# Let's REALLY talk about the "Knitty Gritty of the yarn/textile industry"



## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I'm probably going to upset some people when I open this "can of worms"... but let the "uncanning" begin! We all want yarns at bargain basement prices..as long as those "slave wages" aren't being paid to one of OUR family members! The pittance paid to child workers, forced and "slave" laborers..won't even buy them a bowl of rice! Would we settle for these conditions for our own families? Not on your life!

There's "cheap yarn" and then there is just "cheap life". It's a shame that so many use the excuse "I can't afford anything else" when opting to purchase yarns that utilize child/forced and SLAVE labor.

I will never allow a dime of my money to go into the coffers of a company that allow the weak, the young and the infirm to be exploited..most "true" Christians won't. Think about your choices and the impacts those choices have.


----------



## elissa57 (Jun 3, 2011)

Well said.


----------



## Lil Kristie (Nov 25, 2011)

elissa57 said:


> Well said.


Yes, well said. And herein lies the "but." I am disabled. I have Congestive Heart Failure, Diabetes, Chronic Bronchitis, Asthma. I'm on continuous oxygen. I live with my DD and SIL and GD's as I can't live by myself with my health problems. I am only receiving SSI. I worked 11 years as a school bus driver for the handicapped. That doesn't pay into Social Security. So therefore, even though I'm disabled, I can only draw SSI.

I don't have money to afford the quality yarns. I'd love to have them to use. Alas, that option isn't available for me or my DD and SIL. My DD is a caregiver for me. We buy what we can afford. Most of that when it is on sale.

I don't like child/forced and slave labor myself. But a lot of people who crochet/knit can only afford cheaper yarns. And not because they are cheap people. I resent being lumped into a category that is willingly supporting child/forced and slave labor.


----------



## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

I'm not getting in to your discussion other than only this

Just remember this, if not for the pittance. There would be nothing! That's nothing, 

Maybe direct your energy toward bettering conditions for those people, I can provide more information on how.

Don't take away what little they have until other measures are in place


----------



## Edith M (Aug 10, 2011)

Amen


Lil Kristie said:


> Yes, well said. And herein lies the "but." I am disabled. I have Congestive Heart Failure, Diabetes, Chronic Bronchitis, Asthma. I'm on continuous oxygen. I live with my DD and SIL and GD's as I can't live by myself with my health problems. I am only receiving SSI. I worked 11 years as a school bus driver for the handicapped. That doesn't pay into Social Security. So therefore, even though I'm disabled, I can only draw SSI.
> 
> I don't have money to afford the quality yarns. I'd love to have them to use. Alas, that option isn't available for me or my DD and SIL. My DD is a caregiver for me. We buy what we can afford. Most of that when it is on sale.
> 
> I don't like child/forced and slave labor myself. But a lot of people who crochet/knit can only afford cheaper yarns. And not because they are cheap people. I resent being lumped into a category that is willingly supporting child/forced and slave labor.


----------



## Lostie (May 2, 2013)

I'm conflicted about this, because we are very aware of the time and effort we put into our craft. Last year I went into Marks and Spencer's and my eye was immediately caught by how very realistic the "traditional" items were. I immediately went over and turned them inside out to see if a clever machine had been invented.... no, they were obviously hand made. I looked at the yarn - reasonable quality - and the ribbon trimmings which were knitted in, not glued on. I then thought that if Marks were selling them for £30, what on earth were the workers paid? (They were made in China)
I sent an enquiry to marks, and got the usual reply of " we ensure that these are produced in good conditions" etc.

Well, if I were forced into total poverty, I could churn these out, but there is no pleasure in that, just a bit of a resentment that I had no life.

It's so difficult. I try to buy locally, and am thrilled by the quality I get, but I can't spin or diye, or look after the animals that I rely on, so I feel somewhat bad that I am "profiting" from the work of others.

What can I do? I love the stuff for something special, which I pass on to others, and I knock out and donate charity items in suitable yarns for those in need.

I'd love to know what others think.


----------



## yourmother306 (Nov 30, 2011)

How do we know what yarns are in question?


----------



## Lostie (May 2, 2013)

tryalot said:


> I'm not getting in to your discussion other than only this
> 
> Just remember this, if not for the pittance. There would be nothing! That's nothing,
> 
> ...


Agreed. There is always the feeling that, while these are being churned out, who am I to deprive another of what the must do. There for the grace of God.....


----------



## MzKnitCro (May 29, 2012)

Live within your means, and do what you can.


----------



## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2012/11/this-company-is-employing-children-lets-boycott-their-products-or-better-not/

This link also provides other links on the problem of child labour.

I hope some read them in order to understand that the solution to such a complex problem is not so simplistic as calling for import bans, or not buying goods from China, India and other countries


----------



## DonnieK (Nov 23, 2011)

I have had to wait and think about what I wanted to say to you Courier and what I have to say also covers everyone who reads your post and jumps in saying things that could be very hurtful to others. 
I am one of those who buys cheap yarns when I can get them. But, I have been blessed enough to have friends who have supplied me with some very nice yarns also. 
The type of yarn I use does not tell anyone that I am a Christian or a non-Christian. But, to put people down in one breath and then say you are a Christian in another breath, is just wrong. It really sounded like you think because you can afford to be selective in your choice of yarn makes you a better Christian because you don't buy yarn produced by children or slave labor. How do you know who is producing your yarn. I mean just have a look at what we have found out about Progressive Insurance. I have it today, tomorrow I won't. If you don't know about it, look it up. I go to a church that believes Christians are kind, loving, giving, people who give what they can give. Our members do not spit on the widows or the ones who get a little penitence for all the years we worked and paid in and our employers paid into, and call that good. Yet, I receive only $16.00 per month for food. My doctor bills no longer mean anything, my auto insurance does not count, my registration for vehicle does not count, auto repairs do not count (I spent over $400.00 to have my car fixed), so don't talk about things you know nothing of, and don't pass judgements on people who are doing their best to keep yarn ahead enough to do their charity knitting and share their stash with others who are in the same boat.
Most of the people you talk about would be telling you to hush because of fear of losing that money from their job, no matter the long hours or the little pay, because that little something to them is better than nothing. 

I am afraid you must not be keeping up on situations or either you are repeating something someone else has told you or you have overheard without doing your research.

I mean no offense to you, however you have offended me. I worked every day of my life from age 16 until 5 years ago. I knit for charity and give everything I make to someone who can use it. I have only 2 things that I have made in the last 5 years that I have kept. Yes, I have sold a few things because I needed to supplement my income, but, I don't sell everything I make and the person who orders buys the yarns I use to make what they want. I would never think of using the yarns given to me for my charity work for myself because then I could not be able to say I am a Christian.


Now, I have had my say on this and shall not come back to this post. But be aware that what I say is my own opinion and I do not wish to force my ideas on anyone else or make anyone else feel beneath me. I will continue to use what I can afford to purchase and you all can do as you wish also.


----------



## mochamarie (Mar 9, 2012)

tryalot said:


> http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2012/11/this-company-is-employing-children-lets-boycott-their-products-or-better-not/
> 
> This link also provides other links on the problem of child labour.
> 
> I hope some read them in order to understand that the solution to such a complex problem is not so simplistic as calling for import bans, or not buying goods from China, India and other countries


I agree with the above and also with what Donnie K wrote.

Until the government in countries such as Turkey, for example, decide to enact child labor laws and enforce them, until they start caring about their own people and have social welfare programs (no those ARE NOT dirty words) to benefit the poor, nothing at all will change. I Repeat: nothing.

In the USA, we have food stamp programs, subsidized housing, homeless shelters and many, many other things to help those less fortunate than we are. Many are government programs but also lots of churches (I belong to Lutheran Women's Missionary League) have projects both here and overseas to help the poor and disadvantaged populations. There are plenty of other people who are not affiliated with a church, but out of the goodness of their hearts knit for hospitals, nursing homes, our troops, etc.

And that's all I'm going to say about that. It is up to the government in those countries to change things--not us boycotting products.

Why, courier, do you seem to thrive on being argumentative and strident? Whenever I see your avatar I think, "Now what?"A while back you wrote that education is the key. Well, those governments have to fund that, too. Normally, I try not to get involved in these kinds of threads and would rather focus on the sharing/caring/helping that we see on KP. Not that I'm perfect mind you. I'm just who I am and had to speak my mind. :thumbup: :-D :thumbdown:


----------



## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Purchasing goods from countries that allow child/forced/slave labor can in no way be compared to welfare. I'm sorry but there is a huge difference.. 

As an emerging nation no one protected our children from such horrors as the fires that took lives of children working in factories. We however know better. 

It really doesn't matter what the company name is..any company that earns it's profits off the backs of children and those "forced" into labor is NOT an honorable company and I do not care how "cheap" their goods are..their goods are "tainted" and we know it.

I'm rather tired of people using the excuse "that's all I can afford"...really? All you can afford is products that earn company owners millions of dollars on the backs of small children and forced/slave labor? I'm a parent, a grandparent and I sure don't want to think about MY grandchildren carrying huge bundles of cotton for some multi million dollar company.

We seem to be very good at turning a blind eye to labor abuses in 3rd world countries when it serves our purposes don't we?

It's a shame that we have different standards for OUR children and grandchildren than we have for others isn't it?

How do you tell? Well if it's produced in Turkey or China you can bet that basic human rights are NOT involved. In this country we have standards that must be met for guest workers who pick carrots but we don't employ children in factories and mills...our children go to school!

I'm so sick of excuses being used for companies to earn huge profit margins on the backs of small children.

We have programs in this country to protect children from the abuses of big business but we seem to turn a blind eye to the use of child/forced/slave labor when the price is right, don't we?


----------



## inishowen (May 28, 2011)

sometimes courier likes to light the touch paper, and stand back!


----------



## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

inishowen, I resent that remark! I'm a mother and a grandmother and I sure don't want to think about my grandchildren toiling in the textile industry..maybe you feel differently about your grandchildren. As for "lighting a torch and standing back"...at least I have convictions and I'm not afraid to state them. When I'm in the mood for "cheap" yarn, I spin my own and don't depend on children in third wold countries to slave for pennies to provide me with yarn. May I ask what YOU do? Oh wait I suppose that means standing in line at WalMart or Hobby Lobby to purchase yarns made in 3rd world countries by children or that use valuable fossil fuels so you don't actually have to launder something by hand.

Two can play the "assumption" game...bring your lunch lady, your insults are childish!


----------



## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Courier, your topic post doesn't even warrant my reply; but I will briefly.
You go on with these rants a few times a year.
But you WILL NOT dictate how I spend my measly little pittance of "extra" cash I may have at the end of the month, after budgeting and pinching those pennies.
Nor will you attack my religion or anyone else's. 
You want to be a yarn snob....that is your choice; but you have no right to throw up that nose of yours and look down on us.
You have no idea of what yarns we buy, where we purchased them, etc.
The majority if not all of my purchases are for items I make for charity gifting.
When I go on E-bay to purchase a lot, I don't refuse because of...., or investigate/research... where each skein is manufactured.
Heaven forbid, the child I want to make a sweater for, will have to go without because of your standards.

Talking about child labor...
Look at Maine, who has laws on the books to allow farmers' school age children to be excused from school to help in the harvesting.
I am sure there is a minimum age for this, but I am sure a farmer allows their 5-10 year old "help" out with the harvest.
I am sure there are other farm producing states that have similar laws/excused absences. 
So look in your own back yard of the US as a whole.
Don't eat that Potato!!!!!

I will continue to say "I can't afford it!". ..."That's all I can afford!". :mrgreen:


----------



## DonnieK (Nov 23, 2011)

Well, shoot, I said I was not coming back here, but Courier, my thought is that you started this post rareing for a fight. If you are so worried about the 3rd world countries, just go over there and get everything all straightened out! Until those countries decide to do something or will allow other countries to come in and take over, there is not a whole lot that we can do about them. But, my eyes have seen so much here in the US that is wrong and we are doing nothing to straighten that out either. I have seen our own little citizens, so abused they are unable to walk or to speak because of fear. I have seen their little eyes so full of sadness that no one can reach them. I have seen women so physically abused they see no way out but death. I have heard the cry of children because their stomachs ache from hunger. I would much rather do something for these children who are so damaged they are not eligible for adoption because people want perfect children not ones they may actually have to work with so they go overseas to find that perfect child and leave an American child to continue to be abused or in homes where no one works with them to make them better. What is wrong with that picture? I have seen this with my open eyes. It is easy to walk around America thinking you are so high and mighty spouting out stuff you have probably never bothered to check out. I am telling you, I have been in these places, I have seen the children of America suffering and being abused just as they are in the 3rd world. But, you, you think you have all the answers, go to some of these places and tell these children how lucky they are to live in America.

Sorry, I mean no offense.


----------



## Owlie (Sep 19, 2011)

DonnieK said:


> Well, shoot, I said I was not coming back here, but Courier, my thought is that you started this post rareing for a fight. If you are so worried about the 3rd world countries, just go over there and get everything all straightened out! Until those countries decide to do something or will allow other countries to come in and take over, there is not a whole lot that we can do about them. But, my eyes have seen so much here in the US that is wrong and we are doing nothing to straighten that out either. I have seen our own little citizens, so abused they are unable to walk or to speak because of fear. I have seen their little eyes so full of sadness that no one can reach them. I have seen women so physically abused they see no way out but death. I have heard the cry of children because their stomachs ache from hunger. I would much rather do something for these children who are so damaged they are not eligible for adoption because people want perfect children not ones they may actually have to work with so they go overseas to find that perfect child and leave an American child to continue to be abused or in homes where no one works with them to make them better. What is wrong with that picture? I have seen this with my open eyes. It is easy to walk around America thinking you are so high and mighty spouting out stuff you have probably never bothered to check out. I am telling you, I have been in these places, I have seen the children of America suffering and being abused just as they are in the 3rd world. But, you, you think you have all the answers, go to some of these places and tell these children how lucky they are to live in America.
> 
> Sorry, I mean no offense.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

DonnieK said:


> Well, shoot, I said I was not coming back here, but Courier, my thought is that you started this post rareing for a fight. If you are so worried about the 3rd world countries, just go over there and get everything all straightened out! Until those countries decide to do something or will allow other countries to come in and take over, there is not a whole lot that we can do about them. But, my eyes have seen so much here in the US that is wrong and we are doing nothing to straighten that out either. I have seen our own little citizens, so abused they are unable to walk or to speak because of fear. I have seen their little eyes so full of sadness that no one can reach them. I have seen women so physically abused they see no way out but death. I have heard the cry of children because their stomachs ache from hunger. I would much rather do something for these children who are so damaged they are not eligible for adoption because people want perfect children not ones they may actually have to work with so they go overseas to find that perfect child and leave an American child to continue to be abused or in homes where no one works with them to make them better. What is wrong with that picture? I have seen this with my open eyes. It is easy to walk around America thinking you are so high and mighty spouting out stuff you have probably never bothered to check out. I am telling you, I have been in these places, I have seen the children of America suffering and being abused just as they are in the 3rd world. But, you, you think you have all the answers, go to some of these places and tell these children how lucky they are to live in America.
> 
> Sorry, I mean no offense.


:thumbup: My eyes have seen also.


----------



## Owlie (Sep 19, 2011)

DonnieK said:


> I have had to wait and think about what I wanted to say to you Courier and what I have to say also covers everyone who reads your post and jumps in saying things that could be very hurtful to others.
> I am one of those who buys cheap yarns when I can get them. But, I have been blessed enough to have friends who have supplied me with some very nice yarns also.
> The type of yarn I use does not tell anyone that I am a Christian or a non-Christian. But, to put people down in one breath and then say you are a Christian in another breath, is just wrong. It really sounded like you think because you can afford to be selective in your choice of yarn makes you a better Christian because you don't buy yarn produced by children or slave labor. How do you know who is producing your yarn. I mean just have a look at what we have found out about Progressive Insurance. I have it today, tomorrow I won't. If you don't know about it, look it up. I go to a church that believes Christians are kind, loving, giving, people who give what they can give. Our members do not spit on the widows or the ones who get a little penitence for all the years we worked and paid in and our employers paid into, and call that good. Yet, I receive only $16.00 per month for food. My doctor bills no longer mean anything, my auto insurance does not count, my registration for vehicle does not count, auto repairs do not count (I spent over $400.00 to have my car fixed), so don't talk about things you know nothing of, and don't pass judgements on people who are doing their best to keep yarn ahead enough to do their charity knitting and share their stash with others who are in the same boat.
> Most of the people you talk about would be telling you to hush because of fear of losing that money from their job, no matter the long hours or the little pay, because that little something to them is better than nothing.
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Owlie (Sep 19, 2011)

*And the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.*

It is mostly the poor man / woman who does all the donating and helping not the rich man / woman.

Just like our Donnie.

God Bless our Donnie and everyone other person like her.


----------



## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Comparing children working on a family farm to children working in mills or factories is like comparing apples to oranges..not at all the same.

The children who help out with a family farm harvest are helping a family "investment" while the child working in a factory only helps the corporation that owns the mill and NOT his family.

I'm sorry that you think this is a season "rant" but it is something I detest. Why should third world children be treated any differently than we treat our own children or grandchildren? Would you want your children or grandchildren to toil in factories or mills instead of getting an education? Would you want your elderly grandparents to be forced into labor? Of course not! Yet we American's look the other way when these situations are literally forced upon those in 3rd world countries.

We scream when our own children are kidnapped and sold into a life in the sex trade but we don't think about children who are being sold into the "industrial" industry.


----------



## Lostie (May 2, 2013)

MzKnitCro said:


> Live within your means, and do what you can.


 :thumbup: I took umbrage at this remark, then reconisidered. This is what we all do


----------



## jinx (Feb 12, 2011)

inishowen said:


> sometimes courier likes to light the touch paper, and stand back!


 :thumbup:


----------



## Lostie (May 2, 2013)

One small remark

It's funny how I am presuming we all have children and grandchildren, and naturally wish to protect them: which is quite right, but we somehow imagine that others don't have the same feelings about their children

It's funny how we admire our forebears who had big families yet by a mysterious accident we have somehow not 
had as many. it's funny how those who do decide to go the other way and have loads of children are the subject of real life programmes

its funny how we have the means to afford the ability to copy something that we like to do, but also take offence when our quaint occupation is misunderstood by others

its funny how we extend our arms to others arriving in this very place, assuring them that we, too, have the guilt of tons of stuff that we really shouldn't and we share stories about how we attempt to hide our guilt from others

There you go. If you wonder what I'm on about, it's called irony. The "we" does not mean "i" am not included in this vast generalisation.

I shall now stand back, metaphorically speaking,and await the ritual stoning


----------



## Lil Kristie (Nov 25, 2011)

DonnieK said:


> Well, shoot, I said I was not coming back here, but Courier, my thought is that you started this post rareing for a fight. If you are so worried about the 3rd world countries, just go over there and get everything all straightened out! Until those countries decide to do something or will allow other countries to come in and take over, there is not a whole lot that we can do about them. But, my eyes have seen so much here in the US that is wrong and we are doing nothing to straighten that out either. I have seen our own little citizens, so abused they are unable to walk or to speak because of fear. I have seen their little eyes so full of sadness that no one can reach them. I have seen women so physically abused they see no way out but death. I have heard the cry of children because their stomachs ache from hunger. I would much rather do something for these children who are so damaged they are not eligible for adoption because people want perfect children not ones they may actually have to work with so they go overseas to find that perfect child and leave an American child to continue to be abused or in homes where no one works with them to make them better. What is wrong with that picture? I have seen this with my open eyes. It is easy to walk around America thinking you are so high and mighty spouting out stuff you have probably never bothered to check out. I am telling you, I have been in these places, I have seen the children of America suffering and being abused just as they are in the 3rd world. But, you, you think you have all the answers, go to some of these places and tell these children how lucky they are to live in America.
> 
> Sorry, I mean no offense.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I have seen these children myself also. To me any child is precious, whether or not whole in body, mind or spirit. When I had my children, I always told the doctor that I didn't care if the baby was a boy or a girl, healthy or not, just as long as the baby arrived to be loved and cherished and nourished. No matter how long upon this earth.


----------



## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

courier770 said:


> Comparing children working on a family farm to children working in mills or factories is like comparing apples to oranges..not at all the same.
> 
> The children who help out with a family farm harvest are helping a family "investment" while the child working in a factory only helps the corporation that owns the mill and NOT his family.
> 
> ...


I don't think you understand at all.
Economic embargoes simply dont work.
You seem to think that simply by not buying yarn from China, the problem will be solved.

Do you not see? Can you not comprehend? Cutting of their lifeline is not the answer.

Ask yourself why these children work, 
they work for food.

Ask yourself, do the mothers of these children have any alternative other than watch their babes go to work? 
They have no voice.

Did you know that women in both India and China have been jailed for speaking out on behalf of human rights? 
Perhaps you could direct your energies in supporting them in their efforts to change their world.

Abhorrent judgement of your fellow KP members is no answer.

Many times in other posts you have reprimanded us soundly for buying yarn from China and Turkey.
Your lowly opinion of us matters not a jot, you are but an empty noise.
Please redeem yourself by actually doing something to help. 
There are many ways


----------



## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

NO these children do NOT work for food, that's the sad part. They are NOT paid enough to provide food for their families. this is like saying that child prostitutes help feed their families, the exploitation is the heart of the matter. I won't feed the "monsters" (corporations) that fuel their profits in such a manner.


----------



## Kathie (Mar 29, 2011)

tryalot said:


> I don't think you understand at all.
> Economic embargoes simply dont work.
> You seem to think that simply by not buying yarn from China, the problem will be solved.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup:

These children are contributing to their families welfare. They aren't buying Ipods with the pittance they are paid.


----------



## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

NO these children are paid pennies for toiling hard in jobs that most adults wouldn't take on for t he pay or conditions. Thank you for pointing out that my opinion is "lowly" and not worthy of your comment. To me that says you will gladly help support the profits of companies that offer you cheap yarn at the price of children doing back breaking, not to mention dangerous work. Remind me to NOT hire you to watch over MY grandchildren.

We are all entitled to our opinions and hopefully those opinions are based on knowledge of the facts...not just the price at the cashiers station.

You live with your choices, I live with mine.


----------



## Lolly12 (Oct 10, 2012)

:thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

courier770 said:


> NO these children are paid pennies for toiling hard in jobs that most adults wouldn't take on for t he pay or conditions. Thank you for pointing out that my opinion is "lowly" and not worthy of your comment. To me that says you will gladly help support the profits of companies that offer you cheap yarn at the price of children doing back breaking, not to mention dangerous work. Remind me to NOT hire you to watch over MY grandchildren.
> 
> We are all entitled to our opinions and hopefully those opinions are based on knowledge of the facts...not just the price at the cashiers station.
> 
> You live with your choices, I live with mine.


I'm hoping this means you will now stop complaining about the problem and find something to do about it which will actually help.
Please let us know what that might be.
Meanwhile please stop razing people with nasty comments, you are hurting some who do a great deal to help others, they don't deserve your all encompassing condemnation


----------



## Lolly12 (Oct 10, 2012)

:thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## inishowen (May 28, 2011)

I buy all my yarn in charity shops. I've been on this forum a long time, and Courier does open controversal topics now and again. Please don't be offended courier. I admire your strength of character.


----------



## frogzone (Nov 5, 2012)

courier770 said:


> I'm probably going to upset some people when I open this "can of worms"... but let the "uncanning" begin! We all want yarns at bargain basement prices..as long as those "slave wages" aren't being paid to one of OUR family members! The pittance paid to child workers, forced and "slave" laborers..won't even buy them a bowl of rice! Would we settle for these conditions for our own families? Not on your life!
> 
> There's "cheap yarn" and then there is just "cheap life". It's a shame that so many use the excuse "I can't afford anything else" when opting to purchase yarns that utilize child/forced and SLAVE labor.
> 
> I will never allow a dime of my money to go into the coffers of a company that allow the weak, the young and the infirm to be exploited..most "true" Christians won't. Think about your choices and the impacts those choices have.


Please can you direct me to the part on the yarn label, where is says slave labour used in the production of this yarn.....

Why does the western world believe that they know what is best for everyone else... Consider this

In a small village the women gather by the edge of the river, they bathe their children and wash their clothes. Before long a charity equips the village with a generator and fuel tank, happy that they have improved the lives of the village . They return a year later, there is no bustle in the village , no children are bathed in the river, no women gather to wash their clothes. Half the houses are empty. On further investigation the remaining villagers where those who cold afford to stay and pay for the fuel for the generator, to run the lighting,washing machines and the trappings of a modern world....
It was not so long ago that we were sending children up chimneys and into the mills and pitts, how easy it is to say I will not support this.... If enough people stop buying what would happen to the families who have no other work, who just scrape a living. The answer is simple they die... Fact.


----------



## taypol (Mar 16, 2013)

I agree with the above too. It is far too complicated an issue to say to people not to buy cheap yarns, for the very reasons that others have given. As has been said - your approach would go some way to removing these workers incomes. The way to go is surely to campaign for better conditions for these workers. Lobby the companies if you know who they are. It is a bit of a leap to then cover yourself by saying you are a Christian. Being a Christian is fine if that is what you believe. But it does not give carte blanche to making sweeping statements and put people down for buying what they can afford. Maybe being a Christian should encourage more consideration and more understanding, tolerant, comments?


----------



## ripping yarnz (Jun 28, 2013)

I see it but I don't believe it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Courier, buy a soapbox and find a convenient park and tell the world what you think and feel right there! KP is not, I repeat, not the forum for this kind of bullying rant ... it's divisive, unkind and wholly uncalled for. Now, back to my knitting ...


----------



## Julie98 (Jan 19, 2013)

There are two sides to this.
On one hand NONE of us agree to slave labour and child neglect. The problem is massive and in some ways may do more harm than good in trying to tackle it.
On the other hand, if the cheap yarn is purchased (for some people they are genuinely on a low income and knitting is their lifeline and they can only afford this) they, like myself may use the yarn (as I do) to knit for a needy child/charity elsewhere. If the cheap yarn was taken away other charities could suffer.
It is good this topic has been mentioned as perhaps we will all stand back and respect/think next time we purchase our yarn, being cheap or expensive.
I think we will all agree..if yarn was taken from this earth, it would be totally catastrophic for us on KP!


----------



## inkasmum (Mar 29, 2011)

Well put. And that is why I do my best to buy artisan yarn.


----------



## whataknitwit (May 1, 2011)

Unless you are in a position to buy a fleece from a sheep farmer or keep sheep yourself, are able to spin the wool yourself you can never be certain that any wool you buy whether cheap or expensive is ethically produced. 

While I'm sure the majority of people would not wish to support slave labour it's a fact of life that it happens. In countries where there is no social security, if the only way of earning a few pennies is by children working to help put food on the table then isn't that better than starvation? It certainly doesn't make it right. 

It's not that long ago in the so called civilized countries that child labour was considered the norm. 

If we don't agree with it then we have to campaign against it, not cut off the only means of poor people in other countries buying food.


----------



## cydneyjo (Aug 5, 2011)

A number of the Lion Brand yarns are made in the USA. Vanna White gave $1,000,000 of profits from her yarn line (made here) to St. Jude's.


----------



## sheila burns (Aug 21, 2011)

Good point! Maybe you could give us a short listing of some of those to "avoid". I understand yarn can be expensive. I watch for sales on the good stuff and sometimes have great luck at the thrift store.


----------



## mary139 (Jul 24, 2011)

:thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## LondonChris (Sep 28, 2012)

Courier. You are lucky to be in the position that you can 'spin your own yarn.' Some of us HAVE TO queue in stores to buy so called cheap yarn as they don't have the finances to buy 'good' yarns. I, like many on here appreciate what you are saying but have no choice. On the other side if we did not buy these goods where would the children their minuscule salaries? They may not have much but it allows them to eat and thank goodness they don't know any different. In an ideal world ALL children would have 3 square meals and an education, unfortunately that is not always the case all around the world. So if us buying so called cheap goods so be it. That's enough from me, I was in a good mood before I opened up KP this morning. Think I will close down and do some knitting, for charity! Sorry if I have offended anyone but had to comment.


----------



## Joyce19 (Aug 25, 2012)

I would like to know how we are supposed to know how much our yarn cost to actually produce. We tend to think if we paid a lot for our yarn (and anything else) the workers got paid well - sorry this is not true! 

It isn't so long ago that Nike and several other status goods were found to be using 'slave' labour to produce their goods. Where do you think the profits went?

Unless you can go to the source each time you buy anything you have no idea how and by whom it was actually made and how much profit was made at the workers expense.


----------



## jonibee (Nov 3, 2011)

We all have choices whether to support a cause or not..we can't be the "watch dog of the world" because we have our own populas that are poor, sick, down and out, homeless, drug addictive and what ever else falls into this category. We buy what we can afford and someone is making money off our purchases be it the mfg.than the person who works there..yes it's not fair but some would have no other means of support ..their culture is different than ours and what ever they make is needed. It's all well and good to say don't buy this because of what the current issue is...but that is the choice of the purchaser whether or not to purchase. There are many ways to do good be it donations of time,food, money, giving of ones crafts, clothing etc. Let it be the choice of the giver..and let them decide as to whether or not they are offended.


----------



## Gypsycream (Nov 23, 2011)

I do agree Courier that child/slave labour shouldn't exist in an idea world. But you have to remember we are not living in this ideal world.

Recently a factory in Bangladesh collapsed killing and maiming many factory workers who were producing items of clothing for Primark. There was an outcry from the west about the amount of wages these poor workers received to provide us with cheap throw away garments.

A reporter interviewed a survivor and questioned her about her wages and she said that what the west didn't realise was that if we stopped buying the garments out of protest for them they would have no jobs at all and having a little money was a whole lot better than having no money at all.

There was then a programme filmed in Pakistan I believe which showed children as young as 3 scavenging in rubbish dumps as big as England for whatever they could find, use or sell for recycling. Is that a better way to live?

I don't agree with slave labour, I really don't think anyone does or would wish their children to work under such conditions. But its a case of needs must for these poor unfortunate families. I would happily pay more for anything produced in order to give a better living to the hard work gone into producing these items, but you can bet your bottom dollar the workers wont receive the extra but some fat boss or government official will.


----------



## mac.worrall (Jun 24, 2011)

tryalot said:


> I'm not getting in to your discussion other than only this
> 
> Just remember this, if not for the pittance. There would be nothing! That's nothing,
> 
> ...


I agree absolutely.
What information do you have,please?


----------



## indylex (Jul 5, 2013)

Oh how I agree but how are we to know that what we are getting comes from an ethical source. I tend to go for quality yarns which won't be the cheapest though I do look for discontinued prices within that but take Noro yarns for instance. Fabulous yarns from Japan but how do I know the conditions the yarn is made in? In the UK we have brands of clothes and we know that they are made in unethical conditions so I for one buoycott them.


----------



## martina (Jun 24, 2012)

Some years ago I remember the head of a large international charity saying " Working for a bowl of rice per day isn't good, but it is better than no rice at all."


----------



## hellothere (Sep 19, 2011)

I agree that Courier has raised a complex issue. 

I do avoid yarns made in countries where I know they are products of child labor. Many of these yarns are inferior as per the complaints I have seen on this Forum. But I also can understand someone with limited means using these yarns to do good in this world with her charity knitting. I think we have to take advantage of our opportunities such as sales of quality yarns. 

And I for one would really like to know which yarns are made in the US and patronize such companies. I know KnitPicks yarns are mostly from Peru and I can only hope that NAFTA regulations keep their workers from the horrors that even the US experienced a little more than a hundred years ago. (Remember the Triangle Shirt Fire and even more recently the fire at a chicken factory in Arkansas where workers died because they were locked into their place of employment.) 

Meanwhle I do think we send a message if we avoid yarns where corporate evil cannot see beyond their own greed and not witness the humanity of the people struggling just to live. I think we have one more situation where we in the West, and especially in the US, are more blessed than we realize.

As I wrote, this is a complex issue and we each make decisions within the possibilities and limitations our our individual situations.


----------



## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

Owlie said:


> *And the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.*
> 
> It is mostly the poor man / woman who does all the donating and helping not the rich man / woman.
> 
> ...


----------



## Celt Knitter (Jul 13, 2011)

Instead of making unsupported allegations about "cheap yarn", be specific and name names! This is one of a number of issues with your post: 
Why are you assuming that anyone on here supports child labor?
Poverty is relative. When I was working in China several years ago, $250.00 a month was a decent livable wage. I could buy a meal or have my hair cut and a massage for $2.00!
What you consider "cheap yarn" is an economic lifeline for those families. Take that away and they have nothing.
It's irrelevant whether you are a mother/grandmother. Being human and humane is what should count.
You seem to think that Christianity has the monopoly on moral and ethical behavior. Check your history...it has been the most predatory and exploitative of the major religions. 
Geography is not your strong point....Inishowen is from N Ireland...no Walmart or Hobby Lobby. The "big box" stores are less common in European countries as people in those countries are less addicted to "junk." Moreover, in the league of charitable giving world wide, Ireland, as a percentage of GDP, is far more generous than the US. 
You are clearly in a privileged situation if you have the resources to spin your own yarn but that does not give you the right to be so judgmental about others in a less fortunate position.

Instead of antagonizing people on here, lobby your politician and the companies that exploit people.
If you ask our help in combating exploitation, providing you supply verifiable evidence, many people on here would support your cause.



courier770 said:


> inishowen, I resent that remark! I'm a mother and a grandmother and I sure don't want to think about my grandchildren toiling in the textile industry..maybe you feel differently about your grandchildren. As for "lighting a torch and standing back"...at least I have convictions and I'm not afraid to state them. When I'm in the mood for "cheap" yarn, I spin my own and don't depend on children in third wold countries to slave for pennies to provide me with yarn. May I ask what YOU do? Oh wait I suppose that means standing in line at WalMart or Hobby Lobby to purchase yarns made in 3rd world countries by children or that use valuable fossil fuels so you don't actually have to launder something by hand.
> 
> Two can play the "assumption" game...bring your lunch lady, your insults are childish!


----------



## CrochetorKnit (Feb 15, 2013)

courier770 said:


> I'm probably going to upset some people when I open this "can of worms"... but let the "uncanning" begin! We all want yarns at bargain basement prices..as long as those "slave wages" aren't being paid to one of OUR family members! The pittance paid to child workers, forced and "slave" laborers..won't even buy them a bowl of rice! Would we settle for these conditions for our own families? Not on your life!
> 
> There's "cheap yarn" and then there is just "cheap life". It's a shame that so many use the excuse "I can't afford anything else" when opting to purchase yarns that utilize child/forced and SLAVE labor.
> 
> I will never allow a dime of my money to go into the coffers of a company that allow the weak, the young and the infirm to be exploited..most "true" Christians won't. Think about your choices and the impacts those choices have.


Good morning - do you know of any particular companies which use these types of labor? I'm sure we'd all be interested in knowing. Thanks for your input.


----------



## kknott4957 (Mar 31, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Purchasing goods from countries that allow child/forced/slave labor can in no way be compared to welfare. I'm sorry but there is a huge difference..
> 
> As an emerging nation no one protected our children from such horrors as the fires that took lives of children working in factories. We however know better.
> 
> ...


----------



## BobnDejasMom (Jun 2, 2011)

We have the largest wool warehouse in the country here in my town. The owner told my husband(a reporter)that most of the Made in America yarns we buy are not produced using only American wool. That yarns are most often made from fibers from a combination of counties.
We don't all have the time, or in my case, physical capacity to wash, card and spin our own wool....And yes, I did it when I was younger and stronger.
To say that all wool from some of these countries is being made by slave labor is an unfair blanket statement.
I resent that we are judged by someone who says they don't live on this planet


----------



## elaineadams (Oct 17, 2011)

My comments on this topic are that I think everyone needs to go back to the history books and see what children as young as 5 years of age in the now developed countries were doing in the not so distant past. Its ok for us to shout from our comfy homes, well paid jobs etc. But look at situation realistically. Whilst I agree that organisations do not pay their workers in under developed countries the same as they do in developed countries, many of them pay the local rates for a specific area, in a specific country. Again I would agree that as there are no employment regulations in the under-developed countries, organisations do take advantage of the number of hours people are willing to work. There are a number of organisations, while paying parents very little, they do pay for children to be educated at a basic level. These countries are developing and we should not interfere and try to push the development along. Give it time...its taken more than a 100years for out countries to get out of the child slave labour situation and ensure that all children get a free education between the ages of 5 and 16 years. Anyone who feels that badly about the worlds underdeveloped countries and child labour, could always club together with friends and family to sponsor a child through education.


----------



## thumper5316 (Oct 7, 2011)

tryalot said:


> I'm not getting in to your discussion other than only this
> 
> Just remember this, if not for the pittance. There would be nothing! That's nothing,
> 
> ...


And don't compare what is the norm for you and try to apply it to their lives. There is no comparison. As tralot says, focus your energies on other things.


----------



## AnjiCat (Dec 6, 2011)

Celt Knitter said:


> Instead of making unsupported allegations about "cheap yarn", be specific and name names! This is one of a number of issues with your post:
> Why are you assuming that anyone on here supports child labor?
> Poverty is relative. When I was working in China several years ago, $250.00 a month was a decent livable wage. I could buy a meal or have my hair cut and a massage for $2.00!
> What you consider "cheap yarn" is an economic lifeline for those families. Take that away and they have nothing.
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

Lil Kristie said:


> Yes, well said. And herein lies the "but." I am disabled. I have Congestive Heart Failure, Diabetes, Chronic Bronchitis, Asthma. I'm on continuous oxygen. I live with my DD and SIL and GD's as I can't live by myself with my health problems. I am only receiving SSI. I worked 11 years as a school bus driver for the handicapped. That doesn't pay into Social Security. So therefore, even though I'm disabled, I can only draw SSI.
> 
> I don't have money to afford the quality yarns. I'd love to have them to use. Alas, that option isn't available for me or my DD and SIL. My DD is a caregiver for me. We buy what we can afford. Most of that when it is on sale.
> 
> I don't like child/forced and slave labor myself. But a lot of people who crochet/knit can only afford cheaper yarns. And not because they are cheap people. I resent being lumped into a category that is willingly supporting child/forced and slave labor.


I agree with you. We should not be judged by the quality of yarn we buy.


----------



## flhusker (Feb 17, 2011)

tryalot said:


> I'm not getting in to your discussion other than only this
> 
> Just remember this, if not for the pittance. There would be nothing! That's nothing,
> 
> ...


I so agree.

Let me add.

I have two wonderful GDs that have Downs Syndrome. One is 18 and the other is 17. They have completed their time in our education system. Now they either get a low (slave wage) job or sit at home doing nothing. The "slave wage" job is a better choice as they at least feel they are doing something. Everyone needs to feel they are making a contribution.

If you have a solution to this issue then go forward but don't take something away without a replacement.


----------



## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

MzKnitCro said:


> Live within your means, and do what you can.


I think you put it well. We have no idea how others live or what good things they do for others, regardless of the type of yarn they buy. We do the best we can.


----------



## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

DonnieK said:


> I have had to wait and think about what I wanted to say to you Courier and what I have to say also covers everyone who reads your post and jumps in saying things that could be very hurtful to others.
> I am one of those who buys cheap yarns when I can get them. But, I have been blessed enough to have friends who have supplied me with some very nice yarns also.
> The type of yarn I use does not tell anyone that I am a Christian or a non-Christian. But, to put people down in one breath and then say you are a Christian in another breath, is just wrong. It really sounded like you think because you can afford to be selective in your choice of yarn makes you a better Christian because you don't buy yarn produced by children or slave labor. How do you know who is producing your yarn. I mean just have a look at what we have found out about Progressive Insurance. I have it today, tomorrow I won't. If you don't know about it, look it up. I go to a church that believes Christians are kind, loving, giving, people who give what they can give. Our members do not spit on the widows or the ones who get a little penitence for all the years we worked and paid in and our employers paid into, and call that good. Yet, I receive only $16.00 per month for food. My doctor bills no longer mean anything, my auto insurance does not count, my registration for vehicle does not count, auto repairs do not count (I spent over $400.00 to have my car fixed), so don't talk about things you know nothing of, and don't pass judgements on people who are doing their best to keep yarn ahead enough to do their charity knitting and share their stash with others who are in the same boat.
> Most of the people you talk about would be telling you to hush because of fear of losing that money from their job, no matter the long hours or the little pay, because that little something to them is better than nothing.
> ...


You said it very well. Life is very complex - we shouldn't judge one another. Most people are doing the best they can.


----------



## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Purchasing goods from countries that allow child/forced/slave labor can in no way be compared to welfare. I'm sorry but there is a huge difference..
> 
> As an emerging nation no one protected our children from such horrors as the fires that took lives of children working in factories. We however know better.
> 
> ...


Courier770,
Perhaps that is the cause to which you are devoted. There are many tragic situations, and one cannot possibly be involved in each one. Don't criticize others. You have no idea how much time, concern, etc. others are giving to the many other problems in the world, such as child hunger in foreign countries, child hunger in the home country, animal abuse, endangered species, disaster relief, abortion, poverty, illness, unclean water, dishonesty in government, foster care, child abuse, homelessness, battered women, wounded soldiers, etc. Just because someone isn't working actively in your particular cause doesn't mean he/she should be judged by you or anyone else.


----------



## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

flhusker said:


> I so agree.
> 
> Let me add.
> 
> ...


And your granddaughters ARE making a contribution! So are you in your support for them.


----------



## mary139 (Jul 24, 2011)

Well said. 


bonbf3 said:


> Courier770,
> Perhaps that is the cause to which you are devoted. There are many tragic situations, and one cannot possibly be involved in each one. Don't criticize others. You have no idea how much time, concern, etc. others are giving to the many other problems in the world, such as child hunger in foreign countries, child hunger in the home country, animal abuse, endangered species, disaster relief, abortion, poverty, illness, unclean water, dishonesty in government, foster care, child abuse, homelessness, battered women, wounded soldiers, etc. Just because someone isn't working actively in your particular cause doesn't mean he/she should be judged by you or anyone else.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbdown: :thumbup:


----------



## roseknit (Apr 2, 2011)

How do you know that the expensive yarns are not produced by child labour. We know that awful things are happening in the world, suggest you write to your congressman about it, not to the good people on this Forum, This is not a political forum, we are here to show our craft and that's all


----------



## ChrisGV (Apr 5, 2013)

courier770 said:


> I'm probably going to upset some people when I open this "can of worms"... but let the "uncanning" begin!  We all want yarns at bargain basement prices..as long as those "slave wages" aren't being paid to one of OUR family members! The pittance paid to child workers, forced and "slave" laborers..won't even buy them a bowl of rice! Would we settle for these conditions for our own families? Not on your life!
> 
> There's "cheap yarn" and then there is just "cheap life". It's a shame that so many use the excuse "I can't afford anything else" when opting to purchase yarns that utilize child/forced and SLAVE labor.
> 
> I will never allow a dime of my money to go into the coffers of a company that allow the weak, the young and the infirm to be exploited..most "true" Christians won't. Think about your choices and the impacts those choices have.


Define 'true' Christian. I guess the over 200 children's heads I have covered with knit stocking hats are ungrateful since the yarn was not handspan. Again 
Define 'true' Christian.


----------



## henhouse2011 (Feb 20, 2011)

Well said ladies. You have all made very good points worth our thoughtful consideration.
I submit that we need to look closer to home. Many of our safety nets are being eroded by the government in the name of balancing the budget while giving even more to the top one percent. Some states have introduced laws to lower the minimum age for child labor. The minimum wage for adults hasn't been raised to anywhere near the cost of living while Congress gives itself 13 raises in the same time, the best insurance, allows itself to do insider trading from their own Congressional offices while sending Martha to jail for the same. Etc. etc. etc.
Let us get back to knitting, yarn that is. Knitting up the woes of the world are a personal endeavor we do what we can, when we can, where we are.


----------



## LUVCRAFTS (Feb 6, 2013)

Tryalot.....truer words were never spoken!


----------



## AnjiCat (Dec 6, 2011)

Courier770, it is evident that you are passionate about this subject. I think it is safe to say that everybody would prefer the world to be a place where no child need live being hungry or frightened every day.

I believe Ghandi said 'be the change you want to see in the world'

Instead of using extremely vague inflammatory statements to condemn the rest of us, why not use a website like http://www.change.org/en-GB/start-a-petition to start a petition for the governments of the countries where this happens and then start a thread with the details, and links to articles that evidence your cause then ask for our support.

You might be surprised at how much positive reaction you might get :mrgreen:


----------



## jonibee (Nov 3, 2011)

We had better take a look at some USA companies that have their goods made in other countries because of the cheap labor than bring them back to here and sell them at exorbitant prices..all in the name of profit...


----------



## Chezl (Mar 12, 2012)

I always buy everything as cheap as possible not just yarn. I am on a disability pension and I have heaps of pets to look after. I get my yarn from thrift shops by either buying yarn or buying items that I undo to knit into something else. I get charity by receiving food items or food vouchers and I give back by knitting for the homeless and by volunteering for the Salvos. I definitely can't buy anything but the cheapest items and when grocery shopping, I buy the generic items unless the known brands are on sale and cheaper than the generic items. I don't check which country anything comes from because it doesn't help me to know because I can't afford anything else. In a perfect world, I would be buying groceries that are Australian made to support our economy but these items usually aren't the cheapest so I will continue to buy cheap regardless and I will keep on knitting with whatever yarn I can get my hands on for the cheapest price possible.


----------



## sbel3555 (Apr 11, 2011)

This topic is political in nature which is not allowed on this forum. Kindly find another venue for this discussion. And besides, who are you to tell people what they can or cannot purchase?


----------



## Topsy (May 7, 2011)

yourmother306 said:


> How do we know what yarns are in question?


My question also.


----------



## martina (Jun 24, 2012)

Chezi
You seem to be doing the best you can with what you have. We can only hope that more people do this, it would make the world a much better place. You are a good example of life in the real world. Well done.


----------



## bobctwn65 (Jul 27, 2012)

the answer to all these problems will one day be solved when the kingdom of God becomes a reality and Christ Jesus Rules.. when the earth becomes a paradise. and selfishness and greed no longer exist....


----------



## Carmela51 (Jan 12, 2013)

How sad!


----------



## joycevv (Oct 13, 2011)

yourmother306 said:


> How do we know what yarns are in question?


My question too.


----------



## obxamom (Apr 21, 2013)

Yikes! Well then i suppose you avoid shopping at all the big stores for any of your goods..groceries etc. Target. Walmart .Kroger .marsh. home depot.menards.Michaels ..Joe Anne... as they all are big corporations and support one or another morally questionable things if not then one might label you hypocritical! If you have strong convictions then good for you keep them and stay with them as do I have strong convictions but if that's the case you should grow your own food..rise your own animals .....make your own clothes and the list goes on. Yes we should try to avoid corruption and the companies that do bug its darn near impossible because no matter even how ethical a. company they may get part of their goods from a corrupted company. The best thing one can do is be an educated consumer and when we find that out write the company and tell them why you will not patronize their company and then inform others in a charitable non condiming way and let others decide. now your entitled to share your opinion but when others may have a differing opinion it doesn't give cause to rake them over the coals. Let God be the judge as to weather one is a Christian or not as Jesus says judge not lest you be judged. What are people supposed to do who can't seriously afford to buy local hanks of yarn for $20-30 a hank..should they stop knitting all together maybe giving up something they enjoy....what is your solution/? One might think if you are going to say such things first provide documented proof of the corrupt companies and then provide an alternative solution.....? This knitting forum should be a place of encouragement, support and not bashing there is enough of negativity elsewhere can't we let this be a haven ? There I've had my say. Maybe the best solution is to all together stop replying to mean negative posts ignore bad behavior and it goes away. There is a way to share your thoughts and to do it in a non offensive way. If you feel I've offended you then please feel free to PM me and we can continue but bashing on a forum with thousands of members on my end will not be tolerated by me.


----------



## susiq (Dec 10, 2011)

Ladies get out your spinning wheels and go to work. Tell me what yarn is made in the U.S.? I love the expensive yarn but I cannot afford to give away a pair of socks that cost 20 dollars. Have a good day and know that the Lord made it.


----------



## NanaKnits4Us (Jan 28, 2011)

Well, it certainly was a "can of worms" and it makes me feel sorry that I even read this series of posts. It seems that Courier770 was intentionally trying to stir up controversy. I joined KP because I thought its members were kind, helpful and supportive to each other. Introducing this subject and then harshly arguing and insulting others who express an opinion is just nasty. Shame.


----------



## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

ChrisGV said:


> Define 'true' Christian. I guess the over 200 children's heads I have covered with knit stocking hats are ungrateful since the yarn was not handspan. Again
> Define 'true' Christian.


Excellent point.


----------



## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

Chezl said:


> I always buy everything as cheap as possible not just yarn. I am on a disability pension and I have heaps of pets to look after. I get my yarn from thrift shops by either buying yarn or buying items that I undo to knit into something else. I get charity by receiving food items or food vouchers and I give back by knitting for the homeless and by volunteering for the Salvos. I definitely can't buy anything but the cheapest items and when grocery shopping, I buy the generic items unless the known brands are on sale and cheaper than the generic items. I don't check which country anything comes from because it doesn't help me to know because I can't afford anything else. In a perfect world, I would be buying groceries that are Australian made to support our economy but these items usually aren't the cheapest so I will continue to buy cheap regardless and I will keep on knitting with whatever yarn I can get my hands on for the cheapest price possible.


And you have every right to do so!


----------



## obxamom (Apr 21, 2013)

NanaKnits4Us said:


> Well, it certainly was a "can of worms" and it makes me feel sorry that I even read this series of posts. It seems that Courier770 was intentionally trying to stir up controversy. I joined KP because I thought its members were kind, helpful and supportive to each other. Introducing this subject and then harshly arguing and insulting others who express an opinion is just nasty. Shame.


Couldn't agree more !!!!!!!!


----------



## obxamom (Apr 21, 2013)

NanaKnits4Us said:


> Well, it certainly was a "can of worms" and it makes me feel sorry that I even read this series of posts. It seems that Courier770 was intentionally trying to stir up controversy. I joined KP because I thought its members were kind, helpful and supportive to each other. Introducing this subject and then harshly arguing and insulting others who express an opinion is just nasty. Shame.


Couldn't agree more !!!!!!!!


----------



## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

susiq said:


> Ladies get out your spinning wheels and go to work. Tell me what yarn is made in the U.S.? I love the expensive yarn but I cannot afford to give away a pair of socks that cost 20 dollars. Have a good day and know that the Lord made it.


 :thumbup:


----------



## Katharsiss (Apr 4, 2012)

What a hateful initial post. I'm sad.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Courier,
Rather than opening a can or worms in a confrontational manner that ends up being devisive, why not just inform us as to what you have learned about yarn produced from slave labor corporations and/or countries? Then we can each decide if we want to join with you in that cause or not. I for one cannot join every cause and cannot possibly educate myself as to every cause and need that is out there. Because we don't choose to join you in your cause does not mean that we have not found other avenues to help fill the all-too-many needs in the world. 
Gerri


----------



## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Courier,
> Rather than opening a can or worms in a confrontational manner that ends up being devisive, why not just inform us as to what you have learned about yarn produced from slave labor corporations and/or countries? Then we can each decide if we want to join with you in that cause or not. I for one cannot join every cause and cannot possibly educate myself as to every cause and need that is out there. Because we don't choose to join you in your cause does not mean that we have not found other avenues to help fill the all-too-many needs in the world.
> Gerri


 :thumbup:


----------



## Ma Kitty (Mar 15, 2013)

I think if you wish to boycott a company that sells items made by child labour is a choice you make. Questioning someone's faith if they do so is just so judgemental and against Christian values. Judge not.


----------



## Audrone (Jun 5, 2013)

Joycevv, you expressed my thoughts also, very well. Thank you!


----------



## Anna3703 (Mar 4, 2012)

Are we attending a political platform here? Or is this KNITTING PARADISE??? I'm confused !!!


----------



## ohsusana (Jun 24, 2012)

I can buy yarn for$2 from the discount shop and it is usually made in china.
I can also buy yarn from a specialty shop for $10 plus and that's made in china also. 
Does the more expensive yarn guarantee "no child labour used"? I doubt it.
If we stop buying from china, this won't help the situation for the workers over there, it will just mean there will be more suffering.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

whataknitwit said:


> Unless you are in a position to buy a fleece from a sheep farmer or keep sheep yourself, are able to spin the wool yourself you can never be certain that any wool you buy whether cheap or expensive is ethically produced.
> 
> All Fair Trade yarn is ethically produced. A couple of companies I know carry Fair Trade yarn are Bee Sweet and Darn Good Yarn. Manos del Uraguay is also Fair Trade. If you look on the label you can find the Fair Trade logo. It IS a reliable way to know that the yarn you are buying is ethically sourced.
> 
> And, by the way, what does being Christian have to do with it? Can't someone want to do some good in the world without being Christian?


----------



## K2P2 knitter (Jan 31, 2013)

This is just my personal opinion but here goes. My comments are in no way meant to offend anyone. I feel this isn't a Christian issue it is a problem that plagues the US pretty much for every thing we buy. Just about everything we purchase is made in a third world country. It is getting harder and harder to find anything made in this country. You may ask yourself why that is well I think it is because we demand such high wages because our cost of living is so high. To answer your question, yes I purchase yarn made in other countries for several reasons. My first reason is the charities I knit for will on accept acrylic items. To answer your next question yes I can afford some higher end yarn but don't choose to work with it. To answer your third question yes my spouse and I worked our butts off to have a nice retirement.


----------



## gailshirley (Sep 8, 2012)

i see a lot of christian comments posted.it leaves me feeling very sad that the man you call jesus was so humble so non judgemental, a man who worked in loving kindness for the good of mankind.most of these comments come with a very judgemental message ,it reminds me again why i left the church, this is a knitting forum not a spiritual judgement forum.my dear mother always said it is the empty kettle that makes the most noise.no apologies for this statement.


----------



## Anna3703 (Mar 4, 2012)

sbel3555 said:


> This topic is political in nature which is not allowed on this forum. Kindly find another venue for this discussion. And besides, who are you to tell people what they can or cannot purchase?


Yes, please, let's get back to knitting, after all, that is what this forum is all about...


----------



## gailshirley (Sep 8, 2012)

quote=Anna3703]Yes, please, let's get back to knitting, after all, that is what this forum is all about...[/quote]

absolutely about knitting my 3 beautiful grandchildren ages 10,6 and 4 have discovered mr bean .i have just made 3 mr beans bears.my grandchildren are so happy and the bears go where they go .knitting gives so much pleasure to all.


----------



## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

This has been a thought-provoking discussion. Let's not let it deteriorate into labeling each other (Christian or non) or being "offended" or "resentful." Thanks to those who open my eyes. We are all connected, and solutions to all the world's injustices are obviously complex. Easy solutions usually have limited value, but sometimes one step is better than none. I believe it is one's perspective which makes a person more compassionate and wisely effective. 
If we want to be considerate of others, can we start with each other?


----------



## Bitsee (Mar 11, 2013)

Chezl said:


> I always buy everything as cheap as possible not just yarn. I am on a disability pension and I have heaps of pets to look after. I get my yarn from thrift shops by either buying yarn or buying items that I undo to knit into something else. I get charity by receiving food items or food vouchers and I give back by knitting for the homeless and by volunteering for the Salvos. I definitely can't buy anything but the cheapest items and when grocery shopping, I buy the generic items unless the known brands are on sale and cheaper than the generic items. I don't check which country anything comes from because it doesn't help me to know because I can't afford anything else. In a perfect world, I would be buying groceries that are Australian made to support our economy but these items usually aren't the cheapest so I will continue to buy cheap regardless and I will keep on knitting with whatever yarn I can get my hands on for the cheapest price possible.


I am not disabled but I am on Social Security. I have and still am, at times, in this situation. I spent a few years living on only $427.00 a month and I worked to earn every penny. I have a good education and am quite experienced in the work force but could not find decent a job for the life of me. People knew I knitted and how much I enjoyed it. I was given yarn, some new some partially finished projects which I took apart. Yes I did use some of the yarn for my own, selfish, purpose but I also knitted scarves and hats and gave them away. I received no money for the hats and scarves that I gave away. I also did not receive any credit or a thank you as I left them at non-profit thrift stores or just plain gave them to people who looked like they needed something to cheer them up.

I believe that things are not going to change in other countries unless their government changes. I remember in the 50' and 60's our country helping other "poor" countries. It was a big deal then to send money or whatever was being asked for. Well we are still "helping" the same countries and they don't seem to be any better off from our "hand outs". Our country is, I believe, the youngest country in the world and look where we are. By refusing to purchase goods from other countries will not help the workers rise any higher in their earning abilities.

If you don't like it, change it, if you can't change it by yourself then find someone who can help you. If you are just going to complain without action then sthu.


----------



## Deanne (Jul 21, 2011)

Gee Courier thanks for putting a wet blanket on knitting, something I love to do. If I had to be sure the yarn I was buying came from places that assure the type of working conditions you deem acceptable then I guess I would have to give up knitting because I CAN'T afford them. I enjoying reading Knitting Paradise from start to finish but every time you stir the pot with your rants it ruins it for me. You definitely are a yarn snob but you are no better than me. I buy what I can afford to do the craft I love. Please, continue to be your high and mighty self all you want but stop putting the rest of us down for buying what we can afford.


----------



## susieba (Apr 30, 2012)

I take offense to "true Christians" as the only good in people. Have you never know anyone other than a Christian as a good person? Have you never know a bad person who was a Christian? It is a comment that shouldn't be used, especially if you think about what is being said.


----------



## goldnote (Jun 10, 2011)

And this is why I don't usually read the items in this section. I come here to find out about knitting. I go to church, synagogue, shrine, whatever, for moral teaching and inspiration. There are more than one way to view any issue and I choose to find my own after listening to other views with RESPECT. It is rare that a rant will change anyone's opinion.


----------



## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

It is so true that whether you buy high end yarn or low end, it is likely from China or Turkey. The only difference is how much the profit the label gets. When I buy new clothes I cannot find anything in my price range that is made in America. I do make a huge effort to buy American made when possible but I have to shop within my means. I don't see how this makes me a Christian or non Christian.
For two days last week I had three girls come to my house asking if I had any work for them. They were 5th graders. I asked why they needed the money and they responded school supplies. I taught school so I know that social workers can help them. I also know that kids feel the stigma from that charity. We agreed on a price and a chore. They did not ask for minimum wage, only a way to help their parents pay for school supplies.While they weeded a garden I looked in my old school supply closet and found some items for them. They were grateful ! Now I am expected to feel guilty for helping them? I think not!
I do the best that I can. Will continue to do so.


----------



## Mama34 (Jul 1, 2013)

Thank you DonnieK for you remarks. I agree whole heartedly with them. I went to work at age 14 and I worked 50 years. I paid into SS and felt that my retirement years would be happier than they turned out to be. I an 79 years old and I worked until about 4 years ago, still paying into SS. Now I barely have enought income to live on. My insurances along take about half of my SS check. My son is disabled and lives with me. We have just been hanging on by our fingernails to keep our heads above water. I don't think anyone in that condition (and I am sure there are more than we want to think) can afford to buy anything extra and try to buy the most inexpensive goods they can find. I have been knitting over 40 years and after retirement I couldn't afford yarn. My sister, who was a knitter, died a little over a year ago. Her daughters sent me he stash and now I have yarn to work with.

It hurts me so much knowing that such a great number of people (senios citizens included) are in the same situation and then see our President and his family take so many vacations, usting Airforce One and staying in places that cost tousands of dollars a night, when I know this is paid for by the American citizens.

Thank you again Donnie.


----------



## AnjiCat (Dec 6, 2011)

taborhills said:


> This has been a thought-provoking discussion. Let's not let it deteriorate into labeling each other (Christian or non) or being "offended" or "resentful." Thanks to those who open my eyes. We are all connected, and solutions to all the world's injustices are obviously complex. Easy solutions usually have limited value, but sometimes one step is better than none. I believe it is one's perspective which makes a person more compassionate and wisely effective.
> If we want to be considerate of others, can we start with each other?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## k l (Dec 4, 2012)

hobby lobby is a christian organization.


----------



## Bitsee (Mar 11, 2013)

NanaKnits4Us said:


> Well, it certainly was a "can of worms" and it makes me feel sorry that I even read this series of posts. It seems that Courier770 was intentionally trying to stir up controversy. I joined KP because I thought its members were kind, helpful and supportive to each other. Introducing this subject and then harshly arguing and insulting others who express an opinion is just nasty. Shame.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## hgayle (Aug 22, 2011)

taypol said:


> I agree with the above too. It is far too complicated an issue to say to people not to buy cheap yarns, for the very reasons that others have given. As has been said - your approach would go some way to removing these workers incomes. The way to go is surely to campaign for better conditions for these workers. Lobby the companies if you know who they are. It is a bit of a leap to then cover yourself by saying you are a Christian. Being a Christian is fine if that is what you believe. But it does not give carte blanche to making sweeping statements and put people down for buying what they can afford. Maybe being a Christian should encourage more consideration and more understanding, tolerant, comments?


Very nicely stated.

Also, many folks talk about buying yarn at charity shops or recycling sweaters purchased there. Did any of you see the report on 20/20 about Goodwill? They are "in our own backyard" and no better than the countries you (Courier) are talking about. Goodwill no longer gets my donations, and I won't shop there ever again. They pay a lot of their employees less than $1/hour - some as low as 22 cents/hour. I say lets take care of our own.


----------



## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

Yes, the use of the word "Christian" to mean "good person" is a mistake. All struggling Christians are not saints, and generous
people in all the countries that are represented on this blog may be Jews or Buddhists or others. We are all in this together.


----------



## BeadsbyBeadz (Dec 19, 2012)

My background is in budgetary analysis and whereas I don't have more time today to research this subject, here are a few web sites for your 'enjoyment.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country Some of these folks live on $9 US per month.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xixoha_textile-workers-go-on-strike-in-southern-india-over-yarn-prices_news Workers went on strike for a day because the government shut down one shift at the mill due to over abundance of yarn/thread.

http://www.faqs.org/rulings/rulings1993HQ0556793.html#b Note paragraph entitled Law and Analysis, 3rd paragraph which states that U. S. manufactured thread sent to Costa Rico and dyed becomes the product of Costa Rico since it is the last country that provided work on the thread.

http://www.tradelaw.com/coors.htm See Law and Analysis, 3rd paragraph. If two yarns are plied together, each from a different country, the country in which the intertwining or last important process in the yarn's production becomes the country of origin.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_money_do_the_workers_in_sweatshops_get_paid Salaries and info on how U.S. and Canadian manufacturers have workers produce their products for a pittance all the while charging buyers high prices.

http://www.worldvision.org/our-work/child-protection?campaign=11935146&gclid=CJzMhOjf1LgCFRSVMgodZl4A-g Only one of many organizations who are pointing out these child worker problems and solutions.

If you don't chose to read the links, so be it. You should know that based on what little research I was able to achieve within the short time available to me you should know that Made in the U. S. (which IS a foreign country to many of you) does not mean the entire product was made in this country (see tradelaws link above). A yarn from India and one from Pakistan could be purchased by an American Company (and remember this doesn't mean that company is physically located within the confines of U. S. territory) and entertwined to make a new yarn, it is considered an American yarn because that is where the last process was made.

Never go to a gun fight with a knife, and never start what on the surface seems to be an informationL debate but is actually meant to be demeaning and argumentative without facts. Debate 101. Second rule is to follow the money. Names of companies long associated as being American companies have found cheap labor in so many countries to keep their prices lower on the American as well as other markets. Third, don't believe everything you read on a label - you really don't know where it's from because of trade laws.

And you spinners? Better check where your spinning wheels were actually made and of what wood; where your corders and other materials are from; where your animal feed comes from and if you raise it, where the seed originated; where your species of animal originated and it's pedigree; and where the medications used to keep them healthy originates. Nothing we buy in these times is totally made or was made from one country. World Wide Trade stopped that many years ago.

I'm a Christian and do not need anyone questioning my values nor my heart. Many of the people on this forum have to make choices between medicine and food; others between helping their children and grandchildren in this horrible economy and would still like to knit or do other crafts. Many are restricted by what charities will accept their knitted or crocheted works can be made from. I find that keeping my own house in order is a big enough challenge without trying to rule the world. Changes can be made in these countries, but until they are, not buying the products is only further punishment and adds to their already impoverished lives.


----------



## knittingneedles (Mar 27, 2011)

tryalot said:


> I'm not getting in to your discussion other than only this
> 
> Just remember this, if not for the pittance. There would be nothing! That's nothing,
> 
> ...


Very true, everyone yells... but no one does... so if you want everyone to stop buying "cheap" yarn (FYI, I don't - I am a yarn snob for sure!!!) you need to find an alternative for the people who are exploited otherwise you have just taken away their only livelihood.


----------



## gaura (Jul 29, 2013)

courier770 said:


> I will never allow a dime of my money to go into the coffers of a company that allow the weak, the young and the infirm to be exploited..
> 
> 2nd December 1984.......Bhopal....
> 
> ...


----------



## valmac (Nov 22, 2012)

BeadsbyBeadz said:


> My background is in budgetary analysis and whereas I don't have more time today to research this subject, here are a few web sites for your 'enjoyment.'
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country Some of these folks live on $9 US per month.
> 
> ...


THANK YOU for the most objective and informative post in this thread! Now let's get back to our crafts.


----------



## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

"I find that keeping my own house in order is a big enough challenge without trying to rule the world." (BeadsbyBeadzabove)

I picture myself as a baby in a high chair banging my spoon as if it were a scepter! That's about as effective any of us *totally alone* would be as queen of the world. We really must laugh at all this, especially at our grandiose delusions.


----------



## Dowager (Jun 7, 2011)

courier770 said:


> inishowen, I resent that remark! I'm a mother and a grandmother and I sure don't want to think about my grandchildren toiling in the textile industry..maybe you feel differently about your grandchildren.


I would agree that child labor and slave labor is bad. On the other hand, if we don't buy these products, then how many children starve because they can't get even the small pittance paid in these countries? We cannot FORCE these countries to pay living wages./ Is it fair for you personally to starve children because you don't like the way that country's businesses are run? I'd rather buy what I can afford, and at least have the knowledge that I am providing a small bit of sustenance to the poor in those countries.


----------



## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

I have to agree with courier on this one. I, too, am retired after a lifetime of low paying jobs. I had to save for a good while to afford my spinning wheel, so I am aware of what it takes to do what you want on a tight budget.

Choosing to be aware of the conditions under which things are produced has to do with morality - not economics - and certainly not Christianity. One can be moral without either. And one can use humanely produced products without going broke. It requires thought and restraint on the part of the user.


----------



## AnjiCat (Dec 6, 2011)

TY Beadsbybeadz for those links, very informative :mrgreen:


----------



## cynthia387 (Oct 16, 2012)

courier770 said:


> NO these children do NOT work for food, that's the sad part. They are NOT paid enough to provide food for their families. this is like saying that child prostitutes help feed their families, the exploitation is the heart of the matter. I won't feed the "monsters" (corporations) that fuel their profits in such a manner.


My son lives and works in Pakistan. There a lot of businesses rely on children (young teenagers) to run them. Most of these children work for money so that their families can eat. My son uses a garage to repair his car that is run by children. If people like him didn't use this particular garage then the child workers would earn less and there would be less food on their tables.

There are hungry children in every country in the world. In both the U.S.A. and the U.K. the gap between the rich and poor is widening every year.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

Mama34 - Please check your facts about the President and his family vacations. First, the President must use Air Force One to travel. It has communication equipment and other protections for him that exist on no other aircraft. The fact is there are crazies out there who threaten him and his family every day. He and his family can hardly check in to the Holiday Inn. Second, he has taken far fewer vacation days than any recent president. Given the complexity and stress of his job, I think three weeks vacation is something I want him to have.


----------



## valj46 (Jul 25, 2011)

i dislike slavery but when i have been to some of these poor countries the people would starve to death if they didn't have this sort of work the U.K give millions in aid but do the poor people get it?,it just lines the pockets of the ones at the top, Its the leaders of these countries who are to blame ,we need to address the goverments ,we have many Chinese girls & Phillinpins ,Indianan's etc [ my spelling is getting worst as i get older] come over to work in our care homes the the first things they buy are mobile phones they think they are millionaires really sad, they never give a penny to charity i have noticed . making sure they have work in their countries puts abit of food on the table , I buy abit more expensive wool when i can afford it


courier770 said:


> I'm probably going to upset some people when I open this "can of worms"... but let the "uncanning" begin! We all want yarns at bargain basement prices..as long as those "slave wages" aren't being paid to one of OUR family members! The pittance paid to child workers, forced and "slave" laborers..won't even buy them a bowl of rice! Would we settle for these conditions for our own families? Not on your life!
> 
> There's "cheap yarn" and then there is just "cheap life". It's a shame that so many use the excuse "I can't afford anything else" when opting to purchase yarns that utilize child/forced and SLAVE labor.
> 
> I will never allow a dime of my money to go into the coffers of a company that allow the weak, the young and the infirm to be exploited..most "true" Christians won't. Think about your choices and the impacts those choices have.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Courrier--you have voiced this concern numerous times. It is principled and I agree with that principle, in principle. 

However, conditions are not that straightforward. The rate of poverty in this country is astronomical. Just this weekend I read a report that stated that 47% of Americans live on poverty level or just above. Needless to say, people of color and women were in the lowest income brackets. Most of them did what they were taught to do in life and worked and raised their children as best they could. Circumstances change and many who thought they would have retirement find themselves without. Social Security which was designed to prevent such poverty in older years is not seen as an entitlement that can be slashed and further impoverish people who have worked, often like slaves, just for these few dollars.

People do not chose poverty. The conditions of our lives dictate that. We actually have a lot less flexibility in our choices than the mythology creates. Looking at a few tokens is not reality for the majority. There is only minimal room for the exceptions, otherwise we would not have an exception category.

Therefore, it is one thing to try and raise consciousness and encourage people to be aware of what their yarn purchases are about. It is another to judge people for not being able to be puristic in their buying habits. 

Personally, I have not bought any yarn in months and am looking to sell off some of my stash. My income has hit bottom and at my retirement age am looking to restart a business to survive. 

I do a heck of a lot to change conditions in the world. One of the reasons my income is nil is because of all the time put in to political and community work. So keep your principles, but ask what you do to create the better conditions for all people so we can all afford those Fair Trade yarns. And drop the judgements. They help neither you nor anyone else and they certainly don't help promote understanding.


----------



## valj46 (Jul 25, 2011)

Thank goodness i am English we moan but have it better than most rich countries


BeadsbyBeadz said:


> My background is in budgetary analysis and whereas I don't have more time today to research this subject, here are a few web sites for your 'enjoyment.'
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country Some of these folks live on $9 US per month.
> 
> ...


----------



## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

courier770 said:


> Comparing children working on a family farm to children working in mills or factories is like comparing apples to oranges..not at all the same.
> 
> The children who help out with a family farm harvest are helping a family "investment" while the child working in a factory only helps the corporation that owns the mill and NOT his family.
> 
> ...


This is the only way that these children can make money for their familys. It is very,very small income but they are also working along side of mothers, sisters, and others in that family also. If it wasent for what small income they have they would have nothing. I aree it is note most perfect way of life and income but it is bringing in something. It is sad. But this is true. I do not buy because I Can Not Afford the higher priced yarns. Yes I would love to be able to afford them and make more expensive things for my family. But cannot ya know what......?????????? My family loves and appreciates everything I make for them expensive yarns or not. It is the love that goes into it that they appreciate. Yes I have not knitted anything for myself in years. I am always making for others. But the product comes out the same whether made with cheaper yarn or the expensive. I don't make a lot of money with my job and I do bust my ass off when I am at work. It is not a easy job I have. I do direct care/assisted living for the mentally and physically handicapped. But I guess you would say that is not much of a job. But guess what I love my job and as mentally and physically exhausting as it is its a job. What makes you the authority of what kind of people we all are on here to judge us for the kind of yarn we buy and work with. I cannot afford the wool to spin and dye myself. I have never done it and don't have any desire. I am happy you are able to afford such luxuries. But do not and I repeat do not judge those of us who cannot afford the expensive yarns. It is the craft we love and the results of a project we end up with along with the appreciation we get when we give that piece or pieces away as gift, charity, or other wise. I don't known what put you on this High Horse of yours but you need to step down and look around you and realize your post is insulting and hurtful to many here on KP. We have a sisterhood and brotherhood here and support each other. Not put each other down for they amount we pay for our yarn or where we get it from. Now I have said my piece and Good Morning to every one!!!!! I love you all and your work no matter what type of yarn you used to make you beautiful work from.


----------



## gclemens (Feb 18, 2012)

I'm only at the bottom of page one and all I can think is STOP!


----------



## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

I'm not reading 9 pages of discussion. Here is a link that shows what a $14 t-shirt costs to produce in a third world country, for those who are interested.
http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/05/01/what-does-that-14-shirt-really-cost/


----------



## fairfaxgirl (Dec 26, 2012)

Okay, Courier, you've stated your opinions about forced child labor and I think we get it that you feel strongly about that. Now may I suggest that you continue using the yarn you choose and allow other folks do the same without harsh criticism for doing so. You really have no idea why others use the yarns you abhor nor do you know their life situations. Let's get back to knitting and keep this site friendly. This is not the place to rant about our causes--it's a knitting and crochet forum and I suggest we get back to the crafting.


----------



## MissAppleBlossom (Nov 29, 2011)

Judge not lest ye be judged. 

I have to buy my yarn at Wal-Mart otherwise I wouldn't be able to knit. My family is homeless and our car is not running at the moment. I buy yarn maybe once or twice a month. According to you, I shouldn't knit at all because I can't afford "good yarn!" 

Who died and made you God?


----------



## barbdpayne (Jan 24, 2011)

Your can of worms isn't about the knitting industry. I agree with what you said about yarn companies treating their employees badly, however, I take exception to the comment about religion being included as why some people wouldn't settle for such conditions. There are people of many faiths in the world, and I suspect quite a few non-Christians who are on this board--including me. We also have strong feelings about the inequalities of life and poor treatment of people, animals, etc. So please, let's leave religion out of our comments. This board is about knitting, not our religious commitments.



courier770 said:


> I'm probably going to upset some people when I open this "can of worms"... but let the "uncanning" begin! We all want yarns at bargain basement prices..as long as those "slave wages" aren't being paid to one of OUR family members! The pittance paid to child workers, forced and "slave" laborers..won't even buy them a bowl of rice! Would we settle for these conditions for our own families? Not on your life!
> 
> There's "cheap yarn" and then there is just "cheap life". It's a shame that so many use the excuse "I can't afford anything else" when opting to purchase yarns that utilize child/forced and SLAVE labor.
> 
> I will never allow a dime of my money to go into the coffers of a company that allow the weak, the young and the infirm to be exploited..most "true" Christians won't. Think about your choices and the impacts those choices have.


----------



## Lostie (May 2, 2013)

gclemens said:


> I'm only at the bottom of page one and all I can think is STOP!


 :thumbup: lol. I am following this like many others, but feel that the answer to Courier's question "Let's REALLY talk about ....."
is "Best Not"


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

Lostie said:


> :thumbup: lol. I am following this like many others, but feel that the answer to Courier's question "Let's REALLY talk about ....."
> is "Best Not"


Because not talking about something really helps change things?


----------



## BeadsbyBeadz (Dec 19, 2012)

Moe C said:


> I'm not reading 9 pages of discussion. Here is a link that shows what a $14 t-shirt costs to produce in a third world country, for those who are interested.
> http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/05/01/what-does-that-14-shirt-really-cost/


Excellent article - thank you for sharing.


----------



## icis1984 (Feb 19, 2011)

It's obvious you never really been poor. I'm poor and knitting/crocheting is my therapy because it's cheaper than going to the doctor. I worked for Kohl's, its multi-million dollar company. You know because I couldn't open enough credit for them I was lucky if I got one day a week. If I looked for another job and try to make a set schedule they didn't care and schedule you any way they want. I no longer work for them and I can say much worse things as well, but to the point. We live in America and it's hard to fine good paying jobs if you don't have a college education, even then they still have hard time finding work, and only work experience is retail. So I'm stuck with the cheap yarn and deals that I can fine. I would love to get the expansive ones out there as they do look nice, but I can only get what I can afford and won't feel shame doing so.


----------



## headlemk (Feb 16, 2011)

In my study of the "issue" of child labor, it has been pointed out by many from "those" countries that what those children "earn" may be all the family gets and although the work is hard and not as we have it in the USA, it is very appreciated. 

I live in an area where there are families who are so poor their children cannot go to school (even though education is free) because they cannot affort the uniforms. Children come into restaurants selling all sorts of goods, sometimes a bag of green beans, or fruit or souvenirs. These children are clean, beatiful and poor. Some of these children are street kids, 7-8 year olds who have no home and this maybe the only money they will get in order to feed themselves and their siblings. There are orphanages all over the place, but not enough room for all of these children. 

We do what we can for them. I knit for a charity that makes sweaters, dresses and vests for the poorest of these families. Most of the yarn we buy is made here in this country, it is not natural fiber because they don't have the means to care for natural fibers and, yes, it's fossil fuel based yarn...acrylic...but these people in this country have jobs because of it. And the vendor we buy from has a job because of it. 

It would be nice if everyone in the world could live as idealistic as you do, but life isn't like that and life isn't fair...and fair is relative.

Please, stop stirring the pot and keep these types of rants to yourself. All you are doing, Courrier770 is heaping hurtful "guilt trips" on those of us who are not so fortunate as you. THAT is not a Christian thing to do.

I agree with DonnieK. You've put your definition of Christian onto us, but that's not the definition I read in the Bible. I just spent the last 3 weekends living at an orphanage taking care of 16 orphans whose director has had a heart attack and is back in the USA getting treatment. So don't say I'm not Christian because I don't buy my yarn from "Courier770-approved factories."


----------



## Lostie (May 2, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> Because not talking about something really helps change things?


Oh dear, please see my earlier post when I did provide a serious answer


----------



## barbdpayne (Jan 24, 2011)

This thread is becoming upsetting. We are knitters and we knit with what we can afford and do with it what we wish. If boycotting goods made in countries with offensive practices makes you feel better, then boycott. If not, that's fine too. Let's not be judgmental about the actions of people on this board. It has nothing to do with religion, or ethics, or being a good person. It has to do with our creative world and doing something that enhances life for us and the recipients of our beautiful items, regardless of what we paid for the yarn.


----------



## Marylou12 (Dec 11, 2011)

Just to think outside the box. What about things besides yarn? Clothing, materials to make clothing (threads, buttons, zippers...etc...), appliances, car parts (even if the car is made in America); I could go on, but you get my point, all come from third world countries that have child labor. 
It's something that's really difficult to avoid. 
I try to buy locally and American as much as I can.


----------



## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

jonibee said:


> We all have choices whether to support a cause or not..we can't be the "watch dog of the world" because we have our own populas that are poor, sick, down and out, homeless, drug addictive and what ever else falls into this category. We buy what we can afford and someone is making money off our purchases be it the mfg.than the person who works there..yes it's not fair but some would have no other means of support ..their culture is different than ours and what ever they make is needed. It's all well and good to say don't buy this because of what the current issue is...but that is the choice of the purchaser whether or not to purchase. There are many ways to do good be it donations of time,food, money, giving of ones crafts, clothing etc. Let it be the choice of the giver..and let them decide as to whether or not they are offended.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

Gypsycream said:


> I do agree Courier that child/slave labour shouldn't exist in an idea world. But you have to remember we are not living in this ideal world.
> 
> Recently a factory in Bangladesh collapsed killing and maiming many factory workers who were producing items of clothing for Primark. There was an outcry from the west about the amount of wages these poor workers received to provide us with cheap throw away garments.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

hgayle said:


> Very nicely stated.
> 
> Also, many folks talk about buying yarn at charity shops or recycling sweaters purchased there. Did any of you see the report on 20/20 about Goodwill? They are "in our own backyard" and no better than the countries you (Courier) are talking about. Goodwill no longer gets my donations, and I won't shop there ever again. They pay a lot of their employees less than $1/hour - some as low as 22 cents/hour. I say lets take care of our own.


Thank you for bringing that up.
I was trying to remember the Company/Organization you speak of and couldn't recall (senior moment), so I didn't mention it as an example..
Exactly....Look in your own back yard...meaning the US is just as guilty in some form or fashion.


----------



## heffernb (May 30, 2011)

I can't believe I actually read almost every word in all the posts. I read a lot of posts from people who felt like they had to justify buying cheap yarns. In my opinion, NO ONE should have to justify why they choose to buy what they buy. Stand proud and buy what you have to buy or want to buy. It is no one's business.


----------



## Laura R (Apr 14, 2011)

gclemens said:


> I'm only at the bottom of page one and all I can think is STOP!


Unlike you, Glenda, I waded through nine pages, hoping to see just one slightly apologetic post from Courier. Nope. She stuck to her usual MO of hurting others, stirring a sensitive pot and then watching it boil.

Her posting history shows she's a control freak, who just has to tell others how to live and what to do. Poor soul.

When you see that spinning wheel, run away.


----------



## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

kknott4957 said:


> courier770 said:
> 
> 
> > Purchasing goods from countries that allow child/forced/slave labor can in no way be compared to welfare. I'm sorry but there is a huge difference..
> ...


----------



## atvoytas (Jan 27, 2011)

DonnieK said:


> Well, shoot, I said I was not coming back here, but Courier, my thought is that you started this post rareing for a fight. If you are so worried about the 3rd world countries, just go over there and get everything all straightened out! Until those countries decide to do something or will allow other countries to come in and take over, there is not a whole lot that we can do about them. But, my eyes have seen so much here in the US that is wrong and we are doing nothing to straighten that out either. I have seen our own little citizens, so abused they are unable to walk or to speak because of fear. I have seen their little eyes so full of sadness that no one can reach them. I have seen women so physically abused they see no way out but death. I have heard the cry of children because their stomachs ache from hunger. I would much rather do something for these children who are so damaged they are not eligible for adoption because people want perfect children not ones they may actually have to work with so they go overseas to find that perfect child and leave an American child to continue to be abused or in homes where no one works with them to make them better. What is wrong with that picture? I have seen this with my open eyes. It is easy to walk around America thinking you are so high and mighty spouting out stuff you have probably never bothered to check out. I am telling you, I have been in these places, I have seen the children of America suffering and being abused just as they are in the 3rd world. But, you, you think you have all the answers, go to some of these places and tell these children how lucky they are to live in America.
> 
> Sorry, I mean no offense.


My eyes have seen and my ears have heard first hand I may add too! I was in the foster care system for many years....and it's sad. Really sad to have seen my fellow foster brothers and sisters go through what they went through and yes were overlooked because they were "damaged goods"! I have worked in the ER for many years and its heartbreaking.


----------



## gclemens (Feb 18, 2012)

courier770 said:


> inishowen,
> 
> Two can play the "assumption" game...bring your lunch lady, your insults are childish!


Now there is a fine example of one of the many reasons I am glad I am not Christian.


----------



## judbert (Feb 4, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Courrier--you have voiced this concern numerous times. It is principled and I agree with that principle, in principle.
> 
> However, conditions are not that straightforward. The rate of poverty in this country is astronomical. Just this weekend I read a report that stated that 47% of Americans live on poverty level or just above. Needless to say, people of color and women were in the lowest income brackets. Most of them did what they were taught to do in life and worked and raised their children as best they could. Circumstances change and many who thought they would have retirement find themselves without. Social Security which was designed to prevent such poverty in older years is not seen as an entitlement that can be slashed and further impoverish people who have worked, often like slaves, just for these few dollars.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

Courier 770 started this thread. We can choose not to participate and to follow other threads. It's as easy as clicking on "Unwatch" at the top of the page. That's what i'm doing. Good bye all - have a nice day and happy knitting to you!
Bonnie


----------



## icis1984 (Feb 19, 2011)

Well, it looks like the thread was taken off the main area. So no one who hasn't seen it, won't. It looks like those who already seen it and posted to with get the email notifications now.


----------



## inishowen (May 28, 2011)

Laura R said:


> Unlike you, Glenda, I waded through nine pages, hoping to see just one slightly apologetic post from Courier. Nope. She stuck to her usual MO of hurting others, stirring a sensitive pot and then watching it boil.
> 
> Her posting history shows she's a control freak, who just has to tell others how to live and what to do. Poor soul.
> 
> When you see that spinning wheel, run away.


That's why I made my post at the beginning. She likes to light the touch paper and stand back! She has now disappeared to watch the sparks fly. I've seen her do this many times.


----------



## judbert (Feb 4, 2013)

Excellent response. Thank you!



BeadsbyBeadz said:


> My background is in budgetary analysis and whereas I don't have more time today to research this subject, here are a few web sites for your 'enjoyment.'
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country Some of these folks live on $9 US per month.
> 
> ...


----------



## taypol (Mar 16, 2013)

That's it for me. yes we ALL have the right to express our opinions - and ALSO - the RIGHT TO REPLY! Now - UNWATCH for me.


----------



## headlemk (Feb 16, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> Because not talking about something really helps change things?


Just talking about something never changes things. One must take action if they wish change. If one wishes change go where changes need to be made and make it happen ... before one pontficates how "the world should be" one should take action themselves, but one should NOT try to force one's opinions on others.


----------



## atvoytas (Jan 27, 2011)

AnjiCat said:


> Courier770, it is evident that you are passionate about this subject. I think it is safe to say that everybody would prefer the world to be a place where no child need live being hungry or frightened every day.
> 
> I believe Ghandi said 'be the change you want to see in the world'
> 
> ...


 :thumbup:


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

headlemk said:


> Just talking about something never changes things. One must take action if they wish change. If one wishes change go where changes need to be made and make it happen ... before one pontficates how "the world should be" one should take action themselves, but one should NOT try to force one's opinions on others.


I agree that only talking about things doesn't change things, but if we don't have the information it is hard to know what is going on in the world. FYI, for nearly 6 years I put my time, treasure and talent into ownership of a Fair Trade store. I did try to actually act on my principles. I continue to do so as best I can. Part of the focus of our store was to inform people about working conditions in other parts of the world. Making people aware of options is one way of acting.


----------



## atvoytas (Jan 27, 2011)

inishowen said:


> That's why I made my post at the beginning. She likes to light the touch paper and stand back! She has now disappeared to watch the sparks fly. I've seen her do this many times.


 :thumbup:


----------



## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

Chezl said:


> I always buy everything as cheap as possible not just yarn. I am on a disability pension and I have heaps of pets to look after. I get my yarn from thrift shops by either buying yarn or buying items that I undo to knit into something else. I get charity by receiving food items or food vouchers and I give back by knitting for the homeless and by volunteering for the Salvos. I definitely can't buy anything but the cheapest items and when grocery shopping, I buy the generic items unless the known brands are on sale and cheaper than the generic items. I don't check which country anything comes from because it doesn't help me to know because I can't afford anything else. In a perfect world, I would be buying groceries that are Australian made to support our economy but these items usually aren't the cheapest so I will continue to buy cheap regardless and I will keep on knitting with whatever yarn I can get my hands on for the cheapest price possible.


Me also. Wanna know where I buy my clothes??? I will tell ya and I am not ashamed to say so. I buy my clothes at the Salvation Army. Yes that's right. It has been a long time since I have bought myself something brand spankin new except for the shoes I bought at PayLess in March. I also donate clothes to the Salvation Army. I have had many compliments on clothes I have worn and were surprised they were from a charity shop. Oh and grocery shopping.....I shop mostly at Aldis. Yep that's right. I even buy a lot of their special buys there also. Works just as good if not better that some big box stores. Quality is good and holds up. I buy house brand food instead of name brand. If you read the labels on some of the house brand food you will find it is made from big brand companies. We have to do what we have to do to make ends meet. So if buying cheap yarn makes me less of a person then so be it.


----------



## fairfaxgirl (Dec 26, 2012)

heffernb said:


> I can't believe I actually read almost every word in all the posts. I read a lot of posts from people who felt like they had to justify buying cheap yarns. In my opinion, NO ONE should have to justify why they choose to buy what they buy. Stand proud and buy what you have to buy or want to buy. It is no one's business.


Amen!


----------



## headlemk (Feb 16, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> I agree that only talking about things doesn't change things, but if we don't have the information it is hard to know what is going on in the world. FYI, for nearly 6 years I put my time, treasure and talent into ownership of a Fair Trade store. I did try to actually act on my principles. I continue to do so as best I can. Part of the focus of our store was to inform people about working conditions in other parts of the world. Making people aware of options is one way of acting.


Good for you, and yes, conversations about issues is a start, but some people just want to talk and never do.


----------



## Marge St Pete (Jul 21, 2011)

"That's all I can afford" is not an excuse. It's fact!!!! I buy what I am able as so many others. It is not in my intention to support abused children.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

headlemk said:


> Good for you, and yes, conversations about issues is a start, but some people just want to talk and never do.


True, that.


----------



## RosieC (Feb 14, 2012)

fairfaxgirl said:


> Amen!


Thank you for that !!! I tried to read several pages but just can't get through all the posts ...... I have work to do today. And by the way, it is sunny and gorgeous outside this morning ~~ I took my doggie for a nice long walk !!

Don't fret over this issue ~~ there are better things to do with our time.

Blessings to you all !


----------



## dlarkin (Jan 25, 2013)

Didn't read all the posts. This is a knitting, etc forum not a social awareness forum. People should and can buy what they want and can afford. Why start a fight and try to tell others what they should do? Write your congressman or whatever.


----------



## Lostie (May 2, 2013)

headlemk said:


> Just talking about something never changes things. One must take action if they wish change. If one wishes change go where changes need to be made and make it happen ... before one pontficates how "the world should be" one should take action themselves, but one should NOT try to force one's opinions on others.


Like your use of "one" - and your views

 :thumbup:


----------



## Marge St Pete (Jul 21, 2011)

Chezl said:


> I always buy everything as cheap as possible not just yarn. I am on a disability pension and I have heaps of pets to look after. I get my yarn from thrift shops by either buying yarn or buying items that I undo to knit into something else. I get charity by receiving food items or food vouchers and I give back by knitting for the homeless and by volunteering for the Salvos. I definitely can't buy anything but the cheapest items and when grocery shopping, I buy the generic items unless the known brands are on sale and cheaper than the generic items. I don't check which country anything comes from because it doesn't help me to know because I can't afford anything else. In a perfect world, I would be buying groceries that are Australian made to support our economy but these items usually aren't the cheapest so I will continue to buy cheap regardless and I will keep on knitting with whatever yarn I can get my hands on for the cheapest price possible.


I agree whole heart with what you said.


----------



## barbdpayne (Jan 24, 2011)

Headlemk, I loved your response. It clarifies the depth of the situation rather than a simplistic version of it. Fair is indeed relative and not all people have choices and options open to them. They do what they can to survive. Is it righ?--maybe not by our first world standards--but until poverty is eradicated people will do what they must to survive. We can choose to buy or not buy products made in ways that don't meet our standards--that is our choice. We should all make those decisions for ourselves without being made to feel guilty.


----------



## Chezl (Mar 12, 2012)

sam0767 said:


> Me also. Wanna know where I buy my clothes??? I will tell ya and I am not ashamed to say so. I buy my clothes at the Salvation Army. Yes that's right. It has been a long time since I have bought myself something brand spankin new except for the shoes I bought at PayLess in March. I also donate clothes to the Salvation Army. I have had many compliments on clothes I have worn and were surprised they were from a charity shop. Oh and grocery shopping.....I shop mostly at Aldis. Yep that's right. I even buy a lot of their special buys there also. Works just as good if not better that some big box stores. Quality is good and holds up. I buy house brand food instead of name brand. If you read the labels on some of the house brand food you will find it is made from big brand companies. We have to do what we have to do to make ends meet. So if buying cheap yarn makes me less of a person then so be it.


I am just like you. I have only shopped in thrift shops for clothing etc for many years. I wouldn't know what it is like shopping in a department store. My daughter bought her formal outfit from a Salvos store. She got her dress, shoes, shawl and bag for under $50.00. She also received many compliments and she proudly told everyone where the outfit had been bought and for how much. Her dress equaled the $200.00 dresses that many of the other girls wore. Now that I volunteer at a Salvos store, I notice just how many people shop there. We have a different coloured tag every week which is 50% off and quite a few people specifically shop for those coloured tags just to save even more money. There are too many people struggling to make ends meet and need to shop wisely just to live.


----------



## sam0767 (Jun 20, 2012)

Chezl said:


> I am just like you. I have only shopped in thrift shops for clothing etc for many years. I wouldn't know what it is like shopping in a department store. My daughter bought her formal outfit from a Salvos store. She got her dress, shoes, shawl and bag for under $50.00. She also received many compliments and she proudly told everyone where the outfit had been bought and for how much. Her dress equaled the $200.00 dresses that many of the other girls wore. Now that I volunteer at a Salvos store, I notice just how many people shop there. We have a different coloured tag every week which is 50% off and quite a few people specifically shop for those coloured tags just to save even more money. There are too many people struggling to make ends meet and need to shop wisely just to live.


My Salvation Army has a different colored tag sale every day. It is different every day. It is 5 for $5. If you get 5 items in that color tag you pay $5 for that bunch. Basically $1 for them each. If you get items with that color tag but not 5 you get 1/2 off for that item or items. It is great. I try to buy the color tag items. I was just there a week ago and only spent $27and got a lot of clothes. I am starting to stock up for the winter clothes now. Cant beat a bargain when you see it.


----------



## barbdpayne (Jan 24, 2011)

judbert said:


> Excellent response. Thank you!


Here, here. Well said. Thank you for the links and the information. We each knit for our own reasons and with the supplies we either can afford or wish to purchase. It isn't a judgment call to do that. Sad that someone felt it necessary to try to elicit guilt over that, and for me, worse that she tried to make it about religious ethics, leaving a good portion of the world's religions totally out of it as if they were supporting abuse and inequality. Puhleeeeez!


----------



## Anna3703 (Mar 4, 2012)

So well put, Headlernk, thank you for speaking for most of us.
Anna


----------



## AnDee (Jan 30, 2012)

In reading all the posts, my KP page froze. When I went back in this thread wasn't listed any more. If courier770 continues to post things like this and then run off - I say the boycott should start there. Talking does not make change, action does. Unless you are going to do something don't unload your guilt onto others. If you don't like where a product comes from, don't buy it. Shame on you for using a piblic forum to make yourself feel good.


----------



## barbdpayne (Jan 24, 2011)

Yes, yes, yes, AnDee. I like what you say.


----------



## Daisybel (Nov 27, 2012)

sam0767 said:


> Me also. Wanna know where I buy my clothes??? I will tell ya and I am not ashamed to say so. I buy my clothes at the Salvation Army. Yes that's right. It has been a long time since I have bought myself something brand spankin new except for the shoes I bought at PayLess in March. I also donate clothes to the Salvation Army. I have had many compliments on clothes I have worn and were surprised they were from a charity shop. Oh and grocery shopping.....I shop mostly at Aldis. Yep that's right. I even buy a lot of their special buys there also. Works just as good if not better that some big box stores. Quality is good and holds up. I buy house brand food instead of name brand. If you read the labels on some of the house brand food you will find it is made from big brand companies. We have to do what we have to do to make ends meet. So if buying cheap yarn makes me less of a person then so be it.


Me too, you're not alone!


----------



## barbdpayne (Jan 24, 2011)

Enough already. The initial poster stirred the pot and not in a good way. No one has to explain themselves regarding where they shop or where they buy their yarn or what yarn they like to use. We all are knitters and we all get to make the choices that are open to us, individually, and we don't need to be ashamed or need to defend ourselves. Before everyone is angry and annoyed and defensive, let's put this thread to rest and get back to the stuff that we do have some control over--like what patterns we like, and what needles we like, and how many hours we knit. We cannot control what happens in third world countries, or where yarn gets plied. If those things are important to you, we had a posting on where to get information. Make yourself the change you want to see in the world. For those of us who just want to enjoy knitting topics without guilt, let's get back to the reason for the site--Enjoying each other's knitting related accomplishments, problems,and projects.


----------



## Anna3703 (Mar 4, 2012)

Courier770 has so much to learn yet about "life"....about forgiving, about tolerance, about understanding, about being non-judgemental, being charitable, about walking in your brother's/sister's shoes....and so much more.


----------



## Nussa (Jul 7, 2011)

I see I'm not the only one who's noticed that Courier770 abandoned her own topic after page 2. 
Maybe she got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning...
I don't know what possesses anyone to start topics that cause dissension amongst others in the KP forum.
Surly she has better things to do with her time than stir up trouble. 

It's back to knitting for me...


----------



## mochamarie (Mar 9, 2012)

Courier got just exactly what she wanted out of this discussion:

Lots and lots of attention. Twelve (12) pages of attention! That's what she seems to thrive on is getting everyone's knickers in a twist and then standing back to watch! My grandma used to say, "The more you stir up a stink the more it smells" and this topic simply reeks!!! Are you happy, Courier? Do you just love discord? Talk about dysfunctional!!!

As for me, I'm sipping iced coffee with a cat in my lap and am contemplating which of my projects I want to work on. . .after a nice shower that is. Life is good and I am not rich, but am so richly blessed :-D


----------



## headlemk (Feb 16, 2011)

Well, I've had a productive day after my last post.....I've killed a black widow spider and then about a million dust bunnies. Time for me to sit and knit. 

You ladies are great. If there wasn't all kinds of knitting people there'd not be all kinds of yarn. 

God bless you all. Even you, Courier 770


----------



## barbdpayne (Jan 24, 2011)

I am saving my dust bunnies. I think some day there will be a discovery for their use and I will be wealthy. Maybe I could even get someone to spin them into yarn.


----------



## sanell (Dec 19, 2011)

In a way, I am thinking Courier may be playing the part of a troll. Not that I disagree with her disdain for child labor, but because she condemns others for their choices without knowing the reasons behind them. Had family members like that - stir the pot, get a cup of tea, and watch it simmer.


----------



## wiremysoul (Dec 4, 2012)

I'm sure none of us believe that child labour and sweat shops are a good idea, but honestly, the posting of this thread and the inflammatory nature of it are nothing short of trolling. If she really bothers you, the best thing to do is ignore the discussion, folks.

Original poster: if you want to be an activist, do it in a more meaningful way than attacking a community you participate with on a social level. Really.


----------



## JoanValJoan (Aug 12, 2011)

valmac said:


> THANK YOU for the most objective and informative post in this thread! Now let's get back to our crafts.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## knitwit549 (Oct 10, 2012)

barbdpayne said:


> I am saving my dust bunnies. I think some day there will be a discovery for their use and I will be wealthy. Maybe I could even get someone to spin them into yarn.


Specially if you leave them alone long enough to become full-fledged rabbits! LOL


----------



## headlemk (Feb 16, 2011)

knitwit549 said:


> Specially if you leave them alone long enough to become full-fledged rabbits! LOL


OOh, hope they're angora!!


----------



## knitwit549 (Oct 10, 2012)

headlemk said:


> OOh, hope they're angora!!


OMG! We are all going to be fabulously wealthy!


----------



## bonster (Jan 28, 2011)

At least the dust bunnies don't eat my flowers and vegetables!


headlemk said:


> Well, I've had a productive day after my last post.....I've killed a black widow spider and then about a million dust bunnies. Time for me to sit and knit.
> 
> You ladies are great. If there wasn't all kinds of knitting people there'd not be all kinds of yarn.
> 
> God bless you all. Even you, Courier 770


----------



## Laura R (Apr 14, 2011)

I, for one, have emailed Admin, asking that they consider banning Courier 770. If they check her posting history, it's a no-brainer.

Knitters just want to knit and enjoy other knitters.
They should be able to do that on a knitting forum, without all the...


----------



## headlemk (Feb 16, 2011)

I reported the "issue" too


----------



## Celt Knitter (Jul 13, 2011)

Agreed....ignorance, inactivity and sanctimoniousness does not put food on the table for anyone.

And, why don't we all take a deep breath and blow away the "hot air" by doing one good deed today for someone in need in our own regions...after all, are we not told that charity begins at home

:idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: 


Lostie said:


> Like your use of "
> :thumbup:


----------



## Marilynf (Oct 7, 2011)

Laura R said:


> I, for one, have emailed Admin, asking that they consider banning Courier 770. If they check her posting history, it's a no-brainer.
> 
> Knitters just want to knit and enjoy other knitters.
> They should be able to do that on a knitting forum, without all the...


Oh for heaven's sake...just don't read it if it bothers you and while I'm at it, just don't participate if you find it so offensive. That's the adult thing to do. Courier has lots of good information and I enjoy her posts for the most part. 
Sounds like tattletaleing to me.


----------



## headlemk (Feb 16, 2011)

I, for one, think she needs at least a slap on the hand by admin to be more circumspect in her postings.


----------



## bagibird (Sep 30, 2012)

I swore I wouldn't post on this thread because Courier 770 started it, but I've given in. I have decided that, on any thread where she posts, I will NOT take part. I don't need to read nonsense posted by someone who is clearly so unhappy and bitter about their own life that they have to try to upset others. I'm old enough to decide what I believe is correct and right for me, so I won't be influenced by an ill-informed person whose motive, I feel, is solely to annoy or hurt. Water off a duck's back - sorry Courier, you're wasting your time, but not mine any more.


----------



## thumper5316 (Oct 7, 2011)

bagibird said:


> I swore I wouldn't post on this thread because Courier 770 started it, but I've given in. I have decided that, on any thread where she posts, I will NOT take part. I don't need to read nonsense posted by someone who is clearly so unhappy and bitter about their own life that they have to try to upset others. I'm old enough to decide what I believe is correct and right for me, so I won't be influenced by an ill-informed person whose motive, I feel, is solely to annoy or hurt. Water off a duck's back - sorry Courier, but you're wasting you're time, but not mine any more.


 :thumbup:


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

So while you feel offended, please note that your trying to shut someone else's voice is very offensive to others. You have the right to not read. There are many other discussions on KP in which you can participate. 
Personally, I agree in part with Courrier770 and have written my response earlier. Here I write to criticize your hurtful and judgemental attack on another's voice.


----------



## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

sbel3555 said:


> This topic is political in nature which is not allowed on this forum. Kindly find another venue for this discussion. And besides, who are you to tell people what they can or cannot purchase?


----------



## Deanne (Jul 21, 2011)

Enough already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's starting to sound very childish. I for one will not read Couriers posts anymore but that is my decision.


----------



## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

There is just one thing, if, after reading this topic, anyone out there follows up links, maybe sign online petitions, writes to governments, ministers for foreign affairs, reads up on charities who assist women to provide a better world for children, then some good has come from it.


----------



## Novasea (Nov 10, 2012)

My only comment here will be the observation that every time there is a post like this it gets pages and pages and pages of replies. Far more than any knitting related post I have seen in my short time on the forum.


----------



## Lolly12 (Oct 10, 2012)

And where is she,........in hiding,come out, come out wherever you are courier. :hunf:


----------



## StaceyR (Feb 9, 2013)

I agree 100%!


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

mochamarie said:


> Courier got just exactly what she wanted out of this discussion:
> 
> Lots and lots of attention. Twelve (12) pages of attention! That's what she seems to thrive on is getting everyone's knickers in a twist and then standing back to watch! My grandma used to say, "The more you stir up a stink the more it smells" and this topic simply reeks!!! Are you happy, Courier? Do you just love discord? Talk about dysfunctional!!!
> 
> As for me, I'm sipping iced coffee with a cat in my lap and am contemplating which of my projects I want to work on. . .after a nice shower that is. Life is good and I am not rich, but am so richly blessed :-D


mochamarie, I truly think you've hit the nail squarely on the head! Thank you for injecting some reality, and for your upbeat appreciation for the simple blessings of life. :thumbup:


----------



## StaceyR (Feb 9, 2013)

:thumbup:


----------



## bagibird (Sep 30, 2012)

tamarque said:


> So while you feel offended, please note that your trying to shut someone else's voice is very offensive to others. You have the right to not read. There are many other discussions on KP in which you can participate.
> Personally, I agree in part with Courrier770 and have written my response earlier. Here I write to criticize your hurtful and judgemental attack on another's voice.


I am not attempting to stop anyone making whatever comments they choose, just exercising my right to choose what i read. Unwatching right now.


----------



## cynthia387 (Oct 16, 2012)

Twenty-four years ago I went on a long holiday to Turkey. One of the places that I went to was a factory that made hand made Turkish carpets. We were shown around wherever we wished to go. The facilities for the girls working there were good. These girls were about fifteen (I left school when I was fifteen) and their skills were so good that they were paid the same salary as bank managers. They would work for twenty minutes and then rest for twenty minutes because the concentration needed was so intense. Young girls were employed because their fingers were so flexible. They also had a high standing in their communities. These carpets and rugs were stunningly beautiful and were sold abroad for the pounds sterling and U.S. dollars that they brought in.


----------



## TeeneeBee (Jun 14, 2013)

Just posting to agree that the way to change things for the better is to be informed on all of the issues and lobby companies to ensure a fair wage and decent working conditions. Taking money from families forced to work in these ways will just cause further problems for them. I am involved with charities that do consciousness raising work and campaigning on just these issues and that is their advice. I don't call myself a 'Christian' specifically because I don't like the way the term is abused by certain people.

Be happy with your choices, people. No-one should be justifying anything to anyone. I'm poor too and do what I can with what I've got, and cost is no indicator that something was produced in ethical conditions.


----------



## obxamom (Apr 21, 2013)

Some of those expensive designer clothes are made in the same nasty sweatshop conditions. You are correct price is not an indicator. Be informed ....buy local when you can and let the rest be we can only do do much.


----------



## Just Drene (Nov 9, 2012)

My first and only post on this matter. For crying out loud she is only playing a game to see how far she can wind us all up. She will try for more pages next time.


----------



## barbdpayne (Jan 24, 2011)

Well, folks. Let's get back to more pleasant topics. Everyone has a right to state their views, just as we--as internet users--have a right not to agree or even bother to read about them. However, this isn't really the forum for political issues, so let's get back to knitting and crocheting. Those who wish to go further with this subject should do some studying and learn about it in depth and then start taking action, once you know what action is worth taking. Just riling people up and setting them on edge isn't effective.


----------



## ltyler65 (Aug 14, 2012)

Thank you.


Celt Knitter said:


> Instead of making unsupported allegations about "cheap yarn", be specific and name names! This is one of a number of issues with your post:
> Why are you assuming that anyone on here supports child labor?
> Poverty is relative. When I was working in China several years ago, $250.00 a month was a decent livable wage. I could buy a meal or have my hair cut and a massage for $2.00!
> What you consider "cheap yarn" is an economic lifeline for those families. Take that away and they have nothing.
> ...


----------



## ltyler65 (Aug 14, 2012)

I HATE politics, goodbye.


----------



## ltyler65 (Aug 14, 2012)

There is a section on here titled "non knitting topics". Try going there with political discussions.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

I have to put my 4 cents in here too. As not one has mention the fact that most Charities ask that you use acrylic yarns. I know that Guide Post magazine ask that you use this. Don't care for one who said that being poor is not an excuse,try it sometime. When one cares enough to make something for a charity I for one think that it is wonderful, no matter what yarn they may use. So to say to the lady who posted stand in line at Walmart,yeah ladies stand tall you are kind enough to care about others and do it with what you can afford. 
I swing both ways, yarn snob and a Walmart groupie. We do what we can and no one should ever be put down for what they knit for others, no matter what they buy.

Also want to add even if you spin your own yarn, or knit with it have you used Cashmere yarn?? Guess where it comes from???

Also if you are upset by this subject, would suggest you may want to boycott it and if person who started this subject is not to your liking boycott her post to. Not trying to be nasty just a thought as to not let someone upset you.
Being a Christian has nothing to do with money , it has to do with what you carry in your heart to be your truths.


----------



## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

I have a very simple solution that we ALL can do!

It seems the majority of the posters here know for a fact that the original poster has a history of starting contraversal topics just to rile up everyone. Do what I am doing -

DON'T REPLY TO HER POSTS - IGNORE THEM - DON'T GIVE HER THE SATISFACTION OF WATCHING HOW UPSET SHE HAS MADE PEOPLE ON HERE.

KNITTING is so much calmer and peaceful than to get involved in a subject most of us disagree with.


----------



## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

I don't consider the topic to be political, but a human rights issue.
I suppose it has stayed in Main for one of two reasons,
Nobody has reported it as needing to be moved
Admin consider it to be knitting crochet related


----------



## barbdpayne (Jan 24, 2011)

Human rights issues are political. It is great to be concerned with wrongdoing in the world--even if we are judging by our exceedingly high American standards--but it is more of a topic for a specific and dedicated forum. By the way, if you have traveled in 3rd world countries, which I have done on several occasions, you can see how desperately people need jobs and they will do anything to survive. I am not condoning human rights abuses such as child and female trafficking or enforced prostitution. I am just saying when people only have minimal options, they must do whatever it takes or they starve. We should not judge their society by our norms. Sanitation, work, and living situations we can't even imagine accepting are the reality for a large portion of the world's population and we ae never going to eradicate that until their governments either become wealthy or noncriminal. Okay. I'm done. Back to my pretty linen yarn and lace cardi.


----------



## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

barbdpayne said:


> Human rights issues are political. It is great to be concerned with wrongdoing in the world--even if we are judging by our exceedingly high American standards--but it is more of a topic for a specific and dedicated forum. By the way, if you have traveled in 3rd world countries, which I have done on several occasions, you can see how desperately people need jobs and they will do anything to survive. I am not condoning human rights abuses such as child and female trafficking or enforced prostitution. I am just saying when people only have minimal options, they must do whatever it takes or they starve. We should not judge their society by our norms. Sanitation, work, and living situations we can't even imagine accepting are the reality for a large portion of the world's population and we ae never going to eradicate that until their governments either become wealthy or noncriminal. Okay. I'm done. Back to my pretty linen yarn and lace cardi.


I'm not the original poster of this topic.
whenI said not political, I meant as in the American politics going on in chit chat. I see your point about it being political though, just not party politics, they should all be concerned.
yes I've travelled, and agree with your other comments.
its the underlying problems needing attention, not just stopping their only source of income


----------



## Anna3703 (Mar 4, 2012)

DON'T REPLY TO HER POSTS - IGNORE THEM - DON'T GIVE HER THE SATISFACTION OF WATCHING HOW UPSET SHE HAS MADE PEOPLE ON HERE
Joan Thelma

DITTO.......


----------



## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

Anna3703 said:


> DON'T REPLY TO HER POSTS - IGNORE THEM - DON'T GIVE HER THE SATISFACTION OF WATCHING HOW UPSET SHE HAS MADE PEOPLE ON HERE
> Joan Thelma
> 
> DITTO.......


Oh Courier merely starts another "nice" thread like the one in Chit Chat


----------



## inishowen (May 28, 2011)

Yes I've seen her new nice thread. Unbelieveable isn't she?


----------

