# To Knot or not to Knot, that is the question



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

I'd love to get the general thinking on how to secure tails whether from binding on or off, changing yarn in mid knitting, or sewing seams with yarn. I've read in knitting tips that it's adequate to weave the yarn into the stitches, however as a seamstress, I would back stitch with the machine to secure thread ends, or I would knot securely for all hand sewing, so I'm very uncomfortable with relying on weaving in for knitting. I also feel like then there are these little short pieces of yarn that may pop through to the right side and look unsightly, and what's going to happen when these knitted items are washed in the machine (as in machine washable acrylics and some wool combinations)? Are these ends eventually going to work their way out and come unraveled? Even in just pulling a sweater on and off seems like it could at some point pull those wild ends out. What's the thinking on this? Am I being overly concerned? Has anyone ever had something come undone like this?


----------



## sandyP (Jun 20, 2012)

I always use a knot to secure the knitting. I then weave in the ends and I have never had anything come unravelled........yet! I have used acrylic and machine washable items too and not had this problem.


----------



## sandyP (Jun 20, 2012)

I always use a knot to secure the knitting. I then weave in the ends and I have never had anything come unravelled........yet! I have used acrylic and machine washable items too and not had this problem.


----------



## sandyP (Jun 20, 2012)

Sorry don't know why that came up twice.


----------



## Buttons (Feb 11, 2011)

When I add another ball of yarn, I do the magic knot. Otherwise, I knot mine. I did several afghans and after being washed several times, it popped through. I hate when that happens.

I would love to here about the feedback on this myself.


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

Well, thanks twice Sandy. I just don't understand the knot-phobic who shun them. If they're fastened to the back side of the stitch, there's no way they can be seen on the right side.


----------



## Joy Marshall (Apr 6, 2011)

My mother taught me to knit many, many years ago. The main thing she drummed into my head was that there must never be a knot in knitting. It is so ingrained I could not ever bring myself to use a knot except at the end of a row.
There are many ways to join yarns, and I think all of them are described on knitting sites and utube.


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

Thanks for your input Joy and buttons. I have used the magic knot in chunky yarn and it simply disappears even if it somehow ends up on the right side.. It doesn't though. Somehow it always ended up on the back of the stitch and seems to stay there. OK, so far it's two to one for knotting.


----------



## starrz-delight (Dec 5, 2011)

Magic knot here love it , never had one come undone or show thru


----------



## nannymaid (Jul 7, 2011)

I always knot and weave the ends, just not worth the risk of a possible hole forming,....but then I am a sort of 'belt and braces' type of person!


----------



## purl2diva (Feb 25, 2011)

I don't use knots but I do a thorough weaving back and fiorth several times. I have never had anything come undone. In fact, on occasion I have wanted to redo a sweater, hat, etc and ended up having to cut into the garment because I couldn't find an end to start unraveling. I do use the magic knot when adding a new skein of yarn.


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

purl2diva said:


> I don't use knots but I do a thorough weaving back and fiorth several times. I have never had anything come undone. In fact, on occasion I have wanted to redo a sweater, hat, etc and ended up having to cut into the garment because I couldn't find an end to start unraveling. I do use the magic knot when adding a new skein of yarn.


Ah so. When you weave back and forth, why knot (oops, I mean why not) just knit the tail in? I've tried that and thought it seemed more secure. I guess you wouldn't do it on a bind off, but most anywhere else. Also, I've tried the double knit join-in demonstrated on knittinghelp.com. It's especially good if you're changing colors, but a bit tricky to master.


----------



## Patty Sutter (Apr 17, 2012)

As another seamstress, you can backstitch. especially on seams I will work the tail up the seam and then turn to work down the same length of the seam.
I have done the same thing when weaving in ends, on scarves I feel much safer as the ends take a lot of abuse. 
I do a knit cast on, so knitting the tail in would be on the second row, but depending on what I'm making, I've done that too.


----------



## nanma esther (Aug 22, 2011)

Patty Sutter said:


> As another seamstress, you can backstitch. especially on seams I will work the tail up the seam and then turn to work down the same length of the seam.
> I have done the same thing when weaving in ends, on scarves I feel much safer as the ends take a lot of abuse.
> I do a knit cast on, so knitting the tail in would be on the second row, but depending on what I'm making, I've done that too.


me too


----------



## AmyKnits (Aug 20, 2011)

I knot everything. I put the joins in the seams or edges so you will never see them. I am afraid to trust the other methods... Russian Join, magic knot. 

I don't think it matters if you make knots as long as they are in the seams or edges... no one will ever know or see them. The inside of my work looks just as nice as the outside because I do my joining where it won't be seen.


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

AmyKnits said:


> The inside of my work looks just as nice as the outside because I do my joining where it won't be seen.


You're a perfectionist (anyone who could knit that checked scarf MUST be) and I so agree that it's important to have things look as nice as possible from all angles. It's like when I finish a cabinet I have to do the back side even if it will sit against the wall. Maybe someday it won't.

All these comments are such a help! What a blessing to have advice, suggestions, input, and yes, even criticism, from people who have experience and knowhow, and the good grace to share them.


----------



## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

I'm knot-phobic. No reason for my phobia; no one ever taught me how to join a new ball or sew a seam in hand-knitted fabric. Maybe I read it somewhere?

I have trouble when I come to a factory knot in one of three or four plies ... Just from how difficult it is to undo those, I _know_ it's never likely to come undone on its own. I stall, but usually give in and knit it into the project. However, when the knot is a join of the entire strand of yarn, I pick it open and splice the ends before continuing.

I have a lovely, bulky, orange pullover I picked up in a second-hand store. Its maker was a firm believer in knots ... with very long tails! I _needed_ to pick each knot open and weave in the tails, before I washed and wore it!

Yes, sometimes a tail end will work its way out on the public side of something; I just poke it back to the private side. NEVER cut it off, or - eventually, after a series of such snips - it will become short enough to begin unravelling. To date, none of the things I've knit/crocheted has come apart or begun to unravel, and some of them are well over 25 years old and still in service. Most are acrylic.


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

Thanks Jessica-Jean. I just needed reassurance. Oh, the Nimbus cowl neck sweater I just finished came out fine, though not like the photo---that model must be a size 2 and they put an X-large sweater on her. The cowl on mine simply folds over like an very wide turtle neck. I added 6" to each sleeve and an extra row or two to the body. The medium fits me fine (I'd normally wear Small anything.) Trouble is, the friend I knitted it for is a good size or two larger than I, and even though she likes her sweaters fairly tight, I don't think this one will work for her. Guess I'll have to keep it. Darn. 

So even after all that blood, sweat, and swears, I'm thinking I'll remake it for her in a large size. I just ordered 8 balls of 3.5 oz. #4 medium 210 yds wool/acrylic plus one in a slightly different shade of the same color. It was intended for a sweater for her husband to be knitted with #6 and 7 needles, but the color would be good for her too. The Nimbus called for  4 (4, 5) hanks Twinkle Handknits Soft Chunky, 100% virgin merino wool, 7 oz/200 g, 83 yds/75 m, #08. I used 4-1/2 balls of Lion Brand Jiffy Thick & Quick 5 oz. 84 yds. 100% acrylic on #19 needles, and used just over 4 balls. (I probably made a mistake in thinking it would work as well, and yes, I DID knit a gage that looked right.) Do you think I could make this new yarn work for that sweater or would I just be asking for more trouble? Don't try to answer now. Take a week to read this. BTW the Twinkle yarn is $25 a ball, the least I saw it for was $18.75 and the colors sucked. No way I could pay that! What would you suggest as a substitution?


----------



## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

I'm no use on substituting yarns, sorry. I don't often make sweaters either, and I'd have to win a very large lottery, before I'd think of buying yarn so costly!

Glad you mastered the pattern! I've often found myself repeating patterns that were difficult to digest the first time around.


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

Jessica-Jean said:


> I'm no use on substituting yarns, sorry. I don't often make sweaters either, and I'd have to win a very large lottery, before I'd think of buying yarn so costly!
> 
> Glad you mastered the pattern! I've often found myself repeating patterns that were difficult to digest the first time around.


Shoot! I was so sure you knew just EVERYTHING. Now I'm dissillusioned. OK, does ANYBODY have the answer to my question about yarn substitution? Is there a chart for that somewhere?


----------



## 3mom (Apr 20, 2011)

Magic Knot :thumbup:


----------



## Leonora (Apr 22, 2011)

I've been knitting for nearly 60 years, always just weaved the ends in and never to this day have I had any come thru to the other side or undone, and always washed what was needed in the washing machine and tumble dried if applicable.



Norma B. said:


> I'd love to get the general thinking on how to secure tails whether from binding on or off, changing yarn in mid knitting, or sewing seams with yarn. I've read in knitting tips that it's adequate to weave the yarn into the stitches, however as a seamstress, I would back stitch with the machine to secure thread ends, or I would knot securely for all hand sewing, so I'm very uncomfortable with relying on weaving in for knitting. I also feel like then there are these little short pieces of yarn that may pop through to the right side and look unsightly, and what's going to happen when these knitted items are washed in the machine (as in machine washable acrylics and some wool combinations)? Are these ends eventually going to work their way out and come unraveled? Even in just pulling a sweater on and off seems like it could at some point pull those wild ends out. What's the thinking on this? Am I being overly concerned? Has anyone ever had something come undone like this?


----------



## woodart (Jul 1, 2011)

I don't knot. When I'm nearly to the end of a ball of wool I take out half of the strands for about 3 inches (staggering the length of these and then do the same on the end of the next ball of yarn - and splice these together - then continue knitting. 
When sewing the seams I try and make sure I have a long enough piece of matching yarn to sew up the entire side seam/sleeve seam without having to start in a new piece. I also leave a long enough tail when I cast on so that this can be used to sew up the seam.
When knitting horizontal stripes I carry the colour I'm not using up through the edge by twisting the unused colour around the working thread until I'm ready to start off with the alternate colour again.
Or if the stripes are quite deep (wide) then I'll use the tail to knit that section of the side seam.
Cheers
Ainslie.


----------



## flyssie (Jun 30, 2011)

I am an eclectic finisher - depending on garment and yarn, etc. So I use all of the above at times. 
The one I have trouble with is joining cotton yarn. It seems to show up so easily any double thickness!
Anyone got tips for this?
Thanks- Flyssie


----------



## flyssie (Jun 30, 2011)

I am an eclectic finisher - depending on garment and yarn, etc. So I use all of the above at times. 
The one I have trouble with is joining cotton yarn. It seems to show up so easily any double thickness!
Anyone got tips for this?
Thanks- Flyssie


----------



## cydneyjo (Aug 5, 2011)

Russian join, felt join (for wool) or braiding. Looking forward to trying magic knot.


----------



## Granalou (Aug 11, 2011)

Regardless of whether I knot, braid, splice or felt(wool) together to join yarn, when I have finished I always go back and use a dab of fabric glue to secure the tails . If you give the yarn a little tug , apply the glue and then stetch the garment a little then tail with the glue will disappear into the fabric then you cut the dangling end. I've never had a tail reappear since I started doing this, You can buy the washable glue from Joanns or Michaels and it lasts a long time.



Norma B. said:


> AmyKnits said:
> 
> 
> > The inside of my work looks just as nice as the outside because I do my joining where it won't be seen.
> ...


----------



## Marny CA (Jun 26, 2011)

I emailed a friend the YouTube video on how to knot together two pieces of yarn and she tried it and loved it!!

She used it for Swedish Weaving and will probably use the 'knot' for her tri-loom weaving, too.


----------



## TennGrand (Apr 6, 2011)

The Russian join is fantastic for most yarns except the really slippery ones , is very sturdy, and is invisible. See YouTube for a video.


----------



## val barnes (Nov 2, 2012)

i was always taught never to knot the wool, but to make sure you have enough yarn to go the end of the row


----------



## ju-68.hy (May 12, 2012)

I never join another ball of wool in the middle of a row.
If I see there is not enough wool to fin ish the row, I cut off enough about 15 cms and join a new ball to that at the
beginning of the row, and then sew those ends in when I sew up the sweater of whatever it is I am knitting. I also use to knot the wool, but there was always a mark where I see where
I joined it.



June.


----------



## KarenKnits (Mar 2, 2012)

I usually knot, although I do feel guilty since I've heard so many times since I started knitting that I shouldn't do it. I just don't want my hard work to come unraveled. However, I'm working on a shawl right now and have decided that when I need to add another skein of yarn, I do it at the end of a row since the shawl is reversible. I probably won't knot these.


----------



## GogoJules (Aug 27, 2012)

Unless knitting with many colours where changing and knotting is almost unavoidable, I tend to check my yarn and make the knotted joins right at the beginning of a new row. In this way they are worked into the seam of the garment, are secure and do not become unsightly.
Like one of the other members, I was also taught that the wrong side of your work should be as neat as the right side, if at all possible.
GogoJules


----------



## deane7535 (Jan 20, 2011)

I used the magic knot on a sweater wore the sweater once and ended up with a large hole in the middle of the side,seems the knot let loose even though i tested each one oh well...


----------



## momcat531 (Oct 27, 2011)

If you are using wool you can use the invisible braided join or the spit join and you will not have knots or loose ends to weave into your work. These can be seen on Utube.


----------



## Lucy1037 (Apr 16, 2011)

Russian join always for me. Quick, easy and very secure!! No tails.


----------



## dsimp4 (Nov 24, 2011)

None of my magic knots or weaves in ends has ever been noticeable or came loose. I love the magic knot, and sometimes on certain items I have tied knots at the ends of my rows and then weaves in the remaining tail, so far all is good. Good luck. Debbie


----------



## thegrape (Nov 11, 2011)

Magic knot or braided join. Two of the best things I've discovered on KP.


----------



## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I use the Russian Join method for EVERYTHING, joining a new skein, attaching yarn and picking up stitches along an edge and it can even be used with the tail from the cast on. Never have had one fail even with machine washing/drying. When stitching seams, I take the tail and with a tapestry needle weave it through the stitches of the seam.

Spit joins have been known to fail and a spit join changes the fibers, so that the join is not only visible but can be felt (stiff and hard).


----------



## MawMaw12 (Apr 30, 2012)

Patty Sutter said:


> As another seamstress, you can backstitch. especially on seams I will work the tail up the seam and then turn to work down the same length of the seam.
> I have done the same thing when weaving in ends, on scarves I feel much safer as the ends take a lot of abuse.
> I do a knit cast on, so knitting the tail in would be on the second row, but depending on what I'm making, I've done that too.


I do the same thing. Leave long enough tail that I weave the tail in one way then go back the other way. I also knit in the cast on tail in the second row. Works fine. As far as the join, I use all three depending on which suits the situation best.


----------



## Esther V. Wood (Sep 14, 2012)

Please take time to watch the U-Tube 
"How to join your yarn by making a double knot "
This took a minute or two to register in my old brain but no more sewing in of ends for me....

Copy/paste the bit between quotation marks.


----------



## elaineadams (Oct 17, 2011)

I always knot then weave in the ends...nothing unravels with the knot but if the woven in ends come out, they can be woven back in.


----------



## Janet.Sar (Jun 29, 2011)

I will only knot at the row ends where it will be sewn into a seam. But if making a scarf, for instance, where both sides are the right side - I weave in then dab the tiniest spot of fabric glue on the end to stop it poking out later!


----------



## dwidget (May 30, 2011)

Joy Marshall said:


> My mother taught me to knit many, many years ago. The main thing she drummed into my head was that there must never be a knot in knitting. It is so ingrained I could not ever bring myself to use a knot except at the end of a row.
> There are many ways to join yarns, and I think all of them are described on knitting sites and utube.


i grew up with the same adage: no knots in knitting. also there is the thought that it might be irritating to the wearer having a knot instead of a smooth finish. i use the russian join to join yarn. i love this method.


----------



## ACAROLG (Apr 30, 2011)

Google braided join- works wonders- no ends to weave in can't see and strong as can be!


----------



## sassy22 (Sep 29, 2012)

I always purchase enough yarn to leave an end loose at a seam so I don't have to knot it and weave it in. I just sew it right into the seam and it never comes undone.


----------



## Sue Prenter (Mar 27, 2011)

Norma, check the site for information on joining yarn. I "splice " mine and it never comes apart. Cant remeber the name of my post but i managed to put pics in to show how its done! Knots can spoil the finished look. Others sometimes never join in the middle of a row and then use the yarn for sewing up edges when finishing the garment 

Happy knitting. Sue


----------



## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

The Russian Join/Splice, Braided Splice and Magic Knot methods can be used mid row. No ends to weave in at all. Even knots at the seam edge can be uncomfortable on some garments.


----------



## Lori Putz (Jul 13, 2011)

I have had too many holes appear in items that appear in places OTHER than my house (son's places), such afghans on the end of beds with unsightly ladders appearing. I also used chenille yarn and the magic knot just didn't cut it. I do though, try to attach at the end of rows.


----------



## 7914_Susie (Jun 21, 2012)

I recently made a pair of socks and needed to join in a new ball of wool around the heel area. I used the magic knot and tested to make sure it was secure. Once finished I washed the socks by hand and much to my dismay the knot came undone. I was so upset and had to do my best to secure the ends and mend the hole created. From now I am going to make sure I have enough yarn to complete a sock and will likely go back to joining seamed projects with knots at the sides.


----------



## dwilhelm (Dec 29, 2011)

Someone put a link about braiding the yarn to join. I have used that method and really like it. Does not show. I do leave some on either end of the braid to weave in. The video suggested to wash the item before clipping the ends so they would set.


----------



## pebbels (Oct 5, 2012)

I never knot I knit two strands together and always at the end of the row.Been knitting for 50 years and have had no problem with this method


----------



## sharon05676 (May 13, 2012)

Great question, thanks for soliciting all these good suggestions. I love KP for learning!


----------



## purplelady (Aug 23, 2012)

What is the magic knot?
I can not find it in a search.


----------



## LilgirlCA (Jan 22, 2011)

In My Opinion, whether you need to knot or not depends on the yarn and the pattern. Some yarns just won't stay woven in well. Others are slippery. Some knitting patterns are very lacy

I either use Magic Knot or I form a loop with the new yarn and the old yarn and knit a few stitches with doubled yarns then weave in the ends.

When I knit children's sweaters, I knot as I expect the wearer to be rougher on their clothing and that most items will go into washer and dryer.


----------



## GrammyZanne (Sep 17, 2012)

What's a magic knot? Even though my knitting I structure says NOOOOO knots EVER...I feel uncomfortable for all the reasons already mentioned...sounds like a magic knot is the answer.


----------



## GogoJules (Aug 27, 2012)

Lucy what is the Russian join?


----------



## GrammyZanne (Sep 17, 2012)

Instructor (arrr, spell check)


----------



## dalex1945 (Sep 28, 2011)

When changing to a new skein or ball of yarn, I tie a knot temporarily. A few rows later, I go back, untie the knot and weave the ends in.


----------



## pridie (May 24, 2011)

I weave my ends in the letter "S" or "Z". This way they are locked in.


----------



## jonibee (Nov 3, 2011)

Norma B. said:


> I'd love to get the general thinking on how to secure tails whether from binding on or off, changing yarn in mid knitting, or sewing seams with yarn. I've read in knitting tips that it's adequate to weave the yarn into the stitches, however as a seamstress, I would back stitch with the machine to secure thread ends, or I would knot securely for all hand sewing, so I'm very uncomfortable with relying on weaving in for knitting. I also feel like then there are these little short pieces of yarn that may pop through to the right side and look unsightly, and what's going to happen when these knitted items are washed in the machine (as in machine washable acrylics and some wool combinations)? Are these ends eventually going to work their way out and come unraveled? Even in just pulling a sweater on and off seems like it could at some point pull those wild ends out. What's the thinking on this? Am I being overly concerned? Has anyone ever had something come undone like this?


I'm inclined to agree with you ...as just weaving doesn't always work which I just found out on a recent project after washing I inspected and found a couple of woven ends were sticking out..so I will knot from now on.


----------



## MelissaC (May 27, 2012)

I always knot, then weave in the edges. It would make me nervous not to tie it off.


----------



## Katsch (Mar 15, 2011)

I have been using the magic knot but after reading the few horror stories of it coming undone, I am nervous. I will probably go back to knotting where it won't show.


----------



## farmgirl (Jul 19, 2011)

Like you I don't trust just weaving in...I knot


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

I knot in some places but I struggle with a guilty complex about it as I hear my knitting coach repeat in my head:

"NEVER KNOT KNIT NOT EVER"


----------



## suebuddah (Aug 26, 2011)

magic knot for me and weave ends in a s shape so they don't unravel, never had any complaints xx


----------



## AmyKnits (Aug 20, 2011)

Norma B. said:


> Thanks Jessica-Jean. I just needed reassurance. Oh, the Nimbus cowl neck sweater I just finished came out fine, though not like the photo---that model must be a size 2 and they put an X-large sweater on her. The cowl on mine simply folds over like an very wide turtle neck. I added 6" to each sleeve and an extra row or two to the body. The medium fits me fine (I'd normally wear Small anything.) Trouble is, the friend I knitted it for is a good size or two larger than I, and even though she likes her sweaters fairly tight, I don't think this one will work for her. Guess I'll have to keep it. Darn.
> 
> So even after all that blood, sweat, and swears, I'm thinking I'll remake it for her in a large size. I just ordered 8 balls of 3.5 oz. #4 medium 210 yds wool/acrylic plus one in a slightly different shade of the same color. It was intended for a sweater for her husband to be knitted with #6 and 7 needles, but the color would be good for her too. The Nimbus called for  4 (4, 5) hanks Twinkle Handknits Soft Chunky, 100% virgin merino wool, 7 oz/200 g, 83 yds/75 m, #08. I used 4-1/2 balls of Lion Brand Jiffy Thick & Quick 5 oz. 84 yds. 100% acrylic on #19 needles, and used just over 4 balls. (I probably made a mistake in thinking it would work as well, and yes, I DID knit a gage that looked right.) Do you think I could make this new yarn work for that sweater or would I just be asking for more trouble? Don't try to answer now. Take a week to read this. BTW the Twinkle yarn is $25 a ball, the least I saw it for was $18.75 and the colors sucked. No way I could pay that! What would you suggest as a substitution?


The yarn you bought is a worsted weight (4). I was going to suggest thick and quick and I see that is what you used for the first one. The price for the Twinkle is highway robbery! Ridiculous.

I would stick with the Thick and Quick or look at Bernat Roving wool. The Twinkle is simply that..unwoven roving. Probably about the same cost as the thick and quick and can be found at Joann's, Michaels or Hobby Lobby... whatever you have near. I don't like working with the roving because it tends to split, but some like the look of it. It also has to be hand washed.

I would recommend sticking with the Thick and Quick because it is the right weight and will be machine washable. Sounds like you had some trouble with the pattern AND the sweater fitting properly. I wouldn't suggest trying to "reinvent the wheel" here because you have already worked the learning curve on this one (worked out the bugs) and would have to start from scratch with a whole host of other problems if you were to try and substitute the yarn. :roll:

Back to the store to get some more thick and quick. Sorry.


----------



## MsIvy (Aug 5, 2011)

What is a Magic Knot?


----------



## Ginaellen (Sep 2, 2011)

Hi Norma, i am not sure about substituting a worsted weight yarn for a super bulky yarn. If you managed to get gauge your fabric would end up being very loosely woven. You could probably knit it with two strands together. A yarn I like that comes in many colors is Lambs Pride Bulky. It knits up as a super bulky yarn and is around 9 dollars for 125 yards. You can get a discount at WEBS If you spend over 50 dollars.


----------



## johannecw (Oct 25, 2011)

I don't tie a knot when I end my yarn. I weave it in; however, I do some backstitching while weaving the ends in. So far, so good!


----------



## Tove (Oct 27, 2012)

Ladies, I am now totally confused......to knot or not to knot, that is not the question, but several of you have referred to a technique called "magic knot" - can anyone please describe that to me?

I use the magic loop all the time but the magic knot? Sounds interesting.


----------



## morgansam51 (Apr 4, 2012)

Norma B. said:


> I'd love to get the general thinking on how to secure tails whether from binding on or off, changing yarn in mid knitting, or sewing seams with yarn. I've read in knitting tips that it's adequate to weave the yarn into the stitches, however as a seamstress, I would back stitch with the machine to secure thread ends, or I would knot securely for all hand sewing, so I'm very uncomfortable with relying on weaving in for knitting. I also feel like then there are these little short pieces of yarn that may pop through to the right side and look unsightly, and what's going to happen when these knitted items are washed in the machine (as in machine washable acrylics and some wool combinations)? Are these ends eventually going to work their way out and come unraveled? Even in just pulling a sweater on and off seems like it could at some point pull those wild ends out. What's the thinking on this? Am I being overly concerned? Has anyone ever had something come undone like this?


Maybe it comes from sewing for so many years but I always tie a knot. I just don't trust that any other method wouldn't, over time, come loose. I always tie a knot then weave the ends in.


----------



## ollie (Feb 15, 2011)

Just found a diagram for the magic knot on Techknitting and will be trying it - just because I have preached the "no knots ever" for so long and want to see if I can get down from my soap box. However, there are other joins that are secure and look great that I know I'll still be preaching. The fear of a knot popping out on the right side of the work and unravelling is so ingrained, I'm not sure it will disappear. I love the spit join, the Russian join is very easy, weaving in by using duplicate stitch for an inch or so is barely noticeable, joining at the seam line is so easy. knitting together for two or three stitches is also barely noticeable and secure.


----------



## quiltress588 (Feb 18, 2012)

I agree - I knot everything too. I've never been afraid the "knitting police" were going to show up at my door and arrest me for putting knots in my items. Since I do a lot of knitting for charities and know the laundry abuse they will receive I would never be comfortable with some of those other joins.

I also have to laugh when some get all in a dither about finding a knot in a skein. Good Lord with the amount of yardage that manufacturers do at a time there has to be a knot at some point.


----------



## valj46 (Jul 25, 2011)

i tried the magic knot not much magic as the knot is showing through just as i have finished the garment i shall go back to my normal way join in wool at the edge


Norma B. said:


> I'd love to get the general thinking on how to secure tails whether from binding on or off, changing yarn in mid knitting, or sewing seams with yarn. I've read in knitting tips that it's adequate to weave the yarn into the stitches, however as a seamstress, I would back stitch with the machine to secure thread ends, or I would knot securely for all hand sewing, so I'm very uncomfortable with relying on weaving in for knitting. I also feel like then there are these little short pieces of yarn that may pop through to the right side and look unsightly, and what's going to happen when these knitted items are washed in the machine (as in machine washable acrylics and some wool combinations)? Are these ends eventually going to work their way out and come unraveled? Even in just pulling a sweater on and off seems like it could at some point pull those wild ends out. What's the thinking on this? Am I being overly concerned? Has anyone ever had something come undone like this?


----------



## rkr (Aug 15, 2012)

I've always woven in all ends, over some 65 years of knitting worked. Very few ends ever popped out but those were still only at the tail end of several inches of weaving and easily snipped off after several washings because by that time the ends were securely stretched into the garment with wearing and were not going to loosen any further.
Magic knot is also a great new invention! I was a little worried in the single, un-plied strand yarns (especially sock wt) but those are bearing up well as I use only all wool and they 'felt' together while knitting and then wear and the washing's a third 'fulling' treatment of the fiber to ensure locking the fibers together.
I was more worried about feeling the actual little knot in the sock while wearing but in the springiness of good quality, real wool the knot disappears and cannot be located later.
And like Amyknits, Mom and Grandma instilled this in me too:
<<The inside of my work looks just as nice as the outside because I do my joining where it won't be seen.>>
The inside looks as good as the outside!
From queries on page 5 - the Magic knot - and posted on another thread here on KP (on the bottom of this link's page, last video)
http://janerichmond.blogspot.ca/p/tutorials.html

If your pattern calls for a more loosely worked stitch or row, there is a definite possibility of the knot (any type/style of knot) showing through on the front side. It's not just the magic knot at fault. Magic knot just has no tails. In that case then the knot should definitely be placed along the selvedge or in a place where they will not be seen or can be camouflaged later in finishing. 
Knotting anywhere in the row itself should most likely be worked only when your pattern stitch is fairly firm or dense enough to hold the knot at least between the stitches or to the back of the work, not allowing it to slip to the front.


----------



## Grandma11 (Jan 21, 2012)

I agree with sandyP


----------



## Bridgitis (Aug 8, 2011)

If using 4 ply leave a 2
!tail , divide in half, tie a knot and weave in each end


----------



## m_azingrace (Mar 14, 2012)

Well, today I learned another new thing...actually 3 new things! Although I've been knitting for more than 50 years, I never knew about the magic knot, Russian join or the braided join. I've always started a new ball at the beginning of a row, and that's good for flat work. But joining a new ball in the round has always been a problem for me. No more...I have choices now! These techniques are all demonstrated in YouTube, and appear to be very easy. Thanks, Ladies, for teaching an old knittter some new tricks.


----------



## ladyleopard3 (Oct 17, 2012)

Weaving in works. While weaving, randomly, purposely, split the yarn/stitches.
Try raveling out your work with split stitches!!
Also, my mom taught me to weave 3 ways--more secure.
Hope this helps!!
Patty S


----------



## Waterford Girl (Mar 10, 2012)

Like Joy, it was ingrained in my head never use a knot to join yarn. I have never had a problem . When weaving in the ends I will weave forward and then back again. 
Happy knitting


----------



## Joy Marshall (Apr 6, 2011)

AmyKnits said:


> I knot everything. I put the joins in the seams or edges so you will never see them. I am afraid to trust the other methods... Russian Join, magic knot.
> 
> I don't think it matters if you make knots as long as they are in the seams or edges... no one will ever know or see them. The inside of my work looks just as nice as the outside because I do my joining where it won't be seen.


Yes, exactly. That is my preferred method. it is when knitting in the round that a nice join is needed.


----------



## josephinemiller (Jul 12, 2012)

I also use knots but I put them in the seams. I!m not comfortable doing it any other way.


----------



## grandma clark (Oct 27, 2012)

I am a seamstress as well as a quilter, but when it comes to my knitting I rarely knot them, I've always been afraid of unsightly knots showing in the top of my work. I also knit them in as I start my work, and weave any ends in the row and back down the row. That is the same as doing a back stitch on a sewing machine. The only time I leave the starting tail when I cast on is so I don't have to place a marker to show the starting point of my socks.


----------



## VCenter (Oct 1, 2012)

Norma B. said:


> I'd love to get the general thinking on how to secure tails whether from binding on or off, changing yarn in mid knitting, or sewing seams with yarn. I've read in knitting tips that it's adequate to weave the yarn into the stitches, however as a seamstress, I would back stitch with the machine to secure thread ends, or I would knot securely for all hand sewing, so I'm very uncomfortable with relying on weaving in for knitting. I also feel like then there are these little short pieces of yarn that may pop through to the right side and look unsightly, and what's going to happen when these knitted items are washed in the machine (as in machine washable acrylics and some wool combinations)? Are these ends eventually going to work their way out and come unraveled? Even in just pulling a sweater on and off seems like it could at some point pull those wild ends out. What's the thinking on this? Am I being overly concerned? Has anyone ever had something come undone like this?


I too hate knots. Previous to KP had always wasted yarn and only started/stopped at end of a row to weave in later.
I am an "extreme weave inner" I split the yarn as I weave in my ends. I try to weave in an area that it won't be noticed. However, the most important part is after I weave in one direction I turn it around and weave just a half inch or so back in the same direction I had just come from. Since I have been doing this I haven't found anymore loose yarn sticking out after washing. Good Luck


----------



## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

I'm all over the lot on this one. I have, on rare occasion, even knotted in the middle of a row.

Last night I used the Russian join somewhere mid-row on an item I'll be felting. It was perfect, and totally invisible, and even though it took a couple of fiddly minutes to do it, there'll be no weaving in of ends -- hooray!!

I would be more prone to use Magic Knot if it were easier to control where the join actually happens so you can easily change colors mid-row. You CAN control it, but it's a pretty fiddly process and didn't look all that sure a bet to me when I viewed the video. (Wonder what I did with that link????)

Oh well, here are some of the join bookmarks I've collected (mostly due to KP), in case they're of interest to anyone:

RUSSIAN JOIN 



 and http://community.knitpicks.com/notes/Joining_Yarn_-_Russian_Join
photo tutorial here: http://twistyarnshop.blogspot.com/2009/05/russian-join.html
MAGIC KNOT JOIN http://janerichmond.blogspot.ca/p/tutorials.html
INVISIBLE BRAIDED JOIN 



THere's also a "braided join" that is similar to Russian joining, a bit more work, but the results are a less thick join to create a more even work with less bulk.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHWbKOta02M
Here is a compilation of all known joins demonstrated on Youtube: http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-84033-1.html#1561878
Braided Join Joining Yarn - The invisible Braided Join with 1 color yarn - Knitting and Crochet 



Back Join: http://techknitting.blogspot.com/2007/07/back-to-back-join.html


----------



## KnitterNatalie (Feb 20, 2011)

Patty Sutter said:


> As another seamstress, you can backstitch. especially on seams I will work the tail up the seam and then turn to work down the same length of the seam.
> I have done the same thing when weaving in ends, on scarves I feel much safer as the ends take a lot of abuse.
> I do a knit cast on, so knitting the tail in would be on the second row, but depending on what I'm making, I've done that too.


This is what I do as well, because I was told when I was learning to knit that truly good knitters never knotted their yarns...sometimes weaving the yarn as described above leaves a "lumpy" area on the back side of the project. I don't like that!


----------



## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

Norma B. said:


> Thanks Jessica-Jean. I just needed reassurance. Oh, the Nimbus cowl neck sweater I just finished came out fine, though not like the photo---that model must be a size 2 and they put an X-large sweater on her. The cowl on mine simply folds over like an very wide turtle neck. I added 6" to each sleeve and an extra row or two to the body. The medium fits me fine (I'd normally wear Small anything.) Trouble is, the friend I knitted it for is a good size or two larger than I, and even though she likes her sweaters fairly tight, I don't think this one will work for her. Guess I'll have to keep it. Darn.
> 
> So even after all that blood, sweat, and swears, I'm thinking I'll remake it for her in a large size. I just ordered 8 balls of 3.5 oz. #4 medium 210 yds wool/acrylic plus one in a slightly different shade of the same color. It was intended for a sweater for her husband to be knitted with #6 and 7 needles, but the color would be good for her too. The Nimbus called for  4 (4, 5) hanks Twinkle Handknits Soft Chunky, 100% virgin merino wool, 7 oz/200 g, 83 yds/75 m, #08. I used 4-1/2 balls of Lion Brand Jiffy Thick & Quick 5 oz. 84 yds. 100% acrylic on #19 needles, and used just over 4 balls. (I probably made a mistake in thinking it would work as well, and yes, I DID knit a gage that looked right.) Do you think I could make this new yarn work for that sweater or would I just be asking for more trouble? Don't try to answer now. Take a week to read this. BTW the Twinkle yarn is $25 a ball, the least I saw it for was $18.75 and the colors sucked. No way I could pay that! What would you suggest as a substitution?


I seldom use the exact yarn specified for a pattern but I do usually try to susbstute a yarn in the same weight. Much easier that way. Changing to a worsted weight on a pattern intended for chunky is a leap but it could be done. You would have to experiment with needle size to get the correct gauge and then examine the swatch to see if you like the result. It may be too loose or drapey to hold the shape of the design.
Or you can change the number of stitches throughout so that you can use the correct gauge for the yarn. If the pattern has a schematic with measurements this is not too difficult. It will require some dreaded math conversions.
Is Nimbus the Berroco pattern?

The yarn you have sounds like it might be Berroco Vintage (which is one of my all time favorites) and it does come in a chunky weight as well as worsted and DK.
Any excuse to buy more yarn!


----------



## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

I have been knitting for 57 years and crocheting for 39 years and I have never had problems with knots. Depending on what kind of yarn I am using, this is what I do. On the smooth yarn like Red Heart regular worsted weight, I always knot the yarn together at the end of a row. If it is a sweater, the knot will be in a seam. On the thicker, textured yarn like Lion Brand's Homespun, a know can be hidden anywhere in the garment, scarf, afghan, or whatever. I always double knot and leave long ends that I weave in separately in opposite directions. If I have just cast on for a knitted project, I always knit the tail into the first row. After weaving the ends, I pull the area before cutting off the excess end to loosen it so there is less chance that it will pop through. If it does pop through after washing, just cut off the little end that popped through. Hope this makes sense. I have never, ever had a problem with my knots or woven ends.


----------



## Ronie (Jan 21, 2011)

I do the magic knot when I am in the middle of something, I also like a certain kind of yarn that needs to be wound into balls so when I come across one of the manufactured knots I cut it out and do the magic knot there too.. 
You can't trust their knots I have had them come undone in my hands before.
The weaving in of the ends is always a wonder for me. I never know if I'm doing it right.. I also sew so when it comes to my ends I weave a bit one way then back tack the other way a few times they seem to hold, I also leave about 1/4 of a inch showing for stretching and washing. so far none have popped to the other side.. and the little nib I leave seems to disapear..
I would love to take a 'Finishing' class.. I'm cheap and don't want to pay a lot..LOL the problem is I want to take a lot of classes and even at great sales it costs a lot...


----------



## Grandma Marylou (Mar 8, 2011)

I have never knotted the yarn permanently in any items I have knitted and have never had the ends open and make a hole. I do, however, weave the ends in 2" (in both directions) for sock or lace yarn and up to 5" for worsted. Most directions say to weave ends in for 5 or 6 stitches. I always double or even triple that - better safe than sorry.


----------



## lyndaleen (Oct 25, 2012)

If it's wool, I moisten ends and the felt tog. Otherwise, it depends on where the joint is. I USUALLY knot, but sometimes weave back and forth, or, least of all knit the ends into the work. I like my possiblities like my men; plenitful! (just kidding-I don't even have a man)


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

I never use knots. I leave a long tail of yarn and weave it into the work. Yes, sometimes little bits of the ends will show. I clip them off. Part of the reason I use long tails of yarn is just to take care of the little bits that popout after washing sometimes. The ong strands of yarn are long enough to take care of the pop up question for a couple of lifetimes.


----------



## bretsfp (Apr 14, 2012)

I knot always, I don't trust weaving in either.


----------



## Frogsong (Feb 26, 2011)

I weave in the ends and then split the end of the yarn and run one through a stitch and then knot the two splits together over the stitch. I split the yarn so the knot isn't as big and noticeable.


----------



## yorkie1 (Sep 5, 2011)

I weave the tail back into the item along a place of the same color. It doesn't matter how short the end is as I run my needle back into a few sts. then thread the needle and pull it thru.
If the tail is longer I run it back thru several sts, pull that snug, then smooth the woven part and run the needle back thru (opposit direction) the same place, (hopefully going thru. some of the yarn I just pulled thru. I then pull it a little tight, cut the yarn close and then smooth out that area and the tail just disappears and never shows up again. 
I don't explain very good, but hope this makes sense.


----------



## momskii (Oct 25, 2012)

Since I do most of my knitting/crocheting for gifts, I always knot and then weave the ends in. I would feel so bad if something that I made started to unravel.


----------



## Mary Cardiff (Mar 18, 2012)

After useing a knitting machine I would only join yarn at the start of a row,and would knot the yarn,then work the ends in,


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

val barnes said:


> i was always taught never to knot the wool, but to make sure you have enough yarn to go the end of the row


Geeze, that's one of those "why didn't I think of that" easy-do's. Then there's no chance the knot will be a problem. Thanks!


----------



## ANNB04 (Oct 18, 2012)

My Mom also taught me to knit. Have never knotted. Have always woven in ends. Never had any mishaps.


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

dwidget said:


> i grew up with the same adage: no knots in knitting. also there is the thought that it might be irritating to the wearer having a knot instead of a smooth finish. i use the russian join to join yarn. i love this method.


You make a good point about the knot possibly being felt by the wearer if it's in a garment. It's tiny, but then maybe the wearer might be a princess and would feel the tiniest bump (as in the fairy tale "The Princess and the Pea". ;-)


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Norma B. said:


> Thanks Jessica-Jean. I just needed reassurance. Oh, the Nimbus cowl neck sweater I just finished came out fine, though not like the photo---that model must be a size 2 and they put an X-large sweater on her. The cowl on mine simply folds over like an very wide turtle neck. I added 6" to each sleeve and an extra row or two to the body. The medium fits me fine (I'd normally wear Small anything.) Trouble is, the friend I knitted it for is a good size or two larger than I, and even though she likes her sweaters fairly tight, I don't think this one will work for her. Guess I'll have to keep it. Darn.
> 
> So even after all that blood, sweat, and swears, I'm thinking I'll remake it for her in a large size. I just ordered 8 balls of 3.5 oz. #4 medium 210 yds wool/acrylic plus one in a slightly different shade of the same color. It was intended for a sweater for her husband to be knitted with #6 and 7 needles, but the color would be good for her too. The Nimbus called for  4 (4, 5) hanks Twinkle Handknits Soft Chunky, 100% virgin merino wool, 7 oz/200 g, 83 yds/75 m, #08. I used 4-1/2 balls of Lion Brand Jiffy Thick & Quick 5 oz. 84 yds. 100% acrylic on #19 needles, and used just over 4 balls. (I probably made a mistake in thinking it would work as well, and yes, I DID knit a gage that looked right.) Do you think I could make this new yarn work for that sweater or would I just be asking for more trouble? Don't try to answer now. Take a week to read this. BTW the Twinkle yarn is $25 a ball, the least I saw it for was $18.75 and the colors sucked. No way I could pay that! What would you suggest as a substitution?


I almost always substitute yarns and have never had a problem doing so, but I stick to the pattern specifications as far as yarn weight (lace, DK, worsted, bulky, etc.) gauge, and fiber type. I think that the more specs one changes, the greater are the chances of a disaster. Very rarely do I buy pricey yarns, never do I buy extremely pricey yarns; I was born to parents who went through the Great Depression and it left its mark I guess. As long as I can find another yarn that meets the pattern and yarn specifications, I never have a problem; I start my search by yarn weight and gradually draw the other issues into play. I've found it to be worth the effort because I don't like (nasty) surprises :~).


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

GrammyZanne said:


> What's a magic knot? Even though my knitting I structure says NOOOOO knots EVER...I feel uncomfortable for all the reasons already mentioned...sounds like a magic knot is the answer.


YouTube has an exellent video of the magic knot which is very easy to understand and follow. It MUST be done absolutely as she explains or it will fail. You're essentially doing two square knots that work against each other so the tighter you pull, the more impossible for it to come loose. If you do it wrong you get what's called a granny knot and it won't survive pulling because the strands aren't working against each other. All you have to remember once you get the directions is "under, over, and through". The "under" is vital.


----------



## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

I don't use knots. I simply weave the ends in. Just washed a striped cotton pullover that I'd knitted and dried it in the dryer. No problems whatsoever.

Admittedly, I hand wash and air dry most of the things I knit. The only time I've had something start to come apart was when I used the spit join. I evidently didn't felt the join enough.

Hazel


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

AmyKnits said:


> The yarn you bought is a worsted weight (4). I was going to suggest thick and quick and I see that is what you used for the first one. The price for the Twinkle is highway robbery! Ridiculous.
> 
> I would stick with the Thick and Quick or look at Bernat Roving wool. The Twinkle is simply that..unwoven roving. Probably about the same cost as the thick and quick and can be found at Joann's, Michaels or Hobby Lobby... whatever you have near. I don't like working with the roving because it tends to split, but some like the look of it. It also has to be hand washed.
> 
> ...


Thank you Amy. Last night (or this morning around 2:00 a.m.) I made that same decision after trying to find something similar. After hours of searching online it does seem the WoolEase Thick & Quick is it. I did work out a number of unreported bugs in the Nimbus sweater pattern that caused a lot of grief including hours here begging (and getting) the help I needed, and noted them all on my revised set of directions so this time it'll be smooth sailing.


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

Tove said:


> Ladies, I am now totally confused......to knot or not to knot, that is not the question, but several of you have referred to a technique called "magic knot" - can anyone please describe that to me?
> 
> I use the magic loop all the time but the magic knot? Sounds interesting.


I answered this to someone else. See if you can find that post. Check YouTube for the video.


----------



## Gabriell (Sep 13, 2011)

I knot, can't imagine trusting just the weaving in.


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

quiltress588 said:


> I agree - I knot everything too. I've never been afraid the "knitting police" were going to show up at my door and arrest me for putting knots in my items. Since I do a lot of knitting for charities and know the laundry abuse they will receive I would never be comfortable with some of those other joins.
> 
> I also have to laugh when some get all in a dither about finding a knot in a skein. Good Lord with the amount of yardage that manufacturers do at a time there has to be a knot at some point.


Thanks for the chuckle! I've heard of mattress police coming for you with guns drawn if you remove the "do not remove this tag" from the mattress, but never the knitting police. I think I'm in BIG doo-doo!


----------



## knittykitty (Mar 22, 2011)

I have discovered the Russian Join and really like it. You can view it at the following site.

KK





 -


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

Knitry said:


> I'm all over the lot on this one. I have, on rare occasion, even knotted in the middle of a row.
> 
> Last night I used the Russian join somewhere mid-row on an item I'll be felting. It was perfect, and totally invisible, and even though it took a couple of fiddly minutes to do it, there'll be no weaving in of ends -- hooray!!
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for including those links! You're a gem! That should be a help to everyone as well as me! I'd found a few, but this is such a complete list, here's a suggestion to others: Highlight this list, copy, and paste it into Word. I put it into my Knitting file so I can easily find them and the links will take you directly to the explanations and demos. Saves a LOT of search time! :thumbup:


----------



## LouWonna (Sep 19, 2012)

I am so afraid of ravels I do both...I weave in for several stitches the split the plys of thread and tie securely. I do this both in knitting and crochet. It just makes me feel better. When for babies (frequently washings) I've done two knots. Eccentric? Maybe, but I've always enjoyed being on the edge of eccentricity! No one has ever seen my cleverly hidden knots, that I know of anyway!


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

GroodleMom said:


> Is Nimbus the Berroco pattern?


I don't think so. It's from Canadian Living magazine and was a freebie on knittingpatterncentral.com It's a beautiful sweater but had a number of errors I've worked out and noted for myself. I also could not pay $25 a skein for Twinkle yarn, hence the need for replacement. I've decided to use the same yarn I used before. Anyone else who'd like to make it would be welcomed to contact me for advice and my pattern corrections.


----------



## 4578 (Feb 2, 2011)

Leaving about 4" of yarn, I knot, weave, and weave back through the yarn of the first weaving, afterwhich I cut the yarn very close to the last weave. I usually go at an angle from the knitting as I have found it to be less noticeable. This is a secure method of making an almost invisible join. Other knitters have tried to find my joins and have not been able to do so.


----------



## Marny CA (Jun 26, 2011)

If 'you' are happy with the way you knot or don't knot, go for it.

Few things are 'one way only' -- whatever works for you is what is right.

When I come upon a manufacturer's knot, I cut it out and continue knitting (or crocheting) by knitting or crocheting in as though a new skein/ball is being introduced.

IF the pattern is a stockinette stitch, I add the new yarn at the seam.


----------



## Penny5 (Jun 22, 2011)

I try to watch when the yarn is running low and tie the knot at the end of the item I am knitting...


----------



## bboyc (Feb 6, 2011)

I usually overlap the yard and knit with them together and later weave in the two ends, unless the yarn is too think and then I spit splice if the yarn has plys (sic). Lots of folks in my knitting group use the Russian join but I haven't mastered it yet.
What is a "magic knot"?
Barb


----------



## Byrdgal (Jun 27, 2011)

AmyKnits said:


> I knot everything. I put the joins in the seams or edges so you will never see them. I am afraid to trust the other methods... Russian Join, magic knot.
> 
> I don't think it matters if you make knots as long as they are in the seams or edges... no one will ever know or see them. The inside of my work looks just as nice as the outside because I do my joining where it won't be seen.


I do the same thing! Just don't trust that other methods won't come loose. I usually knot (square knot) at the end of a row and leave a long tail to weave in. I have washed afghans and given things as gifts and never had anything come out. All my knitting looks nice, too.


----------



## Penny5 (Jun 22, 2011)

Sometimes I use the Russion Join also


----------



## lyndaleen (Oct 25, 2012)

Moisten wool, it will felt together and behave as a continuos line of yarn.


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

bboyc said:


> I usually overlap the yard and knit with them together and later weave in the two ends, unless the yarn is too think and then I spit splice if the yarn has plys (sic). Lots of folks in my knitting group use the Russian join but I haven't mastered it yet.
> What is a "magic knot"?
> Barb


Check one of my replies above.


----------



## helenlou (Apr 4, 2012)

I have been knitting for 45 years and the lady who taught me said you never, never knot. So I haven't. I have never had any ends come undone or apart. I just weave them all in. I say whatever works for you.


----------



## knitterbee (Jul 21, 2011)

I have knotted for years. I recently learned the Russian Join (from here) and use that for adding new skeins. It takes less time than weaving in ends and is done right then. I have crossed the 2 yarns and knit with both for a few stitches then wove the ends in also. (That was before learning Russian Join.) I won't knot in socks if it will be on the bottom of the foot. I use size 0 to knit socks because the ridges on the inside of the foot irritates the sole of my foot when I use a bigger size. I worry that knots would be the same. I have started splitting the ends and weaving in different directions for afghans so it doesn't show as much on the back.


----------



## Condia (Jul 24, 2012)

Norma B. said:


> Thanks for your input Joy and buttons. I have used the magic knot in chunky yarn and it simply disappears even if it somehow ends up on the right side.. It doesn't though. Somehow it always ended up on the back of the stitch and seems to stay there. OK, so far it's two to one for knotting.


What exactly is a "magic knot"? I always leave a tail and take my new yarn (leaving a tail on it as well) and knit several stitches together then weave the rest in. never had a problem, but I suppose it depends on what type of item you are knitting whether or not 2 strands for a few stitches would be appropriate.


----------



## robsdolls (Apr 16, 2011)

I try my best to join yarn at the end of a row when ever possible. And even though I have tried different methods, I am most comfortable knotting first.i am afraid that sooner or later the ends will come through. Even when I try not to knot, as I continue knitting I get nervous and go back to knot the yarn. I am interested though what is the "magic knot" . .? I have never heard of it. 
Robin


----------



## Wren (Sep 24, 2012)

I have been knitting for nearly fifty years and would never ever join my yarn with a knot and no mine have never unwoven I knit six stitches with double yarn ---


----------



## Condia (Jul 24, 2012)

Wren said:


> I have been knitting for nearly fifty years and would never ever join my yarn with a knot and no mine have never unwoven I knit six stitches with double yarn ---


This is exactly what I do as well, have had other knitters frown upon it, but it works well for me


----------



## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

When you knot, I hope you are leaving long ends. One time a friend of mine who did not knit or crochet brought me a baby blanket someone had made for her. The person who made the blanket had tied a double tie knot and then cut the yarn ends flush with the knot. Several of the knots had come undone and holes were starting to appear. My friend asked me if there was anything I could do to fix it. The only thing I could think to do is to take a needle and thread and actually sew the yarn ends together. It seemed to work and I did that on all of the knots. I kept thinking why would anyone cut the yarn right at the knot. I knot the yarn and then leave long ends that I weave in separately. I can guarantee none of my knots come undone with long ends woven in.


----------



## Knitnewbie (Mar 8, 2011)

I have been weaving the ends in on the tail at the beginning and at the end of my projects. I have used the Russian Join to join in the middle of my project. Now, I use knots. I make dishcloths for my siblings and they tell me that the dishcloths are great, but one or two have unraveled, so I now tie small knots before I weave the tails in. No more unraveling.


----------



## carrottop71 (Jul 17, 2011)

I recently started using the majic knot and love it, but if you just don't want a knot at all you could also hold the end of the yarn and knit it right into the project. Sometimes it makes that section a little thicker and in those cases I wouldn't use that method. Even so if you weave in the string of yarn and the little bit left over is on the inside of your garment, it would never be seen one the outside.


----------



## PATRICIAKEITH (Jun 13, 2011)

Hello. I've been knitting for about 70 years and had it instilled in me as a child not to knot. The neatest way for me is to always finish the yarn at the end of a row and join with a temporary knot. When the knitting is finished, I take out the temporary knot, give the two yarn ends a twist and use the tails to join up the seams, one up and one down. Fascinating to hear so many views.x


----------



## Knitknutty (Oct 4, 2011)

PATRICIAKEITH said:


> Hello. I've been knitting for about 70 years and had it instilled in me as a child not to knot. The neatest way for me is to always finish the yarn at the end of a row and join with a temporary knot. When the knitting is finished, I take out the temporary knot, give the two yarn ends a twist and use the tails to join up the seams, one up and one down. Fascinating to hear so many views.x


Patricia, your method sounds like the best yet if the knitter is against knotting. I knot at the ends of rows, but will be inclined to try your method on items that will have a joined seam. It 
seams (pun intended) that it would "knot" pull out.


----------



## nonichinski (Nov 2, 2012)

Well, like so many others I was taught by a strict Mama when I was very young NEVER to knot. So, I never do. I admit that if you are working with something slippery like chenille it has a way of working loose. But most of the knitting and crochet yarns we use are not so smooth, there is friction so if you weave them in - that means about an inch or two one way and then backwards for a little bit, the friction of the yarn will prevent any slippage and when washed it all tends to come together anyway.


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

Evie RM said:


> When you knot, I hope you are leaving long ends. One time a friend of mine who did not knit or crochet brought me a baby blanket someone had made for her. The person who made the blanket had tied a double tie knot and then cut the yarn ends flush with the knot. Several of the knots had come undone and holes were starting to appear. My friend asked me if there was anything I could do to fix it. The only thing I could think to do is to take a needle and thread and actually sew the yarn ends together. It seemed to work and I did that on all of the knots. I kept thinking why would anyone cut the yarn right at the knot. I knot the yarn and then leave long ends that I weave in separately. I can guarantee none of my knots come undone with long ends woven in.


I'm too new (or re-new) at knitting so I don't speak from so much experience as others, but the magic knot only works if it's a TRUE double/double knot, and not a granny, which will absolutely for sure slip out. I do wonder though, as I think someone has said, if the yarn used makes a difference. I'm keeping my just knitted sweater which is washable acrylic, so I guess I'll find out for that yarn at least. I also like the idea of leaving tails above and below the knot just in case, but then why use the knot at all (except for that double reassurance that you've backed everything up!)


----------



## DollieD (Mar 7, 2011)

Norma B. said:


> I'd love to get the general thinking on how to secure tails whether from binding on or off, changing yarn in mid knitting, or sewing seams with yarn. I've read in knitting tips that it's adequate to weave the yarn into the stitches, however as a seamstress, I would back stitch with the machine to secure thread ends, or I would knot securely for all hand sewing, so I'm very uncomfortable with relying on weaving in for knitting. I also feel like then there are these little short pieces of yarn that may pop through to the right side and look unsightly, and what's going to happen when these knitted items are washed in the machine (as in machine washable acrylics and some wool combinations)? Are these ends eventually going to work their way out and come unraveled? Even in just pulling a sweater on and off seems like it could at some point pull those wild ends out. What's the thinking on this? Am I being overly concerned? Has anyone ever had something come undone like this?


Hi,
I have always worked two or three stitches in and then woven any extra into the backs of stitches, until I saw the invisible knot done on youtube. It is 2 knots, in two separate places, then you pull them together, to make one very secure knot.
There is also a weaver's knot demonstrated on youtube, which I have used as well.


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

Knitknutty said:


> PATRICIAKEITH said:
> 
> 
> > Hello. I've been knitting for about 70 years and had it instilled in me as a child not to knot. The neatest way for me is to always finish the yarn at the end of a row and join with a temporary knot. When the knitting is finished, I take out the temporary knot, give the two yarn ends a twist and use the tails to join up the seams, one up and one down. Fascinating to hear so many views.x
> ...


 :-D :thumbup:


----------



## TennGrand (Apr 6, 2011)

I still say the Russian join solves all these problems. It won't come out, it's almost always invisible, you can join it anywhere. The only place I can think of that it would not work is if you were changing colors. Then you would have to do another type of join at the end of a row. Try the Russian join. You will love it!


----------



## carrottop71 (Jul 17, 2011)

TennGrand said:


> I still say the Russian join solves all these problems. It won't come out, it's almost always invisible, you can join it anywhere. The only place I can think of that it would not work is if you were changing colors. Then you would have to do another type of join at the end of a row. Try the Russian join. You will love it!


I like this join also, but I think it is harder to do and sometimes you have that thickness. Also it doesn't work on all types of yarn. I have used the majic knot and never had it come undone.


----------



## dvanausdall (Oct 7, 2011)

What is the "magic knot?"


----------



## TennGrand (Apr 6, 2011)

Okay, I need to look up magic knot. Maybe it will become my next favorite join!


----------



## Knitnewbie (Mar 8, 2011)

dvanausdall said:


> What is the "magic knot?"






Here is a link to the youtube video on the magic knot. If this doesn't work, just google "Magic Knot in Knitting" and it will come up. Good luck. It does work.


----------



## Knitnewbie (Mar 8, 2011)

spinlouet said:


> Norma B. said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for your input Joy and buttons. I have used the magic knot in chunky yarn and it simply disappears even if it somehow ends up on the right side.. It doesn't though. Somehow it always ended up on the back of the stitch and seems to stay there. OK, so far it's two to one for knotting.
> ...






 try this link to the YouTube video.


----------



## robsdolls (Apr 16, 2011)

I just read your post and yes I do weave in the ends after I make a knot. I usually weave them into the seam. Sometimes I actually use the ends to sew up seams.


----------



## lyndaleen (Oct 25, 2012)

I am going to begin using the magic double knot unless I'm changing colors, then it's back to weaving.


----------



## robsdolls (Apr 16, 2011)

Wow! I just watched the video of the magic knot. I am really going to have to try it .it looks almost flawless. Thanks for posting it.


----------



## PatriciaDF (Jan 29, 2011)

I do as AmyKnits does. I try to put the knots in a seam or in a place that will not be noticed - such as under an arm or on the edge. I have never had a joined yarn come loose in the wash. I have, on occasion, used matching sewing thread on the inside of a garment to sew down a stray end - and that has only happened to me on very bulky yarns.


----------



## megan.mcgunnigal (Jun 1, 2012)

what is the magic knot please? megan


----------



## Buttons (Feb 11, 2011)

Here is a picture of how it is done. You can also google it or go to utube


----------



## lizmaxwell (Jul 23, 2011)

The solution for you iis to always have yarn joins in the seam then u can back stitch your ends in.


----------



## Xiang (Sep 3, 2011)

I never use a knot in my projects, unless I am using synthetic fibres - which I don't use very often. I either splice of knit the ends in. I also do not leave any ends to weave in at the completion of a project & have never had an item unravel


----------



## Anitabee (Feb 15, 2012)

I usually knot and weave in 2 directions.


----------



## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Norma B. said:


> GroodleMom said:
> 
> 
> > Is Nimbus the Berroco pattern?
> ...


Is this the pattern: http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/nimbus-2 ?

Or maybe this one: http://www.canadianliving.com/crafts/knitting/knit_a_chunky_cabled_cardigan.php ?


----------



## 13 thumbs (Oct 9, 2011)

I've followed craft projects at state and county fairs for years and the one thing that will shoot down blue ribbon is a knot. The judges go over every article closely, even pinching and squeezing to see if they can feel a hidden knot. If you're not going to enter it in a fair I'd say do whatever makes you comfortable.


----------



## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

13 thumbs said:


> I've followed craft projects at state and county fairs for years and the one thing that will shoot down blue ribbon is a knot. The judges go over every article closely, even pinching and squeezing to see if they can feel a hidden knot. If you're not going to enter it in a fair I'd say do whatever makes you comfortable.


Ah! That's very good to know, though I neither knot nor enter competitions; it just validates my no-knots philosophy.

Maybe I need to rethink my habit of knitting right over the tiny knots I sometimes find in one ply of a multi-ply yarn.


----------



## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Knots are a real "no no" in my mind. They are unsightly..even when done at the seam edge and they are uncomfortable in garments.

Quite frankly who wants a knot in the middle of their back, their armpit or the tender side part of their body...not I! I won't even get into knots in hats.

I've never had a Russian Join come undone..not ever. A "properly" executed Russian Join won't come undone..though one done "hurriedly" will. 

"Spit" splices fail, unless one is using a spit splice for a felted item..knots show and they "hurt".

Learn how to splice you will not regret it.

Last year I made my God Mother a cabled Celtic cape......using a great many hanks of yarn. I used the Russian splice at every single join. My God Mother is also a knitter. She called me on Christmas morning, in tears..so thrilled with her gift..but she also commented.."there isn't a knot in this whole thing nor a woven in end, how did you do that?". Best compliment I ever got!

This particular cape...when you got close to the bottom edge, involved HUNDREDS of stitches and no "seam edge" to join at.


----------



## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

I too have to knot. I just can't seem to trust the weaving by itself.


----------



## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

I like the double reassurance that my work will not come undone.


----------



## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

A properly executed splice will NOT come undone! If you look at the way the various methods of splices are done you'll will see that the yarn is worked in the opposite direction.

Splicing methods were actually perfected by sailors...using rope..and "fids"..rather than yarn and needles. 

Sailors lives were on the line when it came to splices. They perfected the methods that we now use today. 

I seriously doubt that a well executed splice will result in a "garment failure", since the methods of splicing were perfected by people whose very lives depended on a reliable splice.

Splicing of rope was also used during t he "Great Serum Run" where teams of sled dogs transported live saving serum. The same method of splicing was used to splice lines of rope to form what is called "gang lines" to attach sled dogs.

I doubt that any of us will ever knit a garment that requires such "sturdy" splices!


----------



## IngridCarlsson (Sep 26, 2011)

This is the best method I have ever used. Hope it solves your fear of "not knotting"!!

http://www.knittinghelp.com/video/play/russian-join


----------



## woodart (Jul 1, 2011)

I was most fortunate in that my father was a Seamanship Instructor in the Australian Navy back in the late 1930s/40s and when I joined the Girl Guides(Scouts to most of you!) in NZ he was there to teach me all I needed to pass the tests.
Splicing was his forte and once you've accomplished the technique in rope its dead-easy in yarn! I wouldn't use any other means of joining one end of yarn to another with any other method.
It really IS the only way to join to lengths together in a 'seamless/bumpless' method.
Cheers
Ainslie.


----------



## woodart (Jul 1, 2011)

I'd also suggest that you can work out how to splice a lot easier if you length of rope approx 4 feet long and splice the two ends together to form a circle.
Any book on macrame/knotting - or Girl Scout book should have a section on splicing. In fact I'm sure you'd get heaps of sites online if you type in 'how to splice rope' 
Cheers
Ainslie.


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

woodart said:


> I was most fortunate in that my father was a Seamanship Instructor in the Australian Navy back in the late 1930s/40s and when I joined the Girl Guides(Scouts to most of you!) in NZ he was there to teach me all I needed to pass the tests.
> Splicing was his forte and once you've accomplished the technique in rope its dead-easy in yarn! I wouldn't use any other means of joining one end of yarn to another with any other method.
> It really IS the only way to join to lengths together in a 'seamless/bumpless' method.
> Cheers
> Ainslie.


Both Ainslie and Courier---that's a fascinating history of splicing! When I first moved to San Diego in 1963 the tuna industry was still huge there. You could walk along Harbor Drive where the tuna boats tied up and there were always mountains of tuna seins on the docks, with seamen sitting repairing them. I bet they were using those splices. You didn't want to have a net come apart when you had thousands of dollars worth of tuna to bring aboard. I will pay close attention to the suggested splicing methods. With practice I'm sure I'll be able to master them too.

Thanks to everyone who has taken so much time to answer my question. I may not be sure yet which I'll do, but I certainly know which I'll do BETTER.


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Is this the pattern: http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/nimbus-2 ?
> 
> Or maybe this one: http://www.canadianliving.com/crafts/knitting/knit_a_chunky_cabled_cardigan.php ?


It's neither, but it is from Candadian Living ---not a cardigan and not cabled. It's called the Chunky Funnel Neck Sweater. I don't have the URL for it since I copied it into my Word file and used it from there. Look on knittingpatterncentral.com under the Free Pattern Directory. Go to Womens Clothing, and Womens Sweaters.


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

Here's a picture of my sweater. Lessons learned: 1. Don't use variegated yarn when the sweater style needs to be the star of the show. 2. Pay attention when something doesn't seem right BEFORE you finish and bind off. (The neck needed to be longer and wider than the pattern specified in order to fold over multiple times as in the pattern photo, and the body should have been longer even though I added two rows.) 3. The yarn needed to be softer and more drapey than what I used, though I'm OK with it as a turtle neck. Disappointed as a cowl. 4. Double check the size chart and don't go by usual garment sizes. 

I did recognize the sleeve measurement on the pattern was definitely wrong---I made them 19" at the underarm instead of the 13" and they're just right. It fits me, but not the intended giftee. Next time it's going to be better. I also reversed the cowl from the pattern directions that would have had the wrong side of the cowl showing when you rolled it down.


----------



## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Norma B. said:


> Jessica-Jean said:
> 
> 
> > Is this the pattern: http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/nimbus-2 ?
> ...


Aha! _This_ one! http://www.canadianliving.com/crafts/knitting/knit_a_chunky_funnel_neck_sweater.php


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

Yup. Doesn't look much like mine does it?


----------



## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Norma B. said:


> Yup. Doesn't look much like mine does it?


No, but then yours isn't snug around a shapely body either. :twisted:

You have knit a complete sweater. Rejoice! Not everyone finishes sweaters. _My_ last one is still awaiting assembly ... for at least five years.

You have learned that variegated yarn has its place, and it's _not_ in that pattern. Rejoice! Not everyone learns that lesson on the first go-round. My mother, despite having several college degrees under her belt, never did learn that lacy pattern stitches don't work well in wildly variegated yarns.

Regardless of how it _looks_, it will keep a body warm ... just not the originally intended person. Rejoice! At least, you won't need to rip it out. No one but you need know that it was supposed to look otherwise!

Now that you know all of the pattern's tricks and turns, you'll be able to knit an improved version for that loved person! AND it'll proceed more swiftly than the error-riddled first version! :-D


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Now that you know all of the pattern's tricks and turns, you'll be able to knit an improved version for that loved person! AND it'll proceed more swiftly than the error-riddled first version! :-D


I think so. But I may have a different idea about the collar thingee. I'm thinking I may change it to an attached scarf, attached just at the back half of the neck, to let hang down straight in front or to wrap around the neck and hang down the back. I could adapt the same holey pattern from the cowl maybe, or use something plainer with fringe on the ends. Yes, that's better! I've had this idea kicking around my pointy head for some time, and this may be just the place to use it. I may also eliminate the holes in the body. I'm not sure they makes much sense to me now. They're novel, but maybe not so great. Then I would not have to explain to friend why she has the same sweater I do. :idea:


----------



## valj46 (Jul 25, 2011)

That brought back memories when i learn't the knots in Brownies many years ago reef knot right over left left over right [never came out] ,grannies knot the opposite


Norma B. said:


> Evie RM said:
> 
> 
> > When you knot, I hope you are leaving long ends. One time a friend of mine who did not knit or crochet brought me a baby blanket someone had made for her. The person who made the blanket had tied a double tie knot and then cut the yarn ends flush with the knot. Several of the knots had come undone and holes were starting to appear. My friend asked me if there was anything I could do to fix it. The only thing I could think to do is to take a needle and thread and actually sew the yarn ends together. It seemed to work and I did that on all of the knots. I kept thinking why would anyone cut the yarn right at the knot. I knot the yarn and then leave long ends that I weave in separately. I can guarantee none of my knots come undone with long ends woven in.
> ...


----------



## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

valj46 said:


> That brought back memories when i learn't the knots in Brownies many years ago reef knot right over left left over right [never came out] ,grannies knot the opposite


Oh yes. You're absolutely right. I learned the various knots in the Girl Scouts (and later in life in sailing lessons) and I'd forgotten the reef knot is the same as a square knot, which we learned to tie very well, because that's how we tied our neckerchiefs on our uniforms. If you didn't do the right over left/left over right thing it looked wrong. And that's why the magic knot works, and why you can cut the tails off so close to the double knot, because it does constitute a true square knot.


----------



## Helga82 (Apr 13, 2011)

My needleworks teacher taught us you knot the threads in
crocheting - but you NEVER knot in knitting. Followed it
to this day - 70++ years. - Helga82


----------



## PauletteB. (Feb 7, 2012)

I tie a knot at the end of a piece, but I use the russian join to add another ball of yarn.


----------



## jobailey (Dec 22, 2011)

I avoid knots like the plague! I do use the Magic knot when all else fails! I use the Russian join or spit joiner I use the braid. Have never had a problem. Or I knit in the ends when adding new yarn.


----------



## tired n' cranky (Aug 2, 2011)

Ah, Norma, Jessica-Jean does actually know everything. She is trying to teach you that you actually do know the answer to your question. I always look for a yarn the same weight when substituting. I can't bring myself to spend that much on yarn either, not even if I am knitting for myself,(yeah, like that happens).

As far as knots are concerned, I rarely knot and when I do it's a magic knot an ALWAYS at the end of a row. Until recently, I used the Russian join almost exclusively. But I was exposed to the braided join by a woman at my LYS, and use that now. It doesn't get "thick" like a Russian join can, and it blends in with your knitting really well. I still do it at the end of a row, never in the middle. I was always told that you never join a new skein in the middle of a row. A knitting snob I am not, do what works for you. If somebody criticizes, never share your knitting with them again. Go forth and knit!


----------



## SandyC (Jun 27, 2011)

I would like to know what the magic knot is. have never heard of this


----------



## donmaur (Mar 4, 2012)

when I have to join wool I simply knit the end of the old ball with the beginning of the new ball together for a couple of stitches and at he end simply cut the dangling ends doesn't show or loosen. when i am changing colous however i do knot them together some people use the russian knot for this -a reef knot does nicelly


----------



## Wren (Sep 24, 2012)

What on earth is a Russian knot Perplexed


----------



## coolbreeze (Nov 29, 2011)

I was taught many many years ago "If you want your work to look professional done you never knot. only weave in and out. However it depends on what it is that I'm making. If you well be able to see the back side then I weave in and out. If the project is something where you can't see back and lets say a child's toy then I will knot 1 time and then weave in to make sure it is secure. Hope this helps. I like others when you spend a lot of time doing something you don't want it to come apart.


----------



## coolbreeze (Nov 29, 2011)

I also would like to know what a "Magic knot" is and also what a "Russian Knot Perplexed " is myself. Thanks.


----------



## gin-red (Sep 17, 2011)

I, too, was taught not to knot and I rarely do. I picked up a tip somewhere along the line that has worked for me when knitting flat. If you can lay the yarn across your work three times,you have enough yarn to complete another row. I always join at the beginning of a row or round and then weave in ends.


----------



## jobailey (Dec 22, 2011)

coolbreeze said:


> I also would like to know what a "Magic knot" is and also what a "Russian Knot Perplexed " is myself. Thanks.


This show the Magic Knot.

http://stitchbystitchhandmade.blogspot.com/2012/05/magic-knot.html


----------



## jobailey (Dec 22, 2011)

jobailey said:


> coolbreeze said:
> 
> 
> > I also would like to know what a "Magic knot" is and also what a "Russian Knot Perplexed " is myself. Thanks.
> ...


And here is the Russian join


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Norma B. said:
> 
> 
> > Jessica-Jean said:
> ...


Thank you, ladies, for the "Aha!" pattern. It's just what I've been wanting.....


----------



## coolbreeze (Nov 29, 2011)

Thank you very much.


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

SandyC said:


> I would like to know what the magic knot is. have never heard of this


If you would go back and read this entire thread, you will find a diagram of how to make a magic knot; the diagram is entitled, "Magic Loop," which, in this case only, is the same as a magic knot (usually magic loop refers to a style of knitting with a very long circular needle). I have printed it out both times it has been posted on the KP forum so I have two copies of it, since I have projects in different areas of the house. I may copy my copies so I can keep it handy wherever. I will keep referring to it until it is engraved upon my memory :~D. I find the videos often go faster than my eye-brain connection, I like something like this to refer to so I don't waste time viewing videos multitudinous times.


----------



## coolbreeze (Nov 29, 2011)

Thank you


----------



## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

To make the Russian Join/Splice less noticeable, go down one needle size for the section that covers the splice/join. This is where a DPN comes in handy. On the return row or next round (if knitting in the round) go back to your regular sized needle as your "working needle" for that section.


----------



## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

Thank you for the link to the instruction for the magic knot. I have never heard of it before and I have been knitting for over 60 years. I will have to try it on my next project. It is wonderful getting all this fantastic information from all of you.


----------



## SandyC (Jun 27, 2011)

Evie RM said:


> Thank you for the link to the instruction for the magic knot. I have never heard of it before and I have been knitting for over 60 years. I will have to try it on my next project. It is wonderful getting all this fantastic information from all of you.


I agree, have been knitting many years but learn something new from these ladies almost on a daily basis. I I guess that means you are never to old to learn!


----------



## hedwig (Jul 25, 2012)

the magic knot is fantastic I can recomend it to everyone took me a little while to grasp it but know I am well away with it and have shown it to my friends who are also impressed. hedwig


----------



## 13 thumbs (Oct 9, 2011)

I don't enter competitions either but I love to see what other people are doing. Some of the really young people are doing wonderful things these days. Lovely to know that the needle arts aren't dying out.


----------



## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Perhaps I am an old "die hard" but magic knot doesn't thrill me that much. The tried an trued Russian splice/join has worked for a great many years..talk to some old sailors.

A properly executed "splice" is just as reliable as any "knot" and much more comfortable for the wearer of the garment.

I am amused that so many still insist at joining at end/beginning of a row..pretty archaic, not to mention wasteful.

I suppose that might be "thrifty" when a row might be 90 or 100 stitches..when you work in multiple of hundreds of stitches it is neither economical or thrifty.

Splicing has been around for hundreds of years of nautical exploration/travel.

Knots are unsightly, not to mention..darn uncomfortable. Ive seen knots that the knitter thought couldn't be seen in the shoulder blade area and breast area..trust me they show. I'Ve heard complaints regarding knots along seam edges that fall along the side of the side of the body...oh trust me a seam knot in the area of the elbow is not only annoying but painful!

If you purchase a sweater, from the most inexpensive source, you will NOT encounter a painful knot. If we can purchase "inferior" goods from third world countries, without unsightly or painful knots we certainly should be able to produce quality knitted garments, equally free of "poorly" joined yarn.


----------



## jobailey (Dec 22, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Perhaps I am an old "die hard" but magic knot doesn't thrill me that much. The tried an trued Russian splice/join has worked for a great many years..talk to some old sailors.
> 
> A properly executed "splice" is just as reliable as any "knot" and much more comfortable for the wearer of the garment.
> 
> ...


Well said! I love your attitude!!!


----------



## tired n' cranky (Aug 2, 2011)

courier770 said:


> To make the Russian Join/Splice less noticeable, go down one needle size for the section that covers the splice/join. This is where a DPN comes in handy. On the return row or next round (if knitting in the round) go back to your regular sized needle as your "working needle" for that section.


Sheesh, Courier, I never thought of this, I'll give it a try!


----------



## valj46 (Jul 25, 2011)

i have had knots in shop bought jumpers usually the thick sweaters


jobailey said:


> courier770 said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps I am an old "die hard" but magic knot doesn't thrill me that much. The tried an trued Russian splice/join has worked for a great many years..talk to some old sailors.
> ...


----------



## sherrywb (Feb 13, 2012)

If I am machine knitting I always knot but hand knitting I always weave the ends in I have never really thought about it coming undone as it's what I have always done..Ummmm


Norma B. said:


> I'd love to get the general thinking on how to secure tails whether from binding on or off, changing yarn in mid knitting, or sewing seams with yarn. I've read in knitting tips that it's adequate to weave the yarn into the stitches, however as a seamstress, I would back stitch with the machine to secure thread ends, or I would knot securely for all hand sewing, so I'm very uncomfortable with relying on weaving in for knitting. I also feel like then there are these little short pieces of yarn that may pop through to the right side and look unsightly, and what's going to happen when these knitted items are washed in the machine (as in machine washable acrylics and some wool combinations)? Are these ends eventually going to work their way out and come unraveled? Even in just pulling a sweater on and off seems like it could at some point pull those wild ends out. What's the thinking on this? Am I being overly concerned? Has anyone ever had something come undone like this?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :roll: :roll:


----------



## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

All through High School and as a young adult I made most of my own clothes, then made clothes for my children and western shirts for my husband. I preferred to use french seams in garments because they just looked so much "neater". 

Go into the most expensive clothing stores and look at the insides of the garments. That's where you will see the attention to detail, that commands higher pricing. This is true of both woven and knitted garments.

I want my knitted items to look like they come from the very best boutiques. I do not want them to look like I've put anything less than my best effort into them.

Someone much wiser that I once said, "you only get one chance to make a first impression".


----------



## hedwig (Jul 25, 2012)

what ever, I am going to give this knot a try on my next garment, nothing ventured nothing gained love hedwig


----------



## Gloria Hall (Apr 6, 2011)

Read Woodarts comment so I don't have to rewrite. Weaving {splice} is the way to the best finish. When you knit the 3or 4 sts woven tog they will not come out. I have been knitting for 70 yrs and never had a problem. When we had a Yarn Shop that's the only way that we let our customers join or end. Never knot!!!


----------



## Gloria Hall (Apr 6, 2011)

Just read Courier770 comments and I agree 100%-- Sailors have a proven method for centuries---Thanks for your realistic view!!


----------



## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

The tension put on ropes used in sailing is massive, certainly much more than a splice in any knitted garment. While the "magic knot" method is secure, I much prefer the tried and true splice and there really is no need to get into the braided splice.


----------



## kdb (Aug 29, 2012)

I also knot every thing that I knit, I just recently knitted a scarf for a customer and I had to tie a very mall knot at the end, it did not show, an the right side I steamed it where it would tie in with the rest of the scarf.


----------



## wlk4fun647 (Apr 17, 2011)

Hate to jump in on the end of the conversation, but being a new knitter, my knitting teacher told me "NEVER ever knot in the middle of a row because it will ALWAYS pop thru eventually, and will make your item look cheap"... just as in sewing, join your new yarns or threads, at the start or end of a row, and weave in the ends, and they won't come out. I agree that if you look at fine knits or expensive clothes, you can tell at the seams, how well an item is made. How an item is finished, takes it from nice to beautiful!


----------



## gnelson (Oct 16, 2012)

What is the magic knot?


----------



## 13 thumbs (Oct 9, 2011)

Absolutely! I made my own wedding gown too. Made my dh's and kids' jeans and what not. I put my best effort into whatever I do because I don't want it to look inferior. It's the details that count.


----------



## jobailey (Dec 22, 2011)

gnelson said:


> What is the magic knot?


Go back in this thread and I have a link that shows the magic knot. On my computer it is on page 13, one back from this one. It is a good way to join if all else fails.


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

gnelson said:


> What is the magic knot?


On page 10 of this thread is a diagram of how to do the magic knot. It is mislabeled magic loop. You can also find it on YouTube.


----------



## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Joining at t he edge is not necessary. Last year I made my God Mother a cabled Celtic cape, the final rows were over 500 stitches and getting just 8 or 9 rows to a 220 yd. hank. I would have wasted more yarn than I used by only joining at the edge. 

A secure splice can be done mid row without showing.


----------



## pzoe (Mar 17, 2011)

Thanks to all for the great ideas and feedback. 
Pzod


----------



## flyssie (Jun 30, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Joining at t he edge is not necessary. Last year I made my God Mother a cabled Celtic cape, the final rows were over 500 stitches and getting just 8 or 9 rows to a 220 yd. hank. I would have wasted more yarn than I used by only joining at the edge.
> 
> A secure splice can be done mid row without showing.


Could you please explain exactly how you do your secure splice - there seem to be different ones mentioned. I like your confidence and experience in using this method.
Thank you - Flyssie


----------



## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I use the Russian Splice/Join, have been using it for nearly 50 years and have never had one come undone. To make the splice less noticeable, go down one to two needle sizes to knit the spliced section - a dpn comes in handy for this. On the return row resume using the original needle for this section. Interchangeable needles work well for this. Screw on a smaller tip for the spliced section, then go back to the tip you were using. If I'm working with worsted weight yarn I will go down 2 needle sizes to work through the splice but most of the time 1 needle size is sufficient.

The keys to a good solid splice is to use the right size tapestry needle and getting it "dead center" of the plies. If your tapestry needle is too sharp it can snag the plies...so I usually "dull" mine slightly on an emery board or a piece of sandpaper. I find that metal tapestry needles actually work better than the plastic ones. Don't use those tapestry needles with the bent tips that are meant for seaming - unless you enjoy getting frustrated! Years ago I purchased a good set of tapestry needles, it has to be at least 25 years ago, I still use them.

To make threading the needles easier..go purchase a small package of what is called "floss threaders"..these are items used by people with dental bridges to thread dental floss under their bridge to clean under there. They are indestructible, unlike needle threaders. I keep one or two in my knitting "tools", a couple in the accessories to my sewing machine and there's always one looped on a pin in my pincushion.


----------



## flyssie (Jun 30, 2011)

Thank you so much courier 770
Flyssie


----------



## sdostman (Jun 9, 2011)

I am sooo parinoid about something coming undone I always knot everything. I leave a long enough end to weave in and if it should pop thru it is long enough to weave back again.


----------



## sdostman (Jun 9, 2011)

I am sooo parinoid about something coming undone I always knot everything. I leave a long enough end to weave in and if it should pop thru it is long enough to weave back again.


----------



## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

Me, too. I always knot at the edge and make the knot really tight. When tight, the knots do not show and I weave each long end of yarn in different directions. My knots never, never come undone and neither does my work. Gives me a sense of confidence when I do it this way and have for over 50 years. So, keep doing what you are doing.


----------



## mavisb (Apr 18, 2011)

I never have a knot in my knitting. I attach the new ball of yarn by knitting two stitches with the new yarn and then weave in the ends. I saw a beanie handknitted by a lady and as it was in multiple colours, there were knots everywhere and no ends woven in. This sold fro Aus $55.00 I would never have paid that amount for it as it looked awful.


----------



## Anitabee (Feb 15, 2012)

Sounds awful too.


----------



## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

Why would anyone pay that much? I always change yarn at the end or beginning of a row. That way the knot is on the seam and doesn't show. I always weave in the yarn ends and i weave them in opposite directions of each other.


----------



## mavisb (Apr 18, 2011)

I suppose being in Katoomba and it is very cold as it is in the Blue Mountains they pay anything to keep warm. I was told at least they know it is handmade, but all those knots, never.


----------

