# Feeling deceived



## Cheryllum (Mar 26, 2011)

I saw a beautiful pattern for a little girl's cardigan It was $5.00 and paid and it was sent to me. I felt deceived. Someone had bought a magazine and cut the pattern out of the magazine and was selling each one in the magazine for $5.00. Am I immoral? this sickened me to the extent people go to get money. Maybe I am old fashion but this really irked me. Am I wrong in my thinking?


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## m2hvnfn (Nov 14, 2011)

Absolutely not wrong in your thinking. This is also an illegal practice. You can 'lend' your magazine to someone, but you can't sell any patterns from it. 

You need to 'demand' a refund ... if they refuse I would let them know that you will be turning them in for illegal activity. Can you let us know who and where you purchased it from so none of us fall into this trap also? Thanks and good luck ... keep us posted.


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## alese (May 16, 2012)

that's sort of illegal, i think. not sure. in any event i agree with you - totally disgusting. at least you got the pattern that you liked. maybe report her to the magazine???


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## cindye6556 (Apr 6, 2011)

alese said:


> that's sort of illegal, i think. not sure. in any event i agree with you - totally disgusting. at least you got the pattern that you liked. maybe report her to the magazine???


There is nothing "sort of illegal" about it. It is out and out theft, and infringement of copyright law. She needs to be reported to the magazine along with the website from where the purchase was made.


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## pamela Lehmann (Jan 24, 2011)

If you went through eBay or something similar, you should report it to them. They won't let that practice continue.


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## LindaH (Feb 1, 2011)

Absolutely not! That is so unethical! If you had the name of the magazine, I would write to them or call them to let them know what this person is doing. I think it may even be copyright infringement, and this person may be breaking some law. For me, I would see no other option than to do this.


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## User5935 (Feb 9, 2011)

m2hvnfn said:


> Absolutely not wrong in your thinking. This is also an illegal practice. You can 'lend' your magazine to someone, but you can't sell any patterns from it.
> 
> You need to 'demand' a refund ... if they refuse I would let them know that you will be turning them in for illegal activity. Can you let us know who and where you purchased it from so none of us fall into this trap also? Thanks and good luck ... keep us posted.


Yes let us know so we can not fall into the same situation, but also strive to add to reports about her.


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## tvarnas (Apr 18, 2013)

I agree with all comments!! I would feel deceived too.


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## kikifields (Jul 3, 2011)

Demand your money back, report her to whatever site she sold you the pattern from, let the magazine know she is selling - illegally - copyrighted material.
That was theft.


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## CaroleD53 (Aug 7, 2012)

On e bay recently, I saw a current copy of a magazine chopped up and the patterns being sold individually. I could not believe someone would do this the day the magazine hit the shelves.


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## CaroleD53 (Aug 7, 2012)

pamela Lehmann said:


> If you went through eBay or something similar, you should report it to them. They won't let that practice continue.


Unfortunately they seem to turn a blind eye going by the number of photocopied patterns I see there.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

this has been a subject on other threads here, and if you look in the classifieds here you will find that there are listings here for patterns cut from magazines as well and the argument was that it is quite legal to do that.


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## CaroleD53 (Aug 7, 2012)

Perhaps the argument is that you can sell on a whole magazine so why not part of it , as long as it is the original and not a copy ? 
Still disappointing though if you expect a "real" pattern.


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## junebjh (Jun 9, 2012)

I have bought several of these on eBay and some were just photo copies from the magazine article. I thought it was OK because they are few years old. Am I wrong?


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

photocopies are wrong, pages from magazines are okay


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## Novasea (Nov 10, 2012)

They should have sold you the whole magazine...then it would have been legal.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

It's NOT illegal. I'm a copyrighted pattern designer. It would be illegal if the person made copies of the patterns in the magazine and sold those but selling the magazine in whole or in part is not copyright infringement.

When you purchase a magazine, book or individual pattern you can loan it, resell it (in whole or in part), give it away, or burn it in your fireplace. Duplicating the material, in any form, and distributing the duplications (for sale or for free) is another story though. 

You may feel deceived but did the seller simply state that it was a "pattern for sale"? If so, they really didn't deceive you. 

What were the "terms of sale"? Does the seller accept returned merchandise?

You can demand a refund though I'm sure the seller clearly spelled out the terms of sale in the ad. I gather this was Ebay or some other on line site.

What this seller is doing, like many others, is to capitalize on selling items or parts of items that they have purchased. They may have purchased them new or they could have come across the magazines in a second hand store. They may have even had the magazines given to them.

I do agree that $5.00 for a pattern, cut from a magazine, is a pretty steep price. 

On the other hand the seller is just trying to make a living, a few dollars at a time. They aren't doing anything illegal.

Most on line selling sites have a function for asking questions of the seller. In the future you may want to utilize that type option to inquire if the pattern was cut from a magazine.


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## mirl56 (Dec 20, 2011)

I agree with Courier - not illegal. Unless she is selling copies from a magazine - that is definitely illegal. But to sell the original - that is OK.

Unethical - definitely yes.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I'm not sure unethical is the right term either. There are people doing this who fully disclose that the pattern(s) are cut from a magazine and will even state what magazine and what issue. 

We live in a time where many have lost their jobs, been forced to take lower paying jobs or part time jobs. I'm not going to fault someone for trying to replace lost income or even just trying to make ends meet. On line selling has become the new norm. Sites like Ebay and Etsy offer people a way to sell items (new, used, vintage or hand crafted) and reach a larger base of customers.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Hope you do take action on this. So many people are being ripped off in this scheme and probably have no idea what to do.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

There is no action to take, nothing illegal was done.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

You're absolutely right! Nothing is illegal in this deal; Thanks for the 'heads up.'


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

What I see here is a seller that omitted some information and a buyer that made an assumption.

Whenever buying from sites like Ebay or Etsy, ask questions, it's free and sellers do respond. Check the terms of sale very carefully too. I purchase items frequently from these sites (knitting and non knitting) and only once was disappointed, that was my own fault for not asking a simple question, though the seller did offer me a full refund.


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## sanditoes48 (Feb 6, 2013)

wow - someone has "chutzpah" to do something like that. I would definitely feel deceived and cheated!


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## kiwiannie (Jul 30, 2011)

No you are not,the person you brought it from is breaching copyrights laws and should be reported for doing it. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


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## lexiemae (Aug 14, 2013)

CaroleD53 said:


> On e bay recently, I saw a current copy of a magazine chopped up and the patterns being sold individually. I could not believe someone would do this the day the magazine hit the shelves.


I have sold books of patterns and reguarly see the buyers going on to scan the patterns and sell them individually, over & over again. That's VERY wrong. There are probably 1000's on ebay like this, ebay don't care, they just want the revenue fees.


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## TRINITYCRAFTSISTER (Sep 28, 2011)

let the magazine know the details as there are legal issues here. Then put it down to experience and enjoy the pattern


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## nanny R (Nov 25, 2011)

you are not wrong and I agree with you. Illegal and immoral. I would report this to the magazine at least.


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## Grannie maggie (Oct 30, 2012)

m2hvnfn said:


> Absolutely not wrong in your thinking. This is also an illegal practice. You can 'lend' your magazine to someone, but you can't sell any patterns from it.
> 
> You need to 'demand' a refund ... if they refuse I would let them know that you will be turning them in for illegal activity. Can you let us know who and where you purchased it from so none of us fall into this trap also? Thanks and good luck ... keep us posted.


Not good at all, disgusting. The person concerned should definitely be reported. Let us know how you get on.

Sending you love and best wishes hoping it will cheer you up a little.

:wink:


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## rujam (Aug 19, 2011)

That's despicable.


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## mac.worrall (Jun 24, 2011)

I don't see anything wrong in this really-the price was much too steep but you did get the pattern.What was done was not illegal,whatever anyone else says.


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## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

You can do what you like with the orginal. Have you ever sold or bought a second hand book? It is exactly the same. While I may not be happy what is the difference between paying $5 for a pattern leaflet and an orginal pattern from a magazine? You still get a legal pattern for the same price.

However those who are selling photocopies are going against copyright- and should be reported.


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## Jenny.Wren (Nov 28, 2011)

Very confusing. Are these patterns from new or old magazines?


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## lexiemae (Aug 14, 2013)

Jenny.Wren said:


> Very confusing. Are these patterns from new or old magazines?


Both I would say. The 'vintage' one's will be out of copyright but there are still 1000's which are still protected. You would think the 'big' Companies. Sirdar, Patons etc would do a test case and prosecute someone


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## nitcronut (Aug 9, 2011)

I hope their scissors break!!!!!


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## Kathymacau (Jan 8, 2013)

People also sell pattern books that companies make available free of charge, not the originals that would be ok, but PDF's on CDs .


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## Moondancermel (Nov 18, 2012)

Cheryllum said:


> I saw a beautiful pattern for a little girl's cardigan It was $5.00 and paid and it was sent to me. I felt deceived. Someone had bought a magazine and cut the pattern out of the magazine and was selling each one in the magazine for $5.00. Am I immoral? this sickened me to the extent people go to get money. Maybe I am old fashion but this really irked me. Am I wrong in my thinking?


You are totally right in this. I suppose that as long as they do not copy the patterns they are not breaking the law. I would however comment on their website or place of feedback so others would know. I would also have said who this person was here so people would know and be warned to be careful. :?


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## Valanteen (Sep 28, 2011)

I have bought many patterns that were torn out of magazines so I thought it was normal. Problem is you don't know te pattern was torn from a magazine until you get it.


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## Valanteen (Sep 28, 2011)

Seen that, too.


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## Toyknitter (Feb 5, 2011)

This may not be illegal, but I would feel cheated and would complain or leave a bad review if that was possible.


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## ladydi5740 (May 29, 2012)

I'm not sure if what she did is illegal with regard to the copyright (probably not), but if it IS, then it is actually a multifaceted crime. I believe when the US Postal Service is involved (by virtue of using the mail to facilitate an illegal transaction) it becomes a federal crime, i.e., mail fraud. So it becomes a much bigger issue than just the little $5 sale. Sadly, there's so much of this nickel-and-dime kind of thing going on these days that it's not worth the aggravation or certainly not the cost to try to do anything about it. And in your case, as someone already pointed out, at least you got a pattern you love. You can turn a frustrating experience into something of beauty.


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## jonibee (Nov 3, 2011)

Cheryllum said:


> I saw a beautiful pattern for a little girl's cardigan It was $5.00 and paid and it was sent to me. I felt deceived. Someone had bought a magazine and cut the pattern out of the magazine and was selling each one in the magazine for $5.00. Am I immoral? this sickened me to the extent people go to get money. Maybe I am old fashion but this really irked me. Am I wrong in my thinking?


If you can contact this person relay that this is an illegal practice and unless you get a refund back you will contact the Better Business Bureau in her state with her name and what she sent to you or if you know the magazine tell her you will contact them..Because of the way she is doing business I would give her a chance to redeem herself that she may not know she is breaking the law..then if she doesn't contact you within a certain time limit contact the above. ..Can you use the pattern..that was the whole point of the matter..you wanted it and you got it..you were willing to pay the price but felt cheated when what you received wasn't to your expectation..the ball is in your court..live and learn not all go by the same rules ...make your wanted item...


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## BailaC (Sep 25, 2013)

While it feels wrong, it is not a copyright violation. Copyright protects against copying. If she did not make a copy, but merely sold her lawfully made copy (that is, some pages from a magazine she bought), she had the right to do so, in the same way she could sell you the whole magazine. 
On the other hand, if she sold you (or gave you, for that matter) a copy of the pattern she made, that would have been an infringement. FYI, I'm a retired intellectual proprty lawyer.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

I think there may be shades of grey here. Some magazines and patterns will have clear dictates on sharing information. I have no problem sharing a pattern in a magazine, for example. Selling someone else's pattern is another story of dubious ethics and legality. Unless it is their own pattern


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## mombr4 (Apr 21, 2011)

m2hvnfn said:


> Absolutely not wrong in your thinking. This is also an illegal practice. You can 'lend' your magazine to someone, but you can't sell any patterns from it.
> 
> You need to 'demand' a refund ... if they refuse I would let them know that you will be turning them in for illegal activity. Can you let us know who and where you purchased it from so none of us fall into this trap also? Thanks and good luck ... keep us posted.


Where did you buy the pattern.

There were several on the forum doing exactly that, tearing patterns out of magazines and posting them for sale. There was a lot in question, when in the post it said torn out of magazine, no tears, writing.

There was many comments, many buying the patterns from more then the one person posting them in the classified (there were a few posting patterns this way) and in the comments posted people claimed that this was legal.

I don't remember but I think the topics were just
patterns for sale in the classified.


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## Granny8 (Mar 23, 2011)

That is just WRONG!!!


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

m2hvnfn said:


> Absolutely not wrong in your thinking. This is also an illegal practice. You can 'lend' your magazine to someone, but you can't sell any patterns from it.
> 
> You need to 'demand' a refund ... if they refuse I would let them know that you will be turning them in for illegal activity. Can you let us know who and where you purchased it from so none of us fall into this trap also? Thanks and good luck ... keep us posted.


The Supreme Court of the United States recently made a ruling on copyright and "first use" which was discussed in another recent thread in this forum. It is not illegal to re-sell all or part of a magazine. Before making assumptions and speaking in a negative manner about someone, get the correct information. It isn't nice to wield a campaign against someone when you don't know how the pattern was removed in the first place, and by making incorrect statements about what is and is not illegal.

I recently posted a link to "Know Your Rights Copyright 101 for Knitters" for a .pdf authored by Interweave Press:

http://www.knittingdaily.com/media/p/92593.aspx


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## obxamom (Apr 21, 2013)

You could have purchased the magazine for that price ...I would report her that isn't ethical at all....if I wrote that pattern I would be honking mad


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## m2hvnfn (Nov 14, 2011)

wyldwmn said:


> The Supreme Court of the United States recently made a ruling on copyright and "first use" which was discussed in another recent thread in this forum. It is not illegal to re-sell all or part of a magazine. Before making assumptions and speaking in a negative manner about someone, get the correct information. It isn't nice to wield a campaign against someone when you don't know how the pattern was removed in the first place, and by making incorrect statements about what is and is not illegal.
> 
> I recently posted a link to "Know Your Rights Copyright 101 for Knitters" for a .pdf authored by Interweave Press:
> 
> http://www.knittingdaily.com/media/p/92593.aspx


And you should note that before picking on one person who commented on this, you should see that I'm not the only one who made this comment. I for one, wouldn't want to purchase from this person and would like to know who it is, as others have also expressed.


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## m2hvnfn (Nov 14, 2011)

obxamom said:


> You could have purchased the magazine for that price ...I would report her that isn't ethical at all....if I wrote that pattern I would be honking mad


Agreed!


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## blanchebianca (May 12, 2013)

No, you're not wrong. But the issue is not so much that you were deceived but that someone else had their creativity stolen. Someone else did the work to create those original patterns and their ideas were stolen.


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## Normagw (Mar 4, 2012)

You got the pattern you paid for. The magaziine can be sold so why not anything in it. You were just sent something you were not expecting.


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## bagibird (Sep 30, 2012)

I don't believe the seller has done anything illegal, but I'm no expert! I know there are hundreds of patterns being sold on various outlets which are taken from magazines. Most of the time, that is clearly stated, but not always. I understood that, if it was the original and NOT a copy, it was OK to sell. If I bought a magazine or book and no longer wanted it, I would feel perfectly entitled to sell it, or part of it.

If I wanted a particular pattern and was prepared to pay a specific price for it, I don't think I'd feel cheated if I received the original pattern, albeit an extract from a magazine. What I got was what I wanted at a price I was happy to pay, so it wouldn't be a problem for me.


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## SouthernGirl (Dec 28, 2011)

I don't know if it' illegal or not.


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## Justme (May 11, 2011)

I to heartly agree with you. Please get a refund or report.


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

bagibird said:


> I don't believe the seller has done anything illegal, but I'm no expert! I know there are hundreds of patterns being sold on various outlets which are taken from magazines. Most of the time, that is clearly stated, but not always. I understood that, if it was the original and NOT a copy, it was OK to sell. If I bought a magazine or book and no longer wanted it, I would feel perfectly entitled to sell it, or part of it.
> 
> If I wanted a particular pattern and was prepared to pay a specific price for it, I don't think I'd feel cheated if I received the original pattern, albeit an extract from a magazine. What I got was what I wanted at a price I was happy to pay, so it wouldn't be a problem for me.


What is not being considered by those who are speaking ill of the seller, is that it is to a publisher's advantage to have their publications remain in the public market place instead of being thown in the landfill. As well, for designers it is to their advantage to have their published patterns remain in the public marketplace rather than thrown away. Having the magazine's name out there, or the designer's name, creates interest in their products. I would agree that it would be wise for any seller to clearly state that a particular pattern has been removed from a magazine, book, or other publication, however it is also the responsibility of the buyer to ask the right questions.

As I have commented previously, not everyone who sells a pattern removed from a publication is the person who has done that removal. Sometimes the seller is a person who has rescued patterns from being thrown into the landfill, or has been given the patterns and prefers to see that they get to those who would cherish and use them, than to throw them away. As well, there are people who like one pattern in a magazine, and not the rest of the magazine. It's up to each buyer, again, to decide if what they are purchasing is worth the price.


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## Debi3735 (Nov 23, 2012)

I sell on Ebay please report this so they can pull the auction, you are not allowed to do this on ebay


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## mac.worrall (Jun 24, 2011)

bagibird said:


> I don't believe the seller has done anything illegal, but I'm no expert! I know there are hundreds of patterns being sold on various outlets which are taken from magazines. Most of the time, that is clearly stated, but not always. I understood that, if it was the original and NOT a copy, it was OK to sell. If I bought a magazine or book and no longer wanted it, I would feel perfectly entitled to sell it, or part of it.
> 
> If I wanted a particular pattern and was prepared to pay a specific price for it, I don't think I'd feel cheated if I received the original pattern, albeit an extract from a magazine. What I got was what I wanted at a price I was happy to pay, so it wouldn't be a problem for me.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## HamptonTowers (Sep 30, 2013)

There are eBay sellers making a fortune out of selling photocopies of patterns and eBay do nothing about it. As a designer myself it really irks me as I know how much work goes into designing a pattern. 
A cutout from a magazine is ok as long as that's what it says in the description but mass photocopies is bang out of order. I'd report it for what it's worth, one seller has already been reported loads of times but you can only breach beats policies so many times and then they suspend your account, I worked out from feedback that one seller in particular is making about £3000 a month, that's probably far far more than the designers make out of a pattern


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## Lynnhelen (Aug 5, 2013)

nitcronut said:


> I hope their scissors break!!!!!


Too funny!


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

It is illegal!!! :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


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## Munchn (Mar 3, 2013)

I have not heard of this tactic before. What nerve!


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

Geez, Louise! Does anybody actually bother reading the preceding posts before adding her two-cents worth?

Courier & Wyldwmn said all that needs to be said.


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## Torticollus (Dec 3, 2011)

The same thing happened to me. I paid $6.99 for one pattern of a kid's sailboat sweater only to find the entire book, including that same pattern, at my local thrift shop for $2.50.


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## soneka (Feb 8, 2011)

very unethical on her part.


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## Donnathomp (May 5, 2012)

tamarque said:


> I think there may be shades of grey here. Some magazines and patterns will have clear dictates on sharing information. I have no problem sharing a pattern in a magazine, for example. Selling someone else's pattern is another story of dubious ethics and legality. Unless it is their own pattern


I agree here. Is this, in fact, the person's own pattern?


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## HamptonTowers (Sep 30, 2013)

Agreed


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## HamptonTowers (Sep 30, 2013)

Absolutely agree that designers ideas are stolen.


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## disgo (Mar 2, 2013)

Your key word "deceived" sums it up but you're the buyer--just don't buy from them again! The web is no different than shopping on the street--if it looks suspicious it usually is. Legality is for others to decide and usually ends up like Solomon with the child to tear in two. It is done on Amazon and all sorts of sites that many of you have referred to--if you can get enough people complaining they might just pull the site/auction but the seller can go on Craig's or elsewhere. It amazes me how they can even use copyrighted photos in their description but I'm one that can't even use my legal name because it has been copyrighted!!!

Frustrating is the word you probably meant. I did message the seller on eBay and got a curt response "Its in its original box" and since I still wanted the item when it came yesterday it was in the original box (taped shut)!!! Even worse was the fact the box still had the original shipping label on it--it was the company that I had ordered it from months ago that finally credited me back since it was "no longer available". Worse was I spent $20 more than the original order ($60 more than the original retail price 10 years ago) but its mine now. Gave no negative feedback but have the seller on my don't buy from again list and kept the box to remind me of the company (even though it probably wasn't their fault) so I will not shop from them again either.

Try and enjoy your pattern like I do my item and remember the adage "burnt once...."



courier770 said:


> It's NOT illegal. I'm a copyrighted pattern designer.
> 
> Most on line selling sites have a function for asking questions of the seller. In the future you may want to utilize that type option to inquire if the pattern was cut from a magazine.


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## Mersea (Sep 13, 2013)

Report her. Once I was about to order a set of DVD's from a guy on EBAY and decided to ask some questions. I asked him if they were the original DVD's or copies. He said he has the original DVD's and he copies them and sells them (not too smart for a crook!). I reported him and he was yanked off EBAY. I hope they prosecuted the man because that is what he did with all his DVD's and he had bookoos of them! Report, report, report!


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## rhpoway (Feb 15, 2011)

Many books and magazines are no longer in print and cannot be purchased. This poses a problem if we want a pattern in them. It would be a service is the publisher had a website that allowed us to purchase patterns that were out of print, but they don't, so if someone want to copy and sell, what is the harm?


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## nannee (Mar 12, 2011)

nitcronut said:


> I hope their scissors break!!!!!


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## gmajulie01 (Jun 5, 2013)

This is Wrong!! It is too bad that this is what some individuals will go to make a quick buck! This should be reported and hope that it is followed through on!! Thanks for making us aware!


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## laceandbits (Jun 23, 2011)

Sorry to disagree, but in the UK at least it's not an infringement of copyright so long as she is selling original pages, anymore than it's an infringement of copyright for her to sell a second hand book or magazine. It is immoral perhaps and an expensive lesson to you, but this is where buyer beware kicks in. 

Did you think you were buying a second hand leaflet? Why would this have been OK but a second hand page isn't. 

What would infringe copyright would be for her to take multiple photocopies of the pages and sell them.


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## sheila kay (Jan 2, 2013)

Find out which mag. she got the pattern from and then notify them what she/he is doing this is fraud in every sense of the word

Sheila


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## Dowager (Jun 7, 2011)

chickkie said:


> photocopies are wrong, pages from magazines are okay


Selling pages from magazines is NOT o.k. either! It still violates copyright law!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

laceandbits, you are correct! We are now on page 5 of comments and I see quite a bit of misunderstanding regarding copyright law in these 5 pages.

It's not illegal, it isn't unethical either and it's not fraud. If the seller stated that they had a pattern for sale that's exactly what they were selling. The buyer wanted to purchase that pattern. What did not take place was a dialogue about the source of the pattern.


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## gq16jw (Jul 9, 2013)

Once I aid $5.00 for a pattern for a baby blanket because I thought there was something special about the stitch. I really felt ripped off when it turned out to be your standard shell crochet stitch and the dimensions proposed were not possible with the number of beginning chain stitches. Then of course they had the gall to request that no one make them for profit but only for personal use, not to copy the pattern without permission yada, yada, yada. I didn't quibble about getting my money back because there are so many other great things to spend time one. It's one of those live and learn lessons I guess.


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## bagibird (Sep 30, 2012)

I don't understand how the designer's idea has been stolen. The designer was presumably paid for his/her work when it was published in the magazine. It wouldn't therefore affect the designer in any way, as far as I can see. Neither has the publisher lost anything - they sold their magazine. The only problem I can see is if the seller provided a photocopy, not the original. The first post says that the item was a pattern consisting of pages taken from a magazine, so that doesn't arise. I may be missing something, but I don't see the difference between buying a used copy of a magazine and buying part of a magazine??? Just my opinion....


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## BarbaraNixon (Oct 4, 2013)

CaroleD53 said:


> Unfortunately they seem to turn a blind eye going by the number of photocopied patterns I see there.


I complained that a pc game I bought was an obvious copy, being on the seller's 'own label'. He said he could copy because of an obscure US copyright ruling (which doesn't apply to games).

PayPal (ie Ebay) said I could have my money back but I had to return the discs, by registered post at my own expense. They took no action, as he continued to advertise for weeks afterwards.


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## RoxyCatlady (Mar 22, 2011)

It is not illegal to sell a used magazine; it is not illegal to tear out pages from a magazine and sell them individually. However, is it "moral" or "ethical"? That is in the eye of the beholder. I couldn't do it - I pay an average of $7 for a magazine at the store - so there is no way I could possibly look at myself in the mirror if I were to sell a single pattern page or pages from it for $5. 

I could, though, part with the whole magazine at a yard sale for maybe 50 cents... (If I were going to part with one - I keep them around for reference, and even buy them from yard sales or thrift stores for 50 cents  )


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## tenaj (Feb 22, 2011)

I just posted this under New Topic

U.S. copyright law, which includes the first sale doctrine. The first sale doctrine says that once you purchase a book or other copyrighted work, you can dispose of it as you please. YouIstill cant make copies or make a derivative workthose would still be copyright infringementsbut you are free to sell it, lend it, rent it, burn it or give it away. Its your book.

I would not have been able to make so many of the lovely patterns I made if not for the secondary market


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## MsP11 (Jan 2, 2013)

Maybe a way to get around the ethical and illegal sides of this is to give credit for where the pattern originated. Just like kids in school have to cite sources on papers, adults should be doing the same. Otherwise, the person selling the patterns should be reported to the attorney general's office in that state.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I've given more thought to the price. Was postage included? Was it folded up and placed in a business sized envelope or was it sent in a 9" x 12" manilla envelope? The cost of mailing the pattern in a manilla envelope would easily cost $2.00 (including the price of t he envelope). So that brings the actual cost of the pattern down to about $3.00.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

MsP11 said:


> Maybe a way to get around the ethical and illegal sides of this is to give credit for where the pattern originated. Just like kids in school have to cite sources on papers, adults should be doing the same. Otherwise, the person selling the patterns should be reported to the attorney general's office in that state.


Please research US copyright law, nothing illegal is being done here and there is nothing to report.


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## rkr (Aug 15, 2012)

BailaC: "While it feels wrong, it is not a copyright violation. Copyright protects against copying. If she did not make a copy, but merely sold her lawfully made copy (that is, some pages from a magazine she bought), she had the right to do so, in the same way she could sell you the whole magazine. 
On the other hand, if she sold you (or gave you, for that matter) a copy of the pattern she made, that would have been an infringement. FYI, I'm a retired intellectual proprty lawyer."

Courier770 and wyldwmn, as well: all voices of reason and not reactionary. Interweave Press's PDF document (a free download) "Know Your Rights Copyright 101 for Knitters" for a .pdf authored by Interweave Press
:http://www.knittingdaily.com/media/p/92593.aspx
should be kept at hand for all of us. Bottom of Pg 5: "Physical products are always transferable from consumer to consumer in any portion."
THX, wyldwmn!

Additionally, tenaj - agreed. The US Patent & Trademark Office used to call this the Garage Sale Effect, now it's The eBay® Effect: reselling an original item. The owner may dispose of it in any manner they wish, just not retain it in any form in their possession, electronically/print form or any other type of copy, then 'dispose' of the original or make copies from that original one to dispense.


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## canuckle49 (Sep 24, 2012)

Moe C said:


> Geez, Louise! Does anybody actually bother reading the preceding posts before adding her two-cents worth?
> 
> Courier & Wyldwmn said all that needs to be said.


I was thinking exactly the same thing !
I guess the answer to your question would be NO !


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

People not reading posts before they jump in, is pretty common here. When it comes to the subject of copyright, it's always worse.

There's the problem of the average citizen not knowing what copyright law covers and then there are those who think the law can be interpreted any way they choose. 

Like this little myth that someone stated earlier about designers saying you cannot use their pattern for retail/commercial purposes. It's not t he designer, it's the LAW. Copyright automatically protects the holder from having their intelligent property used for the financial gain of another. It covers all forms of copyrighted material equally. You CANNOT rerecord a copyrighted song by say Michael Jackson and sell the recordings...unless you want the entire Jackson family suing you.


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## valj46 (Jul 25, 2011)

If you had it from e.bay & paid by paypal report it ,to me its no different than buying pirate DVD's .


Cheryllum said:


> I saw a beautiful pattern for a little girl's cardigan It was $5.00 and paid and it was sent to me. I felt deceived. Someone had bought a magazine and cut the pattern out of the magazine and was selling each one in the magazine for $5.00. Am I immoral? this sickened me to the extent people go to get money. Maybe I am old fashion but this really irked me. Am I wrong in my thinking?


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## valj46 (Jul 25, 2011)

I think it depends what country you live in.


courier770 said:


> There is no action to take, nothing illegal was done.


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## gina (Jan 18, 2011)

This practice is not illegal, immoral, wrong, or despicable.

It would be very wrong to try to make legal trouble for the seller. It's her magazine and she is not infringing on anyone's copyright. Look at that word. COPYright. 

You may not copy the pattern, but there is nothing wrong with selling the original copy.

You may think you're doing the right thing to report it, but in fact you would be causing a lot of trouble to an innocent person.


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## Karena (Jul 3, 2011)

It happens to all of us now and then. What goes around comes around. Sadly that person must need the money. Take the high ground and say to yourself, glad I am not in the position. 
K


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

courier770 said:


> People not reading posts before they jump in, is pretty common here.


So I've noticed. It drives me nuts.

BTW, tenaj's new topic is here:http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-207171-1.html


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

Moe C said:


> Geez, Louise! Does anybody actually bother reading the preceding posts before adding her two-cents worth?
> 
> Courier & Wyldwmn said all that needs to be said.


'No'


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## rasputin (Apr 21, 2013)

Cheryllum said:


> I saw a beautiful pattern for a little girl's cardigan It was $5.00 and paid and it was sent to me. I felt deceived. Someone had bought a magazine and cut the pattern out of the magazine and was selling each one in the magazine for $5.00. Am I immoral? this sickened me to the extent people go to get money. Maybe I am old fashion but this really irked me. Am I wrong in my thinking?


That's awful! and No you are not wrong by any means thinking that.


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## Knitophile (Oct 22, 2012)

courier770 said:


> It's NOT illegal. I'm a copyrighted pattern designer. It would be illegal if the person made copies of the patterns in the magazine and sold those but selling the magazine in whole or in part is not copyright infringement.
> 
> When you purchase a magazine, book or individual pattern you can loan it, resell it (in whole or in part), give it away, or burn it in your fireplace. Duplicating the material, in any form, and distributing the duplications (for sale or for free) is another story though.
> 
> ...


If one considers all the patterns for sale on Ravelry, $5 a pattern seems to be about the going rate. Almost everytime I look at a shawl pattern that is for sale on Ravelry, the price turns out to be $6. I find that quite steep. Often the stitch design is simply one taken from one of Barbara Walker's Treasuries combined with a standard shaping. Once the designer has written the instructions for the standard shaping then all she needs to do is choose a series of stitch designs from one of the Treasuries in order to come up with a series of shawl designs, each one for which the standard price is $6. I am not talking about all designers, there are some with some really unique designs. However, these are just as likely to be those who are offering their patterns for free as those who are charging the standard $6 even if the design is the first one they have ever created.


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## Savta5 (Mar 6, 2011)

You need to report this person to KP as well as demand a refund.


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## Knitophile (Oct 22, 2012)

rkr said:


> BailaC: "While it feels wrong, it is not a copyright violation. Copyright protects against copying. If she did not make a copy, but merely sold her lawfully made copy (that is, some pages from a magazine she bought), she had the right to do so, in the same way she could sell you the whole magazine.
> On the other hand, if she sold you (or gave you, for that matter) a copy of the pattern she made, that would have been an infringement. FYI, I'm a retired intellectual proprty lawyer."
> 
> Courier770 and wyldwmn, as well: all voices of reason and not reactionary. Interweave Press's PDF document (a free download) "Know Your Rights Copyright 101 for Knitters" for a .pdf authored by Interweave Press
> ...


-except if they had contractually agreed not to sell the original item. However, the cause of action would then be breach of contract as opposed to copyright infringement. Granted, this would not apply when one purchases a magazine over the counter or through a standard subscription.


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## sherimorphis (Oct 11, 2011)

Cheryllum said:


> I saw a beautiful pattern for a little girl's cardigan It was $5.00 and paid and it was sent to me. I felt deceived. Someone had bought a magazine and cut the pattern out of the magazine and was selling each one in the magazine for $5.00. Am I immoral? this sickened me to the extent people go to get money. Maybe I am old fashion but this really irked me. Am I wrong in my thinking?


.....................................................
No I felt the same way. Thought I was getting an original pamphlet for an old bear pattern and when I received it, it was a copy. I got mine thru eBay so I guess I could complain there about it.


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## gq16jw (Jul 9, 2013)

courier770 said:


> I've given more thought to the price. Was postage included? Was it folded up and placed in a business sized envelope or was it sent in a 9" x 12" manilla envelope? The cost of mailing the pattern in a manilla envelope would easily cost $2.00 (including the price of t he envelope). So that brings the actual cost of the pattern down to about $3.00.


If you were referring to my $5.00 pattern, it was one of those in which you pay the money and they send you a downloadable copy of the pattern.


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## Nicholas81 (Feb 17, 2011)

If you purchased it from someone on this forum - you need to send that name and info to the Administrator(s) -- they can be removed from the users.

Definitely nothing wrong in your thinking -- that is both immoral and illegal.

Smile - we love you

Shelia
NC


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Nicholas81, if you had read through this entire thread and utilized the links provided you'd see t hat nothing is illegal about this.


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## gma11331 (Oct 18, 2011)

You are not "immoral," but perhaps the person selling the pattern is. I don't know the law in this matter.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

gma11331, nothing illegal or immoral was done here. Go back and read all of the replies and utilize the links that many have provided.

Good grief I expect that someone is going to ask that the seller be tarred and feathered.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

gma11331 said:


> You are not "immoral," but perhaps the person selling the pattern is. I don't know the law in this matter.


perhaps if you don't know then why comment. There is nothing immoral about this. It happens all the time, even here on KP.

copying and selling a pattern is wrong. Taking a page from a magazine and selling it is not. I have done it too. It might have been the only pattern in the magazine that I wanted, so cut it out and kept it. Then maybe I decided I didn't want the pattern after all, so sold it stating that it was taken from a magazine.

The pattern is what was bought, and the shipping charge is a lot less for a couple of pages of paper than a whole book.

And by the way, I don't see a reply from the original poster either.


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## MrsB (Jun 3, 2011)

I believe this is a copyright violation. Maybe you should turn the person's name and address over to the magazine to pursue. However, if the pattern had been changed in some noticeably different way it may not be a copyright violation.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

MrsB...if you had taken the time to read all of the replies and utilized t he links that several people have posted you'd KNOW that there is no copyright violation here. There are now 8 pages to this topic and no one is bothering to take the time and READ what has been posted.


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## mlsolcz (Feb 16, 2012)

Totally illegal! You should let us all know the name of the pattern so none of us get caught as you did.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

mlsolcz said:


> Totally illegal! You should let us all know the name of the pattern so none of us get caught as you did.


Did you READ any of the replies. There is nothing illegal about selling a pattern cut from a magazine.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

chickkie said:


> Did you READ any of the replies. There is nothing illegal about selling a pattern cut from a magazine.


Apparently it's so much easier to jump in (and stick your foot in your mouth) instead of actually taking the time to read.

A famous line from the movie Cool Hand Luke, comes to mind: "What we have here is a failure to communicate". *shakes head*


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## azmoonbugs (Dec 2, 2011)

Cheryllum said:


> I saw a beautiful pattern for a little girl's cardigan It was $5.00 and paid and it was sent to me. I felt deceived. Someone had bought a magazine and cut the pattern out of the magazine and was selling each one in the magazine for $5.00. Am I immoral? this sickened me to the extent people go to get money. Maybe I am old fashion but this really irked me. Am I wrong in my thinking?


Sorry, but it is not illegal. Just as you buy a used book or magazine, you can sell parts of it. You cannot sell COPIES of a book or magazine.

My guess is that you did not read the offer completely before buying.


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## Pmullenix (Apr 9, 2013)

I've seen similar topics posted several times. I have copyrighted a few educational computer programs and thought this information might be helpful from http://www.copyright.gov

As a general rule, for works created after January 1, 1978, copyright protection lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years. Works created on or after January 1, 1978, are not subject to renewal registration. As to works published or registered prior to January 1, 1978, renewal registration is optional after 28 years but does provide certain legal advantages.

In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work.

If you file online, the fee is $35 per application. Generally, each work requires a separate application

Anyone found to have infringed a copyrighted work may be liable for statutory damages up to $30,000 for each work infringed and, if willful infringement is proven by the copyright owner, that amount may be increased up to $150,000 for each work infringed. In addition, an infringer of a work may also be liable for the attorney's fees incurred by the copyright owner to enforce his or her rights.

AND FROM LEGAL ADVICE SITES:

In the 90s in the USA, commercial copyright violation involving more than 10 copies and value over $2500 was made a felony.

Suppose you purchase a copy of Time magazine and find an article on the politics of Zimbabwe very interesting. You want your friend Bob to read the article. Can you just give him your magazine? Of course you can. Can Bob then pass it on to some of his friends? Sure he can. Can a library purchase just one copy and make it available to all of its readers to read. Sure, happens all the time. There may not seem much of a difference between handing out an original copy of a magazine for many people to read and copying the same for the readers. But there is a crucial difference and the difference is based on copyright law. The article in the magazine belongs to the publisher of the magazine, and only the publisher is allowed to make copies and then distribute (sell or give away as per the publishers discretion).


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

What you posted is correct but this doesn't involve copyright infringement. It's the sale of the original item cut from but not copied from a magazine. 

You can lend the original, you can sell it (in whole or part) or you can burn it in your fireplace, use it to swat flies it's yours.

I am a copyrighted pattern designer though I also have an extensive library of knitting books, booklets and patterns. I'm more than happy to lend these items to others with one condition...you may NOT duplicate anything because I strictly adhere to copyright law.

Years ago I was the victim of copyright infringement (spent over 20 years as a free lance writer). When that happened to me I filed a complaint, it cost the company that did this a lot of $$ in fines and damages they had to pay to me. It would have been cheaper for them to have paid me for my work than to steal it. 

In this case of a pattern cut from a magazine and sold, nothing illegal, immoral, unethical or fraudulent was done.

I do find it interesting that so many have given the original poster "fraudulent" information..ironic eh?


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## Pippen (Jan 30, 2013)

chickkie said:


> perhaps if you don't know then why comment. There is nothing immoral about this. It happens all the time, even here on KP.
> 
> copying and selling a pattern is wrong. Taking a page from a magazine and selling it is not. I have done it too. It might have been the only pattern in the magazine that I wanted, so cut it out and kept it. Then maybe I decided I didn't want the pattern after all, so sold it stating that it was taken from a magazine.
> 
> ...


Also keep patterns from magazines and get rid of the rest.....when I don't want the pattern anymore I'd rather give it to someone who wants it....... :-D


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## calisuzi (Apr 1, 2013)

There is nothing wrong in the way you feel, this is really unconscionable behavior and probably illegal.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I'll keep an entire magazine even if there's only a few patterns that I like in it. Every once in a while someone in the knitting groups I belong to will be looking for a pattern that appears in an issue that is no longer available.

I'll lend them the magazine with a warning to not make any copies of anything in the magazine and not to spill anything on it.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

calisuzi said:


> There is nothing wrong in the way you feel, this is really unconscionable behavior and probable illegal.


Please go back and read t his entire thread, it was established many pages ago that nothing illegal was done.


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

Don't know about you, Courier, but I'm ready to pull my hair out.

As for where the original poster has gone...she's probably got something better to do on a Saturday.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I don't care where the original poster is...it's infuriating to read page after page of people saying this sale was: illegal, immoral, unethical, deceptive and fraudulent, when in fact it was none of those. 

It's very clear that people do not know the law, have not taken the time to read the entire thread and have not bothered to utilize the links that many have taken the time to post. 

As for hair, I've been bald since page 5 or 6!


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## Murff (Nov 11, 2011)

Hope you enjoy knitting the pattern now that you know it is not illegal.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

well, since no one reads what has been written anyway, there is not much use responding to this thread any more.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

It's interesting to see how many people get their exercise by, rushing to judgement, jumping to conclusions and hurdling in, to give their 2 cents before fully reading the thread. We seem to have quite a few members who enjoy sticking their foot in their mouth. 

We're now up to page 9, let's see how long this goes on and how many more "fools rush in".


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## Murff (Nov 11, 2011)

BailaC said:


> While it feels wrong, it is not a copyright violation. Copyright protects against copying. If she did not make a copy, but merely sold her lawfully made copy (that is, some pages from a magazine she bought), she had the right to do so, in the same way she could sell you the whole magazine.
> On the other hand, if she sold you (or gave you, for that matter) a copy of the pattern she made, that would have been an infringement. FYI, I'm a retired intellectual proprty lawyer.


You have explained this so clearly. Thank you.


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## MaryE-B (May 11, 2012)

It's done all the time on eBay. I don't think it's any more illegal than selling the magazine the pattern came from. You can resell something you own, but you can't copy it and continue selling it. If there is any restriction on selling a magazine in bits and pieces I don't know. It certainly seems as if it should be illegal, but I don't think it is. 
I do think its unethical to not say it has come from a magazine. I don't like to hear of being ripped off with an exorbitant charge for a pattern torn out of a magazine. It seems unethical even if it isn't illegal.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

It's really not unethical either. If the seller simply stated they had a pattern for sale...that's exactly what they had for sale. It might have been a little better if it had been disclosed that the origin of the pattern was a magazine but the buyer didn't ask either. 

AT first I thought the price was high..but as others have pointed out a downloaded pattern can cost that much and one must use their own paper and ink to print it out. Then I thought about the cost of postage, the price of a manilla envelope and realized t he price wasn't out of line either. Postage and the cost of a 9" x 12" manilla envelope would easily cost $2.00, making the cost of the pattern itself only $3.00 give or take a quarter here or there. Not bad if it's a pattern you really like.


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

courier770 said:


> It's interesting to see how many people get their exercise by, rushing to judgement, jumping to conclusions and hurdling in, to give their 2 cents before fully reading the thread. We seem to have quite a few members who enjoy sticking their foot in their mouth.
> 
> We're now up to page 9, let's see how long this goes on and how many more "fools rush in".


Exactly. It seems that some individuals are far more interested in making an attack on someone than achieving a respectful level of communcation and understanding when there is clearly information lacking.

Perhaps what is "immoral" is standing in judgment of another person without having all of the information, and encouraging others to do the same.


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

courier770 said:


> It's really not unethical either. If the seller simply stated they had a pattern for sale...that's exactly what they had for sale. It might have been a little better if it had been disclosed that the origin of the pattern was a magazine but the buyer didn't ask either.


Also, the original poster didn't say anything about the seller claiming that she (the seller) was the author of the pattern. This is an issue of a buyer making assumptions instead of asking clarifying questions.


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## jmj8316 (Sep 16, 2013)

It is illegal to copy anything from a publication for financial gain. Copyright infringement punishable by fine and imprisonment. You can turn them in.


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## Dowager (Jun 7, 2011)

gq16jw said:


> If you were referring to my $5.00 pattern, it was one of those in which you pay the money and they send you a downloadable copy of the pattern.


Courier770, how does copyright law apply here? If you purchase a pattern, then sell a downloadable copy of it?


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

jmj8316 said:


> It is illegal to copy anything from a publication for financial gain. Copyright infringement punishable by fine and imprisonment. You can turn them in.


I don't think the original poster said that she received a copy of a pattern, only that when she received the pattern it was one that had been removed from a publication.


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

Dowager said:


> Courier770, how does copyright law apply here? If you purchase a pattern, then sell a downloadable copy of it?


The Interweave Press .pdf on copyright for knitters addresses this.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

In order to sell a download pattern you must either be an authorized seller of the pattern or the copyright holder. This is not t he case here. You cannot duplicate or distribute copyrighted material unless you are an authorized dealer.

This is the exact reason why my patterns are not available as downloads...it's too easy for copyright infringement to happen. Once you have purchased a download you can print as many copies as you can afford paper for. There are dishonest individuals who will purchase a $5.oo download and print out multiple copies and pass them onto others for free or for charge. 

This particular case involves no copyright infringement, no unethical, immoral or fraudulence (which is way too close to flatulence if you ask me).

Copyright law (in the US) is not up to interpretation, any more than any other of our Federal laws. You don't get to pick and choose, you don't get to inject your beliefs. While the law may difficult to understand, ignorance of the law is never accepted as a defense.

I always come down on the side of the copyright holder..but in this case, everything was done legally. In one of my earliest posts on this thread I said that what didn't take place was a dialog between buyer and seller regarding the origin of the pattern. 

If you purchase a used car you can obtain what is called a "car fax"...it's a shame we don't have a "pattern fax"!


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

courier770 said:


> ... ignorance of the law is never accepted as a defense.


And this is great advice for those who would jump to accusing someone of committing a crime before they have all the information. By naming the seller, claiming that they are committing a crime and influencing other people to negatively impact that seller's business, just may open the door for that seller to seek legal advice.


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## tbforest (Feb 25, 2012)

chickkie said:


> photocopies are wrong, pages from magazines are okay


This was what I was wondering.....If they are the original pages, would that be illegal? Photocopies definitely and I'd ask for my money back! I also think they should (not required) have stated it was an individual pattern from a magazine if not photocopied.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

ebforest, agreed that a dialog between seller and buyer should have taken place but the seller is really only selling a pattern. When you sell a vehicle do you disclose where you got t hat vehicle from and under what circumstances? Generally not. It was up to the buyer to ask the origin of the pattern and "terms of sale". It is entirely legal to sell the original page(s) but you would have known that had you read the entire thread.


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## jobailey (Dec 22, 2011)

I find it so unbelievable that someone would do that!


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## laceylinda (Aug 17, 2012)

Cheryllum said:


> I saw a beautiful pattern for a little girl's cardigan It was $5.00 and paid and it was sent to me. I felt deceived. Someone had bought a magazine and cut the pattern out of the magazine and was selling each one in the magazine for $5.00. Am I immoral? this sickened me to the extent people go to get money. Maybe I am old fashion but this really irked me. Am I wrong in my thinking?


Selling pages from magazines is commonplace on ebay so I can't believe they would be unaware. A couple of years ago, Alan Dart's knitting pattern for Bagpuss was selling for around £11.00 and the ones I saw were all pages from magazines.


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## Benjismum (Mar 28, 2013)

understand how you feel...i'm also a a keen cardmaker and a few years ago i bought from an internet shopping site what was described as 46 card toppers in the form of classical ladies , paid almost £6 plus p&p for what turned out to be a sheet of wrapping paper with 46 images on. Of course it wasn't the shopping sites fault , just a very devious person using an honest shopping site, and honest folk, simply to make money


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

jobailey, did you bother to read the preceding 9 pages? I'd guess not. Nothing illegal, immoral, unethical or even dubious took place. Take the time to read before you comment, it's amazing what you can learn when you do.


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## Benjismum (Mar 28, 2013)

just replied but seems it not updated. I did this a few years ago, i am also a keen card maker and bought what was described as 46 images of classical ladies (toppers) but turned out to be a sheet of wrapping paper. Cost of over £6.


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## Benjismum (Mar 28, 2013)

oops...it's now updated


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

It's a "buyer beware" world. Buyers need to ask questions FIRST not later.


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## mac.worrall (Jun 24, 2011)

courier770 said:


> gma11331, nothing illegal or immoral was done here. Go back and read all of the replies and utilize the links that many have provided.
> 
> Good grief I expect that someone is going to ask that the seller be tarred and feathered.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Dowager (Jun 7, 2011)

courier770 said:


> jobailey, did you bother to read the preceding 9 pages? I'd guess not. Nothing illegal, immoral, unethical or even dubious took place. Take the time to read before you comment, it's amazing what you can learn when you do.


I would agree that nothing illegal took place. Immoral, unethical or dubious? I think so.

Couple of quotes that apply to this I think:

Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. ~J.C. Watts

If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters. ~Alan Simpson


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## SDKATE (Dec 18, 2012)

Along those lines, my friends (maybe 3 total) knit together all the time. We share patterns we have found, mostly they are in out of date magazines our mothers had, or we've found at the library. these are copied and shared just between our little group.....is this wrong, also. My only thinking is that most of the mags or books are outdated and were discarded. Your thoughts?


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## Dowager (Jun 7, 2011)

SDKATE said:


> Along those lines, my friends (maybe 3 total) knit together all the time. We share patterns we have found, mostly they are in out of date magazines our mothers had, or we've found at the library. these are copied and shared just between our little group.....is this wrong, also. My only thinking is that most of the mags or books are outdated and were discarded. Your thoughts?


I would guess that copyrights on these have long ago run out. And you are sharing them, not selling and not profiting them. But, again, that is just me.


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## Novasea (Nov 10, 2012)

courier770 said:


> gma11331, nothing illegal or immoral was done here. Go back and read all of the replies and utilize the links that many have provided.
> 
> Good grief I expect that someone is going to ask that the seller be tarred and feathered.


Hysterical, courier 
:lol: I was thinking the same thing. Good thing no one knows where this poor seller lives...I am quite sure a lynch mob would be on her front lawn right now!! No sense posting that nothing illegal has been done. No one is listening. Mob mentality has taken over!!!


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## rkr (Aug 15, 2012)

<<<This particular case involves no copyright infringement, no unethical, immoral or fraudulence.>>>

There is only one more possible scenario in which a crime could arise out of this perfectly legal situation:
if the Seller had *retained a copy* of what she was sellingthe original print pages from the magazine. 
When you relinquish an original by any means you choose it's illegal to retain ANY portion of the information from it in any format, stored electronically, printed or by any other means other than your memory!


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## valmac (Nov 22, 2012)

I have only one thing to add - Cheryllum: caveat emptor!


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## Seaglassoryarn (Apr 8, 2013)

I think it is 75 years after publication before something is in the public domain.


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## Sewsweet25 (Sep 9, 2013)

Absolutely Not! That is just plain stealing


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## cherylanne (May 1, 2013)

A question: When was the magazine published? I think, if a pattern is more than 40 years old, copyright isn't in effect any more. Is your pattern pre l960? If so, I'd just be grateful to have an "oldie but goody", even for $5.00. If its a recent pattern, report the person.


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## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

courier770 said:


> We're now up to page 9, let's see how long this goes on and how many more "fools rush in".


Thats the only reason I'm still reading- can't believe so many are still insisting it is illegal. HAve almost commented a few times myself but decided that it is pointless. Well actually I can believe- it happens often on this topic!


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## CindyMB (Jul 2, 2012)

My LYS photocopies free patterns from various sources, puts them in a plastic protective sheet, and then sells them for five dollars...even if you buy the yarn at the store!


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## CindyMB (Jul 2, 2012)

If you can sell a used book (Used Book Stores) so you can also sell a used magazine. it's as simple as that!


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## mavisb (Apr 18, 2011)

I bought a pattern recently from ebay and the woman did not say it was a photocopy. I have an original and because I have used it so much it is getting a bit diplidated. On the feed back, I wrote and said I was disappointed that it was not the original copy. Also this pattern was brought out in late 60's so it still have a lot of years left for copyright which is approx 99 years.

I also saw on ebay a woman selling a pattern out of a magazine that I had only just bought. I bought it to her attention that I had hoped she had permission from the magazine to sell these patterns because of copyright. She said she had permission, but I didn't see the pattern again.
E bay is supposed to read all these messages sent to an individual message.


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## laceandbits (Jun 23, 2011)

CindyMB said:


> If you can sell a used book (Used Book Stores) so you can also sell a used magazine. it's as simple as that!


My original comment was on page 4 and like other posters I can't believe how many of you are having trouble getting your heads around this simple concept.

It's nothing to do with time or the magazine being in or out of copyright.

If you buy a magazine you are legally allowed to sell it again, now second hand, immediately. And you are allowed to sell it whole or page by page.

As I said before it is buyer beware, so ask questions about what you are buying before you part with your money, but I don't understand why anyone needs to feel defrauded because a pattern *that they want and are happy to pay $5 for* comes perfectly legally as an original page taken from a magazine, rather than from a LYS or Ravelry.

What is illegal is to copy that page to sell, either as a paper photocopy or as an electronic document.


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## mavisb (Apr 18, 2011)

The magazines own the copyright to the article in the magazine and you are not supposed to sell any part of the magazine without first getting permission from the magazine. It still comes down to copyright. America has a very strong copyright, I don't know about Australia or England.


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

mavisb said:


> The magazines own the copyright to the article in the magazine and you are not supposed to sell any part of the magazine without first getting permission from the magazine. It still comes down to copyright. America has a very strong copyright, I don't know about Australia or England.


There is a difference between owning intellectual property and owning the physical copy of the original article. It has been stated many times by those professionals who have knowledge of American copyright law, and also via links to a document specifically written for knitters, that it is always OK to re-sell a magazine or book in whole or in part in its original printed form. As for utilizing the intellectual property, i.t., the content of the article to teach a class, for example, that is addressed in the document provided by the link posted previously. That link, once again, is to a document prepared by Interweave Press, a publisher of needlework patterns, books, magazines, etc.


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

darowil said:


> Thats the only reason I'm still reading- can't believe so many are still insisting it is illegal. HAve almost commented a few times myself but decided that it is pointless. Well actually I can believe- it happens often on this topic!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I am actually afraid to ask any questions on here. 
It's just easier to read and understand the copyright of the magazine I'm holding in my hands.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

O.K. let's clear up a few things. It is NOT legal to copy material from books or magazines from a library! It is NOT legal to make copies to "share" with friends. It doesn't matter if you are charging for this or doing it for free. Just because something is "out of print" does not mean it is no longer covered by copyright.

There is a Cat Bordhi book that has been out of print for a few years now, used copies command a very high price and it is still covered by her copyright on it.

Even "free" patterns can be covered by copyright and it's wrong to print them out for distribution. Websites that offer free patterns want people to visit their website. Why? Well one of the main reasons is advertising. Websites that have advertising on them, get paid for each "hit", this generates income. Other websites are selling items and want customers to visit their site to purchase items. So printing out mass copies and distributing them violates copyright.

Statements about copyright that start with "I think" or "I believe" are rampant in these discussions and carry no validity.


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## 13068 (Mar 23, 2011)

You are not old fashioned, people now a days will do anything for a buck and it's wrong to deceive people like that. I feel for you.


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

T said:


> You are not old fashioned, people now a days will do anything for a buck and it's wrong to deceive people like that. I feel for you.


There was no deception, as has been explained repeatedly.

As for what is "wrong," I think the more important "wrong" that has occurred has involved people contributing to this thread making negative statements about a seller that they don't even know, when they don't have the information about the transaction or the law, and people inciting one another to make false accusations against the seller including making a negative impact on her business.

It is one thing to have a belief that it is "morally wrong" to re-sell something, and it is quite another to spread inaccurate and incorrect information about the law and innocent people.

If you stop to think, when you purchase a garment, the designer, the patternmaker, the fitter, the sample maker, the seamstress, the companies that provide the fabrics, thread, buttons, zippers and notions, and many others, have already been paid. When that dress is donated to a second hand store and purchased for a second time, there is no fraud occurring. If that dress is purchased from the second hand store and fashioned into a Halloween costume, there is no fraud occurring. If the fabric is sliced up with a rotary cutter and used to crochet a rug, there is no fraud occurring. It's the same with books, magazines, and other publications where the original copy is purchased more than one time. If you want to believe that it is "morally wrong" to resell the dress or the books and magazines, that is your right. Damaging someone else's reputation when you are spreading false information about them is something that might put YOU on the wrong side of the law instead of the person that you are falsely accusing.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

wyldwmn, THANK YOU!

Here is the information regarding the length of copyright, straight from the US Government copyright website...feel free to peruse the entire site for the correct information on copyright in the US

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-duration.html#duration


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## bagibird (Sep 30, 2012)

Well, who knew such controversy could be generated all because someone bought a perfectly legal original pattern for a price they were happy to pay?? How is it difficult to see that the seller has done nothing illegal, immoral or unethical in selling something s/he owns and no longer wants? Where is the problem? The designer was paid for their work, and the publisher was paid when the magazine was purchased. No-one's rights have been violated, no-one's ideas stolen, and now someone has the pattern they wanted. So everyone's happy, right?


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

bagibird said:


> Where is the problem?


So, the "problem" doesn't lie with the transaction for the pattern. The "problem" lies with what has heretofore been described as a type of "mob mentality," where people are very quick to make negative judgements about people and things of which they know nothing or are misinformed, and where people are very quick to recommend harsh measures against the falsely accused person. This happens in other threads as well, where someone asks for advice and many of the people responding will make a negative attack on the individual mentioned by the original poster, recommending extreme measures rather than supporting with respectful ways of sorting out the situation and the communication problems.

"Mob mentality" is also known by psychological professionals as "herd mentality" and is one of the top-ten human thinking errors. Another type of thinking error is "reactance" which is something we've seen in this thread in great abundance.

Top 10 thinking errors or top 10 faults in human thinking is something that is easily googled if you want to learn more.

Thinking errors and reactance hurt innocent people.


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## bagibird (Sep 30, 2012)

wyldwmn said:


> So, the "problem" doesn't lie with the transaction for the pattern. The "problem" lies with what has heretofore been described as a type of "mob mentality," where people are very quick to make negative judgements about people and things of which they know nothing or are misinformed, and where people are very quick to recommend harsh measures against the falsely accused person. This happens in other threads as well, where someone asks for advice and many of the people responding will make a negative attack on the individual mentioned by the original poster, recommending extreme measures rather than supporting with respectful ways of sorting out the situation and the communication problems.
> 
> "Mob mentality" is also known by psychological professionals as "herd mentality" and is one of the top-ten human thinking errors. Another type of thinking error is "reactance" which is something we've seen in this thread in great abundance.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry - I didn't explain myself very clearly here. I do understand that the innocent seller has been wrongly accused of doing something illegal, which is, of course, totally unacceptable. I was trying to establish WHY the buyer (and the supporting KPers) felt aggrieved and why it was apparently so difficult to read and accept the facts and information made available.


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

bagibird said:


> I'm sorry - I didn't explain myself very clearly here. I do understand that the innocent seller has been wrongly accused of doing something illegal, which is, of course, totally unacceptable. I was trying to establish WHY the buyer (and the supporting KPers) felt aggrieved and why it was apparently so difficult to read and accept the facts and information made available.


I think you were very clear, which is why I posted the information that names the behaviors that we've seen in this thread. It is with naming behaviors that they can then be changed, and it is with naming behavior that we can understand the "WHY" that you so correctly identified. They buyer didn't stop to think about her own process when she made the purchase, and her own error in not asking the seller about the origin of the pattern. Instead the buyer stated that she "felt" deceived which set off the load of fireworks.

This could have been a simple discussion about the questions buyers could ask when making purchases in order to ensure that they will be receiving what they think they are purchasing. That would have been far more helpful to a lot more people than spreading incorrect information and inciting people to think badly of the seller, and worse yet, to impact her business in a negative manner.


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## bagibird (Sep 30, 2012)

wyldwmn said:


> So, the "problem" doesn't lie with the transaction for the pattern. The "problem" lies with what has heretofore been described as a type of "mob mentality," where people are very quick to make negative judgements about people and things of which they know nothing or are misinformed, and where people are very quick to recommend harsh measures against the falsely accused person. This happens in other threads as well, where someone asks for advice and many of the people responding will make a negative attack on the individual mentioned by the original poster, recommending extreme measures rather than supporting with respectful ways of sorting out the situation and the communication problems.
> 
> "Mob mentality" is also known by psychological professionals as "herd mentality" and is one of the top-ten human thinking errors. Another type of thinking error is "reactance" which is something we've seen in this thread in great abundance.
> 
> ...


Off topic I know, but I've just spent only a few minutes reading some of the information I found on google about thinking errors and I'm mortified to say that I am (or have been) guilty of many of the errors more often than I care to admit! Thank you for helping me realise how I can change my behaviour patterns.


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

bagibird said:


> Off topic I know, but I've just spent only a few minutes reading some of the information I found on google about thinking errors and I'm mortified to say that I am (or have been) guilty of many of the errors more often than I care to admit! Thank you for helping me realise how I can change my behaviour patterns.


You are very welcome. There are a lot of resources that explain in clear language how our brains work, and how that affects our analytical abilities, our ability to respond rather than react, and how we make our choices. People who would take advantage of us and manipulate us for all kinds of reasons study the thinking errors and how our brains work, so that they can play on our weaknesses. This comes into play not only in abuse and oppression, but also in advertising, recruiting for various types of organizations, and in convincing employees that the workplace is a "family."

With respect to reacting, there is a part of the brain that is in charge of our "fight or flight" responses, which keeps us safe when we are in danger. Then the front of the brain is where our analytical abilities reside. When presented with a situation in which we feel fear, the front of the brain will emit chemicals that calm the "fight or flight" part of the brain as it analyzes the incoming information, so that we can make choices and respond. Some people's brains don't produce those chemicals in the analytical part of the brain, and they can suffer from things like intermittent explosive disorder, among other things. Some people are socialized to "react" and take extreme measures when they are confronted with a situation that causes them fear, and that feeds in to the herd mentality where everybody jumps off the cliff together instead of taking the time to learn something and respond in a respectful and supportive manner that will support something beneficial for the herd.

As for feeling guilty, while I appreciate that upon learning about thinking errors guilt can be one of the first things a person feels, I think it is important to keep in mind that the information about how our brains work isn't given to us by those that have it, is not given to us in our school system, and our parents often don't have it to pass on to us to aid us in our development and socialization. It's important to hold on to the thought that when we know better, we do better, and to see ourselves as being in the process of learning about these things, and not beat ourselves up for knowing today what we didn't know yesterday.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I'm not convinced this is the result of "Mob/Herd Mentality". People were not reading what was being posted as replies, otherwise they would have known nothing illegal took place. They jumped in to say the seller had committed an illegal act, was unethical, immoral and someone who would do anything for money. There were repeated statements to "report" the person and someone even mentioned the Attorney General. For "Mob/Herd Mentality" to take place don't people have to know what the "mob/flock" were saying?


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## gq16jw (Jul 9, 2013)

Good Grief! Are we still talking about this?


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Obviously, since you just replied.


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

courier770 said:


> I'm not convinced this is the result of "Mob/Herd Mentality". People were not reading what was being posted as replies, otherwise they would have known nothing illegal took place. They jumped in to say the seller had committed an illegal act, was unethical, immoral and someone who would do anything for money. There were repeated statements to "report" the person and someone even mentioned the Attorney General. For "Mob/Herd Mentality" to take place don't people have to know what the "mob/flock" were saying?


Not necessarily. The copyright topic has historically been a heated topic, as have other topics, and the individuals who want to make harsh, uninformed statements as well as call for someone to be reported (including to the attorney general) are a mob in themselves. They may descend individually on a thread, but they have been around the forum and know how they choose to act when they see a topic to which they can react instead of being informed and thoughtful. "Mob mentality" isn't about being informed--it's getting caught up in the fear and emotion and being out of control.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't think about it that way. Though these discussions usually go in the opposite direction, leaning more to the side that doesn't defend copyright.


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## KittiPaws (Aug 10, 2013)

Even though it's not illegal to buy a pattern that is a page torn from a magazine, I would still like to know that this is what I'm getting. Speaking only for myself, I would be annoyed to pay $6.00 for a page or two from a magazine when I could have gotten an entire magazine for almost the same price. 

I think the seller carries a good portion of the responsibility to disclose something like this. As an occasional eBay seller myself (usually of used mystery books), I disclose everything possible about my items specifically so that buyers can't come back to me later and say, "You didn't tell me about THIS."


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## mavisb (Apr 18, 2011)

As I mentioned no names, I for one have not ruined anyone's reputation or stopping their business. I am one who does not know much about copyright but I do know there is copyright on magazines and patterns. Courier 770 would know more than a lot of people because she had delved into this expansive subject.


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## mac.worrall (Jun 24, 2011)

wyldwmn said:


> Not necessarily. The copyright topic has historically been a heated topic, as have other topics, and the individuals who want to make harsh, uninformed statements as well as call for someone to be reported (including to the attorney general) are a mob in themselves. They may descend individually on a thread, but they have been around the forum and know how they choose to act when they see a topic to which they can react instead of being informed and thoughtful. "Mob mentality" isn't about being informed--it's getting caught up in the fear and emotion and being out of control.


It seems to me that it is designers who feel underrewarded for their efforts who dive in to these discussions,all guns blazing.


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## Ferol Pat (Jun 18, 2013)

you are NOT wrong, that is thievery


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## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

mavisb said:


> As I mentioned no names, I for one have not ruined anyone's reputation or stopping their business. I am one who does not know much about copyright but I do know there is copyright on magazines and patterns. Courier 770 would know more than a lot of people because she had delved into this expansive subject.


And the orginal poster gave no names and has not reposted so we have no idea who she was so upset about. And this is good as the seller had done nothing wrong anyway. It would have been pretty tough if she was blacklisted by many on KP for something that was legal.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Designers get upset (no blazing guns) because this is how they make their living. In this particular case nothing illegal was done and I'm so glad the name of the seller was never disclosed.

When copyright infringement does happen it generally results in a loss of income for the copyright holder. I'm pretty sure if you went into a shop and someone took a few dollars out of your purse, you'd be upset. Well copyright infringement is the exact same thing but it's not just one person taking a few dollars. This has nothing to do with feeling unrewarded.


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## Sherlock (Jul 19, 2011)

Think about how you would feel if this was a pattern you had designed and you saw it being touted on the web etc. 

Please report this infringement of Copyright Law. Taking no action condones the practice.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Sherlock, please go back and read through all of the replies here, no infringement of Copyright Law took place.


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

AAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

Ferol Pat said:


> you are NOT wrong, that is thievery


The biggest thing wrong here is that you did not read all the posts. There is NOTHING wrong with selling pages from a magazine.


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

Sherlock said:


> Think about how you would feel if this was a pattern you had designed and you saw it being touted on the web etc.
> 
> Please report this infringement of Copyright Law. Taking no action condones the practice.


Think about how you would feel if you were the publisher of a magazine, and learned that your past issues were so well liked that there was a great demand for them and they were being sold on the Internet for more than the original purchase price, and that because not all needlework stores carried your magazine, that the magazine is so well-liked that people who live in areas where it is not available to them are willing to pay more to get a copy.

Think about how you would feel if you were a designer who sold a pattern to a magazine and that pattern was so well liked that the original copy of that pattern was in high demand, and that even if people weren't interested in the rest of the magazine, they did want to buy the original copy of your pattern because they like it so much.

Thank about how you would feel if on a needlework forum someone showed a picture of something they made from one of your patterns, and numerous other people asked how they could get it too.

Think about how you would feel if you were a designer who had sold patterns to different publications and people on the Internet were ERRONEOUSLY stating that purchase of original copies of your patterns was a crime, and think about how you would feel when you found out they were encouraging other people to not only not purchase your patterns, but to report those who were selling the original copies of your pattern as a crime.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Bravo! Again.

I'm not exactly sure why people are jumping to the conclusion that this a case of copyright infringement. Surely many of us have seen used book stores, seen books and magazines sold by thrift stores or charity shops and seen original copies of books and magazines sold at garage/yard sales. This is no different.

Sherlock, I AM a copyrighted designer. Patterns that appear in magazines may have been sold to the magazine by the designer, may have been lent to the magazine to appear in an issue or may be the work product of an "in house" designer, employed by the magazine. Some designers are employed by yarn companies to come up with patterns using their yarns - these too can appear in magazines. 

Selling the original pages out of the magazine is no different than reselling an original pattern that you (or anyone else has purchased). It's called "secondary market". No different than selling a used car.


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

courier770 said:


> No different than selling a used car.


And no different than buying a new car, and once it has gone up in value because it has become a classic, selling it for much more than what you paid for it. Is that a crime or a "moral" sin?

If you buy a brand new house, part of the purchase price pays the architect who designed it, the contractor who built it, the costs of all the materials, the subcontractors, the landscaper, the plumbers, the electricians, etc. After five years when that house has appreciated in value, you sell it and buy another one. Are you committing a crime, then, because it is higher in value? If you added a patio to it, changed the paint color, or turned the garage into a family room, have you committed a crime? Have you committed some "moral" sin? If you buy a home that was previously owned, would you report the real estate agents involved in that sale, as well as the mortgage lenders, and the inspectors to the attorney general's office? Are the committing a "moral" sin?


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## Sherlock (Jul 19, 2011)

I stand corrected and apologise abjectly.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Thank you Sherlock, you are the lone person to apologize for your misconception...I truly thank you.


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

I have a question on copying patterns from library books for own personal use. Would it be a copyright infringemant if I just copied it for my own personal use? And should libraries be held accountable for letting people copy pages from books right there in the library?


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

brucew said:


> I have a question on copying patterns from library books for own personal use. Would it be a copyright infringemant if I just copied it for my own personal use? And should libraries be held accountable for letting people copy pages from books right there in the library?


I have asked this question in public libraries and in university libraries and also in public copy centers. The answer from all three has been that they are not responsible for what their patrons do. I do not know if that is the definitive answer--it's just the one I have received when I've asked about this. At university libraries, students in my classes were often told to copy pages from assigned readings in books, and the libraries provided copiers for that specific purpose.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

The question regarding copying material from books, magazines, periodicals, etc., from a library is a difficult one to answer. There is something called "fair use", this includes use for the purpose of education and or critiquing. HOWEVER, under "fair use" only a small portion of the material can be copied/dupicated. To copy materials from a library, for other purposes, would be copyright infringement. It's up to library patrons to be good citizens and merely "borrow" the material, not copy it. 

Some libraries are very strict about copying and patrons are not permitted use of the machines. At those libraries you must go through the librarian "on duty" to have materials copied. Small libraries that depend on volunteers (who are untrained in Library Science) probably have a bit of material copied that shouldn't be.


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

courier770 said:


> The question regarding copying material from books, magazines, periodicals, etc., from a library is a difficult one to answer. There is something called "fair use", this includes use for the purpose of education and or critiquing. HOWEVER, under "fair use" only a small portion of the material can be copied/dupicated. To copy materials from a library, for other purposes, would be copyright infringement. It's up to library patrons to be good citizens and merely "borrow" the material, not copy it.


I would add that in libraries and some copy centers (for example, those that are located next to educational campuses) only a portion of the item is copied, as mentioned, for educational purposes under the "fair use" rule. Some authors allow professors at universities to make portions of their publications available for electronic download via that university's library, or allow the professor to distribute photocopies. Sometimes there is a fee to the author/publisher and sometimes not, depending on the agreement. ILL (interlibrary loan) programs allow individuals to request chapters or other portions from books and other publications, and that is not considered to be a copyright violation, again, most likely because this is allowed for educational purposes as described in the previous post.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

Why I totally agree that no law was broken here, I have something to say about the discussion that other people here gave correct information and some didn't listen..

I agree about the herd mentality, have seen it much too often here and other places. But the other thing is that some posters here feel that if THEY believe they are experts, everyone else should believe they are experts, and that every statement they have made is absolutely correct, and how dare anyone disagree. I have seen a lot of incorrect information posted here on KP that was touted as correct by the poster who wrote it. Just because someone said it doesn't make it true. And just because someone says it with authority doesn't make it true.
It amazes me how people here (and other sites) simply assume that what is posted is accurate without ever checking for themselves. Not sure if it is laziness or naivete. 
On the other side of the coin, it also amazes me that many posters feel that whatever they say is the final say on the topic and no one should disagree or research for themselves.

I learn as much about human psychology here some days as I learn about knitting, lol!


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

vjh1530 said:


> W
> It amazes me how people here (and other sites) simply assume that what is posted is accurate without ever checking for themselves. lol!


It's part of the set of human thinking errors. People hear something and want to use it to support their opinions, or address their fears, so they state it as fact without being able to provide any documentation to support what they say. Then they get carried away with extreme "remedies" or retribution against the perceived/alleged villain. These people are "reacting" without thinking instead of "responding" by first educating themselves and then participating in a respectful and meaningful discussion.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

Critical thinking skills are in very short supply sometimes. It's a shame it's not taught in elementary school. Might save a lot of angst later in life.


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

vjh1530 said:


> Critical thinking skills are in very short supply sometimes. It's a shame it's not taught in elementary school. Might save a lot of angst later in life.


Exactly. Critical thinking and information about known thinking errors is something that we should all learn from the time we are very young, instead of after trouble erupts or after we've started to learn life in "the school of hard knocks."


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I think how one has been trained to obtain information, comes into play. Some accept what they have been told by others, what they have overheard and what their own belief on the subject is. Others have to have it proven to them. I belong to the second group. I should have been from Missouri because you have to "show me" everything. 

The US Government website on copyright is a wealth of information but some are not inclined to visit the site for information. Perhaps they think the person who gave them information had the correct information, perhaps they are not experienced researchers. That may speak louder as to how they were raised and how they were educated, "trained", if you will.

I'm no expert on how the mind and how thought process' work, though I do believe that "life experience" plays a role. If you grew up in a home where the answer to your question "why" was answered with "because I said so" or "because I am the mom/dad" you may be less likely to seek answers/information from other sources.


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

courier770 said:


> I'm no expert on how the mind and how thought process' work, though I do believe that "life experience" plays a role. If you grew up in a home where the answer to your question "why" was answered with "because I said so" or "because I am the mom/dad" you may be less likely to seek answers/information from other sources.


You are exactly correct. Part of it is our socialization, as you pointed out, and what else people often don't consider is that withholding information is one of the most often-used tools of oppression. History tells us that part of what disempowered women, for example, was excluding them from the same educational systems made available to men, and exluding people of color from those same systems as well. The current educational system in the US has long been criticized as a grooming-ground for potential corporate employees, with little or insufficient emphasis on the arts. The information that is frequently being withheld is about our own bodies and brain, and then there is "mis"-information that we are handed as well. "Lies My Teacher Told Me" is one book that addresses this.

Critical thinking and self-knowledge are basic to our ability to communicate effectively and have satisfying and fulfilling relationships with one another, even in cyberspace. :-D They are part of the foundation needed in order to be able to have a conversation that is respectful and doesn't digress into anger and personal attacks.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

HMMM...I seem to remember a book titled, "Lies my Mother told me". The most oppressive Nations in this world are those that reserve education for the elite only. It seem that the thirst for knowledge and education comes from opposites sides of t he fence. Those who had that thirst fostered by others and those who had it denied by others.

One thing I do not agree with, is that the internet is something evil. Access to information is a wonderful thing, wish it was available to all and used by all to further their knowledge.


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

courier770 said:


> One thing I do not agree with, is that the internet is something evil. Access to information is a wonderful thing, wish it was available to all and used by all to further their knowledge.


That is exactly right. Those who would oppress us demonize that which can be beneficial to us, and that includes demonizing the Internet. What is most important is, as you have commented, developing analytical skills.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Bless you! While navigating the internet can have pitfalls for youngsters, it also brings the world to their fingertips. With supervision, it can be such a valuable tool for gleaning knowledge, not to mention insight into matters/subjects large and small. 

My late father would have loved having a computer and access to the internet...you'd have had to pry him away from a computer....he was a "sponge". He'd have soaked up everything he could like a biscuit with a ready bowl of gravy.


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## sandy wright (Jul 14, 2011)

I recently noticed a women selling free patterns from Spotlight and sent her an email telling her I thought it was terrible she would do this. Well let me tell you I received a very nasty email in response....makes you a target and is it worth it??


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## wyldwmn (Jun 11, 2013)

sandy wright said:


> I recently noticed a women selling free patterns from Spotlight and sent her an email telling her I thought it was terrible she would do this. Well let me tell you I received a very nasty email in response....makes you a target and is it worth it??


I don't see why that would be a problem if the seller was selling original copies and not photocopies. There are people who live in areas where free pattern leaflets are not available, and to them it might be worth it to purchase them from someone who has access to them. Again, this is an issue of buyer beware. A buyer can always contact the company that published the free patterns and ask for a copy by mail, or simply not purchase from that seller. As well, soemtimes people have older free leaflets that are no longer being published, some of which may now be considered vintage. They are not committing any crime by selling them, or selling a batch of them to those who want them. It's better, in my opinion, than throwing them into the landfill where they won't benefit anyone. I sometimes have old patterns that are not really in good shape, and I have donated them to those who make items to be donated to hospitals, foster children programs, and other programs that assist the needy.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Selling the originals, particularly if they are "vintage" patterns is really not a problem. As long as duplication is not taking place...it's OK.


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## sunnybutterfly (May 15, 2011)

courier770 said:


> People not reading posts before they jump in, is pretty common here. When it comes to the subject of copyright, it's always worse.
> 
> There's the problem of the average citizen not knowing what copyright law covers and then there are those who think the law can be interpreted any way they choose.
> 
> Like this little myth that someone stated earlier about designers saying you cannot use their pattern for retail/commercial purposes. It's not t he designer, it's the LAW. Copyright automatically protects the holder from having their intelligent property used for the financial gain of another. It covers all forms of copyrighted material equally. You CANNOT rerecord a copyrighted song by say Michael Jackson and sell the recordings...unless you want the entire Jackson family suing you.


Please clarify for me. Is copyright automatic or do you have to apply (and pay) for it. I used to work in a production nursery and all new release plants for subject to intellectual property rights issued under strigent conditions and at great cost. Is there a procedure for knitting (or any) designs, or is it just implied that there are copyrights attached.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Given t he context of what has been discussed here...please take the time to visit the US Copyright website and educate yourself. We'd all appreaciate it. It's NOT a difficult website to navigate and you should find all of the information you need quite easily. This is yet another case of someone who is not willing to do some research regarding copyright in their own country. Why would I know copyright law in the county you live in? Not to be rude but it is YOUR job to research the laws in the country you live in. Take the time to educate yourself..it certainly isn't my job.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

sunnybutterfly said:


> Please clarify for me. Is copyright automatic or do you have to apply (and pay) for it. I used to work in a production nursery and all new release plants for subject to intellectual property rights issued under strigent conditions and at great cost. Is there a procedure for knitting (or any) designs, or is it just implied that there are copyrights attached.


I don't know the laws in your country, but in the US copyright is automatic. However, if you want to enforce that copyright, ie, you wish to challenge someone in court over ownership of a pattern for instance, you would have to have previously registered that pattern with the US Copyright Office (for a fee). The best thing to do is to look up the laws in your country online - you can google for the official government website.

I would not take anyone else's information regarding the law except a lawyer who specializes in Intellectual Property. That includes people who say they have a lawyer and know the information - you don't know if they truly even have a lawyer or just say they do to sound important to others. If they actually do have a lawyer you can't be sure they correctly understood what that lawyer told them.


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## sunnybutterfly (May 15, 2011)

Its just that you are SO vocal about this subject and seem to know everything, so I thought I would go to the source. However if you don't feel qualified to answer please keep your outrageous opinions to yourself. You don't seem to have a problem spouting off to everyone else.


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## Granny8 (Mar 23, 2011)

Well said.... thank you..


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

Soooooooo...do you think the orginal poster used this forum to vent and then walked away, never looking back to see the situation she created and Courier to set everyone straight once again?

And I bet this topic will come up again and again and again.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

The subject comes up regularly and if you are inquiring about US Copyright just go to the website. It's very informative.


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## Ginny K (Jun 1, 2011)

Yes, the lengths people go to ... if we could harness that creativity maybe we could solve the nation's budget problems.


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## Murff (Nov 11, 2011)

courier770 said:


> The subject comes up regularly and if you are inquiring about US Copyright just go to the website. It's very informative.


Thank you for all your information.


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## aliciawake (Jun 21, 2011)

According to the rules of the Classified page: 
If you are offering copyrightable material, then you must be the author/copyright holder or you must have written permission from the rightful copyright holder to distribute this material.

While the topic originator does not say that she bought the pattern here, doesnt the rule above keep that from happening? Or at least give the administrators the right to take action?


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

"If you are offering copyrightable material, then you must be the author/copyright holder or you must have written permission from the rightful copyright holder to distribute this material."

The word "distribute" suggests copies, not originals.


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## aliciawake (Jun 21, 2011)

the relevant definition i found doesnt imply copies:

sell and dispatch goods: to sell and deliver merchandise


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Go back through all of the pages of this topic and read everything.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

aliciawake said:


> the relevant definition i found doesnt imply copies:
> 
> sell and dispatch goods: to sell and deliver merchandise


then you haven't read the disclaimers on items, or read this topic completely.


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## aliciawake (Jun 21, 2011)

chickkie said:


> then you haven't read the disclaimers on items, or read this topic completely.


Why must you be do nasty about it? I read every single post.


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## SDKATE (Dec 18, 2012)

Just thinking before this gets really ugly, and someone says something they don't want to say, either we agree to disagree or admn please unplug this post.....ladies we are supposed to be friends here....not enemies,


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

aliciawake said:


> Why must you be do nasty about it? I read every single post.


Sorry


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

The original poster walked away long ago and had not been heard from, as to their original intent..who knows? they didn't stick around long enough to make that clear.


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

Beating a dead horse.....but, in fairness to Alicia who said, "According to the rules of the Classified page:" about the distribution of material, I believe she is referring to the policy of this forum, rather than copyright law per se.
My point was (and I haven't read the classifed rules), that KP is stating a broad policy aimed at stopping copyright infringement in its classified section, without going into the actual laws.


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

And here we go again...another new thread has been posted sbout 'copyright' while this one is still going strong with 16 pages of replies. :-(

http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-208071-1.html


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## jbbh12 (Nov 14, 2011)

I am sure this is illegal but I know what you mean ...... I have also bought discs off Ebay and they have been the same ............... It is a lot of money and I am sure you feel like you have been cheated


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