# L.O.L.L.. #9



## cookiequeen

Designer1234 said:


> That was when I started to believe that people should be able to chose when they are suffering like he did. He could hardly talk - his was at the join between the Stomach and the Esophagus so it spread into the stomach too. It was horrendous for him and for us watching him and able to do nothing. The doctors were wonderful but there was no cure as it was too advanced. He must have been suffering for some time before he admitted it. We are okay, it is something we live with. I lost a sids baby girl at 3 months, before they knew what it was, and that in some ways was worse, but certainly just as bad as at that time no one knew what caused it so I felt guilt for years that I had done something wrong. When they announced that they had discovered Sudden infant death Syndrome (SIDS) it was as if a huge weight had been lifted that I had carried privately for a long time. We survive. And we carry on. Thanks for your kindness, all of you.


Shirley, I am sorry for your pain and suffering. You wonder how you'll get through things, but you just go on because there's no real choice. My sister had 5 kids and here she is at age 89 with 3 left. She has a strong constitution, I think, just like you, Shirley. You don't grieve any less, you just get through it all somehow. I'm sending you hugs, prayers, and good positive energy.


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## BrattyPatty

Hello ladies!
Sorry I have been MIA. I had to get my shopping done and shipped this week.
Designer 1234, you will always have friends in here that care about you and yours. We have strong shoulders any time that you need them.
I am sorry to hear about your BIL, JB. 
Hugs to all!


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## Designer1234

BrattyPatty said:


> Hello ladies!
> Sorry I have been MIA. I had to get my shopping done and shipped this week.
> Designer 1234, you will always have friends in here that care about you and yours. We have strong shoulders any time that you need them.
> I am sorry to hear about your BIL, JB.
> Hugs to all!


Thanks Patty. Glad to see you back.


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## BrattyPatty

Designer1234 said:


> Thanks Patty. Glad to see you back.


I have been going through my stash picking out colors for your KAL in Jan.
I will be ready to sit and knit.!


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## Knitted by Nan

Designer1234 said:


> Check out the new thread called bullying. Makes you wonder. I wish I hadn't gone there.
> 
> I just talked to my son, (Rob's younger brother) he said that it is private contractors, contracted by the Post office (Crown Corporation) so I thought that was interesting. He works for them part time as a fill in job as he is retired.
> 
> A friend suggested him so he thought he might as well work there over Christmas.


I read and was tempted to reply. I had typed a reply but wanted to check a date. Unfortunately when I did my post disappeared into the ether of cyberspace. I lost the lot and I just did not feel like retyping it, it would only have been misunderstood and used as fuel for their fires. Perhaps it was something or someone from the great universal consciousness telling me not to respond, not to post there. I will read but not respond.

Hope you and hubby are both feeling better, continue to smile and laugh and enjoy the company of good friends and family, just as we enjoy your company here. :thumbup:


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## SQM

Help! help!

I am in Boston for a long week end with my Evil Republican Twin and his long time partner - Evil Republican Alynn. They are tying me to a chair and indoctrinating me into their Evil cabal. I go home Monday afternoon. Can I withstand their insistence that I am really a Republican? Alynn just said that Obama is dating Harry Styles. "Obama is off the deep end and no one cares what he says anymore." Evil Alynn likes Obama and Cheney. She says Obama is a Socialist/Communist. Anti-ObamaCare of course. Help!


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## Knitted by Nan

Designer1234 said:


> It was a blessing in the end. He suffered so-- it was fairly quick - he had pain , went to the doctor - they did an upper GI and he was full of the cancer. They put in a stent hoping he could eat. Didn't work so he couldn't eat. He lived on
> drinks like boost and ensure -They had him on extremely strong pain killers which didn't always work. They did try radiation but he was past the stage for chemo. They gave him 2 months and he fought for 6 .I was thankful when he passed away. He was a heavy smoker right to the end. So sad. I should have kept it to myself instead of making others sad but it caught up I guess.


I am sorry for your suffering and loss. Please accept my condolences. From a Buddhist perspective all I can say is that he has been released from his present realm of suffering. I know you do not believe in reincarnation but please do not take offence if I say I wish him a pleasant and happy reincarnation in the next realm of existence. This future realm of existence could be interpreted as your heaven,


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## Designer1234

EveMCooke said:


> I am sorry for your suffering and loss. Please accept my condolences. From a Buddhist perspective all I can say is that he has been released from his present realm of suffering. I know you do not believe in reincarnation but please do not take offence if I say I wish him a pleasant and happy reincarnation in the next realm of existence. This future realm of existence could be interpreted as your heaven,


Thankyou -- I appreciate that you saying that. I have two friends who are buddhists and I admire them and it gives me comfort that you care enough to write to me. Thanks. I applaud you and admire you. I know that I was so thankful when he finally stopped suffering.


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## MarilynKnits

SQM said:


> Help! help!
> 
> I am in Boston for a long week end with my Evil Republican Twin and his long time partner - Evil Republican Alynn. They are tying me to a chair and indoctrinating me into their Evil cabal. I go home Monday afternoon. Can I withstand their insistence that I am really a Republican? Alynn just said that Obama is dating Harry Styles. "Obama is off the deep end and no one cares what he says anymore." Evil Alynn likes Obama and Cheney. She says Obama is a Socialist/Communist. Anti-ObamaCare of course. Help!


How amazing that a lovely person (you) should have a relative who is a tool of the capitalist conspiracy to suck the country dry. Unless the Evils are extremely wealthy, their political passions will end up biting them in the ass - hard. And they will have nobody to blame except themselves and others as deluded as they.


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## jbandsma

SQM said:


> Help! help!
> 
> I am in Boston for a long week end with my Evil Republican Twin and his long time partner - Evil Republican Alynn. They are tying me to a chair and indoctrinating me into their Evil cabal. I go home Monday afternoon. Can I withstand their insistence that I am really a Republican? Alynn just said that Obama is dating Harry Styles. "Obama is off the deep end and no one cares what he says anymore." Evil Alynn likes Obama and Cheney. She says Obama is a Socialist/Communist. Anti-ObamaCare of course. Help!


They aren't making you watch Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh are they? You poor thing. Well, if necessary, you can always claim justifiable mayhem.


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## Wombatnomore

Poor Purl said:


> Do they show up next day with a hangdog look on their faces - I mean a hangpossum look - and apologize?


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Wombatnomore

SQM said:


> Help! help!
> 
> I am in Boston for a long week end with my Evil Republican Twin and his long time partner - Evil Republican Alynn. They are tying me to a chair and indoctrinating me into their Evil cabal. I go home Monday afternoon. Can I withstand their insistence that I am really a Republican? Alynn just said that Obama is dating Harry Styles. "Obama is off the deep end and no one cares what he says anymore." Evil Alynn likes Obama and Cheney. She says Obama is a Socialist/Communist. Anti-ObamaCare of course. Help!


Ha, ha, ha! I get the feeling you're a captive audience until Monday so get used to it. Loved the idea that the President is dating Harry Styles. :XD:

You, a republican? Nahhhhhh!


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## SQM

MarilynKnits said:


> How amazing that a lovely person (you) should have a relative who is a tool of the capitalist conspiracy to suck the country dry. Unless the Evils are extremely wealthy, their political passions will end up biting them in the ass - hard. And they will have nobody to blame except themselves and others as deluded as they.


Actually she is very wealthy and knows her class interest. My twin is retired but made some millions in his day so actually they are pro-business and unwilling to help people on welfare thru their taxes. But war seems justified. I love that term The Evils. I will call them that all day.

Wombat is so cool. She is probably the only one who knows about Harry Styles without having to google him. And to Jband - I refuse to listen to Fox so we settle on CNN. I wanna go home.


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## MaidInBedlam

Wombatnomore said:


> I love stories about the resident wild life and yours is very cute. Although my possums can be little blighters, there's nothing I wouldn't do for them if they needed help (as long as they stay outside and keep their whizz and poop to themselves).


We also have some endangered species of small frog that comes back to the creek bank to find love and make tadpoles.In the spring we hear a croak or two for a few days, then what sounds like a couple of dozen frogs croaking and then suddenly there seem to be about a million frogs croaking. We know there can't possibly be that many but they are very loud. Sometimes we have to close the windows to have a conversation!

Our creek has a remarkable population of all sorts of wildlife, even though it' in a very built up urban area. A lot of it has been diverted through culverts. Our bit is in the open for only about a 100 feet but that bit is amazingly populated. We also have a lot of hummingbirds. It's interesting to try to feed them and keep the squirrels out of the bird feeders.


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## NJG

Poor Purl said:


> This is an obvious example of a death sentence on an institution that has existed since the founding. Not a single business is expected to fund anything 75 years in the future, and many of them seem to fund their employee benefits only until next year and get away with it. Enron got away with what they stole from their employees, just not from shareholders.


Here is something our wonderful congress is doing in the spending bill among other things, all things that are going to screw the little guy.

http://www.infowars.com/new-federal-law-targets-retirement-benefit-cuts-we-thought-our-pension-was-secure/


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## NJG

Sorry about all you loss Shirley. It is so hard to watch someone suffer and not be able to help them. I have often said we treat our animals more humanely than we do our loved ones. Loosing a child is the most awful experience I can imagine and no it is not suppose to be that way. Parents should go first. 
I just lost a very dear friend, best friends for 45 years. She had fallen and though her hip hurt, they said it wasn't broken, so they did physical therapy and she went into the care center for some rehab. She was able to go home for awhile, but couldn't walk as too much pain so had to go back to the care center. She finally insisted they do an MRI and yes her hip was broken, but too late to do much about it. Had they done that in the beginning, they could have put a pin in it, because of the kind of break it was, but not then. At that point she just gave up. She lived about 2 hrs away and I wanted to go visit, but she kept saying not yet as she was very emotional and said she just couldn't handle it. Her daughter was with her, when she passed, but I did not get to see her again, just talked on the phone. 
If anyone ever has a possible broken bone and an x-ray shows that it isn't broken, don't believe them. A lot of times a bone needs to start to heal and calcify before it will show up on an X-ray. I had another friend with the same thing happen on her foot and they kept saying it wasn't broken, when it actually was.

Got this picture from my son in law yesterday of my grand children being bell ringers for the salvation army in their red kettle program. It brightened my day, hope it does your too.


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## jbandsma

NJG said:


> Here is something our wonderful congress is doing in the spending bill among other things, all things that are going to screw the little guy.
> 
> http://www.infowars.com/new-federal-law-targets-retirement-benefit-cuts-we-thought-our-pension-was-secure/


Kind of strange, though, that that piece is blaming all the problems on things like unions, overspending and anything the middle class has worked for instead of things like, cutting taxes to give the already obscenely rich more.

I have never, and will never, understand the logic of the last few years that says "if we CUT our income, we can do more and have better things".

It's like telling a housewife that she can lose what's coming in and still afford steak and lobster all week.


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## DGreen

NJG said:


> Here is something our wonderful congress is doing in the spending bill among other things, all things that are going to screw the little guy.
> 
> http://www.infowars.com/new-federal-law-targets-retirement-benefit-cuts-we-thought-our-pension-was-secure/


Site run by Alex Jones, who is known for being a conspiracy theorist.

That is not to say we shouldn't pay close attention, but I think research from other sources is in order here. An example of Jones' views:

Jones theory is that President Obama and the media are combining forces to stir up so much racial unrest that it will give them a pretext to declare martial law and impose a dictatorship. Joining Jones in this theory have been right-wing pundits such as Austin Miles at Renew America; radio host Rick Wiles; onetime presidential candidate Alan Keyes; and Glenn Beck, who has been pitching a version of the theory for over a year now.

And then there are the FEMA camps he believes in.


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## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> Kind of strange, though, that that piece is blaming all the problems on things like unions, overspending and anything the middle class has worked for instead of things like, cutting taxes to give the already obscenely rich more.
> 
> I have never, and will never, understand the logic of the last few years that says "if we CUT our income, we can do more and have better things".
> 
> It's like telling a housewife that she can lose what's coming in and still afford steak and lobster all week.


You can't understand the logic because it isn't logic. It's the wealthy buying our government and making sure all regulations and taxes are eliminated - on them. The model cannot be sustained.


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## NJG

DGreen said:


> Site run by Alex Jones, who is known for being a conspiracy theorist.
> 
> That is not to say we shouldn't pay close attention, but I think research from other sources is in order here. An example of Jones' views:
> 
> Jones theory is that President Obama and the media are combining forces to stir up so much racial unrest that it will give them a pretext to declare martial law and impose a dictatorship. Joining Jones in this theory have been right-wing pundits such as Austin Miles at Renew America; radio host Rick Wiles; onetime presidential candidate Alan Keyes; and Glenn Beck, who has been pitching a version of the theory for over a year now.
> 
> And then there are the FEMA camps he believes in.


http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4519019/pension-cuts-2015-federal-spending-bill

Some of these are kinda funny!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/12/09/whats-in-the-spending-bill-we-skim-it-so-you-dont-have-to/


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## cookiequeen

O


NJG said:


> Sorry about all you loss Shirley. It is so hard to watch someone suffer and not be able to help them. I have often said we treat our animals more humanely than we do our loved ones. Loosing a child is the most awful experience I can imagine and no it is not suppose to be that way. Parents should go first.
> I just lost a very dear friend, best friends for 45 years. She had fallen and though her hip hurt, they said it wasn't broken, so they did physical therapy and she went into the care center for some rehab. She was able to go home for awhile, but couldn't walk as too much pain so had to go back to the care center. She finally insisted they do an MRI and yes her hip was broken, but too late to do much about it. Had they done that in the beginning, they could have put a pin in it, because of the kind of break it was, but not then. At that point she just gave up. She lived about 2 hrs away and I wanted to go visit, but she kept saying not yet as she was very emotional and said she just couldn't handle it. Her daughter was with her, when she passed, but I did not get to see her again, just talked on the phone.
> If anyone ever has a possible broken bone and an x-ray shows that it isn't broken, don't believe them. A lot of times a bone needs to start to heal and calcify before it will show up on an X-ray. I had another friend with the same thing happen on her foot and they kept saying it wasn't broken, when it actually was.
> 
> Got this picture from my son in law yesterday of my grand children being bell ringers for the salvation army in their red kettle program. It brightened my day, hope it does your too.


Sorry to hear about your loss of a friend. I usually think of broken bones as something that doctors can find right away and fix pretty well. I guess it wasn't that straightforward. Awful!
I do like the cute grandkids' picture! Did grandma make the hats?


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## NJG

cookiequeen said:


> O
> 
> Sorry to hear about your loss of a friend. I usually think of broken bones as something that doctors can find right away and fix pretty well. I guess it wasn't that straightforward. Awful!
> I do like the cute grandkids' picture! Did grandma make the hats?


No I didn't make the hats, new hats and slippers this year though.


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## Wombatnomore

Frightening news here. Within the last 40 minutes, it appears that members of ISIS are currently holding hostages at a Café in Sydney's central business/shopping district. The IS flag is being held up to a window. Hostages can be seen holding their hands up:

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/12/15/10/00/major-police-operation-in-sydneys-martin-place

Recently I posted that it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this type of thing was to happen in the cities and suburbs of my state Victoria. Well, it's happening in Sydney as I write. A huge section of central Sydney has been evacuated and cordoned off.

Why wasn't any intelligence picked up on? Because they've found a way of communicating without electronics. Knew it.


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## Poor Purl

SQM said:


> Actually she is very wealthy and knows her class interest. My twin is retired but made some millions in his day so actually they are pro-business and unwilling to help people on welfare thru their taxes. But war seems justified. I love that term The Evils. I will call them that all day.
> 
> Wombat is so cool. She is probably the only one who knows about Harry Styles without having to google him. And to Jband - I refuse to listen to Fox so we settle on CNN. I wanna go home.


Wasn't there a sign on their door saying "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here"? You didn't listen, did you?


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## DGreen

Wombatnomore said:


> Frightening news here. Within the last 40 minutes, it appears that members of ISIS are currently holding hostages at a Café in Sydney's central business/shopping district. The IS flag is being held up to a window. Hostages can be seen holding their hands up:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/12/15/10/00/major-police-operation-in-sydneys-martin-place
> 
> Recently I posted that it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this type of thing was to happen in the cities and suburbs of my state Victoria. Well, it's happening in Sydney as I write. A huge section of central Sydney has been evacuated and cordoned off.
> 
> Why wasn't any intelligence picked up on? Because they've found a way of communicating without electronics. Knew it.


Awful.


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## Wombatnomore

NJG said:


> No I didn't make the hats, new hats and slippers this year though.


So sorry you've lost your friend. Awful thing to go through.


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## Poor Purl

NJG said:


> Here is something our wonderful congress is doing in the spending bill among other things, all things that are going to screw the little guy.
> 
> http://www.infowars.com/new-federal-law-targets-retirement-benefit-cuts-we-thought-our-pension-was-secure/


And the new Repub majority hasn't moved in yet. I can't wait to see what they do next year.

Oops, almost forgot.


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## Wombatnomore

MaidInBedlam said:


> We also have some endangered species of small frog that comes back to the creek bank to find love and make tadpoles.In the spring we hear a croak or two for a few days, then what sounds like a couple of dozen frogs croaking and then suddenly there seem to be about a million frogs croaking. We know there can't possibly be that many but they are very loud. Sometimes we have to close the windows to have a conversation!
> 
> Our creek has a remarkable population of all sorts of wildlife, even though it' in a very built up urban area. A lot of it has been diverted through culverts. Our bit is in the open for only about a 100 feet but that bit is amazingly populated. We also have a lot of hummingbirds. It's interesting to try to feed them and keep the squirrels out of the bird feeders.


Frogs! How delightful. The area where you live sounds like a haven for animals and creatures. I envy you!

Earlier this year I went to an evening picnic in this beautiful wetlands area and we were sitting there quietly chatting when all of a sudden, the croaks started and I couldn't believe it. I hadn't heard the croaks of frogs since childhood! At the time, I mentioned that I had remembered there was concern that frogs were nigh on extinct and a friend said he'd heard that they're making a resurgence. Comforting to know.


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## Poor Purl

Wombatnomore said:


> Frightening news here. Within the last 40 minutes, it appears that members of ISIS are currently holding hostages at a Café in Sydney's central business/shopping district. The IS flag is being held up to a window. Hostages can be seen holding their hands up:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/12/15/10/00/major-police-operation-in-sydneys-martin-place
> 
> Recently I posted that it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this type of thing was to happen in the cities and suburbs of my state Victoria. Well, it's happening in Sydney as I write. A huge section of central Sydney has been evacuated and cordoned off.
> 
> Why wasn't any intelligence picked up on? Because they've found a way of communicating without electronics. Knew it.


Flag signals? Sign language? Snail mail?

Seriously, this is very bad news.


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## jbandsma

Poor Purl said:


> Flag signals? Sign language? Snail mail?
> 
> Seriously, this is very bad news.


More likely carrier pigeons. We've grown so dependent on electronics that even those who should know better have dismissed the old methods as something nobody would ever use now.

Pigeons helped win WWI, hot air balloons were in use during the Civil War, (as were pigeons), designated drop spots during the cold war with coded messages on paper. Dollar bills folded in certain ways. Ways that take a little more time but are more effective for that.


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## MarilynKnits

NJG said:


> Got this picture from my son in law yesterday of my grand children being bell ringers for the salvation army in their red kettle program. It brightened my day, hope it does your too.


What a couple of cuties. And learning to help others at an early age. You have a couple of lovely reasons to be a proud grandmother.


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## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> More likely carrier pigeons. We've grown so dependent on electronics that even those who should know better have dismissed the old methods as something nobody would ever use now.
> 
> Pigeons helped win WWI, hot air balloons were in use during the Civil War, (as were pigeons), designated drop spots during the cold war with coded messages on paper. Dollar bills folded in certain ways. Ways that take a little more time but are more effective for that.


Forgot about pigeons. I did think of smoke signals and cans on string but didn't want to look too smart.


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## jbandsma

Poor Purl said:


> Forgot about pigeons. I did think of smoke signals and cans on string but didn't want to look too smart.


Especially in a city, who's going to take any special notice of a pigeon?


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## Wombatnomore

Poor Purl said:


> Flag signals? Sign language? Snail mail?
> 
> Seriously, this is very bad news.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: Thanks for making me laugh. Needed that.

It is a shocking situation. Just in the last 10 minutes, footage was shown of one of the hostages, a female, making the slash sign across her neck. It's thought that she was told to do this by the idiot holding them.


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## DGreen

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: Thanks for making me laugh. Needed that.
> 
> It is a shocking situation. Just in the last 10 minutes, footage was shown of one of the hostages, a female, making the slash sign across her neck. It's thought that she was told to do this by the idiot holding them.


I have a very bad feeling about this. I sure hope the police are exploring the air conditioning vents, upstairs access, any possible way to rescue those people.


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## Wombatnomore

DGreen said:


> I have a very bad feeling about this. I sure hope the police are exploring the air conditioning vents, upstairs access, any possible way to rescue those people.


They were talking about that very thing just now. Yes, all areas in the building being cased out, exits, windows, aircon etc.

I too have a very bad feeling. Whether atrocities are committed by the perpetrators, or the police storm the place, there will be many, many tears shed today.


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## SQM

jbandsma said:


> More likely carrier pigeons. We've grown so dependent on electronics that even those who should know better have dismissed the old methods as something nobody would ever use now.
> 
> Pigeons helped win WWI, hot air balloons were in use during the Civil War, (as were pigeons), designated drop spots during the cold war with coded messages on paper. Dollar bills folded in certain ways. Ways that take a little more time but are more effective for that.


Carrier pigeons are extinct. Wombat - I am shocked as usual by your international news report. Sounds like a nightmare. Where does Evem live?

It just made CNN news. It is hard not to be full of hate.


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## jbandsma

SQM said:


> Carrier pigeons are extinct. Wombat - I am shocked as usual by your international news report. Sounds like a nightmare. Where does Evem live?


No they aren't. You're thinking of passenger pigeons.

We have pigeon clubs even here in Charleston. They train and race them. And yes, still use them to carry messages.

Depending on the area, they are also called homing pigeons or messenger pigeons.


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## SQM

NYC must have a zillion pigeon clubs run by the members. How do you tell the difference between a passenger and a messenger pigeon?

On CNN, Wombat, they are saying a "possible" hostage situation. Keep us posted.


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## DGreen

SQM said:


> NYC must have a zillion pigeon clubs run by the members. How do you tell the difference between a passenger and a messenger pigeon?
> 
> On CNN, Wombat, they are saying a "possible" hostage situation. Keep us posted.


No "possible" to it. Definitely hostages.

Passenger pigeons are extinct, so you probably won't need to figure that one out.


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## BrattyPatty

jbandsma said:


> Kind of strange, though, that that piece is blaming all the problems on things like unions, overspending and anything the middle class has worked for instead of things like, cutting taxes to give the already obscenely rich more.
> 
> I have never, and will never, understand the logic of the last few years that says "if we CUT our income, we can do more and have better things".
> 
> It's like telling a housewife that she can lose what's coming in and still afford steak and lobster all week.


Very good analogy , JB!


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## Designer1234

I pray for those being held hostage in Sydney. It sounds as if it is definitely a hostage situation as Sydney News has been brought onto CNN. It is right down town near the Opera House, which has been evacuated. Supreme Court has been evacuated. Waiting for PM to come on air. 

Islamic flag in window. No contact from the hostage taker. Sounds as if there are still a lot of questions. oh dear.

They say it isn't the ISIS flag but it is an islamic flag.


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## NJG

Wombatnomore said:


> Frightening news here. Within the last 40 minutes, it appears that members of ISIS are currently holding hostages at a Café in Sydney's central business/shopping district. The IS flag is being held up to a window. Hostages can be seen holding their hands up:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/12/15/10/00/major-police-operation-in-sydneys-martin-place
> 
> Recently I posted that it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this type of thing was to happen in the cities and suburbs of my state Victoria. Well, it's happening in Sydney as I write. A huge section of central Sydney has been evacuated and cordoned off.
> 
> Why wasn't any intelligence picked up on? Because they've found a way of communicating without electronics. Knew it.


How awful so close to home. How will we ever get rid of them. I think anything can happen anywhere at any time. We all need to be very aware of our surroundings.


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## jbandsma

SQM said:


> NYC must have a zillion pigeon clubs run by the members. How do you tell the difference between a passenger and a messenger pigeon?


If it's not stuffed in a museum, it could be a messenger/homing/carrier pigeon. It's mostly in how they're raised and trained.


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## NJG

MarilynKnits said:


> What a couple of cuties. And learning to help others at an early age. You have a couple of lovely reasons to be a proud grandmother.


Thank you, that I am.


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## NJG

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: Thanks for making me laugh. Needed that.
> 
> It is a shocking situation. Just in the last 10 minutes, footage was shown of one of the hostages, a female, making the slash sign across her neck. It's thought that she was told to do this by the idiot holding them.


Have they given any indication of what they want? I will be watching the news for updates.


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## Poor Purl

SQM said:


> Carrier pigeons are extinct. Wombat - I am shocked as usual by your international news report. Sounds like a nightmare. Where does Evem live?
> 
> It just made CNN news. It is hard not to be full of hate.


*Passenger* pigeons are extinct. Carrier pigeons aren't a particular species; many kinds of pigeons can be trained.


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## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> No they aren't. You're thinking of passenger pigeons.
> 
> We have pigeon clubs even here in Charleston. They train and race them. And yes, still use them to carry messages.
> 
> Depending on the area, they are also called homing pigeons or messenger pigeons.


Phooey, you beat me, and had more information, too.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

SQM said:


> Carrier pigeons are extinct. Wombat - I am shocked as usual by your international news report. Sounds like a nightmare. Where does Evem live?
> 
> It just made CNN news. It is hard not to be full of hate.


Hi, I had not seen this news, I have not turned on the TV yet and had not read the bulletins on the PC. I had been very concerned about my daughter who had an out of control bushfire only 1 km from her house. They were evacuated to an emergency shelter, but the danger has passed and she is OK.

It is now 2.07 pm (14.07) on Monday 17th here, and at times I have to stop and work out the time differences between the time here and the time that shows on the KP postings.

I live 3,938.2 km from Sydney, on the other side of the continent. Sydney is 3 hours ahead of us, as is Wombat in Melbourne.

I have just glanced at the news reports on the ABC website, I will turn the tellie on in a few minutes to see what is happening, although the ABC news report is only a few minutes old, and possibly more up to the minute than ABC 24 hours lived.


----------



## Wombatnomore

SQM said:


> Carrier pigeons are extinct. Wombat - I am shocked as usual by your international news report. Sounds like a nightmare. Where does Evem live?
> 
> It just made CNN news. It is hard not to be full of hate.


Evem? Enlighten me?

This guy (hostage taker) is making his demands through the hostages. Apparently one demand was for an actual 'IS' flag. Strange.


----------



## Wombatnomore

EveMCooke said:


> Hi, I had not seen this news, I have not turned on the TV yet and had not read the bulletins on the PC. I had been very concerned about my daughter who had an out of control bushfire only 1 km from her house. They were evacuated to an emergency shelter, but the danger has passed and she is OK.
> 
> It is now 2.07 pm (14.07) on Monday 17th here, and at times I have to stop and work out the time differences between the time here and the time that shows on the KP postings.
> 
> I live 3,938.2 km from Sydney, on the other side of the continent. Sydney is 3 hours ahead of us, as is Wombat in Melbourne.
> 
> I have just glanced at the news reports on the ABC website, I will turn the tellie on in a few minutes to see what is happening, although the ABC news report is only a few minutes old, and possibly more up to the minute than ABC 24 hours lived.


So glad your daughter and her property are safe Eve. Of course that was a priority. I'm very concerned about the fire season this year and hope and pray it won't be as bad as Black Saturday in 2009.

Info for anyone interested:

http://www.blacksaturdaybushfires.com.au/


----------



## SQM

Wombatnomore said:


> Evem? Enlighten me?
> 
> This guy (hostage taker) is making his demands through the hostages. Apparently one demand was for an actual 'IS' flag. Strange.


Eve M Cooke is Evem to me. But as you saw she is on the other side of OZ. Just read a NY Times report and it seems like it is still going on. I am trapped in Boston with the two Republican Evils but I am leaving for Saneville at 1:00. I know how the cafe hostages feel.


----------



## DGreen

SQM said:


> Eve M Cooke is Evem to me. But as you saw she is on the other side of OZ. Just read a NY Times report and it seems like it is still going on. I am trapped in Boston with the two Republican Evils but I am leaving for Saneville at 1:00. I know how the cafe hostages feel.


Hang in there!


----------



## susanmos2000

Wombatnomore said:


> Evem? Enlighten me?
> 
> This guy (hostage taker) is making his demands through the hostages. Apparently one demand was for an actual 'IS' flag. Strange.


Strange indeed. What else does he want?


----------



## susanmos2000

SQM said:


> Eve M Cooke is Evem to me. But as you saw she is on the other side of OZ. Just read a NY Times report and it seems like it is still going on. I am trapped in Boston with the two Republican Evils but I am leaving for Saneville at 1:00. I know how the cafe hostages feel.


Just a few more hours, SQM. You can make it!


----------



## Poor Purl

EveMCooke said:


> Hi, I had not seen this news, I have not turned on the TV yet and had not read the bulletins on the PC. I had been very concerned about my daughter who had an out of control bushfire only 1 km from her house. They were evacuated to an emergency shelter, but the danger has passed and she is OK.
> 
> It is now 2.07 pm (14.07) on Monday 17th here, and at times I have to stop and work out the time differences between the time here and the time that shows on the KP postings.
> 
> I live 3,938.2 km from Sydney, on the other side of the continent. Sydney is 3 hours ahead of us, as is Wombat in Melbourne.
> 
> I have just glanced at the news reports on the ABC website, I will turn the tellie on in a few minutes to see what is happening, although the ABC news report is only a few minutes old, and possibly more up to the minute than ABC 24 hours lived.


I'm glad your daughter is out of danger. But I'm not so sure about you. Do you in Oz have a time machine? Somehow you managed to advance two days on us. I knew you were 12 hours ahead, but we in the US won't get to Monday 17th until Wednesday.


----------



## Poor Purl

SQM said:


> Eve M Cooke is Evem to me. But as you saw she is on the other side of OZ. Just read a NY Times report and it seems like it is still going on. I am trapped in Boston with the two Republican Evils but I am leaving for Saneville at 1:00. I know how the cafe hostages feel.


Saneville? I've never thought of this city that way. Hold on, you're almost done.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

Poor Purl said:


> I'm glad your daughter is out of danger. But I'm not so sure about you. Do you in Oz have a time machine? Somehow you managed to advance two days on us. I knew you were 12 hours ahead, but we in the US won't get to Monday 17th until Wednesday.


Simple, a typo, so please excuse an old half blind Aussie. I did not notice the incorrect date. Of course it should have read 15th. It is now Tuesday, 16th, time 12.02 am. I checked at the bottom on the screen. I blame my stupid glasses, I have not been happy with these new glasses, they are not as good as my old ones and I am constantly having to increase the size of the font in order to read the screen.


----------



## Poor Purl

EveMCooke said:


> Simple, a typo, so please excuse an old half blind Aussie. I did not notice the incorrect date. Of course it should have read 15th. It is now Tuesday, 16th, time 12.02 am. I checked at the bottom on the screen. I blame my stupid glasses, I have not been happy with these new glasses, they are not as good as my old ones and I am constantly having to increase the size of the font in order to read the screen.


Excuses, excuses. I like my explanation better: you are a world leader, at least where the date is concerned.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

	5 MINUTES AGO DECEMBER 16, 2014 3:10AM

	Numerous hostages have left the Lindt cafe in Martin Place
	Police stormed the cafe and multiple shots were fired
	It is unclear what prompted the police to go in
LIVE: TWO people have reportedly been killed - one believed to be the gunman - in the Martin Place cafe siege after police stormed the location. As a result, the Lindt cafe siege is over.
Sky News reports at least four hostages have been injured, perhaps three critically, but their condition is unknown. Two of those required CPR at the scene. Meanwhile, a police officer has been injured with an amount of blood streaming from his head, Sky reports.

Sky said there were unconfirmed reports of two fatalities, one of which is believed to be the gunman. Some of the injured have been taken to St Vincents hospital.
Shortly before 2.45am (AEDT), police confirmed the siege was over.


Hostages fled from the Sydney cafe where a gunman had been holding an unknown number of people for more than 16 hours. Sky News says potentially there may be fatalities.
An Associated Press photographer near the scene heard a loud bang and saw five or six hostages running out of the Lindt Chocolat Cafe in downtown Sydney early this morning.


A group of hostages ran from central Sydneys Lindt cafe where a gunman was holed up with as many as 15 others.
Television footage initially showed a man running from the eatery with his arms raised, shortly after 2am (AEDT), before being patted down by police and escorted to safety.
Minutes later, two more men and two women raced outside and were directed away by police.
Their escape was followed by 10 seconds of rapid gunfire as heavily-armed police stormed the cafe in numbers, managing to release others.
A woman, apparently middle-aged, was carried from the scene injured.
A second volley of shots erupted before the cafe filled with police and paramedics.
A number of stretchers were wheeled into the building, however, it was unclear how many people may have been injured.
According to unconfirmed reports aired by Sky News, at least four people were injured.
There was no word on the fate of the gunman, earlier identified as 50-year-old self-styled sheik Man Haron Monis.
Meanwhile, a bomb disposal robot was sent into the cafe by police.

A man in a white shirt came out of the cafe first with his arms raised. He dropped to the floor and was searched by police before being whisked away.
Police have authorised the naming of Sheik Man Haron Monis, who is a self-styled preacher of Islamic State on bail for accessory to murder, as the gunman who was holding 15 terrified hostages in Sydneys Lindt cafe.
Haron was also charged this year with indecent and sexual assault of women in 2002. Monis was hit with an additional 40 charges in October.
The 49-year-old, originally from Iran who now lives in southwest Sydney, had previously sent offensive letters to the families of dead Australian soldiers, calling them murderer, The Daily Telegraph says.
He had a sawn-off shotgun and was a fringe Islamist, The Australian and Sky News reports.


----------



## DGreen

EveMCooke said:


> 	5 MINUTES AGO DECEMBER 16, 2014 3:10AM
> 
> 	Numerous hostages have left the Lindt cafe in Martin Place
> 	Police stormed the cafe and multiple shots were fired
> 	It is unclear what prompted the police to go in
> LIVE: TWO people have reportedly been killed - one believed to be the gunman - in the Martin Place cafe siege after police stormed the location. As a result, the Lindt cafe siege is over.
> Sky News reports at least four hostages have been injured, perhaps three critically, but their condition is unknown. Two of those required CPR at the scene. Meanwhile, a police officer has been injured with an amount of blood streaming from his head, Sky reports.
> 
> Sky said there were unconfirmed reports of two fatalities, one of which is believed to be the gunman. Some of the injured have been taken to St Vincents hospital.
> Shortly before 2.45am (AEDT), police confirmed the siege was over.
> 
> Hostages fled from the Sydney cafe where a gunman had been holding an unknown number of people for more than 16 hours. Sky News says potentially there may be fatalities.
> An Associated Press photographer near the scene heard a loud bang and saw five or six hostages running out of the Lindt Chocolat Cafe in downtown Sydney early this morning.
> 
> A group of hostages ran from central Sydneys Lindt cafe where a gunman was holed up with as many as 15 others.
> Television footage initially showed a man running from the eatery with his arms raised, shortly after 2am (AEDT), before being patted down by police and escorted to safety.
> Minutes later, two more men and two women raced outside and were directed away by police.
> Their escape was followed by 10 seconds of rapid gunfire as heavily-armed police stormed the cafe in numbers, managing to release others.
> A woman, apparently middle-aged, was carried from the scene injured.
> A second volley of shots erupted before the cafe filled with police and paramedics.
> A number of stretchers were wheeled into the building, however, it was unclear how many people may have been injured.
> According to unconfirmed reports aired by Sky News, at least four people were injured.
> There was no word on the fate of the gunman, earlier identified as 50-year-old self-styled sheik Man Haron Monis.
> Meanwhile, a bomb disposal robot was sent into the cafe by police.
> 
> A man in a white shirt came out of the cafe first with his arms raised. He dropped to the floor and was searched by police before being whisked away.
> Police have authorised the naming of Sheik Man Haron Monis, who is a self-styled preacher of Islamic State on bail for accessory to murder, as the gunman who was holding 15 terrified hostages in Sydneys Lindt cafe.
> Haron was also charged this year with indecent and sexual assault of women in 2002. Monis was hit with an additional 40 charges in October.
> The 49-year-old, originally from Iran who now lives in southwest Sydney, had previously sent offensive letters to the families of dead Australian soldiers, calling them murderer, The Daily Telegraph says.
> He had a sawn-off shotgun and was a fringe Islamist, The Australian and Sky News reports.


Glad it's over, but sad anyone was hurt.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

Wombatnomore said:


> Frogs! How delightful. The area where you live sounds like a haven for animals and creatures. I envy you!
> 
> Earlier this year I went to an evening picnic in this beautiful wetlands area and we were sitting there quietly chatting when all of a sudden, the croaks started and I couldn't believe it. I hadn't heard the croaks of frogs since childhood! At the time, I mentioned that I had remembered there was concern that frogs were nigh on extinct and a friend said he'd heard that they're making a resurgence. Comforting to know.


It's especially nice, considering we're in a really citified area. There are creeks all over the place, diverted into culverts, but out in the open like ours for a short run. I live across the creek from a shopping mall, for goodness sake, and there's a major street a couple of blocks away. But here I am, in a little spot with lots of trees and bushes and some creek.

Wildlife abounds. There's a little footpath along the creek that leads into the mall. There is some small species of dragonfly here that is an iridescent sky blue. They swarm around in the spring and are wonderful to see when the light hits them. No Monarch butterflies this year, unfortunately. The population has gone way, way down but they're supposed to be on the increase again, so say some naturalists.

"Our" creek turns into a flash flood if we get enough rain, which we just did. In a very short time the creek that's so small and peaceful turns into a flash flood that can be really dangerous. I kept calling the police earlier this year because a couple of homeless people put up their camp by the creek. I felt sort of mean-spirited but they were camping right at the water's edge. They'd have been swept away if they'd stayed. (Not to mention that the kids around here play in the creek and the homeless like to be by running water which makes a dandy toilet...)


----------



## MaidInBedlam

Courtesy of MSN:

*Police end Sydney hostage siege after 16 hours*

KRISTEN GELINEAU, Associated Press
47 mins ago
SYDNEY (AP)  A swarm of heavily armed police stormed a cafe in the heart of downtown Sydney early Tuesday, ending a siege where a gunman had been holding an unknown number of people hostage for more than 16 hours.

A police spokesman confirmed "the operation is over," but would not release any further details about the fate of the gunman or any of those who were inside.

After a flurry of loud bangs, police swooped into the Lindt Chocolat Cafe shortly after five or six hostages were seen running from the building.

After the police moved in, one weeping woman was helped out by the officers and at least two other people were wheeled out on stretchers.

The drama unfolded shortly after the gunman was identified by local media as Iranian-born Man Haron Monis, who is facing charges including sexual assault and accessory to murder in separate cases. A police official said "you wouldn't be wrong" in identifying the 50-year-old Monis as the gunman. Under department rules, officials do not identify themselves unless speaking at a formal news conference.

Monis has long been on officials' radar. Last year, he was sentenced to 300 hours of community service for writing offensive letters to families of soldiers killed in Afghanistan. He was later charged with being an accessory to the murder of his ex-wife. Earlier this year, he was charged with the sexual assault of a woman in 2002. He has been out on bail on the charges.

"This is a one-off random individual. It's not a concerted terrorism event or act. It's a damaged goods individual who's done something outrageous," his former lawyer, Manny Conditsis, told Australian Broadcasting Corp.

"His ideology is just so strong and so powerful that it clouds his vision for common sense and objectiveness," Conditsis said.

According to news reports, Australian police authorities confirmed the end of the siege after armed policemen stormed inside the cafe. Click through to see the images from the siege. In Pictures: Sydney hostage crisis ends after police storm cafe

The siege began around 9:45 a.m. in Martin Place, a plaza in Sydney's financial and shopping district that is packed with holiday shoppers this time of year. Many of those inside the cafe would have been taken captive as they stopped in for their morning coffees.

Throughout the day, several people were seen with their arms in the air and hands pressed against the window of the cafe, and two people holding up a black flag with the Shahada, or Islamic declaration of faith, written on it.

The Shahada translates as "There is no god but God and Muhammad is his messenger." It is considered the first of Islam's five pillars of faith, and is similar to the Lord's Prayer in Christianity. It is pervasive throughout Islamic culture, including the green flag of Saudi Arabia. Jihadis have used the Shahada in their own black flag.

Channel 10 news said it received a video in which a hostage in the cafe had relayed the gunman's demands. The station said police requested they not broadcast it, and New South Wales state police Commissioner Andrew Scipione separately asked all media that might be contacted by the gunman to urge him instead to talk to police.

A number of Australian Muslim groups condemned the hostage-taking in a joint statement and said the flag's inscription was a "testimony of faith that has been misappropriated by misguided individuals."

In a show of solidarity, many Australians offered on Twitter to accompany people dressed in Muslim clothes who were afraid of a backlash from the cafe siege. The hashtag #IllRideWithYou was used more than 90,000 times by late Monday evening.

Seven Network television news staff watched the gunman and hostages for hours from a fourth floor window of their Sydney offices, opposite the cafe.

The gunman could be seen pacing back and forth past the cafe's windows. Reporter Chris Reason said the man carried what appeared to be a pump-action shotgun, was unshaven and wore a white shirt and a black cap.

Earlier Monday, network staff counted about 15 different faces among hostages forced up against the windows.

"The gunman seems to be sort of rotating these people through these positions on the windows with their hands and faces up against the glass," Reason said in a report from the vantage point. "One woman we've counted was there for at least two hours  an extraordinary, agonizing time for her surely having to stand on her feet for that long."

"When we saw that rush of escapees, we could see from up here in this vantage point the gunman got extremely agitated as he realized those five had got out. He started screaming orders at the people, the hostages who remain behind," he added.

Reason later reported that staff brought food from a kitchen at the rear of the cafe and the hostages were fed.

As night set in, the lights inside the cafe were switched off. Armed police guarding the area outside fitted their helmets with green-glowing night goggles.

St. Vincent's hospital spokesman David Faktor said a male hostage was in satisfactory condition in the hospital's emergency department. He was the only one of the freed hostages to be taken to a hospital, and Scipione said he was being treated for a pre-existing condition.

Hundreds of police blanketed the city as streets were closed and offices evacuated. The public was told to stay away from Martin Place, site of the state premier's office, the Reserve Bank of Australia, and the headquarters of two of the nation's largest banks. The state parliament house is a few blocks away, and the landmark Sydney Opera House also is nearby.

"This is a very disturbing incident," Prime Minister Tony Abbott said. "It is profoundly shocking that innocent people should be held hostage by an armed person claiming political motivation."

Lindt Australia posted a message on its Facebook page thanking the public for its support.

"We are deeply concerned over this serious incident and our thoughts and prayers are with the staff and customers involved and all their friends and families," the company wrote.

Australia's government raised the country's terror warning level in September in response to the domestic threat posed by supporters of the Islamic State group. Counterterror law enforcement teams later conducted dozens of raids and made several arrests in Australia's three largest cities  Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane. One man arrested during a series of raids in Sydney was charged with conspiring with an Islamic State leader in Syria to behead a random person in downtown Sydney.

The Islamic State group, which now holds a third of Syria and Iraq, has threatened Australia in the past. In September, Islamic State group spokesman Abu Mohammed al-Adnani issued an audio message urging so-called "lone wolf" attacks abroad, specifically mentioning Australia. Al-Adnani told Muslims to kill all "disbelievers," whether they be civilians or soldiers.

One terrorism expert said the situation appeared to be that of a "lone wolf" making his own demands, rather than an attack orchestrated by a foreign jihadist group.

"There haven't been statements from overseas linking this to extremist groups outside the country  that is quite positive," said Charles Knight, lecturer in the Department of Policing, Intelligence and Counter Terrorism at Australia's Macquarie University. "The individual or individuals involved didn't kill early, which is part of the pattern of some recent international attacks. ... It seems to be shifting more into the model of a traditional hostage situation, rather than the sort of brutal attacks we've seen overseas."

Associated Press writers Rod McGuirk in Canberra, Nick Perry in Wellington, New Zealand, Jocelyn Gecker in Bangkok, Shawn Pogatchnik in Dublin and Maamoun Youssef in Cairo contributed to this report.


----------



## SQM

Great reporting Maid. I am wondering if the police started firing first. If so and people were hurt, they should have waited for Low Life to nod off. And why was that criminal out on bail?


----------



## MaidInBedlam

Just heard more news out of Sydney. 2 dead, including gunman. Several people injured. I'm sure all our good wishes are going out to our friends in Australia.


----------



## SQM

MaidInBedlam said:


> Just heard more news out of Sydney. 2 dead, including gunman. Several people injured. I'm sure all our good wishes are going out to our friends in Australia.


Glad they got the bastard. I am proud of the Aussie Moslims speaking out against the violence.


----------



## DGreen

Fallout from the Hobby Lobby decision. Ladies, this is exactly the kind of thing we feared. And it's not abortion - it's birth control of any kind.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/12/1351299/-Federal-judge-rules-car-dealership-can-legally-exclude-birth-control-for-employees?detail=emailb#


----------



## Poor Purl

Thank you, Eve and Maid, for your excellent and timely reporting. It's good that it's over, though not for the hostage who died, but let's hope that, as one report had it, it's a one-off thing and not a sign of things to come.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> Fallout from the Hobby Lobby decision. Ladies, this is exactly the kind of thing we feared. And it's not abortion - it's birth control of any kind.
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/12/1351299/-Federal-judge-rules-car-dealership-can-legally-exclude-birth-control-for-employees?detail=emailb#


Well, you do know that the Supreme Court changed their ruling on Hobby Lobby, don't you? The day after they handed down the original decision excluding the first 4 birth control methods that were in the suit, they changed it to cover ALL birth control. Which is why this judge can now do this and get away with it.


----------



## jbandsma

Oh gack. Just made the mistake of looking at a topic titled WARNING...thinking it might be about a virus or a scam.

It's a scam all right...all about how Obamacare kept a guy from being treated in the hospital (because the doctor couldn't tell what was wrong and wanted him to be observed so maybe he could figure it out). What that has to do with the ACA is beyond me.

Then it segued into "and my doctor told me that it's true that you can't get cancer treatment if you're older than 76 because the ACA won't let them". Anything to dig up Palin's "death panels" in some form.

I was nice. I left without saying anything. But I'm sure the rest of you know what I would have liked to have said.


----------



## jbandsma

From Consumer Reports:

Will Obamacare deny seniors cancer care?
Consumer Reports News: February 13, 2013 08:08 AM

Q. I was told that under the new health care law, people 76 and older will be denied cancer care. Is that true?

A. Not true. As best I can determine, that rumor originated from several viral e-mails and online posts. They recount convincing-sounding conversations with doctors who claim to have been briefed on a provision of the Affordable Care Act that will supposedly deny older Medicare beneficiaries treatments for serious conditions such as heart disease and cancer. Reputable fact-checking sites, such as Snopes.com and Factcheck.org, have documented that the stories are fake.

"Nothing in health care reform or in Medicare limits your care based on your age," says Joe Baker, president of the Medicare Rights Center, a nonprofit consumer advocacy and information group.

Far from cutting Medicare benefits, the new health care law has expanded them. Beneficiaries are now entitled to a long list of free preventive-care services that previously weren't covered. And the law is also closing the notorious "doughnut hole" in Part D drug plans.


----------



## Wombatnomore

MaidInBedlam said:


> It's especially nice, considering we're in a really citified area. There are creeks all over the place, diverted into culverts, but out in the open like ours for a short run. I live across the creek from a shopping mall, for goodness sake, and there's a major street a couple of blocks away. But here I am, in a little spot with lots of trees and bushes and some creek.
> 
> Wildlife abounds. There's a little footpath along the creek that leads into the mall. There is some small species of dragonfly here that is an iridescent sky blue. They swarm around in the spring and are wonderful to see when the light hits them. No Monarch butterflies this year, unfortunately. The population has gone way, way down but they're supposed to be on the increase again, so say some naturalists.
> 
> "Our" creek turns into a flash flood if we get enough rain, which we just did. In a very short time the creek that's so small and peaceful turns into a flash flood that can be really dangerous. I kept calling the police earlier this year because a couple of homeless people put up their camp by the creek. I felt sort of mean-spirited but they were camping right at the water's edge. They'd have been swept away if they'd stayed. (Not to mention that the kids around here play in the creek and the homeless like to be by running water which makes a dandy toilet...)


Sounds divine! No wonder people bunk down there.

I'm in an inner suburban area in Melbourne and where I live is teeming with birds. Lots of trees around (no gum trees though), and every day is a cacophony of who knows how many different species. In the early morning the warbling of the magpies starts it all and within an hour they're all at it! Loud as get out but lovely nonetheless.


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> From Consumer Reports:
> 
> Will Obamacare deny seniors cancer care?
> Consumer Reports News: February 13, 2013 08:08 AM
> 
> Q. I was told that under the new health care law, people 76 and older will be denied cancer care. Is that true?
> 
> A. Not true. As best I can determine, that rumor originated from several viral e-mails and online posts. They recount convincing-sounding conversations with doctors who claim to have been briefed on a provision of the Affordable Care Act that will supposedly deny older Medicare beneficiaries treatments for serious conditions such as heart disease and cancer. Reputable fact-checking sites, such as Snopes.com and Factcheck.org, have documented that the stories are fake.
> 
> "Nothing in health care reform or in Medicare limits your care based on your age," says Joe Baker, president of the Medicare Rights Center, a nonprofit consumer advocacy and information group.
> 
> Far from cutting Medicare benefits, the new health care law has expanded them. Beneficiaries are now entitled to a long list of free preventive-care services that previously weren't covered. And the law is also closing the notorious "doughnut hole" in Part D drug plans.


This has been debunked so many times, but it is surprising how many people out there still believe it. I think there are so many Obama haters, that if it is against Obama, they believe it no matter what it says. Senator Grassley is the one who said "pull the plug on Grandma" and that still hangs around too.


----------



## jbandsma

NJG said:


> This has been debunked so many times, but it is surprising how many people out there still believe it. I think there are so many Obama haters, that if it is against Obama, they believe it no matter what it says. Senator Grassley is the one who said "pull the plug on Grandma" and that still hangs around too.


And you also still have the ones saying "yes, MY doctor also told me that's true". I want those doctors' names so I can stay away from them.


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> And you also still have the ones saying "yes, MY doctor also told me that's true". I want those doctors' names so I can stay away from them.


Oh, yes, how many times have I read that on this forum, either my Dr said or I have a friend who said. It is all a big bunch of hooey.


----------



## NJG

What do you suppose the president was really thinking when she talked to him?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/12/1351331/-At-White-House-Christmas-party-Michele-Bachmann-asks-Obama-to-bomb-Iran?detail=emailb


----------



## DGreen

To our Australian friends, I want you to know how deeply touched I am at the #illridewithyou campaign on Twitter and how much I hope Americans would emulate the kindness,compassion and humanity displayed by Aussies toward their Muslim countrymen. 

As one of the participants said, haters will never know the bonds that can be created through such simple acts.


----------



## jbandsma

NJG said:


> What do you suppose the president was really thinking when she talked to him?
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/12/1351331/-At-White-House-Christmas-party-Michele-Bachmann-asks-Obama-to-bomb-Iran?detail=emailb


I'll bet he was wondering who screwed up the guest screening.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> Well, you do know that the Supreme Court changed their ruling on Hobby Lobby, don't you? The day after they handed down the original decision excluding the first 4 birth control methods that were in the suit, they changed it to cover ALL birth control. Which is why this judge can now do this and get away with it.


You are correct. I had forgotten that little tweak.


----------



## SQM

Reporting Back from NYC.

Will now sage myself to shed all the Republican brainwashing. 

Pennsylvania Station was militarized.


----------



## MarilynKnits

MaidInBedlam said:


> Just heard more news out of Sydney. 2 dead, including gunman. Several people injured. I'm sure all our good wishes are going out to our friends in Australia.


Amen to that. One innocent person dead is one too many, but what a relief that the murderer did not cause any additional deaths and another sigh of relief that he is dead and won't be released on bail to kill again.

Our whole world and our cherished freedoms are under siege. And we have only those creatures known as politicians to rely upon to set the national tone in each of our nations to set up systems to protect all of us. OY VEY!


----------



## MarilynKnits

jbandsma said:


> Oh gack. Just made the mistake of looking at a topic titled WARNING...thinking it might be about a virus or a scam.
> 
> It's a scam all right...all about how Obamacare kept a guy from being treated in the hospital (because the doctor couldn't tell what was wrong and wanted him to be observed so maybe he could figure it out). What that has to do with the ACA is beyond me.
> 
> Then it segued into "and my doctor told me that it's true that you can't get cancer treatment if you're older than 76 because the ACA won't let them". Anything to dig up Palin's "death panels" in some form.
> 
> I was nice. I left without saying anything. But I'm sure the rest of you know what I would have liked to have said.


Why waste your fingers saying anything. Those fools don't have the sense God gave a chicken when it comes to evaluating information and separating idiocy from fact.


----------



## susanmos2000

Early Christmas gift, ladies! 


"Republicans blame Cruz for year-end confirmations
Associated Press By DAVID ESPO
2 hours ago

Unhappy Republicans say Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas left a gift certificate good for confirmation of 12 judicial appointments for President Barack Obama and Democrats this holiday season. Only a month or so ago, voters delivered them a lump of coal in mid-term elections. 

WASHINGTON (AP)  Unhappy Republicans say Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas has given President Barack Obama a present this holiday season  a gift certificate good for confirmation of 12 judicial appointments, not long after the voters had delivered the Democrats a lump of coal in midterm elections.

Cruz, a tea party favorite and potential 2016 presidential contender, disputed the claim through his spokesman on Monday.

But there was no dissent that Democrats, who must turn over power to Republicans in January, were in position to confirm not only the judges, but 11 other appointees before the Senate wraps up work for the year.

Among them are nominees that Republicans have sought to block for two relatively high-profile posts. They are Vivek Murthy, confirmed late in the day as surgeon general, and Sarah Saldana to head Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the agency that will oversee the new administration policy on immigration that Cruz wants to defund.

At the root of the dispute lay a combination of the Senate's all-but-indecipherable rules, Cruz's attempt to use their murky corners to his advantage, and a bipartisan desire of many lawmakers to finish work for the year and return home for the holidays.

"My concern about the strategy he employed is that it has a result he didn't intend," Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine, said of Cruz' maneuverings on Friday night, when he sought to force a vote on Obama's immigration policy. Among the consequences, she said, would be confirmation of a number of appointees who are controversial, including some to "lifetime judicial" posts.

Some officials said Cruz was personally informed by GOP aides that Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid was primed to take advantage if he went ahead.

Under the Senate's rules, Cruz's maneuver allowed Reid to begin the time-consuming process of confirming nominations on Saturday at noon  when lawmakers had been scheduled to be home for the weekend.

Had Cruz not made his move when he did, according to officials in both parties, Reid would have had to wait until Monday night  more than 48 hours later. Disgruntled Republicans said they felt confident that Reid's rank and file would not have been willing to remain in Washington in that case, and only four or five nominees would be confirmed instead of 23.

Other Republican lawmakers were far more forceful than Collins in their judgment of Cruz on Monday. They declined to speak on the record, possibly feeling they had already done so enough during the unplanned, 12-hour Senate session on Saturday.

"You should have an end goal in sight if you're going to do these types of things, and I don't see an end goal other than irritating a lot of people," Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah said then.

Particularly galling to one Republican was that Reid was now in position to win confirmation even for judicial nominees who had been approved by the Senate Judiciary Committee since the midterm elections in which Democrats lost power. Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, said Saturday evening that was a violation of precedent "and of course, I object."

Others said Cruz' maneuvering was reminiscent of his role in a showdown two years ago that led to a partial government shutdown that most Republicans warned him would be a mistake.

Cruz's stated goal this time was to force a vote on Obama's new immigration policy, which is removing the threat of deportation for an estimated 5 million immigrants living in the country illegally.

He made his move Friday evening, after senators already had been informed they were free to go until Monday without fear of missing any votes. In response to Cruz, Reid ordered a Saturday session. Some senators who had left for home drove back hastily to avoid black marks on their voting records.

Far more important, in the minds of Republicans, was that Reid responded by launching an immediate effort to confirm the judicial and agency appointees, some of them long stalled. One of them, Christopher Smith, has been awaiting Senate confirmation to an Energy Department post since January.

Cruz's office swiftly disputed the claim. "Everyone knows Harry Reid planned to jam forward as many nominees as he could," Phil Novack, a spokesman for Cruz, said by email. "Unfortunately, there are many on both sides of the aisle who would rather stoke stories about Ted Cruz to distract from the more important debate over the President's unilateral action to grant amnesty."

It wasn't the only surprise Cruz delivered to incoming Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell.

In remarks on the Senate floor, he suggested the Republican leader and House Speaker John Boehner might not be entirely trustworthy when they promised to force a showdown with Obama over immigration early in the new year.

"We will learn soon enough if those statements are genuine and sincere. We will learn in just a few weeks," he said.

McConnell has yet to respond."


----------



## BrattyPatty

MarilynKnits said:


> Why waste your fingers saying anything. Those fools don't have the sense God gave a chicken when it comes to evaluating information and separating idiocy from fact.


I didn't   I had to say something.


----------



## BrattyPatty

susanmos2000 said:


> Early Christmas gift, ladies!
> 
> "Republicans blame Cruz for year-end confirmations
> Associated Press By DAVID ESPO
> 2 hours ago
> 
> Unhappy Republicans say Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas left a gift certificate good for confirmation of 12 judicial appointments for President Barack Obama and Democrats this holiday season. Only a month or so ago, voters delivered them a lump of coal in mid-term elections.
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP)  Unhappy Republicans say Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas has given President Barack Obama a present this holiday season  a gift certificate good for confirmation of 12 judicial appointments, not long after the voters had delivered the Democrats a lump of coal in midterm elections.
> 
> Cruz, a tea party favorite and potential 2016 presidential contender, disputed the claim through his spokesman on Monday.
> 
> But there was no dissent that Democrats, who must turn over power to Republicans in January, were in position to confirm not only the judges, but 11 other appointees before the Senate wraps up work for the year.
> 
> Among them are nominees that Republicans have sought to block for two relatively high-profile posts. They are Vivek Murthy, confirmed late in the day as surgeon general, and Sarah Saldana to head Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the agency that will oversee the new administration policy on immigration that Cruz wants to defund.
> 
> At the root of the dispute lay a combination of the Senate's all-but-indecipherable rules, Cruz's attempt to use their murky corners to his advantage, and a bipartisan desire of many lawmakers to finish work for the year and return home for the holidays.
> 
> "My concern about the strategy he employed is that it has a result he didn't intend," Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine, said of Cruz' maneuverings on Friday night, when he sought to force a vote on Obama's immigration policy. Among the consequences, she said, would be confirmation of a number of appointees who are controversial, including some to "lifetime judicial" posts.
> 
> Some officials said Cruz was personally informed by GOP aides that Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid was primed to take advantage if he went ahead.
> 
> Under the Senate's rules, Cruz's maneuver allowed Reid to begin the time-consuming process of confirming nominations on Saturday at noon  when lawmakers had been scheduled to be home for the weekend.
> 
> Had Cruz not made his move when he did, according to officials in both parties, Reid would have had to wait until Monday night  more than 48 hours later. Disgruntled Republicans said they felt confident that Reid's rank and file would not have been willing to remain in Washington in that case, and only four or five nominees would be confirmed instead of 23.
> 
> Other Republican lawmakers were far more forceful than Collins in their judgment of Cruz on Monday. They declined to speak on the record, possibly feeling they had already done so enough during the unplanned, 12-hour Senate session on Saturday.
> 
> "You should have an end goal in sight if you're going to do these types of things, and I don't see an end goal other than irritating a lot of people," Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah said then.
> 
> Particularly galling to one Republican was that Reid was now in position to win confirmation even for judicial nominees who had been approved by the Senate Judiciary Committee since the midterm elections in which Democrats lost power. Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, said Saturday evening that was a violation of precedent "and of course, I object."
> 
> Others said Cruz' maneuvering was reminiscent of his role in a showdown two years ago that led to a partial government shutdown that most Republicans warned him would be a mistake.
> 
> Cruz's stated goal this time was to force a vote on Obama's new immigration policy, which is removing the threat of deportation for an estimated 5 million immigrants living in the country illegally.
> 
> He made his move Friday evening, after senators already had been informed they were free to go until Monday without fear of missing any votes. In response to Cruz, Reid ordered a Saturday session. Some senators who had left for home drove back hastily to avoid black marks on their voting records.
> 
> Far more important, in the minds of Republicans, was that Reid responded by launching an immediate effort to confirm the judicial and agency appointees, some of them long stalled. One of them, Christopher Smith, has been awaiting Senate confirmation to an Energy Department post since January.
> 
> Cruz's office swiftly disputed the claim. "Everyone knows Harry Reid planned to jam forward as many nominees as he could," Phil Novack, a spokesman for Cruz, said by email. "Unfortunately, there are many on both sides of the aisle who would rather stoke stories about Ted Cruz to distract from the more important debate over the President's unilateral action to grant amnesty."
> 
> It wasn't the only surprise Cruz delivered to incoming Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell.
> 
> In remarks on the Senate floor, he suggested the Republican leader and House Speaker John Boehner might not be entirely trustworthy when they promised to force a showdown with Obama over immigration early in the new year.
> 
> "We will learn soon enough if those statements are genuine and sincere. We will learn in just a few weeks," he said.
> 
> McConnell has yet to respond."


I heard some of this on the news. His (Cruz) own party members are not very happy with him. Is this going to be change of things to come with a new Repug senate majority?
It sounds like something out of a Laurel and Hardy film.


----------



## DGreen

BrattyPatty said:


> I heard some of this on the news. His (Cruz) own party members are not very happy with him. Is this going to be change of things to come with a new Repug senate majority?
> It sounds like something out of a Laurel and Hardy film.


Cruz is known for being very self-serving. He's making enemies right and left and the good ol' boys don't forget. I'm glad - less chance of him being nominated for 2016.


----------



## Wombatnomore

DGreen said:


> To our Australian friends, I want you to know how deeply touched I am at the #illridewithyou campaign on Twitter and how much I hope Americans would emulate the kindness,compassion and humanity displayed by Aussies toward their Muslim countrymen.
> 
> As one of the participants said, haters will never know the bonds that can be created through such simple acts.


I'm touched Green, that you acknowledged the 'I'llridewithyou' concept which (for others information), was conceived by one of our citizens on twitter as reassurance to the Muslim community that they will be safe and protected despite the desperate act of one madman.

Turns out this idiot was a disenfranchised muslim and self-styled sheik with a rap sheet too awful to repeat here. Having said that, the authorities here are certain that IS will be happy to be the 'poster group' to claim some responsibility in the scenario. They haven't spoken as yet.

Such a tragedy that innocent people died and that everyone involved will be affected for years to come. Another tragedy is that now Australia has fallen prey to 'gross' terror and the implications of that will be huge.

Such a cliché but I suppose all we can do is live our lives despite the existence of people who really want to do us harm. I think that civilization has always been this way, it's just that now, it's presenting itself in a different way.

Next it will be attack from drones. Maybe there's a movie in that.


----------



## cookiequeen

Can someone who makes potato latkes tell me if I need to put in something for binding? The recipe in our paper called for potato starch, whatever that is, and I wonder if I can substitute corn starch or just omit that stuff. My other paper added matzo in place of the potato starch. I just want to try making a small amount since DH is diabetic. Just want a taste.


----------



## susanmos2000

Wombatnomore said:


> I'm touched Green, that you acknowledged the 'I'llridewithyou' concept which (for others information), was conceived by one of our citizens on twitter as reassurance to the Muslim community that they will be safe and protected despite the desperate act of one madman.


Sad to say I don't see that reassurance and protection being offered here had the Sheik pulled his deadly stunt on American soil. Verbal, maybe even physical brickbats would be flying at the members of our Muslim communities.


----------



## NJG

DGreen said:


> Cruz is known for being very self-serving. He's making enemies right and left and the good ol' boys don't forget. I'm glad - less chance of him being nominated for 2016.


Yes, I think he is doing himself a lot of harm. Rachel did a segment on her show tonight and it was awesome. I love her. His screw up allowed the democrats to get some nominations approved and they got the new surgeon general approved, the man the NRA was campaigning against, so that is even better.


----------



## SQM

Wombatnomore said:


> I'm touched Green, that you acknowledged the 'I'llridewithyou' concept which (for others information), was conceived by one of our citizens on twitter as reassurance to the Muslim community that they will be safe and protected despite the desperate act of one madman.
> 
> Turns out this idiot was a disenfranchised muslim and self-styled sheik with a rap sheet too awful to repeat here. Having said that, the authorities here are certain that IS will be happy to be the 'poster group' to claim some responsibility in the scenario. They haven't spoken as yet.
> 
> Such a tragedy that innocent people died and that everyone involved will be affected for years to come. Another tragedy is that now Australia has fallen prey to 'gross' terror and the implications of that will be huge.
> 
> Such a cliché but I suppose all we can do is live our lives despite the existence of people who really want to do us harm. I think that civilization has always been this way, it's just that now, it's presenting itself in a different way.
> 
> Next it will be attack from drones. Maybe there's a movie in that.


Tony Abbott seems so wimpy. Am I right? What is his background?


----------



## DGreen

susanmos2000 said:


> Sad to say I don't see that reassurance and protection being offered here had the Sheik pulled his deadly stunt on American soil. Verbal, maybe even physical brickbats would be flying at the members of our Muslim communities.


Or, as happened in Arizona shortly after 9-11, a Sikh running a convenience store was assumed to be a Muslim because he was wearing a turban and was murdered by a red-neck, skinhead racist idiot.


----------



## jbandsma

susanmos2000 said:


> Sad to say I don't see that reassurance and protection being offered here had the Sheik pulled his deadly stunt on American soil. Verbal, maybe even physical brickbats would be flying at the members of our Muslim communities.


More like Molotov cocktails and other firebombs.


----------



## DGreen

SQM said:


> Reporting Back from NYC.
> 
> Will now sage myself to shed all the Republican brainwashing.
> 
> Pennsylvania Station was militarized.


Sounds like a hot soak in a tub is also in order. Maybe a glass of wine or two as a reward for your composure under duress.


----------



## NJG

Some of the Sandy Hook parents and teachers have filed a lawsuit against the manufacturer of the Bushmaster. The republicans and Bush passed and signed into law a bill to prevent lawsuits like this. I sure hope they prevail. I am not against the 2nd amendment in any way shape or form. However, I do not believe citizens need these kind of killing machines. In the manufacturers literature it is clearly stated that it is a gun to be used for combat, and I think they should be available to the military only.


----------



## NJG

Ohio is trying to do something about their gerrymandering. Only problem is it would cover only state level races, not John Boehner seat in congress, because he was objecting.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/ohio-voting-redistricting-breakthrough


----------



## Poor Purl

susanmos2000 said:


> Early Christmas gift, ladies!
> 
> "Republicans blame Cruz for year-end confirmations
> Associated Press By DAVID ESPO
> 2 hours ago
> 
> Unhappy Republicans say Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas left a gift certificate good for confirmation of 12 judicial appointments for President Barack Obama and Democrats this holiday season. Only a month or so ago, voters delivered them a lump of coal in mid-term elections.
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP)  Unhappy Republicans say Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas has given President Barack Obama a present this holiday season  a gift certificate good for confirmation of 12 judicial appointments, not long after the voters had delivered the Democrats a lump of coal in midterm elections.
> 
> Cruz, a tea party favorite and potential 2016 presidential contender, disputed the claim through his spokesman on Monday.
> 
> But there was no dissent that Democrats, who must turn over power to Republicans in January, were in position to confirm not only the judges, but 11 other appointees before the Senate wraps up work for the year.
> 
> Among them are nominees that Republicans have sought to block for two relatively high-profile posts. They are Vivek Murthy, confirmed late in the day as surgeon general, and Sarah Saldana to head Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the agency that will oversee the new administration policy on immigration that Cruz wants to defund.
> 
> At the root of the dispute lay a combination of the Senate's all-but-indecipherable rules, Cruz's attempt to use their murky corners to his advantage, and a bipartisan desire of many lawmakers to finish work for the year and return home for the holidays.
> 
> "My concern about the strategy he employed is that it has a result he didn't intend," Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine, said of Cruz' maneuverings on Friday night, when he sought to force a vote on Obama's immigration policy. Among the consequences, she said, would be confirmation of a number of appointees who are controversial, including some to "lifetime judicial" posts.
> 
> Some officials said Cruz was personally informed by GOP aides that Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid was primed to take advantage if he went ahead.
> 
> Under the Senate's rules, Cruz's maneuver allowed Reid to begin the time-consuming process of confirming nominations on Saturday at noon  when lawmakers had been scheduled to be home for the weekend.
> 
> Had Cruz not made his move when he did, according to officials in both parties, Reid would have had to wait until Monday night  more than 48 hours later. Disgruntled Republicans said they felt confident that Reid's rank and file would not have been willing to remain in Washington in that case, and only four or five nominees would be confirmed instead of 23.
> 
> Other Republican lawmakers were far more forceful than Collins in their judgment of Cruz on Monday. They declined to speak on the record, possibly feeling they had already done so enough during the unplanned, 12-hour Senate session on Saturday.
> 
> "You should have an end goal in sight if you're going to do these types of things, and I don't see an end goal other than irritating a lot of people," Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah said then.
> 
> Particularly galling to one Republican was that Reid was now in position to win confirmation even for judicial nominees who had been approved by the Senate Judiciary Committee since the midterm elections in which Democrats lost power. Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, said Saturday evening that was a violation of precedent "and of course, I object."
> 
> Others said Cruz' maneuvering was reminiscent of his role in a showdown two years ago that led to a partial government shutdown that most Republicans warned him would be a mistake.
> 
> Cruz's stated goal this time was to force a vote on Obama's new immigration policy, which is removing the threat of deportation for an estimated 5 million immigrants living in the country illegally.
> 
> He made his move Friday evening, after senators already had been informed they were free to go until Monday without fear of missing any votes. In response to Cruz, Reid ordered a Saturday session. Some senators who had left for home drove back hastily to avoid black marks on their voting records.
> 
> Far more important, in the minds of Republicans, was that Reid responded by launching an immediate effort to confirm the judicial and agency appointees, some of them long stalled. One of them, Christopher Smith, has been awaiting Senate confirmation to an Energy Department post since January.
> 
> Cruz's office swiftly disputed the claim. "Everyone knows Harry Reid planned to jam forward as many nominees as he could," Phil Novack, a spokesman for Cruz, said by email. "Unfortunately, there are many on both sides of the aisle who would rather stoke stories about Ted Cruz to distract from the more important debate over the President's unilateral action to grant amnesty."
> 
> It wasn't the only surprise Cruz delivered to incoming Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell.
> 
> In remarks on the Senate floor, he suggested the Republican leader and House Speaker John Boehner might not be entirely trustworthy when they promised to force a showdown with Obama over immigration early in the new year.
> 
> "We will learn soon enough if those statements are genuine and sincere. We will learn in just a few weeks," he said.
> 
> McConnell has yet to respond."


How nice of Ted Cruz to be so smitten with his own idea that he didn't pay attention to the unintended consequences. The stars are smiling down on us and laughing themselves silly at Cruz.


----------



## Poor Purl

BrattyPatty said:


> I didn't   I had to say something.


It looked too wacky to me. I passed it by, also. But I'll check out what you had to say and how it was received.


----------



## SQM

DGreen said:


> Sounds like a hot soak in a tub is also in order. Maybe a glass of wine or two as a reward for your composure under duress.


I thought i was constantly kvetching (complaining).


----------



## Wombatnomore

cookiequeen said:


> Can someone who makes potato latkes tell me if I need to put in something for binding? The recipe in our paper called for potato starch, whatever that is, and I wonder if I can substitute corn starch or just omit that stuff. My other paper added matzo in place of the potato starch. I just want to try making a small amount since DH is diabetic. Just want a taste.


This is my favourite site for Jewish Cooking. There are two binding agents: potato starch and eggs:

http://toriavey.com/how-to/2013/11/how-to-make-crispy-latkes/


----------



## Wombatnomore

susanmos2000 said:


> Sad to say I don't see that reassurance and protection being offered here had the Sheik pulled his deadly stunt on American soil. Verbal, maybe even physical brickbats would be flying at the members of our Muslim communities.


There are no doubt haters over here also and I would bet that there are more Americans wanting to live peacefully with their Muslim counterparts than violently.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

susanmos2000 said:


> Sad to say I don't see that reassurance and protection being offered here had the Sheik pulled his deadly stunt on American soil. Verbal, maybe even physical brickbats would be flying at the members of our Muslim communities.


That is very, very sad. I am glad I live in Australia where we believe in multiculturalism. My local community has recently stood up and fought for a Muslim family, refugees from Afghanistan. Coles, owned by Wesfarmers and a big corporation, wanted to close the Muslim family's fruit and vegie shop that is situated in our local shopping centre and open a liquor store there, despite the fact that they had a liquor store less than half a mile away. Coles is the major tenant in that shopping centre and they think they can dominate everything that happens there. Wrong, they cannot and the community protested against their decision to close the store. The community was very strong in their support for the family, organised petitions, rallies etc. The local member of State Parliament gave her support to the family, both vocal and monetary support. The Commissioner of the Western Australian Police gave his support to the family. Over 7,500 signatures were collected in support of the family, the assistants in every store you went into asked "have you signed Matt's petition yet?" The matter was coming up before a Mundaring Shire planning committee meeting last Tuesday as the Shire had to alter the planning guidelines for the store location to change it to accommodate the liquor store. The local residents were going to attend the meeting in droves, normally only a few people attend Shire meetings. Only hours before the meeting Coles withdrew their application to have the planning guidelines changed so they could evict the Muslim shop owners and change the store to a liquor store, they did not give the reason. I know several people wrote to both Coles and the Shire stating that they believed the reason Coles wanted to change the store to a liquor store was because the fruit and vegie shop owners were Muslims, I sent these letters myself. We did not receive a reply to our letters but one letter writer said he was going to make a song and dance about this aspect. So, yes, we won, we stood up for our Muslim neighbours and we were proud to do so. Matt's shop is very popular, people buy their fruit and vegies from him rather than from Coles. Not just fruit and vegies but honey, eggs, lollies, spices as well. Many, many Aussies welcome our Muslim brothers and sisters into our communities. Unfortunately, we also have 'red neckers ' who reply with a one line, knee jerk reaction which is often anti Muslim.

I worked in a public library and we had a large Muslim population in the areas served by the four branch libraries of that library. Muslims were treated exactly the same as any other borrower, regardless of whether they were wearing the hijab, niqab or the full burqa. These borrowers were lovely people, friendly, chatty, some a little withdrawn, but they were all the same as you and me. We saw the person wearing the clothes and not just the clothes. It is more than sad when people judge a person simply based on their religion or the misinterpretation of what a person's religious values are. Yes, condemn the bigot, but condemn them because they are a bigot not because they follow a different religion to you.


----------



## Poor Purl

cookiequeen said:


> Can someone who makes potato latkes tell me if I need to put in something for binding? The recipe in our paper called for potato starch, whatever that is, and I wonder if I can substitute corn starch or just omit that stuff. My other paper added matzo in place of the potato starch. I just want to try making a small amount since DH is diabetic. Just want a taste.


Potato starch is like corn starch only from potatoes instead of corn. Seriously, it tastes a bit better. You can use flour - all-purpose, whole wheat, even rye if you have some instead of the starch http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/ina-garten/potato-latkes-recipe.html or http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/potato-latkes-recipe2.html

Here's a recipe that's simpler and uses no added starch (warning: I haven't tried this, but it seems fine): 
http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/Potato-Latkes-104406

This is the one I use: http://www.npr.org/programs/specials/recipes/crispylatkes.html

Seasoned bread crumbs might be interesting.

Important Edit: Do not use cream cheese in or with the latkes!


----------



## Wombatnomore

SQM said:


> Tony Abbott seems so wimpy. Am I right? What is his background?


Born in England. Came here at a very young age. Economics and Law degree, a masters in something and a Rhodes Scholar.

Married, 3 daughters, staunch Catholic. Worked as a journalist early on and studied in a seminary before that. Entered the parliament in the early 90's. Leader of the Opposition (Liberal Party) for a couple of terms then became Prime Minister about a year ago.

I think he lacks 'statesmanship' and tact. He's more of a clodhopper; clumsy and a bit coarse. He's a great athlete though. Was a boxer at school. He's also got an okay bod for a 57 year old!


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> And you also still have the ones saying "yes, MY doctor also told me that's true". I want those doctors' names so I can stay away from them.


You don't have to avoid them. They're the doctors who gave up practicing because they wouldn't be able to make a living under Obamacare. They knew this a year before it went into effect.


----------



## Poor Purl

NJG said:


> What do you suppose the president was really thinking when she talked to him?
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/12/1351331/-At-White-House-Christmas-party-Michele-Bachmann-asks-Obama-to-bomb-Iran?detail=emailb


"_Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens, snow bells and sleigh bells, or is it church bells and sleigh bells? and warm woolen mittens, I hope somebody gets this loony away before I start crying. Brown paper or white paper, I know it's not black paper packages tied up with string. Oh, thank God, here comes Joe Biden; he'll talk to anyone._"


----------



## Poor Purl

DGreen said:


> To our Australian friends, I want you to know how deeply touched I am at the #illridewithyou campaign on Twitter and how much I hope Americans would emulate the kindness,compassion and humanity displayed by Aussies toward their Muslim countrymen.
> 
> As one of the participants said, haters will never know the bonds that can be created through such simple acts.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl

SQM said:


> Reporting Back from NYC.
> 
> Will now sage myself to shed all the Republican brainwashing.
> 
> Pennsylvania Station was militarized.


Sage yourself? What means "sage yourself"? But thank goodness you came through it alive and almost sane.

I sometimes see a few soldiers standing at the subway entrance to Penn Station, but they seem to be hanging out. Were they all at attention when you were there?


----------



## Poor Purl

MarilynKnits said:


> Amen to that. One innocent person dead is one too many, but what a relief that the murderer did not cause any additional deaths and another sigh of relief that he is dead and won't be released on bail to kill again.
> 
> Our whole world and our cherished freedoms are under siege. And we have only those creatures known as politicians to rely upon to set the national tone in each of our nations to set up systems to protect all of us. OY VEY!


Now, that's scary.


----------



## Poor Purl

MarilynKnits said:


> Why waste your fingers saying anything. Those fools don't have the sense God gave a chicken when it comes to evaluating information and separating idiocy from fact.


Chickens are way smarter than those fools. You can teach a chicken to play tic-tac-toe; you can't teach those people anything.


----------



## Poor Purl

DGreen said:


> Or, as happened in Arizona shortly after 9-11, a Sikh running a convenience store was assumed to be a Muslim because he was wearing a turban and was murdered by a red-neck, skinhead racist idiot.


... who was then appointed chief of police.


----------



## NJG

Wombatnomore said:


> There are no doubt haters over here also and I would bet that there are more Americans wanting to live peacefully with their Muslim counterparts than violently.


I think you are right. The problem is that the haters are the ones who make it a point to vote. This last election only 1/3 of the people voted so the haters got elected, and now for the next two years they will be trying to move things more to the right. Hopefully the next election will bring more people out to vote. I don't want to even think what this country would be like under complete control of the haters.


----------



## NJG

I will admit that I was very naive, before President Obama was elected, and thought that we were further along in being a non racist society. Boy, was I in for a rude awakening when all the racists and haters came out of the woodwork.


----------



## NJG

Wombatnomore said:


> Born in England. Came here at a very young age. Economics and Law degree, a masters in something and a Rhodes Scholar.
> 
> Married, 3 daughters, staunch Catholic. Worked as a journalist early on and studied in a seminary before that. Entered the parliament in the early 90's. Leader of the Opposition (Liberal Party) for a couple of terms then became Prime Minister about a year ago.
> 
> I think he lacks 'statesmanship' and tact. He's more of a clodhopper; clumsy and a bit coarse. He's a great athlete though. Was a boxer at school. He's also got an okay bod for a 57 year old!


Well then you at least have something to look at. I have to mute a lot of our politicians when they come on tv and then just knit, cause looking isn't good either.


----------



## Poor Purl

NJG said:


> I think you are right. The problem is that the haters are the ones who make it a point to vote. This last election only 1/3 of the people voted so the haters got elected, and now for the next two years they will be trying to move things more to the right. Hopefully the next election will bring more people out to vote. I don't want to even think what this country would be like under complete control of the haters.


Oh, this reminds me - a good op-ed in Monday's NY Times, by Charles Blow.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/15/opinion/charles-m-blow-america-who-are-we.html?rref=collection%2Fcolumn%2Fcharles-m-blow&_r=0

And while you're there, check out Paul Krugman: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/15/opinion/paul-krugman-dodd-frank-damaged-by-the-budget-bill.html It's very anti-Repub, so be warned.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

SQM said:


> Tony Abbott seems so wimpy. Am I right? What is his background?


I have sent you a PM, with cut and paste from this link, which I think gives an accurate portrayal of Tony Rabbit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Abbott

You could describe Tonny Rabbit as wimpy. He is the new kid on the block and keen to throw his weight around. Remember how he was going to 'shirt front' Putin? Yes, he is against Putin because he is a Russian and Tony believes that all Russians are evil, atheists and Communists. He does not understand the term 'Holy Mother Russia'. He is now avowing his friendship for the Ukrainian President, who of course is violently anti Russian. Poroshenko is a Catholic, therefore Tony will always support him.

Tony could be best described as extremely unsophisticated and unskilled in walking the world's stage as a head of state. He is definitely no statesman, although he believes he is. Listen to his speeches and watch his wooden hand movements. Some say he could benefit from a season with Toastmasters.

His Treasurer, Joe Hockey, introduced a very harsh budge last May. The budget cut services and payments to the poor, to the bone. Here it is 7 months and the entire budget has not gained support in the Senate and Joe and Tony have altered several of the proposed measures. Federal Parliament has risen for the Christmas break and the budget is still not through the Senate.

Unfortunately Tony is introducing some measures not as 'Legislation' which requires approval by both houses of Parliament but by 'regulation' which by passes Parliament.

If a Bill fails to gain the support of both houses of Parliament it is resubmitted and if it fails for the second time then it can result in a double dissolution of Parliament, that is both houses are up for re election. Sneaky Tony and his crew know this so they do not reintroduce the Bill for a second reading but alter a few words and submit it as a 'new bill', often on the morning following the rejection by the Senate. This only shows that they had already planned to submit a new Bill if the first one did not gain support. The new Bill is essentially the same as the first Bill, with only very minor alterations.

Tony is also facing opposition to some of his ideas from members of the Back Bench of his own party.

I think Malcolm Turnbull would make a better PM but doubt if Malcolm would have the numbers to mount a challenge to Tony's leadership of the Liberal Party and hence become our P M. Some say if there was a challenge then the Foreign Minister, Julie Bishop would be in there with a good chance. Who knows, we may see a challenge in the new year and see Tony toppled and a new Prime Minister elected. We are not the same as the USA, we do not elect the PM in a separate vote and the PM is only the PM as long as he has the support of his party. The PM can be toppled mid term, and this has happened on a number of occasions.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

Wombatnomore said:


> Born in England. Came here at a very young age. Economics and Law degree, a masters in something and a Rhodes Scholar.
> 
> Married, 3 daughters, staunch Catholic. Worked as a journalist early on and studied in a seminary before that. Entered the parliament in the early 90's. Leader of the Opposition (Liberal Party) for a couple of terms then became Prime Minister about a year ago.
> 
> I think he lacks 'statesmanship' and tact. He's more of a clodhopper; clumsy and a bit coarse. He's a great athlete though. Was a boxer at school. He's also got an okay bod for a 57 year old!


I agree with your description, 'a clodhopper; clumsy and a bit coarse'. Too many thumps to the head during his boxing matches?


----------



## Knitted by Nan

Poor Purl said:


> "_Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens, snow bells and sleigh bells, or is it church bells and sleigh bells? and warm woolen mittens, I hope somebody gets this loony away before I start crying. Brown paper or white paper, I know it's not black paper packages tied up with string. Oh, thank God, here comes Joe Biden; he'll talk to anyone._"


Or "the wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, all the way to town. This loony drones on and on, on and on, all the way to town. Will someone please come and rescue me, I do not care who, Skippy the Bush Kangaroo, the Wombles of Wimbledon Common, anyone, I do not care who, just come and rescue me."


----------



## Wombatnomore

NJG said:


> I think you are right. The problem is that the haters are the ones who make it a point to vote. This last election only 1/3 of the people voted so the haters got elected, and now for the next two years they will be trying to move things more to the right. Hopefully the next election will bring more people out to vote. I don't want to even think what this country would be like under complete control of the haters.


I suspect a Presidential election would bring out more voters than the mid-term. And I wager the American public by and large will see through the 'haters' and vote accordingly.


----------



## Wombatnomore

NJG said:


> Well then you at least have something to look at. I have to mute a lot of our politicians when they come on tv and then just knit, cause looking isn't good either.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: That was so funny! Now remember, I said he had a good body for his age. His head is another area entirely. Unfortunately, he has rather large 'sticking out' ears.


----------



## Wombatnomore

EveMCooke said:


> I agree with your description, 'a clodhopper; clumsy and a bit coarse'. Too many thumps to the head during his boxing matches?


Nah, it's the weight of those ears! Imagine having to lug those around 24/7? It's a good thing men don't wear earrings because Mr. Abbott would also have to grapple with the long, stretched lobes. Ghastly thought.


----------



## susanmos2000

Wombatnomore said:


> Born in England. Came here at a very young age. Economics and Law degree, a masters in something and a Rhodes Scholar.
> 
> Married, 3 daughters, staunch Catholic. Worked as a journalist early on and studied in a seminary before that. Entered the parliament in the early 90's. Leader of the Opposition (Liberal Party) for a couple of terms then became Prime Minister about a year ago.
> 
> I think he lacks 'statesmanship' and tact. He's more of a clodhopper; clumsy and a bit coarse. He's a great athlete though. Was a boxer at school. He's also got an okay bod for a 57 year old!


You think so? I glimpsed only his head in the televised news footage, but those ears! Like two open cab doors. Taxi!


----------



## Knitted by Nan

susanmos2000 said:


> You think so? I glimpsed only his head in the televised news footage, but those ears! Like two open cab doors. Taxi!


I had to laugh at your description, like two open cab doors. Only thing is if I laugh it might hurt. Yes, I have been out in the garden again and overdoing it. Lopping the banana tree and the cherry plum tree that is growing over the fence from next door, not I seem to ache all over. Well after 9 .00 p m so to bed soon. I must try to remember I am an old lady and try to dislodge my son away from the X Box to do the heavy work in the yard.


----------



## susanmos2000

EveMCooke said:


> I had to laugh at your description, like two open cab doors. Only thing is if I laugh it might hurt. Yes, I have been out in the garden again and overdoing it. Lopping the banana tree and the cherry plum tree that is growing over the fence from next door, not I seem to ache all over. Well after 9 .00 p m so to bed soon. I must try to remember I am an old lady and try to dislodge my son away from the X Box to do the heavy work in the yard.


I'm envious, Evie. Not of the aching muscles, of course, but rather the nice weather you're obviously experiencing. It's been positively gloomy here in "sunny" California--three days of rain, and when I peeked out the window a few minute ago I noticed it had started up again. Bleah!


----------



## Knitted by Nan

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm envious, Evie. Not of the aching muscles, of course, but rather the nice weather you're obviously experiencing. It's been positively gloomy here in "sunny" California--three days of rain, and when I peeked out the window a few minute ago I noticed it had started up again. Bleah!


The weather is beautiful at the moment, more like spring than summer. Cool days only mid 20C and even cooler nights down to about 13C, not cool enough to shut the bedroom windows or front and back door though. We have not had the air conditioners on yet and only had the fans on a few times. It will heat up soon enough. Cooler weather is good for fighting any fires. Thankfully the bush fire near my daughter's house is under control and almost burnt out.


----------



## susanmos2000

EveMCooke said:


> The weather is beautiful at the moment, more like spring than summer. Cool days only mid 20C and even cooler nights down to about 13C, not cool enough to shut the bedroom windows or front and back door though. We have not had the air conditioners on yet and only had the fans on a few times. It will heat up soon enough. Cooler weather is good for fighting any fires. Thankfully the bush fire near my daughter's house is under control and almost burnt out.


Thank goodness for that. I heard a bit about the bush fires in Australia and the threat they're posing, but then the standoff in Sydney kind of pushed it to the back burner. Glad the situation is seemingly under control now.


----------



## jbandsma

Wombatnomore said:


> I suspect a Presidential election would bring out more voters than the mid-term. And I wager the American public by and large will see through the 'haters' and vote accordingly.


People are saying that only 1/3 of registered voters 'turned out' to vote but they are forgetting the huge numbers of places where voters normally would turn out but have been disenfranchised. From disallowing forms of ID (for instance, veterans' ID cards have been declared not valid for voting) to voter roll purges without checking to see if people really need to be taken off to 50,000 new voter registrations that somehow got "lost" to intimidation and actual threats in certain communities if people did show up to vote to reducing the number of voting machine and moving polling places to facilities to out of the way locations where there's no possible public transportation and little or no parking to reducing or eliminating the days and times for people to vote...people who are unable to get time off work to go to the polls.

Those things did just what they were meant to do...kept people at home on election day. And now that republicans control the whole congress, you can look for it to get even worse.

The funniest thing is that the only real cases of the voter fraud they say they are trying to prevent have been committed by republicans. Like Ann Coulter.


----------



## jbandsma

NJG said:


> I will admit that I was very naive, before President Obama was elected, and thought that we were further along in being a non racist society. Boy, was I in for a rude awakening when all the racists and haters came out of the woodwork.


Living in the south, I knew we were in for serious problems. In fact, I was absolutely amazed that he was allowed to live long enough to even be sworn in.


----------



## SQM

Poor Purl said:


> Sage yourself? What means "sage yourself"? But thank goodness you came through it alive and almost sane.
> 
> I sometimes see a few soldiers standing at the subway entrance to Penn Station, but they seem to be hanging out. Were they all at attention when you were there?


American Indian practice is to sage an environment to rid it of spirits. Those of us trained in the fine art of the paranormal still use it today. However I will need to do it to myself to get rid of the Evils rep. influence on me. The Soldier Kids were stationed thru-out the station but were not busy so one was helpful in getting me to 7th Ave. Penn Station is an abomination compared to the old one.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

It never seems to end, does it? People in Peshawar may not be celebrating Christmas but I'm sure, like most ordinary people all over the world, they want "Peace on earth, goodwill to all."

*Taliban storm Pakistani school, killing 126*
Associated Press: RIAZ KHAN
1 hr ago

PESHAWAR, Pakistan (AP)  Taliban gunmen stormed a military-run school in the northwestern Pakistani city of Peshawar on Tuesday, killing 126 people, officials said, in the worst attack to hit the country in years.

The overwhelming majority of the victims were students at the army public school, which has children and teenagers in grades 1-10. Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif condemned the assault and rushed to Peshawar to show his support for the victims.

The horrific attack, carried out by a relatively small number of militants from the Tehreek-e-Taliban, a Pakistani militant group trying to overthrow the government, also sent dozens of wounded flooding into local hospitals as terrified parents searched for their children.

"My son was in uniform in the morning. He is in a casket now," wailed one parent, Tahir Ali, as he came to the hospital to collect the body of his 14-year-old son Abdullah. "My son was my dream. My dream has been killed."

Army commandos quickly arrived at the scene and started exchanging fire with the gunmen, he said. Students wearing their green school uniforms could be seen on Pakistani television, fleeing the area.

Outside the school, two loud booms of unknown origin were heard coming from the scene in the early afternoon, as Pakistani troops battled with the attackers. Armored personnel carriers were deployed around the school grounds, and a Pakistani military helicopter circled overhead.

Details were sketchy in the face of the overwhelming tragedy. Pakistani television showed soldiers surrounding the area and pushing people back. Ambulances streamed from the area to local hospitals.

The operation appeared to be winding down in the early evening. Pakistani military spokesman, Asim Bajwa, said on Twitter that the operation to clear the school was "closing up." He said 11 more staff members had been rescued from inside the school.

The information minister for the province, Mushtaq Ghani, said 126 people were killed in the attack. Most of the dead were students, children and teenagers from the school, he said. Hospital officials said earlier that at least one teacher and a paramilitary soldier were among the dead.

Pervez Khattak, the chief minister of the province where Peshawar is located, said fighting was still underway in some parts of the school.

The prime minister vowed that the country would not be cowed by the violence and that the military would continue with an aggressive operation launched in June in the North Waziristan tribal area to rout militants.

"The fight will continue. No one should have any doubt about it," Sharif said.

It was not clear how many students and staff remained still inside the facility. A student who escaped and a police official on the scene earlier said that at one point, about 200 students were being held hostage. Both spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to media.

One of the wounded students, Abdullah Jamal, said that he was with a group of 8th, 9th and 10th graders who were getting first-aid instructions and training with a team of Pakistani army medics when the violence began for real.

When the shooting started, Jamal, who was shot in the leg, said nobody knew what was going on in the first few seconds.

"Then I saw children falling down who were crying and screaming. I also fell down. I learned later that I have got a bullet," he said, speaking from his hospital bed.

Another student, Amir Mateen, said they locked the door from the inside when they heard the shooting but gunmen blasted through the door anyway and started shooting.

The school is located on the edge of a military cantonment in Peshawar, but the bulk of the students are civilian.

There was conflicting information about how many attackers carried out the violence, but it was a relatively small number.

Taliban spokesman Mohammed Khurasani claimed responsibility for the attack in a phone call to media, saying that six suicide bombers had carried out the attack in revenge for the killings of Taliban members at the hands of Pakistani authorities. But the chief minister said there were eight attackers, dressed in military uniforms. Two were killed by security forces and one blew himself up, Khattak said. The rest were still fighting.

Peshawar has been the target of frequent militant attacks in the past but has seen a relative lull recently.

The Pakistani military launched the military operation in the nearby North Waziristan tribal area in June, vowing that it would go after all militant groups that had been operating in the region. With the launch of the operation, security officials and civilians feared a backlash by militants targeted by the military but until Tuesday, a widespread backlash had failed to materialize.

Tuesday's attack calls into question whether the militants have been crippled by the military or will be able to regroup. This appeared to be the worst attack in Pakistan since the 2008 suicide bombing in the port city of Karachi killed 150 people.

The violence also underscored the vulnerability of Pakistani schools, which was dramatically exposed in the attack two years ago on Malala Yousafzai, a Pakistani girl shot in the head by a Taliban gunman outside her school in Swat Valley for daring to speak up about girls' rights. She survived, becoming a Nobel Prize laureate and global advocate for girls' education but out of security concerns has never returned to Pakistan.

Militants have also blown up schools in the northwest.

"I am heartbroken by this senseless and cold blooded act of terror in Peshawar that is unfolding before us," said Malala in a statement. "I, along with millions of others around the world, mourn these children, my brothers and sisters, but we will never be defeated."

Associated Press writers Asif Shahzad and Rebecca Santana in Islamabad, and Danica Kirka in London contributed to this report.

Copyright 2014 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


----------



## NJG

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: That was so funny! Now remember, I said he had a good body for his age. His head is another area entirely. Unfortunately, he has rather large 'sticking out' ears.


Oh my yes, his ears do stick out a bit, don't they? They are pretty distracting. Poor fella, has a decent body, "for his age," but bad ears.


----------



## Poor Purl

Wombatnomore said:


> Nah, it's the weight of those ears! Imagine having to lug those around 24/7? It's a good thing men don't wear earrings because Mr. Abbott would also have to grapple with the long, stretched lobes. Ghastly thought.


But think how good chandeliers would look dangling from those pie plates.


----------



## Poor Purl

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm envious, Evie. Not of the aching muscles, of course, but rather the nice weather you're obviously experiencing. It's been positively gloomy here in "sunny" California--three days of rain, and when I peeked out the window a few minute ago I noticed it had started up again. Bleah!


We seem to have stolen your weather. It's been really nice here for the most part. When rain is forecast, it may rain, but not for long. And it's warm enough to walk around without a hat or gloves. You stole our Dodgers, and now we're getting a bit of our own back.


----------



## Poor Purl

MaidInBedlam said:


> It never seems to end, does it? People in Peshawar may not be celebrating Christmas but I'm sure, like most ordinary people all over the world, they want "Peace on earth, goodwill to all."
> 
> *Taliban storm Pakistani school, killing 126*
> Associated Press: RIAZ KHAN
> 1 hr ago
> 
> PESHAWAR, Pakistan (AP)  Taliban gunmen stormed a military-run school in the northwestern Pakistani city of Peshawar on Tuesday, killing 126 people, officials said, in the worst attack to hit the country in years.
> 
> The overwhelming majority of the victims were students at the army public school, which has children and teenagers in grades 1-10. Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif condemned the assault and rushed to Peshawar to show his support for the victims.
> 
> The horrific attack, carried out by a relatively small number of militants from the Tehreek-e-Taliban, a Pakistani militant group trying to overthrow the government, also sent dozens of wounded flooding into local hospitals as terrified parents searched for their children.
> 
> "My son was in uniform in the morning. He is in a casket now," wailed one parent, Tahir Ali, as he came to the hospital to collect the body of his 14-year-old son Abdullah. "My son was my dream. My dream has been killed."
> 
> Army commandos quickly arrived at the scene and started exchanging fire with the gunmen, he said. Students wearing their green school uniforms could be seen on Pakistani television, fleeing the area.
> 
> Outside the school, two loud booms of unknown origin were heard coming from the scene in the early afternoon, as Pakistani troops battled with the attackers. Armored personnel carriers were deployed around the school grounds, and a Pakistani military helicopter circled overhead.
> 
> Details were sketchy in the face of the overwhelming tragedy. Pakistani television showed soldiers surrounding the area and pushing people back. Ambulances streamed from the area to local hospitals.
> 
> The operation appeared to be winding down in the early evening. Pakistani military spokesman, Asim Bajwa, said on Twitter that the operation to clear the school was "closing up." He said 11 more staff members had been rescued from inside the school.
> 
> The information minister for the province, Mushtaq Ghani, said 126 people were killed in the attack. Most of the dead were students, children and teenagers from the school, he said. Hospital officials said earlier that at least one teacher and a paramilitary soldier were among the dead.
> 
> Pervez Khattak, the chief minister of the province where Peshawar is located, said fighting was still underway in some parts of the school.
> 
> The prime minister vowed that the country would not be cowed by the violence and that the military would continue with an aggressive operation launched in June in the North Waziristan tribal area to rout militants.
> 
> "The fight will continue. No one should have any doubt about it," Sharif said.
> 
> It was not clear how many students and staff remained still inside the facility. A student who escaped and a police official on the scene earlier said that at one point, about 200 students were being held hostage. Both spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to media.
> 
> One of the wounded students, Abdullah Jamal, said that he was with a group of 8th, 9th and 10th graders who were getting first-aid instructions and training with a team of Pakistani army medics when the violence began for real.
> 
> When the shooting started, Jamal, who was shot in the leg, said nobody knew what was going on in the first few seconds.
> 
> "Then I saw children falling down who were crying and screaming. I also fell down. I learned later that I have got a bullet," he said, speaking from his hospital bed.
> 
> Another student, Amir Mateen, said they locked the door from the inside when they heard the shooting but gunmen blasted through the door anyway and started shooting.
> 
> The school is located on the edge of a military cantonment in Peshawar, but the bulk of the students are civilian.
> 
> There was conflicting information about how many attackers carried out the violence, but it was a relatively small number.
> 
> Taliban spokesman Mohammed Khurasani claimed responsibility for the attack in a phone call to media, saying that six suicide bombers had carried out the attack in revenge for the killings of Taliban members at the hands of Pakistani authorities. But the chief minister said there were eight attackers, dressed in military uniforms. Two were killed by security forces and one blew himself up, Khattak said. The rest were still fighting.
> 
> Peshawar has been the target of frequent militant attacks in the past but has seen a relative lull recently.
> 
> The Pakistani military launched the military operation in the nearby North Waziristan tribal area in June, vowing that it would go after all militant groups that had been operating in the region. With the launch of the operation, security officials and civilians feared a backlash by militants targeted by the military but until Tuesday, a widespread backlash had failed to materialize.
> 
> Tuesday's attack calls into question whether the militants have been crippled by the military or will be able to regroup. This appeared to be the worst attack in Pakistan since the 2008 suicide bombing in the port city of Karachi killed 150 people.
> 
> The violence also underscored the vulnerability of Pakistani schools, which was dramatically exposed in the attack two years ago on Malala Yousafzai, a Pakistani girl shot in the head by a Taliban gunman outside her school in Swat Valley for daring to speak up about girls' rights. She survived, becoming a Nobel Prize laureate and global advocate for girls' education but out of security concerns has never returned to Pakistan.
> 
> Militants have also blown up schools in the northwest.
> 
> "I am heartbroken by this senseless and cold blooded act of terror in Peshawar that is unfolding before us," said Malala in a statement. "I, along with millions of others around the world, mourn these children, my brothers and sisters, but we will never be defeated."
> 
> Associated Press writers Asif Shahzad and Rebecca Santana in Islamabad, and Danica Kirka in London contributed to this report.
> 
> Copyright 2014 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


Thus spake George W. Bush:

September 2002: The Talibans ability to brutalize the Afghan people and to harbor and support terrorists has been *virtually eliminated*.

September 2004: And as a result of the United States military, *Taliban no longer is in existence*. And the people of Afghanistan are now free.

December 2004: In Afghanistan, America and our allies, with a historically small force and a brilliant strategy, *defeated the Taliban in just a few short weeks*.

October 2005: Over the years these extremists have used a litany of excuses for violence  the Israeli presence on the West Bank, or the U.S. military presence in Saudi Arabia, or the *defeat of the Taliban*, or the Crusades of a thousand years ago.


----------



## jbandsma

Poor Purl said:


> Thus spake George W. Bush:
> 
> September 2002: The Talibans ability to brutalize the Afghan people and to harbor and support terrorists has been *virtually eliminated*.
> 
> September 2004: And as a result of the United States military, *Taliban no longer is in existence*. And the people of Afghanistan are now free.
> 
> December 2004: In Afghanistan, America and our allies, with a historically small force and a brilliant strategy, *defeated the Taliban in just a few short weeks*.
> 
> October 2005: Over the years these extremists have used a litany of excuses for violence  the Israeli presence on the West Bank, or the U.S. military presence in Saudi Arabia, or the *defeat of the Taliban*, or the Crusades of a thousand years ago.


And he never even bothered to consider that fighting the forces that became the Taliban (with US support) is what ended the Soviet Union.


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> And he never even bothered to consider that fighting the forces that became the Taliban (with US support) is what ended the Soviet Union.


Can anyone name something that Bush _did_ bother to consider?


----------



## MindyT

jbandsma said:


> People are saying that only 1/3 of registered voters 'turned out' to vote but they are forgetting the huge numbers of places where voters normally would turn out but have been disenfranchised. From disallowing forms of ID (for instance, veterans' ID cards have been declared not valid for voting) to voter roll purges without checking to see if people really need to be taken off to 50,000 new voter registrations that somehow got "lost" to intimidation and actual threats in certain communities if people did show up to vote to reducing the number of voting machine and moving polling places to facilities to out of the way locations where there's no possible public transportation and little or no parking to reducing or eliminating the days and times for people to vote...people who are unable to get time off work to go to the polls.
> 
> Those things did just what they were meant to do...kept people at home on election day. And now that republicans control the whole congress, you can look for it to get even worse.
> 
> The funniest thing is that the only real cases of the voter fraud they say they are trying to prevent have been committed by republicans. Like Ann Coulter.


 Boy, ain't it da' trut'. Voter registration papers, closing polls in poorer neighborhoods, huge long lines for others. Shameful.
Why can't we vote on weekends? Why can't we urge people who are shut ins or minorities to vote by mail. I love voting by mail. You have all your written material there and can take all the time you need and if you miss going to the polling place, drop off your ballot.


----------



## NJG

MindyT said:


> Boy, ain't it da' trut'. Voter registration papers, closing polls in poorer neighborhoods, huge long lines for others. Shameful.
> Why can't we vote on weekends? Why can't we urge people who are shut ins or minorities to vote by mail. I love voting by mail. You have all your written material there and can take all the time you need and if you miss going to the polling place, drop off your ballot.


I have been voting by mail for years. I always had to work late on Tuesday and when I got off work I was ready to just go home. The last thing I wanted to do was go vote. 
One of the things some states have done is get rid of Sunday voting. When I have asked what kind of voter fraud that was suppose to curtail, I never got an answer. The real reason is, they want to stop the "souls to the polls," when African Americans go to church and then are bused to the voting place, although they won't admit that.


----------



## MarilynKnits

cookiequeen said:


> Can someone who makes potato latkes tell me if I need to put in something for binding? The recipe in our paper called for potato starch, whatever that is, and I wonder if I can substitute corn starch or just omit that stuff. My other paper added matzo in place of the potato starch. I just want to try making a small amount since DH is diabetic. Just want a taste.


I was busy all day yesterday and just got on KP this afternoon. If nobody else answered, you can use any kind of flour, wheat, rice, soy, or matzo meal, or whiz bread crumbs fine.


----------



## Camacho

Why do I keep reading "omnibus" as in what just got passed in DC, as "ominous?"


----------



## Wombatnomore

susanmos2000 said:


> You think so? I glimpsed only his head in the televised news footage, but those ears! Like two open cab doors. Taxi!


 :XD: :XD: :XD: Great description. I have to agree with you. Cab doors they are!


----------



## BrattyPatty

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: Great description. I have to agree with you. Cab doors they are!


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: With a Cadillac nose!


----------



## Wombatnomore

jbandsma said:


> People are saying that only 1/3 of registered voters 'turned out' to vote but they are forgetting the huge numbers of places where voters normally would turn out but have been disenfranchised. From disallowing forms of ID (for instance, veterans' ID cards have been declared not valid for voting) to voter roll purges without checking to see if people really need to be taken off to 50,000 new voter registrations that somehow got "lost" to intimidation and actual threats in certain communities if people did show up to vote to reducing the number of voting machine and moving polling places to facilities to out of the way locations where there's no possible public transportation and little or no parking to reducing or eliminating the days and times for people to vote...people who are unable to get time off work to go to the polls.
> 
> Those things did just what they were meant to do...kept people at home on election day. And now that republicans control the whole congress, you can look for it to get even worse.
> 
> The funniest thing is that the only real cases of the voter fraud they say they are trying to prevent have been committed by republicans. Like Ann Coulter.


That's not only outrageous, it's very sad. Sad because it seems no one is doing anything to rectify the situation and bring those doing this to be accountable. Outrageous because there are politicians, supposedly unscrupulous in every way, flagrantly breaking probably actual laws and defying natural justice for their own ends.

Is America really in that much of a mess? How on earth will these problems be resolved? Are they resolvable?


----------



## SQM

Wombatnomore said:


> That's not only outrageous, it's very sad. Sad because it seems no one is doing anything to rectify the situation and bring those doing this to be accountable. Outrageous because there are politicians, supposedly unscrupulous in every way, flagrantly breaking probably actual laws and defying natural justice for their own ends.
> 
> Is America really in that much of a mess? How on earth will these problems be resolved? Are they resolvable?


I think your description fits many countries. The world is totally globalized.


----------



## Wombatnomore

MaidInBedlam said:


> It never seems to end, does it? People in Peshawar may not be celebrating Christmas but I'm sure, like most ordinary people all over the world, they want "Peace on earth, goodwill to all."
> 
> *Taliban storm Pakistani school, killing 126*
> Associated Press: RIAZ KHAN
> 1 hr ago
> 
> PESHAWAR, Pakistan (AP)  Taliban gunmen stormed a military-run school in the northwestern Pakistani city of Peshawar on Tuesday, killing 126 people, officials said, in the worst attack to hit the country in years.
> 
> The overwhelming majority of the victims were students at the army public school, which has children and teenagers in grades 1-10. Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif condemned the assault and rushed to Peshawar to show his support for the victims.
> 
> The horrific attack, carried out by a relatively small number of militants from the Tehreek-e-Taliban, a Pakistani militant group trying to overthrow the government, also sent dozens of wounded flooding into local hospitals as terrified parents searched for their children.
> 
> "My son was in uniform in the morning. He is in a casket now," wailed one parent, Tahir Ali, as he came to the hospital to collect the body of his 14-year-old son Abdullah. "My son was my dream. My dream has been killed."
> 
> Army commandos quickly arrived at the scene and started exchanging fire with the gunmen, he said. Students wearing their green school uniforms could be seen on Pakistani television, fleeing the area.
> 
> Outside the school, two loud booms of unknown origin were heard coming from the scene in the early afternoon, as Pakistani troops battled with the attackers. Armored personnel carriers were deployed around the school grounds, and a Pakistani military helicopter circled overhead.
> 
> Details were sketchy in the face of the overwhelming tragedy. Pakistani television showed soldiers surrounding the area and pushing people back. Ambulances streamed from the area to local hospitals.
> 
> The operation appeared to be winding down in the early evening. Pakistani military spokesman, Asim Bajwa, said on Twitter that the operation to clear the school was "closing up." He said 11 more staff members had been rescued from inside the school.
> 
> The information minister for the province, Mushtaq Ghani, said 126 people were killed in the attack. Most of the dead were students, children and teenagers from the school, he said. Hospital officials said earlier that at least one teacher and a paramilitary soldier were among the dead.
> 
> Pervez Khattak, the chief minister of the province where Peshawar is located, said fighting was still underway in some parts of the school.
> 
> The prime minister vowed that the country would not be cowed by the violence and that the military would continue with an aggressive operation launched in June in the North Waziristan tribal area to rout militants.
> 
> "The fight will continue. No one should have any doubt about it," Sharif said.
> 
> It was not clear how many students and staff remained still inside the facility. A student who escaped and a police official on the scene earlier said that at one point, about 200 students were being held hostage. Both spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to media.
> 
> One of the wounded students, Abdullah Jamal, said that he was with a group of 8th, 9th and 10th graders who were getting first-aid instructions and training with a team of Pakistani army medics when the violence began for real.
> 
> When the shooting started, Jamal, who was shot in the leg, said nobody knew what was going on in the first few seconds.
> 
> "Then I saw children falling down who were crying and screaming. I also fell down. I learned later that I have got a bullet," he said, speaking from his hospital bed.
> 
> Another student, Amir Mateen, said they locked the door from the inside when they heard the shooting but gunmen blasted through the door anyway and started shooting.
> 
> The school is located on the edge of a military cantonment in Peshawar, but the bulk of the students are civilian.
> 
> There was conflicting information about how many attackers carried out the violence, but it was a relatively small number.
> 
> Taliban spokesman Mohammed Khurasani claimed responsibility for the attack in a phone call to media, saying that six suicide bombers had carried out the attack in revenge for the killings of Taliban members at the hands of Pakistani authorities. But the chief minister said there were eight attackers, dressed in military uniforms. Two were killed by security forces and one blew himself up, Khattak said. The rest were still fighting.
> 
> Peshawar has been the target of frequent militant attacks in the past but has seen a relative lull recently.
> 
> The Pakistani military launched the military operation in the nearby North Waziristan tribal area in June, vowing that it would go after all militant groups that had been operating in the region. With the launch of the operation, security officials and civilians feared a backlash by militants targeted by the military but until Tuesday, a widespread backlash had failed to materialize.
> 
> Tuesday's attack calls into question whether the militants have been crippled by the military or will be able to regroup. This appeared to be the worst attack in Pakistan since the 2008 suicide bombing in the port city of Karachi killed 150 people.
> 
> The violence also underscored the vulnerability of Pakistani schools, which was dramatically exposed in the attack two years ago on Malala Yousafzai, a Pakistani girl shot in the head by a Taliban gunman outside her school in Swat Valley for daring to speak up about girls' rights. She survived, becoming a Nobel Prize laureate and global advocate for girls' education but out of security concerns has never returned to Pakistan.
> 
> Militants have also blown up schools in the northwest.
> 
> "I am heartbroken by this senseless and cold blooded act of terror in Peshawar that is unfolding before us," said Malala in a statement. "I, along with millions of others around the world, mourn these children, my brothers and sisters, but we will never be defeated."
> 
> Associated Press writers Asif Shahzad and Rebecca Santana in Islamabad, and Danica Kirka in London contributed to this report.
> 
> Copyright 2014 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


Horrifying and incomprehensible. I read today that some think this was done in retaliation to Malala Yousafzai winning the Nobel Peace Prize for her efforts to ensure every child has an education.

Even more sickening if this is true. :-(


----------



## Wombatnomore

Poor Purl said:


> But think how good chandeliers would look dangling from those pie plates.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: But not as funny as what comes out of his pie hole!


----------



## Wombatnomore

BrattyPatty said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: With a Cadillac nose!


 :XD: :XD: :XD: Perfect!


----------



## BrattyPatty

Wombatnomore said:


> That's not only outrageous, it's very sad. Sad because it seems no one is doing anything to rectify the situation and bring those doing this to be accountable. Outrageous because there are politicians, supposedly unscrupulous in every way, flagrantly breaking probably actual laws and defying natural justice for their own ends.
> 
> Is America really in that much of a mess? How on earth will these problems be resolved? Are they resolvable?


Wombat, yes, America is a mess. There is too much partisan politics that are keeping our country stagnant and even going back in time in some instances.
It seems like the fight for Civil Rights was all in vain for the way things are happening today. These are the very people who's rights were tampered with all of the gerrymandering of voting districts.


----------



## jbandsma

Wombatnomore said:


> That's not only outrageous, it's very sad. Sad because it seems no one is doing anything to rectify the situation and bring those doing this to be accountable. Outrageous because there are politicians, supposedly unscrupulous in every way, flagrantly breaking probably actual laws and defying natural justice for their own ends.
> 
> Is America really in that much of a mess? How on earth will these problems be resolved? Are they resolvable?


The Supreme Court declared that racism no longer exists and gutted the voting rights act. States that wanted that had plans already drawn up waiting for the decision. Within HOURS of the news, the new rules were implemented and have been getting harsher almost by the day.


----------



## Wombatnomore

SQM said:


> I think your description fits many countries. The world is totally globalized.


You're right. We often hear here that we're behind the rest of the world playing catch up and our political soap opera is in constant decline. It's not a matter of 'there but for the grace...' it's, a matter of biding time.


----------



## DGreen

Wombatnomore said:


> Is America really in that much of a mess?


Yes.


----------



## Wombatnomore

America is one country of many (including my own) who will not take responsibility for the minority groups therein. It angers me no end that our government, who have been dancing to their own tune about including our first people, the Aboriginal People, in the Australian Constitution are putting this incredibly important act off.

The latest is that our PM Tony Abbott wants to take the matter to a referendum in 2017!!! A referendum? WTF? To me, it's a no brainer. The Aboriginal People should have been written into the Constitution when it was first penned by an Aboriginal Elder who should have been among the authors.

What is wrong with people?


----------



## Poor Purl

Camacho said:


> Why do I keep reading "omnibus" as in what just got passed in DC, as "ominous?"


Because you can read between the lines. Ominous is exactly how it feels.


----------



## Poor Purl

Wombatnomore said:


> That's not only outrageous, it's very sad. Sad because it seems no one is doing anything to rectify the situation and bring those doing this to be accountable. Outrageous because there are politicians, supposedly unscrupulous in every way, flagrantly breaking probably actual laws and defying natural justice for their own ends.
> 
> Is America really in that much of a mess? How on earth will these problems be resolved? Are they resolvable?


1. Yes. 2. Who knows? 3. I'm afraid not.


----------



## BrattyPatty

jbandsma said:


> The Supreme Court declared that racism no longer exists and gutted the voting rights act. States that wanted that had plans already drawn up waiting for the decision. Within HOURS of the news, the new rules were implemented and have been getting harsher almost by the day.


Well, wasn't that white of them. (choke choke)
I wonder just how rich judges like Scalia really are.


----------



## jbandsma

BrattyPatty said:


> Well, wasn't that white of them. (choke choke)
> I wonder just how rich judges like Scalia really are.


A lot richer than he was when he was first seated.


----------



## BrattyPatty

Happy Hanukkah to our Jewish friends here. 

May the lights of Hanukkah usher in a better world for all humankind. ~Author Unknown

Kindle the taper like the steadfast star
Ablaze on evening's forehead o'er the earth,
And add each night a lustre till afar
An eightfold splendor shine above thy hearth.
~Emma Lazarus, "The Feast of Lights"


----------



## BrattyPatty

jbandsma said:


> A lot richer than he was when he was first seated.


Out of all them (and don't ask me for a reason,) I don't trust him. 
Juts a gut feeling


----------



## Poor Purl

BrattyPatty said:


> Happy Hanukkah to our Jewish friends here.
> 
> May the lights of Hanukkah usher in a better world for all humankind. ~Author Unknown
> 
> Kindle the taper like the steadfast star
> Ablaze on evening's forehead o'er the earth,
> And add each night a lustre till afar
> An eightfold splendor shine above thy hearth.
> ~Emma Lazarus, "The Feast of Lights"


How sweet of you, Patty. Thanks. Unfortunately, the Hanukkah story is one of war. You know, the usual Israel story.


----------



## BrattyPatty

Poor Purl said:


> How sweet of you, Patty. Thanks. Unfortunately, the Hanukkah story is one of war. You know, the usual Israel story.


OOPS   
So Hanukkah is not a yearly celebration, but more of an observance?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Happy Hanukkah to all of my Jewish friends!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

As I see it, Hanukkah is the celebration of a people who refused to be persecuted any longer and of their living GOD who heard their prayers and gave them a miracle. Please forgive me, if I'm wrong.


----------



## SQM

BrattyPatty said:


> Happy Hanukkah to our Jewish friends here.
> 
> May the lights of Hanukkah usher in a better world for all humankind. ~Author Unknown
> 
> Kindle the taper like the steadfast star
> Ablaze on evening's forehead o'er the earth,
> And add each night a lustre till afar
> An eightfold splendor shine above thy hearth.
> ~Emma Lazarus, "The Feast of Lights"


That was so beautiful, Brat. Thanks so for remember us. We share the Miracle of the Lights with all our friends here and wish all of you shalom.

Thanks also to Nebs and any future poster. Blessings on your heads.

It is a minor holiday- guerilla fighters winning (temporarily) against the Establishment [who?]. Of course it has been commercialized so that consumerism in the States has been a serious practice for decades now. But there seems to be few holidays left that don't have consumerism as a big part of it.


----------



## Poor Purl

BrattyPatty said:


> OOPS
> So Hanukkah is not a yearly celebration, but more of an observance?


I'd say it was both. It commemorates an incident (not entirely believable) during the Maccabee rebellion against the ruling Greeks.


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Happy Hanukkah to all of my Jewish friends!


Thank you, Nebraska.


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> As I see it, Hanukkah is the celebration of a people who refused to be persecuted any longer and of their living GOD who heard their prayers and gave them a miracle. Please forgive me, if I'm wrong.


That's certainly the story I first heard in elementary school.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

Wombatnomore said:


> America is one country of many (including my own) who will not take responsibility for the minority groups therein. It angers me no end that our government, who have been dancing to their own tune about including our first people, the Aboriginal People, in the Australian Constitution are putting this incredibly important act off.
> 
> The latest is that our PM Tony Abbott wants to take the matter to a referendum in 2017!!! A referendum? WTF? To me, it's a no brainer. The Aboriginal People should have been written into the Constitution when it was first penned by an Aboriginal Elder who should have been among the authors.
> 
> What is wrong with people?


Any changes to the Constitution MUST go to the electors in a Referendum. This is outlined in section 128 of the Constitution.

Unfortunately Tony Abbott has the call on when the Bills to change the Constitution are, 
1. put before both Houses of Parliament, and then, 
2. submitted to the electors of Australia in a Referendum.

The Constitution Act requires these steps be taken.

It is the law that the referendum be held, but Tony must be brought to heel as to why he is delaying the process.

Changing the Australian Constitution to recognise First Nations Peoples can only be made by way of a referendum. The process as set out in section 128 of the Constitution requires that An amendment to the Constitution be:

1. Passed by an absolute majority of both Houses of the Federal Parliament, or by one House twice; and

2. At a referendum, passed by a majority of the people as a whole, and by a majority of the people in a majority of the states.

Indigenous Australians are no longer mentioned in the Constitution (due to the referendum in 1967). In recent years there have been discussions about recognising Indigenous Australians in a preamble to the Constitution and about changing the main part of the Constitution to include a section which outlaws racial discrimination.

The Australian Constitution can be changed by referendum according to the rules set out in section 128 of the Constitution. A proposed change must first be approved as a bill by the federal Parliament. It is then sent to the Governor-General in order for a writ to be issued so a referendum can occur.

A referendum is a national ballot on a question to change the Australian Constitution. In a referendum the Parliament asks each Australian on the electoral roll to vote. If a majority of people in a majority of states and a majority of people across the nation as a whole vote 'yes' (called a double majority), then the proposal to amend the Constitution is agreed to. Otherwise the Constitution remains unchanged.
http://www.peo.gov.au/learning/closer-look/the-australian-constitution/how-the-constitution-can-be-changed.html

REFERENDUMS TO ALTER THE CONSTITUTION: WHAT IS REQUIRED TO ACHIEVE CHANGE?
Workshop on Constitutional Reform and Recognition of First Nations Peoples, National Congress of Australias First Peoples, 8 June 2011

Changing the Australian Constitution to recognise First Nations Peoples can only be made by way of a referendum. 
The process as set out in section 128 of the Constitution requires that
an amendment to the Constitution be:

1. passed by an absolute majority of both Houses of the Federal Parliament, or by one House twice; *and*
2. at a referendum, passed by a majority of the people as a whole, and by a majority of the people in a majority of the states.

Since Federation in 1901, 44 referendum proposals have been put to the Australian people with only eight of those succeeding.

The most successful referendum in Australia's history was one put to the people in 1967. The proposal to delete discriminatory references to Aboriginal People from the Australia Constitution attracted an over 90% Yes vote.

http://nationalcongress.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/George-Williams-NCAFP-2011.pdf


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> That's certainly the story I first heard in elementary school.


Darn it! Now you've got me intrigued and I don't have any time for study!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

EveMCooke said:


> Any changes to the Constitution MUST go to the electors in a Referendum. This is outlined in section 128 of the Constitution.
> 
> Unfortunately Tony Abbott has the call on when the Bills to change the Constitution are,
> 1. put before both Houses of Parliament, and then,
> 2. submitted to the electors of Australia in a Referendum.
> 
> The Constitution Act requires these steps be taken.
> 
> It is the law that the referendum be held, but Tony must be brought to heel as to why he is delaying the process.
> 
> Changing the Australian Constitution to recognise First Nations Peoples can only be made by way of a referendum. The process as set out in section 128 of the Constitution requires that An amendment to the Constitution be:
> 
> 1. Passed by an absolute majority of both Houses of the Federal Parliament, or by one House twice; and
> 
> 2. At a referendum, passed by a majority of the people as a whole, and by a majority of the people in a majority of the states.
> 
> Indigenous Australians are no longer mentioned in the Constitution (due to the referendum in 1967). In recent years there have been discussions about recognising Indigenous Australians in a preamble to the Constitution and about changing the main part of the Constitution to include a section which outlaws racial discrimination.
> 
> The Australian Constitution can be changed by referendum according to the rules set out in section 128 of the Constitution. A proposed change must first be approved as a bill by the federal Parliament. It is then sent to the Governor-General in order for a writ to be issued so a referendum can occur.
> 
> A referendum is a national ballot on a question to change the Australian Constitution. In a referendum the Parliament asks each Australian on the electoral roll to vote. If a majority of people in a majority of states and a majority of people across the nation as a whole vote 'yes' (called a double majority), then the proposal to amend the Constitution is agreed to. Otherwise the Constitution remains unchanged.
> http://www.peo.gov.au/learning/closer-look/the-australian-constitution/how-the-constitution-can-be-changed.html
> 
> REFERENDUMS TO ALTER THE CONSTITUTION: WHAT IS REQUIRED TO ACHIEVE CHANGE?
> Workshop on Constitutional Reform and Recognition of First Nations Peoples, National Congress of Australias First Peoples, 8 June 2011
> 
> Changing the Australian Constitution to recognise First Nations Peoples can only be made by way of a referendum.
> The process as set out in section 128 of the Constitution requires that
> an amendment to the Constitution be:
> 
> 1. passed by an absolute majority of both Houses of the Federal Parliament, or by one House twice; *and*
> 2. at a referendum, passed by a majority of the people as a whole, and by a majority of the people in a majority of the states.
> 
> Since Federation in 1901, 44 referendum proposals have been put to the Australian people with only eight of those succeeding.
> 
> The most successful referendum in Australia's history was one put to the people in 1967. The proposal to delete discriminatory references to Aboriginal People from the Australia Constitution attracted an over 90% Yes vote.
> 
> http://nationalcongress.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/George-Williams-NCAFP-2011.pdf


Am I understanding you correctly? Your Constitution does not guarantee equal rights to Aboriginals?


----------



## jbandsma

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Am I understanding you correctly? Your Constitution does not guarantee equal rights to Aboriginals?


Ours did not even recognize Native Americans as citizens until 1924. Women got the right to vote before Native Americans did.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

jbandsma said:


> Ours did not even recognize Native Americans as citizens until 1924. Women got the right to vote before Native Americans did.


Yes, but that was nine decades ago. Ninety years! Better late than never.


----------



## Camacho

Poor Purl said:


> How sweet of you, Patty. Thanks. Unfortunately, the Hanukkah story is one of war. You know, the usual Israel story.


Yes, an uncle who came from a Jewish family once said that every Jewish holiday can be summed up as, "Someone tried to destroy us. We survived. Let's eat." This holiday's explanation in those terms is, "the Temple was destroyed. It was rededicated. Miraculously there was more oil than it had appeared that there was. Let's eat food that has been fried in oil."

Happy Hanukkah, everyone!
May shalom envelop all creation.


----------



## DGreen

Camacho said:


> Yes, an uncle who came from a Jewish family once said that every Jewish holiday can be summed up as, "Someone tried to destroy us. We survived. Let's eat." This holiday's explanation in those terms is, "the Temple was destroyed. It was rededicated. Miraculously there was more oil than it had appeared that there was. Let's eat food that has been fried in oil."
> 
> Happy Hanukkah, everyone!
> May shalom envelop all creation.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## jbandsma

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Yes, but that was nine decades ago. Ninety years! Better late than never.


But they still aren't allowed to use that citizenship, so what's the difference? The same as gutting the civil rights act is a first step toward removing citizenship from people with more melatonin in their skin.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

Camacho said:


> Yes, an uncle who came from a Jewish family once said that every Jewish holiday can be summed up as, "Someone tried to destroy us. We survived. Let's eat." This holiday's explanation in those terms is, "the Temple was destroyed. It was rededicated. Miraculously there was more oil than it had appeared that there was. Let's eat food that has been fried in oil."
> 
> Happy Hanukkah, everyone!
> May shalom envelop all creation.


This seems to make excellent sense. Celebrate and feast while you can and make sure it's really good. Happy Hanukkah!


----------



## Knitted by Nan

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Am I understanding you correctly? Your Constitution does not guarantee equal rights to Aboriginals?


No, you are misunderstanding me. The Constitution does guarantee equal rights to our Indigenous Aboriginals. Equal rights were granted in the the 1967 referendum when the people voted to delete discriminatory references to Aboriginal People from the Australia Constitution. It was Australia's most successful referendum, it attracted an over 90% Yes vote.

The Constitution needs to be amended to show that the Indigenous Aboriginals are the original owners of Australia. A completely different issue.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Yes, but that was nine decades ago. Ninety years! Better late than never.


Yes, but remember America has a longer history of white settlement than Australia. White occupation of Australia only dates back to 1788. When was America settled by white people, a lot earlier.


----------



## SQM

Camacho said:


> Yes, an uncle who came from a Jewish family once said that every Jewish holiday can be summed up as, "Someone tried to destroy us. We survived. Let's eat." This holiday's explanation in those terms is, "the Temple was destroyed. It was rededicated. Miraculously there was more oil than it had appeared that there was. Let's eat food that has been fried in oil."
> 
> Happy Hanukkah, everyone!
> May shalom envelop all creation.


Oh good a Jewish uncle for Our Camacho. PP and I will take you to Katz's Deli when you are in NYC.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Camacho said:


> Yes, an uncle who came from a Jewish family once said that every Jewish holiday can be summed up as, "Someone tried to destroy us. We survived. Let's eat." This holiday's explanation in those terms is, "the Temple was destroyed. It was rededicated. Miraculously there was more oil than it had appeared that there was. Let's eat food that has been fried in oil."
> 
> Happy Hanukkah, everyone!
> May shalom envelop all creation.


 :thumbup:


----------



## Knitted by Nan

I was in the middle of typing my last post when my son came in and said "mum, will you give me a hand to give Snowdrop a bath, please." It was nearly 11.30 pm, thank goodness it is summer and we have warm evenings here. Snowdrop is the beautiful cat from around the corner, we have been feeding him for over 10 years. I paid for him to have the snip over 10 years ago. His owners are off the planet most of the time and forget to feed him. Poor little boy, he was alive with fleas, he had been rolling in the dirt to get rid of them and was absolutely filthy, and he is a white cat. He is such a gentle soul, he did not protest too much at having a bath. I used the cat shampoo we buy from the vet for our own cats, it has a flea deterrent in it. I scrubbed his head and face and he meowed a bit, but soon quietened down when we were speaking to him. He seemed much happier to be rid of his fleas, he is outside eating the meal we gave him. Such a shame, such a beautiful creature to be owned by such uncaring people. I just cannot understand why they let him roam the neighbourhood, why they do not take good care of him, he deserves it.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

jbandsma said:


> But they still aren't allowed to use that citizenship, so what's the difference? The same as gutting the civil rights act is a first step toward removing citizenship from people with more melatonin in their skin.


I don't know what you're talking about. There are a lot of Native Americans in this part of the country. I know some of them personally. They exercise their rights of citizenship all the time. In case you were speaking of black people, my dil is black. Her family is black. I've black friends. All of them exercise their rights of citizenship!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

EveMCooke said:


> No, you are misunderstanding me. The Constitution does guarantee equal rights to our Indigenous Aboriginals. Equal rights were granted in the the 1967 referendum when the people voted to delete discriminatory references to Aboriginal People from the Australia Constitution. It was Australia's most successful referendum, it attracted an over 90% Yes vote.
> 
> The Constitution needs to be amended to show that the Indigenous Aboriginals are the original owners of Australia. A completely different issue.


Oh! OK, thank you for clarifying.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

EveMCooke said:


> Yes, but remember America has a longer history of white settlement than Australia. White occupation of Australia only dates back to 1788. When was America settled by white people, a lot earlier.


I was speaking under the mistaken notion that your Constitution did not grant equal rights to Aboriginals. You cleared that up, for me. Thank you!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

EveMCooke said:


> I was in the middle of typing my last post when my son came in and said "mum, will you give me a hand to give Snowdrop a bath, please." It was nearly 11.30 pm, thank goodness it is summer and we have warm evenings here. Snowdrop is the beautiful cat from around the corner, we have been feeding him for over 10 years. I paid for him to have the snip over 10 years ago. His owners are off the planet most of the time and forget to feed him. Poor little boy, he was alive with fleas, he had been rolling in the dirt to get rid of them and was absolutely filthy, and he is a white cat. He is such a gentle soul, he did not protest too much at having a bath. I used the cat shampoo we buy from the vet for our own cats, it has a flea deterrent in it. I scrubbed his head and face and he meowed a bit, but soon quietened down when we were speaking to him. He seemed much happier to be rid of his fleas, he is outside eating the meal we gave him. Such a shame, such a beautiful creature to be owned by such uncaring people. I just cannot understand why they let him roam the neighbourhood, why they do not take good care of him, he deserves it.


That's so sad! It was good of you to come to his rescue. Thank goodness that there are people like you in this world. It gives me hope for the future.


----------



## jbandsma

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I was speaking under the mistaken notion that your Constitution did not grant equal rights to Aboriginals. You cleared that up, for me. Thank you!


It didn't. It took an amendment to get that and people who live on the reservation are more and more denied the right to vote because they don't have valid identification. As for African Americans exercising their right to vote, yes they do...in places where they are permitted to do so. Places that are shrinking. How long before we go back to the original designation of 3/5 of a person?


----------



## jbandsma

Sorry, I hit reply to the wrong post.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

jbandsma said:


> It didn't. It took an amendment to get that and people who live on the reservation are more and more denied the right to vote because they don't have valid identification. As for African Americans exercising their right to vote, yes they do...in places where they are permitted to do so. Places that are shrinking. How long before we go back to the original designation of 3/5 of a person?


I was speaking of their Constitution in the present. I'm not even going to respond to the rest!


----------



## Knitted by Nan

jbandsma said:


> Sorry, I hit reply to the wrong post.


Thanks for the update. I was wondering because we in Australia go to great lengths to make sure that all eligible people cast their votes, regardless of their race. We fly mobile voting booths out to remote Aboriginal homelands where there may only be 20 people living. If they are enrolled to vote we make sure they can vote. That is all that is required in Australia, that people are enrolled to vote. We do not require voter identification on election day. We can also lodge postal votes or early votes if we are going to be away from Australia on voting day, or cannot vote on election day because of religious observations. Our voting day is always Saturday, so Jewish people cast early votes.


----------



## jbandsma

I guess even people here don't keep up with the suppression of votes in order to keep the BSC's in office.

http://thinkprogress.org/election/2014/10/24/3583565/south-dakota-native-american-voter-suppression/
FORT THOMPSON, SOUTH DAKOTA  The Crow Creek Indian Reservation lies along the Missouri River in central South Dakota, an area marked by rolling hills of corn fields, a government-constructed dam and a Native American town centered around the tribes casino.
While South Dakotans across the state have been voting for weeks  the state offers 46 days of early absentee voting  the Crow Creek Sioux have yet to see their ballots. The closest early voting site is a 50 mile roundtrip away in Gann Valley, a town with a population of 14. The Buffalo County auditor, a white resident of the town, has refused to set aside federal funds to open a satellite office for early voting on the reservation this year.
That 50-mile trip is effectively impossible for many people on the reservation. Sixty-five-year-old Crow Creek resident Sylvia Walters lives in a government-subsidized apartment building for the elderly and disabled in Fort Thompson, the largest town on Crow Creek. She told ThinkProgress that because she doesnt have a car, she has to pay someone to drive her if she wants to leave her immediate part of town. I stay home a lot. Lets put it that way, she said. Although she plans on voting in November, she said she would have preferred having the option to vote early. Sometimes you forget on the day or youre busy, she said. This way when youre thinking about it you can get it done.
-------------------------------

If you're a member of the Red Lake Indian Reservation in northwestern Minnesota, voting early in an election isn't easy. The closest voting booth is 35 miles away, in Bemidji. You've got to have a car, which can be scarce. You've got to drive those miles, park, head back. Costs can add up quick, just to submit a ballot.

"That's about 35, 36, probably 40 dollars. That's a 40 dollar fee," says Bret Healy, a consultant with the Native American voting rights group Four Directions. "That's also assuming you've got access to a reliable automobile." .

-------------------------------------------

Mark Wandering Medicine has sacrificed more than most for his country. He served six years in the US marines, fought through the bloodiest years of the Vietnam war and almost lost a leg when his scouting unit was ambushed near the North Vietnamese border in 1972.

Since he returned home to the Northern Cheyenne reservation in Montana, however, he has received scant thanks for his service. He spent 13 years battling government bureaucrats before receiving his first disability payment. Like many Native Americans raised on desperately poor reservations in remote parts of the country, he has never lived far from the poverty line.

Now he is fighting once more, this time to overcome a century and a half of disenfranchisement and secure voting rights for his fellow Native Americans. He has barely voted over the past 40 years, not because he hasn't wanted to but because it has been too difficult. The only sure way to register to vote, he says, is to make a 157-mile round trip from his home to the nearest county seat.

There is no public transport, and most people can't afford the trip  even assuming they have a working car with valid license plates and insurance, which is rarely the case. The few who do make the journey have to run a gauntlet of racism and hostility that, they say, can often land them in jail on charges of drunkenness and public disorder.

-----------------------------

Need more? There's plenty


----------



## Camacho

SQM said:


> Oh good a Jewish uncle for Our Camacho. PP and I will take you to Katz's Deli when you are in NYC.


oh goody! Thanks! I'm looking forward to that. Yum.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

jbandsma said:


> I guess even people here don't keep up with the suppression of votes in order to keep the BSC's in office.
> 
> http://thinkprogress.org/election/2014/10/24/3583565/south-dakota-native-american-voter-suppression/
> FORT THOMPSON, SOUTH DAKOTA  The Crow Creek Indian Reservation lies along the Missouri River in central South Dakota, an area marked by rolling hills of corn fields, a government-constructed dam and a Native American town centered around the tribes casino.
> While South Dakotans across the state have been voting for weeks  the state offers 46 days of early absentee voting  the Crow Creek Sioux have yet to see their ballots. The closest early voting site is a 50 mile roundtrip away in Gann Valley, a town with a population of 14. The Buffalo County auditor, a white resident of the town, has refused to set aside federal funds to open a satellite office for early voting on the reservation this year.
> That 50-mile trip is effectively impossible for many people on the reservation. Sixty-five-year-old Crow Creek resident Sylvia Walters lives in a government-subsidized apartment building for the elderly and disabled in Fort Thompson, the largest town on Crow Creek. She told ThinkProgress that because she doesnt have a car, she has to pay someone to drive her if she wants to leave her immediate part of town. I stay home a lot. Lets put it that way, she said. Although she plans on voting in November, she said she would have preferred having the option to vote early. Sometimes you forget on the day or youre busy, she said. This way when youre thinking about it you can get it done.
> -------------------------------
> 
> If you're a member of the Red Lake Indian Reservation in northwestern Minnesota, voting early in an election isn't easy. The closest voting booth is 35 miles away, in Bemidji. You've got to have a car, which can be scarce. You've got to drive those miles, park, head back. Costs can add up quick, just to submit a ballot.
> 
> "That's about 35, 36, probably 40 dollars. That's a 40 dollar fee," says Bret Healy, a consultant with the Native American voting rights group Four Directions. "That's also assuming you've got access to a reliable automobile." .
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> 
> Mark Wandering Medicine has sacrificed more than most for his country. He served six years in the US marines, fought through the bloodiest years of the Vietnam war and almost lost a leg when his scouting unit was ambushed near the North Vietnamese border in 1972.
> 
> Since he returned home to the Northern Cheyenne reservation in Montana, however, he has received scant thanks for his service. He spent 13 years battling government bureaucrats before receiving his first disability payment. Like many Native Americans raised on desperately poor reservations in remote parts of the country, he has never lived far from the poverty line.
> 
> Now he is fighting once more, this time to overcome a century and a half of disenfranchisement and secure voting rights for his fellow Native Americans. He has barely voted over the past 40 years, not because he hasn't wanted to but because it has been too difficult. The only sure way to register to vote, he says, is to make a 157-mile round trip from his home to the nearest county seat.
> 
> There is no public transport, and most people can't afford the trip  even assuming they have a working car with valid license plates and insurance, which is rarely the case. The few who do make the journey have to run a gauntlet of racism and hostility that, they say, can often land them in jail on charges of drunkenness and public disorder.
> 
> -----------------------------
> 
> Need more? There's plenty


Voting is a Constitutional right. Voting early, is not. These people have the option of receiving a ballot by mail and mailing it back, or voting on election day. I don't see how they're being denied the right to vote. If I wanted to vote early, in person, I would have a 20 mile round trip, and an hour in the car. So, that's not limited to minorities. I don't want to waste the gas either, so I just vote on election day. It doesn't make sense to fund locations for early voting throughout this country. This country has more rural space than urban space. The costs would be formidable!

As to the guy who can't drive to the county seat, to register to vote? He doesn't have to! The National Voter Registration Act of 1993, makes it possible for him to register wherever he gets his driver's license and license plates. There are no time constraints. He can do it anytime, during business hours. I know that you're going to tell me that some people don't have a car. My answer is that everyone knows someone with a car. If they can get a ride to buy groceries, they can get a ride to register to vote. In addition, both parties provide rides to polling places. Keep in mind that anyone receiving government aid is issued a government identification card. So, there goes the excuse that the poor don't have ID.

There's an agenda in this country, to try and make people think that minorities aren't able to vote. It's not true! They're just trying to make it easier for illegal aliens to vote, because they vote for democrats. If there are any who cannot register to vote, and then place their vote, that number would be relatively miniscule. If they want to vote without expending any effort at all, well too bad! Sometimes being a citizen requires that we expend effort.


----------



## jbandsma

I love how people look at what's going on and do their best to deny that it's happening.

Well, if republicans get their way, you're probably next. Women have been on the hit list for a long time.

BTW, so far the majority of voter fraud that has been proven has been committed by republicans.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/21/shocker-republicans-account-for-most-cases-of-u-s-voter-fraud/


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## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Darn it! Now you've got me intrigued and I don't have any time for study!


Study wouldn't have done you any good. It's simply a question of whether there was a miracle or that was a story someone made up. I think I read somewhere that the story first became known 600 years after the incident, so all kinds of ornamentation had been sewn onto the original tale.


----------



## Poor Purl

Camacho said:


> Yes, an uncle who came from a Jewish family once said that every Jewish holiday can be summed up as, "Someone tried to destroy us. We survived. Let's eat." This holiday's explanation in those terms is, "the Temple was destroyed. It was rededicated. Miraculously there was more oil than it had appeared that there was. Let's eat food that has been fried in oil."
> 
> Happy Hanukkah, everyone!
> May shalom envelop all creation.


Yay for your uncle. It's a perfect description. (Except on Yom Kippur, when they say "let's not eat.")


----------



## Poor Purl

SQM said:


> Oh good a Jewish uncle for Our Camacho. PP and I will take you to Katz's Deli when you are in NYC.


I can't eat at Katz's - it's not kosher. I guess I could get a salad there. Maybe the Second Ave. Deli (which is over on First Ave.)?


----------



## SQM

Poor Purl said:


> I can't eat at Katz's - it's not kosher. I guess I could get a salad there. Maybe the Second Ave. Deli (which is over on First Ave.)?


Oh - who would have thunk that Katz's was not kosher. I have never been to Second on First. But if our esteemed visitor from Mass. is willing, so am I.


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Voting is a Constitutional right. Voting early, is not. These people have the option of receiving a ballot by mail and mailing it back, or voting on election day.


Apparently you missed the first paragraph, " While South Dakotans across the state have been voting for weeks  the state offers 46 days of early absentee voting  the Crow Creek Sioux have yet to see their ballots <on October 24>. The closest early voting site is a 50 mile roundtrip away in Gann Valley, a town with a population of 14. The Buffalo County auditor, a white resident of the town, has refused to set aside federal funds to open a satellite office for early voting on the reservation this year. "



> I don't see how they're being denied the right to vote. If I wanted to vote early, in person, I would have a 20 mile round trip, and an hour in the car. So, that's not limited to minorities. I don't want to waste the gas either, so I just vote on election day. It doesn't make sense to fund locations for early voting throughout this country. This country has more rural space than urban space. The costs would be formidable!


So voting by mail would be optimal, but even that is withheld.



> As to the guy who can't drive to the county seat, to register to vote? He doesn't have to! The National Voter Registration Act of 1993, makes it possible for him to register wherever he gets his driver's license and license plates. There are no time constraints. He can do it anytime, during business hours. I know that you're going to tell me that some people don't have a car. My answer is that everyone knows someone with a car. If they can get a ride to buy groceries, they can get a ride to register to vote. In addition, both parties provide rides to polling places. Keep in mind that anyone receiving government aid is issued a government identification card. So, there goes the excuse that the poor don't have ID.


You seem to think the reservations are set up like cities. But even going by what you say, the driver may have a govt-issued ID, but there's no reason his passengers would. And some states have narrowed the type of card they will accept so that only two types would be acceptable (one of them being - and I'm not making this up - a handgun permit).



> There's an agenda in this country, to try and make people think that minorities aren't able to vote. It's not true! They're just trying to make it easier for illegal aliens to vote, because they vote for democrats. If there are any who cannot register to vote, and then place their vote, that number would be relatively miniscule. If they want to vote without expending any effort at all, well too bad! Sometimes being a citizen requires that we expend effort.


I see you've been reading the far-right-wing blogs again. Just because you have illegal aliens on the brain doesn't mean that's what the Republican-ruling state legislatures are really concerned with.


----------



## Camacho

SQM said:


> Oh - who would have thunk that Katz's was not kosher. I have never been to Second on First. But if our esteemed visitor from Mass. is willing, so am I.


I will be happy to eat wherever you take me. We should PM for details. I'm looking forward to this trip.


----------



## NJG

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Voting is a Constitutional right. Voting early, is not. These people have the option of receiving a ballot by mail and mailing it back, or voting on election day. I don't see how they're being denied the right to vote. If I wanted to vote early, in person, I would have a 20 mile round trip, and an hour in the car. So, that's not limited to minorities. I don't want to waste the gas either, so I just vote on election day. It doesn't make sense to fund locations for early voting throughout this country. This country has more rural space than urban space. The costs would be formidable!
> 
> As to the guy who can't drive to the county seat, to register to vote? He doesn't have to! The National Voter Registration Act of 1993, makes it possible for him to register wherever he gets his driver's license and license plates. There are no time constraints. He can do it anytime, during business hours. I know that you're going to tell me that some people don't have a car. My answer is that everyone knows someone with a car. If they can get a ride to buy groceries, they can get a ride to register to vote. In addition, both parties provide rides to polling places. Keep in mind that anyone receiving government aid is issued a government identification card. So, there goes the excuse that the poor don't have ID.
> 
> There's an agenda in this country, to try and make people think that minorities aren't able to vote. It's not true! They're just trying to make it easier for illegal aliens to vote, because they vote for democrats. If there are any who cannot register to vote, and then place their vote, that number would be relatively miniscule. If they want to vote without expending any effort at all, well too bad! Sometimes being a citizen requires that we expend effort.


There is an agenda in this country of republican states trying to make it harder for minorities to vote. Provide fewer places to vote so after standing in line for an hour, a person will leave because they have to go to work or for whatever reason can't wait any longer. In Ohio, there was a segment on tv showing how closing a polling space caused a great hardship for voters, by first requiring a long bus ride and then a long walk from the bus stop to the polling place. Of course this was a polling place in a black community. The difference is you believe their line of rhetoric as to the reason they do these things, and I don't. All they talk about is stopping voter fraud, of which there is very very little. One question I have asked and never got an answer to is why a county or state would decrease early voting especially targeting the Sunday before election day? It is because that is African Americans Souls to the Polls voting day, when they go to church and then are bussed to the polls. Why don't they encourage that instead of wanting to get rid of it?


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> I love how people look at what's going on and do their best to deny that it's happening.
> 
> Well, if republicans get their way, you're probably next. Women have been on the hit list for a long time.
> 
> BTW, so far the majority of voter fraud that has been proven has been committed by republicans.
> 
> http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/21/shocker-republicans-account-for-most-cases-of-u-s-voter-fraud/


Yes the "great" Ann Coulter herself has committed voter fraud.


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> Yes the "great" Ann Coulter herself has committed voter fraud.


Incredibly, she actually thinks that womens' right to vote should be repealed.

Boggles the mind.


----------



## BrattyPatty

DGreen said:


> Incredibly, she actually thinks that womens' right to vote should be repealed.
> 
> Boggles the mind.


And this the voice of the Republican party?? God help them.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

jbandsma said:


> I love how people look at what's going on and do their best to deny that it's happening.
> 
> Well, if republicans get their way, you're probably next. Women have been on the hit list for a long time.
> 
> BTW, so far the majority of voter fraud that has been proven has been committed by republicans.
> 
> http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/21/shocker-republicans-account-for-most-cases-of-u-s-voter-fraud/


Yes, and it happens to those on BOTH sides of the aisle. It's called Confirmation Bias. http://socialmediasun.com/confirmation-bias/

BTW, here's an article from a liberal blog that disses your source as plagiarism. I don't think I'll even bother to read it. After all, "addicting info.org"??? Really?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> Study wouldn't have done you any good. It's simply a question of whether there was a miracle or that was a story someone made up. I think I read somewhere that the story first became known 600 years after the incident, so all kinds of ornamentation had been sewn onto the original tale.


It would be sad if that were true. Many generations of people have celebrated the miracle.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> Apparently you missed the first paragraph, " While South Dakotans across the state have been voting for weeks  the state offers 46 days of early absentee voting  the Crow Creek Sioux have yet to see their ballots <on October 24>. The closest early voting site is a 50 mile roundtrip away in Gann Valley, a town with a population of 14. The Buffalo County auditor, a white resident of the town, has refused to set aside federal funds to open a satellite office for early voting on the reservation this year. "
> 
> Apparently, you missed the fact that the article was making reference to voting by satellite office and said nothing about mail in ballots.


----------



## jbandsma

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Poor Purl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently you missed the first paragraph, " While South Dakotans across the state have been voting for weeks  the state offers 46 days of early absentee voting  the Crow Creek Sioux have yet to see their ballots <on October 24>. The closest early voting site is a 50 mile roundtrip away in Gann Valley, a town with a population of 14. The Buffalo County auditor, a white resident of the town, has refused to set aside federal funds to open a satellite office for early voting on the reservation this year. "
> 
> Apparently, you missed the fact that the article was making reference to voting by satellite office and said nothing about mail in ballots.
> 
> 
> 
> Apparantly you missed the fact that it says they haven't even SEEN their ballots...which also refers to any mailed ones.
> 
> Have you ever tried to get an absentee (also known as a mail in) ballot. I have because it's almost impossible for me to get out anywhere. In the last 6 elections I have requested one...sometimes as many as 5 times. All I have ever gotten has been the run around until it's too late to submit one and then I get "We're sorry. Your request cannot be filled." And that's the only one that's ever even been acknowledged to have been received. I live in an area that is pretty solidly blue in a horribly red state.
Click to expand...


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> You seem to think the reservations are set up like cities. But even going by what you say, the driver may have a govt-issued ID, but there's no reason his passengers would. And some states have narrowed the type of card they will accept so that only two types would be acceptable (one of them being - and I'm not making this up - a handgun permit).
> 
> I grew up in South Dakota! I've been on reservations more times than I could count. I'm fully aware of what a reservation is. I even know someone who is in tribal government. I also know that everyone who lives on a reservation receives federal funds and has an ID card to cash their checks.
> 
> I'm not aware of any state who only accepts two forms of ID, one of which is a gun permit. But you would have to show ID to get the gun permit in the first place. In every state, you can get an official ID at the DMV. Even obamacare requires that you show ID!


----------



## jbandsma

Why don't you return to denim and pearls where your dislike of anything that doesn't cater to white privilege would be appreciated?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

NJG said:


> There is an agenda in this country of republican states trying to make it harder for minorities to vote. Provide fewer places to vote so after standing in line for an hour, a person will leave because they have to go to work or for whatever reason can't wait any longer. In Ohio, there was a segment on tv showing how closing a polling space caused a great hardship for voters, by first requiring a long bus ride and then a long walk from the bus stop to the polling place. Of course this was a polling place in a black community. The difference is you believe their line of rhetoric as to the reason they do these things, and I don't. All they talk about is stopping voter fraud, of which there is very very little. One question I have asked and never got an answer to is why a county or state would decrease early voting especially targeting the Sunday before election day? It is because that is African Americans Souls to the Polls voting day, when they go to church and then are bussed to the polls. Why don't they encourage that instead of wanting to get rid of it?


Employers are required to give people time off to vote. Both parties offer transportation to polling places. Excuses!

Early voting is a convenience but is not necessary.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

jbandsma said:


> Why don't you return to denim and pearls where your dislike of anything that doesn't cater to white privilege would be appreciated?


Obviously, you don't know me! But I will gladly leave you alone. I don't like trying to carry out discussions with close minded people!


----------



## SQM

BrattyPatty said:


> And this the voice of the Republican party?? God help them.


Have to comment on your holiday avatar. You always come up with the best! The Brat is funny!


----------



## MarilynKnits

Wombatnomore said:


> Horrifying and incomprehensible. I read today that some think this was done in retaliation to Malala Yousafzai winning the Nobel Peace Prize for her efforts to ensure every child has an education.
> 
> Even more sickening if this is true. :-(


The news here said that the perpetrators said the military was targeting their families and they retaliated against the families of the military. Apparently literally "an eye for an eye", and so horrific to think of innocent children being slaughtered to advance the agenda of terrorists.


----------



## MarilynKnits

Wombatnomore said:


> America is one country of many (including my own) who will not take responsibility for the minority groups therein. It angers me no end that our government, who have been dancing to their own tune about including our first people, the Aboriginal People, in the Australian Constitution are putting this incredibly important act off.
> 
> The latest is that our PM Tony Abbott wants to take the matter to a referendum in 2017!!! A referendum? WTF? To me, it's a no brainer. The Aboriginal People should have been written into the Constitution when it was first penned by an Aboriginal Elder who should have been among the authors.
> 
> What is wrong with people?


The same thing that is wrong with our people who have treated the indigenous residents, the Native Americans, abysmally throughout our history.


----------



## MarilynKnits

BrattyPatty said:


> Well, wasn't that white of them. (choke choke)
> I wonder just how rich judges like Scalia really are.


How can so called educated, worldly people be so clueless about the condition of people. Probably not clueless, probably they just don't care as long as they are living their cushy lives.


----------



## MarilynKnits

BrattyPatty said:


> Happy Hanukkah to our Jewish friends here.
> 
> May the lights of Hanukkah usher in a better world for all humankind. ~Author Unknown
> 
> Kindle the taper like the steadfast star
> Ablaze on evening's forehead o'er the earth,
> And add each night a lustre till afar
> An eightfold splendor shine above thy hearth.
> ~Emma Lazarus, "The Feast of Lights"


Sweet lady, thank you.


----------



## MarilynKnits

Poor Purl said:


> How sweet of you, Patty. Thanks. Unfortunately, the Hanukkah story is one of war. You know, the usual Israel story.


The basic script: They came to kill us. All, many, some, of us got away. We ate. There is some traditional food associated with almost every event in Jewish history.


----------



## MarilynKnits

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Happy Hanukkah to all of my Jewish friends!


Nice to hear from you. Thank you for the good wishes. Hope things have calmed down in your life and all is well.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

MarilynKnits said:


> Nice to hear from you. Thank you for the good wishes. Hope things have calmed down in your life and all is well.


Thanks, Marilyn! What is calm? I've forgotten. My dil is expecting quadruplets. No calm!


----------



## SQM

MarilynKnits said:


> How can so called educated, worldly people be so clueless about the condition of people. Probably not clueless, probably they just don't care as long as they are living their cushy lives.


It is not that they are clueless to the plight of the less-privileged. The rich believe that since they 'made-it', so can everyone else. The rich are against handouts to the poor who are capable of working. The rich believe that poor people have been working the system for generations and the rich see their tax-dollars as enabling able-bodied people from having the initiative to work - the poor make more money milking the system. This is what I learned from the Evils over the weekend.


----------



## MarilynKnits

Poor Purl said:


> I can't eat at Katz's - it's not kosher. I guess I could get a salad there. Maybe the Second Ave. Deli (which is over on First Ave.)?


Or you can go dairy and eat at Russ and Daughters new cafe on Orchard Street. Bagels and cream cheese and lox, oh my! And smoked white fish, and kippered salmon, and, and http://russanddaughters.com/. Anybody see the documentary on PBS, The Sturgeon Queens?


----------



## MarilynKnits

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, Marilyn! What is calm? I've forgotten. My dil is expecting quadruplets. No calm!


My prayers for her to have a comfortable pregnancy and healthy babies.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

MarilynKnits said:


> My prayers for her to have a comfortable pregnancy and healthy babies.


Thank you, Marilyn!


----------



## Poor Purl

DGreen said:


> Incredibly, she actually thinks that womens' right to vote should be repealed.
> 
> Boggles the mind.


That's because she's not really a woman. Have you not noticed her adam's apple?


----------



## BrattyPatty

Poor Purl said:


> That's because she's not really a woman. Have you not noticed her adam's apple?


If she stood sideways and stuck out her tongue, she would look like a zipper!


----------



## SQM

Poor Purl said:


> That's because she's not really a woman. Have you not noticed her adam's apple?


To whom are you referring?


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It would be sad if that were true. Many generations of people have celebrated the miracle.


You may see it as sad. I think it's wonderful that people can survive without supernatural help.


----------



## BrattyPatty

SQM said:


> To whom are you referring?


Ann Coulter


----------



## Wombatnomore

EveMCooke said:


> Any changes to the Constitution MUST go to the electors in a Referendum. This is outlined in section 128 of the Constitution.
> 
> Unfortunately Tony Abbott has the call on when the Bills to change the Constitution are,
> 1. put before both Houses of Parliament, and then,
> 2. submitted to the electors of Australia in a Referendum.
> 
> The Constitution Act requires these steps be taken.
> 
> It is the law that the referendum be held, but Tony must be brought to heel as to why he is delaying the process.
> 
> Changing the Australian Constitution to recognise First Nations Peoples can only be made by way of a referendum. The process as set out in section 128 of the Constitution requires that An amendment to the Constitution be:
> 
> 1. Passed by an absolute majority of both Houses of the Federal Parliament, or by one House twice; and
> 
> 2. At a referendum, passed by a majority of the people as a whole, and by a majority of the people in a majority of the states.
> 
> Indigenous Australians are no longer mentioned in the Constitution (due to the referendum in 1967). In recent years there have been discussions about recognising Indigenous Australians in a preamble to the Constitution and about changing the main part of the Constitution to include a section which outlaws racial discrimination.
> 
> The Australian Constitution can be changed by referendum according to the rules set out in section 128 of the Constitution. A proposed change must first be approved as a bill by the federal Parliament. It is then sent to the Governor-General in order for a writ to be issued so a referendum can occur.
> 
> A referendum is a national ballot on a question to change the Australian Constitution. In a referendum the Parliament asks each Australian on the electoral roll to vote. If a majority of people in a majority of states and a majority of people across the nation as a whole vote 'yes' (called a double majority), then the proposal to amend the Constitution is agreed to. Otherwise the Constitution remains unchanged.
> http://www.peo.gov.au/learning/closer-look/the-australian-constitution/how-the-constitution-can-be-changed.html
> 
> REFERENDUMS TO ALTER THE CONSTITUTION: WHAT IS REQUIRED TO ACHIEVE CHANGE?
> Workshop on Constitutional Reform and Recognition of First Nations Peoples, National Congress of Australias First Peoples, 8 June 2011
> 
> Changing the Australian Constitution to recognise First Nations Peoples can only be made by way of a referendum.
> The process as set out in section 128 of the Constitution requires that
> an amendment to the Constitution be:
> 
> 1. passed by an absolute majority of both Houses of the Federal Parliament, or by one House twice; *and*
> 2. at a referendum, passed by a majority of the people as a whole, and by a majority of the people in a majority of the states.
> 
> Since Federation in 1901, 44 referendum proposals have been put to the Australian people with only eight of those succeeding.
> 
> The most successful referendum in Australia's history was one put to the people in 1967. The proposal to delete discriminatory references to Aboriginal People from the Australia Constitution attracted an over 90% Yes vote.
> 
> http://nationalcongress.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/George-Williams-NCAFP-2011.pdf


Reminds me of being in politics lecture room all those years ago. Well done Eve!


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Poor Purl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently you missed the first paragraph, " While South Dakotans across the state have been voting for weeks  the state offers 46 days of early absentee voting  the Crow Creek Sioux have yet to see their ballots <on October 24>. The closest early voting site is a 50 mile roundtrip away in Gann Valley, a town with a population of 14. The Buffalo County auditor, a white resident of the town, has refused to set aside federal funds to open a satellite office for early voting on the reservation this year. "
> 
> Apparently, you missed the fact that the article was making reference to voting by satellite office and said nothing about mail in ballots.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think "absentee voting" consists of? Voting by mail. If people were voting in person in a satellite office, it wouldn't be absentee.
Click to expand...


----------



## Wombatnomore

EveMCooke said:


> Yes, but remember America has a longer history of white settlement than Australia. White occupation of Australia only dates back to 1788. When was America settled by white people, a lot earlier.


Still, that doesn't excuse Australia from not acknowledging the Aboriginal People as the first people in the original Constitution.

Shame on those responsible.


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Poor Purl said:
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to think the reservations are set up like cities. But even going by what you say, the driver may have a govt-issued ID, but there's no reason his passengers would. And some states have narrowed the type of card they will accept so that only two types would be acceptable (one of them being - and I'm not making this up - a handgun permit).
> 
> I grew up in South Dakota! I've been on reservations more times than I could count. I'm fully aware of what a reservation is. I even know someone who is in tribal government. I also know that everyone who lives on a reservation receives federal funds and has an ID card to cash their checks.
> 
> I'm not aware of any state who only accepts two forms of ID, one of which is a gun permit. But you would have to show ID to get the gun permit in the first place. In every state, you can get an official ID at the DMV. Even obamacare requires that you show ID!
> 
> 
> 
> Then you really do know more about the reservation than I do. But look up Texas, whose recent voting law was approved by SCOTUS. Its required ID is restrictive (I was exaggerating when I said two forms, or whatever is the opposite of exaggerating), and there are many official photo IDs that they won't accept.
> 
> Here's fun reading: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/19/us/supreme-court-upholds-texas-voter-id-law.html?_r=0
Click to expand...


----------



## Wombatnomore

MarilynKnits said:


> Or you can go dairy and eat at Russ and Daughters new cafe on Orchard Street. Bagels and cream cheese and lox, oh my! And smoked white fish, and kippered salmon, and, and http://russanddaughters.com/. Anybody see the documentary on PBS, The Sturgeon Queens?


Yum! This place is to die for! Wish they could deliver to Melbourne. We do have some fabulous deli's here. My favourite's are at the Queen Victoria Market in deli hall. Herewith a view and info about them:

http://www.qvm.com.au/shops-and-stalls-category/deli-hall/


----------



## Wombatnomore

BrattyPatty said:


> If she stood sideways and stuck out her tongue, she would look like a zipper!


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Employers are required to give people time off to vote. Both parties offer transportation to polling places. Excuses!
> 
> Early voting is a convenience but is not necessary.


Not 50-mile transportation. Neither party could afford that. And employers don't always do what's required of them. The lowest-paid workers would probably be docked for the time they took to vote, assuming they could get away at all.

We don't have early voting in New York, but at least in the city nobody is more than half a mile from their polling place. But I bet there are complaints upstate, and I wouldn't blame them.


----------



## SQM

Wombatnomore said:


> Yum! This place is to die for! Wish they could deliver to Melbourne. We do have some fabulous deli's here. My favourite's are at the Queen Victoria Market in deli hall. Herewith a view and info about them:
> 
> http://www.qvm.com.au/shops-and-stalls-category/deli-hall/


Our Great Wombat is more of a New Yorker than I am. And both Evem and Wombat know more about our country than do most of us of theirs.

I think I wrote an offensive post on a thread "Hallelujah". Did I really write that?


----------



## MindyT

SQM said:


> It is not that they are clueless to the plight of the less-privileged. The rich believe that since they 'made-it', so can everyone else. The rich are against handouts to the poor who are capable of working. The rich believe that poor people have been working the system for generations and the rich see their tax-dollars as enabling able-bodied people from having the initiative to work - the poor make more money milking the system. This is what I learned from the Evils over the weekend.


But,of course, " pull yourselves up by your boot straps". some people can't even afford the boots, so what shall they pull up pray tell??

Why oh why do we keep hearing about welfare and entitlements and none of the tax breaks,sweetheart deals and government bail outs are ever called Corporate Welfare. Gags me.

Maybe I missed it on the posts, but did everyone pick up on the rider added by the Republicans at the last minute and written by City Corp,, that we pay for any bail outs if the big boys get in trouble with derivatives. Good Lord, didn't anyone learn anything from 2007/2008!!!???


----------



## MindyT

Poor Purl said:


> That's because she's not really a woman. Have you not noticed her adam's apple?


I was just about to write that about her Adam's apple. 
This is why she appears on Faux! Ha ha
She is the Succubus of Life.


----------



## Wombatnomore

SQM said:


> Our Great Wombat is more of a New Yorker than I am. And both Evem and Wombat know more about our country than do most of us of theirs.
> 
> I think I wrote an offensive post on a thread "Hallelujah". Did I really write that?


Not offensive at all. In fact, I'd really like to see someone do that. It could be quite beautiful.


----------



## BrattyPatty

MindyT said:


> But,of course, " pull yourselves up by your boot straps". some people can't even afford the boots, so what shall they pull up pray tell??
> 
> Why oh why do we keep hearing about welfare and entitlements and none of the tax breaks,sweetheart deals and government bail outs are ever called Corporate Welfare. Gags me.
> 
> Maybe I missed it on the posts, but did everyone pick up on the rider added by the Republicans at the last minute and written by City Corp,, that we pay for any bail outs if the big boys get in trouble with derivatives. Good Lord, didn't anyone learn anything from 2007/2008!!!???


I guess not, Mindy. I was watching Elizabeth Warren giving them hell over this attachment to the bill. I have to say she fought long and hard to have it removed, but unfortunately, the big boys who steal the money are much more important than the American people.


----------



## SQM

BrattyPatty said:


> I guess not, Mindy. I was watching Elizabeth Warren giving them hell over this attachment to the bill. I have to say she fought long and hard to have it removed, but unfortunately, the big boys who steal the money are much more important than the American people.


Again I ask - What is Warren's foreign policy?


----------



## BrattyPatty

Why not google her and read all about it?


----------



## Poor Purl

MarilynKnits said:


> The news here said that the perpetrators said the military was targeting their families and they retaliated against the families of the military. Apparently literally "an eye for an eye", and so horrific to think of innocent children being slaughtered to advance the agenda of terrorists.


This is what tribalism leads to. The military is targeting us, these are children of the military, so we can do to them what we would like to do to their fathers but can't. On a much smaller level, it's what happened to the three Israeli boys killed on their way home from school.

But to shoot so many children purposely and up close shows that there's something lacking in the minds and hearts of these people.


----------



## Poor Purl

MarilynKnits said:


> How can so called educated, worldly people be so clueless about the condition of people. Probably not clueless, probably they just don't care as long as they are living their cushy lives.


There have recently been studies done on rich people that show they haven't a clue what's going on in the rest of the world, nor do they care, as long as they don't have to pay for anyone else's needs. What they worry about is noise from others' private planes flying too close to their homes.

I don't think Scalia is that rich, but being a Republican makes him act as though he is.


----------



## BrattyPatty

Poor Purl said:


> There have recently been studies done on rich people that show they haven't a clue what's going on in the rest of the world, nor do they care, as long as they don't have to pay for anyone else's needs. What they worry about is noise from others' private planes flying too close to their homes.
> 
> I don't think Scalia is that rich, but being a Republican makes him act as though he is.


Just so you all know, the beeach is back. I swear that Winding Road is one of her alter personalities. It must be hard trying to post as 2 people at once.
But then again, when your Cheryl, it should be pretty easy.


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, Marilyn! What is calm? I've forgotten. My dil is expecting quadruplets. No calm!


Okay, that's enough of your bragging. I have no dil, and nobody here is expecting anything, not even a new kitten. I'm sick and tired of hearing about everyone else's grandmotherhood. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Your dil has her work cut out for her, and therefore so have you. Is this the one who would have had triplets? What fecund daughters-in-law you have.


----------



## SQM

BrattyPatty said:


> Just so you all know, the beeach is back. I swear that Winding Road is one of her alter personalities. It must be hard trying to post as 2 people at once.
> But then again, when your Cheryl, it should be pretty easy.


Get Away! Cheryl Holland????? The Murderess? One of my favorite characters on KP???? Or the one that Yarnie posted about?


----------



## Poor Purl

MarilynKnits said:


> Or you can go dairy and eat at Russ and Daughters new cafe on Orchard Street. Bagels and cream cheese and lox, oh my! And smoked white fish, and kippered salmon, and, and http://russanddaughters.com/. Anybody see the documentary on PBS, The Sturgeon Queens?


No, but I live around the corner from Barney Greengrass, the Sturgeon King.

I've never liked smoked fish, and everyone knows how I feel about cream cheese. But I have no doubt there will be something there for me to eat.


----------



## BrattyPatty

SQM said:


> Get Away! Cheryl Holland????? The Murderess? One of my favorite characters on KP???? Or the one that Yarnie posted about?


Hard to say, SQ. With so many personalities going around in that head of hers.......


----------



## Poor Purl

Wombatnomore said:


> Yum! This place is to die for! Wish they could deliver to Melbourne. We do have some fabulous deli's here. My favourite's are at the Queen Victoria Market in deli hall. Herewith a view and info about them:
> 
> http://www.qvm.com.au/shops-and-stalls-category/deli-hall/


What a great-looking place. It must be huge to house all those shops of so many different kinds.


----------



## Poor Purl

SQM said:


> Our Great Wombat is more of a New Yorker than I am. And both Evem and Wombat know more about our country than do most of us of theirs.
> 
> I think I wrote an offensive post on a thread "Hallelujah". Did I really write that?


Was it offensive? I think it's offensive to take a song written by the descendant of rabbis and turn it into a Christian song. I love Cohen's lyrics; I don't even want to see what was done to goyicize them.

Now, that's probably offensive, but here among friends....


----------



## Poor Purl

MindyT said:


> But,of course, " pull yourselves up by your boot straps". some people can't even afford the boots, so what shall they pull up pray tell??
> 
> Why oh why do we keep hearing about welfare and entitlements and none of the tax breaks,sweetheart deals and government bail outs are ever called Corporate Welfare. Gags me.
> 
> Maybe I missed it on the posts, but did everyone pick up on the rider added by the Republicans at the last minute and written by City Corp,, that we pay for any bail outs if the big boys get in trouble with derivatives. Good Lord, didn't anyone learn anything from 2007/2008!!!???


Yes, but they're not as feisty as the Repugs. You could support thousands of poor families from the bailout of a single bank, but who would dare to point that out?


----------



## Poor Purl

MindyT said:


> I was just about to write that about her Adam's apple.
> This is why she appears on Faux! Ha ha
> She is the Succubus of Life.


Do you mean she sucks?


----------



## Poor Purl

BrattyPatty said:


> Just so you all know, the beeach is back. I swear that Winding Road is one of her alter personalities. It must be hard trying to post as 2 people at once.
> But then again, when your Cheryl, it should be pretty easy.


Yes, I saw. It was nice without her.

Being two-faced, she could easily post as two people at once, but I don't think she's Windy. (Oops, I do think she's windy, but not with a capital W.) Windy's English is not so fahncy, with "prior" and "that which" etc.


----------



## Poor Purl

SQM said:


> Get Away! Cheryl Holland????? The Murderess? One of my favorite characters on KP???? Or the one that Yarnie posted about?


The unknown one, Yarnie's mommy.


----------



## MarilynKnits

Wombatnomore said:


> Yum! This place is to die for! Wish they could deliver to Melbourne. We do have some fabulous deli's here. My favourite's are at the Queen Victoria Market in deli hall. Herewith a view and info about them:
> 
> http://www.qvm.com.au/shops-and-stalls-category/deli-hall/


Oh, wow, some of those places look amazing. Boreks are especially fun to make and nice to take for lunch. Interesting that there is a shop devoted to them. We call them bourekas, the Israeli name.


----------



## BrattyPatty

MarilynKnits said:


> Oh, wow, some of those places look amazing.


You guys are getting me hungry!!


----------



## NJG

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Employers are required to give people time off to vote. Both parties offer transportation to polling places. Excuses!
> 
> Early voting is a convenience but is not necessary.


Look at the population now as compared to 50 years ago. You would rather have people stand in line for hours and then not vote. That is your way of voter suppression. You think employers are going to give people time off to stand in line for hours to vote. You are so naive and not living in the real world. Why do you want to put obstacles in front of people and make it harder for people to vote. Is that how you get your jollies?


----------



## NJG

MindyT said:


> But,of course, " pull yourselves up by your boot straps". some people can't even afford the boots, so what shall they pull up pray tell??
> 
> Why oh why do we keep hearing about welfare and entitlements and none of the tax breaks,sweetheart deals and government bail outs are ever called Corporate Welfare. Gags me.
> 
> Maybe I missed it on the posts, but did everyone pick up on the rider added by the Republicans at the last minute and written by City Corp,, that we pay for any bail outs if the big boys get in trouble with derivatives. Good Lord, didn't anyone learn anything from 2007/2008!!!???


Yes that is what Elizabeth Warren was so upset about and why does city corp get to write what they want and put it in the bill. Who elected them to office. I have a real bad feeling about this country really going down the tubes before this gets stopped. The republicans will destroy us.


----------



## NJG

SQM said:


> Again I ask - What is Warren's foreign policy?


I think that is one of the reasons she isn't ready for the presidency yet. I haven't heard anything from her about foreign policy.


----------



## BrattyPatty

NJG said:


> I think that is one of the reasons she isn't ready for the presidency yet. I haven't heard anything from her about foreign policy.


We need more like her in the Senate. She is such an intelligent woman and what a fighter!


----------



## NJG

Poor Purl said:


> There have recently been studies done on rich people that show they haven't a clue what's going on in the rest of the world, nor do they care, as long as they don't have to pay for anyone else's needs. What they worry about is noise from others' private planes flying too close to their homes.
> 
> I don't think Scalia is that rich, but being a Republican makes him act as though he is.


Just think back to how out of touch Romney was. He had no clue how most of the people live, and I really mean no clue, he couldn't even guess what ordinary people did on a day to day basis.


----------



## NJG

BrattyPatty said:


> We need more like her in the Senate. She is such an intelligent woman and what a fighter!


Yes she is, and she has great future potential.


----------



## Designer1234

SQM said:


> Get Away! Cheryl Holland????? The Murderess? One of my favorite characters on KP???? Or the one that Yarnie posted about?


 :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


----------



## Designer1234

Hi there! I have been in the hospital for 3 days. Had another 'attack' and am feeling better today. Got out this afternoon. Will be back later. 

I hate the thought of our 'friend'#@%&+++being back!


----------



## BrattyPatty

Designer1234 said:


> Hi there! I have been in the hospital for 3 days. Had another 'attack' and am feeling better today. Got out this afternoon. Will be back later.
> 
> I hate the thought of our 'friend'#@%&+++being back!


Oh no!! What kind of attack, Shirl?? I hope you are Okay!


----------



## Cheeky Blighter

Designer1234 said:


> Hi there! I have been in the hospital for 3 days. Had another 'attack' and am feeling better today. Got out this afternoon. Will be back later.
> 
> I hate the thought of our 'friend'#@%&+++being back!


Sorry you were in the hospital, Shirley. Glad to hear you are home and hope you had no lasting affects from your attack.


----------



## SQM

Poor Purl said:


> Was it offensive? I think it's offensive to take a song written by the descendant of rabbis and turn it into a Christian song. I love Cohen's lyrics; I don't even want to see what was done to goyicize them.
> 
> Now, that's probably offensive, but here among friends....


Ha Ha. That was my implied meaning. I hope it ended that thread.


----------



## Designer1234

I'm okay, I have severe divertiulitis and had a vaso vagal attack and so ended up in hospital. I have had them before. This was a bad one so they decided to keep me for a day or too. They are trying to figure out what triggers them.

I am okay now , a bit washed out but glad to be home. 

I see there has been lots going on while I was away. I am glad about the Cuban business. We have never broken off from Cuba and have excellent relations with them. One of our main tourist places. Safer than Mexico.

Terrible about the children being slaughtered. 

I see 'she' is back. I figured if she was able to be on line she wouldn't be able to stay away. - I wondered about winding road but don't think so. I think WR 
is a different kind of nasty. jmo. -


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> Just think back to how out of touch Romney was. He had no clue how most of the people live, and I really mean no clue, he couldn't even guess what ordinary people did on a day to day basis.


And McCain, who didn't know how many homes he owned.


----------



## SQM

NJG said:


> I think that is one of the reasons she isn't ready for the presidency yet. I haven't heard anything from her about foreign policy.


I did find some info at the suggestion of our esteemed Brat. Seems Warren is playing it right down the middle re: dealing with foreign countries. Sort of "yes, but this". Google her with "foreign policy" after her name. It seemed like her responses are safe.

My LYS was bought out and will be moving to Lexington in the 70s. Seems like the owner is retiring but the staff will be the same. I cannot deal with change like I used to, moans a beaten Sloth.


----------



## SQM

Designer1234 said:


> Hi there! I have been in the hospital for 3 days. Had another 'attack' and am feeling better today. Got out this afternoon. Will be back later.
> 
> I hate the thought of our 'friend'#@%&+++being back!


Well I am H%^^y that you are back.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> What do you think "absentee voting" consists of? Voting by mail. If people were voting in person in a satellite office, it wouldn't be absentee.


The article in question, made no reference to casting ballots through the mail or absentee voting. It only referenced early voting at a satellite site. Therefore I cannot assume to know the rest of the story. Neither can you.


----------



## DGreen

Designer1234 said:


> I'm okay, I have severe divertiulitis and had a vaso vagal attack and so ended up in hospital. I have had them before. This was a bad one so they decided to keep me for a day or too. They are trying to figure out what triggers them.
> 
> I am okay now , a bit washed out but glad to be home.
> 
> I see there has been lots going on while I was away. I am glad about the Cuban business. We have never broken off from Cuba and have excellent relations with them. One of our main tourist places. Safer than Mexico.
> 
> Terrible about the children being slaughtered.
> 
> I see 'she' is back. I figured if she was able to be on line she wouldn't be able to stay away. - I wondered about winding road but don't think so. I think WR
> is a different kind of nasty. jmo. -


So glad you are home! Being in the hospital is awful.

Be well, friend.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> Then you really do know more about the reservation than I do. But look up Texas, whose recent voting law was approved by SCOTUS. Its required ID is restrictive (I was exaggerating when I said two forms, or whatever is the opposite of exaggerating), and there are many official photo IDs that they won't accept.
> 
> Here's fun reading: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/19/us/supreme-court-upholds-texas-voter-id-law.html?_r=0


I read the article but I don't think that it's very clear. It states, "The law enacted in 2011, requires voters seeking to cast their ballots at the polls to present photo identification like a Texas driver's license or gun license, a military ID or a passport.". So, why is the word " like" in there? It gives some examples but it doesn't say that only those examples are allowed, it says "like". That has me wondering what other forms of ID are " like" those.

I understand that you and most liberals are against voter ID laws. So, what would you propose as an alternative, to insure that only legal citizens are allowed to vote in this country? Where can the two sides come together?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> Not 50-mile transportation. Neither party could afford that. And employers don't always do what's required of them. The lowest-paid workers would probably be docked for the time they took to vote, assuming they could get away at all.
> 
> We don't have early voting in New York, but at least in the city nobody is more than half a mile from their polling place. But I bet there are complaints upstate, and I wouldn't blame them.


The article referenced 50 mile round trips for EARLY voting, not regular polling places. I've never seen any evidence that says people must travel 50 miles to vote on election day. If such evidence exists, please present it.


----------



## BrattyPatty

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I read the article but I don't think that it's very clear. It states, "The law enacted in 2011, requires voters seeking to cast their ballots at the polls to present photo identification like a Texas driver's license or gun license, a military ID or a passport.". So, why is the word " like" in there? It gives some examples but it doesn't say that only those examples are allowed, it says "like". That has me wondering what other forms of ID are " like" those.
> 
> I understand that you and most liberals are against voter ID laws. So, what would you propose as an alternative, to insure that only legal citizens are allowed to vote in this country? Where can the two sides come together?


I don't think that many illegals are standing in line to vote. Getting caught would mean a quick deportation for them. Same with felons. They would have a hefty fine to pay and would go right back to prison.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

MindyT said:


> But,of course, " pull yourselves up by your boot straps". some people can't even afford the boots, so what shall they pull up pray tell??
> 
> Why oh why do we keep hearing about welfare and entitlements and none of the tax breaks,sweetheart deals and government bail outs are ever called Corporate Welfare. Gags me.
> 
> Maybe I missed it on the posts, but did everyone pick up on the rider added by the Republicans at the last minute and written by City Corp,, that we pay for any bail outs if the big boys get in trouble with derivatives. Good Lord, didn't anyone learn anything from 2007/2008!!!???


I'm not critical of your statement, but please tell me what rider, on what bill, you are referring to. I've been hearing for years that we would have to bail out derivatives but have never heard where it was stated. The last I heard, the bankers had gambled somewhere around $1.2 quadrillion. There isn't even that much money in the world, is there? If what you say is true, every one of us needs to be screaming at our politicians and protesting in the streets. That would be the biggest theft ever! That would be our undoing. We could never recover from that. We would literally be slaves to the debt. Are we gonna stand for this?


----------



## Poor Purl

Designer1234 said:


> Hi there! I have been in the hospital for 3 days. Had another 'attack' and am feeling better today. Got out this afternoon. Will be back later.
> 
> I hate the thought of our 'friend'#@%&+++being back!


So sudden! I'm sorry. Hope you're over it completely.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> Okay, that's enough of your bragging. I have no dil, and nobody here is expecting anything, not even a new kitten. I'm sick and tired of hearing about everyone else's grandmotherhood. :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Your dil has her work cut out for her, and therefore so have you. Is this the one who would have had triplets? What fecund daughters-in-law you have.


I'm SORRY! I can't help it!  It takes over my thoughts, ALL the time. Same dil! Fertility treatment. This time, they said there were only two ripe eggs. They were wrong! You REALLY need to work on getting a dil! Grandbabies are much more fun than kittens. :lol: Maybe you could introduce your son to Ms Right or a surrogate. :lol:


----------



## BrattyPatty

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm not critical of your statement, but please tell me what rider, on what bill, you are referring to. I've been hearing for years that we would have to bail out derivatives but have never heard where it was stated. The last I heard, the bankers had gambled somewhere around $1.2 quadrillion. There isn't even that much money in the world, is there? If what you say is true, every one of us needs to be screaming at our politicians and protesting in the streets. That would be the biggest theft ever! That would be our undoing. We could never recover from that. We would literally be slaves to the debt. Are we gonna stand for this?


It was slipped in by the Republicans on the new spending bill. Elizabeth Warren and of course other Senators were fighting against it, but it was voted in as part of the bill. If the Wall Street thieves want another shot at us, it's theirs to take. We will have to bail them out once again. Awful, isn't it? I wish you would google her speeches on this matter. She called out Citi Group.


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The article in question, made no reference to casting ballots through the mail or absentee voting. It only referenced early voting at a satellite site. Therefore I cannot assume to know the rest of the story. Neither can you.


Here it is again.


> http://thinkprogress.org/election/2014/10/24/3583565/south-dakota-native-american-voter-s...
> FORT THOMPSON, SOUTH DAKOTA  The Crow Creek Indian Reservation lies along the Missouri River in central South Dakota, an area marked by rolling hills of corn fields, a government-constructed dam and a Native American town centered around the tribes casino.
> *While South Dakotans across the state have been voting for weeks  the state offers 46 days of early absentee voting  the Crow Creek Sioux have yet to see their ballots. The closest early voting site is a 50 mile roundtrip away in Gann Valley, a town with a population of 14. The Buffalo County auditor, a white resident of the town, has refused to set aside federal funds to open a satellite office for early voting on the reservation this year.*


It's the same paragraph I was so snotty about earlier. You read the end of it but missed the beginning. I bet you can't miss it now. :roll:


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I read the article but I don't think that it's very clear. It states, "The law enacted in 2011, requires voters seeking to cast their ballots at the polls to present photo identification like a Texas driver's license or gun license, a military ID or a passport.". So, why is the word " like" in there? It gives some examples but it doesn't say that only those examples are allowed, it says "like". That has me wondering what other forms of ID are " like" those.
> 
> I understand that you and most liberals are against voter ID laws. So, what would you propose as an alternative, to insure that only legal citizens are allowed to vote in this country? Where can the two sides come together?


We've never had to prove ourselves before. We have an interesting system in New York. The first time you register in a district, you put your signature on a page that goes into a big fat book. Every time you show up to vote, you sign your name on the next line of that page, and if the signatures are alike, you get to vote. Someone who really wants to vote illegally could, I suppose, practice my signature until she (or he) gets it right, but it's hardly worth the time. No other ID is necessary, no photos, no nothing. Just a signature. I can't see any need for anything else, unless (as has happened to me) your right arm is in a cast and you have to sign with your left hand. But even in that situation, no poll-watcher was suspicious; they both accepted me without question.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> Was it offensive? I think it's offensive to take a song written by the descendant of rabbis and turn it into a Christian song. I love Cohen's lyrics; I don't even want to see what was done to goyicize them.
> 
> Now, that's probably offensive, but here among friends....


I'm sorry you feel that way, but the words would just be words without the beautiful music. I listened to it. It was beautiful! Thank you, Leonard Cohen!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> Yes, but they're not as feisty as the Repugs. You could support thousands of poor families from the bailout of a single bank, but who would dare to point that out?


We should all be pointing that out! Bailing out the banks in the past was a drop in the ocean compared to bailing out the derivatives.


----------



## BrattyPatty

Poor Purl said:


> We've never had to prove ourselves before. We have an interesting system in New York. The first time you register in a district, you put your signature on a page that goes into a big fat book. Every time you show up to vote, you sign your name on the next line of that page, and if the signatures are alike, you get to vote. Someone who really wants to vote illegally could, I suppose, practice my signature until she (or he) gets it right, but it's hardly worth the time. No other ID is necessary, no photos, no nothing. Just a signature. I can't see any need for anything else, unless (as has happened to me) your right arm is in a cast and you have to sign with your left hand. But even in that situation, no poll-watcher was suspicious; they both accepted me without question.


When I moved to Minnesota, I had to bring proof of address on a utility bill to register to vote. Just my name with an address. It is pretty much the same at the polls. I just sign my name. I am against ID's to vote. Our ballot has always been 'private.' I would like to keep it that way.


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm not critical of your statement, but please tell me what rider, on what bill, you are referring to. I've been hearing for years that we would have to bail out derivatives but have never heard where it was stated. The last I heard, the bankers had gambled somewhere around $1.2 quadrillion. There isn't even that much money in the world, is there? If what you say is true, every one of us needs to be screaming at our politicians and protesting in the streets. That would be the biggest theft ever! That would be our undoing. We could never recover from that. We would literally be slaves to the debt. Are we gonna stand for this?


It's in the Omnibus whatzis bill that the House just passed - Omnibus Appropriations Bill. I get angry just thinking about it. Now, these are the guys sucking on the government's teat. While Congress keeps arguing about whether we can afford to pay for welfare or food stamps or Medicaid, the banksters now have permission to play with depositors' funds and, if they lose AGAIN, make the taxpayers pay it back.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

Designer1234 said:


> Hi there! I have been in the hospital for 3 days. Had another 'attack' and am feeling better today. Got out this afternoon. Will be back later.
> 
> I hate the thought of our 'friend'#@%&+++being back!


I am glad to hear you are on the road to recovery, I am sorry to hear that you were unwell. Did you manage to get any rest in hospital, they are not the best place for a rest, the nights are not quiet and not dark, so sleep is often difficult, plus they will not leave you alone, they are constantly prodding and jabbing you to see if you are OK. But glad you are feeling better and home again.


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm SORRY! I can't help it!  It takes over my thoughts, ALL the time. Same dil! Fertility treatment. This time, they said there were only two ripe eggs. They were wrong! You REALLY need to work on getting a dil! Grandbabies are much more fun than kittens. :lol: Maybe you could introduce your son to Ms Right or a surrogate. :lol:


Don't think I haven't tried. He gets huffy and says "I don't need your help to meet women." (Apparently he doesn't; his problem is in finding THE woman.)

Of course you think about those teeny weenies all the time. And you have to brag about them. I don't really mind, and if ever I do, I'll just sit here and cry quietly where nobody can hear me. But I don't believe that anything could be more fun than kittens.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

Designer1234 said:


> I'm okay, I have severe divertiulitis and had a vaso vagal attack and so ended up in hospital. I have had them before. This was a bad one so they decided to keep me for a day or too. They are trying to figure out what triggers them.
> 
> I am okay now , a bit washed out but glad to be home.
> 
> I see there has been lots going on while I was away. I am glad about the Cuban business. We have never broken off from Cuba and have excellent relations with them. One of our main tourist places. Safer than Mexico.
> 
> Terrible about the children being slaughtered.
> 
> I see 'she' is back. I figured if she was able to be on line she wouldn't be able to stay away. - I wondered about winding road but don't think so. I think WR
> is a different kind of nasty. jmo. -


Please do take it easy and relax. I know they say that there is no direct link between stress and diverticulitis, but stress may weaken the immune system in general, and you have had a lot of stress lately with your move, your husband's ill health and your own ill health. We are all thinking of you.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

NJG said:


> Look at the population now as compared to 50 years ago. You would rather have people stand in line for hours and then not vote. That is your way of voter suppression. You think employers are going to give people time off to stand in line for hours to vote. You are so naive and not living in the real world. Why do you want to put obstacles in front of people and make it harder for people to vote. Is that how you get your jollies?


I never said that I wanted people to stand in line for hours. How did you infer that from what I said? I think it's a very rare thing for people to stand in line for hours, to vote. You live in Iowa. That's just as real as where I live. When I vote, there's usually no line at all! And the article being referenced said nothing about people standing in line, to begin with. A red herring!

I am not for voter suppression! If you don't like the idea of voter ID, suggest an alternative that assures only legal citizens can vote and vote only once.

Why did you ask, "Is that how you get your jollies?". What have I ever said that would lead to to believe that I get my " jollies" from the suffering of others? We may disagree on some things, but REALLY?!?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

NJG said:


> Yes that is what Elizabeth Warren was so upset about and why does city corp get to write what they want and put it in the bill. Who elected them to office. I have a real bad feeling about this country really going down the tubes before this gets stopped. The republicans will destroy us.


I agree with you here!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Designer1234 said:


> Hi there! I have been in the hospital for 3 days. Had another 'attack' and am feeling better today. Got out this afternoon. Will be back later.
> 
> I hate the thought of our 'friend'#@%&+++being back!


Oh, Shirley! I'm so sorry! Was it the same as before? Have they found anything else! I will add you to my prayers! I hope you'll be fine. I'll be thinking of you.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Designer1234 said:


> I'm okay, I have severe divertiulitis and had a vaso vagal attack and so ended up in hospital. I have had them before. This was a bad one so they decided to keep me for a day or too. They are trying to figure out what triggers them.
> 
> I am okay now , a bit washed out but glad to be home.
> 
> I see there has been lots going on while I was away. I am glad about the Cuban business. We have never broken off from Cuba and have excellent relations with them. One of our main tourist places. Safer than Mexico.
> 
> Terrible about the children being slaughtered.
> 
> I see 'she' is back. I figured if she was able to be on line she wouldn't be able to stay away. - I wondered about winding road but don't think so. I think WR
> is a different kind of nasty. jmo. -


I hope they find out. I'm glad you're better!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

BrattyPatty said:


> It was slipped in by the Republicans on the new spending bill. Elizabeth Warren and of course other Senators were fighting against it, but it was voted in as part of the bill. If the Wall Street thieves want another shot at us, it's theirs to take. We will have to bail them out once again. Awful, isn't it? I wish you would google her speeches on this matter. She called out Citi Group.


I'll have to check it out. I've been so busy, I haven't been following any news. I'm appalled that they'd be so ballsy as to put it in a bill! Need to find out who voted for that. Honestly, when the derivatives crash (and they will), we're sunk! I can't believe they're going to make us pay it! What am I saying? Of course I can believe it! The derivatives are probably close to a crash and that's why they stuck it in there now. Don't you love how they stuck it in while everyone is busy preparing for the holidays? We've got to spread the word! If we the people do nothing, we're finished! $1.2 QUADRILLION!

Interesting article. "Here's what $1.2 quadrillion looks like".
http://moneymorning.com/2013/09/18/heres-what-1-2-quadrillion-looks-like/


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> It's the same paragraph I was so snotty about earlier. You read the end of it but missed the beginning. I bet you can't miss it now. :roll:


You're right! :shock: :lol:


----------



## BrattyPatty

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You're right! :shock: :lol:


When are those quads due, KFN??


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> We've never had to prove ourselves before. We have an interesting system in New York. The first time you register in a district, you put your signature on a page that goes into a big fat book. Every time you show up to vote, you sign your name on the next line of that page, and if the signatures are alike, you get to vote. Someone who really wants to vote illegally could, I suppose, practice my signature until she (or he) gets it right, but it's hardly worth the time. No other ID is necessary, no photos, no nothing. Just a signature. I can't see any need for anything else, unless (as has happened to me) your right arm is in a cast and you have to sign with your left hand. But even in that situation, no poll-watcher was suspicious; they both accepted me without question.


Did you break your arm? Was that lately? I hope it has healed well.

I'd have no problem continuing to vote in that manner if citizenship were shown at registration. But right now, anybody and their brother can go to the DMV and register.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

BrattyPatty said:


> When I moved to Minnesota, I had to bring proof of address on a utility bill to register to vote. Just my name with an address. It is pretty much the same at the polls. I just sign my name. I am against ID's to vote. Our ballot has always been 'private.' I would like to keep it that way.


Are you against ID to register?

BTW, the ballots are numbered. They write down which ballot they gave you. So, if they wanted to, they could know how you voted. Not necessarily private. Should be!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> It's in the Omnibus whatzis bill that the House just passed - Omnibus Appropriations Bill. I get angry just thinking about it. Now, these are the guys sucking on the government's teat. While Congress keeps arguing about whether we can afford to pay for welfare or food stamps or Medicaid, the banksters now have permission to play with depositors' funds and, if they lose AGAIN, make the taxpayers pay it back.


Thanks! They WILL lose again! But the derivatives crash will make the last crash look like pocket change. They've bet on everything! Even stuff that doesn't exist!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> Don't think I haven't tried. He gets huffy and says "I don't need your help to meet women." (Apparently he doesn't; his problem is in finding THE woman.)
> 
> Of course you think about those teeny weenies all the time. And you have to brag about them. I don't really mind, and if ever I do, I'll just sit here and cry quietly where nobody can hear me. But I don't believe that anything could be more fun than kittens.


Oh! PLEASE don't cry! I'll try very hard not to mention them TOO often. :lol: I think we should all think positive thoughts (I'll say a prayer  ), that your son meets the right woman SOON!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

BrattyPatty said:


> When are those quads due, KFN??


Technically, July. But we'd be happy to get to 30 weeks or so. HAS to be over 23 weeks!


----------



## SQM

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh! PLEASE don't cry! I'll try very hard not to mention them TOO often. :lol: I think we should all think positive thoughts (I'll say a prayer  ), that your son meets the right woman SOON!


I need to unload my daughter: 31, gorgeous, hard working, well educated, mean to her mother.


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Did you break your arm? Was that lately? I hope it has healed well.
> 
> I'd have no problem continuing to vote in that manner if citizenship were shown at registration. But right now, anybody and their brother can go to the DMV and register.


It was 15 years ago, and my elbow to this day is held together by what look like sheet-metal screws and twist ties. I can't straighten it completely, but it works and it doesn't hurt.


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh! PLEASE don't cry! I'll try very hard not to mention them TOO often. :lol: I think we should all think positive thoughts (I'll say a prayer  ), that your son meets the right woman SOON!


Very soon, while I can still walk down the aisle. Thank you; I'm counting on you. :lol:


----------



## NJG

Designer1234 said:


> Hi there! I have been in the hospital for 3 days. Had another 'attack' and am feeling better today. Got out this afternoon. Will be back later.
> 
> I hate the thought of our 'friend'#@%&+++being back!


Continue to feel better Shirley, and take care of yourself.


----------



## BrattyPatty

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Technically, July. But we'd be happy to get to 30 weeks or so. HAS to be over 23 weeks!


I hope everything goes right.


----------



## BrattyPatty

Well, I am signing off for the night. Dealing with knit Crazy and Winding Road has given me a headache. I have to get up early for my little red headed GD will be here at 7:30 AM. I have to store up all of the energy I can!
Tomorrow is cookie baking day for us.
Good night ladies. Hope to see you all sometime tomorrow.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I never said that I wanted people to stand in line for hours. How did you infer that from what I said? I think it's a very rare thing for people to stand in line for hours, to vote. You live in Iowa. That's just as real as where I live. When I vote, there's usually no line at all! And the article being referenced said nothing about people standing in line, to begin with. A red herring!
> 
> I am not for voter suppression! If you don't like the idea of voter ID, suggest an alternative that assures only legal citizens can vote and vote only once.
> 
> Why did you ask, "Is that how you get your jollies?". What have I ever said that would lead to to believe that I get my " jollies" from the suffering of others? We may disagree on some things, but REALLY?!?


In Australia we have to enrol to vote when we turn 18. We fill in an enrolment form and have it witnessed by someone who is already on the electoral roll. The one enrolment form covers all three electoral rolls, Federal, State and Shire. You can apply for enrolment when you turn 17, and this automatically enables you to vote when you turn 18. On election day we just turn up to vote, give the person our name and address, they locate it on the electoral roll and cross it off. We do not have a problem with people voting more than once. If people did vote more than once it would be detected once the rolls are checked after the election and they would be prosecuted. The checking is to ensure that everyone who is on the roll has voted because voting is compulsory in State and Federal elections. Perhaps people in Australia are more honest than in the USA, we just do not have the problems that the USA seem to have with voter fraud. We do have problems with people slipping off the electoral rolls because they move house and do not change their address on the electoral rolls. We do have house to house checks at times to ensure that all eligible voters are enrolled to vote. Perhaps Australia is a more caring country and we endeavour to ensure that everyone who is entitled to vote is given every opportunity to vote. Our poling days are always held on a Saturday and poling stations are everywhere in the metro area. They are published in the newspapers and online. The candidates also have a phone in for people who need a car to pick them up and take them to the poling stations. We also have absentee votes, where you can cast your vote at a poling booth outside your electoral district, postal votes or absentee votes if you cannot get to the poling station on election day and early voting if you will be out of the country on election day or need to vote early for any other reason. As I said, you just front up and have your name crossed off the copy of the electoral roll that the returning officers have in front of them. No need to produce any ID and we do not have any of the problems that the USA seem to have with voter fraud.


----------



## NJG

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I never said that I wanted people to stand in line for hours. How did you infer that from what I said? I think it's a very rare thing for people to stand in line for hours, to vote. You live in Iowa. That's just as real as where I live. When I vote, there's usually no line at all! And the article being referenced said nothing about people standing in line, to begin with. A red herring!
> 
> I am not for voter suppression! If you don't like the idea of voter ID, suggest an alternative that assures only legal citizens can vote and vote only once.
> 
> Why did you ask, "Is that how you get your jollies?". What have I ever said that would lead to to believe that I get my " jollies" from the suffering of others? We may disagree on some things, but REALLY?!?


First of all, if you pay any attention to the news other than fox news, at election time, there are stories on all the time showing the lines. It only makes sense, if they are closing voting places, there will be more people at the places left and no it is not rare in places where there is republican control and they have been closing voting places and providing less and less early voting. 
Yes Iowa is real, we have a republican governor and house, but a democratic controlled senate so they didn't get to do the things in Iowa that they wanted. Branstad tried to get control of the senate by an appointment and a special election, but the democrat won or we would be in that mess too. If you are for less early voting and restrictive voter ID, then you are for voter suppression. Why do you have no empathy for other people and assume you know everything. They can vote if they make the effort. How do you know that about everyone else. You don't, you assume you know it all. Sorry, but you come off as having no compassion or others less fortunate than yourself.

I just had two whole paragraphs typed and took it all out. It is a waste of my time to say anything to you.


----------



## NJG

EveMCooke said:


> In Australia we have to enrol to vote when we turn 18. We fill in an enrolment form and have it witnessed by someone who is already on the electoral roll. The one enrolment form covers all three electoral rolls, Federal, State and Shire. You can apply for enrolment when you turn 17, and this automatically enables you to vote when you turn 18. On election day we just turn up to vote, give the person our name and address, they locate it on the electoral roll and cross it off. We do not have a problem with people voting more than once. If people did vote more than once it would be detected once the rolls are checked after the election and they would be prosecuted. The checking is to ensure that everyone who is on the roll has voted because voting is compulsory in State and Federal elections. Perhaps people in Australia are more honest than in the USA, we just do not have the problems that the USA seem to have with voter fraud. We do have problems with people slipping off the electoral rolls because they move house and do not change their address on the electoral rolls. We do have house to house checks at times to ensure that all eligible voters are enrolled to vote. Perhaps Australia is a more caring country and we endeavour to ensure that everyone who is entitled to vote is given every opportunity to vote. Our poling days are always held on a Saturday and poling stations are everywhere in the metro area. They are published in the newspapers and online. The candidates also have a phone in for people who need a car to pick them up and take them to the poling stations. We also have absentee votes, where you can cast your vote at a poling booth outside your electoral district, postal votes or absentee votes if you cannot get to the poling station on election day and early voting if you will be out of the country on election day or need to vote early for any other reason. As I said, you just front up and have your name crossed off the copy of the electoral roll that the returning officers have in front of them. No need to produce any ID and we do not have any of the problems that the USA seem to have with voter fraud.


We actually don't have a problem with voter fraud either. The republicans want everyone to believe we do so they can pass more restrictive voter laws and voter ID laws in order to limit minorities from voting.


----------



## Wombatnomore

Poor Purl said:


> What a great-looking place. It must be huge to house all those shops of so many different kinds.


It is huge. Such a delight to see while wandering from shop to shop. I always eat lunch there when I'm at the Market. The variety of food is enormous and food from all over the world. It's the go-to place for the foodies (celeb chefs and the like).


----------



## Wombatnomore

MarilynKnits said:


> Oh, wow, some of those places look amazing. Boreks are especially fun to make and nice to take for lunch. Interesting that there is a shop devoted to them. We call them bourekas, the Israeli name.


I've often bought a spinach and cheese Borek for lunch there and they are always delicious. Very reasonably priced too.


----------



## Wombatnomore

Designer1234 said:


> Hi there! I have been in the hospital for 3 days. Had another 'attack' and am feeling better today. Got out this afternoon. Will be back later.
> 
> I hate the thought of our 'friend'#@%&+++being back!


Glad you're back on deck! Stay well Designer!


----------



## NJG

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm not critical of your statement, but please tell me what rider, on what bill, you are referring to. I've been hearing for years that we would have to bail out derivatives but have never heard where it was stated. The last I heard, the bankers had gambled somewhere around $1.2 quadrillion. There isn't even that much money in the world, is there? If what you say is true, every one of us needs to be screaming at our politicians and protesting in the streets. That would be the biggest theft ever! That would be our undoing. We could never recover from that. We would literally be slaves to the debt. Are we gonna stand for this?


A provision of the Dodd-Frank law required banks to create subsidiary companies to do their trading  with their own money. The idea was to create a firewall between the banks' trading and customers' deposits, which are federally insured.

The spending bill that the Senate passed over the weekend eliminates the new rules, and keeps financial trading within the banks and the banks will use our federally insured deposits. So when they screw up again and they will, we bail them out.


----------



## Wombatnomore

SQM said:


> I need to unload my daughter: 31, gorgeous, hard working, well educated, mean to her mother.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## jbandsma

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Obviously, you don't know me! But I will gladly leave you alone. I don't like trying to carry out discussions with close minded people!


Not close minded to point out that you don't even see what you are saying.

It's alright for white people (and dark skinned people from the "proper" part of town) to have 46 days of early voting, convenient polling places and hours, etc. But it's outrageous that Native Americans wanting to exercise their constitutional rights should expect the same treatment...even in the case where the money has been appropriated for the purpose but the (supposedly white) person in charge of doing so REFUSES to do it.

That is what you have been saying.


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> It is not that they are clueless to the plight of the less-privileged. The rich believe that since they 'made-it', so can everyone else. The rich are against handouts to the poor who are capable of working. The rich believe that poor people have been working the system for generations and the rich see their tax-dollars as enabling able-bodied people from having the initiative to work - the poor make more money milking the system. This is what I learned from the Evils over the weekend.


I think it's more that the rich think that if everybody were allowed to 'make it', there wouldn't be enough left for them.


----------



## MarilynKnits

Designer1234 said:


> Hi there! I have been in the hospital for 3 days. Had another 'attack' and am feeling better today. Got out this afternoon. Will be back later.
> 
> I hate the thought of our 'friend'#@%&+++being back!


Hope the reason for the attack was properly diagnosed. Best wishes for your good health.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> And McCain, who didn't know how many homes he owned.


Do you remember the first Bush? Taken to a grocery store at the time he was president, he had no idea of what the cost of anything was. Told the reporter that he expected that a basket of groceries was about $25. Was only mildly surprised when it rung up at almost $200 and didn't include a lot of 'fancy' stuff.


----------



## MarilynKnits

BrattyPatty said:


> When I moved to Minnesota, I had to bring proof of address on a utility bill to register to vote. Just my name with an address. It is pretty much the same at the polls. I just sign my name. I am against ID's to vote. Our ballot has always been 'private.' I would like to keep it that way.


And don't you love the phone calls during campaign time asking who you are voting for? I gently in my "I am speaking to someone really dumb" tone of voice remind them that we have a secret ballot, and they are not a confidante of mine. Sometimes I pull out my uber thesaurus guided vocabulary if I feel really harassed by too many unsolicited phone calls.


----------



## MarilynKnits

Wombatnomore said:


> I've often bought a spinach and cheese Borek for lunch there and they are always delicious. Very reasonably priced too.


I love the Greek style ones with spinach, red onion, and feta cheese.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

SQM said:


> I need to unload my daughter: 31, gorgeous, hard working, well educated, mean to her mother.


See if you can't manage to have her run into Purl's son. We could kill two birds with one stone. :XD:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> It was 15 years ago, and my elbow to this day is held together by what look like sheet-metal screws and twist ties. I can't straighten it completely, but it works and it doesn't hurt.


Ouch! My dil broke her wrist and had to have a plate put in it. It bothers her still.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> Very soon, while I can still walk down the aisle. Thank you; I'm counting on you. :lol:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

BrattyPatty said:


> Well, I am signing off for the night. Dealing with knit Crazy and Winding Road has given me a headache. I have to get up early for my little red headed GD will be here at 7:30 AM. I have to store up all of the energy I can!
> Tomorrow is cookie baking day for us.
> Good night ladies. Hope to see you all sometime tomorrow.


Have fun, Patty! My grandsons are coming one day next week, to decorate cookies. It's so fun and the cookies get LOTS of colored sugar and sprinkles. :lol:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

EveMCooke said:


> In Australia we have to enrol to vote when we turn 18. We fill in an enrolment form and have it witnessed by someone who is already on the electoral roll. The one enrolment form covers all three electoral rolls, Federal, State and Shire. You can apply for enrolment when you turn 17, and this automatically enables you to vote when you turn 18. On election day we just turn up to vote, give the person our name and address, they locate it on the electoral roll and cross it off. We do not have a problem with people voting more than once. If people did vote more than once it would be detected once the rolls are checked after the election and they would be prosecuted. The checking is to ensure that everyone who is on the roll has voted because voting is compulsory in State and Federal elections. Perhaps people in Australia are more honest than in the USA, we just do not have the problems that the USA seem to have with voter fraud. We do have problems with people slipping off the electoral rolls because they move house and do not change their address on the electoral rolls. We do have house to house checks at times to ensure that all eligible voters are enrolled to vote. Perhaps Australia is a more caring country and we endeavour to ensure that everyone who is entitled to vote is given every opportunity to vote. Our poling days are always held on a Saturday and poling stations are everywhere in the metro area. They are published in the newspapers and online. The candidates also have a phone in for people who need a car to pick them up and take them to the poling stations. We also have absentee votes, where you can cast your vote at a poling booth outside your electoral district, postal votes or absentee votes if you cannot get to the poling station on election day and early voting if you will be out of the country on election day or need to vote early for any other reason. As I said, you just front up and have your name crossed off the copy of the electoral roll that the returning officers have in front of them. No need to produce any ID and we do not have any of the problems that the USA seem to have with voter fraud.


At the time of enrollment, do you have to prove who you are?


----------



## MindyT

DGreen said:


> Site run by Alex Jones, who is known for being a conspiracy theorist.
> 
> That is not to say we shouldn't pay close attention, but I think research from other sources is in order here. An example of Jones' views:
> 
> Jones theory is that President Obama and the media are combining forces to stir up so much racial unrest that it will give them a pretext to declare martial law and impose a dictatorship. Joining Jones in this theory have been right-wing pundits such as Austin Miles at Renew America; radio host Rick Wiles; onetime presidential candidate Alan Keyes; and Glenn Beck, who has been pitching a version of the theory for over a year now.
> 
> IMO Alex Jones is certifiable.


----------



## MindyT

DGreen said:


> Site run by Alex Jones, who is known for being a conspiracy theorist.
> 
> That is not to say we shouldn't pay close attention, but I think research from other sources is in order here. An example of Jones' views:
> 
> Jones theory is that President Obama and the media are combining forces to stir up so much racial unrest that it will give them a pretext to declare martial law and impose a dictatorship. Joining Jones in this theory have been right-wing pundits such as Austin Miles at Renew America; radio host Rick Wiles; onetime presidential candidate Alan Keyes; and Glenn Beck, who has been pitching a version of the theory for over a year now.
> 
> IMO Alex Jones is certifiable.


----------



## MindyT

DGreen said:


> Site run by Alex Jones, who is known for being a conspiracy theorist.
> 
> That is not to say we shouldn't pay close attention, but I think research from other sources is in order here. An example of Jones' views:
> 
> Jones theory is that President Obama and the media are combining forces to stir up so much racial unrest that it will give them a pretext to declare martial law and impose a dictatorship. Joining Jones in this theory have been right-wing pundits such as Austin Miles at Renew America; radio host Rick Wiles; onetime presidential candidate Alan Keyes; and Glenn Beck, who has been pitching a version of the theory for over a year now.
> 
> IMO Alex Jones is certifiable.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

NJG said:


> First of all, if you pay any attention to the news other than fox news, at election time, there are stories on all the time showing the lines. It only makes sense, if they are closing voting places, there will be more people at the places left and no it is not rare in places where there is republican control and they have been closing voting places and providing less and less early voting.
> Yes Iowa is real, we have a republican governor and house, but a democratic controlled senate so they didn't get to do the things in Iowa that they wanted. Branstad tried to get control of the senate by an appointment and a special election, but the democrat won or we would be in that mess too. If you are for less early voting and restrictive voter ID, then you are for voter suppression. Why do you have no empathy for other people and assume you know everything. They can vote if they make the effort. How do you know that about everyone else. You don't, you assume you know it all. Sorry, but you come off as having no compassion or others less fortunate than yourself.
> 
> I just had two whole paragraphs typed and took it all out. It is a waste of my time to say anything to you.


I'm sorry that you think it's a waste of time discussing things with people with who you disagree. I've always considered it a valuable effort. I'm also sorry to let you down, I don't watch Fox news. I don't even have cable. I seek multiple sources for my news, not sticking to those with which I am comfortable. I usually watch ABC news and can only remember seeing lines of voters when obama first ran. Maybe ABC just doesn't cover that. Nebraska's legislature is a non partisan Unicameral. Sometimes things turn out as I like, sometimes they don't.

I don't assume that I know everything. I often ask questions of others to further my understanding. But if I believe in something, I'll argue it. Don't you do the same? I am for assuring that only legal citizens can vote. If you can come up with a better idea for insuring that, please put it forth! I'm sorry if you think I come across as having no compassion. You don't know me or follow my words, so that's kind of harsh. But I too, think that it's probably a waste of time saying anything to you. Your mind is made up!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

NJG said:


> A provision of the Dodd-Frank law required banks to create subsidiary companies to do their trading  with their own money. The idea was to create a firewall between the banks' trading and customers' deposits, which are federally insured.
> 
> The spending bill that the Senate passed over the weekend eliminates the new rules, and keeps financial trading within the banks and the banks will use our federally insured deposits. So when they screw up again and they will, we bail them out.


Thank you! I am familiar with dodd frank. I was just not aware of what they stuck into the spending bill. It puts all of us in grave danger. This is something that all of us should come together on.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

MarilynKnits said:


> And don't you love the phone calls during campaign time asking who you are voting for? I gently in my "I am speaking to someone really dumb" tone of voice remind them that we have a secret ballot, and they are not a confidante of mine. Sometimes I pull out my uber thesaurus guided vocabulary if I feel really harassed by too many unsolicited phone calls.


I usually get the recorded calls. It might be fun to use a thesaurus guided vocabulary. :XD:


----------



## Knitted by Nan

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> At the time of enrollment, do you have to prove who you are?


I have sent you details in a PM.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

EveMCooke said:


> I have sent you details in a PM.


Thanks, Eve!


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> Do you remember the first Bush? Taken to a grocery store at the time he was president, he had no idea of what the cost of anything was. Told the reporter that he expected that a basket of groceries was about $25. Was only mildly surprised when it rung up at almost $200 and didn't include a lot of 'fancy' stuff.


That is the way the majority of the wealthy people are. Before congress is allowed to cut benefits for the poor they should have to take a welfare check, find a place to live and buy food for a family of four and live for a month. They think they are all eating lobster and driving big fancy cars. When you hear comments like, "they even have air conditioners and refrigerators," you know they have no clue.


----------



## jbandsma

NJG said:


> That is the way the majority of the wealthy people are. Before congress is allowed to cut benefits for the poor they should have to take a welfare check, find a place to live and buy food for a family of four and live for a month. They think they are all eating lobster and driving big fancy cars. When you hear comments like, "they even have air conditioners and refrigerators," you know they have no clue.


They don't even seem to realize that in order to qualify for food stamps (snap) that you are required to have some method of refrigeration (other than a cooler and ice) and a way of cooking.

And none of them ever consider that some things are given to you as gifts. A phone from your parents, the loan of a car when you really need it...an air conditioner from an agency trying to keep people from dying of the heat (at least here in the south you can get them...we pay an extra dollar a month so that the very poor and elderly don't die of heat or cold). No consideration of the fact that you can dress fairly well from thrift stores.

They expect the poor to look like Dickens stereotypes...dirty and wearing rags. If you don't then you must not be as poor as you say.


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> That is the way the majority of the wealthy people are. Before congress is allowed to cut benefits for the poor they should have to take a welfare check, find a place to live and buy food for a family of four and live for a month. They think they are all eating lobster and driving big fancy cars. When you hear comments like, "they even have air conditioners and refrigerators," you know they have no clue.


But it's more than that. Many not-so-wealthy right wingers have the notion that anything given in the way of public assistance comes directly out of their pockets, the shirt off their backs, a tap on their personal hard-earned dollars.

They have no concept or awareness of macro economics or the realities of life at the bottom. A month on a welfare check would not be sufficient. It's long-term poverty that affects people's health, it's living in predominately minority communities that affect the quality of education and the restriction of opportunities that come from that. It's the grinding down of people who, when the washing machine breaks down, have to use the Laundromat instead of making repairs - costing more in the long run. It's NEVER being able to get ahead, to save. There are so many LONG TERM miseries associated with poverty, with loss of hope, of the feeling of helplessness.


----------



## NJG

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you! I am familiar with dodd frank. I was just not aware of what they stuck into the spending bill. It puts all of us in grave danger. This is something that all of us should come together on.


Well it is a little late now. Elizabeth Warren was the one who really went after them about it and of course it was the government running out of money again and the need to pass something so they could all go home for Christmas vacation. That is when they add all that crappy stuff to the bills. Ever since it went into effect, the banks have been pushing to get rid of it. It was mentioned that CityCorp lobbyists wrote the bill for them, bless their hearts.
They also gave the McCain-Feingold campaign finance an overhaul. A donor who gave the maximum $32,400 this year to the Democratic National Committee or Republican National Committee would be able to donate another $291,600 on top of that to the party, a total of $324,000, ten times the current limit. Congress evidently believes they need more money to campaign with.

In an effort to save some of the nations most distressed pension plans, the benefits of current retirees could be cut. The change would alter 40 years of federal law and could affect millions of workers, many of them part of a shrinking corps of middle-income employees in businesses such as trucking, construction and supermarkets.

If it isn't passed the government shuts down and we know how much that costs from the last time, so it's kind of dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. But they sure do know what to stick in at the last minute so there will be no discussion about it.


----------



## Designer1234

here is the link to the new Workshop happenings.

I hate to postpone my workshop but it is possible (not definite) that I might need surgery - I should know more later but will postpone it for a few weeks. There are some great ones coming up - Dame, a wonderful scarf designed by TLL who is a good lace knitter is coming up later on. check out the newsletter.

I am feeling much much better but want to finally get these darned attacks attended to so our new Doctor is going to send me to a specialist to see what are my options. Right now things are up in the air. If it is going to take awhile I will book the class asap. Shirley

*http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-306478-1.html*


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> They don't even seem to realize that in order to qualify for food stamps (snap) that you are required to have some method of refrigeration (other than a cooler and ice) and a way of cooking.
> 
> And none of them ever consider that some things are given to you as gifts. A phone from your parents, the loan of a car when you really need it...an air conditioner from an agency trying to keep people from dying of the heat (at least here in the south you can get them...we pay an extra dollar a month so that the very poor and elderly don't die of heat or cold). No consideration of the fact that you can dress fairly well from thrift stores.
> 
> They expect the poor to look like Dickens stereotypes...dirty and wearing rags. If you don't then you must not be as poor as you say.


Your last sentence says it all.


----------



## Designer1234

.


----------



## NJG

DGreen said:


> But it's more than that. Many not-so-wealthy right wingers have the notion that anything given in the way of public assistance comes directly out of their pockets, the shirt off their backs, a tap on their personal hard-earned dollars.
> 
> They have no concept or awareness of macro economics or the realities of life at the bottom. A month on a welfare check would not be sufficient. It's long-term poverty that affects people's health, it's living in predominately minority communities that affect the quality of education and the restriction of opportunities that come from that. It's the grinding down of people who, when the washing machine breaks down, have to use the Laundromat instead of making repairs - costing more in the long run. It's NEVER being able to get ahead, to save. There are so many LONG TERM miseries associated with poverty, with loss of hope, of the feeling of helplessness.


Very well said. But why is it that those on the right do not understand that concept at all and the fact that the cycle repeats itself. You learn what you live. Then they come with that old boot strap mentality.


----------



## Designer1234

NJG said:


> I just had two whole paragraphs typed and took it all out. It is a waste of my time to say anything to you.


Designer here: KfN has been posting on this thread for some time. Sometimes she doesn't agree with us, sometimes she does. I find that she is quite courageous to venture onto this thread and speak her mind. I just wish more people would do this without attacking and fighting. She and I have disagreed quite often and so have the others -- but she is honest, and sometimes is misunderstood by us who are all on the same mindset. Sometimes we disagree completely. She, I believe is a thoughtful, and 
speaks her mind.

She does listen and I think she understands where we are coming from. It is so refreshing to have someone come here and talk and listen. I think she should be applauded. I don't agree with many things she says but I do agree with other things. We have a right to our opinions but discussion helps. I think that she is well read and I am glad she posts here. I have learned things from her.

I am in no way arguing with you but it is easy to put people in a box. She doesn't post on D and P but has made friends here - I am not sure you are aware of that. I know that a lot of us feel that she is welcome. She doesn't post on D and P and has stood up to them, which is admirable in my opinion.

It is nice to see you - I admire your beliefs and your strength in defending them.


----------



## SQM

Designer1234 said:


> here is the link to the new Workshop happenings.
> 
> I hate to postpone my workshop but it is possible (not definite) that I might need surgery - I should know more later but will postpone it for a few weeks. There are some great ones coming up - Dame, a wonderful scarf designed by TLL who is a good lace knitter is coming up later on. check out the newsletter.
> 
> I am feeling much much better but want to finally get these darned attacks attended to so our new Doctor is going to send me to a specialist to see what are my options. Right now things are up in the air. If it is going to take awhile I will book the class asap. Shirley
> 
> *http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-306478-1.html*


Feel better soon and I am eagerly awaiting your top-down workshop. Save me a seat!


----------



## Designer1234

SQM said:


> Feel better soon and I am eagerly awaiting your top-down workshop. Save me a seat!


I am just sorry I have to postpone it, but no point committing until I find out what is happening.


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> I think it's more that the rich think that if everybody were allowed to 'make it', there wouldn't be enough left for them.


Besides which, they see themselves as nobility, and would like the servants that go with the title. Americans don't take well to servanthood, but if they seriously need a job, that would do.


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> See if you can't manage to have her run into Purl's son. We could kill two birds with one stone. :XD:


What a great idea! Maybe. If SQM's daughter is mean to her mother, think how she'd be to a mother-in-law.


----------



## jbandsma

Poor Purl said:


> Besides which, they see themselves as nobility, and would like the servants that go with the title. Americans don't take well to servanthood, but if they seriously need a job, that would do.


We're coming close to Roman society...where there was no middle class at all. You were either rich or poor. And if you were poor you had 2 choices...die or sell yourself into slavery.


----------



## Poor Purl

MindyT said:


> DGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Site run by Alex Jones, who is known for being a conspiracy theorist.
> 
> That is not to say we shouldn't pay close attention, but I think research from other sources is in order here. An example of Jones' views:
> 
> Jones theory is that President Obama and the media are combining forces to stir up so much racial unrest that it will give them a pretext to declare martial law and impose a dictatorship. Joining Jones in this theory have been right-wing pundits such as Austin Miles at Renew America; radio host Rick Wiles; onetime presidential candidate Alan Keyes; and Glenn Beck, who has been pitching a version of the theory for over a year now.
> 
> IMO Alex Jones is certifiable.
> 
> 
> 
> What a great message, Mindy. I'm glad you posted it 3 times, because it really sank in.
> 
> Seriously, some of the Denims believe that, too.
Click to expand...


----------



## jbandsma

The crap is starting a little earlier, don't you think?

Missouri Republican Rep. Rick Brattin has pre-filed legislation requiring a mans permission before women could seek an abortion.

The bill has an exception for victims of rape, but according to Brattin, *it has to be a legitimate rape - and you have to prove it.*


----------



## MindyT

Poor Purl said:


> What a great message, Mindy. I'm glad you posted it 3 times, because it really sank in.
> 
> Seriously, some of the Denims believe that, too.


Sorry about the three time posting. It's all magic to me how things like that happen. My old boss used to call his computer The Voodoo Box!


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> The crap is starting a little earlier, don't you think?
> 
> Missouri Republican Rep. Rick Brattin has pre-filed legislation requiring a mans permission before women could seek an abortion.
> 
> The bill has an exception for victims of rape, but according to Brattin, *it has to be a legitimate rape - and you have to prove it.*


Yep, they do want to go back and live in the dark ages, and to think that women probably voted for him. So sad.


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> We're coming close to Roman society...where there was no middle class at all. You were either rich or poor. And if you were poor you had 2 choices...die or sell yourself into slavery.


That's depressing. Thank you


----------



## peacegoddess

jbandsma said:


> The crap is starting a little earlier, don't you think?
> 
> Missouri Republican Rep. Rick Brattin has pre-filed legislation requiring a mans permission before women could seek an abortion.
> 
> The bill has an exception for victims of rape, but according to Brattin, *it has to be a legitimate rape - and you have to prove it.*


I always wonder about a person who uses the term "legitimate rape". What exactly constitutes legitimate rape?


----------



## peacegoddess

jbandsma said:


> The crap is starting a little earlier, don't you think?
> 
> Missouri Republican Rep. Rick Brattin has pre-filed legislation requiring a mans permission before women could seek an abortion.
> 
> The bill has an exception for victims of rape, but according to Brattin, *it has to be a legitimate rape - and you have to prove it.*


I always wonder about a person who uses the term "legitimate rape". What exactly constitutes legitimate rape?


----------



## peacegoddess

Sorry about double post.... But then maybe the question needs to be asked more than once.


----------



## jbandsma

peacegoddess said:


> I always wonder about a person who uses the term "legitimate rape". What exactly constitutes legitimate rape?


The only things I've ever heard them consider "legitimate" rape have been when the victim is under 10 years old and has never had a period. (Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed) Or when the victim dies during the rape. Then, of course, there's no worry about abortion but the victim's name will still be dragged through the mud during the trial.

But those are the only things they consider "legitimate rape".


----------



## jbandsma

Your question needs to be asked LOUDLY every time it comes up.

Every time...and some times maybe even when it doesn't. Like right before they try to get re-elected.


----------



## MarilynKnits

jbandsma said:


> The crap is starting a little earlier, don't you think?
> 
> Missouri Republican Rep. Rick Brattin has pre-filed legislation requiring a mans permission before women could seek an abortion.
> 
> The bill has an exception for victims of rape, but according to Brattin, *it has to be a legitimate rape - and you have to prove it.*


That is a 19th century view of life. Perhaps mandating vasectomies for proven rapists would be a better idea. Of course it would have to be a legitimate vasectomy. Performed by a female urologist.


----------



## SQM

Poor Purl said:


> What a great idea! Maybe. If SQM's daughter is mean to her mother, think how she'd be to a mother-in-law.


Ha Ha. It depends how much the MIL would remind her of me.

Good discussion on Cosby/Sandusky even tho I think I was being insulted after just on benign comment.

If Cookie Queen does not show her big nose tonight, I may have to call a hunt. Has anyone seen her lately?


----------



## Wombatnomore

MarilynKnits said:


> That is a 19th century view of life. Perhaps mandating vasectomies for proven rapists would be a better idea. Of course it would have to be a legitimate vasectomy. Performed by a female urologist.


No, legitimate castration should be mandated. No words are needed to legitimise that.


----------



## jbandsma

Wombatnomore said:


> No, legitimate castration should be mandated. No words are needed to legitimise that.


Sounds good...except that castration doesn't take away the urge, only the ability. Leading to even worse violence due to frustration. It's going to be a no win situation for women until we start teaching boys not to rape instead of only teaching girls how to reduce their likelihood of being raped.


----------



## Camacho

Minor Wrinkle to NYC trip. DH brought up our travel plans with our son's CBFS person, and was asked if we can go to NYC on Thursday, January 15, and return home on Friday, January 16, as CBFS only works Monday through Thursday. DH says that buses go to NYC all the time, roughly every hour or so, so we can travel at any time on those days. So can we can we? Or May we may we? We can arrive in NYC by early afternoon on Thursday, and will want to leave NYC some time on Friday afternoon. That gives us a solid 24 hours there. Can we still do this? I have been really looking forward to it.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Designer1234 said:


> Designer here: KfN has been posting on this thread for some time. Sometimes she doesn't agree with us, sometimes she does. I find that she is quite courageous to venture onto this thread and speak her mind. I just wish more people would do this without attacking and fighting. She and I have disagreed quite often and so have the others -- but she is honest, and sometimes is misunderstood by us who are all on the same mindset. Sometimes we disagree completely. She, I believe is a thoughtful, and
> speaks her mind.
> 
> She does listen and I think she understands where we are coming from. It is so refreshing to have someone come here and talk and listen. I think she should be applauded. I don't agree with many things she says but I do agree with other things. We have a right to our opinions but discussion helps. I think that she is well read and I am glad she posts here. I have learned things from her.
> 
> I am in no way arguing with you but it is easy to put people in a box. She doesn't post on D and P but has made friends here - I am not sure you are aware of that. I know that a lot of us feel that she is welcome. She doesn't post on D and P and has stood up to them, which is admirable in my opinion.
> 
> It is nice to see you - I admire your beliefs and your strength in defending them.


Thank you, Shirley! I attribute it to mutual respect.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Designer1234 said:


> I am just sorry I have to postpone it, but no point committing until I find out what is happening.


I hope they find out soon and correct whatever is causing it. I hate for you to feel poorly.


----------



## Designer1234

SQM said:


> Ha Ha. It depends how much the MIL would remind her of me.
> 
> Good discussion on Cosby/Sandusky even tho I think I was being insulted after just on benign comment.
> 
> If Cookie Queen does not show her big nose tonight, I may have to call a hunt. Has anyone seen her lately?


I hope she is okay. Has anyone pm'd her?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> What a great idea! Maybe. If SQM's daughter is mean to her mother, think how she'd be to a mother-in-law.


ROFLMAO!!! We'll work something out. You DO want grandchildren, don't you?


----------



## Designer1234

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you, Shirley! I attribute it to mutual respect.


I said that we are all the same mindset except for Neb. That is not correct. We have our differences of opinion sometimes but we respect and like each other. Neb is included in those I count as a friend (She will likely pay for that by those who think on the right that she should not be here and especially be a friend of mine) but it is the truth.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

jbandsma said:


> We're coming close to Roman society...where there was no middle class at all. You were either rich or poor. And if you were poor you had 2 choices...die or sell yourself into slavery.


It seems to me that we've already sold ourselves into slavery. How many people are forced to work at jobs they hate, just to eat and have a place to live. OK, so we're not beaten, but other than that?


----------



## jbandsma

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It seems to me that we've already sold ourselves into slavery. How many people are forced to work at jobs they hate, just to eat and have a place to live. OK, so we're not beaten, but other than that?


Ever done agricultural work? Picking crops? You get that, too.


----------



## Designer1234

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I hope they find out soon and correct whatever is causing it. I hate for you to feel poorly.


I posted a question for information from those who have diverticulosis too on Chit chat. It is very informative and I will be talking to my new Physician tomorrow. Thanks for the good wishes. I appreciate the support here.


----------



## Designer1234

Wombatnomore said:


> No, legitimate castration should be mandated. No words are needed to legitimise that.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Designer1234 said:


> I said that we are all the same mindset except for Neb. That is not correct. We have our differences of opinion sometimes but we respect and like each other. Neb is included in those I count as a friend (She will likely pay for that by those who think on the right that she should not be here and especially be a friend of mine) but it is the truth.


If there's a price to be paid, it wouldn't be anything I wanted in the first place. I have to be free to speak my mind. Sometimes I agree with the right, sometimes, the left. I also have to be free to choose my own friends, which include you, Shirley! I am not one to toe the line.


----------



## Camacho

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> If there's a price to be paid, it wouldn't be anything I wanted in the first place. I have to be free to speak my mind. Sometimes I agree with the right, sometimes, the left. I also have to be free to choose my own friends, which include you, Shirley! I am not one to toe the line.


I love free-spirited open-minded people. Some of my best friends in church have been politically so far to the right and I so far to the left that we have quipped that on some issues, we meet in the middle on the opposite side from everyone else. But even where we disagreed we could talk with each other as friends.
If I were adept with the emoticons, I would have put a thumbs up on Shirley's post.

:thumbup: :thumbup: See? I tried to put this in the body of the post and it ended up down at the bottom. But the thought is still there for KFN's being here and for Shirley's post about her presence here.


----------



## MarilynKnits

Designer1234 said:


> I said that we are all the same mindset except for Neb. That is not correct. We have our differences of opinion sometimes but we respect and like each other. Neb is included in those I count as a friend (She will likely pay for that by those who think on the right that she should not be here and especially be a friend of mine) but it is the truth.


I also like and respect KFN. She is a strong and intelligent woman who expresses her opinions, has the courage of her convictions, and recognizes that not everyone thinks the way she does.

If I were friends with only the people who agree with me all the time 1) I would have far fewer friends than I do and 2) life would be monochromatic and boring.

Having lively discussions makes one think and helps one be sure to validate those thoughts as having substance. Without challenges you cannot grow as a person. I appreciate having to think through how I present my opinions so as to make them clear and credible even if they are not accepted.

I am annoyed by the people who come out like attack dogs. I see them as shallow and narrow minded. If their views have substance, they undermine their stances by their vicious attacks on all and sundry who do not parrot their views. If they were not so nasty I would feel sorry for them, closing themselves into a narrow little room of limited opinions. I am reminded of the Twilight Zone episode "Number 12 Looks Just Like You".


----------



## SQM

Camacho said:


> Minor Wrinkle to NYC trip. DH brought up our travel plans with our son's CBFS person, and was asked if we can go to NYC on Thursday, January 15, and return home on Friday, January 16, as CBFS only works Monday through Thursday. DH says that buses go to NYC all the time, roughly every hour or so, so we can travel at any time on those days. So can we can we? Or May we may we? We can arrive in NYC by early afternoon on Thursday, and will want to leave NYC some time on Friday afternoon. That gives us a solid 24 hours there. Can we still do this? I have been really looking forward to it.


But of course.


----------



## Designer1234

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> If there's a price to be paid, it wouldn't be anything I wanted in the first place. I have to be free to speak my mind. Sometimes I agree with the right, sometimes, the left. I also have to be free to choose my own friends, which include you, Shirley! I am not one to toe the line.


I never learned that either. A lot of us never learned to toe the line. Liberal to me means thinking about things and coming to my on conclusions - It works for me and obviously works for most of us here - you can tell by our posts.


----------



## NJG

peacegoddess said:


> I always wonder about a person who uses the term "legitimate rape". What exactly constitutes legitimate rape?


I don't think they really know. That is just their way of telling us that they don't believe a woman when she says she was raped. Phyllis Schafley, a has been from years ago was just commenting that it is dangerous for boys to go to college because of all those girls yelling rape. She said women should focus on getting married and believes married women can't be raped.
Maybe you have to be beat and near dead before it is legitimate.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Camacho said:


> I love free-spirited open-minded people. Some of my best friends in church have been politically so far to the right and I so far to the left that we have quipped that on some issues, we meet in the middle on the opposite side from everyone else. But even where we disagreed we could talk with each other as friends.
> If I were adept with the emoticons, I would have put a thumbs up on Shirley's post.
> 
> :thumbup: :thumbup: See? I tried to put this in the body of the post and it ended up down at the bottom. But the thought is still there for KFN's being here and for Shirley's post about her presence here.


Thank you, Camacho! It means a lot to me.


----------



## NJG

MarilynKnits said:


> That is a 19th century view of life. Perhaps mandating vasectomies for proven rapists would be a better idea. Of course it would have to be a legitimate vasectomy. Performed by a female urologist.


Hey, I'm not a urologist, but I bet I could perform that surgery.


----------



## SQM

NJG said:


> Hey, I'm not a urologist, but I bet I could perform that surgery.


View it as just another craft.


----------



## BrattyPatty

jbandsma said:


> The crap is starting a little earlier, don't you think?
> 
> Missouri Republican Rep. Rick Brattin has pre-filed legislation requiring a mans permission before women could seek an abortion.
> 
> The bill has an exception for victims of rape, but according to Brattin, *it has to be a legitimate rape - and you have to prove it.*


I read about that. He thinks a woman needs to report it to the police. I wonder how many women don't report it because the rapists threaten to come back at them if they do.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

MarilynKnits said:


> I also like and respect KFN. She is a strong and intelligent woman who expresses her opinions, has the courage of her convictions, and recognizes that not everyone thinks the way she does.
> 
> If I were friends with only the people who agree with me all the time 1) I would have far fewer friends than I do and 2) life would be monochromatic and boring.
> 
> Having lively discussions makes one think and helps one be sure to validate those thoughts as having substance. Without challenges you cannot grow as a person. I appreciate having to think through how I present my opinions so as to make them clear and credible even if they are not accepted.
> 
> I am annoyed by the people who come out like attack dogs. I see them as shallow and narrow minded. If their views have substance, they undermine their stances by their vicious attacks on all and sundry who do not parrot their views. If they were not so nasty I would feel sorry for them, closing themselves into a narrow little room of limited opinions. I am reminded of the Twilight Zone episode "Number 12 Looks Just Like You".


Thank you so much, Marilyn! Now I'm getting downright embarrassed. Time to change the subject.

But first, I'd like to say that I feel as you do. I count myself lucky that I've made so many friends here. Yesterday, I was thinking about going away. Today, you've all made me feel welcome. Thank you!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Designer1234 said:


> I never learned that either. A lot of us never learned to toe the line. Liberal to me means thinking about things and coming to my on conclusions - It works for me and obviously works for most of us here - you can tell by our posts.


 :thumbup:


----------



## NJG

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It seems to me that we've already sold ourselves into slavery. How many people are forced to work at jobs they hate, just to eat and have a place to live. OK, so we're not beaten, but other than that?


Another thing in the spending bill was a 300 million dollar cut to pell grants. They really don't care if the middle class has any options or not.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

NJG said:


> I don't think they really know. That is just their way of telling us that they don't believe a woman when she says she was raped. Phyllis Schafley, a has been from years ago was just commenting that it is dangerous for boys to go to college because of all those girls yelling rape. She said women should focus on getting married and believes married women can't be raped.
> Maybe you have to be beat and near dead before it is legitimate.


It's hard to believe that such ignorance exists today!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

NJG said:


> Hey, I'm not a urologist, but I bet I could perform that surgery.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## BrattyPatty

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you so much, Marilyn! Now I'm getting downright embarrassed. Time to change the subject.
> 
> But first, I'd like to say that I feel as you do. I count myself lucky that I've made so many friends here. Yesterday, I was thinking about going away. Today, you've all made me feel welcome. Thank you!


Don't you dare think of going away!! We may not agree on every topic, but you are a wonderful person to have here.


----------



## BrattyPatty

NJG said:


> Another thing in the spending bill was a 300 million dollar cut to pell grants. They really don't care if the middle class has any options or not.


I am pretty miffed about that spending bill that got slipped in and voted in.
Because of that bill, many people will lose their pensions.
Check out the Ed Show on MSNBC.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

NJG said:


> Another thing in the spending bill was a 300 million dollar cut to pell grants. They really don't care if the middle class has any options or not.


I'm not surprised at all. Just look at public education in this country! They don't want educated people. They want obedient worker bees. Bad times are coming! And the people will be too ignorant to do anything about it.


----------



## NJG

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It's hard to believe that such ignorance exists today!


And after all the crap Todd Akin took and lost his re-election, another one from Missouri says the same thing. Definitely not smart.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

BrattyPatty said:


> Don't you dare think of going away!! We may not agree on every topic, but you are a wonderful person to have here.


You guys are gonna make me cry! Thank you, Patty!


----------



## NJG

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm not surprised at all. Just look at public education in this country! They don't want educated people. They want obedient worker bees. Bad times are coming! And the people will be too ignorant to do anything about it.


You can be educated if you can afford it, otherwise you are out of luck. The common sense in this country seems to be disappearing. What makes people think that cutting education and pell grants and having less educated people is the direction to go.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

BrattyPatty said:


> I am pretty miffed about that spending bill that got slipped in and voted in.
> Because of that bill, many people will lose their pensions.
> Check out the Ed Show on MSNBC.


Both dems and reps voted for this bill! Tell me I'm not right about the false paradigm. They don't work for us! I think I'm gonna have to become a libertarian! Better do some research, I guess!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

NJG said:


> And after all the crap Todd Akin took and lost his re-election, another one from Missouri says the same thing. Definitely not smart.


You can't fix stupid!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

NJG said:


> You can be educated if you can afford it, otherwise you are out of luck. The common sense in this country seems to be disappearing. What makes people think that cutting education and pell grants and having less educated people is the direction to go.


IMO, we could eliminate Pell grants if we'd fix what's wrong with state universities. It's absolutely ridiculous what they charge for college these days. This on top of taxpayer funding! Back in the 70s, you could attend a state university for a few hundred per semester. Now, it's thousands! It used to be that a person could work their way through college. No more!


----------



## NJG

Jeb Bush has been in favor of the embargo against Cuba, and
for the last 6 years he has been a paid adviser for Barclay's, the British bank headquartered in London. In 2010 they were fined by US authorities for violations of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (IEEPA) and the Trading with the Enemy Act (TWEA), for trading with Cuba and Iran among others. 

But Jeb must have not had a problem with that, because he continued to be their paid adviser, till now that is, because he wants to run for president.I bet it was hard to give up that million dollar a year salary, but he is now stepping down and has the balls to criticize President Obama for the steps he is taking with Cuba. Hypocrite is my word for him.


----------



## peacegoddess

NJG said:


> I don't think they really know. That is just their way of telling us that they don't believe a woman when she says she was raped. Phyllis Schafley, a has been from years ago was just commenting that it is dangerous for boys to go to college because of all those girls yelling rape. She said women should focus on getting married and believes married women can't be raped.
> Maybe you have to be beat and near dead before it is legitimate.


Women like Phyllis Schafley are so self loathing that they cannot have any sympathy for victimized women. There are still too many like her around.


----------



## BrattyPatty

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Both dems and reps voted for this bill! Tell me I'm not right about the false paradigm. They don't work for us! I think I'm gonna have to become a libertarian! Better do some research, I guess!


You are correct. Dems voted it for it too. That is why I am miffed about it. 
Oh please don't become a libertarian! They are worse than the extrem right wing!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

BrattyPatty said:


> You are correct. Dems voted it for it too. That is why I am miffed about it.
> Oh please don't become a libertarian! They are worse than the extrem right wing!


How could they possibly be worse?!? At least they're not establishment. They're not owned (yet).


----------



## NJG

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Both dems and reps voted for this bill! Tell me I'm not right about the false paradigm. They don't work for us! I think I'm gonna have to become a libertarian! Better do some research, I guess!


This tells how the senators voted. Both Iowa senators voted no, although probably for different reasons, I am glad it was no.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2014/12/14/how-senators-voted-spending-bill/UhvLxcPZSa20IbOaT2vdPN/story.html


----------



## Designer1234

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You guys are gonna make me cry! Thank you, Patty!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Designer1234

SQM said:


> View it as just another craft.


fuuuuuny! you really made me laugh. I haven't tried that one!!!!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Designer1234 said:


> fuuuuuny! you really made me laugh. I haven't tried that one!!!!


Hey! We finally found a craft that Shirley hasn't tried! :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## SQM

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Hey! We finally found a craft that Shirley hasn't tried! :XD: :XD: :XD:


But sadly we cannot volunteer to help her practice.


----------



## MindyT

A question for me is how is it possible that they could...at the last moment....tag on the money necessary to fund the government, to an Omnibus or Ominous bill like this. So really, they were dammed if they did vote for it and dammed if they didn't. Otherwise they would have shut down the government again. No one wanted that for sure. There is so much bad about this. I didn't know about the Pell grants..shameful. And Pensions...good Lord, that has been like a covenant between corporations and workers for 40 years. And now they can cut pensions? I just shake my head. The truth of pensions is while everyone was making tons of do-re-mi during Clinton's time, pensions kept being upped and upped and no one cared because there was money. So now, it's the workers' fault because they are collecting on a promise. Whoever said it is correct, it's a war on the middle class, women and people of color. And somehow the electorate of this country "showed them they didn't like the policies" by sending more right wingers to Congress. Yep, boy that really showed them. It's too early in California this morning to start drinking, but I sure thought about it. Ha ha


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

SQM said:


> But sadly we cannot volunteer to help her practice.


Why not?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

MindyT said:


> A question for me is how is it possible that they could...at the last moment....tag on the money necessary to fund the government, to an Omnibus or Ominous bill like this. So really, they were dammed if they did vote for it and dammed if they didn't. Otherwise they would have shut down the government again. No one wanted that for sure. There is so much bad about this. I didn't know about the Pell grants..shameful. And Pensions...good Lord, that has been like a covenant between corporations and workers for 40 years. And now they can cut pensions? I just shake my head. The truth of pensions is while everyone was making tons of do-re-mi during Clinton's time, pensions kept being upped and upped and no one cared because there was money. So now, it's the workers' fault because they are collecting on a promise. Whoever said it is correct, it's a war on the middle class, women and people of color. And somehow the electorate of this country "showed them they didn't like the policies" by sending more right wingers to Congress. Yep, boy that really showed them. It's too early in California this morning to start drinking, but I sure thought about it. Ha ha


It's the whole false paradigm. The corporations are running the show and individuals on both sides of aisle justify supporting them by saying, we had to pass the bill, we don't want the government to shut down. When we call upon our representatives to answer for their actions, they have a built in excuse. Both sides dance to the tune of the 1%. They just take turns being the bad guys. The money is always funneled to the top by way of earmarks.

It's a war on all of us! They won't stop until they own everything and we are their slaves.


----------



## DGreen

MindyT said:


> A question for me is how is it possible that they could...at the last moment....tag on the money necessary to fund the government, to an Omnibus or Ominous bill like this. So really, they were dammed if they did vote for it and dammed if they didn't. Otherwise they would have shut down the government again. No one wanted that for sure. There is so much bad about this. I didn't know about the Pell grants..shameful. And Pensions...good Lord, that has been like a covenant between corporations and workers for 40 years. And now they can cut pensions? I just shake my head. The truth of pensions is while everyone was making tons of do-re-mi during Clinton's time, pensions kept being upped and upped and no one cared because there was money. So now, it's the workers' fault because they are collecting on a promise. Whoever said it is correct, it's a war on the middle class, women and people of color. And somehow the electorate of this country "showed them they didn't like the policies" by sending more right wingers to Congress. Yep, boy that really showed them. It's too early in California this morning to start drinking, but I sure thought about it. Ha ha


It's 5 o'clock someplace.


----------



## Designer1234

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you so much, Marilyn! Now I'm getting downright embarrassed. Time to change the subject.
> 
> But first, I'd like to say that I feel as you do. I count myself lucky that I've made so many friends here. Yesterday, I was thinking about going away. Today, you've all made me feel welcome. Thank you!


That doesn't mean we won't try to get you to become a Liberal! After all, we are always right!!!  :lol:


----------



## Designer1234

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Why not?


anyone volunteering? especially the one mentioned below

""View it as just another craft"".


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Designer1234 said:


> That doesn't mean we won't try to get you to become a Liberal! After all, we are always right!!!  :lol:


 :shock: :shock: :shock: 
You're a bad influence on me! :XD:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Designer1234 said:


> anyone volunteering? especially the one mentioned below
> 
> ""View it as just another craft"".


I think they volunteered YOU! :lol:


----------



## MaidInBedlam

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It seems to me that we've already sold ourselves into slavery. How many people are forced to work at jobs they hate, just to eat and have a place to live. OK, so we're not beaten, but other than that?


Sometimes I think it's worse to be a wage slave, especially with the incredible focus on materialism. Gotta have ten new pairs of shoes four times a year. Gotta have an Xbox, gotta have a new car every other year, gotta, gotta, gotta. A lot of people really do sit in front of their TVs and believe they have to get the stuff they see. Then you add in the ease of getting credit cards, paying minimum payments, never getting out of the endless cycle of all that. Getting whipped might be easier.


----------



## Poor Purl

Camacho said:


> Minor Wrinkle to NYC trip. DH brought up our travel plans with our son's CBFS person, and was asked if we can go to NYC on Thursday, January 15, and return home on Friday, January 16, as CBFS only works Monday through Thursday. DH says that buses go to NYC all the time, roughly every hour or so, so we can travel at any time on those days. So can we can we? Or May we may we? We can arrive in NYC by early afternoon on Thursday, and will want to leave NYC some time on Friday afternoon. That gives us a solid 24 hours there. Can we still do this? I have been really looking forward to it.


YESYESYES. Thursday would be great, and Friday. Now we have to really start planning, and finding some friends. Is there anyone else in the NY, New Jersey, Connecticut area you'd like to meet?


----------



## MaidInBedlam

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> :shock: :shock: :shock:
> You're a bad influence on me! :XD:


We're all working very hard to be bad influences on you. The longer you stay, the more often I read what you post, slowly, for comprehension. Thanks.:thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> ROFLMAO!!! We'll work something out. You DO want grandchildren, don't you?


I'm thinking. I'm thinking.*

* Jack Benny, when threatened "Your money or your life."


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

MaidInBedlam said:


> Sometimes I think it's worse to be a wage slave, especially with the incredible focus on materialism. Gotta have ten new pairs of shoes four times a year. Gotta have an Xbox, gotta have a new car every other year, gotta, gotta, gotta. A lot of people really do sit in front of their TVs and believe they have to get the stuff they see. Then you add in the ease of getting credit cards, paying minimum payments, never getting out of the endless cycle of all that. Getting whipped might be easier.


Boy! I have some catching up to do! I buy one pair of shoes for winter and sandals for summer. My minivan is 17 years old! Its on its last leg. It was a company car we were able to buy from my husband's employer for half it's value. Now we're going to break down and buy another 2 year old company minivan for half it's value. At least the air conditioner will work. :wink:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> YESYESYES. Thursday would be great, and Friday. Now we have to really start planning, and finding some friends. Is there anyone else in the NY, New Jersey, Connecticut area you'd like to meet?


You guys are gonna have so much fun! I envy you that!.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

MaidInBedlam said:


> We're all working very hard to be bad influences on you. The longer you stay, the more often I read what you post, slowly, for comprehension. Thanks.:thumbup:


Thanks to you, as well! Maybe I'll have an influence on you! :XD:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> I'm thinking. I'm thinking.*
> 
> * Jack Benny, when threatened "Your money or your life."


You have me ROFLMAO again!!! :lol:


----------



## NJG

The auto bailout is officially over. According to Lew, the total profit for American taxpayers on TARP investments stands at $15.35 billion. Thursday was the sale of the governments last 54.9 million shares. My biggest wish is that those on Wall St that caused all of this would now be in prison.

Just a refresher, this is what some of those on the right had to say about it at the time.

Rep. John Boehner (R-OH): Does anyone really believe that politicians and bureaucrats in Washington can successfully steer a multi-national corporation to economic viability? [6/1/09]

Sen. Richard Shelby (R-AL): Its basically going to be a government-owned, government-run company. Its the road toward socialism. [5/29/09]

RNC Chairman Michael Steele: No matter how much the President spins GMs bankruptcy as good for the economy, it is nothing more than another government grab of a private company and another handout to the union cronies who helped bankroll his presidential campaign. [6/1/2009]

Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC): Now the government has forced taxpayers to buy these failing companies without any plausible plan for profitability. Does anyone think the same government that plans to double the national debt in five years will turn GM around in the same time? [6/2/09]

Rep. Tom Price (R-GA): Unfortunately, this is just another sad chapter in President Obamas eager campaign to interject his administration in the private sectors business dealings. [6/2/09]

Rep. Lamar Smith (R-TX): The auto company rescues have been the leading edge of the Obama administrations war on capitalism. [7/22/09]

Rep. Trent Franks (R-AZ): When government gets involved in a company, the disaster that follows is predictable. [7/22/09]

A guy by the name of Mitt Romney said we could kiss the American automotive industry goodbye if the administrations policy was implemented.


----------



## BrattyPatty

DGreen said:


> It's 5 o'clock someplace.


Yes it is! Over on the Warning thread. :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## NJG

Remember not long ago when the right was loving on Vladimir Putin. He was a real leader. He made a decision in the morning and did it that afternoon. He was playing chess while Obama was playing checkers. Well the Russian economy is tanking. He had to cancel making his big pipeline and the stores are empty. Apple stopped selling online in Russia because they have no idea what to charge, it is changing so fast.
Wonder what the right will be saying now.


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> The auto bailout is officially over. According to Lew, the total profit for American taxpayers on TARP investments stands at $15.35 billion. Thursday was the sale of the governments last 54.9 million shares. My biggest wish is that those on Wall St that caused all of this would now be in prison.
> 
> Just a refresher, this is what some of those on the right had to say about it at the time.
> 
> Rep. John Boehner (R-OH): Does anyone really believe that politicians and bureaucrats in Washington can successfully steer a multi-national corporation to economic viability? [6/1/09]
> 
> Sen. Richard Shelby (R-AL): Its basically going to be a government-owned, government-run company. Its the road toward socialism. [5/29/09]
> 
> RNC Chairman Michael Steele: No matter how much the President spins GMs bankruptcy as good for the economy, it is nothing more than another government grab of a private company and another handout to the union cronies who helped bankroll his presidential campaign. [6/1/2009]
> 
> Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC): Now the government has forced taxpayers to buy these failing companies without any plausible plan for profitability. Does anyone think the same government that plans to double the national debt in five years will turn GM around in the same time? [6/2/09]
> 
> Rep. Tom Price (R-GA): Unfortunately, this is just another sad chapter in President Obamas eager campaign to interject his administration in the private sectors business dealings. [6/2/09]
> 
> Rep. Lamar Smith (R-TX): The auto company rescues have been the leading edge of the Obama administrations war on capitalism. [7/22/09]
> 
> Rep. Trent Franks (R-AZ): When government gets involved in a company, the disaster that follows is predictable. [7/22/09]
> 
> A guy by the name of Mitt Romney said we could kiss the American automotive industry goodbye if the administrations policy was implemented.


Thanks for the research on that. Gloom and doom from the right wing. Action and results from the left.


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> Remember not long ago when the right was loving on Vladimir Putin. He was a real leader. He made a decision in the morning and did it that afternoon. He was playing chess while Obama was playing checkers. Well the Russian economy is tanking. He had to cancel making his big pipeline and the stores are empty. Apple stopped selling online in Russia because they have no idea what to charge, it is changing so fast.
> Wonder what the right will be saying now.


1. Obama's fault
2. Benghazi


----------



## NJG

Just read this about witness #40 on the grand jury in Ferguson. McCullough really knows how to pick them, doesn't he. This just shows how unfair the grand jury was. Hope they are able to do something about it.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/18/1352704/-4-things-that-should-happen-now-that-we-know-the-truth-about-witness-40-a-white-supremacist?detail=email


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> Just read this about witness #40 on the grand jury in Ferguson. McCullough really knows how to pick them, doesn't he. This just shows how unfair the grand jury was. Hope they are able to do something about it.
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/18/1352704/-4-things-that-should-happen-now-that-we-know-the-truth-about-witness-40-a-white-supremacist?detail=email


I read the whole thing yesterday. Sickening.


----------



## jbandsma

NJG said:


> Another thing in the spending bill was a 300 million dollar cut to pell grants. They really don't care if the middle class has any options or not.


But, but...all they have to do is get an education and their employment worries are over.


----------



## jbandsma

BrattyPatty said:


> I read about that. He thinks a woman needs to report it to the police. I wonder how many women don't report it because the rapists threaten to come back at them if they do.


And in 31 states, a woman who does complete a pregnancy from rape then has to worry about her rapist blocking any plans for adoption (even from a jail cell), suing for visitation and/or custody of the child. However, even in those states, if SHE sues for child support it will be considered an admission that it wasn't really rape.


----------



## NJG

There is another natural gas leak at a fracking well in Ohio. 25 homes have had to evacuate for the last 3 days.

Wonder if any other governors will ban it in their state, like Cuomo did in New York. Probably not, too many republican governors. Kind of funny when he said I am not a scientist, but what he did in that case is listen to the people who are scientist. Unlike the republicans when talking about climate change say I am not a scientist but then refuse to listen to those that are. They just ignore it and hope it will go away. Well, I'm not a scientist either, but common sense tells me that with all the pollution put into the atmosphere from factories and vehicles etc, it only makes sense that it is doing harm.

This reminds me that there was also something added to the spending bill that will allow a foreign mining company to mine for copper on what the Indians say is sacred land.

http://tucson.com/news/apache-tribe-distressed-by-privatization-of-sacred-land/article_c8f9f32c-80c0-11e4-a781-a7334409bcc3.html


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> It's 5 o'clock someplace.


Or 4:20.


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> And in 31 states, a woman who does complete a pregnancy from rape then has to worry about her rapist blocking any plans for adoption (even from a jail cell), suing for visitation and/or custody of the child. However, even in those states, if SHE sues for child support it will be considered an admission that it wasn't really rape.


Can you imagine, being raped, deciding to keep the child, and then havinng the rapist get visitation? OMG


----------



## jbandsma

NJG said:


> Can you imagine, being raped, deciding to keep the child, and then havinng the rapist get visitation? OMG


In those 31 states, the rapist can also stop an abortion or plans to release the child for adoption.

Yeah, it's a mess. And it's no picnic for the child of rape kept by her mother. I know. Mom loved me but her first husband tried to kill me twice because I was 'proof' he wasn't first (even though he knew that before he married her). Her second husband just couldn't bear to have me around so I was left to be raised by my grandparents. In a very small town where everybody is related by blood or marriage (and sometimes both) and knew everything. I was the kid that other kids were not to associate with. I got invited to one birthday party my whole life...and the teacher (new in town) who invited me almost got fired for doing so. For exposing all those kids to me.

Sorry. I want to smack people when they say a child of rape is a "gift from god". My mother would have been better off, her life would have been better, if she'd have been able to have an abortion. I wouldn't know the difference.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> In those 31 states, the rapist can also stop an abortion or plans to release the child for adoption.
> 
> Yeah, it's a mess. And it's no picnic for the child of rape kept by her mother. I know. Mom loved me but her first husband tried to kill me twice because I was 'proof' he wasn't first (even though he knew that before he married her). Her second husband just couldn't bear to have me around so I was left to be raised by my grandparents. In a very small town where everybody is related by blood or marriage (and sometimes both) and knew everything. I was the kid that other kids were not to associate with. I got invited to one birthday party my whole life...and the teacher (new in town) who invited me almost got fired for doing so. For exposing all those kids to me.
> 
> Sorry. I want to smack people when they say a child of rape is a "gift from god". My mother would have been better off, her life would have been better, if she'd have been able to have an abortion. I wouldn't know the difference.


I'm speechless except to say I'm glad you're here with us.


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> In those 31 states, the rapist can also stop an abortion or plans to release the child for adoption.
> 
> Yeah, it's a mess. And it's no picnic for the child of rape kept by her mother. I know. Mom loved me but her first husband tried to kill me twice because I was 'proof' he wasn't first (even though he knew that before he married her). Her second husband just couldn't bear to have me around so I was left to be raised by my grandparents. In a very small town where everybody is related by blood or marriage (and sometimes both) and knew everything. I was the kid that other kids were not to associate with. I got invited to one birthday party my whole life...and the teacher (new in town) who invited me almost got fired for doing so. For exposing all those kids to me.
> 
> Sorry. I want to smack people when they say a child of rape is a "gift from god". My mother would have been better off, her life would have been better, if she'd have been able to have an abortion. I wouldn't know the difference.


So sorry to hear all that. You have been through hell to get where you are today. You should be very proud of yourself and your accomplishments. It is easy for someone to tell others how things should be, but it is that "walk a mile in my shoes" as they have no idea how a rape affects a woman and those around her. Kids can be so cruel, but so can their parents.


----------



## MarilynKnits

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It's hard to believe that such ignorance exists today!


DH and I just came back from the library. While there I read last week's New York Times Sunday Magazine. There was an article about how military big shots get away with rape. The old boys' network protecting their own. Anyone who reports the rape or who prosecutes the rapists apparently has ended the idea of promotions and ruined their own career while the old boys thrive.

As long as rape is not considered a crime by the powers that be in the military or on college campuses we are a medieval and primitive society, albeit with the veneer of civilization.


----------



## MarilynKnits

jbandsma said:


> In those 31 states, the rapist can also stop an abortion or plans to release the child for adoption.
> 
> Yeah, it's a mess. And it's no picnic for the child of rape kept by her mother. I know. Mom loved me but her first husband tried to kill me twice because I was 'proof' he wasn't first (even though he knew that before he married her). Her second husband just couldn't bear to have me around so I was left to be raised by my grandparents. In a very small town where everybody is related by blood or marriage (and sometimes both) and knew everything. I was the kid that other kids were not to associate with. I got invited to one birthday party my whole life...and the teacher (new in town) who invited me almost got fired for doing so. For exposing all those kids to me.
> 
> Sorry. I want to smack people when they say a child of rape is a "gift from god". My mother would have been better off, her life would have been better, if she'd have been able to have an abortion. I wouldn't know the difference.


And the absolute stupidity to shun a child because the sperm donor was a criminal! It was neither the mother's nor the child's fault that the crime happened. In your case it resulted in a lovely person who is clear thinking and well spoken. Shame on all those stiff necked prigs!


----------



## jbandsma

MarilynKnits said:


> And the absolute stupidity to shun a child because the sperm donor was a criminal! It was neither the mother's nor the child's fault that the crime happened. In your case it resulted in a lovely person who is clear thinking and well spoken. Shame on all those stiff necked prigs!


Nah, what it resulted in is a person who can be quite a bitch at times and not be a bit sorry for it.


----------



## MindyT

Apropos of nothing in particular here is a link from a reporter who attended a gala given by the Wall Street thieves to themselves, mocking all of us and laughing about what they pulled off in 2008 and 2009.
Especially in light of the Omnibus bill just passed.
Ah, there is no end to the greed and entitlement.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/02/i-crashed-a-wall-street-secret-society.html?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> In those 31 states, the rapist can also stop an abortion or plans to release the child for adoption.
> 
> Yeah, it's a mess. And it's no picnic for the child of rape kept by her mother. I know. Mom loved me but her first husband tried to kill me twice because I was 'proof' he wasn't first (even though he knew that before he married her). Her second husband just couldn't bear to have me around so I was left to be raised by my grandparents. In a very small town where everybody is related by blood or marriage (and sometimes both) and knew everything. I was the kid that other kids were not to associate with. I got invited to one birthday party my whole life...and the teacher (new in town) who invited me almost got fired for doing so. For exposing all those kids to me.
> 
> Sorry. I want to smack people when they say a child of rape is a "gift from god". My mother would have been better off, her life would have been better, if she'd have been able to have an abortion. I wouldn't know the difference.


Overwhelming story. If you lived near me, I would throw you a big birthday party. Hope you got some as an adult.


----------



## NJG

MindyT said:


> Apropos of nothing in particular here is a link from a reporter who attended a gala given by the Wall Street thieves to themselves, mocking all of us and laughing about what they pulled off in 2008 and 2009.
> Especially in light of the Omnibus bill just passed.
> Ah, there is no end to the greed and entitlement.
> 
> http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/02/i-crashed-a-wall-street-secret-society.html?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits


Thanks Mindy, this made me really really mad. I sent it along with a "nice" letter to Senator Grassley. Won't help as he is a dud, but it makes me feel better.


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> Nah, what it resulted in is a person who can be quite a bitch at times and not be a bit sorry for it.


Good for you.


----------



## MindyT

NJG said:


> Thanks Mindy, this made me really really mad. I sent it along with a "nice" letter to Senator Grassley. Won't help as he is a dud, but it makes me feel better.


Thanks for the great idea. I'll be writing to Feinstein and Boxer today too.
Jackie Spear a Californian in the House of Representatives did not vote for the Omnibus bill or Bull, I guess it should be called!


----------



## jbandsma

MindyT said:


> Thanks for the great idea. I'll be writing to Feinstein and Boxer today too.
> Jackie Spear a Californian in the House of Representatives did not vote for the Omnibus bill or Bull, I guess it should be called!


No point in me even writing to our senators. Every time they've been asked to do something to actually help the people of this state you get a form letter telling you that they know better than you do what needs to be done and you shouldn't be worrying about such things.

SC sentators...Lindsey Graham and Tim Scott


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> No point in me even writing to our senators. Every time they've been asked to do something to actually help the people of this state you get a form letter telling you that they know better than you do what needs to be done and you shouldn't be worrying about such things.
> 
> SC sentators...Lindsey Graham and Tim Scott


Arizona Senator McCain does the same thing.


----------



## Wombatnomore

jbandsma said:


> In those 31 states, the rapist can also stop an abortion or plans to release the child for adoption.
> 
> Yeah, it's a mess. And it's no picnic for the child of rape kept by her mother. I know. Mom loved me but her first husband tried to kill me twice because I was 'proof' he wasn't first (even though he knew that before he married her). Her second husband just couldn't bear to have me around so I was left to be raised by my grandparents. In a very small town where everybody is related by blood or marriage (and sometimes both) and knew everything. I was the kid that other kids were not to associate with. I got invited to one birthday party my whole life...and the teacher (new in town) who invited me almost got fired for doing so. For exposing all those kids to me.
> 
> Sorry. I want to smack people when they say a child of rape is a "gift from god". My mother would have been better off, her life would have been better, if she'd have been able to have an abortion. I wouldn't know the difference.


OMG! That's so very sad that you had to go through such sickening treatment. Hugs to you jbandsma. Sending hugs and care your way.


----------



## jbandsma

Wombatnomore said:


> OMG! That's so very sad that you had to go through such sickening treatment. Hugs to you jbandsma. Sending hugs and care your way.


Thing is, I learned early to take care of myself. Ran away with a carnival when I turned 18. Found REAL family there.


----------



## Wombatnomore

jbandsma said:


> Nah, what it resulted in is a person who can be quite a bitch at times and not be a bit sorry for it.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Wombatnomore

jbandsma said:


> Thing is, I learned early to take care of myself. Ran away with a carnival when I turned 18. Found REAL family there.


Survival is key and smart people know how to survive richly. Power to you and more hugs.


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> Thing is, I learned early to take care of myself. Ran away with a carnival when I turned 18. Found REAL family there.


The Carnival??????? I now have an early memory of your telling us this. What did you do in the carnival? You need to write a memoir.


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> The Carnival??????? I now have an early memory of your telling us this. What did you do in the carnival? You need to write a memoir.


Handled snakes, stood for a knife thrower, lots of things when carnivals used to have a "back end" consisting of all kind of shows.


----------



## BrattyPatty

jbandsma said:


> Handled snakes, stood for a knife thrower, lots of things when carnivals used to have a "back end" consisting of all kind of shows.


Yikes! You have some brass woman!!


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> Handled snakes, stood for a knife thrower, lots of things when carnivals used to have a "back end" consisting of all kind of shows.


A snake handler, eh?

How about you take care of a snake or two in our midst, then? You would have our everlasting gratitude!!!


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> Handled snakes, stood for a knife thrower, lots of things when carnivals used to have a "back end" consisting of all kind of shows.


You must be gorgeous. Did you wear a beautiful costume? A life-long question - are the knife throwers legit? Was your life in danger?


----------



## NJG

MindyT said:


> Thanks for the great idea. I'll be writing to Feinstein and Boxer today too.
> Jackie Spear a Californian in the House of Representatives did not vote for the Omnibus bill or Bull, I guess it should be called!


I did thank Grassley for voting no as did Senator Harkin, although I am sure they had different reasons for voting no. I will also be sending one to the whitehouse in the near future to remind the president to keep his veto pen at the ready. I hope he uses it a lot these next two years. They will be going after medicare, social security, food stamps and any kind of help for the poor, education, the EPA and regulations on anything and everything. They will try to cut anything they can to give themselves a tax cut.


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> No point in me even writing to our senators. Every time they've been asked to do something to actually help the people of this state you get a form letter telling you that they know better than you do what needs to be done and you shouldn't be worrying about such things.
> 
> SC sentators...Lindsey Graham and Tim Scott


Oh, I am so sorry you have Graham as your senator. Charlie always answers my letter himself. It is just full of a big line of BS, but I keep writing on a regular basis. Every time I hear something on the news I don't like, I send him an email. I was going to go to his office the last time he was there so he could put a face to the name, but something came up and I couldn't go. He is getting to be a pretty old bugger, I think he should retire. He just doesn't take advice very well.


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> You must be gorgeous. Did you wear a beautiful costume? A life-long question - are the knife throwers legit? Was your life in danger?


Not any more to the first. I grew out of that. And yes, wardrobe was a big part of the act...I made my own. Fringe, bead work, sequins, etc.

And yes, the knife act I worked was definitely legit. I still have a notch in my left ear that took 9 stitches to close. Ruined a perfectly good costume. Never could get the blood out of it. I still often wonder what the ER doctor was thinking seeing me coming in covered in blood, in costume, 3 inch heels (fishnet stockings, of course) and stage makeup.


----------



## NJG

DGreen said:


> Arizona Senator McCain does the same thing.


I actually wrote to McCain one, time, don't remember what it was about now. Most senators don't except email from out of their state, but at that time McCain did. Boehner does too, but I am sure he never read the one I sent him. If I got crappy form letters from Charlie, I probably wouldn't write him anymore either.


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> Not any more to the first. I grew out of that. And yes, wardrobe was a big part of the act...I made my own. Fringe, bead work, sequins, etc.
> 
> And yes, the knife act I worked was definitely legit. I still have a notch in my left ear that took 9 stitches to close. Ruined a perfectly good costume. Never could get the blood out of it. I still often wonder what the ER doctor was thinking seeing me coming in covered in blood, in costume, 3 inch heels (fishnet stockings, of course) and stage makeup.


Ha. Ha. Then knife throwers are amazing and you are fearless. Please PM me a pic of you in the carnival if you have any.


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> Ha. Ha. Then knife throwers are amazing and you are fearless. Please PM me a pic of you in the carnival if you have any.


The only picture I have managed to still have is this one. Very tame as it was taken before a matinee and that means lots of kids, so easy on the costumes, etc.

I had been storing my 'trunk' (costumes, pictures, etc) at my grandparents' one winter. My grandmother, who was an alcoholic, went on a tear and burned everything. I regret losing those pictures.


----------



## SQM

Ha. Ha. I was right. You are gorgeous.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> The only picture I have managed to still have is this one. Very tame as it was taken before a matinee and that means lots of kids, so easy on the costumes, etc.
> 
> I had been storing my 'trunk' (costumes, pictures, etc) at my grandparents' one winter. My grandmother, who was an alcoholic, went on a tear and burned everything. I regret losing those pictures.


I'll bet you're still a stunner, J.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> I'll bet you're still a stunner, J.


Nope. Old fat and ugly. Figure I've earned every wrinkle and white hair and why mess with that.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> Nope. Old fat and ugly. Figure I've earned every wrinkle and white hair and why mess with that.


I'll say you've earned some gray hair. I would also love to hear more about your life in the carnival. So exotic!


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> I'll say you've earned some gray hair. I would also love to hear more about your life in the carnival. So exotic!


Not as glamorous as you might think. My first year out I once asked somebody 'when do you sleep' and the answer was 'in the winter'. I found out how right that was.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> A snake handler, eh?
> 
> How about you take care of a snake or two in our midst, then? You would have our everlasting gratitude!!!


Well, I prefer them with scales. Much easier to get along with. And they don't talk back.


----------



## Wombatnomore

jbandsma said:


> The only picture I have managed to still have is this one. Very tame as it was taken before a matinee and that means lots of kids, so easy on the costumes, etc.
> 
> I had been storing my 'trunk' (costumes, pictures, etc) at my grandparents' one winter. My grandmother, who was an alcoholic, went on a tear and burned everything. I regret losing those pictures.


There is real fire in that young lady! Still is fire in 'our' lovely lady!


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> Well, I prefer them with scales. Much easier to get along with. And they don't talk back.


 :thumbup: :XD: :XD:


----------



## MindyT

jbandsma said:


> Not as glamorous as you might think. My first year out I once asked somebody 'when do you sleep' and the answer was 'in the winter'. I found out how right that was.


Did anyone watch Carnivale (sic) on cable. It started back about 2004 pr 2005. Adrienne Barbeau played the snake handler. It was a very surrealistic show that we found fascinating. Set during the Depression .


----------



## jbandsma

MindyT said:


> Did anyone watch Carnivale (sic) on cable. It started back about 2004 pr 2005. Adrienne Barbeau played the snake handler. It was a very surrealistic show that we found fascinating. Set during the Depression .


Yep. I laughed a lot.


----------



## MindyT

jbandsma said:


> Yep. I laughed a lot.


I'll bet!
But it was dark and fascinating and there were side stories about the Depression and how things looked and what people were doing. We forget how everyone ( not the 1%) was really poor then and things just were done differently.


----------



## jbandsma

MindyT said:


> I'll bet!
> But it was dark and fascinating and there were side stories about the Depression and how things looked and what people were doing. We forget how everyone ( not the 1%) was really poor then and things just were done differently.


And how at that time there were no safety nets. The reason we now have social security and some welfare programs goes to that time.

The reason I laughed at that show was simply that so much of it (ignoring a whole bunch of the supernatural) was familiar.


----------



## Camacho

NJG said:


> This tells how the senators voted. Both Iowa senators voted no, although probably for different reasons, I am glad it was no.
> 
> http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2014/12/14/how-senators-voted-spending-bill/UhvLxcPZSa20IbOaT2vdPN/story.html


This is one of the upsetting things for me about moving from Massachusetts to Maine in a few months. I suppose Maine needs my family there more than Massachusetts needs us here.


----------



## Camacho

NJG said:


> Hey, I'm not a urologist, but I bet I could perform that surgery.


That reminds me of a time when my sister was upset with our dad's inability to keep his pants on around females, and offered to circumcise him with a dull blade and poor aim --without her glasses on. (She doesn't see too well without glasses, and doesn't see anything she is looking directly at even with glasses.) I do not wish anyone ill, but it still brings a grin.


----------



## BrattyPatty

Camacho said:


> That reminds me of a time when my sister was upset with our dad's inability to keep his pants on around females, and offered to circumcise him with a dull blade and poor aim --without her glasses on. (She doesn't see too well without glasses, and doesn't see anything she is looking directly at even with glasses.) I do not wish anyone ill, but it still brings a grin.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## BrattyPatty

Has anyone heard from Susan? I can't stop thinking about her and her family tonight.


----------



## Camacho

Poor Purl said:


> YESYESYES. Thursday would be great, and Friday. Now we have to really start planning, and finding some friends. Is there anyone else in the NY, New Jersey, Connecticut area you'd like to meet?


Well certainly everyone on this thread who happens to be around... Um, who would you suggest? This will be maybe my eighth trip that I have ever taken to New York City.


----------



## Farmwoman

My heart is with you and your family, and anyone else who is hurting. God bless. Hugs, and best wishes for healing, and comfort. : )


----------



## Camacho

jbandsma said:


> But, but...all they have to do is get an education and their employment worries are over.


I don't know about that. 
Education is no guarantee of sufficient income, or of a job that is both satisfying and has anything to do with anything the graduate ever wanted to do or has any expertise in.
Public education should be completely tuition-free from preschool through the university level, as our children are our future. Now that would preclude the need for Pell grants. But it also requires genuinely comprehensive schools.


----------



## Camacho

MindyT said:


> Thanks for the great idea. I'll be writing to Feinstein and Boxer today too.
> Jackie Spear a Californian in the House of Representatives did not vote for the Omnibus bill or Bull, I guess it should be called!


Gee, Ominous Bull. Now that describes it.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

Camacho said:


> That reminds me of a time when my sister was upset with our dad's inability to keep his pants on around females, and offered to circumcise him with a dull blade and poor aim --without her glasses on. (She doesn't see too well without glasses, and doesn't see anything she is looking directly at even with glasses.) I do not wish anyone ill, but it still brings a grin.


We Aussies had a saying "two house bricks and a bottle of tomato sauce behind the dunny". I never did find out what the tomato sauce was used for. Oh dear, please, do not take offence at my Aussie humour. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


----------



## Camacho

Wombatnomore said:


> OMG! That's so very sad that you had to go through such sickening treatment. Hugs to you jbandsma. Sending hugs and care your way.


and from me, too.


----------



## jbandsma

Camacho said:


> I don't know about that.
> Education is no guarantee of sufficient income, or of a job that is both satisfying and has anything to do with anything the graduate ever wanted to do or has any expertise in.
> Public education should be completely tuition-free from preschool through the university level, as our children are our future. Now that would preclude the need for Pell grants. But it also requires genuinely comprehensive schools.


I thought I put my 'dripping sarcasm' .gif on that one. But that is what the people sending jobs out of the country say when you can't find a job that will support a family. (When you can't find 3 jobs that will allow you to support a family.)


----------



## SQM

BrattyPatty said:


> Has anyone heard from Susan? I can't stop thinking about her and her family tonight.


Nu? And where is Cookie Queen? I must stage a massive hunt this evening. Start preparing.


----------



## MindyT

Further to higher education: the UC system was all but tuition free until Saint Ronnie became governor, during the times when we "dirty hippies" were around. Running for governor he had always been snarky about higher education, but after election he began the attack. Excerpted from a tuition study on the net:

"What is Mr. Reagan's educational legacy? Let's begin with a look at his record as governor of California. While running for the governorship, Mr. Reagan shrewdly made the most of disorder on University of California campuses. For instance, he demanded a legislative investigation of alleged Communism and sexual misconduct at the University of California at Berkeley. He insisted on public hearings, claiming "a small minority of hippies, radicals and filthy speech advocates" had caused disorder and that they should "be taken by the scruff of the neck and thrown off campus -- permanently",[1]

Once elected, Mr. Reagan set the educational tone for his administration by:
a. calling for an end to free tuition for state college and university students,

b. annually demanding 20% across-the-board cuts in higher education funding,[2]

c. repeatedly slashing construction funds for state campuses

d. engineering the firing of Clark Kerr, the popular President of the University of California, and

e. declaring that the state "should not subsidize intellectual curiosity,[3]"

Voila


----------



## Designer1234

SQM said:


> Nu? And where is Cookie Queen? I must stage a massive hunt this evening. Start preparing.


Does any one know how to reach her? I am worried too.


----------



## Designer1234

BrattyPatty said:


> Has anyone heard from Susan? I can't stop thinking about her and her family tonight.


She is in my thoughts constantly. We went through the same thing with Rob and so I know how dreadful a time this is for her. 
-----------------------------
I am wondering if we should all give 'someone' of the group our phone number so that we will know how to get in touch. I hate it when friends just stop posting.

One of the KP members has suddenly stopped posting and hasn't answered pm's and we aren't even sure of her real name or how to find out if she is okay.

I think it is best that it be sent by email. We know what Susan is going through but Cookie seems to have some reason for not posting. I am sure a lot of us have email addy's but a phone number is a good idea too.

I am sending my phone number to Dame today privately by email so that someone knows if anything keeps me off the computer.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Boy! I have some catching up to do! I buy one pair of shoes for winter and sandals for summer. My minivan is 17 years old! Its on its last leg. It was a company car we were able to buy from my husband's employer for half it's value. Now we're going to break down and buy another 2 year old company minivan for half it's value. At least the air conditioner will work. :wink:


Call it "recycling" when you get the new used van and it'll look brand new.:-D :-D


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> I thought I put my 'dripping sarcasm' .gif on that one. But that is what the people sending jobs out of the country say when you can't find a job that will support a family. (When you can't find 3 jobs that will allow you to support a family.)


There is one person in particular on D&P who believes it to be true, that poor people simply made bad choices at the start and could be doing better if they made the choices she made. Of course, the choice of parents is probably the first, and longest-lasting, mistake anyone could make, but too bad, that's still her/his own fault.


----------



## DGreen

Poor Purl said:


> There is one person in particular on D&P who believes it to be true, that poor people simply made bad choices at the start and could be doing better if they made the choices she made. Of course, the choice of parents is probably the first, and longest-lasting, mistake anyone could make, but too bad, that's still her/his own fault.


Being a good Christian, that person and others with the same mindset are quick to point out that "god promises no one a life free of suffering." Which, obviously, makes it okay for the poor to suffer. Heaven awaits.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> Being a good Christian, that person and others with the same mindset are quick to point out that "god promises no one a life free of suffering." Which, obviously, makes it okay for the poor to suffer. Heaven awaits.


Which is why they hate me when I remind them that christianity is a death cult. Established on a death (sorry, resurrection can't occur if someone isn't truly dead...can't have it both ways) and both punishments and rewards only come AFTER death.

I expect to hear the howls (even here) in 9, 8, 7.....


----------



## BrattyPatty

AAAAAAWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Just kiddin


----------



## jbandsma

BrattyPatty said:


> AAAAAAWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
> 
> Just kiddin


That's ok. I can imagine you under a full moon and needing a shave.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> Which is why they hate me when I remind them that christianity is a death cult. Established on a death (sorry, resurrection can't occur if someone isn't truly dead...can't have it both ways) and both punishments and rewards only come AFTER death.
> 
> I expect to hear the howls (even here) in 9, 8, 7.....


I believe we can "go to hell" long before death. Easy enough to arrange for ones self by being a horrible person.

Figuratively speaking, of course.


----------



## NJG

Camacho said:


> That reminds me of a time when my sister was upset with our dad's inability to keep his pants on around females, and offered to circumcise him with a dull blade and poor aim --without her glasses on. (She doesn't see too well without glasses, and doesn't see anything she is looking directly at even with glasses.) I do not wish anyone ill, but it still brings a grin.


I have met a few men in my life that needed that transformation. I told one guy to stay away from me, my name was Lorena Bobbit. He did leave me alone after that.


----------



## NJG

Camacho said:


> That reminds me of a time when my sister was upset with our dad's inability to keep his pants on around females, and offered to circumcise him with a dull blade and poor aim --without her glasses on. (She doesn't see too well without glasses, and doesn't see anything she is looking directly at even with glasses.) I do not wish anyone ill, but it still brings a grin.


double post sorry


----------



## BrattyPatty

jbandsma said:


> They aren't making you watch Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh are they? You poor thing. Well, if necessary, you can always claim justifiable mayhem.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> Which is why they hate me when I remind them that christianity is a death cult. Established on a death (sorry, resurrection can't occur if someone isn't truly dead...can't have it both ways) and both punishments and rewards only come AFTER death.
> 
> I expect to hear the howls (even here) in 9, 8, 7.....


I have to laugh. Ex-man was a Catholic drop out and I used to call Catholicism "the cult of the dead". ( I will share your howls. Remember kids, I love all religions being an interfaith minister. )


----------



## Camacho

jbandsma said:


> I thought I put my 'dripping sarcasm' .gif on that one. But that is what the people sending jobs out of the country say when you can't find a job that will support a family. (When you can't find 3 jobs that will allow you to support a family.)


Maybe I was agreeing too vehemently. I'm very sorry. I did see the sarcasm. It just hits such a sore spot for me. Usually I can laugh off any hardship that I may experience. But this is one that has directly affected my children.

Christina


----------



## jbandsma

Camacho said:


> Maybe I was agreeing too vehemently. I'm very sorry. I did see the sarcasm. It just hits such a sore spot for me. Usually I can laugh off any hardship that I may experience. But this is one that has directly affected my children.
> 
> Christina


It makes me angry, too. We've watched my husband's good job get destroyed and now our take home pay is a bit less than HALF of what it was in 2001. Half.

We're just lucky we don't have any kids to be affected by it. But it hasn't been easy. So I sympathize with you.

Some people need hit upside the head with a clue x 4.


----------



## Poor Purl

DGreen said:


> Being a good Christian, that person and others with the same mindset are quick to point out that "god promises no one a life free of suffering." Which, obviously, makes it okay for the poor to suffer. Heaven awaits.


The person I referred to - okay, it's solow - is their token Jew. At least she doesn't try to tell anyone what god promises them. She's just tedious about her own wonderfulness.


----------



## DGreen

Poor Purl said:


> The person I referred to - okay, it's solow - is their token Jew. At least she doesn't try to tell anyone what god promises them. She's just tedious about her own wonderfulness.


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> In those 31 states, the rapist can also stop an abortion or plans to release the child for adoption.
> 
> Yeah, it's a mess. And it's no picnic for the child of rape kept by her mother. I know. Mom loved me but her first husband tried to kill me twice because I was 'proof' he wasn't first (even though he knew that before he married her). Her second husband just couldn't bear to have me around so I was left to be raised by my grandparents. In a very small town where everybody is related by blood or marriage (and sometimes both) and knew everything. I was the kid that other kids were not to associate with. I got invited to one birthday party my whole life...and the teacher (new in town) who invited me almost got fired for doing so. For exposing all those kids to me.
> 
> Sorry. I want to smack people when they say a child of rape is a "gift from god". My mother would have been better off, her life would have been better, if she'd have been able to have an abortion. I wouldn't know the difference.


I haven't replied to this because I simply don't know what to say. That you should be ostracized because of a crime committed on your mother is unthinkable. I wonder whether that still happens in small towns where everyone knows everyone else's business.

I think you're very brave to say what you did in your last paragraph, though it leaves me speechless. How sad you must feel at times.


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> It makes me angry, too. We've watched my husband's good job get destroyed and now our take home pay is a bit less than HALF of what it was in 2001. Half.
> 
> We're just lucky we don't have any kids to be affected by it. But it hasn't been easy. So I sympathize with you.
> 
> Some people need hit upside the head with a clue x 4.


That's what you get for choosing the circus over an accounting degree. Oh, god, did I really write that?


----------



## jbandsma

Poor Purl said:


> That's what you get for choosing the circus over an accounting degree. Oh, god, did I really write that?


I wanted to be a veterinarian but was told that if I was going to college I had to be something FIT for a woman...a nurse, a teacher or a secretary. Well, that really didn't appeal to me at all.

And, being out on the road, I got to see and try all kinds of different things. Even though what I've taken courses in and studied wouldn't end up in a degree, at least I'm never bored with myself.


----------



## jbandsma

Poor Purl said:


> That's what you get for choosing the circus over an accounting degree. Oh, god, did I really write that?


oh, and I've always been a bit of a rebel. As you can see. (age 3)


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> oh, and I've always been a bit of a rebel. As you can see. (age 3)


I would LOVE to know who you were scolding!


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> I would LOVE to know who you were scolding!


I really don't remember.


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> I wanted to be a veterinarian but was told that if I was going to college I had to be something FIT for a woman...a nurse, a teacher or a secretary. Well, that really didn't appeal to me at all.
> 
> And, being out on the road, I got to see and try all kinds of different things. Even though what I've taken courses in and studied wouldn't end up in a degree, at least I'm never bored with myself.


Aren't you too young to be told you had to be one of those "feminine" things? Of course they didn't appeal to you if you were interested in caring for animals.

But you're certainly right about one thing: you're never boring. Never.


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> oh, and I've always been a bit of a rebel. As you can see. (age 3)


Protesting, I suppose. But adorable.

Like Shirley Temple, the Littlest Rebel.


----------



## jbandsma

Poor Purl said:


> Aren't you too young to be told you had to be one of those "feminine" things? Of course they didn't appeal to you if you were interested in caring for animals.
> 
> But you're certainly right about one thing: you're never boring. Never.


How sweet of you. But no, I'm pushing 70 hard enough that with the next birthday I'll probably be dragging it behind me.


----------



## Designer1234

DGreen said:


> I believe we can "go to hell" long before death. Easy enough to arrange for ones self by being a horrible person.
> 
> Figuratively speaking, of course.


I believe in trying to do unto others as ye would have them do unto you no matter what you believe.


----------



## Designer1234

jbandsma said:


> How sweet of you. But no, I'm pushing 70 hard enough that with the next birthday I'll probably be dragging it behind me.


It doesn't get much better either. Then I think of the 
alternative. I imagine I am the senior person here, darn it.


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> How sweet of you. But no, I'm pushing 70 hard enough that with the next birthday I'll probably be dragging it behind me.


All I meant was that I'm older than you are, but nobody said that to me. I found out when I graduated that my mother had been wishing I'd become a teacher, but she never said so.


----------



## Designer1234

Poor Purl said:


> I haven't replied to this because I simply don't know what to say. That you should be ostracized because of a crime committed on your mother is unthinkable. I wonder whether that still happens in small towns where everyone knows everyone else's business.
> 
> I think you're very brave to say what you did in your last paragraph, though it leaves me speechless. How sad you must feel at times.


My heart aches for that little girl. What more can anyone else say?


----------



## Designer1234

Poor Purl said:


> That's what you get for choosing the circus over an accounting degree. Oh, god, did I really write that?


naughty., naughty, Purl. Your humor kills me . I laugh out loud and dh comes in and says what the heck are you laughing at. once in awhile I tell him.


----------



## Designer1234

Well, ladies I have decided to go and put the ginger bread house together and let Hayley decorate it rather than spend the time building it. It is a touchy business to get the darned things to stand without falling down while the icing hardens. I won't be on line much tomorrow as we are 'decorating'. ttyl.


----------



## Poor Purl

Designer1234 said:


> naughty., naughty, Purl. Your humor kills me . I laugh out loud and dh comes in and says what the heck are you laughing at. once in awhile I tell him.


Once in a while?


----------



## DGreen

Designer1234 said:


> I believe in trying to do unto others as ye would have them do unto you no matter what you believe.


A good policy.


----------



## DGreen

Designer1234 said:


> It doesn't get much better either. Then I think of the
> alternative. I imagine I am the senior person here, darn it.


If so, not by much. I'm only a couple of years younger than you, and judging from your photo, you look great.

I like to think we are "contemporaries." At this stage in life, who's counting?


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> oh, and I've always been a bit of a rebel. As you can see. (age 3)


Darling pic.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

Poor Purl said:


> All I meant was that I'm older than you are, but nobody said that to me. I found out when I graduated that my mother had been wishing I'd become a teacher, but she never said so.


You were very lucky. The high school I attended, a convent, girls only, only went to year 10 because girls did not need to go to school longer than than that. The Junior Certificate was their PhD. Some girls were taken out of school before that, their mothers took them out of school the day they turned 14 and sent them to work in a factory making shirts or chocolate or some other dead end job. In my case I had to get a job because I had two younger brothers and boys were educated not girls. Never mind the fact that one of them was as thick as two short planks and a lazy little blighter as well. The brothers told mum to take him out of school and let him get a job because he was a disruptive element in school. She took both brothers out of school because it was not fair to leave one there, she said. There is only 5 month difference in their ages and the younger brother was bright, he should have been left at school. There were only 5 girls left in year 10 and years 8, 9 and 10 were all in the same room. The only course we could take was a commercial course, shorthand, typing and bookkeeping. I hated shorthand but was not allowed to drop it, I was told I could get a better job with shorthand. Yes, I earned my living as a shorthand typiste until I switched to the dictaphone machine, but even then the big bosses suggested I take night school classes to increase my shorthand speed to about 120 wpm, no I did not take the classes. People really do not talk that fast, especially when they are trying to think at the same time.

I wanted to go to uni, I dreamed of going to uni, I wanted to study Anthropology, Archeology and Paleontology. Girls did not go to uni, unless they were the daughters of rich people, in fact children from working class areas do not go to uni, uni is really only for the children of the rich. etc. etc. etc. Besides, what stupid subjects are they? How can you earn a living studying that rubbish? You go to uni to study to become a doctor, a lawyer, a dentist, something decent that would get you a proper job. AND STUPID GIRL have you not noticed that only the children of lawyers become lawyers and there are no female lawyers, only the children of doctors become doctors and female doctors are not real doctors - not like male doctors, and who would want to become a dentist, looking in people's mouths all day. I can still hear the arguments. OK I will become a nurse, but you could not start your nursing training until you were nearly 18 and then mum found out that nurses did not make as much money as I was making, end of the nursing career idea. Ditto with the choice of teaching, after all my mother's mother had been a teacher. No, go to work and earn money, forget the idea of going to teacher's college. Mum was sent to work as a shorthand typiste at age 15 so off to work girl. My three older sisters were taken out of school the day they turned 14. One of my sisters said to me about 1990, you were very lucky, mum let you get an education, you were able to go to uni. Yes, I let her have it with both barrels. I told her I was at school for exactly two years longer than she was and mum prevented me from going to uni before I was married. It was only after I was married and my children were at school for a few years that I could go to uni. I told her that she could have done the same thing, she was still a relatively young woman, she was 55, she could still go to uni if she really wanted to. No, she did not want to make the effort she said. I also worked after I was married, yes, using my hated shorthand skills again.

In those good old days we had no say in our future, the parents ruled the roost until we turned 21, not 18 as it is today. Of yes, and hand over your unopened pay packet to mum each pay day, or else. Never mind any stupid ideas of running away because you cannot legally rent a room, flat or house until you are 21, besides your parents could have you arrested by the police and brought home again.

Boy, life was a barrel of fun for girls back in the early 50s, such wide career choices we had. NOT. My jealousy and envy of today's girls who can study in whatever field they wish is painfully obvious.

Climbing down from my soap box now. Yes mum I will belt up and go and do the ironing for you, iron my brothers' school clothes so they will look so nice when they catch the bus in the morning. mutter, mutter, mutter.


----------



## SQM

EveMCooke said:


> You were very lucky. The high school I attended, a convent, girls only, only went to year 10 because girls did not need to go to school longer than than that. The Junior Certificate was their PhD. Some girls were taken out of school before that, their mothers took them out of school the day they turned 14 and sent them to work in a factory making shirts or chocolate or some other dead end job. In my case I had to get a job because I had two younger brothers and boys were educated not girls. Never mind the fact that one of them was as thick as two short planks and a lazy little blighter as well. The brothers told mum to take him out of school and let him get a job because he was a disruptive element in school. She took both brothers out of school because it was not fair to leave one there, she said. There is only 5 month difference in their ages and the younger brother was bright, he should have been left at school. There were only 5 girls left in year 10 and years 8, 9 and 10 were all in the same room. The only course we could take was a commercial course, shorthand, typing and bookkeeping. I hated shorthand but was not allowed to drop it, I was told I could get a better job with shorthand. Yes, I earned my living as a shorthand typiste until I switched to the dictaphone machine, but even then the big bosses suggested I take night school classes to increase my shorthand speed to about 120 wpm, no I did not take the classes. People really do not talk that fast, especially when they are trying to think at the same time.
> 
> I wanted to go to uni, I dreamed of going to uni, I wanted to study Anthropology, Archeology and Paleontology. Girls did not go to uni, unless they were the daughters of rich people, in fact children from working class areas do not go to uni, uni is really only for the children of the rich. etc. etc. etc. Besides, what stupid subjects are they? How can you earn a living studying that rubbish? You go to uni to study to become a doctor, a lawyer, a dentist, something decent that would get you a proper job. AND STUPID GIRL have you not noticed that only the children of lawyers become lawyers and there are no female lawyers, only the children of doctors become doctors and female doctors are not real doctors - not like male doctors, and who would want to become a dentist, looking in people's mouths all day. I can still hear the arguments. OK I will become a nurse, but you could not start your nursing training until you were nearly 18 and then mum found out that nurses did not make as much money as I was making, end of the nursing career idea. Ditto with the choice of teaching, after all my mother's mother had been a teacher. No, go to work and earn money, forget the idea of going to teacher's college. Mum was sent to work as a shorthand typiste at age 15 so off to work girl. My three older sisters were taken out of school the day they turned 14. One of my sisters said to me about 1990, you were very lucky, mum let you get an education, you were able to go to uni. Yes, I let her have it with both barrels. I told her I was at school for exactly two years longer than she was and mum prevented me from going to uni before I was married. It was only after I was married and my children were at school for a few years that I could go to uni. I told her that she could have done the same thing, she was still a relatively young woman, she was 55, she could still go to uni if she really wanted to. No, she did not want to make the effort she said. I also worked after I was married, yes, using my hated shorthand skills again.
> 
> In those good old days we had no say in our future, the parents ruled the roost until we turned 21, not 18 as it is today. Of yes, and hand over your unopened pay packet to mum each pay day, or else. Never mind any stupid ideas of running away because you cannot legally rent a room, flat or house until you are 21, besides your parents could have you arrested by the police and brought home again.
> 
> Boy, life was a barrel of fun for girls back in the early 50s, such wide career choices we had. NOT. My jealousy and envy of today's girls who can study in whatever field they wish is painfully obvious.
> 
> Climbing down from my soap box now. Yes mum I will belt up and go and do the ironing for you, iron my brothers' school clothes so they will look so nice when they catch the bus in the morning. mutter, mutter, mutter.


Sad story but with a good ending - the best kind.


----------



## Designer1234

half an hour later: I am back and the sides are drying. I don't know why I do these things. I missed last year but she asked me when I arrived here and who can say no? They are the most finicky things. But look good when they are together and decorated, which will be her job.


----------



## Designer1234

jbandsma said:


> I wanted to be a veterinarian but was told that if I was going to college I had to be something FIT for a woman...a nurse, a teacher or a secretary. Well, that really didn't appeal to me at all.
> 
> And, being out on the road, I got to see and try all kinds of different things. Even though what I've taken courses in and studied wouldn't end up in a degree, at least I'm never bored with myself.


That sounds like me. We lived in western Canada and there was only one art school in Canada in Toronto when I graduated from school. I asked Dad if he would fund me for two years and he so no, but I will pay for a business college, in case someone doesn't want to marry you!

I tell myself it was the times and it was in his eyes best for me. When I was visiting him before he died (in hospice) he said he had made the biggest mistake, and apologized. I finally put it to rest but it took me years. I never did go to art school. Maybe it was better for me as I don't like to follow instructions and I doubt it would have been as much fun. I like to teach as much as to do. But usually I teach it completely different than an art teacher. What is making me open up so much - also we are learning about each other.

I expect a reaction from our 'friend' but they can say what they want. I really don't care.


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> How sweet of you. But no, I'm pushing 70 hard enough that with the next birthday I'll probably be dragging it behind me.


I am right behind you at 68. I remember when I though 68 was ancient.


----------



## SQM

NJG said:


> I am right behind you at 68. I remember when I though 68 was ancient.


I am 68, too and I remember when I thought 40 was old.


----------



## Poor Purl

EveMCooke said:


> You were very lucky. The high school I attended, a convent, girls only, only went to year 10 because girls did not need to go to school longer than than that. The Junior Certificate was their PhD. Some girls were taken out of school before that, their mothers took them out of school the day they turned 14 and sent them to work in a factory making shirts or chocolate or some other dead end job. In my case I had to get a job because I had two younger brothers and boys were educated not girls. Never mind the fact that one of them was as thick as two short planks and a lazy little blighter as well. The brothers told mum to take him out of school and let him get a job because he was a disruptive element in school. She took both brothers out of school because it was not fair to leave one there, she said. There is only 5 month difference in their ages and the younger brother was bright, he should have been left at school. There were only 5 girls left in year 10 and years 8, 9 and 10 were all in the same room. The only course we could take was a commercial course, shorthand, typing and bookkeeping. I hated shorthand but was not allowed to drop it, I was told I could get a better job with shorthand. Yes, I earned my living as a shorthand typiste until I switched to the dictaphone machine, but even then the big bosses suggested I take night school classes to increase my shorthand speed to about 120 wpm, no I did not take the classes. People really do not talk that fast, especially when they are trying to think at the same time.
> 
> I wanted to go to uni, I dreamed of going to uni, I wanted to study Anthropology, Archeology and Paleontology. Girls did not go to uni, unless they were the daughters of rich people, in fact children from working class areas do not go to uni, uni is really only for the children of the rich. etc. etc. etc. Besides, what stupid subjects are they? How can you earn a living studying that rubbish? You go to uni to study to become a doctor, a lawyer, a dentist, something decent that would get you a proper job. AND STUPID GIRL have you not noticed that only the children of lawyers become lawyers and there are no female lawyers, only the children of doctors become doctors and female doctors are not real doctors - not like male doctors, and who would want to become a dentist, looking in people's mouths all day. I can still hear the arguments. OK I will become a nurse, but you could not start your nursing training until you were nearly 18 and then mum found out that nurses did not make as much money as I was making, end of the nursing career idea. Ditto with the choice of teaching, after all my mother's mother had been a teacher. No, go to work and earn money, forget the idea of going to teacher's college. Mum was sent to work as a shorthand typiste at age 15 so off to work girl. My three older sisters were taken out of school the day they turned 14. One of my sisters said to me about 1990, you were very lucky, mum let you get an education, you were able to go to uni. Yes, I let her have it with both barrels. I told her I was at school for exactly two years longer than she was and mum prevented me from going to uni before I was married. It was only after I was married and my children were at school for a few years that I could go to uni. I told her that she could have done the same thing, she was still a relatively young woman, she was 55, she could still go to uni if she really wanted to. No, she did not want to make the effort she said. I also worked after I was married, yes, using my hated shorthand skills again.
> 
> In those good old days we had no say in our future, the parents ruled the roost until we turned 21, not 18 as it is today. Of yes, and hand over your unopened pay packet to mum each pay day, or else. Never mind any stupid ideas of running away because you cannot legally rent a room, flat or house until you are 21, besides your parents could have you arrested by the police and brought home again.
> 
> Boy, life was a barrel of fun for girls back in the early 50s, such wide career choices we had. NOT. My jealousy and envy of today's girls who can study in whatever field they wish is painfully obvious.
> 
> Climbing down from my soap box now. Yes mum I will belt up and go and do the ironing for you, iron my brothers' school clothes so they will look so nice when they catch the bus in the morning. mutter, mutter, mutter.


I had not realized how different our cultures are, or at least were in the fifties and sixties. I, too, went to an all-girls school, a Jewish religious school, but though less than half went to college (equivalent to your uni) afterward, we were given full academic programs, and classes in typing and shorthand if we wanted them. Most of us took typing; I don't recall how many took shorthand, but I wasn't one of them. Though we weren't expected to go to college, we weren't discouraged, either in school or at home, and a slight few of us were encouraged to apply.

This was a very traditional school, with religious studies in the morning, including Hebrew language, and secular studies in the afternoon. One year we were taught how to clean chickens, though I don't remember that kind of thing happening ever again.

A few of my friends (and many of my friends went to public school) had never wanted college and didn't go; one went years later, when her children were old enough to come home to an empty house.

My parents were far from wealthy. We lived in public housing until I was 16, and some of our neighbors were on Welfare. But it was a time when most families needed only one paycheck to support them, and my father managed it, with a blue-collar job. Once in a while my mother would work at the same factory, when they needed extra help in a hurry, but otherwise she was a stay-at-home mom. My sister, 6 years my senior, had always wanted to be a secretary, and she became a very good one. She worked from the age of 16 (part time until she graduated) until her late 60s, because she wanted to. She gave our parents most of her paycheck, some of which they put into a bank account to save up for her wedding. I worked summers and part-time the rest of the year, but my parents wouldn't take money from me, I never knew why. So I would stick cash into their wallets, thinking they wouldn't know the difference, but they did and gave it all back. My brother, 3 years younger than me, was just a bad student with no interest in school. He went to night college for two terms, then dropped it. But he got a pretty decent job working at the New York Stock Exchange after high school.

I'm not sure whether all this detail is necessary, but it does show how different our lives were, though we were living through the same time. I don't know whether our locations explain the difference; our religions possibly, though I doubt it; economic class, though we seem to have been equal there, too. Mostly I think it had something to do with the fact that my parents were immigrants from eastern Europe and wanted their children to be real Americans and have the freedom we're supposed to have in this country.

I think you've had enough of my memoirs, and it's 2:50 am here, so I'll just end.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

Purl I found your memoirs very interesting. It does show the difference in the cultures. The boys at the Christian Brothers College were offered a wide range of subject to study, but the nuns just taught the commercial subjects to the girls. They reckoned that the girls would not need an education because they would get married, be a stay at home mum and have lots of children to send to the convent schools. If they were stay at home mums they could come down and help the nuns in the nunnery with various tasks as well as clean the church, do the flowers for the church, running the school fete, etc. There would be a host of unpaid tasks to keep them busy and supposedly happy if they were bored. My mother was not popular with the nuns because she was not at their beck and call, in fact if they ever asked her to do anything she was always too busy. That is until she was in her late 60s and my sister was working at the aged care facility run by the nuns. Mum became firm friends with the nuns and would often help them out with certain tasks, mainly because she had plenty of time on her hands and because she could spend time chatting to her friendly nuns, but it was always on her terms. She spent more time playing cards and scrabble with the nuns than she did doing any work.


----------



## cookiequeen

It is interesting to read our memoirs. Yes, our backgrounds may be very different but we've come together because we found so many similarities in values and viewpoints. I guess we can explore how that happened in another chapter. I grew up in the fifties and sixties in a small town (pop. 1500) in Northern Minnesota, the youngest of 4 children. My father was an immigrant who was quite a bit older than my mother. Like my dad, most of the people in the area worked in the iron ore mines, and my mom stayed home. We went to a public school in a huge, beautiful building that housed K through 12. There was a swimming pool, two gyms, Home Ec. and shop labs, science labs, football field with lights--it was really quite a school. With so few students, our curriculum was limited, and in my era we didn't have a language offered. I took all the higher math and science but balked at physics and ended up being a star typist and steno. At the end of our education, we went to see the principal, who doubled as school counselor. "You can be a secretary, nurse, or teacher," he said, and off to college we went, all 4 of us. Education was important to my immigrant father and almost-immigrant mother, who BTW, was born in Mt. Kisco, NY. Although we didn't have a lot of money, my parents saved for a college education for all of us. I went off to the big university, was a teacher for awhile, and went back to school many years later.
My mother was one of 11 children and one of 3 girls. She was a great baker and cook, and I started baking at an early age. I'm not accomplished at baking pies or bread, at which my mother excelled. She also crocheted beautiful edgings and doilies, which I never learned to do. We all embroidered, though, and I picked up knitting later. So these days at the age of 74, I knit and bake cookies. Every year at Christmas I bake probably 15 kinds of cookies and put them on pretty Christmas plates to give to our friends. Dessert on Christmas Day is a Yule Log that I get better at making every year.


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## DGreen

cookiequeen said:


> It is interesting to read our memoirs. Yes, our backgrounds may be very different but we've come together because we found so many similarities in values and viewpoints. I guess we can explore how that happened in another chapter. I grew up in the fifties and sixties in a small town (pop. 1500) in Northern Minnesota, the youngest of 4 children. My father was an immigrant who was quite a bit older than my mother. Like my dad, most of the people in the area worked in the iron ore mines, and my mom stayed home. We went to a public school in a huge, beautiful building that housed K through 12. There was a swimming pool, two gyms, Home Ec. and shop labs, science labs, football field with lights--it was really quite a school. With so few students, our curriculum was limited, and in my era we didn't have a language offered. I took all the higher math and science but balked at physics and ended up being a star typist and steno. At the end of our education, we went to see the principal, who doubled as school counselor. "You can be a secretary, nurse, or teacher," he said, and off to college we went, all 4 of us. Education was important to my immigrant father and almost-immigrant mother, who BTW, was born in Mt. Kisco, NY. Although we didn't have a lot of money, my parents saved for a college education for all of us. I went off to the big university, was a teacher for awhile, and went back to school many years later.
> My mother was one of 11 children and one of 3 girls. She was a great baker and cook, and I started baking at an early age. I'm not accomplished at baking pies or bread, at which my mother excelled. She also crocheted beautiful edgings and doilies, which I never learned to do. We all embroidered, though, and I picked up knitting later. So these days at the age of 74, I knit and bake cookies. Every year at Christmas I bake probably 15 kinds of cookies and put them on pretty Christmas plates to give to our friends. Dessert on Christmas Day is a Yule Log that I get better at making every year.


I sometimes think women of our generation knit, quilt, paint...create, because our dreams were stifled and we need an outlet for the potential that was suppressed.

My family story is straight out of "The Grapes of Wrath." My parents met at a migrant camp in California when my mothers family passed through, picking fruit. My father's family had traveled west from Oklahoma during the depression, making their way to the "promised land" as part of a caravan from their little town. My parents were married at 16 and the early years were rough. We never had much money and my father had a gypsy soul so we moved all the time - I went to 14 different schools by the time I graduated from high school. I was expected to learn all the domestic skills and I excelled at cooking, sewing and crafting, all of which came from my paternal grandmother because my mother couldn't be bothered. She liked fast cars and gambling and often said "I'm not afraid of hard work - I'll lie down right next to it and go to sleep." True story.

I took over cooking and housekeeping when I was about 12 years old. Self defense. Mom was a terrible cook and hated housework. It was a given that I would find a husband and settle down and when I married at 16 (a very stupid family tradition) not one person in my family suggested I continue my education or offered any guidance in any other direction. At the time, my father was working at Stanford University and I could have attended STANFORD on a tuition waiver. I had the academic chops to do it, too. Finished high school and went to work to put hubby through school, but he was a slug and an abuser and I always had to work. Always. Secretarial, office manager, payroll, HR, always dead-end jobs due to my lack of education. Took classes when I was older, but never able to string much together because of the demands of work, family and the incredible energy it took to survive the abuse. Crafting was a lifeline for me in so many ways.


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## Poor Purl

EveMCooke said:


> Purl I found your memoirs very interesting. It does show the difference in the cultures. The boys at the Christian Brothers College were offered a wide range of subject to study, but the nuns just taught the commercial subjects to the girls. They reckoned that the girls would not need an education because they would get married, be a stay at home mum and have lots of children to send to the convent schools. If they were stay at home mums they could come down and help the nuns in the nunnery with various tasks as well as clean the church, do the flowers for the church, running the school fete, etc. There would be a host of unpaid tasks to keep them busy and supposedly happy if they were bored. My mother was not popular with the nuns because she was not at their beck and call, in fact if they ever asked her to do anything she was always too busy. That is until she was in her late 60s and my sister was working at the aged care facility run by the nuns. Mum became firm friends with the nuns and would often help them out with certain tasks, mainly because she had plenty of time on her hands and because she could spend time chatting to her friendly nuns, but it was always on her terms. She spent more time playing cards and scrabble with the nuns than she did doing any work.


Eve, what a good discussion you opened up. From your earlier description of your mum, it sounds as though she ruled the roost at home, and apparently wouldn't let the nuns rule her. It's nice to know nuns have time for cards and scrabble; I always imagine them praying or planting, or both at the same time.

So far not one of us who volunteered her story came from money. I wonder whether that's true in general for people with similar political opinions.


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## MaidInBedlam

I'm beginning to feel like a young thing here. I'm 65. Some mornings I wake up all bright and ready for anything and saying I'm only 65!! Other mornings I wake up with aches and pains from general wear and tear saying oh, no, I'm 65. Ugh! Still, I didn't miss out on the sexist education we girls got. I grew up in a university town, where there were a very distinct division between town and gown, and I was a townie. Yes, I see some cultural differences in our stories, but the theme of being raised to be a wife and mother, and/or to think that only certain jobs and careers were for women runs through it all. We had something called a track system in our junior highs and high school. One's general academic performance had a bit to do with it but sex, race and social class were way too important. The boys weren't left out either. My high school was rated one of the top three in the US for years. We had two swimming pools, a little theater and the largest theater in town that seats over 3,000. Building for that theater started just before WWII which my mother remembers well. It's still the largest theater in town and well-known for its acoustic wonderfulness.

In spite of being surrounded by the great minds and cultural influences attached to the university, there was still a separate and distinct town with neighborhoods formed by race and social class. Our elementary schools were neighborhood schools so all that stuff followed us from home to school and back again. My dad blue-collar intelligentsia as it would have been called then. Maybe I should call that track systemthe same old rut. Starting school meant being in a group that could easily be defined and taught in certain ways and that never stopped. It just became more obvious. High school had 4 tracks, white and affluent or very smart equals college bound, everybody else downhill from there. Mexican and black girls automatically went into the secretarial track, or domestic training so they cold learn to be good maids. Lots of boys went into carpentry or mechanics classes. Some kids ended up getting the second class academic classes. Those were home to the less competent teachers, too.

Some kids did leave school at 16, not in a formal way, but considered to be dropouts even though they did it because they had to work. And a lot of them turned the money they earned right over to Mom and Dad. The big difference for me is that my town was a hotbed of all kinds of activities associated with the 60s. Sometimes I think we invented protest movements and hippies. Well, all you have to do is look at any documentaries about the 60s any to see what I mean. It still makes me blush to see myself in the crowd scenes... But I'm also part of the 4th generation of my family in this town, a peculiar position all its own. My high school class has a Facebook page and we've been talking about how others saw our hometown and us as a result when we grew up and went out into the world.

Oh dear, that's enough nattering for now. This post seems t have rambled more than usual for me.


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## Poor Purl

cookiequeen said:


> It is interesting to read our memoirs. Yes, our backgrounds may be very different but we've come together because we found so many similarities in values and viewpoints. I guess we can explore how that happened in another chapter. I grew up in the fifties and sixties in a small town (pop. 1500) in Northern Minnesota, the youngest of 4 children. My father was an immigrant who was quite a bit older than my mother. Like my dad, most of the people in the area worked in the iron ore mines, and my mom stayed home. We went to a public school in a huge, beautiful building that housed K through 12. There was a swimming pool, two gyms, Home Ec. and shop labs, science labs, football field with lights--it was really quite a school. With so few students, our curriculum was limited, and in my era we didn't have a language offered. I took all the higher math and science but balked at physics and ended up being a star typist and steno. At the end of our education, we went to see the principal, who doubled as school counselor. "You can be a secretary, nurse, or teacher," he said, and off to college we went, all 4 of us. Education was important to my immigrant father and almost-immigrant mother, who BTW, was born in Mt. Kisco, NY. Although we didn't have a lot of money, my parents saved for a college education for all of us. I went off to the big university, was a teacher for awhile, and went back to school many years later.
> My mother was one of 11 children and one of 3 girls. She was a great baker and cook, and I started baking at an early age. I'm not accomplished at baking pies or bread, at which my mother excelled. She also crocheted beautiful edgings and doilies, which I never learned to do. We all embroidered, though, and I picked up knitting later. So these days at the age of 74, I knit and bake cookies. Every year at Christmas I bake probably 15 kinds of cookies and put them on pretty Christmas plates to give to our friends. Dessert on Christmas Day is a Yule Log that I get better at making every year.


You, too, a secretary, nurse, or teacher. I guess that's why the women's movement didn't get moving until the 70s. Everyone was too busy being secretaries etc. They couldn't tell me that because at the time I was seen as a mathematical genius (this did not last through graduate school) and so I was actually encouraged to go to college, probably to become a high school math teacher. The New York City public college system was an excellent one, and tuition was free (we paid a $24 student activity fee per semester, and we had to buy our own books). Brooklyn College was where I saw that women could do all the important things that men did, so naturally I majored in English and did proofreading/editorial work after that. I think that was the last thing I did that I was really good at.

I remember one job interview I had after college, at Esquire Magazine. The interviewer was either David Newman or Robert Benton; I don't remember which, just that he was gorgeous - these two wrote the screenplay for Bonnie and Clyde a few years later. He told me all women at Esquire started out in the typing pool, and some got promoted to real editing. They never offered me the job, and I don't think I would have taken it.


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## Poor Purl

DGreen said:


> I sometimes think women of our generation knit, quilt, paint...create, because our dreams were stifled and we need an outlet for the potential that was suppressed.
> 
> My family story is straight out of "The Grapes of Wrath." My parents met at a migrant camp in California when my mothers family passed through, picking fruit. My father's family had traveled west from Oklahoma during the depression, making their way to the "promised land" as part of a caravan from their little town. My parents were married at 16 and the early years were rough. We never had much money and my father had a gypsy soul so we moved all the time - I went to 14 different schools by the time I graduated from high school. I was expected to learn all the domestic skills and I excelled at cooking, sewing and crafting, all of which came from my paternal grandmother because my mother couldn't be bothered. She liked fast cars and gambling and often said "I'm not afraid of hard work - I'll lie down right next to it and go to sleep." True story.
> 
> I took over cooking and housekeeping when I was about 12 years old. Self defense. Mom was a terrible cook and hated housework. It was a given that I would find a husband and settle down and when I married at 16 (a very stupid family tradition) not one person in my family suggested I continue my education or offered any guidance in any other direction. At the time, my father was working at Stanford University and I could have attended STANFORD on a tuition waiver. I had the academic chops to do it, too. Finished high school and went to work to put hubby through school, but he was a slug and an abuser and I always had to work. Always. Secretarial, office manager, payroll, HR, always dead-end jobs due to my lack of education. Took classes when I was older, but never able to string much together because of the demands of work, family and the incredible energy it took to survive the abuse. Crafting was a lifeline for me in so many ways.


You win a prize for real American background. Too bad it got you down, but you know that living well is the best revenge.

My crafting came about because it was the only way I could impress my mother. She was a knitter and a sew-er. I was the middle child, between a beloved daughter who had been an only child for 6-1/2 years and an adored son, the baby, 3 years younger than me. I was the one who got ignored or fobbed off on my sister. So to get mom's attention I watched her knit and imitated her. I was always the one who held the skeins of yarn when she wanted to roll them in a ball. She never taught me to cook or what sex was about, but I did become a knitter.


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## jbandsma

Poor Purl said:


> You win a prize for real American background. Too bad it got you down, but you know that living well is the best revenge.
> 
> My crafting came about because it was the only way I could impress my mother. She was a knitter and a sew-er. I was the middle child, between a beloved daughter who had been an only child for 6-1/2 years and an adored son, the baby, 3 years younger than me. I was the one who got ignored or fobbed off on my sister. So to get mom's attention I watched her knit and imitated her. I was always the one who held the skeins of yarn when she wanted to roll them in a ball. She never taught me to cook or what sex was about, but I did become a knitter.


I think maybe that was a better lesson to learn.


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## DGreen

Poor Purl said:


> You win a prize for real American background. Too bad it got you down, but you know that living well is the best revenge.
> 
> My crafting came about because it was the only way I could impress my mother. She was a knitter and a sew-er. I was the middle child, between a beloved daughter who had been an only child for 6-1/2 years and an adored son, the baby, 3 years younger than me. I was the one who got ignored or fobbed off on my sister. So to get mom's attention I watched her knit and imitated her. I was always the one who held the skeins of yarn when she wanted to roll them in a ball. She never taught me to cook or what sex was about, but I did become a knitter.


I'm a middle child, too. Older brother = male privilege in our family. Baby sister came along when I was 7. Middle children are often the responsible ones. Mom didn't teach me to cook; I had to follow grandmother's example with that as well as with crafts, and I learned most everything on my own because I'm left handed. Sex? My mother told me only one thing about that, which was "If he wants sex you have to give it to him."

The best revenge is living well, and I do that - in spades. Second husband is the finest man I've ever known and he makes me feel loved every day. I'm a lucky woman.


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## Poor Purl

MaidInBedlam said:


> I'm beginning to feel like a young thing here. I'm 65. Some mornings I wake up all bright and ready for anything and saying I'm only 65!! Others out on a lot of the 50s and 60s mornings I wake up with aches and pains from general wear and tear saying oh, no, I'm 65. Ugh! Still, I didn't miss out on the sexist education we girls got. I grew up in a university town, where there were a very distinct division between town and gown, and I was a townie. Yes, I see some cultural differences in our stories, but the theme of being raised to be a wife and mother, and/or to think that only certain jobs and careers were for women runs through it all. We had something called a track system in our junior highs and high school. One's general academic performance had a bit to do with it but sex, race and social class were way too important. The boys weren't left out either. My high school was rated one of the top three in the US for years. We had two swimming pools, a little theater and the largest theater in town that seats over 3,000. Building for that theater started just before WWII which my mother remembers well. It's still the largest theater in town and well-known for its acoustic wonderfulness.
> 
> In spite of being surrounded by the great minds and cultural influences attached to the university, there was still a separate and distinct town with neighborhoods formed by race and social class. Our elementary schools were neighborhood schools so all that stuff followed us from home to school and back again. My dad blue-collar intelligentsia as it would have been called then. Maybe I should call that track systemthe same old rut. Starting school meant being in a group that could easily be defined and taught in certain ways and that never stopped. It just became more obvious. High school had 4 tracks, white and affluent or very smart equals college bound, everybody else downhill from there. Mexican and black girls automatically went into the secretarial track, or domestic training so they cold learn to be good maids. Lots of boys went into carpentry or mechanics classes. Some kids ended up getting the second class academic classes. Those were home to the less competent teachers, too.
> 
> Some kids did leave school at 16, not in a formal way, but considered to be dropouts even though they did it because they had to work. And a lot of them turned the money they earned right over to Mom and Dad. The big difference for me is that my town was a hotbed of all kinds of activities associated with the 60s. Sometimes I think we invented protest movements and hippies. Well, all you have to do is look at any documentaries about the 60s any to see what I mean. It still makes me blush to see myself in the crowd scenes... But I'm also part of the 4th generation of my family in this town, a peculiar position all its own. My high school class has a Facebook page and we've been talking about how others saw our hometown and us as a result when we grew up and went out into the world.
> 
> Oh dear, that's enough nattering for now. This post seems t have rambled more than usual for me.


Never enough of your nattering, Maid. I'm upset that the same attitude I saw in the early 60s was still at work in your time. By then we had MS. Magazine and Betty Friedan and all sorts of pioneers, but they seem never to have traveled all the way to Berkeley (I think that's where you're from).

You broke my theory about us all coming from low economic status; I give up trying to construct a unified field theory for political leanings. You did manage to remain at school for a long time. Don't you have a doctorate in music? or something equally lovely?


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## Poor Purl

DGreen said:


> I'm a middle child, too. Older brother = male privilege in our family. Baby sister came along when I was 7. Middle children are often the responsible ones. Mom didn't teach me to cook; I had to follow grandmother's example with that as well as with crafts, and I learned most everything on my own because I'm left handed. Sex? My mother told me only one thing about that, which was "If he wants sex you have to give it to him."
> 
> The best revenge is living well, and I do that - in spades. Second husband is the finest man I've ever known and he makes me feel loved every day. I'm a lucky woman.


Well, you got practical advice from Mom, but you really are lucky in your husband.


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## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> I think maybe that was a better lesson to learn.


It lasted longer, anyway.


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## DGreen

Poor Purl said:


> Well, you got practical advice from Mom, but you really are lucky in your husband.


He's good looking, too, and very healthy aside from having profoundly poor vision and no sense of smell. And he's color blind. Other than that, he's PERFECT and has a 300-watt smile. Strong, healthy, trim and fit. A fine figure of a man.

As for Mom's advice, I've never pretended to have a headache. If not in the mood I just said "no." Not a problem with #1 - he was more interested in himself, if you know what I mean, and rarely wanted anything to do with me. A jerk in a lot of ways!


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## Poor Purl

Here's a song called Life Story, which I have loved for years. See if it's at all familiar; it's long but every word is worth hearing:






A longer video, but with live singing, is at


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## MaidInBedlam

Poor Purl said:


> Never enough of your nattering, Maid. I'm upset that the same attitude I saw in the early 60s was still at work in your time. By then we had MS. Magazine and Betty Friedan and all sorts of pioneers, but they seem never to have traveled all the way to Berkeley (I think that's where you're from).
> 
> You broke my theory about us all coming from low economic status; I give up trying to construct a unified field theory for political leanings. You did manage to remain at school for a long time. Don't you have a doctorate in music? or something equally lovely?


A lot of things made their way to Berkeley, or we started them and sent them out to the rest of the country. :twisted: In another life I am Dr. So-and-So who knows a thing or two about indigenous Protestant American religious music, yet some of our dearest Christian friends don't think I know beans about the theology behind them...


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## NJG

It is sometimes funny what memories come back to me while reading things posted by you ladies. Poor Purl talked about cleaning chickens reminded me of that. I grew up on a farm in Iowa and I use to clean chickens. My mother use to put quite a few in the freezer as we raised them on the farm. My sister and I use to hate to pick the feathers, so our parents did that part and we would take the insides out. We thought that was the better job. 

Growing up on the farm, my grandparents lived in the lower half of the house and we lived upstairs until my grandparents retired and moved to town and then we had the whole house. My Mother did work outside besides the house and I guess preferred outside as she was a poor housekeeper. I use to come home from school to a sink full of dirty dishes and had to do those before I could fix supper. My sister got to go outside and help, which I thought was unfair. I promised myself that I would never do that to my kids if I had any, and I didn't. They did have to work, but if there was a job they hated, I gave them something else to do and I did that hated job. I grew up in a family that showed no affection to each other. I still remember the first time I say my girlfriend from school get a hug from her mother before going to school and I was amazed that people did that and made the decision then that I would do that to my kids and I have. I married into a very hugging family. 

I graduated from high school in 1964 and college was never talked about. Graduating high school was the goal as neither of my parents had been able to do that. They both had to go to work. My Dad loved horses when he was a young man and wanted to move to Wyoming where he had a cousin living and work on a ranch. His parents said no as he had to stay home and take care of the farm. He had just one sister so the farm was his job. When my girls were young, I always talked about when you go to college, never if you go to college and I am happy to say they both did go. 

I was married in 1964,when I was 18 had one daughter when I was 22, was pregnant with my second one when my husband died in a car wreck in 1970, so things changed real fast. I had been working before I got pregnant so went back to work after my second one was born. Had a relationship with another wonder man in the late 90's. He died from cancer as a result of coming in contact with agent orange from the Vietnam war. 

Sometimes things don't work out the way you want but you deal with the hand you are given. I was very unhappy that I was pregnant the second time till I felt movement. I guess then it became real for me. Now that daughter is the one who has given me two beautiful grandchildren. Who could ask for more. Two daughters who are both good, honest people, a wonderful son in law and the grandchildren. And hey, retirements not bad either.


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## Poor Purl

MaidInBedlam said:


> A lot of things made their way to Berkeley, or we started them and sent them out to the rest of the country. :twisted: In another life I am Dr. So-and-So who knows a thing or two about indigenous Protestant American religious music, yet some of our dearest Christian friends don't think I know beans about the theology behind them...


Our dearest Christian friends tend to put down anyone who is not exactly like them in thought and deed. Since they have accomplished very little in life, they need to convince themselves that we have accomplished even less. Too bad.


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## DGreen

MaidInBedlam said:


> A lot of things made their way to Berkeley, or we started them and sent them out to the rest of the country. :twisted: In another life I am Dr. So-and-So who knows a thing or two about indigenous Protestant American religious music, yet some of our dearest Christian friends don't think I know beans about the theology behind them...


ROTFL

My father worked at Berkeley in the early 50's, then again in the late 50's after a stint at the Lawrence Livermore Labs - some top secret stuff. He was a master glassblower and worked on a project at Berkeley where they were trying to achieve absolute zero temperature. Hasn't Berkeley always been a hotbed of activism?

(Some people don't think I know about theology, either, because I'm atheist. Hmmph.)


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## jbandsma

MaidInBedlam said:


> A lot of things made their way to Berkeley, or we started them and sent them out to the rest of the country. :twisted: In another life I am Dr. So-and-So who knows a thing or two about indigenous Protestant American religious music, yet some of our dearest Christian friends don't think I know beans about the theology behind them...


I didn't spend much time in Berkeley...splitting my time between the City and Oakland...but I remember a yellow house there that had a boar's head over the porch. (I was there at the same time as People's Park) And no, I wasn't stoned at the time I saw it. 

As for your friends that don't think you know the theology of the music, they probably don't think you know much about anything if you aren't part of their particular flavor.


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## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> I didn't spend much time in Berkeley...splitting my time between the City and Oakland...but I remember a yellow house there that had a boar's head over the porch. (I was there at the same time as People's Park) And no, I wasn't stoned at the time I saw it.
> 
> As for your friends that don't think you know the theology of the music, they probably don't think you know much about anything if you aren't part of their particular flavor.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> ROTFL
> 
> (Some people don't think I know about theology, either, because I'm atheist. Hmmph.)


Did you ever see that survey that was done about who knew more about the bible? Guess who came in at number one?


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## MaidInBedlam

DGreen said:


> ROTFL
> 
> My father worked at Berkeley in the early 50's, then again in the late 50's after a stint at the Lawrence Livermore Labs - some top secret stuff. He was a master glassblower and worked on a project at Berkeley where they were trying to achieve absolute zero temperature. Hasn't Berkeley always been a hotbed of activism?
> 
> (Some people don't think I know about theology, either, because I'm atheist. Hmmph.)


Well, we did have Socialist mayor in 1911... Berkeley is an amazing pot full of all sorts of influences from the hugely international to the tiny idiosyncratic. It's all too true for me that you can't go home. The Berkeley that I think of as my hometown 
is mostly a memory.


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## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> Did you ever see that survey that was done about who knew more about the bible? Guess who came in at number one?


Yep. Atheists.

But then, I'm a reformed Baptist AND a reformed Catholic.


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## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> Yep. Atheists.
> 
> But then, I'm a reformed Baptist AND a reformed Catholic.


And now you're just reformed. :mrgreen:


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## NJG

DGreen said:


> I'm a middle child, too. Older brother = male privilege in our family. Baby sister came along when I was 7. Middle children are often the responsible ones. Mom didn't teach me to cook; I had to follow grandmother's example with that as well as with crafts, and I learned most everything on my own because I'm left handed. Sex? My mother told me only one thing about that, which was "If he wants sex you have to give it to him."
> 
> The best revenge is living well, and I do that - in spades. Second husband is the finest man I've ever known and he makes me feel loved every day. I'm a lucky woman.


I think male privilege was just the way things were. With my Dads family, I think it was more male responsibility than privilege. His sister was protected and he was told what to do. My mother had one sister and 3 brothers, one died just before going to the Korean war. My grandmother definitely thought her sons were way more special than her daughters, although when she needed care when she got older, it was my mother who did it. When my sister was married to an alcoholic, it was my mother who believed everything he said, and always criticized my sister and blamed her. I think Mom felt he was the son she never had and got stuck with two daughters instead. Oh the things you realize later in life when looking back. My sister and I have had some real good discussions about that period of time and what we now realize.


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## DGreen

NJG said:


> I think male privilege was just the way things were. With my Dads family, I think it was more male responsibility than privilege. His sister was protected and he was told what to do. My mother had one sister and 3 brothers, one died just before going to the Korean war. My grandmother definitely thought her sons were way more special than her daughters, although when she needed care when she got older, it was my mother who did it. When my sister was married to an alcoholic, it was my mother who believed everything he said, and always criticized my sister and blamed her. I think Mom felt he was the son she never had and got stuck with two daughters instead. Oh the things you realize later in life when looking back. My sister and I have had some real good discussions about that period of time and what we now realize.


Ah, yes. Looking back can be very interesting - especially when I compare notes with my brother, who became a wonderful man. I adore him in spite of the things he did to torture me when we were young. He's a stand-up guy and a wonderful husband and father.

The thing is, everyone had expectations for him and his future that included education and things like a real career. I was just expected to get married and be dependent on my husband. My parents jus sort of turned me over to my husband to take care of, but I ended up taking care of us both. As times changed and as women like me entered the work force, our lack of education and lack of expectations were both limiting.

My brother remembers a very warm relationship with my paternal grandfather AND grandmother. I, on the other hand, don't recall ever having a single conversation with my grandfather in my entire life. I was a girl and belonged in the kitchen - I didn't exist. Which was okay, because he was a mean, crusty old bastard and a bad alcoholic. He beat my grandmother and I witnessed him doing it because I spent a lot of time with them. When my own husband hit me, I remember being thankful that at least he didn't drink.... Now I realize that it might have been better if he did - as it was, he was cold sober when abused me. And he never passed out.


----------



## SQM

MaidInBedlam said:


> A lot of things made their way to Berkeley, or we started them and sent them out to the rest of the country. :twisted: In another life I am Dr. So-and-So who knows a thing or two about indigenous Protestant American religious music, yet some of our dearest Christian friends don't think I know beans about the theology behind them...


Piggyback Post

PP- Loved that song and so glad you outed Dr. Maid.

Dr. Maid: How modest you are! What an achievement. What is indigenous Protestant American religious music? Does "White Christmas" count?


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## SQM

Bright Green - I had a very abusive older bro - and now we are all very close. When I was 9, and the abuse became intense, my grades began to slip. Decades later my mom said how relieved she was to learn that I was not a genius. The MRS was her idea of a major accomplishment. Unfortunately she was born at a time when it was not considered right for a woman to work in our neighborhood, so she was a very creative and talented woman who had no outlets. In my day the clarion call was to be a teacher - with very few other realistic options. My dad was a drummer so his work life was always interesting. There was no encouragement in that household, yet older bro and I have 2 Masters and the Evil Republican Twin learned well how to make money on a BA. Ancient history with many of the players dead.


----------



## Designer1234

This is all so interesting. I am a lefty too, When I went to school they insisted we all become right handed. My stepmother (who I never thought of as step) went to the school and raised the roof. She said she would go to the paper and tell the world that left handed children were being abused in a way. Finally the school said okay, that I could stay left handed but I HAD to write as a right handed person, (in other words, hold my pen without leaning over and twisting the paper. I think that is why I have never had great writing skills. Most people of my generation are beautiful writers, not me. 

My mother died when I was 3 just after my little sister was born. Very upright Christian Baptists with absolutely no empathy for anyone who wasn't as religious as they were. Dad was an elder in the Church but a martinet at home. He was a hypocrite and I watched him while I was growing up - he was abusive and a woman chaser,and as he saw my mother every time he looked at me I was the verbally abused one. My younger sister was the apple of his eye. He married a very kind woman and she raised us. She was ahead of her time in many ways. She was the head nurse in the neo natal unit in a major hospital and I always felt she would have left if it hadn't been that us children needed her. 

The biggest, influence in my life was my Grandmother (nana)and she was a very devout Baptist who really lived a Christian life. So I saw two sides of Christianity. Nana had a love for all people. She said to me one day,

Belief is like a wheel. It doesn't matter which spoke you travel to reach the center. I always have believed that. 

She was religious but never was a bigot. I try to follow in her footsteps, and it is very irritating to those
Fundamentalists who have a narrow, rigid feeling about their religion. I try to live it but I don't feel I have to accept everything - people who are 'Christians' find my Christianity dreadful, but I would rather be me than them.

I learned to be a liberal watching the hypocracy in my family, and watching how badly women were treated. I was born in the 30's and it was like day and night as far as our lives lived were concerned, in comparison to now.

I am quite sure I would have left the Church if I hadn't had the influence of my Nana. She lived it, she didn't preach about it. I also have learned over a long lifetime that religion doesn't make you a good person. In some cases as we all know it makes you a narrow, rigid, unhappy person, who never opens their mind to the fact that good people are good people no matter who they are, or whether they 'believe' or not or whether they have no beliefs in that regard at all. That is why I would never have had an abortion but feel each woman should be allowed to make her own choice. They never see the difference.

On a lighter note - I was lucky to meet my husband and we fell in love at first sight, literally. He asked me or I am not sure but I might have asked him to marry me on a 
trolley in l955 the day after I met him when he had come back from serving in Korea shortly after that war, with the Nato peace keepers between the border. I flew down and married him after a 3 day waiting period. It was the best thing i have ever done in my life. We have had a lot of losses, and lots of difficulties but we are in it together. I know how fortunate I am. He is the reason that I have abilities which I have used, he loves everything I do and has backed me l00% in my art. When we moved here he took all the things I had made, and put away, around our apartment and remarks on them all the time. I never have had a word except encouragement. That is enough about me but hopefully these posts will help us all know each other. 

We started a wonderful discussion on Neutral Bridges yesterday so if you haven't - check it out.


----------



## NJG

DGreen said:


> Ah, yes. Looking back can be very interesting - especially when I compare notes with my brother, who became a wonderful man. I adore him in spite of the things he did to torture me when we were young. He's a stand-up guy and a wonderful husband and father.
> 
> The thing is, everyone had expectations for him and his future that included education and things like a real career. I was just expected to get married and be dependent on my husband. My parents jus sort of turned me over to my husband to take care of, but I ended up taking care of us both. As times changed and as women like me entered the work force, our lack of education and lack of expectations were both limiting.
> 
> My brother remembers a very warm relationship with my paternal grandfather AND grandmother. I, on the other hand, don't recall ever having a single conversation with my grandfather in my entire life. I was a girl and belonged in the kitchen - I didn't exist. Which was okay, because he was a mean, crusty old bastard and a bad alcoholic. He beat my grandmother and I witnessed him doing it because I spent a lot of time with them. When my own husband hit me, I remember being thankful that at least he didn't drink.... Now I realize that it might have been better if he did - as it was, he was cold sober when abused me. And he never passed out.


Thank God, I have never had to deal with any abuse like that, nor has anyone in my family. My sister, with her alcoholic husband, wasn't beat, but he pointed a gun at her one time when he was drunk and he was out the door that day and the locks were changed. God only knows what could have happened if she hadn't ended it. That which does not kill us makes us stronger.


----------



## Designer1234

DGreen said:


> If so, not by much. I'm only a couple of years younger than you, and judging from your photo, you look great.
> 
> I like to think we are "contemporaries." At this stage in life, who's counting?


I agree- if no one told their age from the beginning on KP This group would think we are all the same. It is when you open up and tell your story that we also realize many of our lives are parallel. Too bad we didn't realize that when we were living it and younger, and feeling as if we were the only ones who were abused, or were 'not as good'. It is fascinating. I think that that is the reason I loved arts and crafts so much - it opened doors to my feelings of inadequacy.


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> Thank God, I have never had to deal with any abuse like that, nor has anyone in my family. My sister, with her alcoholic husband, wasn't beat, but he pointed a gun at her one time when he was drunk and he was out the door that day and the locks were changed. God only knows what could have happened if she hadn't ended it. That which does not kill us makes us stronger.


Ex didn't use his hands often - only when I was trying to leave; either leave him or just leave the house because the verbal abuse was constant and intense. I know absolutely without question that he was capable of killing me and because he also stalked me, I was in danger no matter where I was. I'm the one who pulled out the gun once after a particularly long and brutal session of screaming, threats and insanity. I came very, very close to pulling the trigger.

How did I get out? For one thing, I pretty much stopped caring what he did to me because life was a living hell. My employer (very small) came into a massive windfall profit and because I was a major contributor to the project, they gave me a bonus of $300,000 - 1% of the $30 million I helped earn.

It bought my freedom and the ability to hide out long enough to stay safe. Am I still in touch with that employer? You bet. My gratitude for their generosity knows no bounds, since it could easily be argued that I was paid for my work. The bonus was pure, absolute generosity and appreciation and it changed my life.

Ex assaulted me 10 years after I left him - that's how sick and crazy he was. But he died a miserable and lonely man and I'm alive, happy and healthy. That's a very, very happy ending.


----------



## DGreen

Designer1234 said:


> This is all so interesting. I am a lefty too, When I went to school they insisted we all become right handed. My stepmother (who I never thought of as step) went to the school and raised the roof. She said she would go to the paper and tell the world that left handed children were being abused in a way. Finally the school said okay, that I could stay left handed but I HAD to write as a right handed person, (in other words, hold my pen without leaning over and twisting the paper. I think that is why I have never had great writing skills. Most people of my generation are beautiful writers, not me.
> 
> My mother died when I was 3 just after my little sister was born. Very upright Christian Baptists with absolutely no empathy for anyone who wasn't as religious as they were. Dad was an elder in the Church but a martinet at home. He was a hypocrite and I watched him while I was growing up - he was abusive and a woman chaser,and as he saw my mother every time he looked at me I was the verbally abused one. My younger sister was the apple of his eye. He married a very kind woman and she raised us. She was ahead of her time in many ways. She was the head nurse in the neo natal unit in a major hospital and I always felt she would have left if it hadn't been that us children needed her.
> 
> The biggest, influence in my life was my Grandmother (nana)and she was a very devout Baptist who really lived a Christian life. So I saw two sides of Christianity. Nana had a love for all people. She said to me one day,
> 
> Belief is like a wheel. It doesn't matter which spoke you travel to reach the center. I always have believed that.
> 
> She was religious but never was a bigot. I try to follow in her footsteps, and it is very irritating to those
> Fundamentalists who have a narrow, rigid feeling about their religion. I try to live it but I don't feel I have to accept everything - people who are 'Christians' find my Christianity dreadful, but I would rather be me than them.
> 
> I learned to be a liberal watching the hypocracy in my family, and watching how badly women were treated. I was born in the 30's and it was like day and night as far as our lives lived were concerned, in comparison to now.
> 
> I am quite sure I would have left the Church if I hadn't had the influence of my Nana. She lived it, she didn't preach about it. I also have learned over a long lifetime that religion doesn't make you a good person. In some cases as we all know it makes you a narrow, rigid, unhappy person, who never opens their mind to the fact that good people are good people no matter who they are, or whether they 'believe' or not or whether they have no beliefs in that regard at all. That is why I would never have had an abortion but feel each woman should be allowed to make her own choice. They never see the difference.
> 
> On a lighter note - I was lucky to meet my husband and we fell in love at first sight, literally. He asked me or I am not sure but I might have asked him to marry me on a
> trolley in l955 the day after I met him when he had come back from serving in Korea shortly after that war, with the Nato peace keepers between the border. I flew down and married him after a 3 day waiting period. It was the best thing i have ever done in my life. We have had a lot of losses, and lots of difficulties but we are in it together. I know how fortunate I am. He is the reason that I have abilities which I have used, he loves everything I do and has backed me l00% in my art. When we moved here he took all the things I had made, and put away, around our apartment and remarks on them all the time. I never have had a word except encouragement. That is enough about me but hopefully these posts will help us all know each other.
> 
> We started a wonderful discussion on Neutral Bridges yesterday so if you haven't - check it out.


Whenever I started a new school, my father would visit the teacher and make it crystal clear that I was to be "left" alone. Consequently, I write normally - sort of a mirror image of a rightie. Too bad he had to do it so often.

I'm so glad your step was a kind woman. Regards your father, I'm reminded of the saying that good people do bad things and bad people do bad things - but it takes religion to make good people do REALLY bad things.


----------



## DGreen

SQM said:


> Bright Green - I had a very abusive older bro - and now we are all very close. When I was 9, and the abuse became intense, my grades began to slip. Decades later my mom said how relieved she was to learn that I was not a genius. The MRS was her idea of a major accomplishment. Unfortunately she was born at a time when it was not considered right for a woman to work in our neighborhood, so she was a very creative and talented woman who had no outlets. In my day the clarion call was to be a teacher - with very few other realistic options. My dad was a drummer so his work life was always interesting. There was no encouragement in that household, yet older bro and I have 2 Masters and the Evil Republican Twin learned well how to make money on a BA. Ancient history with many of the players dead.


Which goes to show that many things influence our paths in life and sometimes those with the greatest obstacles achieve the most wonderful things. You just never know.


----------



## Poor Purl

NJG said:


> It is sometimes funny what memories come back to me while reading things posted by you ladies. Poor Purl talked about cleaning chickens reminded me of that. I grew up on a farm in Iowa and I use to clean chickens. My mother use to put quite a few in the freezer as we raised them on the farm. My sister and I use to hate to pick the feathers, so our parents did that part and we would take the insides out. We thought that was the better job.
> 
> Growing up on the farm, my grandparents lived in the lower half of the house and we lived upstairs until my grandparents retired and moved to town and then we had the whole house. My Mother did work outside besides the house and I guess preferred outside as she was a poor housekeeper. I use to come home from school to a sink full of dirty dishes and had to do those before I could fix supper. My sister got to go outside and help, which I thought was unfair. I promised myself that I would never do that to my kids if I had any, and I didn't. They did have to work, but if there was a job they hated, I gave them something else to do and I did that hated job. I grew up in a family that showed no affection to each other. I still remember the first time I say my girlfriend from school get a hug from her mother before going to school and I was amazed that people did that and made the decision then that I would do that to my kids and I have. I married into a very hugging family.
> 
> I graduated from high school in 1964 and college was never talked about. Graduating high school was the goal as neither of my parents had been able to do that. They both had to go to work. My Dad loved horses when he was a young man and wanted to move to Wyoming where he had a cousin living and work on a ranch. His parents said no as he had to stay home and take care of the farm. He had just one sister so the farm was his job. When my girls were young, I always talked about when you go to college, never if you go to college and I am happy to say they both did go.
> 
> I was married in 1964,when I was 18 had one daughter when I was 22, was pregnant with my second one when my husband died in a car wreck in 1970, so things changed real fast. I had been working before I got pregnant so went back to work after my second one was born. Had a relationship with another wonder man in the late 90's. He died from cancer as a result of coming in contact with agent orange from the Vietnam war.
> 
> Sometimes things don't work out the way you want but you deal with the hand you are given. I was very unhappy that I was pregnant the second time till I felt movement. I guess then it became real for me. Now that daughter is the one who has given me two beautiful grandchildren. Who could ask for more. Two daughters who are both good, honest people, a wonderful son in law and the grandchildren. And hey, retirements not bad either.


You certainly had it rough, not only being raised female in the fifties and sixties but also being widowed at such an early age. And farming is never easy for real farmers (as opposed to industrial ones).

Thank you for adding to what is turning out to be a very varied set of stories.


----------



## MarilynKnits

DGreen said:


> Yep. Atheists.
> 
> But then, I'm a reformed Baptist AND a reformed Catholic.


Of course Atheists! Atheists have to know so they can refute the stories knowledgeably. Sometimes when you are born into a religion you just take it for granted and don't pay attention to the details. Especially if you come from a family of casual observers who don't seem to take it all seriously.


----------



## DGreen

MarilynKnits said:


> Of course Atheists! Atheists have to know so they can refute the stories knowledgeably. Sometimes when you are born into a religion you just take it for granted and don't pay attention to the details. Especially if you come from a family of casual observers who don't seem to take it all seriously.


Right you are. My path to atheism was one of deep introspection and soul-searching. Too many people give little thought to such things.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

jbandsma said:


> I didn't spend much time in Berkeley...splitting my time between the City and Oakland...but I remember a yellow house there that had a boar's head over the porch. (I was there at the same time as People's Park) And no, I wasn't stoned at the time I saw it.
> 
> As for your friends that don't think you know the theology of the music, they probably don't think you know much about anything if you aren't part of their particular flavor.


I know the house of which you speak. No, you weren't hallucinating. People's Park is what drove me and a lot of friends to leave Berkeley. We are sure it's never been the same since...


----------



## NJG

Designer1234 said:


> I agree- if no one told their age from the beginning on KP This group would think we are all the same. It is when you open up and tell your story that we also realize many of our lives are parallel. Too bad we didn't realize that when we were living it and younger, and feeling as if we were the only ones who were abused, or were 'not as good'. It is fascinating. I think that that is the reason I loved arts and crafts so much - it opened doors to my feelings of inadequacy.


Yes it is a wonderful feeling to make something for someone and it is appreciated and loved, or when someone asks you to make something for them, because they love what you have done.

My kids roped me into so many thing when they were in school because they always said, "My Mom can make it." Bless their hearts!


----------



## NJG

DGreen said:


> Ex didn't use his hands often - only when I was trying to leave; either leave him or just leave the house because the verbal abuse was constant and intense. I know absolutely without question that he was capable of killing me and because he also stalked me, I was in danger no matter where I was. I'm the one who pulled out the gun once after a particularly long and brutal session of screaming, threats and insanity. I came very, very close to pulling the trigger.
> 
> How did I get out? For one thing, I pretty much stopped caring what he did to me because life was a living hell. My employer (very small) came into a massive windfall profit and because I was a major contributor to the project, they gave me a bonus of $300,000 - 1% of the $30 million I helped earn.
> 
> It bought my freedom and the ability to hide out long enough to stay safe. Am I still in touch with that employer? You bet. My gratitude for their generosity knows no bounds, since it could easily be argued that I was paid for my work. The bonus was pure, absolute generosity and appreciation and it changed my life.
> 
> Ex assaulted me 10 years after I left him - that's how sick and crazy he was. But he died a miserable and lonely man and I'm alive, happy and healthy. That's a very, very happy ending.


Yes, it is. He got some of his just desserts because of the way he died, but I am sure he deserved more. My sisters husband died as a drunk with nothing, from a heart attack. He had two more wives after my sister, lived in another state and they never even knew he had kids. He had 3 he just walked away from, although they were better off without him in their lives.


----------



## Designer1234

NJG said:


> Yes it is a wonderful feeling to make something for someone and it is appreciated and loved, or when someone asks you to make something for them, because they love what you have done.
> 
> My kids roped me into so many thing when they were in school because they always said, "My Mom can make it." Bless their hearts!


Nothing is more satisfying although both my boys were so used to seeing me 'make things' they weren't that impressed until their friends visited and like a project, or I sold a qullt at an auction for Breast cancer for 4200.00 and Dad showed them the check. Kelly's eyes just about popped out of his head. Lisa (daughter) was more inclined to understand my drive as, even though she was adopted she was a very very talented artist. interesting. (by the way - that kind of money was at a quilt auction and they were very popular each year as they were so different. I would never have been able to sell it for that much in a million years. One person bought 3 of them at auction, which meant that if more than one person liked them the price went up, over the l2 years they were put in the auction. Lots of satisfaction, as we never had the money to donate that much. It was very satisfying.


----------



## Designer1234

NJG said:


> Yes, it is. He got some of his just desserts because of the way he died, but I am sure he deserved more. My sisters husband died as a drunk with nothing, from a heart attack. He had two more wives after my sister, lived in another state and they never even knew he had kids. He had 3 he just walked away from, although they were better off without him in their lives.


so sad for women to be treated so dreadfully. My heart aches for anyone in that position, especially if he has control of the money and there are children to protect.


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## Camacho

I feel like a baby around you all. I just turned 61 at the end of October. When I was three I wanted to be a man when I grew up because men could have jobs and families both, and men's clothes had pockets. All a woman could do was be a mommy or teach or be a secretary or be a nurse. And I had heard by the time I was three the line that the way to a man's heart is through his stomach, and I believed that my heart was in my tummy. By the time I got to high school there was no question that a whole lot of us were going to go to college, and become other things as well as teachers, secretaries, or nurses, or stay-at-home mommies. After graduate school in math and a semester of teaching not as a TA, I ended up going the stay-at-home mommy route after all, but I did homeschool my third child from third grade on, and my second one for high school, and am now a Christian Science practitioner. And many of my clothes have pockets anyway, mostly because I designed them and my sister made them. But I just barely predate Title IX. It wouldn't have affected me anyway because I was so thoroughly slow and uncoordinated in anything physical that sports were completely out of the picture for me. I flunked junior high sewing, got passing grades in phys. ed. only for effort, and was the kid in the Girl Scout troop who always lagged behind everyone else on hikes, and there was always someone running back to help or cheer me over all the rocks and roots and fallen tree parts that everyone else just stepped or scrambled right over but I had tons of trouble with, and all the other girls rushed to do my chores for me. Some of my high school teachers tried to talk me into joining the chess club but my mother wouldn't allow it. 
My father said he sent my mother the money for my first accordion but my mother took all the credit. They were too much like each other for their relationship to be anything but explosive, except my mother got to keep my sister and me, and she ended up nuts, whereas my father had the support of his many sisters and brothers and his mother, and was a founder and the first director of a college when my mother had always said that he was not academically oriented. He was brilliant. She was bright, too, but she got waylaid by the sexism of her day, shall we say. She told me a lot of lies about him that I did not learn the truth of until after she died. Had she told me what was true I might have tried to meet him sooner, and she was very afraid of that possibility. He might have kept me and my sister with him, and my mother was willing to do anything to ensure that my sister and I would stay in the States rather than grow up in Ecuador.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

Camacho said:


> I feel like a baby around you all. I just turned 61 at the end of October. When I was three I wanted to be a man when I grew up because men could have jobs and families both, and men's clothes had pockets. All a woman could do was be a mommy or teach or be a secretary or be a nurse. And I had heard by the time I was three the line that the way to a man's heart is through his stomach, and I believed that my heart was in my tummy. By the time I got to high school there was no question that a whole lot of us were going to go to college, and become other things as well as teachers, secretaries, or nurses, or stay-at-home mommies. After graduate school in math and a semester of teaching not as a TA, I ended up going the stay-at-home mommy route after all, but I did homeschool my third child from third grade on, and my second one for high school, and am now a Christian Science practitioner. And many of my clothes have pockets anyway, mostly because I designed them and my sister made them. But I just barely predate Title IX. It wouldn't have affected me anyway because I was so thoroughly slow and uncoordinated in anything physical that sports were completely out of the picture for me. I flunked junior high sewing, got passing grades in phys. ed. only for effort, and was the kid in the Girl Scout troop who always lagged behind everyone else on hikes, and there was always someone running back to help or cheer me over all the rocks and roots and fallen tree parts that everyone else just stepped or scrambled right over but I had tons of trouble with, and all the other girls rushed to do my chores for me. Some of my high school teachers tried to talk me into joining the chess club but my mother wouldn't allow it.
> My father said he sent my mother the money for my first accordion but my mother took all the credit. They were too much like each other for their relationship to be anything but explosive, except my mother got to keep my sister and me, and she ended up nuts, whereas my father had the support of his many sisters and brothers and his mother, and was a founder and the first director of a college when my mother had always said that he was not academically oriented. He was brilliant. She was bright, too, but she got waylaid by the sexism of her day, shall we say. She told me a lot of lies about him that I did not learn the truth of until after she died. Had she told me what was true I might have tried to meet him sooner, and she was very afraid of that possibility. He might have kept me and my sister with him, and my mother was willing to do anything to ensure that my sister and I would stay in the States rather than grow up in Ecuador.


Ah, junior high sewing. We had to make an a-line skirt. I am sewing machine disabled and it's never safe to let me use one. Our sewing teacher was a big, fat lady. One of the things she talked about was how to enhance or take attention away from various aspects of our figures. There she was one day telling us not to use material with large patterns and she was wearing a dress with a flowered pattern featuring flowers about the size of dinner plates. A friend and I were walking down the hall later in the day imitating her and laughing our heads off when I felt a hand on my shoulder. Sure enough she was behind us and heard every word. We both broke all speed records running away from her.


----------



## Poor Purl

Camacho said:


> I feel like a baby around you all. I just turned 61 at the end of October. When I was three I wanted to be a man when I grew up because men could have jobs and families both, and men's clothes had pockets. All a woman could do was be a mommy or teach or be a secretary or be a nurse. And I had heard by the time I was three the line that the way to a man's heart is through his stomach, and I believed that my heart was in my tummy. By the time I got to high school there was no question that a whole lot of us were going to go to college, and become other things as well as teachers, secretaries, or nurses, or stay-at-home mommies. After graduate school in math and a semester of teaching not as a TA, I ended up going the stay-at-home mommy route after all, but I did homeschool my third child from third grade on, and my second one for high school, and am now a Christian Science practitioner. And many of my clothes have pockets anyway, mostly because I designed them and my sister made them. But I just barely predate Title IX. It wouldn't have affected me anyway because I was so thoroughly slow and uncoordinated in anything physical that sports were completely out of the picture for me. I flunked junior high sewing, got passing grades in phys. ed. only for effort, and was the kid in the Girl Scout troop who always lagged behind everyone else on hikes, and there was always someone running back to help or cheer me over all the rocks and roots and fallen tree parts that everyone else just stepped or scrambled right over but I had tons of trouble with, and all the other girls rushed to do my chores for me. Some of my high school teachers tried to talk me into joining the chess club but my mother wouldn't allow it.
> My father said he sent my mother the money for my first accordion but my mother took all the credit. They were too much like each other for their relationship to be anything but explosive, except my mother got to keep my sister and me, and she ended up nuts, whereas my father had the support of his many sisters and brothers and his mother, and was a founder and the first director of a college when my mother had always said that he was not academically oriented. He was brilliant. She was bright, too, but she got waylaid by the sexism of her day, shall we say. She told me a lot of lies about him that I did not learn the truth of until after she died. Had she told me what was true I might have tried to meet him sooner, and she was very afraid of that possibility. He might have kept me and my sister with him, and my mother was willing to do anything to ensure that my sister and I would stay in the States rather than grow up in Ecuador.


Sorry, Camacho, you're not the youngest, though you certainly are a baby. Also, it sounds as though you - like many of us - were a klutz.

But here you are with another example of how our mothers' upbringing got in the way of their living complete lives. At least yours didn't force you not to go to college, as some parents did. But in her bitterness your mom went so far as to create a whole different father, one that you wouldn't want to be with. How sad.


----------



## Camacho

Oh goody. I'm glad I'm not the youngest.

Maid, your story about the home ec. teacher got me laughing. I could just see the big woman wearing the enormous flowered dress. Great!


----------



## BrattyPatty

Camacho said:


> Oh goody. I'm glad I'm not the youngest.
> 
> Maid, your story about the home ec. teacher got me laughing. I could just see the big woman wearing the enormous flowered dress. Great!


Hey, what's wrong with being the youngest?????


----------



## SQM

camacho and pp - there is a thread about Vogue Market Place . People on KP are planning on meeting at a table. Check out.


----------



## Poor Purl

SQM said:


> camacho and pp - there is a thread about Vogue Market Place . People on KP are planning on meeting at a table. Check out.


It costs money to get into the marketplace unless you've paid for classes or something. But is anyone familiar going? Camacho, you should look, too.

http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-306865-1.html#6551142


----------



## Camacho

BrattyPatty said:


> Hey, what's wrong with being the youngest?????


Nothing at all is wrong with being the youngest. But I was the youngest in my family, and from fourth grade on I was the youngest in my class, and may have been the youngest in the class before fourth grade as well, and as an adult a lot of people have assumed when they met me that I was younger than they were, and I was not, but it has not prevented them from talking to me as if I were. And I am the youngest of my generation in my husband's family, too. (Counting him and his brother and his brother's wife.) Sometimes this can be good, but not always. And since I somehow have gotten to my sixties, I am glad that there are people who are younger than I am who are on here. While I was on the board of my local chapter of the League of Women Voters it got pretty depressing sometimes to be the youngest person in the room.


----------



## cookiequeen

Poor Purl said:


> Sorry, Camacho, you're not the youngest, though you certainly are a baby. Also, it sounds as though you - like many of us - were a klutz.
> 
> But here you are with another example of how our mothers' upbringing got in the way of their living complete lives. At least yours didn't force you not to go to college, as some parents did. But in her bitterness your mom went so far as to create a whole different father, one that you wouldn't want to be with. How sad.


Hey, just a minute. I was a cheerleader in high school. I couldn't have been too klutzy! Of course it was a small school. During the half of any sport at school, I had to grab my clarinet and play with the band, then run back to the floor or field for my cheerleading stint.


----------



## SQM

cookiequeen said:


> Hey, just a minute. I was a cheerleader in high school. I couldn't have been too klutzy! Of course it was a small school. During the half of any sport at school, I had to grab my clarinet and play with the band, then run back to the floor or field for my cheerleading stint.


Well Well Well. My favourite Big Nose is back. How are you doing? I wasn't a klutz either. But there were no sports for girls in my day so I was stuck. Remember the 3 step basket ball games? The gym teachers were afraid our wombs would drop. (onto the gym floor?)


----------



## Poor Purl

cookiequeen said:


> Hey, just a minute. I was a cheerleader in high school. I couldn't have been too klutzy! Of course it was a small school. During the half of any sport at school, I had to grab my clarinet and play with the band, then run back to the floor or field for my cheerleading stint.


I didn't call you klutzy, just "many of us." You, being unique, are not among the many.

Clarinet _and_ cheerleading? You must have been adorable. Did you twirl your clarinet as if it were a baton?


----------



## Poor Purl

SQM said:


> Well Well Well. My favourite Big Nose is back. How are you doing? I wasn't a klutz either. But there were no sports for girls in my day so I was stuck. Remember the 3 step basket ball games? The gym teachers were afraid our wombs would drop. (onto the gym floor?)


Your favorite WHAT????

In my school, folk-dancing was the most physical we ever got.


----------



## cookiequeen

Poor Purl said:


> I didn't call you klutzy, just "many of us." You, being unique, are not among the many.
> 
> Clarinet _and_ cheerleading? You must have been adorable. Did you twirl your clarinet as if it were a baton?


When I was in elementary school I also twirled and one year even led the 4th of July parade. My fondest memories of school, though, were being in all the school plays. I don't think I missed one from 8th grade and up. I always wanted to be an actress. But who did that? I even did a little in college, but one has to earn a living.
And now I Have a confession: I still haven't gotten around to making one little latke! I've been too busy, I guess, so after Christmas when all the festivities have died down, I AM going to make latkes. Today I made biscotti. How can someone with a name like Ayelet not make latkes?


----------



## cookiequeen

Poor Purl said:


> Your favorite WHAT????
> 
> In my school, folk-dancing was the most physical we ever got.


I think she's talking about Lucy.


----------



## SQM

cookiequeen said:


> I think she's talking about Lucy.


I trust Big Nose is named Lucy??????

I just had to frog. Yah lah lah. Hebrew for Boo hoo. This is for CQ.


----------



## cookiequeen

SQM said:


> I trust Big Nose is named Lucy??????
> 
> I just had to frog. Yah lah lah. Hebrew for Boo hoo. This is for CQ.


Oh, I didn't know there was a Hebrew word for boo hoo. Is it really Hebrew or is that Yiddish?

SQM, I love your festive sloth avatar.


----------



## cookiequeen

It was nice talking to you, but doggies have to eat. I wanted you to know that I just found out that Chabad has come to my city. We have a "regular" synagogue (that I have actually been to) but from what I know, I think these will be more orthodox or Hassidic even? I'm going to look them up online to see what I can learn. I can go to them and say "shalom" and "yah lah lah. It is spritzing today. Or schvitzing? Or something. They'll say, oy vey gevalt. Where did this one come from?


----------



## MarilynKnits

Poor Purl said:


> Your favorite WHAT????
> 
> In my school, folk-dancing was the most physical we ever got.


In my high school we did social dancing and square dancing in gym every once in a while. We did basketball, the old fashioned girl style, which was very boring. And the teacher favored the athletic girls to a point where the rest of us stood around and watched them play. We did "tumbling" which was great for the flexible kids, but I had trouble doing forward rolls. We played soft ball outside in the school field, and then we had to run around the block - it seemed forever. Gym was the only high school class where I didn't get an A. And we had these gym suits that looked like maroon gunny sacks tied in the middle with a ratty belt. We had to shoot a free throw before we were allowed to go take our shower. I practiced at the park until I was able to make the first or second shot I tried. Blew the woman's mind. Too bad. As an adult I became, of all things, a gym rat. For years I did aerobic classes and weights. Now I do lighter weights and non weight bearing stuff like the stationary bike. My doctor is proud of me. Without the task master yelling, I can enjoy exercises.


----------



## MarilynKnits

cookiequeen said:


> It was nice talking to you, but doggies have to eat. I wanted you to know that I just found out that Chabad has come to my city. We have a "regular" synagogue (that I have actually been to) but from what I know, I think these will be more orthodox or Hassidic even? I'm going to look them up online to see what I can learn. I can go to them and say "shalom" and "yah lah lah. It is spritzing today. Or schvitzing? Or something. They'll say, oy vey gevalt. Where did this one come from?


Chabad is very Orthodox. It is Lubavitcher. The one near us, they daven like the wind and try to figure out where they are in the book, much less keep up. Went to a couple of bar mitzvahs there and it was interesting. Separate seating with a mehitza, women are expected to wear skirts and hats, but they don't kick you out if you wear slacks and no hat.

I lean toward modern orthodox or non egalitarian conservative; I just feel comfortable in that sort of environment. But it evolving to either very egalitarian or very orthodox in our neck of the woods, so I don't go.


----------



## SQM

cookiequeen said:


> Oh, I didn't know there was a Hebrew word for boo hoo. Is it really Hebrew or is that Yiddish?
> 
> SQM, I love your festive sloth avatar.


Hebrew straight from the mouth of a Sabre.

I decided I need a new look. I hope there are sloths for all the holidays. I love Big Nose Lucy.

What will you be doing for Xmas. A New York Xmas for Jews is Chinese and a movie. Going to see "Into the Woods" with my "set".


----------



## SQM

cookiequeen said:


> It was nice talking to you, but doggies have to eat. I wanted you to know that I just found out that Chabad has come to my city. We have a "regular" synagogue (that I have actually been to) but from what I know, I think these will be more orthodox or Hassidic even? I'm going to look them up online to see what I can learn. I can go to them and say "shalom" and "yah lah lah. It is spritzing today. Or schvitzing? Or something. They'll say, oy vey gevalt. Where did this one come from?


Definitely say all those expressions when you go. I wish I could be a fly on the wall when you do.


----------



## cookiequeen

MarilynKnits said:


> Chabad is very Orthodox. It is Lubavitcher. The one near us, they daven like the wind and try to figure out where they are in the book, much less keep up. Went to a couple of bar mitzvahs there and it was interesting. Separate seating with a mehitza, women are expected to wear skirts and hats, but they don't kick you out if you wear slacks and no hat.
> 
> I lean toward modern orthodox or non egalitarian conservative; I just feel comfortable in that sort of environment. But it evolving to either very egalitarian or very orthodox in our neck of the woods, so I don't go.


Oy, vey. Lots for me to look up. It's all very interesting to me. Remember when there was no internet and we had to go to the library?


----------



## cookiequeen

SQM said:


> Hebrew straight from the mouth of a Sabre.
> 
> I decided I need a new look. I hope there are sloths for all the holidays. I love Big Nose Lucy.
> 
> What will you be doing for Xmas. A New York Xmas for Jews is Chinese and a movie. Going to see "Into the Woods" with my "set".


We are having dinner on Christmas Day at our house with just 10 people. The group got too big this year, so we split it up. We're all gathering after dinner for dessert. I've decided that since I'm "of an age" I'm not going to be responsible for big big dinners.


----------



## Poor Purl

cookiequeen said:


> When I was in elementary school I also twirled and one year even led the 4th of July parade. My fondest memories of school, though, were being in all the school plays. I don't think I missed one from 8th grade and up. I always wanted to be an actress. But who did that? I even did a little in college, but one has to earn a living.
> And now I Have a confession: I still haven't gotten around to making one little latke! I've been too busy, I guess, so after Christmas when all the festivities have died down, I AM going to make latkes. Today I made biscotti. How can someone with a name like Ayelet not make latkes?


Beats me. I have a confession, too: I once made the typo "Great Latkes" when writing about the Great Lakes. Shows where my head was at.

Biscotti is also a Jewish food, though we call in mandelbrot (almond "bread"). Yum.

I'm sure you were a wonderful actress, and now you could play the parts that Molly Picon used to play.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> I didn't call you klutzy, just "many of us." You, being unique, are not among the many.
> 
> Clarinet _and_ cheerleading? You must have been adorable. Did you twirl your clarinet as if it were a baton?


Maybe not many? I competed in gymnastics and track. I also played volleyball and softball.


----------



## Camacho

I just clicked on the link. There seem to be a lot of people going, mostly on Saturday or Sunday. How much does it cost, anyway? We are all intelligent, imaginative people here so we can figure out the best use of our time and money. I would love to meet KPers since I have never met any in person, but the most important ones for me to meet first are those whom I have met and become acquainted with on these few threads that I actually follow. (LOLL, NB, I first met many of you on WOW, some people have answered the very few questions I have asked, I followed a thread that peacegoddess had begun on outrageous acts for a while, and I read all the jokes and comics and other sillies and puzzles that come into my inbox in the morning, and share many of them with DH. And I have been on and off visiting KTP, which keeps disappearing on me.)


----------



## Camacho

Ayelet: I will let you get away without making latkes if you make doughnuts. Or anything else that is fried. (fried chicken, fried eggs, fried fish, fried meat, sweet potato fries? sautéed vegetables, ....yum ... and what about refried beans?) 

Kudos to Cookie Queen and Knitter from Nebraska for being so much the opposite of klutzy. Your feats were impressive. We are all unique and I love us all, and appreciate what each one is good at.


----------



## Poor Purl

cookiequeen said:


> It was nice talking to you, but doggies have to eat. I wanted you to know that I just found out that Chabad has come to my city. We have a "regular" synagogue (that I have actually been to) but from what I know, I think these will be more orthodox or Hassidic even? I'm going to look them up online to see what I can learn. I can go to them and say "shalom" and "yah lah lah. It is spritzing today. Or schvitzing? Or something. They'll say, oy vey gevalt. Where did this one come from?


Jews in America don't say shalom as a greeting, so please don't say it to them.

Chabad is maybe more orthodox but is out of the mainstream. For one thing, many believe that their last rabbi - who died ten or fifteen years ago - was the messiah. As he got deeper into dementia, he began to believe it, too. Nobody else does.

It's really late, and my cat is trying to get me into bed, so goodnight, Ayelet.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Camacho said:


> Ayelet: I will let you get away without making latkes if you make doughnuts. Or anything else that is fried. (fried chicken, fried eggs, fried fish, fried meat, sweet potato fries? sautéed vegetables, ....yum ... and what about refried beans?)
> 
> Kudos to Cookie Queen and Knitter from Nebraska for being so much the opposite of klutzy. Your feats were impressive. We are all unique and I love us all, and appreciate what each one is good at.


Thanks Camacho! But that was so looong ago, I can hardly remember.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

I won't be on much in the next week, if at all. So I'd like to wish all of my friends (whom I didn't catch on "things are heating up") a Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Season's Greetings and a Happy New Year (and anything else I missed)! I love you all! You've added much to my life! Thank You!


----------



## SQM

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I won't be on much in the next week, if at all. So I'd like to wish all of my friends (whom I didn't catch on "things are heating up") a Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Season's Greetings and a Happy New Year (and anything else I missed)! I love you all! You've added much to my life! Thank You!


Likewise to you and come back home soon!


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Maybe not many? I competed in gymnastics and track. I also played volleyball and softball.


Okay, then, maybe just one, but I'm not saying who.


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I won't be on much in the next week, if at all. So I'd like to wish all of my friends (whom I didn't catch on "things are heating up") a Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Season's Greetings and a Happy New Year (and anything else I missed)! I love you all! You've added much to my life! Thank You!


Other than "Festivus for the rest of us," I think you covered most of the ground. A Merry Christmas to you, DH (how has he been feeling lately?), and all the rest of your growing gang.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> Okay, then, maybe just one, but I'm not saying who.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Poor Purl said:


> Other than "Festivus for the rest of us," I think you covered most of the ground. A Merry Christmas to you, DH (how has he been feeling lately?), and all the rest of your growing gang.


Festivus? Is that a new one? I already wished Happy Hanukkah and know I missed Kwanzaa, but no one's said anything about that.

Thanks for your good wishes! DH has been battling gout since June, not to mention high blood pressure. They upped one of his meds, and he broke out in hives. It's also a very busy time for him, at work. So, he's been a little irritable lately. I'm hoping the family will be a distraction for him.


----------



## DGreen

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Festivus? Is that a new one? I already wished Happy Hanukkah and know I missed Kwanzaa, but no one's said anything about that.
> 
> Thanks for your wishes! DH has been battling gout since June, not to mention high blood pressure. They upped one of his meds, and he broke out in hives. It's also a very busy time for him, at work. So, he's been a little irritable lately. I'm hoping the family will be a distraction for him.


Aww. Gout is terribly painful. I hope he's better soon.

"Seinfeld" fans around the world gathered to air their grievances on Tuesday in celebration of Festivus, the holiday created by Frank Costanza on the popular '90s sitcom and has since become real annual tradition for thousands of people.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

DGreen said:


> Aww. Gout is terribly painful. I hope he's better soon.
> 
> "Seinfeld" fans around the world gathered to air their grievances on Tuesday in celebration of Festivus, the holiday created by Frank Costanza on the popular '90s sitcom and has since become real annual tradition for thousands of people.


Ah! Forgot about that.


----------



## MarilynKnits

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I won't be on much in the next week, if at all. So I'd like to wish all of my friends (whom I didn't catch on "things are heating up") a Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Season's Greetings and a Happy New Year (and anything else I missed)! I love you all! You've added much to my life! Thank You!


Warm wishes for a blessed Christmas for you and your family. I hope all your prayers are answered.


----------



## MarilynKnits

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Festivus? Is that a new one? I already wished Happy Hanukkah and know I missed Kwanzaa, but no one's said anything about that.
> 
> Thanks for your good wishes! DH has been battling gout since June, not to mention high blood pressure. They upped one of his meds, and he broke out in hives. It's also a very busy time for him, at work. So, he's been a little irritable lately. I'm hoping the family will be a distraction for him.


DH was told to drink dark cherry juice for gout. I was skeptical, but it worked for him. Apparently something in the juice breaks down the urea crystals.


----------



## DGreen

MarilynKnits said:


> DH was told to drink dark cherry juice for gout. I was skeptical, but it worked for him. Apparently something in the juice breaks down the urea crystals.


So much better than pharmaceuticals. So glad it worked.


----------



## Designer1234

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I won't be on much in the next week, if at all. So I'd like to wish all of my friends (whom I didn't catch on "things are heating up") a Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Season's Greetings and a Happy New Year (and anything else I missed)! I love you all! You've added much to my life! Thank You!


Same to you! You add to our life too. Have a wonderful Chistmas. we will see you when you get back. Merry Christmas to all!


----------



## DGreen

Designer1234 said:


> Same to you! You add to our life too. Have a wonderful Chistmas. we will see you when you get back. Merry Christmas to all!


Amazing work, Designer.


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Festivus? Is that a new one? I already wished Happy Hanukkah and know I missed Kwanzaa, but no one's said anything about that.
> 
> Thanks for your good wishes! DH has been battling gout since June, not to mention high blood pressure. They upped one of his meds, and he broke out in hives. It's also a very busy time for him, at work. So, he's been a little irritable lately. I'm hoping the family will be a distraction for him.


A little irritable? If I were going through what your husband has been suffering, I'd be a screaming lunatic.

Festivus is a holiday made up for the Seinfeld show. It's okay not to celebrate it. But it has its own website:
http://festivusweb.com/


----------



## Poor Purl

Designer1234 said:


> Same to you! You add to our life too. Have a wonderful Chistmas. we will see you when you get back. Merry Christmas to all!


Thanks for this picture, Designer. It's fun to see how you plan your work. Merry Christmas to you and your family.


----------



## Designer1234

BrattyPatty said:


> Hey, what's wrong with being the youngest?????


I wouldn't mind that, for a change!


----------



## Poor Purl

Designer1234 said:


> BrattyPatty said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, what's wrong with being the youngest?????
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't mind that, for a change!
Click to expand...

This was written about you, Shirley:


----------



## BrattyPatty

Hey ladies!
I will not see you for a few days. Just wanted to take the time to wish you Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanza, etc.
Hope this holiday season brings you peace, joy, and love.

Hugs!!!!


----------



## Poor Purl

BrattyPatty said:


> Hey ladies!
> I will not see you for a few days. Just wanted to take the time to wish you Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanza, etc.
> Hope this holiday season brings you peace, joy, and love.
> 
> Hugs!!!!


Back at you, Patty. Have a wonderful time and don't work too hard.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter

BrattyPatty said:


> Hey ladies!
> I will not see you for a few days. Just wanted to take the time to wish you Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanza, etc.
> Hope this holiday season brings you peace, joy, and love.
> 
> Hugs!!!!


Same to you Patty and all the rest of you lovely ladies! 
Hugs, Cheeky


----------



## SQM

Poor Purl said:


> This was written about you, Shirley:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perfect and beautiful.


----------



## SQM

BrattyPatty said:


> Hey ladies!
> I will not see you for a few days. Just wanted to take the time to wish you Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanza, etc.
> Hope this holiday season brings you peace, joy, and love.
> 
> Hugs!!!!


Enjoy this special time with your family. I am sure your get togethers are a riot.


----------



## Poor Purl

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Same to you Patty and all the rest of you lovely ladies!
> Hugs, Cheeky


Cheeky, have a wonderful holiday, whichever one you choose, and a new year full of everything good.


----------



## Poor Purl

SQM said:


> Perfect and beautiful.


Thank you.


----------



## Wombatnomore

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I won't be on much in the next week, if at all. So I'd like to wish all of my friends (whom I didn't catch on "things are heating up") a Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Season's Greetings and a Happy New Year (and anything else I missed)! I love you all! You've added much to my life! Thank You!


Same to you KFN. Wishing you a safe and peaceful 2015.


----------



## Wombatnomore

Designer1234 said:


> Same to you! You add to our life too. Have a wonderful Chistmas. we will see you when you get back. Merry Christmas to all!


The thread painting is impressive. How is it done Designer?


----------



## Wombatnomore

BrattyPatty said:


> Hey ladies!
> I will not see you for a few days. Just wanted to take the time to wish you Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanza, etc.
> Hope this holiday season brings you peace, joy, and love.
> 
> Hugs!!!!


Same to you Brat. Wishing you a safe and peaceful 2015.


----------



## Wombatnomore

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Same to you Patty and all the rest of you lovely ladies!
> Hugs, Cheeky


Wishing you a safe and peaceful 2015 Cheeky.


----------



## Wombatnomore

To all of the ladies, Happy Holidays and a safe and peaceful 2015 and beyond.


----------



## jbandsma

Happy Holidays.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> Happy Holidays.


ROFL

A kindred spirit!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

MarilynKnits said:


> Warm wishes for a blessed Christmas for you and your family. I hope all your prayers are answered.


Thanks so much, Marilyn!


----------



## MarilynKnits

BrattyPatty said:


> Hey ladies!
> I will not see you for a few days. Just wanted to take the time to wish you Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanza, etc.
> Hope this holiday season brings you peace, joy, and love.
> 
> Hugs!!!!


I wish you and your loved ones the joy and beauty of the season and a happy New Year.


----------



## DGreen

Merry Christmas!


----------



## MarilynKnits

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Same to you Patty and all the rest of you lovely ladies!
> Hugs, Cheeky


Have a lovely Christmas and a healthy happy New Year. Thank you for your kind wishes.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

MarilynKnits said:


> DH was told to drink dark cherry juice for gout. I was skeptical, but it worked for him. Apparently something in the juice breaks down the urea crystals.


DH drinks cherry juice everyday AND eats at least one can of dark cherries every day. But since his father died, he's been under too much physical and mental stress. Just can't knock it out. Cherries have always worked in the past, but not this time. He can't take allopuranol because it gives him kidney stones, but there is a new drug. You can't take the drug until the attack is over but we just can't get rid of the attack. He's hoping that his uric acid level will drop after the holidays so he can take it. I hope so too!


----------



## MarilynKnits

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> DH drinks cherry juice everyday AND eats at least one can of dark cherries every day. But since his father died, he's been under too much physical and mental stress. Just can't knock it out. Cherries have always worked in the past, but not this time. He can't take allopuranol because it gives him kidney stones, but there is a new drug. You can't take the drug until the attack is over but we just can't get rid of the attack. He's hoping that his uric acid level will drop after the holidays so he can take it. I hope so too!


I am sure you watch his diet to keep his intake of high urea foods at a minimum. Perhaps there is information on these sites that would be of interest as well. Just hope it comes under control. D had a mild attack and was extremely uncomfortable. Hope your dear feel better quickly.

Foods to Minimize High Urea and Creatinine -

Kidney...

http://www.kidney-treatment.org/creatinine/305.html

Cached
Foods to Minimize High Urea and Creatinine. 2013-11-18 13:52. The amounts of urea and creatinine in the blood are two remarkable indicators for kidney function.

What Foods Do I Eat to Reduce High Creatinine and Urea...

http://www.kidney-healthy.com/high-creatinine-level/139.html

Cached
What foods do I eat to reduce high creatinine and urea levels? If you are experiencing elevated urea and creatinine level, you must want to know the answer. Surely ...
What Foods Do I Eat to Reduce High Creatinine and Urea..
.
http://www.kidney-cares.org/creatinine/2923.html

Cached
What foods can I eat to lower high creatinine and urea level? For patients with kidney disease, high creatinine and urea levels always follow them very closely, and ..


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> Happy Holidays.


Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.

The best yet, Jband.

Merry Xmas to you and to Bright Green who posted a beautiful card. And of course to the rest of you who I like so much. Peace and Joy on Earth.


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> Happy Holidays.


Genius! Thank you so much.

Peace and happiness to you and yours, and a wonderful New Year.


----------



## NJG

Merry Christmas to everyone. Hope you all have lots of family time or lots of peace and quiet, whichever makes you happy and content. I am on my way to the kitchen and will spend the rest of the day in there to prepare a Christmas dinner for Kelly, my elderly cousin who lives alone. He wants bar-b-q ribs and broccoli salad so will spend tomorrow with him and my daughter. Then the weekend with both daughters son-in-law and the kidos. Weather around here is suppose to be good for travel at least for tomorrow. Blessings everyone.


----------



## Poor Purl

DGreen said:


> Merry Christmas!


How beautiful, and how eloquently said. Thank you.

I wish you peace and happiness, and hope for the New Year.


----------



## Poor Purl

NJG said:


> Merry Christmas to everyone. Hope you all have lots of family time or lots of peace and quiet, whichever makes you happy and content. I am on my way to the kitchen and will spend the rest of the day in there to prepare a Christmas dinner for Kelly, my elderly cousin who lives alone. He wants bar-b-q ribs and broccoli salad so will spend tomorrow with him and my daughter. Then the weekend with both daughters son-in-law and the kidos. Weather around here is suppose to be good for travel at least for tomorrow. Blessings everyone.


Have a wonderful time for now and the New Year, much peace and happiness. Merry Christmas, NJG.


----------



## aw9358

I'd like to wish everyone a happy Christmas too. I haven't been around much due to a foul tooth infection that laid me low all last week. I just had a quick read of your growing up stories and found them fascinating. I'm a tiny bit younger (58 in a couple of weeks), but I can identify with a lot of what you said. Being a left-handed, working class, third child of four wasn't terribly easy, but at least I got to go to university despite my dad's workmates saying that it was pointless to educate a girl.

Now I've rambled on, so let me repeat my wishes to all for a happy and peaceful Christmas and new year.


----------



## MindyT

SQM said:


> Hebrew straight from the mouth of a Sabre.
> 
> I decided I need a new look. I hope there are sloths for all the holidays. I love Big Nose Lucy.
> 
> What will you be doing for Xmas. A New York Xmas for Jews is Chinese and a movie. Going to see "Into the Woods" with my "set".


In San Francisco they have what is named Kung Pow Kosher Show every Christmas, as the founder said exactly what you said.....Chinese and a movie on Christmas for Jews!

Happy Holidays to one and all!


----------



## Knitted by Nan

A very Merry Christmas and Prosperous New Year from Australia.


----------



## DGreen

aw9358 said:


> I'd like to wish everyone a happy Christmas too. I haven't been around much due to a foul tooth infection that laid me low all last week. I just had a quick read of your growing up stories and found them fascinating. I'm a tiny bit younger (58 in a couple of weeks), but I can identify with a lot of what you said. Being a left-handed, working class, third child of four wasn't terribly easy, but at least I got to go to university despite my dad's workmates saying that it was pointless to educate a girl.
> 
> Now I've rambled on, so let me repeat my wishes to all for a happy and peaceful Christmas and new year.


Hope you're feeling better! You can't seem to catch a break.


----------



## Designer1234

DGreen said:


> Merry Christmas!


What a wonderful card! Best of them all! Thanks Green, I will be thinking of all of you tomorrow/ I have the cuff to finish on Hayley's sweater and 2 small parcels to wrap.

I have finished the Cranberry sauce, bought the buns, and we are ready to go except for the little sweater. Son is coming to pick us up tomorrow and that is so nice as we usually drive but rarely at night. He seems to know when something is appreciated.

I am still a bit weak but each day is a little better. Take care all of you and SEASONS GREETINGS, AND MERRY CHRISTMAS! Love to you all!


----------



## DGreen

Designer1234 said:


> What a wonderful card! Best of them all! Thanks Green, I will be thinking of all of you tomorrow/ I have the cuff to finish on Hayley's sweater and 2 small parcels to wrap.
> 
> I have finished the Cranberry sauce, bought the buns, and we are ready to go except for the little sweater. Son is coming to pick us up tomorrow and that is so nice as we usually drive but rarely at night. He seems to know when something is appreciated.
> 
> I am still a bit weak but each day is a little better. Take care all of you and SEASONS GREETINGS, AND MERRY CHRISTMAS! Love to you all!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl

aw9358 said:


> I'd like to wish everyone a happy Christmas too. I haven't been around much due to a foul tooth infection that laid me low all last week. I just had a quick read of your growing up stories and found them fascinating. I'm a tiny bit younger (58 in a couple of weeks), but I can identify with a lot of what you said. Being a left-handed, working class, third child of four wasn't terribly easy, but at least I got to go to university despite my dad's workmates saying that it was pointless to educate a girl.
> 
> Now I've rambled on, so let me repeat my wishes to all for a happy and peaceful Christmas and new year.


Let peace and joy be yours throughout this season and the coming year. As well as respite from the pain you've been suffering.


----------



## Poor Purl

MindyT said:


> In San Francisco they have what is named Kung Pow Kosher Show every Christmas, as the founder said exactly what you said.....Chinese and a movie on Christmas for Jews!
> 
> Happy Holidays to one and all!


The same to you, Mindy.


----------



## Poor Purl

EveMCooke said:


> A very Merry Christmas and Prosperous New Year from Australia.


And a joyous and peaceful Christmas and prosperous new year from America back to you.

Aussie Christmas is hilarious.


----------



## Poor Purl

Designer1234 said:


> What a wonderful card! Best of them all! Thanks Green, I will be thinking of all of you tomorrow/ I have the cuff to finish on Hayley's sweater and 2 small parcels to wrap.
> 
> I have finished the Cranberry sauce, bought the buns, and we are ready to go except for the little sweater. Son is coming to pick us up tomorrow and that is so nice as we usually drive but rarely at night. He seems to know when something is appreciated.
> 
> I am still a bit weak but each day is a little better. Take care all of you and SEASONS GREETINGS, AND MERRY CHRISTMAS! Love to you all!


Have a wonderful time, get some rest, and accept my wishes for a Merry Christmas and a joyful New Year.


----------



## MarilynKnits

Just got home from four hours of gift wrapping at the local book store. Several of our museum members, including DH, and I put in 32 hours of shifts over the past two weeks and received donations of over $650 all together to help support the historic site we are preserving. The book store loves us because they don't have to assign workers to wrap and having the service attracts customers. We love the donations!

Wishes to each of you for a wonderful holiday, good cheer, good health, and happy times to come.


----------



## aw9358

Marilyn, you're a trojan. I admire your work. And thanks to lovely women for your good wishes - there are many more worse off than me. I wish you all the best of the season.


----------



## Camacho

Happy happy everyone!
Tomorrow a friend of David's is treating the two of us to lunch at an Indian restaurant. We have been eating at Chinese or Indian restaurants with him and his wife on Christmas Day for years. My mother was a one-woman stress creator all by herself. She would not let anyone see the tree until she had stuffed the stockings and wrapped the presents, and although she always wanted things to be ready first thing in the morning, sometimes it was not ready until long after dark. The only thing she accepted help for was David's help buying the tree and putting it up. She effectively killed the spirit of the day with her shenanigans and general mishegas. So since David was all tied up with finals during Hanukah this year, we missed that one, and Christmas will be David and me at an Indian restaurant with a friend for lunch, and I will recall that you know, there are twelve days of Christmas, and the traditional time for gift-giving among my father's family used to be the twelfth day, when el niño Jesús would leave a nice gift in children's shoes if they had been good, and a lump of coal if they had not. So we have never had a guilty conscience about gifts being a little late by Yankee standards. I used to sometimes refer to my DH as the Grinch as a play on his last name, but always felt as though the real Grinch in the family was my mother. When Mother made dinner it would be ready one course at a time at wide intervals, starting extremely late, so we ended up having her at our table for spaghetti. And now I say that it is not what you have for dinner, but that you have dinner together. So we will have something with Jonathan for dinner tomorrow evening. Mother would also not let the season go by without talking about how her daddy had died two days before Christmas and nobody felt like celebrating that year and she still missed him. The rest of her Christmas story was describing how her mother and sister hadn't visited my grandfather in the hospital and had not helped at all with any of the arrangements and had not gone to his funeral, so she had had to do it all. by. herself. And then she would read "yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus." By the time I was eight it was clear to me that Santa Claus in our house was Mommy no matter what she said. And as she got older starting the minute we were out of Grandma's house, she would sink lower and lower and for a few years took me to my aunt and uncle's house where Grandma was living, until after said uncle had been molesting me for over four years she stopped going there until the last few months before Grandma died she went alone to help take care of Grandma, and when she called me to tell me that if I wanted to see Grandma before she died I had better go down to visit, so I took a quick trip down with my son. Then a few weeks later she asked me to be prepared to sing and read a psalm that Grandpa used to say to Grandma every night and a sonnet that Grandma and Mother had found to be the single most comforting thing anyone had sent them right after Grandpa died, and my cousin Cathy resented my being there and my aunt resented my having brought my two tiny children and wouldn't let David and me stay in her house, so Mother called a childhood friend of hers who lived several miles away, and this friend immediately invited all five of us, including Mother, who would not stay in her sister's house if my children were not welcome, to stay at her house.

Sorry that just tumbled out. Have a wonderful happy holiday season everyone, and a great new year/ próspero año nuevo.


----------



## Poor Purl

Camacho said:


> Happy happy everyone!
> Tomorrow a friend of David's is treating the two of us to lunch at an Indian restaurant. We have been eating at Chinese or Indian restaurants with him and his wife on Christmas Day for years. My mother was a one-woman stress creator all by herself. She would not let anyone see the tree until she had stuffed the stockings and wrapped the presents, and although she always wanted things to be ready first thing in the morning, sometimes it was not ready until long after dark. The only thing she accepted help for was David's help buying the tree and putting it up. She effectively killed the spirit of the day with her shenanigans and general mishegas. So since David was all tied up with finals during Hanukah this year, we missed that one, and Christmas will be David and me at an Indian restaurant with a friend for lunch, and I will recall that you know, there are twelve days of Christmas, and the traditional time for gift-giving among my father's family used to be the twelfth day, when el niño Jesús would leave a nice gift in children's shoes if they had been good, and a lump of coal if they had not. So we have never had a guilty conscience about gifts being a little late by Yankee standards. I used to sometimes refer to my DH as the Grinch as a play on his last name, but always felt as though the real Grinch in the family was my mother. When Mother made dinner it would be ready one course at a time at wide intervals, starting extremely late, so we ended up having her at our table for spaghetti. And now I say that it is not what you have for dinner, but that you have dinner together. So we will have something with Jonathan for dinner tomorrow evening. Mother would also not let the season go by without talking about how her daddy had died two days before Christmas and nobody felt like celebrating that year and she still missed him. The rest of her Christmas story was describing how her mother and sister hadn't visited my grandfather in the hospital and had not helped at all with any of the arrangements and had not gone to his funeral, so she had had to do it all. by. herself. And then she would read "yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus." By the time I was eight it was clear to me that Santa Claus in our house was Mommy no matter what she said. And as she got older starting the minute we were out of Grandma's house, she would sink lower and lower and for a few years took me to my aunt and uncle's house where Grandma was living, until after said uncle had been molesting me for over four years she stopped going there until the last few months before Grandma died she went alone to help take care of Grandma, and when she called me to tell me that if I wanted to see Grandma before she died I had better go down to visit, so I took a quick trip down with my son. Then a few weeks later she asked me to be prepared to sing and read a psalm that Grandpa used to say to Grandma every night and a sonnet that Grandma and Mother had found to be the single most comforting thing anyone had sent them right after Grandpa died, and my cousin Cathy resented my being there and my aunt resented my having brought my two tiny children and wouldn't let David and me stay in her house, so Mother called a childhood friend of hers who lived several miles away, and this friend immediately invited all five of us, including Mother, who would not stay in her sister's house if my children were not welcome, to stay at her house.
> 
> Sorry that just tumbled out. Have a wonderful happy holiday season everyone, and a great new year/ próspero año nuevo.


Um, er, Merry Christmas, Camacho.

My mother also had to do it all herself, which made her tired all the time. But she would start early, so it all got done, and then instead of sitting down with us at meals, she'd fall asleep on the living-room couch.


----------



## MarilynKnits

Camacho said:


> Happy happy everyone!
> Tomorrow a friend of David's is treating the two of us to lunch at an Indian restaurant. We have been eating at Chinese or Indian restaurants with him and his wife on Christmas Day for years. My mother was a one-woman stress creator all by herself. She would not let anyone see the tree until she had stuffed the stockings and wrapped the presents, and although she always wanted things to be ready first thing in the morning, sometimes it was not ready until long after dark. The only thing she accepted help for was David's help buying the tree and putting it up. She effectively killed the spirit of the day with her shenanigans and general mishegas. So since David was all tied up with finals during Hanukah this year, we missed that one, and Christmas will be David and me at an Indian restaurant with a friend for lunch, and I will recall that you know, there are twelve days of Christmas, and the traditional time for gift-giving among my father's family used to be the twelfth day, when el niño Jesús would leave a nice gift in children's shoes if they had been good, and a lump of coal if they had not. So we have never had a guilty conscience about gifts being a little late by Yankee standards. I used to sometimes refer to my DH as the Grinch as a play on his last name, but always felt as though the real Grinch in the family was my mother. When Mother made dinner it would be ready one course at a time at wide intervals, starting extremely late, so we ended up having her at our table for spaghetti. And now I say that it is not what you have for dinner, but that you have dinner together. So we will have something with Jonathan for dinner tomorrow evening. Mother would also not let the season go by without talking about how her daddy had died two days before Christmas and nobody felt like celebrating that year and she still missed him. The rest of her Christmas story was describing how her mother and sister hadn't visited my grandfather in the hospital and had not helped at all with any of the arrangements and had not gone to his funeral, so she had had to do it all. by. herself. And then she would read "yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus." By the time I was eight it was clear to me that Santa Claus in our house was Mommy no matter what she said. And as she got older starting the minute we were out of Grandma's house, she would sink lower and lower and for a few years took me to my aunt and uncle's house where Grandma was living, until after said uncle had been molesting me for over four years she stopped going there until the last few months before Grandma died she went alone to help take care of Grandma, and when she called me to tell me that if I wanted to see Grandma before she died I had better go down to visit, so I took a quick trip down with my son. Then a few weeks later she asked me to be prepared to sing and read a psalm that Grandpa used to say to Grandma every night and a sonnet that Grandma and Mother had found to be the single most comforting thing anyone had sent them right after Grandpa died, and my cousin Cathy resented my being there and my aunt resented my having brought my two tiny children and wouldn't let David and me stay in her house, so Mother called a childhood friend of hers who lived several miles away, and this friend immediately invited all five of us, including Mother, who would not stay in her sister's house if my children were not welcome, to stay at her house.
> 
> Sorry that just tumbled out. Have a wonderful happy holiday season everyone, and a great new year/ próspero año nuevo.


Sounds as if your Happy is the man you chose to marry and the children who blessed that marriage. None of us can choose our mothers. We can only hope to become the mothers we wish we had gotten. Enjoy your meal today in the company of pleasant people. Relish the absence of mishugas.

I hope that in 2015 the prayers of all of us are answered, the ones for peace on Earth, for good health, and for peace of mind. And of course for that wonderful find for our stash!


----------



## MarilynKnits

Poor Purl said:


> Um, er, Merry Christmas, Camacho.
> 
> My mother also had to do it all herself, which made her tired all the time. But she would start early, so it all got done, and then instead of sitting down with us at meals, she'd fall asleep on the living-room couch.


Our campaign to get it all done on time and properly was for the Passover seders. About three or four years into our marriage, after D's Nana had passed away and his mother decided it was "too much" for her, guess who was elected!

A few of the years I had to work then go home and get set. The years I was a stay at home Mommy and the work years when I had enough seniority to take a couple days off to prep were the easier ones. And when DH decreed that there were nice paper or plastic plates and disposable bake ware to help clean up, I began to feel liberated. There were years when D drove to Brooklyn to pick up my grandfather, when his brother came, and when neighbors dropped in, that I may have had up to 20 people. Having my grandfather spend Passover with us made it all worthwhile. DH always helped clean up after. I usually fell asleep on the sofa shortly after the meal was over and woke up to Chad Gadya.

Holidays are great for the kids. They just have to wake up and enjoy!


----------



## Camacho

We just had a lovely lunch with and old friend. He told us about his year as the last time we saw him was last Christmas, and then he asked us how our children are doing. When I mentioned that I wish we could give them a new pellet stove because they are limping along not daring to turn their current one up to "high" because they just had a fire in their hopper last week, he asked me how much a new pellet stove costs, and offered a 10% down payment as a Christmas gift to us and our DD. I am deeply touched and grateful. David gave him an Uncle Wiggly book that I had had since I was a small child. Because he is an Equity actor and a retired history professor, and he loves Uncle Wiggly, and my old book completes his collection, I told him when he asked about payment, that the only payment I want is for him to bring it along when he visits David and me in Maine and read it to my granddaughter.
Then we came home and had dinner with Jonathan. Any dinner we have with Jonathan is special to me. 

So I'm happy tonight.


----------



## jbandsma

Am anxiously awaiting the results of my oldest's gift to his girlfriend...a gorgeous ring and a proposal. His ex walked out on him a few years ago leaving him to raise my grand-daughters, getting half his military pension even though she has a better job than he does and never having to pay a penny in child support. 

He deserves for this woman to accept him. I haven't seen him this happy in a long, long time.


----------



## Camacho

jbandsma said:


> Am anxiously awaiting the results of my oldest's gift to his girlfriend...a gorgeous ring and a proposal. His ex walked out on him a few years ago leaving him to raise my grand-daughters, getting half his military pension even though she has a better job than he does and never having to pay a penny in child support.
> 
> He deserves for this woman to accept him. I haven't seen him this happy in a long, long time.


Merry midwinter, jbandsma! I hope you are soon blessed with a new daughter-in-law.


----------



## MarilynKnits

jbandsma said:


> Am anxiously awaiting the results of my oldest's gift to his girlfriend...a gorgeous ring and a proposal. His ex walked out on him a few years ago leaving him to raise my grand-daughters, getting half his military pension even though she has a better job than he does and never having to pay a penny in child support.
> 
> He deserves for this woman to accept him. I haven't seen him this happy in a long, long time.


Has he spoken to an attorney lately? She is getting away with highway robbery getting half his pension after deserting her family.


----------



## jbandsma

MarilynKnits said:


> Has he spoken to an attorney lately? She is getting away with highway robbery getting half his pension after deserting her family.


Yeah. They were married more than 20 years...which he spent in the Air Force so when they divorced, the government automatically gave her half for being dragged all over the world and not able to have a life of her own.

It's crap but there was nothing he could do about it. Now, if she'd just marry the guy she's living with, he'd get it back. Which is probably why she won't.

I guess you can tell I'm not all that fond of her.


----------



## Designer1234

Poor Purl said:


> This was written about you, Shirley:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you all very much it seems to tbe taking a lot longer to get off the results of my hospital visit. We went to spend Christmas with the family so it was quiet and lovely. Gayle sent me lots of food home - enough for at least two days and that will help. each day I am getting stronger.
> 
> I thought of you all during Christmas dinner and hope you have the best of holidays, each and every one. Thanks again, that is my favorite Sinatra sign along with "MY Way" see you all tomorrow. Shirley


----------



## jbandsma

Well, she said yes. My son is over the moon...his plan originally was not to give her the ring until her birthday. IN JUNE. Guess he couldn't wait. 

So now we wait for a date. I'm sure it won't be a big wedding but if it's at all possible, I definitely want to be there.


----------



## MarilynKnits

jbandsma said:


> Yeah. They were married more than 20 years...which he spent in the Air Force so when they divorced, the government automatically gave her half for being dragged all over the world and not able to have a life of her own.
> 
> It's crap but there was nothing he could do about it. Now, if she'd just marry the guy she's living with, he'd get it back. Which is probably why she won't.
> 
> I guess you can tell I'm not all that fond of her.


Not many of us have regard for users. And a user who dumps her kids and does nothing to help provide for them is as low as you can get. Yeah, I get your point and agree with it. Hope you have a long healthy life and see her get what she deserves.


----------



## jbandsma

MarilynKnits said:


> Not many of us have regard for users. And a user who dumps her kids and does nothing to help provide for them is as low as you can get. Yeah, I get your point and agree with it. Hope you have a long healthy life and see her get what she deserves.


What pissed me off the worst was that she walked out just after the youngest got out of the hospital with a serious bout of MRSA. On her chest, almost over her heart. It was still needing packed several times a day and pretty gross. She stood it for less than 24 hours, packed a few things and left. It's one thing when a marriage breaks up. It happens. But I don't see how anyone could think anything but that she couldn't stand caring for her daughter.

How my granddaughter has been able to forgive her for THAT, I will never understand. I sure can't.


----------



## susanmos2000

Designer1234 said:


> Thank you all very much it seems to tbe taking a lot longer to get off the results of my hospital visit. We went to spend Christmas with the family so it was quiet and lovely. Gayle sent me lots of food home - enough for at least two days and that will help. each day I am getting stronger.


That's wonderful, Shirley. I'm so glad you're recovering and were able to have a peaceful and pleasant holiday.


----------



## cookiequeen

susanmos2000 said:


> That's wonderful, Shirley. I'm so glad you're recovering and were able to have a peaceful and pleasant holiday.


Welcome back to the forum, Susan. Peace to you and your family as you try to work through your sorrow. Let's hope that 2015 brings us good health and healing.


----------



## SQM

Hi Mos and Big Nose Lucy,

Now we move onto New Years. Yikes! 2015 sounds too close to my b'day year.


----------



## cookiequeen

SQM said:


> Hi Mos and Big Nose Lucy,
> 
> Now we move onto New Years. Yikes! 2015 sounds too close to my b'day year.


Why? Were you born in 1915?


----------



## susanmos2000

cookiequeen said:


> Welcome back to the forum, Susan. Peace to you and your family as you try to work through your sorrow. Let's hope that 2015 brings us good health and healing.


Thanks, Cookie. Yes, I'm drawing comfort in this hard time from family and friends--yesterday was difficult, but long talks with my sister and my SIL helped immeasurably. They really are wonderful role models--if they can be brave and manage to hold it together then I can try as well.


----------



## susanmos2000

SQM said:


> Hi Mos and Big Nose Lucy,
> 
> Now we move onto New Years. Yikes! 2015 sounds too close to my b'day year.


2015--a nice round number. Let's hope it brings a better year for all--2014 was a downer for the whole world, in my opinion.


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> Well, she said yes. My son is over the moon...his plan originally was not to give her the ring until her birthday. IN JUNE. Guess he couldn't wait.
> 
> So now we wait for a date. I'm sure it won't be a big wedding but if it's at all possible, I definitely want to be there.


I hope _she_ deserves _him_.

Congratulations! "Love is lovelier the second time around."

:-( Now I will crawl into a corner and suck my thumb because I'm so envious.


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> What pissed me off the worst was that she walked out just after the youngest got out of the hospital with a serious bout of MRSA. On her chest, almost over her heart. It was still needing packed several times a day and pretty gross. She stood it for less than 24 hours, packed a few things and left. It's one thing when a marriage breaks up. It happens. But I don't see how anyone could think anything but that she couldn't stand caring for her daughter.
> 
> How my granddaughter has been able to forgive her for THAT, I will never understand. I sure can't.


Children can forgive desertion; at least she didn't stick around to abuse them.

She sounds like a Newt Gingrich type - he asked his first wife for a divorce while she was in the hospital recovering from cancer surgery. And we know how he turned out.


----------



## Poor Purl

susanmos2000 said:


> That's wonderful, Shirley. I'm so glad you're recovering and were able to have a peaceful and pleasant holiday.


Hi Susan. We've been thinking about you - and missing you. Welcome back.


----------



## Poor Purl

cookiequeen said:


> Why? Were you born in 1915?


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Poor Purl

SQM said:


> Hi Mos and Big Nose Lucy,
> 
> Now we move onto New Years. Yikes! 2015 sounds too close to my b'day year.


Isn't every year your birthday year? I'd love to be able to skip a few now and then.


----------



## susanmos2000

Poor Purl said:


> Hi Susan. We've been thinking about you - and missing you. Welcome back.


Thanks, Purl. And my thanks to you and all the wonderful KP ladies who sent their prayers and best wishes these past few days. It's been difficult, but I and the family do seem to be getting through it.


----------



## Designer1234

susanmos2000 said:


> Thanks, Purl. And my thanks to you and all the wonderful KP ladies who sent their prayers and best wishes these past few days. It's been difficult, but I and the family do seem to be getting through it.


You have close by thinking about you. All of us here. Shirley


----------



## Designer1234

We had a lovely, quiet Christrmas, with just son and family. It was great. 

She loved her tunic sweater and wore it after she opened her presents ,throughout the evening.

Lovely time


----------



## jbandsma

Designer1234 said:


> We had a lovely, quiet Christrmas, with just son and family. It was great.
> 
> She loved her tunic sweater and wore it after she opened her presens throughout the evening.
> 
> Lovely time


Absolutely beautiful. Both of you. And the sweaters, too.


----------



## susanmos2000

jbandsma said:


> Absolutely beautiful. Both of you. And the sweaters, too.


I agree, Jbandsma. Both the sweaters and the ladies are lovely.


----------



## SQM

cookiequeen said:


> Why? Were you born in 1915?


No in '46 but 15 is creeping close to 46.

The Shirley Twins look great in their Designer Design.


----------



## MarilynKnits

susanmos2000 said:


> Thanks, Purl. And my thanks to you and all the wonderful KP ladies who sent their prayers and best wishes these past few days. It's been difficult, but I and the family do seem to be getting through it.


Susan, another virtual arm around the shoulder and a virtual hug. Warmest regards.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

Two beautiful young blondes in beautiful jumpers. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## MarilynKnits

Designer1234 said:


> We had a lovely, quiet Christrmas, with just son and family. It was great.
> 
> She loved her tunic sweater and wore it after she opened her presents ,throughout the evening.
> 
> Lovely time


Now that is what I call a couple of super models.


----------



## jbandsma

I just got the weirdest (late) holiday "gift". A notice for a free artery screening.

Taking place at a Baptist church.

Somehow I don't think I'm going to take them up on it.


----------



## MarilynKnits

jbandsma said:


> I just got the weirdest (late) holiday "gift". A notice for a free artery screening.
> 
> Taking place at a Baptist church.
> 
> Somehow I don't think I'm going to take them up on it.


There is a Twilight Zone marathon on Syfy for the New Year. Sounds like part of an episode.


----------



## Poor Purl

susanmos2000 said:


> Thanks, Purl. And my thanks to you and all the wonderful KP ladies who sent their prayers and best wishes these past few days. It's been difficult, but I and the family do seem to be getting through it.


You're all going through a very rough time, and there's no speeding it up. Lean on your family, and lean on us.


----------



## Poor Purl

Designer1234 said:


> We had a lovely, quiet Christrmas, with just son and family. It was great.
> 
> She loved her tunic sweater and wore it after she opened her presents ,throughout the evening.
> 
> Lovely time


You're both so beautiful in those sweaters.


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> I just got the weirdest (late) holiday "gift". A notice for a free artery screening.
> 
> Taking place at a Baptist church.
> 
> Somehow I don't think I'm going to take them up on it.


I wonder whether you can re-gift it to someone else.


----------



## jbandsma

Poor Purl said:


> I wonder whether you can re-gift it to someone else.


Nope. It has my name on it and the card has to be shown when you show up. And how anyone like that got my name and home address is a mystery.


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> Nope. It has my name on it and the card has to be shown when you show up. And how anyone like that got my name and home address is a mystery.


I periodically get stuff like that in the mail for a body scan. Toss!


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> I periodically get stuff like that in the mail for a body scan. Toss!


I would normally just toss it but the fact that it's coming from a church (and one of the dominionist types at that) kind of concerns me. We've had problems before because of our lack of religion.


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> I would normally just toss it but the fact that it's coming from a church (and one of the dominionist types at that) kind of concerns me. We've had problems before because of our lack of religion.


Of course many of us have a lack of religion so I am sorry you are being bugged. What is a dominionist?


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> Of course many of us have a lack of religion so I am sorry you are being bugged. What is a dominionist?


The ones who demand that there is no other religion than theirs, that their religion must be the basis of all laws, and that all people MUST be members of their religion.

Think fundamentalist Muslim only wearing Christian dogma.


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> The ones who demand that there is no other religion than theirs, that their religion must be the basis of all laws, and that all people MUST be members of their religion.
> 
> Think fundamentalist Muslim only wearing Christian dogma.


Are these people the Christian Fundamentalists? Or are they members of the other protestant denominations?


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> Are these people the Christian Fundamentalists? Or are they members of the other protestant denominations?


They're even worse than the fundamentalists. They fully believe and are working toward destroying what democracy we have left and replacing it with a strict theocracy.


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> They're even worse than the fundamentalists. They fully believe and are working toward destroying what democracy we have left and replacing it with a strict theocracy.


What is their name ?


----------



## cookiequeen

Good advice for 2015


----------



## SQM

cookiequeen said:


> Good advice for 2015


Very impressive but I would add question marks after each affirmation.


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> What is their name ?


They don't have a specific name and come from many denominations. You only know them by their rhetoric and politics.


----------



## Designer1234

EveMCooke said:


> Two beautiful young blondes in beautiful jumpers. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Blonde? it looks blonde on her head but certainly grey on mine. Thanks though. Season's greetings to you dear friend. I hope you are doing well.

Gayle just phoned and said she put it on this morning. She told me she felt that I got it just right-

It was a quiet day, much needed by both of us. Slept 8 hours last night and 3 hours this afternoon. Haven't done that well up to today. Take care, friend.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

Designer1234 said:


> Blonde? it looks blonde on her head but certainly grey on mine. Thanks though. Season's greetings to you dear friend. I hope you are doing well.
> 
> Gayle just phoned and said she put it on this morning. She told me she felt that I got it just right-
> 
> It was a quiet day, much needed by both of us. Slept 8 hours last night and 3 hours this afternoon. Haven't done that well up to today. Take care, friend.


I am pleased to see you slept well, it is important to sleep well. Sometimes it is difficult though. My eldest sister, aged 87, has been grey for years and she has blonde highlights put through her hair, and she says that when she became an old age pensioner she became a blonde. She said that unfortunately blondes do not have more fun. She always had very, very dark hair, like our father. His ancestry was Welsh, dark hair, dark eyes and dark complexion.

My daughter's name is Gayle. When she was born in 1962 her father wanted to call her Gayle, which was spelt Gail at the time. I thought I had spelt her name in an unusual way and for many years I did not see the name Gail spelt Gayle. I was always told I had spelt her name incorrectly and many people would not call her Gayle but called her Gay Lee as they said that was the name I had spelt. Now Gayle is the common spelling for the name. I believe there is an American woman golfer whose name is Gayle Watson, which is somewhat funny because my name at the time was Watson, married to a man whose surname was Watson, so Gayle was born Gayle Watson. She still uses that name from time to time because all her qualifications and uni degrees are in her maiden name.


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> They don't have a specific name and come from many denominations. You only know them by their rhetoric and politics.


Just read that Gov Bobby Jindal, said As we make an appeal for leaders of faith to rise up and engage America in the public square with Biblical values, we are trusting you will hear Gods call on your life for this mission. The time has come for pastors to lead the way and reset the course of American governance.

I don't think he stands a chance in 2016.


----------



## jbandsma

NJG said:


> Just read that Gov Bobby Jindal, said As we make an appeal for leaders of faith to rise up and engage America in the public square with Biblical values, we are trusting you will hear Gods call on your life for this mission. The time has come for pastors to lead the way and reset the course of American governance.
> 
> I don't think he stands a chance in 2016.


I hope he doesn't stand a chance any where, any time. Good example of a dominionist.


----------



## Designer1234

jbandsma said:


> Nope. Old fat and ugly. Figure I've earned every wrinkle and white hair and why mess with that.


I feel the same about my wrinkles, can't do anything about them so why fight a hopeless fight. Do what you can to remain who you have always been and don't worry about it. I figure I earned every wrinkle and white hair.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

MarilynKnits said:


> Just got home from four hours of gift wrapping at the local book store. Several of our museum members, including DH, and I put in 32 hours of shifts over the past two weeks and received donations of over $650 all together to help support the historic site we are preserving. The book store loves us because they don't have to assign workers to wrap and having the service attracts customers. We love the donations!
> 
> Wishes to each of you for a wonderful holiday, good cheer, good health, and happy times to come.


I became the family present wrapper when I was 5 because I did it so nicely. The up side of this was that I could always tell which Christmas presents were for me because they always were a bit messy and lumpy...


----------



## MaidInBedlam

Poor Purl said:


> Um, er, Merry Christmas, Camacho.
> 
> My mother also had to do it all herself, which made her tired all the time. But she would start early, so it all got done, and then instead of sitting down with us at meals, she'd fall asleep on the living-room couch.


The one thing my mother reserved for herself was decorating the Christmas tree. Last year I stepped into her shoes because she isn't strong enough anymore to do the job. dwe always watched "The March of the Wooden Soldiers" with Laurel & Hardy. Christmas treats and a funnt movie make a great combination :thumbup:


----------



## NJG

Designer1234 said:


> I feel the same about my wrinkles, can't do anything about them so why fight a hopeless fight. Do what you can to remain who you have always been and don't worry about it. I figure I earned every wrinkle and white hair.


That is the way I feel about my age. Can't do anything about it either. It is what it is. I have never been concerned about telling my age. I am 68 and trying to hide the fact doesn't make it any better.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

EveMCooke said:


> I am pleased to see you slept well, it is important to sleep well. Sometimes it is difficult though. My eldest sister, aged 87, has been grey for years and she has blonde highlights put through her hair, and she says that when she became an old age pensioner she became a blonde. She said that unfortunately blondes do not have more fun. She always had very, very dark hair, like our father. His ancestry was Welsh, dark hair, dark eyes and dark complexion.
> 
> My daughter's name is Gayle. When she was born in 1962 her father wanted to call her Gayle, which was spelt Gail at the time. I thought I had spelt her name in an unusual way and for many years I did not see the name Gail spelt Gayle. I was always told I had spelt her name incorrectly and many people would not call her Gayle but called her Gay Lee as they said that was the name I had spelt. Now Gayle is the common spelling for the name. I believe there is an American woman golfer whose name is Gayle Watson, which is somewhat funny because my name at the time was Watson, married to a man whose surname was Watson, so Gayle was born Gayle Watson. She still uses that name from time to time because all her qualifications and uni degrees are in her maiden name.


I have what used to be an unusual first name that came down through my mother's side of the family. She and I have the same first name... The first time I heard my name spoken to someone else was when I was 21. Now it's popular, but I rather wish it wasn't.


----------



## MarilynKnits

NJG said:


> That is the way I feel about my age. Can't do anything about it either. It is what it is. I have never been concerned about telling my age. I am 68 and trying to hide the fact doesn't make it any better.


The people who try to hide their age - whom do they think they are kidding? Just look at the backs of the hands and the neck and age is a giveaway. Carry your years proudly unless you happen to be a movie star. That is an ageist profession.


----------



## MindyT

MarilynKnits said:


> The people who try to hide their age - whom do they think they are kidding? Just look at the backs of the hands and the neck and age is a giveaway. Carry your years proudly unless you happen to be a movie star. That is an ageist profession.


True 'dat.

Big flap out here right now about Madonna's new CD which was apparently hacked. (No surprise! ) the cover of the CD has her photo shopped and looking 25 or 30. This from the Accept Yourself girl. She's 56, is in fab shape and she could be a beacon of light and truth about aging for baby boomers. Instead she copped out. Darn!

If Katherine Hepburn didn't do it, I'm not doing it either. We, most of us, worked hard for those laugh lines and wrinkles! I earned my face and I intend to take it right along with me. But I suppose if one is vying for a job of some sort in this competitive world, one might have to do a little work to shave a few years. Glad I'm retired.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

MarilynKnits said:


> The people who try to hide their age - whom do they think they are kidding? Just look at the backs of the hands and the neck and age is a giveaway. Carry your years proudly unless you happen to be a movie star. That is an ageist profession.


I treasure every white hair on my head. I earned every one of them. :-D


----------



## DGreen

MindyT said:


> True 'dat.
> 
> Big flap out here right now about Madonna's new CD which was apparently hacked. (No surprise! ) the cover of the CD has her photo shopped and looking 25 or 30. This from the Accept Yourself girl. She's 56, is in fab shape and she could be a beacon of light and truth about aging for baby boomers. Instead she copped out. Darn!
> 
> If Katherine Hepburn didn't do it, I'm not doing it either. We, most of us, worked hard for those laugh lines and wrinkles! I earned my face and I intend to take it right along with me. But I suppose if one is vying for a job of some sort in this competitive world, one might have to do a little work to shave a few years. Glad I'm retired.


I agree completely, though once in a while I look in the mirror and wonder who that old person is. Shave a few years? Nah. I'll just shave a few chin hairs (otherwise known as stray eyebrows) and call it good.


----------



## Poor Purl

MindyT said:


> True 'dat.
> 
> Big flap out here right now about Madonna's new CD which was apparently hacked. (No surprise! ) the cover of the CD has her photo shopped and looking 25 or 30. This from the Accept Yourself girl. She's 56, is in fab shape and she could be a beacon of light and truth about aging for baby boomers. Instead she copped out. Darn!
> 
> If Katherine Hepburn didn't do it, I'm not doing it either. We, most of us, worked hard for those laugh lines and wrinkles! I earned my face and I intend to take it right along with me. But I suppose if one is vying for a job of some sort in this competitive world, one might have to do a little work to shave a few years. Glad I'm retired.


About 5 years ago I went to a neurologist because I was developing tremors in my right hand and my head (I often look as though I'm nodding yes when all I'm doing is nodding off). He said there was medication that would help but he didn't like prescribing it. "Katharine Hepburn did fine with it. Think of it that way."

So I did. And now not only don't I look like Hepburn (neither Katharine nor Audrey), but I can't write legibly. It doesn't interfere with typing or knitting, but threading a needle is an adventure.


----------



## jbandsma

Poor Purl said:


> It doesn't interfere with typing or knitting, but threading a needle is an adventure.


Oh boy can I relate.  Between the cataracts and the tremors, threading my sewing machine is almost like a trip up the Amazon.


----------



## NJG

Poor Purl said:


> About 5 years ago I went to a neurologist because I was developing tremors in my right hand and my head (I often look as though I'm nodding yes when all I'm doing is nodding off). He said there was medication that would help but he didn't like prescribing it. "Katharine Hepburn did fine with it. Think of it that way."
> 
> So I did. And now not only don't I look like Hepburn (neither Katharine nor Audrey), but I can't write legibly. It doesn't interfere with typing or knitting, but threading a needle is an adventure.


I too have been to the Dr. for the same thing, in both hands and some in my head too. The Dr. called them "essential tremors." They started when I was still working. Since I worked in the optical field and part of my job was adjusting and repairing eye glasses, I was having trouble with the tiny screws, so I was put on blood pressure medicine. It did not stop it all together, but helped. I have been able to keep knitting, but it does bother me sometimes. Yes my penmanship went out the door. Things that require a steady hand like threading a needle or anything fine like that are difficult. I also feel like I have lost some of the strength in my hands now and am pretty wimpy. Not sure if that is connected or not.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

jbandsma said:


> Oh boy can I relate.  Between the cataracts and the tremors, threading my sewing machine is almost like a trip up the Amazon.


I do not have a problem with the tremors but my eyes are giving me the gyp. Sometimes I just cannot see the words on the page at all, and that is while I am wearing my glasses. I know I have cataracts growing but I think they have to be completely across your eyes and you have to be almost totally blind before they operate. Anyway, I do not want to think about that operation, thanks. Sitting there, wide awake, eyes wide open, whilst some half demented soul takes pleasure in scraping away your eyeballs! No thank you. I have to enlarge everything I type and I do not get as much pleasure from reading these days.


----------



## SQM

EveMCooke said:


> I do not have a problem with the tremors but my eyes are giving me the gyp. Sometimes I just cannot see the words on the page at all, and that is while I am wearing my glasses. I know I have cataracts growing but I think they have to be completely across your eyes and you have to be almost totally blind before they operate. Anyway, I do not want to think about that operation, thanks. Sitting there, wide awake, eyes wide open, whilst some half demented soul takes pleasure in scraping away your eyeballs! No thank you. I have to enlarge everything I type and I do not get as much pleasure from reading these days.


You are being silly. I have many friends who had their cataracts removed and it was super simple - no pain only gain and bright lights.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

SQM said:


> You are being silly. I have many friends who had their cataracts removed and it was super simple - no pain only gain and bright lights.


I am old, I am allowed to be silly, or cantankerous. My mother told me I could be cantankerous only when I was old, and now I am old. But I will think about it, sometime, maybe.


----------



## SQM

EveMCooke said:


> I am old, I am allowed to be silly, or cantankerous. My mother told me I could be cantankerous only when I was old, and now I am old. But I will think about it, sometime, maybe.


Ok. Sit in darkness and suffer. Wouldn't you love to be liberated from your '60s hippie glasses?


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> Oh boy can I relate.  Between the cataracts and the tremors, threading my sewing machine is almost like a trip up the Amazon.


Philip Roth said, Old age isn't a battle: old age is a massacre.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

SQM said:


> Ok. Sit in darkness and suffer. Wouldn't you love to be liberated from your '60s hippie glasses?


I had the trouble way back years before I started school. When I started school I could see the first baby reading books with the big print and we were allowed to hold a card underneath the printing so we would not lose our place, but when the print size was reduced and the card taken away, the trouble started. They said I read with the tip of my nose. I loved reading but was a hopeless speller, I could not see whether it was one ' l' or two, was it an 'm' or an 'n'. I could not spell the words and could not pronounce them but I recognised them every time I saw them. The name Penelope had me stumped for years, I would think 'there is that name I cannot decipher, spell or pronounce'. Mum could be such a stubborn bitch at times, she steadfastly refused to let me wear glasses, she would tell me that there were enough blind idiots in the family already. Yes, my father's family have trouble with their eyes. I have a cousin who is legally blind, and dad had three aunts who were also legally blind. Two of his sisters went totally blind in their old age. My eldest sister has a lot of trouble with her eyes, she is totally blind in one eye. She said mum would not get her glasses when she was in school. The problem originated with my father's mother's family, I believe that there is a genetic problem there. My father's father never wore glasses in his life and he was over 80 when he died.

And to think I studied shorthand at school, maybe that is why I hated it so much, I had to put so much effort into seeing what was actually there. And to think I earned my living for 15 years as a shorthand typiste and secretary. The first thing I did when I went to work was go make an appointment at an optometrist. Shh, do not tell mum but I lied, I told her that it was part of the medical examination I had to have when I joined the Public Service, which was my second job, my first as a secretary in a legal firm only lasted 6 weeks until I got the job in the State Public Service.

I enjoy sitting here in the dark, I can pretend that if I cannot see you then you are not really there. Not referring to you personally, but perhaps to ????? So if I make typos and spelling mistakes you will excuse me, because I often miss them, even with enlarging the text and proof reading.


----------



## DGreen

Poor Purl said:


> Philip Roth said, Old age isn't a battle: old age is a massacre.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## DGreen

EveMCooke said:


> I had the trouble way back years before I started school. When I started school I could see the first baby reading books with the big print and we were allowed to hold a card underneath the printing so we would not lose our place, but when the print size was reduced and the card taken away, the trouble started. They said I read with the tip of my nose. I loved reading but was a hopeless speller, I could not see whether it was one ' l' or two, was it an 'm' or an 'n'. I could not spell the words and could not pronounce them but I recognised them every time I saw them. The name Penelope had me stumped for years, I would think 'there is that name I cannot decipher, spell or pronounce'. Mum could be such a stubborn bitch at times, she steadfastly refused to let me wear glasses, she would tell me that there were enough blind idiots in the family already. Yes, my father's family have trouble with their eyes. I have a cousin who is legally blind, and dad had three aunts who were also legally blind. Two of his sisters went totally blind in their old age. My eldest sister has a lot of trouble with her eyes, she is totally blind in one eye. She said mum would not get her glasses when she was in school. The problem originated with my father's mother's family, I believe that there is a genetic problem there. My father's father never wore glasses in his life and he was over 80 when he died.
> 
> And to think I studied shorthand at school, maybe that is why I hated it so much, I had to put so much effort into seeing what was actually there. And to think I earned my living for 15 years as a shorthand typiste and secretary. The first thing I did when I went to work was go make an appointment at an optometrist. Shh, do not tell mum but I lied, I told her that it was part of the medical examination I had to have when I joined the Public Service, which was my second job, my first as a secretary in a legal firm only lasted 6 weeks until I got the job in the State Public Service.
> 
> I enjoy sitting here in the dark, I can pretend that if I cannot see you then you are not really there. Not referring to you personally, but perhaps to ????? So if I make typos and spelling mistakes you will excuse me, because I often miss them, even with enlarging the text and proof reading.


I'd love to smack your mum "up side the head!" My DH is legally blind and has struggled with congenital optic neuropathy - which has become progressively worse - his entire life. He was called names and ridiculed for not being able to see, as if a physical problem was some sort of character flaw. It makes me furious.

My wonderful DH compensates so expertly that even I sometimes forget how little he sees and how difficult the most routine tasks can be for him. He and all three of his brothers have the same condition, which was passed to them from their mother. Until about 12 years ago, even the optometrists who examined him never bothered to refer him to a low vision specialist; perhaps they were ignorant such people even exist. Now he goes to one of the best specialists in the US who by incredible good luck had an office about a mile from our home in Mesa. He wears a bioptic telescope and with training and yearly certification can legally drive a car. It's a miracle of technology.

Eve, your spelling and writing are remarkably good. Hubby also had cataracts and the surgery was so very helpful, practically painless, too. Please consider having it done.


----------



## NJG

EveMCooke said:


> I do not have a problem with the tremors but my eyes are giving me the gyp. Sometimes I just cannot see the words on the page at all, and that is while I am wearing my glasses. I know I have cataracts growing but I think they have to be completely across your eyes and you have to be almost totally blind before they operate. Anyway, I do not want to think about that operation, thanks. Sitting there, wide awake, eyes wide open, whilst some half demented soul takes pleasure in scraping away your eyeballs! No thank you. I have to enlarge everything I type and I do not get as much pleasure from reading these days.


I have had cataract surgery on one eye and it was not a problem at all. They give you something so you really are not aware of what they are doing.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

DGreen said:


> I'd love to smack your mum "up side the head!" My DH is legally blind and has struggled with congenital optic neuropathy - which has become progressively worse - his entire life. He was called names and ridiculed for not being able to see, as if a physical problem was some sort of character flaw. It makes me furious.
> 
> My wonderful DH compensates so expertly that even I sometimes forget how little he sees and how difficult the most routine tasks can be for him. He and all three of his brothers have the same condition, which was passed to them from their mother. Until about 12 years ago, even the optometrists who examined him never bothered to refer him to a low vision specialist; perhaps they were ignorant such people even exist. Now he goes to one of the best specialists in the US who by incredible good luck had an office about a mile from our home in Mesa. He wears a bioptic telescope and with training and yearly certification can legally drive a car. It's a miracle of technology.
> 
> Eve, your spelling and writing are remarkably good. Hubby also had cataracts and the surgery was so very helpful, practically painless, too. Please consider having it done.


Thanks for you post. My cousin who is legally blind is one of the greatest pals you could hope for. He has always been fiercely independent, he could travel from his home to ours, a journey involving two busses each way and he never caught the wrong bus. He received the blind pension when he was 16 because he could not see enough to get a job, so he could never drive a car. The only job he had was working at the Blind Institute and the jobs there were only for people who were legally blind. In Perth in the 50s and 60s there were people who were not only legally blind but also totally blind who were employed as telephone operators. Using the old 'cord and jacks' system. This was the days before the modern computerised phones. I still have contact with one guy, he still boasts that he was one up on his sighted friends, he could read in bed even after his mother had turned the lights off, he read Braille. My youngest great grandson, aged 2, is legally blind. He was born with Stickler 's Syndrome, it is said his eyesight is -7, but he is a happy little boy, charges around and does not know any difference between his brother and himself. When he was a baby he had to wear special glasses, they looked like a pair of swimming glasses. People actually took my granddaughter to task for putting 'those stupid things' on such a small baby. Yes, she just gave them the usual answer. MYOBB or gave them the one finger salute.

My main problem was I often did not recognise people until they spoke, then I would say "Oh, I am sorry I did not see you there, my mind was a thousand miles away". People would say 'She is off with the fairies again'. OK, I still have that problem. No problem, the fairies are my friends. But blind people do compensate, they see in other ways. Their other senses compensate and they recognise by smell, sound and perception. I had a blind friend who went to Uni, she became friends with my ex when he offered to type her essays for her. She had typed one essay and not realised she had typed it on pages that already had typing on them, someone had moved the papers on her desk. She ran a hotel with her husband and did the cooking, the cleaning and the ironing. She travelled a lot with her husband and he kept up a running commentary on all he was seeing. When I told her I was going to Melbourne in 1973 she told me the places I should visit. Her descriptions of those places was so accurate, especially when she told us where to go to listen to the lyre birds. Her description of that forrest was spot on. I have lost contact with her now, but she was always such an energetic person and she was such a brilliant conversatonalist.


----------



## jbandsma

EveMCooke said:


> I do not have a problem with the tremors but my eyes are giving me the gyp. Sometimes I just cannot see the words on the page at all, and that is while I am wearing my glasses. I know I have cataracts growing but I think they have to be completely across your eyes and you have to be almost totally blind before they operate. Anyway, I do not want to think about that operation, thanks. Sitting there, wide awake, eyes wide open, whilst some half demented soul takes pleasure in scraping away your eyeballs! No thank you. I have to enlarge everything I type and I do not get as much pleasure from reading these days.


No, that's not the case any more with cataracts. They can be removed at any stage of growth. I'm with you about being awake for it but...they CAN put you out for it. In my case they just don't want to since I have COPD and anesthesia of any kind is a higher risk for me. I'm working with my other doctors to convince them that 15 minutes out isn't going to do that much damage. I'm hoping that it works. (The tremors, btw, are mostly caused by my breathing meds)


----------



## DGreen

EveMCooke said:


> Thanks for you post. My cousin who is legally blind is one of the greatest pals you could hope for. He has always been fiercely independent, he could travel from his home to ours, a journey involving two busses each way and he never caught the wrong bus. He received the blind pension when he was 16 because he could not see enough to get a job, so he could never drive a car. The only job he had was working at the Blind Institute and the jobs there were only for people who were legally blind. In Perth in the 50s and 60s there were people who were not only legally blind but also totally blind who were employed as telephone operators. Using the old 'cord and jacks' system. This was the days before the modern computerised phones. I still have contact with one guy, he still boasts that he was one up on his sighted friends, he could read in bed even after his mother had turned the lights off, he read Braille. My youngest great grandson, aged 2, is legally blind. He was born with Stickler 's Syndrome, it is said his eyesight is -7, but he is a happy little boy, charges around and does not know any difference between his brother and himself. When he was a baby he had to wear special glasses, they looked like a pair of swimming glasses. People actually took my granddaughter to task for putting 'those stupid things' on such a small baby. Yes, she just gave them the usual answer. MYOBB or gave them the one finger salute.
> 
> My main problem was I often did not recognise people until they spoke, then I would say "Oh, I am sorry I did not see you there, my mind was a thousand miles away". People would say 'She is off with the fairies again'. OK, I still have that problem. No problem, the fairies are my friends. But blind people do compensate, they see in other ways. Their other senses compensate and they recognise by smell, sound and perception. I had a blind friend who went to Uni, she became friends with my ex when he offered to type her essays for her. She had typed one essay and not realised she had typed it on pages that already had typing on them, someone had moved the papers on her desk. She ran a hotel with her husband and did the cooking, the cleaning and the ironing. She travelled a lot with her husband and he kept up a running commentary on all he was seeing. When I told her I was going to Melbourne in 1973 she told me the places I should visit. Her descriptions of those places was so accurate, especially when she told us where to go to listen to the lyre birds. Her description of that forrest was spot on. I have lost contact with her now, but she was always such an energetic person and she was such a brilliant conversatonalist.


A couple of years ago when hubby was still working, he was in an elevator at work when a woman got on and she started speaking to him; how are you, when are you retiring, small talk. After she got off, he asked his companion, "Who was that?"

His companion was dumbstruck. The woman was his ex-wife, to whom he had been married for 25 years. She had colored her hair and hubby had genuinely not recognized her. I contend it is because being married to me has driven all memories of other women out of his mind. Works for me - she's a true beauty and actually a nice person.

Yes, those who do not see well have ways to compensate. Those of us who see well cannot imagine how they do it.


----------



## Poor Purl

EveMCooke said:


> I do not have a problem with the tremors but my eyes are giving me the gyp. Sometimes I just cannot see the words on the page at all, and that is while I am wearing my glasses. I know I have cataracts growing but I think they have to be completely across your eyes and you have to be almost totally blind before they operate. Anyway, I do not want to think about that operation, thanks. Sitting there, wide awake, eyes wide open, whilst some half demented soul takes pleasure in scraping away your eyeballs! No thank you. I have to enlarge everything I type and I do not get as much pleasure from reading these days.


I had a cataract in one eye, which made driving interesting - because of monocular vision, I couldn't distinguish between nearby objects and distant ones. I decided to have it removed when the pigeons 3 feet away looked as if they were a block away and as big as the people walking by.

BUT DH has only one functioning eye, the result of lazy-eye syndrome he had as a child. Since he loves to read (and the books he reads are almost never recorded to listen to), the thought of damage to his right (working) eye has always frightened him. He put up with cataracts for years, until he couldn't read without very bright lights. We'd go to a restaurant, and I'd have to read the menu to him, and that was one of the simpler things I had to do for him.

Finally he began to consider cataract surgery, trying to get statistics on things going wrong. He finally met my eye-surgeon, the man who had invented the procedure (he has the charming name of MacKool, though he's not Scots or Irish; he's middle eastern). Dr. MK said he had had no failures in over 4,000 surgeries, so DH agreed to have it done.

No scraping, and it's very quick; they take the bad part out (in this case the lens) and replace it with an artificial but good part. The only thing to worry about is infection, and they give you eyedrops for that.

It's been a wonderful thing for both of us. I no longer have to read British philosophers aloud, and he can pick his own meal from a menu.


----------



## DGreen

Poor Purl said:


> I had a cataract in one eye, which made driving interesting - because of monocular vision, I couldn't distinguish between nearby objects and distant ones. I decided to have it removed when the pigeons 3 feet away looked as if they were a block away and as big as the people walking by.
> 
> BUT DH has only one functioning eye, the result of lazy-eye syndrome he had as a child. Since he loves to read (and the books he reads are almost never recorded to listen to), the thought of damage to his right (working) eye has always frightened him. He put up with cataracts for years, until he couldn't read without very bright lights. We'd go to a restaurant, and I'd have to read the menu to him, and that was one of the simpler things I had to do for him.
> 
> Finally he began to consider cataract surgery, trying to get statistics on things going wrong. He finally met my eye-surgeon, the man who had invented the procedure (he has the charming name of MacKool, though he's not Scots or Irish; he's middle eastern). Dr. MK said he had had no failures in over 4,000 surgeries, so DH agreed to have it done.
> 
> No scraping, and it's very quick; they take the bad part out (in this case the lens) and replace it with an artificial but good part. The only thing to worry about is infection, and they give you eyedrops for that.
> 
> It's been a wonderful thing for both of us. I no longer have to read British philosophers aloud, and he can pick his own meal from a menu.


My DH always has a magnifying glass on his person and they are scattered all over the house, as well. He's functionally blind in one eye, so he can definitely relate to the monocular vision.


----------



## Poor Purl

DGreen said:


> My DH always has a magnifying glass on his person and they are scattered all over the house, as well. He's functionally blind in one eye, so he can definitely relate to the monocular vision.


We have a few of those, also, but when the cataract surgery was done, they put in 20-20 vision. He needs glasses now mainly for reading.


----------



## MarilynKnits

My mother and a couple of my friends had cataract surgery with artificial implanted lenses and did not need glasses thereafter except for extended reading. 

I have what my doctor calls "baby cataracts" which have not changed in nearly a decade. Perhaps my taking 20mg lutein daily for years has kept them status quo. But I have astigmatism and am farsighted, so perhaps I would be better off if I did need cataract surgery and got implants. Without my eyeglasses anything nearby is a blur. My bed side digital clock is 3 feet from my face and I need my glasses to read the time.


----------



## cookiequeen

jbandsma said:


> No, that's not the case any more with cataracts. They can be removed at any stage of growth. I'm with you about being awake for it but...they CAN put you out for it. In my case they just don't want to since I have COPD and anesthesia of any kind is a higher risk for me. I'm working with my other doctors to convince them that 15 minutes out isn't going to do that much damage. I'm hoping that it works. (The tremors, btw, are mostly caused by my breathing meds)


I've had cataract surgery in both eyes, and no general anesthesia was used. They gave me something like Valium and fentanyl, which sedate a person but doesn't put you totally "out." I had nice pleasant dreams with plenty of technicolor and tried my few words of Dari on the anesthesiologist, who was wearing a hijab.


----------



## jbandsma

cookiequeen said:


> I've had cataract surgery in both eyes, and no general anesthesia was used. They gave me something like Valium and fentanyl, which sedate a person but doesn't put you totally "out." I had nice pleasant dreams with plenty of technicolor and tried my few words of Dari on the anesthesiologist, who was wearing a hijab.


Without a general, I simply cannot have it done. I'll accept going blind before I'll face any surgery again without totally being out. No way.


----------



## SQM

cookiequeen said:


> I've had cataract surgery in both eyes, and no general anesthesia was used. They gave me something like Valium and fentanyl, which sedate a person but doesn't put you totally "out." I had nice pleasant dreams with plenty of technicolor and tried my few words of Dari on the anesthesiologist, who was wearing a hijab.


Nu?????????

Our Best Linguist gets to brag about another "language". How many do you dabble in?


----------



## cookiequeen

jbandsma said:


> Without a general, I simply cannot have it done. I'll accept going blind before I'll face any surgery again without totally being out. No way.


There's no bigger chicken than I am, believe me. I have had all kinds of surgery, and the cataract surgery was one of the most pleasant, quickest, most painless, least scariest surgeries I have ever had. I haven't read a lot of background on this thread lately, but if you've had some bad experiences, I understand.


----------



## cookiequeen

SQM said:


> Nu?????????
> 
> Our Best Linguist gets to brag about another "language". How many do you dabble in?


Dari is a language of Afghanistan, sort of a bastardized Farsi, according to people from Iran.
I have about 5 sentences in Dari, probably none of them appropriate for the scene, but I rattled them all off anyway, according to my opthamologist.


----------



## Wombatnomore

DGreen said:


> I agree completely, though once in a while I look in the mirror and wonder who that old person is. Shave a few years? Nah. I'll just shave a few chin hairs (otherwise known as stray eyebrows) and call it good.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Wombatnomore

Poor Purl said:


> Philip Roth said, Old age isn't a battle: old age is a massacre.


I totally agree! Ageing is so unkind, especially for women. How come the men don't seem to age as rapidly as women? Not fair.


----------



## SQM

Wombatnomore said:


> I totally agree! Ageing is so unkind, especially for women. How come the men don't seem to age as rapidly as women? Not fair.


I think men age worse, especially below the belt.


----------



## Camacho

Wombatnomore said:


> I totally agree! Aging is so unkind, especially for women. How come the men don't seem to age as rapidly as women? Not fair.


Mother used to tell me that men's faces get a treat that helps keep their skin young each day when they shave. My Latina face started off needing to be shaved about once a month when I was in my teens and now needs shaving once or twice a week. Is that why I am aging relatively gracefully in that department?


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## Poor Purl

Wombatnomore said:


> I totally agree! Ageing is so unkind, especially for women. How come the men don't seem to age as rapidly as women? Not fair.


Men age as rapidly, but women are considerate enough not to let them know it. Besides, a few extra hairs on a man's chin, who would even notice them?


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## Poor Purl

Camacho said:


> Mother used to tell me that men's faces get a treat that helps keep their skin young each day when they shave. My Latina face started off needing to be shaved about once a month when I was in my teens and now needs shaving once or twice a week. Is that why I am aging relatively gracefully in that department?


Always look on the bright side of life. - Monty Python, _Life of Brian_


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## DGreen

Poor Purl said:


> Always look on the bright side of life. - Monty Python, _Life of Brian_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My all-time favorite movie. The irreverence is just so wonderful!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

jbandsma said:


> Without a general, I simply cannot have it done. I'll accept going blind before I'll face any surgery again without totally being out. No way.


Fentanyl and Valium? That's better than a general! Good stuff! :XD: :XD:


----------



## Poor Purl

DGreen said:


> My all-time favorite movie. The irreverence is just so wonderful!


It's certainly irreverent.


----------



## jbandsma

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Fentanyl and Valium? That's better than a general! Good stuff! :XD: :XD:


Not for someone who's allergic to both.


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## MarilynKnits

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Fentanyl and Valium? That's better than a general! Good stuff! :XD: :XD:


I am so wary of general. My DH had general when he had surgery for prostate cancer. When the tube was removed from his throat his tissues swelled up and he almost suffocated. Fortunately daughter and I took turns staying with him 24/7 while he was in the hospital, and she got help for him in time.

When I had carpal tunnel surgery and hip replacement surgeries, I asked for mild sedation and local anesthesia. I sort of heard what was going on as if it were a dream and didn't have any adverse after effects. No pain at all during surgery, then was doped up on opiates afterward, so I felt no pain later on, either.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

jbandsma said:


> Not for someone who's allergic to both.


Oh! So sad!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

MarilynKnits said:


> I am so wary of general. My DH had general when he had surgery for prostate cancer. When the tube was removed from his throat his tissues swelled up and he almost suffocated. Fortunately daughter and I took turns staying with him 24/7 while he was in the hospital, and she got help for him in time.
> 
> When I had carpal tunnel surgery and hip replacement surgeries, I asked for mild sedation and local anesthesia. I sort of heard what was going on as if it were a dream and didn't have any adverse after effects. No pain at all during surgery, then was doped up on opiates afterward, so I felt no pain later on, either.


When I have general anesthesia, I get very depressed afterwards, almost to the point of feeling suicidal. The feeling lasts for several weeks. Most pain medications don't work on me and if they do work, they only work once or twice. When I had my mastectomy, I woke up in extreme pain and I found myself begging for ibuprofen, which works for me. For obvious reasons, they wouldn't let me have ibuprofen. They kept giving me more and more pain medication but it didn't work. I told them I didn't want more, I needed something different, as it wasn't working at all! Eventually, she gave me something different and it worked! She said it was kind of like ibuprofen. Haha! It was fentanyl, a very strong narcotic. But when I had my lung biopsy, the fentanyl worked for the first dose but did nothing after that. I usually end up just not taking anything because the pain meds don't work and just make me puke (even with anti nausea meds).


----------



## MaidInBedlam

EveMCooke said:


> I do not have a problem with the tremors but my eyes are giving me the gyp. Sometimes I just cannot see the words on the page at all, and that is while I am wearing my glasses. I know I have cataracts growing but I think they have to be completely across your eyes and you have to be almost totally blind before they operate. Anyway, I do not want to think about that operation, thanks. Sitting there, wide awake, eyes wide open, whilst some half demented soul takes pleasure scraping away your eyeballs! No thank you. I have to enlarge everything I type and I do not get as much pleasure from reading these days.


It may be different in Australia, but here in the US one doesn't have to wait until cataracts "ripen" (great proper term for them to be completely across your eyes...) to have them removed. My mother had hers removed from both eyes when they became a nuisance. Usually cataracts are removed by inserting a little tool that vibrates them thus causing them to break into little pieces and then the bits are suctioned out. Back to my mother's experience, there were no demented souls as far as we could tell, the procedure was a day surgery deal and there wasn't any pain. It was in and out in a few hours and then home to enjoy a nice cup of tea. New glasses were needed after both eyes were done, too.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

EveMCooke said:


> I am old, I am allowed to be silly, or cantankerous. My mother told me I could be cantankerous only when I was old, and now I am old. But I will think about it, sometime, maybe.


Not only are you allowed to be silly and cantankerous, you can be an old curmudgeon and go to bed any time you want to. Let me be obnoxious here, but having cataracts removed really is a simple procedure. Day surgery, in and out and then home for a nice cup of tea. Painless. It's done one eye at a time. Some sort of little tool is inserted where the cataract is and vibrates it so it breaks into little pieces. Then the little bit are suctioned out. Usually new glasses are needed after both eyes are done.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

EveMCooke said:


> Thanks for you post. My cousin who is legally blind is one of the greatest pals you could hope for. He has always been fiercely independent, he could travel from his home to ours, a journey involving two busses each way and he never caught the wrong bus. He received the blind pension when he was 16 because he could not see enough to get a job, so he could never drive a car. The only job he had was working at the Blind Institute and the jobs there were only for people who were legally blind. In Perth in the 50s and 60s there were people who were not only legally blind but also totally blind who were employed as telephone operators. Using the old 'cord and jacks' system. This was the days before the modern computerised phones. I still have contact with one guy, he still boasts that he was one up on his sighted friends, he could read in bed even after his mother had turned the lights off, he read Braille. My youngest great grandson, aged 2, is legally blind. He was born with Stickler 's Syndrome, it is said his eyesight is -7, but he is a happy little boy, charges around and does not know any difference between his brother and himself. When he was a baby he had to wear special glasses, they looked like a pair of swimming glasses. People actually took my granddaughter to task for putting 'those stupid things' on such a small baby. Yes, she just gave them the usual answer. MYOBB or gave them the one finger salute.
> 
> My main problem was I often did not recognise people until they spoke, then I would say "Oh, I am sorry I did not see you there, my mind was a thousand miles away". People would say 'She is off with the fairies again'. OK, I still have that problem. No problem, the fairies are my friends. But blind people do compensate, they see in other ways. Their other senses compensate and they recognise by smell, sound and perception. I had a blind friend who went to Uni, she became friends with my ex when he offered to type her essays for her. She had typed one essay and not realised she had typed it on pages that already had typing on them, someone had moved the papers on her desk. She ran a hotel with her husband and did the cooking, the cleaning and the ironing. She travelled a lot with her husband and he kept up a running commentary on all he was seeing. When I told her I was going to Melbourne in 1973 she told me the places I should visit. Her descriptions of those places was so accurate,ind. I especially when she told us where to go to listen to the lyre birds. Her description of that forrest was spot on. I have lost contact with her now, but she was always such an energetic person and she was such a brilliant conversationalist.


You sure are getting a lot of responses to your vision problems. In case you aren't sick of all these responses, let me add that my BFF was born totally blind, her parents and the parents of a couple of other blind children forced the local school district into letting them go to regular school instead of a school for the blind. If there's anything my friend can't do it probably isn't worth doing or doesn't exist.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

MaidInBedlam said:


> Not only are you allowed to be silly and cantankerous, you can be an old curmudgeon and go to bed any time you want to. Let me be obnoxious here, but having cataracts removed really is a simple procedure. Day surgery, in and out and then home for a nice cup of tea. Painless. It's done one eye at a time. Some sort of little tool is inserted where the cataract is and vibrates it so it breaks into little pieces. Then the little bit are suctioned out. Usually new glasses are needed after both eyes are done.


OK I will give the optometrists a ring when they open after the Christmas break, should be about the 2nd week of January. Cost of new glasses is a bug, over $750 for reading glasses, which I now wear almost all of the time, plus sunnies when I am driving. I went to Spec Savers last time, they boast that they are the cheapest. A friend talked me into going there, said they were ultra cheap. What a load of old malarkey, my glasses cost exactly the same as if I had gone to my friendly and trusted optometrist in Mundaring. I have never been happy with the glasses from Spec Savers, I should have stuck with the friendly sheila in the hills. The actual eye examination is free, the cost is totally born by Medicare and as an old age pensioner I am entitled to a small refund from the State Government.

Excuse my French here but I just checked the net. "​The WA Spectacle Subsidy Scheme assists with the purchase of a complete pair of prescribed spectacles or contact lenses by providing a subsidy to a maximum of $51.25. " The rotten so and sos, it was $80 last time I got my new specs. Thanks an heap Colin Barnett, I REALLY appreciate that.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

EveMCooke said:


> OK I will give the optometrists a ring when they open after the Christmas break, should be about the 2nd week of January. Cost of new glasses is a bug, over $750 for reading glasses, which I now wear almost all of the time, plus sunnies when I am driving. I went to Spec Savers last time, they boast that they are the cheapest. A friend talked me into going there, said they were ultra cheap. What a load of old malarkey, my glasses cost exactly the same as if I had gone to my friendly and trusted optometrist in Mundaring. I have never been happy with the glasses from Spec Savers, I should have stuck with the friendly sheila in the hills. The actual eye examination is free, the cost is totally born by Medicare and as an old age pensioner I am entitled to a small refund from the State Government.
> 
> Excuse my French here but I just checked the net. "​The WA Spectacle Subsidy Scheme assists with the purchase of a complete pair of prescribed spectacles or contact lenses by providing a subsidy to a maximum of $51.25. " The rotten so and sos, it was $80 last time I got my new specs. Thanks an heap Colin Barnett, I REALLY appreciate that.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

MaidInBedlam said:


> You sure are getting a lot of responses to your vision problems. In case you aren't sick of all these responses, let me add that my BFF was born totally blind, her parents and the parents of a couple of other blind children forced the local school district into letting them go to regular school instead of a school for the blind. If there's anything my friend can't do it probably isn't worth doing or doesn't exist.


I agree with you and I bet as small children you did not notice anything different about her, she was just your best friend, your mate. :thumbup:


----------



## MaidInBedlam

EveMCooke said:


> OK I will give the optometrists a ring when they open after the Christmas break, should be about the 2nd week of January. Cost of new glasses is a bug, over $750 for reading glasses, which I now wear almost all of the time, plus sunnies when I am driving. I went to Spec Savers last time, they boast that they are the cheapest. A friend talked me into going there, said they were ultra cheap. What a load of old malarkey, my glasses cost exactly the same as if I had gone to my friendly and trusted optometrist in Mundaring. I have never been happy with the glasses from Spec Savers, I should have stuck with the friendly sheila in the hills. The actual eye examination is free, the cost is totally born by Medicare and as an old age pensioner I am entitled to a small refund from the State Government.
> 
> Excuse my French here but I just checked the net. "​The WA Spectacle Subsidy Scheme assists with the purchase of a complete pair of prescribed spectacles or contact lenses by providing a subsidy to a maximum of $51.25. " The rotten so and sos, it was $80 last time I got my new specs. Thanks an heap Colin Barnett, I REALLY appreciate that.


$750???? Wow!! Yikes, too!!! I wear coke bottle bottom glasses and they're "only" around $350 including the exam and new frames.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

EveMCooke said:


> I agree with you and I bet as small children you did not notice anything different about her, she was just your best friend, your mate. :thumbup:


We've been friends since we met in 1962 when we were 13. To the extent I noticed anything different about her, it was little stuff.


----------



## NJG

This is one awesome letter that tells it like it is.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/09/1053088/-An-open-letter-to-the-people-who-hate-Obama-more-than-they-love-America?detail=email?detail=email


----------



## Cheeky Blighter

NJG said:


> This is one awesome letter that tells it like it is.
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/09/1053088/-An-open-letter-to-the-people-who-hate-Obama-more-than-they-love-America?detail=email?detail=email


Thanks for sharing this letter, Norma. So spot on true and yet so sad that so many idiots proudly run around our country espousing what they believe are their virtuous beliefs when they are an ignorant array of falsehoods they have deluded themselves into believing as gospel. Hope everyone will read it.


----------



## NJG

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Thanks for sharing this letter, Norma. So spot on true and yet so sad that so many idiots proudly run around our country espousing what they believe are their virtuous beliefs when they are an ignorant array of falsehoods they have deluded themselves into believing as gospel. Hope everyone will read it.


Only problem is those that should read it won't and if they did, they would say it isn't them.


----------



## jbandsma

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Thanks for sharing this letter, Norma. So spot on true and yet so sad that so many idiots proudly run around our country espousing what they believe are their virtuous beliefs when they are an ignorant array of falsehoods they have deluded themselves into believing as gospel. Hope everyone will read it.


And their heads will explode before they've even read the full first paragraph, a petition to have it completely removed will be started and the author will receive 600 death threats, 25 threats of rape against his wife/girlfriend/significant other/sister/daughter/mother, even before one of them publishes his address, phone number and where he works.


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> This is one awesome letter that tells it like it is.
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/09/1053088/-An-open-letter-to-the-people-who-hate-Obama-more-than-they-love-America?detail=email?detail=email


Wow.

Unfortunately, the people who need to read it the most, won't. Or if they do, won't recognize themselves.


----------



## jbandsma

Sorry, I didn't get the whole quote in the first time and farkled the date. But this is where the hatred comes from:

"Let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good.... If a Christian voted for Clinton, he sinned against God. It's that simple.... Our goal is a Christian Nation... we have a biblical duty, we are called by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want Pluralism. We want theocracy. Theocracy means God rules. I've got a hot flash. God rules."

[Randall Terry, Head of Operation Rescue, from The News Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, Aug 15, 1993]


----------



## jbandsma

And more...where you can see it building.

"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we will execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed... If we're going to have true reformation in America, it is because men once again, if I may use a worn out expression, have righteous testoserone flowing through their veins. They are not afraid of contempt for their contemporaries. They are not even here to get along. They are here to take over... Somebody like Susan Smith should be dead. She should be dead now. Some people will go, "Well how do you know God doesn't have a wonderful plan for her life?" He does, it's listed in the Bible. His plan for her is that she should be dead."

[Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, at the Aug 8, 1995 U.S. Taxpayers Alliance Banquet in Washington DC, talking about doctors who perform abortions and volunteer escorts]


----------



## MarilynKnits

jbandsma said:


> And more...where you can see it building.
> 
> "When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we will execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed... If we're going to have true reformation in America, it is because men once again, if I may use a worn out expression, have righteous testoserone flowing through their veins. They are not afraid of contempt for their contemporaries. They are not even here to get along. They are here to take over... Somebody like Susan Smith should be dead. She should be dead now. Some people will go, "Well how do you know God doesn't have a wonderful plan for her life?" He does, it's listed in the Bible. His plan for her is that she should be dead."
> 
> [Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, at the Aug 8, 1995 U.S. Taxpayers Alliance Banquet in Washington DC, talking about doctors who perform abortions and volunteer escorts]


And these are the fanatics who hate everybody else when it is obvious they hate themselves the most. And they are the most hateful. They sit right there with the Inquisition, with Hitler, with ISIL all the inhuman beasts who would subjugate the world to prove to themselves that they have some worth.

How do people get this way? This level of self righteous inhumanity is hideous. And then there are the abject fools who support and encourage them.

People like the majority of us have to stay strong and vote to keep these monsters from getting any sort of toehold into the soul of this country, this hemisphere, this world. If people like those prevail, the ones who are left will be back in the trees scratching at their fleas.


----------



## Poor Purl

NJG said:


> This is one awesome letter that tells it like it is.
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/09/1053088/-An-open-letter-to-the-people-who-hate-Obama-more-than-they-love-America?detail=email?detail=email


That _is_ an awesome letter. We need to keep this hatred at the front of our minds all the time, or it will take over. It's hard to believe this is going on in this country and this century, but it is.


----------



## Poor Purl

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Thanks for sharing this letter, Norma. So spot on true and yet so sad that so many idiots proudly run around our country espousing what they believe are their virtuous beliefs when they are an ignorant array of falsehoods they have deluded themselves into believing as gospel. Hope everyone will read it.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## NJG

Remember the guy who said if Obama won he would have to close his business and put everyone out of work. Well guess what, he has now bought the Orlando Predators and bought a massive hotel/casino in Las Vegas and has started work again on his 90,000 sq ft house. Guess he isn't doing so bad after all. Who needs a 30 car garage?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/25/1316539/-That-FL-CEO-Who-Said-He-d-FIRE-Everyone-if-Obama-Elected-Guess-What-Happened?detail=email


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> And their heads will explode before they've even read the full first paragraph, a petition to have it completely removed will be started and the author will receive 600 death threats, 25 threats of rape against his wife/girlfriend/significant other/sister/daughter/mother, even before one of them publishes his address, phone number and where he works.


I would not have been surprised to learn that such things did happen, except that the piece dates from 
January 2012 and therefore has been around for 3 years. Maybe it was classified until now.


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> And more...where you can see it building.
> 
> "When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we will execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed... If we're going to have true reformation in America, it is because men once again, if I may use a worn out expression, have righteous testoserone flowing through their veins. They are not afraid of contempt for their contemporaries. They are not even here to get along. They are here to take over... Somebody like Susan Smith should be dead. She should be dead now. Some people will go, "Well how do you know God doesn't have a wonderful plan for her life?" He does, it's listed in the Bible. His plan for her is that she should be dead."
> 
> <Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, at the Aug 8, 1995 U.S. Taxpayers Alliance Banquet in Washington DC, talking about doctors who perform abortions and volunteer escorts>


How is it that Christianity, which has for a long time preached a belief based on love, has attracted such people, who want to take it over and turn it on its head?


----------



## Poor Purl

MarilynKnits said:


> And these are the fanatics who hate everybody else when it is obvious they hate themselves the most. And they are the most hateful. They sit right there with the Inquisition, with Hitler, with ISIL all the inhuman beasts who would subjugate the world to prove to themselves that they have some worth.
> 
> How do people get this way? This level of self righteous inhumanity is hideous. And then there are the abject fools who support and encourage them.
> 
> People like the majority of us have to stay strong and vote to keep these monsters from getting any sort of toehold into the soul of this country, this hemisphere, this world. If people like those prevail, the ones who are left will be back in the trees scratching at their fleas.


"Self-righteous inhumanity" is a wonderful description of their world-view. I hope we can succeed in keeping them out of power, but I don't think we can. They already run the Air Force and other parts of the military.


----------



## DGreen

Poor Purl said:


> How is it that Christianity, which has for a long time preached a belief based on love, has attracted such people, who want to take it over and turn it on its head?


I understand that many Christians, including many on this thread, actually do understand their faith as one of love, forgiveness and redemption.

As an atheist (and former Christian who was raised Baptist and converted to Catholicism), I see it very differently. Christianity glorifies suffering and bloodshed. It is the very core of the faith - there is no redemption except through blood sacrifice. Whenever I hear a Christian claim to have been "washed in the blood" I can't help but cringe at the imagery. Violence and tribalism is integral to Christianity - that's why the violent and hateful elements appeal to extremists. People who love display love; people who are intolerant and rigid in their beliefs use Christianity as justification for their hatred of those unlike them.

Just my opinion.


----------



## annamatilda

NJG said:


> This is one awesome letter that tells it like it is.
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/09/1053088/-An-open-letter-to-the-people-who-hate-Obama-more-than-they-love-America?detail=email?detail=email


Very interesting. I vote for "MinistryOfTruth." and anyone else who believes this garbage, to set up their own community on Mars. Where there will be no "hate."


----------



## jbandsma

Why am I not even the least surprised?


----------



## Poor Purl

DGreen said:


> I understand that many Christians, including many on this thread, actually do understand their faith as one of love, forgiveness and redemption.
> 
> As an atheist (and former Christian who was raised Baptist and converted to Catholicism), I see it very differently. Christianity glorifies suffering and bloodshed. It is the very core of the faith - there is no redemption except through blood sacrifice. Whenever I hear a Christian claim to have been "washed in the blood" I can't help but cringe at the imagery. Violence and tribalism is integral to Christianity - that's why the violent and hateful elements appeal to extremists. People who love display love; people who are intolerant and rigid in their beliefs use Christianity as justification for their hatred of those unlike them.
> 
> Just my opinion.


It looks like a well-thought out opinion.

I remember a comedy duo, from the sixties, I think, called Wayne and Schuster, who did a routine that I loved. Wayne would play a very loud-talking Christian, Schuster a nervous little Jew who was always being pushed around by the other. In one sketch, the Jew said he had converted to Christianity, and the other guy asked him, speaking very quickly, "Have you been washed in the blood of the lamb?"

S: What? What did you say?

W: (still fast) "Have you been washed in the blood of the lamb?"

S: I didn't understand what you said.

W: (very slow now and very loud) "Have-you-been-washed-in-the-blood-of-the-lamb?"

S: Oy, vey. Dot sounds disgusting.

Big laugh from the audience. But when I mentioned the "blood of the lamb" line, KPG came at me and told me I was sick. "Have you never heard of the Passover?" I pointed out that it was my people who invented "the Passover," only we called it just Passover these days. It turned out that all that blood came from the Paschal lamb, which was sacrificed on Passover, only the Hebrews ate the roasted lamb, they didn't bathe in the blood. Apparently that all changed when the Christians took it over.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

NJG said:


> This is one awesome letter that tells it like it is.
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/09/1053088/-An-open-letter-to-the-people-who-hate-Obama-more-than-they-love-America?detail=email?detail=email


And did it not occur to any of you what a bigot the author of the article is?!? He lumps everybody together and just ASSUMES that if you hate Obama, you hate gays, black people immigrants, muslims, labor unions and women. If THAT'S not bigotry, what IS?!? What a disgusting article! I keep hearing liberals say that they're open minded. If you accept what this jerk says, your mind is closed as tight as a drum! And if you agree with him, you should really examine whether you suffer from a little bigotry yourself! How easy it is to see the flaws in others, without seeing them in ourselves! How easy it is to let others divide us!


----------



## BrattyPatty

Good Morning and Happy New Year! Still battling this cold.
I hope this new year brings you all much joy, good health,
and above all, peace.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

BrattyPatty said:


> Good Morning and Happy New Year! Still battling this cold.
> I hope this new year brings you all much joy, good health,
> and above all, peace.


Same to you, Patty! Gosh, you've been battling that cold for a while now. I hope it goes away soon. I've not gotten anything, even though DD's fiancee came to Christmas, sick! They've been saying on the news that the flu is bad this year and the vaccine didn't offer protection from this strain. They guessed wrong. I'm not too worried, I haven't gotten the flu in forty years. If I'm in the vicinity of someone who's coughing or sniffling, I move away fast. And I avoid touching anything. Get better soon!


----------



## SQM

BrattyPatty said:


> Good Morning and Happy New Year! Still battling this cold.
> I hope this new year brings you all much joy, good health,
> and above all, peace.


Happy 2015 back to you.

I heard that rubbing Vicks on the bottom of your feet might help. Makes no sense, of course, but it is something to do while you are ailing.

Get well soon and come to NYC.


----------



## MarilynKnits

BrattyPatty said:


> Good Morning and Happy New Year! Still battling this cold.
> I hope this new year brings you all much joy, good health,
> and above all, peace.


Drink plenty of fluids to help flush out the toxins. Hope you get over the cold quickly and feel better soon.

Happy New Year to all.


----------



## DGreen

BrattyPatty said:


> Good Morning and Happy New Year! Still battling this cold.
> I hope this new year brings you all much joy, good health,
> and above all, peace.


And the same to you! Get well soon.


----------



## NJG

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And did it not occur to any of you what a bigot the author of the article is?!? He lumps everybody together and just ASSUMES that if you hate Obama, you hate gays, black people immigrants, muslims, labor unions and women. If THAT'S not bigotry, what IS?!? What a disgusting article! I keep hearing liberals say that they're open minded. If you accept what this jerk says, your mind is closed as tight as a drum! And if you agree with him, you should really examine whether you suffer from a little bigotry yourself! How easy it is to see the flaws in others, without seeing them in ourselves! How easy it is to let others divide us!


I didn't see anywhere in the letter where it says everybody. It sounds to me like he is talking to the one person reading it. Each person can then decide this is not me or yes I do feel that way. From some of the comments on these forums, I think it fits a lot of people. Does every conservative hate all the same things, no, of course not. If you read the letter and it doesn't fit you, then good for you. I wish more people could say that, but i don't think that is the case.


----------



## NJG

SQM said:


> Happy 2015 back to you.
> 
> I heard that rubbing Vicks on the bottom of your feet might help. Makes no sense, of course, but it is something to do while you are ailing.
> 
> Get well soon and come to NYC.


That seems to work for my daughter to stop the coughing at night, but doesn't work for me. 
My Grandpa bought a wart from me for a penny when I was about 7 or 8. I was to throw the penny away and not tell anyone where it was. I had a wart disappear and he said he got one. I thought my grandpa could walk on water, so I think that is why it worked. Oh, what I wouldn't give to talk to Grandpa today.


----------



## jbandsma

NJG said:


> That seems to work for my daughter to stop the coughing at night, but doesn't work for me.
> My Grandpa bought a wart from me for a penny when I was about 7 or 8. I was to throw the penny away and not tell anyone where it was. I had a wart disappear and he said he got one. I thought my grandpa could walk on water, so I think that is why it worked. Oh, what I wouldn't give to talk to Grandpa today.


Sounds like my grandpa. He was a water well driller who located wells with a forked peach limb. Always told me he could also use it to find out where I'd been bad. 

He was the first person to hold me and I was his favorite. And I agree, what I wouldn't give to have him back even for an hour.


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> Happy 2015 back to you.
> 
> I heard that rubbing Vicks on the bottom of your feet might help. Makes no sense, of course, but it is something to do while you are ailing.
> 
> Get well soon and come to NYC.


My mother used to say "of all the things that won't cure a cold, whiskey makes having one bearable"


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

NJG said:


> I didn't see anywhere in the letter where it says everybody. It sounds to me like he is talking to the one person reading it. Each person can then decide this is not me or yes I do feel that way. From some of the comments on these forums, I think it fits a lot of people. Does every conservative hate all the same things, no, of course not. If you read the letter and it doesn't fit you, then good for you. I wish more people could say that, but i don't think that is the case.


He's not talking TO the people who hate Obama! He's talking to YOU! He's trying to influence liberal minded people, cause them to hate. It's pure propaganda designed to inflame! Brainwashing! Divide and conquer!


----------



## jbandsma

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> He's not talking TO the people who hate Obama! He's talking to YOU! He's trying to influence liberal minded people, cause them to hate. It's pure propaganda designed to inflame! Brainwashing! Divide and conquer!


You didn't read it very well if that's what you got from it. Or maybe that's what you wanted to get from it. You certainly don't see what's happening all around you. What other president has been made into an effigy with a rope around his neck hanging from a tree? What other ethnic group have you seen consistently portrayed as ignorant, lazy and criminal? What other group have you seen denied the dignity of being even seen as human?

Do you have a granddaughter who has been told she deserves to be locked up at the least, 'executed' at best, because she loves another woman? Who lives in a state where she can be fired if her bosses even -think- she's gay? Where a major religious group seriously believes that all gays should be executed and are trying to get legislators to add that to the law like they did in Africa?

You don't see it. And what's worse, even if you did you wouldn't stand up and say "that is NOT what I believe and you are wrong to say it". Nobody who reads that piece and SAYS that it doesn't apply to them will.


----------



## cookiequeen

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> He's not talking TO the people who hate Obama! He's talking to YOU! He's trying to influence liberal minded people, cause them to hate. It's pure propaganda designed to inflame! Brainwashing! Divide and conquer!


I disagree with you. Look around. There are too many people around who hate Obama but disguise their hatred by saying something like "I don't like his policies" to cover their real feelings. Racism is alive and well. And you don't have to stray too far from KP to see racism, hatred directed at "libs," and hatred towards anyone who isn't their idea of a Christian. He's not trying to influence me---I already agree with much of what he said.


----------



## cookiequeen

jbandsma said:


> You didn't read it very well if that's what you got from it. Or maybe that's what you wanted to get from it. You certainly don't see what's happening all around you. What other president has been made into an effigy with a rope around his neck hanging from a tree? What other ethnic group have you seen consistently portrayed as ignorant, lazy and criminal? What other group have you seen denied the dignity of being even seen as human?
> 
> Do you have a granddaughter who has been told she deserves to be locked up at the least, 'executed' at best, because she loves another woman? Who lives in a state where she can be fired if her bosses even -think- she's gay? Where a major religious group seriously believes that all gays should be executed and are trying to get legislators to add that to the law like they did in Africa?
> 
> You don't see it. And what's worse, even if you did you wouldn't stand up and say "that is NOT what I believe and you are wrong to say it". Nobody who reads that piece and SAYS that it doesn't apply to them will.


You beat me to it!


----------



## galinipper

jbandsma said:


> You didn't read it very well if that's what you got from it. Or maybe that's what you wanted to get from it. You certainly don't see what's happening all around you. What other president has been made into an effigy with a rope around his neck hanging from a tree?


----------



## cookiequeen

Not the same thing at all. We didn't have people in Congress and/or party leaders blatantly making inappropriate, racist remarks about and to Bush and family. There'so no excuse for The hatred displayed for 6 years of this presidency and it doesn't compare with attacks on Bush.


----------



## jbandsma

I don't know where you found those, I never saw any of them. I remember one with a picture of Bush with one of his expressions NEXT TO a picture of a chimp with the same expression.

The ones you show are disgusting. The one I would LIKE to see is one I probably never will...of him in the dock at the world court answering for -his- war crimes.


----------



## jbandsma

cookiequeen said:


> Not the same thing at all. We didn't have people in Congress and/or party leaders blatantly making inappropriate, racist remarks about and to Bush and family. There'so no excuse for The hatred displayed for 6 years of this presidency and it doesn't compare with attacks on Bush.


Bush's drunken underage brawling daughters also got a pass from everybody where Obama's daughters get called stupid picaninnies and described as too slow to understand what's going on.

Oh, and I loved the one where Mrs. Obama was called FAT. By Rush Limbaugh.


----------



## galinipper

cookiequeen said:


> Not the same thing at all. We didn't have people in Congress and/or party leaders blatantly making inappropriate, racist remarks about and to Bush and family. There'so no excuse for The hatred displayed for 6 years of this presidency and it doesn't compare with attacks on Bush.


Sure it's not the same thing.....sure it doesn't compare......


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

jbandsma said:


> You didn't read it very well if that's what you got from it. Or maybe that's what you wanted to get from it. You certainly don't see what's happening all around you. What other president has been made into an effigy with a rope around his neck hanging from a tree? What other ethnic group have you seen consistently portrayed as ignorant, lazy and criminal? What other group have you seen denied the dignity of being even seen as human?
> 
> Do you have a granddaughter who has been told she deserves to be locked up at the least, 'executed' at best, because she loves another woman? Who lives in a state where she can be fired if her bosses even -think- she's gay? Where a major religious group seriously believes that all gays should be executed and are trying to get legislators to add that to the law like they did in Africa?
> 
> You don't see it. And what's worse, even if you did you wouldn't stand up and say "that is NOT what I believe and you are wrong to say it". Nobody who reads that piece and SAYS that it doesn't apply to them will.


Ignore the fact that effigies of bush were lit on fire! That other presidents were hated and even assasinated! That every culture that was different, was considered ignorant, stupid, dirty or thieving! Remember the " ******", the "*****", the " poles", the "jews", the " irish" (I could go on and on!)! There is nothing new about this! It's not limited to one political party or one president! If you choose to see only what you want to see, you are blind! If we allow others to divide us with words, to poison our minds, what future is there for any of our grandchildren?


----------



## NJG

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> He's not talking TO the people who hate Obama! He's talking to YOU! He's trying to influence liberal minded people, cause them to hate. It's pure propaganda designed to inflame! Brainwashing! Divide and conquer!


At the very top it says an open letter to the people who hate Obama. If the shoe fits, where it. Otherwise move on. I will not discuss it with you anymore.


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> You didn't read it very well if that's what you got from it. Or maybe that's what you wanted to get from it. You certainly don't see what's happening all around you. What other president has been made into an effigy with a rope around his neck hanging from a tree? What other ethnic group have you seen consistently portrayed as ignorant, lazy and criminal? What other group have you seen denied the dignity of being even seen as human?
> 
> Do you have a granddaughter who has been told she deserves to be locked up at the least, 'executed' at best, because she loves another woman? Who lives in a state where she can be fired if her bosses even -think- she's gay? Where a major religious group seriously believes that all gays should be executed and are trying to get legislators to add that to the law like they did in Africa?
> 
> You don't see it. And what's worse, even if you did you wouldn't stand up and say "that is NOT what I believe and you are wrong to say it". Nobody who reads that piece and SAYS that it doesn't apply to them will.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## NJG

cookiequeen said:


> I disagree with you. Look around. There are too many people around who hate Obama but disguise their hatred by saying something like "I don't like his policies" to cover their real feelings. Racism is alive and well. And you don't have to stray too far from KP to see racism, hatred directed at "libs," and hatred towards anyone who isn't their idea of a Christian. He's not trying to influence me---I already agree with much of what he said.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## annamatilda

jbandsma said:


> You didn't read it very well if that's what you got from it. Or maybe that's what you wanted to get from it. You certainly don't see what's happening all around you. What other president has been made into an effigy with a rope around his neck hanging from a tree? What other ethnic group have you seen consistently portrayed as ignorant, lazy and criminal? What other group have you seen denied the dignity of being even seen as human?
> 
> Do you have a granddaughter who has been told she deserves to be locked up at the least, 'executed' at best, because she loves another woman? Who lives in a state where she can be fired if her bosses even -think- she's gay? Where a major religious group seriously believes that all gays should be executed and are trying to get legislators to add that to the law like they did in Africa?
> 
> You don't see it. And what's worse, even if you did you wouldn't stand up and say "that is NOT what I believe and you are wrong to say it". Nobody who reads that piece and SAYS that it doesn't apply to them will.


"Stupid is, as stupid does." Forrest Gump


----------



## NJG

cookiequeen said:


> Not the same thing at all. We didn't have people in Congress and/or party leaders blatantly making inappropriate, racist remarks about and to Bush and family. There'so no excuse for The hatred displayed for 6 years of this presidency and it doesn't compare with attacks on Bush.


Any attacks on Bush, he brought on himself by starting a war based on lies. Attacks on President Obama are because of the color of his skin.


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> I don't know where you found those, I never saw any of them. I remember one with a picture of Bush with one of his expressions NEXT TO a picture of a chimp with the same expression.
> 
> The ones you show are disgusting. The one I would LIKE to see is one I probably never will...of him in the dock at the world court answering for -his- war crimes.


And Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice should be there with him.


----------



## jbandsma

NJG said:


> Any attacks on Bush, he brought on himself by starting a war based on lies. Attacks on President Obama are because of the color of his skin.


Not only that with Bush. After all, we'll never really know if he actually won that first election. The only way we would have been sure would have been if those votes in Florida had been allowed to be counted. Instead, the Supreme Court stepped in, stopped the count and AWARDED the election to Bush.


----------



## NJG

galinipper said:


> Sure it's not the same thing.....sure it doesn't compare......


You are right, it's not and it doesn't.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

cookiequeen said:


> I disagree with you. Look around. There are too many people around who hate Obama but disguise their hatred by saying something like "I don't like his policies" to cover their real feelings. Racism is alive and well. And you don't have to stray too far from KP to see racism, hatred directed at "libs," and hatred towards anyone who isn't their idea of a Christian. He's not trying to influence me---I already agree with much of what he said.


I hate obama! And it's got nothing to do with race! For anyone to claim otherwise is disgusting, hateful, ignorant and despicable! Obama hates this country! He is the enemy to everything we hold dear! He panders to the masses with his LIES! Before you accuse me of being blind, I feel the same about bush! And he's white! Does that make me a reverse racist?!? Yes, racism is alive and well! It always has been and always will be! To automatically declare one a racist because their views differ, is to dismiss and insult! Open minded people listen and discuss!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

cookiequeen said:


> Not the same thing at all. We didn't have people in Congress and/or party leaders blatantly making inappropriate, racist remarks about and to Bush and family. There'so no excuse for The hatred displayed for 6 years of this presidency and it doesn't compare with attacks on Bush.


Denial! Race is only ONE tool used by people to dismiss the opinions of others! They are all equally effective! Haters use whatever is available to them!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

jbandsma said:


> I don't know where you found those, I never saw any of them. I remember one with a picture of Bush with one of his expressions NEXT TO a picture of a chimp with the same expression.
> 
> The ones you show are disgusting. The one I would LIKE to see is one I probably never will...of him in the dock at the world court answering for -his- war crimes.


I agree with your last paragraph! And again, it has nothing to do with race!


----------



## jbandsma

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I hate obama! And it's got nothing to do with race! For anyone to claim otherwise is disgusting, hateful, ignorant and despicable! Obama hates this country! He is the enemy to everything we hold dear! He panders to the masses with his LIES! Before you accuse me of being blind, I feel the same about bush! And he's white! Does that make me a reverse racist?!? Yes, racism is alive and well! It always has been and always will be! To automatically declare one a racist because their views differ, is to dismiss and insult! Open minded people listen and discuss!


And every time we try to discuss with you, your racism comes to the fore, and you don't even realize what you're saying.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

jbandsma said:


> Bush's drunken underage brawling daughters also got a pass from everybody where Obama's daughters get called stupid picaninnies and described as too slow to understand what's going on.
> 
> Oh, and I loved the one where Mrs. Obama was called FAT. By Rush Limbaugh.


"Bush's drunken underage brawling daughters" got a pass?!? If that were true you wouldn't be commenting on it because you wouldn't have heard about it! Selective prossessing! Hypocrisy!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

NJG said:


> At the very top it says an open letter to the people who hate Obama. If the shoe fits, where it. Otherwise move on. I will not discuss it with you anymore.


Close minded!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

NJG said:


> Any attacks on Bush, he brought on himself by starting a war based on lies. Attacks on President Obama are because of the color of his skin.


I agree with your FIRST sentence!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

NJG said:


> And Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice should be there with him.


Agreed!!!


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> Not only that with Bush. After all, we'll never really know if he actually won that first election. The only way we would have been sure would have been if those votes in Florida had been allowed to be counted. Instead, the Supreme Court stepped in, stopped the count and AWARDED the election to Bush.


Right, besides destroying our economy and almost putting us into a depression.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

jbandsma said:


> Not only that with Bush. After all, we'll never really know if he actually won that first election. The only way we would have been sure would have been if those votes in Florida had been allowed to be counted. Instead, the Supreme Court stepped in, stopped the count and AWARDED the election to Bush.


IMO! The elections are decided before anybody even casts a vote.


----------



## galinipper

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Ignore the fact that effigies of bush were lit on fire! That other presidents were hated and even assasinated! That every culture that was different, was considered ignorant, stupid, dirty or thieving! Remember the " ******", the "*****", the " poles", the "jews", the " irish" (I could go on and on!)! There is nothing new about this! It's not limited to one political party or one president! If you choose to see only what you want to see, you are blind! If we allow others to divide us with words, to poison our minds, what future is there for any of our grandchildren?


I don't have time for posting today and above all else I am not a regular here, but if anyone thinks that the government is looking out for you, your family you are dead wrong. If you think that what they have done for the last 100 yrs. is for the betterment of future generations again......wrong. They will throw you a crumb here and there, keep you busy. They will throw you a crumb here and there and we will argue about if the crumb came from a progressive or a conservative. All the while they are eating the cake and laughing, or sunbathing, or vacationing for a few weeks, or getting more plastic surgery, or soaking in a bubblebath sipping champagne, you know this list is never-ending. They are rubbing it in your face, day after day, dollar after dollar, ( that dollar comes from you and me by the way).

Nebraska, I don't know if I agree with you on everything or anything other than the scam the government is playing on it's citizens and prepping for the bottom to fall out of this great nation, I haven't checked nor does it matter, but on this subject you are so right. Good Luck to you and your Family in 2015.
Gali


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

jbandsma said:


> And every time we try to discuss with you, your racism comes to the fore, and you don't even realize what you're saying.


You're a despicable coward! You don't know me! You don't pay any attention to what I say! You dismiss me as a racist when you couldn't be further from the truth! My dil is black! My grandson is black! My love for them is deeper than the ocean! I see NO color! I see love! People like you are the most disgusting racists of all! It's an insidious hatred that causes people to put their focus on the color of one's skin! And that fits you to a tee!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

galinipper said:


> I don't have time for posting today and above all else I am not a regular here, but if anyone thinks that the government is looking out for you, your family you are dead wrong. If you think that what they have done for the last 100 yrs. is for the betterment of future generations again......wrong. They will throw you a crumb here and there, keep you busy. They will throw you a crumb here and there and we will argue about if the crumb came from a progressive or a conservative. All the while they are eating the cake and laughing, or sunbathing, or vacationing for a few weeks, or getting more plastic surgery, or soaking in a bubblebath sipping champagne, you know this list is never-ending. They are rubbing it in your face, day after day, dollar after dollar, ( that dollar comes from you and me by the way).
> 
> Nebraska, I don't know if I agree with you on everything or anything other than the scam the government is playing on it's citizens and prepping for the bottom to fall out of this great nation, I haven't checked nor does it matter, but on this subject you are so right. Good Luck to you and your Family in 2015.
> Gali


 :thumbup: I agree with what you said! And it makes no difference whether the democraps are in power or the republicraps!

Thanks, Gali!


----------



## jbandsma

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You're a despicable coward! You don't know me! You don't pay any attention to what I say! You dismiss me as a racist when you couldn't be further from the truth! My dil is black! My grandson is black! My love for them is deeper than the ocean! I see NO color! I see love! People like you are the most disgusting racists of all! It's an insidious hatred that causes people to put their focus on the color of one's skin! And that fits you to a tee!


Oh whoopee...the modern equivalent of "some of my best friends are black".

See, comments like 'my grandson is black' is about as racist as you can get. I don't see you making any mention of the part of him that's white, do I?

As for focus on color? Yeah...because without it the problems of inequality on that measure will only get worse. Supreme Court says racism is no longer a deciding factor in the voting rights act and what happens when they gut it? Within HOURS states put measures in effect to make it extremely difficult or impossible for people of color to vote. So yes, we do need to be mindful of what's happening and to whom. Not close our eyes and plug our ears and say "not my problem, I don't see color".


----------



## MarilynKnits

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO! The elections are decided before anybody even casts a vote.


Unfortunately it seems it is not how voters cast their votes as much as who counts them.


----------



## SQM

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> :thumbup: I agree with what you said! And it makes no difference whether the democraps are in power or the republicraps!
> 
> Thanks, Gali!


Now this is a truism that I can comment on.

Hate the Military, Big Industry and Big Religion rather than the Puppets they keep in their pockets.


----------



## Poor Purl

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I hate obama! And it's got nothing to do with race! For anyone to claim otherwise is disgusting, hateful, ignorant and despicable! Obama hates this country! He is the enemy to everything we hold dear! He panders to the masses with his LIES! Before you accuse me of being blind, I feel the same about bush! And he's white! Does that make me a reverse racist?!? Yes, racism is alive and well! It always has been and always will be! To automatically declare one a racist because their views differ, is to dismiss and insult! Open minded people listen and discuss!


Oh, please.


----------



## BrattyPatty

Oh my! There are tempers flaring in here today. Take a few deep breaths.
This is a new year. Let's see what changes (if any) this new republican house will bring.

Does anyone have any new cream cheese recipes?


----------



## jbandsma

BrattyPatty said:


> Oh my! There are tempers flaring in here today. Take a few deep breaths.
> This is a new year. Let's see what changes (if any) this new republican house will bring.
> 
> Does anyone have any new cream cheese recipes?


It's only going to get worse. Count on it.


----------



## rocky1991

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I hate obama! And it's got nothing to do with race! For anyone to claim otherwise is disgusting, hateful, ignorant and despicable! Obama hates this country! He is the enemy to everything we hold dear! He panders to the masses with his LIES! Before you accuse me of being blind, I feel the same about bush! And he's white! Does that make me a reverse racist?!? Yes, racism is alive and well! It always has been and always will be! To automatically declare one a racist because their views differ, is to dismiss and insult! Open minded people listen and discuss!


May I have an example of how Obama hates The Us?


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> It's only going to get worse. Count on it.


I'm afraid I have to agree with you. The republicans will want to pass their agenda on to the president, which he will veto and then they can scream how terrible he is, how un-American, that man from Kenya. They will try really hard not to send him anything he can agree to, because God forbid they make him look good, as he must fail. Will they pass immigration? No, cause they can't blame him if they do that. Will they raise the minimum wage, even though their constituents want them to? No, because the big corporations won't allow them to, as they control the purse strings. Will they continue to try to cut education, food stamps and any help for the poor. Yes, of course. They love the income inequality because it gives them so much more control over their minions. Keep them hungry and poor, don't let them get a foothold in the ladder. They may think they deserve more.


----------



## BrattyPatty

MarilynKnits said:


> Drink plenty of fluids to help flush out the toxins. Hope you get over the cold quickly and feel better soon.
> 
> Happy New Year to all.


Argh! I am so frustrated!
I have been in bed and trying to knit. I had 3 inches done on a simple K3P3 rib collar and realized that somewhere along the wayI twisted the stitches or turned the work. One side is only 2 inches.
A- froggin we will go! :evil:


----------



## jbandsma

rocky1991 said:


> May I have an example of how Obama hates The Us?


Oh, you know... Things like cutting the deficit, trying to get some kinds of jobs bills passed, especially for our military veterans, helping get the auto industry out of a hole. Terrible stuff like that. Stuff he's had to do in the face of people like Lindsey Graham saying "he actually wants us to compromise on things".

There's a lot of things I don't agree with...drones, continuing warfare, caving on more perks for the already insanely rich, other things. But what he's done, under the conditions he's had to work with, are impressive.


----------



## NJG

BrattyPatty said:


> Argh! I am so frustrated!
> I have been in bed and trying to knit. I had 3 inches done on a simple K3P3 rib collar and realized that somewhere along the wayI twisted the stitches or turned the work. One side is only 2 inches.
> A- froggin we will go! :evil:


Sorry about that. Sometimes s--- happens, and doesn't it tick you off when it does. On the other hand I have started a sock, again, after many tries and I will whisper this--don't want to say it too loud--but I am almost ready for the heel, and I think it looks good. The toe looks good, but will report back after the heel!


----------



## Poor Purl

BrattyPatty said:


> Oh my! There are tempers flaring in here today. Take a few deep breaths.
> This is a new year. Let's see what changes (if any) this new republican house will bring.
> 
> Does anyone have any new cream cheese recipes?


Are you asking for things to make _with_ cream cheese, or do you want to try making cream cheese yourself?

http://www.theprairiehomestead.com/2012/10/how-to-make-cream-cheese.html


----------



## BrattyPatty

Poor Purl said:


> Are you asking for things to make _with_ cream cheese, or do you want to try making cream cheese yourself?
> 
> http://www.theprairiehomestead.com/2012/10/how-to-make-cream-cheese.html


I was being um.... sarcastic


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> Oh, you know... Things like cutting the deficit, trying to get some kinds of jobs bills passed, especially for our military veterans, helping get the auto industry out of a hole. Terrible stuff like that. Stuff he's had to do in the face of people like Lindsey Graham saying "he actually wants us to compromise on things".
> 
> There's a lot of things I don't agree with...drones, continuing warfare, caving on more perks for the already insanely rich, other things. But what he's done, under the conditions he's had to work with, are impressive.


Ya, I have never understood what the big complaint is and no one ever seems able to answer the question. They hate his policies. Policies like what? What has he done that has affected you so terribly that has made you hate him so much? I don't agree with this new TPP they are trying to pass and hope it fails.


----------



## Poor Purl

BrattyPatty said:


> Argh! I am so frustrated!
> I have been in bed and trying to knit. I had 3 inches done on a simple K3P3 rib collar and realized that somewhere along the wayI twisted the stitches or turned the work. One side is only 2 inches.
> A- froggin we will go! :evil:


Poor Patty. That sounds worse than your everlasting cold.

But it's not worse than what I did: I made a baby sweater knitted in one piece, and when all the knitting was done except for the button band, it turned out that the two fronts were not the same size, one being 3/4 inch longer than the other. How I did this while knitting the thing in one piece I can't figure out. And I also can't figure out how to fix it without massive frogging.

Get a lot of rest before you attack the knitting again. And feel better soon.


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> Ya, I have never understood what the big complaint is and no one ever seems able to answer the question. They hate his policies. Policies like what? What has he done that has affected you so terribly that has made you hate him so much? I don't agree with this new TPP they are trying to pass and hope it fails.


Benghazi!!!!


----------



## Camacho

David just brought up the best dessert: He knows my favorite drink in all the world is (non-alcoholic, of course) hot chocolate eggnog. I told him how to make it last night, but left out one important step, so it wasn't really right. Tonight he brought me two cups done right, and just for good measure he also brought up some lightly roasted walnuts. Happy New Year, indeed! Joy and harmony to all.


----------



## Poor Purl

BrattyPatty said:


> I was being um.... sarcastic


I know. So was I.


----------



## Poor Purl

NJG said:


> Ya, I have never understood what the big complaint is and no one ever seems able to answer the question. They hate his policies. Policies like what? What has he done that has affected you so terribly that has made you hate him so much? I don't agree with this new TPP they are trying to pass and hope it fails.


Isn't it cute how, whenever you ask what it is they don't like, there's nothing specific, other than too many vacations or Michele wanting kids to move more. It's all some mushy "bad policy" or too much spending. GRRR! :evil:


----------



## NJG

Poor Purl said:


> Isn't it cute how, whenever you ask what it is they don't like, there's nothing specific, other than too many vacations or Michele wanting kids to move more. It's all some mushy "bad policy" or too much spending. GRRR! :evil:


Ya, there sure is no reason for American kids to be healthy. Now if Mrs. Romney were in the White House, I 'm sure she could give some good healthy advice, but not that Mrs. Obama. I don't know how both of them manage to keep their cool. I would be so depressed if I had to deal with the crap they do, just from the right trying to destroy them, let alone the problems of the country. 
They say nearly a quarter of the nations 600,000 bridges, are structurally deficient or obsolete. Why don't the republicans work on those.


----------



## SQM

NJG said:


> I'm afraid I have to agree with you. The republicans will want to pass their agenda on to the president, which he will veto and then they can scream how terrible he is, how un-American, that man from Kenya. They will try really hard not to send him anything he can agree to, because God forbid they make him look good, as he must fail. Will they pass immigration? No, cause they can't blame him if they do that. Will they raise the minimum wage, even though their constituents want them to? No, because the big corporations won't allow them to, as they control the purse strings. Will they continue to try to cut education, food stamps and any help for the poor. Yes, of course. They love the income inequality because it gives them so much more control over their minions. Keep them hungry and poor, don't let them get a foothold in the ladder. They may think they deserve more.


I assume that Obama sees, as well as you do, what's in store for him and is making suitable plans.


----------



## damemary

Tell me why people don't vote in their best interests? I'm constantly amazed by that.



NJG said:


> I'm afraid I have to agree with you. The republicans will want to pass their agenda on to the president, which he will veto and then they can scream how terrible he is, how un-American, that man from Kenya. They will try really hard not to send him anything he can agree to, because God forbid they make him look good, as he must fail. Will they pass immigration? No, cause they can't blame him if they do that. Will they raise the minimum wage, even though their constituents want them to? No, because the big corporations won't allow them to, as they control the purse strings. Will they continue to try to cut education, food stamps and any help for the poor. Yes, of course. They love the income inequality because it gives them so much more control over their minions. Keep them hungry and poor, don't let them get a foothold in the ladder. They may think they deserve more.


----------



## damemary

Ending two endless wars. Killing bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.



jbandsma said:


> Oh, you know... Things like cutting the deficit, trying to get some kinds of jobs bills passed, especially for our military veterans, helping get the auto industry out of a hole. Terrible stuff like that. Stuff he's had to do in the face of people like Lindsey Graham saying "he actually wants us to compromise on things".
> 
> There's a lot of things I don't agree with...drones, continuing warfare, caving on more perks for the already insanely rich, other things. But what he's done, under the conditions he's had to work with, are impressive.


----------



## damemary

BrattyPatty said:


> I was being um.... sarcastic


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Poor Purl

Camacho said:


> David just brought up the best dessert: He knows my favorite drink in all the world is (non-alcoholic, of course) hot chocolate eggnog. I told him how to make it last night, but left out one important step, so it wasn't really right. Tonight he brought me two cups done right, and just for good measure he also brought up some lightly roasted walnuts. Happy New Year, indeed! Joy and harmony to all.


He's a keeper! But what was the important step he left out?


----------



## NJG

SQM said:


> I assume that Obama sees, as well as you do, what's in store for him and is making suitable plans.


I hope so, but I'm not sure what you mean by suitable plans. He can guess what is in store for him, but who can predict what the republicans will decide to do? Do they have a plan other than obstruct? Good question.


----------



## NJG

damemary said:


> Tell me why people don't vote in their best interests? I'm constantly amazed by that.


Yes , amazes me too. They have voted one way for years and are not smart enough to figure out what serves them the best. It is like the Dr telling you he was going to cut off your foot and you say ok and don't ask why. Not smart. And just as "not smart" is the democrats not voting in this last election. Not smart.


----------



## Poor Purl

NJG said:


> Ya, there sure is no reason for American kids to be healthy. Now if Mrs. Romney were in the White House, I 'm sure she could give some good healthy advice, but not that Mrs. Obama. I don't know how both of them manage to keep their cool. I would be so depressed if I had to deal with the crap they do, just from the right trying to destroy them, let alone the problems of the country.
> They say nearly a quarter of the nations 600,000 bridges, are structurally deficient or obsolete. Why don't the republicans work on those.


They would, if it meant they could give more of our tax dollars to corporations. If, instead, the workers were hired by the public sector, nononono we can't afford it!!!!!!


----------



## Poor Purl

damemary said:


> Ending two endless wars. Killing bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.


I don't think it was President Obama who killed Saddam Hussein.


----------



## SQM

Poor Purl said:


> I don't think it was President Obama who killed Saddam Hussein.


Another Bush achievement. Credit where credit is due.


----------



## Poor Purl

I learned recently that Mario Cuomo had died. Most of you probably don't remember him; his biggest national appearance was a speech he made at the Democratic convention in 1984. But he was governor of New York for three terms, and he governed with both his heart and his mind.

When someone claims that all politicians are the same, I would like to introduce her to Mario Cuomo.


----------



## Poor Purl

SQM said:


> Another Bush achievement. Credit where credit is due.


Speaking of giving credit, your new avatar is adorable. That's some cute sloth.


----------



## SQM

Poor Purl said:


> I learned recently that Mario Cuomo had died. Most of you probably don't remember him; his biggest national appearance was a speech he made at the Democratic convention in 1984. But he was governor of New York for three terms, and he governed with both his heart and his mind.
> 
> When someone claims that all politicians are the same, I would like to introduce her to Mario Cuomo.


He was a decent man. He was the governor when I came to NY. Did what was right for our state, even if it went against his personal convictions. Rare exception that proves the rule, tho. Don't like the "fils" much.


----------



## Poor Purl

SQM said:


> He was a decent man. He was the governor when I came to NY. Did what was right for our state, even if it went against his personal convictions. Rare exception that proves the rule, tho. Don't like the "fils" much.


Then skip the PM I just sent you. It says exactly the same thing.


----------



## SQM

Poor Purl said:


> Speaking of giving credit, your new avatar is adorable. That's some cute sloth.


La paresse de 'annee.


----------



## Camacho

Poor Purl said:


> He's a keeper! But what was the important step he left out?


Ah! I forgot to tell David that when you heat up the milk and cream you have to bring it to at least scalding and even a full boil is okay before you pour it (slowly) into the beaten egg. Otherwise by the time you have mixed everything thoroughly it is no longer a hot drink and it is kind of hard to reheat. We reheated it briefly last night, and tonight it was thoroughly mixed and piping hot. Yum. (1/4 cup each of unsweetened flax milk, unsweetened almond milk, and heavy cream, twice as much non-alcoholic vanilla extract as one would use if it had alcohol in it, about eight drops of liquid stevia, heated thoroughly, mixed into one beaten raw organic egg. Elixir. The cream might not be the greatest for me, but it's a holiday.) I also love cold eggnog, but even though lukewarm still tastes good, it is really not my thing. Using a blend of flax milk and almond milk was new this year, and works quite well. Even our son likes flax milk.


----------



## Camacho

Hey, I liked Mario Cuomo! Wasn't he called "Hamlet on the Hudson" at one time? Thinking about things is a GOOD thing. That's what I liked about him. I'm sorry he's gone.


----------



## Poor Purl

SQM said:


> La paresse de 'annee.


Mah zeh "paresse"?


----------



## Poor Purl

Camacho said:


> Ah! I forgot to tell David that when you heat up the milk and cream you have to bring it to at least scalding and even a full boil is okay before you pour it (slowly) into the beaten egg. Otherwise by the time you have mixed everything thoroughly it is no longer a hot drink and it is kind of hard to reheat. We reheated it briefly last night, and tonight it was thoroughly mixed and piping hot. Yum. (1/4 cup each of unsweetened flax milk, unsweetened almond milk, and heavy cream, twice as much non-alcoholic vanilla extract as one would use if it had alcohol in it, about eight drops of liquid stevia, heated thoroughly, mixed into one beaten raw organic egg. Elixir. The cream might not be the greatest for me, but it's a holiday.) I also love cold eggnog, but even though lukewarm still tastes good, it is really not my thing. Using a blend of flax milk and almond milk was new this year, and works quite well. Even our son likes flax milk.


Sounds interesting. I've been drinking hot chocolate a lot, lately.


----------



## Poor Purl

Camacho said:


> Hey, I liked Mario Cuomo! Wasn't he called "Hamlet on the Hudson" at one time? Thinking about things is a GOOD thing. That's what I liked about him. I'm sorry he's gone.


I'd forgotten about Hamlet on the Hudson. He certainly was a thinker. He'll be missed by those of us capable of appreciating him. I'm glad you're one of us.


----------



## Poor Purl

Here's an interesting piece of history that was just sent to me.


----------



## SQM

Poor Purl said:


> Mah zeh "paresse"?


Sloth in ze french.

Where is CQ when we are having language class?


----------



## damemary

I would like to see the Dems prepared with ways to circumvent the obstructionism.



NJG said:


> I hope so, but I'm not sure what you mean by suitable plans. He can guess what is in store for him, but who can predict what the republicans will decide to do? Do they have a plan other than obstruct? Good question.


----------



## damemary

Right, of course. Just trying to claim anything for the Pres, I guess.



Poor Purl said:


> I don't think it was President Obama who killed Saddam Hussein.


----------



## MindyT

Do we need to print" The letter to Americans from a Canadian" again? The letter that points out all President Obama's many accomplishments? If so, I have it archived and will be glad to refresh those who "hate his policies", and believe he hates this country. Why would he hate this country when he is such a successful person? Why would he get up every day and try to figure out how to circumvent the Party of No with some meaningful work. Remember it was the evil twins, McConnell and Boenner who said...before he was inaugurated ......that it was their job to make sure nothing he wanted got passed and to make sure he was a one-term president.


----------



## cookiequeen

Poor Purl said:


> I learned recently that Mario Cuomo had died. Most of you probably don't remember him; his biggest national appearance was a speech he made at the Democratic convention in 1984. But he was governor of New York for three terms, and he governed with both his heart and his mind.
> 
> When someone claims that all politicians are the same, I would like to introduce her to Mario Cuomo.


I remember Mario Cuomo and I actually remember some of the speech in San Francisco. He was proud to be a liberal. We need more Mario Cuomos today.


----------



## cookiequeen

Camacho said:


> Ah! I forgot to tell David that when you heat up the milk and cream you have to bring it to at least scalding and even a full boil is okay before you pour it (slowly) into the beaten egg. Otherwise by the time you have mixed everything thoroughly it is no longer a hot drink and it is kind of hard to reheat. We reheated it briefly last night, and tonight it was thoroughly mixed and piping hot. Yum. (1/4 cup each of unsweetened flax milk, unsweetened almond milk, and heavy cream, twice as much non-alcoholic vanilla extract as one would use if it had alcohol in it, about eight drops of liquid stevia, heated thoroughly, mixed into one beaten raw organic egg. Elixir. The cream might not be the greatest for me, but it's a holiday.) I also love cold eggnog, but even though lukewarm still tastes good, it is really not my thing. Using a blend of flax milk and almond milk was new this year, and works quite well. Even our son likes flax milk.


I hope he didn't leave out the chocolate.


----------



## cookiequeen

SQM said:


> Sloth in ze french.
> 
> Where is CQ when we are having language class?


Don't count on moi. I had to look it up!


----------



## cookiequeen

Because my iPad won't allow me to copy and paste:
Google "Harvard language dialect quiz" and have fun taking this little quiz.
You take the quiz and it tries to figure where you're from according to dialect. It appeared in the NYT and was talked about on NPR the other day.


----------



## peacegoddess

MindyT said:


> Do we need to print" The letter to Americans from a Canadian" again? The letter that points out all President Obama's many accomplishments? If so, I have it archived and will be glad to refresh those who "hate his policies", and believe he hates this country. Why would he hate this country when he is such a successful person? Why would he get up every day and try to figure out how to circumvent the Party of No with some meaningful work. Remember it was the evil twins, McConnell and Boenner who said...before he was inaugurated ......that it was their job to make sure nothing he wanted got passed and to make sure he was a one-term president.


I do not hate President Obama, but I am not enamored by his presidency or his many hawkish policies. I believe he is a centrist in his economic and social policies and actions and did not vote for him either time. It is time we had a viable progressive third party and we might see the beginning of one if Sanders decides to run for president.

Happy New year to all


----------



## MindyT

I like Bernie a lot and get his newsletters. A third party is such a long process. See: Peace and Freedom and Green parties. They never get enough votes to make them viable and allowed in "The debates". Although after the insane Republican debates of...what two years ago....it was such a joke and nothing but no, no, no, against...no policies or new ideas. And may I just say, Michelle Bachman....yee gods.
I think it's preordained....Clinton v Bush once again. JEB is and has been running. He is just divesting himself from his really bad contacts, boards, etc. now. 
Please whoever it was that brought up Bengazi, please don't bring it up again., there have been many, many Republican-lead hesrings who concluded there is no there there. It's the only thing they have from a rather sterling career at State. Like her or not, she was effective. 
And Boehnner is ready to have yet another hearing. 
Just please get over it.


----------



## DGreen

peacegoddess said:


> I do not hate President Obama, but I am not enamored by his presidency or his many hawkish policies. I believe he is a centrist in his economic and social policies and actions and did not vote for him either time. It is time we had a viable progressive third party and we might see the beginning of one if Sanders decides to run for president.
> 
> Happy New year to all


Warren/Sanders 2016!


----------



## MindyT

Warren/Sanders 2016.... Good by me.


----------



## Poor Purl

cookiequeen said:


> I remember Mario Cuomo and I actually remember some of the speech in San Francisco. He was proud to be a liberal. We need more Mario Cuomos today.


We've never had enough of them.

The famous part of the San Francisco speech, directed to Reagan:

Ten days ago, President Reagan admitted that although some people in this country seemed to be doing well nowadays, others were unhappy, even worried, about themselves, their families, and their futures. The President said that he didn't understand that fear. He said, "Why, this country is a shining city on a hill." And the President is right. In many ways we are a shining city on a hill.

But the hard truth is that not everyone is sharing in this city's splendor and glory. A shining city is perhaps all the President sees from the portico of the White House and the veranda of his ranch, where everyone seems to be doing well. But there's another city; there's another part to the shining the city; the part where some people can't pay their mortgages, and most young people can't afford one; where students can't afford the education they need, and middle-class parents watch the dreams they hold for their children evaporate.

In this part of the city there are more poor than ever, more families in trouble, more and more people who need help but can't find it. Even worse: There are elderly people who tremble in the basements of the houses there. And there are people who sleep in the city streets, in the gutter, where the glitter doesn't show. There are ghettos where thousands of young people, without a job or an education, give their lives away to drug dealers every day. There is despair, Mr. President, in the faces that you don't see, in the places that you don't visit in your shining city.

In fact, Mr. President, this is a nation -- Mr. President you ought to know that this nation is more a "Tale of Two Cities" than it is just a "Shining City on a Hill."


----------



## Poor Purl

peacegoddess said:


> I do not hate President Obama, but I am not enamored by his presidency or his many hawkish policies. I believe he is a centrist in his economic and social policies and actions and did not vote for him either time. It is time we had a viable progressive third party and we might see the beginning of one if Sanders decides to run for president.
> 
> Happy New year to all


I agree with you, though I voted for him the first time (keeping my mind fixed on Pres. Palin). Far from being a socialist, as the right would have it, he's a terrific fence-straddler.


----------



## Poor Purl

Good News, Everybody

Joeysomma has removed that poor, abused, overheated cat.


----------



## jbandsma

peacegoddess said:


> I do not hate President Obama, but I am not enamored by his presidency or his many hawkish policies. I believe he is a centrist in his economic and social policies and actions and did not vote for him either time. It is time we had a viable progressive third party and we might see the beginning of one if Sanders decides to run for president.
> 
> Happy New year to all


Have you heard of the Working Families Party? Up and coming.


----------



## SQM

Poor Purl said:


> Good News, Everybody
> 
> Joeysomma has removed that poor, abused, overheated cat.


Ha Ha. I guess I must visit D&P. I was going to choose a sloth in pjs but I was afraid of the grief I would get.

The Packer season must be over.

I have that same cat doing nada. I cannot see what it is resting on.


----------



## Camacho

cookiequeen said:


> I hope he didn't leave out the chocolate.


Oh he definitely remembered the cocoa powder. Just because I forgot to write it down does not mean that it does not need a tablespoon or two of cocoa powder. Thanks for reminding me!


----------



## DGreen

MindyT said:


> I like Bernie a lot and get his newsletters. A third party is such a long process. See: Peace and Freedom and Green parties. They never get enough votes to make them viable and allowed in "The debates". Although after the insane Republican debates of...what two years ago....it was such a joke and nothing but no, no, no, against...no policies or new ideas. And may I just say, Michelle Bachman....yee gods.
> I think it's preordained....Clinton v Bush once again. JEB is and has been running. He is just divesting himself from his really bad contacts, boards, etc. now.
> Please whoever it was that brought up Bengazi, please don't bring it up again., there have been many, many Republican-lead hesrings who concluded there is no there there. It's the only thing they have from a rather sterling career at State. Like her or not, she was effective.
> And Boehnner is ready to have yet another hearing.
> Just please get over it.


I think I brought up Benghazi - the intent was pure sarcasm! I agree there is no there, there.


----------



## NJG

damemary said:


> I would like to see the Dems prepared with ways to circumvent the obstructionism.


I just hope Obama doesn't try to do to much compromising with them. A little compromising is good, but bending over backwards and agreeing with too many of their ideas is not. He did too much of that in his first year. He needs to keep his back bone strong.


----------



## BrattyPatty

DGreen said:


> I think I brought up Benghazi - the intent was pure sarcasm! I agree there is no there, there.


Speaking of Benghazi, I received the most wonderful piece of garbage mail today. It was a farewell brochure from Michele Bachmann. It listed all of the 4 things that she has done for her district during her time in office. 
Good riddance! 
(Turning virtual cartwheels)


----------



## NJG

MindyT said:


> Do we need to print" The letter to Americans from a Canadian" again? The letter that points out all President Obama's many accomplishments? If so, I have it archived and will be glad to refresh those who "hate his policies", and believe he hates this country. Why would he hate this country when he is such a successful person? Why would he get up every day and try to figure out how to circumvent the Party of No with some meaningful work. Remember it was the evil twins, McConnell and Boenner who said...before he was inaugurated ......that it was their job to make sure nothing he wanted got passed and to make sure he was a one-term president.


It is the republicans who hate America. Anyone who would take a chance on destroying the country, just to keep a man from being successful are some sick individuals.


----------



## jbandsma

NJG said:


> I just hope Obama doesn't try to do to much compromising with them. A little compromising is good, but bending over backwards and agreeing with too many of their ideas is not. He did too much of that in his first year. He needs to keep his back bone strong.


He's the only one trying to compromise. Like I said, Lindsey Graham actually got shirty about the idea of compromise...like it was an outrageous idea.

I understand they've also petitioned dictionary publishers to remove the word 'compromise' from the lexicon.

(I haven't moved my sarcasm smiley to this computer yet so I hope it is understood)


----------



## jbandsma

BrattyPatty said:


> Speaking of Benghazi, I received the most wonderful piece of garbage mail today. It was a farewell brochure from Michele Bachmann. It listed all of the 4 things that she has done for her district during her time in office.
> Good riddance!
> (Turning virtual cartwheels)


Remember, she's got a court case coming up for misusing campaign funds. I do hope that won't be glossed over by our media. Guess I'll be watching the Dutch papers more closely to find out about it.


----------



## MarilynKnits

Poor Purl said:


> Poor Patty. That sounds worse than your everlasting cold.
> 
> But it's not worse than what I did: I made a baby sweater knitted in one piece, and when all the knitting was done except for the button band, it turned out that the two fronts were not the same size, one being 3/4 inch longer than the other. How I did this while knitting the thing in one piece I can't figure out. And I also can't figure out how to fix it without massive frogging.
> 
> Get a lot of rest before you attack the knitting again. And feel better soon.


How about a crochet border tapered in to end up making the two sides the same length and creating an original with an intriguing design feature? Fudge can be lovely!


----------



## peacegoddess

DGreen said:


> Warren/Sanders 2016!


I would only vote for such a ticket IF AND ONLY IF they ran on a third party ticket. The Democratic Party is so centrist as to be like a liberal Republican Party.

Did anyone listen to the interview with Russell brand on Democracy Now?


----------



## MarilynKnits

DGreen said:


> Benghazi!!!!


That sounds so - o - o Sheldon!


----------



## MarilynKnits

damemary said:


> Tell me why people don't vote in their best interests? I'm constantly amazed by that.


1. People are lazy. 2. Never underestimate how stupid some people can be. 3. If people are brainwashed long enough they will believe anything. 4. Remember one of the despots, Hitler or Stalin, said if you tell a lie long enough and loud enough, enough people will come to believe it. 5. And, oh, yes, people are lazy.


----------



## MindyT

Sorry DGreen, missed the sarcasm on Benghazi.
Should have known better. 
I'll tune up my sarcasm radar. Guess New Year dulled it!


----------



## NJG

MindyT said:


> I like Bernie a lot and get his newsletters. A third party is such a long process. See: Peace and Freedom and Green parties. They never get enough votes to make them viable and allowed in "The debates". Although after the insane Republican debates of...what two years ago....it was such a joke and nothing but no, no, no, against...no policies or new ideas. And may I just say, Michelle Bachman....yee gods.
> I think it's preordained....Clinton v Bush once again. JEB is and has been running. He is just divesting himself from his really bad contacts, boards, etc. now.
> Please whoever it was that brought up Bengazi, please don't bring it up again., there have been many, many Republican-lead hesrings who concluded there is no there there. It's the only thing they have from a rather sterling career at State. Like her or not, she was effective.
> And Boehnner is ready to have yet another hearing.
> Just please get over it.


As soon as she announces she will run for president, Benghazi will again explode onto the air waves. They will do everything they can to destroy her. Racism really came to the forefront when Obama was elected. Wonder if male chauvinism and feminism will do the same if Hillary runs and is elected. The republicans are such evil people.


----------



## NJG

DGreen said:


> Warren/Sanders 2016!


That would suit me just fine. I think they are both awesome. Bernie for 8 years and then Warren for the next 8.


----------



## NJG

Poor Purl said:


> We've never had enough of them.
> 
> The famous part of the San Francisco speech, directed to Reagan:
> 
> Ten days ago, President Reagan admitted that although some people in this country seemed to be doing well nowadays, others were unhappy, even worried, about themselves, their families, and their futures. The President said that he didn't understand that fear. He said, "Why, this country is a shining city on a hill." And the President is right. In many ways we are a shining city on a hill.
> 
> But the hard truth is that not everyone is sharing in this city's splendor and glory. A shining city is perhaps all the President sees from the portico of the White House and the veranda of his ranch, where everyone seems to be doing well. But there's another city; there's another part to the shining the city; the part where some people can't pay their mortgages, and most young people can't afford one; where students can't afford the education they need, and middle-class parents watch the dreams they hold for their children evaporate.
> 
> In this part of the city there are more poor than ever, more families in trouble, more and more people who need help but can't find it. Even worse: There are elderly people who tremble in the basements of the houses there. And there are people who sleep in the city streets, in the gutter, where the glitter doesn't show. There are ghettos where thousands of young people, without a job or an education, give their lives away to drug dealers every day. There is despair, Mr. President, in the faces that you don't see, in the places that you don't visit in your shining city.
> 
> In fact, Mr. President, this is a nation -- Mr. President you ought to know that this nation is more a "Tale of Two Cities" than it is just a "Shining City on a Hill."


And now take a look at how much worse it has gotten. I have asked more than once on these forums if those on the right think the income inequality we have today is a good thing, but they don't answer. The tough questions they don't have an answer for.


----------



## NJG

BrattyPatty said:


> Speaking of Benghazi, I received the most wonderful piece of garbage mail today. It was a farewell brochure from Michele Bachmann. It listed all of the 4 things that she has done for her district during her time in office.
> Good riddance!
> (Turning virtual cartwheels)


All of the "4 things." I like that. She was a laugh a minute.


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> Remember, she's got a court case coming up for misusing campaign funds. I do hope that won't be glossed over by our media. Guess I'll be watching the Dutch papers more closely to find out about it.


I would love to see her in an orange jump suit.


----------



## DGreen

peacegoddess said:


> I would only vote for such a ticket IF AND ONLY IF they ran on a third party ticket. The Democratic Party is so centrist as to be like a liberal Republican Party.
> 
> Did anyone listen to the interview with Russell brand on Democracy Now?


I don't care what party they run on - they would be infinitely better than anyone on the republican ticket. Electability - prime consideration.


----------



## Camacho

peacegoddess said:


> I do not hate President Obama, but I am not enamored by his presidency or his many hawkish policies. I believe he is a centrist in his economic and social policies and actions and did not vote for him either time. It is time we had a viable progressive third party and we might see the beginning of one if Sanders decides to run for president.
> 
> Happy New year to all


Yes! We do need a viable progressive third party. We need at least three parties. How about four or five? Along with that we need Instant Runoff Voting and every single candidate participating in the debates.


----------



## NJG

MarilynKnits said:


> 1. People are lazy. 2. Never underestimate how stupid some people can be. 3. If people are brainwashed long enough they will believe anything. 4. Remember one of the despots, Hitler or Stalin, said if you tell a lie long enough and loud enough, enough people will come to believe it. 5. And, oh, yes, people are lazy.


#4 is so correct. They still believe that President Obama had "complete control" of congress for his first 2 years. How many times have we heard that? Joey has said over and over that republicans can no longer use the filibuster because Harry got rid of it. I have corrected her more than once that it is just for nominations, but she still repeats it.


----------



## NJG

Camacho said:


> Yes! We do need a viable progressive third party. We need at least three parties. How about four or five? Along with that we need Instant Runoff Voting and every single candidate participating in the debates.


And I think we need mandatory voting, or as close to it as we can get. Republicans would hate that as they don't want all "those people" to vote.


----------



## Designer1234

Hi everyone [[[ Have been back in the hospital since Monday and just
home will fill you in later. I am okay. going to have sleep. ttyla.


----------



## NJG

Designer1234 said:


> Hi everyone [[[ Have been back in the hospital since Monday and just
> home will fill you in later. I am okay. going to have sleep. ttyla.


So sorry to hear that Shirley. Please take care of yourself and get lots of rest.


----------



## peacegoddess

Richard Wolff's latest broadcast is really great. Talks about alternative parties in Greece and France, the sad affect of charity and welfare on society and more. You can access him on Truthout his site by googling Richard
D Wolff


----------



## cookiequeen

Poor Purl said:


> We've never had enough of them.
> 
> The famous part of the San Francisco speech, directed to Reagan:
> 
> Ten days ago, President Reagan admitted that although some people in this country seemed to be doing well nowadays, others were unhappy, even worried, about themselves, their families, and their futures. The President said that he didn't understand that fear. He said, "Why, this country is a shining city on a hill." And the President is right. In many ways we are a shining city on a hill.
> 
> But the hard truth is that not everyone is sharing in this city's splendor and glory. A shining city is perhaps all the President sees from the portico of the White House and the veranda of his ranch, where everyone seems to be doing well. But there's another city; there's another part to the shining the city; the part where some people can't pay their mortgages, and most young people can't afford one; where students can't afford the education they need, and middle-class parents watch the dreams they hold for their children evaporate.
> 
> In this part of the city there are more poor than ever, more families in trouble, more and more people who need help but can't find it. Even worse: There are elderly people who tremble in the basements of the houses there. And there are people who sleep in the city streets, in the gutter, where the glitter doesn't show. There are ghettos where thousands of young people, without a job or an education, give their lives away to drug dealers every day. There is despair, Mr. President, in the faces that you don't see, in the places that you don't visit in your shining city.
> 
> In fact, Mr. President, this is a nation -- Mr. President you ought to know that this nation is more a "Tale of Two Cities" than it is just a "Shining City on a Hill."


And true today


----------



## cookiequeen

Designer1234 said:


> Hi everyone [[[ Have been back in the hospital since Monday and just
> home will fill you in later. I am okay. going to have sleep. ttyla.


Take care Shirley and get out of there!


----------



## MarilynKnits

Designer1234 said:


> Hi everyone [[[ Have been back in the hospital since Monday and just
> home will fill you in later. I am okay. going to have sleep. ttyla.


I am signing off soon for the Sabbath and probably won't be back on line until tomorrow night the earliest.

Just wanted to wish you well and hope you feel better and stay better. May 2015 be a good year for you, Pat, and your family.


----------



## SQM

Sorry to hear that you were under the weather, Shirley, but am glad you are home again. Have a healthy 2015. Now that you are back, we have to stop talking about you. (Just kidding.)


----------



## MarilynKnits

If the people who are anti Mr. Obama dropped the rancor and blind hatred and gave positive suggestions as to how to move the country in a better direction, maybe there would be room for discussion. All we hear are what Mr. Agnew called "the nattering nabobs of negativity".

If the economy is down the loo, what steps could be taken to move toward recovery?

If there is too much welfare, what steps could be taken to help people be more self sufficient so they would not need public assistance?

If the education system is in a shambles, what steps could be taken to review, revise, and develop an effective education system? How could it be made consistent throughout the nation so there would not be states with miserable approaches to public education?

If unemployment is rampant, what steps could be taken to create jobs that would support people above the poverty line? 

How could task forces be created to analyze and address all the problems within our society and develop viable processes to alleviate the problems?

Come on, folks who "hate" the President, who "hate" what he stands for, who decry the condition of the country. Offer some positive solutions. If you are not party to offering ideas or developing solutions, you are part of the problem.


----------



## jbandsma

MarilynKnits said:


> If the people who are anti Mr. Obama dropped the rancor and blind hatred and gave positive suggestions as to how to move the country in a better direction, maybe there would be room for discussion. All we hear are what Mr. Agnew called "the nattering nabobs of negativity".
> 
> If the economy is down the loo, what steps could be taken to move toward recovery?
> 
> If there is too much welfare, what steps could be taken to help people be more self sufficient so they would not need public assistance?
> 
> If the education system is in a shambles, what steps could be taken to review, revise, and develop an effective education system? How could it be made consistent throughout the nation so there would not be states with miserable approaches to public education?
> 
> If unemployment is rampant, what steps could be taken to create jobs that would support people above the poverty line?
> 
> How could task forces be created to analyze and address all the problems within our society and develop viable processes to alleviate the problems?
> 
> Come on, folks who "hate" the President, who "hate" what he stands for, who decry the condition of the country. Offer some positive solutions. If you are not party to offering ideas or developing solutions, you are part of the problem.


And that's just what the president himself has been saying..."sit down with me and let's work on some of these things". Then they scream that he's not willing to work with them when their idea of working with him is that they should get everything they want and not ever have to give anything in return.


----------



## peacegoddess

How about he gave support for the prosecution of Jamie Diamond and his ilk instead of the extremely expensive bailout that cost this country so many millions. How about putting those millions into real job creation with real support of alternative energy sources. Rebuild schools and fund universal preschool. End the drone strikes and engage in real and sincere diplomatic relations with governments and demonstrate to Middle Eastern people we are interested in relations with them and not just lusting for their oil and land for military bases. Get the U S the hell out of creating economic disasters with such agreements like the Asian Pacific Trade Treaty. How about working on real immigration reform? 

I would respect him if he had gone in on his first term and worked for these issues without thinking how it would translate into returning for a second term.


----------



## Designer1234

Designer1234 said:


> Hi everyone [[[ Have been back in the hospital since Monday and just
> home will fill you in later. I am okay. going to have sleep. ttyla.


I am back thank heavens. Seemed I was there for ever.

Sorry I havent been around for awhile. Another time in the hospital again, They discovered I had a really bad kidney infection so spent the days getting massive amounts of antibiotics and fluids - they finally got rid of the infection but are not sure of the after affects. Have 3 apptments in next while. {possibility of the necessity for further action and was told to lie low for awhile and build up my strength. Tamarque I have pmd you. I have cancelled all the upcoming workshops until I know what is happening, darn it.

Feeling much better and am going for a lie down.


----------



## Poor Purl

DGreen said:


> I think I brought up Benghazi - the intent was pure sarcasm! I agree there is no there, there.


I caught it, but when I went to find an appropriate emoticon, I discovered that my favorite one is no longer usable and spent the next half hour (I swear, I was that determined) looking for another site that had it, but to no avail. By then, I gave it all up.

But I got the next best thing:


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> He's the only one trying to compromise. Like I said, Lindsey Graham actually got shirty about the idea of compromise...like it was an outrageous idea.
> 
> I understand they've also petitioned dictionary publishers to remove the word 'compromise' from the lexicon.
> 
> (I haven't moved my sarcasm smiley to this computer yet so I hope it is understood)


Want it back?


----------



## DGreen

Poor Purl said:


> I caught it, but when I went to find an appropriate emoticon, I discovered that my favorite one is no longer usable and spent the next half hour (I swear, I was that determined) looking for another site that had it, but to no avail. By then, I gave it all up.
> 
> But I got the next best thing:


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> And that's just what the president himself has been saying..."sit down with me and let's work on some of these things". Then they scream that he's not willing to work with them when their idea of working with him is that they should get everything they want and not ever have to give anything in return.


and all they ever want is lower taxes and to strip everything from the budget except military spending and their pet pork barrel projects. And laws against gays, women and decent education.


----------



## Poor Purl

MarilynKnits said:


> How about a crochet border tapered in to end up making the two sides the same length and creating an original with an intriguing design feature? Fudge can be lovely!


This sounds good, but I don't understand it.

I knit borders on with size 2 needles for the longer side and size 3 for the shorter, and it worked. It took me two weeks to think of that strategy.


----------



## Poor Purl

NJG said:


> And now take a look at how much worse it has gotten. I have asked more than once on these forums if those on the right think the income inequality we have today is a good thing, but they don't answer. The tough questions they don't have an answer for.


I think if pressed they still say "Someone who works hard for his money should be allowed to keep it" <I hope my mushy conservative voice came through>. Even if by "working hard," they mean squeezing every penny out their workers that they possibly can.


----------



## Poor Purl

Designer1234 said:


> Hi everyone [[[ Have been back in the hospital since Monday and just
> home will fill you in later. I am okay. going to have sleep. ttyla.


Sorry to hear that, Shirley. I'll wait to see what else you have to say.


----------



## MindyT

Oh, and they will typically say, " I worked hard for what I've got".
Like the rest if us are chopped liver because we didn't make a killing as stock brokers, or manage a corporation, or inherit and invest.
"little people" work damn hard too.


----------



## Poor Purl

Designer1234 said:


> I am back thank heavens. Seemed I was there for ever.
> 
> Sorry I havent been around for awhile. Another time in the hospital again, They discovered I had a really bad kidney infection so spent the days getting massive amounts of antibiotics and fluids - they finally got rid of the infection but are not sure of the after affects. Have 3 apptments in next while. {possibility of the necessity for further action and was told to lie low for awhile and build up my strength. Tamarque I have pmd you. I have cancelled all the upcoming workshops until I know what is happening, darn it.
> 
> Feeling much better and am going for a lie down.


Kidney problems are exhausting. My 18-year-old, 4 lb. 10 oz. cat has some kidney issues, and we have to inject water under her skin every 2 days to keep the kidneys working. Would you want Pat to do that for you? You could get a treat afterward, like the cat.


----------



## Poor Purl

MindyT said:


> Oh, and they will typically say, " I worked hard for what I've got".
> Like the rest if us are chopped liver because we didn't make a killing as stock brokers, or manage a corporation, or inherit and invest.
> "little people" work damn hard too.


This just reminded me of a funny cartoon in The New Yorker. At least I think it's funny; therefore, it is.


----------



## jbandsma

Poor Purl said:


> Want it back?


Thanks.


----------



## jbandsma

MindyT said:


> Oh, and they will typically say, " I worked hard for what I've got".
> Like the rest if us are chopped liver because we didn't make a killing as stock brokers, or manage a corporation, or inherit and invest.
> "little people" work damn hard too.


Most of them 'earned' their money the second old fashioned way...they inherited it from somebody who DID work hard and probably had a 90% tax rate.

(First way is stole it)


----------



## DGreen

This is for you, Purl. And for everyone else who mourns this good man.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> Most of them 'earned' their money the second old fashioned way...they inherited it from somebody who DID work hard and probably had a 90% tax rate.
> 
> (First way is stole it)


The 90% tax rate is key. History has PROVED that high taxes on the highest "earners" results in prosperity for them and everyone else down the line. Observe the result when Regan lowered the tax rate. We all suffer.


----------



## Designer1234

Poor Purl said:


> This sounds good, but I don't understand it.
> 
> I knit borders on with size 2 needles for the longer side and size 3 for the shorter, and it worked. It took me two weeks to think of that strategy.


that is what I Call a design element!


----------



## Poor Purl

DGreen said:


> This is for you, Purl. And for everyone else who mourns this good man.


Thank you. He was the best speaker this country had, probably since Adlai Stevenson. And his heart showed in every speech.


----------



## damemary

Bazinga Benghazi! (reminds me of bungie jumping)



MarilynKnits said:


> That sounds so - o - o Sheldon!


----------



## damemary

I hate to be negative, but I agree. Sanders/Warren wouldn't have a snowball's chance of being elected.



DGreen said:


> I don't care what party they run on - they would be infinitely better than anyone on the republican ticket. Electability - prime consideration.


----------



## damemary

I think the media should offer a number of debates with objective monitors and tough questions. Easier electronic voting time has come.



Camacho said:


> Yes! We do need a viable progressive third party. We need at least three parties. How about four or five? Along with that we need Instant Runoff Voting and every single candidate participating in the debates.


----------



## damemary

Hi Shirley. Hang in there. fondly


----------



## damemary

MarilynKnits said:


> If the people who are anti Mr. Obama dropped the rancor and blind hatred and gave positive suggestions as to how to move the country in a better direction, maybe there would be room for discussion. All we hear are what Mr. Agnew called "the nattering nabobs of negativity".
> 
> If the economy is down the loo, what steps could be taken to move toward recovery?
> 
> If there is too much welfare, what steps could be taken to help people be more self sufficient so they would not need public assistance?
> 
> If the education system is in a shambles, what steps could be taken to review, revise, and develop an effective education system? How could it be made consistent throughout the nation so there would not be states with miserable approaches to public education?
> 
> If unemployment is rampant, what steps could be taken to create jobs that would support people above the poverty line?
> 
> How could task forces be created to analyze and address all the problems within our society and develop viable processes to alleviate the problems?
> 
> Come on, folks who "hate" the President, who "hate" what he stands for, who decry the condition of the country. Offer some positive solutions. If you are not party to offering ideas or developing solutions, you are part of the problem.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary

There are three branches of government and a system of checks and balances. In this case the Congress brought it all to a standstill. I don't blame the Executive Branch entirely.



peacegoddess said:


> How about he gave support for the prosecution of Jamie Diamond and his ilk instead of the extremely expensive bailout that cost this country so many millions. How about putting those millions into real job creation with real support of alternative energy sources. Rebuild schools and fund universal preschool. End the drone strikes and engage in real and sincere diplomatic relations with governments and demonstrate to Middle Eastern people we are interested in relations with them and not just lusting for their oil and land for military bases. Get the U S the hell out of creating economic disasters with such agreements like the Asian Pacific Trade Treaty. How about working on real immigration reform?
> 
> I would respect him if he had gone in on his first term and worked for these issues without thinking how it would translate into returning for a second term.


----------



## damemary

Nothing more than naps and knitting. hugs



Designer1234 said:


> I am back thank heavens. Seemed I was there for ever.
> 
> Sorry I havent been around for awhile. Another time in the hospital again, They discovered I had a really bad kidney infection so spent the days getting massive amounts of antibiotics and fluids - they finally got rid of the infection but are not sure of the after affects. Have 3 apptments in next while. {possibility of the necessity for further action and was told to lie low for awhile and build up my strength. Tamarque I have pmd you. I have cancelled all the upcoming workshops until I know what is happening, darn it.
> 
> Feeling much better and am going for a lie down.


----------



## damemary

Poor Purl said:


> I think if pressed they still say "Someone who works hard for his money should be allowed to keep it" <I hope my mushy conservative voice came through>. Even if by "working hard," they mean squeezing every penny out their workers that they possibly can.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: And shame on them.


----------



## damemary

Such a fine statesman with a way with words. I'll miss him always.



DGreen said:


> This is for you, Purl. And for everyone else who mourns this good man.


----------



## Camacho

damemary said:


> I think the media should offer a number of debates with objective monitors and tough questions. Easier electronic voting time has come.


Definitely.


----------



## jbandsma

damemary said:


> I hate to be negative, but I agree. Sanders/Warren wouldn't have a snowball's chance of being elected.


Not to mention that they really can do more good where they are.


----------



## Poor Purl

damemary said:


> Bazinga Benghazi! (reminds me of bungie jumping)


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl

damemary said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: And shame on them.


And now they will complain that you're being mean to them. They don't like it when the proles say mean things about them.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

MarilynKnits said:


> If the people who are anti Mr. Obama dropped the rancor and blind hatred and gave positive suggestions as to how to move the country in a better direction, maybe there would be room for discussion. All we hear are what Mr. Agnew called "the nattering nabobs of negativity".
> 
> If the economy is down the loo, what steps could be taken to move toward recovery?
> 
> If there is too much welfare, what steps could be taken to help people be more self sufficient so they would not need public assistance?
> 
> If the education system is in a shambles, what steps could be taken to review, revise, and develop an effective education system? How could it be made consistent throughout the nation so there would not be states with miserable approaches to public education?
> 
> If unemployment is rampant, what steps could be taken to create jobs that would support people above the poverty line?
> 
> How could task forces be created to analyze and address all the problems within our society and develop viable processes to alleviate the problems?
> 
> Come on, folks who "hate" the President, who "hate" what he stands for, who decry the condition of the country. Offer some positive solutions. If you are not party to offering ideas or developing solutions, you are part of the problem.


I'm going to respond to this post, and then I'm done. I get so tired of each side asking questions and then dismissing the answers because they don't like them. It's a futile waste of time.

I've ONE solution to all of these problems. GET RID OF OUR CORRUPT GOVERNMENT! Everything that's wrong with our country goes back to that. You want to fix the economy, reduce or eliminate unemployment and public assistance? Elect a government that puts the needs of the people over the greed and power of corporations. We're a consumer nation. Our consumption should provide jobs for all. The corporations got the government to pass laws which allowed them to send the jobs out of the country while bringing the goods back in, without tariffs, thus reaping obscene profits. Unless we have a government that enacts laws for the good of the people, nothing will get better. There can be no recovery without jobs! We need a government that is not owned by those with money. We need a government that is of the people, by the people and for the people! Early Americans knew this but we don't because we've been brainwashed by a crappy educational system.

The same is true of education. The government has allowed corporations to take over education in this country. Just look at Bill Gates' common core. Corporations don't want to breed competition, they want worker bees, those with just enough education to work for them. Common core is sweeping the nation. It's no more than a system of control. They're creating data bases on us and deciding who among us, should be educated or not. They're rewriting history and brainwashing our children into submission. They're creating a population that are too ignorant to recognize their own enslavement.

Unless the American people wake up and recognize what's happening, there's no hope. Apathy won't fix it! Arguing over which side is right and which side is wrong, won't fix it! Neither side is right! They're all corrupt. They're all owned. If the hundreds of millions of people won't change things, nothing will change!


----------



## SQM

Bill Gates, et al, are not looking for menial labor - they are looking for highly- skilled workers to work in technology.


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> Bill Gates, et al, are not looking for menial labor - they are looking for highly- skilled workers to work in technology.


for barely above minimum wage...and are not above using imported "guest workers" from other countries who are not treated very well.
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/Silicon-Valleys-Body-Shop-Secret-280567322.html


----------



## SQM

Were you treated well in the workplace? I certainly was not in some instances. And being in education, I made bubkas.


----------



## damemary

Free speech. Too bad.



Poor Purl said:


> And now they will complain that you're being mean to them. They don't like it when the proles say mean things about them.


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> Were you treated well in the workplace? I certainly was not in some instances. And being in education, I made bubkas.


Being female also presents its own problems. Lower pay for the same work, harassment from male co-workers and the attitude that you should feel "flattered" at crude jokes or the fact that your boss couldn't tell you what color your eyes are but could hit your bra size with a glance.

And, it has become really funny today when your prospective employer wants to know if you're taking birth control so he can exclude it from health care benefits...or not hire you at all. I remember the days when job applications asked what kind of birth control you used and you'd be excluded from consideration if you said 'none'.


----------



## jbandsma

The only way to get rid of a "corrupt" government is to get rid of the money. In our case, work to overturn Citizens United. The average citizen has no chance as long as corporations...even foreign corporations...are permitted to buy the elections.


----------



## damemary

Have you experienced any other governments? IMHO USA ain't so bad.

What would you replace this 'corrupt government' with?

Bill and Melinda Gates are using most of their fortune and energy to vaccinate the third world and bring clean water. I wouldn't criticize them.

Comments, please.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm going to respond to this post, and then I'm done. I get so tired of each side asking questions and then dismissing the answers because they don't like them. It's a futile waste of time.
> 
> I've ONE solution to all of these problems. GET RID OF OUR CORRUPT GOVERNMENT! Everything that's wrong with our country goes back to that. You want to fix the economy, reduce or eliminate unemployment and public assistance? Elect a government that puts the needs of the people over the greed and power of corporations. We're a consumer nation. Our consumption should provide jobs for all. The corporations got the government to pass laws which allowed them to send the jobs out of the country while bringing the goods back in, without tariffs, thus reaping obscene profits. Unless we have a government that enacts laws for the good of the people, nothing will get better. There can be no recovery without jobs! We need a government that is not owned by those with money. We need a government that is of the people, by the people and for the people! Early Americans knew this but we don't because we've been brainwashed by a crappy educational system.
> 
> The same is true of education. The government has allowed corporations to take over education in this country. Just look at Bill Gates' common core. Corporations don't want to breed competition, they want worker bees, those with just enough education to work for them. Common core is sweeping the nation. It's no more than a system of control. They're creating data bases on us and deciding who among us, should be educated or not. They're rewriting history and brainwashing our children into submission. They're creating a population that are too ignorant to recognize their own enslavement.
> 
> Unless the American people wake up and recognize what's happening, there's no hope. Apathy won't fix it! Arguing over which side is right and which side is wrong, won't fix it! Neither side is right! They're all corrupt. They're all owned. If the hundreds of millions of people won't change things, nothing will change!


----------



## damemary

SQM said:


> Bill Gates, et al, are not looking for menial labor - they are looking for highly- skilled workers to work in technology.


They also look for technology to bring refrigeration to allow them to transport vaccines to Third World countries. And seek others to deliver clean wells and piping to deliver water to those forced to haul water by hand from ground water.


----------



## damemary

In some places, I was treated quite well. Others, not so good. Guess where I stayed and where I left.



SQM said:


> Were you treated well in the workplace? I certainly was not in some instances. And being in education, I made bubkas.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> The only way to get rid of a "corrupt" government is to get rid of the money. In our case, work to overturn Citizens United. The average citizen has no chance as long as corporations...even foreign corporations...are permitted to buy the elections.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary

In an interview, remember you are interviewing the prospective employer also. They're wasting everyone's time.



jbandsma said:


> Being female also presents its own problems. Lower pay for the same work, harassment from male co-workers and the attitude that you should feel "flattered" at crude jokes or the fact that your boss couldn't tell you what color your eyes are but could hit your bra size with a glance.
> 
> And, it has become really funny today when your prospective employer wants to know if you're taking birth control so he can exclude it from health care benefits...or not hire you at all. I remember the days when job applications asked what kind of birth control you used and you'd be excluded from consideration if you said 'none'.


----------



## peacegoddess

damemary said:


> Have you experienced any other governments? IMHO USA ain't so bad.
> 
> What would you replace this 'corrupt government' with?
> 
> Bill and Melinda Gates are using most of their fortune and energy to vaccinate the third world and bring clean water. I wouldn't criticize them.
> 
> Comments, please.


You might check out these articles before you put the Gates 
foundation on a pedestal.

newint.org The flip side toBill Gates charity billions

npr.org. As Gates foundation grows, critics question methods

the nation.com. How the Gates foundation is undermining its own... 8/22/2014


----------



## Poor Purl

damemary said:


> Have you experienced any other governments? IMHO USA ain't so bad.
> 
> What would you replace this 'corrupt government' with?
> 
> Bill and Melinda Gates are using most of their fortune and energy to vaccinate the third world and bring clean water. I wouldn't criticize them.
> 
> Comments, please.


Here's mine: Our "corrupt" government has gone very far toward repairing the economy that the other crony capitalists left us with. It has also enacted laws to meet the needs of the people, such as the ACA and, its first major piece of legislation, the Lily Ledbetter Act. What's really getting in the way of doing things is that too many voters have been convinced that the word "liberal" is dirty and will run to the furthest extreme to keep away from it. They vote for candidates who call themselves conservatives (though nobody has been able to tell me what they want to conserve other than the very broken _status quo_), even though those candidates want the exact opposite of what the people need.


----------



## Designer1234

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm going to respond to this post, and then I'm done. I get so tired of each side asking questions and then dismissing the answers because they don't like them. It's a futile waste of time.
> 
> I've ONE solution to all of these problems. GET RID OF OUR CORRUPT GOVERNMENT!
> 
> Unless the American people wake up and recognize what's happening, there's no hope. Apathy won't fix it! Arguing over which side is right and which side is wrong, won't fix it! Neither side is right! They're all corrupt. They're all owned. If the hundreds of millions of people won't change things, nothing will change!


-----------
I think most of the people here agree with what is needed, however, how do you do it? It is fine to say that 'this and that' needs to be done - but how do you suggest this be accomplished? I don't think it is lack of approval, but it is the difficulty of accomplishing what you are talking about. What is your answer. How do you change the vote so that others agree. Most of the people on this thread spend hours trying to do just that- or at least to try to change things for the good. It is fine to know the answer but that doesn't help with figuring out how to reach that goal. jmo

you say  I get so tired of each side asking questions and then dismissing the answers because they don't like them. It's a futile waste of time.

I do not remember anyone dismissing your ideas but it is in my opinion just about impossible to reach your objective without a civil war and that is pretty serious. I doubt any American wants a civil war. but what is your answer as to HOW?

I am a Canadian and my opinions are not important, but - you accuse 'everyone of dismissing your posts. It is also a possibility that some might not completely agree with you. They have that right. Come up with the answer as to how to change things that much and I am sure there would be lots of conversation. I am pretty darned sure that It is just about impossible for change until Americans all want change- many many don't seem to want to change the status quo.


----------



## Designer1234

MarilynKnits said:


> If the people who are anti Mr. Obama dropped the rancor and blind hatred and gave positive suggestions as to how to move the country in a better direction, maybe there would be room for discussion. All we hear are what Mr. Agnew called "the nattering nabobs of negativity".
> 
> If the economy is down the loo, what steps could be taken to move toward recovery?
> 
> *If there is too much welfare, what steps could be taken to help people be more self sufficient so they would not need public assistance*?
> 
> *If the education system is in a shambles, what steps could be taken to review, revise, and develop an effective education system*? How could it be made consistent throughout the nation so there would not be states with miserable approaches to public education?
> 
> *If unemployment is rampant, what steps could be taken to create jobs that would support people above the poverty line*?
> 
> How could task forces be created to analyze and address all the problems within our society and develop viable processes to alleviate the problems?
> 
> Come on, folks who "hate" the President, who "hate" what he stands for, who decry the condition of the country. Offer some positive solutions. If you are not party to offering ideas or developing solutions, you are part of the problem.


---------------------------------
I think your post is spot on. It is fine to say you have to 
get rid of the Government -- but certainly all your points could be done in my opinion. However, when there is such a divide between the parties and even in the Republican party itself - there doesn't seem to be much interest in following up on these ideas. I agree with them l00% looking at it from my perspection as an outsider.

The hard part is to find a way that the majority of Americans are interested in doing these things.


----------



## jbandsma

I just looked it up. Corporations may donate any amount of money to a political campaign and, under Citizens United, the candidate is only required to disclose what PAC donated to him/her, not the individual contributors or the amount they donated.

They ARE required, however, to report any contribution from an individual that is $200 or more. Your name, address, etc.

This where CU could easily be overturned if someone would just push it. The supreme court has declared that corporations are 'persons'. To me persons are individuals. Individuals must be listed for donating more than $200. 

How fast would that get the money out of campaigns?

But I am of the opinion of the poster I saw..."I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one."


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> I just looked it up. Corporations may donate any amount of money to a political campaign and, under Citizens United, the candidate is only required to disclose what PAC donated to him/her, not the individual contributors or the amount they donated.
> 
> They ARE required, however, to report any contribution from an individual that is $200 or more. Your name, address, etc.
> 
> This where CU could easily be overturned if someone would just push it. The supreme court has declared that corporations are 'persons'. To me persons are individuals. Individuals must be listed for donating more than $200.
> 
> How fast would that get the money out of campaigns?
> 
> But I am of the opinion of the poster I saw..."I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one."


Citizens United CANNOT be easily overturned. It is a Supreme Court decision - the highest court in the US and their decision was based on their interpretation of constitutional law. The only way to overturn it is a constitutional amendment, or for the Supreme Court to reverse themselves in some subsequent case.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> I just looked it up. Corporations may donate any amount of money to a political campaign and, under Citizens United, the candidate is only required to disclose what PAC donated to him/her, not the individual contributors or the amount they donated.
> 
> They ARE required, however, to report any contribution from an individual that is $200 or more. Your name, address, etc.
> 
> This where CU could easily be overturned if someone would just push it. The supreme court has declared that corporations are 'persons'. To me persons are individuals. Individuals must be listed for donating more than $200.
> 
> How fast would that get the money out of campaigns?
> 
> But I am of the opinion of the poster I saw..."I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one."


Additionally, a more recent SCOTUS decision pretty much obliterated the limits on individual campaign donations.

Our democracy is up for sale to those with the most money.


----------



## NJG

MarilynKnits said:


> If the people who are anti Mr. Obama dropped the rancor and blind hatred and gave positive suggestions as to how to move the country in a better direction, maybe there would be room for discussion. All we hear are what Mr. Agnew called "the nattering nabobs of negativity".
> 
> If the economy is down the loo, what steps could be taken to move toward recovery?
> 
> If there is too much welfare, what steps could be taken to help people be more self sufficient so they would not need public assistance?
> 
> If the education system is in a shambles, what steps could be taken to review, revise, and develop an effective education system? How could it be made consistent throughout the nation so there would not be states with miserable approaches to public education?
> 
> If unemployment is rampant, what steps could be taken to create jobs that would support people above the poverty line?
> 
> How could task forces be created to analyze and address all the problems within our society and develop viable processes to alleviate the problems?
> 
> Come on, folks who "hate" the President, who "hate" what he stands for, who decry the condition of the country. Offer some positive solutions. If you are not party to offering ideas or developing solutions, you are part of the problem.


Some very good questions, but the left and right will have different ways to get these thing accomplished. When your main goal is to keep someone from being elected, you are not using your position for the right purpose. Maybe it is time for term limits. You have 6 years to accomplish something worthwhile and if your record of accomplishments doesn't line up with your goals when you entered office, you owe the government part of your salary back as a tax. That would hopefully weed out some of these 80 year olds that use to live with dinosaurs, like Charles Grassley who continues to try to make me believe he votes with the people of Iowa in mind.

The left would say to create jobs by investing in infrastructure, increasing the minimum wage would put more money into the economy and get people off of welfare, but the right would say tax cuts, especially for those job creators. Even though it has been tried and didn't work, they still say that.

The right would just keep cutting welfare and food stamps and not worry about those that would loose their benefits as they would be on their own. However if you did the things in the previous paragraph, it would help in this area too. Republicans will never agree to it.

The right wants to get rid of the dept of ed, and privatize everything. The private company that is formed to make money off of education will put their money where they get the most return on their investment. Schools in poor areas will get the least which will create more of the problem they want to get rid of. Money and profit is the deciding factor of everything they do.

The problem with a task force is that is the easy part. Then you have to be willing to do the recommended things. Compromise use to be something congress could do, but not any more.


----------



## peacegoddess

Designer1234 said:


> ---------------------------------
> I think your post is spot on. It is fine to say you have to
> get rid of the Government -- but certainly all your points could be done in my opinion. However, when there is such a divide between the parties and even in the Republican party itself - there doesn't seem to be much interest in following up on these ideas. I agree with them l00% looking at it from my perspection as an outsider.
> 
> The hard part is to find a way that the majority of Americans are interested in doing these things.


If you closely examine the economic, military/foreign, and environmental policies of both major American political parties you will notice there is very little substantial differences. Many democrats no longer support unrestricted choice, most dems supported the egregious trade agreements, many support drone attacks, many are not supportive of strict environmental restrictions of businesses, President Obama accepted huge donations from corporations and his bailout of the banks borders on criminal.


----------



## MindyT

jbandsma said:


> I just looked it up. Corporations may donate any amount of money to a political campaign and, under Citizens United, the candidate is only required to disclose what PAC donated to him/her, not the individual contributors or the amount they donated.
> 
> They ARE required, however, to report any contribution from an individual that is $200 or more. Your name, address, etc.
> 
> This where CU could easily be overturned if someone would just push it. The supreme court has declared that corporations are 'persons'. To me persons are individuals. Individuals must be listed for donating more than $200.
> 
> How fast would that get the money out of campaigns?
> 
> But I am of the opinion of the poster I saw..."I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one."


 Yes, yes, and a resounding yes. Join and sign anything that is for the closing down of Citizens United. What an evil decision.oh reminds me, for those who think it doesn't make any difference who is president, think Supreme Court. It does make a difference. Look at the ultra conservative court we have today.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> The only way to get rid of a "corrupt" government is to get rid of the money. In our case, work to overturn Citizens United. The average citizen has no chance as long as corporations...even foreign corporations...are permitted to buy the elections.


Precisely. Which is what I am actively working for.


----------



## jbandsma

MindyT said:


> Yes, yes, and a resounding yes. Join and sign anything that is for the closing down of Citizens United. What an evil decision.oh reminds me, for those who think it doesn't make any difference who is president, think Supreme Court. It does make a difference. Look at the ultra conservative court we have today.


And look at the horrible decisions they have made. Not to mention the horrible things they have said. Scalia, especially...'freedom of religion only applies to christianity', 'actual innocence is no reason to free a person convicted by a jury (even if the person received the death sentence)', 'individuals have NO constitutional right to police protection',

In his dissent in Lawrence, Scalia argued that moral objections to homosexuality were sufficient justification for criminalizing gay sex.

At a recent lecture at the University of California Hastings College of Law, Scalia decided to expound on his view that the U.S. Constitution does not prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation or, for that matter, sex based discrimination. He said that from the 1970s onward, the courts had wrongly been applying the 14th Amendments guarantee of equal protection because it was never intended to apply that way. (Remember, the same section of the 14th also applies to color)

In discussing the Aurora shootings earlier this year, Justice Scalia told a Fox news host that he firmly backed the right to bear arms, clarifying this did not include manning a cannon but that there might be an argument for carrying a rocket launcher.

So many more.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> And look at the horrible decisions they have made. Not to mention the horrible things they have said. Scalia, especially...'freedom of religion only applies to christianity', 'actual innocence is no reason to free a person convicted by a jury (even if the person received the death sentence)', 'individuals have NO constitutional right to police protection',
> 
> In his dissent in Lawrence, Scalia argued that moral objections to homosexuality were sufficient justification for criminalizing gay sex.
> 
> At a recent lecture at the University of California Hastings College of Law, Scalia decided to expound on his view that the U.S. Constitution does not prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation or, for that matter, sex based discrimination. He said that from the 1970s onward, the courts had wrongly been applying the 14th Amendments guarantee of equal protection because it was never intended to apply that way. (Remember, the same section of the 14th also applies to color)
> 
> In discussing the Aurora shootings earlier this year, Justice Scalia told a Fox news host that he firmly backed the right to bear arms, clarifying this did not include manning a cannon but that there might be an argument for carrying a rocket launcher.
> 
> So many more.


He's a menace and should be impeached.


----------



## Poor Purl

Designer1234 said:


> -----------
> I think most of the people here agree with what is needed, however, how do you do it? It is fine to say that 'this and that' needs to be done - but how do you suggest this be accomplished? I don't think it is lack of approval, but it is the difficulty of accomplishing what you are talking about. What is your answer. How do you change the vote so that others agree. Most of the people on this thread spend hours trying to do just that- or at least to try to change things for the good. It is fine to know the answer but that doesn't help with figuring out how to reach that goal. jmo
> 
> you say  I get so tired of each side asking questions and then dismissing the answers because they don't like them. It's a futile waste of time.
> 
> I do not remember anyone dismissing your ideas but it is in my opinion just about impossible to reach your objective without a civil war and that is pretty serious. I doubt any American wants a civil war. but what is your answer as to HOW?
> 
> I am a Canadian and my opinions are not important, but - you accuse 'everyone of dismissing your posts. It is also a possibility that some might not completely agree with you. They have that right. Come up with the answer as to how to change things that much and I am sure there would be lots of conversation. I am pretty darned sure that It is just about impossible for change until Americans all want change- many many don't seem to want to change the status quo.


You raise the most important question: how do we accomplish what needs to be done? what are the steps that need to be taken? You must be feeling better; at least your brain is working extremely well.


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> I just looked it up. Corporations may donate any amount of money to a political campaign and, under Citizens United, the candidate is only required to disclose what PAC donated to him/her, not the individual contributors or the amount they donated.
> 
> They ARE required, however, to report any contribution from an individual that is $200 or more. Your name, address, etc.
> 
> This where CU could easily be overturned if someone would just push it. The supreme court has declared that corporations are 'persons'. To me persons are individuals. Individuals must be listed for donating more than $200.
> 
> How fast would that get the money out of campaigns?
> 
> But I am of the opinion of the poster I saw..."I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one."


What you write here implies that corporate "persons" have more rights than individual persons. How un-American.


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> And look at the horrible decisions they have made. Not to mention the horrible things they have said. Scalia, especially...'freedom of religion only applies to christianity', 'actual innocence is no reason to free a person convicted by a jury (even if the person received the death sentence)', 'individuals have NO constitutional right to police protection',
> 
> In his dissent in Lawrence, Scalia argued that moral objections to homosexuality were sufficient justification for criminalizing gay sex.
> 
> At a recent lecture at the University of California Hastings College of Law, Scalia decided to expound on his view that the U.S. Constitution does not prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation or, for that matter, sex based discrimination. He said that from the 1970s onward, the courts had wrongly been applying the 14th Amendments guarantee of equal protection because it was never intended to apply that way. (Remember, the same section of the 14th also applies to color)
> 
> In discussing the Aurora shootings earlier this year, Justice Scalia told a Fox news host that he firmly backed the right to bear arms, clarifying this did not include manning a cannon but that there might be an argument for carrying a rocket launcher.
> 
> So many more.


I heard that he is a witty dinner guest. He should be doing that full time.


----------



## MarilynKnits

Poor Purl said:


> This sounds good, but I don't understand it.
> 
> I knit borders on with size 2 needles for the longer side and size 3 for the shorter, and it worked. It took me two weeks to think of that strategy.


Glad it worked. Sounds like an elegant and invisible solution.


----------



## MarilynKnits

It is ingenuous to ask for the public to throw out the current government and elect good people. The two major parties have managed, over the years, to create an electoral system wherein candidates for office are the tools of the parties. There have been candidates here and there with good agendas, but they have not been able to get the funding to stage a viable campaign. And so many of the candidates who appear to be positive choices turn out to be liars, pants on fire liars! 

I don't have an answer as to how to overturn this farce. I have a sinking feeling it is so deeply entrenched that there is no way to develop a fair system. The people with the power to make changes at present are the very ones who profit by the status quo, our currently elected officials. And the elected officials who might want to reform what is going on? If they try they will be blackballed and shut out of any opportunity to be reelected. 

Our start down this slide was not to have term limits on all elected officials. And do you think that will ever happen? Another push down the hill was not to have initiative and referendum where the electorate can have some say in what they want. Every time that has been tried in my state, it has been shot down.

There has occasionally been a grass roots movement to not reelect incumbents. Hasn't happened yet. 

There are a few good and honest people who have been elected despite the system. And I am sure different ones of us would disagree on who those people are.


----------



## MarilynKnits

SQM said:


> Were you treated well in the workplace? I certainly was not in some instances. And being in education, I made bubkas.


I worked in the private sector. I made less bupkas than I would have in teaching. And my pension is a joke. Doesn't even pay my phone bill each month. My trade off was I didn't have to take all the crap teachers do from administration. I lucked out as far as the boss I reported to. Other people in my office, reporting to other managers, had horrible jobs.


----------



## Designer1234

DGreen said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


I think it was J Bandsma who just posted this -she wrote:They ARE required, however, to report any contribution from an individual that is $200 or more. Your name, address, etc.

This where CU could easily be overturned if someone would just push it. The supreme court has declared that corporations are 'persons'. To me persons are individuals. Individuals must be listed for donating more than $200.

How fast would that get the money out of campaigns?

That is one answer which sounds viable. I am not in a position to say much about what is a good idea and what is not but it sounds as if this would certainly be a start.

It is fine to say the Government is corrupt and has to go but there has to be a peaceful way of doing it. This would be worthwhile to work hard and it certainly would start solving the problems.I like Marilyns ideas too- one thing at a time and work at changing the bad things that are happening. I think it could be done. just one opinion-mine.

I am a bit fuzzy and I hope I mentioned the right people making these statements. Too tired to go back and check.

Going to make dinner and put my feet up. Feel better today and just have to catch up with some rest. Thanks for listening to me. I do hope you can do some of these things.


----------



## DGreen

Designer1234 said:


> I think it was J Bandsma who just posted this -she wrote:They ARE required, however, to report any contribution from an individual that is $200 or more. Your name, address, etc.
> 
> This where CU could easily be overturned if someone would just push it. The supreme court has declared that corporations are 'persons'. To me persons are individuals. Individuals must be listed for donating more than $200.
> 
> How fast would that get the money out of campaigns?
> 
> That is one answer which sounds viable. I am not in a position to say much about what is a good idea and what is not but it sounds as if this would certainly be a start.
> 
> It is fine to say the Government is corrupt and has to go but there has to be a peaceful way of doing it. This would be worthwhile to work hard and it certainly would start solving the problems.I like Marilyns ideas too- one thing at a time and work at changing the bad things that are happening. I think it could be done. just one opinion-mine.
> 
> I am a bit fuzzy and I hope I mentioned the right people making these statements. Too tired to go back and check.
> 
> Going to make dinner and put my feet up. Feel better today and just have to catch up with some rest. Thanks for listening to me. I do hope you can do some of these things.


I do hope you get well soon! Please get as much rest as possible and let hubby pamper you. I'm sure he will love to do it.


----------



## Designer1234

Poor Purl said:


> What you write here implies that corporate "persons" have more rights than individual persons. How un-American.


 ;-) ;-)


----------



## Designer1234

peacegoddess said:


> If you closely examine the economic, military/foreign, and environmental policies of both major American political parties you will notice there is very little substantial differences. Many democrats no longer support unrestricted choice, most dems supported the egregious trade agreements, many support drone attacks, many are not supportive of strict environmental restrictions of businesses, President Obama accepted huge donations from corporations and his bailout of the banks borders on criminal.


I am just suggesting that the only way change is going to come no matter what change - that somehow the people have to start working together. I am not talking about whether the Dems are part Republican or vise versa -- I am talking about individuals trying to sort out the problems and joining together. I doubt it can happen but what other alternative is there? There seems to me to be far too much labelling of ideas when somehow you have to ALL try to find a way to work together to start the changes and accomplish anything. I doubt from what I read that there are enough who have the courage to be counted. jmo.


----------



## Camacho

I like the concept of rotation in office.

Term limits. Hmm. What about Senator Ted Kennedy? If someone is doing a good job, why not allow them to continue doing the good job they are doing? 

In order to do elections right, the big bucks have to be gotten out of it (more chorus of work to overturn Citizens United here) but they can't be controlling who is allowed to debate. We need a well-informed electorate. There need to be completely non-partisan and universally respected folks putting out real information on where all the candidates stand, and organizing debates that include all the candidates, and asking really good tough questions of each candidate. I like the League of Women Voters, and love what they used to do regarding elections, and still do at the local level in my town. I guess it is time to amend the Constitution to overturn Citizens United. 

I'll be away from KP for this next week (another trip to Maine, this one to finalize everything the factory needs to know before they can start making my house) so everyone have a great week!


----------



## SQM

OOO! A new home. See ya soon.


----------



## Poor Purl

Camacho said:


> I like the concept of rotation in office.
> 
> Term limits. Hmm. What about Senator Ted Kennedy? If someone is doing a good job, why not allow them to continue doing the good job they are doing?
> 
> In order to do elections right, the big bucks have to be gotten out of it (more chorus of work to overturn Citizens United here) but they can't be controlling who is allowed to debate. We need a well-informed electorate. There need to be completely non-partisan and universally respected folks putting out real information on where all the candidates stand, and organizing debates that include all the candidates, and asking really good tough questions of each candidate. I like the League of Women Voters, and love what they used to do regarding elections, and still do at the local level in my town. I guess it is time to amend the Constitution to overturn Citizens United.
> 
> I'll be away from KP for this next week (another trip to Maine, this one to finalize everything the factory needs to know before they can start making my house) so everyone have a great week!


Have a safe trip, and we'll see you soon after you get back. Yippeeee!


----------



## Designer1234

Camacho said:


> I like the concept of rotation in office.
> 
> Term limits. Hmm. What about Senator Ted Kennedy? If someone is doing a good job, why not allow them to continue doing the good job they are doing?
> 
> In order to do elections right, the big bucks have to be gotten out of it (more chorus of work to overturn Citizens United here) but they can't be controlling who is allowed to debate. We need a well-informed electorate. There need to be completely non-partisan and universally respected folks putting out real information on where all the candidates stand, and organizing debates that include all the candidates, and asking really good tough questions of each candidate. I like the League of Women Voters, and love what they used to do regarding elections, and still do at the local level in my town. I guess it is time to amend the Constitution to overturn Citizens United.
> 
> I'll be away from KP for this next week (another trip to Maine, this one to finalize everything the factory needs to know before they can start making my house) so everyone have a great week!


good luck on your new house - I hope it is everything you want .


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Designer1234 said:


> -----------
> I think most of the people here agree with what is needed, however, how do you do it? It is fine to say that 'this and that' needs to be done - but how do you suggest this be accomplished? I don't think it is lack of approval, but it is the difficulty of accomplishing what you are talking about. What is your answer. How do you change the vote so that others agree. Most of the people on this thread spend hours trying to do just that- or at least to try to change things for the good. It is fine to know the answer but that doesn't help with figuring out how to reach that goal. jmo
> 
> you say  I get so tired of each side asking questions and then dismissing the answers because they don't like them. It's a futile waste of time.
> 
> I do not remember anyone dismissing your ideas but it is in my opinion just about impossible to reach your objective without a civil war and that is pretty serious. I doubt any American wants a civil war. but what is your answer as to HOW?
> 
> I am a Canadian and my opinions are not important, but - you accuse 'everyone of dismissing your posts. It is also a possibility that some might not completely agree with you. They have that right. Come up with the answer as to how to change things that much and I am sure there would be lots of conversation. I am pretty darned sure that It is just about impossible for change until Americans all want change- many many don't seem to want to change the status quo.


IMO, it starts with very basic information that anyone and everyone can agree on. We must shake people out of their slumber, make them see that something is wrong. "Our government has been bought and paid for. They do not represent us. They deceive us and divide us." Some people have never heard the words but they know in their guts, that it's true. People just go along voting for the same candidates because they don't know who else to vote for. They want to vote for who they're expected to vote for. Both candidates lie to them. People need to understand that politicians are politicians, not representatives. Once people become aware, they can vote for their fellow citizens, instead of politicians. People should automatically vote against anyone who receives big money, they've been bought. But it starts with making people aware that all of the politicians are financed by the same small group at the top. If we want someone to represent us, he/she has to be one of us. It starts simply by making people realize that there IS a problem.


----------



## Designer1234

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, it starts with very basic information that anyone and everyone can agree on. We must shake people out of their slumber, make them see that something is wrong. "Our government has been bought and paid for. They do not represent us. They deceive us and divide us." Some people have never heard the words but they know in their guts, that it's true. People just go along voting for the same candidates because they don't know who else to vote for. They want to vote for who they're expected to vote for. Both candidates lie to them. People need to understand that politicians are politicians, not representatives. Once people become aware, they can vote for their fellow citizens, instead of politicians. People should automatically vote against anyone who receives big money, they've been bought. But it starts with making people aware that all of the politicians are financed by the same small group at the top. If we want someone to represent us, he/she has to be one of us. It starts simply by making people realize that there IS a problem.


That was my point -- how do you make people realize when even on this small forum people absolutely bone deep disagree with everything the other side stands for. How do you do it?

In my opinion, maybe take one thing at a time and publicize, talk, shout, publicize try to raise funds for posters, air time etc. and try to start with one problem and then a 2nd and 3rd. maybe it will give hope to those who are silent and have just given up. form an independent coalition of Americans who are fed up and want change - doesn't matter if you are Democrat or Republican. I think people are fed up and maybe that might work. just my thoughts for what they are worth. What about education as a start. All parents and grandparents are interested in the education of their children. work on that first? It will be so hard to do but what else choice is there?

Off my soap box as I might have over stepped but I have been reading these posts on both sides since these threads started.

The only way I can personally see it work if it is a neutral party or group of Americans who want change and will work for it. Not Democrats, Not Republicans, but American Citizens. I am really off the soap box now. See you all tomorrow.


----------



## Poor Purl

Camacho said:


> I like the concept of rotation in office.
> 
> Term limits. Hmm. What about Senator Ted Kennedy? If someone is doing a good job, why not allow them to continue doing the good job they are doing?
> 
> In order to do elections right, the big bucks have to be gotten out of it (more chorus of work to overturn Citizens United here) but they can't be controlling who is allowed to debate. We need a well-informed electorate. There need to be completely non-partisan and universally respected folks putting out real information on where all the candidates stand, and organizing debates that include all the candidates, and asking really good tough questions of each candidate. I like the League of Women Voters, and love what they used to do regarding elections, and still do at the local level in my town. I guess it is time to amend the Constitution to overturn Citizens United.
> 
> I'll be away from KP for this next week (another trip to Maine, this one to finalize everything the factory needs to know before they can start making my house) so everyone have a great week!


I agree about term limits. I'd hate to lose Bernie Sanders just because time's up. But what do you mean by "rotation in office"?


----------



## damemary

Dear Shirley, thanks for taking time to share your good counsel. You must be starting to get your energy back. Miss you.



Designer1234 said:


> I am just suggesting that the only way change is going to come no matter what change - that somehow the people have to start working together. I am not talking about whether the Dems are part Republican or vise versa -- I am talking about individuals trying to sort out the problems and joining together. I doubt it can happen but what other alternative is there? There seems to me to be far too much labelling of ideas when somehow you have to ALL try to find a way to work together to start the changes and accomplish anything. I doubt from what I read that there are enough who have the courage to be counted. jmo.


----------



## damemary

I'm anxious to hear about your new home and your experiences. We're thinking of downsizing and unsure how to accomplish it. Safe trip.



Camacho said:


> I like the concept of rotation in office.
> 
> Term limits. Hmm. What about Senator Ted Kennedy? If someone is doing a good job, why not allow them to continue doing the good job they are doing?
> 
> In order to do elections right, the big bucks have to be gotten out of it (more chorus of work to overturn Citizens United here) but they can't be controlling who is allowed to debate. We need a well-informed electorate. There need to be completely non-partisan and universally respected folks putting out real information on where all the candidates stand, and organizing debates that include all the candidates, and asking really good tough questions of each candidate. I like the League of Women Voters, and love what they used to do regarding elections, and still do at the local level in my town. I guess it is time to amend the Constitution to overturn Citizens United.
> 
> I'll be away from KP for this next week (another trip to Maine, this one to finalize everything the factory needs to know before they can start making my house) so everyone have a great week!


----------



## jbandsma

Just out of curiosity as to whether a constitutional amendment would be necessary to get rid of citizens united...to see if there had ever been a case of a supreme court decision being overturned, I did some looking.

And found that there have been what looked like at least a hundred...maybe more. Some overturned by a later court but a lot overturned by the same court when the original case was brought back to them on another issue.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> Just out of curiosity as to whether a constitutional amendment would be necessary to get rid of citizens united...to see if there had ever been a case of a supreme court decision being overturned, I did some looking.
> 
> And found that there have been what looked like at least a hundred...maybe more. Some overturned by a later court but a lot overturned by the same court when the original case was brought back to them on another issue.


I don't think this court is likely to reverse itself, particularly with Scalia on the bench. They have been very consistently pro-business and pro-religious "rights." It will take citizen action to undo this insult to democracy.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> I don't think this court is likely to reverse itself, particularly with Scalia on the bench. They have been very consistently pro-business and pro-religious "rights." It will take citizen action to undo this insult to democracy.


Brought back on another issue, all it would take is one judge to change his vote to overturn. Just one.


----------



## damemary

Thanks for the research. Retired Justice John Paul Stevens wrote a scathing dissenting opinion. Looks like that person might be the one to give direction, but he is 94. Bader or Sotelmayer?



jbandsma said:


> Just out of curiosity as to whether a constitutional amendment would be necessary to get rid of citizens united...to see if there had ever been a case of a supreme court decision being overturned, I did some looking.
> 
> And found that there have been what looked like at least a hundred...maybe more. Some overturned by a later court but a lot overturned by the same court when the original case was brought back to them on another issue.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> Brought back on another issue, all it would take is one judge to change his vote to overturn. Just one.


I'm not holding my breath for that to happen.


----------



## DGreen

damemary said:


> Thanks for the research. Retired Justice John Paul Stevens wrote a scathing dissenting opinion. Looks like that person might be the one to give direction, but he is 94. Bader or Sotelmayer?


I think I heard whispers about Ginsburg retiring. Bad news if true, except if she retires while Obama is still in office we have a slim hope of getting a more centrist (no hope for a liberal) justice.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

NJG said:


> And I think we need mandatory voting, or as close to it as we can get. Republicans would hate that as they don't want all "those people" to vote.


I'd be happy to support changing to the Australian system, which I think Eve described. Also, I think we need a multi-party system to better represent the differences in various constituencies.


----------



## DGreen

MaidInBedlam said:


> I'd be happy to support changing to the Australian system, which I think Eve described. Also, I think we need a multi-party system to better represent the differences in various constituencies.


I don't think it's realistic to hope for such a change. Multi-party system? Perhaps, but that would take an enormous effort and a lot of time. I think we need to work with what we've got and continually, gradually, push for multi-party.


----------



## Designer1234

I have some great news. Tamarque is now one of the Managers of the Workshop section. She will be teaching her beautiful mitered toddlers jacket in late January -

I want to be the first to let you all know - I am really pleased as she is a wonderful knitter and we are in the midst of planning her class. She will be looking after it herself and I will be helping her in the background. More information to follow! I am delighted. I will let you know when the next little newsletter is put out with all the info on the classes. 


Yeah!!!


----------



## Poor Purl

DGreen said:


> I don't think this court is likely to reverse itself, particularly with Scalia on the bench. They have been very consistently pro-business and pro-religious "rights." It will take citizen action to undo this insult to democracy.


As Jbandsma points out, all it needs in this 5-4 court is for one justice to change his mind.

It would seem that the overturning of the Voting Rights Act is a good place to start, since we all know what immediately followed that.


----------



## Poor Purl

Designer1234 said:


> I have some great news. Tamarque is now one of the Managers of the Workshop section. She will be teaching her beautiful mitered toddlers jacket in late January -
> 
> I want to be the first to let you all know - I am really pleased as she is a wonderful knitter and we are in the midst of planning her class. She will be looking after it herself and I will be helping her in the background. More information to follow! I am delighted. I will let you know when the next little newsletter is put out with all the info on the classes.
> 
> Yeah!!!


That's good news! That sweater in the picture is absolutely stunning.

If Tamarque is subbing for you as workshop boss, will she now become the target of LTL & Co. instead of you?


----------



## SQM

I just saw a video on mitered knitting and it seems quite doable. Tamarque is truly a genius knitter. Shirley passed her baton to the right person.


----------



## NJG

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, it starts with very basic information that anyone and everyone can agree on. We must shake people out of their slumber, make them see that something is wrong. "Our government has been bought and paid for. They do not represent us. They deceive us and divide us." Some people have never heard the words but they know in their guts, that it's true. People just go along voting for the same candidates because they don't know who else to vote for. They want to vote for who they're expected to vote for. Both candidates lie to them. People need to understand that politicians are politicians, not representatives. Once people become aware, they can vote for their fellow citizens, instead of politicians. People should automatically vote against anyone who receives big money, they've been bought. But it starts with making people aware that all of the politicians are financed by the same small group at the top. If we want someone to represent us, he/she has to be one of us. It starts simply by making people realize that there IS a problem.


I don't think a lot of people even vote for a candidate, they vote for the party, and whoever is the candidate for that party, gets their vote. It is just wanting their party to win, regardless of what they do to the country. I think people realize there is a problem, but believe the other party will make it worse, so they vote against their own interests.


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> I don't think a lot of people even vote for a candidate, they vote for the party, and whoever is the candidate for that party, gets their vote. It is just wanting their party to win, regardless of what they do to the country. I think people realize there is a problem, but believe the other party will make it worse, so they vote against their own interests.


If true, somewhat understandable. I personally don't believe 99% of the political ads I see and even the "debates" leave one wondering who the candidate truly is. Presumably, a candidate on the democratic slate will be more liberal than one on the republican slate. Still, lazy since a lot of information is available with a little effort.

One of my goals as an officer of my local democratic group is to promote voter education and participation. Both are important. Of course, my fellow group members certainly don't vote the ticket blindly. We recently supported an Independent candidate (he lost) and had several candidates speak at our meetings. Truly, most of our members are very informed and involved. Now to get the rest of the voters to pay attention.


----------



## NJG

DGreen said:


> If true, somewhat understandable. I personally don't believe 99% of the political ads I see and even the "debates" leave one wondering who the candidate truly is. Presumably, a candidate on the democratic slate will be more liberal than one on the republican slate. Still, lazy since a lot of information is available with a little effort.
> 
> One of my goals as an officer of my local democratic group is to promote voter education and participation. Both are important. Of course, my fellow group members certainly don't vote the ticket blindly. We recently supported an Independent candidate (he lost) and had several candidates speak at our meetings. Truly, most of our members are very informed and involved. Now to get the rest of the voters to pay attention.


Of course your members are informed because the choose to be. It is people like one I talked to when working for Obamas reelection. He said I don't listen to politics. I asked him if he would vote. He said of course, I always vote. I asked him where he got his information about who to vote for. He said I don't need any information, I always vote republican. I think there are too many older people that do that. They are so sick of hearing about it, that they just vote the party and forget about it.


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> Of course your members are informed because the choose to be. It is people like one I talked to when working for Obamas reelection. He said I don't listen to politics. I asked him if he would vote. He said of course, I always vote. I asked him where he got his information about who to vote for. He said I don't need any information, I always vote republican. I think there are too many older people that do that. They are so sick of hearing about it, that they just vote the party and forget about it.


Your are right, of course. I just don't believe the majority of people are guilty of that. My own stepson claims to be disgusted by all politics and refuses to listen to the news or anything remotely political. His mother (another activist progressive, gotta love that woman) and I rag on him mercilessly for being irresponsible. I can't fix the world, but I can do my small part.


----------



## Designer1234

Poor Purl said:


> That's good news! That sweater in the picture is absolutely stunning.
> 
> If Tamarque is subbing for you as workshop boss, will she now become the target of LTL & Co. instead of you?


Who knows what is in their minds. I try not to lose any sleep over it. 
One thing though it is the first time in my life I have felt as if people disliked me so much -- maybe I needed a lesson, who knows. It was interesting awhile ago when I posted there about knitting with WCK's group as she graciously invited me as I had just move here ( one, who I have no remembrance of talking to ever, called me a troll} I wonder who convinced her of that? Doesn't matter.. I have my opinion and their attacks will never change me.

I am not knitting with the group as I have had too much on my plate and I think it must be uncomfortable for both of us but I will drop into the store aif I am ever back to normal.
Interesting - I hope they leave Tamarque alone but I also know she can look after herself very well.


----------



## damemary

Right now I'm afraid a multi-party system will just provide someone else to be bribed, and there seems to be no limit to money available.



MaidInBedlam said:


> I'd be happy to support changing to the Australian system, which I think Eve described. Also, I think we need a multi-party system to better represent the differences in various constituencies.


----------



## damemary

I'm thrilled. Hope you'll be joining us one day. Thanks for the information.



Designer1234 said:


> I have some great news. Tamarque is now one of the Managers of the Workshop section. She will be teaching her beautiful mitered toddlers jacket in late January -
> 
> I want to be the first to let you all know - I am really pleased as she is a wonderful knitter and we are in the midst of planning her class. She will be looking after it herself and I will be helping her in the background. More information to follow! I am delighted. I will let you know when the next little newsletter is put out with all the info on the classes.
> 
> Yeah!!!


----------



## damemary

You may be right, but there's another way of viewing it. IF you want to vote for a candidate with a chance of winning, you're limited to two major party candidates. IF you compare the two, you will vote for the one most closely affiliated with your beliefs.



NJG said:


> I don't think a lot of people even vote for a candidate, they vote for the party, and whoever is the candidate for that party, gets their vote. It is just wanting their party to win, regardless of what they do to the country. I think people realize there is a problem, but believe the other party will make it worse, so they vote against their own interests.


----------



## MarilynKnits

damemary said:


> You may be right, but there's another way of viewing it. IF you want to vote for a candidate with a chance of winning, you're limited to two major party candidates. IF you compare the two, you will vote for the one most closely affiliated with your beliefs.


It seems as if I have been voting for the lesser of the two evils rather than the best candidate. It has long been my contention that with the rancor and mud slinging in politics the people who are best suited to be leaders are usually too sensible to want to be soiled and slandered.


----------



## Poor Purl

Designer1234 said:


> Who knows what is in their minds. I try not to lose any sleep over it.
> One thing though it is the first time in my life I have felt as if people disliked me so much -- maybe I needed a lesson, who knows. It was interesting awhile ago when I posted there about knitting with WCK's group as she graciously invited me as I had just move here ( one, who I have no remembrance of talking to ever, called me a troll} I wonder who convinced her of that? Doesn't matter.. I have my opinion and their attacks will never change me.
> 
> I am not knitting with the group as I have had too much on my plate and I think it must be uncomfortable for both of us but I will drop into the store aif I am ever back to normal.
> Interesting - I hope they leave Tamarque alone but I also know she can look after herself very well.


I need to get this straight. While you were sitting in Kitty's store, knitting with her and her friends, one of her friends called you a troll?

Holy COW!


----------



## damemary

*If* I were inclined to visit the store and such a thing happened, I would walk out, *hopefully* without slugging anyone, and *NEVER* return or speak with any of those people again.



Poor Purl said:


> I need to get this straight. While you were sitting in Kitty's store, knitting with her and her friends, one of her friends called you a troll?
> 
> Holy COW!


----------



## SQM

Poor Purl said:


> I need to get this straight. While you were sitting in Kitty's store, knitting with her and her friends, one of her friends called you a troll?
> 
> Holy COW!


Was that person on KP or just Kitty's KP friend?


----------



## damemary

If I knew the answer, I would consider this not to be my tale to tell.



SQM said:


> Was that person on KP or just Kitty's KP friend?


----------



## cookiequeen

Iii


DGreen said:
 

> If true, somewhat understandable. I personally don't believe 99% of the political ads I see and even the "debates" leave one wondering who the candidate truly is. Presumably, a candidate on the democratic slate will be more liberal than one on the republican slate. Still, lazy since a lot of information is available with a little effort.
> 
> One of my goals as an officer of my local democratic group is to promote voter education and participation. Both are important. Of course, my fellow group members certainly don't vote the ticket blindly. We recently supported an Independent candidate (he lost) and had several candidates speak at our meetings. Truly, most of our members are very informed and involved. Now to get the rest of the voters to pay attention.


I always vote the Democratic Party ticket. I simply don't agree with the basic philosophy of the Republicans, which to me is anti-common good, anti-common person, and anti-social programs. Period. Why are on earth would I vote for a party that favors the wealthy? It's almost intuitive. Of course, when I'm voting for propositions or bond issues, etc., I have to study.


----------



## cookiequeen

damemary said:


> *If* I were inclined to visit the store and such a thing happened, I would walk out, *hopefully* without slugging anyone, and *NEVER* return or speak with any of those people again.


I would have a few words and then walk out.


----------



## Designer1234

damemary said:


> *If* I were inclined to visit the store and such a thing happened, I would walk out, *hopefully* without slugging anyone, and *NEVER* return or speak with any of those people again.


*NOOOOO*! you misunderstood what I said or I said it incorrectly - when I visited 
d and P after my first visit to the knitting group, I knew she had told them ( being nosy to see if anyone mentioned it some of them did}. That was when they had a ball saying things and one who I have never talked to that I remember called me a troll.  Kitty and Bonnie both stated that I was not a troll. I shouldn't have even mentioned it. It still however surprises me as I have been doing the workshops for over 2 years. And it amazed me that someone I hadn't even talked to had been convinced by someone there (???? } that I was so terrible I must be a troll.

Her knitting group were great and very nice and friendly. So was she. I can't believe I gave that impression. If she is lurking, I certainly didn't mean that at all. I doubt she is but I don't want to be quoted that I was mistreated there -- the absolute opposite. I have been in and out of hospital and other things and just haven't gone back but intend to drop by the store as soon as I can. She was very gracious. If anyone on D and P read my post wrong please read this one. I will go back and see how I wrote it to confuse people. Best I had just not mentioned it.


----------



## Designer1234

Designer1234 said:


> Who knows what is in their minds. I try not to lose any sleep over it.
> One thing though it is the first time in my life I have felt as if people disliked me so much -- maybe I needed a lesson, who knows. *It was interesting awhile ago when I posted there about knitting with WCK's group *as she graciously invited me as I had just move here -(and one, who I have no remembrance of talking to ever, called me a troll} I wonder who convinced her of that? Doesn't matter.. I have my opinion and their attacks will never change me.
> 
> I am not knitting with the group as I have had too much on my plate and I think it must be uncomfortable for both of us but I will drop into the store aif I am ever back to normal.
> Interesting -  I hope they leave Tamarque alone but I also know she can look after herself very well.


*NOTE * To be clear it was on D and P not her knitting group. I have only gone twice and was treated very well and met some very nice people. We never even mentioned politics.


----------



## Designer1234

jbandsma said:


> And every time we try to discuss with you, your racism comes to the fore, and you don't even realize what you're saying.


You have never given him a chance -- The Conservatives, before he even was elected stated they would fight EVERY bill and action he took and would never agree to anything he suggested. What does that do to a President if people won't even give him a chance. I know nothing about him but what I have read. I wonder what he might have accomplished if they had agreed to find common ground for the good of the country rather than automatically try everything in their power to undercut him. I can't see where anyone can really judge what he might have a accomplished. Yes, I think he might have given up the fight, who wouldn't have with the hate and lies and unbelievable obstruction he had to put up with - including the treatment of his wife and children. His hair has gone white and he could never defend himself against all the dreadful things said about him personally. He played golf and was crucified for it. Other presidents played golf all the time, no criticism that is just one example. His wife was called a sl-t on one of the right wing newscasts and they all agreed that it was the truth. I read their posts. Not one person ever stood up for his family. So I am not against him at all, I just wish they had given him a fair chance. He wasn't only dealing with obstruction from the right, he was dealing with all the attacks of his personal life, and every singe thing he did. When he visited the troops he was accused of being dishonest. and on and on. That is a fact. I have absolutely no idea if he would have been a good President, in my opinion he was never allowed to be. Then people like KFN states she hates him and Bush. Bush was a poor President who was accepted even when he lied, even when he allowed Cheney to tell him lies, even when he allowed torture. No right thinking person can say he was a good President, but no one treated him like this President, ever.

Race was a player in those decisions and it is obvious. NOt everyone but many. You can tell by some of the 'jokes' on D and P that make him look like a monkey and how they laugh. The constant hateful remarks by people like LTL and others - the offensive pictures and untrue statements. Over there no one dares to say a good thing about him. Some never make statements at all. They have made up their minds from day one that he was useless- they never gave him a chance.


----------



## Designer1234

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> "Bush's drunken underage brawling daughters" got a pass?!? If that were true you wouldn't be commenting on it because you wouldn't have heard about it! Selective prossessing! Hypocrisy!


however it is the truth. They weren't accused of being ************ or other racial slurs. They were treated incorrectly too but not in the same way. The Obama children have never been seen to do anything uncouth or at a bar, they are well brought up, well loved young ladies whose parents treat them well and it is a close family. That is the only picture I have ever seen of them or heard about them. They were protected in some ways from the racial slurs, what parent wouldn't protect them.

I am not accusing KFN of being a Conservative but she states that she hates both Obama and Bush -- Bush at least had an opportunity to do things some of which were dreadful. Obama has been fought on every front. I realize that a few things were passed but many things were not. There has never been cooperation by the Conservatives.

We have been called hypocrits by you on quite a few occasions. I personally take offense at it. We don't always agree with you. We have a right to speak what we feel. Many news sources talked about his Daughters, that is a fact. I don't agree that they were given a pass. HOwever the Obama girls have not even been to a bar, nor have they shown they are anything but young ladies and on many right wing places they were called pickaninys. I know that it was considered quite funny on D and P. They are in their early teens. What parent would try to protect them - but he couldn't answer those slurs because he was the President, even though they weren't true.

I admire your wish to change the world, but I don't admire being called a hypocrit because we say something you don't like. I don't think any of us do anything but speak our true feelings as you do. So please do not call us those kind of names any more. I admire many things about you, but I don't admire it when you make statements that accuse us of things when we are just disagreeing with you.

I hope your dil is doing well and still Pray for the Babies. Lets just be a bit nicer and stop calling us things we aren't. We don't always agree with each other and often we don't agree with you and say so. We are not hypocrits.


----------



## DGreen

damemary said:


> *If* I were inclined to visit the store and such a thing happened, I would walk out, *hopefully* without slugging anyone, and *NEVER* return or speak with any of those people again.


The thought of our gracious Dame slugging someone made me laugh so hard tears just ran down my leg.


----------



## DGreen

cookiequeen said:


> Iii
> 
> I always vote the Democratic Party ticket. I simply don't agree with the basic philosophy of the Republicans, which to me is anti-common good, anti-common person, and anti-social programs. Period. Why are on earth would I vote for a party that favors the wealthy? It's almost intuitive. Of course, when I'm voting for propositions or bond issues, etc., I have to study.


I'll bet, though, that if a democratic candidate you did not like was on the ballot, you would not vote for that person. Because you're not just the cookie queen, you're a smart cookie.


----------



## cookiequeen

DGreen said:


> I'll bet, though, that if a democratic candidate you did not like was on the ballot, you would not vote for that person. Because you're not just the cookie queen, you're a smart cookie.


I'd leave it blank before I voted for a repub.


----------



## DGreen

cookiequeen said:


> I'd leave it blank before I voted for a repub.


My kind of gal.


----------



## Poor Purl

Designer1234 said:


> *NOOOOO*! you misunderstood what I said or I said it incorrectly - when I visited
> d and P after my first visit to the knitting group, I knew she had told them ( being nosy to see if anyone mentioned it some of them did}. That was when they had a ball saying things and one who I have never talked to that I remember called me a troll.  Kitty and Bonnie both stated that I was not a troll. I shouldn't have even mentioned it. It still however surprises me as I have been doing the workshops for over 2 years. And it amazed me that someone I hadn't even talked to had been convinced by someone there (???? } that I was so terrible I must be a troll.
> 
> Her knitting group were great and very nice and friendly. So was she. I can't believe I gave that impression. If she is lurking, I certainly didn't mean that at all. I doubt she is but I don't want to be quoted that I was mistreated there -- the absolute opposite. I have been in and out of hospital and other things and just haven't gone back but intend to drop by the store as soon as I can. She was very gracious. If anyone on D and P read my post wrong please read this one. I will go back and see how I wrote it to confuse people. Best I had just not mentioned it.


Thank you for straightening me out. I obviously read something into it that wasn't there. I hope it doesn't cause you any problems. If it does, send them to me.

As Golda Meir has said, "With me, a change of problems is like taking a vacation."


----------



## Poor Purl

cookiequeen said:


> I'd leave it blank before I voted for a repub.


I've done that once or twice. The only Republican I ever voted for (and this was a very long time ago) left the R Party and became a Democrat.


----------



## damemary

Same here.



cookiequeen said:


> Iii
> 
> I always vote the Democratic Party ticket. I simply don't agree with the basic philosophy of the Republicans, which to me is anti-common good, anti-common person, and anti-social programs. Period. Why are on earth would I vote for a party that favors the wealthy? It's almost intuitive. Of course, when I'm voting for propositions or bond issues, etc., I have to study.


----------



## damemary

Thank you for clarifying. I guess I automatically think the worst of some people. It may also be due to trying to stick up for a dear friend. So sorry for the confusion. I can't understand why anyone says such unkind things. The numbers are smaller than I fear. Fear, bad.



Designer1234 said:


> *NOOOOO*! you misunderstood what I said or I said it incorrectly - when I visited
> d and P after my first visit to the knitting group, I knew she had told them ( being nosy to see if anyone mentioned it some of them did}. That was when they had a ball saying things and one who I have never talked to that I remember called me a troll.  Kitty and Bonnie both stated that I was not a troll. I shouldn't have even mentioned it. It still however surprises me as I have been doing the workshops for over 2 years. And it amazed me that someone I hadn't even talked to had been convinced by someone there (???? } that I was so terrible I must be a troll.
> 
> Her knitting group were great and very nice and friendly. So was she. I can't believe I gave that impression. If she is lurking, I certainly didn't mean that at all. I doubt she is but I don't want to be quoted that I was mistreated there -- the absolute opposite. I have been in and out of hospital and other things and just haven't gone back but intend to drop by the store as soon as I can. She was very gracious. If anyone on D and P read my post wrong please read this one. I will go back and see how I wrote it to confuse people. Best I had just not mentioned it.


----------



## damemary

I save the threat of such behavior for special occasions that deserve it.



DGreen said:


> The thought of our gracious Dame slugging someone made me laugh so hard tears just ran down my leg.


----------



## damemary

cookiequeen said:


> I'd leave it blank before I voted for a repub.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## MindyT

cookiequeen said:


> Iii
> 
> I always vote the Democratic Party ticket. I simply don't agree with the basic philosophy of the Republicans, which to me is anti-common good, anti-common person, and anti-social programs. Period. Why are on earth would I vote for a party that favors the wealthy? It's almost intuitive. Of course, when I'm voting for propositions or bond issues, etc., I have to study.


Yep, me too!


----------



## MindyT

I would definitely leave a blank space rather than vote for a R. And, I too, have done that.
The main thing is to educate people as was said and get out the vote. 

I can't imagine people living with the party of No since 2008, having the congress approval rating in the dumps, and then voting more of them in last year. One person said it was to teach "Obama a lesson", what kind of logic is that I ask you.

My sister, the right-wing Republican Christian fundamentalist, sent me a kitchen towel that has printed, "oy vey " on it. I just flap my towel around every time McConnell or Boehner say anything. Makes me feel better and in summer cools me off !!


----------



## jbandsma

Some states already have it (for local seats, at least) but I think every ballot everywhere should have a "none of the above" option. And when that is the winner, none of the candidates on that ballot are allowed to run again...at least for that election.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

DGreen said:


> I don't think it's realistic to hope for such a change. Multi-party system? Perhaps, but that would take an enormous effort and a lot of time. I think we need to work with what we've got and continually, gradually, push for multi-party.


I don't have to be realistic to have hopes. Seems to me that being realistic is a good way to squash the ability to have hopes,

Given our historic, intense and ridiculous attachment to a two-party system, I doubt we're going to see any change in the near future. I doubt I'll live long enough to see a viable third party let alone a multi-party system. If we work with what we've got and continually, gradually, push for multi-party, IMO, we probably will never see a change in to our two-party system.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

Designer1234 said:


> however it is the truth. They weren't accused of being ************ or other racial slurs. They were treated incorrectly too but not in the same way. The Obama children have never been seen to do anything uncouth or at a bar, they are well brought up, well loved young ladies whose parents treat them well and it is a close family. That is the only picture I have ever seen of them or heard about them. They were protected in some ways from the racial slurs, what parent wouldn't protect them.
> 
> I am not accusing KFN of being a Conservative but she states that she hates both Obama and Bush -- Bush at least had an opportunity to do things some of which were dreadful. Obama has been fought on every front. I realize that a few things were passed but many things were not. There has never been cooperation by the Conservatives.
> 
> We have been called hypocrits by you on quite a few occasions. I personally take offense at it. We don't always agree with you. We have a right to speak what we feel. Many news sources talked about his Daughters, that is a fact. I don't agree that they were given a pass. HOwever the Obama girls have not even been to a bar, nor have they shown they are anything but young ladies and on many right wing places they were called pickaninys. I know that it was considered quite funny on D and P. They are in their early teens. What parent would try to protect them - but he couldn't answer those slurs because he was the President, even though they weren't true.
> 
> I admire your wish to change the world, but I don't admire being called a hypocrit because we say something you don't like. I don't think any of us do anything but speak our true feelings as you do. So please do not call us those kind of names any more. I admire many things about you, but I don't admire it when you make statements that accuse us of things when we are just disagreeing with you.
> 
> I hope your dil is doing well and still Pray for the Babies. Lets just be a bit nicer and stop calling us things we aren't. We don't always agree with each other and often we don't agree with you and say so. We are not hypocrits.


Designer, I can't imagine you as a racist or a hypocrite at all.


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> Some states already have it (for local seats, at least) but I think every ballot everywhere should have a "none of the above" option. And when that is the winner, none of the candidates on that ballot are allowed to run again...at least for that election.


Terrific idea.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl

MaidInBedlam said:


> I don't have to be realistic to have hopes. Seems to me that being realistic is a good way to squash the ability to have hopes,
> 
> Given our historic, intense and ridiculous attachment to a two-party system, I doubt we're going to see any change in the near future. I doubt I'll live long enough to see a viable third party let alone a multi-party system. If we work with what we've got and continually, gradually, push for multi-party, IMO, we probably will never see a change in to our two-party system.


I hope you're wrong, but I suspect you're right.


----------



## jbandsma

MaidInBedlam said:


> Designer, I can't imagine you as a racist or a hypocrite at all.


I think she misquoted me...what she quoted me as saying was directed to KnitterFromNebraska, not Designer...too much trouble to go back and look for the originals but it was part of the discussion of her (KFN) feeling that, while it was ok for SD white folks to have all kinds of accomodations like 46 days of early voting, convenient polling places, etc, that it was ridiculous for Native Americans to expect the same considerations...even when the money had been appropriated but wasn't used because the person responsible just flatly refused to do it.

Then try to say that she isn't racist. I pointed out that she makes these claims but doesn't even bother to see what she's saying.


----------



## jbandsma

MaidInBedlam said:


> I don't have to be realistic to have hopes. Seems to me that being realistic is a good way to squash the ability to have hopes,
> 
> Given our historic, intense and ridiculous attachment to a two-party system, I doubt we're going to see any change in the near future. I doubt I'll live long enough to see a viable third party let alone a multi-party system. If we work with what we've got and continually, gradually, push for multi-party, IMO, we probably will never see a change in to our two-party system.


I believe we're going to see a change in the 2 party system...to a single party system.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> I believe we're going to see a change in the 2 party system...to a single party system.


Oh dear.


----------



## west coast kitty

.


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> I believe we're going to see a change in the 2 party system...to a single party system.


And the Leader will be Chinese since we are in such massive debt to them and it is near impossible to buy anything, including yarn with an Italian name, that wasn't made in China.


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> And the Leader will be Chinese since we are in such massive debt to them and it is near impossible to buy anything, including yarn with an Italian name, that wasn't made in China.


I read a prediction once...back in the late 60's...that said that both the Soviet system of politics and the American system would end up changing places. It didn't predict that the Soviet Union would become Russia again but that's a minor point.

I wish I could remember who made it. I know everyone thought the idea of the SU becoming more democratic and the US becoming more totalitarian was the craziest idea they ever heard. Me included. But it has always stuck with me.

And the Chinese have stepped into the gap.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> I read a prediction once...back in the late 60's...that said that both the Soviet system of politics and the American system would end up changing places. It didn't predict that the Soviet Union would become Russia again but that's a minor point.
> 
> I wish I could remember who made it. I know everyone thought the idea of the SU becoming more democratic and the US becoming more totalitarian was the craziest idea they ever heard. Me included. But it has always stuck with me.
> 
> And the Chinese have stepped into the gap.


I don't see the Chinese trying to take over our government. The Koch's maybe, but not the Chinese. They have their own problems.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> I don't see the Chinese trying to take over our government. The Koch's maybe, but not the Chinese. They have their own problems.


True. But who owns the Chinese? If the Koch brothers decide to pull industries out of China don't you think they're going to do everything possible to keep them? Like acting as a puppet so the Koch's aren't so blatant.

Sort of like Bush's puppetmaster Cheney.


----------



## Poor Purl

west coast kitty said:


> .


Thank you for some good advice.

Have you posted these on the thread you spend most time on? They're even more relevant there than they are here.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

jbandsma said:


> I believe we're going to see a change in the 2 party system...to a single party system.


I didn't want to say that. Seems likely, and very scary.


----------



## MarilynKnits

cookiequeen said:


> Iii
> 
> I always vote the Democratic Party ticket. I simply don't agree with the basic philosophy of the Republicans, which to me is anti-common good, anti-common person, and anti-social programs. Period. Why are on earth would I vote for a party that favors the wealthy? It's almost intuitive. Of course, when I'm voting for propositions or bond issues, etc., I have to study.


Quite often I vote for a candidate who is not of the two major parties if I agree with her/his position on relevant issues. Some people would say I am wasting my vote, but I prefer to think that I am supporting a position I value and supporting someone who may have some influence in making that issue heard.

Where I live, in our town, when we moved here we did not have political labels for local elections. Candidates wrote position papers to the local newspapers, the League of Women Voters sent everybody a newsletter with information about each candidate, and candidates had "meet the public" sessions at the library, the college, the high school and answered questions.

Whoever got the top vote was mayor, and the council was comprised of the next top vote getters. Things ran beautifully.

Then statutes changed and each candidate had to declare party affiliation. We are small enough and there are still enough people who have lived here long enough that things don't get ugly the way they are in National elections.

The people who are my county's officers happen to label themselves Republican because there are more people registered Republican than Democrat on the voter rolls. They have a better chance of being elected if they declare as Republicans. The county is well run, policies are moderate and there are programs to benefit the general citizen. We have many historic sites which are supported and promoted by the County. We have flourishing senior centers, a flourishing library system, and county officials who visit fund raisers for charities and promote those charities to the ones attending the events. And in the elections for borough, township, or county office, again, the top vote getters get in regardless of party affiliation. If our State and Federal officials all had the standards and values of the people who are local to my area, the country would be a happier place.

Unfortunately we have a buffoon as governor. He happens to be a Republican, but his real affiliation is the Me First and the H--- with the rest of you Party. Can't win 'em all.


----------



## DGreen

MarilynKnits said:


> Quite often I vote for a candidate who is not of the two major parties if I agree with her/his position on relevant issues. Some people would say I am wasting my vote, but I prefer to think that I am supporting a position I value and supporting someone who may have some influence in making that issue heard.
> 
> Where I live, in our town, when we moved here we did not have political labels for local elections. Candidates wrote position papers to the local newspapers, the League of Women Voters sent everybody a newsletter with information about each candidate, and candidates had "meet the public" sessions at the library, the college, the high school and answered questions.
> 
> Whoever got the top vote was mayor, and the council was comprised of the next top vote getters. Things ran beautifully.
> 
> Then statutes changed and each candidate had to declare party affiliation. We are small enough and there are still enough people who have lived here long enough that things don't get ugly the way they are in National elections.
> 
> The people who are my county's officers happen to label themselves Republican because there are more people registered Republican than Democrat on the voter rolls. They have a better chance of being elected if they declare as Republicans. The county is well run, policies are moderate and there are programs to benefit the general citizen. We have many historic sites which are supported and promoted by the County. We have flourishing senior centers, a flourishing library system, and county officials who visit fund raisers for charities and promote those charities to the ones attending the events. And in the elections for borough, township, or county office, again, the top vote getters get in regardless of party affiliation. If our State and Federal officials all had the standards and values of the people who are local to my area, the country would be a happier place.
> 
> Unfortunately we have a buffoon as governor. He happens to be a Republican, but his real affiliation is the Me First and the H--- with the rest of you Party. Can't win 'em all.


Too bad you can't bottle that good sense approach and export it to those of us who live in places like Arizona.


----------



## MindyT

jbandsma said:


> I believe we're going to see a change in the 2 party system...to a single party system.


The Business Party


----------



## MarilynKnits

MindyT said:


> The Business Party


Having a fancy party at the expense of all the rest of us.


----------



## Larailayda

jbandsma said:


> I read a prediction once...back in the late 60's...that said that both the Soviet system of politics and the American system would end up changing places. It didn't predict that the Soviet Union would become Russia again but that's a minor point.
> 
> I wish I could remember who made it. I know everyone thought the idea of the SU becoming more democratic and the US becoming more totalitarian was the craziest idea they ever heard. Me included. But it has always stuck with me.
> 
> And the Chinese have stepped into the gap.


Comes close to M. Duverger's theory of convergence.
Xoxo, Lara


----------



## damemary

I like that.



jbandsma said:


> Some states already have it (for local seats, at least) but I think every ballot everywhere should have a "none of the above" option. And when that is the winner, none of the candidates on that ballot are allowed to run again...at least for that election.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary

MaidInBedlam said:


> Designer, I can't imagine you as a racist or a hypocrite at all.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary

DGreen said:


> I don't see the Chinese trying to take over our government. The Koch's maybe, but not the Chinese. They have their own problems.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary

Well put. Bravo.



Poor Purl said:


> Thank you for some good advice.
> 
> Have you posted these on the thread you spend most time on? They're even more relevant there than they are here.


 :hunf: :hunf: :hunf: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Knitted by Nan

jbandsma said:


> Some states already have it (for local seats, at least) but I think every ballot everywhere should have a "none of the above" option. And when that is the winner, none of the candidates on that ballot are allowed to run again...at least for that election.


I would love to see the option "none of the above" included on our ballot papers. In the 1950s, before I could vote as you had to be 21 to vote back then, we would say we were going to mark our papers "I vote for me, bugga all you mob." Which would then result in an informal vote. Unfortunately they say an informal vote is just a vote for the sitting member, even if you strongly disagree with his/her politics.


----------



## Designer1234

NJG said:


> And now take a look at how much worse it has gotten. I have asked more than once on these forums if those on the right think the income inequality we have today is a good thing, but they don't answer. The tough questions they don't have an answer for.


They never answer, they just ignore and then some attack. I don't remember a good conversation with any of them. They believe what they believe, they are not willing to even listen to other thoughts or different ideas. They never give them a chance.


----------



## Designer1234

jbandsma said:


> I think she misquoted me...what she quoted me as saying was directed to KnitterFromNebraska, not Designer...too much trouble to go back and look for the originals but it was part of the discussion of her (KFN) feeling that, while it was ok for SD white folks to have all kinds of accomodations like 46 days of early voting, convenient polling places, etc, that it was ridiculous for Native Americans to expect the same considerations...even when the money had been appropriated but wasn't used because the person responsible just flatly refused to do it.
> 
> Then try to say that she isn't racist. I pointed out that she makes these claims but doesn't even bother to see what she's saying.


No - I was answering Knitter from Neb. She has said we were hypocrites (finally spelled correctly by me) because we didn't answer her questions. I don't think her suggestions are feasible or doable. I wasn't taking exception to you.

She once again painted us all with the same brush and I just get weary of being put in a box even with people I agree most of the time with what they think. We are individuals.

Everyone on D and P calls us those dreadful libs. While some of us are more liberal than others we are not the same. I try to avoid doing that to anyone. She implied that anyone who didn't answer her the way she wanted us to or who avoided her questions because we didn't agree and possibly didn't want to take her on, as she is welcome here were all hypocrites. I take issue with some of her black and white statements that leave no room for differences of opinions.


----------



## NJG

And now this mess with Scalice. He himself said he was the David Duke without baggage. Duke has been in the news too, was on CNN and said if Scalice is forced out, he has a list of names of both republicans and democrats that have had ties with him in the past. Can you imagine having David Duke stand up for you. Of course, in secret, the republicans would love it, but that can't be made public. This could get very interesting before it is over.

Louie Gohmert has decided he wants Boehners job. Can you even imagine what that would be like?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> "Bush's drunken underage brawling daughters" got a pass?!? If that were true you wouldn't be commenting on it because you wouldn't have heard about it! Selective prossessing! Hypocrisy!


Shirley, I'm quoting the reply I made using the word "hypocrisy". I did NOT call you a hypocrite! Someone stated that bush's daughters got a pass from the press. I pointed out that they had not gotten a pass and that it was hypocrisy to say that they had.


----------



## NJG

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Shirley, I'm quoting the reply I made using the word "hypocrisy". I did NOT call you a hypocrite! Someone stated that bush's daughters got a pass from the press. I pointed out that they had not gotten a pass and that it was hypocrisy to say that they had.


What they got accused of, they did. That is a little different than the Obama girls, younger by the way, being called names and told they were dressing like they were going to a bar.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

NJG said:


> What they got accused of, they did. That is a little different than the Obama girls, younger by the way, being called names and told they were dressing like they were going to a bar.


The POINT I was making, was that they were not given a pass. I've never said, nor do I think that Obama's daughters should have been treated as they were. It was outrageously inappropriate. It would be pure conjecture to assume that I meant anything other than what I said.


----------



## NJG

Someone is going off the deep end in Oklahoma. Ok, I'm going to rob a liquor store, but I can't wear a hoodie, cause it is against the law!!!!!!!

After consulting with the Department of Public Safety, Senator Don Barrington has authored a bill that would make it unlawful to wear a mask, hood or covering during the commission of a crime or to intentionally conceal his or her identity in a public place.


----------



## Poor Purl

MarilynKnits said:


> Having a fancy party at the expense of all the rest of us.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## jbandsma

NJG said:


> What they got accused of, they did. That is a little different than the Obama girls, younger by the way, being called names and told they were dressing like they were going to a bar.


It isn't just that they did what they were accused of (and I never said it wasn't reported...just that they got a pass from the media), it was that what little media did cover it treated their escapades as a lark. The Bush daughters get away from their security detail to 'have a little fun...aren't they cute' type reporting. If it had been any of our kids, they'd have been on the police blotter and we'd be on the hook for the damages they caused.

Billy Carter got more bad press than those two.


----------



## MindyT

NJG said:


> Someone is going off the deep end in Oklahoma. Ok, I'm going to rob a liquor store, but I can't wear a hoodie, cause it is against the law!!!!!!!
> 
> After consulting with the Department of Public Safety, Senator Don Barrington has authored a bill that would make it unlawful to wear a mask, hood or covering during the commission of a crime or to intentionally conceal his or her identity in a public place.


There was a discussion re this subject over the weekend on local ABC radio affiliate (KGO). There is an old law in most states....not about hoodies for goodness sake....but, about covering the face and/or wearing a mask. Comes from two things, the Wild West stagecoach robberies AND the KKK.
Hoodies is simply another racist slam. So obvious to anyone that it would be laughable if not so insidious. 
The law in California apparently is from the early 20th century.


----------



## jbandsma

We got some great news yesterday about my husband's health insurance through his work.

Previously it was costing him about $800/mo (just for him, we couldn't get insurance for me at any price). Five years ago...before he'd ever used his health insurance for anything...they raised his deductible from $2000 to $10,000. I guess because they knew the ACA was coming. High deductible on meds. Every year the cost went up and the coverage got worse.

He got told yesterday that his boss now has a new provider. (Groan) That he is paying so much less for coverage that their contribution to it will now be $32 a month. (WHAT????) The deductible on medical is down to $2500. Still too high for my liking but not $10,000. There's no more deductible on medications, he can get his diabetic test supplies (strips, lancets, meter, etc) for FREE.

His boss is apologizing to the employees for listening to our governor about how it would kill his business to even check out what the ACA could do for him.

I'm flabbergasted at how much this is going to save us.

(More yarn, more yarn, more yarn.) :lol:


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> We got some great news yesterday about my husband's health insurance through his work.
> 
> Previously it was costing him about $800/mo (just for him, we couldn't get insurance for me at any price). Five years ago...before he'd ever used his health insurance for anything...they raised his deductible from $2000 to $10,000. I guess because they knew the ACA was coming. High deductible on meds. Every year the cost went up and the coverage got worse.
> 
> He got told yesterday that his boss now has a new provider. (Groan) That he is paying so much less for coverage that their contribution to it will now be $32 a month. (WHAT????) The deductible on medical is down to $2500. Still too high for my liking but not $10,000. There's no more deductible on medications, he can get his diabetic test supplies (strips, lancets, meter, etc) for FREE.
> 
> His boss is apologizing to the employees for listening to our governor about how it would kill his business to even check out what the ACA could do for him.
> 
> I'm flabbergasted at how much this is going to save us.
> 
> (More yarn, more yarn, more yarn.) :lol:


Too bad the ACA will never work.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> We got some great news yesterday about my husband's health insurance through his work.
> 
> Previously it was costing him about $800/mo (just for him, we couldn't get insurance for me at any price). Five years ago...before he'd ever used his health insurance for anything...they raised his deductible from $2000 to $10,000. I guess because they knew the ACA was coming. High deductible on meds. Every year the cost went up and the coverage got worse.
> 
> He got told yesterday that his boss now has a new provider. (Groan) That he is paying so much less for coverage that their contribution to it will now be $32 a month. (WHAT????) The deductible on medical is down to $2500. Still too high for my liking but not $10,000. There's no more deductible on medications, he can get his diabetic test supplies (strips, lancets, meter, etc) for FREE.
> 
> His boss is apologizing to the employees for listening to our governor about how it would kill his business to even check out what the ACA could do for him.
> 
> I'm flabbergasted at how much this is going to save us.
> 
> (More yarn, more yarn, more yarn.) :lol:


I haven't heard news that good in quite a while. Fantastic!

But wait - can you get coverage, too?


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> I haven't heard news that good in quite a while. Fantastic!
> 
> But wait - can you get coverage, too?


Don't need it now, I've got Medicare and a gap policy that I couldn't get turned down for. (I'm older than my husband)


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> Don't need it now, I've got Medicare and a gap policy that I couldn't get turned down for. (I'm older than my husband)


Whew. Good.


----------



## MarilynKnits

jbandsma said:


> We got some great news yesterday about my husband's health insurance through his work.
> 
> Previously it was costing him about $800/mo (just for him, we couldn't get insurance for me at any price). Five years ago...before he'd ever used his health insurance for anything...they raised his deductible from $2000 to $10,000. I guess because they knew the ACA was coming. High deductible on meds. Every year the cost went up and the coverage got worse.
> 
> He got told yesterday that his boss now has a new provider. (Groan) That he is paying so much less for coverage that their contribution to it will now be $32 a month. (WHAT????) The deductible on medical is down to $2500. Still too high for my liking but not $10,000. There's no more deductible on medications, he can get his diabetic test supplies (strips, lancets, meter, etc) for FREE.
> 
> His boss is apologizing to the employees for listening to our governor about how it would kill his business to even check out what the ACA could do for him.
> 
> I'm flabbergasted at how much this is going to save us.
> 
> (More yarn, more yarn, more yarn.) :lol:


I am so happy for you that you are getting this benefit. And for all the other people whose health issues won't bankrupt them. Now maybe if something can be done about the obscene list price of medications - - .


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> We got some great news yesterday about my husband's health insurance through his work.
> 
> Previously it was costing him about $800/mo (just for him, we couldn't get insurance for me at any price). Five years ago...before he'd ever used his health insurance for anything...they raised his deductible from $2000 to $10,000. I guess because they knew the ACA was coming. High deductible on meds. Every year the cost went up and the coverage got worse.
> 
> He got told yesterday that his boss now has a new provider. (Groan) That he is paying so much less for coverage that their contribution to it will now be $32 a month. (WHAT????) The deductible on medical is down to $2500. Still too high for my liking but not $10,000. There's no more deductible on medications, he can get his diabetic test supplies (strips, lancets, meter, etc) for FREE.
> 
> His boss is apologizing to the employees for listening to our governor about how it would kill his business to even check out what the ACA could do for him.
> 
> I'm flabbergasted at how much this is going to save us.
> 
> (More yarn, more yarn, more yarn.) :lol:


Fantastic news. My daughter, who had her own graphic arts business, had gotten her own insurance, not good, but the best she could afford. It was one of those crappy plans and was to be canceled. She didn't go into cardiac arrest like those on the right with canceled policies, but when the ACA went into affect she found a better plan and got a subsidy. Because of the economy, her business became less and less so she found a job in the graphic arts business, a job she loves by the way, so lucky her. She compared the insurance offered by her employer to the ACA and has decided to stay with the ACA, minus the subsidy because of better pay, and it is better insurance. All these people screaming about prices going up do have other choices, they just want to scream and play poor me.


----------



## MarilynKnits

NJG said:


> Fantastic news. My daughter, who had her own graphic arts business, had gotten her own insurance, not good, but the best she could afford. It was one of those crappy plans and was to be canceled. She didn't go into cardiac arrest like those on the right with canceled policies, but when the ACA went into affect she found a better plan and got a subsidy. Because of the economy, her business became less and less so she found a job in the graphic arts business, a job she loves by the way, so lucky her. She compared the insurance offered by her employer to the ACA and has decided to stay with the ACA, minus the subsidy because of better pay, and it is better insurance. All these people screaming about prices going up do have other choices, they just want to scream and play poor me.


Or they are too stupid to do meaningful research to determine which plan best suits their needs.


----------



## NJG

One of the first things on the minds of republicans in this new year is of course Keystone which the president said he would veto and what they can do to destroy social security. My understanding they use reallocation to transfer money from the retirement funds to the disability funds when money is needed. They have done this 11 times but want to stop it now. The new rule from the right would mean that any transfer would have to be balanced by new revenues or benefit cuts. Of course, they will never allow revenues so you know what that means. The disability insurance beneficiaries could face up to 20 percent cuts in their Social Security payments in late 2016. I am writing a letter to Grassley and now I get to write to the pig squealer too. I think a letter to the editor of the paper is coming too and I can't forget Blum. He is the new guy who voted no for John Boehner. Iowa has quite a group now don't they. I no longer have any representation.


----------



## Poor Purl

NJG said:


> Fantastic news. My daughter, who had her own graphic arts business, had gotten her own insurance, not good, but the best she could afford. It was one of those crappy plans and was to be canceled. She didn't go into cardiac arrest like those on the right with canceled policies, but when the ACA went into affect she found a better plan and got a subsidy. Because of the economy, her business became less and less so she found a job in the graphic arts business, a job she loves by the way, so lucky her. She compared the insurance offered by her employer to the ACA and has decided to stay with the ACA, minus the subsidy because of better pay, and it is better insurance. All these people screaming about prices going up do have other choices, they just want to scream and play poor me.


This really _is_ good news, and apparently because of the ACA your daughter had a choice, which she made wisely. And to have found a job she likes - that's almost too much. :hunf: :hunf: :hunf:


----------



## NJG

Poor Purl said:


> This really _is_ good news, and apparently because of the ACA your daughter had a choice, which she made wisely. And to have found a job she likes - that's almost too much. :hunf: :hunf: :hunf:


I agree. She worked for Target for a couple of months and hated it, loves Target, but hated working there. Then she got the call for the other job and was thrilled. She is a night owl and when working for herself, she was able to set her own hours and work later and sleep in in the mornings. She now works from 4 pm till 12:30 am so it has worked out perfect for her.


----------



## Designer1234

I got back from the Doctor and have found out I don't have to have surgery!!!

I have to take it very slow and it is going to take awhile to get Back to normal. The diverticulis is ongoing and It doesn't sound as if it is feasible to have surgery unless it is life threatening. So all in all I am relieved.

He said it would take up to 2 months to get feeling like myself and I HAD to take it easy so that is what I will do.

Iam not going to teach my class until I feel a lot better but I WILL teach it. Thanks for your kind caring thoughts. 

Shirley


----------



## Poor Purl

Designer1234 said:


> I got back from the Doctor and have found out I don't have to have surgery!!!
> 
> I have to take it very slow and it is going to take awhile to get Back to normal. The diverticulis is ongoing and It doesn't sound as if it is feasible to have surgery unless it is life threatening. So all in all I am relieved.
> 
> He said it would take up to 2 months to get feeling like myself and I HAD to take it easy so that is what I will do.
> 
> Iam not going to teach my class until I feel a lot better but I WILL teach it. Thanks for your kind caring thoughts.
> 
> Shirley


Thanks for sharing your good news. I wish someone would tell me to take it easy.


----------



## SQM

Glad you escaped the knife, Shirley.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

Designer1234 said:


> I got back from the Doctor and have found out I don't have to have surgery!!!
> 
> I have to take it very slow and it is going to take awhile to get Back to normal. The diverticulis is ongoing and It doesn't sound as if it is feasible to have surgery unless it is life threatening. So all in all I am relieved.
> 
> He said it would take up to 2 months to get feeling like myself and I HAD to take it easy so that is what I will do.
> 
> Iam not going to teach my class until I feel a lot better but I WILL teach it. Thanks for your kind caring thoughts.
> 
> Shirley


I am very glad to hear that you do not need surgery. It must be such a relief. Take is easy and rest, we are all thinking of you. :thumbup:


----------



## susanmos2000

Designer1234 said:


> I got back from the Doctor and have found out I don't have to have surgery!!!
> 
> I have to take it very slow and it is going to take awhile to get Back to normal. The diverticulis is ongoing and It doesn't sound as if it is feasible to have surgery unless it is life threatening. So all in all I am relieved.
> 
> He said it would take up to 2 months to get feeling like myself and I HAD to take it easy so that is what I will do.
> 
> Iam not going to teach my class until I feel a lot better but I WILL teach it. Thanks for your kind caring thoughts.
> 
> Shirley


You must be incredibly relieved, Shirlely--abdominal surgery is no fun. Congratulations!


----------



## cookiequeen

Poor Purl said:


> Thanks for sharing your good news. I wish someone would tell me to take it easy.


Take it easy!


----------



## damemary

Good news from Shirley. She doesn't need to have surgery at this time. Her doctor caught it just in time and will continue to closely monitor her. Her instructions are for Shirley to rest as much as possible to get her strength back. If there are questions, send me PM and I will check it out.


----------



## Poor Purl

cookiequeen said:


> Take it easy!


You must be my fairy godmother. You made my fondest wish come true.


----------



## MarilynKnits

Designer1234 said:


> I got back from the Doctor and have found out I don't have to have surgery!!!
> 
> I have to take it very slow and it is going to take awhile to get Back to normal. The diverticulis is ongoing and It doesn't sound as if it is feasible to have surgery unless it is life threatening. So all in all I am relieved.
> 
> He said it would take up to 2 months to get feeling like myself and I HAD to take it easy so that is what I will do.
> 
> Iam not going to teach my class until I feel a lot better but I WILL teach it. Thanks for your kind caring thoughts.
> 
> Shirley


Your main job is to take care of yourself and feel well again. When you are ready to teach, I hope to still be here, needles and yarn in hand. Just don't overdo.


----------



## damemary

MarilynKnits said:


> I am so happy for you that you are getting this benefit. And for all the other people whose health issues won't bankrupt them. Now maybe if something can be done about the obscene list price of medications - - .


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary

Happy New Year indeed.



NJG said:


> Fantastic news. My daughter, who had her own graphic arts business, had gotten her own insurance, not good, but the best she could afford. It was one of those crappy plans and was to be canceled. She didn't go into cardiac arrest like those on the right with canceled policies, but when the ACA went into affect she found a better plan and got a subsidy. Because of the economy, her business became less and less so she found a job in the graphic arts business, a job she loves by the way, so lucky her. She compared the insurance offered by her employer to the ACA and has decided to stay with the ACA, minus the subsidy because of better pay, and it is better insurance. All these people screaming about prices going up do have other choices, they just want to scream and play poor me.


----------



## damemary

I guess all we can do is keep them honest and let them know we're watching.



NJG said:


> One of the first things on the minds of republicans in this new year is of course Keystone which the president said he would veto and what they can do to destroy social security. My understanding they use reallocation to transfer money from the retirement funds to the disability funds when money is needed. They have done this 11 times but want to stop it now. The new rule from the right would mean that any transfer would have to be balanced by new revenues or benefit cuts. Of course, they will never allow revenues so you know what that means. The disability insurance beneficiaries could face up to 20 percent cuts in their Social Security payments in late 2016. I am writing a letter to Grassley and now I get to write to the pig squealer too. I think a letter to the editor of the paper is coming too and I can't forget Blum. He is the new guy who voted no for John Boehner. Iowa has quite a group now don't they. I no longer have any representation.


----------



## damemary

Eureka! Happy New Year Shirley.



Designer1234 said:


> I got back from the Doctor and have found out I don't have to have surgery!!!
> 
> I have to take it very slow and it is going to take awhile to get Back to normal. The diverticulis is ongoing and It doesn't sound as if it is feasible to have surgery unless it is life threatening. So all in all I am relieved.
> 
> He said it would take up to 2 months to get feeling like myself and I HAD to take it easy so that is what I will do.
> 
> Iam not going to teach my class until I feel a lot better but I WILL teach it. Thanks for your kind caring thoughts.
> 
> Shirley


----------



## MindyT

As to the R's and their obsession with the keystone pipeline.....now that oil prices are in the toilet (good for the middle and lower incomes) , why would we want a huge pollution mess running down the whole of our country . And we don't benefit. It's canadian oil going to the coast for shipment out to the world. It won't make it cheaper for USA. Now if they could figure a pipeline for excess water from the Midwest and east, to get to the west and southwest, THAT would be a public works project which would benefit millions. The times when there is the excess runoff in the spring which causes flooding, etc.


----------



## Poor Purl

MindyT said:


> As to the R's and their obsession with the keystone pipeline.....now that oil prices are in the toilet (good for the middle and lower incomes) , why would we want a huge pollution mess running down the whole of our country . And we don't benefit. It's canadian oil going to the coast for shipment out to the world. It won't make it cheaper for USA. Now if they could figure a pipeline for excess water from the Midwest and east, to get to the west and southwest, THAT would be a public works project which would benefit millions. The times when there is the excess runoff in the spring which causes flooding, etc.


A water pipeline would be a great thing, and all it would do if it burst was irrigate the land (or break through sidewalks, the way it does here). And here's another thing: figure out how to desalinate seawater, the way Israel has, so it can be used in agriculture, and drinkable water saved for people.


----------



## MindyT

Poor Purl said:


> A water pipeline would be a great thing, and all it would do if it burst was irrigate the land (or break through sidewalks, the way it does here). And here's another thing: figure out how to desalinate seawater, the way Israel has, so it can be used in agriculture, and drinkable water saved for people.


Totally! They have been desalinating seawater forever on submarines. Israel has done it for decades. Where is our brain?


----------



## Poor Purl

MindyT said:


> Totally! They have been desalinating seawater forever on submarines. Israel has done it for decades. Where is our brain?


It's all fracked up.


----------



## damemary

Maybe we can start Congress digging for a brain. Labor will do them good.



MindyT said:


> Totally! They have been desalinating seawater forever on submarines. Israel has done it for decades. Where is our brain?


----------



## damemary

Poor Purl said:


> It's all fracked up.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: You crack me up.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

MindyT said:


> Totally! They have been desalinating seawater forever on submarines. Israel has done it for decades. Where is our brain?


We have two desalination plants in Perth, supplying 50% of our water to households and there is talk of the necessity to build a third. There is also talk of using treated sewerage to supplement our water supply.

RECYCLED water from showers, washing machines and toilets will be pumped into Perth's underground drinking water supply after the State Government today officially signed off on a plan by the Water Corporation. 
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/treated-sewage-gets-all-clear-for-drinking-water-from-state-government/story-fnhocxo3-1226689519912

Australia really is a very dry continent and Perth is dryer than the Eastern States.

I use bottled water for drinking and cooking. I pay $12 for a 15 litre bottle. A lot of people are going back to the old method of installing rainwater and collecting their rainwater. Unfortunately, with our long, dry, hot summers we cannot be self sufficient with our water supply unless we go back to using the old 5,000 or 10,000 gallon or larger tanks and these are really too big for most smaller suburban blocks.


----------



## damemary

Awareness of the challenges are the first step to a solution. Bravo.



EveMCooke said:


> We have two desalination plants in Perth, supplying 50% of our water to households and there is talk of the necessity to build a third. There is also talk of using treated sewerage to supplement our water supply.
> 
> RECYCLED water from showers, washing machines and toilets will be pumped into Perth's underground drinking water supply after the State Government today officially signed off on a plan by the Water Corporation.
> http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/treated-sewage-gets-all-clear-for-drinking-water-from-state-government/story-fnhocxo3-1226689519912
> 
> Australia really is a very dry continent and Perth is dryer than the Eastern States.
> 
> I use bottled water for drinking and cooking. I pay $12 for a 15 litre bottle. A lot of people are going back to the old method of installing rainwater and collecting their rainwater. Unfortunately, with our long, dry, hot summers we cannot be self sufficient with our water supply unless we go back to using the old 5,000 or 10,000 gallon or larger tanks and these are really too big for most smaller suburban blocks.


----------



## Camacho

Poor Purl said:


> I agree about term limits. I'd hate to lose Bernie Sanders just because time's up. But what do you mean by "rotation in office"?


Rotation in office is part of how things are run in my church. There are offices, and a given individual can hold a particular office for x number of years in any given y years, so if say so-and-so was on the executive board for one three-year term they have to wait at least six years before being eligible to be on the board again, for example. Or one may be appointed to a given office, for x years in y -- and then after that number of years, the first person may be re-appointed or re-elected. It feels a little softer than "term limits," which implies to me, anyway, that once one's term limit has been reached that that individual may no longer ever fill that position again.


----------



## NJG

Did anyone watch Rachel tonight? She told the story of John Ensign, the republican who was going to run for president, but then had to admit that he had had an affair. What a hypocrite. Of course he was a wonderful Christan family man, blah, blah, blah. Even after he said it was over he was found in a motel with the woman by her husband. They were both friends of Ensign and worked for him. Hampton tried to get Fox News, Megan Kelly to talk about it on air, but Fox News wouldn't do it. Tom Coburn was involved in trying to get Ensign to stop the affair. Even Rick Santorum was contacted and asked for help and all he did was tip Ensign off that it had been given to the press. Ensign could and should have gone to prison, but the DOJ decided not to prosecute. Hampton was charged and got probation for a year. I don't remember hearing about it at the time.


----------



## Poor Purl

Camacho said:


> Rotation in office is part of how things are run in my church. There are offices, and a given individual can hold a particular office for x number of years in any given y years, so if say so-and-so was on the executive board for one three-year term they have to wait at least six years before being eligible to be on the board again, for example. Or one may be appointed to a given office, for x years in y -- and then after that number of years, the first person may be re-appointed or re-elected. It feels a little softer than "term limits," which implies to me, anyway, that once one's term limit has been reached that that individual may no longer ever fill that position again.


That does seem better than term limits. But first, you're back in Mass.? What's going on with the house? And are you still planning for next week??? Please say yes!!!


----------



## SQM

Camacho said:


> Rotation in office is part of how things are run in my church. There are offices, and a given individual can hold a particular office for x number of years in any given y years, so if say so-and-so was on the executive board for one three-year term they have to wait at least six years before being eligible to be on the board again, for example. Or one may be appointed to a given office, for x years in y -- and then after that number of years, the first person may be re-appointed or re-elected. It feels a little softer than "term limits," which implies to me, anyway, that once one's term limit has been reached that that individual may no longer ever fill that position again.


This read like a dreaded algebra word problem.


----------



## Camacho

damemary said:


> I'm anxious to hear about your new home and your experiences. We're thinking of downsizing and unsure how to accomplish it. Safe trip.


The first step was imagining moving out of this house. Then my daughter started leaning on us to move closer to her, and we (DD and I) looked at a lot of houses on realtor.com, which seems to be an excellent site. After we had looked at hundreds of houses there, we started looking at available land and at house plans. My daughter found a modular home builder, and we also looked at every model on their web site. When every single house plan we looked at looked as though it would need some major modifications and might not be doable in a modular format, we started playing with home design and independently came up with nearly identical house plans for David's and my new house. I came up with the final one.

More details in either smaller chunks or in a PM. It is 1:30 a.m. and I still need to finish unpacking.


----------



## SQM

Camacho said:


> The first step was imagining moving out of this house. Then my daughter started leaning on us to move closer to her, and we (DD and I) looked at a lot of houses on realtor.com, which seems to be an excellent site. After we had looked at hundreds of houses there, we started looking at available land and at house plans. My daughter found a modular home builder, and we also looked at every model on their web site. When every single house plan we looked at looked as though it would need some major modifications and might not be doable in a modular format, we started playing with home design and independently came up with nearly identical house plans for David's and my new house. I came up with the final one.
> 
> More details in either smaller chunks or in a PM. It is 1:30 a.m. and I still need to finish unpacking.


When you wake up - how far did you move? I am contemplating one myself.


----------



## damemary

You must be exhausted, but what an exciting time for you!



Camacho said:


> The first step was imagining moving out of this house. Then my daughter started leaning on us to move closer to her, and we (DD and I) looked at a lot of houses on realtor.com, which seems to be an excellent site. After we had looked at hundreds of houses there, we started looking at available land and at house plans. My daughter found a modular home builder, and we also looked at every model on their web site. When every single house plan we looked at looked as though it would need some major modifications and might not be doable in a modular format, we started playing with home design and independently came up with nearly identical house plans for David's and my new house. I came up with the final one.
> 
> More details in either smaller chunks or in a PM. It is 1:30 a.m. and I still need to finish unpacking.


----------



## Camacho

Poor Purl said:


> That does seem better than term limits. But first, you're back in Mass.? What's going on with the house? And are you still planning for next week??? Please say yes!!!


Yes, yes, and YES.
On Monday, DH went to his 10 a.m. job interview and was calling DD and me by 10:30 to tell us that the department head told him that if we were already living in the area she would have him teach one course in the term that starts later this month, but since he is moving up in June she will have two or three courses for him to teach in the fall. DD's mil came over and DD and DGD joined us a little later so we could order all the curtain fabric that we had not yet ordered. Elizabeth is 17 months old now and weighs 17 pounds, and is just under 30 inches tall. Everything that is long enough for her is way too big around, and everything that fits her girth properly is way too short for her. She is saying more words and getting into everything, and I'm really sorry I did not take any pictures. I hope DD took some and I will check out Facebook. 
On Tuesday Eliana and Elizabeth and I went to Searsport and had a very long and productive session with the solar guy. We will have 52 solar panels on our roof providing all our electricity, and probably two mini-splits providing radiant floor heat, air conditioning, and hot water. The paperboard models that Jonathan had made were very helpful to Chuck the solar guy. Elizabeth is at that delightful age when she must be watched constantly, so...
On Wednesday we dropped Elizabeth off at her Grammy's house while DD and I had a very long and fruitful session with Peter at Showcase Homes. Because everything about the new house has to come in under $400,000, we are cutting back on some things. The soapstone counters that David was so insistent on have now turned into granite, for example. The integrated sink that I have been adamant about may turn into a stainless steel undermount sink, but I don't know. We have had some bad experiences with both undermount and drop-in sinks. The antique oiled bronze hardware has turned into brushed nickel, or in some cases, chrome. It just changes the color scheme a bit, but I will be just as happy with it. We made a brief stop into Lowe's after that to buy drawer handles for my new desk, and handed them over to DD's fil to take to the carpenter who has built my new desk when we picked up Elizabeth.
Thursday Eliana and Elizabeth picked me up and we went to Lowe's to shop for lighting. One ceiling fan that I had decided a few months ago that I want in the bedrooms and offices is no longer available. We were told that it had been discontinued and there were only 200 left, that are all in California and would have to be shipped from there. So we found other ceiling fans that will work but not be quite as nifty. But we do have most of the lighting taken care of.
Then because of David's tutoring schedule, we went to a Vietnamese restaurant for lunch that I can hardly wait to go back to. It was lovely. We had hot pot for lunch, and when I paid, I asked the waiter to pack up the leftovers for Eliana to eat on her break at work. The waiter has a two-year-old of his own, so he was very sweet with our little one, and he had the manager come over to the table to explain the hot pot because he, the waiter, had never dealt with hot pot before. This waiter was all excited to be learning something new. It was delightful to watch. And the manager also loved Elizabeth and told Eliana to have more children. The hot pot had beef, shrimp, and squid, and cabbage, with rice noodles and spicy hot broth and mild hot broth. (We had asked for no egg, tomato, sesame, sugar, or wheat, and they had told us that hot pot contains whatever meats they have on hand that day.) It was Elizabeth's first taste of squid and she loved it. I had had squid before and had never liked it, but this squid was delicious. Eliana had wanted to go there because Matt's cousin's wife recommended it very highly and also because she would be sure to get a lot of ginger, which neither her husband nor her mother-in-law can eat. There was a group of older women at the next table who all oohed and aah-ed over Elizabeth on their way out after their lunch, and some of them claimed that they had not known that there was a toddler/baby at the next table. Meanwhile I gave the waiter a 30% tip instead of my usual 20%, as a toddler tip to make up for the assortment of utensils and food and water surrounding the high chair, to say nothing of both restaurant staff and mother and grandmother all watching her constantly and reminding her to keep her bowl on the table and not to stand up in her high chair and not to eat off the floor, and not to use eating utensils that have been on the floor, and not to tip her bowl over herself..... Ah, yes. Tears of joy because Elizabeth is developing normally. Tears of utter frustration and exhaustion because -- Elizabeth is developing normally.

The minute I was loaded onto the bus I fell asleep and woke up in Boston within a few blocks of South Station, and there was David to meet me!

From here on until the house goes onto its foundation I will be doing all my business with these guys via telephone, e-mail, and Eliana. My next trip to Maine will be in March, and if it is late enough, I will visit the site, and will probably get to see a big hole in the ground where the foundation will be, but may get to see the house being set on its foundation.

Today our organizer is coming over with two assistants to help us stage the house in Waltham to sell, and to start packing.

I am looking forward to our trip to New York next week.


----------



## Camacho

SQM said:


> This read like a dreaded algebra word problem.


Oh I'm sorry! My deep dark past is shining through.


----------



## Camacho

We are all Charlie Hebdo. We are all Muslims.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

NJG said:


> Did anyone watch Rachel tonight? She told the story of John Ensign, the republican who was going to run for president, but then had to admit that he had had an affair. What a hypocrite. Of course he was a wonderful Christan family man, blah, blah, blah. Even after he said it was over he was found in a motel with the woman by her husband. They were both friends of Ensign and worked for him. Hampton tried to get Fox News, Megan Kelly to talk about it on air, but Fox News wouldn't do it. Tom Coburn was involved in trying to get Ensign to stop the affair. Even Rick Santorum was contacted and asked for help and all he did was tip Ensign off that it had been given to the press. Ensign could and should have gone to prison, but the DOJ decided not to prosecute. Hampton was charged and got probation for a year. I don't remember hearing about it at the time.


What did Ensign do that was illegal?


----------



## MindyT

As to term limits. We have had them in California for about 20 years...maybe more. Willie Brown was Speaker of the House for many, many terms. "The people" got tired of it, and voted in term limits so the polititians would be termed out. Willie is a savvy Democrat and worked with both sides of the isle and really got things done. Since he's gone, California has taken it's place as a failing state. So many problems and no smart people in office.

Since term limits, the only people who win are lobbyists. Until we fix lobbying and the obscene amount of money in politics, I think we shall continue our downward spiral into a 3rd world country, where we become an oligarchy.

Remember....Corporations are People !


----------



## damemary

MindyT said:


> As to term limits. We have had them in California for about 20 years...maybe more. Willie Brown was Speaker of the House for many, many terms. "The people" got tired of it, and voted in term limits so the polititians would be termed out. Willie is a savvy Democrat and worked with both sides of the isle and really got things done. Since he's gone, California has taken it's place as a failing state. So many problems and no smart people in office.
> 
> Since term limits, the only people who win are lobbyists. Until we fix lobbying and the obscene amount of money in politics, I think we shall continue our downward spiral into a 3rd world country, where we become an oligarchy.
> 
> Remember....Corporations are People !


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## SQM

Camacho said:


> We are all Charlie Hebdo. We are all Muslims.


I'm not a muslim. they want to kill me.


----------



## NJG

MaidInBedlam said:


> What did Ensign do that was illegal?


It had to do with getting this guy a job as a lobbyist. Any person who is a congress person or staff member has to have a "cooling off period" of one year before they can lobby congress. This was a job that Ensign set up for him that he took and he started immediately to lobby Ensign himself for whatever this company wanted from him.


----------



## Poor Purl

Camacho said:


> Oh I'm sorry! My deep dark past is shining through.


Don't worry. You sent that message to a fellow mathematician. What the sloth dothn't know dothn't hurt her.


----------



## Poor Purl

MaidInBedlam said:


> What did Ensign do that was illegal?


He had his parents write checks to the couple, in amounts that came under the limit at which amounts would be audited or examined or whatever it's called. In other words, he bribed the couple and tried to cover it up using his parents' account.

I'm sure he did other things as well.


----------



## Poor Purl

Camacho said:


> Yes, yes, and YES.
> On Monday, DH went to his 10 a.m. job interview and was calling DD and me by 10:30 to tell us that the department head told him that if we were already living in the area she would have him teach one course in the term that starts later this month, but since he is moving up in June she will have two or three courses for him to teach in the fall. DD's mil came over and DD and DGD joined us a little later so we could order all the curtain fabric that we had not yet ordered. Elizabeth is 17 months old now and weighs 17 pounds, and is just under 30 inches tall. Everything that is long enough for her is way too big around, and everything that fits her girth properly is way too short for her. She is saying more words and getting into everything, and I'm really sorry I did not take any pictures. I hope DD took some and I will check out Facebook.
> On Tuesday Eliana and Elizabeth and I went to Searsport and had a very long and productive session with the solar guy. We will have 52 solar panels on our roof providing all our electricity, and probably two mini-splits providing radiant floor heat, air conditioning, and hot water. The paperboard models that Jonathan had made were very helpful to Chuck the solar guy. Elizabeth is at that delightful age when she must be watched constantly, so...
> On Wednesday we dropped Elizabeth off at her Grammy's house while DD and I had a very long and fruitful session with Peter at Showcase Homes. Because everything about the new house has to come in under $400,000, we are cutting back on some things. The soapstone counters that David was so insistent on have now turned into granite, for example. The integrated sink that I have been adamant about may turn into a stainless steel undermount sink, but I don't know. We have had some bad experiences with both undermount and drop-in sinks. The antique oiled bronze hardware has turned into brushed nickel, or in some cases, chrome. It just changes the color scheme a bit, but I will be just as happy with it. We made a brief stop into Lowe's after that to buy drawer handles for my new desk, and handed them over to DD's fil to take to the carpenter who has built my new desk when we picked up Elizabeth.
> Thursday Eliana and Elizabeth picked me up and we went to Lowe's to shop for lighting. One ceiling fan that I had decided a few months ago that I want in the bedrooms and offices is no longer available. We were told that it had been discontinued and there were only 200 left, that are all in California and would have to be shipped from there. So we found other ceiling fans that will work but not be quite as nifty. But we do have most of the lighting taken care of.
> Then because of David's tutoring schedule, we went to a Vietnamese restaurant for lunch that I can hardly wait to go back to. It was lovely. We had hot pot for lunch, and when I paid, I asked the waiter to pack up the leftovers for Eliana to eat on her break at work. The waiter has a two-year-old of his own, so he was very sweet with our little one, and he had the manager come over to the table to explain the hot pot because he, the waiter, had never dealt with hot pot before. This waiter was all excited to be learning something new. It was delightful to watch. And the manager also loved Elizabeth and told Eliana to have more children. The hot pot had beef, shrimp, and squid, and cabbage, with rice noodles and spicy hot broth and mild hot broth. (We had asked for no egg, tomato, sesame, sugar, or wheat, and they had told us that hot pot contains whatever meats they have on hand that day.) It was Elizabeth's first taste of squid and she loved it. I had had squid before and had never liked it, but this squid was delicious. Eliana had wanted to go there because Matt's cousin's wife recommended it very highly and also because she would be sure to get a lot of ginger, which neither her husband nor her mother-in-law can eat. There was a group of older women at the next table who all oohed and aah-ed over Elizabeth on their way out after their lunch, and some of them claimed that they had not known that there was a toddler/baby at the next table. Meanwhile I gave the waiter a 30% tip instead of my usual 20%, as a toddler tip to make up for the assortment of utensils and food and water surrounding the high chair, to say nothing of both restaurant staff and mother and grandmother all watching her constantly and reminding her to keep her bowl on the table and not to stand up in her high chair and not to eat off the floor, and not to use eating utensils that have been on the floor, and not to tip her bowl over herself..... Ah, yes. Tears of joy because Elizabeth is developing normally. Tears of utter frustration and exhaustion because -- Elizabeth is developing normally.
> 
> The minute I was loaded onto the bus I fell asleep and woke up in Boston within a few blocks of South Station, and there was David to meet me!
> 
> From here on until the house goes onto its foundation I will be doing all my business with these guys via telephone, e-mail, and Eliana. My next trip to Maine will be in March, and if it is late enough, I will visit the site, and will probably get to see a big hole in the ground where the foundation will be, but may get to see the house being set on its foundation.
> 
> Today our organizer is coming over with two assistants to help us stage the house in Waltham to sell, and to start packing.
> 
> I am looking forward to our trip to New York next week.


You certainly had a productive few days, and they sound enjoyable as well. Your GD sounds like a lot of fun. Too bad I won't have any (sob sob), but I guess I can always adopt.

Seriously, it doesn't seem that all this running around has done you any harm. Can't wait to meet.


----------



## SQM

Poor Purl said:


> Don't worry. You sent that message to a fellow mathematician. What the sloth dothn't know dothn't hurt her.


I was thinking of PP when I read the message.


----------



## Camacho

SQM said:


> I'm not a muslim. they want to kill me.


The terrorists' behavior is an affront to Islam and goes directly against the Qur'anic imperative of freedom of speech. Their heinous acts fan the flames of fear and hatred and make the world more dangerous for both Muslims and non-Muslims.

I am reminded of the quotation from Martin Niemöller:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out 
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out 
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for meand there was no one left to speak for me.

We are all Muslims in the sense that now they are coming after the Muslims. The trade unionists, the socialists, and the Jews have been demonized, and now the Muslims are being demonized by the media.

I liked the excellent article by Daisy Khan in Quartz, "What cartoonists and terrorists have in common -- they both got Islam all wrong" http://qz.com/323700/what-cartoonists-and-terrorists-have-in-common-they-got-islam-all-wrong/
The title states what I have been thinking. The article outlines how the principles of Islam/the Qur'an are the same as principles on which Western society and government are based. The writer's personal experience is similar to that of other Muslims I have known, who came to America because of these common principles.


----------



## Poor Purl

Camacho said:


> The terrorists' behavior is an affront to Islam and goes directly against the Qur'anic imperative of freedom of speech. Their heinous acts fan the flames of fear and hatred and make the world more dangerous for both Muslims and non-Muslims.
> 
> I am reminded of the quotation from Martin Niemöller:
> 
> First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out
> Because I was not a Socialist.
> 
> Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out
> Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
> 
> Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out
> Because I was not a Jew.
> 
> Then they came for meand there was no one left to speak for me.
> 
> We are all Muslims in the sense that now they are coming after the Muslims. The trade unionists, the socialists, and the Jews have been demonized, and now the Muslims are being demonized by the media.
> 
> I liked the excellent article by Daisy Khan in Quartz, "What cartoonists and terrorists have in common -- they both got Islam all wrong" http://qz.com/323700/what-cartoonists-and-terrorists-have-in-common-they-got-islam-all-wrong/
> The title states what I have been thinking. The article outlines how the principles of Islam/the Qur'an are the same as principles on which Western society and government are based. The writer's personal experience is similar to that of other Muslims I have known, who came to America because of these common principles.


Well said, Camacho. I've got to look up that article you refer to, but after I've had my coffee in the morning.


----------



## DGreen

Ran across this on Daily Kos and it's very interesting.

Remember how Republicans used to mock California as a failed state? Greece on the Pacific? Well, a few years ago, voters kicked Republicans out of power and changed the absurd supermajority budget requirements that had given minority conservatives veto power over state government.

The result? With voter approval, the state raised taxes on the highest income earners to fund education. It started to reinvest in water and transportation infrastructure and rebuild the social safety net. It completed the implementation of a robust cap-and-trade program to restrict carbon emissions and fund sustainability projects. And the result? A rapidly growing economy and surging tax revenue. 

The results are in: one way of governing works. The other doesn't.

Raise taxes on the most wealthy. It has worked historically and it will work now.


----------



## Poor Purl

DGreen said:


> Ran across this on Daily Kos and it's very interesting.
> 
> Remember how Republicans used to mock California as a failed state? Greece on the Pacific? Well, a few years ago, voters kicked Republicans out of power and changed the absurd supermajority budget requirements that had given minority conservatives veto power over state government.
> 
> The result? With voter approval, the state raised taxes on the highest income earners to fund education. It started to reinvest in water and transportation infrastructure and rebuild the social safety net. It completed the implementation of a robust cap-and-trade program to restrict carbon emissions and fund sustainability projects. And the result? A rapidly growing economy and surging tax revenue.
> 
> The results are in: one way of governing works. The other doesn't.
> 
> Raise taxes on the most wealthy. It has worked historically and it will work now.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## jbandsma

MarilynKnits said:


> I am so happy for you that you are getting this benefit. And for all the other people whose health issues won't bankrupt them. Now maybe if something can be done about the obscene list price of medications - - .


Should have known it was too good to be true. Oh yes, the health insurance is fine. That's still costing us less.

But in that bill the new congress just enacted? It cancelled our pension. And we'll be losing 20% of the SS.

What's the use of even trying any more?


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> Should have known it was too good to be true. Oh yes, the health insurance is fine. That's still costing us less.
> 
> But in that bill the new congress just enacted? It cancelled our pension. And we'll be losing 20% of the SS.
> 
> What's the use of even trying any more?


Are you talking about the new house rule for disability SS? I commented on that on p 72. It is something they are going to use to blackmail the democrats with so who knows where it will end and what they will try next. They have done reallocations 11 times with no problem, but now all of a sudden it has to change. I wrote my new congressman in the house, to voice my opinion, not that it will do any good, and I also wrote a letter to the editor of our local paper. Everyone I talked to do not know about it, so I put it in the paper.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/congressional-leaders-hammer-out-deal-to-allow-pension-plans-to-cut-retiree-benefits/2014/12/09/4650d420-7ef6-11e4-9f38-95a187e4c1f7_story.html

Here is some reading about the pension plan hack job they did. Anything they can do for the corporations they will do. This way the CEO'S can keep more of their profits in their pockets instead of paying those pensions. It really ticks me off that the democrats voted for this too. I don't think they wanted too, but it is always left to the last minute so all that crap gets in. Killing part of Dodd Frank too so the banks can use our money to play games with like they did before. I get so angry at those idiots. I am totally represented now by republicans, so actually, I have no representation.


----------



## jbandsma

No, I'm talking about the fact that our pension plan was covered by federal insurance, like the banks are, and that was just killed by our new "conservative" government.

And we have received notice that we will not receive any more checks after the one at the first of Feb. because of it.

It's a good thing my husband didn't wait to take his pension when he was eligible for the full thing...next Dec. He had to start taking a reduced amount at 55 because his job went away and he couldn't find work for almost 2 years.

He worked for 30 years, taking less in take home pay in order to have a healthy pension...and without what we got when he had no work we'd have lost everything. Now we won't even have that. He's working 60 hours a week NOW (except for the weeks he has an extra 40 from home) and it looks like he'll have to die at the job.

Because of that, we'll lose 20% of the SS...which won't be coming for some time yet.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> Should have known it was too good to be true. Oh yes, the health insurance is fine. That's still costing us less.
> 
> But in that bill the new congress just enacted? It cancelled our pension. And we'll be losing 20% of the SS.
> 
> What's the use of even trying any more?


Which bill?? The one about reallocation to cover disability benefits?


----------



## jbandsma

A 'hidden' part of that one.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> A 'hidden' part of that one.


My stomach just rolled over. I'm feeling sick.

Not as sick as you.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> My stomach just rolled over. I'm feeling sick.
> 
> Not as sick as you.


Yeah. In one fell stroke we're losing $1500/mo.


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> Yeah. In one fell stroke we're losing $1500/mo.


Please explain this further and clearly.


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> Please explain this further and clearly.


Our pension fund will not pay out any further money without the insurance surety. The pension insurance has been cancelled by the congress (it WAS a federal program like the ones that protect the funds in banks and credit unions...which will probably be next to lose it).


----------



## MarilynKnits

jbandsma said:


> Yeah. In one fell stroke we're losing $1500/mo.


Sounds like a disgusting way to manipulate what they say is balancing the budget, by hurting people like you and not taxing the rich equitably so people holding on by their teeth can have some hope of living comfortably and hoping for a safe retirement.

Any of our legislators who started out anywhere from poor to middle class have become so jaded by the wealth they amass through political activity they forget what it is to struggle financially. And as time has moved on, only the rich can afford to mount a campaign to run for elected office. They don't have any reference to what it is to be poor, to work hard for so little compensation that you need public assistance, to be one pay check or disability payment away from homelessness or starvation. No foundation for empathy, just the classic arrogance of the rich. A bunch of Marie Antoinettes. And they write laws to maintain their own wealth and have no regard for the rest of us.


----------



## jbandsma

MarilynKnits said:


> Sounds like a disgusting way to manipulate what they say is balancing the budget, by hurting people like you and not taxing the rich equitably so people holding on by their teeth can have some hope of living comfortably and hoping for a safe retirement.
> 
> Any of our legislators who started out anywhere from poor to middle class have become so jaded by the wealth they amass through political activity they forget what it is to struggle financially. And as time has moved on, only the rich can afford to mount a campaign to run for elected office. They don't have any reference to what it is to be poor, to work hard for so little compensation that you need public assistance, to be one pay check or disability payment away from homelessness or starvation. No foundation for empathy, just the classic arrogance of the rich. A bunch of Marie Antoinettes. And they write laws to maintain their own wealth and have no regard for the rest of us.


All you have to do is look back about 90 years and what happened when the banks went bust...and there was no FDIC protecting people's money. When you worked for 25 or 30 years and (maybe) got a gold watch and went home to starve.

Back we go to the "good old days".


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> No, I'm talking about the fact that our pension plan was covered by federal insurance, like the banks are, and that was just killed by our new "conservative" government.
> 
> And we have received notice that we will not receive any more checks after the one at the first of Feb. because of it.
> 
> It's a good thing my husband didn't wait to take his pension when he was eligible for the full thing...next Dec. He had to start taking a reduced amount at 55 because his job went away and he couldn't find work for almost 2 years.
> 
> He worked for 30 years, taking less in take home pay in order to have a healthy pension...and without what we got when he had no work we'd have lost everything. Now we won't even have that. He's working 60 hours a week NOW (except for the weeks he has an extra 40 from home) and it looks like he'll have to die at the job.
> 
> Because of that, we'll lose 20% of the SS...which won't be coming for some time yet.


This must be a nightmare for you. It's one thing for them to stick it to the "undeserving poor"; they can make the public go along with that piece of Scrooginess. But to take away what you've already paid for by working for less - that's just theft, plain and simple, legalized theft. $1500 a month is an awful lot to be deprived of. All so that the Kochs and the Romneys don't have to be bothered with higher tax rates.


----------



## Poor Purl

MarilynKnits said:


> Sounds like a disgusting way to manipulate what they say is balancing the budget, by hurting people like you and not taxing the rich equitably so people holding on by their teeth can have some hope of living comfortably and hoping for a safe retirement.
> 
> Any of our legislators who started out anywhere from poor to middle class have become so jaded by the wealth they amass through political activity they forget what it is to struggle financially. And as time has moved on, only the rich can afford to mount a campaign to run for elected office. They don't have any reference to what it is to be poor, to work hard for so little compensation that you need public assistance, to be one pay check or disability payment away from homelessness or starvation. No foundation for empathy, just the classic arrogance of the rich. A bunch of Marie Antoinettes. And they write laws to maintain their own wealth and have no regard for the rest of us.


The Kennedys weren't like that. Not even the Rockefellers were so cold. It's a new kind of greed, very vindictive.


----------



## jbandsma

Poor Purl said:


> This must be a nightmare for you. It's one thing for them to stick it to the "undeserving poor"; they can make the public go along with that piece of Scrooginess. But to take away what you've already paid for by working for less - that's just theft, plain and simple, legalized theft. $1500 a month is an awful lot to be deprived of. All so that the Kochs and the Romneys don't have to be bothered with higher tax rates.


We didn't have a lot of things most people have so that we could buy a house and visit my husband's family in Holland every 4 or 5 years.

Didn't have a car until we were married almost 23 years, always walked, rode bikes or took the bus. Baked all my own bread, made menus and stuck to them. Didn't go to movies or other entertainments, nor out to restaurants.

Simply so that when the day came that we'd have the time and the money to do what we wanted to without worrying about it. Maybe be able to help the kids when they need it. (And I have a son with MS who can no longer work, has been getting minimal disability and I'd been helping out. I hate thinking what this is going to do to him and I won't be able to help any more)

We did everything these assholes are saying people should do. Just to watch them take it all away.


----------



## jbandsma

You know, I've still got a good stash of yarn...anybody for sending willy warmers to congress? In size extra, extra small? 

Make the point that they haven't got the cojones to do what's right for ALL the people.


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> You know, I've still got a good stash of yarn...anybody for sending willy warmers to congress? In size extra, extra small?
> 
> Make the point that they haven't got the cojones to do what's right for ALL the people.


Best laugh yet. I am too lazy to post on main. I want to make mittens but the pattern is for adult med. and I want small. Assuming my gauge is perfect, do I go up or down a needle size.


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> Best laugh yet. I am too lazy to post on main. I want to make mittens but the pattern is for adult med. and I want small. Assuming my gauge is perfect, do I go up or down a needle size.


Down.

I think. Or why not find a pattern with the size you need?


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> We didn't have a lot of things most people have so that we could buy a house and visit my husband's family in Holland every 4 or 5 years.
> 
> Didn't have a car until we were married almost 23 years, always walked, rode bikes or took the bus. Baked all my own bread, made menus and stuck to them. Didn't go to movies or other entertainments, nor out to restaurants.
> 
> Simply so that when the day came that we'd have the time and the money to do what we wanted to without worrying about it. Maybe be able to help the kids when they need it. (And I have a son with MS who can no longer work, has been getting minimal disability and I'd been helping out. I hate thinking what this is going to do to him and I won't be able to help any more)
> 
> We did everything these assholes are saying people should do. Just to watch them take it all away.


I don't even know what to say to this.

Is the Senate supposed to vote on this, or is it one of those things that only needs House approval? How do these people live with themselves?


----------



## jbandsma

Poor Purl said:


> I don't even know what to say to this.
> 
> Is the Senate supposed to vote on this, or is it one of those things that only needs House approval? How do these people live with themselves?


Even if the senate had to vote on it, it wouldn't change anything. They now control that, too.

I'm wondering if they're going to revive Poppy Bush's proposal (loudly shouted down at the time he made it) that resident aliens...that's LEGAL immigrants...not be permitted to receive SS no matter how long they'd been working in this country and paying taxes. And no, they wouldn't be exempt from continuing to PAY into the account, only exempt from getting anything back.


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> Even if the senate had to vote on it, it wouldn't change anything. They now control that, too.
> 
> I'm wondering if they're going to revive Poppy Bush's proposal (loudly shouted down at the time he made it) that resident aliens...that's LEGAL immigrants...not be permitted to receive SS no matter how long they'd been working in this country and paying taxes. And no, they wouldn't be exempt from continuing to PAY into the account, only exempt from getting anything back.


This is an outrage. Where are you hearing this?


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> This is an outrage. Where are you hearing this?


Bush's idea (the elder, not the shrub) was in his first year in office. About the same time he said that he didn't think atheists should be considered citizens. We sweated out the proposal for the social security due to the fact that my husband happens to be one of those LEGAL immigrants. It never came to any more than just a proposal...THEN.

I hate to think what will happen if it comes up again now.


----------



## damemary

Rah! Rah! Proof positive.



DGreen said:


> Ran across this on Daily Kos and it's very interesting.
> 
> Remember how Republicans used to mock California as a failed state? Greece on the Pacific? Well, a few years ago, voters kicked Republicans out of power and changed the absurd supermajority budget requirements that had given minority conservatives veto power over state government.
> 
> The result? With voter approval, the state raised taxes on the highest income earners to fund education. It started to reinvest in water and transportation infrastructure and rebuild the social safety net. It completed the implementation of a robust cap-and-trade program to restrict carbon emissions and fund sustainability projects. And the result? A rapidly growing economy and surging tax revenue.
> 
> The results are in: one way of governing works. The other doesn't.
> 
> Raise taxes on the most wealthy. It has worked historically and it will work now.


----------



## damemary

This is a tragedy. How do they expect anyone to plan for their future? Oh yeah. They don't have to worry about their retirement. I don't hear anyone in Congress feel the pain.



jbandsma said:


> No, I'm talking about the fact that our pension plan was covered by federal insurance, like the banks are, and that was just killed by our new "conservative" government.
> 
> And we have received notice that we will not receive any more checks after the one at the first of Feb. because of it.
> 
> It's a good thing my husband didn't wait to take his pension when he was eligible for the full thing...next Dec. He had to start taking a reduced amount at 55 because his job went away and he couldn't find work for almost 2 years.
> 
> He worked for 30 years, taking less in take home pay in order to have a healthy pension...and without what we got when he had no work we'd have lost everything. Now we won't even have that. He's working 60 hours a week NOW (except for the weeks he has an extra 40 from home) and it looks like he'll have to die at the job.
> 
> Because of that, we'll lose 20% of the SS...which won't be coming for some time yet.


----------



## damemary

One of the usual tricks. If you hear of any petitions, PM me & I'll sign.



jbandsma said:


> A 'hidden' part of that one.


----------



## damemary

Let me know if there's anything to be done to interrupt.



DGreen said:


> My stomach just rolled over. I'm feeling sick.
> 
> Not as sick as you.


----------



## damemary

jbandsma said:


> Our pension fund will not pay out any further money without the insurance surety. The pension insurance has been cancelled by the congress (it WAS a federal program like the ones that protect the funds in banks and credit unions...which will probably be next to lose it).


And my question has to be, why not the banks first? Repubs aren't wasting time. I assume White House is aware of the magnitude of the cuts on average Americans. They should be plotting strategy. Can President veto?


----------



## damemary

Are we just going to gripe and accept this?



MarilynKnits said:


> Sounds like a disgusting way to manipulate what they say is balancing the budget, by hurting people like you and not taxing the rich equitably so people holding on by their teeth can have some hope of living comfortably and hoping for a safe retirement.
> 
> Any of our legislators who started out anywhere from poor to middle class have become so jaded by the wealth they amass through political activity they forget what it is to struggle financially. And as time has moved on, only the rich can afford to mount a campaign to run for elected office. They don't have any reference to what it is to be poor, to work hard for so little compensation that you need public assistance, to be one pay check or disability payment away from homelessness or starvation. No foundation for empathy, just the classic arrogance of the rich. A bunch of Marie Antoinettes. And they write laws to maintain their own wealth and have no regard for the rest of us.


----------



## damemary

Keep telling your story. Put a face on this action. Write to your Congress-person. We're behind you.



jbandsma said:


> We didn't have a lot of things most people have so that we could buy a house and visit my husband's family in Holland every 4 or 5 years.
> 
> Didn't have a car until we were married almost 23 years, always walked, rode bikes or took the bus. Baked all my own bread, made menus and stuck to them. Didn't go to movies or other entertainments, nor out to restaurants.
> 
> Simply so that when the day came that we'd have the time and the money to do what we wanted to without worrying about it. Maybe be able to help the kids when they need it. (And I have a son with MS who can no longer work, has been getting minimal disability and I'd been helping out. I hate thinking what this is going to do to him and I won't be able to help any more)
> 
> We did everything these assholes are saying people should do. Just to watch them take it all away.


----------



## damemary

jbandsma said:


> You know, I've still got a good stash of yarn...anybody for sending willy warmers to congress? In size extra, extra small?
> 
> Make the point that they haven't got the cojones to do what's right for ALL the people.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Atta girl! Teeny weinies for Congress.


----------



## jbandsma

damemary said:


> Are we just going to gripe and accept this?


What else is there to do? Vote them out?


----------



## damemary

Lionbrand site has pattern for flat knitted mittens. I will check sizes. CookieQueen has knitted beauties.

Also How about a muff? Quick and easy. Super cute & warm. See Lionbrand.



SQM said:


> Best laugh yet. I am too lazy to post on main. I want to make mittens but the pattern is for adult med. and I want small. Assuming my gauge is perfect, do I go up or down a needle size.


----------



## jbandsma

damemary said:


> Keep telling your story. Put a face on this action. Write to your Congress-person. We're behind you.


I live in the state of Jim DeMint, Lindsey Graham and Tim Scott.

Write to them and you get a form letter saying "don't worry your little head about stuff like that, we know what's best for you"


----------



## DGreen

damemary said:


> And my question has to be, why not the banks first? Repubs aren't wasting time. I assume White House is aware of the magnitude of the cuts on average Americans. They should be plotting strategy. Can President veto?


This was slipped into the funding bill that was "must pass." Look for more of the same as a way to circumvent the veto.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> I live in the state of Jim DeMint, Lindsey Graham and Tim Scott.
> 
> Write to them and you get a form letter saying "don't worry your little head about stuff like that, we know what's best for you"


John McCain sends similar "responses."


----------



## damemary

Band together and annoy them. Write to Dem Minority whip and Repub too. It's a lot at stake.



jbandsma said:


> I live in the state of Jim DeMint, Lindsey Graham and Tim Scott.
> 
> Write to them and you get a form letter saying "don't worry your little head about stuff like that, we know what's best for you"


----------



## damemary

Is it so easy to be out-maneuvered? If so everyone who didn't vote last mid-term election should kick themselves in the fanny in the town-square now.



DGreen said:


> This was slipped into the funding bill that was "must pass." Look for more of the same as a way to circumvent the veto.


----------



## DGreen

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/the_2015_federal_budget_removed_pension_protections_for_retirees_20150105

Relative to private pension cuts in budget. Clearly, a business-friendly congress sees retirees as expendable. Instead of protecting benefits, they protect businesses - the ones making record profits.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/pension-benefit-guaranty-corp-running-34-billion-deficit/2012/11/16/7c1a54da-303a-11e2-9f50-0308e1e75445_story.html.
> 
> Relative to private pension cuts in budget. Clearly, a business-friendly congress sees retirees as expendable. Instead of protecting benefits, they protect businesses - the ones making record profits.


I guess they decided to keep people from seeing it. No longer there.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> I guess they decided to keep people from seeing it. No longer there.


I changed the link to a better one. Please try again.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> I changed the link to a better one. Please try again.


I did. Didn't realize that it was also another attempt to not only break unions but to keep people from forming or joining them.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> I did. Didn't realize that it was also another attempt to not only break unions but to keep people from forming or joining them.


I've been stomping around the house this morning, trying to figure out what, if anything, can be done to reverse this travesty. It doesn't help to chew over the fact that we progressives failed to speak out in the recent election, nor does it help to worry about what the next attack against retirees will be. They are sure to happen and we are already seeing plans for the extreme right to further harm citizens in favor of the 1%. Legislative action is needed and we as citizens need to scream bloody murder - and not just to each other. Our legislators need to hear the message loud and clear that this is unacceptable.

This makes me even more motivated to GET MONEY OUT OF POLITICS by any means possible.


----------



## cookiequeen

damemary said:


> One of the usual tricks. If you hear of any petitions, PM me & I'll sign.


I don't have time right now, but change.org has a page on which a person can submit ideas for petitions. I have signed many petitions that have come from this organization into my email. I think it might be a good thing to try. I don't know if anyone has suggested this because I haven't caught up with reading.


----------



## cookiequeen

I'm


DGreen said:


> I've been stomping around the house this morning, trying to figure out what, if anything, can be done to reverse this travesty. It doesn't help to chew over the fact that we progressives failed to speak out in the recent election, nor does it help to worry about what the next attack against retirees will be. They are sure to happen and we are already seeing plans for the extreme right to further harm citizens in favor of the 1%. Legislative action is needed and we as citizens need to scream bloody murder - and not just to each other. Our legislators need to hear the message loud and clear that this is unacceptable.
> 
> This makes me even more motivated to GET MONEY OUT OF POLITICS by any means possible.


Stomp away, and throw in a few for me, too! My sister and my father, who are in their graves, would stomp with us. If they came back today, they wouldn't believe what has happened to government (and idiotic voters) in this country!


----------



## DGreen

cookiequeen said:


> I don't have time right now, but change.org has a page on which a person can submit ideas for petitions. I have signed many petitions that have come from this organization into my email. I think it might be a good thing to try. I don't know if anyone has suggested this because I haven't caught up with reading.


Good idea, thank you. Awareness is a key.


----------



## MarilynKnits

damemary said:


> One of the usual tricks. If you hear of any petitions, PM me & I'll sign.


Ditto me to sign a petition. My grandparents came here to escape government oppression. My grandfather, who was involved in creating the CIO and Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America, must be rolling over in his grave over this new form of oppression.


----------



## MarilynKnits

jbandsma said:


> I guess they decided to keep people from seeing it. No longer there.


Remember that the newspapers and television stations which broadcast the news are also big business and depend heavily on revenue from advertisers, big conglomerates that run department stores, for example. Can we really expect to learn all the news and have muckraking journalists making waves?


----------



## jbandsma

Well, the week just gets better. Had to buy 2 new tires for a hybrid...the ones that use a gas for inflation instead of air.

Large screws and a couple nails hammered into the sidewalls.


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> Even if the senate had to vote on it, it wouldn't change anything. They now control that, too.
> 
> I'm wondering if they're going to revive Poppy Bush's proposal (loudly shouted down at the time he made it) that resident aliens...that's LEGAL immigrants...not be permitted to receive SS no matter how long they'd been working in this country and paying taxes. And no, they wouldn't be exempt from continuing to PAY into the account, only exempt from getting anything back.


I don't even remember that. All I recall about Poppy Bush is his thousand points of light and not knowing what a supermarket scanner was. But we've always taken advantage of immigrants, and even the illegal ones pay into the SS system.

The Senate still seems to have some sane members, so they probably won't go as far as the House, but it's really unpredictable what these guys will do when they're feeling their oats.

Is there no end to the horrible things they can dream up?


----------



## DGreen

Poor Purl said:


> Is there no end to the horrible things they can dream up?


Apparently not.


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> Well, the week just gets better. Had to buy 2 new tires for a hybrid...the ones that use a gas for inflation instead of air.
> 
> Large screws and a couple nails hammered into the sidewalls.


Sounds like vandalism.


----------



## SQM

Poor Purl said:


> I don't even remember that. All I recall about Poppy Bush is his thousand points of light and not knowing what a supermarket scanner was. But we've always taken advantage of immigrants, and even the illegal ones pay into the SS system.
> 
> The Senate still seems to have some sane members, so they probably won't go as far as the House, but it's really unpredictable what these guys will do when they're feeling their oats.
> 
> Is there no end to the horrible things they can dream up?


All I recall about Bush Pere is his throwing up that went global. Is there really anything else to remember him for?


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> No, I'm talking about the fact that our pension plan was covered by federal insurance, like the banks are, and that was just killed by our new "conservative" government.
> 
> And we have received notice that we will not receive any more checks after the one at the first of Feb. because of it.
> 
> It's a good thing my husband didn't wait to take his pension when he was eligible for the full thing...next Dec. He had to start taking a reduced amount at 55 because his job went away and he couldn't find work for almost 2 years.
> 
> He worked for 30 years, taking less in take home pay in order to have a healthy pension...and without what we got when he had no work we'd have lost everything. Now we won't even have that. He's working 60 hours a week NOW (except for the weeks he has an extra 40 from home) and it looks like he'll have to die at the job.
> 
> Because of that, we'll lose 20% of the SS...which won't be coming for some time yet.


That really sucks. Of course the CEO'S of this company won't be hurting at all. Your pension money is probably going in their pockets. When I retired, I started drawing SS under my husbands name. They told me then that at a later date I could start drawing under mine and it would be more money. The last chance I have to switch to mine is when I turn 70, so I decided to wait till I am 70 to get the most money. I probably should check into that too before those rats change the rules there also.


----------



## NJG

DGreen said:


> Which bill?? The one about reallocation to cover disability benefits?


And that isn't even a bill. That was just a rules change by house republicans.


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> All I recall about Bush Pere is his throwing up that went global. Is there really anything else to remember him for?


The war in Iraq that his son didn't think he did properly and determined to "finish" for him...or to show him up.

And maybe he should be remembered for having drunks for sons who thought it was funny to shoot each other with bb guns, stuff live firecrackers in frogs' mouths to watch them blow up and other "boys will be boys" pranks.


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> Even if the senate had to vote on it, it wouldn't change anything. They now control that, too.
> 
> I'm wondering if they're going to revive Poppy Bush's proposal (loudly shouted down at the time he made it) that resident aliens...that's LEGAL immigrants...not be permitted to receive SS no matter how long they'd been working in this country and paying taxes. And no, they wouldn't be exempt from continuing to PAY into the account, only exempt from getting anything back.


At this point, if you pay in you can draw on it later, but don't hold your breath. They are going after the disabled now, so who knows who is nest. Everyone must send emails to congress. I have been doing it to Grassley for a long time. It doesn't help, but I keep telling him anyway how disappointed I am in him and call him out on every lie I hear him tell. That is a lot of emails. I also put one in the local paper. I think that one is maybe more important so that thee people in your area know what is going on and how it is affecting real people. Name the names of those in congress who voted to do this and ask who is next to loose their pension.


----------



## jbandsma

NJG said:


> At this point, if you pay in you can draw on it later, but don't hold your breath. They are going after the disabled now, so who knows who is nest. Everyone must send emails to congress. I have been doing it to Grassley for a long time. It doesn't help, but I keep telling him anyway how disappointed I am in him and call him out on every lie I hear him tell. That is a lot of emails. I also put one in the local paper. I think that one is maybe more important so that thee people in your area know what is going on and how it is affecting real people. Name the names of those in congress who voted to do this and ask who is next to loose their pension.


We don't have a newspaper that will print "liberal sounding" letters any more. And some of the ones from moderate conservatives get a lot of horrible flack.

Oh, and I know very well the problems they're giving the disabled...I have a son with MS. Unable to work, gets the minimum disability, took him almost 3 years to get that, has problems getting them to approve his medications. They've denied him a wheelchair even though his doctor wants him in one as he can no longer feel his feet or lower legs and is in great danger of falling.


----------



## NJG

damemary said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Atta girl! Teeny weinies for Congress.


I just read that until 08 the senators did not allow women in the senate pool because they liked to swim naked with all their willies dangling in the water. I think it was Kay Hutchins that got it stopped. Just the thought of some of those old coots naked turns my stomach.


----------



## Poor Purl

NJG said:


> I just read that until 08 the senators did not allow women in the senate pool because they liked to swim naked with all their willies dangling in the water. I think it was Kay Hutchins that got it stopped. Just the thought of some of those old coots naked turns my stomach.


I hope I can get that picture out of my brain sometime soon. Thanks a lot!


----------



## jbandsma

Poor Purl said:


> I hope I can get that picture out of my brain sometime soon. Thanks a lot!


Here's one for you...visualize Strom Thurmond.


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> Here's one for you...visualize Strom Thurmond.


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> I live in the state of Jim DeMint, Lindsey Graham and Tim Scott.
> 
> Write to them and you get a form letter saying "don't worry your little head about stuff like that, we know what's best for you"


That would really piss me off. Charlie always answers my emails although sometimes I can not stand to even read them, as he always blames Obama for everything. It is always "the administration" did this or that and that caused the problem. I have found out though that he does not like to be called a racist. I do it anyway and tell him there is no other explanation for his actions and words.
You have to write anyway though. I have never met Charlie, but he knows me by name, I am sure of it.


----------



## NJG

DGreen said:


> This was slipped into the funding bill that was "must pass." Look for more of the same as a way to circumvent the veto.


I also just read that the house has 36 pages of "new rules" they just all agreed to and the democrats all voted no, which of course does no good.


----------



## NJG

damemary said:


> Band together and annoy them. Write to Dem Minority whip and Repub too. It's a lot at stake.


Most of the time you can't write to someone other than your district rep. I have written to Boehner though and I know that at one point I wrote to McCain and he answered.


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> I did. Didn't realize that it was also another attempt to not only break unions but to keep people from forming or joining them.


It also allows the big banks to play with our money that was part of the federally insured money.


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> Most of the time you can't write to someone other than your district rep. I have written to Boehner though and I know that at one point I wrote to McCain and he answered.


But you CAN write to them all. I've been ignored by them all. Doesn't stop me.


----------



## NJG

cookiequeen said:


> I'm
> 
> Stomp away, and throw in a few for me, too! My sister and my father, who are in their graves, would stomp with us. If they came back today, they wouldn't believe what has happened to government (and idiotic voters) in this country!


It is those same voters again who vote against their own interests. I don't get it. How can you be so uninformed that you would do that.


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> It is those same voter again who vote against their own interests. I don't get it. How can you so uninformed that you would do that.


What do you expect when they get their "information" from Faux News?


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> We don't have a newspaper that will print "liberal sounding" letters any more. And some of the ones from moderate conservatives get a lot of horrible flack.
> 
> Oh, and I know very well the problems they're giving the disabled...I have a son with MS. Unable to work, gets the minimum disability, took him almost 3 years to get that, has problems getting them to approve his medications. They've denied him a wheelchair even though his doctor wants him in one as he can no longer feel his feet or lower legs and is in great danger of falling.


I know anyone getting disability takes a long time. I know of a barber who had a stroke, could only use one hand and was turned down, and had to get a lawyer. Crazy.


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> Here's one for you...visualize Strom Thurmond.


NO, NO, NO, I don't want to.


----------



## NJG

DGreen said:


> But you CAN write to them all. I've been ignored by them all. Doesn't stop me.


When you go to enter your info and put your zip code in, it will tell you you are not able to write so and so because you do not live in his district.


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> The war in Iraq that his son didn't think he did properly and determined to "finish" for him...or to show him up.
> 
> And maybe he should be remembered for having drunks for sons who thought it was funny to shoot each other with bb guns, stuff live firecrackers in frogs' mouths to watch them blow up and other "boys will be boys" pranks.


Mais oui! Of course that first attempt at war with Iraq should have leapt right into my mind with le fils' attempt to finish it. I am speaking my ten words of French today because they had a million plus rally in Paris to protest the recent killings and to show solidarity with les Juifs. Finally after 15 years of sporting season on Les Juifs.


----------



## MarilynKnits

NJG said:


> I also just read that the house has 36 pages of "new rules" they just all agreed to and the democrats all voted no, which of course does no good.


And that is just fine, right? But when the President does an executive order he has brought the devil down on us.


----------



## SQM

NJG said:


> I just read that until 08 the senators did not allow women in the senate pool because they liked to swim naked with all their willies dangling in the water. I think it was Kay Hutchins that got it stopped. Just the thought of some of those old coots naked turns my stomach.


Yuck and double yuck. I like your new avatar. More spicy like you are, even tho I always pictured you like the oldest girl.


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> Here's one for you...visualize Strom Thurmond.


Do I have to Ma? I guess I can visualize Strom Thurmond but must I visualize Strom Thurmond's?


----------



## MarilynKnits

SQM said:


> Do I have to Ma? I guess I can visualize Strom Thurmond but must I visualize Strom Thurmond's?


Eww!


----------



## SQM

Thurmond has been dead for awhile so there is probably nothing to visualize now.


----------



## NJG

MarilynKnits said:


> And that is just fine, right? But when the President does an executive order he has brought the devil down on us.


Very good point. I will borrow that if you don't mind for my next email to my republican rep and senators.


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> Thurmond has been dead for awhile so there is probably nothing to visualize now.


Yeah but he was alive before they finally started letting women in the pool.


----------



## SQM

Should the US have sent someone over to France this weekend? Seems like the major countries sent impt. dignitaries.


----------



## MarilynKnits

NJG said:


> Very good point. I will borrow that if you don't mind for my next email to my republican rep and senators.


Feel free to use any turns of phrase you like from me.


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> When you go to enter your info and put your zip code in, it will tell you you are not able to write so and so because you do not live in his district.


You may have to look up his Washington office address and send a letter by snail mail.


----------



## NJG

SQM said:


> Should the US have sent someone over to France this weekend? Seems like the major countries sent impt. dignitaries.


Eric Holder is going, but that is according to Breitbart, so take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## Camacho

SQM said:


> Should the US have sent someone over to France this weekend? Seems like the major countries sent impt. dignitaries.


Yes, of course. That's the only respectful thing to do. Aren't we supposed to comfort those who mourn? Or visit them?
Oh well.


----------



## SQM

NJG said:


> Eric Holder is going, but that is according to Breitbart, so take it with a grain of salt.


Too late as it is over. Feeble excuses are being given on CNN. Why would the US not be there? Where was Biden? This is his job.


----------



## DGreen

SQM said:


> Too late as it is over. Feeble excuses are being given on CNN. Why would the US not be there? Where was Biden? This is his job.


I, too, am sorely disappointed that the US did not do the right thing. I can't imagine what Obama was thinking! France is our oldest ally.


----------



## BrattyPatty

After perusing this for a while I think that Biden and Obama made the right choice in staying here. I think the situation made it too dangerous for either one of them. The terrorists hate the United States more than the cartoon. They would have been sitting ducks. Eric Holder went, right?

JMHO


----------



## SQM

BrattyPatty said:


> After perusing this for a while I think that Biden and Obama made the right choice in staying here. I think the situation made it too dangerous for either one of them. The terrorists hate the United States more than the cartoon. They would have been sitting ducks. Eric Holder went, right?
> 
> JMHO


Holder went to another meeting that was scheduled after the demo. Kerry should have gone. He is expendable in my opinion. Hi Brat.


----------



## BrattyPatty

SQM said:


> Holder went to another meeting that was scheduled after the demo. Kerry should have gone. He is expendable in my opinion. Hi Brat.


Hi SQ. If Obama did go, how many would be complaining that he made the trip? I can name one  .
Was Kerry even available to go?


----------



## SQM

BrattyPatty said:


> Hi SQ. If Obama did go, how many would be complaining that he made the trip? I can name one  .
> Was Kerry even available to go?


The heads of England, Germany, etc were available - what does Kerry do anyway?


----------



## BrattyPatty

SQM said:


> The heads of England, Germany, etc were available - what does Kerry do anyway?


He's Secretary of State. His job is foreign affairs.......
Think of this. If something were to happen to President Obama or VP Biden, John Boehnner would be president. I get hives just thinking about that!


----------



## SQM

BrattyPatty said:


> He's Secretary of State. His job is foreign affairs.......


Nu? Why wasn't he sent?


----------



## BrattyPatty

He was in India. I added to my previous post.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> I, too, am sorely disappointed that the US did not do the right thing. I can't imagine what Obama was thinking! France is our oldest ally.


I'm wondering if it really matters. After all, no matter what he did, it would be wrong.

But even more than that, I think the new congress would have taken advantage of him not being here to get even worse on the citizens of this country.


----------



## BrattyPatty

jbandsma said:


> I'm wondering if it really matters. After all, no matter what he did, it would be wrong.
> 
> But even more than that, I think the new congress would have taken advantage of him not being here to get even worse on the citizens of this country.


That too!!


----------



## NJG

BrattyPatty said:


> Hi SQ. If Obama did go, how many would be complaining that he made the trip? I can name one  .
> Was Kerry even available to go?


No Kerry was not available, was someplace else, but forgot where.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

NJG, I've not read back posts, but did you know that Obama is going to be in Cedar Falls on Wednesday? That's only about an hour from you??? Maybe you could get a glimpse?


----------



## NJG

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> NJG, I've not read back posts, but did you know that Obama is going to be in Cedar Falls on Wednesday? That's only about an hour from you??? Maybe you could get a glimpse?


Thanks for the info. Yes I had heard that, but it always requires too much walking for me as I have back issues that don't allow that. Looks like it should be a good day weather wise though. Up to 23 and partly cloudy. Getting away from all this below 0 stuff we have been having.


----------



## BrattyPatty

NJG said:


> Thanks for the info. Yes I had heard that, but it always requires too much walking for me as I have back issues that don't allow that. Looks like it should be a good day weather wise though. Up to 23 and partly cloudy. Getting away from all this below 0 stuff we have been having.


Can you send some of that warmth up this way??


----------



## NJG

BrattyPatty said:


> Can you send some of that warmth up this way??


I would share if I could. Are you still in that sub zero stuff. It was miserable here about a week. Glad I got to stay in.


----------



## Poor Purl

BrattyPatty said:


> Can you send some of that warmth up this way??


Would you like some snow and sleet instead? I'm trying to get rid of it.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska

NJG said:


> Thanks for the info. Yes I had heard that, but it always requires too much walking for me as I have back issues that don't allow that. Looks like it should be a good day weather wise though. Up to 23 and partly cloudy. Getting away from all this below 0 stuff we have been having.


Oh I'm sorry! As soon as I heard it I thought of you, because you're so close by.


----------



## BrattyPatty

Poor Purl said:


> Would you like some snow and sleet instead? I'm trying to get rid of it.


No thank you! That should be here by Tuesday. We did make it to 10 above today. It must be the January "thaw."


----------



## Poor Purl

BrattyPatty said:


> No thank you! That should be here by Tuesday. We did make it to 10 above today. It must be the January "thaw."


Kind of like "Indian Summer"?


----------



## damemary

How about a new union movement?



DGreen said:


> I've been stomping around the house this morning, trying to figure out what, if anything, can be done to reverse this travesty. It doesn't help to chew over the fact that we progressives failed to speak out in the recent election, nor does it help to worry about what the next attack against retirees will be. They are sure to happen and we are already seeing plans for the extreme right to further harm citizens in favor of the 1%. Legislative action is needed and we as citizens need to scream bloody murder - and not just to each other. Our legislators need to hear the message loud and clear that this is unacceptable.
> 
> This makes me even more motivated to GET MONEY OUT OF POLITICS by any means possible.


----------



## damemary

Do you think you were targeted or was it a random occurrence?



jbandsma said:


> Well, the week just gets better. Had to buy 2 new tires for a hybrid...the ones that use a gas for inflation instead of air.
> 
> Large screws and a couple nails hammered into the sidewalls.


----------



## damemary

McCain's staff always answers but he thoroughly ignores all you say.



NJG said:


> Most of the time you can't write to someone other than your district rep. I have written to Boehner though and I know that at one point I wrote to McCain and he answered.


----------



## damemary

SQM said:


> Do I have to Ma? I guess I can visualize Strom Thurmond but must I visualize Strom Thurmond's?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Good punctuation.


----------



## damemary

Dare I say there was probably never anything substantial there?



SQM said:


> Thurmond has been dead for awhile so there is probably nothing to visualize now.


----------



## jbandsma

damemary said:


> Do you think you were targeted or was it a random occurrence?


Definitely targeted. Pretty sure it's the same person who's been giving me problems for some time now.


----------



## damemary

Grrrr.



jbandsma said:


> Definitely targeted. Pretty sure it's the same person who's been giving me problems for some time now.


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> Definitely targeted. Pretty sure it's the same person who's been giving me problems for some time now.


Where is your knife-thrower when you need him? Unless he is the perp.


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> Where is your knife-thrower when you need him? Unless he is the perp.


Would be hard to do...he died in the late 80s.


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> Would be hard to do...he died in the late 80s.


Maybe not so hard. I can conduct a seance and get Knife-Thrower to materialize for the bad guys in your life.


----------



## DGreen

SQM said:


> Maybe not so hard. I can conduct a seance and get Knife-Thrower to materialize for the bad guys in your life.


Can you include the congresspeople who use "must pass" legislation to hurt people like jbandsma? It would be a public service to so many.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> Can you include the congresspeople who use "must pass" legislation to hurt people like jbandsma? It would be a public service to so many.


It has been said that English witches caused the Spanish Armada not to reach England in any kind of shape to cause the planned mayhem. And that English witches were responsible for the evacuation at Dunkirk going as well as it did.

Since voting doesn't seem to do any good, maybe we should try some voodoo


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> It has been said that English witches caused the Spanish Armada not to reach England in any kind of shape to cause the planned mayhem. And that English witches were responsible for the evacuation at Dunkirk going as well as it did.
> 
> Since voting doesn't seem to do any good, maybe we should try some voodoo


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## MarilynKnits

jbandsma said:


> It has been said that English witches caused the Spanish Armada not to reach England in any kind of shape to cause the planned mayhem. And that English witches were responsible for the evacuation at Dunkirk going as well as it did.
> 
> Since voting doesn't seem to do any good, maybe we should try some voodoo


We could knit Poppets in the images of the bad guys, fill them with sawdust, and stick blocking pins in them. Any other ideas?


----------



## jbandsma

MarilynKnits said:


> We could knit Poppets in the images of the bad guys, fill them with sawdust, and stick blocking pins in them. Any other ideas?


Raid the congressional barber shop for hair samples? Stuff the doll with hair from all of them and then we'd only need one doll and a LOT of pins.


----------



## MarilynKnits

jbandsma said:


> Raid the congressional barber shop for hair samples? Stuff the doll with hair from all of them and then we'd only need one doll and a LOT of pins.


And if they are as dismissive of "the serving class" as of the general populace, I am sure the barbers would save the sweepings for us.


----------



## NJG

Changing the subject here for a little while, but just some food for thought.


Five true things A wise person once said. 

1. We all love to spend money buying new clothes, but we never realize that the best moments in life are enjoyed without clothes. 

2. Having a cold drink on a hot day with a few friends is nice, but having a hot friend on a cold night after a few drinks - PRICELESS. 

3. Breaking News: Condoms don't guarantee safe sex anymore. A friend of mine was wearing one when he was shot dead by the woman's husband. 

4. Arguing over a girl's bust size is like choosing between Molson, Heineken, Carlsberg, & Budweiser. Men may state their preferences, but will grab whatever is available. 

AND 

5. I haven't verified this on Snopes, but it sounds legit 

A recent study found that women who carry a little extra weight live longer than the men who mention it..


----------



## MarilynKnits

NJG said:


> Changing the subject here for a little while, but just some food for thought.
> 
> Five true things A wise person once said.
> 
> 1. We all love to spend money buying new clothes, but we never realize that the best moments in life are enjoyed without clothes.
> 
> 2. Having a cold drink on a hot day with a few friends is nice, but having a hot friend on a cold night after a few drinks - PRICELESS.
> 
> 3. Breaking News: Condoms don't guarantee safe sex anymore. A friend of mine was wearing one when he was shot dead by the woman's husband.
> 
> 4. Arguing over a girl's bust size is like choosing between Molson, Heineken, Carlsberg, & Budweiser. Men may state their preferences, but will grab whatever is available.
> 
> AND
> 
> 5. I haven't verified this on Snopes, but it sounds legit
> 
> A recent study found that women who carry a little extra weight live longer than the men who mention it..


Thanks for a good laugh to close out the day.


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> Changing the subject here for a little while, but just some food for thought.
> 
> Five true things A wise person once said.
> 
> 1. We all love to spend money buying new clothes, but we never realize that the best moments in life are enjoyed without clothes.
> 
> 2. Having a cold drink on a hot day with a few friends is nice, but having a hot friend on a cold night after a few drinks - PRICELESS.
> 
> 3. Breaking News: Condoms don't guarantee safe sex anymore. A friend of mine was wearing one when he was shot dead by the woman's husband.
> 
> 4. Arguing over a girl's bust size is like choosing between Molson, Heineken, Carlsberg, & Budweiser. Men may state their preferences, but will grab whatever is available.
> 
> AND
> 
> 5. I haven't verified this on Snopes, but it sounds legit
> 
> A recent study found that women who carry a little extra weight live longer than the men who mention it..


Thanks! I needed a laugh!


----------



## damemary

Congress, here we come.



MarilynKnits said:


> We could knit Poppets in the images of the bad guys, fill them with sawdust, and stick blocking pins in them. Any other ideas?


----------



## damemary

So efficient.



jbandsma said:


> Raid the congressional barber shop for hair samples? Stuff the doll with hair from all of them and then we'd only need one doll and a LOT of pins.


----------



## jbandsma

My nephew's wife gave birth at 6am this morning to the triplets.

Natalie, Vivian and Grace. Grace is on ventilator, the other 2 just on cpaps. So far everyone is stable and doing well.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> My nephew's wife gave birth at 6am this morning to the triplets.
> 
> Natalie, Vivian and Grace. Grace is on ventilator, the other 2 just on cpaps. So far everyone is stable and doing well.


Wonderful! Glad they're all stable.

Weights?


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> Wonderful! Glad they're all stable.
> 
> Weights?


Natalie, 3 lbs. 6 oz; Vivian, 3 lbs. 2 oz; and Grace, 3 lbs 9 oz.


----------



## DGreen

Beautiful! So perfect.


----------



## jbandsma

I wonder why Grace doesn't have a hat. She looks like she's the one that really needs it.


----------



## SQM

Mazel Tov Ma. and many more!


----------



## cookiequeen

jbandsma said:


> I wonder why Grace doesn't have a hat. She looks like she's the one that really needs it.


Beautiful babies!
I think the hat is lying there at the top of Grace's head. At first I thought Auntie didn't finish her knitting in time.


----------



## MarilynKnits

jbandsma said:


> My nephew's wife gave birth at 6am this morning to the triplets.
> 
> Natalie, Vivian and Grace. Grace is on ventilator, the other 2 just on cpaps. So far everyone is stable and doing well.


Mazel Tov! I hope they continue to prosper and enjoy lovely lives.


----------



## Poor Purl

jbandsma said:


> My nephew's wife gave birth at 6am this morning to the triplets.
> 
> Natalie, Vivian and Grace. Grace is on ventilator, the other 2 just on cpaps. So far everyone is stable and doing well.


Congratulations to niece and nephew. What beautiful tiny girls.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter

Congratulations to your nephew and niece on their beautiful baby girls.


----------



## Camacho

Congratulations to you and your nephew and niece!


----------



## jbandsma

I made the mistake of opening a topic titled something like "I'm so mad at Fox News", just to see what the problem was.

Unwatched it (and almost puked) with the post saying how awful it is that Fox has on all these ultra LIBERAL guests.


----------



## Wombatnomore

Congratulations jbandsma! Three precious little babies - nothing sweeter or more endearing. They all look very healthy and I love their names.


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> I made the mistake of opening a topic titled something like "I'm so mad at Fox News", just to see what the problem was.
> 
> Unwatched it (and almost puked) with the post saying how awful it is that Fox has on all these ultra LIBERAL guests.


It is lies like this that should make her mad, but this one she probably believed and loved.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/12/1357178/--FoxNewsFacts-trending-after-expert-says-major-British-city-entirely-Muslim?detail=email


----------



## damemary

Congratulations to all. Best wishes for the whole family and the miracle babies.



jbandsma said:


> My nephew's wife gave birth at 6am this morning to the triplets.
> 
> Natalie, Vivian and Grace. Grace is on ventilator, the other 2 just on cpaps. So far everyone is stable and doing well.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary

They're so tiny and sweet. Keep sharing pictures.



jbandsma said:


> Natalie, 3 lbs. 6 oz; Vivian, 3 lbs. 2 oz; and Grace, 3 lbs 9 oz.


----------



## damemary

She demands a purple one. You know little girls.



jbandsma said:


> I wonder why Grace doesn't have a hat. She looks like she's the one that really needs it.


----------



## damemary

I'm nauseous myself now.



jbandsma said:


> I made the mistake of opening a topic titled something like "I'm so mad at Fox News", just to see what the problem was.
> 
> Unwatched it (and almost puked) with the post saying how awful it is that Fox has on all these ultra LIBERAL guests.


----------



## jbandsma

damemary said:


> She demands a purple one. You know little girls.


Well, there's 3 purple ones in that dozen I knitted for them.


----------



## MarilynKnits

jbandsma said:


> I made the mistake of opening a topic titled something like "I'm so mad at Fox News", just to see what the problem was.
> 
> Unwatched it (and almost puked) with the post saying how awful it is that Fox has on all these ultra LIBERAL guests.


Shows how ignorant some of those folks are. The guests are as far from LIBERAL as a hyena is from a bunny!


----------



## Poor Purl

NJG said:


> It is lies like this that should make her mad, but this one she probably believed and loved.
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/12/1357178/--FoxNewsFacts-trending-after-expert-says-major-British-city-entirely-Muslim?detail=email


This is hilarious. What clods!


----------



## SQM

Poor Purl said:


> This is hilarious. What clods!


But it sells sponsored products.


----------



## MarilynKnits

NJG said:


> It is lies like this that should make her mad, but this one she probably believed and loved.
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/12/1357178/--FoxNewsFacts-trending-after-expert-says-major-British-city-entirely-Muslim?detail=email


Loved this. Especially the Daleks and the burkas on the jam jars. Vive le Maggie!


----------



## MindyT

SQM said:


> Should the US have sent someone over to France this weekend? Seems like the major countries sent impt. dignitaries.


Eric Holder was there already and joined as well as the American Ambassador.


----------



## SQM

MindyT said:


> Eric Holder was there already and joined as well as the American Ambassador.


Holder was there and did not attend. The ambassador was considered too low status compared to our allies sending heads of state. Sorry. Obama bleeped this one and it was very telling.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

jbandsma said:


> My nephew's wife gave birth at 6am this morning to the triplets.
> 
> Natalie, Vivian and Grace. Grace is on ventilator, the other 2 just on cpaps. So far everyone is stable and doing well.


I hope they continue to do well and that they thrive.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

jbandsma said:


> Natalie, 3 lbs. 6 oz; Vivian, 3 lbs. 2 oz; and Grace, 3 lbs 9 oz.


They're beautiful!! Are they very premature?


----------



## BrattyPatty

Congratulations Jbandsma! The babies are beautiful!


----------



## jbandsma

MaidInBedlam said:


> They're beautiful!! Are they very premature?


Almost 3 months. But she was able to carry them a good bit longer than expected. The doctors actually thought they might have to deliver them before christmas.

Luckily that wasn't the case.

But oh I can't imagine how she must have felt with 3 of them in there kicking her.


----------



## MaidInBedlam

jbandsma said:


> Almost 3 months. But she was able to carry them a good bit longer than expected. The doctors actually thought they might have to deliver them before christmas.
> 
> Luckily that wasn't the case.
> 
> But oh I can't imagine how she must have felt with 3 of them in there kicking her.


I can't imagine it, either. They all seem to be pretty large for being so premature. Thank goodness they made it that extra 19 days (I hope that count is correct.) Every extra day is so important.


----------



## jbandsma

MaidInBedlam said:


> I can't imagine it, either. They all seem to be pretty large for being so premature. Thank goodness they made it that extra 19 days (I hope that count is correct.) Every extra day is so important.


Yes, I'm surprised at their size, too. But it's a great thing that they did get to that size.


----------



## susanmos2000

jbandsma said:


> My nephew's wife gave birth at 6am this morning to the triplets.
> 
> Natalie, Vivian and Grace. Grace is on ventilator, the other 2 just on cpaps. So far everyone is stable and doing well.


Congrats, jbandsma! I hope your knitting needles are warmed up--they're going to be busy knitting for triplets.


----------



## jbandsma

susanmos2000 said:


> Congrats, jbandsma! I hope your knitting needles are warmed up--they're going to be busy knitting for triplets.


Been there, done that, already sent.


----------



## tamarque

MarilynKnits said:


> Shows how ignorant some of those folks are. The guests are as far from LIBERAL as a hyena is from a bunny!


There is a rerun of national polls showing that Fox News watchers are the most misinformed people in the country. Of course CNN didn't do great on providing meaningful on formation either, but Fox out did everyone else again.

Anyone see the documentary OutFoxed? It came out a few years ago and was a cross between funny and infuriating.


----------



## tamarque

NJG said:


> I know anyone getting disability takes a long time. I know of a barber who had a stroke, could only use one hand and was turned down, and had to get a lawyer. Crazy.


The common wisdom is that everyone gets turned down for disability and you have to demand another hearing. Think the strategy is wear people out so they don't keep fighting for themselves.


----------



## NJG

SQM said:


> Holder was there and did not attend. The ambassador was considered too low status compared to our allies sending heads of state. Sorry. Obama bleeped this one and it was very telling.


And if it were Bush that didn't attend, the right would have a good reason why he shouldn't have been there. Pretty dangerous place for Obama to be as far as I am concerned.


----------



## NJG

tamarque said:


> The common wisdom is that everyone gets turned down for disability and you have to demand another hearing. Think the strategy is wear people out so they don't keep fighting for themselves.


And it might have something to do with the lack of money in that fund. I always thought it was all in one big pot anyway.


----------



## Poor Purl

MindyT said:


> Eric Holder was there already and joined as well as the American Ambassador.


Not good enough. It should have been at least the Vice President, though in almost all cases it was the head of state. This just looks bad.


----------



## Poor Purl

NJG said:


> And if it were Bush that didn't attend, the right would have a good reason why he shouldn't have been there. Pretty dangerous place for Obama to be as far as I am concerned.


It was even more dangerous for Netanyahu, and he was there, right in front. No excuse.

Do you remember when Bush didn't go to speak at the NAACP? We gave him hell. And this was more important.


----------



## DGreen

Poor Purl said:


> Not good enough. It should have been at least the Vice President, though in almost all cases it was the head of state. This just looks bad.


I agree. Obama should have gone.


----------



## tamarque

NJG said:


> And it might have something to do with the lack of money in that fund. I always thought it was all in one big pot anyway.


Don't know about the pot(s)--actually the one Big Pot is all of our money. However, my personal and collective experience is that the mentality is that anyone who applies for assistance is looked down upon as a sponging moocher. No matter that you paid into a fund for decades while working or paying taxes to have these benefits. I once had a social service worker look down on me and say that she pays taxes. I looked back and told her that every time I bought toilet paper I paid for her salary! She backed off, I am sure with some nasty thoughts about me. It was a time in my life when I had a serious injury, 2 young children and couldn't work so felt forced to apply for social services. No matter that it was temporary. The attitudes were clear. Have seen this all thru my life no matter what the service is that you are applying for. So going for disability immediately puts you into the category of moocher, liar, game player, etc--fill in the blank with whatever nasty adjectives you can think.

Of course the Congress acts as if all tax money should to them and their corporate buddies and military. So there is an attitude from the top to give as little as they can get away with for people services.

I remember when food stamps and medicaid came into being. I can't recall which one, but at the time income qualifications were set to accommodate need. In NYS it was realized that according to those standards of need, 50% of the State was eligible. They quickly raised the bar by about 25% instead of looking at improving jobs and wages. Such are the games they play at the public's expense.


----------



## tamarque

Poor Purl said:


> It was even more dangerous for Netanyahu, and he was there, right in front. No excuse.
> 
> Do you remember when Bush didn't go to speak at the NAACP? We gave him hell. And this was more important.


Why was this more important? There are way more Blacks killed in the US that at Hebdo/ and way more killed in Sweden with a similar attack. The list of killings of people by extremist groups or individuals is very long and you don't have this outpouring. I want to watch and see how these killings are used to suppress freedom of speech and other civil liberties. Or to push for greater austerity and police state security measures. The killings were awful but not anything different than what happens elsewhere. The US murders groups of people with drones and bombs and chemical weaponry all over the world. Where were they marching when the US bombed out a whole wedding party in Afghanistan. I refuse to automatically get sucked into this 3-ring circus without seeing how it is being used.


----------



## NJG

tamarque said:


> Don't know about the pot(s)--actually the one Big Pot is all of our money. However, my personal and collective experience is that the mentality is that anyone who applies for assistance is looked down upon as a sponging moocher. No matter that you paid into a fund for decades while working or paying taxes to have these benefits. I once had a social service worker look down on me and say that she pays taxes. I looked back and told her that every time I bought toilet paper I paid for her salary! She backed off, I am sure with some nasty thoughts about me. It was a time in my life when I had a serious injury, 2 young children and couldn't work so felt forced to apply for social services. No matter that it was temporary. The attitudes were clear. Have seen this all thru my life no matter what the service is that you are applying for. So going for disability immediately puts you into the category of moocher, liar, game player, etc--fill in the blank with whatever nasty adjectives you can think.
> 
> Of course the Congress acts as if all tax money should to them and their corporate buddies and military. So there is an attitude from the top to give as little as they can get away with for people services.
> 
> I remember when food stamps and medicaid came into being. I can't recall which one, but at the time income qualifications were set to accommodate need. In NYS it was realized that according to those standards of need, 50% of the State was eligible. They quickly raised the bar by about 25% instead of looking at improving jobs and wages. Such are the games they play at the public's expense.


The republicans have hated SS and medicare since day one and have always fought against it. They will always do everything they can to fight against it and at the same time do what they can to keep corporations from having to pay pensions.


----------



## SQM

NJG said:


> And if it were Bush that didn't attend, the right would have a good reason why he shouldn't have been there. Pretty dangerous place for Obama to be as far as I am concerned.


More dangerous for Jews to be there. O could have sent Biden. Isn't he a bit expendable?


----------



## tamarque

NJG said:


> The republicans have hated SS and medicare since day one and have always fought against it. They will always do everything they can to fight against it and at the same time do what they can to keep corporations from having to pay pensions.


a propose of my previous comment:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/14/1357706/-VIDEO-Rand-Paul-Over-half-the-people-receiving-disability-benefits-are-gaming-the-system


----------



## BrattyPatty

SQM said:


> More dangerous for Jews to be there. O could have sent Biden. Isn't he a bit expendable?


I would say not. He takes over the presidency if something were to happen to President Obama. 
That would leave SOH John Boehnner a step away from the presidency and the thought of that scares the hell out of me!


----------



## BrattyPatty

NJG said:


> The republicans have hated SS and medicare since day one and have always fought against it. They will always do everything they can to fight against it and at the same time do what they can to keep corporations from having to pay pensions.


I was just reading this article. Good stuff concerning SS disability cuts.

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/01/12/bernie-sanders-exposes-republican-plot-cut-social-security-11-million-disabled-people.html


----------



## SQM

BrattyPatty said:


> I would say not. He takes over the presidency if something were to happen to President Obama.
> That would leave SOH John Boehnner a step away from the presidency and the thought of that scares the hell out of me!


yeah I forget about Boehner. Purposefully.


----------



## BrattyPatty

SQM said:


> yeah I forget about Boehner. Purposefully.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## NJG

tamarque said:


> a propose of my previous comment:
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/14/1357706/-VIDEO-Rand-Paul-Over-half-the-people-receiving-disability-benefits-are-gaming-the-system


Yes, I saw that and of course there is fraud in every program, but half? The thing is, every republican out there now will believe that and pass it on as the truth.


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> Yes, I saw that and of course there is fraud in every program, but half? The thing is, every republican out there now will believe that and pass it on as the truth.


They already believe it. Benefits for the disabled have been cut.


----------



## NJG

BrattyPatty said:


> I was just reading this article. Good stuff concerning SS disability cuts.
> 
> http://www.politicususa.com/2015/01/12/bernie-sanders-exposes-republican-plot-cut-social-security-11-million-disabled-people.html


Yes I read that too. Wonder what the republicans have in store for the final end to this. They are going to use this as leverage to try to get something they want. Will they cave at the last minute for the reallocation or do something to make Obama cave. It will be at election time, but it won't make any difference to republicans on SS. They will vote against themselves. :?: :?: :?: :?:


----------



## BrattyPatty

NJG said:


> Yes I read that too. Wonder what the republicans have in store for the final end to this. They are going to use this as leverage to try to get something they want. Will they cave at the last minute for the reallocation or do something to make Obama cave. It will be at election time, but it won't make any difference to republicans on SS. They will vote against themselves. :?: :?: :?: :?:


Don't they always vote against their better interests? I think it is a secret pledge that they make.


----------



## NJG

DGreen said:


> They already believe it. Benefits for the disabled have been cut.


They haven't cut them yet. They changed the rules so there won't be enough benefits to cover payments by 2016 and they can't reallocate from the retirements fund. That is their leverage, but for what?


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> They haven't cut them yet. They changed the rules so there won't be enough benefits to cover payments by 2016 and they can't reallocate from the retirements fund. That is their leverage, but for what?


Keystone?


----------



## BrattyPatty

NJG said:


> They haven't cut them yet. They changed the rules so there won't be enough benefits to cover payments by 2016 and they can't reallocate from the retirements fund. That is their leverage, but for what?


So they can look worse than they already do? War on the poor and now against the disabled. 
The Christians speak of Satan. If he/she is real he/she is alive and well and running the GOP.


----------



## NJG

BrattyPatty said:


> So they can look worse than they already do? War on the poor and now against the disabled.
> The Christians speak of Satan. If he/she is real he/she is alive and well and running the GOP.


I keep thinking going after SS and medicare isn't something you want to do in an election year, but they do lots of nasty things and don't get blamed for it. Going after voting rights is backed by all the racists in this country, way more than I thought there was, so no matter what they do I guess it is ok.


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> I keep thinking going after SS and medicare isn't something you want to do in an election year, but they do lots of nasty things and don't get blamed for it. Going after voting rights is backed by all the racists in this country, way more than I thought there was, so no matter what they do I guess it is ok.


They know the money will be there to spread whatever lies are necessary to get them back in office in 2016.

Unless we change that. OVERTURN CITIZENS UNITED.


----------



## DGreen

Liberal Ladies:

I have not stopped stomping around with rage over congress' action to allow private pensions to break their promise to their retirees. I have done research on this issue and it appears the only recourse is to hammer the guilty parties (all 435 members of the House) with letters. I also am working on a petition to post on Change.org. Following is the text I am sending to every damned member of the house - by e-mail if possible, by Facebook if necessary. Not sure I can afford the postage for those asshats who won't accept correspondence except for their own district. Please feel free to use if you wish.

_I am deeply troubled by the provision in the 2015 Omnibus Spending bill that allows private pensions to cut retiree benefits; benefits that were promised, earned and paid for by retirees.

Instead of protecting the millions of citizens who did the right thing, took responsibility for their future and sacrificed earnings in good faith, you and the entire congress has betrayed their trust in favor of businesses that have possibly mismanaged pension funds or failed to monitor and protect the investments of their retirees.

This action has served only to widen the income/wealth inequality gap between hard-working citizens and the very wealthy, who at a time when business profits are at an all-time high, are still receiving more and more preferential treatment by you. When millions of retirees must endure cuts to their income, they and our entire economy suffers. Businesses cannot remain healthy or robust when consumers, the real job creators, are no longer able to purchase goods and services. Your action in voting for this travesty runs counter to any rational or reasonable economic policy and hurts vulnerable retirees.

This outrage must be corrected immediately. I ask that you sponsor or support legislation forcing employers to honor their obligations and to pay, out of their profits, the benefits promised to their retirees and that businesses are required to pay premiums to the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp. at a level adequate to provide long-term protection for their employees._


----------



## Poor Purl

tamarque said:


> Why was this more important? There are way more Blacks killed in the US that at Hebdo/ and way more killed in Sweden with a similar attack. The list of killings of people by extremist groups or individuals is very long and you don't have this outpouring. I want to watch and see how these killings are used to suppress freedom of speech and other civil liberties. Or to push for greater austerity and police state security measures. The killings were awful but not anything different than what happens elsewhere. The US murders groups of people with drones and bombs and chemical weaponry all over the world. Where were they marching when the US bombed out a whole wedding party in Afghanistan. I refuse to automatically get sucked into this 3-ring circus without seeing how it is being used.


A funeral, in my mind, is always more important than an annual convention, regardless of the group convening. I doubt that at the time, they were expecting George W. Bush to discuss the numbers of black - or any - people being killed.

Yes, many many people have been killed before, but this just turned out to be the last straw.

(Have you ever noticed that "straw" spelled backwards is "warts"?)


----------



## Poor Purl

tamarque said:


> a propose of my previous comment:
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/14/1357706/-VIDEO-Rand-Paul-Over-half-the-people-receiving-disability-benefits-are-gaming-the-system


Over half the people receiving Senators' salaries are gaming the system.


----------



## tamarque

BrattyPatty said:


> I was just reading this article. Good stuff concerning SS disability cuts.
> 
> http://www.politicususa.com/2015/01/12/bernie-sanders-exposes-republican-plot-cut-social-security-11-million-disabled-people.html


And what this article discusses is called a conspiracy--not a theory!


----------



## tamarque

NJG said:


> Yes, I saw that and of course there is fraud in every program, but half? The thing is, every republican out there now will believe that and pass it on as the truth.


But this is part of the Big Lie--the propaganda; the tactics of mass social manipulation. Remember Romney being caught accusing 47% of the public of being freeloaders (maybe not that exact word). The neo-Con agenda is to promote an Oligarchy. The attitude is downright hostility toward the majority of the public which some people have a hard time taking in.

The GOP/Tea Party are masterful at creating these outrageous 1 liner lies that they massage ad nauseum. But most critical to understand is that underneath the actual words, is the unspoken message which is about 'those' people who are all Blacks and Illegals--you know, those fureners who want to come and destroy this country taking what is 'ours.' And they are dark and dangerous people and we don't want to given them anything for nothing. And they all rape 'our (white) women.'


----------



## BrattyPatty

tamarque said:


> And what this article discusses is called a conspiracy--not a theory!


Of course it's a conspiracy! I like the fact that Bernie Sanders exposed it.


----------



## damemary

I wonder if the French felt they could not provide security if President Obama did attend. The uber-crazies come out and hurt everyone. Just thinking.


----------



## damemary

Well put.



DGreen said:


> Liberal Ladies:
> 
> I have not stopped stomping around with rage over congress' action to allow private pensions to break their promise to their retirees. I have done research on this issue and it appears the only recourse is to hammer the guilty parties (all 435 members of the House) with letters. I also am working on a petition to post on Change.org. Following is the text I am sending to every damned member of the house - by e-mail if possible, by Facebook if necessary. Not sure I can afford the postage for those asshats who won't accept correspondence except for their own district. Please feel free to use if you wish.
> 
> _I am deeply troubled by the provision in the 2015 Omnibus Spending bill that allows private pensions to cut retiree benefits; benefits that were promised, earned and paid for by retirees.
> 
> Instead of protecting the millions of citizens who did the right thing, took responsibility for their future and sacrificed earnings in good faith, you and the entire congress has betrayed their trust in favor of businesses that have possibly mismanaged pension funds or failed to monitor and protect the investments of their retirees.
> 
> This action has served only to widen the income/wealth inequality gap between hard-working citizens and the very wealthy, who at a time when business profits are at an all-time high, are still receiving more and more preferential treatment by you. When millions of retirees must endure cuts to their income, they and our entire economy suffers. Businesses cannot remain healthy or robust when consumers, the real job creators, are no longer able to purchase goods and services. Your action in voting for this travesty runs counter to any rational or reasonable economic policy and hurts vulnerable retirees.
> 
> This outrage must be corrected immediately. I ask that you sponsor or support legislation forcing employers to honor their obligations and to pay, out of their profits, the benefits promised to their retirees and that businesses are required to pay premiums to the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp. at a level adequate to provide long-term protection for their employees._


----------



## SQM

damemary said:


> I wonder if the French felt they could not provide security if President Obama did attend. The uber-crazies come out and hurt everyone. Just thinking.


He made the decision to ignore the march not the french.


----------



## Farmwoman

LOLL #9- Cookie Queen- My heartiest condolences for the suffering and loss you've been thru'. I'm glad to hear you feel like you can survive, and keep on keeping' on! Please take good care of yourself, and remember all the love and good times! HUGS! : )


----------



## NJG

damemary said:


> I wonder if the French felt they could not provide security if President Obama did attend. The uber-crazies come out and hurt everyone. Just thinking.


Besides that, with all the worlds leaders there, who would the terrorists most like to pick off and get credit for killing--President Obama. We do not know what their reasons for not going were, but I guarantee you the right would have blasted the president if he had gone. He can do nothing to please them, he is just automatically wrong.


----------



## SQM

Obama's spokesman said it was a mistake not to have sent someone of "importance". is Ernst his last name? Actually the right would say he is a jihadist sympathizer for not going.


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> Obama's spokesman said it was a mistake not to have sent someone of "importance". is Ernst his last name? Actually the right would say he is a jihadist sympathizer for not going.


And that he was "showing off" if he did.


----------



## BrattyPatty

SQM said:


> Obama's spokesman said it was a mistake not to have sent someone of "importance". is Ernst his last name? Actually the right would say he is a jihadist sympathizer for not going.


Yes, it may have been a mistake, but I think he made the right decision by not going. Holder did not join the march because he was in a meeting.

The far right will say what they will say. It's always negative, so why should this time be different than any other time?
They complain if he takes a vacation, they complain if he is out of the oval office for more than hour.
I agree with jandbsma that they would have complained if he did go.


----------



## NJG

BrattyPatty said:


> Yes, it may have been a mistake, but I think he made the right decision by not going. Holder did not join the march because he was in a meeting.
> 
> The far right will say what they will say. It's always negative, so why should this time be different than any other time?
> They complain if he takes a vacation, they complain if he is out of the oval office for more than hour.
> I agree with jandbsma that they would have complained if he did go.


I think it is disgusting the way republicans slam Obama no matter what he does. We should have a united front behind the president, not try to destroy him.


----------



## BrattyPatty

NJG said:


> I think it is disgusting the way republicans slam Obama no matter what he does. We should have a united front behind the president, not try to destroy him.


Some of them have no idea why they hate him. Maybe because Fox Noise tells them to?


----------



## jbandsma

BrattyPatty said:


> Some of them have no idea why they hate him. Maybe because Fox Noise tells them to?


They know why they hate him. They just don't want to say it out loud.


----------



## jbandsma

News on the pension front. The money has been locked down. Financial officers think that this first 'rule change' taking away the insurance, is just a preliminary to grabbing the money in private pension funds, like those administered by unions...in order to 'protect' the money.

We've been offered a buy out. Less than what would come in in a single year but I guess we're going to have to take it.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> News on the pension front. The money has been locked down. Financial officers think that this first 'rule change' taking away the insurance, is just a preliminary to grabbing the money in private pension funds, like those administered by unions...in order to 'protect' the money.
> 
> We've been offered a buy out. Less than what would come in in a single year but I guess we're going to have to take it.


Who is grabbing the money? I don't understand the buy-out; the reduction in benefits was supposed to stabilize the funds.


----------



## tamarque

BrattyPatty said:


> Of course it's a conspiracy! I like the fact that Bernie Sanders exposed it.


My comment was a jab at those who resort to GOP propaganda calling exposure of conspiratorial manipulation a 'theory' as a tactic to mock and dismiss what is being said.


----------



## tamarque

jbandsma said:


> News on the pension front. The money has been locked down. Financial officers think that this first 'rule change' taking away the insurance, is just a preliminary to grabbing the money in private pension funds, like those administered by unions...in order to 'protect' the money.
> 
> We've been offered a buy out. Less than what would come in in a single year but I guess we're going to have to take it.


Admittedly I don't know the in's and out's of how pension funds work. I suspect they are run differently and owned differently. Some unions run plans for their members but some are run by the corporations directly I believe. Often there is a matching component from the corporation or the union. This adds to the earning power of the pension as the base increases. However, it seems corporations have some means for declaring the funds bankrupt or for erasing their components. Not sure how it works but we can recall not that many years ago when corporations went belly up and denied all pensions to the workers unceremoniously dismissed. At age 64 my son's FIL was dismissed and the corp for which he had worked many years closed. They did not know what was going to happen with the pensions. He literally dropped dead a couple of months later. I believe the stress for their future was the instigating event killed him.


----------



## tamarque

"Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense. They thrive on servility and shrink before independence." Chapman Cohen

Came across this quote in the blogs of a great article on Hebdo and given the fundamentalism that appears here, thought it relevant.

However, I would expand this to include any kind of thinking that results in the same defensive, true believer type of behavior.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> Who is grabbing the money? I don't understand the buy-out; the reduction in benefits was supposed to stabilize the funds.


Not in pensions administered by unions. The 'rule change' took away the right to have those pensions covered by insurance. I don't know what other unions are going to do but ours has cut off payments after Feb.1 and immediately put the funds into a trust in the names of the pensioneers until the decision of how to return it to the people who paid into it. They're in the process of working out the algorithm for dispersal...length of activity in the program, amount of deposits, etc. But this does not mean we'll get back anywhere near what we put in over 30 years and the interest it accrued (minus, of course, what we've already received)

If I hadn't seen what is going on with what we call our government I would be inclined to think that the board's concerns about the pension fund being confiscated is a conspiracy theory. Losing that pension in the first place has me thinking they might know something they're trying not to panic us with.


----------



## jbandsma

tamarque said:


> "Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense. They thrive on servility and shrink before independence." Chapman Cohen


We killed off all our gods. They were more trouble than they were worth...Worf


----------



## jbandsma

tamarque said:


> Admittedly I don't know the in's and out's of how pension funds work. I suspect they are run differently and owned differently. Some unions run plans for their members but some are run by the corporations directly I believe. Often there is a matching component from the corporation or the union. This adds to the earning power of the pension as the base increases. However, it seems corporations have some means for declaring the funds bankrupt or for erasing their components. Not sure how it works but we can recall not that many years ago when corporations went belly up and denied all pensions to the workers unceremoniously dismissed. At age 64 my son's FIL was dismissed and the corp for which he had worked many years closed. They did not know what was going to happen with the pensions. He literally dropped dead a couple of months later. I believe the stress for their future was the instigating event killed him.


We almost ended up in that situation. If the union hadn't built it into the contract that they would administer the fund. The company, in order to bust the union, sold to another entity. With a sale, the new owners weren't required to abide by the union contract. If the pension fund had been administered by the company, it would then have belonged to the new owners and they'd have had no obligation to see that it got paid out. It would have been just another asset.

And considering what they did with the company, you can bet we'd never have seen a penny.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> We almost ended up in that situation. If the union hadn't built it into the contract that they would administer the fund. The company, in order to bust the union, sold to another entity. With a sale, the new owners weren't required to abide by the union contract. If the pension fund had been administered by the company, it would then have belonged to the new owners and they'd have had no obligation to see that it got paid out. It would have been just another asset.
> 
> And considering what they did with the company, you can bet we'd never have seen a penny.


Which is why unions are needed and why corporations hate them.


----------



## DGreen

tamarque said:


> "Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense. They thrive on servility and shrink before independence." Chapman Cohen
> 
> Came across this quote in the blogs of a great article on Hebdo and given the fundamentalism that appears here, thought it relevant.
> 
> However, I would expand this to include any kind of thinking that results in the same defensive, true believer type of behavior.


That so many religions survive and thrive is a testament to the lack of common sense and belief in science prevalent here in the US. Religion is not shrinking - it's growing. What does that tell you?


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> Which is why unions are needed and why corporations hate them.


Without the union, the new company even refused to pay out what had been earned. We were supposed to get pay, payment for unused vacation, etc. And that WAS part of the condition of the sale.

They've owed us personally about $10,000 since 2002...even without interest. But we're (all the employees) so far down on the creditor list from their bankruptcy that we know we'll never see a penny of that, either.


----------



## tamarque

jbandsma said:


> We killed off all our gods. They were more trouble than they were worth...Worf


😄😄


----------



## tamarque

DGreen said:


> That so many religions survive and thrive is a testament to the lack of common sense and belief in science prevalent here in the US. Religion is not shrinking - it's growing. What does that tell you?


It tells me the education system has worked its wonders in dumbing down the population and Fox News ensures its ongoing success.

BTW--common sense is also a social construct. It is not something you were born with. It is the sum of a collective reality on how to look at and interpret a situation. Common sense is what one does after having internalized the lessons on a cellular level so they no longer have to think about what their response should be in a given situation. We are taught the cues to look for and what the response should be. The essence of common sense is the word common. This is not about independent logic.

Common sense in your community may get you killed in mine.


----------



## tamarque

jbandsma said:


> Without the union, the new company even refused to pay out what had been earned. We were supposed to get pay, payment for unused vacation, etc. And that WAS part of the condition of the sale.
> 
> They've owed us personally about $10,000 since 2002...even without interest. But we're (all the employees) so far down on the creditor list from their bankruptcy that we know we'll never see a penny of that, either.


I am so sorry for you going thru this ordeal. Told you about my son's FIL this past November. The lesson, given over and over is that money = power and is an easy short cut to legal success. The people have numbers but it takes a lot more energy to mobilize ourselves to wage a powerful push back. And having the money, the corporations can maneuver and stall for years trying to wear people down, hoping they will go away frustrated, demoralized, or simply pass away. Pretty cruel of them, but that is what they are. I am sure you know all this. Just a very mini-rant this morning.


----------



## SQM

NJG said:


> I think it is disgusting the way republicans slam Obama no matter what he does. We should have a united front behind the president, not try to destroy him.


certainly this would not have applied to Bush.


----------



## jbandsma

tamarque said:


> I am so sorry for you going thru this ordeal. Told you about my son's FIL this past November. The lesson, given over and over is that money = power and is an easy short cut to legal success. The people have numbers but it takes a lot more energy to mobilize ourselves to wage a powerful push back. And having the money, the corporations can maneuver and stall for years trying to wear people down, hoping they will go away frustrated, demoralized, or simply pass away. Pretty cruel of them, but that is what they are. I am sure you know all this. Just a very mini-rant this morning.


Well, at least your mini-rant won't get you banned from the board. The one I have sitting in my text editor would probably get me banned from the internet.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> Not in pensions administered by unions. The 'rule change' took away the right to have those pensions covered by insurance. I don't know what other unions are going to do but ours has cut off payments after Feb.1 and immediately put the funds into a trust in the names of the pensioneers until the decision of how to return it to the people who paid into it. They're in the process of working out the algorithm for dispersal...length of activity in the program, amount of deposits, etc. But this does not mean we'll get back anywhere near what we put in over 30 years and the interest it accrued (minus, of course, what we've already received)
> 
> If I hadn't seen what is going on with what we call our government I would be inclined to think that the board's concerns about the pension fund being confiscated is a conspiracy theory. Losing that pension in the first place has me thinking they might know something they're trying not to panic us with.


First, my take on the difference between a conspiracy and a conspiracy theory. My definitions.

Conspiracies are everywhere. People with common interests conspire all the time, often by illegal means, to get what they want. Power, money, votes, jobs. Lots of things. They are perpetrated by real, identifiable people, they leave real, tangible evidence. Yes, they can remain secret for a long time, but generally can be traced, proven and understood and seen for what they are.

Conspiracy theories, on the other hand, are often on the fringes of reality. From the oldest, such as the New World Order (100 years in the making) to the newest (that the killings in Paris did not really happen), some people believe the unbelievable because they can't accept that some things can't be controlled. They will accept the scantiest, most implausible "evidence" as proof that unseen, unnamed powers are exerting influence over the uninformed masses. It's the unseen and unknown forces that are the common element of what I consider and call "theories."

Psychologists have studied this dynamic. They have found that people who believe conspiracy theories are generally normal, intelligent, educated people with one thing in common - the belief that they have no control over their world. They have also found that if a person believes one conspiracy theory (9-11 was orchestrated by the US government, for example), they are highly likely to believe in multiple theories. They often firmly believe in two or more theories that directly contradict one another without hesitation and will cling to their beliefs in spite of solid, verifiable proof that the theory is false.

I believe we are faced with a true conspiracy by the right wing extremists to control our electorate, our democracy and our economy. I DO NOT believe they are being guided by some dark, sinister, unseen power. There is no New World Order, plotting to kill off millions or billions of people in order to control the world. Our government can't work out how to keep our bridges from falling down, let alone mastermind an operation so vast, with such an absolute level of precision and control, to do what the conspiracy theorist think they did with the Twin Towers, with the Boston Bombings or with Sandy Hook.

Greed and the power of vast wealth, religion and untreated mental illness? Much more plausible, provable and realistic.


----------



## tamarque

jbandsma said:


> Well, at least your mini-rant won't get you banned from the board. The one I have sitting in my text editor would probably get me banned from the internet.


Yep, know the feeling of self-censoring very well.


----------



## SQM

DGreen said:


> That so many religions survive and thrive is a testament to the lack of common sense and belief in science prevalent here in the US. Religion is not shrinking - it's growing. What does that tell you?


It tells you that for some, religion provides a sense of community and stress release.


----------



## tamarque

DGreen said:


> First, my take on the difference between a conspiracy and a conspiracy theory. My definitions.
> 
> Conspiracies are everywhere. People with common interests conspire all the time, often by illegal means, to get what they want. Power, money, votes, jobs. Lots of things. They are perpetrated by real, identifiable people, they leave real, tangible evidence. Yes, they can remain secret for a long time, but generally can be traced, proven and understood and seen for what they are.
> 
> Conspiracy theories, on the other hand, are often on the fringes of reality. From the oldest, such as the New World Order (100 years in the making) to the newest (that the killings in Paris did not really happen), some people believe the unbelievable because they can't accept that some things can't be controlled. They will accept the scantiest, most implausible "evidence" as proof that unseen, unnamed powers are exerting influence over the uninformed masses. It's the unseen and unknown forces that are the common element of what I consider and call "theories."
> 
> Psychologists have studied this dynamic. They have found that people who believe conspiracy theories are generally normal, intelligent, educated people with one thing in common - the belief that they have no control over their world. They have also found that if a person believes one conspiracy theory (9-11 was orchestrated by the US government, for example), they are highly likely to believe in multiple theories. They often firmly believe in two or more theories that directly contradict one another without hesitation and will cling to their beliefs in spite of solid, verifiable proof that the theory is false.
> 
> I believe we are faced with a true conspiracy by the right wing extremists to control our electorate, our democracy and our economy. I DO NOT believe they are being guided by some dark, sinister, unseen power. There is no New World Order, plotting to kill off millions or billions of people in order to control the world. Our government can't work out how to keep our bridges from falling down, let alone mastermind an operation so vast, with such an absolute level of precision and control, to do what the conspiracy theorist think they did with the Twin Towers, with the Boston Bombings or with Sandy Hook.
> 
> Greed and the power of vast wealth, religion and untreated mental illness? Much more plausible, provable and realistic.


But most often people deny conspiracies because they don't like the facts presented. The NWO is the name that the Bushes used. It is a program to take over the world under US hegemonic control. It is not a theory despite the fact that you are uncomfortable with it. The Neo-conservative movement is not a fiction of people on the extremes. The Twin Towers did not just implode from a plane strike on their upper floors but explosions reported by dozens of rescue workers on the ground floor point to a reality that you might not like. Thermite found in the dust is not a fiction. Dozens of architects and engineers studying the Towers demise are not extremist crazies but mainstream professionals. The demolition expert in your neck of the woods came out and blatantly stated it was a controlled demolition and then they 'retired' him quickly.

Your psychological explanation is downright ridiculous as no one has control in their lives. It is like GOP psycho babble that came up with the idea to trash unpleasant realities by mocking them with this phrase. You, as a self-defined liberal, adopt that language without thinking about why you would use a reactionary right wing tactic to shut down discussion and ideas that make you feel uncomfortable. Your denialism is your effort to impose control on your situation. And if you think psychologists are objective, I have a bridge to sell you real cheap.

What interests me is how many mainstream professionals, people who have served in high-up positions in government under both GOP and Dem administrations, people who worked on executive levels in corporations and people who are/were well respected scientists, investigative reporters keep coming out and blowing the whistle on what goes on behind closed doors. But despite this people like you who think of themselves as rational still make excuses for the nefarious goals of this country and the powers-that-be, the 1% and those very close to them.

But you can believe what you want, just don't try to sell it as fact when facts are presented to the contrary. You can speak calmly and sound coherent but that tells me nothing other than you have learned some communication skills. I do know that when people refuse to hear what is uncomfortable, things that go against your belief systems and respond with ad hominem attacks, name calling, downright trashing and cat calling, at that point I know I am hearing Cognitive Dissonance at work.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> First, my take on the difference between a conspiracy and a conspiracy theory. My definitions.
> ...
> 
> They have also found that if a person believes one conspiracy theory (9-11 was orchestrated by the US government, for example), they are highly likely to believe in multiple theories.


I have to admit to having a hard time NOT believing 9/11 was an inside job. For 2 specific reasons;

1) Not a week before it happened I watched a PBS program on the demolition of buildings in large cities. One of the really interesting parts was about bringing down skyscrapers, having them telescope into the ground and how difficult that is to do. Then you see 2 very tall buildings do just that...standing next to each other.

2) Right after this Cheney is talking about expecting an anthrax attack and it happens. Not only does it happen but it takes the form of delivery outlined in Robin Cook's book "Vector", which was fairly new at the time. And the only people to get these letters with the spores, outside of that one poor mailman, were Democratic congress people.

While I do my best not to make a case out of these things, I can't help feeling, deep down, that there just might be a nice helping of truth to the accusations.


----------



## DGreen

SQM said:


> It tells you that for some, religion provides a sense of community and stress release.


Don't forget, the religious community provides an unbroken flow of self validation. As does D&P.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> I have to admit to having a hard time NOT believing 9/11 was an inside job. For 2 specific reasons;
> 
> 1) Not a week before it happened I watched a PBS program on the demolition of buildings in large cities. One of the really interesting parts was about bringing down skyscrapers, having them telescope into the ground and how difficult that is to do. Then you see 2 very tall buildings do just that...standing next to each other.
> 
> 2) Right after this Cheney is talking about expecting an anthrax attack and it happens. Not only does it happen but it takes the form of delivery outlined in Robin Cook's book "Vector", which was fairly new at the time. And the only people to get these letters with the spores, outside of that one poor mailman, were Democratic congress people.
> 
> While I do my best not to make a case out of these things, I can't help feeling, deep down, that there just might be a nice helping of truth to the accusations.


Correlation does not equal causation.


----------



## DGreen

tamarque said:


> But most often people deny conspiracies because they don't like the facts presented. The NWO is the name that the Bushes used. It is a program to take over the world under US hegemonic control. It is not a theory despite the fact that you are uncomfortable with it. The Neo-conservative movement is not a fiction of people on the extremes. The Twin Towers did not just implode from a plane strike on their upper floors but explosions reported by dozens of rescue workers on the ground floor point to a reality that you might not like. Thermite found in the dust is not a fiction. Dozens of architects and engineers studying the Towers demise are not extremist crazies but mainstream professionals. The demolition expert in your neck of the woods came out and blatantly stated it was a controlled demolition and then they 'retired' him quickly.
> 
> Your psychological explanation is downright ridiculous as no one has control in their lives. It is like GOP psycho babble that came up with the idea to trash unpleasant realities by mocking them with this phrase. You, as a self-defined liberal, adopt that language without thinking about why you would use a reactionary right wing tactic to shut down discussion and ideas that make you feel uncomfortable. Your denialism is your effort to impose control on your situation. And if you think psychologists are objective, I have a bridge to sell you real cheap.
> 
> What interests me is how many mainstream professionals, people who have served in high-up positions in government under both GOP and Dem administrations, people who worked on executive levels in corporations and people who are/were well respected scientists, investigative reporters keep coming out and blowing the whistle on what goes on behind closed doors. But despite this people like you who think of themselves as rational still make excuses for the nefarious goals of this country and the powers-that-be, the 1% and those very close to them.
> 
> But you can believe what you want, just don't try to sell it as fact when facts are presented to the contrary. You can speak calmly and sound coherent but that tells me nothing other than you have learned some communication skills. I do know that when people refuse to hear what is uncomfortable, things that go against your belief systems and respond with ad hominem attacks, name calling, downright trashing and cat calling, at that point I know I am hearing Cognitive Dissonance at work.


Your own words, my emphasis:

"Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense. They thrive on servility and shrink before independence." Chapman Cohen

Came across this quote in the blogs of a great article on Hebdo and given the fundamentalism that appears here, thought it relevant.

*However, I would expand this to include any kind of thinking that results in the same defensive, true believer type of behavior.*

Pot, meet kettle.

I'm leaving town shortly, otherwise I would reply in more detail. Suffice it to say I think your conspiracy theory is pure, unadulterated BS.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> Correlation does not equal causation.


I know and accept that.


----------



## MindyT

SQM said:


> Obama's spokesman said it was a mistake not to have sent someone of "importance". is Ernst his last name? Actually the right would say he is a jihadist sympathizer for not going.


 From the local, which is quoting...
" It is fair to say that we should have sent someone with a higher profile to be there" John Earnest. White House spokesman.
The Frenxh President seemed fine with it, so Faux Noiseof course will attack. Remember American Fries instead of French fries when the Reeps were peeved about France? 
If he had gone, he would have been blasted for going. They somehow can have it both ways and no one (but LLOL) consistently points it out.


----------



## Poor Purl

SQM said:


> He made the decision to ignore the march not the french.


How do you know what happens between them?


----------



## tamarque

DGreen said:


> Your own words, my emphasis:
> 
> "Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense. They thrive on servility and shrink before independence." Chapman Cohen
> 
> Came across this quote in the blogs of a great article on Hebdo and given the fundamentalism that appears here, thought it relevant.
> 
> *However, I would expand this to include any kind of thinking that results in the same defensive, true believer type of behavior.*
> 
> Pot, meet kettle.
> 
> I'm leaving town shortly, otherwise I would reply in more detail. Suffice it to say I think your conspiracy theory is pure, unadulterated BS.


I have thought about your posts, including that butt covering one of yours after you embarrassed yourself with a name-calling rant against me. You claim to be a liberal but when it comes down to dealing with what you don't know and are not comfortable with, you resort to hostility and cursing. As Wombat said some days ago, when you are confronted with information that is not to your liking, you sound no different than the conservative/reactionaries you rail against.

As a pure denialist, you appear rigid and incapable of allowing questioning of your reality. The 911 story has so many holes in it, swiss cheese seems solid in comparison. But you keep your faith based opinions and keep ignoring facts and becoming downright hostile when presented with opposing ideas and even facts. And that is why you are accused of Cognitive Dissonance.


----------



## tamarque

jbandsma said:


> I have to admit to having a hard time NOT believing 9/11 was an inside job. For 2 specific reasons;
> 
> 1) Not a week before it happened I watched a PBS program on the demolition of buildings in large cities. One of the really interesting parts was about bringing down skyscrapers, having them telescope into the ground and how difficult that is to do. Then you see 2 very tall buildings do just that...standing next to each other.
> 
> 2) Right after this Cheney is talking about expecting an anthrax attack and it happens. Not only does it happen but it takes the form of delivery outlined in Robin Cook's book "Vector", which was fairly new at the time. And the only people to get these letters with the spores, outside of that one poor mailman, were Democratic congress people.
> 
> While I do my best not to make a case out of these things, I can't help feeling, deep down, that there just might be a nice helping of truth to the accusations.


It is not just these 2 facts you mention but all the science behind the propaganda mantra. And people like to ignore Bldg 7 which went down the same way but was untouched by planes. The files stored in that building are the key. Things like all the junk bonds that were cashed in the day before by people who made a fortune. Include Bush and Cheney on that list.

When you have the Italian Prime Minister fessing up publicly to the conspiracy of many nations to make 911 happen, this is not correlation. When all airports and flying was shut down in the country but Bush got over 100 Saudis out of the country without any question right after 911, that is not coincidence.

The information is so easily available on the critique of the official report that was quickly thrown together.

What gets over a lot of people is that most people have a very difficult time accepting the evil nature of the powers that be in the country. They do not operate with the same set of values to which most people subscribe. And that even includes the conservative and religious reactionary ones. However, such events are great for creating divisiveness in the country and the 1% has been making hay off of it for 12 yrs now. Enough! I say.


----------



## jbandsma

tamarque said:


> It is not just these 2 facts you mention .


For ME, it is. Plus the fact that there's no way I can even start to accept the theories that it was not a plane that hit the pentagon.

The husband of a very good friend of mine, an eod, worked in the pentagon at that time. He and his team were tasked with checking the wreckage for possible explosive devices or components of explosive devices. It WAS a plane.


----------



## Designer1234

tamarque said:


> But most often people deny conspiracies because they don't like the facts presented. The NWO is the name that the Bushes used. It is a program to take over the world under US hegemonic control. It is not a theory despite the fact that you are uncomfortable with it. The Neo-conservative movement is not a fiction of people on the extremes. The Twin Towers did not just implode from a plane strike on their upper floors but explosions reported by dozens of rescue workers on the ground floor point to a reality that you might not like. Thermite found in the dust is not a fiction. Dozens of architects and engineers studying the Towers demise are not extremist crazies but mainstream professionals. The demolition expert in your neck of the woods came out and blatantly stated it was a controlled demolition and then they 'retired' him quickly.
> 
> Your psychological explanation is downright ridiculous as no one has control in their lives.  It is like GOP psycho babble that came up with the idea to trash unpleasant realities by mocking them with this phrase. You, as a self-defined liberal, adopt that language without thinking about why you would use a reactionary right wing tactic to shut down discussion and ideas that make you feel uncomfortable. Your denialism is your effort to impose control on your situation. And if you think psychologists are objective, I have a bridge to sell you real cheap.
> 
> What interests me is how many mainstream professionals, people who have served in high-up positions in government under both GOP and Dem administrations, people who worked on executive levels in corporations and people who are/were well respected scientists, investigative reporters keep coming out and blowing the whistle on what goes on behind closed doors. But despite this people like you who think of themselves as rational still make excuses for the nefarious goals of this country and the powers-that-be, the 1% and those very close to them.
> 
> But you can believe what you want, just don't try to sell it as fact when facts are presented to the contrary. You can speak calmly and sound coherent but that tells me nothing other than you have learned some communication skills. I do know that when people refuse to hear what is uncomfortable, things that go against your belief systems and respond with ad hominem attacks, name calling, downright trashing and cat calling, at that point I know I am hearing Cognitive Dissonance at work.


--------------------------
I am sorry Tamarque -- I don't agree with you about your beliefs. In fact I find your post rather insulting to be absolutely honest. You have strong beliefs -- Most of us don't agree with you. I feel as if you are talking down to us. I have opinions I have developed over a long life, and I have them from experiences I have live through
I think that you feel you are absolutely correct. Some of what you say makes sense { a smallpercentage of what you espouse} to me but some is not in anyway on my radar.

I think that those on this thread have a lot of different core beliefs but that we are all liberals or Progressives. That doesn't mean we accept everyone elses ideas and it doesn't mean we are 'cognative Dissonense at work because we don't agree with you. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but so are the rest of us. You give no quarter or accept our right to 'not see' what you see. I find your posts interesting but I don't accept a goodly portion of what you say. Some things I agree are possible, most things I just dont accept. We are all wanting what is good for your country and that doesn't mean we all agree as to what is the truth about what is happening.

I don't agree about 9/11 nor do I agree with many of your other statements. You have a right to believe what you believe but so do the rest of us.


----------



## tamarque

Designer1234 said:


> --------------------------
> I am sorry Tamarque -- I don't agree with you about your beliefs. In fact I find your post rather insulting to be absolutely honest. You have strong beliefs -- Most of us don't agree with you. I feel as if you are talking down to us. I have opinions I have developed over a long life, and I have them from experiences I have live through
> I think that you feel you are absolutely correct. Some of what you say makes sense { a smallpercentage of what you espouse} to me but some is not in anyway on my radar.
> 
> I think that those on this thread have a lot of different core beliefs but that we are all liberals or Progressives. That doesn't mean we accept everyone elses ideas and it doesn't mean we are 'cognative Dissonense at work because we don't agree with you. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but so are the rest of us. You give no quarter or accept our right to 'not see' what you see. I find your posts interesting but I don't accept a goodly portion of what you say. Some things I agree are possible, most things I just dont accept. We are all wanting what is good for your country and that doesn't mean we all agree as to what is the truth about what is happening.
> 
> I don't agree about 9/11 nor do I agree with many of your other statements. You have a right to believe what you believe but so do the rest of us.


Shirley--I am sorry we disagree but I am not imposing any beliefs on anyone. What I do post are some facts, some of which are disturbing to many people. But there is a difference betw facts and beliefs. I try to base my opinions on facts. And I carefully pick the people who I give credence to.

However, for a discussion of people with liberal to progressive thinking, isn't it important that people listen with respect. For example I don't know why 911 is held so sacrosanct that questioning it deserves such blatant hostility. That, to me, shows something about the person being hostile.

It would seem more productive if people would agree to be respectful of each other and if they have disagreements then lets have some facts presented.

I will admit that I speak strongly but I also do a great deal of reading and have many experiences that others have not had.
So not sure what you mean by speaking down to people. I don't curse people nor use ad hominems except on rare occasion to mirror that behavior of others. True, it is rare that people see themselves in the mirror.


----------



## Cindy S

Poor Purl said:


> How do you know what happens between them?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :roll: :roll:


----------



## tamarque

jbandsma said:


> For ME, it is. Plus the fact that there's no way I can even start to accept the theories that it was not a plane that hit the pentagon.
> 
> The husband of a very good friend of mine, an eod, worked in the pentagon at that time. He and his team were tasked with checking the wreckage for possible explosive devices or components of explosive devices. It WAS a plane.


Can we please read correctly. I never said anything about the Pentagon. But there is great doubt as to whether it was a plane or something else, like a missile. Much evidence to support this.

And why wouldn't you question the official mantra. There was nothing about it that made sense. Since when does the govt not speak with a forked tongue.

I am sorry you lost people in this assault. That was horrid. But like the Viet Nam war. Soldiers killed and injured is not a reason to support an illegal and unjust war or believe the lies told us.


----------



## MarilynKnits

DGreen said:


> That so many religions survive and thrive is a testament to the lack of common sense and belief in science prevalent here in the US. Religion is not shrinking - it's growing. What does that tell you?


A testament to people being too lazy to think for themselves? People being intimidated by social pressures to "belong"? People having been read too many fairy tales when they were kids?


----------



## BrattyPatty

tamarque said:


> But most often people deny conspiracies because they don't like the facts presented. The NWO is the name that the Bushes used. It is a program to take over the world under US hegemonic control. It is not a theory despite the fact that you are uncomfortable with it. The Neo-conservative movement is not a fiction of people on the extremes. The Twin Towers did not just implode from a plane strike on their upper floors but explosions reported by dozens of rescue workers on the ground floor point to a reality that you might not like. Thermite found in the dust is not a fiction. Dozens of architects and engineers studying the Towers demise are not extremist crazies but mainstream professionals. The demolition expert in your neck of the woods came out and blatantly stated it was a controlled demolition and then they 'retired' him quickly.
> 
> Your psychological explanation is downright ridiculous as no one has control in their lives. It is like GOP psycho babble that came up with the idea to trash unpleasant realities by mocking them with this phrase. You, as a self-defined liberal, adopt that language without thinking about why you would use a reactionary right wing tactic to shut down discussion and ideas that make you feel uncomfortable. Your denialism is your effort to impose control on your situation. And if you think psychologists are objective, I have a bridge to sell you real cheap.
> 
> What interests me is how many mainstream professionals, people who have served in high-up positions in government under both GOP and Dem administrations, people who worked on executive levels in corporations and people who are/were well respected scientists, investigative reporters keep coming out and blowing the whistle on what goes on behind closed doors. But despite this people like you who think of themselves as rational still make excuses for the nefarious goals of this country and the powers-that-be, the 1% and those very close to them.
> 
> But you can believe what you want, just don't try to sell it as fact when facts are presented to the contrary. You can speak calmly and sound coherent but that tells me nothing other than you have learned some communication skills. I do know that when people refuse to hear what is uncomfortable, things that go against your belief systems and respond with ad hominem attacks, name calling, downright trashing and cat calling, at that point I know I am hearing Cognitive Dissonance at work.


Though your opinions may differ, a little respect would be nice. We all have different opinions on many things, but we have never called each other's opinions ridiculous. I found this post to be very condescending.
We all learn from each other and don't always agree, but when we do disagree with each other, we do it respectfully.


----------



## Poor Purl

BrattyPatty said:


> Though your opinions may differ, a little respect would be nice. We all have different opinions on many things, but we have never called each other's opinions ridiculous. I found this post to be very condescending.
> We all learn from each other and don't always agree, but when we do disagree with each other, we do it respectfully.


Tamarque has been spoken to condescendingly, and I think she's simply returning the favor. Somehow, when it happened to her, nobody noticed.


----------



## jbandsma

tamarque said:


> Can we please read correctly. I never said anything about the Pentagon. But there is great doubt as to whether it was a plane or something else, like a missile. Much evidence to support this.


No, there is no doubt in my mind that it was a plane. From hearing it from someone who was not only there but was part of the investigative team. A man who had to pick up body parts. It isn't the government telling me this, it's someone on the scene. Someone I know was affected by the tragedy. Someone I know not to be a stooge or a liar.

And I never said I lost anyone. I said a friend's husband was in the building at the time. You evidently have no idea the size of that building.


----------



## NJG

Well, hallelujah, the pig castrater is going to give the republican reply to the state of the union address. She is just too gullible. None of them want to do it and be criticized like Rubio with his water so they pick her and she is humbled and honored. I will be watching, which I usually can't stand to do, so then I can write her a letter and pick her little speech apart.


----------



## BrattyPatty

NJG said:


> Well, hallelujah, the pig castrater is going to give the republican reply to the state of the union address. She is just too gullible. None of them want to do it and be criticized like Rubio with his water so they pick her and she is humbled and honored. I will be watching, which I usually can't stand to do, so then I can write her a letter and pick her little speech apart.


It was pretty bad when Michelle Bachmann gave the speech. Do you think Piggy Lady will top that??


----------



## BrattyPatty

Poor Purl said:


> Tamarque has been spoken to condescendingly, and I think she's simply returning the favor. Somehow, when it happened to her, nobody noticed.


I like to think of this thread as a non-battle zone.


----------



## DGreen

tamarque said:


> I have thought about your posts, including that butt covering one of yours after you embarrassed yourself with a name-calling rant against me. You claim to be a liberal but when it comes down to dealing with what you don't know and are not comfortable with, you resort to hostility and cursing. As Wombat said some days ago, when you are confronted with information that is not to your liking, you sound no different than the conservative/reactionaries you rail against.
> 
> As a pure denialist, you appear rigid and incapable of allowing questioning of your reality. The 911 story has so many holes in it, swiss cheese seems solid in comparison. But you keep your faith based opinions and keep ignoring facts and becoming downright hostile when presented with opposing ideas and even facts. And that is why you are accused of Cognitive Dissonance.


*I never posted anything resembling an apology to you. What I DID post follows because it bears repeating:*

Tamarque, you and I agree on a huge range of issues. I spent quite a bit of time going back through your postings and our political outlooks are quite similar when it comes to the importance of equality, decent public education and the need to resist privatization, the outrage of private prisons, the need for people to take personal responsibility for their health and so many other issues. I even agree that conspiracies are everywhere if one defines "conspiracy" as a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful. I would add the idea that a conspiracy can also be a group's plan (not necessarily secret) to advance ones' own political or economic interest. Old as time.

Your posts are laced with comments about a wide range of conspiracies. You see them everywhere, and while you may be strictly correct, your penchant for hammering on that issue is sometimes tedious. You have made many statements about conspiracies to repress research on GMO's, that the allopathic medical community likes to sterilize women because of the profit and to keep them on a lifetime of drugs (presumably as a conspiracy with pharma), that mainstream medicine strives to keep people sick and conspires with mainstream media to do so. You say policing has always been a means to control "the masses" for the benefit of the elite. That there is a conspiracy to make Americans dependent on manufactured food. Always, there is the underlying suggestion that all of these things are designed to manipulate the people into being submissive, numb to change, ignorant and confused. Additionally, your general tone does not always acknowledge that these are your beliefs; you state them as facts and strongly imply that anyone who does not agree or who does not read and believe what you read is ill-informed and blind to reality. For example, I personally think Mercola is a quack, engages in junk science and has a little too much profit motive. So what? If his advice works for you and if you feel he has helped you, I have no problem with that. Do what works for you and I can ignore him. Simple. Think GMOs are poison? Avoid them and it doesn't affect me in the least. But please don't tell me that I'm ignorant and close-minded when I choose to do what is right for me - based on my own experience, understanding and beliefs. I'm not stupid and I'm not ignorant and I'm not close-minded. I most certainly do not need to patronized by you. I'm not a fool. I know that capitalism will always try to convince me to part with my money and they'll lie to do it. I know from experience that capitalism will always try to extract the most work for the least money and that they hate unions. Hell, I was fired from a job for union organizing not that long ago. And yes, I can identify and recognize these thing for what they are.

Let me remind you that the "masses" for which you display such disdain is made up of people like me and the other ladies here, many of whom do not share your dark view of our ability to think or form opinions for ourselves. I personally have a much higher opinion of people than you seem to have.

I am often annoyed at your authoritarian tone, even if I agree with whatever message you are relaying. It is clear you are well-read and are exceptionally analytical, but your opinions and analyses are yours. My analysis may be different; the other ladies' analysis may be different. I personally choose to forego excruciating analysis of the whys and history of the world we live in, in favor of identifying what I see as a problem and then trying to figure out how to resolve it. I'm aware of my own limitations so I have to pick and choose how to focus my energy and efforts. Me? I'm more pragmatic. There's a place in the world for both of us.

As for the issues of 9-11 and Sandy Hook, your comments were unbearably provocative to me. If you want to believe in the sinister plot of the New World Order, go ahead and believe. (I think a conspiracy on such a massive scale is an absurdity on a massive scale, so I can laugh it off). However, I believe in our system of government on a deep, even visceral level, and I also believe each of us who chooses to participate can make a difference within the system. I believe we have major problems in the US, but I also believe we have the means to correct them because the pendulum always, always, swings. It's the best we have but we have to work at preserving it. I simply do not believe that huge numbers of people in government and politics are part of some nefarious conspiracy, which is what it would take for the US government to have planned and executed 9-11 and Sandy Hook. The suggestion that our government is an evil, manipulative pawn of some "other" power, willing and capable of murder and subterfuge on a scale that you suggest strikes at the very core of my beliefs. When you used the word "alleged" regarding the attack of 9-11, when you raised questions about possible involvement of our government in Sandy Hook, you hit a raw nerve. Then you doubled down and suggested that I should listen to you if I am interested in the truth. I find that superior attitude troubling and offensive.


----------



## DGreen

tamarque said:


> As Wombat said some days ago, when you are confronted with information that is not to your liking, you sound no different than the conservative/reactionaries you rail against.


Actually, Wombat did not say any such thing. Nebraska did.

Nebraska is your fellow conspiracy theorist, so one would expect you and her to have similar views and similar reactions to my criticism.

Wombat responded to Nebraska's post in support of my position.


----------



## Poor Purl

BrattyPatty said:


> I like to think of this thread as a non-battle zone.


That's exactly how I think of it, but sometimes things go wrong.


----------



## DGreen

Tamarque

You seem to be having trouble understanding why some think you are condescending, so I'm going to help you.

In a post directed at me, you said:

_You can speak calmly and sound coherent but that tells me nothing other than you have learned some communication skills._

Your statement has an excessively superior tone and sounds like you think I'm a monkey who has learned sign language.

Quite offensive. Definitely talking down to me. You do it all the time - to everyone. I'll be happy to provide more examples if you need them. There are plenty to choose from.


----------



## DGreen

Poor Purl said:


> That's exactly how I think of it, but sometimes things go wrong.


Sorry Purl. Put on your helmet.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> Sorry Purl. Put on your helmet.


And don't forget the asbestos underwear.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> And don't forget the asbestos underwear.


 :lol: :lol:

I don't think Purl will need them, but someone else might.


----------



## DGreen

From an Aussie site:


STUPID THEORY 2: The twin towers did not collapse. They were demolished.

SIMPLE REBUTTAL: 9/11 "truthers", who would perhaps be more accurately described as 9/11 "liars", like to rope in an expert to tell you that no office fire ever made a building topple. Well, that'd be because no office fire was ever as big as these two, with as much jet fuel to help it along.

But the real reason the twin towers collapsed was structural. Most buildings have their core structural supports at the centre. The towers had some major central steel columns, but that elegant exterior steel shell was also crucial in providing perimeter support. Also, the perimeter columns supported massive steel trusses which supported each floor.

So basically, when the exterior of the building was penetrated so devastatingly by the planes, the structure's ability to hold itself up was threatened. So when one floor went, the combined weight meant they all went.


----------



## jbandsma

The one question that keeps me from falling for so much of these "facts" is one I very seldom ask any more due to the reaction I've gotten.

A 2 parter

1) if the government/corporations/illuminati (take your pick of groups) is doing all this in secret, how did YOU find out about it and

2) why are you still alive to tell about it?


----------



## DGreen

From Pulitzer Prize winning "The Guardian"

Theory: The Pentagon was hit by a missile, not a plane

The evidence for this, say sceptics, is that the major damage to the building comprised a roundish blast hole, not the more extended destruction some say would be caused by aeroplane wings. Truthers claim parts of a scrapped plane, including the tail, were moved to the Pentagon as part of the fabrication.

This theory ignores the considerable evidence of the bodies of passengers and crew at the site which were photographed. Thousands of people saw the plane circle then fly into the Pentagon. Some quickly photographed the scene. Anyone planting plane debris at the site afterwards would surely have been seen.


----------



## NJG

jbandsma said:


> The one question that keeps me from falling for so much of these "facts" is one I very seldom ask any more due to the reaction I've gotten.
> 
> A 2 parter
> 
> 1) if the government/corporations/illuminati (take your pick of groups) is doing all this in secret, how did YOU find out about it and
> 
> 2) why are you still alive to tell about it?


Good questions.


----------



## DGreen

About Building 7:

STUPID THEORY 3: World Trade Center 7 did not collapse. It was demolished.

SIMPLE REBUTTAL: Riiiight, so the world's tallest tower collapses on its neighbor less than 200m across the road. You've got 110 stories of rubble pummeling a 47-storey building, setting it on fire, covering it in untold extra weight and inflicted untold stresses. And later that day, when the smaller building collapses, it's obvious the CIA did it with explosives. And Elvis left the building right before it happened.

Oh, and if you want a secondary explanation of why the building really wasn't toppled by mysterious people with explosives, try googling any of the so-called architects or engineers in the wacky YouTube vids. Almost none of them appear to be either a) currently employed or b) affiliated with any group other than 9/11 conspiracy groups.


----------



## NJG

BrattyPatty said:


> It was pretty bad when Michelle Bachmann gave the speech. Do you think Piggy Lady will top that??


Bachmann looked in the wrong camera, so we will see if Ernst is smart enough to figure that out. I am so sick of republicans always talking like they know "what the American people want." They only know what 1/3 of the people think they want, the 1/3 that voted for them. I want to ask those on disability if they voted to have their benefits cut.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> The one question that keeps me from falling for so much of these "facts" is one I very seldom ask any more due to the reaction I've gotten.
> 
> A 2 parter
> 
> 1) if the government/corporations/illuminati (take your pick of groups) is doing all this in secret, how did YOU find out about it and
> 
> 2) why are you still alive to tell about it?


You don't fall for them because they are not facts. When I think about your history, seems like keeping your feet firmly planted in reality helped you survive. (Doesn't explain the knife-thrower thing, though.)


----------



## NJG

DGreen said:


> About Building 7:
> 
> STUPID THEORY 3: World Trade Center 7 did not collapse. It was demolished.
> 
> SIMPLE REBUTTAL: Riiiight, so the world's tallest tower collapses on its neighbor less than 200m across the road. You've got 110 stories of rubble pummeling a 47-storey building, setting it on fire, covering it in untold extra weight and inflicted untold stresses. And later that day, when the smaller building collapses, it's obvious the CIA did it with explosives. And Elvis left the building right before it happened.
> 
> Oh, and if you want a secondary explanation of why the building really wasn't toppled by mysterious people with explosives, try googling any of the so-called architects or engineers in the wacky YouTube vids. Almost none of them appear to be either a) currently employed or b) affiliated with any group other than 9/11 conspiracy groups.


Well, thank God Elvis got out. I think the conspiracy theories are a whole bunch on nonsense. I try to live in the real world.


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> Well, thank God Elvis got out. I think the conspiracy theories are a whole bunch on nonsense. I try to live in the real world.


Thank you, NJG. I'm being told I'm very close-minded for not believing the "facts" as presented by one on this thread. It seems I've got a bad case of cognitive dissonance.

Gee, hope it's not contagious.


----------



## NJG

DGreen said:


> Thank you, NJG. I'm being told I'm very close-minded for not believing the "facts" as presented by one on this thread. It seems I've got a bad case of cognitive dissonance.
> 
> Gee, hope it's not contagious.


If not believing in all the conspiracy theories means you are close minded, then I must be close minded too, but hey, we have been called worse.


----------



## DGreen

NJG said:


> If not believing in all the conspiracy theories means you are close minded, then I must be close minded too, but hey, we have been called worse.


Oh, there are many rich comments about my character and mentality.

"As a pure denialist, you appear rigid and incapable of allowing questioning of your reality"

Because I am not a conspiracy theorist, I guess I'm a denialist. Interesting word, don't you think?


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> You don't fall for them because they are not facts. When I think about your history, seems like keeping your feet firmly planted in reality helped you survive. (Doesn't explain the knife-thrower thing, though.)


I was 18 and in love. Wised up fast, so I did. I think that had more to do with the snakes, though.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> I was 18 and in love. Wised up fast, so I did. I think that had more to do with the snakes, though.


I don't think I've ever been that much in love!


----------



## SQM

PP and I met with Camacho and some of her family members this afternoon. We met at Port Authority and with some pre-research, we went to a Thai restaurant in the area (theater district and Times Square.) All were pleased with their food and conversation. Afterwards, we went to Radio City. A rose of a bldg. Then I headed home. Hopefully PP will fill in the rest of our visit. How did it end? Wish you were there. Hi Camacho.


----------



## BrattyPatty

SQM said:


> PP and I met with Camacho and some of her family members this afternoon. We met at Port Authority and with some pre-research, we went to a Thai restaurant in the area (theater district and Times Square.) All were pleased with their food and conversation. Afterwards, we went to Radio City. A rose of a bldg. Then I headed home. Hopefully PP will fill in the rest of our visit. How did it end? Wish you were there. Hi Camacho.


Where is Port Authority, SQ? The only one I know of is where the Staten Island ferry comes in and out of which is probably a substation?
Sounds like you all had a fun day! I haven't been to Radio City in years!
I am trying to get back there this summer after my daughter's wedding. I will need a vacation by then. I am talking a day after my daughter's wedding!


----------



## Designer1234

tamarque said:


> Shirley--I am sorry we disagree but I am not imposing any beliefs on anyone. What I do post are some facts, some of which are disturbing to many people. But there is a difference betw facts and beliefs. I try to base my opinions on facts. And I carefully pick the people who I give credence to.
> 
> However, for a discussion of people with liberal to progressive thinking, isn't it important that people listen with respect. For example I don't know why 911 is held so sacrosanct that questioning it deserves such blatant hostility. That, to me, shows something about the person being hostile.
> 
> It would seem more productive if people would agree to be respectful of each other and if they have disagreements then lets have some facts presented.
> 
> I will admit that I speak strongly but I also do a great deal of reading and have many experiences that others have not had.
> So not sure what you mean by speaking down to people. I don't curse people nor use ad hominems except on rare occasion to mirror that behavior of others. True, it is rare that people see themselves in the mirror.


I certainly understand that you have spent much time checking your facts. I don't argue with your right to believe what you have proven to yourself in any way. Maybe I took your statements wrong but sometimes you seem to feel that we are a bit foolish to not agree with you. It matters not , really. You are my friend and I applaud your strong beliefs, I just find it hard to believe the same things.

I wlll be sending out another newsletter tomorrow morning about your class and the dreambird. and will send you the link.


----------



## Designer1234

DGreen said:


> About Building 7:
> 
> STUPID THEORY 3: World Trade Center 7 did not collapse. It was demolished.
> 
> SIMPLE REBUTTAL: Riiiight, so the world's tallest tower collapses on its neighbor less than 200m across the road. You've got 110 stories of rubble pummeling a 47-storey building, setting it on fire, covering it in untold extra weight and inflicted untold stresses. And later that day, when the smaller building collapses, it's obvious the CIA did it with explosives. And Elvis left the building right before it happened.
> 
> Oh, and if you want a secondary explanation of why the building really wasn't toppled by mysterious people with explosives, try googling any of the so-called architects or engineers in the wacky YouTube vids. Almost none of them appear to be either a) currently employed or b) affiliated with any group other than 9/11 conspiracy groups.


 :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl

DGreen said:


> Sorry Purl. Put on your helmet.





jbandsma said:


> And don't forget the asbestos underwear.


I wonder whether I have any relatives working on the Iron Dome.


----------



## Designer1234

BrattyPatty said:


> Though your opinions may differ, a little respect would be nice. We all have different opinions on many things, but we have never called each other's opinions ridiculous. I found this post to be very condescending.
> We all learn from each other and don't always agree, but when we do disagree with each other, we do it respectfully.


 :thumbup:


----------



## SQM

BrattyPatty said:


> Where is Port Authority, SQ? The only one I know of is where the Staten Island ferry comes in and out of which is probably a substation?
> Sounds like you all had a fun day! I haven't been to Radio City in years!
> I am trying to get back there this summer after my daughter's wedding. I will need a vacation by then. I am talking a day after my daughter's wedding!


As PP advised me - Port Authority Bus Station is on 42nd and 8th. I forget where you live, but I am thinking of moving to Chicago this spring. It was all fun.


----------



## BrattyPatty

SQM said:


> As PP advised me - Port Authority Bus Station is on 42nd and 8th. I forget where you live, but I am thinking of moving to Chicago this spring. It was all fun.


I am about 10 hours drive northwest of Chicago. Close to Minneapolis.
"My kind of town, Chicago is......


----------



## Poor Purl

BrattyPatty said:


> Where is Port Authority, SQ? The only one I know of is where the Staten Island ferry comes in and out of which is probably a substation?
> Sounds like you all had a fun day! I haven't been to Radio City in years!
> I am trying to get back there this summer after my daughter's wedding. I will need a vacation by then. I am talking a day after my daughter's wedding!


It's actually the Port Authority Bus Terminal, which is slightly west of Times Square. Not near any water.

We weren't at Radio City either, just walked past it. Then SQM and Camacho's cousin left to go home, and we walked past the ice skating rink in Rockefeller Center, where a very professional looking skater was practicing. She was unbelievable; I haven't seen anyone spin that fast since the 2012 election.

Then a true New York afternoon event: trying for a half hour to get a taxi. But we finally got one, and the visitors went to visit an aunt in Brooklyn.


----------



## BrattyPatty

Poor Purl said:


> It's actually the Port Authority Bus Terminal, which is slightly west of Times Square. Not near any water.
> 
> We weren't at Radio City either, just walked past it. Then SQM and Camacho's cousin left to go home, and we walked past the ice skating rink in Rockefeller Center, where a very professional looking skater was practicing. She was unbelievable; I haven't seen anyone spin that fast since the 2012 election.
> 
> Then a true New York afternoon event: trying for a half hour to get a taxi. But we finally got one, and the visitors went to visit an aunt in Brooklyn.


Did you get any pictures?


----------



## Poor Purl

BrattyPatty said:


> Did you get any pictures?


No. No one took pictures. Oh, well.


----------



## BrattyPatty

Poor Purl said:


> No. No one took pictures. Oh, well.


When I come I will take lots of pics. It looks like I will be in NY for 3 days and at the Jersey Shore for 3 days.


----------



## damemary

DGreen said:


> Thank you, NJG. I'm being told I'm very close-minded for not believing the "facts" as presented by one on this thread. It seems I've got a bad case of cognitive dissonance.
> 
> Gee, hope it's not contagious.


I'm hoping for an epidemic. More interesting than flu.


----------



## damemary

Poor Purl said:


> It's actually the Port Authority Bus Terminal, which is slightly west of Times Square. Not near any water.
> 
> We weren't at Radio City either, just walked past it. Then SQM and Camacho's cousin left to go home, and we walked past the ice skating rink in Rockefeller Center, where a very professional looking skater was practicing. She was unbelievable; I haven't seen anyone spin that fast since the 2012 election.
> 
> Then a true New York afternoon event: trying for a half hour to get a taxi. But we finally got one, and the visitors went to visit an aunt in Brooklyn.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: You see the humor in everything.


----------



## tamarque

Poor Purl said:


> Tamarque has been spoken to condescendingly, and I think she's simply returning the favor. Somehow, when it happened to her, nobody noticed.


Thank you PP.

People here have been really nasty and condescending to others regularly and call it 'joking.' It is isn't. WE can adhere to the principle of "turn about is fair play," or we can look in the mirror and commit to being civil and respectful regardless of our agreement or not. I have called for this in the past.


----------



## tamarque

DGreen said:


> Actually, Wombat did not say any such thing. Nebraska did.
> 
> Nebraska is your fellow conspiracy theorist, so one would expect you and her to have similar views and similar reactions to my criticism.
> 
> Wombat responded to Nebraska's post in support of my position.


True. Can't always keep everyone's comment straight.


----------



## tamarque

jbandsma said:


> The one question that keeps me from falling for so much of these "facts" is one I very seldom ask any more due to the reaction I've gotten.
> 
> A 2 parter
> 
> 1) if the government/corporations/illuminati (take your pick of groups) is doing all this in secret, how did YOU find out about it and
> 
> 2) why are you still alive to tell about it?


1. Whenever you have groups of people together there is usually a way to get someone to spill the beans. Sometimes it is someone hacking into computers these days. Sometimes it is paper work that gets exposed. How often do we see whistleblowers stepping up to reveal these secrets. What is so hard to understand.

2. It is also easy to see what it happening if you just watch what is being done instead of listening to propaganda. Think of Cheney behind closed doors with his buddy energy moguls early in his first tenure. We have never gotten any tapes or paperwork on those meetings. However for me it is safe to say that is when it was decided to omit fracking from the energy and environmental guidelines. People need to pay attention to what is in front of their nose instead of the pomp and ceremony that is diversionary.

3. Why would my staying alive be evidence for disbelief. They would kill me slowly since my face is not attached to anything that really threatens the powers that be. However, poisoning me with environmental toxins, toxic foods, creating life conditions that are extraordinarily stress producing is more to their interest as it is assumed I will be spending my dollars on their drugs and other medical abuses.

So what is your point here?

What bothers me is that people show little interest or ability to see patterns in the society or world. This is also true in how people deal with social dynamics, losing the forest for the trees. That is the more typical way people perceive and work. It doesn't have to be but that is how the public is trained to think and work.


----------



## tamarque

jbandsma said:


> No, there is no doubt in my mind that it was a plane. From hearing it from someone who was not only there but was part of the investigative team. A man who had to pick up body parts. It isn't the government telling me this, it's someone on the scene. Someone I know was affected by the tragedy. Someone I know not to be a stooge or a liar.
> 
> And I never said I lost anyone. I said a friend's husband was in the building at the time. You evidently have no idea the size of that building.


Picking up body parts does not deal with the questions of what really happened. Why did the FBI/CIA grab every camera in the region to prevent any real viewing of the area. Why was the hole in the building so small. A plane would not have made that hole? Where are the plane parts--they all disappeared instantly?

And working in the building does not mean what is being told by workers is the truth. Don't you think/know that the govt/military/law enforcement got in their instantly to read the riot act to those in the building about what could/could not be said? So picking up body parts was acceptable. It was part of the fear mongering drama that was being created and used to prep the country for a reactionary coup. What you didn't report was anything about the alleged plane parts and what they were. There is a difference.

And you seem to forget the Stand Down order when the 4 planes went off course and the military did not respond as trained to do. And when there was a response, it was called from Boston, another 1/2 hour away when they had military readiness in the D.C. area.


----------



## tamarque

DGreen said:


> Tamarque
> 
> You seem to be having trouble understanding why some think you are condescending, so I'm going to help you.
> 
> In a post directed at me, you said:
> 
> _You can speak calmly and sound coherent but that tells me nothing other than you have learned some communication skills._
> 
> Your statement has an excessively superior tone and sounds like you think I'm a monkey who has learned sign language.
> 
> Quite offensive. Definitely talking down to me. You do it all the time - to everyone. I'll be happy to provide more examples if you need them. There are plenty to choose from.


Sorry you feel put off, but there is a difference btw tone and content. I simply noted that you can sound reasonable when all you are doing is presenting a controlled statement which has nothing to do with content. And I disagree with your content most of the time. I also disagree with how you trash people all the time when they don't agree with your belief systems which are not based on fact. A

I find you incredibly and intentionally rude on a regular basis to me and others. It is your style for imposing your belief system on the group. It is designed to shut people down if they don't support you. Every time you use the term conspiracy theory you are dismissing the idea. Every time you refer to me as a conspiracy theorist, you are dismissing me, personally. Condescending? That is you in the mirror, take a good look.

I learned a long time ago there is a major difference between Nice and Pleasant. Nice is what you do; Pleasant is an affect. I also find liberals value pleasant but think that makes them nice. Quite the contrary. Pleasant is only an affect and provides no guarantee for nice behavior which is how you treat others. You may have learned pleasant, but are quite deficient in being nice in my book.


----------



## tamarque

DGreen said:


> About Building 7:
> 
> STUPID THEORY 3: World Trade Center 7 did not collapse. It was demolished.
> 
> SIMPLE REBUTTAL: Riiiight, so the world's tallest tower collapses on its neighbor less than 200m across the road. You've got 110 stories of rubble pummeling a 47-storey building, setting it on fire, covering it in untold extra weight and inflicted untold stresses. And later that day, when the smaller building collapses, it's obvious the CIA did it with explosives. And Elvis left the building right before it happened.
> 
> Oh, and if you want a secondary explanation of why the building really wasn't toppled by mysterious people with explosives, try googling any of the so-called architects or engineers in the wacky YouTube vids. Almost none of them appear to be either a) currently employed or b) affiliated with any group other than 9/11 conspiracy groups.


Now you sound like all the religious right wingers you like to blast.

Fact: No building fell on Building 7

Fact: Bldg 7 went down exactly like the other 2, imploding on itself.

Fact: Dozens of engineers and architects are professional people, some of them retired, many devoting a lot of their time to expose the fraud of the govt. Something many admire about them, but you seem incapable of understanding due to your deeply held belief system which you will defend to the death.


----------



## tamarque

DGreen said:


> From Pulitzer Prize winning "The Guardian"
> 
> Theory: The Pentagon was hit by a missile, not a plane
> 
> The evidence for this, say sceptics, is that the major damage to the building comprised a roundish blast hole, not the more extended destruction some say would be caused by aeroplane wings. Truthers claim parts of a scrapped plane, including the tail, were moved to the Pentagon as part of the fabrication.
> 
> This theory ignores the considerable evidence of the bodies of passengers and crew at the site which were photographed. Thousands of people saw the plane circle then fly into the Pentagon. Some quickly photographed the scene. Anyone planting plane debris at the site afterwards would surely have been seen.


The problem was not only the size of the hole, but the fact that there were no plane parts found like wings and tails.

Another problem that arose was the kind of flying skills that were required to bring in the plane at that angle, height and speed. The alleged Saudi pilots did not have those skills. Skill military flyers testified that it was impossible for relatively new and mediocre pilots to do this and most trained pilots would not be able to do this either.

There were bodies killed in the Pentagon, but no evidence of passengers from a plane.


----------



## tamarque

Designer1234 said:


> I certainly understand that you have spent much time checking your facts. I don't argue with your right to believe what you have proven to yourself in any way. Maybe I took your statements wrong but sometimes you seem to feel that we are a bit foolish to not agree with you. It matters not , really. You are my friend and I applaud your strong beliefs, I just find it hard to believe the same things.
> 
> I wlll be sending out another newsletter tomorrow morning about your class and the dreambird. and will send you the link.


Thank you Shirley. Disagreement is not my problem--just the way people handle it. Glad to have you a friend. I know my understandings are difficult for many people. The biggest issue for me is process--seeing how people handle disagreements and I find that people who see themselves as liberals; i.e., open-minded, tend to behave the same way as their opponents on the right.

Will look forward to the newsletter. All seems to be moving along pretty well I think.


----------



## jbandsma

tamarque said:


> Picking up body parts does not deal with the questions of what really happened. Why did the FBI/CIA grab every camera in the region to prevent any real viewing of the area. Why was the hole in the building so small. A plane would not have made that hole? Where are the plane parts--they all disappeared instantly?
> 
> And working in the building does not mean what is being told by workers is the truth. Don't you think/know that the govt/military/law enforcement got in their instantly to read the riot act to those in the building about what could/could not be said? So picking up body parts was acceptable. It was part of the fear mongering drama that was being created and used to prep the country for a reactionary coup. What you didn't report was anything about the alleged plane parts and what they were. There is a difference.
> 
> And you seem to forget the Stand Down order when the 4 planes went off course and the military did not respond as trained to do. And when there was a response, it was called from Boston, another 1/2 hour away when they had military readiness in the D.C. area.


Working in the building when you are EOD...Explosive Ordinance Disposal, since you ignored that I take it you don't know what that means...and have to move body parts in order to check for other devices that might not have exploded means that you know what you are working on. You have to in order to keep from potentially blowing yourself up.

As for confiscating all cameras. Gee, I wonder where all those pictures you find on google came from? Including pictures of plane fragments.

OF COURSE photos and videos would be wanted in order to investigate. That's procedure in any witnessed air crash.

You know, you don't have to be so "open minded" that your brain falls out.


----------



## damemary

tamarque said:


> True. Can't always keep everyone's comment straight.


Ain't that the truth? That's one of the reasons I lose interest so quickly when they start one of those, "I said. She said." squabbles. I don't care to follow it.


----------



## DGreen

tamarque said:


> The problem was not only the size of the hole, but the fact that there were no plane parts found like wings and tails.
> 
> Another problem that arose was the kind of flying skills that were required to bring in the plane at that angle, height and speed. The alleged Saudi pilots did not have those skills. Skill military flyers testified that it was impossible for relatively new and mediocre pilots to do this and most trained pilots would not be able to do this either.
> 
> There were bodies killed in the Pentagon, but no evidence of passengers from a plane.


Would you care to cite sources for your "facts?" I'm assuming you were not there, so you must have learned this stuff somehow.


----------



## DGreen

tamarque said:


> Sorry you feel put off, but there is a difference btw tone and content. I simply noted that you can sound reasonable when all you are doing is presenting a controlled statement which has nothing to do with content. And I disagree with your content most of the time. I also disagree with how you trash people all the time when they don't agree with your belief systems which are not based on fact. A
> 
> I find you incredibly and intentionally rude on a regular basis to me and others. It is your style for imposing your belief system on the group. It is designed to shut people down if they don't support you. Every time you use the term conspiracy theory you are dismissing the idea. Every time you refer to me as a conspiracy theorist, you are dismissing me, personally. Condescending? That is you in the mirror, take a good look.
> 
> I learned a long time ago there is a major difference between Nice and Pleasant. Nice is what you do; Pleasant is an affect. I also find liberals value pleasant but think that makes them nice. Quite the contrary. Pleasant is only an affect and provides no guarantee for nice behavior which is how you treat others. You may have learned pleasant, but are quite deficient in being nice in my book.


How lovely to hear you lecture so early in the morning, T.

I'm wondering which statements you are referring to when you say "you trash people all the time when they don't agree with your belief systems which are not based on fact."

Which statements "not based on fact?" Criticism of homeopathy, conspiracy theories and claims of the extreme right? Christianity? Please be specific.

If you're referring to me being rude to joey, Country Bumpkins, lovethelake and soloweygirl, those conversations are consistently confrontational on both sides. I make no apology for them. You could easily make the same accusation toward Purl, Designer, jbandsma, NJG, BrattyPatt, Cookie Queen, Huck and Susanmoss - just for a start.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> Would you care to cite sources for your "facts?" I'm assuming you were not there, so you must have learned this stuff somehow.


You know, if that's true, I wonder what George was picking up to search what was left of seats and undercarriage.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> How lovely to hear you lecture so early in the morning, T.
> 
> I'm wondering which statements you are referring to when you say "you trash people all the time when they don't agree with your belief systems which are not based on fact."
> 
> Which statements "not based on fact?" Criticism of homeopathy, conspiracy theories and claims of the extreme right? Christianity? Please be specific.
> 
> If you're referring to me being rude to joey, Country Bumpkins, lovethelake and soloweygirl, those conversations are consistently confrontational on both sides. I make no apology for them. You could easily make the same accusation toward Purl, Designer, jbandsma, NJG, BrattyPatt, Cookie Queen, Huck and Susanmoss - just for a start.


Oh dear. And I've been on my best behavior. :evil:

Mostly.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> Oh dear. And I've been on my best behavior. :evil:
> 
> Mostly.


Not a criticism of you or any others named. We ALL respond negatively to invasions and attacks from D&Pers.

It's just the right thing to do.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> Not a criticism of you or any others named. We ALL respond negatively to invasions and attacks from D&Pers.
> 
> It's just the right thing to do.


Truly, I HAVE been on my best behavior. I just really don't deal with willful ignorance well.


----------



## DGreen

jbandsma said:


> Truly, I HAVE been on my best behavior. I just really don't deal with willful ignorance well.


You're in good company! All the ladies named are intelligent and thoughtful. I believe it was Dame who pointed out that there are times when "opinions" are either true or false (like conspiracy theories and that gays choose to be gay) and must be challenged. Can't give those sorts of things a pass.


----------



## MarilynKnits

DGreen said:


> Would you care to cite sources for your "facts?" I'm assuming you were not there, so you must have learned this stuff somehow.


I was in my boss's office that morning and she happened to have the TV on for the news. We saw a plane fly into one of the WTC buildings. We saw smoke. I don't think it was Hollywood special effects. We did not see King Kong.

She kept the news on when the rest of us in that morning meeting went back to handle customer calls. She saw the buildings collapse from the top down. News cameras and the ABC local affiliate's chopper were photographing the event. The buildings pancaked. There weren't explosions at the bottom.

In addition, my husband's friend was on his way to work late after an emergency dental appointment. He was a couple blocks away when the first plane went in. He corroborated that what the news program showed was what happened.

Certainly there are bound to be conspirators working on ways to undermine our country as well as other countries like Canada, Great Britain, Australia, Switzerland, where there is personal freedom to speak, travel, self determine to a great extent. There are power hungry megalomaniacs in any society, mentally challenged people who put their agendas above the good of fellow humans.

But too many of us have watched too much of the X Files and other conspiracy theory media and may have mixed fiction with reality. Indeed, usually there are nuggets of reality in all fiction. Doesn't make it all fact, though.

For most of us, plowing through the minutiae of our lives, trying to get our income tax figured out, remembering to pick up the dry cleaning, keeping our meds straight, take up most of our time. All our countries have faced challenges to the basic principles upon which they were founded. We survived the Civil War. France survived and thrived after the Revolution. Somehow we keep moving forward. I may have a Pollyanna perspective, but for every step back we all mostly move two steps forward in progressing to a safer world.

Part of what fuels fears is the increased efficiency with which news of events is available. Instead of seeing the newspaper in two days, we get immediate access to events. And, unfortunately, too many of the people who report the news are not trained analysts or deep thinkers. TV seems to look for pretty faces and charmers.

I appreciate the reports of someone like Martha Raddatz who is obviously not a kid, who goes to the place where things are happening and reports what she sees, and has the intelligence and the common sense based on her experience to give viable reports. And for a news outlet which did not put a Barbie on the job.


----------



## DGreen

MarilynKnits said:


> I was in my boss's office that morning and she happened to have the TV on for the news. We saw a plane fly into one of the WTC buildings. We saw smoke. I don't think it was Hollywood special effects. We did not see King Kong.
> I appreciate the reports of someone like Martha Raddatz who is obviously not a kid, who goes to the place where things are happening and reports what she sees, and has the intelligence and the common sense based on her experience to give viable reports. And for a news outlet which did not put a Barbie on the job.


(Text deleted in consideration of space)

I agree.


----------



## DGreen

From tamarque:

_One thing that bothers me is how people are intentionally limited so they can be controlled. They become pawns in bigger plans for which they are not decision-makers. But once controlled and subsumed to others ideology, they are beyond conversation with different ideas. They become horrified at being asked to consider other ideas. And they can become violent verbally or physically if they cannot close the door._

Ladies, does this statement bother anyone else but me? Do I need to point out that T. is talking about all of *us*?

We have submitted to mind control and have become pawns?


----------



## DGreen

tamarque said:


> The problem was not only the size of the hole, but the fact that there were no plane parts found like wings and tails.
> 
> Another problem that arose was the kind of flying skills that were required to bring in the plane at that angle, height and speed. The alleged Saudi pilots did not have those skills. Skill military flyers testified that it was impossible for relatively new and mediocre pilots to do this and most trained pilots would not be able to do this either.
> 
> There were bodies killed in the Pentagon, but no evidence of passengers from a plane.


From The Guardian.

_The evidence for this, say sceptics, is that the major damage to the building comprised a roundish blast hole, not the more extended destruction some say would be caused by aeroplane wings. Truthers claim parts of a scrapped plane, including the tail, were moved to the Pentagon as part of the fabrication.

This theory ignores the considerable evidence of the bodies of passengers and crew at the site which were photographed. Thousands of people saw the plane circle then fly into the Pentagon. Some quickly photographed the scene. Anyone planting plane debris at the site afterwards would surely have been seen._

Who says there were no plane parts found? Who says there were no bodies of passengers found? Sources, please.

Who were the "skilled military fliers?" Do they have experience and knowledge of the actual plane or just military aircraft? How many testified as you say? Were there others who testified differently?

Round hole? Yes, because the wings were sheared off. The Pentagon is a reinforced concrete building. Wings are structurally weaker than reinforced concrete.

How do you explain the witnesses?

Also, a question of logic.

If, as you claim, our government used passenger planes for the other attacks, why would they use a missile on the Pentagon, knowing that there would absolutely be witnesses and the need to do a massive cover-up. This would increase the risk of information leaks as well as make the "operation" much more complicated and vulnerable to discovery.


----------



## DGreen

A thought on "cognitive dissonance" from "Simply Psychology".

_Cognitive dissonance was first investigated by Leon Festinger, arising out of a participant observation study of a cult which believed that the earth was going to be destroyed by a flood, and what happened to its members  particularly the really committed ones who had given up their homes and jobs to work for the cult  when the flood did not happen.

While fringe members were more inclined to recognize that they had made fools of themselves and to "put it down to experience", committed members were more likely to re-interpret the evidence to show that they were right all along (the earth was not destroyed because of the faithfulness of the cult members)._

This sounds like it is describing conspiracy theorists to a "t." When the belief is challenged or debunked, they are likely to become even MORE convinced of their beliefs.


----------



## Designer1234

DGreen said:


> (Text deleted in consideration of space)
> 
> I agree.


I watched the plane fly into the tower. It was as it was happening. I believe it was the truth that it flew into the tower because they didn't have time to doctor the picture, nor were there explosions at the bottom of either of the towers. It started at the top and went straight down. I will never forget that day or those scenes. I just don't agree that it was an explosion set by anyone there. I saw the plane and so did millions of others.


----------



## DGreen

Designer1234 said:


> I watched the plane fly into the tower. It was as it was happening. I believe it was the truth that it flew into the tower because they didn't have time to doctor the picture, nor were there explosions at the bottom of either of the towers. It started at the top and went straight down. I will never forget that day or those scenes. I just don't agree that it was an explosion set by anyone there. I saw the plane and so did millions of others.


Thank you, Designer. What a horrible thing to watch.


----------



## DGreen

Ladies, I apologize to those of you who may be finding my posts somewhat confrontational today. I freely admit that it is my intent to aggressively challenge tamarque's endless claims about conspiracies.

In response to my challenge that she provide sources for her statements, there was silence. She was on line, posting comments elsewhere after I issued the challenge, but has chosen not to provide any support for her many claims.

The latest, posted today, is more sinister than most. She has posted the following as advice to KPers:

_"The flu shot is not effective and is more likely to cause more severe reactions than not having it.

The CDC data is not real as it promotes the vaccine and then doctors the numbers. For the past 2 yrs it told doctors to stop testing for flu and call every upper respiratory condition flu. The national numbers are very low, once again.

Further, even when the vaccine is considered 'helpful' people still get the flu and healing is only 1 day faster at best. Not a very good indicator of success for a toxic drug.

There are dozens of flu viruses and every year it is a crap shoot as to which ones they put in the vaccine. Amazingly they admit they were totally off the mark this year. But failure has never stopped them from pushing ahead with useless and disastrous programs. Look at all the wars being waged--everything from the Viet Nam war, the Iraqi war and the wars on Terror and Drugs--both of which are manufactured, just like the flu scare.

Better to build your immunity and stay away from the medical industry with its millions of failures and 100's of 1000's deaths each year from legally prescribed drugs in hospitals alone. These are medically acknowledged stats!

As for Jaynjo's perception, it is only one from a hospital point of view which is very limited--only sick people go there and they represent a very small % of people who get sick --or who dont'

Vit D3, Vit C and probiotics will do you more good to avoid being sick and getting better far faster--just to note 3 simple protocols of the many available."_

Essentially, she is advising knitters, many of whom may be seniors, to ignore the advice of their doctors and to listen to her "better" advice. She provides no support for her OPINIONS, but states her OPINIONS as fact. Trouble is, flu kills seniors. That's a fact. Tamarque may be well-read, but I don't think she can claim any medical credentials.

Opinion should be stated as such, particularly when giving medical advice. This post is reprehensible and irresponsible.

Spreading this kind of misinformation is much worse than annoying; it could be deadly.


----------



## SQM

tamarque said:


> The problem was not only the size of the hole, but the fact that there were no plane parts found like wings and tails.
> 
> Another problem that arose was the kind of flying skills that were required to bring in the plane at that angle, height and speed. The alleged Saudi pilots did not have those skills. Skill military flyers testified that it was impossible for relatively new and mediocre pilots to do this and most trained pilots would not be able to do this either.
> 
> There were bodies killed in the Pentagon, but no evidence of passengers from a plane.


"There were bodies killed in the Pentagon, but no evidence of passengers from a plane."

I am unclear about this statement. A neighbor was on that Pentagon plane and he has disappeared forever.

I want to add my thoughts about the flu shots. It is a crap shot. I got the senior dose and it made me sick. It does have mercury in it according to my doctor. Plus it is a total guess since the virus can mutate whenever it wants. And of course this year's version is useless. I will think twice about it in the future and it is big business since on every street corner pharmacy here it is being pushed.


----------



## DGreen

SQM said:


> "There were bodies killed in the Pentagon, but no evidence of passengers from a plane."
> 
> I am unclear about this statement. A neighbor was on that Pentagon plane and he has disappeared forever.
> 
> I want to add my thoughts about the flu shots. It is a crap shot. I got the senior dose and it made me sick. It does have mercury in it according to my doctor. Plus it is a total guess since the virus can mutate whenever it wants. And of course this year's version is useless. I will think twice about it in the future and it is big business since on every street corner pharmacy here it is being pushed.


I sincerely respect your post as it clearly states this is YOUR experience and your opinion. You say, "I want to add my thoughts." You speak of what you plan to do only.

Tamarque does not do this. She makes claims of medical knowledge and claims the CDC is bogus among other things. This is wrong, since she comes across as very authoritative, very definite. She gives advice. Can't call it anything else.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

Designer1234 said:


> I watched the plane fly into the tower. It was as it was happening. I believe it was the truth that it flew into the tower because they didn't have time to doctor the picture, nor were there explosions at the bottom of either of the towers. It started at the top and went straight down. I will never forget that day or those scenes. I just don't agree that it was an explosion set by anyone there. I saw the plane and so did millions of others.


I remember watching it live on TV here in Perth. It was night time here when it was happening. We were delivering Pizzas and the streets just became deserted. Only one person came into the shop that night and he came into the shop to watch the TV. We closed early and my son and I drove down to Mt Lawley to the video shop there, no traffic on the roads. I still get the shudders thinking about it, watching that second plane fly straight into the building. I remember saying to the shop owner "this is the work of Bin Laden" and I was proven correct.

There was a programme some years ago that explained how building 7 collapsed and to me it was a logical explanation. As my son said, it takes time to set up explosions to demolish a building, someone would have noticed what was going on. The Government may be able to silence some of the people some of the time but they cannot silence all the people and maintain that silence. Saddam Hussein tried to silence his people but the truth about his atrocities but the truth leaked out. Pol Pot tried to do the same, but the truth came out. North Korea is still trying to do the same but reports are coming out. It just does not make sense, why would any Government kill so many people in such a horrible way.


----------



## SQM

Ex-man was right there. He worked on Wall Street. It happened just like you saw in the videos. The only incident up for dispute is the PA. plane. The story here was that jet fighters took it down in a secluded area since by that point the military knew where it was headed and why. The story of the passenger heroism is just a cover for what allegedly happened. That makes total sense to me.


----------



## DGreen

EveMCooke said:


> I remember watching it live on TV here in Perth. It was night time here when it was happening. We were delivering Pizzas and the streets just became deserted. Only one person came into the shop that night and he came into the shop to watch the TV. We closed early and my son and I drove down to Mt Lawley to the video shop there, no traffic on the roads. I still get the shudders thinking about it, watching that second plane fly straight into the building. I remember saying to the shop owner "this is the work of Bin Laden" and I was proven correct.
> 
> There was a programme some years ago that explained how building 7 collapsed and to me it was a logical explanation. As my son said, it takes time to set up explosions to demolish a building, someone would have noticed what was going on. The Government may be able to silence some of the people some of the time but they cannot silence all the people and maintain that silence. Saddam Hussein tried to silence his people but the truth about his atrocities but the truth leaked out. Pol Pot tried to do the same, but the truth came out. North Korea is still trying to do the same but reports are coming out. It just does not make sense, why would any Government kill so many people in such a horrible way.


You make excellent sense.


----------



## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> From The Guardian.
> 
> Who were the "skilled military fliers?" Do they have experience and knowledge of the actual plane or just military aircraft? How many testified as you say? Were there others who testified differently?


I've heard people say that the hijackers were such bad pilots that they were actually aiming for the White House and not the Pentagon at all. Which would make much more sense since the country (theoretically...but not so sure about that since it was Bush after all) would be much more crippled by the loss of the commander in chief than it would be by a few, even high level, grunts.


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> I've heard people say that the hijackers were such bad pilots that they were actually aiming for the White House and not the Pentagon at all. Which would make much more sense since the country (theoretically...but not so sure about that since it was Bush after all) would be much more crippled by the loss of the commander in chief than it would be by a few, even high level, grunts.


Sure but what an embarrassment that was that the great Pentagon became a target. My guess was that the PA plane was headed to the White House.


----------



## Knitted by Nan

DGreen said:


> Ladies, I apologize to those of you who may be finding my posts somewhat confrontational today. I freely admit that it is my intent to aggressively challenge tamarque's endless claims about conspiracies.
> 
> In response to my challenge that she provide sources for her statements, there was silence. She was on line, posting comments elsewhere after I issued the challenge, but has chosen not to provide any support for her many claims.
> 
> The latest, posted today, is more sinister than most. She has posted the following as advice to KPers:
> 
> _"The flu shot is not effective and is more likely to cause more severe reactions than not having it.
> 
> The CDC data is not real as it promotes the vaccine and then doctors the numbers. For the past 2 yrs it told doctors to stop testing for flu and call every upper respiratory condition flu. The national numbers are very low, once again.
> 
> Further, even when the vaccine is considered 'helpful' people still get the flu and healing is only 1 day faster at best. Not a very good indicator of success for a toxic drug.
> 
> There are dozens of flu viruses and every year it is a crap shoot as to which ones they put in the vaccine. Amazingly they admit they were totally off the mark this year. But failure has never stopped them from pushing ahead with useless and disastrous programs. Look at all the wars being waged--everything from the Viet Nam war, the Iraqi war and the wars on Terror and Drugs--both of which are manufactured, just like the flu scare.
> 
> Better to build your immunity and stay away from the medical industry with its millions of failures and 100's of 1000's deaths each year from legally prescribed drugs in hospitals alone. These are medically acknowledged stats!
> 
> As for Jaynjo's perception, it is only one from a hospital point of view which is very limited--only sick people go there and they represent a very small % of people who get sick --or who dont'
> 
> Vit D3, Vit C and probiotics will do you more good to avoid being sick and getting better far faster--just to note 3 simple protocols of the many available."_
> 
> Essentially, she is advising knitters, many of whom may be seniors, to ignore the advice of their doctors and to listen to her "better" advice. She provides no support for her OPINIONS, but states her OPINIONS as fact. Trouble is, flu kills seniors. That's a fact. Tamarque may be well-read, but I don't think she can claim any medical credentials.
> 
> Opinion should be stated as such, particularly when giving medical advice. This post is reprehensible and irresponsible.
> 
> Spreading this kind of misinformation is much worse than annoying; it could be deadly.


Unfortunately rumours often contain a glimmer or an element of truth. The officials in the USA have said that the current flu shots do not protect well against the current strain sweeping the USA. The current strain, influenza A (H3N2), is a mutation, as the flu virus mutates very quickly. Even though the current vaccine is not as effective against the current strain is will reduce the symptoms. There is a link to this article here

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2859957/CDC-says-flu-shots-effective-virus-drifted.html

Yes people can and do come down with the disease after being vaccinated but their symptoms are not as great. My daughter caught whooping cough when she was 6 years old and she had been fully vaccinated, but her symptoms were nowhere near as severe as children who had been vaccinated. She was still very ill though. It is vital that older people do receive flu shots every year and the pneumonia shots every five years. Thankfully they are free in Australia for people on the old age pension.

I read an article the other day on probiotics. Yes they do increase the number of good bacteria in the gut, but only whilst you are taking them. Stop taking the probiotics and the number of good bacteria revert to the previous level. They say it is better to boost the strength of the good bacteria in your gut and you can do this by eating more fibre and a healthier diet. It is the same with vitamins. Taking large doses of certain vitamins can actually be harmful. For most people, it is best to get the vitamins our bodies need from eating a variety of healthy, unprocessed foods rather than by taking supplements. Admittedly there are times when some people may need an added vitamin intake, but regularly taking massive doses of vitamins is not only unnecessary but may also be harmful.


----------



## MarilynKnits

DGreen said:


> Ladies, I apologize to those of you who may be finding my posts somewhat confrontational today. I freely admit that it is my intent to aggressively challenge tamarque's endless claims about conspiracies.
> 
> In response to my challenge that she provide sources for her statements, there was silence. She was on line, posting comments elsewhere after I issued the challenge, but has chosen not to provide any support for her many claims.
> 
> The latest, posted today, is more sinister than most. She has posted the following as advice to KPers:
> 
> _"The flu shot is not effective and is more likely to cause more severe reactions than not having it.
> 
> The CDC data is not real as it promotes the vaccine and then doctors the numbers. For the past 2 yrs it told doctors to stop testing for flu and call every upper respiratory condition flu. The national numbers are very low, once again.
> 
> Further, even when the vaccine is considered 'helpful' people still get the flu and healing is only 1 day faster at best. Not a very good indicator of success for a toxic drug.
> 
> There are dozens of flu viruses and every year it is a crap shoot as to which ones they put in the vaccine. Amazingly they admit they were totally off the mark this year. But failure has never stopped them from pushing ahead with useless and disastrous programs. Look at all the wars being waged--everything from the Viet Nam war, the Iraqi war and the wars on Terror and Drugs--both of which are manufactured, just like the flu scare.
> 
> Better to build your immunity and stay away from the medical industry with its millions of failures and 100's of 1000's deaths each year from legally prescribed drugs in hospitals alone. These are medically acknowledged stats!
> 
> As for Jaynjo's perception, it is only one from a hospital point of view which is very limited--only sick people go there and they represent a very small % of people who get sick --or who dont'
> 
> Vit D3, Vit C and probiotics will do you more good to avoid being sick and getting better far faster--just to note 3 simple protocols of the many available."_
> 
> Essentially, she is advising knitters, many of whom may be seniors, to ignore the advice of their doctors and to listen to her "better" advice. She provides no support for her OPINIONS, but states her OPINIONS as fact. Trouble is, flu kills seniors. That's a fact. Tamarque may be well-read, but I don't think she can claim any medical credentials.
> 
> Opinion should be stated as such, particularly when giving medical advice. This post is reprehensible and irresponsible.
> 
> Spreading this kind of misinformation is much worse than annoying; it could be deadly.


Indeed. My doctor told me to get the flu shot no matter how effective it may or may not be. He said some immunity was better than none, and if I did get sick, I would be less sick than without it. He has looked out for my husband and me for years and has not steered us wrong.

Today's paper had an article saying the shot is 23% effective. Not having the shot is 0% effective. Since I volunteer at a health organization and get the shot at no out of pocket expense, I can't lose getting it.


----------



## BrattyPatty

I have gotten the flu shot for the last 10 years. I have never had a reaction and hardly even caught a cold. I haven't gotten it this year because it was said that it wouldn't be as effective this year. I will talk to my doctor and get more info before I get the shot.


----------



## BrattyPatty

For the first time in years I am going to miss the "State of the Union" address tonight. In the past we would get Chinese take out and watch it.
Tonight is my DH"s delayed Christmas party at work. I hope they will show it in full later this evening.
I want to see the pig lady give her follow up speech.


----------



## DGreen

BrattyPatty said:


> For the first time in years I am going to miss the "State of the Union" address tonight. In the past we would get Chinese take out and watch it.
> Tonight is my DH"s delayed Christmas party at work. I hope they will show it in full later this evening.
> I want to see the pig lady give her follow up speech.


Can you record the whole thing? What we get later is only what the media considers important.


----------



## DGreen

SQM said:


> Ex-man was right there. He worked on Wall Street. It happened just like you saw in the videos. The only incident up for dispute is the PA. plane. The story here was that jet fighters took it down in a secluded area since by that point the military knew where it was headed and why. The story of the passenger heroism is just a cover for what allegedly happened. That makes total sense to me.


Why does it makes sense that the story about the PA plane was fabricated? To avoid criticism of the decision to shoot it down? That they should NOT have shot it down?

What about the phone messages? Pretty elaborate. Hard to keep secret forever.


----------



## NJG

DGreen said:


> From tamarque:
> 
> _One thing that bothers me is how people are intentionally limited so they can be controlled. They become pawns in bigger plans for which they are not decision-makers. But once controlled and subsumed to others ideology, they are beyond conversation with different ideas. They become horrified at being asked to consider other ideas. And they can become violent verbally or physically if they cannot close the door._
> 
> Ladies, does this statement bother anyone else but me? Do I need to point out that T. is talking about all of *us*?
> 
> We have submitted to mind control and have become pawns?


And what makes her the one who knows it all and the person we should be listening to. I think we are all capable of thinking for ourselves. The one question I have through out all her postings is where do you get your information and why should we believe you. I think if I really believed as she does, I should lock myself in my house and crawl into a corner somewhere and be afraid to move.


----------



## SQM

NJG said:


> And what makes her the one who knows it all and the person we should be listening to. I think we are all capable of thinking for ourselves. The one question I have through out all her postings is where do you get your information and why should we believe you. I think if I really believed as she does, I should lock myself in my house and crawl into a corner somewhere and be afraid to move.


yeah - one's own spin on the world is always so much more interesting regardless if one is right or wrong.


----------



## NJG

BrattyPatty said:


> For the first time in years I am going to miss the "State of the Union" address tonight. In the past we would get Chinese take out and watch it.
> Tonight is my DH"s delayed Christmas party at work. I hope they will show it in full later this evening.
> I want to see the pig lady give her follow up speech.


It will be on Jan 20th, next Tuesday.


----------



## cookiequeen

SQM said:


> "There were bodies killed in the Pentagon, but no evidence of passengers from a plane."
> 
> I am unclear about this statement. A neighbor was on that Pentagon plane and he has disappeared forever.
> 
> I want to add my thoughts about the flu shots. It is a crap shot. I got the senior dose and it made me sick. It does have mercury in it according to my doctor. Plus it is a total guess since the virus can mutate whenever it wants. And of course this year's version is useless. I will think twice about it in the future and it is big business since on every street corner pharmacy here it is being pushed.


I think it is better to be prudent and get some protection against some strains of flu than to go without.


----------



## cookiequeen

O


DGreen said:


> Ladies, I apologize to those of you who may be finding my posts somewhat confrontational today. I freely admit that it is my intent to aggressively challenge tamarque's endless claims about conspiracies.
> 
> In response to my challenge that she provide sources for her statements, there was silence. She was on line, posting comments elsewhere after I issued the challenge, but has chosen not to provide any support for her many claims.
> 
> The latest, posted today, is more sinister than most. She has posted the following as advice to KPers:
> 
> _"The flu shot is not effective and is more likely to cause more severe reactions than not having it.
> 
> The CDC data is not real as it promotes the vaccine and then doctors the numbers. For the past 2 yrs it told doctors to stop testing for flu and call every upper respiratory condition flu. The national numbers are very low, once again.
> 
> Further, even when the vaccine is considered 'helpful' people still get the flu and healing is only 1 day faster at best. Not a very good indicator of success for a toxic drug.
> 
> There are dozens of flu viruses and every year it is a crap shoot as to which ones they put in the vaccine. Amazingly they admit they were totally off the mark this year. But failure has never stopped them from pushing ahead with useless and disastrous programs. Look at all the wars being waged--everything from the Viet Nam war, the Iraqi war and the wars on Terror and Drugs--both of which are manufactured, just like the flu scare.
> 
> Better to build your immunity and stay away from the medical industry with its millions of failures and 100's of 1000's deaths each year from legally prescribed drugs in hospitals alone. These are medically acknowledged stats!
> 
> As for Jaynjo's perception, it is only one from a hospital point of view which is very limited--only sick people go there and they represent a very small % of people who get sick --or who dont'
> 
> Vit D3, Vit C and probiotics will do you more good to avoid being sick and getting better far faster--just to note 3 simple protocols of the many available."_
> 
> Essentially, she is advising knitters, many of whom may be seniors, to ignore the advice of their doctors and to listen to her "better" advice. She provides no support for her OPINIONS, but states her OPINIONS as fact. Trouble is, flu kills seniors. That's a fact. Tamarque may be well-read, but I don't think she can claim any medical credentials.
> 
> Opinion should be stated as such, particularly when giving medical advice. This post is reprehensible and irresponsible.
> 
> Spreading this kind of misinformation is much worse than annoying; it could be deadly.


I have a neighbor who is opposed to vaccines, takes her dog to an alternative vet, doesn't eat gluten, is allergic to nuts (but never had allergy tests and doesn't take any medication), eats and slathers on anything coconut oil-ish, took her husband off statins because he had a sore knee, and is now "allergic" to sugar. She sends me articles and "evidence" from Dr. Mercola and a ton of others. Testimonials don't equate with scientific evidence. Yes, I understand that many studies are conducted by "Big Pharma" but people who sell coconut oil, probiotics, and a bunch of,other stuff I never heard of are also making a ton of money selling products and themselves---without offering a shred of scientific evidence. When I went to school we had to read, dissect, analyze, and even replicate some studies we read in various journals. How can seemingly intelligent people NOT demand scientific evidence. My neighbor exercises and follows her paleo diet, but still has an awful sore knee. Some people don't understand that there are many things that cause disease and illness besides eating the "wrong" stuff.
P.S. Her dog ended up having to have an expensive knee surgery despite eating the "right" food and eating green stuff. I don't knock something if it works for you and doesn't cause harm, but I choose to seek out reputable info where my health is concerned.


----------



## DGreen

cookiequeen said:


> O
> 
> I have a neighbor who is opposed to vaccines, takes her dog to an alternative vet, doesn't eat gluten, is allergic to nuts (but never had allergy tests and doesn't take any medication), eats and slathers on anything coconut oil-ish, took her husband off statins because he had a sore knee, and is now "allergic" to sugar. She sends me articles and "evidence" from Dr. Mercola and a ton of others. Testimonials don't equate with scientific evidence. Yes, I understand that many studies are conducted by "Big Pharma" but people who sell coconut oil, probiotics, and a bunch of,other stuff I never heard of are also making a ton of money selling products and themselves---without offering a shred of scientific evidence. When I went to school we had to read, dissect, analyze, and even replicate some studies we read in various journals. How can seemingly intelligent people NOT demand scientific evidence. My neighbor exercises and follows her paleo diet, but still has an awful sore knee. Some people don't understand that there are many things that cause disease and illness besides eating the "wrong" stuff.
> P.S. Her dog ended up having to have an expensive knee surgery despite eating the "right" food and eating green stuff. I don't knock something if it works for you and doesn't cause harm, but I choose to seek out reputable info where my health is concerned.


Sounds like your neighbor is susceptible to every fad that comes along.

Reminds me of a Naturopathic Intern who came to work with us when I worked at the medical school. I administered benefits and went over the insurance package with her. It was actually an excellent plan and inexpensive, but she declined to participate. Why? Because she said, "I take care of myself and don't plan on getting sick." This, from an already-qualified naturopathic physician.

Yes, I did a face-plant. NO ONE plans on getting sick. I don't care how well you take care of yourself, viruses and bacteria exist, especially in places where one is treating SICK people. Cancer and accidents happen. So does blind stupidity.

I've heard sugar is "poison" but an allergy to sugar? Which kind? Fructose, dextrose, plain sucrose? Think of the ramifications. Of course, uninformed people probably only think of sugar as the white stuff in the bowl and don't understand about other natural sugars.


----------



## SQM

I don't understand the paleo diet. Paleo people were lucky to live to 25. What kind of diet would that be to follow? All PR crap.


----------



## DGreen

SQM said:


> I don't understand the paleo diet. Paleo people were lucky to live to 25. What kind of diet would that be to follow? All PR crap.


It sells books.


----------



## SQM

DGreen said:


> It sells books.


What do you eat? Mastodons and dodo birds?


----------



## cookiequeen

Here's the latest from Dr. Ben Carson, darling of the conservatives. Can you imagine the hue and cry if President Obama had said this??
I hope this guy runs for president.


Ben Carson: Founding Fathers, ISIS Both 'Willing to Die For What They Believed In'
CORONADO, Calif. -- Neurosurgeon Ben Carson on Thursday suggested that Americans can learn from the Islamic State's willingness to die for their cause, comparing ISIS to the Americans who waged the Revolutionary War against the British.

Carson, a conservative who's considering running for president, made the comments at the Republican National Committee's winter meeting.

"A bunch of rag tag militiamen defeated the most powerful and professional military force on the planet. Why? Because they believed in what they were doing. They were willing to die for what they believed in," Carson told a luncheon audience of national committee members. "Fast forward to today. What do we have? You've got ISIS. They've got the wrong philosophy, but they're willing to die for it while we are busily giving away every belief and every value for the sake of political correctness. We have to change that."

Carson then preemptively criticized the press, whom he said would seize on the comments.

"Now I recognize that there's press here and some of the press will say, 'Carson said that ISIS is the same as the United States,'" he said. "They are just so ridiculous, so ridiculous."

RNC Chairman Reince Priebus told NBC Thursday that Carson was making a point about standing up for one's beliefs.

"I think what he was saying basically was that you have to believe in what you stand for, and that we have to believe in the ideals of America, I didn't think anything odd of it," he said. "I think he was making a point, and I think his point was to stand up for the things that you believe in."

In his luncheon speech, Carson also ticked through a list of what he said are comments that have been identified as controversial. He touched on remarks about homosexuality, the Gestapo and the IRS, and his declaration that the scandal at the Veterans Affairs Administration was a "gift from God."


----------



## SQM

Carson is a nut. I hope the media do not promote him.


----------



## cookiequeen

SQM said:


> Carson is a nut. I hope the media do not promote him.


I think he's a nut, too. I think the nutters are easier to defeat than a Jeb Bush.


----------



## SQM

Are we all thinking the same thing when we discuss PC? Maybe the definition has changed since my day.


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> Are we all thinking the same thing when we discuss PC? Maybe the definition has changed since my day.


The conservative fringe calls anything they hear discussed that they disagree with PC and say it's gone too far.


----------



## SQM

jbandsma said:


> The conservative fringe calls anything they hear discussed that they disagree with PC and say it's gone too far.


Some examples, s'il vous plait?


----------



## Cheeky Blighter

cookiequeen said:


> I think he's a nut, too. I think the nutters are easier to defeat than a Jeb Bush.


Carson is the token Black in the GOP presidential cycle this time around and nothing more.


----------



## jbandsma

SQM said:


> Some examples, s'il vous plait?


There are so many that I don't know where to begin. Mostly the words considered 'pc too far' are words that are put downs of people who are differently abled (there's one for you) or of a religious or political bent they don't agree with.

Undocumented persons will get you the response "why use this PC crap when you mean 'illegals'?" That type of thing.


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## SQM

jbandsma said:


> There are so many that I don't know where to begin. Mostly the words considered 'pc too far' are words that are put downs of people who are differently abled (there's one for you) or of a religious or political bent they don't agree with.
> 
> Undocumented persons will get you the response "why use this PC crap when you mean 'illegals'?" That type of thing.


Thanks for the explanation. I think that we have to be clear about what pc represents for each of us. Same page???


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## NJG

cookiequeen said:


> Here's the latest from Dr. Ben Carson, darling of the conservatives. Can you imagine the hue and cry if President Obama had said this??
> I hope this guy runs for president.
> 
> Ben Carson: Founding Fathers, ISIS Both 'Willing to Die For What They Believed In'
> CORONADO, Calif. -- Neurosurgeon Ben Carson on Thursday suggested that Americans can learn from the Islamic State's willingness to die for their cause, comparing ISIS to the Americans who waged the Revolutionary War against the British.
> 
> Carson, a conservative who's considering running for president, made the comments at the Republican National Committee's winter meeting.
> 
> "A bunch of rag tag militiamen defeated the most powerful and professional military force on the planet. Why? Because they believed in what they were doing. They were willing to die for what they believed in," Carson told a luncheon audience of national committee members. "Fast forward to today. What do we have? You've got ISIS. They've got the wrong philosophy, but they're willing to die for it while we are busily giving away every belief and every value for the sake of political correctness. We have to change that."
> 
> Carson then preemptively criticized the press, whom he said would seize on the comments.
> 
> "Now I recognize that there's press here and some of the press will say, 'Carson said that ISIS is the same as the United States,'" he said. "They are just so ridiculous, so ridiculous."
> 
> RNC Chairman Reince Priebus told NBC Thursday that Carson was making a point about standing up for one's beliefs.
> 
> "I think what he was saying basically was that you have to believe in what you stand for, and that we have to believe in the ideals of America, I didn't think anything odd of it," he said. "I think he was making a point, and I think his point was to stand up for the things that you believe in."
> 
> In his luncheon speech, Carson also ticked through a list of what he said are comments that have been identified as controversial. He touched on remarks about homosexuality, the Gestapo and the IRS, and his declaration that the scandal at the Veterans Affairs Administration was a "gift from God."


Like I said before they are all part of the republican circus and we have to put up with it for another 22 months.


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## NJG

For those on the right defending every policeman regardless, they can try to defend these. I need to post this on FaceBook for a couple cousins of mine that do that constantly.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/15/north-miami-beach-target-practice_n_6482964.html


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## Designer1234

DGreen said:


> Thank you, Designer. What a horrible thing to watch.


We had the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. on one tv Cnn - and also switched to MSNBC. I surfed the different news and in everyone the pictures were the ones I saw at the beginning WHILE IT WAS HAPPENING. I just don't believe it was done by your Government or by anyone else on the ground. The plane flew directly into the building in both cases.

The only conspiracy in my opinion was ElQuaida (?) - and they had it well planned. Including the takover of the other plane that the heroes tried to take over and that crashed instead of hitting another building. I also watched the plane hit in Washington and saw the hole which occurred as a result. No one will convince me it was a conspiracy of your Government - or a central group who were involved except for the terrorists who admitted it was their plan which was carried out.


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## DGreen

NJG said:


> For those on the right defending every policeman regardless, they can try to defend these. I need to post this on FaceBook for a couple cousins of mine that do that constantly.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/15/north-miami-beach-target-practice_n_6482964.html


Sick bastards.


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## DGreen

Designer1234 said:


> We had the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. on one tv Cnn - and also switched to MSNBC. I surfed the different news and in everyone the pictures were the ones I saw at the beginning WHILE IT WAS HAPPENING. I just don't believe it was done by your Government or by anyone else on the ground. The plane flew directly into the building in both cases.
> 
> The only conspiracy in my opinion was ElQuaida (?) - and they had it well planned. Including the takover of the other plane that the heroes tried to take over and that crashed instead of hitting another building. I also watched the plane hit in Washington and saw the hole which occurred as a result. No one will convince me it was a conspiracy of your Government - or a central group who were involved except for the terrorists who admitted it was their plan which was carried out.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## jbandsma

DGreen said:


> Sick bastards.


This is nothing new for Florida. Until the mid-70s (and it might even still be going on) African American inmates were used as dog training targets. Taken out in the swamp and told to run and then bite trained dogs sent after them.


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## NJG

They will never let this end. There are no longer any words to describe Fox News. According to Fox News:

Fox News revived the baseless conspiracy theory that the nearly three-year old federal investigation into former CIA director David Petraeus is an attempt by the Obama administration to silence Petraeus on the 2012 Benghazi attacks.


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## Wombatnomore

SQM said:


> It tells you that for some, religion provides a sense of community and stress release.


And for others it's a crutch; an escape; an alternative to drugs and alcohol (wait, scratch the alcohol).


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## DGreen

Wombatnomore said:


> And for others it's a crutch; an escape; an alternative to drugs and alcohol (wait, scratch the alcohol).


Or a public display to mask the alcohol and drug abuse. And don't forget sexual perversions.

To be clear - I do NOT believe this is true of all religious people. But for some, public displays and religious activities can certainly serve a purpose.


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## Wombatnomore

DGreen said:


> Actually, Wombat did not say any such thing. Nebraska did.
> 
> Nebraska is your fellow conspiracy theorist, so one would expect you and her to have similar views and similar reactions to my criticism.
> 
> Wombat responded to Nebraska's post in support of my position.


Green, thanks for the clarification. You just saved me from some frantic searching for said post.

Tamarque, I admire both yours and Green's high intellect and passion for your respective ideals. I only wish I had the knowledge I would need of internal American politics and American societal nuance to be able to engage with you both. I don't but I have to say that you both write with great knowledge and plausibility.

The rebuttals you present to each other, while a tad sharp (I wouldn't say hostile), is to be expected between two such apposing and strong viewpoints.


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## Wombatnomore

jbandsma said:


> And don't forget the asbestos underwear.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Wombatnomore

DGreen said:


> :lol: :lol:
> 
> I don't think Purl will need them, but someone else might.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## SQM

NJG said:


> They will never let this end. There are no longer any words to describe Fox News. According to Fox News:
> 
> Fox News revived the baseless conspiracy theory that the nearly three-year old federal investigation into former CIA director David Petraeus is an attempt by the Obama administration to silence Petraeus on the 2012 Benghazi attacks.


Someone was out to get him. Who cares if he has a mistress. They are charging him with a felony over something that may be a set up. I certainly am not accusing Obama; instead I say follow the money. What was Petraeus' worth? Who would be his natural enemy? Petraeus was destroyed but can you rely on the story about blabbing to her? it is just a film noir cliche.

And I still cannot shake last week's no-show in France. Did O read the public sentiment so wrongly? Or did America think it was wise not to have gone? ?????????


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## Wombatnomore

SQM said:


> PP and I met with Camacho and some of her family members this afternoon. We met at Port Authority and with some pre-research, we went to a Thai restaurant in the area (theater district and Times Square.) All were pleased with their food and conversation. Afterwards, we went to Radio City. A rose of a bldg. Then I headed home. Hopefully PP will fill in the rest of our visit. How did it end? Wish you were there. Hi Camacho.


I'm so glad it went well. What a lovely foray into New York for Camacho by two of New York's finest!


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## Wombatnomore

SQM said:


> As PP advised me - Port Authority Bus Station is on 42nd and 8th. I forget where you live, but I am thinking of moving to Chicago this spring. It was all fun.


What's the go with the real estate in Chicago?


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## SQM

Wombatnomore said:


> What's the go with the real estate in Chicago?


Totally stressed. Getting all kinds of advice so I am confused. Everyone is being very reasonable even if the advice is contradictory. I realize I will need to go to Chicago as soon as the season starts. I don't know when that is exactly.

Wish I had a crystal ball. Do you think there are psychics on KP?


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## Wombatnomore

EveMCooke said:


> I remember watching it live on TV here in Perth. It was night time here when it was happening. We were delivering Pizzas and the streets just became deserted. Only one person came into the shop that night and he came into the shop to watch the TV. We closed early and my son and I drove down to Mt Lawley to the video shop there, no traffic on the roads. I still get the shudders thinking about it, watching that second plane fly straight into the building. I remember saying to the shop owner "this is the work of Bin Laden" and I was proven correct.
> 
> There was a programme some years ago that explained how building 7 collapsed and to me it was a logical explanation. As my son said, it takes time to set up explosions to demolish a building, someone would have noticed what was going on. The Government may be able to silence some of the people some of the time but they cannot silence all the people and maintain that silence. Saddam Hussein tried to silence his people but the truth about his atrocities but the truth leaked out. Pol Pot tried to do the same, but the truth came out. North Korea is still trying to do the same but reports are coming out. It just does not make sense, why would any Government kill so many people in such a horrible way.


I was woken at 0230am by the phone. It was my ex telling me to put the TV on. Couldn't believe what I was watching. So upsetting and sad. Had to work that day but was upset and tearful all morning so I took the rest of the day off. I was glued to that TV for days. I think everyone's lives were changed that day.


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## Wombatnomore

jbandsma said:


> I've heard people say that the hijackers were such bad pilots that they were actually aiming for the White House and not the Pentagon at all. Which would make much more sense since the country (theoretically...but not so sure about that since it was Bush after all) would be much more crippled by the loss of the commander in chief than it would be by a few, even high level, grunts.


I heard the plane which crashed in the field was meant for the White House.


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## DGreen

SQM said:


> Totally stressed. Getting all kinds of advice so I am confused. Everyone is being very reasonable even if the advice is contradictory. I realize I will need to go to Chicago as soon as the season starts. I don't know when that is exactly.
> 
> Wish I had a crystal ball. Do you think there are psychics on KP?


Plenty of predictions, SQM. Too bad they have nothing to do with what you need to know.


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## Wombatnomore

BrattyPatty said:


> For the first time in years I am going to miss the "State of the Union" address tonight. In the past we would get Chinese take out and watch it.
> Tonight is my DH"s delayed Christmas party at work. I hope they will show it in full later this evening.
> I want to see the pig lady give her follow up speech.


I was watching the head of the International Money Fund speak yesterday and she stated that the U.S.A. would be the only country breaking the trend (of bleak outlooks) in terms of their economy which is looking very healthy. (Me paraphrasing).


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## Wombatnomore

SQM said:


> I don't understand the paleo diet. Paleo people were lucky to live to 25. What kind of diet would that be to follow? All PR crap.


It's a good way to eat if you follow it's principles only. I don't agree with eradicating grains and wheat/rice etc., from one's diet. But a diet rich in protein and vegetation, whatever diet it may be is good.


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## Wombatnomore

SQM said:


> Totally stressed. Getting all kinds of advice so I am confused. Everyone is being very reasonable even if the advice is contradictory. I realize I will need to go to Chicago as soon as the season starts. I don't know when that is exactly.
> 
> Wish I had a crystal ball. Do you think there are psychics on KP?


I see in the stars and the cosmos that your move will be seamless and comfortable!


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## Knitted by Nan

Wombatnomore said:


> And for others it's a crutch; an escape; an alternative to drugs and alcohol (wait, scratch the alcohol).


Or in my ex's case, a means to set yourself up as an all knowing and all powerful leader who expected to be waited on hand and foot and who also expected to use his Buddhist Meditation and Study Centre as a cash cow. Unfortunately he had a wife who told the people who came to the centre that they did not have to contribute anything to the centre, we did not charge anyone to use the library or use the meditation room. Boy was he angry when he discovered that I was telling people that they did not have to give him any money. Unfortunately he tried to set up a Buddhist retreat on at least 10 occasions and in 10 different locations and over a period of 30 years and when he died he still had not succeeded. When I lived with him I would not join in his discussions on Buddhism because he would often go off on a tangent and would not let others voice their opposition to his interpretations. I was not the only person who saw this side of him and many people stopped coming to the centre. He was able to constantly recruit new members because he was a very good looking man and could be very charming and charismatic, as can all con artists. I was told that when he died there were only four people at his funeral, his next door neighbour, his former neighbour, his niece to whom he left his money and her husband. The members of the Buddhist Societies in Tasmania did not attend and neither did any of the monks. This really was very sad, he worked hard but he never really gained the control or monetary benefit he strove for.

People also join a religion to gain prestige, control, power and monetary rewards.


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## Knitted by Nan

Wombatnomore said:


> Green, thanks for the clarification. You just saved me from some frantic searching for said post.
> 
> Tamarque, I admire both yours and Green's high intellect and passion for your respective ideals. I only wish I had the knowledge I would need of internal American politics and American societal nuance to be able to engage with you both. I don't but I have to say that you both write with great knowledge and plausibility.
> 
> The rebuttals you present to each other, while a tad sharp (I wouldn't say hostile), is to be expected between two such apposing and strong viewpoints.


I do not know about your Wombat but the only time I have found there to be very strong discussions and exchanges of views on political matters was in my Uni days. Boy did we have some heated discussions then. But the Aussie man in the street appear apathetic towards politics in general. They will run down a leader, especially the leader of the other party, but they will then not bother to carry on the discussion. Aussies will probably tell you that you are a 'flammin lunatic for following that crowd of drongoes', or tell you where to go, but there is nothing like the name calling and carry on that happens in the U S A. Are we too lazy or does the political argy bargy eat into our beer drinking time? A few years ago I rejoined the local ALP Branch and attended their fortnightly meetings. We could have rattled around in a phone box and still had room to spare. Including me the total number who turned up at the meetings was 6 and always the same 6.


----------



## SQM

Wombatnomore said:


> I see in the stars and the cosmos that your move will be seamless and comfortable!


Thanks. I wish the cosmos would pack and discard for me.


----------



## DGreen

EveMCooke said:


> Or in my ex's case, a means to set yourself up as an all knowing and all powerful leader who expected to be waited on hand and foot and who also expected to use his Buddhist Meditation and Study Centre as a cash cow. Unfortunately he had a wife who told the people who came to the centre that they did not have to contribute anything to the centre, we did not charge anyone to use the library or use the meditation room. Boy was he angry when he discovered that I was telling people that they did not have to give him any money. Unfortunately he tried to set up a Buddhist retreat on at least 10 occasions and in 10 different locations and over a period of 30 years and when he died he still had not succeeded. When I lived with him I would not join in his discussions on Buddhism because he would often go off on a tangent and would not let others voice their opposition to his interpretations. I was not the only person who saw this side of him and many people stopped coming to the centre. He was able to constantly recruit new members because he was a very good looking man and could be very charming and charismatic, as can all con artists. I was told that when he died there were only four people at his funeral, his next door neighbour, his former neighbour, his niece to whom he left his money and her husband. The members of the Buddhist Societies in Tasmania did not attend and neither did any of the monks. This really was very sad, he worked hard but he never really gained the control or monetary benefit he strove for.
> 
> People also join a religion to gain prestige, control, power and monetary rewards.


Obviously, you know of what you speak.


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## Designer1234

Wombatnomore said:


> I heard the plane which crashed in the field was meant for the White House.


That is what has been announced and It makes very good sense to me. Those passengers were heroes. Can you imagine what the citizens would feel having the white house and the President and family destroyed as well as the other horrors that happened


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## BrattyPatty

!


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## BrattyPatty

dp


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## Camacho

I'm back. After we finally got a ride to Brooklyn we walked in on DH's aunt as she and the other patients were eating their dinner. The ones closes to Aunt on each side moved a little bit so DH and I could sit next to his aunt, and they shared bits of their dinner with us until staff brought us dinner trays like the patients' trays. At least there was broccoli. David had been unable to reach his aunt by phone because she has not been answering her phone so he finally asked her in person if we could stay overnight in her apartment and she said "no" so I called another cousin in NYC and he found us a reasonable hotel nearby and even called it on our behalf, so we got a car service to take us there, and got a full eight hours of sleep at quite a reasonable rate, and an offer from my cousin to put up DH overnight when he comes to town alone to visit his aunt, and I think we all agree that my next trip to New York City needs to be longer. I had a wonderful delightful time. I love Poor Purl and SQM and my cousin has become a really nice person that my DH would like to know better, which is something he never said the times he met her years ago. When she was in her Ayn Rand phase over forty years ago she and I both felt that we had very little in common with each other except for a set of grandparents. I am so glad she is so much nicer a human being now. And we got to share some very similar and delightful memories of our Grandma yesterday, too. Nobody seems to remember Grandma in quite the way my cousin Cathryn and I do. 
Lunch at the Thai restaurant on Thursday was great, and when we asked Poor Purl for a restaurant recommendation this morning she did not steer us wrong. David and I had lunch at a Greek restaurant across the street from Port Authority and enjoyed that meal, too, and it was also very reasonably priced. We were on time for the bus, which was on time. Our son met us at the bus station in Boston, and we stopped at Whole Foods Market for dinner on the way home. David has fallen asleep with his clothes on. I am still a little wired, as I got a call from our daughter as I was just beginning to unpack, and before she had hung up, I got a call for help from a different individual. So I have just now finished unpacking. I would love to go to New York again soon. How about in a few more months, and this time for more time than going down one day and coming home the next? We are moving to Maine in five months so our trips will have to be longer. The bus rides will be twice as long after we move. DH's aunt was very happy to see both of us, and squeezed my hand a lot. This is the most pleasant she has ever been to me. She did not sit there and tell me that I hate her, as she always had in the past. I'm impressed.


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## SQM

Hi Camacho.Your family was delightful and quite interesting. I am glad all turned out even tho you seem to have done a lot of schlepping. Next visit try Airb&B for a reasonable place to stay.


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## Poor Purl

BrattyPatty said:


> When I come I will take lots of pics. It looks like I will be in NY for 3 days and at the Jersey Shore for 3 days.


Sounds like a real vacation, which I'm sure you'll need after the wedding.


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## BrattyPatty

Was I mistaken in thinking that the "State of the Union Address" was tonight?


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## Poor Purl

Camacho said:


> I'm back. After we finally got a ride to Brooklyn we walked in on DH's aunt as she and the other patients were eating their dinner. The ones closes to Aunt on each side moved a little bit so DH and I could sit next to his aunt, and they shared bits of their dinner with us until staff brought us dinner trays like the patients' trays. At least there was broccoli. David had been unable to reach his aunt by phone because she has not been answering her phone so he finally asked her in person if we could stay overnight in her apartment and she said "no" so I called another cousin in NYC and he found us a reasonable hotel nearby and even called it on our behalf, so we got a car service to take us there, and got a full eight hours of sleep at quite a reasonable rate, and an offer from my cousin to put up DH overnight when he comes to town alone to visit his aunt, and I think we all agree that my next trip to New York City needs to be longer. I had a wonderful delightful time. I love Poor Purl and SQM and my cousin has become a really nice person that my DH would like to know better, which is something he never said the times he met her years ago. When she was in her Ayn Rand phase over forty years ago she and I both felt that we had very little in common with each other except for a set of grandparents. I am so glad she is so much nicer a human being now. And we got to share some very similar and delightful memories of our Grandma yesterday, too. Nobody seems to remember Grandma in quite the way my cousin Cathryn and I do.
> Lunch at the Thai restaurant on Thursday was great, and when we asked Poor Purl for a restaurant recommendation this morning she did not steer us wrong. David and I had lunch at a Greek restaurant across the street from Port Authority and enjoyed that meal, too, and it was also very reasonably priced. We were on time for the bus, which was on time. Our son met us at the bus station in Boston, and we stopped at Whole Foods Market for dinner on the way home. David has fallen asleep with his clothes on. I am still a little wired, as I got a call from our daughter as I was just beginning to unpack, and before she had hung up, I got a call for help from a different individual. So I have just now finished unpacking. I would love to go to New York again soon. How about in a few more months, and this time for more time than going down one day and coming home the next? We are moving to Maine in five months so our trips will have to be longer. The bus rides will be twice as long after we move. DH's aunt was very happy to see both of us, and squeezed my hand a lot. This is the most pleasant she has ever been to me. She did not sit there and tell me that I hate her, as she always had in the past. I'm impressed.


That cousin that we met on Thursday had an Ayn Rand phase? She sounded like just another liberal to me.

You may not have gotten to see the sights you wanted, but you certainly had a New York experience. Next time I have to train your DH in how to get and keep a cab. He's too laid back and sweet to get into that cutthroat activity.

When/if you come back, the weather will be better and the days longer, and we'll have an easier time getting around. A trip to a museum or botanical gardens will be possible. It was so very good to meet you and DH and cousin. It was like being with friends I've never met. Get some rest now.


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## DGreen

BrattyPatty said:


> Was I mistaken in thinking that the "State of the Union Address" was tonight?


January 20th. You didn't miss it.


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## DGreen

tamarque said:


> When you have the Italian Prime Minister fessing up publicly to the conspiracy of many nations to make 911 happen, ....


He says that he had info from the intelligence services of America, but he did not. He was no longer President of Italy when 9/11 happened. In fact, Cossiga came close to being impeached as President of Italy. He has a reputation as a whack job in Italy. Lately, he has been trying to get a region in Italy to secede. And, like many Europeans, he is a rabid anti-semite.

You really should pick better "sources."


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## SQM

Bright Green - are you going head to head with Tamarque today? If so I want to be this thread's official bookie and will happily take bets on who will be the winner by tonight.

As per usual, thanks for mentioning the horrible anti-semitism that is happening throughout Europe.

Do the Fundeeees care about the anti-semitic wave in Europe or are they only focused on Israel?


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