# Once a fool



## sschimel (Mar 22, 2013)

Okay, so perhaps I was distracted by the Supreme Court's landmark decision allowing me to marry whom I please but I should know never to start a new sweater late at night. The pattern is the Mount Robson Pullover in the Summer 2015 issue of Interweave Knits and it's knit in fingering weight yarn. The back says to cast on 221 stitches. The stitches are so tiny that to make it easier to count, I placed a marker every 20 stitches. I couldn't understand why it looked so wide until I realized that I counted every group of 20 as a group of 10. So I'd actually cast on 421 stitches. Ooops. But still, the Supreme Court ROCKS!!!!!!!


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## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

Hmm.. any chance of knitting it in the round? lol
And yes, the Supreme Court made a great decision today!


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## patringo (Feb 11, 2014)

yep, late night and exciting news can lead to silly rabbit mistakes. maybe, you really wanted to make two sweaters at a time!
and, about time our country got up to date.


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## TravelKnit (Feb 23, 2013)

Late nights, after wine, or while talking are all recipes for disaster for me! Know anyone who wears a XXXL? &#128521;


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## knitpick1 (Dec 13, 2014)

DORK!


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

sschimel, I must thank you for making me feel better about my basic arithmetic flubs. I'm not alone!

Knitting anything that's not totally brainless when tired, excited, imbibing, surrounded by chatterboxes, or otherwise distracted from the needles and yarn is just fine ... as long as you're willing to spend an equal (or greater!) amount of time ripping back and re-doing correctly. I've done that so often! Today, for once, I'm refraining from the complicated knitting and just working on a brainless project.


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## ADW55 (Mar 31, 2014)

Lesson learned, never watch anything interesting and cast on
at the same time. Only watch dull boring shows or listen
to music. Great looking sweater. Picture when you finish??


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

We can all probably tell a similar story. As many times as I've said I've learned my lesson about casting on when I am distracted--well it seems I'm always too anxious to get started. I have to say I was totally amazed that our supremely conservative Supreme Court was able to drag themselves into this millennium.


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

kathycam said:


> ... I have to say I was totally amazed that our supremely conservative Supreme Court was able to drag themselves into this millennium.


Only just _barely_. It sure would have been nice had it been a unanimous decision. Let's just see if anyone tries to appeal it.


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## farmkiti (Oct 13, 2011)

I'm currently working on a garter stitch kitchen towel. The only thing I have to keep track of is the number of rows going into each stripe (only two different colors).

And yes, thank you, we have finally been dragged, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century. I just wish it had been done sooner. But better late than never!


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## marilyngf (Nov 5, 2011)

Great decision. Take a good look at your pattern and knit it in the round to armhole shaping. Problem solved


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## mirl56 (Dec 20, 2011)

I hope you didn't get too far before you realized! 

Yes indeed - sometimes you just have to LOVE the Supreme Court!


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## nankat (Oct 17, 2012)

I think the Supreme Court is beyond appeal from the states. I think what they say is law....interpretation of law based upon the constitution.

I never knit past 10 pm.


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## nanadee (Sep 16, 2011)

Dear sschimel,

Made mistakes with counting many times. Hope you didn't knit too much before you found yours-comes with the territory. Love the sweater.
Couldn't be more pleased and surprised about the Supreme Court the last two days. Love has no gender or color. We are all here together.

Love to all,

Diane


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## mama879 (Jan 27, 2011)

Well we all make mistakes. How about a nice wrap. LOL . Or make it in the round like others have said. Yes the decision is a good one.


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## MaggiMoonwytch (Jul 31, 2014)

Congrats on a decision that has clearly made you very happy.  Should we all be saving up for hats? lol My son, who is ocassionally very wise says, "Our grandchildren will look back in embarrassment for us, that there were so many people who could have even questioned that this was right and fair let alone opposed it". He's not wrong.

Knitting mistakes, OMG, I know when it's time to stop in the evening by the number of mistakes I make.:-(


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## Sine (Jun 12, 2011)

Great sweater pattern! Honest mistake! Fabulous SCOTUS decision.


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## YarnStalker (May 30, 2011)

I'd still say you did good there. I lose my concentration before 20 stitches if there are distractions. My last sock was 4 stitches short and I didn't figure it out until I was at the heel shaping. 

My husband and I are on opposite sides when it comes to the SCOTUS decision. My thoughts are that if you are alive and want to do something in your life then go for it. Making it legal is that much better.


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## Dcsmith77 (Apr 18, 2011)

Remember, we thought the abortion issue had been put to rest years ago, but keeps coming back like a bad penny. Some people just cannot get it. We can never rest for long before some nuts decide to mess up something. 

Amazing, Obama has had a GOOD week, perhaps the first really good one in a very long time. Now if they would just take down that flag. I looked up the Confederate flags and the official one is pretty bland, and they could fly it instead if they must without particularly upsetting anyone. 

You got a lot of practice casting on. I guess I don't need to add more of the same advice!


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## disgo (Mar 2, 2013)

nankat said:


> I think the Supreme Court is beyond appeal from the states. I think what they say is law....interpretation of law based upon the constitution.
> 
> I never knit past 10 pm.


It may seem that way but they do not make laws, they only interrupt them in cases. They do have the final word in terms of all the lower courts, but nothing is chiseled in stone in a democracy.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/10-overturned-supreme-court-cases.htm

And the opposition will be trying the first method stated in the link. It will be a difficult time for them since they lost all the non-decides and have very little percentage of the general population (like they did a few years ago) that agree with them.

I am hoping it is more of a swing of the pendulum now more than for any particular group. There are still a lot that have not gotten justice to have any block parties yet.


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## disgo (Mar 2, 2013)

sschimel said:


> Okay, so perhaps I was distracted by the Supreme Court's landmark decision allowing me to marry whom I please but I should know never to start a new sweater late at night. The pattern is the Mount Robson Pullover in the Summer 2015 issue of Interweave Knits and it's knit in fingering weight yarn. The back says to cast on 221 stitches. The stitches are so tiny that to make it easier to count, I placed a marker every 20 stitches. I couldn't understand why it looked so wide until I realized that I counted every group of 20 as a group of 10. So I'd actually cast on 421 stitches. Ooops. But still, the Supreme Court ROCKS!!!!!!!


Blame it on the court :-o :shock: :lol:

In full disclosure now can you not say you were not oogling the model and thinking how nice a combined sweater for two for the ceremony would be. Please give us all ideas instead of what would be an appropriate wedding gift so we will know which retailers/sellers to go to and not get turned away. You know that was NOT resolved and then toss in religion--Oh My!!!! Have you increased your stock in the greeting card market????


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## sschimel (Mar 22, 2013)

Well, the model is cute. But no prospects for a husband at this point. I am accepting job applications, though.


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## disgo (Mar 2, 2013)

:XD: :XD: :XD: 
What ever happened to love. Is that not what one of the decisions was trying to say in essence?

I need to broaden my realm since I have a great track record for "opposites" and that can be used now legally with anyone since "two opposites attract like magnets" now holds true for everyone--Thank Goodness since I knew far to many sad stories from the medical standpoint in my profession and then later with employees what that can become. Last was just three years ago with her partner loosing everything they had owned and starting over from scratch at a much older age, health issues, forced retirement etc. makes one only wonder how the opposing "righteous" can sleep at night---lack of grey matter my mother used to say.


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## oneofthegriffins (Aug 28, 2012)

Even this counting hint may not have helped in light of such a historic event, but I have been so grateful for this method which I read in a post by Olga-Marie on KP. I used to lose count all the time and this is so much better for me. Here's the link in case you want to give it a try...
http://florriemarie.com/2014/09/05/quick-easy-counting/


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## mombr4 (Apr 21, 2011)

mirl56 said:


> I hope you didn't get too far before you realized!
> 
> Yes indeed - sometimes you just have to LOVE the Supreme Court!


totally agree, it's about time.


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

disgo said:


> ,,, makes one only wonder how the opposing "righteous" can sleep at night---lack of grey matter my mother used to say.


I LOVE your mother's thinking!!! :thumbup:


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## martyr (Feb 15, 2011)

I have been pleasantly surprised by the Supreme court's recent decisions of late. It's about time that common sense prevailed. It was long over due. As far as your knitting errors - well it happens to all of us, and some of us a lot more now. But as I've come to appreciate the process more than the product, I have come to realize it's all process - frogging, tinking back is just as much knitting, crocheting as casting on etc. I enjoy my knitting more now I think. But as others have noted I've learned to choose easy projects at certain times and save the more precise ones for mornings when I'm sharper. :XD: :wink: :roll:


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## gdiane (Sep 17, 2014)

Did you start knitting it before you realized what you did..


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## sschimel (Mar 22, 2013)

I only got 3 rows done.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

marilyngf said:


> Great decision. Take a good look at your pattern and knit it in the round to armhole shaping. Problem solved


I was thinking the same thing, but by now, he has probably resolved his over ambitious cast on, one way or another.


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## Corndolly (Mar 1, 2014)

Have just bought myself a daylight bulb for my lamp where I knit and crochet, must have been stupid to have waited all this time. My dark blue project, which was proving almost impossible - at last I can see the stitches! Yes and good news on Equality.


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## cydneyjo (Aug 5, 2011)

The Court surprised me, in a good way. And I count by fives both when casting on and mid-project counts. Also, have learned to put my knitting down when my eyes get heavy. Have woken in my chair to find lots of dropped stitches.


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## Jean Keith (Feb 17, 2011)

I was surprised that the Court finally recognized and voted for equality in marriage. Very happy for those folks that have waited so long for this decision. Congratulations.

Knitting with fingering would have stopped me pronto.


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## grandmatimestwo (Mar 30, 2011)

I have spent many a morning ripping out mistakes I made knitting late at night!


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## motormom (Nov 16, 2013)

We are so happy over SCOTUS' decision. Am waiting to find out if my cousin and his significant other will tie the knot. Matching scarves and hats as a wedding gift, do you think?


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## LAMARQUE8 (Oct 12, 2014)

You were just practicing, LOL. Now you know what works and what doesn't. ROCK ON!!!


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## mperrone (Mar 14, 2013)

nanadee said:


> Dear sschimel,
> 
> Made mistakes with counting many times. Hope you didn't knit too much before you found yours-comes with the territory. Love the sweater.
> Couldn't be more pleased and surprised about the Supreme Court the last two days. Love has no gender or color. We are all here together.
> ...


Diane - you've said it beautifully -- love has no gender or color.


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## knitteerli (Jun 3, 2015)

If you haven't worked too much already, start again. If yu have done several inches, then use the full width as your back and front, just dividing when you get to the neck and arms, then you could work the back and front separately, according to the pattern . It'll be heavy to work with, but if you sit down for most of your knitting, then the weight won't be a problem.

Measure twice, cut once, the carpenters and sewers intone. Same goes for knitters, count twice, work once. Won't be the last mistake you make in your knitting, but as in life beyond knitting, we learn as much from our mistakes than fromour successes.

Good luck with your project, We hope to see it completed.


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## mdhh (Jul 3, 2014)

With my dislike of casting on, I would have turned it into a blanket.

I too was thrilled with the decision to allow everyone the same ability to marry whom they choose. About time. No one should be able to tell anyone else who they can love and marry once the parties are of age. Just wish the decision had been unanimous.


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## valmac (Nov 22, 2012)

Yes, great decision! Love's grand wherever you find it &#128149;&#128149;&#128149;


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## simplyelizabeth (Sep 15, 2012)

Let freedom reign!


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## leinbaug (Apr 5, 2013)

Yes, it does. Frame the sweater and hang it on the wall as a reminder of the good news!


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## cagneylauren (Aug 13, 2014)

As a Christian and a follower of Jesus, I recognize that we, as a nation, are drifting further and further away from God. Without God, we are rudderless, we have lost our steering, our compass. If you read the Bible, Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination". Read Romans 1:26-27; Coriathians 6:19 and even in the first chapter of of the book....God created woman from the rib of man, as man's companion. I can not remain silent.


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## ivanhoe (Oct 21, 2013)

amen to you cagneylauren


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## PatchesPatches (Sep 12, 2011)

Isn't god supposed to love everybody equally? I'm happy the Supreme Court finally 'saw the light,' too, sschimel. It's about time!


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## motormom (Nov 16, 2013)

Deuteronomy also says that rape victims should be stoned along with their attackers (unless out in the country where cries for help couldn't be heard) or forced to marry their attackers, and that no one should wear clothing made of mixed linen and wool. You'll forgive me if I don't take the OT literally.


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## Pegster (Jul 8, 2011)

I'm really disappointed to see political discussions on this wonderful website which is supposed to be about knitting...No matter how you feel about the subject, it does not belong on this venue.


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## Maplelkknitter (Dec 19, 2013)

Amen!


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## marilyngf (Nov 5, 2011)

"Find your place...Be happy with what you have.
Treat everyone well...Live a good life.
It isn't about material things...It's about LOVE!"


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## knitbreak (Jul 19, 2011)

motormom said:


> We are so happy over SCOTUS' decision. Am waiting to find out if my cousin and his significant other will tie the knot. Matching scarves and hats as a wedding gift, do you think?


Same here,and he is also my cousin. He's a doctor and his partner is a writer. Most loving and fun couple to be around. As for knitting at night that's when I'm most relax and ready to work on my projects..Maybe because there's so much to do in the daytime,even though I'm retired. Go figure!


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## grandpatty (Sep 1, 2011)

I'd suggest continuing with the 400 + stitches and sending the sweater to Antonin Scalia--after sprinkling with itching powder.


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## Ommie (Jan 8, 2015)

This is a knitting blog. I shouldn't have to read this while looking for knitting ideas. It is not a political platform. Maybe now that this is the law, we can stop talking about it all the time.


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## cagneylauren (Aug 13, 2014)

Love the sinner, hate the sin. Pray that he might see the light.


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## marilyngf (Nov 5, 2011)

why is it when any postings bother people, they read them right through, then bitch and complain about them????


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## ivanhoe (Oct 21, 2013)

just because someone doesn't obey God's laws does not mean God does not love them. Otherwise He wouldn't love any of us


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## Meyow (May 2, 2013)

:thumbup:


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## kippyfure (Apr 9, 2011)

counting is the tricky part. So is getting married!! But now you have that option--just to make your life have more things to count on. I expect in general to be attending more weddings.


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## grandpatty (Sep 1, 2011)

kippyfure said:


> counting is the tricky part. So is getting married!! But now you have that option--just to make your life have more things to count on. I expect in general to be attending more weddings.


Well said!


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## Meyow (May 2, 2013)

kippyfure said:


> counting is the tricky part. So is getting married!! But now you have that option--just to make your life have more things to count on. I expect in general to be attending more weddings.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## skkp (Feb 13, 2011)

sschimel said:


> Okay, so perhaps I was distracted by the Supreme Court's landmark decision allowing me to marry whom I please but I should know never to start a new sweater late at night. The pattern is the Mount Robson Pullover in the Summer 2015 issue of Interweave Knits and it's knit in fingering weight yarn. The back says to cast on 221 stitches. The stitches are so tiny that to make it easier to count, I placed a marker every 20 stitches. I couldn't understand why it looked so wide until I realized that I counted every group of 20 as a group of 10. So I'd actually cast on 421 stitches. Ooops. But still, the Supreme Court ROCKS!!!!!!!


Knitting a man's sweater in fingering?!!! I agree the SC finally did the right thing but why was it a 5 to 4 decision!!! That part bothers me.


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## Nana5 (Aug 17, 2011)

The ability to laugh at our mistakes is a great part of the human spirit....so, guess a "do over" is something that can't be avoided. Good decision by Supreme Court by the way! Best of luck with your project!


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## Nana5 (Aug 17, 2011)

marilyngf said:


> why is it when any postings bother people, they read them right through, then bitch and complain about them????


My thoughts exactly!! If you don't like the subject, just click the "back button"....easy peasy! There is a saying that applies "if you can't say something nice, then say nothing at all".


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## monel (May 10, 2011)

Pegster said:


> I'm really disappointed to see political discussions on this wonderful website which is supposed to be about knitting...No matter how you feel about the subject, it does not belong on this venue.


Good things always belong here. This was a good thing.


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## Dcsmith77 (Apr 18, 2011)

motormom said:


> Deuteronomy also says that rape victims should be stoned along with their attackers (unless out in the country where cries for help couldn't be heard) or forced to marry their attackers, and that no one should wear clothing made of mixed linen and wool. You'll forgive me if I don't take the OT literally.


Or St. Paul. Contrary to many people's opinions, he wasn't Our Lord.

Let's get on with knitting!


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## SEA (Feb 9, 2011)

I did some knitting at an auction last night. Three rows back I noticed I had dropped a stitch. Attempted to fix it while project (basket weave baby blanket)sat on my lap. Ended up stuffing it back in the bag. I will tear it back today.

Furniture (oak pieces were the popular items) I wish I had needed chairs and tables they went for nothing. 

SEA


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## Pishi (Jul 15, 2013)

Dutchie1946 said:


> Only just _barely_. It sure would have been nice had it been a unanimous decision. Let's just see if anyone tries to appeal it.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Circular Knitter (Aug 15, 2013)

Yes I have to admit...I've done this more times than I can count on my 2 hands! And it is usually when I am distracted or I really to tired to start a project...but just HAVE to dive into it anyway!!! LOL

SOOOO, is the pictured sweater the one you're making, and if so would you please share the pattern. Thank you.
(It's been a good week).


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## Louette (May 9, 2011)

cagneylauren said:


> As a Christian and a follower of Jesus, I recognize that we, as a nation, are drifting further and further away from God. Without God, we are rudderless, we have lost our steering, our compass. If you read the Bible, Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination". Read Romans 1:26-27; Coriathians 6:19 and even in the first chapter of of the book....God created woman from the rib of man, as man's companion. I can not remain silent.


Amen. Thank you foe being the first to stand up for the WORD OF GOD. Others think because we don't support ssm that we are being hateful not true. By the way I sleep quite well at night.


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## marty1136 (Aug 2, 2011)

That's ok even the Supreme Court makes mistakes


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## laceweight (Jun 20, 2011)

Yay! Supremes are on a roll!


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## laceweight (Jun 20, 2011)

Dutchie1946 said:


> Only just _barely_. It sure would have been nice had it been a unanimous decision. Let's just see if anyone tries to appeal it.


Who will they appeal to? This is it!


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

Sorry, wrong response.


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## Caroline (Jan 26, 2011)

Cagney, Thank you and Amen!


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## Knitknutsy (Apr 5, 2015)

That is a great pattern. You will have to post a picture when you complete it. As far as loosing count I know how that goes. The other night I started a project and ripped it out three times because the count was wrong before I decided to give up and go to bed.

Good week for the Supreme Court.


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## Medieval Reenactor (Sep 3, 2013)

Dutchie1946 said:


> Only just _barely_. It sure would have been nice had it been a unanimous decision. Let's just see if anyone tries to appeal it.


Are you Canadian? (I seem to remember this....) In the US, there is no appeal to a Supreme Court decision. Only a constitutional amendment can change this. An amendment may be proposed either by the Congress with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate or by a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of the State legislatures. The second method has never to date been used.


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## hoosier (Dec 31, 2014)

oneofthegriffins said:


> Even this counting hint may not have helped in light of such a historic event, but I have been so grateful for this method which I read in a post by Olga-Marie on KP. I used to lose count all the time and this is so much better for me. Here's the link in case you want to give it a try...
> http://florriemarie.com/2014/09/05/quick-easy-counting/


Wow! This is a slick method. I can see how once you get the hang of it you would just go like the wind.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

cagneylauren said:


> As a Christian and a follower of Jesus, I recognize that we, as a nation, are drifting further and further away from God. Without God, we are rudderless, we have lost our steering, our compass. If you read the Bible, Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination". Read Romans 1:26-27; Coriathians 6:19 and even in the first chapter of of the book....God created woman from the rib of man, as man's companion. I can not remain silent.


I could call you a Biblican, or a Godian, but not a Christian. The literal definition of "Christian" is a follower of Jesus Christ. He never said word one about homosexuals. He spent considerable time socializing with people today's so-called Christian people look down upon. Somehow, the very understanding of what it was supposed to have meant to be a Christian has been lost in the USA by most, to the point that I am immediately suspicious when anyone makes a big point of saying he/she is one. It gets used as a ploy more than it is in any other way. I learned this from experience, having been rejected, cheated, lied to, betrayed, etc., by far more "Christians" than by members of any other religious or non-religious group of people, which is why I no longer identify as one. I cannot remain silent, either.


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## nankat (Oct 17, 2012)

cagneylauren said:


> As a Christian and a follower of Jesus, I recognize that we, as a nation, are drifting further and further away from God. Without God, we are rudderless, we have lost our steering, our compass. If you read the Bible, Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination". Read Romans 1:26-27; Coriathians 6:19 and even in the first chapter of of the book....God created woman from the rib of man, as man's companion. I can not remain silent.


If you would follow every single pronouncement in the bible then I would agree. But there is no one who really does. We all pick and choose, our specific houses of worship pick and choose. Our spiritual leaders pick and choose.
So pick and choose for yourself. Let others be and choose for themselves


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## CBratt (Dec 6, 2012)

I miscount all the time and I say the Supreme Court rocks as well! It's about time they have decided you cannot regulate love!


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Pegster said:


> I'm really disappointed to see political discussions on this wonderful website which is supposed to be about knitting...No matter how you feel about the subject, it does not belong on this venue.


While I'm sorry you're disappointed, we seem to need to remind folks on a daily basis lately that the "Chit-Chat" section is for NON-knitting/crocheting subjects. There are no rules currently on the forum against discussing politics, religion, or any other controversial subject so long as we follow the other rules regarding not calling others nasty names or making other uncalled-for comments. Whenever you encounter a subject you don't want to pursue, simply leave it and move on.


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## cagneylauren (Aug 13, 2014)

He actually said plenty


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

sschimel said:


> Okay, so perhaps I was distracted by the Supreme Court's landmark decision allowing me to marry whom I please but I should know never to start a new sweater late at night. The pattern is the Mount Robson Pullover in the Summer 2015 issue of Interweave Knits and it's knit in fingering weight yarn. The back says to cast on 221 stitches. The stitches are so tiny that to make it easier to count, I placed a marker every 20 stitches. I couldn't understand why it looked so wide until I realized that I counted every group of 20 as a group of 10. So I'd actually cast on 421 stitches. Ooops. But still, the Supreme Court ROCKS!!!!!!!


Congrats sschimel on the ruling. My son is a gay man & it was a very personal issue for me as well. I was working on the simplest of wash cloth patterns & had to rip out a few rows myself because I couldn't remember the mindless pattern of K2P1 due to my excited brain. I had no problem blowing up my own Facebook page with posts & pictures all day & night tho. Lol. I am still somewhere up around Cloud 6 today. Lol.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Ommie said:


> This is a knitting blog. I shouldn't have to read this while looking for knitting ideas. It is not a political platform. Maybe now that this is the law, we can stop talking about it all the time.


You are in the "Chit-Chat section, which is for non-knitting/crocheting subjects. You don't have to read it. Simply move on.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

cagneylauren said:


> He actually said plenty


Do you eat pork? Use yarns of mixed materials? Then you are in violation of the same book of Leviticus you recommend to others. You need to read the entire book, not only those parts you take out of context.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

sschimel said:


> Well, the model is cute. But no prospects for a husband at this point. I am accepting job applications, though.


Come to Phoenix sweetheart & I will introduce you to my fabulous son. He has been looking for an excuse for years to move back home to NY. :lol:


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## Nancylynn1946 (Nov 19, 2012)

You have now become a member of the OOPS Club.
I think we have all been there at least once.
Yeah, Supreme Court. It is about time!!!


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## sschimel (Mar 22, 2013)

Kneonknitter, I'm probably too old for your son. On the other hand, I'm an equal opportunity employer.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

motormom said:


> We are so happy over SCOTUS' decision. Am waiting to find out if my cousin and his significant other will tie the knot. Matching scarves and hats as a wedding gift, do you think?


 :thumbup:


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

cagneylauren said:


> Love the sinner, hate the sin. Pray that he might see the light.


But the thing is, you pray for folks to see YOUR light as YOU interpret it. Their light is often different from yours unless you associate with only those who believe the same way you do, which tends to warp your idea of reality. I don't know of two denominations of "Christians" who agree with with one another as to what the Bible says, Old Testament or New, do you? You and I could sit down and read a paragraph out of any other book at random and have two different understandings of what we just read. We don't suddenly turn magically alike when we read the Bible. Think about it.....


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

cagneylauren said:


> Love the sinner, hate the sin. Pray that he might see the light.


I pray that you see the light. The bible was written by man who 'interpreted' G-d's words into his own thoughts & wrote them down. Love is NOT a sin, therefore, LOVING is not a sin making people who love not sinners. Knowing as much as I do about the gay community & being a long time activist for them, I want to enlighten you to the fact that someone who is very close to you & others of your same prejudice thinking, is gay, but, because of your & other's like you narrowmindedness, they are afraid to live their lives to the fullest, out in the open where they belong. Praise G-d for having the wisdom of making all people equal.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

skkp said:


> Knitting a man's sweater in fingering?!!! I agree the SC finally did the right thing but why was it a 5 to 4 decision!!! That part bothers me.


While I agree that it troubling, I also think it's realistic. People simply see things differently depending upon upbringing, associates, life experiences, and so on. I doubt that will ever change, and I think that's a good thing in that we don't have to force ourselves into anyone else's ideals.

For the record, my son and his partner were gay, they died 18 and 13 years ago from complications of AIDS, I miss them terribly and will never recover. They were kinder, more caring, and more "Christian," although not proponents of organized religion for obvious reasons, than any other people I have ever known personally.


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

laceweight said:


> Who will they appeal to? This is it!


 It's happened before: http://money.howstuffworks.com/10-overturned-supreme-court-cases.htm


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

Medieval Reenactor said:


> Are you Canadian? ...


There are approximately 10,000 registered American voters living in Montreal; I am one of them and proud of it, though I am also the carrier of a Canadian passport - once the US relaxed its rules about dual citizenship sometime in the early 90s.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Just a comment here; statistics show that Americans are leaving organized religion in large numbers. How is it, then, that those who call themselves "Christians" in particular don't take a good look at those facts and at themselves to discover why that is?


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

grandpatty said:


> I'd suggest continuing with the 400 + stitches and sending the sweater to Antonin Scalia--after sprinkling with itching powder.


Thanks for today's biggest laugh!


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

marilyngf said:


> why is it when any postings bother people, they read them right through, then bitch and complain about them????


Excellent question - to which there canNOT be any _reasonable_ answer.


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> I could call you a Biblican, or a Godian, but not a Christian. The literal definition of "Christian" is a follower of Jesus Christ. He never said word one about homosexuals. He spent considerable time socializing with people today's so-called Christian people look down upon. Somehow, the very understanding of what it was supposed to have meant to be a Christian has been lost in the USA by most, to the point that I am immediately suspicious when anyone makes a big point of saying he/she is one. It gets used as a ploy more than it is in any other way. I learned this from experience, having been rejected, cheated, lied to, betrayed, etc., by far more "Christians" than by members of any other religious or non-religious group of people, which is why I no longer identify as one. I cannot remain silent, either.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## jodymorse151 (Sep 14, 2014)

Pegster said:


> I'm really disappointed to see political discussions on this wonderful website which is supposed to be about knitting...No matter how you feel about the subject, it does not belong on this venue.


AMEN ...


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## onegrannygoose (May 13, 2011)

Dutchie1946 said:


> Only just _barely_. It sure would have been nice had it been a unanimous decision. Let's just see if anyone tries to appeal it.


Supreme court decisions can not be appealed They are the last arbitrator and there decisions are the law of the land. Of course the republican congress will try to pass a law to counter act it. In the event that they do they will have put our country back50 years with their unreal reasoning.

When ever anything goes against them they invoke the bible
I believe they also say everything is God's will. I guess that only applies when it is something they agree with???


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## sschimel (Mar 22, 2013)

I love it when Bible thumpers get all holier than thou about homosexuality but have no problems with divorce. I might also point out that women are forbidden to speak in church in Corinthians so I'm assuming you keep your mouth shut in church.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

:thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

sschimel said:


> I love it when Bible thumpers get all holier than thou about homosexuality but have no problems with divorce. I might also point out that women are forbidden to speak in church in Corinthians so I'm assuming you keep your mouth shut in church.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

onegrannygoose said:


> Supreme court decisions can not be appealed They are the last arbitrator and there decisions are the law of the land. Of course the republican congress will try to pass a law to counter act it. In the event that they do they will have put our country back50 years with their unreal reasoning.
> 
> When ever anything goes against them they invoke the bible
> I believe they also say everything is God's will. I guess that *only applies when it is something they agree with*???


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

sschimel said:


> Okay, so perhaps I was distracted by the Supreme Court's landmark decision allowing me to marry whom I please but I should know never to start a new sweater late at night. The pattern is the Mount Robson Pullover in the Summer 2015 issue of Interweave Knits and it's knit in fingering weight yarn. The back says to cast on 221 stitches. The stitches are so tiny that to make it easier to count, I placed a marker every 20 stitches. I couldn't understand why it looked so wide until I realized that I counted every group of 20 as a group of 10. So I'd actually cast on 421 stitches. Ooops. But still, the Supreme Court ROCKS!!!!!!!


Well look at it this way you only have to remove half your stitches. LOL


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Well look at it this way you only have to remove half your stitches. LOL


That's what I call looking at the positive not the negative.


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## Roe (Feb 10, 2011)

Wondering if the President's eulogy helped push it. I think it's about time! No more fear,hiding, or explaining. Live, love and be happy as you are! &#128079;&#128077;


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## Bubba24 (Jan 2, 2012)

Sorry about your knitting mistake but great ruling by the Supreme Court. Way over due.


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## GoldenLaugh (Feb 21, 2013)

So happy for you and your partner!


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

cydneyjo said:


> The Court surprised me, in a good way. And I count by fives both when casting on and mid-project counts. Also, have learned to put my knitting down when my eyes get heavy. Have woken in my chair to find lots of dropped stitches.


Haven't we all? :lol:


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## SherryPark (Jun 8, 2015)

Oh, that's funny.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> While I agree that it troubling, I also think it's realistic. People simply see things differently depending upon upbringing, associates, life experiences, and so on. I doubt that will ever change, and I think that's a good thing in that we don't have to force ourselves into anyone else's ideals.
> 
> For the record, my son and his partner were gay, they died 18 and 13 years ago from complications of AIDS, I miss them terribly and will never recover. They were kinder, more caring, and more "Christian," although not proponents of organized religion for obvious reasons, than any other people I have ever known personally.


I have long noticed that people who are vilified by people who consider themselves Christians, are actually far more Christian than the fanatics who criticize them. I have known minorities, Jews, gays and handicapped people whose lives and values exemplify Christ's, even though they have hardly experienced Christian kindness towards themselves by so called Christians. My Dad summed up his core values by saying, "Live and let live." and "Put yourself in the other person's place." and "Treat others as you would like them to treat you." When I was young, I thought this very simplistic. Now that I'm pushing 70, I realize that really does sum it up. What a world this would be, if everyone could do this.


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## Ask4j (May 21, 2011)

nankat said:


> I think the Supreme Court is beyond appeal from the states. I think what they say is law....interpretation of law based upon the constitution.
> 
> I never knit past 10 pm.


Agree with both opinions--it's about time we move out of the dark ages. and speaking of dark, well it's light until almost 10:00p in summer, my problem is I fall asleep by then whether it's light or not.

As for your mistake--your mind was elsewhere for good reason but the suggestion by an earlier post of knitting in the round is a good one--no seams and a lot of mindless knitting is good for summer when there are other things to enjoy. It's raining right now otherwise I would be elsewhere. Have a great Sunday all!


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

I too was very happy at the Supreme Court decision! However, I would have liked it to be unanimous! 

We all make those knitting mistakes! I belong to a wonderful knitting group at my local senior center, and we have all learned not to bring a difficult pattern to work on there. at our age, we need peace, quiet and very good light to work on difficult patterns. Instead, we all make baby blankets for the "From the Heart" charity.

I sure hope you post a photo of your finished sweater!


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> While I agree that it troubling, I also think it's realistic. People simply see things differently depending upon upbringing, associates, life experiences, and so on. I doubt that will ever change, and I think that's a good thing in that we don't have to force ourselves into anyone else's ideals.
> 
> For the record, my son and his partner were gay, they died 18 and 13 years ago from complications of AIDS, I miss them terribly and will never recover. They were kinder, more caring, and more "Christian," although not proponents of organized religion for obvious reasons, than any other people I have ever known personally.


I am so very sorry for your loss! I am sure no one ever gets over losing a child. I too, stay away from "organized religion" as I find them to be very exclusive instead of inclusive. And I believe that there is more in the Bible about loving one another than any other subject. My thoughts and prayers are with you!


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## CBB (Sep 12, 2014)

sschimel said:


> Okay, so perhaps I was distracted by the Supreme Court's landmark decision allowing me to marry whom I please but I should know never to start a new sweater late at night. The pattern is the Mount Robson Pullover in the Summer 2015 issue of Interweave Knits and it's knit in fingering weight yarn. The back says to cast on 221 stitches. The stitches are so tiny that to make it easier to count, I placed a marker every 20 stitches. I couldn't understand why it looked so wide until I realized that I counted every group of 20 as a group of 10. So I'd actually cast on 421 stitches. Ooops. But still, the Supreme Court ROCKS!!!!!!!


Sorry about the miscount. We've all been there. As for the SCOTUS ruling, :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

cagneylauren said:


> As a Christian and a follower of Jesus, I recognize that we, as a nation, are drifting further and further away from God. Without God, we are rudderless, we have lost our steering, our compass. If you read the Bible, Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination". Read Romans 1:26-27; Coriathians 6:19 and even in the first chapter of of the book....God created woman from the rib of man, as man's companion. I can not remain silent.


As a follower of Christ, which of His teachings would you say, instructs us to vilify our neighbors? In which of the 10 Commandments did God instruct us to judge and condemn others? As a Christian, I do my best to live by the teachings of Jesus and to follow the 10 Commandments. Every day I ask myself, 'What would Jesus do?'


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> I could call you a Biblican, or a Godian, but not a Christian. The literal definition of "Christian" is a follower of Jesus Christ. He never said word one about homosexuals. He spent considerable time socializing with people today's so-called Christian people look down upon. Somehow, the very understanding of what it was supposed to have meant to be a Christian has been lost in the USA by most, to the point that I am immediately suspicious when anyone makes a big point of saying he/she is one. It gets used as a ploy more than it is in any other way. I learned this from experience, having been rejected, cheated, lied to, betrayed, etc., by far more "Christians" than by members of any other religious or non-religious group of people, which is why I no longer identify as one. I cannot remain silent, either.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

raindancer said:


> I am so very sorry for your loss! I am sure no one ever gets over losing a child. I too, stay away from "organized religion" as I find them to be very exclusive instead of inclusive. And I believe that there is more in the Bible about loving one another than any other subject. My thoughts and prayers are with you!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## marty1136 (Aug 2, 2011)

Even the Supreme Court makes mistakes


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## marty1136 (Aug 2, 2011)

Even the Supreme Court makes mistakes


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

marty1136 said:


> Even the Supreme Court makes mistakes


Was there a reason you had to repeat yourself?


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## knitnanny (Feb 28, 2012)

Glad you found your mistake early enough! Wonderful decision by the Supreme Court. Now people won't have to come to Canada to marry!!!


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

raindancer said:


> I am so very sorry for your loss! I am sure no one ever gets over losing a child. I too, stay away from "organized religion" as I find them to be very exclusive instead of inclusive. And I believe that there is more in the Bible about loving one another than any other subject. My thoughts and prayers are with you!


Thank you.

Those members of organized religion are extremely exclusive. They appear all wrapped in the letter of "Biblical law" rather than the spirit of what the book teaches, and don't see beyond the rule-following to the repeated messages of love. They seem to have confused perfection in following the "rules" with perfection in how to live one's life, and of course, there is no such humanly attainable thing as perfection on either side of it. It's almost like they have come to say, "I'm a Christian (therefore, you should fall down and worship me). I have no problem with "true" Christians, those who love first and do not judge and condemn others who are not exactly like them, but I'm all out of patience with the hypocrites who think it's all about being admired by their fellow human beings for their outward piety. These types of Christians, of course, are not the only people who behave that way, but they are the ones who should know better if they're paying any attention at all to what they say they believe.

Time to get off the soap box.....


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

raindancer said:


> ... I too, stay away from "organized religion" as I find them to be very *ex*clusive instead of *in*clusive. ...


Sadly, your statement is all too true. Would that it were otherwise!


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## Louette (May 9, 2011)

marty1136 said:


> Even the Supreme Court makes mistakes


I agree. No I do not hate anyone. I sin daily and an very grateful for His grace.


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## Ask4j (May 21, 2011)

Roe said:


> Wondering if the President's eulogy helped push it. I think it's about time! No more fear,hiding, or explaining. Live, love and be happy as you are! 👏👍


 :thumbup: you are so right on!!


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## destimonahoward (Jan 23, 2015)

cagneylauren said:


> As a Christian and a follower of Jesus, I recognize that we, as a nation, are drifting further and further away from God. Without God, we are rudderless, we have lost our steering, our compass. If you read the Bible, Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination". Read Romans 1:26-27; Coriathians 6:19 and even in the first chapter of of the book....God created woman from the rib of man, as man's companion. I can not remain silent.


I tend to agree with you on this. Although I also have to remember that God told us not to judge others lest we be judged ourselves.

My son and I have completely different opinions on this subject. He says gays have every right to be as miserable as the rest of us, but I just keep coming back to the Bible that says it's wrong.

Oh well. It is what it is now, and I guess God can sort it out.


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## CBratt (Dec 6, 2012)

kneonknitter said:


> I pray that you see the light. The bible was written by man who 'interpreted' G-d's words into his own thoughts & wrote them down. Love is NOT a sin, therefore, LOVING is not a sin making people who love not sinners. Knowing as much as I do about the gay community & being a long time activist for them, I want to enlighten you to the fact that someone who is very close to you & others of your same prejudice thinking, is gay, but, because of your & other's like you narrowmindedness, they are afraid to live their lives to the fullest, out in the open where they belong. Praise G-d for having the wisdom of making all people equal.


You said it! God doesn't make mistakes and he made ALL of us!


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> Do you eat pork? Use yarns of mixed materials? Then you are in violation of the same book of Leviticus you recommend to others. You need to read the entire book, not only those parts you take out of context.


 :thumbup: SAMkewel people only respect what they want to pick & choose to respect. They think they are holier than thou. They think because they are bible thumpers, this makes them 'Christian'. They need to look at the foundation of Christianity which is Judaism, a religion that is truly based on kindness in all forms. Jesus was not a hateful person & did not teach hate. He taught love for all. He was a Jew & never converted from being one. These people need in depth bible study classes. He was born a Jew & died a Jew. Christians need to practice what he preached, not what they have been brain washed to believe he teached. I make you a bet that if these so called Christians opened some closet doors in their families, they would be very surprised at what comes out of the closets.


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## marilyngf (Nov 5, 2011)

kneonknitter said:


> :thumbup: SAMkewel people only respect what they want to pick & choose to respect. They think they are holier than thou. They think because they are bible thumpers, this makes them 'Christian'. They need to look at the foundation of Christianity which is Judaism, a religion that is truly based on kindness in all forms. Jesus was not a hateful person & did not teach hate. He taught love for all. He was a Jew & never converted from being one. These people need in depth bible study classes. He was born a Jew & died a Jew. Christians need to practice what he preached, not what they have been brain washed to believe he teached. I make you a bet that if these so called Christians opened some closet doors in their families, they would be very surprised at what comes out of the closets.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

sschimel said:


> Kneonknitter, I'm probably too old for your son. On the other hand, I'm an equal opportunity employer.


Age is but a number. He is 41 & I can start you off on one thing you both have in common...talent. He is a make up artist & you are a knitter. I follow your posts & they always make me think 'Boy, I wish we were back in Queens, I would so get them together.' LOL.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

skkp said:


> Knitting a man's sweater in fingering?!!! I agree the SC finally did the right thing but why was it a 5 to 4 decision!!! That part bothers me.


Well, just look at one of them...Clarence Thomas. Remember his scandal? The man is a POS.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

marty1136 said:


> That's ok even the Supreme Court makes mistakes


Yes that's true & so does G-d when he allows people who are haters to hate.


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## fdb123 (Mar 30, 2012)

My spouse and I have been together for over 20 years and legally married for the last year and half here in WA state. I have experienced more love, kindness and respect with her than I ever did in my heterosexual marriage. This is not a comment on men or on heterosexual marriage. It is to say that those are the qualities that make a marriage, not the physical equipment one brings. Without those things there is no marriage whatever the genders involved. 

Keep going on that sweater!


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

kneonknitter said:


> Yes that's true & so does G-d when he allows people who are haters to hate.


No child was ever born hating or having any prejudice. They learned it as they developed, usually from their parents, sometimes from clerics or teachers, sometimes from peer pressure they were too weak to resist.

What I fail to understand is just why most haters can never unlearn that hate.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> I could call you a Biblican, or a Godian, but not a Christian. The literal definition of "Christian" is a follower of Jesus Christ. He never said word one about homosexuals. He spent considerable time socializing with people today's so-called Christian people look down upon. Somehow, the very understanding of what it was supposed to have meant to be a Christian has been lost in the USA by most, to the point that I am immediately suspicious when anyone makes a big point of saying he/she is one. It gets used as a ploy more than it is in any other way. I learned this from experience, having been rejected, cheated, lied to, betrayed, etc., by far more "Christians" than by members of any other religious or non-religious group of people, which is why I no longer identify as one. I cannot remain silent, either.


 :thumbup:


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> While I agree that it troubling, I also think it's realistic. People simply see things differently depending upon upbringing, associates, life experiences, and so on. I doubt that will ever change, and I think that's a good thing in that we don't have to force ourselves into anyone else's ideals.
> 
> For the record, my son and his partner were gay, they died 18 and 13 years ago from complications of AIDS, I miss them terribly and will never recover. They were kinder, more caring, and more "Christian," although not proponents of organized religion for obvious reasons, than any other people I have ever known personally.


I am so sorry SAMkewel for your losses. May they RIP & I hope you find comfort in your memories.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

sschimel said:


> I love it when Bible thumpers get all holier than thou about homosexuality but have no problems with divorce. I might also point out that women are forbidden to speak in church in Corinthians so I'm assuming you keep your mouth shut in church.


Rofl! Now I know I love you!!!


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

fdb123 said:


> My spouse and I have been together for over 20 years and legally married for the last year and half here in WA state. I have experienced more love, kindness and respect with her than I ever did in my heterosexual marriage. This is not a comment on men or on heterosexual marriage. It is to say that those are the qualities that make a marriage, not the physical equipment one brings. Without those things there is no marriage whatever the genders involved.
> 
> Keep going on that sweater!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I am soooo happy for you both!


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

Dutchie1946 said:


> No child was ever born hating or having any prejudice. They learned it as they developed, usually from their parents, sometimes from clerics or teachers, sometimes from peer pressure they were too weak to resist.
> 
> What I fail to understand is just why most haters can never unlearn that hate.


I find it mind boggling!


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## Nicola33 (Apr 27, 2015)

Pegster said:


> I'm really disappointed to see political discussions on this wonderful website which is supposed to be about knitting...No matter how you feel about the subject, it does not belong on this venue.


I agree. Disappointed, as well.


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## Nicola33 (Apr 27, 2015)

Ommie said:


> This is a knitting blog. I shouldn't have to read this while looking for knitting ideas. It is not a political platform. Maybe now that this is the law, we can stop talking about it all the time.


Yes, please.


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## Nicola33 (Apr 27, 2015)

SAMkewel said:


> You are in the "Chit-Chat section, which is for non-knitting/crocheting subjects. You don't have to read it. Simply move on.


No, I believe this is the "Main" section.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Nicola33 said:


> No, I believe this is the "Main" section.


You're probably right, most of us don't pay as much attention as we used to regarding that. Since Admin doesn't see fit to restrict these kinds of topics and it is equally easy to skip them when one does not approve of them, I guess he and the monitors don't think it's a problem or some "corrective action" would have been taken. You are free to contact Admin if you think it's intolerable and see what they say.....


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## JoannaP (Jul 24, 2011)

skkp said:


> Knitting a man's sweater in fingering?!!! I agree the SC finally did the right thing but why was it a 5 to 4 decision!!! That part bothers me.


Because 4 people were thinking with logic and legal reasoning, not their hearts. Many people who do not support gay marriage understand the law and realise that now that the definition has changed there is only a slippery slope to slide down. Now people can claim it is their constitutional right to marry 7 other people, or to marry their goldfish. And there is no law to stop it.

And I agree with the posters who said this topic, which many of us innocently thought was a post about a mistake made in knitting and we might be able to help (only to discover the landmine of a political discussion) is more appropriately housed in the non-knitting general talk category.


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## judeanne (Mar 6, 2011)

Hooray for the SCOTUS for getting it right.


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## Jean williams (Nov 11, 2014)

Free speech...totally disagree with the Supreme Court.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

JoannaP said:


> Because 4 people were thinking with logic and legal reasoning, not their hearts. Many people who do not support gay marriage understand the law and realise that now that the definition has changed there is only a slippery slope to slide down. Now people can claim it is their constitutional right to marry 7 other people, or to marry their goldfish. And there is no law to stop it.
> 
> And I agree with the posters who said this topic, which many of us innocently thought was a post about a mistake made in knitting and we might be able to help (only to discover the landmine of a political discussion) is more appropriately housed in the non-knitting general talk category.


But what you are saying about marrying seven other people or their goldfish is not logic and legal reasoning, it sounds like more of a scare tactic to me. I cannot imagine anyone going through all the steps LGBT people have gone through, to gain certain legal rights, becoming an expensive and time consuming battle to gain the right to marry seven people, which has already been made illegal, or their goldfish, which would be dead long before it got through the courts.

I also cannot imagine why, if you feel this is a landmine of a political discussion, you persist in following it. There have been a good number of discussions I skip because of the title alone, which, under the rules, is supposed to be far more specific than "Help" so that people can find it under "Search" later without wading through 40 or so threads with an identical title.

There have been many other threads I have left due to lack of interest or aversion to the turn in conversation or some other reason. I do not generally try to tell other people what to do when that happens, however, since other people are not here to please me alone. This is a worldwide forum, and it seems to me that expecting it to be pleasing to each and every individual at all times is unreasonable. I think the provisions to unwatch certain topics or simply back out and not read them should be adequate protection for anyone who doesn't wish to participate in any particular thread for any particular reason. It certainly works for me.


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## marilyngf (Nov 5, 2011)

http://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1922071_699834146704195_1492496818_n.jpg?oh=1dc5b112b6b9da52ddd66301e0d5575f&oe=56249A89


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## JoannaP (Jul 24, 2011)

Samkewl said: I also cannot imagine why, if you feel this is a landmine of a political discussion, you persist in following it. There have been a good number of discussions I skip because of the title alone, which, under the rules, is supposed to be far more specific than "Help" so that people can find it under "Search" later without wading through 40 or so threads with an identical title.

There have been many other threads I have left due to lack of interest or aversion to the turn in conversation or some other reason. I do not generally try to tell other people what to do when that happens, however, since other people are not here to please me alone. This is a worldwide forum, and it seems to me that expecting it to be pleasing to each and every individual at all times is unreasonable. I think the provisions to unwatch certain topics or simply back out and not read them should be adequate protection for anyone who doesn't wish to participate in any particular thread for any particular reason. It certainly works for me.

JoannaP said:
Absolutely true. Which is why I did not "persist" in following it. I read a page to see if there was any help to offer, saw the course of the thread, offered my thought on the appropriateness of the category, and am now leaving. Thanks


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## knitteerli (Jun 3, 2015)

Can't see why one subject can't lead on to another ad infinitum. Knitting is a pastime that enables musing and pondering, often to the point of distraction from the job in hand. But a chatline is not a knitting project requiring close attention to any pattern, surely. Knitting need not stultify conversation and consideration of ideas beyond the set pattern, nor need other ideas not related to the pattern in hand distract from the project undertaken.

A simple lapse in concentration led a knitter to make a mistake in his project and he chose to share his goof up with his knitting community. From there the conversation led many different knitters to consider many different things. There is no law that binds us to considering only one aspect of a thread, so far as I have discovered.

Small mistakes can lead to great solutions. Overly strict compliance to one set pattern can be a greater mistake than keeping an open mind willing to consider the ideas other choose to share with us.

Love the discussions, they keep our brains stimulated and healthy. Stomp not lest ye be stomped.


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## barbdpayne (Jan 24, 2011)

Great decision by the Supreme Court. Maybe not so much on your part deciding to knit late at night.


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## nankat (Oct 17, 2012)

Dutchie1946 said:


> It's happened before: http://money.howstuffworks.com/10-overturned-supreme-court-cases.htm


Thank you for the link.

I would like to see also a list of cases that were not changed by the court in later years. 'They' keep trying to overturn Roe vs. Wade. I am sure they will continue to try.


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## nankat (Oct 17, 2012)

kneonknitter said:


> :thumbup: SAMkewel people only respect what they want to pick & choose to respect. They think they are holier than thou. They think because they are bible thumpers, this makes them 'Christian'. They need to look at the foundation of Christianity which is Judaism, a religion that is truly based on kindness in all forms. Jesus was not a hateful person & did not teach hate. He taught love for all. He was a Jew & never converted from being one. These people need in depth bible study classes. He was born a Jew & died a Jew. Christians need to practice what he preached, not what they have been brain washed to believe he teached. I make you a bet that if these so called Christians opened some closet doors in their families, they would be very surprised at what comes out of the closets.


Your express yourself and write beautifully.


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## missyern (Jan 23, 2011)

Oh grief. I live in Texas - our state government is full of idiots. They want to ignore the supreme court.


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## secelia8 (Jan 7, 2013)

Apparently you do not read the "Holy Bible".


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## missyern (Jan 23, 2011)

I truly wish everyone would mind their own business. What do I care what my neighbor does as long as it doesn't harm another? Live and let live. When we were young we told to clean around your own doorstep before you pointed to someone eases.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> But what you are saying about marrying seven other people or their goldfish is not logic and legal reasoning, it sounds like more of a scare tactic to me. I cannot imagine anyone going through all the steps LGBT people have gone through, to gain certain legal rights, becoming an expensive and time consuming battle to gain the right to marry seven people, which has already been made illegal, or their goldfish, which would be dead long before it got through the courts.
> 
> I also cannot imagine why, if you feel this is a landmine of a political discussion, you persist in following it. There have been a good number of discussions I skip because of the title alone, which, under the rules, is supposed to be far more specific than "Help" so that people can find it under "Search" later without wading through 40 or so threads with an identical title.
> 
> There have been many other threads I have left due to lack of interest or aversion to the turn in conversation or some other reason. I do not generally try to tell other people what to do when that happens, however, since other people are not here to please me alone. This is a worldwide forum, and it seems to me that expecting it to be pleasing to each and every individual at all times is unreasonable. I think the provisions to unwatch certain topics or simply back out and not read them should be adequate protection for anyone who doesn't wish to participate in any particular thread for any particular reason. It certainly works for me.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

nankat said:


> Your express yourself and write beautifully.


Thank you nankat.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

missyern said:


> I truly wish everyone would mind their own business. What do I care what my neighbor does as long as it doesn't harm another? Live and let live. When we were young we told to clean around your own doorstep before you pointed to someone eases.


 :thumbup:


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

knitteerli said:


> Can't see why one subject can't lead on to another ad infinitum. Knitting is a pastime that enables musing and pondering, often to the point of distraction from the job in hand. But a chatline is not a knitting project requiring close attention to any pattern, surely. Knitting need not stultify conversation and consideration of ideas beyond the set pattern, nor need other ideas not related to the pattern in hand distract from the project undertaken.
> 
> A simple lapse in concentration led a knitter to make a mistake in his project and he chose to share his goof up with his knitting community. From there the conversation led many different knitters to consider many different things. There is no law that binds us to considering only one aspect of a thread, so far as I have discovered.
> 
> ...


*Hear! Hear!!!* :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## scumbugusa (Oct 10, 2011)

Oh my what a lot of stitches. 

A great decision too long in the making. :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## crystalrose (Apr 22, 2011)

Okay, I'm definately going to be stepping on toes here, so get out your Bactine. I totally agree with cagneylauren. Do all of you who are so thrilled about this decision think that that is all this is about? Live and let live? These people have an agenda. The're not going to be happy with letting things be as they are now. Are you all really so blind? They want their way of life to be the norm for EVERYONE wether you're of that persuasion or not! Is this what you want for your children and grandchildren? And before you chime in with'"If my child or grandchild was gay I would totally support them.", let me tell you, they won't have a chance to decide if they were born that way or not, because these people want them to be taught that being gay is the norm practically from the second they are born. How will you feel if one day your heterosexual son or daughter and their spouse want to adopt a baby and they're told, "Sorry, we don't have any babies available for you, because we give preference to gay couples."? Wake up and smell the coffee!!


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

crystalrose said:


> Okay, I'm definately going to be stepping on toes here, so get out your Bactine. I totally agree with cagneylauren. Do all of you who are so thrilled about this decision think that that is all this is about? Live and let live? These people have an agenda. The're not going to be happy with letting things be as they are now. Are you all really so blind? They want their way of life to be the norm for EVERYONE wether you're of that persuasion or not! Is this what you want for your children and grandchildren? And before you chime in with'"If my child or grandchild was gay I would totally support them.", let me tell you, they won't have a chance to decide if they were born that way or not, because these people want them to be taught that being gay is the norm practically from the second they are born. How will you feel if one day your heterosexual son or daughter and their spouse want to adopt a baby and they're told, "Sorry, we don't have any babies available for you, because we give preference to gay couples."? Wake up and smell the coffee!!


Your not serious! This is the most outrageous rant I think I've ever heard. Please seek help.


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## cah (Oct 2, 2014)

Bea 465 said:


> Your not serious! This is the most outrageous rant I think I've ever heard. Please seek help.


I'm not even going to touch that one! I've not seen that level of crazy on here before. I'd like to say it's just an uneducated rant but it goes far beyond that.


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## fdb123 (Mar 30, 2012)

Slippery slopes...my, my, Can we say "consenting adults"? My goldfish can't give consent even if I wanted to marry all 7 of them. The world changes and that is a fearful thing whether we are worried about cultural standards, technologies that threaten our privacy and jobs, etc. In my youth, people were fearful of desegregation, young men with long hair and beards, women pursuing careers that were for men only. As I recall, the collapse of the country was just around the corner. A "comfortable Christianity" is no longer the norm. It never was. The rest of us were just invisible and our lives made difficult and sometimes impossible so that the others needn't be challenged in their attitudes and beliefs. I think having to examine our biases and attitudes is a blessing and part of necessary growth. If you find you truly believe God intends marriage between one man and one woman (certainly not in the OT), then by all means live that way. I will, in turn, follow my beliefs which allow me to return love where I find it.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

crystalrose said:


> Okay, I'm definately going to be stepping on toes here, so get out your Bactine. I totally agree with cagneylauren. Do all of you who are so thrilled about this decision think that that is all this is about? Live and let live? These people have an agenda. The're not going to be happy with letting things be as they are now. Are you all really so blind? They want their way of life to be the norm for EVERYONE wether you're of that persuasion or not! Is this what you want for your children and grandchildren? And before you chime in with'"If my child or grandchild was gay I would totally support them.", let me tell you, they won't have a chance to decide if they were born that way or not, because these people want them to be taught that being gay is the norm practically from the second they are born. How will you feel if one day your heterosexual son or daughter and their spouse want to adopt a baby and they're told, "Sorry, we don't have any babies available for you, because we give preference to gay couples."? Wake up and smell the coffee!!


My child IS gay, I do totally support him & have been doing so for the past 25 years & even became an activist in the gay community of our home town.


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## fdb123 (Mar 30, 2012)

crystalrose said:


> Okay, I'm definately going to be stepping on toes here, so get out your Bactine. I totally agree with cagneylauren. Do all of you who are so thrilled about this decision think that that is all this is about? Live and let live? These people have an agenda. The're not going to be happy with letting things be as they are now. Are you all really so blind? They want their way of life to be the norm for EVERYONE wether you're of that persuasion or not! Is this what you want for your children and grandchildren? And before you chime in with'"If my child or grandchild was gay I would totally support them.", let me tell you, they won't have a chance to decide if they were born that way or not, because these people want them to be taught that being gay is the norm practically from the second they are born. How will you feel if one day your heterosexual son or daughter and their spouse want to adopt a baby and they're told, "Sorry, we don't have any babies available for you, because we give preference to gay couples."? Wake up and smell the coffee!!


Holy cow, Crystalrose, that sounds like a pretty good description of how homosexuals have been treated, except we've also been thrown in jail, kicked out of jobs and apartments, not allowed to teach or serve in the military, disowned by parents, denied access to dying loved ones and had our children taken away. You don't need to be so fearful, having experienced it ourselves we don't wish to do the same to anyone else.


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## Dcsmith77 (Apr 18, 2011)

I lived in an 11 apt bldg and was the only straight person there for nearly 14 years. My neighbors were the best I've ever had. They never ever once tried to tell me how to live. Three died of AIDS during the worst of the epidemic. I still think of them. Two stayed together and have adopted two children and these men are model parents (a boy and a girl). There is no sign that I have ever noticed of them trying to steer either of their teen-age (now) children in any direction other than to be good productive citizens and upright human beings. They are better parents IMHO than some heterosexual couples I know. They are also active members in an Episcopal Church in Wash.,DC. No problems there, either. 

There was an old camp song that went something like "They will know we are Christians by our love, by our love. They will know we are Christians by our love." Try that...You don't have to tell anyone you are a Christian if you live the life of one.

HOWEVER, no matter how good a life you live, don't try to knit when you are too tired to count!


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

knitteerli said:


> Can't see why one subject can't lead on to another ad infinitum. Knitting is a pastime that enables musing and pondering, often to the point of distraction from the job in hand. But a chatline is not a knitting project requiring close attention to any pattern, surely. Knitting need not stultify conversation and consideration of ideas beyond the set pattern, nor need other ideas not related to the pattern in hand distract from the project undertaken.
> 
> A simple lapse in concentration led a knitter to make a mistake in his project and he chose to share his goof up with his knitting community. From there the conversation led many different knitters to consider many different things. There is no law that binds us to considering only one aspect of a thread, so far as I have discovered.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. I'd rather run the risks of speaking my mind and/or sharing my experiences at any moment and ultimately being proved wrong than to stagnate with what I grew up with in a ever-changing world. Apparently some prefer to stay in their comfort zones, and that's their choice for I condemn no one. The rub is when they want us all to do the same.

Four years ago I was awash in grief and growing more bitter by the day; then there was Knitting Paradise, where I found a thousand and one new ways to knit, crochet, look at the world, meet wonderful people from all walks of life, both in my own country and across the world, and discuss whatever without cursing, name calling, or being unduly rude. What a delight! Having long been a believer in growth or death for humanity, I'll choose to grow even if it's occasionally in the wrong direction; I can always back off and choose another direction IF that's what's in my heart and mind. So, carry on KPers. This forum with its diversities has been a lifesaver for me. Even when I'm wrong and someone tells me so ;~D.


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## nankat (Oct 17, 2012)

crystalrose said:


> Okay, I'm definately going to be stepping on toes here, so get out your Bactine. I totally agree with cagneylauren. Do all of you who are so thrilled about this decision think that that is all this is about? Live and let live? These people have an agenda. The're not going to be happy with letting things be as they are now. Are you all really so blind? They want their way of life to be the norm for EVERYONE wether you're of that persuasion or not! Is this what you want for your children and grandchildren? And before you chime in with'"If my child or grandchild was gay I would totally support them.", let me tell you, they won't have a chance to decide if they were born that way or not, because these people want them to be taught that being gay is the norm practically from the second they are born. How will you feel if one day your heterosexual son or daughter and their spouse want to adopt a baby and they're told, "Sorry, we don't have any babies available for you, because we give preference to gay couples."? Wake up and smell the coffee!!


Oh My.
Someone has put the fear into you.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

kneonknitter said:


> My child IS gay, I do totally support him & have been doing so for the past 25 years & even became an activist in the gay community of our home town.


I was able to support my gay son, he who made his gayness known without realizing it at the age of three months, until he died just short of his 44th birthday. I was also an activist, which made me a target of the church I formerly belonged to and a certain segment of the community in which I've lived and worked for the past 51 years; they do go for the jugular here in that prior community service no longer counted once I "outed" myself as the parent of a gay man. I wouldn't change either parts of my life other than to remove the film of fear and hatred that covers the eyes of homophobics. Sadly for me, but good for them, the GLBT community has moved out of this city into a neighboring larger one where the people are more accepting.

No one expressed sympathy when my son or his partner died except for a former employer who had moved out-of-state, even though there was a death notice in the local newspaper. Even adult stepchildren refused to visit him because they "didn't know what to say," although I notice they had plenty to say when their two full-siblings and parents died, both before and after. I could go on and on. The question I've never had answered is how do "Christians" who knew me for over 20 years in the last church (which calls itself 'liberal') I was a member of ignore me during the most devastating years of my life and call themselves "Christians?" I'll never know, because that part of my life has ended and I will never return. The only thing I heard from the pastors there was, "I don't like gays," from the associate and, "You're alone in this," from the senior. Wow. Just wow. That's the kind of leadership many Christian churches have these days, and the congregation was happy to follow. I won't make the mistake of involving myself in organized religion again. Enough.


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## CBratt (Dec 6, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> I was able to support my gay son, he who made his gayness known without realizing it at the age of three months, until he died just short of his 44th birthday. I was also an activist, which made me a target of the church I formerly belonged to and a certain segment of the community in which I've lived and worked for the past 51 years; they do go for the jugular here in that prior community service no longer counted once I "outed" myself as the parent of a gay man. I wouldn't change either parts of my life other than to remove the film of fear and hatred that covers the eyes of homophobics. Sadly for me, but good for them, the GLBT community has moved out of this city into a neighboring larger one where the people are more accepting.
> 
> No one expressed sympathy when my son or his partner died except for a former employer who had moved out-of-state, even though there was a death notice in the local newspaper. Even adult stepchildren refused to visit him because they "didn't know what to say," although I notice they had plenty to say when their two full-siblings and parents died, both before and after. I could go on and on. The question I've never had answered is how do "Christians" who knew me for over 20 years in the last church (which calls itself 'liberal') I was a member of ignore me during the most devastating years of my life and call themselves "Christians?" I'll never know, because that part of my life has ended and I will never return. The only thing I heard from the pastors there was, "I don't like gays," from the associate and, "You're alone in this," from the senior. Wow. Just wow. That's the kind of leadership many Christian churches have these days, and the congregation was happy to follow. I won't make the mistake of involving myself in organized religion again. Enough.


I am happy to say that our priest this weekend brought up the Supreme Court decision on the alter and he told us about a couple who had a gay daughter and she was getting married and the mother had come to him because she fully supported her daughter who was being married in NYC. The father would not go.

The priest went to see the father and asked him why he would not go. He replied....I just CANNOT. So the priest asked him, "do you love her?" The father replied that he did of course. So the priest then asked him, how then can you treat her this way?

So the Catholic church has lightened up a bit through the years thankfully. Like I said earlier, God doesn't make mistakes and he made each and every one of us. I am so sorry that you had to go through all of that alone.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

crystalrose said:


> Okay, I'm definately going to be stepping on toes here, so get out your Bactine. I totally agree with cagneylauren. Do all of you who are so thrilled about this decision think that that is all this is about? Live and let live? These people have an agenda. The're not going to be happy with letting things be as they are now. Are you all really so blind? They want their way of life to be the norm for EVERYONE wether you're of that persuasion or not! Is this what you want for your children and grandchildren? And before you chime in with'"If my child or grandchild was gay I would totally support them.", let me tell you, they won't have a chance to decide if they were born that way or not, because these people want them to be taught that being gay is the norm practically from the second they are born. How will you feel if one day your heterosexual son or daughter and their spouse want to adopt a baby and they're told, "Sorry, we don't have any babies available for you, because we give preference to gay couples."? Wake up and smell the coffee!!


Ah yes, the myth of the gay agenda. All of my gay friends and acquaintances, and most of my straight friends and acquaintances, have been laughing at this one for decades, because NO ONE can answer the question of, "Exactly what is the gay agenda?" You believe bizarre things you hear and repeat them as being gospel. Tell me, exactly what is the gay agenda? And exactly what is the homophobic agenda, which you appear to be familiar with, other than the spreading of fear and hatred?


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

CBratt said:


> I am happy to say that our priest this weekend brought up the Supreme Court decision on the alter and he told us about a couple who had a gay daughter and she was getting married and the mother had come to him because she fully supported her daughter who was being married in NYC. The father would not go.
> 
> The priest went to see the father and asked him why he would not go. He replied....I just CANNOT. So the priest asked him, "do you love her?" The father replied that he did of course. So the priest then asked him, how then can you treat her this way?
> 
> So the Catholic church has lightened up a bit through the years thankfully. Like I said earlier, God doesn't make mistakes and he made each and every one of us. I am so sorry that you had to go through all of that alone.


That's a great story and makes all the effort we have expended worthwhile, if only for one but hopefully for many.

I did go through it alone because DH was dying of dementia at the same time and wasn't even aware of it, but you know what? It made me tougher than nails in some areas, whereas I had been afraid of my own shadow prior to that, so I am truly grateful for having moved on regardless of what motivated it.


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## cah (Oct 2, 2014)

SAMkewel said:


> The only thing I heard from the pastors there was, "I don't like gays," from the associate and, "You're alone in this," from the senior. Wow. Just wow.


Wow indeed. So sorry you had to endure something like that. It's not only the gays christian churches turn away. Sometimes it's the handicapped as well. We're not involved in any organized religion ourselves because the church turned away my son, who has autism. I guess they were afraid the other children would catch it? More likely they figured he was too stupid to understand what was going on, too stupid to ever procreate, too stupid to contribute anything to their community, and therefore unworthy. That was about 12 years ago.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> I was able to support my gay son, he who made his gayness known without realizing it at the age of three months, until he died just short of his 44th birthday. I was also an activist, which made me a target of the church I formerly belonged to and a certain segment of the community in which I've lived and worked for the past 51 years; they do go for the jugular here in that prior community service no longer counted once I "outed" myself as the parent of a gay man. I wouldn't change either parts of my life other than to remove the film of fear and hatred that covers the eyes of homophobics. Sadly for me, but good for them, the GLBT community has moved out of this city into a neighboring larger one where the people are more accepting.
> No one expressed sympathy when my son or his partner died except for a former employer who had moved out-of-state, even though there was a death notice in the local newspaper. Even adult stepchildren refused to visit him because they "didn't know what to say," although I notice they had plenty to say when their two full-siblings and parents died, both before and after. I could go on and on. The question I've never had answered is how do "Christians" who knew me for over 20 years in the last church (which calls itself 'liberal') I was a member of ignore me during the most devastating years of my life and call themselves "Christians?" I'll never know, because that part of my life has ended and I will never return. The only thing I heard from the pastors there was, "I don't like gays," from the associate and, "You're alone in this," from the senior. Wow. Just wow. That's the kind of leadership many Christian churches have these days, and the congregation was happy to follow. I won't make the mistake of involving myself in organized religion again. Enough.


How utterly awful for you!! My DDH started having suspicions about our son around the age of 4. He had 'hate' problems throughout his school years until his senior year in high school. When he came out to us at the age of 17, we were not surprised & neither were most people who were within our extended families & friends. His 8 year old brother shrugged his shoulders & said 'so what? He's still my brother' & has been his advocate & protector right up to this day as has his 1 year younger sister. The heart break we suffer for our gay children suffering such prejudice & hateful treatment cannot be put into words. I cannot even try to imagine your pain. The people who treated you so despicably‎ will one day have to answer to their higher power for their actions. I am so glad KP has been a life saver for you. I always enjoy your presence here in the forum.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

cah said:


> Wow indeed. So sorry you had to endure something like that. It's not only the gays christian churches turn away. Sometimes it's the handicapped as well. We're not involved in any organized religion ourselves because the church turned away my son, who has autism. I guess they were afraid the other children would catch it? More likely they figured he was too stupid to understand what was going on, too stupid to ever procreate, too stupid to contribute anything to their community, and therefore unworthy. That was about 12 years ago.


How horrible cah!! I'm sorry for your heartache. I gave up on organized religion 32 years ago when my youngest son was born & a Rabbi wanted $500 to perform a bris & refused to do it because we could only afford to pay $100. We did find a Rabbi who did it for free & traveled 2 hours to our home to do it, but, my DDH were done at that point. I now practice my religion on my own, by adhering to the 10 Commandments as best as I can & think I am doing a pretty good job.


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## nankat (Oct 17, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> I was able to support my gay son, he who made his gayness known without realizing it at the age of three months, until he died just short of his 44th birthday. I was also an activist, which made me a target of the church I formerly belonged to and a certain segment of the community in which I've lived and worked for the past 51 years; they do go for the jugular here in that prior community service no longer counted once I "outed" myself as the parent of a gay man. I wouldn't change either parts of my life other than to remove the film of fear and hatred that covers the eyes of homophobics. Sadly for me, but good for them, the GLBT community has moved out of this city into a neighboring larger one where the people are more accepting.
> 
> No one expressed sympathy when my son or his partner died except for a former employer who had moved out-of-state, even though there was a death notice in the local newspaper. Even adult stepchildren refused to visit him because they "didn't know what to say," although I notice they had plenty to say when their two full-siblings and parents died, both before and after. I could go on and on. The question I've never had answered is how do "Christians" who knew me for over 20 years in the last church (which calls itself 'liberal') I was a member of ignore me during the most devastating years of my life and call themselves "Christians?" I'll never know, because that part of my life has ended and I will never return. The only thing I heard from the pastors there was, "I don't like gays," from the associate and, "You're alone in this," from the senior. Wow. Just wow. That's the kind of leadership many Christian churches have these days, and the congregation was happy to follow. I won't make the mistake of involving myself in organized religion again. Enough.


I am sorry for your losses.


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## hoosier (Dec 31, 2014)

Well, I think that it needs to be said at this point that stereotyping goes on in both directions. There are many, many individual Christians and Churches that would have responded in these instances with love and compassion and would have been lifesavers had you been in their midst. Heterogenous groups have positive and negative people all mixed together and so can't be painted with a broad brush.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

hoosier said:


> Well, I think that it needs to be said at this point that stereotyping goes on in both directions. There are many, many individual Christians and Churches that would have responded in these instances with love and compassion and would have been lifesavers had you been in their midst. Heterogenous groups have positive and negative people all mixed together and so can't be painted with a broad brush.


While I hear and understand what you are saying, this was the fourth church, fourth mainstream denomination I have moved on from in this community. There were several in Southern and Northern California, combined, due to the fact that we were a US Navy family and therefor, somehow, not acceptable. It was only in Idaho, which is notoriously conservative, that we found a non-mainstream, welcoming congregation. I cannot explain it, I can only tell you what I experienced. I don't think I have used a broad brush without reason. If there were positive people there, they chose to remain silent and non-supportive. One member here went so far as to tell the pastors that I was being treated at the local Public Health Department for STD's, and of course they believed her because she was a nurse there (and would have been in the wrong for breaking confidentiality even had it been true). She had confused me with a former step-DIL, but still inexcusable in my opinion. She is, however, one of their most revered Christians, who never apologized nor set the record straight.


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## Krunch (Nov 15, 2014)

:thumbup:


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

hoosier said:


> Well, I think that it needs to be said at this point that stereotyping goes on in both directions. There are many, many individual Christians and Churches that would have responded in these instances with love and compassion and would have been lifesavers had you been in their midst. Heterogenous groups have positive and negative people all mixed together and so can't be painted with a broad brush.


Yes you are absolutely right.


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

crystalrose said:


> Okay, I'm definitely going to be stepping on toes here, so get out your Bactine. I totally agree with cagneylauren. Do all of you who are so thrilled about this decision think that that is all this is about? Live and let live? These people have an agenda. The're not going to be happy with letting things be as they are now. Are you all really so blind? They want their way of life to be the norm for EVERYONE whether you're of that persuasion or not! Is this what you want for your children and grandchildren? And before you chime in with'"If my child or grandchild was gay I would totally support them.", let me tell you, they won't have a chance to decide if they were born that way or not, because these people want them to be taught that being gay is the norm practically from the second they are born. How will you feel if one day your heterosexual son or daughter and their spouse want to adopt a baby and they're told, "Sorry, we don't have any babies available for you, because we give preference to gay couples."? Wake up and smell the coffee!!


At first reading, I thought this was the raving of an imbecile. 
Then I remembered a bit of satire my daughter introduced me to. 
Have you read Jonathan Swift's satirical essay "A Modest Proposal"? 
It's a scary good read! 
crystalrose, I have decided to take your words as another - if less skillfully phrased - piece of satire. 
Why do I decide so? Simply because I do not want to believe that people with such attitudes even exist. I am happy that no one I know personally shares such attitudes.


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

On the subject of organized religion ... _my_ experience is that you are only a valued member if you donate cold hard cash copiously. If you're young, poor, and in need of some spiritual guidance, you're knocking on the wrong door.
I happily raised my children to be hard-working taxpayers - free to choose any religion that pleases them. They've chosen none.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

Dutchie1946 said:


> On the subject of organized religion ... _my_ experience is that you are only a valued member if you donate cold hard cash copiously. If you're young, poor, and in need of some spiritual guidance, you're knocking on the wrong door.
> I happily raised my children to be hard-working taxpayers - free to choose any religion that pleases them. They've chosen none.


My daughter married a 1st generation Italian man who's mother is a devout Catholic & attends church weekly without fail. Our children have decided to raise our grands in the Catholic religion since his mother is so involved in it. It is good for them as they have learned many good lessons there, but, I think once they are old enough to decide for themselves, they will stop going with her. My very dear SIL insists that my DD teach them Judaism as well, as little as she knows, he still insists so that they know their heritage & have learned to respect the Jewish side of their family as well. He even reminds my DD when the important holidays are almost due to arrive.


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

kneonknitter said:


> My daughter married a 1st generation Italian man who's mother is a devout Catholic & attends church weekly without fail. Our children have decided to raise our grands in the Catholic religion since his mother is so involved in it. It is good for them as they have learned many good lessons there, but, I think once they are old enough to decide for themselves, they will stop going with her. My very dear SIL insists that my DD teach them Judaism as well, as little as she knows, he still insists so that they know their heritage & have learned to respect the Jewish side of their family as well. He even reminds my DD when the important holidays are almost due to arrive.


That's good! I'm all for learning about different religions/cultures/languages. If I ever get a chance, I'd love to take a comparative religions class at the university level. I've read plenty over the years; it's probably a good thing my grandmother (also a devout RC) never checked to see what library books I brought home. I'm sure she would have had something (critical) to say about some of my choices!


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Dutchie1946 said:


> On the subject of organized religion ... _my_ experience is that you are only a valued member if you donate cold hard cash copiously. If you're young, poor, and in need of some spiritual guidance, you're knocking on the wrong door.
> I happily raised my children to be hard-working taxpayers - free to choose any religion that pleases them. They've chosen none.


There must have been something wrong with my particular cold, hard cash; perhaps it wasn't copious enough? At any rate, I discontinued my automatic monthly donation with the thinking that surely there was some other more deserving place to put it. Then I asked to have my name removed from the membership list. The first request was ignored. I'm still not certain about the second request since I no longer receive letters in search of additional funds, but do receive the church organ magazine in the mail. Strange, after 25+ years of membership, not a soul asked why I chose to withdraw..... I'll bet they were able to figure it out without my help...or they really didn't care. I can take my pick ;~).


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Dutchie1946 said:


> That's good! I'm all for learning about different religions/cultures/languages. If I ever get a chance, I'd love to take a comparative religions class at the university level. I've read plenty over the years; it's probably a good thing my grandmother (also a devout RC) never checked to see what library books I brought home. I'm sure she would have had something (critical) to say about some of my choices!


I'm all for learning about different religions/cultures/languages, too, and have read what I've been able to find. I wish we had a class at the university level available in my area, but I've found no such listings. Perhaps our regional churches/synagogues/mosques are resting on their laurels. Or something.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> I'm all for learning about different religions/cultures/languages, too, and have read what I've been able to find. I wish we had a class at the university level available in my area, but I've found no such listings. Perhaps our regional churches/synagogues/mosques are resting on their laurels. Or something.


Have you tried the internet? Here are 2 to get you started.

http://www.aish.com/jl/

http://www.lutheran-resources.org/lutheran_beliefs.htm


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

kneonknitter said:


> Have you tried the internet? Here are 2 to get you started.
> 
> http://www.aish.com/jl/
> 
> http://www.lutheran-resources.org/lutheran_beliefs.htm


I don't think I've missed many of the Christian churches except for some of the nondenominational ones. Thank you for the first reference, though, because I don't know enough regarding the Jewish faiths to feel well informed, and have only a smattering of knowledge regarding Near and Far Eastern religions and Native American beliefs. I need to do more research online and at the library.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> I don't think I've missed many of the Christian churches except for some of the nondenominational ones. Thank you for the first reference, though, because I don't know enough regarding the Jewish faiths to feel well informed, and have only a smattering of knowledge regarding Near and Far Eastern religions and Native American beliefs. I need to do more research online and at the library.


You're welcome. PM me anytime if you want to 'talk'.


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## disgo (Mar 2, 2013)

cagneylauren said:


> As a Christian and a follower of Jesus, I recognize that we, as a nation, are drifting further and further away from God. Without God, we are rudderless, we have lost our steering, our compass. If you read the Bible, Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination". Read Romans 1:26-27; Coriathians 6:19 and even in the first chapter of of the book....God created woman from the rib of man, as man's companion. I can not remain silent.


Then you should have been born and raised a Christian and the teachings of Jesus himself saying "Love Thy Neighbor As Thyself." Did He say to a male if your neighbor is a five year old girl that you should make love to her? Did he say if your neighbor was a female (as your avatar shows) should you not love her. I get the impression you are what is considered an Evangelical with all your Biblical quotations. You are an abomination as you did not stick to the doctrine of the True Church. Lutherans and then Protestants all came before and the Evangelicals were based in New York State where one claimed to be the True Prophet. Do you belong to his congregation?

All the texts you are basing your faith on were written after the crucifixion of Christ and were more politically based on the Roman reign where they too were killing off homosexuals (or suspected mostly) in their brand new arenas to not only sell exorbitant ticket prices but also fill their brand new arenas. It has been proven there were different times and areas of scribes that kept the Written Word alive. Nothing is said in the Ten Commandments on the topic of which you are referring. It in the Creation, God made the Heavens and the Earth and placed upon it living beings. There is no mention that those beings naturally reproduced with some even having both sexual organs--He did not kick them out of the Garden (make them extinct). He then created Man from the soil so no reproduction of any sort--not even the Devil could do that. He created Man in His own image---male. Adam then had no one to relate to since all the other beings did so God in His great wisdom created a clone (from a rib) to keep Adam company--nothing mentioned about fornication or reproduction. Then the Devil decided to step in and made Eve have Apples which Adam ate and all Hell broke loose with God. They were cast out of the Garden and needed to fend for themselves. Even their first borns didn't do so well as you should know so where was there anything mentioned about marriage? There was then a lot of begetting going on afterward with all sorts of inter family "mingling" and begetting going on.

There are some specific sins that relate to this begetting like coveting and adultery and later divorce of which there were never any civil laws sending people to prison for such actions. And look how the Evangelicals have destroyed the Union of Marriage since it strictly says in all the vows "Til Death Us Do Part" I have never been divorced, coveted, or performed adultery so I can be the first to throw a huge boulder. Where did Jesus spend his last night on earth and with whom? Was it with His wives like Mohammad? Did God marry Mary and then lie with her? Why did He need Mary anyway? He can create beings from soil.

Perhaps someday you will see the picture of the Bible and not the individual words as that is what Christ discussed in the Temple where you went last Sunday to worship properly. Oh, you say He is in your heart!!! What about those that have the same thing? Should they be slaughtered in a sacrifice like in Charleston to atone for all our sins against others? Did you remember to make sacrifice as directed in the Bible and then make a prayer shawl from the fleece that your slave maiden spun for you to knit?

By the way you have violated copyright infringement since God and Jesus said nothing about writing Their Word in English. Nothing is mentioned about England at all in the Bible. Even Latin was an infringement from one of His followers without any documentation to show it was okay.


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## disgo (Mar 2, 2013)

crystalrose said:


> Okay, I'm definately going to be stepping on toes here, so get out your Bactine. I totally agree with cagneylauren. Do all of you who are so thrilled about this decision think that that is all this is about? Live and let live? These people have an agenda. The're not going to be happy with letting things be as they are now. Are you all really so blind? They want their way of life to be the norm for EVERYONE wether you're of that persuasion or not! Is this what you want for your children and grandchildren? And before you chime in with'"If my child or grandchild was gay I would totally support them.", let me tell you, they won't have a chance to decide if they were born that way or not, because these people want them to be taught that being gay is the norm practically from the second they are born. How will you feel if one day your heterosexual son or daughter and their spouse want to adopt a baby and they're told, "Sorry, we don't have any babies available for you, because we give preference to gay couples."? Wake up and smell the coffee!!


They did smell the coffee since that is where it came from in the first place--the Middle East. They did have an agenda and called themselves "Followers of Christ" as they believed Jesus was the True Messiah. So not only were they stepping on the Hebrew toes but spitting at the Romans and causing terrorist acts (according to the Romans who were there long before with their established religions). Odd that both of them said the identical thing you just said about "persuasion/subversion" and you call that Christian and want everyone to march lock and step. Are you proposing drone attacks now to replace the gas chambers? Should Congress now pass legislation (since they don't even do that anymore and let others do their nefarious dirty work for them while instantly throwing sticks and stones) to clean out all those of non-Christian persuasion? The Europeans were not happy with the "way things were" and came and stole and plundered to make sure their agendas were met. Should they all go home and clean up the mess they left behind and quit meddling in others affairs, destroying their beliefs, trashing and stealing their sovereign nations and be brought before the world court to pay for their transgressions---that is all right with you???? Talk about a great example--I need to get my offspring to you right away to learn the "normal and acceptable" ways of demeaning, paranoia, denial, isolationism, destruction and war you would have for us all to live in. I say instead we need to put you on a leaky tub with no food or water and send you to the Mediterranean where you can find your place for like minded people. You will be definitely retained in Huge Walls that Donald is funding by his tax exemptions and kick backs and might allow you a tarp to cover yourself with. Don't plan on him coming to your rescue as he has more important things to worry about now.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

missyern said:


> Oh grief. I live in Texas - our state government is full of idiots. They want to ignore the supreme court.


Isn't their latest ploy that the clerks don't have to issue marriage licenses if it goes against their religious beliefs? One clerk commented that even if it does go against her religious beliefs it's her job to issue marriage licenses and she would continue to do so.


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

Thank you, Gordon (Disgo), for your well thought out and well worded micro-essays. :thumbup:


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

Bea 465 said:


> Isn't their latest ploy that the clerks don't have to issue marriage licenses if it goes against their religious beliefs? One clerk commented that even if it does go against her religious beliefs it's her job to issue marriage licenses and she would continue to do so.


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I am just excited couples wants to marry after looking at so many unwed mothers shacking up with the latest love of their lives.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

PaKnitter said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
> 
> I am just excited couples wants to marry after looking at so many unwed mothers shacking up with the latest love of their lives.


What? And loose their welfare benefits!


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

Dutchie1946 said:


> Thank you, Gordon (Disgo), for your well thought out and well worded micro-essays. :thumbup:


 :thumbup:


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

PaKnitter said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
> 
> I am just excited couples wants to marry after looking at so many unwed mothers shacking up with the latest love of their lives.


 :thumbup:


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

ADW55 said:


> Lesson learned, never watch anything interesting and cast on
> at the same time. Only watch dull boring shows or listen
> to music. Great looking sweater. Picture when you finish??


And when you're tired...just put the needles down and go to bed!


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## disgo (Mar 2, 2013)

Dutchie1946 said:


> Thank you, Gordon (Disgo), for your well thought out and well worded micro-essays. :thumbup:


That was only the preamble I am afraid. I can blame it on the excessive heat and air pollution and pushing my deteriorating health while trying to get my A/C working that has never worked since moving in here.

Most do not know my religious background (got myself excommunicated shortly after my forced baptism at the age of 8--nearly drowned in the process). I just brought up the question if the Church claims to be Christian then why during our closed door, first of the month, testimonial service where one started by saying they believed in the True Prophet (founder of the church) and Jesus coming in second place.

Before becoming truly baptized this time I researched every religion out there at that time (long before the Ecumenical Movement of which I took part) and before any money laundering Evangelical Church was even allowed to 
exist (no tax right offs then). And for them to come in like storm troopers trying to get others to conform to their views to keep them prosperous makes only a mockery of the Church. They know that Christ was sent to correct the direction of the Church and even He did not but tried to reform the existing one. For that He was sacrificed.

Can anyone tell me were the mass crucifixions of these Evangelicals are going to take place to support their "beliefs" on marriage. Would Jesus be impressed when He was refused service in their Churches and all the money changing going on. Was that not His first act long before preforming "miracles" on those that were actually blind. Something else for the new Evangelicals to ponder as they have no idea of religious history, how many sects do the Jews have, how many are Christian and how many Islamic and yet we are under the same God????? Abraham was deceived--he really did sacrifice his own son and see what it got him.



kneonknitter said:


> :thumbup:


You are the one to be commended and honored for your personal involvement with the cause.

In true disclosure I do not personally agree with your son's orientation, BUT I would put myself before him in fending off the stoners coming at him and give my measly life for his. I do not believe in abusers and all their various sorts but the same would hold true in their cases as well.

I had to appear before the State's Upper Court with my personal views and left them silent in my wake with my explaining my views and that I would never force others to follow mine--there is the true injustice/hypocrisy!

For those "refusing service due to personal beliefs" being the worst since even medical professionals went into the profession with an oath that says nothing about refusing service due to sexual orientation. I could deny resuscitation for an Evangelical since I do not agree with their agenda/creed/race/sex etc. We are a Civil and Democratic Country of which our illegal immigrant founders introduced in a world at the time that were considered terrorist/rebels. Are we now saying we really didn't mean that in the first place and are wanting to return to our Royal based system--sounds like the Romans. Give up to God that which is His and to Caesar that which is Caesar's. I did not get the email saying God has decided He is tired and wants nothing to do with this whole mess and will be handing over His power to a Council and Legislature. Caesar was not too smart to make himself Emperor so take that warning to live by.


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

disgo said:


> You are the one to be commended and honored for your personal involvement with the cause.
> 
> In true disclosure I do not personally agree with your son's orientation, BUT I would put myself before him in fending off the stoners coming at him and give my measly life for his. I do not believe in abusers and all their various sorts but the same would hold true in their cases as well.
> 
> ...


Where's the standing ovation emoticon??!! Thumbs-up will have to do: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## WendyMargaret (Sep 10, 2014)

My dear friends, you are thinking with your hearts not your logical brains. Not always a bad thing but in this case the Supreme Court failed to convince that marriage between two same sex people is a constitutional right. They made a majority decision based on what they thought the majority populace was ready to accept. Please remember that throughout the world there are millions of folk who find same sex marriage unacceptable including militants Moslems. One more reason to fan the flames. I harbor no ill will to any gays. After winning civil union why marriage? Too many marriages end in painful costly divorce. Society no longer cares if couples don't marry. No stigma, no shunning. I pray that no churches are forced to close because they refuse to marry same sex couples. But I believe this movement will take the next step and work to undermine those who hold to their beliefs. It would be so much better if gays would be content with their victory and not pursue legal action against churches whose doctrine cannot and will not condone same sex marriage. We will soon see.


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## gypsysoul (Jun 14, 2015)

sschimel said:


> Okay, so perhaps I was distracted by the Supreme Court's landmark decision allowing me to marry whom I please but I should know never to start a new sweater late at night. The pattern is the Mount Robson Pullover in the Summer 2015 issue of Interweave Knits and it's knit in fingering weight yarn. The back says to cast on 221 stitches. The stitches are so tiny that to make it easier to count, I placed a marker every 20 stitches. I couldn't understand why it looked so wide until I realized that I counted every group of 20 as a group of 10. So I'd actually cast on 421 stitches. Ooops. But still, the Supreme Court ROCKS!!!!!!!


Yes, the Supreme Court decision was way overdue.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

Dutchie1946 said:


> Where's the standing ovation emoticon??!! Thumbs-up will have to do: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## fdb123 (Mar 30, 2012)

WendyMargaret said:


> My dear friends, you are thinking with your hearts not your logical brains. Not always a bad thing but in this case the Supreme Court failed to convince that marriage between two same sex people is a constitutional right. They made a majority decision based on what they thought the majority populace was ready to accept. Please remember that throughout the world there are millions of folk who find same sex marriage unacceptable including militants Moslems. One more reason to fan the flames. I harbor no ill will to any gays. After winning civil union why marriage? Too many marriages end in painful costly divorce. Society no longer cares if couples don't marry. No stigma, no shunning. I pray that no churches are forced to close because they refuse to marry same sex couples. But I believe this movement will take the next step and work to undermine those who hold to their beliefs. It would be so much better if gays would be content with their victory and not pursue legal action against churches whose doctrine cannot and will not condone same sex marriage. We will soon see.


The five majority members evidently did find a constitutional basis for marriage being available to all CONSENTING ADULTS.
How on earth are we going to "close churches"? Religious freedom is guaranteed in the constitution. Pastors can't be forced to marry those they don't wish, just as a Catholic priest can't be forced to marry non-Catholics, or those who are divorced. Protestant pastors can't be forced to marry those not of their congregation or even members whom they feel are not appropriate. NO ONE IS ASKING THEM TO!! NO MINISTER CAN BE REQUIRED TO MARRY ANYONE THEY DON'T WISH TO. I KNOW THIS BECAUSE I"M MARRIED TO A FORMER ORDAINED MINISTER!! No one, except possibly some members of their own congregations, is asking them too!!

The conflict is over what individuals running a business or working for a business can do when asked to provide a service to people they disagree with due to religious beliefs. In the USA when my rights bump up against your rights there is a need to decide which side prevails. An example is a pharmacist who doesn't want to dispense medications to abort a fetus vs the legal right of a customer to obtain those medications. Does a small business owned by one person or a family have different right and obligations than a business that is incorporated. There are many such questions and they can be resolved, though not to the complete satisfaction of either side.

Why marriage? Because many of us BELIEVE IN MARRIAGE. The religious right does not own the concept or practice of marriage. Why don't I just curtsy and take what's given to me? Because the life I share with my partner is as valid and holy as anyone else's. The rights and privileges of legal marriage should be extended to our unions as much as yours.

I know you don't intend to be insulting but to be told to take my plate of leftovers and be content is what you are suggesting. That's what African-Americans were told under "separate but equal". I don't cover my head so as not to upset militants and I don't accept second best just to not rock any boats.


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

fdb123 said:


> ... I know you don't intend to be insulting, but to be told to take my plate of leftovers and be content is what you are suggesting. That's what African-Americans were told under "separate but equal". I don't cover my head so as not to upset militants, and I don't accept second best just to not rock any boats.


 :thumbup:


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## MissMeeKaren (May 27, 2015)

Bea 465 said:


> What? And loose their welfare benefits!


Can you blame them? Do you think they're getting rich on welfare? Any that I've known is just eking by, by the skin of her teeth.

And why single out single moms? Do you realize that for every single mom on welfare there is at least one deadbeat dad who is failing his children and society by his failure to pay child support or make the relationship with the child's mother functional?

At least the mothers you scorn haven't abandoned their children, unlike the deadbeats you are silent about.

*****
Back to the topic at hand~~

BUMMER on the mis-counted stitches! YAY on the SCOTUS decision. BUMMER that it wasn't unanimous but no real surprise, either.


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## MissMeeKaren (May 27, 2015)

Dutchie1946 said:


> Thank you, Gordon (Disgo), for your well thought out and well worded micro-essays. :thumbup:


I agree, well thought out and articulated, even if I disagree on some micro points.

*****
To the person who asked: "After winning civil union why marriage?"

Would YOU be satisfied with a civil union, or did you get married when you decided to marry (assuming you have married at some point in your life)? Would YOU be satisfied with anything less than? Also, may I ask when you decided to be heterosexual?


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

MissMeeKaren said:


> ... Also, may I ask when you decided to be heterosexual?


Good one!!! :thumbup:

Of course, your point is totally lost on those whose heads are willfully buried in the sand.

Choice. There's been a lot said about 'choices' of late.

Had I had any choice in the matter, would I have _chosen_ to be a female? 
Not a chance! 
Males get better pay for the same work. 
Males don't get put down for being tall or big-footed. 
Males don't get in half as much trouble (with parents, teachers, etc.) for striking back when attacked.
Had I been a boy, my father and I might have been closer.
Had I been a boy, my aunt's husband might not have molested me.

But I had no more chance of choosing my gender than anyone has over choosing what's now call 'sexual orientation' does over which way they lean. Sadly, it'll probably be another century or so before the majority of the population accept that fact.  How long was it between the legal proclamation that African-Americans were citizens and desegregation of public institutions? And _that_ is still not viscerally accepted by a too large slice of the populace.


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Good one!!! :thumbup:
> 
> Of course, your point is totally lost on those whose heads are willfully buried in the sand.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

fdb123 said:


> The five majority members evidently did find a constitutional basis for marriage being available to all CONSENTING ADULTS.
> How on earth are we going to "close churches"? Religious freedom is guaranteed in the constitution. Pastors can't be forced to marry those they don't wish, just as a Catholic priest can't be forced to marry non-Catholics, or those who are divorced. Protestant pastors can't be forced to marry those not of their congregation or even members whom they feel are not appropriate. NO ONE IS ASKING THEM TO!! NO MINISTER CAN BE REQUIRED TO MARRY ANYONE THEY DON'T WISH TO. I KNOW THIS BECAUSE I"M MARRIED TO A FORMER ORDAINED MINISTER!! No one, except possibly some members of their own congregations, is asking them too!!
> 
> The conflict is over what individuals running a business or working for a business can do when asked to provide a service to people they disagree with due to religious beliefs. In the USA when my rights bump up against your rights there is a need to decide which side prevails. An example is a pharmacist who doesn't want to dispense medications to abort a fetus vs the legal right of a customer to obtain those medications. Does a small business owned by one person or a family have different right and obligations than a business that is incorporated. There are many such questions and they can be resolved, though not to the complete satisfaction of either side.
> ...


I couldn't agree more with what you've said. The saddest part of all of this for me is the endless lies coming from conservative "religious" people. They don't even notice how many people they've driven away with their "holy" lies and abuse. I have regretfully come to the conclusion that they are so anxiety ridden and fearful of life in spite of their "comforting" religion, that they continue to spread the lies more and more loudly (that makes them true, you see) in an attempt to make us all as miserable as they seem to be. Happy people don't go around screaming at the top of their lungs that they are the only right way to be. Contented people don't constantly stir the pot to make others feel of less worth than they are. Yet they do these things on a regular basis and assume that because they want us all to be exactly the same as they are, we have the same goals in mind for them. We don't, it just somehow makes them feel better to believe we do and constantly make up bizarre stories to back themselves up. I don't, of course, speak for everyone, even those others who are like-minded on many issues. I think it's called respect and belief in the possibility of decency in others who aren't carbon copies of ourselves. That's really hard to do in the face of the constant abusive charges of the Christian Right.

I readily admit that I have totally lost respect for their message because it's warped and self-serving (the endless we're right-you're wrong, we're going to heaven-you're going to hell, etc., etc.). They've fashioned their own "God" by picking and choosing for the whole world which parts of the Bible are law and which parts are ignored. Perhaps some day they will pay for that, perhaps not, but according to their religion, these kinds of choices in judging and dictating to others are way off base. I think they have become insensitive to their fellow human beings to the point that no thought is given to whether they're being insulting or not. I do not call that living in reality. I have begun to wonder if the falling away from organized religion that is so rapidly increasing, and that they blame on LGBT people or any others who are not in their image, isn't indeed truly because of their own attitudes toward these others, and whether this isn't the beginning of the demise of the importance and values of Christianity in particular.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Good one!!! :thumbup:
> 
> Of course, your point is totally lost on those whose heads are willfully buried in the sand.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup:


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

fdb123 said:


> The five majority members evidently did find a constitutional basis for marriage being available to all CONSENTING ADULTS.
> How on earth are we going to "close churches"? Religious freedom is guaranteed in the constitution. Pastors can't be forced to marry those they don't wish, just as a Catholic priest can't be forced to marry non-Catholics, or those who are divorced. Protestant pastors can't be forced to marry those not of their congregation or even members whom they feel are not appropriate. NO ONE IS ASKING THEM TO!! NO MINISTER CAN BE REQUIRED TO MARRY ANYONE THEY DON'T WISH TO. I KNOW THIS BECAUSE I"M MARRIED TO A FORMER ORDAINED MINISTER!! No one, except possibly some members of their own congregations, is asking them too!!
> 
> The conflict is over what individuals running a business or working for a business can do when asked to provide a service to people they disagree with due to religious beliefs. In the USA when my rights bump up against your rights there is a need to decide which side prevails. An example is a pharmacist who doesn't want to dispense medications to abort a fetus vs the legal right of a customer to obtain those medications. Does a small business owned by one person or a family have different right and obligations than a business that is incorporated. There are many such questions and they can be resolved, though not to the complete satisfaction of either side.
> ...


 :thumbup:


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

Jessica-Jean :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

Disgo - DEFINITELY A STANDING OVATION as Jessica-Jean stated.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

MissMeeKaren said:


> Can you blame them? Do you think they're getting rich on welfare? Any that I've known is just eking by, by the skin of her teeth.
> 
> And why single out single moms? Do you realize that for every single mom on welfare there is at least one deadbeat dad who is failing his children and society by his failure to pay child support or make the relationship with the child's mother functional?
> 
> ...


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Bea 465 said:


> ... Deadbeat dads should have a vasectomy -- that would eliminate that problem.


Involuntary and court-ordered!!


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Involuntary and court-ordered!!


If only it were that simple, but the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) would have a cow. But we can dream.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Bea 465 said:


> If only it were that simple, but the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) would have a cow. But we can dream.


Agreed!


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## MissMeeKaren (May 27, 2015)

Bea 465 said:


> No I don't think they're getting rich on welfare. But on the other hand why do they continue to have children out of wedlock with men who they know will not accept responsibility for their actions. A different father for each of her children, another child brought up in poverty because momma couldn't or wouldn't use or demand the man use birth control. I know there are a lot of women on welfare who are trapped, but not all of them think that. Deadbeat dads should have a vasectomy -- that would eliminate that problem.


I hear you but let's be realistic here. It's not the moms actively choosing to get pregnant and no birth control is perfect. It's the loser dude who thinks its somehow manly to spread his seed far and wide. And does so. I think the focus needs to shift to these deadbeats. It's easy to blame the women but I think that's really just going after the low hanging fruit. I do not believe that the women 'know' they have a deadbeat on their hands. Not emotionally, anyway. Overall I think it's a problem of attitude. For the deadbeats, it's 'pride' to have all these little mini-me's out there. For the women, childrearing is a burden they resign themselves to dealing with, and often times very lovingly and well. They certainly do a better job of stepping up to the plate overall, and so I think it's unfair to attack them when their hands are full just trying to keep up but not the deadbeat dude whose attitude is just the opposite.

The vasectomies? Never happen. Not until MEN start telling BOYS and young men what it means to be a REAL man. That's who they're out to impress, and that's who they'll listen to. Not the women (obviously).

MEN have to step up and do a better job of training future MEN.

That alone would go a long way toward reducing not just the welfare rolls but domestic violence also.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

MissMeeKaren said:


> I hear you but let's be realistic here. It's not the moms actively choosing to get pregnant and no birth control is perfect. It's the loser dude who thinks its somehow manly to spread his seed far and wide. And does so. I think the focus needs to shift to these deadbeats. It's easy to blame the women but I think that's really just going after the low hanging fruit. I do not believe that the women 'know' they have a deadbeat on their hands. Not emotionally, anyway. Overall I think it's a problem of attitude. For the deadbeats, it's 'pride' to have all these little mini-me's out there. For the women, childrearing is a burden they resign themselves to dealing with, and often times very lovingly and well. They certainly do a better job of stepping up to the plate overall, and so I think it's unfair to attack them when their hands are full just trying to keep up but not the deadbeat dude whose attitude is just the opposite.
> 
> The vasectomies? Never happen. Not until MEN start telling BOYS and young men what it means to be a REAL man. That's who they're out to impress, and that's who they'll listen to. Not the women (obviously).
> 
> ...


But it's so difficult to break time-honored traditions, like blaming the women. It's bad enough when the "men" do it. I've never understood why women would do it, too, but that's certainly what I grew up with and have continued to see.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

MissMeeKaren said:


> The vasectomies? Never happen. Not until MEN start telling BOYS and young men what it means to be a REAL man. That's who they're out to impress, and that's who they'll listen to. Not the women (obviously).
> 
> MEN have to step up and do a better job of training future MEN.
> 
> That alone would go a long way toward reducing not just the welfare rolls but domestic violence also.


That would require a whole generation of men to step up to the bar and face their responsibilities. I don't see that happening in what remains of my lifetime.


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## Dutchie1946 (Jun 19, 2012)

MissMeeKaren said:


> ...The vasectomies? Never happen. Not until MEN start telling BOYS and young men what it means to be a REAL man. That's who they're out to impress, and that's who they'll listen to. Not the women (obviously).
> 
> MEN have to step up and do a better job of training future MEN.
> 
> That alone would go a long way toward reducing not just the welfare rolls but domestic violence also.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

But here we're preaching to the choir; I sincerely doubt any of those deadbeats are on KP.


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## knitpick1 (Dec 13, 2014)

I'm coming in late on this conversation but in my way of thinking the SCOTUS was wrong. Their job isn't to make the laws but that's just what they did. So they acted against the Constitution. Congress is the one that is suppose to make the laws, Not the SCOTUS. As far as the gay and lesbian population is concerned it isn't any skin off my nose if they want to have that sexual orientation as long as it doesn't interfere with my life. But I don't understand why they feel the need to constantly force their way of life down everyone's throat. So you're gay- so what! Now just step aside and let me pass. Whatever anyone's sexual preference or life in general is, we will all have to answer to a higher court someday.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

knitpick1 said:


> I'm coming in late on this conversation but in my way of thinking the SCOTUS was wrong. Their job isn't to make the laws but that's just what they did. So they acted against the Constitution. Congress is the one that is suppose to make the laws, Not the SCOTUS. As far as the gay and lesbian population is concerned it isn't any skin off my nose if they want to have that sexual orientation as long as it doesn't interfere with my life. But I don't understand why they feel the need to constantly force their way of life down everyone's throat. So you're gay- so what! Now just step aside and let me pass. Whatever anyone's sexual preference or life in general is, we will all have to answer to a higher court someday.


I'm always a little mind-boggled when I hear these types of comments. How many LGBT people in your lifetime have tried to force anything down your personal throat? Having spent many hours over many years with a local group of LGBT people to help them cope with the cruelty of society, I don't quite understand why those of us who worked with them never had one of them step out of line in any manner, let alone sexually. What makes you think they would choose an "orientation" that has caused countless rejections, discriminations, and suicides? When did you decide your preference/orientation was to be straight and how much thought did you put into that decision? At what age?

Your final sentence is extremely judgmental even though you say so what? So what indeed. I'm the mother of a deceased gay man. We knew he was probably gay when he was an infant because no female could comfort him until he got older. What will you do when your "higher court" decides you aren't exactly what it had in mind with your judgmental point of view, since judgment is supposedly reserved for the higher court to make? I'd say someone who knows as little as you has sold you a bill of goods on the subject and you have swallowed it hook, line, and sinker, and that you, also, will have to answer for that someday in your higher court.


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## knitpick1 (Dec 13, 2014)

I worked with a young man who was gay and I was one of many who were so sick and tired of hearing about his sexual exploits. We couldn't even sit at the picnic table and eat our lunch without him "joining" us and flapping his gums about the date he had or the date he was planning. We finally told him we weren't really interested in hearing about his open book life. He said we were discriminating against him because he was gay. I told him his life was his business like my life is my business and I didn't make mine available for all to hear whether they wanted to or not so why was he doing it. I just made up my mind that I wasn't going to cut my lunch break short anymore because of him. Like I said, I don't care as long as it doesn't interfere with my life. Well it WAS interfering! I wasn't being judgmental in my comment. You only took it as so because I feel you have a chip on your shoulder. But don't use me as your whipping post.


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## Shannon123 (Mar 9, 2012)

knitpick1 said:


> I worked with a young man who was gay and I was one of many who were so sick and tired of hearing about his sexual exploits. We couldn't even sit at the picnic table and eat our lunch without him "joining" us and flapping his gums about the date he had or the date he was planning. We finally told him we weren't really interested in hearing about his open book life. He said we were discriminating against him because he was gay. I told him his life was his business like my life is my business and I didn't make mine available for all to hear whether they wanted to or not so why was he doing it. I just made up my mind that I wasn't going to cut my lunch break short anymore because of him. Like I said, I don't care as long as it doesn't interfere with my life. Well it WAS interfering! I wasn't being judgmental in my comment. You only took it as so because I feel you have a chip on your shoulder. But don't use me as your whipping post.


And you think that only applies to gay men? We have a woman in our golf league who lost her husband tragically years ago, they'd been together since high school. She is now going through her "experimentation" years at 50+ years old and loves to tell anyone, and I mean any of us of her exploits and booty calls. No one that I know likes to hear about it --she is straight!!!!!

Your example is of one individual yet you KNOW that all of them are like this one person? And you spew your hatred of the entire LGBT community because of this one person?

You are dreadful!


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## fdb123 (Mar 30, 2012)

knitpick1 said:


> I worked with a young man who was gay and I was one of many who were so sick and tired of hearing about his sexual exploits. We couldn't even sit at the picnic table and eat our lunch without him "joining" us and flapping his gums about the date he had or the date he was planning. We finally told him we weren't really interested in hearing about his open book life. He said we were discriminating against him because he was gay. I told him his life was his business like my life is my business and I didn't make mine available for all to hear whether they wanted to or not so why was he doing it. I just made up my mind that I wasn't going to cut my lunch break short anymore because of him. Like I said, I don't care as long as it doesn't interfere with my life. Well it WAS interfering! I wasn't being judgmental in my comment. You only took it as so because I feel you have a chip on your shoulder. But don't use me as your whipping post.


I don't know if this man was way out of line or not but I would like you to consider that talking about a date, holding hands in public, being excited about meeting a new someone, sharing a romantic yet chaste kiss on a beach, and many other widely accepted behaviors are only considered "shoving it down your throat" when done by same sex couples. For us, in some parts of the world, including the USA, it can set you up for a good beating or even just an unkind remark letting you know your life has to be kept hidden. You seem to think that knowledge that we exist and have lives much like yours is what's "interfering" with your life. I'm really tired of having to pretend that those like you are so fragile that everything from your lunch to your marriage is endangered by my doing all the ordinary things everyone else does.


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## knitpick1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Aside from what you think of me I have yet to see straight people make such a show of themselves, parading and making the statement that they are straight. They don't feel they have to draw attention to themselves. They don't have their own flag. They don't have their Organization of Straight People. There's just a lot of unnecessary hoopla with the gays. And again, I really don't care how you feel about me. And that's that.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

knitpick1 said:


> I worked with a young man who was gay and I was one of many who were so sick and tired of hearing about his sexual exploits. We couldn't even sit at the picnic table and eat our lunch without him "joining" us and flapping his gums about the date he had or the date he was planning. We finally told him we weren't really interested in hearing about his open book life. He said we were discriminating against him because he was gay. I told him his life was his business like my life is my business and I didn't make mine available for all to hear whether they wanted to or not so why was he doing it. I just made up my mind that I wasn't going to cut my lunch break short anymore because of him. Like I said, I don't care as long as it doesn't interfere with my life. Well it WAS interfering! I wasn't being judgmental in my comment. You only took it as so because I feel you have a chip on your shoulder. But don't use me as your whipping post.


When you take it upon yourself to come into a lengthy thread such as this one and take a minority (in this thread) point of view, I'd say you are the one with the chip on your shoulder. If you had read the thread in its entirety, you would have known that there are many here who are members of the LGBT community or parents of those who are, so I'm fairly certain you knew exactly what you were doing by dropping in with your late comments. I don't use people as whipping posts, but I don't allow them to make a doormat of me, either. In 76 years of living, I have never heard your veiled threat of "answering for" as anything other than a judgment of somebody. Go ahead and explain how it isn't exactly that.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

fdb123 said:


> I don't know if this man was way out of line or not but I would like you to consider that talking about a date, holding hands in public, being excited about meeting a new someone, sharing a romantic yet chaste kiss on a beach, and many other widely accepted behaviors are only considered "shoving it down your throat" when done by same sex couples. For us, in some parts of the world, including the USA, it can set you up for a good beating or even just an unkind remark letting you know your life has to be kept hidden. You seem to think that knowledge that we exist and have lives much like yours is what's "interfering" with your life. I'm really tired of having to pretend that those like you are so fragile that everything from your lunch to your marriage is endangered by my doing all the ordinary things everyone else does.


Once again, I agree with every word. I'm so pleased to see someone like you here who knows how to handle yourself directly and wisely. I've seen way too many people, LGBT and straight, who slink off into corners to hide when confrontational people attack; I used to be a slinker when I was younger. Then I learned to overcome fears and use my brain, better late than never ;~).

EDIT: One thing I've experienced repeatedly with prejudiced hetero's is a marked fear of the unknown and a strong need to feel superior and privileged. I have not yet found an effective way to hold the mirror so they can see how it appears to those of us who aren't of that mindset. It isn't pretty.....


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## fdb123 (Mar 30, 2012)

knitpick1 said:


> Aside from what you think of me I have yet to see straight people make such a show of themselves, parading and making the statement that they are straight. They don't feel they have to draw attention to themselves. They don't have their own flag. They don't have their Organization of Straight People. There's just a lot of unnecessary hoopla with the gays. And again, I really don't care how you feel about me. And that's that.


You don't have to have any hoopla. You run the world. Any minority group has to make itself noticed in order to effect change. Would segregation have ended when it did if black people had not made a lot of noise? Would women have gotten the vote or gotten accepted into upper echelon jobs without protesting? It evidently makes you uncomfortable. I understand that. Change makes us all uncomfortable. I don't march,I don't wave flags but I do make appropriate comments about my life that don't hide the fact I'm married to a woman. It's not a matter of what I think of you. You're entitled to your opinion. I'm expressing mine and offering you a chance to consider a different viewpoint, to walk in someone else's shoes.


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## knitpick1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Take a laxative dear and get rid of some of your spite. I'm 68 yrs. old and what I said was an old saying about answering to a higher court. I wasn't the first to say it and I won't be the last. The whole issue has religion in the fore front whether some think it's right or wrong. I never took a stand on either. You just assumed what you wanted. But I can see some of you are in attack mode and doing your own rioting and burning up your computers so it doesn't really make any difference what I say. It's easy to see the only opinions allowed are the ones that you already have.


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## fdb123 (Mar 30, 2012)

SamKewel, thank you for your kind words. I have appreciated your comments on this thread and especially the courage to share so much of yourself with us.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

knitpick1 said:


> Take a laxative dear and get rid of some of your spite. I'm 68 yrs. old and what I said was an old saying about answering to a higher court. I wasn't the first to say it and I won't be the last. The whole issue has religion in the fore front whether some think it's right or wrong. I never took a stand on either. You just assumed what you wanted. But I can see some of you are in attack mode and doing your own rioting and burning up your computers so it doesn't really make any difference what I say. It's easy to see the only opinions allowed are the ones that you already have.


Oh, now it's victim time? Why am I not surprised? How do you come to the conclusion that your opinions have not been allowed? Has anyone threatened you? Have you been subjected to anything other than what you were baiting for? I don't think so.

I'm aware it's an old saying, but that's totally beside the fact that it's a veiled threat. Perhaps you meant, "If you don't straighten up and fly right according to my views, the boogie man will get you." It doesn't change what it is whether it's couched in those terms or religious terms or your terms of "higher court," whatever that is. There's another old saying, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." I believe that means that you don't enter a thread where you are already aware of the predominant feelings and challenge them unless you're baiting and stirring the pot. What's your opinion on that?


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## knitpick1 (Dec 13, 2014)

My opinion is that I don't care to hear anymore of your angry ranting and raving. Goodbye.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

knitpick1 said:


> My opinion is that I don't care to hear anymore of your angry ranting and raving. Goodbye.


It always leaves me amazed when people go out of their way to introduce dissent where they know it's likely not going to be received with open arms and then stomp off in a snit. I don't see anyone else here making a big deal of leaving the thread. It's kind of like waving your own kind of banner and having your own parade, isn't it? I suspect you're a good deal more angry than I, I'm only annoyed and puzzled.....


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

knitpick1 said:


> Aside from what you think of me I have yet to see straight people make such a show of themselves, parading and making ...


They may not state verbally anything about their heterosexuality, but _some_ have no reluctance at all about 'making out' on a public beach, in alleys, in public parks ... and I don't mean only under cover of darkness. It might be a tad less objectionable in the dark, but it's decidedly uncalled for in the light of day in public. If such behaviour isn't making a show of themselves, let me know just _what_ it is, please.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

And how many times have hetero couples been told to "get a room" because of their public displays.


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## patringo (Feb 11, 2014)

gay, straight, asexual makes no difference. they are all just people. there are smart people and dumb people. outspoken or buttoned up; still just people. sexual persuasion does not determine these things. how we react to their actions is colored by our own perceptions and prejudices.


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## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

patringo said:


> gay, straight, asexual makes no difference. they are all just people. there are smart people and dumb people. outspoken or buttoned up; still just people. sexual persuasion does not determine these things. how we react to their actions is colored by our own perceptions and prejudices.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Bea 465 said:


> And how many times have hetero couples been told to "get a room" because of their public displays.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

patringo said:


> gay, straight, asexual makes no difference. they are all just people. there are smart people and dumb people. outspoken or buttoned up; still just people. sexual persuasion does not determine these things. how we react to their actions is colored by our own perceptions and prejudices.


Would that we all thought like this...what a different world it would be!!! Perhaps no more "us" versus "them"?


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## WICKEDZELDA (Jan 18, 2015)

Yah!!! About dang time! On, and at least, if you want to knit in the round, you have a good start.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Dutchie1946 said:


> Thank you, Gordon (Disgo), for your well thought out and well worded micro-essays. :thumbup:


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## charliesaunt (Apr 22, 2011)

At least you caught it early on. I had my husband do some addition for me and didn't question it even though it seemed too large.....4" later....I frogged when I saw I was almost through a skein of 120 yards.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

I know how you feel! Managed to knit a sweater w/ 2 necks. My teacher asked me 'how I did it.' Didn't have a good answer but we got a good laugh out of it. :lol:


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## maggie20736 (Jun 9, 2015)

I agree, let's hope this puts an end to each state making separate laws on same sex marriage. I think everyone should be allowed to marry the person they love. I don't know any guys who knit!


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

maggie20736 said:


> ... *I don't know any guys who knit!*


If you hang out on KP long enough, you'll find there are at least a dozen; there may be more who just don't mention their gender. Knitting is an equal opportunity obsession!


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

maggie20736 said:


> I agree, let's hope this puts an end to each state making separate laws on same sex marriage. I think everyone should be allowed to marry the person they love. I don't know any guys who knit!


My DH is a straight knitter and crocheter, our son was a gay crocheter.


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## knitpick1 (Dec 13, 2014)

I have to agree with you on that JJ. I don't like to see such public displays of affection either. I think it makes people look cheap, whether it's two different genders or two of the same gender. I also think, "get a room". It's nice to think there is so much love in the world and holding hands is pretty tame and I think that's nice, but kissing and making a public display isn't in good taste. It's uncouth to say the least. What I meant by making such a public statement about being gay is the parades I've seen where people dress up in garish clothes with their hair and faces all painted up like clowns and carrying signs. It's like Mardi Gras, and dancing around like idiots. Is that the kind of message they want to send? That's not how ordinary citizens look either gay or straight. That kind of display in order to put a point across is just stupid and it has the opposite effect on people. I have more respect for people if they are just down to earth. I was around a gay man who was an uncle of a friend of mine. He was nice and intelligent the same as anyone else. She told us before he arrived that he was gay and I said, "so what, does he have horns or something?" She was having a pool party and she said he shaves his legs. I said, "Well I don't think that's a big thing, at least I know I'll be safe around him" There was a guy who was a Mason in my husbands lodge who wore liquid makeup, eye shadow and mascara. Nobody said anything but they all thought he was pretty much a joke. But I guess he was a valuable member and everyone seemed to like him despite of his appearance.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

knitpick1 said:


> I have to agree with you on that JJ. I don't like to see such public displays of affection either. I think it makes people look cheap, whether it's two different genders or two of the same gender. I also think, "get a room". It's nice to think there is so much love in the world and holding hands is pretty tame and I think that's nice, but kissing and making a public display isn't in good taste. It's uncouth to say the least. What I meant by making such a public statement about being gay is the parades I've seen where people dress up in garish clothes with their hair and faces all painted up like clowns and carrying signs. It's like Mardi Gras, and dancing around like idiots. Is that the kind of message they want to send? That's not how ordinary citizens look either gay or straight. That kind of display in order to put a point across is just stupid and it has the opposite effect on people. I have more respect for people if they are just down to earth. I was around a gay man who was an uncle of a friend of mine. He was nice and intelligent the same as anyone else. She told us before he arrived that he was gay and I said, "so what, does he have horns or something?" She was having a pool party and she said he shaves his legs. I said, "Well I don't think that's a big thing, at least I know I'll be safe around him" There was a guy who was a Mason in my husbands lodge who wore liquid makeup, eye shadow and mascara. Nobody said anything but they all thought he was pretty much a joke. But I guess he was a valuable member and everyone seemed to like him despite of his appearance.


Having lived through all the gay demonstrations both up close and from a good distance (geographically) with my gay son and his long time partner, I have a different perspective. I'm sure there are many who wish the LGBT community members had stayed in the closet forever, but any time any group of people is marginalized, rejected, and made a target of, they will eventually rebel against that kind of treatment, as well they should. If it takes in-your-face extremism to bring the issues out into the open, then so be it. It worked, didn't it, after everything else had been tried and failed? No one was particularly supposed to have liked it..... And that, my friends, was the gay agenda.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> Having lived through all the gay demonstrations both up close and from a good distance (geographically) with my gay son and his long time partner, I have a different perspective. I'm sure there are many who wish the LGBT community members had stayed in the closet forever, but any time any group of people is marginalized, rejected, and made a target of, they will eventually rebel against that kind of treatment, as well they should. If it takes in-your-face extremism to bring the issues out into the open, then so be it. It worked, didn't it, after everything else had been tried and failed? No one was particularly supposed to have liked it..... And that, my friends, was the gay agenda.


Thank you Sam for the explanation. I knew the first gay parade was in San Francisco in the early 70's with a few participants and an audience in the 1000's. It's grown from there and is now an international event. But I didn't know why.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Bea 465 said:


> Thank you Sam for the explanation. I knew the first gay parade was in San Francisco in the early 70's with a few participants and an audience in the 1000's. It's grown from there and is now an international event. But I didn't know why.


Ditto for me!


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## fdb123 (Mar 30, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> I'm sure there are many who wish the LGBT community members had stayed in the closet forever, but any time any group of people is marginalized, rejected, and made a target of, they will eventually rebel against that kind of treatment, as well they should. If it takes in-your-face extremism to bring the issues out into the open, then so be it.


Well said. No noise, no change, whether that takes the form of Boston Tea Parties, suffragette protests, Ghandi's challenge to the British with the salt workers, or Black America's responses to brutal treatment, or gay pride parades. The first stage is always to bring the issue to the front, to make people aware of the injustice. Unfortunately, reasoned discourse doesn't seem to do the job. It isn't until we're made uncomfortable in some way that change occurs. In the instances above, many were peaceful but the responses were violent. Homosexuals chose to be outrageous, to say in a nonviolent way we are here, and far from staying in the closet, we're going to be as in your face as possible. Besides, who doesn't love a parade. In a town near me some people dress up as chickens for the annual chicken parade!


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## nankat (Oct 17, 2012)

I agree...God Bless America to make room for parades, protests, parties and change.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Bea 465 said:


> Thank you Sam for the explanation. I knew the first gay parade was in San Francisco in the early 70's with a few participants and an audience in the 1000's. It's grown from there and is now an international event. But I didn't know why.


I suspect that down the road a ways, the pendulum will swing back and the in-your-face behaviors will cool down, but it may take quite awhile, depending upon how people adjust to the "new" reality. I also suspect that the LGBT communities may be slow to forget what they've been through.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> I suspect that down the road a ways, the pendulum will swing back and the in-your-face behaviors will cool down, but it may take quite awhile, depending upon how people adjust to the "new" reality. I also suspect that the LGBT communities may be slow to forget what they've been through.


Unlike other 'communities', the LGBT communities are renewed from outside sources, not from within. That means that each person who joins does so with a fresh background of having been teased, bullied, etc. Yes, the parades will continue - likely forever. But that's not bad, as said, everyone loves a parade. Any excuse for a parade is a good one!


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## WendyMargaret (Sep 10, 2014)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Unlike other 'communities', the LGBT communities are renewed from outside sources, not from within. That means that each person who joins does so with a fresh background of having been teased, bullied, etc. Yes, the parades will continue - likely forever. But that's not bad, as said, everyone loves a parade. Any excuse for a parade is a good one!


Don't want to rain on your parade but your statement "Any excuse for a parade is a good one." Is not true. Think of the German Army goosestepping down the streets of Berlin under the proud eyes of Hitler.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

WendyMargaret said:


> Don't want to rain on your parade but your statement "Any excuse for a parade is a good one." Is not true. Think of the German Army goosestepping down the streets of Berlin under the proud eyes of Hitler.


OK. But those weren't _exactly_ unscripted spontaneous popular parades.


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## barbarafletcher (Apr 2, 2012)

I know how you feel..when you finish a project it's tempting to start the next even though it's late...we avid knitters just can't relax...it must have been awful casting on all them stitches...&#128548;


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## WendyMargaret (Sep 10, 2014)

Jessica-Jean said:


> OK. But those weren't _exactly_ unscripted spontaneous popular parades.


I would not take my grandchildren to view a gay parade. The flamboyant acting out would be so inappropriate for little eyes.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

WendyMargaret said:


> I would not take my grandchildren to view a gay parade. The flamboyant acting out would be so inappropriate for little eyes.


No one suggested you do. There are a lot of parades that aren't suitable for children - two I can think of are the Ku Klux Klan parades that were held in the South many years ago, or the Mardi Gras parades where a lot of nudity from the drunken crowds can be observed and the scantily clad float participants. Also, I don't equate military parades with gay pride parades.


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## WendyMargaret (Sep 10, 2014)

Bea 465 said:


> No one suggested you do. There are a lot of parades that aren't suitable for children - two I can think of are the Ku Klux Klan parades that were held in the South many years ago, or the Mardi Gras parades where a lot of nudity from the drunken crowds can be observed and the scantily clad float participants. Also, I don't equate military parades with gay pride parades.


I agree. No one would want to view a klutz Klum Klang ( hah...spell check made a funny joke) parade. Parades are generally about pride. Alumni parades, memorial and independence day parades and in some communities religious parades. All are fine for everyone. With pride should be dignity.


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