# How many do you get?



## Nanswa (Jul 20, 2011)

I'm making a baby sweater and don't get the correct stitch count after doing the first increase row. 

Start with 50 stitches and follow these instructions: K5 *M1 K2, repeat from * until 5 stitches left, K5 (21 inc.) for 71 stitches.

I get 64 stitches! I've even written it out on paper and I cannot get 71 stitches. Can anybody get 71? If so, please tell me what I'm doing wrong. Thanks!


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

how are you doing your M1? are you sure there are 21 increases?

M1 K2 x 21 is 63 plus your 10 border stitches is 73

what pattern are you doing?


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## fergablu2 (Apr 30, 2011)

How are you doing your increase? If you are knitting in front and back rather than doing a make one increase between stitches, your count won't be correct. If you prefer knitting in front and back, changing the intructions from "M1, K2" to "Kfb, K1", should work out.


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## CaroleD53 (Aug 7, 2012)

Are you making one by lifting the bar between the stitches and knitting into the back? It should work. You have 50 stitches and seem to have 5 at each end for bands. That leaves you 40 for main part. You increase after first 5 ( 1 increase) then after each 2 stitches (20 increases). 50+21 =71.


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## jvallas (Jul 16, 2013)

Agreeing to most of the above. Just adding clarification that each set will replace 2 stitches with 3 (20 times). Somehow, I'm getting 70, not 71.


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## nhauf001 (Jan 18, 2011)

well if I read it right, 50 stitches minus the 10 stitches (5 on each end) leaves you 40, and you divide by 2 (because you are adding one every 2 stitches that give you 20, but you need to add 1 as you start with a M1, which gives you 21, so . . . 50 +21 is 71, I think the pattern is right. maybe you need some stitch markers, I would at least mark off the 5 stitches at each end, it might help. -- good luck!


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## jvallas (Jul 16, 2013)

nhauf001 said:


> _ you will make one more after you knit the last 2 in the 40, which gives you 21, _...


you answered my question.


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## MrsMurdog (Apr 16, 2013)

I come up with 70.

K5 (M1 K2)20 times K5

5 + 60 + 5 = 70

if you K5 (M1 K2)20 times M1 K5 = 71.

Is this what everyone else gets?


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

In order to have 71 stitches, the M1 is done by lifting the horizontal bar between the 2 sts.
I come up with 71 sts with the increases done just as it states -- M1.

Check the book/pattern for common abbreviations.


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## fergablu2 (Apr 30, 2011)

MrsMurdog said:


> I come up with 70.
> 
> K5 (M1 K2)20 times K5
> 
> ...


Yes, it does appear that there is a mistake in the pattern.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

MrsMurdog said:


> I come up with 70.
> 
> K5 (M1 K2)20 times K5
> 
> ...


There are 20 repeats of M1, K2 --- with the final stitch of M1 before the final last 5 of K5.
Just follow the instructions --- K5 *M1 K2, repeat from * until 5 stitches left, K5


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## jvallas (Jul 16, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> There are 20 repeats of M1, K2 --- with the final stitch of M1 before the final last 5 of K5.


But why does everyone say there's a final M1? Not written that way.*

* or is the pattern different from what I see on the first post?


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

jvallas said:


> But why does everyone say there's a final M1? Not written that way.


Just follow the instructions --- K5 *M1 K2, repeat from * until 5 stitches left, K5
Because the instructions state so ----
You do the repeat up to the last five sts, you end in the repeat where you end.
Not all repeats in every pattern will end with the completed instructions of between * and *.
Sometimes they end midway. This is one of those times.


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## jvallas (Jul 16, 2013)

But it will end with k2, then the k5. I don't see why you'd start again with another m1 (except to make it come up with a count of 71). Instruction should say *m1, k2* till last 5 stitches, m1, k5.


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## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

K5 *M1 K2, repeat from * until 5 stitches left, K5 

In order to make it come out right you have to do another m1 before the last k5. 
What pattern is this, a link would help, if not a link at least a name so maybe we can chase it down. There might be errata.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

jvallas said:


> But it will end with k2, then the k5. I don't see why you'd start again with another m1 (except to make it come up with a count of 71). Instruction should say *m1, k2* till last 5 stitches, m1, k5.


Yah, it could be worded that way too. ;-) 
I am just so use to just following instructions written this way.
This is an example of how patterns can be written different ways and there is still confusion.
If I am unsure of a final M1, when I get to the last 5 sts, I count the stitches. If I would be off by 1, by NOT doing the final M1, Then I know to finish the repeat with the M1 and proceed to do the last K5.
Then I also know that throughout the pattern (if there are repeated rows) that this is the proper way to do the row to get count.

But you also have to take into account the pattern requirements.
If it is a gradual increase, then the repeat ending may/will change - not be the same on every increased row.
The next increased row may indeed end with a completed 2 part repeat of M1, k2.
Next time it may end at the M1 again before the final K5.

But to answer the OP's main question --- As the OP is getting way too few sts, I believe the OP is doing a KFB instead of the M1 as the pattern is instructing to do.


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## MASHEPP (Mar 13, 2011)

I'm lost here. Why would there be a difference in number of stitches if the increase is done KFB or M1? This doesn't compute to me. I always though an increase is an increase no matter how it is done. What am I missing?


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## CaroleD53 (Aug 7, 2012)

The pattern maybe doesn't mention the last increase but it does say 21 increases so they need to be done to get the stitch count correct.


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## patringo (Feb 11, 2014)

i agreee with grumpygramma and jvallas

for 71 stitches to make it come out right you have to do another m1 before the last k5. if you leave that out you will have 70 stitches. if you have way too few stitches then you need to check out the way you are doing the increase. 
would need to know the subsequent row stitch count needed to determine if 70 or 71 stitches is correct.

good luck.


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## CaroleD53 (Aug 7, 2012)

MASHEPP said:


> I'm lost here. Why would there be a difference in number of stitches if the increase is done KFB or M1? This doesn't compute to me. I always though an increase is an increase no matter how it is done. What am I missing?


KFB will use up one of your stitches. M1 is just using the horizontal bar between your stitches.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

MASHEPP said:


> I'm lost here. Why would there be a difference in number of stitches if the increase is done KFB or M1? This doesn't compute to me. I always though an increase is an increase no matter how it is done. What am I missing?


there is no difference AS LONG as you knit 2 and then increase.

since the pattern doesn't say kfb, I don't know why anyone would do that in this instance.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

MASHEPP said:


> I'm lost here. Why would there be a difference in number of stitches if the increase is done KFB or M1? This doesn't compute to me. I always though an increase is an increase no matter how it is done. What am I missing?





CaroleD53 said:


> KFB will use up one of your stitches. M1 is just using the horizontal bar between your stitches.


 :thumbup: 
Also the KFB is not quite invisible as the M1 is more of an invisible increase.

Let's use just a 10 stitch swatch (where the | is the stitch):

.....|.......|.......|.......|.......|.......|.......|.......|.......|.......|
...KFB........K2........KFB.......K2........KFB........K2........KFB =14

........|.....|........|.....|........|.....|........|.....|........|.....|
.M1.....K2....M1...K2....M1....K2....M1....K2....M1....K2=15


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## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

patringo said:


> i agreee with grumpygramma and jvallas
> 
> for 71 stitches to make it come out right you have to do another m1 before the last k5. if you leave that out you will have 70 stitches. if you have way too few stitches then you need to check out the way you are doing the increase.
> would need to know the subsequent row stitch count needed to determine if 70 or 71 stitches is correct.
> ...


Knowing something more about the pattern would be nice. Maybe the 71 sts is in error and the rest is correct. Context! Unless the pattern went fubar because of it I'd choose one way or the other and if I didn't inc but needed that extra st when I got there I would do an inc then or if I made it and didn't need it then I would dec. Of course if I were so inclined I could try to determine how many sts the next row needs and base a decision on that. This is all assuming the instructions as originally posted are verbatim from the pattern which may or may not be the case. We need to know what the pattern is. I know, I expect too much.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

jvallas said:


> But it will end with k2, then the k5. I don't see why you'd start again with another m1 (except to make it come up with a count of 71). Instruction should say *m1, k2* till last 5 stitches, m1, k5.


Is the initial count of 50 correct because I am coming up with 71 also. M1,K2 is down over 40 stitches which gives you an increase of 21. HMMM I think the initial count is off.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

CaroleD53 said:


> KFB will use up one of your stitches. M1 is just using the horizontal bar between your stitches.


KFB only uses half a stitch. You knit in the front one stitch on your right needle now you knit in the back and there is your second stitch.


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## Nanswa (Jul 20, 2011)

Okay let me start by saying that I do increases by knitting front and back and that's the way I've always done them. This is the first time that the stitch count is wrong using that method. As long as you're adding a stitch, what's the difference. I'll try doing a lifted increase and see what happens. The pattern is Unisex Baby Sweater and is available on Ravelry (free pattern). Thanks everyone for your time and your help. If I have more trouble, I'll be back!


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## Nanswa (Jul 20, 2011)

I've tried the lifted increase and it makes a hole. Maybe I'm not doing it right. KFB is just easier for me and as I said that's the way I've always increased. I think I'll watch a Youtube video or two on how to do a lifted increase. Thanks again!


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

Nanswa said:


> Okay let me start by saying that I do increases by knitting front and back and that's the way I've always done them. This is the first time that the stitch count is wrong using that method. As long as you're adding a stitch, what's the difference. I'll try doing a lifted increase and see what happens. The pattern is Unisex Baby Sweater and is available on Ravelry (free pattern). Thanks everyone for your time and your help. If I have more trouble, I'll be back!


just be sure you count two stitches before you increase, no matter how you do it.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

Nanswa said:


> I've tried the lifted increase and it makes a hole. Maybe I'm not doing it right. KFB is just easier for me and as I said that's the way I've always increased. I think I'll watch a Youtube video or two on how to do a lifted increase. Thanks again!


the lifted increase will leave a hole if you don't knit into the back of it


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

MASHEPP said:


> I'm lost here. Why would there be a difference in number of stitches if the increase is done KFB or M1? This doesn't compute to me. I always though an increase is an increase no matter how it is done. What am I missing?


We've been over and over this. Here's how it works. You K in the front ( same as M1) then you K in the back that is K1 and then you K the next stitch that's K2. Many designers will tell you to make your increases any way you want. That says to me make them any way you want.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Nanswa said:


> Okay let me start by saying that I do increases by knitting front and back and that's the way I've always done them. This is the first time that the stitch count is wrong using that method. As long as you're adding a stitch, what's the difference. I'll try doing a lifted increase and see what happens. The pattern is Unisex Baby Sweater and is available on Ravelry (free pattern). Thanks everyone for your time and your help. If I have more trouble, I'll be back!


Stitch count will not be wrong by using KFB. Here's how it works. K in front. that's the same as Make one. Now you knit in back that's K1 then you knit the next stitch that's K2.

There are 2 legs on every stitch. You are using one leg for your M1 and the other leg for your first K1 and then the Next stitch your your K2 You are still only using 2 stitches to come up with 3 after the increase.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

galaxycraft said:


> :thumbup:
> Also the KFB is not quite invisible as the M1 is more of an invisible increase.
> 
> Let's use just a 10 stitch swatch (where the | is the stitch):
> ...


if you kfb, then you will only knit 1 in between. As long as you make 1 stitch and knit 2 then it works. NOT kfb and then knit 2, that is doing m1, k3


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Nanswa said:


> I've tried the lifted increase and it makes a hole. Maybe I'm not doing it right. KFB is just easier for me and as I said that's the way I've always increased. I think I'll watch a Youtube video or two on how to do a lifted increase. Thanks again!


Twist the stitch and it will not produce the hole.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

chickkie said:


> if you kfb, then you will only knit 1 in between. As long as you make 1 stitch and knit 2 then it works. NOT kfb and then knit 2, that is doing m1, k3


But we are here to figure out the pattern as written, not re-write it to suit the KFB method of increase. ;-)
WR and many of us have danced this dance before ---- I am out of here.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

chickkie said:


> if you kfb, then you will only knit 1 in between. As long as you make 1 stitch and knit 2 then it works. NOT kfb and then knit 2, that is doing m1, k3


Thanks Chickkie I couldn't figure it out. Tired tonight.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

chickkie said:


> if you kfb, then you will only knit 1 in between. As long as you make 1 stitch and knit 2 then it works. NOT kfb and then knit 2, that is doing m1, k3


That is re-writting the pattern to suit the type of increase someone WANTS to use, rather than intended by the designer.
I am saying that you CAN NOT just all willy nilly change the type of increase without changing something else.
Many people do indeed change the type of increase and then follow the rest of the row directions step by step and wonder WHY the stitch count is off. I showed how it can and will be off.
Have a good day/night all.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

galaxycraft said:


> But we are here to figure out the pattern as written, not re-write it to suit the KFB method of increase. ;-)
> WR and many of us have danced this dance before ---- I am out of here.


except that the OP says that is the increase she uses. I have danced this dance before too.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

chickkie said:


> except that the OP says that is the increase she uses. I have danced this dance before too.


Exactly -- she changed the increase type of an M1 to KFB and expected the row to come out correctly.
For which she/he told us after the Original First Post.


Nanswa said:


> I'm making a baby sweater and don't get the correct stitch count after doing the first increase row.
> 
> Start with 50 stitches and follow these instructions: K5 *M1 K2, repeat from * until 5 stitches left, K5 (21 inc.) for 71 stitches.
> 
> *I get 64 stitches!* I've even written it out on paper and *I cannot get 71 stitches*. Can anybody get 71? If so, *please tell me what I'm doing wrong*. Thanks!


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

chickkie said:


> except that the OP says that is the increase she uses. I have danced this dance before too.


We still haven't found out if the 50 stitches at the beginning are correct. Have we.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> Exactly -- she changed the increase type of an M1 to KFB.
> For which she/he told us after the Original First Post.


It's like the old math doesn't make much difference how you arrive at the correct answer it's that you arrive.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> We still haven't found out if the 50 stitches at the beginning are correct. Have we.


50 is correct if the M1 is used as intended by the designer.
50+21=71


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> 50 is correct if the M1 is used as intended by the designer.


But you are adding a M1 after the K2 to arrive at that. I've NEVER had to change things up between * * as another poster mentioned.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> But you are adding a M1 after the K2 to arrive at that. I've NEVER had to change things up between * * as another poster mentioned.


yah yah yah --- you never had to do this or that or this or that or this...........................

Just because you don't do it, doesn't mean it is right.

I guess you have never run into a pattern were you have NEVER COMPLETELY FINISHED THE REPEATED SECTION *-* (where you stopped mid-stream) to get to the last # of sts to finish with say the K5.
You need to do more patterns.
Bye bye.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

no matter which way it is done, as long as there are 2 stitches between the increases it will work


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> yah yah yah --- you never had to do this or that or this or that or this...........................
> 
> Just because you don't do it, doesn't mean it is right.
> 
> ...


So when do you deviate from work * * x number of times? And what clues should I look for to know that time?


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## Nanswa (Jul 20, 2011)

I have another question for those that didn't get disgusted and leave the discussion. Is there a special way of doing the Ml increase if doing it in garter stitch? I did the increases by picking up the loops in the row below and knitting in the back of the stitch but I got a row of holes which is what I thought would happen. I really want to make this sweater but frustration is setting in!


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Nanswa said:


> I have another question for those that didn't get disgusted and leave the discussion. Is there a special way of doing the Ml increase if doing it in garter stitch? I did the increases by picking up the loops in the row below and knitting in the back of the stitch but I got a row of holes which is what I thought would happen. I really want to make this sweater but frustration is setting in!


Can you post a link to the pattern at least.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

Nanswa said:


> I have another question for those that didn't get disgusted and leave the discussion. Is there a special way of doing the Ml increase if doing it in garter stitch? I did the increases by picking up the loops in the row below and knitting in the back of the stitch but I got a row of holes which is what I thought would happen. I really want to make this sweater but frustration is setting in!


if you do the lifted increase like that you have knit into the back of the stitch when you pick it up and put it on your needle. If you don't do that you will get a hole.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

http://www.knittingfool.com/Reference/KF_Abbreviations.aspx
Page 8. Different References cited.

*M1 - Make 1 stitch Make one increase* =
Make 1 by lifting thread before next stitch, and working into the back of it.

Lift running thread between the stitch just worked and the next stitch, and knit into the back of this thread.

Make 1 by picking up the loop that lies between the stitch just worked and the following stitch and work into the back of it.

Make 1 stitch by picking up horizontal loop lying before next stitch and knitting into the back of loop.

Wrong side rows: Lift running thread between the stitch just worked and the next stitch, and purl into the back of this thread.

Lift the running thread onto the tip of the left-hand needle so that it lies over the needle from the left, behind to the right, in front; then the right-hand needle is inserted into the back of this thread to knit a new stitch. 
The stitch is worked like a k1-b as a twisted stitch.

Pick up horizontal strand of yarn lying between stitch just worked and next stitch and knit into back of it. 
Insert left needle from back to front under the bar between the stitch just worked and the next stitch and knit this strand through the front.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

http://www.knittingfool.com/Reference/KF_Abbreviations.aspx
Page 7. Different References Cited.

inc1 - increase one =

Work into front and back of a stitch.

Increase one stitch; knit into the back of the stitch in the row below first stitch on the left-hand needle (inserting needle point from the top down into the purled head of stitch); 
then knit into the front (or back if preferred) of the first stitch on left-hand needle.

Insert left-hand needle from front into the stitch in the row below the first stitch on right-hand needle; 
pick up right-hand loop of this stitch onto left-hand needle and knit into the front of this loop.

Knit one in row below, then knit the stitch on needle.

Wrong side rows:
Purl into the top loop of the stitch in the row below first stitch on left-hand needle (inserting needle point downward from front, not through the stitch from behind); then purl into the first stitch on left-hand needle. (This increase is used when the stitch in the row below is a purl stitch.)

Purl one in row below, then purl the stitch on needle.

.....................

So ----
Your quote:
"*I did the increases by picking up the loops in the row below* and knitting in the back of the stitch but I got a row of holes which is what I thought would happen. I really want to make this sweater but frustration is setting in!"

Why are you so determined to change the type of increase? Just curious ...

No, picking up the horizontal bar between stitches *M1* does not matter whether you are doing stockinette stitch or garter stitch.

The pattern says M1. ---- Not KFB. Not Inc1. Not Inc. Not K1B (Knit 1 below).
I am not scolding, Just trying to get you back on track.
How to do the M1.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

How to do the M1.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> How to do the M1.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## run4fittness (May 22, 2011)

Well, that has been correctly answered. I see there are a few folks who go the long way around to get the count like I do! Good to know!


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

jvallas said:


> Agreeing to most of the above. Just adding clarification that each set will replace 2 stitches with 3 (20 times). Somehow, I'm getting 70, not 71.


Me too and why does the OP keep leaving instead of getting answers to her questions and where is a link to the pattern.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

run4fittness said:


> Well, that has been correctly answered. I see there are a few folks who go the long way around to get the count like I do! Good to know!


To whom are you replying?


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Are we sure she should have 71 stitches at the end of this increase row? Why does she keep leaving and why won't she post a link to the pattern. She said she got 63 stitches after the increases. How is that possible?


I don't need the actual proof --- I am not guessing as to the correctness of the pattern.
I, and a few others, are going by what she had posted:


Nanswa said:


> I'm making a baby sweater and don't get the correct stitch count after doing the first increase row.
> 
> *Start with 50 stitches* and follow these instructions: K5 **M1 K2, repeat from * until 5 stitches left*, K5 (*21 inc.*) for *71 stitches*.
> 
> ...


Yes, a few of us have come up to the correct stitch count of the 21 increases to get the final 71 st count, when the M1 is done as intended.
We have explained this and how to achieve it.
It is up to her now.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> Yes, a few of us have come up to the correct stitch count of the 21 increases to get the final 71 st count, when the M1 is done as intended.
> We have explained this and how to achieve it.
> It is up to her now.


I still don't think you are following the pattern as written. It says per the OP that you do * M1 k2* and repeat that until you have 5 stitches left then K5. Where does it say to repeat * * until you have 5 stitches BUT where is the M1 you keep talking about written in the pattern before the K5.

Do you per chance know the pattern she is talking about?


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> I still don't think you are following the pattern as written. It says per the OP that you do * M1 k2* and repeat that until you have 5 stitches left then K5. Where does it say to repeat * * until you have 5 stitches BUT where is the M1 you keep talking about written in the pattern before the K5.
> 
> Do you per chance know the pattern she is talking about?


rrrrrrrrrrr ---- I really hate the Ravelry Search function. 
I finally found the pattern with a Google search instead.
http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/unisex-baby-sweater
From pattern --
M1: Bring the tip of the left hand needle under the strand between stitches, from back to front. 
Knit this stitch through the front loop making sure that it twists.
Cast on 50 sts....
Work 12 garter stitch ridges for the yoke with the first two buttonholes worked on rows 5 and 21 between ridges 2 & 3 and 10 & 11. 
You will also be increasing the yoke like this:
Inc. on row 8: K5 *M1 K2, repeat from * until 5 stitches left, K5 (21 inc.) for 71 sts.
Inc. on row 16: K5 *M1 K2, repeat from * until 6 stitches left, K6 (31 inc.) for 102 sts.
Inc. on row 24: K6 *M1 K2, repeat from * until 6 stitches left, K6 (46 inc.) for 148 sts.
..............................

It all works out correctly.
No questions or remarks about errors or problems in the comments section.
There are 50 projects listed.


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## laceluvr (Feb 16, 2012)

jvallas said:


> But why does everyone say there's a final M1? Not written that way.*
> 
> * or is the pattern different from what I see on the first post?


jvallas is right, you should end with a K2 before the last 5 edge sts as that is how it is written between the asterisks, unless the OP typed the 2nd * in the wrong place.

Edited:
Sorry folks, I actually worked the 1st row of the pattern as written. I got 20 increases with 5 edge sts on either side. When I got to the last K2, there were exactly 5 sts left to knit for the edge. The total count was 70 (not 71). Counted it twice & yes, I did the M1's by lifting the bar between sts & knit thru the back loop as you're supposed to.

If there should be 21 increases & 71 sts, then the pattern instructions omitted the last M1 before the 5 edge sts.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

laceluvr said:


> jvallas is right, you should end with a K2 before the last 5 edge sts as that is how it is written between the asterisks, unless the OP typed the 2nd * in the wrong place.


No --- 
*The Pattern Is Correct*.
K5, 
*M1,K2 twenty times = 60 {produced 20 increases}
But the pattern states 21 increases.
So in order to do the 21 increases --- you HAVE to do a final M1 before the final K5 border.

K5 border = 5
Repeat done 20 times = 60
M1 = 1
K5 border = 5
5+60+1+5= 71

To re-word it ----
K5, {M1,K2} 20 times, M1, K5.

K5, 
{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2}
M1
K5
Equals 21 M1 Increases.

In a word Document (as it doesn't have the space here on the forum); 
lay this all out and go from the outsides to the center.

You have the K5's at the ends, 
the next ones in towards the center is the M1's, then the K2, Then M1's, etc right on through to the center stitch.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

laceluvr said:


> Edited:
> Sorry folks, I actually worked the 1st row of the pattern as written. I got 20 increases with 5 edge sts on either side. When I got to the last K2, there were exactly 5 sts left to knit for the edge. The total count was 70 (not 71). Counted it twice & yes, I did the M1's by lifting the bar between sts & knit thru the back loop as you're supposed to.
> 
> If there should be 21 increases & 71 sts, then the pattern instructions omitted the last M1 before the 5 edge sts.


I guess you are another one that has never run into a pattern repeat where it did not complete all the way through.
It says to repeat it with 21 M1 increases up to the last 5 sts - Knit those last 5.
If 20 M1 increases gets you to the last 5 sts (Complete 2 part repeat of M1,K2), 
then you finish the repeated section by doing an additional M1, there is your 21 M1 increases.
You are doing the repeat 20 1/2 times.

It amazes me that not many folks have ever heard of a "partial" repeat section being done.
How many have actually heard (read) folks say ---- I don't have enough stitches to complete the repeat?
Raise your hands ---- Come on, don't be shy.
Ah! Light Bulb!


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## laceluvr (Feb 16, 2012)

WindingRoad said:


> But you are adding a M1 after the K2 to arrive at that. I've NEVER had to change things up between * * as another poster mentioned.


I agree with WindingRoad & jvallas...you can't just add another M1 before the last 5 edge sts. That's not how the pattern is written. If you should have 71 sts & 21 increases, then the instructions, as written, OMITTED the last M1 before the edge sts.

Bottom line is... the pattern not written correctly! I worked the row as written in the pattern & by what was posted. I ended up with 20 increases & 70 total sts.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

laceluvr said:


> I agree with WindingRoad & jvallas...you can't just add another M1 before the last 5 edge sts. That's not how the pattern is written. If you should have 71 sts & 21 increases, then the instructions, as written, OMITTED the last M1 before the edge sts.
> 
> Bottom line is... the pattern not written correctly! I worked the row as written in the pattern & by what was posted. I ended up with 20 increases & 70 total sts.


The pattern IS written that way --- 
Inc. on row 8: K5 *M1 K2, repeat from * until 5 stitches left, K5 *(21 inc.) for 71 sts*.

K5 , M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2, ===== this is 20 increases. ====== M1,=== this is your 21 increases, === K5.
5+60+1+5=71

...................

Now I am Totally Out Of Here.
I Can Not Help Those Who Can Not Count To 21.


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## Nanswa (Jul 20, 2011)

I gave the pattern name and where to find it but I'll do it again. It's called Unisex Baby Sweater and it's on Ravelry (free pattern) The pattern is by Jaymie Glover.


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## Nanswa (Jul 20, 2011)

You're right GalaxyCraft. You have to add an additional M1 to get 71 stitches. I finally got 71 stitches but then ended up with a row of holes. Maybe I'll do better tomorrow. Thank you everyone for your help.


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## laceluvr (Feb 16, 2012)

I don't normally come across patterns with partial or unfinished instructions within asterisks, unless it's a badly written pattern; and we all know there are many of those these days. I guess I'm used to reading well written vintage patterns & the way my knitting teachers taught me the correct way to read & follow pattern instructions...especially those within asterisks & brackets.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

there are times when I just sit back and let someone else answer, too many conflicting instructions


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## gdhavens (Jul 21, 2011)

No matter what the pattern said, if I got to the end and still needed 1 more stitch, I probably would do another "M1" to get the required 71 sts.

As to the type of increase, kfb requires an existing stitch, but a true "M1" does not. The kfb, you have to use a stitch that is on the needle, so in this case you would "kfb, k2" which would use 3 sts and only give you 13 or 14 (depending on how you read it) increases. M1 uses the bar between the sts, so you would have the 20 or 21 increases.


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## mac.worrall (Jun 24, 2011)

laceluvr said:


> I don't normally come across patterns with partial or unfinished instructions within asterisks, unless it's a badly written pattern; and we all know there are many of those these days. I guess I'm used to reading well written vintage patterns & the way my knitting teachers taught me the correct way to read & follow pattern instructions...especially those within asterisks & brackets.


For what it's worth,I am in agreement with you.


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## Hilary4 (Apr 26, 2012)

The OP named the pattern on page 2 of this thread!

All of these increase rows are one increase short as written and therefore need an extra M1 after the final set and before the border:
_ Inc. on row 8: K5 *M1 K2, repeat from * until 5 stitches left, K5 (21 inc.) for 71 sts.
Inc. on row 16: K5 *M1 K2, repeat from * until 6 stitches left, K6 (31 inc.) for 102 sts.
Inc. on row 24: K6 *M1 K2, repeat from * until 6 stitches left, K6 (46 inc.) for 148 sts._

The pattern writer also *clearly* describes how she did the M1:
_M1: Bring the tip of the left hand needle under the strand between stitches, from back to front. Knit this
stitch through the front loop making sure that it twists._


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## whataknitwit (May 1, 2011)

Here's my twopenny worth, always read the instructions on the pattern they will usually tell you what the abbreviations mean. Sometime a pattern will say make one by kfb or by picking up the strand between the stitches. If I want to use my preferred method I change the stitch count accordingly.


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## Marny CA (Jun 26, 2011)

How would kf&b be a different increase than m1 ?


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## Aunty M (Jul 7, 2014)

galaxycraft said:


> The pattern IS written that way ---
> Inc. on row 8: K5 *M1 K2, repeat from * until 5 stitches left, K5 *(21 inc.) for 71 sts*.


I notice that there is *not* an * *after* the *M1K2, only before, therefore I interpret it to be that you do this until you have the correct number of stitches, but not necessarily to the full repeat, as you don't have a defined repeat between two *. That's how I read these instructions. Not the plainest way to word it for sure.


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## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

Technically the pattern is correct. Normally if only part of a repeat is intended this is clear. So normally this pattern wpould be written k5*M1 K2 repeat from * until 5 sttiches remain, M1 (21 increases), K5. (or work to last 3 stitches, k3 gives the same outcome). But if you repeat the M1 K2 until 5 stitches remain and do 21 increases like the pattern states you will finish with the M1. 

This is a time when doing kfb should look fine (sometimes it can matter) but you must understand that kfb uses the first of the knits that follow. So as others have said if you want to use kfb you do kfb, k1. Then at the end after the last k1 you do the kfb (for the missing recorded increase), k4. 
Patterns are a guide only- you are not forced to do it just as it says, so you can subsitute one increase for another if you wish- but you must use the same total stitches for each set (in this pattern so you must use only 2 stitches to make 3, not 3 stitches to make 4 which is what you will do with kfb, K2.
And how do you know which increase to do? read the aabreviations for the apttern it should tell you what they want you to do. Whuile most times M1 means a lifted increase ofr similar it doesn't always. So always check if the count is important so you know which to do. 

And if you are doing your increases correctly as she says you shouldn't have holes so try practising on a smaller piece until you get it right if you want to do it the way the pattern says.


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## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

Marny CA said:


> How would kf&b be a different increase than m1 ?


A number of the posts adress this- including mine just above.

Try working a small swatch and see the difference if you have 20 stitches and do m1 k2 across the row and then on another row (having decreased back to 20 stitches) kfb, k2 (clearly the OP did it this way rather than seeing the kfb as M1 K1 which it is actually needs to be viewed as for this pattern).


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## Grandma M (Nov 18, 2011)

MrsMurdog said:


> I come up with 70.
> 
> K5 (M1 K2)20 times K5
> 
> ...


Yes that's what I get also.


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

chickkie said:


> how are you doing your M1? are you sure there are 21 increases?
> 
> M1 K2 x 21 is 63 plus your 10 border stitches is 73
> 
> what pattern are you doing?


You do the M1, K2 twenty times plus one M1, which is 61 plus the 5 at beginning and 5 at the end, which makes 71.


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

jvallas said:


> Agreeing to most of the above. Just adding clarification that each set will replace 2 stitches with 3 (20 times). Somehow, I'm getting 70, not 71.


She didn't write it in the directions, but there has to be a M1 after the last K2 and before the K5 at the end.

That way, there are 5 stitches on each end, and the next stitch in on both sides would be the M1.

Either the directions are wrong, or you forgot to write the last M1.


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## braegirl (Oct 31, 2011)

To get 71, you need to add a M1 before last 5 knit stitches.

I think it should read: K5, M1, *K2,M1, repeat to last 5 sts., K5


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## pamgillies1 (Aug 6, 2011)

I get 70 unless you M1 before the last 5 stitches. Could be a pattern error.


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## sschimel (Mar 22, 2013)

I'd like to point out that no matter the method of increasing, it's mathematically impossible to come up with different stitch counts. Whether you use M1,kfb,yo,etc,you're still increasing by one. What is affected is the appearance. Each increase method looks different.


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## Anna3703 (Mar 4, 2012)

With 21 M1,K2 's you will be left with 2 knit stitches at the end of the row ( and 5 K at the beginning).. That is 68 stitches and 2at the end, then you would M1 and K2 (3 stitches). So 21 x 3 = 63 plus 5 at the beginning of row = 68. Then you would Ml and Knit 2.. Total 71.

So you will have K5 at the end of the row, (the first K will be the M1, then K4) See what I mean?


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## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

sschimel said:


> I'd like to point out that no matter the method of increasing, it's mathematically impossible to come up with different stitch counts. Whether you use M1,kfb,yo,etc,you're still increasing by one. What is affected is the appearance. Each increase method looks different.


Not if you do as the OP did and did kfb K2, this used 3 sttiches to get 4. But m1 K2 uses 2 stitches to get 3. Te OP way does not work. If they had done kfb K1 kfb K1 (with the second section of the kfb being the first of the K2s then it would work).


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## sschimel (Mar 22, 2013)

I would k4 then kfb k2. But I take your point.


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## lainey_h (Dec 14, 2013)

nhauf001 said:


> well if I read it right, 50 stitches minus the 10 stitches (5 on each end) leaves you 40, and you divide by 2 (because you are adding one every 2 stitches that give you 20, but you need to add 1 as you start with a M1, which gives you 21, so . . . 50 +21 is 71, I think the pattern is right. maybe you need some stitch markers, I would at least mark off the 5 stitches at each end, it might help. -- good luck!


Yes, my math agrees with this. Good idea for the stitch markers!


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## flitri (Jun 13, 2011)

You are right, that is what I thought and did as well.I did Kfb on the increase st then K1 and I got 70 sts.


darowil said:


> Not if you do as the OP did and did kfb K2, this used 3 sttiches to get 4. But m1 K2 uses 2 stitches to get 3. Te OP way does not work. If they had done kfb K1 kfb K1 (with the second section of the kfb being the first of the K2s then it would work).


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## valmac (Nov 22, 2012)

laceluvr said:


> I don't normally come across patterns with partial or unfinished instructions within asterisks, unless it's a badly written pattern; and we all know there are many of those these days. I guess I'm used to reading well written vintage patterns & the way my knitting teachers taught me the correct way to read & follow pattern instructions...especially those within asterisks & brackets.


Agreed! after reading all the posts, polite and helpful through snippy, MHO is that the final M1 was omitted, (don't care that 21 increases was stated) that is my opinion and I'm sticking to it and I CAN count to 21. If I had been knitting that pattern, I would have put the missing M1 in and carried on, doesn't make it right though!


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## valmac (Nov 22, 2012)

braegirl said:


> To get 71, you need to add a M1 before last 5 knit stitches.
> 
> I think it should read: K5, M1, *K2,M1, repeat to last 5 sts., K5


Yes!


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## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

sschimel said:


> I would k4 then kfb k2. But I take your point.


but as you continue across the row you can't keep working the K2 or you will run out of stitches before you do 21 increases. If it was only one increase- or one each end -it wouldn't matter.
If you use 3 stitches for each increase you need around 63 stitches to make 21 increases, but you only have 40. Using 2 stitches per increase (whether picking up the loop, K2 OR kfb K1) uses 40 stitches and 40 stitches is how many you have to work (well it is 20 increases then 1 more before the last K5 to make the 21).


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## ompuff (Apr 9, 2011)

Just read all 6 pages of commentary/discussion/argument --you folk have really given me a chuckle for the morning.

Blessings.

  :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## littletreasure (Jun 4, 2011)

galaxycraft said:


> Just follow the instructions --- K5 *M1 K2, repeat from * until 5 stitches left, K5
> Because the instructions state so ----
> You do the repeat up to the last five sts, you end in the repeat where you end.
> Not all repeats in every pattern will end with the completed instructions of between * and *.
> Sometimes they end midway. This is one of those times.


How are we to know when the pattern ends midway between *s and when to follow the instructions as written?!! Perhaps we are supposed to be mind-readers. No wonder novice knitters get discouraged when a pattern does not work for them!


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

sschimel said:


> I'd like to point out that no matter the method of increasing, it's mathematically impossible to come up with different stitch counts. Whether you use M1,kfb,yo,etc,you're still increasing by one. What is affected is the appearance. Each increase method looks different.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

littletreasure said:


> How are we to know when the pattern ends midway between *s and when to follow the instructions as written?!! Perhaps we are supposed to be mind-readers. No wonder novice knitters get discouraged when a pattern does not work for them!


By reading the pattern and counting --- 2 requirements needed to follow a pattern.
It states (21 inc.) for 71 sts.

............................

K5,
{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2},{M1,K2}
M1
K5
Equals 21 M1 Increases.

In a word Document (as it doesn't have the space here on the forum);
lay this all out and go from the outsides to the center.

You have the K5's at the ends,
the next ones in towards the center is the M1's, then the K2, Then M1's, etc right on through to the center stitch.

........................................................

Inc. on row 8: K5 *M1 K2, repeat from * until 5 stitches left, K5 (21 inc.) for 71 sts.

K5 , M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2,M1 K2, ===== this is 20 increases. ====== M1,=== this is your 21 increases, === K5.
5+60+1+5=71

.......................................................

From pattern --
M1: Bring the tip of the left hand needle under the strand between stitches, from back to front.
Knit this stitch through the front loop making sure that it twists.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

darowil said:


> A number of the posts adress this- including mine just above.
> 
> Try working a small swatch and see the difference if you have 20 stitches and do m1 k2 across the row and then on another row (having decreased back to 20 stitches) kfb, k2 (clearly the OP did it this way rather than seeing the kfb as M1 K1 which it is actually needs to be viewed as for this pattern).


there is NO difference between the kfb or m1 as long. It is the way it is executed. I have said over and over in this thread and many others. You have to kfb, k1 in this instance to get the proper count. As long as there are 2 knitted stitches between the increases I don't care how it is done, the count will be correct. If you kfb and then k2, then there are 3 knitted stitches between the increases.

I think there are too many who insist that it won't work. It will if you can think it through. I know it works!


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

sschimel said:


> I'd like to point out that no matter the method of increasing, it's mathematically impossible to come up with different stitch counts. Whether you use M1,kfb,yo,etc,you're still increasing by one. What is affected is the appearance. Each increase method looks different.


Not so --- there is indeed a stitch count difference when one follows the pattern --- NOT re-writing it to fit the type of increase preferred.

Let's use just a 10 stitch swatch (where the | is the stitch):

.....|.......|.......|.......|.......|.......|.......|.......|.......|.......|
...KFB........K2........KFB.......K2........KFB........K2........KFB =14

From pattern --
M1: Bring the tip of the left hand needle under the strand between stitches, from back to front.
Knit this stitch through the front loop making sure that it twists.

........|.....|........|.....|........|.....|........|.....|........|.....|
.M1.....K2....M1...K2....M1....K2....M1....K2....M1....K2=15

This whole thing was started because the OP had done a KFB instead of the instructed/designed/written way of the M1 increase.
And then followed the pattern as was written.
That is why the OP had way too few stitches and not coming up to the 71 sts required.


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## Nana5 (Aug 17, 2011)

CaroleD53 said:


> Are you making one by lifting the bar between the stitches and knitting into the back? It should work. You have 50 stitches and seem to have 5 at each end for bands. That leaves you 40 for main part. You increase after first 5 ( 1 increase) then after each 2 stitches (20 increases). 50+21 =71.


 :thumbup:


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## Knittin' in Georgia (Jun 27, 2013)

Thanks to all of you for this discussion. I read all of the pages, and learned a lot, especially that M1 and kfb will not produce the same number of stitches. I enjoyed the debate among those of you who clearly are expert knitters, each in his/her own right, and I just want you to know that I appreciate your contributions to this forum.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

Knittin' in Georgia said:


> Thanks to all of you for this discussion. I read all of the pages, and learned a lot, especially that M1 and kfb will not produce the same number of stitches. I enjoyed the debate among those of you who clearly are expert knitters, each in his/her own right, and I just want you to know that I appreciate your contributions to this forum.


it will produce the same number of stitches. kfb is just a knit one stitch, make 1, since you are making a stitch out of another stitch. It depends what you do after the kfb that makes the difference. You have to count part of that kfb as one of the knit stitches after the increase, so it would be kfb, K1 and it would work exactly the same as the lifted increase of m1 k2.


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## Knittin' in Georgia (Jun 27, 2013)

chickkie said:


> it will produce the same number of stitches. kfb is just a knit one stitch, make 1, since you are making a stitch out of another stitch. It depends what you do after the kfb that makes the difference. You have to count part of that kfb as one of the knit stitches after the increase, so it would be kfb, K1 and it would work exactly the same as the lifted increase of m1 k2.


Thanks, Chickie. I think I follow you. Am going to do a swatch so I can have a visual of what you are saying.


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## Binzy (Apr 7, 2015)

Yes, that is what I get. The directions say M1 before you K2, and there is not an additional M1 at the end. No way I'd ever get 71 from that. I'd have 70 every time, well every time I count correctly


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## Binzy (Apr 7, 2015)

MrsMurdog said:


> I come up with 70.
> 
> K5 (M1 K2)20 times K5
> 
> ...


Yes, that is what I get. The directions say M1 before you K2, and there is not an additional M1 at the end. No way I'd ever get 71 from that. I'd have 70 every time, well every time I count correctly!


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## scumbugusa (Oct 10, 2011)

jvallas said:


> Agreeing to most of the above. Just adding clarification that each set will replace 2 stitches with 3 (20 times). Somehow, I'm getting 70, not 71.


Just add an extra M1 at the end before the last 5 stitches.


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## joycevv (Oct 13, 2011)

MrsMurdog said:


> I come up with 70.
> 
> K5 (M1 K2)20 times K5
> 
> ...


I did it slightly differently. 50 minus 10 (end stitches) is 40. There's a M1 for every two stitches in those 40. I think to get to 71 and for the sake of symmetry, there should be a final M! before the last 5 knit stitches. That would make a count of 71.


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## janenedrow53 (Jul 3, 2013)

GrumpyGramma said:


> K5 *M1 K2, repeat from * until 5 stitches left, K5
> 
> In order to make it come out right you have to do another m1 before the last k5.
> What pattern is this, a link would help, if not a link at least a name so maybe we can chase it down. There might be errata.


Exactly what I was thinking.


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## lindseymary (Oct 29, 2011)

jvallas said:


> Agreeing to most of the above. Just adding clarification that each set will replace 2 stitches with 3 (20 times). Somehow, I'm getting 70, not 71.


Me too,think there should be another M1 before last 5 stitches.Lindseymary


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

darowil said:


> but as you continue across the row you can't keep working the K2 or you will run out of stitches before you do 21 increases. If it was only one increase- or one each end -it wouldn't matter.
> If you use 3 stitches for each increase you need around 63 stitches to make 21 increases, but you only have 40. Using 2 stitches per increase (whether picking up the loop, K2 OR kfb K1) uses 40 stitches and 40 stitches is how many you have to work (well it is 20 increases then 1 more before the last K5 to make the 21).


You only use TWO stitches!

You're getting three because that's how many you end with, not the two stitches you need to make the three stitches.


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## ompuff (Apr 9, 2011)

Talk about 'beating a dead horse' :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

ompuff said:


> Talk about 'beating a dead horse' :lol: :lol: :lol:


Should we divide for teams and have a competition? :roll: When we get tired of that we can lead a live one to water and see if it will drink.


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## RP1019 (May 23, 2014)

MrsMurdog said:


> I come up with 70.
> 
> K5 (M1 K2)20 times K5
> 
> ...


Yes. Seems as though it should end with M1 K5, not just with K5.


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## Linda6885 (Feb 13, 2011)

nhauf001 said:


> well if I read it right, 50 stitches minus the 10 stitches (5 on each end) leaves you 40, and you divide by 2 (because you are adding one every 2 stitches that give you 20, but you need to add 1 as you start with a M1, which gives you 21, so . . . 50 +21 is 71, I think the pattern is right. maybe you need some stitch markers, I would at least mark off the 5 stitches at each end, it might help. -- good luck!


 :thumbup: 
A M1 is made using the float of yarn 'between the stitches. If you are doing a different increase you count would be off.


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## MidMdRoots (Feb 9, 2013)

jvallas said:


> But it will end with k2, then the k5. I don't see why you'd start again with another m1 (except to make it come up with a count of 71). Instruction should say *m1, k2* till last 5 stitches, m1, k5.


That's how I read it too. They seem to have left out the M1 before the last K5.


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## valmac (Nov 22, 2012)

littletreasure said:


> How are we to know when the pattern ends midway between *s and when to follow the instructions as written?!! Perhaps we are supposed to be mind-readers. No wonder novice knitters get discouraged when a pattern does not work for them!


 :thumbup:


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## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

littletreasure said:


> How are we to know when the pattern ends midway between *s and when to follow the instructions as written?!! Perhaps we are supposed to be mind-readers. No wonder novice knitters get discouraged when a pattern does not work for them!


Ideally they don't so that you can tell, but in this instance she does give you all the information you need as you tells you how many increases you need to make. 
I've rarely come across patterns that finsih half through a repeat. Normally when this has been needed the half a repeat has been written seperatlly either at the beginning of the end of the row.


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## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

chickkie said:


> there is NO difference between the kfb or m1 as long. It is the way it is executed. I have said over and over in this thread and many others. You have to kfb, k1 in this instance to get the proper count. As long as there are 2 knitted stitches between the increases I don't care how it is done, the count will be correct. If you kfb and then k2, then there are 3 knitted stitches between the increases.
> 
> I think there are too many who insist that it won't work. It will if you can think it through. I know it works!


Chikkie that is exactly what I have been saying all along- the problem arises as I keep saying when people don't realise that you need to know this. The OP was doing kfb K2 which was not what the pattern called for- and will not work. If you read my posts I have repeadetly said that if you want to use kfb it can be done but that the second half of the kfb is the first knit stitch therefore you do kfb K1. Many people don't realise that the second half of the the kfb in some patterns counts as a stitch.
Whereas if I had a pattern that read kfb K2 after doing the kfb I would K2 thus ending up with 4 stitches from 3 stitches. 
ANd this is why people need to understand how the increases work- and to know which increase is used in a pattern (not so they slavishly follow the pattern but so that in cases like this people know how many stitches to work between the increase). When the increases are just at the ends/s of rows it doesn't matter what increase you use compared to what they designer used. It is only when the increases have a set number between them that knowing the type of increase matters for spacing purposes.


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## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

Binzy said:


> Yes, that is what I get. The directions say M1 before you K2, and there is not an additional M1 at the end. No way I'd ever get 71 from that. I'd have 70 every time, well every time I count correctly!


What tells us is that she says 21 increases- so clearly she stops in the middle of a repeat (not how I think it should be written but techincally correct)


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

darowil said:


> Chikkie that is exactly what I have been saying all along- the problem arises as I keep saying when people don't realise that you need to know this. The OP was doing kfb K2 which was not what the pattern called for- and will not work. If you read my posts I have repeadetly said that if you want to use kfb it can be done but that the second half of the kfb is the first knit stitch therefore you do kfb K1. Many people don't realise that the second half of the the kfb in some patterns counts as a stitch.
> Whereas if I had a pattern that read kfb K2 after doing the kfb I would K2 thus ending up with 4 stitches from 3 stitches.
> ANd this is why people need to understand how the increases work- and to know which increase is used in a pattern (not so they slavishly follow the pattern but so that in cases like this people know how many stitches to work between the increase). When the increases are just at the ends/s of rows it doesn't matter what increase you use compared to what they designer used. It is only when the increases have a set number between them that knowing the type of increase matters for spacing purposes.


FINALLY, someone that agrees with me. Thank You! I have said the same thing all along.


----------



## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

lostarts said:


> You only use TWO stitches!
> 
> You're getting three because that's how many you end with, not the two stitches you need to make the three stitches.


The OP was using 3 stitches to get an increase (the stitch for the kfb and then the K2).
To get the correct count kfb K1 uses 2 stitches to get 3 as does the M1 K1 that the designer used. Either of these works for the pattern.


----------



## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

chickkie said:


> FINALLY, someone that agrees with me. Thank You! I have said the same thing all along.


 :thumbup:


----------



## Sampymom (Feb 10, 2014)

Sometimes the snippyness between two or three people gets a bit much. I'm sure each of these folks are excellent knitters. Most of us reading the posts DO understand what each is explaining, and I feel positive that we all CAN count! There are just differences of opinion, which is fine. But I think everyone should use as much kindness as possible with each other. If reading a post gets someone irritated enough to reply in a snippy fashion, they should exit that post and read another one! Just my honest opinion !


----------



## Joyce Stewart (Feb 1, 2015)

Who knew we needed a masters degree in math just to knit!


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

chickkie said:


> FINALLY, someone that agrees with me. Thank You! I have said the same thing all along.


Hold on skinny. I got that from the Paleo diet thread.. LOL I've agreed with you all along.

Here's how you count it. K1f=M1 Then KB = K1 K1 is your second of the K2. Plain as the nose on your face.

I haven't read since last nite. Seems 50 is the correct starting point before the increases. Is 71 correct for the end count of the increase row?


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

gdhavens said:


> No matter what the pattern said, if I got to the end and still needed 1 more stitch, I probably would do another "M1" to get the required 71 sts.
> 
> As to the type of increase, kfb requires an existing stitch, but a true "M1" does not. The kfb, you have to use a stitch that is on the needle, so in this case you would "kfb, k2" which would use 3 sts and only give you 13 or 14 (depending on how you read it) increases. M1 uses the bar between the sts, so you would have the 20 or 21 increases.


Again THERE ARE TWO LEGS on a STITCH. The first leg KF in the M1. The KB is the first K1 stitch and then the next K stitch is the K2.. You have only used 2 stitches to end up with 3. M1, K2 uses 2 stitches and KFB K2 only uses 2 stitches. And both ways end up with 3 stitches.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> rrrrrrrrrrr ---- I really hate the Ravelry Search function.
> I finally found the pattern with a Google search instead.
> http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/unisex-baby-sweater
> From pattern --
> ...


How did you get K6 at the beginning and K6 at the end of Row 24?


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Marny CA said:


> How would kf&b be a different increase than m1 ?


That's the $64,000 question.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> How did you get K6 at the beginning and K6 at the end of Row 24?


Go to the link ---- download or open the pattern .......
That is what the pattern states.
I DID NOT MAKE IT UP.

Some actually think this is my pattern or something.
Read the pattern .... I am not the designer/writer of this pattern.

I guess some have never heard of copy and paste either. :roll:

But then I am responding to a person who wants others to do their thinking for them.
Getting bored because no snow?
Have a good night WR.


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> Go to the link ---- download or open the pattern .......
> That is what the pattern states.
> I DID NOT MAKE IT UP.
> 
> ...


I have read it Right there in your post.

What I want to know is how do you have K5 at the beginning and end of Row 16

And then on the next and only increase Says K6 at the beginning and the end. Where did those extra stitches come into play. Seems there might be more than one error....


----------



## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> I have read it Right there in your post.
> 
> What I want to know is how do you have K5 at the beginning and end of Row 16
> And then on the next and only increase Says K6 at the beginning and the end.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Message the designer. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Let it snow ---- Let it snow ---- Let it snow.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> Message the designer. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Why can't you answer my question?


----------



## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Why can't you answer my question?


 GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD --- I AM NOT THE DESIGNER ---- ASK THE DESIGNER THROUGH A MESSAGE ON RAVELRY.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD --- I AM NOT THE DESIGNER ---- ASK THE DESIGNER THROUGH A MESSAGE ON RAVELRY.
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


No need to yell. I"m not yelling at you.


----------



## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Let it snow ---- Let it snow ---- Let it snow.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Again THERE ARE TWO LEGS on a STITCH. The first leg KF in the M1. The KB is the first K1 stitch and then the next K stitch is the K2.. You have only used 2 stitches to end up with 3. M1, K2 uses 2 stitches and KFB K2 only uses 2 stitches. And both ways end up with 3 stitches.


So if you had a pattern that said kfb K2 how would you work it?

I would do a kfb (1 stitch into 2) then knit 2 so I get 4 stitches from the orginal three.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

darowil said:


> So if you had a pattern that said kfb K2 how would you work it?
> 
> I would do a kfb (1 stitch into 2) then knit 2 so I get 4 stitches from the orginal three.


The pattern says M1 KFB does that. Why is that so hard to understand. If it said KFB K2 that's what I'd do. But I wouldn't willy nilly just stick a M1 any old place I thought it should. Where in the pattern does it say that M1, K2 gives ya 3 stitches. It doesn't.

Again how do they come up with K6 at the beginning and end of Row 24.


----------



## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Read the pattern again.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
...............

Let it snow ---- Let it snow ---- Let it snow.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
................
Some people are just a hopeless cause.
They are so focused on doing it their way - with blinders on, they can't see what is in front of them.

Let it snow ---- Let it snow ---- Let it snow.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> Read the pattern again.
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> ...............
> ...


I have the PDF file. Again where did she get 6/6 in Row 24 When Row 16 was 5/6.. And there is no increase row between them?


----------



## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> The pattern says M1 KFB does that. Why is that so hard to understand. If it said KFB K2 that's what I'd do. But I wouldn't willy nilly just stick a M1 any old place I thought it should. Where in the pattern does it say that M1, K2 gives ya 3 stitches. It doesn't.
> 
> Again how do they come up with K6 at the beginning and end of Row 24.


So what I have been saying all along applies. 
You need to understand how a M1 and a KFB works. If you understand this then you can substitute one for the other in any pattern. But if you don't then you get in the muddle the OP did.
You Know, Chikkie knows and I know (and many others do as well) that you can substitute one for the other if you realise that you have already knitted the first knit stitch.
But for those who don't understand this they really need to follow the increases as written to avoid getting in a mess. And starting yet another post like this one.

As to your other question- I don't know and don't care. But why don't you knit up the rows to find out- you could always miss most the rows inbetween just to see whether it is right or not.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

darowil said:


> So what I have been saying all along applies.
> You need to understand how a M1 and a KFB works. If you understand this then you can substitute one for the other in any pattern. But if you don't then you get in the muddle the OP did.
> You Know, Chikkie knows and I know (and many others do as well) that you can substitute one for the other if you realise that you have already knitted the first knit stitch.
> But for those who don't understand this they really need to follow the increases as written to avoid getting in a mess. And starting yet another post like this one.
> ...


Ya know what I've said the very same thing several times in this thread. Maybe YOU should go back and read what I've written. I know it's not right on the very first increase row. Why are the first 2 increases ( if they are correct) 10 stitches apart and the third one is 15 stitches more? All you have to do is answer that question. Should be simple.


----------



## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Should be simple to just ask the designer.
Why the demanding of us to furnish the answer?

Let it snow ---- Let it snow ---- Let it snow.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> Should be simple to just ask the designer.
> Why the demanding of us to furnish the answer?
> 
> Let it snow ---- Let it snow ---- Let it snow.
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Cuz you always have the answers.


----------



## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Cuz you always have the answers.


Thank you for the recognition. 
But that is no excuse to play the cat and mouse game with everyone, and go around and around and around and around. 
The dance never ends.

But I will give you a hint ----- The Item Is NOT a blanket.
You really do need to do more patterns.
For someone who preaches about subbing a M1 with KFB whenever she can 
(whether appropriate or not to the pattern - or could care less that an OP is a newbie, just wants to through confusion into the mix),
should already know the answer to your own question.

Let it snow ---- Let it snow ---- Let it snow.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Ya know what I've said the very same thing several times in this thread. Maybe YOU should go back and read what I've written. I know it's not right on the very first increase row. Why are the first 2 increases ( if they are correct) 10 stitches apart and the third one is 15 stitches more? All you have to do is answer that question. Should be simple.


Sorry I'm not following you. Isn't the first increase on the first increase row after knit 5 and then after every two stitches to the last 5. I thought the only debate was how to get the right number of increases in- by having 2 stitches between the increase- however you choose to do it- and whether it is written correctly for the 21st stitch.

People get very confused by the difference- and there is a difference and for rows like these the difference needs to be understood. If you don't understand then you won't know whether you knit 1 or 2 sttiches after the increase. You and I know that kfb K1 is the same as M1 K2 but many don't. Many do as the OP did and do kfb K2.
And many people faced with kfb K2 who decide to do a M1 would do M1 K2 which will not work- it will need to be adjusted to M1 K3 to work. (only of course if it is repeated as a stand alone increase it deosn't matter) But if you don't know the difference you won't know you need to make an adjustment.
I hoped that some would finish this post understanding this so they could use there preferred increase without messing up the pattern.


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## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

I think a *summary* of these 10 pages is simply this.
Knit 5 sttiches then increase 1 stitch and work 2 in-between each increase (either kfb plus one knitted OR knitting two after the M1 as per the pattern) until 5 stitches remain. This will be 20 increases. Then do one more increase (total of 21 as per pattern) and knit the stitches remaining (4 or 5 depending on the increase you have chosen to do).


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## Nanswa (Jul 20, 2011)

I want to sincerely thank everyone that helped me understand the difference between a M1 and a KFB. I learned to do a M1 today and have done all the increases with no holes. It's always good to learn something new even if it's a small thing. Thank you again!


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Nanswa said:


> I want to sincerely thank everyone that helped me understand the difference between a M1 and a KFB. I learned to do a M1 today and have done all the increases with no holes. It's always good to learn something new even if it's a small thing. Thank you again!


Whoooo Hooooo!!! Congratulations! :thumbup:


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## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

Nanswa said:


> I want to sincerely thank everyone that helped me understand the difference between a M1 and a KFB. I learned to do a M1 today and have done all the increases with no holes. It's always good to learn something new even if it's a small thing. Thank you again!


Great.
Learning something is always useful- and now you can make up your own mind as to which increase you prefer- or whether you will just choose to follow the pattern.
Hope the rest of the sweater goes well. Who are you knitting it for?


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## Nanswa (Jul 20, 2011)

Thank you, Galaxy!


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## Nanswa (Jul 20, 2011)

I'm knitting the sweater(s) for charity. This is my first one and I was so disappointed when I couldn't get the increases to work out doing them my way but I feel much better now. Thanks again!


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## valmac (Nov 22, 2012)

Sampymom said:


> Sometimes the snippyness between two or three people gets a bit much. I'm sure each of these folks are excellent knitters. Most of us reading the posts DO understand what each is explaining, and I feel positive that we all CAN count! There are just differences of opinion, which is fine. But I think everyone should use as much kindness as possible with each other. If reading a post gets someone irritated enough to reply in a snippy fashion, they should exit that post and read another one! Just my honest opinion !


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## ADW55 (Mar 31, 2014)

I wouldn't use this pattern, not only does the designer not
add the extra M1, but also change the border edge stitches
from 5 to 6, to further confuse people. It clearly states
to make 1, knit 2 up to the last 5 stitches, not make one before
the last 5 stitches. the pattern repeat is *M1, K2* not
*M1, K2, M1*.

Correction, the button band is only 4 stitches, you have to 
maintain k4 at the beginning and end of the row. 50-8=42/2=21
Which makes the increases 21.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> Thank you for the recognition.
> But that is no excuse to play the cat and mouse game with everyone, and go around and around and around and around.
> The dance never ends.
> 
> ...


I'm not subbing KFB for M1 I've never said I M1 as I never have. I always use KFB for my increases. The issue here is not the way it's increased it's the stitch count and the designers adding a stitch without telling us how to do it or where to put it. Again I will ask you if a pattern says M1,K2 over an even number of stitches. 40 in this instance how do you get an odd number of stitches form that section.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> I'm not subbing KFB for M1 I've never said I M1 as I never have. I always use KFB for my increases. The issue here is not the way it's increased it's the stitch count and the designers adding a stitch without telling us how to do it or where to put it. Again I will ask you if a pattern says M1,K2 over an even number of stitches. 40 in this instance how do you get an odd number of stitches form that section.


I am done with you - Like so many other times.

I Said --- "For someone who preaches about subbing a M1 *with KFB whenever she can*".
That IS what I said.
I DID NOT say it the other way around as in your reply.

The Pattern Is Correct and there are many on Ravelry that has successfully completed it WITHOUT mentioning any problems or adjustments.

It is all right in the pattern.

Have a good life WR.


----------



## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

galaxycraft said:


> I am done with you - Like so many other times.
> 
> I Said --- "For someone who preaches about subbing a M1 *with KFB whenever she can*".
> That IS what I said.
> ...


Source: http://www.craftyarncouncil.com/tip_knit.html
How to Read a Knitting Pattern

*Row 1: *K2, P2; rep from * across, end K2.

That means that you will knit the first two stitches, then purl the next two stitches; then you will knit 2, then purl 2, again, and repeat the steps following the asterisk all across the row until the last two stitches which you will knit.*

The above is copied from the page cited. I see nothing about partial repeats and therefore conclude the pattern in question is incomplete as written. Incomplete is incorrect IMO.

"All right in the pattern" would have to include all increases. That others have completed the pattern and not mentioned the missing increases does not make the pattern correct. It means they figured it out and went on with it and is more likely an indication that they asked questions elsewhere or already had the skills to figure it out and proceed on their own.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Now "I" Am The One Getting Lessons In How To Read A Pattern. :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Sorry The Pattern Isn't Written To YOUR Expectations ----
ALL The Information Is There To Complete The Item As Directed.

Bye Bye To You Too.

Let Is Snow .... Let Is Snow .... Let Is Snow .... 
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

galaxycraft said:


> Now "I" Am The One Getting Lessons In How To Read A Pattern. :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Sorry The Pattern Isn't Written To YOUR Expectations ----
> ALL The Information Is There To Complete The Item As Directed.
> ...


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:

Thank you. The sunshine here is lovely.

Thankfully I'm not too old to learn something new.


----------



## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

galaxycraft said:


> Now "I" Am The One Getting Lessons In How To Read A Pattern. :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Sorry The Pattern Isn't Written To YOUR Expectations ----
> ALL The Information Is There To Complete The Item As Directed.
> ...


1) You didn't write or adapt the pattern so you are in no position to offer apologies or to make corrections.

2) Whether or not the pattern is written to my expectations (I won't use caps for emphasis as you did) is irrelevant, whether it is correct or not is.

3) Please see attached.


----------



## valmac (Nov 22, 2012)

GrumpyGramma said:


> 1) You didn't write or adapt the pattern so you are in no position to offer apologies or to make corrections.
> 
> 2) Whether or not the pattern is written to my expectations (I won't use caps for emphasis as you did) is irrelevant, whether it is correct or not is.
> 
> 3) Please see attached.


Oh! Well done GG - nice to know we were right !!


----------



## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

I was also right (like some others as well) ----- I can count to 21. 
Don't even have to take my shoes off. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


----------



## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

galaxycraft said:


> I was also right (like some others as well) ----- I can count to 21.
> Don't even have to take my shoes off. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Thank goodness for huge blessings. If you need to count to 22 please warn us.


----------



## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

valmac said:


> Oh! Well done GG - nice to know we were right !!


Thanks and yeah, it is nice. For me, that's not really the issue. I could work the pattern as it was written and no problem. What got me was the arrogance displayed, the arrogance that can't admit that there just might be a better way to write a pattern. I don't have to be right and I am not to old or too stubborn to learn something nor too arrogant to admit that I could be wrong. I hope to learn from my mistakes. I think I'm in good company. gafchic had this to say:


> I corrected the pattern and uploaded it. Thanks again for catching that and bringing to my attention!


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

I've never had to correct something that was already correct. And why would you want an odd number of stitches in just the front sections (25) and even numbers on all the other section...

I'll just say hope some people are eating crow tonight. I've heard it's better when it's warm... LOL


----------



## Nanswa (Jul 20, 2011)

Thanks for doing that GG! Hopefully the correction will help someone in the future. Personally, I'm glad I asked for help here because I learned the difference in a KFB and a M1 increase and why I can't use them willy-nilly without consequences in some cases. Thanks again to everyone!


----------



## valmac (Nov 22, 2012)

galaxycraft said:


> I was also right (like some others as well) ----- I can count to 21.
> Don't even have to take my shoes off. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


No. Sorry, you weren't right! The pattern was not written correctly. I too could have worked it out, as could have most experienced knitters, however IMO a simple pattern like this one should be something a new knitter can follow too.


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Nanswa said:


> Thanks for doing that GG! Hopefully the correction will help someone in the future. Personally, I'm glad I asked for help here because I learned the difference in a KFB and a M1 increase and why I can't use them willy-nilly without consequences in some cases. Thanks again to everyone!


You can interchange them as long as you count correctly. When you knit in front of a stitch, you still have a stitch on your left needle. That's the crux of the matter. What difference does it make if you pick up a piece of yarn between stitches or ONE leg of a stitch in your count? NO ONE has ever been able to dispute that.


----------



## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

GrumpyGramma said:


> Source: http://www.craftyarncouncil.com/tip_knit.html
> How to Read a Knitting Pattern
> 
> *Row 1: *K2, P2; rep from * across, end K2.
> ...


Ideally it would be written this way (or one a few variations that will only give a full repeat. Edit in fact I see it has been changed now to improve the way it was written). HOWEVER she did say 21 increases and to get 21 increases it is necessary to finish in the middle of a repeat. The real problem for me would be if she hadn't said the number of increases as then you would have no way of knowing that she was finishing in the middle of a repeat.


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

darowil said:


> Ideally it would be written this way (or one a few variations that will only give a full repeat). HOWEVER she does say 21 increases and to get 21 increases it is necessary to finish in the middle of a repeat. The real problem for me would be if she hadn't said the number of increases as then you would have no way of knowing that she was finishing in the middle of a repeat.


Why not make an extra M1 at the beginning or in the middle still would have made 21 increases.

I've knit it almost to the dividing for sleeves. I did KFB, K2. And when I got to the first S1 Purl one section I just picked up one stitch purl wise at the end of that section. I kept my K5 at either end until I went to K4 either end for my button band. And now I will have even numbers of stitches in each section as I have 146 stitches. So 24 on both my fronts.


----------



## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Why not make an extra M1 at the beginning or in the middle still would have made 21 increases.


Yes it would- but putting it at the end continues on the pattern as established while putting it at the beginning or middle changes the established pattern (after all it makes more sense to continue as established and stop in the middle of a repeat than throw one in anywhere you feel like).


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

darowil said:


> Yes it would- but putting it at the end continues on the pattern as established while putting it at the beginning or middle changes the established pattern (after all it makes more sense to continue as established and stop in the middle of a repeat than throw one in anywhere you feel like).


To us maybe but I believe the OP is fairly knew to knitting. I wonder how someone would feel in a cookbook left out a key ingredient?


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## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> To us maybe but I believe the OP is fairly knew to knitting. I wonder how someone would feel in a cookbook left out a key ingredient?


Haven't you ever had that happen?

I think that a new knitter would be less likely to know that normally a repeat is completed and not stopped half way so would probably have less issues then more experienced knitters who look at a pattern with certain expectations. (of course us experienced knitters know how to adapt to patterns that aren't written as we expect-and often do so without even realising that we have done so).


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

darowil said:


> Haven't you ever had that happen?
> 
> I think that a new knitter would be less likely to know that normally a repeat is completed and not stopped half way so would probably have less issues then more experienced knitters who look at a pattern with certain expectations. (of course us experienced knitters know how to adapt to patterns that aren't written as we expect-and often do so without even realising that we have done so).


Most new knitters tend to blindly follow the pattern and learn that * * means do JUST THAT.


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