# ONLY IN AMERICA."



## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

Only in America could the rich people - who pay 86% of all income taxes - be accused of not paying their "fair share" by people who don't pay any income taxes at all.


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## louisezervas (Jun 28, 2011)

I agree!! 100%


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## ladydog (Nov 21, 2011)

Lina said:


> Only in America could the rich people - who pay 86% of all income taxes - be accused of not paying their "fair share" by people who don't pay any income taxes at all.


Do you mean the same 4% that own everything and each pay less than % of taxes than the worker who makes $58,000/year? Those people?


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## Redhatchris (Apr 21, 2012)

The rich get richer because the poor get poorer.


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## windowwonde28941 (Mar 9, 2011)

Amen to that .
We should take a very good look at this before is to late .
Lets take our votes serious and get this country at the right path.
Eugenia


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## medusa (Nov 20, 2012)

Redhatchris said:


> The rich get richer because the poor get poorer.


Truer words were never spoken!:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## kinross (Jun 27, 2011)

AMEN!!!!!! I agree!


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## Kathie (Mar 29, 2011)

ladydog said:


> Do you mean the same 4% that own everything and each pay less than % of taxes than the worker who makes $58,000/year? Those people?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Rita Ann (Jan 17, 2012)

AMEN.......you took the words right out of my mouth...


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## CarolfromTX (Nov 30, 2011)

Redhatchris said:


> The rich get richer because the poor get poorer.


So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

How is it fair that one citizen pays millions in taxes and another pays nothing in taxes?


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## Redhatchris (Apr 21, 2012)

Lina said:


> How is it fair that one citizen pays millions in taxes and another pays nothing in taxes?


I would LOVE to be in a financial position that required me to pay a million dollars in taxes. Can you imagine what the income would be to warrant such an expense?
5 letters tells it all: G R E E D


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## ladydog (Nov 21, 2011)

Redhatchris said:


> I would LOVE to be in a financial position that required me to pay a million dollars in taxes. Can you imagine what the income would be to warrant such an expense?
> 5 letters tells it all: G R E E D


AND, IF they did pay millions, what was the percentage to gross income? If we're lucky it was maybe 11%


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## Raybo (Mar 12, 2011)

Here we go again!!


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## CarolfromTX (Nov 30, 2011)

ladydog said:


> AND, IF they did pay millions, what was the percentage to gross income? If we're lucky it was maybe 11%


What about the people who pay no taxes at all? I'd love to go to a flat tax -- a percentage of income, so that everyone has some skin in the game, so to speak. Just how much of my income do you think the government is entitled to?


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## medusa (Nov 20, 2012)

Redhatchris said:


> I would LOVE to be in a financial position that required me to pay a million dollars in taxes. Can you imagine what the income would be to warrant such an expense?
> 5 letters tells it all: G R E E D


Five more letters - BINGO!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Redhatchris (Apr 21, 2012)

The system is broke and broken and the folks we rely on to fix it are the ones who broke it in the first place. 
The Govt needs to be run the way we run our household budget. If you cannot afford it, don't buy it. If it isn't broken, don't fix it.
The Government's system: If it ain't broke, fix it until it is!


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## Kathie (Mar 29, 2011)

CarolfromTX said:


> What about the people who pay no taxes at all? I'd love to go to a flat tax -- a percentage of income, so that everyone has some skin in the game, so to speak. Just how much of my income do you think the government is entitled to?


I'm willing to bet the people with incomes so low they don't need to pay taxes would love to have an income high enough to be able to do just that. BTW They might not pay withholding taxes but they pay sales tax, gas tax, property tax, and countless other taxes. Do you really want to have to supplement them further to cover room and board just to be able to say they have to pay withholding tax. It just doesn't add up. Maybe we should require businesses to pay a living wage. Then everyone would have to pay withholding tax. They also pay Social Security tax and medicare tax. No one is exempt.


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## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

10 Letters!!!!!

WEALTH ENVY


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

medusa said:


> Five more letters - BINGO!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Look at the fat man. He is fat bacause he took the food from the skinny man???


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

Confiscation of personal property.


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

Only in America could the two people most recently responsible for the tax code, Timothy Geithner, the head of the Treasury Department and Charles Rangel who once ran the House Ways and Means Committee, BOTH turn out to be tax cheats who are in favor of higher taxes.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Please explain the source of your statistics. Thank you.



Lina said:


> Only in America could the rich people - who pay 86% of all income taxes - be accused of not paying their "fair share" by people who don't pay any income taxes at all.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

A flat tax ignores the concept of percentages, and I believe you know that. Do you have any empathy for the sick, the elderly, children without rich daddies? Oi weh.



CarolfromTX said:


> What about the people who pay no taxes at all? I'd love to go to a flat tax -- a percentage of income, so that everyone has some skin in the game, so to speak. Just how much of my income do you think the government is entitled to?


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

Kathie said:


> I'm willing to bet the people with incomes so low they don't need to pay taxes would love to have an income high enough to be able to do just that. BTW They might not pay withholding taxes but they pay sales tax, gas tax, property tax, and countless other taxes. Do you really want to have to supplement them further to cover room and board just to be able to say they have to pay withholding tax. It just doesn't add up. Maybe we should require businesses to pay a living wage. Then everyone would have to pay withholding tax. They also pay Social Security tax and medicare tax. No one is exempt.


Do welfare recipeints pay withholding, ssi, sales tax on food purchases? I don't know...I'm asking. Do they pay taxes on their free phones and free minutes?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


Oy vay!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

ladydog said:


> Do you mean the same 4% that own everything and each pay less than % of taxes than the worker who makes $58,000/year? Those people?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Bazinga!



medusa said:


> Five more letters - BINGO!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Kathie said:


> I'm willing to bet the people with incomes so low they don't need to pay taxes would love to have an income high enough to be able to do just that. BTW They might not pay withholding taxes but they pay sales tax, gas tax, property tax, and countless other taxes. Do you really want to have to supplement them further to cover room and board just to be able to say they have to pay withholding tax. It just doesn't add up. Maybe we should require businesses to pay a living wage. Then everyone would have to pay withholding tax. They also pay Social Security tax and medicare tax. No one is exempt.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

Nolan Finleys column in the Detroit News comparing paying for milk and paying for taxes, based on an analysis a reader (corporate lawyer Jon Taub) provided:If every U.S. taxpayer purchased a gallon of milk, each person would pay $2.49, and the total cost would be 140.5 million times $2.49  or $349 million.

Now lets assume the government treated milk like government services and determined its price the same way it determines tax rates. The pricing would change as follows:

When the bottom 40 percent of earners buy their milk, they wont pay a dime for it. In fact, the government would give them $1 in reverse payments for every gallon of milk they purchase. The total cost of providing one gallon of milk to each person in this group would be $196.1 million.

The cost of providing milk to the remaining 60 percent of the taxpayers would be $209.9 million, bringing the total cost burden of all taxpayers milk to $406 million.

Under our existing tax rates, instead of paying $2.49 a gallon, the top 1 percent of earners would pay 38 percent of the total milk burden or $109.81 for a gallon of milk.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

http://top-federal-tax-rates.findthedata.org/
Musings:
Check out how the tax rates for the rich have gone down over time.
Rich people are not the only ones who work hard, are they?
Many rich people don't work at all.
Rich people get a ton of tax breaks and take advantage of loopholes.
Many corporations pay NO tax at all.
Rich people are getting richer on the backs of the middle and lower classes, and the disparity is getting wider.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Lina said:


> Only in America could the rich people - who pay 86% of all income taxes - be accused of not paying their "fair share" by people who don't pay any income taxes at all.


Yes, and how much of the wealth do they own?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Lina said:


> Do welfare recipeints pay withholding, ssi, sales tax on food purchases? I don't know...I'm asking. Do they pay taxes on their free phones and free minutes?


They don't get free minutes outside of what comes with the phone. Once they are gone, they pay for their own minutes. The reason they got the free phones was for emergency use.
In this country we have always taken care of our poor and elderly. 
Some states do tax food, clothing, and prescriptions. I don't kno about anybody else, but my SSI is taxed.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

galinipper said:


> 10 Letters!!!!!
> 
> WEALTH ENVY


Oi veh


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## kinross (Jun 27, 2011)

I agree with you. We are heading the wrong way!!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Your original quote is off. 86% of Americans pay taxes which includes the middle class and lower class workers. The 14% who do not don't earn enough money to pay taxes.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I think the only reason for opposing higher taxes on the rich is being one.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Lina said:


> Confiscation of personal property.


You think your tax payment is confiscation of personal property? Good grief!


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## books (Jan 11, 2013)

This is a ugly subject posted in a very argumentative and somewhat naïve way. I, for one, am ignoring...


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

I think one of the super rich said it best.


Warren Buffett, one of the richest men in the country, wants to pay more taxes and thinks his super-rich friends should too.

Buffett, who is estimated to be worth more than $47 billion, called on Congress to commit to "shared sacrifice" and raise taxes on people earning more than $1 million. Buffett said the rich are "coddled" by Congress "as if we were spotted owls or some other endangered species."

"While the poor and middle class fight for us in Afghanistan, and while most Americans struggle to make ends meet, we mega-rich continue to get our extraordinary tax breaks," Buffett wrote in a Sunday New York Times Op-ed.


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## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

alcameron said:


> Oi veh


oivey :!:


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

The problem with Warren Buffet is that he has NOT paid more in taxes, has he? He's all talk and no action on this topic. I haven't heard his super-rich friends stand up and say they want to pay more either. Although i did hear Donald Trump say he would be willing to pay more in taxes if he thought the government would spend it properly. I do not know if The Donald is a friend of Buffet's.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> The problem with Warren Buffet is that he has NOT paid more in taxes, has he? He's all talk and no action on this topic. I haven't heard his super-rich friends stand up and say they want to pay more either. Although i did hear Donald Trump say he would be willing to pay more in taxes if he thought the government would spend it properly. I do not know if The Donald is a friend of Buffet's.


Try replying to the idea and thoughts expressed.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> Try replying to the idea and thoughts expressed.


I did, The idea was the rich should pay more in taxes. Your thought expressed that Warren Buffet made the comment that he should pay more in taxes and so should his super rich friends. My reply to the idea was that Warren Buffet has not paid more in taxes and neither have his friends. All talk and no action.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> I did, The idea was the rich should pay more in taxes. Your thought expressed that Warren Buffet made the comment that he should pay more in taxes and so should his super rich friends. My reply to the idea was that Warren Buffet has not paid more in taxes and neither have his friends. All talk and no action.


Perhaps reading the entire article, which I did not paste here might give us more to discuss.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

It's all due to the "47%". <grin>


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## Katsch (Mar 15, 2011)

medusa said:


> Five more letters - BINGO!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Haha good one  even though I know you didn't mean it the way I took it


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## Katsch (Mar 15, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> The problem with Warren Buffet is that he has NOT paid more in taxes, has he? He's all talk and no action on this topic. I haven't heard his super-rich friends stand up and say they want to pay more either. Although i did hear Donald Trump say he would be willing to pay more in taxes if he thought the government would spend it properly. I do not know if The Donald is a friend of Buffet's.


The key words " if the government would spend it properly"


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

galinipper said:


> oivey :!:


I use a variety of "spellings"


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

So go on breaking your arm patting yourself on the back.



alcameron said:


> http://top-federal-tax-rates.findthedata.org/
> Musings:
> Check out how the tax rates for the rich have gone down over time.
> Rich people are not the only ones who work hard, are they?
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Then there are the ones who escape taxes all together while earning millions. Can you spell tax loophole?



BrattyPatty said:


> Your original quote is off. 86% of Americans pay taxes which includes the middle class and lower class workers. The 14% who do not don't earn enough money to pay taxes.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

So are you stealing the use of the national highways when you drive? Do you expect to be protected from war? Clean water to drink and bathe? Contrary to some popular belief, our government does good things for all of us.



alcameron said:


> You think your tax payment is confiscation of personal property? Good grief!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree with Ingried on this one. Are you with us Andrea?



alcameron said:


> I use a variety of "spellings"


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## Kathie (Mar 29, 2011)

Lina said:


> Do welfare recipeints pay withholding, ssi, sales tax on food purchases? I don't know...I'm asking. Do they pay taxes on their free phones and free minutes?


I have no idea about free phones but doubt there is withholding on ssi. Withholding would be taken out of their wages as would social security, and medicare taxes. There are many low income WORKING people who earn so little they get their withholding back at the end of the year. They would have to pay sales tax on anything everyone else has to pay tax on. The only people that are exempt from state sales taxes in WI are Native Americans and that is only on reservation property. They also don't have to pay gas tax at stations on the reservation. They also don't have to pay property taxes on some of their land. There are restrictions on that that take a Philadelphia lawyer to interpret. That is a real issue in the area I live. When you think of the social security and medicare withholding taken out of a paycheck on an income earner who makes $7.25 per hour it's huge. I've been very fortunate never to be in the position of trying to live on next to nothing so I'm not complaining that people who work hard for so little get a break. Which side of that fence would you rather be on.


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## Kathie (Mar 29, 2011)

Lina said:


> Do welfare recipeints pay withholding, ssi, sales tax on food purchases? I don't know...I'm asking. Do they pay taxes on their free phones and free minutes?


I have no idea about free phones but doubt there is withholding on ssi. Withholding would be taken out of their wages as would social security, and medicare taxes. There are many low income WORKING people who earn so little they get their withholding back at the end of the year. They would have to pay sales tax on anything everyone else has to pay tax on. The only people that are exempt from state sales taxes in WI are Native Americans and that is only on reservation property. They also don't have to pay gas tax at stations on the reservation. They also don't have to pay property taxes on some of their land. There are restrictions on that that take a Philadelphia lawyer to interpret. That is a real issue for some of the people in my area. When you think of the social security and medicare withholding taken out of a paycheck on an income earner who makes $7.25 per hour it's huge. I've been very fortunate never to be in the position of trying to live on next to nothing so I'm not complaining that people who work hard for so little get a break. Which side of that fence would you rather be on.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


Well bless your heart, aren't you the special one. Please stay in TX and if we are lucky your state will leave the U.S.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Lina said:


> Only in America could the rich people - who pay 86% of all income taxes - be accused of not paying their "fair share" by people who don't pay any income taxes at all.


Where do you get your numbers. Lina or is this just your own personal opinion?


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

CarolfromTX said:


> What about the people who pay no taxes at all? I'd love to go to a flat tax -- a percentage of income, so that everyone has some skin in the game, so to speak. Just how much of my income do you think the government is entitled to?


You don't even have a state tax in TX so what are you crying about. Texas, totally forgettable. You don't have good schools either and it shows.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> The problem with Warren Buffet is that he has NOT paid more in taxes, has he? He's all talk and no action on this topic. I haven't heard his super-rich friends stand up and say they want to pay more either. Although i did hear Donald Trump say he would be willing to pay more in taxes if he thought the government would spend it properly. I do not know if The Donald is a friend of Buffet's.


Dumb as a stump. TBBC


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> The problem with Warren Buffet is that he has NOT paid more in taxes, has he? He's all talk and no action on this topic. I haven't heard his super-rich friends stand up and say they want to pay more either. Although i did hear Donald Trump say he would be willing to pay more in taxes if he thought the government would spend it properly. I do not know if The Donald is a friend of Buffet's.


Once again, your post does not even make sense. Warren Buffet doesn't have any problems but you sure do. Donald Trump is an idiot who has filed bankruptcy many times so obviously he didn't spend his money properly did he so now he has the knowledge to determine how his tax dollars should be spent. Donald and that dead animal on his head should go crawl back into the hole he and his little buddy slithered out of.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


Carol good for you. I'll look and see if I have a big enough medal for you to put on that big old puffed out chest of your's. You sure love kissing up to the rich don't you. Do they pay you for that or do you do it for free?


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## medusa (Nov 20, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Once again, your post does not even make sense. Warren Buffet doesn't have any problems but you sure do. Donald Trump is an idiot who has filed bankruptcy many times so obviously he didn't spend his money properly did he so now he has the knowledge to determine how his tax dollars should be spent. Donald and that dead animal on his head should go crawl back into the hole he and his little buddy slithered out of.


We can always count on you, Cheeky!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

alcameron said:


> I use a variety of "spellings"


I'll just use this one so I don't confuse you, and I love love love this exclamation point in the little yellow ball, it looks like the South end of a Donkey going North. :!: :lol:


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## ladydog (Nov 21, 2011)

CarolfromTX said:


> What about the people who pay no taxes at all? I'd love to go to a flat tax -- a percentage of income, so that everyone has some skin in the game, so to speak. Just how much of my income do you think the government is entitled to?


Absolutely, but the wealthy make it sound like the bottom half will pay more.... not so. Boy am I with you. The trouble with our system is there are so many write offs where some wealthy people pay no taxes.


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## ladydog (Nov 21, 2011)

CarolfromTX said:


> What about the people who pay no taxes at all? I'd love to go to a flat tax -- a percentage of income, so that everyone has some skin in the game, so to speak. Just how much of my income do you think the government is entitled to?


Absolutely, but the wealthy make it sound like the bottom half will pay more.... not so. Boy am I with you. The trouble with our system is there are so many write offs where some wealthy people pay no taxes.


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

alcameron said:


> http://top-federal-tax-rates.findthedata.org/
> Musings:
> Check out how the tax rates for the rich have gone down over time.
> Rich people are not the only ones who work hard, are they?
> ...


Many rich people don't work at all? Neither do many of those who receive government benefits. When we import 10 to 15 MILLION poor people, of course the disparity grows wider. 
Did the Kennedy's grow rich off the backs of the poor? Maybe so...with their bootlegging.
How about Nancy Polisci? How about Steve Jobs? Bill Gates? John Kerry?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

galinipper said:


> I'll just use this one so I don't confuse you, and I love love love this exclamation point in the little yellow ball, it looks like the South end of a Donkey going North. :!: :lol:


Oyvey, oivey, oi weh, oy vay
My dear woman (oops, I almost said "lady"), I certainly don't think I could be confused by someone of your ilk, unless, of course, you think like Sarah Palin or Michele Bachmann---which could very well be.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Lina said:


> Many rich people don't work at all? Neither do many of those who receive government benefits. When we import 10 to 15 MILLION poor people, of course the disparity grows wider.
> Did the Kennedy's grow rich off the backs of the poor? Maybe so...with their bootlegging.
> How about Nancy Polisci? How about Steve Jobs? Bill Gates? John Kerry?


Do you really think we're importing the poor? We have no US citizens who are poor? Give me a break. I don't hear any of the rich people you name complaining about paying taxes, and if the rate goes up, they'll just have to pay what they owe. They can afford to pay more. Check out the tax rates for,the wealthy and what's happened to them over time.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> I did, The idea was the rich should pay more in taxes. Your thought expressed that Warren Buffet made the comment that he should pay more in taxes and so should his super rich friends. My reply to the idea was that Warren Buffet has not paid more in taxes and neither have his friends. All talk and no action.


Well, raise the rates and they'll pay their taxes. The super rich aren't the ones who are complaining, are they? Or are you one of them? Close some of the loopholes.


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> They don't get free minutes outside of what comes with the phone. Once they are gone, they pay for their own minutes. The reason they got the free phones was for emergency use.
> In this country we have always taken care of our poor and elderly.
> Some states do tax food, clothing, and prescriptions. I don't kno about anybody else, but my SSI is taxed.


i saw a TV interview with a man who had 5 free cell phone and 250 minutes. Maybe everytime his used up his minutes he got a new free phone with more minutes. 
I am not rich, but I have to pay for my phone. My retirement is also taxed.


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

Redhatchris said:


> The rich get richer because the poor get poorer.


That is like saying :
The fat get fatter, because the skinny get skinnier.
If Donald Trump lost all his money, it wouldn't make me a bit richer.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Lina said:


> i saw a TV interview with a man who had 5 free cell phone and 250 minutes. Maybe everytime his used up his minutes he got a new free phone with more minutes.
> I am not rich, but I have to pay for my phone. My retirement is also taxed.


My retirement is taxed and I pay for my phone, too. I'm not rich, I pay my taxes as a responsible citizen of the US. 
Are you jealous of the man with the cell phones?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

I am curious where other people get their information on economic issues. What economists you read and from what journals, magazines, online sites etc. 

I recently read articles by Richard Wolff and Manfred Max Neef.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Lina said:


> That is like saying :
> The fat get fatter, because the skinny get skinnier.
> If Donald Trump lost all his money, it wouldn't make me a bit richer.


Will someone please explain to me why s/he wants to protect the rich? Why doesn't anyone want to protect the poor?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> I am curious where other people get their information on economic issues. What economists you read and from what journals, magazines, online sites etc.
> 
> I recently read articles by Richard Wolff and Manfred Max Neef.


Read? You think people read?


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

alcameron said:


> You think your tax payment is confiscation of personal property? Good grief!


Yes it is confiscation of the worst sort. Your money is YOURS. You worked for or earned it some way. When the government takes your money, it is confiscating your property.


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> I did, The idea was the rich should pay more in taxes. Your thought expressed that Warren Buffet made the comment that he should pay more in taxes and so should his super rich friends. My reply to the idea was that Warren Buffet has not paid more in taxes and neither have his friends. All talk and no action.


Well said.


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## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

alcameron said:


> Oyvey, oivey, oi weh, oy vay
> My dear woman (oops, I almost said "lady"), I certainly don't think I could be confused by someone of your ilk, unless, of course, you think like Sarah Palin or Michele Bachmann---which could very well be.


So what was it that p p'd you off. Was it that you were enjoying calling people dumb-sses when you thought no one would notice or care. Was it the rear end of the donkey emblem I embedded in the post :!: I still just love love love it. You'll get over it, just move along in the same little path with the rest of your group of Laughable Little Liberals.


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## Kathie (Mar 29, 2011)

galinipper said:


> So what was it that p p'd you off. Was it that you were enjoying calling people dumb-sses when you thought no one would notice or care. Was it the rear end of the donkey emblem I embedded in the post :!: I still just love love love it. You'll get over it, just move along in the same little path with the rest of your group of Laughable Little Liberals.


Can't there be a discussion of issues without name calling? That just isn't necessary.


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

For the people who are snippy, there are topics that are better suited to your personality.
Read the puppy talk.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

galinipper said:


> So what was it that p p'd you off. Was it that you were enjoying calling people dumb-sses when you thought no one would notice or care. Was it the rear end of the donkey emblem I embedded in the post :!: I still just love love love it. You'll get over it, just move along in the same little path with the rest of your group of Laughable Little Liberals.


Ignore


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

galinipper said:


> I'll just use this one so I don't confuse you, and I love love love this exclamation point in the little yellow ball, it looks like the South end of a Donkey going North. :!: :lol:


Really? I thought that was your mouth


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> I am curious where other people get their information on economic issues. What economists you read and from what journals, magazines, online sites etc.
> 
> I recently read articles by Richard Wolff and Manfred Max Neef.


The information came from IRS, but it was a 2004 graph.
The top 1% paid 37%.
Wolff and Neef are both well known. Those who can't teach
and write about ideas. You read articles, but did you find any knowledge that would be useful in the real world?


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Do you really think we're importing the poor? We have no US citizens who are poor? Give me a break. I don't hear any of the rich people you name complaining about paying taxes, and if the rate goes up, they'll just have to pay what they owe. They can afford to pay more. Check out the tax rates for,the wealthy and what's happened to them over time.


Tax rates have gone up for the high earners.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Lina said:


> Yes it is confiscation of the worst sort. Your money is YOURS. You worked for or earned it some way. When the government takes your money, it is confiscating your property.


It's called paying taxes. That tax money goes to keep you and your"stuff" protected. It gives you roads to drive on and bridges to cross. It goes to make sure that the food you eat and the water you drink is not tainted and the air that you breathe is clean. Can you live without those things?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Ah Cherf is back! Ravelry get tired of your crap over there?


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Ah Cherf is back! Ravelry get tired of your crap over there?[/quote
> 
> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:      :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

So galinipper recognizes Bachmann as a dumb a..


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> doubt it is cherf , but we are all tried of your ---- over here, you and the rest of the dim whit lefters. Oh and remember you are not to use that kind of language on here. :twisted: :evil:


You are right, Yarnie. Cherf is a lot smarter. I did not use any kind of bad language here. Are you calling me a dim wit yarnie?
At least I can spell :twisted:


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> You are right, Yarnie. Cherf is a lot smarter. I did not use any kind of bad language here. Are you calling me a dim wit yarnie?
> At least I can spell :twisted:


really you can spell could have fooled all of us here. I know your theme song If I only had a Brain I can hear you humming it. Oh that's right that's your club house theme song.

I also love your banner held high YOU Can't fix stupid. I think that so fits you brat atty, and slupsusan, and must not forget cheeky chuck it. :idea:


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Lina said:


> The information came from IRS, but it was a 2004 graph.
> The top 1% paid 37%.
> Wolff and Neef are both well known. Those who can't teach
> and write about ideas. You read articles, but did you find any knowledge that would be useful in the real world?


i am unsure of your response is it the old saying "Those who can't.....whatever whatever...teach"?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> really you can spell could have fooled all of us here. I know your theme song If I only had a Brain I can hear you humming it. Oh that's right that's your club house theme song.
> 
> I also love your banner held high YOU Can't fix stupid. I think that so fits you brat atty, and slupsusan, and must not forget cheeky chuck it. :idea:


Oh my, arent you just vile tonight? Are you going to have another episode and start your vulgar name calling again?


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Lina said:


> The information came from IRS, but it was a 2004 graph.
> The top 1% paid 37%.
> Wolff and Neef are both well known. Those who can't teach
> and write about ideas. You read articles, but did you find any knowledge that would be useful in the real world?


We are under utilizing the skills people have here in this country by focusing on an outdated capitalist system that, it appears, you are fearful of giving up. It is time to begin looking at economics from an environmental and cooperative perspective. I have believed this for many years. I do not understand what the "rich" anti poor are afraid of. Maybe you can explain.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Oh my, arent you just vile tonight? Are you going to have another episode and start your vulgar name calling again?


nope not sorry to disappoint you , and vulgar gee how sweet of you just imitate you and the left of the falling off the cliff gang. You know the whole sweet loving kind giving helping sharing caring, we can save the whole world with our wise words and all must listen and only believe we have the answers, gang. Almost forgot Dum Air on that too. :twisted:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> nope not sorry to disappoint you , and vulgar gee how sweet of you just imitate you and the left of the falling off the cliff gang. You know the whole sweet loving kind giving helping sharing caring, we can save the whole world with our wise words and all must listen and only believe we have the answers, gang. Almost forgot Dum Air on that too. :twisted:


Gasp! I do believe you are jealous :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Lina said:


> Tax rates have gone up for the high earners.


No, check the tax rate link I posted earlier.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Most people think it looks like an elephant heading the same direction. Bye-bye.



galinipper said:


> I'll just use this one so I don't confuse you, and I love love love this exclamation point in the little yellow ball, it looks like the South end of a Donkey going North. :!: :lol:


----------



## sjrNC (Jul 30, 2012)

http://qz.com/74271/income-tax-rates-since-1913/

Inserting article and graph

US tax rates have changed wildly since 1913 when the current federal income tax program was first introduced. The above interactive chart shows the difference in rates over time, using data from the Tax Foundation. Enter your taxable incomewhat youve earned minus all of your deductions (not including capital gains)pick a filing status, and you can see your personal income tax history of the United States. The effective tax rate shown is what you pay in federal income taxes divided by your taxable income. It doesnt take into account credits or deductions you may be eligible for, nor does it reflect changes to your eligibility for tax breaks over the past century.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Even if you repeat this, I still can't figure out what you mean.



ladydog said:


> Absolutely, but the wealthy make it sound like the bottom half will pay more.... not so. Boy am I with you. The trouble with our system is there are so many write offs where some wealthy people pay no taxes.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And if all your friends were jumping off the roof, would you do it too?



Lina said:


> Many rich people don't work at all? Neither do many of those who receive government benefits. When we import 10 to 15 MILLION poor people, of course the disparity grows wider.
> Did the Kennedy's grow rich off the backs of the poor? Maybe so...with their bootlegging.
> How about Nancy Polisci? How about Steve Jobs? Bill Gates? John Kerry?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Oi weh! Ayn Rand is alive and yapping.



Lina said:


> Yes it is confiscation of the worst sort. Your money is YOURS. You worked for or earned it some way. When the government takes your money, it is confiscating your property.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

damemary said:


> Oi weh! Ayn Rand is alive and yapping.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Jog along with your greedy little friends pretending you're part of the 1%. We don't believe you.



galinipper said:


> So what was it that p p'd you off. Was it that you were enjoying calling people dumb-sses when you thought no one would notice or care. Was it the rear end of the donkey emblem I embedded in the post :!: I still just love love love it. You'll get over it, just move along in the same little path with the rest of your group of Laughable Little Liberals.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

This always happens. Are you new?



Kathie said:


> Can't there be a discussion of issues without name calling? That just isn't necessary.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ignored.



Lina said:


> The information came from IRS, but it was a 2004 graph.
> The top 1% paid 37%.
> Wolff and Neef are both well known. Those who can't teach
> and write about ideas. You read articles, but did you find any knowledge that would be useful in the real world?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Where did you find that information? What are the qualifiers?



Lina said:


> Tax rates have gone up for the high earners.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I knew it sounded familiar. Good sleuthing Patty.



BrattyPatty said:


> Ah Cherf is back! Ravelry get tired of your crap over there?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You know what happens when you get excited. Do you really want to go there? I'll just try to ignore your ignorance.



theyarnlady said:


> really you can spell could have fooled all of us here. I know your theme song If I only had a Brain I can hear you humming it. Oh that's right that's your club house theme song.
> 
> I also love your banner held high YOU Can't fix stupid. I think that so fits you brat atty, and slupsusan, and must not forget cheeky chuck it. :idea:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ignore for her safety.



theyarnlady said:


> nope not sorry to disappoint you , and vulgar gee how sweet of you just imitate you and the left of the falling off the cliff gang. You know the whole sweet loving kind giving helping sharing caring, we can save the whole world with our wise words and all must listen and only believe we have the answers, gang. Almost forgot Dum Air on that too. :twisted:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And I thought she was just dumb as a rock....



BrattyPatty said:


> Gasp! I do believe you are jealous :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

medusa said:


> We can always count on you, Cheeky!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Thanks, Medusa. I do my best.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Lina said:


> Yes it is confiscation of the worst sort. Your money is YOURS. You worked for or earned it some way. When the government takes your money, it is confiscating your property.


Lina you will fit in just fine with the rest of the crew on Denim and pearls. Where do you live anyway. you sure seem to be the product of a poor educational system and if you were privately schooled your parents sure didn't get their moneys. worth. You are a hoot! :-D :-D


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

galinipper said:


> I'll just use this one so I don't confuse you, and I love love love this exclamation point in the little yellow ball, it looks like the South end of a Donkey going North. :!: :lol:


Obviously, your eyesight is failing you darling. The back end of a donkey doesn't look like an explanation point. To be anatomically correct, the little dot on the bottom would not be visible to you as it is under the tail. I guess you just aren't too bright are you. :lol:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Many rich people don't work at all? Neither do many of those who receive government benefits. When we import 10 to 15 MILLION poor people, of course the disparity grows wider. 
Did the Kennedy's grow rich off the backs of the poor? Maybe so...with their bootlegging.
How about Nancy Polisci? How about Steve Jobs? Bill Gates? John Kerry?

Lina

Lina are you the Lina from the Ole and Lina jokes because you sure are funny. Oh no that is Ole and Lena, never mind. You still are funny though. What country were you imported from or are you Native American? Joe Kennedy sold bootleg so I don't think he grew rich off the backs of the poor. Had to pay Joe. The other's you named all had jobs, Lina so what's your point? Looks like somebody is a little confused. :lol:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Lina said:


> i saw a TV interview with a man who had 5 free cell phone and 250 minutes. Maybe everytime his used up his minutes he got a new free phone with more minutes.
> I am not rich, but I have to pay for my phone. My retirement is also taxed.


Wow Lina, that is so unfair. Bet you wish you had one of those phones don't you. It is so unfair isn't it? :-(


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

So what was it that p p'd you off. Was it that you were enjoying calling people dumb-sses when you thought no one would notice or care. Was it the rear end of the donkey emblem I embedded in the post I still just love love love it. You'll get over it, just move along in the same little path with the rest of your group of Laughable Little Liberals.

galinipper

Go play over on Denim and Pearls where they can bless you and cast that demon out of you. Why would a man your age want to come out here and spend your time with women? Don't you get enough attention at home or are you a single fellow? Straight or gay or like Marcus Bachmann, uncommitted?


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Lina said:


> For the people who are snippy, there are topics that are better suited to your personality.
> Read the puppy talk.


Snippy, that would be you Lina. :thumbdown:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Lina said:


> Yes it is confiscation of the worst sort. Your money is YOURS. You worked for or earned it some way. When the government takes your money, it is confiscating your property.


Lina why don't you self deported yourself to where ever it is you came from. Get along now. :lol:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> really you can spell could have fooled all of us here. I know your theme song If I only had a Brain I can hear you humming it. Oh that's right that's your club house theme song.
> 
> I also love your banner held high YOU Can't fix stupid. I think that so fits you brat atty, and slupsusan, and must not forget cheeky chuck it. :idea:


Yarnie go back home and play with your buddies. They understand you over there. We aren't buying what you are selling.


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## nuthouse (Oct 30, 2012)

Redhatchris said:


> The system is broke and broken and the folks we rely on to fix it are the ones who broke it in the first place.
> The Govt needs to be run the way we run our household budget. If you cannot afford it, don't buy it. If it isn't broken, don't fix it.
> The Government's system: If it ain't broke, fix it until it is!


Same happening here in Oz at the moment with our upcoming election and the Government/Opposition 'buying' votes.


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## elaineadams (Oct 17, 2011)

Lina said:


> Only in America could the rich people - who pay 86% of all income taxes - be accused of not paying their "fair share" by people who don't pay any income taxes at all.


...lol...I think it fair to say that this also happens in the UK...in fact, I heard a benefits claimant telling his mate that the government should increase income tax so that those on benefits could have more money to buy the things they desired...needless to say my friend had to put her hand over my mouth and pin me down in my seat!!!!


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## woodgirl (Jun 15, 2011)

I wonder how this country began to think that those who have money ought to give it to those that don't. In this country everyone has the ability to prosper and make as much as they are able. I have struggled all my life, but do not think that someone else who has more should take care of me. We all have the ability to better our lives.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

How about a disabled child? The elderly on fixed income? Please describe to me how they better their lives.



woodgirl said:


> I wonder how this country began to think that those who have money ought to give it to those that don't. In this country everyone has the ability to prosper and make as much as they are able. I have struggled all my life, but do not think that someone else who has more should take care of me. We all have the ability to better our lives.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Things they desire? Like a roof over their heads? Food? Medicine? What about need?



elaineadams said:


> ...lol...I think it fair to say that this also happens in the UK...in fact, I heard a benefits claimant telling his mate that the government should increase income tax so that those on benefits could have more money to buy the things they desired...needless to say my friend had to put her hand over my mouth and pin me down in my seat!!!!


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> They don't get free minutes outside of what comes with the phone. Once they are gone, they pay for their own minutes. The reason they got the free phones was for emergency use.
> In this country we have always taken care of our poor and elderly.
> Some states do tax food, clothing, and prescriptions. I don't kno about anybody else, but my SSI is taxed.


I beg to differ. We (taxpayers) have not always taken care of the poor and elderly. In the past, religious organizations did the needed charity work. Nobody has a right to be taken care of. That is a recent phenomenon that is bringing this country to its knees. My ancestors saved money to come to America or indentured themselves to get here. The did all means of work just to survive. No one gave them housing, transportation, or wealth. Some died poor, but left great families. Some grew wealthy by good decisions, moderate lifestyles, and saving what they earned. Some had good luck; some bad. But, nobody begged for a handout even though they could have used it. They lived long lives and family took care of them when they ran out of savings. They married because you couldn't survive without two individuals raising a family. They lived within their means.

Example: My great-grandmother was widowed with 3 step-sons and 6 sons to raise. Her boys each committed themselves to supporting her until they were 21. Then, she gladly went to live in a Baptist home as her husband had been a minister and the church took care of her. No Social Security, pension, welfare, Medicare, or other help. It was not the life she would have chosen, but she survived until she was 98 with good health.


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## leighanne1968 (Apr 10, 2011)

Who pays no taxes? I pay taxes on my social security and I've already paid on that money once!!


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## leighanne1968 (Apr 10, 2011)

And CarolfromTx, I paid attention in school, lived within my means. But I chose to defend our nation. And raised the first part of my family on that. I was qualified for food stamps but never applied. I made my dollar stretch even when I had 2 children in daycare. So I'm very happy for you're investments and your betterment but that does not make the taxation of our country right!


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## flohel (Jan 24, 2011)

Some people through no fault of their own ( yes really ) have a low paying job and a family to support. Supporting a family on $10-20 thousand can't be easy but some can do it.


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## flohel (Jan 24, 2011)

Some people through no fault of their own ( yes really ) have a low paying job and a family to support. Supporting a family on $10-20 thousand can't be easy but some can do it. If one researches the meaning of "liberal" It is something to be proud of. I do not know why some use it as a negative. Ignorance of the English language maybe?


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Your original quote is off. 86% of Americans pay taxes which includes the middle class and lower class workers. The 14% who do not don't earn enough money to pay taxes.


Like the Boston bombing brothers and their parents? Why do we pay non-citizens welfare? It would be cheaper if we didn't let them come here or stay unless they could support themselves. A coach ticket home would have been cheaper than 10 years of welfare payments.

I say let anyone come who can work and does work or who has money to survive without working. They should house themselves, feed their families, pay for their own health care, and have to pay taxes (higher rate for aliens to incentivize them to become a citizen and reimburse us for educating their children). If they can't make it here, they couldn't make it anywhere in the world.

Liberals are bankrupting this country because they want to "take care of everyone even aliens." This is a self-perpetuating problem that could be solved.


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## silvercharms (Mar 29, 2011)

It seems to me there are good, bad and indifferent in all levels of wealth.
Those who are poor through no fault of their own, and need our help; those who are 'poor' and live off others through laziness
Those on middle incomes who strive to make do, and those who go deep into debt
Those who are rich and provide employment, charity and leave the world a better place, and those rich who are spoilt and selfish.
You can't tar everyone with the same brush...


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

The liberals out there are all about "fairness",but they want "fairness" at someone elses expense. Then they get the nasty mouth and start name calling.


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## Jeanne618 (Apr 1, 2012)

Lina said:


> Only in America could the rich people - who pay 86% of all income taxes - be accused of not paying their "fair share" by people who don't pay any income taxes at all.


Amen......


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

damemary said:


> Then there are the ones who escape taxes all together while earning millions. Can you spell tax loophole?


But, the rich pay gas taxes, SSI taxes, property taxes, just like the poor who don't contribute to income taxes. In fact, the wealthy pay lots more of those taxes than the poor. Income taxes have come down because many wise leaders realized that heavily taxing the wealthy causes the economic system to stagnate. The wealthy hire people; the poor don't. When the wealthy stop hiring, the middle class will suffer job losses. The poor will lose the benefits they are receiving for free.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Well bless your heart, aren't you the special one. Please stay in TX and if we are lucky your state will leave the U.S.


She is a special one! She's one of the people paying taxes. She isn't expecting others to carry HER responsibilities.


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## leighanne1968 (Apr 10, 2011)

I guess I'm not setting how the poor don't pay taxes. What classifies poor? I was never "well off" but have been comfortable and able to support myself and 3 children, car payment, house payment, utilities, groceries and still be able to do at least 1 activity a month with the kids on $ 29k a year. My pay varied annually as I worked on an as needed basis. I was by no means even middle class.


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## leighanne1968 (Apr 10, 2011)

Right on, sister! Lol! :thumbup:



Knit crazy said:


> She is a special one! She's one of the people paying taxes. She isn't expecting others to carry HER responsibilities.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

alcameron said:


> Well, raise the rates and they'll pay their taxes. The super rich aren't the ones who are complaining, are they? Or are you one of them? Close some of the loopholes.


We should close loopholes, but we should start with the loophole thatet's anyone get out of paying income taxes. The only way you should get out of paying income taxes is if you have no income or government benefits.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

There are a couple other thoughts to consider. Let's take Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. How many employment opportunities did those two men create? Mr. Gates vision resulted in many of his employees becoming millionaires. The wealthy create jobs.

Secondly the wealthy contribute a great deal to charity, as do the corporations they created. 

Charitable contributions are one of those "loopholes" that everyone likes to talk about. Would you like the wealthy to NOT be so generous? 

I only have to look around the city that I live in, to see the generosity the wealthy have bestowed upon the citizens here. 

To say that the wealthy don't pay their fair share is not true. They pay in other ways, ways that most people are unable to. I certainly couldn't "donate" a school, a library, a building to a University, a "free clinic", etc..


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Kathie said:


> Can't there be a discussion of issues without name calling? That just isn't necessary.


But that is what liberals do when they can't win a discussion with logic.


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## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

Raybo said:


> Here we go again!!


Not on my dime! 'Bye 'bye!


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> It's called paying taxes. That tax money goes to keep you and your"stuff" protected. It gives you roads to drive on and bridges to cross. It goes to make sure that the food you eat and the water you drink is not tainted and the air that you breathe is clean. Can you live without those things?


Can the poor do without those thing? Everyone who benefits should co tribute.


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## Dakota Sun (May 25, 2011)

I agree with what RedhatChris posted.


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## obxamom (Apr 21, 2013)

Well, it seems to me that I is the hard working middle class married, business owners that get taxed to the poor house. We own our own business and we seem to be taxed for everything. The wealthy, they have money and so they also have ways of.hiding this money and many loop holes are created for the wealthy and the money. One only needs to look at the corruption of corporate America Enron, the big banks, the lending mortgage crisis, now you have the flip side, people who mooch off the system with an attitude of entitlement. Its the system that allows this, the government wants dependent peopleif you are dependent then you the government have control over the people. I have worker for the system and see the many clever ways very capable people take advantage of the system. I'm not saying that to be mean but just pointng out facts. Its the middle class married and single and small business owner that carries the weight of tax paying. I'm all for working hard and I'm also for helping people out. The system was there to help people out in need, but it has gotten out of control because we have created a generation of lazy, entitled, video gamelaying, instant gratification, spoon fed, unable to thank for themselves generation. Someone needs step up and say enough, you are going to work a d contribute to society in some fashion , pay some bit of taxes and then we will help you out. We are trillions in debt reason greed and lazyness combined. Sorry for he soap box lecture


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## Dakota Sun (May 25, 2011)

obxamom said:


> Well, it seems to me that I is the hard working middle class married, business owners that get taxed to the poor house. We own our own business and we seem to be taxed for everything. The wealthy, they have money and so they also have ways of.hiding this money and many loop holes are created for the wealthy and the money. One only needs to look at the corruption of corporate America Enron, the big banks, the lending mortgage crisis, now you have the flip side, people who mooch off the system with an attitude of entitlement. Its the system that allows this, the government wants dependent peopleif you are dependent then you the government have control over the people. I have worker for the system and see the many clever ways very capable people take advantage of the system. I'm not saying that to be mean but just pointng out facts. Its the middle class married and single and small business owner that carries the weight of tax paying. I'm all for working hard and I'm also for helping people out. The system was there to help people out in need, but it has gotten out of control because we have created a generation of lazy, entitled, video gamelaying, instant gratification, spoon fed, unable to thank for themselves generation. Someone needs step up and say enough, you are going to work a d contribute to society in some fashion , pay some bit of taxes and then we will help you out. We are trillions in debt reason greed and lazyness combined. Sorry for he soap box lecture


I agree with you.
DakotaSun


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## mzmom1 (Mar 4, 2011)

CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Oh my, arent you just vile tonight? Are you going to have another episode and start your vulgar name calling again?


BrattyPatty, you started the fight. You are nasty when logic fails you. You like your L.O.L.L. site on this forum because you all agree with each other. Real debate causes you to degenerate into a snarling wolf attacking rather than providing cogent arguments.


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## indices (Oct 7, 2011)

We never know where life will take us.Bad decisions may not be decisions at all. Look around your friends do they always get what they deserve, cause not.

Indices


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> We are under utilizing the skills people have here in this country by focusing on an outdated capitalist system that, it appears, you are fearful of giving up. It is time to begin looking at economics from an environmental and cooperative perspective. I have believed this for many years. I do not understand what the "rich" anti poor are afraid of. Maybe you can explain.


This sounds like communist rhetoric. That certainly hasn't worked well for anyone. It is a failed economic model. Capitism works well when isn't hamstrung by progressive socialist policies.


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## marylin (Apr 2, 2011)

If we can afford to knit we are all rich ! Rich has different meanings to me.


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## Catladysher (Nov 7, 2012)

All I have seen since the recession is prices go up for everything despite the fact that people have lost their jobs, homes etc. When times are this hard on people why is it everyone--Doctors, Veterinarians, anyone that has a service you need jacks up their prices so that one has to decide if they can or cannot afford a service. Point in fact...it used to cost $200.00 to have my cat's teeth cleaned. Times are hard, but now the vet wants a bit over $400.00...so I shopped around and yes, they are on the same page. Another item put on the back burner...and I do take really good care of my ladies, but this is ridiculous. So--taxes..how much further can the middle class be squeezed...and do we really have a middle class anymore? The vet's receptionist told me to save up for my cat's cleaning...huh??? I am on a fixed income..I did save up for her teeth...you all raised the price by double...and then our taxes are increased on everything it seems...never felt so pressed..


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## CarolfromTX (Nov 30, 2011)

indices said:


> We never know where life will take us.Bad decisions may not be decisions at all. Look around your friends do they always get what they deserve, cause not.
> 
> Indices


The choices you make determine the life you lead. Things happen to people that are unfortunate or unforeseeable, but it is an individual's choice how to deal with it. Those choices define who we are. And the sad fact is that many people make bad choices, time after time.


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## toknitornot (Aug 1, 2012)

Your perspective is directly proportional to which end of the money train you are on. Every point made is valid, but not everyone on the low end made bad decisions, and not everyone on the high end worked hard.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

damemary said:


> Even if you repeat this, I still can't figure out what you mean.


The reader you were responding to does not understand economics. If you go to a flat tax rate, it be equitable based on income. Those who now pay no income taxes will pay something. The wealthy will only pay more income tax per $ earned if loopholes are eliminated.

Liberals get all worked up about Warren Buffet paying less % of income than someone who works for him. He shelters his income as allowed and uses loopholes. Maybe he should have counseled his high-paid secretary on how to do that too? Or, she should have asked?

Also, we don't tax income and capital gains at the same rate. Warren's income was taxed as capital gains because he put his income into tax sheltered investments and has saved enough to live on. Many countries don't tax capital gains at all or tax it at much lower rates. We can't control what other countries do, but our higher capital gains rate causes smart people with money to move money to investments in the lower rate countries.


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## medusa (Nov 20, 2012)

obxamom said:


> Well, it seems to me that I is the hard working middle class married, business owners that get taxed to the poor house. We own our own business and we seem to be taxed for everything. The wealthy, they have money and so they also have ways of.hiding this money and many loop holes are created for the wealthy and the money. One only needs to look at the corruption of corporate America Enron, the big banks, the lending mortgage crisis, now you have the flip side, people who mooch off the system with an attitude of entitlement. Its the system that allows this, the government wants dependent peopleif you are dependent then you the government have control over the people. I have worker for the system and see the many clever ways very capable people take advantage of the system. I'm not saying that to be mean but just pointng out facts. Its the middle class married and single and small business owner that carries the weight of tax paying. I'm all for working hard and I'm also for helping people out. The system was there to help people out in need, but it has gotten out of control because we have created a generation of lazy, entitled, video gamelaying, instant gratification, spoon fed, unable to thank for themselves generation. Someone needs step up and say enough, you are going to work a d contribute to society in some fashion , pay some bit of taxes and then we will help you out. We are trillions in debt reason greed and lazyness combined. Sorry for he soap box lecture


For those who believe that corporations pay their fair share please read below. It is the page from VT Senator Bernie Sanders 4/25/13 issue of his email newsletter:

"Here is a list of 15 large profitable corporations that have used
offshore tax havens to avoid paying U.S. income taxes:
1. Bank of America
In 2010, Bank of America set up more than
200 subsidiaries in the Cayman Islands (which has a corporate
tax rate of 0.0 percent) to avoid paying U.S. taxes.
It worked. Not only did Bank of America pay nothing in federal
income taxes, but it received a rebate from the IRS worth $1.9
billion that year.
During the financial crisis, Bank of America received more than $1.3 trillion in total financial assistance from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department.

2. JP Morgan Chase
In 2010, JP Morgan Chase operated 83 subsidiaries incorporated in offshore tax havens to avoid paying $4.9 billion in U.S. taxes.
During the financial crisis, JPMorgan Chase received more than $400 billion in financial assistance from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department.

3. Goldman Sachs
In 2010, Goldman Sachs operated 39 subsidiaries in offshore tax havens to avoid an estimated $3.3 billion in U.S. taxes. During the financial crisis, Goldman Sachs received more than $800 billion in financial assistance from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department.

4.Citigroup
Citigroup has paid no federal income taxes for the last five years after receiving a total of $2.5 trillion in financial assistance from the Federal Reserve duringthe financial crisis and establishing at least 25 subsidiaries in offshore tax havens.

5.General Electric.
During the last five years, General Electric made $81 billion in profits.Not only has General Electric avoided paying federal income taxes during these years, it received a tax rebate of $3 billion from the IRS. General Electric has at least 14 offshore subsidiaries in Bermuda, Singapore, and Luxembourg for the purpose of avoiding U.S. income taxes. General Electric has stockpiled more than $100 billion offshore. If we eliminated offshore tax abuse, General Electric would have paid $35.7 billion more in federal income taxes in recent years. During the financial crisis, General Electric received a $16 billion taxpayer bailout from the IRS.

6.Verizon
During the last five years, Verizon made over $48 billion in profits.
Not only has Verizon avoided paying federal income taxes during those years, it received a $535 million rebate from the IRS.
Verizon has stockpiled $1.5 billion in offshore tax havens to avoid paying U.S. income taxes.If offshore tax abuse was eliminated, Verizon would owe an estimated $525 million to the IRS. In 2010, Verizon announced 13,000 job cuts, the third highest corporate layoff total that year.

7. Honeywell International.
From 2008 through 2010, not only did Honeywell avoid paying federal income taxes, it received a $34 million tax refund from the IRS, even though it earned over $4.9 billion in U.S. profits during those years. Honeywell has stockpiled $8.1 billion in 
offshore tax havens to avoid paying U.S. income taxes. If we eliminated offshore tax abuse, Honeywell would owe an estimated $2.8 billion in federal income taxes.

8. Merck
In 2009, not only did Merck pay no federal income taxes, it received a $55 million tax refund from the IRS, even though it earned more than $5.7 billion in U.S. profits.
Merck has stashed $44.3 billion in offshore tax haven countries to
avoid paying income taxes. If this practice was eliminated, Merck would have paid $15.5 billion more in federal income taxes.

9.Corning
From 2008 through 2010, not only did Corning pay no federal income taxes, it received a $4 million tax refund from the IRS, even though it earned nearly $2 billion in U.S. profits during those years. Corning has stashed $10.8 billion in offshore tax havens to avoid paying U.S. income taxes. Corning would owe an estimated $3.78 billion in federal income taxes if its use of offshore tax avoidance was eliminated.

10.Boeing
Over the past 5 years, Boeing has made over $21 billion in
profits. Not only has it avoided paying federal income taxes on those profits, it received a $23 million tax rebate from the IRS.
Boeing would owe an estimated $66 million more in federal income taxes if its use of offshore tax avoidance was
eliminated.

11.Microsoft
Microsoft has stashed over $60 billion in offshore tax haven countries like Bermuda, the Cayman Islands, and Switzerland to avoid paying income taxes. If Microsofts use of offshore tax avoidance was eliminated, it would have paid an estimated 19.4 billion more in federal income taxes.

12.Qualcomm 
Qualcomm has stashed $16.4 billion in offshore tax haven countries to avoid paying income taxes. If this practice was outlawed, it would have paid $5.8 billion more infederal income taxes.

13. Caterpillar
Caterpillar has stashed $13 billion in offshore tax havens to avoid paying U.S. income taxes.Caterpillar would owe an estimated $4.55 billion in federal income taxes if its use of offshore tax avoidance was eliminated.

14.Cisco Systems
Cisco has stashed $41.3 billion in offshore tax havens to avoid paying U.S. income taxes. Cisco would owe an estimated $14.455 billion in federal income taxes if its use of offshore tax avoidance was eliminated.

15. Dow Chemical.
Dow Chemical has stashed $10 billion in offshore tax havens to avoid paying U.S. income taxes. Dow would owe an estimated $3.5 billion in federal income taxes if its use of offshore tax avoidance was eliminated."


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## knittynatl. (Jan 12, 2013)

CarolfromTX, I agree with the flat tax idea too


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## Katsch (Mar 15, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> The reader you were responding to does not understand economics. If you go to a flat tax rate, it be equitable based on income. Those who now pay no income taxes will pay something. The wealthy will only pay more income tax per $ earned if loopholes are eliminated.
> 
> Liberals get all worked up about Warren Buffet paying less % of income than someone who works for him. He shelters his income as allowed and uses loopholes. Maybe he should have counseled his high-paid secretary on how to do that too? Or, she should have asked?
> 
> Also, we don't tax income and capital gains at the same rate. Warren's income was taxed as capital gains because he put his income into tax sheltered investments and has saved enough to live on. Many countries don't tax capital gains at all or tax it at much lower rates. We can't control what other countries do, but our higher capital gains rate causes smart people with money to move money to investments in the lower rate countries.


Exactly correct.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

damemary said:


> How about a disabled child? The elderly on fixed income? Please describe to me how they better their lives.


The disabled child is the responsibility of the parents. Charities so help parents. The elderly on fixed incomes and no savings get public assistance Medicare and Social Security. Some have military pensions they aren't utilizing or knowledgeable about. If they waited to save for retirement until old age counting on you and me to help, they made a poor decision. I worked hard and saved. I am on a fixed income. But, I never expected to ask someone else to help me.


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## ElyseKnox (Sep 16, 2011)

When people vote who pay no taxes we are being taxed without representation--the very thing our forefathers fought against.


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## Muffin lady (Mar 31, 2013)

I get tired of the "entitlement" mentality! I too have worked since I was 15, gone to school and continue to work full time, live within my means and manage to live a pretty good life without having received any government help! We should require people to "earn" what they receive. What a concept!


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## Mariever (Jan 15, 2012)

I do not resent rich people. They are the ones who keepnthe economy going by using there own money and investments to provide jobs and build infrastructures for the country. If they get a tax break good for them 
They are putting there money and effort in line to keep this country great. 
I have never seen a more generous group of multi billionares as the american rich. 
Mariever


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Like the Boston bombing brothers and their parents? Why do we pay non-citizens welfare? It would be cheaper if we didn't let them come here or stay unless they could support themselves. A coach ticket home would have been cheaper than 10 years of welfare payments.
> 
> I say let anyone come who can work and does work or who has money to survive without working. They should house themselves, feed their families, pay for their own health care, and have to pay taxes (higher rate for aliens to incentivize them to become a citizen and reimburse us for educating their children). If they can't make it here, they couldn't make it anywhere in the world.
> 
> Liberals are bankrupting this country because they want to "take care of everyone even aliens." This is a self-perpetuating problem that could be solved.


Are you talking about those tax supported muslum terrorist 
who were on the FBI watch list? This stinks as much as the Bengazi affair.


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## maur1011 (Jul 25, 2011)

This has touched a nerve. Let me see if I have this right...

After working hard in grade/high school, perhaps taking out loans to attend college, you studying your butt off, and work your butt off (often at the same time) to get a decent job to support yourself and your family (and paying your taxes along the way). Along comes the government to tell you that you are not doing your part. Somehow, you have become guilty of being successful.

I will be the first to agree that there are many people who deserve to have a hand up (I was once one of them). However, there are now generations in the same family who have been collecting welfare, etc--it has become a way of life. For the person who wants to succeed, it can be done. Welfare is not a career. 

What if we all (including the rich) decided not to work anymore. Who do you think would be paying those taxes?

And, we have enough Americans who need a hand up. For heaven's sake, stop inviting foreigners in to give away my hard-earned money. We don't need to take in 'boarders'!


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Many rich people don't work at all? Neither do many of those who receive government benefits. When we import 10 to 15 MILLION poor people, of course the disparity grows wider.
> Did the Kennedy's grow rich off the backs of the poor? Maybe so...with their bootlegging.
> How about Nancy Polisci? How about Steve Jobs? Bill Gates? John Kerry?
> 
> ...


Kennedy was a capitalist. He found a product and supplied it, albeit an illegal product. He evaded taxes on the liquor though. That would be growing rich off the backs of the poorer folks who paid their taxes. and those who were toting his liquor


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## knittynatl. (Jan 12, 2013)

I certainly do get taxed on my SSI


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## ElyseKnox (Sep 16, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Kennedy was a capitalist. He found a product and supplied it, albeit an illegal product. He evaded taxes on the liquor though. That would be growing rich off the backs of the poorer folks who paid their taxes. and those who were toting his liquor


Sounds as if you are trying to "damn" all rich people because of one rich person doing something illegal. Illegal behavior arises out of the heart and is found in all levels of society. The person intent on it uses the means at hand whether it be money, a gun, a knife, a pressure cook, a bat, a wire (garrot). Having money does not make one evil nor does it mean that it was acquired by evil means.


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## pamgillies1 (Aug 6, 2011)

Happens in the UK also!!!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

But we do tar everyone through our prejudices.



silvercharms said:


> It seems to me there are good, bad and indifferent in all levels of wealth.
> Those who are poor through no fault of their own, and need our help; those who are 'poor' and live off others through laziness
> Those on middle incomes who strive to make do, and those who go deep into debt
> Those who are rich and provide employment, charity and leave the world a better place, and those rich who are spoilt and selfish.
> You can't tar everyone with the same brush...


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## knittynatl. (Jan 12, 2013)

Muffin lady said:


> I get tired of the "entitlement" mentality! I too have worked since I was 15, gone to school and continue to work full time, live within my means and manage to live a pretty good life without having received any government help! We should require people to "earn" what they receive. What a concept!


Amen to that


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Do you really believe this?



Knit crazy said:


> BrattyPatty, you started the fight. You are nasty when logic fails you. You like your L.O.L.L. site on this forum because you all agree with each other. Real debate causes you to degenerate into a snarling wolf attacking rather than providing cogent arguments.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you. Does this bother any of you?



medusa said:


> For those who believe that corporations pay their fair share please read below. It is the page from VT Senator Bernie Sanders 4/25/13 issue of his email newsletter:
> 
> "Here is a list of 15 large profitable corporations that have used
> offshore tax havens to avoid paying U.S. income taxes:
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

A flat tax is similar to believing the earth is flat. That idea hung around for a long time too.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I wish I didn't have to read all the pats on the back. Oh, I don't.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ignored.



Knit crazy said:


> The disabled child is the responsibility of the parents. Charities so help parents. The elderly on fixed incomes and no savings get public assistance Medicare and Social Security. Some have military pensions they aren't utilizing or knowledgeable about. If they waited to save for retirement until old age counting on you and me to help, they made a poor decision. I worked hard and saved. I am on a fixed income. But, I never expected to ask someone else to help me.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh yeah....our forefathers.



ElyseKnox said:


> When people vote who pay no taxes we are being taxed without representation--the very thing our forefathers fought against.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

ElyseKnox said:


> Sounds as if you are trying to "damn" all rich people because of one rich person doing something illegal. Illegal behavior arises out of the heart and is found in all levels of society. The person intent on it uses the means at hand whether it be money, a gun, a knife, a pressure cook, a bat, a wire (garrot). Having money does not make one evil nor does it mean that it was acquired by evil means.


She was just quoting another lady who said that the Kennedys gave more to help the poor. HIs son's did help the poor, but this man also used inside trading on the stock market to make money. In other words he obtain his money through the backs of others who were honest.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Have you looked around in the last decade as the middle class's buying power stagnated while the top 1% owned all the assets?



Mariever said:


> I do not resent rich people. They are the ones who keepnthe economy going by using there own money and investments to provide jobs and build infrastructures for the country. If they get a tax break good for them
> They are putting there money and effort in line to keep this country great.
> I have never seen a more generous group of multi billionares as the american rich.
> Mariever


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

CarolfromTX said:


> The choices you make determine the life you lead. Things happen to people that are unfortunate or unforeseeable, but it is an individual's choice how to deal with it. Those choices define who we are. And the sad fact is that many people make bad choices, time after time.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

damemary said:


> Things they desire? Like a roof over their heads? Food? Medicine? What about need?


People in need get housing assistance, food stamps, and Medicaid. She's talking about welfare recipients using their benefits to buy I-Pads and liquor. Anytime you get something for free you don't appreciate it and often use it unwisely because you don't earn it. I have seen this phenomenon with well-off teenagers. Give them everything they need, and they never learn the value of money. Ask them to pay for some of their needs, and they suddenly realize how many hours it takes to buy a car, or insurance to drive it.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> The reader you were responding to does not understand economics. If you go to a flat tax rate, it be equitable based on income. Those who now pay no income taxes will pay something. The wealthy will only pay more income tax per $ earned if loopholes are eliminated.
> 
> Liberals get all worked up about Warren Buffet paying less % of income than someone who works for him. He shelters his income as allowed and uses loopholes. Maybe he should have counseled his high-paid secretary on how to do that too? Or, she should have asked?
> 
> Also, we don't tax income and capital gains at the same rate. Warren's income was taxed as capital gains because he put his income into tax sheltered investments and has saved enough to live on. Many countries don't tax capital gains at all or tax it at much lower rates. We can't control what other countries do, but our higher capital gains rate causes smart people with money to move money to investments in the lower rate countries.


you lady have the common sense that most on here seem to agree with.


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## Dlclose (Jun 26, 2011)

Lina said:


> Nolan Finleys column in the Detroit News comparing paying for milk and paying for taxes, based on an analysis a reader (corporate lawyer Jon Taub) provided:If every U.S. taxpayer purchased a gallon of milk, each person would pay $2.49, and the total cost would be 140.5 million times $2.49  or $349 million.
> 
> Now lets assume the government treated milk like government services and determined its price the same way it determines tax rates. The pricing would change as follows:
> 
> ...


Verrrry interesting!( from Laugh In)


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> The reader you were responding to does not understand economics. If you go to a flat tax rate, it be equitable based on income. Those who now pay no income taxes will pay something. The wealthy will only pay more income tax per $ earned if loopholes are eliminated.
> 
> Liberals get all worked up about Warren Buffet paying less % of income than someone who works for him. He shelters his income as allowed and uses loopholes. Maybe he should have counseled his high-paid secretary on how to do that too? Or, she should have asked?
> 
> Also, we don't tax income and capital gains at the same rate. Warren's income was taxed as capital gains because he put his income into tax sheltered investments and has saved enough to live on. Many countries don't tax capital gains at all or tax it at much lower rates. We can't control what other countries do, but our higher capital gains rate causes smart people with money to move money to investments in the lower rate countries.


No Dame Mary you can't understand, as all you know what to do Lily is rant and call others names, when they tell their feeling's . You contirbute nothing, other than ranting and name calling.


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## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilifien'd by the liberals.


I don't mean to make a arguement start here with your statement, but the poor or people that do not have as much and are having to have assistance or scrape is not due always to poor planning. It could have been loss of job and having to take a job in lessser pay. We all know about that. Or a medical problem that they have that they cannot work and have medical bills that have taken them down. We all are aware that SSI and Medicade don't pay much and retirement is not a whole lot either. So I am just saying that there are reason why the poor are poor right now and not just because they didn't pay attention in school or their upbringing. It is something that happened and we read about it all the time from members here on KP. Fixed incomes, illness, etc.


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## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

Redhatchris said:


> The system is broke and broken and the folks we rely on to fix it are the ones who broke it in the first place.
> The Govt needs to be run the way we run our household budget. If you cannot afford it, don't buy it. If it isn't broken, don't fix it.
> The Government's system: If it ain't broke, fix it until it is!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

pamgillies1 said:


> Happens in the UK also!!!


I agree it is happen in all the European countries too. Where is the fairness when some work hard for what they have, and become the people who have to pay for those who can and refuse to work for it. It is not just the rich who are now paying for it, it is everyone who work hard for what they have. But the liberals in this country seem to think we should pay to the point that we become the poor too. I wonder what they really will say when their money is going out instead of coming in.


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## jheiens (Jan 20, 2011)

Raybo said:


> Here we go again!!


Amen to that sister!!!


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Catladysher said:


> All I have seen since the recession is prices go up for everything despite the fact that people have lost their jobs, homes etc. When times are this hard on people why is it everyone--Doctors, Veterinarians, anyone that has a service you need jacks up their prices so that one has to decide if they can or cannot afford a service. Point in fact...it used to cost $200.00 to have my cat's teeth cleaned. Times are hard, but now the vet wants a bit over $400.00...so I shopped around and yes, they are on the same page. Another item put on the back burner...and I do take really good care of my ladies, but this is ridiculous. So--taxes..how much further can the middle class be squeezed...and do we really have a middle class anymore? The vet's receptionist told me to save up for my cat's cleaning...huh??? I am on a fixed income..I did save up for her teeth...you all raised the price by double...and then our taxes are increased on everything it seems...never felt so pressed..


I understand how you feel. Inflation is occurring in some places in the economy. That vet probably is self-employed. That means he/she is now factoring in the cost of Obamacare for employees and self. Gas is going up because Obama hates the industry and is over-regulating it and coal. Food is going up because of energy costs too. I'm lucky that I have space for a garden. It helps cut our food costs.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


Carol
Poor decisions: You paid attention in school...what about a child who, through no fault of his/her own is born into a family that lives in an area where there are nightly disturbances that rob a child of sleep and needed rest (remember the child not the adult in the family) they go to school not rested, possibly not well fed (brain needs good food for energy) and generally not well prepared to pay attention. This child is a possible result of:
Having a child out of marriage: Rape, incest, and yes, possibly seeking solace in sex, any resulting in pregnancy...they continue the pregnancy (do not believe in abortion or no abortion services available) and make the "unwise decision" to keep baby and maybe they have no education ie did not finish high school because they A. dropped out and got a minimum wage job (poor decision?)or B. just could not bear to give child up (poor decision?) So this child progresses through school with these issues, but does not quite make the grade and s/he doe not break the cycle s/he was born into ..poor decisions continue. What obligations do we as a society have to assist the child and mother? You tell me your opinion, because I do not want to assume your answer.

Your next point: I married and stayed married and had children in marriage. Question were you ever physically abused in your marriage. Possibly no? Wonderful, I am glad for you. What about the woman who is abused in her marriage and does not "stay for the economic good" of the children and herself? Poor decision? She does not have a support base of family or church to assist her at this time with job hunting, childcare, etc. Poor decision to leave? What do we as a community do? 
Living within my/ the means. What are the means of living of the above examples of real life? Very limited income with few or no chances of breaking out of the cycle of poverty (or in your words bad decisions)? The local church will help...will the local church help send mom to school or tech training, and provide childcare while she is at school/training and working her minimum wage job? If so then great for the community and her...,but wait there are more than just one of these families...does the church or local charity group have enough resources to assist all these women and children who made poor decisions? Yes well that is grand what about the community that does not? What do we as a society do? Do we perpetuate the cycle?
Carol I do volunteer work with families who lives are a variation of this scenario on a regular basis they do not want YOUR MONEY they need assistance and want to work and earn and make life better for their children. What do we as a society do to help them?
There are community agencies that assist. They have a battle to find funding. 
They need assistance to provide help with housing and basic necessities and let me tell you in reality THERE IS NOT ENOUGH community (church or private donations)
to fund these agencies. Please tell me what you would do.


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## medusa (Nov 20, 2012)

sam0767 said:


> I don't mean to make a arguement start here with your statement, but the poor or people that do not have as much and are having to have assistance or scrape is not due always to poor planning. It could have been loss of job and having to take a job in lessser pay. We all know about that. Or a medical problem that they have that they cannot work and have medical bills that have taken them down. We all are aware that SSI and Medicade don't pay much and retirement is not a whole lot either. So I am just saying that there are reason why the poor are poor right now and not just because they didn't pay attention in school or their upbringing. It is something that happened and we read about it all the time from members here on KP. Fixed incomes, illness, etc.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: , You certainly hit the nail on the head, dear reader! For many, a devastating illness can be the beginning of a family's downslide into poverty.


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## Shelly51 (Dec 29, 2012)

I'm just tired of watching a family member get thousands in food stamps, and Medicaid, sit around refusing to work but boy she has a cell phone, cable tv, Internet and she smokes, and she has a car all on the backs of hard working people!


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## Shelly51 (Dec 29, 2012)

I so agree!


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## Bridgitis (Aug 8, 2011)

Could it be possible that they actually earned it and perhaps created a few hundred jobs at the same time?Think about it.
Phyllis


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

sam0767 said:


> I don't mean to make a arguement start here with your statement, but the poor or people that do not have as much and are having to have assistance or scrape is not due always to poor planning. It could have been loss of job and having to take a job in lessser pay. We all know about that. Or a medical problem that they have that they cannot work and have medical bills that have taken them down. We all are aware that SSI and Medicade don't pay much and retirement is not a whole lot either. So I am just saying that there are reason why the poor are poor right now and not just because they didn't pay attention in school or their upbringing. It is something that happened and we read about it all the time from members here on KP. Fixed incomes, illness, etc.


I don't think she meant the poor the really poor who need help she like the rest of us aare sick of paying for the so called poor who want the goverment to pay for their life style with out working for any of it. They have live off it and feel they are intitled to continue recieving it. People in this country who work feel that it is time they get off their duff's and work.

We had a governor in this state that put into place the welfare to work law. It called for able body people who should and could work to work or welfare payments were cut off. I wish you could have seen how many all of a sudden could work. They then had their welfare payments cut, to match what they had earned working. They still recieved welfare but at a lower rate. Some even went out and got full time jobs. Funny how it works , if you have can work, then when threaten with lost of free money, you get to work.


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## Katsch (Mar 15, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> The disabled child is the responsibility of the parents. Charities so help parents. The elderly on fixed incomes and no savings get public assistance Medicare and Social Security. Some have military pensions they aren't utilizing or knowledgeable about. If they waited to save for retirement until old age counting on you and me to help, they made a poor decision. I worked hard and saved. I am on a fixed income. But, I never expected to ask someone else to help me.


Knit crazy you and I think exactly the same way. When my husband and I started our business we waited to start our family so we would have enough money. I worked two jobs so we could pay for our house. We saved for our children's education by saving as soon as they were born, by the time they were ready for college the money was there. Hard work and saving has become passé. The new norm is to let the government pay for it, in turn comes from those paying taxes.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Shelly51 said:


> I'm just tired of watching a family member get thousands in food stamps, and Medicaid, sit around refusing to work but boy she has a cell phone, cable tv, Internet and she smokes, and she has a car all on the backs of hard working people!


Please find out the name of this person and report them for fraud! I am betting you may not really know this individual.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

damemary said:


> Do you really believe this?


yes we do, you and most of your group feel if someone doesn't get in line and agree with all you say, should be a target for nasty comments, and cause more mayhem then put forth any thing of worth.


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## skkp (Feb 13, 2011)

ladydog said:


> Do you mean the same 4% that own everything and each pay less than % of taxes than the worker who makes $58,000/year? Those people?


NO generally its the people who run their own businesses, take risks, get educated and provide products and services other people want to buy and oh by the way hire employees -- those people.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Carol
> Poor decisions: You paid attention in school...what about a child who, through no fault of his/her own is born into a family that lives in an area where there are nightly disturbances that rob a child of sleep and needed rest (remember the child not the adult in the family) they go to school not rested, possibly not well fed (brain needs good food for energy) and generally not well prepared to pay attention. This child is a possible result of:
> Having a child out of marriage: Rape, incest, and yes, possibly seeking solace in sex, any resulting in pregnancy...they continue the pregnancy (do not believe in abortion or no abortion services available) and make the "unwise decision" to keep baby and maybe they have no education ie did not finish high school because they A. dropped out and got a minimum wage job (poor decision?)or B. just could not bear to give child up (poor decision?) So this child progresses through school with these issues, but does not quite make the grade and s/he doe not break the cycle s/he was born into ..poor decisions continue. What obligations do we as a society have to assist the child and mother? You tell me your opinion, because I do not want to assume your answer.
> 
> ...


help them until they get back on their feet, not help them to the point that they live on welfare the rest of their lives. They already have enough to start over,education free, food free, more free than most of us will see in our life times.


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## Katsch (Mar 15, 2011)

skkp said:


> NO generally its the people who run their own businesses, take risks, get educated and provide products and services other people want to buy and oh by the way hire employees -- those people.


Yes, us people, who by the way are reluctant to hire new people and provide needed jobs these days.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

toknitornot said:


> Your perspective is directly proportional to which end of the money train you are on. Every point made is valid, but not everyone on the low end made bad decisions, and not everyone on the high end worked hard.


True, luck factors in, but where does the expectation come from that it is my responsibility or the governments when someone is unlucky. Each person needs to plan their life. 
- Don't get married until you can afford it.
- Don't have children if you can't afford it.
- Don't buy a new house you can afford only if you are lucky.
- Look for economies every day (how you can do something cheaper).
- Save first, then play or buy something.

The generation that went through the Depression had a motto - Wear it out, use it up, make it do. The Greatest Generation's motto was - Waste not, want not. Mine is - There is a difference between wants and needs, and it's important to know the difference.

The problem is today's generation just says, "I want it, I need it, and you should give it to me because I don't want to wait for it." Our president ascribes to this philosophy.


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## gigi 722 (Oct 25, 2011)

CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


AMEN..you are so right..I still work and will be 76 in July. I am tired of giving to those who "can't" because of whatever the excuse of the moment happens to be.


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## CarolfromTX (Nov 30, 2011)

sam0767 said:


> I don't mean to make a arguement start here with your statement, but the poor or people that do not have as much and are having to have assistance or scrape is not due always to poor planning. It could have been loss of job and having to take a job in lessser pay. We all know about that. Or a medical problem that they have that they cannot work and have medical bills that have taken them down. We all are aware that SSI and Medicade don't pay much and retirement is not a whole lot either. So I am just saying that there are reason why the poor are poor right now and not just because they didn't pay attention in school or their upbringing. It is something that happened and we read about it all the time from members here on KP. Fixed incomes, illness, etc.


You're right, of course, that some people just can't make it on their own. I was speaking in generalities, and I still believe that the vast majority of poor people are where they are through bad choices. We have been throwing tax dollars at poverty for over half a century and have more poor people than ever. So it seems to me that government isn't the answer. I don't have the answer, but I believe that personal responsibility should play a significant part.


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## CarolfromTX (Nov 30, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> True, luck factors in, but where does the expectation come from that it is my responsibility or the governments when someone is unlucky. Each person needs to plan their life.
> - Don't get married until you can afford it.
> - Don't have children if you can't afford it.
> - Don't buy a new house you can afford only if you are lucky.
> ...


Amen to that! Well said, Knit Crazy.


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## Brilingra (Jul 7, 2012)

The ONLY FAIR WAY is a FLAT TAX. That way, EVERYONE gets to pay a share, whether rich or poor.


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## delite163 (Mar 13, 2012)

Lina said:


> How is it fair that one citizen pays millions in taxes and another pays nothing in taxes?


Man you must be rich to be in such a bubble.

The rich hide ninety percent of their money off shore.

You might read the bible about poor people and then quit complaining, then thank your lucky stars that you live in the United States.

I don't know about anybody else but I worked almost 30 years and some of that was as a single woman. I paid 25% income tax, property tax, sales tax. I paid taxes. I don't know of any wealthy person that paid 25% taxes. Their average is about half of that. Keep on living in the bubble


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## Shelly51 (Dec 29, 2012)

That is exactly what is needed. Make them earn their benefits! If the loss of benefits was there they would all go to work and pay their fair share


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

ElyseKnox said:


> Sounds as if you are trying to "damn" all rich people because of one rich person doing something illegal. Illegal behavior arises out of the heart and is found in all levels of society. The person intent on it uses the means at hand whether it be money, a gun, a knife, a pressure cook, a bat, a wire (garrot). Having money does not make one evil nor does it mean that it was acquired by evil means.


Joe Kennedy was a rogue. I think his sons were better people. I believe in capitalism as the best hope for people to succeed, but there are always people willing to do whatever it takes to succeed even break the law. I think there were tyrants and thugs in the communist movement as well as rogues. Capitalism and Communism are just differing economic models, except communism never worked.


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## Wistarla (May 1, 2013)

Have any of you read up on the "Fair Tax"? 

Everyone pays tax, even the child buying a candy bar or the bum buying a beer. If I remember correctly, it was a high sales tax but it did away with the taxes taken out of your paycheck, the IRS (as we know it), and was pretty simple. The government sends you a check every month to offset the taxes you pay on food. The government gets their taxes, and we wind up with more in our pockets because everyone is paying into the system.

It sounded like a great idea to me but I doubt we would ever get enough people or our politicians to even read it, much less agree on it. In fact, it's been several years...I should go back and re-read it again too.


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## CarolfromTX (Nov 30, 2011)

Just how many rich people do you know, and how did you get a look at their tax returns, hmmmm?


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## kinross (Jun 27, 2011)

That was my thought also.
Have a good day.


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## Ronie (Jan 21, 2011)

This is a heated discussion and what I have to say will be lost in the pages but the facts are.. the rich are rich because they know the loop holes to jump through... they know where to invest and how to avoid paying taxes.. 
This year we took money that my husband had put into a 401K and they charged us a penalty to take it out then they taxed it to the max and then we still got thousands less back on our taxes because of it... there is something very wrong there... here are the facts.. with penalty's and taxes on $10,000.00 we paid over $4,000.00 whats up with that??? I'm still a bit pissed... we worked hard for that money and to have almost half of it go to the goverment is insane... not to mention that most of what we put in over the years disapeared in '08 and we had to wait to build it back up... none of that was matched by his employer it all came out of his check!!!! that was years of overtime and missed family gatherings for the goverment to sit back and cry about being broke.. they just don't know how to manage their money..


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## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> Carol
> Poor decisions: You paid attention in school...what about a child who, through no fault of his/her own is born into a family that lives in an area where there are nightly disturbances that rob a child of sleep and needed rest (remember the child not the adult in the family) they go to school not rested, possibly not well fed (brain needs good food for energy) and generally not well prepared to pay attention. This child is a possible result of:
> Having a child out of marriage: Rape, incest, and yes, possibly seeking solace in sex, any resulting in pregnancy...they continue the pregnancy (do not believe in abortion or no abortion services available) and make the "unwise decision" to keep baby and maybe they have no education ie did not finish high school because they A. dropped out and got a minimum wage job (poor decision?)or B. just could not bear to give child up (poor decision?) So this child progresses through school with these issues, but does not quite make the grade and s/he doe not break the cycle s/he was born into ..poor decisions continue. What obligations do we as a society have to assist the child and mother? You tell me your opinion, because I do not want to assume your answer.
> 
> ...


Perfectly said!!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I work 40 hrs a week, I will tell you what I make a hour....$9.25. I started out working at this job $8.50 an hour. My job is not easy. It took me 3 years to get up to what I am making right now. No raises until this last fall. I have not missed 1 day of work. I come in 15 min early when I am scheduled to come in. I am always the one that picks up where needed and have worked many double and triple shifts. I have worked a double shift and gone home and gotten a couple hours sleep and come back and do it all over again for another 8 hours. Come the first of the month I have to pay rent. Once that is paid I am broke for 2 weeks. Yes I get some assistance. I could not survive if I didnt. I have no medical insuranace, can't afford it. Food?? Well there are times when bills come before food and I eat rice and crackers. I make homemade soup and eat off that for a couple weeks. I do not live beyond my means. Yes I have a cell phone. I use it for work also. So that is not wasted money. I don't drive to work I walk to work since I work in the same complex I live in. That saves me some money. I don't eat out nor do I order out. Can't afford it. I have to work. I would love to retire but at 63 years old and am tired and would love to be able to retire in a couple years don't see that happening. Why? Because witht he state the economy is in I can't afford it. I finished high school, took some college courses. But cannot afford to continue college. Oh and lets not forget food stamps. I am not ashamed to say I get them. Wanna know how much I get a month? A whopping $16 a month. I am grateful for that. I just let it build up for a couple months and then use it. So don't get all worked up with those of us who are scrapping because we didn't go to school and pay attention. We don't spend our money wisely. It is people like you that I am afraid irritate me because you judge instead of seeing the true facts of why there is some hardships going on with people.I am glad you are finically set. Good for you. My daughter is a pharm tec and has 4 children. Her husband walked out onher thinking the grass was greener on the other side. He barely pays any child support. Her 4th child, she got pregnant by another man she was in a relationship with and her tubes were tied and she got pregnant. Thought she was safe. No she did not want to abort the baby and we thought that she would have to until we found out that he was okay. She makes good money working for a hospital. And will pick up extra hours when they are available. She also pays rent on a house and food and utilities. Never goes out even when all the kids are at their fathers week. Why she can't spare the money to go out and enjoy herself. You my dear is very critical of people and their circumstances and need to look further than what things appear. Now I am done and will get off my soap box here and pretend that I did not read this post.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> help them until they get back on their feet, not help them to the point that they live on welfare the rest of their lives. They already have enough to start over,education free, food free, more free than most of us will see in our life times.


And what do you call that help and how is it manifested? How distributed?


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## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> Carol
> Poor decisions: You paid attention in school...what about a child who, through no fault of his/her own is born into a family that lives in an area where there are nightly disturbances that rob a child of sleep and needed rest (remember the child not the adult in the family) they go to school not rested, possibly not well fed (brain needs good food for energy) and generally not well prepared to pay attention. This child is a possible result of:
> Having a child out of marriage: Rape, incest, and yes, possibly seeking solace in sex, any resulting in pregnancy...they continue the pregnancy (do not believe in abortion or no abortion services available) and make the "unwise decision" to keep baby and maybe they have no education ie did not finish high school because they A. dropped out and got a minimum wage job (poor decision?)or B. just could not bear to give child up (poor decision?) So this child progresses through school with these issues, but does not quite make the grade and s/he doe not break the cycle s/he was born into ..poor decisions continue. What obligations do we as a society have to assist the child and mother? You tell me your opinion, because I do not want to assume your answer.
> 
> ...


Perfectly said!!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I work 40 hrs a week, I will tell you what I make a hour....$9.25. I started out working at this job $8.50 an hour. My job is not easy. It took me 3 years to get up to what I am making right now. No raises until this last fall. I have not missed 1 day of work. I come in 15 min early when I am scheduled to come in. I am always the one that picks up where needed and have worked many double and triple shifts. I have worked a double shift and gone home and gotten a couple hours sleep and come back and do it all over again for another 8 hours. Come the first of the month I have to pay rent. Once that is paid I am broke for 2 weeks. Yes I get some assistance. I could not survive if I didnt. I have no medical insuranace, can't afford it. Food?? Well there are times when bills come before food and I eat rice and crackers. I make homemade soup and eat off that for a couple weeks. I do not live beyond my means. Yes I have a cell phone. I use it for work also. So that is not wasted money. I don't drive to work I walk to work since I work in the same complex I live in. That saves me some money. I don't eat out nor do I order out. Can't afford it. I have to work. I would love to retire but at 63 years old and am tired and would love to be able to retire in a couple years don't see that happening. Why? Because witht he state the economy is in I can't afford it. I finished high school, took some college courses. But cannot afford to continue college. Oh and lets not forget food stamps. I am not ashamed to say I get them. Wanna know how much I get a month? A whopping $16 a month. I am grateful for that. I just let it build up for a couple months and then use it. So don't get all worked up with those of us who are scrapping because we didn't go to school and pay attention. We don't spend our money wisely. It is people like you that I am afraid irritate me because you judge instead of seeing the true facts of why there is some hardships going on with people.I am glad you are finically set. Good for you. My daughter is a pharm tec and has 4 children. Her husband walked out on her thinking the grass was greener on the other side. He barely pays any child support. Her 4th child, she got pregnant by another man she was in a relationship with and her tubes were tied and she got pregnant. Thought she was safe. No she did not want to abort the baby and we thought that she would have to until we found out that he was okay. She makes good money working for a hospital. And will pick up extra hours when they are available. She also pays rent on a house and food and utilities. Never goes out even when all the kids are at their fathers week. Why she can't spare the money to go out and enjoy herself and she is scrapping. You my dear is very critical of people and their circumstances and need to look further than what things appear. Now I am done and will get off my soap box here and pretend that I did not read this post.


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## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

medusa said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: , You certainly hit the nail on the head, dear reader! For many, a devastating illness can be the beginning of a family's downslide into poverty.


Oh of course. :thumbup: :thumbup: I ahve seen that happen many times.


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## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

medusa said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: , You certainly hit the nail on the head, dear reader! For many, a devastating illness can be the beginning of a family's downslide into poverty.


Oh of course. :thumbup: :thumbup: I have seen that happen many times.


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## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

Shelly51 said:


> I'm just tired of watching a family member get thousands in food stamps, and Medicaid, sit around refusing to work but boy she has a cell phone, cable tv, Internet and she smokes, and she has a car all on the backs of hard working people!


Oh and I agree with you. It is these people that make the rest of those that really need it and willing to work to deserve it look bad!!!


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## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> I don't think she meant the poor the really poor who need help she like the rest of us aare sick of paying for the so called poor who want the goverment to pay for their life style with out working for any of it. They have live off it and feel they are intitled to continue recieving it. People in this country who work feel that it is time they get off their duff's and work.
> 
> We had a governor in this state that put into place the welfare to work law. It called for able body people who should and could work to work or welfare payments were cut off. I wish you could have seen how many all of a sudden could work. They then had their welfare payments cut, to match what they had earned working. They still recieved welfare but at a lower rate. Some even went out and got full time jobs. Funny how it works , if you have can work, then when threaten with lost of free money, you get to work.


In Michigan when I had my own licnessed day care in my home I worked with alot of welfare families. In order for them to get their day care paid for or a portion paid for they had to have a job. So they would have to go to a place and sit and look for jobs at least 8 hrs a day and then they had to set up appointments for interviews and prove they went on the interview for ajobs. It was a great progrqam. And you would be surprised the amount of people who would drop off their kids and go back home and not do anything about going to Work First. They got busted and consequeny they pulled their kids out of day care because they owed me money for those times the state would not pay. I did lose money with them. But the ones that were really serious stuck to it and got jobs.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Ronie said:


> This is a heated discussion and what I have to say will be lost in the pages but the facts are.. the rich are rich because they know the loop holes to jump through... they know where to invest and how to avoid paying taxes..
> This year we took money that my husband had put into a 401K and they charged us a penalty to take it out then they taxed it to the max and then we still got thousands less back on our taxes because of it... there is something very wrong there... here are the facts.. with penalty's and taxes on $10,000.00 we paid over $4,000.00 whats up with that??? I'm still a bit pissed... we worked hard for that money and to have almost half of it go to the goverment is insane... not to mention that most of what we put in over the years disapeared in '08 and we had to wait to build it back up... none of that was matched by his employer it all came out of his check!!!! that was years of overtime and missed family gatherings for the goverment to sit back and cry about being broke.. they just don't know how to manage their money..


Ronie, Some of the things that happened in your life are the result of poor government; however some is also the result of major big business decisions of corporations. Corporations influence government, both democrat run and republican run government. You are not alone in what happened and I think you and your family should be hopping angry. Get out and demonstrate with the Occupy Movement they understand your situation.


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## joycevv (Oct 13, 2011)

CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


So, the child born into severe poverty got there by a long series of bad decisions? Where's the logic in that, pray tell?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

sam0767 said:


> In Michigan when I had my own licnessed day care in my home I worked with alot of welfare families. In order for them to get their day care paid for or a portion paid for they had to have a job. So they would have to go to a place and sit and look for jobs at least 8 hrs a day and then they had to set up appointments for interviews and prove they went on the interview for ajobs. It was a great progrqam. And you would be surprised the amount of people who would drop off their kids and go back home and not do anything about going to Work First. They got busted and consequeny they pulled their kids out of day care because they owed me money for those times the state would not pay. I did lose money with them. But the ones that were really serious stuck to it and got jobs.


And how many of those jobs paid for rent, food, clothes, transportation, utilities, and your childcare services? How did you know people went home and did not look for work? Is it a high or low number of them?


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

leighanne1968 said:


> Who pays no taxes? I pay taxes on my social security and I've already paid on that money once!!


That money was set aside before taxes were applied. You pay them now (and so do I) because they weren't taxed then.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


You are one of the few who have accomplished all of the things you have written. There are sooooo many babies who really don't know who their "dad" really is in this country. I applaud you lady!

It is time for morals to come back into the family--instead of everyone doing whatever they want but expect the taxpayer to pay.

End of soap box for now thanks for reading!


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## Patty Sutter (Apr 17, 2012)

CarolfromTX said:


> What about the people who pay no taxes at all? I'd love to go to a flat tax -- a percentage of income, so that everyone has some skin in the game, so to speak. Just how much of my income do you think the government is entitled to?


They would still find 'loop holes'.


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## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

:thumbup: :thumbup:


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## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

Redhatchris said:


> The rich get richer because the poor get poorer.


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## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

Redhatchris said:


> The rich get richer because the poor get poorer.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Janeway said:


> You are one of the few who have accomplished all of the things you have written. There are sooooo many babies who really don't know who their "dad" really is in this country. I applaud you lady!
> 
> It is time for morals to come back into the family--instead of everyone doing whatever they want but expect the taxpayer to pay.
> 
> End of soap box for now thanks for reading!


And we should punish the babies because the mother may have had them outside of marriage?


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

In Wisconsin, a single person on Medicaid pays $325/mo. Food stamps are used for human food only, no pet food, aspirin, liquor or I-Pods. There is a store in my city who was working some kind of deal, letting people purchase liquor and scanning it as food items. They were caught (the store owners), closed down and jailed. Energy assistance is paid directly to the utilities companies.


Knit crazy said:


> People in need get housing assistance, food stamps, and Medicaid. She's talking about welfare recipients using their benefits to buy I-Pads and liquor. Anytime you get something for free you don't appreciate it and often use it unwisely because you don't earn it. I have seen this phenomenon with well-off teenagers. Give them everything they need, and they never learn the value of money. Ask them to pay for some of their needs, and they suddenly realize how many hours it takes to buy a car, or insurance to drive it.


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## joycevv (Oct 13, 2011)

Everyone should see the following video. How can there be equality in a country where so few own almost everything?


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## feathers (Apr 13, 2013)

Do your research. The Fair Tax plan solves these issues.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

joycevv said:


> So, the child born into severe poverty got there by a long series of bad decisions? Where's the logic in that, pray tell?


Most of those children are born out of wedlock by irresponsible parents who do not try to prevent pregnancy in the first place. It is the children who suffer.

A friend I know was taking care of 3 children because the mother was no where to be found (she left them with a woman she barely knew) and the 1st woman had to return to her night job so my friend kept them for one month.

The mother called woman #1 and wanted her kids at 3 AM so she told her they with woman #2. Well, mother got angry called police so #1 called#2 to call Welfare which she did, but they did not return call until after 9 AM, where police already was at #1's work.

Welfare took children (crying) and gave back to mother, but when police finally checked on mother, she was wanted in Alabama for abusing these same three children. Police picked-up mother put her in jail, put children back into my friends home.

The children were twin boys 18 months old who could not walk nor talk, but would eat whatever was offered and did not fuss at all. Of course they were not potty trained!

The other baby was a 3 month old who did not laugh nor respond to human interaction.

My friend bought formula, but when police arrested mother, she had WIC formula in the car, food stamps, and a letter of where she could get free rent.

Now, I know this is not everyone on Welfare, but most do not know who the children belong to nor is the dad made to be tested to see who is the responsible father as they just walk away and get the next woman pregnant then repeat the process.

Wake up America as where is it right to keep having neglected children that the tax payer is made to be responsible?


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## barbara.kacer (Mar 21, 2011)

I have always looked forward to checking out the latest on KP. I've learned a lot about knitting and I've seen an abundance of beautiful projects.

The topics addressed in "Only in America", while important ones to discuss, in some instances seem to have degraded into a bit of ugliness and name-calling. I object to the name-calling regarding liberals. The actual meaning of "liberal" should be researched. I also object to comments about teaching--"those who can't...".

I am permanently checking off KP.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> And we should punish the babies because the mother may have had them outside of marriage?


 I'm talking about the mothers and fathers of these babies. The babies are the product of these two people who are often neglected. The father walks away only to make another woman pregnant then repeats the process. Make the men responsible instead of the tax payer.

You are paying for what should be their responsibility. Most of the time, the mother is forced to work put the child into day care and assume the full responsibility of the child while the father does nothing.

The child must be taken care of properly.

Where is your logic in this tragedy?


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

barbara.kacer said:


> I have always looked forward to checking out the latest on KP. I've learned a lot about knitting and I've seen an abundance of beautiful projects.
> 
> The topics addressed in "Only in America", while important ones to discuss, in some instances seem to have degraded into a bit of ugliness and name-calling. I object to the name-calling regarding liberals. The actual meaning of "liberal" should be researched. I also object to comments about teaching--"those who can't...".
> 
> I am permanently checking off KP.


Sad isn't it. Guess someone wanted to start an issue.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

barbara.kacer said:


> I have always looked forward to checking out the latest on KP. I've learned a lot about knitting and I've seen an abundance of beautiful projects.
> 
> The topics addressed in "Only in America", while important ones to discuss, in some instances seem to have degraded into a bit of ugliness and name-calling. I object to the name-calling regarding liberals. The actual meaning of "liberal" should be researched. I also object to comments about teaching--"those who can't...".
> 
> I am permanently checking off KP.


Don't go as not all of KP is this bad as I have learned so much, downloaded patterns and got help when stuck on a pattern.

Please stay but go to other threads on KP. Hugs, Jane


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

barbara.kacer said:


> I have always looked forward to checking out the latest on KP. I've learned a lot about knitting and I've seen an abundance of beautiful projects.
> 
> The topics addressed in "Only in America", while important ones to discuss, in some instances seem to have degraded into a bit of ugliness and name-calling. I object to the name-calling regarding liberals. The actual meaning of "liberal" should be researched. I also object to comments about teaching--"those who can't...".
> 
> I am permanently checking off KP.


I am not sure if you took my post on those who can't teach as a negative. It was not aimed as a negative, just a response seeking clarification of Carol who used the saying to respond to my post about two economists. I assure you I esteem teachers and their work.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Janeway said:


> Most of those children are born out of wedlock by irresponsible parents who do not try to prevent pregnancy in the first place. It is the children who suffer.
> 
> A friend I know was taking care of 3 children because the mother was no where to be found (she left them with a woman she barely knew) and the 1st woman had to return to her night job so my friend kept them for one month.
> 
> ...


I guess there is no law against being a bad parent unless physical abuse occurs. I have witnessed some real train wrecks in the lives of children. But where are the grandparents? Where is the father? I agree that laws need to change, and morals need to be reestablished. We are losing a generation of children while the courts, state, and federal government think throwing money at the problem will make a difference.


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## CarolfromTX (Nov 30, 2011)

joycevv said:


> So, the child born into severe poverty got there by a long series of bad decisions? Where's the logic in that, pray tell?


Of course not. I was referring to adults, as I think you know. My point is that we would all be better off if we made good decisions. Bad decisions lead to bad results.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Janeway said:


> I'm talking about the mothers and fathers of these babies. The babies are the product of these two people who are often neglected. The father walks away only to make another woman pregnant then repeats the process. Make the men responsible instead of the tax payer.
> 
> You are paying for what should be their responsibility. Most of the time, the mother is forced to work put the child into day care and assume the full responsibility of the child while the father does nothing.
> 
> ...


Janeway, I can only figure you do not read my entire post(s) or you do not understand satire. I do not think babies are to blame, but your post intimated such. therefore my question, "Do we blame the babies"


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> I guess there is no law against being a bad parent unless physical abuse occurs. I have witnessed some real train wrecks in the lives of children. But where are the grandparents? Where is the father? I agree that laws need to change, and morals need to be reestablished. We are losing a generation of children while the courts, state, and federal government think throwing money at the problem will make a difference.


What assistance constitutes throwing money? Some parents abandon children and grandparents may not be alive, in the state, able to assist any number of possibilities.


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## kittyknit (Sep 25, 2011)

I agree! And the middle class is sucked dry due to the same reason!!!! My generation says "if you don't work for it, you don't get it". I'm all for helping the needy, but TOO many are just usinig the freebie system and being lazy...there's my 2 cents worth....


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

No please don't leave. If you see something distasteful, resist reading it and enjoy and learn or contribute to the knitting posts. I have been hurt by some of these postings in the political genre, but I've thickened my skin. On vulnerable days, I skip these topics. Everyone is important on this forum. Don't let bad apples ruin your pie.


barbara.kacer said:


> I have always looked forward to checking out the latest on KP. I've learned a lot about knitting and I've seen an abundance of beautiful projects.
> 
> The topics addressed in "Only in America", while important ones to discuss, in some instances seem to have degraded into a bit of ugliness and name-calling. I object to the name-calling regarding liberals. The actual meaning of "liberal" should be researched. I also object to comments about teaching--"those who can't...".
> 
> I am permanently checking off KP.


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## Pleclerrc (Apr 17, 2011)

Lina said:


> Only in America could the rich people - who pay 86% of all income taxes - be accused of not paying their "fair share" by people who don't pay any income taxes at all.


Looks like we all agree but are talking to the wrong people. Voice this opinion next time we go to the polls!! It's the only way change will be made in our "democracy." Vote 'em out of office.....see how fast the newcomers listen to the voters..


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## barbara.kacer (Mar 21, 2011)

Thank you, Jane. I just can't do it for now. I'm not feeling the love/concern that I thought was on KP. We wonder why the folks in Washington are at each other's throats and are always fighting--look at the civility of some of today's discussion.


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## kittyknit (Sep 25, 2011)

Lina said:


> Only in America could the rich people - who pay 86% of all income taxes - be accused of not paying their "fair share" by people who don't pay any income taxes at all.


Lina, my hubby and I aren't rich...he's a high school teacher and I'm retired...'nuff said! The middle class seems to carry this nation and they are tired of those using the "gimme" system....and us paying for the free ride...help those who really need it and scrutinize this system more carefully.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Janeway said:


> Most of those children are born out of wedlock by irresponsible parents who do not try to prevent pregnancy in the first place. It is the children who suffer.
> 
> A friend I know was taking care of 3 children because the mother was no where to be found (she left them with a woman she barely knew) and the 1st woman had to return to her night job so my friend kept them for one month.
> 
> ...


So what is someone who is proven to be an unfit mother to do if she is pregnant? Tell us her options? Have baby and give it up? You would force someone to give baby to adoption agency? Take baby away at birth and it goes into foster child program (government run)? Force woman to have tubes tied..government intrusion into private life. Force woman to use birth control..more government intrusion. Let me know Janeway, I am eager for your opinion.


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## KnitPicker (Jan 19, 2011)

CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


Hear! Hear! I know billionaires who scarfed the laws by doing lots of illegal things. Yet, I personally know billionaires and those above that limit, who earned every single penny by starting in the troughs of the cattle business, or mucking out a horse stall, or tossing potato sacks onto the back of a truck.

Many of the poor spend their last dollar on Lottery Tickets. But, there are many who are poor because of the lack of money to get a better education, who lost everything in a hurricane, flood, and/or fire, etc. I know many who are poor because they never did have enough money to invest who, after paying for their medical bills, the kids' school needs, food and utilities and rent, had to sell one of their prized possessions (heirlooms) just to make it the next few days to payday because they weren't paid a decent wage. I could go on, but we must remember, while the USA is the land of opportunity, not everyone gets that opportunity. Billionaires have been known to squander money, too! And most of all, remember, what is good for you, may not be good for others.

God's hand is over everything and while we have the right to choose our earthly destinies, sometimes the Heavenly Plan is to teach us a lesson for good. That might include being destitute so we'll have more compassion, or that we are led to riches so that we can learn to handle it and be charitable. We don't know why that homeless man or woman became that way. Many formerly rich people and PhD's are on the street without shelter because they lost their job due to 9-1-1 and other disasters. (BTW - I'm not rich, either!)

Judge not, lest ye be judged.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

KnitPicker said:


> Hear! Hear! I know billionaires who scarfed the laws by doing lots of illegal things. Yet, I personally know billionaires and those above that limit, who earned every single penny by starting in the troughs of the cattle business, or mucking out a horse stall, or tossing potato sacks onto the back of a truck.
> 
> Many of the poor spend their last dollar on Lottery Tickets. But, there are many who are poor because of the lack of money to get a better education, who lost everything in a hurricane, flood, and/or fire, etc. I know many who are poor because they never did have enough money to invest who, after paying for their medical bills, the kids' school needs, food and utilities and rent, had to sell one of their prized possessions (heirlooms) just to make it the next few days to payday because they weren't paid a decent wage. I could go on, but we must remember, while the USA is the land of opportunity, not everyone gets that opportunity. Billionaires have been known to squander money, too! And most of all, remember, what is good for you, may not be good for others.
> 
> ...


Real examples of real life. There but for the grace of God.


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## barbara.kacer (Mar 21, 2011)

Knovice, 

I know what you mean about thickening one's skin. :-D It goes along with that old phrase about not cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. 

I need a vacation from those bad apples. Some of the unkind comments/remarks have made me question what's in their hearts (not that it's my place to JUDGE). 

See all of you later in the summer.


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## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> The disabled child is the responsibility of the parents. Charities so help parents. The elderly on fixed incomes and no savings get public assistance Medicare and Social Security. Some have military pensions they aren't utilizing or knowledgeable about. If they waited to save for retirement until old age counting on you and me to help, they made a poor decision. I worked hard and saved. I am on a fixed income. But, I never expected to ask someone else to help me.


And I pray you never do!


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## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

knittynatl. said:


> I certainly do get taxed on my SSI


Me too! :-(


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## Kenai (Jan 10, 2013)

How about everyone paying the same % of income on taxes, even those on welfare etc. Everyone should be a part of this country and should support it equally no matter what there income. "Everyone needs to own a piece of the rock" as a wise person once told me. And how about finding something to work at for those on assistance?


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## gma11331 (Oct 18, 2011)

To me a flat tax is the way to go--then nobody can complain about who's paying their fair share or not. My GD only paid about $800 in federal taxes this year but got a refund of around $6000 due to Earned Income Credit, etc. So she paid no taxes at all and got a bonus to boot. I don't begrudge her the money as she needs it, but I paid a lot in taxes and I'm accused of being greedy??? DH and I worked hard all our life to create what we have and have shared a lot with kids and GKs.


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## Kathie (Mar 29, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> In Wisconsin, a single person on Medicaid pays $325/mo. Food stamps are used for human food only, no pet food, aspirin, liquor or I-Pods. There is a store in my city who was working some kind of deal, letting people purchase liquor and scanning it as food items. They were caught (the store owners), closed down and jailed. Energy assistance is paid directly to the utilities companies.


People are always so quick to judge without knowing the circumstances. When I hear "welfare mothers" I want to scream. Where is the father? It is usually the mother who is taking full responsibility for the children while trying to work. She is often in a low paying job with no benefits and working long hours, yet many complain about her needing Medicaid Health Insurance and food stamps. Often the business she is working for is making obscene profits and not providing benefits or a reasonable salary. Then she will be criticized for not being there for her children. Of course it isn't good to have children under these circumstances but the children are there, and many of these women are working their butts off and still need help. Do some abuse the benefits? Of course. If you want to have a perfect system don't work with humans. I won't ever happen. I'm just thankful I have been on the giving end not on the receiving one.


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## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

sam0767 said:


> Perfectly said!!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I work 40 hrs a week, I will tell you what I make a hour....$9.25. I started out working at this job $8.50 an hour. My job is not easy. It took me 3 years to get up to what I am making right now. No raises until this last fall. I have not missed 1 day of work. I come in 15 min early when I am scheduled to come in. I am always the one that picks up where needed and have worked many double and triple shifts. I have worked a double shift and gone home and gotten a couple hours sleep and come back and do it all over again for another 8 hours. Come the first of the month I have to pay rent. Once that is paid I am broke for 2 weeks. Yes I get some assistance. I could not survive if I didnt. I have no medical insuranace, can't afford it. Food?? Well there are times when bills come before food and I eat rice and crackers. I make homemade soup and eat off that for a couple weeks. I do not live beyond my means. Yes I have a cell phone. I use it for work also. So that is not wasted money. I don't drive to work I walk to work since I work in the same complex I live in. That saves me some money. I don't eat out nor do I order out. Can't afford it. I have to work. I would love to retire but at 63 years old and am tired and would love to be able to retire in a couple years don't see that happening. Why? Because witht he state the economy is in I can't afford it. I finished high school, took some college courses. But cannot afford to continue college. Oh and lets not forget food stamps. I am not ashamed to say I get them. Wanna know how much I get a month? A whopping $16 a month. I am grateful for that. I just let it build up for a couple months and then use it. So don't get all worked up with those of us who are scrapping because we didn't go to school and pay attention. We don't spend our money wisely. It is people like you that I am afraid irritate me because you judge instead of seeing the true facts of why there is some hardships going on with people.I am glad you are finically set. Good for you. My daughter is a pharm tec and has 4 children. Her husband walked out onher thinking the grass was greener on the other side. He barely pays any child support. Her 4th child, she got pregnant by another man she was in a relationship with and her tubes were tied and she got pregnant. Thought she was safe. No she did not want to abort the baby and we thought that she would have to until we found out that he was okay. She makes good money working for a hospital. And will pick up extra hours when they are available. She also pays rent on a house and food and utilities. Never goes out even when all the kids are at their fathers week. Why she can't spare the money to go out and enjoy herself. You my dear is very critical of people and their circumstances and need to look further than what things appear. Now I am done and will get off my soap box here and pretend that I did not read this post.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: Well said


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## delite163 (Mar 13, 2012)

sam0767 said:


> Perfectly said!!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I work 40 hrs a week, I will tell you what I make a hour....$9.25. I started out working at this job $8.50 an hour. My job is not easy. It took me 3 years to get up to what I am making right now. No raises until this last fall. I have not missed 1 day of work. I come in 15 min early when I am scheduled to come in. I am always the one that picks up where needed and have worked many double and triple shifts. I have worked a double shift and gone home and gotten a couple hours sleep and come back and do it all over again for another 8 hours. Come the first of the month I have to pay rent. Once that is paid I am broke for 2 weeks. Yes I get some assistance. I could not survive if I didnt. I have no medical insuranace, can't afford it. Food?? Well there are times when bills come before food and I eat rice and crackers. I make homemade soup and eat off that for a couple weeks. I do not live beyond my means. Yes I have a cell phone. I use it for work also. So that is not wasted money. I don't drive to work I walk to work since I work in the same complex I live in. That saves me some money. I don't eat out nor do I order out. Can't afford it. I have to work. I would love to retire but at 63 years old and am tired and would love to be able to retire in a couple years don't see that happening. Why? Because witht he state the economy is in I can't afford it. I finished high school, took some college courses. But cannot afford to continue college. Oh and lets not forget food stamps. I am not ashamed to say I get them. Wanna know how much I get a month? A whopping $16 a month. I am grateful for that. I just let it build up for a couple months and then use it. So don't get all worked up with those of us who are scrapping because we didn't go to school and pay attention. We don't spend our money wisely. It is people like you that I am afraid irritate me because you judge instead of seeing the true facts of why there is some hardships going on with people.I am glad you are finically set. Good for you. My daughter is a pharm tec and has 4 children. Her husband walked out on her thinking the grass was greener on the other side. He barely pays any child support. Her 4th child, she got pregnant by another man she was in a relationship with and her tubes were tied and she got pregnant. Thought she was safe. No she did not want to abort the baby and we thought that she would have to until we found out that he was okay. She makes good money working for a hospital. And will pick up extra hours when they are available. She also pays rent on a house and food and utilities. Never goes out even when all the kids are at their fathers week. Why she can't spare the money to go out and enjoy herself and she is scrapping. You my dear is very critical of people and their circumstances and need to look further than what things appear. Now I am done and will get off my soap box here and pretend that I did not read this post.


Well Said peacegoddess,
and on top of that,

how about the people that have served us in two wars and the ones in the past that served that waited and waited for their benifits.

My son is a Veteran and has really suffered, He worked served his company, 3 tours of duty to Iraq, a lie of a war. He paid taxes,

How about the teacher that taught your kids, they don't pay taxes?

How about the nurses? They don't pay taxes? They are the ones that care for our seniors.

I am so sorry to hear the ones with the most, complaining about their plight. I am sorry that they have such a hard feelings to others,

I feel like our President, Everyone deserves a shot. I also believe in Karma.


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## Kathie (Mar 29, 2011)

Kenai said:


> How about everyone paying the same % of income on taxes, even those on welfare etc. Everyone should be a part of this country and should support it equally no matter what there income. "Everyone needs to own a piece of the rock" as a wise person once told me. And how about finding something to work at for those on assistance?


A person making a low wage, say $7.50 per hour makes about $15,600 per year if they are working full-time. Remember, they are already paying about 7% of this to social security and an additional amount for medicare. Leaves a very small take home pay for anyone much less for a person trying to support a family. If you add even a small flat tax to that you would only have to supplement them with additional food stamps, help with their electrical and heating costs and other benefits. The word out there is if we require business to pay a fare wage there will be less jobs. You might have to exempt small business from wage hikes but WalMart and others like it won't go under from paying a fare wage.


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## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

barbara.kacer said:


> I have always looked forward to checking out the latest on KP. I've learned a lot about knitting and I've seen an abundance of beautiful projects.
> 
> The topics addressed in "Only in America", while important ones to discuss, in some instances seem to have degraded into a bit of ugliness and name-calling. I object to the name-calling regarding liberals. The actual meaning of "liberal" should be researched. I also object to comments about teaching--"those who can't...".
> 
> I am permanently checking off KP.


Please stay in KP we learn so much about knitting and crochet here. Just ignore those who start name calling and just became nasty.


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## barbara.kacer (Mar 21, 2011)

knitismything,

I hear you! Like I said earlier (but to whom?), I need to take a break from these mean-spirited people. 

I'll be back later this summer.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I see you can't count either.



theyarnlady said:


> you lady have the common sense that most on here seem to agree with.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Intelligent discussion is not based on feelings. You are simply being called on your inconsistencies.



theyarnlady said:


> No Dame Mary you can't understand, as all you know what to do Lily is rant and call others names, when they tell their feeling's . You contirbute nothing, other than ranting and name calling.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you, Sam. That is a discussion.



sam0767 said:


> I don't mean to make a arguement start here with your statement, but the poor or people that do not have as much and are having to have assistance or scrape is not due always to poor planning. It could have been loss of job and having to take a job in lessser pay. We all know about that. Or a medical problem that they have that they cannot work and have medical bills that have taken them down. We all are aware that SSI and Medicade don't pay much and retirement is not a whole lot either. So I am just saying that there are reason why the poor are poor right now and not just because they didn't pay attention in school or their upbringing. It is something that happened and we read about it all the time from members here on KP. Fixed incomes, illness, etc.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

If Europeans are not welcome to their opinions on the USA, they probably don't want our comments on theirs. Opinions, please.



theyarnlady said:


> I agree it is happen in all the European countries too. Where is the fairness when some work hard for what they have, and become the people who have to pay for those who can and refuse to work for it. It is not just the rich who are now paying for it, it is everyone who work hard for what they have. But the liberals in this country seem to think we should pay to the point that we become the poor too. I wonder what they really will say when their money is going out instead of coming in.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Yeah, the old 'everything is Obama's fault.' Ignored.



Knit crazy said:


> I understand how you feel. Inflation is occurring in some places in the economy. That vet probably is self-employed. That means he/she is now factoring in the cost of Obamacare for employees and self. Gas is going up because Obama hates the industry and is over-regulating it and coal. Food is going up because of energy costs too. I'm lucky that I have space for a garden. It helps cut our food costs.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The old 'I know someone who....' defense. Ignored.



Shelly51 said:


> I'm just tired of watching a family member get thousands in food stamps, and Medicaid, sit around refusing to work but boy she has a cell phone, cable tv, Internet and she smokes, and she has a car all on the backs of hard working people!


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## Kenai (Jan 10, 2013)

Well I know controversy is not always pleasant, but one learns so much hearing the other side of the story. Just wish our Congress could debate like the British House of Commons. One learns so much from listening to both sides of an argument. Blessings on those who need the help we can give. Love you all and especially all the wonderful knitting ideas you are kind enough to share!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That's why I invoked the 'I know someone who....' defense. It's generally an Urban Legend used to 'prove' their prejudices. Good catch.



peacegoddess said:


> Please find out the name of this person and report them for fraud! I am betting you may not really know this individual.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Prejudice and Urban Legends will be called each time you try it.



theyarnlady said:


> yes we do, you and most of your group feel if someone doesn't get in line and agree with all you say, should be a target for nasty comments, and cause more mayhem then put forth any thing of worth.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sometimes I wonder if the people criticizing the 'takers' have ever personally benefited from government largesse....at any time in their lives....in any form......and have conveniently 'forgotten it.' Anyone know what I mean?


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## ThorPepper (Jan 24, 2012)

CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


Yes!

A woman has an idea, creates a product, starts a business, sacrifices sleep, money, health with the hope and a small chance that what she produces will be valued by a stranger. She's still losing money, but she sticks with it because she's still creating. After a couple of years, living on the edge, she breaks even!! Hooray! In another year, she makes a small profit. Pretty soon, she actually needs help making enough of these items to sell, so she hires two people to help her. She still works 18 hours a day, while the other two work eight because she now has more paperwork and taxes to pay for her and the two others. But, her creation is selling well and there is even more demand. It's WORTH it!! Things are going so well, she hires more people.

As she reflects upon the last ten years, she realizes she has paid all her creditors, there are 28 other people she has been able to hire (who's income is relied upon by their families) but she has had to hire an accounting firm to comply with all the paperwork. She has made a nice profit, buying a house and an actual new car. And she works only ten hours a day. She starts crying. Her creativity, her idea is a success. She is so grateful. She adds another "company get together" to the schedule and celebrates with the employees and their families.

Well, as business cycles usually do, this one turned, down. Also, there is inflation. First a little, then it's roaring. The cost of the raw materials that go into the product increases rapidly. Everyone is suffering the effects. Like so many others, she does not want to increase the cost of her product and she can't make her employees pay for what's going on, so, she decides not to take her salary. She must keep this company going no matter what. There are too many that rely on her, that she's responsible for. The company survives. Whew! It starts making enough so that she can pay off one of the house mortgages.

Because of some very bad fiscal choices by all the entities that run the country she lives in, the whole economy takes a total dump!!! People are losing homes, jobs, and worse, families are falling apart. The sales of her product drops dramatically because its not a necessity. People have to cut back to buying just the basics of life.

She has to lay off some of her own employees. "I can't, I can't", she screams to herself. But she must, otherwise the business will close and all the employees will lose their jobs. She tries to take out that 3rd mortgage again, to save her company again, but can't. Money is tight and she still owes on the 2nd mortgage. Not a good candidate. Nope. She doesn't have 'friends' in high places in the government. Her company has never been big enough for that.

After a few years and more lay-offs, very low sales, at the age of 56, she is finally defeated. The company's taxes finally did it. Now, because her company was never been able to "play the game", you know, not have to pay any taxes on a one billion dollar profit and then giggle about "shovel ready jobs" not really being shovel ready, her dream is destroyed and SHE'S unemployed.

These are the people that are being attacked and vilified. They employ over 70% of those that wish to work while, all the the big, multi billionaires pay big money to campaigns and get put on government boards and chuckle.

Do your research. Don't just parrot what you've heard others say.


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## Parrishththgt (Aug 20, 2012)

CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


And aren't you fortunate that you have been healthy and lucky in life.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Always a slap at 'those people.' Looking down your nose at others causes wrinkles.



theyarnlady said:


> help them until they get back on their feet, not help them to the point that they live on welfare the rest of their lives. They already have enough to start over,education free, food free, more free than most of us will see in our life times.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Now at least we know the real reason for the sluggish recovery. (Sarcasm. At least it's different from 'everything is Obama's fault.)



Katsch said:


> Yes, us people, who by the way are reluctant to hire new people and provide needed jobs these days.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ah, Obama's fault returns.



Knit crazy said:


> True, luck factors in, but where does the expectation come from that it is my responsibility or the governments when someone is unlucky. Each person needs to plan their life.
> - Don't get married until you can afford it.
> - Don't have children if you can't afford it.
> - Don't buy a new house you can afford only if you are lucky.
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I hope you regularly feel grateful for your health and the fact that there is still a job for you to do. Not everyone is so fortunate. I hope you pray for them too.



gigi 722 said:


> AMEN..you are so right..I still work and will be 76 in July. I am tired of giving to those who "can't" because of whatever the excuse of the moment happens to be.


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## barbara.kacer (Mar 21, 2011)

Like in the interstate system, schools, medical research? See below for more information. I read that the government has funded duck penis research--don't know if that's true--don't know why it would be important.

http://funding-programs.idilogic.aidpage.com/


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

delite163 said:


> Well Said peacegoddess,
> and on top of that,
> 
> how about the people that have served us in two wars and the ones in the past that served that waited and waited for their benifits.
> ...


The vetrans administration is a massive disgrace. We have young wo/men coming home physically and emotionally wrecked and cannot get the assistance they need. One young man from Kentucky (I will look it up to make sure) was interviewed on Democracy Now and he was considering suicide due to the pain and lack of care. I will post the day of the interview.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Yeah. 'I got mine and you just pull yourself by your bootstraps.'



CarolfromTX said:


> You're right, of course, that some people just can't make it on their own. I was speaking in generalities, and I still believe that the vast majority of poor people are where they are through bad choices. We have been throwing tax dollars at poverty for over half a century and have more poor people than ever. So it seems to me that government isn't the answer. I don't have the answer, but I believe that personal responsibility should play a significant part.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Or is it 'well knit, Crazy?'



CarolfromTX said:


> Amen to that! Well said, Knit Crazy.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

'Flat earth.' Steve Ford couldn't sell it either. Ignored.



Brilingra said:


> The ONLY FAIR WAY is a FLAT TAX. That way, EVERYONE gets to pay a share, whether rich or poor.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

This rings true. Everyone who espouses the GOP philosophy cannot be rich. Perhaps they are just hopeful (gullible) enough to think that they will get a fair share. Dream on.



delite163 said:


> Man you must be rich to be in such a bubble.
> 
> The rich hide ninety percent of their money off shore.
> 
> ...


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## kittyknit (Sep 25, 2011)

barbara.kacer said:


> Knovice,
> 
> I know what you mean about thickening one's skin. :-D It goes along with that old phrase about not cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.
> 
> ...


If the Chit/Chat portion of the blog is offensive to you, then just don't click on that portion. There is a plethora of knitting subjects here.


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## barbara.kacer (Mar 21, 2011)

I LOVE chit chat.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Do you also admit that rogues, tyrants and thugs exist in the Capitalist World?



Knit crazy said:


> Joe Kennedy was a rogue. I think his sons were better people. I believe in capitalism as the best hope for people to succeed, but there are always people willing to do whatever it takes to succeed even break the law. I think there were tyrants and thugs in the communist movement as well as rogues. Capitalism and Communism are just differing economic models, except communism never worked.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Please cite your research sources. Thank you.



Wistarla said:


> Have any of you read up on the "Fair Tax"?
> 
> Everyone pays tax, even the child buying a candy bar or the bum buying a beer. If I remember correctly, it was a high sales tax but it did away with the taxes taken out of your paycheck, the IRS (as we know it), and was pretty simple. The government sends you a check every month to offset the taxes you pay on food. The government gets their taxes, and we wind up with more in our pockets because everyone is paying into the system.
> 
> It sounded like a great idea to me but I doubt we would ever get enough people or our politicians to even read it, much less agree on it. In fact, it's been several years...I should go back and re-read it again too.


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## Parrishththgt (Aug 20, 2012)

Wow I have never received so many emails at once. This is really lighting up my Live Mail.  How will I ever get back to my projects ?! Guess it's time to "unwatch". :roll:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Most rich and poor people keep their finances to themselves. On the other hand, Congress is required to report their finances is broad general categories. Very interesting. Arte Johnson again.



CarolfromTX said:


> Just how many rich people do you know, and how did you get a look at their tax returns, hmmmm?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

delite163 said:


> Well Said peacegoddess,
> and on top of that,
> 
> how about the people that have served us in two wars and the ones in the past that served that waited and waited for their benifits.
> ...


Here is the name of the vet from the interview I mentioned and the place to find the interview.

Tomas Young Iraq vet interviewed on Democracy Now on March 21,2013. Google Democracy Now, go to recent shows and find March shows scroll down to the date. A sad, but enlightening read. Also can google Tomas Young


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My guess is your husband paid a penalty because he was under age. You did, however, get the benefit of the growth of that money while it grew tax deferred. His employer should have disclosed this information before he took the distribution so you could have decided to wait.



Ronie said:


> This is a heated discussion and what I have to say will be lost in the pages but the facts are.. the rich are rich because they know the loop holes to jump through... they know where to invest and how to avoid paying taxes..
> This year we took money that my husband had put into a 401K and they charged us a penalty to take it out then they taxed it to the max and then we still got thousands less back on our taxes because of it... there is something very wrong there... here are the facts.. with penalty's and taxes on $10,000.00 we paid over $4,000.00 whats up with that??? I'm still a bit pissed... we worked hard for that money and to have almost half of it go to the goverment is insane... not to mention that most of what we put in over the years disapeared in '08 and we had to wait to build it back up... none of that was matched by his employer it all came out of his check!!!! that was years of overtime and missed family gatherings for the goverment to sit back and cry about being broke.. they just don't know how to manage their money..


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for sharing.



sam0767 said:


> Perfectly said!!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I work 40 hrs a week, I will tell you what I make a hour....$9.25. I started out working at this job $8.50 an hour. My job is not easy. It took me 3 years to get up to what I am making right now. No raises until this last fall. I have not missed 1 day of work. I come in 15 min early when I am scheduled to come in. I am always the one that picks up where needed and have worked many double and triple shifts. I have worked a double shift and gone home and gotten a couple hours sleep and come back and do it all over again for another 8 hours. Come the first of the month I have to pay rent. Once that is paid I am broke for 2 weeks. Yes I get some assistance. I could not survive if I didnt. I have no medical insuranace, can't afford it. Food?? Well there are times when bills come before food and I eat rice and crackers. I make homemade soup and eat off that for a couple weeks. I do not live beyond my means. Yes I have a cell phone. I use it for work also. So that is not wasted money. I don't drive to work I walk to work since I work in the same complex I live in. That saves me some money. I don't eat out nor do I order out. Can't afford it. I have to work. I would love to retire but at 63 years old and am tired and would love to be able to retire in a couple years don't see that happening. Why? Because witht he state the economy is in I can't afford it. I finished high school, took some college courses. But cannot afford to continue college. Oh and lets not forget food stamps. I am not ashamed to say I get them. Wanna know how much I get a month? A whopping $16 a month. I am grateful for that. I just let it build up for a couple months and then use it. So don't get all worked up with those of us who are scrapping because we didn't go to school and pay attention. We don't spend our money wisely. It is people like you that I am afraid irritate me because you judge instead of seeing the true facts of why there is some hardships going on with people.I am glad you are finically set. Good for you. My daughter is a pharm tec and has 4 children. Her husband walked out onher thinking the grass was greener on the other side. He barely pays any child support. Her 4th child, she got pregnant by another man she was in a relationship with and her tubes were tied and she got pregnant. Thought she was safe. No she did not want to abort the baby and we thought that she would have to until we found out that he was okay. She makes good money working for a hospital. And will pick up extra hours when they are available. She also pays rent on a house and food and utilities. Never goes out even when all the kids are at their fathers week. Why she can't spare the money to go out and enjoy herself. You my dear is very critical of people and their circumstances and need to look further than what things appear. Now I am done and will get off my soap box here and pretend that I did not read this post.


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## gopher (Mar 28, 2013)

ladydog said:


> Do you mean the same 4% that own everything and each pay less than % of taxes than the worker who makes $58,000/year? Those people?


Be careful - Lina might be in the 4% - otherwise, I can't understand how she could make her statement unless we just don't understand that this was suppose to be a joke!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ignored.



Janeway said:


> You are one of the few who have accomplished all of the things you have written. There are sooooo many babies who really don't know who their "dad" really is in this country. I applaud you lady!
> 
> It is time for morals to come back into the family--instead of everyone doing whatever they want but expect the taxpayer to pay.
> 
> End of soap box for now thanks for reading!


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

ThorPepper said:


> Yes!
> 
> A woman has an idea, creates a product, starts a business, sacrifices sleep, money, health with the hope and a small chance that what she produces will be valued by a stranger. She's still losing money, but she sticks with it because she's still creating. After a couple of years, living on the edge, she breaks even!! Hooray! In another year, she makes a small profit. Pretty soon, she actually needs help making enough of these items to sell, so she hires two people to help her. She still works 18 hours a day, while the other two work eight because she now has more paperwork and taxes to pay for her and the two others. But, her creation is selling well and there is even more demand. It's WORTH it!! Things are going so well, she hires more people.
> 
> ...


Key words here are big multi billionaires which I interpret (correct me if wrong) as huge corporations that tax dodge. No one here is after business people like yourself. Businesses like yours and others are what we need. Also new ways of doing business such as employee started and operated co ops such as the laundry in Cleveland Ohio that serves Case Western University Hospital and co operatives such as the very successful ones in Northern Spain.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Knit Crazy said: Income taxes have come down because many wise leaders realized that heavily taxing the wealthy causes the economic system to stagnate. 

So please explain to me why after all the Bush tax cuts our economy was destroyed. If your statement was true we should have had a booming economy, shouldn't we?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> True, luck factors in, but where does the expectation come from that it is my responsibility or the governments when someone is unlucky. Each person needs to plan their life.
> - Don't get married until you can afford it.
> - Don't have children if you can't afford it.
> - Don't buy a new house you can afford only if you are lucky.
> ...


Do you remember what brought us out of the great depression?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

This will change opinions. Don't miss it. Times have changed drastically. Opinions, please, after you've viewed it. Only two minutes of your time.



joycevv said:


> Everyone should see the following video. How can there be equality in a country where so few own almost everything?


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

CarolfromTX wrote:
So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilifien'd by the liberals.


Carol, if you walk around with your nose that high in the air and it happens to rain, you might drown. I would be careful if I were you. You think you are being vilified by the liberals, but what are you doing to all those less fortunate than you. Some day that attitude may come back to bite you in the butt.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ignored.



Janeway said:


> Most of those children are born out of wedlock by irresponsible parents who do not try to prevent pregnancy in the first place. It is the children who suffer.
> 
> A friend I know was taking care of 3 children because the mother was no where to be found (she left them with a woman she barely knew) and the 1st woman had to return to her night job so my friend kept them for one month.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I hope you will reconsider. There is much to be learned here. There is much to be taught.



barbara.kacer said:


> I have always looked forward to checking out the latest on KP. I've learned a lot about knitting and I've seen an abundance of beautiful projects.
> 
> The topics addressed in "Only in America", while important ones to discuss, in some instances seem to have degraded into a bit of ugliness and name-calling. I object to the name-calling regarding liberals. The actual meaning of "liberal" should be researched. I also object to comments about teaching--"those who can't...".
> 
> I am permanently checking off KP.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ignored.



Janeway said:


> I'm talking about the mothers and fathers of these babies. The babies are the product of these two people who are often neglected. The father walks away only to make another woman pregnant then repeats the process. Make the men responsible instead of the tax payer.
> 
> You are paying for what should be their responsibility. Most of the time, the mother is forced to work put the child into day care and assume the full responsibility of the child while the father does nothing.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Very distressing. I feel that we lost a resource.



GWPlver said:


> Sad isn't it. Guess someone wanted to start an issue.


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## toknitornot (Aug 1, 2012)

You sound like a social worker. If you aren't, you missed your calling! Being recently retired from social work, I feel that you expressed my feelings perfectly.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And it always costs money to raise children.



peacegoddess said:


> What assistance constitutes throwing money? Some parents abandon children and grandparents may not be alive, in the state, able to assist any number of possibilities.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Please look at the link on distribution of wealth. You will be amazed how it has changed.



kittyknit said:


> Lina, my hubby and I aren't rich...he's a high school teacher and I'm retired...'nuff said! The middle class seems to carry this nation and they are tired of those using the "gimme" system....and us paying for the free ride...help those who really need it and scrutinize this system more carefully.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Mariever said:


> I do not resent rich people. They are the ones who keepnthe economy going by using there own money and investments to provide jobs and build infrastructures for the country. If they get a tax break good for them
> They are putting there money and effort in line to keep this country great.
> I have never seen a more generous group of multi billionares as the american rich.
> Mariever


So during the Bush years, when the rich got all those tax cuts, what happened to the jobs they created and the infrastructure they built? Was it over seas, is that why we can't see it. I am confused and would appreciate an answer.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Good thoughts, Kathie.



Kathie said:


> People are always so quick to judge without knowing the circumstances. When I hear "welfare mothers" I want to scream. Where is the father? It is usually the mother who is taking full responsibility for the children while trying to work. She is often in a low paying job with no benefits and working long hours, yet many complain about her needing Medicaid Health Insurance and food stamps. Often the business she is working for is making obscene profits and not providing benefits or a reasonable salary. Then she will be criticized for not being there for her children. Of course it isn't good to have children under these circumstances but the children are there, and many of these women are working their butts off and still need help. Do some abuse the benefits? Of course. If you want to have a perfect system don't work with humans. I won't ever happen. I'm just thankful I have been on the giving end not on the receiving one.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Lina said:


> The information came from IRS, but it was a 2004 graph.
> The top 1% paid 37%.
> Wolff and Neef are both well known. Those who can't teach
> and write about ideas. You read articles, but did you find any knowledge that would be useful in the real world?


So Lina, What is it that you dislike or disapprove of about Richard Wolff and Frederick Max Neef? 
Wolff is a proponent of the Mondragon corporation of worker co operatives that are highly successful. I am curious.


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## cheryl ridgway (Jan 31, 2013)

You mean some of the biggest US companies like GM, B of A, Verizon, AMR, JC Penny's, among many others. There are plenty of reputable, non-political websites that can educate you how so many of the most profitable companies are able to use many loopholes to get out of paying one cent in taxes. And when you say that many low-income people do not pay taxes, are you counting payroll taxes?


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## KNITTEN NANA (Apr 2, 2011)

I disagree middle class America, is the one who pay there taxes and get NO help or any kind of breaks. My husband is a good example, he almost died in June of last year and is in failing health and can not work. He lost his insurance when he needed it most and now we owe hundred of thousands of dollars to hospitals and doctors. We applied for help paying his bills, but he makes $19 too much from his pension check. The rich dont have to worry about money and the poor are helped out with many goverment programs, but the middle class American must fend for their self. Never in a million years would I of thought we would be in such dire straights but we are and there is no one willing to help.


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## barbara.kacer (Mar 21, 2011)

Seems like there might be a little scapegoating going on today...

http://www.scapegoat.demon.co.uk/

http://societyforhumanisticpsychology.blogspot.com/2009/11/science-of-scapegoating-shifting-blame.html


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Kathie said:


> People are always so quick to judge without knowing the circumstances. When I hear "welfare mothers" I want to scream. Where is the father? It is usually the mother who is taking full responsibility for the children while trying to work. She is often in a low paying job with no benefits and working long hours, yet many complain about her needing Medicaid Health Insurance and food stamps. Often the business she is working for is making obscene profits and not providing benefits or a reasonable salary. Then she will be criticized for not being there for her children. Of course it isn't good to have children under these circumstances but the children are there, and many of these women are working their butts off and still need help. Do some abuse the benefits? Of course. If you want to have a perfect system don't work with humans. I won't ever happen. I'm just thankful I have been on the giving end not on the receiving one.


Kathie, Thank you..your sentiments are so true. Every mother IS A WORKING WOMAN. If she is a single mother and stays home and receives welfare she is damned, if she is a single mother and gets a job she is damned by some because she is not home taking care of her children and has them in childcare. Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. And of course it is her bad choices that put her in the situation....so double damned.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

KNITTEN NANA said:


> I disagree middle class America, is the one who pay there taxes and get NO help or any kind of breaks. My husband is a good example, he almost died in June of last year and is in failing health and can not work. He lost his insurance when he needed it most and now we owe hundred of thousands of dollars to hospitals and doctors. We applied for help paying his bills, but he makes $19 too much from his pension check. The rich dont have to worry about money and the poor are helped out with many goverment programs, but the middle class American must fend for their self. Never in a million years would I of thought we would be in such dire straights but we are and there is no one willing to help.


Yours is an example of how some people become poor.


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## stitchntime (Apr 27, 2013)

This discussion reflects the confusion re wealth in America. We see people trying to paint all wealthy as mean/hateful and all poor as downtrodden/honorable. The truth is that some people are bad/hateful/mean and some are good/honest/caring. Taking from one group and giving to another by the gov't is wrong. Whether I choose to donate the dollars that are mine to another person or cause should be my decision. I will be judged by God and remembered by my family & friends for the person that I am. Remember, if you want to have no cares, always have clothes, food and shelter--go to prison. They will take care of you. I choose to live FREE.


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## Linda6885 (Feb 13, 2011)

http://www.american.com/archive/2007/november-december-magazine-contents/guess-who-really-pays-the-taxes
Read this.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

delite163 said:


> Man you must be rich to be in such a bubble.
> 
> The rich hide ninety percent of their money off shore.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

NJG said:


> So during the Bush years, when the rich got all those tax cuts, what happened to the jobs they created and the infrastructure they built? Was it over seas, is that why we can't see it. I am confused and would appreciate an answer.


NJG---good to "see" you again.
As you can see, we're still "at it."
Yes, I've wondered why the job creators aren't out in full force creating jobs. It's because the middle class and the poor have no money to buy their products and services. The jobs are in China.


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## delite163 (Mar 13, 2012)

damemary said:


> Sometimes I wonder if the people criticizing the 'takers' have ever personally benefited from government largesse....at any time in their lives....in any form......and have conveniently 'forgotten it.' Anyone know what I mean?


Very Good damemary,

I wonder if they remember when they hired a taker and recieved Fed money for hiring them at a lower wage? The Feds made up for the difference in low wage. I know plenty of makers that got state and fed money in Michigan to move their shops and business etc. to our communities, and when the going got tough they took off with the jobs to China.


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

delite163 said:


> Man you must be rich to be in such a bubble.
> 
> The rich hide ninety percent of their money off shore.
> 
> ...


 I don't envy the wealthy. I just don't think anyone should have to pay more in taxes than another. 
How do you know the rich hide their money off shore?


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## yorkie1 (Sep 5, 2011)

If the rich paid their fair share it would be great. There are too many loop holes that the rich people have to get out of paying their fair share. 
I don't think it has anything to do with the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. There are a lot of the poorer people that have loop holes as well. 
The only fair tax would be to have just a certain % collected for taxes whenever a person bought anything. The rich or poor have to pay the same %. No loop holes etc. Then if a person doesn't want to pay any tax don't spend any money. It's as simple as that. Then everyone pays their fair share.


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## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

knovice knitter said:


> In Wisconsin, a single person on Medicaid pays $325/mo. Food stamps are used for human food only, no pet food, aspirin, liquor or I-Pods. There is a store in my city who was working some kind of deal, letting people purchase liquor and scanning it as food items. They were caught (the store owners), closed down and jailed. Energy assistance is paid directly to the utilities companies.


That is how it is done here in Mi also with the food stamps. Only food items are used for food stamps. Anything else ais against the law.


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## calisuzi (Apr 1, 2013)

I'm with you ladydog!!!


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Linda6885 said:


> http://www.american.com/archive/2007/november-december-magazine-contents/guess-who-really-pays-the-taxes
> Read this.


Stephen Moore author of the above article. He supports Social security privatization, repeal of estate tax, supply side economics, and free market policies. 
My answer to him is are you freaking crazy? But article below says it better.

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2007/12/is-stephen-moor.html


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## luv (Feb 19, 2012)

CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## nitnana (Feb 3, 2013)

Lina, you opened a can of worms! And CarolfromTX - you ask, "--how much ----is the government entitled to?" What an odd way of thinking about taxes. The government is US!!! We pay taxes to live in a free America - and be protected - be educated - have justice - I could go on & on - I never think of them being "entitled" to anything. If we want to live in a free society (and help those who cannot help themselves) them we are obligated to pay!


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

yorkie1 said:


> If the rich paid their fair share it would be great. There are too many loop holes that the rich people have to get out of paying their fair share.
> I don't think it has anything to do with the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. There are a lot of the poorer people that have loop holes as well.
> The only fair tax would be to have just a certain % collected for taxes whenever a person bought anything. The rich or poor have to pay the same %. No loop holes etc. Then if a person doesn't want to pay any tax don't spend any money. It's as simple as that. Then everyone pays their fair share.


What is a "fair share"? Why does one person owe more than another?


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Kenai said:


> How about everyone paying the same % of income on taxes, even those on welfare etc. Everyone should be a part of this country and should support it equally no matter what there income. "Everyone needs to own a piece of the rock" as a wise person once told me. And how about finding something to work at for those on assistance?


Have you ever had to live on welfare? Do you have any idea how much a person on welfare gets? Try taking taxes out of that amount and then living on the rest. With the passage of welfare reform under the Clinton administration people do have to go to work. They can no longer be on welfare for life. Typically 5 years is the limit, but it can vary from state to state. I was on welfare for a few months after my husbands death and believe me, I was not rolling in the dough. When the economy crashed in 08 things changed for a lot of people.


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## cheryl ridgway (Jan 31, 2013)

I'm so sorry you are in this situation. You are a perfect example of how people who played by all the rules can end up destitute through no fault of their own. And a good reminder that we all must be careful not to judge those in financial trouble. Not all poor people are irresponsible and not all rich people got rich through hard work and responsible behavior.


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## lcbenny (Mar 28, 2013)

Hmmmm, you sound a little defensive and "a lot" judgmental. There are some in the top 1% economic bracket who do the right thing, contribute to the needy, pay their fair share and help make this a better world. They count their blessings that they had the opportunities and good fortune to be successful. ( Bill Gates is a good example) There are many, however, who know all the tax loopholes( that's what they pay their accountants, lawyers and business managers for) who shelter their funds out of country so they don't have to pay their fair share, who judge the poor and needy, and are concerned only about their own bottom line. 
Me, I'm just a middle class liberal who chose to get my MS degree in a helping profession-I worked all my life with men and women who didn't choose to have schizophrenia, or a TBI or even choose to be laid off from their job so the company could improve their profit margin. I was a county MH social worker for many years until I sustained a severe head injury and had to retire early. The majority of those individuals were smart, many were educated, many had worked or were trying to work( hard to get hired when you are not "perfect"). They just had the misfortune of becoming ill. My daughter has Lupus, a severe back injury as well as other medical issues. She didn't choose to be poor. Most people aren't poor or on disability or welfare because they choose to be or are lazy. There are a few who abuse the system, just as there are ( I suspect many more in the upper income bracket) some well to do folks who cheat the system. We need a fair tax code that doesn't burden the hard working folks, while giving the upper income level the advantage of sheltering their assets to avoid paying their fair share. I'm tired of people like you whining about paying what's your fair share and judging the less fortunate-who'd give anything to lead a "normal" life, including being able to work. Stop judging and grow a heart. You are lucky to be in your position-not any better than anyone else, nor more deserving. Every one deserves a fair shake but not every one gets it.


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## delite163 (Mar 13, 2012)

Lina said:


> I don't envy the wealthy. I just don't think anyone should have to pay more in taxes than another.
> How do you know the rich hide their money off shore?


The way I know, is I came from wealthy people.

I started as a young woman on the conservative side.

I also for many years had a very small business and know all the tax breaks that small business get from the Government. I was an Antiques dealer for many years in Kalkaska Michigan. That is my experience. If you really don't want to pay taxes just own a business. The tax breaks are huge, the last time I knew, I was allowed a break for each and every mile that I drove my car for business. All vehicles used for the business are a tax write off and so on. I also retired from the auto industry as well. So I have a little experience about stuff.

I know of others that take huge lavish vacations and do just a little work on their business while they are way and are able to write off the vacation as a trip to do business.

Even our old governor here had some problems using the state plane or helicopter to do government business is a couple of side trips for some fun. That fun cost us tax payers here.

So Anyone living in the US is very lucky to have the blessings we enjoy.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> Always a slap at 'those people.' Looking down your nose at others causes wrinkles.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Lina said:


> I don't envy the wealthy. I just don't think anyone should have to pay more in taxes than another.
> How do you know the rich hide their money off shore?


the article below might help.
corporate profits are at a 60 year high, yet many major corporations say they cannot pay taxes.

http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/corporate_tax_dodgers


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## delite163 (Mar 13, 2012)

NJG said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


yup and when pointing the finger at someone you have three pointing back at ch

and the corporate tax dodge is exactly right. and if I was using my vehicle for business right now I would be getting 55 and 1/2 cents a mile for each and every mile I drive for business as well as interest, plates and so much more....the list is biggggg! Think of the business that has hundreds of vehicles used to do business all the time....That a lot of tax money


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## Dsynr (Jun 3, 2011)

And us working stiffs are getting the lovely "privilege" of paying the bill! I wouldn't mind if my taxes went to make the country better. All the politicians do is make war and steal money. [Give me a hand getting down from my soapbox, please.]


medusa said:


> Truer words were never spoken!:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Katsch (Mar 15, 2011)

damemary said:


> Now at least we know the real reason for the sluggish recovery. (Sarcasm. At least it's different from 'everything is Obama's fault.)


It was never meant as sarcasm. Reluctance to hire new employees is a fact for our small business in today's current market and for many others as well. Take it the way you would like because you will anyway but sarcasm it was not. More of a by product of our sluggish economy and I wonder who you would blame for that?


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

Take a look at the people who *want everyone and I DO mean everyone* to pay more taxes. They are either the ones who pay nothing or are the good buddies of the Congress, or both. These people have rarely ever worked a thankless day in their lives where making $10 more per week would throw you into another tax bracket and the net result was it would cost you $12 a week *MORE* in taxes. That is regressive tax at it's best, folks. That's the stupid tax system we have. And Nobama wants to increase it????? I didn't drink that Kool-Aid, either.


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## delite163 (Mar 13, 2012)

Dsynr said:


> And us working stiffs are getting the lovely "privilege" of paying the bill! I wouldn't mind if my taxes went to make the country better. All the politicians do is make war and steal money. [Give me a hand getting down from my soapbox, please.]


You bet cha, War and the biggest takers are congress. 6 figure incomes plus all the bennies to do nothing. Can't get nothing done. You betcha we get to pay, pay, pay how's that for a hand ;0)


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## momskii (Oct 25, 2012)

delite163 said:


> You bet cha, War and the biggest takers are congress. 6 figure incomes plus all the bennies to do nothing. Can't get nothing done. You betcha we get to pay, pay, pay how's that for a hand ;0)


When I read blogs like this, I thank God that my servitude is almost over. I have worked all my life and I will get to pay taxes till I die, and my kids will have to pay after I die (for me)
I just lost my husband at the end of 2011. I had to pay estate taxes (even though he had no "estate", just half of the house. Then I had to pay a death tax, an attorney fee, money to record that he died, etc. I paid more money after he was dead then when he was alive. I often remember what I was told awhile ago, "if no money is coming in, there is nothing there to go out." I know we all can't just leave our jobs, but wouldn't it be something if we could just for a week


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## yorkie1 (Sep 5, 2011)

Lina: If there was a set % (say 25%) for everyone then no one payes any more than another. When you bought something you would pay the 25% whether you are a rich person or a poor one. No other taxes are paid. 
Now that is the only fair tax. Everyone pays the same 25%.
If the rich person paid 25% the poor person had to pay the same 25% whenever either spent any money.


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## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

momskii said:


> When I read blogs like this, I thank God that my servitude is almost over. I have worked all my life and I will get to pay taxes till I die, and my kids will have to pay after I die (for me)
> I just lost my husband at the end of 2011. I had to pay estate taxes (even though he had no "estate", just half of the house. Then I had to pay a death tax, an attorney fee, money to record that he died, etc. I paid more money after he was dead then when he was alive. I often remember what I was told awhile ago, "if no money is coming in, there is nothing there to go out." I know we all can't just leave our jobs, but wouldn't it be something if we could just for a week


I am so sorry you had to go through that. Unfortunitly the government will get ya coming (being born) and going (dieing). Sad but so true. You are the prime example of htat with what you just went through.


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## toknitornot (Aug 1, 2012)

@Barbara Kacer, I see it as spinning, and both sides of the debate do it. Most people are firmly grounded in their beliefs of democrat vs republican, poor vs rich, who pays the most tax in relation to their income, etc. The ongoing debate in this country has become nonproductive with only alienation as the result, and I doubt this is the place to discuss it. Would you agree? At least we can meet on common ground and enjoy each other sharing our obsession with our crafts, knitting in particular. My father offered this sage advice; Never discuss politics or religion with family or friends. I think he was onto something....


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## cheryl ridgway (Jan 31, 2013)

Dear toknitornot,
thanks for bringing some balance to this discussion. I try not to get involved in political discussions but got sucked into this one. But you are so right, most people feel very strongly about issues -- both democrats and republicans -- and I would almost bet that nothing anyone says to them (or me!) is going to change their opinions. That's why this country is split right down the middle and it is almost impossible to fix any of our problems.

I guess it would be better to stick to knitting and crocheting discussion, but then again, we can choose not to read these political threads.


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

delite163 said:


> The way I know, is I came from wealthy people.
> 
> I started as a young woman on the conservative side.
> 
> ...


My husband has a small business. Sorry, but we don't get those tax breaks. We get to pay taxes disguised as fees.


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## barbara.kacer (Mar 21, 2011)

Toknitornot and Cheryl:

Agreed. KP is the place to discuss knitting, crocheting, other crafts/passions, and non-political/non-religious issues.

Barb


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

yorkie1 said:


> Lina: If there was a set % (say 25%) for everyone then no one payes any more than another. When you bought something you would pay the 25% whether you are a rich person or a poor one. No other taxes are paid.
> Now that is the only fair tax. Everyone pays the same 25%.
> If the rich person paid 25% the poor person had to pay the same 25% whenever either spent any money.


Are you talking sales tax or income tax? 25% of a million is more than 25% of a hundred thousand. If I pay a thousand dollars, then I think everyone should pay a thousand. That is fair.


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## Lucy1037 (Apr 16, 2011)

Lina said:


> Only in America could the rich people - who pay 86% of all income taxes - be accused of not paying their "fair share" by people who don't pay any income taxes at all.


I do not know where you got this information but unless you have the facts to back it up I would suggest you keep quite. Also, I do not think this is the place for tax complaints. Take it to your congress or senate representative.


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

toknitornot said:


> @Barbara Kacer, I see it as spinning, and both sides of the debate do it. Most people are firmly grounded in their beliefs of democrat vs republican, poor vs rich, who pays the most tax in relation to their income, etc. The ongoing debate in this country has become nonproductive with only alienation as the result, and I doubt this is the place to discuss it. Would you agree? At least we can meet on common ground and enjoy each other sharing our obsession with our crafts, knitting in particular. My father offered this sage advice; Never discuss politics or religion with family or friends. I think he was onto something....


This area is labeled Chit Chat non knitting topics. I would think it is a good place for discussions. Some people do not like opposing views. That does not mean that we have to be confrontational.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Some of you ladies are so funny. You complain and complain about political discussions, but continue to join in, which is fine. Join in, but just stop saying how bad these discussions are.


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

Lucy1037 said:


> I do not know where you got this information but unless you have the facts to back it up I would suggest you keep quite. Also, I do not think this is the place for tax complaints. Take it to your congress or senate representative.


The facts came from the irs. The information was dated. It was from 2004. Time passes quickly. It didn't feel that 2004 was 9 years ago. My vehicle is an 02 and I think it is still brand new. 
The new tax graph is a worse case with 1 % paying something like 35+% of total tax burden and 51 % paying nothing. 
This is exactly the place for tax discussions.


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## yorkie1 (Sep 5, 2011)

Income tax.. No sales tax. no other tax. Just a flat rate of (say 25%) income tax. Everyone would pay the same of 25% whenever they spent any money. If you don't want to pay any tax don't spend any money. That way a rich person spends the same amount as the poor person.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> You don't even have a state tax in TX so what are you crying about. Texas, totally forgettable. You don't have good schools either and it shows.


This is the evidence of the type of discussions you and your "club" have on your LOLL thread? Are we ever lucky not to be invited to join you. Once again you have proven my point that you are so sickeningly sweet to each other on LOLL that you have to invade other political threads and spew your poor behavior and put down anyone with a differing opinion. HOW NICE.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Once again, your post does not even make sense. Warren Buffet doesn't have any problems but you sure do. Donald Trump is an idiot who has filed bankruptcy many times so obviously he didn't spend his money properly did he so now he has the knowledge to determine how his tax dollars should be spent. Donald and that dead animal on his head should go crawl back into the hole he and his little buddy slithered out of.


HOW NICE. Yet another display of your discussion abilities. Best keep these abilities under lock and key in your own thread.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

damemary said:


> Then there are the ones who escape taxes all together while earning millions. Can you spell tax loophole?


GE and Facebook come to mind. Apple certainly has holdings off shore. That goes hand in hand with their outsourcing.


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## toknitornot (Aug 1, 2012)

Dear Cheryl and Barb,
Thank you for your support and understanding. Barb, I was not singling you out, it was just an opportune place to slow the train down. A feeling of sadness while reading the posts and sensing the tempers rising was overwhelming me, because I LOVE this site, and all you crazy knitters/tatters/crocheters. Yes, it occurred to me I could just stop reading, but knowing we are all just really frustrated with the situation and not meaning to offend our good friends here forced me to speak. If you're not careful, just mentioning what you're having for dinner will start a topic such as this, and before you know it, people are offended. Let's not go there.


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## carmenl (Jan 30, 2011)

I wonder who's minding the store.......What a free for all!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> This is the evidence of the type of discussions you and your "club" have on your LOLL thread? Are we ever lucky not to be invited to join you. Once again you have proven my point that you are so sickeningly sweet to each other on LOLL that you have to invade other political threads and spew your poor behavior and put down anyone with a differing opinion. HOW NICE.


These threads are open to everyone to post in. There is no invitation list and never was for LOLL. I guess it really gets under your skin to see people getting along with each other. Unlike Denim and Pearls, we don't gossip and tear people apart.
But I am really flattered that you read our thread,. Sorry there is no contempt in there. Sweet we are. 
You have no leg to stand on here again, Solowey. Your group is posting in here too "spewing" nasty comments. BLESS YOUR HEART!


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Well, raise the rates and they'll pay their taxes. The super rich aren't the ones who are complaining, are they? Or are you one of them? Close some of the loopholes.


Close all the loopholes, why just some. They complain, you're just not listening. I'm not one of them.


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## carmenl (Jan 30, 2011)

What is LOLL?


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## Katsch (Mar 15, 2011)

Lina said:


> My husband has a small business. Sorry, but we don't get those tax breaks. We get to pay taxes disguised as fees.


exactly!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> I beg to differ. We (taxpayers) have not always taken care of the poor and elderly. In the past, religious organizations did the needed charity work. Nobody has a right to be taken care of. That is a recent phenomenon that is bringing this country to its knees. My ancestors saved money to come to America or indentured themselves to get here. The did all means of work just to survive. No one gave them housing, transportation, or wealth. Some died poor, but left great families. Some grew wealthy by good decisions, moderate lifestyles, and saving what they earned. Some had good luck; some bad. But, nobody begged for a handout even though they could have used it. They lived long lives and family took care of them when they ran out of savings. They married because you couldn't survive without two individuals raising a family. They lived within their means.
> 
> Example: My great-grandmother was widowed with 3 step-sons and 6 sons to raise. Her boys each committed themselves to supporting her until they were 21. Then, she gladly went to live in a Baptist home as her husband had been a minister and the church took care of her. No Social Security, pension, welfare, Medicare, or other help. It was not the life she would have chosen, but she survived until she was 98 with good health.


I did not say that the government have always taken care of us. I said that this country has always taken care of it's poor, be it through charity, churches, etc.
You speak as though Social Security and Medicare are public handouts. I worked for over 40 years and paid into the SSI fund every paycheck. It is called Social Security Insurance for a reason. I have also paid into Medicare and Medicaid. 
Anybody who has worked and paid into these programs deserve to collect from it.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

damemary said:


> Oi weh! Ayn Rand is alive and yapping.


This is the type of serious discussions you want? NOW NICE.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

damemary said:


> You know what happens when you get excited. Do you really want to go there? I'll just try to ignore your ignorance.


More serious discussion.


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## pzoe (Mar 17, 2011)

Who doesn't pay income tax, the elderly or people who have nothing to begin with?

Pzoe


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## meadowmadcow (Feb 18, 2012)

I would suggest you all take a breath and have a nice cup of tea but if my memory serves me right it was the tax on tea that caused problems once before!!


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> So what was it that p p'd you off. Was it that you were enjoying calling people dumb-sses when you thought no one would notice or care. Was it the rear end of the donkey emblem I embedded in the post I still just love love love it. You'll get over it, just move along in the same little path with the rest of your group of Laughable Little Liberals.
> 
> galinipper
> 
> Go play over on Denim and Pearls where they can bless you and cast that demon out of you. Why would a man your age want to come out here and spend your time with women? Don't you get enough attention at home or are you a single fellow? Straight or gay or like Marcus Bachmann, uncommitted?


Galinipper, the more you piss them off, the nastier they get. You must be on to something or hit a nerve. You go girl.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Can the poor do without those thing? Everyone who benefits should co tribute.


This has nothing to do with social class. It's these things that our taxes go to as well as a billion other things. Why did you jump on the poor right away there?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Lina said:


> This area is labeled Chit Chat non knitting topics. I would think it is a good place for discussions. Some people do not like opposing views. That does not mean that we have to be confrontational.


Lina 
Where is the chat with my question to you about Wolff and worker owned co operatives?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Galinipper, the more you piss them off, the nastier they get. You must be on to something or hit a nerve. You go girl.


Ah yes, slowey, keep breeding contempt. It really aids the dscussions.


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## jbachman (Jan 19, 2011)

I work in a tax prep office during tax season. I have learned a lot not only about taxes, but about people. 

When reading (especially on line) on the different options regarding USA taxes it is important to make sure to the reader differetiates between facts and opinions. 

Stevee Forbes proposed the flat tax years ago. Everyone could do their federal income tax on a post card. The wealthy did not want it and the low income did not understand it. Wealthy would pay more tax as there would not be any deductions. Low income would lose EIC and other credits, but would also pay lower taxes out of their weekly pay. 

The economy has been heading for problems since removal of the gold standard. Yes we earned less, but what we did earn had value. Devaluation of the dollar due to elimination of the gold standard was made even wose by deregulation of many agencies, including banking and securities. 

I am not affilliated with any political party, I am a widow, mid 50's, live without cable, satalite, internet. My cell phone is a trac phone for long distance and emergency use only. I do have a full time job with benefits. I received my first raise this month in 13 years. 

I work part time during tax season in an area with little or no industry due to NAFTA. I see wealthier clients doing creative bookkeeping to keep their deductions high and tax base low. I see low income clients being taken advantage of with coupons for discount tax services that are inflated to begin with. I see people paying several hundred percent interest on advance loans on income tax return checks and fees witheld options. 

A person is allowed to deduct $1 million in real estate interest. If you are making enough to allow you to purchase property(s) where the interest alone is $1 million a year, do you really need the deduction? There are many other obsurdities like this in the tax law. 

Currently the new helath care law and it's enforcement by the ISR is approximately 900 pages. There has to be a problem if it takes that many words to ensure that someone who cannot afford health care gets it. 

Each year I take classes to update and learn more to enable me to counsel clients. Each time congress has updated tax laws, they get worse - worse to understand, worse to interpret, worse to enforce. If you read what the founding fathers of this country wrote, they stressed keeping government simple. 

I don't have a solution other than each time one of our senators or representatives at local, state and country level need to make a decision they are considering not only the effect of the outcome locally, but the drop in a pond effect. The ripples from all the drops are destroying all of us.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


I think there's something here in addition to logic; perhaps a little bit of superiority? That's the way it sounds to me.


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## pzoe (Mar 17, 2011)

CarolfromTX said:


> What about the people who pay no taxes at all? I'd love to go to a flat tax -- a percentage of income, so that everyone has some skin in the game, so to speak. Just how much of my income do you think the government is entitled to?


Exactly who are all these people who pay no taxes?

Pzoe


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> BrattyPatty, you started the fight. You are nasty when logic fails you. You like your L.O.L.L. site on this forum because you all agree with each other. Real debate causes you to degenerate into a snarling wolf attacking rather than providing cogent arguments.


I would go back and read again, crazy. Try pages 6&7. You are very wrong. I don't run from discussions if I don't have an answer. Where did you get that idea? If I don't reply to "where is your resources, it's because they are printed at the top of my posts.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> This is the type of serious discussions you want? NOW NICE.


NO NICE?? :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> HOW NICE. Yet another display of your discussion abilities. Best keep these abilities under lock and key in your own thread.


I could say the same to you, but I am smart enough to know that anyone can post in these threads. Maybe you could take your own advice?


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## kim82352 (Jun 9, 2011)

Yes, Lina, you could look at it that way, that YOUR money is YOURS. But our government is a democracy. The government is US. We have a responsibility to give money to elected officials in government to perform functions that help the American people. Of course not all of it is used wisely. And a fair percentage to pay for taxes is up for debate. BUT... where do you think the government gets money for schools, roads, bridges, food inspectors, homeland security, clean air, clean water etc.


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## kim82352 (Jun 9, 2011)

Well said, Cheryl


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

kim82352 said:


> Yes, Lina, you could look at it that way, that YOUR money is YOURS. But our government is a democracy. The government is US. We have a responsibility to give money to elected officials in government to perform functions that help the American people. Of course not all of it is used wisely. And a fair percentage to pay for taxes is up for debate. BUT... where do you think the government gets money for schools, roads, bridges, food inspectors, homeland security, clean air, clean water etc.


I agree, Kim.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

medusa said:


> For those who believe that corporations pay their fair share please read below. It is the page from VT Senator Bernie Sanders 4/25/13 issue of his email newsletter:
> 
> "Here is a list of 15 large profitable corporations that have used
> offshore tax havens to avoid paying U.S. income taxes:


Taking advantage of loopholes and investing offshore is not illegal. Changes to the tax code is necessary.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

toknitornot said:


> Your perspective is directly proportional to which end of the money train you are on. Every point made is valid, but not everyone on the low end made bad decisions, and not everyone on the high end worked hard.


You are so correct. Thank you for stating this very basic truth.


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## kim82352 (Jun 9, 2011)

If big greedy corporations like WalMart, who often is the largest employer in many rural areas, would agree to pay their employees a realistic wage, more people could get ahead. Corporations (like the one I work for) post huge profits, make their shareholders happy, but their employees get a 1% wage increase yearly. Sure, I should be happy to get that, but remember that this corporation is doing fine and should share some of that with their employees. 
G-R-E-E-D!!!!!!!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

kim82352 said:


> If big greedy corporations like WalMart, who often is the largest employer in many rural areas, would agree to pay their employees a realistic wage, more people could get ahead. Corporations (like the one I work for) post huge profits, make their shareholders happy, but their employees get a 1% wage increase yearly. Sure, I should be happy to get that, but remember that this corporation is doing fine and should share some of that with their employees.
> G-R-E-E-D!!!!!!!


Kim, have you ever heard the CEO of Costco speak? Quite the opposite of Walmart. He pays above the minimum wage and gives cost of living raises regularly. If his employees are happy and doing well, then so is his business.
Makes sense to me.


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## Rosie M (May 1, 2013)

I'm with you Lina. The book 'Rich Dad, Poor Dad' tells all about the thinking patterns of those who become "rich" and those who aren't.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knit crazy wrote:
Kennedy was a capitalist. He found a product and supplied it, albeit an illegal product. He evaded taxes on the liquor though. That would be growing rich off the backs of the poorer folks who paid their taxes. and those who were toting his liquor


Sounds as if you are trying to "damn" all rich people because of one rich person doing something illegal. Illegal behavior arises out of the heart and is found in all levels of society. The person intent on it uses the means at hand whether it be money, a gun, a knife, a pressure cook, a bat, a wire (garrot). Having money does not make one evil nor does it mean that it was acquired by evil means.

ElyseKnox


Thank you, Elyse. KnitCrazy talks out both sides of her mouth or maybe her tongue is forked. If you have money and you are a Republican you take full advantage of all tax loopholes, hide your money outside the U.S. etc. and she thinks you are just a clever investor. If someone like Joe Kennedy, a Democrat does it he's a crook. Knit is Crazy. I don't like all the means the wealthy have of not paying what I believe are their fair share of taxes and I don't care who is doing it. It's wrong. The right have rules for themselves and then another set of rules for all others. I think she is pretty two-faced.


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## mlsolcz (Feb 16, 2012)

I totally agree with you.


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## mlsolcz (Feb 16, 2012)

So the person who makes $20,000/yr. pays the same percentage as the person who makes 2 million plus? Does that really seem fair to you? Skin in the game is one thing but just surviving is another!


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## lfitzie (Apr 4, 2011)

IF YOU WANT TO BE IN THE BRACKET THAT HAS YOU PAYING A MILLION IN TAXES THEN YOU NEED TO GET OFF THIS BLOG AND GET OUT TO WORK, OR INVENT SOMETHING THAT SOMEONE ELSE NEEDS, OR CURE CANCER OR .....BECOME A POLITICIAN.


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## lfitzie (Apr 4, 2011)

I HAVE NEVER BEEN GIVEN A JOB BY A POOR PERSON, BUT HAVE HAD TONS OF JOBS GIVEN TO ME BY SOMEONE WHO WAS "RICH".


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

lfitzie said:


> IF YOU WANT TO BE IN THE BRACKET THAT HAS YOU PAYING A MILLION IN TAXES THEN YOU NEED TO GET OFF THIS BLOG AND GET OUT TO WORK, OR INVENT SOMETHING THAT SOMEONE ELSE NEEDS, OR CURE CANCER OR .....BECOME A POLITICIAN.


No need to holler.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> No Dame Mary you can't understand, as all you know what to do Lily is rant and call others names, when they tell their feeling's . You contirbute nothing, other than ranting and name calling.


Yarnie, this makes no sense. Better take a break.


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

No four letters tells it all.......WORK....at school and then at everything you do and don't look to Uncle Sam to solve your problems. And if you don't THEN you will get poorer ....and poorer....and poorer.


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## immunurse (May 2, 2011)

medusa said:


> Truer words were never spoken!:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


There are fewer people living in poverty in the US (and elsewhere) than ever before. Many US households receiving entitlements bring in over $30,000 per year, including housing subsidies, food stamps, WIC, unemployment, Aid to Dependent Children and more. And they pay NO income tax.

The poor are getting better off all the time. The rich may be getting richer - some of them, at least, because they take risks, provide good products or services and hire a lot of people. But they are not doing it at the expense of people on welfare.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

sam0767 said:


> I don't mean to make a arguement start here with your statement, but the poor or people that do not have as much and are having to have assistance or scrape is not due always to poor planning. It could have been loss of job and having to take a job in lessser pay. We all know about that. Or a medical problem that they have that they cannot work and have medical bills that have taken them down. We all are aware that SSI and Medicade don't pay much and retirement is not a whole lot either. So I am just saying that there are reason why the poor are poor right now and not just because they didn't pay attention in school or their upbringing. It is something that happened and we read about it all the time from members here on KP. Fixed incomes, illness, etc.


Right on sam! According to the good Christians on the right if you can't take care of yourself or your family it's because you are a lazy bum who can't keep his pants zipped and is making babies everywhere. I have been fortunate and have always had enough but I know people who have fallen on hard times through no fault of their own and have lost everything. Maybe we should just line them all up and shoot them. If you are rich the right believes you have a halo around your head and your whole life you did everything by the book. My philosophy is simple, "there but for the grace of God go I". It would be more saintly if the Christian right got their noses up out of the air and took a look around at all the people that are hurting out there. Charities are wonderful but a lot of people who used to contribute to those charities are now going to the food shelves and needing help themselves. Where are all those jobs that the rich created. Maybe they could bring back the thousands of jobs they sent overseas because their bottom line wasn't high enough and you pride yourselves saying this is a Christian nation? Where is your Christian kindness. You have all turned into Ebenezer Scrooge.


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## sjrNC (Jul 30, 2012)

10% 20000 is 2,000
10% 2 Million is 200,000

yes, it is easy to say, who can't live on the rest of that 2 million.

I would think that they would have some type of schedule and people under a certain income would pay nothing.
But then maybe that is too logical.

I agree, but if that money is earned legally, I can't begrudge them. As someone stated pages ago, many do wonderful things with their money, giving to charities, funding research, hospitals or other programs. 

People talk about corporations but how about entertainers or athletes. To me they are paid outrageous salaries, thus costing people who attend movies or sporting events to pay ridiculous prices for tickets.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

immunurse said:


> There are fewer people living in poverty in the US (and elsewhere) than ever before. Many US households receiving entitlements bring in over $30,000 per year, including housing subsidies, food stamps, WIC, unemployment, Aid to Dependent Children and more. And they pay NO income tax.
> 
> The poor are getting better off all the time. The rich may be getting richer - some of them, at least, because they take risks, provide good products or services and hire a lot of people. But they are not doing it at the expense of people on welfare.


Where did you get your numbers from? How many people are in this family? Your statement makes no sense since you have taken it out of context.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> These threads are open to everyone to post in. There is no invitation list and never was for LOLL. I guess it really gets under your skin to see people getting along with each other. Unlike Denim and Pearls, we don't gossip and tear people apart.
> But I am really flattered that you read our thread,. Sorry there is no contempt in there. Sweet we are.
> You have no leg to stand on here again, Solowey. Your group is posting in here too "spewing" nasty comments. BLESS YOUR HEART!


I have not read your thread, wouldn't waste my time. I was simply repeating what you have said amongst yourselves and to others on the Prada and S&O threads. Thank you for blessing my heart, but you should really say that when looking in the mirror. That way the blessing will go right back at you, as you need it badly.


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## DollieD (Mar 7, 2011)

Lina said:


> Only in America could the rich people - who pay 86% of all income taxes - be accused of not paying their "fair share" by people who don't pay any income taxes at all.


86% ?????


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

Regarding physicians fees they are paid according to a fee schedule. Fee schedules are determined by insurance companies or in the case of Medicare by the government. These fees have not gone up with inflation. And you can always shop around if you think the fee is too much.


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## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)

The more taxes the rich have to pay the more they have to charge for the products they manufacture or services they provide. Our government can't seem to figure this out.


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

Regarding physicians fees they are paid according to a fee schedule. Fee schedules are determined by insurance companies or in the case of Medicare by the government. These fees have not gone up with inflation. And you can always shop around if you think the fee is too much.[/quote]


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

sjrNC said:


> 10% 20000 is 2,000
> 10% 2 Million is 200,000
> 
> yes, it is easy to say, who can't live on the rest of that 2 million.
> ...


These athletes and celebrities also have charities that they support.


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

CarolfromTX said:


> The choices you make determine the life you lead. Things happen to people that are unfortunate or unforeseeable, but it is an individual's choice how to deal with it. Those choices define who we are. And the sad fact is that many people make bad choices, time after time.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

sam0767 said:


> Perfectly said!!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I work 40 hrs a week, I will tell you what I make a hour....$9.25. I started out working at this job $8.50 an hour. My job is not easy. It took me 3 years to get up to what I am making right now. No raises until this last fall. I have not missed 1 day of work. I come in 15 min early when I am scheduled to come in. I am always the one that picks up where needed and have worked many double and triple shifts. I have worked a double shift and gone home and gotten a couple hours sleep and come back and do it all over again for another 8 hours. Come the first of the month I have to pay rent. Once that is paid I am broke for 2 weeks. Yes I get some assistance. I could not survive if I didnt. I have no medical insuranace, can't afford it. Food?? Well there are times when bills come before food and I eat rice and crackers. I make homemade soup and eat off that for a couple weeks. I do not live beyond my means. Yes I have a cell phone. I use it for work also. So that is not wasted money. I don't drive to work I walk to work since I work in the same complex I live in. That saves me some money. I don't eat out nor do I order out. Can't afford it. I have to work. I would love to retire but at 63 years old and am tired and would love to be able to retire in a couple years don't see that happening. Why? Because witht he state the economy is in I can't afford it. I finished high school, took some college courses. But cannot afford to continue college. Oh and lets not forget food stamps. I am not ashamed to say I get them. Wanna know how much I get a month? A whopping $16 a month. I am grateful for that. I just let it build up for a couple months and then use it. So don't get all worked up with those of us who are scrapping because we didn't go to school and pay attention. We don't spend our money wisely. It is people like you that I am afraid irritate me because you judge instead of seeing the true facts of why there is some hardships going on with people.I am glad you are finically set. Good for you. My daughter is a pharm tec and has 4 children. Her husband walked out onher thinking the grass was greener on the other side. He barely pays any child support. Her 4th child, she got pregnant by another man she was in a relationship with and her tubes were tied and she got pregnant. Thought she was safe. No she did not want to abort the baby and we thought that she would have to until we found out that he was okay. She makes good money working for a hospital. And will pick up extra hours when they are available. She also pays rent on a house and food and utilities. Never goes out even when all the kids are at their fathers week. Why she can't spare the money to go out and enjoy herself. You my dear is very critical of people and their circumstances and need to look further than what things appear. Now I am done and will get off my soap box here and pretend that I did not read this post.


Sam, I think you are describing the majority of people who are trying very hard just to make do and I gladly pay taxes to help people who need it. Anyone can be in your shoes. It is so much easier for people to judge and be critical. Thank you for speaking out. I'm sure many others will read your post and understand where you are coming from. You should be proud of yourself. God bless you.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> I have not read your thread, wouldn't waste my time. I was simply repeating what you have said amongst yourselves and to others on the Prada and S&O threads. Thank you for blessing my heart, but you should really say that when looking in the mirror. That way the blessing will go right back at you, as you need it badly.


No you weren't. Why in that case (if you haven't read the thread) would you call us "sickenenly sweet?"
You just can't leave your bitterness out of anything. Too bad for you. HO NICE!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> I have not read your thread, wouldn't waste my time. I was simply repeating what you have said amongst yourselves and to others on the Prada and S&O threads. Thank you for blessing my heart, but you should really say that when looking in the mirror. That way the blessing will go right back at you, as you need it badly.


IGNORE


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Lucy1037 said:


> I do not know where you got this information but unless you have the facts to back it up I would suggest you keep quite. Also, I do not think this is the place for tax complaints. Take it to your congress or senate representative.


Thank you, Lucy :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> IGNORE


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

RUKnitting said:


> No four letters tells it all.......WORK....at school and then at everything you do and don't look to Uncle Sam to solve your problems. And if you don't THEN you will get poorer ....and poorer....and poorer.


What's your point? You sound like a bag of hot air. Who is asking Uncle Sam to support them, you?


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## sjrNC (Jul 30, 2012)

"These athletes and celebrities also have charities that they support."

Are they not considered wealthy! And yes I know they do much good through charities!

We have many in our town, that do great things for many! They step up to the plate when they see a need.
They also fund floors at our Children's hospital, run camps for the underprivileged, give to keep sports programs in our middle schools, those are just a few I can think of off the top of my head.


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## carmenl (Jan 30, 2011)

To Quote E B White 
"Prejudice is a great time saver. You can form opinions without having to get the facts."


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

immunurse said:


> There are fewer people living in poverty in the US (and elsewhere) than ever before. Many US households receiving entitlements bring in over $30,000 per year, including housing subsidies, food stamps, WIC, unemployment, Aid to Dependent Children and more. And they pay NO income tax.
> 
> The poor are getting better off all the time. The rich may be getting richer - some of them, at least, because they take risks, provide good products or services and hire a lot of people. But they are not doing it at the expense of people on welfare.


A person cannot collect both unemployment and AFDC at the same time. Also, food stamp allotments are dependent upon household income and number of people in the family home.

Unemployment is paid into by employers and is taxable income.

Use of the term "many" is vague and misleading.

If the poor are better off than ever before why is the US 34th out of 35 industrial modern countries in child and maternal deaths?

In addition, the garment workers in Bangladesh would probably argue with you about who takes risks in producing goods.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

RUKnitting said:


> No four letters tells it all.......WORK....at school and then at everything you do and don't look to Uncle Sam to solve your problems. And if you don't THEN you will get poorer ....and poorer....and poorer.


Tell this to the people who lost their jobs when corporations went overseas for cheaper labor costs. There are people who have worked at such factories for the majority of their adult working life and now have no job just at the time of their retirement years.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

After presidential candidate Mitt Romney claimed 47% of Americans "pay no income tax" and are "dependent upon government," media noted that because of tax loopholes, not near-poverty income, 1,400 millionaires paid no federal income taxes in 2009 (Robertson Williams, senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center) and that in 2011 the corporate "person" Boeing had no net income-tax liability for the fourth year in a row, despite $5.1 billion in profits (Danny Westneat), according to the Seattle Times, Sept. 19, 2012.


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## Mercygirl76 (Dec 30, 2012)

Lina said:


> Nolan Finleys column in the Detroit News comparing paying for milk and paying for taxes, based on an analysis a reader (corporate lawyer Jon Taub) provided:If every U.S. taxpayer purchased a gallon of milk, each person would pay $2.49, and the total cost would be 140.5 million times $2.49  or $349 million.
> 
> Now lets assume the government treated milk like government services and determined its price the same way it determines tax rates. The pricing would change as follows:
> 
> ...


This analysis doesn't take into account that the top 5% of taxpayers (who control the majority of money earned) pay less in taxes as a percentage of income because MOST DO NOT HAVE TO CLAIM THE MAJORITY OF THEIR INCOME as wages. Most of their earnings are in capital gains, which are taxed at a lower rate than wages. If the government removed this loophole, and the wealthy had to pay taxes on ALL income (be it wages, capital gains, etc.), we would see a dramatic drop in the deficit.

And by the way, the milk analysis doesn't hold milk. The middle class has always carried the tax burden of this country. And I would hazard to guess that in the milk analysis, the rich and the poor are sucking at the teat of the middle class, just like in reality.


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## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Sam, I think you are describing the majority of people who are trying very hard just to make do and I gladly pay taxes to help people who need it. Anyone can be in your shoes. It is so much easier for people to judge and be critical. Thank you for speaking out. I'm sure many others will read your post and understand where you are coming from. You should be proud of yourself. God bless you.


Thank You


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## beanie8 (May 17, 2012)

Just because a person is poor does not mean that they made BAD DECISIONS, you cannot get into college or trade schools with no money, everyone cannot get scolarships. The rich do not necessarily get rich from stealing from the poor either, the poor dont have anything to steal. Holding a steady job and TRYING to save helps a person to become more financially stable. There are just not enough good jobs for non college educated people and not everyone can affore college.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

beanie8 said:


> Just because a person is poor does not mean that they made BAD DECISIONS, you cannot get into college or trade schools with no money, everyone cannot get scolarships. The rich do not necessarily get rich from stealing from the poor either, the poor dont have anything to steal. Holding a steady job and TRYING to save helps a person to become more financially stable. There are just not enough good jobs for non college educated people and not everyone can affore college.


I agree, beanie. There aren't enough jobs for those who do earn a college degree.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> The disabled child is the responsibility of the parents. Charities so help parents. The elderly on fixed incomes and no savings get public assistance Medicare and Social Security. Some have military pensions they aren't utilizing or knowledgeable about. If they waited to save for retirement until old age counting on you and me to help, they made a poor decision. I worked hard and saved. I am on a fixed income. But, I never expected to ask someone else to help me.


Geez, you mean all the taxes I paid into Social Security for 32 years, and the payments out of my Social Security every month for my Medicare are public assistance? I don't think so!


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Yarnie, this makes no sense. Better take a break.


I do it just to annoy you.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Lina said:


> Are you talking about those tax supported muslum terrorist
> who were on the FBI watch list? This stinks as much as the Bengazi affair.


If you read the small print, you will learn that the Boston Bombers and their parents are American citizens.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Right on sam! According to the good Christians on the right if you can't take care of yourself or your family it's because you are a lazy bum who can't keep his pants zipped and is making babies everywhere. I have been fortunate and have always had enough but I know people who have fallen on hard times through no fault of their own and have lost everything. Maybe we should just line them all up and shoot them. If you are rich the right believes you have a halo around your head and your whole life you did everything by the book. My philosophy is simple, "there but for the grace of God go I". It would be more saintly if the Christian right got their noses up out of the air and took a look around at all the people that are hurting out there. Charities are wonderful but a lot of people who used to contribute to those charities are now going to the food shelves and needing help themselves. Where are all those jobs that the rich created. Maybe they could bring back the thousands of jobs they sent overseas because their bottom line wasn't high enough and you pride yourselves saying this is a Christian nation? Where is your Christian kindness. You have all turned into Ebenezer Scrooge.


This from a devote Catholic who even sent her child to a catholic school. Isn't that true, Nancy.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

lfitzie said:


> I HAVE NEVER BEEN GIVEN A JOB BY A POOR PERSON, BUT HAVE HAD TONS OF JOBS GIVEN TO ME BY SOMEONE WHO WAS "RICH".


 :thumbup:


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Dear Ladies on KP since BRATTY PATTY, seems to want everyone to go to the site Denim's Pearls and Prada's to see how nasty we are please do, and see how bad we are. Then please note some of these wonderful left people that one lady defend today, how they really are.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Please Ingore Bratty Patty,


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

kim82352 said:


> Yes, Lina, you could look at it that way, that YOUR money is YOURS. But our government is a democracy. The government is US. We have a responsibility to give money to elected officials in government to perform functions that help the American people. Of course not all of it is used wisely. And a fair percentage to pay for taxes is up for debate. BUT... where do you think the government gets money for schools, roads, bridges, food inspectors, homeland security, clean air, clean water etc.


Johnny can't read, do simple arithmetic, recognize the USA on a world map, and can't tell you who Ulysses Grant was; the roads throughout the country are a mess; bridges, don't make me laugh; food inspectors that look the other way; homeland security that's real good at harassing John Q. Public; and an EPA that has proven itself out of control over and over again. Just *WHAT* is the government spending our tax money on? Well, between January and March of this year the spend like crazy team of Nobama and Biden have had 8, count 'em, 8 vacations. That's at $4M for each for Nobama and $.5M each for Biden. That's $18M for these guys to not work away from DC. Gee, they aren't doing anything constructive in DC, they could just stay there and save the money.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Please Ingore Bratty Patty,


LOL you are making a complete fool of yourself once again.
But who am I to stop you? Keep going Yarnie.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> If you read the small print, you will learn that the Boston Bombers and their parents are American citizens.


Only the younger brother (the 19 year old) and the mother are citizens. And how does he repay the medical school education he was getting...?


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## elfiestouch (Aug 31, 2011)

CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## indices (Oct 7, 2011)

Australia is in the middle of deciding how to raise money for a disability insurance pension, probably by raising the Medicare levy. The parents are responsible for a disabled child, responsible for love and care but must surely have financial help in providing that. To an outsider some of the arguements dont sound very kind or Christian. Surely it is better to have guaranteed financial assistance than rely on charities. All pay a little and some benefit and we should be grateful that we dont have to use that benefit.

Indices

Indices


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> Geez, you mean all the taxes I paid into Social Security for 32 years, and the payments out of my Social Security every month for my Medicare are public assistance? I don't think so!


You never paid enough money to pay your Social Security benefits. That comes from others paying Social Security taxes. The government spent what you paid in Social Security taxes for other things. You also did not pay enough in Medicare taxes while working or from your Social Security to pay for your yearly medical benefits if you are even minimally using the system. That comes from the general tax fund because Medicare is broke. So both SS and Medicare are public assistance. The public is paying for your benefits.


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## elfiestouch (Aug 31, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> The problem with Warren Buffet is that he has NOT paid more in taxes, has he? He's all talk and no action on this topic. I haven't heard his super-rich friends stand up and say they want to pay more either. Although i did hear Donald Trump say he would be willing to pay more in taxes if he thought the government would spend it properly. I do not know if The Donald is a friend of Buffet's.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

indices said:


> Australia is in the middle of deciding how to raise money for a disability insurance pension, probably by raising the Medicare levy. The parents are responsible for a disabled child, responsible for love and care but must surely have financial help in providing that. To an outsider some of the arguements dont sound very kind or Christian. Surely it is better to have guaranteed financial assistance than rely on charities. All pay a little and some benefit and we should be grateful that we dont have to use that benefit.
> 
> Indices
> 
> ...


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> If you read the small print, you will learn that the Boston Bombers and their parents are American citizens.


Wrong. The dead terrorist was not a citizen. Two of the three friends of the wounded terrorist, who were accomplices and removed his computer and backpack from his dorm room are also not citizens. One of the three was a citizen.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> You never paid enough money to pay your Social Security benefits. That comes from others paying Social Security taxes. The government spent what you paid in Social Security taxes for other things. You also did not pay enough in Medicare taxes while working or from your Social Security to pay for your yearly medical benefits if you are even minimally using the system. That comes from the general tax fund because Medicare is broke. So both SS and Medicare are public assistance. The public is paying for your benefits.


That simply is not true. Social Security was set up to subsidize current retirees. Social Security is solvent.Medicare may have some problems, but if you have paid into it, and are at the retirement age or have become disabled, it is a given.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

double post


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## freesia792 (Feb 24, 2012)

FLAT TAX for all! Then everyone can be equally disgruntled. Everyone uses resources, everyone should pay for them. FLAT TAX for ALL!


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> This sounds like communist rhetoric. That certainly hasn't worked well for anyone. It is a failed economic model. Capitism works well when isn't hamstrung by progressive socialist policies.


The commie pinko label does not work anymore. Look up the Mondragon Corporation and the Evergreen Co operatives. Then tell me how those two progressive socialist companies don't work.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> That simply is not true. Social Security was set up to subsidize current retirees. Social Security is solvent.Medicare may have some problems, but if you have paid into it, and are at the retirement age or have become disabled, it is a given.


Way back in the 1940's some underhanded Congressmen saw all that money sitting in Social Security and misappropriated the funds for pork barrel projects. They emptied it. We (the working Americans) almost got it built up again by the 1970's. But 2 thing have happened simultaneously: The Baby Boomers are way too many in number for the payments to cover (either SS or Medicare) and if there were 30 *Million* more dead Americans on the payrolls today, it would be solvent. What happened to the 30 Million dead Americans? They were aborted.


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

jbachman said:


> I work in a tax prep office during tax season. I have learned a lot not only about taxes, but about people.
> 
> When reading (especially on line) on the different options regarding USA taxes it is important to make sure to the reader differetiates between facts and opinions.
> 
> ...


Well said. Thank you for telling it like it is from your perspective; I always appreciate an education from someone who has been in the trenches where true reality is most likely to be found.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

damemary said:


> Do you also admit that rogues, tyrants and thugs exist in the Capitalist World?


They exist and existed everywhere - our current administration, communist regimes, kingships, Iran and other oligarchies. There are bad people and people seeking their own ends in every strata of society. All I was saying about Joe Kennedy is that he was not a nice man while grabbing his loot. There are capitalists that build wealth with principles. Unfortunately, we rarely vote them into office. Somehow, we seem to end up with people who speak like a Christian but don't treat others like they should.


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## elfiestouch (Aug 31, 2011)

woodgirl said:


> I wonder how this country began to think that those who have money ought to give it to those that don't. In this country everyone has the ability to prosper and make as much as they are able. I have struggled all my life, but do not think that someone else who has more should take care of me. We all have the ability to better our lives.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: 
It starts with a good education. Comes from a good family.
If the parents don't care, why should the children. Just look who is on Welfare - very few that have a normal Family life.
No matter what people say - if you want to work, there are enough jobs available. But why work, if you get the same amount for doing nothing. What a country ! ! !


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

StitchDesigner said:


> Way back in the 1940's some underhanded Congressmen saw all that money sitting in Social Security and misappropriated the funds for pork barrel projects. They emptied it. We (the working Americans) almost got it built up again by the 1970's. But 2 thing have happened simultaneously: The Baby Boomers are way too many in number for the payments to cover (either SS or Medicare) and if there were 30 *Million* more dead Americans on the payrolls today, it would be solvent. What happened to the 30 Million dead Americans? They were aborted.


Now that is a new and uniquely crappy way to argue against choice.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Lina said:


> Are you talking sales tax or income tax? 25% of a million is more than 25% of a hundred thousand. If I pay a thousand dollars, then I think everyone should pay a thousand. That is fair.


If it is a sales tax, this would not work. You pay based on what you buy. Buy less, pay less. Buy more, pay more overall. Maybe that would teach Americans frugality.

If we had a flat income tax, it would work the same way. If you make little, you pay little. The problem is that would incentivize not earning much. In fact that is what public assistance does. If you can stay home, make 1/2 of what you did getting up each day to go to work, have less clothing and car expenses, it is easy for many people to stay home. The decision depends on whether you can accept less income.

By the way, I think we could all pay less than 25% if we had a flat income tax applicable to everyone who works.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

carmenl said:


> What is LOLL?


Liberal Ladies of the Left. Their mission statement tells conservatives they are not welcome there.


----------



## bjpkroshay (Mar 18, 2013)

Well spoken, my friend.


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

immunurse said:


> There are fewer people living in poverty in the US (and elsewhere) than ever before. Many US households receiving entitlements bring in over $30,000 per year, including housing subsidies, food stamps, WIC, unemployment, Aid to Dependent Children and more. And they pay NO income tax.
> 
> The poor are getting better off all the time. The rich may be getting richer - some of them, at least, because they take risks, provide good products or services and hire a lot of people. But they are not doing it at the expense of people on welfare.


I don't know where you get your information regarding public assistance; I can't believe your state and federal laws are that much different from mine. I know from 23 years of experience working for my state welfare agency that it has never been that way in my state. Grant amounts are reduced by the amount of unemployment, housing subsidies, child support, property holdings over a certain money amount, and any other income a household receives, including income tax refunds (if some get refunds, they must have paid in!). Eligibility requirements include personal property limits. Any state that doesn't abide by these rules gets sanctioned by the federal government and loses federal funding. States are required to have quality control programs which audit both the welfare agencies and the welfare recipients to ensure proper grant amounts. Fraud charges are brought against both clients and agencies who do not comply with the law.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

freesia792 said:


> FLAT TAX for all! Then everyone can be equally disgruntled. Everyone uses resources, everyone should pay for them. FLAT TAX for ALL!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> LOL you are making a complete fool of yourself once again.
> But who am I to stop you? Keep going Yarnie.


Oh thank you I so appreciate your thoughts and kindness. But then what more can I say to a women with your talents and grace.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Liberal Ladies of the Left. Their mission statement tells conservatives they are not welcome there.


Does it really? Hmm I started that thread and never stated that.
Maybe you need some new glasses?


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Does it really? Hmm I started that thread and never stated that.
> Maybe you need some new glasses?


Oh there you are being gracious again. What would we do with out your lovely thoughts and kindness.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Kim, have you ever heard the CEO of Costco speak? Quite the opposite of Walmart. He pays above the minimum wage and gives cost of living raises regularly. If his employees are happy and doing well, then so is his business.
> Makes sense to me.


Yes, all the people on the right say if the minimum wage is raised, it will destroy jobs. It has been proven that that is a false statement, but they keep saying it anyway. Just like a lot of things the republicans say, if you keep repeating something over and over, even if it has been proven to be wrong, people start to believe it.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> I don't know where you get your information regarding public assistance; I can't believe your state and federal laws are that much different from mine. I know from 23 years of experience working for my state welfare agency that it has never been that way in my state. Grant amounts are reduced by the amount of unemployment, housing subsidies, child support, property holdings over a certain money amount, and any other income a household receives, including income tax refunds (if some get refunds, they must have paid in!). Eligibility requirements include personal property limits. Any state that doesn't abide by these rules gets sanctioned by the federal government and loses federal funding. States are required to have quality control programs which audit both the welfare agencies and the welfare recipients to ensure proper grant amounts. Fraud charges are brought against both clients and agencies who do not comply with the law.


Is it still a rule that if a recipient goes to a training school or even college and happens to get a scholarship or other grant to help with books and expenses that amount is deducted from their welfare grant? I worked with recipients years ago when that was the case.


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## indices (Oct 7, 2011)

I think we should all remember in these discussions that not all of us start off equal at birth. Some not so bright some in the wrong place etc.
Enjoy your wealth but try and not despise those who do not have so much. Remember there are fewer of you than there are of us so the really real world is the one of ordinary people.

Indices


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

NJG said:


> Yes, all the people on the right say if the minimum wage is raised, it will destroy jobs. It has been proven that that is a false statement, but they keep saying it anyway. Just like a lot of things the republicans say, if you keep repeating something over and over, even if it has been proven to be wrong, people start to believe it.


Well you know that old saying you can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time. When it comes to the issue of higher minimum wage and conservatives they are fooled all the time.


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## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

elfiestouch said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
> It starts with a good education. Comes from a good family.
> If the parents don't care, why should the children. Just look who is on Welfare - very few that have a normal Family life.
> No matter what people say - if you want to work, there are enough jobs available. But why work, if you get the same amount for doing nothing. What a country ! ! !


There may be enough jobs out there for everyone who wants to work. But the thing is is when you have a family and single parent due to circumstances beyond your control and you are trying to put food on a table and keep a roof over your kids head and clothes on their back sometimes that job dosen't provide enough money. So the parent has to get some kind of assistance. It is the people who have not expirenced the hardships that are puttting people down for getting assistance. That is not fair. Walk in a persons shoes before you judge. Please lets not be so cruel and critical with each other.


----------



## yorkie1 (Sep 5, 2011)

freeisa; Exactly. That's what I said some posts back. Only fair tax. One tax a flat rate and everyone pays the same. Down with all other taxes.


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Mercygirl76 said:


> This analysis doesn't take into account that the top 5% of taxpayers (who control the majority of money earned) pay less in taxes as a percentage of income because MOST DO NOT HAVE TO CLAIM THE MAJORITY OF THEIR INCOME as wages. Most of their earnings are in capital gains, which are taxed at a lower rate than wages. If the government removed this loophole, and the wealthy had to pay taxes on ALL income (be it wages, capital gains, etc.), we would see a dramatic drop in the deficit.
> 
> And by the way, the milk analysis doesn't hold milk. The middle class has always carried the tax burden of this country. And I would hazard to guess that in the milk analysis, the rich and the poor are sucking at the teat of the middle class, just like in reality.


Right on, Mercygirl76!!!


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

immunurse said:


> There are fewer people living in poverty in the US (and elsewhere) than ever before. Many US households receiving entitlements bring in over $30,000 per year, including housing subsidies, food stamps, WIC, unemployment, Aid to Dependent Children and more. And they pay NO income tax.
> 
> The poor are getting better off all the time. The rich may be getting richer - some of them, at least, because they take risks, provide good products or services and hire a lot of people. But they are not doing it at the expense of people on welfare.


Where do you get your information? As I read what you wrote I sat here with my mouth open wondering how someone could be so miss-informed. Here is a link for you to read from the census bureau. http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/11/15/census-u-s-poverty-rate-spikes-nearly-50-million-americans-affected/

I am living below the poverty level and boy am I ever waiting for this "better off all the time." When will that hit me? I think you don't have a clue what you are talking about.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That's the strategy for the GOP next election. Wahoooooo!



NJG said:


> Yes, all the people on the right say if the minimum wage is raised, it will destroy jobs. It has been proven that that is a false statement, but they keep saying it anyway. Just like a lot of things the republicans say, if you keep repeating something over and over, even if it has been proven to be wrong, people start to believe it.


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

StitchDesigner said:


> Only the younger brother (the 19 year old) and the mother are citizens. And how does he repay the medical school education he was getting...?


I presume the same way many others aren't repaying their college loans. I'm not sure what your point is. It's difficult to attack common practice and win.


----------



## Katsch (Mar 15, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> You never paid enough money to pay your Social Security benefits. That comes from others paying Social Security taxes. The government spent what you paid in Social Security taxes for other things. You also did not pay enough in Medicare taxes while working or from your Social Security to pay for your yearly medical benefits if you are even minimally using the system. That comes from the general tax fund because Medicare is broke. So both SS and Medicare are public assistance. The public is paying for your benefits.


Good point Knit crazy.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And everybody gets one vote.



indices said:


> I think we should all remember in these discussions that not all of us start off equal at birth. Some not so bright some in the wrong place etc.
> Enjoy your wealth but try and not despise those who do not have so much. Remember there are fewer of you than there are of us so the really real world is the one of ordinary people.
> 
> Indices


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

NJG said:


> Where do you get your information? As I read what you wrote I sat here with my mouth open wondering how someone could be so miss-informed. Here is a link for you to read from the census bureau. http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/11/15/census-u-s-poverty-rate-spikes-nearly-50-million-americans-affected/
> 
> I am living below the poverty level and boy am I ever waiting for this "better off all the time." When will that hit me? I think you don't have a clue what you are talking about.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

NJG said:


> Where do you get your information? As I read what you wrote I sat here with my mouth open wondering how someone could be so miss-informed. Here is a link for you to read from the census bureau. http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/11/15/census-u-s-poverty-rate-spikes-nearly-50-million-americans-affected/
> 
> I am living below the poverty level and boy am I ever waiting for this "better off all the time." When will that hit me? I think you don't have a clue what you are talking about.


Right on!


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

sjrNC said:


> "These athletes and celebrities also have charities that they support."
> 
> Are they not considered wealthy! And yes I know they do much good through charities!
> 
> ...


It's wonderful that many rich people give to charity or do charitable works. I really don't care what they do with their $$$$ as long as they pay their fair share in taxes.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> You never paid enough money to pay your Social Security benefits. That comes from others paying Social Security taxes. The government spent what you paid in Social Security taxes for other things. You also did not pay enough in Medicare taxes while working or from your Social Security to pay for your yearly medical benefits if you are even minimally using the system. That comes from the general tax fund because Medicare is broke. So both SS and Medicare are public assistance. The public is paying for your benefits.


I beg to differ. If the US government, mostly under Republican leadership, had never repeatedly borrowed from Social Security and not paid it back, neither Social Security nor Medicare would be in trouble. Do your research.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Wrong. The dead terrorist was not a citizen. Two of the three friends of the wounded terrorist, who were accomplices and removed his computer and backpack from his dorm room are also not citizens. One of the three was a citizen.


Wrong again. Mother and younger son are US citizens for certain. Do your research.


----------



## Katsch (Mar 15, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Does it really? Hmm I started that thread and never stated that.
> Maybe you need some new glasses?


BrattyPatty what an interesting name. Just curious, how did you come by BrattyPatty?


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

kittykatzmom said:


> The more taxes the rich have to pay the more they have to charge for the products they manufacture or services they provide. Our government can't seem to figure this out.


Your statement is true if they want to keep the same amount of money or more in their pocket. Your statement is true if they want to continue to pay themselves and their other top dogs huge bonuses. That statement is not true of some businesses that actually care about the world they live in and the people they share it with, although I think there are fewer and fewer in the latter group.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Dear Ladies on KP since BRATTY PATTY, seems to want everyone to go to the site Denim's Pearls and Prada's to see how nasty we are please do, and see how bad we are. Then please note some of these wonderful left people that one lady defend today, how they really are.


You know that there has been nastiness from your side of the aisle as well. I have read it with my own eyes!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Proof of an Urban Legend?



BrattyPatty said:


> Does it really? Hmm I started that thread and never stated that.
> Maybe you need some new glasses?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

StitchDesigner said:


> Johnny can't read, do simple arithmetic, recognize the USA on a world map, and can't tell you who Ulysses Grant was; the roads throughout the country are a mess; bridges, don't make me laugh; food inspectors that look the other way; homeland security that's real good at harassing John Q. Public; and an EPA that has proven itself out of control over and over again. Just *WHAT* is the government spending our tax money on? Well, between January and March of this year the spend like crazy team of Nobama and Biden have had 8, count 'em, 8 vacations. That's at $4M for each for Nobama and $.5M each for Biden. That's $18M for these guys to not work away from DC. Gee, they aren't doing anything constructive in DC, they could just stay there and save the money.


Please remember that it's our do-nothing Congress that makes the laws, and Congress is being mightily hampered by the GOP obstructionists.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The topic was you and the Christian Right, yarnie. Diversionary tactics.



theyarnlady said:


> This from a devote Catholic who even sent her child to a catholic school. Isn't that true, Nancy.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> You never paid enough money to pay your Social Security benefits. That comes from others paying Social Security taxes. The government spent what you paid in Social Security taxes for other things. You also did not pay enough in Medicare taxes while working or from your Social Security to pay for your yearly medical benefits if you are even minimally using the system. That comes from the general tax fund because Medicare is broke. So both SS and Medicare are public assistance. The public is paying for your benefits.


Not broke yet


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> So what is someone who is proven to be an unfit mother to do if she is pregnant? Tell us her options? Have baby and give it up? You would force someone to give baby to adoption agency? Take baby away at birth and it goes into foster child program (government run)? Force woman to have tubes tied..government intrusion into private life. Force woman to use birth control..more government intrusion. Let me know Janeway, I am eager for your opinion.


My opinion would not matter to you so why do I bother replying to you as I know you from other sites!

The lady who talked about leaving KP was because of people such as you so why don't you Bud Out!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Please ignore theyarnlady aka yarnie. Your head will feel better.



theyarnlady said:


> Please Ingore Bratty Patty,


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

StitchDesigner said:


> Way back in the 1940's some underhanded Congressmen saw all that money sitting in Social Security and misappropriated the funds for pork barrel projects. They emptied it. We (the working Americans) almost got it built up again by the 1970's. But 2 thing have happened simultaneously: The Baby Boomers are way too many in number for the payments to cover (either SS or Medicare) and if there were 30 *Million* more dead Americans on the payrolls today, it would be solvent. What happened to the 30 Million dead Americans? They were aborted.


I have no clue what you're trying to say here. If you're serious, where did you get your information? I love reading legitimate documentation of legitimate facts.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Janeway said:


> My opinion would not matter to you so why do I bother replying to you as I know you from other sites!
> 
> The lady who talked about leaving KP was because of people such as you so why don't you Bud Out!


Bud out as in flowering??


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> They exist and existed everywhere - our current administration, communist regimes, kingships, Iran and other oligarchies. There are bad people and people seeking their own ends in every strata of society. All I was saying about Joe Kennedy is that he was not a nice man while grabbing his loot. There are capitalists that build wealth with principles. Unfortunately, we rarely vote them into office. Somehow, we seem to end up with people who speak like a Christian but don't treat others like they should.


Ah, something we can agree upon!


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Katsch said:


> BrattyPatty what an interesting name. Just curious, how did you come by BrattyPatty?


The name fits the person!


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Bud out as in flowering??


Take the "bud" anyway you please!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

At last! The truth from Yarnie!



theyarnlady said:


> I do it just to annoy you.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

elfiestouch said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
> It starts with a good education. Comes from a good family.
> If the parents don't care, why should the children. Just look who is on Welfare - very few that have a normal Family life.
> No matter what people say - if you want to work, there are enough jobs available. But why work, if you get the same amount for doing nothing. What a country ! ! !


This is a fallacy in today's economy. There are many people, college-educated and not, who are unemployed. Maybe if jobs paid a living wage people would not be forced to go on welfare.


----------



## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)

The problem is you normally don't know the fee until after the visit. The doctors have raised their income quite a bit and they are the cause of so much insurance abuse.


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> Wrong again. Mother and younger son are US citizens for certain. Do your research.


If you are referring to the mother of the dead terrorist, she cannot return to America because she has a warrant for her arrest of shoplifting! Such a nice family! I have not heard anything about them being a US citizen as far as I know they are Russian citizens.


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Please remember that it's our do-nothing Congress that makes the laws, and Congress is being mightily hampered by the GOP obstructionists.


Spoken by a true Democrat! Need a cookie?


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> I beg to differ. If the US government, mostly under Republican leadership, had never repeatedly borrowed from Social Security and not paid it back, neither Social Security nor Medicare would be in trouble. Do your research.


The Democrats have borrowed from it first! Do your research!


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Janeway said:


> My opinion would not matter to you so why do I bother replying to you as I know you from other sites!
> 
> The lady who talked about leaving KP was because of people such as you so why don't you Bud Out!


I am always asking for your input. I am curious about your ideas and responses. If your opinion didn't matter to me I would not ask.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Janeway said:


> Spoken by a true Democrat! Need a cookie?


I'd be afraid to eat a cookie from you. You'd poison a liberal like me.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Bud out as in flowering??


Oh, that was so funny. Good one. I am still laughing. :thumbup:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Janeway said:


> If you are referring to the mother of the dead terrorist, she cannot return to America because she has a warrant for her arrest of shoplifting! Such a nice family! I have not heard anything about them being a US citizen as far as I know they are Russian citizens.


Wrong again, Janeway


----------



## threekidsmom (Feb 8, 2012)

I say none! Taxes are taken from my paycheck before it is even printed! I have no say as to how much they take out and give to welfare, and others. If I had my tax money that they help themselves to, I could live comfortably, and maybe even take a vacation. As things are now, I can't even afford to go around the block!


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Janeway said:


> If you are referring to the mother of the dead terrorist, she cannot return to America because she has a warrant for her arrest of shoplifting! Such a nice family! I have not heard anything about them being a US citizen as far as I know they are Russian citizens.[/quote
> 
> The family came to the US on a tourist visa and then gained asylum. I think the youngest boy is the only one that became a US citizen.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

damemary said:


> Please ignore theyarnlady aka yarnie. Your head will feel better.


Oh thank you for all your kindness, what would i do with out a person like you to help me through my life. Hope your brain gets a little rest too.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

alcameron said:


> You know that there has been nastiness from your side of the aisle as well. I have read it with my own eyes!


Never said that but the above lady keeps mention about how nasty we are on DP and P. do think others should see just how much truth she puts out there. Why not mention some of the sites that she has been on, and how her own friends on there kick her off.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

threekidsmom said:


> I say none! Taxes are taken from my paycheck before it is even printed! I have no say as to how much they take out and give to welfare, and others. If I had my tax money that they help themselves to, I could live comfortably, and maybe even take a vacation. As things are now, I can't even afford to go around the block!


Think of the money you would have if the taxes didn't go to making war. Wow! This country would be in sweet clover for all.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

By George! She got 1 right! Very good, Janeway. It was LBJ who borrowed from SS and did not replace it.



Janeway said:


> The Democrats have borrowed from it first! Do your research!


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

damemary said:


> The topic was you and the Christian Right, yarnie. Diversionary tactics.


no this is what you posted on another site. Your words and no one elses. 
How about the one where you said you do not judge others and were taught to only look for the best in people????

Funny how the words do not match the actions.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Never said that but the above lady keeps mention about how nasty we are on DP and P. do think others should see just how much truth she puts out there. Why not mention some of the sites that she has been on, and how her own friends on there kick her off.


I have no problem with that at all, yarnie. That is all in the past as you can see. And anyone can read the threads.
I unlike you would never have a meltdown online and say the horrible nasty things that you did. Should I copy and paste them for you?


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

damemary said:


> Please ignore theyarnlady aka yarnie. Your head will feel better.


And to add to what already have said please ignore this lady has she has a problem with being nice, wants everyone to think she is the only right one and others she feels should be insulted when not in agreement with her.


----------



## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)

I felt the same way when I was working and now that I am retired I can't afford to go around the block.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I have np problem with that at all yarnie. That is all in the past as you can see. And anyone can read the threads.
> I unlike you would never have a meltdown online and say the horrible nasty things that you did. Should I copy and paste them for you?


Oh please do, and I would love to have you so do it. Would just prove what I have been saying about you all along. No you wouldn't have a melt down as you and your friends love to gang up on others, and please do post some of what you have said too, and the nice way you love to pick on others short coming and their illness. If you want to go for it. make sure you also press the issue tab too.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Keep on going, Yarnie. You are getting smaller and smaller by the minute.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I have no problem with that at all, yarnie. That is all in the past as you can see. And anyone can read the threads.
> I unlike you would never have a meltdown online and say the horrible nasty things that you did. Should I copy and paste them for you?


oh and the pm's you sent out to us on the right you may want us to share them with all your buddy's too.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Oh please do, and I would love to have you so do it. Would just prove what I have been saying about you all along. No you wouldn't have a melt down as you and your friends love to gang up on others, and please do post some of what you have said too, and the nice way you love to pick on others short coming and their illness. If you want to go for it. make sure you also press the issue tab too.


Still blaming it on an illness? Please....


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> By George! She got 1 right! Very good, Janeway. It was LBJ who borrowed from SS and did not replace it.


http://www.sentinelsource.com/opinion/editorial/who-borrowed-the-social-security-taxes-we-paid/article_691d6976-e4a1-5d21-96d3-aa8871f86c92.html

Hey Bratty according to this site and one other it was Ronald Reagan who first borrowed from Social Security. 1983


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Keep on going, Yarnie. You are getting smaller and smaller by the minute.


Oh so thank you for all the kindness you have shown. :thumbup:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> oh and the pm's you sent out to us on the right you may want us to share them with all your buddy's too.


Okay, now I am laughing at you. I didn't send PM's out to the "righties".


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Okay, now I am laughing at you. I didn't send PM's out to the "righties".


Oh funny not what I heard, and never blamed it on illness and you know that. How low can you go lady, please show everyone just how you really are. You and some of your friends. Your really good at it, and would love for everyone to see just what I am talking about.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Knit crazy wrote:
> Kennedy was a capitalist. He found a product and supplied it, albeit an illegal product. He evaded taxes on the liquor though. That would be growing rich off the backs of the poorer folks who paid their taxes. and those who were toting his liquor
> 
> Sounds as if you are trying to "damn" all rich people because of one rich person doing something illegal. Illegal behavior arises out of the heart and is found in all levels of society. The person intent on it uses the means at hand whether it be money, a gun, a knife, a pressure cook, a bat, a wire (garrot). Having money does not make one evil nor does it mean that it was acquired by evil means.
> ...


My, my aren't we hateful! You speak with the forked tongue! Can't you ever be nice to anyone? Take a chill pill!

Knitcrazy is not "knit is crazy" why don't you try to read her name and address her properly as I'm sure she could make fun of your name of Cheeky Blighter. Duh!

Chill out!


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

galinipper said:


> oivey :!:


Me thinks someone does not know how to spell this as it is spelled three different ways by three different ways!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> no this is what you posted on another site. Your words and no one elses.
> How about the one where you said you do not judge others and were taught to only look for the best in people????
> 
> Funny how the words do not match the actions.


 IF I did say that, fine! I just haven't seen any good in you. Nothing but foul language and a bad attitude and a brain the size of a pea.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Janeway said:


> Me thinks someone does not know how to spell this as it is spelled three different ways by three different ways!


 it is a word that has many spellings and interpretations.


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## yorkie1 (Sep 5, 2011)

My o My o My Time for a break. Someone suggest another topic.


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## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

Janeway said:


> If you are referring to the mother of the dead terrorist, she cannot return to America because she has a warrant for her arrest of shoplifting! Such a nice family! I have not heard anything about them being a US citizen as far as I know they are Russian citizens.


Janeway. Yes I heard on thee news that the mother and younger son are U.S. citizens and it was also said that she was wanted for shoplifting. She cannot come to the U.S. because she will get arrested. That I did hear on the news.


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## carriemae (Aug 28, 2012)

I agree tired of supporting people who pay no federal income tax because they don't work and then get my taxes in the form of unearned income tax credits. Flat tax or fair tax would be great everyone should pay something.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I still believe the philanthropy of the wealthy is something we seem to be overlooking. Their very generous gifts go DIRECTLY to those in need, without a metric ton, of red tape! I look around the city I live in, and the University in this city and I see so much good that has been done by the wealthy.

The organizations they have so generously given to, help those who often fall through the cracks of our social welfare/government agencies. 

You may be annoyed that they pay a lower percentage in taxes but they also give so much more. Would you rather they pay more taxes that are then "eaten up" by government administration costs, instead of going to the people in this country that truly need help?

Let's talk specifics. A very wealthy family in this area founded 3 clinics for low income families, one treats adults, one treats children and one is a dental clinic. I deliver drugs to those clinics...very serious medication, like chemotherapy medications. The patients who receive these drugs are treated with dignity and respect..not like cattle who take a number and wait to be killed. I deliver vaccines to the children's clinic, so that every child will be able to receive inoculations against deadly diseases. There's no weeks or months of waiting for these patients and children.

The wealthy do good works, sadly those good works are often overlooked. Tell me, would you rather a person pay $20,000.00 more in taxes, or give $50,000.00 to charities that actually HELP people?

Here's something else to consider. Scholarship programs that puts students with good grades but come from modest back rounds, through college. Who do you think donates the majority of money to those college scholarship funds? 

Most wealthy people are generous, they help in so many great ways. I know that I will never be able to donate a school, a library, provide funds for a young person (who is a stranger to me) to get their college degree, fund a clinic...well the list of things I will never be able to afford to do is endless.

Just saying.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> World War II


and assistance to people to create jobs got folks back to work before the war. Too bad that it ended up being guns vs butter that did the final deed.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

courier770 said:


> I still believe the philanthropy of the wealthy is something we seem to be overlooking. Their very generous gifts go DIRECTLY to those in need, without a metric ton, of red tape! I look around the city I live in, and the University in this city and I see so much good that has been done by the wealthy.
> 
> The organizations they have so generously given to, help those who often fall through the cracks of our social welfare/government agencies.
> 
> ...


And they get tax write offs for their donations.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> The vetrans administration is a massive disgrace. We have young wo/men coming home physically and emotionally wrecked and cannot get the assistance they need. One young man from Kentucky (I will look it up to make sure) was interviewed on Democracy Now and he was considering suicide due to the pain and lack of care. I will post the day of the interview.


Yes, we have the Republicans in Congress to thank for cut backs for our Veterans. The GOP has no problem sending our people off to fight but when they come back home they are on their own. Mrs. Biden and Mrs. Obama have done much to help returning Vet's get the care and the benefits they are entitled to. The GOP is good at waving the flag and that's about it. Thank you for posting and letting more people hear about what is going on.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Solowey, I like the ladies on LOLL. You, not so much.


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## sjrNC (Jul 30, 2012)

Proposed budget increases VA spending  even though that isnt the problem
Posted on April 6, 2013
The Department of Veterans Affairs is proposed to get an overall budget increase of 4%, or $63.5 billion, according to the New York Times.

Of the total budget, the Veterans Benefits Administration, the agency responsible for processing claims, and the backlog, will get a 13.6% increase  $2.5 billion.

While thats all and good, you cant solve problems by simply throwing money at them.

Paul Rieckhoff, executive director of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America and a leading critic of the department, called Fridays budget announcement welcome but added that no one has said this is a money problem.

Really what were talking about is execution, he said.

Even Secretary of Veterans Affairs Eric Shinseki has said the problem isnt one of money  as seen in The Daily Show clips in a previous article  the agency has received budget increases at a time when other agencies are taking cuts.

The problems at the VA are not going to be solved with money  no matter how much you give them. There needs to be a fundamental shift in the agency  one that eliminates the bureaucracy and streamlines the process for veterans to get needed medical care or disability claims paid.

Until that happens, the VAs problems are only going to get worse.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> FDR's meddling in the economy extended the depression longer than it needed to be.


Wrong.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Janeway said:


> Me thinks someone does not know how to spell this as it is spelled three different ways by three different ways!


On purpose


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> HOW NICE. Yet another display of your discussion abilities. Best keep these abilities under lock and key in your own thread.


Got a crush on Donald and that thing on his head, Solowey?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> http://www.sentinelsource.com/opinion/editorial/who-borrowed-the-social-security-taxes-we-paid/article_691d6976-e4a1-5d21-96d3-aa8871f86c92.html
> 
> Hey Bratty according to this site and one other it was Ronald Reagan who first borrowed from Social Security. 1983


I found my statement here:
http://www.factcheck.org/2004/04/lies-in-the-e-mail-part-2/


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter wrote:
You don't even have a state tax in TX so what are you crying about. Texas, totally forgettable. You don't have good schools either and it shows.


This is the evidence of the type of discussions you and your "club" have on your LOLL thread? Are we ever lucky not to be invited to join you. Once again you have proven my point that you are so sickeningly sweet to each other on LOLL that you have to invade other political threads and spew your poor behavior and put down anyone with a differing opinion. HOW NICE.

soloweygirl



Poor soloweygirl - You have your club and I have mine. We have tried to be civil but you don't want to play nice. I haven't invaded anyone's thread. These threads belong to all KP users.
You know that.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Wow. That is the truth!!! Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the mess this country is in.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: 
Good advice for those who perpetually have their hands out while refusing to work.


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## alwilda (Apr 14, 2011)

How about all the free loaders out there that want the goverment to take care of them?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

alwilda said:


> How about all the free loaders out there that want the goverment to take care of them?


Wow! How about them? yes there are some who abuse the system, and there are those who have no choice if they want a roof over their head and food to feed their children.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter wrote:
So what was it that p p'd you off. Was it that you were enjoying calling people dumb-sses when you thought no one would notice or care. Was it the rear end of the donkey emblem I embedded in the post I still just love love love it. You'll get over it, just move along in the same little path with the rest of your group of Laughable Little Liberals.

galinipper

Go play over on Denim and Pearls where they can bless you and cast that demon out of you. Why would a man your age want to come out here and spend your time with women? Don't you get enough attention at home or are you a single fellow? Straight or gay or like Marcus Bachmann, uncommitted?


Galinipper, the more you piss them off, the nastier they get. You must be on to something or hit a nerve. You go girl.

soloweygirl

No you are wrong. I just think your buddy acts awfully masculine for a woman. None of you irritate me, you just amuse me. I am here for the entertainment value you provide. Can't have an intelligent discussion with you you are just a bunch of brawlers. What keeps you coming out here?


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## gina (Jan 18, 2011)

Now that there are "personalized" deals in the big chain supermarkets, everyone is not paying the same price for that milk now. Kroger says, well, nobody pays more than the price listed, so what's your problem? 

My problem is that it's unfair. I don't have a smart phone to get that app, so I pay more than the guy in front of me for the exact same thing. 

And there are other ways they do it. Tracking through your card that you have to use to get sale price., they offer lower prices to people who buy a lot of higher priced items.


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## marmarcas (Apr 2, 2011)

All I know is that Mitt Romney with all his money (millions, I think) proudly pays 15%. The same as I do and my total adjusted gross income for the past few years averages $15,000-$18,000. I don't think that's fare. Sure dollar wise he pays TONS more than I do, but he can afford it. It aggravates me that people like him have so many loopholes.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.

Where do these attitudes come from? I don't understand the belief that the poor got that way because they made bad decisions, didn't work hard in school, had children before they were married or didn't stay married. Talk about lacking logic!! Nothing like blaming the poor because they're poor. This is absolutely ridiculous. Maybe they had massive medical bills and had no insurance. Maybe the job they had was sent to Indonesia. Maybe the company they worked for "downsized" and because they're 56 years old can't get hired.
Maybe the job they have pays little money and they aren't capable of doing a higher level position. Why so much disdain for people who are not well-off?


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Like the Boston bombing brothers and their parents? Why do we pay non-citizens welfare? It would be cheaper if we didn't let them come here or stay unless they could support themselves. A coach ticket home would have been cheaper than 10 years of welfare payments.
> 
> I say let anyone come who can work and does work or who has money to survive without working. They should house themselves, feed their families, pay for their own health care, and have to pay taxes (higher rate for aliens to incentivize them to become a citizen and reimburse us for educating their children). If they can't make it here, they couldn't make it anywhere in the world.
> 
> Liberals are bankrupting this country because they want to "take care of everyone even aliens." This is a self-perpetuating problem that could be solved.


How right you are! But there are those on KP who will only rant and rave insanely against anyone who is successful and anyone who objects to supporting those who won't help themselves, such as illegal aliens, and welfare cheats.
These wackos are also contributing to the ruination of our beloved country with their socialist and Marxist leanings.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

alwilda said:


> How about all the free loaders out there that want the goverment to take care of them?


Right....and it is becoming generational.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Something to peruse from my side of the political spectrum


Wed, May 1, 2013 at 4:07 PM4:07 PM
Message starred
from Green Shadow Cabinet to you 
May Day Statement of Immigration Secretary Meneses Sandoval
Show Details

Statement of Gloria Meneses Sandoval, Secretary of Immigration, for the Green Shadow Cabinet on May Day, 2013:
May 1, 2013
Gloria Meneses Sandoval
The Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013 (S. 744), is an 844 page document presented by the so-called Gang of 8  consisting of four Democrats and four Republican Senators. The actual name of this bill should be the Border Militarization, National ID, Corporate and Prison Subsidy, and Family Separation Act. In place of full citizenship, this Act attempts to stabilize and maintain the second-class status of non-citizen immigrants.

The immigrant communities have long been waiting for real reform and took their cause to the streets in the 2006 May Day Marches that took place throughout the United States. The immigrant population focused on the 2008 and 2012 elections with the, Yesterday we marched, today we vote slogan, and a Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) was introduced by President Obama in August of 2012, netting him 73% of the Latino vote, as well as significant numbers of Asian, African-American, and Caucasian voters. And while DACA became a short-term work option for some Dreamers - those whose families can afford an average $500 to $1,000 for each family member that qualifies - it resulted in no adjustment of permanent status. In DACAs first year, the Obama administration deported 400,000 immigrants, nearly as many as have applied for the DACA program itself.

This International Workers Day, as marchers across the United States again demand full and equal rights for immigrant workers, including the right to unionize, we agree and call for a moratorium on all detentions and deportations, an end to the separation of families, the renegotiation of NAFTA and CAFTA and other international policies that have produced an unparalleled international migration, and for citizenship, not second-class status, for all working people in this country. It is time to ensure, protect, and prioritize the human rights and needs of all migrants and all people living in the United States and beyond. Inclusion, not exclusion!


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

momeee said:


> How right you are! But there are those on KP who will only rant and rave insanely against anyone who is successful and anyone who objects to supporting those who won't help themselves, such as illegal aliens, and welfare cheats.
> These wackos are also contributing to the ruination of our beloved country with their socialist and Marxist leanings.


Amen momee. :thumbup:


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

momeee said:


> How right you are! But there are those on KP who will only rant and rave insanely against anyone who is successful and anyone who objects to supporting those who won't help themselves, such as illegal aliens, and welfare cheats.
> These wackos are also contributing to the ruination of our beloved country with their socialist and Marxist leanings.


Yes, don't take care of the least among us. Let them die in the streets. Let them get treatment at the ER. Let their children never see adulthood. I don't hate successful people, I just want them to pay their fair share. Nobody likes welfare cheats. What so you propose to do about it? 
Our beloved country is only beloved to the "haves."


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Amen momee. :thumbup:


I'm surprised at your attitude CB. Surely you would want to help the least among us. Why the disdain? When we have people who aren't "making it" for whatever reason, we can't just look the other way, and our charities and churches can't take care of so many. It's left to the government to do something.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

courier770 said:


> I still believe the philanthropy of the wealthy is something we seem to be overlooking. Their very generous gifts go DIRECTLY to those in need, without a metric ton, of red tape! I look around the city I live in, and the University in this city and I see so much good that has been done by the wealthy.
> 
> The organizations they have so generously given to, help those who often fall through the cracks of our social welfare/government agencies.
> 
> ...


Thank you. There are so many wonderful of examples of generosity, large and small that help people in need. However the Nay-Sayers, or Lefties here- I'm sure you've read their rants- will tell you that the wealthy don't give enough, and they only do it for tax breaks, etc. These folks feel there should be no wealth; there needs to be redistribution of the goodies. (Eventually the wealthy will get totally disgusted, move their funds out of the country and the charities will suffer.) There are close to 1000 pages of this garbage on the thread "Smoking & Obamacare" . Before I read a post now, I scroll down the avatars so I know what I will automatically skip and not reply to.


----------



## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

courier770 said:


> I still believe the philanthropy of the wealthy is something we seem to be overlooking. Their very generous gifts go DIRECTLY to those in need, without a metric ton, of red tape! I look around the city I live in, and the University in this city and I see so much good that has been done by the wealthy.
> 
> The organizations they have so generously given to, help those who often fall through the cracks of our social welfare/government agencies.
> 
> ...


Thank you. There are so many wonderful of examples of generosity, large and small that help people in need. However the Nay-Sayers, or Lefties here- I'm sure you've read their rants- will tell you that the wealthy don't give enough, and they only do it for tax breaks, etc. These folks feel there should be no wealth; there needs to be redistribution of the goodies. (Eventually the wealthy will get totally disgusted, move their funds out of the country and the charities will suffer.) There are close to 1000 pages of this garbage on the thread "Smoking & Obamacare" . Before I read a post now, I scroll down the avatars so I know what I will automatically skip and not reply to.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

CarolfromTX wrote:
The choices you make determine the life you lead. Things happen to people that are unfortunate or unforeseeable, but it is an individual's choice how to deal with it. Those choices define who we are. And the sad fact is that many people make bad choices, time after time.




RUKnitting


Don't break your arm's patting yourselves on the back ladies.
Thought for the day. "Pride goeth before the fall." Have a blessed day.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Way out!



Janeway said:


> The name fits the person!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My dear, I have no idea what you mean.



theyarnlady said:


> no this is what you posted on another site. Your words and no one elses.
> How about the one where you said you do not judge others and were taught to only look for the best in people????
> 
> Funny how the words do not match the actions.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

momeee said:


> Thank you. There are so many wonderful of examples of generosity, large and small that help people in need. However the Nay-Sayers, or Lefties here- I'm sure you've read their rants- will tell you that the wealthy don't give enough, and they only do it for tax breaks, etc. These folks feel there should be no wealth; there needs to be redistribution of the goodies. (Eventually the wealthy will get totally disgusted, move their funds out of the country and the charities will suffer.) There are close to 1000 pages of this garbage on the thread "Smoking & Obamacare" . Before I read a post now, I scroll down the avatars so I know what I will automatically skip and not reply to.


How enlightened, open, and willing to see, read, or hear another perspective.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Janeway's back to zero. No surprises.



peacegoddess said:


> http://www.sentinelsource.com/opinion/editorial/who-borrowed-the-social-security-taxes-we-paid/article_691d6976-e4a1-5d21-96d3-aa8871f86c92.html
> 
> Hey Bratty according to this site and one other it was Ronald Reagan who first borrowed from Social Security. 1983


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Lina said:


> The liberals out there are all about "fairness",but they want "fairness" at someone elses expense. Then they get the nasty mouth and start name calling.


...and when they cannot mount an effective response, or defense to disarm those who they consider Righties, they become rabid. They probably forgot to take their meds.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

momeee said:


> Thank you. There are so many wonderful of examples of generosity, large and small that help people in need. However the Nay-Sayers, or Lefties here- I'm sure you've read their rants- will tell you that the wealthy don't give enough, and they only do it for tax breaks, etc. These folks feel there should be no wealth; there needs to be redistribution of the goodies. (Eventually the wealthy will get totally disgusted, move their funds out of the country and the charities will suffer.) There are close to 1000 pages of this garbage on the thread "Smoking & Obamacare" . Before I read a post now, I scroll down the avatars so I know what I will automatically skip and not reply to.


There are many wealthy people who are very charitable and there are probably many who are not. That they give or create charities does not let them off the hook for paying their fair share to support the workings of the government. I give to charity, and you probably do, too. We still pay our taxes, don't we? Check out what has happened to the tax rate for the wealthy over time. Why do people want to protect the rich? They have a ton of tax loopholes to take advantage of, and many are not salaried, but live off investments and capitals gains, taxed at a lower rate. I just don't get it.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

momeee said:


> Thank you. There are so many wonderful of examples of generosity, large and small that help people in need. However the Nay-Sayers, or Lefties here- I'm sure you've read their rants- will tell you that the wealthy don't give enough, and they only do it for tax breaks, etc. These folks feel there should be no wealth; there needs to be redistribution of the goodies. (Eventually the wealthy will get totally disgusted, move their funds out of the country and the charities will suffer.) There are close to 1000 pages of this garbage on the thread "Smoking & Obamacare" . Before I read a post now, I scroll down the avatars so I know what I will automatically skip and not reply to.


Do you have any idea how difficult it is for non profit agencies that assist the poor and low income to get significant funding from corporations? Try talking to the fundraising people in such agencies before you make remarks about the largess of corporations.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I'm surprised at your attitude CB. Surely you would want to help the least among us. Why the disdain? When we have people who aren't "making it" for whatever reason, we can't just look the other way, and our charities and churches can't take care of so many. It's left to the government to do something.


Andrea you don't sound like yourself tonight. You know how I feel about helping people . I won't go into it again.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Thanks, yarnie, I'm so glad you care. :thumbup:


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Is it still a rule that if a recipient goes to a training school or even college and happens to get a scholarship or other grant to help with books and expenses that amount is deducted from their welfare grant? I worked with recipients years ago when that was the case.


That was the rule when I retired; I don't know for a fact what the policy is now, but given that policy gets tougher when state and federal funds get tighter, I wouldn't be surprised.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

FDR is appreciated by those who lived through the Great Depression and credit him with saving the nation through his leadership and creativity. To me, that's living history. I'm sure you're looking forward to the time when no one will personally remember the tales of hardship and despair and you will be able to rewrite history.



joeysomma said:


> Don't think so, If historians don't agree, how can you say I am wrong?
> 
> 28.Democrat Franklin Delano Roosevelt (1882-1945) became president in March 1933 and promised a New Deal for the American people. During his first hundred days, he attempted to create jobs by establishing federal organizations that were nicknamed Alphabet Agencies, such as the TVA, NRA, CCC, and WPA. Economists and historians continue to debate whether Roosevelts actions actually deepened and lengthened the Depression.
> 
> ...


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Andrea you don't sound like yourself tonight. You know how I feel about helping people . I won't go into it again.


CB I DO know how you feel about helping people out, that's why I have such a difficult time understanding why you feel the way you do when the government has to do it. We both do charitable works, but I can see that our church charities and non-profits don't have the wherewithal to help all those in need. There are too many who aren't being reached for whatever the reason, and that's where the government needs to step in. I guess that's our point of disagreement. I didn't mean to antagonize you in any way. Sorry if I did.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

alcameron said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.
> 
> Where do these attitudes come from? I don't understand the belief that the poor got that way because they made bad decisions, didn't work hard in school, had children before they were married or didn't stay married. Talk about lacking logic!! Nothing like blaming the poor because they're poor. This is absolutely ridiculous. Maybe they had massive medical bills and had no insurance. Maybe the job they had was sent to Indonesia. Maybe the company they worked for "downsized" and because they're 56 years old can't get hired.
> Maybe the job they have pays little money and they aren't capable of doing a higher level position. Why so much disdain for people who are not well-off?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :?: :?: :?:


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

momeee said:


> How right you are! But there are those on KP who will only rant and rave insanely against anyone who is successful and anyone who objects to supporting those who won't help themselves, such as illegal aliens, and welfare cheats.
> These wackos are also contributing to the ruination of our beloved country with their socialist and Marxist leanings.


Red commie baiting is so last century and unworthy of someone who wants to be taken seriously. Undocumented people come here because they do want to help themselves. And welfare people are desirous of achieving better things for themselves and their children.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

I think we should all remember in these discussions that not all of us start off equal at birth. Some not so bright some in the wrong place etc.
Enjoy your wealth but try and not despise those who do not have so much. Remember there are fewer of you than there are of us so the really real world is the one of ordinary people.

Indices

indices

How right you are and it is getting even harder for people just to pay for the basic needs in life. I hope they enjoy their wealth too and can answer to God when asked what did you do to help your brother and sister? They say they are Christians but they worship money. Things will all come to light in the end. Hang in there, Indices. We will survive and thrive. :thumbup:


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

NJG said:


> Janeway said:
> 
> 
> > If you are referring to the mother of the dead terrorist, she cannot return to America because she has a warrant for her arrest of shoplifting! Such a nice family! I have not heard anything about them being a US citizen as far as I know they are Russian citizens.[/quote
> ...


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

medusa said:


> For those who believe that corporations pay their fair share please read below. It is the page from VT Senator Bernie Sanders 4/25/13 issue of his email newsletter:
> 
> "Here is a list of 15 large profitable corporations that have used
> offshore tax havens to avoid paying U.S. income taxes:
> ...


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> True, luck factors in, but where does the expectation come from that it is my responsibility or the governments when someone is unlucky. Each person needs to plan their life.
> - Don't get married until you can afford it.
> - Don't have children if you can't afford it.
> - Don't buy a new house you can afford only if you are lucky.
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## 48barb (Mar 24, 2011)

I totally agree with you. I'm not rich, but have worked all my life to raise my kids and instil a work ethic in them. They all work and owe nothing

If you don't work you won't get rich
If you are able-bodied but won't work you deserve to stay poor.



CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

BrattyPatty wrote:
That simply is not true. Social Security was set up to subsidize current retirees. Social Security is solvent.Medicare may have some problems, but if you have paid into it, and are at the retirement age or have become disabled, it is a given.


Way back in the 1940's some underhanded Congressmen saw all that money sitting in Social Security and misappropriated the funds for pork barrel projects. They emptied it. We (the working Americans) almost got it built up again by the 1970's. But 2 thing have happened simultaneously: The Baby Boomers are way too many in number for the payments to cover (either SS or Medicare) and if there were 30 Million more dead Americans on the payrolls today, it would be solvent. What happened to the 30 Million dead Americans? They were aborted.

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
Matt 4:4

Stitchdesigner so that is the reason you are against abortion so there will be more people to support you in your old age? What is wrong with you? Then you quote the Bible, Bless your sweet little Christian heart. TBBC


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

sam0767 said:


> Perfectly said!!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I work 40 hrs a week, I will tell you what I make a hour....$9.25. I started out working at this job $8.50 an hour. My job is not easy. It took me 3 years to get up to what I am making right now. No raises until this last fall. I have not missed 1 day of work. I come in 15 min early when I am scheduled to come in. I am always the one that picks up where needed and have worked many double and triple shifts. I have worked a double shift and gone home and gotten a couple hours sleep and come back and do it all over again for another 8 hours. Come the first of the month I have to pay rent. Once that is paid I am broke for 2 weeks. Yes I get some assistance. I could not survive if I didnt. I have no medical insuranace, can't afford it. Food?? Well there are times when bills come before food and I eat rice and crackers. I make homemade soup and eat off that for a couple weeks. I do not live beyond my means. Yes I have a cell phone. I use it for work also. So that is not wasted money. I don't drive to work I walk to work since I work in the same complex I live in. That saves me some money. I don't eat out nor do I order out. Can't afford it. I have to work. I would love to retire but at 63 years old and am tired and would love to be able to retire in a couple years don't see that happening. Why? Because witht he state the economy is in I can't afford it. I finished high school, took some college courses. But cannot afford to continue college. Oh and lets not forget food stamps. I am not ashamed to say I get them. Wanna know how much I get a month? A whopping $16 a month. I am grateful for that. I just let it build up for a couple months and then use it. So don't get all worked up with those of us who are scrapping because we didn't go to school and pay attention. We don't spend our money wisely. It is people like you that I am afraid irritate me because you judge instead of seeing the true facts of why there is some hardships going on with people.I am glad you are finically set. Good for you. My daughter is a pharm tec and has 4 children. Her husband walked out onher thinking the grass was greener on the other side. He barely pays any child support. Her 4th child, she got pregnant by another man she was in a relationship with and her tubes were tied and she got pregnant. Thought she was safe. No she did not want to abort the baby and we thought that she would have to until we found out that he was okay. She makes good money working for a hospital. And will pick up extra hours when they are available. She also pays rent on a house and food and utilities. Never goes out even when all the kids are at their fathers week. Why she can't spare the money to go out and enjoy herself. You my dear is very critical of people and their circumstances and need to look further than what things appear. Now I am done and will get off my soap box here and pretend that I did not read this post.


I have said for years, no one listened, that people like you and your daughter, the working poor, should be helped with the incentives that the non-working welfare recipients get. Even though some would say that the minimum wage is a living wage, it isn't , especially when one considers that the govt. entitlement cost per year is approximately $60,000. per welfare recipient. The cost to keep criminals incarcerated is equally high, and that doesn't include the benefits then paid to their families...housing, college, welfare, Medicaid. Where is the justice??? people who WON'T work should suffer. We need to reward those who have fallen on hard times or those who do try to take care of themselves and their families. We should make it easier for them and harder for the slugs. IMHO


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

alwilda said:


> How about all the free loaders out there that want the goverment to take care of them?


Where are all these freeloaders you are talking about?


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

momeee said:


> I have said for years, no one listened, that people like you and your daughter, the working poor, should be helped with the incentives that the non-working welfare recipients get. Even though some would say that the minimum wage is a living wage, it isn't , especially when one considers that the govt. entitlement cost per year is approximately $60,000. per welfare recipient. The cost to keep criminals incarcerated is equally high, and that doesn't include the benefits then paid to their families...housing, college, welfare, Medicaid. Where is the justice??? people who WON'T work should suffer. We need to reward those who have fallen on hard times or those who do try to take care of themselves and their families. We should make it easier for them and harder for the slugs. IMHO


Can you please provide your source of information? I don't believe your numbers. Anyone can make stuff up. Is that what you are doing?


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## cheeny (Mar 12, 2013)

CarolfromTX said:


> What about the people who pay no taxes at all? I'd love to go to a flat tax -- a percentage of income, so that everyone has some skin in the game, so to speak. Just how much of my income do you think the government is entitled to?


if you get right down to it, it is not how much of your income does anyone think the government is entitled to; its how much of your income can the government is entitled to give away to those that don't pay income tax is what you are concerned about.

:lol:


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Janeway said:


> Most of those children are born out of wedlock by irresponsible parents who do not try to prevent pregnancy in the first place. It is the children who suffer.
> 
> A friend I know was taking care of 3 children because the mother was no where to be found...
> 
> ...


Janeway, you are so correct. Yet,there are many instances where a mom hits a rough patch and needs temporary help or relief until she can get herself together. But the over-burdened social-worker (Welfare system) goes overboard in support for the parent's rights, rather than the children's best interests."Reunification" is the desired goal, and it is an honerable one. But how many strikes does a drug addicted or mentally ill parent get? I've seen kids bounced from foster home ( some great, some bad) back to the dysfunctional parent for years. The kids suffer. They have no sense of security or future. They feel unloved, unwanted and abused. And they are!! When the state finally terminates the parent rights and the kids are released and available for adoption, most often they are considered too old, undesirable, and too screwed up for placement. It is awful and heartbreaking, and in my opinion criminal. There have been days when I've felt that if a parent cannot take full responsibility for her child, after being given opportunities to improve, the kid should be permanently removed before more damage can be done. If you know any foster kids, ask them what they'd like to have happen.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Can you please provide your source of information? I don't believe your numbers. Anyone can make stuff up. Is that what you are doing?


I NEVER make anything up. U don't believe anything that isn't written by u or your pals. if a source is provided, u disparage it if it isn't liberal enough. Look up my claims, if they matter.. Info is available. U want everyone else to prove what they post but you contribute nothing of substance.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Bratty Patty -- your SSI is not taxed.
> 
> SSI is Supplemental Security Income you would only get that if you are very poor, unable to work have little property, or are mentally challenged. This income is not reported to the IRS
> 
> If you are over 62 or disabled you may have SSA, from the Social Security Administration. This MAY be taxed (up to 85%) depending on your other income. It may or may not be taxed by your state. It is not taxed in Wisconsin.


Thanks joey for bringing that up. I always thought SSI was Social Security Insurance. I do have to file taxes on my ssa
and I also pay 150.00 per month for the medicare, which is taken out monthly from my SS check

Now I know the difference. Thanks again


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

immunurse said:


> There are fewer people living in poverty in the US (and elsewhere) than ever before. Many US households receiving entitlements bring in over $30,000 per year, including housing subsidies, food stamps, WIC, unemployment, Aid to Dependent Children and more. And they pay NO income tax.
> 
> The poor are getting better off all the time. The rich may be getting richer - some of them, at least, because they take risks, provide good products or services and hire a lot of people. But they are not doing it at the expense of people on welfare.


You are right, and it is the working person who takes it on the chin. They are the ones who should be helped and given incentives for working. Those who aren't working should have time limits for entitlements.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Wrong. The dead terrorist was not a citizen. Two of the three friends of the wounded terrorist, who were accomplices and removed his computer and backpack from his dorm room are also not citizens. One of the three was a citizen.


I'd like to know who is paying for their education, living expenses, as they aren't citizens. And their visas had expired, i believe. 
The Boston Globe reported that the bombers' parents received over $100,000. in assistance.
Is America too generous, too trusting? Who is keeping track of the foreign students?


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## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

alcameron said:


> CB I DO know how you feel about helping people out, that's why I have such a difficult time understanding why you feel the way you do when the government has to do it. We both do charitable works, but I can see that our church charities and non-profits don't have the wherewithal to help all those in need. There are too many who aren't being reached for whatever the reason, and that's where the government needs to step in. I guess that's our point of disagreement. I didn't mean to antagonize you in any way. Sorry if I did.


I think most people care deeply about our neighbours and communities but have different ideas about who is responsible to provide help and what that help involves. Every community I've ever lived in has always been supportive of those needing help - financially, volunteering time or both.

Government money comes from taxes, fees and borrowing so ultimately WE are the source of funding. Large government bureaucracies are very costly and inefficient in providing services so if money is left in the hands of individuals, local goverrnments and agencies services can be provided more effectively. Local communities are also more aware of what services are needed in their region and it can be tailored to meet those needs.

I'm more than prepared to continue giving my time and money to those who have needs that they can't meet but I don't want to be an enabler of bad or destructive behaviour. I also find it offensive when labels like "uncaring, uncharitable, unchristian, greedy, etc" are put to those of us who don't agree with how services are presently provided.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Think of the money you would have if the taxes didn't go to making war. Wow! This country would be in sweet clover for all.


It is my understanding that in addition to the money and supplies we've given to Syria, there is a possibility that we'll continue to support the Rebels, or it is the Brotherhood?, with even more supplies, and munitions. Hopefully no American soldiers will be sent


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

west coast kitty said:


> I think most people care deeply about our neighbours and communities but have different ideas about who is responsible to provide help and what that help involves. Every community I've ever lived in has always been supportive of those needing help - financially, volunteering time or both.
> 
> Government money comes from taxes, fees and borrowing so ultimately WE are the source of funding. Large government bureaucracies are very costly and inefficient in providing services so if money is left in the hands of individuals, local goverrnments and agencies services can be provided more effectively. Local communities are also more aware of what services are needed in their region and it can be tailored to meet those needs.
> 
> I'm more than prepared to continue giving my time and money to those who have needs that they can't meet but I don't want to be an enabler of bad or destructive behaviour. I also find it offensive when labels like "uncaring, uncharitable, unchristian, greedy, etc" are put to those of us who don't agree with how services are presently provided.


What do you propose for all who are not being helped by charity? What do you do with the working poor who can't pay the rent? What about medical expenses? I don't believe we really understand the depth and complexity of the problem.


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

kim82352 said:
 

> Yes, Lina, you could look at it that way, that YOUR money is YOURS. But our government is a democracy. The government is US. We have a responsibility to give money to elected officials in government to perform functions that help the American people. Of course not all of it is used wisely. And a fair percentage to pay for taxes is up for debate. BUT... where do you think the government gets money for schools, roads, bridges, food inspectors, homeland security, clean air, clean water etc.


How much is enough? How much is fair? Our government is a Republic not a democracy.


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> If you read the small print, you will learn that the Boston Bombers and their parents are American citizens.


The Boston Bombers collected over one hundred thousand dollars in government benefits. The younger brother is a citizen. I think the fater is still in Russia.


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Something to peruse from my side of the political spectrum
> 
> Wed, May 1, 2013 at 4:07 PM4:07 PM
> Message starred
> ...


Why not start a new thread?


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> BrattyPatty wrote:
> That simply is not true. Social Security was set up to subsidize current retirees. Social Security is solvent.Medicare may have some problems, but if you have paid into it, and are at the retirement age or have become disabled, it is a given.
> 
> Way back in the 1940's some underhanded Congressmen saw all that money sitting in Social Security and misappropriated the funds for pork barrel projects. They emptied it. We (the working Americans) almost got it built up again by the 1970's. But 2 thing have happened simultaneously: The Baby Boomers are way too many in number for the payments to cover (either SS or Medicare) and if there were 30 Million more dead Americans on the payrolls today, it would be solvent. What happened to the 30 Million dead Americans? They were aborted.
> ...


The Social Security fund was raided by LBJ in the mid 60's. The money went into the Generl Fund.
He spent it on the 'Great Society', and the Vietnam War. (Which JFK got us into)


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

You can only write off charitable contributions if they are going to a recognized and registered "not for profit", the same is available to EVERYONE, not just the wealthy.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Lina said:


> Why not start a new thread?


Why in the world would anyone other than the migrant workers (assuming they are here legally) want to provide them benefits that our constitution allows citizens? Citizens should get benefits, not non-citizens. Well, I guess PeaceGoddess should fork over her income to pay them benefits, I sure don't want my money wasted on that.

I recognize the value migrant workers provide in planting, working in the fields and harvesting our food. They get paid to do that. Paid more than they get in their home country. That's why they come bere to work. If they want to stay in this country and become a citizen, good decision. Just don't jump the border illegally and then expect to become a citizen. This country doesn't need to provide the benefit of citizenship to people who have broken our laws.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> Something to peruse from my side of the political spectrum
> 
> Wed, May 1, 2013 at 4:07 PM4:07 PM
> Message starred
> ...


This organization is not legitimate. It is just a well organized group of progressives who want to look like they are appointed by our government to examine an issue. They are lefties with their cause of overthrowing legitimate governance. Ignore this attempt to legitimize them.


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## BTRFLY (Mar 2, 2011)

I love the free education we give away here in America. How did the youngest of the Boston bombers afford Dartmouth college? I heard he was on public assistance. We had to pay the entire bill for the college education of our three children. Just boggles my mind :roll:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Yes, but you must have money to donate and only a portion of that results in tax savings. In other words, the deduction the wealthy are more able to benefit, tax-wise.



courier770 said:


> You can only write off charitable contributions if they are going to a recognized and registered "not for profit", the same is available to EVERYONE, not just the wealthy.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

momeee said:


> You are right, and it is the working person who takes it on the chin. They are the ones who should be helped and given incentives for working. Those who aren't working should have time limits for entitlements.


They do--forty-seven states require Welfare recipients to work, and forty-eight suspend cash benefits after a given period of time, usually twelve months or less. California requires women with children to work a minimum of thirty-four hours per week, and as a result the state is virtually bankrupt--when Welfare recipients are forced to work someone has to care for their children, and in most cases that's more than these minimum-wage moms are capable of earning. Like it or not it's more cost-effective to let mothers with limited education and career opportunities stay home to care for their kids.


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## sjrNC (Jul 30, 2012)

CALWORKS CHILD CARE PROGRAM


The availablity of quality child care is essential to the success of CalWORKs. To ensure an adequate supply of child care resources to recipients and those transitioning off welfare to work, AB 1542 eliminated seven former welfare related childcare programs and consolidated them into the three-stage CalWorks childcare programs.
The purpose of this program is to help a family transition smoothly from the immediate, short-term child care needed as the parent starts work or work activities to the stable, long-term child care necessary for the family to leave and remain off aid.
The CalWORKs Child Care Program is administered in three stages. Stage One is administered by the county welfare departments. Stages Two and Three are administered by Alternative Payment Program (APP) agencies under contract with the California Department of Education (CDE).
The three stages of CalWORKs child care are defined as follows:
Stage One begins with a family's entry into the CalWORKs program. Clients leave Stage One after six months or when their situation is stable, and when there is a slot available in Stage Two or Three.
Stage Two begins after six months or after a recipient's work or work activity has stablilized, or when the family is transitioning off of aid. Clients may continue to receive child care in Stage Two up to two years after they are no longer eligible for aid.
Stage Three begins when a funded space is available and when the client has acquired the 24 months of child care, after transitioning off of aid (for former CalWORKs recipients).

Seems your state offers child care help for these women. I would assume other states do to.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> This organization is not legitimate. It is just a well organized group of progressives who want to look like they are appointed by our government to examine an issue. They are lefties with their cause of overthrowing legitimate governance. Ignore this attempt to legitimize them.


You are paranoid.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

sjrNC said:


> CALWORKS CHILD CARE PROGRAM
> 
> The availablity of quality child care is essential to the success of CalWORKs. To ensure an adequate supply of child care resources to recipients and those transitioning off welfare to work, AB 1542 eliminated seven former welfare related childcare programs and consolidated them into the three-stage CalWorks childcare programs.
> The purpose of this program is to help a family transition smoothly from the immediate, short-term child care needed as the parent starts work or work activities to the stable, long-term child care necessary for the family to leave and remain off aid.
> ...


My state is indeed very generous with childcare--and that costs big bucks. This is something non-Welfare mothers are familiar with--quality full-time daycare ranges from $500-$700 per child in most areas, and for the mother with two or more kids it may not be feasible for her to work outside the home.


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## Kathie (Mar 29, 2011)

Okay..... Time out. Now everyone has repeatedly gone over this problem on both sides and both sides have legitimate concerns. Can we at least agree with that. Now how about trying to come up with solutions. Are we going to tax people so much it shuts down enterprise? Are we going to let people die from exposure, medical issues or hunger? How are we going to fix these problems. Shouting at each other from either side isn't going to change anything. Let's spend as much effort trying to fix things.


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## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

Kathie said:


> Okay..... Time out. Now everyone has repeatedly gone over this problem on both sides and both sides have legitimate concerns. Can we at least agree with that. Now how about trying to come up with solutions. Are we going to tax people so much it shuts down enterprise? Are we going to let people die from exposure, medical issues or hunger? How are we going to fix these problems. Shouting at each other from either side isn't going to change anything. Let's spend as much effort trying to fix things.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> They do--forty-seven states require Welfare recipients to work, and forty-eight suspend cash benefits after a given period of time, usually twelve months or less. California requires women with children to work a minimum of thirty-four hours per week, and as a result the state is virtually bankrupt--when Welfare recipients are forced to work someone has to care for their children, and in most cases that's more than these minimum-wage moms are capable of earning. Like it or not it's more cost-effective to let mothers with limited education and career opportunities stay home to care for their kids.


Single moms are damned if they work outside of the home and damed if they stay and work inside the home with their children. Minimum wage does not cover the costs of living for a single mom. If they get a job and childcare is supplemented for a period of time the moment they earn 25 cents over the qualifying income for supplemented childcare they loose the supplement.

Ironically, childcare is expensive to afford, but childcare providers are some of the lowest paid workers.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

momeee said:


> I have said for years, no one listened, that people like you and your daughter, the working poor, should be helped with the incentives that the non-working welfare recipients get. Even though some would say that the minimum wage is a living wage, it isn't , especially when one considers that the govt. entitlement cost per year is approximately $60,000. per welfare recipient. The cost to keep criminals incarcerated is equally high, and that doesn't include the benefits then paid to their families...housing, college, welfare, Medicaid. Where is the justice??? people who WON'T work should suffer. We need to reward those who have fallen on hard times or those who do try to take care of themselves and their families. We should make it easier for them and harder for the slugs. IMHO


Unfortunately, if you are looking for justice you will need to wait for Heaven. There is no true justice in this world. I disagree about paying benefits to working Americans and don't think welfare has helped anyone who can work become more self-sufficient. Only those too old or young to work or too disabled to work should receive any benefits and only legal citizens should be eligible.

Welfare creates a self-perpetuating downtrodden citizenry. Once on the dole, always on the dole mentally. Our history of more and more benefits has taught Americans to put their hand out and keep it out, always expecting something for no contribution to society. That's the same lesson history teaches us about why communism failed.

The original goal if communism was based on an idea of the masses working together to build a utopian society. It didn't work because it is inately human to want a benefit based on effort expended. Doctors and factory workers differ in amount if money spent on education, years spent training, and responsibilities accepted. In no way should pay be equal for these careers. Those who can and don't work should not earn in benefits what a factory worker who rises at dawn to stand for hours on concrete floors earns. The unemployed should be provided an opportunity to work, not a pay check.

If the breakdown of our society due to drugs, drink and government handouts rather than families helping families had not occurred, we'd all be better off. Certainly, welfare families would be better off - they'd be working. President Clinton's effort to limit welfare benefits was successful in getting many off the dole. Now we have a president who wants to reverse this trend. Ask yourself why. Maybe he finds it politically beneficial for there to be a permanent underclass. More dependent on government = more citizens the government can control with the threat to take away checks.


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## sjrNC (Jul 30, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> My state is indeed very generous with childcare--and that costs big bucks. This is something non-Welfare mothers are familiar with--quality full-time daycare ranges from $500-$700 per child in most areas, and for the mother with two or more kids it may not be feasible for her to work outside the home.


Childcare is very expensive. I often wonder if some working mothers take the cost into account when they return back to work, although I know some have no choice because of family situations.

Yes childcare workers are some of the lowest paid, it is a shame.


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## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> Single moms are damned if they work outside of the home and damed if they stay and work inside the home with their children. Minimum wage does not cover the costs of living for a single mom. If they get a job and childcare is supplemented for a period of time the moment they earn 25 cents over the qualifying income for supplemented childcare they loose the supplement.
> 
> Ironically, childcare is expensive to afford, but childcare providers are some of the lowest paid workers.


I did daycare in my home for 30 years. 15 of those years were licnessed. It is a low paying job considering the fact that you have stat paid kids that the state would pay a portion or all of the day care. There were some where the state paid a portion and the the parents paid the balance. Once that happened I would get excuses why they could nt pay. I worked with all the parents for payments. I did alot for the families. Provided good wholesome meals, out of my own pocket and taught the kids and worked with the kids that were going to enter kindergarden thefollowing year so they were on top of things and not strting out behind. My day care was successful but I noticed that as things changed with the state things began to change with the parents. I began losing money and even though the quality of care didn't change the quality of cooperation with the parents changed and it got to where even though it was a rough decision for me I chose to get out of that business. Even the state was making changes as far as new rules and things for the providers. So I got out of the business. I pretty much would call around to other providers and see what they offered for charges for they parents and would base my rates around that and pretty much kept things in between the rates in my area.

I saw some abuse cases and twice I had to report them to the state. I didn't want to but tried working with the parents and did all I could to not have to report them. But some people are so overwhelmed and saw no light at the end of the tunnel and didn't try. Did I lose money along the way? Yes I did. But I walked away knowing I did make a diffrence in some if not most of their lives when they were in my day care. I run into some that I had through the years nad they are grown up with kids of their own. Some are successful and doing okay. Some are struggling. But I do get a "THank you" from alot of them for what I did for them and taught them when they were in my care. Some of the ones that are struggling is of no fault of their own. It is the economy. They were gradulated college students and once they got out of college with degrees they can't find a job in the professsion they went through college for. Sad but true.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Lina said:


> Why not start a new thread?


Immigration issues are already on this thread. Just going with the flow.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

sam0767 said:


> I did daycare in my home for 30 years. 15 of those years were licnessed. It is a low paying job considering the fact that you have stat paid kids that the state would pay a portion or all of the day care. There were some where the state paid a portion and the the parents paid the balance. Once that happened I would get excuses why they could nt pay. I worked with all the parents for payments. I did alot for the families. Provided good wholesome meals, out of my own pocket and taught the kids and worked with the kids that were going to enter kindergarden thefollowing year so they were on top of things and not strting out behind. My day care was successful but I noticed that as things changed with the state things began to change with the parents. I began losing money and even though the quality of care didn't change the quality of cooperation with the parents changed and it got to where even though it was a rough decision for me I chose to get out of that business. Even the state was making changes as far as new rules and things for the providers. So I got out of the business. I pretty much would call around to other providers and see what they offered for charges for they parents and would base my rates around that and pretty much kept things in between the rates in my area.
> 
> I saw some abuse cases and twice I had to report them to the state. I didn't want to but tried working with the parents and did all I could to not have to report them. But some people are so overwhelmed and saw no light at the end of the tunnel and didn't try. Did I lose money along the way? Yes I did. But I walked away knowing I did make a diffrence in some if not most of their lives when they were in my day care. I run into some that I had through the years nad they are grown up with kids of their own. Some are successful and doing okay. Some are struggling. But I do get a "THank you" from alot of them for what I did for them and taught them when they were in my care. Some of the ones that are struggling is of no fault of their own. It is the economy. They were gradulated college students and once they got out of college with degrees they can't find a job in the professsion they went through college for. Sad but true.


Childcare providers and teachers are the unsung heroes/heroines of all times and places. They spend a tremendous amount of time with our children and many give 200% of their time, skills, and yes, love to children who are not their own. Providers are on their toes, knees, and alert to the needs of the children in their care. Childcare providers deserve medals. In addition to better pay.


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## LINDA DREW (Jan 13, 2012)

I don't mid paying my fair share, I just don't want to pay everyone's fair share! If you, as a tax payer want to share more, by all means do so, just don't ask me to too. I was brought up to work hard for what you want and you will get what you need. Not put your hand out and expect it. I think it's time to cut the "gold card" standard and live within our means.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> Unfortunately, if you are looking for justice you will need to wait for Heaven. There is no true justice in this world. I disagree about paying benefits to working Americans and don't think welfare has helped anyone who can work become more self-sufficient. Only those too old or young to work or too disabled to work should receive any benefits and only legal citizens should be eligible.
> 
> Welfare creates a self-perpetuating downtrodden citizenry. Once on the dole, always on the dole mentally. Our history of more and more benefits has taught Americans to put their hand out and keep it out, always expecting something for no contribution to society. That's the same lesson history teaches us about why communism failed.
> 
> ...


So what is your solution for mothers who want to work and the pay is not sufficient to cover costs?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> Unfortunately, if you are looking for justice you will need to wait for Heaven. There is no true justice in this world. I disagree about paying benefits to working Americans and don't think welfare has helped anyone who can work become more self-sufficient. Only those too old or young to work or too disabled to work should receive any benefits and only legal citizens should be eligible.
> 
> Welfare creates a self-perpetuating downtrodden citizenry. Once on the dole, always on the dole mentally. Our history of more and more benefits has taught Americans to put their hand out and keep it out, always expecting something for no contribution to society. That's the same lesson history teaches us about why communism failed.
> 
> ...


There are people who work to bring justice to the here and now. I am curious if you made the effort to check out the two co operatives I mentioned earlier. Mondragon corporation and Evergreen Co Operative.


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## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

damemary said:


> Sometimes I wonder if the people criticizing the 'takers' have ever personally benefited from government largesse....at any time in their lives....in any form......and have conveniently 'forgotten it.' Anyone know what I mean?


 Well, probably so. And they are the ones who through the first stone!


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## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

alcameron said:


> What do you propose for all who are not being helped by charity? What do you do with the working poor who can't pay the rent? What about medical expenses? I don't believe we really understand the depth and complexity of the problem.


I believe we have a different concept of what the problem is and how to resolve it. I didn't suggest that ALL assistance should be provided by charity but that any taxes assessed for social services should be paid directly to local government and agencies who could provide services more efficiently. Lower taxes also gives people more disposable income for spending and for donations.

I'm Canadian and there are some differences in how services are provided - but as I understand it, rent and food subsidies are provided to low income families in both of our countries. There are differences in how medical care is administered and I think we each have issues to resolve there.

I believe that "big government and the nanny state" is a major part of the problem and not the means to a solution. I believe in providing support to help people who cannot live independently and to help people get back on their feet but not to keep them dependent. I don't believe in providing services that enable people to maintain their dependence on social services, addictions or other harmful choices


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## jbachman (Jan 19, 2011)

Somehow I have "lost" pages of this thread. This morning I finished page 46 and now the updates I receive only go to page 41. Anyone able to explain to me?


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## cheryl ridgway (Jan 31, 2013)

Dear Knit crazy,
I saw a story on our local news station last night about how the farmers on the central coast and central valleys of California have been desperate for trained field workers for several years. Some have had to let their crops die on the vine for lack of workers. Perhaps this is only an issue in California. But in these areas of our state, agriculture is a major industry. Much of what they grow feeds a lot of the rest of the country. When I drive past the fields and see workers hunched over picking strawberries, I have only great respect for them. I am pretty sure that you wouldn't see a "white legal US citizen" out there in the fields. I remember that in the '60's we had a migrant guest worker program where the workers would come to the US to work but would go to their home countries in off seasons. I hope the proposed immigration reform bills have something like this.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> So what is your solution for mothers who want to work and the pay is not sufficient to cover costs?


PeaceGoddess (PG), it amazes me when someone does not get educated enough to take care of themself and then has children. Unwed mothers bought into this problem when they got pregnant without the support of a husband. It takes two people to support a child. My suggestions for all struggling single mothers:

- Sue the father for support. You don't have to have an attorney to do so. Go to the courthouse and ask for assistance with the paperwork to file. When you get to court either an attorney will be appointed for you or you can do it yourself.

- If the mother is getting support, but it is not enough, go back to court for more support.

- Parents could help her. We are helping our daughter with childcare because her ex is not a good parent. i realize it is not always the mother's fault. Our daughter graduated from college and grad school. She married and didn't rush into parenthood. She has an impressive work history and makes a good salary. Unfortunately, her husband is mentally ill even though he can work.

- Find a roommate or two to share expenses. She could babysit for you, and you could babysit for her. One could work nights and one days.

- Get more education. With a low income, educational assistance is available.

- Work to make laws that protect children from deadbeat dads. Contact your state reps and federal ones too.

- Do what you can to help a mother you know is struggling, but keep the help local if you can. Our federal government's support is ineffective, poorly managed, and the cost is exorbitant.

It is interesting PG that your question implies it is the fault of the mother's employer not paying a better wage. The employer offered the job at that rate. Why did she take it? It is not the employer's role to figure out what each person's needs are. If the mother is dissatisfied, get a different job. I suspect the employer won't have difficulty finding someone else to work for that pay rate. If they can't, they will pay more. Basic supply and demand.


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## Kathie (Mar 29, 2011)

You do realize that even if we could wave a magic wand and make everyone college educated and willing to work there still wouldn't be enough jobs that would support a family. We also need people willing to take the "grudge" jobs that no one else really wants. Does that mean they shouldn't be able to have a decent life? What do we do with the people who don't have the intelligence to do "professional" work? Let them live in poverty? Problems like this are the reason we don't seem to be able to fix this.


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## yorkie1 (Sep 5, 2011)

Goodbye all!!! Thought this subject might be gone with this new day. No such luck!
I won't be back as long as this continues. Fight it out!!!


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## cheryl ridgway (Jan 31, 2013)

Kathy, I really like your compassion and good sense of how complex the issue of poverty is. Personally, I would rather allow the ones who are cheating the system to get away with it rather than allowing the "worthy poor" to go without the necessities of life. "As you do to the least of my brethren, you do unto me."


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> PeaceGoddess (PG), it amazes me when someone does not get educated enough to take care of themself and then has children.


I think you're missing the point that no woman with children, no matter what her financial situation, can be entirely independent. Even the most highly-paid executive has to rely on nannies, day care centers, tutors, after-school programs etc etc--and if any one of these caregivers fail the supposedly self-sufficient mom is trapped in her house with a wailing infant.

Someone asked what the solution is, and to the rightists it's pretty obvious: don't have children. No matter how secure our marriages and jobs may seem there are no guarantees in life. Many Europeans have come to the same conclusion and choose to have just one child or none at all--and their governments are in a panic that the birth rate is now lower than the replacement rate. French and German mothers actually earn bonuses for having extra children. People scream bloody murder at the thought of government-subsidized daycare, but how much louder their cries will be if American women in the future have to be bribed to have children.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Why in the world would anyone other than the migrant workers (assuming they are here legally) want to provide them benefits that our constitution allows citizens? Citizens should get benefits, not non-citizens. Well, I guess PeaceGoddess should fork over her income to pay them benefits, I sure don't want my money wasted on that.
> 
> I recognize the value migrant workers provide in planting, working in the fields and harvesting our food. They get paid to do that. Paid more than they get in their home country. That's why they come bere to work. If they want to stay in this country and become a citizen, good decision. Just don't jump the border illegally and then expect to become a citizen. This country doesn't need to provide the benefit of citizenship to people who have broken our laws.[/quote/]
> 
> Well said. I believe most Americans agree with you.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

BTRFLY said:


> I love the free education we give away here in America. How did the youngest of the Boston bombers afford Dartmouth college? I heard he was on public assistance. We had to pay the entire bill for the college education of our three children. Just boggles my mind :roll:


While it wasn't the Ivy League Dartmouth College, located in Hanover, NH, it was the University of Massachusetts, at Dartmouth, in southeastern Massachusetts, a fine state university, which is not free to residents.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I think you're missing the point that no woman with children, no matter what her financial situation, can be entirely independent. Even the most highly-paid executive has to rely on nannies, day care centers, tutors, after-school programs etc etc--and if any one of these caregivers fail the supposedly self-sufficient mom is trapped in her house with a wailing infant.
> 
> Someone asked what the solution is, and to the rightists it's pretty obvious: don't have children. No matter how secure our marriages and jobs may seem there are no guarantees in life. Many Europeans have come to the same conclusion and choose to have just one child or none at all--and their governments are in a panic that the birth rate is now lower than the replacement rate. French and German mothers actually earn bonuses for having extra children. People scream bloody murder at the thought of government-subsidized daycare, but how much louder their cries will be if American women in the future have to be bribed to have children.


Very condesending for you always telling everyone what the "rightest" believe. I think people can understand without you always attacking and giving your version of what the right has to say. Just sayin'. You being left cannot speak for me.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

OK, then talk. Tell us what the solution is.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Kathie said:


> Okay..... Time out. Now everyone has repeatedly gone over this problem on both sides and both sides have legitimate concerns. Can we at least agree with that. Now how about trying to come up with solutions. Are we going to tax people so much it shuts down enterprise? Are we going to let people die from exposure, medical issues or hunger? How are we going to fix these problems. Shouting at each other from either side isn't going to change anything. Let's spend as much effort trying to fix things.


Kathie, 
I agree,but therein lies the dilemma...so little agreement here, within a group of mostly similar women( yes, some men), with relatively similar life histories, experiences, but not beliefs. How do belief systems get changed? Who gets to decide which belief system is right or best...I'm not sure agreement is really possible when you throw in all the ignorance, anger, bias, envy and just plain stubbornness, in addition to varying degrees of education, life experiences ...all of which contribute to changing beliefs. As you've probably seen, there are some kind, generous, insightful people here who have ideas about how the government should operate...who aren't in agreement. When you add to the mix those who are here for the purpose of denigrating everything that is said that they don't agree with- without contributing - and in fact being obstructionist, i.e., wanting to cause trouble - there is our government in a nutshell.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Unfortunately, if you are looking for justice you will need to wait for Heaven. There is no true justice in this world. I disagree about paying benefits to working Americans and don't think welfare has helped anyone who can work become more self-sufficient. Only those too old or young to work or too disabled to work should receive any benefits and only legal citizens should be eligible.
> 
> Welfare creates a self-perpetuating downtrodden citizenry. Once on the dole, always on the dole mentally. Our history of more and more benefits has taught Americans to put their hand out and keep it out, always expecting something for no contribution to society. That's the same lesson history teaches us about why communism failed.
> 
> ...


You have very strong and negative opinions regarding welfare. How many of them have you developed from being up close and personal? Surely you realize the success stories don't get printed or interviewed, even though there are many waiting to be told. I'm always surprised when folks take so little note of reality that they see everything in black or white, which covers only the extremes in life. What about the shades of gray, which are what most of us live in? To take the extremes on either side and present them as absolutes just doesn't compute.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Unfortunately, if you are looking for justice you will need to wait for Heaven. There is no true justice in this world. I disagree about paying benefits to working Americans and don't think welfare has helped anyone who can work become more self-sufficient. Only those too old or young to work or too disabled to work should receive any benefits and only legal citizens should be eligible.
> 
> Welfare creates a self-perpetuating downtrodden citizenry. Once on the dole, always on the dole mentally. Our history of more and more benefits has taught Americans to put their hand out and keep it out, always expecting something for no contribution to society. That's the same lesson history teaches us about why communism failed.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your insightful view, which I agree with...other than my belief that more should be done to reward those who are working, trying to improve their circumstances, and get off welfare, and to make it less pleasant to remain on the dole. One obvious solution: don't pay more for more kids...or, horrors, remove them permanently from the irresponsible breeders who aren't prepared to care for more kids. If benefits were cut, you'd see a declining birth rate in a certain population. Another solution: if the mother can't or won't name the sperm donor, take DNA from kids and when the culprit shows up in the system, make him pay, or face castration.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

sam0767 said:


> I did daycare in my home for 30 years. 15 of those years were licnessed. It is a low paying job considering the fact that you have stat paid kids that the state would pay a portion or all of the day care. There were some where the state paid a portion and the the parents paid the balance. Once that happened I would get excuses why they could nt pay. I worked with all the parents for payments. I did alot for the families. Provided good wholesome meals, out of my own pocket and taught the kids and worked with the kids that were going to enter kindergarden thefollowing year so they were on top of things and not strting out behind. My day care was successful but I noticed that as things changed with the state things began to change with the parents. I began losing money and even though the quality of care didn't change the quality of cooperation with the parents changed and it got to where even though it was a rough decision for me I chose to get out of that business. Even the state was making changes as far as new rules and things for the providers. So I got out of the business. I pretty much would call around to other providers and see what they offered for charges for they parents and would base my rates around that and pretty much kept things in between the rates in my area.
> 
> I saw some abuse cases and twice I had to report them to the state. I didn't want to but tried working with the parents and did all I could to not have to report them. But some people are so overwhelmed and saw no light at the end of the tunnel and didn't try. Did I lose money along the way? Yes I did. But I walked away knowing I did make a diffrence in some if not most of their lives when they were in my day care. I run into some that I had through the years nad they are grown up with kids of their own. Some are successful and doing okay. Some are struggling. But I do get a "THank you" from alot of them for what I did for them and taught them when they were in my care. Some of the ones that are struggling is of no fault of their own. It is the economy. They were gradulated college students and once they got out of college with degrees they can't find a job in the professsion they went through college for. Sad but true.


Bless you for being a daycare provider, and even more, for reporting abuse when you became aware of it. It is underpaid monetarily, but there must be a great deal of satisfaction in knowing you served as a bright light in a dark world for many over that period of time.


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## cheryl ridgway (Jan 31, 2013)

momeee said:


> Thank you for your insightful view, which I agree with...other than my belief that more should be done to reward those who are working, trying to improve their circumstances, and get off welfare, and to make it less pleasant to remain on the dole. One obvious solution: don't pay more for more kids...or, horrors, remove them permanently from the irresponsible breeders who aren't prepared to care for more kids. If benefits were cut, you'd see a declining birth rate in a certain population. Another solution: if the mother can't or won't name the sperm donor, take DNA from kids and when the culprit shows up in the system, make him pay, or face castration.


So, momee, do you believe in encouraging birth control? are you in favor of forced sterilization for women on welfare who have too many kids? Are you a pro-choice supporter? I think these are important questions for you to answer if you support cutting off financial support to children born to irresponsible women.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> So what is your solution for mothers who want to work and the pay is not sufficient to cover costs?


I'm waiting on the edge of my chair for the answer to this question. Some of the greatest minds have not been able to answer it. It seems easier for many to judge, condemn, and tear down what is rather than come up with positive, workable solutions.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Childcare providers and teachers are the unsung heroes/heroines of all times and places. They spend a tremendous amount of time with our children and many give 200% of their time, skills, and yes, love to children who are not their own. Providers are on their toes, knees, and alert to the needs of the children in their care. Childcare providers deserve medals. In addition to better pay.


Yes, kudos to the child care providers who are over burdened with regulations and uncooperative parents , and underpaid and under appreciated.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

momeee said:


> Thank you for your insightful view, which I agree with...other than my belief that more should be done to reward those who are working, trying to improve their circumstances, and get off welfare, and to make it less pleasant to remain on the dole. One obvious solution: don't pay more for more kids...or, horrors, remove them permanently from the irresponsible breeders who aren't prepared to care for more kids. If benefits were cut, you'd see a declining birth rate in a certain population. Another solution: if the mother can't or won't name the sperm donor, take DNA from kids and when the culprit shows up in the system, make him pay, or face castration.


It sounds as though you're talking about animals. "Irresponsible breeders?"
I don't believe people think about the consequences of their actions, and I don't think the birth rate would decline if benefits were cut. I can hardly believe you're talking about human beings! You seem to think that the father will always be able to support the child(ren), and if he can't he gets castration? What century are you living in? Do you understand how you're coming across?
These are draconian suggestions at best, and I hope you don't think our government would actually do this.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> PeaceGoddess (PG), it amazes me when someone does not get educated enough to take care of themself and then has children. Unwed mothers bought into this problem when they got pregnant without the support of a husband. It takes two people to support a child. My suggestions for all struggling single mothers:
> 
> - Sue the father for support. You don't have to have an attorney to do so. Go to the courthouse and ask for assistance with the paperwork to file. When you get to court either an attorney will be appointed for you or you can do it yourself.
> 
> ...


Wonderful suggestions and information. Yes, women do find themselves in situations they were not expecting...job loss, illness, death, etc. and deserve help. But how many welfare recipients are unwed moms, with multiple kids from multiple sperm donors? The USA has been a too willing accomplice in perpetuating this problem. If there were more hardship, hunger, etc., many would attempt to be self- reliant.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

momeee said:


> Thank you for your insightful view, which I agree with...other than my belief that more should be done to reward those who are working, trying to improve their circumstances, and get off welfare, and to make it less pleasant to remain on the dole. One obvious solution: don't pay more for more kids...or, horrors, remove them permanently from the irresponsible breeders who aren't prepared to care for more kids. If benefits were cut, you'd see a declining birth rate in a certain population. Another solution: if the mother can't or won't name the sperm donor, take DNA from kids and when the culprit shows up in the system, make him pay, or face castration.


And who would enforce your over-the-top solutions? The government? The military? The police? I thought conservatives were against dependence on those sources. I'll bet you're anti-choice, too, unless it's forced upon the poor. How are all of these children going to feel about being ripped away from their families? It appears that you have a police state in mind.  What happens when your son or grandson strays and faces castration, or your daughter or granddaughter is raped and becomes pregnant as a consequence? Your paintbrush is way too broad and simplistic.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

momeee said:


> Wonderful suggestions and information. Yes, women do find themselves in situations they were not expecting...job loss, illness, death, etc. and deserve help. But how many welfare recipients are unwed moms, with multiple kids from multiple sperm donors? The USA has been a too willing accomplice in perpetuating this problem. If there were more hardship, hunger, etc., many would attempt to be self- reliant.


If they don't commit suicide first because of the hostile, rejecting, judgmental attitudes they face. Who is going to make the decision as to which ones are deserving and which ones need to be kicked into the gutter? What makes you think each and every case is that clear cut?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> And who would enforce your over-the-top solutions? The government? The military? The police? I thought conservatives were against dependence on those sources. I'll bet you're anti-choice, too, unless it's forced upon the poor. How are all of these children going to feel about being ripped away from their families? It appears that you have a police state in mind. What happens when your son or grandson strays and faces castration, or your daughter or granddaughter is raped and becomes pregnant as a consequence? Your paintbrush is way too broad and simplistic.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

momeee said:


> Wonderful suggestions and information. Yes, women do find themselves in situations they were not expecting...job loss, illness, death, etc. and deserve help. But how many welfare recipients are unwed moms, with multiple kids from multiple sperm donors? The USA has been a too willing accomplice in perpetuating this problem. If there were more hardship, hunger, etc., many would attempt to be self- reliant.


ONLY IN AMERICA? I hope not


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

cheryl ridgway said:


> So, momee, do you believe in encouraging birth control? are you in favor of forced sterilization for women on welfare who have too many kids? Are you a pro-choice supporter? I think these are important questions for you to answer if you support cutting off financial support to children born to irresponsible women.


I believe in not having children until one is prepared to be a responsible parent. How pregnancy is prevented should be a personal choice, as should abortion. I would not want my, or anyone's beliefs pushed on another. Yet, after one accidental pregnancy, the woman should be taught about options, and consequences of irresponsibility. She should not view her reproductive tract as the gold card....
And, yes, I know a goodly number of single moms, single through a variety of reasons who are exemplary mothers.. Some have needed intermittent help; others were fully prepared to enter into motherhood with an education, good job, supportive family, etc. I applaud all of them.

While I'd not like to ever think of sterilization, I do think there are some adults who have neglected and abused their kids so badly that they shouldn't have more, especially at the govt.expense. By irresponsible, I mean irresponsible to a large continuous degree, leaving the kids alone, unfed, unsupervised, in a dirty harmful environment, negligent, abandoning, harmful, over a repeated time, while being given support, help,education, etc. I am an advocate for kids FIRST, and have seen too many kids lives ruined by such parents- as I've written about numerous times.
I would not cut off support to the children...I would not reward the mother with increases money and bennies; stricter limits would be placed on what she could buy with her EBT card, or food stamps, along with where those entitlements could be spent. No more visits to the masseur, nail or hair salon,movies, bars, ...Perhaps if the mom were a little hungry, or looked less than enticing, she'd take some incentive to better her situation and that of her kids.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> There are people who work to bring justice to the here and now. I am curious if you made the effort to check out the two co operatives I mentioned earlier. Mondragon corporation and Evergreen Co Operative.


Mondragon is a Spanish corp showing a downturn in assets, equity, consolidated results, deposits, sales, jobs, % members over co-operative workforce, % women in co-operative workforce, worker-members share capital from 2010 to 2011, the last posted stats. Not a great example of a successful business.

Evergreen Co-Operative is located in Cleveland, Ohio, and is a co-operative founded in 2008. It is getting HUD subsidies to heal Cleveland. Cooperative members are the Cleveland Clinic, the Cleveland Foundation, University Hospitals, Case Western Reserve University, and the municipal government. The goals are to hire workers making less than $18,500/ yr. I see no information on the website that show how the business is doing. Typical for a quasi-government organization. But, you can bet it is costing plenty to shore up their green agenda. Once again PeaceGoddess is focusing on who is getting helped and not the cost to Americans who are funding the effort. For all we know, this could be another Solyndra waiting to happen. It has no business model to make it grow without federal and local welfare.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

What makes you think each and every case is that clear cut?[/quote said:


> I don't think any case is clear cut. But right now it is a free- for-all give away.
> Some sense needs to be applied.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

momeee said:


> I don't think any case is clear cut. But right now it is a free- for-all give away.
> Some sense needs to be applied.


You are so right.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

alcameron said:


> It sounds as though you're talking about animals. "Irresponsible breeders?"
> I don't believe people think about the consequences of their actions, and I don't think the birth rate would decline if benefits were cut. I can hardly believe you're talking about human beings! You seem to think that the father will always be able to support the child(ren), and if he can't he gets castration? What century are you living in? Do you understand how you're coming across?
> These are draconian suggestions at best, and I hope you don't think our government would actually do this.


Sorry if I sound draconian to you. I don't mean it quite that harshly. But I am so thoroughly disgusted with what I see, personally, that I am rattling some trees in as many ways as I can. Yes, I am talking about irresponsible, lazy humans - the ones who want to be taken care of without having any responsibility for their actions and who are willing to procreate to maintain their life styles. Would you like me to send you videos of gals advocating that way of life?


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## Lina (Jan 17, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Why in the world would anyone other than the migrant workers (assuming they are here legally) want to provide them benefits that our constitution allows citizens? Citizens should get benefits, not non-citizens. Well, I guess PeaceGoddess should fork over her income to pay them benefits, I sure don't want my money wasted on that.
> 
> I recognize the value migrant workers provide in planting, working in the fields and harvesting our food. They get paid to do that. Paid more than they get in their home country. That's why they come bere to work. If they want to stay in this country and become a citizen, good decision. Just don't jump the border illegally and then expect to become a citizen. This country doesn't need to provide the benefit of citizenship to people who have broken our laws.


The illegals use the schools, hospitals, public transportation,
clinics, etc


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> Liberal Ladies of the Left. Their mission statement tells conservatives they are not welcome there.


No it doesn't - why would you say that? It just says to please post positively.


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

kittykatzmom said:


> The problem is you normally don't know the fee until after the visit. The doctors have raised their income quite a bit and they are the cause of so much insurance abuse.


This is not true. All you need to do is ASK for a copy of the physicians' fee schedule. Fee schedules of MD's participating in Medicare are determined by Medicare and physicians have no authority to change it. They can bill whatever they like but Medicare and other insurances determine what they will pay. Doctors have not raised their income nor are they the cause of insurance abuse. Please provide specific example to what you are referring. Lawyers and litigation are a major cause of increased health care costs as physicians need to practice defensive medicine in the event of lawsuit. Many tests are prescribed due to the possibility of a lawsuit. Tests which physicians consider unnecessary.

When seeing a physician it is good practice to ask what information the physician will get from the test, MRI, etc.. And ask if it is necessary for them to provide treatment of your problem.

Interesting that ocare did not even address this major, well-documented cause of our escalating health care costs.

And if you pay out of pocket for your physician fees then it is a good idea to shop just like you would when buying a new car and negotiate as when you purchase a home.


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## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> Bless you for being a daycare provider, and even more, for reporting abuse when you became aware of it. It is underpaid monetarily, but there must be a great deal of satisfaction in knowing you served as a bright light in a dark world for many over that period of time.


At the end of the day and I got those hugs and I love yous from the kids it made it all worth while. I do miss it and would love to go back into it but the complex I live in right now changed their policy since I lived here before and will not allow private companies operating here.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> PeaceGoddess (PG), it amazes me when someone does not get educated enough to take care of themself and then has children. Unwed mothers bought into this problem when they got pregnant without the support of a husband. It takes two people to support a child. My suggestions for all struggling single mothers:
> 
> - Sue the father for support. You don't have to have an attorney to do so. Go to the courthouse and ask for assistance with the paperwork to file. When you get to court either an attorney will be appointed for you or you can do it yourself.
> 
> ...


It's my turn to be amazed. All of your suggestions for struggling singles have been in effect in my state for 25-30 years.

Support Specialists work full time to assist the clients and the courts in collecting child support. Of course, the welfare payment is reduced by the amount of the child support amount, it isn't "extra" income.

The amount of child support and the employment of the supporting parent is monitored by the court and the Support Specialist on an ongoing basis.

Parents are not legally responsible for adult children. At one point 50 years ago some states tried to force parents to contribute, including the state I'm in. It was found to be unconstitutional and discontinued.

Many have roommates and do exactly what you suggest; this has been going on for decades.

There are already laws regarding child support, see above. I don't know what you mean by "laws that protect children from deadbeat dads." How does that differ from child support requirements?

What local funding is available to help struggling mothers on an ongoing basis? There are occasional, one time only sources in some communities via churches, but they simply don't have the funding to keep up their buildings, their congregational needs, and tend to the needs of outsiders as well. Several of the churches in my community, which is considered one of the more wealthy, can no longer afford to hire janitorial services and have to hold special fund drives to cover repairs to their buildings and equipment.

Obviously you aren't familiar with the current job market, either. In order to continue receiving any assistance, an able-bodied client MUST take a job--any job available. There simply isn't a backlog of more satisfying, higher paying jobs for anyone these days. A college degree isn't an automatic guarantee of any job, let alone one above minimum wage.

I don't think you have a clear understanding of the current laws, welfare system, or job market. To think that your suggestions are new and different simply isn't the case. It might be wise to check into things instead of repeating misinformation.


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

courier770 said:


> I still believe the philanthropy of the wealthy is something we seem to be overlooking. Their very generous gifts go DIRECTLY to those in need, without a metric ton, of red tape! I look around the city I live in, and the University in this city and I see so much good that has been done by the wealthy.
> 
> The organizations they have so generously given to, help those who often fall through the cracks of our social welfare/government agencies.
> 
> ...


It's a TEN !
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Yes, we have the Republicans in Congress to thank for cut backs for our Veterans. The GOP has no problem sending our people off to fight but when they come back home they are on their own. Mrs. Biden and Mrs. Obama have done much to help returning Vet's get the care and the benefits they are entitled to. The GOP is good at waving the flag and that's about it. Thank you for posting and letting more people hear about what is going on.


Like what have they done besides travel with a camera to record they might visit a VA hospital, but make sure it gets on the 6 o'clock news!

More of your GOP bashing!


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

momeee said:


> Wonderful suggestions and information. Yes, women do find themselves in situations they were not expecting...job loss, illness, death, etc. and deserve help. But how many welfare recipients are unwed moms, with multiple kids from multiple sperm donors? The USA has been a too willing accomplice in perpetuating this problem. If there were more hardship, hunger, etc., many would attempt to be self- reliant.


More hardship, more hunger - they would be more self-reliant? Where in the world did you get this idea?


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

momeee said:


> I don't think any case is clear cut. But right now it is a free- for-all give away.
> Some sense needs to be applied.


And you know this how?


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Lina said:


> The illegals use the schools, hospitals, public transportation,
> clinics, etc


So?


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

alcameron said:


> It sounds as though you're talking about animals. "Irresponsible breeders?"
> I don't believe people think about the consequences of their actions, and I don't think the birth rate would decline if benefits were cut. I can hardly believe you're talking about human beings! You seem to think that the father will always be able to support the child(ren), and if he can't he gets castration? What century are you living in? Do you understand how you're coming across?
> These are draconian suggestions at best, and I hope you don't think our government would actually do this.


It sounds as if you do not expect the father of these children to be responsible for anything except making more babies. If these run away fathers were made to pay support to the babies they make you can rest assured the birth rate would diminish! As it is now, these fathers pay nothing but often live with the mothers to reap the benefits she gets from the child!


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> And they get tax write offs for their donations.


It's still a better use of $$$ than if the government took it, applied it to one of their useless invalid programs with outrageous administrative costs. $$$ is far better used in the charity area described than thru some government political, poorly run system lacking oversight and review of outcome. And the tax write off is far less than the money given to charity. And the control is local.

You get more BANG for your BUCKS.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> If they don't commit suicide first because of the hostile, rejecting, judgmental attitudes they face. Who is going to make the decision as to which ones are deserving and which ones need to be kicked into the gutter? What makes you think each and every case is that clear cut?


You sound as if you are one of the people who are being discussed! Is that why you are being so aggressive with your words. Just thinking!


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Solowey, I like the ladies on LOLL. You, not so much.


Solowey Don't let that ruin your beautiful day. In all things consider the source.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> So?


There goes your tax money as all of the quoted places need more money so our taxes are raised to pay for these illegals.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> It's my turn to be amazed. All of your suggestions for struggling singles have been in effect in my state for 25-30 years.
> 
> Support Specialists work full time to assist the clients and the courts in collecting child support. Of course, the welfare payment is reduced by the amount of the child support amount, it isn't "extra" income.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this information, much of which I wasn't familiar with. I am familiar with the job market here in VT. Very few welfare recipients are willing to take an entry-level, low paying job...they actually get more from welfare in terms of bennies, emergency cash, fuel assistance, medicaid, etc. There are many open jobs in VT. In the agricultural and hospitality areas we need to bring in legal non-citizens to do seasonal work, as those jobs are BENEATH so many Vermonters on the dole. And why give up a good thing, like endless welfare when you'd have to get out of bed and why show up on time for a job from which you'd probably get fired from, anyway?

In VT, regardless of what laws might be on the books, they aren't enforced. Widespread welfare fraud exists and when reported it isn't investigated, or if it is, it is given a cursory glance. Too few social workers etc. to make a difference. Many moms have boy friends or exhubby living with and contributing, but moms report they are alone... some live in rusted trailers while men work for jobs that pay under the table; EBT cards are accepted most places, and are spent for items that are not for the kids; or EBT cards are spent to the max on kids items - multi pkgs. of disposable diapers, then returned immediately for cash, when is then spent on cigarettes and liquor, which is then resold; the EBT card is used for a nominal purchase and the card holder requests the max of a 'cash-back'...
Would I like to see these thieves go hungry and get caught? you betcha! Does anyone in power care? nope, cause these thieves also vote. And, I hate what these slugs are doing to the really deserving and needy.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> More hardship, more hunger - they would be more self-reliant? Where in the world did you get this idea?


Well, dear get down out of that tree and "look" all around you--it is everywhere!


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Janeway said:


> It sounds as if you do not expect the father of these children to be responsible for anything except making more babies. If these run away fathers were made to pay support to the babies they make you can rest assured the birth rate would diminish! As it is now, these fathers pay nothing but often live with the mothers to reap the benefits she gets from the child!


Right, Janeway, and many men work under the table for the few hours necessary to buy their booze. Some are known drug dealers, who somehow escape getting caught.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Mondragon is a Spanish corp showing a downturn in assets, equity, consolidated results, deposits, sales, jobs, % members over co-operative workforce, % women in co-operative workforce, worker-members share capital from 2010 to 2011, the last posted stats. Not a great example of a successful business.
> 
> Evergreen Co-Operative is located in Cleveland, Ohio, and is a co-operative founded in 2008. It is getting HUD subsidies to heal Cleveland. Cooperative members are the Cleveland Clinic, the Cleveland Foundation, University Hospitals, Case Western Reserve University, and the municipal government. The goals are to hire workers making less than $18,500/ yr. I see no information on the website that show how the business is doing. Typical for a quasi-government organization. But, you can bet it is costing plenty to shore up their green agenda. Once again PeaceGoddess is focusing on who is getting helped and not the cost to Americans who are funding the effort. For all we know, this could be another Solyndra waiting to happen. It has no business model to make it grow without federal and local welfare.


Thank you for the information as Peacegoddess can only ask how do you know this info as they do not search anything, just reply.


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

momeee said:


> Right....and it is becoming generational.


It's a genetic disorder.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

GWPlver said:



> And you know this how?


Personal experience, both privately, professionally, and in the social arena in this state and in MA. It is rampant, blatant, inexcusable. I hate how it has hardened my heart to be so skeptical to sob stories. I am very selective regarding the charities to which I donate.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

momeee said:


> Right, Janeway, and many men work under the table for the few hours necessary to buy their booze. Some are known drug dealers, who somehow escape getting caught.


Yes, very true, sad but true!


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

RUKnitting said:


> It's a genetic disorder.


yes, inbred. If it is all one knows, sees, experiences, that is likely what one believes and comes to expect.


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## cheryl ridgway (Jan 31, 2013)

momeee said:


> I believe in not having children until one is prepared to be a responsible parent. How pregnancy is prevented should be a personal choice, as should abortion. I would not want my, or anyone's beliefs pushed on another. Yet, after one accidental pregnancy, the woman should be taught about options, and consequences of irresponsibility. She should not view her reproductive tract as the gold card....
> And, yes, I know a goodly number of single moms, single through a variety of reasons who are exemplary mothers.. Some have needed intermittent help; others were fully prepared to enter into motherhood with an education, good job, supportive family, etc. I applaud all of them.
> While I'd not like to ever think of sterilization, I do think there are some adults who have neglected and abused their kids so badly that they shouldn't have more, especially at the govt.expense. By irresponsible, I mean irresponsible to a large continuous degree, leaving the kids alone, unfed, unsupervised, in a dirty harmful environment, negligent, abandoning, harmful, over a repeated time, while being given support, help,education, etc. I am an advocate for kids FIRST, and have seen too many kids lives ruined by such parents- as I've written about numerous times.
> I would not cut off support to the children...I would not reward the mother with increases money and bennies; stricter limits would be placed on what she could buy with her EBT card, or food stamps, along with where those entitlements could be spent. No more visits to the masseur, nail or hair salon,movies, bars, ...Perhaps if the mom were a little hungry, or looked less than enticing, she'd take some incentive to better her situation and that of her kids.


Thank you for expanding on your earlier comments. I can see now that you would not want to cut off aid to the children who are innocent and should not be punished because of their parents' behavior. None of these issues have easy solutions. It is hard to find the balance between our individual freedoms and consequences for irresponsible behavior. On the whole, I think our society wants to protect the children. I would like to see a move back to more adoptions. There are way too many "children" having children. And it is so hard for potential loving parents to adopt through the system. My own step-daughter and husband adopted twin boys at birth -- mother was a meth addict but fortunately the boys were not born addicted. This was a private adoption so there could have been problems down the line; however, the mother disappeared (she already had 2 older kids who WERE born addicted), and no one knew who the father is.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Janeway said:


> There goes your tax money as all of the quoted places need more money so our taxes are raised to pay for these illegals.


Many of them pay taxes when they work, when they purchase items and when they pay rent. Many of them are contributing members of society. If we made it easier for them to become citizens, the US would be benefit.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

momeee said:


> Personal experience, both privately, professionally, and in the social arena in this state and in MA. It is rampant, blatant, inexcusable. I hate how it has hardened my heart to be so skeptical to sob stories. I am very selective regarding the charities to which I donate.


Don't worry about these women as they only know how to ask questions so they do not deserve your answer as now they will dispute what you write as this is how they do on every site!


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Janeway said:


> Well, dear get down out of that tree and "look" all around you--it is everywhere!


I am not in a tree and I'm out in society everyday - not sitting in my house and making general statements that don't bear out what you profess.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> Many of them pay taxes when they work, when they purchase items and when they pay rent. Many of them are contributing members of society. If we made it easier for them to become citizens, the US would be benefit.[/quote
> 
> Illegals do not pay taxes because they don't have a SS #. It is cash/carry so most send money back to Mexico while getting benefits here. They are loading themselves down with gold while here?


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> I am not in a tree and I'm out in society everyday - not sitting in my house and making general statements that don't bear out what you profess.


There you go slamming my disability again! I'm not house bound as you are indicating so just hope you "never" are disabled!

I will pray for your good health, but do not diss my health again or I will report you to KP's Administration to have you removed!


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## Kathie (Mar 29, 2011)

Janeway said:


> Well, dear get down out of that tree and "look" all around you--it is everywhere!


Wow Back to name calling. It doesn't look like anything helpful is being proposed. I'm out of here.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

kittykatzmom said:


> The more taxes the rich have to pay the more they have to charge for the products they manufacture or services they provide. Our government can't seem to figure this out.


The same applies when the minimum wage is increased. It's the consumer that gets stuck with paying the increase. Economics 101.


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## sandj (May 16, 2012)

Way to Go...Agree!


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Janeway said:


> There you go slamming my disability again! I'm not house bound as you are indicating so just hope you "never" are disabled!
> 
> I will pray for your good health, but do not diss my health again or I will report you to KP's Administration to have you removed!


Ummm...I'm not sure how you could possibly think that I am slamming you being disabled. My mother stays in her house and she is not disabled. Why are you so quick to assume someone is slamming you? And I do believe you were the one that seemed to want to "pick a fight" by calling me "dear" and telling me to come down from a tree.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Kathie said:


> Wow Back to name calling. It doesn't look like anything helpful is being proposed. I'm out of here.


Kathi - I don't blame you. This is exactly why some us are in L.O.L.L.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> There are people who work to bring justice to the here and now. I am curious if you made the effort to check out the two co operatives I mentioned earlier. Mondragon corporation and Evergreen Co Operative.


Why did you not post the info instead of asking if she made the "effort" to check out names you gave?


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> No you weren't. Why in that case (if you haven't read the thread) would you call us "sickenenly sweet?"
> You just can't leave your bitterness out of anything. Too bad for you. HO NICE!


This is exactly what happened to the progressive women's two threads and the other political threads last year. I don't have to read a new thread to determine that. I'm not bitter, just observing your behavior and can see it coming.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> Tell this to the people who lost their jobs when corporations went overseas for cheaper labor costs. There are people who have worked at such factories for the majority of their adult working life and now have no job just at the time of their retirement years.


The people that buy the cheaper items that are produced overseas are just as much to blame. There would be no market for the goods produced overseas if people only bought and demanded goods made the USA.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> It's my turn to be amazed. All of your suggestions for struggling singles have been in effect in my state for 25-30 years.
> 
> Support Specialists work full time to assist the clients and the courts in collecting child support. Of course, the welfare payment is reduced by the amount of the child support amount, it isn't "extra" income.
> 
> ...


You have no idea who I am and what I know. But, your claim of knowledge is limited. I know that courts often refuse to hear child support petitions for a long time, long enough to have a woman's electricity shut off (friend of my daughters, who divorced an ex-NBA player, and he fights paying anything for child support). My own daughter's petition for child support has been awaiting action for a year, and her ex has not paid the out-of-pocket expenses he is supposed to pay for medical services, school lunches, clothing, etc. By the way he has enough money to pay a high priced lawyer to harass her in court.

I never meant to suggest that parents were required to pay bills for an adult child. Support comes in lots of forms - free child are, a bag of groceries, fixing a broken drain, letting your child move home for awhile to recoup, etc. My parents did it for me, and I do it for my daughter. It's called being a parent.

Churches don't and can't fix all problems I agree, but they are good places to get emotional support. They are also a good place for networking to find a job.

I am currently retired and living on a fixed income and savings, but I was a teacher, a manager in a large corporation, and a director of a small business that provided tutoring for children. I was adopted by great parents and have always been grateful to my birth mother for giving me a lovely life, not the one my birth mother would have provided. I have a brother who is mentally challenged, but he served in Vietnam, worked in a major industrial plant until he retired two years ago, and he drives a bus now (He was smart enough to plan for retirement by getting his CDL in the reserves). He has three girls, two who lead their lives responsibly. One doesn't. She's used the system for years to subsidize her actual income, which comes mostly from tips. I know she gets housing subsidies, free healthcare, etc., and free babysitting from her mother, and no child support from a druggy ex-boyfriend. Unfortunately, her daughter, aged 17, is repeating this cycle of dependency. So, I have seen the real story for many years. Love my niece, but don't respect her and would never trust her with money.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> Wrong again. Mother and younger son are US citizens for certain. Do your research.


Seems to me you are the one that needs to do your research. The younger son's friends were arrested for their part in tampering with evidence, destroying evidence and lying to the FBI. 2 of these 3 were not citizens.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

NJG said:


> Your statement is true if they want to keep the same amount of money or more in their pocket. Your statement is true if they want to continue to pay themselves and their other top dogs huge bonuses. That statement is not true of some businesses that actually care about the world they live in and the people they share it with, although I think there are fewer and fewer in the latter group.


The whole purpose of starting a business is to make a profit, if it is a for profit business. The success of the business is a success of the business owner. Who is to say how much said business can make? Who is to say how much they pay themselves and their executives? Should there be a cut off point for profits?


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Please remember that it's our do-nothing Congress that makes the laws, and Congress is being mightily hampered by the GOP obstructionists.


The Senate is hampered by the just don't bring the bill up for discussion or a vote Democrats. At least the House is passing bills. That is considered doing something.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Solowey, I like the ladies on LOLL. You, not so much.


HOW NICE.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Cheeky Blighter wrote:
> You don't even have a state tax in TX so what are you crying about. Texas, totally forgettable. You don't have good schools either and it shows.
> 
> This is the evidence of the type of discussions you and your "club" have on your LOLL thread? Are we ever lucky not to be invited to join you. Once again you have proven my point that you are so sickeningly sweet to each other on LOLL that you have to invade other political threads and spew your poor behavior and put down anyone with a differing opinion. HOW NICE.
> ...


I noticed how you try to be civil. It only lasts a few pages at most, then it's back to the usual BS. Give it a rest.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

alcameron said:


> There are many wealthy people who are very charitable and there are probably many who are not. That they give or create charities does not let them off the hook for paying their fair share to support the workings of the government. I give to charity, and you probably do, too. We still pay our taxes, don't we? Check out what has happened to the tax rate for the wealthy over time. Why do people want to protect the rich? They have a ton of tax loopholes to take advantage of, and many are not salaried, but live off investments and capitals gains, taxed at a lower rate. I just don't get it.


The super rich do pay their fair share of taxes on all levels. They pay federal, state (if applicable), city, county, local taxes, etc. All of this supports the workings of the government. They pay school taxes even though they send their kids to private schools, They pay more on state sales taxes because they buy more and buy more expensive items. Yes, they use the loopholes available. Just because they use these loopholes, doesn't mean they don't pay their fair share.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

momeee said:


> I'd like to know who is paying for their education, living expenses, as they aren't citizens. And their visas had expired, i believe.
> The Boston Globe reported that the bombers' parents received over $100,000. in assistance.
> Is America too generous, too trusting? Who is keeping track of the foreign students?


The parents applied for political asylum and it was granted yet they returned to their country of origin a few times during their years here, before leaving for good. Who applies for asylum and then keeps returning to that country? Why wasn't a red flag placed on these people?


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

momeee said:


> It is my understanding that in addition to the money and supplies we've given to Syria, there is a possibility that we'll continue to support the Rebels, or it is the Brotherhood?, with even more supplies, and munitions. Hopefully no American soldiers will be sent


Obama is talking about supplying lethal aid to the Syrian rebels. I would like to know what lethal aid is and who the rebels actually are. This is the problem that is facing the administration, they don't really know who the rebels are. The administration was burned in Egypt with the Muslim Brotherhood getting into office, that I am sure they want to make sure the same will not happen in Syria.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> Obama is talking about supplying lethal aid to the Syrian rebels. I would like to know what lethal aid is and who the rebels actually are. This is the problem that is facing the administration, they don't really know who the rebels are. The administration was burned in Egypt with the Muslim Brotherhood getting into office, that I am sure they want to make sure the same will not happen in Syria.


It's weapons according to the news. They will just end up in the hands of the Brotherhood. Why not declare Assad is not the recognized leader and drone him?


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## sjrNC (Jul 30, 2012)

http://qz.com/74271/income-tax-rates-since-1913/

Interesting chart.

Capital gains are now taxed at 20% instead of 15%.

For many they have saved, planned for their retirement through investments. Some have founded companies and now are living off their hard work.
I don't begrudge them. 
As others have tried to state they do pay their share through other taxes.
How much would be fair? 
Do you tax their investments or just what they withdrawal each year? 
Do you look at their stock portfolio and tax them on their holdings, not just on dividends received? When they sell those stocks, they will pay capital gains tax, is that not enough or do you want them to be taxed on the whole sale and not on the profit they made?
What is wealthy? When does one become super rich?


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> They do--forty-seven states require Welfare recipients to work, and forty-eight suspend cash benefits after a given period of time, usually twelve months or less. California requires women with children to work a minimum of thirty-four hours per week, and as a result the state is virtually bankrupt--when Welfare recipients are forced to work someone has to care for their children, and in most cases that's more than these minimum-wage moms are capable of earning. Like it or not it's more cost-effective to let mothers with limited education and career opportunities stay home to care for their kids.


Even the mothers realize this. They might have limited education but they are not stupid. They know how to play the system.


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## Dot-I (Jun 25, 2011)

What is the question? Illegal is WRONG, Legal is RIGHT and there are no shades of gray. Why can't people act accordingly??
How can our government send 356 billion dollars to the rebels in Syria but can't pay our comptrollers to keep our planes in the air without inconveniencing our own people???
How can they cut Social Security and what they are now trying to call Social BENEFITS that we all paid into.
I'm so sick and tired of the hypocracy and lying of ALL our politians. Lets get the old true America and Americans back.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Janeway said:


> Why did you not post the info instead of asking if she made the "effort" to check out names you gave?


Janeway, If I posted the entirety of the two sites it would be enormous. I gave the names of the co operatives they can go to the sites or read about the businesses on other posts.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Dot-I said:


> What is the question? Illegal is WRONG, Legal is RIGHT and there are no shades of gray. Why can't people act accordingly??
> How can our government send 356 billion dollars to the rebels in Syria but can't pay our comptrollers to keep our planes in the air without inconveniencing our own people???
> How can they cut Social Security and what they are now trying to call Social BENEFITS that we all paid into.
> I'm so sick and tired of the hypocracy and lying of ALL our politians. Lets get the old true America and Americans back.


What is the "old true America" and who are the "true Americans"?


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

RUKnitting said:


> Solowey Don't let that ruin your beautiful day. In all things consider the source.


Thank you. I certainly do.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> The people that buy the cheaper items that are produced overseas are just as much to blame. There would be no market for the goods produced overseas if people only bought and demanded goods made the USA.


Which came first the chicken or the egg? Companies began going overseas to China because of the corporate unwillingness to abide by environmental and safety laws and to escape paying a living wage....brought to working folks by unions.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Janeway said:


> You sound as if you are one of the people who are being discussed! Is that why you are being so aggressive with your words. Just thinking!


I'M being aggressive with MY words? Are you kidding me? Try thinking about this: I worked for the Michigan Department of Social Services for 23 years. I think I'm more knowledgeable than those who spout ancient prejudices against the less fortunate without any facts, only innuendo, to back up what they say, as if this forum wasn't big enough to include people who know better from experience. When it gets too hot for you, you start throwing out more prejudice and uninformed thoughts as if they were facts, as if your accusations mean anything at all. How much and what kind of proof would you like? The laws aren't enough for you, or have you not researched them? You merely go off on anyone who doesn't agree with whatever you think and say with no real knowledge base to be thinking or saying from.


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## Dot-I (Jun 25, 2011)

Peascegoddess Old true America is when the settlers got here and when the constitution was written. True Americans are the ones who believe in the constitution and not trying to take our amendments away from us. True Americans are the Military living and lost who have given us this freedom to speak in American, not English as British not Russian nor Japanese but our own American with all its wonderful colloquialisms. And people with a true love of this wonderful country of ours.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for speaking the truth.



SAMkewel said:


> I'M being aggressive with MY words? Are you kidding me? Try thinking about this: I worked for the Michigan Department of Social Services for 23 years. I think I'm more knowledgeable than those who spout ancient prejudices against the less fortunate without any facts, only innuendo, to back up what they say, as if this forum wasn't big enough to include people who know better from experience. When it gets too hot for you, you start throwing out more prejudice and uninformed thoughts as if they were facts, as if your accusations mean anything at all. How much and what kind of proof would you like? The laws aren't enough for you, or have you not researched them? You merely go off on anyone who doesn't agree with whatever you think and say with no real knowledge base to be thinking or saying from.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Bull feathers.



Dot-I said:


> Peascegoddess Old true America is when the settlers got here and when the constitution was written. True Americans are the ones who believe in the constitution and not trying to take our amendments away from us. True Americans are the Military living and lost who have given us this freedom to speak in American, not English as British not Russian nor Japanese but our own American with all its wonderful colloquialisms. And people with a true love of this wonderful country of ours.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

momeee said:


> Knit crazy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> The people that buy the cheaper items that are produced overseas are just as much to blame. There would be no market for the goods produced overseas if people only bought and demanded goods made the USA.


It's very difficult to buy American these days, isn't it? I try, but at times I can't even find what I'm looking for. Some people can't afford to spend much and have to buy things made in China or Indonesia. If people made a decent wage, they could buy more American-made products and the demand would go up.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> The Senate is hampered by the just don't bring the bill up for discussion or a vote Democrats. At least the House is passing bills. That is considered doing something.


If there's no chance of the bills being passed in the Senate, what's the point? There has to be some kind of meeting of the minds to do something for the benefit of the country rather than for political gain.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Dot-I said:


> Peascegoddess Old true America is when the settlers got here and when the constitution was written. True Americans are the ones who believe in the constitution and not trying to take our amendments away from us. True Americans are the Military living and lost who have given us this freedom to speak in American, not English as British not Russian nor Japanese but our own American with all its wonderful colloquialisms. And people with a true love of this wonderful country of ours.


The settlers were immigrants from a variety of countries. This true America you speak about was stolen from Native Americans and then began to be "civilized" by immigrants. This country is populated by descendants of immigrants, whose first language in most cases was not English. If you and other "true Americans" are not 100% Native American then your forefathers and mothers were immigrants.

As for the constitution, it is not being taken away, but there are a number of people willing to give their rights away in the name of fear.

Military people have not given me my freedoms and I do not think the unlawful wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are to protect the constitution or my freedoms.

I love this country as much as any one else and I am proud that I live in a city where on any given day at any given time I can hear people speaking Spanish, French, Italian, Mandarin, Chinese, Russian, and yes Arabic. And many of the people speaking these diverse languages are AMERICANS!


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

momeee said:


> Thank you for this information, much of which I wasn't familiar with. I am familiar with the job market here in VT. Very few welfare recipients are willing to take an entry-level, low paying job...they actually get more from welfare in terms of bennies, emergency cash, fuel assistance, medicaid, etc. There are many open jobs in VT. In the agricultural and hospitality areas we need to bring in legal non-citizens to do seasonal work, as those jobs are BENEATH so many Vermonters on the dole. And why give up a good thing, like endless welfare when you'd have to get out of bed and why show up on time for a job from which you'd probably get fired from, anyway?
> 
> In VT, regardless of what laws might be on the books, they aren't enforced. Widespread welfare fraud exists and when reported it isn't investigated, or if it is, it is given a cursory glance. Too few social workers etc. to make a difference. Many moms have boy friends or exhubby living with and contributing, but moms report they are alone... some live in rusted trailers while men work for jobs that pay under the table; EBT cards are accepted most places, and are spent for items that are not for the kids; or EBT cards are spent to the max on kids items - multi pkgs. of disposable diapers, then returned immediately for cash, when is then spent on cigarettes and liquor, which is then resold; the EBT card is used for a nominal purchase and the card holder requests the max of a 'cash-back'...
> Would I like to see these thieves go hungry and get caught? you betcha! Does anyone in power care? nope, cause these thieves also vote. And, I hate what these slugs are doing to the really deserving and needy.


I'm sorry to hear that the laws aren't enforced in Vermont. How many of these cases have you reported? How does Vermont avoid losing federal funding if the requirements for that funding aren't being met? How would you suggest changing things for the better? How do you determine who the really deserving and needy are? How are you privy to all the facts in every case you see? What are you, personally, doing about all of this? Do you depend on others to clean it up? Expecting more than is humanly possible? How do you know who is on assistance and who isn't, since that information is confidential?

I'm not saying these things never happen, I'm saying that if you see that much of it and you think it should be stopped, you have a role to play. When I was a caseworker, I had 500 cases or more at all times. If there were only two people in each case, which happens rarely, that makes 1,000 people for one caseworker to be watching. During the time I was a caseworker, neither I nor most of the other workers had time to eat lunch or take a break, and we often worked half of the weekends as well with no overtime or even straight pay. The fraud cases that were successfully prosecuted were primarily reported by "friends," neighbors, and relatives. Or is an exception made for them? Having lived the reality of this, I have great difficulty believing a good deal of what you're saying, because that is what I saw in only a small number of cases, which were promptly closed.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Dot-I said:


> Peascegoddess Old true America is when the settlers got here and when the constitution was written. True Americans are the ones who believe in the constitution and not trying to take our amendments away from us. True Americans are the Military living and lost who have given us this freedom to speak in American, not English as British not Russian nor Japanese but our own American with all its wonderful colloquialisms. And people with a true love of this wonderful country of ours.


Alot of the settlers were immigrants - not sure if they were legal or illegal back then. Military consisted of immigrants also. There are immigrants that are working on gaining citizenship and they love the US also. Would they be Americans?


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> The settlers were immigrants from a variety of countries. This true America you speak about was stolen from Native Americans and then began to be "civilized" by immigrants. This country is populated by descendants of immigrants, whose first language in most cases was not English. If you and other "true Americans" are not 100% Native American then your forefathers and mothers were immigrants.
> 
> As for the constitution, it is not being taken away, but there are a number of people willing to give their rights away in the name of fear.
> 
> ...


We must be soul sisters - I was answering with the same issue. But you are more eloquent than me.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Janeway said:


> Don't worry about these women as they only know how to ask questions so they do not deserve your answer as now they will dispute what you write as this is how they do on every site!


I hope you aren't including me in your "they." I'm not on any other site; I wouldn't have time to live my life and be on any other site in addition to this one.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> The super rich do pay their fair share of taxes on all levels. They pay federal, state (if applicable), city, county, local taxes, etc. All of this supports the workings of the government. They pay school taxes even though they send their kids to private schools, They pay more on state sales taxes because they buy more and buy more expensive items. Yes, they use the loopholes available. Just because they use these loopholes, doesn't mean they don't pay their fair share.


We're back to what a fair share is. I'm not super rich and I pay the same taxes. I don't have children in the public schools because I'm retired. I pay sales tax on all taxable items on my state. Maybe it's time to look seriously at how much the super rich pay. What evidence can you show me that they pay their fair share? What evidence is there that they are entitled to tax loopholes? Why can't I have loopholes? Because I don't make enough money? I just don't understand this preoccupation with protecting the rich from paying higher taxes. Again, I say the ones who believe this must be the rich. I can't think of any other reason. Accusations are made against "welfare moms" scamming the system. Aren't tax loopholes there to scam the system, even though they're legal? Why can't these loopholes be examined and perhaps disallowed?


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

alcameron said:


> We're back to what a fair share is. I'm not super rich and I pay the same taxes. I don't have children in the public schools because I'm retired. I pay sales tax on all taxable items on my state. Maybe it's time to look seriously at how much the super rich pay. What evidence can you show me that they pay their fair share? What evidence is there that they are entitled to tax loopholes? Why can't I have loopholes? Because I don't make enough money? I just don't understand this preoccupation with protecting the rich from paying higher taxes. Again, I say the ones who believe this must be the rich. I can't think of any other reason. Accusations are made against "welfare moms" scamming the system. Aren't tax loopholes there to scam the system, even though they're legal? Why can't these loopholes be examined and perhaps disallowed?


And I'm sure those "welfare moms" are millionaires by now what with all the scamming they do.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> I'm waiting on the edge of my chair for the answer to this question. Some of the greatest minds have not been able to answer it. It seems easier for many to judge, condemn, and tear down what is rather than come up with positive, workable solutions.


Some posters here would disagree, but I think we need to have universal childcare....oh I hear the screams now. If we reduced the military budget drastically, we would have money for technical job training, childcare, innovation for environmentally sound utilities and transportation, and education. My list could go on and on. If we reduced our dependance on oil, we could reduce our military spending.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Some posters here would disagree, but I think we need to have universal childcare....oh I hear the screams now. If we reduced the military budget drastically, we would have money for technical job training, childcare, innovation for environmentally sound utilities and transportation, and education. My list could go on and on. If we reduced our dependance on oil, we could reduce our military spending.


And to this add universal healthcare.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> Which came first the chicken or the egg? Companies began going overseas to China because of the corporate unwillingness to abide by environmental and safety laws and to escape paying a living wage....brought to working folks by unions.


If the unions had not pressed businesses for unreasonable demands, the jobs might have stayed in America. We wouldn't have to worry so much about China's lack of environmental and safety laws affecting the products we buy. Unions served a purpose in the early 1900's closing unsafe factories and mines and forcing management to provide safe working places. However, as the wife of a GM retiree who worked in the plant and later in management, I
I heard lots of stories of inequities the union caused. Drug use and alcoholism was rampant and unsafe. Yet, management could not fire employees because of union rules. Workers met their quotas by Wednesday or Thursday and played cards the rest of the week. Then they signed up for overtime for Saturday at 1 and 1/2 pay rate. Union reps keyed up cars and threatened labor relations staff. Management just wouldn't stand up for what was right, so it was their fault too. Then, NAFTA was put in place by Bill Clinton. Labor asked at that time, "Who will be able to buy the cars?" But, earlier they could have been less greedy and not expected wages far above the prevalent wage in a non-union plant. The unions caused a lot of the move to Mexico and later China movement. They cut off their nose to spite their face.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

alcameron said:


> And to this add universal healthcare.


We are bankrupt. This country cannot support healthcare much less universal childcare. Didn't you hear today that Harry Reid agreed with Max Baucus that Obamacare is a train wreck. Reid said we just needed a lot more money to make sure the train wreck didn't occur. We have already mortgaged our children's future. Do you want to make that our grandchildren's future too? Actually what will happen is that SSI, Medicare and Medicare will need to be eliminated at that point, and a war will come to us that we can't afford to fight. Get your burkas ready. Your government won't be able to fight the Islamists off because you kept suggesting programs that bankrupted us.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Seems to me you are the one that needs to do your research. The younger son's friends were arrested for their part in tampering with evidence, destroying evidence and lying to the FBI. 2 of these 3 were not citizens.


We weren't talking about friends of the suspect, we were talking about family members. If you want to broaden the subject to include friends/classmates, that's fine, but please don't apply the discussion of family members to additional people. They are another subject, one that I have not commented on one way or the other, so I'm not involved in any discussion about them.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> If the unions had not pressed businesses for unreasonable demands, the jobs might have stayed in America. We wouldn't have to worry so much about China's lack of environmental and safety laws affecting the products we buy. Unions served a purpose in the early 1900's closing unsafe factories and mines and forcing management to provide safe working places. However, as the wife of a GM retiree who worked in the plant and later in management, I
> I heard lots of stories of inequities the union caused. Drug use and alcoholism was rampant and unsafe. Yet, management could not fire employees because of union rules. Workers met their quotas by Wednesday or Thursday and played cards the rest of the week. Then they signed up for overtime for Saturday at 1 and 1/2 pay rate. Union reps keyed up cars and threatened labor relations staff. Management just wouldn't stand up for what was right, so it was their fault too. Then, NAFTA was put in place by Bill Clinton. Labor asked at that time, "Who will be able to buy the cars?" But, earlier they could have been less greedy and not expected wages far above the prevalent wage in a non-union plant. The unions caused a lot of the move to Mexico and later China movement. They cut off their nose to spite their face.


I think NAFTA sucks. We agree on something.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> So they become citizens or get a green card and they file taxes. Then if a family of 5, 3 children under 17 and they file married filing joint with an income of about $20,000 the IRS will give them about $8000.
> 
> They are probably getting rent assistance, energy assistance, food stamps, child care, and Medicaid.
> 
> How is society benefiting?


I guess that's where I made my mistake. You are discussing probabilities and I thought we were discussing facts. Probabilities are too vague and open to interpretation for me to consider. I prefer reality, nothing but the facts, ma'am.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> The parents applied for political asylum and it was granted yet they returned to their country of origin a few times during their years here, before leaving for good. Who applies for asylum and then keeps returning to that country? Why wasn't a red flag placed on these people?


There WAS a red flag on both the mother and the older son, but it wasn't because they made trips back to their homeland. It was because the Russians sent a warning about them through diplomatic channels. I know nothing beyond that.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> We are bankrupt. This country cannot support healthcare much less universal childcare. Didn't you hear today that Harry Reid agreed with Max Baucus that Obamacare is a train wreck. Reid said we just needed a lot more money to make sure the train wreck didn't occur. We have already mortgaged our children's future. Do you want to make that our grandchildren's future too? Actually what will happen is that SSI, Medicare and Medicare will need to be eliminated at that point, and a war will come to us that we can't afford to fight. Get your burkas ready. Your government won't be able to fight the Islamists off because you kept suggesting programs that bankrupted us.


Two unjust wars--Iraq and Afghanistan---had a lot to do with where we are today.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> We are bankrupt. This country cannot support healthcare much less universal childcare. Didn't you hear today that Harry Reid agreed with Max Baucus that Obamacare is a train wreck. Reid said we just needed a lot more money to make sure the train wreck didn't occur. We have already mortgaged our children's future. Do you want to make that our grandchildren's future too? Actually what will happen is that SSI, Medicare and Medicare will need to be eliminated at that point, and a war will come to us that we can't afford to fight. Get your burkas ready. Your government won't be able to fight the Islamists off because you kept suggesting programs that bankrupted us.[/quoteI
> 
> I agree we are bankrupt.....morally bankrupt because of our imperialist foreign policies. We have created our enemies over the greedy need for oil and other natural resources. I am not afraid of Muslims. We have gone overseas time and again and destroyed people's cultures and polluted their lands and left environmental degradation that is now causing massive numbers of birth defects. We are bankrupt because the wo/men ( read barely out of adolescence) return home sick in body and soul because of what they saw and did in the "defense of freedom. I am afraid of people willing to give up their constitutional rights because of racial fear. I am afraid of young men here in this country who rape young women (Stubbenville, Ohio) We are bankrupt because military men can rape and sexually harass female military members with few (mostly never)
> consequences.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> If the unions had not pressed businesses for unreasonable demands, the jobs might have stayed in America. We wouldn't have to worry so much about China's lack of environmental and safety laws affecting the products we buy. Unions served a purpose in the early 1900's closing unsafe factories and mines and forcing management to provide safe working places. However, as the wife of a GM retiree who worked in the plant and later in management, I
> I heard lots of stories of inequities the union caused. Drug use and alcoholism was rampant and unsafe. Yet, management could not fire employees because of union rules. Workers met their quotas by Wednesday or Thursday and played cards the rest of the week. Then they signed up for overtime for Saturday at 1 and 1/2 pay rate. Union reps keyed up cars and threatened labor relations staff. Management just wouldn't stand up for what was right, so it was their fault too. Then, NAFTA was put in place by Bill Clinton. Labor asked at that time, "Who will be able to buy the cars?" But, earlier they could have been less greedy and not expected wages far above the prevalent wage in a non-union plant. The unions caused a lot of the move to Mexico and later China movement. They cut off their nose to spite their face.


What about greedy CEO's who take home obscene amounts?


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> Alot of the settlers were immigrants - not sure if they were legal or illegal back then. Military consisted of immigrants also. There are immigrants that are working on gaining citizenship and they love the US also. Would they be Americans?


The immigration laws in the United States have experienced uneven progress. During colonial times independent colonies created their immigration laws. The first attempt to naturalize foreigners was through the Naturalization Act of 1790. However many years later the Chinese Exclusion Act was passed to stop the immigration of Chinese people. The Emergency Quota Act of 1921 and the Immigration Act of 1924 put a quota on how many immigrants were permitted, based on nationality and previous influx years. The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 led to the creation of the Immigration and Naturalization Service.

The first immigrants, i.e., Jamestown, either bought passage on a ship or indentured themself to get here. Later, Americans imported others who could not afford passage. These were slaves, more indentured servants, and immigrants like the Irish to fight in the civil war. By the 1850's industrialists were importing workers from Eastern Europe to work in factories and mines, but those workers signed contracts to work for an employer rather than indenture. They got work, hope for a future, and freedom from tyrannical governments.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

alcameron said:


> What about greedy CEO's who take home obscene amounts?


Greed is greed. It isn't my job to control it. I don't blame a CEO taking a job offer which to my estimation is exorbitant. Obviously, the company thought they had to pay that to get the person to provide their services. I don't blame a union worker for taking a job at a plant that pays way more for workers than the standard going rate.

I do not like unions that force companies to pay those rates because they are in effect limiting the number of employees a company can hire. Companies set budgets for pay and benefits based on sales and profits. If the pay rates are exorbitant for a CEO, there will be fewer directors and managers hired to make the a available budget balance. It works the same way for plant employees. If you are forced to pay a certain class of workers more than the company's budget allows, they hire fewer workers in that class.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

alcameron said:


> We're back to what a fair share is. I'm not super rich and I pay the same taxes. I don't have children in the public schools because I'm retired. I pay sales tax on all taxable items on my state. Maybe it's time to look seriously at how much the super rich pay. What evidence can you show me that they pay their fair share? What evidence is there that they are entitled to tax loopholes? Why can't I have loopholes? Because I don't make enough money? I just don't understand this preoccupation with protecting the rich from paying higher taxes. Again, I say the ones who believe this must be the rich. I can't think of any other reason. Accusations are made against "welfare moms" scamming the system. Aren't tax loopholes there to scam the system, even though they're legal? Why can't these loopholes be examined and perhaps disallowed?


Who determines what fair is? The world isn't fair and never will be. The fair thing would be to take the debt we owe, divide it by the number of citizens and send each person a bill for their share. I don't know what each share would be, but in the last 6 mos. I think I read somewhere between 40 and 50 thousand dollars per person. Divide that by 5 yrs of tax payments and bill each of us.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> If the unions had not pressed businesses for unreasonable demands, the jobs might have stayed in America. We wouldn't have to worry so much about China's lack of environmental and safety laws affecting the products we buy. Unions served a purpose in the early 1900's closing unsafe factories and mines and forcing management to provide safe working places. However, as the wife of a GM retiree who worked in the plant and later in management, I
> I heard lots of stories of inequities the union caused. Drug use and alcoholism was rampant and unsafe. Yet, management could not fire employees because of union rules. Workers met their quotas by Wednesday or Thursday and played cards the rest of the week. Then they signed up for overtime for Saturday at 1 and 1/2 pay rate. Union reps keyed up cars and threatened labor relations staff. Management just wouldn't stand up for what was right, so it was their fault too. Then, NAFTA was put in place by Bill Clinton. Labor asked at that time, "Who will be able to buy the cars?" But, earlier they could have been less greedy and not expected wages far above the prevalent wage in a non-union plant. The unions caused a lot of the move to Mexico and later China movement. They cut off their nose to spite their face.


It was a two way street in the auto industry. Yes unions protected their own at times to the detriment of their own well being, but management was not forward thinking in continuing to produce the same old thing when in the 70's oil began to be an issue. Negotiation and compromise needs to come from all sides.

Unions are not bad just because they are unions and the same for management. I doubt that all companies and corporations would continue to maintain health and safety standards, environmental protections and good wages if unions were gone. We have seen what happens when companies go overseas and all such advantages to workers are removed from the equation. Bangladesh garment industry, the Niger Valley oil and gas pumping. Even when there are standards, corporations hide problems BP and gulf oil spill.


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## yover8 (Oct 21, 2011)

Lina said:


> Look at the fat man. He is fat bacause he took the food from the skinny man???


Hell no! He is fat because high carbs / high fat is cheaper than fruits and vegetables. A Big Mac cost less than a head of broccoli, and fills you up longer.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> Who determines what fair is? The world isn't fair and never will be. The fair thing would be to take the debt we owe, divide it by the number of citizens and send each person a bill for their share. I don't know what each share would be, but in the last 6 mos. I think I read somewhere between 40 and 50 thousand dollars per person. Divide that by 5 yrs of tax payments and bill each of us.


Who made that interesting suggestion. Are they talking adults? Would there be an analysis of how a person lives and what their impact is on the economy and the environment?

I think we should stop giving tax breaks for each additional child I would limit child tax deductions to two children per family. Children consume a great deal of resources and create a deal of environmental destruction. For example disposable diapers, (if mother doesn't nurse) the packaging for formula, packaging for all the the accouterments , packaging for toys etc. Now before everyone gets crazy and says I do not like babies, I adore babies and children.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> Some posters here would disagree, but I think we need to have universal childcare....oh I hear the screams now. If we reduced the military budget drastically, we would have money for technical job training, childcare, innovation for environmentally sound utilities and transportation, and education. My list could go on and on. If we reduced our dependance on oil, we could reduce our military spending.


If we become energy independent via the Canadian pipeline, we won't need to pay exorbitant prices for our energy needs. Of course we could a start walking or get a horse. Wind is ugly and limited in scope. Solar is also. It is so expensive that we can't afford it. Gas is doable and inexpensive to run, but expensive to convert for use. Ethanol is risky. It depends on crop production and possibly could wipe corn from our diets to use. Nuclear is scary. I don't want to live near a plant.

If we reduce our military budget, we will lack protection from attacks. Remember, Boston is only the first attack we will suffer in the future. I am all for getting out of the Middle East, sending the Muslim immigrants back, and cutting out all foreign aid to countries who don't like us.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> The immigration laws in the United States have experienced uneven progress. During colonial times independent colonies created their immigration laws. The first attempt to naturalize foreigners was through the Naturalization Act of 1790. However many years later the Chinese Exclusion Act was passed to stop the immigration of Chinese people. The Emergency Quota Act of 1921 and the Immigration Act of 1924 put a quota on how many immigrants were permitted, based on nationality and previous influx years. The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 led to the creation of the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
> 
> The first immigrants, i.e., Jamestown, either bought passage on a ship or indentured themself to get here. Later, Americans imported others who could not afford passage. These were slaves, more indentured servants, and immigrants like the Irish to fight in the civil war. By the 1850's industrialists were importing workers from Eastern Europe to work in factories and mines, but those workers signed contracts to work for an employer rather than indenture. They got work, hope for a future, and freedom from tyrannical governments.


Quite a lovely story of how we have treated people. Sounds like it is time to bring some humanity to the equation. Indentured and contracts to work for a certain company is maybe two degrees from slavery. Remember how these people lived and how we had child labor.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> If we become energy independent via the Canadian pipeline, we won't need to pay exorbitant prices for our energy needs. Of course we could a start walking or get a horse. Wind is ugly and limited in scope. Solar is also. It is so expensive that we can't afford it. Gas is doable and inexpensive to run, but expensive to convert for use. Ethanol is risky. It depends on crop production and possibly could wipe corn from our diets to use. Nuclear is scary. I don't want to live near a plant.
> 
> If we reduce our military budget, we will lack protection from attacks. Remember, Boston is only the first attack we will suffer in the future. I am all for getting out of the Middle East, sending the Muslim immigrants back, and cutting out all foreign aid to countries who don't like us.


What is worse unsightliness, or long term degradation of the environment? There are numerous homes in the S F and Bay area that have solar panels. I am not offended by aesthetics, in fact I see them as a modern (necessary) art, kind of how I see Dali paintings...not to everyone's taste, but art non the less.

You need to look at the military budget and see that we truly can reduce it without sacrificing protection. Now what you state about Muslim immigrants is just plain scary racism. List for me the countries we are giving aid to that do not like us. Perhaps Pakistan? We want a military presence there so we won't give that up. How about Turkey, oops miltiary again.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

alcameron said:


> Two unjust wars--Iraq and Afghanistan---had a lot to do with where we are today.


I don't think there is any place in the Middle East except Israel that is worth fighting for. Unfortunately we were attacked. We wanted Bin Laden, but couldn't get him in Acghanistan. Bush tried, but was smart enough to see that Afghanistan was a sink hole that had defeated the Russians. When he pushed the Taliban out, it improved the lives of the population, but it became clear we couldn't overcome the ignorance, tribalism, and corruption. So, Bush created a military zone there to contain the Taliban and fight the extremism in Pakistan, their neighbor. Obama made a big mistake deciding to make a surge there. What was the goal? There is no place in the world less functional as a government that I can think of, and it would take too much of our blood and treasure to build a new culture there.

Why we were in Iraq came down to universal assessments that Hussein had WMD. Hussein said he did, he had used it before, and foreign operatives said it was there. If he had and we didn't go in, we would have faced international criticism. It would have been another embarrassment on top of 9/11. So, we went looking for it. Iraq was also the safest country to attack in the Axis of Evil. We sent a message there that you can't defeat the HS. But Obama gave the gains away. We left without the agreements needed for the future. I am proud of the quality of our young soldiers today, but I never saw the surge in Afghanistan as smart. Iraq was probably not avoidable due to what we thought was there.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

yover8 said:


> Hell no! He is fat because high carbs / high fat is cheaper than fruits and vegetables. A Big Mac cost less than a head of broccoli, and fills you up longer.


He's fat due to poor food decisions. If he is worried about money, he isn't eating out.


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## Dot-I (Jun 25, 2011)

Peace goddess
I am a true American My heritage is Mescalero Apache Is that American enough for you!!!
Yes, Our military in WW1 and WW11, Korea and Viet Nam did protect this country so we could be American s with the freedoms we appreciate. Tell my husband, a Viet Nam Vet that his 21 years of service and three tours of Viet Nam didn't help protect this country. You will get more than you want to hear.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> I don't think there is any place in the Middle East except Israel that is worth fighting for. Unfortunately we were attacked. We wanted Bin Laden, but couldn't get him in Acghanistan. Bush tried, but was smart enough to see that Afghanistan was a sink hole that had defeated the Russians. When he pushed the Taliban out, it improved the lives of the population, but it became clear we couldn't overcome the ignorance, tribalism, and corruption. So, Bush created a military zone there to contain the Taliban and fight the extremism in Pakistan, their neighbor. Obama made a big mistake deciding to make a surge there. What was the goal? There is no place in the world less functional as a government that I can think of, and it would take too much of our blood and treasure to build a new culture there.
> 
> Why we were in Iraq came down to universal assessments that Hussein had WMD. Hussein said he did, he had used it before, and foreign operatives said it was there. If he had and we didn't go in, we would have faced international criticism. It would have been another embarrassment on top of 9/11. So, we went looking for it. Iraq was also the safest country to attack in the Axis of Evil. We sent a message there that you can't defeat the HS. But Obama gave the gains away. We left without the agreements needed for the future. I am proud of the quality of our young soldiers today, but I never saw the surge in Afghanistan as smart. Iraq was probably not avoidable due to what we thought was there.


We were "in" Afghanistan way before the aftermath of 9/11. Remember how we funded and armed the Taliban against the Russians....can you say U S imperialist policing? The U S brings criticism upon itself all the time. We are the big bad U S maybe we need to develop a thicker skin.

You are proud that women are raped and harassed by their fellow soliders? What about the documented harassment of non white soldiers?

Israel is building a wall that is the equal of the Berlin Wall and has created a virtual concentration camp of the West Bank and Palestinian territories. And we support that. One bully imperialist nation supporting the other. Don't call me anti Jewish, I am Jewish and disgusted by Israels actions. By the way there is a large pro Peace with Palestine movement in Israel.

If we had wanted to take out Bin Laden we could have sent in the SEALS like we have in the past and recently, but we were not interested in the supposed WMDs or in helping the population attain a better life. Read some of literature of RAWA Revolutionary Association of Afghan Women. We wanted a cheap route for oil and a military presence to support Israel.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> If we become energy independent via the Canadian pipeline, we won't need to pay exorbitant prices for our energy needs. Of course we could a start walking or get a horse. Wind is ugly and limited in scope. Solar is also. It is so expensive that we can't afford it. Gas is doable and inexpensive to run, but expensive to convert for use. Ethanol is risky. It depends on crop production and possibly could wipe corn from our diets to use. Nuclear is scary. I don't want to live near a plant.
> 
> If we reduce our military budget, we will lack protection from attacks. Remember, Boston is only the first attack we will suffer in the future. I am all for getting out of the Middle East, sending the Muslim immigrants back, and cutting out all foreign aid to countries who don't like us.


Who said the Canadian pipeline would make us energy independent? I don't think so! That's not going to be our oil.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Dot-I said:


> Peace goddess
> I am a true American My heritage is Mescalero Apache Is that American enough for you!!!
> Yes, Our military in WW1 and WW11, Korea and Viet Nam did protect this country so we could be American s with the freedoms we appreciate. Tell my husband, a Viet Nam Vet that his 21 years of service and three tours of Viet Nam didn't help protect this country. You will get more than you want to hear.


What % of Apache are you? No mix of anything else? As a descendent of immigrants I consider myself American also, but I am not blind to the rhetoric that is spewed out as patriotism. I grew up on military bases and 2 of my brothers were in Vietnam. One came back and immediately joined Vets Against the War. My mother was a WAC during WWII and my father was in the Air Force at that time. I have had "protecting our freedoms" ad nauseam. Vietnam was a civil war. We used the old saw of commies and thousands of people died and the South Vietnamese still reap the benefits of defoliants. Also Vietnam vets. 
WWI was not a threat to our freedoms, neither was WWII (if had wanted to help Jews, Roma, mentally challenged people, and homosexuals we would have been assisting aid agencies that told us about the atrocities in the 30's. Korea well we were so afraid of commies again that we could not keep our noses out of other countries business.


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## yover8 (Oct 21, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> He's fat due to poor food decisions. If he is worried about money, he isn't eating out.


Krogers Mac and cheese is even cheaper. So are Ramen noodles.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> I don't think there is any place in the Middle East except Israel that is worth fighting for. Unfortunately we were attacked. We wanted Bin Laden, but couldn't get him in Acghanistan. Bush tried, but was smart enough to see that Afghanistan was a sink hole that had defeated the Russians. When he pushed the Taliban out, it improved the lives of the population, but it became clear we couldn't overcome the ignorance, tribalism, and corruption. So, Bush created a military zone there to contain the Taliban and fight the extremism in Pakistan, their neighbor. Obama made a big mistake deciding to make a surge there. What was the goal? There is no place in the world less functional as a government that I can think of, and it would take too much of our blood and treasure to build a new culture there.
> 
> Why we were in Iraq came down to universal assessments that Hussein had WMD. Hussein said he did, he had used it before, and foreign operatives said it was there. If he had and we didn't go in, we would have faced international criticism. It would have been another embarrassment on top of 9/11. So, we went looking for it. Iraq was also the safest country to attack in the Axis of Evil. We sent a message there that you can't defeat the HS. But Obama gave the gains away. We left without the agreements needed for the future. I am proud of the quality of our young soldiers today, but I never saw the surge in Afghanistan as smart. Iraq was probably not avoidable due to what we thought was there.


The war in Iraq was started because of the lies of Cheney and Bush. The inspectors said there were no WMD's there, but Cheney wanted a war, so the American people were lied to.


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## yover8 (Oct 21, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> We were "in" Afghanistan way before the aftermath of 9/11. Remember how we funded and armed the Taliban against the Russians....can you say U S imperialist policing? The U S brings criticism upon itself all the time. We are the big bad U S maybe we need to develop a thicker skin.
> 
> You are proud that women are raped and harassed by their fellow soliders? What about the documented harassment of non white soldiers?
> 
> ...


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## yover8 (Oct 21, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> We were "in" Afghanistan way before the aftermath of 9/11. Remember how we funded and armed the Taliban against the Russians....can you say U S imperialist policing? The U S brings criticism upon itself all the time. We are the big bad U S maybe we need to develop a thicker skin.
> 
> You are proud that women are raped and harassed by their fellow soliders? What about the documented harassment of non white soldiers?
> 
> ...


Ever been to the West Bank or Gaza Strip? This is what is looks like - 3 weeks after the latest bombings. There is no wall - except figuratively. Israelis are not allowed into the Gaza Strip except on designated roads. If you have Israeli heritage or a Jewish-like surname you cannot visit Bethlehem on your Israeli pilgrimage. Nazareth? A dirty city filled with anti-Christian slogans


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

yover8 said:


> Ever been to the West Bank or Gaza Strip? This is what is looks like - 3 weeks after the latest bombings. There is no wall - except figuratively. Israelis are not allowed into the Gaza Strip except on designated roads. If you have Israeli heritage or a Jewish-like surname you cannot visit Bethlehem on your Israeli pilgrimage. Nazareth? A dirty city filled with anti-Christian slogans


The Israeli West Bank barrier is a separation barrier (see "Names of the barrier") under construction by the State of Israel along and within the West Bank. Upon completion, the barrier's total length will be approximately 700 kilometres (430 mi).[1] 90% of the length of this barrier is a fence with vehicle-barrier trenches surrounded by an on-average 60 metres (200 ft) wide exclusion area, and 10% of the barrier is an 8 metres (26 ft)-tall concrete wall.[2] The barrier is built mainly in the West Bank and partly along the 1949 Armistice line, or "Green Line" between Israel and Palestinian West Bank. According to the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem, 8.5% of the West Bank area is on the Israeli side of the barrier, and 3.4% is on the other side but "partly or completely surrounded"


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> Knit crazy said:
> 
> 
> > We are bankrupt. This country cannot support healthcare much less universal childcare. Didn't you hear today that Harry Reid agreed with Max Baucus that Obamacare is a train wreck. Reid said we just needed a lot more money to make sure the train wreck didn't occur. We have already mortgaged our children's future. Do you want to make that our grandchildren's future too? Actually what will happen is that SSI, Medicare and Medicare will need to be eliminated at that point, and a war will come to us that we can't afford to fight. Get your burkas ready. Your government won't be able to fight the Islamists off because you kept suggesting programs that bankrupted us.[/quoteI
> ...


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## yover8 (Oct 21, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> The Israeli West Bank barrier is a separation barrier (see "Names of the barrier") under construction by the State of Israel along and within the West Bank. Upon completion, the barrier's total length will be approximately 700 kilometres (430 mi).[1] 90% of the length of this barrier is a fence with vehicle-barrier trenches surrounded by an on-average 60 metres (200 ft) wide exclusion area, and 10% of the barrier is an 8 metres (26 ft)-tall concrete wall.[2] The barrier is built mainly in the West Bank and partly along the 1949 Armistice line, or "Green Line" between Israel and Palestinian West Bank. According to the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem, 8.5% of the West Bank area is on the Israeli side of the barrier, and 3.4% is on the other side but "partly or completely surrounded"


Right - the walls are to prevent the suicide bombers from 
crossing that political border. It has saved countless lives.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> Quite a lovely story of how we have treated people. Sounds like it is time to bring some humanity to the equation. Indentured and contracts to work for a certain company is maybe two degrees from slavery. Remember how these people lived and how we had child labor.


I remember. My relatives lived it for the chance to succeed in America. Child labor? All children then had to work.

My father's ancestors were from Germany and were there in Jamestown as indentured servants in 1655. They became large landowners due to land grants, but they suffered to see that success. My mother's ancestors were English and Dutch. Her great-great grandfather sold everything in Yorkshire for passage to America shortly after the American revolution, but both he and his wife worked as servants their entire lives as well as farming. Their children got educated and had better lives. My mother's Dutch side came in the mid-1600's as merchants in New Amsterdam (New York).

My husband's grandfather was a baker in Poland. He came to America and had to work in the Pennsylvania coal mines 10 years before he found a job in New York as a baker. His other grandfather was half Native American/half Scots. He was a glass cutter, working in hot glass plants until he was well over 60, lifting large pieces of cut glass. He was not allowed to vote until he was nearly 30 because Indians were not allowed to vote. None of these ancestors wanted to go back to where they came from. They would do anything they had to do to stay in America.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

yover8 said:


> Krogers Mac and cheese is even cheaper. So are Ramen noodles.


True


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> We are morally bankrupt because we murder innocent lives in the womb, because we are driving God from the national identity, because we refuse to live responsibly in our finances and goals. We don't conquer other countries, we save other countries. Americans are generous with our resources of men, women and money.
> 
> We haven't created enemies over oil or environmental issues. The culture in the Mideast has not changed much since Mohammed. That is an excuse to hide the real nature of the Muslim hate. The Muslims hate us because we are not Muslim and not living as fundamentalist Muslims.
> 
> ...


How are we unique in the world? Other countries have constitutional rights similar to and /or equal to ours. We still have the death penalty and exercise it regularly on people who after the execution have been found innocent.

There are extremists of every religion, including Muslims, Christians, and Jews. Remember the crusades, the Inquisition, the Jewish ghettos in Europe? To name a few.

Let me re phrase your words. You have not read enough history, and have listened to too many extremist conservative, both Christian and political.

I know many Muslim men and women from the Middle East they are warm, kind, loving people who respect me and my religion. We share meals and participate in social events together. I have great affection for them and their children. I do not fear Muslims. I do fear extremists of any religion...and Mulsims have their share just as Christians do.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> I remember. My relatives lived it for the chance to succeed in America. Child labor? All children then had to work.
> 
> My father's ancestors were from Germany and were there in Jamestown as indentured servants in 1655. They became large landowners due to land grants, but they suffered to see that success. My mother's ancestors were English and Dutch. Her great-great grandfather sold everything in Yorkshire for passage to America shortly after the American revolution, but both he and his wife worked as servants their entire lives as well as farming. Their children got educated and had better lives. My mother's Dutch side came in the mid-1600's as merchants in New Amsterdam (New York).
> 
> My husband's grandfather was a baker in Poland. He came to America and had to work in the Pennsylvania coal mines 10 years before he found a job in New York as a baker. His other grandfather was half Native American/half Scots. He was a glass cutter, working in hot glass plants until he was well over 60, lifting large pieces of cut glass. He was not allowed to vote until he was nearly 30 because Indians were not allowed to vote. None of these ancestors wanted to go back to where they came from. They would do anything they had to do to stay in America.


So, because your ancestors and mine suffered, we should make immigrants in the 21st century suffer a similar type of hard life? That is real progress for the times.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> So, because your ancestors and mine suffered, we should make immigrants in the 21st century suffer a similar type of hard life? That is real progress for the times.


I never said immigrants should suffer. If they are here legally like mine were, Welcome.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> How are we unique in the world? Other countries have constitutional rights similar to and /or equal to ours. We still have the death penalty and exercise it regularly on people who after the execution have been found innocent.
> 
> There are extremists of every religion, including Muslims, Christians, and Jews. Remember the crusades, the Inquisition, the Jewish ghettos in Europe? To name a few.
> 
> ...


If you don't value the uniqueness and specialness of being an American, find a better place and move there


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> I never said immigrants should suffer. If they are here legally like mine were, Welcome.


What made it legal ????? A piece of paper. What makes them illegal the lack of a piece of paper.

To return for a moment to your remark about history. The majority of history is written by the victors. The history I refer to and am part of is the history of the people. Have you read Howard Zinn? i have read traditional history for years and see the lies for what they are.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Janeway said:


> GWPlver said:
> 
> 
> > Many of them pay taxes when they work, when they purchase items and when they pay rent. Many of them are contributing members of society. If we made it easier for them to become citizens, the US would be benefit.[/quote
> ...


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Dot-I said:


> Peascegoddess Old true America is when the settlers got here and when the constitution was written. True Americans are the ones who believe in the constitution and not trying to take our amendments away from us. True Americans are the Military living and lost who have given us this freedom to speak in American, not English as British not Russian nor Japanese but our own American with all its wonderful colloquialisms. And people with a true love of this wonderful country of ours.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

momeee said:


> ...and the legal citizens, unemployed, on welfare or not, sometimes work and are paid off the books, thus, they pay no taxes, and continue to reap whatever bennies the generosity of our govt. will allow. Many get free housing, or rent, assistance, fuel assistance, free or reduced utilities, free furniture, appliances...and more. There is no end to what our Socialist state will offer. Ive been told that some citizens have more than one SS # so they can collect more than one welfare check. Meanwhile the farmers are struggling, or losing their farms and we have to import workers to do entry level jobs.


"Sometimes", "many", and "I've been told" are all indications that a person hasn't bothered to do his or her own research. Why not get the hard facts to back up what you're saying if you want people to take it seriously?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> If you don't value the uniqueness and specialness of being an American, find a better place and move there


In other words, Love it or leave it. Wasn't that one of Archie Bunker's sayings?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Our interest in the Middle East has always centered around OIL. We gave no help to the Jews when they were being exterminated by the Nazi's during WWII. (I know this is a simplification and an exaggeration. Not every single American is anti-semantic, but it is pervasive in the culture.)



Knit crazy said:


> I don't think there is any place in the Middle East except Israel that is worth fighting for. Unfortunately we were attacked. We wanted Bin Laden, but couldn't get him in Acghanistan. Bush tried, but was smart enough to see that Afghanistan was a sink hole that had defeated the Russians. When he pushed the Taliban out, it improved the lives of the population, but it became clear we couldn't overcome the ignorance, tribalism, and corruption. So, Bush created a military zone there to contain the Taliban and fight the extremism in Pakistan, their neighbor. Obama made a big mistake deciding to make a surge there. What was the goal? There is no place in the world less functional as a government that I can think of, and it would take too much of our blood and treasure to build a new culture there.
> 
> Why we were in Iraq came down to universal assessments that Hussein had WMD. Hussein said he did, he had used it before, and foreign operatives said it was there. If he had and we didn't go in, we would have faced international criticism. It would have been another embarrassment on top of 9/11. So, we went looking for it. Iraq was also the safest country to attack in the Axis of Evil. We sent a message there that you can't defeat the HS. But Obama gave the gains away. We left without the agreements needed for the future. I am proud of the quality of our young soldiers today, but I never saw the surge in Afghanistan as smart. Iraq was probably not avoidable due to what we thought was there.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Your husband is a very forgiving man. America has much to atone for to the Native American peoples.



Dot-I said:


> Peace goddess
> I am a true American My heritage is Mescalero Apache Is that American enough for you!!!
> Yes, Our military in WW1 and WW11, Korea and Viet Nam did protect this country so we could be American s with the freedoms we appreciate. Tell my husband, a Viet Nam Vet that his 21 years of service and three tours of Viet Nam didn't help protect this country. You will get more than you want to hear.


----------



## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> We are bankrupt. This country cannot support healthcare much less universal childcare. Didn't you hear today that Harry Reid agreed with Max Baucus that Obamacare is a train wreck. Reid said we just needed a lot more money to make sure the train wreck didn't occur. We have already mortgaged our children's future. Do you want to make that our grandchildren's future too? Actually what will happen is that SSI, Medicare and Medicare will need to be eliminated at that point, and a war will come to us that we can't afford to fight. Get your burkas ready. Your government won't be able to fight the Islamists off because you kept suggesting programs that bankrupted us.


Frightening as your predictions sound, I thoroughly agree with your past posts. Some won't see the forest for the trees; others adore this administration and see no wrong bring perpetrated on our country. We'll be bankrupt, disarmed, with no military power. We certainly don't have the foreign respect or loyalty we once deserved. I worry for the generations which will follow.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> If you don't value the uniqueness and specialness of being an American, find a better place and move there


That is not an answer. It is emotional knee jerk "I am a patriot and you aren't". What differentiates us from other countries that have constitutional liberties equal to ours?

You continually revert to 1950's McCarthy speak.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

momeee said:


> I believe in not having children until one is prepared to be a responsible parent. How pregnancy is prevented should be a personal choice, as should abortion. I would not want my, or anyone's beliefs pushed on another. Yet, after one accidental pregnancy, the woman should be taught about options, and consequences of irresponsibility. She should not view her reproductive tract as the gold card....
> And, yes, I know a goodly number of single moms, single through a variety of reasons who are exemplary mothers.. Some have needed intermittent help; others were fully prepared to enter into motherhood with an education, good job, supportive family, etc. I applaud all of them.
> 
> While I'd not like to ever think of sterilization, I do think there are some adults who have neglected and abused their kids so badly that they shouldn't have more, especially at the govt.expense. By irresponsible, I mean irresponsible to a large continuous degree, leaving the kids alone, unfed, unsupervised, in a dirty harmful environment, negligent, abandoning, harmful, over a repeated time, while being given support, help,education, etc. I am an advocate for kids FIRST, and have seen too many kids lives ruined by such parents- as I've written about numerous times.
> I would not cut off support to the children...I would not reward the mother with increases money and bennies; stricter limits would be placed on what she could buy with her EBT card, or food stamps, along with where those entitlements could be spent. No more visits to the masseur, nail or hair salon,movies, bars, ...Perhaps if the mom were a little hungry, or looked less than enticing, she'd take some incentive to better her situation and that of her kids.


Well, thank God you are not running the country. Stricter limits on her EBT card that can only purchase food? So starving her kids is the answer? Food stamps do not cover massages, movies, hair cuts, etc.
Madeliene Albright said "There is a place in hell for women who don't help other women" I agree with her.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> If we become energy independent via the Canadian pipeline, we won't need to pay exorbitant prices for our energy needs. Of course we could a start walking or get a horse. Wind is ugly and limited in scope. Solar is also. It is so expensive that we can't afford it. Gas is doable and inexpensive to run, but expensive to convert for use. Ethanol is risky. It depends on crop production and possibly could wipe corn from our diets to use. Nuclear is scary. I don't want to live near a plant.
> 
> If we reduce our military budget, we will lack protection from attacks. Remember, Boston is only the first attack we will suffer in the future. I am all for getting out of the Middle East, sending the Muslim immigrants back, and cutting out all foreign aid to countries who don't like us.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:  :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> If we become energy independent via the Canadian pipeline, we won't need to pay exorbitant prices for our energy needs. Of course we could a start walking or get a horse. Wind is ugly and limited in scope. Solar is also. It is so expensive that we can't afford it. Gas is doable and inexpensive to run, but expensive to convert for use. Ethanol is risky. It depends on crop production and possibly could wipe corn from our diets to use. Nuclear is scary. I don't want to live near a plant.
> 
> If we reduce our military budget, we will lack protection from attacks. Remember, Boston is only the first attack we will suffer in the future. I am all for getting out of the Middle East, sending the Muslim immigrants back, and cutting out all foreign aid to countries who don't like us.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:  :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Don't forget Cheney and his Haliburton buddies. And oil, oil, and more oil.



alcameron said:


> The war in Iraq was started because of the lies of Cheney and Bush. The inspectors said there were no WMD's there, but Cheney wanted a war, so the American people were lied to.


----------



## indices (Oct 7, 2011)

Can we get back to our knitting now please?

Indices


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You betcha! But Carroll O'Connor was being satiric. Not these guys.



susanmos2000 said:


> In other words, Love it or leave it. Wasn't that one of Archie Bunker's sayings?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

"One man's patriot is another man's terrorist." Gerald Seymour, 'Harry's Game.'



peacegoddess said:


> That is not an answer. It is emotional knee jerk "I am a patriot and you aren't". What differentiates us from other countries that have constitutional liberties equal to ours?
> 
> You continually revert to 1950's McCarthy speak.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Dot-I said:


> Peace goddess
> I am a true American My heritage is Mescalero Apache Is that American enough for you!!!
> Yes, Our military in WW1 and WW11, Korea and Viet Nam did protect this country so we could be American s with the freedoms we appreciate. Tell my husband, a Viet Nam Vet that his 21 years of service and three tours of Viet Nam didn't help protect this country. You will get more than you want to hear.


Offer your husband my thanks for his heroic service. Our country owes our veterans and soldiers a debt that can never be repaid.... And I fear they'll certainly not get it from this administration.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Keep on going, Yarnie. You are getting smaller and smaller by the minute.


So are you ConnanK, LillyK, who changed your name every other line then were kicked off KP, but here you are again under another name spewing your vile words!


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> If this is not reality what is it?
> 
> Any citizen or green card holder will get the same thing. Since they are only taking low income jobs we will be paying extra for them to be here.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this succinct response.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

momeee said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


I'd say the true Americans are the Native Americans from whom our ancestors took this country. The rest of us are illegal immigrants since we had no legal right to anything here. Think about it, it's the same as what we're trying to apply to today's so called illegal immigrants


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> No it's not, since when my ancestors came here they worked and paid their own way. They did not expect any handouts from the government or anyone else.


Every immigrant I know and let me tell you in my volunteer work I meet many immigrants, want to and do work hard. However just because your and my immigrant ancestors lived in squalid one room walk ups with the toilet facilities out side or only one to a floor does not justify that immigrants live that way now in 2013. Do we know and understand the word progress?


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> What is the "old true America" and who are the "true Americans"?


The American Indians who were born in America with no other blood line!

Namely me!


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> I hope you aren't including me in your "they." I'm not on any other site; I wouldn't have time to live my life and be on any other site in addition to this one.


Don't know you yet so no, at this time you are not "they" people. Sorry if you thought it meant you! Time will tell!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> I don't think there is any place in the Middle East except Israel that is worth fighting for. Unfortunately we were attacked. We wanted Bin Laden, but couldn't get him in Acghanistan. Bush tried, but was smart enough to see that Afghanistan was a sink hole that had defeated the Russians. When he pushed the Taliban out, it improved the lives of the population, but it became clear we couldn't overcome the ignorance, tribalism, and corruption. So, Bush created a military zone there to contain the Taliban and fight the extremism in Pakistan, their neighbor. Obama made a big mistake deciding to make a surge there. What was the goal? There is no place in the world less functional as a government that I can think of, and it would take too much of our blood and treasure to build a new culture there.
> 
> Why we were in Iraq came down to universal assessments that Hussein had WMD. Hussein said he did, he had used it before, and foreign operatives said it was there. If he had and we didn't go in, we would have faced international criticism. It would have been another embarrassment on top of 9/11. So, we went looking for it. Iraq was also the safest country to attack in the Axis of Evil. We sent a message there that you can't defeat the HS. But Obama gave the gains away. We left without the agreements needed for the future. I am proud of the quality of our young soldiers today, but I never saw the surge in Afghanistan as smart. Iraq was probably not avoidable due to what we thought was there.


Bush did not try to find Bin Laden. Youtube Bush on finding Bin Laden and you will hear the words right from his mouth that he didn't care about finding Bin Laden.
As for the WMD, the United Nations team were in Iraq and found none. The Bush admin had them removed from Iraq, and Bush attacked, knowing that there were none. He lied to Congress and to the American people about the Iraq war. The Axis of Evil is just another Bushism
The Taliban is still alive ,and operating in Afghanistan to this day.
Both wars were a folly at a huge cost to this country.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> If we become energy independent via the Canadian pipeline, we won't need to pay exorbitant prices for our energy needs. Of course we could a start walking or get a horse. Wind is ugly and limited in scope. Solar is also. It is so expensive that we can't afford it. Gas is doable and inexpensive to run, but expensive to convert for use. Ethanol is risky. It depends on crop production and possibly could wipe corn from our diets to use. Nuclear is scary. I don't want to live near a plant.
> 
> If we reduce our military budget, we will lack protection from attacks. Remember, Boston is only the first attack we will suffer in the future. I am all for getting out of the Middle East, sending the Muslim immigrants back, and cutting out all foreign aid to countries who don't like us.


We wouldn't become energy independent on the oil from Canada. It goes on the open market.
Wind is ugly? It's free! I have studied the wind turbine energy and out side of building the turbines, which would create thousands of jobs, the cost is much less than oil. Solar may be ugly, but it works.

We could save billions if we cut defense. There are weapons systems being built that the Pentagon neither wants or needs.

We can't send any immigrants back that are now citizens, or waiting to become one. Muslim or not.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> So what is wrong with toilet facilities outside? That is how I grew up. We had a very modern house for the area we lived in. We had running water. My Dad pumped water into a 50 gallon tank in the attic and it ran by gravity. It was cold but it was running. We had an indoor potty. it was a 5 gallon pail my Dad carried outside when needed. It was better than the outside one at night or in the winter.
> 
> It was far from squalid. It was a 5 bedroom, 3 floor farmhouse. built by my grandparents.


Joey, I think she meant the East and West Coast immigrants. In NewYork, tenement houses were just as peacegoddess described.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Janeway said:


> So are you ConnanK, LillyK, who changed your name every other line then were kicked off KP, but here you are again under another name spewing your vile words!


Janie, this the 13th time I will tell you that I was never lillyK, Conon or Polly. I have changed my user name once in 2 years.
I don't know what point you are trying to make by lying about this. But if you don't stop, admin will be hearing from me about you constantly harrassing me. Knock it off.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

momeee said:


> ...and the legal citizens, unemployed, on welfare or not, sometimes work and are paid off the books, thus, they pay no taxes, and continue to reap whatever bennies the generosity of our govt. will allow. Many get free housing, or rent, assistance, fuel assistance, free or reduced utilities, free furniture, appliances...and more. There is no end to what our Socialist state will offer. Ive been told that some citizens have more than one SS # so they can collect more than one welfare check. Meanwhile the farmers are struggling, or losing their farms and we have to import workers to do entry level jobs.


Not all of them take pay under the table. Some illegals are actually paying into Social Security which they will never be able to collect because they are not yet citizens. So in some ways they do contribute.
Stephen Goss, chief actuary of the Social Security Administration estimates that 3.1 million illegal workers pay into Social Security each year. In 2010, undocumented workers and their employers paid $15 billion to Social Security with no intention of ever collecting benefits -- that year illegal workers only received $1 billion back.

How do working illegal immigrants pay in to and collect Social Security? Some are issued Social Security numbers with their temporary or student visas, others forge documents and were issued numbers by Social Security before they tightened their screening process in 2001, some steal numbers, and others simply make them up.

When workers pay Social Security under numbers that dont match their names the administration sorts these into their suspense file. No one gets credit towards benefits for this money but the money does still go to the Social Security trust fund.

Related: Immigration Is an Economic Issue: Actress and Obama Campaign Co-Chair Eva Longoria

Over the course of many years, Goss estimates that a total of $150 billion in undocumented workers' money has flowed into the Social Security trust fund. Thats about 8% of the total $1.7 trillion Social Security has in reserve.

Source:Yahoo Finance


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)




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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Janeway said:


> Don't worry about these women as they only know how to ask questions so they do not deserve your answer as now they will dispute what you write as this is how they do on every site!


It's called debating.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> No it doesn't - why would you say that? It just says to please post positively.


Once again, there is no "mission statement". They just don't like the fact that we all get along and have fun in there.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> So what is wrong with toilet facilities outside? That is how I grew up. We had a very modern house for the area we lived in. We had running water. My Dad pumped water into a 50 gallon tank in the attic and it ran by gravity. It was cold but it was running. We had an indoor potty. it was a 5 gallon pail my Dad carried outside when needed. It was better than the outside one at night or in the winter.
> 
> It was far from squalid. It was a 5 bedroom, 3 floor farmhouse. built by my grandparents.


You miss the point. Did you walk ten miles barefoot in the freezing snow also?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> This is exactly what happened to the progressive women's two threads and the other political threads last year. I don't have to read a new thread to determine that. I'm not bitter, just observing your behavior and can see it coming.


You are very wrong, solowey. You are just bredding contempt in any thread we post in.


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## Knitcrazydeborah (Oct 25, 2011)

Please people, get a grip! When you incentivize poor performance - that is what you get. Teach the masses that you can get free healthcare, free education, free housing, free cell phones, free food...guess what ? Nobody wants to work. That makes for societies that break down under the weight of carrying the able bodied who wish to collect rather than contribute.
Incentivize hard work
Incentivize study & performance
Incentivize self motivation & innovation
Then and ONLY then will you have a society with freedom and economic parity. Where someone who works hard & attempts to achieve will not have the money he earns ripped away & given to those who are not contributing to their own welfare.


----------



## Knitcrazydeborah (Oct 25, 2011)

And one last thing: having worked with "the poor" for the last 40 years this generalization applies:
Making poor decisions & life choices give you poor outcomes.
Recipe for disaster:
Hang out with the dummies who don't study
Skip class
Smoke & do drugs
Get pregnant early
Go on welfare & get child assistance
Live in a crummy area
Get hooked on pain killers, alcohol or hard drugs 
Commit petty crime
Get a jail sentence
Have your kids get put into "protective custody"
Get out, get your kids back, watch them get dragged into gangs &/or drugs
Struggle for years to keep out of jail & keep family together
ORrrrrrr.....
At the beginning ....just study hard, avoid the "bad kids" , get an education, a good job and maybe a good life.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Please explain your comments about the current administration. I don't understand. Thank you.



momeee said:


> Offer your husband my thanks for his heroic service. Our country owes our veterans and soldiers a debt that can never be repaid.... And I fear they'll certainly not get it from this administration.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> I'd say the true Americans are the Native Americans from whom our ancestors took this country. The rest of us are illegal immigrants since we had no legal right to anything here. Think about it, it's the same as what we're trying to apply to today's so called illegal immigrants


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Would it be more correct, in your opinion, to say our ancestors worked and paid their way to this country and then proceeded to cheat and kill the original inhabitants in order to steal their land?



joeysomma said:


> No it's not, since when my ancestors came here they worked and paid their own way. They did not expect any handouts from the government or anyone else.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Meaning....???????



Janeway said:


> The American Indians who were born in America with no other blood line!
> 
> Namely me!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Laws are such messy things when we don't wish to obey them.



BrattyPatty said:


> We wouldn't become energy independent on the oil from Canada. It goes on the open market.
> Wind is ugly? It's free! I have studied the wind turbine energy and out side of building the turbines, which would create thousands of jobs, the cost is much less than oil. Solar may be ugly, but it works.
> 
> We could save billions if we cut defense. There are weapons systems being built that the Pentagon neither wants or needs.
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for providing the information and the sources.



BrattyPatty said:


> Not all of them take pay under the table. Some illegals are actually paying into Social Security which they will never be able to collect because they are not yet citizens. So in some ways they do contribute.
> Stephen Goss, chief actuary of the Social Security Administration estimates that 3.1 million illegal workers pay into Social Security each year. In 2010, undocumented workers and their employers paid $15 billion to Social Security with no intention of ever collecting benefits -- that year illegal workers only received $1 billion back.
> 
> How do working illegal immigrants pay in to and collect Social Security? Some are issued Social Security numbers with their temporary or student visas, others forge documents and were issued numbers by Social Security before they tightened their screening process in 2001, some steal numbers, and others simply make them up.
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

This sounds quite judgmental. Do you seriously think people would want to live on the princely sum of a few hundred dollars a month just to avoid having to work? I don't think that way. Other opinions, please.



Knitcrazydeborah said:


> Please people, get a grip! When you incentivize poor performance - that is what you get. Teach the masses that you can get free healthcare, free education, free housing, free cell phones, free food...guess what ? Nobody wants to work. That makes for societies that break down under the weight of carrying the able bodied who wish to collect rather than contribute.
> Incentivize hard work
> Incentivize study & performance
> Incentivize self motivation & innovation
> Then and ONLY then will you have a society with freedom and economic parity. Where someone who works hard & attempts to achieve will not have the money he earns ripped away & given to those who are not contributing to their own welfare.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Repetitive and judgmental.



Knitcrazydeborah said:


> And one last thing: having worked with "the poor" for the last 40 years this generalization applies:
> Making poor decisions & life choices give you poor outcomes.
> Recipe for disaster:
> Hang out with the dummies who don't study
> ...


----------



## freesia792 (Feb 24, 2012)

I disagree. SS and medicare are not public assistance. Money is taken out of your paycheck to put towards your retirement. It is money paid in advance by the working person. If it isn't, then I want mine back, and I want it NOW. I can spend my money better to suit me, better than the government can. One thing that is breaking the system is payments to folks who are not citizens, never paid a dime into it, and collect from SS and medicare the day they move to this country. SS is not an entitlement because of your age. SS IS an entitlement because you've paid in to it your entire working career. If you haven't paid into it, you should not be collecting from it.


Katsch said:


> Good point Knit crazy.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Knitcrazydeborah said:


> Please people, get a grip! When you incentivize poor performance - that is what you get. Teach the masses that you can get free healthcare, free education, free housing, free cell phones, free food...guess what ? Nobody wants to work. That makes for societies that break down under the weight of carrying the able bodied who wish to collect rather than contribute.
> Incentivize hard work
> Incentivize study & performance
> Incentivize self motivation & innovation
> Then and ONLY then will you have a society with freedom and economic parity. Where someone who works hard & attempts to achieve will not have the money he earns ripped away & given to those who are not contributing to their own welfare.


Three cheers for this post. I hope others will continue to repost so the message keeps repeating. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

damemary said:


> Would it be more correct, in your opinion, to say our ancestors worked and paid their way to this country and then proceeded to cheat and kill the original inhabitants in order to steal their land?


American Indians never thought they owned the land. That was a foreign concept to them. Did they get a raw deal? Absolutely. But, like slavery it is not current day American's responsibility to provide reparation. The native Americans pushed west by the invading Europeans are dead. If they didn't own deeds to the land they can't sue for return of land. No court would hear that case.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> What made it legal ????? A piece of paper. What makes them illegal the lack of a piece of paper.
> 
> To return for a moment to your remark about history. The majority of history is written by the victors. The history I refer to and am part of is the history of the people. Have you read Howard Zinn? i have read traditional history for years and see the lies for what they are.


No, PeaceGoddess, law makes them illegal. There are all kinds of revisionists claiming historical precedence. I am talking about the history accepted by mainstream educators, not radical historical thinkers, who spend thinking up new slants on accepted history.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> ...
> There are extremists of every religion, including Muslims, Christians, and Jews. Remember the crusades, the Inquisition, the Jewish ghettos in Europe? To name a few.
> I know many Muslim men and women from the Middle East they are warm, kind, loving people who respect me and my religion. We share meals and participate in social events together. I have great affection for them and their children. I do not fear Muslims. I do fear extremists of any religion...and Mulsims have their share just as Christians do.


Good for you!
I'm sure there are may others here who could elaborate anti-establishment peace-loving stories like yours. But the fact of the matter is that the Muslims who follow their Qu'ran teachings have one goal - to eliminate the infidel - that is anyone who doesn't follow the teachings of their prophet.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> In other words, Love it or leave it. Wasn't that one of Archie Bunker's sayings?


I'm just asking you to put your actions where your mouth is. You don't like America, so why are you living here? I'll bet if you think about it, you couldn't say what you say in any other country and get away with it. Hurrah for the 1st Amendment. Try it in Russia, or Iran, or anywhere in the Middle East.


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## sjrNC (Jul 30, 2012)

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/ssi/spotlights/spot-non-citizens.htm

for interested parties immigrants can receive SSI benefits.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> "Sometimes", "many", and "I've been told" are all indications that a person hasn't bothered to do his or her own research. Why not get the hard facts to back up what you're saying if you want people to take it seriously?


My dissertation was written long ago. I wouldn't spend excessive time to post something that will be dismissed out of hand because it isn't what the 'other' side wants to believe. Take it or leave it, research it, debate it, but don't deny it unless you can prove otherwise.,


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> No, PeaceGoddess, law makes them illegal. There are all kinds of revisionists claiming historical precedence. I am talking about the history accepted by mainstream educators, not radical historical thinkers, who spend thinking up new slants on accepted history.


Like I said, the victors, acceptance does not necessarily make a thing so.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> I'm just asking you to put your actions where your mouth is. You don't like America, so why are you living here? I'll bet if you think about it, you couldn't say what you say in any other country and get away with it. Hurrah for the 1st Amendment. Try it in Russia, or Iran, or anywhere in the Middle East.


There are other countries that have free speech besides America. You do enjoy making a fruit salad.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> That is not an answer. It is emotional knee jerk "I am a patriot and you aren't". What differentiates us from other countries that have constitutional liberties equal to ours?
> 
> You continually revert to 1950's McCarthy speak.


I am not discussing Communism, that failed political model doesn't seem much of a threat now. The real threat is the religious war (jihad) that the Muslims are planning and now putting into action. If you want to believe that they really like us go ahead. I see the drive for a Caliphate. I see them moving from country to country in the Middle East killing Christians. i see them constantly threatening Israel with war. I see them proselytizing in Africa, Malaysia, and China. I hear their words, "Use any lies to deceive the West. Soon it will be too late." I see the Boston bombings as the beginning of a long fight to retain my religious freedom. I don't want to fight Muslims, and I don't seek to convert them. But, when a religion tellis us that we insist you become Muslim or you die, I not stupid enough to think they don't mean it.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

momeee said:


> Good for you!
> I'm sure there are may others here who could elaborate anti-establishment peace-loving stories like yours. But the fact of the matter is that the Muslims who follow their Qu'ran teachings have one goal - to eliminate the infidel - that is anyone who doesn't follow the teachings of their prophet.


I knew it would happen someday. Ronald Reagan and Joe McCarthy have returned in the guise of knitting enthusiasts.


----------



## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

freesia792 said:


> I disagree. SS and medicare are not public assistance. Money is taken out of your paycheck to put towards your retirement. It is money paid in advance by the working person. If it isn't, then I want mine back, and I want it NOW. I can spend my money better to suit me, better than the government can. One thing that is breaking the system is payments to folks who are not citizens, never paid a dime into it, and collect from SS and medicare the day they move to this country. SS is not an entitlement because of your age. SS IS an entitlement because you've paid in to it your entire working career. If you haven't paid into it, you should not be collecting from it.


 I agree also. Here is a thought or two...
Have you noticed, your Social Security check is now referred to as a "Federal Benefit Payment"?

The government is now referring to our Social Security checks as a "Federal Benefit Payment." This isn't a benefit - its earned income! Not only did we workers all contribute to Social Security but our employers did too.

It totaled 15% of our income before taxes. If you averaged $30K per year over your working life, that's close to $180,000 invested in Social Security. If you calculate the future value of your monthly investment in social security ($375/month, including both your and your employer's contributions) at a meager 1% interest rate compounded monthly, after 40 years of working you'd have more than $1.3+ million dollars saved!

This is your personal investment, not the government's personal slush fund!!!

Upon retirement, if you took out only 3% per year, you'd receive $39,318 peryear, or $3,277 per month. That's almost three times more than today's average Social Security benefit of $1,230 per month, according to the Social Security Administration (Google it - it's a fact).

And your retirement fund would last more than 33 years (until you're 98 if you retire at age 65)! I can only imagine how much better most average-income people could live in retirement if our government had just invested our money in low-risk interest-earning accounts.

Instead, the folks in Washington pulled off a bigger Ponzi scheme than Bernie Madoff ever did. They took our money and used it elsewhere. They "forgot" that it was OUR money they were taking. They didn't have a referendum to ask us if we wanted to lend the money to them.

And they didn't pay interest on the debt they assumed. And recently, they've told us that the money won't support us for very much longer. But is it our fault they misused our investments?

And now, to add insult to injury, they're calling it a "benefit," as if we never worked to earn every penny of it. Just because they "borrowed" the money, doesn't mean that our investments were a charity! Let's take a stand.

We have earned our right to Social Security and Medicare. Demand that our legislators bring some sense into our government - Find a way to keep Social Security and Medicare going, for the sake of that 92% of our population who need it.

Don't bother posting which administration first borrowed it. What is important is that it needs to be repaid and no subsequent administrations have had the decency to see that it was rectified.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> No it's not, since when my ancestors came here they worked and paid their own way. They did not expect any handouts from the government or anyone else.


There were also no immigration laws then, so they weren't illegal.


----------



## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> I'm just asking you to put your actions where your mouth is. You don't like America, so why are you living here? I'll bet if you think about it, you couldn't say what you say in any other country and get away with it. Hurrah for the 1st Amendment. Try it in Russia, or Iran, or anywhere in the Middle East.


How correct you are. I wish all those who hate our policies, government, democracy, etc. would go elsewhere and try to make a world that would satisfy them. It couldn't happen. Those who emigrate to the US can not be allowed to attempt to bring it down.

Being critical, voicing those thoughts are rights we are given and I respect that, but anti-American actions deserve to be curtailed. Political correctness has worn out its welcome.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitcrazydeborah said:


> Please people, get a grip! When you incentivize poor performance - that is what you get. Teach the masses that you can get free healthcare, free education, free housing, free cell phones, free food...guess what ? Nobody wants to work. That makes for societies that break down under the weight of carrying the able bodied who wish to collect rather than contribute.
> Incentivize hard work
> Incentivize study & performance
> Incentivize self motivation & innovation
> Then and ONLY then will you have a society with freedom and economic parity. Where someone who works hard & attempts to achieve will not have the money he earns ripped away & given to those who are not contributing to their own welfare.


How?


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## sjrNC (Jul 30, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> The reference above is not for Social Security Benefits as most people think of them.
> 
> It is for SSI (Supplemental Security Income). Totally different. This one is an entitlement.


I realized that and then edited it to say for SSI benefits.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> Like I said, the victors, acceptance does not necessarily make a thing so.


Law is more than acceptance. It is the set of contracted rights we must live by. Your whims don't hold any weight under law.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Bush did not try to find Bin Laden. Youtube Bush on finding Bin Laden and you will hear the words right from his mouth that he didn't care about finding Bin Laden.
> As for the WMD, the United Nations team were in Iraq and found none. The Bush admin had them removed from Iraq, and Bush attacked, knowing that there were none. He lied to Congress and to the American people about the Iraq war. The Axis of Evil is just another Bushism
> The Taliban is still alive ,and operating in Afghanistan to this day.
> Both wars were a folly at a huge cost to this country.


If you believe everything you see and hear on Utube you are foolish. Dogs don't talk, but they do on Utube.


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## medusa (Nov 20, 2012)

error, sorry!


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## medusa (Nov 20, 2012)

indices said:


> I think we should all remember in these discussions that not all of us start off equal at birth. Some not so bright some in the wrong place etc.
> Enjoy your wealth but try and not despise those who do not have so much. Remember there are fewer of you than there are of us so the really real world is the one of ordinary people.
> 
> Indices


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I applaud your statement!!!


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> I am not discussing Communism, that failed political model doesn't seem much of a threat now. The real threat is the religious war (jihad) that the Muslims are planning and now putting into action. If you want to believe that they really like us go ahead. I see the drive for a Caliphate. I see them moving from country to country in the Middle East killing Christians. i see them constantly threatening Israel with war. I see them proselytizing in Africa, Malaysia, and China. I hear their words, "Use any lies to deceive the West. Soon it will be too late." I see the Boston bombings as the beginning of a long fight to retain my religious freedom. I don't want to fight Muslims, and I don't seek to convert them. But, when a religion tellis us that we insist you become Muslim or you die, I not stupid enough to think they don't mean it.


Well I believe we have gone the gamut on this issue. We might find common ground about a knitting pattern or a recipe, perhaps a discussion on heirloom tomatoes and determinate vs indeterminate. We are miles from each other on politics and social issues. i wish you peace.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

momeee said:


> How correct you are. I wish all those who hate our policies, government, democracy, etc. would go elsewhere and try to make a world that would satisfy them. It couldn't happen. Those who emigrate to the US can not be allowed to attempt to bring it down.
> 
> Being critical, voicing those thoughts are rights we are given and I respect that, but anti-American actions deserve to be curtailed. Political correctness has worn out its welcome.


What is anti-American about anything I have said or done? It is legitimate criticism. Is America only for people who do not question the status quo? I would argue that you spout "political correctness" that is accepted by others who believe as you do. I could easily say to you, if the kitchen of free speech is too hot for you then you should leave the kitchen. Love it or leave it advocates results in a populace of people unwilling to hear uncomfortable free speech.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> So what is wrong with toilet facilities outside? That is how I grew up. We had a very modern house for the area we lived in. We had running water. My Dad pumped water into a 50 gallon tank in the attic and it ran by gravity. It was cold but it was running. We had an indoor potty. it was a 5 gallon pail my Dad carried outside when needed. It was better than the outside one at night or in the winter.
> 
> It was far from squalid. It was a 5 bedroom, 3 floor farmhouse. built by my grandparents.


You know, there are reasons why they not around anymore, right?


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> I'm just asking you to put your actions where your mouth is. You don't like America, so why are you living here? I'll bet if you think about it, you couldn't say what you say in any other country and get away with it. Hurrah for the 1st Amendment. Try it in Russia, or Iran, or anywhere in the Middle East.


The same could be said to you. If you don't like the present administration and you don't like the government, et. al., why don't you consider moving somewhere else.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> The same could be said to you. If you don't like the present administration and you don't like the government, et. al., why don't you consider moving somewhere else.


I can wait out Obama's term. I don't like him, but I love this country.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> What is anti-American about anything I have said or done? It is legitimate criticism. Is America only for people who do not question the status quo?


No, otherwise the conservatives would be among the first to pack their bags and decamp for Belize, that overseas GOP stronghold. They are among the worst critics of our country with their declarations that Obama is not THEIR President and, since they didn't vote for him, they're under no obligation to support the current Administration.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> No, otherwise the conservatives would be among the first to pack their bags and decamp for Belize, that overseas GOP stronghold. They are among the worst critics of our country with their declarations that Obama is not THEIR President and, since they didn't vote for him, they're under no obligation to support the current Administration.


Well that's real love for your country, isn't it? How do love the country but not support the president? Notice I did not like him - you don't have to like him.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> What is anti-American about anything I have said or done? It is legitimate criticism. Is America only for people who do not question the status quo? I would argue that you spout "political correctness" that is accepted by others who believe as you do. I could easily say to you, if the kitchen of free speech is too hot for you then you should leave the kitchen. Love it or leave it advocates results in a populace of people unwilling to hear uncomfortable free speech.


I am leaving for knitting topics. Why try to discuss anything with people who prefer their fantasies of changing this nation to socialist ideals. It's hopeless. Mommee keep up the good fight for reason, I'm tired of the progressive left and their screwy ideas. By the way did you hear that the administration hired out security in Benghazi to Al Qaeda? Now we have a good idea why Obama wanted to cover up the killings there with an impossible story of an anti-Muslim video.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Exactly. I wasn't pleased to have Reagan and Bush Junior and Senior as my Presidents during their terms in office, but being a good American means accepting the results of an election with a measure of grace. The conservatives in this thread should do the same--their spoken wish that Obama be killed in office is nauseating.


----------



## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> What is anti-American about anything I have said or done? It is legitimate criticism. Is America only for people who do not question the status quo? I would argue that you spout "political correctness" that is accepted by others who believe as you do. I could easily say to you, if the kitchen of free speech is too hot for you then you should leave the kitchen. Love it or leave it advocates results in a populace of people unwilling to hear uncomfortable free speech.


Did you read "anti-American ACTIONS"? If the shoe fits, wear it, if not ignore.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Exactly. I wasn't pleased to have Reagan and Bush Junior and Senior as my Presidents during their terms in office, but being a good American means accepting the results of an election with a measure of grace. The conservatives in this thread should do the same--their spoken wish that Obama be killed in office is nauseating.


I never heard one person on this site say that. More lies from the left.


----------



## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> I am leaving for knitting topics. Why try to discuss anything with people who prefer their fantasies of changing this nation to socialist ideals. It's hopeless. Mommee keep up the good fight for reason, I'm tired of the progressive left and their screwy ideas. By the way did you hear that the administration hired out security in Benghazi to Al Qaeda? Now we have a good idea why Obama wanted to cover up the killings there with an impossible story of an anti-Muslim video.


Thank you. No, I did not learn of the security for hire in Benghazi...but it makes sense given the deception O has put in place. I do so agree with you on so many things. I fear we 
still have more to learn that will further expose this administration's decisions that are damaging to American security. Transparency promised, right?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> I never heard one person on this site say that. More lies from the left.


I have--lukelucy, when Obama was in Israel. People were absolutely appalled.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I have--lukelucy, when Obama was in Israel. People were absolutely appalled.


This thread has not been existence that long.


----------



## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

Lina said:


> My husband has a small business. Sorry, but we don't get those tax breaks. We get to pay taxes disguised as fees.


That is true, I had an small business that I had to close due to the economy. I no longer could afford the rent, taxes, ""Fees" Etc...Etc... That kept going up.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

momeee said:


> Thank you. No, I did not learn of the security for hire in Benghazi...but it makes sense given the deception O has put in place. I do so agree with you on so many things. I fear we
> still have more to learn that will further expose this administration's decisions that are damaging to American security. Transparency promised, right?


Right, but we will learn the truth from the State Dept whistle blowers. This is likely being leaked by one of them, but we will have to wait until Wed. To learn more.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> This thread has not been existence that long.


No, it hasn't. The comment was made in one of the Obamacare threads.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> No, it hasn't. The comment was made in one of the Obamacare threads.


I wasn't there.


----------



## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Right, but we will learn the truth from the State Dept whistle blowers. This is likely being leaked by one of them, but we will have to wait until Wed. To learn more.


With each revelation, I keep hoping to hear the word impeachment or treason...what will it take? Clinton lied, but was his lie to the grand jury as serious and damaging as the multitude of lies (and other decisions, negligence) o has perpetrated?


----------



## cheryl ridgway (Jan 31, 2013)

alcameron said:


> Who said the Canadian pipeline would make us energy independent? I don't think so! That's not going to be our oil.


You're exactly right, alcameron. A few days ago, I listened to a debate on NPR about the keystone pipeline and an alternate pipeline that would run across Canada and end at a port in British Columbia. The customers for this pipeline would be China. The keystone pipeline customers would mostly be foreign. So the US would get very little out of any pipelines. Its a world market now and the highest payers get the oil. There is plenty of credible info out there about the pros and cons of fracking. The newest and perhaps biggest potential natural gas fields runs from central california to southern california. It just so happens that this oil field runs along the San Andreas faultline. Our legislature is hammering out regulations now in anticipation of oil leases bidding. I don't believe local residents should run the risk of earthquakes and pollution of water supplies if most of the oil found here is going to end up in other countries.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> I wasn't there.


Well, just for your edification here it is:

They bombed Israel while Obama is there. Too bad they missed him. (Lukelucy 3/21/13)

How is it possible for anyone to speak such vile words without dropping the American flag clutched between his or her teeth? Lukelucy made a noble attempt but failed miserably.


----------



## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

jbachman said:


> I work in a tax prep office during tax season. I have learned a lot not only about taxes, but about people.
> 
> When reading (especially on line) on the different options regarding USA taxes it is important to make sure to the reader differetiates between facts and opinions.
> 
> ...


I know what you mean, Im retired and went to one of the big name of tax preparers they had a sign that said. "Switch and save $50.00 of what you paid last year" I went and said I pay $90.00 last year somewhere else, do that means you'll do it for $40.00?

Then I was told they would do it for $120.00 that including the discount. I told them it didnt make any sense I laughed and left, went to the same people who did it last year and they did it for $50.00! A savings of $40.00 then I went back to the big name place and showed them what I paid. :lol: :lol:


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

cheryl ridgway said:


> You're exactly right, alcameron. A few days ago, I listened to a debate on NPR about the keystone pipeline and an alternate pipeline that would run across Canada and end at a port in British Columbia. The customers for this pipeline would be China. The keystone pipeline customers would mostly be foreign. So the US would get very little out of any pipelines. Its a world market now and the highest payers get the oil. There is plenty of credible info out there about the pros and cons of fracking. The newest and perhaps biggest potential natural gas fields runs from central california to southern california. It just so happens that this oil field runs along the San Andreas faultline. Our legislature is hammering out regulations now in anticipation of oil leases bidding. I don't believe local residents should run the risk of earthquakes and pollution of water supplies if most of the oil found here is going to end up in other countries.


Fracking spooks me, but the fracking along the earthquake fault is really spooky. Another issue with fracking is it uses water in the initial process and California already has water issues. Then of course the disposal of the tainted water after the act, I mean frack. Small farmers, ag businesses, and cattle people should be up in arms. Last anti fracking march I attended there were small farmers present, but no major ag business people or cattlewo/men. I need to do some research on who else is on the no fracking side.


----------



## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

lfitzie said:


> IF YOU WANT TO BE IN THE BRACKET THAT HAS YOU PAYING A MILLION IN TAXES THEN YOU NEED TO GET OFF THIS BLOG AND GET OUT TO WORK, OR INVENT SOMETHING THAT SOMEONE ELSE NEEDS, OR CURE CANCER OR .....BECOME A POLITICIAN.


No need to shout! :thumbdown:


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Knitcrazydeborah said:


> And one last thing: having worked with "the poor" for the last 40 years this generalization applies:
> Making poor decisions & life choices give you poor outcomes.
> Recipe for disaster:
> Hang out with the dummies who don't study
> ...


I think this and your prior post are gross oversimplifications.


----------



## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

RUKnitting said:


> No four letters tells it all.......WORK....at school and then at everything you do and don't look to Uncle Sam to solve your problems. And if you don't THEN you will get poorer ....and poorer....and poorer.


Barfe! :thumbdown:


----------



## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Where did you get your numbers from? How many people are in this family? Your statement makes no sense since you have taken it out of context.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> What's your point? You sound like a bag of hot air. Who is asking Uncle Sam to support them, you?


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> I'm just asking you to put your actions where your mouth is. You don't like America, so why are you living here? I'll bet if you think about it, you couldn't say what you say in any other country and get away with it. Hurrah for the 1st Amendment. Try it in Russia, or Iran, or anywhere in the Middle East.


Given the amount of complaining you've done about some conditions in this country, and some of your inaccurate explanations for those complaints, I wonder you claim to like America and suggest that someone else should leave.


----------



## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> Geez, you mean all the taxes I paid into Social Security for 32 years, and the payments out of my Social Security every month for my Medicare are public assistance? I don't think so!


I paid 42 years, Is our right to get the benefits and is not public assistance as you so welll put it.

:thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> No, PeaceGoddess, law makes them illegal. There are all kinds of revisionists claiming historical precedence. I am talking about the history accepted by mainstream educators, not radical historical thinkers, who spend thinking up new slants on accepted history.


Law made by the victors may make them illegal in your view. There is no way you could convince me that running off the people who were first is not stealing something that does not belong to the settlers. Mainstream educators teach a lot of untruths because that's what they were taught and because they're trying to keep their jobs. I think the majority of people accept any version of history that makes them look good; truth has very little to do with it.


----------



## cheryl ridgway (Jan 31, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> Fracking spooks me, but the fracking along the earthquake fault is really spooky. Another issue with fracking is it uses water in the initial process and California already has water issues. Then of course the disposal of the tainted water after the act, I mean frack. Small farmers, ag businesses, and cattle people should be up in arms. Last anti fracking march I attended there were small farmers present, but no major ag business people or cattlewo/men. I need to do some research on who else is on the no fracking side.


Dear peacegoddess, I sense that you and I are kindred spirits. Aren't we blessed to live where we do -- an oasis of progressive thinking. I wouldn't choose to be anywhere else in the world.


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

momeee said:


> Good for you!
> I'm sure there are may others here who could elaborate anti-establishment peace-loving stories like yours. But the fact of the matter is that the Muslims who follow their Qu'ran teachings have one goal - to eliminate the infidel - that is anyone who doesn't follow the teachings of their prophet.


And apparently "Christians" have one goal - to convert the world to Christianity even as they ignore most of what Christ taught about judging others, abusing the poor, condemning anyone who doesn't fit the mold of moral superiority they don't fit themselves. It's no wonder so many have left Christian churches in the USA; the members seem to be the worst offenders as far as following basic teachings.


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> I knew it would happen someday. Ronald Reagan and Joe McCarthy have returned in the guise of knitting enthusiasts.


:~D!!!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Can you feel any shame at the brutality and lies they suffered? Who's talking about suing anyone? You are.



Knit crazy said:


> American Indians never thought they owned the land. That was a foreign concept to them. Did they get a raw deal? Absolutely. But, like slavery it is not current day American's responsibility to provide reparation. The native Americans pushed west by the invading Europeans are dead. If they didn't own deeds to the land they can't sue for return of land. No court would hear that case.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

They say history is usually written first by the winners, and they make themselves look good.



Knit crazy said:


> No, PeaceGoddess, law makes them illegal. There are all kinds of revisionists claiming historical precedence. I am talking about the history accepted by mainstream educators, not radical historical thinkers, who spend thinking up new slants on accepted history.


----------



## Lukelucy (Nov 19, 2011)

Lina,

I love what you wrote. How true it is. It is infuriating the BObama conveys this misconception.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> I am not discussing Communism, that failed political model doesn't seem much of a threat now. The real threat is the religious war (jihad) that the Muslims are planning and now putting into action. If you want to believe that they really like us go ahead. I see the drive for a Caliphate. I see them moving from country to country in the Middle East killing Christians. i see them constantly threatening Israel with war. I see them proselytizing in Africa, Malaysia, and China. I hear their words, "Use any lies to deceive the West. Soon it will be too late." I see the Boston bombings as the beginning of a long fight to retain my religious freedom. I don't want to fight Muslims, and I don't seek to convert them. But, when a religion tellis us that we insist you become Muslim or you die, I not stupid enough to think they don't mean it.


 :?: :?: :?: :?:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Who'da thunk it? Til now.



peacegoddess said:


> I knew it would happen someday. Ronald Reagan and Joe McCarthy have returned in the guise of knitting enthusiasts.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

So they get a 'get out of jail free card.'

IMHO one of the most frustrating thoughts in these 'discussions' is the 'law.' Not right or wrong. Not ethics or morality. Just 'what we can get away with.' To me that is much more dangerous than prayer in public school (Incidentally, anyone has always been able to pray to themselves to their heart's content.), abortion (a legal procedure forced on no one.), etc. Insert your own bugaboo.



Knit crazy said:


> There were also no immigration laws then, so they weren't illegal.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And I wish all the sanctimonious readers would go on a nice one-way cruise and leave the USA.



momeee said:


> How correct you are. I wish all those who hate our policies, government, democracy, etc. would go elsewhere and try to make a world that would satisfy them. It couldn't happen. Those who emigrate to the US can not be allowed to attempt to bring it down.
> 
> Being critical, voicing those thoughts are rights we are given and I respect that, but anti-American actions deserve to be curtailed. Political correctness has worn out its welcome.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And morality and ethics have no place in your closed mind.



Knit crazy said:


> Law is more than acceptance. It is the set of contracted rights we must live by. Your whims don't hold any weight under law.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

momeee said:


> Good for you!
> I'm sure there are may others here who could elaborate anti-establishment peace-loving stories like yours. But the fact of the matter is that the Muslims who follow their Qu'ran teachings have one goal - to eliminate the infidel - that is anyone who doesn't follow the teachings of their prophet.


But that is lumping all Muslims into one category. Just like in Christianity, there are extremists and there are some Muslims that go to an extreme. I believe there might be some passages in the Bible that mention performing extreme actions also.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> What is anti-American about anything I have said or done? It is legitimate criticism. Is America only for people who do not question the status quo? I would argue that you spout "political correctness" that is accepted by others who believe as you do. I could easily say to you, if the kitchen of free speech is too hot for you then you should leave the kitchen. Love it or leave it advocates results in a populace of people unwilling to hear uncomfortable free speech.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

President Hillary Rodham Clinton has such a nice ring to it. Nine more years. Think how she will love being able to complete her health care initiatives on top of President Barack Obama?



Knit crazy said:


> I can wait out Obama's term. I don't like him, but I love this country.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The Democrats have a good lead going into the next Presidential Election. President Hillary Rodham Clinton has such a nice ring to it, don't you think?



susanmos2000 said:


> No, otherwise the conservatives would be among the first to pack their bags and decamp for Belize, that overseas GOP stronghold. They are among the worst critics of our country with their declarations that Obama is not THEIR President and, since they didn't vote for him, they're under no obligation to support the current Administration.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Hit and run. Dump your rumors and pretend you're leaving. I'm afraid we'll hear from you again.



Knit crazy said:


> I am leaving for knitting topics. Why try to discuss anything with people who prefer their fantasies of changing this nation to socialist ideals. It's hopeless. Mommee keep up the good fight for reason, I'm tired of the progressive left and their screwy ideas. By the way did you hear that the administration hired out security in Benghazi to Al Qaeda? Now we have a good idea why Obama wanted to cover up the killings there with an impossible story of an anti-Muslim video.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Hope the Secret Service knits.



susanmos2000 said:


> Exactly. I wasn't pleased to have Reagan and Bush Junior and Senior as my Presidents during their terms in office, but being a good American means accepting the results of an election with a measure of grace. The conservatives in this thread should do the same--their spoken wish that Obama be killed in office is nauseating.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ignored. So easy.



momeee said:


> Did you read "anti-American ACTIONS"? If the shoe fits, wear it, if not ignore.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Boy, that didn't take long. I thought you said you were leaving.



Knit crazy said:


> I never heard one person on this site say that. More lies from the left.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Beat that dead horse and fling rumors as you go.



momeee said:


> Thank you. No, I did not learn of the security for hire in Benghazi...but it makes sense given the deception O has put in place. I do so agree with you on so many things. I fear we
> still have more to learn that will further expose this administration's decisions that are damaging to American security. Transparency promised, right?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I recall it also. Now who's inventing things?



susanmos2000 said:


> I have--lukelucy, when Obama was in Israel. People were absolutely appalled.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The 'letter of the thread' again? Come on. I thought you said you were leaving! Oh well, I'll celebrate something else with my tea.



Knit crazy said:


> This thread has not been existence that long.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ignored.



Knit crazy said:


> Right, but we will learn the truth from the State Dept whistle blowers. This is likely being leaked by one of them, but we will have to wait until Wed. To learn more.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

cheryl ridgway said:


> Dear peacegoddess, I sense that you and I are kindred spirits. Aren't we blessed to live where we do -- an oasis of progressive thinking. I wouldn't choose to be anywhere else in the world.


I am happy to be in California. I have met progressives in other parts of the country, but I think we are concentrated on the west coast. Although I remind myself that interior California is similar to midwest U S. and California did give the rest of the nation Ronald Reagan and richard Nixon. It is an oasis.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Have a nice cruise.



Knit crazy said:


> I wasn't there.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ignored.



momeee said:


> With each revelation, I keep hoping to hear the word impeachment or treason...what will it take? Clinton lied, but was his lie to the grand jury as serious and damaging as the multitude of lies (and other decisions, negligence) o has perpetrated?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

cheryl ridgway said:


> You're exactly right, alcameron. A few days ago, I listened to a debate on NPR about the keystone pipeline and an alternate pipeline that would run across Canada and end at a port in British Columbia. The customers for this pipeline would be China. The keystone pipeline customers would mostly be foreign. So the US would get very little out of any pipelines. Its a world market now and the highest payers get the oil. There is plenty of credible info out there about the pros and cons of fracking. The newest and perhaps biggest potential natural gas fields runs from central california to southern california. It just so happens that this oil field runs along the San Andreas faultline. Our legislature is hammering out regulations now in anticipation of oil leases bidding. I don't believe local residents should run the risk of earthquakes and pollution of water supplies if most of the oil found here is going to end up in other countries.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: At least someone's thinking rationally. Bravo!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Shame Lucy.



susanmos2000 said:


> Well, just for your edification here it is:
> 
> They bombed Israel while Obama is there. Too bad they missed him. (Lukelucy 3/21/13)
> 
> How is it possible for anyone to speak such vile words without dropping the American flag clutched between his or her teeth? Lukelucy made a noble attempt but failed miserably.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Have a nice cruise. It's booking up.



SAMkewel said:


> Given the amount of complaining you've done about some conditions in this country, and some of your inaccurate explanations for those complaints, I wonder you claim to like America and suggest that someone else should leave.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> Law made by the victors may make them illegal in your view. There is no way you could convince me that running off the people who were first is not stealing something that does not belong to the settlers. Mainstream educators teach a lot of untruths because that's what they were taught and because they're trying to keep their jobs. I think the majority of people accept any version of history that makes them look good; truth has very little to do with it.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Welcome Cheryl.



cheryl ridgway said:


> Dear peacegoddess, I sense that you and I are kindred spirits. Aren't we blessed to live where we do -- an oasis of progressive thinking. I wouldn't choose to be anywhere else in the world.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> And apparently "Christians" have one goal - to convert the world to Christianity even as they ignore most of what Christ taught about judging others, abusing the poor, condemning anyone who doesn't fit the mold of moral superiority they don't fit themselves. It's no wonder so many have left Christian churches in the USA; the members seem to be the worst offenders as far as following basic teachings.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: You're good. Bravo.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ah, any more kind thoughts to add to the discussion, or are you being violent again today?



Lukelucy said:


> Lina,
> 
> I love what you wrote. How true it is. It is infuriating the BObama conveys this misconception.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I haven't heard of septic tanks in years. Sounds a little behind the times to me.



joeysomma said:


> I know they have septic systems now. They need to be pumped and inspected every 3 years. Where do you think they put the stuff they pump? With weather permitting, it is spread on fields, when avaiable. So what is the difference?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> Have a nice cruise. It's booking up.


Can elephants swim? Maybe she could just hold her trunk out of the water.


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

damemary said:


> So they get a 'get out of jail free card.'
> 
> IMHO one of the most frustrating thoughts in these 'discussions' is the 'law.' Not right or wrong. Not ethics or morality. Just 'what we can get away with.' To me that is much more dangerous than prayer in public school (Incidentally, anyone has always been able to pray to themselves to their heart's content.), abortion (a legal procedure forced on no one.), etc. Insert your own bugaboo.


Strongly agree :~).


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

courier770 said:


> I still believe the philanthropy of the wealthy is something we seem to be overlooking. Their very generous gifts go DIRECTLY to those in need, without a metric ton, of red tape! I look around the city I live in, and the University in this city and I see so much good that has been done by the wealthy.
> 
> The organizations they have so generously given to, help those who often fall through the cracks of our social welfare/government agencies.
> 
> ...


Very well put, Courier!


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## Lukelucy (Nov 19, 2011)

Well said, Courier. Let's clarify. The wealthy pay more taxes than people who make less.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Lukelucy (Nov 19, 2011)

Carol from TX,

Love your response. Great thoughts.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Knitcrazydeborah said:


> And one last thing: having worked with "the poor" for the last 40 years this generalization applies:
> Making poor decisions & life choices give you poor outcomes.
> Recipe for disaster:
> Hang out with the dummies who don't study
> ...


Amen on both of your posts. :thumbup:


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## freesia792 (Feb 24, 2012)

That is a wonderful post. VERY true! It's exactly the point. All the programs for doing nothing is making hard work "out of style". Eventually, things will break down to the point more people are on assistance than the working can afford. Like having half a country of teenagers...I want, I want. The government keeps giving just to shut them up! Assistance is important for people to get them through hard times. No one objects to that. People object when it becomes considered by those who abuse it as "a living."


momeee said:


> Three cheers for this post. I hope others will continue to repost so the message keeps repeating. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

alcameron said:


> If there's no chance of the bills being passed in the Senate, what's the point? There has to be some kind of meeting of the minds to do something for the benefit of the country rather than for political gain.


Nothing will ever get done with the it's us vs. them attitude running rampant in Washington. I have no hopes for anything to happen now, but in 2014 we have a chance to make some changes. I just hope they are the correct ones for the country.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

alcameron said:


> We're back to what a fair share is. I'm not super rich and I pay the same taxes. I don't have children in the public schools because I'm retired. I pay sales tax on all taxable items on my state. Maybe it's time to look seriously at how much the super rich pay. What evidence can you show me that they pay their fair share? What evidence is there that they are entitled to tax loopholes? Why can't I have loopholes? Because I don't make enough money? I just don't understand this preoccupation with protecting the rich from paying higher taxes. Again, I say the ones who believe this must be the rich. I can't think of any other reason. Accusations are made against "welfare moms" scamming the system. Aren't tax loopholes there to scam the system, even though they're legal? Why can't these loopholes be examined and perhaps disallowed?


One's fair share is an idea, not an actual number. It is to promote the concept of social justice and divide the country. The tax codes allow all to use loopholes. They are legal. Welfare scams are not. Granted the rich are able to use most of them, but they are available for all to use. I agree that the tax codes need to be revised and many eliminated.

It is not just about protecting the rich. It is about singling out one portion of the population, in this case the rich, to have them do something (pay more in taxes) that the other members of the country will not be required to do.


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## cheryl ridgway (Jan 31, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> Nothing will ever get done with the it's us vs. them attitude running rampant in Washington. I have no hopes for anything to happen now, but in 2014 we have a chance to make some changes. I just hope they are the correct ones for the country.


But the real problem is that the "us vs. them" attitude starts with the people -- as amply reflected on this website. I'll bet not one person changed their minds by anything anyone on this thread said. The people who agree with each other say nice things to each other. The people who disagree with someone are mostly rude and insulting. I haven't really noticed any true dialogue and listening going on here. How do you expect anything to be different in Washington?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

cheryl ridgway said:


> But the real problem is that the "us vs. them" attitude starts with the people -- as amply reflected on this website. I'll bet not one person changed their minds by anything anyone on this thread said. The people who agree with each other say nice things to each other. The people who disagree with someone are mostly rude and insulting. I haven't really noticed any true dialogue and listening going on here. How do you expect anything to be different in Washington?


You are right. It is difficult to find common ground to begin a discussion. People need to be willing to go to sites of information they are not comfortable with and read the info and see if possibly there is something positive they can glean from it.

As a prochoice woman I understand the outrage people feel about late term abortions, I do not like them either. I agree that the guy in Penn (I think it is Penn) who is on trial is a type of monster. However all people hear is prochoice and they go no further. This is just one example.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

momeee said:


> ...and the legal citizens, unemployed, on welfare or not, sometimes work and are paid off the books, thus, they pay no taxes, and continue to reap whatever bennies the generosity of our govt. will allow. Many get free housing, or rent, assistance, fuel assistance, free or reduced utilities, free furniture, appliances...and more. There is no end to what our Socialist state will offer. Ive been told that some citizens have more than one SS # so they can collect more than one welfare check. Meanwhile the farmers are struggling, or losing their farms and we have to import workers to do entry level jobs.


A St. Louis paper stated that there was 2.2B in welfare fraud in 2011. I would agree that welfare recipients have more than one SS#.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> I'd say the true Americans are the Native Americans from whom our ancestors took this country. The rest of us are illegal immigrants since we had no legal right to anything here. Think about it, it's the same as what we're trying to apply to today's so called illegal immigrants


It's not the same thing. America wasn't a country when our ancestors stole it from the Indian tribes. Today we are a country and the illegal immigrants are breaking our country's laws. Their countries of origin have immigration laws that they enforce. Just because our country has let our enforcement slide does not mean that our laws should be broken. It certainly doesn't mean that they are entitled to what our citizens have just because they are here.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

damemary said:


> This sounds quite judgmental. Do you seriously think people would want to live on the princely sum of a few hundred dollars a month just to avoid having to work? I don't think that way. Other opinions, please.


If only it were a "few hundred dollars" a month - they would not. In reality it is much, much more.


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## Lukelucy (Nov 19, 2011)

Amen, again to what you wrote. Have seen the same things. Poor choices. 

There are many people who come from "undesirable" backgrounds and do the right thing and live a productive happy life. They made the right choices.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> It's not the same thing. America wasn't a country when our ancestors stole it from the Indian tribes. Today we are a country and the illegal immigrants are breaking our country's laws. Their countries of origin have immigration laws that they enforce. Just because our country has let our enforcement slide does not mean that our laws should be broken. It certainly doesn't mean that they are entitled to what our citizens have just because they are here.


I suspect that if the Native Americans had no laws before the arrival of our ancestors, they would not have survived. The fact that their laws were different from the newcomers' laws shouldn't invalidate them, should it? That sounds like the "we're better, we're smarter, we're richer, our religion is superior" argument they used to justify what they did. And no, I'm not Native American. I really cannot see any difference between our ancestors' invasion of this country and any other illegal immigrants. Why were our ancestors justified to take away the lands and ways of the Native Americans and relegate them to reservations, or treat Japanese-Americans the way we did during WWII? Who do we think we are?


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## Lukelucy (Nov 19, 2011)

Sam,
I completely agree with you. Native Americans had great respect for their land. We do not. Pollution, etc.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> If only it were a "few hundred dollars" a month - they would not. In reality it is much, much more.


Tell me more about the much, much more. What have you seen with your own eyes, as opposed to rampant rumor, that has convinced you that the poor are any more immoral than any other segment of the population? It sounds to me as if working people (which I was one of for many years) think people on welfare have life so much better and easier that they're envious. You're buying into the myth that that segment of the population, in its entirety, is scamming the rest of us. That is not what I saw during my 23 years partly as a caseworker and more so in quality control. I will grant you that those cases of fraud that are uncovered are sensationalized to the max because human beings love to have others to look down upon, but I will defend to the death those welfare recipients who play by the rules, live an extremely frugal and difficult life due to circumstances beyond their control, recover down the road and return to a more traditionally productive way of life. I've seen many pay forward every bit of help they received. It's unfair and untrue to paint all with the same paintbrush.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

freesia792 said:


> That is a wonderful post. VERY true! It's exactly the point. All the programs for doing nothing is making hard work "out of style". Eventually, things will break down to the point more people are on assistance than the working can afford. Like having half a country of teenagers...I want, I want. The government keeps giving just to shut them up! Assistance is important for people to get them through hard times. No one objects to that. People object when it becomes considered by those who abuse it as "a living."


Several of your statements here are hateful, unjustified, and untrue,


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

damemary said:


> I haven't heard of septic tanks in years. Sounds a little behind the times to me.


A lot of homes in rural areas and areas just outside city limits will have septic tanks. I live in a subdivision that is not apart of the city sewer system, therefore need a septic tank.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Can elephants swim? Maybe she could just hold her trunk out of the water.


Can donkeys float?


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> I suspect that if the Native Americans had no laws before the arrival of our ancestors, they would not have survived. The fact that their laws were different from the newcomers' laws shouldn't invalidate them, should it? That sounds like the "we're better, we're smarter, we're richer, our religion is superior" argument they used to justify what they did. And no, I'm not Native American. I really cannot see any difference between our ancestors' invasion of this country and any other illegal immigrants. Why were our ancestors justified to take away the lands and ways of the Native Americans and relegate them to reservations, or treat Japanese-Americans the way we did during WWII? Who do we think we are?


Are you saying we should do away with the US of A and have an immigration free for all, because of our history? Our ancestors weren't justified in stealing the land. They just had that superior attitude you described above and decided the Indian tribes were the inferior people. In many cases that attitude was towards them, so when they came to the new land and found it populated, they expressed that behavior towards the natives.


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## freesia792 (Feb 24, 2012)

I don't understand. You either quit reading my response at some random point, or, your part of the problem and I've offended you for pointing it out. hmmmm



SAMkewel said:


> Several of your statements here are hateful, unjustified, and untrue,


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

[
It is not just about protecting the rich. It is about singling out one portion of the population, in this case the rich, to have them do something (pay more in taxes) that the other members of the country will not be required to do.[/quote]

If your income is in a certain bracket, then yes, you will pay more. You are not being punished for "being rich" - you are paying according the tax rules. Why do the rich need protection?


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

freesia792 said:


> That is a wonderful post. VERY true! It's exactly the point. All the programs for doing nothing is making hard work "out of style". Eventually, things will break down to the point more people are on assistance than the working can afford. Like having half a country of teenagers...I want, I want. The government keeps giving just to shut them up! Assistance is important for people to get them through hard times. No one objects to that. People object when it becomes considered by those who abuse it as "a living."


All these teenagers saying I want, I want"....I wonder where they learned that. What does the government give them to shut them up? I guess I missed that part.


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## Lukelucy (Nov 19, 2011)

I had a roommate once and she was not working and collecting funds from the gov't so that she could do her "art". Made me sick. No one knew what she was doing. She was as lazy as they come and lived as well as she could without a qualm. Bought the best of the best at the grocery store.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

An excerpt from The Nation magazine. I did not copy it all here.

The last paragraph is most telling.

Immigration Is Not a Domestic Issue
Whatever reform passes in Washington, poverty in the global South will continue to drive migration.

Gary Younge February 6, 2013 | This article appeared in the February 25, 2013 edition of The Nation.

When prosecutors investigated the company in 2004, they discovered that a third of its employees were undocumented. Charges were filed. Many of the workers were deported. The managers were allowed to carry on working while under house arrest for six months. Pushed by economics, repelled by politics, the poor were repatriated while the wealthy reaped profits: the contradictions and paradoxes of Americas response to immigration laid bare.

Almost a decade later, with immigration reform facing its brightest prospects in a decade, precious little seems to have been learned (beyond that immigrant-bashing is an electoral liability for Republicans in a nation where Latinos are the fastest-growing group). A new plan hatched by a bipartisan group of senators seeks to strengthen borders before providing a pathway to citizenship for the roughly 11 million undocumented people and making it easier for skilled workers to get visas. President Obama put forward a similar plan but argued that citizenship should not be contingent on tighter borders. Compared with the nothing that was being done on the federal level before and the heinous attacks on Latino communities in states like Arizona and Alabama, these are great steps forward.

Obamas plan is better. Both are flawed. They seek to address the issue of immigrationlegal and otherwiseas a domestic problem subject to bureaucratic remedy. But mass immigration is a global issue fueled primarily by economic inequality, war and environmental calamity. There is no meaningful immigration policy the United States can pursue that does not engage with foreign policy, international trade and climate change. Anything else is just a Band-Aid on a gaping wound. In short, there is no sensible conversation you can have about immigration in the West that doesnt start with the fact that half the world lives on less than $2.50 a day, mostly in the global South.

Take Mexico. The insistence on strengthening the border comes at a time when illegal border crossings are at their lowest level since Nixon. We have reached the point where the balance between Mexicans moving to the United States and those returning to Mexico is essentially zero, Jeffrey Passel, a senior demographer at the Pew Hispanic Center, told The Washington Post. The primary reason for this slowdown is not heightened security but the recession. Fewer jobs, lower wages, fewer hoursMexicans didnt come to America because they think its a better country; they came to work. The primary achievement of the extra border guards was a massive inflation in the price that the smugglers charged to avoid them.

They could not work at home in no small part because the laissez-faire policies of successive Mexican governments have compounded the inequalities in their country. But Mexicos poverty is also intrinsically linked to US trade policies in general and NAFTA in particular. Thanks to government subsidies lavished on US agribusinessas well as its large scale and its use of heavy machinery and irrigationsmall Mexican farmers simply could not compete with the US exports that flooded their country after NAFTA was enacted. Within six years, US exports of corn to Mexico had increased eighteenfold and accounted for a quarter of all corn consumed in Mexico; jobs on farms and smallholdings disappeared. Having loosened the movement of capital, the US government tightened the movement of people, in effect criminalizing migrant communities. Machines that make profits have more rights than people who need food. What is true for Mexico is no less true, on a different scale, for Haiti, El Salvador or anywhere in the global Southand thats before we get to the flooding caused by climate change and those who flee from the terror of our wars.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Lukelucy said:


> I had a roommate once and she was not working and collecting funds from the gov't so that she could do her "art". Made me sick. No one knew what she was doing. She was as lazy as they come and lived as well as she could without a qualm. Bought the best of the best at the grocery store.


Why is this relevant?


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

And to this why not add Universal Life. Lets just let the government live our lives and we wouldn't need to do anything. 
Isn't that what it's all about?



alcameron said:


> And to this add universal healthcare.


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## Lukelucy (Nov 19, 2011)

It is relevant because I am trying to say there are people out there enjoying Welfare and whatever funds they can find from the government.


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

So you'd prefer something more along the lines of ocare? Simple and to the point is often best. No flourishes, no refer to 5.016.78.934 of WKW and most important, something that a fifth grader (because that's where our education has led many of our children) can understand.



SAMkewel said:


> I think this and your prior post are gross oversimplifications.


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

And Pleze no more community organizer types. They promote the us and thems mentality and have nothing in the way of qualifications for the job. Let's find someone who understands math and its relevance to the goings on in the country and promotes sound judgement when spending our tax dollars. And perhaps someone who doesn't mind spending time in DC and is familiar with the idea of a days pay for a days work.

And certainly no one who lied about Benghazi when talking down to questioning.



soloweygirl said:


> Nothing will ever get done with the it's us vs. them attitude running rampant in Washington. I have no hopes for anything to happen now, but in 2014 we have a chance to make some changes. I just hope they are the correct ones for the country.


----------



## Lukelucy (Nov 19, 2011)

I cannot wait for changes in our administration. Can't come soon enough. Hope that permanent damages are not catastrophic.


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## quiltnqueen (Jul 14, 2011)

CarolfromTX said:


> So you think the rich get that way by stealing from the poor? Really? That statement lacks logic, among other things. The poor get poorer by making a long series of bad decisions. The rich get richer thru work and smart investment of their money. Personally, I never took a nickle from a poor person, but I did pay attention in school, wait to have a child until AFTER I was married, stay married, and live within my means. And my reward is to be vilified by the liberals.


Wise words. I get so tired of people thinking that they deserve money they didn't earn!


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

freesia792 said:


> I don't understand. You either quit reading my response at some random point, or, your part of the problem and I've offended you for pointing it out. hmmmm


You're the second person to make that accusation. Are you starting a club?


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> All these teenagers saying I want, I want"....I wonder where they learned that. What does the government give them to shut them up? I guess I missed that part.


I suspect they learned the "I want, I want," from wealthy parents who could afford to give, give, give material goods in lieu of values.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Lukelucy said:


> It is relevant because I am trying to say there are people out there enjoying Welfare and whatever funds they can find from the government.


You're absolutely right, there are people people out there enjoying welfare and whatever funds they can find from the government. There are people out there doing all kinds of horrible things, and they come from all walks of life. These people are a small percentage of the population, so why do they rate so much more attention than the others in the same circumstances who do NOT do these things? And why do the majority of those in the same or similar life circumstances who are doing the right thing get lumped in with the minority?


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Are you saying we should do away with the US of A and have an immigration free for all, because of our history? Our ancestors weren't justified in stealing the land. They just had that superior attitude you described above and decided the Indian tribes were the inferior people. In many cases that attitude was towards them, so when they came to the new land and found it populated, they expressed that behavior towards the natives.


That's quite a leap. Would you please point out exactly where I said that? And is it excusable to do unto others that which someone else did unto you when you know it's wrong? I don't think so; that's immature to say the least.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

RUKnitting said:


> And to this why not add Universal Life. Lets just let the government live our lives and we wouldn't need to do anything.
> Isn't that what it's all about?


It's certainly the last choice I would want to make.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

RUKnitting said:


> So you'd prefer something more along the lines of ocare? Simple and to the point is often best. No flourishes, no refer to 5.016.78.934 of WKW and most important, something that a fifth grader (because that's where our education has led many of our children) can understand.


Wow, another leap. What causes people to make leaps from one extreme to another? Don't you think about anything in between the extremes?


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## Lukelucy (Nov 19, 2011)

There is nothing worse than a spoiled child. And there are too many of them these days.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> Wow, another leap. What causes people to make leaps from one extreme to another? Don't you think about anything in between the extremes?


That's why they are called right wing extremists , sam


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

momeee said:


> With each revelation, I keep hoping to hear the word impeachment or treason...what will it take? Clinton lied, but was his lie to the grand jury as serious and damaging as the multitude of lies (and other decisions, negligence) o has perpetrated?


Can you please elaborate on the "multitude of lies" by Obama, momee?


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## Lukelucy (Nov 19, 2011)

Obama lies with every word and breath the makes/takes. Too many to enumerate. Just listen to him and know he is lying.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

momeee said:


> How correct you are. I wish all those who hate our policies, government, democracy, etc. would go elsewhere and try to make a world that would satisfy them. It couldn't happen. Those who emigrate to the US can not be allowed to attempt to bring it down.
> 
> Being critical, voicing those thoughts are rights we are given and I respect that, but anti-American actions deserve to be curtailed. Political correctness has worn out its welcome.


Well, momee, since you have done nothing but complain about our government in this thread, should be packing your bags.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Lukelucy said:


> It is relevant because I am trying to say there are people out there enjoying Welfare and whatever funds they can find from the government.


One person that you had personal knowledge of and did you report her? Because if you did not, then not only did you enable her but you were an accessory. So don't complain.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

RUKnitting said:


> And to this why not add Universal Life. Lets just let the government live our lives and we wouldn't need to do anything.
> Isn't that what it's all about?


I, for one, would like universal life. It's not about the govt controlling our lives but about everyone having access to decent healthcare at an affordable price.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

RUKnitting said:


> So you'd prefer something more along the lines of ocare? Simple and to the point is often best. No flourishes, no refer to 5.016.78.934 of WKW and most important, something that a fifth grader (because that's where our education has led many of our children) can understand.


Well, children having a 5th grade education level is okay because they are children, adults not so much. Does the shoe fit?


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

RUKnitting said:


> And Pleze no more community organizer types. They promote the us and thems mentality and have nothing in the way of qualifications for the job. Let's find someone who understands math and its relevance to the goings on in the country and promotes sound judgement when spending our tax dollars. And perhaps someone who doesn't mind spending time in DC and is familiar with the idea of a days pay for a days work.
> 
> And certainly no one who lied about Benghazi when talking down to questioning.


I agree - it is about time that Congress spends some time in DC and gets down to work to solve some issues.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Lukelucy said:


> There is nothing worse than a spoiled child. And there are too many of them these days.


Well, who raised them?


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Can you please elaborate on the "multitude of lies" by Obama, momee?


Nope - they can't. They wish they could but it's just not there.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Lukelucy said:


> Obama lies with every word and breath the makes/takes. Too many to enumerate. Just listen to him and know he is lying.


Example please - because that is a broad brush you are using.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Well, momee, since you have done nothing but complain about our government in this thread, should be packing your bags.


Can we hope?


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> Wow, another leap. What causes people to make leaps from one extreme to another? Don't you think about anything in between the extremes?


Extremists abound!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> I agree - it is about time that Congress spends some time in DC and gets down to work to solve some issues.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Lukelucy said:


> Obama lies with every word and breath the makes/takes. Too many to enumerate. Just listen to him and know he is lying.


Typical response, but no merit to it at all.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Lukelucy said:


> There is nothing worse than a spoiled child. And there are too many of them these days.


I think a spoiled adult is far worse than a spoiled child; he/she is far bigger and more dangerous.


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## freesia792 (Feb 24, 2012)

Lukelucy said:


> Obama lies with every word and breath the makes/takes. Too many to enumerate. Just listen to him and know he is lying.


 :-D Be fair Lukelucy - Obama doesn't lie, unless his mouth is open. 
I too, am waiting for impeachment. 
What I really hate about being lied to, is the implication that I'm stupid enough to believe the lie.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

freesia792 said:


> :-D Be fair Lukelucy - Obama doesn't lie, unless his mouth is open.
> I too, am waiting for impeachment.
> What I really hate about being lied to, is the implication that I'm stupid enough to believe the lie.


Oh, oh. Representative from Bachmann's district is on the forum!


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## freesia792 (Feb 24, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Oh, oh. Representative from Bachmann's district is on the forum!


 :lol: :-D


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

freesia792 said:


> :-D Be fair Lukelucy - Obama doesn't lie, unless his mouth is open.
> I too, am waiting for impeachment.
> What I really hate about being lied to, is the implication that I'm stupid enough to believe the lie.


Impeachment? On what grounds? None of you have come up with anything specific.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

GWPlver said:


> One person that you had personal knowledge of and did you report her? Because if you did not, then not only did you enable her but you were an accessory. So don't complain.


 :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think it's always hard to hear how stupid people think we are.



freesia792 said:


> :-D Be fair Lukelucy - Obama doesn't lie, unless his mouth is open.
> I too, am waiting for impeachment.
> What I really hate about being lied to, is the implication that I'm stupid enough to believe the lie.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Oh, oh. Representative from Bachmann's district is on the forum!


I wouldn't admit that. LOL Bachmann.......


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Back to politics, huh? Ya'll must be getting bored now. The election is over and you're beating a dead horse to death again. But take heart, you know you're speaking for the minority, or so it appears from the way the election came out.


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## freesia792 (Feb 24, 2012)

I have to choose? Oh gosh....there are so many really good reasons... Benghazi, Fast & Furious, and the Boston Marathon, etc.

Follow the link - click it. If you recognize this , would you please put it up in obama's teleprompter? Thank you. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution If you follow the article a ways down the page, there's a tiny blurb about:
Oath of office
The final clause creates the presidential oath to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution.



BrattyPatty said:


> Impeachment? On what grounds?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> Back to politics, huh? Ya'll must be getting bored now. The election is over and you're beating a dead horse to death again. But take heart, you know you're speaking for the minority, or so it appears from the way the election came out.


They can't get over the fact that Obama won. Same ol same ol...............

Guess you couldn't come up with anything on your own, freesia. What you posted is very old.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Nobody died over Watergate, says she. How many died in Iraq and Afghanistan--wars predicated on Cheney and Bush lies?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Way too many! Interesting how all of that is coming back to bite them in the pants.


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

Does the name Penny Pritzker mean anything to the Lib Knitters? If not shouldn't it? What do you think of this great citizen of our country and how she took advantage of the middle class?


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

Many of our students graduate from the wonderful public education reading at the 5th grade level if they are lucky enough. Most newspapers are written at the 5th grade level.

And no the shoe does not fit me. Most likely I can read and understand anything you wish to throw at me. And evaluate it for validity.



GWPlver said:


> Well, children having a 5th grade education level is okay because they are children, adults not so much. Does the shoe fit?


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

Now the ball is rolling.



freesia792 said:


> I have to choose? Oh gosh....there are so many really good reasons... Benghazi, Fast & Furious, and the Boston Marathon, etc.
> 
> Follow the link - click it. If you recognize this , would you please put it up in obama's teleprompter? Thank you.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution If you follow the article a ways down the page, there's a tiny blurb about:
> ...


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Lukelucy wrote:
Obama lies with every word and breath the makes/takes. Too many to enumerate. Just listen to him and know he is lying.


GWPlver said:


> Example please - because that is a broad brush you are using.


LIST OF OBAMA LIES 2012 - UPDATED - OBAMA LAUNDRY LIST OF LIES
CROP FAILURE (OBAMA LIES WHEN HE SAYS PAUL RYAN IS BLOCKING DROUGHT RELIEF)
Source:NationalReview
SO IT BEGINS: OBAMA LIES, CLAIMS ROMNEY-RYAN WILL RAISE YOUR TAXES
Source: Breitbart.com, August 12, 2012

Barack Obama has been proven by more than one fact checking organization to be a habitual liar.
I am told that Governor Romneys new running mate, Paul Ryan, might be around Iowa the next few days, he said while in Council Bluffs, Iowa. He is one of the leaders of Congress standing in the way. So if you happen to see Congressman Ryan, tell him how important this farm bill is to Iowa and our rural communities.
House passed bill on August 2, 2012 (Paul Ryan voted yes)
The American automobile industry has come roaring backSo now I want to say what we did with the auto industry, we can do it in manufacturing across America. Lets make sure advanced, high-tech manufacturing jobs take root here, not in China. And that means supporting investment here. Governor Romney  invested in companies that were called pioneers of outsourcing. I dont want to outsource. I want to insource.
Forbes- Outsourcer-In-Chief: Obama Of General Motors
You Didnt Build that
A few examples

While writing the previous piece where Washington Posts The Fact Checker gave Barack Obama four Pinocchios on a statement he made on April 30, 2012, I clicked over to PolitiFact and took a look at the Obama File they keep where they have three pages of statements made by Barack Obama that were rated false statements.

Obama- If the Supreme Court throws out the federal health care law, it would be an unprecedented, extraordinary step of overturning a law that was passed by a strong majority of a democratically elected Congress.
Truth-O-Meter rating: False
(PolitiFact- Slim majority, not unprecedented)

Obama- For the first time since 1990, American manufacturers are creating new jobs.
Truth-O-Meter rating: False

Obama- Preventive care  saves money, for families, for businesses, for government, for everybody.
Truth-O-Meter rating: False
(PolitiFact- Wrong in 2009, and wrong today)

Obama- Thirty million Americans, including a lot of people in Florida, are going to be able to get healthcare next year because of that law.
Truth-O-Meter rating: False

Obama- I made a bunch of these promises during the campaign.  Weve got about 60 percent done in three years.
Truth-O-Meter rating: False
(PolitiFact- In the Works does not equal done)

Obama Admin.- Under President Barack Obama, the United States has doubled our exports.
Truth-O-Meter rating: False

Obama Admin.- The presidents proposed budget will help reduce the deficit by $400 billion over the next decade to the lowest level since Dwight Eisenhower was president.
Truth-O-Meter rating: False 
(PolitiFact-A mangled reference to a prior talking point)

Obama- Under the White Houses budget proposal, we will not be adding more to the national debt by the middle of the decade.
Truth-O-Meter rating: False
(PolitiFact-Revenue would equal outlays, but he ignores growing interest on the debt)

Obama- Twelve judges have thrown out legal challenges to the health care law because they rejected the notion that the health care law was unconstitutional.
Truth-O-Meter rating: False
(PolitiFact-Score two to two on judges decisions on constitionality)

Obama- I didnt raise taxes once.
Truth-O-Meter rating: False
(PolitiFact-Weve tracked a few increases)

Obama- When President Franklin D. Roosevelt started Social Security, it only affected widows and orphans, and when Medicare began, it was a small program.
Truth-O-Meter rating: False
(PolitiFact-A grain of truth in the big picture, far off on the details)

Obama- The Bush administration had been giving (auto companies) billions of dollars and just asking nothing in return.
Truth-O-Meter rating: False

Obama- The vast majority of the money I got was from small donors all across the country.
Truth-O-Meter rating: False
(PolitiFact-Big donors bankrolled much of Obamas campaign)

Obama- Weve excluded lobbyists from policymaking jobs.
Truth-O-Meter rating: False
(PolitiFact-We found at least four)

Obama- When Obama was interviewed by American reporters in Asia, Not one of them asked me about Asia. Not one of them asked me about the economy.
Truth-O-Meter rating: False
(PolitiFact-More than one did)

Obama- Insurers delayed an Illinois mans treatment, and he died because of it.
Truth-O-Meter rating: False 
(Insurers decision was reversed and man lived three more years)

Obama- Health reform will give every American the same opportunity to buy health insurance the way members of Congress do.
Truth-O-Meter rating: False

Obama- Preventive care saves money.
Truth-O-Meter rating: False
(PolitiFact-Covering preventive care for everyone is a net cost)

Obama- (No earmarks in spending bill)
Truth-O-Meter rating: False

That was only from page one of Obamas false statement PolitiFact files.

(Note- Skipped one from page one because while PolitiFact rated it as false it was because Obama misspoke and quoted the wrong time frame, so I dont count that as an outright lie to the American people, just sloppy.)

Page two is here and page three is here.

Noteworthy- Those three pages do not include the five instances where Obama was ruled worse than false but were called pants on fire false.

The another three pages of statements that are listed as mostly false on the Truth-O-Meter.

Mostly false statements by Obama or his administration- Page one here, page two here and page three here.

All those listed above are from one fact checking organization, PolitiFact, which leaves one to wonder how many lies Obama has told in total since organizations often fact check different statements.
Barack Obama has been proven by more than one fact checking organization to be a habitual liar.
Lies During Third Year
I will walk on that picket line with you, if workers are denied the right to bargain.
Youtube
In his 2012 State of the Union Address, President Obama said that American oil production is the highest that its been in eight years.
www.breitbart.com
Ive done more for Israels security than any President ever
Obama aided Islamic Extremists take over of Egypt/ Libya  Weapons pour into Gaza
Virtually every Senate Republican voted against the tax cut last week
Examiner
Every idea that weve put forward are ones that traditionally have been supported by Democrats and Republicans alike.
Like Raising taxes?
Obama met highly qualified out of work teacher Robert Baroz
He wasnt out of work and Obama never met him.
GOP Responsible for Obama Jobs Bill Not Passing
Dems Rejected Jobs Bill
You have 80 percent of the American people who support a balanced approach. Eighty percent of the American people support an approach that includes revenues and includes cuts. So the notion that somehow the American people arent sold is not the problem
Gallup Poll: Only 69%
These are obligations that the United States has taken on in the past. Congress has run up the credit card, and we now have an obligation to pay our bills.
Looks like its been incurred mostly in the years of Obama
Jobs Bill Paid for
Seems not so much Paid for
Then youve got their(GOP)which is dirtier air, dirtier water, less people with health insurance
Barack Obama, campaiging in Asheville, NC, 10/17/11
I cannot guarantee that those checks go out on August 3rd if we havent resolved this issue. Because there may simply not be the money in the coffers to do it.
American.com
USA producing more oil than ever before
Petroleum Insights
Fence between US and Mexico is Practically Complete
Department of Homeland Security says 5%
Rich doesnt pay their fair share.
National Taxpayers Union
Mitt Romney would deny gay people the right to adopt children. 
Cnn Interview
Lies During Second Year
Obama claimed the SCOTUS decision in Citizens United v. FEC, open[ed] the floodgates for special interests  including foreign corporations  to spend without limit in our elections.
nationalreview.com
No signing statements to nullify or undermine congressional instructions as enacted into law
Obama Lies to Keep Czars
No boots on the ground Libya
Anyone that has worked with the AC-130 gunship can tell you, you need spotters to let aircraft know where the targets are. Usually it is Special Forces, Rangers etc trained for this mission. Its CIA Agents in Libya on the ground
Reform will also rein in the abuse and excess that nearly brought down our financial system. It will finally bring transparency to the kinds of complex, risky transactions that helped trigger the financial crisis.
Obama Lies About Financial Reform Bill
All Americans WILL BE were, surprised, disappointed and angry about lockerbie bomber
Obama Memo
I will not rest until the BP Oil Spill stops
Obamas Schedule
The health care bill will not increase the deficit by one dime.
Campaign and Presidency
If you like the health care plan you have you can keep it
TownHall
Under our plan, no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions, and federal conscience laws will remain in place.
U.S. Capitol, Washington, D.C., September 9, 2009.
ObamaCare Fee is not a new tax
Obama denies healthcare is a new tax on all Americans
We have run out of places in the US to drill for oil.
Obamas oval office speech in June 2010
Now suddenly if you dont have your papers and you took your kid out to get ice cream, you can be harassed, thats something that could potentially happen.
Arizona Immigration Law
Doctors choose amputation because they get better compensation. Greedy Doctors taking out tonsils for more money.
Claims never documented

The Health Care Package will pay for itself
Time
Republicans dont have a single idea thats different from George Bushs ideas  not one.
Hmm Immigration?

We shouldnt Mandate the purchase of health care
Democratic Debate Lies
Obama says hell save average family $8,000 in gas
Video Proof
I am immediately instituting PayGo Pay as you go
Said during a speech immediately after the Trillion Dollar Shovel Ready bill.
I got the Message from Massachusetts
Daily Bail
Lies During First Year
We began by passing a Recovery Act that has already saved or created over 150,000 jobs.  caught cooking the books and now changed to jobs supported versus created/saved
AP fact Checker
Number one, we inherited a $1.3 trillion deficit.  That wasnt me.  Congress, under Democratic control in 2007 and 2008, controlled the purse strings that led to the deficit Obama inherited.Obama supported the emergency bailout package in Bushs final months  a package Democratic leaders wanted to make bigger.
AP fact Checker
Collective salvation
Obama calls himself a Christian
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
Obama Inauguration. 20 Jan 2009
Cut Deficit in Half by end of first term
Associated Press Video
Health Care deals will be covered on C-span
Obama Lies
As President I will recognize the Armenian Genocide
ABC

Recovery Act will save or create jobs
ABC News
Unemployment rate will be 8.5% without stimulus.
Obama Lies
No Earmarks in the $787 Billion Stimulus
CNN
I happen to be a proponent of a single payer universal health care plan
Specator.Org
We have launched a housing plan that will help responsible families facing the threat of foreclosure lower their monthly payments and refinance their mortgages.
Obama Lies
I am not somebody who promotes same-sex marriage.
NPR
Guantanamo bay to be closed within a year
Council on Foreign Relations.
Wont Raise taxes on those making less than 250,000 per year.
Businessweek: Obama Agnostic on taxes
List of Tax Promise Violations
2008 Campaign Lies
I will walk the picket line with you, if workers are denied the right to bargain 
Youtube
No more wiretapping of citizens
Youtube
Mr. Ayers as a guy who lives in my neighborhood, but not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a regular basis.
News Busters
I had a uncle who was one of the, who was part of the first American troops to go into Auschwitz and liberate the concentration camps
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
Obama campaign would accept public funding
ABC
Minimum Wage will increase to $9.50/hr
A Socialist
Ann Dunham spent the months before her death in 1995 fighting with insurance companies that sought to deny her the coverage she needed to pay for treatment.
Mounting Heath Care Lies
Didnt know Jeremiah Wright was Radical
Dreams of My Father  A radical Socialist.
Would have the most transparent administration in History
Cato Institute
We will go through our federal budget  page by page, line by line  eliminating those programs we dont need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way.
Boston Globe
I have visited all 57 states.
Snopes
Ill get rid of earmarks
Source: Any bill passed during presidency
When a bill lands on my Desk, The American people will have 5 days to review it before I sign it.
Campaign Speech
My father served in World War II.
The Videos and the Facts
Have troops out of Iraq by March 31, 2009
News Video
Seniors Making less than 50,000 will not have to pay taxes
YouTube
Would not vote for any bill supporting troop funding without a firm withdrawal commitment from the Bush Administration.
He has done nothing but continue the Bush admins strategy and to explain how the surges total failure has now become his greatest achievement.
Present Votes Are Common In Illinois
NPR
I Won Michigan
Huffington Post
I won Nevada
The Nation
I dont Have Lobbyists
US News
My Campaign Had Nothing To Do With The 1984 Ad
Crooks and Liars
I Have Always Been Against Iraq
Washington Post
My Wife Didnt Mean What She Said About Pride In Country
CNN
Barack was never an ACORN trainer and never worked for ACORN in any other capacity.
Obama Campaign Video
I Barely Know Rezko
Sun Times
My Church Is Like Any Other Christian Church
ABC News
year	event
1995	In his memoir, Obama writes of one of the watershed moments of his racial awareness  time and again in remarkable detail. It is a story about a Life magazine article that influenced him. The report was about a black man who tried to bleach his skin white. When Obama was told no such article could be found in Life, he says it might have been Ebony.He is 9 years old, living in Indonesia, where he and his mother moved with her new husband, Lolo Soetoro, a few years earlier. One day while visiting his mother, who was working at the U.S. Embassy in Jakarta, Obama passed time by looking through several issues of Life magazine. He came across an article that he later would describe as feeling like an ambush attack.The article included photos of a black man who had destroyed his skin with powerful chemical lighteners that promised to make him white. Instead, the chemicals had peeled off much of his skin, leaving him sad and scarred, Obama recalled.I imagine other black children, then and now, undergoing similar moments of revelation, Obama wrote of the magazine photos in Dreams.Yet no such photo exists, according to historians at the magazine. No such photos, no such article. When asked about the discrepancy, Obama said in a recent interview, It might have been an Ebony or it might have been  who knows what it was? (At the request of the Tribune, archivists at Ebony searched their catalogue of past articles, none of which matched what Obama recalled.)In fact, it is surprising, based on interviews with more than two dozen people who knew Obama during his nearly four years in Indonesia, that it would take a photograph in a magazine to make him conscious of the fact that some people might treat him differently in part because of the color of his skin.

2003	Barack Obama in 2003, talking to the AFL/CIO:I happen to be a proponent of single-payer universal healthcare coverage. Thats what Id like to see.In January,

2008, Obama claimed in a nationally televised debate:I never said that we should try to go ahead and get single-payer.

2004	In Obamas famous DNC Convention speech, Obama says, My father was a foreign student, born and raised in a small village in Kenya. He grew up herding goats, went to school in a tin-roof shack. His father  my grandfather  was a cook, a domestic servant to the British.
Kezia, Obama Sr.s first wife tells a story that puts Obamas account to lie.
Kezia said: In 1955 Obama Sr. was 18 and working in an office in Nairobi, when he took Kezia from her family at the age of 16. Her father was furious. He did not like Obama. My father and brothers came to Nairobi to bring me back. They said I had to go back to school. When I wouldnt, they said they would never speak to me again. Barack was also worried about what his father would think because I was so young, but he gave us his approval. Obamas father (often described as poor) sent my mother and father 14 cows for my dowry.

Just how can a cook, a domestic servant to the British, provide a dowry of 14 cattle for Seniors first wife? Also, Obamas father had been working in a Nairobi office since the age 16, not herding goats.
As an aside, can you imagine if a Republican was running for president and it came out that his father had bought his first wife for 14 cows???!!!Just wow!!

2004	Responding to questions about his intent to serve out the six year senate term, Obama says, in this video, (link removed), that he will not run for the presidency in four years.Notice: The video has disappeared. Using WayBackMachine, I found two links  both played empty videos  a lot of stuff is being scrubbed from the web.Here is what he said in the video:I think Ive been very clear. Ah-ah-mumble-mumble, theres a presidential election in four years. Im not running for president in four years.Here is a backup story  during a meeting with reporters at his Illinois campaign headquarters after his election to the U.S. Senate, he ridiculed as a silly question whether he would run for president or vice president before his term ends in 2011. Ive never worked in Washington, he said. I can unequivocally say I will not be running for national office in four years, and my entire focus is making sure that Im the best possible senator on behalf of the people of Illinois.
2004	On July 28th, the day after his speech at the Democratic convention catapulted him into the national spotlight, Barack Obama told a group of reporters in Boston that the United States had an absolute obligation to remain in Iraq long enough to make it a success.The failure of the Iraqi state would be a disaster, he said at a lunch sponsored by the Christian Science Monitor, according to an audiotape of the session. It would dishonor the 900-plus men and women who have already died. . . . It would be a betrayal of the promise that we made to the Iraqi people, and it would be hugely destabilizing from a national security perspective.In late winter, 2008, on the campaign trail, Obama says he wants to bring the troops home yesterday  you decide  was he lying then or is he lying now?

2006	On the January 22nd edition of Meet the Press, Tim Russert and Obama had the following exchange:Russert: When we talked back in November of 04 after your election, I said, Theres been enormous speculation about your political future. Will you serve your six-year term as United States senator from Illinois?Obama: I will serve out my full six-year term. You know, Tim, if you get asked enough, sooner or later you get weary and you start looking for new ways of saying things. But my thinking has not changed.Russert: So you will not run for president or vice president in 2008?Obama: I will not.

2007	As another example, consider Obamas stirring tale for the Selma audience about how he had been conceived by his parents, Barack Obama Sr. and Ann Dunham, because they had been inspired by the fervor following the Bloody Sunday voting rights demonstration that was commemorated March 4. There was something stirring across the country because of what happened in Selma, Alabama, he said, because some folks are willing to march across a bridge. So they got together and Barack Obama Jr. was born. So dont tell me I dont have a claim on Selma, Alabama. Dont tell me Im not coming home to Selma, AlabamaObama was born in 1961, and the Selma march occurred four years later, in 1965. The New York Times reported that when the senator was asked about the discrepancy later that day, he clarified: I meant the whole civil rights movement.
2007	Obama went on to tell his audience that the Kennedys  Jack and Bobby  decided to do an airlift. They would bring some young Africans over so that they could be educated and learn all about America. His grandfather heard that call and sent his son, Barack Obama, Sr., to America.The problem with that scenario is that, having been born in August 1961, the future senator was not conceived until sometime in November 1960. So, if his African grandfather heard words that sent a shout across oceans, inspiring him to send his goat-herder son to America, it was not Democrat Jack Kennedy he heard, or his brother Bobby, it was Republican President Dwight D. Eisenhower.Actually, Senior was awarded an American sponsored scholarship in economics to the University of Hawaii at Manoa. He was selected by a former Kenyan cabinet minister, the late Tom Mboya, who was earmarked as the successor to Jomo Kenyatta, Kenyas first prime minister.The presumption was that Senior would return to Africa and use his Western-honed skills in a new Kenya.

2007	On January 24, the Obama campaign released a statement, saying, To be clear, Senator Obama has never been a Muslim, was not raised a Muslim, and is a committed Christian who attends the United Church of Christ in Chicagn March 14th, in a statement to The Times, the Obama campaign offered this statement to correct their previous statement, that appears to be a bold-faced lie:Obama has never been a practicing Muslim. The statement added that as a child, Obama had spent time in the neighborhoods Islamic center.And, the original statement began, To be clear So, in three months, Barracks campaign has gone from describing the U.S. presidential hopeful as never having been a Muslim and never having been raised as a Muslim to now never having been a practicing Muslim.Whats with the semantics? Statements from Obamas campaign appear to have evolved, to say the least.

2007	On March 25th, the Chicago Tribune reports that an extensive search found no basis for an episode Obama recounts about a picture he ran across in Life magazine of a black man who had tried to peel off his skin in a failed effort to use chemicals to lighten it. Obama writes that seeing that article was violent for me, an ambush attack.The Tribune continued: Yet no such Life issue exists, according to historians at the magazine. No such photos, no such article. When asked about the discrepancy, Obama said in a recent interview, It might have been an Ebony or it might have been  who knows what it was?At the request of the Tribune, archivists at Ebony searched their catalogue of past articles, none of which matched what Obama recalled.

2007	On March 27th, Obama, tells the crowd at fundraiser , I was a constitutional law professor, which means unlike the current president I actually respect the Constitution.For the record, Obama is a Senior Lecturer (on leave of absence) at the University of Chicago Law School. He has taught Constitutional Law III: Equal Protection and Substantive Due Process, Current Issues in Racism & the Law, and Voting Rights & the Democratic Process.

2007	On May 8th, Obama, caught up in the fervor of a campaign speech Tuesday, drastically overstated the Kansas tornadoes death toll, saying 10,000 had died.In case you missed it, this week, there was a tragedy in Kansas. Ten thousand people died  an entire town destroyed, the Democratic presidential candidate said in a speech to 500 people packed into a sweltering Richmond art studio for a fundraiser.The death toll was 12.

2007	On May 10th, Obama botched his facts in a speech criticizing the U.S. auto industry for investing in bigger and faster cars while foreign competitors invested in more fuel-efficient technology.Obama stated that while our fuel standards havent moved from 27.5 miles per gallon in two decades, both China and Japan have surpassed us, with Japanese cars now getting an average of 45 miles to the gallon. But Toyota, which should know, has responded, No car maker gets 45 mpg; ours is closer to 30 mpg.Well, were glad to see Obamas shifting the blame from the consumer to the automakers. That must explain why the Illinois Senator and Presidential candidate owns a HEMI-powered V8 Chrysler 300C.Obviously its Chryslers fault Obama bought a big 5.7-liter engine from them  he just didnt have a choice.
2007	During his 12 years in politics, Sen. Barack Obama has received nearly three times more campaign cash from indicted businessman, Tony Rezko and his associates, than he has publicly acknowledged, the Chicago Sun-Times has found.Seven months ago, Obama told the Sun-Times his best estimate was that Rezko raised between $50,000 and $60,000″ during Obamas political career.However, Obama has collected at least $168,308 from Rezko and his circle. Additionally, Obama also has taken in an unknown amount of money from people who attended fund-raising events hosted by Rezko since the mid-1990s. Everything you ever wanted to know about Obama and Rezko.

2007	Responding to criticism of his disrespect of the flag of the United States during the National Anthem, Obama defended himself by saying My grandfather taught me how to say the Pledge of Allegiance when I was 2. He didnt even remember what he was doing on September 17th, when Obama, Hillary and Bill Richardson attended the Steak Fry of Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) in Indianola, IA.How can he possibly remember what happened when he was two years old?

2007	On October 6th, Obama accused his fellow American citizens of the indiscriminate murder of Iraqi civilians, saying, And these private (Blackwater USA) contractors, they go out and theyre spraying bullets and hitting civilians and that makes it more dangerous for our troops.Obama lies with the same ease as the Clintons and proves that he will say anything to win the nomination and election.

2007	Last fall during a nationally televised presidential debate, Obama hesitantly raised his hand and joined with most of his Democratic rivals to declare that he opposed decriminalizing marijuana. (first video).But as a candidate for the U.S. Senate four years ago, Mr. Obama told Illinois college students that he supported eliminating criminal penalties for marijuana use or possession, according to a videotape of a little noticed debate that was obtained by The Washington Times.I think we need to rethink and decriminalize our marijuana laws, Mr. Obama told an audience during a debate at Northwestern University in 2004. But Im not somebody who believes in legalization of marijuana. (second video).Asked about the two different answers, Mr. Obamas presidential campaign said he in fact has always supported decriminalizing marijuana as he answered in 2004, meaning the candidate mistakenly raised his hand during the presidential debate last fall.

2007	On the 1st of December, Obama said, Im not running because Im trying to fulfill some long-held plan.Oh, really?Iis Darmawan, 63, Obamas teacher in 1970, remembers him as an exceptionally tall and curly haired child who quickly picked up the local language and had sharp math skills. He wrote an essay titled, I Want To Become President, the teacher said.In 1971, Obamas sister Maya, has also said, There was always a joke between my mom and Barack that he would be the first black president.In 1991, David B. Wilkins , the Kirkland and Ellis professor of law, said he advised Obama to become a Supreme Court Clerk. Obama recognized the honor in pursuing that post, Wilkins said, but quickly added that he wasnt interested.He said that he wanted to write a book about his life and his father, go back to Chicago, get back into the community, and run for office there. He knew exactly what he wanted and went about getting it done, Wilkins said.In 1992, Obamas brother-in-law, Craig Robinson pulled him aside and asked about his plans. He said, I think Id like to teach at some point in time, and maybe run for public office, recalls Robinson, who assumed Senator Obama meant hed like to run for city alderman. He said no  at some point hed like to run for the U.S. Senate. And then he said, Possibly even run for President at some point. And I was like, Okay, but dont say that to my Aunt Gracie. I was protecting him from saying something that might embarrass him.In 1993, Obama began teaching at the University of Chicago Law School, where he declined to pursue a tenure-track post, hoping to save time for politics.The one thread, that remains consistent, throughout Obamas life, is his teachers, mentors and friends recollection of Obamas single-minded pursuit of high political office.

2007	On December 22nd, in a small-town café in Pleasantville, Omaha, Obama was asked a question that typically only circulates on the Internet. As he sat down to have a slice of pie with a small group of potential voters and an elderly woman asked him about being Muslim. Ive always been a Christian, the Illinois Democrat responded. I have never practiced [Islam].Note: The newspaper editors had to add the word, Islam.In his autobiography, Dreams From My Father, Obama mentions studying the Quran. He was enrolled in two Jakarta schools as a Muslim. His teacher Tine Hahiyary said that she remembered that he had studied mengaji (recitation of the Quran). Classmate Rony Amiris described Obama as being a very devout Muslim, saying, Barry was previously quite religious in Islam. Another classmate, Emirsyah Satar, now the CEO of Garuda Indonesia, was quoted as saying, He (Obama) was often in the prayer room wearing a sarong. (See Obamas Education.)Yet, on his official campaign website, Obama has posted this statement, Barack has never been a Muslim or practiced any other faith besides Christianity.Obamas grandfather was a Muslim. Obamas father was a Muslim. Obamas stepfather was a Muslim. His African relatives are Muslims. What was he for the 27 years before his alleged conversion if he wasnt a Muslim? If Obama has always been a Christian, why was he enrolled in two Jakarta schools as a Muslim, and why did he study the Quran?And note his Clintonesque defense, I have never practiced.This is Obamas biggest problem  his dissimulation.Saying, Ive always been a Christian, is a bold-faced lie.
2008	On January 22nd, the Hillary Clinton Campaign releases a video that proves that Obama lied about his position on single-payer healthcare.The video compares statements Obama made during the January 21st Democratic debate with those he made to an AFL-CIO conference in June 2003 while campaigning for the Senate. Contradicting what Obama said at the debate, the old footage shows the senator saying, I happen to be a proponent of single-payer universal healthcare coverage. Thats what Id like to see.At the debate, Obama stated: I never said that we should try to go ahead and get single-payer (healthcare).Single-payer healthcare is an euphemism for socialized medicine.
2008	February  As Sen. McCain has pointed out, Obama promised to use public funding in the general election if the Republican candidate would do so also. Well, McCain has agreed to it, but now Obama wants to back out of the deal. After all, when he made the promise, he didnt have a chance of raising more than the publics $85 million stipend. But now that he can raise $300 million, well, whats a little untruth between the waited-for one and his people? Yes, he can.
2008	On February 29th, the Obama campaign told Canadian Television (CTV) that no message was passed to the Canadian government suggesting that Obama does not mean what he says about opting out of NAFTA if it is not renegotiated.However, the Obama camp did not respond to repeated questions from CTV on reports that a conversation on this matter was held between Obamas senior economic adviser, Austan Goolsbee, and the Canadian Consulate General in Chicago.Earlier Thursday, the Obama campaign insisted that no conversations have taken place with any of its senior ranks and representatives of the Canadian government on the NAFTA issue. On Thursday night, CTV spoke with Goolsbee, but he refused to say whether he had such a conversation with the Canadian government office in Chicago. He also said he has been told to direct any questions to the campaign headquarters.CTV didnt stop there. They announced that their sources, at the highest levels of the Canadian government, reconfirmed the story to CTV and one of their primary sources provided a timeline of the discussion to CTV.

2008	On March 2nd, Obama told another whopper while criticizing Hillary Clinton.Obama said that Sen. Jay Rockefeller, a fellow Democrat from neighboring West Virginia, had read the intelligence estimate as a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee and after a brief pause said the then-chairman had voted against the war resolution.However, Rockefeller was not the chair at the time and voted in favor of the war authorization. Sen. Bob Graham of Florida was the intelligence committee chair in 2002 and voted against the resolution. Obama did not mention Grahams name in the passage.His exact words are, She didnt read the National Intelligence Estimates. Jay Rockefeller read it. But she didnt read it. I dont know what all that experience got her because I have enough experience to know that if you have a National Intelligence Estimate and the chairman of the national, um, Senate Intelligence Committee says you should read this, this is why Im voting against the war, that you should probably read it. I dont know how much experience you need for that.

2008	March 7th  Obamas courage: Contrary to a recent hyperbolic campaign ad, it wasnt courageous to give his 2002 anti-war speech, primarily because he delivered it at an anti-Iraq war rally.At the last debate, Americas former co-president claimed that it was easy to give that speech, and it wasnt a gamble for him because he wasnt in the US Senate and therefore wasnt in a position of responsibility. Obamas impassioned reply was, I was in the midst of a U.S. Senate campaign. It was a high-stakes campaign.Wrong. In reality, Obama did not announce his intentions to run for the US Senate until January 2003.

2008	March 7th  Obama say he doesnt take money from DC lobbyists and special interest PACS. This is the type of double-talk politics of the past rhetoric Obama rails against.While his claim is technically true, what he does do is take money from state lobbyists and other big money contributors who have substantial lobbyist machines in DC, like law firms and corporations.In April 2007, the LA Times quoted the Campaign Finance Institutes Stephen Weissman as pointing out that the distinction Obama makes on lobbyist money is meaningless: He gets an asterisk that says he is trying to be different.  But overall, the same wealthy interests are funding his campaign as are funding other candidates, whether or not they are lobbyists.The Capital Eye reported that [a]ccording to the Center for Responsive Politics, 14 of Obamas top 20 contributors employed lobbyists this year, spending a total of $16.2 million to influence the federal government in the first six months of 
2007.Obamas no stranger to being influenced by those campaign donations, either.

2008	March 14th  In one of the biggest lies he ever told  Obama says he vehemently condemns the words of his pastor and mentor, Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright, an official member of Obamas campaign, as a member of Obamas African American Religious Leadership Committee. What an absolute pile of crap!Obama says hes never witnessed or heard these statement before.

Double click arrow on tool bar to view. (01:30)Another load of crap! Obama has! Later, in a cover-his-ass speech, Obama even admits he heard the REvs despicable words.Obama and his wife Michelle have been listening to this man for 20 years.Obama is a bold-faced liar to now claim he had no idea the the Rev was such an anti-American, racist, hate-monger!Why hasnt Obama denounced the Rev at any time in the past 20 years?The answer, of course, is because Obama wasnt running for national office before  thats one reason.Another?Obama and Wright are of the same mind  now and then!

2008	March 14th  OK, OK! Maybe he didnt hear those words. But what about Reverend Whites words that appear in Obamas very own book, Dreams of My Father."It is this world, a world where cruise ships throw away more food in a day than most residents of Port-au-Prince see in a year, where white folks greed runs a world in need, apartheid in one hemisphere, apathy in another hemisphere Thats the world! On which hope sits!Reverend Wright spoke of Sharpsville and Hiroshima, the callousness of policy makers in the White House and in the State House. That was 13 years ago, in 1995.

2008	March 14th  Barack may not have heard Wrights rants, but did he read them?In the Trinity United Church of Christ Bulletin, January 21, 2007, on pages 9 and 10, The Pastors Page, are these words:We have lost over 3,000 boys and girls in an illegal and unjust war, and the media is on a feeding frenzy about Barack Obamas church. Where is the outrage about the 3,000 dead American military personnel and the 600,000 dead Iraqi civilians who are dead for no reason other than greed and ego? Whats goin on?"I use his words today on the third Sunday of a New Year to keep before you the painful truth of who we are and where it is we are in this racist United States of America! Whats goin on?"The reality, however, is that the entire war in Iraq and the larger war on terror have been based on lies, half-truths and distortions to serve the agenda of the United States imperialism. Where is the public outcry? Where is the outrage? Whats goin on?He may never have heard Wright actually say the U. S. was racist or some aspiring empire. But he never read it in his bulletin? Ever?

2008	On Friday, the 14th, presidential candidate Barack Obama repudiated what he called inflammatory and appalling remarks made by his Chicago pastor.Obama said he had not been present during the sermons in question.Obama told MSNBC, Had I heard them in church I would have expressed that concern directly to Rev. Wright.Please note, he says that he would have expressed concern, not repudiate, the wordsYet, in this video, the Rev places Obama in the congregation, by saying, There is a man here, who can take this country in a new direction and he points at him.In the next clip, during Wrights 2007 Christmas services, Wright rails, Barack knows what it means to be a black man living in a country and a process that is controlled by rich white men, Hillary can never know that, Hillary aint ever been called a ******!While Wright rails, Bill did us like he did Monica Lewinsky, Wrights successor, Otis Moss III, jumps into the picture frame, attempting to high-five the Rev.Barack was in Chicago for Christmas 2007 and Wright is addressing him from the pulpit. Will Barack say me didnt attend Christmas services?When Obama said, Had I heard them in church  Obama lied. He listened to Wrights sermons for 20 years.These two men, Obama and Wright, are two peas in the same pod.And before I get feedback from the loony libs, remember, it was Obama, himself, that wrote these words in Dreams of My Father,  I found solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mothers race.And, please notice the congregation in that video. They are going nuts during Wrights preaching. All of them believe this evil white man crap and eat it up. The whole bunch of them are the worst kinds of hateful racists  and remember, Wrights congregation is composed of successful, educated African-Americans.

2008	And on the same day, he admits to another whopper!Obama now says Rezko played a bigger fundraising role.Indicted Chicago businessman Antoin Tony Rezko was a more significant fundraiser for presidential candidate Barack Obamas earlier political campaigns than Obama has previously admitted. Rezko raised as much as $250,000 for the first three offices Obama sought, the senator told the Tribune on Friday.Obama also said for the first time that his private real estate transactions with Rezko involved repeated lapses of judgment. The mistake, Obama said, was not simply that Rezko was under grand jury investigation at the time of their 2005 and 2006 dealings. The mistake was he had been a contributor and somebody involved in politics, he said.And this from a guy who is running for office based upon his judgment.

2008	March 15th  Will Obama deny he was in attendance at the controversial Chicago church when the pastor referred to white arrogance and the United States of White America on July 22, 2007, accompanied by his Secret Service detail.Wright laced into Americas establishment, blaming the white arrogance of Americas Caucasian majority for the woes of the world, especially the oppression suffered by blacks. To underscore the point he refers to the country as the United States of White America. Many in the congregation, including Obama, nodded in apparent agreement as these statements were made.
http://www.freedomsenemies.com/_Obama/ObamaLies.htm

OBAMA LAUNDRY LIST OF LIES as of April 16, 2008 (76 lies and counting)

76) I am the only candidate who isnt taking a dime from Washington lobbyist - LIAR- The record shows quite the opposite. According to USA Today, Obamas campaign fundraising team includes 38 members of law firms that were paid $138 million last year to lobby the federal government, records show. Those lawyers, including 10 former federal lobbyists, have pledged to raise at least $3.5 million for the Illinois senators presidential race. Employees of their firms have given Obamas campaign $2.26 million, a USA TODAY analysis of campaign finance data shows.
Source: http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-04-15-obama_N.htm

75) I did not take money from oil companies -LIAR- It is against the law to take money from oil companies. None of your opponents take money from oil companies either.

74) I did not recall meeting Nadhmi Auchi at any time or on any occasion - LIAR - But a government witness said on Monday, during Antoin Rezkos corruption trial, that he recalled seeing Sen. Barack Obama at a party that Rezko held in 2004 to honor Nadhmi Auchi, an Iraqi-born tycoon. Two other guests at the party declared the Obamas were present at the event, which took place one week before Obama won his U.S. Senate seat. Source: http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/rezko/894559,CST-NWS-rezko15.article

according to the Chicago Tribune. 73) Here is what Obama now said he meant about comment he made about Small town PA - So I said, Well, you know, when youre bitter you turn to what you can count on,  he continued. So people they vote about guns, or they take comfort from their faith and their family and their community. And they get mad about illegal immigrants who are coming over to this country or they get frustrated about, you know, how things are changing. Thats a natural response. - LIAR - See what Obama really meant in red. It does not take high school student to understand what Obama meant - You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothings replaced themAnd they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And its not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who arent like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

72) Obama on Guns - when Obama ran for the Illinois state senate the political group, Independent Voters of Illinois (IVI), asked him if he supported a ban [on] the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns and he responded yes. - LIAR- But in what will probably be the most improbable change, the Politico reported on Saturday that Barack Obama was making a big play for gun votes in Pennsylvania. In 1998, another questionnaire administered by IL State Legislative National Political Awareness Test didnt ask about banning all handguns, but it did find that Obama wanted to ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons. Source: Fox News and Politico.com 
71) Obama distort (aka Lie) about McCain saying, McCain (he) is willing to send our troops too another war of 100 years in Iraq. Obama also denied what he said on the video - LIAR - The video proves him absolutely untruthful (a liar). 




70) I did not campaign in Florida, (so Florida vote shouldnt count) - LIAR -According to Boston Globe, HeraldTribune and other sites, Obama airs ads on Cable stations in Florida. Even with the Florida cable ads, Obama still lost.
From heraldtribune.com Obamas Florida ads bust pledge
See the Video here http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/01/obama_airs_nati.htm

l 69) I stopped smoking. I stopped smoking. I havent had a cigarette since I quit - LIAR - But in his own words, here is what Obama said. Except.last night on MSNBCs Hardball, Obama admitted that his attempt to wean himself from the vile tobacco weed had not been entirely successful. I fell off the wagon a couple times during the course of it, and then was able to get back on, he said. But it is a struggle like everything else. Source ABC News: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/obama-is-smokin.html

68) Look at my education record in Illinois - LIAR - In reality, Obama never really championed the local councils. He supported them behind the scenes and only eventually came out publicly on their behalf. When he did weigh in, he came down on the wrong side of the debateagainst protecting principals from unwarranted dismissals and in favor of keeping councils independent, no matter what. In the end, the resolution of the conflict between the two sides didnt alleviate anyones concerns. Instead, it prolonged a turf battle that seems to have dragged down academic progress in the years since. Read more here http://www.slate.com/id/2188010?wpisrc=newsletter Source: slate.com Source: ABC News: Buried in Eloquence, Obama Contradictions About Pastor

67) I dont think my church is actually particularly controversial, Obama said at a community meeting in Nelsonville, Ohio, earlier this month. - LIAR - But yesterday, he told a different story. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes, he said in his speech yesterday in Philadelphia.

66) I did not take money from oil companies: - LIAR - [03/31/2008] THE FACTS: True enough, Obama does not take money from oil companies. No candidate does. It is illegal for corporations to give money to politicians. Corporations, however, do have political action committees that collect voluntary donations from employees and then donate them to candidates. Obama doesnt take money from PACs. He also doesnt take money from lobbyists. But he does accept money from executives and other employees of oil companies and two of his fundraisers are oil company executives. As of Feb. 29, Obamas presidential campaign had received nearly $214,000 from oil and gas industry employees and their families, according to an analysis by the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics. Clinton had received nearly $307,000 from industry workers and their families and Republican Sen. John McCain, the likely GOP presidential nominee, received nearly $394,000, according to the centers totals. Two of Obamas fundraisers are Robert Cavnar, the chairman and chief executive of Houston-based Mission Resources Corp., and George Kaiser, the president and CEO of Tulsa-based Kaiser-Francis Oil Co. Source: Associated press via Yahoo News

65) I did NOT play the race card: - LIAR - [03/31/2008] Obama was the first to play the race card. According to Phialdelphia Inquirer, Quietly, the storm over the hateful views expressed by Sen. Barack Obamas pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, has blown away the most insidious myth of the Democratic primary campaign. Obama and his surrogates have charged that Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton has deliberately and cleverly played the race card in order to label Obama the black candidate. Read more here

64) I played greater role in crafting liberal stands on gun control, the death penalty and abortion - LIAR - [03/31/2008] It was found that Obama  the day after sitting for the interview  filed an amended version of the questionnaire, which appears to contain Obamas own handwritten notes added to one answer. Read Obama had greater role on liberal survey

63.) I have the best plan to cure the Mortgage Crisis - LIAR. [03/30/2008] You and your campaign buddy Penny SubPrime Bank Collapse Prizker have had your little fingers full of subprime cash - Obama has taken $1,180,103 from the top issuers of subprime loans: Obama received $266,907 from Lehman, $5395 from GMAC, $150,850 from Credit Suisse First Boston, $11,250 from Countrywide, $9052 from Washington Mutual, $161,850 from Citigroup, $4600 from CBASS, $170,050 from Morgan Stanley, $1150 from Centex, and last but certainly NOT LEAST - Obama received $351,900 from Goldman Sachs. I am sure that cash all came from folks who knew the subprime loan they had was a dream, eh?

1-62 (We are working on updating the source of the stories) 
1.) Selma Got Me Born - LIAR, your parents felt safe enough to have you in 1961 - Selma had no effect on your birth, as Selma was in 1965. Source: hotair.com

2.) Father Was A Goat Herder - LIAR, he was a privileged, well educated youth, who went on to work with the Kenyan Government. Source: http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message504435/pg1

3.) Father Was A Proud Freedom Fighter - LIAR, he was part of one of the most corrupt and violent governments Kenya has ever had Source:http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/01/obamas-oginga-o.html

4.) My Family Has Strong Ties To African Freedom - LIAR, your cousin Raila Odinga has created mass violence in attempting to overturn a legitimate election in 2007, in Kenya. It is the first widespread violence in decades. Source:http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/01/obamas-oginga-o.html

5.) My Grandmother Has Always Been A Christian - LIAR, she does her daily Salat prayers at 5am according to her own interviews. Not to mention, Christianity wouldnt allow her to have been one of 14 wives to 1 man. Source: According to NYTimes story of April of last year, Sarah Hussein Obama told the New York Times she is a devout Muslim.

6.) My Name is African Swahili - LIAR, your name is Arabic and Baraka (from which Barack came) means blessed in that language. Hussein is also Arabic and so is Obama.

7.) I Never Practiced Islam - LIAR, you practiced it daily at school, where you were registered as a Muslim and kept that faith for 31 years,until your wife made you change, so you could run for office.

8.) My School In Indonesia Was Christian - LIAR, you were registered as Muslim there and got in trouble in Koranic Studies for making faces (check your own book).

9.) I Was Fluent In Indonesian - LIAR, not one teacher says you could speak the language.

10.) Because I Lived In Indonesia, I Have More Foreign Experience - LIAR, you were there from the ages of 6 to 10, and couldnt even speak the language. What did you learn, how to study the Koran and watch cartoons.

11.) I Am Stronger On Foreign Affairs - LIAR, except for Africa (surprise) and the Middle East (bigger surprise), you have never been anywhere else on the planet and thus have NO experience with our closest allies.

12.) I Blame My Early Drug Use On Ethnic Confusion - LIAR, you were quite content in high school to be Barry Obama, no mention of Kenya and no mention of struggle to identify - your classmates said you were just fine.

13.)An Ebony Article Moved Me To Run For Office - LIAR, Ebony has yet to find the article you mention in your book. It doesnt, and never did, exist.

14.) A Life Magazine Article Changed My Outlook On Life - LIAR, Life has yet to find the article you mention in your book. It doesnt, and never did, exist.

15.) I Wont Run On A National Ticket In 08 - LIAR, here you are, despite saying, live on TV, that you would not have enough experience by then, and you are all about having experience first.

16.) Present Votes Are Common In Illinois - LIAR, they are common for YOU, but not many others have 130 NO VOTES.

17.) Oops, I Misvoted - LIAR, only when caught by church groups and democrats, did you beg to change your misvote.

18.) I Was A Professor Of Law - LIAR, you were a senior lecturer ON LEAVE.

19.) I Was A Constitutional Lawyer - LIAR, you were a senior lecturer ON LEAVE.

20.) Without Me, There Would Be No Ethics Bill - LIAR, you didnt write it,introduce it, change it, or create it. <!noadsense>

21.) The Ethics Bill Was Hard To Pass - LIAR, it took just 14 days from start to finish.

22.) I Wrote A Tough Nuclear Bill - LIAR, your bill was rejected by your own party for its pandering and lack of all regulation - mainly because of your Nuclear Donor, Exelon, from which David Axelrod came.

23.) I Have Released My State Records - LIAR, as of March, 2008, state bills you sponsored or voted for have yet to be released, exposing all the special interests pork hidden within.

24.) I Took On The Asbestos Altgeld Gardens Mess - LIAR, you were part of a large group of people who remedied Altgeld Gardens. You failed to mention anyone else but yourself, in your books.

25.) My Economics Bill Will Help America - LIAR, your 111 economic policies were just combined into a proposal which lost 99-0, and even YOU voted against your own bill.

26.) I Have Been A Bold Leader In Illinois - LIAR, even your own supporters claim to have not seen BOLD action on your part.

27.) I Passed 26 Of My Own Bills In One Year - LIAR, they were not YOUR bills, but rather handed to you, after their creation by a fellow Senator, to assist you in a future bid for higher office.

28.) No One Contacted Canada About NAFTA - LIAR, the Candian Government issued the names and a memo of the conversation your campaign had with them.

29.) I Am Tough On Terrorism - LIAR, you missed the Iran Resolution vote on terrorism and your good friend Ali Abunimah supports the destruction of Israel.

30.) I Am Not Acting As President Yet - LIAR, after the NAFTA Memo, a dead terrorist in the FARC, in Colombia, was found with a letter stating how you and he were working together on getting FARC recognized officially.

31.) I Didnt Run Ads In Florida - LIAR, you allowed national ads to run 8-12 times per day for two weeks - and you still lost.

32.) I Won Michigan - LIAR, no you didnt. 33.) I won Nevada - LIAR, no you did not.

34.) I Want All Votes To Count - LIAR, you said let the delegates decide.

35.) I Want Americans To Decide - LIAR, you prefer caucuses that limit the vote, confuse the voters, force a public vote, and only operate during small windows of time.

36.) I passed 900 Bills in the State Senate - LIAR, you passed 26, most of which you didnt write yourself.

37.) My Campaign Was Extorted By A Friend - LIAR, that friend is threatening to sue if you do not stop saying this. Obama has stopped saying this. 38.) I Believe In Fairness, Not Tactics - LIAR, you used tactics to eliminate Alice Palmer from running against you.

39.) I Dont Take PAC Money - LIAR, you take loads of it.

40.) I dont Have Lobbysists - LIAR, you have over 47 lobbyists, and counting.

41.) My Campaign Had Nothing To Do With The 1984 Ad - LIAR, your own campaign worker made the ad on his Apple in one afternoon.

42.) My Campaign Never Took Over MySpace - LIAR, Tom, who started MySpace issued a warning about this advertising to MySpace clients.

43.) I Inspire People With My Words - LIAR, you inspire people with other peoples words.

44.) I Have Passed Bills In The U.S. Senate - LIAR, you have passed A BILL in the U.S. Senate - for Africa, which shows YOUR priorities.

45.) I Have Always Been Against Iraq - LIAR, you werent in office to vote against it AND you have voted to fund it every single time, unlike Kucinich, who seems to be out gutting you Obama. You also seem to be stepping back from your departure date - AGAIN.

46.) I Have Always Supported Universal Health Care - LIAR, your plan leaves us all to pay the 15,000,000 who dont have to buy it.

47.) I Only Found Out About My Investment Conflicts Via Mail - LIAR, both companies you site as having sent you letters about this conflict have no record of any such letter ever being created or sent.

48.) I Am As Patriotic As Anyone - LIAR, you wont wear a flag pin and you dont put your hand over your heart during the Anthem.

49.) My Wife Didnt Mean What She Said About Pride In Country - LIAR, your wifes words follow lock-step in the vein of Wright and Farrahkan, in relation to their contempt and hatred of America.

50.) Wal-Mart Is A Company I Wouldnt Support - LIAR, your wife has received nearly a quater of a million dollars through Treehouse, which is connected to Wal-Mart.

51.) Treehouse Is A Small Company - LIAR, the CEO of Treehouse last year, made more than the CEO of Wal-Mart, according to public records.

52.) University Of Chicago Hospital Pay Is Fair - LIAR, your wifes pay raise was nearly 150% her already bloated rate and the hospital is a Non-Profit Hospital, which made $100,000,000 in the last 3 years. They overcharge blacks VS whites for services, and overcharge everyone in general by 538%!

53.)I Barely Know Rezko - Only 5 Billed Hours - LIAR, you have known him for 17 years, and decided to do a real estate deal with him during a time when he was proven to be under investigation. Despite this, you divided your property and had them take off $300K before the mortgage problems started. Then Rezkos wife buys the lot beside it that you cant afford, saving you $625,000.

54.) My Donations Have Been Checked Thoroughly - LIAR, you only gave back Hsu ($72K) and Rezko (first $66K, then when caught lying $86K, then when caught lying again $150K and now caught lying YET AGAIN OBAMA, its $250k) their money when publically called on their involvement in your campaigns.

55.) My Church Is Like Any Other Christian Church - LIAR, your church is so extreme, the pastor who married you, Rev. Wright, just got done blaming the US for 9/11 and named Louis Farrahkan their person of the year.

56.) I Disagree With My Church All The Time - LIAR, you still have yet to repudiate Wright, who married you and your wife, and you still donate large sums of money to assist the church in furthering its message - hatred and revenge. You donated in 2006 alone, $22,500 to the church that you so terribly disagree with. That is nearly $500 PER WEEK - that sure is disagreement, Senator Obama.

57.) I Have Clean Connections Despite Rezko - LIAR, you are not only connected to Exelon and Rezko, you are also connected to Hillary PAC supporter Mr. Hsu, AND an Iraqi Billionaire of ill repute, Nadhmi Auchi, who ripped off people in the Food For Oil, Iraqi deal. Seems Mr. Auchi may have helped Obama buy his million dollar property long before Obama had millions of dollars. Wonder what favors Mr. Auchi expects, when Obama leaves Iraq free to be taken over by special interests such as him.

58.) I never heard sermons like Rev. Wrights, that have been in videos all day, You Tube - LIAR! 3 days later during your Mea Culpa BS speech you said Did I hear controversial statements while I sat in that church? Yes I did.

59.) The Passport Invasion is a conspiracy to find dirt on me! - LIAR. Your own Campaign Foreign Policy Advisor is the CEO of the company that looked into your records. PS - You had them look into yours to hide the fact you looked into Clintons and McCains more than a year before!

60.) Rev. Meeks has nothing to do with my campaigning - LIAR. Rev. Meeks appeared in ads for your Senate Campaign, donated to you, and helped raise money, then AND NOW. PS - He also seems to despise America. 61.) My wife didnt mean America is ignorant, she was just using a phrase - LIAR. Again, MicHELLes comments perfectly sync with Wrights, Meeks, and Farrakhans, both in language, anger, and direction.

62.) I am very Anti-Terror - LIAR. [03/30/2008] One of your good pals is long time radical and terrorist William Ayers, with whom you have been seen in the last 12 months and who has helped the now jailed khalidi, Professor at Columbia who invited Ahmadinejad to the University, to raise money for Palestinian terrorism attacks against Israel. PS - Your church published a pro Hamas Manifesto - guess you werent there on THAT Sunday either? How lucky for you. This is the LAUNDRY LIST OF LIES. Updated to reflect new dishonesties.

...and for the truly interested go to http://obamalies.net/ for more pages with videos.


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

Momee

What a great compilation. Are you sure you didn't forget anything?

Well it certainly gives us something to contemplate. 

Nice job. If anyone asks again we can just reference this post.


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## off2knit (Sep 12, 2012)

Thank you for the list momee


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Yes thank you for doing all of our homework for us momee!


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## christine4321 (Jun 10, 2012)

Volunteering in shelters and the community, talking to people who are in an unfortunate situation are some ways to help bring about understanding. 

ONe book that began to open my eyes is written my John Grisham. It is called The Street Lawyer.

We are all born with various gifts and it is our responsibility for each of us to share those gifts. THere are people who are not able to work in a high paying job through no fault of their own.

Some people are stronger than others and many that are in a weakened state weather by upbringing, abuse, community etc, just do not have the confidence and skills to get themselves out of a mess. That is why we should not judge.

I for one cannot sit by and see someone suffering because they cannot pay for the same medical treatment that I can get.

We need to take care of each other. Do that and help increase the self esteem of those less fortunate so that they may gain the courage and support to move forward. Take care of one another and watch crime drop.

We can all live a very good life. How rich need one be really? Having a private jet while another unemployed fellow needs food stamps to feed his kids. For me I feel it is wrong.

Many people who are exceedingly rich had some sort of help. They may have lived in a higher class community. Parents may have helped, maybe received inheritance. This is not to say they haven't worked hard as I am sure many have put in excess hours. All I am saying is that circumstances differ.

Someone who has worked extended hours of course needs to earn more because they are going to need more vacation to rest, they may need to hire help for the house, children, aging parents. But that doesn't mean the poor fellow at the bottom didn't try or at least didn't want to try.


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## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

indices said:


> I think we should all remember in these discussions that not all of us start off equal at birth. Some not so bright some in the wrong place etc.
> Enjoy your wealth but try and not despise those who do not have so much. Remember there are fewer of you than there are of us so the really real world is the one of ordinary people.
> 
> Indices


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

sam0767 said:


> There may be enough jobs out there for everyone who wants to work. But the thing is is when you have a family and single parent due to circumstances beyond your control and you are trying to put food on a table and keep a roof over your kids head and clothes on their back sometimes that job dosen't provide enough money. So the parent has to get some kind of assistance. It is the people who have not expirenced the hardships that are puttting people down for getting assistance. That is not fair. Walk in a persons shoes before you judge. Please lets not be so cruel and critical with each other.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

NJG said:


> Where do you get your information? As I read what you wrote I sat here with my mouth open wondering how someone could be so miss-informed. Here is a link for you to read from the census bureau. http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/11/15/census-u-s-poverty-rate-spikes-nearly-50-million-americans-affected/
> 
> I am living below the poverty level and boy am I ever waiting for this "better off all the time." When will that hit me? I think you don't have a clue what you are talking about.


Well said :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> I beg to differ. If the US government, mostly under Republican leadership, had never repeatedly borrowed from Social Security and not paid it back, neither Social Security nor Medicare would be in trouble. Do your research.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Yes thank you for doing all of our homework for us momee!


Somehow I'm not surprised to see the righties quoting a man, Andrew Breitbart, who marked Ted Kennedy's passing by calling him a villain, a duplicitous bastard and a pr--ck. Nor am I surprised that the man in question dropped dead at the age of 43--in the end all that venom ate him alive.


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## cheryl ridgway (Jan 31, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Yes thank you for doing all of our homework for us momee!


Please note that mommee's references were the National Review and Breitbart -- both notoriously right-wing Obama haters. Can she cite specific "Obama lies" from a non-partisan neutral source?


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Thank you Mommie.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Thank you Mommie.


Yes, why soil those pure Christian lips with obscenity when there are others to do it for you?


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

cheryl ridgway said:


> Please note that mommee's references were the National Review and Breitbart -- both notoriously right-wing Obama haters. Can she cite specific "Obama lies" from a non-partisan neutral source?


With all respect, how about you citing what you request? That would be a welcome opportunity for debate - one side's statement of opinion or facts (as one interprets them). It would be nice to get a contrasting view of facts or opinions WITHOUT any personal attacks thrown at the sender, rather than just ugliness when a post isn't agreed with. I would welcome reading other views. As much as I try to read widely, someone was asked to name o's lies. I googled and there were PAGES of links.


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## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

christine4321 said:


> ..............
> We are all born with various gifts and it is our responsibility for each of us to share those gifts. .................. We need to take care of each other. Do that and help increase the self esteem of those less fortunate so that they may gain the courage and support to move forward. Take care of one another and watch crime drop. ...........But that doesn't mean the poor fellow at the bottom didn't try or at least didn't want to try.


I've just quoted the portions of your post that I'd like to comment on. I agree with what you say and I think most others also agree because you have put it into the context of personal and community responsibilities and obligations. Where people seem to differ is in how this is carried out.

I believe that by keeping this responsibility at the personal/community level the response will be the quicker and more helpful to people in need and more cost effective. When the federal government is responsible you need criteria built into the tax system, a way of applying and administering the program, people who spend a lot of time in committees talking about needs, causes, etc .... and a whole system to pass funds back down the line to those that need it. Costs are added at each stage of this circle. Given high salaries and benefits paid to politicians and public service, I believe the per capita cost of administering government programs is higher than the benefit received by the individual. We regularly hear/read news of government waste and inefficiency and the hoops people have to go through to get assistance.

All citizens deserve better from our elected and public officials but to get it everyone needs to be more accountable (people, business, industry & public service)


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for your perspective.



christine4321 said:


> Volunteering in shelters and the community, talking to people who are in an unfortunate situation are some ways to help bring about understanding.
> 
> ONe book that began to open my eyes is written my John Grisham. It is called The Street Lawyer.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

knitismything said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup:


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Momeee
If you wanted anyone to actually read it, you should have paraphrased and put in the source.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

momeee said:


> With all respect, how about you citing what you request? That would be a welcome opportunity for debate - one side's statement of opinion or facts (as one interprets them). It would be nice to get a contrasting view of facts or opinions WITHOUT any personal attacks thrown at the sender, rather than just ugliness when a post isn't agreed with. I would welcome reading other views. As much as I try to read widely, someone was asked to name o's lies. I googled and there were PAGES of links.


From pages of links you chose the right-wing, conservative ones? I thought you liked to read all viewpoints.


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## balloch8 (May 11, 2012)

FINALLY! LADIES, LADIES SO GLAD THIS IS ONLINE OR I'M AFRAID IF WE WERE ALL FACE TO FACE IT WOULD COME TO FISTICUFFS!

I CHALK ALL THIS UP TO EVERYONE BLOWING OFF STEAM BECAUSE AS YOU ALL KNOW, WE CAN'T DO A DAMN THING ABOUT ANY OF IT!

ENOUGH OF THE NASTINESS!


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## cheryl ridgway (Jan 31, 2013)

alcameron said:


> From pages of links you chose the right-wing, conservative ones? I thought you liked to read all viewpoints.


I did a goggle search for "obama lies" and the first 3 pages were all from briebart! The man's purpose in life was to discredit Obama. I started to respond to "mommee" but decided it would be a waste of time. Frankly, after what I've read of her comments, she really has nothing more I'd care to read. She probably feels the same about me. However, I do understand how she feels about Obama, because I felt exactly the same about Reagan and bush.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Nobody died over Watergate, says she. How many died in Iraq and Afghanistan--wars predicated on Cheney and Bush lies?


Same old same old talking points. To paraphrase Hillary, What difference does it make now? and Jay Carney, That happened a long time ago (referring to Benghazi).


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Same old same old talking points. To paraphrase Hillary, What difference does it make now? and Jay Carney, That happened a long time ago (referring to Benghazi).


Oh, I think it does make a difference. How many lives were lost in those wars?Do you want to sweep all those lives under the rug and talk about nothing but Benghazi? Just gain a little perspective, please.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

You sure wasted a lot of space momeee. First things first. What a bunch of sore losers. Why don't you prosecute the real criminals who cost thousands and thousands of lives fighting two wars for nothing and ruining our country at home as they let our infrastucture and economy fall into ruin. Bush/Cheney. They are also the ones who created a huge debt for our children and grandchildren and that debt is getting bigger in part due to all the interest that has to be paid on top of the original debt Bush created. I'm still waiting for Bush/Cheney to be prosecuted at the Hague for war crimes. I love the GOP double standard. When they run up the debt it is necessary and when anyone else does it it's wrong. No wonder it's difficult to take them seriously.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> You sure wasted a lot of space momeee. First things first. What a bunch of sore losers. Why don't you prosecute the real criminals who cost thousands and thousands of lives fighting two wars for nothing and ruining our country at home as they let our infrastucture and economy fall into ruin. Bush/Cheney. They are also the ones who created a huge debt for our children and grandchildren and that debt is getting bigger in part due to all the interest that has to be paid on top of the original debt Bush created. I'm still waiting for Bush/Cheney to be prosecuted at the Hague for war crimes. I love the GOP double standard. When they run up the debt it is necessary and when anyone else does it it's wrong. No wonder it's difficult to take them seriously.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

soloweygirl wrote:
Same old same old talking points. To paraphrase Hillary, What difference does it make now? and Jay Carney, That happened a long time ago (referring to Benghazi).


Oh, I think it does make a difference. How many lives were lost in those wars?Do you want to sweep all those lives under the rug and talk about nothing but Benghazi? Just gain a little perspective, please.

Andrea

That's all the GOP has Andrea, is Benghazi and they know it. I guess all the American soldiers who have died needlessly and all the citizens in Iraq and Afghanistan count for nothing to them. They call themselves patriots a name that does not fit. Once again their hatred for the President is all consuming and they aren't thinking rationally about anything else. Hatred is taking it's toll on them.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

balloch8 said:


> FINALLY! LADIES, LADIES SO GLAD THIS IS ONLINE OR I'M AFRAID IF WE WERE ALL FACE TO FACE IT WOULD COME TO FISTICUFFS!
> 
> I CHALK ALL THIS UP TO EVERYONE BLOWING OFF STEAM BECAUSE AS YOU ALL KNOW, WE CAN'T DO A DAMN THING ABOUT ANY OF IT!
> 
> ENOUGH OF THE NASTINESS!


Balloch - Please refrain from shouting. Using all caps is shouting. Please cease and desist. You are hurting our ears. If you don't like this thread simply leave. Thank you.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

cheryl ridgway said:


> I did a goggle search for "obama lies" and the first 3 pages were all from briebart! The man's purpose in life was to discredit Obama. I started to respond to "mommee" but decided it would be a waste of time. Frankly, after what I've read of her comments, she really has nothing more I'd care to read. She probably feels the same about me. However, I do understand how she feels about Obama, because I felt exactly the same about Reagan and bush.


You might not like the fact that it was all from Briebart, but they are Obama's words/lies nonetheless.

How about the lies put forth by Obama and his people on the effects of the sequestra? How the American people will suffer because of the Republicans? He stated over and over that it was the Republicans fault. Actually Congress approved it.

The latest jobs reports proves that the sequester did nothing to the economy. 165K new jobs added and the unemployment rate was down from 7.6% to 7.5%. Point is the economy didn't crash and burn because of sequestration.

On Obama's latest trip to Mexico he blamed Mexico's drug related violence on the US.

"Drug fueled violence in Mexico is not entirely the fault of the Mexican people. Instead, the United States shares the blame because much of the violence is centered around the Americans' demand for illegal drugs and the fact that guns are smuggled into Mexico from the United States". The latter being the lie.

Fast and Furious is the DOJ program that put firearms into the hands of the Mexican drug dealers, who then used those guns to kill hundreds of people on both sides of the border.

Obama used executive privilege to block any investigation of Holder and the operation. Possibly suggesting the whole operation was to raise gun crime levels in border states and encourage support for his gun control agenda.

Yes, there were gun running operations under Bush, 2 that were cancelled after it was determined what was happening. The F&F was started in 2009 and was Obama's operation in total.

Obama also said "we'll keep increasing the pressure on gun traffickers who bring illegal guns into Mexico, and we'll keep putting these criminals where they belong - behind bars". Since the DOJ is responsible for the gun running, can we expect Holder and his crew to be arrested, put on trial and sent to prison any time soon? I think not. Hypocrite.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

soloweygirl wrote:
Same old same old talking points. To paraphrase Hillary, What difference does it make now? and Jay Carney, That happened a long time ago (referring to Benghazi).



Oh, I think it does make a difference. How many lives were lost in those wars?Do you want to sweep all those lives under the rug and talk about nothing but Benghazi? Just gain a little perspective, please.

Andrea




Solowey, Do you feel any sadness towards all of our citizens who died in the U.S. on 9/11. Do you feel any sadness for all our soldiers who have died in the Irag and Afghanistan wars and all the civilians who were killed? If not why not?
It is obvious you are fixated on one incident and the only reason you do so is because you hate Obama and you have nothing of importance to criticize him with. Many times people have acknowledged the tragedy in Libya but why are those lives lost so much more important to you than all those thousands of others. You and I both know the answer to that. It's over, Solowey, it's over. 

No one said it better than Shakespeare in MacBeth;

"That struts and frets his hour upon the stage. And then is heard no more: it is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."


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## balloch8 (May 11, 2012)

It was meant to get your attention. Cheeky is a good adjective for you it seems. It just seems to be a no brainer when these kind of subjects are thrown out there. I'll get off when I feel like it!!


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

balloch8 said:


> FINALLY! LADIES, LADIES SO GLAD THIS IS ONLINE OR I'M AFRAID IF WE WERE ALL FACE TO FACE IT WOULD COME TO FISTICUFFS!
> 
> I CHALK ALL THIS UP TO EVERYONE BLOWING OFF STEAM BECAUSE AS YOU ALL KNOW, WE CAN'T DO A DAMN THING ABOUT ANY OF IT!
> 
> ENOUGH OF THE NASTINESS!


The fact that it is online enables some people to be rude. If we were all sitting face to face I think some, maybe most, would act with more civility. I have extended written olive branches at times to women I disagreed with and most often the branch was ignored. In real time I think it would be difficult to not acknowledge such a gesture. Also, it is very easy to just type in angry words as a response. I force myself to erase the angry words (if I typed them) and say it with less heat. With all this said, I do sometimes feel like I am communicating with my parents whose opinions were not very enlightened even in the fifties and that is very frustrating. I am sure my comments and opinions grate on a significant amount of nerves also.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

cheryl ridgway said:


> I did a goggle search for "obama lies" and the first 3 pages were all from briebart! The man's purpose in life was to discredit Obama. I started to respond to "mommee" but decided it would be a waste of time. Frankly, after what I've read of her comments, she really has nothing more I'd care to read. She probably feels the same about me. However, I do understand how she feels about Obama, because I felt exactly the same about Reagan and bush.


I read Mommee's list and there are some things there I agree with. As I have said many times here, I am a progressive who did not vote for Obama either time. I would never (99 & 9/10's %) vote republican. One does not have to be republican or democrat to be bothered by some of his actions or non actions on certain issues. it is important for all of us to realize that no politician regardless of party is correct in everything done while in office. They have feet of clay just as we do.


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## balloch8 (May 11, 2012)

I wasn't trying to be rude in my rebuttal to cheeky blighter or anyone else. True, I don't have to read any of this. I was just scrolling and found some of it to get rather personal. I do enjoy our KP'ers and love this sight. I also enjoy everyone's opinion, to an extent. After awhile though, it's so redundant, to rehash over and over when in reality, there's not anything we can do about it. We can keep helping those who need it, and wish for the best.


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## sjrNC (Jul 30, 2012)

We mourn the loss of any life.

Interesting article from Michael Moore's blog about deaths in Afghanistan .

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/more-us-troops-die-afghanistan-under-obama-under-bush

I had thought this was something I had heard, but as always I need to check for facts.

Fixation on Benghazi , no maybe it is finding out what can be done for this not to happen again. 
Seems the GOP has more to loose if the administration's facts/timeline is correct.
Even Bob Beckel says let the true facts come out? If there is nothing to hide, then let truth be known


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

The only reason the really poor get entitlements is due to the taxes workers pay. If the poor get poorer it is due to the increased taxes that eat into their pay and the higher cost of food, goods, services, utilities, etc. that must be raised due to increased taxes, fees, regs. etc. The suggestion that a rich business owner is grabbing all the profits at the expense of the worker isn't accurate. Facts please for that assertion. Unions make sure the workers get their fair share, and then some. If a worker feels he is underpaid, he should try to find a better situation, or he could try to improve his education/ job training to make him more desirable.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

freesia792 said:


> I have to choose? Oh gosh....there are so many really good reasons... Benghazi, Fast & Furious, and the Boston Marathon, etc.
> 
> Follow the link - click it. If you recognize this , would you please put it up in obama's teleprompter? Thank you.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution If you follow the article a ways down the page, there's a tiny blurb about:
> ...


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

momeee said:


> With all respect, how about you citing what you request? That would be a welcome opportunity for debate - one side's statement of opinion or facts (as one interprets them). It would be nice to get a contrasting view of facts or opinions WITHOUT any personal attacks thrown at the sender, rather than just ugliness when a post isn't agreed with. I would welcome reading other views. As much as I try to read widely, someone was asked to name o's lies. I googled and there were PAGES of links.


Does this mean that you believe everything you find on Google? Really? I doubt you'll get a contrasting view from anyone for whatever you find on Google. I know that I get my facts from more reliable sources than the internet where, once again, anyone can post just about anything.

The internet is just about the only place I can think of where one can find anything one wants to believe. What I do take from the internet, when I can find it, is references to whatever I'm researching. Then I look up a number of them from both sides, read them carefully, think it over, and make my own decisions, continuing to work at keeping an open mind. Sometimes I take months for that and continually look for new sources. Sometimes I don't find it possible to come to an absolute opinion, but I do try to stay away from either extreme since they're both suspect in my opinion. Extreme thinking is usually emotionally driven and not reliable.....

Did you also find pages of links to the lies of conservative heroes?


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## lukka (Dec 16, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> The fact that it is online enables some people to be rude. I am sure my comments and opinions grate on a significant amount of nerves also.


Peacegoddess, actually I have read your posts,sparingly lately. We certainly have opposing veiws I'm sure, but you are respectful.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

lukka said:


> Peacegoddess, actually I have read your posts,sparingly lately. We certainly have opposing veiws I'm sure, but you are respectful.


Thank you. In my old age I am learning to count to whatever number it takes to get myself to a point of calm before writing. Life is hard and we need not make it harder on ourselves...someone else will do it for us.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

lukka wrote:
Peacegoddess, actually I have read your posts,sparingly lately. We certainly have opposing veiws I'm sure, but you are respectful.


Thank you. In my old age I am learning to count to whatever number it takes to get myself to a point of calm before writing. Life is hard and we need not make it harder on ourselves...someone else will do it for us.

If you want peace, work for justice.

Thanks for the civility of your interaction and for not shouting. It is very refreshing.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Do you actually use wikipedia as a credible source of information? A website where anyone can enter anything?

SAMkewel

Sadly, too many do. I used to believe wikipedia was a good source of quick reliable information until a friend showed me how I could post there myself and no one was fact checking what was out there. I know better now. The same is true for google. It might not be true. I have become much more cautious of where I get information and do not blindly trust any source on the left or the right. I think we could all do better by using many sources before we come to conclusions. There is truth and lies on all sides and we should thoughtfully go through our sources before we come to any conclusions. Even after doing this we can still come to the wrong conclusion at times and we should listen to opposing views. I see too many of us going to the same old sources whose sole purpose is to promote their own very biased agenda never questioning it and accepting everything blindly. I do find that troublesome and disturbing. God gave us a brain and if we don't use it, just like any other part of our body, we will lose it so keep on reading, listening and exercising your mind and it will be much more difficult for a government or any other group or organization to deceive us. Here's to independent thought.
:thumbup: Cheers!


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## lukka (Dec 16, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> lukka wrote:
> Peacegoddess, actually I have read your posts,sparingly lately. We certainly have opposing veiws I'm sure, but you are respectful.
> 
> Thank you. In my old age I am learning to count to whatever number it takes to get myself to a point of calm before writing. Life is hard and we need not make it harder on ourselves...someone else will do it for us.
> ...


Cheeky, who are you talking to about shouting? Civility???


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Do you actually use wikipedia as a credible source of information? A website where anyone can enter anything?
> 
> SAMkewel
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree. We can't be too careful :~).


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I believe the challenge was to find some of Obama's lies.
> 
> Now that many were listed, rather than trying to disprove any of the statements, you can only complain about the source. If you are unwilling to disprove any of them, I guess they must be true.
> 
> Thank you Momeee for your work. I will believe all of what you posted unless someone can prove with web sites or newspapers (name, date, and page number) or book (name, author, publisher, edition, page number).


I think it's pretty risky to "guess" anything is true. The fact that no one wants to work at disproving questionable statements goes more to prove no one is motivated to do the work :~). I may be wrong, but I think this must be the longest thread ever on KP, which certainly goes to prove interest on all sides, but it's the weekend and many of us are tired. Doing the kind of work that would disprove anyone's statements beyond a shadow of a doubt, with acceptable documentation, could take days, weeks, or months. I know I'm not willing to spend that kind of time and effort on proving or disproving statements that aren't going to change the current state of affairs one way or the other. What would be the point? I'd rather not do that just to be "right," because when all is said and done, what difference would that make to anyone but me? I don't think it would change anyone's mind, would it? We would all continue to believe whatever we choose to believe.


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## off2knit (Sep 12, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I believe the challenge was to find some of Obama's lies.
> 
> Now that many were listed, rather than trying to disprove any of the statements, you can only complain about the source. If you are unwilling to disprove any of them, I guess they must be true.
> 
> Thank you Momeee for your work. I will believe all of what you posted unless someone can prove with web sites or newspapers (name, date, and page number) or book (name, author, publisher, edition, page number).


Well stated.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You are a kind, thoughtful soul. This battle has been going on for a very long time. For myself, I refuse to let untruths and exaggerations go unanswered.



balloch8 said:


> I wasn't trying to be rude in my rebuttal to cheeky blighter or anyone else. True, I don't have to read any of this. I was just scrolling and found some of it to get rather personal. I do enjoy our KP'ers and love this sight. I also enjoy everyone's opinion, to an extent. After awhile though, it's so redundant, to rehash over and over when in reality, there's not anything we can do about it. We can keep helping those who need it, and wish for the best.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

momeee said:


> The only reason the really poor get entitlements is due to the taxes workers pay. If the poor get poorer it is due to the increased taxes that eat into their pay and the higher cost of food, goods, services, utilities, etc. that must be raised due to increased taxes, fees, regs. etc. The suggestion that a rich business owner is grabbing all the profits at the expense of the worker isn't accurate. Facts please for that assertion. Unions make sure the workers get their fair share, and then some. If a worker feels he is underpaid, he should try to find a better situation, or he could try to improve his education/ job training to make him more desirable.


 :-(


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sure. Makes sense to the right when trolling for bait.



SAMkewel said:


> Do you actually use wikipedia as a credible source of information? A website where anyone can enter anything?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> :-(


Let's not forget that union members pay dues. It doesn't all come free.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Wow! I am inspired.



SAMkewel said:


> Does this mean that you believe everything you find on Google? Really? I doubt you'll get a contrasting view from anyone for whatever you find on Google. I know that I get my facts from more reliable sources than the internet where, once again, anyone can post just about anything.
> 
> The internet is just about the only place I can think of where one can find anything one wants to believe. What I do take from the internet, when I can find it, is references to whatever I'm researching. Then I look up a number of them from both sides, read them carefully, think it over, and make my own decisions, continuing to work at keeping an open mind. Sometimes I take months for that and continually look for new sources. Sometimes I don't find it possible to come to an absolute opinion, but I do try to stay away from either extreme since they're both suspect in my opinion. Extreme thinking is usually emotionally driven and not reliable.....
> 
> Did you also find pages of links to the lies of conservative heroes?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Dear peacegoddess, I must learn to count higher.



peacegoddess said:


> Thank you. In my old age I am learning to count to whatever number it takes to get myself to a point of calm before writing. Life is hard and we need not make it harder on ourselves...someone else will do it for us.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Prove a lie, rather than checking your sources before spouting off? TBBC



joeysomma said:


> I believe the challenge was to find some of Obama's lies.
> 
> Now that many were listed, rather than trying to disprove any of the statements, you can only complain about the source. If you are unwilling to disprove any of them, I guess they must be true.
> 
> Thank you Momeee for your work. I will believe all of what you posted unless someone can prove with web sites or newspapers (name, date, and page number) or book (name, author, publisher, edition, page number).


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

TBBC



off2knit said:


> Well stated.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

lukka said:


> Cheeky, who are you talking to about shouting? Civility???


lukka I was complimenting you and peacegoddess for your nice,respectful interaction with each other and the shouting was referring to using all caps by balloch.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

damemary said:


> Wow! I am inspired.


I sincerely doubt that :~).


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Patty, love your new avatar. Bet you make killer pancakes!


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Does anyone on this thread take Lyrica? My friends who are in New Zealand right now had to replace a lost bottle of it and were surprised to only pay about $8.00 for the same amount they get here in the U S for just under $100. What accounts for the huge disparity of cost?


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## bevqual (May 9, 2011)

Actually people usually get wealthier because they work hard and they know how to save and invest... but that seems to be discouraged in America these days.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Patty, love your new avatar. Bet you make killer pancakes!


Nice rack, Susan lol!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> You asked for lies, Can you prove any one on the list is wrong? Just one!


Don't strain yourself, Joey. The path of least resistance seems to be the way for the GOP and their followers to go making it up along the way.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

bevqual said:


> Actually people usually get wealthier because they work hard and they know how to save and invest... but that seems to be discouraged in America these days.


Who would be discouraging that these days and why?


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Who would be discouraging that these days and why?


Good question!


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> You might not like the fact that it was all from Briebart, but they are Obama's words/lies nonetheless.
> 
> How about the lies put forth by Obama and his people on the effects of the sequestra? How the American people will suffer because of the Republicans? He stated over and over that it was the Republicans fault. Actually Congress approved it.
> 
> ...


You noted some very pertinent recent events. Don't get discouraged with the criticism as his supporters cannot let any negatives sully their vaulted opinion of the liar-in-chief. It wouldn't matter where the info came from...all is denied. 
i figure, the more they criticize the more the truth is hitting home. Do you think all of those loyal supporters haven't felt the financial pinch of all his mistakes and excesses?


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

alcameron said:


> From pages of links you chose the right-wing, conservative ones? I thought you liked to read all viewpoints.


Normally, I do, but someone asked for specifics of what another poster claimed were lies. I looked quickly and picked...there were so many links! Honestly though, do you think anything I posted would be acceptable as I think I'm viewed as a rightly... Certainly, given the level of disrespect here, not you, why would anyone want to spend considerable time - for nothing? Yes, it was over the top, but lots of truth, IMO.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Oh, I think it does make a difference. How many lives were lost in those wars?Do you want to sweep all those lives under the rug and talk about nothing but Benghazi? Just gain a little perspective, please.


absolutely. Even one American lost is worthy of a full, honest investigation.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

momeee said:


> You noted some very pertinent recent events. Don't get discouraged with the criticism as his supporters cannot let any negatives sully their vaulted opinion of the liar-in-chief. It wouldn't matter where the info came from...all is denied.
> i figure, the more they criticize the more the truth is hitting home. Do you think all of those loyal supporters haven't felt the financial pinch of all his mistakes and excesses?


Interesting. Where do you go to learn such sarcasm and name-calling? I must have missed out somewhere along the way. Not that it leaves me defenseless, mind you.....


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> I read Mommee's list and there are some things there I agree with. As I have said many times here, I am a progressive who did not vote for Obama either time. I would never (99 & 9/10's %) vote republican. One does not have to be republican or democrat to be bothered by some of his actions or non actions on certain issues. it is important for all of us to realize that no politician regardless of party is correct in everything done while in office. They have feet of clay just as we do.


Well said. 
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The only answer I can imagine is that they make things up to try and win a point. The score is 1,000,000 to zip.



Cheeky Blighter said:


> Who would be discouraging that these days and why?


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

momeee said:


> You noted some very pertinent recent events. Don't get discouraged with the criticism as his supporters cannot let any negatives sully their vaulted opinion of the liar-in-chief. It wouldn't matter where the info came from...all is denied.
> i figure, the more they criticize the more the truth is hitting home. Do you think all of those loyal supporters haven't felt the financial pinch of all his mistakes and excesses?


Where do you get this stuff? Same old, same old. Accept it the GOP has nothing on Obama and it's driving them all nuts. After all he is Black there must be something he is hiding and if you can't find something just make it up.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

sjrNC said:


> We mourn the loss of any life.
> 
> Interesting article from Michael Moore's blog about deaths in Afghanistan .
> 
> ...


While I am no fan of Moore, thank you for posting. I did not know (or remember) this. I thought it was interesting to note that it was published in 2010, but the ending really resonates with me, "But the skyrocketing body count makes it clear that all the things about these wars that the people turned against under Bush are still firmly in place under Obama. There is no reason for the people of the United States and soldiers in the military to support the war in Afghanistan. The Afghan people have the right to self-determination. The U.S./NATO force needs to leaveimmediately, unconditionally and completely. It will take a resurgence of the political movement that sprung into action under Bush to make that happen.

We need to stand up, inspire more GIs to resist, and fight back against this warbefore Obama reaches his next milestone of death and destruction. "...nothing has changed, and the same can be said about Syria and any current conflicts.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

While I share everyone's concerns for the dead in Benghazi, I think as women we all need to be concerned and express our concern, for me absolute outrage, to both republicans and democrats about the 3,192 sexual assaults of female soldiers (read RAPE) by fellow soldiers that were reported between Oct of 2011 and Sept of 2012.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

momeee said:


> While I am no fan of Moore, thank you for posting. I did not know (or remember) this. I thought it was interesting to note that it was published in 2010, but the ending really resonates with me, "But the skyrocketing body count makes it clear that all the things about these wars that the people turned against under Bush are still firmly in place under Obama. There is no reason for the people of the United States and soldiers in the military to support the war in Afghanistan. The Afghan people have the right to self-determination. The U.S./NATO force needs to leaveimmediately, unconditionally and completely. It will take a resurgence of the political movement that sprung into action under Bush to make that happen.
> 
> We need to stand up, inspire more GIs to resist, and fight back against this warbefore Obama reaches his next milestone of death and destruction. "...nothing has changed, and the same can be said about Syria and any current conflicts.


Obama said that our troops will be out of Afghanistan completely by 2014. Too bad they didn't resist under Bush. We would have less widows, widowers and broken hearted children.
Less disabled veterans and a hell of a lot less debt. You like to forget that those 2 wars were put on the nation's credit card.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Obama said that our troops will be out of Afghanistan completely by 2014. Too bad they didn't resist under Bush. We would have less widows, widowers and broken hearted children.
> Less disabled veterans and a hell of a lot less debt. You like to forget that those 2 wars were put on the nation's credit card.


I don't forget any of that....how can you make presumptuous personal statements? Better said would be "some like to forget", or "the country... ", but not what you wrote. I have been against all military engagements since Viet Nam. The fact is that was then, this is now. We can't change what took place, unfortunately. We need to learn from the past and not repeat the mistakes...


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

momeee said:


> While I am no fan of Moore, thank you for posting. I did not know (or remember) this. I thought it was interesting to note that it was published in 2010, but the ending really resonates with me, "But the skyrocketing body count makes it clear that all the things about these wars that the people turned against under Bush are still firmly in place under Obama. There is no reason for the people of the United States and soldiers in the military to support the war in Afghanistan. The Afghan people have the right to self-determination. The U.S./NATO force needs to leaveimmediately, unconditionally and completely. It will take a resurgence of the political movement that sprung into action under Bush to make that happen.
> 
> We need to stand up, inspire more GIs to resist, and fight back against this warbefore Obama reaches his next milestone of death and destruction. "...nothing has changed, and the same can be said about Syria and any current conflicts.


Momeee please make up your mind. In your posts you come out on opposing sides of the same issue. Do you really know where you stand on today's issues. Reread your posts they are very confusing. Maybe you should do your own research and form your own opinions hopefully based on facts. Then I will read your posts and take you seriously. Thank you.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Momeee please make up your mind. In your posts you come out on opposing sides of the same issue. Do you really know where you stand on today's issues. Reread your posts they are very confusing. Maybe you should do your own research and form your own opinions hopefully based on facts. Then I will read your posts and take you seriously. Thank you.


Please refresh my memory regarding my being on opposing sides of ... often I do agree with varying posts on both sides as I don't think any side is always 100% correct, and often a position is stated in such a way as I can give it a 'thumbs up'. I do not consider myself strongly aligned with either political party, but will admit I am more conservative at this age than I was in the past. I never vote for a party, but for issues and declare myself as Independent...To the best of my recollection and belief I do not think I've done what you claim as there are issues on which I'd not waver - war, is one ( I hate everything about fighting but understand sometimes it is unavoidable), while at the same time, I'd defend America to my death. Can you be more specific? Do you think one must follow a party's philosophy blindly?


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## freesia792 (Feb 24, 2012)

Momee, You Rule! Fantastic answer...LOL ask, and you shall receive.(sometimes in spades!)


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## off2knit (Sep 12, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Where do you get this stuff? Same old, same old. Accept it the GOP has nothing on Obama and it's driving them all nuts. After all he is Black there must be something he is hiding and if you can't find something just make it up.


Ahh the race card is played again. Don't you think you need an updated Democratic playbook? You are accusing people of not approving of Obama because of his mixed race. How shallow and insulting. I don't like him because he is a socialist that has ruined the US economy, that he lied about Benghazi, lied about cutting the deficit in half in his first four years and was going to be the most transparent administration ever.


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## freesia792 (Feb 24, 2012)

You are SO correct. Obamam is the biggest raciest of them all. He's the biggest pro abortion person ever been. Black children are the MOST aborted. His actions alone tell the black population "Your expendable, worthless population". He's after genicide of black population. I'll take a lot of b.s. for this, but them them show me where I'm wrong. liberals will not admit they're wrong no matter what. Let's let her keep going. They're killing themselves off and calling it "rights".


off2knit said:


> Ahh the race card is played again. Don't you think you need an updated Democratic playbook? You are accusing people of not approving of Obama because of his mixed race. How shallow and insulting. I don't like him because he is a socialist that has ruined the US economy, that he lied about Benghazi, lied about cutting the deficit in half in his first four years and was going to be the most transparent administration ever.


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## Knitish (Feb 8, 2011)

The Walmart heirs own $89.5B which is more than the bottom 40% of ALL american families which prob includes everyone on the KP site! How done? By not paying their employees a living wage --here and abroad--[what unions ask], relying on my and your federal and state tax dollars to pay for the healthcare they will not provide, and not paying their full share of taxes. Why people back this against their own interests is beyond anyone's comprehension? 
Liberty-> liberal.
There is no deficit problem, that is hooey just to divert from the the problem is the $18 TRILLION offshored and hidden in bank accounts, by the super rich elite so it is not taxed or used by others like you and me. 
If you do not have 13-17 children or support 13-17 children, then let abortion be a private health decision. 13-17 children is normal in a female reproductive lifetime. Leave it alone. It is none of your business. Or mine either.
There is a lot I do not like about President Obama either.


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## freesia792 (Feb 24, 2012)

He made it his business when he openly promoted it. His wife called it (late term muder) a procedure. Genocide. Call it what it is.


Knitish said:


> The Walmart heirs own $89.5B which is more than the bottom 40% of ALL american families which prob includes everyone on the KP site! How done? By not paying their employees a living wage --here and abroad--[what unions ask], relying on my and your federal and state tax dollars to pay for the healthcare they will not provide, and not paying their full share of taxes. Why people back this against their own interests is beyond anyone's comprehension?
> Liberty-> liberal.
> There is no deficit problem, that is hooey just to divert from the the problem is the $18 TRILLION offshored and hidden in bank accounts, by the super rich elite so it is not taxed or used by others like you and me.
> If you do not have 13-17 children or support 13-17 children, then let abortion be a private health decision. 13-17 children is normal in a female reproductive lifetime. Leave it alone. It is none of your business. Or mine either.
> There is a lot I do not like about President Obama either.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

IMHO this is an insincere criticism of the present administration.



momeee said:


> absolutely. Even one American lost is worthy of a full, honest investigation.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Assuming that this quote refers to how a single loss of life deserves full investigation, I think this shows that the comment was meant for effect. If I misunderstood, I apologize, of course.



freesia792 said:


> Momee, You Rule! Fantastic answer...LOL ask, and you shall receive.(sometimes in spades!)


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ignored.



off2knit said:


> Ahh the race card is played again. Don't you think you need an updated Democratic playbook? You are accusing people of not approving of Obama because of his mixed race. How shallow and insulting. I don't like him because he is a socialist that has ruined the US economy, that he lied about Benghazi, lied about cutting the deficit in half in his first four years and was going to be the most transparent administration ever.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

off2knit said:


> Ahh the race card is played again. Don't you think you need an updated Democratic playbook? You are accusing people of not approving of Obama because of his mixed race. How shallow and insulting.


Not at all. All the recent rightie talk about your pink and white complexions shows how desperately important race is to you. And when Bonnie, after "confessing" to being 1/8 African-American, felt the need to apologize for being a "mutt" I wanted to cry. What's wrong with you so-called ladies?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

off2knit said:


> Ahh the race card is played again. Don't you think you need an updated Democratic playbook? You are accusing people of not approving of Obama because of his mixed race. How shallow and insulting. I don't like him because he is a socialist that has ruined the US economy, that he lied about Benghazi, lied about cutting the deficit in half in his first four years and was going to be the most transparent administration ever.


At least he was rightfully elected, unlike his predecessor.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

damemary said:


> IMHO this is an insincere criticism of the present administration.


If 'only' one life had been lost in the kind of full-on assault (like in Benghazi) under a similar situation and what followed, I do believe it deserved a full investigation. Where is that a criticism? The comment wasn't made for effect.
I am so saddened and horrified,at the same time, over the whole horrible event and can only begin to imagine who the loved ones and survivors feel. And when comments like the ones made by Clinton and Carney, and Obama (a bump in the road)are heard, while I want to believe they have the same empathy for the families that we do, the comments are self serving at the very least., don't you think?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

off2knit said:


> Ahh the race card is played again. Don't you think you need an updated Democratic playbook? You are accusing people of not approving of Obama because of his mixed race. How shallow and insulting. I don't like him because he is a socialist that has ruined the US economy, that he lied about Benghazi, lied about cutting the deficit in half in his first four years and was going to be the most transparent administration ever.


From a socialists perspective, Obama is far from a socialist.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

momeee said:


> If 'only' one life had been lost in the kind of full-on assault (like in Benghazi) under a similar situation and what followed, I do believe it deserved a full investigation. Where is that a criticism? The comment wasn't made for effect.


What more is there to investigate? The survivors have been interviewed extensively by various intelligence agencies, and given the fact that most work for the CIA there's good reason not to parade them publicly before the cameras. And why is it even necessary? Senator Graham claims to have spoken to some of them and heard their "hair-raising stories" with his own ears--why on earth doesn't he disclose what they said if it's so shocking?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

A real instance of a single mom's working experience


From care2.com

Mary is the only wage-earner in her household. She supports her two children and her elderly mother with her hourly job. Sometimes she has to work overtime. Right now Washington is fighting over how to compensate her for that time.

Hourly workers are currently entitled to overtime pay: they must receive 1.5 times their regular hourly rate for any time they work over 40 hours in a week. A federal law, the Fair Labor Standards Act, guarantees that right.

Employers have two legal ways to control wage costs, both of which protect employees. One is to spread work around, so fewer people have to work overtime and people working less than full-time get the chance to work 40 hours a week. The other is to hire more people so the employer doesnt have to make any employees work more than 40 hours in a week.

That was part of the intent of the Fair Labor Standards Act: it creates an incentive for employers to hire more workers, which reduces unemployment, and it creates a disincentive to prevent forcing employees to work too many hours.

Lets talk dollars and cents. Say I make $10 an hour working for Company, and last week my supervisor required me to work 50 hours. That means Company owes me $15 for each of the extra 10 hours I worked last week: 150 bucks. Nice.

You work for Cheapo Co. across the road. You also worked 50 hours last week at your $10 an hour job. Cheapo doesnt want to pay 150 bucks, and the Republicans are on their side, what with Cheapo being a job creator and all.

The Republicans have created a proposal to change the Fair Labor Standards Act so that Cheapo doesnt have to pay you. Its called the Working Families Flexibility Act (WFFA, H.R. 1406 in Congress), and it would give employers the choice of compensating employees for overtime either with overtime pay or with comp time.

They are branding WFFA as a gift to working moms, rolling out an ad campaign on mommy blogs promising them more choice in setting their schedule and more freedom to change it for unexpected emergencies, like a childs sudden illness. Mommies, the Republicans are saying, if you have more time, you can manage that work/life balance problem we keep hearing about.

If only it were that easy. First lets follow the money: comp time means you dont get your 150 bucks overtime pay. Instead you get 10 free hours  unpaid. If you didnt have that comp time, you would work those ten hours at $10 per hour and earn $100  on top of the $150 you would get for the overtime. Add it up and you can see that by requiring overtime pay instead of comp time, the current law nets you $250. The Republicans would let Cheapo keep your $250 in its own pocket.

Also, because the comp time is not overtime and therefore is worth only $100, it compensates you less than the overtime pay, which would be $150.

The problems with WFFA go beyond money. It says that a worker gets overtime pay unless she and the boss agree on comp time instead. Do you think the managers at Cheapo, who dont want to compensate that worker at all, will look kindly on her if they ask her to take comp time and she refuses and insists on overtime pay? I think that she is so out of there. Bye-bye, job.

In reality, scuzzy employers like Cheapo will have the power to force comp time on workers who really need the overtime pay. They will feel free to force those workers to take the comp time when it is convenient for the company; the rosy picture the Republicans paint of a comp time bank that employees can dip into for doctor appointments or any other time they need it is likely to be the unusual arrangement, not the norm.

If I sound overly harsh on employers, it is because I spent years as a lawyer suing them for stealing peoples pay. They just wouldnt pay for overtime. They would monkey with the hours records and then say that people didnt work any overtime. They would retaliate against employees who complained, often by firing them.

If Congress really wants to help Mary out with some family flexibility, they should make it up to her alone whether she wants comp time, make it up to her when she takes it, and hire thousands more people in the Department of Labor to make sure the Cheapos out there obey those parts of the law. Otherwise, the WFFA, or H.R. 1406, is a gift to scuzzy employers and one more kick in the teeth for the working class.


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## sjrNC (Jul 30, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> What more is there to investigate? The survivors have been interviewed extensively by various intelligence agencies, and given the fact that most work for the CIA there's good reason not to parade them publicly before the cameras. And why is it even necessary? Senator Graham claims to have spoken to some of them and heard their "hair-raising stories" with his own ears--why on earth doesn't he disclose what they said if it's so shocking?


On Wednesday, the House will be holding hearings. Yes, some of these people will be testifying under oath.

Which would you believe claims by Sen. Graham or the actual testimony from a witness?

The name of the witnesses or as some would say whistle blowers has been all over Fox, but then I guess you are too busy listening to the ads about Belize.

I did see from Googling Belize that Fox did report it was a good place to go for your spring vacation, as it offered a lot for your money, but they also reported that was due to Tourist Dept of the country.


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## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

peace goddess - comp time isn't a new concept for anyone who has ever worked in a non-union environment in Canada (don't know about the US) - it's been around for as long as I can remember and worked well for me and my co-workers. I can understand where some people might not benefit from it - but it isn't bad in and of itself


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

alcameron said:


> At least he was rightfully elected, unlike his predecessor.


We'll just ignore the reported and proven voter fraud, from the states and from individuals that admitted they voted more than once.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

west coast kitty said:


> peace goddess - comp time isn't a new concept for anyone who has ever worked in a non-union environment in Canada (don't know about the US) - it's been around for as long as I can remember and worked well for me and my co-workers. I can understand where some people might not benefit from it - but it isn't bad in and of itself


I agree it can and does work for some people. It needs to be an individuals choice.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

sjrNC said:


> On Wednesday, the House will be holding hearings. Yes, some of these people will be testifying under oath.
> 
> Which would you believe claims by Sen. Graham or the actual testimony from a witness?
> 
> ...


Why does it matter whether I would have believed Senator Graham or not? You and other conservatives would have, and if it was anything significant that would have been enough to get the ball rolling.

And yes, there have been plenty of self-proclaimed whistled blowers from the right, but no one has floated a theory or even said anything concrete. For months now we've heard conservatives muttering that Obama ate a good dinner and got a full night's sleep during the Benghazi incident...not exactly a damning indictment of the man.

As for Belize, on Friday afternoon I heard Fox Radio touting the country as a haven for folks who are "anxious and scared about their futures". The ads keep pushing it as a place with a "favorable tax climate" and showing Caucasians being waited on hand and foot by beaming natives. I find all this absolutely deplorable--Belize may be a popular destination for tourists, but that's not who the ad writers are targeting. I doubt we'll see a mass conservative exodus to this island nation, but it's appalling that even some rightists want to set up a 21st century Confederacy south of the border.


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## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> I agree it can and does work for some people. It needs to be an individuals choice.


Re comp time:
I do disagree with you on that point - unless the workplace agreement says otherwise, I believe the business should have the flexibility to structure its schedule as long as workers are fully informed of the company's policy before hiring and limits around excessive overtime are in place


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

west coast kitty said:


> Re comp time:
> I do disagree with you on that point - unless the workplace agreement says otherwise, I believe the business should have the flexibility to structure its schedule as long as workers are fully informed of the company's policy before hiring and limits around excessive overtime are in place


So you disagree with the Labor Standards Act and the example given in the original post?


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## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

momeee said:


> Sorry if I sound draconian to you. I don't mean it quite that harshly. But I am so thoroughly disgusted with what I see, personally, that I am rattling some trees in as many ways as I can. Yes, I am talking about irresponsible, lazy humans - the ones who want to be taken care of without having any responsibility for their actions and who are willing to procreate to maintain their life styles. Would you like me to send you videos of gals advocating that way of life?


This word fits you perfectly "curmudgeonly".


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> We'll just ignore the reported and proven voter fraud, from the states and from individuals that admitted they voted more than once.


If the GOP Big Boys had real proof of voter fraud they would have used it by now to drum Obama out of office.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

west coast kitty said:


> Re comp time:
> I do disagree with you on that point - unless the workplace agreement says otherwise, I believe the business should have the flexibility to structure its schedule as long as workers are fully informed of the company's policy before hiring and limits around excessive overtime are in place


Quite honestly I find it abhorrent that working mothers have to bargain for time off to care for their sick children--or themselves. Like maternity leave, these should be considered basic rights.


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## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> So you disagree with the Labor Standards Act and the example given in the original post?


I did say in my original post that I was referring to Canada and that I don't know your American legislation. If your legislation prohibits comp time, I would not support breaking the law. If the question is - should business be allowed flexibility in setting hours of work I would agree with that - with the provision that safety standards are maintained and full disclosure and agreement is accepted by both parties at the time of hiring


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

west coast kitty said:


> peace goddess - comp time isn't a new concept for anyone who has ever worked in a non-union environment in Canada (don't know about the US) - it's been around for as long as I can remember and worked well for me and my co-workers. I can understand where some people might not benefit from it - but it isn't bad in and of itself


Back 20 years ago, even though I was required to belong to a union, we were required by the state employer to take comp time on a regular basis, as well as unpaid days off because of a "budget crisis." I suspect that's how unions got involved with government employment in the first place, but since we weren't allow to strike it was rather pointless. I will admit that it was better than being unemployed :~). As far as actually taking the comp time, I couldn't do that and still meet the state's required work standards of promptness. How's that for convoluted?


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## sjrNC (Jul 30, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Why does it matter whether I would have believed Senator Graham or not? You and other conservatives would have, and if it was anything significant that would have been enough to get the ball rolling.
> 
> And yes, there have been plenty of self-proclaimed whistled blowers from the right, but no one has floated a theory or even said anything concrete. For months now we've heard conservatives muttering that Obama ate a good dinner and got a full night's sleep during the Benghazi incident...not exactly a damning indictment of the man.
> 
> As for Belize, on Friday afternoon I heard Fox Radio touting the country as a haven for folks who are "anxious and scared about their futures". The ads keep pushing it as a place with a "favorable tax climate" and showing Caucasians being waited on hand and foot by beaming natives. I find all this absolutely deplorable--Belize may be a popular destination for tourists, but that's not who the ad writers are targeting. I doubt we'll see a mass conservative exodus to this island nation, but it's appalling that even some rightists want to set up a 21st century Confederacy south of the border.


We shall see what Wed brings in the way of testimony. What theory? It was a terrorist attack! 
I don't know if what Sen Graham is saying is the truth, but I do expect that the people who were there will tell the truth as they will be under oath, and if not it will be perjury.

What the president did the night of the attack is important, from testimony from Leon Panetta and I believe Mullins they never heard from the president that night even through he had been briefed on the incident that afternoon, not even a phone call from the WH as to how it was going. 
Wow, what the left or the media would have said if that had been the previous administration. 
No matter how we feel about an administration, hopefully it is the truth that matters.

As for Belize, I really doubt that only the conservatives or the right are going there... Could be some on the left that might want to go. Where people choose to retire is their business? Just like people leave high taxed states for cheaper cost of living states when they retire.
Seems from reading websites even AARP's Belize is a great place to retire. Their own websites talk it up, about the low cost of living, that it is an English speaking country, and that the American dollar is welcomed their. I believe they don't tax you on foreign income, but I would think you would still have to claim it on your US tax returns. Since I have no desire to retire there, I think I have probably learned all I need to know about living there.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> We'll just ignore the reported and proven voter fraud, from the states and from individuals that admitted they voted more than once.


This is from Forbes, Soloweygirl. Google voter fraud and you'll see the real story
Voter Fraud: A Massive, Anti-Democratic Deception

I knew something wrong was afoot when my wife reported that a 90-year-old woman had to be turned away from voting early at our local polling place. Her crime: She didnt have a drivers license. Why would she? She wasnt able to drive anymore.

As the embarrassed election judge fumbled for a solution as the woman sobbed  this was the first election she missed in her life (and might be her last)  it struck me at how regressive this whole idea of voter policing has become.

Believe me, I know plenty about voting fraud. Im from Chicago, where countless voters were registered in graveyards and perhaps aided in the election of John F. Kennedy in 1960 thanks to Richard J. Daleys political machine. He managed to put a lot of zombies in polling places  even more than were in political office at the time.

But large-scale voter fraud is virtually non-existent today. Yet the efforts to root it out recall the horrid Jim Crow era. The former party of Lincoln has been most active in this fraudulent crusade. Its mostly prevented people of color and older folks from voting. Could it be that theyd largely vote for Democrats?

Shades of 2000 and 2004 when somehow voting machines werent delivered to African-American precincts in Ohio and Florida or unforeseen glitches prevented their ballots from counting. Its not that the disenfranchised voters werent properly registered  by and large they were. But a systematic campaign to keep them from voting was in place. Its been documented by several news organizations, most notably the Miami Herald.

Lets say that for the sake of argument that GOP activists are rightly concerned about the wrong people somehow getting access to a ballot. Is this a prevalent activity that needs to be stopped at all costs?

One of the best studies on the subject was conducted by Justin Levitt of the New York University Law School. Its conclusion is simple: allegations of widespread voter fraud are greatly exaggerated.

Many of the claims of voter fraud amount to a great deal of smoke without much fireMost allegations of fraud turn out to be baselessand that of the few allegations remaining, most reveal election irregularities and other forms of election misconduct, rather than fraud by individual voters. The type of individual voter fraud supposedly targeted by recent legislative effortsespecially efforts to require certain forms of voter IDsimply does not exist.

The creation and propagation of the voter fraud myth, which has gained huge currency in the GOP over the past decade, has been championed by Hans von Spakovsky, a lawyer who is also a fellow at the conservative Heritage Foundation. He was recently profiled by Jane Mayer in a New Yorker piece. His work has spawned numerous new rules in states like Florida and Ohio that not only promote strict voter ID laws, but end up restricting voting in minority-dominated areas. Many of these restrictions are likely violations of the Voting Rights Act, a landmark law that Lyndon Johnson signed in 1965 to end the Jim Crow era, well, until democracy foes like Spakovsky came on the scene.

If anything, voting should be as simple as going to an ATM. You can do it any time and at virtually any place. You should be do it through the mail, email or by texting. If you can buy a product from amazon.com with one click, you certainly should be able to vote with 21st-century ease.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

west coast kitty said:


> I did say in my original post that I was referring to Canada and that I don't know your American legislation. If your legislation prohibits comp time, I would not support breaking the law. If the question is - should business be allowed flexibility in setting hours of work I would agree with that - with the provision that safety standards are maintained and full disclosure and agreement is accepted by both parties at the time of hiring


We are not so far off on the issue. Did not intend disrespect.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

sjrNC said:


> We shall see what Wed brings in the way of testimony. What theory? It was a terrorist attack!


If indeed it was, what light is going to be shed on the particulars by the spoken words of the sworn witnesses? All they're going to be able to talk about is what they saw and heard through the embassy windows: what time the shooting started, how many shots fired, how many "terrorists" they glimpsed running back and forth with machine guns, and so on and so on. I think the conservatives are barking up the wrong tree here--any duplicitous acts and/or coverup didn't take place inside the embassy walls.


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## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> We are not so far off on the issue. Did not intend disrespect.


None taken - diversity and respectful debate educate us, which can only be good.


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## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> Back 20 years ago, even though I was required to belong to a union, we were required by the state employer to take comp time on a regular basis, as well as unpaid days off because of a "budget crisis." I suspect that's how unions got involved with government employment in the first place, but since we weren't allow to strike it was rather pointless. I will admit that it was better than being unemployed :~). As far as actually taking the comp time, I couldn't do that and still meet the state's required work standards of promptness. How's that for convoluted?


Seems like things aren't that different between our countries and haven't changed that much over the years. I'm sure you have lots of other convoluted stories to tell and I bet I can relate to many of them.

Comp time was the standard in my workplace going back to the 70's and to be honest it didn't bother me that I didn't get a lot of my time back. A good portion was just considered professional time and we were only compensated for "excessive" OT. Many times it was very frustrating and sometimes felt like the hamster on the treadmill. But I learned a lot, advanced in my career, worked some very good people and had the flexibility to take a longer lunch or leave early without ever being questioned.

My husband was self-employed for most of his career and all his hours were billed at contracted rate and he only got paid for hours worked (no stats, sick or vacation) and no employee benefits. I've operated a small business since 2001 and my income is whatever is left when everything else is paid. Pluses and minuses but overall we don't regret our choices.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

west coast kitty said:


> Seems like things aren't that different between our countries and haven't changed that much over the years. I'm sure you have lots of other convoluted stories to tell and I bet I can relate to many of them.
> 
> Comp time was the standard in my workplace going back to the 70's and to be honest it didn't bother me that I didn't get a lot of my time back. A good portion was just considered professional time and we were only compensated for "excessive" OT. Many times it was very frustrating and sometimes felt like the hamster on the treadmill. But I learned a lot, advanced in my career, worked some very good people and had the flexibility to take a longer lunch or leave early without ever being questioned.
> 
> My husband was self-employed for most of his career and all his hours were billed at contracted rate and he only got paid for hours worked (no stats, sick or vacation) and no employee benefits. I've operated a small business since 2001 and my income is whatever is left when everything else is paid. Pluses and minuses but overall we don't regret our choices.


No, I don't regret my choice either. I had almost forgotten about the issues involved because I'd rather focus on the positives. I would have preferred to have a little more choice at the time, however :~D.

I think you're correct about there being few differences between our countries.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> From a socialists perspective, Obama is far from a socialist.


Absolutely. Centrist at most. Why do people persist in this myth?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> Absolutely. Centrist at most. Why do people persist in this myth?


I guess they persist because socialist is a dirty word to them and every dirty word there is applies to Obama, in their minds.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh come on. These crimes would be in the justice system, but aren't. Therefore, I think you're dreaming and gossiping again.



soloweygirl said:


> We'll just ignore the reported and proven voter fraud, from the states and from individuals that admitted they voted more than once.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It is also not available in many instances. Several companies my husband worked for had a policy of using your vacation by the end of the year or losing it. Of course you had to have your vacation approved and couldn't schedule it.



peacegoddess said:


> I agree it can and does work for some people. It needs to be an individuals choice.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think the corporation has a duty to have enough workers to cover the amount of work necessary.



west coast kitty said:


> Re comp time:
> I do disagree with you on that point - unless the workplace agreement says otherwise, I believe the business should have the flexibility to structure its schedule as long as workers are fully informed of the company's policy before hiring and limits around excessive overtime are in place


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That's what right to work brought us. Remember the air traffic controllers and Ronald Regan? See why I think the dreaded unions are needed badly?



peacegoddess said:


> So you disagree with the Labor Standards Act and the example given in the original post?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

In the USA the law was changed to favor corporations over workers. When interviewing for a job, this is the last thing explained if it is covered at all. Workers are anxious to get a job. Customers are covered. Employers profit. And workers get the stick.



west coast kitty said:


> I did say in my original post that I was referring to Canada and that I don't know your American legislation. If your legislation prohibits comp time, I would not support breaking the law. If the question is - should business be allowed flexibility in setting hours of work I would agree with that - with the provision that safety standards are maintained and full disclosure and agreement is accepted by both parties at the time of hiring


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

alcameron said:


> This is from Forbes, Soloweygirl. Google voter fraud and you'll see the real story
> Voter Fraud: A Massive, Anti-Democratic Deception
> 
> I knew something wrong was afoot when my wife reported that a 90-year-old woman had to be turned away from voting early at our local polling place. Her crime: She didnt have a drivers license. Why would she? She wasnt able to drive anymore.
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> Absolutely. Centrist at most. Why do people persist in this myth?


Because they don't know any better. They just keep repeating the rhetoric.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

They try to make him more extreme than he is.



aw9358 said:


> Absolutely. Centrist at most. Why do people persist in this myth?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> We'll just ignore the reported and proven voter fraud, from the states and from individuals that admitted they voted more than once.


I will! I don't think all of those 'frauds" were willing to risk 5 years in prison and a $10,000. fine for voter fraud in an election.
One more vote in the big barrel is not going to change an election.
The real fraud is the jerry mandering in state districts that would spilt up the minority votes like they have done in Michigan.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I will! I don't think all of those 'frauds" were willing to risk 5 years in prison and a $10,000. fine for voter fraud in an election.
> One more vote in the big barrel is not going to change an election.
> The real fraud is the jerry mandering in state districts that would spilt up the minority votes like they have done in Michigan.


I'm not particularly proud to live in Michigan.....


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

There's nothing you could really do about it, Sam, outside of writing the Governor and local reps to voice your disagreement. But the people of Detroit and other cities will find a way to stop this voter supression.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> I'm not particularly proud to live in Michigan.....


Oh heck we all have difficulties with one thing or another where we live. I cannot abide Jerry Brown. Sooooooo different from when he was guv 30 plus years ago. He is like a liberal republican now.

So proud of myself, I figured out how to get an avattar. Computer lingo is so not my language. I am such a ludite.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> There's nothing you could really do about it, Sam, outside of writing the Governor and local reps to voice your disagreement. But the people of Detroit and other cities will find a way to stop this voter supression.


My local reps are Republicans, as is the governor, and they don't seem the least bit interested in the issue. They're far more interested in building new roads (which we need) and a new bridge to Canada (which I'm not so sure we need).


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> My local reps are Republicans, as is the governor, and they don't seem the least bit interested in the issue. They're far more interested in building new roads (which we need) and a new bridge to Canada (which I'm not so sure we need).


I hear you there. Mine are dems, except for my congresswoman. I have Michele Bachmann who only a couple of years ago weaseled 700million federal dollars for a bridge from Minnesota to Wisconsin that maybe 4,000 people will use. But out of the other side of her mouth says we don't want or need federal money. My letters to her fall on blind eyes and deaf ears. Thank God we have Dem Governor and 2 great Dem senators.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> Oh heck we all have difficulties with one thing or another where we live. I cannot abide Jerry Brown. Sooooooo different from when he was guv 30 plus years ago. He is like a liberal republican now.
> 
> So proud of myself, I figured out how to get an avattar. Computer lingo is so not my language. I am such a ludite.


Congrats on the avatar thing. It took me awhile to figure it out despite the easy directions... This latest trend to have African-American avatars is a lot of fun. I hope it lasts for a while because I'm starting to think of photos of other African-American women I'd like to change my avatar to. Maybe we should all try to change avatars every day and see how many African-American women we collectively admire.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SeattleSoul said:


> Congrats on the avatar thing. It took me awhile to figure it out despite the easy directions... This latest trend to have African-American avatars is a lot of fun. I hope it lasts for a while because I'm starting to think of photos of other African-American women I'd like to change my avatar to. Maybe we should all try to change avatars every day and see how many African-American women we collectively admire.


Is that Mahalia Jackson, SS?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SeattleSoul said:


> Congrats on the avatar thing. It took me awhile to figure it out despite the easy directions... This latest trend to have African-American avatars is a lot of fun. I hope it lasts for a while because I'm starting to think of photos of other African-American women I'd like to change my avatar to. Maybe we should all try to change avatars every day and see how many African-American women we collectively admire.


Is that Mahalia Jackson, SS?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

People think that my avatar is Aunt Jemima, but it is actually Hattie McDaniel who plated Mammy in Gone with the Wind.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I thought at first she was Butterfly McQueen who played the young girl who said" I don't know nothin bout birthin no babies, Miss Scarlet"
Mammy was a tough old cookie!

Hattie McDaniel who became the 1st Afro-American to win an Oscar in 1939 for Best supporting actor award came at a time when a vast majority believed in the white supremacy & had reservations against blacks. Therefore David O.Selznick was pressurized by the Governor of Atlanta that she didn't attend the world's greatest premier being held at Atlanta. Therefore she was not allowed to attend the film's Atlanta premier & at the Academy awards she & her husband had to sit in the back of the room at a table reserved only for them. Such was the plight of the pre-civil rights movement in the US.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> People think that my avatar is Aunt Jemima, but it is actually Hattie McDaniel who plated Mammy in Gone with the Wind.


I've been trying to remember her name; I did recognize her from "Gone with the Wind." That movie was made the same year I was born; fortunately they still show it from time to time. Thank you for supplying her name.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I just figured it out too. I guess we both graduated from luddite with a little help from our friends.


peacegoddess said:


> Oh heck we all have difficulties with one thing or another where we live. I cannot abide Jerry Brown. Sooooooo different from when he was guv 30 plus years ago. He is like a liberal republican now.
> 
> So proud of myself, I figured out how to get an avattar. Computer lingo is so not my language. I am such a ludite.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm stuck like you Sam. Arizona is a traditionally GOP state. Senators McCain and Flake (yes, that's his real name) hear from me regularly. I want them to know that the state is changing and we are active.



SAMkewel said:


> My local reps are Republicans, as is the governor, and they don't seem the least bit interested in the issue. They're far more interested in building new roads (which we need) and a new bridge to Canada (which I'm not so sure we need).


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My sincere condolences Patty. Laugh or cry to get through Bachmann. This too shall pass.



BrattyPatty said:


> I hear you there. Mine are dems, except for my congresswoman. I have Michele Bachmann who only a couple of years ago weaseled 700million federal dollars for a bridge from Minnesota to Wisconsin that maybe 4,000 people will use. But out of the other side of her mouth says we don't want or need federal money. My letters to her fall on blind eyes and deaf ears. Thank God we have Dem Governor and 2 great Dem senators.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I respect the talent of these great blacks who endured insult with dignity. Hattie McDaniel and others live on. signed Lena Horne



BrattyPatty said:


> I thought at first she was Butterfly McQueen who played the young girl who said" I don't know nothin bout birthin no babies, Miss Scarlet"
> Mammy was a tough old cookie!
> 
> Hattie McDaniel who became the 1st Afro-American to win an Oscar in 1939 for Best supporting actor award came at a time when a vast majority believed in the white supremacy & had reservations against blacks. Therefore David O.Selznick was pressurized by the Governor of Atlanta that she didn't attend the world's greatest premier being held at Atlanta. Therefore she was not allowed to attend the film's Atlanta premier & at the Academy awards she & her husband had to sit in the back of the room at a table reserved only for them. Such was the plight of the pre-civil rights movement in the US.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I've been thinking about peacegoddess' comment about rapes in the military. It's so upsetting to think about the aggression and lack of respect for other soldiers that still exists after so many years. There is no excuse.

I most sincerely hope that all cases will be thoroughly investigated and the guilty punished to the full extent of the law.

Have you heard about it? What is your opinion?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'm stuck like you Sam. Arizona is a traditionally GOP state. Senators McCain and Flake (yes, that's his real name) hear from me regularly. I want them to know that the state is changing and we are active.


Your governor is a real winner, too, isn't she?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

From CNN

I did not enclose the entire article as it is long. But what is the cause of America's "sons" assaulting America's "daughters"? I am not accusing any one persons specific son in the military. This is a serious problem and I am curious what other women think about the the possible causes.

STORY HIGHLIGHTS

Jackie Speier: If you commit sexual assault in the military, you'll probably get away with it
Speier: Service members who report attack face ridicule, demotion, refusal to be heard
Sex assault scandal at Lackland base shows how trainees are preyed upon, she says
Speier wants sex assault cases tried in impartial military office to ensure justice

Editor's note: Democratic U.S. Rep. Jackie Speier represents the 12th District of California. She is also the honorary chair of Protect Our Defenders, an organization that supports women and men in uniform who have been raped or sexually assaulted by fellow service members. Those who wish to share their stories can do so at Protect Our Defenders. Watch Rep. Speier talk about the issue with Carol Costello on CNN Newsroom on Thursday in the 9 a.m. hour.

(CNN) -- If you serve in the U.S. military and you rape or sexually assault a fellow service member, chances are you won't be punished. In fact, you have an estimated 86.5% chance of keeping your crime a secret and a 92% chance of avoiding a court-martial.

These disturbing statistics illustrate an ongoing epidemic of rape and sexual assault in the military that Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta believes amounted to 19,000 incidents just in 2010. A culture of acceptance combined with few prosecutions against assailants and the conflicted chain of command structure discourages victims from reporting crimes.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh, don't get me started. She and Bachmann would be great buds. In AZ they are trying to decide if you can pay for groceries with gold or silver. Good use of time? NOT!



alcameron said:


> Your governor is a real winner, too, isn't she?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

What is going on? Are these people 50 years behind the times in attitude? How long since you heard the 'she liked it' defense work in a court of law? This obviously goes high up the chain of command. I think the time has come for some action.



peacegoddess said:


> From CNN
> 
> I did not enclose the entire article as it is long. But what is the cause of America's "sons" assaulting America's "daughters"? I am not accusing any one persons specific son in the military. This is a serious problem and I am curious what other women think about the the possible causes.
> 
> ...


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'm stuck like you Sam. Arizona is a traditionally GOP state. Senators McCain and Flake (yes, that's his real name) hear from me regularly. I want them to know that the state is changing and we are active.


I'm very aware of the political situation in Arizona. We seriously considered relocating there but had many setbacks in our plans. Ultimately we decided the political climate there was too GOP and volatile for us, not something a progressive wants to retire to :~D. It looks like we're going to stay put :~(. We were born and reared in Michigan but I have never been a fan of this climate. DH has never been politically involved; he was career Navy and has lived in many climates, none of which particularly bothered him. I, on the other hand, am always amazed to find I've survived through another winter.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

damemary said:


> I respect the talent of these great blacks who endured insult with dignity. Hattie McDaniel and others live on. signed Lena Horne


Lena was lovely, wasn't she?


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

damemary said:


> What is going on? Are these people 50 years behind the times in attitude? How long since you heard the 'she liked it' defense work in a court of law? This obviously goes high up the chain of command. I think the time has come for some action.


Having been a Navy wife for eight years, until I just couldn't take it any more, the military have their own world and it isn't a pretty one or a healthy one. Since DH didn't want to honor his promise to get out and stay out, made before I agreed to marry him, I felt I had no choice. I wasn't going to bring additional children into that kind of life. So, we both remarried, had another family, lost our spouses, met again due to the terminal illness and death of our son, and ultimately remarried 4-1/2 years ago Strange story, no?


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

damemary said:


> What is going on? Are these people 50 years behind the times in attitude? How long since you heard the 'she liked it' defense work in a court of law? This obviously goes high up the chain of command. I think the time has come for some action.


At least people are actually talking about rape and sexual assault in the military, people with varying degrees of power to effect change, and varying people to demand change. The genie won't fit back in the bottle. The problem I see is that it may take 50 years to reduce the incidence of rape and sexual assault in the military as much as possible.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Ok here I go. I think our culture has taken major back steps as concerns women. I think we as a society are not raising our sons to respect women and we have movies, video games, magazines and other cultural influences that give a tacit ok to degrading girls and women. Even the clothes produced for women perpetuate the idea of "bad girls/women" with suggestive slogans across the front of t shirts and the rear end of pants. I think there are young men who feel so threatened by women their only response is to revert to sexual harassment and assault. We have reverted to the "She asked for it because:
1 She dressed provocatively
2 She joined the military and that is for men
3 She got drunk
4 I'm a man and I have power.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

SeattleSoul said:


> At least people are actually talking about rape and sexual assault in the military, people with varying degrees of power to effect change, and varying people to demand change. The genie won't fit back in the bottle. The problem I see is that it may take 50 years to reduce the incidence of rape and sexual assault in the military as much as possible.


The only reason they are talking about it is because Congresswoman Jackie Spier and many of the assaulted women have come forward and exposed the military's dirty laundry in sunlight. I want to hear what mothers of sons and daughters have to say about this. One of the first things I say to a young woman who tells me she is thinking of joining the military is the number of rapes and assaults.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> Having been a Navy wife for eight years, until I just couldn't take it any more, the military have their own world and it isn't a pretty one or a healthy one. Since DH didn't want to honor his promise to get out and stay out, made before I agreed to marry him, I felt I had no choice. I wasn't going to bring additional children into that kind of life. So, we both remarried, had another family, lost our spouses, met again due to the terminal illness and death of our son, and ultimately remarried 4-1/2 years ago Strange story, no?


It was a love match.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> If indeed it was, what light is going to be shed on the particulars by the spoken words of the sworn witnesses? All they're going to be able to talk about is what they saw and heard through the embassy windows: what time the shooting started, how many shots fired, how many "terrorists" they glimpsed running back and forth with machine guns, and so on and so on. I think the conservatives are barking up the wrong tree here--any duplicitous acts and/or coverup didn't take place inside the embassy walls.


Their testimony will also show how this government's change of blame only hurt our chances to get information. The Libyan gov't stated from the beginning that it was a terrorist attack. Our gov't ignored that and stated it was the reaction to the stupid video and continued on with this idiotic reason for weeks. This was a slap in the face to the Libyan gov't, which resulted in the delays of the FBI gaining entrance into Libya and thus their investigation. It also provided no help from the Libyans as to who the actual attackers are. You are right in that the coverup did not take place inside the Consulate walls, it all happened thousands of miles away in Washington, DC.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

damemary said:


> Oh come on. These crimes would be in the justice system, but aren't. Therefore, I think you're dreaming and gossiping again.


Of course they are not in the justice system. Look who is in charge. Do you really expect Holder to bring charges against anyone committing voter fraud when he wouldn't charge the Black Panthers in 2008?


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

damemary said:


> I think the corporation has a duty to have enough workers to cover the amount of work necessary.


Not all businesses can afford that luxury.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> There's nothing you could really do about it, Sam, outside of writing the Governor and local reps to voice your disagreement. But the people of Detroit and other cities will find a way to stop this voter supression.


This voter suppression you are talking about is done by Democrats to those that vote Democrat. Detroit is the result of 30+ years of the city voting Democratic. How did that work out for them? Bankruptcy in their very near future? How Nice.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Ok here I go. I think our culture has taken major back steps as concerns women. I think we as a society are not raising our sons to respect women and we have movies, video games, magazines and other cultural influences that give a tacit ok to degrading girls and women. Even the clothes produced for women perpetuate the idea of "bad girls/women" with suggestive slogans across the front of t shirts and the rear end of pants. I think there are young men who feel so threatened by women their only response is to revert to sexual harassment and assault. We have reverted to the "She asked for it because:
> 1 She dressed provocatively
> 2 She joined the military and that is for men
> 3 She got drunk
> 4 I'm a man and I have power.


You are right on the money! Clothes for little girls are miniatures of women's. All we see in entertainment, whether it is on TV, movies, magazines, is promoting women as sex objects...and the women buy into it. Schools have weakened or eliminated dress codes and if there is one and it is employed, parents and students rebel, threaten law suits. It is tough to raise girls to be individuals and resist the trends.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> Ok here I go. I think our culture has taken major back steps as concerns women. I think we as a society are not raising our sons to respect women and we have movies, video games, magazines and other cultural influences that give a tacit ok to degrading girls and women. Even the clothes produced for women perpetuate the idea of "bad girls/women" with suggestive slogans across the front of t shirts and the rear end of pants. I think there are young men who feel so threatened by women their only response is to revert to sexual harassment and assault. We have reverted to the "She asked for it because:
> 1 She dressed provocatively
> 2 She joined the military and that is for men
> 3 She got drunk
> 4 I'm a man and I have power.


I am in total agreement with you on this topic Peacegoddess. (shocking, I know. )

I don't understand why any woman would want to wear clothing that demeans them. I sincerely doubt they think they are making a fashion statement. They wear this type of clothing because the boys (they are hardly men) want them to. What does this say about their self esteem?


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> I am in total agreement with you on this topic Peacegoddess. (shocking, I know. )
> 
> I don't understand why any woman would want to wear clothing that demeans them. I sincerely doubt they think they are making a fashion statement. They wear this type of clothing because the boys (they are hardly men) want them to. What does this say about their self esteem?


I am, too. And I can't believe how many women on this forum (not this thread) are constantly seeking the approval of others for their life choices along with their knitting/crocheting choices. I thought the goal in growing up was to become independent?


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## medusa (Nov 20, 2012)

momeee said:


> You are right on the money! Clothes for little girls are miniatures of women's. All we see in entertainment, whether it is on TV, movies, magazines, is promoting women as sex objects...and the women buy into it. Schools have weakened or eliminated dress codes and if there is one and it is employed, parents and students rebel, threaten law suits. It is tough to raise girls to be individuals and resist the trends.


Momee, I am in complete agreement with you! Believe me, I'm no prude, but I am shocked and appalled at the way I see young girls dress, which I am sure, is the reaction they expect!


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

medusa said:


> Momee, I am in complete agreement with you! Believe me, I'm no prude, but I am shocked and appalled at the way I see young girls dress, which I am sure, is the reaction they expect!


Often the dress and mannerisms of young girls literally turns my stomach. Whatever happened to the "innocence" of childhood? I wonder how much the "beauty pageants" for very young girls has to do with this.....


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> Often the dress and mannerisms of young girls literally turns my stomach. Whatever happened to the "innocence" of childhood? I wonder how much the "beauty pageants" for very young girls has to do with this.....


Try to buy a "t-shirt" to wear around the house. When I go shopping the first thing I look at is the neckline, which is usually a big deep V-neck or scoop neck, and I if don't want it skin-tight I have to buy XL, which I'm not! I'm not saying that if a woman dresses a certain way she's "asking for it," but I really have a hard time understanding why it's OK to show so much. Worse yet, this trend isn't just bought into by younger women and girls. I see many women walking around with clothes that I think are inappropriate outside of the yard.
I never thought of myself as prudish, but I guess maybe I am??


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

medusa said:


> Momee, I am in complete agreement with you! Believe me, I'm no prude, but I am shocked and appalled at the way I see young girls dress, which I am sure, is the reaction they expect!


Agree as well, I saw padded bras for sale in the pre-teen section at Target the other day.


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## Knitish (Feb 8, 2011)

The latest is the NRA Convention in Austin TX featuring 3D woment targets "bleeding" from the mouth and elsewhere from gunshot wounds: the 'bad' grilfriend, exwife, grumpy mom, rude neighbor, etc. UNbeleivable. Search "bleeding gun targets @ NRA Convention and it will lead you to it! 30,000 americans die yearly of gunshot wounds.


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## Knitish (Feb 8, 2011)

For decent clothes go to Patagonia, LandsEnd, REI or LLBean.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitish said:


> The latest is the NRA Convention in Austin TX featuring 3D woment targets "bleeding" from the mouth and elsewhere from gunshot wounds: the 'bad' grilfriend, exwife, grumpy mom, rude neighbor, etc. UNbeleivable. Search "bleeding gun targets @ NRA Convention and it will lead you to it! 30,000 americans die yearly of gunshot wounds.


That's sick!
If women were armed to protect their reproductive rights,you would see the republicans scrambling to put a ban on assault weapons.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitish said:


> The latest is the NRA Convention in Austin TX featuring 3D woment targets "bleeding" from the mouth and elsewhere from gunshot wounds: the 'bad' grilfriend, exwife, grumpy mom, rude neighbor, etc. UNbeleivable. Search "bleeding gun targets @ NRA Convention and it will lead you to it! 30,000 americans die yearly of gunshot wounds.


I did...I'm appalled.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> That's sick!
> If women were armed to protect their reproductive rights,you would see the republicans scrambling to put a ban on assault weapons.


Great idea!


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I did...I'm appalled.


I did not stick with watching the convention long enough for that. What a lovely way to honor women huh?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

How about this?



The NRA has asked vendor Zombie Industries to remove one of its three-dimensional, life sized shooting targets from an NRA convention in Houston because of the targets uncanny resemblance to President Barack Obama. The particular model, pictured above, is reminiscent of the History Channels Satan, dubbed Obama Satan by conservatives for the devils resemblance to the president.

Sources at the conference spoke to BuzzFeed:

Someone from the NRA came by and asked us to remove it a Zombie Industries booth worker told BuzzFeed in hushed tones. They thought it looked too much like President Obama.

When asked if the Obama likeness was intentional the worker said, Lets just say I gave my Republican father one for Christmas.


Maybe Lukelucy will add it to her wish list in December.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Try to buy a "t-shirt" to wear around the house. When I go shopping the first thing I look at is the neckline, which is usually a big deep V-neck or scoop neck, and I if don't want it skin-tight I have to buy XL, which I'm not! I'm not saying that if a woman dresses a certain way she's "asking for it," but I really have a hard time understanding why it's OK to show so much. Worse yet, this trend isn't just bought into by younger women and girls. I see many women walking around with clothes that I think are inappropriate outside of the yard.
> I never thought of myself as prudish, but I guess maybe I am??


No, not prudish. Most of us grew up with parent(s) that wouldn't allow it, along with the schools, jobs which enforce a dress code. I remember how thrilled I was in my 1st year teaching - 2nd grade- when the MINI skirt was the fashion...and we were allowed to wear pant suits, not slacks, suits. We'll, teaching little kids, one need to stoop, bend, squat a lot to help them! A pant suit was a life saver.Today I cannot believe how scruffy some teachers look.
When I see some older women out, I wonder if they've looked in a mirror before they've left the house. Today's styles are designed for fit and trim young gals, even tho' they come in larger sizes. What are they thinking?


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> I am in total agreement with you on this topic Peacegoddess. (shocking, I know. )
> 
> I don't understand why any woman would want to wear clothing that demeans them. I sincerely doubt they think they are making a fashion statement. They wear this type of clothing because the boys (they are hardly men) want them to. What does this say about their self esteem?


People buy what they are brainwashed by commercials into buying. People want to conform, even to th extent of wearing sexist advertising on their rear ends. When women and men bother to think before they buy, you can criticise them. As it is now, most women and men are robots controlled by the current materialistic values of our times.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Knitish said:


> For decent clothes go to Patagonia, LandsEnd, REI or LLBean.


you are correct. They remind me of the more classic styles and fit.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Not that I do not concur with the clothing aspect of our conversation, but what about the male part of this issue. Who is raising these guys who rape?


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Not that I do not concur with the clothing aspect of our conversation, but what about the male part of this issue. Who is raising these guys who rape?


Sometimes no one, given the households with overworked moms as the sole parent. Then look at what the male children grow up with on TV, movies, music-lyrics, video games, etc. I'd suspect that if they had strong role models it would have a positive effect for curtailing some of the views young men have, but disrespect for women is so prevalent. Many women do not have much self respect, so how can they demand it of their sons? 
Most parents do not have the energy to take away or stop the above mentioned forms of entertainment, do they? At an early age the above are used to keep the kids quiet - and unsupervised. Add to that kids' lack of impulse control, the need for immediate gratification, anger, the need to 'prove' their manhood, or improve their feeling about sense of self...wow as I start writing this it is so very complex. 
Does anyone think the laws governing juvenile offenders are too lenient? I don't have much experience there, but when I see or read local issues (not necessarily rape, but violence against girls), it seems that kids get off so easily, even with repeat offenses.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

momeee said:


> Does anyone think the laws governing juvenile offenders are too lenient? I don't have much experience there, but when I see or read local issues (not necessarily rape, but violence against girls), it seems that kids get off so easily, even with repeat offenses.


Not really. This from The Human Rights Watch:

But prison life is particularly challenging for youthful offenders who come to prison as 
children or as very young adults. They often lack the physical and mental coping 
mechanisms that older adult prisoners use to maintain their mental health and self respect. Because of this and due to their unique vulnerabilities, rape, assault, and 
assignment to various forms of isolated segregation are common, as are depression and 
suicidal thoughts and attempts. Sadly, the suicide rate for inmates under 25 is many times 
higher than for any other age bracket in prison, a contrast that is not replicated among 
people out of prison.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> From CNN
> 
> I did not enclose the entire article as it is long. But what is the cause of America's "sons" assaulting America's "daughters"? I am not accusing any one persons specific son in the military. This is a serious problem and I am curious what other women think about the the possible causes.
> 
> ...


Peacegoddess When our son was in the military back in the '90's he was very disturbed by the attitude of many males he was serving with. He said that he felt a majority of males believed that the women they were serving with were either lesbians and if straight "had loose morals". In either case they were badly treated by their male counterparts. He told us that sexual harassment was widely accepted and that if you were a woman who was assaulted or raped you were "asking for it". I thought that attitude was not widely held by young men today but it certainly was and is true in the military. It was just another thing he hated about the military and when his time was up he was out of there. He said there is a whole different mentality there and this type of behavior is actually institutionalized and encouraged. There are still too many who do not believe women should serve with men and believe they can subject women to this disgusting treatment. Sad thing is they learn it at home first.
It's wrong and the military needs to clean up it's act.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Not really. This from The Human Rights Watch:
> 
> But prison life is particularly challenging for youthful offenders who come to prison as
> children or as very young adults. They often lack the physical and mental coping
> ...


There isn't the will to treat youthful offenders differently than adults in many states. Especially the states that have the new "privately" run prisons. More inmates means more money. Usually, these youth end up victimized themselves by other inmates or become more harden in prison and go on to commit even more serious crimes than they were first incarcerated for and that just perpetuates the cycle of repeat offenders and no solution to this problem is found.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitish said:


> For decent clothes go to Patagonia, LandsEnd, REI or LLBean.


I know. It's just that once in awhile I want sometching a little different, and that's when I run into trouble.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Not that I do not concur with the clothing aspect of our conversation, but what about the male part of this issue. Who is raising these guys who rape?


The same people who think it is OK to have women's images on targets. The oinkers both men and women who belong to organizations like the NRA and whose religion teaches women are subservient to men.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

momeee said:


> Sometimes no one, given the households with overworked moms as the sole parent. Then look at what the male children grow up with on TV, movies, music-lyrics, video games, etc. I'd suspect that if they had strong role models it would have a positive effect for curtailing some of the views young men have, but disrespect for women is so prevalent. Many women do not have much self respect, so how can they demand it of their sons?
> Most parents do not have the energy to take away or stop the above mentioned forms of entertainment, do they? At an early age the above are used to keep the kids quiet - and unsupervised. Add to that kids' lack of impulse control, the need for immediate gratification, anger, the need to 'prove' their manhood, or improve their feeling about sense of self...wow as I start writing this it is so very complex.
> Does anyone think the laws governing juvenile offenders are too lenient? I don't have much experience there, but when I see or read local issues (not necessarily rape, but violence against girls), it seems that kids get off so easily, even with repeat offenses.


But momee, where are the parents? Kids have to learn these values at home. I'm sick of people blaming outside forces for their lack of parenting.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think we are talking about two very separate issues.

1. The sexualizing of women through dress.

2. The demeaning attitudes toward rape which takes us 
back decades.

If we don't separate them, it seems that we buy into blaming the victims.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> The same people who think it is OK to have women's images on targets. The oinkers both men and women who belong to organizations like the NRA and whose religion teaches women are subservient to men.


Exactly--women have always been expected to distort their minds and bodies to please men. Think of push up bras, girdles, corsets, foot binding...each example worse than the last.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> But momee, where are the parents? Kids have to learn these values at home. I'm sick of people blaming outside forces for their lack of parenting.


You are absolutely right. It is the responsibility of the parents to raise their children. Unfortunately so many are willing to abdicate that responsibility to the school,religious organization, or in many cases, the parent is unable for a variety of reasons to be a responsible parent. There are too many contributing societal ills to list. I'm sure most of us here are familiar with many. What I wrote earlier regarding outside influences, are a direct result of the unable or incapable parent to take responsibility. So yes, the buck stops at the parents door.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I have a 5 year old granddaughter. I had a hard time finding something I would want her to wear. I guess it is time to get out the sewing machine. But then some of the new patterns aren't much better. Good thing I still have the ones I used for my daughter.


I have been doing that, with pleasing results. Thus I put out a request on another thread for info on reliable, sturdy sewing machines as mine died. The little girls seem to love the simple creations but when they get older, peer pressure rears its ugly head...


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> The same people who think it is OK to have women's images on targets. The oinkers both men and women who belong to organizations like the NRA and whose religion teaches women are subservient to men.


What is the name of that religion - Dominionism??? Is that right?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Sounds right to me, GW


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

momeee said:


> I have been doing that, with pleasing results. Thus I put out a request on another thread for info on reliable, sturdy sewing machines as mine died. The little girls seem to love the simple creations but when they get older, peer pressure rears its ugly head...


I think that sometimes we forget the impact of peer pressure - on teens especially. As if being a teen isn't difficult enough. As one who, in high school, was short, underdeveloped, naturally curly hair with a big nose, I believe I can truly understand their dilemma. And I wish that I could tell everyone that they are all valued as people - regardless of looks, intelligence, etc.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I agree.I didn't have the keeping up with the designer clothes problem at school. I wore a uniform from kindergarten through 12th grade. I sewed for my daughter all of her play clothes and dresses through the 6th grade. If she wanted a designer anything, she had to earn it.After saving for 5 months to get a T shirt, she came to me and said "Wow, Mom, that's a lot of money just for 1 T shirt. She returned it the same day and bought 5 non designer labels for the same price.She learned young.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I agree.I didn't have the keeping up with the designer clothes problem at school. I wore a uniform from kindergarten through 12th grade. I sewed for my daughter all of her play clothes and dresses through the 6th grade. If she wanted a designer anything, she had to earn it.After saving for 5 months to get a T shirt, she came to me and said "Wow, Mom, that's a lot of money just for 1 T shirt. She returned it the same day and bought 5 non designer labels for the same price.She learned young.


I still don't buy designer - I just can't justify the cost! My sister-in-law is married to a doctor and she bought a Marc Jacobs purse and the price tag was $5,325. I saw it!!! With my own eyes!! I would have spent that money on carpet, a trip to Europe, down payment on a car - anything but a purse! It's a purse!!! I don't think I'll ever get over that!


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Try to buy a "t-shirt" to wear around the house. When I go shopping the first thing I look at is the neckline, which is usually a big deep V-neck or scoop neck, and I if don't want it skin-tight I have to buy XL, which I'm not! I'm not saying that if a woman dresses a certain way she's "asking for it," but I really have a hard time understanding why it's OK to show so much. Worse yet, this trend isn't just bought into by younger women and girls. I see many women walking around with clothes that I think are inappropriate outside of the yard.
> I never thought of myself as prudish, but I guess maybe I am??


No, not prudish; you simply have good taste :~D.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> I still don't buy designer - I just can't justify the cost! My sister-in-law is married to a doctor and she bought a Marc Jacobs purse and the price tag was $5,325. I saw it!!! With my own eyes!! I would have spent that money on carpet, a trip to Europe, down payment on a car - anything but a purse! It's a purse!!! I don't think I'll ever get over that!


Right, GW? I would rather spend that money on a nice trip. In a year the purse will be out of style. But a trip you will remember for life.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Try to buy a "t-shirt" to wear around the house. When I go shopping the first thing I look at is the neckline, which is usually a big deep V-neck or scoop neck, and I if don't want it skin-tight I have to buy XL, which I'm not! I'm not saying that if a woman dresses a certain way she's "asking for it," but I really have a hard time understanding why it's OK to show so much. Worse yet, this trend isn't just bought into by younger women and girls. I see many women walking around with clothes that I think are inappropriate outside of the yard.
> I never thought of myself as prudish, but I guess maybe I am??


No Andrea, you are classic. My mother always dressed modestly, but fashionably. Her clothes were tailored and timeless. If she wanted to give them a new look, she would throw on some trendy jewelry or scarf.
I dress the same way. There is nothing worse than seeing an older woman trying to dress like a teenager. I have found that the Chaps line at Kohl's is very nice, non revealing, and quite a bargain.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Exactly--women have always been expected to distort their minds and bodies to please men. Think of push up bras, girdles, corsets, foot binding...each example worse than the last.


The high heeled shoes women wear now. there is actually an injection of silica or something similar, that numbs the feet to the aches of high heels so women can wear stiletto heels all day every day. Ug!


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> I have a 5 year old granddaughter. I had a hard time finding something I would want her to wear. I guess it is time to get out the sewing machine. But then some of the new patterns aren't much better. Good thing I still have the ones I used for my daughter.


Patterns for pants and tops do not change too very much, it is the fabric and the embellishments that make things current looking. I knitted some lace trim out of dk colored cotton and sewed it onto a pair of dungarees for an 8 year old (2nd grade) all her friends wanted pants like hers.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Good idea, peacegoddess!


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## medusa (Nov 20, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> I am, too. And I can't believe how many women on this forum (not this thread) are constantly seeking the approval of others for their life choices along with their knitting/crocheting choices. I thought the goal in growing up was to become independent?


Touche! I thought I was being overly critical when I read certain posts.


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## ddemer (Jun 1, 2011)

and "only in America" do sick people have to walk way to the back of the store for their medication, while well people buy their cigaretts right near the door!!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> The high heeled shoes women wear now. there is actually an injection of silica or something similar, that numbs the feet to the aches of high heels so women can wear stiletto heels all day every day. Ug!


Owee! I pushed my high heels to the back of the closet more than a decade ago, when I broke two toes on my right foot. Best move I ever made.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I haven't worn heels in years either. And my feet feel much better. Ah, comfort!



susanmos2000 said:


> Owee! I pushed my high heels to the back of the closet more than a decade ago, when I broke two toes on my right foot. Best move I ever made.


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## ummirain (Feb 1, 2013)

Actually, my wealthy brother-in-law gets paid 7 figures to not plant on his upstate ny farm to keep prices of wheat/grain high. I chose to not marry for money...........that was not a bad decision, but a moral one.


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## ummirain (Feb 1, 2013)

Ross..................sr citizen 10% off on Mondays.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

ddemer said:


> and "only in America" do sick people have to walk way to the back of the store for their medication, while well people buy their cigaretts right near the door!!


I never thought about that. You are right! But if it's any consolation, if they keep smoking, they'll be pushing their oxygen tanks to the back of the store for their meds.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> I haven't worn heels in years either. And my feet feel much better. Ah, comfort!


I had a foot surgery and after that all of the high heels went to the Goodwill. I canwear a low pump or a small wedge.


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## Dsynr (Jun 3, 2011)

I didn't see where Mr. buffet was specific in his definition of "properly".


Katsch said:


> The key words " if the government would spend it properly"


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