# Long tail cast on question



## Jude2444 (Feb 13, 2012)

When you cast on using the long tail cast on method, is the cast on row considered the first row or is the next row considered row 1. 
Thanks in advance


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## BEChristianson (Dec 7, 2011)

Your pattern usually will say cast on # of stitches then it will say Row 1 ..... So that would make me think that the cast on row does not count as the 1st row. Yes?


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## Jude2444 (Feb 13, 2012)

BEChristianson said:


> Your pattern usually will say cast on # of stitches then it will say Row 1 ..... So that would make me think that the cast on row does not count as the 1st row. Yes?


That's what I think too. But when you do it that way, the wrong side looks as if it should be the right side. Does that make sense?


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## loriekennedy (Jan 3, 2012)

cast on isnt your first row!!


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## shaney63 (Nov 30, 2011)

Jude2444 said:


> When you cast on using the long tail cast on method, is the cast on row considered the first row or is the next row considered row 1.
> Thanks in advance


Personally I have never considered the cast on row as row 1... that being said, if a pattern is straight stockinette or garter, I have read that yes, the long tail cast on does add a row and can therefore be considered row 1. I don't see how it can be row 1, however, when a pattern has anything varied from just knit across the row.


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## BEChristianson (Dec 7, 2011)

shaney63 said:


> Jude2444 said:
> 
> 
> > When you cast on using the long tail cast on method, is the cast on row considered the first row or is the next row considered row 1.
> ...


Exactly!


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## Linda6885 (Feb 13, 2011)

Some knitters will consider it one row of knitting. And you are right, that first cast on row looks like a purl row. I will sometimes adjust the pattern rows because I don't like the edge looking like a purl row. It is up to you. But you can use other cast ons that you may like the results better. A knitted cast on or a cable cast on. There is even a cast on that mimics a knit and purl stitch for ribbings. Look to youtube.com, or knittingdaily.com or interweave.com for examples and how to's for cast on's.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I never consider the cast on a "row"..that said I do a very "unconventional" cast on..a Russian method that stymies most people. The cast on has not yet been worked so it isn't a row, however depending on the stitch pattern, it can "appear" as though it is a row. On the other hand a "cast off" row is a worked row - clear as mud isn't it?

I've been knitting for nearly 46 years and not all cast on's are created equal. Some cast on's look wonderful as a "right side" and others look better as a "wrong side".

Someday when you don't have a project to work on and some left over yarn, give each cast on method a "try", see which ones you like best and how they can be applied best.


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

Incorrect...in long tail cast on it is considered the cast on and first row of knitting. 

Please look it up on the internet.

But...I personally don't count it as the first row because I don't like the way it looks as the first row.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Linda, I'm going to disagree. Even though I do a very unconventional long tail cast on, I'd never consider it a "first row". Though there are others that most certainly look more like a first row and probably could be counted as the first row. 

I think t he real answer is going to be how the cast on affects length/gauge. Lets say that a pattern calls for 1" of ribbing before switching to stockinette stitch and the gauge of your yarn/pattern is 8 rows per inch (totally fictitious). If you work 7 rows and with your cast on you have achieved that 1" of ribbing your cast on is going to count as a row.

Depends on the type of cast on and the pattern.


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

You are always right Courier and everyone else is always wrong no matter what the discussion is.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Pak, I didn't say I was right, if you'll read what I said you'll notice that not all cast on's are the same, nor are all patterns. Every circumstance is not the same.


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## DragonWhoKnits (Sep 20, 2011)

I like the Twisted German cast on, which is a variation of the long-tail and also called the Old Norwegian, and in that cast on you do actually end up with what amounts to the first knit/purl stitch being done as you cast on... 

For me, I don't get hot and bothered about it. If the pattern says count it as the first row, I do.. If it doesn't, I don't. I'll look at things as I progress and adjust my length accordingly.

And too, I'll look at it and see if it looks like a knit row or not and adjust my next row accordingly... Guess I'm a free and easy knitter, and don't care if the knitting police come for me... 

Nancy


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Nancy, you are right, each pattern works a bit differently. Many times a pattern will tell us to cast on a certain number of stitches and work until the length is so long from the cast on edge. Other times it really isn't specified.

Some cast on methods result in more "length" than others. Some patterns are more specific and state that after the cast on to work a specific number of rows. It all depends on the particular pattern, there really are no hard and fast rules on this one.


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## kidbear (Jan 28, 2012)

You do your cast-on row and the next row is row 1


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Oh please don't say that, you'll send Pak into some sort of cardiac episode!


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## Jude2444 (Feb 13, 2012)

Thanks to all who replied to my question. There was a lot of terrific feedback. I am going to research some different cast ons. Who knew they were not all created equal?


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Some cast on's are deep and others are not. Never once in my over 45 years of knitting have I come across instructions that were totally "definitive". Most patterns tell you to cast on, then work for a certain length from the cast on edge.but not if the cast on is considered a row or simply part of the work "from the cast on edge". I don't think there is a true "right" or "wrong" answer here. 

A cable cast on is less "deep" than other cast ons, some long tail cast on's are deeper or denser. 

Each cast on is a little different and each pattern calls for something different.

There's no reason to be "snarky" here. Opinions are just that, opinions. My personal opinions are based on the years I have been knitting and my experience..someone else will have different experience.


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## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

Normally a pattern tells you how many rows to do or to work until a certain length. And unless you are working with a very bulky yarn one row won't make that much difference anyway.
But if you prefer the look of the front or back of one cast on than you either need to adjust which row you start with or use a different cast on. Personally I decide how much I want my cast on to be able to stretch in deciding which to use and never count it as a row- after all the pattern has assumed that you will cast on stitches and usually tells you what the first row you will work is, generally they don't say start with the second row


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## Granny8 (Mar 23, 2011)

That's been my experience too.... it looks like the opposite side... wonder how to combat that???


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

I was taught that the long-tail cast on creates a row (as opposed to other methods that consist of loose floppy stitches) but that most patterns do NOT count it as row one.

As others have said though, it depends on how the pattern shapes up as to whether I count it or not.


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## Sara Ann (Oct 8, 2011)

What is long tail cast on??


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## Knitter forever (Dec 11, 2011)

I have been knitting for over 50 Yrs. And never did I count my cast on as the 1st row,unless the pattern says like courier 770 ,some patterns say ,cast on then work for so many inches from cast on.,this way it is counted, so I guess you have to judge what you feel is the best for you,no need to get so upset. I am making the handbag, it says to cast on then work 2rows of one color,and two rows of another color you alternate the colors,sometimes it looks like I should have counted the cast on row as a row,will try it next time. In the mean time i'm not going to get upset about it. Keep up the good answers you give to fellow KNITTERS, it's all in a days living, if not do what you want. I like your answers,I think you know a lot more than me anyways.


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## beachknit (Oct 25, 2011)

The long tail caston creates a knit row - with practice you can "read" your knitting (per the great EZ!) and see that that caston row is all knit stitches. I always count this as my first row. If I don't, for instance if the first row is supposed to have been all purls, then the appearance is of a border.


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## beachknit (Oct 25, 2011)

The following is a q uote taken from this web site:
http://techknitting.blogspot.com/2006/11/how-best-to-cast-on-long-tail-method.html
With long tail cast on, you don't have these problems because you make the foundation row AND knit the first row at the same time... In other words, long tail casting-on produces a uniform row of loops already pre-knit into the underlying foundation row. These loops and the foundation row stabilize one another.


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## Knitter forever (Dec 11, 2011)

I do the Russian cast on,I always did that and never knew what it was called,except long tail cast on. Good to know.


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## Vonpar (May 1, 2012)

the cast on row is definitely NOT the first row


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## jinx (Feb 12, 2011)

There isn't a right answer to this question. Just as we disagree whether it is the first row or not, the designers disagree if it is the first row or not. I would say it depends upon how the pattern is written. 
jinx


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## sylviag (Mar 2, 2012)

I like the long tail cast on using both the tail and the ball of yarn, my mom always called it the knitting cast on,i use it because i find it a very neat cast on and start my pattern from there i never call it row 1,everyone does things different just keep on knitting.


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## funkyknitter (Mar 21, 2012)

Quoted from Knitting.about.com 
"The long-tail cast on method is easy and versatile, and, better yet, the cast on makes a row of bumps that count as a row of knitting. If you're working the stockinette stitch, you can start with a purl row instead of a knit row when you cast on with this method."

Quoted from StitchDiva.com
"This cast-on is the one that most people learn first. It is important not to make your cast-on too tight - not only because it makes your first row harder to work, but also because it will make the starting edge of the fabric tight and inelastic. Many people prefer to cast-on over both needles in order to assure a nice, loose cast-on row. 
This cast-on makes a "right side" row: if you will be working in stockinette, it is easiest to work a purl row first after this cast on is complete. "

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Okay, I looked it up on the internet (as suggested) and this is what I found. IF you are doing stockinette and you use the long tail cast on then you may consider the cast on to be a row of knitting and purl your first row. It only applies to stockinette and long tail cast on. ;-)


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## tatty82 (Apr 6, 2012)

I never count the cast on as my first row, always cast on then follow pattern for the first row, x


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## indus3232 (Feb 24, 2011)

Usually the rows also mention right side-wrong side. This should be considered while counting rows...


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## 1cleaner (Aug 24, 2011)

I've have never counted my cast on as a row, glad to hear I guessed right.


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## grandma jean (Dec 15, 2011)

cast on row is always ignored.


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## dotcarp2000 (Sep 5, 2011)

Dragon who knits, I'm right along with you. No right or wrong way as long as the finished piece looks good.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

It appears there are many schools of thought on this, just as patterns are written in many different ways. indus is correct that paying attention to RS and WS, when indicated in a pattern, will also have an effect.

Then there is always the "provisional cast on", where you are going to go back and work in the opposite direction of your cast on.


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## poulie (May 26, 2011)

I just learned the long tail cast on method last week from you tube and they mentioned it knits up as the CO row and the first row. I would go with your pattern and how it looks! All the best - happy knitting!


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## MGT (Oct 6, 2011)

I use it as not row 1, and however it looks is a "design element".


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## jentonic (Jul 24, 2011)

I agree with you Kidbear. I have always had a neat finish when using the longtail method of cast on. I then start the pattern of the first row whatever it is.


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## KnitPicker (Jan 19, 2011)

The Long Tail Cast On is a foundation row and isn't usually counted as Row 1. (There's always exceptions, so read your pattern) Think of it as the floor of your pattern's house.


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## westwood (Dec 9, 2011)

I have read a pattern where it says that the LT cast-on is the first row. Other than having that instruction, I wouldn't consider it a row.


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## flohel (Jan 24, 2011)

Now let us be nice


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## dingo (Jun 20, 2011)

kidbear said:


> You do your cast-on row and the next row is row 1


Amen! End of story.


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## kdunlap3289 (Sep 26, 2011)

If the pattern stitch starts with the first row, then even the long tail cast-on would have to be the cast-on, however if the first few rows are garter then, I'd count it as a row... http://www.etsy.com/shop/kdunlap3289


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

jentonic said:


> I agree with you Kidbear. I have always had a neat finish when using the longtail method of cast on. I then start the pattern of the first row whatever it is.


That's what I was saying...even though it is a cast on and first row I use it because of the neat finish and begin knitting with the first row of the pattern.


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## lannieb (Apr 28, 2011)

I guess WE get to decide!


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## g-mom (Mar 1, 2011)

Granny8 said:


> That's been my experience too.... it looks like the opposite side... wonder how to combat that???


The fun thing about being creative is the unique choices of the creator...we take the foundation and build on it as we need. 
When I use LT cast on, I determine right or wrong side by making the cast on either from my right hand or left hand: yarn in left, needle in right = bump side (wrong)showing. Yarn in right hand, needle in left hand = flat side (right) showing. Then, according to the pattern, I can start on the right or wrong side. Anyway, it works for me...


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## PauletteB. (Feb 7, 2012)

There is no one correct answer to this question. I use the long tail cast on, and that is never my first row. for someone else this may well be their first row. I have used other cast on from time to time and follow the pattern as to what is the first row.


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## denisejh (May 20, 2011)

Jude2444-Usually the cast on row is considered the cast on and the next row is the first row but you need to go by the pattern. If the pattern says to cast on x number of stitches, then refers to the next row as row 1, the cast on is the cast on. If the pattern refers as the row after cast on as row 2, the cast on is considered as row 1. If the pattern doesn't indicate. the row after cast on would be row 1. If you prefer the look of the cast on row as Row 1 then by all means, use it as Row 1-just make sure to make any needed adjustment in the row count. Nothing's written in stone. It's your project and you can make it as you want it. Happy knitting! Denise


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## pegperson (Jul 20, 2011)

I've found thru the years, a cast on can be either the first row or whatever but I generally make sure that the first row is a purl one and that's the WRONG side so when you finish up, that first row doesn't look so out of place but tends to blend in. I hope I'm making myself clear on this.


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## dsteggs (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm pages back in the discussion and this comment may not be read, but I never treat the long tail cast on as a row unless the pattern says to do so... I do not make adjustment for length etc, since most pattern say to measure from last rib or from cast on... I like the long tail cast on and wish I had learned it years ago. To me the bottom row of sweaters has a smoother look and a better foundation with long tail than most other cast on methods, that I know of and can do.


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## Dsynr (Jun 3, 2011)

My Experience {and $2.25 will get you on a crosstown bus]
I've never considered the cast-on in knitting nor the initial chain in crochet the first row. I've never encountered a pattern that called the row after the cast-on anythng but Row 1. Just me.
That said, I do pretty much as I like with a project. If I don't like something about it, I change it to suit myself. I always thought other kntiters did the same.


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## Dsynr (Jun 3, 2011)

courier770 said:


> I never consider the cast on a "row"..that said I do a very "unconventional" cast on..a Russian method that stymies most people. The cast on has not yet been worked so it isn't a row, however depending on the stitch pattern, it can "appear" as though it is a row. On the other hand a "cast off" row is a worked row - clear as mud isn't it?
> 
> I've been knitting for nearly 46 years and not all cast on's are created equal. Some cast on's look wonderful as a "right side" and others look better as a "wrong side".
> Someday when you don't have a project to work on and some left over yarn, give each cast on method a "try", see which ones you like best and how they can be applied best.


Is this officially called a "Russian Cast On"?
Might be something new for me to learn. Is it on UTube, do you know? Thanks.


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## jentonic (Jul 24, 2011)

Exactly xx


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## Becca (Jan 26, 2011)

If you want the cast-on row to look the same front and back, use the cable cast-on version. No lumps and bumps. You also don't have to worry about how long a tail to have.


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

Dsynr said:


> My Experience {and $2.25 will get you on a crosstown bus]
> I've never considered the cast-on in knitting nor the initial chain in crochet the first row. I've never encountered a pattern that called the row after the cast-on anythng but Row 1. Just me.
> That said, I do pretty much as I like with a project. If I don't like something about it, I change it to suit myself. I always thought other kntiters did the same.


The few times I have run into it it was never in the actual pattern but mentioned somewhere else for those who would be wiser than me and think this can't be right...

And I see it a lot on blogs.

Look for me at the bus stop


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## knitterbee (Jul 21, 2011)

I had never thought about whether to count the cast on (always used long tail unless directions said to do another one) until I came to KP. Patterns either said, rib, knit, or stockinette so many inches or tell you what to do on the first row. I just follow the directions, or take off with what I intend to do. Isn't it great that knitting is *right* if we like what we did?


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## ireneofnc (Aug 15, 2011)

Hi,

Your cast on row is also called the "foundation row", and does not count as row 1, but as the foundation for building your knitted projects, row by row.


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## Jude2444 (Feb 13, 2012)

Wow, who knew such a simple question would generate this debate? Only among knitters :lol: 
I can't wait for a free afternoon to go online and try some of these cast on techniques. I thought there were only two!
And then there is the cast offs.....
In the end I decided to go with what I thought looked best for my wip and started row 1 after the cast on


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

knitterbee said:


> I had never thought about whether to count the cast on (always used long tail unless directions said to do another one) until I came to KP. Patterns either said, rib, knit, or stockinette so many inches or tell you what to do on the first row. I just follow the directions, or take off with what I intend to do. Isn't it great that knitting is *right* if we like what we did?


Sounds good to me...I just have to make a note to do the same if I'm making a pair of something.


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## stanshoney (Mar 9, 2012)

I am working on a sweater that call s for long-tail cast-on, and then says to work pattern beginning with row one. So that sounds to me as if the cast on does not count as the first row. I agree that it depends on the pattern, and how one likes the way it looks.


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## nhauf001 (Jan 18, 2011)

Jude2444 said:


> When you cast on using the long tail cast on method, is the cast on row considered the first row or is the next row considered row 1.
> Thanks in advance


In my opinion the cast on, is the cast on, no mater what method is used. The first row is the first row that was knitted (or purled).
Naomi


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## templetb (Mar 10, 2011)

kidbear said:


> You do your cast-on row and the next row is row 1


Assuming flat knitting, the long tail cast on row is the right side, you then purl back, you are on the wrong side. It has a right and a wrong side if you look carefully. If the pattern calls for the long tail cast on, the designer will have accounted for that. If not, you may have to decide whether you want to call the cast on row 1 or purl back and the third row becomes row 1 of your pattern. You do not want to cast on and count the return row as 1 because you are on the wrong side of the edging and it will not look as good. I learned this the hard way. Hope it helps.


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## mopgenorth (Nov 20, 2011)

The cast on is not counted as a row, but the stitches on the needle are counted as the last row- This is important when counting rows related to following a pattern, increases, decreases, etc.


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## dollyoved (Mar 23, 2011)

LannieB.

I know this doesn't relate to the question, but I was wondering: How do you get the child's eyes to move in your avatar (picture)? 

Thanks!


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## teddy3656 (Nov 20, 2011)

The cast on row is never row 1. You have to have stitches on the needle to start the pattern row 1.


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## Grandma Jo (Feb 18, 2011)

This issue has always confused me. In most patterns, it says cast on so many stitches, then Row 1 which puts you on the purl side, but if you start with the purl, and say the pattern says to do 8 rows of stockinette stitch, then it gets confusing because it will throw your row count off if 
you want to be on the knit side of your cast on. Good topic as long as no one gets upset with the answers. We need to be friendly here.


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## aquarius21152 (May 15, 2011)

I have used the long tail cast-on ever since I started knitting , which was many years ago. I have never counted the cast on row as the first row.


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## dev7316 (Sep 2, 2011)

i agree also


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## Tara (Jan 31, 2011)

I agree...The cast on is just a cast on...After the cast on it always says Row 1...I have never seen a pattern that includes the cast on as a row...


nhauf001 said:


> Jude2444 said:
> 
> 
> > When you cast on using the long tail cast on method, is the cast on row considered the first row or is the next row considered row 1.
> ...


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## Mumah (Nov 15, 2011)

After casting on the stitches, you then start the next row as the first row in the pattern,Hope this helps,happy knitting ;-)


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

As a knitter for over 50 years, I do what would be called (my own version probably not correct)a reversed long tail cast on where the long tail is held in the left hand and the wrap around knit stitch comes from the ball of yarn.

The elderly lady who taught me said it all comes out in the wash especialy if you are casting on over 100 stitches as the right hand tail would be several yards (each yard being 36" long) long which is difficult to measure accurately.

This has worked for me especially on afghans and some V shaped shawls without causing any problems. This cast on row is never considered the first row.

On hats and small objects, I use the knitted cast on so I don't have to estimate the tail at all.

If this is not correct in the knitting world, people still love everything I make but then maybe they don't knit!

All comments are welcome as would enjoy knowing if anyone else does this type of cast on with the long tail.

Jane


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## Floozie (Apr 20, 2012)

Oh dear I don't even know what a 'long tail cast on' is!! And I have been knitting for 35 years and after the first couple of years when I got the tension always even I am happy.
But FYI I never count the cast on row as the first row as it will say if you are doing stocking stitch (Like the Teeny Tiny Bear I have just made for the first time), you cast on then the first row is a purl row, indicating that the cast on was a plain - if that makes sense from all this bitching and nonsense


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

Jude2444 said:


> BEChristianson said:
> 
> 
> > Your pattern usually will say cast on # of stitches then it will say Row 1 ..... So that would make me think that the cast on row does not count as the 1st row. Yes?
> ...


I have always liked the purl side of the cast on best. I've listened to many "authorities" say that side is ugly and the other side is pretty, but when I look at it, it looks just the opposite to me. I especially like the German twisted cast on because it makes what looks almost like a purl cording on the "wrong" side. It's more stretchy, too.

But then, I usually like reverse stockinette stitch better than the right side.

Once again, like so many things in knitting, it all comes down to individual preference.


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## beverlyH (Oct 26, 2011)

If you follow your pattern after you CO you will determine which is the RS and the WS. Then start creating and enjoy the relaxation of your knitting. Everyone is right with there suggestions. I sometimes use it as the first row or keep following the pattern. It all depends on how I want to create my project's hem or border to look. Just keep knitting everyone and be nice when giving out instructions. Remember some KPs might not be experienced as some of us are in reading and adjusting to patterns. HAPPY KNITTING EVERYONE.


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## mopgenorth (Nov 20, 2011)

Floozie said:


> Oh dear I don't even know what a 'long tail cast on' is!! And I have been knitting for 35 years and after the first couple of years when I got the tension always even I am happy.
> But FYI I never count the cast on row as the first row as it will say if you are doing stocking stitch (Like the Teeny Tiny Bear I have just made for the first time), you cast on then the first row is a purl row, indicating that the cast on was a plain - if that makes sense from all this bitching and nonsense


Here's a great link that explains the long tail cast on! Happy Knitting!

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=knitfreedom+long+tail+cast+on&mid=8031EC236F7295FE29778031EC236F7295FE2977&view=detail&FORM=VIRE1


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## tired n' cranky (Aug 2, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Nancy, you are right, each pattern works a bit differently. Many times a pattern will tell us to cast on a certain number of stitches and work until the length is so long from the cast on edge. Other times it really isn't specified.
> 
> Some cast on methods result in more "length" than others. Some patterns are more specific and state that after the cast on to work a specific number of rows. It all depends on the particular pattern, there really are no hard and fast rules on this one.


I never gave it this much thought, I usually do a long tail. So, I am going to start an afghan as a wedding gift. The border is seed stitch, any suggestions as to the cast on? I was thinking cable cast on, wish the yarn would get here!


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## grandmann (Feb 4, 2011)

kidbear said:


> You do your cast-on row and the next row is row 1


That's the way I read the pattern. You cast on the number of stitches the pattern calls for. Row 1, Row2, Row3 and etc.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Floozie, I just thought we were expressing our knitting feelings--not bitching!

I was taught by my grandmother that if we disagree, and don't leave as friends, then one of us is narrow and shallow!

That sums up this whole mess!


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## Hannelore (Oct 26, 2011)

I use this method quite often and have never thought of the cast on row as the first row. My mother taught me to cast on this way when I first learnt to knit. I think you need to look at your pattern to see which cast on method is best to use for that particular pattern.


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## sparky36 (Jan 10, 2012)

PaKnitter said:


> You are always right Courier and everyone else is always wrong no matter what the discussion is.


I really wished that we could all just get along!!!

I thought this was a forum for reasonable questions and courteous, helpful responses. I found this response made me very uncomfortable and seemed to be very personal against Courier770.

I hope this site can return to that mission.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Don't take it personally, I'm not going to.


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## Grandma Jo (Feb 18, 2011)

I do the long tail cast on, but a little differently than the video showed. I go around my left thumb but bring the yarn around with my left hand and onto the needle. I think my way looks easier than that on the video. 

As for Courier 770, I think she is a very experienced knitter and most of the time she is right. Knittng is a very personal thing though and we all have our preferences in the way we do things. If questions are asked on KP, we should all keep that in mind with the answers that we get. I do not think this is a site for getting upset with others. Be friendly and kind and helpful.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

This particular question has resulted in vast differing of opinions and schools of thought. So it would seem there really is no one right answer. 

Though I am going to go way back on this thread. someone posted that cable cast on stitches are loose and "floppy"...or "sloppy" not sure which word was used. That's not always true. With practice a cable cast on,
can be just as firm as any other.

At the moment one of the projects on my needles is the "Sea Lettuce Scarf", where picots are formed by doing a cable cast on, followed by a cast off. A great project to perfect your technique with the cable cast on method as is the "Not Entirely Entrelac" Scarf.


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## grandmann (Feb 4, 2011)

Jude2444 said:


> When you cast on using the long tail cast on method, is the cast on row considered the first row or is the next row considered row 1.
> Thanks in advance


Lets get back to the question.


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## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

Jude2444 said:


> BEChristianson said:
> 
> 
> > Your pattern usually will say cast on # of stitches then it will say Row 1 ..... So that would make me think that the cast on row does not count as the 1st row. Yes?
> ...


In using the long tail CO I always consider the first knitted row as the wrong side. The right side has no gap between the CO stitches and the first row. Hope this helps.


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## MamaBonz 55 (Sep 24, 2011)

DragonWhoKnits said:


> I like the Twisted German cast on, which is a variation of the long-tail and also called the Old Norwegian, and in that cast on you do actually end up with what amounts to the first knit/purl stitch being done as you cast on...
> 
> For me, I don't get hot and bothered about it. If the pattern says count it as the first row, I do.. If it doesn't, I don't. I'll look at things as I progress and adjust my length accordingly.
> 
> ...


I love your attitude. Maybe that's because I do the same. I usually do the Twisted German too and almost always count it as the first row of knitting. OTOH, some other types of CO don't work very well as a first row of knitting. All depends on the project and how I happen to feel that day.

Hmmmm, do I hear the knitting police sirens in the distance? Nah, probably not. Too bad. Knitters Jailhouse might be just the place for me if there's plenty of yarn there.


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

If a pattern ask you to cast on using the long tail the adjustment is already built into the pattern and row 1 is row 1, row 2 is row 2, etc. 

With other patterns I wouldn't change the row numbers. Just knit or purl to get where you need to be to begin row 1 if you are going to use a different cast on.


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## mousepotato (May 30, 2011)

Jude2444 said:


> When you cast on using the long tail cast on method, is the cast on row considered the first row or is the next row considered row 1.
> Thanks in advance


Long tail, knitting on, and cable cast ons can all be considered the first row of your item, since in effect in casting the stitches on you are knitting them at the same time.


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

mousepotato said:


> Jude2444 said:
> 
> 
> > When you cast on using the long tail cast on method, is the cast on row considered the first row or is the next row considered row 1.
> ...


Now would you start with row 2 of the pattern or start with row 1 when you cast on this way. I start with row 1 because I thought it looked a little funny when starting with row 2.
(know the pattern may make a difference and I'm one of those knitters who follows a pattern to the 't')


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## Becca (Jan 26, 2011)

CWS: If we all stop to think about what we are asking and saying we will come to the correct conclusion.

The cast on row is just that...a cast on row. You have yet to start knitting or doing anything with the stitches on the needle.

Cast on 25 stitches
Row 1: K3, yo, K2tog, etc. This is your first row of the pattern and this is where you start counting.

When in doubt, Google your query.

Happy knitting.


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## mousepotato (May 30, 2011)

PaKnitter said:


> mousepotato said:
> 
> 
> > Jude2444 said:
> ...


<G> You did note that I used the word *can* in that sentence. If you choose to use a longtail cast on row as row 1, you would actually start with row 2 of the pattern. I, generally, do not count my cast ons as the first row, personally.


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

*can* was noted...


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## ginamarie12345 (Mar 13, 2012)

Funny, I never knew there were so many cast on types. The only one I know is the long tail method and didn't know what the name of it was either.... I never consider it as a row 1....


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## mousepotato (May 30, 2011)

ginamarie12345 said:


> Funny, I never knew there were so many cast on types. The only one I know is the long tail method and didn't know what the name of it was either.... I never consider it as a row 1....


There are a lot of different cast off methods as well. Most of us normally use only one or two of either of them I think.


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

ginamarie12345 said:


> Funny, I never knew there were so many cast on types. The only one I know is the long tail method and didn't know what the name of it was either.... I never consider it as a row 1....


There's a book coming out that's over a hundred ways to cast on and bind off.


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## Jude2444 (Feb 13, 2012)

One Hundred?! I don't know whether to be horrified or thrilled


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## Grandma Jo (Feb 18, 2011)

Jude2444 said:


> One Hundred?! I don't know whether to be horrified or thrilled


I think I am horrified. We would want to try them all to see what we would like best and not have time for knitting.
:roll:


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## Becca (Jan 26, 2011)

What is the title of the book that will tantalize us with so many cast-on, bind-off choices? So far I have tried 12 cast-ons and 3 bind-offs, but my lists are still growing.


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## mavies (Feb 16, 2011)

But what if----in Row One there are directions to increase or YO or anything else- You really can't do that in the cast on, can you? So Row one comes after the cast on row.


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## mousepotato (May 30, 2011)

mavies said:


> But what if----in Row One there are directions to increase or YO or anything else- You really can't do that in the cast on, can you? So Row one comes after the cast on row.


Actually, yes, you can do these things. Long tail can be done to show both the knit and purl sides of a stitch, and inserting a yo is fairly easy to do as well. Long tail does work the work a row, it's all knitter's choice.


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

mavies said:


> But what if----in Row One there are directions to increase or YO or anything else- You really can't do that in the cast on, can you? So Row one comes after the cast on row.


The long tail works well for a pattern that starts as you mentioned because the stitches are already there to grab ahold of.


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## ginamarie12345 (Mar 13, 2012)

Isn't that the truth.....as well as spending too much time on KP...lol.... I am taking a break and going to read a book tonight...


Grandma Jo said:


> Jude2444 said:
> 
> 
> > One Hundred?! I don't know whether to be horrified or thrilled
> ...


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

ginamarie12345 said:


> Isn't that the truth.....as well as spending too much time on KP...lol.... I am taking a break and going to read a book tonight...
> 
> 
> Grandma Jo said:
> ...


I think I may not have enough years left to try them all and complete my knitting projects so I'll pass.


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

I was wrong. It isn't a hundred ways to cast on and bind off. It's actually "211 Ways to Begin and End Your Knitting."

Check it out here:
http://www.amazon.com/Cast-On-Bind-Off-Knitting/dp/1604680857/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS?ie=UTF8&coliid=I22I6L0HT2YMVV&colid=LOT3O1BOU8QL

It says there are 120 ways to cast on in the book.


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## Hannelore (Oct 26, 2011)

lostarts said:


> I was wrong. It isn't a hundred ways to cast on and bind off. It's actually "211 Ways to Begin and End Your Knitting."
> 
> Check it out here:
> http://www.amazon.com/Cast-On-Bind-Off-Knitting/dp/1604680857/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS?ie=UTF8&coliid=I22I6L0HT2YMVV&colid=LOT3O1BOU8QL
> ...


Don't tell us any more. We will never be able to sleep again for worrying about which way to start and which way to end our work. :-D :-D :wink:


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

I just finished a shawl, and bound it off with a picot bind off that was very pretty. 

Casting on and binding off can add an extra design element to anything you knit. 

It can even be used to make a structural difference. For instance, the picot bind off I used is VERY stretchy, and not only would look great at the top of a toe-up sock, but would ensure that it would go on over your heel.


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