is every reason to believe that miscengenation and amalgamation are sins of man in direct defiance to the will of God.


I could not disagree with this man more than I do. I hate his opinion! BUT, if he wants to believe that, and HE wants to marry someone of his race to keep his race pure, he's entitled. The problem lies with those who think we should pass laws, requiring others to do as they believe. I believe in individual religious rights. Each person must answer to their GOD or higher power or whatever.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I'm going to bed. Good night everyone. Talk to you tomorrow.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> That's not a fair comparison. We're not talking about refusing to sell to a particular people. We're talking about forcing people to sell something that goes against their religious beliefs, whether that means forcing a halel (muslim) butcher or a kosher (Jewish) butcher to process pork or whether that means forcing a Christian to bake a "gay" wedding cake. IMO, anyone should be allowed to buy whatever meat the butcher chooses to process, just as anyone be allowed to purchase whatever kind of cake a baker chooses to make. But neither should be forced to make something that goes against their beliefs.


My my, we're both starting to go around in circles, aren't we? 

Again, I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "gay" cake. To a feverishly anti-gay marriage baker, would simply leaving the topper off really make it OK in their eyes? I suppose only they can answer that, but I kind of think, No. Instructing gay couples to score the cake by refusing to tell the baker what it's for seems insulting--kind of like (in the days of segregation) telling an African-American to simply pull a sack over their head so they could eat at the local lunch counter.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

double post


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm going to bed. Good night everyone. Talk to you tomorrow.


Good night, Nebraska. Thanks for the interesting discussion. We still don't agree, but I really did enjoy it.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Here's something I don't understand. IF someone saw your wedding as an abomination, WHY would you want them involved on any level? Would your cake be the best it could be? Or your flowers? If you're forcing someone to participate? And what of your wedding photos? If you're forcing a bigot to take your precious photos, and he can't stand to look at you, what are you going to get? Wouldn't it make sense to hire someone who sees your special day, as a celebration? What's the point in forcing people to go against their beliefs? What is the real reason behind all of this?


I'm not exactly sure, but then the folks in the 50s and 60s who fought to desegregate lunch counters and restaurants probably asked themselves these same questions--particularly while the food was being dumped on their heads.

*Why am I doing this?*

*What's the point?*

*Do I even want to give my business to this SOB pouring hot soup down my neck?*

And so on.

Still, they persisted and eventually won, and there's no doubt that American society is all the better for it. Prejudice is harmful, both to the recipient and the one dishing it out.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Have you been talking to your leader? I sense the same style.



joeysomma said:


> The service in question is making a cake for a gay marriage celebration. Not in making a cake for a person who is in the gay lifestyle.
> 
> Or providing flowers for a gay wedding. Not in selling flowers to a person in the gay lifestyle.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Do tell, joey what do we need to know about the Gay lifestyle? Why would we need to know any more about their lifestyle than we know about anyone else's? What's the difference and who are you to judge?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> How can you possibly know where other religious extremists are prepared to draw their loopy lines in the sand? To you, expressing your religious freedom means refusing gays marriage-related services--cakes, flowers, photographs. Bad enough. But others in the anti-LGBT crowd are prepared to take it a whole lot farther. We know this. Back in 2014, Kansas' Bill 2203 would have granted every employee--public and private--the right to refuse service to members of the gay community. Thankfully, the bill didn't pass--else gay drivers could have been turned away at the DMV, refused medical attention in clinics and hospitals, and had their tax returns languishing in the bowels of the IRS because this agent or that refused, on religious grounds, to process them.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: So good to hear your voice again.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I say there is a separation between your opinions and your profession. A professional person in the workplace does the job they were hired to do. If they don't perform those duties, they don't have the job. (Almost sounds Republican.)



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Your welcome.
> But are you saying that its OK for individuals to refuse to do things that are against their beliefs, but not companies? What about the individuals who have put everything they have, into opening a bakery? Are they to give up their right to follow their religious beliefs? Or what about the small pharmacy in which the pharmacist is the owner? Must he give up his rights or face religious persecution? There is nowhere to draw the line. If anyone can be forced to act against their beliefs, then everyone can be forced to do the same.
> 
> If a gay person wants a wedding cake, let them find someone willing to bake it. If someone wants their pig butchered, let them find a butcher who's willing. If a trucking company needs someone to deliver alcohol, let them hire someone who will do that. If someone wants to sell something, let them decide what they want to sell. The thing that made America exceptional, was her Constitution. Where will we be, when they've eroded our rights? If we're not willing to stand up for the rights of others, no one will be there to stand up for ours.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Or if the pharmacy finds themself with an employee who doesn't do the job they were hired to do, the employee is toast.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Refusing to do a task yourself is NOT imposing your beliefs upon others. It's standing up for what you believe. If a pharmacy doesn't sell birth control pills, just go to one that does. It's called free will. If there is a demand for something, someone will sell it. If you owned a book store, could I insist that you carry the particular bible or religious books that I wanted? Could the Jews do the same? Or the muslims? No! It's YOUR store. YOU get to decide what books to carry. What do you think will happen when the government can dictate what we sell, or what we do? Where will it stop? You don't want others deciding for you, do you?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Customers are not asking you to send a gift. They're asking telling you they want to buy a cake. If you refuse customers, your business will not survive.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I understand what you're saying. The Christian bakeries are not refusing to sell to "gay" people. They're refusing to bake a cake that represents something that they believe is wrong. You wanna buy a regular cake, cookies or donuts? Go ahead. But if you want someone to bake you a cake that celebrates "gay" weddings? Find someone who believes in "gay" weddings.
> 
> IMO, there is no such thing as "gay" marriage. The very definition of marriage, is a union between one man and one woman. If "gay" people want a union of their own, let them call it something else. But it isn't a marriage. But then, they've been able to change the meanings of words in the past, so they think they can do it again. Gay??? Really? What will they come up with next?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, any branch of government or entities that depend upon government funding, should not be allowed to refuse service to anyone. The government belongs to all of us. And they should only hire people who are willing and able to serve everyone equally. But private business, owned by individuals with rights and freedoms should be allowed to make what they want to make, and sell whatever they want to sell.


I'd like to see a study determining whether businesses thrive or not under these circumstances. My common sense says you don't offend customers and survive.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> I just came online and haven't been through all the posts.
> To me, nobody's religious freedom is being compromised. They aren't supporting a gay lifestyle by making a cake for a gay marriage, they're doing business. What if the owner of a business thinks black people are Devils. Does that mean he doesnt have to do business with black people?


Interesting question showing what happens when you follow the result of sloppy thinking.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

To me, these people are not 'participating' in a wedding. They're asked to sell a cake.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Here's something I don't understand. IF someone saw your wedding as an abomination, WHY would you want them involved on any level? Would your cake be the best it could be? Or your flowers? If you're forcing someone to participate? And what of your wedding photos? If you're forcing a bigot to take your precious photos, and he can't stand to look at you, what are you going to get? Wouldn't it make sense to hire someone who sees your special day, as a celebration? What's the point in forcing people to go against their beliefs? What is the real reason behind all of this?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Methinks the Rev protests too much. Time for DNA testing to see which tree his relations swung from. (Grammar intended for emphasis.)



susanmos2000 said:


> So true, Cookie. Lest we forget, religion was often used to justify segregation. Former Mississippi governor/US Senator Theodore Bilbo had this to say (it makes my blood run cold):
> 
> [p]urity of race is a gift of God . . . . And God, in his infinite wisdom, has so ordained it that when man destroys his racial purity, it can never be redeemed. Allowing the blood of the races [to] mix, according to Bilbo, was a direct attack on the Divine plan of God. There is every reason to believe that miscengenation and amalgamation are sins of man in direct defiance to the will of God.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's not something 'wrong.' You're not required to judge. It's something you don't like.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> But I'm saying the same thing. If a gay couple wants to buy the traditional cakes that a baker makes, they should be allowed. But if they want that cake to indicate that it is honoring something the baker believes is wrong, they shouldn't be allowed to force the baker to make that cake. Anymore than they could force the caterer to serve something different that offends him.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I say there is a separation between your opinions and your profession. A professional person in the workplace does the job they were hired to do. If they don't perform those duties, they don't have the job. (Almost sounds Republican.)


Oooh. It does sound conservative. :XD:

I agree with what you've said, but what if they've not been "hired" for the job? What if it's a one man\woman business? Are they allowed to make and sell what they want to make and sell, or should someone be allowed to dictate to them?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Or if the pharmacy finds themself with an employee who doesn't do the job they were hired to do, the employee is toast.


I'm wondering why a pharmacy would be allowed to do this while companies who hire muslims are required to provide a place to pray (up to five times a day) and are required to reassign people who won't ring up pork. Why does society demand that one group be given religious favor when another is being forced to compromise their beliefs?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Customers are not asking you to send a gift. They're asking telling you they want to buy a cake. If you refuse customers, your business will not survive.


Are we talking about refusing customers? Or are we talking about providing a service that is against one's beliefs? Should people be required to support something that is wrong, according to their religious beliefs?

I think it's easy for an of us to postulate from a position of not being involved. But I wonder how any of us would feel, if the government started demanding that we do something, that is against our own beliefs. I think it's a very slippery slope. While one party might pass laws that we heartily agree with, what can happen when the other party takes over and passes laws that we find abhorrent? I think that neither party should pass laws that restrict or limit our religious freedom. I think that things change through social pressure. We can't and shouldn't be trying to legislate everything. That will bring about the death of our freedoms.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oooh. It does sound conservative. :XD:
> 
> I agree with what you've said, but what if they've not been "hired" for the job? What if it's a one man\woman business? Are they allowed to make and sell what they want to make and sell, or should someone be allowed to dictate to them?


Now you've found the sticky wicket. A one man/woman shop to act on their choices vs discrimination of a customer. I sense we're at agree to disagree.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I'd like to see a study determining whether businesses thrive or not under these circumstances. My common sense says you don't offend customers and survive.


That may be absolutely true. Some business owners may find themselves in a position of compromising or closing down. But that's true capitalism. If you won't provide what the customer wants, you won't stay in business. Society can bring about change, without legislation.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Are we talking about refusing customers? Or are we talking about providing a service that is against one's beliefs? Should people be required to support something that is wrong, according to their religious beliefs?
> 
> I think it's easy for an of us to postulate from a position of not being involved. But I wonder how any of us would feel, if the government started demanding that we do something, that is against our own beliefs. I think it's a very slippery slope. While one party might pass laws that we heartily agree with, what can happen when the other party takes over and passes laws that we find abhorrent? I think that neither party should pass laws that restrict or limit our religious freedom. I think that things change through social pressure. We can't and shouldn't be trying to legislate everything. That will bring about the death of our freedoms.


I like that. "We can't and shouldn't try to legislate everything." That is not only the death of freedom. How about the death of reason?

After all shouldn't our lawmakers be focusing on solutions to real dilemma rather than bills and laws to provide a 15 minute of fame for the lawmaker?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> To me, these people are not 'participating' in a wedding. They're asked to sell a cake.


And you're entitled to think that. But what of those who think differently?

Here's the thing. I don't necessarily think the way these people think. IMO, I could bake their cake without feeling that I had contributed to their "so called sin". It actually sounds a little nutty to me. BUT, I think that if we don't fight for the religious freedoms of others (even those with whom we disagree), then no one will be left to fight for ours. I think that our Constitutional rights are being chipped away, a little bit at a time. I also think that issues like this, that seem perfectly reasonable, are being used to chip away at it. If all of us don't fight to protect the rights of others, there won't be any left for us and our children. That's why I'll defend the rights of Muslims, Jews and Christians, even on issues that I don't necessarily agree with.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Isn't your position changing a bit? Perhaps I'm confused.

I don't see your Constitutional rights being attacked, but rather conservatives creating conflict that doesn't need to exist.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And you're entitled to think that. But what of those who think differently?
> 
> Here's the thing. I don't necessarily think the way these people think. IMO, I could bake their cake without feeling that I had contributed to their "so called sin". It actually sounds a little nutty to me. BUT, I think that if we don't fight for the religious freedoms of others (even those with whom we disagree), then no one will be left to fight for ours. I think that our Constitutional rights are being chipped away, a little bit at a time. I also think that issues like this, that seem perfectly reasonable, are being used to chip away at it. If all of us don't fight to protect the rights of others, there won't be any left for us and our children. That's why I'll defend the rights of Muslims, Jews and Christians, even on issues that I don't necessarily agree with.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> It's not something 'wrong.' You're not required to judge. It's something you don't like.


Here's what I agree with:
In one of the links I shared, a Christian called 13 "gay" bakeries. He told them they were having a celebration of traditional marriage, and he wanted a cake that said, "gay marriage is wrong". Most of the people at the "gay" bakeries hung up on him or swore at him but ONE had the answer I liked. He said, I will bake the cake and give you the icing to write the words, but I will not write them. I agree with him. He didn't refuse to sell them a cake, but he refused to do something that he didn't believe in. No one should be forced to do something, not even gays. If we require one group to go against their beliefs, then we would have to require all groups to do the same. Where do you draw the line?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Now you've found the sticky wicket. A one man/woman shop to act on their choices vs discrimination of a customer. I sense we're at agree to disagree.


But, how is it discrimination if the person is willing to sell the same cake to anyone? Anyone who wants a traditional wedding cake with a bride and a groom on top, is free to buy one. But if you want a cake with a groom and a groom, you shouldn't force someone to make one. Find someone else who makes cakes with a groom and a groom on top.

If you walk into a small pharmacist owned pharmacy and he\she says they don't sell birth control, due to personal beliefs? Go to another pharmacy. He's willing to sell you anything he has but he doesnt carry birth control. He\she shouldn't be required to sell something he believes is bad.

That's not discrimination. That's personal religious belief.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'd like to see a study determining whether businesses thrive or not under these circumstances. My common sense says you don't offend customers and survive.


Forget about the health of the business--_people_ do badly when they're isolated by bigotry and hate. In the days of segregation white children derived no benefit whatsoever by growing up apart from black children. Nebraska has commented that people shouldn't be forced to do things that go against their religion, but I disagree. Desegregation schools went against many white Southerners' religious beliefs had to be enacted literally at bayonet point, but would anyone in 21st century American argue that isn't wasn't for the common good?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm wondering why a pharmacy would be allowed to do this while companies who hire muslims are required to provide a place to pray (up to five times a day) and are required to reassign people who won't ring up pork. Why does society demand that one group be given religious favor when another is being forced to compromise their beliefs?


Maybe it has to do with whether the employees' requests can be reasonably accommodated. A grocery (for example) generally has many cashiers and many positions and it's probably not difficult to excuse or reassign the employee who objects to ringing up beef, pork, or booze. But a drugstore usually has but one pharmacist, and the store has a problem is that guy or gal demands five prayer breaks a day or sifts through the prescription deciding which are or are not in accordance with his or her religious beliefs. Legally I'm not sure how far an employer is required to go to accommodate his/her employees' religious beliefs, but there have to be limits--a Muslim fashion model who insists on wearing a burqua isn't exactly an asset to the company.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Sorry, Ladies, but I think this whole argument is absurd. The Indiana legislature proposed and passed the legislation in question for one reason and one reason only. To pander to the Christian right-wing fundamentalists, thereby proving how pro-Christian they are. If there was no howling from the fundies, this would not even be an issue. 

The whole idea of the fantasy "war on Christians" is ridiculous and intended to get the extremists in a snit and to divert the political conversation away from substantive issues and the OTHER things that are happening in legislatures across the country that promote the REAL agenda of big corporations. Who is talking about the trend toward state sovereignty over federal government and how states are chipping away at the "united" part of the United States?

While we bicker over flippin' wedding cakes, our country is being taken over by the extreme fringes of religion AND politics. 

By the way, for anyone who thinks allowing gay marriage is "redefining" marriage, please refer to your bible. Marriage has ALREADY been redefined, and certainly not along the lines of your bible, where polygamy was practiced, where a woman was forced into marrying her brother-in-law if she was widowed, where slaves could be forced to marry against their will. The bible DOES NOT reflect our moral or cultural values except in the imagination of fundamentalists.

There will be unintended consequences of laws to protect religious freedom. Already, a man in Utah refused to testify against another church member in a child sex abuse case due to his "sincerely held" religious beliefs, citing the Hobby Lobby decision. And he prevailed. 

Pandora's Box.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Isn't your position changing a bit? Perhaps I'm confused.
> 
> I don't see your Constitutional rights being attacked, but rather conservatives creating conflict that doesn't need to exist.


My position hadn't changed at all. I don't believe anyone should be forced to do anything that is against their religious beliefs. If we go down the avenue of limiting the rights of one group, we'd have to limit them for all. And where does it stop? I've given some comparisons for people to think about, but everyone only wants to focus on how freedom discriminates against gays. Before we approve of legislation limiting people's rights, we should think about how it would effect everyone, not just Christians. Unless, we want laws that specifically target Christians? Do we?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> My position hadn't changed at all. I don't believe anyone should be forced to do anything that is against their religious beliefs. If we go down the avenue of limiting the rights of one group, we'd have to limit them for all. And where does it stop? I've given some comparisons for people to think about, but everyone only wants to focus on how freedom discriminates against gays. Before we approve of legislation limiting people's rights, we should think about how it would effect everyone, not just Christians. Unless, we want laws that specifically target Christians? Do we?


No, of course not. But that's just the point...Indiana's bill is so sweepingly worded that any business owner of any faith can point to it to justify refusing service to potential customers. We keep using the example of gays being denied wedding cakes and flowers, but what about a Muslim pharmacist/pharmacy owner who refuses to do business with the infidels. Would you find that OK?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Sorry, Ladies, but I think this whole argument is absurd. The Indiana legislature proposed and passed the legislation in question for one reason and one reason only. To pander to the Christian right-wing fundamentalists, thereby proving how pro-Christian they are. If there was no howling from the fundies, this would not even be an issue.
> 
> The whole idea of the fantasy "war on Christians" is ridiculous and intended to get the extremists in a snit and to divert the political conversation away from substantive issues and the OTHER things that are happening in legislatures across the country that promote the REAL agenda of big corporations. Who is talking about the trend toward state sovereignty over federal government and how states are chipping away at the "united" part of the United States?
> 
> ...


I agree that the Indiana legislation is wrong and that it panders to Christians. We shouldn't have to write legislation to define or alter what the Constitution already says. But when one side tries to enforce their beliefs, the other side is going to react. Where does it end? Does it end with whatever party is in power? That's the Pandora's box.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I could not disagree with this man more than I do. I hate his opinion! BUT, if he wants to believe that, and HE wants to marry someone of his race to keep his race pure, he's entitled. The problem lies with those who think we should pass laws, requiring others to do as they believe.  I believe in individual religious rights. Each person must answer to their GOD or higher power or whatever.


 :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> No, of course not. But that's just the point...Indiana's bill is so sweepingly worded that any business owner of any faith can point to it to justify refusing service to potential customers. We keep using the example of gays being denied wedding cakes and flowers, but what about a Muslim pharmacist/pharmacy owner who refuses to do business with the infidels. Would you find that OK?


I would not find that OK. We've laws against discrimination already. But do we want to start dictating what people sell? If Christians have to provide gay themed cakes or t shirts, do halel and kosher butchers have to provide pork? Who gets to decide where the line is drawn?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I would not find that OK. We've laws against discrimination already. But do we want to start dictating what people sell? If Christians have to provide gay themed cakes or t shirts, do halel and kosher butchers have to provide pork?


Well, but we've already hashed that out. Business owners have the right to decide what they'll sell, but the goods must be available to all customers. A Hoosier baker isn't selling "gay" cakes--they're just wedding cakes and should be available to all customers.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> They will gladly sell a "cake." They will not decorate it.


And the anti-gay florists? Do they hand over a bunch of empty stems and tell their gay customers to stick on the flowers and petals themselves?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Individual flowers, not 2 bridal bouquets.


No dice. There's no such thing as just "a little" discrimination. Whites used to argue that Southern restaurants weren't really segregated as blacks were usually allowed to purchase food--they just had to eat standing up or go to the takeout window. It's still discriminatory.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Interesting point.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Here's what I agree with:
> In one of the links I shared, a Christian called 13 "gay" bakeries. He told them they were having a celebration of traditional marriage, and he wanted a cake that said, "gay marriage is wrong". Most of the people at the "gay" bakeries hung up on him or swore at him but ONE had the answer I liked. He said, I will bake the cake and give you the icing to write the words, but I will not write them. I agree with him. He didn't refuse to sell them a cake, but he refused to do something that he didn't believe in. No one should be forced to do something, not even gays. If we require one group to go against their beliefs, then we would have to require all groups to do the same. Where do you draw the line?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Agree to disagree. In a professional transaction, no one is asking about your beliefs. Some things are private. Some things are public.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> But, how is it discrimination if the person is willing to sell the same cake to anyone? Anyone who wants a traditional wedding cake with a bride and a groom on top, is free to buy one. But if you want a cake with a groom and a groom, you shouldn't force someone to make one. Find someone else who makes cakes with a groom and a groom on top.
> 
> If you walk into a small pharmacist owned pharmacy and he\she says they don't sell birth control, due to personal beliefs? Go to another pharmacy. He's willing to sell you anything he has but he doesnt carry birth control. He\she shouldn't be required to sell something he believes is bad.
> 
> That's not discrimination. That's personal religious belief.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Forget about the health of the business--_people_ do badly when they're isolated by bigotry and hate. In the days of segregation white children derived no benefit whatsoever by growing up apart from black children. Nebraska has commented that people shouldn't be forced to do things that go against their religion, but I disagree. Desegregation schools went against many white Southerners' religious beliefs had to be enacted literally at bayonet point, but would anyone in 21st century American argue that isn't wasn't for the common good?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: That's the way I see it too.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Sorry, Ladies, but I think this whole argument is absurd. The Indiana legislature proposed and passed the legislation in question for one reason and one reason only. To pander to the Christian right-wing fundamentalists, thereby proving how pro-Christian they are. If there was no howling from the fundies, this would not even be an issue.
> 
> The whole idea of the fantasy "war on Christians" is ridiculous and intended to get the extremists in a snit and to divert the political conversation away from substantive issues and the OTHER things that are happening in legislatures across the country that promote the REAL agenda of big corporations. Who is talking about the trend toward state sovereignty over federal government and how states are chipping away at the "united" part of the United States?
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> And the anti-gay florists? Do they hand over a bunch of empty stems and tell their gay customers to stick on the flowers and petals themselves?


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I would not find that OK. We've laws against discrimination already. But do we want to start dictating what people sell? If Christians have to provide gay themed cakes or t shirts, do halel and kosher butchers have to provide pork? Who gets to decide where the line is drawn?


There's a difference, at least where kosher butchers are concerned. Unwrapped pork in the store will make all the meat unkosher, or at least give that appearance, and he'd lose most of his customers. That would hardly happen with cakes or t-shirts. There are supermarkets owned by Jews that sell pork, which is fine as long as it's wrapped.

In fact, my mil once told me that where she grew up in Czechoslovakia, almost every Jewish kitchen had a shelf over the stove where the gentiles would hang their meat for smoking, as long as the kosher food was protected from drips.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Here's what I agree with:
> In one of the links I shared, a Christian called 13 "gay" bakeries. He told them they were having a celebration of traditional marriage, and he wanted a cake that said, "gay marriage is wrong". Most of the people at the "gay" bakeries hung up on him or swore at him but ONE had the answer I liked. He said, I will bake the cake and give you the icing to write the words, but I will not write them. I agree with him. He didn't refuse to sell them a cake, but he refused to do something that he didn't believe in. No one should be forced to do something, not even gays. If we require one group to go against their beliefs, then we would have to require all groups to do the same. Where do you draw the line?


Do you see no difference between asking for a cake to celebrate a wedding, regardless of who's getting married, and asking for a cake that says "Some people are bad"?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

It's rare for me to agree with Lindsay Graham, but I think his remarks here make sense consistent with the facts.

http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4532403/0323-graham-israel-floor-remarks


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

A local magazine's cover showed two women on the cover - they were marrying each other and then the topic was gay marriage. I found one reader's response to be very interesting. He is a teacher and noted that the students he deals with are used to diversity among their friends. They don't make the distinction of black, Indian, gay, etc. He stated that in twenty years, the prevailing climate will change the gay marriage will be accepted and integrated because of the new generation.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Do you see no difference between asking for a cake to celebrate a wedding, regardless of who's getting married, and asking for a cake that says "Some people are bad"?


It doesn't matter what I think (I'd just make the cake). What matters is that every individual gets to follow what they believe. What's important to you or to I, may not seem important to others (like having unwrapped pork in a kosher deli). What others think, may not be important to us. What's important is that everyone is free to act in accordance with their own beliefs. That's what freedom of religion is. If others are allowed to decide for us, that is not freedom.

And the cake didn't say that anyone was bad. It said that gay marriage was wrong. Forcing anyone to act against their beliefs is wrong, whether it's a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim or a gay person. If you don't like what they have to sell, just go somewhere else.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It's rare for me to agree with Lindsay Graham, but I think his remarks here make sense consistent with the facts.
> 
> http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4532403/0323-graham-israel-floor-remarks


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Sorry, Ladies, but I think this whole argument is absurd. The Indiana legislature proposed and passed the legislation in question for one reason and one reason only. To pander to the Christian right-wing fundamentalists, thereby proving how pro-Christian they are. If there was no howling from the fundies, this would not even be an issue.
> 
> The whole idea of the fantasy "war on Christians" is ridiculous and intended to get the extremists in a snit and to divert the political conversation away from substantive issues and the OTHER things that are happening in legislatures across the country that promote the REAL agenda of big corporations. Who is talking about the trend toward state sovereignty over federal government and how states are chipping away at the "united" part of the United States?
> 
> ...


DGreen
Thank you. When people have no reasonable answer to anything they reach for the Bible and we know all too well how messed up that book's writing is. Religion is the Cane to lean on for those who are too weak to stand on their own two feet. I want to make is very clear that I am not addressing those who belief and are very fine people. Unfortunately their numbers are shrinking drastically.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It doesn't matter what I think (I'd just make the cake). What matters is that every individual gets to follow what they believe. What's important to you or to I, may not seem important to others (like having unwrapped pork in a kosher deli). What others think, may not be important to us. What's important is that everyone is free to act in accordance with their own beliefs. That's what freedom of religion is. If others are allowed to decide for us, that is not freedom.
> 
> And the cake didn't say that anyone was bad. It said that gay marriage was wrong. Forcing anyone to act against their beliefs is wrong, whether it's a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim or a gay person. If you don't like what they have to sell, just go somewhere else.


"Gay marriage is wrong" implies that the people involved in it are bad people.

Truthfully, unless there's only one (decent) bakery in a town, I agree that bakers should be permitted to bake what they want and customers should be able to make whatever concessions are necessary. But your example of the Christian calling gay bakers and requesting a cake that says "GM is wrong" is hardly parallel to the usual problem.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> "Gay marriage is wrong" implies that the people involved in it are bad people.
> 
> Truthfully, unless there's only one (decent) bakery in a town, I agree that bakers should be permitted to bake what they want and customers should be able to make whatever concessions are necessary. But your example of the Christian calling gay bakers and requesting a cake that says "GM is wrong" is hardly parallel to the usual problem.


Is the converse also true? When people say that the Christians are wrong, are they implying that the Christians are bad? I don't think so.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The perfect quote for the bakers, florists, and photographers; who have been sued for refusing to sell their crafts for a gay wedding:
> 
> *In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.*
> 
> --Thomas Jefferson


There's nothing noble about the principles of bigotry and hate. Americans saw and heard plenty of posturing by the bigots during the days of segregation, but some fifty years later it's obvious that pelting black children with garbage and knocking them down with firehouses is reprehensible.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Great avatar Purl! Who's the beautiful child?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> They had the right to say no, so no big deal. Christians have the same right to say NO!


I agree; they do. I don't know why this situation is treated the same way as Woolworth counters no serving black people. It's far from the same.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Is the converse also true? When people say that the Christians are wrong, are they implying that the Christians are bad? I don't think so.


Where do people say Christians are wrong? They may say "Christians are wrong about the divinity of Jesus," but not simply "Christians are wrong."


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> There's nothing noble about the principles of bigotry and hate. Americans saw and heard plenty of posturing by the bigots during the days of segregation, but some fifty years later it's obvious that pelting black children with garbage and knocking them down with firehouses is reprehensible.


That's much, much worse than knocking them down with firehoses. :roll:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Maybe it has to do with whether the employees' requests can be reasonably accommodated. A grocery (for example) generally has many cashiers and many positions and it's probably not difficult to excuse or reassign the employee who objects to ringing up beef, pork, or booze. But a drugstore usually has but one pharmacist, and the store has a problem is that guy or gal demands five prayer breaks a day or sifts through the prescription deciding which are or are not in accordance with his or her religious beliefs. Legally I'm not sure how far an employer is required to go to accommodate his/her employees' religious beliefs, but there have to be limits--a Muslim fashion model who insists on wearing a burqua isn't exactly an asset to the company.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Great avatar Purl! Who's the beautiful child?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


>


And I thought you'd appreciate that. :lol:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Great avatar Purl! Who's the beautiful child?


It's a picture of my father and me when I was two or three. He loved spending time with his kids. And I thought he looked like Glenn Ford; they certainly had the same smile.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It's a picture of my father and me when I was two or three. He loved spending time with his kids. And I thought he looked like Glenn Ford; they certainly had the same smile.


Beautiful photo of you and your Dad, Purl.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You look like Shirley Temple with those curls and big smile.



Poor Purl said:


> It's a picture of my father and me when I was two or three. He loved spending time with his kids. And I thought he looked like Glenn Ford; they certainly had the same smile.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Beautiful photo of you and your Dad, Purl.


Thank you, Cheeky. It's the only one I've been able to find, and we had hundreds. I can't imagine where they disappeared to. Mice don't eat them, do they?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> You look like Shirley Temple with those curls and big smile.


But I didn't learn to tap dance until I was much older.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you, Cheeky. It's the only one I've been able to find, and we had hundreds. I can't imagine where they disappeared to. Mice don't eat them, do they?


Mice are pretty destructive. They tear up just about anything to make a nest. Do you have any photos of you tap dancing? That I would love to see.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Any recitals scheduled? I'll be there to cheer.




Poor Purl said:


> But I didn't learn to tap dance until I was much older.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Mice are pretty destructive. They tear up just about anything to make a nest. Do you have any photos of you tap dancing? That I would love to see.


I have no photos of me doing anything. This is not unusual around here. In the past month we have managed to lose all the hooks that all our pictures hung from (we had to take them down for the painting), as well as a bag of lactate ringer's solution that we need for our cat's infusions. This couldn't all be mice.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Any recitals scheduled? I'll be there to cheer.


I'll have my manager send you a schedule.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Any recitals scheduled? I'll be there to cheer.


I'll have my manager forward a schedule.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Burglars?



Poor Purl said:


> I have no photos of me doing anything. This is not unusual around here. In the past month we have managed to lose all the hooks that all our pictures hung from (we had to take them down for the painting), as well as a bag of lactate ringer's solution that we need for our cat's infusions. This couldn't all be mice.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Burglars?


Really dumb ones.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

"Netanyahu voices outrage that nuclear talks go on while Iran vows to destroy Israel"

This is a quote of a statement made yesterday by Mohammad Reza Naqd, Commander of the basij militia of Iran's Revolutionary Guard. "Israel's destruction is non negotiable.".

http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-laments-unconscionable-deal-with-murderous-iran/

Why are we negotiating with Iran when they have repeatedly and continuously vowed to destroy Israel??? Who's side are we on?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> "Netanyahu voices outrage that nuclear talks go on while Iran vows to destroy Israel"
> 
> This is a quote of a statement made yesterday by Mohammad Reza Naqd, Commander of the basij militia of Iran's Revolutionary Guard. "Israel's destruction is non negotiable.".
> 
> ...


A question that has concerned me lately. I just don't understand what our government thinks it's doing.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

"Iran blasts mock US carrier in war games"
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/26/world/iran-mock-carrier-destroyed/index.html

"Iranian aircraft buzzed Navy helicopter in Persian Gulf"
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/31/politics/iran-aircraft-buzzes-navy-helicopter-persian-gulf/index.html

"Iran's power rises, with or without deal"
There are all kinds of reasons we shouldn't be making deals with Iran. Here are a few.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/31/politics/irans-influence-nuclear-deal/index.html


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> A question that has concerned me lately. I just don't understand what our government thinks it's doing.


It troubles me greatly. I see it as a sign that the world is turning against Israel. If the US abandons Israel, who will be on her side? I know that you don't believe in the Bible but, it is written.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> A question that has concerned me lately. I just don't understand what our government thinks it's doing.


I agree that we need to support Israel, but they're supposed to be an ally not our master. It was a gross breach of protocol for Netanyahu to accept the GOP's invitation to speak before Congress, and now he's behaving as if he and he alone is in charge of the peace talks. If our country's relationship with Israel is becoming strained, it's because of Netanyahu's high-handed, imperious manner.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It troubles me greatly. I see it as a sign that the world is turning against Israel. If the US abandons Israel, who will be on her side? I know that you don't believe in the Bible but, it is written.


 :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

"Iran is smuggling precision missles to Hezbollah".
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/193502


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree that we need to support Israel, but they're supposed to be an ally not our master. It was a gross breach of protocol for Netanyahu to accept the GOP's invitation to speak before Congress, and now he's behaving as if he and he alone is in charge of the peace talks. If our country's relationship with Israel is becoming strained, it's because of Netanyahu's high-handed, imperious manner.


Would you breach protocol, if the lives of your people lay in the balance?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Would you breach protocol, if the lives of your people lay in the balance?


Not if the only result was to make matters worse. I don't see how Netanyahu's behavior is helping the situation a bit.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Not if the only result was to make matters worse. I don't see how Netanyahu's behavior is helping the situation a bit.


If you'd been trying to work with someone for six years and it finally becomes abundantly clear that they are not your friend, what have you got to lose? The lives of your family, friends and fellow countrymen are at stake. Would you then, take the risk? What would you expect Netanyahu to do?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> If you'd been trying to work with someone for six years and it finally becomes abundantly clear that they are not your friend, what have you got to lose? The lives of your family, friends and fellow countrymen are at stake. Would you then, take the risk? What would you expect Netanyahu to do?


It's an open secret that Obama and Netanyahu despise each other, but it's also 2015 and Obama's last term in office. When the new President (whoever s/he is) takes over it's a chance to start with a fresh slate, but it won't do Israel a bit of good if Americans are so disenchanted by Netanyahu's behavior that support for the country as a whole has fallen away.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> It's an open secret that Obama and Netanyahu despise each other, but it's also 2015 and Obama's last term in office. When the new President (whoever s/he is) takes over it's a chance to start with a fresh slate, but it won't do Israel a bit of good if Americans are so disenchanted by Netanyahu's behavior that support for the country as a whole has fallen away.


Why do you think that the Israelis will be safe for the next two years? January of 2017, could very well, be too late. Why do you also think that our people's support for Israel has fallen away. If this forum is a microcosm of the US, it would seem to me that yours is the minority view. Am I wrong?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree that we need to support Israel, but they're supposed to be an ally not our master. It was a gross breach of protocol for Netanyahu to accept the GOP's invitation to speak before Congress, and now he's behaving as if he and he alone is in charge of the peace talks. If our country's relationship with Israel is becoming strained, it's because of Netanyahu's high-handed, imperious manner.


 But is it a rational response to become friendly with Israel's enemy, a nation that takes the destruction of Israel to be non-negotiable? That's playground behavior, not the behavior of the leader of the free world. "He was mean to me, so I'll show him."

Besides, it's probable that Netanyahu accepted the GOP because Obama didn't send anyone significant to the meeting in Paris after the shootings. I think that was a serious breach of protocol.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> But is it a rational response to become friendly with Israel's enemy, a nation that takes the destruction of Israel to be non-negotiable? That's playground behavior, not the behavior of the leader of the free world. "He was mean to me, so I'll show him."
> 
> Besides, it's probable that Netanyahu accepted the GOP because Obama didn't send anyone significant to the meeting in Paris after the shootings. I think that was a serious breach of protocol.


I agree, except that I think Obama's decision to not send anyone to Paris, was a calculated move. His words and actions since being elected, have always been favorable toward muslims the world over. But when has he supported the Jews or Israel? When has he supported Christians?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> This country's failure to support Israel will lead to our destruction, Not only as a world power, but as a free country. We are losing our freedoms a little at a time. Most people do not see the loss of freedom, as they thy are to young to remember the freedoms we once had.


Our country is already lost. We are in the throes of death.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Why do you think that the Israelis will be safe for the next two years? January of 2017, could very well, be too late. Why do you also think that our people's support for Israel has fallen away. If this forum is a microcosm of the US, it would seem to me that yours is the minority view. Am I wrong?


Possibly, but I sense too that Americans' knee-jerk support of Israel has waned a bit. The situation in the Middle East is far more complicated than we ever suspected, and new alliances seem to be forming as we speak.

As for Israeli people, I think they're safer now than they've been for years. Despite the garbage rhetoric coming out of Tehran, they're far more preoccupied with beating back ISIS than stamping out Israel's existence. In fact, I think they'd cry into their beards if something happened to it. As long as Israel exists, the US will fight to defend it--boots on the ground, if necessary--and can be counted on to push back ISIS if it gets too close.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> But is it a rational response to become friendly with Israel's enemy, a nation that takes the destruction of Israel to be non-negotiable?


No, it isn't--but then it's pretty amazing that we are and have been friends with Saudi Arabia (whose nationals rammed airplanes into the Trade Towers) for years.

Maybe I'm more willing to overlook the hair-raising rhetoric coming out of Iran because we've been playing that same game with China for decades. Despite both countries issuing blood-curdling threats and threatening to stamp out each others' existence, we're excellent trade partners and (behind the scenes) the staunches of allies. They can be counted on to stay out of it when we get in some snarl, and we in turn pretty much give them free reign in Eastern Asia, not even interfering when we really should, like with the present situation in North Korea.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Possibly, but I sense too that Americans' knee-jerk support of Israel has waned a bit. The situation in the Middle East is far more complicated than we ever suspected, and new alliances seem to be forming as we speak.
> 
> As for Israeli people, I think they're safer now than they've been for years. Despite the garbage rhetoric coming out of Tehran, they're far more preoccupied with beating back ISIS than stamping out Israel's existence. In fact, I think they'd cry into their beards if something happened to it. As long as Israel exists, the US will fight to defend it--boots on the ground, if necessary--and can be counted on to push back ISIS if it gets too close.


I think we created the situations in the middle east. Our government created, trained and supported al qaida. We created, trained and supported isis. We overturned the governments of Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia, Eqypt and probably a lot more that I've forgotten to mention. We're in the process of trying to oust Assad, who was legally elected by the Syrian people. We're doing the same all over the world. I don't think there's ever been a more dangerous time for Israel, or for all of the people in the world.

I think we're on the cutting edge of world war III. I think Israel will be protected, but it won't be by the US. If you think the situation in the middle east is complicated, you should read about what's been happening with Russia and with China. We have never lived in such perilous times. Russia is threatening to use nuclear weapons against us and China is actively working to crash the dollar and bankrupt the US.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> But is it a rational response to become friendly with Israel's enemy, a nation that takes the destruction of Israel to be non-negotiable? [/i]
> 
> One only has to listen to the rhetoric coming out of North Korea to know that there's a huge difference between blood-curdling threats and the ability to carry them out. I can't count the number of times they've threatened to launch their (mostly imaginary) missiles and turn North America into a pitted moonscape. Do they have the capability? No--so we ignore it.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think we created the situations in the middle east. Our government created, trained and supported al qaida. We created, trained and supported isis. We overturned the governments of Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia, Eqypt and probably a lot more that I've forgotten to mention. We're in the process of trying to oust Assad, who was legally elected by the Syrian people. We're doing the same all over the world. I don't think there's ever been a more dangerous time for Israel, or for all of the people in the world.
> 
> I think we're on the cutting edge of world war III. I think Israel will be protected, but it won't be by the US. If you think the situation in the middle east is complicated, you should read about what's been happening with Russia and with China. We have never lived in such perilous times. Russia is threatening to use nuclear weapons against us and China is actively working to crash the dollar and bankrupt the US.


I wouldn't worry about that last item too much, Nebraska. If we go bankrupt then so do they--there'd be no one to buy to buy all their cheap export goods.

(But yes, I do agree that we bear much of the responsibility for the situation in the Middle East. It's a quagmire--stick one toe in and find yourself in up to your ears in no time.)


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> This country's failure to support Israel will lead to our destruction, Not only as a world power, but as a free country. We are losing our freedoms a little at a time. Most people do not see the loss of freedom, as they thy are to young to remember the freedoms we once had.


Doubtless you'd put the freedom to discriminate against gays on that list...

But never mind. I think it's foolish to equate here-and-now problems in the Middle East with Biblical prophesies and Armageddon. You may be prepared to simply fold your hands and wait for the Second Coming, but most of the world is not. The situation in the Middle East has changed (as indicated by the formation of ISIS), but all of us (and that includes Netanyahu) need to find a way to deal with it.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Our country is already lost. We are in the throes of death.


Really, Nebraska.

Forgive me for being blunt, but your DIL is expecting quads...do you honestly feel that your grandbabies have no future? Are you not even willing to try, for their sakes?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> No, it isn't--but then it's pretty amazing that we are and have been friends with Saudi Arabia (whose nationals rammed airplanes into the Trade Towers) for years.
> 
> Maybe I'm more willing to overlook the hair-raising rhetoric coming out of Iran because we've been playing that same game with China for decades. Despite both countries issuing blood-curdling threats and threatening to stamp out each others' existence, we're excellent trade partners and (behind the scenes) the staunches of allies. They can be counted on to stay out of it when we get in some snarl, and we in turn pretty much give them free reign in Eastern Asia, not even interfering when we really should, like the present situation in North Korea.


Money is the only reason we're friends with Saudi Arabia. They are the antithesis of what our country is or was. Our government sold our souls to the devil, when we made the petrodollar deal with them. We're supporting one of the cruelest regimes ever. All of it was to prop up the dollar, until the wealthy could rob everyone in the world of their wealth. The jig is up. It seems to me that everyone but the American citizens are coming to understand this.

China is no ally. They've used us just as we've used them, only they were smarter. They actually create stuff. We're consumers, we just consume stuff. They've taken all of those dollars they got from us, they built up their military and they bought gold. They've opened a new trade bank to rival the world bank. The US's allies are jumping off the sinking ship that is the dollar. China is backing their currency with something of value, gold. Its inflation proof! The federal reserve (which is NOT federal), has inflated the dollar to the degree that its lost over 90% of its value in the last 100 years. This hasn't only been felt by us, but by the peoples of the world. It's theft. They've been robbing us blind. When the dollar crashes (and it will), the wealthy walk away with all the money, and you and I end up holding the bag. Meaning $trillions in national debt and $quadrillions in derivatives. Any thoughts on how we'll repay it?

China is an ally with Russia, not the US. They are both working to replace the dollar and both have threatened to go to war with us. You really should read up on the news that the media didn't tell us. Things are dire.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Poor Purl said:
> 
> 
> > But is it a rational response to become friendly with Israel's enemy, a nation that takes the destruction of Israel to be non-negotiable? [/i]
> ...


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I wouldn't worry about that last item too much, Nebraska. If we go bankrupt then so do they--there'd be no one to buy to buy all their cheap export goods.
> 
> (But yes, I do agree that we bear much of the responsibility for the situation in the Middle East. It's a quagmire--stick one toe in and find yourself in up to your ears in no time.)


China won't go bankrupt. They've tons and tons and tons of gold. If the yuan becomes the international monetary unit, they will reap all of the benefits that we've reaped since the dollar held that place. People will be selling THEM cheap goods, to get yuan to buy oil and other necessities. China has already taken the number one spot, economically. We're circling the drain.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Really, Nebraska.
> 
> Forgive me for being blunt, but your DIL is expecting quads...do you honestly feel that your grandbabies have no future? Are you not even willing to try, for their sakes?


My grandbabies will have a very different future than I had. I'm doing everything I can to prepare for that. I would do anything to prevent what's coming, but it's not within my control. The actions are not ours, but the consequences are.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Susan, I've really enjoyed the discussion, but I've got to get to bed. Ttyl!


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Money is the only reason we're friends with Saudi Arabia. They are the antithesis of what our country is or was. Our government sold our souls to the devil, when we made the petrodollar deal with them. We're supporting one of the cruelest regimes ever. All of it was to prop up the dollar, until the wealthy could rob everyone in the world of their wealth. The jig is up. It seems to me that everyone but the American citizens are coming to understand this.
> 
> China is no ally. They've used us just as we've used them, only they were smarter. They actually create stuff. We're consumers, we just consume stuff. They've taken all of those dollars they got from us, they built up their military and they bought gold. They've opened a new trade bank to rival the world bank. The US's allies are jumping off the sinking ship that is the dollar. China is backing their currency with something of value, gold. Its inflation proof! The federal reserve (which is NOT federal), has inflated the dollar to the degree that its lost over 90% of its value in the last 100 years. This hasn't only been felt by us, but by the peoples of the world. It's theft. They've been robbing us blind. When the dollar crashes (and it will), the wealthy walk away with all the money, and you and I end up holding the bag. Meaning $trillions in national debt and $quadrillions in derivatives. Any thoughts on how we'll repay it?
> 
> China is an ally with Russia, not the US. They are both working to replace the dollar and both have threatened to go to war with us. You really should read up on the news that the media didn't tell us. Things are dire.


I agree with much of what you say, Nebraska, but certainly not all.

It's absolutely true that money/oil is the glue holding our so-called friendship with Saudi Arabia together. That BFF stuff is going to evaporate the instant the last drop of oil is pumped out--our country and their's are going to be at each others' throats.

But China is our ally (at least for now), and probably one of the best we have, if only for economic reasons. Being able to produce cheap goods means absolutely nothing if there's no one to buy them--it's like being stranded on a desert island with a suitcase full of money.

And China and Russia LOATHE each other, and always have. They're rivals, their borders are much too close together for comfort, and they're racists. Jokes abounded in the 70s and 80s in the Soviet Union about all the slant-eyes babies that would follow a Chinese invasion--China was and is their "Yellow Peril", and they remain convinced they'll come pouring across the border at the first opportunity.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Susan, I've really enjoyed the discussion, but I've got to get to bed. Ttyl!


Night, Nebraska. Sweet dreams.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

I don't think there's too much to worry about re China or Russia in particular at this point. They're immersed in national debt so great they'll be preoccupied with it for years to come. As for North Korea, their weaponry would probably only reach US bases in South Korea or Japan and why on earth would they want to strike US interests anyway? That would assure them catastrophic retaliation by the US.

As for Iran, I think they're posturing themselves to be the bartering chip in the Middle East and I don't think they'd be stupid enough to carry out any threats (assuming they can back them up), with the mess that the region is currently in.

Like it or not, these countries have a vested interest to be on civil terms with the US. Those interests being survival.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I don't think there's too much to worry about re China or Russia in particular at this point. They're immersed in national debt so great they'll be preoccupied with it for years to come. As for North Korea, their weaponry would probably only reach US bases in South Korea or Japan and why on earth would they want to strike US interests anyway? That would assure them catastrophic retaliation by the US.
> 
> As for Iran, I think they're posturing themselves to be the bartering chip in the Middle East and I don't think they'd be stupid enough to carry out any threats (assuming they can back them up), with the mess that the region is currently in.
> 
> Like it or not, these countries have a vested interest to be on civil terms with the US. Those interests being survival.


I agree, Wombat--ISIS is the proverbial bat caught in Iran's hair. Until they get it out I don't expect them to cause any serious serious trouble for the West.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree, Wombat--ISIS is the proverbial bat caught in Iran's hair. Until they get it out I don't expect them to cause any serious serious trouble for the West.


 :XD: I love it! Bat in Iran's hair! :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Doubtless you'd put the freedom to discriminate against gays on that list...
> 
> But never mind. I think it's foolish to equate here-and-now problems in the Middle East with Biblical prophesies and Armageddon. You may be prepared to simply fold your hands and wait for the Second Coming, but most of the world is not. The situation in the Middle East has changed (as indicated by the formation of ISIS), but all of us (and that includes Netanyahu) need to find a way to deal with it.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree with much of what you say, Nebraska, but certainly not all.
> 
> It's absolutely true that money/oil is the glue holding our so-called friendship with Saudi Arabia together. That BFF stuff is going to evaporate the instant the last drop of oil is pumped out--our country and their's are going to be at each others' throats.
> 
> ...


Things are not as they used to be. Things are rapidly changing, all over the world. China and Russia no longer " loathe" each other. They're quickly becoming best buddies.

This is a quote of a statement Putin made to the Chines Premiere, "We are natural partners, natural allies. We are neighbors.". 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/china-leader-signs-trade-deals-with-russia-in-visit-to-sanction-squeezed-moscow/2014/10/14/7889243a-52e4-11e4-b86d-184ac281388d_story.html

This is an article about the China backed AIIB investment bank, that our allies are rushing to join. It will end up replacing the world Bank, which is under US control.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0MO00F20150328?irpc=932

This article is about the China Russia trade boom.
http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2014/12/24/china-russia-trade-boom-2015.htmlhtml

There is a LOT more information about what's going on in the world today, that is not being covered by our media. Our media is complicit in spreading the fairy tale that everything is getting better for the US. It's not! In fact, the house of cards is about to come falling down.

If you want more information, read about the BRICS countries.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Things are not as they used to be. Things are rapidly changing, all over the world. China and Russia no longer " loathe" each other. They're quickly becoming best buddies.
> 
> This is a quote of a statement Putin made to the Chines Premiere, "We are natural partners, natural allies. We are neighbors.".
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/china-leader-signs-trade-deals-with-russia-in-visit-to-sanction-squeezed-moscow/2014/10/14/7889243a-52e4-11e4-b86d-184ac281388d_story.html


I don't deny that he said it, but you have no idea how ludicrous that statement was when taken in historical context--the chorus of guffaws and snickers could be heard from pole to pole. They are not allies and will never form a lasting alliance.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

double post


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I don't think there's too much to worry about re China or Russia in particular at this point. They're immersed in national debt so great they'll be preoccupied with it for years to come. As for North Korea, their weaponry would probably only reach US bases in South Korea or Japan and why on earth would they want to strike US interests anyway? That would assure them catastrophic retaliation by the US.
> 
> As for Iran, I think they're posturing themselves to be the bartering chip in the Middle East and I don't think they'd be stupid enough to carry out any threats (assuming they can back them up), with the mess that the region is currently in.
> 
> Like it or not, these countries have a vested interest to be on civil terms with the US. Those interests being survival.


China already has the #1 economy of the world. As the dollar dies and the US is circling the drain, they're already making deals with Russia to take our place in trade. China is already on top, and Russia is climbing up. The US is in decline. We're witnessing the fall of the american empire.

North Korea is actively in the process of developing a missile that would deliver their payload to the US. Their failures have been very public, but someday they will get in right. Not that they need a missile to destroy us, as I stated earlier they could do the deed with a fishing boat, from the Gulf of Mexico.

As for Iran? I would put nothing past them. They hate us! We interfered in their country. We took out their duly elected leader and installed the shah, who was incredibly cruel to their people. They've long memories. The middle easterners don't think like we do. They're led by clans and tribes, and revenge rules the day. I think the day will come when we'll be dealing with Iran on a personal level. They're just biding their time.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I don't deny that he said it, but you have no idea how ludicrous that statement was when taken in historical context--the chorus of guffaws and snickers could be heard from pole to pole. They are not allies and will never form a lasting alliance.


I think you should research the subject. The guffaws and snickers may be aimed at you. I'm not kidding. A LOT has changed.

Gotta go play with Max. Ttyl.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> China already has the #1 economy of the world. As the dollar dies and the US is circling the drain, they're already making deals with Russia to take our place in trade. China is already on top, and Russia is climbing up. The US is in decline. We're witnessing the fall of the american empire.
> 
> North Korea is actively in the process of developing a missile that would deliver their payload to the US. Their failures have been very public, but someday they will get in right. Not that they need a missile to destroy us, as I stated earlier they could do the deed with a fishing boat, from the Gulf of Mexico.
> 
> As for Iran? I would put nothing past them. They hate us! We interfered in their country. We took out their duly elected leader and installed the shah, who was incredibly cruel to their people. They've long memories. The middle easterners don't think like we do. They're led by clans and tribes, and revenge rules the day. I think the day will come when we'll be dealing with Iran on a personal level. They're just biding their time.


I don't doubt it--but they need the West's support to beat back ISIS, and until the caliph is broken up they can be counted on to be (sort of, for them) agreeable. ISIS is a boon to the West because it's keeping so many Middle Eastern countries busy fighting us, just as the Iran-Iraq did. We funneled money and arms to both sides back in the 80s just to keep the party going, and I have no doubt we'll always stop short of squashing ISIS completely for exactly the same reason.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think you should research the subject. The guffaws and snickers may be aimed at you. I'm not kidding. A LOT has changed.


Not that much. Putin is now isolated and desperate, and China taking him to its bosom would be as foolhardy as inviting in the homeless guy with 143.5 million relatives in tow.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> I don't deny that he said it, but you have no idea how ludicrous that statement was when taken in historical context--the chorus of guffaws and snickers could be heard from pole to pole. They are not allies and will never form a lasting alliance.


 :thumbup: :XD: :XD:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: I love it! Bat in Iran's hair! :XD: :XD: :XD:


Well, mosques don't have belfries, do they? But ayatollahs certainly have hair.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I don't deny that he said it, but you have no idea how ludicrous that statement was when taken in historical context--the chorus of guffaws and snickers could be heard from pole to pole. They are not allies and will never form a lasting alliance.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> China already has the #1 economy of the world. As the dollar dies and the US is circling the drain, they're already making deals with Russia to take our place in trade. China is already on top, and Russia is climbing up. The US is in decline. We're witnessing the fall of the american empire.
> 
> North Korea is actively in the process of developing a missile that would deliver their payload to the US. Their failures have been very public, but someday they will get in right. Not that they need a missile to destroy us, as I stated earlier they could do the deed with a fishing boat, from the Gulf of Mexico.
> 
> As for Iran? I would put nothing past them. They hate us! We interfered in their country. We took out their duly elected leader and installed the shah, who was incredibly cruel to their people. They've long memories. The middle easterners don't think like we do. They're led by clans and tribes, and revenge rules the day. I think the day will come when we'll be dealing with Iran on a personal level. They're just biding their time.


"Iran" doesn't hate us; the current leaders do, but they haven't always led and may not in future. The Iranian people, for the most part, are great fans of the US.

As for the dollar, we'd be better off if we allowed it's value to decrease to its actual level. Now it's being held artificially high at the request of our trading partners. So we can afford to buy their stuff, but they can't afford ours, which worsens our unemployment problem. The Chinese are keeping their currency low, so their stuff is cheap by comparison, even though they have so much foreign money stashed away. They are just being smarter than us, and we could learn from them.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Not that much. Putin is now isolated and desperate, and China taking him to its bosom would be as foolhardy as inviting in the homeless guy with 143.5 million relatives in tow.


Very well put.

:XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

So an agreement of sorts with Iran re their bomb capabilities has been reached. Wonder how long this will last.

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/04/03/05/00/nuclear-agreement-reached-on-iran


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Well, mosques don't have belfries, do they? But ayatollahs certainly have hair.


Ayatollahs wear head gear. A bat's worst nightmare! :XD:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree with much of what you say, Nebraska, but certainly not all.
> 
> It's absolutely true that money/oil is the glue holding our so-called friendship with Saudi Arabia together. That BFF stuff is going to evaporate the instant the last drop of oil is pumped out--our country and their's are going to be at each others' throats.
> 
> ...


Last Paragraph -- I completely agree.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

IMHO it better last. If John Kerry and President Obama have brought this together and the Republicans manage to derail this, we all better start praying.



Wombatnomore said:


> So an agreement of sorts with Iran re their bomb capabilities has been reached. Wonder how long this will last.
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/04/03/05/00/nuclear-agreement-reached-on-iran


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

But now China and Russia are coming together with us and others in this historic agreement with Iran. Hell is chillly and pigs are on the runway.



Designer1234 said:


> Last Paragraph -- I completely agree.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> "Netanyahu voices outrage that nuclear talks go on while Iran vows to destroy Israel"
> 
> This is a quote of a statement made yesterday by Mohammad Reza Naqd, Commander of the basij militia of Iran's Revolutionary Guard. "Israel's destruction is non negotiable.".
> 
> ...


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> So an agreement of sorts with Iran re their bomb capabilities has been reached. Wonder how long this will last.
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/04/03/05/00/nuclear-agreement-reached-on-iran


Wombatnomore
Any time we can gain time, we are ahead. Just think, the Iranian Leaders do not have eternal Life and most young Iranians wish for a better one. There is hope for them if we can prevent War and should do that at all cost for everyone's sake.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska said:
> 
> 
> > "Netanyahu voices outrage that nuclear talks go on while Iran vows to destroy Israel"
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> But now China and Russia are coming together with us and others in this historic agreement with Iran. Hell is chillly and pigs are on the runway.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

:-D


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> :-D


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Well, mosques don't have belfries, do they? But ayatollahs certainly have hair.


Did you forget the Minaret?


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> "Iran" doesn't hate us; the current leaders do, but they haven't always led and may not in future. The Iranian people, for the most part, are great fans of the US.
> 
> As for the dollar, we'd be better off if we allowed it's value to decrease to its actual level. Now it's being held artificially high at the request of our trading partners. So we can afford to buy their stuff, but they can't afford ours, which worsens our unemployment problem. The Chinese are keeping their currency low, so their stuff is cheap by comparison, even though they have so much foreign money stashed away. They are just being smarter than us, and we could learn from them.


You statement has so much truth. With the Aussie dollar being devalued against the US dollar many people are rethinking purchasing items from the US online, they are way to expensive because of the devaluation. I am seriously thinking of not renewing my subscriptions to the Interweave publications when the subscriptions fall due. I was lucky three years ago when the Australian dollar was above parity and the Aussie dollar bought over $1US. I renewed my subscriptions for three years. Now the $AU is down to 0.76 US dollar it makes buying from the US too expensive. It is also a boost for foreign tourism in Australia but not good for Aussies travelling abroad. Most foreign tourist destinations are quoted in $US. So now is the time for you to head to Australia for a holiday, and do not forget to bring the cheque book or credit card to spend up big while you are down here. All your spending will help the Australian economy.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I don't deny that he said it, but you have no idea how ludicrous that statement was when taken in historical context--the chorus of guffaws and snickers could be heard from pole to pole. They are not allies and will never form a lasting alliance.


I agree - they have been enemies for years and years- I can't see either of them really accepting the other. Lots of differences and a lot of racial problems too.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Wombatnomore
> Any time we can gain time, we are ahead. Just think, the Iranian Leaders do not have eternal Life and most young Iranians wish for a better one. There is hope for them if we can prevent War and should do that at all cost for everyone's sake.


Huckleberry, I agree with you. I sincerely do not believe that any government in the Middle East (except, dare I say perhaps Syria and maybe Israel: http://rt.com/news/246397-israel-survival-iran-netanyahu/), intends to perpetrate further unrest in the region while terrorist groups continue to fulminate. Surely the task before all concerned is to take back control and restore stability before the region implodes upon itself?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Huck, I think the following *satire* was written with you in mind, not to mention the gang from Arizona:
> 
> Borowitz Report
> 
> ...


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Anyone who's watched John McCain for awhile can see this, satire or no. Here's a POW who seems to love war.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

For those of you who think Russia and China are still enemies, be informed that they are forging both economic AND military alliances against the US.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/10/russia-china-alliance-future

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/4/james-lyons-and-richard-fisher-china-russia-build-/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2014/05/20/a-russia-china-alliance-is-emerging-and-it-will-be-a-disaster-for-the-west/

If you still don't believe it, just google, "are Russia and China allies?".


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> :-D


 :XD: :XD: Love it Cheeky!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Did you forget the Minaret?


I didn't forget; I decided that it wasn't a belfry because there are no bells in it. There is either the muezzin, singing out the call to prayer, or a very loud sound system, doing likewise. And a family of bats, I suppose.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Anyone who's watched John McCain for awhile can see this, satire or no. Here's a POW who seems to love war.


Because like all politicians, he is not his own man. He is owned by military contractors. And he is losing his marbles. And he is from Arizona. He makes sense to me. Plus I hear he has an unstable temper. However, I don't think I can say he has high testosterone anymore.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Anyone who's watched John McCain for awhile can see this, satire or no. Here's a POW who seems to love war.


Can you still hear him singing "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran"? The Senate's own Beach Boy.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> You statement has so much truth. With the Aussie dollar being devalued against the US dollar many people are rethinking purchasing items from the US online, they are way to expensive because of the devaluation. I am seriously thinking of not renewing my subscriptions to the Interweave publications when the subscriptions fall due. I was lucky three years ago when the Australian dollar was above parity and the Aussie dollar bought over $1US. I renewed my subscriptions for three years. Now the $AU is down to 0.76 US dollar it makes buying from the US too expensive. It is also a boost for foreign tourism in Australia but not good for Aussies travelling abroad. Most foreign tourist destinations are quoted in $US. So now is the time for you to head to Australia for a holiday, and do not forget to bring the cheque book or credit card to spend up big while you are down here. All your spending will help the Australian economy.


Wish I could, but I'm reluctant to leave the country for fear that our fixed income will end up in the hands of bankers while we're away.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Because like all politicians, he is not his own man. He is owned by military contractors. And he is losing his marbles. And he is from Arizona. He makes sense to me. Plus I hear he has an unstable temper. However, I don't think I can say he has high testosterone anymore.


Then why would he call his wife the C word in public? I guess to make people think he still has some T.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Then why would he call his wife the C word in public? I guess to make people think he still has some T.


OMG, he really said that? That's appalling!


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> :-D


Cheeky Blighter
that is wonderful. Thank you.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Can you still hear him singing "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran"? The Senate's own Beach Boy.


Poor Purl
something has gone astray in McCain's upper chamber. Clear thinking is no longer possible for him. We need to start screaming for term limits.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

This is a very interesting article concerning the nuclear deal with Iran. It has LOTS of important information, some of which came from the following "Daily Beast" article. 
http://www.wnd.com/2015/04/all-evidence-suggests-iran-already-has-nuclear-warheads/

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/29/does-iran-have-secret-nukes-in-north-korea.html

I recommend reading it. You won't hear this info on the news, even though bits and peices of it have been covered in the past. More peices of the puzzle.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> This is a very interesting article concerning the nuclear deal with Iran. It has LOTS of important information, some of which came from the following "Daily Beast" article.
> http://www.wnd.com/2015/04/all-evidence-suggests-iran-already-has-nuclear-warheads/
> 
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/29/does-iran-have-secret-nukes-in-north-korea.html
> ...


What is the big surprise? It is 70 year old technology. I am sure Iran is totally weaponized. That is why I believe what Netanyahu says about them. The Iranian Military is not going to be hobbled by any agreement their president puts in place.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> OMG, he really said that? That's appalling!


Doesn't she have all the wealth? She didn't appear to be happy from what I could see.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> China already has the #1 economy of the world. As the dollar dies and the US is circling the drain, they're already making deals with Russia to take our place in trade. China is already on top, and Russia is climbing up. The US is in decline. We're witnessing the fall of the american empire.
> 
> North Korea is actively in the process of developing a missile that would deliver their payload to the US. Their failures have been very public, but someday they will get in right. Not that they need a missile to destroy us, as I stated earlier they could do the deed with a fishing boat, from the Gulf of Mexico.
> 
> As for Iran? I would put nothing past them. They hate us! We interfered in their country. We took out their duly elected leader and installed the shah, who was incredibly cruel to their people. They've long memories. The middle easterners don't think like we do. They're led by clans and tribes, and revenge rules the day. I think the day will come when we'll be dealing with Iran on a personal level. They're just biding their time.


------------------------
you really are the voice of Doom Neb but in some ways I agree with you.. I hope you are wrong.

I don't believe China and Russia will ever trust each other. Russia is well known for its racism and I don't think Russia has the wealth or ability to gain much power yet. They might join together for political reasons, but I believe that neither one trust the other and never will. History has shown the strong dislike - The WW II showed Russia's true colors I believe. They wanted to rule the world and had no use for the Jews or anyone different- They were stopped but their history has shown that they have not changed in my opinion.

I don't believe Russia is in good shape economically.

I don't know about China but more and more it seems they have had much more success than Russia. I don't believe they are as powerful yet, as you say Neb, but I don't know that for a fact and they are certainly making their mark in their dealings with other countries. You say they have huge amounts of gold and have already taken the US's position as the most powerful in the world.I don't think that has happened but I think there is a possibility that if the US doesn't get its act together Politically and economically and publicly,that is a good possibility although it isn't the fact yet in my opinion. 
North Korea is a real worry -- I think he is quite close to being able to send a 'payload' to the U.S. He is crazy and power hungry. I worry about that too. There is no way he can be reasoned with so I really have no idea what the answer is there. I do believe that he is a definite threat. As we are on the West Coast of the Border with the US it is a huge worry for us in my opinion.

As far as Iran is concerned I feel more positive and believe that at least the President is trying to find a way to avoid war. The US and the World don't need a war with Iran. You are still recuperating from the war with Iraq. I believe this is the best way and quite possible that talking rather than shooting might just work. I believe it is a good policy to try.

I do believe that if something positive doesn't happen in the US and the deep chasm which is happening now isn't sorted out - that there is a good possibility that the US will lose 'face' in the world and their economy can be damaged beyond repair. It is a huge worry.

I am not quoting any one else's opinion but my own and I could be completely off base, I hope I am.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

ICE is releasing an illegal immigrant with drug resistant tuberculosis. Really?!? What are they thinking? 
http://arizonadailyindependent.com/2015/04/04/dhs-plans-to-release-illegal-tuberculosis-victim-from-florence/


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> ICE is releasing an illegal immigrant with drug resistant tuberculosis. Really?!? What are they thinking?
> http://arizonadailyindependent.com/2015/04/04/dhs-plans-to-release-illegal-tuberculosis-victim-from-florence/


Knitter from Nebraska
that kind of stuff I fear much more than Iran using Nuclear Weapons.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> that kind of stuff I fear much more than Iran using Nuclear Weapons.


 :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

This I can sort of get behind:

http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/04/an_iran_deal_isnt_just_about_b.html


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I live in AZ and have never heard of this issue or this paper.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> ICE is releasing an illegal immigrant with drug resistant tuberculosis. Really?!? What are they thinking?
> http://arizonadailyindependent.com/2015/04/04/dhs-plans-to-release-illegal-tuberculosis-victim-from-florence/


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> ICE is releasing an illegal immigrant with drug resistant tuberculosis. Really?!? What are they thinking?
> http://arizonadailyindependent.com/2015/04/04/dhs-plans-to-release-illegal-tuberculosis-victim-from-florence/


Any good news today?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I live in AZ and have never heard of this issue or this paper.


Have you heard of CBS?
http://www.kpho.com/story/28718113/az-lawmakers-urge-dhs-ice-not-to-release-illegal-immigrant-with-tb

Or Congressman Paul Gosar?
http://gosar.house.gov/press-release/rep-gosar-warns-ice-not-release-illegal-drug-resistant-tuberculosis-az-community


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Any good news today?


I haven't listened to any news today.

But my own good news includes spending the day with my family. I had a wonderful day, but now I'm exhausted and I have a headache.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> ICE is releasing an illegal immigrant with drug resistant tuberculosis. Really?!? What are they thinking?
> http://arizonadailyindependent.com/2015/04/04/dhs-plans-to-release-illegal-tuberculosis-victim-from-florence/


My husband is a nurse and there has been a drug resistant TB since about 2009 or earlier. Nothing new.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> This is a very interesting article concerning the nuclear deal with Iran. It has LOTS of important information, some of which came from the following "Daily Beast" article.
> http://www.wnd.com/2015/04/all-evidence-suggests-iran-already-has-nuclear-warheads/
> 
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/29/does-iran-have-secret-nukes-in-north-korea.html
> ...


And you are not going to get the real info anywhere. My BIL is a Lt. Col. in the Army and one of the assistants to the Attorney General. Trust me - we don't hear any of what is going on.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> My husband is a nurse and there has been a drug resistant TB since about 2009 or earlier. Nothing new.


Of course it's not new. But what is new, is the callous disregard for American lives. This from the CDC.

Ethical and Legal Issues
Strict infection-control measures are necessary to prevent the spread of XDR TB. Patients with XDR TB might need to be placed in airborne infectious isolation while initial treatment response is monitored in order to prevent disease transmission to others. Guidance is needed regarding the ethical and legal issues involved in identifying and treating persons with XDR TB. The adequacy of current public health laws in the United States to address drug-resistant TB has not been studied comprehensively since 1993 (29). All states have laws to compel isolation for persons with certain infectious diseases (including TB); however, these laws vary by state, and those for TB might be contingent on patient nonadherence and failure of voluntary measures. Public health authorities must balance the interests of the public with individual rights. Legal and ethical issues become even more complicated when persons have XDR TB because prolonged isolation might be necessary even when a patient is adherent. In addition, for some patients, no effective treatment is available that would allow for release from isolation on completion. Additional complexity also exists regarding non-U.S. citizens with infectious XDR TB who are scheduled to be repatriated to their native countries. U.S. public health officials might not be familiar with public health laws of other countries.

So, I'm wondering why ICE would just release someone with drug resistant TB? TB is an airborne disease.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5803a1.htm


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> And you are not going to get the real info anywhere. My BIL is a Lt. Col. in the Army and one of the assistants to the Attorney General. Trust me - we don't hear any of what is going on.


I don't question the fact that our government is not open and honest with us. However, I think it's a bit of exaggeration to say, that we don't hear any of what is going on. I'm also glad I don't have a BIL who works for the attorney general, and admits that they lie to the rest of us. I don't find that commendable.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> ICE is releasing an illegal immigrant with drug resistant tuberculosis. Really?!? What are they thinking?
> http://arizonadailyindependent.com/2015/04/04/dhs-plans-to-release-illegal-tuberculosis-victim-from-florence/


I'm not sure what the big deal here is, Nebraska--three to twenty percent of TB cases in this country are of the drug-resistant variety. It simply means that the person in question isn't responding to the most common antibiotics used and needs a prolonged course of treatment--sometimes a long as two years--using more powerful drugs. If the person is being released he or she isn't contagious anymore--no surprise as antibiotics render TB patients' sputum negative long before they're officially cured.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm not sure what the big deal here is, Nebraska--three to twenty percent of TB cases in this country are of the drug-resistant variety. It simply means that the person in question isn't responding to the most common antibiotics used and needs a prolonged course of treatment--sometimes a long as two years--using more powerful drugs. If the person is being released he or she isn't contagious anymore--no surprise as antibiotics render TB patients' sputum negative long before they're officially cured.


If you'd read the article, you'd understand that he has ACTIVE TB. That's what the big deal is. He IS contagious!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I haven't listened to any news today.
> 
> But my own good news includes spending the day with my family. I had a wonderful day, but now I'm exhausted and I have a headache.


Have a nice cup of tea, a Bex and a good lie down! Remember that KFN? My mother used to laugh her head off when she heard that ad on the radio years ago (so she told me).

Sorry to hear you have a headache. :|


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> If you'd read the article, you'd understand that he has ACTIVE TB. That's what the big deal is. He IS contagious!


There are a lot of people running around with TB. There are approx 400 cases diagnosed in my state each year. Apparently one needs to be in close proximity to an affected person over a long period of time to catch it. I don't think it's too much to worry about.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombat - things are cooling down in Oz. See that it is the end of daylight savings time for y'all.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

GWPlver said:


> And you are not going to get the real info anywhere. My BIL is a Lt. Col. in the Army and one of the assistants to the Attorney General. Trust me - we don't hear any of what is going on.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Why is it so difficult to understand that not all information must be public?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> If you'd read the article, you'd understand that he has ACTIVE TB. That's what the big deal is. He IS contagious!


I did read the article, Nebraska, and I'm aware that this so-called illegal has active TB--but so too does anyone being treated for the disease. That doesn't mean, however, that he or she is contagious--beginning a course of antibiotics makes the disease non-transmittable in a relatively short period of time (just a someone who takes amoxicillin for a sinus infection is non-contagious within a day or so--long before he or she feels completely well).

I'm not trying to be rude or condescending, but you let these articles scare you silly when there's no need to. Why not do your research before getting all tied up in a knot? There are plenty of things in this world to be concerned about without adding on the junk in these scare stories.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put.



susanmos2000 said:


> I did read the article, Nebraska, and I'm aware that this so-called illegal has active TB--but so too does anyone being treated for the disease. That doesn't mean, however, that he or she is contagious--beginning a course of antibiotics makes the disease non-transmittable in a relatively short period of time (just a someone who takes amoxicillin for a sinus infection is non-contagious within a day or so--long before he or she feels completely well).
> 
> I'm not trying to be rude or condescending, but you let these articles scare you silly when there's no need to. Why not do your research before getting all tied up in a knot? There are plenty of things in this world to be concerned about without adding on the junk in these scare stories.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> My husband is a nurse and there has been a drug resistant TB since about 2009 or earlier. Nothing new.


GWIPer
it was spotted earlier.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't question the fact that our government is not open and honest with us. However, I think it's a bit of exaggeration to say, that we don't hear any of what is going on. I'm also glad I don't have a BIL who works for the attorney general, and admits that they lie to the rest of us. I don't find that commendable.


Knitter from Nebraska
where was it said that they are lying to us? I did not see such writings. Fact is that we do not get to know everything and that I am happy about.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Of course it's not new. But what is new, is the callous disregard for American lives. This from the CDC.
> 
> Ethical and Legal Issues
> Strict infection-control measures are necessary to prevent the spread of XDR TB. Patients with XDR TB might need to be placed in airborne infectious isolation while initial treatment response is monitored in order to prevent disease transmission to others. Guidance is needed regarding the ethical and legal issues involved in identifying and treating persons with XDR TB. The adequacy of current public health laws in the United States to address drug-resistant TB has not been studied comprehensively since 1993 (29). All states have laws to compel isolation for persons with certain infectious diseases (including TB); however, these laws vary by state, and those for TB might be contingent on patient nonadherence and failure of voluntary measures. Public health authorities must balance the interests of the public with individual rights. Legal and ethical issues become even more complicated when persons have XDR TB because prolonged isolation might be necessary even when a patient is adherent. In addition, for some patients, no effective treatment is available that would allow for release from isolation on completion. Additional complexity also exists regarding non-U.S. citizens with infectious XDR TB who are scheduled to be repatriated to their native countries. U.S. public health officials might not be familiar with public health laws of other countries.
> ...


Question, What or who is ICE???


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Question, What or who is ICE???


Shirley, this is just a very quick cut and past job here.

http://www.ice.gov/

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) enforces federal laws governing border control, customs, trade and immigration to promote homeland security and public safety.

http://www.ice.gov/contact

http://locator.ice.gov/odls/homePage.do


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Wombat - things are cooling down in Oz. See that it is the end of daylight savings time for y'all.


Yes Dear Sloth, sadly it's true! It was dark by 4.30pm yesterday owing to the dense cloud cover all day and we're experiencing a bit of a cold snap so winter is pending! I don't mind winter at all here. It's fairy mild and I can layer up on clothing to conceal flab! :-D


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Here's an interesting tid-bit about the origins of TB:

http://www.9news.com.au/health/2015/04/08/01/14/hungarian-mummies-reveal-tuberculosis-roman-origins


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Here's an interesting tid-bit about the origins of TB:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/health/2015/04/08/01/14/hungarian-mummies-reveal-tuberculosis-roman-origins


Very interesting article, Wombat. Thanks for posting it.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Of course it's not new. But what is new, is the callous disregard for American lives. This from the CDC.
> 
> Ethical and Legal Issues
> Strict infection-control measures are necessary to prevent the spread of XDR TB. Patients with XDR TB might need to be placed in airborne infectious isolation while initial treatment response is monitored in order to prevent disease transmission to others. Guidance is needed regarding the ethical and legal issues involved in identifying and treating persons with XDR TB. The adequacy of current public health laws in the United States to address drug-resistant TB has not been studied comprehensively since 1993 (29). All states have laws to compel isolation for persons with certain infectious diseases (including TB); however, these laws vary by state, and those for TB might be contingent on patient nonadherence and failure of voluntary measures. Public health authorities must balance the interests of the public with individual rights. Legal and ethical issues become even more complicated when persons have XDR TB because prolonged isolation might be necessary even when a patient is adherent. In addition, for some patients, no effective treatment is available that would allow for release from isolation on completion. Additional complexity also exists regarding non-U.S. citizens with infectious XDR TB who are scheduled to be repatriated to their native countries. U.S. public health officials might not be familiar with public health laws of other countries.
> ...


Knitter from Nebraska
there are a lot of folks near us with TB and we will never know it. Just don't let anyone sneeze in your face.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> If you'd read the article, you'd understand that he has ACTIVE TB. That's what the big deal is. He IS contagious!


Knitter from Nebraska
worry about having to be hospitalized. Now there is a pool of contamination. I don' t thrive on hyperchondria. I protect myself as much as possible and go from there.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> worry about having to be hospitalized. Now there is a pool of contamination. I don' t thrive on hyperchondria. I protect myself as much as possible and go from there.


 Today there was a news story about the FDA, which has been allowing nutritional supplement mfrs. to put stuff in their products that is harmful to people. So though their job is to protect us, they're just protecting the corps. they used to work for.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Today there was a news story about the FDA, which has been allowing nutritional supplement mfrs. to put stuff in their products that is harmful to people. So though their job is to protect us, they're just protecting the corps. they used to work for.


Oh Great! I just stocked up on my vitamins. Did they mention any of the manufacturer names, Purl?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Shirley, this is just a very quick cut and past job here.
> 
> http://www.ice.gov/
> 
> ...


Thanks Eve. I should have looked it up myself. Mind on other things today. We miss hearing from you. How are you doing? I miss you and Wombat although she has been on more than you this past while. I hope things are going well.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Oh Great! I just stocked up on my vitamins. Did they mention any of the manufacturer names, Purl?


I didn't read far enough to find out, but the article is here:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/04/07/study-warns-of-diet-supplement-dangers-kept-quiet-by-f-d-a/?ref=todayspaper


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Oh Great! I just stocked up on my vitamins. Did they mention any of the manufacturer names, Purl?


Your avatar is hilarious. Looks like both of them, including the adam's apple.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Your avatar is hilarious. Looks like both of them, including the adam's apple.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Today there was a news story about the FDA, which has been allowing nutritional supplement mfrs. to put stuff in their products that is harmful to people. So though their job is to protect us, they're just protecting the corps. they used to work for.


That's exactly what happens between the pharmaceutical corporations and the CDC. Everybody is willing to listen when it comes to what they're putting in vitamins, but nobody cares about the mercury, aluminum and formaldehyde they're putting in the vaccines. It's time to wake up and realize just how big the problem is.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Today there was a news story about the FDA, which has been allowing nutritional supplement mfrs. to put stuff in their products that is harmful to people. So though their job is to protect us, they're just protecting the corps. they used to work for.


Poor Purl
IF we would be able to examine everything we digest, we would all elect to starve. Ever wonder why so many young chaps are bald? I will never believe that it is hereditary. Why does that not happen in poor Countries who do not eat all of the chemicals we eat.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Thanks Eve. I should have looked it up myself. Mind on other things today. We miss hearing from you. How are you doing? I miss you and Wombat although she has been on more than you this past while. I hope things are going well.


I have a lot going on at the moment, plus I have been a bit under the weather the last two weeks.

Kai hired a chain saw for two days and tackled the overgrown trees in the back garden. It would be almost ten years since he cut them back. I had not realised how the Japanese pepper tree had spread. Now he has cut it back I have gained a good 20 feet of space across half the back garden. Of course, mountains of branches etc to get rid of, thankfully the prohibited burning period is over so we can burn small heaps of garden refuse after 6.00 pm. We could take it to the tip but the Shire withdrew our unlimited free access to the tip and replaced it with four vouchers per year, each trip to take one small trailer load only.

As I am getting older there are two things that I find I cannot do any more. One is using the brush cutter and the other is using the chain saw. I find both of them cause me too much back pain now I am nearly 75, so I am restricted to raking and using the tree loppers.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I know the feeling. This growing old is not so much fun.

We are thinking of going away for a couple of days as our 60th anniversary is on the 21st we are fortunate considering we only knew each other l5 days and during that time we were in the same city for 3 days. It has been a fun life with him - I am extremely lucky but then he says so is he. 60 years!!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I know the feeling. This growing old is not so much fun.
> 
> We are thinking of going away for a couple of days as our 60th anniversary is on the 21st we are fortunate considering we only knew each other l5 days and during that time we were in the same city for 3 days. It has been a fun life with him - I am extremely lucky but then he says so is he. 60 years!!


That is quite a hallmark in your lives, Shirley! Your Pat is a very lucky guy! 
You are both lucky to have each other.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> That is quite a hallmark in your lives, Shirley! Your Pat is a very lucky guy!
> You are both lucky to have each other.


I agree, Patty. Sixty years is really something to celebrate, particularly in this day and age. Three cheers!


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I know the feeling. This growing old is not so much fun.
> 
> We are thinking of going away for a couple of days as our 60th anniversary is on the 21st we are fortunate considering we only knew each other l5 days and during that time we were in the same city for 3 days. It has been a fun life with him - I am extremely lucky but then he says so is he. 60 years!!


designer1234
We shall pop a cork in your honour on that day. A special "hon"o"ur that is.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> designer1234
> We shall pop a cork in your honour on that day. A special "hon"o"ur that is.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> designer1234
> We shall pop a cork in your honour on that day. A special "hon"o"ur that is.


chuckle- Thanks for the kind wishes.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree, Patty. Sixty years is really something to celebrate, particularly in this day and age. Three cheers!


Thanks Patty and Susan. It is hard to believe. l955 was quite awhile ago. We have had some downs but more ups but we survived. We were always happy together but sometimes life got hard. We survived it and here we are.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Thanks Patty and Susan. It is hard to believe. l955 was quite awhile ago. We have had some downs but more ups but we survived. We were always happy together but sometimes life got hard. We survived it and here we are.


Congratulations, Shirley. Don't you wonder where all those years went? We had our 47th last week, and I thought that was a lot. We try to enjoy every day because one never knows what's going to happen.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I know the feeling. This growing old is not so much fun.
> 
> We are thinking of going away for a couple of days as our 60th anniversary is on the 21st we are fortunate considering we only knew each other l5 days and during that time we were in the same city for 3 days. It has been a fun life with him - I am extremely lucky but then he says so is he. 60 years!!


Congratulations to you and Pat, Shirley!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Congratulations, Shirley. Don't you wonder where all those years went? We had our 47th last week, and I thought that was a lot. We try to enjoy every day because one never knows what's going to happen.


Congratulations to you and Dean, Andrea! Where does the time go?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Congratulations, Shirley. Don't you wonder where all those years went? We had our 47th last week, and I thought that was a lot. We try to enjoy every day because one never knows what's going to happen.


Congrats Cookie and Dean!!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Congratulations, Shirley. Don't you wonder where all those years went? We had our 47th last week, and I thought that was a lot. We try to enjoy every day because one never knows what's going to happen.


how true - it has been a wonderful journey with him. Never once had a regret. We have had some very highs and some hurtful lows but we were in it together. YOu are on your way to 50th and 60 comes at you very quickly. Just enjoy the journey. Nice to hear from you Cookie.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I know the feeling. This growing old is not so much fun.
> 
> We are thinking of going away for a couple of days as our 60th anniversary is on the 21st we are fortunate considering we only knew each other l5 days and during that time we were in the same city for 3 days. It has been a fun life with him - I am extremely lucky but then he says so is he. 60 years!!


Congratulations on 60 years Designer and Pat! Wonderful achievement and testament to your enduring devotion to one another.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> Congratulations, Shirley. Don't you wonder where all those years went? We had our 47th last week, and I thought that was a lot. We try to enjoy every day because one never knows what's going to happen.


Congratulations! 47 years IS a lot!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Thanks, everyone. And now I have to give the Warriors my full attention!


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I know the feeling. This growing old is not so much fun.
> 
> We are thinking of going away for a couple of days as our 60th anniversary is on the 21st we are fortunate considering we only knew each other l5 days and during that time we were in the same city for 3 days. It has been a fun life with him - I am extremely lucky but then he says so is he. 60 years!!


Enjoy your short break together. I hope the weather is clement.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> how true - it has been a wonderful journey with him. Never once had a regret. We have had some very highs and some hurtful lows but we were in it together. YOu are on your way to 50th and 60 comes at you very quickly. Just enjoy the journey. Nice to hear from you Cookie.


Congratulations to you Designer. What a wonderful milestone for you and your husband. Wishing you many more!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> Congratulations to you Designer. What a wonderful milestone for you and your husband. Wishing you many more!


Thank you - we are enjoying knowing we have made it that long. He is always supportive and makes me laugh.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I know the feeling. This growing old is not so much fun.
> 
> We are thinking of going away for a couple of days as our 60th anniversary is on the 21st we are fortunate considering we only knew each other l5 days and during that time we were in the same city for 3 days. It has been a fun life with him - I am extremely lucky but then he says so is he. 60 years!!


60 years! Congratulations! You both chose well. I hope you have a wonderful time. Where are you thinking of going?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> Congratulations, Shirley. Don't you wonder where all those years went? We had our 47th last week, and I thought that was a lot. We try to enjoy every day because one never knows what's going to happen.


Congrats, CQ! That's awesome! Time flies doesn't it?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> 60 years! Congratulations! You both chose well. I hope you have a wonderful time. Where are you thinking of going?


We will just go up island for a couple of days. We have explored most of this part (south) and will likely go up to Parksville and further up the coast. Have a KP friend we will meet for coffee in Courtenay and a friend in Comox. Just go until we feel like turning around and coming home. Not definite yet. Thanks for the congratulations. Anniversary isn't until the21st.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

To KFN: Thank you!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> We will just go up island for a couple of days. We have explored most of this part (south) and will likely go up to Parksville and further up the coast. Have a KP friend we will meet for coffee in Courtenay and a friend in Comox. Just go until we feel like turning around and coming home. Not definite yet. Thanks for the congratulations. Anniversary isn't until the21st.


Oh! That sounds like fun. On our next vacation, I want to either rent an RV or camp out. I want to be able to just move at our own pace, not having to worry about making it to the next hotel because we've reserved a room. No reservations! Just go wherever the spirit moves us. We're planning to do that next year, taking a trip down to Sedona, AZ.

I hope you have lots of fun. Be sure to take pics, so you can share them with us.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> To KFN: Thank you!


You're welcome.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Will the US get involved in another war in the middle east? Between Iran and Saudi Arabia? How many wars can we fight, at one time?
http://thehill.com/policy/defense/239295-us-officials-concerned-about-iranian-convoy-headed-towards-yemen


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

This should concern not just Canadians, but all of us. It's happening everywhere. This is a blatent transfer of wealth from Canadian farmers, to a Saudi investment firm. Theft!
http://rabble.ca/news/2015/04/sold-canadian-wheat-board-no-longer-quite-so-canadian


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Will the US get involved in another war in the middle east? Between Iran and Saudi Arabia? How many wars can we fight, at one time?
> http://thehill.com/policy/defense/239295-us-officials-concerned-about-iranian-convoy-headed-towards-yemen


Good question, Nebraska. And how the heck are we going to pay for them all?


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Good question, Nebraska. And how the heck are we going to pay for them all?


Why, increase the defense budget, of course. Right now the military takes up about 22% of our budget (so much for the "gutting" of our military), so to increase it we'll have to take away from other things.

Then, of course, the draft will need to be reinstated because with all the wars the right wants us to fight we have to increase the manpower.

If the Republicans take the white house as well as congress we will be on a constant war footing. The British had their 100 Year War--in the name of American exceptionalism we should try to top that.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> Why, increase the defense budget, of course. Right now the military takes up about 22% of our budget (so much for the "gutting" of our military), so to increase it we'll have to take away from other things.
> 
> Then, of course, the draft will need to be reinstated because with all the wars the right wants us to fight we have to increase the manpower.
> 
> If the Republicans take the white house as well as congress we will be on a constant war footing. The British had their 100 Year War--in the name of American exceptionalism we should try to top that.


This has NOTHING to do with right or left. It makes no difference which party is in power. The war mongers own them both. If you don't believe me, name me one year in the last fifty, when we weren't in one war or another. To those who own the military industrial complex and the bankers who finance them, war is money, power and control.

I agree with you that they'll probably, eventually reinstate the draft. People need to be talking about this. Do we want to live in a constant state of war? Do we want to sacrifice our children, NOT for the defense of our country, but for money, power and control? How many Viet Nams, Iraq's, and Afghanistan's will it take before we say, "NO MORE"?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> This has NOTHING to do with right or left. It makes no difference which party is in power. The war mongers own them both. If you don't believe me, name me one year in the last fifty, when we weren't in one war or another. To those who own the military industrial complex and the bankers who finance them, war is money, power and control.
> 
> I agree with you that they'll probably, eventually reinstate the draft. People need to be talking about this. Do we want to live in a constant state of war? Do we want to sacrifice our children, NOT for the defense of our country, but for money, power and control? How many Viet Nams, Iraq's, and Afghanistan's will it take before we say, "NO MORE"?


 :thumbup: 85. Sorry I did not keep my promise.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> This has NOTHING to do with right or left. It makes no difference which party is in power. The war mongers own them both. If you don't believe me, name me one year in the last fifty, when we weren't in one war or another. To those who own the military industrial complex and the bankers who finance them, war is money, power and control.
> 
> I agree with you that they'll probably, eventually reinstate the draft. People need to be talking about this. Do we want to live in a constant state of war? Do we want to sacrifice our children, NOT for the defense of our country, but for money, power and control? How many Viet Nams, Iraq's, and Afghanistan's will it take before we say, "NO MORE"?


I have my differences with tamarque, but she posted something yesterday that we should all be paying attention to - and that is the civilian death count in the mid-East at the hands of the US. I believe there is a lot of truth to the claim that we don't hear about those killings - only our own. 1.5 million may be inflated, but at even half that, at even one tenth or one one-hundredth - those deaths are on our hands and cannot be justified. It sickens me.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> :thumbup: 85. Sorry I did not keep my promise.


 :XD:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I have my differences with tamarque, but she posted something yesterday that we should all be paying attention to - and that is the civilian death count in the mid-East at the hands of the US. I believe there is a lot of truth to the claim that we don't hear about those killings - only our own. 1.5 million may be inflated, but at even half that, at even one tenth or one one-hundredth - those deaths are on our hands and cannot be justified. It sickens me.


I don't think for one minute, that those numbers are inflated. These people did nothing to anyone. Women and children among them. Is it any wonder why they hate us? And for what?!? Money, power and control! They were no threat to us.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Interesting link blaming the left for starting the anti-vaccinations .
http://www.realclearscience.com/journal_club/2014/10/20/are_liberals_or_conservatives_more_anti-vaccine_108905.html
Our kids in Arkansas have to have them before starting school.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/01/26/the-biggest-myth-about-vaccine-deniers-that-theyre-all-a-bunch-of-hippie-liberals/
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/397852/mandatory-vaccination-conservative-ira-straus


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't think for one minute, that those numbers are inflated. These people did nothing to anyone. Women and children among them. Is it any wonder why they hate us? And for what?!? Money, power and control! They were no threat to us.


I agree, Nebs. Yet our legislators (you know who they are) continue the drumbeat for war. It would be far different if the horrors were happening on our own soil and if Americans had to fear that knock on the door.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I wonder why the vaccinate promoters are so afraid of those who do not vaccinate. If the vaccines work and your children are vaccinated. What will they get from someone who is not vaccinated?
> 
> Even the scientists and Doctors say it is not for everyone, as some will get an adverse reaction even death from the vaccine. Many years ago there was a health alarm about a flu (I do not remember the name) and the government went on frenzy to make sure every one was vaccinated. In actuality more people died or had permanent disabilities from the vaccination. than the reported cases of the flu.
> 
> Who should make the best medical decision for the child other than the parents or their doctor?


From you own source:

The study found that the really big contributor to distrusting or disliking vaccines was not political ideology ideology at all, but rather, having a *conspiratorial mindset*, which can occur on both the left and the right.

Seems that correlation holds true here on KP.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I wonder why the vaccinate promoters are so afraid of those who do not vaccinate. If the vaccines work and your children are vaccinated. What will they get from someone who is not vaccinated?
> 
> Even the scientists and Doctors say it is not for everyone, as some will get an adverse reaction even death from the vaccine. Many years ago there was a health alarm about a flu (I do not remember the name) and the government went on frenzy to make sure every one was vaccinated. In actuality more people died or had permanent disabilities from the vaccination. than the reported cases of the flu.
> 
> Who should make the best medical decision for the child other than the parents or their doctor?


Not all susceptible children can be vaccinated - some too young, some having other conditions that preclude vaccination - and we have to depend on "herd immunity" to keep these children safe. If there are kids around whose parents just don't want them vaccinated, they have no right to be around the others. They can pick up the disease elsewhere and just pass it on to those susceptible ones.

Few parents have the knowledge to decide yes or no. That decision should be made by someone up-to-date on whatever the research has shown, and that's usually not laymen. It's often not even practicing doctors, if they haven't done the reading. If parents make the choice not to vaccinate, they're kids need to be in some kind of quarantine.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> From you own source:
> 
> The study found that the really big contributor to distrusting or disliking vaccines was not political ideology ideology at all, but rather, having a *conspiratorial mindset*, which can occur on both the left and the right.
> 
> Seems that correlation holds true here on KP.


Interesting.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Quarantine???????????? What happened to Freedom?
> 
> If you want someone quarantined, it should be the susceptible ones. Maybe they should live in a bubble. What should happen if two susceptible children play together? Parents and doctors know so much more than some unknown on a committee in Washington.
> 
> I will tell you that mothers know when their children are sick and the cause. Ask a Pediatrician how many times a mothers diagnosis is correct.


You ask about freedom? Come on! Every thing you post is about restricting freedom of choice, being restricted even more if you are on Welfare (heaven helpyou if you are). If you mention The President you would like to do everything possible to restrict him, and on and on.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I agree, Nebs. Yet our legislators (you know who they are) continue the drumbeat for war. It would be far different if the horrors were happening on our own soil and if Americans had to fear that knock on the door.


I understand what you are saying green but there are some Americans who have lived with the fear of the knock at the door. I am one of them. You never wanted to see the military chaplain standing at your doorstep. Because our recent wars have been fought by so few people many see these things as far removed from themselves or someone else's problem. We have cleaned it up and made it very antiseptic and the true numbers we have killed is well hidden from the public. Those who want war for the most part have never fought or had a family member who was in the military. If they had the last thing they would want is another war. The biggest hawks send others off to do the dirty work for them and sit safely at home screaming Rah Rah USA. They sicken me.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Quarantine???????????? What happened to Freedom?
> 
> If you want someone quarantined, it should be the susceptible ones. Maybe they should live in a bubble. What should happen if two susceptible children play together? Parents and doctors know so much more than some unknown on a committee in Washington.
> 
> I will tell you that mothers know when their children are sick and the cause. Ask a Pediatrician how many times a mothers diagnosis is correct.


I was using "some sort of quarantine" figuratively. Unvaccinated kids should be kept away from the others because measles is a life-threatening disease. What happened to Life (as in Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness)? Should anyone have the freedom to infect other people? The unvaccinated ones can hang out together - they don't have to be locked up like bubble babies - but they shouldn't be able to infect anyone else.

Of course mothers know when their children are sick, but they don't always know what the sickness is and they don't know the treatment for it, especially if there's been new research. And apparently some don't know about the benefits of vaccination.

And you don't lock babies and other fragile children up simply to satisfy parents who want to have measles parties. It's their choice not to allow their kids a normal (disease-free) life and to allow them to infect others. The rest of us don't have to suffer for it.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The Constitution is supposed to restrict him. But he could care less about the Constitution. He considers himself above the law.


That is your opinion. He knows the constitution well enough to know that his executive orders are legal. YOU consider him to be above the law.
Don't speak for him. You make yourself look foolish.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I have my differences with tamarque, but she posted something yesterday that we should all be paying attention to - and that is the civilian death count in the mid-East at the hands of the US. I believe there is a lot of truth to the claim that we don't hear about those killings - only our own. 1.5 million may be inflated, but at even half that, at even one tenth or one one-hundredth - those deaths are on our hands and cannot be justified. It sickens me.


Hiya D! I agree with you. She opened my eyes a little wider in her post.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I was using "some sort of quarantine" figuratively. Unvaccinated kids should be kept away from the others because measles is a life-threatening disease. What happened to Life (as in Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness)? Should anyone have the freedom to infect other people? The unvaccinated ones can hang out together - they don't have to be locked up like bubble babies - but they shouldn't be able to infect anyone else.
> 
> Of course mothers know when their children are sick, but they don't always know what the sickness is and they don't know the treatment for it, especially if there's been new research. And apparently some don't know about the benefits of vaccination.
> 
> And you don't lock babies and other fragile children up simply to satisfy parents who want to have measles parties. It's their choice not to allow their kids a normal (disease-free) life and to allow them to infect others. The rest of us don't have to suffer for it.


Joey want to have the freedom to yell "fire" in a crowded theater, too. Same logic.


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Just made another trip to Maine. This time with David and JONATHAN. Jonno did really well. He is beginning to get into this move and our new house. The house will not be ready until close to the end of July now, so we not only have a cottage on a lake for five weeks, but also are renting a house just a few blocks from where our new house will be for the last two weeks.

I have just talked with the intake person for the county we will be living in, and he was very helpful, as far as what we need to do here to help get services set up for Jonno in Maine. Apropos of that, because I have been out of touch with this forum for a few weeks, I looked at the first few pages just this evening. No wonder the intake people at JF&CS decided that Jonathan and I were both on the autism spectrum. Yow.

WE went up to Maine to see where the house will sit on the lot, and right after that we visited the town manager who told us that in spite of the general rule being one curb cut, there would be no problem with our having two, so we just need to call the code enforcer. This is looking good.

We will have to buy a good fence. It has to fit into the neighborhood well, and needs to have part that is at least a little see-through, and needs to be six feet high. There is a ravine at the back of our lot. The house might not be square to the street so as to optimize the solar potential of the PV panels on the roof. That would put my office closer to the street, and the master bedroom even farther from the street. I am not complaining. Eliana has received six lilacs from a new neighbor of hers who does not want the ones the previous owner of her house had planted in her yard, so she is figuring out exactly where six lilacs will work nicely. I am looking forward to this. This is a new experience for everyone involved.

I've also been signing lot of petitions recently. And I have checked out the news in our new town to see what we are moving into.

And praying for Nepal has also kept me occupied this week.

Elizabeth, who is now 21 months old. just got her first life jacket. She has been showing it off to everyone. She is now big enough so their dog does not see her as an infant any more, so said dog is no longer particularly careful, and has been knocking the child over a lot. The dog weighs 100 pounds and the child weighs maybe 18 pounds. 

Okay, so those are my late-night random thoughts this evening. I'm glad to be catching up with you now.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Joey want to have the freedom to yell "fire" in a crowded theater, too. Same logic.


or lack thereof. It's interesting how some people think they should be free to put others at risk but you should not be free to make your own decisions about your own body. I don't see any logic (which is scary, because Joey was a substitute math teacher for many years).


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Camacho said:


> Just made another trip to Maine. This time with David and JONATHAN. Jonno did really well. He is beginning to get into this move and our new house. The house will not be ready until close to the end of July now, so we not only have a cottage on a lake for five weeks, but also are renting a house just a few blocks from where our new house will be for the last two weeks.
> 
> I have just talked with the intake person for the county we will be living in, and he was very helpful, as far as what we need to do here to help get services set up for Jonno in Maine. Apropos of that, because I have been out of touch with this forum for a few weeks, I looked at the first few pages just this evening. No wonder the intake people at JF&CS decided that Jonathan and I were both on the autism spectrum. Yow.
> 
> ...


It must be a relief that Jonno is okay with the move. Do you expect all the moving during the summer to cause any problems - from Mass. to the cottage, then to the rental house, and finally to the new home? I don't think I'd be able to take all that moving and packing and unpacking, and my BP is going up just thinking about it.

How close will you be to Eliana and family? I imagine it will be good for you to be around them more than before.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Camacho said:


> Just made another trip to Maine. This time with David and JONATHAN. Jonno did really well. He is beginning to get into this move and our new house. The house will not be ready until close to the end of July now, so we not only have a cottage on a lake for five weeks, but also are renting a house just a few blocks from where our new house will be for the last two weeks.
> 
> I have just talked with the intake person for the county we will be living in, and he was very helpful, as far as what we need to do here to help get services set up for Jonno in Maine. Apropos of that, because I have been out of touch with this forum for a few weeks, I looked at the first few pages just this evening. No wonder the intake people at JF&CS decided that Jonathan and I were both on the autism spectrum. Yow.
> 
> ...


Hi, Camacho! I'm so glad that Jonathan is adjusting to the idea of moving. That will make everything a little easier. As things progress, you must be getting excited. In just a few months, your dreams will become reality. I'm excited for you. I pray that all goes off without a hitch and that things work out as peaceably as possible. You're going to love being closer to Elizabeth (and Eliana). Have fun!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Camacho - good to hear about your progress with the new house. You actually sound chipper about all you have to do. Welcome back.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I have been watching the riots is Baltimore. My gosh - what is happening ?

It doesn't seem from what I can see that the police are really doing anything.

They were standing on a street about l/4 of a block from a corner where people were robbing a liquor store which later was set on fire. They never moved. I don't know what their plans were for protecting. It just came on 
that people in the homes and building were asking for help from the police. What a shame. so much damage to an area that has been trying to bring in businesses and upgrade different parts of that are. A seniors home which is under construction and due to give homes to seniors is burned to the ground. Soooo sad! 

The Federal Police have been asked to go there by the Governor and are supposed to be on the way.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I have been watching the riots is Baltimore. My gosh - what is happening ?
> 
> It doesn't seem from what I can see that the police are really doing anything.
> 
> ...


I haven't watched TV today. I will never understand why a group would destroy their own neighborhood. I can understand that they are angry with the police, but isn't that like cutting off one's nose to spite their face?
From what I have read, it looks like the police are staging their own protest by not dealing with the looting and violence.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> I haven't watched TV today. I will never understand why a group would destroy their own neighborhood. I can understand that they are angry with the police, but isn't that like cutting off one's nose to spite their face?
> From what I have read, it looks like the police are staging their own protest by not dealing with the looting and violence.


Now that is an interesting observation and certainly explains the lack of action by the police. I don't care what they say about you on KP - I think you are very sharp.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

:thumbup:


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## annamatilda (Aug 10, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> The Federal Police have been asked to go there by the Governor and are supposed to be on the way.


No such thing as "Federal Police."


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Cheeks - the knitting meme is super great.

Anna M- 1234 was referring to the National Guard. She is Canadian and that is maybe what they call their National Guard.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

annamatilda said:


> No such thing as "Federal Police."


According to Wikipedia, the USA does in fact have Federal Police. Check it here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_States

Types of police

Policing in the United States is conducted by numerous types of agencies at many different levels. Every state has their own nomenclature for agencies, and their powers, responsibilities and funding varies from state to state.

Federal

Federal law enforcement in the United States. See also: Law enforcement agency § Federal responsibilities

At the federal level, there exist both federal police, who possess full federal authority as given to them under United States Code (U.S.C.), and federal law enforcement agencies, who are authorized to enforce various laws at the federal level. Both police and law enforcement agencies operate at the highest level and are endowed with police roles; each may maintain a small component of the other (for example, the FBI Police). The agencies have nationwide jurisdiction for enforcement of federal law. All federal agencies are limited by the U.S. Code to investigating only matters that are explicitly within the power of the federal government. However, federal investigative powers have become very broad in practice, especially since the passage of the USA PATRIOT Act.

The Department of Justice (DOJ) is responsible for most law enforcement duties at the federal level. It includes theFederal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF), the United States Marshals Service, the Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP) and others.

The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is another branch with numerous federal law enforcement agencies reporting to it. U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP), U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), Federal Air Marshal Service (FAMS), United States Secret Service (USSS), United States Coast Guard (USCG), Homeland Security Investigations (HSI), and the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) are some of the agencies that report to DHS. It should be noted that the United States Coast Guard is assigned to the United States Department of Defense in the event of war.

At a crime or disaster scene affecting large numbers of people, multiple jurisdictions, or broad geographic areas, many police agencies may be involved by mutual aid agreements, for example the United States Federal Protective Service responded to the Hurricane Katrina natural disaster. Command in such situations remains a complex and flexible issue.

In accordance with the federal, as opposed to unitary or confederal, structure of the United States government, the national (federal) government is not authorized to execute general police powers by the Constitution of the United States of America. Each of the United States' 50 federated states (referred to simply as 'states' in the United States despite their lack of full sovereignty) retain their own police, military and domestic law-making powers. The US Constitution gives the federal government the power to deal with foreign affairs and interstate affairs (affairs between the states). For policing, this means that if a non-federal crime is committed in a US state and the fugitive does not flee the state, the federal government has no jurisdiction. However, once the fugitive crosses a state line he or she violates the federal law of interstate flight and is subject to federal jurisdiction, at which time federal law enforcement agencies may become involved.

State

Main article: State police

Most states operate statewide government agencies that provide law enforcement duties, including investigations and state patrols. They may be called state police or highway patrol, and are normally part of the state Department of Public Safety. In addition, theAttorney General's office of each state has its own state bureau of investigation. In Texas the Texas Ranger Division fulfill this role though they have their history in the period before Texas became a state.

Various departments of state governments may have their own enforcement divisions, such as capitol police, campus police, state hospitals, Departments of Correction, water police, environmental (fish and game/wildlife) game wardens or conservation officers (who have full police powers and statewide jurisdiction). In Colorado, for instance, the Department of Revenue has its own investigative branch, as do many of the state-funded universities.

County

Also known as parishes and boroughs, county law enforcement is provided by sheriffs' departments or offices and county police.


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Jonathan has said that we are going to be gypsies for the weeks in between permanent houses. He is grinning when he says that.

I just wish that David were more into packing and less into keeping on teaching more and more classes. He has just agreed to teach an on-line course during the summer term that begins June 1. What is the man thinking, I wonder. We are supposed to be on a nice extended vacation.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

annamatilda said:


> No such thing as "Federal Police."


I think those that know me know exactly what I meant. Icouldn't remember what they were called. I stand corrected -

Sorry if I insulted anyone - I had a geriatric moment-- I meant the National Guard.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I haven't watched TV today. I will never understand why a group would destroy their own neighborhood. I can understand that they are angry with the police, but isn't that like cutting off one's nose to spite their face?
> From what I have read, it looks like the police are staging their own protest by not dealing with the looting and violence.


The thought crossed my mind. Maybe they were fearful as well. I watched one scene where the police were standing side by side across the street about 1/4 up the block from the corner while those demonstrating (rioting) were robbing a store on the corner. no one made a move to stop them. Once they looted it they started throwing stones at the line of police. I wonder what would have happened if they had taken over the corner and not allowed them to loot? That is what they are supposed to be doing -protecting people from looters etc.

makes you wonder.

My heart sinks for America and especially those who have lived in the ghettos with no way out for years. Sad indeed.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> The thought crossed my mind. Maybe they were fearful as well. I watched one scene where the police were standing side by side across the street about 1/4 up the block from the corner while those demonstrating (rioting) were robbing a store on the corner. no one made a move to stop them. Once they looted it they started throwing stones at the line of police. I wonder what would have happened if they had taken over the corner and not allowed them to loot? That is what they are supposed to be doing -protecting people from looters etc.
> 
> makes you wonder.
> 
> My heart sinks for America and especially those who have lived in the ghettos with no way out for years. Sad indeed.


People will continue to say that there is no racial problems in this country.
Bull feathers! I gave it a lot of thought today and came to the conclusion that this is the only way that the black community can draw attention to it.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> The thought crossed my mind. Maybe they were fearful as well. I watched one scene where the police were standing side by side across the street about 1/4 up the block from the corner while those demonstrating (rioting) were robbing a store on the corner. no one made a move to stop them. Once they looted it they started throwing stones at the line of police. I wonder what would have happened if they had taken over the corner and not allowed them to loot? That is what they are supposed to be doing -protecting people from looters etc.
> 
> makes you wonder.
> 
> My heart sinks for America and especially those who have lived in the ghettos with no way out for years. Sad indeed.


This is a case of a "lose-lose" for the police. If they had stepped in they would have been accused of escalating the violence and brutality. They stayed back and are accused of letting bad things happen.

There is nothing wrong with demonstrating--but this wasn't a demonstration. It was thugs running wild and destroying the neighborhood to loot it. The people in the area face real hardship because of the businesses destroyed, from a local market, to the CVS, to the under-construction senior/community center.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Camacho said:


> Jonathan has said that we are going to be gypsies for the weeks in between permanent houses. He is grinning when he says that.
> 
> I just wish that David were more into packing and less into keeping on teaching more and more classes. He has just agreed to teach an on-line course during the summer term that begins June 1. What is the man thinking, I wonder. We are supposed to be on a nice extended vacation.


Jonathan has a great sense of humor. And David thinks you'll do all of the packing. Good luck!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

PLEASE!!! Watch this ten minute interview. It is Bill Maher interviewing Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Kennedy is speaking about thimerisol in vaccines and the known corruption at the CDC. Please just listen to what he has to say. He says it better than I can. He has studied the research and says that what the CDC call "trace amounts" of thimerisol, are actually WAY more than the allowable levels. Its worth 10 minutes of everyone's time.

http://www.boughtmovie.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr-real-time-with-bill-maher/


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> This is a case of a "lose-lose" for the police. If they had stepped in they would have been accused of escalating the violence and brutality. They stayed back and are accused of letting bad things happen.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with demonstrating--but this wasn't a demonstration. It was thugs running wild and destroying the neighborhood to loot it. The people in the area face real hardship because of the businesses destroyed, from a local market, to the CVS, to the under-construction senior/community center.


Thanks for mentioning this. I did so earlier and was blasted for saying how important the stores are to these people. One woman said how long it took for a drugstore to come into that community. They are thugs who have no respect for themselves, their community or the law. It is heartening to hear today how the good people of the neighborhood regained control and cleaned up the mess.


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Thank you, Knitter from Nebraska. My daughter's doctor gave or lent her and her husband a book that clearly describes the toxins in vaccines, and has charts showing how much a human (child, I hope) can tolerate based on the child's body weight. Based on this, they agreed on a delayed schedule for immunizations for their daughter because the baby is right at the bottom of the charts for weight, so they delayed the shots until the baby weighed as much as a baby in the fiftieth percentile for weight weighs at the age at which the pediatricians' association recommends them, -- and they decided to skip the chicken pox vaccine. I hope they have been continuing with the delayed schedule. Also there are so many more vaccines than there were when they were children, and I distinctly remember my DH and me turning down some of the newer ones that our pediatrician told us about for our children.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I have been watching the Baltimore problems all day (or most of it). I am really impressed at the people who went on the streets and calmed things down. All the local Ministers including a Muslim leader were out in the 
streets, parents, young people, asking people to go home. The Police handled themselves extremely well all day and evening. The curfew went very well. Some but not much trouble. Well handled indeed.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> PLEASE!!! Watch this ten minute interview. It is Bill Maher interviewing Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Kennedy is speaking about thimerisol in vaccines and the known corruption at the CDC. Please just listen to what he has to say. He says it better than I can. He has studied the research and says that what the CDC call "trace amounts" of thimerisol, are actually WAY more than the allowable levels. Its worth 10 minutes of everyone's time.
> 
> http://www.boughtmovie.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr-real-time-with-bill-maher/


Kennedy has been talking about thimerisol for years. What I find more convincing is that Japan got rid of it for 8 years, and the incidence of autism continued to rise.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> People will continue to say that there is no racial problems in this country.
> Bull feathers! I gave it a lot of thought today and came to the conclusion that this is the only way that the black community can draw attention to it.


The media did not cover the peaceful demonstrations in Baltimore and only started national coverage when things turned violent. It
doesn't speak well for our media but they know Americans will watch violence and would be bored watching peaceful marches. I do put some of the blame on the media for the perception they give many that minorities only know one way to react and that is in destruction and anger. If I were a black I think I would be out there and angry too. There is only so much people can take and then they take to the streets and not in a quiet way. We need leaders to come forward in this country who truly care for all people and can bring us together for the good of all of us not just the fortunate few at the top. I certainly don't see that kind of leadership in the GOP and the left leaves a lot to be desired too.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> The media did not cover the peaceful demonstrations in Baltimore and only started national coverage when things turned violent. It
> doesn't speak well for our media but they know Americans will watch violence and would be bored watching peaceful marches. I do put some of the blame on the media for the perception they give many that minorities only know one way to react and that is in destruction and anger. If I were a black I think I would be out there and angry too. There is only so much people can take and then they take to the streets and not in a quiet way. We need leaders to come forward in this country who truly care for all people and can bring us together for the good of all of us not just the fortunate few at the top. I certainly don't see that kind of leadership in the GOP and the left leaves a lot to be desired too.


Actually, MSNBC did cover the peaceful deomonstrations.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think the USA Federal Government should have a way to investigate, change and try any police officer who maims or kills a civilian under questionable circumstances. I think we need to enforce punishment for criminal behavior. I think such incidents indicate a systemic problem. What do you think?



Designer1234 said:


> I think those that know me know exactly what I meant. Icouldn't remember what they were called. I stand corrected -
> 
> Sorry if I insulted anyone - I had a geriatric moment-- I meant the National Guard.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I wonder why the local approach to rioting and looting is a show of force rather than an investigation into the original murder.



Designer1234 said:


> The thought crossed my mind. Maybe they were fearful as well. I watched one scene where the police were standing side by side across the street about 1/4 up the block from the corner while those demonstrating (rioting) were robbing a store on the corner. no one made a move to stop them. Once they looted it they started throwing stones at the line of police. I wonder what would have happened if they had taken over the corner and not allowed them to loot? That is what they are supposed to be doing -protecting people from looters etc.
> 
> makes you wonder.
> 
> My heart sinks for America and especially those who have lived in the ghettos with no way out for years. Sad indeed.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I completely disagree. The police are wrong-wrong. One of their own killed a young man and so far (10 days) there has been no investigation. People are rioting because they feel there is no justice for blacks.



sumpleby said:


> This is a case of a "lose-lose" for the police. If they had stepped in they would have been accused of escalating the violence and brutality. They stayed back and are accused of letting bad things happen.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with demonstrating--but this wasn't a demonstration. It was thugs running wild and destroying the neighborhood to loot it. The people in the area face real hardship because of the businesses destroyed, from a local market, to the CVS, to the under-construction senior/community center.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

RFK died June 6, 1968. Fifty six years. No. I will not look at your interview.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> PLEASE!!! Watch this ten minute interview. It is Bill Maher interviewing Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Kennedy is speaking about thimerisol in vaccines and the known corruption at the CDC. Please just listen to what he has to say. He says it better than I can. He has studied the research and says that what the CDC call "trace amounts" of thimerisol, are actually WAY more than the allowable levels. Its worth 10 minutes of everyone's time.
> 
> http://www.boughtmovie.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr-real-time-with-bill-maher/


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> RFK died June 6, 1968. Fifty six years. No. I will not look at your interview.


Did you happen to catch the "Jr"? He's alive and well.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> The media did not cover the peaceful demonstrations in Baltimore and only started national coverage when things turned violent. It
> doesn't speak well for our media but they know Americans will watch violence and would be bored watching peaceful marches. I do put some of the blame on the media for the perception they give many that minorities only know one way to react and that is in destruction and anger. If I were a black I think I would be out there and angry too. There is only so much people can take and then they take to the streets and not in a quiet way. We need leaders to come forward in this country who truly care for all people and can bring us together for the good of all of us not just the fortunate few at the top. I certainly don't see that kind of leadership in the GOP and the left leaves a lot to be desired too.


As the people of Baltimore learned yesterday - they only have themselves to rely on.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No, I didn't. I apologize.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Did you happen to catch the "Jr"? He's alive and well.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

damemary said:


> I completely disagree. The police are wrong-wrong. One of their own killed a young man and so far (10 days) there has been no investigation. People are rioting because they feel there is no justice for blacks.


There has been an investigation, Dame. Preliminary results are to be released later this week - but not to the public. Of course, had Freddie Gray been killed by six gang members instead of six policemen, the gang members would have been in jail long ago with charges against them. The policemen have been suspended (at taxpayer expense) for who-knows-how-long.

No wonder the people of Baltimore are upset. It's a repeat of every police shooting - over and over and over. One standard for the police, a different one for citizens.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm so mad myself. How long is this injustice going to go on? Don't they know it's the lack of transparency that convince people there's a coverup? Mistakes? I think people could accept that occasionally, but not hundreds of times.



DGreen said:


> There has been an investigation, Dame. Preliminary results are to be released later this week - but not to the public. Of course, had Freddie Gray been killed by six gang members instead of six policemen, the gang members would have been in jail long ago with charges against them. The policemen have been suspended (at taxpayer expense) for who-knows-how-long.
> 
> No wonder the people of Baltimore are upset. It's a repeat of every police shooting - over and over and over. One standard for the police, a different one for citizens.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I think the USA Federal Government should have a way to investigate, change and try any police officer who maims or kills a civilian under questionable circumstances. I think we need to enforce punishment for criminal behavior. I think such incidents indicate a systemic problem. What do you think?


If the family brings a wrongful death suit, it can go to the feds. I wish every one of the affected families would do that, but apparently many of them have received settlements from the city, and that puts an end to any suit.

See http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/nonviolence-as-compliance/391640/


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> This is a case of a "lose-lose" for the police. If they had stepped in they would have been accused of escalating the violence and brutality. They stayed back and are accused of letting bad things happen.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with demonstrating--but this wasn't a demonstration. It was thugs running wild and destroying the neighborhood to loot it. The people in the area face real hardship because of the businesses destroyed, from a local market, to the CVS, to the under-construction senior/community center.


There's that word, "thugs." It allows you to trivialize the feelings of the rioters, who are young black men without jobs (for the most part) and without hope. And with the fear that any one of them could end up like Freddie Gray.

Or like the hundred or so other people who have been abused by the Baltimore police.

As for the destruction of property, and the hardship this brings,


> Over the past four years, more than 100 people have won court judgments or settlements related to allegations of brutality and civil rights violations. Victims include a 15-year-old boy riding a dirt bike, a 26-year-old pregnant accountant who had witnessed a beating, a 50-year-old woman selling church raffle tickets, a 65-year-old church deacon rolling a cigarette and an 87-year-old grandmother aiding her wounded grandson ....
> 
> And in almost every case, prosecutors or judges dismissed the charges against the victimsif charges were filed at all. In an incident that drew headlines recently, charges against a South Baltimore man were dropped after a video showed an officer repeatedly punching hima beating that led the police commissioner to say he was shocked.
> 
> *The money paid out by the city to cover for the brutal acts of its police department would be enough to build "a state-of-the-art rec center or renovations at more than 30 playgrounds." Instead, the money was used to cover for the brutal acts of the city's police department and ensure they remained well beyond any semblance of justice.* - Ta-Nehisi Coates, in _The Atlantic_


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> RFK died June 6, 1968. Fifty six years. No. I will not look at your interview.


The interview is with his son, RFK Jr.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> As the people of Baltimore learned yesterday - they only have themselves to rely on.


Do you mean those "thugs"?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Do you mean those "thugs"?


Not the thugs. The people who love there neighborhood. Are we so liberal that we cannot call people who willfully destroy thugs? Is Anarchists more PC?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Not the thugs. The people who love there neighborhood. Are we so liberal that we cannot call people who willfully destroy thugs? Is Anarchists more PC?


The people who love their neighborhood? This is not _their_ neighborhood. This is where they have to live because there's nowhere better that they can afford.

Have you seen _The Wire_?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> The people who love their neighborhood? This is not _their_ neighborhood. This is where they have to live because there's nowhere better that they can afford.
> 
> Have you seen _The Wire_?


No I have not seen the wire. I saw interviews of people from the neighborhood and they are working hard to clean it up and protect it from further violence. That suggests some pride doesn't it?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Not the thugs. The people who love there neighborhood. Are we so liberal that we cannot call people who willfully destroy thugs? Is Anarchists more PC?


People who willfully destroy? Then the word applies more to the police than to the angry, fearful young men. Read

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-brutality-of-police-culture-in-baltimore/391158/


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> No, I didn't. I apologize.


Neb,

John Kennedy Jr. died in a plane crash with his wife a few years ago. He isn't alive and well.

He died July l6, l999. {16 years ago.} The interview is therefore older than that.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> No I have not seen the wire. I saw interviews of people from the neighborhood and they are working hard to clean it up and protect it from further violence. That suggests some pride doesn't it?


Of course they want to live in a clean, safe place. I don't see that as suggesting pride, only the need to make their situation more bearable.

"Thug" is just a more acceptable way of saying the N word. It has come to be used almost exclusively for black men. See http://www.salon.com/2015/04/28/what_we_talk_about_when_we_talk_about_black_protesters_a_history_of_rightwing_dogwhistles/

If nothing else, I'm giving you a whole lot of reading to do on your flight to Chicago (the murder capital of the US - sarcasm, but plenty of people believe it).


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> People who willfully destroy? Then the word applies more to the police than to the angry, fearful young men. Read
> 
> http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-brutality-of-police-culture-in-baltimore/391158/


I certainly am aware of the gross amount of police brutality but two wrongs do not make a right. I loved that mom who found her kid throwing rocks and grabbed him and beat the hell out of him. She is now on all the shows. She is one shining star in this whole mess.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I certainly am aware of the gross amount of police brutality but two wrongs do not make a right. I loved that mom who found her kid throwing rocks and grabbed him and beat the hell out of him. She is now on all the shows. She is one shining star in this whole mess.


Oh, good, she beat the hell out of him, and now he knows how to deal with his own kids if he lives long enough to have any.

Two wrongs sometimes do make a right, but why would you expect adult behavior from kids in their teens and maybe early 20s? How many teenagers have you known who - in the middle of chaos, afraid of being beaten or even killed, with nothing to look forward to in their future - how many of these kids, whatever their skin color, will look inside and ask "Is this the right thing to be doing?" It's not expected of white adults whose soccer team just won, or lost, but it's expected of black kids whose lives could be lost at a moment's notice?

Get real.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Neb,
> 
> John Kennedy Jr. died in a plane crash with his wife a few years ago. He isn't alive and well.
> 
> He died July l6, l999. {16 years ago.} The interview is therefore older than that.


The interview was part of the Bill Maher program last Friday. Seems to be some confusion about who the guest was, but the information is current.

Incidentally, Kennedy made it clear that HE VACCINATES HIS CHILDREN.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Oh, good, she beat the hell out of him, and now he knows how to deal with his own kids if he lives long enough to have any.
> 
> Two wrongs sometimes do make a right, but why would you expect adult behavior from kids in their teens and maybe early 20s? How many teenagers have you known who - in the middle of chaos, afraid of being beaten or even killed, with nothing to look forward to in their future - how many of these kids, whatever their skin color, will look inside and ask "Is this the right thing to be doing?" It's not expected of white adults whose soccer team just won, or lost, but it's expected of black kids whose lives could be lost at a moment's notice?
> 
> Get real.


Would you have let your boy go out and riot?

Why should black kids be held to lower standards?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> Would you have let your boy go out and riot?
> 
> Why should black kids be held to lower standards?


Maybe the parents were not there when the kids got out of school and rioted - they were working one of their two or three jobs necessary to keep food on the table.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Would you have let your boy go out and riot?
> 
> Why should black kids be held to lower standards?


I can't answer that about "my (40-year-old) boy because he never wanted to do anything like that.

It's not black kids being held to lower standards. Any group living with fear, anger, no future might explode that way. It happens to be black kids in Baltimore, because that's how Baltimore is. Their voices wouldn't be heard if they held hands and sang We Shall Overcome.

Look at how Occupy was treated in several cities. They were nonviolent, not destructive. And they got pepper-sprayed and arrested anyway.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Maybe the parents were not there when the kids got out of school and rioted - they were working one of their two or three jobs necessary to keep food on the table.


To be expected, esp. when there are so few jobs available for the kids.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I can't answer that about "my (40-year-old) boy because he never wanted to do anything like that.
> 
> It's not black kids being held to lower standards. Any group living with fear, anger, no future might explode that way. It happens to be black kids in Baltimore, because that's how Baltimore is. Their voices wouldn't be heard if they held hands and sang We Shall Overcome.
> 
> Look at how Occupy was treated in several cities. They were nonviolent, not destructive. And they got pepper-sprayed and arrested anyway.


So you were fine with the looting and burning?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> So you were fine with the looting and burning?


The question is, are you fine with the murder? Property damage is bad. No one is defending it.

You, on the other hand, are blithely ignoring the horror that precipitated this event.

So, are you ok with a dead black man? If so, why?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

You jumped to a crazy conclusion. Of course I am heart sick reading all the accounts of police murder. But I have more respect for the community leaders who are trying to save the community rather than destroy it. As soon as CNN finds new hot news, the Baltimore neighborhood will be forgotten by the public but not by the residents.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> So you were fine with the looting and burning?


Not fine with it, but empathic enough to see where it comes from. If they had ever been taken seriously, they wouldn't have gone so far to get themselves heard. A big IF.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> But you are okay with millions of Black babies being murdered before they are born?


Those black, brown, white, yellow "babies" are nobody's business but their mothers'. Please mind yours instead of theirs.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> But you are okay with millions of Black babies being murdered before they are born?


Go back to reading your bible, Joey. We have heard everything you have to say on the topic and are sick of your constant hammering about it.

But, just so you know, I am definitely ok with abortion. I value women; living, sentient beings, more than a glob of cells.

And yes, I know you have a fantasy about me going to hell for this. Hell (if there were such a thing, which there is not) would be preferable to heaven (another mythical place) with the likes of you.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> But you are okay with millions of Black babies being murdered before they are born?


Oh for goodness sake you are way off argument here and your comments are totally unnecessary. Please get off your favourite hobby horse and take it home. If you wish to join in the discussion, or argument, please endeavour to say on the topic under discussion. Your intention is plainly obvious to others, you only made that comment in order to pour oil on the fires. Enough is enough, that argument you are trying to resurrect has been flogged several times. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Of course they want to live in a clean, safe place. I don't see that as suggesting pride, only the need to make their situation more bearable.
> 
> "Thug" is just a more acceptable way of saying the N word. It has come to be used almost exclusively for black men. See http://www.salon.com/2015/04/28/what_we_talk_about_when_we_talk_about_black_protesters_a_history_of_rightwing_dogwhistles/
> 
> If nothing else, I'm giving you a whole lot of reading to do on your flight to Chicago (the murder capital of the US - sarcasm, but plenty of people believe it).


I would call white kids doing the same thing thugs as well. A thug is a thug, no matter what color is involved.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I can't answer that about "my (40-year-old) boy because he never wanted to do anything like that.
> 
> It's not black kids being held to lower standards. Any group living with fear, anger, no future might explode that way. It happens to be black kids in Baltimore, because that's how Baltimore is. Their voices wouldn't be heard if they held hands and sang We Shall Overcome.
> 
> Look at how Occupy was treated in several cities. They were nonviolent, not destructive. And they got pepper-sprayed and arrested anyway.


So did MLK and see what he accomplished through non-violent means. No riots there. Gandhi's non-violent opposition broke the British hold on India.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Neb,
> 
> John Kennedy Jr. died in a plane crash with his wife a few years ago. He isn't alive and well.
> 
> He died July l6, l999. {16 years ago.} The interview is therefore older than that.


Yup! John Kennedy Jr died in a plane crash. But, Robert Kennedy Jr DIDN'T. He's alive and well, and was just interviewed by Maher recently. If you'd bothered to watch the video, you'd know that along with some other important information. Kennedy is not anti vaccine, but shares important truths about what's in them.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Yup! John Kennedy Jr died in a plane crash. But, Robert Kennedy Jr DIDN'T. He's alive and well, and was just interviewed by Maher recently. If you'd bothered to watch the video, you'd know that along with some other important information. Kennedy is not anti vaccine, but shares important truths about what's in them.


I have been watching Robt. Kennedy for years. He comes up here and lectures us and makes irresponsible statements about too many things to count. I have no respect for him. I can see where you would agree with everything he says.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> But you are okay with millions of Black babies being murdered before they are born?


Joey - you are so blinded by your own opinions. She was talking about the Police attacks and murders of teenage(usually) black young men. You twist EVERYTHING - you are over the top. So the murder of that young man, which caused the problems is to be ignored? come on, Joey.

You have gone on and on and on for years it seems. Why don't you go somewhere where you can convince someone instead of batting us over the head with your opinions, which we DON'T agree with . I would imagine that over 95% of the women here would not have an abortion. HOWEVER, l00% of us believe that it is a woman's body and her choice. We are not going to change, so why don't you preach on the streets or somewhere where you might convince someone. 
I wonder what you do this for -- you are so blinded that you don't know how you appear to us and I am sure to others.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> I would call white kids doing the same thing thugs as well. A thug is a thug, no matter what color is involved.


Unfortunately, news services don't. Check out jbandsma's graphic on Katrina.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Of course they want to live in a clean, safe place. I don't see that as suggesting pride, only the need to make their situation more bearable.
> 
> "Thug" is just a more acceptable way of saying the N word. It has come to be used almost exclusively for black men. See http://www.salon.com/2015/04/28/what_we_talk_about_when_we_talk_about_black_protesters_a_history_of_rightwing_dogwhistles/
> 
> If nothing else, I'm giving you a whole lot of reading to do on your flight to Chicago (the murder capital of the US - sarcasm, but plenty of people believe it).


I agree with the fact that thug has now taken over the same meaning as the insult which used to be the name for slaves used by their masters. I think that most of the people there have been there all their lives, there isn't much hope of anyone leaving due to the poverty and the fact that they have been pushed down all their lives by the police and others in power. I think they do show pride and I thought they were brave and honest and handled themselves with 
honesty and courage last night. Many were younger men and some women. The whole area pulled together and showed what can be accomplished by quiet strength.

I think they did more good for black neighborhoods who have been targeted by the police than has happened so far.

I believe that they have decided to join together in that district and deal with the police and the young troublemakers and work together to improve things. Hats off the them.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> So did MLK and see what he accomplished through non-violent means. No riots there. Gandhi's non-violent opposition broke the British hold on India.


If MLK, Gandhi, or Mandela were here to lead them, I might expect something different, but Al Dharpton?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Joey - you are so blinded by your own opinions. She was talking about the Police attacks and murders of teenage(usually) black young men. You twist EVERYTHING - you are over the top. So the murder of that young man, which caused the problems is to be ignored? come on, Joey.
> 
> You have gone on and on and on for years it seems. Why don't you go somewhere where you can convince someone instead of batting us over the head with your opinions, which we DON'T agree with . I would imagine that over 95% of the women here would not have an abortion. HOWEVER, l00% of us believe that it is a woman's body and her choice. We are not going to change, so why don't you preach on the streets or somewhere where you might convince someone.
> I wonder what you do this for -- you are so blinded that you don't know how you appear to us and I am sure to others.


Designer, Joey has made statements in the past about how god is going to punish he US because we allow abortions. Evidently, she thinks she has a vested interest in other women's bodies because, god. Of course, in order to believe this, she must buy into the idea that god is speaking directly to someone (her pastor, no doubt) to make it clear why he is angry and what he plans to do about it. Funny, after a couple of thousand years of silence, god is talking again, and to some obscure fundamentalist Christians. Too bad Muslims, Jews and others, god only talks to fundies.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I apologized.



Poor Purl said:


> The interview is with his son, RFK Jr.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think the Mother was concerned about her son being killed by police, as Freddie Grey and so many others were. Is that what you thought when you saw the clip? The black and the white experience are very different.



SQM said:


> I certainly am aware of the gross amount of police brutality but two wrongs do not make a right. I loved that mom who found her kid throwing rocks and grabbed him and beat the hell out of him. She is now on all the shows. She is one shining star in this whole mess.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Oh, good, she beat the hell out of him, and now he knows how to deal with his own kids if he lives long enough to have any.
> 
> Two wrongs sometimes do make a right, but why would you expect adult behavior from kids in their teens and maybe early 20s? How many teenagers have you known who - in the middle of chaos, afraid of being beaten or even killed, with nothing to look forward to in their future - how many of these kids, whatever their skin color, will look inside and ask "Is this the right thing to be doing?" It's not expected of white adults whose soccer team just won, or lost, but it's expected of black kids whose lives could be lost at a moment's notice?
> 
> Get real.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My personal feeling is that I will not discuss the vaccination issue again.



DGreen said:


> The interview was part of the Bill Maher program last Friday. Seems to be some confusion about who the guest was, but the information is current.
> 
> Incidentally, Kennedy made it clear that HE VACCINATES HIS CHILDREN.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> I think the Mother was concerned about her son being killed by police, as Freddie Grey and so many others were. Is that what you thought when you saw the clip? The black and the white experience are very different.


I thought she was both appalled at seeing her son's behavior and was scared he would be killed. It does not have to be either/or.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Our priorities are different. Can you imagine even one white child dying as these people have? I don't see it. Things need to change. IMHO



SQM said:


> I thought she was both appalled at seeing her son's behavior and was scared he would be killed. It does not have to be either/or.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I see the police as murderers who will get away with it. I also hate to witness riots. What is the problem?


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> I thought she was both appalled at seeing her son's behavior and was scared he would be killed. It does not have to be either/or.


In an interview she said "I don't want to live that way anymore, and I don't want my son to," so being appalled with his behavior as well as fear for his safety spurred her to act.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Kennedy has been talking about thimerisol for years. What I find more convincing is that Japan got rid of it for 8 years, and the incidence of autism continued to rise.


RFK has been dead for 47 years. Has he been speaking for years through a medium?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> Our priorities are different. Can you imagine even one white child dying as these people have? I don't see it. Things need to change. IMHO


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Oh for goodness sake you are way off argument here and your comments are totally unnecessary. Please get off your favourite hobby horse and take it home. If you wish to join in the discussion, or argument, please endeavour to say on the topic under discussion. Your intention is plainly obvious to others, you only made that comment in order to pour oil on the fires. Enough is enough, that argument you are trying to resurrect has been flogged several times. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


I'd say at least l00 times. It gets rather boring. She does it to get under our skin and I admit she managed to do that to me. I just wish we could just put her posts in a topic where people only watch if they want to. Not going to happen as she has nothing better to do.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I have been watching Robt. Kennedy for years. He comes up here and lectures us and makes irresponsible statements about too many things to count. I have no respect for him. I can see where you would agree with everything he says.


You know? I find it amusing that you would automatically assume that I "agree with everything he says". I hadn't heard of ANYTHING that he's said until I listened to this interview. Your statement caused me to " google" "Robert Kennedy Jr, lecturing Canada", and what came up, was that he is against the Keystone Pipeline. So, if that's what you're referring to when you say he makes " irresponsible statements", I guess you'd be right in assuming I'd agree with him. The Keystone Pipeline is a terrible idea that will result in dire consequences, far into the future. A LOT of people agree with that. I can see where you would not.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Yup! John Kennedy Jr died in a plane crash. But, Robert Kennedy Jr DIDN'T. He's alive and well, and was just interviewed by Maher recently. If you'd bothered to watch the video, you'd know that along with some other important information. Kennedy is not anti vaccine, but shares important truths about what's in them.


I'm glad to hear it.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Joey - you are so blinded by your own opinions. She was talking about the Police attacks and murders of teenage(usually) black young men. You twist EVERYTHING - you are over the top. So the murder of that young man, which caused the problems is to be ignored? come on, Joey.
> 
> You have gone on and on and on  for years it seems. Why don't you go somewhere where you can convince someone instead of batting us over the head with your opinions, which we DON'T agree with . I would imagine that over 95% of the women here would not have an abortion. HOWEVER, l00% of us believe that it is a woman's body and her choice. We are not going to change, so why don't you preach on the streets or somewhere where you might convince someone.
> I wonder what you do this for -- you are so blinded that you don't know how you appear to us and I am sure to others.


100% of us do NOT agree that abortion is "a woman's body and her choice". Abortion takes the life of a living human being. Abortion is the violent murder of an innocent baby.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The Thug, Freddie Gray, had spinal and neck surgery about a week before he was arrested. He should have been home recovering from the surgery not selling drugs. He had a settlement from an insurance company because of a car accident. Maybe if he would not have resisted the police, things would have turned out different. If the surgery had not healed completely, it may be a contributing factor in his death.
> 
> FYI: as long as you complain about a poor thug that may be killed by the police, if he/she is committing a crime or resisting arrest, I will remind you of the millions and millions of BABIES that are murdered just for being inconvenient.


The amount of compassion you display is overwhelming.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You know? I find it amusing that you would automatically assume that I "agree with everything he says". I hadn't heard of ANYTHING that he's said until I listened to this interview. Your statement caused me to " google" "Robert Kennedy Jr, lecturing Canada", and what came up, was that he is against the Keystone Pipeline. So, if that's what you're referring to when you say he makes " irresponsible statements", I guess you'd be right in assuming I'd agree with him. The Keystone Pipeline is a terrible idea that will result in dire consequences, far into the future. A LOT of people agree with that. I can see where you would not.


You are putting words in my mouth. I don't agree that it is good for the US and if I was an American I would vote against it if that was an option. Robert Kennedy Jr. is someone I don't admire. My right .I have met him and I found him arrogant and superior to "these Canadians who don't know what they are talking about" - he was speaking to 
a ski group that he organizes every year. Top stars go and he gave a speech which was rude and a showed that he was arrogant and thought we were a 2nd class country. I couldn't care less what he fights for or against. I want nothing to do with him. Some people got up and left. It is a shame as they raised a lot of money for good causes. This was quite some time ago (years) and since then he seems to have been reined in or realized what he said and how insulting he was. Each winter he hosts a ski weekend for the 
Stars' in Banff which does raise money for Charity. Not much was printed about it and it was kept pretty quiet but the group we were with all still feel the same way about him. I thought his Father would have been a good President and saw his assassination on TV. It must be hard to be a Kennedy but he sure didn't make a good impression to those of us who were Canadian. We get tired of being talked down to sometimes. We are well aware that some Americans think we don't know much about anything. (I will say that I certainly haven't found that here, but some of the things said by tourists boggle the mind)
That was one example. I know he is interested in the environment but I have always felt that there are places in the United States that needs attention regarding the environment there..

As far as the key stone pipeline is concerned. I have never liked it even though I lived in Alberta. I visited Ft. MacMurray and the tar sands and was horrified at what had happened there to the land. I guess being a liberal means I don't like 
what happens in places like that or what is done with the oil gas or oilsand. It, however has certainly helped our economy and the US and other countries want it. I have mixed feelings about it all. Certainly would be against the pipeline if I was an American.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You know? I find it amusing that you would automatically assume that I "agree with everything he says". I hadn't heard of ANYTHING that he's said until I listened to this interview. Your statement caused me to " google" "Robert Kennedy Jr, lecturing Canada", and what came up, was that he is against the Keystone Pipeline. So, if that's what you're referring to when you say he makes " irresponsible statements", I guess you'd be right in assuming I'd agree with him. The Keystone Pipeline is a terrible idea that will result in dire consequences, far into the future. A LOT of people agree with that. I can see where you would not.


And here I've been confused about RFK speaking for years. Completely forgot there was an RFK, Jr...


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


on and on and on and on -- over and over and over and over.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> 100% of us do NOT agree that abortion is "a woman's body and her choice". Abortion takes the life of a living human being. Abortion is the violent murder of an innocent baby.


 :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> I see the police as murderers who will get away with it. I also hate to witness riots. What is the problem?


I agree - I think they will once again get away with it. They are starting to make statements already. A 'friend ' of one of them (Police man)was just on CNN with a hiddenface and he says the boy wasn't mistreated and on and on.

Looking at it from here this might be the beginning of a huge uprising and demands for improvements all over the US. Cant really blame them. They are marching in NewYork and Boston and I believe a couple of other cities. It seems they have had enough. It scares me even watching it .


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Uu


joeysomma said:


> The Thug, Freddie Gray, had spinal and neck surgery about a week before he was arrested. He should have been home recovering from the surgery not selling drugs. He had a settlement from an insurance company because of a car accident. Maybe if he would not have resisted the police, things would have turned out different. If the surgery had not healed completely, it may be a contributing factor in his death.
> 
> FYI: as long as you complain about a poor thug that may be killed by the police, if he/she is committing a crime or resisting arrest, I will remind you of the millions and millions of BABIES that are murdered just for being inconvenient.


Your information appears to be baloney.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-gray-settlement-20150429-story.html


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> 100% of us do NOT agree that abortion is "a woman's body and her choice". Abortion takes the life of a living human being. Abortion is the violent murder of an innocent baby.


I stand corrected - I was thinking of those of us on this thread who are liberals and believe in women's choice. I forgot that you are not a liberal. I should have remembered.

-----------
how is DIL doing? another week gone by.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I apologized.


I know. I wrote my correction before I saw the earlier one. Sorry.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Uu
> 
> Your information appears to be baloney.
> http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-gray-settlement-20150429-story.html


True, not true, what's the difference? It allows her to spread her dogwhistle message while pretending to care for black fetuses. She cares about the unborn, but in her eyes the born are thugs. I wonder whether she's capable of any feeling for living, breathing human beings who happen to be black..


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> The Thug, Freddie Gray, had spinal and neck surgery about a week before he was arrested. He should have been home recovering from the surgery not selling drugs. He had a settlement from an insurance company because of a car accident. Maybe if he would not have resisted the police, things would have turned out different. If the surgery had not healed completely, it may be a contributing factor in his death.
> 
> FYI: as long as you complain about a poor thug that may be killed by the police, if he/she is committing a crime or resisting arrest, I will remind you of the millions and millions of BABIES that are murdered just for being inconvenient.


Perhaps you would like to inform us where you learned he was committing a crime, what that crime was, and where there is any record of him resisting arrest. Even the police say he was arrested without resistance. Absent is any information on what "crime" he committed except the crime of being black. Also, the claim he had spinal surgery is a right-wing, Faux news fabrication. Never happened.

Babies? Abort them if unwanted. Quite simple, really. Most people understand and approve of abortion. You're the freak here.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> True, not true, what's the difference? It allows her to spread her dogwhistle message while pretending to care for black fetuses. She cares about the unborn, but in her eyes the born are thugs. I wonder whether she's capable of any feeling for living, breathing human beings who happen to be black..


Answer:
1. None
2. You're right
3. No kidding!
4. No, "but I'm not a racist"


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> 100% of us do NOT agree that abortion is "a woman's body and her choice". Abortion takes the life of a living human being. Abortion is the violent murder of an innocent baby.


But you ARE in the minority.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> Uu
> 
> Your information appears to be baloney.
> http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-gray-settlement-20150429-story.html


No surprise there.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Did anyone see Cruz speaking about the Riots about 5 minutes ago on CNN? He said President Obama has once again failed miserably with dealing with the Baltimore situation. What a creep.
been responsible for the riots or words to that effect. I don't want to quote him but one of the guests on CNN was in the group discussing. She went to Harvard and implied she was not proud that he was a fellow Harvard graduate. I am hoping it will be mentioned again so that I can quote his words. CNN - Don Lemon is the host. Post if any of you see it.

The things he said were ridiculous. All the panel was laughing at him.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I feel we must all take a stand. This is totally inappropriate and will not be tolerated.



SQM said:


> I see the police as murderers who will get away with it. I also hate to witness riots. What is the problem?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Perhaps you would like to inform us where you learned he was committing a crime, what that crime was, and where there is any record of him resisting arrest. Even the police say he was arrested without resistance. Absent is any information on what "crime" he committed except the crime of being black. Also, the claim he had spinal surgery is a right-wing, Faux news fabrication. Never happened.
> 
> Babies? Abort them if unwanted. Quite simple, really. Most people understand and approve of abortion. You're the freak here.


You know her sources--- all the right-wing rags, websites, blogs, TV/radio shows, . . . . . . . . . .she doesn't like investigative reporting or main-stream media. Actually, she doesn't like reporting--just lies.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Even accepting your statements, selling drugs is not subject to the death penalty, especially without benefit of conviction.

And I do not accept all your statements as true. You got nothing.



joeysomma said:


> The Thug, Freddie Gray, had spinal and neck surgery about a week before he was arrested. He should have been home recovering from the surgery not selling drugs. He had a settlement from an insurance company because of a car accident. Maybe if he would not have resisted the police, things would have turned out different. If the surgery had not healed completely, it may be a contributing factor in his death.
> 
> FYI: as long as you complain about a poor thug that may be killed by the police, if he/she is committing a crime or resisting arrest, I will remind you of the millions and millions of BABIES that are murdered just for being inconvenient.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> 100% of us do NOT agree that abortion is "a woman's body and her choice". Abortion takes the life of a living human being. Abortion is the violent murder of an innocent baby.


You forgot to mention this is your opinion....not everyone's.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The Kennedy charisma has disappeared in recent generations. Only exception I can think of is Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg, ambassador of Japan.



MaidInBedlam said:


> And here I've been confused about RFK speaking for years. Completely forgot there was an RFK, Jr...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't hear anyone but you.



Designer1234 said:


> on and on and on and on -- over and over and over and over.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for providing the link to prove the facts. I must admit I just trust my judgement and ignore everything she says.



cookiequeen said:


> Uu
> 
> Your information appears to be baloney.
> http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-gray-settlement-20150429-story.html


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> I don't hear anyone but you.


I am not sure what you are saying Dame. I was talking about Joey and her obsession with abortion. I should have hit quote reply.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> But you ARE in the minority.


NEB knew what I meant. She likes to take us on.

Well ladies, I am heading to bed with my book. I am a bit weary. Spent the morning at the Craft group at the seniors center, then went for groceries and visited with our son so I am wiped. The time at home was spent watching the news. Worrisome. see you all tomorrow.

SQM - don't get too tired. When do you move into your new place? On May lst? Good luck.
***************
By the way, if anyone finds out exactly what Cruz said about President Obama, how about posting it. I thought it was very nasty , the part I heard. I searched it but couldn't find anything but a headline - not the actual statements.

***************


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I just meant I ignore anything joey says because it's always the same old. I hear you loud and clear because you always have something interesting to add. Sorry for confusion.



Designer1234 said:


> I am not sure what you are saying Dame. I was talking about Joey and her obsession with abortion. I should have hit quote reply.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> But in EVERY abortion someone is MURDERED. That is a FACT!


your opinion - over and over and over.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> But you ARE in the minority.


Minority of one, I believe. Although there might be others.Whatever - we are certainly the majority. She loves to take us on.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The whole purpose of an abortion is to kill the baby. And you say that is only an opinion.
> 
> Is the baby alive or dead? I bet you will not answer.
> 
> And it is a baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Joey, I would not have an abortion -I do believe that every woman should have control of her body.- however you have been posting about this one subject as long as I can remember on these threads. We have HEARD your message. We don't need to hear it over and over again.

YOu actually are making an a-s of your self and you are not convincing us. If anything you are making us more and more against what you say. Find some one else to lecture to.

We


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Answer:
> 1. None
> 2. You're right
> 3. No kidding!
> 4. No, "but I'm not a racist"


I was very careful not to use the R word, but you got it anyway. It's becoming more and more obvious.


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## admin (Jan 12, 2011)

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