# Things are heating up in the world



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

http://www.9news.com.au/World/2014/08/30/19/39/Saudi-king-warns-West-will-be-next-terrorism-target

When the King of Saudi Arabia issues a warning to the west about encroaching terrorism then isn't it time for the west to galvanize and end this 'cancer' calling itself ISIS before it's too late?

I remember seeing a clip of Bin Laden on the news about 2 years before 9/11 where he warned that there would be a massive strike against the west, never before seen in any war (words to that effect). I felt fearful then. I feel fearful now.

Thoughts?


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## kathy320 (Jul 29, 2011)

It's a very scary time, for sure. If I knew a solution, I'd run for office. My life has taught me that prayer changes things, but not necessarily on my timetable. I will continue to pray, and to hope that the World's leaders be granted wisdom.


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## knitnanny (Feb 28, 2012)

Causing fear around the world is what terrorists do and we cannot succumb to that. The West supported Bin Laden when Russia invaded Afghanistan so we have to be careful who we label as friends or foe. Invading countries to promote democracy doesn't work either. Innocent people end up getting killed in the thousands to stop the few. We have to find another way...


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## martina (Jun 24, 2012)

Yes, it is getting scary. The terror level here is the second highest, but we can only pray that the world leaders do a good job.


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## joycevv (Oct 13, 2011)

Cancer is a good analogy for this spread of fanatical extremism. But, unfortunately, we haven't come up with a cure for cancer, have we? Good people of all faiths have to come together, and not just the west "galvanizing".


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## vershi (Nov 25, 2012)

knitnanny said:


> Causing fear around the world is what terrorists do and we cannot succumb to that. The West supported Bin Laden when Russia invaded Afghanistan so we have to be careful who we label as friends or foe. Invading countries to promote democracy doesn't work either. Innocent people end up getting killed in the thousands to stop the few. We have to find another way...


I agree :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## nanaof3 (Sep 17, 2011)

knitnanny said:


> Causing fear around the world is what terrorists do and we cannot succumb to that. The West supported Bin Laden when Russia invaded Afghanistan so we have to be careful who we label as friends or foe. Invading countries to promote democracy doesn't work either. Innocent people end up getting killed in the thousands to stop the few. We have to find another way...


Agree!!!


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## gigi 722 (Oct 25, 2011)

I,too, am fearful. Our porous borders encourage all to enter. Terrorists are no exception. Chaos seems to reign all over the globe. Appeasement and containment appear to be our government's current policy(?). Personally I doubt that strategy. Pray for peace,prepare for war.


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## Ronie (Jan 21, 2011)

I agree Kathy.. I rarely watch the news and lately I have seen some clips that are very scary! I cannot believe that this President and his administration will let these threats go unnoticed!!


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## Jalsh (Aug 6, 2012)

Thank you for sharing this. Our U.S. news keeps us in the dark. I get so disgusted. One night our "Breaking News" was that a family bought a parakeet, it died and when they went to buy another one all of the birds were gone. 
I was thinking what the.....


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitnanny said:


> Causing fear around the world is what terrorists do and we cannot succumb to that. Invading countries to promote democracy doesn't work either. Innocent people end up getting killed in the thousands to stop the few. We have to find another way...


I don't know if there is any other way of attacking this problem short of an all out ground and air war. I wish there was. I know none of us want that.

IS is the most organised, sophisticated and wealthy terrorist group ever seen before and their numbers are growing constantly. As for preventing their advance through intelligence, well, I think that ship has sailed.


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## gigi 722 (Oct 25, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I don't know if there is any other way of attacking this problem short of an all out ground and air war. I wish there was. I know none of us want that.
> 
> IS is the most organised, sophisticated and wealthy terrorist group ever seen before and their numbers are growing constantly. As for preventing their advance through intelligence, well, I think that ship has sailed.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Agree that things are scarey, but I see the situation differently than what has been posted so far. First, people have to disabuse themselves of the notion of the US spreading democracy. Quite to the contrary, the US has gone after every developing country that created a democratic process. It has gone in militarily and economically and destroyed those countries, placing fascists in office. Look at Gaza as a current example. The people elected Hamas and Israel went bonkers along with the US. The people have supported Hamas thru 3 viscious invasions by the country that falsely claims to be a democracy. And it does this with $3 billion/year in military aid. It is clear that whenever there is a democratic process that comes from the people, they always lean toward socialistic type govt's. That is too messy for hegemonic capitialism which is why dictators are preferred. Then if they get uppity and try to side step the US, they get taken out. That is what Iraq was about.

ISIS was propped up by the US and Israel. Israel actually supports a hospital in the Golan Heights I believe for IS wounded. Netanyahu has been documented visiting and supporting this. The US and Israel have also helped create and support bin Laden and Al-Quida.

Oh, and let me not forget to mention the US supporting the breakup of Russia and giving $5 million to support a nazi group in Ukraine specifically to create division, fear and mayhem. The US is still giving money and support. These people walk around like the Hitlerian Brown shirts and use the same language and symbols.

So without getting any longer here, it seems very clear to me that Capitalism and its exported form of Imperialism will do anything to gain control of the world's resources. That is what is scarey to me. We have lost most democratic processes in the US and have been promoting reactionary and repressive tendencies in the EU states. We have corporate control of most political decision making today and what scares me is the the population responds to emotional fear mongering and racial division. As long as you can keep people ignorant and scare them into compliance, the 1% will keep on destroying whatever little remains of our freedoms.

ISIS is not the problem


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## k2p3-knit-on (Oct 24, 2012)

This world is a dangerous place. It might have been in TIME magazine where I read there are always about 10 active wars, most don't make the big news. This time in history is scary and I worry about the world my grandchildren are growing up in and the world they will raise their families in.


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## Jalsh (Aug 6, 2012)

Tamarque, the USA is a Republic. Just sayin...


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## tweeter (Dec 22, 2012)

I agree things are getting awful scary in this world today and th only ting we can do is put in God's hands


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## Glenlady (Mar 25, 2013)

k2p3-knit-on said:


> This world is a dangerous place. It might have been in TIME magazine where I read there are always about 10 active wars, most don't make the big news. This time in history is scary and I worry about the world my grandchildren are growing up in and the world they will raise their families in.


I'm in the Uk , but I'm with you on this one :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## martina (Jun 24, 2012)

Currently ISIS is the problem.


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## anetdeer (Jul 16, 2012)

The West is too concerned about being politically correct than being safe. When we finally realize this it will be too late.


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## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

Things are very bad in the world today. Everywhere, with all that is going on, I can see that we truly are in the "last days" as the bible warned us about. All we can really do is pray and call on the Lord to get us through and help us know what and how to do it.


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## Janetkee (Jul 8, 2014)

JeanWilkins said:


> Things are very bad in the world today. Everywhere, with all that is going on, I can see that we truly are in the "last days" as the bible warned us about. All we can really do is pray and call on the Lord to get us through and help us know what and how to do it.


Yep.


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## Mary Cardiff (Mar 18, 2012)

It has me really worried,My son flies back to Azerbaijan Sunday or Monday,The Nato meeting is in Newport uk,barricades are up in Cardiff,Do the have to broadcast events like that,


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## ompuff (Apr 9, 2011)

..


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## dagmargrubaugh (May 10, 2011)

JeanWilkins said:


> Things are very bad in the world today. Everywhere, with all that is going on, I can see that we truly are in the "last days" as the bible warned us about. All we can really do is pray and call on the Lord to get us through and help us know what and how to do it.


Exactly! He is still in control,


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> http://www.9news.com.au/World/2014/08/30/19/39/Saudi-king-warns-West-will-be-next-terrorism-target
> 
> When the King of Saudi Arabia issues a warning to the west about encroaching terrorism then isn't it time for the west to galvanize and end this 'cancer' calling itself ISIS before it's too late?
> 
> ...


 Really? I am interested in just how you propose to do that.
And after ISIS - how about the next fanatical group?
How about addressing the cause of all this animosity towards the "west".


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Glenlady said:


> I'm in the Uk , but I'm with you on this one :thumbup: :thumbup:


I agree as well. The end of the Cold War was expected to usher in a new era of world peace, but it certainly hasn't done so. I want my money back!!


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## DonnieK (Nov 23, 2011)

The bible says near the end of the world and the return of Christ, there will be wars and rumors of wars, brother will fight against brother, whether people want to hear it or not we are in the days of the Revelation and Christ coming. The only thing to really do is pray that you are ready for His coming and pray for those who are not ready for His coming. I know there are those who will come against me on this posting, but that too is covered in the bible because the Christians, the believers in Christ Jesus will be persecuted for believing and only through faith will we live for 1000 years in peace and tranquility.


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## run4fittness (May 22, 2011)

I am still not sure what ISIS is. Just does not compute for me. Pre-senior moment I guess.


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## Janetkee (Jul 8, 2014)

DonnieK said:


> The bible says near the end of the world and the return of Christ, there will be wars and rumors of wars, brother will fight against brother, whether people want to hear it or not we are in the days of the Revelation and Christ coming. The only thing to really do is pray that you are ready for His coming and pray for those who are not ready for His coming. I know there are those who will come against me on this posting, but that too is covered in the bible because the Christians, the believers in Christ Jesus will be persecuted for believing and only through faith will we live for 1000 years in peace and tranquility.


Yep.


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

run4fittness said:


> I am still not sure what ISIS is. Just does not compute for me. Pre-senior moment I guess.


 ISIS is the current radical terrorist group in the Middle East.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

DonnieK said:


> The bible says near the end of the world and the return of Christ, there will be wars and rumors of wars, brother will fight against brother, whether people want to hear it or not we are in the days of the Revelation and Christ coming. The only thing to really do is pray that you are ready for His coming and pray for those who are not ready for His coming. I know there are those who will come against me on this posting, but that too is covered in the bible because the Christians, the believers in Christ Jesus will be persecuted for believing and only through faith will we live for 1000 years in peace and tranquility.


Frankly, I believe He expects us to try solve any problems we've brought upon ourselves through our own efforts. The world--and the West in particular--has brought about the current state of crisis by a series of shortsighted and very dumb decisions. Throwing up our hands and/or begging God to save us is not the correct path.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Jalsh said:


> Tamarque, the USA is a Republic. Just sayin...


 :thumbup:


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

JeanWilkins said:


> Things are very bad in the world today. Everywhere, with all that is going on, I can see that we truly are in the "last days" as the bible warned us about. All we can really do is pray and call on the Lord to get us through and help us know what and how to do it.


Everyone needs to get ready Jesus is coming soon.


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Frankly, I believe He expects us to try solve any problems we've brought upon ourselves through our own efforts. The world--and the West in particular--has brought about the current state of crisis by a series of shortsighted and very dumb decisions. Throwing up our hands and/or begging God to save us is not the correct path.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Run4fitness--ISIS is an Islamic group that has developed into a strongly militaristic organization. It has gained control of many oil fields and deals on the black market making it financially self-supporting. It is proving to be a strong force and promotes a radical, fundamentalist agenda. Without accepting the fact that it came into existence and is supported by the US and Israel, there can be no understanding of why it is still gaining strength. 

I disagree with much that is said here because statements are made without any facts behind them. First, more war does create peace. We know this in interpersonal relationships just as we know this on international levels. The warmongering of the West against states that sit on coveted resources like oil and gas and water has resulted in equally extreme counter forces developing. The West being the racist, elitist and arrogant set of nations that they are has refused to learn that when you attack people, they will find a way to fight back. Western culture, so full of hubris, cannot believe that people who live in a desert have enough intelligence and personal integrity to fight back. And fighting back they are with increasing skills and commitment. 

As for the US being a Republic? This is a diversionary comment in my book. The principles that this country were allegedly founded on, and the ones we had hammered into our brains in grade school were principles of democractic and humanistic values. The political structure may be that of a Republic but it is a collective of states that follow a Federal constitution with specific guidelines for doing political governance. Being a Republic does not contradict the democratic principles that we are told guide national policy. Of course this is a blatant lie. Capitalism and Democracy are not the same. They are contradictory to each other. Capitalism loves dictators and fascism and has always supported that structure throughout the years. 

If we, the people, want to see change, it should behoove us to learn as much as possible about what is really happening. Mainstream media is not the place to go for information unless you want a good study on propaganda and a population can be dumbed down and controlled.

There are sources of better and more real information but it takes a desire to be more responsible and learn from independent sources--and there are many. I find mainstream news to be so toxic to the brain and spirit. My Rx is to stay away from it. Watching Jon Stewart will give you more reality.


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> http://www.9news.com.au/World/2014/08/30/19/39/Saudi-king-warns-West-will-be-next-terrorism-target
> 
> When the King of Saudi Arabia issues a warning to the west about encroaching terrorism then isn't it time for the west to galvanize and end this 'cancer' calling itself ISIS before it's too late?
> 
> ...


After reading this article I question why the Saudi's are not taking action since this problem is in their back yard.
They certainly have the funds to buy any equipment or machinery they need to fight a war! Why depend on the "west" to eradicate the current group of crazies?


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Frankly, I believe He expects us to try solve any problems we've brought upon ourselves through our own efforts. The world--and the West in particular--has brought about the current state of crisis by a series of shortsighted and very dumb decisions. Throwing up our hands and/or begging God to save us is not the correct path.


Too late to beg God. People don't want God so He is letting them find out that they do need Him. We are in the Last Days as someone has already said. You will be begging God before it is over with. He is always your only Hope.

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age
Matthew 24

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ, and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a] these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,* and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My names sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.*


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## Janetkee (Jul 8, 2014)

When the bombs are falling, I wouldn't count on Jon Stewart to drop everything and come save you. You might want to find yourself another "god".


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## knitnanny (Feb 28, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Frankly, I believe He expects us to try solve any problems we've brought upon ourselves through our own efforts. The world--and the West in particular--has brought about the current state of crisis by a series of shortsighted and very dumb decisions. Throwing up our hands and/or begging God to save us is not the correct path.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Mary Cardiff (Mar 18, 2012)

Glenlady said:


> I'm in the Uk , but I'm with you on this one :thumbup: :thumbup:


I got really depressed just after my son was born,Riots had started in Hong Kong,Two beautiful chinese children had been blow up,by a parcel left outside their shop,done up like a present,I felt guilty I had brought my son into such a wicked world


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

GroodleMom said:


> Really? I am interested in just how you propose to do that.
> And after ISIS - how about the next fanatical group?
> How about addressing the cause of all this animosity towards the "west".


Do you have any ideas?


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## jeannietta (Mar 14, 2011)

All of the good people of this world must come together to stop this cancer from spreading. I believe that is our only hope.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

GroodleMom said:


> After reading this article I question why the Saudi's are not taking action since this problem is in their back yard.
> They certainly have the funds to buy any equipment or machinery they need to fight a war! Why depend on the "west" to eradicate the current group of crazies?


The official line from Riyadh is that IS is a terrorist organisation and poses a real threat. However, Saudi citizens are making private donations in the hundreds of millions to IS and other groups in the region according to the Washington Institute. Something tells me they're not about to brace themselves for combat.

Why depend on the west? Because IS poses a real threat to the west with citizens from my country Australia, UK, US Europe, and many others are fighting with IS. David Cameron, the UK Prime Minister raised their terror alert to severe for that very reason within the last 24 - 48 hrs. There is grave concern that these people will return to their countries and wreak havoc there.

Also, surely lessons learned from 9/11 remain current?


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## jheiens (Jan 20, 2011)

Oh, really?????



tamarque said:


> Agree that things are scarey, but I see the situation differently than what has been posted so far. First, people have to disabuse themselves of the notion of the US spreading democracy. Quite to the contrary, the US has gone after every developing country that created a democratic process. It has gone in militarily and economically and destroyed those countries, placing fascists in office. Look at Gaza as a current example. The people elected Hamas and Israel went bonkers along with the US. The people have supported Hamas thru 3 viscious invasions by the country that falsely claims to be a democracy. And it does this with $3 billion/year in military aid. It is clear that whenever there is a democratic process that comes from the people, they always lean toward socialistic type govt's. That is too messy for hegemonic capitialism which is why dictators are preferred. Then if they get uppity and try to side step the US, they get taken out. That is what Iraq was about.
> 
> ISIS was propped up by the US and Israel. Israel actually supports a hospital in the Golan Heights I believe for IS wounded. Netanyahu has been documented visiting and supporting this. The US and Israel have also helped create and support bin Laden and Al-Quida.
> 
> ...


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## Montana Gramma (Dec 19, 2012)

knitnanny said:


> Causing fear around the world is what terrorists do and we cannot succumb to that. The West supported Bin Laden when Russia invaded Afghanistan so we have to be careful who we label as friends or foe. Invading countries to promote democracy doesn't work either. Innocent people end up getting killed in the thousands to stop the few. We have to find another way...


Another way would be wonderful but these fanatics have no value placed on their life or ours so conventional methods for compromise etc. are not going to work. I think a little fear is not a bad thing, keeps all of us vigilant. We choose not to live where they would consider their terrorism a good target, ie big city, hydro, nuclear plant, munitions, heavy population etc. Not everyone can be that flexible. I want my kids out of Denver, but that is not going to happen. So I support the method that holds them back, kicks them down, eliminates immediate threats etc. human shields will take the brunt of it, but they should be more responsible to their families and do what is right. But as the one mother of a car bombing son said," you may give 1 or 2 sons to the cause, I will have as many children as possible to give to Allah". Then she collected her $20,000 from the terrorists.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

We constantly jump in with both feet, try to rearrange for our purpose or to fit what we think is right, destabilize a region...then are surprised when it comes back to bite us in the butt.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

knitnanny said:


> Causing fear around the world is what terrorists do and we cannot succumb to that. The West supported Bin Laden when Russia invaded Afghanistan so we have to be careful who we label as friends or foe. Invading countries to promote democracy doesn't work either. Innocent people end up getting killed in the thousands to stop the few. We have to find another way...


Well said knitnanny, thank you


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> We constantly jump in with both feet, try to rearrange for our purpose or to fit what we think is right, destabilize a region...then are surprised when it comes back to bite us in the butt.


I have to agree with you, Sumpleby. The destabilization of Iraq was key to the creation of Frankenstein's monster AKA Isis. It's OUR baby.


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Run4fitness--ISIS is an Islamic group that has developed into a strongly militaristic organization. It has gained control of many oil fields and deals on the black market making it financially self-supporting. It is proving to be a strong force and promotes a radical, fundamentalist agenda. Without accepting the fact that it came into existence and is supported by the US and Israel, there can be no understanding of why it is still gaining strength.
> 
> I disagree with much that is said here because statements are made without any facts behind them. First, more war does create peace. We know this in interpersonal relationships just as we know this on international levels. The warmongering of the West against states that sit on coveted resources like oil and gas and water has resulted in equally extreme counter forces developing. The West being the racist, elitist and arrogant set of nations that they are has refused to learn that when you attack people, they will find a way to fight back. Western culture, so full of hubris, cannot believe that people who live in a desert have enough intelligence and personal integrity to fight back. And fighting back they are with increasing skills and commitment.
> 
> ...


Very well said and very well written.


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Well said knitnanny, thank you


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Do you have any ideas?


Yes- spend our efforts protecting our borders - air as well as ground and sea. And stay out of the politics of other countries!
If the Saudi's and other M.E. countries, emirates, etc. are concerned with ISIS then THEY should be the ones to take action.


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Too late to beg God. People don't want God so He is letting them find out that they do need Him. We are in the Last Days as someone has already said. You will be begging God before it is over with. He is always your only Hope.
> 
> The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age
> Matthew 24
> ...


*

We aren't hated because of our god, we are hated because we interfere with the politics and economy and sovereignty of other countries to benefit our selves.*


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Yes, GroodleMom--The US manipulates actively in order to create divisiveness and disruption. The goals is always to weaken another State in order to control what goes on in that State. The US created the mess in Ukraine right now. It funded nazi groups with $5 million as a starter. And then demanded that a pro-West, pro-NATO leader be installed which the US selected. The Ukraine is losing badly right now, but you would not know that from the mass media. What we get are blatant lies such as invasions from Russia with photos that do not show what they are claimed to show. The Separatists in eastern Ukraine are well armed from the many tanks and weaponry abandoned by the Ukraine forces. But the big lie is being broadcast widely. 

Gaza is a US intervention gone wilder than can be tolerated by Americans. $3 billion/year for 30 yrs for military aid to Israel has resulted in this racist assault on a people with far greater claim to the land. 

Terrorism? Asked the people of the world who the biggest terrorist threat is and the answer is always the US! And that includes Americans in those polls.

If you want peace, build peace. You will not bomb the crap out a residential community and make friends. You cannot destroy a well developed nation, as Iraq was, and expect to be welcomed or trusted.

911? If you believe a couple of utility knives enable the takeover of 4 jets, I have a bridge to sell you. There is nothing in that 'official' story that is believable, including the way that the collapse of Building 7 was totally ignored in the official report. Most interesting was what was stored in that building.

There is a book that was published maybe 5 yrs ago: Confessions of an Economic Hit Man by John Perkins. This man reveals a lot of the dirty laundry of the west resulting in the impoverishment and destabilization of many developing nations. This is clearly a book on how not to make friends while imposing influence on others.

Again, you want peace, build peace. Dennis Kucinich is right when he lobbied for a Department of Peace on a cabinet level.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

I would like people to read this not to long article. It comes from a Canadian based group which shows a lot of independence in thought and analysis.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/russian-invasion-screaming-wolf-strategy-of-deception-lies-repeated-umpteen-times-what-is-the-endgame/5398403

The article is formulated around understanding the Big Picture which is something that mass media and politicians always try to bury and confuse. While focused on the Ukrainian debacle, it also addressed ISIS which is pertinent.

If you like this article, you may read more of what this group puts out and can sign up, for free, for getting their articles by email.


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Yes, GroodleMom--The US manipulates actively in order to create divisiveness and disruption. The goals is always to weaken another State in order to control what goes on in that State. The US created the mess in Ukraine right now. It funded nazi groups with $5 million as a starter. And then demanded that a pro-West, pro-NATO leader be installed which the US selected. The Ukraine is losing badly right now, but you would not know that from the mass media. What we get are blatant lies such as invasions from Russia with photos that do not show what they are claimed to show. The Separatists in eastern Ukraine are well armed from the many tanks and weaponry abandoned by the Ukraine forces. But the big lie is being broadcast widely.
> 
> Gaza is a US intervention gone wilder than can be tolerated by Americans. $3 billion/year for 30 yrs for military aid to Israel has resulted in this racist assault on a people with far greater claim to the land.
> 
> ...


 Dennis Kucinich is right about a lot of things. Too bad that he is not given the respect he deserves.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

DonnieK said:


> The bible says near the end of the world and the return of Christ, there will be wars and rumors of wars, brother will fight against brother, whether people want to hear it or not we are in the days of the Revelation and Christ coming. The only thing to really do is pray that you are ready for His coming and pray for those who are not ready for His coming. I know there are those who will come against me on this posting, but that too is covered in the bible because the Christians, the believers in Christ Jesus will be persecuted for believing and only through faith will we live for 1000 years in peace and tranquility.


Brother fought against brother in the American Civil War over a hundred years ago.


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## jeannietta (Mar 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Yes, GroodleMom--The US manipulates actively in order to create divisiveness and disruption. The goals is always to weaken another State in order to control what goes on in that State. The US created the mess in Ukraine right now. It funded nazi groups with $5 million as a starter. And then demanded that a pro-West, pro-NATO leader be installed which the US selected. The Ukraine is losing badly right now, but you would not know that from the mass media. What we get are blatant lies such as invasions from Russia with photos that do not show what they are claimed to show. The Separatists in eastern Ukraine are well armed from the many tanks and weaponry abandoned by the Ukraine forces. But the big lie is being broadcast widely.
> 
> Gaza is a US intervention gone wilder than can be tolerated by Americans. $3 billion/year for 30 yrs for military aid to Israel has resulted in this racist assault on a people with far greater claim to the land.
> 
> ...


Jews have lived in what we now call Israel for over 3000 years - back to the time of Joshua. Despite attempts to annihilate them, they maintained a constant presence in the region. During the 1880's when Jews, fleeing a hostile world, began resettling in their homeland, there were only about 250,000 Arabs in the area. Palestine was a creation of the Balfour Declaration in 1920. Prior to that there was no Palestine. Israel was created and validated by the League of Nations and the United Nations as a State. Any land it has now beyond its original borders was won in defensive wars. The Arabs living in Israel enjoy all of the rights of Jews and other religions, their democratic principles, and serve in the government as well as the professions. On the other hand, Hamas is a terrorist organization that uses building materials to build underground tunnels to attack Israel. In Israel, many opinions are aired. There is an old saying that if two Jews get together, there are three opinions. In Gaza, if you disagree with Hamas, you are executed. If you are so concerned with the situation in Gaza why aren't you over there helping, rather than here in a Country you obviously despise?
You have a right to your opinion, but not to the facts.

Now back to knitting!


----------



## jeannietta (Mar 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> I would like people to read this not to long article. It comes from a Canadian based group which shows a lot of independence in thought and analysis.
> 
> http://www.globalresearch.ca/russian-invasion-screaming-wolf-strategy-of-deception-lies-repeated-umpteen-times-what-is-the-endgame/5398403
> 
> ...


I did a little research on the internet about this organization. It has been criticized as being a forum for anti-Jewish conspiracy theory and Holocaust denial. Michel Chossudovsky, the founder, is on the list of Canada's nuttiest professors, those whose absurdity stands head and shoulders above their colleagues. Global Research.ca has also been labelled "a clubhouse for crackpots".

From the beginning of time the media has shaped our beliefs, distorted the truth and in general stirred up trouble. However it is incumbent upon us, as educated and free people to sift through all the garbage out there to get to the facts.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Yes, GroodleMom--The US manipulates actively in order to create divisiveness and disruption. The goals is always to weaken another State in order to control what goes on in that State. The US created the mess in Ukraine right now. It funded nazi groups with $5 million as a starter. And then demanded that a pro-West, pro-NATO leader be installed which the US selected. The Ukraine is losing badly right now, but you would not know that from the mass media. What we get are blatant lies such as invasions from Russia with photos that do not show what they are claimed to show. The Separatists in eastern Ukraine are well armed from the many tanks and weaponry abandoned by the Ukraine forces. But the big lie is being broadcast widely.
> 
> Gaza is a US intervention gone wilder than can be tolerated by Americans. $3 billion/year for 30 yrs for military aid to Israel has resulted in this racist assault on a people with far greater claim to the land.
> 
> ...


_Gaza is a US intervention gone wilder than can be tolerated by Americans. $3 billion/year for 30 yrs for military aid to Israel has resulted in this racist assault on a people with far greater claim to the land._ ???????

I read this as advocating the overthrow of the state of Israel. Are you not aware that Israel has the right to exist and that includes the right not to have groups or individuals lobbying rockets over their borders and digging tunnels under their borders in order to kidnap their citizens and create havoc.

If you are stating that Israel does not have the right to exist then you are nearly 70 years too late to do that. Israel was created in 1948. Israel has never been without Jewish inhabitants, never, and this goes back several thousand years to the time of Abraham. So how can you say that the Palestinians have a greater claim to the land. There has never been a historic country of Palestine, the people who call themselves Palestinians are in fact Arab. The language they speak is Arabic.

The 1948 was against Israel was not a war designed to help the people displaced by the state of Israel but a war designed to drive the Jews into the sea. The Jewish people won. They have been fighting for their existence ever since.

Your comments on the 9/11 tragedy are also misleading and depend on theories advocated by people with a hidden agenda. Your comments regarding the collapse of building 7 and what was stored there have also been investigated, thoroughly, and proven to be incorrect.


----------



## jeannietta (Mar 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> _Gaza is a US intervention gone wilder than can be tolerated by Americans. $3 billion/year for 30 yrs for military aid to Israel has resulted in this racist assault on a people with far greater claim to the land._ ???????
> 
> I read this as advocating the overthrow of the state of Israel. Are you not aware that Israel has the right to exist and that includes the right not to have groups or individuals lobbying rockets over their borders and digging tunnels under their borders in order to kidnap their citizens and create havoc.
> 
> ...


I agree with you 100% as you can see from my posts.


----------



## Janetkee (Jul 8, 2014)

jeannietta said:


> I agree with you 100% as you can see from my posts.


Me, too.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

tamarque said:


> Agree that things are scarey, but I see the situation differently than what has been posted so far. First, people have to disabuse themselves of the notion of the US spreading democracy. Quite to the contrary, the US has gone after every developing country that created a democratic process. It has gone in militarily and economically and destroyed those countries, placing fascists in office. Look at Gaza as a current example. The people elected Hamas and Israel went bonkers along with the US. The people have supported Hamas thru 3 viscious invasions by the country that falsely claims to be a democracy. And it does this with $3 billion/year in military aid. It is clear that whenever there is a democratic process that comes from the people, they always lean toward socialistic type govt's. That is too messy for hegemonic capitialism which is why dictators are preferred. Then if they get uppity and try to side step the US, they get taken out. That is what Iraq was about.
> 
> ISIS was propped up by the US and Israel. Israel actually supports a hospital in the Golan Heights I believe for IS wounded. Netanyahu has been documented visiting and supporting this. The US and Israel have also helped create and support bin Laden and Al-Quida.
> 
> ...


Where did you get your insights into Israel?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MS. Eve and Jeannietta - Thanks for speaking well of Israel. My old friend Tamarque spoke some truths but totally nutty re: israel.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

SQM--I get my information primarily from Israel itself. My statement about IS and Netanyahu comes from a photo and article of him with his own commentary. I pay attention to the progressive groups there just as I do here. While I find some of the writers too liberal; ie, apologists for the horror show Israel has perpetrated, they still lend voice to criticisms. And thanks to the racist insanity that prevails over there, many Jewish people are beginning to speak out worldwide, including in the US.

And I need to differ with you--my ideas are not nutty, they are real and the information is just as available to you as it is to me. Where we differ is that I am not in the habit of supporting nations whose policies and politics are repulsive. Of course if all one does is listen to mainstream media, such misinformation is understandable. But even the NYTimes is printing Opinions that question Zionism. So if you want to question my information, you may do so respectfully, but I find making disparaging comments about me to be no different than the way some of the right wing fundamentalist types attack emotionally and with ad hominems and character assassination.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

tamarque said:


> SQM--I get my information primarily from Israel itself. My statement about IS and Netanyahu comes from a photo and article of him with his own commentary. I pay attention to the progressive groups there just as I do here. While I find some of the writers too liberal; ie, apologists for the horror show Israel has perpetrated, they still lend voice to criticisms. And thanks to the racist insanity that prevails over there, many Jewish people are beginning to speak out worldwide, including in the US.
> 
> And I need to differ with you--my ideas are not nutty, they are real and the information is just as available to you as it is to me. Where we differ is that I am not in the habit of supporting nations whose policies and politics are repulsive. Of course if all one does is listen to mainstream media, such misinformation is understandable. But even the NYTimes is printing Opinions that question Zionism. So if you want to question my information, you may do so respectfully, but I find making disparaging comments about me to be no different than the way some of the right wing fundamentalist types attack emotionally and with ad hominems and character assassination.


Sorry - you hit one of my major nerves.

The Times has never been pro-Israel - old news.

Why don't you ever mention what is happening in Africa, North Korea, Islamic Countries and I am sure a bunch of other countries that put on "horror shows". (I challenge you to name some other countries?) Israel fought a 'gentlemanly" war - warning Gaza civilians before strikes. Who does that? You hate Israel for being smarter about things. If the Arabs had any sense, they would befriend Israel and be brought into the 21st Century. What dopes!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jeannietta said:


> Jews have lived in what we now call Israel for over 3000 years - back to the time of Joshua. Despite attempts to annihilate them, they maintained a constant presence in the region. During the 1880's when Jews, fleeing a hostile world, began resettling in their homeland, there were only about 250,000 Arabs in the area. Palestine was a creation of the Balfour Declaration in 1920. Prior to that there was no Palestine. Israel was created and validated by the League of Nations and the United Nations as a State. Any land it has now beyond its original borders was won in defensive wars. The Arabs living in Israel enjoy all of the rights of Jews and other religions, their democratic principles, and serve in the government as well as the professions. On the other hand, Hamas is a terrorist organization that uses building materials to build underground tunnels to attack Israel. In Israel, many opinions are aired. There is an old saying that if two Jews get together, there are three opinions. In Gaza, if you disagree with Hamas, you are executed. If you are so concerned with the situation in Gaza why aren't you over there helping, rather than here in a Country you obviously despise?
> You have a right to your opinion, but not to the facts.
> 
> Now back to knitting!


Thank you, Jeannietta. There's a history to Israel that some would like to forget. There is also the fact that those Jews who settled in other middle eastern countries were forced to leave, and the obvious place for them to go was Israel. So to speak as if Jews have no place in the middle east is just another form of racism.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jeannietta said:


> I did a little research on the internet about this organization. It has been criticized as being a forum for anti-Jewish conspiracy theory and Holocaust denial. Michel Chossudovsky, the founder, is on the list of Canada's nuttiest professors, those whose absurdity stands head and shoulders above their colleagues. Global Research.ca has also been labelled "a clubhouse for crackpots".
> 
> From the beginning of time the media has shaped our beliefs, distorted the truth and in general stirred up trouble. However it is incumbent upon us, as educated and free people to sift through all the garbage out there to get to the facts.


Thanks for this, too. I suspect that a lot of her ideas come from such groups.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> SQM--I get my information primarily from Israel itself. My statement about IS and Netanyahu comes from a photo and article of him with his own commentary. I pay attention to the progressive groups there just as I do here. While I find some of the writers too liberal; ie, apologists for the horror show Israel has perpetrated, they still lend voice to criticisms. And thanks to the racist insanity that prevails over there, many Jewish people are beginning to speak out worldwide, including in the US.
> 
> And I need to differ with you--my ideas are not nutty, they are real and the information is just as available to you as it is to me. Where we differ is that I am not in the habit of supporting nations whose policies and politics are repulsive. Of course if all one does is listen to mainstream media, such misinformation is understandable. But even the NYTimes is printing Opinions that question Zionism. So if you want to question my information, you may do so respectfully, but I find making disparaging comments about me to be no different than the way some of the right wing fundamentalist types attack emotionally and with ad hominems and character assassination.


The New York Times has always tilted away from Israel, which you could tell by looking at the photos it chooses to put on its front page. So of course it publishes columns that are anti-Zionist; that should tell you absolutely nothing.

I question your information - to decide on the basis of a picture of Netanyahu that a country does not deserve to remain is hardly a trustworthy way to form an opinion. I'd be interested in seeing the article with commentary that you mention; it sounds specious to me.

What you - and a lot of those who seem to think like you - leave out of your decision-making is the fact that since 1967 Israel has had within its borders a large contingent of people who have sworn to drive the country into the sea. How can any government deal with that and with those people sending rockets into civilian areas and not react the same way?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Jalsh said:


> Thank you for sharing this. Our U.S. news keeps us in the dark. I get so disgusted. One night our "Breaking News" was that a family bought a parakeet, it died and when they went to buy another one all of the birds were gone.
> I was thinking what the.....


 :?: :?: :?: :?:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Interesting comment. Thanks.



GroodleMom said:


> After reading this article I question why the Saudi's are not taking action since this problem is in their back yard.
> They certainly have the funds to buy any equipment or machinery they need to fight a war! Why depend on the "west" to eradicate the current group of crazies?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I like Jon Stewart.



Janetkee said:


> When the bombs are falling, I wouldn't count on Jon Stewart to drop everything and come save you. You might want to find yourself another "god".


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> We constantly jump in with both feet, try to rearrange for our purpose or to fit what we think is right, destabilize a region...then are surprised when it comes back to bite us in the butt.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm tempted to agree on this. I don't think of the USA as the police of the world. No one from inside asked for our help. The rest of the world refuses to join in. And no one is going to thank us for interfering. Protect our borders and let others worry about theirs.



GroodleMom said:


> Yes- spend our efforts protecting our borders - air as well as ground and sea. And stay out of the politics of other countries!
> If the Saudi's and other M.E. countries, emirates, etc. are concerned with ISIS then THEY should be the ones to take action.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

GroodleMom said:


> We aren't hated because of our god, we are hated because we interfere with the politics and economy and sovereignty of other countries to benefit our selves.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for your comments.



jeannietta said:


> Jews have lived in what we now call Israel for over 3000 years - back to the time of Joshua. Despite attempts to annihilate them, they maintained a constant presence in the region. During the 1880's when Jews, fleeing a hostile world, began resettling in their homeland, there were only about 250,000 Arabs in the area. Palestine was a creation of the Balfour Declaration in 1920. Prior to that there was no Palestine. Israel was created and validated by the League of Nations and the United Nations as a State. Any land it has now beyond its original borders was won in defensive wars. The Arabs living in Israel enjoy all of the rights of Jews and other religions, their democratic principles, and serve in the government as well as the professions. On the other hand, Hamas is a terrorist organization that uses building materials to build underground tunnels to attack Israel. In Israel, many opinions are aired. There is an old saying that if two Jews get together, there are three opinions. In Gaza, if you disagree with Hamas, you are executed. If you are so concerned with the situation in Gaza why aren't you over there helping, rather than here in a Country you obviously despise?
> You have a right to your opinion, but not to the facts.
> 
> Now back to knitting!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Eve. Well put.



EveMCooke said:


> _Gaza is a US intervention gone wilder than can be tolerated by Americans. $3 billion/year for 30 yrs for military aid to Israel has resulted in this racist assault on a people with far greater claim to the land._ ???????
> 
> I read this as advocating the overthrow of the state of Israel. Are you not aware that Israel has the right to exist and that includes the right not to have groups or individuals lobbying rockets over their borders and digging tunnels under their borders in order to kidnap their citizens and create havoc.
> 
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> _Gaza is a US intervention gone wilder than can be tolerated by Americans. $3 billion/year for 30 yrs for military aid to Israel has resulted in this racist assault on a people with far greater claim to the land._ ???????
> 
> I read this as advocating the overthrow of the state of Israel. Are you not aware that Israel has the right to exist and that includes the right not to have groups or individuals lobbying rockets over their borders and digging tunnels under their borders in order to kidnap their citizens and create havoc.
> 
> ...


Somehow I missed this before. Thank you, Eve. You put it very well.


----------



## joycevv (Oct 13, 2011)

When journalists and reporters are being brutally murdered, how does anyone know what's really going on? I can't imagine how hard it must be for the ordinary people on both sides who just want to live i lives. Some of the insensitive and ill informed comments on this thread certainly aren't helping.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

joycevv said:


> When journalists and reporters are being brutally murdered, how does anyone know what's really going on? I can't imagine how hard it must be for the ordinary people on both sides who just want to live i lives. Some of the insensitive and ill informed comments on this thread certainly aren't helping.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Everyone needs to get ready Jesus is coming soon.


Amen! :thumbup: Our Sunday School lesson yesterday was from Revelation; which has always been one of my favorite books in the bible. My eldest daughter, however, has always been afraid of it; which makes me think that the Holy spirit has been working on her.
My mother had told me way back when I was a kid, that throughout history every country that got to the point of turning their backs on God eventually fell. It is the truth and the US is in that place right now. If we don't turn things around concerning God, we will fall.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

JeanWilkins said:


> Amen! :thumbup: Our Sunday School lesson yesterday was from Revelation; which has always been one of my favorite books in the bible. My eldest daughter, however, has always been afraid of it; which makes me think that the Holy spirit has been working on her.
> My mother had told me way back when I was a kid, that throughout history every country that got to the point of turning their backs on God eventually fell. It is the truth and the US is in that place right now. If we don't turn things around concerning God, we will fall.


But there are so many definitions of what god is. Which one is going to save humankind?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> But there are so many definitions of what god is. Which one is going to save humankind?


Good point, SQM. I find such talk alarming. The ISIS recruits too are convinced that their version of a God-centered society is the answer to the world's problems--isn't that what we're fighting against?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> But there are so many definitions of what god is. Which one is going to save humankind?


The One that died on the Cross to save you from your sins.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Good point, SQM. I find such talk alarming. The ISIS recruits too are convinced that their version of a God-centered society is the answer to the world's problems--isn't that what we're fighting against?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I'm with you ladies. I also find this alarming.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> The One that died on the Cross to save you from your sins.


But the most of world's population (68%) would disagree with you. Christianity is your religion and your right, but it's a mistake to insist that others believe as you do or to use your religious beliefs as a blueprint for building some kind of Christian calyph. It simply won't work.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> But the most of world's population (68%) would disagree with you. Christianity is your religion and your right, but it's a mistake to insist that others believe as you do or to use your religious beliefs as a blueprint for building some kind of Christian calyph. It simply won't work.


I only speak the Truth. Take it or leave it. Your choice. Heaven or Hell. I take Heaven.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> The One that died on the Cross to save you from your sins.


Hi Bumps,

You know I am Jewish so that answer will not work for me. Happy Labor Day.


----------



## MrsB (Jun 3, 2011)

Send out the pit bulls.

A few years ago I was taking a university course in the Sociology of War. A gal from my class, from Eastern origins, and I were walking after class and talked about what could be done about all the chaos in the Middle East. She felt that any interventions should not come from the U.S. but from the surrounding countries to whichever nation was in chaos. Those who share the same religions, customs and political ideologies as one another will be in a better position to affect changes. Otherwise, who's going to listen or follow any feasible plan of action? Npw comes the time where people in those nations need to get their lives back in order, with jobs, schooling and a strong policing force that protects, not destroys, what's left of these shelled out, emaciated landmarks. Men with guns are not working in jobs, they are glorified gangs. 

Peace begins with a government that is uncorrupted and fair, that promotes families, jobs and schooling. We pay a lot in taxes in the U.S. for such amenities but we are also a country that has many opportunities to thrive as a nation, and maybe our system works because of laws, legitimate punishments for wrongdoing and enforced sanctions. Now, if we could just get our young men to stop killing each other on the streets, we would save the nation a ton of money. And we should put a cap on what the Defense Dept is allowed to steal from taxpayers, to go into foreign countries and kill innocent families. We are better than that.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No point in discussing with her. Mind wide shut.



susanmos2000 said:


> But the most of world's population (68%) would disagree with you. Christianity is your religion and your right, but it's a mistake to insist that others believe as you do or to use your religious beliefs as a blueprint for building some kind of Christian calyph. It simply won't work.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I only speak the Truth. Take it or leave it. Your choice. Heaven or Hell. I take Heaven.


"Your choice"--truer words never spoken. That means not demanding or even expecting the rest of the world to live as you do. Mandatory Christianity is as loathsome as what ISIS and other extremist Islamic groups are trying to cram down the world's throat.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> No point in discussing with her. Mind wide shut.


You're right, but something compels me to keep trying. Just call me Sisyphus.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Tamarque mentioned earlier here that Israel was a 'horror show". Came across this link in my online surfing:

http://wallstcheatsheet.com/business/7-most-corrupt-countries.html/12/?ref=OB


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> "Your choice"--truer words never spoken. That means not demanding or even expecting the rest of the world to live as you do. Mandatory Christianity is as loathsome as what ISIS and other extremist Islamic groups are trying to cram down the world's throat.


I just answered SQM's question. I never demanded anything.You can stop cramming your hate down my throat. You would be a good Christian killer. Why don't you move to another country that isn't a Christian nation? You said you were Catholic.Last time I heard Catholics believe in Jesus. So which is it for today? How is your hate any different that the extremist Islamic groups? I always speak the truth.
It is your choice. Heaven or Hell. You are on top of the fence. Get on one side or the other.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:



> You're right, but something compels me to keep trying. Just call me Sisyphus.


 You can try to dismiss me all you want. But you have to chose a side. Can't be against Him and for Him at the same time. I call you lost in your sins. I pray the Holy Spirit convicts you of them before it is too late.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I just answered SQM's question. I never demanded anything.You can stop cramming your hate down my throat. You would be a good Christian killer.


Pretty harsh there, CB. Do you want to rethink that statement?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Pretty harsh there, CB. Do you want to rethink that statement?


Nope!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

You all don't get her point. Believe or not, he's the real thing, and everyone who denies him can - and will - go to hell.

Considering the history we've had with his believers, I'm not so sure ISIS is any different.


SQM said:


> Hi Bumps,
> 
> You know I am Jewish so that answer will not work for me. Happy Labor Day.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MrsB said:


> Send out the pit bulls.
> 
> A few years ago I was taking a university course in the Sociology of War. A gal from my class, from Eastern origins, and I were walking after class and talked about what could be done about all the chaos in the Middle East. She felt that any interventions should not come from the U.S. but from the surrounding countries to whichever nation was in chaos. Those who share the same religions, customs and political ideologies as one another will be in a better position to affect changes. Otherwise, who's going to listen or follow any feasible plan of action? Npw comes the time where people in those nations need to get their lives back in order, with jobs, schooling and a strong policing force that protects, not destroys, what's left of these shelled out, emaciated landmarks. Men with guns are not working in jobs, they are glorified gangs.
> 
> Peace begins with a government that is uncorrupted and fair, that promotes families, jobs and schooling. We pay a lot in taxes in the U.S. for such amenities but we are also a country that has many opportunities to thrive as a nation, and maybe our system works because of laws, legitimate punishments for wrongdoing and enforced sanctions. Now, if we could just get our young men to stop killing each other on the streets, we would save the nation a ton of money. And we should put a cap on what the Defense Dept is allowed to steal from taxpayers, to go into foreign countries and kill innocent families. We are better than that.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Pretty harsh there, CB. Do you want to rethink that statement?


You left out most of my statement I will copy it for you.
I just answered SQM's question. I never demanded anything.You can stop cramming your hate down my throat. You would be a good Christian killer. Why don't you move to another country that isn't a Christian nation? You said you were Catholic.Last time I heard Catholics believe in Jesus. So which is it for today? How is your hate any different that the extremist Islamic groups? I always speak the truth.
It is your choice. Heaven or Hell. You are on top of the fence. Get on one side or the other


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> "Your choice"--truer words never spoken. That means not demanding or even expecting the rest of the world to live as you do. Mandatory Christianity is as loathsome as what ISIS and other extremist Islamic groups are trying to cram down the world's throat.


So you choose Hell? This brings up a serious question: if a genuine believer doesn't want to cram her beliefs "down the world's throat" (odd mental picture), what is her choice, heaven or hell?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You all don't get her point. Believe or not, he's the real thing, and everyone who denies him can - and will - go to hell.
> 
> Considering the history we've had with his believers, I'm not so sure ISIS is any different.


Right on, Sister!


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Here is a song from my favorite Jew.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl1zUqynBVs


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I just answered SQM's question. I never demanded anything.You can stop cramming your hate down my throat. You would be a good Christian killer. Why don't you move to another country that isn't a Christian nation? You said you were Catholic.Last time I heard Catholics believe in Jesus. So which is it for today? How is your hate any different that the extremist Islamic groups? I always speak the truth.
> It is your choice. Heaven or Hell. You are on top of the fence. Get on one side or the other.


She's living right now in a country that isn't a Christian nation!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Pretty harsh there, CB. Do you want to rethink that statement?


Watch out. When CB prays, a lot of blood gets thrown. If she's going to pray about you, keep the Shout spray bottle nearby.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> She's living right now in a country that isn't a Christian nation![/quote
> Has she moved from California?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Here is a song from my favorite Jew.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl1zUqynBVs


Nu? Mr. Wilbur is my competition?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Watch out. When CB prays, a lot of blood gets thrown. If she's going to pray about you, keep the Shout spray bottle nearby.


Go ahead mock His Name. His Love for you is still the same.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> Nu? Mr. Wilbur is my competition?


Well you are the second favorite.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MrsB said:


> Send out the pit bulls.
> 
> A few years ago I was taking a university course in the Sociology of War. A gal from my class, from Eastern origins, and I were walking after class and talked about what could be done about all the chaos in the Middle East. She felt that any interventions should not come from the U.S. but from the surrounding countries to whichever nation was in chaos. Those who share the same religions, customs and political ideologies as one another will be in a better position to affect changes. Otherwise, who's going to listen or follow any feasible plan of action? Npw comes the time where people in those nations need to get their lives back in order, with jobs, schooling and a strong policing force that protects, not destroys, what's left of these shelled out, emaciated landmarks. Men with guns are not working in jobs, they are glorified gangs.
> 
> Peace begins with a government that is uncorrupted and fair, that promotes families, jobs and schooling. We pay a lot in taxes in the U.S. for such amenities but we are also a country that has many opportunities to thrive as a nation, and maybe our system works because of laws, legitimate punishments for wrongdoing and enforced sanctions. Now, if we could just get our young men to stop killing each other on the streets, we would save the nation a ton of money. And we should put a cap on what the Defense Dept is allowed to steal from taxpayers, to go into foreign countries and kill innocent families. We are better than that.


This is part of an interview with former US Ambassador to Iraq:

EMMA ALBERICI: Our Defence Minister says Australia is reluctant to get involved in Iraq militarily until an inclusive government has been formed under the leadership of the new Prime Minister, Haider al-Abadi. How do we know the new government in Iraq will be any more inclusive than the last one?

CHRISTOPHER HILL: We don't. And I think it's going to be a difficult process. I think Abadi is a very careful man. I think has a good approach to these issues. But there's one key question in are the Sunnis going to accept to live under a government, which given the demographics of Iraq, is going to be Shia-led? And I think that is something where Sunnis, not only in Iraq, but Sunnis in the rest of the Arab world, need to be - speak with a much clearer voice about their views of ISIS. Because this ISIS group, they are not interested in Sunni outreach. They could care less who - which Shia is the Prime Minister in Baghdad. They have branded Shias apostates, that's people who - believers fallen away from the faith and they just want them dead. So, I think the Sunnis in the entire region really need to step up and I think part of the diplomacy that we, the United States and other countries, like-minded countries, we need to motivate the Sunnis and the rest of the Arab Middle East.

EMMA ALBERICI: During your time as ambassador in Iraq, you were fairly adamant that Iraqis should really come up with their own political arrangements.

CHRISTOPHER HILL: Yes.

EMMA ALBERICI: In hindsight, should America have been more involved?

CHRISTOPHER HILL: We were deeply involved, we were deeply involved on a daily basis. What we were not able to do was stage some kind of coup d'etat. I mean, this is - the time for that kind of stuff is long over. The Iraqis really need to be responsible for their leadership. And many people didn't like Maliki, but in politics, you can't beat somebody with nobody and no-one else was coming forward back then in 2010 and so Maliki ultimately won a second term. He was not able to get a third term because a number of the Shia leaders said, "No more for Mr Maliki." So, I think ultimately, to make something stick, you know, you cannot impose someone else's political leaders on them. Doesn't work.

EMMA ALBERICI: And finally, really will Iraq trust the Americans to get it right this time?

CHRISTOPHER HILL: Ha! I'm not sure the Iraqis have a big choice in the matter right now. They are facing a kind of existential issue right now. I mean, this cradle of civilisation has been besieged by people who are about as uncivilised as one can imagine. So I think Iraqis are going to have to try to do something they haven't done too often, which is come together and deal with this threat.

EMMA ALBERICI: Christopher Hill, we have to leave it there. Many thanks for coming in for us.

CHRISTOPHER HILL: Thank you.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-01/assisting-the-kurds-is-just-a-first-step-in-iraq/5711784


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You left out most of my statement I will copy it for you.
> I just answered SQM's question. I never demanded anything.You can stop cramming your hate down my throat. You would be a good Christian killer. Why don't you move to another country that isn't a Christian nation? You said you were Catholic.Last time I heard Catholics believe in Jesus. So which is it for today? How is your hate any different that the extremist Islamic groups? I always speak the truth.
> It is your choice. Heaven or Hell. You are on top of the fence. Get on one side or the other


I'm really trying to restrain myself here, CB. Suffice it to say that I don't believe He favors labeling anyone a potential "Christian killer" in a public forum (or in private, for that matter). Nor to I think he finds prayers that someone the petitioner dislikes be "convicted" of their sins especially pleasing.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Here is a song from my favorite Jew.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl1zUqynBVs


He's not a Jew. He's an apostate. It figures that your "favorite Jew" isn't a Jew.

Would you like a song from my favorite Christian? (How can you resist that face?) "And so the best that I can do is pray":


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Go ahead mock His Name. His Love for you is still the same.


Whose name have I mocked? It was you I was mocking, nobody else. And I've had about all I can take of Christian love. If it's "still the same" as it was when I was growing up, I'm ready for a fight.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Watch out. When CB prays, a lot of blood gets thrown. If she's going to pray about you, keep the Shout spray bottle nearby.


Forewarned is forearmed, Purl. Thanks. Sure proves my point, though, that the mindset of extremist Muslims and extremist Christians is not all that different. If anyone dares to contradict them or question their believes they fly into a rage. Salamm Rushdie got a _futwa_ (death sentence) for besmirching Muhammad's name and now CB's praying to the Lord that I get mine. Two sides of the same coin, I'm afraid.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> He's not a Jew. He's an apostate. It figures that your "favorite Jew" isn't a Jew.
> 
> Would you like a song from my favorite Christian? (How can you resist that face?) "And so the best that I can do is pray":
> 
> ...


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Forewarned is forearmed, Purl. Thanks. Sure proves my point, though, that the mindset of extremist Muslims and extremist Christians is not all that different. If anyone dares to contradict them or question their believes they fly into a rage. Salamm Rushdie got a _futwa_ (death sentence) for besmirching Allah's name and now CB's praying to the Lord that I get mine. Two sides of the same coin, I'm afraid.


Your choice Heaven or hell. You chose.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Bumpala - YouTube Moishe Oysher - my favorite Jewish singer.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm really trying to restrain myself here, CB. Suffice it to say that I don't believe He favors labeling anyone a potential "Christian killer" in a public forum (or in private, for that matter). Nor to I think he finds prayers that someone the petitioner dislikes be "convicted" of their sins especially pleasing.


You have never been known for restrain. Your choice , Heaven or hell.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You have never been known for restrain. Your choice , Heaven or hell.


Can I offer Mos another choice - the great Nothingness?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Decisiveness

God doesn't like fence sitting, especially in spiritual matters. It's in the Bible, Revelation 3:15-16, TLB. "I know you wellyou are neither hot nor cold; I wish you were one or the other! But since you are merely lukewarm, I will spit you out of My mouth!"

Be firm in your commitments. It's in the Bible, Isaiah 50:7, . "Because the Sovereign Lord helps me, I will not be disgraced. Therefore have I set my face like flint, and I know I will not be put to shame."

Do not be distracted by side issues. It's in the Bible, Jeremiah 32:38-39, . "They will be my people, and I will be their God. I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear Me for their own good and the good of their children after them."

Make up your mind about serving the Lord. It's in the Bible, Joshua 24:15, . "But if you are unwilling to obey the Lord, then decide today whom you will obey. Will it be the gods of your ancestors beyond the Euphrates or the gods of the Amorites here in this land? But as for me and my family, we will serve the Lord."


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Your choice Heaven or hell. You chose.


Who would want to choose your brand of heaven or hell? Go prosthelytize somewhere else.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> Can I offer Mos another choice - the great Nothingness?


No. Not a joke. Eternity is a long time.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Who would want to choose your brand of heaven or hell? Go prosthelytize somewhere else.


 God Bless you Wombie.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> No. Not a joke. Eternity is a long time.


Hardly a joke. Many of us believe in neither Heaven nor Hell. We don't worry about an afterlife. We are more concerned about this life and doing well to others.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> No. Not a joke. Eternity is a long time.


Not as long as this weekend.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Not as long as this weekend.


 :XD: Needed that.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You have never been known for restrain. Your choice , Heaven or hell.


Does anyone believe this? Somehow I've gone back in time and am standing in the dock before Cotton Mather.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Does anyone believe this? Somehow I've gone back in time and am standing in the dock before Cotton Mather.


 :XD: ...and that too!


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Does anyone believe this? Somehow I've gone back in time and am standing in the dock before Cotton Mather.


You are so funny.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Poor Purl said:
> 
> 
> > She's living right now in a country that isn't a Christian nation![/quote
> ...


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> Nu? Mr. Wilbur is my competition?


I have to take back my post. Jesus is my favorite Jew. Paul Wilbur the second and then Suzie Q.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> This is part of an interview with former US Ambassador to Iraq:
> 
> EMMA ALBERICI: Our Defence Minister says Australia is reluctant to get involved in Iraq militarily until an inclusive government has been formed under the leadership of the new Prime Minister, Haider al-Abadi. How do we know the new government in Iraq will be any more inclusive than the last one?
> 
> ...


Thanks for trying to get us back on topic, Ms. Wombat.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I have no idea (I don't keep files on people). But the whole United States of America is not a Christian nation. It's a nation with a lot of Christians, but that's not the same thing, though you want to claim that it is.


Show me I am wrong. Just because you deny it is a Christian nation doesn't mean it is not.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Show me I am wrong. Just because you deny it is a Christian nation doesn't mean it is not.


1 in 5 Americans is not a Christian.

You're wrong.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Thanks for trying to get us back on topic, Ms. Wombat.


You are very welcome.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Forewarned is forearmed, Purl. Thanks. Sure proves my point, though, that the mindset of extremist Muslims and extremist Christians is not all that different. If anyone dares to contradict them or question their believes they fly into a rage. Salamm Rushdie got a _futwa_ (death sentence) for besmirching Muhammad's name and now CB's praying to the Lord that I get mine. Two sides of the same coin, I'm afraid.


I think the mindset of all extremist (or fanatical) religionists is essentially the same. Except that the ones who are Jewish don't try to convert non-Jews; they just think all Jews should believe what they believe. But they'd be happy so see all women in burkas.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Ha Ha. I was expecting The Osmonds .


Mormons? Heaven forfend!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Bumpala - YouTube Moishe Oysher - my favorite Jewish singer.


Good choice. He's even cute. And he sang better than Eddie Fisher.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> 1 in 5 Americans is not a Christian.
> 
> You're wrong.


You mean 4 are Christians and 1 is not? Majority rules.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Who would want to choose your brand of heaven or hell? Go prosthelytize somewhere else.


Wait, eventually she loses her temper and it gets really funny.

(BTW, as an adherent of the Great Proofreader, I need to point out that your word, _prosthelytize_, is a wonderful combination of _proselytize_ and _prosthetic_, which I guess defines it as "attempting to convert someone by sticking something artificial onto them," exactly what CB is doing here.)


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Not as long as this weekend.


 or as long as her messages make it seem.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

http://search.aol.com/aol/search?&q=Percentage+of+Christians+in+America&tb_oid=29-03-2014&s_it=customfirefoxright-ff&tb_mrud=17-06-2014&tb_uuid=5801CC7D6BA904D3855A08BDD31E8526
September 1, 2014

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Report 1: Religious Affiliation
Report 2: Religious Beliefs & Practices / Social & Political Views

Printable Version (5 pages) 
Summary of Key Findings
Major Religious Traditions in the U.S.

An extensive new survey by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life details statistics on religion in America and explores the shifts taking place in the U.S. religious landscape. Based on interviews with more than 35,000 Americans age 18 and older, the U.S. Religious Landscape Survey finds that religious affiliation in the U.S. is both very diverse and extremely fluid.
Key Findings and Statistics on Religion in America

More than one-quarter of American adults (28%) have left the faith in which they were raised in favor of another religion - or no religion at all. If change in affiliation from one type of Protestantism to another is included, 44% of adults have either switched religious affiliation, moved from being unaffiliated with any religion to being affiliated with a particular faith, or dropped any connection to a specific religious tradition altogether.

The survey finds that the number of people who say they are unaffiliated with any particular faith today (16.1%) is more than double the number who say they were not affiliated with any particular religion as children. Among Americans ages 18-29, one-in-four say they are not currently affiliated with any particular religion.

The Landscape Survey confirms that the United States is on the verge of becoming a minority Protestant country; the number of Americans who report that they are members of Protestant denominations now stands at barely 51%. Moreover, the Protestant population is characterized by significant internal diversity and fragmentation, encompassing hundreds of different denominations loosely grouped around three fairly distinct religious traditions - evangelical Protestant churches (26.3% of the overall adult population), mainline Protestant churches (18.1%) and historically black Protestant churches (6.9%).

While those Americans who are unaffiliated with any particular religion have seen the greatest growth in numbers as a result of changes in affiliation, Catholicism has experienced the greatest net losses as a result of affiliation changes. While nearly one-in-three Americans (31%) were raised in the Catholic faith, today fewer than one-in-four (24%) describe themselves as Catholic. These losses would have been even more pronounced were it not for the offsetting impact of immigration. The Landscape Survey finds that among the foreign-born adult population, Catholics outnumber Protestants by nearly a two-to-one margin (46% Catholic vs. 24% Protestant); among native-born Americans, on the other hand, the statistics show that Protestants outnumber Catholics by an even larger margin (55% Protestant vs. 21% Catholic). Immigrants are also disproportionately represented among several world religions in the U.S., including Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism.

Although there are about half as many Catholics in the U.S. as Protestants, the number of Catholics nearly rivals the number of members of evangelical Protestant churches and far exceeds the number of members of both mainline Protestant churches and historically black Protestant churches. The U.S. also includes a significant number of members of the third major branch of global Christianity - Orthodoxy - whose adherents now account for 0.6% of the U.S. adult population. American Christianity also includes sizeable numbers of Mormons (1.7% of the adult population), Jehovah's Witnesses (0.7%) and other Christian groups (0.3%).

Like the other major groups, people who are unaffiliated with any particular religion (16.1%) also exhibit remarkable internal diversity. Although one-quarter of this group consists of those who describe themselves as either atheist or agnostic (1.6% and 2.4% of the adult population overall, respectively), the majority of the unaffiliated population (12.1% of the adult population overall) is made up of people who simply describe their religion as "nothing in particular." This group, in turn, is fairly evenly divided between the "secular unaffiliated," that is, those who say that religion is not important in their lives (6.3% of the adult population), and the "religious unaffiliated," that is, those who say that religion is either somewhat important or very important in their lives (5.8% of the overall adult population).

Even smaller religions in the U.S. reflect considerable internal diversity. For instance, most Jews (1.7% of the overall adult population) identify with one of three major groups: Reform, Conservative or Orthodox Judaism. Similarly, more than half of Buddhists (0.7% of the overall adult population) belong to one of three major groups within Buddhism: Zen, Theravada or Tibetan Buddhism. Muslims (0.6% of the overall adult population) divide primarily into two major groups: Sunni and Shia.
A Very Competitive Religious Marketplace
A Note on Defining Religious Affiliation

The survey finds that constant movement characterizes the American religious marketplace, as every major religious group is simultaneously gaining and losing adherents. Those that are growing as a result of religious change are simply gaining new members at a faster rate than they are losing members. Conversely, those that are declining in number because of religious change simply are not attracting enough new members to offset the number of adherents who are leaving those particular faiths.

To illustrate this point, one need only look at the biggest gainer in this religious competition - the unaffiliated group. People moving into the unaffiliated category outnumber those moving out of the unaffiliated group by more than a three-to-one margin. At the same time, however, a substantial number of people (nearly 4% of the overall adult population) say that as children they were unaffiliated with any particular religion but have since come to identify with a religious group. This means that more than half of people who were unaffiliated with any particular religion as a child now say that they are associated with a religious group. In short, the Landscape Survey shows that the unaffiliated population has grown despite having one of the lowest retention rates of all "religious" groups.

Another example of the dynamism of the American religious scene is the experience of the Catholic Church. Other surveys - such as the General Social Surveys, conducted by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago since 1972 - find that the Catholic share of the U.S. adult population has held fairly steady in recent decades at around 25%. What this apparent stability obscures, however, is the large number of people who have left the Catholic Church. Approximately one-third of the survey respondents who say they were raised Catholic no longer describe themselves as Catholic. This means that roughly 10% of all Americans are former Catholics. These losses, however, have been partly offset by the number of people who have changed their affiliation to Catholicism (2.6% of the adult population) but more importantly by the disproportionately high number of Catholics among immigrants to the U.S. The result is that the overall percentage of the population that identifies as Catholic has remained fairly stable.

In addition to detailing the current religious makeup of the U.S. and describing the dynamic changes in religious affiliation, the findings from the Landscape Survey also provide important clues about the future direction of religious affiliation in the U.S. By detailing the age distribution of different religious groups, for instance, the study's statistics on religion show that more than six-in-ten Americans age 70 and older (62%) are Protestant but that this number is only about four-in-ten (43%) among Americans ages 18-29. Conversely, young adults ages 18-29 are much more likely than those age 70 and older to say that they are not affiliated with any particular religion (25% vs. 8%). If these generational patterns persist, recent declines in the number of Protestants and growth in the size of the unaffiliated population may continue.

Major changes in the makeup of American Catholicism also loom on the horizon. Latinos, who already account for roughly one-in-three adult Catholics overall, may account for an even larger share of U.S. Catholics in the future. For while Latinos represent roughly one-in-eight U.S. Catholics age 70 and older (12%), they account for nearly half of all Catholics ages 18-29 (45%).

Finally, the Landscape Survey documents how immigration is adding even more diversity to the American religious quilt. For example, Muslims, roughly two-thirds of whom are immigrants, now account for roughly 0.6% of the U.S. adult population; and Hindus, more than eight-in-ten of whom are foreign born, now account for approximately 0.4% of the population.
Other Survey Highlights

Other highlights in the report include

Men are significantly more likely than women to claim no religious affiliation. Nearly one-in-five men say they have no formal religious affiliation, compared with roughly 13% of women.
Among people who are married, nearly four-in-ten (37%) are married to a spouse with a different religious affiliation. (This figure includes Protestants who are married to another Protestant from a different denominational family, such as a Baptist who is married to a Methodist.) Hindus and Mormons are the most likely to be married (78% and 71%, respectively) and to be married to someone of the same religion (90% and 83%, respectively).
Mormons and Muslims are the groups with the largest families; more than one-in-five Mormon adults and 15% of Muslim adults in the U.S. have three or more children living at home.
The Midwest most closely resembles the religious makeup of the overall population. The South, by a wide margin, has the heaviest concentration of members of evangelical Protestant churches. The Northeast has the greatest concentration of Catholics, and the West has the largest proportion of unaffiliated people, including the largest proportion of atheists and agnostics.
Of all the major racial and ethnic groups in the United States, black Americans are the most likely to report a formal religious affiliation. Even among those blacks who are unaffiliated, three-in-four belong to the "religious unaffiliated" category (that is, they say that religion is either somewhat or very important in their lives), compared with slightly more than one-third of the unaffiliated population overall.
Nearly half of Hindus in the U.S., one-third of Jews and a quarter of Buddhists have obtained post-graduate education, compared with only about one-in-ten of the adult population overall. Hindus and Jews are also much more likely than other groups to report high income levels.
People not affiliated with any particular religion stand out for their relative youth compared with other religious traditions. Among the unaffiliated, 31% are under age 30 and 71% are under age 50. Comparable numbers for the overall adult population are 20% and 59%, respectively.
By contrast, members of mainline Protestant churches and Jews are older, on average, than members of other groups. Roughly half of Jews and members of mainline churches are age 50 and older, compared with approximately four-in-ten American adults overall.
In sharp contrast to Islam and Hinduism, Buddhism in the U.S. is primarily made up of native-born adherents, whites and converts. Only one-in-three American Buddhists describe their race as Asian, while nearly three-in-four Buddhists say they are converts to Buddhism.
Jehovah's Witnesses have the lowest retention rate of any religious tradition. Only 37% of all those who say they were raised as Jehovah's Witnesses still identify themselves as Jehovah's Witnesses.
Members of Baptist churches account for one-third of all Protestants and close to one-fifth of the total U.S. adult population. Baptists also account for nearly two-thirds of members of historically black Protestant churches.

About the Survey

These are some of the key findings of the Pew Forum's U.S. Religious Landscape Survey, which draws primarily on a new nationwide survey conducted from May 8 to Aug. 13, 2007, among a representative sample of more than 35,000 adults in the U.S., with additional over-samples of Eastern Orthodox Christians, Buddhists and Hindus. The study also takes advantage of the 2007 survey of American Muslims ("Muslim Americans: Middle Class and Mostly Mainstream"), which was conducted by the Forum in partnership with its sister projects, the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, the Pew Hispanic Center and the Pew Global Attitudes Project. In total, these surveys included interviews with more than 36,000 Americans.

Detailed data tables provide extensive demographic information on the 14 largest religious traditions, 12 large Protestant denominational families and 25 individual Protestant denominations in the United States.
Full Report: Full Report (143 pages)
Introduction:

Background on the Report
Summary of Key Findings:

Survey Highlights in the Report
Chapter 1:

The Religious Composition of the United States
Chapter 2:

Changes in Americans' Religious Affiliation
Chapter 3:

Religious Affiliation and Demographic Groups
Appendix 1:

Detailed Data Tables
Appendix 2:

Classification of Protestant Denominations
Appendix 3:

A Brief History of Religion and the U.S. Census


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Does anyone believe this? Somehow I've gone back in time and am standing in the dock before Cotton Mather.


Just wait until she puts you in the stocks and we come and throw tomatoes at you.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You are so funny.


She is, isn't she? Not as funny as you, but pretty funny anyway.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You mean 4 are Christians and 1 is not? Majority rules.


Fine by me. 7 out of 10 on this earth are not Christian. So don a headscarf, invite a cow into your home, or fire up the incense and make tracks for the nearest monastery. Your choice.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Show me I am wrong. Just because you deny it is a Christian nation doesn't mean it is not.


You may not know it, but it's not possible to prove a negative. You show me that you're right.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Just wait until she puts you in the stocks and we come and throw tomatoes at you.


Better than dangling from the end of a rope. I should count my blessings. :roll:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You mean 4 are Christians and 1 is not? Majority rules.


Maybe in a democracy, but don't you people (i.e., right-wingers) deny that the US is a democracy?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Wait, eventually she loses her temper and it gets really funny.
> 
> (BTW, as an adherent of the Great Proofreader, I need to point out that your word, _prosthelytize_, is a wonderful combination of _proselytize_ and _prosthetic_, which I guess defines it as "attempting to convert someone by sticking something artificial onto them," exactly what CB is doing here.)


Woops! That 'h' gets me every time. Love your interpretation of it's meaning. Very clever.

:XD:


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Fine by me. 7 out of 10 on this earth are not Christian. So don a headscarf, invite a cow into your home, or fire up the incense and make tracks for the nearest monastery. Your choice.


We were talking US . I am right. I have already chosen. His Name is Prince of Peace, Lord of Lords.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Woops! That 'h' gets me every time. Love your interpretation of it's meaning. Very clever.
> 
> :XD:


You will see how funny it is in hell. Won't be any mocking or laughing there for you.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> http://search.aol.com/aol/search?&q=Percentage+of+Christians+in+America&tb_oid=29-03-2014&s_it=customfirefoxright-ff&tb_mrud=17-06-2014&tb_uuid=5801CC7D6BA904D3855A08BDD31E8526
> September 1, 2014


 So? This still doesn't make it a "Christian nation," just a nation with a Christian majority.

And be truthful: did you read that entire thing? or did you just post the whole thing to be annoying?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> We were talking US . I am right. I have already chosen. His Name is Prince of Peace, Lord of Lords.


Your choice. Your right. Trying to force your choice on others is wrong.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> http://search.aol.com/aol/search?&q=Percentage+of+Christians+in+America&tb_oid=29-03-


Geez Louise. Did you have to post this twice?

Couldn't you do what decent people do and delete the whole thing and apologize for the duplication?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> So? This still doesn't make it a "Christian nation," just a nation with a Christian majority.


Absolutely ridiculous. If the majority rules in a country (as CB believes) then Christians in Syria and Iraq have no right to complain when their churches are burned down.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Fine by me. 7 out of 10 on this earth are not Christian. So don a headscarf, invite a cow into your home, or fire up the incense and make tracks for the nearest monastery. Your choice.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Better than dangling from the end of a rope. I should count my blessings. :roll:


 :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You will see how funny it is in hell. Won't be any mocking or laughing there for you.


I can see her little furry legs shaking in their Uggs.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> We were talking US . I am right. I have already chosen. His Name is Prince of Peace, Lord of Lords.


That's not his name; that may be what he is, but it's not his name. See the entry "Haddock's Eyes" in wikipedia, which points out the difference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haddocks'_Eyes


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Absolutely ridiculous. If the majority rules in a country (as CB believes) then Christians in Syria and Iraq have no right to complain when their churches are burned down.


And Jews anywhere outside Israel have no right to do anything. Which is why keeping Israel Israel is so important. (Attempt #2 to get us back on topic.)


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> And Jews anywhere outside Israel have no right to do anything. Which is why keeping Israel Israel is so important. (Attempt #2 to get us back on topic.)


Can't fault you for that, Purl. Ugh! what an exchange _that_ was.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Everyone needs to get ready Jesus is coming soon.


I have to challenge you on this one, CB.

No completely satisfactory resolution of these differences in the Bible has ever been found, and the timing of the Second Coming has been a subject of hot debate within Christianity from the beginning. Jesus, Himself, said no one would be able to predict exactly when He would return:

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come." (NIV, Mark 13:32-33)

The event, when it happens, will be swift and unexpected:

So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. (NIV, Matthew 24:43-44)

Over the past 2000 years there have been countless attempts to interpret current events according to the signs in the Bible. There have been innumerable predictions that the Second Coming was imminent. All have been wrong.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I have to challenge you on this one, CB.
> 
> No completely satisfactory resolution of these differences in the Bible has ever been found, and the timing of the Second Coming has been a subject of hot debate within Christianity from the beginning. Jesus, Himself, said no one would be able to predict exactly when He would return:
> 
> ...


But they didn't have CB around to tell them what's what.

And hi, Patty. So good of you to try to teach her some sense. So futile, also.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You all don't get her point. Believe or not, he's the real thing, and everyone who denies him can - and will - go to hell.


Let's see. Jews are supposed to be your god's "chosen people." We are continually told that. Jews don't believe in the divinity of Christ. So, according to you, they are going to hell. How, exactly, does that work? Your god's chosen people are going to hell? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Let's see. Jews are supposed to be your god's "chosen people." We are continually told that. Jews don't believe in the divinity of Christ. So, according to you, they are going to hell. How, exactly, does that work? Your god's chosen people are going to hell? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it.


I hope this was meant for CB. I was being sarcastic.

She accepts as Jews those who believe in the divinity of Jesus (whom Jews don't accept as Jews), so her rear is covered on this point,


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I have to challenge you on this one, CB.
> No completely satisfactory resolution of these differences in the Bible has ever been found, and the timing of the Second Coming has been a subject of hot debate within Christianity from the beginning. Jesus, Himself, said no one would be able to predict exactly when He would return:
> 
> "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come." (NIV, Mark 13:32-33)
> Patty I agree with you.What is to challenge ?I agree with you about not knowing the day or the hour. But we are living in the last days.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Last Days

Non-Christians find it hard to believe we are living in the last days of earth's history. It's in the Bible, II Peter 3:3-4, TLB. "First, I want to remind you that in the last days there will come scoffers who will do every wrong they can think of, and laugh at the truth. This will be their line of argument: 'So Jesus promised to come back, did He? Then where is He? He'll never come! Why, as far back as anyone can remember everything has remained exactly as it was since the first day of creation.'"

The coming of the Antichrist is a sign of the end. It's in the Bible, I John 2:18, TLB. "Dear children, this world's last hour has come. You have heard about the Antichrist who is comingthe one who is against Christand already many such persons have appeared. This makes us all the more certain that the end of the world is near."

Did Jesus say when the end would come? It's in the Bible, Matthew 24:14, NIV. "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Men posing as Jesus will try to deceive people in the last days. It's in the Bible, Matthew 24:23-24, NIV. "At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!&#146; or 'There He is!&#146; do not believe it. For false Christ's and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electif that were possible."

There will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars. It's in the Bible, Matthew 24:29-30, NIV. "Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory."

What moral conditions will be characteristic of society in the last days? It's in the Bible, II Timothy 3:1-5, NIV. "But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of Godhaving a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them."

An increase in knowledge and travel is a sign of the last days. It's in the Bible, Daniel 12:4, TLB. "But Daniel, keep this prophecy a secret; seal it up so that it will not be understood until the end times, when travel and education shall be vastly increased!"

What other signs of the last days does the Bible mention? It's in the Bible, Luke 21:25-26, NIV. "There will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken."

Talk of peace and safety are a sign of the last days. It's in the Bible, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, NIV. "For you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, 'Peace and safety,' destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."

What are people to do when they see these things taking place? It's in the Bible, Matthew 24:42-44, TLB. "So be prepared, for you don't know what day your Lord is coming. Just as a man can prevent trouble from thieves by keeping watch for them, so you can avoid trouble by always being ready for My unannounced return."


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Love it the way people set up a mythical being and then subscribe attributes that support their elitism. I believe this condition is in the DSM under psychosis and delusional thinking. But as long as CB and her ilk are happy, that can be----UNTIL they start to impose their fantasies on others. Usually those rigid, narrow impositions result in totalitarian and fascistic societies. And woman always fare badly in them. 

Why would anyone subscribe to a belief system that defines you as less than.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Love it the way people set up a mythical being and then subscribe attributes that support their elitism. I believe this condition is in the DSM under psychosis and delusional thinking. But as long as CB and her ilk are happy, that can be----UNTIL they start to impose their fantasies on others. Usually those rigid, narrow impositions result in totalitarian and fascistic societies. And woman always fare badly in them.
> 
> Why would anyone subscribe to a belief system that defines you as less than.


I am less because Jesus is more . Yes Amen!


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

damemary said:


> I'm tempted to agree on this. I don't think of the USA as the police of the world. No one from inside asked for our help. The rest of the world refuses to join in. And no one is going to thank us for interfering. Protect our borders and let others worry about theirs.


 :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Love it the way people set up a mythical being and then subscribe attributes that support their elitism. I believe this condition is in the DSM under psychosis and delusional thinking. But as long as CB and her ilk are happy, that can be----UNTIL they start to impose their fantasies on others. Usually those rigid, narrow impositions result in totalitarian and fascistic societies. And woman always fare badly in them.
> 
> Why would anyone subscribe to a belief system that defines you as less than.


Apparently so. Just look at the message right after yours.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

SQM said:


> But there are so many definitions of what god is. Which one is going to save humankind?


Right!


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I only speak the Truth. Take it or leave it. Your choice. Heaven or Hell. I take Heaven.


Uhhhhh, it's not a given. Even for bible thumpers.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Uhhhhh, it's not a given. Even for bible thumpers.


Except for CB, who only speaks the truth, unlike the rest of us.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Show me I am wrong. Just because you deny it is a Christian nation doesn't mean it is not.


Did you ever earn a 5th grade education?


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Uhhhhh, it's not a given. Even for bible thumpers.


If you ask Jesus to forgive you it is a given. I am not a thumper. I am a Believer.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Did you ever earn a high school education?


Did you?


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> If you ask Jesus to forgive you it is a given. I am not a thumper. I am a Believer.


Ok, but don't force your religious beliefs on others.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Except for CB, who only speaks the truth, unlike the rest of us.


I thought you didn't make fun of Christians. That is all you have done to me. :shock:


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Ok, but don't force your religious beliefs on others.


You can unwatch. Sqm asked me a question and I answered her . It went from there. Besides you are not the boss of me. :lol:


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Except for CB, who only speaks the truth, unlike the rest of us.


Ooop. I forgot. :twisted:


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Did you?


You just proved you didn't. Lol.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You can unwatch. Sqm asked me a question and I answered her . It went from there. Besides you are not the boss of me. :lol:


You're so laughable.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> You're so laughable.


. ♥


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I thought you didn't make fun of Christians. That is all you have done to me. :shock:


I make fun of anyone who makes herself look ridiculous by saying outrageous things. You could be an atheist, a Muslim, a Jew, a pagan, even -yes- a Christian, and if you say foolish things I'll make fun of you.

If I said I didn't make fun of Christians, I'd clearly be lying. I believe what I said was that I didn't make fun of Christianity or of Christians in general. Particular Christians are a whole different story. You haven't seen me make fun of Susanmos2000, have you? She doesn't use her religion to make herself ridiculous. I'm afraid that by trying to force your beliefs on others and insisting that you are absolutely right (and we who don't believe as you do are wrong), you make yourself laughable.

I know that KPG thinks I'm anti-Christian, but I'm not, as anyone not under her sway can tell. I'm anti- anyone who uses religion as if it were a get-out-of-hell-free card.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> You just proved you didn't. Lol.


You're not the boss of her? You're right, she proved it!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> You're so laughable.


Gee, ute, you're so succinct. It took me 20 minutes to say the same thing.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> You're not the boss of her? You're right, she proved it!


I guess neither one of you can take a joke. Who is acting like a child calling me names?


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I make fun of anyone who makes herself look ridiculous by saying outrageous things. You could be an atheist, a Muslim, a Jew, a pagan, even -yes- a Christian, and if you say foolish things I'll make fun of you.
> 
> If I said I didn't make fun of Christians, I'd clearly be lying. I believe what I said was that I didn't make fun of Christianity or of Christians in general. Particular Christians are a whole different story. You haven't seen me make fun of Susanmos2000, have you? She doesn't use her religion to make herself ridiculous. I'm afraid that by trying to force your beliefs on others and insisting that you are absolutely right (and we who don't believe as you do are wrong), you make yourself laughable.
> 
> I know that KPG thinks I'm anti-Christian, but I'm not, as anyone not under her sway can tell. I'm anti- anyone who uses religion as if it were a get-out-of-hell-free card.


I am not under anyone's sway. I have no religion I have faith. Two separate things.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I guess neither one of you can take a joke. Who is acting like a child calling me names?


What name?

And if you were joking, would I be justified in claiming that you make fun of Jews? (I really don't think you do, but if I follow your logic, I could claim that.)


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> What name?
> 
> And if you were joking, would I be justified in claiming that you make fun of Jews? (I really don't think you do, but if I follow your logic, I could claim that.)


What able laughable? Isn't that making fun of me?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I am not under anyone's sway. I have no religion I have faith. Two separate things.


Not entirely separate. You have faith in Jesus, but its expression is that of religion.

We're way off topic, and I'd like to stop this bickering. I hope you don't mind.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Not entirely separate. You have faith in Jesus, but its expression is that of religion.


To me it is . I hate religion. I am not religious. You put that label on me.


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## Llavaia (Oct 14, 2013)

This whole thread... Is this one of those KP jokes???? By the way..hi pearl.. You are so bright it is a pleasure to read your replies..


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> To me it is . I hate religion. I am not religious. You put that label on me.


Okay, now you said something really interesting. I'd be happy to drop such a label if you can explain the difference, as you see it.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> To me it is . I hate religion. I am not religious. You put that label on me.


What Bumps?????????? I thought you were a member of some church. Do you believe in the bible and Jesus without being part of a congregation? Why would you hate religion? As an atheist, I don't hate religion. I see the human need for it but I don't think it has any intellectual merit. Plus religion is a trouble-maker. But it does give people emotional comfort and community.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Okay, now you said something really interesting. I'd be happy to drop such a label if you can explain the difference, as you see it.


I would say I am spiritual because I try to live by the Spirit of the Holy Spirit that is in me. I have my faith in my Savior Jesus Christ. I try to live in love to my neighbors as myself. I know I have felled in my life and sinned. I asked for forgiveness . I sin every day because I have a sinful nature. I am forgiven but I still fell. I have grown up in church one denomination for about 34 years of my life. I find that religious to stay in one church or denomination . My dh and I have studied the Bible together and gone to different churchs to see different views so we can get the best of every thing in other denominations. I believe in God the Father, Jesus is the Son and the Holy Spirit is the comforter. I study the Word to see that I can keep myself on track with the right believes. If I followed one man's ministry that would be religious to me. I gather my believes from many teachers and studies. I can still learn from others but if it doesn't add up to the scriptures I will not believe. When I quote scriptures it is what I have learned in my life. I think maybe I am teaching others to see what I have learned. It is not thumping a Bible it is kind of my way of teaching. I have worked with children, youth and young adults all of my adult life. So maybe you see me childish but other see me as knowing the Word of God thru my faith and understanding of it. I believe to get to Heaven everyone has to ask forgiveness. Jesus is the only way I know that man can be saved so it is my faith or belief. Since I knit continental that is the way I would teach. I go by the way I know it.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> What Bumps?????????? I thought you were a member of some church. Do you believe in the bible and Jesus without being part of a congregation? Why would you hate religion? As an atheist, I don't hate religion. I see the human need for it but I don't think it has any intellectual merit. Plus religion is a trouble-maker. But it does give people emotional comfort and community.


I am a member of a church and am a part of a congregation. Read my other post.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Okay Bumps that is cool. I have looked at all varieties of Judaism - it was an interesting experience. You are what you are. (period)


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> Okay Bumps that is cool. I have looked at all varieties of Judaism - it was an interesting experience. You are what you are. (period)


Thanks.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Llavaia said:


> This whole thread... Is this one of those KP jokes???? By the way..hi pearl.. You are so bright it is a pleasure to read your replies..


Llavaia, what a nice surprise it is to see your smiling face here. At least, I assume you're smiling. This didn't start as a KP joke, but it's been hijacked, so I can't help kidding around.

I hope your summer was a good one. Kid married yet?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I would say I am spiritual because I try to live by the Spirit of the Holy Spirit that is in me. I have my faith in my Savior Jesus Christ. I try to live in love to my neighbors as myself. I know I have felled in my life and sinned. I asked for forgiveness . I sin every day because I have a sinful nature. I am forgiven but I still fell. I have grown up in church one denomination for about 34 years of my life. I find that religious to stay in one church or denomination . My dh and I have studied the Bible together and gone to different churchs to see different views so we can get the best of every thing in other denominations. I believe in God the Father, Jesus is the Son and the Holy Spirit is the comforter. I study the Word to see that I can keep myself on track with the right believes. If I followed one man's ministry that would be religious to me. I gather my believes from many teachers and studies. I can still learn from others but if it doesn't add up to the scriptures I will not believe. When I quote scriptures it is what I have learned in my life. I think maybe I am teaching others to see what I have learned. It is not thumping a Bible it is kind of my way of teaching. I have worked with children, youth and young adults all of my adult life. So maybe you see me childish but other see me as knowing the Word of God thru my faith and understanding of it. I believe to get to Heaven everyone has to ask forgiveness. Jesus is the only way I know that man can be saved so it is my faith or belief. Since I knit continental that is the way I would teach. I go by the way I know it.


Your last two sentences made me laugh, and did a lot to explain where you stand. I think I see how you distinguish between faith and religion, and I respect it. I still disagree with the things you believe in and would rather not have you try to draw me in to your faith, but I've always known you to be a true believer.

As for being childish, when you say things like "You're not the boss of me," without a smiley of some kind, what else am I to think? We're all childish and silly sometimes, and some of us are able to admit it. But it's not always easy to tell the difference between joking around and making fun of someone, so I ask forgiveness from you if I've hurt your feelings.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> What able laughable? Isn't that making fun of me?


I guess so, but in some ways I can't help thinking you earned it. Do you never make fun of me? I'm usually not hurt by things people say to me on KP, so I may not notice when I've hurt someone else. (I say "usually" because there's one person who has said things to me that didn't hurt me but were serious lies about me and my religion - which I do have, though it means something different to me.)


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Your last two sentences made me laugh, and did a lot to explain where you stand. I think I see how you distinguish between faith and religion, and I respect it. I still disagree with the things you believe in and would rather not have you try to draw me in to your faith, but I've always known you to be a true believer.
> 
> As for being childish, when you say things like "You're not the boss of me," without a smiley of some kind, what else am I to think? We're all childish and silly sometimes, and some of us are able to admit it. But it's not always easy to tell the difference between joking around and making fun of someone, so I ask forgiveness from you if I've hurt your feelings.


Thank you for letting me explain. I was kidding after I could see Ut4kp was getting mad at me. The "You are not the boss of me" is something my dd says to me kidding with me. I just thought it was funny. I did put a smiley face to show I was kidding. You have my forgiveness.
Thanks for your response back to me. I appreciate it. More than you know. I disagree with a lot of things also. That is why I am not religious.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I guess so, but in some ways I can't help thinking you earned it. Do you never make fun of me? I'm usually not hurt by things people say to me on KP, so I may not notice when I've hurt someone else. (I say "usually" because there's one person who has said things to me that didn't hurt me but were serious lies about me and my religion - which I do have, though it means something different to me.)


I am all for anyone laughing with me about me.But if someone calls me laughable about what I believe in it is hurtful. I am honest and believe I am truthful in what I believe. I laugh at myself all the time. I do funny things so I think I am funny.
I just want to share my faith with anyone that wants to hear it. I know I am full of sharing.I would say I am over zealous. But I don't want anyone to go to hell. There is no turning back afterwards. I am used to being around Christians so that is the way I am normally. Everyone knows it about me. I can't be someone else. I don't mean to step on anyone elses toes. It is not my goal in life. God has been good to me and I just get excited talking about Him. Kinda like people and their grandkids or kids or dogs or maybe husband. I would be stingy if I didn't share. It would be nice if we could share our faiths without fighting or attacking. The thread topic is things are heating up in the world and I just had to say why I think it is getting so hot.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I am all for anyone laughing with me about me.But if someone calls me laughable about what I believe in it is hurtful. I am honest and believe I am truthful in what I believe. I laugh at myself all the time. I do funny things so I think I am funny.
> I just want to share my faith with anyone that wants to hear it. I know I am full of sharing.I would say I am over zealous. But I don't want anyone to go to hell. There is no turning back afterwards. I am used to being around Christians so that is the way I am normally. Everyone knows it about me. I can't be someone else. I don't mean to step on anyone elses toes. It is not my goal in life. God has been good to me and I just get excited talking about Him. Kinda like people and their grandkids or kids or dogs or maybe husband. I would be stingy if I didn't share. It would be nice if we could share our faiths without fighting or attacking. The thread topic is things are heating up in the world and I just had to say why I think it is getting so hot.


One of your finest posts ever, Mrs. Bump. (Remember Mr. Bump?)

Actually my daughter was less than 3 when she muttered that famous line. I knew I was in for big trouble. Oy!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I just answered SQM's question. I never demanded anything.You can stop cramming your hate down my throat. You would be a good Christian killer. Why don't you move to another country that isn't a Christian nation? You said you were Catholic.Last time I heard Catholics believe in Jesus. So which is it for today? How is your hate any different that the extremist Islamic groups? I always speak the truth.
> It is your choice. Heaven or Hell. You are on top of the fence. Get on one side or the other.


changed my mind.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> One of your finest posts ever, Mrs. Bump. (Remember Mr. Bump?)
> 
> Actually my daughter was less than 3 when she muttered that famous line. I knew I was in for big trouble. Oy!


No who is Mr. Bump? What famous line? You are not the boss of me? That line? I don't remember where it came from.
Girls are sassy for sure.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I am all for anyone laughing with me about me.But if someone calls me laughable about what I believe in it is hurtful. I am honest and believe I am truthful in what I believe. I laugh at myself all the time. I do funny things so I think I am funny.
> I just want to share my faith with anyone that wants to hear it. I know I am full of sharing.I would say I am over zealous. But I don't want anyone to go to hell. There is no turning back afterwards. I am used to being around Christians so that is the way I am normally. Everyone knows it about me. I can't be someone else. I don't mean to step on anyone elses toes. It is not my goal in life. God has been good to me and I just get excited talking about Him. Kinda like people and their grandkids or kids or dogs or maybe husband. I would be stingy if I didn't share. It would be nice if we could share our faiths without fighting or attacking. The thread topic is things are heating up in the world and I just had to say why I think it is getting so hot.


 No one is laughing at you - you are truthful in your thoughts and beliefs. I know you are true to what you believe, more than most. You are true to yourself and what you believe. No one questions that. Certainly not me- I know that you are absolutely sure - and that not everyone is.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Mr. Bump is part of the children's book series called "Mr. Men", I think and Mr. Bump was my favorite. Yeah - you are not the boss of me- still gives me a dreadful chill when I read or hear it. Can you imagine a 2 and a half year old saying that. I think I retorted that she is free to feed and clothe herself then. I am sure that will be spoken of on the therapist's couch one day by her.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> Mr. Bump is part of the children's book series called "Mr. Men", I think and Mr. Bump was my favorite. Yeah - you are not the boss of me- still gives me a dreadful chill when I read or hear it. Can you imagine a 2 and a half year old saying that. I think I retorted that she is free to feed and clothe herself then. I am sure that will be spoken of on the therapist's couch one day by her.


I thought it came from Saturday Night Live or Seinfield. Ha.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I thought it came from Saturday Night Live or Seinfield. Ha.


The expression might have had its origins from one of those shows - I only know I will never figure out how my baby daughter picked it up. (Of course I do - from some little ratling at her nursery school.)


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> The expression might have had its origins from one of those shows - I only know I will never figure out how my baby daughter picked it up. (Of course I do - from some little ratling at her nursery school.)


Kids do pick up stuff. They hear it all. Even stuff we don't hear. Is she your only child?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

yeah she is my only - 31 and working at a large digital marketing firm. Do you have any?


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> yeah she is my only - 31 and working at a large digital marketing firm. Do you have any?


I know you are proud of her. Yes I got started early . I have a dd. She is 41, son 38 and my youngest son is 36. They were so close together they almost killed me trying to keep up with them. Dh worked out of town alot so it was like I was the only parent. Or seemed that way. Five grands 4 boys and 1 girl.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I know you are proud of her. Yes I got started early . I have a dd. She is 41, son 38 and my youngest son is 36. They were so close together they almost killed me trying to keep up with them. Dh worked out of town alot so it was like I was the only parent. Or seemed that way. Five grands 4 boys and 1 girl.


You seem to have a wonderful family and how lucky you are to be a GM. I was killed by just one, and ex-man was working late so I was alone with a little toughie.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Excellent use of humor.



Poor Purl said:


> I make fun of anyone who makes herself look ridiculous by saying outrageous things. You could be an atheist, a Muslim, a Jew, a pagan, even -yes- a Christian, and if you say foolish things I'll make fun of you.
> 
> If I said I didn't make fun of Christians, I'd clearly be lying. I believe what I said was that I didn't make fun of Christianity or of Christians in general. Particular Christians are a whole different story. You haven't seen me make fun of Susanmos2000, have you? She doesn't use her religion to make herself ridiculous. I'm afraid that by trying to force your beliefs on others and insisting that you are absolutely right (and we who don't believe as you do are wrong), you make yourself laughable.
> 
> I know that KPG thinks I'm anti-Christian, but I'm not, as anyone not under her sway can tell. I'm anti- anyone who uses religion as if it were a get-out-of-hell-free card.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You, my dear, are calling names down upon yourself.



Country Bumpkins said:


> I guess neither one of you can take a joke. Who is acting like a child calling me names?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Good one!



Country Bumpkins said:


> I thought it came from Saturday Night Live or Seinfield. Ha.


 :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Family is a blessing. It's something else when they're in their terrible 2's or the dreaded teen age years. IMO



Country Bumpkins said:


> I know you are proud of her. Yes I got started early . I have a dd. She is 41, son 38 and my youngest son is 36. They were so close together they almost killed me trying to keep up with them. Dh worked out of town alot so it was like I was the only parent. Or seemed that way. Five grands 4 boys and 1 girl.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

PoorPurl--I get very tired of these fundamentalist, i-know-it-all about how to live people who keep trying to hijack every serious discussion here. If we were at a party, they would be left standing alone in the corner talking to themselves. Why do people pander to their narcissistic efforts to control conversations and turn all into their religious proselytizing. The only way to deal with them is to not respond at all. Personally, I find this constant talk about god and jesus more than distasteful. I find it downright rude when it is used to coopt all other discussion which is what always happens. These people cannot accept that others are not interested or wish to talk about other things. Why don't the countrybumpkins begin their own discussion where they can talk about their religion all they want. Of course it would be pretty boring since they don't talk about anything. Their goal is to interrupt everyone else. Rude, just plain rude!

If you want to get back to some meaningful discussion, let's do it. I am much more concerned about the propaganda of the West about Russia and its moving towards and invasion of that country. I am much more concerned about how the US hegemonic goals are being foisted on all other nations and international agencies supporting dictatorships, neo-nazis, violent fundamentalists world wide.


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## Llavaia (Oct 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Llavaia, what a nice surprise it is to see your smiling face here. At least, I assume you're smiling. This didn't start as a KP joke, but it's been hijacked, so I can't help kidding around.
> 
> I hope your summer was a good one. Kid married yet?


Yes I was smiling...gotta keep smiling or it starts to look like Jonestown around here..I try to inject a note of levity ... I get very upset when one's religion or lifestyle is attacked... I just don't get it..I am very simple that way..no one is better than anyone else and all religions are equal...see very simple. I was disturbed by the hits you took..sorry .. I hope your blood pressure didn't go up too much! And yes ..kids are married.. Thank God .. It's like a monkey off my back.. Now they can bitch and moan to their spouses...take care sweet one.
Luci


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> http://www.9news.com.au/World/2014/08/30/19/39/Saudi-king-warns-West-will-be-next-terrorism-target
> 
> When the King of Saudi Arabia issues a warning to the west about encroaching terrorism then isn't it time for the west to galvanize and end this 'cancer' calling itself ISIS before it's too late?
> 
> ...


This is a thoughtful article from the National Memo:
To Defeat ISIS, Ignore Partisan Alarmists And Send Smart Diplomats

National Memo, September 2, 2014 6:00 am Category: Featured Post

To Defeat ISIS, Ignore Partisan Alarmists And Send Smart Diplomats
It is entirely appropriate that the appalling crimes of the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, which openly declares genocidal intentions, have inspired demands for forceful action to destroy the terrorist entity. Impatient politicians and belligerent pundits express frustration with President Obama because he isnt bombing more sites or dispatching U.S. troops to Iraq or expanding the conflict into Syria  or just heeding their urgent advice, immediately.

Now any or all of those policies may eventually prove necessary, after careful consideration and consultation with Americas allies. But the president would be wiser to do nothing than to simply parrot the prescriptions of his neoconservative critics. And he would be wiser still to keep in mind that the past enthusiasms and errors of those critics are the underlying causes of the predicament that he and the civilized world confront today.

The undeniable reality is that there would be no ISIS (and no crisis) if the dubious neoconservative desire to invade Iraq had been duly ignored in 2003.

A jihadi movement capable of winning support from oppressed Sunni Muslims in that ravaged country arose directly from the violent overthrow of Saddam Hussein and the installation, under American auspices, of a sectarian Shiite regime. Not only was that regime unwilling to unite Iraqis into a democratic order, but its political allegiance pointed toward Iran rather than the United States.

For anyone who listened to neoconservative experts such as William Kristol, the editor of the Weekly Standard, these ruinous developments would have come as a wicked surprise. Soon after the U.S. invasion, after all, Kristol had assured us that religious and ethnic divisions among Iraqis would present no significant problems whatsoever. Theres been a certain amount of pop sociology in America, he told National Public Radio in April 2003, that the Shia cant get along with the Sunni and the Shia in Iraq just want to establish some kind of Islamic fundamentalist regime. Theres almost no evidence of that at all. Iraqs always been very secular.

And the weapons of mass destruction were just around the corner, and the war would pay for itself with Iraqi oil, and the Iranians would rise up next to throw off the mullahs, while the entire Mideast underwent a miraculous transformation under the benign influence of the Bush doctrine, and blah, blah, blah

By this point, it seems obvious to nearly everyone just how absurdly wrong all those predictions were. Just as salient, however, is that the Iraq war  and the failure of diplomacy that it represents  was the culmination of an enormous squandered opportunity, whose harmful consequences continue today. In the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, the world rallied around the United States, from Europe to Asia; even the Iranians volunteered to help us defeat Al Qaeda.

Instead of assembling an international coalition to confront Islamist extremism  with diplomacy, technology, information, and humanitarian assistance as well as military force  the Bush administration moved against Iraq. By doing so, it alienated nearly all of our allies, forfeited the worlds sympathy, wasted thousands of lives and trillions of dollars, all to create a divided, failed state that now incubates terror.

So when someone like Kristol urges the president to bomb first and think later, as he did recently, the only sane response is bitter laughter. We need sober diplomacy and smart strategy, which President Obama and Secretary of State John Kerry have vowed to pursue when the United States takes over the leadership of the UN Security Council this month. And we need the patience to muster at last the broad, invincible alliance we could have led against Al Qaeda from the beginning.

AFP Photo


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Tamarque, I know what you're talking about....and my hope would be that our discussions would be more meaningful than the same old, same old with an opposite political slant.



tamarque said:


> PoorPurl--I get very tired of these fundamentalist, i-know-it-all about how to live people who keep trying to hijack every serious discussion here. If we were at a party, they would be left standing alone in the corner talking to themselves. Why do people pander to their narcissistic efforts to control conversations and turn all into their religious proselytizing. The only way to deal with them is to not respond at all. Personally, I find this constant talk about god and jesus more than distasteful. I find it downright rude when it is used to coopt all other discussion which is what always happens. These people cannot accept that others are not interested or wish to talk about other things. Why don't the countrybumpkins begin their own discussion where they can talk about their religion all they want. Of course it would be pretty boring since they don't talk about anything. Their goal is to interrupt everyone else. Rude, just plain rude!
> 
> If you want to get back to some meaningful discussion, let's do it. I am much more concerned about the propaganda of the West about Russia and its moving towards and invasion of that country. I am much more concerned about how the US hegemonic goals are being foisted on all other nations and international agencies supporting dictatorships, neo-nazis, violent fundamentalists world wide.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

This is the best article I have read on the subject, i. e. it makes the most sense to me. Thank you GroodleMom for posting this article.



GroodleMom said:


> This is a thoughtful article from the National Memo:
> To Defeat ISIS, Ignore Partisan Alarmists And Send Smart Diplomats
> 
> National Memo, September 2, 2014 6:00 am Category: Featured Post
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> PoorPurl--I get very tired of these fundamentalist, i-know-it-all about how to live people who keep trying to hijack every serious discussion here. If we were at a party, they would be left standing alone in the corner talking to themselves. Why do people pander to their narcissistic efforts to control conversations and turn all into their religious proselytizing. The only way to deal with them is to not respond at all. Personally, I find this constant talk about god and jesus more than distasteful. I find it downright rude when it is used to coopt all other discussion which is what always happens. These people cannot accept that others are not interested or wish to talk about other things. Why don't the countrybumpkins begin their own discussion where they can talk about their religion all they want. Of course it would be pretty boring since they don't talk about anything. Their goal is to interrupt everyone else. Rude, just plain rude!
> 
> If you want to get back to some meaningful discussion, let's do it. I am much more concerned about the propaganda of the West about Russia and its moving towards and invasion of that country. I am much more concerned about how the US hegemonic goals are being foisted on all other nations and international agencies supporting dictatorships, neo-nazis, violent fundamentalists world wide.


Tamarque, good for you to remind us that there are things more important to talk about than when the messiah is going to step in to save us all from ourselves. I'm afraid my sense of humor gets in the way sometimes, and I get carried away.

If I believed as strongly as you do that the US is the cause of, rather than the remedy for, most of the evils in this world, I would have moved out a long time ago, as soon as it was clear to me that our elections no longer worked (i.e., in 2000). Not that I agree that we should be the World's Police Dept.; far from it. But I'm hoping there are still people with influence who see things with open eyes and can move this country slowly away from its current position.

Not sure I agree about Russia. I think Putin is a very dangerous man, and the prize he seems to have eyes on is a repeat of the Cold War.

Frankly, I'm still drinking my first cup of coffee and am not awake enough to tackle such problems, but I'm glad you brought us back to the important stuff. The messiah will come when he comes, or not, but we have to take care of things ourselves until that does or doesn't happen.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

GroodleMom said:


> This is a thoughtful article from the National Memo:
> To Defeat ISIS, Ignore Partisan Alarmists And Send Smart Diplomats
> 
> National Memo, September 2, 2014 6:00 am Category: Featured Post
> ...


GroodleMom (love that name), thank you for this reminder. How Kristol continues to be paid for saying the moronic, obviously untrue things he's been saying all along defies sanity. If we took everything he's ever been quoted as saying and turned it into its opposite, we may have words to live by.

"Sober diplomacy" and "smart strategy" are exactly what we need now. Look at how we rushed into Iraq in 2003 with no diplomacy and thoughtless strategy, and what that led to. In fact, it undoubtedly led to ISIS, which we're now left to clean up. Somebody has to think before rushing in, and I only hope Obama is up to the task.

I know nothing about National Memo, but I'm certainly going to look into it.


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

tamarque said:


> PoorPurl--I get very tired of these fundamentalist, i-know-it-all about how to live people who keep trying to hijack every serious discussion here. If we were at a party, they would be left standing alone in the corner talking to themselves. Why do people pander to their narcissistic efforts to control conversations and turn all into their religious proselytizing. The only way to deal with them is to not respond at all. Personally, I find this constant talk about god and jesus more than distasteful. I find it downright rude when it is used to coopt all other discussion which is what always happens. These people cannot accept that others are not interested or wish to talk about other things. Why don't the countrybumpkins begin their own discussion where they can talk about their religion all they want. Of course it would be pretty boring since they don't talk about anything. Their goal is to interrupt everyone else. Rude, just plain rude!
> 
> If you want to get back to some meaningful discussion, let's do it. I am much more concerned about the propaganda of the West about Russia and its moving towards and invasion of that country. I am much more concerned about how the US hegemonic goals are being foisted on all other nations and international agencies supporting dictatorships, neo-nazis, violent fundamentalists world wide.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> GroodleMom (love that name), thank you for this reminder. How Kristol continues to be paid for saying the moronic, obviously untrue things he's been saying all along defies sanity. If we took everything he's ever been quoted as saying and turned it into its opposite, we may have words to live by.
> 
> "Sober diplomacy" and "smart strategy" are exactly what we need now. Look at how we rushed into Iraq in 2003 with no diplomacy and thoughtless strategy, and what that led to. In fact, it undoubtedly led to ISIS, which we're now left to clean up. Somebody has to think before rushing in, and I only hope Obama is up to the task.
> 
> I know nothing about National Memo, but I'm certainly going to look into it.


I have a Golden Doodle but I prefer to say that he is a Groodle - and... I'm his Mom!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Llavaia said:


> Yes I was smiling...gotta keep smiling or it starts to look like Jonestown around here..I try to inject a note of levity ... I get very upset when one's religion or lifestyle is attacked... I just don't get it..I am very simple that way..no one is better than anyone else and all religions are equal...see very simple. I was disturbed by the hits you took..sorry .. I hope your blood pressure didn't go up too much! And yes ..kids are married.. Thank God .. It's like a monkey off my back.. Now they can bitch and moan to their spouses...take care sweet one.
> Luci


Llavaia, if you happen to run into a nice Jewish girl to introduce my son to, please let me know. You seem to have the magic touch.

I didn't take any hits. If I can hit back, my BP continues to stay down, and this time I got in a few of my own.

I think it's necessary for some evangelicals to believe they have the only answer; otherwise they wouldn't know which way to turn. The Catholic Church seems to have gotten over that and to have figured out how to live in a world full of non-Catholics, but American evangelical Christians can't even accept the fact that our country is not a theocracy.

(BTW, has anyone ever told you what the Yiddish word _lavaiah_ means? It means "funeral," which I hope doesn't dampen your smile. It just struck me as a funny coincidence.)


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Family is a blessing. It's something else when they're in their terrible 2's or the dreaded teen age years. IMO


I loved what are called the terrible 2's. That seemed to be a very romantic age - kiss kiss kiss all the time. From a 2-year-old, it's fun. Then they can get away with anything. Teen age years, if it's kiss kiss kiss, it sure isn't with Mom or Dad, and that age really is terrible.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

GroodleMom said:


> I have a Golden Doodle but I prefer to say that he is a Groodle - and... I'm his Mom!


No pictures? What kind of mom are you? :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

I have to wonder if those who believe Jesus was supernatural (came back from death) would even recognize him if he "came back" again?
Considering that he was ethnically a Jew from the Middle-east he surely did not have the blue eyes or the light brown straight hair the many Christian paintings of him depict. Would he be considered a Muslim terrorist?



Country Bumpkins said:


> Last Days
> 
> Non-Christians find it hard to believe we are living in the last days of earth's history. It's in the Bible, II Peter 3:3-4, TLB. "First, I want to remind you that in the last days there will come scoffers who will do every wrong they can think of, and laugh at the truth. This will be their line of argument: 'So Jesus promised to come back, did He? Then where is He? He'll never come! Why, as far back as anyone can remember everything has remained exactly as it was since the first day of creation.'"
> 
> ...


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Wait, eventually she loses her temper and it gets really funny.
> 
> (BTW, as an adherent of the Great Proofreader, I need to point out that your word, _prosthelytize_, is a wonderful combination of _proselytize_ and _prosthetic_, which I guess defines it as "attempting to convert someone by sticking something artificial onto them," exactly what CB is doing here.)


That is so funny!

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Does anyone believe this? Somehow I've gone back in time and am standing in the dock before Cotton Mather.


Except for the fact that Cotton Mather was better versed in grammar and spelling!


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Frankly, I believe He expects us to try solve any problems we've brought upon ourselves through our own efforts. The world--and the West in particular--has brought about the current state of crisis by a series of shortsighted and very dumb decisions. Throwing up our hands and/or begging God to save us is not the correct path.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> But there are so many definitions of what god is. Which one is going to save humankind?


I don't want to get into any religious debate with anyone and I do know that there are many religions and ideas about the gods, but the Protestant religion that I was brought up in recognizes only one true God that has the right to have a capital "G" at the beginning of his name. Also, our church doctrine believes in the holy trinity of three persons in one God. I know that is a hard concept for anyone to grasp, but we take our knowledge and the bible on faith. It is, also, hard to understand how God has no beginning and no end; He has always been. All our questions will be answered when we get to heaven.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

GroodleMom said:


> I have to wonder if those who believe Jesus was supernatural (came back from death) would even recognize him if he "came back" again?
> Considering that he was ethnically a Jew from the Middle-east he surely did not have the blue eyes or the light brown straight hair the many Christian paintings of him depict. Would he be considered a Muslim terrorist?


The shout from the clouds will bring us up. He is Gloried . I think we will know because we are going up in the clouds that He is the Lord. I don't care what He looks like. The Bible says
The only verse in the Bible about Jesus physical form, before His death and resurrection, is found in Isaiah 53:2. It says:

He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to Him,
nothing in His appearance that we should desire Him.
The Coming of Christ
Revelation 
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

JeanWilkins said:


> I don't want to get into any religious debate with anyone and I do know that there are many religions and ideas about the gods, but the Protestant religion that I was brought up in recognizes only one true God that has the right to have a capital "G" at the beginning of his name. Also, our church doctrine believes in the holy trinity of three persons in one God. I know that is a hard concept for anyone to grasp, but we take our knowledge and the bible on faith. It is, also, hard to understand how God has no beginning and no end; He has always been. All our questions will be answered when we get to heaven.


Unless you think the Bible was originally written in English, the "one true God" you believe in was not named "God," and therefore there's no need to capitalize that word. And believe it or not, there are people here for whom there is no such entity, and there's no need for them to capitalize any form of her/his name.


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## joycevv (Oct 13, 2011)

GroodleMom, I appreciated your post too. One reason ISIS has been so successful, is it's being led by ex-Saddam Hussein military men. When W was claiming Mission Accomplished after our incredibly stupid invasion of Iraq on trumped up intelligence reports, many of us knew exactly what would really happen.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Unless you think the Bible was originally written in English, the "one true God" you believe in was not named "God," and therefore there's no need to capitalize that word. And believe it or not, there are people here for whom there is no such entity, and there's no need for them to capitalize any form of her/his name.


Ms. Wilkins - Isn't our Purl brilliant? Wasn't her logic just what was needed?

I just want to add that "G"ods come and go. Yesterday's god, today's myth.


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

joycevv said:


> GroodleMom, I appreciated your post too. One reason ISIS has been so successful, is it's being led by ex-Saddam Hussein military men. When W was claiming Mission Accomplished after our incredibly stupid invasion of Iraq on trumped up intelligence reports, many of us knew exactly what would really happen.


Yes Ma'am- exactly!


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> No pictures? What kind of mom are you? :lol: :lol: :lol:


Here you go. This is my furry Groodle baby. His name is Alfie.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Does anyone know the Japanese board game GO? I used to play it as a political exercise. It is a game where you try to surround territory in order to capture it while trying to prevent your opponent from doing that to you. Sound familiar?

The neo-cons definitely were playing that game in the real world and the game continues. The only difference is that part of the tactic used are designed to cause disruption and divisiveness. Thus, this was probably the only truth coming from GW--mission accomplished. Unfortunately it was not the mission for the people either here or there. Create resistance movements by funding them and arming them. Create unstable conditions and dethrone heads of state that won't play ball, or even if they do play. Stability doesn't help the neo-con cause.

We have been watching the creeping crud against Russia ever since the Cold War which obviously never ended. Now we see all the American armed services surrounding China and trying to get Japan to militarize again. The mid-east is a mess and the oil market is making a mint for the few. Israel is doing its part so saving the US from filling up bases in the countries in Israel's sphere. Africa
is a growing mess as the US rapes it of more and more minerals and supports the massively genocidal sectarian wars--good way to depopulate the world of people of color. They have no use for the mineral rich land or its water, right!

So we have a simple board game that lays out some if the core strategy that is being played out worldwide and we, the people, are expected to fund it while we get poorer and poorer.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

GroodleMom said:


> Here you go. This is my furry Groodle baby. His name is Alfie.


What is the G in groodle?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> Ms. Wilkins - Isn't our Purl brilliant? Wasn't her logic just what was needed?
> 
> I just want to add that "G"ods come and go. Yesterday's god, today's myth.


Purl was less than brilliant, in fact, she was completely wrong and has no understanding what Christians believe. Logic isn't her forte or part of her repertoire either.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> What able laughable? Isn't that making fun of me?


Of the things you write. Not you (exactly). oh never mind. <sigh>.


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

SQM said:


> What is the G in groodle?


Gr for Golden Retriever + oodle for Poodle (standard size) = Groodle


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

GroodleMom said:


> Here you go. This is my furry Groodle baby. His name is Alfie.


soooo cute!


----------



## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> soooo cute!


Thanks! I'll pass the compliment along to him.


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## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Unless you think the Bible was originally written in English, the "one true God" you believe in was not named "God," and therefore there's no need to capitalize that word. And believe it or not, there are people here for whom there is no such entity, and there's no need for them to capitalize any form of her/his name.


I know his name was not "God"! He was known by the Hebrew children as Jehovah. We just refer to Him as our Heavenly Father. Sometimes we refer to him as "Jehovah God". However you refer to Him, He is still the same "yesterday, today, and tomorrow." The important thing is what a person's relationship to Him is; NOT whatever someone calls him. I usually refer to Him as my dear Heavenly Father and I try to listen to Him as much as I talk to Him in case He has something to say to me. I actually have heard His voice right after a house fire we had and I was worried about what we were going to do. He said, "Don't worry; everything is going to be alright." I immediately calmed down after hearing that from God and everything did turn out alright just as He promised.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

JeanWilkins said:


> I know his name was not "God"! He was known by the Hebrew children as Jehovah. We just refer to Him as our Heavenly Father. Sometimes we refer to him as "Jehovah God". However you refer to Him, He is still the same "yesterday, today, and tomorrow." The important thing is what a person's relationship to Him is; NOT whatever someone calls him. I usually refer to Him as my dear Heavenly Father and I try to listen to Him as much as I talk to Him in case He has something to say to me. I actually have heard His voice right after a house fire we had and I was worried about what we were going to do. He said, "Don't worry; everything is going to be alright." I immediately calmed down after hearing that from God and everything did turn out alright just as He promised.


Mrs. Wilkins - you gave me a chill. Years and years ago I was living in an apt. where the backdoor was off my bedroom. I was asleep when someone tried to break in. Needless to say, I have had serious sleep issues for many decades. But as soon as I was about to go back to sleep after securing the door - I heard the exact same words in my ear - only it was a woman's voice. I cannot explain what happened to me but I don't connect it to any religion since I did not have one.

By the way, the Hebrews had many names to address god with, but god wanted no name from us, so I think Jehovah was never a name the early Hebrews used. It comes from some Hebrew letters that actually cannot be pronounced since it contains no vowels. Other religious groups came up with Jehovah as a way to pronounce that which cannot be pronounced. (Please check with better Jewish scholars here to be sure I am correct.)


----------



## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> Mrs. Wilkins - you gave me a chill. Years and years ago I was living in an apt. where the backdoor was off my bedroom. I was asleep when someone tried to break in. Needless to say, I have had serious sleep issues for many decades. But as soon as I was about to go back to sleep after securing the door - I heard the exact same words in my ear - only it was a woman's voice. I cannot explain what happened to me but I don't connect it to any religion since I did not have one.
> 
> By the way, the Hebrews had many names to address god with, but god wanted no name from us, so I think Jehovah was never a name the early Hebrews used. It comes from some Hebrew letters that actually cannot be pronounced since it contains no vowels. Other religious groups came up with Jehovah as a way to pronounce that which cannot be pronounced. (Please check with better Jewish scholars here to be sure I am correct.)


You are right and the Jews did refer to Him by another name that I am not sure how to spell, but it was pronounce like: "Yaway" Also, if I remember my history, the Jews that themselves unworthy to say the name of God.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

proper name, of deity Yahweh, the proper name of the God of Israel  (. 1 &#7505;0 &#1497;&#1456;&#1492;&#1493;&#1464;&#1466;&#1492;C518 (Qr &#1488;&#1458;&#1491;&#1465;&#1504;&#1464;&#1497, or &#1497;&#1457;&#1492;&#1493;&#1460;&#1466;&#1492;305 (Qr &#1488;&#1457;&#1500;&#1465;&#1492;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501, in the combinations &#1488;&#1491;&#1504;&#1497; &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492; ...


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

JeanWilkins said:


> You are right and the Jews did refer to Him by another name that I am not sure how to spell, but it was pronounce like: "Yaway" Also, if I remember my history, the Jews that themselves unworthy to say the name of God.


You mean Yahweh

Here are other Jewish words for God

E.lo.him

El Shad-dai : God Almighty

E.lo-hei.him

El' EL.yon God most High

Yes you both heard God through his Holy spirit.

The only reason I know the different names of "Our Lord God"

is because of Dr. David H. Stern, who is Jewish and he

translated the Complete Jewish Bible so we can understand the

words and the meaning of the Hebrew langauge


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> You mean Yahweh
> 
> Here are other Jewish words for God
> 
> ...


 :thumbup:


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> :thumbup:


Forgot a couple CB also

Jesus: Ye-shu.a


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Forgot a couple CB also
> 
> Jesus: Ye-shu.a


My favorite.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

JeanWilkins said:


> You are right and the Jews did refer to Him by another name that I am not sure how to spell, but it was pronounce like: "Yaway" Also, if I remember my history, the Jews that themselves unworthy to say the name of God.


I don't imagine that the Jews think themselves unworthy rather than god is too great to be named.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> proper name, of deity Yahweh, the proper name of the God of Israel  (. 1 ᵑ0 יְהוָֺהC518 (Qr אֲדֹנָי), or יֱהוִֺה305 (Qr אֱלֹהִים), in the combinations אדני יהוה ...


Hey I can read your hebrew. However, and again check - I can be wrong - I think in the Hebrew bible the one name that cannot be pronounced does not have vowels. You are probably reading the Old Testament which may differ from the hebrew bible.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> You mean Yahweh
> 
> Here are other Jewish words for God
> 
> ...


Cool Yarnie. I think there are 2? names for god in the hebrew bible but I don't see them as names, per se, but ways of addressing god. I will check out Stern. Thanks.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> Hey I can read your hebrew. However, and again check - I can be wrong - I think in the Hebrew bible the one name that cannot be pronounced does not have vowels. You are probably reading the Old Testament which may differ from the hebrew bible.


Hebrew YHWH was rendered into the Greek language


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

SQM said:


> Cool Yarnie. I think there are 2? names for god in the hebrew bible but I don't see them as names, per se, but ways of addressing god. I will check out Stern. Thanks.


Hope you do He open my eyes to the translation of our Bible into what was really written in the Old Testment, and translated the New Testment too.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Hope you do He open my eyes to the translation of our Bible into what was really written in the Old Testment, and translated the New Testment too.


I still want that Bible. Haven't found it yet. I haven't looked online tho.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

GroodleMom said:


> Here you go. This is my furry Groodle baby. His name is Alfie.


What a beauty! I bet he's smart, too. Is that an alligator he's holding, or what?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Does anyone know the Japanese board game GO? I used to play it as a political exercise. It is a game where you try to surround territory in order to capture it while trying to prevent your opponent from doing that to you. Sound familiar?
> 
> The neo-cons definitely were playing that game in the real world and the game continues. The only difference is that part of the tactic used are designed to cause disruption and divisiveness. Thus, this was probably the only truth coming from GW--mission accomplished. Unfortunately it was not the mission for the people either here or there. Create resistance movements by funding them and arming them. Create unstable conditions and dethrone heads of state that won't play ball, or even if they do play. Stability doesn't help the neo-con cause.
> 
> ...


Are you this cynical about everything? We (the US) sound so awful.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

JeanWilkins said:


> I know his name was not "God"! He was known by the Hebrew children as Jehovah. We just refer to Him as our Heavenly Father. Sometimes we refer to him as "Jehovah God". However you refer to Him, He is still the same "yesterday, today, and tomorrow." The important thing is what a person's relationship to Him is; NOT whatever someone calls him. I usually refer to Him as my dear Heavenly Father and I try to listen to Him as much as I talk to Him in case He has something to say to me. I actually have heard His voice right after a house fire we had and I was worried about what we were going to do. He said, "Don't worry; everything is going to be alright." I immediately calmed down after hearing that from God and everything did turn out alright just as He promised.


 As to capitalization (this exchange began about capitalization, if you recall), Hebrew has no capitals, so capitalizing any name is not an issue. Actually in the first chapter of Genesis he's called by a name that would be transliterated "Elohim," which translates to "gods" (yes, plural, though it's clear from the context that there's only one). "Jehovah," or Yahveh, as it's pronounced by scholars these days, was never spoken by the common people but only by the High Priest, and is often referred to as the Tetragrammaton (that is, "four letters" ). I'm sorry for going on so.

I like your story about hearing his voice (but was it in fact a male voice?). He seems to give you exactly what you need.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

JeanWilkins said:


> You are right and the Jews did refer to Him by another name that I am not sure how to spell, but it was pronounce like: "Yaway" Also, if I remember my history, the Jews that themselves unworthy to say the name of God.


I should have read this first before that essay I wrote to you.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Forgot a couple CB also
> 
> Jesus: Ye-shu.a


The Jewish Bible didn't have that as a name of God.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I don't imagine that the Jews think themselves unworthy rather than god is too great to be named.


I believe you,re right, and about the next msg. as well.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Y'shua (Jesus) is the Messiah; the son of David; born in Bethlehem of Judah. He is: Mashiach ben David, Adonai Yeshua Ha Mashiach.

In Torah, Proverbs 30-4 says, and what is His Son's name, if thou canst tell?


Baruch Haba B'Shem Adonai
Blessed is He who comes in in the Name of the Lord


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Purl was less than brilliant, in fact, she was completely wrong and has no understanding what Christians believe. Logic isn't her forte or part of her repertoire either.


Better call my grad school and tell them to cancel my degree in mathematics. I'm sure you know which school it was and how to reach it.

As for what Christians believe, what does that have to do with my message? Do you really have strong beliefs about capitalization?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Better call my grad school and tell them to cancel my degree in mathematics. I'm sure you know which school it was and how to reach it.
> 
> As for what Christians believe, what does that have to do with my message? Do you really have strong beliefs about capitalization?


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

PoorPUrl--i cannot see how you could read my post about the political world we live in and see cynicism. Maybe the problem here is that conversations get constantly side tracked by these religious people because others won't hold onto the conversation about political issues. Maybe people prefer to tsk, tsp the conditions of the world but won't really look at them. There is nothing cynical about my description of what is happening. It is what exists. How about you disproving what I say instead of making judgements about my character. I gave you more credit than that.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Putin and Ukraine reach a deal:

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/09/03/18/15/putin-poroshenko-agree-to-permanent-truce


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

I missed the segment of news on Al Jazeera this a.m on the Ukraine situation. But even this news station has pandered to the American goals. I do hope this ceasefire is true and holds but have to question what the US is doing behind the scenes as it has been part of instigating this whole neo-nazi coup and has had 'advisors' in the Ukraine from the git go.

I do know that the information put out in the US mass media---all of it--has been pure propaganda/lies. What has been said by other sources is that the Ukraine was losing badly in the east. The tanks reportedly provided by Russia were tanks abandoned by Ukrainian military units who fled the battle field when their ammo and other supplies ran out. Aerial photos purportedly of Russian tank delivery were only white trucks with humanitarian supplies. So typical of the US! 

And that is why I wrote my post on the Japanese game of Go reflecting the overall strategy of the West regarding overpowering Russian and China. 
What is the phrase used by the Administration to describe this countries foreign policy? Something like Total ?? Dominance! Sounds a lot like the neo-con's New World Order which everyone on the left and many others acknowledge sounded too much like the Nazi program for controlling the world. Now we have a new phrase that is even more insidious in its meaning.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Actually in the first chapter of Genesis he's called by a name that would be transliterated "Elohim," which translates to "gods" (yes, plural, though it's clear from the context that there's only one). "Jehovah," or Yahveh, as it's pronounced by scholars these days, was never spoken by the common people but only by the High Priest, and is often referred to as the Tetragrammaton (that is, "four letters" ). I'm sorry for going on so.


JeanWilkins: I and other Christians ignore Poor Purl's incorrect statements. You well know, as do Christians, the names and words we use to speak of our Savior.

"In the beginning _God_ ..." Genesis 1

It doesn't say, "In the beginning, gods ..." The Bible is absolutely clear from the BEGINNING, there was and is only ONE _God_.

The next word "created." It's what ONLY _God_ does, in the ancient language, the word means to bring something into existence or to completion. He is still creating and unfolding His story because He is the Living _God_!

Thanks for your posts.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> PoorPUrl--i cannot see how you could read my post about the political world we live in and see cynicism. Maybe the problem here is that conversations get constantly side tracked by these religious people because others won't hold onto the conversation about political issues. Maybe people prefer to tsk, tsp the conditions of the world but won't really look at them. There is nothing cynical about my description of what is happening. It is what exists. How about you disproving what I say instead of making judgements about my character. I gave you more credit than that.


I can't disprove what you say; I have my own misgivings about many of the things our country does in other parts of the world, and I'm certain that I don't know the whole story. It's just that what you said seems so bleak, I can't imagine how it could ever be fixed short of revolution (which may have to be the next step).

If I call you cynical, it's not a negative judgment, and it's not at all a judgment of your character; it's just a statement that your view of the world is one I couldn't live with. I'd have no hope to keep me going, but maybe I give up too easily.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

And the beat goes on:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/03/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0GX21720140903


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> JeanWilkins: I and other Christians ignore Poor Purl's incorrect statements. You well know, as do Christians, the names and words we use to speak of our Savior.
> 
> "In the beginning _God_ ..." Genesis 1
> 
> ...


It's a pity you never bothered to learn Hebrew. You might actually have something to add, rather than ignorantly subtract from the body of knowledge. The word in the original language of the Bible (Hebrew, for those of you who thought it was Greek) is in fact a plural, though even I point out that it's meant to refer to a single entity.

And you speak of God as your Savior. I think even you should know that the name does not go with that function. There's a difference between Savior and Creator, and different names are used for them.

Jean Wilkins appears to be very well-versed in both Christian belief and the language of the Bible and doesn't need your irrelevancies.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It's a pity you never bothered to learn Hebrew. You might actually have something to add, rather than ignorantly subtract from the body of knowledge. The word in the original language of the Bible (Hebrew, for those of you who thought it was Greek) is in fact a plural, though even I point out that it's meant to refer to a single entity.
> 
> And you speak of God as your Savior. I think even you should know that the name does not go with that function. There's a difference between Savior and Creator, and different names are used for them.
> 
> Jean Wilkins appears to be very well-versed in both Christian belief and the language of the Bible and doesn't need your irrelevancies.


You are correct in that Elohim speaks to the plural nature of a singular entity, God. Elohim is the perfect expression of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

It is not a mystery. We humans are created in the image of God; we are mind, body, and spirit, which are analagous to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To come to know and understand the self, is to understand the Trinity...Elohim!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No thank you for your posts.



knitpresentgifts said:


> JeanWilkins: I and other Christians ignore Poor Purl's incorrect statements. You well know, as do Christians, the names and words we use to speak of our Savior.
> 
> "In the beginning _God_ ..." Genesis 1
> 
> ...


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

damemary said:


> No thank you for your posts.


You can unwatch .


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> You are correct in that Elohim speaks to the plural nature of a singular entity, God. Elohim is the perfect expression of the Trinty (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).
> 
> It is not a mystery. We humans are created in the image of God; we are mind, body, and spirit, which are analagous to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To come to know and understand the self, is to understand the Trinity...Elohim!


Amen, Gerslay!


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

damemary said:


> No thank you for your posts.


You forgot the punctuation:

No! Thank _you_ for your posts!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't want to unwatch. I appreciate hearing opinions....just not the sermons from your blow-hard buddie. Good day and God bless.



Country Bumpkins said:


> You can unwatch .


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The punctuation was correct, as you well know. Why don't you go play with your friends?



Gerslay said:


> You forgot the punctuation:
> 
> No! Thank _you_ for your posts!


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

damemary said:


> The punctuation was correct, as you well know. Why don't you go play with your friends?


Much prefer yanking your chain, your Ladyship!


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

damemary said:


> I don't want to unwatch. I appreciate hearing opinions....just not the sermons from your blow-hard buddie. Good day and God bless.


No one is beneath you in your crass words to those you choose to listen to. God will not be mocked by you either. Learn some manners, Suzi.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We understand each other.



Gerslay said:


> Much prefer yanking your chain, your Ladyship!


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> The punctuation was correct, as you well know. Why don't you go play with your friends?


Good idea. Better yet, pack up your toys and scoot.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Good idea. Better yet, pack up your toys and scoot.


You sure are acting childish. Does your son know you treat strangers this way? Not a good example. Schools have rules about bulling and calling people names. Grow up.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You sure are acting childish. Does your son know you treat strangers this way? Not a good example. Schools have rules about bulling and calling people names. Grow up.


Pot meet kettle. No one can top you in that respect, I'm afraid.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You sure are acting childish. Does your son know you treat strangers this way? Not a good example. Schools have rules about bulling and calling people names. Grow up.


Boy, is that the truth. Wait, she'll change the subject, make something stupid up for a comparison or leave as that is what a coward always does. I feel sorry for her son.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

If I were not too smart for you, I'd ask where you ever heard the word 'manners.' IMHO you are a crass narcissus (and I don't mean daffodil) intent on obtaining an audience at any cost. So you had one (me) today who couldn't resist. Here I thought you and your minions were on D&P playing kissy face.



knitpresentgifts said:


> No one is beneath you in your crass words to those you choose to listen to. God will not be mocked by you either. Learn some manners, Suzi.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Boy, is that the truth. Wait, she'll change the subject, make something stupid up for a comparison or leave as that is what a coward always does. I feel sorry for her son.


Or change her id. :shock:


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

damemary said:


> If I were not too smart for you, I'd ask where you ever heard the word 'manners.' IMHO you are a crass narcissus (and I don't mean daffodil) intent on obtaining an audience at any cost. So you had one (me) today who couldn't resist. Here I thought you and your minions were on D&P playing kissy face.


What is wrong with kissy face? Try it , it is fun. :thumbup:


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Boy, is that the truth. Wait, she'll change the subject, make something stupid up for a comparison or leave as that is what a coward always does. I feel sorry for her son.


Sorry, Toots--some of us have work to do. I promise to check back, though--you've obviously popped another spring.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> You are correct in that Elohim speaks to the plural nature of a singular entity, God. Elohim is the perfect expression of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).
> 
> It is not a mystery. We humans are created in the image of God; we are mind, body, and spirit, which are analagous to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To come to know and understand the self, is to understand the Trinity...Elohim!


That's your interpretation, fine. It cannot be claimed to be absolute truth, however. It's definitely not one that the original users of the language would accept.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Pot meet kettle. No one can top you in that respect, I'm afraid.


Yes, there is someone who can top her.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Boy, is that the truth. Wait, she'll change the subject, make something stupid up for a comparison or leave as that is what a coward always does. I feel sorry for her son.


I've been told you have no progeny. I feel happy for the world.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Or change her id. :shock:


It would be nice if you placed less emphasis on the id and a little more on the superego.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> What is wrong with kissy face? Try it , it is fun. :thumbup:


Doesn't that depend on how you smell? :roll:


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Or change her id. :shock:


That too. We knew best, didn't we CB? She logged off to try to come up with something SHE thinks is clever. I gave up hope for her a LOONG time ago.

What a sorry example for her son as you said.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> As to capitalization (this exchange began about capitalization, if you recall), Hebrew has no capitals, so capitalizing any name is not an issue. Actually in the first chapter of Genesis he's called by a name that would be transliterated "Elohim," which translates to "gods" (yes, plural, though it's clear from the context that there's only one). "Jehovah," or Yahveh, as it's pronounced by scholars these days, was never spoken by the common people but only by the High Priest, and is often referred to as the Tetragrammaton (that is, "four letters" ). I'm sorry for going on so.
> 
> I like your story about hearing his voice (but was it in fact a male voice?). He seems to give you exactly what you need.


E.lo.him: does not mean God's , but god of god's,. It means god of all . (Plural in Hebrew a noun)

B"resheet 1:1

Sh'mot 20: 2-3

Dvarim 10:17

Tehillim 136:2

Jesus(Yeshua ) uses all three meanings in his word-play.

E.lo. hei.nu

E.lo.him

e.lo.him meaning "god's" and " judges"


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> That too. We knew best, didn't we CB? She logged off to try to come up with something SHE thinks is clever. I gave up hope for her a LOONG time ago.
> 
> What a sorry example for her son as you said.


Sorry to disappoint you, dear--I'm right here just scribbling a few notes. You're a literary goldmine.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It would be nice if you placed less emphasis on the id and a little more on the superego.


Are you saying I have the superego or Susan? Ask Susan how many heads she has.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Are you saying I have the superego or Susan? Ask Susan how many heads she has.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: I ..... can't ..... breathe!

:XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: I'm laughing so hard I may collapse.

It's a good thing I'm alone, or someone would lock me up from laughing so hard.

Oh, CB, your words about Susan's many heads, and SQM over on another thread happy to be 'swallow' ... I just cannot take the laughter. :XD: :-D  :XD:

hmm ... I wonder if she knows about swallows and who cares for them ...


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> E.lo.him: does not mean God's , but god of god's,. It means god of all . (Plural in Hebrew a noun)
> 
> B"resheet 1:1
> 
> ...


Yes He IS the Great I AM.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Yes He IS the Great I AM.


CB - *stop! * Don't go there, or I'll collapse from laughter.

Don't you remember when I created a special avatar for Lisa and the Pitiful one accused me of having a super ego and lectured me on the meaning of those words - as if I didn't know?

:XD: :-D  breathe  :XD: :-D breathe :XD: :-D


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> E.lo.him: does not mean God's , but god of god's,. It means god of all . (Plural in Hebrew a noun)
> 
> B"resheet 1:1
> 
> ...


Where and when did you learn Hebrew? I've been reading and speaking the language since I was 5 years old. Please don't try to teach me things you don't know yourself.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Are you saying I have the superego or Susan? Ask Susan how many heads she has.


Everyone should have a superego, but some don't use theirs and choose to use their id instead. That would include you.

You're the one who complains when _I_ make fun of _you_? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And don't forget to beg forgiveness from the people you malign.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> CB - *stop! * Don't go there, or I'll collapse from laughter.
> 
> Don't you remember when I created a special avatar for Lisa and the Pitiful one accused me of having a super ego and lectured me on the meaning of those words - as if I didn't know?
> 
> :XD: :-D  breathe  :XD: :-D breathe :XD: :-D


I would NEVER accuse you of having a superego, since you obviously have none. As for "super ego," well, yes, your ego is way too big. And the "special" avatar was for you; you posted one or two messages using it, then it disappeared. You can keep lying about it, but you know I'm right.

But you are that you are. Luckily, nobody else is.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

PoorPurl. I am sorry you find my description of the world despondent. Well, agreed, when looking at the power dynamics, it is. But I do old out hope for the people--if they can get over their petty and divisive crapl This conversation is to that point. These people who keep pushing their petty religious egoism never does anything. There is nothing to be done with it except ignore and disempower it. 

Here is a piece of my take, and only a piece. Religion is a big crock of crap. It has nothing to do with spirituality which requires no money, no expensive buildings, no patriarchal leader and no invasion into others private matters. Spirituality, which allegedly is the base of religions is not for sale and is always a very personal thing. Simply put it is a form of empathetic connection to the world on a bigger, energetic level. It is why shamanism works and paganism functions, as does meditation and asking the goddess for help. It is about opening your inner heart energy to the energetic fields of the world around us. For people who work on spiritual connection, they seem to lead by the heart energy and need nothing more to help guide them. When at my best, I certainly can create change in my life. That is the challenge to be able to live in that space. Buddhist training is all about being able to do this. My born again christian chimney guy tries to do this with his family. He, gratefully, has made me one of his good works in life and has given me a great deal of free labor. In turn I recommend him to many people and hire him whenever I can. We have worked well together for many years despite our widely divergent view of the world around us.

I am not sure about these experiments of intention on a world wide basis, but what do I know. Given the level of villainy, including that of organized religion, all of them, maybe there needs to be a super massive organization for intentional meditation. Maybe you recall that during the Viet Nam war one of the things said is that if everyone stopped fighting the war would be over. And in some way that is exactly what did happen. Over time more and more of the people fighting over there became politicized and began to organize agains the war from with the ranks. They knew they were supported by a very large antiwar movement at home. At some point I recall a significant number of Lieutenants were killed by their own men (friendly fire is the euphemism). It was becoming harder and harder to get the men to fight and this growing resistance was a big part of the US pulling out. It was also a big piece of ending the draft. And mechanization of war was increased to avoid labor--just like in industry

The 1% and its lesser officers have a great deal of power today, more than ever before in history. But it is not just their money to buy elections and politicians. They also spend enormous amounts on propaganda and divisive tactics. They do this because of fear of what would happen if people really got their acts together. Remember how the agriculture elite made laws of misogyny to keep poor blacks and whites from creating alliances. Until that point both groups lived, intermarried, had kids and saw each other as allies. Well the same methods are what challenge us today. That is why i can't stand these bickering, egotistical, go nowhere, prove nothing discussions. All they do is validate differences.

If people here on KP, who actually represent the general public, can't get it together to find commonality besides knitting, then we are in deep trouble. My question is what motivates some of these people to keep pushing divisiveness. There is nothing they have to say other than pushing their religion but not even for any purpose. Do they even understand how vacant their comments are as they offer no substance. Even arguing about the words in the bible cannot even open the door for some mutual interest with a few people. 

But I keep trucking because if I don't how can I expect others to do so. And I have been out there for a very long time.


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## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> As to capitalization (this exchange began about capitalization, if you recall), Hebrew has no capitals, so capitalizing any name is not an issue. Actually in the first chapter of Genesis he's called by a name that would be transliterated "Elohim," which translates to "gods" (yes, plural, though it's clear from the context that there's only one). "Jehovah," or Yahveh, as it's pronounced by scholars these days, was never spoken by the common people but only by the High Priest, and is often referred to as the Tetragrammaton (that is, "four letters" ). I'm sorry for going on so.
> 
> I like your story about hearing his voice (but was it in fact a male voice?). He seems to give you exactly what you need.


I heard it as a male voice, but it was in my mind and very well could have been the Holy Spirit's voice. He was left here to help us when Christ went back to Heaven. In the protestant religion the triune God is made up of God the father, God the son (Christ), and God the Spirit (Holy Spirit)--that's our trinity. Before anyone asks how God can be 3 persons, don't forget that He is omnipotent and capable of being several persons if He so desires. He can do anything but fail. Also, our bible, also, says that each of us have a guardian angel to look over us; at least, that's what I had been brought up with. I, also, recognize that not all people believe in the trinity and that is their prerogative. I respect others beliefs and only ask that others respect mine and not argue with me as it will not change my stand.
I know other religions have differing beliefs, but I'm not here to argue with anyone as none of us really know the whole truths. It is only important that our hearts are right with whatever God we follow. Religion was NOT meant to be argued about and I respect everyone's beliefs. I may not always believe everything someone else does, but I will defend their right to believe whatever they were trained in.


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## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> JeanWilkins: I and other Christians ignore Poor Purl's incorrect statements. You well know, as do Christians, the names and words we use to speak of our Savior.
> 
> "In the beginning _God_ ..." Genesis 1
> 
> ...


Thank you for your words of encouragement. I was getting to the point of feeling like some of the others were trying to get me in a religious debate or argument against my own religion and beliefs and I will not do that. I'm no expert on anything, let alone religion and only speak what I had been brought up with. I profess to be a protestant and a believer and have been a born again Christian since the age of 13. I, also, believe the whole bible; not just either the old testament or the new testament. Our church professes and our preachers preach from God's Holy Bible.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I like Mrs. Wilkins' posts. She is open-minded and sensible.I am originally from Chicago. Are you far from there?


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> That's your interpretation, fine. It cannot be claimed to be absolute truth, however. It's definitely not one that the original users of the language would accept.


I thought you didn't believe in absolutes?

How would the original users of the language interpret the plurality/singularity of Elohim? Seriously, I'm interested.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

JeanWilkins said:


> Thank you for your words of encouragement. I was getting to the point of feeling like some of the others were trying to get me in a religious debate or argument against my own religion and beliefs and I will not do that. I'm no expert on anything, let alone religion and only speak what I had been brought up with. I profess to be a protestant and a believer and have been a born again Christian since the age of 13. I, also, believe the whole bible; not just either the old testament or the new testament. Our church professes and our preachers preach from God's Holy Bible.


Hi Jean, You are most welcome! It is nice to hear from another voice. Your feelings were accurate. There is one Jewish woman on this thread who continues to tell Christians what to believe, how we are to believe and what we don't understand about our own Faith. Shame on her and those who join her, but, they simply do not have the knowledge to understand our Faith and shouldn't make anyone defend themselves regardless. That is why I suggested you ignore their statements.

I'm in complete agreement with your statements about your Faith. I too, believe in the entire Christian Bible as that is how I was taught and grew up in The Church. I wouldn't be part of any service or congregation (other than for a brief visit out of curiosity) that doesn't teach from The Holy Bible.

From one fellow Born-Again Christian to another, God Bless you today and always, Sister.
:-D


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## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> I like Mrs. Wilkins' posts. She is open-minded and sensible.I am originally from Chicago. Are you far from there?


Not really. I live in Hastings, MI (Barry County); down in the southwest of the state just north of Battle Creek, northeast of Kalamazoo, and southeast of Grand Rapids. It probably takes us about as long to get to Chicago as it does to Detroit from our hometown. My parents took us to Chicago when we were children. We went to a couple of the big museums (one was the Museum of Science and Industry) and a planetarium there. I've always wanted to go back.


----------



## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Hi Jean, You are most welcome! It is nice to hear from another voice. Your feelings were accurate. There is one Jewish woman on this thread who continues to tell Christians what to believe, how we are to believe and what we don't understand about our own Faith. Shame on her and those who join her, but, they simply do not have the knowledge to understand our Faith and shouldn't make anyone defend themselves regardless. That is why I suggested you ignore their statements.
> 
> I'm in complete agreement with your statements about your Faith. I too, believe in the entire Christian Bible. From one fellow Born-Again Christian to another, God Bless you today and always, Sister.
> :-D


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> PoorPurl. I am sorry you find my description of the world despondent. Well, agreed, when looking at the power dynamics, it is. But I do old out hope for the people--if they can get over their petty and divisive crapl This conversation is to that point. These people who keep pushing their petty religious egoism never does anything. There is nothing to be done with it except ignore and disempower it.
> 
> Here is a piece of my take, and only a piece. Religion is a big crock of crap. It has nothing to do with spirituality which requires no money, no expensive buildings, no patriarchal leader and no invasion into others private matters. Spirituality, which allegedly is the base of religions is not for sale and is always a very personal thing. Simply put it is a form of empathetic connection to the world on a bigger, energetic level. It is why shamanism works and paganism functions, as does meditation and asking the goddess for help. It is about opening your inner heart energy to the energetic fields of the world around us. For people who work on spiritual connection, they seem to lead by the heart energy and need nothing more to help guide them. When at my best, I certainly can create change in my life. That is the challenge to be able to live in that space. Buddhist training is all about being able to do this. My born again christian chimney guy tries to do this with his family. He, gratefully, has made me one of his good works in life and has given me a great deal of free labor. In turn I recommend him to many people and hire him whenever I can. We have worked well together for many years despite our widely divergent view of the world around us.
> 
> ...


Tamarque - There's so much in your post that deserves attention that I don't know where to start, or why to start, since you've said it for me in so many places.

Okay, very little since I have a lot of other things to do: The 1%, or the increasing power of the corporations, seems to me as bad as Muslim terrorists, since they're all trying to destroy what until now has been a pretty good way to govern. One thing I remember from the Vietnam War days was an attempt to lift the Pentagon by encircling it and meditating on it. It would be wonderful if we could lift the consciences of the too-empowered few by using the consciousness of the disempowered many.

I'm at a loss to go on (plus I have to take care of household business), so I will simply thank you for doing all the heavy lifting for me. Maybe over the weekend I'll have more time to give it real thought, but you'll get no arguments from me.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

JeanWilkins said:


> I heard it as a male voice, but it was in my mind and very well could have been the Holy Spirit's voice. He was left here to help us when Christ went back to Heaven. In the protestant religion the triune God is made up of God the father, God the son (Christ), and God the Spirit (Holy Spirit)--that's our trinity. Before anyone asks how God can be 3 persons, don't forget that He is omnipotent and capable of being several persons if He so desires. He can do anything but fail. Also, our bible, also, says that each of us have a guardian angel to look over us; at least, that's what I had been brought up with. I, also, recognize that not all people believe in the trinity and that is their prerogative. I respect others beliefs and only ask that others respect mine and not argue with me as it will not change my stand.
> I know other religions have differing beliefs, but I'm not here to argue with anyone as none of us really know the whole truths. It is only important that our hearts are right with whatever God we follow. Religion was NOT meant to be argued about and I respect everyone's beliefs. I may not always believe everything someone else does, but I will defend their right to believe whatever they were trained in.


Thank you for your very clear description of how you see the Trinity. I agree with what you say about respecting everyone's beliefs, and I still love your voice story.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

JeanWilkins said:


> Thank you for your words of encouragement. I was getting to the point of feeling like some of the others were trying to get me in a religious debate or argument against my own religion and beliefs and I will not do that. I'm no expert on anything, let alone religion and only speak what I had been brought up with. I profess to be a protestant and a believer and have been a born again Christian since the age of 13. I, also, believe the whole bible; not just either the old testament or the new testament. Our church professes and our preachers preach from God's Holy Bible.


 :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> I thought you didn't believe in absolutes?
> 
> How would the original users of the language interpret the plurality/singularity of Elohim? Seriously, I'm interested.


1. Wherever did you get the idea that I don't believe in absolutes? I'm a mathematician: we're all about absolutes.

2. To be truthful (I told the truth before, but not the whole truth), though the word Elohim is plural, in referring to the one monotheistic god, the Bible uses singular verb and adjective forms, so it was obvious that a single entity was being talked about. When plural verbs and adj's are used, we know that the Bible is talking about the multiple gods of other peoples. I think (and this is only a guess) that the plural was used to distinguish this god from the ones Abraham smashed - if all had the same name, they might have had the same qualities, which was not the intent of the Bible.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Hi Jean, You are most welcome! It is nice to hear from another voice. Your feelings were accurate. There is one Jewish woman on this thread who continues to tell Christians what to believe, how we are to believe and what we don't understand about our own Faith. Shame on her and those who join her, but, they simply do not have the knowledge to understand our Faith and shouldn't make anyone defend themselves regardless. That is why I suggested you ignore their statements.
> 
> I'm in complete agreement with your statements about your Faith. I too, believe in the entire Christian Bible as that is how I was taught and grew up in The Church. I wouldn't be part of any service or congregation (other than for a brief visit out of curiosity) that doesn't teach from The Holy Bible.
> 
> ...


I'd love to meet that "one Jewish woman on this thread who continues to tell Christians what to believe, how we are to believe and what we don't understand about our own Faith." I've never seen anyone who meets that description. I've seen not just one but several Jewish women who try to tell you about their own beliefs but are usually overwhelmed by the shouting of the Christians trying to convert them or telling them they're wrong. I've never told you how to observe your faith. I've questioned whether the things you say and do are consistent with the things Jesus said and did, but that's not the same thing.

But why am I bothering to talk to someone who has said more than once that Jews are White Supremacists? She is someone who will never understand what a Jew is.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Thanks Purl. I was waiting until after dinner to ask Mrs. Gifts to be transparent and to openly address The Jewish Woman.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Thanks Purl. I was waiting until after dinner to ask Mrs. Gifts to be transparent and to openly address The Jewish Woman.


I know you're being polite, but somehow the name Mrs. Gifts doesn't seem to fit.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I know you're being polite, but somehow the name Mrs. Gifts doesn't seem to fit.


Many happy returns????????


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> 1. Wherever did you get the idea that I don't believe in absolutes? I'm a mathematician: we're all about absolutes.
> 
> 2. To be truthful (I told the truth before, but not the whole truth), though the word Elohim is plural, in referring to the one monotheistic god, the Bible uses singular verb and adjective forms, so it was obvious that a single entity was being talked about. When plural verbs and adj's are used, we know that the Bible is talking about the multiple gods of other peoples. I think (and this is only a guess) that the plural was used to distinguish this god from the ones Abraham smashed - if all had the same name, they might have had the same qualities, which was not the intent of the Bible.


1. In the not so distant past there was a big brouhaha about truth being an absolute or truth being relative. I thought I remembered it as you falling in the relative camp. (I could be wrong, perhaps it was someone else.) Do you contend then, as a mathematician, that truth is absolute?

2. Thanks for the explanation. I understand the use of singular verbs and adjectives indicating that Elohim functions as a singular noun. I can't go along with your guess however; you're making a supposition about the word Elohim in Gen 1:1 (the 4th word in the Bible) in comparison to and to differentiate from the idols Abram smashed when Abram doesn't even appear until Gen 11? Seems a weak link to me.

3. I do know that Jews do not believe in the triune God per se; however let me ask you this. In the Hebrew Bible there are several references to God as father. (The father of the nation of Israel as well as the father of some individuals) and there are references to the Holy Spirit as coming upon and indwelling some individuals. Does the Hebrew Bible consider the Messiah to be a fully Divine person and the human appearance of God? And if so, when the Messiah appears will believing Jews accept the triune nature of God...the Father, the Messiah, the Spirit?


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> That too. We knew best, didn't we CB? She logged off to try to come up with something SHE thinks is clever. I gave up hope for her a LOONG time ago.
> 
> What a sorry example for her son as you said.


What's up with id changing and closing browers/log off?
How trivial to stare at the screen and find things that mean nothing.
Do you keep a dossier?


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: I ..... can't ..... breathe!
> 
> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: I'm laughing so hard I may collapse.
> 
> ...


What did you swallow?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> What's up with id changing and closing browers/log off?
> How trivial to stare at the screen and find things that mean nothing.
> Do you keep a dossier?


Hi Squirrel,

We have not chatted for awhile. Mrs. Gifts likes to stir up things. But I also wonder why anyone would want to take the time to go thru archives to find meaningless posts, utterly insignificant posts. But I do like a lot of the ladies on the other side. It is just frustrating that when the conversation is going well, up pops a disrupter. So the good moments with everyone are precious.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

RosieO'Grady said:


> KPG is a good one to ask since she's frequently changing her ID. Right, Cheryl?


Before you leave, is Cheryl her real name?


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

SQM said:


> Thanks Purl. I was waiting until after dinner to ask Mrs. Gifts to be transparent and to openly address The Jewish Woman.


Beware the Jewish woman.!
why I don't know. She's going to take over the world? 《shaking head here》


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

RosieO'Grady said:


> Yes it is indeed.


How do you know?


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## annamatilda (Aug 10, 2012)

SQM said:


> How do you know?


And her real name is Lisa Gilbert


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

annamatilda said:


> And her real name is Lisa Gilbert


Well I knew the Lisa part. Cheryl is a good first name for Mrs. Gifts. Cheryl Gifts! Brings to mind charity, cherish, cherry, Christmas, etc.

What is my real name?

And I am not sure I know annamatilda so well. Enchanted.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

SQM said:


> Hi Squirrel,
> 
> We have not chatted for awhile. Mrs. Gifts likes to stir up things. But I also wonder why anyone would want to take the time to go thru archives to find meaningless posts, utterly insignificant posts. But I do like a lot of the ladies on the other side. It is just frustrating that when the conversation is going well, up pops a disrupter. So the good moments with everyone are precious.


Hi Slothy. Waving my hand.
I know. I've forgotten what this topic is. Hmmm.
Just trying to make my mind wander. A friend has a cancer Dx. Not sure how advanced. He's a really nice person.

Anyway, another friend has me hooked on Spider solitaire. When her dad was recovering from an illness he was hooked , too. I have the Tv ON trying to watch Extant. It gets more weird each week.
Beware......I must log off. I forgot to have dinner.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

RosieO'Grady said:


> Well, they _THINK_ it's "Lisa Gilbert".
> 
> Of course, they all insisted she was that broadway singer who did Judy Garland impressions too. It was Jody something, right?
> 
> ...


I like the name Lisa Gilbert. I was thinking it has marque value before you mentioned it is already taken. I hope it is your name. Not lady-like to insult anyone with a weight problem. Uncool.

To change the subject - my favorite commercial is Accura's with Sid Vicious singing "My Way". PP is a big Sinatra fan. I wonder if she heard it. He had a great brat voice.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

RosieO'Grady said:


> Oh, I LOVE Frank. I have some old LP's of him singing with Dorsey.


I only liked him during his columbia years. Did that include his time with the Dorsey band?

Be nice and live awhile.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

RosieO'Grady said:


> KPG is a good one to ask since she's frequently changing her ID. Right, Cheryl?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: And then acting like we don't know. Really!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> 1. In the not so distant past there was a big brouhaha about truth being an absolute or truth being relative. I thought I remembered it as you falling in the relative camp. (I could be wrong, perhaps it was someone else.) Do you contend then, as a mathematician, that truth is absolute?


I don't remember that brouhaha, so it probably wasn't me. But I think truth has to be absolute; if it isn't, then it's a good guess, but not truth. What's relative, however, is the way different people interpret it. Example: the existence of God. You undoubtedly believe that's a fact. Mr. X believes that the fact is there is no such being. You can't both be right, but you're not going to know which one of you is right (if either) until the time comes to meet Him, if you, Gerslay, are right, or go to your final rest with nothing to follow, if X is right.



> 2. Thanks for the explanation. I understand the use of singular verbs and adjectives indicating that Elohim functions as a singular noun. I can't go along with your guess however; you're making a supposition about the word Elohim in Gen 1:1 (the 4th word in the Bible) in comparison to and to differentiate from the idols Abram smashed when Abram doesn't even appear until Gen 11? Seems a weak link to me.


I thought of that while I was writing it, but decided to leave it because though Abram doesn't appear until later, the Bible was written later still, and the person writing this chapter knew of his existence and what he did to his father's idols. I guess here's another example of absolute truth and not knowing what it is. I have no doubt that the Bible was written over a period of time by several people (the one who wrote Genesis 1 is referred to as the Elohist, or E, because of his name for God). Reading the first two chapters makes that obvious as far as I'm concerned, though I'm sure that during the past 2,000 years people have had plenty of time to make up convincing reasons for the very different stories of the creation. The second chapter has a very different Creator from the Elohim of the first. (I think the author of Genesis 2 is called the Jahwist, or J, because suddenly there's this new 4-letter word that wasn't used in Gen. 1.)

But if you're right and I'm wrong and it was written by Moses taking dictation from God, Abram would have been known about.



> 3. I do know that Jews do not believe in the triune God per se; however let me ask you this. In the Hebrew Bible there are several references to God as father. (The father of the nation of Israel as well as the father of some individuals) and there are references to the Holy Spirit as coming upon and indwelling some individuals. Does the Hebrew Bible consider the Messiah to be a fully Divine person and the human appearance of God? And if so, when the Messiah appears will believing Jews accept the triune nature of God...the Father, the Messiah, the Spirit?


The Messiah, if he comes (and there's a lot of dispute about whether he will, or even whether it matters), will be a person (probably a man, though there's no real reason to think it couldn't be a woman - another example of relativism). If he comes, one story is that all evil will disappear and we won't study war no more - this is how Jews know that he hasn't dropped in yet; we expect him once and no more. Another story is that nothing will happen; people will have to figure out how to behave themselves by themselves. Personally, I don't care. Everybody should do the right thing - as s/he sees it - whether or not there has been/will be a Messiah.

As for the spirit, this becomes complicated. There are two Hebrew words that have been translated as "spirit" (there's another, _shade_, but that's used for supernatural types of spirit). One, _ruach_ means "breath" or "wind," which was present at the Creation - God breathed life into his creation; when it's used to mean "spirit," it refers to something like school spirit or high spirits, not an entity. The other, _neshama_, is mostly used to refer to a person's soul, though it can also refer to the feminine aspect of God, the part that worries about the children instead of getting angry at them.

Was that enough to put you to sleep? It certainly was for me. Good night, and please, no more hard questions.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> What's up with id changing and closing browers/log off?
> How trivial to stare at the screen and find things that mean nothing.
> Do you keep a dossier?


I think CB does. She often calls people by names they haven't used in a long time. You know how, in primitive societies, if someone knows your true name, s/he has power over you? Hence, the dossier.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> What did you swallow?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Beware the Jewish woman.!
> why I don't know. She's going to take over the world? 《shaking head here》


I can guarantee she's too tired to do anything like that.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I like the name Lisa Gilbert. I was thinking it has marque value before you mentioned it is already taken. I hope it is your name. Not lady-like to insult anyone with a weight problem. Uncool.
> 
> To change the subject - my favorite commercial is Accura's with Sid Vicious singing "My Way". PP is a big Sinatra fan. I wonder if she heard it. He had a great brat voice.


Never heard it. I don't watch TV at all, never hear any commercials. But all those old rockers are now coming back as real singers. Paul McCartney has an album of show tunes and other such songs. There's another one I've heard recently whose name escapes me - it was an odd name. I'm sure you find that very interesting.


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## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you for your very clear description of how you see the Trinity. I agree with what you say about respecting everyone's beliefs, and I still love your voice story.


Actually, God will speak to everyone; we only need to take time to listen instead of doing all the talking ourselves. That is something that our Pastor recently said in one of his sermons.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Tamarque - There's so much in your post that deserves attention that I don't know where to start, or why to start, since you've said it for me in so many places.
> 
> Okay, very little since I have a lot of other things to do: The 1%, or the increasing power of the corporations, seems to me as bad as Muslim terrorists, since they're all trying to destroy what until now has been a pretty good way to govern. One thing I remember from the Vietnam War days was an attempt to lift the Pentagon by encircling it and meditating on it. It would be wonderful if we could lift the consciences of the too-empowered few by using the consciousness of the disempowered many.
> 
> I'm at a loss to go on (plus I have to take care of household business), so I will simply thank you for doing all the heavy lifting for me. Maybe over the weekend I'll have more time to give it real thought, but you'll get no arguments from me.


Thanks for the memory--of the lifting of the Pentagon. I had forgotten that serendipity effort. I didn't participate as I was always too much the dialectical materialist to take that seriously back then. Since then, my definition of that paradigm has broadened to include the use of energy on different levels to create change.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Thanks for the memory--of the lifting of the Pentagon. I had forgotten that serendipity effort. I didn't participate as I was always too much the dialectical materialist to take that seriously back then. Since then, my definition of that paradigm has broadened to include the use of energy on different levels to create change.


You are inspirational. Teach. Me?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> The Messiah, if he comes (and there's a lot of dispute about whether he will, or even whether it matters), will be a person (probably a man, though there's no real reason to think it couldn't be a woman - another example of relativism). If he comes, one story is that all evil will disappear and we won't study war no more - this is how Jews know that he hasn't dropped in yet; we expect him once and no more. Another story is that nothing will happen; people will have to figure out how to behave themselves by themselves. Personally, I don't care. Everybody should do the right thing - as s/he sees it - whether or not there has been/will be a Messiah.
> 
> As for the spirit, this becomes complicated. There are two Hebrew words that have been translated as "spirit" (there's another, _shade_, but that's used for supernatural types of spirit). One, _ruach_ means "breath" or "wind," which was present at the Creation - God breathed life into his creation; when it's used to mean "spirit," it refers to something like school spirit or high spirits, not an entity. The other, _neshama_, is mostly used to refer to a person's soul, though it can also refer to the feminine aspect of God, the part that worries about the children instead of getting angry at them.
> 
> Was that enough to put you to sleep? It certainly was for me. Good night, and please, no more hard questions.


Brilliant job Rebbetzin.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Thanks for the memory--of the lifting of the Pentagon. I had forgotten that serendipity effort. I didn't participate as I was always too much the dialectical materialist to take that seriously back then. Since then, my definition of that paradigm has broadened to include the use of energy on different levels to create change.


Something you said brought it to mind. I've always believed that the human mind can produce miracles - not lifting buildings, perhaps, but certainly raising consciousness. Your definition covers that and a lot more.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for the logic lesson Purl. Good try.



Poor Purl said:


> The Messiah, if he comes (and there's a lot of dispute about whether he will, or even whether it matters), will be a person (probably a man, though there's no real reason to think it couldn't be a woman - another example of relativism). If he comes, one story is that all evil will disappear and we won't study war no more - this is how Jews know that he hasn't dropped in yet; we expect him once and no more. Another story is that nothing will happen; people will have to figure out how to behave themselves by themselves. Personally, I don't care. Everybody should do the right thing - as s/he sees it - whether or not there has been/will be a Messiah.
> 
> As for the spirit, this becomes complicated. There are two Hebrew words that have been translated as "spirit" (there's another, _shade_, but that's used for supernatural types of spirit). One, _ruach_ means "breath" or "wind," which was present at the Creation - God breathed life into his creation; when it's used to mean "spirit," it refers to something like school spirit or high spirits, not an entity. The other, _neshama_, is mostly used to refer to a person's soul, though it can also refer to the feminine aspect of God, the part that worries about the children instead of getting angry at them.
> 
> Was that enough to put you to sleep? It certainly was for me. Good night, and please, no more hard questions.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

How does this fit in with her bible? Please no answers from anyone but PoorPurl.



Poor Purl said:


> I think CB does. She often calls people by names they haven't used in a long time. You know how, in primitive societies, if someone knows your true name, s/he has power over you? Hence, the dossier.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Wouldn't you think it would be easier to straighten out a bunch of.....



Poor Purl said:


> I can guarantee she's too tired to do anything like that.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> How does this fit in with her bible? Please no answers from anyone but PoorPurl.


I don't know. She admits that she sins, and her record-keeping may be an example of that. But since she is certain that she's forgiven by her God, there's no need to apologize to the people she may have harmed by it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Wouldn't you think it would be easier to straighten out a bunch of.....


A bunch of what???


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Never heard it. I don't watch TV at all, never hear any commercials. But all those old rockers are now coming back as real singers. Paul McCartney has an album of show tunes and other such songs. There's another one I've heard recently whose name escapes me - it was an odd name. I'm sure you find that very interesting.


Boz Scaggs, that's who I meant. Still not so interesting.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> But why am I bothering to talk to someone who has said more than once that Jews are White Supremacists? She is someone who will never understand what a Jew is.


No matter how many times you make this statement, it doesn't make it true. it's past time for you to drop it.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I think CB does. She often calls people by names they haven't used in a long time. You know how, in primitive societies, if someone knows your true name, s/he has power over you? Hence, the dossier.


ahh, witch doctor mojo stff.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I thought it best to leave it to the imagination.



Poor Purl said:


> A bunch of what???


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I will not let your statement stand.

Accusing a Jew of participation in Anti-Semitic group, and publishing a member's full name is a combination of vicious lies and invasion of privacy.

Don't anyone dare minimize this type of behavior. And there are always those who will never forget.



soloweygirl said:


> No matter how many times you make this statement, it doesn't make it true. it's past time for you to drop it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> No matter how many times you make this statement, it doesn't make it true. it's past time for you to drop it.


No, it's past time for you to realize it's the truth. She posted that "opinion" twice. It may only be my opinion that that proves she's an anti-Semite, but it's in black and off-white that she wrote it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I thought it best to leave it to the imagination.


My imagination can get very weird.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I will not let your statement stand.
> 
> Accusing a Jew of participation in Anti-Semitic group, and publishing a member's full name is a combination of vicious lies and invasion of privacy.
> 
> Don't anyone dare minimize this type of behavior. And there are always those who will never forget.


She can't see the truth in it, probably because if she did, she'd have to admit she made a very bad choice of friends.

BTW, it wasn't just that KPG accused one Jew of being in an anti-Semitic group. She said that Jews are White Supremacists, and also that the people behind that awful WS website were Jewish.

Thank you yet again for having my back.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> She can't see the truth in it, probably because if she did, she'd have to admit she made a very bad choice of friends.
> 
> BTW, it wasn't just that KPG accused one Jew of being in an anti-Semitic group. She said that Jews are White Supremacists, and also that the people behind that awful WS website were Jewish.
> 
> Thank you yet again for having my back.


I never saw that. All I saw was the link you provided. You are the one that post it. I was shocked that you would be a Jew and make fun of Rabbi's. Looks like everyone jumped on your bandwagon with it was KPG. It was from you. You may have deleted it but I saw what you posted.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Do I dare ask what the heck you are talking about. Went back 6 pages and found no statement regarding the seeming subject.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Do I dare ask what the heck you are talking about. Went back 6 pages and found no statement regarding the seeming subject.


Exactly. The predictable invasion of those of the right upon those of the left. Tiresome yet consistent. Boils down to political inclinations. I'm somewhat miffed that I'm not a citizen of the USA because if I was, I could contribute to the political discussions with confidence. As it is however, things get nasty and personal particularly from those of the right.

Not long ago one of the rights 'KPG,' implied that 2 of the Jewish ladies here were associated with a white supremacist group. This was reported to admin and KPG was suspended.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> 1. I don't remember that brouhaha, so it probably wasn't me. But I think truth has to be absolute; if it isn't, then it's a good guess, but not truth. What's relative, however, is the way different people interpret it. Example: the existence of God. You undoubtedly believe that's a fact. Mr. X believes that the fact is there is no such being. You can't both be right, but you're not going to know which one of you is right (if either) until the time comes to meet Him, if you, Gerslay, are right, or go to your final rest with nothing to follow, if X is right.


Agreed. However, since a negative cannot be proved I do contend that the positive of that statement can be proved. Maybe not globally, but individually. God is to be experienced, not pondered under the old apple tree. Pondering might get you a new theorem or a Buddha belly but it wont get you God. If God is greater than I, then I am less than God. If and when I assume my rightful place in relation to God then we will be in a real relationship. That relationship is not comparative or relative to anything else, it is intrinsic. It moves beyond thinking and it moves beyond feelings to a knowingtrue faith is absolute knowledge.



Poor Purl said:


> 2. I thought of that while I was writing it, but decided to leave it because though Abram doesn't appear until later, the Bible was written later still, and the person writing this chapter knew of his existence and what he did to his father's idols. I guess here's another example of absolute truth and not knowing what it is. I have no doubt that the Bible was written over a period of time by several people (the one who wrote Genesis 1 is referred to as the Elohist, or E, because of his name for God). Reading the first two chapters makes that obvious as far as I'm concerned, though I'm sure that during the past 2,000 years people have had plenty of time to make up convincing reasons for the very different stories of the creation. The second chapter has a very different Creator from the Elohim of the first. (I think the author of Genesis 2 is called the Jahwist, or J, because suddenly there's this new 4-letter word that wasn't used in Gen. 1.)
> 
> But if you're right and I'm wrong and it was written by Moses taking dictation from God, Abram would have been known about.


The very different stories of the creation is a whole other megillah probably best not begun here. The rest I'll grant you as I'm in the Moses camp.



Poor Purl said:


> 3. The Messiah, if he comes (and theres a lot of dispute about whether he will or even whether it matters), will be a person (probably a man, though there's no real reason to think it couldn't be a woman - another example of relativism). If he comes, one story is that all evil will disappear and we won't study war no more - this is how Jews know that he hasn't dropped in yet; we expect him once and no more. Another story is that nothing will happen; people will have to figure out how to behave themselves by themselves. Personally, I don't care. Everybody should do the right thing - as s/he sees it - whether or not there has been/will be a Messiah.
> As for the spirit, this becomes complicated. There are two Hebrew words that have been translated as "spirit" (there's another, shade, but that's used for supernatural types of spirit). One, ruach means "breath" or "wind," which was present at the Creation - God breathed life into his creation; when it's used to mean "spirit," it refers to something like school spirit or high spirits, not an entity. The other, neshama, is mostly used to refer to a person's soul, though it can also refer to the feminine aspect of God, the part that worries about the children instead of getting angry at them.
> 
> Was that enough to put you to sleep? It certainly was for me. Good night, and please, no more hard questions.


The question was when the Messiah appears will believing Jews accept the triune nature of God...the Father, the Messiah, the Spirit? Ive asked that question of many Jews and I always get a similar answer to yours that while respectful of my question they skirt the issue and dont really answer it. It seems to be anathema to Jews to even consider the possibility that one day they too might come to know and understand the Trinity. I think its a fascinating question, but Ive discovered that not too many Jews agree.

Thanks for answering, I do appreciate your efforts and no more hard questions!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

"I think its a fascinating question, but Ive discovered that not too many Jews agree."

If Jews agreed to the trinity they would not be Jews. But of course the idea of a Messiah is Jewish but I think we are waiting for one superman.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

SQM said:


> "I think its a fascinating question, but Ive discovered that not too many Jews agree."
> 
> If Jews agreed to the trinity they would not be Jews. But of course the idea of a Messiah is Jewish but I think we are waiting for one superman.


SQM, You have to read the whole supposition before you get to the question...see #3 in my post to Purl...page 23.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Gerslay said:


> SQM, You have to read the whole supposition before you get to the question...see #3 in my post to Purl...page 23.


I read your supposition and answered what you said many Jews would not answer.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

*I am so sick of these threads degenerating into arguments about religion.*

I started this thread specifically to discuss the current disasters playing out in the world, some of which are going to impact our lives.

But here we are again, witnessing the same old tired dance.

*The United States of America IS NOT the only country in the world* I get that religion is an important way of life for many of you however, there are many other people who contribute to this site where religion isn't so prominent in their lives or it's not in their lives at all.

If you want to debate, discuss or argue religion then start a thread specifically for that. PLEASE!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> *I am so sick of these threads degenerating into arguments about religion.*
> 
> I started this thread specifically to discuss the current disasters playing out in the world, some of which are going to impact our lives.
> 
> ...


Okay.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

SQM said:


> I read your supposition and answered what you said many Jews would not answer.


No you didn't SQM, but that's okay.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> No you didn't SQM, but that's okay.


Read my post above Gerslay. Please.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Never heard it. I don't watch TV at all, never hear any commercials. But all those old rockers are now coming back as real singers. Paul McCartney has an album of show tunes and other such songs. There's another one I've heard recently whose name escapes me - it was an odd name. I'm sure you find that very interesting.


I love Rod Stewart's "Great American Songbook" albums.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> *I am so sick of these threads degenerating into arguments about religion.*
> 
> I started this thread specifically to discuss the current disasters playing out in the world, some of which are going to impact our lives.
> 
> ...


Do you contend that the things that are heating up in the world have nothing to do with religion?

Purl and I were having a very nice exchange...it had not degenerated into an argument.

Me thinks you are a control freak!


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> *I am so sick of these threads degenerating into arguments about religion.*
> 
> I started this thread specifically to discuss the current disasters playing out in the world, some of which are going to impact our lives.
> 
> ...


Wombat you are talking like a true blue Aussie and I do not think they will understand how we think. Just tell them you are a died in the wool Bush Baptist or perhaps a Callithumpian, two good old Aussie religions, a lot of them will not know what a Bush Baptist is. John Howard mentioned the Callithumpians on one occasion.

Did I ever tell you about the time I came across a group of men playing two up in the cemetery when I was a child? I thought they were a religious group. Standing in a circle, uttering something, raising their hands to the heavens, and uttering cries. I edged closer and asked one man if they were praying, he replied that they were. I ran home and told my mother and she told me not to be so stupid. Just a thought, though, I think a lot on this thread may not know what the group of men playing two up were actually doing. I think some of their minds may go into overdrive, coming up with wild speculations.

Fancy a schooner or will you settle for a middy. Carlton Draught???? or perhaps XXXX?

Joke, why do Queenslanders call their beer XXXX?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

The joke was disgusting Martha.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I never saw that. All I saw was the link you provided. You are the one that post it. I was shocked that you would be a Jew and make fun of Rabbi's. Looks like everyone jumped on your bandwagon with it was KPG. It was from you. You may have deleted it but I saw what you posted.


1. Jews make fun of rabbis all the time. They're not holy men; they just know more about Judaism. 
2. What I posted was something I was shocked to find on a website when I was looking for a rabbi smiley for something SQM posted. The site had some name with the word Christian, but it seemed so nasty, I found it hard to believe. I have since learned that it's a site that's not acceptable to most decent Christians, either. 
3. KPG assumed that I knew about the site, and accused me of trying to make Christians look bad. Since she's never wrong, nothing I said could convince her that it was a complete surprise (unpleasant) to me. Then she went on to other stuff: that the website owner is a Jew (not true), that White Supremacy is a Jewish movement (absolutely not true, since White Supremacists are mostly neo-Nazis and regard Jews as if we were black people). She obviously knew a lot more about that website than I did, but she refused to believe anything I said.
4. Then she posted that message with my last name, calling me and my husband White Supremacists, and putting SQM together with us. That's when I told Admin, and she was suspended.

I don't know whether you were able to follow this, but if you have questions, I'll answer them as best I can. Naturally, since KPG calls me a liar every chance she gets, you may not believe me, but my conscience is clear on this.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Do you contend that the things that are heating up in the world have nothing to do with religion?
> 
> Purl and I were having a very nice exchange...it had not degenerated into an argument.
> 
> Me thinks you are a control freak!


Such a Christian statement "Me thinks..."

Exchange elsewhere. It's not an unreasonable request.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> The joke was disgusting Martha.


Are you referring to the men playing two up? or to people belonging to the Bush Baptists or being Callithumpians? or to how Queenslanders spell their beer?

Please tell me what is disgusting. I honestly think you are referring to a group of men playing two up and that is because you actually have absolutely no idea what the game of two up is and have jumped off the deep end into the sea of incorrect assumptions. Two up is a favourite pastime here in Oz.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Wombat you are talking like a true blue Aussie and I do not think they will understand how we think. Just tell them you are a died in the wool Bush Baptist or perhaps a Callithumpian, two good old Aussie religions, a lot of them will not know what a Bush Baptist is. John Howard mentioned the Callithumpians on one occasion.
> 
> Did I ever tell you about the time I came across a group of men playing two up in the cemetery when I was a child? I thought they were a religious group. Standing in a circle, uttering something, raising their hands to the heavens, and uttering cries. I edged closer and asked one man if they were praying, he replied that they were. I ran home and told my mother and she told me not to be so stupid. Just a thought, though, I think a lot on this thread may not know what the group of men playing two up were actually doing. I think some of their minds may go into overdrive, coming up with wild speculations.
> 
> ...


Eve

You could not be more correct and I for one am incredibly fortunate to live in this wonderful country of ours! Middy for me and why do Queenslanders call their beer XXXX you ask?

'Cos they don't know how to spell grog?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> The joke was disgusting Martha.


We know you're rigid with your religion and now with your judgement.

Butt out.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Eve
> 
> You could not be more correct and I for one am incredibly fortunate to live in this wonderful country of ours! Middy for me and why do Queenslanders call their beer XXXX you ask?
> 
> 'Cos they don't know how to spell grog?


Yep, you earned the elephant stamp for today. I just wonder why CB called the joke disgusting. I am laughing as I love that joke about the XXXX and at one time I did live in Queensland. The Banana Benders also laughed at it.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Such a Christian statement "Me thinks..."
> 
> Exchange elsewhere. It's not an unreasonable request.


"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" is a quotation from the 1602 play Hamlet by William Shakespeare. It has been used as a figure of speech, in various pieces of literature ..."

I will post where I please...you are not the boss of me!


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" is a quotation from the 1602 play Hamlet by William Shakespeare. It has been used as a figure of speech, in various pieces of literature ..."
> 
> I will post where I please...you are not the boss of me!


 :lol:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" is a quotation from the 1602 play Hamlet by William Shakespeare. It has been used as a figure of speech, in various pieces of literature ..."
> 
> I will post where I please...you are not the boss of me!


Duh! Your 'quote' lead to labelling me a control freak which I don't think is terribly Christian of you.

In fact, so many Christians around here prove without a shadow of a doubt that they're very 'unChristian' more often than not. Hypocrisy at it's worst.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> :lol:


Why don't you answer Eve's question?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Yep, you earned the elephant stamp for today. I just wonder why CB called the joke disgusting. I am laughing as I love that joke about the XXXX and at one time I did live in Queensland. The Banana Benders also laughed at it.


A broomstick comes to mind.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Are you referring to the men playing two up? or to people belonging to the Bush Baptists or being Callithumpians? or to how Queenslanders spell their beer?
> 
> Please tell me what is disgusting. I honestly think you are referring to a group of men playing two up and that is because you actually have absolutely no idea what the game of two up is and have jumped off the deep end into the sea of incorrect assumptions. Two up is a favourite pastime here in Oz.


I am not really offended. I wanted to make sure you were Martha. I guess you are. :shock:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Do I dare ask what the heck you are talking about. Went back 6 pages and found no statement regarding the seeming subject.


Six months would have been closer. I think the whole thing happened in April.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I am not really offended. I wanted to make sure you were Martha. I guess you are. :shock:


A deceptive Christian! Hmmm...interesting.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Duh! Your 'quote' lead to labelling me a control freak which I don't think is terribly Christian of you.
> 
> In fact, so many Christians around here prove without a shadow of a doubt that they're very 'unChristian' more often than not. Hypocrisy at it's worst.


Nice try Wombat, but its obvious you're upset that you're losing control of "your thread" to religious postings and you don't like it. Hence why you're trying to drive away anyone that appears to be too religious for you.

You need to relax a little!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Exactly. The predictable invasion of those of the right upon those of the left. Tiresome yet consistent. Boils down to political inclinations. I'm somewhat miffed that I'm not a citizen of the USA because if I was, I could contribute to the political discussions with confidence. As it is however, things get nasty and personal particularly from those of the right.
> 
> Not long ago one of the rights 'KPG,' implied that 2 of the Jewish ladies here were associated with a white supremacist group. This was reported to admin and KPG was suspended.


A nice, short summary. Except that KPG didn't *imply* it; she outright said it.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Nice try Wombat, but its obvious you're upset that you're losing control of "your thread" to religious postings and you don't like it. Hence why you're trying to drive away anyone that appears to be too religious for you.
> 
> You need to relax a little!


Whatever...


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> A nice, short summary. Except that KPG didn't *imply* it; she outright said it.


Sorry, memory of said incident not so sharp. Nevertheless, she was suspended and deservedly so. I'm getting hammered through PMs about my post about it. Are you?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> A deceptive Christian! Hmmm...interesting.


No just wise. I don't like being lied to. :shock:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> No just wise. I don't like being lied to. :shock:


Whatever...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> The question was when the Messiah appears will believing Jews accept the triune nature of God...the Father, the Messiah, the Spirit? Ive asked that question of many Jews and I always get a similar answer to yours that while respectful of my question they skirt the issue and dont really answer it. It seems to be anathema to Jews to even consider the possibility that one day they too might come to know and understand the Trinity. I think its a fascinating question, but Ive discovered that not too many Jews agree.
> 
> Thanks for answering, I do appreciate your efforts and no more hard questions!


This is all I got when I hit Quote Reply, so this is all I'll respond to.

No, Jews have no reason to believe in the "triune nature of God." God is one, and only one. In fact, every Passover we sing a song that begins

Who knows one? I know one. One is our God in heaven and on earth. 
Who knows two? I know two. Two are the tablets of the law (i.e., the 10 Commandments).
Who knows three? I know three. Three are our forefathers (i.e., Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob). 
The song goes all the way to 13 (13 are the attributes of God, according to Maimonides), and nowhere does it say anything about other than God's singular nature. Three are the forefathers, four are the foremothers, 9 are the months of pregnancy - the song covers a lot of stuff, but no son of God and no Holy Spirit.

Is that direct enough for you? I think the Jews you've asked were skirting the issue out of politeness.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

While touring the Brittania we entered the Officer's Mess and noticed a sad looking wonky wombat hanging off the ceiling fan. It was explained that when the officers get really bored on the yacht that they take to playing Wombat Tennis and bat ye olde poor wombat around the room. 

I thought you'd get a kick out of it...enjoy!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> "I think its a fascinating question, but Ive discovered that not too many Jews agree."
> 
> If Jews agreed to the trinity they would not be Jews. But of course the idea of a Messiah is Jewish but I think we are waiting for one superman.


Or a plain old Jewish mother.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> This is all I got when I hit Quote Reply, so this is all I'll respond to.
> 
> No, Jews have no reason to believe in the "triune nature of God." God is one, and only one. In fact, every Passover we sing a song that begins
> 
> ...


Yes, thank you. I don't think they were all being polite, I think some of them have scales on their eyes; but that is another discussion for another time. Me thinks Wombat is getting upset with us!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> *I am so sick of these threads degenerating into arguments about religion.*
> 
> I started this thread specifically to discuss the current disasters playing out in the world, some of which are going to impact our lives.
> 
> ...


You're right, but if you recall, Joeysomma started a thread about abortion and it went everywhere. I don't want to be discussing religion here, either, but there are reasons I've responded to what I see as wrong thinking. I'll try to restrain myself.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I love Rod Stewart's "Great American Songbook" albums.


I've never heard those. He's not American, is he?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Sorry, memory of said incident not so sharp. Nevertheless, she was suspended and deservedly so. I'm getting hammered through PMs about my post about it. Are you?


Not hammered...its just another version of Wombat Tennis!

:XD: :XD: :XD:

C'mon Womby...lighten up!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

I googled 'NATO' and their website came up. Good way to keep abreast with what's going on at the summit currently underway:

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_room.htm

Ukraine is doing well through the summit. 15 million euros pledged to them.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Not hammered...its just another version of Wombat Tennis!
> 
> :XD: :XD: :XD:
> 
> C'mon Womby...lighten up!


Okay but I'm not a control freak and I'm not trying to control this thread. Just want it to get back on track.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I've never heard those. He's not American, is he?


No, he is a Pommie, born and reared in London. I do not know if he is a Cockney, I do not know if he was born within the sounds of Bow Bells. He also has Scottish ancestry.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Yep, you earned the elephant stamp for today. I just wonder why CB called the joke disgusting. I am laughing as I love that joke about the XXXX and at one time I did live in Queensland. The Banana Benders also laughed at it.


Obviously because her interpretation of the joke came from her own mind, which apparently is disgusting.

Your slang is a whole foreign language to me. I don't know whether I'll ever figure it out, but it's fun to read.

And I see CB has a dossier on you, since she called you Martha. I think her record-keeping is a sign of OCD.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Sorry, memory of said incident not so sharp. Nevertheless, she was suspended and deservedly so. I'm getting hammered through PMs about my post about it. Are you?


No, not one. But if it's the righties doing the hammering, they all call me a liar anyway, so why would they bother with me?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Obviously because her interpretation of the joke came from her own mind, which apparently is disgusting.
> 
> Your slang is a whole foreign language to me. I don't know whether I'll ever figure it out, but it's fun to read.
> 
> And I see CB has a dossier on you, since she called you Martha. I think her record-keeping is a sign of OCD.


Just a good memory.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Obviously because her interpretation of the joke came from her own mind, which apparently is disgusting.
> 
> Your slang is a whole foreign language to me. I don't know whether I'll ever figure it out, but it's fun to read.
> 
> And I see CB has a dossier on you, since she called you Martha. I think her record-keeping is a sign of OCD.


Oh well, it keeps her off the streets, as we say down here in Oz. If you are not sure what that means I will have to send you a PM about it, but it is definitely not religious. I think our humour relates back to the Cockney humour with a large dash of Irish humour. We certainly like to take the Mickey. We also like to cut tall poppies down to size.

Hey, Wombat, your shout, my glass is empty. Or are we in Slim Dusty country and wandered in to the Pub with no beer.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> No, not one. But if it's the righties doing the hammering, they all call me a liar anyway, so why would they bother with me?


I have never called you a liar. I've called you other things, and even muttered a few under my breath, but I never called you a liar!

:lol:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> No, he is a Pommie, born and reared in London. I do not know if he is a Cockney, I do not know if he was born within the sounds of Bow Bells. He also has Scottish ancestry.


Then he is a mutt. Like most of us.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Oh well, it keeps her off the streets, as we say down here in Oz. If you are not sure what that means I will have to send you a PM about it, but it is definitely not religious. I think our humour relates back to the Cockney humour with a large dash of Irish humour. We certainly like to take the Mickey. We also like to cut tall poppies down to size.
> 
> Hey, Wombat, your shout, my glass is empty. Or are we in Slim Dusty country and wandered in to the Pub with no beer.


Oh, well. We have the same expression here, about keeping her off the streets. The rest of your message could have been written in Finno-Ugric for all I understood.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> I have never called you a liar. I've called you other things, and even muttered a few under my breath, but I never called you a liar!
> 
> :lol:


Thank you. You may be the only person on D&P who hasn't.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Then he is a mutt. Like most of us.


That reminds me...remember when the Sunday comics had Mutt & Jeff on the front page?

Augustus Mutt and Jeff "first last and always, just Jeff"...I loved them!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Oh well, it keeps her off the streets, as we say down here in Oz. If you are not sure what that means I will have to send you a PM about it, but it is definitely not religious. I think our humour relates back to the Cockney humour with a large dash of Irish humour. We certainly like to take the Mickey. We also like to cut tall poppies down to size.
> 
> Hey, Wombat, your shout, my glass is empty. Or are we in Slim Dusty country and wandered in to the Pub with no beer.


And with what would you care to imbibe? Champers, Bundy, Black Velvet, Goom?


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Oh, well. We have the same expression here, about keeping her off the streets. The rest of your message could have been written in Finno-Ugric for all I understood.


Lesson in Strine for the day. Strine is the version of English spoken in OZ.
Taking the Mickey (Mickey Bliss, Cockney rhyming slang) or taking the Michael is another term for making fun of someone. These terms are most widely used in the United Kingdom, Ireland, South Africa, New Zealand and Australia.
Taking the piss is a British term meaning to take liberties at the expense of others, or to be unreasonable. It is often used to mean (or confused with) taking the piss out of, which is an expression meaning to mock, tease, ridicule, or scoff.[1] It is also not to be confused with "taking a piss", which refers to the act of urinating. 
The tall poppy syndrome (TPS) is a pejorative term primarily used in the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other Anglosphere nations to describe a social phenomenon in which people of genuine merit are resented, attacked, cut down, or criticised because their talents or achievements elevate them above or distinguish them from their peers.
Australia and New Zealand's usage of the term has evolved and is not uniformly negative. In Australia, a long history of "underdog" culture and profound respect for humility in contrast to that of Australia's English feudal heritage results in a different understanding of "Tall poppy syndrome".
Of the Australian definition, Peter Hartcher of the Sydney Morning Herald writes, "(Australian) Citizens know that some among them will have more power and money than others... But according to the unspoken national ethos, no Australian is permitted to assume that he or she is better than any other Australian. How is this enforced? By the prompt corrective of levelling derision. It has a nameThe "Tall Poppy Syndrome". The tallest flowers in the field will be cut down to the same size as all the others. This is sometimes misunderstood...It isn't success that offends Australians. It's the affront committed by anyone who starts to put on superior airs."
My glass is empty ---- is more of a question, asking who is buying the next round. Round refers to the round of beer, or whatever you are drinking.
My glass is empty is often responded to by someone saying I'm getting a round in. What are you having?

A Pub With No Beer is the title of a humorous country song made famous by country singers Slim Dusty


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Lesson in Strine for the day. Strine is the version of English spoken in OZ.
> Taking the Mickey (Mickey Bliss, Cockney rhyming slang) or taking the Michael is another term for making fun of someone. These terms are most widely used in the United Kingdom, Ireland, South Africa, New Zealand and Australia.
> Taking the piss is a British term meaning to take liberties at the expense of others, or to be unreasonable. It is often used to mean (or confused with) taking the piss out of, which is an expression meaning to mock, tease, ridicule, or scoff.[1] It is also not to be confused with "taking a piss", which refers to the act of urinating.
> The tall poppy syndrome (TPS) is a pejorative term primarily used in the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other Anglosphere nations to describe a social phenomenon in which people of genuine merit are resented, attacked, cut down, or criticised because their talents or achievements elevate them above or distinguish them from their peers.
> ...


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> And with what would you care to imbibe? Champers, Bundy, Black Velvet, Goom?


I'll have a bundy and coke, thanks mate.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I'll have a bundy and coke, thanks mate.


No worries! Do you want a beer chaser or a vodka?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> That reminds me...remember when the Sunday comics had Mutt & Jeff on the front page?
> 
> Augustus Mutt and Jeff "first last and always, just Jeff"...I loved them!


Of course, except in our paper they weren't on the front page. I think that was Li'l Abner.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Lesson in Strine for the day. Strine is the version of English spoken in OZ.
> Taking the Mickey (Mickey Bliss, Cockney rhyming slang) or taking the Michael is another term for making fun of someone. These terms are most widely used in the United Kingdom, Ireland, South Africa, New Zealand and Australia.
> Taking the piss is a British term meaning to take liberties at the expense of others, or to be unreasonable. It is often used to mean (or confused with) taking the piss out of, which is an expression meaning to mock, tease, ridicule, or scoff.<1> It is also not to be confused with "taking a piss", which refers to the act of urinating.
> The tall poppy syndrome (TPS) is a pejorative term primarily used in the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other Anglosphere nations to describe a social phenomenon in which people of genuine merit are resented, attacked, cut down, or criticised because their talents or achievements elevate them above or distinguish them from their peers.
> ...


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> No worries! Do you want a beer chaser or a vodka?


Beer chaser and see if they have any more salt and vinegar potato chips, please.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Thanks Eve--idiomatic language is fascinating. You can study a whole culture thru it and it so colorful.

As for these OCD religion proselytizers: Need to ignore them as you will never get anywhere with them. And you just keep feeding into their egos, giving them more platform for their stuff. 

What is never mentioned it seems, so let me, while some of them (CB, et al) think they are doing something when asking Jews if they will ever accept the myth of trinity, they don't talk about all the many who leave Christianity and the church, not always the same thing. Back in the 1960-70's when the Catholic church was having a hard time sustaining itself due to loss of members in the US, it began to present nuns in secular garb, having them live in the community and modernize its behavior and even thinking. This being only one tactic showing its political response to being rejected by many. Immigration, legal or not, from S. America has boosted its membership once again. Interesting sociology here.

Another piece to keep in mind. Remember the Rev. Phelps, mr. anti-gay himself. Phelps would go around stirring up dissension, particularly where gay activity was organized. He and a handful of his people would stand on the street screaming at people and carrying on. His daughter who as a little one was a very cute red head. He would have her spitting on people. He would do everything he could incite reactions. Then he would call for arrests of the person(s) and waste time in court. His goal was to waste time and energy and money in the hope of crashing gay support. He always lost in court. He did not have the huge money organization behind him that Hobby Lobby has which paid their way into the Supreme Court on the birth control issue.

When Phelps died last year, his son wrote a piece in which he apologized for his father's rotten behavior. The man terrorized his family and people into supporting him but the son, got his retribution in this piece. It must have been very cathartic for him to do. It was published in many places, especially in gay circles.

What I see these so-called religious people doing is actually running a form of Jihad against the majority who do not support them. That's right--a major majority. Most people keep their religion to themselves or certainly don't try to subsume every political or progressive conversation into one of their religious ventures. They remind me of the European missionaries who imposed themselves on the Native Americans with such dire consequences. The church has always used the power of the gun to impose its belief systems on others. And please remember that the courts are only an extension of this fire power. 


I must say I have no respect for people who behave this way no matter what their religion. And it seems a sad fact that every religion has its fundamentalists who will turn rabid. This has nothing to do with spirituality.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you. Well presented.



tamarque said:


> Thanks Eve--idiomatic language is fascinating. You can study a whole culture thru it and it so colorful.
> 
> As for these OCD religion proselytizers: Need to ignore them as you will never get anywhere with them. And you just keep feeding into their egos, giving them more platform for their stuff.
> 
> ...


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Thanks Eve--idiomatic language is fascinating. You can study a whole culture thru it and it so colorful.
> 
> As for these OCD religion proselytizers: Need to ignore them as you will never get anywhere with them. And you just keep feeding into their egos, giving them more platform for their stuff.
> 
> ...


Your last paragraph is so true, even Buddhism has its fundamentalists. I speak from experience here, but my comments are best left to PMs as I do not want to upset anyone.

We have the equivalent of Rev Phelps here. The Rev Fred Niles. He is an elected member of Federal Parliament now, and of late has calmed down. Boy oh boy did he push his barrow back in the 70s.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

tamarque said:


> I must say I have no respect for people who behave this way no matter what their religion. And it seems a sad fact that every religion has its fundamentalists who will turn rabid. This has nothing to do with spirituality.


I have enjoyed reading your comments here and I do agree with this one wholeheartedly.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

tamarque said:


> Thanks Eve--idiomatic language is fascinating. You can study a whole culture thru it and it so colorful.
> 
> As for these OCD religion proselytizers: Need to ignore them as you will never get anywhere with them. And you just keep feeding into their egos, giving them more platform for their stuff.
> 
> ...


I'll take Bump's quotes, even tho I am an atheist, over your damning the "horror show" - Israel.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

SQM said:


> I'll take Bump's quotes, even tho I am an atheist, over your damning the "horror show" - Israel.


Being late to the party, I think I missed Bump's quotes. How are you cute sloth?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Hi Precious and Chubby Panda,

All's well as long as I don't listen to the news.

Et vous?


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

SQM said:


> Hi Precious and Chubby Panda,
> 
> All's well as long as I don't listen to the news.
> 
> Et vous?


Tres bien!


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

SQM--are you trying to goad me into an argument about Isreal? Your comment has nothing to do with the statement I made here which did not single any religion or State out so stay on target.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

tamarque said:


> SQM--are you trying to goad me into an argument about Isreal? Your comment has nothing to do with the statement I made here which did not single any religion or State out so stay on target.


No. That would be a total time waster. I was just expressing my opinion on Bump's prayers. Allowed still I assume since IS has not nationalized KP yet.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Just checking since you comment felt like a non-seqitor


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

SQM said:


> No. That would be a total time waster. I was just expressing my opinion on Bump's prayers. Allowed still I assume since IS has not nationalized KP yet.


Pandas could nationalize KP, just sayin'.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

This story is worrying. Seems IS now have Egypt in their sights:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/05/us-egypt-islamicstate-idUSKBN0H018F20140905


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Just watched a BBC story about the Taliban wanting to join forces with IS. Great! Egypt and Afghanistan will be no more when the caliphate is formed.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Beer chaser and see if they have any more salt and vinegar potato chips, please.


Righto! What about some beer nuts?

And remember this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ettamogah_Pub


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

This is good news.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/05/al-shabaab-leader-godane-killed-us-airstrike-somalia


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Righto! What about some beer nuts?
> 
> And remember this?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ettamogah_Pub


Yep, beer nuts are fine. We had an Ettamogah Pub not too far away in Morley but it has been taken over and morphed into another fast food chain. I loved those cartoons in the Post.

I see you were taken to task somewhere else because of your question about beer nuts, perhaps they do not have these tasty nuts in their neck of the woods.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> *I am so sick of these threads degenerating into arguments about religion.*
> 
> I started this thread specifically to discuss the current disasters playing out in the world, some of which are going to impact our lives.
> 
> ...


No but She is the first one the world calls on for help in time of crisis. And since we are a nation founded on religion, religion is very important to most Americans. (Wasn't your country formed as a penal colony?) So the world can take us as we are or stop depending on us to help them. We are asked to help against ISIS, which is a militant Islamic terrorist group, but you are offended when an American talks about their belief in God?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Yep, beer nuts are fine. We had an Ettamogah Pub not too far away in Morley but it has been taken over and morphed into another fast food chain. I loved those cartoons in the Post.
> 
> I see you were taken to task somewhere else because of your question about beer nuts, perhaps they do not have these tasty nuts in their neck of the woods.


There are plenty of nuts in their neck of the woods, but no taste.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> No but She is the first one the world calls on for help in time of crisis. And since we are a nation founded on religion, religion is very important to most Americans. (Wasn't your country formed as a penal colony?) So the world can take us as we are or stop depending on us to help them. We are asked to help against ISIS, which is a militant Islamic terrorist group, but you are offended when an American talks about their belief in God?


Just a few facts

Not all Australian states were penal colonies.
America was the destination for British convicts prior to the American war of independence

Initially many British convicts were sent to the American colonies, such as the Province of Georgia, as cheap labour. The transportation of convicts from the United Kingdom began around 1615 and became increasingly common in the following years. Initially most people were transported to North America or the West Indies. From 1718 onwards transportation was entirely to North America. The arrangements ceased when the War of Independence meant it was no longer possible for the United Kingdom to send convicts to North America.

This forum was a worldwide coverage, it is read by people outside of the USA. Not all people of the world follow the same religions and fervour of the USA. All we are asking is that some posters tone down their constant bible quotes as it is seen as thrusting their religion in the faces of others. Not only the bible quotes but the constant sanctimonious statements that you are praying for us, we will burn in hell, that you are praying that we will follow your chosen religious path, the list could go on. Question: What would your reaction be if someone posted the words Allah Akbar at the end of every one of their posts? Boy oh boy would you rant and rave. Well, you are doing the Christian equivalent of this.

And by the way, your statement that "So the world can take us as we are or stop depending on us to help them" is also well off beam. It was the USA who asked the rest of the world to help them in Vietnam, it was your war. The rest of the world did not ask the USA for help in Vietnam.

It was the USA who asked the rest of the world to help them in Iraq. This was was also started by you. The rest of the world did not ask the USA for help in Iraq.

It was the USA who asked the rest of the world to help them in Afghanistan, this was also your war. The rest of the world did not ask the USA for help in Afghanistan.

So if you want the rest of the world to come in and help you again then you should be aware of the correct facts. The USA asked the rest of the world to help them in Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam. The rest of the world did not ask the USA to help them fight wars in these countries.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Ah, another clear-headed Aussie here. I think your comments are very well made. 

You need to understand that Americans are pretty well ignorant of world affairs and fall into the clap trap fed by the news entertainment business of propaganda. 

What I would add to your comments is the fact that the US has instigated most of the wars and conflicts in the world over the past 50 yrs. It has sent their 'advisors' in advance to place their people up close and personal to other country's business and then done their 'magic' of spreading money to sectors they think will do its nefarious bidding for political change of leadership and control of major resources--everything from oil, gas and water ways. Witness the Ukraine today which was a CIA intervention with $5 million-billion supporting a neo? Nazi coup. The deal was the US would support this division of the people feeding money, arms and advice in exchange for putting its business nazi into the leadership. 

The US, suffering a serious case of hubris and exceptionalism (talk about national narcissism) is controlling all of NATO and the propaganda machine internationally it seems. Even Al Jazeera English which is usually much better at providing balanced news and raising questions that are more pointed and on target, has fallen into step on this Ukrainian mess. The current Wales gathering, dishonestly put together to talk about Afghanistan, is all about ensuring Western States are on board with the assault on Russia. Germany, for example, was a bit wishy washy as it gets a huge amount of its gas from Russia and needed to be locked into the US agenda more tightly.

I totally agree with you that it is the US who seeks international support to justify its militaristic/economic expansion in the world.

And let me add a bit of history here. The US was settled by the excess ruling class population which lost land rights due to the inheritance laws of the England and France, and very poor people who agreed to indenture themselves for 7 yrs in exchange for getting out of prison. Thus, the US began with a mentality of using poor people for enforced labor. Slavery fit the bill even better and the design of racist laws along with the concept of racism was an outgrowth of this.

Before this people did not see themselves a 'white.' The issue of saving the white race did not exist but now we see the extremes of this in the US . In a white supremacist country we have groups ranging from neo-Nazi's and the KKK to the Tea Party and the fundamentalist religious right who organize around saving the endangered white race. The entire anti-social services agenda is based on the false belief that people of color are ripping off the public and the white workers need to be protected. However, the stupidity of this type of thinking is that when social services are cut there are many more white people affected than people of color. So people are so caught up in this delusional thinking they join forces with groups that promote economic and political policies that are designed to hurt ALL working people. I mean if Social Security is cut, white folks will be losing their entitlements that they worked for, just as will people of color who had to work in the exact same way.

This little historical comments does not even begin to address the disgusting attitude of the Europeans towards the Native Americans they encountered here. Many of these Native people assisted the Europeans materially, teaching them how to survive on these lands. Without that help they all would have perished and many of them actually did. These wealthy landless elites never worked a day in their life and were ridiculously helpless. All they had were indentured servants who were looking for their own freedom.

But instead of logic we get the cockamamie comments of these self-righteous people.

Good to know you.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39585.htm

you will have to cut and paste this link as my computer won't let me copy and paste right now.

just read this article by Robert Reich whose credentials, listed at the end, are superb. he, like organizations such as Global Research, are daring to speak the truth on the Ukraine debacle. the level of lies to the public are even beyond the fake Gulf of Tonkin incident which got us into the non-Korea war.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Maybe you should get some facts straight!
> "the level of lies to the public are even beyond the fake Gulf of Tonkin incident which got us into the non-Korea war." Really ????


You don't dispute that, do you, Joey? The second attack never happened, as even Herrick acknowledged at the time.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> And you agree with tamarque's facts????


I agree with some things she says, disagree with others--but there's no question that the second Gulf of Tonkin "incident" was a fake and a fraud.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I mentioned months ago that France and the US were baiting Russia and so I liked that article a lot. Again I repeat, Putin is not the bad guy here - it is the Neo-Nazis from Western Ukraine that need to be stopped. Thanks for the post - was it Tamarque?


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Just a few facts
> 
> Not all Australian states were penal colonies.
> America was the destination for British convicts prior to the American war of independence
> ...


Darlin' The US bailed out France in Vietnam

The US did not start the war in Iraq, the terrorists that took over planes and murdered over 3,000 people did. If you don't get watch the documentary by a French news team that were following a rookie NYC firefighter on 9/11. Listen to the continuous thumps on the entrance doorway's roof, and when the newsman asked what was that, the firefighter said 'jumpers". My friend was in the Towers Hotel, a friend left his office to have a client sign some papers, and he was the only one left alive from his company, my children could not get out of their high school because it was 5 miles from the CIA and 15 miles from the Capital and they could not get the buses there to bring them home, so the school finally stuffed as many kids in the Junior and Senior's cars that they could just to get them home, no cell phones, no landlines; so the only thing I regret is that those terrorists' desert home was not turned into to glass.

So remembering a documentary about Australia and how the country is becoming atheistic and almost godless, I am not surprised by some of the comments here.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> I mentioned months ago that France and the US were baiting Russia and so I liked that article a lot. Again I repeat, Putin is not the bad guy here - it is the Neo-Nazis from Western Ukraine that need to be stopped. Thanks for the post - was it Tamarque?


That is one of the most ignorant comments I think I have read in a long time. Putin is taking over the another country by military force with money, training and support.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> That is one of the most ignorant comments I think I have read in a long time. Putin is taking over the another country by military force with money, training and support.


Lake: You can disagree with me without insulting.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> That is one of the most ignorant comments I think I have read in a long time. Putin is taking over the another country by military force with money, training and support.


Just like Hitler attempted, yet SQM likes Putin.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Just a few facts
> 
> Not all Australian states were penal colonies.
> America was the destination for British convicts prior to the American war of independence
> ...


Thank you, Eve. The jingoists are alive and well, and seem to believe that the only way to deal with criticism is by looking tougher and meaner. So they sound like 9-year-olds threatening to leave the game and take the ball with them.

I have to admit that we (at any rate, I) have never been taught this history in school. I didn't know we were a penal colony, though it makes a lot of sense.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Maybe you should get some facts straight!
> "the level of lies to the public are even beyond the fake Gulf of Tonkin incident which got us into the non-Korea war." Really ????


Well, it didn't get us into the Korean War, did it? So it _did_ get us into a non-Korea War. In fact, it served very well to get us into the Vietnam War, another war that shouldn't have been fought.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Darlin' The US bailed out France in Vietnam
> 
> The US did not start the war in Iraq, the terrorists that took over planes and murdered over 3,000 people did. If you don't get watch the documentary by a French news team that were following a rookie NYC firefighter on 9/11. Listen to the continuous thumps on the entrance doorway's roof, and when the newsman asked what was that, the firefighter said 'jumpers". My friend was in the Towers Hotel, a friend left his office to have a client sign some papers, and he was the only one left alive from his company, my children could not get out of their high school because it was 5 miles from the CIA and 15 miles from the Capital and they could not get the buses there to bring them home, so the school finally stuffed as many kids in the Junior and Senior's cars that they could just to get them home, no cell phones, no landlines; so the only thing I regret is that those terrorists' desert home was not turned into to glass.
> 
> So remembering a documentary about Australia and how the country is becoming atheistic and almost godless, I am not surprised by some of the comments here.


Since those terrorists had nothing to do with Iraq, how did they start the war in Iraq? That was a choice made by - well, you know who.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you, Eve. The jingoists are alive and well, and seem to believe that the only way to deal with criticism is by looking tougher and meaner. So they sound like 9-year-olds threatening to leave the game and take the ball with them.
> 
> I have to admit that we (at any rate, I) have never been taught this history in school. I didn't know we were a penal colony, though it makes a lot of sense.


We can glorify the US all day long, but this country is guilty of many sins.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Lake: You can disagree with me without insulting.


That's what you think.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree with some things she says, disagree with others--but there's no question that the second Gulf of Tonkin "incident" was a fake and a fraud.


Susan, Susan, Susan, you're not paying attention. Joey doesn't care about the Tonkin resolution. She caught Tamarque accidentally referring to Korea rather than Vietnam, and that was the most important part of the message.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Darlin' The US bailed out France in Vietnam
> 
> The US did not start the war in Iraq, the terrorists that took over planes and murdered over 3,000 people did. If you don't get watch the documentary by a French news team that were following a rookie NYC firefighter on 9/11. Listen to the continuous thumps on the entrance doorway's roof, and when the newsman asked what was that, the firefighter said 'jumpers". My friend was in the Towers Hotel, a friend left his office to have a client sign some papers, and he was the only one left alive from his company, my children could not get out of their high school because it was 5 miles from the CIA and 15 miles from the Capital and they could not get the buses there to bring them home, so the school finally stuffed as many kids in the Junior and Senior's cars that they could just to get them home, no cell phones, no landlines; so the only thing I regret is that those terrorists' desert home was not turned into to glass.
> 
> So remembering a documentary about Australia and how the country is becoming atheistic and almost godless, I am not surprised by some of the comments here.


And guess who trained those pilots? We did.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> We can glorify the US all day long, but this country is guilty of many sins.


You know the quotation: "My country right or wrong: if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you, Eve. The jingoists are alive and well, and seem to believe that the only way to deal with criticism is by looking tougher and meaner. So they sound like 9-year-olds threatening to leave the game and take the ball with them.
> 
> I have to admit that we (at any rate, I) have never been taught this history in school. I didn't know we were a penal colony, though it makes a lot of sense.


History is full of interesting facts. We learnt that when the British Empire lost the American colonies they had a problem with where to send their convicts. They tried housing them on old barges in the Thames but that proved unsatisfactory. When Captain Cooke set out on his voyage to track the transit of Venus he had sealed orders, only to be opened after the Venus observation. The sealed orders were to proceed to the then unknown southern continent - Australia. The authorities back in England were looking for a place to send their convicts, and the great southern land was so far from England it was the perfect place. Western Australia was not established as a convict settlement. We were established in 1829 but the Amity sailed into Albany harbour in 1826. We started taking convicts in 1851. South Australia never took convicts at all. I remember reading somewhere that about 50,000 convicts were sent to the American colonies.

I had better add that not all our convicts were convicted murderers, pick pockets or common criminals. Many were political prisoners. The Irish, who were fighting for their independence from England, were sent to Australia. Many of these political prisoners were better educated than their English gaolers, and many of the Irish women ended up as governess to the English officers' children. Some people forget that it was Ireland who kept the learning alive during the so called dark ages. It was also Ireland who reintroduced Christianity into Europe at the end of the dark ages.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> Lake: You can disagree with me without insulting.


Said I thought the comment was ignorant, did not call you ignorant. Big difference


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Just a few facts
> 
> Not all Australian states were penal colonies.
> America was the destination for British convicts prior to the American war of independence
> ...


 :thumbup:


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Said I thought the comment was ignorant, did not call you ignorant. Big difference


While grammatically correct, the implication is that you are calling the person ignorant. It is a loaded word and you know it.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

I do stand corrected on the Tonkin Gulf and Viet Nam, It was a glitch but the point is very clear and very true then and now.

Given the reluctance of some people to take in the level of duplicity by so-called leaders I strongly suggest reading this following short essay by Jon Rappaport. Some of his stuff is a bit off for me, but generally he is on target.

√http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2014/09/06/exit-from-the-matrix-triumph-over-the-empire/


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> So remembering a documentary about Australia and how the country is becoming atheistic and almost godless, I am not surprised by some of the comments here.


The above statement is incorrect. Australia is definitely not becoming atheistic and almost godless. Here are statistics from the 2011 census, the latest census held.

In the 2011 Census, 
Christians represented 61% of the population. 
Non-Christians represented about 8% of the population. 
About 31% of the population stated they had no religion or did not state their religion. 
The 2011 Census recorded over 120 different religious denominations each with 250 or more followers. The religious composition of the States and Territories varies.
Major religions in Australia 2011

In Australia religion does not dominate our lives as it does in your country.

Sorry I just noticed a very bad typo on my part, which I have corrected. I missed out a word. I am old and my eyesight is not as good as it once was.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Yes history is very interesting especially when it reveals facts that are contradictory to the myths we are taught and that help explain how we really got to where we are today. After all, that is the real value of studying history. Thus, it is always critical to know who the writer really is, who trained them and who is paying for the projects.

For example, it became very clear to me one of then big problems with choices Obama made in his cabinet and agency heads. When in law school one of his major professors was a neo-con! I understood the pressures he was under as an African-Amercan in school which resulted in his learning to walk a tight rope in a white supremacist society. However, when looking at an admired mentor, that opened up a whole other level of understanding.

Hilary Clinton is another example as she was raised in a conservative GOP 'important' family. Her embracing liberal feminist politics in some ways does not eliminate her core beliefs and trusts from her background. She panders to religious right wing fundamentalists and is quite comfortable with them.

As a child in school history was an enigma to me as it made no sense. Memorizing dates and names and matching them on a test was all i recall and I never could do that. There was one female teacher who I thought was beautiful and I loved her. She appeared to be an independent thinker who presented history with all kinds of humous and personal type anecdotes. That was the first time the subject had any interest for me. It wasn't till years later, working politically and participating in study groups that it suddenly clicked that history was about who we are and how we got here. Of course when it is taught as a set of fractured data, disconnected to anything, and so based on ruling class white men and their repressive interests it is no wonder that so many kids have no connection to it. It really is the greatest way to confuse, disoriented and disempower an entire population. And the lies and lies by omission are stupendous. It is no wonder that so many people, as demonstrated here on KP, know so little of history and are resistant to hearing things that go against their belief systems.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> So remembering a documentary about Australia and how the country is becoming atheistic and almost godless, I am not surprised by some of the comments here.


The above statement is incorrect. Australia is definitely not becoming atheistic and almost godless. Your comments are just a nasty dig at my country and another nasty dig at a poster who comes from a different country to you.

Here are statistics from the 2011 census, the latest census held.

In the 2011 Census, 
Christians represented 61% of the population. 
Non-Christians represented about 8% of the population. 
About 31% of the population stated they had no religion or did not state their religion. 
The 2011 Census recorded over 120 different religious denominations each with 250 or more followers. The religious composition of the States and Territories varies.
Major religions in Australia 2011

In Australia religion does not dominate our lives as it does in your country.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> Said I thought the comment was ignorant, did not call you ignorant. Big difference


No difference since I typed the comment.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Yes history is very interesting especially when it reveals facts that are contradictory to the myths we are taught and that help explain how we really got to where we are today. After all, that is the real value of studying history. Thus, it is always critical to know who the writer really is, who trained them and who is paying for the projects.
> 
> For example, it became very clear to me one of then big problems with choices Obama made in his cabinet and agency heads. When in law school one of his major professors was a neo-con! I understood the pressures he was under as an African-American in school which resulted in his learning to walk a tight rope in a white supremacist society. However, when looking at an admired mentor, that opened up a whole other level of understanding.
> 
> ...


When I learnt history way, way back in the1940s and 1950s we did not just learn the cold facts from history but from other sources. We were encouraged to read personal histories, historical novels. We also learnt a lot of Shakespeare and learnt the background to his plays. That way we could see history in action, so to speak.

When I went to school public libraries were not in every suburb, in fact they were few and far between. We had libraries where you paid to join and paid every time you borrowed a book, and we had Public Service libraries available for the families of public servants as well as the Railway Institute, available free to railway workers and their families. The choice of books was not as wide as it is today. We did have the 'penny dreadfuls' as well as the Westerners but the mainstay of the library was the classical literature. We were encouraged to read the classics and read widely. The librarians at the public service library and the railway institute library to which I belonged were always there to guide my selection.

I have gained more knowledge from reading books than the straight history texts used in school. I remember being told when I was about 12 years old that the history that is taught in school is incomplete and it is not until you go to university and study history in depth that you can gain a real insight into the subject. After that I made every effort to gain more knowledge of history by reading wider on the subject.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Yes history is very interesting especially when it reveals facts that are contradictory to the myths we are taught and that help explain how we really got to where we are today. After all, that is the real value of studying history. Thus, it is always critical to know who the writer really is, who trained them and who is paying for the projects.
> 
> For example, it became very clear to me one of then big problems with choices Obama made in his cabinet and agency heads. When in law school one of his major professors was a neo-con! I understood the pressures he was under as an African-Amercan in school which resulted in his learning to walk a tight rope in a white supremacist society. However, when looking at an admired mentor, that opened up a whole other level of understanding.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Eve--it is true that you don't begin to get more of the real picture until you are out of public school. College, tho, is no guarantee you will get anything different but there are options not available in the required lower grades.

What needs to be remembered, or learned, is that education is a social institution for mass manipulation and control. It is more important that students learn to conform to a societal expectation that they will be required to fulfill when they get into the work force. The idea of education designed to encourage free thinking and creativity is part of the mythology. Schools are most concerned with controlling the population and tracking young people into the stations of life they will join later on--with minor exceptions, of course, to support the mythology.

Thus, grade school teaches what they call civics and imbeds the mythology of the 1% into the minds of the young, creating belief systems that are hard to break later in life despite all facts to the contrary. We see that clearly here in the conversations on KP. We also see how rabid people can get when their belief systems are challenges. Here is my oft repeated piece on this: Belief systems are not just about religions. There are many in our lives. It is the reason racism is so hard to deal with because you are telling/asking people to change their belief system about different groups of people for whom they have imbibed the mythology complete with poor expectations, fears, denigrating judgements, etc. 
While some belief systems are superficial and logic may pierce them, the bigger ones are so deeply ingrained that logic will never suffice. In social science this resistance has a name: Cognitive Dissonance. People will go to war if these belief systems feel challenged. Twisting the subject around, ad hominems and character assassinations, name calling, condescension, blatant hostility and actual violence can ensue. Just to name a few of the tactics people will resort to when their belief systems are questioned. Like kids sticking their fingers in their ears and making nasty noise to avoid hearing what they don't like, adults are actually doing the same thing.

All this to say that once the mythology has been absorbed as true, even when given choices later on in life, people don't take them or resist them. Thus, the lessons of history don't get learned. And that is why they don't get taught. Of course there are exception s and a range of intensity of this problem But the bottom line is people have little idea of how much of their thinking has been designed and controlled by others who have their own agenda for us. That is the focus of Jon Rappaport's writing about Exit the Matrix.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> The above statement is incorrect. Australia is definitely not becoming atheistic and almost godless. Your comments are just a nasty dig at my country and another nasty dig at a poster who comes from a different country to you.
> 
> Here are statistics from the 2011 census, the latest census held.
> 
> ...


Fascinating. I don't know how religion became the major industry in the US, or when it did. I don't remember it being so overwhelming when I was growing up, though I lived in a Catholic/Jewish ghetto (Italian and Irish, the Catholics, and Eastern European, the Jews, plus a smattering of black and Hispanic families). I think TV had a lot to do with the change, providing huge audiences for a preacher; TV has ruled this nation in many ways over the past 50 years, and not for our good.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> When I learnt history way, way back in the1940s and 1950s we did not just learn the cold facts from history but from other sources. We were encouraged to read personal histories, historical novels. We also learnt a lot of Shakespeare and learnt the background to his plays. That way we could see history in action, so to speak.
> 
> When I went to school public libraries were not in every suburb, in fact they were few and far between. We had libraries where you paid to join and paid every time you borrowed a book, and we had Public Service libraries available for the families of public servants as well as the Railway Institute, available free to railway workers and their families. The choice of books was not as wide as it is today. We did have the 'penny dreadfuls' as well as the Westerners but the mainstay of the library was the classical literature. We were encouraged to read the classics and read widely. The librarians at the public service library and the railway institute library to which I belonged were always there to guide my selection.
> 
> I have gained more knowledge from reading books than the straight history texts used in school. I remember being told when I was about 12 years old that the history that is taught in school is incomplete and it is not until you go to university and study history in depth that you can gain a real insight into the subject. After that I made every effort to gain more knowledge of history by reading wider on the subject.


I wish I had had teachers who encouraged wider reading. History, in my mind, was a waste of time because somehow it didn't hold together. It only allowed for short-answer quizzes rather than essays. It wasn't until college that I began learning history (British history, mostly) through being an English major. Everything we read was put into historical context, and it suddenly made sense.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Eve--it is true that you don't begin to get more of the real picture until you are out of public school. College, tho, is no guarantee you will get anything different but there are options not available in the required lower grades.
> 
> What needs to be remembered, or learned, is that education is a social institution for mass manipulation and control. It is more important that students learn to conform to a societal expectation that they will be required to fulfill when they get into the work force. The idea of education designed to encourage free thinking and creativity is part of the mythology. Schools are most concerned with controlling the population and tracking young people into the stations of life they will join later on--with minor exceptions, of course, to support the mythology.
> 
> ...


Tamarque, I can't agree entirely, especially with your first two paragraphs, though since I attended college in the sixties, things may have changed drastically since then. But a lot of what you say strikes me as true. In fact, it gives me a chance to post something from last week's NYTimes that I found to be very relevant. In my next post.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

*When Whites Just Dont Get It
After Ferguson, Race Deserves More Attention, Not Less*
AUG. 30, 2014

Nicholas Kristof

MANY white Americans say they are fed up with the coverage of the shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo. A plurality of whites in a recent Pew survey said that the issue of race is getting more attention than it deserves.

Bill OReilly of Fox News reflected that weariness, saying: All you hear is grievance, grievance, grievance, money, money, money.

Indeed, a 2011 study by scholars at Harvard and Tufts found that whites, on average, believed that anti-white racism was a bigger problem than anti-black racism.

Yes, you read that right!

So let me push back at what I see as smug white delusion. Here are a few reasons race relations deserve more attention, not less:

 The net worth of the average black household in the United States is $6,314, compared with $110,500 for the average white household, according to 2011 census data. The gap has worsened in the last decade, and the United States now has a greater wealth gap by race than South Africa did during apartheid. (Whites in America on average own almost 18 times as much as blacks; in South Africa in 1970, the ratio was about 15 times.)

 The black-white income gap is roughly 40 percent greater today than it was in 1967.

 A black boy born today in the United States has a life expectancy five years shorter than that of a white boy.

 Black students are significantly less likely to attend schools offering advanced math and science courses than white students. They are three times as likely to be suspended and expelled, setting them up for educational failure.

 Because of the catastrophic experiment in mass incarceration, black men in their 20s without a high school diploma are more likely to be incarcerated today than employed, according to a study from the National Bureau of Economic Research. Nearly 70 percent of middle-aged black men who never graduated from high school have been imprisoned.

All these constitute not a black problem or a white problem, but an American problem. When so much talent is underemployed and overincarcerated, the entire country suffers.

Some straight people have gradually changed their attitudes toward gays after realizing that their friends  or children  were gay. Researchers have found that male judges are more sympathetic to womens rights when they have daughters. Yet because of the de facto segregation of America, whites are unlikely to have many black friends: A study from the Public Religion Research Institute suggests that in a network of 100 friends, a white person, on average, has one black friend.

Thats unfortunate, because friends open our eyes. I was shaken after a well-known black woman told me about looking out her front window and seeing that police officers had her teenage son down on the ground after he had stepped out of their upscale house because they thought he was a prowler. Thank God he didnt run, she said.

One black friend tells me that he freaked out when his white fiancée purchased an item in a store and promptly threw the receipt away. What are you doing? he protested to her. He is a highly successful and well-educated professional but would never dream of tossing a receipt for fear of being accused of shoplifting.

Some readers will protest that the stereotype is rooted in reality: Young black men are disproportionately likely to be criminals.

Thats true  and complicated. Theres nothing more painful to me, the Rev. Jesse Jackson once said, than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery  then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.

All this should be part of the national conversation on race, as well, and prompt a drive to help young black men end up in jobs and stable families rather than in crime or jail. We have policies with a robust record of creating opportunity: home visitation programs like Nurse-Family Partnership; early education initiatives like Educare and Head Start; programs for troubled adolescents like Youth Villages; anti-gang and anti-crime initiatives like Becoming a Man; efforts to prevent teen pregnancies like the Carrera curriculum; job training like Career Academies; and job incentives like the earned-income tax credit.

The best escalator to opportunity may be education, but that escalator is broken for black boys growing up in neighborhoods with broken schools. We fail those boys before they fail us.

So a starting point is for those of us in white America to wipe away any self-satisfaction about racial progress. Yes, the progress is real, but so are the challenges. The gaps demand a wrenching, soul-searching excavation of our national soul, and the first step is to acknowledge that the central race challenge in America today is not the suffering of whites.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/31/opinion/sunday/nicholas-kristof-after-ferguson-race-deserves-more-attention-not-less.html?_r=0


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> ::: edited to focus on the one point I want to respond to::: This forum was a worldwide coverage, it is read by people outside of the USA. Not all people of the world follow the same religions and fervour of the USA. All we are asking is that some posters tone down their constant bible quotes as it is seen as thrusting their religion in the faces of others. Not only the bible quotes but the constant sanctimonious statements that you are praying for us, we will burn in hell, that you are praying that we will follow your chosen religious path, the list could go on. Question: What would your reaction be if someone posted the words Allah Akbar at the end of every one of their posts? Boy oh boy would you rant and rave. Well, you are doing the Christian equivalent of this.


HOW DARE YOU!

Your pseudo-sanctimonious outrage is misplaced, misdirected, and misappropriated!

Are you aware of the fact that more Christians were crucified last week
Yes I said CRUCIFIED LAST WEEK than at any other time in recorded history?

And instead of you rising up against such atrocities
You choose instead to censor Christians, to muzzle Christians!

Instead of respecting the beliefs of your sisters though they be different than your own
You would impose your own version of Shariah law on us!

Instead of welcoming the earnest prayers and good will of believers
You choose to make this Godless society even more Godless.

You choose to do the work of the enemy!

Yes, I am a fool for Jesus,
But whose fool are you!?

_Things are heating up in the world allright, but let's all get bent out of shape over how many AMENS you're forced to read on a knitting forum! RIGHT ON SISTAH!!!_


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> HOW DARE YOU!
> 
> Your pseudo-sanctimonious outrage is misplaced, misdirected, and misappropriated!
> 
> ...


Calm down.

I respect your faith, I really do and you're not one to use it as part of a non religious conversation but others do and it does get annoying.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Calm down.
> 
> I respect your faith, I really do and you're not one to use it as part of a non religious conversation but others do and it does get annoying.


I'm very calm, Womby.

On the one hand the fact that more Christians were CRUCIFIED last week than at any other time in recorded history,

And on the other hand the sensitivities of fellow knitters annoyed at Christians for being public with their faith.

No contest!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> HOW DARE YOU!
> 
> Your pseudo-sanctimonious outrage is misplaced, misdirected, and misappropriated!
> 
> ...


Overly dramatic, n'est-ce pas?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I didn't learn to love history until I started to read what I wanted. Text books never brought history to life.



Poor Purl said:


> I wish I had had teachers who encouraged wider reading. History, in my mind, was a waste of time because somehow it didn't hold together. It only allowed for short-answer quizzes rather than essays. It wasn't until college that I began learning history (British history, mostly) through being an English major. Everything we read was put into historical context, and it suddenly made sense.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Fascinating article Purl. Thanks for posting.



Poor Purl said:


> *When Whites Just Dont Get It
> After Ferguson, Race Deserves More Attention, Not Less*
> AUG. 30, 2014
> 
> ...


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> HOW DARE YOU!
> 
> Your pseudo-sanctimonious outrage is misplaced, misdirected, and misappropriated!
> 
> ...


AMEN and AMEN and AMEN and AMEN and AMEN and AMEN!
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Fascinating article Purl. Thanks for posting.


There's a follow-up this week, about the comments made. Also fascinating. In fact:

*When Whites Just Dont Get It, Part 2*
SEPT. 6, 2014

Nicholas Kristof

IN my column a week ago, When Whites Just Dont Get It, I took aim at what I called smug white delusion about race relations in America, and readers promptly fired back at what they perceived as a smugly deluded columnist.

Readers grudgingly accepted the grim statistics I cited  such as the wealth disparity between blacks and whites in America today exceeding what it was in South Africa during apartheid  but many readers put the blame on African-Americans themselves.

Probably has something to do with their unwillingness to work, Nils tweeted.

Nancy protested on my Facebook page: We cant fix their problems. Its up to every black individual to stop the cycle of fatherless homes, stop the cycle of generations on welfare.

There was a deluge of such comments, some toxic, but let me try to address three principal arguments that I think prop up white delusion.

*First, if blacks are poor or in prison, its all their fault. Blacks dont get it, Bruce tweeted. Choosing to be cool vs. getting good grades is a bad choice. We all start from 0.*

Huh? Does anybody really think that we all take off from the same starting line?

Slavery and post-slavery oppression left a legacy of broken families, poverty, racism, hopelessness and internalized self-doubt. Some responded to discrimination and lack of opportunity by behaving in self-destructive ways.

One study found that African-American children on welfare heard only 29 percent as many words in their first few years as children of professional parents. Those kids never catch up, partly because theyre more likely to attend broken schools. Sure, some make bad choices, but theyve often been on a trajectory toward failure from the time they were babies.

These are whirlpools that are difficult to escape, especially when society is suspicious and unsympathetic. Japan has a stigmatized minority group, the burakumin, whose members once held jobs considered unclean. But although this is an occupational minority rather than a racial one, it spawned an underclass that was tormented by crime, educational failure, and substance abuse similar to that of the American underclass.

So instead of pointing fingers, lets adopt some of the programs that Ive cited with robust evidence showing that they bridge the chasm.

*But look at Asians, Mark protests on my Google Plus page: Vietnamese arrived in poverty  and are now school valedictorians. Why cant blacks be like that?*

There are plenty of black valedictorians. But bravo to Asians and other immigrant groups for thriving in America with a strong cultural emphasis on education, diligence and delay of self-gratification. We should support programs with a good record of inculcating such values in disadvantaged children. But we also need to understand that many young people of color see no hope of getting ahead, and that despair can be self-fulfilling.

A successful person can say: I worked hard in school. I got a job. The system worked. Good for you. But you probably also owe your success to parents who read to you, to decent schools, to social expectations that you would end up in college rather than prison. So count your blessings for winning the lottery of birth  and think about mentoring a kid who didnt.

*Look, the basic reason young black men are regarded with suspicion is that theyre disproportionately criminals. The root problem isnt racism. Its criminality.*

Its true that blacks accounted for 55 percent of robbery arrests in 2012, according to F.B.I. statistics. But, by my calculations, its also true that 99.9 percent of blacks were not arrested and charged with robbery in 2012, yet they are still tarred by this pernicious stereotype.

Criminality is real. So is inequity. So is stereotyping.

The United States Sentencing Commission concluded that black men get sentences one-fifth longer than white men for committing the same crimes. In Louisiana, a study found that a person is 97 percent more likely to be sentenced to death for murdering a white person than a black person.

Mass incarceration means that the United States imprisons a higher proportion of its black population than apartheid South Africa did, further breaking up families. And careful studies find that employers are less likely to respond to a job inquiry and résumé when a typically black name is on it.

Society creates opportunity and resiliency for middle-class white boys who make mistakes; it is unforgiving of low-income black boys.

Of course, we need to promote personal responsibility. But there is plenty of fault to go around, and too many whites are obsessed with cultivating personal responsibility in the black community while refusing to accept any responsibility themselves for a system that manifestly does not provide equal opportunity.

Yes, young black men need to take personal responsibility. And so does white America.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/opinion/sunday/nicholas-kristof-when-whites-just-dont-get-it-part-2.html?ref=opinion


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Overly dramatic, n'est-ce pas?


Really Purl?



Poor Purl said:


> I agree. She (now, here's a wombat whose sex is known  ) looks so relaxed and cheerful, leaning back like that. And what a nice piece of knitting she's on.
> 
> I'm sure they did it to annoy you, but living well is the best revenge. Weren't you a nurse? You've seen girl-baby's genitals before. She's cute and tiny, *unlike the beasts making fun of her.*


You know, ever since I read that post of yours I couldn't get it out of my mind. I thought it very odd coming from you as I associate that word with "The Beast of Belsen" and "The Beast of Buchenwald" and how often we've read of Naziis referring to Jews as less than beasts.

I didn't know whether to confront you publically or privately and in time I decided to just it go. But something about the way you just choose to ignore the substance of my post and only focus on what you think of as the tone of my post changed my mind. You might consider your own dramatic license next time to refer to us on D&P as beasts!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> I'm very calm, Womby.
> 
> On the one hand the fact that more Christians were CRUCIFIED last week than at any other time in recorded history,
> 
> ...


The crucifixion of Christians and non-Christian people is happening daily in many parts of the world every day and yes it's expanding, especially now just as it did with Jewish people during the second world war. It's horrific and unconscionable. But the context of what Eve wrote has nothing to do with that. It's like when she posted a funny joke about a wombat which happened to coincide with another awful incident.

There is no intentional insensitivity here.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> The crucifixion of Christians and non-Christian people is happening daily in many parts of the world every day and yes it's expanding, especially now just as it did with Jewish people during the second world war. It's horrific and unconscionable. But the context of what Eve wrote has nothing to do with that. It's like when she posted a funny joke about a wombat which happened to coincide with another awful incident.
> 
> There is no intentional insensitivity here.


There is _this week_!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> There is _this week_!


What do you mean?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> You know, ever since I read that post of yours I couldn't get it out of my mind. I thought it very odd coming from you as I associate that word with "The Beast of Belsen" and "The Beast of Buchenwald" and how often we've read of Naziis referring to Jews as less than beasts.
> 
> I didn't know whether to confront you publically or privately and in time I decided to just it go. But something about the way you just choose to ignore the substance of my post and only focus on what you think of as the tone of my post changed my mind. You might consider your own dramatic license next time to refer to us on D&P as beasts!


Your associations to the word "beasts" are different from mine, maybe because mine are in Yiddish. But I used the word because it was a baby beast who was the subject of the message. I don't think all of you are beasts - far from it - but I do think those who chose to annoy the Wombat and thought it was funny are - well, does animals sound better?

You were right about my dismissing the subject of your post. I shouldn't have. Here are more beasts doing untold damage, and apparently you feel it especially strongly because it happened to your co-religionists. But to say "How dare you" to Eve in that context just sounded over the top. I'm afraid it was the drama that allowed me to ignore the content. I apologize for that.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Fascinating. I don't know how religion became the major industry in the US, or when it did. I don't remember it being so overwhelming when I was growing up, though I lived in a Catholic/Jewish ghetto (Italian and Irish, the Catholics, and Eastern European, the Jews, plus a smattering of black and Hispanic families). I think TV had a lot to do with the change, providing huge audiences for a preacher; TV has ruled this nation in many ways over the past 50 years, and not for our good.


I would not say you lived in a ghetto, I would say that you were indeed lucky to live in such a diverse neighbourhood.

I grew up during the post war immigration era, displaced people from all over Europe coming to settle in Australia and calling it home. I went to school with many immigrant children who did not speak a word of English when they first arrived. Some of them sufferred terribly under Hitler, they had sad tales to tell. When I was 10 years old I had one particular friend who lived next door for a while. He, his mother and father kept to themselves, avoided other people. Mum told me to go and play with him. Until then I did not know that people actually lived in the house. The family had spent years in hiding from the Nazis and the fear was still there. Yes they were Jewish. My father was also employed as a cook at the migrant hostel near our home at one stage. He would often bring the migrants home to meet his family and we were encouraged to talk to them, and we learnt a lot from them. It was a male migrant camp as the male migrants were brought out without the women in many cases. We needed the labour more than the families.

When I started work at 16 years of age I worked with many men who had fought in world war 1, including a Victoria Cross winner, plus men who fought in world war 11, some fought in both wars. They continued my education, as well as the education of the other teenager who worked in the same office. They talked about their experiences, they told me what books to read.

I believe it is by mixing with people from different backgrounds and listening to their stories that we gain a greater understanding of history.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I would not say you lived in a ghetto, I would say that you were indeed lucky to live in such a diverse neighbourhood.
> 
> I grew up during the post war immigration era, displaced people from all over Europe coming to settle in Australia and calling it home. I went to school with many immigrant children who did not speak a word of English when they first arrived. Some of them sufferred terribly under Hitler, they had sad tales to tell. When I was 10 years old I had one particular friend who lived next door for a while. He, his mother and father kept to themselves, avoided other people. Mum told me to go and play with him. Until then I did not know that people actually lived in the house. The family had spent years in hiding from the Nazis and the fear was still there. Yes they were Jewish. My father was also employed as a cook at the migrant hostel near our home at one stage. He would often bring the migrants home to meet his family and we were encouraged to talk to them, and we learnt a lot from them. It was a male migrant camp as the male migrants were brought out without the women in many cases. We needed the labour more than the families.
> 
> ...


(It really was a ghetto. There was only one Protestant family, only one black family with children, and at 5 I met my first Hispanic, whom I thought beautiful because she wore earrings, and nobody else did. Everyone else was either Abramowitz or Angelastro.)

Your mother was wonderful to send you to play with the boy next door. You may have learned from him, but he sorely needed to learn about his new home, and that came from knowing you.

Hearing people's stories is the best way to learn about the world, even your own part of it. That's so even if their stories are part imaginary.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> The crucifixion of Christians and non-Christian people is happening daily in many parts of the world every day and yes it's expanding, especially now just as it did with Jewish people during the second world war. It's horrific and unconscionable. But the context of what Eve wrote has nothing to do with that. It's like when she posted a funny joke about a wombat which happened to coincide with another awful incident.
> 
> There is no intentional insensitivity here.


You are such a hypocrite. The very week a SECOND American was beheaded, on an AMERICAN website about knitting, Eve (aka Martha) posted a beheaded wombat.

You think there was nothing of intentional insensitivity with Eve's post?

It was disgusting, abhorrent and crass. Others recognized it immediately because Eve didn't have the common sense nor decency to not post it and in a brief moment of clarity, removed the offensive image.

Thousands of Christians are being crucified and murdered daily, and you and she thought this the appropriate time for that disgusting attempt at humor and then you both rant on and on that neither of you wish to hear from Christians.

Well, you're gonna, so get used to it.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You are such a hypocrite. The very week a SECOND American was beheaded, on an AMERICAN website about knitting, Eve (aka Martha) posted a beheaded wombat.
> 
> You think there was nothing of intentional insensitivity with Eve's post?
> 
> It was disgusting, abhorrent and crass. Others recognized it immediately because Eve didn't have the common sense nor decency to not post it and in a brief moment of clarity, removed the offensive image.


KPG I ask you one question. Is it your intention to drive me off KP? Do you wish me not to post here any more? Because it seems to me that you do. I know you do not like me because I am not a Christian. Believe me, my post was not intended to cause such an uproar. It was a joke that I published, then removed. To be honest I really do not think that you actually saw the original post. It was not disgusting, abhorrent and crass. But some of your remarks that you have made on KP are disgusting and crass. I apologised and removed the post, so why are you still raking over the coals? Am I your latest victim, am I the latest person you are choosing to pour your acid comments over? I have no doubt that you have screamed to certain parties to have me banned from KP, perhaps that is your agenda. Ban everyone who does not toe your line.

I see you have updated your post since I started to reply to you. You added the lines "Thousands of Christians are being crucified and murdered daily, and you and she thought this the appropriate time for that disgusting attempt at humor and then you both rant on and on that neither of you wish to hear from Christians.

Well, you're gonna, so get used to it."

Your last line is just typical of your rantings. Remember, don't dish it out if you do not expect to have it thrown right back in your face. BTW I did not post a beheaded wombat, I posted an article from the newspaper and I posted it as a joke to Wombat. I repeat,at the time I posted it I was totally unaware of the second beheading. There was no picture of a beheaded wombat, which is what you are implying I posted.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You are such a hypocrite. The very week a SECOND American was beheaded, on an AMERICAN website about knitting, Eve (aka Martha) posted a beheaded wombat.
> 
> You think there was nothing of intentional insensitivity with Eve's post?
> 
> ...


As usual, you're missing the point, just don't get it and may I say you are particularly nasty today. Missing something are we? Not getting our needs met? And today of all days, the day of rest! Dear oh, dear!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> KPG I ask you one question. Is it your intention to drive me off KP? Do you wish me not to post here any more? Because it seems to me that you do. I know you do not like me because I am not a Christian. Believe me, my post was not intended to cause such an uproar. It was a joke that I published, then removed. To be honest I really do not think that you actually saw the original post. It was not disgusting, abhorrent and crass. But some of your remarks that you have made on KP are disgusting and crass. I apologised and removed the post, so why are you still raking over the coals? Am I your latest victim, am I the latest person you are choosing to pour your acid comments over? I have no doubt that you have screamed to certain parties to have me banned from KP, perhaps that is your agenda. Ban everyone who does not toe your line.
> 
> I see you have updated your post since I started to reply to you. You added the lines "Thousands of Christians are being crucified and murdered daily, and you and she thought this the appropriate time for that disgusting attempt at humor and then you both rant on and on that neither of you wish to hear from Christians.
> 
> ...


You're dealing with the foremost authority on disgusting and crass. I hope you're in fighting shape.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> KPG I ask you one question. Is it your intention to drive me off KP? Do you wish me not to post here any more? Because it seems to me that you do. I know you do not like me because I am not a Christian. Believe me, my post was not intended to cause such an uproar. It was a joke that I published, then removed. To be honest I really do not think that you actually saw the original post. It was not disgusting, abhorrent and crass. But some of your remarks that you have made on KP are disgusting and crass. I apologised and removed the post, so why are you still raking over the coals? Am I your latest victim, am I the latest person you are choosing to pour your acid comments over? I have no doubt that you have screamed to certain parties to have me banned from KP, perhaps that is your agenda. Ban everyone who does not toe your line.
> 
> I see you have updated your post since I started to reply to you. You added the lines "Thousands of Christians are being crucified and murdered daily, and you and she thought this the appropriate time for that disgusting attempt at humor and then you both rant on and on that neither of you wish to hear from Christians.
> 
> ...


Eve,

You've been more gracious in your reply than was necessary. In future, don't waste your time. Better things to type about.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> As usual, you're missing the point, just don't get it and may I say you are particularly nasty today. Missing something are we? Not getting our needs met? And today of all days, the day of rest! Dear oh, dear!


As usual, you cannot see the forest through the trees.
I thought we are not to speak about Christianity?
Every single one of my needs is met, I understand that is not the case of you. I am extremely blessed. Guess why? Want me to tell you about it?

Oh, I'm rested, aren't you?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> As usual, you cannot see the forest through the trees.
> I thought we are not to speak about Christianity?
> Every single one of my needs is met. I am extremely blessed. Guess why?
> 
> Oh, I'm rested, aren't you?


I'm rested and calm. Not good that you can't say the same.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You're dealing with the foremost authority on disgusting and crass. I hope you're in fighting shape.


At the moment I am not feeling too bright. My son just had a bit of an autistic meltdown, I will not go into details. But I am feeling extremely cold and headachey. KPG really got to me. I did apologise for posting the joke but I honestly believe she did not see the original post but jumped on the bandwagon to put her boots in. So, she may succeed and complain and have me thrown off the site, who knows.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I'm rested and calm. Not good that you can't say the same.


I'm not the one who goes off on others for no reason, who doesn't have work, meaningful relationships, community with others, and first and foremost, God. That would be you.

No matter what you throw at me, I am His and He is Mine.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> At the moment I am not feeling too bright. My son just had a bit of an autistic meltdown, I will not go into details. But I am feeling extremely cold and headachey. KPG really got to me. I did apologise for posting the joke but I honestly believe she did not see the original post but jumped on the bandwagon to put her boots in. So, she may succeed and complain and have me thrown off the site, who knows.


You have done absolutely nothing wrong. It's simply a clash of perspectives. Nothing to be done or complained about - Admin would not react.

Hope your son is okay and you take care and be kind to yourself.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm not the one who goes off on others for no reason, who doesn't have work, meaningful relationships, community with others, and first and foremost, God. That would be you.
> 
> No matter what you throw at me, I am His and He is Mine.


And you would know this about me how? You're skating on very thin ice putting your assumptions about me in the public domain.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> At the moment I am not feeling too bright. My son just had a bit of an autistic meltdown, I will not go into details. But I am feeling extremely cold and headachey. KPG really got to me. I did apologise for posting the joke but I honestly believe she did not see the original post but jumped on the bandwagon to put her boots in. So, she may succeed and complain and have me thrown off the site, who knows.


I'm sorry I missed the joke. I'm also sorry about all your ills today. The last thing you need to worry about is what KPG has to say about you. It's always the same, only about different posts. Why are you awake now, anyway? Isn't it 3 in the morning, your time?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> And you would know this about me how? You're skating on very thin ice putting your assumptions about me in the public domain.


By reading your public posts, silly. If you don't like what you post publicly, don't look to blame others. I haven't assumed a thing.

Threats to me won't do you any good either.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm not the one who goes off on others for no reason, who doesn't have work, meaningful relationships, community with others, and first and foremost, God. That would be you.
> 
> No matter what you throw at me, I am His and He is Mine.


I'm obviously getting to you because your attitude is degenerating by the minute. Keep it up toots, no matter what.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> By reading your public posts, silly. If you don't like what you post publicly, don't look to blame others. I haven't assumed a thing.
> 
> Threats to me won't do you any good either.


It wasn't a threat, it was a caution and rightly so.

Well you go gather up my posts that say what you've charged. Prove it.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I'm obviously getting to you because your attitude is degenerating by the minute. Keep it up toots, no matter what.


You never get to me. I told you, no matter what you throw at me, it doesn't stick. I'm loved and have God.

I like the nickname Toots though. :thumbup:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> It wasn't a threat, it was a caution and rightly so.
> 
> Well you go gather up my posts that say what you've charged. Prove it.


I don't work for you though. You can do it if you wish.

This conversation is boring, time for you to be in bed anyhow.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I don't work for you though. You can do it if you wish.
> 
> This conversation is boring, time for you to be in bed anyhow.


You won't gather the evidence of your claims because there is none.

You do this time and time again. You started this so don't try to make out that your the victim.

I have gotten to you otherwise you wouldn't be wanting this exchange to end. I win.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm sorry I missed the joke. I'm also sorry about all your ills today. The last thing you need to worry about is what KPG has to say about you. It's always the same, only about different posts. Why are you awake now, anyway? Isn't it 3 in the morning, your time?


Yes, it is 4.07 am Monday here. No good going to bed at the moment, I will not sleep. Still a little shaky, thank goodness my son's autistic meltdown was not a major one. It upsets and frightens me when I see him hitting himself in the head like that. I become more than edgy and perhaps more than tetchy with other people as a result. I may take a couple of paracetamol, that may make me sleep. They are the strongest tablets I have in the house.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes, it is 4.07 am Monday here. No good going to bed at the moment, I will not sleep. Still a little shaky, thank goodness my son's autistic meltdown was not a major one. It upsets and frightens me when I see him hitting himself in the head like that. I become more than edgy and perhaps more than tetchy with other people as a result. I may take a couple of paracetamol, that may make me sleep. They are the strongest tablets I have in the house.


Wouldn't some music be more relaxing that duking it out on KP?

Your son seems high-functioning enough that it must be a shock when he has what you call a meltdown. I can't imagine any parent feeling cheery after seeing their child hit himself in the head. Though there are times when I want to do that , too.

However you get over the feeling, let it happen soon. Unless boxing with KPG is a distraction, in which case, be my guest.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> At the moment I am not feeling too bright. My son just had a bit of an autistic meltdown, I will not go into details. But I am feeling extremely cold and headachey. KPG really got to me. I did apologise for posting the joke but I honestly believe she did not see the original post but jumped on the bandwagon to put her boots in. So, she may succeed and complain and have me thrown off the site, who knows.


Don't worry. You will not be tossed. We will watch out for you. Sorry about you son. Try to relax.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Your associations to the word "beasts" are different from mine, maybe because mine are in Yiddish. But I used the word because it was a baby beast who was the subject of the message. I don't think all of you are beasts - far from it - but I do think those who chose to annoy the Wombat and thought it was funny are - well, does animals sound better?
> 
> You were right about my dismissing the subject of your post. I shouldn't have. Here are more beasts doing untold damage, and apparently you feel it especially strongly because it happened to your co-religionists. But to say "How dare you" to Eve in that context just sounded over the top. I'm afraid it was the drama that allowed me to ignore the content. I apologize for that.


To put my comment in the proper context I had just come home from church where the crucifixion and beheadings of Christians, adults and children, were part of the sermon. To come upon Eve's post about how annoying it is for her to have to read Christian prayers and beliefs and she'd prefer that we just shut up proved to me that the enemy is active in large as well as small ways. Some people might benefit from knowing that they're being used as a tool...and by whom!

No, the word animal is not better.

I accept your apology.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Eve,
> 
> You've been more gracious in your reply than was necessary. In future, don't waste your time. Better things to type about.


Eve was less than gracious in her reply to me because there was none!


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> You won't gather the evidence of your claims because there is none.
> 
> You do this time and time again. You started this so don't try to make out that your the victim.
> 
> I have gotten to you otherwise you wouldn't be wanting this exchange to end. I win.


Uh, huh. I started nothing. You brought up Eve's post about the decapitated Wombat 'joke,' not me. I never mentioned it until you did to me. You do THAT all the time, insult me and try to talk to me when you publicly have said you wouldn't.

You really should figure out what you want. I didn't claim I'm a victim, I'm not. YOU said that too.

You didn't win anything. I haven't wanted to converse with you since you went off the deep end, telling others and me that you were being ignored on the Denim thread. Remember? Then you insulted me again and again and again, and I wasn't even posting! You attacked and insulted and I hadn't said a word.

Then when I returned from a vacation, there you were still insulting and attacking everyone who befriended you and offered you friendship on that thread. The core posters stopped talking to you because that is what you inspired.

You really are a weird one. Now you're hanging with the very people who attacked you viciously for months looking for acceptance I guess. So be it, your choice. You lost the friends on Denim that welcomed and supported you because of your recent ugly antics. Live with it. From my view, I'd said, you lost.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes, it is 4.07 am Monday here. No good going to bed at the moment, I will not sleep. Still a little shaky, thank goodness my son's autistic meltdown was not a major one. It upsets and frightens me when I see him hitting himself in the head like that. I become more than edgy and perhaps more than tetchy with other people as a result. I may take a couple of paracetamol, that may make me sleep. They are the strongest tablets I have in the house.


Eve - you have friends here and we care about you. The average person would say, "sorry you have had such a bad time -- I hope things get better - There are a lot of us who care about you. I hope that your post is accepted and it is understood.

Anyway, try to get some rest and know that we are thinking of you. I have a friend who has an autistic son and it is sooo difficult. He is very very ill with it and is now l8 and they don't know what they are going to be able to do. It is getting very hard. So, take deep breaths and know that I would go to help you if I could.

====
We flew back home last night - and you would have loved the flight over the Canadian Rockies. they were sharp and clear with some snow on the peaks. Usually we are high enough that we don't see them flying in to Alberta from BC but yesterday they were perfect. We had lunch at Genoa Bay on the island with our son and family, and fresh halibut fish and chips. I can't be sure where you are - if you are on the coast you will know how 'fun' the little fishing villages are with the yachts and sail boats and fishing boats. Coming from the Rockies (interior) we love to go to the sea. You would have felt calm flying over miles and miles of Rocky Mountain peaks and suddenly you are flying over the foothills and over the ranches and farms.

I hope the picture will help you relax. Please take care and try to catch your breath. My thoughts are with you and will continue to be. Don't be concerned about what is said here.

You are a friend and I admire you. This card is especially for you. Take care friend. Designer


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> To put my comment in the proper context I had just come home from church where the crucifixion and beheadings of Christians, adults and children, were part of the sermon. To come upon Eve's post about how annoying it is for her to have to read Christian prayers and beliefs and she'd prefer that we just shut up proved to me that the enemy is active in large as well as small ways. Some people might benefit from knowing that they're being used as a tool...and by whom!
> 
> No, the word animal is not better.
> 
> I accept your apology.


===================
Insult first, then accept her apology. She is hurting, a kind word could be in order -- I see KPG is ignoring her answer. When you are hurting it is easy to jump and fight back.

Gerslay -- it is hard to read how much Christian beliefs mean to you when two or three of you - spew nastiness constantly, never a kind word, absolute hate. I am not saying that about you. I don't know you, but it would have been nice to say - I am sorry you are having such a dreadful night - forget about what you said,- I will." 'I hope you feel better and I hope your son improves' --Maybe she might feel comforted. Would that be such a terrible thing for one or two of you to do? She apologized- wouldn't a word of comfort be a Christian reaction>

I tried it the other way around and was ignored, by all, and attacked by a few. My meaning was questioned, ( I was told to say away from D and P and that they knew I was trying to cause trouble)and so I will never post that I am sorry if a family member dies, or if someone is ill on your D and P again because it is twisted and not believed. I think that is sad.

Politics are one thing, kindness and human friendship is another. My heart aches for Eve, just as it ached for Yarnie, and others who have been sick like Janeway, it has nothing to do with politics. It is to do with human beings being affected when others are hurting. The arguments and unkindness could take a break for the time it takes to let someone know you hurt for them without being attacked because you have a difference in outlook, or Political preference. The world is made up of millions of people, some are Christians like you and I -- some are not. But we are people who can hurt..

It still hurts me that my posts were ignored and I received nasty pm's and was accused of having and agenda and trying to cause problems.

I know Eve. She is hurting. She explained what she was going through when she posted. Doesn't that make a bit of a difference?

I have lost An adult son, a baby daughter, (sids),had 3 miscarriages, have a sister with alzheimers, and have nearly lost my husband 3 times with serious heart problems also my parents. My son was a troubled person who died at 53 after a life of breaking our hearts.

Do you think that someone's Political opinion or lack of my beliefs stops me from hurting for someone who is going through the same thing or or what I know a person is going through when someone loses a loved one? I have been there and I hurt for them. Why is my caring for that person ridiculed and ignored? Because I am a liberal?

Janeway has not been well, I feel badly for her. She seems to understand that - We were practically enemies. but that was Political opinions. Not when one of us is sick, or hurt.

Off my soap box. It just makes me want to cry. sorry. My sister phoned me 25 times over 3 days wishing me a happy birthday and had no recollection of calling before. I am losing her day by day and can't do a thing about it.

I feel for Eve and her son. I feel, for those who are going through bad things. Can't differences in Politics and religion or lack of it take a pass for a few minutes and kindness and caring take its place? I don't care what 'side' you are on or what side I am on.

Sorry - please- I am too upset about my sister Marjorie just called me and asked me who I was as she saw my number on the list beside her chair -she is 74 years old and was a strong, wonderful woman and who now doesn't know her own son's name some times.

So if LTL or KGP or solo or any of you want to attack go ahead. I know that people like CB and Bonnie won't. But I also know that if I post on D and P and say I am sorry because one of you is suffering I will be ignored. Because I am a liberal and have joined into these conversations.

There are some of us who are hurting -- Eve is one of them.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You are such a hypocrite. The very week a SECOND American was beheaded, on an AMERICAN website about knitting, Eve (aka Martha) posted a beheaded wombat.
> 
> You think there was nothing of intentional insensitivity with Eve's post?
> 
> ...


===
KGP
Thousands of PEOPLE are being murdered daily. Not just us christians -- so Eve and I and others on these threads want them murdered???????

Read my post on the next page. I just hope that if and when you have something dreadful going on in your life and you let people know, that you receive kindness instead of insults. even if it is one line. I have never seen a kind line written by you when you are talking to one of us. I know you treat your friends well, but you are not a kind, loving person in any way. You hurt and you attack, and you never say anything kind if they dare disagree with you.

You believe you are given the right to hurt, to insult, to question, to treat people like they are dirt. YOu wonder why you are not treated well here. Show us ONE post where you were kind to anyone, Show us one post where you said , yes, I understand but I don't agree.

I am having a really bad day too, so is Eve so enjoy yourself and post some of your nastiness. " She explained that she was hurting and scared and worried when she posted. I see nothing from you saying -- I am sorry you are hurting, lets let your statement go." I am in tears here so you should be happy-- two of us are hurting --


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> You are having a bad day! What about the Christians that are being murdered every day. They would be glad just to have another day, bad or otherwise.


Amen.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> You are having a bad day! What about the Christians that are being murdered every day. They would be glad just to have another day, bad or otherwise.


Joey- do you really think I don't care about those innocents that are being murdered ?-- Why am I surprised you would write that?

Sorry, my sister who has alzheimers just phoned me for the first time and asked me who I was. yes, I am having a bad day. Not for a second am I saying that I am not sickened by what is happening - I am a Christian, but if I wasn't - if I wasn't religious I would still feel terrible that this is happening. I also feel terrible about the thousands of non Christians who are being murdered - women and children and husbands and sons all over the world. --

Why did you write that?? It is so hurtful. I wonder why you feel it necessary to write that. I guess I will get it from all directions. I really was trying to reach the kindness in all of us. Didn't work I guess.

CB- don't you know me better than that?? Do you agree with her that I don't care about the Christians and all those innocents all over the world of every religion who are being murdered. I am having a bad day because for the first time in my life my only sister doesn't know who I am.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Uh, huh. I started nothing. You brought up Eve's post about the decapitated Wombat 'joke,' not me. I never mentioned it until you did to me.


This is the post to me that started all of this and it belongs to you and note how aggressive it is:



knitpresentgifts said:


> You are such a hypocrite. The very week a SECOND American was beheaded, on an AMERICAN website about knitting, Eve (aka Martha) posted a beheaded wombat.
> 
> You think there was nothing of intentional insensitivity with Eve's post?
> 
> ...


Now this is a classic example of you deliberately manipulating who said what to whom and when. * The only time I have mentioned the wombat joke today was in a response to Gerslay.* I have not brought it up with you at all.



knitpresentsgifts said:


> You do THAT all the time, insult me and try to talk to me when you publicly have said you wouldn't.


If you call me having a go at you for calling people pigs as an insult, so be it. And I will continue to call you out each time you behave in the often childish way that you do. There are no other circumstances which would induce me to want to talk to you.



knitpresentgifts said:


> You really should figure out what you want. I didn't claim I'm a victim, I'm not. YOU said that too.


I know exactly what I want to do. Your behaviour today suggests that things are not going well for you. You have been provocative and down right rude not just to me but to others also. You're certainly behaving like a victim today.



knitpresentgifts said:


> You didn't win anything. I haven't wanted to converse with you since you went off the deep end, telling others and me that you were being ignored on the Denim thread. Remember? Then you insulted me again and again and again, and I wasn't even posting! You attacked and insulted and I hadn't said a word.


Things definitely shifted on D&P after I Skyped with SQM. My definition of going off the deep end is vastly different to yours. I'd say you've not only gone off the deep end today, you've splattered all over the place. Not much more to say except that my doubts about your integrity were thoroughly confirmed.



knitpresentgifts said:


> Then when I returned from a vacation, there you were still insulting and attacking everyone who befriended you and offered you friendship on that thread. The core posters stopped talking to you because that is what you inspired.


Not going to bother with this tripe.



knitpresentgifts said:


> You really are a weird one. Now you're hanging with the very people who attacked you viciously for months looking for acceptance I guess. So be it, your choice. You lost the friends on Denim that welcomed and supported you because of your recent ugly antics. Live with it. From my view, I'd said, you lost.


Intelligent people can work through issues without necessarily having to shout it out from the roof tops. You, on the other hand, with your childish approach towards other peoples opinions, statements creates divisiveness and dissent which is exactly what you set out to achieve although today you've taken it to another dimension and it looks like your just kicking the cat with the intention of causing a great deal of hurt.

I've lost nothing. I'm a survivor. No flies on me!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> You are having a bad day! What about the Christians that are being murdered every day. They would be glad just to have another day, bad or otherwise.


Of course they would, but would having empathy for Shirley or Eve take away from the feelings you have for the murdered Christians. No matter how bad one feels, there will always be others in the world who are dealing with far worse. Must we ignore the ones we can help in favor of those worse off whom we can offer nothing to?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Of course they would, but would having empathy to Shirley or Eve take away from the feelings you have for the murdered Christians. No matter how bad one feels, there will always be others in the world who are dealing with far worse. Must we ignore the ones we can help in favor of those worse off whom we can offer nothing to?


Thanks Purl. I am sorry I posted, to late to remove it. I can't write any more. Sorry Eve, it caught up with me too. S


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Thanks Purl. I am sorry I posted, to late to remove it. I can't write any more. Sorry Eve, it caught up with me too. S


Please don't be sorry about it. You were able to feel for Eve because you're having bad times yourself. I don't understand some people, who think others are so horribly bad that they needn't be treated like people. Thankfully, they're in the minority.

It must be terrible getting those calls from your younger sister. My mother died from Alzheimer's, and I sometimes wait for my sister or me to start showing signs. It's hard to contemplate, let alone see it happen to someone you love.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

This all serves as a warning to all of us - not to go on KP when you are having a bad day. Or stick with the knitting sections for a day or two.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> This all serves as a warning to all of us - not to go on KP when you are having a bad day. Or stick with the knitting sections for a day or two.


Or use the Ignore command and don't pay attention to toxic posters.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> This all serves as a warning to all of us - not to go on KP when you are having a bad day. Or stick with the knitting sections for a day or two.


Is that all you can say?

I was fine until about a half an hour ago - I read Eve's post and felt badly for then I got a phone call. Sorry I didn't stick with my knitting. I am out of here.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Or use the Ignore command and don't pay attention to toxic posters.


True, but sometimes...


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> True, but sometimes...


...the more ignorant, the harder to ignore?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> ...the more ignorant, the harder to ignore?


yeah, how can you ignore once you have read the post? And you need to read it, in order to ignore it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> yeah, how can you ignore once you have read the post? And you need to read it, in order to ignore it.


Set up your own twit filter; ignore anyone you want to. Not all posts are of earth-shaking importance, and by now you should know whose posts are ignorable


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> ===================
> Insult first, then accept her apology. She is hurting, a kind word could be in order -- I see KPG is ignoring her answer. When you are hurting it is easy to jump and fight back.
> 
> Gerslay -- it is hard to read how much Christian beliefs mean to you when two or three of you - spew nastiness constantly, never a kind word, absolute hate. I am not saying that about you. I don't know you, but it would have been nice to say - I am sorry you are having such a dreadful night - forget about what you said,- I will." 'I hope you feel better and I hope your son improves' --Maybe she might feel comforted. Would that be such a terrible thing for one or two of you to do? She apologized- wouldn't a word of comfort be a Christian reaction>
> ...


I insulted no one. I responded to Purl with an explanation and then I accepted her apology.

Ill say the same thing to you; How dare you judge my Christian walk based on what you dont like about other Christians. If as you say you are not saying it ABOUT ME, then please dont say it TO ME!

You and I almost never speak to one another and yet you jump in here and feel entitled to give me a lengthy lecture. Do you realize that you posted 760 words to me (yes I put your post in a counter) and not one word was in any way sympathetic to my position? Not one!

So Im sure youll be okay with me telling you that I really dont care what you have say, who you say it to, who ignores you, and who doesnt. However, Im very much aware that you and your husband have had some health issues lately, that you struggle with your sisters situation, that youve had considerable losses in your life, and that you are probably overwhelmed with being in the moving process right now. I treat you gently because you are one of the few elder stateswomen that we have here on KP and you deserve some respect, your politics notwithstanding.

Kindly give me the same benefit. Speak to me as an individual. Dont lump me in with who you like and dont like among my friends. Would you like me to say that I dont like you because SQM was mean to me? (Sorry SQM) Now wouldnt that be ridiculous?

You say youre off your soapbox? Designer, with all due respect, you get on and off your soapbox so often and usually on a daily basis that quite frankly you look like a Step Exercise class in slow motion! (Thats a joke!)

Peace!


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Intelligent people can work through issues without necessarily having to shout it out from the roof tops. You, on the other hand, with your childish approach towards other peoples opinions, statements creates divisiveness and dissent which is exactly what you set out to achieve although today you've taken it to another dimension and it looks like your just kicking the cat with the intention of causing a great deal of hurt.
> 
> I've lost nothing. I'm a survivor. No flies on me!


Oh, ye, of no memory. YOU started the conversation about Eve's thread about the decapitated wombat amongst a conversation about crucified Christians.

Your post was at 14:26:16
and mine was at 15:19:41

So go on with your falsehoods about who brought up the topic FIRST.

Maybe, you'll get one of your new friends to explain time and how it works.

You mentioned Eve's thread here because you wanted a reaction - well you got some. You should be happy and quiet now but don't judge those who responded; that is the only reason you mentioned it.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> If you call me having a go at you for calling people pigs as an insult, so be it. And I will continue to call you out each time you behave in the often childish way that you do. There are no other circumstances which would induce me to want to talk to you.


Uh, huh, carry on Wombatnomore. I said someone *behaved* like a pig when she brought it up because that is exactly how she did behave. That wasn't your unsolicited insults I was referring to anyway, and I couldn't care less how you talk about me. I would first have to respect you and your opinions, in order for your words to have impact on me. You have proven yourself to be unstable and turn on your friends when the mood suits you, so I no longer like or respect you.

You act exactly like Vocal Lisa, who viciously attacked you. I befriended you and supported you, and you turned on others and me exactly like she. No one has to believe me, they can simply read your back posts and review who you attacked and why (no reason).

As it to you not wanting to talk to me, you do that repeatedly as well, mostly now within an insult. Doesn't phase me in the least, since I ignore most of your posts now and have mostly ignored anyones when they go off.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> You are having a bad day! What about the Christians that are being murdered every day. They would be glad just to have another day, bad or otherwise.


 :thumbup: Seems according to the Libs on this thread we're to only be concerned about those who attack Israel. I'm concerned for the world.

It's in God's hands, and I know He knows what He is doing.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> I insulted no one. I responded to Purl with an explanation and then I accepted her apology.
> 
> Ill say the same thing to you; How dare you judge my Christian walk based on what you dont like about other Christians. If as you say you are not saying it ABOUT ME, then please dont say it TO ME!
> 
> ...


I must get one of those counters-- they are good to keep track. I am sorry I jumped you. I felt you were sarcastic after reading she was hurting. I over reacted I guess.
That is what happens on these threads. when one posts - I felt that she deserved a bit of a break because of what was happening and she did explain she might have over reacted. It seemed to me that you might have acknowledged it.

I did include you with the others - and I apologize. It is hard to separate one from the other when a few seem to feel they speak for everyone. Anyway, thanks for your blunt words. I guess that was what I was doing -- It didn't feel like I was on a soap box but then I guess it is in the eye of the reader.

Will enjoy the joke a bit more tomorrow I hope. Anyway, at least I got your truthful feelings which is nice. I have been gone and prior to that I have been getting ready for a move. Maybe you should count the words in my posts for the past month? I have shortened my posts quite a bit because I agreed I was speaking too much. First time I have been called an elder Statewoman - hmm, I guess I didn't realize that is how I am seen. Rather nice. Any way, just 27 more words. Have a good day, and I am sorry I put you in the same place as KPG and LTL. I have no bone to pick with you. I just felt you might have been a bit kinder to my friend.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Oh, ye, of no memory. YOU started the conversation about Eve's thread about the decapitated wombat amongst a conversation about crucified Christians.
> 
> Your post was at 14:26:16
> and mine was at 15:19:41
> ...


My post at 14:26:16 was in response to Gerslay, not you.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> My post at 14:26:16 was in response to Gerslay, not you.


On a public thread, correct?

After which you responded to my post, correct?

After which you told me to make posts of substance on the topic at hand, correct?

I'm done with this stupid conversation. You win.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> nothing more for me to say. I removed this post.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Uh, huh, carry on Wombatnomore. I said someone *behaved* like a pig when she brought it up because that is exactly how she did behave. That wasn't your unsolicited insults I was referring to anyway, and I couldn't care less how you talk about me. I would first have to respect you and your opinions, in order for your words to have impact on me. You have proven yourself to be unstable and turn on your friends when the mood suits you, so I no longer like or respect you.
> 
> You act exactly like Vocal Lisa, who viciously attacked you. I befriend you and supported you, and you turned on others and me exactly like she. No one has to believe me, that can simply read your back posts and review who you attacked and why (no reason).
> 
> As it to you not wanting to talk to me, you do that repeatedly as well, mostly now within an insult. Doesn't phase me in the least, since I ignore most of your posts now and have always ignored anyone's when you/they go off.


All I can say is that you make untrue posts with the knowledge that others are unlikely to check.

You are demonstrating yourself to be a narcissistic personality. Definition:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder Symptoms
By Psych Central Staff

Narcissistic Personality Disorder is characterized by a long-standing pattern of grandiosity (either in fantasy or actual behavior), an overwhelming need for admiration, and usually a complete lack of empathy toward others. People with this disorder often believe they are of primary importance in everybodys life or to anyone they meet. While this pattern of behavior may be appropriate for a king in 16th Century England, it is generally considered inappropriate for most ordinary people today.

People with narcissistic personality disorder often display snobbish, disdainful, or patronizing attitudes. For example, an individual with this disorder may complain about a clumsy waiters rudeness or stupidity or conclude a medical evaluation with a condescending evaluation of the physician.

In laypeople terms, someone with this disorder may be described simply as a narcissist or as someone with narcissism. Both of these terms generally refer to someone with narcissistic personality disorder.

A personality disorder is an enduring pattern of inner experience and behavior that deviates from the norm of the individuals culture. The pattern is seen in two or more of the following areas: cognition; affect; interpersonal functioning; or impulse control. The enduring pattern is inflexible and pervasive across a broad range of personal and social situations. It typically leads to significant distress or impairment in social, work or other areas of functioning. The pattern is stable and of long duration, and its onset can be traced back to early adulthood or adolescence.

Symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder

In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:
Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
Believes that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
Requires excessive admiration
Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Because personality disorders describe long-standing and enduring patterns of behavior, they are most often diagnosed in adulthood. It is uncommon for them to be diagnosed in childhood or adolescence, because a child or teen is under constant development, personality changes and maturation. However, if it is diagnosed in a child or teen, the features must have been present for at least 1 year.

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder-symptoms/


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I must get one of those counters-- they are good to keep track. I am sorry I jumped you. I felt you were sarcastic after reading she was hurting. I over reacted I guess.
> 
> That is what happens on these threads. when one posts - I felt that she deserved a bit of a break because of what was happening and she did explain she might have over reacted. It seemed to me that you might have acknowledged it.
> 
> ...


Designer, do you realize that I replied to Eve two hours before she mentioned that she was hurting over her son? And do you realize that she has yet to respond to me? If she ever does, I will most probably be kind to her as well. The ball, however, is in her court.

I accept your apology.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> All I can say is that you make untrue posts with the knowledge that others are unlikely to check.


Aren't you done talking to me yet? I challenge you to go back and check anything I've posted and prove me wrong.

G'day, Lisa.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Designer, do you realize that I replied to Eve two hours before she mentioned that she was hurting over her son? And do you realize that she has yet to respond to me? If she ever does, I will most probably be kind to her as well. The ball, however, is in her court.
> 
> I accept your apology.


Since it's around 8:30 am in Perth, she's probably been asleep for the past few hours.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Designer, do you realize that I replied to Eve two hours before she mentioned that she was hurting over her son? And do you realize that she has yet to respond to me? If she ever does, I will most probably be kind to her as well. The ball, however, is in her court.
> 
> I accept your apology.


no I didn't realize that. I will have to start watching the time. each post is posted. I just thought and still think a bit of kindness might have made her feel better, even if it was later on when she posted a 2nd post would have been nice. It doesn't matter now - it is in the past. I have said I have no quarrel with you. I will remember this conversation and not put thoughts and words in your mouth - It is hard to keep track as no one ever says, sorry you are sick, or sorry you are hurting, except one or two who have a lot of courage.

No one will acknowledge it although I do know that there were people on the left who sent messages to Yarnie and others who were hurting. I don't remember seeing any acknowledgment - maybe privately, who knows. I know I was told off about mine and ignored and discussed on D and P as if I had ulterior motives. I don't ever go there now at all I learned my lesson. That is why I believe so strongly that Neutral bridges is a good thing but only one or at the most two join in. Once in a very long while one will so they must be reading it. sad to me.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Well ladies, we have lots of business tomorrow to finish up here so I doubt I will be around . Might try to go to NB tomorrow night so might see you there. Eve, I hope you are sleeping now and getting some rest. 

Thoughts are with you.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Aren't you done talking to me yet? I challenge you to go back and check anything I've posted and prove me wrong.
> 
> G'day, Lisa.


pfffttt...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Vouchers only take away funds from schools that teach ALL students. I am a firm believer in public schools. If you don't like the way they are run, get involved and change it.



joeysomma said:


> Very good explanation for the need of school vouchers provided by the government so parents can choose the best school for their child.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I love animals and choose not to insult them.



Gerslay said:


> You know, ever since I read that post of yours I couldn't get it out of my mind. I thought it very odd coming from you as I associate that word with "The Beast of Belsen" and "The Beast of Buchenwald" and how often we've read of Naziis referring to Jews as less than beasts.
> 
> I didn't know whether to confront you publically or privately and in time I decided to just it go. But something about the way you just choose to ignore the substance of my post and only focus on what you think of as the tone of my post changed my mind. You might consider your own dramatic license next time to refer to us on D&P as beasts!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I would not say you lived in a ghetto, I would say that you were indeed lucky to live in such a diverse neighbourhood.
> 
> I grew up during the post war immigration era, displaced people from all over Europe coming to settle in Australia and calling it home. I went to school with many immigrant children who did not speak a word of English when they first arrived. Some of them sufferred terribly under Hitler, they had sad tales to tell. When I was 10 years old I had one particular friend who lived next door for a while. He, his mother and father kept to themselves, avoided other people. Mum told me to go and play with him. Until then I did not know that people actually lived in the house. The family had spent years in hiding from the Nazis and the fear was still there. Yes they were Jewish. My father was also employed as a cook at the migrant hostel near our home at one stage. He would often bring the migrants home to meet his family and we were encouraged to talk to them, and we learnt a lot from them. It was a male migrant camp as the male migrants were brought out without the women in many cases. We needed the labour more than the families.
> 
> ...


Bravo Eve, especially on the last sentence.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I've got your back Eve.



EveMCooke said:


> KPG I ask you one question. Is it your intention to drive me off KP? Do you wish me not to post here any more? Because it seems to me that you do. I know you do not like me because I am not a Christian. Believe me, my post was not intended to cause such an uproar. It was a joke that I published, then removed. To be honest I really do not think that you actually saw the original post. It was not disgusting, abhorrent and crass. But some of your remarks that you have made on KP are disgusting and crass. I apologised and removed the post, so why are you still raking over the coals? Am I your latest victim, am I the latest person you are choosing to pour your acid comments over? I have no doubt that you have screamed to certain parties to have me banned from KP, perhaps that is your agenda. Ban everyone who does not toe your line.
> 
> I see you have updated your post since I started to reply to you. You added the lines "Thousands of Christians are being crucified and murdered daily, and you and she thought this the appropriate time for that disgusting attempt at humor and then you both rant on and on that neither of you wish to hear from Christians.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Eve,
> 
> You've been more gracious in your reply than was necessary. In future, don't waste your time. Better things to type about.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

"Actions speak louder than words."



knitpresentgifts said:


> As usual, you cannot see the forest through the trees.
> I thought we are not to speak about Christianity?
> Every single one of my needs is met, I understand that is not the case of you. I am extremely blessed. Guess why? Want me to tell you about it?
> 
> Oh, I'm rested, aren't you?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Go away, tout suite, 'sweet' toots.



knitpresentgifts said:


> You never get to me. I told you, no matter what you throw at me, it doesn't stick. I'm loved and have God.
> 
> I like the nickname Toots though. :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> You won't gather the evidence of your claims because there is none.
> 
> You do this time and time again. You started this so don't try to make out that your the victim.
> 
> I have gotten to you otherwise you wouldn't be wanting this exchange to end. I win.


SCORE!!!!!!!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Lovely Shirley. You help us all.



Designer1234 said:


> Eve - you have friends here and we care about you. The average person would say, "sorry you have had such a bad time -- I hope things get better - There are a lot of us who care about you. I hope that your post is accepted and it is understood.
> 
> Anyway, try to get some rest and know that we are thinking of you. I have a friend who has an autistic son and it is sooo difficult. He is very very ill with it and is now l8 and they don't know what they are going to be able to do. It is getting very hard. So, take deep breaths and know that I would go to help you if I could.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Dear Designer1234, Sorry to hear about Marjorie. Thinking of you.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> ...the more ignorant, the harder to ignore?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Sorry to say....


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We all know you edit your posts frequently. We're on to you.



knitpresentgifts said:


> Aren't you done talking to me yet? I challenge you to go back and check anything I've posted and prove me wrong.
> 
> G'day, Lisa.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

damemary said:


> I love animals and choose not to insult them.


Her ladyship has spoken. As always, a post that is as equally significant as it is brief.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Gerslay said:


> Her ladyship has spoken. As always, a post that is as equally significant as it is brief.


 :mrgreen:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Her ladyship has spoken. As always, a post that is as equally significant as it is brief.


 What you've said is that damemary's post is indeed significant, since it certainly is brief. You may want to edit that.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> ===================
> Insult first, then accept her apology. She is hurting, a kind word could be in order -- I see KPG is ignoring her answer. When you are hurting it is easy to jump and fight back.
> 
> Gerslay -- it is hard to read how much Christian beliefs mean to you when two or three of you - spew nastiness constantly, never a kind word, absolute hate. I am not saying that about you. I don't know you, but it would have been nice to say - I am sorry you are having such a dreadful night - forget about what you said,- I will." 'I hope you feel better and I hope your son improves' --Maybe she might feel comforted. Would that be such a terrible thing for one or two of you to do? She apologized- wouldn't a word of comfort be a Christian reaction>
> ...


Why did you bring me into your rant?


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I must get one of those counters-- they are good to keep track. I am sorry I jumped you. I felt you were sarcastic after reading she was hurting. I over reacted I guess.
> That is what happens on these threads. when one posts - I felt that she deserved a bit of a break because of what was happening and she did explain she might have over reacted. It seemed to me that you might have acknowledged it.
> 
> I did include you with the others - and I apologize. It is hard to separate one from the other when a few seem to feel they speak for everyone. Anyway, thanks for your blunt words. I guess that was what I was doing -- It didn't feel like I was on a soap box but then I guess it is in the eye of the reader.
> ...


Again why bring me into your conversation and continue to be nasty to me? Your fixation on me is worrisome.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> What you've said is that damemary's post is indeed significant, since it certainly is brief. You may want to edit that.


I know what I said, Purl. Who can't love someone who loves animals?

But thanks for always being there to correct my spelling, my grammar, and my thoughts!

:lol: :thumbup:  :XD:


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Again why bring me into your conversation and continue to be nasty to me? Your fixation on me is worrisome.


==

nothing for you to worry ahout - you know that.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> What you've said is that damemary's post is indeed significant, since it certainly is brief. You may want to edit that.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> I know what I said, Purl. Who can't love someone who loves animals?
> 
> But thanks for always being there to correct my spelling, my grammar, and my thoughts!
> 
> :lol: :thumbup: :XD:


I thought you were being sarcastic. It's the kind of message I would have written with that in mind. I see I have to apologize to you all over the place these days. I'm only trying to make you perfect in all ways. :roll: :roll: :roll:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD:


Apparently Gerslay meant just that, so I wasn't funny, just pedantic.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I thought you were being sarcastic. It's the kind of message I would have written with that in mind. I see I have to apologize to you all over the place these days. I'm only trying to make you perfect in all ways. :roll: :roll: :roll:


Purl...It was either too late last night or its too early today. I was being sarcastic......!

You can take back your apology!

:XD: :XD: :XD:

Maybe you could help me get over my addiction to exclamation points, though. I'd appreciate it!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Purl...It was either too late last night or its too early today. I was being sarcastic......!
> 
> You can take back your apology!
> 
> ...


We could try: every time you use more than one !, I'll make a pedantic correction. Then maybe you'll stop, and I'll get as bored with my own writing as you must be.

Hold on to the apology. I know I'll need it again soon. Think of it as a deposit.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Why did you bring me into your rant?


Good question - I have the same.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Again why bring me into your conversation and continue to be nasty to me? Your fixation on me is worrisome.


We're twins.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD:


Keep the laughs; she didn't mean it.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> We could try: every time you use more than one !, I'll make a pedantic correction. Then maybe you'll stop, and I'll get as bored with my own writing as you must be.
> 
> Hold on to the apology. I know I'll need it again soon. Think of it as a deposit.


hold on to a couple for me too.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Destroying Isis May Take Years:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/world/middleeast/destroying-isis-may-take-3-years-white-house-says.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=LedeSum&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> ==
> 
> nothing for you to worry ahout - you know that.


I am not worried; just sick and tired of your fixation of attacking me without the courage to talk to me directly.

You have a problem with something I said, fine, say something. Other than that, you appear to seeking attention and approval of others by sniping at me.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We both read it the same.



Poor Purl said:


> Apparently Gerslay meant just that, so I wasn't funny, just pedantic.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My 'dear,'
You make wild statements backed only by your own bias. It would probably be best for all of us to ignore you. I'll try again. God bless.



lovethelake said:


> I am not worried; just sick and tired of your fixation of attacking me without the courage to talk to me directly.
> 
> You have a problem with something I said, fine, say something. Other than that, you appear to seeking attention and approval of others by sniping at me.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> ===================
> Insult first, then accept her apology. She is hurting, a kind word could be in order -- I see KPG is ignoring her answer. When you are hurting it is easy to jump and fight back.
> 
> Gerslay -- it is hard to read how much Christian beliefs mean to you when two or three of you - spew nastiness constantly, never a kind word, absolute hate. I am not saying that about you. I don't know you, but it would have been nice to say - I am sorry you are having such a dreadful night - forget about what you said,- I will." 'I hope you feel better and I hope your son improves' --Maybe she might feel comforted. Would that be such a terrible thing for one or two of you to do? She apologized- wouldn't a word of comfort be a Christian reaction>
> ...


Why are you bringing me into your response to Gerslay? This is nothing more than a backhanded attack.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

I've been thinking about whether it's realistic that Arab nations embrace democracy. The idea flies in the face of the fact that Islam/Allah is the ultimate standard and the tribal roots of the people. Anyway I found this very interesting piece about this very subject:

http://www.meforum.org/40/can-democracy-prevail


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I've been thinking about whether it's realistic that Arab nations embrace democracy. The idea flies in the face of the fact that Islam/Allah is the ultimate standard and the tribal roots of the people. Anyway I found this very interesting piece about this very subject:
> 
> http://www.meforum.org/40/can-democracy-prevail


Agree. "Democracy" is not everyone's cup of tea and as soon as the US realizes that we can see thru their bogus wish to make the Middle East more democratic rather than control the flow of oil, the better things will be.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Agree. "Democracy" is not everyone's cup of tea and as soon as the US realizes that we can see thru their bogus wish to make the Middle East more democratic rather than control the flow of oil, the better things will be.


The more I read about the Middle East, embracing democracy there doesn't make sense. It would be interesting to see what the alternatives could be. I think it's obvious that what many of the Arab nations are doing is not working. Have lessons been learned re the Ottoman Empire?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

The Arabs want to recapture their glory of 1000 years ago when they were the world's intellectuals and had a sizable empire. As my Brother the Historian says - they never went thru a Reformation.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> The Arabs want to recapture their glory of 1000 years ago when they were the world's intellectuals and had a sizable empire. As my Brother the Historian says - they never went thru a Reformation.


The wests involvement with the Arab nations hasn't worked. Is it really only all about the oil?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> Why are you bringing me into your response to Gerslay? This is nothing more than a backhanded attack.


 :thumbup:


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> The wests involvement with the Arab nations hasn't worked. Is it really only all about the oil?


I don't think we want to capture their burkas as a new fashion statement. What other reason can there be? What other resource would interest us?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I don't think we want to capture their burkas as a new fashion statement. What other reason can there be? What other resource would interest us?


It's hard to think of any other reason.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> I don't think we want to capture their burkas as a new fashion statement. What other reason can there be? What other resource would interest us?


Shoot, the Middle East has been a hot spot for thousands of years as Christians, Jews, and Muslims fight over territory and boundary lines. It doesn't help, of course, that the key religious monuments and shrines of all three religions are located on roughly the same real estate. I don't expect the region to ever find peace, even after the oil runs out.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> The wests involvement with the Arab nations hasn't worked. Is it really only all about the oil?


Let me suggest a plausible scenario. ISIS is goading the US into action against it through these recent murders. ISIS needs an external "great Satan" as the focus of its jihad and the US fits that role to a tee. Without such a target, ISIS will eventually splinter internally or be attacked by other terror groups (already happening with Al Qaeda) or surrounding threatened "moderate" Muslim nations. Those threatened "moderate" Muslim nations are hoping that the US will react and save them from the trouble of taking care of their immediate problem. This is a form of surrogate warfare that is a key principle of Middle East warfare. Get someone else to do the dirty work while you have plausible denial of involvement. 
What the US should do is keep a low profile, lean on and support militarily those "moderate" Muslim nations most threatened by ISIS and have them deal with the problem. We should only participate by conducting warfare as only we can by remote control: intelligence, drones, air power. Surrogate warfare.... western style.
A line from "The Godfather" comes to mind when I think about the Middle East.
"Every time I get out they pull me back in." Micheal Corleone.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Let me suggest a plausible scenario. ISIS is goading the US into action against it through these recent murders. ISIS needs an external "great Satan" as the focus of its jihad and the US fits that role to a tee. Without such a target, ISIS will eventually splinter internally or be attacked by other terror groups (already happening with Al Qaeda) or surrounding threatened "moderate" Muslim nations. Those threatened "moderate" Muslim nations are hoping that the US will react and save them from the trouble of taking care of their immediate problem. This is a form of surrogate warfare that is a key principle of Middle East warfare. Get someone else to do the dirty work while you have plausible denial of involvement.
> What the US should do is keep a low profile, lean on and support militarily those "moderate" Muslim nations most threatened by ISIS and have them deal with the problem. We should only participate by conducting warfare as only we can by remote control: intelligence, drones, air power. Surrogate warfare.... western style.
> A line from "The Godfather" comes to mind when I think about the Middle East.
> "Every time I get out they pull me back in." Micheal Corleone.


I think the trouble with the "America the Great Satan" theory is that, despite the fiery rhetoric and the two American heads that have rolled (literally), most of ISIS' wrath has seem focused on brother Muslims. We've lost a couple of American journalists, but they're slaughtering their own by the thousands in equally gruesome ways. Didn't ISIS just decapitate some 700 Syrian soldiers? As far as mortal enemies go, ISIS seems capable of finding them everywhere--on their own streets and yes, even in the mosques.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I think the trouble with the "America the Great Satan" theory is that, despite the fiery rhetoric and the two American heads that have rolled (literally), most of ISIS' wrath has seem focused on brother Muslims. We've lost a couple of American journalists, but they're slaughtering their own by the thousands in equally gruesome ways. Didn't ISIS just decapitate some 700 Syrian soldiers? As far as mortal enemies go, ISIS seems capable of finding them everywhere--on their own streets and yes, even in the mosques.


You got that right! They will stop at nothing. I guess it's just my opinion that they are trying to get us involved again. The more horror provided, the angrier we get and BOOM! There we are again right smack inh the middle of it.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> You got that right! They will stop at nothing. I guess it's just my opinion that they are trying to get us involved again. The more horror provided, the angrier we get and BOOM! There we are again right smack inh the middle of it.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> [/quote
> 
> Susan, thats just my opinion. I am not in disagreement with you. Just stating some random thoughts.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> susanmos2000 said:
> 
> 
> > [/quote
> ...


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Heehee--I know and agree with you, hence the sad face. The Middle East is like a cement mixer--climb in for any reason and prepare to be entombed for life.


Great analogy!!


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

SQM said:


> Agree. "Democracy" is not everyone's cup of tea and as soon as the US realizes that we can see thru their bogus wish to make the Middle East more democratic rather than control the flow of oil, the better things will be.


They don't want democracy - I don't why the U.S. thinks they need to promote democracy on other nations.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> They don't want democracy - I don't why the U.S. thinks they need to promote democracy on other nations.


We seem to get in more trouble when we do!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

GWPlver said:


> They don't want democracy - I don't why the U.S. thinks they need to promote democracy on other nations.


it is a ruse to expand the US Empire.

Hi Panda the Perfect!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Agree. "Democracy" is not everyone's cup of tea and as soon as the US realizes that we can see thru their bogus wish to make the Middle East more democratic rather than control the flow of oil, the better things will be.


That's probably true. Besides, if you hear the righties talk, this country isn't a democracy. So why did Bush want to spread democracy to the Middle East?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> The Arabs want to recapture their glory of 1000 years ago when they were the world's intellectuals and had a sizable empire. As my Brother the Historian says - they never went thru a Reformation.


Or an Enlightenment.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> That's probably true. Besides, if you hear the righties talk, this country isn't a democracy. So why did Bush want to spread democracy to the Middle East?


See my post above. Are you referring to KP righties or other righties? I think most who support the country, flag and apple pie will say this is a democracy.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I don't think we want to capture their burkas as a new fashion statement. What other reason can there be? What other resource would interest us?


The Arabs invented zero. Maybe we want more like that.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> The Arabs invented zero. Maybe we want more like that.


Actually they were great mathematicians and astronomers. They did well in the 11 century and that is what they wish to regain.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> See my post above. Are you referring to KP righties or other righties? I think most who support the country, flag and apple pie will say this is a democracy.


KP. Doesn't Joey go on and on trying to prove this is not a democracy because the word is not part of the country's name?

But I think it's a campaign on the part of either the GOP or the very far right, to rewrite history so that the word "democracy" doesn't appear in connection with the Founding.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> KP. Doesn't Joey go on and on trying to prove this is not a democracy because the word is not part of the country's name?
> 
> But I think it's a campaign on the part of either the GOP or the very far right, to rewrite history so that the word "democracy" doesn't appear in connection with the Founding.


Do I really need to address a comment on this country by Mrs. Somma? Do I care what the Right claims is true? I will stick to my theory that the US is a failing empire. I like your Gide quote. Says it all historically.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> They don't want democracy - I don't why the U.S. thinks they need to promote democracy on other nations.


Besides, as Dick Gregory is reported to have said, I dont know why America always thinks she has to run all around the world forcing people to take our way of governance at the barrel of a gun. When youve got something really good, you dont have to force it on people. They will steal it!"


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Besides, as Dick Gregory is reported to have said, I dont know why America always thinks she has to run all around the world forcing people to take our way of governance at the barrel of a gun. When youve got something really good, you dont have to force it on people. They will steal it!"


Good!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Besides, as Dick Gregory is reported to have said, I dont know why America always thinks she has to run all around the world forcing people to take our way of governance at the barrel of a gun. When youve got something really good, you dont have to force it on people. They will steal it!"


 :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Do I really need to address a comment on this country by Mrs. Somma? Do I care what the Right claims is true? I will stick to my theory that the US is a failing empire. I like your Gide quote. Says it all historically.


I think the campaign to get rid of the word "democracy" is very important. The next step is to get rid of universal suffrage, which would help the oligarchy enormously.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I think the campaign to get rid of the word "democracy" is very important. The next step is to get rid of universal suffrage, which would help the oligarchy enormously.


Ha Ha, You are sounding like Nebs now.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Ha Ha, You are sounding like Nebs now.


I get what you mean.

But why else are they redefining the forms of government?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I get what you mean.
> 
> But why else are they redefining the forms of government?


Whatever is done in this country now, it is being done to support the military and the corporations. If you are referring to what is happening in Iraq now with a change in their parliament - I assume it must relate to ISIS being in control of over 1/3 of the country.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Whatever is done in this country now, it is being done to support the military and the corporations. If you are referring to what is happening in Iraq now with a change in their parliament - I assume it must relate to ISIS being in control of over 1/3 of the country.


In this country. I think it's purely the 1% that wants this done.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> In this country. I think it's purely the 1% that wants this done.


Same thing as the corporations and the military.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Same thing as the corporations and the military.


No, the corporations and the military, as well as the banks, are in the employ of the 1%.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> That's probably true. Besides, if you hear the righties talk, this country isn't a democracy. So why did Bush want to spread democracy to the Middle East?


It is a Republic, because the Founding Fathers knew it would not be possible for every American to vote on every issue or bill. But we were founded on the principle of democracy where every vote was equal to every other vote and that we have inalienable rights of Life, Liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness (Note no guarantee of happiness).

I find absolutely no proof that America wants to be an empire. That is just an example of an inflammatory comment that is just wrong. I guess if we were to be accused of anything is that we are proud of our country and our principle of democracy by a representative government, and want others to have the same freedoms that we have. We don't get beheaded for criticizing the government. We have can choose our own religion without the government telling us how to believe and worship (or not). We have checks and balances to prevent a dictator from taking over. We have problems, but I for one am thankful for what freedoms and liberties I have as an American. For example, this tread would not exist in many countries, or the posters could be arrested for their thoughts. If we wanted an empire we would not try to help other people gain the freedom they have and deserve.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> It is a Republic, because the Founding Fathers knew it would not be possible for every American to vote on every issue or bill. But we were founded on the principle of democracy where every vote was equal to every other vote and that we have inalienable rights of Life, Liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness (Note no guarantee of happiness).


You're right, LTL, that the Founding Fathers were aware that in a true democracy all votes are equal. But it's perfectly obvious they thought this a bad thing. Why do you think they put in place a system in which the President is voted for indirectly, through an Electoral College?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> You're right, LTL, that the Founding Fathers were aware that in a true democracy all votes are equal. But it's perfectly obvious they thought this a bad thing. Why do you think they put in place a system in which the President is voted for indirectly, through an Electoral College?


Just read your post - I cannot believe you don't know the answer to your question. Probably just you making crap up again for a reaction, but if not, you are really dumb.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Just read your post - I cannot believe you don't know the answer to your question. Probably just you making crap up again for a reaction, but if not, you are really dumb.


Don't have an answer, eh KPG? (I'll wait while you frantically research and attempt to cobble something together)


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> If we had a true Democracy, do you think gay marriage would be allowed? would the Bible be taught in School? Would mosques be allowed? Be careful what you wish for.


Gay marriage--yes. 41% of Americans are against it but 50% think it's fine (Washington Post--ABC poll). Prayer in schools--yes (65% pro). Not sure about the mosques, but I'd guess that most Americans wouldn't be comfortable razing all the mosques, however uncomfortable they make people feel.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Ha Ha, You are sounding like Nebs now.


That depends upon whether you think that "Universal Suffrage" extends the right to vote, to non citizens. I firmly believe that ONLY citizens should be allowed to vote!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I get what you mean.
> 
> But why else are they redefining the forms of government?


I'm not sure who you're referring to, when you say "they". The people (myself included) who say that we are not a democracy, but are a republic are correct. The founders with intent, did not choose a democracy. They chose a republic, expressly so the the majority could not trod over the rights of the individual. Everything was about individual rights. There are similarities between a democracy and a republic, but they're not the same thing. During recent decades, there's been a big push away from individual rights. The best way to remove individual rights, is to refer to us as a democracy and thus, pretend those rights never existed.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> In this country. I think it's purely the 1% that wants this done.


And I think it's the 1% who's trying to make everyone think we're a democracy, thus removing individual rights. It's very easy for the 1% to sway people's opinions of what the majority want. They own ALL of the media. The individual is told that their rights don't count, because the majority wants something else. What if they're not telling the truth about what the majority wants? We just go along and give up our rights. The founders knew where this would lead.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> No, the corporations and the military, as well as the banks, are in the employ of the 1%.


Yes, and THEY'RE the ones who want to remove individual rights. It's easier to control people who think they must "go along".


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Just read your post - I cannot believe you don't know the answer to your question. Probably just you making crap up again for a reaction, but if not, you are really dumb.


Lakes and Mos were having an intelligent conversation and you drop your mean bomb again. Please try to add something more substantive to the conversation if you can.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> You don't get it. It matters not the public opinion now. What was the public opinion when it first came up. Remember California voted down the Gay marriage twice. There would be none except for a few judges. Is that democracy? If not for Madeline Murray O'Hare the Bible would still be taught in school. There would be not have been permits given for mosques to be built.


May O'Hare rest in peace wherever she is. Bible is taught in religious schools which is appropriate. I went to a school that was 95% Jewish. Why should the few Catholics have been made to listen to the Hebrew Bible? As for building mosques, fair is fair. Space is given to all other religions. I think most muslims are just like we are - it is the Islamist that we need to worry about.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> Lakes and Mos were having an intelligent conversation and you drop your mean bomb again. Please try to add something more substantive to the conversation if you can.


No one is able to have an intelligent conversation with Mos. Mos only posts BS trying to incite others. LTL was saying Mos was a bigot because Mos made a sweeping bigoted statement about men with beards. Then Mos posed a question about the USA electoral college in her attempt to draw people to respond to her.

When will you learn?

Instead, for the past days you act exactly like your buds Lisa and Womb - all alike - imagine that, insulting posters rather than holding discussions.

Try adding to the conversation if *you* can Sloth instead of attempting to be thread monitor and adding nothing. You own past comments are proven falsehoods and yet you continue with them. Why?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> It is a Republic, because the Founding Fathers knew it would not be possible for every American to vote on every issue or bill. But we were founded on the principle of democracy where every vote was equal to every other vote and that we have inalienable rights of Life, Liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness (Note no guarantee of happiness).
> 
> I find absolutely no proof that America wants to be an empire. That is just an example of an inflammatory comment that is just wrong. I guess if we were to be accused of anything is that we are proud of our country and our principle of democracy by a representative government, and want others to have the same freedoms that we have. We don't get beheaded for criticizing the government. We have can choose our own religion without the government telling us how to believe and worship (or not). We have checks and balances to prevent a dictator from taking over. We have problems, but I for one am thankful for what freedoms and liberties I have as an American. For example, this tread would not exist in many countries, or the posters could be arrested for their thoughts. If we wanted an empire we would not try to help other people gain the freedom they have and deserve.


Not exactly. We're a representative republic. Individual votes don't count much in a presidential election. The electoral college is whose votes count. The founders set it up this way so that representatives could choose what was best for their people. It was assumed that the people would not be informed enough to make the right decision or that someone could buy the votes of the people. Those things are still problems today, but our representatives usually cast their electoral vote in favor of the majority anyway. Not to mention, our representatives do what's best for themselves, not the people.

I also think you're wrong that America doesn't want to be an empire. We already are. Ask anybody from any other country. We don't use the word "empire" anymore but look at what we've become. We try to control every other country on earth. We use the power and might of our military to do that. Our system of "checks and balances" is plainly GONE and our rights are being whittled away at, all of the time. While you may still have the freedom to post your opinions on this thread, don't forget... they're tracking everything you say. Computers are recording it all. They're keeping lists. We're losing what we once had because no one is paying attention. They just assume that everything is, as it once was. People need to wake up!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> You don't get it! It matters not the public opinion now. What was the public opinion when it first came up. Remember California voted down the Gay marriage twice. There would be none except for a few judges. Is that democracy? If not for Madeline Murray O'Hare the Bible would still be taught in school. There would be not have been permits given for mosques to be built.


You're correct Joey. Susan really doesn't understand why the President is elected by an electoral college and her further comments just proved it.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> No one is able to have an intelligent conversation with Mos. Mos only posts BS trying to incite others. LTL was saying Mos was a bigot because Mos made a bigoted statement about men in beards in her ignorance. Then once again, Mos made another stupid statement about the USA electoral college trying once again to draw people to respond to her.
> 
> When will you learn?
> 
> ...


Dah-link - sober up - my best contribution of the day.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Gay marriage--yes. 41% of Americans are against it but 50% think it's fine (Washington Post--ABC poll). Prayer in schools--yes (65% pro). Not sure about the mosques, but I'd guess that most Americans wouldn't be comfortable razing all the mosques, however uncomfortable they make people feel.


That's IF the poll is fair and balanced! Polls can be made to say anything you want them to say. The media can just pull out a poll, and tell people what to believe and the people will believe it! Keep in mind, it's the 1% that owns ALL of the media. THEY tell everyone what to believe!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> Dah-link - sober up - my best contribution of the day.


Poor attempt SQM - I don't drink. You can do better, please try.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I do love Nebs very much.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> That's IF the poll is fair and balanced! Polls can be made to say anything you want them to say. The media can just pull out a poll, and tell people what to believe and the people will believe it! Keep in mind, it's the 1% that owns ALL of the media. THEY tell everyone what to believe!


I know you don't wish to talk to me, but I wonder if you see good in anything or anyone. You have such cynical views, negative and conspiracy theories about everything and everyone, most wrong I would add, and believe all the world is out to get you.

I feel for you - you need God.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Poor attempt SQM - I don't drink. You can do better, please try.


Okay.

How about trying not to insult others with a different POV? Either ignore or refute without the put-downs. Then you will beloved by most.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I know you don't wish to talk to me, but I wonder if you see good in anything or anyone. You have such cynical views, conspiracy theories about everything and everyone, most wrong I would add, and believe all the world is out to get you.
> 
> I feel for you - you need God.


Actually God needs her to keep his job.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> No one is able to have an intelligent conversation with Mos. Mos only posts BS trying to incite others. LTL was saying Mos was a bigot because Mos made a sweeping bigoted statement about men with beards. Then Mos posed a question about the USA electoral college in her attempt to draw people to respond to her.
> 
> When will you learn?
> 
> ...


It's YOU, who comes to incite others! Susan WAS trying to draw people to respond to her! THAT'S what discussion is about! You rarely participate in DISCUSSION! Instead you come to dictate what is right and wrong! You criticize, ridicule and insult! JUST GO AWAY!!!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> What don't you understand?! If we had a democracy none of the things mentioned would have ever been up for discussion and would have never been acted on!


Discussion is critical in our form of government. Would you have liked the small minority of Christians reading the Hebrew Bible in my school?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I do love Nebs very much.


Thanks, SQM! I love you, too!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> Okay.
> 
> How about trying not to insult others with a different POV? Either ignore or refute without the put-downs. Then you will beloved by most.


How about you understanding that I don't do that, the Libs and you do? Try rereading when a conversation begins, who throws the barbs and why. Then get back to me.

I ignore most posters because they do nothing but insult. I don't play to the crowd, and don't care what those without normal intellectual skills think of me.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> What don't you understand?! If we had a democracy none of the things mentioned would have ever been up for discussion and would have never been acted on!


It is a waste of time trying to discuss with them Joey. We've known it for ages.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> Actually God needs her to keep his job.


What?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> It is a Republic, because the Founding Fathers knew it would not be possible for every American to vote on every issue or bill. But we were founded on the principle of democracy where every vote was equal to every other vote and that we have inalienable rights of Life, Liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness (Note no guarantee of happiness).


Thank you for making sense. Note, also, that Life is a right, one that is not guaranteed unless every American has access to appropriate medical care (and care in an ER is usually not appropriate).



> I find absolutely no proof that America wants to be an empire. That is just an example of an inflammatory comment that is just wrong. I guess if we were to be accused of anything is that we are proud of our country and our principle of democracy by a representative government, and want others to have the same freedoms that we have. We don't get beheaded for criticizing the government. We have can choose our own religion without the government telling us how to believe and worship (or not). We have checks and balances to prevent a dictator from taking over. We have problems, but I for one am thankful for what freedoms and liberties I have as an American. For example, this tread would not exist in many countries, or the posters could be arrested for their thoughts. If we wanted an empire we would not try to help other people gain the freedom they have and deserve.


I have no disagreement with you on this. No system is perfect, and there have been people who disagreed with the government who were driven to suicide (Aaron Swartz comes to mind) and some whose spouses were forced out of their positions (Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame).


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I know you don't wish to talk to me, but I wonder if you see good in anything or anyone. You have such cynical views, negative and conspiracy theories about everything and everyone, most wrong I would add, and believe all the world is out to get you.
> 
> I feel for you - you need God.


I see good in individuals, not governments! I see good where you won't even look! My GOD, loves ALL of his children. MY LORD says to forgive! My Bible tells me what's happening in the world and I refuse to deny it!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It's YOU, who comes to incite others! Susan WAS trying to draw people to respond to her! THAT'S what discussion is about! You rarely participate in DISCUSSION! Instead you come to dictate what is right and wrong! You criticize, ridicule and insult! JUST GO AWAY!!!


Here you go again. Forget it KFN, carry on with your gloom and doom. Don't bother to understand what you read.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Okay.
> 
> How about trying not to insult others with a different POV? Either ignore or refute without the put-downs. Then you will beloved by most.


Not possible! Her heart is black with hatred!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> What don't you understand?! If we had a democracy none of the things mentioned would have ever been up for discussion and would have never been acted on!


OR, they would have been voted on, every other week.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Actually God needs her to keep his job.


Blasphemy!!!


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

SQM said:


> it is a ruse to expand the US Empire.
> 
> Hi Panda the Perfect!


Hi Sloth the Sweet One!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I see good in individuals, not governments! I see good where you won't even look! My GOD, loves ALL of his children. MY LORD says to forgive! My Bible tells me what's happening in the world and I refuse to deny it!


The govt, like corporations, is made up of individuals. I have yet to read one post of yours that is positive on anything or anyone. You have no faith in God, people or anything.

My God _is_ Love. My God wants people to believe in Him and have the faith of a child. You deny God's teachings because you do not have Faith in Him or believe in His promises. You judge me and everyone. Christians are not allowed to do so. Christians are to be on mission, en Christo, and be in the Church community. You practice none of those things.

That isn't me judging you, but understanding you by your own words.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Besides, as Dick Gregory is reported to have said, I dont know why America always thinks she has to run all around the world forcing people to take our way of governance at the barrel of a gun. When youve got something really good, you dont have to force it on people. They will steal it!"


Now that's a good quote!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> That depends upon whether you think that "Universal Suffrage" extends the right to vote, to non citizens. I firmly believe that ONLY citizens should be allowed to vote!


Of course only citizens should be allowed to vote, which is what goes on here, despite the fact that one political party likes to pretend that huge numbers of people vote fraudulently. People here illegally don't vote because they don't want their presence known.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm not sure who you're referring to, when you say "they". The people (myself included) who say that we are not a democracy, but are a republic are correct. The founders with intent, did not choose a democracy. They chose a republic, expressly so the the majority could not trod over the rights of the individual. Everything was about individual rights. There are similarities between a democracy and a republic, but they're not the same thing. During recent decades, there's been a big push away from individual rights. The best way to remove individual rights, is to refer to us as a democracy and thus, pretend those rights never existed.


With all due respect, Nebraska, that's nonsense.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

SQM said:


> May O'Hare rest in peace wherever she is. Bible is taught in religious schools which is appropriate. I went to a school that was 95% Jewish. Why should the few Catholics have been made to listen to the Hebrew Bible? As for building mosques, fair is fair. Space is given to all other religions. I think most muslims are just like we are - it is the Islamist that we need to worry about.


Righty-o on this one!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> The govt, like corporations, is made up of individuals. I have yet to read one post of yours that is positive on anything or anyone. You have no faith in God, people or anything.
> 
> My God _is_ Love. My God wants people to believe in Him and have the faith of a child. You are deny God's teachings because you do not have no Faith in Him or believe in his promises. You judge me and everyone. Christians are not allowed to do so. Christians are to be on mission, en Christo, and be in the Church community. You practice none of those things.
> 
> That isn't me judging you, but understanding you by your own words.


You are the exact opposite of what you say you are! Practice what you preach!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Lakes and Mos were having an intelligent conversation and you drop your mean bomb again. Please try to add something more substantive to the conversation if you can.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> Now that's a good quote!


Who is Dick Gregory?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:



> You are the exact opposite of what you say you are! Practice what you preach!


Stop judging - I don't preach, but I will pray.

_Father, I come to you to ask you to reach KnitterFromNebraska. Guide her and bring her into your arms and give her understanding, faith and the ability to open her ears, eyes and heart to You. I pray that you will comfort her and give her peace and the desire to follow you. I pray these things for her and all your children so they may come to know you. in Jesus name. Amen._


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Dah-link - sober up - my best contribution of the day.


Zsa Zsa, you're right. You're being taken to task by someone who hasn't yet posted a single message relevant to the topic but chooses instead to insult people who are a lot more thoughtful than she is. Not *one* message to show what she knows but umpteen messages to tell others they're wrong.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Of course only citizens should be allowed to vote, which is what goes on here, despite the fact that one political party likes to pretend that huge numbers of people vote fraudulently. People here illegally don't vote because they don't want their presence known.


Head in the sand comment! Non citizens ARE voting in this country!
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2014/03/19/fraud-local-nbc-investigation-discovers-dozens-of-illegal-voters-in-florida-n1811547


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> With all due respect, Nebraska, that's nonsense.


Not that you'll bother to read it, but...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1351222/posts


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> SQM said:
> 
> 
> > Actually God needs her to keep his job.
> ...


Don't you think God has a sense of humor? How would humans created in His image develop one if there wasn't one to begin with?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Stop judging - I don't preach, but I will pray.
> 
> _Father, I come to you to ask you to reach KnitterFromNebraska. Guide her and bring her into your arms and give her understand, faith and the ability to open her ears, eyes and heart to You. I pray that you will comfort her and give her peace and the desire to follow you. I pray these things for her and all your children so they may come to know you. in Jesus name. Amen._


HYPOCRITE!!!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Zsa Zsa, you're right. You're being taken to task by someone who hasn't yet posted a single message relevant to the topic but chooses instead to insult people who are a lot more thoughtful than she is. Not *one* message to show what she knows but umpteen messages to tell others they're wrong.


But she did pray! So that makes everything else OK. Doesn't it?!?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> The govt, like corporations, is made up of individuals. I have yet to read one post of yours that is positive on anything or anyone. You have no faith in God, people or anything.
> 
> My God _is_ Love. My God wants people to believe in Him and have the faith of a child. You deny God's teachings *because you do not have no Faith* in Him or believe in His promises. You judge me and everyone. Christians are not allowed to do so. Christians are to be on mission, en Christo, and be in the Church community. You practice none of those things.
> 
> That isn't me judging you, but understanding you by your own words.


Quoted to protect against editing.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Don't you think God has a sense of humor? How would humans created in His image develop one if there wasn't one to begin with?


I was intending to convey humor with the use of the word.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Quoted to protect against editing.


Ahahahahaha! Good one! Her words do seem to disappear. Then comes denial!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Who is Dick Gregory?


???*Who is Dick Gregory?*???


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Head in the sand comment! Non citizens ARE voting in this country!
> http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2014/03/19/fraud-local-nbc-investigation-discovers-dozens-of-illegal-voters-in-florida-n1811547


What you link to is not an unbiased source. It's there to prove "liberals" are wrong. Find an unbiased source that agrees, and I'll pay attention.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Not that you'll bother to read it, but...
> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1351222/posts


You're right; I won't waste my time reading anything from freerepublic.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> What you link to is not an unbiased source. It's there to prover "liberals" are wrong. Find an unbiased source that agrees, and I'll pay attention.


Can't prove a negative.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I was intending to convey humor with the use of the word.


Good for you. I'll have to pay more attention. A smiley or two might have conveyed it to the blind, like me.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You're right; I won't waste my time reading anything from freerepublic.


Just read the quotes. Ignore the rest. Liberal sites DO NOT quote the founding fathers. At least, none I've found. You read the quotes, and I'll keep looking.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Good for you. I'll have to pay more attention. A smiley or two might have conveyed it to the blind, like me.


Good point!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Can't prove a negative.


Isn't "liberals are wrong" a positive?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Just read the quotes. Ignore the rest. Liberal sites DO NOT quote the founding fathers. At least, none I've found. You read the quotes, and I'll keep looking.


I'm not asking for liberal sites, only unbiased ones. I've seen those quotes before, posted by you, in fact. But unless you can post everything the Founders ever said, there's no reason to think they didn't say the exact opposite at other times.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> But she did pray! So that makes everything else OK. Doesn't it?!?


Of course it does :twisted: :twisted: Except for the statement that she doesn't preach - that one is definitely not true.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I haven't found what I wanted yet. But I found a liberal site with this quote. I thought you'd like it.

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.,". Thomas Jefferson


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Isn't "liberals are wrong" a positive?


 :lol:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm not asking for liberal sites, only unbiased ones. I've seen those quotes before, posted by you, in fact. But unless you can post everything the Founders ever said, there's no reason to think they didn't say the exact opposite at other times.


There is no such thing as an unbiased site. I'll keep looking.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Of course it does :twisted: :twisted: Except for the statement that she doesn't preach - that one is definitely not true.


Nor does she judge! That's why I labeled her a hypocrite! Oh, sorry! I was judging again.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

I'm sure glad KFN quoted Poor Purl directly to protect against editing:



Poor Pur said:


> What you link to is not an unbiased source. It's there to * prover* "liberals" are wrong.


Idiotic - to suggest folks shouldn't take pride in their words and try to correct typos if noticed. But then again, why would I expect common sense from a Lib? I don't.

(Guess who brought up that stupid suggestion? Not me, but an imperfect Lib!)

Of course, I'll be told I'm the instigator of insults .... hilarious! :-D


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm sure glad KFN quoted Poor Purl directly to protect against editing:
> 
> Idiotic - to suggest folks shouldn't take pride in their words and try to correct typos if noticed. But then again, why would I expect common sense from a Lib? I don't.


Nasty and unnecessary mean bomb again.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> Nasty and unnecessary mean bomb again.


Perfect that you would blame me SQM! You're batting a 1000!

*LOOK* at Poor Purl's posts, who first did the insulting!

Your head is so stuck in the sand.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I haven't found what I wanted yet. But I found a liberal site with this quote. I thought you'd like it.
> 
> "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.,". Thomas Jefferson


YES! He was certainly prophetic. He also instituted laws to prevent corporations from becoming abusively powerful. Too bad they've been whittled down since his time.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Perfect that you would blame me SQM! You're batting a 1000!
> 
> *LOOK* at Poor Purl's posts, who first did the insulting!
> 
> Your head is so stuck in the sand.


PP adds substance to a conversation. She has a knowledge base. You add only unfriendly adjectives and put downs.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I haven't found what I wanted yet. But I found a liberal site with this quote. I thought you'd like it.
> 
> "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.,". Thomas Jefferson


KFN, that quote sends shivers up and down my spine.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> PP adds substance to a conversation. She has a knowledge base. You add only unfriendly adjectives and put downs.


SQM you really need to remove yourself from talking to the KP Libs.

Tell me specifically, what exactly PP added to the conversation by insulting me and requoting me for making a simple typo in my post which I would then correct if I noticed?

Answer: nothing. Which is exactly what you continue to gripe about. Only problem, is it is the LIBS, who continually do the very thing you and I both don't like (insulting without reason). The Libs do it and sometimes others respond.

If you want it to stop, have a conference call with your Lib buds and tell them. Otherwise, it will continue ad nauseam as it always has.

Haven't you noticed not many people are posting on the controv threads - guess why?


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm sure glad KFN quoted Poor Purl directly to protect against editing:
> 
> Idiotic - to suggest folks shouldn't take pride in their words and try to correct typos if noticed. But then again, why would I expect common sense from a Lib? I don't.
> 
> ...


Well, you have a certain reputation, and it does tend to precede you, whether said reputation is deserved or not.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm sure glad KFN quoted Poor Purl directly to protect against editing:
> 
> Idiotic - to suggest folks shouldn't take pride in their words and try to correct typos if noticed. But then again, why would I expect common sense from a Lib? I don't.
> 
> ...


Typos, sure. Correct them all. If your double-negative was a typo, I'll edit it out of my message. What I'm concerned about are the crazier things you edit out, like: "No matter what you throw at me, I am His and He is Mine" (referring to God? Jesus? the 2-in-1?).


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Gifts - why don't you be the one to set an example for the rest of us. 

Why would I want to remove myself from talking to the KP Libs? Then I would be talking to myself only. At best I would get a '.' from DP, but mostly no response, even tho I am very friendly there.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Typos, sure. Correct them all. If your double-negative was a typo, I'll edit it out of my message. What I'm concerned about are the crazier things you edit out, like: "No matter what you throw at me, I am His and He is Mine" (referring to God? Jesus? the 2-in-1?).


Riddle -

How does a 2-in-1 differ from an all-in-one?

A point will be awarded to the one with the wittiest answer.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> SQM you really need to remove yourself from talking to the KP Libs.
> 
> Tell me specifically, what exactly PP added to the conversation by insulting me and requoting me for making a single typo in my post which I would then correct if I noticed?
> 
> ...


You're right about that - I added nothing. But I have posted at least one message with substance, and that's one more than you have.

Gee, did I really say you were right? That's something nobody on the other side would say to any of us, even if proven to be very wrong.

Editing to answer another point: "Haven't you noticed not many people are posting on the controv threads - guess why?" If you're talking about the right, they don't have to, since they all have the same opinion, yours.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Typos, sure. Correct them all. If your double-negative was a typo, I'll edit it out of my message. What I'm concerned about are the crazier things you edit out, like: "No matter what you throw at me, I am His and He is Mine" (referring to God? Jesus? the 2-in-1?).


Maybe I've gone around the bend again, but I don't see the grammatical error in the sentence "No matter what you throw at me, I am His and He is Mine".


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> Riddle -
> 
> How does a 2-in-1 differ from an all-in-one?
> 
> A point will be awarded to the one with the wittiest answer.


Yes the two are very different. A 2-in-1 refers to a shared changing room facility at a small football oval. The home team and the away team have to share the same showers, toilets, etc.

Now, an all-in-one refers to that darling new type of garment that families share whilst sitting on the couch watching the tellie. All members of the family, plus visitors and guests, squeeze themselves into the one garment and sit in a huddled mess to watch the tellie. Whilst this garment with its cosiness factor does tend to reduce the heating bill in winter it does escalate the cost of the sofa. To accommodate the wearers of the all-in-one the sofa has to be extra, extra, extra strong and this type of sofa is extremely expensive.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Riddle -
> 
> How does a 2-in-1 differ from an all-in-one?
> 
> A point will be awarded to the one with the wittiest answer.


It doesn't. If there are only a certain number of choices such as 2-in-1, then those are all the choices and therefore interchangeable with all-in-one.

I'm babbling. Please help me and remark on what I've said really soon and put me out of my misery...


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes the two are very different. A 2-in-1 refers to a shared changing room facility at a small football oval. The home team and the away team have to share the same showers, toilets, etc.
> 
> Now, an all-in-one refers to that darling new type of garment that families share whilst sitting on the couch watching the tellie. All members of the family, plus visitors and guests, squeeze themselves into the one garment and 'sit in a huddled mess to watch the tellie. Whilst this garment with its cosiness factor does tend to reduce the heating bill in winter it does escalate the cost of the sofa. To accommodate the wearers of the all-in-one the sofa has to be extra, extra, extra strong and this type of sofa is extremely expensive.


Oh, Eve, I'm RAOTFLMAO. Thank you.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm sure glad KFN quoted Poor Purl directly to protect against editing:
> 
> Idiotic - to suggest folks shouldn't take pride in their words and try to correct typos if noticed. But then again, why would I expect common sense from a Lib? I don't.
> 
> ...


Of course. Full credit has to go to your familiars--that horde of bats fluttering about your head 24/7.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Of course. Full credit has to go to your familiars--that horde of bats fluttering about your head 24/7.


No, no. The bats are a belfry pest problem, dealt with by calling one's local bats-in-the-belfry pest control company.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Maybe I've gone around the bend again, but I don't see the grammatical error in the sentence "No matter what you throw at me, I am His and He is Mine".


It wasn't a grammatical error. At the very least, with "Mine" capitalized, it seems to put the author in a class with God.

But it uses the language of a teenage love song to speak about God, and there must have been something wrong because I can no longer find that message on KP.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes the two are very different. A 2-in-1 refers to a shared changing room facility at a small football oval. The home team and the away team have to share the same showers, toilets, etc.
> 
> Now, an all-in-one refers to that darling new type of garment that families share whilst sitting on the couch watching the tellie. All members of the family, plus visitors and guests, squeeze themselves into the one garment and sit in a huddled mess to watch the tellie. Whilst this garment with its cosiness factor does tend to reduce the heating bill in winter it does escalate the cost of the sofa. To accommodate the wearers of the all-in-one the sofa has to be extra, extra, extra strong and this type of sofa is extremely expensive.


This is hilarious and probably a bit unsanitary.

And not exactly what I meant. I meant the Father and the Son, but without the Holy Spirit. It's not a trinity, and I don't think you'd call it a couple, or even a pair.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> It doesn't. If there are only a certain number of choices such as 2-in-1, then those are all the choices and therefore interchangeable with all-in-one.
> 
> I'm babbling. Please help me and remark on what I've said really soon and put me out of my misery...


In set theory, you've said something significant.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Of course. Full credit has to go to your familiars--that horde of bats fluttering about your head 24/7.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> No, no. The bats are a belfry pest problem, dealt with by calling one's local bats-in-the-belfry pest control company.


Anyone to recommend? It'll be a difficult job as KPG has managed to wedge her head in the church steeple.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Anyone to recommend? It'll be a difficult job as KPG has managed to wedge her head in the church steeple.


I see you had a good night's sleep.

:XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> This is hilarious and probably a bit unsanitary.
> 
> And not exactly what I meant. I meant the Father and the Son, but without the Holy Spirit. It's not a trinity, and I don't think you'd call it a couple, or even a pair.


I know but I could not resist a little light hearted humour. No offence intended.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I know but I could not resist a little light hearted humour. No offence intended.


None taken. I loved it.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> What you link to is not an unbiased source. It's there to prove "liberals" are wrong. Find an unbiased source that agrees, and I'll pay attention.


Just a thought: why not tell KFN what you consider an unbiased source. This way, she won't waste her time posting sources you think are biased.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> It wasn't a grammatical error. At the very least, with "Mine" capitalized, it seems to put the author in a class with God.
> 
> But it uses the language of a teenage love song to speak about God, and there must have been something wrong because I can no longer find that message on KP.


Oooppppsss. I missed the capital "M" on "mine". It should not have been capitalized. There is a lot of that "teenage love song" element when people speak about God. Catholic girls of a certain age were encouraged to write what were essentially "mash notes" to Jesus to increase their love for Him and to some extent help them find out if they had a vocation to be nuns.

Old Protestant hymns are fraught with very romantic imagery about Jesus. Here's are the lyrics to the best example I can think of that shows this very, very clearly:

I will arise and go to Jesus
He will embrace me in His arms
In the arms of my dear Saviour
Oh, there are ten thousand charms

Teach me some melodious sonnet
Sung by flaming tongues on high
Praise the mount, oh, fix me on it
Mount of Thy redeeming love


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> In set theory, you've said something significant.


Far out! Now if I only knew what set theory was...


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Anyone to recommend? It'll be a difficult job as KPG has managed to wedge her head in the church steeple.


Look, I only defined the problem. KPG will have to look in the Yellow Pages that covers where she lives to find the necessary expert.:twisted: :twisted: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :twisted: :twisted: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> There is no such thing as an unbiased site. I'll keep looking.


Still looking! The liberal sites only want to talk about the separation clause of the First Ammenment and the Second Amendment. What a challenge! Here's a couple of links that may be considered unbiased???
http://www.john-adams-heritage.com/quotes/
http://politi-geek.com/2010/11/this-is-a-constitutional-republic-not-a-democracy/


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> YES! He was certainly prophetic. He also instituted laws to prevent corporations from becoming abusively powerful. Too bad they've been whittled down since his time.


Seems to me that everything's being whittled down, or redefined.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> KFN, that quote sends shivers up and down my spine.


Mine too! If only they'd listened!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> SQM you really need to remove yourself from talking to the KP Libs.
> 
> Tell me specifically, what exactly PP added to the conversation by insulting me and requoting me for making a simple typo in my post which I would then correct if I noticed?
> 
> ...


No, YOU "really need to remove yourself from talking to the KP libs"! If YOU want it to stop, go away! You cannot carry on a discussion with anyone with whom you disagree!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> No, no. The bats are a belfry pest problem, dealt with by calling one's local bats-in-the-belfry pest control company.


Do you have their number?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Oooppppsss. I missed the capital "M" on "mine". It should not have been capitalized. There is a lot of that "teenage love song" element when people speak about God. Catholic girls of a certain age were encouraged to write what were essentially "mash notes" to Jesus to increase their love for Him and to some extent help them find out if they had a vocation to be nuns.
> 
> Old Protestant hymns are fraught with very romantic imagery about Jesus. Here's are the lyrics to the best example I can think of that shows this very, very clearly:
> 
> ...


This wasn't banned in Boston? Flaming tongues? Mount of Thy redeeming love? "I am His and He is Mine" is nothing compared to those.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Just a thought: why not tell KFN what you consider an unbiased source. This way, she won't waste her time posting sources you think are biased.


It's a good thought. She has at times hit on some randomly, and I've always pointed out when she did, but I'll try to compile a list - with a little help from my friends, I hope.

Thanks for the advice.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Still looking! The liberal sites only want to talk about the separation clause of the First Ammenment and the Second Amendment. What a challenge! Here's a couple of links that may be considered unbiased???
> http://www.john-adams-heritage.com/quotes/
> http://politi-geek.com/2010/11/this-is-a-constitutional-republic-not-a-democracy/


The first looks fine - it has a diverse group of writers. The second is all the work of one man, Rich Rubino, about whom I know nothing. I'm skeptical when the title says the thing that I was hoping would be proved or disproved.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It's a good thought. She has at times hit on some randomly, and I've always pointed out when she did, but I'll try to compile a list - with a little help from my friends, I hope.
> 
> Thanks for the advice.


I know! But those sites don't seem to have any articles referencing the founders opinions on a republic vs a democracy. And I looked a lot! I did find this, however it seemed inadequate to what I was trying to show ie quotes.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/10/1177791/-Madison-Republic-Democracy-Factions#


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> That depends upon whether you think that "Universal Suffrage" extends the right to vote, to non citizens. I firmly believe that ONLY citizens should be allowed to vote!


In Australia, it's compulsory for all Australian citizens 18yrs and over to vote. Why is it not compulsory in the U.S?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> No one is able to have an intelligent conversation with Mos. Mos only posts BS trying to incite others. LTL was saying Mos was a bigot because Mos made a sweeping bigoted statement about men with beards. Then Mos posed a question about the USA electoral college in her attempt to draw people to respond to her.
> 
> When will you learn?
> 
> ...


And what do you think you're doing here? You've insulted four posters! You have absolutely no insight about yourself.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Dah-link - sober up - my best contribution of the day.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Poor attempt SQM - I don't drink. You can do better, please try.


How do we know you don't drink? We don't. Moot point.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> SQM you really need to remove yourself from talking to the KP Libs.
> 
> Tell me specifically, what exactly PP added to the conversation by insulting me and requoting me for making a simple typo in my post which I would then correct if I noticed?
> 
> ...


Ignore it. It will go away eventually.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> In Australia, it's compulsory for all Australian citizens 18yrs and over to vote. Why is it not compulsory in the U.S?


Interesting. What happens if they don't vote?

In the States, an assumption is made that if you belong to a specific group, you will vote a particular way. So it is sometimes in a parties' best interest to have people not vote. The Republicans are trying to make it very difficult for those who live in minority districts to vote as it is assumed they will vote Democratic. Plus by changing the districts every ten years (?) if a section is too filled with minorities, these boundaries are changed so that the favored candidate will have a greater chance of winning. (gerrymandering) All this is what makes the USA a great country.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> Interesting. What happens if they don't vote.
> 
> In the States, an assumption is made that if you belong to a specific group, you will vote a particular way. So it is sometimes in a parties' best interest to have people not vote. The Republicans are trying to make it very difficult for those who live in minority districts to vote as it is assumed they will vote Democratic. Plus by changing the districts every ten years (?) if a section is too filled with minorities, these boundaries are changed so that the favored candidate will have a greater chance of winning. (gerrymandering) All this is what makes the USA a great country.


It just doesn't seem right, does it SQ? I am proud not to be a member of that party.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Perfect that you would blame me SQM! You're batting a 1000!
> 
> *LOOK* at Poor Purl's posts, who first did the insulting!
> 
> Your head is so stuck in the sand.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> None taken. I loved it.


I thought it was great --


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm sure glad KFN quoted Poor Purl directly to protect against editing:
> 
> Idiotic - to suggest folks shouldn't take pride in their words and try to correct typos if noticed. But then again, why would I expect common sense from a Lib? I don't.
> 
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> In Australia, it's compulsory for all Australian citizens 18yrs and over to vote. Why is it not compulsory in the U.S?


Surely you jest. There were huge fights over making seat belts in cars compulsory, and over helmets for motorcycle riders. The fight over mandatory medical insurance is still being fought. These are just 3 examples, and in each case what was mandated was a life-saving measure.

Compulsory voting? Puh-lease.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Interesting. What happens if they don't vote?
> 
> In the States, an assumption is made that if you belong to a specific group, you will vote a particular way. So it is sometimes in a parties' best interest to have people not vote. The Republicans are trying to make it very difficult for those who live in minority districts to vote as it is assumed they will vote Democratic. Plus by changing the districts every ten years (?) if a section is too filled with minorities, these boundaries are changed so that the favored candidate will have a greater chance of winning. (gerrymandering) All this is what makes the USA a great country.


If you are an eligible voter and you don't vote, a fine is issued unless you can give a reasonable explanation. If you refuse to pay the fine, the matter can be referred to a magistrate. There are consequences for a variety of electoral offences and some of them are severe:

http://www.aec.gov.au/elections/australian_electoral_system/electoral_procedures/Electoral_Offences.htm

As for the rest of your post, am I dumb to assume it's not at all fair or is this reasonable?


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Surely you jest. There were huge fights over making seat belts in cars compulsory, and over helmets for motorcycle riders. The fight over mandatory medical insurance is still being fought. These are just 3 examples, and in each case what was mandated was a life-saving measure.
> 
> Compulsory voting? Puh-lease.


In Australia we taking our voting rights very seriously. Yes, voting is compulsory. I will post some information from the Australian Electoral Commission, if you would like to read more.

http://www.aec.gov.au/voting/

Compulsory voting
Compulsory voting means that every eligible Australian citizen (18 years or older) is required by law to enrol and vote. If a person does not vote and is unable to provide a 'valid and sufficient' reason, a penalty is imposed. Compulsory voting is a distinctive feature of the Australian political culture.
All Australians who are eligible to vote elect people to represent them in the two houses of Parliament  the Senate and the House of Representatives.
History of compulsory voting in Australia
	Compulsory enrolment for federal elections was introduced in 1912
	Compulsory voting for state elections was introduced in Queensland in 1915
	Compulsory voting at federal elections was introduced in 1924.

http://www.aec.gov.au/faqs/voting_australia.htm

Voting
Is voting compulsory?
Yes, under federal electoral law, it is compulsory for all eligible Australian citizens to enrol and vote in federal elections, by-elections and referendums.
For further information see Compulsory Voting.
What happens if I do not vote?
After each election, the AEC will send a letter to all apparent non-voters requesting that they either provide a valid and sufficient reason for failing to vote or pay a $20 penalty.
If, within the time period specified on the notice, you fail to reply, cannot provide a valid and sufficient reason or decline to pay the $20 penalty, then the matter may be referred to a court. If the matter is dealt with in court and you are found guilty, you may be fined up to $170 plus court costs and a criminal conviction may be recorded against you.
Why did I receive an apparent failure to vote notice?
You will receive a letter from the Australian Electoral Commission if according to our records you did not vote at a federal election. If you did vote, you should respond to the letter before the due date.
What is a valid and sufficient reason for not voting?
It is at the discretion of the Divisional Returning Officer for each electorate to determine what is a valid and sufficient reason for not voting.
See Electoral backgrounder  compulsory voting


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> In Australia, it's compulsory for all Australian citizens 18yrs and over to vote. Why is it not compulsory in the U.S?


Wow! I'm surprised! I don't know why its not compulsory. How do they make sure illegal aliens don't vote in Australia?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> In Australia we taking our voting rights very seriously. Yes, voting is compulsory. I will post some information from the Australian Electoral Commission, if you would like to read more.
> 
> http://www.aec.gov.au/voting/
> 
> ...


It's been compulsory for a long time. Do you have any idea what in Australia's history was going on a century ago that made it necessary?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Surely you jest. There were huge fights over making seat belts in cars compulsory, and over helmets for motorcycle riders. The fight over mandatory medical insurance is still being fought. These are just 3 examples, and in each case what was mandated was a life-saving measure.
> 
> Compulsory voting? Puh-lease.


Individual rights, Purl. People have the right to be stupid.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> If you are an eligible voter and you don't vote, a fine is issued unless you can give a reasonable explanation. If you refuse to pay the fine, the matter can be referred to a magistrate. There are consequences for a variety of electoral offences and some of them are severe:
> 
> http://www.aec.gov.au/elections/australian_electoral_system/electoral_procedures/Electoral_Offences.htm
> 
> As for the rest of your post, am I dumb to assume it's not at all fair or is this reasonable?


"As for the rest"? Its not wholly true. The Republicans want people to have to show identification, so that non citizens can't vote. The democrats claim that poor, black people cant get ID. It's absolutely false! You need an ID for everything, these days. Are non citizens allowed to vote in Australia?

Gerrymandering is often done, but for political reasons, not racial ones. We just got caught up in the gerrymandering a couple of years ago. We got moved to a new district. I hate it. Gerrymandering should be stopped!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

This just in. Head of Australia's version of the CIA, ASIO is considering raising Australia's terror threat level from medium to high due to the vast numbers of people leaving to fight in Syria and Iraq and of those, 20 have returned to Australia:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-09/asio-seriously-considering-raising-australia27s-terror-threat-/5731800


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

"Gerrymandering is often done, but for political reasons, not racial ones."

"BS" says the Sloth, articulately.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Wow! I'm surprised! I don't know why its not compulsory. How do they make sure illegal aliens don't vote in Australia?


To enrol for the first time or get back on the roll, you can enrol online.
You will need to provide evidence of your identity. You can use your driver's licence, Australian passport number or have someone who is enrolled confirm your identity.
It is compulsory by law for all eligible Australian citizens to enrol and vote in federal elections, by-elections and referendums.
You are eligible to enrol if you:
	are an Australian citizen, or eligible British subject,
	aged 18 years and over, and
	have lived at your address for at least one month.
If you are 16 or 17 you can enrol now so when you turn 18 you'll be able to vote.
British Subjects Eligibility
Updated: 5 May 2014
Why are some British subjects allowed to be on the electoral roll?
There are British subjects living permanently in Australia, who are not Australian citizens, who are eligible to vote in federal elections and referendums.
Under section 93(1)(b)(ii) of the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918, British subjects, who were enrolled for a federal electoral division in Australia immediately before 26 January 1984, are eligible to enrol and vote at federal elections and referendums. Section 4 of the Referendum (Machinery Provisions) Act 1984 also provides that electors who are entitled to vote at an election are entitled to vote at a referendum.
Prior to 1984
Eligibility to enrol and vote prior to 1984 was based on a combination of British subject status and a minimum Australian residence qualification of six months. In 1981, the Parliament passed legislative amendments changing the federal franchise qualifications. It was the view of all political parties and governments, state and federal, that Australian citizenship is the appropriate basis for the franchise. Parliaments in all states soon passed complementary legislation.
When the franchise qualifications were changed to require Australian citizenship, it was considered unfair to disenfranchise British subjects who were already enrolled and entitled to vote. Consequently, British subjects who were already enrolled at the date of transition were able to retain their franchise.
Is it compulsory?
Yes, it is compulsory for British subjects who were enrolled for a federal electoral division in Australia immediately before 26 January 1984, to enrol to vote, even if following 25 January 1984 they have let their enrolment lapse. British subjects not on the roll immediately before 26 January 1984 are not eligible to enrol even if they were resident in Australia at that time.
Over time, the number of British subjects enrolled for a federal electoral division in Australia prior to 26 January 1984 is gradually diminishing.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Wow! I'm surprised! I don't know why its not compulsory. How do they make sure illegal aliens don't vote in Australia?


Electoral registration laws are extremely strict. Anyone who is not an Australian citizen cannot get their name on the electoral roll. If they turn up to vote and their name is not on the roll they are refused.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> "Gerrymandering is often done, but for political reasons, not racial ones."
> 
> "BS" says the Sloth, articulately.


I think it's a little of both.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It's been compulsory for a long time. Do you have any idea what in Australia's history was going on a century ago that made it necessary?


Australia has only existed as the Commonwealth of Australia since 1901. Prior to that we were a British Colony.

Compulsory voting
Australia enforces compulsory voting. Compulsory voting at referendums was considered when a referendum was proposed in 1915, but, as the referendum was never held, the idea was put on hold.
The immediate impetus for compulsory voting at the federal level was the low voter turnout (59.38 percent) at the 1922 federal election. However, compulsory voting was not on the platform of either the Stanley Bruce-led Nationalist/Country party coalition government or the Matthew Charlton-led Labor opposition. The actual initiative for change was made by Herbert Payne, a backbench Tasmanian senator from the Nationalists who introduced a private member's bill in the Senate, the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1924, on 16 July 1924. Senator Payne's bill was passed with little debate (the House of Representatives agreeing to it in less than an hour), and in neither house was a division required, hence no votes were recorded against the bill. It received Royal Assent on 31 July 1924. The 1925 federal election was the first to be held under compulsory voting; the turnout figure climbed to 91.4 per cent, an increase of 32 percentage points on the previous election.

A citizen can only vote when enrolled. Enrolling to vote is mandatory. Failure to enroll can incur a fine. However, citizens who later enroll themselves are protected from prosecution for not enrolling in the previous years by section 101(7) of the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918. In New South Wales, this situation has been somewhat modified by the NSW Electoral Commission's "Smart Roll" system. Introduced in 2009, the system draws information from various government departmental sources and enrolls eligible electors automatically on to the state roll, but not the federal roll. A protection in Section 101 exists for offences prior to enrolment (including failure to enroll) for those enrolled in such a way by the Electoral Commissioner.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> "Gerrymandering is often done, but for political reasons, not racial ones."
> 
> "BS" says the Sloth, articulately.


Do you think I'm lying? We just got changed a couple of years ago from Fortenberry to Terry. It's a white area and both congressmen are white. The conservative base was moving further west. They had to correct that or risk losing a congressman. Yes! Black areas get changed as well, but it's because of how they vote, rather than their skin color. And it's not limited to black areas!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> To enrol for the first time or get back on the roll, you can enrol online.
> You will need to provide evidence of your identity. You can use your driver's licence, Australian passport number or have someone who is enrolled confirm your identity.
> It is compulsory by law for all eligible Australian citizens to enrol and vote in federal elections, by-elections and referendums.
> You are eligible to enrol if you:
> ...


Gee! You have to show ID? Do people say you're racist? Here, the dems accuse the reps of being racist because they want people to prove, they are who they say they are.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Electoral registration laws are extremely strict. Anyone who is not an Australian citizen cannot get their name on the electoral roll. If they turn up to vote and their name is not on the roll they are refused.


Absolutely anybody can register to vote here. And they do! The libs on kp, deny that illegal aliens vote but here's an investigative report, done by a news station on a liberal network, NBC.

http://www.nbc-2.com/story/16662854/2012/02/02/nbc2-investigates-voter-fraud


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Australia has only existed as the Commonwealth of Australia since 1901. Prior to that we were a British Colony.
> 
> Compulsory voting
> Australia enforces compulsory voting. Compulsory voting at referendums was considered when a referendum was proposed in 1915, but, as the referendum was never held, the idea was put on hold.
> ...


Thanks to you and Wombat, for sharing! It's all very interesting.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Absolutely anybody can register to vote here. And they do! The libs on kp, deny that illegal aliens vote but here's an investigative report, done by a news station on a liberal network, NBC.
> 
> http://www.nbc-2.com/story/16662854/2012/02/02/nbc2-investigates-voter-fraud


I wouldn't say we deny it, KFN, but think that it isn't as large a problem as the media makes it out to be. Now if that investigative report named hundreds or thousands, I would be very concerned. It is wrong for even 1 to commit voter fraud. On the other hand, if someone registered these people to vote knowing that they are not naturalized yet, then they should be arrested for it.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Gee! You have to show ID? Do people say you're racist? Here, the dems accuse the reps of being racist because they want people to prove, they are who they say they are.


I wouldn't go that far as to say it's a racial matter as it is a matter of consideration for the very elderly who have no birth certs to show in order to get an ID. In some parts of this country, births were not registered with the state into the early 1900's. The very poor were born at home.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I wouldn't say we deny it, KFN, but think that it isn't as large a problem as the media makes it out to be. Now if that investigative report named hundreds or thousands, I would be very concerned. It is wrong for even 1 to commit voter fraud. On the other hand, if someone registered these people to vote knowing that they are not naturalized yet, then they should be arrested for it.


But all they did was compare people who refused jury duty because they weren't citizens, to the voting records. They found nearly 100. So, how many were not called to jury duty? This was only one county. Sometimes 100 votes makes a difference, especially if it's multiplied over several counties. We should be concerned if even one vote is counted, that shouldn't be.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Do you think I'm lying? We just got changed a couple of years ago from Fortenberry to Terry. It's a white area and both congressmen are white. The conservative base was moving further west. They had to correct that or risk losing a congressman. Yes! Black areas get changed as well, but it's because of how they vote, rather than their skin color. And it's not limited to black areas!


It is not the skin color but the way minorities vote that is the issue. So yes I guess race and politics are mixed together.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I wouldn't go that far as to say it's a racial matter as it is a matter of consideration for the very elderly who have no birth certs to show in order to get an ID. In some parts of this country, births were not registered with the state into the early 1900's. The very poor were born at home.


So, why don't we seek exemptions for those elderly, instead of allowing illegal aliens to vote?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I wouldn't go that far as to say it's a racial matter as it is a matter of consideration for the very elderly who have no birth certs to show in order to get an ID. In some parts of this country, births were not registered with the state into the early 1900's. The very poor were born at home.


Yes, and it's not just the elderly who lack proper ID. 10% of American citizens don't have access to an up-to-date piece of photo ID. Yes, some of these folks have never had a drivers license or a credit card in their lives, but the rest have temporarily misplaced their ID, forgotten to fill out a change of address form at the DMV, or simply failed to notice that the card expired on their last birthday.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So, why don't we seek exemptions for those elderly, instead of allowing illegal aliens to vote?


Great idea! But do we have representatives that will listen to us? I know I don't.
In some states some non naturalized immigrants were granted drivers licenses. I wonder if that isn't how they got called to jury duty. Most have green cards to work. I can tell you that it takes years here to cut through all of the red tape to actually attain their citizenship. It took a former co worker of mine 10 years! He was here as a Bosnian refugee. 
I know you are referring to the ones who have crossed our border illegally.
More investigation should be done on a city or county basis to make sure everyone is on the up and up.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> It is not the skin color but the way minorities vote that is the issue. So yes I guess race and politics are mixed together.


Gerrymandering serves the interests of whichever party is in power. While it may have the appearance of being a racial issue, I can assure you, if minorities voted for the party in power (republican or democrat), gerrymandering wouldn't be an issue at all. Don't know if it's true, but I read once that Iowa was the only state that didn't have gerrymandering.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Yes, and it's not just the elderly who lack proper ID. 10% of American citizens don't have access to an up-to-date piece of photo ID. Yes, some of these folks have never had a drivers license or a credit card in their lives, but the rest have temporarily misplaced their ID, forgotten to fill out a change of address form at the DMV, or simply failed to notice that the card expired on their last birthday.


Why do ID cards expire anyway? I think they should be valid until the person expires.

(I know, unfortunately our facial features change with time  )


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Gerrymandering serves the interests of whichever party is in power. While it may have the appearance of being a racial issue, I can assure you, if minorities voted for the party in power (republican or democrat), gerrymandering wouldn't be an issue at all. Don't know if it's true, but I read once that Iowa was the only state that didn't have gerrymandering.


I know last year we went through a "redistricting". I still got stuck with Bachmann


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Off topic but I am too tired to research - what does 25 mm needles equal to in the American sizing system? Big thanks.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> Off topic but I am too tired to research - what does 25 mm needles equal to in the American sizing system? Big thanks.


Size 50, isn't it? That's huge!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Size 50, isn't it? That's huge!


I tried knitting with them and couldn't finish the project. My hands were so sore.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Size 50, isn't it? That's huge!


yeah it is. I am looking for my 35s and I found them. Thanks for answering and I will give you a point tonight for doing a nice favor. Also Ms. Eve gets a point for trying to make a connection between 2 in 1 and all in 1 and she was very funny.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> I tried knitting with them and couldn't finish the project. My hands were so sore.


Lift weights. You are a younger woman - you should be able to use them. Actually the trick is to stabilize both needles somehow and the rest is easy. I am using some discontinued but great Boulder yarn to make a fast muffler.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> yeah it is. I am looking for my 35s and I found them. Thanks for answering and I will give you a point tonight for doing a nice favor. Also Ms. Eve gets a point for trying to make a connection between 2 in 1 and all in 1 and she was very funny.


Yes, she was. That one had me totally stumped.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Great idea! But do we have representatives that will listen to us? I know I don't.
> In some states some non naturalized immigrants were granted drivers licenses. I wonder if that isn't how they got called to jury duty. Most have green cards to work. I can tell you that it takes years here to cut through all of the red tape to actually attain their citizenship. It took a former co worker of mine 10 years! He was here as a Bosnian refugee.
> I know you are referring to the ones who have crossed our border illegally.
> More investigation should be done on a city or county basis to make sure everyone is on the up and up.


Jurors are usually chosen from voter registration lists. Occasionally if they can't get enough jurors, they will select from lists of those issued driver's licenses. However they were chosen for jury duty is irrelevant. On the jury duty forms, they stated they were not legal citizens but voter records showed that they were not only registered to vote, but had actually voted.

I know that people go through a lot to become citizens. But if if were quick and easy, how many terrorists would be signing up?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Why do ID cards expire anyway? I think they should be valid until the person expires.
> 
> (I know, unfortunately our facial features change with time  )


I agree! Once you reach a certain age, your features aren't going to change that much. Perhaps every ten years?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree! Once you reach a certain age, your features aren't going to change that much. Perhaps every ten years?


Works for me! :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I know last year we went through a "redistricting". I still got stuck with Bachmann


I guess I don't have to ask which party was in power. :XD:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Off topic but I am too tired to research - what does 25 mm needles equal to in the American sizing system? Big thanks.


What are you knitting?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Lift weights. You are a younger woman - you should be able to use them. Actually the trick is to stabilize both needles somehow and the rest is easy. I am using some discontinued but great Boulder yarn to make a fast muffler.


Oh, sorry. I should have read faster.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Jurors are usually chosen from voter registration lists. Occasionally if they can't get enough jurors, they will select from lists of those issued driver's licenses. However they were chosen for jury duty is irrelevant. On the jury duty forms, they stated they were not legal citizens but voter records showed that they were not only registered to vote, but had actually voted.
> 
> I know that people go through a lot to become citizens. But if if were quick and easy, how many terrorists would be signing up?


I agree that it's a complicated process--so why would they even bother when there are hundreds of native-born wackos with American passports ready to blow themselves to bits for their jihad? It's like the conservatives fretting over the possibility of terrorists sneaking in across the Mexican border. Won't flying in on a 747 be a lot more comfortable? If they're organized and intelligent enough to do us major harm then they have the smarts to handle the paperwork and come here through perfectly legal channels.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree that it's a complicated process--so why would they even bother when there are hundreds of native-born wackos with American passports ready to blow themselves to bits for their jihad? It's like the conservatives fretting over the possibility of terrorists sneaking in across the Mexican border. Won't flying in on a 747 be a lot more comfortable? If they're organized and intelligent enough to do us major harm then they have the smarts to handle the paperwork and come here through perfectly legal channels.


I think either is a legitimate concern.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

It seems that the terrorists of 9/11 did just that, Susan. They even partied in Vegas a few days before the attack. 
No, these terrorists are not coming in as hungry and frightened kids in Latino disguise. They keep themselves obvious just like any other normal person would. That's the scary part. You don't know who in the hell they are!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Individual rights, Purl. People have the right to be stupid.


I don't recall seeing that one in the Bill of Rights. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I don't recall seeing that one in the Bill of Rights. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Do you think I'm lying? We just got changed a couple of years ago from Fortenberry to Terry. It's a white area and both congressmen are white. The conservative base was moving further west. They had to correct that or risk losing a congressman. Yes! Black areas get changed as well, but it's because of how they vote, rather than their skin color. And it's not limited to black areas!


I agree with you on this.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Gee! You have to show ID? Do people say you're racist? Here, the dems accuse the reps of being racist because they want people to prove, they are who they say they are.


It's not as simple as that, and I suspect you know it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Absolutely anybody can register to vote here. And they do! The libs on kp, deny that illegal aliens vote but here's an investigative report, done by a news station on a liberal network, NBC.
> 
> http://www.nbc-2.com/story/16662854/2012/02/02/nbc2-investigates-voter-fraud


1. NBC isn't a liberal network. MSNBC, a cable station, may be called liberal, but that's only because the money people realized there's money to be made from liberals, not just cons.

2. I'm certain there are some non-citizens voting, but are they here illegally? People are here legally on all kinds of visas, but you mentioned illegal aliens, not legal ones.

3. And, more important, what is the percentage of illegal voting? If NBC found 100 people in Florida, or wherever, that makes 100/8,000,000+, or less than 0.00125%. Even if there were 1,000, that would still be a minuscule percentage.

Here's something from the Washington Post: *A comprehensive investigation of voter impersonation finds 31 credible incidents out of one billion ballots cast*

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/08/06/a-comprehensive-investigation-of-voter-impersonation-finds-31-credible-incidents-out-of-one-billion-ballots-cast/

It's an interesting article and might show you why some states' ID requirements are unfair - and useless because they don't prevent the worst kind of voter fraud.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Gee! You have to show ID? Do people say you're racist? Here, the dems accuse the reps of being racist because they want people to prove, they are who they say they are.


We have to show ID for many, many things in Australia. You cannot open a Bank account without ID and your tax file number. A little frustrating at times but it is just life. We are introducing an ID card for people who do not have a driver's licence, which carries our photo and is used for ID purposes. I guess we are just used to the phrase "do you have any ID?" it really is no big deal.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> But all they did was compare people who refused jury duty because they weren't citizens, to the voting records. They found nearly 100. So, how many were not called to jury duty? This was only one county. Sometimes 100 votes makes a difference, especially if it's multiplied over several counties. We should be concerned if even one vote is counted, that shouldn't be.


A more serious type of fraud is one person voting in several counties, with the same name. How would those ID's prevent that from happening?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Yes, and it's not just the elderly who lack proper ID. 10% of American citizens don't have access to an up-to-date piece of photo ID. Yes, some of these folks have never had a drivers license or a credit card in their lives, but the rest have temporarily misplaced their ID, forgotten to fill out a change of address form at the DMV, or simply failed to notice that the card expired on their last birthday.


Thank you once again, Susan.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I wouldn't go that far as to say it's a racial matter as it is a matter of consideration for the very elderly who have no birth certs to show in order to get an ID. In some parts of this country, births were not registered with the state into the early 1900's. The very poor were born at home.


Compulsory registration of births, deaths and marriages started in Western Australia in September 1841, I am not sure when the compulsory registration began in other states. Unfortunately, in the early 1900s not all births were registered. My father was born in 1901 and his mother did not register his birth, I am not sure if his siblings were registered. It has caused so much trouble over the years as he had to produce his birth certificate on so many occasions and he did not have one. Nowadays the hospitals register the babies for the mothers and children need a birth certificate to attend school. I would say that there are very few Australian people alive today who do not have a birth certificate.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> 1. NBC isn't a liberal network. MSNBC, a cable station, may be called liberal, but that's only because the money people realized there's money to be made from liberals, not just cons.
> 
> 2. I'm certain there are some non-citizens voting, but are they here illegally? People are here legally on all kinds of visas, but you mentioned illegal aliens, not legal ones.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Here in the States some proof for ID is difficult for people to obtain. For example, once upon a time in certain areas, people were born at home without a physician. Birth certificate?



EveMCooke said:


> We have to show ID for many, many things in Australia. You cannot open a Bank account without ID and your tax file number. A little frustrating at times but it is just life. We are introducing an ID card for people who do not have a driver's licence, which carries our photo and is used for ID purposes. I guess we are just used to the phrase "do you have any ID?" it really is no big deal.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> Here in the States some proof for ID is difficult for people to obtain. For example, once upon a time in certain areas, people were born at home without a physician. Birth certificate?


WA now has a new photo ID card, details below. I believe there are moves to introduce this Australia wide in the not too distant future. Just one small thing, Troy Buswell is no longer our State Minister for Transport, he resigned. You might like to google Troy Buswell to see some of his shenanigans.

New WA Photo Card helps prove identity
Thursday, 12 September 2013 
	WA Photo Card will give West Australians new option to verify their identity
	Voluntary card will assist people who do not hold a drivers licence
	Card includes security features and available to people aged 16 and older
West Australians will soon have access to the new WA Photo Card as an option to verify their identity.

Transport Minister Troy Buswell said the voluntary proof of identity card would help people who dont hold a drivers licence or passport.

Mr Buswell said the WA Photo Card would hold the same level of integrity as a drivers licence and would be recognised by the Department of Transport as a primary form of photographic identification.

The Minister said the card would replace the current Proof of Age card and would be available to people aged 16 years and older.

It will hold a number of security features including a unique identification number to prevent fraud and identity crime.

The WA Photo Card will particularly benefit seniors and people with disability who do not hold a drivers licence or a passport, and cardholders can use it for domestic air travel and establishing financial accounts, Mr Buswell said.

Drivers licences and passports are two of the primary photographic documents used to verify a persons identity and if you dont own one of these, your options for photographic identification are limited.

Seniors and Volunteering Minister Tony Simpson said the card was vital for seniors, who no longer needed a drivers licence or passport, or had never driven, to provide identification details.

Older community members often tell us about having difficulty accessing goods and services in the community due to stringent rules about proving their identity, Mr Simpson said.

Disability Services Minister Helen Morton said the disability sector had been advocating for such a card and the Liberal National Government had listened and taken action.

Mr Buswell said WA Photo Card holders would have the option of including their address on the card.

The card will be available from the Department of Transports Driver and Vehicle Services Centres for an approximate fee of $35.20. The fee was set on a cost recovery basis, including photographs taken at the centres. WA Photo Cards will be valid for five years.

Mr Buswell said the WA Photo Card Bill was expected to be introduced into State Parliament later this year and the card would be available to the public in early 2014.

Fact File
	Approval has been granted to print legislation to enact the WA Photo Card
	The WA Photo Card will replace the Proof of Age Card issued under the Liquor Control Act 1988 through DVS centres and agents
Transport Ministers office - 6552 6400


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

I have to wonder why 'illegal aliens' would want/try to vote at all. If they're in the country illegally one would think they'd be keeping a very low profile.

A lot of people come to Australia on holiday visas and then disappear into occupations,(where their remuneration benefits their 'minders' more than they benefit them), holed up in apartments/houses where their every 'outside need' is taken care of. They're provided false working visas and in some cases false passports. Why on earth would their 'minders' risk exposure by encouraging them to vote?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I have to wonder why 'illegal aliens' would want/try to vote at all. If they're in the country illegally one would think they'd be keeping a very low profile.
> 
> A lot of people come to Australia on holiday visas and then disappear into occupations,(where their remuneration benefits their 'minders' more than they benefit them), holed up in apartments/houses where their every 'outside need' is taken care of. They're provided false working visas and in some cases false passports. Why on earth would their 'minders' risk exposure by encouraging them to vote?


Beats me. In the US, undocumented aliens are most afraid of one thing: being deported. There's so little advantage gained from casting a vote, I can't imagine any would do it.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

damemary said:


> Here in the States some proof for ID is difficult for people to obtain. For example, once upon a time in certain areas, people were born at home without a physician. Birth certificate?


Your key phrase is once upon a time. I believe there should be a mandatory a photo ID for voting. Just because it is difficult for a few, does not mean it is impossible. A few years ago a few states offered to give them out for free and pick people up to get it made, and no one took them up on it. Voting areas are 'soft targets' for terrorists, so you should be required to prove you have the right to be there and who you are for National Security reasons.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Beats me. In the US, undocumented aliens are most afraid of one thing: being deported. There's so little advantage gained from casting a vote, I can't imagine any would do it.


Is there any basis to claims that undocumented aliens have voted?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Anyway, there's a news story here, probably the first of many (I hope), where a 21 year old male has been caught preparing for fighting in Syria and recruiting others to do the same:

http://www.9news.com.au/National/2014/09/10/12/35/afp-raid-islamic-bookstore


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Yes, and it's not just the elderly who lack proper ID. 10% of American citizens don't have access to an up-to-date piece of photo ID. Yes, some of these folks have never had a drivers license or a credit card in their lives, but the rest have temporarily misplaced their ID, forgotten to fill out a change of address form at the DMV, or simply failed to notice that the card expired on their last birthday.


So then they have to accept the consequences for their errors and not be allowed to vote.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I have to wonder why 'illegal aliens' would want/try to vote at all. If they're in the country illegally one would think they'd be keeping a very low profile.
> 
> A lot of people come to Australia on holiday visas and then disappear into occupations,(where their remuneration benefits their 'minders' more than they benefit them), holed up in apartments/houses where their every 'outside need' is taken care of. They're provided false working visas and in some cases false passports. Why on earth would their 'minders' risk exposure by encouraging them to vote?


At one stage it was said that there were more 'illegal immigrants' in Australia who had arrived here by Air and overstayed their visa than there were who arrived on the people smuggler boats. We do not hear a lot about them though.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Anyway, there's a news story here, probably the first of many (I hope), where a 21 year old male has been caught preparing for fighting in Syria and recruiting others to do the same:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/National/2014/09/10/12/35/afp-raid-islamic-bookstore


I saw that on the PC a few seconds ago.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I saw that on the PC a few seconds ago.


There has been a 'cell' discovered here in Calgary. 3 of our young men have joined the terrorists and have been killed. There was a group here meeting in one of the apartment buildings.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> So then they have to accept the consequences for their errors and not be allowed to vote.


More than a little harsh to disenfranchise someone who does not have access to an up-to-date piece of photo ID, have never had a drivers license or a credit card in their lives or who have temporarily misplaced their ID, forgotten to fill out a change of address form at the DMV, or simply failed to notice that the card expired on their last birthday. At least with the Australian system they only need the ID once, when they enroll to vote. They do not have to produce ID when they go to the polling booth on election day.

In Australia we even allow prisoners in gaol to vote if their sentence is longer than three years.



> If you are serving a full-time prison sentence of less than three years you can vote in federal elections.
> 
> If your sentence is three years or longer, you can remain on the roll but you are not entitled to vote until you are released from prison.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> So then they have to accept the consequences for their errors and not be allowed to vote.


The point is that, if this truly is an effort to disenfranchise as many Americans as possible, the definition of what constitutes "proper ID" is going to grow increasingly persnickety. We've already seen that happen in states like Arizona--in 2004 a valid photo ID was deemed insufficient and proof of citizenship in the form of a passport or birth certificate was then demanded. Fortunately this piece of nonsense (Proposition 200) was tossed out by the Supreme Court, but it's stunts like these that make the issue such a touchy one.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Well said.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Australia has only existed as the Commonwealth of Australia since 1901. Prior to that we were a British Colony.
> 
> Compulsory voting
> Australia enforces compulsory voting. Compulsory voting at referendums was considered when a referendum was proposed in 1915, but, as the referendum was never held, the idea was put on hold.
> ...


What immediately caught my eye was that a 69.38% was considered low enough to contribute to make voting compulsory in Australia. For a long


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Australia has only existed as the Commonwealth of Australia since 1901. Prior to that we were a British Colony.
> 
> Compulsory voting
> Australia enforces compulsory voting. Compulsory voting at referendums was considered when a referendum was proposed in 1915, but, as the referendum was never held, the idea was put on hold.
> ...


What immediately caught my eye was that a 69.38% was considered low enough to contribute to make voting compulsory in Australia. For a long that's been considered a high turn out in the US. I'd like to see compulsory voting here.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I have to wonder why 'illegal aliens' would want/try to vote at all. If they're in the country illegally one would think they'd be keeping a very low profile.
> 
> A lot of people come to Australia on holiday visas and then disappear into occupations,(where their remuneration benefits their 'minders' more than they benefit them), holed up in apartments/houses where their every 'outside need' is taken care of. They're provided false working visas and in some cases false passports. Why on earth would their 'minders' risk exposure by encouraging them to vote?


Your question is a good one. However, there isn't an illegal immigrant voting problem in the USA. Illegal immigrants do tend to stay away from voting, they don't come to America to vote, they come to earn money for their families and themselves and to get registered on the American entitlement programs.

They receive both state and federal funds and benefits, free health care, free educations, free food, free shelter, free clothing, all the rights and privileges of citizens, jobs (without paying income taxes), income tax reimbursements even though they haven't paid any income taxes, etc. all while sucking off the teet of working, legal, taxpaying Americans. Because illegal immigrants will work for less wages than Americans, they also take jobs from Americans while driving down wages; a simple supply/demand equation.

The Dems don't want ID checks for voting because then they cannot pay Americans, whether registered voters or not, to go from voting place to voting place and cast one or multiple votes. If the voting place doesn't mandate an ID before voting, anyone can go from place to place and cast votes.

I wrote three days ago regarding the 60,000+ illegal immigrants (a majority of children) about coming into America. As I said, its isn't about those particular illegals voting or attempting to vote, which would be another illegal act committed by them, it is about the Democratic National Party wanting to increase tax revenue and taxes on Americans.



knitpresentgifts said:


> "I don't believe 0 wants them for votes, they are mostly kids who cannot vote yet (although the Dems will be insisting on their votes and of their families in the future). I believe the Dems are allowing the 60,000+ in to overwhelm our entitlement programs, schools, housing, law enforcements etc., so much so that taxes will have to be raised on anyone still paying taxes. You know, the Dem's dream and number one priority.
> 
> It is about socialism being the American way and also the Dems way. It won't work, never has, and will destroy America."


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Is there any basis to claims that undocumented aliens have voted?


No - that isn't the problem or concern.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> So then they have to accept the consequences for their errors and not be allowed to vote.


Sayeth you. Is that a decree from on 'high?'


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

KPG:

"Your question is a good one. However, there isn't an illegal immigrant voting problem in the USA. Illegal immigrants do tend to stay away from voting, they don't come to America to vote, they come to earn money for their families and themselves and to get registered on the American entitlement programs. 

They receive both state and federal funds and benefits, free health care, free educations, free food, free shelter, free clothing, all the rights and privileges of citizens, jobs (without paying income taxes), income tax reimbursements even though they haven't paid any income taxes, etc. all while sucking off the teet of working, legal, taxpaying Americans. Because illegal immigrants will work for less wages than Americans, they also take jobs from Americans while driving down wages; a simple supply/demand equation."

Sorry, dear--far from "sucking off the teet" illegals have taken on the task of wetnursing the American people.

From the New York Times:

There are many ways to debate immigration, but when it comes to economics, there isnt much of a debate at all. Nearly all economists, of all political persuasions, agree that immigrants  those here legally or not  benefit the overall economy. That is not controversial, Heidi Shierholz, an economist at the Economic Policy Institute, told me. Shierholz also said that there is a consensus that, on average, the incomes of families in this country are increased by a small, but clearly positive amount, because of immigration.

The benefit multiplies over the long haul. As the baby boomers retire, the post-boom generations burden to finance their retirement is greatly alleviated by undocumented immigrants. Stephen Goss, chief actuary for the Social Security Administration, told me that undocumented workers contribute about $15 billion a year to Social Security through payroll taxes. They only take out $1 billion (very few undocumented workers are eligible to receive benefits). Over the years, undocumented workers have contributed up to $300 billion, or nearly 10 percent, of the $2.7 trillion Social Security Trust Fund.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put Susan. It's just a trick to try to avoid the inevitable...the white majority vote becomes the minority vote. Can't come too soon for me.



susanmos2000 said:


> The point is that, if this truly is an effort to disenfranchise as many Americans as possible, the definition of what constitutes "proper ID" is going to grow increasingly persnickety. We've already seen that happen in states like Arizona--in 2004 a valid photo ID was deemed insufficient and proof of citizenship in the form of a passport or birth certificate was then demanded. Fortunately this piece of nonsense (Proposition 200) was tossed out by the Supreme Court, but it's stunts like these that make the issue such a touchy one.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> What immediately caught my eye was that a 69.38% was considered low enough to contribute to make voting compulsory in Australia. For a long that's been considered a high turn out in the US. I'd like to see compulsory voting here.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> KPG:
> 
> "Your question is a good one. However, there isn't an illegal immigrant voting problem in the USA. Illegal immigrants do tend to stay away from voting, they don't come to America to vote, they come to earn money for their families and themselves and to get registered on the American entitlement programs.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

PoorPurl said:


> This wasn't banned in Boston? Flaming tongues? Mount of Thy redeeming love? "I am His and He is Mine" is nothing compared to those.


These verses appear in various Protestant hymns from the 18th and 19th centuries, very much a result of the Second Great Awakening. They ate this stuff up in Boston.

I will arise and go to Jesus
He will embrace me in His arms
In the arms of my dear Saviour
Oh, there are ten thousand charms

Teach me some melodious sonnet
Sung by flaming tongues on high
Praise the mount, oh, fix me on it
Mount of Thy redeeming love

The flaming tongues are those of Seraphim, from Wikepedia: " A seraph (/ˈsɛr.əf/; pl. seraphs or seraphim /ˈsɛr.ə.fɪm/; Hebrew: שְׂרָפִים śərāfîm, singular שָׂרָף śārāf; Latin: seraphi[m], singular seraph[us]; Greek: σεραφείμ is a type of celestial or heavenly being in Judaism and Christianity.

A seminal passage in the Book of Isaiah (Isaiah 6:1-8) used the term to describe fiery six-winged beings that fly around the Throne of God crying "holy, holy, holy". This throne scene, with its triple invocation of holiness (a formula that came to be known as the Trisagion)."

Many of our Founding Fathers were deists, but many Protestant sects became more and more fervent in their professions of faith. Kind of like painting ones faith big and bright to expressions of faith how sincerely you believe, especially to show the depth and sincerity of your relationship with Jesus. A lot of this over-wrought ydeveloped in the various Great Awakenings in the US, especially from tent revivals in a particular part of New York State that's refered to as the "burned-over ground"

A little more from Wikipedia (sometimes cut and paste is a great convenience):
*Second Great Awakening*
The Second Great Awakening was a religious revival that occurred in the United States beginning in the late eighteenth century and lasting until the middle of the nineteenth century. While it occurred in all parts of the United States, it was especially strong in the Northeast and the Midwest. This awakening was unique in that it moved beyond the educated elite of New England to those who were less wealthy and less educated. The center of revivalism was the so-called *Burned-over district* in western New York. Named for its overabundance of hellfire-and-damnation preaching, the region produced dozens of new denominations, communal societies, and reform.
In addition to a religious movement, other reform movements such as temperance, abolition, and women's rights also grew in antebellum America. The temperance movement encouraged people to abstain from consuming alcoholic drinks in order to preserve family order. The abolition movement fought to abolish slavery in the United States. The women's rights movement grew from female abolitionists who realized that they too could fight for their own political rights. In addition to these causes, reforms touched nearly every aspect of daily life, such as restricting the use of tobacco and dietary and dress reforms. The abolition movement emerged in the North from the wider Second Great Awakening 1800-1840.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> What immediately caught my eye was that a 69.38% was considered low enough to contribute to make voting compulsory in Australia. For a long that's been considered a high turn out in the US. I'd like to see compulsory voting here.


Sorry, was it a typo? The article I posted refers to a *59.38% turnout*, not the 69.38% you quoted.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> Well put Susan. It's just a trick to try to avoid the inevitable...the white majority vote becomes the minority vote. Can't come too soon for me.


Thanks, Dame. Yes, the times are a-changin' and white conservatives need to accept that.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I don't recall seeing that one in the Bill of Rights. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


First, let me start by saying that everyone SHOULD wear a seat belt and SHOULD wear a helmet when riding a motorcycle. But its a slippery slope when we allow the government to remove personal choice. If the government can say that you must wear seat belts and helmets for your safety, then it can dictate anything else, "for your safety" as well. The list is as long as your imagination. The government could dictate where we live, what kind of car we drive, the work we do and even the shoes we wear. There could be curfews so that we only go out when it's "safe". Where we go, could be restricted according to where it is deemed to be safe. No bathtubs or swimming pools, people drown in them. No seafood, it has mercury in it. No bicycles, no skateboards, no cars, too dangerous. High heels, sandals? Forget it! Everyone must wear shoes that cover the entire foot and offer good support. Burkas? So men won't want to rape you? Or so you don't get a sunburn? Do you want the government to tell you what you can eat and what you can drink? For your safety? Where do we draw the line? Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean that it can't or won't.

Life is dangerous! But we should still have the right to make our own choices! Allowing the government to pass laws requiring individuals to wear seat belts and helmets, only acknowledges that we will allow the government to decide what's safe for us and that we will allow them to dictate to us. And IMO, THAT is more dangerous than life itself! More people have died at the hands of their own government, than by anything else, including war. It's called democide. Governments must be kept in check. The right of the people to make their own decisions, should never be ceded to governments. It's a slippery slope that eventually leads to tyranny.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I agree with you on this.


Yay!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> 1. NBC isn't a liberal network. MSNBC, a cable station, may be called liberal, but that's only because the money people realized there's money to be made from liberals, not just cons.
> 
> 2. I'm certain there are some non-citizens voting, but are they here illegally? People are here legally on all kinds of visas, but you mentioned illegal aliens, not legal ones.
> 
> ...


1. Seriously? NBC IS a liberal station! Everybody knows that! And yes, there's money to be made from liberals. But not that much. Neither station does very well in the ratings.

2. It makes no difference whether non citizen voters are here illegally or not. I'm sure some are, and some aren't. The issue is the fact that they're voting! Illegally!

3. No one has any idea how big the problem is. Libs say it's not a problem. Reps say it is. Big deal! No one has investigated this fully, so no one has any idea of whether or not, it's affecting our election outcomes. It is a FACT that non citizens are voting in our elections. It is wrong! It is illegal! So why isn't anybody doing anything about it? Why do we allow our government to pick and choose which laws they will enforce? If we must obey their laws, shouldn't they be required to enforce them? Even one illegal vote is too many.

This NBC investigation uncovered nearly 100 in a very SMALL sampling! This indicates that the problem is much larger than anyone is willing to acknowledge. Local and state elections are often won by small margins. We cannot ignore the fact that illegal voting could very well be having an effect on our elections. We should be doing something to stop it.

We also have other types of voter fraud. How many dead people are voting? How many people are registered to vote in more than one district? How many people are voting for their relatives? For every case you hear of, there are sure to be many more! If the government isn't willing to enforce voting laws, then the elections are a sham and a fraud!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> We have to show ID for many, many things in Australia. You cannot open a Bank account without ID and your tax file number. A little frustrating at times but it is just life. We are introducing an ID card for people who do not have a driver's licence, which carries our photo and is used for ID purposes. I guess we are just used to the phrase "do you have any ID?" it really is no big deal.


We get asked for ID all of the time as well. I can't imagine that very many people have been able to get by without one. I'm sure there are a few, those who don't work or collect government assistance. I know that I couldn't possibly get by without one. There's no reason why the government can't provide everyone with an ID card. Exemptions could be given to the very few elderly who have no birth certificates. There are no real excuses for anyone else.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> A more serious type of fraud is one person voting in several counties, with the same name. How would those ID's prevent that from happening?


Driver's licenses and government issued IDs list a person's address. That address has a zip code on it, which indicates where that person lives. Problem solved!


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Sorry, was it a typo? The article I posted refers to a *59.38% turnout*, not the 69.38% you quoted.


It's me misreading what you wrote. Chalk it up to my stunning near-sightedness. 59.38% is a pretty good US voter turn-out these days. Personally, I can't understand why people who have the wonderful privilege of voting seem to neither value nor perform what is our civic duty. Well, they DO get the government they deserve.

How many times have we seen news reports where some country has enfranchised the population at large, and people turn out to vote in droves, wearing their best clothes, smiling, tears on their cheeks, etc. A lot of OUR citizens sit on their big fat butts they've got courtesy of McDonalds, tranquilized by TV, the current opiate of too many people.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Is there any basis to claims that undocumented aliens have voted?


Not according to anything I've read. The people in Nebraska's story appear to have been documented, though not citizens.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Here in the States some proof for ID is difficult for people to obtain. For example, once upon a time in certain areas, people were born at home without a physician. Birth certificate?


This article details how difficult it can really be. However, it lists many reasons for needing a photo ID and voting isn't even one of them. These people must go to court and get a judge to issue them birth certificates whether they vote or not. The article says, "Without a birth certificate (among other documents) in Pennsylvania, residents can't get state-issued ID cards. Without ID cards, officials say, people can't get jobs, access to Social Security benefits, get medical benefits, have surgery, get medicine, access housing benefits, open bank accounts, or board planes, or even inner city buses.". 
http://articles.philly.com/2014-03-28/news/48634147_1_certificate-viviette-applewhite-south-carolina

So, needing an ID to vote is beside the point. These people need an ID just to live. Instead of fighting over whether people should have to show ID to vote, we should be fighting to see that everyone has access to ID.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> We get asked for ID all of the time as well. I can't imagine that very many people have been able to get by without one. I'm sure there are a few, those who don't work or collect government assistance. I know that I couldn't possibly get by without one. There's no reason why the government can't provide everyone with an ID card. Exemptions could be given to the very few elderly who have no birth certificates. There are no real excuses for anyone else.


What has happened to us? It wasn't so very long ago that the very idea of required ID cards, much less a national ID card was an anathema. Talk about government control! The next step is monitoring the movement of citizens. Such things were required in the USSR and Nazi Germany. It seems that, more and more, Americans are willing to give up essential rights and liberties.

_Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety._


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> What immediately caught my eye was that a 69.38% was considered low enough to contribute to make voting compulsory in Australia. For a long that's been considered a high turn out in the US. I'd like to see compulsory voting here.


Eve wrote _59.38%_. Unfortunately, even that's a high turnout here.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> These verses appear in various Protestant hymns from the 18th and 19th centuries, very much a result of the Second Great Awakening. They ate this stuff up in Boston.
> 
> I will arise and go to Jesus
> He will embrace me in His arms
> ...


Thank you for this. Some of the reforms look like Mormon practices, though I think Mormonism began earlier and wasn't abolitionist.

I'd never heard of the "burned-over" district. Was that the part of New York State that Frederick Douglass did a lot of his speaking in? Never mind - I looked it up myself. I guess the answer to my question is Yes, but a lot more happened there. It's a big piece of the state.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> For those who say they do not have a birth certificate, they can get one if born in the US. Baptismal certificates from that era are acceptable and then there is the census. My father was born on the farmstead in central Wisconsin in 1907. He needed to get a Birth Certificate to get married in 1943. He was given one based on the 1910 census, and his parents were residents in the 1900 census. (a generalized explanation).
> 
> If for some reason they were NOT born in this country why are they trying to vote unless they have been naturalized. Then they would have naturalization papers. If they are on Social Security would they have needed a birth certificate to get that?


I believe you're missing the point, Joey. Conservatives want to disenfranchise a certain percentage of the American voting public, and they achieve their goal by raising the bar and raising the bar on what constitutes proper ID until the magic number is reached.

If too many potential voters can produce utility bills with their addresses on them, conservatives demand photo ID. If that doesn't deter enough folks, another hoop is raised by requiring state-issued photo ID, such as a drivers license. Still too many of "the wrong sort" turning up at the polls? OK, set the hoop on fire and require voters to jump through it with "proof of citizenship" (birth certificates and passports) in hand. It's a dirty game, and it's been with us in one form or another since the 1860s.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> First, let me start by saying that everyone SHOULD wear a seat belt and SHOULD wear a helmet when riding a motorcycle. But its a slippery slope when we allow the government to remove personal choice. If the government can say that you must wear seat belts and helmets for your safety, then it can dictate anything else, "for your safety" as well. The list is as long as your imagination. The government could dictate where we live, what kind of car we drive, the work we do and even the shoes we wear. There could be curfews so that we only go out when it's "safe". Where we go, could be restricted according to where it is deemed to be safe. No bathtubs or swimming pools, people drown in them. No seafood, it has mercury in it. No bicycles, no skateboards, no cars, too dangerous. High heels, sandals? Forget it! Everyone must wear shoes that cover the entire foot and offer good support. Burkas? So men won't want to rape you? Or so you don't get a sunburn? Do you want the government to tell you what you can eat and what you can drink? For your safety? Where do we draw the line? Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean that it can't or won't.
> 
> Life is dangerous! But we should still have the right to make our own choices! Allowing the government to pass laws requiring individuals to wear seat belts and helmets, only acknowledges that we will allow the government to decide what's safe for us and that we will allow them to dictate to us. And IMO, THAT is more dangerous than life itself! More people have died at the hands of their own government, than by anything else, including war. It's called democide. Governments must be kept in check. The right of the people to make their own decisions, should never be ceded to governments. It's a slippery slope that eventually leads to tyranny.


A driver who hits his head on the windshield and loses control of his car is going to hurt a lot more than himself. Do the injured and dead in the cars he hits have the same personal choice?

As for the cyclist without a helmet, he doesn't pay for his hospitalization and other medical costs of his brain injury; the rest of us do. Another personal choice?

Are you also against FDA and Dept. of Agr. regulations that at least try to keep our food and drugs uncontaminated? Shouldn't the factory farms and pharmaceutical plants be able to use their personal choice?

What about the EPA? Where's the personal choice of the corporations that make all the profit out of filthying up the water and the air while we get to clean up after them?

Want fracking in your back yard? It seems to have led to a spate of earthquakes in Oklahoma. Shouldn't Nebraska have a personal choice to choose those?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> 1. Seriously? NBC IS a liberal station! Everybody knows that! And yes, there's money to be made from liberals. But not that much. Neither station does very well in the ratings.
> 
> 2. It makes no difference whether non citizen voters are here illegally or not. I'm sure some are, and some aren't. The issue is the fact that they're voting! Illegally!
> 
> ...


Apparently not everyone knows how liberal NBC is. We've all seen Meet the Press, where there's probably an 80-20 ratio of conservative guests to liberals. Anyway, I don't watch TV news.

The link I sent you purports to have studied the "voting fraud" question deeply. It also goes into those other forms that you list, the ones that the ID cards won't make a dent in.

Besides, I'm pretty certain the elections have been "a sham and a fraud" since voting was mandated to be by electronic means rather than the old mechanical voting booths or paper ballots. There are too many ways to control the output of the new machines.

I have too much real reading to do today to continue with this.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> We get asked for ID all of the time as well. I can't imagine that very many people have been able to get by without one. I'm sure there are a few, those who don't work or collect government assistance. I know that I couldn't possibly get by without one. There's no reason why the government can't provide everyone with an ID card. Exemptions could be given to the very few elderly who have no birth certificates. There are no real excuses for anyone else.


Most places that ask for photo ID in New York (where almost every office building checks ID, creating an expensive new industry) will accept my Metro Card, which has a picture on it. The most official thing it needed was a notary's stamp affirming that that was my signature on the application.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> We get asked for ID all of the time as well. I can't imagine that very many people have been able to get by without one. I'm sure there are a few, those who don't work or collect government assistance. I know that I couldn't possibly get by without one. There's no reason why the government can't provide everyone with an ID card. Exemptions could be given to the very few elderly who have no birth certificates. There are no real excuses for anyone else.


The Constitution allows us to travel freely from state to state, without needing papers, but you want to do away with that. Shame!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Driver's licenses and government issued IDs list a person's address. That address has a zip code on it, which indicates where that person lives. Problem solved!


I think those can be tampered with, easily. Otherwise how do you explain the fact that people can and do vote multiple times in different counties.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> What has happened to us? It wasn't so very long ago that the very idea of required ID cards, much less a national ID card was an anathema. Talk about government control! The next step is monitoring the movement of citizens. Such things were required in the USSR and Nazi Germany. It seems that, more and more, Americans are willing to give up essential rights and liberties.
> 
> _Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety._


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: But I miss your Groucho quote.


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## thumper5316 (Oct 7, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Frankly, I believe He expects us to try solve any problems we've brought upon ourselves through our own efforts. The world--and the West in particular--has brought about the current state of crisis by a series of shortsighted and very dumb decisions. Throwing up our hands and/or begging God to save us is not the correct path.


Many also fail to accept that, as there is good there is evil as well. The West has not brought about the current state of crisis. It's been present for a very long time. It has just become more active and insidious. However, I agree that throwing up our hands is not the correct path. Neither is trying to enter into negotiations with these horrendous animals.


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## thumper5316 (Oct 7, 2011)

tamarque said:


> First, more war does create peace.


I disagree. Only a squashed enemy is willing to enter into negotiations and keep a peace.



tamarque said:


> We know this in interpersonal relationships just as we know this on international levels.


 Yeah...like that worked so well with the Nazis. We just didn't talk to them long enough.

I equate the terrorists from the Middle East as the same type of animals.



tamarque said:


> The warmongering of the West against states that sit on coveted resources like oil and gas and water has resulted in equally extreme counter forces developing. The West being the racist, elitist and arrogant set of nations that they are has refused to learn that when you attack people, they will find a way to fight back. Western culture, so full of hubris, cannot believe that people who live in a desert have enough intelligence and personal integrity to fight back. And fighting back they are with increasing skills and commitment..


 I suggest if you think _your_ culture is _so_ bad then you should move to one those wonderfully free countries with those citizens that are much more non-racist and embracing than us. However, I suggest you convert to Muslim first or you just might lose your head.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I have to wonder why 'illegal aliens' would want/try to vote at all. If they're in the country illegally one would think they'd be keeping a very low profile.
> 
> A lot of people come to Australia on holiday visas and then disappear into occupations,(where their remuneration benefits their 'minders' more than they benefit them), holed up in apartments/houses where their every 'outside need' is taken care of. They're provided false working visas and in some cases false passports. Why on earth would their 'minders' risk exposure by encouraging them to vote?


They vote to keep in office, those who allow them to stay, among other things. For example, we have immigration law. Obama signs executive orders to not follow the laws. It used to be that illegal aliens hid and tried to disappear within the country. No longer! They blatantly disobey the laws because they know the laws are not enforced. They used to sneak across the border. Now, they just walk right in, because they know no one will stop them. They used to be afraid of deportment. But now in most cases, they go to a deportment hearing and then are released and told to appear for deportment at a later date. How many do you think, show up? They're gone. It's a joke and they know that. When the real criminal illegal aliens are held and are actually deported, they turn around and come right back. Deportment for them, is merely an inconvenience. Its always advantageous to vote for the person who benefits you most. If all of a sudden, immigration laws were to be enforced, their lives would drastically change.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Is there any basis to claims that undocumented aliens have voted?


Read the link I posted, to an article of the investigation done by an NBC station in Florida. Yes! Non citizens are voting in the US!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Anyway, there's a news story here, probably the first of many (I hope), where a 21 year old male has been caught preparing for fighting in Syria and recruiting others to do the same:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/National/2014/09/10/12/35/afp-raid-islamic-bookstore


I wonder why we're not hearing about the same thing, here. Is it just me? Has the US government been catching people planning to fight, recruiting others or funding?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> The point is that, if this truly is an effort to disenfranchise as many Americans as possible, the definition of what constitutes "proper ID" is going to grow increasingly persnickety. We've already seen that happen in states like Arizona--in 2004 a valid photo ID was deemed insufficient and proof of citizenship in the form of a passport or birth certificate was then demanded. Fortunately this piece of nonsense (Proposition 200) was tossed out by the Supreme Court, but it's stunts like these that make the issue such a touchy one.


But, in Arizona, illegal aliens can get driver's licenses. So should that give them license to vote?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> I believe you're missing the point, Joey. Conservatives want to disenfranchise a certain percentage of the American voting public, and they achieve their goal by raising the bar and raising the bar on what constitutes proper ID until the magic number is reached.
> 
> If too many potential voters can produce utility bills with their addresses on them, conservatives demand photo ID. If that doesn't deter enough folks, another hoop is raised by requiring state-issued photo ID, such as a drivers license. Still too many of "the wrong sort" turning up at the polls? OK, set the hoop on fire and require voters to jump through it with "proof of citizenship" (birth certificates and passports) in hand. It's a dirty game, and it's been with us in one form or another since the 1860s.


I agree! Well said.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> But, in Arizona, illegal aliens can get driver's licenses. So should that give them license to vote?


No, they cannot. Even undocumented workers who have been granted a reprieve by the INS can't get a license, even a temporary one.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> But, in Arizona, illegal aliens can get driver's licenses. So should that give them license to vote?


Two different things. Of course illegals should not vote. Few have been PROVEN to even attempt to do so.

As for the driver's licenses, I would rather know the people I share the road with have been tested than not. And by the way, Arizona does not issue these licenses to just anyone who manages to cross the border.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I wonder why we're not hearing about the same thing, here. Is it just me? Has the US government been catching people planning to fight, recruiting others or funding?


I'm not so sure about catching them, but they do know of many who have left the US to fight along with them.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Not according to anything I've read. The people in Nebraska's story appear to have been documented, though not citizens.


"appear to have been documented"??? The article says nothing about whether they were documented. Only that they had registered to vote and were not legal citizens.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> No, they cannot. Even undocumented workers who have been granted a reprieve by the INS can't get a license, even a temporary one.


I believe you have to produce a green card to get one. I could be mistaken.
Maybe refugees get different priveledges?
This conversation is getting carried away. The link posted by NBC was talking about a few in FL. It does not mean that illegals are coming out in masses to vote all over the country.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> What has happened to us? It wasn't so very long ago that the very idea of required ID cards, much less a national ID card was an anathema. Talk about government control! The next step is monitoring the movement of citizens. Such things were required in the USSR and Nazi Germany. It seems that, more and more, Americans are willing to give up essential rights and liberties.
> 
> _Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety._


I do actually see your point. But, what then is the solution? Do we allow anyone and everyone to vote in our elections? There is no honor or honesty anymore. It seems to be fine to break the laws as long as you're not caught or as long as it's a law that no one wants to enforce. If the voting laws aren't enforced, why should we bother voting at all? They're meaningless.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I do actually see your point. But, what then is the solution? Do we allow anyone and everyone to vote in our elections? There is no honor or honesty anymore. It seems to be fine to break the laws as long as you're not caught or as long as it's a law that no one wants to enforce. If the voting laws aren't enforced, why should we bother voting at all? They're meaningless.


I don't believe that. Our votes do count. The numbers of voter fraud are very low compared to the population number of this country.
It's never okay to break the law, KFN. Those committing voter fraud should be drawn and quartered. As for honor, if you keep yours and I keep mine, then there is honor.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I believe you're missing the point, Joey. Conservatives want to disenfranchise a certain percentage of the American voting public, and they achieve their goal by raising the bar and raising the bar on what constitutes proper ID until the magic number is reached.
> 
> If too many potential voters can produce utility bills with their addresses on them, conservatives demand photo ID. If that doesn't deter enough folks, another hoop is raised by requiring state-issued photo ID, such as a drivers license. Still too many of "the wrong sort" turning up at the polls? OK, set the hoop on fire and require voters to jump through it with "proof of citizenship" (birth certificates and passports) in hand. It's a dirty game, and it's been with us in one form or another since the 1860s.


How about they prove citizenship ONCE, when they register to vote? Why do we have a system where anyone can register to vote?


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> The point is that, if this truly is an effort to disenfranchise as many Americans as possible, the definition of what constitutes "proper ID" is going to grow increasingly persnickety. We've already seen that happen in states like Arizona--in 2004 a valid photo ID was deemed insufficient and proof of citizenship in the form of a passport or birth certificate was then demanded. Fortunately this piece of nonsense (Proposition 200) was tossed out by the Supreme Court, but it's stunts like these that make the issue such a touchy one.


The point is that it is NOT difficult to obtain a valid ID. States are practically bending over backwards to get their citizens IDs and to make the process easy and, in many cases, free. This nonsense is just Democrats ranting and raving about hardships where none exist and blaming the Republicans because people don't get valid IDs. State agencies require IDs for a variety of services. It is the responsibility of the person to obtain the proper ID. For all their spewing of the government will take of you from the cradle to the grave, the Democrats should be mailing out the necessary IDs to the members of their party. I know, I know, if they did that the Dems couldn't blame the Republicans for making it so hard to obtain valid IDs.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> They vote to keep in office, those who allow them to stay, among other things. For example, we have immigration law. Obama signs executive orders to not follow the laws. It used to be that illegal aliens hid and tried to disappear within the country. No longer!  They blatantly disobey the laws because they know the laws are not enforced. They used to sneak across the border. Now, they just walk right in, because they know no one will stop them. They used to be afraid of deportment. But now in most cases, they go to a deportment hearing and then are released and told to appear for deportment at a later date. How many do you think, show up? They're gone. It's a joke and they know that. When the real criminal illegal aliens are held and are actually deported, they turn around and come right back. Deportment for them, is merely an inconvenience. Its always advantageous to vote for the person who benefits you most. If all of a sudden, immigration laws were to be enforced, their lives would drastically change.


The current administration has deported more people than any before it. Deportation (not deportment, which means behavior) is still a serious penalty.

How much time do you spend among aliens, illegal or otherwise, that you know what they do and what they laugh at? Or are you just picking up what you read on your usual biased blogs?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> "appear to have been documented"??? The article says nothing about whether they were documented. Only that they had registered to vote and were not legal citizens.


You're right. I had to go back forever and reread. Apparently I just assumed they were here legally because they had been here for a long time and weren't afraid to give their names or to apply for driver's licenses.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> For all their spewing of the government will take of you from the cradle to the grave,


 Who "spews" this? Not the Dems; it's the GOP's idea of what the left has in mind, but it's a very uninformed idea.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> The point is that it is NOT difficult to obtain a valid ID. States are practically bending over backwards to get their citizens IDs and to make the process easy and, in many cases, free. This nonsense is just Democrats ranting and raving about hardships where none exist and blaming the Republicans because people don't get valid IDs. State agencies require IDs for a variety of services. It is the responsibility of the person to obtain the proper ID.


What constitutes the proper ID when it comes to voting? A utility bill? Drivers license? A passport? Again, the point of it all is to disenfranchise a certain percentage of voters, so conservatives will always demand more and more until the required number of voters drops out. Arizona has already broken new ground by demanding that voters produce birth certificates and passports--do you really think it's going to stop there?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> A driver who hits his head on the windshield and loses control of his car is going to hurt a lot more than himself. Do the injured and dead in the cars he hits have the same personal choice?
> 
> As for the cyclist without a helmet, he doesn't pay for his hospitalization and other medical costs of his brain injury; the rest of us do. Another personal choice?
> 
> ...


It's the same when someone falls off their bike, twists their ankle wearing high heels or drives a car. We all pay! That's what insurance is, shared risk. Everything in life is a risk. Do we want to legislate everything in life?

Don't get me started on government agencies, especially the FDA. Their regulations are a joke! They only care that the paperwork is in order. They don't test any drugs. They allow the pharmaceutical companies to do their own testing and even though drug companies have been caught falsifying data, they're still allowed to stay in business. IMO, the pharmaceutical corporations are selling weapons of mass destruction to the people and when they get caught, they pay a fine that doesn't come close to the money they made off of their deadly drug. Legal drugs now kill more people than illegal drugs.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/10/26/prescription-drugs-number-one-cause-preventable-death-in-us.aspx

The EPA is owned by the corporations and does their dirty work, by putting the little guy out of business. Corporate farming and animal production uses heinous practices and get the EPA goes after the family farmer for letting his cows drink from puddles. That water doesn't belong to them! 
http://foxnewsinsider.com/2014/05/30/judge-nap-krauthammer-weigh-insane-epa-water-rule. (Even democrats are concerned about this). The EPA has declared ownership of all of our water! Small business cant afford the legal fees to follow complicated regulation, thus driving them out of business. If a corporation wants land for any reason, the EPA will drive out the owner, through regulations. The corporations can do as they please. The EPA is even banning wood burning fireplaces and stoves, so that the people will be forced to buy their heat from corporations. They are also banning the least expensive and most practical methods of heating our homes. Many people will be forced to choose between heat and food. BTW, the corporations are still "filthying up the water and the air". They just pay a fine when they're caught.

Let each state pass its own laws and let the federal government deal with national infrastructure and military defense. But then, they don't even do those things very well.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Apparently not everyone knows how liberal NBC is. We've all seen Meet the Press, where there's probably an 80-20 ratio of conservative guests to liberals. Anyway, I don't watch TV news.
> 
> The link I sent you purports to have studied the "voting fraud" question deeply. It also goes into those other forms that you list, the ones that the ID cards won't make a dent in.
> 
> ...


I agree with you about electronic voting! Here in Nebraska, we still use paper ballots. No computer hacking, no hanging chads! Just paper and pencil!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Most places that ask for photo ID in New York (where almost every office building checks ID, creating an expensive new industry) will accept my Metro Card, which has a picture on it. The most official thing it needed was a notary's stamp affirming that that was my signature on the application.


Interesting. Here it's either driver's license or state issued ID.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Interesting. Here it's either driver's license or state issued ID.


That's just the difference btwn a Democratic state and a Republican one. We're less paranoid.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> The Constitution allows us to travel freely from state to state, without needing papers, but you want to do away with that. Shame!


No actually, I don't! I just want to stop non citizens from voting! To you have any ideas?

You say the Constitution allows us to travel freely from state to state? Apparently it doesn't anymore. The supreme court has upheld the right of the police to stop you and interrogate you when you've done absolutely nothing wrong. They call it a safety check. Once we were traveling east on interstate 80, in western Nebraska. We were forced off the interstate into a rest area. The state patrol asked my husband for his papers and asked him to turn on his headlights. Mind you, it was daytime, so we weren't required to use headlights. The officer then interrogated my husband. He asked where are you going, what is your business there? Where are you traveling from, what was your business there? I was outraged! It seemed as if we had crossed a border into Russia. I wrote letters to the highway patrol, the governor, and all of my state's congressmen and senators. The response was the same. It was a safety check. It's legal. And that's what's happening in our country!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I think those can be tampered with, easily. Otherwise how do you explain the fact that people can and do vote multiple times in different counties.


They register in multiple counties and vote in multiple counties. They're not required to show ID, to do either.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> No, they cannot. Even undocumented workers who have been granted a reprieve by the INS can't get a license, even a temporary one.


http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/2014/07/07/arizonas-denial-drivers-licenses-immigrants-appeals-court-rules-state/12291683/


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Two different things. Of course illegals should not vote. Few have been PROVEN to even attempt to do so.
> 
> As for the driver's licenses, I would rather know the people I share the road with have been tested than not. And by the way, Arizona does not issue these licenses to just anyone who manages to cross the border.


"Few have been PROVEN to even attempt to do so" BECAUSE nobody WANTS to prove it. They refuse to even investigate whether it's a problem or not. They just say, "It's not a problem". And we're supposed to believe them.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I believe you have to produce a green card to get one. I could be mistaken.
> Maybe refugees get different priveledges?
> This conversation is getting carried away. The link posted by NBC was talking about a few in FL. It does not mean that illegals are coming out in masses to vote all over the country.


100 in ONE county, using ONLY those who just happened to be called for jury duty! How do we know that illegals AREN'T coming out in masses to vote? No one has ever truly investigated. They just TELL us there is no problem.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I don't believe that. Our votes do count. The numbers of voter fraud are very low compared to the population number of this country.
> It's never okay to break the law, KFN. Those committing voter fraud should be drawn and quartered. As for honor, if you keep yours and I keep mine, then there is honor.


Your last sentence is true! However, we don't know if the numbers are low or not. The government will not investigate!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> The current administration has deported more people than any before it. Deportation (not deportment, which means behavior) is still a serious penalty.
> 
> How much time do you spend among aliens, illegal or otherwise, that you know what they do and what they laugh at? Or are you just picking up what you read on your usual biased blogs?


Haha! "deportment", I didn't notice that! I even proofread! I need a time out!

I don't really care which administration deported more people. But out of curiosity, I googled it and found this interesting article. I know nothing about the website, but the article is non biased and well supported by links to government data and other sources.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117412/deportations-under-obama-vs-bush-who-deported-more-immigrants
There's even a link to a " Mother Jones" article explaining the same (though not as well).
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/obama-administration-record-deportations
I learned something new!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> That's just the difference btwn a Democratic state and a Republican one. We're less paranoid.


That, and we don't have a metro. :XD: (or anything remotely like it)


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I'm going to go make some Tortellini Soup. It's a cloudy, chilly day here. Mmmmm!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No actually, I don't! I just want to stop non citizens from voting! To you have any ideas?
> 
> You say the Constitution allows us to travel freely from state to state? Apparently it doesn't anymore. The supreme court has upheld the right of the police to stop you and interrogate you when you've done absolutely nothing wrong. They call it a safety check. Once we were traveling east on interstate 80, in western Nebraska. We were forced off the interstate into a rest area. The state patrol asked my husband for his papers and asked him to turn on his headlights. Mind you, it was daytime, so we weren't required to use headlights. The officer then interrogated my husband. He asked where are you going, what is your business there? Where are you traveling from, what was your business there? I was outraged! It seemed as if we had crossed a border into Russia. I wrote letters to the highway patrol, the governor, and all of my state's congressmen and senators. The response was the same. It was a safety check. It's legal. And that's what's happening in our country!


Horrible. Well, I give up. I keep looking for reasons to think we're better than other countries as far as civil liberties are concerned, but you keep showing me that we're not. I'm putting my thumb in my mouth and going back to bed.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Horrible. Well, I give up. I keep looking for reasons to think we're better than other countries as far as civil liberties are concerned, but you keep showing me that we're not. I'm putting my thumb in my mouth and going back to bed.


Have some soup first. It'll help. It always does.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I do actually see your point. But, what then is the solution? Do we allow anyone and everyone to vote in our elections? There is no honor or honesty anymore. It seems to be fine to break the laws as long as you're not caught or as long as it's a law that no one wants to enforce. If the voting laws aren't enforced, why should we bother voting at all? They're meaningless.


If you don't vote, there are no objections you can make to the outcome of any election in which you neglected to vote.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm going to go make some Tortellini Soup. It's a cloudy, chilly day here. Mmmmm!


Things are heating up in my little part of the world so it will be another potato salad and hot dogs if I can't find the hamburger patties I put in the freezer a couple of days ago. Or maybe I'll make a chicken salad as I have a lot of cooked chicken in the freezer. Got some very tasty tomatoes at the Farmers' Market, too. And I ought to cook the celery root and the beet in the vegetable crisper.

It was cooler yesterday My mother requested a good steak, baked potato and asparagus. It was a rere and tasty treat. I learned to pan fry steak and have never broiled using the oven. I turned out perfect medium cook steaks. We really cleaned our plates off last night.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I do actually see your point. But, what then is the solution? Do we allow anyone and everyone to vote in our elections? There is no honor or honesty anymore. It seems to be fine to break the laws as long as you're not caught or as long as it's a law that no one wants to enforce. If the voting laws aren't enforced, why should we bother voting at all? They're meaningless.


For all the cries of "voter fraud! voter fraud!" that abound, it has been shown that the actual numbers of such are...less than 1%. To hear some tell it, fraudulent voting takes place in huge numbers we need to be protected against. Not so. Mandatory ID for voting is simply wrong.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> If you don't vote, there are no objections you can make to the outcome of any election in which you neglected to vote.


I have voted in every election since I was 18. For years, I've been voting for the lesser of two evils. But this time??? There is NO ONE, I could possibly vote for. I haven't got the stomach for it!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I have voted in every election since I was 18. For years, I've been voting for the lesser of two evils. But this time??? There is NO ONE, I could possibly vote for. I haven't got the stomach for it!


Are you prescient? Who exactly is running in '16?


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Frankly, the right has become so scary that I would vote for a diseased monkey if that was the only opposition...


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Things are heating up in my little part of the world so it will be another potato salad and hot dogs if I can't find the hamburger patties I put in the freezer a couple of days ago. Or maybe I'll make a chicken salad as I have a lot of cooked chicken in the freezer. Got some very tasty tomatoes at the Farmers' Market, too. And I ought to cook the celery root and the beet in the vegetable crisper.
> 
> It was cooler yesterday My mother requested a good steak, baked potato and asparagus. It was a rere and tasty treat. I learned to pan fry steak and have never broiled using the oven. I turned out perfect medium cook steaks. We really cleaned our plates off last night.


Mmmm! It all sounds good. I've never pan fried steak before. We always grill ours. I have broiled them before but I hate the mess and the smell that lingers. So, I rarely do that. I've never even heard of celery root. I don't think it's even available here. If it is, I haven't seen it. What do you do with it?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> For all the cries of "voter fraud! voter fraud!" that abound, it has been shown that the actual numbers of such are...less than 1%. To hear some tell it, fraudulent voting takes place in huge numbers we need to be protected against. Not so. Mandatory ID for voting is simply wrong.


Where has it been shown? Has there ever been an official investigation? I've only ever heard people just saying it, with nothing to back up their statement. Please post a link, if you have one. This would be news to me.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Are you prescient? Who exactly is running in '16?


We have mid term elections coming up soon.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Frankly, the right has become so scary that I would vote for a diseased monkey if that was the only opposition...


I second that monkey. But only if it was here legally. :roll:


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Where has it been shown? Has there ever been an official investigation? I've only ever heard people just saying it, with nothing to back up their statement. Please post a link, if you have one. This would be news to me.


Hey, even Faux News reported on it: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/24/voter-id-laws-target-rarely-occurring-voter-fraud/

"Even supporters of the new laws are hard pressed to come up with large numbers of cases in which someone tried to vote under a false identify."

"ndiana's law, passed in 2005, was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court in 2008. Levitt combed through 250 cases of alleged election law fraud cited in legal briefs filed in that challenge. He found only nine instances involving a person allegedly voting in someone else's name, possibly fraudulently or possibly because of an error when the person signed in at the voting booth."

http://truth-out.org/news/item/1098...-finds-just-10-cases-of-in-person-voter-fraud

A new nationwide analysis of 2,068 alleged election-fraud cases since 2000 shows that while fraud has occurred, the rate is infinitesimal, and in-person voter impersonation on Election Day, which prompted 37 state legislatures to enact or consider tough voter ID laws, is virtually non-existent.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No actually, I don't! I just want to stop non citizens from voting! To you have any ideas?
> 
> You say the Constitution allows us to travel freely from state to state? Apparently it doesn't anymore. The supreme court has upheld the right of the police to stop you and interrogate you when you've done absolutely nothing wrong. They call it a safety check. Once we were traveling east on interstate 80, in western Nebraska. We were forced off the interstate into a rest area. The state patrol asked my husband for his papers and asked him to turn on his headlights. Mind you, it was daytime, so we weren't required to use headlights. The officer then interrogated my husband. He asked where are you going, what is your business there? Where are you traveling from, what was your business there? I was outraged! It seemed as if we had crossed a border into Russia. I wrote letters to the highway patrol, the governor, and all of my state's congressmen and senators. The response was the same. It was a safety check. It's legal. And that's what's happening in our country!


I, too, am horrified. I understand why "safety checks" are allowed, but only to the extent that they pertain to matters of safety. I seriously think your elected officials are part of the "blue wall." American citizens do NOT have to ANSWER questions about where they have been, where they are going, or their business. It does not matter whether you have "anything to hide." The 5th Amendment is still in effect, I believe. Sounds like the policeman had you check your headlights to provide a plausible (though flimsy) excuse for the stop. Again, officers can ask you anything and they can legally lie to you - you DO NOT have to answer. Nor do you have to allow a search of your vehicle without a warrant. Police might get pissed and they might make your life miserable for hours, but if you research what defense attorneys have to say about this, they will tell you: SAY NOTHING. I'm so sorry to hear you had that bad experience.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Where has it been shown? Has there ever been an official investigation? I've only ever heard people just saying it, with nothing to back up their statement. Please post a link, if you have one. This would be news to me.


http://www.brennancenter.org/issues/voter-fraud

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/08/06/a-comprehensive-investigation-of-voter-impersonation-finds-31-credible-incidents-out-of-one-billion-ballots-cast/

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/voter-fraud-real-rare/story?id=17213376

Please don't try to tell me ABC is a liberal network.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I, too, am horrified. I understand why "safety checks" are allowed, but only to the extent that they pertain to matters of safety. I seriously think your elected officials are part of the "blue wall." American citizens do NOT have to ANSWER questions about where they have been, where they are going, or their business. It does not matter whether you have "anything to hide." The 5th Amendment is still in effect, I believe. Sounds like the policeman had you check your headlights to provide a plausible (though flimsy) excuse for the stop. Again, officers can ask you anything and they can legally lie to you - you DO NOT have to answer. Nor do you have to allow a search of your vehicle without a warrant. Police might get pissed and they might make your life miserable for hours, but if you research what defense attorneys have to say about this, they will tell you: SAY NOTHING. I'm so sorry to hear you had that bad experience.


Some localities (mainly in the South) get most or all of their revenue by stopping cars, looking for anything that might be an excuse, and confiscating the property of the people in the car, not just the driver or the owner. They're especially happy to find even small amounts of drugs, but just carrying a lot of cash is enough for them to arrest you, so you can contribute to their treasury.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Some localities (mainly in the South) get most or all of their revenue by stopping cars, looking for anything that might be an excuse, and confiscating the property of the people in the car, not just the driver or the owner. They're especially happy to find even small amounts of drugs, but just carrying a lot of cash is enough for them to arrest you, so you can contribute to their treasury.


In light of recent news and the many stories about police abuse that are surfacing in the wake of Ferguson, it would seem that citizens need to DEMAND accountability. I am particularly horrified at the militarization of police, starting with our own "Sherriff Joe" in Arizona. He thinks he's god, with the power of life and death. People die in his jail for no reason and yet we keep electing him (well, not me). Time for this to stop, especially since the bad guys tend to pick on people of color and the poor.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> In light of recent news and the many stories about police abuse that are surfacing in the wake of Ferguson, it would seem that citizens need to DEMAND accountability. I am particularly horrified at the militarization of police, starting with our own "Sherriff Joe" in Arizona. He thinks he's god, with the power of life and death. People die in his jail for no reason and yet we keep electing him (well, not me). Time for this to stop, especially since the bad guys tend to pick on people of color and the poor.


Joe Arpaio is a pretty bad guy, but he appeals to the "law and order" idiots who think law is only about punishment. And he's smart enough to know to keep away from anyone with the money or connections to kick him out of office - hence, picking on people of color and the poor.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> Hey, even Faux News reported on it: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/24/voter-id-laws-target-rarely-occurring-voter-fraud/
> 
> "Even supporters of the new laws are hard pressed to come up with large numbers of cases in which someone tried to vote under a false identify."
> 
> ...


First of all, neither of these articles made reference to any type of official investigation. All statements were made by groups that may or may not have an agenda. Second of all, one quote from the first article makes my point. "One reason there's scant evidence of voter fraud is that no one checks ID at the polls."


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> http://www.brennancenter.org/issues/voter-fraud
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/08/06/a-comprehensive-investigation-of-voter-impersonation-finds-31-credible-incidents-out-of-one-billion-ballots-cast/
> 
> ...


These aren't exactly "official" investigations either. Assuming that all of these studies were non biased and carried out correctly (which is assuming a lot), every one of them acknowledges fraud. They minimize that fraud by saying the numbers are too small to matter. While that may be true in a presidential election, local elections are often decided on very close margins. No one really knows whether it makes a difference or not.

I'm sick of talking about this because I think that even ONE illegal vote is too many. I understand that I'm in the minority and that all of you could post dozens of articles. I will still believe that voter fraud should be prevented and punished. Voter ID, may not be the way to do it but I've not heard any other suggestions.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Some localities (mainly in the South) get most or all of their revenue by stopping cars, looking for anything that might be an excuse, and confiscating the property of the people in the car, not just the driver or the owner. They're especially happy to find even small amounts of drugs, but just carrying a lot of cash is enough for them to arrest you, so you can contribute to their treasury.


The Nebraska highway patrol has a history of making huge drug busts on I 80. I still think it's unacceptable to treat everyone as criminals. People end up complying because if they refuse, they're detained for hours.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I have voted in every election since I was 18. For years, I've been voting for the lesser of two evils. But this time??? There is NO ONE, I could possibly vote for. I haven't got the stomach for it!


I consider most of the votes I've cast to be of little value. Still, I persist to vote. If you don't vote you get the government you deserve, as I've said before, and you have no grounds on which to criticize it. I'm not trying to insult you. This is what I believe about people in general who don't vote.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Joe Arpaio is a pretty bad guy, but he appeals to the "law and order" idiots who think law is only about punishment. And he's smart enough to know to keep away from anyone with the money or connections to kick him out of office - hence, picking on people of color and the poor.


I am NOT a fan of Arpaio - I agree completely. He was first elected when we were snowbirds in Arizona and he is an arrogant ass in my opinion. I have followed his interviews and the information about him and I wonder why he is allowed to get away with his type of activity.

We spent a lot of winters in Arizona and never got the feeling that it was a dangerous place to be or that there was trouble with the police etc. HOwever we were in a snowbird park and we rarely if ever went out unless in groups not because we were worried about it but because we just usually went out with friends. I absolutely enjoyed every moment we spent in Arizona. I have always wondered why he is re elected every term.

+++
*I just watched President Obama's speech* -- what were your thoughts about it? I would be interested tol know what you thought about his decisions and whether you think he is handling the scary situation successfully. Surprisingly I have been watching the news networks and the Conservative members who were interviewed on both networks were in the whole quite happy with what he said.

Wouldn't it be great if both sides are able to agree on something - Usually the US citizens pull together when faced with a serious problem like IS .Usually - when push comes to shove - you all pull together for your country. -Just my opinion and I hope I am not overstepping. That is something that I feel 
is your greatest strength and it has been a worry this past while, as I wonder whether that will ever happen after the division this past few years.

I just watched the first interviews. It appears as if his decisions are supported.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Mmmm! It all sounds good. I've never pan fried steak before. We always grill ours. I have broiled them before but I hate the mess and the smell that lingers. So, I rarely do that. I've never even heard of celery root. I don't think it's even available here. If it is, I haven't seen it. What do you do with it?


It looks like strange root vegetable with a tangle of roots and sometimes some short, bitter stalks of celery. Some times it's called celeriac. My grandmother used to peel it, dice it and when it was cooked she served it hot with a vinaigrette dressing. It's just as good served this way cold. It's also delicious grated coarsely, blanched just a bit and dressed with a little chopped parsley and tossed with a bit of mayo, and a dab of mustard and served cold. It's good in vegie soup and stews. I like to put diced potatoes and celery root in soup to kind of surprise people. As a vegie side dish, it's good with diced potato and peas, served hot, dressed with a little bit of salt and pepper and butter. Its mild celery flavor works well in a lot of things in which you'd use root vegetables.

I know I have to turn up the heat on the kitchen stove to cook celery root, but this doesn't seem like an international act of hostility. Maybe I should have stared talking about cooking on NB.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> It looks like strange root vegetable with a tangle of roots and sometimes some short, bitter stalks of celery. Some times it's called celeriac. My grandmother used to peel it, dice it and when it was cooked she served it hot with a vinaigrette dressing. It's just as good served this way cold. It's also delicious grated coarsely, blanched just a bit and dressed with a little chopped parsley and tossed with a bit of mayo, and a dab of mustard and served cold. It's good in vegie soup and stews. I like to put diced potatoes and celery root in soup to kind of surprise people. As a vegie side dish, it's good with diced potato and peas, served hot, dressed with a little bit of salt and pepper and butter. Its mild celery flavor works well in a lot of things in which you'd use root vegetables.
> 
> I know I have to turn up the heat on the kitchen stove to cook celery root, but this doesn't seem like an international act of hostility. Maybe I should have stared talking about cooking on NB.


Thank you for sharing. Its sounds very interesting and versatile. I love celery.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think the problem is that too few citizens bother to vote, rather than voter fraud. Get real.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Why search for a solution when there's no problem. (Voter fraud.)


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm with you in Bedlam.



MaidInBedlam said:


> I consider most of the votes I've cast to be of little value. Still, I persist to vote. If you don't vote you get the government you deserve, as I've said before, and you have no grounds on which to criticize it. I'm not trying to insult you. This is what I believe about people in general who don't vote.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

All these things were true in the past. We'll have to see what the future brings. Thanks for reminding all.



Designer1234 said:


> I am NOT a fan of Arpaio - I agree completely. He was first elected when we were snowbirds in Arizona and he is an arrogant ass in my opinion. I have followed his interviews and the information about him and I wonder why he is allowed to get away with his type of activity.
> 
> We spent a lot of winters in Arizona and never got the feeling that it was a dangerous place to be or that there was trouble with the police etc. HOwever we were in a snowbird park and we rarely if ever went out unless in groups not because we were worried about it but because we just usually went out with friends. I absolutely enjoyed every moment we spent in Arizona. I have always wondered why he is re elected every term.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Talk about food anywhere you like. Yum.



MaidInBedlam said:


> It looks like strange root vegetable with a tangle of roots and sometimes some short, bitter stalks of celery. Some times it's called celeriac. My grandmother used to peel it, dice it and when it was cooked she served it hot with a vinaigrette dressing. It's just as good served this way cold. It's also delicious grated coarsely, blanched just a bit and dressed with a little chopped parsley and tossed with a bit of mayo, and a dab of mustard and served cold. It's good in vegie soup and stews. I like to put diced potatoes and celery root in soup to kind of surprise people. As a vegie side dish, it's good with diced potato and peas, served hot, dressed with a little bit of salt and pepper and butter. Its mild celery flavor works well in a lot of things in which you'd use root vegetables.
> 
> I know I have to turn up the heat on the kitchen stove to cook celery root, but this doesn't seem like an international act of hostility. Maybe I should have stared talking about cooking on NB.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> It looks like strange root vegetable with a tangle of roots and sometimes some short, bitter stalks of celery. Some times it's called celeriac. My grandmother used to peel it, dice it and when it was cooked she served it hot with a vinaigrette dressing. It's just as good served this way cold. It's also delicious grated coarsely, blanched just a bit and dressed with a little chopped parsley and tossed with a bit of mayo, and a dab of mustard and served cold. It's good in vegie soup and stews. I like to put diced potatoes and celery root in soup to kind of surprise people. As a vegie side dish, it's good with diced potato and peas, served hot, dressed with a little bit of salt and pepper and butter. Its mild celery flavor works well in a lot of things in which you'd use root vegetables.
> 
> I know I have to turn up the heat on the kitchen stove to cook celery root, but this doesn't seem like an international act of hostility. Maybe I should have stared talking about cooking on NB.


I love the taste of celery root, but I find I get obsessive-compulsive about peeling it, because of the millions of crevices. I could peel off about a quarter inch to be sure of getting it clean, but that seems so wasteful. So I rarely make it.

Enjoy it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> These aren't exactly "official" investigations either. Assuming that all of these studies were non biased and carried out correctly (which is assuming a lot), every one of them acknowledges fraud. They minimize that fraud by saying the numbers are too small to matter. While that may be true in a presidential election, local elections are often decided on very close margins. No one really knows whether it makes a difference or not.
> 
> I'm sick of talking about this because I think that even ONE illegal vote is too many. I understand that I'm in the minority and that all of you could post dozens of articles. I will still believe that voter fraud should be prevented and punished. Voter ID, may not be the way to do it but I've not heard any other suggestions.


This seems to be an emotional thing for you, not a rational one. And particularly punitive. Do you go around your yard looking for ants and killing every one, or do you assume that if they were a problem, you'd see them? It's the same with these votes.

The fact that there's never been an official (i.e., govt.-funded) study should indicate that nobody's found it to be a big enough problem to worry about. You should be happy to know it's not worth spending tax money on.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The Nebraska highway patrol has a history of making huge drug busts on I 80. I still think it's unacceptable to treat everyone as criminals. People end up complying because if they refuse, they're detained for hours.


Drug busts would be no big deal. I read about a town in Texas that that took in huge amounts of money just from stopping strangers. One even lost custody of her child for a few days.

This is what's going on, and it's fascinating, like a 6-car pileup: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/12/taken If The New Yorker is too liberal, here's something from a libertarian website: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/seizure-fever-the-war-on-property-rights/


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I think the problem is that too few citizens bother to vote, rather than voter fraud. Get real.


I think election fraud (e.g., losing all the votes from one district; giving people the wrong information about when and where to vote; rigging the machines so that they give votes for one candidate to another candidate) is a far worse problem than anything illegal voting can cause, one vote at a time. And those things _have_ happened.


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## busyworkerbee (May 6, 2012)

Cancer is a good description for terrorists of any persuasion. This particular form is spreading even over here in Australia where police arrested two men as suspected terrorist supporters of that organisation. Australia, on a whole, has been relatively clear of these types of events but I feel it is only a matter of time before something occurs here (especially with G20 coming up to provide excuse/cover). It would be so easy to do something similar to what happened in London with the trains at a few main stations. I also feel that the stuff they are spouting is a perversion of the original Muslim Faith and not true to the original Muslim Faith at all.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> It looks like strange root vegetable with a tangle of roots and sometimes some short, bitter stalks of celery. Some times it's called celeriac. My grandmother used to peel it, dice it and when it was cooked she served it hot with a vinaigrette dressing. It's just as good served this way cold. It's also delicious grated coarsely, blanched just a bit and dressed with a little chopped parsley and tossed with a bit of mayo, and a dab of mustard and served cold. It's good in vegie soup and stews. I like to put diced potatoes and celery root in soup to kind of surprise people. As a vegie side dish, it's good with diced potato and peas, served hot, dressed with a little bit of salt and pepper and butter. Its mild celery flavor works well in a lot of things in which you'd use root vegetables.
> 
> I know I have to turn up the heat on the kitchen stove to cook celery root, but this doesn't seem like an international act of hostility. Maybe I should have stared talking about cooking on NB.


You're refreshing. I like it that you can mix it up.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> All these things were true in the past. We'll have to see what the future brings. Thanks for reminding all.


As a non American, I don't feel I want to make any mention of my feelings about his ideas. I just wonder whether his speech was well received by most, or whether there are people who are not in favor of his approach.

It is a scary time. I know there are great divisions between the left and right- and that rarely do the two sides find something that is common ground. Is there a feeling that he
is on the right road?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> As a non American, I don't feel I want to make any mention of my feelings about his ideas. I just wonder whether his speech was well received by most, or whether there are people who are not in favor of his approach.
> 
> It is a scary time. I know there are great divisions between the left and right- and that rarely do the two sides find something that is common ground. Is there a feeling that he
> is on the right road?


I think in general his speech was well received by most. Of course Fox had plenty to say--their commentators complained that Obama should have sounded more hawkish and bloodthirsty ("He waffled. Why didn't he say, "We'll rest easier in our beds when we know that you [ISIS] have been wiped off the face of the earth?" It's obvious he's planning to negotiate and make nice with that garbage" etc etc." ).

I won't say what I think of that approach--issuing blood-curdling threats that will give the ISIS whackos every excuse they need to run wild and cut off more American heads--but it's obvious that the majority of Americans were satisfied with what Obama had to say.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you for sharing. Its sounds very interesting and versatile. I love celery.


If you love celery, you'll probably like celery root aka celeriac, I hope you can find some.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I think in general his speech was well received by most. Of course Fox had plenty to say--their commentators complained that Obama should have sounded more hawkish and bloodthirsty ("He waffled. Why didn't he say, "We'll rest easier in our beds when we know that you [ISIS] have been wiped off the face of the earth?" It's obvious he's planning to negotiate and make nice with that garbage" etc etc." ).
> 
> I won't say what I think of that approach--issuing blood-curdling threats that will give the ISIS whackos every excuse they need to run wild and cut off more American heads--but it's obvious that the majority of Americans were satisfied with what Obama had to say.


We've already had one Pres. who said something like "Come and get us" (I can't remember his precise words, but they were like that). It didn't help.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I love the taste of celery root, but I find I get obsessive-compulsive about peeling it, because of the millions of crevices. I could peel off about a quarter inch to be sure of getting it clean, but that seems so wasteful. So I rarely make it.
> Enjoy it.


That's the downside of celery root. I suspend my dislike of the waste and go from there.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> You're refreshing. I like it that you can mix it up.


Thanks. :-D :-D Maybe I should start a topic called "Crazy for Cooking" since I am, after all a maid in Bedlam...


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## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

New post on You Got to be Kidding's Blog for 9-11-14 

Thought for the Day
by yougottobekidding

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)

:thumbup:


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> I think in general his speech was well received by most. Of course Fox had plenty to say--their commentators complained that Obama should have sounded more hawkish and bloodthirsty ("He waffled. Why didn't he say, "We'll rest easier in our beds when we know that you [ISIS] have been wiped off the face of the earth?" It's obvious he's planning to negotiate and make nice with that garbage" etc etc." ).
> 
> I won't say what I think of that approach--issuing blood-curdling threats that will give the ISIS whackos every excuse they need to run wild and cut off more American heads--but it's obvious that the majority of Americans were satisfied with what Obama had to say.


*******************************************************************************************************
Why doesn't "quote reply" work every time it's used? I was a bit disappointed by the President's speech. I know he can't describe all the details about any plan to erase ISIS, but a slightly bigger hint would have been nice. Last night's speech seemed to be a blustering message to make Americans feel good.

Please note, this is a remark from a liberal. As I understand it, some of the RWNs think liberals never criticize the President.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

JeanWilkins said:


> New post on You Got to be Kidding's Blog for 9-11-14
> 
> Thought for the Day
> by yougottobekidding
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: from me, too. But do you know who Bertrand Russell was? Or that he wrote a book titled _Why I Am Not a Christian_? (The book jacket had the word "not" in green.)

Still, he said some very wise things, like the one you quote.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> *******************************************************************************************************
> Why doesn't "quote reply" work every time it's used? I was a bit disappointed by the President's speech. I know he can't describe all the details about any plan to erase ISIS, but a slightly bigger hint would have been nice. Last night's speech seemed to be a blustering message to make Americans feel good.
> 
> Please note, this is a remark from a liberal. As I understand it, some of the RWNs think liberals never criticize the President.


Quote Reply doesn't work if there are square brackets in the original text, as in "[ISIS]" (and now it won't work here). If you replace them with < >, voila!


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Quote Reply doesn't work if there are square brackets in the original text, as in "[ISIS]" (and now it won't work here). If you replace them with < >, voila!


I get it!! Thanks for enlighten me. :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

busyworkerbee said:


> Cancer is a good description for terrorists of any persuasion. This particular form is spreading even over here in Australia where police arrested two men as suspected terrorist supporters of that organisation. Australia, on a whole, has been relatively clear of these types of events but I feel it is only a matter of time before something occurs here (especially with G20 coming up to provide excuse/cover). It would be so easy to do something similar to what happened in London with the trains at a few main stations. I also feel that the stuff they are spouting is a perversion of the original Muslim Faith and not true to the original Muslim Faith at all.


If I give your message a :thumbup: , would you understand that it's your thought, not their acts, I'm agreeing with? :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I won't say what I think of that approach--issuing blood-curdling threats that will give the ISIS whackos every excuse they need to run wild and cut off more American heads--but it's obvious that the majority of Americans were satisfied with what Obama had to say.


 It just came to me: Bush told the terrorists "Bring it on!" And spoke of Crusades in the Middle East.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Thanks. :-D :-D Maybe I should start a topic called "Crazy for Cooking" since I am, after all a maid in Bedlam...


Would that make you a Chef in Bedlam?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: from me, too. But do you know who Bertrand Russell was? Or that he wrote a book titled _Why I Am Not a Christian_? (The book jacket had the word "not" in green.)
> 
> Still, he said some very wise things, like the one you quote.


Read that book as a teen and it helped to liberate me from the clutches of organized religions. Missed Obama last night but it is clear we are going to mire ourselves in more war crap. I guess I am ambivalent. Is IS really a threat to the US or are they concentrating more on the ME?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Read that book as a teen and it helped to liberate me from the clutches of organized religions. Missed Obama last night but it is clear we are going to mire ourselves in more war crap. I guess I am ambivalent. Is IS really a threat to the US or are they concentrating more on the ME?


Ba-dum bum!
Very good.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Read that book as a teen and it helped to liberate me from the clutches of organized religions. Missed Obama last night but it is clear we are going to mire ourselves in more war crap. I guess I am ambivalent. Is IS really a threat to the US or are they concentrating more on the ME?


Okay, now that I've given your joke a rim shot, let me point out that it was you, a week or two ago, who seemed to think ISIS was a threat everywhere.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Would that make you a Chef in Bedlam?


Sounds good to me. There's a Chef Ramsey who has a TV program call Hell's Kitchen. Maybe I should steal that title, considering how many times I've been told I'm going to Hell by some of those we know all too well.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Would that make you a Chef in Bedlam?


Check out the new topic I started called "Chef in Bedlam. PP, the title is all your fault :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :-D :-D


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Check out the new topic I started called "Chef in Bedlam. PP, the title is all your fault :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :-D :-D


I'll happily take the blame if you cook for me.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> *******************************************************************************************************
> Why doesn't "quote reply" work every time it's used? I was a bit disappointed by the President's speech. I know he can't describe all the details about any plan to erase ISIS, but a slightly bigger hint would have been nice. Last night's speech seemed to be a blustering message to make Americans feel good.
> 
> Please note, this is a remark from a liberal. As I understand it, some of the RWNs think liberals never criticize the President.


I'm not sure what there is for him to say, really. That we're now "coordinating" efforts with our arch-enemy, Iran? That the Syrians (who I believed were discovered releasing chlorine gas upon their own people) are now our comrades in arms? There's no question that we need to take strong action against ISIS, but oh what crazy folks and governments we're going to have to mix and mingle with for now.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I'll happily take the blame if you cook for me.


Same here, Purl. I get the distinct impression that Maid is one fine cook. I'd love to have dinner at her house!


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It just came to me: Bush told the terrorists "Bring it on!" And spoke of Crusades in the Middle East.


Bush was right about Iraq.

I know most of you despise Fox News, but have the courage to watch the video that Meagan Kelly replayed from 2007.

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2014/09/05/video-president-bush-predicted-exactly-what-were-seeing-in-iraq/

Bush's prediction was absolutely right, Obama pulled troops out too early and now Obama has to go back again. We still have troops in Germany and Japan, but none in Iraq. I believe that was done for political reasons (keeping faulty and ignorant campaign promises), now Obama has to refight the Iraq War. There will be 'boots on the ground' within a year.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Bush was right about Iraq.
> 
> I know most of you despise Fox News, but have the courage to watch the video that Meagan Kelly replayed from 2007.
> 
> ...


Hopefully not ours...

Bush may be right in that the Middle East seems to need a long-term chaperon or baby sitter to stay out of trouble, but I see no reason why we should have to fill that role. Let the UN ultimately take over, or let the Middle Eastern countries police there own after the fighting stops. We're talking decades-long occupation to keep the peace--something we as a nation should shudder at.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Drug busts would be no big deal. I read about a town in Texas that that took in huge amounts of money just from stopping strangers. One even lost custody of her child for a few days.
> 
> This is what's going on, and it's fascinating, like a 6-car pileup: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/12/taken If The New Yorker is too liberal, here's something from a libertarian website: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/seizure-fever-the-war-on-property-rights/


These are both great articles (especially the New Yorker article). Absolutely everyone should read these and pass them along. I know, I will! I had read about this happening in a county in Nevada with casino winnings, but I didn't know the problem was so widespread.

I don't really object to liberal sources unless they're expressing opinion, rather than fact, or presenting their own biased polls or research. This article gave facts! Thanks for sharing it!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> Bush was right about Iraq.
> 
> I know most of you despise Fox News, but have the courage to watch the video that Meagan Kelly replayed from 2007.
> 
> ...


If Bush did not push in, Obama would not have to pull out.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm not sure what there is for him to say, really. That we're now "coordinating" efforts with our arch-enemy, Iran? That the Syrians (who I believed were discovered releasing chlorine gas upon their own people) are now our comrades in arms? There's no question that we need to take strong action against ISIS, but oh what crazy folks and governments we're going to have to mix and mingle with for now.


Just read a news story that ordinary Iranians believe the US created IS to counter their influence in the middle east:

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/09/12/04/43/islamic-state-america-iran-invention


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Hopefully not ours...
> 
> Bush may be right in that the Middle East seems to need a long-term chaperon or baby sitter to stay out of trouble, but I see no reason why we should have to fill that role. Let the UN ultimately take over, or let the Middle Eastern countries police there own after the fighting stops. We're talking decades-long occupation to keep the peace--something we as a nation should shudder at.


If we had stayed in until Iraq was stabilized, the world would not be in this situation. Obama pulled troops out too quickly and left a vacuum for ISIS (formally Al Qaeda) to prosper. He flaunted Bin Laden's death. He called ISIS a JV team. He drew a line in the sand with Syria, they crossed it, and he cowardly backed down over and over again. As hard as he tries to deny it, this is now his war of his making. He is like a child poking a balloon. He says, see I dented the balloon, and ignores the bulge on the other side. This is from the man that got the Nobel Peace Prize before he took office. That was a joke. His foreign policy is a joke. And now he is the laughing stock of the world................so (unfortunately ) the joke is on and is him.

Hope this doesn't interfere with his remaining vacations and golf games.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> If Bush did not push in, Obama would not have to pull out.


If terrorists had not murdered 3,000 Americans, Bush would not have had that decision to make.

Have your dirty bomb gas mask yet? I bet you feel so much safer in NYC than you did 13 years ago


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Just read a news story that ordinary Iranians believe the US created IS to counter their influence in the middle east:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/09/12/04/43/islamic-state-america-iran-invention


Yeah right. Just like the Jews knew about 9.11.01 and did not go to work that day


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Hopefully not ours...
> 
> Bush may be right in that the Middle East seems to need a long-term chaperon or baby sitter to stay out of trouble, but I see no reason why we should have to fill that role. Let the UN ultimately take over, or let the Middle Eastern countries police there own after the fighting stops. We're talking decades-long occupation to keep the peace--something we as a nation should shudder at.


In his speech, President Obama appeared firm in his conviction that middle eastern nations must step up and fight this IS scourge as part of the coalition of countries.


----------



## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: from me, too. But do you know who Bertrand Russell was? Or that he wrote a book titled _Why I Am Not a Christian_? (The book jacket had the word "not" in green.)
> 
> Still, he said some very wise things, like the one you quote.


I only posted this from "You've got to be kidding" for my own reasons. It had nothing to do with rather he is an atheist or not. It just seemed to fit somehow. If you enjoyed the quote, thank you.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Bush was right about Iraq.
> 
> I know most of you despise Fox News, but have the courage to watch the video that Meagan Kelly replayed from 2007.
> 
> ...


Then Bush shouldn't have negotiated that we'd leave the Iraqis to their own devices. Obama was putting that decision into effect. The Iraqis didn't want us to leave troops and so we couldn't and didn't.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> If we had stayed in until Iraq was stabilized, the world would not be in this situation. Obama pulled troops out too quickly and left a vacuum for ISIS (formally Al Qaeda) to prosper. He flaunted Bin Laden's death. He called ISIS a JV team. He drew a line in the sand with Syria, they crossed it, and he cowardly backed down over and over again. As hard as he tries to deny it, this is now his war of his making. He is like a child poking a balloon. He says, see I dented the balloon, and ignores the bulge on the other side. This is from the man that got the Nobel Peace Prize before he took office. That was a joke. His foreign policy is a joke. And now he is the laughing stock of the world................so (unfortunately ) the joke is on and is him.
> 
> Hope this doesn't interfere with his remaining vacations and golf games.


If we have to stay until Iraq is stabilized, we'll be there until the end of time. That region has always been in conflict. The only "stability" they had was Saddam Hussein's iron fist. Oh yeah...Bush got rid of that, didn't he. Oops.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Yeah right. Just like the Jews knew about 9.11.01 and did not go to work that day


Did a bit of a search about this and it seems that your statement is a lame conspiracy.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> If terrorists had not murdered 3,000 Americans, Bush would not have had that decision to make.
> 
> Have your dirty bomb gas mask yet? I bet you feel so much safer in NYC than you did 13 years ago


That sounds so clever. Until one remembers that Iraq had absolutely NOTHING to do with 9-11. And that in fact he was an enemy of bin Laden. We went to Iraq for nothing. The region was destabilized for nothing. Bush caused the cration of ISIS. For nothing. Gee, thanks. For nothing.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> If terrorists had not murdered 3,000 Americans, Bush would not have had that decision to make.
> 
> Have your dirty bomb gas mask yet? I bet you feel so much safer in NYC than you did 13 years ago


I sincerely doubt that 9/11 had much to do with Bush going into Iraq.

I feel just fine in NYC. Rather die of a bomb blast than the brain cancer my SIL is dying from.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> If we had stayed in until Iraq was stabilized, the world would not be in this situation. Obama pulled troops out too quickly and left a vacuum for ISIS (formally Al Qaeda) to prosper. He flaunted Bin Laden's death. He called ISIS a JV team. He drew a line in the sand with Syria, they crossed it, and he cowardly backed down over and over again. As hard as he tries to deny it, this is now his war of his making. He is like a child poking a balloon. He says, see I dented the balloon, and ignores the bulge on the other side. This is from the man that got the Nobel Peace Prize before he took office. That was a joke. His foreign policy is a joke. And now he is the laughing stock of the world................so (unfortunately ) the joke is on and is him.
> 
> Hope this doesn't interfere with his remaining vacations and golf games.


Sorry, LTL--Bush himself signed US-Iraq Status of Forces Agreement, which gave us until 12-11 to get out butts out of there. Any troops remaining after that date could have been prosecuted by the Iraqi courts.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> In his speech, President Obama appeared firm in his conviction that middle eastern nations must step up and fight this IS scourge as part of the coalition of countries.


Thanks goodness for that!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Just read a news story that ordinary Iranians believe the US created IS to counter their influence in the middle east:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/09/12/04/43/islamic-state-america-iran-invention


I agree with them! Al Qaida too!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Same here, Purl. I get the distinct impression that Maid is one fine cook. I'd love to have dinner at her house!


Me, too. She seems to enjoy it, and she's very good at planning. I guess I'd better go to Chef in Bedlam.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> If we had stayed in until Iraq was stabilized, the world would not be in this situation. Obama pulled troops out too quickly and left a vacuum for ISIS (formally Al Qaeda) to prosper. He flaunted Bin Laden's death. He called ISIS a JV team. He drew a line in the sand with Syria, they crossed it, and he cowardly backed down over and over again. As hard as he tries to deny it, this is now his war of his making. He is like a child poking a balloon. He says, see I dented the balloon, and ignores the bulge on the other side. This is from the man that got the Nobel Peace Prize before he took office. That was a joke. His foreign policy is a joke. And now he is the laughing stock of the world................so (unfortunately ) the joke is on and is him.
> 
> Hope this doesn't interfere with his remaining vacations and golf games.


Iraq will never be stabilized. Heck, the majority of the middle east will never be stabilized!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Hopefully not ours...
> 
> Bush may be right in that the Middle East seems to need a long-term chaperon or baby sitter to stay out of trouble, but I see no reason why we should have to fill that role. Let the UN ultimately take over, or let the Middle Eastern countries police there own after the fighting stops. We're talking decades-long occupation to keep the peace--something we as a nation should shudder at.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> If Bush did not push in, Obama would not have to pull out.


You're right. I don't see how spending money on Iraq, which will do us no good (not even get us any oil), is any better than spending money on the ACA or something else that will be used by Americans.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> If we had stayed in until Iraq was stabilized, the world would not be in this situation. Obama pulled troops out too quickly and left a vacuum for ISIS (formally Al Qaeda) to prosper. He flaunted Bin Laden's death. He called ISIS a JV team. He drew a line in the sand with Syria, they crossed it, and he cowardly backed down over and over again. As hard as he tries to deny it, this is now his war of his making. He is like a child poking a balloon. He says, see I dented the balloon, and ignores the bulge on the other side. This is from the man that got the Nobel Peace Prize before he took office. That was a joke. His foreign policy is a joke. And now he is the laughing stock of the world................so (unfortunately ) the joke is on and is him.
> 
> Hope this doesn't interfere with his remaining vacations and golf games.


Being involved in two wars never interfered with Bush's greater number of vacations or his mountain biking; doesn't his successor deserve the same?

Just how long were we expected to stay in Iraq? When we first went in and destabilized the country, the admin said a few weeks. Then the time line got longer, and eventually McCain was ready to be fighting there with no end. By the time Obama came into office, the time for pulling out had already been decided, so I bet if he'd stayed in for another couple of years, you'd have complained about that. Damned if he does and damned if he don't.

If we hadn't destabilized Iraq in the first place, you'd have no Monday-morning quarterbacking to do.

As for the Nobel Prize, I agree: that was way, way too premature. I wonder whether the prize committee members have trouble sleeping nights.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> If terrorists had not murdered 3,000 Americans, Bush would not have had that decision to make.
> 
> Have your dirty bomb gas mask yet? I bet you feel so much safer in NYC than you did 13 years ago


BUT, they weren't Iraqi terrorists!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> If terrorists had not murdered 3,000 Americans, Bush would not have had that decision to make.
> 
> Have your dirty bomb gas mask yet? I bet you feel so much safer in NYC than you did 13 years ago


What did 9/11 have to do with Iraq? Nothing. Bush and Cheney had been wanting to go in there for a while, and they used this excuse, lying to Congress and the UN in order to get their way. But instead of being drawn and quartered, as they should be, they're treated like elder statesmen, which ought to be good for a laugh.

And guess what. 9/11 came, and nothing has happened. Do you have a snorkel ready so you can jump in the lake to hide? We're prepared here in NY; are you?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Iraq will never be stabilized. Heck, the majority of the middle east will never be stabilized!


I so agree with you, Nebraska. The region of the world is a mess, and our monkeying around there only makes it worse. We can use brute force to try to keep order, but lessons about Peace and Brotherhood are going to have to be taught by their fellow Muslims.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

JeanWilkins said:


> I only posted this from "You've got to be kidding" for my own reasons. It had nothing to do with rather he is an atheist or not. It just seemed to fit somehow. If you enjoyed the quote, thank you.


I did enjoy it, and it fit to a T. I've never seen "You've got to be kidding." Sounds like something I'd enjoy. Thank you for the introduction.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You're right. I don't see how spending money on Iraq, which will do us no good (not even get us any oil), is any better than spending money on the ACA or something else that will be used by Americans.


That is why I am getting leary of this whole intervention against ISIS. What would stop another group from forming? How many kids will be killed? Is there an exit plan? I missed yesterday's speech.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> What did 9/11 have to do with Iraq? Nothing. Bush and Cheney had been wanting to go in there for a while, and they used this excuse, lying to Congress and the UN in order to get their way. But instead of being drawn and quartered, as they should be, they're treated like elder statesmen, which ought to be good for a laugh.
> 
> And guess what. 9/11 came, and nothing has happened. Do you have a snorkel ready so you can jump in the lake to hide? We're prepared here in NY; are you?


Yes. We live in a city with a heavy military presence, and it's been eerily quiet today. Not too many people out and around, but lots and lots of police cars cruising about or parked along the main drag. It'll be a relief when the clock strikes midnight.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Then Bush shouldn't have negotiated that we'd leave the Iraqis to their own devices. Obama was putting that decision into effect. The Iraqis didn't want us to leave troops and so we couldn't and didn't.


Right. But I think her faction is suffering from premature Alzheimer's, because they constantly forget things like that.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> If we have to stay until Iraq is stabilized, we'll be there until the end of time. That region has always been in conflict. The only "stability" they had was Saddam Hussein's iron fist. Oh yeah...Bush got rid of that, didn't he. Oops.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Why would anyone get carried away by today being 9/11? The bad guys know that America is on high alert today. Better to strike on some meaningless date.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Did a bit of a search about this and it seems that your statement is a lame conspiracy.


I think she was being sarcastic. That is something some Arabs have said, but nobody really thinks it's true. She's just comparing it to what you said about "a news story that ordinary Iranians believe the US created IS to counter their influence in the middle east" as something equally false.

Don't you think SQM or I would have gone for her throat if we thought she'd meant it?


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No actually, I don't! I just want to stop non citizens from voting! To you have any ideas?
> 
> You say the Constitution allows us to travel freely from state to state? Apparently it doesn't anymore. The supreme court has upheld the right of the police to stop you and interrogate you when you've done absolutely nothing wrong. They call it a safety check. Once we were traveling east on interstate 80, in western Nebraska. We were forced off the interstate into a rest area. The state patrol asked my husband for his papers and asked him to turn on his headlights. Mind you, it was daytime, so we weren't required to use headlights. The officer then interrogated my husband. He asked where are you going, what is your business there? Where are you traveling from, what was your business there? I was outraged! It seemed as if we had crossed a border into Russia. I wrote letters to the highway patrol, the governor, and all of my state's congressmen and senators. The response was the same. It was a safety check. It's legal. And that's what's happening in our country!


This is what people of color and poor people and people with long hair go thru everyday. It is called profiling. But more sinister is the fact that these practices are also practice for controlling the entire public. Of course, just like in Ferguson, these stops are also entrapments to try and rake in more money locally. Once I was driving thur a town called Deposit in NYS and we were stopped with our NYC license plates. A ticket was given for some bogus charge but it was paid as no one was going to travel back to this little town to fight the ticket. If white middle/working people start getting stopped like this more frequently maybe some light bulbs will come on and instigate a coalescing of people.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> That sounds so clever. Until one remembers that Iraq had absolutely NOTHING to do with 9-11. And that in fact he was an enemy of bin Laden. We went to Iraq for nothing. The region was destabilized for nothing. Bush caused the creation of ISIS. For nothing. Gee, thanks. For nothing.


Brilliant. And all for nothing.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I sincerely doubt that 9/11 had much to do with Bush going into Iraq.
> 
> I feel just fine in NYC. Rather die of a bomb blast than the brain cancer my SIL is dying from.


Do we get to choose?


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Joe Arpaio is a pretty bad guy, but he appeals to the "law and order" idiots who think law is only about punishment. And he's smart enough to know to keep away from anyone with the money or connections to kick him out of office - hence, picking on people of color and the poor.


He plays to racism and that is why he gets re-elected. Racism is not just lynchings which, believe it or not, is the only thing people think of when the issue arises. Racism is so rampant and so much of it is subtle or below the surface as it is institutionalized and not easily identified--unless you are the brunt of it. People are in such denial and so resistant to look at it that it is easy to play with them. The Tea Party relies on this heavily.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry, LTL--Bush himself signed US-Iraq Status of Forces Agreement, which gave us until 12-11 to get out butts out of there. Any troops remaining after that date could have been prosecuted by the Iraqi courts.


She claims to be much younger than us (not you, but the rest of us), but she has serious memory problems when it comes to anything done pre-Obama. I think she's much older than she lets on.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Do we get to choose?


If stricken by a deadly disease, you have a choice to suffer with it or jump off the roof of your building.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> First of all, neither of these articles made reference to any type of official investigation. All statements were made by groups that may or may not have an agenda. Second of all, one quote from the first article makes my point. "One reason there's scant evidence of voter fraud is that no one checks ID at the polls."


While you may be right that the reports were general and did not provide sources, there have been studies and that is the basis of these comments. You can do the research.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Yes. We live in a city with a heavy military presence, and it's been eerily quiet today. Not too many people out and around, but lots and lots of police cars cruising about or parked along the main drag. It'll be a relief when the clock strikes midnight.


I was in midtown Manhattan this afternoon, and it was exactly like any other day. Buses just as full, traffic just as heavy. No extra police presence - and I walked past the Empire State Building, with the usual number of tourists waiting to go in. You'd have thought it was 9/12.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> He plays to racism and that is why he gets re-elected. Racism is not just lynchings which, believe it or not, is the only thing people think of when the issue arises. Racism is so rampant and so much of it is subtle or below the surface as it is institutionalized and not easily identified--unless you are the brunt of it. People are in such denial and so resistant to look at it that it is easy to play with them. The Tea Party relies on this heavily.


Thank you. Do people really believe that if there are no lynchings, there's no racism? Fooling themselves must come easy.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> If stricken by a deadly disease, you have a choice to suffer with it or jump off the roof of your building.


I guess black* humor is the only way to deal with her situation.

*Not in the sense of race.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I think she was being sarcastic. That is something some Arabs have said, but nobody really thinks it's true. She's just comparing it to what you said about "a news story that ordinary Iranians believe the US created IS to counter their influence in the middle east" as something equally false.
> 
> Don't you think SQM or I would have gone for her throat if we thought she'd meant it?


I get it. But when I googled the question re Jews dying on 9/11 I was shocked at the number of sites there are on the subject.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I get it. But when I googled the question re Jews dying on 9/11 I was shocked at the number of sites there are on the subject.


I think I missed something here. What was posted ?


----------



## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

I listened to President Obama last night and completely agree. At least there won't be as many casualties from air strikes.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Speaking of vacation time taken by people in high office (including those in Australia or anywhere), I'd be willing to bet that due to the high and constant stress the office would place on the incumbent, time off and how often to take it may be prescribed? I would hope there would be a psychiatrist or psychologist on staff as well as a general physician to monitor the incumbent's mental health.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> I think I missed something here. What was posted ?


Not much. Just an exchange between the Wombat and LTL:

Wombatnomore wrote:
"Just read a news story that ordinary Iranians believe the US created IS to counter their influence in the middle east:

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/09/12/04/43/islamic-state-america-iran-invention "

LTL's response: Yeah right. Just like the Jews knew about 9.11.01 and did not go to work that day


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I think I missed something here. What was posted ?


http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-282629-63.html


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

I heard on NBC this a.m. that all the area birds had left the area. Same thing with mice, ect. when they feel a Ship will be in danger.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Not much. Just an exchange between the Wombat and LTL:
> 
> Wombatnomore wrote:
> "Just read a news story that ordinary Iranians believe the US created IS to counter their influence in the middle east:
> ...


Lakes was being sarcastic. Don't fret.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Did a bit of a search about this and it seems that your statement is a lame conspiracy.


shaking head

Idiocy, if you think I believe that.

But I will say that I was on the turnpikes yesterday and there was very little traffic. Very few trucks and at the time it made for smooth travel. But I have never been on the PA Turnpike and have seen so few 18 wheelers, and I usually try to drive on Sunday mornings when there are fewer trucks. Rather eerie now that I think about it


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> shaking head
> 
> Idiocy, if you think I believe that.
> 
> But I will say that I was on the turnpikes yesterday and there was very little traffic. Very few trucks and at the time it made for smooth travel. But I have never been on the PA Turnpike and have seen so few 18 wheelers, and I usually try to drive on Sunday mornings when there are fewer trucks. Rather eerie now that I think about it


The others explained my mistake. I apologise.

Australia's terror alert level was raised to high today. At a finals Australian Football League match this evening, there were wall to wall police. They were everywhere and we're told to expect this from now on.

But how can the police prevent these lone wolves attacking individuals in the street like that poor British soldier Lee Rigby in May last year? That is one way they'll operate. Australian intelligence has detected a lot of recent 'chatter' about plans to terrorize the place thus the raising of the terror alert. Scary stuff.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

The governments want to scare us so they can create a greater police state. Don't fall for it.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> The governments want to scare us so they can create a greater police state. Don't fall for it.


I just googled 'Australia police state' and found a radical forum which is current and I could not believe the racist content! Embarrassing...


----------



## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Gigi: I agree too. My motto is taken from FDR: 'Speak Softly and Carry A Big Stick.'


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> The governments want to scare us so they can create a greater police state. Don't fall for it.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I just googled 'Australia police state' and found a radical forum which is current and I could not believe the racist content! Embarrassing...


Was that the one with Adman75
Living the dream!

Boy, I really think he smoked a bad joint here, or perhaps cut his coke with baby powder. I see he wants to go and live overseas, well I will not be standing in his way. Compared us to North Korea???????? It is nutters like that who give Oz a bad name.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Was that the one with Adman75
> Living the dream!
> 
> Boy, I really think he smoked a bad joint here, or perhaps cut his coke with baby powder. I see he wants to go and live overseas, well I will not be standing in his way. Compared us to North Korea???????? It is nutters like that who give Oz a bad name.


Must be this...

http://www.topix.com/member/profile/adman75

Yes, the comments are pretty ludicrous. Never occurred to any of those folks that they're speaking freely, with no apparent fear that the Australian police and/security forces will kick down their door in response and seize them and their computers. It's the same thing here--conservatives blab on and on about what a tyrant Obama is and how the US has been turned into a police state, somehow not grasping the fact that such talk would earn you 50+ years in a true police state.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Was that the one with Adman75
> Living the dream!
> 
> Boy, I really think he smoked a bad joint here, or perhaps cut his coke with baby powder. I see he wants to go and live overseas, well I will not be standing in his way. Compared us to North Korea???????? It is nutters like that who give Oz a bad name.


Listen to the talk of Our Own Little Ol' Ms Eve. Could she have been a stoner in her day? Hope so.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> Listen to the talk of Our Own Little Ol' Ms Eve. Could she have been a stoner in her day? Hope so.


Never touched drugs in my life, I just make my living by selling them. Oh, by the way I posted your last order a few minutes ago but I wanted to tell you that your cheque bounced, so I may have to send the heavies around. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Never touched drugs in my life, I just make my living by selling them. Oh, by the way I posted your last order a few minutes ago but I wanted to tell you that your cheque bounced, so I may have to send the heavies around. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Our Droll Ms. Eve. At this point in my life, I will welcome the heavies if they are attractive.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Must be this...
> 
> http://www.topix.com/member/profile/adman75
> 
> Yes, the comments are pretty ludicrous. Never occurred to any of those folks that they're speaking freely, with no apparent fear that the Australian police and/security forces will kick down their door in response and seize them and their computers. It's the same thing here--conservatives blab on and on about what a tyrant Obama is and how the US has been turned into a police state, somehow not grasping the fact that such talk would earn you 50+ years in a true police state.


That would have required the use of logic, a facility in short supply on the right.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Was that the one with Adman75
> Living the dream!
> 
> Boy, I really think he smoked a bad joint here, or perhaps cut his coke with baby powder. I see he wants to go and live overseas, well I will not be standing in his way. Compared us to North Korea???????? It is nutters like that who give Oz a bad name.


Yes, that's it. It seems it's well known on the site that he is a w----r. Others on the site were just as vicious I noticed.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> Our Droll Ms. Eve. At this point in my life, I will welcome the heavies if they are attractive.


No they are not attractive, they are butt ugly. All of them are bald, apart from the nasal hair and hairs growing out of their ears. They all having either missing teeth or black teeth, a side effect of the drugs they take. I pay them in drugs not cash. They slur when they talk and slurp when they eat. Most people just pay up to get rid of them. Do not, under any circumstances, invite them into your home. I repeat, do not, under any circumstances, invite them into your home. You will never get rid of them and they will eat you out of house and home and they will send you down to the pub for a slab of Carlton Draught. Another word of warning, do not bring them home XXXX, the Queensland beer, as they really sends them over the top. Oh, and by the way my calling them 'the heavies' relates to their weight. All of them weight in at over 160 kg each, that is over 350 lbs or 25 stone, most of it pure flab. But then there is no accounting for different tastes, what is one person's cuddly wuddly is another's double yuck.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Must be this...
> 
> http://www.topix.com/member/profile/adman75
> 
> Yes, the comments are pretty ludicrous. Never occurred to any of those folks that they're speaking freely, with no apparent fear that the Australian police and/security forces will kick down their door in response and seize them and their computers. It's the same thing here--conservatives blab on and on about what a tyrant Obama is and how the US has been turned into a police state, somehow not grasping the fact that such talk would earn you 50+ years in a true police state.


We have just raised our terror alert to 'high'. It has been on 'moderate' since the Bali bombing. The head of the Federal Police has issued a warning that they will be monitoring the chatter on chat sites, which I guess would mean our beloved KP also. They are beefing up security at the footy finals this weekend but the major concern will be the G20 meeting in Brisbane later in the year. But if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

mmorris said:


> Gigi: I agree too. My motto is taken from FDR: 'Speak Softly and Carry A Big Stick.'


That was Teddy Roosevelt.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> No they are not attractive, they are butt ugly. All of them are bald, apart from the nasal hair and hairs growing out of their ears. They all having either missing teeth or black teeth, a side effect of the drugs they take. I pay them in drugs not cash. They slur when they talk and slurp when they eat. Most people just pay up to get rid of them. Do not, under any circumstances, invite them into your home. I repeat, do not, under any circumstances, invite them into your home. You will never get rid of them and they will eat you out of house and home and they will send you down to the pub for a slab of Carlton Draught. Another word of warning, do not bring them home XXXX, the Queensland beer, as they really sends them over the top. Oh, and by the way my calling them 'the heavies' relates to their weight. All of them weight in at over 160 kg each, that is over 350 lbs or 25 stone, most of it pure flab. But then there is no accounting for different tastes, what is one person's cuddly wuddly is another's double yuck.


giggle - sound dreadful


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

LTL's response: Yeah right. Just like the Jews knew about 9.11.01 and did not go to work that day



SQM said:


> Lakes was being sarcastic. Don't fret.


 Sarcasm isn't always funny though. Better to be sarcastic about something less nasty. jmo. If it was quoting an actual statement It isn't very funny . jmo. However , as you are closer to the situation than I am , if we shouldn't fret about it I wont. It surprises me that you weren't bothered by it actually. I was. I wonder why statements like that are repeated and I wonder why you were not upset. oh well, guess I am just upset by statements like that no matter who is being denigrated, blacks, Jews, hispanics, gays, women and on and on. My sense of humor has faded as I get older and learn more about the world. Repeating stuff like that just accentuates the original statment. another opinion of mine. Not against LTL although she will likely think I am only complaining about her post. I am just surprised at the reaction to it.
---------------------------------------
by the way. Where is Marilynknits? I haven't seen a post of hers for awhile. I hope she is okay. It could be I have just missed her posts but usually I would see her posting often. better send her a pm to make sure she is okahy.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> LTL's response: Yeah right. Just like the Jews knew about 9.11.01 and did not go to work that day
> 
> Sarcasm isn't always funny though. Better to be sarcastic about something less nasty. jmo. If it was quoting an actual statement It isn't very funny . jmo. However , as you are closer to the situation than I am , if we shouldn't fret about it I wont. It surprises me that you weren't bothered by it actually. I was. I wonder why statements like that are repeated and I wonder why you were not upset. oh well, guess I am just upset by statements like that no matter who is being denigrated, blacks, Jews, hispanics, gays, women and on and on. My sense of humor has faded as I get older and learn more about the world. Repeating stuff like that just accentuates the original statment. another opinion of mine. Not against LTL although she will likely think I am only complaining about her post. I am just surprised at the reaction to it.
> ---------------------------------------
> by the way. Where is Marilynknits? I haven't seen a post of hers for awhile. I hope she is okay. It could be I have just missed her posts but usually I would see her posting often. better send her a pm to make sure she is okahy.


Marilyn was on yesterday, I believe. Maybe not on this thread, however.

In fact, just 5 minutes ago she posted on Current Events, and yesterday on LOLL.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> No they are not attractive, they are butt ugly. All of them are bald, apart from the nasal hair and hairs growing out of their ears. They all having either missing teeth or black teeth, a side effect of the drugs they take. I pay them in drugs not cash. They slur when they talk and slurp when they eat. Most people just pay up to get rid of them. Do not, under any circumstances, invite them into your home. I repeat, do not, under any circumstances, invite them into your home. You will never get rid of them and they will eat you out of house and home and they will send you down to the pub for a slab of Carlton Draught. Another word of warning, do not bring them home XXXX, the Queensland beer, as they really sends them over the top. Oh, and by the way my calling them 'the heavies' relates to their weight. All of them weight in at over 160 kg each, that is over 350 lbs or 25 stone, most of it pure flab. But then there is no accounting for different tastes, what is one person's cuddly wuddly is another's double yuck.


They smell good, though. Right?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> No they are not attractive, they are butt ugly. All of them are bald, apart from the nasal hair and hairs growing out of their ears. They all having either missing teeth or black teeth, a side effect of the drugs they take. I pay them in drugs not cash. They slur when they talk and slurp when they eat. Most people just pay up to get rid of them. Do not, under any circumstances, invite them into your home. I repeat, do not, under any circumstances, invite them into your home. You will never get rid of them and they will eat you out of house and home and they will send you down to the pub for a slab of Carlton Draught. Another word of warning, do not bring them home XXXX, the Queensland beer, as they really sends them over the top. Oh, and by the way my calling them 'the heavies' relates to their weight. All of them weight in at over 160 kg each, that is over 350 lbs or 25 stone, most of it pure flab. But then there is no accounting for different tastes, what is one person's cuddly wuddly is another's double yuck.


Are you dating, Ms. Eve, or are you married? You are being very descriptive ce soir.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> That sounds so clever. Until one remembers that Iraq had absolutely NOTHING to do with 9-11. And that in fact he was an enemy of bin Laden. We went to Iraq for nothing. The region was destabilized for nothing. Bush caused the cration of ISIS. For nothing. Gee, thanks. For nothing.


I am catching up here after many pages and comments but feel this post needs a rebut. Iraq was not destabilized for nothing. It really was a roaring success for the oil corporations. Further, and maybe even more importantly, the neo-con plan was to destabilize the region for a number of reasons. One reason was to destroy any unity between Arab States. Another reason was to plant military bases in Iraq when that was one country they had none. If you look at a map of military bases pre- and post-Iraq war(s) you will see the number of military bases increased probably 5 fold. So the CIA and the military and the corporate moguls now have intimate access to oil, gas and Russia. I have stated many times that the Mid-east disruption of the corporate march eastward to Russia and China. Today we see this being played out with US instigation of disruption and divisiveness in Ukraine, battleships in the waters around China, efforts to get Japan to remilitarize, and NATO moving closer to the Russian boarders despite a treaty agreement a few years back to not move any closer. Bush and the Neo-cons referred to the New World Order. Obama uses a different phrase which escapes me now --something like Total ????? Dominance. Same difference in my book.

Iraq had been on the drawing board for over a year with a planned military invasion. 911 was the catastrophic event, akin to Pearl Harbor, needed to scare the public into compliance to accept the bloodless coup in the US as revealed in the Patriot Act I. This document was written well before 911 as it was soooo long that it would have taken months to write, not 6 weeks in the midst of national chaos and fears from 911.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

SQM said:


> I sincerely doubt that 9/11 had much to do with Bush going into Iraq.
> 
> I feel just fine in NYC. Rather die of a bomb blast than the brain cancer my SIL is dying from.


911 had everything to do with Bush invading Iraq--it was the planned excuse to do so. You statement would have more validity if you said Iraq had nothing to do with 911.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you. Do people really believe that if there are no lynchings, there's no racism? Fooling themselves must come easy.


Many people do believe that. Years ago now, I was part of an interviewing committee for a new school superintendent. He was from the Ithica area. We asked him how he dealt with racism in the schools. His response: oh we have no problem "since THEY stopped marching." Here was a bright man who was as ignorant as they came, but oh so typical. I found the teachers were no different denying racism when our children of color were being emotionally and mentally assaulted daily or, being set up to be criminalized. Are you aware of the concept "school to prison pipeline?" I work with this regularly.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

mmorris said:


> I listened to President Obama last night and completely agree. At least there won't be as many casualties from air strikes.


Huh? You mean no white boy casualties. Don't the people in the ME being bombed count? All the women, children, dialed, older people, etc.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Not much. Just an exchange between the Wombat and LTL:
> 
> Wombatnomore wrote:
> "Just read a news story that ordinary Iranians believe the US created IS to counter their influence in the middle east:
> ...


It is true that the US and Israel were materially instrumental in creating ISIS and still support them despite the rhetoric in this country. Read this detailed article.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39603.htm

There was also an article in an Israeli paper with a photo of Netanyahu at a hospital set up in Israel for the wounded IS fighters. He was supporting these people and the hospital.
I believe the paper was a conservative one.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Must be this...
> 
> http://www.topix.com/member/profile/adman75
> 
> Yes, the comments are pretty ludicrous. Never occurred to any of those folks that they're speaking freely, with no apparent fear that the Australian police and/security forces will kick down their door in response and seize them and their computers. It's the same thing here--conservatives blab on and on about what a tyrant Obama is and how the US has been turned into a police state, somehow not grasping the fact that such talk would earn you 50+ years in a true police state.


But talk is cheap and most people run their mouth with nothing behind it. To be sure these things are recorded and monitored in some fashion.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> 911 had everything to do with Bush invading Iraq--it was the planned excuse to do so. You statement would have more validity if you said Iraq had nothing to do with 911.


I would say PART of the plan. 911 served many purposes to some.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> It is true that the US and Israel were materially instrumental in creating ISIS and still support them despite the rhetoric in this country. Read this detailed article.
> 
> http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39603.htm
> 
> ...


I'm not familiar with this website, but the information in this article is very similar and sometimes the same, as the information I've collected over the years. You might be interested in reading this article. Its a little dated so it doesn't include ISIS, but ties a lot of the same information.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/the-wars-in-the-middle-east-and-north-africa-are-not-just-about-oil-theyre-also-about-gas.html


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

tamarque said:


> 911 had everything to do with Bush invading Iraq--it was the planned excuse to do so. You statement would have more validity if you said Iraq had nothing to do with 911.


Why do I remember the fantasy that "Weapons of Mass Destruction" was the most successful pitch to get us to go to war with Iraq? So if inverted sentence please you, I will write:

A successful sales pitch for the US to go to war with Iraq was a lie sold to the American public re: Weapons of Mass Destruction.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Why do I remember the fantasy that "Weapons of Mass Destruction" was the most successful pitch to get us to go to war with Iraq? So if inverted sentence please you, I will write:
> 
> A successful sales pitch for the US to go to war with Iraq was a lie sold to the American public re: Weapons of Mass Destruction.


Only successful for some. There were plans to go into both Iraq and Afghanistan before 911 happened. Look at the links. They're loaded with information, some undeniable.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

tamarque said:


> It is true that the US and Israel were materially instrumental in creating ISIS and still support them despite the rhetoric in this country. Read this detailed article.
> 
> http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39603.htm
> 
> ...


You are a bleeping bleep.

What would Israel gain by creating ISIL? Muslims do a great job on their own killing each other, thank you. As for the hospital, I know that Hasaddah serves Arabs and Jews. Could that be the venue of this alleged photo? And what does that say about Netanyahu other than he is compassionate?

You are a bleeping bleep.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> It is true that the US and Israel were materially instrumental in creating ISIS and still support them despite the rhetoric in this country. Read this detailed article.
> 
> http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39603.htm
> 
> ...


"There was also an article..." "I believe..." And we're supposed to accept this as evidence for anything?

I read the article from informationclearinghouse, and it had nothing about Israel except that Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Israel were helping the Syrian rebels a few months ago. The article also gives a link to a piece in Haaretz that makes no connection between Israel and ISIS, either. Did you even read the article you sent the rest of us to?

It seems as though implications and hints are enough for you to condemn Israel but ignore the much larger Arab countries involved. (This is worse than all the reporters who seem to think that because not enough Israelis were being killed by Hamas, Israel must be entirely in the wrong.)

I'd like to offer you an article in exchange, one that's way too long to post, but I'd like to recommend it to everyone. It's by a former journalist for AP and makes very clear how people are manipulated to think as they do and to believe that Israel is the worst country in the world and, as a consequence, Jews the worst people on earth. We really aren't.

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/183033/israel-insider-guide?all=1


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm not familiar with this website, but the information in this article is very similar and sometimes the same, as the information I've collected over the years. You might be interested in reading this article. Its a little dated so it doesn't include ISIS, but ties a lot of the same information.
> http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/the-wars-in-the-middle-east-and-north-africa-are-not-just-about-oil-theyre-also-about-gas.html


Just read quickly thru this article and it is of the same sort of information as in the article I sent. I remember the Unocal pipeline maps and that issue in Afghanistan. I also remember going with a small group of activists to our so-called liberal Congressman and questioning him about his support of this war. He went into his power mode and cut me off insisting there are no conspiracies at work and the war was about bin Laden, blah, blah, blah. But the maps were there and the public statements had been made about Unocal wanting the govt to militarily protect its investments before proceeding.

It seems to me that all the necessary information is in the public domain if people strip their blinders and really look at what we know factually instead of listening to the nationalist propaganda fed via the mass media. We clearly are on a world domination power play by hook and by crook. Iraq was resisting the US and threatening to change its currency base I recall and that promoted the invasion by the US.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

SQM said:


> You are a bleeping bleep.
> 
> What would Israel gain by creating ISIL? Muslims do a great job on their own killing each other, thank you. As for the hospital, I know that Hasaddah serves Arabs and Jews. Could that be the venue of this alleged photo? And what does that say about Netanyahu other than he is compassionate?
> 
> You are a bleeping bleep.


Israel is neck deep into this mess. It has been promoting attacks on Iran and has been involved in every single piece of political crap. It is the basis of US support for that State. The Mossad trains CIA and other police forces in the US and provides major spying information. I think you need to disabuse yourself of those romantic notions of that State and start reading about what it really does. And its name is clearly present in the development of IS as stated in the article and my notes.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> "There was also an article..." "I believe..." And we're supposed to accept this as evidence for anything?
> 
> I read the article from informationclearinghouse, and it had nothing about Israel except that Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Israel were helping the Syrian rebels a few months ago. The article also gives a link to a piece in Haaretz that makes no connection between Israel and ISIS, either. Did you even read the article you sent the rest of us to?
> 
> ...


I think the article is very protective of Israel. The statement you refer to says a lot more than its few words. It is saying clearly the Israel has been providing material support for the rebels who are IS. What is not to be understood?

And please don't play the victim game on behalf of Israel. No one attacked Jews and I certainly am not attacking any religion other than to attack them all as institutions of mass social control. The fundamentalist end of all of them are the same with the same mentality--they all want to rid the earth of everyone not them or to totally subordinate them. And they all will resort to violent methods to do it. It is the nature of the beast as history and social psychology has shown. The State is another story. As a political entity it is up for criticism just as any State. And no one has said it was the worst. It is just another rotten sociopathic State no different than the US.

I did skim thru the article you sent and it strikes me as just another piece of hasbara. I tend to read liberal/progressive articles that are also written by Israeli Jews who are not afraid to criticize that State for its lies and manipulations and murderous practice against another people who happen to be living there.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

SQM said:


> You are a bleeping bleep.
> 
> What would Israel gain by creating ISIL? Muslims do a great job on their own killing each other, thank you. As for the hospital, I know that Hasaddah serves Arabs and Jews. Could that be the venue of this alleged photo? And what does that say about Netanyahu other than he is compassionate?
> 
> You are a bleeping bleep.


No I think it shows that Netanyahu will do just as the US--lie in bed with anyone that will support its agenda and then, as with the US, will turn on them when that serves. And this is not a hospital that serves Arabs and Jews in some benign way.

As for this point, wounded rebels from Syria pour across the border into Israel to be treated and then sent back. If you think they aren't IS fighters, you are not paying close attention.

What does Israel gain? Its agenda is clearly, in conjunction with the US and a couple of other States, to break up various countries. Groups are funded and then presented to the public as enemies. The US funded and trained bin Laden, fed them arms. IS is just a new morph of that group and is still being fed by the US and Israel and probably Egypt and Saudi Arabia.
Talk about oil and gas. Don't you pay attention to the Israeli grab for Palestinian oil fields? Do you think the brouhaha is only about security? BS sweetheart. There is no security issue in Israel--just a lot of emotional manipulation of the public. But oil, gas, water, land--those are the issues of war.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> I think the article is very protective of Israel. The statement you refer to says a lot more than its few words. It is saying clearly the Israel has been providing material support for the rebels who are IS. What is not to be understood?
> 
> And please don't play the victim game on behalf of Israel. No one attacked Jews and I certainly am not attacking any religion other than to attack them all as institutions of mass social control. The fundamentalist end of all of them are the same with the same mentality--they all want to rid the earth of everyone not them or to totally subordinate them. And they all will resort to violent methods to do it. It is the nature of the beast as history and social psychology has shown. The State is another story. As a political entity it is up for criticism just as any State. And no one has said it was the worst. It is just another rotten sociopathic State no different than the US.
> 
> I did skim thru the article you sent and it strikes me as just another piece of hasbara. I tend to read liberal/progressive articles that are also written by Israeli Jews who are not afraid to criticize that State for its lies and manipulations and murderous practice against another people who happen to be living there.


If all you got from the article is that it's very protective of Israel, then you didn't even skim it. You haven't said it's the worst; you leave that spot open for the US. But in the minds of a lot on the left, it's obviously worse than most other countries, because there's more news about that tiny place with its six million than about the surrounding Arab countries or North Korea or China or Sudan - all those great upholders of human rights.

I don't like Netanyahu either, because he has made sure there won't be peace in that region. But if it were up to you and those who think like you, there wouldn't be Israel in that region, AND there would still not be peace.

The fundamentalists there are so detached from reality they refuse to join the army and when forced, fight it tooth and nail. They otherwise have no desire to have anything to do with the Palestinians in any way, nor do they believe they can "rid the earth of everyone not them or to totally subordinate them."

Anyway, I asked about *your* article, the one that was supposed to prove that Israel had been one of the creators of ISIS; I both skimmed it and read it, and never found that in it, or in the Haaretz article it linked to. You answer only with innuendo and references to unnamed "liberal/progressive articles that are also written by Israeli Jews who are not afraid to criticize that State for its lies and manipulations and murderous practice against another people who happen to be living there."

Why aren't they "afraid" to criticize the State? Could it be that Israel is NOT likely to arrest people for criticism? You seem to think that because it's fighting for its life against a Gazan government still committed to destroying the entire nation, it has to be as bad as you would be in such a situation. This says more about you than about Israel.

More for readers here who have no idea of the geography of the region than for you, who I'm sure know it but choose to ignore it, I post a map.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Tamarque,

So if I am understanding what you have posted so far. You feel there is nothing good in the USA or Israel. What country would you prefer to live in?

Your response to this country and Israel and from what I have read is so negative why bother.

I do not understand why you would even want to live in such places you have described. 

The same may be said of KFN, why bother if this country is causing you so much pain.

Why don't you think of running for office in the goverment and work from the inside to change all you find wrong in the goverment, I Would think that both of you could then do more then post on here. 

As to Isreal, do you ever check on the other side of the storys you have read? Or do you just look at what you believe or want to believe?

Honest question that I for one think deserve your answers both of you.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

You are not going to change my perception of Israel nor am I going to change yours. But since I am Jewish, I think I understand a bit better what Israel means to Jews than you do. So spew and I will always be here to throw your spew right back at you. The new anti-semitism now is hidden by hatred and maligning of Israel. 

"As for this point, wounded rebels from Syria pour across the border into Israel to be treated and then sent back. If you think they aren't IS fighters, you are not paying close attention. "

What does this say about the extraordinary humanism of Israel? I rather they kill the bastards and stop being gentlemen about the whole situation. If the mid-hudson valley were under attack, how would the citizens, police and pols respond? The Jews were in denial about WW2 - Israel is a new breed of Jews that I am super proud of. They have cojones. We will not be led to slaughter again. I won't even remark on your saying there is no security issue in Israel. That is plain in your face hogwash and imbecilic - I believe which is lower than moronic or idiotic according to a scale mentioned months ago.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> No I think it shows that Netanyahu will do just as the US--lie in bed with anyone that will support its agenda and then, as with the US, will turn on them when that serves. And this is not a hospital that serves Arabs and Jews in some benign way.


Since you don't name the hospital, how is anyone to believe you?



> As for this point, wounded rebels from Syria pour across the border into Israel to be treated and then sent back. If you think they aren't IS fighters, you are not paying close attention.
> 
> What does Israel gain? Its agenda is clearly, in conjunction with the US and a couple of other States, to break up various countries. Groups are funded and then presented to the public as enemies. The US funded and trained bin Laden, fed them arms. IS is just a new morph of that group and is still being fed by the US and Israel and probably Egypt and Saudi Arabia.
> Talk about oil and gas. Don't you pay attention to the Israeli grab for Palestinian oil fields? Do you think the brouhaha is only about security? BS sweetheart. There is no security issue in Israel--just a lot of emotional manipulation of the public. But oil, gas, water, land--those are the issues of war.


Palestinian oil fields? The Palestinians seem unable to figure out how to feed themselves, let alone drill for oil. And there's obviously a security issue in Israel, though apparently you forget that the first war Israel loses will mean the nation's end. Or, more probably, that's what you expect/would like to happen and therefore pooh pooh.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Yarnie - when you come thru, you really come thru. Thanks. And thanks to PP for posting the map to show reality. And keep in mind, that the population of Israel is below 8 million. They are a speck on this planet. Leave Israel alone so they can keep developing technology that is besting every other country and improving our lives. People like Tarmarque are why I left the left. ( No Happy Dance, Mrs. Somma - I am still a staunch abortion supporter.)


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> You are not going to change my perception of Israel nor am I going to change yours. But since I am Jewish, I think I understand a bit better what Israel means to Jews than you do. So spew and I will always be here to throw your spew right back at you. The new anti-semitism now is hidden by hatred and maligning of Israel.
> 
> "As for this point, wounded rebels from Syria pour across the border into Israel to be treated and then sent back. If you think they aren't IS fighters, you are not paying close attention. "
> 
> What does this say about the extraordinary humanism of Israel? I rather they kill the bastards and stop being gentlemen about the whole situation. If the mid-hudson valley were under attack, how would the citizens, police and pols respond? The Jews were in denial about WW2 - Israel is a new breed of Jews that I am super proud of. They have cojones. We will not be led to slaughter again. I won't even remark on your saying there is no security issue in Israel. That is plain in your face hogwash and imbecilic - I believe which is lower than moronic or idiotic according to a scale mentioned months ago.


 :thumbup:


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

My ability to type today is impaired. This is probably a good thing for the people here I'd like to take to task.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Fumble fingers done got me again.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> "There was also an article..." "I believe..." And we're supposed to accept this as evidence for anything?
> 
> I read the article from informationclearinghouse, and it had nothing about Israel except that Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Israel were helping the Syrian rebels a few months ago. The article also gives a link to a piece in Haaretz that makes no connection between Israel and ISIS, either. Did you even read the article you sent the rest of us to?
> 
> ...


I read the article you posted a link to, from start to finish. Anyone who doesn't bother reading it, IMO is an idiot. I think the article tells the story of Israel, but it also tells a much bigger story. Here's a quote from the article which I feel is very important. "A story on which there is surprisingly little variation among the mainstream media outlets, and one which is, as word " story" suggests, a narrative construct that is largely fiction."

I've been saying for months now, that the mainstream media is controlled by a very small group of people. They tell the masses what to think and what to believe. Its propaganda! It's nearly impossible to not get sucked in to the narrative they present. As the author stated, everything about Israel is blown out of proportion and is presented in a way that makes Israel look bad. There is no unbiased picture being drawn. The people of Israel are in a fight for their survival, against those who have declared their intent to wipe them off the map!

I have no idea what the real truth is in Israel, just as I have no idea what the real truth is in the US. This much I know is true. The people of Israel are good hardworking people who want to live in peace. The same can be said about the people of the US. I believe that the people of Israel and Jews everywhere, are victims of an agenda. I believe that this agenda is far reaching and affects us all. I believe that this agenda is about good vs evil. There are those who act as chess masters, manipulating us as they would manipulate pieces on a chessboard. They use the ignorant masses as pawns in a winner take all game. Everything is about money and power. They use war to gain that money and power. And I predict that we are rapidly approaching World War III.

The evil chess masters are bent on creating division and hatred. We're seeing it everywhere, not just in the agenda against the Jews. They use the mainstream media to foment hatred of every group against another. We see it in the divisions of right vs left, republican vs democrat, black vs white, rich vs poor, Christian vs Jew, Muslims vs everybody. And we fall for it, myself included. The people of the world need to see how we're being manipulated into hating each other. We need to seek truth because this story isn't only about the Jews. The Jews are being used in the grander tale as old as the Bible.

I believe that the Bible tells the story of what's happening today. Non believers can say that people are manipulating biblical events to occur, whereas believers can say that these events were foretold. It makes no difference. These things are happening and people would do good to prepare themselves for what's to come. I know I'm going to get blasted for bringing the Bible into this discussion, but if you want to know where all of this is headed, read the story. It is written!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Just read quickly thru this article and it is of the same sort of information as in the article I sent. I remember the Unocal pipeline maps and that issue in Afghanistan. I also remember going with a small group of activists to our so-called liberal Congressman and questioning him about his support of this war. He went into his power mode and cut me off insisting there are no conspiracies at work and the war was about bin Laden, blah, blah, blah. But the maps were there and the public statements had been made about Unocal wanting the govt to militarily protect its investments before proceeding.
> 
> It seems to me that all the necessary information is in the public domain if people strip their blinders and really look at what we know factually instead of listening to the nationalist propaganda fed via the mass media. We clearly are on a world domination power play by hook and by crook. Iraq was resisting the US and threatening to change its currency base I recall and that promoted the invasion by the US.


Excepting what you think about Israel, you and I think much alike. However, neither you nor I are immune to propaganda either. We know that the truth is not being told! But neither of us can know for sure, what that truth is. There is one HUGE difference between us. I KNOW how the story ends!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Israel is neck deep into this mess. It has been promoting attacks on Iran and has been involved in every single piece of political crap. It is the basis of US support for that State. The Mossad trains CIA and other police forces in the US and provides major spying information. I think you need to disabuse yourself of those romantic notions of that State and start reading about what it really does. And its name is clearly present in the development of IS as stated in the article and my notes.


IMO, every country is involved in things which the people know nothing about! But I will stand with the PEOPLE of Israel and with the PEOPLE of the world! Those who do not make war but suffer the consequences of it!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Excepting what you think about Israel, you and I think much alike. However, neither you nor I are immune to propaganda either. We know that the truth is not being told! But neither of us can know for sure, what that truth is. There is one HUGE difference between us. I KNOW how the story ends!


I thought the bible teaches against fortune tellers. Or future tellers or necromancers. You know nada girlfriend.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> I think the article is very protective of Israel. The statement you refer to says a lot more than its few words. It is saying clearly the Israel has been providing material support for the rebels who are IS. What is not to be understood?
> 
> And please don't play the victim game on behalf of Israel. No one attacked Jews and I certainly am not attacking any religion other than to attack them all as institutions of mass social control. The fundamentalist end of all of them are the same with the same mentality--they all want to rid the earth of everyone not them or to totally subordinate them. And they all will resort to violent methods to do it. It is the nature of the beast as history and social psychology has shown. The State is another story. As a political entity it is up for criticism just as any State. And no one has said it was the worst. It is just another rotten sociopathic State no different than the US.
> 
> I did skim thru the article you sent and it strikes me as just another piece of hasbara. I tend to read liberal/progressive articles that are also written by Israeli Jews who are not afraid to criticize that State for its lies and manipulations and murderous practice against another people who happen to be living there.


Truth comes from many directions!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The evil chess masters are bent on creating division and hatred. We're seeing it everywhere, not just in the agenda against the Jews. They use the mainstream media to foment hatred of every group against another. We see it in the divisions of right vs left, republican vs democrat, black vs white, rich vs poor, Christian vs Jew, Muslims vs everybody. And we fall for it, myself included. The people of the world need to see how we're being manipulated into hating each other. We need to seek truth because this story isn't only about the Jews. The Jews are being used in the grander tale as old as the Bible.


Oh boy, did you hit the nail on the head with this, Nebraska. It's true--human society stands ever-ready to splinter into countless divisions and factions, and politicians make the most of it by whipping up the hate. We're dupes, but willing dupes--it seems part of our nature to dislike people outside our immediate social group.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, every country is involved in things which the people know nothing about! But I will stand with the PEOPLE of Israel and with the PEOPLE of the world! Those who do not make war but suffer the consequences of it!


*sigh* I support Israel because the West needs a strong ally in the Middle East, and because the world owed the Jewish people a substantial chunk of land after turning its back on them during the Holocaust. But I personally can't support the establishment of a Jewish state based on anything said in the Bible--three major religions trace their roots back to that tumultuous region, and all three can make legitimate claims on that particular bit of real estate.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> Tamarque,
> 
> So if I am understanding what you have posted so far. You feel there is nothing good in the USA or Israel. What country would you prefer to live in?
> 
> ...


Your words are not truth! No one claimed that there is nothing good in the USA or Israel! I love my country! I risk ridicule to inform people that all is not as it seems. One person alone, cannot effect change. Change must come from the masses! That is why I try to open the eyes of people who believe what they're told. Tamarque posted a link to an article that PROVES, the narrative we're being given is false. You probably didn't bother to read it. Those with money and power are leading us into war! They've created every situation that leads us there! Many innocent people, including our young men and women in the military are going to DIE for someone else's money and power! WAKE UP! All is not as it seems! Our government created Al Qaida and they created ISIS! They did so to fulfill an agenda! Read about it! Open your eyes! Our lives depend upon it!

"But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear."


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Palestinian oil fields? The Palestinians seem unable to figure out how to feed themselves, let alone drill for oil. And there's obviously a security issue in Israel, though apparently you forget that the first war Israel loses will mean the nation's end. Or, more probably, that's what you expect/would like to happen and therefore pooh pooh.


There may or may not, be oil in Palestine. And that may or may not, play a part in the bigger agenda. But you are right! Israel's very existence is at stake. All people have a right to defend themselves against attack!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I thought the bible teaches against fortune tellers. Or future tellers or necromancers. You know nada girlfriend.


I'm not being a fortune teller. Read the book! The earthquakes, the wars and rumors of wars, the plagues, the pestilence, the volcanos, the weather, the hatred of people for each other. I could go on and on. It's all there!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Oh boy, did you hit the nail on the head with this, Nebraska. It's true--human society stands ever-ready to splinter into countless divisions and factions, and politicians make the most of it by whipping up the hate. We're dupes, but willing dupes--it seems part of our nature to dislike people outside our immediate social group.


Remember...the politicians are owned by those who own the media. They have an agenda in whipping up all that hate.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> *sigh* I support Israel because the West needs a strong ally in the Middle East, and because the world owed the Jewish people a substantial chunk of land after turning its back on them during the Holocaust. But I personally can't support the establishment of a Jewish state based on anything said in the Bible--three major religions trace their roots back to that tumultuous region, and all three can make legitimate claims on that particular bit of real estate.


I'm not trying to convince anyone to believe what I believe. I'm only stating my opinion. I believe it's all connected and was all foretold. What's happening, is happening. Everyone is entitled to believe what they're told by the media or search for other answers. But that doesn't change what's happening or what will happen. What each of us "believes" is irrelevant.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

I'm only copying a bit of your long post so you'll know what I'm responding to. Anti-Semitism is still alive and well. Maybe it takes different forms nowadays, but we need to remember it exists. Israel may start the violence between it and its surrounding neighbors sometimes, but let's not forget they have good reason to be vigilantly self-defensive.


Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I read the article you posted a link to, from start to finish.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I'm only copying a bit of your long post so you'll know what I'm responding to. Anti-Semitism is still alive and well. Maybe it takes different forms nowadays, but we need to remember it exists. Israel may start the violence between it and its surrounding neighbors sometimes, but let's not forget they have good reason to be vigilantly self-defensive.


I agree with you 100%! I had not addressed anti semitism in this post, but I have in the past. I felt like my posts were getting long and no one was listening anyway. I feel like I'm always misunderstood. IMO, with knowledge, comes change. If people are not aware of a hidden agenda, they can't change it.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree with you 100%! I had not addressed anti semitism in this post, but I have in the past. I felt like my posts were getting long and no one was listening anyway. I feel like I'm always misunderstood. IMO, with knowledge, comes change. If people are not aware of a hidden agenda, they can't change it.


I admire your fervour and you write very well. I have rarely been in social situations where the types of topics discussed here were. It's good to have an outlet for one's point of view.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I admire your fervour and you write very well. I have rarely been in social situations where the types of topics discussed here were. It's good to have an outlet for one's point of view.


Thanks, Wombat! I agree (with having an outlet, I mean)!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I thought the bible teaches against fortune tellers. Or future tellers or necromancers. You know nada girlfriend.


YOU are a fair weather friend! I know everything when it agrees with what you think. But if not, you attack! Thanks!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> If all you got from the article is that it's very protective of Israel, then you didn't even skim it. You haven't said it's the worst; you leave that spot open for the US. But in the minds of a lot on the left, it's obviously worse than most other countries, because there's more news about that tiny place with its six million than about the surrounding Arab countries or North Korea or China or Sudan - all those great upholders of human rights.
> 
> I don't like Netanyahu either, because he has made sure there won't be peace in that region. But if it were up to you and those who think like you, there wouldn't be Israel in that region, AND there would still not be peace.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I'm only copying a bit of your long post so you'll know what I'm responding to. Anti-Semitism is still alive and well. Maybe it takes different forms nowadays, but we need to remember it exists. Israel may start the violence between it and its surrounding neighbors sometimes, but let's not forget they have good reason to be vigilantly self-defensive.


When you get your fingers typing, it's good. Thanks. I agree, also as a non-Jewish supporter of Israel.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> YOU are a fair weather friend! I know everything when it agrees with what you think. But if not, you attack! Thanks!


My only target for attacks are those who blame Israel and the Jews for the evils in this world. I try to stay out of bible and biblical prophecies because I don't want to offend other people's cultures. I am with you all the way with your spin on who is in control. That is ample.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Your words are not truth! No one claimed that there is nothing good in the USA or Israel! I love my country! I risk ridicule to inform people that all is not as it seems. One person alone, cannot effect change. Change must come from the masses! That is why I try to open the eyes of people who believe what they're told. Tamarque posted a link to an article that PROVES, the narrative we're being given is false. You probably didn't bother to read it. Those with money and power are leading us into war! They've created every situation that leads us there! Many innocent people, including our young men and women in the military are going to DIE for someone else's money and power! WAKE UP! All is not as it seems! Our government created Al Qaida and they created ISIS! They did so to fulfill an agenda! Read about it! Open your eyes! Our lives depend upon it!
> 
> "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear."


Must be the Illuminati behind all this trouble. /s


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> My only target for attacks are those who blame Israel and the Jews for the evils in this world. I try to stay out of bible and biblical prophecies because I don't want to offend other people's cultures. I am with you all the way with your spin on who is in control. That is ample.


Is it? Quote: " You know Nada, girlfriend. ". I have never blamed Israel OR the Jews for "the evils in this world". Yet you you accuse me of knowing nothing? Disagree with a statement. Disagree with my opinion, but make up your mind. I'm entitled to opinion, as are you.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Must be the Illuminati behind all this trouble. /s


Haha! You must be a conspiracy theorist! :XD:


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

tamarque said:


> Israel is neck deep into this mess. It has been promoting attacks on Iran and has been involved in every single piece of political crap. It is the basis of US support for that State. The Mossad trains CIA and other police forces in the US and provides major spying information. I think you need to disabuse yourself of those romantic notions of that State and start reading about what it really does. And its name is clearly present in the development of IS as stated in the article and my notes.


Of course Israel is in neck deep. And rightly so. Iran is not innocent. Iran states outright that the Jews must die. The only way Israel can protect herself is to know what the enemy is up to on all fronts and to develop the necessary strategies to defend herself. Israel cannot afford to lose any battle, as it will be her undoing.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Of course Israel is in neck deep. And rightly so. Iran is not innocent. Iran states outright that the Jews must die.


So true...yet somehow the US is cozying up that country full of crazies and trying to get them on board the anti-ISIS bandwagon. Politics and alliances in the Middle East are absolutely insane.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Must be the Illuminati behind all this trouble. /s


Can I assume that was a joke?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Can I assume that was a joke?


Please do.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I read the article you posted a link to, from start to finish. Anyone who doesn't bother reading it, IMO is an idiot. I think the article tells the story of Israel, but it also tells a much bigger story. Here's a quote from the article which I feel is very important. "A story on which there is surprisingly little variation among the mainstream media outlets, and one which is, as word " story" suggests, a narrative construct that is largely fiction."
> 
> I've been saying for months now, that the mainstream media is controlled by a very small group of people. They tell the masses what to think and what to believe. Its propaganda! It's nearly impossible to not get sucked in to the narrative they present. As the author stated, everything about Israel is blown out of proportion and is presented in a way that makes Israel look bad. There is no unbiased picture being drawn. The people of Israel are in a fight for their survival, against those who have declared their intent to wipe them off the map!
> 
> ...


I should be happy that you and I have some agreement, but I can't accept your reasons. There's plenty of manipulation of the media, and you're right to some degree to see a small powerful group trying to pull strings, but I don't see the situation as being of biblical proportions, and I'm not expecting Armageddon in that tiny spot.

In fact, the original writers of the Bible probably don't expect anyone to take it as far as you're taking it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Excepting what you think about Israel, you and I think much alike. However, neither you nor I are immune to propaganda either. We know that the truth is not being told! But neither of us can know for sure, what that truth is. There is one HUGE difference between us. I KNOW how the story ends!


You're believe you know how it ends, but I doubt that you know any more than Tamarque or me.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Oh boy, did you hit the nail on the head with this, Nebraska. It's true--human society stands ever-ready to splinter into countless divisions and factions, and politicians make the most of it by whipping up the hate. We're dupes, but willing dupes--it seems part of our nature to dislike people outside our immediate social group.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> *sigh* I support Israel because the West needs a strong ally in the Middle East, and because the world owed the Jewish people a substantial chunk of land after turning its back on them during the Holocaust. But I personally can't support the establishment of a Jewish state based on anything said in the Bible--three major religions trace their roots back to that tumultuous region, and all three can make legitimate claims on that particular bit of real estate.


I sigh with you. I'll even go further: in 1948, the world may have owed the Jewish people a place to live, but now, nearly 70 years later, Israel has done enough to show that it's as much a nation as the US or China or Burkina Faso and should not be destroyed.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I'm only copying a bit of your long post so you'll know what I'm responding to. Anti-Semitism is still alive and well. Maybe it takes different forms nowadays, but we need to remember it exists. Israel may start the violence between it and its surrounding neighbors sometimes, but let's not forget they have good reason to be vigilantly self-defensive.


Thank you. This shouldn't need to be pointed out so often, but I'm glad you did.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Of course Israel is in neck deep. And rightly so. Iran is not innocent. Iran states outright that the Jews must die. The only way Israel can protect herself is to know what the enemy is up to on all fronts and to develop the necessary strategies to defend herself. Israel cannot afford to lose any battle, as it will be her undoing.


Exactly right. Thanks for joining the fray, Solo.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Is it? Quote: " You know Nada, girlfriend. ". I have never blamed Israel OR the Jews for "the evils in this world". Yet you you accuse me of knowing nothing? Disagree with a statement. Disagree with my opinion, but make up your mind. I'm entitled to opinion, as are you.


I was referring to your predicting the future.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I should be happy that you and I have some agreement, but I can't accept your reasons. There's plenty of manipulation of the media, and you're right to some degree to see a small powerful group trying to pull strings, but I don't see the situation as being of biblical proportions, and I'm not expecting Armageddon in that tiny spot.
> 
> In fact, the original writers of the Bible probably don't expect anyone to take it as far as you're taking it.


I understand and accept that you do not believe as I do. But I do think that those who wrote the Bible, intended it as a guide, a history and prophecy. Sometimes, my faith is too strong to keep to myself.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You're believe you know how it ends, but I doubt that you know any more than Tamarque or me.


And you're allowed to believe that. Just as I'm allowed to to believe as I do.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I sigh with you. I'll even go further: in 1948, the world may have owed the Jewish people a place to live, but now, nearly 70 years later, Israel has done enough to show that it's as much a nation as the US or China or Burkina Faso and should not be destroyed.


I believe that the world owed the Jewish people a place to live. All people are owed a place to live! The world didn't necessarily owe the Jewish people a country of their own but they gave it anyway. Once Israel existed, it had every right to survive as a nation. It has every right to defend itself.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I understand and accept that you do not believe as I do. But I do think that those who wrote the Bible, intended it as a guide, a history and prophecy. Sometimes, my faith is too strong to keep to myself.


That says a lot about you, but not necessarily anything about history or the future.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And you're allowed to believe that. Just as I'm allowed to to believe as I do.


No argument with you here, as long as you speak of it as belief, not knowledge.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> No argument with you here, as long as you speak of it as belief, not knowledge.


It is knowledge to me. Knowledge based upon my belief.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Another probable beheading of British journalist:

http://www.news.com.au/world/islamic-state-isis-video-claims-to-show-beheading-of-british-prisoner-threatens-americas-allies/story-fndir2ev-1227057904652


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Another probable beheading of British journalist:
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/world/islamic-state-isis-video-claims-to-show-beheading-of-british-prisoner-threatens-americas-allies/story-fndir2ev-1227057904652


awful, sickening, these asses have to be stopped.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I sigh with you. I'll even go further: in 1948, the world may have owed the Jewish people a place to live, but now, nearly 70 years later, Israel has done enough to show that it's as much a nation as the US or China or Burkina Faso and should not be destroyed.


Hmmm...not that Israel hasn't earned the right to exist through 66 years of blood, sweat, and tears, but as far as I'm concerned as long as even one person on earth continues to deny the Holocaust the debt the world owes the Jewish people is ongoing.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> awful, sickening, these asses have to be stopped.


What do you think about President Obama's strategy?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> What do you think about President Obama's strategy?


It's a Sunni/Shia fight that we cannot win for them. It is so complicated. Why would ISIS want to egg the States and 
England into fighting against them? Aren't they busy enough gobbling up the Middle East?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> It's a Sunni/Shia fight that we cannot win for them. It is so complicated. Why would ISIS want to egg the States and
> England into fighting against them? Aren't they busy enough gobbling up the Middle East?


I think it's more about ISIS grinding an axe about the U.S. and allies occupation of ME states in a military way and the deaths of Muslims as a result. The shocking attack on Lee Rigby was all about an eye for an eye in that the perpetrators claimed the British military were killing Muslims.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

HI! Glad to see you back!



DGreen said:


> Must be the Illuminati behind all this trouble. /s


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No. A satirist.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Haha! You must be a conspiracy theorist! :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That's my Purl. Right on target.



Poor Purl said:


> Can I assume that was a joke?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I sigh with you. I'll even go further: in 1948, the world may have owed the Jewish people a place to live, but now, nearly 70 years later, Israel has done enough to show that it's as much a nation as the US or China or Burkina Faso and should not be destroyed.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And you're allowed to believe that. Just as I'm allowed to to believe as I do.


each of you are allowed to have an opinion and it doesn't have to be the same opinion. That is the way free speech and the right to think for ourselves, works. That is what these discussions are for, to express our own opinions and once in awhile have our opinion changed through the discussion. Most time not , but we can say what we think.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

IMO it devalues your faith when you exaggerate.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I understand and accept that you do not believe as I do. But I do think that those who wrote the Bible, intended it as a guide, a history and prophecy. Sometimes, my faith is too strong to keep to myself.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Just don't expect others to believe exactly as you do.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And you're allowed to believe that. Just as I'm allowed to to believe as I do.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put.



Poor Purl said:


> That says a lot about you, but not necessarily anything about history or the future.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Arrrgh.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It is knowledge to me. Knowledge based upon my belief.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It seems weak and confusing to me. We don't understand the situations. Standard tactics carry risk with little chance of reward. And if we haven't sorted it out in 20 years, how will we now?

My suggestions? Shore up our borders. Beef up relattionships with allies. Expand covert operations & execute some of them any and every time we get a chance.



Wombatnomore said:


> What do you think about President Obama's strategy?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> It's a Sunni/Shia fight that we cannot win for them. It is so complicated. Why would ISIS want to egg the States and
> England into fighting against them? Aren't they busy enough gobbling up the Middle East?


The thing about it is that they don't care if they make sense. They go with their feelings of hate in my opinion. They are not afraid to annihilate many people and therefore how can you reason with them. They don't react like we do and never will. So how do we fight people with that mindset. They are willing to die, to kill, to do anything and everything against their enemies- and anyone who doesn't agree with them is an enemy. Especially those who have more, have world power and who they envy. They hide themselves and then attack. They are hard to find and there is no way we can know what they will do next.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for the reminders.



Designer1234 said:


> each of you are allowed to have an opinion and it doesn't have to be the same opinion. That is the way free speech and the right to think for ourselves, works. That is what these discussions are for, to express our own opinions and once in awhile have our opinion changed through the discussion. Most time not , but we can say what we think.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> What do you think about President Obama's strategy?


As an outsider, although very much a part of the world you all live in, I wonder what anyone can do to stop them. He has one or two options -- none of them good. Or he can sit and wait for it to come to America. He will be reviled no matter what he does. Not because for once, he is hated, but because no one has the answer and no one can know what will happen with this type of enemy. they are capable of anythng. He has to do the best he can. I am talking about any President not just President Obama. If he does nothing they see him as weak and feel that they can do what they want. If he over reacts he has a world war on his hands, so somehow he has to find a way to show strength without going to war. Pretty darned hard to do when your enemy doesn't have any limitations as to what they will do. worrisome to say the least.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> No argument with you here, as long as you speak of it as belief, not knowledge.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:

I think that is what is the important thing. I think most of us agree basically, but we do not KNOW - we hope, or we wonder, but we don't know. I think that is what is hard to accept for most of us, when people state they know what isn't known, because it hasn't happened yet. I believe a lot of things are going to happen but I have never pretended or believed I KNOW what will happen. Different mindset.

To each his own. That is what these threads are about I guess.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> The thing about it is that they don't care if they make sense. They go with their feelings of hate in my opinion. They are not afraid to annihilate many people and therefore how can you reason with them. They don't react like we do and never will. So how do we fight people with that mindset. They are willing to die, to kill, to do anything and everything against their enemies- and anyone who doesn't agree with them is an enemy. Especially those who have more, have world power and who they envy. They hide themselves and then attack. They are hard to find and there is no way we can know what they will do next.


I agree with you in part, Designer--ISIS recruits certainly seem to be glorying in their (well-earned) savage and bloody reputation. But I think it's a mistake for us to decide that they're utterly hopeless, to dehumanize them, and to dismiss them as dogs that need to put down. It's not a case of dealing with just a handful of murderous psychopaths--ISIS is thirty thousand members strong and growing by the day. Something is driving these folks, and the West needs to figure out what it is.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Hmmm...not that Israel hasn't earned the right to exist through 66 years of blood, sweat, and tears, but as far as I'm concerned as long as even one person on earth continues to deny the Holocaust the debt the world owes the Jewish people is ongoing.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:

It was organized. What we are facing is very different- but both are evil.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree with you in part, Designer--ISIS recruits certainly seem to be glorying in their (well-earned) savage and bloody reputation. But I think it's a mistake for us to decide that they're utterly hopeless, to dehumanize them, and to dismiss them as dogs that need to put down. It's not a case of dealing with just a handful of murderous psychopaths--ISIS is thirty thousand members strong and growing by the day. Something is driving these folks, and the West needs to figure out what it is.


Listening to CNN and it seems that the beheading videos are wonderful recruiting tools and that may be the motive behind them. ISIS is also drafting the men in the areas they are conquering. There is an international wave of new recruits.

How do you think Hamas, The Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, et al, are reacting to IS being the big cheese? ISIS now controls land as large as Belgium and are completely ignoring the borders between Iraq and Syria.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree with you in part, Designer--ISIS recruits certainly seem to be glorying in their (well-earned) savage and bloody reputation. But I think it's a mistake for us to decide that they're utterly hopeless, to dehumanize them, and to dismiss them as dogs that need to put down. It's not a case of dealing with just a handful of murderous psychopaths--ISIS is thirty thousand members strong and growing by the day. Something is driving these folks, and the West needs to figure out what it is.


I agree with you Susan -I don't for a minute think they are dogs to be put down - I don't know that there is anything that influences them that we can do- but I do think that is how they feel about the west- I am just not hopeful that they are interested in what the West thinks about what is driving them.
I think they have an agenda and what we think or feel about is less than important to them. I hope I am wrong. I think they are smart, focused and that this has been building up for many years. however that is just my opinion. I don't pretend to be an expert - but I did live through the 2nd world war and though the Nazis were 'different' they had the same objective- 'remove a whole race of people and those who they felt were not 'suitable by whatever inhuman means necessary (in their opinion) and rule the world.

The problem is those who are IS hate the west - and whether we figure them out or not is not going to change what they do. It might have influence on what we do but unless they give a hoot about what we do I can't see it changing their objectives.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

IMO they are receiving the attention they crave. Do more. Talk less.



SQM said:


> Listening to CNN and it seems that the beheading videos are wonderful recruiting tools and that may be the motive behind them. ISIS is also drafting the men in the areas they are conquering. There is an international of new recruits.
> 
> How do you think Hamas, The Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, et al, are reacting to IS being the big cheese? ISIS now controls land as large as Belgium and are completely ignoring the borders between Iraq and Syria.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I agree with you Susan -I don't for a minute thing they are dogs to be put down - I don't know that there is anything that influences them that we can do- but I do think that is how they feel about the west- I am just not hopeful that they are interested in what the West thinks about what is driving them.
> I think they have an agenda and what we think or feel about is less than important to them. I hope I am wrong.
> 
> The problem is they hate the west - and whether we figure them out or not is not going to change what they do. It might have influence on what we do but unless they give a hoot about what we do I can't see it changing their objectives.


What do we do if we can't change their minds? I have an answer, although I hate it in some ways. I just don't see another answer and we must win.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> IMO they are receiving the attention they crave. Do more. Talk less.


It certainly doesn't help that everything they do is broadcast around the world and that is obviously why they are doing what they are doing to get more attention. If there were no international news they would lose the interest in making a statement - I agree with you. I still doubt it would change their major objective whatever that is.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> IMO it devalues your faith when you exaggerate.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I agree with you Susan -I don't for a minute thing they are dogs to be put down - I don't know that there is anything that influences them that we can do- but I do think that is how they feel about the west- I am just not hopeful that they are interested in what the West thinks about what is driving them.
> I think they have an agenda and what we think or feel about is less than important to them. I hope I am wrong.


Sorry Designer--I didn't mean to imply for a second that you harbored an unusually vindictive streak--without a doubt you're one of the nicest and sweetest ladies here.

But I think ISIS' murderous antics is putting everyone in the West in an emotional snarl. We're just not used to seeing this sort of unfathomable beastly behavior from our enemies, and I think we're all at a loss as to how to react. I heard one of the FF crowd say that the families of ISIS recruits should be captured and tortured on camera, and that's a very frightening sentiment. How can the West win against ISIS if, in the end, we come out sounding and acting just like them?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> No. A satirist.


I got that.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> IMO it devalues your faith when you exaggerate.


I wasn't exaggerating.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Just don't expect others to believe exactly as you do.


I don't!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> It seems weak and confusing to me. We don't understand the situations. Standard tactics carry risk with little chance of reward. And if we haven't sorted it out in 20 years, how will we now?
> 
> My suggestions? Shore up our borders. Beef up relattionships with allies. Expand covert operations & execute some of them any and every time we get a chance.


I agree with your suggestions. But may I add...stop training, funding and supplying terrorists. Even the "moderate ones".


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> each of you are allowed to have an opinion and it doesn't have to be the same opinion. That is the way free speech and the right to think for ourselves, works. That is what these discussions are for, to express our own opinions and once in awhile have our opinion changed through the discussion. Most time not , but we can say what we think.


Yup!  That's what I said.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

For an interesting take on the mindset of the middle east, read the first few chapters of "From Beruit to Jerusalem" by Thomas Friedman. I read it many years ago and still recall his evaluation of this. The people there descended from Bedouins and retain some of that cultural heritage. The Bedouin culture was based on power. They respect power and nothing else. Today's friend becomes tomorrow's enemy depending on how the shift of power plays out. Those people have no cultural inhibitions about lying, stealing or killing so long as it furthers their thirst for power. 

Of course, the United States, unable to fathom such a culture and unwilling to educate themselves on history, swaggered into the middle east and stirred up a hornet's nest that had existed for eons. We have learned nothing from our experience. Of course they hate us. Of course alliances shift - THIS IS TO BE EXPECTED. We are horrified at their barbarism and don't understand how they can commit such atrocities. When the powerless have no other weapon, beheadings are sort of the ultimate tool for exerting power. That, and religious fanaticism appealing to the ignorant. As horrible as those acts were, they were nothing compared to what these people have done to each other and what they do as a matter of course to women. 

I have no answers. I wish someone did. We got ourselves into a mess and I'm glad President Obama has not responded rashly. In the end, we cannot impose our beliefs, our values, our culture or our method of government on them. They must determine their own destiny.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> It seems weak and confusing to me. We don't understand the situations. Standard tactics carry risk with little chance of reward. And if we haven't sorted it out in 20 years, how will we now?
> 
> My suggestions? Shore up our borders. Beef up relattionships with allies. Expand covert operations & execute some of them any and every time we get a chance.


I totally agree with your last sentence. Under the circumstances, totally reasonable.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup:
> 
> I think that is what is the important thing. I think most of us agree basically, but we do not KNOW - we hope, or we wonder, but we don't know. I think that is what is hard to accept for most of us, when people state they know what isn't known, because it hasn't happened yet. I believe a lot of things are going to happen but I have never pretended or believed I KNOW what will happen. Different mindset.
> 
> To each his own. That is what these threads are about I guess.


When one believes and has faith without doubt, one "knows". What I "know", may not be what you know. To thine own self be true.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> As an outsider, although very much a part of the world you all live in, I wonder what anyone can do to stop them. He has one or two options -- none of them good. Or he can sit and wait for it to come to America. He will be reviled no matter what he does. Not because for once, he is hated, but because no one has the answer and no one can know what will happen with this type of enemy. they are capable of anythng. He has to do the best he can. I am talking about any President not just President Obama. If he does nothing they see him as weak and feel that they can do what they want. If he over reacts he has a world war on his hands, so somehow he has to find a way to show strength without going to war. Pretty darned hard to do when your enemy doesn't have any limitations as to what they will do. worrisome to say the least.


The President is certainly under enormous pressure and as you say, whatever course of action is taken, it will be seen by many as wrong.

The message I got when I listened to his announcement was the intended course of action was to avoid at all costs combat on the ground. I wonder though, whether that will be possible in the longer term. The ISIS tentacles reach far beyond their presence and fighting in the middle east and beyond the realms of any intelligence out there (in my opinion), and that is why it's going to be so difficult to confine 'combat' to the middle east.

The U.S and allies may very well find ground combat traversing through their own back yards. Grim.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree with you in part, Designer--ISIS recruits certainly seem to be glorying in their (well-earned) savage and bloody reputation. But I think it's a mistake for us to decide that they're utterly hopeless, to dehumanize them, and to dismiss them as dogs that need to put down. It's not a case of dealing with just a handful of murderous psychopaths--ISIS is thirty thousand members strong and growing by the day. Something is driving these folks, and the West needs to figure out what it is.


I'm hopeful that some sort of psychological analysis of ISIS is taking place within the military and spy organisations. I don't think their tactics can be explained away purely due to their barbarism. Just a thought.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> The thing about it is that they don't care if they make sense. They go with their feelings of hate in my opinion. They are not afraid to annihilate many people and therefore how can you reason with them. They don't react like we do and never will. So how do we fight people with that mindset. They are willing to die, to kill, to do anything and everything against their enemies- and anyone who doesn't agree with them is an enemy. Especially those who have more, have world power and who they envy. They hide themselves and then attack. They are hard to find and there is no way we can know what they will do next.


It isn't about making sense. It's about forming a caliphate, in which the world will worship mohammad and the rule of law will be sharia. People will convert or be killed. It's as simple as that. They're willing to die for the cause in return for promised rewards in heaven.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Listening to CNN and it seems that the beheading videos are wonderful recruiting tools and that may be the motive behind them. ISIS is also drafting the men in the areas they are conquering. There is an international wave of new recruits.
> 
> How do you think Hamas, The Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, et al, are reacting to IS being the big cheese? ISIS now controls land as large as Belgium and are completely ignoring the borders between Iraq and Syria.


Eventually, they will join the caliphate, or be killed.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Listening to CNN and it seems that the beheading videos are wonderful recruiting tools and that may be the motive behind them. ISIS is also drafting the men in the areas they are conquering. There is an international wave of new recruits.
> 
> How do you think Hamas, The Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, et al, are reacting to IS being the big cheese? ISIS now controls land as large as Belgium and are completely ignoring the borders between Iraq and Syria.


I'd say they would be silent witnesses waiting to see what the response from the west will be.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> It certainly doesn't help that everything they do is broadcast around the world and that is obviously why they are doing what they are doing to get more attention. If there were no international news they would lose the interest in making a statement - I agree with you. I still doubt it would change their major objective whatever that is.


IMO, the vast amount of media attention is to get the people whipped into a frenzy, so they will agree to go to war. The people have gotten weary of war. It will take a steady stream of atrocities for the people to change their minds. Soon, the people will be demanding war.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> For an interesting take on the mindset of the middle east, read the first few chapters of "From Beruit to Jerusalem" by Thomas Friedman. I read it many years ago and still recall his evaluation of this. The people there descended from Bedouins and retain some of that cultural heritage. The Bedouin culture was based on power. They respect power and nothing else. Today's friend becomes tomorrow's enemy depending on how the shift of power plays out. Those people have no cultural inhibitions about lying, stealing or killing so long as it furthers their thirst for power.
> 
> Of course, the United States, unable to fathom such a culture and unwilling to educate themselves on history, swaggered into the middle east and stirred up a hornet's nest that had existed for eons. We have learned nothing from our experience. Of course they hate us. Of course alliances shift - THIS IS TO BE EXPECTED. We are horrified at their barbarism and don't understand how they can commit such atrocities. When the powerless have no other weapon, beheadings are sort of the ultimate tool for exerting power. That, and religious fanaticism appealing to the ignorant. As horrible as those acts were, they were nothing compared to what these people have done to each other and what they do as a matter of course to women.
> 
> I have no answers. I wish someone did. We got ourselves into a mess and I'm glad President Obama has not responded rashly. In the end, we cannot impose our beliefs, our values, our culture or our method of government on them. They must determine their own destiny.


Well said.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry Designer--I didn't mean to imply for a second that you harbored an unusually vindictive streak--without a doubt you're one of the nicest and sweetest ladies here.
> 
> But I think ISIS' murderous antics is putting everyone in the West in an emotional snarl. We're just not used to seeing this sort of unfathomable beastly behavior from our enemies, and I think we're all at a loss as to how to react. I heard one of the FF crowd say that the families of ISIS recruits should be captured and tortured on camera, and that's a very frightening sentiment. How can the West win against ISIS if, in the end, we come out sounding and acting just like them?


Muslim extremists are already willing to strap bombs to their wives and children. Why would anyone think that it wouldn't be an honor to sacrifice their families to allah?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, the vast amount of media attention is to get the people whipped into a frenzy, so they will agree to go to war. The people have gotten weary of war. It will take a steady stream of atrocities for the people to change their minds. Soon, the people will be demanding war.


Exactly. Very exactly.

(See I am a supportive friend again.)


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> When one believes and has faith without doubt, one "knows". What I "know", may not be what you know. To thine own self be true.


Then you've changed the meaning of the word "know." You may be certain, you may feel as though you know, but I can assure you that you don't *know* that the Bible's prophecies are about to come true or that today's news was prophesied. Believe all you like, but please don't speak as though you have a pipeline to the truth that the rest of us don't have. That would be more than exaggeration; it would be insanity.

P.S. - I hope you don't think "To thine own self be true" is biblical, or even philosophical.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> For an interesting take on the mindset of the middle east, read the first few chapters of "From Beruit to Jerusalem" by Thomas Friedman. I read it many years ago and still recall his evaluation of this. The people there descended from Bedouins and retain some of that cultural heritage. The Bedouin culture was based on power. They respect power and nothing else. Today's friend becomes tomorrow's enemy depending on how the shift of power plays out. Those people have no cultural inhibitions about lying, stealing or killing so long as it furthers their thirst for power.
> 
> Of course, the United States, unable to fathom such a culture and unwilling to educate themselves on history, swaggered into the middle east and stirred up a hornet's nest that had existed for eons. We have learned nothing from our experience. Of course they hate us. Of course alliances shift - THIS IS TO BE EXPECTED. We are horrified at their barbarism and don't understand how they can commit such atrocities. When the powerless have no other weapon, beheadings are sort of the ultimate tool for exerting power. That, and religious fanaticism appealing to the ignorant. As horrible as those acts were, they were nothing compared to what these people have done to each other and what they do as a matter of course to women.
> 
> I have no answers. I wish someone did. We got ourselves into a mess and I'm glad President Obama has not responded rashly. In the end, we cannot impose our beliefs, our values, our culture or our method of government on them. They must determine their own destiny.


Thanks for sharing this. I will only add that regardless of whether we try to impose our beliefs, values and culture on them, it is their intent to do the same to us. Are you familiar with the term "caliphate"? It makes for interesting reading.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> The President is certainly under enormous pressure and as you say, whatever course of action is taken, it will be seen by many as wrong.
> 
> The message I got when I listened to his announcement was the intended course of action was to avoid at all costs combat on the ground. I wonder though, whether that will be possible in the longer term. The ISIS tentacles reach far beyond their presence and fighting in the middle east and beyond the realms of any intelligence out there (in my opinion), and that is why it's going to be so difficult to confine 'combat' to the middle east.
> 
> The U.S and allies may very well find ground combat traversing through their own back yards. Grim.


IMO, any action will eventually lead to all out war.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry Designer--I didn't mean to imply for a second that you harbored an unusually vindictive streak--without a doubt you're one of the nicest and sweetest ladies here.
> 
> But I think ISIS' murderous antics is putting everyone in the West in an emotional snarl. We're just not used to seeing this sort of unfathomable beastly behavior from our enemies, and I think we're all at a loss as to how to react. I heard one of the FF crowd say that the families of ISIS recruits should be captured and tortured on camera, and that's a very frightening sentiment. How can the West win against ISIS if, in the end, we come out sounding and acting just like them?


================
That is the problem faced by the President and the people of America and that includes Canada in many ways. How do you deal with something that is so against everything we believe in here. sad indeed. I don't think those who suggested doing that in retaliation would do a bit of good. It just fans the flames and achieves nothing. We are known to be peaceful people - although I wonder if it will remain that way with the divisions developing. Very worrisome. I didn't think for a minute you thought that I considered you were attacking me in any way.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Muslim extremists are already willing to strap bombs to their wives and children. Why would anyone think that it wouldn't be an honor to sacrifice their families to allah?


But most Muslims are not extremists, not even in the Middle East. And as for the recruits from the Western countries, many of them apparently know diddly-squat about Islam--to the point where more than one has ordered "The Idiot's Guide to Islam" off the Internet. Crazies can be found in all religions--something pushes these folks off the deep end, but I suspect it has little to do with their innermost feelings about God or Allah.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, any action will eventually lead to all out war.


I hope you are wrong but I am worried that you are right. Scary indeed. What alternative do you believe he had - avoid reaction? would that have done any good? I personally think he had to react as they are thumbing their noses at America and will continue to behead anyone they can. If he doesn't react what will be the result? I wish I knew.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> But most Muslims are not extremists, not even in the Middle East. And as for the recruits from the Western countries, many of them apparently know diddly-squat about Islam--to the point where more than one has ordered "The Idiot's Guide to Islam" off the Internet. Crazies can be found in all religions--something pushes these folks off the deep end, but I suspect it has little to do with their innermost feelings about God or Allah.


I think you are correct in many ways. I seem to be wishy washy in my opinions but I honestly don't know what to feel should be done in this situation. I don't believe it would be good for the US to just ignore what is happening to their citizens, but I am not even sure of that. I think less publicity might help but that isn't going to happen. I am not one bit of help here but I will admit I hope his choice was correct. I would never blame him if it wasn't, as what other choice does he have except ignore or declare war. Neither would work.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Exactly. Very exactly.
> 
> (See I am a supportive friend again.)


Ahahaha! Hence the term, "fair weather friend".


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Then you've changed the meaning of the word "know." You may be certain, you may feel as though you know, but I can assure you that you don't *know* that the Bible's prophecies are about to come true or that today's news was prophesied. Believe all you like, but please don't speak as though you have a pipeline to the truth that the rest of us don't have. That would be more than exaggeration; it would be insanity.
> 
> P.S. - I hope you don't think "To thine own self be true" is biblical, or even philosophical.


I have tried repeatedly to explain what I meant. I give up!

Seriously?!? I thought a little Shakespeare for that middle ground.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I have tried repeatedly to explain what I meant. I give up!
> 
> Seriously?!? I thought a little Shakespeare for that middle ground.


Yes, you tried, but then you "knew." I'm tired of being told, as I have been all my life, that my beliefs are the wrong ones. When someone says she *knows* what's right, I tend just to get angry. And one of the worst sins to me is changing the meaning of a word (I still can't accept that "gay" no longer means cheerful and carefree).


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I think you are correct in many ways. I seem to be wishy washy in my opinions but I honestly don't know what to feel should be done in this situation. I don't believe it would be good for the US to just ignore what is happening to their citizens, but I am not even sure of that. I think less publicity might help but that isn't going to happen. I am not one bit of help here but I will admit I hope his choice was correct. I would never blame him if it wasn't, as what other choice does he have except ignore or declare war. Neither would work.


You're not being wishy-washy. No one knows what to do about this horrible situation. At least you are trying to work through what is happening on an intellectual level. Not a bad thing at all.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I think you are correct in many ways. I seem to be wishy washy in my opinions but I honestly don't know what to feel should be done in this situation. I don't believe it would be good for the US to just ignore what is happening to their citizens, but I am not even sure of that. I think less publicity might help but that isn't going to happen. I am not one bit of help here but I will admit I hope his choice was correct. I would never blame him if it wasn't, as what other choice does he have except ignore or declare war. Neither would work.


I'm certainly at a loss as well--what _can_ the West do? We ourselves don't want to fight a ground war, so we're aligning ourselves with the oh-so-democratic and merciful (NOT) governments of Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Saudi Arabia. That's sure to come back to haunt us, but fighting this out ourselves will probably mean hundreds of thousands of casualties. If we do nothing ISIS will roll right in here--if we fight we'll see Western heads being whacked off right and left--and if we encourage others to fight they'll no doubt turn around at some point and stab us in the back. I swear the only answer seems to be to seal the Middle East off with a huge brick wall and whistle a happy tune--that of course to cover the sounds of carnage coming from behind it.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks for sharing this. I will only add that regardless of whether we try to impose our beliefs, values and culture on them, it is their intent to do the same to us. Are you familiar with the term "caliphate"? It makes for interesting reading.


Yes, I have. Scary, eh? Still, I don't think subjecting the West to their caliphate has always been (even if it is now) a major goal. Back in the '50's we started meddling around where we didn't belong. For a long time all those "powers" in the middle east just wanted to be left alone and to not have western culture imposed on them. But we wanted oil...


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> But most Muslims are not extremists, not even in the Middle East. And as for the recruits from the Western countries, many of them apparently know diddly-squat about Islam--to the point where more than one has ordered "The Idiot's Guide to Islam" off the Internet. Crazies can be found in all religions--something pushes these folks off the deep end, but I suspect it has little to do with their innermost feelings about God or Allah.


You're right! Most Muslims are not extremists. But the ones we're talking about, are.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> For an interesting take on the mindset of the middle east, read the first few chapters of "From Beruit to Jerusalem" by Thomas Friedman. I read it many years ago and still recall his evaluation of this. The people there descended from Bedouins and retain some of that cultural heritage. The Bedouin culture was based on power. They respect power and nothing else. Today's friend becomes tomorrow's enemy depending on how the shift of power plays out. Those people have no cultural inhibitions about lying, stealing or killing so long as it furthers their thirst for power.
> 
> Of course, the United States, unable to fathom such a culture and unwilling to educate themselves on history, swaggered into the middle east and stirred up a hornet's nest that had existed for eons. We have learned nothing from our experience. Of course they hate us. Of course alliances shift - THIS IS TO BE EXPECTED. We are horrified at their barbarism and don't understand how they can commit such atrocities. When the powerless have no other weapon, beheadings are sort of the ultimate tool for exerting power. That, and religious fanaticism appealing to the ignorant. As horrible as those acts were, they were nothing compared to what these people have done to each other and what they do as a matter of course to women.
> 
> I have no answers. I wish someone did. We got ourselves into a mess and I'm glad President Obama has not responded rashly. In the end, we cannot impose our beliefs, our values, our culture or our method of government on them. They must determine their own destiny.


You express it very well. Much better than I can. I agree with your take on things for what it is worth.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Yes, I have. Scary, eh? Still, I don't think subjecting the West to their caliphate has always been (even if it is now) a major goal. Back in the '50's we started meddling around where we didn't belong. For a long time all those "powers" in the middle east just wanted to be left alone and to not have western culture imposed on them. But we wanted oil...


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EEEK!!!! There is a snake in my yard. 

Almost the entire back yard is covered in pavers and I noticed a couple of little bits that looked like droppings the other day. I saw more today so I tried to figure out what was coming into the yard. We live near the national forest, so raccoons and things like that are common, but we keep our gates tightly closed. So I looked up "what does snake poop look like" and my fears were confirmed. I left the yard clean and tonight when I went out to take veggie waste to the compost bin, there was a new, shiny, wet little piece of poop near my greenhouse. Talk about the heebie-jeebies. A small matter in the grand scheme of things, but IT CREEPS ME OUT.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Yes, I have. Scary, eh? Still, I don't think subjecting the West to their caliphate has always been (even if it is now) a major goal. Back in the '50's we started meddling around where we didn't belong. For a long time all those "powers" in the middle east just wanted to be left alone and to not have western culture imposed on them. But we wanted oil...


That is one statement I agree with completely. I think they have always wanted the west to mind their own business but it never happened. over and over and over the US and its friends - interfered with what was happening there.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> EEEK!!!! There is a snake in my yard.
> 
> Almost the entire back yard is covered in pavers and I noticed a couple of little bits that looked like droppings the other day. I saw more today so I tried to figure out what was coming into the yard. We live near the national forest, so raccoons and things like that are common, but we keep our gates tightly closed. So I looked up "what does snake poop look like" and my fears were confirmed. I left the yard clean and tonight when I went out to take veggie waste to the compost bin, there was a new, shiny, wet little piece of poop near my greenhouse. Talk about the heebie-jeebies. A small matter in the grand scheme of things, but IT CREEPS ME OUT.


Do you get rattle snakes in Payson or is it too chilly for them. I saw three when we were snowbirds in Mesa. We visited Payson for three hiking weekends - friends of ours had summer homes there and winter home in Mesa.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I hope you are wrong but I am worried that you are right. Scary indeed. What alternative do you believe he had - avoid reaction? would that have done any good? I personally think he had to react as they are thumbing their noses at America and will continue to behead anyone they can. If he doesn't react what will be the result? I wish I knew.


I think the time to act has passed. IMO, all of this was set into play before obama took office. I believe that there was to plan to destabilize the middle east, by overturning governments. The void created by taking out Hussen in Iraq, allowed for the extremists to take charge. BUT, Obama contributed by going along with the plan of taking out the leaders of several more countries, ie Egypt, Lybia and Syria. He also funded the fsa (free Syrian army), Al nusra (Al qaida in Syria) and IS (Al qaida in Iraq). He used these extremist groups to fulfill the agenda and either these groups have turned against us OR this is just a continuation of the agenda.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think the time to act has passed. IMO, all of this was set into play before obama took office. I believe that there was to plan to destabilize the middle east, by overturning governments. The void created by taking out Hussen in Iraq, allowed for the extremists to take charge. BUT, Obama contributed by going along with the plan of taking out the leaders of several more countries, ie Egypt, Lybia and Syria. He also funded the fsa (free Syrian army), Al nusra (Al qaida in Syria) and IS (Al qaida in Iraq). He used these extremist groups to fulfill the agenda and either these groups have turned against us OR this is just a continuation of the agenda.


I agree with you, Nebraska--the scene in the Middle East has our fingerprints all over it. We topple one government and replace it with another that seems friendlier, back the baddies in hopes that they'll defeat someone even worse, sell arms to rebels so they can harass other rebels backed by Russian or China...and on and on it goes. And since we're now palling up with Iran and Syria it appears we haven't learned a darn thing.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Do you get rattle snakes in Payson or is it too chilly for them. I saw three when we were snowbirds in Mesa. We visited Payson for three hiking weekends - friends of ours had summer homes there and winter home in Mesa.


Yes, we have rattlesnakes here.

Hope you enjoyed our beautiful state. The drive from Mesa to Payson is delightful, beautiful, and dear to my heart. Lived in the valley for 50+ years and when we retired we "got out of Dodge" and up here to cooler weather. We LOVE it here.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Yes, you tried, but then you "knew." I'm tired of being told, as I have been all my life, that my beliefs are the wrong ones. When someone says she *knows* what's right, I tend just to get angry. And one of the worst sins to me is changing the meaning of a word (I still can't accept that "gay" no longer means cheerful and carefree).


I've not told you what to believe. I've not told you that I am right. I've not tried to convince you. I've not tried to change you. I told you that I "know"! I'm sorry that you can't understand that. Your anger is your own. Perhaps it's time to let go of it. I understand from things you've said in the past that people have said terrible things to you about being a Jew, ie you're going to h*ll. I've not said anything like that and I'm not those people. And if you're sincere about one of the worst "sins" being, changing the meanings of words, I couldn't agree with you more!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Yes, we have rattlesnakes here.
> 
> Hope you enjoyed our beautiful state. The drive from Mesa to Payson is delightful, beautiful, and dear to my heart. Lived in the valley for 50+ years and when we retired we "got out of Dodge" and up here to cooler weather. We LOVE it here.


I fell in love with everything about Arizona. We spent 11 winters there until my husband got sick and our health care wouldn't cover the costs we would have had if he had gotten ill down there. I still miss it. We were in a park on Superstition and Ellsworth (Valle del Oro) and my husband hiked through out Arizona - we went for 3 weekends to Payson and I loved it. You have the best of both worlds. I did love the desert and did a lot of my art in southwestern themes. It was a wonderful time in our lives and I don't have one moment's unhappy time down there.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm certainly at a loss as well--what _can_ the West do? We ourselves don't want to fight a ground war, so we're aligning ourselves with the oh-so-democratic and merciful (NOT) governments of Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Saudi Arabia. That's sure to come back to haunt us, but fighting this out ourselves will probably mean hundreds of thousands of casualties. If we do nothing ISIS will roll right in here--if we fight we'll see Western heads being whacked off right and left--and if we encourage others to fight they'll no doubt turn around at some point and stab us in the back. I swear the only answer seems to be to seal the Middle East off with a huge brick wall and whistle a happy tune--that of course to cover the sounds of carnage coming from behind it.


Now, I hadn't even considered THAT solution! :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> You express it very well. Much better than I can. I agree with your take on things for what it is worth.


Thank you!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Yes, I have. Scary, eh? Still, I don't think subjecting the West to their caliphate has always been (even if it is now) a major goal. Back in the '50's we started meddling around where we didn't belong. For a long time all those "powers" in the middle east just wanted to be left alone and to not have western culture imposed on them. But we wanted oil...


I absolutely agree! But I do think that the extremists want a caliphate.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> EEEK!!!! There is a snake in my yard.
> 
> Almost the entire back yard is covered in pavers and I noticed a couple of little bits that looked like droppings the other day. I saw more today so I tried to figure out what was coming into the yard. We live near the national forest, so raccoons and things like that are common, but we keep our gates tightly closed. So I looked up "what does snake poop look like" and my fears were confirmed. I left the yard clean and tonight when I went out to take veggie waste to the compost bin, there was a new, shiny, wet little piece of poop near my greenhouse. Talk about the heebie-jeebies. A small matter in the grand scheme of things, but IT CREEPS ME OUT.


OMG! Move away! Just kidding. Is there such a thing as a snake trap? It would creep me out as well!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree with you, Nebraska--the scene in the Middle East has our fingerprints all over it. We topple one government and replace it with another that seems friendlier, back the baddies in hopes that they'll defeat someone even worse, sell arms to rebels so they can harass other rebels backed by Russian or China...and on and on it goes. And since we're now palling up with Iran and Syria it appears we haven't learned a darn thing.


It's one big giant chess board to some. And we're the pawns!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Yes, we have rattlesnakes here.
> 
> Hope you enjoyed our beautiful state. The drive from Mesa to Payson is delightful, beautiful, and dear to my heart. Lived in the valley for 50+ years and when we retired we "got out of Dodge" and up here to cooler weather. We LOVE it here.


I've only been as far south as Sedona. We loved it and intend to go back. We've been to the Grand Canyon twice. Beautiful country, where you live! When you say you lived in the valley for 50 years, where was that? I'm not that familiar with the area.

PS. We HAD to go to Winslow, to stand on the corner.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I've not told you what to believe. I've not told you that I am right. I've not tried to convince you. I've not tried to change you. I told you that I "know"! I'm sorry that you can't understand that. Your anger is your own. Perhaps it's time to let go of it. I understand from things you've said in the past that people have said terrible things to you about being a Jew, ie you're going to h*ll. I've not said anything like that and I'm not those people. And if you're sincere about one of the worst "sins" being, changing the meanings of words, I couldn't agree with you more!


Of course you've told me you were right; that's exactly what "I know" means. Except for one person on KP, nobody ever said "terrible" things to me about being a Jew, though as a young teen I was hit a lot by two Irish sisters. If anyone had told me I was going to hell, I'd have laughed in their face.

I wish I'd never started this; all I objected to was your using the word "know" about things you can't possibly know until either you die or the Second Coming happens while you're alive. It's getting to be a huge bore.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Of course you've told me you were right; that's exactly what "I know" means. Except for one person on KP, nobody ever said "terrible" things to me about being a Jew, though as a young teen I was hit a lot by two Irish sisters. If anyone had told me I was going to hell, I'd have laughed in their face.
> 
> I wish I'd never started this; all I objected to was your using the word "know" about things you can't possibly know until either you die or the Second Coming happens while you're alive. It's getting to be a huge bore.


I agree!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree!


See, here's something else we agree about!

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> See, here's something else we agree about!
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:


Yup! There's always that! :lol:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Purl, what's your opinion on this ISIS stuff? What do you think should be done? Where do you think it's headed?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Purl, what's your opinion on this ISIS stuff? What do you think should be done? Where do you think it's headed?


I have no idea.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

So...according to this article, the coalition to fight ISIS, is not coming together very well.
http://www.debka.com/article/24271/US-Gen-John-Allen-named-to-lead-coalition-war-on-ISIS-but-allies-deterred-by-Obama%E2%80%99s-ambiguities


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Ahahaha! Hence the term, "fair weather friend".


Politically you have always had insight. But I cannot follow you into the apocalypse. So I am an honest friend delineating my opinion. You will never hear me gripe about your understanding of power.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I absolutely agree! But I do think that the extremists want a caliphate.


Your guess is as good as anyone's.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> OMG! Move away! Just kidding. Is there such a thing as a snake trap? It would creep me out as well!


Monday I call the exterminators.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So...according to this article, the coalition to fight ISIS, is not coming together very well.
> http://www.debka.com/article/24271/US-Gen-John-Allen-named-to-lead-coalition-war-on-ISIS-but-allies-deterred-by-Obama%E2%80%99s-ambiguities


Looks as if Oz is in. Mr Rabbit has just put his hands up and shouted "me too, me too".

The Federal Government is sending 600 Australian troops to the Middle East in preparation for military action against Islamic State (IS) militants in Iraq.
Prime Minister Tony Abbott said the United States had specifically requested Australia contribute to an international strike against the militants, who have captured large swathes of territory in Iraq and Syria.
Mr Abbott said around 200 troops would be sent to the United Arab Emirates shortly, including a Special Forces contingent "that could act as military advisers to the Iraqi armed forces or to the Peshmerga".
They would be followed by around 400 Air Force personnel, up to eight super hornets, an early warning and control aircraft and an aerial refuelling aircraft.
Mr Abbott said the deployment was a "prudent and proportionate" contribution to the international coalition, and added that a final decision on committing the troops to combat action had not yet been made.
"Again I stress that this is essentially a humanitarian operation to protect millions of people in Iraq from the murderous rage of the ISIL movement," he said, using an alternative name for IS. 
"Again I stress that this movement is neither Islamic nor a state. It is a death cult reaching out to countries such as Australia.
"This is about taking prudent and proportionate action to protect our country and to protect the wider world against an unprecedented terrorist threat."
Mr Abbott said Cabinet and the National Security Committee met earlier on Sunday to discuss the matter.
He said the action was part of an international coalition, "not simply something that is an American-Australian operation". 
"So far, there are a number of countries, western and Middle Eastern, that have indicated that they are prepared to contribute to military operations inside Iraq," Mr Abbott said.
"The United States, the United Kingdom, France, Canada, Jordan, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates, as well as Australia."
Australia has previously delivered weapons to outgunned Kurdish forces and dropped humanitarian aid to communities under siege from IS.
Mr Abbott said "there are obviously further decisions to be taken" before Australian forces commit to combat action against IS militants.
"Should this extend into combat operations, it could go on for some time," he said.
Mr Abbott said IS militants were responsible for "cruelty on an extraordinary scale".
"We've seen beheadings, crucifixions, we've seen mass executions, we've seen hundreds of thousands of people driven from their homes, we've had women forced into sexual slavery, we've had the deaths of very young children, we've had tens of thousands of people besieged on Mount Sinjar," Mr Abbott said.
"What we have seen is an exaltation in atrocity unparalleled since the Middle Ages. 
"Where does this come from, what evil in the human heart gives rise to this, I just don't know. All I know is that decent people everywhere regardless of their religion, regardless of their culture, should unite against it."
Mr Abbott will visit New York on September 24 and 25 to participate in the high-level UN Security Council meeting which is to be convened by US president Barack Obama.
Last week, in a speech broadcast live to the nation, Mr Obama said he would not send US combat troops to fight IS, and that the US would act in concert with a broad coalition including Western allies and Arab states.
"Our objective is clear: we will degrade and ultimately destroy ISIL through a comprehensive and sustained counter-terrorism strategy," the president said.
Mr Obama outlined a four-pronged strategy which included expanded air strikes and sending another 475 troops to train local forces.
Mr Abbott's announcement came after IS released a video purporting to show the beheading of captured British aid worker David Haines.
The footage, described by British prime minister David Cameron as "pure evil", followed the same pattern as videos of showing the murder of American journalists James Foley and Steven Sotloff.
Mr Abbott said he reacted to the video with "shock, horror, outrage, fury", adding that it strengthened his resolve to defeat IS.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I've only been as far south as Sedona. We loved it and intend to go back. We've been to the Grand Canyon twice. Beautiful country, where you live! When you say you lived in the valley for 50 years, where was that? I'm not that familiar with the area.
> 
> PS. We HAD to go to Winslow, to stand on the corner.


Another Eagles fan! Yeah!

The Valley is the Valley of the Sun - Phoenix and suburbs. I lived in Tempe for many years and then in Mesa from 1999 to 2013. My children both live in the Valley as well as my husband's children. Payson is SMALL. We have three grocery stores - Basha's (privately owned by Arizonans), Safeway and the dreaded WalMart. I save up a list of things I need and trek to Phoenix at least once a month to shop and stock up on stuff from my beloved Costco. No craft stores, almost nowhere to shop for clothes here. But we do have 14 thrift stores. And a club for just about any conceivable interest due to the large population of retirees. Great hiking trails. Easy to access camping so our RV gets used often. (Just got back last month from a trip to Alaska w/the RV. Wow.) Hospital - so-so. I have a bad heart so if I have any problem it's a 75-mile ambulance ride to Mesa - or a helicopter ride, but there are lots of cardiologists here to take care of us old folk! FedEx and UPS both stop at my house often. This time of year the air dries out and our skies are impossibly blue. Great place to be.

Except for that damned snake.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Looks as if Oz is in. Mr Rabbit has just put his hands up and shouted "me too, me too".
> 
> quote]
> 
> It would be nice if Saudi Arabia and other ME countries would step up and accept responsibility instead of depending on the rest of the world to protect them. Aussie and American and other advisors will be in harm's way like never before.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Monday I call the exterminators.


Why call the exterminators? Because of a snake in the garden? I opened the garage roller door a couple of years ago and a huge dugite (an Aussie poisonous snake) fell at my feet. It was more scared of me than I was of it and it soon scuttled away in the bush. I was trying to close the back security door another time and the door kept going klunk, klunk, klunk. Yes, I was trying to jam a poor snake in the door when I was closing it. It slithered away. Dugites and Tiger snakes are both very venomous and both are protected by law so you cannot kill them. You cannot have them exterminated. You can call the snake busters who will relocate the snake to bush somewhere else, but why bother, if there is one snake there are bound to be more. They have never bothered me, guess it is because we grew up with snakes in the bush around the house. Snakes have the right to exist, they perform a vital function in nature. They eat rats, for a start, and I would rather have a snake than a rat, and yes we do have rats in the back shed. The guy next door breeds caged birds, rabbits and has chooks, as well as just so much junk stacked around the place, of course there will be rats, both the marsupial native rat and the imported brown rat.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Why call the exterminators? Because of a snake in the garden? I opened the garage roller door a couple of years ago and a huge dugite (an Aussie poisonous snake) fell at my feet. It was more scared of me than I was of it and it soon scuttled away in the bush. I was trying to close the back security door another time and the door kept going klunk, klunk, klunk. Yes, I was trying to jam a poor snake in the door when I was closing it. It slithered away. Dugites and Tiger snakes are both very venomous and both are protected by law so you cannot kill them. You cannot have them exterminated. You can call the snake busters who will relocate the snake to bush somewhere else, but why bother, if there is one snake there are bound to be more. They have never bothered me, guess it is because we grew up with snakes in the bush around the house. Snakes have the right to exist, they perform a vital function in nature. They eat rats, for a start, and I would rather have a snake than a rat, and yes we do have rats in the back shed. The guy next door breeds caged birds, rabbits and has chooks, as well as just so much junk stacked around the place, of course there will be rats, both the marsupial native rat and the imported brown rat.


You are one brave woman. I'm fearful I could have a rattlesnake in residence and I don't want to be surprised by one when I'm outside trimming or whatever. You have given me reason to think, though. Yes, snakes do have an important place in nature and if we find it is a harmless snake, I'll live and let live. If it's a rattler, though, he's a goner.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> It certainly doesn't help that everything they do is broadcast around the world and that is obviously why they are doing what they are doing to get more attention. If there were no international news they would lose the interest in making a statement - I agree with you. I still doubt it would change their major objective whatever that is.


I think it's gone past the stage of understanding them. We must destroy them. (That hurts to say, but I'm afraid we have no choice. I don't think we can isolate them and remove their weapons.)


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry Designer--I didn't mean to imply for a second that you harbored an unusually vindictive streak--without a doubt you're one of the nicest and sweetest ladies here.
> 
> But I think ISIS' murderous antics is putting everyone in the West in an emotional snarl. We're just not used to seeing this sort of unfathomable beastly behavior from our enemies, and I think we're all at a loss as to how to react. I heard one of the FF crowd say that the families of ISIS recruits should be captured and tortured on camera, and that's a very frightening sentiment. How can the West win against ISIS if, in the end, we come out sounding and acting just like them?


I don't for a moment think we should torture their families. But I have decided that we must stop them anyway we can...drones...covert operations...extensive intelligence.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree with your suggestions. But may I add...stop training, funding and supplying terrorists. Even the "moderate ones".


Good point.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree. We don't understand....cannot influence them...must defend ourselves...and exert our own power in such a way that they understand we respect their rights to govern themselves, but we will not tolerate their actions against citizens from other countries. And, our governments should warn people to stay out of their countries, and expel all visitors and students of theirs from our countries. IMHO

Ideas please. I don't like the conclusions I'm reaching.



DGreen said:


> For an interesting take on the mindset of the middle east, read the first few chapters of "From Beruit to Jerusalem" by Thomas Friedman. I read it many years ago and still recall his evaluation of this. The people there descended from Bedouins and retain some of that cultural heritage. The Bedouin culture was based on power. They respect power and nothing else. Today's friend becomes tomorrow's enemy depending on how the shift of power plays out. Those people have no cultural inhibitions about lying, stealing or killing so long as it furthers their thirst for power.
> 
> Of course, the United States, unable to fathom such a culture and unwilling to educate themselves on history, swaggered into the middle east and stirred up a hornet's nest that had existed for eons. We have learned nothing from our experience. Of course they hate us. Of course alliances shift - THIS IS TO BE EXPECTED. We are horrified at their barbarism and don't understand how they can commit such atrocities. When the powerless have no other weapon, beheadings are sort of the ultimate tool for exerting power. That, and religious fanaticism appealing to the ignorant. As horrible as those acts were, they were nothing compared to what these people have done to each other and what they do as a matter of course to women.
> 
> I have no answers. I wish someone did. We got ourselves into a mess and I'm glad President Obama has not responded rashly. In the end, we cannot impose our beliefs, our values, our culture or our method of government on them. They must determine their own destiny.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I totally agree with your last sentence. Under the circumstances, totally reasonable.


Thanks for the reality check. I don't like the conclusions I'm reaching, and I wonder if I'm missing something.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think we need to isolate them respecting their right to the government they choose. Abandon all nonsense thinking we will fight to bring democracy to them. It means nothing to them, and we must respect that.



Wombatnomore said:


> The President is certainly under enormous pressure and as you say, whatever course of action is taken, it will be seen by many as wrong.
> 
> The message I got when I listened to his announcement was the intended course of action was to avoid at all costs combat on the ground. I wonder though, whether that will be possible in the longer term. The ISIS tentacles reach far beyond their presence and fighting in the middle east and beyond the realms of any intelligence out there (in my opinion), and that is why it's going to be so difficult to confine 'combat' to the middle east.
> 
> The U.S and allies may very well find ground combat traversing through their own back yards. Grim.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Then you've changed the meaning of the word "know." You may be certain, you may feel as though you know, but I can assure you that you don't *know* that the Bible's prophecies are about to come true or that today's news was prophesied. Believe all you like, but please don't speak as though you have a pipeline to the truth that the rest of us don't have. That would be more than exaggeration; it would be insanity.
> 
> P.S. - I hope you don't think "To thine own self be true" is biblical, or even philosophical.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I hope you are wrong but I am worried that you are right. Scary indeed. What alternative do you believe he had - avoid reaction? would that have done any good? I personally think he had to react as they are thumbing their noses at America and will continue to behead anyone they can. If he doesn't react what will be the result? I wish I knew.


I sincerely hope journalists, aid workers, and all others especially from Western countries are warned not to enter Syria etc. They are targets of attack and our governments are unable to protect them. Let's not make it easy for them.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm with you....and with the President.



Designer1234 said:


> I think you are correct in many ways. I seem to be wishy washy in my opinions but I honestly don't know what to feel should be done in this situation. I don't believe it would be good for the US to just ignore what is happening to their citizens, but I am not even sure of that. I think less publicity might help but that isn't going to happen. I am not one bit of help here but I will admit I hope his choice was correct. I would never blame him if it wasn't, as what other choice does he have except ignore or declare war. Neither would work.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> You're not being wishy-washy. No one knows what to do about this horrible situation. At least you are trying to work through what is happening on an intellectual level. Not a bad thing at all.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm certainly at a loss as well--what _can_ the West do? We ourselves don't want to fight a ground war, so we're aligning ourselves with the oh-so-democratic and merciful (NOT) governments of Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Saudi Arabia. That's sure to come back to haunt us, but fighting this out ourselves will probably mean hundreds of thousands of casualties. If we do nothing ISIS will roll right in here--if we fight we'll see Western heads being whacked off right and left--and if we encourage others to fight they'll no doubt turn around at some point and stab us in the back. I swear the only answer seems to be to seal the Middle East off with a huge brick wall and whistle a happy tune--that of course to cover the sounds of carnage coming from behind it.


I'm afraid I'm coming to the brick wall conclusion.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Yes, I have. Scary, eh? Still, I don't think subjecting the West to their caliphate has always been (even if it is now) a major goal. Back in the '50's we started meddling around where we didn't belong. For a long time all those "powers" in the middle east just wanted to be left alone and to not have western culture imposed on them. But we wanted oil...


And we can't have it all. IMHO We have other sources of oil. We must develop alternate energy sources.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm squeamish about snakes too. I'll watch anything else in the backyard with rapt attention. I especially adore my goldfish pond with leopard frogs and mosquito fish along with the goldfish and an occasional guppy.

One day I found a good sized snake that swims. You probably heard me scream. Called and no one available to come. It was a real fight.



DGreen said:


> EEEK!!!! There is a snake in my yard.
> 
> Almost the entire back yard is covered in pavers and I noticed a couple of little bits that looked like droppings the other day. I saw more today so I tried to figure out what was coming into the yard. We live near the national forest, so raccoons and things like that are common, but we keep our gates tightly closed. So I looked up "what does snake poop look like" and my fears were confirmed. I left the yard clean and tonight when I went out to take veggie waste to the compost bin, there was a new, shiny, wet little piece of poop near my greenhouse. Talk about the heebie-jeebies. A small matter in the grand scheme of things, but IT CREEPS ME OUT.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Please provide sources. I don't see it this way at all. Thanks.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think the time to act has passed. IMO, all of this was set into play before obama took office. I believe that there was to plan to destabilize the middle east, by overturning governments. The void created by taking out Hussen in Iraq, allowed for the extremists to take charge. BUT, Obama contributed by going along with the plan of taking out the leaders of several more countries, ie Egypt, Lybia and Syria. He also funded the fsa (free Syrian army), Al nusra (Al qaida in Syria) and IS (Al qaida in Iraq). He used these extremist groups to fulfill the agenda and either these groups have turned against us OR this is just a continuation of the agenda.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> OMG! Move away! Just kidding. Is there such a thing as a snake trap? It would creep me out as well!


No snake trap for me. Just hysterics and a strong DH and a sharp shovel.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

'Valley' here is Valley of the Sun....Phoenix area. More jobs...more traffic and congestion.

To me the Grand Canyon is in a class by itself...South Rim....North Rim (1,000 feet higher. Jerome and Bisbee are old mining towns. Four Corners area where Arizona, Utah, Nevada and New Mexico touch....Petrified Forest...Painted Desert and so much more. Tucson has a mountain on the edge of town so you have several climates at hand. Desert Sonoran Museum, Organ Pipe National Forest and much more.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I've only been as far south as Sedona. We loved it and intend to go back. We've been to the Grand Canyon twice. Beautiful country, where you live! When you say you lived in the valley for 50 years, where was that? I'm not that familiar with the area.
> 
> PS. We HAD to go to Winslow, to stand on the corner.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I was threatening a hand grenade when my husband finally killed the snake in my yard.

Have you seen La Posada hotel? Done by Mary Coulter right on railway line? Renovated by artist. Kingman or Winslow, I think.



DGreen said:


> Another Eagles fan! Yeah!
> 
> The Valley is the Valley of the Sun - Phoenix and suburbs. I lived in Tempe for many years and then in Mesa from 1999 to 2013. My children both live in the Valley as well as my husband's children. Payson is SMALL. We have three grocery stores - Basha's (privately owned by Arizonans), Safeway and the dreaded WalMart. I save up a list of things I need and trek to Phoenix at least once a month to shop and stock up on stuff from my beloved Costco. No craft stores, almost nowhere to shop for clothes here. But we do have 14 thrift stores. And a club for just about any conceivable interest due to the large population of retirees. Great hiking trails. Easy to access camping so our RV gets used often. (Just got back last month from a trip to Alaska w/the RV. Wow.) Hospital - so-so. I have a bad heart so if I have any problem it's a 75-mile ambulance ride to Mesa - or a helicopter ride, but there are lots of cardiologists here to take care of us old folk! FedEx and UPS both stop at my house often. This time of year the air dries out and our skies are impossibly blue. Great place to be.
> 
> Except for that damned snake.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> EveMCooke said:
> 
> 
> > Looks as if Oz is in. Mr Rabbit has just put his hands up and shouted "me too, me too".
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Why call the exterminators? Because of a snake in the garden? I opened the garage roller door a couple of years ago and a huge dugite (an Aussie poisonous snake) fell at my feet. It was more scared of me than I was of it and it soon scuttled away in the bush. I was trying to close the back security door another time and the door kept going klunk, klunk, klunk. Yes, I was trying to jam a poor snake in the door when I was closing it. It slithered away. Dugites and Tiger snakes are both very venomous and both are protected by law so you cannot kill them. You cannot have them exterminated. You can call the snake busters who will relocate the snake to bush somewhere else, but why bother, if there is one snake there are bound to be more. They have never bothered me, guess it is because we grew up with snakes in the bush around the house. Snakes have the right to exist, they perform a vital function in nature. They eat rats, for a start, and I would rather have a snake than a rat, and yes we do have rats in the back shed. The guy next door breeds caged birds, rabbits and has chooks, as well as just so much junk stacked around the place, of course there will be rats, both the marsupial native rat and the imported brown rat.


I respect the logic of what you're saying, but logic escapes me at a time like this.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You are one brave woman. I'm fearful I could have a rattlesnake in residence and I don't want to be surprised by one when I'm outside trimming or whatever. You have given me reason to think, though. Yes, snakes do have an important place in nature and if we find it is a harmless snake, I'll live and let live. If it's a rattler, though, he's a goner.


Our tiger snake is related to the rattle snake and is very aggressive and venomous. I have had several encounters with them over the years, plus a few encounters with the Red Bellied Black and King Brown in Queensland. The snake is generally more afraid of you than you are of them, just give them notice that you are there. Walk loudly or talk loudly and they generally slither away. The tiger snake will stand its ground and keep coming though.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> I don't for a moment think we should torture their families. But I have decided that we must stop them anyway we can...drones...covert operations...extensive intelligence.


Did someone here on KP advocate capturing and torturing the families of the terrorists? I missed that. If we tortured their families that would only lower us to their level and it would increase their hatred towards us. I have heard that they use the XBox first person shooter games as training videos. The young people play these videos and because the heroes in the games have rapid recovery rates the watcher believes that they will also survive such an attack. Maybe we should look at the level of violence in these online and console games. The people who play them get so het up. But we do need to stop people going overseas to fight with these terrorist groups and we need to stop people encouraging them to go. No, I do not know what steps need to be taken. ASIO has said that they are monitoring the chatter on online chat sites, so I guess that even my discussions here on KP are being monitored by ASIO. ASIO Australian Securities and Intelligence Organisation, thought I had better clarify that. But, Mr Rabbit has held his hand up and said "me too" so Oz is committed to sending troops, planes, and whatever.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Then you've changed the meaning of the word "know." You may be certain, you may feel as though you know, but I can assure you that you don't *know* that the Bible's prophecies are about to come true or that today's news was prophesied. Believe all you like, but please don't speak as though you have a pipeline to the truth that the rest of us don't have. That would be more than exaggeration; it would be insanity.
> 
> P.S. - I hope you don't think "To thine own self be true" is biblical, or even philosophical.


To thine own self be true Shakespeare Hamlet Act 1, scene 3, 7882.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> I was threatening a hand grenade when my husband finally killed the snake in my yard.


Snakes are a protected species in Australia, meaning you can be fined if you kill one unnecessarily. If there is one snake there is bound to be more, so killing one snake would not solve the problem. We can call the snake busters, but I do not bother. If I see a snake in the garden I just avoid it and it avoids me. They do not faze me, they did not faze me as a child, they were just part of the environment where we lived. They do not hunt humans like the large cats or the polar bear hunt humans.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Another beheading. This time a Brit.

And Obama still thinks we are not at war and airstrikes are effective?

Wonder if he backs away from airstrikes to stop the beheadings? Don't believe he has the stomach or courage to do what needs to be done, and ISIS knows it.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> Another beheading. This time a Brit.
> 
> And Obama still thinks we are not at war and airstrikes are effective?
> 
> Wonder if he backs away from airstrikes to stop the beheadings? Don't believe he has the stomach or courage to do what needs to be done, and ISIS knows it.


I believe he expanded air strikes. This situation will never be solved by mindless, knee-jerk escalation of the fighting. Or by the US alone.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, the vast amount of media attention is to get the people whipped into a frenzy, so they will agree to go to war. The people have gotten weary of war. It will take a steady stream of atrocities for the people to change their minds. Soon, the people will be demanding war.


I have to disagree with some of what you said. I am not as sure as you are about so many things. I think it would be nice to be so sure about what will happen and what should happen, that it can be stated as a fact. The older I get the more I realize how little one individual knows. Also how little influence one individual has in the total picture. The only way is for us to do the best we can, make sure we vote, publicize what we believe so our thoughts are known. I would never think to say - Soon, the people will be demanding war. I feel better saying there is a good possibility that the people will demand a war. I just am not as black and white in my opinions as you are. When I was younger I KNEW a lot more - now I know I don't KNOW nearly as much as I thought I did.

I also have a slightly different opinion of the media. They are a business but there are some excellent news people out there. They are not responsible for what is happening in my opinion although they might contribute. During World War II, very little truth was told to the people - certainly in Canada and the US. We were not aware of so many things that happened during the war until many years later. I don't think that is the solution either. I believe that citizens should know what is happening - we were not told so much and decisions were made that were very poor in my opinion, but were not publicized because they knew the citizens would not stand for certain things. That is also my own and only my opinion. The US and Canada were not told the truth about many things. The truth was not always told in the schools. Although more of the truth was told here than in the States in my opinion. The winning of the war was slanted and the contribution of other countries was just about ignored in the schools, newspapers and your history--

The truth has come out more and more with the internet and the passing of opinions of other people from other places around the world. I have learned so much from the internet - so i can't say it is a bad thing.

To me discussion like this helps us make decisions about how we want to contribute to what we believe are the right steps by letting our Politicians know in a loud voice.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Our tiger snake is related to the rattle snake and is very aggressive and venomous. I have had several encounters with them over the years, plus a few encounters with the Red Bellied Black and King Brown in Queensland. The snake is generally more afraid of you than you are of them, just give them notice that you are there. Walk loudly or talk loudly and they generally slither away. The tiger snake will stand its ground and keep coming though.


Whew--glad I don't live in Australia as I'm scared to death of snakes. Years ago I was loading my infant son into the car and heard a funny noise. Looked all around for the source, finally glanced down and found a rattler coiled at my feet, poised to strike. Yow!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Another beheading. This time a Brit.
> 
> And Obama still thinks we are not at war and airstrikes are effective?
> 
> Wonder if he backs away from airstrikes to stop the beheadings? Don't believe he has the stomach or courage to do what needs to be done, and ISIS knows it.


==================

This is an honest question. What do YOU think he should do-- exactly and specifically. Not because it is him that is the President, but what should your country's reaction be? Do you think you should declare war and send your troops into battle on the ground? Do you think there is a better answer than his plan? I really wonder if you will answer truthfully, without twisting it to attack Obama- I have looked back and have not found a post that wasn't an attack on him on any of the threads. I don't remember reading any.

What do you think he should have said in his speech. You say he won't do what needs to be done -- what do you think needs to be done? Please state your opinion and be specific.

This is not an attack against you. You make statements against him but you don't give alternatives to his actions.

Please do so . we are interested in what you think is the right action for the United States to take. I speak for myself but I also think others here would like to know what the alternatives should be in your opinion.

In this case, when it is really really important - what do you think is needed - go to a ground war? Or try to do what he is trying to do.The main theme of all your posts is your dislike (hatred?) of Obama - he is the President right now and had to make a decision. You say it isn't a good one -- what do you think he should have done? I am repeating my question, as I am hoping that you will give us an honest answer.

You have stated your opinion about the President over and over -- so no need to repeat it - We know your opinion of the President. We don't know what you think the alternatives are. Personally, I for one would be interested in knowing how YOU feel. Not how much you hate Obama., we already know that.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Another beheading. This time a Brit.
> 
> And Obama still thinks we are not at war and airstrikes are effective?
> 
> Wonder if he backs away from airstrikes to stop the beheadings? Don't believe he has the stomach or courage to do what needs to be done, and ISIS knows it.


Yep, guess you and ISIS are of one mind in more than a few areas. Maybe you could earn a little pin money by accepting a position in said organization as strategic planner and adviser.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> Please provide sources. I don't see it this way at all. Thanks.


I would like to know where you get the information that it was all planned by the US and others? I agree with damemary. You state it was set up before Obama was elected, that is at least something. So was it set up by Bush?

I am not sure exactly what you are saying.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Ooops.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> So far this seems to be a religious war. hat in part with a fervent desire to expand ISIS area
> of influence


I'm not sure, Maid. Numerous "big wheels" in the Islamic world have spoken out against ISIS and told them to stop, and the recruits haven't batted a (rat's) whisker.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> Another beheading. This time a Brit.
> 
> And Obama still thinks we are not at war and airstrikes are effective?
> 
> Wonder if he backs away from airstrikes to stop the beheadings? Don't believe he has the stomach or courage to do what needs to be done, and ISIS knows it.


I don't see any other country charging in. The situation globally is very complex and I rather Obama think things thru, talk with advisors and then move. Once in, it is hard to get out. He needs brains rather than stomachs.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> When one believes and has faith without doubt, one "knows". What I "know", may not be what you know. To thine own self be true.


No, I'm sorry to say that belief without doubt doesn't equal knowledge. It equals belief without doubt.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Then you've changed the meaning of the word "know." You may be certain, you may feel as though you know, but I can assure you that you don't *know* that the Bible's prophecies are about to come true or that today's news was prophesied. Believe all you like, but please don't speak as though you have a pipeline to the truth that the rest of us don't have. That would be more than exaggeration; it would be insanity.
> 
> P.S. - I hope you don't think "To thine own self be true" is biblical, or even philosophical.


PP, I agree with you. Yes I know we have been fighting since day one.
But on this I will have my say, you are right in what you have said.

KFN you said there are wars and rumors of wars, and this is a sign and it does say so in the Bible.

But through the centuries this has happen. There have been signs just like we are seeing today. Does that mean the world is about to see the rath of God?? I for one do not know. He may come tomorrow, next week, a month from now, a year from now, or years to come. We are to prepare, but we can not predict.

Even in our times it was predicted that this was about to happen. Remember 2000 and how everyone was preparing for the end. They thought they saw the signs. It was man's thoughts not God's thoughts or time.

Not one not one, not even Jesus knows the hour of the book being unsealed. Yes we are to be wise and see the signs and wonders, and be perpared. For we know not when he will return. But if I read right this has happen down through the centuries and has not happen.

Even I at times have said the end is now happening. But what PP has said made me really think on these things. I do not know if I should even be pronouncing it. I question my thoughts and think no I do not know the mind of God.

We are told in the Bible to tell of Jesus and how to be saved. That I know for sure. But we do not know when the end will be.

Jewish people to this day are assailed for their beliefs. Isreal has ever right to defend it self. They were and still are God's chosen people, they are his first loves.

As to the war in the middle East. It has been at war through the centuries. Other 's have invaded the middle east, even in the name of God. But if one may notice, the Jewish nation and it's people are still there and have been through the ages.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> PP, I agree with you. Yes I know we have been fighting since day one.
> But on this I will have my say, you are right in what you have said.
> 
> KFN you said there are wars and rumors of wars, and this is a sign and it does say so in the Bible.
> ...


Yarnie- I agree with everything you say here. :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Right on, Yarnie! Very reasonable post.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I also have a slightly different opinion of the media. They are a business but there are some excellent news people out there. They are not responsible for what is happening in my opinion although they might contribute. During World War II, very little truth was told to the people - certainly in Canada and the US. We were not aware of so many things that happened during the war until many years later. I don't think that is the solution either. I believe that citizens should know what is happening - we were not told so much and decisions were made that were very poor in my opinion, but were not publicized because they knew the citizens would not stand for certain things. That is also my own and only my opinion. The US and Canada were not told the truth about many things. The truth was not always told in the schools. Although more of the truth was told here than in the States in my opinion. The winning of the war was slanted and the contribution of other countries was just about ignored in the schools, newspapers and your history--
> 
> The truth has come out more and more with the internet and the passing of opinions of other people from other places around the world. I have learned so much from the internet - so i can't say it is a bad thing.
> 
> To me discussion like this helps us make decisions about how we want to contribute to what we believe are the right steps by letting our Politicians know in a loud voice.


During the war the press was very heavily censored and many things were just not reported in the newspapers, they just did not pass the censors. We had to rely on the official press release statements, which left out a lot of details.

The internet has lead to an increase in our knowledge but a lot of our increased knowledge is also to do with the release of documents that were previously locked away under the official censorship laws.

It is a lot harder to censor news broadcasts today. In WW1 and WW11 we relied on statements from war correspondents who had to submit their written statements to the official censor before they were able to be published or released. The official censor could, and did, block news items they did not want released. The same rules applied to radio broadcasts as they relied on the undersea cables and other means that could be blocked. Today, with the mobile phone, satellites and emails and other means of instant messaging this is not so easy. Some countries, China, North Korea, Burma, have closed down the internet or limited it to their own preferred channels, but this heavy censorship is not practised in the West. Today, with an iphone you can instantly text someone and attach a photo.

Amongst my late mother's personal belongings are letters she received from my father when he was away fighting in the Middle East - April 1940 to May 1943. These letters had been heavily censored and pieces cut out. Anything that could indicate where the troops were stationed was censored out, in fact great swathes of the letters were simply cut out. I do not think this would be possible today with troops having access to mobile phones, ipods and ipads. There would have to be a blanket black out on all mobile phones, which would also restrict the legitimate use of the mobile phone. This is seen in gaols when inmates gain access to a mobile phone illegally and send messages to their families, their fellow crime cronies or to drug dealers. The prisons state that if they placed a blackout on mobile phone usage in the gaol it would also apply to their official use of these devices.

I just updated my previous post as I was half way through when my son said he was turning off the modem. He does that in order to reset the modem and clear the xbox games data. Do not ask me for a better explanation as when he mentions the X box it goes in one ear and out the other, I choose not to take anything to do with the X box on board.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Another beheading. This time a Brit.
> 
> And Obama still thinks we are not at war and airstrikes are effective?
> 
> Wonder if he backs away from airstrikes to stop the beheadings? Don't believe he has the stomach or courage to do what needs to be done, and ISIS knows it.


I think there is a difference between 'at war' and 'waging a war'. To be 'at war' a statement declaring that 'a state of war has been declared between xx and yy' would have to be made, or 'we are now officially at war with xx'.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> During the war the press was very heavily censored and many things were just not reported in the newspapers, they just did not pass the censors. We had to rely on the official press release statements, which left out a lot of details.
> 
> The internet has lead to an increase in our knowledge but a lot of our increased knowledge is also to do with the release of documents that were previously locked away under the official censorship laws.
> 
> It is a lot harder to censor news broadcasts today. In WW1 and WW11 we relied on statements from war correspondents who had to submit their written statements to the official censor before they were able to be published or released. The official censor could, and did, block news items they did not want released. The same rules applied to radio broadcasts as they relied on the undersea cables and other means that could be blocked. Today, with the mobile phone, satellites and emails and other means of instant messaging this is not so easy. Some countries, China, North Korea, Burma, have closed down the internet or limited it to their own preferred channels, but this heavy censorship is not practised in the West. Today, with an iphone you can instantly text someone and attach a photo.


I like it better this way- although it makes things less straight forward and more confused, but at least many secrets are not secrets any more and the citizens of our countries are much more aware of what is really happening. We were so blindly led during World War II . A very few people made all the decisions. the people who were citizens had very few rights and were given very little information. The information in some cases wasn't given until many years later. Some info is still being released.

It is heading in that direction now with the Home Security policies in the States. I understand the reasons for it, but I have to admit I prefer to have a good idea where my country really stands on different subjects. It is understandable that a Government agency was appointed with extra powers to protect the US from another terrorist attack. I just hope it is not carried too far. Don't misunderstand me -- I think whatever they have done and are doing seems to be working.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> To thine own self be true Shakespeare Hamlet Act 1, scene 3, 7882.


Nebraska knew that, so my comment was pure snottiness.

Except that Polonius, who says it, is considered to be an old windbag, so I wonder whether Shakespeare meant it seriously.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I have to disagree with some of what you said. I am not as sure as you are about so many things. I think it would be nice to be so sure about what will happen and what should happen, that it can be stated as a fact. The older I get the more I realize how little one individual knows. Also how little influence one individual has in the total picture. The only way is for us to do the best we can, make sure we vote, publicize what we believe so our thoughts are known. I would never think to say - Soon, the people will be demanding war. I feel better saying there is a good possibility that the people will demand a war. I just am not as black and white in my opinions as you are. When I was younger I KNEW a lot more - now I know I don't KNOW nearly as much as I thought I did.
> 
> I also have a slightly different opinion of the media. They are a business but there are some excellent news people out there. They are not responsible for what is happening in my opinion although they might contribute. During World War II, very little truth was told to the people - certainly in Canada and the US. We were not aware of so many things that happened during the war until many years later. I don't think that is the solution either. I believe that citizens should know what is happening - we were not told so much and decisions were made that were very poor in my opinion, but were not publicized because they knew the citizens would not stand for certain things. That is also my own and only my opinion. The US and Canada were not told the truth about many things. The truth was not always told in the schools. Although more of the truth was told here than in the States in my opinion. The winning of the war was slanted and the contribution of other countries was just about ignored in the schools, newspapers and your history--
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> ==================
> 
> This is an honest question. What do YOU think he should do-- exactly and specifically. Not because it is him that is the President, but what should your country's reaction be? Do you think you should declare war and send your troops into battle on the ground? Do you think there is a better answer than his plan? I really wonder if you will answer truthfully, without twisting it to attack Obama- I have looked back and have not found a post that wasn't an attack on him on any of the threads. I don't remember reading any.
> 
> ...


Designer, are you expecting serious thought rather than knee-jerk Obamaphobia? I haven't seen any of that from these people until now. You might as well ask for the moon.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Yep, guess you and ISIS are of one mind in more than a few areas. Maybe you could earn a little pin money by accepting a position in said organization as strategic planner and adviser.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> No, I'm sorry to say that belief without doubt doesn't equal knowledge. It equals belief without doubt.


It's refreshing to hear that from a believer. Also like your mathematics.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I like it better this way- although it makes things less straight forward and more confused, but at least many secrets are not secrets any more and the citizens of our countries are much more aware of what is really happening. We were so blindly led during World War II . A very few people made all the decisions. the people who were citizens had very few rights and were given very little information. The information in some cases wasn't given until many years later. Some info is still being released.
> 
> It is heading in that direction now with the Home Security policies in the States. I understand the reasons for it, but I have to admit I prefer to have a good idea where my country really stands on different subjects. It is understandable that a Government agency was appointed with extra powers to protect the US from another terrorist attack. I just hope it is not carried too far. Don't misunderstand me -- I think whatever they have done and are doing seems to be working.


I remember the old statement about people applying for information under the freedom of information act and being given just the file cover, with a note stating that certain document had been exempted for various reasons.

Documents are not released under the FOI as they are considered to be exempt from this act. 
There are two types of exemptions: documents that are exempt, and documents that are conditionally exempt and will not be released if their disclosure would be contrary to the public interest. 
	documents affecting national security, defence or international relations
	Cabinet documents
	documents affecting enforcement of law and protection of public safety
	documents to which secrecy provisions in other legislation apply
	documents subject to legal professional privilege
	documents containing material obtained in confidence
	documents whose disclosure would be in contempt of Parliament or in contempt of court
	documents disclosing trade secrets or commercially valuable information
	Electoral rolls and related documents.
Another eight categories of document are conditionally exempt under the FOI Act. They are documents relating to:
	Commonwealth-State relations
	deliberative processes relating to agencies' or ministers' functions
	the Commonwealth's financial and property interests
	certain operations of agencies (such as audits, examinations and personnel management)
	personal privacy
	business affairs
	research (by CSIRO or the Australian National University)
	Australia's economy.

Then there were edited documents. A document was edited if
	If a decision maker determines that part but not all of a document contains exempt information, they may delete the exempt information to allow the rest of the document to be disclosed. Information that is irrelevant to the scope of the request may also be deleted.

they were still covered by the official secrets act
they may still be under official investigation
they may be held to be libelous by living people or the descendants of those named in the documents
they may compromise actions currently being undertaken by the department
they may be deemed to be aiding and abetting the enemy

In 2009, the Archives Act was amended to reduce closed period from 30 to 20 years, with cabinet notebooks reduced from 50 to 30 years. Census records remain closed for 99 years to protect the privacy of individuals.

So even today we are definitely not getting the whole picture.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> PP, I agree with you. Yes I know we have been fighting since day one.
> But on this I will have my say, you are right in what you have said.
> 
> KFN you said there are wars and rumors of wars, and this is a sign and it does say so in the Bible.
> ...


Thank you, Yarnie. You've given this some serious thought and I appreciate that you came to my aid. (Except that Jews are the chosen people. It seems all they've been chosen for was to be scapegoated.)


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You are more brave than I Gunga Din.



EveMCooke said:


> Our tiger snake is related to the rattle snake and is very aggressive and  venomous. I have had several encounters with them over the years, plus a few encounters with the Red Bellied Black and King Brown in Queensland. The snake is generally more afraid of you than you are of them, just give them notice that you are there. Walk loudly or talk loudly and they generally slither away. The tiger snake will stand its ground and keep coming though.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's a speech by Polonius, Ophelia's father, and he is a buffoon not a wise man.



EveMCooke said:


> To thine own self be true Shakespeare Hamlet Act 1, scene 3, 7882.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I would prefer to call 'snake busters' which I did, but no one available. For my sanity, I require a safe place at home.



EveMCooke said:


> Snakes are a protected species in Australia, meaning you can be fined if you kill one unnecessarily. If there is one snake there is bound to be more, so killing one snake would not solve the problem. We can call the snake busters, but I do not bother. If I see a snake in the garden I just avoid it and it avoids me. They do not faze me, they did not faze me as a child, they were just part of the environment where we lived. They do not hunt humans like the large cats or the polar bear hunt humans.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> I believe he expanded air strikes. This situation will never be solved by mindless, knee-jerk escalation of the fighting. Or by the US alone.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for the wisdom, Shirley.



Designer1234 said:


> I have to disagree with some of what you said. I am not as sure as you are about so many things. I think it would be nice to be so sure about what will happen and what should happen, that it can be stated as a fact. The older I get the more I realize how little one individual knows. Also how little influence one individual has in the total picture. The only way is for us to do the best we can, make sure we vote, publicize what we believe so our thoughts are known. I would never think to say - Soon, the people will be demanding war. I feel better saying there is a good possibility that the people will demand a war. I just am not as black and white in my opinions as you are. When I was younger I KNEW a lot more - now I know I don't KNOW nearly as much as I thought I did.
> 
> I also have a slightly different opinion of the media. They are a business but there are some excellent news people out there. They are not responsible for what is happening in my opinion although they might contribute. During World War II, very little truth was told to the people - certainly in Canada and the US. We were not aware of so many things that happened during the war until many years later. I don't think that is the solution either. I believe that citizens should know what is happening - we were not told so much and decisions were made that were very poor in my opinion, but were not publicized because they knew the citizens would not stand for certain things. That is also my own and only my opinion. The US and Canada were not told the truth about many things. The truth was not always told in the schools. Although more of the truth was told here than in the States in my opinion. The winning of the war was slanted and the contribution of other countries was just about ignored in the schools, newspapers and your history--
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'd still be screaming and running.



susanmos2000 said:


> Whew--glad I don't live in Australia as I'm scared to death of snakes. Years ago I was loading my infant son into the car and heard a funny noise. Looked all around for the source, finally glanced down and found a rattler coiled at my feet, poised to strike. Yow!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> I don't see any other country charging in. The situation globally is very complex and I rather Obama think things thru, talk with advisors and then move. Once in, it is hard to get out. He needs brains rather than stomachs.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put.



MaidInBedlam said:


> No, I'm sorry to say that belief without doubt doesn't equal knowledge. It equals belief without doubt.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't mean to be disrespectful. I just think it is wise to consider our beliefs.

What if God does not exist? Wonder if the concept were invented to explain mysteries beyond man's present understanding? What if the ancient writings in the Bible were passed down through the ages for the same reason? Or a million other ideas we don't understand?

Your faith is your own. It is not universal.



theyarnlady said:


> PP, I agree with you. Yes I know we have been fighting since day one.
> But on this I will have my say, you are right in what you have said.
> 
> KFN you said there are wars and rumors of wars, and this is a sign and it does say so in the Bible.
> ...


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'd still be screaming and running.


Even 12 years later it still makes my blood run cold. In those days we lived in a private home more than twenty miles outside the city limits. Our living quarters were over the garage--I didn't have a cell then--to reach the phone I would have to maneuver up a flight up stairs with a snake-bitten leg and a three-month old infant in my arms. Brrr--that was the day we decided to move back to town.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Designer, are you expecting serious thought rather than knee-jerk Obamaphobia? I haven't seen any of that from these people until now. You might as well ask for the moon.


I still hope -- if the answers are not there, we know that it is all about Obama - not the problems faced by your country and mine. I hope that you are mistaken and we will receive an answer. I think there is a possibility- that is what I am hoping for.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I remember the old statement about people applying for information under the freedom of information act and being given just the file cover, with a note stating that certain document had been exempted for various reasons.
> 
> Documents are not released under the FOI as they are considered to be exempt from this act.
> There are two types of exemptions: documents that are exempt, and documents that are conditionally exempt and will not be released if their disclosure would be contrary to the public interest.
> ...


That to me is a real problem. I believe that the more we know the better we can deal with what we know. I am speaking for Canada -- I have no right to speak for the States. However, I have never found secrets to be productive. I think if you speak honestly about what you feel is happening and you KNOW what is happening you can do a better job dealing with it.

I know I often say too much and have been put in my place for it. I am afraid I let my opinions all hang out. Possibly too much but it is too late to change who I am at this stage now that I am am 
"Elder Stateswoman" which I find to be appealing, not an 
insult. My age is what it is. I do well for my age and I don't regret much that I have done or felt or spoken in my life. I have found out that I am still learning, and I am still interested so that is good.

Secrets in my opinion are not productive. Some are necessary but often there are many more secrets than there should be and a lot of trouble comes from them.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks for sharing this. I will only add that regardless of whether we try to impose our beliefs, values and culture on them, it is their intent to do the same to us. Are you familiar with the term "caliphate"? It makes for interesting reading.


Here's a link to the article I read to get the meaning of "caliphate" that included what ISIS is trying to do.http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119259/isis-history-islamic-states-new-caliphate-syria-and-iraq


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Here's a link to the article I read to get the meaning of "caliphate" that included what ISIS is trying to do.http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119259/isis-history-islamic-states-new-caliphate-syria-and-iraq


Thank you for that very informative link.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

SQM said:


> I don't see any other country charging in. The situation globally is very complex and I rather Obama think things thru, talk with advisors and then move. Once in, it is hard to get out. He needs brains rather than stomachs.


I think the only way to defeat ISIS is with boots on the ground and discard most of the rules of engagement. The airstrikes will help, no doubt, but actual soldiers hunting down and killing ISIS members is what will be needed. Airstrikes are controlled to hit certain targets. What happens when ISIS follows Hamas' lead and hides behind the innocent? This tactic is bound to happen soon. Airstrikes will be no good then. Unfortunately, the only way to eliminate ISIS is by fighting the war on their level. The US needs the help and support of the ME countries.

I hope the administration gets on the same page soon. The WH says one thing, Kerry another and the military advisors something else. They need to talk to each other and give their interviews and press conferences a rest until they are in agreement.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Whew--glad I don't live in Australia as I'm scared to death of snakes. Years ago I was loading my infant son into the car and heard a funny noise. Looked all around for the source, finally glanced down and found a rattler coiled at my feet, poised to strike. Yow!


I bet you moved faster than the speed of light!! I'm rather fond of snakes, other than the poisonous ones. My high school biology teacher had several in his classroom. In the morning they needed to be warmed up. A few students who had his class first thing in the day would get to his room around 7am or so (class started at 8am) and hang a snake around his/her neck and hang out with the teacher who was a very cool guy and hanging out with him before school was considered ultra-cool. One morning I forgot about the snake I was warming. Of course, we had a test first thing. As I was working on the test "my" snake decided to slip through a space between a couple of buttons on my blouse and wrap itself around my waist. This tickled and distracted me so I asked if I could go in the storeroom and remove it. The whole class nearly died laughing and I thought it was pretty funny myself. After all, how many high school biology students have to ask to go somewhere private to remove a snake that's under their clothes?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> I don't mean to be disrespectful. I just think it is wise to consider our beliefs.
> 
> What if God does not exist? Wonder if the concept were invented to explain mysteries beyond man's present understanding? What if the ancient writings in the Bible were passed down through the ages for the same reason? Or a million other ideas we don't understand?
> 
> Your faith is your own. It is not universal.


You have written The Sloth Creed.

I am also a big snake lover. In Central Park a man had a boa and he let me wear it. Tons of tourists took my picture. They are wonderful animals, much maligned.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> What if He does? When you do find out, it will be to late.


So God can be petty if someone does not believe? How ungodly.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> What if He does? When you do find out, it will be to late.


You might want to look up Pascal's Wager. Intellectually dishonest.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> What if He does? When you do find out, it will be to late.


I've never found that to be a convincing reason: pay lip service to God in case He exists. If He does, He knows how genuine one's belief is (not at all).

And if He's more interested in good works rather than belief? (I know that you do good works, but many of your co-religionists claim that belief is all that's necessary.) Won't it be too late for them?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> You might want to look up Pascal's Wager. Intellectually dishonest.


I couldn't remember which French hypocrite made that wager, but it certainly was intellectually dishonest.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> So God can be petty if someone does not believe? How ungodly.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> The only way is for Obama to let the military control any and all operations. Iraq asked for drones a few months back, why didn't Obama give them to Iraq?


because the regime is corrupt and no good. That is the irony of what is happening. The Arab Spring installed rats and now we are fighting to protect the rats from venomous snakes.

I am sorry I am using animal analogies. These animals are way better than the humans I am describing.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> The only way is for Obama to let the military control any and all operations. Iraq asked for drones a few months back, why didn't Obama give them to Iraq?


The President is Commander in Chief for a reason. The founding fathers recognized the dangers of giving the military carte blanche.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I bet you moved faster than the speed of light!! I'm rather fond of snakes, other than the poisonous ones. My high school biology teacher had several in his classroom. In the morning they needed to be warmed up. A few student who had his class first thing in the day would get to his room around 7am or so (class started at 8am) and hang a snake around his/her neck and hang out with the teacher who was a very cool guy and hanging out with him before school was considered ultra-cool. One morning I forgot about the snake I was warming. Of course, we had a test first thing. As I was working on the test "my" snake decided to slip through a space between a couple of buttons on my blouse and wrap itself around my waist. This tickled and distracted me so I asked if I could go in the storeroom and remove it. The whole class nearly died laughing and I thought it was pretty funny myself. After all, how many high school biology students have to ask to go somewhere private to remove a snake that's under their clothes?


Great story.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> I don't see any other country charging in. The situation globally is very complex and I rather Obama think things thru, talk with advisors and then move. Once in, it is hard to get out. He needs brains rather than stomachs.


Mr Rabbitt has committed Oz troops. Australia joins the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Jordan, France, the UAE and other countries in the battle to bring down terror-driven Islamic State.


> BRIEFING
> AUSTRALIA COMMITS 600 MILITARY PERSONNEL IN FIGHT AGAINST ISIS
> PETER TERLATO YESTERDAY AT 1:12 PM BOOKMARK 70
> 
> ...


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Seems like the start of a world war since many continents are involved. Why is the US waffling about that word 'war'?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> PP, I agree with you. Yes I know we have been fighting since day one.
> But on this I will have my say, you are right in what you have said.
> 
> KFN you said there are wars and rumors of wars, and this is a sign and it does say so in the Bible.
> ...


It WOULD have been nice if you'd bothered to read the comment in question! I was talking to Tamarque, and said that she and I believed the same on many things, except that I knew how the story ended! I was referring to my faith in the Bible!!! "I know how the story ends.". It was not making any predictions or setting any dates! It was a statement of faith! Period! When SQM accused me of making predictions, I declared that I was not! I pointed out that it was the Bible, that makes predictions and gave some examples that had come true. Everything was getting twisted based upon my use of the word, "know". We finally agreed to just let it go. So please do not put words in my mouth! I made no predictions! I set no dates! And I am fully aware of what the Bible says about setting dates!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Nebraska knew that, so my comment was pure snottiness.
> 
> Except that Polonius, who says it, is considered to be an old windbag, so I wonder whether Shakespeare meant it seriously.


Thanks, Purl!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> I think the only way to defeat ISIS is with boots on the ground and discard most of the rules of engagement. The airstrikes will help, no doubt, but actual soldiers hunting down and killing ISIS members is what will be needed. Airstrikes are controlled to hit certain targets. What happens when ISIS follows Hamas' lead and hides behind the innocent? This tactic is bound to happen soon. Airstrikes will be no good then. Unfortunately, the only way to eliminate ISIS is by fighting the war on their level. The US needs the help and support of the ME countries.
> 
> I hope the administration gets on the same page soon. The WH says one thing, Kerry another and the military advisors something else. They need to talk to each other and give their interviews and press conferences a rest until they are in agreement.


Am I correct that you mean US and Canadian, Australian etc etc. troops should start a ground war? Or do you mean we should support a war that is fought by countries from the middle east. If it is the first it is scary, I hope if that is what you mean, that some other method can be made to work. Don't you agree that other methods like the plan explained by the President , is worth a try before sending our young men into another war in the middle east? It is a difficult decision in every way.

You might well be right. We are both likely surprised that there might be the possibility of an agreement between us. I do hope however that other things are tried before sending troops to fight on the ground. I am not convinced however that it will work. I do believe it is worth a try however.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> I think the only way to defeat ISIS is with boots on the ground and discard most of the rules of engagement. The US needs the help and support of the ME countries.quote]
> 
> "The US needs the help and support of the ME countries."
> 
> ...


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> ==================
> 
> This is an honest question. What do YOU think he should do-- exactly and specifically. Not because it is him that is the President, but what should your country's reaction be? Do you think you should declare war and send your troops into battle on the ground? Do you think there is a better answer than his plan? I really wonder if you will answer truthfully, without twisting it to attack Obama- I have looked back and have not found a post that wasn't an attack on him on any of the threads. I don't remember reading any.
> 
> ...


What is Canada doing? NOTHING !!!!!!! And personally I could care less what you want. Feelings are not facts.

If it were up to me, I would turn the desert where they are into glass by bombing it day and night over and over again until they have nothing left. AND, I would not care about 'their feelings'.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> soloweygirl said:
> 
> 
> > I think the only way to defeat ISIS is with boots on the ground and discard most of the rules of engagement. The US needs the help and support of the ME countries.quote]
> ...


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It WOULD have been nice if you'd bothered to read the comment in question! I was talking to Tamarque, and said that she and I believed the same on many things, except that I knew how the story ended! I was referring to my faith in the Bible!!! "I know how the story ends.". It was not making any predictions or setting any dates! It was a statement of faith! Period! When SQM accused me of making predictions, I declared that I was not! I pointed out that it was the Bible, that makes predictions and gave some examples that had come true. Everything was getting twisted based upon my use of the word, "know". We finally agreed to just let it go. So please do not put words in my mouth! I made no predictions! I set no dates! And I am fully aware of what the Bible says about setting dates!


I am sorry I did not read your post I read SQM and PP post. But will still sstand by my words. You may not have meant it that way but you did cause comfussion with what others read.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> What is Canada doing? NOTHING !!!!!!! And personally I could care less what you want. Feelings are not facts.
> 
> If it were up to me, I would turn the desert where they are into glass by bombing it day and night over and over again until they have nothing left. AND, I would not care about 'their feelings'.


So instead of you answering the question asked of you in a considered way (bearing in mind you think Obama's approach in tackling ISIS is terribly flawed thereby implying you know a better approach and your comments to that are unconsidered and uninformed), you go into attack mode and spew your vitriol as usual. What that says about you is that you are all wind and no substance.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> So instead of you answering the question asked of you in a considered way (bearing in mind you think Obama's approach in tackling ISIS is terribly flawed thereby implying you know a better approach and your comments to that are unconsidered and uninformed), you go into attack mode and spew your vitriol as usual. What that says about you is that you are all wind and no substance.


My guess is that there's plenty of spray with all that wind (from the lake, of course).


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> What is Canada doing? NOTHING !!!!!!! And personally I could care less what you want. Feelings are not facts.
> 
> If it were up to me, I would turn the desert where they are into glass by bombing it day and night over and over again until they have nothing left. AND, I would not care about 'their feelings'.


I think you may have missed the news that was broadcast 2 days ago.

Canada signs up for Washingtons new Mideast war
By Keith Jones 
13 September 2014
With the full support of the countrys ruling business elite, Canada has joined the new coalition of the willing that US imperialism has organized to wage war in Iraq, Syria and beyond.

As it is Monday 15th September, time 7.15 am, you will see that this was posted two days ago on the 13th September. So your statement "What is Canada doing? NOTHING !!!!!!!" is incorrect. You owe the Canadians an apology here.

As for your statement "If it were up to me, I would turn the desert where they are into glass by bombing it day and night over and over again until they have nothing left. AND, I would not care about 'their feelings'", all I can say is, such a Christian attitude you display here. What do you think this will achieve? It will only make them hate the allies even more. A true Christian would not display such hatred towards others, even if those others have committed atrocities. As a Christian you are a follower of Christ, and what did he say? Love your enemies. " But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." - Matthew 5:44.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> What is Canada doing? NOTHING !!!!!!! And personally I could care less what you want. Feelings are not facts.
> 
> If it were up to me, I would turn the desert where they are into glass by bombing it day and night over and over again until they have nothing left. AND, I would not care about 'their feelings'.


--------------------------------------------
I thank you for your honest answer as to what you would do. I am not surprised at all, but at least you answered.

I am just thankful it isn't up to you because I certainly believe you would do exactly what you say. No feeling at all for the women and children who would die. It might happen but I think that your Government has no wish to kill people who are not responsible for ISIS unless it is the very last resort. It is a difficult situation and I hope the powers that be use their heads before putting the world at war.

As far as me being a Canadian is concerned say what you will, --and you have absolutely no idea of what Canada will do

I am just thankful that you are living somewhere else besides Canada. I am sure you are just as glad that I am not an American. I certainly would not be your kind of American so you can be happy about that.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> I am sorry I did not read your post I read SQM and PP post. But will still sstand by my words. You may not have meant it that way but you did cause comfussion with what others read.


I always like to thank my readership. Thanks.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> --------------------------------------------
> I thank you for your honest answer as to what you would do. I am not surprised at all, but at least you answered.
> 
> I am just thankful it isn't up to you because I certainly believe you would do exactly what you say. No feeling at all for the women and children who would die. It might happen but I think that your Government has no wish to kill people who are not responsible for ISIS unless it is the very last resort. It is a difficult situation and I hope the powers that be use their heads before putting the world at war.
> ...


But...but...America needs more people like you!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Thankyou -- I am really happy to visit but I love where I live and I love Canada - Much in common but some differences. I enjoy these conversations. I have made many friends here, and some not so much. But then I don't care for some of them either. Others I rather like.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

damemary said:


> I don't mean to be disrespectful. I just think it is wise to consider our beliefs.
> 
> What if God does not exist? Wonder if the concept were invented to explain mysteries beyond man's present understanding? What if the ancient writings in the Bible were passed down through the ages for the same reason? Or a million other ideas we don't understand?
> 
> Your faith is your own. It is not universal.


If you don't believe in God how are you offended? After all you believe in nothing.Why would it be wise to consider there is no God? I guess you listened to too much John Lennon during your formitive years. :roll: Your loss.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> If you don't believe in God how are you offended? After all you believe in nothing.Why would it be wise to consider there is no God? I guess you listened to too much John Lennon during your formitive years. :roll: Your loss.


Then you can't see that it's offensive to say "If you don't believe in God, you believe in nothing"? If not offensive, then disrespectful. There are many things to believe in without God: mathematics, morality, love, equality, poetry, invention, science, the continuity of life, the beauty of hummingbirds, music .... I could go on, but I'd only be talking to myself, wouldn't I?

I think there's one thing you didn't get enough of in your formative years: learning how to show respect, even to people who don't believe what you do.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I think you may have missed the news that was broadcast 2 days ago.
> 
> Canada signs up for Washingtons new Mideast war
> By Keith Jones
> ...


------------------------
There isn't a chance that she will ever change. Her nastiness is written in stone. I understand that Canada was one of the first to join the Americans- We are your neighbors - we cover each other's backs in many cases, although I am thankful we were courageous enough to refuse to go to Iraq or Vietnam.

Many Americans agreed with us.

Not to worry Eve. Her insults are to be expected - That is how she sees the world. She has her little group, many who believe as she does. The Rest of the world can go to H---l in a basket and she would smile. I just realize who they are and pay no attention.Their opinion means nothing - and I am sure all my countrymen would agree - just look who it comes from and forget it.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> My guess is that there's plenty of spray with all that wind (from the lake, of course).


 :XD: That is truly funny - laughing out loud here!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Then you can't see that it's offensive to say "If you don't believe in God, you believe in nothing"? If not offensive, then disrespectful. There are many things to believe in without God: mathematics, morality, love, equality, poetry, invention, science, the continuity of life, the beauty of hummingbirds, music .... I could go on, but I'd only be talking to myself, wouldn't I?
> 
> I think there's one thing you didn't get enough of in your formative years: learning how to show respect, even to people who don't believe what you do.


What the Heck has John Lennon got to do with anything??????

Do you show respect for those who don't agree with you CB?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I think you may have missed the news that was broadcast 2 days ago.
> 
> Canada signs up for Washingtons new Mideast war
> By Keith Jones
> ...


LTL is a 'when it suits me Christian.' So typical of so many. It's hard to get a handle on someone who behaves in this way and then articulate in one's own mind about what is going on in theirs. These people have no insight about their behaviour, they seem to hit the ground running when they perceive a slight against them. I wonder if it is simply a case of envy; the realization that their own behaviour is genuinely undesirable. But that's doubtful because if that was really the case, they would alter the behaviour.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Then you can't see that it's offensive to say "If you don't believe in God, you believe in nothing"? If not offensive, then disrespectful. There are many things to believe in without God: mathematics, morality, love, equality, poetry, invention, science, the continuity of life, the beauty of hummingbirds, music .... I could go on, but I'd only be talking to myself, wouldn't I?
> 
> I think there's one thing you didn't get enough of in your formative years: learning how to show respect, even to people who don't believe what you do.


Yes.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> What the Heck has John Lennon got to do with anything??????
> 
> Do you show respect for those who don't agree with you CB?


Do you?


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Do you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Thank you for posting that link. That is one of the most beautiful songs ever written. The closing words are so true
> 
> I hope that some day you can join us and the world can live as one.
> 
> Thank you again, as I have always loved that song. The words are so true.


Yes, Imagine that!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> LTL is a 'when it suits me Christian.' So typical of so many. It's hard to get a handle on someone who behaves in this way and then articulate what is going on in their heads. These people have no insight about their behavior, they seem to hit the ground running when they perceive a slight against them. I wonder if it is simply a case of envy; the realization that their own behavior is genuinely undesirable. But that's doubtful because if that was really the case, they would alter the behaviour.


I think we should arm LTL with a machine gun, dress her in black, load her up in a Volkswagon, and send her over to wipe out ISIL-ISIS. She seems to think she knows more about handling terrorists much better than the Commander-in Chief and his Joint Chiefs (from every branch of the military) who advise Obama on a daily basis. Don't give her a plane with bombs, though. She would hit all the civilians and turn their homeland into glass. Thousands of human lives lost to avenge 3.
How would she be able to establish just who ISIS members are, you ask?
Good question. If the military knew, they would have been eradicated by now. Let's not forget the specially trianed operatives that are putting their lives on the line to kill these bastards.
If you were to ask her, I'll bet it wouldn't be a rational answer, as most of her posts are just verbal flatulence.
But don't tell LTL that. She thinks she knows more than POTUS and his Joint Chiefs.
Imagine that!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Here's a link to the article I read to get the meaning of "caliphate" that included what ISIS is trying to do.http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119259/isis-history-islamic-states-new-caliphate-syria-and-iraq


Thanks, Maid! A lot of interesting information. I'd read about the possibility of a global caliphate but this had good details.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I think we should arm LTL with a machine gun, dress her in black and send her over to wipe out ISIL-ISIS. She seems to think she knows more about handling terrorists much better than the Commander-in Chief and his Joint Chiefs from every branch of the military who advise Obama on a daily basis. Don't give her a plane with bombs, though. She would hit all the civilian targets and turn their homeland into glass.
> How would she be able to establish just who ISIS members are, you ask?
> Good question. If the military knew, they would have been eradicated by now.
> If you were to ask her, I'll bet it wouldn't be a rational statement, as most of her posts are just verbal flatulence.
> But don't tell LTL that. She thinks she knows more than POTUS.


What I don't get is the lack of the 'embarrassment factor' with LTL and others like her when they make ridiculous statements like her last. And I don't care that this is an anonymous cyber site. Perhaps her behaviour can be reasonably classified as troll-like?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I bet you moved faster than the speed of light!! I'm rather fond of snakes, other than the poisonous ones. My high school biology teacher had several in his classroom. In the morning they needed to be warmed up. A few students who had his class first thing in the day would get to his room around 7am or so (class started at 8am) and hang a snake around his/her neck and hang out with the teacher who was a very cool guy and hanging out with him before school was considered ultra-cool. One morning I forgot about the snake I was warming. Of course, we had a test first thing. As I was working on the test "my" snake decided to slip through a space between a couple of buttons on my blouse and wrap itself around my waist. This tickled and distracted me so I asked if I could go in the storeroom and remove it. The whole class nearly died laughing and I thought it was pretty funny myself. After all, how many high school biology students have to ask to go somewhere private to remove a snake that's under their clothes?


Eeeeewwww!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> because the regime is corrupt and no good. That is the irony of what is happening. The Arab Spring installed rats and now we are fighting to protect the rats from venomous snakes.
> 
> I am sorry I am using animal analogies. These animals are way better than the humans I am describing.


Animal analogy or not, you are correct!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> What I don't get is the lack of the 'embarrassment factor' with LTL and others like her when they make ridiculous statements like her last. And I don't care that this is an anonymous cyber site. Perhaps her behaviour can be reasonably classified as troll-like?


My main guess is that it is all done to rile people up. Some people are too dim to know what embarassment is. 
As long as President Obama is in office, she'll whine up a storm daily.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> What I don't get is the lack of the 'embarrassment factor' with LTL and others like her when they make ridiculous statements like her last. And I don't care that this is an anonymous cyber site. Perhaps her behaviour can be reasonably classified as troll-like?


It may be an anonymous cyber site, but remember what David Irvine, who just retired from ASIO, said. He said that chatter on chat sites on the web were being monitored. So perhaps someone in authority may actually be reading what is posted here, and they do have ways and means of discovering who is posting those comments.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> soloweygirl said:
> 
> 
> > I think the only way to defeat ISIS is with boots on the ground and discard most of the rules of engagement. The US needs the help and support of the ME countries.quote]
> ...


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> It may be an anonymous cyber site, but remember what David Irvine, who just retired from ASIO, said. He said that chatter on chat sites on the web were being monitored. So perhaps someone in authority may actually be reading what is posted here, and they do have ways and means of discovering who is posting those comments.


That is a good point. I have heard that action can be taken against people who are perceived to be inciting others. You've got to be so careful on-line because it is more fallible than Australian Post in my opinion!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> What is Canada doing? NOTHING !!!!!!! And personally I could care less what you want. Feelings are not facts.
> 
> If it were up to me, I would turn the desert where they are into glass by bombing it day and night over and over again until they have nothing left. AND, I would not care about 'their feelings'.


Do you not care about the innocent women and children? Does your hatred go that far? That's exactly how ISIS feels about us! Are your children and grandchildren responsible for the worst of us?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> I am sorry I did not read your post I read SQM and PP post. But will still sstand by my words. You may not have meant it that way but you did cause comfussion with what others read.


And I think it's irresponsible to accuse someone of saying something when you didn't even bother to read it! Perhaps, the "comfussion" is yours!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I think you may have missed the news that was broadcast 2 days ago.
> 
> Canada signs up for Washingtons new Mideast war
> By Keith Jones
> ...


Thanks, Eve. This from those who say they are Christians, but do not follow CHRIST or HIS words!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I always like to thank my readership. Thanks.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> But...but...America needs more people like you!


 :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I think we should arm LTL with a machine gun, dress her in black, load her up in a Volkswagon, and send her over to wipe out ISIL-ISIS. She seems to think she knows more about handling terrorists much better than the Commander-in Chief and his Joint Chiefs (from every branch of the military) who advise Obama on a daily basis. Don't give her a plane with bombs, though. She would hit all the civilians and turn their homeland into glass. Thousands of human lives lost to avenge 3.
> How would she be able to establish just who ISIS members are, you ask?
> Good question. If the military knew, they would have been eradicated by now. Let's not forget the specially trianed operatives that are putting their lives on the line to kill these bastards.
> If you were to ask her, I'll bet it wouldn't be a rational answer, as most of her posts are just verbal flatulence.
> ...


 :shock: "verbal flatulence"?!? Ahahahahahahahaha! :lol:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> What the Heck has John Lennon got to do with anything??????
> 
> Do you show respect for those who don't agree with you CB?


"Imagine"

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...






John Lennon has a lot to do with most things. :roll:
***********************************************
Nertz! CB beat me to it!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I think we should arm LTL with a machine gun, dress her in black, load her up in a Volkswagon, and send her over to wipe out ISIL-ISIS. She seems to think she knows more about handling terrorists much better than the Commander-in Chief and his Joint Chiefs (from every branch of the military) who advise Obama on a daily basis. Don't give her a plane with bombs, though. She would hit all the civilians and turn their homeland into glass. Thousands of human lives lost to avenge 3.
> How would she be able to establish just who ISIS members are, you ask?
> Good question. If the military knew, they would have been eradicated by now. Let's not forget the specially trianed operatives that are putting their lives on the line to kill these bastards.
> If you were to ask her, I'll bet it wouldn't be a rational answer, as most of her posts are just verbal flatulence.
> ...


This would be perfect except for one change: don't dress her in black.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Here's a video of a sermon given by a Muslim cleric in Gaza. He holds up his machine gun and refers to it as the way to create an Islamic state and to establish a caliphate. 
http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4489.htm


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> It may be an anonymous cyber site, but remember what David Irvine, who just retired from ASIO, said. He said that chatter on chat sites on the web were being monitored. So perhaps someone in authority may actually be reading what is posted here, and they do have ways and means of discovering who is posting those comments.


And they would be yawning to high heaven.

Poo-Poo.

That is to add something naughty to the chatter.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I posted a link to this article the other day. I thought it would generate discussion but I don't think anybody bothered to read it. The coalition of countries to fight ISIS is not what you think. Here's the article.

Were going to build the kind of coalition that allows us to lead, but also isnt entirely dependent on what we do, said US President Barack Obama at a fundraiser at the home of former AIPAC head Howard Friedman in Baltimore Friday, Sept. 12. One wag translated this as meaning that the Middle East could go its own way so long as it retained a US flavor.
That was one way of defining the turbulent cross-currents set off in the Middle East by the US presidents launch last Wednesday of his strategy for defeating the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant with a broad coalition.
That was also exactly the kind of ambiguous comment, which the governments America is wooing to join the coalition, find so off-putting. The response of 10 Arab and Muslim leaders to Secretary of State John Kerrys recruitment bid in Jeddah last Thursday, Sept.11, was therefore just as equivocal.
The participating states agreed to do their share in the comprehensive fight against ISIL, including as appropriate joining in the many aspects of a coordinated military campaign against ISIL, they said.
Obama spoke of a silver lining in describing how Arab neighbors were focused for the first time on the need to completely distance from and effectively snuff out this particular brand of Islamic extremism. But the lining is not all that bright.
Iraq has no army left to speak of after ISIS's rampage, and its small air force can hardly make a difference in the battle against the Islamists territorial sweep.
Turkey has opted out  and not just out of military operations against jihadists. Ankara has closed its territory and air bases to the transit of US and coalition forces for striking the Islamists in northern Iraq.
Jordan has renounced any part in the military operations against the Islamic State - and so has Egypt, as Kerry learned before he landed in Cairo Saturday, Sept. 13.
Germany, while sending arms to the Kurdish army fighting in the front line against the Islamists, refuses to take part in combat action in Iraq or Syria.
Britain, which sent a shipment of heavy machine guns and half a ton of ammunition to Irbil for the Kurdish Peshmerga, refuses to join the US in air strikes over IS targets in Syria.
French President Francois Hollande, who flew to Baghdad Friday with four arms shipments and 60 metric tons of humanitarian equipment, will host the founding of the coalition in Paris next Monday, Sept. 15  in competition to the American initiative. He has crossed Washington by inviting Iran.
Kerry said publicly that it would be inappropriate for Iranian officials to be invited to the Paris conference, since Iran is a state sponsor of terror and backs Syrias brutal regime.
Friday, Obama appointed Gen. John R. Allen, former commander in Afghanistan and western Iraq, to lead the coalition forces in the war on the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levan.
It is hard to see what combat forces he will lead, in view of the mixed international responses so far to Washingtons appeals for a global coalition to combat terror.
In the years 2006-2008, Gen. Allen commanded the US II Marine Expeditionary Force, which successfully fought Al Qaeda under Musab Zarqawis leadership in western Iraqs Anbar province. He led what was then dubbed the Awakening project, which rallied the regions Sunni tribes to the fight.
President Obama appears to be hinging his campaign against the new Islamist scourge on Gen. Allen repeating that success.
DEBKAfiles military experts find the prospects of this happening in 2014 fairly slim, because the circumstances are so different:
1. To support the Sunni Awakening venture, President George W. Bush authorized the famous surge which placed an additional 70,000 US troops on the Iraqi battlefield. However, Obama has vowed not to send US combat troops back to Iraq in significant numbers, and has approved no more than a few hundred American military personnel.
2. In 2006, Iraqi Sunnis trusted American pledges. They agreed to turn around and fight fellow Sunni Al Qaeda after being assured by Washington that they would not lose their status and rights in Baghdad, and that the US would give them weapons and salaries.
In 2009, they realized that the Obama administration would not stand by the Bush administration's assurances. Their disillusion with America and the rise of a Shiite-dominated regime in Baghdad pushed them into the arms of ISIS.
3. Since then Iraqs Sunni leaders have learned not to trust anyone.
Today, they are hedging their bets, their tribal leaders split into two opposing camps between Saudi Arabia, on the one hand, and the Islamic State, on the other. For the first time since the US invasion of Iraq to topple Saddam Hussein 11 years ago, Iraqs Sunni leaders feel they are in the saddle and in a position to set a high price for their support.
All this leaves President Obama and Gen. Allen on the threshold of a war on Islamist terrorists, which everyone agrees needs to fought without delay, but without enough political leverage for going forward or much chance of mustering the right troops to lead  even into the first battle.
http://www.debka.com/article/24271/US-Gen-John-Allen-named-to-lead-coalition-war-on-ISIS-but-allies-deterred-by-Obama%E2%80%99s-ambiguities


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Nebs - it seems like info regarding the coalition changes daily so is this info still current?


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Hit "send" too soon...


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It WOULD have been nice if you'd bothered to read the comment in question! I was talking to Tamarque, and said that she and I believed the same on many things, except that I knew how the story ended! I was referring to my faith in the Bible!!! "I know how the story ends.". It was not making any predictions or setting any dates! It was a statement of faith! Period! When SQM accused me of making predictions, I declared that I was not! I pointed out that it was the Bible, that makes predictions and gave some examples that had come true. Everything was getting twisted based upon my use of the word, "know". We finally agreed !o just let it go. So please do not put words in my mouth! I made no predictions! I set no dates! And I am fully aware of what the Bible says about setting dates!


Good grief, everyone!!! This is like that silly tempest in a tea pot that resulted because someone (I can't remember who, sorry) asked "How do you get to hell?", asking for a road map to hell, and someone answered "You have to die." which happens to be the CORRECT answer if you believe what the Bible says. For some unfathomable reason, this was taken as a death threat and resulted a waste of time while several people got their knickers in a twist.

As we should all know by now KFN is a Christian and believes what the Bible says is the "end of the story". Reading for MEANING is a wonderful and interesting thing to do, so start doing that NOW.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I posted a link to this article the other day. I thought it would generate discussion but I don't think anybody bothered to read it. The coalition of countries to fight ISIS is not what you think.


I did read the article but I'm not convinced that it's entirely accurate. My understanding is that there is no plan at the moment to deploy 'combat troops.' The U.S. has committed 450 support personnel and Australia has committed 600 support personnel from their respective militaries so far. I have not seen any reports about Turkey closing it's boarders/airports to the U.S. for purposes of on-going air strikes in Iraq.

As for the rest, I'll have to wait until the 17th when my monthly internet usage renews itself. At the moment it's very slow due to my reaching my monthly quota of gigs so it's impossible to research the net. Doesn't seem to effect KP however.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Duplicate post.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Good grief, everyone!!! This is like that silly tempest in a tea pot because someone (I can't remember who, sorry)asked "How do you get to hell?", asking for a road map to hell, and someone answered "You have to die.) which happens to be the correct answer. This was taken as some kind of death threat


Nope! Had nothing to do with that.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I did read the article but I'm not convinced that it's entirely accurate. My understanding is that there is no plan at the moment to deploy 'combat troops.' The U.S. has committed 450 support personnel and Australia has committed 600 support personnel from their respective militaries so far. I have not seen any reports about Turkey closing it's boarders/airports to the U.S. for purposes of on-going air strikes in Iraq.
> 
> As for the rest, I'll have to wait until the 17th when my monthly internet usage renews itself. At the moment it's very slow due to my reaching my monthly quota of gigs so it's impossible to research the net. Doesn't seem to effect KP however.


I thought it was interesting that the majority of the Arab countries weren't going to be participating. If this isn't true, I wasn't aware of it. Thanks.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I thought it was interesting that the majority of the Arab countries weren't going to be participating. If this isn't true, I wasn't aware of it. Thanks.


Not sure about that one but it would be interesting if any of them do participate. I wonder which one's would. Will have to think about that.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Not sure about that one but it would be interesting if any of them do participate. I wonder which one's would. Will have to think about that.


I think it will be the usual cast of characters.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Another duplicate post. My keyboard is stuttering this morning.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> For Pete's sake, EVERYONE. This is like that silly tempest in a teapot that resulted from someone (sorry, can'tremember who) asking for a road map to hell, got the CORRECT answer, "you have to die" and this answer was taken as some kind of death threat. Several pages of drivel were posted about this whole death threat idea.
> 
> As we all should know by now, KFN is a faithful Christian and reader of the Bible. The Bible tells her the "end of the story". That's why she says she "knows how the story ends". Please, REMEMBER where KFN is coming from. Let's not stoop to h whaving an argument about


Thanks, Maid!!!


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Nope! Had nothing to do with that.


Well, you would know, so I'm sorry if I didn't read for meaning as I suggested we all should do. Please read my correct post somewhere around here and let me know what you think.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, Maid!!!


You're very welcome. Sorry you had to read the partial version of my post.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Not sure about that one but it would be interesting if any of them do participate. I wonder which one's would. Will have to think about that.


According to this morning's NYTimes, a few have agreed to join in on air strikes. What I think this means is that they want to learn how to use our equipment and probably will have no effect on ISIS.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, Maid!!!


Four or five messages up you responded to Maid's post exactly opposite, saying Nope, had nothing to do with that. I'm puzzled. But you can see I read your posts.
******************************************
Never mind.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Hearing this on Al Jazeera news as I write:

30 nations meeting in Paris currently to discuss what to do about ISIS. Participants agree to support Iraq Government under international law, economically and humanitarianly and 'by any means necessary.' Iran is not represented. 

Turkey will only allow logistical and humanitarian rights to it's air space.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> According to this morning's NYTimes, a few have agreed to join in on air strikes. What I think this means is that they want to learn how to use our equipment and probably will have no effect on ISIS.


I fear you may be right. :|


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Four or five messages up you responded to Maid's post exactly opposite, saying Nope, had nothing to do with that. I'm puzzled. But you can see I read your posts.
> ******************************************
> Never mind.


What she said about the reason for "the tempest in a teapot" was incorrect. But what she said about me and the use of my words was correct. I thanked her for supporting me and understanding me.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What she said about the reason for "the tempest in a teapot" was incorrect. But what she said about me and the use of my words was correct. I thanked her for supporting me and understanding me.


Yes, I got that.

But she was correct about the tempest, which began shortly before I joined in; I think too close a reading of people's posts led to a major brouhaha, just as my reading of your "know" led to a major yawn.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Boko Haram is trying to impose Sharia Law and continues it's reign of terror in Nigeria. Nigeria creating a special forces unit to deal with them. Al Jazeera news.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Boko Haram is trying to impose Sharia Law and continues it's reign of terror in Nigeria. Nigeria creating a special forces unit to deal with them. Al Jazeera news.


Nigeria is only now creating a special forces unit? Why were they sitting on their hands until now? Because the earlier incident only involved girls? :evil: :evil:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> According to this morning's NYTimes, a few have agreed to join in on air strikes. What I think this means is that they want to learn how to use our equipment and probably will have no effect on ISIS.


I hope you're wrong but I think you're probably right. I think that most of those who join in a coalition, will do so for purely political reasons. They feel pressured to do so. I also think that many will join in name only.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Can anyone realistically stop the extremists in the Middle East? As soon as everybody goes home, they'll just start up again. Supposedly, the remnants of Sadaam Hussein's army formed ISIS after we left. We're not going to get every ISIS terrorist. So? Are we planning on staying there forever? What's the point? What is the end game?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Nigeria is only now creating a special forces unit? Why were they sitting on their hands until now? Because the earlier incident only involved girls? :evil: :evil:


My sentiments also. Women are at the lowest point of the pecking order in that region and sadly only a means to an end. It's just as horrific as the ISIS scourge and has been going on for time immemorial with not so much as a tsk from the west for the most part.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Can anyone realistically stop the extremists in the Middle East? As soon as everybody goes home, they'll just start up again. Supposedly, the remnants of Sadaam Hussein's army formed ISIS after we left. We're not going to get every ISIS terrorist. So? Are we planning on staying there forever? What's the point? What is the end game?


That is a question unable to be answered in my view. I think the action proposed will have to be viewed on a day to day basis and I fear that the course of events will quickly become reactive rather than proactive given the unpredictability of ISIS.

I'm pretty sure that ISIS will be in an intense planning phase just as the 'coalition' is right now.

It's wait and see.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What she said about the reason for "the tempest in a teapot" was incorrect. But what she said about me and the use of my words was correct. I thanked her for supporting me and understanding me.


I'm not sure if you were around for what I called a "tempest in a tea pot". There was a big misunderstanding about the road to Hell that ranks, IMO, as a great example of misreading we see around here sometimes. It didn't happen in this topic and I can't remember what topic it was on, but it's not worth reading anyway.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Am I correct that you mean US and Canadian, Australian etc etc. troops should start a ground war? Or do you mean we should support a war that is fought by countries from the middle east. If it is the first it is scary, I hope if that is what you mean, that some other method can be made to work. Don't you agree that other methods like the plan explained by the President , is worth a try before sending our young men into another war in the middle east? It is a difficult decision in every way.
> 
> You might well be right. We are both likely surprised that there might be the possibility of an agreement between us. I do hope however that other things are tried before sending troops to fight on the ground. I am not convinced however that it will work. I do believe it is worth a try however.


No, you are NOT correct. I don't wish for any war. I just think that the only way to defeat/eliminate ISIS is by boots on the ground. Airstrikes serve their purpose, but what happens when ISIS starts hiding among the local citizens? That's what happened in Gaza. Airstrikes will no longer be effective then, nor will launching rockets. It will have to be a ground battle.

I think the other ME countries need to be involved- at least as involved as we would be, after all they are not out of reach of ISIS (if you believe all their posturing of controlling the world).


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

DGreen said:


> soloweygirl said:
> 
> 
> > I think the only way to defeat ISIS is with boots on the ground and discard most of the rules of engagement. The US needs the help and support of the ME countries.quote]
> ...


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Can anyone realistically stop the extremists in the Middle East? As soon as everybody goes home, they'll just start up again. Supposedly, the remnants of Sadaam Hussein's army formed ISIS after we left. We're not going to get every ISIS terrorist. So? Are we planning on staying there forever? What's the point? What is the end game?


If the extremists are to be stopped, all Muslims need to stand up to them. So far, the extremists are having a run because the other Muslims are scared to do anything. I understand that, but the ball is in their court. Non-Muslims can't do it for them. Their silence/do nothing stance is allowing ISIS, and any other extremist group, to grow and become more powerful.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I think you may have missed the news that was broadcast 2 days ago.
> 
> Canada signs up for Washingtons new Mideast war
> By Keith Jones
> ...


Sorry. They gave ammo and 50 special ops troops

I never said hate, I said destroy. And this needs to be done before another person is beheaded. I think the next in line is a Christian taxi driver.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> What I don't get is the lack of the 'embarrassment factor' with LTL and others like her when they make ridiculous statements like her last. And I don't care that this is an anonymous cyber site. Perhaps her behaviour can be reasonably classified as troll-like?


Oh really, troll-like from you?????

It was not a ridiculous statement. I was asked what I would do and I responded. You can not negotiate with evil monsters, they need to be destroyed.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Sorry. They gave ammo and 50 special ops troops
> 
> I never said hate, I said destroy. And this needs to be done before another person is beheaded. I think the next in line is a Christian taxi driver.


Destroy ISIS in the space of a week or two? How exactly do you propose to go about that--by firing off a score of nuclear warheads?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> No, you are NOT correct. I don't wish for any war. I just think that the only way to defeat/eliminate ISIS is by boots on the ground. Airstrikes serve their purpose, but what happens when ISIS starts hiding among the local citizens? That's what happened in Gaza. Airstrikes will no longer be effective then, nor will launching rockets. It will have to be a ground battle.
> 
> I think the other ME countries need to be involved- at least as involved as we would be, after all they are not out of reach of ISIS (if you believe all their posturing of controlling the world).


How would troops on the ground be able to distinguish ISIS from any other ME citizen? They are hiding among the other citizens. That's what terrorists have always done and still do. Women are fighting along with them too. 
I just can't see how this would pan out.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Oh really, troll-like from you?????
> 
> It was not a ridiculous statement. I was asked what I would do and I responded. You can not negotiate with evil monsters, they need to be destroyed.


Bombing the entire region and turning it into glass is not a ridiculous statement? You are missing something in your own words.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

I was watching a news broadcast last night, Monday night, and it mentioned ISIS could be gaining a toe hold in Pakistan. That could be scary. The military in Pakistan have been helping the Taliban and turning a blind eye to them for years, and now with the possibility of ISIS, who knows what will happen in the Indian sub continent. I searched the web and there are items relating to ISIS in Pakistan. I quote briefly from one of them.



> A splinter group of Pakistan's Taliban insurgents, Jamat-ul Ahrar, has already declared its support for the well-funded and ruthless Islamic State fighters, who have captured large swathes of territory in Iraq and Syria in a drive to set up a self-declared caliphate.
> 
> "IS (Islamic State) is an Islamic Jihadi organisation working for the implementation of the Islamic system and creation of the Caliphate," Jamat-ul Ahrar's leader and a prominent Taliban figure, Ehsanullah Ehsan, told Reuters by telephone. "We respect them. If they ask us for help, we will look into it and decide."


http://post.jagran.com/After-Syria-and-Iraq-Islamic-State-makes-inroads-in-India-and-Pakistan-1410093381


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> No, you are NOT correct. I don't wish for any war. I just think that the only way to defeat/eliminate ISIS is by boots on the ground. Airstrikes serve their purpose, but what happens when ISIS starts hiding among the local citizens? That's what happened in Gaza. Airstrikes will no longer be effective then, nor will launching rockets. It will have to be a ground battle.
> 
> I think the other ME countries need to be involved- at least as involved as we would be, after all they are not out of reach of ISIS (if you believe all their posturing of controlling the world).


--------
you misunderstood me Solo - I never for a moment thought you wished for a war. Your questions are the same questions I am asking. There is nothing about your statement I disagree with. I just hope we are both wrong. I do think we should try every possibility before it comes to that though. I certainly agree that those countries (ME countries) should definitely be involved and that the US and the Western countries should not have to go it alone. I can't see how it could possibly work without their cooperation. It is their part of the world and they have to contribute .I hope they do join in - I am not sure that they all will though or even if some of them will join in -- it is a worrisome situation in every way.

I also agree with Patty- I am not sure it will solve anything even though I can't see any alternative- they don't care if others are killed while they hide among the women, children and those not involved. It is so hard to fight an enemy that you can't tell is the enemy and that has no problem killing innocent people. So, for once we are on the same page.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Changed my mind - can't delete.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Can anyone realistically stop the extremists in the Middle East? As soon as everybody goes home, they'll just start up again. Supposedly, the remnants of Sadaam Hussein's army formed ISIS after we left. We're not going to get every ISIS terrorist. So? Are we planning on staying there forever? What's the point? What is the end game?


I understand what you are saying - the problem is that we can't ignore it. If we do, they will carry it on and on and that would be more horrific than it already is.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> --------
> you misunderstood me Solo - I never for a moment thought you wished for a war. Your questions are the same questions I am asking. There is nothing about your statement I disagree with. I just hope we are wrong. I do think we should try every possibility before it comes to that though. I certainly agree that those countries (ME countries) should definitely be involved I can't see how it could possibly work without their cooperation. It is their part of the world and they have to contribute . I am not sure that they all will though or even if some of them will join in.
> 
> I also agree with Patty it might be impossible- I am not sure it will solve anything even thoughto me there doesn't seem to be any alternative- they don't care if others are killed while they hide among the women, children and those not involved. It is so hard to fight an enemy that you can't tell is the enemy and that has no problem killing innocent people. So, for once we are on the same page.


In case I am being misunderstood - I just don't see how a war is going to be avoided - air strikes might do them damage, but as has been stated - they infiltrate and no one knows who they are. I don't know that we could win a ground war. I do think that the only thing that might help would be if the people of the area REALLY DO assist us. I am not at all sure that that will happen. They hate the west in many cases. Even that might not be enough.

I am not going to make any suggestions as I haven't any.

I am sorry LTL is using this horrible time to insinuate my country is not doing enough ,when she doesn't know what she is talking about, especially when it is because she has a huge dislike of me. That is not surprising to anyone who reads her posts.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> If the extremists are to be stopped, all Muslims need to stand up to them. So far, the extremists are having a run because the other Muslims are scared to do anything. I understand that, but the ball is in their court. Non-Muslims can't do it for them. Their silence/do nothing stance is allowing ISIS, and any other extremist group, to grow and become more powerful.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> If the extremists are to be stopped, all Muslims need to stand up to them. So far, the extremists are having a run because the other Muslims are scared to do anything. I understand that, but the ball is in their court. Non-Muslims can't do it for them. Their silence/do nothing stance is allowing ISIS, and any other extremist group, to grow and become more powerful.


People who stand up to them get to be dead. In some pretty gruesome ways. Google "crucifixions by ISIS" and then tell me that kind of barbarism isn't terrifying. I don't have an answer, either. I just don't think we here in our safe homes have any possible frame of reference for what those people are enduring and seeing.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> People who stand up to them get to be dead. In some pretty gruesome ways. Google "crucifixions by ISIS" and then tell me that kind of barbarism isn't terrifying. I don't have an answer, either. I just don't think we here in our safe homes have any possible frame of reference for what those people are enduring and seeing.


I agree!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree!


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> In case I am being misunderstood - I just don't see how a war is going to be avoided - air strikes might do them damage, but as has been stated - they infiltrate and no one knows who they are. I don't know that we could win a ground war. I do think that the only thing that might help would be if the people of the area REALLY DO assist us. I am not at all sure that that will happen. They hate the west in many cases. Even that might not be enough.
> 
> I am not going to make any suggestions as I haven't any.
> 
> I am sorry LTL is using this horrible time to insinuate my country is not doing enough ,when she doesn't know what she is talking about, especially when it is because she has a huge dislike of me. That is not surprising to anyone who reads her posts.


I cannot understand LTL's dislike for either you or your country. You always present a logical explanation for your arguments. Canada is offering assistance to the US in the fight against evil. I do not know what more she expects you to do, apart from jumping out of an aeroplane with a Kalashnikov in one hand and a MANPADS or gyrojet in the other.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> If the extremists are to be stopped, all Muslims need to stand up to them. So far, the extremists are having a run because the other Muslims are scared to do anything. I understand that, but the ball is in their court. Non-Muslims can't do it for them. Their silence/do nothing stance is allowing ISIS, and any other extremist group, to grow and become more powerful.


Australia's Grand Mufti, Ibrahim Abu Mohammad, has condemned the militant group Islamic State of Iraq and Syria for their barbaric actions. He said their actions are a betrayal of their faith. But he does not agree with the Abbott government's decision to send 600 military personnel to the United Arab Emirates to help fight ISIS in the Middle East. Muslim leaders in Australia believe there is a strong link between radicalisation and foreign troops waging wars in Muslim countries.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I cannot understand LTL's dislike for either you or your country. You always present a logical explanation for your arguments. Canada is offering assistance to the US in the fight against evil. I do not know what more she expects you to do, apart from jumping out of an aeroplane with a Kalashnikov in one hand and a MANPADS or gyrojet in the other.


I doubt that would do it. I am sure she would be glad if I tried. I don't mind when she digs at me- I do mind when she implies things about Canada. I doubt she knows much about Canada, what we are like, what our policies are etc. She is too busy to learn much about us - as her whole life is attacking the President.It keeps her too busy to learn about us.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Australia's Grand Mufti, Ibrahim Abu Mohammad, has condemned the militant group Islamic State of Iraq and Syria for their barbaric actions. He said their actions are a betrayal of their faith. But he does not agree with the Abbott government's decision to send 600 military personnel to the United Arab Emirates to help fight ISIS in the Middle East. Muslim leaders in Australia believe there is a strong link between radicalisation and foreign troops waging wars in Muslim countries.


=========
Actually, I think that is the basis for all the hate against the west. I think and always have thought, that too much ground interference in other people's lives and political situations, is not a good idea.

In some cases we have been guilty too but rarely if ever do we go and interfere on our own. I do think the US does want to 'fix' things too much. I also think that feeling we have the right to interfere in political situations for our own gain is insulting to a lot of people. I am afraid that is what is the basis for the hate from those in the middle east.

We sure wouldn't like it if the Government of a country from there decided to come to our shores ( US OR Canada) and tell us how to live or would feel they have the right to interfere in our business, or assist our enemies in overthrowing our Government. JMO.

It seems to be coming back in spades. It is quite obvious and I can understand the hate. Iraq is a good example. A lot of the problems stem from what happened there.

Even Afghanistan - The Russians tried to interfere and lost a war there -- Russian supplies, tanks armored cars, guns - thousands of armaments were left in the desert there. We have a friend of my Husband who was an official in the Canadian army and we had a very interesting conversation with him. He said we should never have gotten involved as we were fighting in a strange land, with people we didn't understand who were at home in that land and there was no way we could really change much. He was proven correct. He felt it could go on for years and years - which it did. We finally pulled out although I think we might have a very small group still there. I don't think we gained anything to be honest and many young men died there.

I am so thankful that Canada avoided Iraq and 
Viet Nam -- unnecessary wars which hurt the US in ways we will never be able to count. Once again, just my opinion. I just wish we had stayed out of Afghanistan too. I much prefer our Peacekeeping efforts than our joining in on wars.

Some Americans have said Canadian soldiers are not 'real' soldiers as they don't 'fight'. We 'fought in Afghanistan and our Highway of Heroes carried many many of our young men on their last journey with thousands of Canadians lining the road and standing on bridges watching the hearses drive by.

We have lost people in the PeaceKeepers. I always felt it was just as dangerous as actually fighting in the wars. As they stood between two waring countries and they were not allowed to get involved. Insults come easy from some, I guess.

I must get a word counter or borrow one from one of my friends on D and P. This is another long one - oh well, I guess you can't change some things at my age and it gives those who count my words something to do.


------


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you Shirley. I think much the same. How would we feel if others tried to fix things here? Right. WWIII.



Designer1234 said:


> =========
> Actually, I think that is the basis for all the hate against the west. I think and always have thought, that too much ground interference in other people's lives and political situations, is not a good idea.
> 
> In some cases we have been guilty too but rarely if ever do we go and interfere on our own. I do think the US does want to 'fix' things too much. I also think that feeling we have the right to interfere in political situations for our own gain is insulting to a lot of people. I am afraid that is what is the basis for the hate from those in the middle east.
> ...


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> Thank you Shirley. I think much the same. How would we feel if others tried to fix things here? Right. WWIII.


Thanks Dame -- I know where you are coming from and we are not at all far apart in our thoughts. I admire your ability to keep your posts short and to the point. Oh well, :shock: I don't seem to be able to express myself short and sweet, and envy those who do. You are a good friend and I am glad I know the members of this group. That is what keeps me here. We think, don't always agree, and respect each other. Actually there are even some on D and P that I respect. 
Some not so much.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> No, you are NOT correct. I don't wish for any war. I just think that the only way to defeat/eliminate ISIS is by boots on the ground. Airstrikes serve their purpose, but what happens when ISIS starts hiding among the local citizens? That's what happened in Gaza. Airstrikes will no longer be effective then, nor will launching rockets. It will have to be a ground battle.
> 
> I think the other ME countries need to be involved- at least as involved as we would be, after all they are not out of reach of ISIS (if you believe all their posturing of controlling the world).


Several people have probably already said this, but "boots on the ground" is tantamount to war. The other ME countries don't *need* to be involved, they *must* be involved. Given that ISIS is probably already hiding in plain view, that is, among the local citizenry. the utmost care must be taken to protect them from becoming collateral damage. Given the current disruption of many basic services, extensive humanitarian aid must follow right behind any boots on the ground.

I hope the coalition of about two dozen countries SOS Kerry is brokering gets to work as soon as possible. This is something we should be pray for. I ray even more that foreign intervention only comes in the form of aid to ME military services and humanitarian aid to the ordinary citizens already suffering as a result of ISIS actions.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Destroy ISIS in the space of a week or two? How exactly do you propose to go about that--by firing off a score of nuclear warheads?


That would turn the desert to glass - wasn't that the way to do it?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Australia's Grand Mufti, Ibrahim Abu Mohammad, has condemned the militant group Islamic State of Iraq and Syria for their barbaric actions. He said their actions are a betrayal of their faith. But he does not agree with the Abbott government's decision to send 600 military personnel to the United Arab Emirates to help fight ISIS in the Middle East. Muslim leaders in Australia believe there is a strong link between radicalisation and foreign troops waging wars in Muslim countries.


He may know what he's talking about, as far as radicalization and foreign troops is concerned. But what else is there to do? Until the Muslim countries send their troops, are we to allow IS to continue slaughtering everyone who gets in their way?


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Australia's Grand Mufti, Ibrahim Abu Mohammad, has condemned the militant group Islamic State of Iraq and Syria for their barbaric actions. He said their actions are a betrayal of their faith. But he does not agree with the Abbott government's decision to send 600 military personnel to the United Arab Emirates to help fight ISIS in the Middle East. Muslim leaders in Australia believe there is a strong link between radicalisation and foreign troops waging wars in Muslim countries.


I'm sure there's a strong link between radicalization and foreign troops in the ME. At this point, unfortunately, foreign intervention seems necessary. I only hope that this intervention comes in the form of supplying the ME countries who ought to be the ones fighting ISIS with weapons, etc., instead of foreign soldiers.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> =========
> Actually, I think that is the basis for all the hate against the west. I think and always have thought, that too much ground interference in other people's lives and political situations, is not a good idea.
> 
> In some cases we have been guilty too but rarely if ever do we go and interfere on our own. I do think the US does want to 'fix' things too much. I also think that feeling we have the right to interfere in political situations for our own gain is insulting to a lot of people. I am afraid that is what is the basis for the hate from those in the middle east.
> ...


As long as your paragraphs are interesting, who cares how many words you use? Keep talking; you obviously have something important to say.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Several people have probably already said this, but "boots on the ground" is tantamount to war. The other ME countries don't *need* to be involved, they *must* be involved. Given that ISIS is probably already hiding in plain view, that is, among the local citizenry. the utmost care must be taken to protect them from becoming collateral damage. Given the current disruption of many basic services, extensive humanitarian aid must follow right behind any boots on the ground.
> 
> I hope the coalition of about two dozen countries SOS Kerry is brokering gets to work as soon as possible. This is something we should be pray for.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor said:


> Purl]:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Thanks. Let me repeat one thing. *Humanitarian aid MUST go right along with foreign intervention.*


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> He may know what he's talking about, as far as radicalization and foreign troops is concerned. But what else is there to do? Until the Muslim countries send their troops, are we to allow IS to continue slaughtering everyone who gets in their way?


No, ISIS must be stopped. I think the trick would be getting the Muslim countries to believe that if they intervened it would be on their terms, not term set out by the west. The Muslim countries do not to be seen as tools of the West and doing the West's bidding. They must be allowed the dignity of making the decision for themselves. Many Muslim leaders in Australia have spoken out strongly against ISIS.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> As long as your paragraphs are interesting, who cares how many words you use? Keep talking; you obviously have something important to say.


Thankyou - I appreciate your comment. I know myself and sometimes I irritate myself! :shock: :shock:


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> How would troops on the ground be able to distinguish ISIS from any other ME citizen? They are hiding among the other citizens. That's what terrorists have always done and still do. Women are fighting along with them too.
> I just can't see how this would pan out.


That's where the other ME countries can supply the necessary and vital information. They can move about and go where we can't.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> --------
> you misunderstood me Solo - I never for a moment thought you wished for a war. Your questions are the same questions I am asking. There is nothing about your statement I disagree with. I just hope we are both wrong. I do think we should try every possibility before it comes to that though. I certainly agree that those countries (ME countries) should definitely be involved and that the US and the Western countries should not have to go it alone. I can't see how it could possibly work without their cooperation. It is their part of the world and they have to contribute .I hope they do join in - I am not sure that they all will though or even if some of them will join in -- it is a worrisome situation in every way.
> 
> I also agree with Patty- I am not sure it will solve anything even though I can't see any alternative- they don't care if others are killed while they hide among the women, children and those not involved. It is so hard to fight an enemy that you can't tell is the enemy and that has no problem killing innocent people. So, for once we are on the same page.


We are on the same page on this. Actually, we have been on the same page a number of times.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

DGreen said:


> People who stand up to them get to be dead. In some pretty gruesome ways. Google "crucifixions by ISIS" and then tell me that kind of barbarism isn't terrifying. I don't have an answer, either. I just don't think we here in our safe homes have any possible frame of reference for what those people are enduring and seeing.


If they don't stand up then they will be controlled by ISIS and ISIS will decide if they live or die. Seems like a no brainer to me.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Bombing of Syria is not going to be 'shock and awe' as Iraq was in 2003:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/09/us-strike-isil-sanctuaries-syria-2014916155412432503.html


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Australia's Grand Mufti, Ibrahim Abu Mohammad, has condemned the militant group Islamic State of Iraq and Syria for their barbaric actions. He said their actions are a betrayal of their faith. But he does not agree with the Abbott government's decision to send 600 military personnel to the United Arab Emirates to help fight ISIS in the Middle East. Muslim leaders in Australia believe there is a strong link between radicalisation and foreign troops waging wars in Muslim countries.


What do these Muslim leaders think is the answer to get rid of the extremists? ISIS' goal is to control the ME. They are well funded, well supplied and have "friends" all over. Their numbers have multiplied alarmingly over the last few months. They are in it to win it.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> What do these Muslim leaders think is the answer to get rid of the extremists? ISIS' goal is to control the ME. They are well funded, well supplied and have "friends" all over. Their numbers have multiplied alarmingly over the last few months. They are in it to win it.


*What do these Muslim leaders think is the answer to get rid of the extremists?*
I have absolutely no idea what the Muslim leaders think, I cannot read minds. I have to rely on what is reported in the press. I do not know the Muslim leaders personally therefore I cannot ask them for answers to your questions.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> We are on the same page on this. Actually, we have been on the same page a number of times.


I appreciate you saying that. I thought only I perceived that to be the way sometimes.. Maybe we can bury the hatchet? I don't care for hatchets. We will not agree much of the time but I don't believe we need to carry on a personal fight.

Sometimes we irritate each other but we are allowed. We are on different sides of a big fence a lot of the time.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

If the current U.S. strategy in Iraq/Syria fails, ground forces could go in:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/congress-scrutinizes-obama-military-strategy-25529446


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> *What do these Muslim leaders think is the answer to get rid of the extremists?*
> I have absolutely no idea what the Muslim leaders think, I cannot read minds. I have to rely on what is reported in the press. I do not know the Muslim leaders personally therefore I cannot ask them for answers to your questions.


Thanks for the non answer. Since you brought up the matter I thought there was more to it. Sorry to imply you might know more than you actually do.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> Thanks for the non answer. Since you brought up the matter I thought there was more to it. Sorry to imply you might know more than you actually do.


You asked 'what do these Muslim leaders think is the answer to getting rid of these terrorists' and I answered that. I do not know what other people think as I am not a mind reader and the Grand Mufti has not told me what he thinks. I will post the article in full, you may, or may not, care to read it.

Muslim leaders denounce Islamic State, fear radicalisation at home
AUSTRALIAN Muslim leaders say theres nothing Islamic about the murderous actions of militant group Islamic State.
The phrase Islamic State refers to an era when Muslims, Christians and Jews lived together harmoniously, the Australian National Imams Council (ANIC) said.
But the militants had misappropriated the terminology for their own political and violent goals.
Since the ISIS group was established we have been very clear about denouncing their lies and betrayal of our faith, said the Grand Mufti of Australia, Ibrahim Abu Mohammad, in a statement today.
These criminals are committing crimes against humanity and sins against God. Forced eviction, threats of execution and burning of places of worship including churches have no place in any faith.

However, ANIC does not support the federal governments decision to deploy a 600-strong military force to the United Arab Emirates to provide support for Kurdish and Iraq fighters battling IS.
They says there is a clear link between foreign wars and radicalisation back home.
Some 60 Australian nationals are fighting in Syria and Iraq and are being supported by an estimated 100 others at home.
ANIC wants the term Islamic to not be used when referring to IS, also known as ISIL, saying it serves only to give credence to the groups illegitimate claims of religious authority.
ANIC also warned Muslim Australians not to trust the internet and social media as some material may have dangerous influences on vulnerable minds.
Instead Muslims must get proper religious advice from knowledgeable, respected and qualified imams, it added.
AAP


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I appreciate you saying that. I thought only I perceived that to be the way sometimes.. Maybe we can bury the hatchet? I don't care for hatchets. We will not agree much of the time but I don't believe we need to carry on a personal fight.
> 
> Sometimes we irritate each other but we are allowed. We are on different sides of a big fence a lot of the time.


I don't really understand what you are saying. One sentence you want to bury the hatchet, the next you don't. If you can't figure it out, any attempt will be useless. I am not carrying on a personal fight with you. I said what I said and haven't brought it up since. This last post aside, the only other time I responded to you, during the last month or so, was when you included me in one of your attacks to another poster. I asked why you brought me into it and did not receive a reply. IMO if you need to resort to personal attacks of people that have nothing to do with the subject of your post into your posts, then you are not ready to make amends.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> You asked 'what do these Muslim leaders think is the answer to getting rid of these terrorists' and I answered that. I do not know what other people think as I am not a mind reader and the Grand Mufti has not told me what he thinks. I will post the article in full, you may, or may not, care to read it.
> 
> Muslim leaders denounce Islamic State, fear radicalisation at home
> AUSTRALIAN Muslim leaders say theres nothing Islamic about the murderous actions of militant group Islamic State.
> ...


Thank you.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Terror raids in Sydney, southern Queensland, continue to occur:

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2014/09/18/terror-raids-in-sydney-and-brisbane.html


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Plans for beheadings and mass shootings found during terror raids in Australia:

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/09/18/05/44/afp-conduct-terror-raids-in-western-sydney


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Terror raids in Sydney, southern Queensland, continue to occur:
> 
> http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2014/09/18/terror-raids-in-sydney-and-brisbane.html


Not on CNN.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

anetdeer said:


> The West is too concerned about being politically correct than being safe. When we finally realize this it will be too late.


I agree !! :thumbup:


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Mary Cardiff said:


> It has me really worried,My son flies back to Azerbaijan Sunday or Monday,The Nato meeting is in Newport uk,barricades are up in Cardiff,Do the have to broadcast events like that,


I sure hope he is safe.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

run4fittness said:


> I am still not sure what ISIS is. Just does not compute for me. Pre-senior moment I guess.


I know! Things must have been brewing with ISIL/ISIS for a long time. We never heard about them. Poof! All of a sudden they are on TV news. Since then there has been a fast escalation of what the west is going to do. Something keeps telling me (in the back of my mind) that this is some smoke and mirrors to get the citizens distracted. I don't know why, but that is one thing that bugs me.

I was thinking about the people in the orange clothes who were beheaded. Supposedly each one was denouncing their country and the west. I wondered why they didn't tell the masked one to *&^$%#%* themselves. Now I wonder if the masked one told the victim that if they made the video that they would be set free. Of course we know what happened.  

I also wonder why the UK/US and other countries feel the need to pronounce a high alert to the people. What are we supposed to do? It only serves to make people nervous. I mean so they can hardly function day to day. Tho we should be aware. hmmmm.

We just had one creep , a naturalized citizen from Yemen , who has been arrested for aiding ISIS. It was here is upstate NY. He posted on social media he wanted to help Muslims carry out jihad overseas. The FBI tracked him down. The strange people walk among us. The guy owned a pizza shop. These idiots live here and enjoy our freedom and all the while make evil plots.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

tamarque said:


> Yes, GroodleMom--The US manipulates actively in order to create divisiveness and disruption. The goals is always to weaken another State in order to control what goes on in that State. The US created the mess in Ukraine right now. It funded nazi groups with $5 million as a starter. And then demanded that a pro-West, pro-NATO leader be installed which the US selected. The Ukraine is losing badly right now, but you would not know that from the mass media. What we get are blatant lies such as invasions from Russia with photos that do not show what they are claimed to show. The Separatists in eastern Ukraine are well armed from the many tanks and weaponry abandoned by the Ukraine forces. But the big lie is being broadcast widely.
> 
> Gaza is a US intervention gone wilder than can be tolerated by Americans. $3 billion/year for 30 yrs for military aid to Israel has resulted in this racist assault on a people with far greater claim to the land.
> 
> ...


Is there another topic about 911 and coverups? I'd love to read it. I recently came across something that the destruction of the three World Trade Center high rises on 9-11, and why 2,250 architects and engineers have found evidence for controlled demolition and are calling for a new investigation. That's all I'll say here.
Yikes, there are 91 pages to read. I hope to catch up.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> I don't really understand what you are saying. One sentence you want to bury the hatchet, the next you don't. If you can't figure it out, any attempt will be useless. I am not carrying on a personal fight with you. I said what I said and haven't brought it up since. This last post aside, the only other time I responded to you, during the last month or so, was when you included me in one of your attacks to another poster. I asked why you brought me into it and did not receive a reply. IMO if you need to resort to personal attacks of people that have nothing to do with the subject of your post into your posts, then you are not ready to make amends.


okay! Sorry ! Because I didn't stay permanently usually because of the workshops and sometimes because I hated the fighting - you took exception to that and greeted my posts with sarcasm and unkindness. I reacted. We have had a problem with each other ever since which had nothing, in my opinion to do with Politics, although we are on completely opposite sides.

Obviously from your answer it isn't something you are interested in. so be it. Just forget it.

I just re read my post - when I said sometimes we irritate each other - I mean we are on different sides and look at a lot of things differently. I just suggested we keep away from personal attacks which both of us have been guilty of. There are lots of things we don't agree on. However it is up to you.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> I don't really understand what you are saying. One sentence you want to bury the hatchet, the next you don't. If you can't figure it out, any attempt will be useless. I am not carrying on a personal fight with you. I said what I said and haven't brought it up since. This last post aside, the only other time I responded to you, during the last month or so, was when you included me in one of your attacks to another poster. I asked why you brought me into it and did not receive a reply. IMO if you need to resort to personal attacks of people that have nothing to do with the subject of your post into your posts, then you are not ready to make amends.


changed my mind. no point in carrying of the discussion.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Watch out. When CB prays, a lot of blood gets thrown. If she's going to pray about you, keep the Shout spray bottle nearby.


OMG!! :XD: I have to stop reading and get some work done. :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> I know! Things must have been brewing with ISIL/ISIS for a long time. We never heard about them. Poof! All of a sudden they are on TV news. Since then there has been a fast escalation of what the west is going to do. Something keeps telling me (in the back of my mind) that this is some smoke and mirrors to get the citizens distracted. I don't know why, but that is one thing that bugs me.
> 
> I was thinking about the people in the orange clothes who were beheaded. Supposedly each one was denouncing their country and the west. I wondered why they didn't tell the masked one to *&^$%#%* themselves. Now I wonder if the masked one told the victim that if they made the video that they would be set free. Of course we know what happened.
> 
> ...


Had you ever heard of al-Qaeda before 9/11? I hadn't, but they were real enough. The ISIS loons seems to have come out of nowhere, but it's a pretty big movement by now and doing an awful lot of damage.

"These idiots" who live here and make evil plots don't see the rest of us as entirely human and feel fine about stepping on us as if we were bugs.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> OMG!! :XD: I have to stop reading and get some work done. :thumbup:


Hi friend -- how are you doing? nice to see you 'joining' here. It is a frustrating place but interesting and worth the discussions.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Just as I feared. One man charged so far, with planning to kidnap a person off the street, behead that person, wrap body is ISIS flag and film whole scenario to up load to You Tube:

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/09/18/05/44/afp-conduct-terror-raids-in-western-sydney


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Just as I feared. One man charged so far, with planning to kidnap a person off the street, behead that person, wrap body is ISIS flag and film whole scenario to up load to You Tube:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/09/18/05/44/afp-conduct-terror-raids-in-western-sydney


He did not do it. Your security is excellent I am sure. It was only a plan that got thwarted.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> Is there another topic about 911 and coverups? I'd love to read it. I recently came across something that the destruction of the three World Trade Center high rises on 9-11, and why 2,250 architects and engineers have found evidence for controlled demolition and are calling for a new investigation. That's all I'll say here.
> Yikes, there are 91 pages to read. I hope to catch up.


Here's the documentary that was aired on Colorado's PBS station, "Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth". Is this what you're referring to?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> I know! Things must have been brewing with ISIL/ISIS for a long time. We never heard about them. Poof! All of a sudden they are on TV news. Since then there has been a fast escalation of what the west is going to do. Something keeps telling me (in the back of my mind) that this is some smoke and mirrors to get the citizens distracted. I don't know why, but that is one thing that bugs me.
> 
> I was thinking about the people in the orange clothes who were beheaded. Supposedly each one was denouncing their country and the west. I wondered why they didn't tell the masked one to *&^$%#%* themselves. Now I wonder if the masked one told the victim that if they made the video that they would be set free. Of course we know what happened.
> 
> ...


And many of 'these idiots' are American citizens.

I'm Australian and our terror alert was risen from medium to high last week. This morning, our time, an all out raid by state police and federal police over 2 states was carried out and plans to behead people and to perpetrate mass shootings were unearthed. Our terror alert was raised in response to this and many other terrorist activities that have been under surveillance for months and months.

I'm glad our terror alert was raised. I see it as responsible and necessary. The Australian public is encouraged to be alert and contact authorities of any suspicion related to any sort of crime.

I hope the U.S. authorities are being as responsive and proactive regarding domestic terrorism.

Don't trivialize what's going on.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> He did not do it. Your security is excellent I am sure. It was only a plan that got thwarted.


This time...

Many people were to be targeted in this way. This clown was caught but how many more are out there? This is the problem now, these groups are splintered far and wide. Whatever occurs, it will be nothing like what we've ever seen.

I refuse to be complacent.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> And many of 'these idiots' are American citizens.
> 
> I'm Australian and our terror alert was risen from medium to high last week. This morning, out time, an all out raid by state police and federal police over 2 states was carried out and plans to behead people and to perpetrate mass shootings were unearthed. Our terror alert was raised in response to this and many other terrorist activities that have been under surveillance for months and months.
> 
> ...


We have to be alert everywhere. See my post about the terrorists that come from my home city.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> This time...
> 
> Many people were to be targeted in this way. This clown was caught but how many more are out there? This is the problem now, these groups are splintered far and wide. Whatever occurs, it will be nothing like what we've ever seen.
> 
> I refuse to be complacent.


So you are going to get your knickers in a twist about something you have no control? If they knew about these nut jobs, why are they only breaking the news now? The governments that are revving up to commit soldiers are selling to the public. I am not minimizing ISIS but I still read critically what I see and hear on the media. But of course, we should be alert.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> So you are going to get your knickers in a twist about something you have no control? If they knew about these nut jobs, why are they only breaking the news now? The governments that are revving up to commit soldiers are selling to the public. I am not minimizing ISIS but I still read critically what I see and hear on the media. But of course, we should be alert.


My knickers aren't in a knot but I am definitely concerned. The terrorist 'cells' have been under surveillance for many months. I can't speculate why authorities haven't acted until now just as it's not your purview to question them.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> okay! Sorry ! Because I didn't stay permanently usually because of the workshops and sometimes because I hated the fighting - you took exception to that and greeted my posts with sarcasm and unkindness. I reacted. We have had a problem with each other ever since which had nothing, in my opinion to do with Politics, although we are on completely opposite sides.
> 
> Obviously from your answer it isn't something you are interested in. so be it. Just forget it.
> 
> I just re read my post - when I said sometimes we irritate each other - I mean we are on different sides and look at a lot of things differently. I just suggested we keep away from personal attacks which both of us have been guilty of. There are lots of things we don't agree on. Don't worry about it . I am not. Just a thought and I should have known better.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> So you are going to get your knickers in a twist about something you have no control? If they knew about these nut jobs, why are they only breaking the news now? The governments that are revving up to commit soldiers are selling to the public. I am not minimizing ISIS but I still read critically what I see and hear on the media. But of course, we should be alert.


Way to go SQM. Make me look like a zealot, of which I am not.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Way to go SQM. Make me look like a zealot, of which I am not.


No I am just questioning the media. It seems that Rachel Maddow mentioned that Boko Haram is just as awful as ISIS but no countries are taking action against them. She was wondering why we are playing up ISIS which only helps their recruitment.

You answered me twice in two different ways. Confusing.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Had you ever heard of al-Qaeda before 9/11? I hadn't, but they were real enough. The ISIS loons seems to have come out of nowhere, but it's a pretty big movement by now and doing an awful lot of damage.
> 
> "These idiots" who live here and make evil plots don't see the rest of us as entirely human and feel fine about stepping on us as if we were bugs.


Yes we had heard of al Qaeda before 9/11, remember the USS Cole? the 1998 US Embassy bombing? These are but two terrorist attacks that were credited to Bin Laden and al Qaeda. He was also said to be linked to the 1993 Trade Centre bombings.

I remember watching the 9/11 attack live on TV, it took place just before 9.00 p m. My son and I were delivering Pizzas that night when the owner of the shop came out to the kitchen and told us to come and look at what was happening in America. We did not believe it was real at the time, we thought it could be a stunt to promote a film. Remember the 'War of the Worlds' hoax' of 1938? The owner then said "no this is real" and we watched another plane fly into the towers. Not a single customer came into the shop after that. We had one guy ride past on a push bike and he came in and watched the TV with us. We made a pizza and coffee and shared it with him. I said to Stan, the owner, "this is the work of that Bin Laden and his al Qaeda", and we had a discussion about his previous terrorist attacks. We closed early, about 10.30 pm and my son and I drove down to Planet Video in Mt Lawley, they closed at 12.00 midnight. There were very few cars on the road and no one was in the video shop apart from those serving. They were also of the opinion that bin Laden and al Qaeda were responsible for the attack. There were no cars on the road when we drove home. It just seemed so unreal.

Remember al Qaeda grew out of the Mujahideen who were fighting the Russians in Afghanistan. How many young western young men went to join them? I have seen a figure of 35,000. Also remember who initially funded and supported the Mujahideen because they were fighting 'the enemy' Russia?

We in far away Australia had definitely heard of al Qaeda before 9/11 and when 9/11 was happening we blamed them.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> My knickers aren't in a knot but I am definitely concerned. The terrorist 'cells' have been under surveillance for many months. I can't speculate why authorities haven't acted until now just as it's not your purview to question them.


Neither are my knickers in a twist, but we are alert. But the authorities have acted. Sometimes it is better to keep people under surveillance rather than jumping in too soon. They were watching them and did prevent any terrorist attacks. Remember, it was only a few days ago that they arrested the bookshop owner in Brisbane on charges of raising funds for ISIS. Perhaps they uncovered the extra evidence they needed when they examined the hard drives of his computers.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> okay! Sorry ! Because I didn't stay permanently usually because of the workshops and sometimes because I hated the fighting - you took exception to that and greeted my posts with sarcasm and unkindness. I reacted. We have had a problem with each other ever since which had nothing, in my opinion to do with Politics, although we are on completely opposite sides.
> 
> Obviously from your answer it isn't something you are interested in. so be it. Just forget it.
> 
> I just re read my post - when I said sometimes we irritate each other - I mean we are on different sides and look at a lot of things differently. I just suggested we keep away from personal attacks which both of us have been guilty of. There are lots of things we don't agree on. However it is up to you.


Solow don't even try. Think of the 'shower' scene and Norman Bates and it will make more sense to you


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> And many of 'these idiots' are American citizens.
> 
> I'm Australian and our terror alert was risen from medium to high last week. This morning, our time, an all out raid by state police and federal police over 2 states was carried out and plans to behead people and to perpetrate mass shootings were unearthed. Our terror alert was raised in response to this and many other terrorist activities that have been under surveillance for months and months.
> 
> ...


Don't worry, we are not. We had a wake up call at the Boston Marathon two years ago, but even before that the FBI was AND IS working hard to keep us safe. I truly believe that many of these terror cells are infiltrated and destroyed but it is kept quiet so not to alert other cells. A father of one of my son's friends is in the FBI and broke up a cell in NY state, and it was a pretty quiet story but could have had horrific implications if not found and destroyed. I also believe that Americans are more likely to 'if they see something, say something", like they did with the Times Square bomber. Personally I believe that more homegrown terrorists will be discovered by regular people that notice something is off and report it. But the latest guy that wanted to aid ISIS and was arrested was not American born, but was a naturalized citizen. I don't understand how a person could live such a good life in our country, become a citizen and then plot to murder our soldiers and others. What happened to them???? I heard on the news last night that 3 ISIS members were caught at the southern border on September 10th, but no new details have been shared.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Don't worry, we are not. We had a wake up call at the Boston Marathon two years ago, but even before that the FBI was AND IS working hard to keep us safe. I truly believe that many of these terror cells are infiltrated and destroyed but it is kept quiet so not to alert other cells. A father of one of my son's friends is in the FBI and broke up a cell in NY state, and it was a pretty quiet story but could have had horrific implications if not found and destroyed. I also believe that Americans are more likely to 'if they see something, say something", like they did with the Times Square bomber. Personally I believe that more homegrown terrorists will be discovered by regular people that notice something is off and report it. But the latest guy that wanted to aid ISIS and was arrested was not American born, but was a naturalized citizen. I don't understand how a person could live such a good life in our country, become a citizen and then plot to murder our soldiers and others. What happened to them???? I heard on the news last night that 3 ISIS members were caught at the southern border on September 10th, but no new details have been shared.


That's good to know, but to say that governments are inciting fear unnecessarily is totally wrong, (and I'm not saying you said it).


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> No I am just questioning the media. It seems that Rachel Maddow mentioned that Boko Haram is just as awful as ISIS but no countries are taking action against them. She was wondering why we are playing up ISIS which only helps their recruitment.
> 
> You answered me twice in two different ways. Confusing.


For once, I agree with Rachel Maddow. Except...I don't really wonder. It's all part of an agenda, they're following. Right, left, republican democrat, it makes no difference. They all follow the same agenda. Here's a Salon article describing the same thing I posted last week.
http://www.salon.com/2011/11/26/wes_clark_and_the_neocon_dream/


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Solow don't even try. Think of the 'shower' scene and Norman Bates and it will make more sense to you


yes, LTL - before I knew you as well as I do now, I offered my help with crochet by pm.- we know what you answered don't we? Your posts show who you are.

=========================

I am watching Scotland's independance coverage. I hope they don't break away, but I understand why some want to. I am not sure it would be a good thing for anyone.

It will certainly affect them in a lot of ways, some quite 
negatively in my opinion. 
---------------------

I have been reading all the posts about the situation with
ISIS and it is such a worrisome thing. I don't know what the real truth is and I really don't know what can be done to solve it. It seems to be impossible to know how to deal with any of it. Scary indeed.

--------------------
I will be off line most of the day. We are in the last days before our move and the 'girls' in my swimming group are having a lunch for me. I will really miss this group as we swim 3 mornings a week and coffee afterwards with other ladies from this condo. It is more an exercise group, we don't swim lengths- but it has been a wonderful experience for all of us - once every two months we take turns having a dinner or lunch for the rest of us and we often go on outings. Women can have such good friends. I would rather have friends and the only place I know that I have enemies in my life is here. Sad isn't it.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes we had heard of al Qaeda before 9/11, remember the USS Cole? the 1998 US Embassy bombing? These are but two terrorist attacks that were credited to Bin Laden and al Qaeda. He was also said to be linked to the 1993 Trade Centre bombings.
> 
> I remember watching the 9/11 attack live on TV, it took place just before 9.00 p m. My son and I were delivering Pizzas that night when the owner of the shop came out to the kitchen and told us to come and look at what was happening in America. We did not believe it was real at the time, we thought it could be a stunt to promote a film. Remember the 'War of the Worlds' hoax' of 1938? The owner then said "no this is real" and we watched another plane fly into the towers. Not a single customer came into the shop after that. We had one guy ride past on a push bike and he came in and watched the TV with us. We made a pizza and coffee and shared it with him. I said to Stan, the owner, "this is the work of that Bin Laden and his al Qaeda", and we had a discussion about his previous terrorist attacks. We closed early, about 10.30 pm and my son and I drove down to Planet Video in Mt Lawley, they closed at 12.00 midnight. There were very few cars on the road and no one was in the video shop apart from those serving. They were also of the opinion that bin Laden and al Qaeda were responsible for the attack. There were no cars on the road when we drove home. It just seemed so unreal.
> 
> ...


Don't forget, it was the US who recruited and funded, essentially created Al Qaida in the first place. Here's a video of Hillary Clinton discussing this fact.





Also, don't forget that ISIS, is Al Qaida. There was a fracture in the leadership of Al Qaida and these terrorists broke away from the main group.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/why-the-new-jihadists-in-iraq-and-syria-see-al-qaeda-as-too-passive-1405096590

So, these are our terrorists. They are being used to fulfill an agenda. Imagine a giant puzzle. What's happening now is but one little piece of the puzzle. That's why it's so confusing to us. We've not been shown the big picture. We are maniputed by the government, the military, and the media, to only see one little piece at a time.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Don't worry, we are not. We had a wake up call at the Boston Marathon two years ago, but even before that the FBI was AND IS working hard to keep us safe. I truly believe that many of these terror cells are infiltrated and destroyed but it is kept quiet so not to alert other cells. A father of one of my son's friends is in the FBI and broke up a cell in NY state, and it was a pretty quiet story but could have had horrific implications if not found and destroyed. I also believe that Americans are more likely to 'if they see something, say something", like they did with the Times Square bomber. Personally I believe that more homegrown terrorists will be discovered by regular people that notice something is off and report it. But the latest guy that wanted to aid ISIS and was arrested was not American born, but was a naturalized citizen. I don't understand how a person could live such a good life in our country, become a citizen and then plot to murder our soldiers and others. What happened to them???? I heard on the news last night that 3 ISIS members were caught at the southern border on September 10th, but no new details have been shared.


Imagine, if three were caught, how many were not caught?


----------



## MrsB (Jun 3, 2011)

One has to wonder what all the bloodshed and mass destruction of homes, businesses, churches (synagogues or whatever the structures of worship are in a particular country), hospitals, grocery stores, gas stations, etc., gains for a society. Even if whoever gets what they think they are fighting for, at what cost will it come? When all your relatives, children, neighbors and doctors, teachers, etc., are dead and gone, could you live with that? Ironically, war destroys the people sustaining it and the innocents not wanting it. The only thing war is good for is lining the pockets of greedy politicians and those who stand to benefit financially. Say, Dick Cheney with his Haliburton stocks, or the head honchos in the Defense Department. I watched those officers with all the medals or rank attached to their uniforms, trying to justify the demand for more money (billions, actually) to further escalate an already unjustified war. It's such a useless shame that a country rich in culture and history is being razed for profit and greed. Pure evilness.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Don't forget, it was the US who recruited and funded, essentially created Al Qaida in the first place. Here's a video of Hillary Clinton discussing this fact.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"These are _our_ terrorists?" Indeed... :shock:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Agree that things are scarey, but I see the situation differently than what has been posted so far. First, people have to disabuse themselves of the notion of the US spreading democracy. Quite to the contrary, the US has gone after every developing country that created a democratic process. It has gone in militarily and economically and destroyed those countries, placing fascists in office. Look at Gaza as a current example. The people elected Hamas and Israel went bonkers along with the US. The people have supported Hamas thru 3 viscious invasions by the country that falsely claims to be a democracy. And it does this with $3 billion/year in military aid. It is clear that whenever there is a democratic process that comes from the people, they always lean toward socialistic type govt's. That is too messy for hegemonic capitialism which is why dictators are preferred. Then if they get uppity and try to side step the US, they get taken out. That is what Iraq was about.
> 
> ISIS was propped up by the US and Israel. Israel actually supports a hospital in the Golan Heights I believe for IS wounded. Netanyahu has been documented visiting and supporting this. The US and Israel have also helped create and support bin Laden and Al-Quida.
> 
> ...


=======
Tamarque - we know your agenda -- You have the right to post your opinions as do we all, however, You made statements that I disagree with completely. I just want to go on record on that. Neither of us knows exactly what is going on but I have more faith in the US and Israel than you do. Your feelings are very clear on the subject. I don't believe Netanyahu is helping ISIS - I don't believe America is underwriting Nazis.

I have never answered you before but want to let it be known in my opinion your opinions are worth zilch, but you have found a place where you can post what you want.

If you are not anti Israel and the Jews , you sure do sound as if you are -here and on 90% of your posts.

You made these statements as facts - but they have not been proven, that I have seen. You always twist what is happening so that Israel is responsible for all the ills in the middle east, and America is always the 'heavy'too.. and certainly I believe the actions of the west have put us here, but I don't believe that we are deliberately trying to start a world war.

Don't misunderstand me -- I am of the opinion that the reasons actions have been taken have not necessarily been explained truthfully. The War in Iraq was based on a lie, we all know that. The US and the West have interfered far too much in the middle east and we are paying for it and will continue to pay for it. But to say that Israel supports ISIS is not realist and I just can't get my head around anyone thinking that the US would support Naziism anywhere.

Isis is not a problem?????? come on.

Sorry everyone, but I have been reading these posts for sometime and want to stand up and be counted- I am expressing my own opinion - and you are all entitled to yours.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes we had heard of al Qaeda before 9/11, remember the USS Cole? the 1998 US Embassy bombing? These are but two terrorist attacks that were credited to Bin Laden and al Qaeda. He was also said to be linked to the 1993 Trade Centre bombings.
> 
> I remember watching the 9/11 attack live on TV, it took place just before 9.00 p m. My son and I were delivering Pizzas that night when the owner of the shop came out to the kitchen and told us to come and look at what was happening in America. We did not believe it was real at the time, we thought it could be a stunt to promote a film. Remember the 'War of the Worlds' hoax' of 1938? The owner then said "no this is real" and we watched another plane fly into the towers. Not a single customer came into the shop after that. We had one guy ride past on a push bike and he came in and watched the TV with us. We made a pizza and coffee and shared it with him. I said to Stan, the owner, "this is the work of that Bin Laden and his al Qaeda", and we had a discussion about his previous terrorist attacks. We closed early, about 10.30 pm and my son and I drove down to Planet Video in Mt Lawley, they closed at 12.00 midnight. There were very few cars on the road and no one was in the video shop apart from those serving. They were also of the opinion that bin Laden and al Qaeda were responsible for the attack. There were no cars on the road when we drove home. It just seemed so unreal.
> 
> ...


Now who can beat our Ms. Eve for on the scene smarts?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> That's good to know, but to say that governments are inciting fear unnecessarily is totally wrong, (and I'm not saying you said it).


I wish I could agree but the government needs to frighten the citizens to get them agree to war. The government uses it own form of terror to get what it wants from us. I am only sorry that the US spent all its war capital on a heartless war for so many years and now the people are just plain uninterested in going back again when the need is more legitimate.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Way to go SQM. Make me look like a zealot, of which I am not.


I think SQM has a point -- we are all tired of war because of Irag and Afghanistan -and this is a legitimate worry now where the others don't appear to have been.

I think the last thing Americans and Canadians are interested in is another war - or Australia or other western countries. I just have a problem seeing how it can be avoided. It will never be an ordinary war - because the enemy is different than any in the past. I think each of us has different thoughts but all of us are concerned.

I think her remarks about your knickers in a knot was a bit over board though. I find that usually sounds like a put down, whether it is meant that way or not.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Imagine, if three were caught, how many were not caught?


Hate for ideas or people, can become a disease - That is why to me Hating anyone is so disturbing.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Neither are my knickers in a twist, but we are alert. But the authorities have acted. Sometimes it is better to keep people under surveillance rather than jumping in too soon. They were watching them and did prevent any terrorist attacks. Remember, it was only a few days ago that they arrested the bookshop owner in Brisbane on charges of raising funds for ISIS. Perhaps they uncovered the extra evidence they needed when they examined the hard drives of his computers.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I doubt that there is anyone on these threads who is as well versed as you are. I read your posts every time I see one and have learned much from your opinions.

Your knowledge of Australian and world events is outstanding and I trust your opinions. Keep them coming.

I don't think that humor in some cases,necessarily adds to the discussion as it can be taken as sarcasm and often is.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Imagine, if three were caught, how many were not caught?


Scary thought.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Solow don't even try. Think of the 'shower' scene and Norman Bates and it will make more sense to you


You are definitely one very sick individual. Who are you implying is the victim and who is the murderer? Your mind is definitely in need of cleaning, how can you possibly compare the exchange between two KP members with a brutal murder. And in the next breath you will tell everyone what a loving Christian you are.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

oops


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I wish I could agree but the government needs to frighten the citizens to get them agree to war. The government uses it own form of terror to get what it wants from us. I am only sorry that the US spent all its war capital on a heartless war for so many years and now the people are just plain uninterested in going back again when the need is more legitimate.


I definitely agree with your first sentence. Perhaps, if the government can't get people whipped into a war frenzy through the media, it will resort to another false flag attack.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Don't forget, it was the US who recruited and funded, essentially created Al Qaida in the first place. Here's a video of Hillary Clinton discussing this fact.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe that is exactly what I said when I wrote



> Remember al Qaeda grew out of the Mujahideen who were fighting the Russians in Afghanistan. How many young western young men went to join them? I have seen a figure of 35,000. Also remember who initially funded and supported the Mujahideen because they were fighting 'the enemy' Russia?


It was not Australia who funded and supported the Mujahideen because they were fighting 'the enemy' Russia. No it was the USA.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> It was not Australia who funded and supported the Mujahideen because they were fighting 'the enemy' Russia. No it was the USA.


 :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> You are definitely one very sick individual. Who are you implying is the victim and who is the murderer? Your mind is definitely in need of cleaning, how can you possibly compare the exchange between two KP members with a brutal murder. And in the next breath you will tell everyone what a loving Christian you are.


 :thumbup:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I think SQM has a point -- we are all tired of war because of Irag and Afghanistan -and this is a legitimate worry now where the others don't appear to have been.
> 
> I think the last thing Americans and Canadians are interested in is another war - or Australia or other western countries. I just have a problem seeing how it can be avoided. It will never be an ordinary war - because the enemy is different than any in the past. I think each of us has different thoughts but all of us are concerned.
> 
> I think her remarks about your knickers in a knot was a bit over board though. I find that usually sounds like a put down, whether it is meant that way or not.


One point that I find alarming is that ISIS appears to be gaining a toehold in Pakistan. Remember Pakistan is not a party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Pakistan covertly developed nuclear weapons over decades, beginning in the late 1970s. ISIS gaining access or control of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal is a worrying thought.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> I don't really understand what you are saying. One sentence you want to bury the hatchet, the next you don't. If you can't figure it out, any attempt will be useless. I am not carrying on a personal fight with you. I said what I said and haven't brought it up since. This last post aside, the only other time I responded to you, during the last month or so, was when you included me in one of your attacks to another poster. I asked why you brought me into it and did not receive a reply. IMO if you need to resort to personal attacks of people that have nothing to do with the subject of your post into your posts, then you are not ready to make amends.


Maybe she'll leave her hatchet behind in Calgary and actually apologize to those she repeatedly insults so she has a new place to live AND a new outlook on life as she leaves her nastiness behind. Who knows; but I'll be optimistic in thinking she wants to change and will stop attacking.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Now who can beat our Ms. Eve for on the scene smarts?


not sure what you are saying here-- but I think she is one of the smartest, well versed people on these threads. I don't know whether they qualify as 'on the scene smarts though, whatever that means.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> It was not Australia who funded and supported the Mujahideen because they were fighting 'the enemy' Russia. No it was the USA.


You are correct. I wasn't disagreeing, just adding to your comment.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You are correct. I wasn't disagreeing, just adding to your comment.


Thanks for the clarification.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> One point that I find alarming is that ISIS appears to be gaining a toehold in Pakistan. Remember Pakistan is not a party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Pakistan covertly developed nuclear weapons over decades, beginning in the late 1970s. ISIS gaining access or control of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal is a worrying thought.


Their history in Pakistan, goes way back.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Their history in Pakistan, goes way back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Good point, but I'm already terrified.



EveMCooke said:


> One point that I find alarming is that ISIS appears to be gaining a toehold in Pakistan. Remember Pakistan is not a party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Pakistan covertly developed nuclear weapons over decades, beginning in the late 1970s. ISIS gaining access or control of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal is a worrying thought.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Maybe she'll leave her hatchet behind in Calgary and actually apologize to those she repeatedly insults so she has a new place to live AND a new outlook on life as she leaves her nastiness behind. Who knows; but I'll be optimistic in thinking she wants to change and will stop attacking.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Nasty attacks have only one source?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Nasty attacks have only one source?


I don't understand why she doesn't address the person of whom she speaks.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Another video released by ISIS.

http://www.9news.com.au/World/2014/09/19/01/13/IS-group-posts-video-of-captive-British-journalist


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes we had heard of al Qaeda before 9/11, remember the USS Cole? the 1998 US Embassy bombing? These are but two terrorist attacks that were credited to Bin Laden and al Qaeda. He was also said to be linked to the 1993 Trade Centre bombings.
> 
> I remember watching the 9/11 attack live on TV, it took place just before 9.00 p m. My son and I were delivering Pizzas that night when the owner of the shop came out to the kitchen and told us to come and look at what was happening in America. We did not believe it was real at the time, we thought it could be a stunt to promote a film. Remember the 'War of the Worlds' hoax' of 1938? The owner then said "no this is real" and we watched another plane fly into the towers. Not a single customer came into the shop after that. We had one guy ride past on a push bike and he came in and watched the TV with us. We made a pizza and coffee and shared it with him. I said to Stan, the owner, "this is the work of that Bin Laden and his al Qaeda", and we had a discussion about his previous terrorist attacks. We closed early, about 10.30 pm and my son and I drove down to Planet Video in Mt Lawley, they closed at 12.00 midnight. There were very few cars on the road and no one was in the video shop apart from those serving. They were also of the opinion that bin Laden and al Qaeda were responsible for the attack. There were no cars on the road when we drove home. It just seemed so unreal.
> 
> ...


You paid much better attention to the news than I did. I must have heard of them; I know I had heard of bin Ladin so wasn't surprised when his name came up in the context of 9/11.

I got this email today (asking for donations) that said what you said: "In the 80's we armed the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. It led to al Qaeda & the Taliban.

In the 2000's, we armed Iraqis and now ISIS is using that very gear against us.

As we consider arming Syrian rebels and a rush back to war, we need you to help this country stop and think: How does this end?

Watch and share this video. And then call your U.S. Senators today to tell them to vote against arming more rebels and starting new wars.

Help others seriously question doing the same, wrong thing all over again.

Thank you for your action.

Best,
Robert Greenwald, President
Brave New Films"

The video is at


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Another video released by ISIS.
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/World/2014/09/19/01/13/IS-group-posts-video-of-captive-British-journalist


Thanks for the link. I have so many questions regarding these videos. I guess hope springs eternal in the breast of man. Perhaps they believe if they agree with their captors and condemn their own country they will be set free. I know it is easy to say that they should not say those things because they are still going to be killed.

Did you see that long line of Iraq soldiers being marched in their underpants to their grave where they were shot . Someone said they should have said "I am not going" and they would have been shot on the spot, but something deep down inside does not let us do that. We hope if we are compliant we will be spared.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes, I know that Al Qaeda is very firmly entrenched in Pakistan but ISIS is gaining the upper hand of the Al Qaeda network.
> 
> Another disturbing piece of information is the spy network the USA is setting up in Australia. The USA have had a spy network operating in Australia since the late 1950s but they are expanding it. There will be a monitoring station about 500 km away from my home. I have heard that the monitoring station will be used to assist the USA in their unmanned drone attacks in Pakistan. It is these unmanned drone attacks that is causing so much hatred of the USA and the West in Pakistan. Innocent women and children are being killed in these attacks. This was mentioned on the Australian Broadcasting Commission's Four Corners programme on Tuesday evening.
> 
> http://www.itnews.com.au/News/389407,spy-base-to-provide-us-aus-real-time-military-comms.aspx#ixzz3DgGU5kKO.


I agree, the breakaway ISIS is gaining the upper hand. One you create terrorists, it's hard to control them. I find it very disturbing that there are those within the US government, who desire to control the world. I don't believe that they are limited to the US government, but that they use our government (and others) to do their dirty work.

I also agree that drone attacks are killing innocent people. This is a problem that certainly exists outside Pakistan, as well. Most of us have probably heard about the wedding guests in Yemen, that were killed mistakenly by a drone attack. For those who haven't: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/official-us-drone-attack-in-yemen-kills-wedding-guests/

So where does it all lead? We've got war all over the middle east. We've got nazis with the support of the US, controlling the Ukraine. We've got Russia, ready to go to war to protect their interests there. We've got the US and her allies, preparing to bomb Syria, which is an ally of Russia and Iran. Their stated intent is to stop ISIS, but we all know they're itching to get rid of Assad as well. We've got Russia and China in the early stages of an economic war with the US. IMO, this is all leading to the next world war. It's about money, power and control. The masses are merely pawns.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MrsB said:


> One has to wonder what all the bloodshed and mass destruction of homes, businesses, churches (synagogues or whatever the structures of worship are in a particular country), hospitals, grocery stores, gas stations, etc., gains for a society. Even if whoever gets what they think they are fighting for, at what cost will it come? When all your relatives, children, neighbors and doctors, teachers, etc., are dead and gone, could you live with that? Ironically, war destroys the people sustaining it and the innocents not wanting it. The only thing war is good for is lining the pockets of greedy politicians and those who stand to benefit financially. Say, Dick Cheney with his Haliburton stocks, or the head honchos in the Defense Department. I watched those officers with all the medals or rank attached to their uniforms, trying to justify the demand for more money (billions, actually) to further escalate an already unjustified war. It's such a useless shame that a country rich in culture and history is being razed for profit and greed. Pure evilness.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Thanks for the link. I have so many questions regarding these videos. I guess hope springs eternal in the breast of man. Perhaps they believe if they agree with their captors and condemn their own country they will be set free. I know it is easy to say that they should not say those things because they are still going to be killed.
> 
> Did you see that long line of Iraq soldiers being marched in their underpants to their grave where they were shot . Someone said they should have said "I am not going" and they would have been shot on the spot, but something deep down inside does not let us do that. We hope if we are compliant we will be spared.


People must overcome the cognitive dissonance that allows them to think, if they obey they will not be killed. We saw what happened to the Jews at the hands of the nazis. We're seeing it now and we will see it in the future. As Edmond Burke said, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". We must stand up to evil and not delude ourselves into thinking that it's safer to obey. IMO, someday, this will be a decision most of us will have to make. We should be prepared to make it.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

A fine assessment. I am proud to say I agree whole-heartedly. I just wish we had a way to combat the money that demands war.



MrsB said:


> One has to wonder what all the bloodshed and mass destruction of homes, businesses, churches (synagogues or whatever the structures of worship are in a particular country), hospitals, grocery stores, gas stations, etc., gains for a society. Even if whoever gets what they think they are fighting for, at what cost will it come? When all your relatives, children, neighbors and doctors, teachers, etc., are dead and gone, could you live with that? Ironically, war destroys the people sustaining it and the innocents not wanting it. The only thing war is good for is lining the pockets of greedy politicians and those who stand to benefit financially. Say, Dick Cheney with his Haliburton stocks, or the head honchos in the Defense Department. I watched those officers with all the medals or rank attached to their uniforms, trying to justify the demand for more money (billions, actually) to further escalate an already unjustified war. It's such a useless shame that a country rich in culture and history is being razed for profit and greed. Pure evilness.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:    :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Maybe she'll leave her hatchet behind in Calgary and actually apologize to those she repeatedly insults so she has a new place to live AND a new outlook on life as she leaves her nastiness behind. Who knows; but I'll be optimistic in thinking she wants to change and will stop attacking.


joining the Party KPG? I didn't realize this had anything to do with you. I wondered whether you would be able to stay out of it. I guess i was correct.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I don't understand why she doesn't address the person of whom she speaks.


no need to ask -- she posted my city and everyone is well aware that I am moving. I don't try to hide who I am - I am not trying to hide behind a group of letters. Most here have other names. If I was an American on these threads I would possibly do the same.

My conversation was with Solo - no one else. Until LTL made her spectacular statement -- I wonder which of two of us she she presenting as a Murderer ! 
Ladies, I am moving to BC in case any of you don't know it. I have not kept secrets about myself on any thread in KP.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> no need to ask -- she posted my city and everyone is well aware that I am moving. I don't try to hide who I am - I am not trying to hide behind a group of letters. Most here have other names. If I was an American on these threads I would possibly do the same.
> 
> My conversation was with Solo - no one else. Until LTL made her spectacular statement -- I wonder which of two of us she she presenting as a Murderer !
> Ladies, I am moving to BC in case any of you don't know it. I have not kept secrets about myself on any thread in KP.


Because you have no idea of what you are talking about, I'll remind you. Your conversation was with Gerslay (probably ten days ago) in which you insulted and brought into the conversation Solo, LTL and me to insult us * again as you always do.*

LTL, Solo and now I am all responding to the attacks *you initiated against us for no reason.*

Someday perhaps you'll learn to act like an intelligent adult and stop with your child-like insulting of others that don't even bother to read/respond to you or care what you have to say.

Bury your hatchet, Designer, in your own backyard, as no one likes it or you for using it. Your choice - choose wisely.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> changed my mind. no point in carrying of the discussion.


Whatever.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> Whatever.


How many more times do you think she'll say that, then immediately bring it up again and continue the discussion? :XD:

I've been away for sometime, and the discussion is still going on and the same.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> And many of 'these idiots' are American citizens.
> 
> I'm Australian and our terror alert was risen from medium to high last week. This morning, our time, an all out raid by state police and federal police over 2 states was carried out and plans to behead people and to perpetrate mass shootings were unearthed. Our terror alert was raised in response to this and many other terrorist activities that have been under surveillance for months and months.
> 
> ...


We have had one man arrested for killing a college student because of what is happening in the ME. It is alleged that this man has also killed 3 other people for the same reason. We have also had others arrested for sending money to terrorist groups. Recently, 3 people were stopped at the Mexican border because they were on a watch list. So that means that our southern border is not secure, despite the administration's claim it is. It is not just Central American immigrants coming through Texas, it is also Iranians, Syrians, Somilians, etc.

I don't think we are trivializing what is going on, just not reporting every arrest. The feds have been watching several people in hopes they will lead them (the feds) to others in these terrorist cells. It is a time consuming effort, but one that will yield good results.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> My knickers aren't in a knot but I am definitely concerned. The terrorist 'cells' have been under surveillance for many months. I can't speculate why authorities haven't acted until now just as it's not your purview to question them.


I think the authorities would have reacted before now if they felt the cells were on the move. They use this time to gather as much information as they can get, all the while keeping security their first priority. They moved when they felt the cells were about to carry out their plan.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

SQM said:


> No I am just questioning the media. It seems that Rachel Maddow mentioned that Boko Haram is just as awful as ISIS but no countries are taking action against them. She was wondering why we are playing up ISIS which only helps their recruitment.
> 
> You answered me twice in two different ways. Confusing.


There is no doubt that Boko Haram is vicious but it by no means is growing at the alarming rate that ISIS is. BH hasn't moved at the rate ISIS has either, nor do they have the funding, weapons or "friends" that ISIS has.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> I think the authorities would have reacted before now if they felt the cells were on the move. They use this time to gather as much information as they can get, all the while keeping security their first priority. They moved when they felt the cells were about to carry out their plan.


It's since been revealed that a telephone call two days ago between an ISIS operative in Syria? Iraq? and one of the arrested here was the impetus for the raids. During the call, instructions were being given to commence random attacks on people in Sydney etc.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Maybe she'll leave her hatchet behind in Calgary and actually apologize to those she repeatedly insults so she has a new place to live AND a new outlook on life as she leaves her nastiness behind. Who knows; but I'll be optimistic in thinking she wants to change and will stop attacking.


Burying the hatchet is to be on her terms and her terms only. It's always someone else's fault and she keeps bringing it up unnecessarily. Whatever. Being friends with someone on their terms only is not my idea of a friendship, even an online friendship. No loss there.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> How many more times do you think she'll say that, then immediately bring it up again and continue the discussion? :XD:
> 
> I've been away for sometime, and the discussion is still going on and the same.


That reasoning was my beef with her in the beginning.

Deep down it's like a soap opera on KP. Different threads, but the same story lines. Leave for 6 months, come back and pick right up where you left off.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Fears of an attack on Parliament House in Australia's capitol, Canberra. This is the home of the Federal Government:

http://www.9news.com.au/National/2014/09/19/03/50/Fears-Parliament-House-could-be-target-of-terror-attack


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> Burying the hatchet is to be on her terms and her terms only. It's always someone else's fault and she keeps bringing it up unnecessarily. Whatever. Being friends with someone on their terms only is not my idea of a friendship, even an online friendship. No loss there.


Agreed - her actions have resulted in a lot of destroyed friendships - her loss, not ours. Sad really.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> There is no doubt that Boko Haram is vicious but it by no means is growing at the alarming rate that ISIS is. BH hasn't moved at the rate ISIS has either, nor do they have the funding, weapons or "friends" that ISIS has.


True - they also didn't specifically kill and taunt America and our President.

Obama is supposed to act when there is clear and present danger to the USA. There is with ISIS and he wants to ignore them as well. He seems to think if only he could come up with the proper words and talk to ISIS, he could get them to stop their war on the world. Ya, right.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> That reasoning was my beef with her in the beginning.
> 
> Deep down it's like a soap opera on KP. Different threads, but the same story lines. Leave for 6 months, come back and pick right up where you left off.


Sadly, there seems to be early warning signs of Alzheimers. I hope she is being carefully monitored by her doctors and medical teams. I wish her only the best, but her constant personal assaults are tiresome.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Sadly, there seems to be early warning signs of Alzheimers. I hope she is being carefully monitored by her doctors and medical teams. I wish her only the best, but her constant personal assaults are tiresome.


This is a new low, even for you. This is equally as vicious (probably even more) as LTL's reference to the shower scene in psycho.

Is your PMT flaring up again?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> This is a new low, even for you. This is equally as vicious (probably even more) as LTL's reference to the shower scene in psycho.
> 
> Is your PMT flaring up again?


I've shown concern for someone who has repeated for months on end the same exact statements and opinions and then regurgitate and continue a discussion that was resolved months earlier and she doesn't remember same. If you haven't noticed, you are not too observant nor caring.

I stopped reading her posts much for that very reason.

I have never had PMT and don't refer to it that way anyway, but go ahead and personally attack me as you often do without reason as well. We all know that is your MO.

Doesn't bother me in the least.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I've shown concern for someone who has repeated for months on end said the same exact statements and opinions and then regurgitate and continue a discussion that was resolved months earlier and she doesn't remember same. If you haven't notice, you are not too observant nor caring.
> 
> I stopped reading her posts much for that very reason.
> 
> ...


It's one thing to observe something quietly but quite another to throw it out there to cause maximum impact and that's your MO. You're no sophisticate toots.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> It's one thing to observe something quietly but quite another to throw it out there to cause maximum impact and that's your MO. You're no sophisticate toots.


Uh, huh. The woman has expressed in no uncertain terms her dislike of me and many others again and again and again. The majority of non Libs, since that is who she hurls her attacks at, do not even respond to her posts. So, how could we cause 'maximum impact.' We're not attacking and attempting to hurt her; it is the other way around, toots.

Join the real world. One would think a nurse, if you ever were one as you claimed, would recognize the signs and be the one to express your compassion and concerns. Don't see anything of the sort from you.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Sadly, there seems to be early warning signs of Alzheimers. I hope she is being carefully monitored by her doctors and medical teams. I wish her only the best, but her constant personal assaults are tiresome.


You just reached a now low - My sister has alzheimers as you are very well aware. Our family is hurting as you know. I don't wish that on anyone even you.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Burying the hatchet is to be on her terms and her terms only. It's always someone else's fault and she keeps bringing it up unnecessarily. Whatever. Being friends with someone on their terms only is not my idea of a friendship, even an online friendship. No loss there.


You win-- whether you believe it or not I thought I saw a germ of understanding -- You completely misconstrued my words - I should have not been surprised. The only possible way was for each of us to let the past go.


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## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

I know we can do nothing about what is going on in this world of ours, except to pray. I do know Who is in control, knowing Him makes me feel safe, I know Who is taking care of me. He is God, His Son is Jesus. Blessings to you all. Dorothy


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> no need to ask -- she posted my city and everyone is well aware that I am moving. I don't try to hide who I am - I am not trying to hide behind a group of letters. Most here have other names. If I was an American on these threads I would possibly do the same.
> 
> My conversation was with Solo - no one else. Until LTL made her spectacular statement -- I wonder which of two of us she she presenting as a Murderer !
> Ladies, I am moving to BC in case any of you don't know it. I have not kept secrets about myself on any thread in KP.


Thank you for complimenting me on my spectacular comment.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I've shown concern for someone who has repeated for months on end the same exact statements and opinions and then regurgitate and continue a discussion that was resolved months earlier and she doesn't remember same. If you haven't noticed, you are not too observant nor caring.
> 
> I stopped reading her posts much for that very reason.
> 
> ...


Maybe she is suffering from PMS or such a severe case of post menopausal symptoms because of her lack of estrogen, that she isn't thinking clearly and is angry all the time.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> You win-- whether you believe it or not I thought I saw a germ of understanding -- You completely misconstrued my words - I should have not been surprised. The only possible way was for each of us to let the past go.


Hey Solow, notice how she said you won, but then accused you of misconstruing her words which assumes you 'cheated' and not won fairly. I find that hilarious.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

georgethefifth said:


> I know we can do nothing about what is going on in this world of ours, except to pray. I do know Who is in control, knowing Him makes me feel safe, I know Who is taking care of me. He is God, His Son is Jesus. Blessings to you all. Dorothy


Thank you Dorothy, I, too, have my faith in Him.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Thank you for complimenting me on my spectacular comment.





Designer1234 said:


> No need to ask -- she posted my city and everyone is well aware that I am moving. I don't try to hide who I am - I am not trying to hide behind a group of letters.
> 
> My conversation was with Solo - no one else. Until LTL made her spectacular statement -- I wonder which of two of us she she presenting as a Murderer !
> 
> Ladies, I am moving to BC in case any of you don't know it. I have not kept secrets about myself on any thread in KP.


LTL - do those words I highlighted in red (that were within the SAME post) speak to you of someone experiencing short term memory problems? (also knowing of her past posts) I know, like me, you have seen the signs and deal with this concern in your family members. How, then is me bringing up what is so obvious, so uncaring when I recognize the signs in another?

I expressed my concerns and said I wish her well even though I know she repeatedly posts negatively about me and her dislike of me. There is nothing I can do to change or control her actions.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

double post


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## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

HI everyone, I noticed John 3:16 quoted, can you all imagine how much God loved us, that He gave His only begotten son, so that we would be saved. We will never be able to love as He did. But every one seems to be so angry with each other. Stop, pray for each other, try to love each other as He wants us to love. None of us are perfect. I honestly love all of you ladies & gentlemen. Blessings, Dorothy


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Maybe she is suffering from PMS or such a severe case of post menopausal symptoms because of her lack of estrogen, that she isn't thinking clearly and is angry all the time.


No comment - I took to not reading her posts long ago. The only posts I notice and read is when someone I follow responds to her with a requote or someone PMs me about a specific post they wish me to read and I do.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Hey Solow, notice how she said you won, but then accused you of misconstruing her words which assumes you 'cheated' and not won fairly. I find that hilarious.


Me, too, and no 'burying' of the hatchet either. Surprise!


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## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

the person you ladies are discussing is getting just what she wants. She is looking for attention & you are giving it to her. Put her on ignore & chat about something happier. With any luck she won't want to take part. Don't let anyone push your buttons. Blessings, Dorothy


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

georgethefifth said:


> HI everyone, I noticed John 3:16 quoted, can you all imagine how much God loved us, that He gave His only begotten son, so that we would be saved. We will never be able to love as He did. But every one seems to be so angry with each other. Stop, pray for each other, try to love each other as He wants us to love. None of us are perfect. I honestly love all of you ladies & gentlemen. Blessings, Dorothy


There are many angry posters on KP, but their words can be ignored, Dorothy. We can forgive them and pray for them.

I have many friends on KP who regularly pray for one another and love one another and also have a Prayer Thread to do so publicly for anyone.

Blessings to you also.


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## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

JeanWilkins said:


> Things are very bad in the world today. Everywhere, with all that is going on, I can see that we truly are in the "last days" as the bible warned us about. All we can really do is pray and call on the Lord to get us through and help us know what and how to do it.


If you believe in the God of the Bible, then praying is not all you can really do. It is the BEST you can do. He's not 'up there' wringing His hands. He has everything under control and all things are under His authority.


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## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Everyone needs to get ready Jesus is coming soon.


He's coming, but not that soon. Many things have yet to happen.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

removed my post. sick of it.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Thank you Baby Jesus

And thank you for the patience to help my dad and others suffering

Need to edit, KPG. I found that my dad is sometimes has no filters and makes very childish inappropriate comments. But, I smile, nod and hopefully coax him to a different place.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> That reasoning was my beef with her in the beginning.
> 
> Deep down it's like a soap opera on KP. Different threads, but the same story lines. Leave for 6 months, come back and pick right up where you left off.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Fears of an attack on Parliament House in Australia's capitol, Canberra. This is the home of the Federal Government:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/National/2014/09/19/03/50/Fears-Parliament-House-could-be-target-of-terror-attack


Thanks for news update. I guess that is the advantage of being two hours ahead of the West.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Yikes see I told you so KPG


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> It's one thing to observe something quietly but quite another to throw it out there to cause maximum impact and that's your MO. You're no sophisticate toots.


Ignore her. SOB. She is only grandstanding, seeking attention. Just treat her like you treat any two year old.


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## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

so sweet


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## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

I am capable of doing the "best" & that is praying. I see you are agreeing with what I wrote. He is in control. Blessings


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## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Show me I am wrong. Just because you deny it is a Christian nation doesn't mean it is not.


The US was never a Christian country. It was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, but that doesn't make it Christian.
I went on a medical mission trip to Zambia which also called itself a Christian country. The only thing 'Christian' about it was the music played at the airport. The way people and orphans were treated, sanctioned by the gov't, horrified our whole team.


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## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

Over the past 2000 years there have been countless attempts to interpret current events according to the signs in the Bible. There have been innumerable predictions that the Second Coming was imminent. All have been wrong.[/quote]

The past predictions were all wrong because the key element was missing: The land of Israel had not yet been returned to the Jewish people. The Second Coming will not happen until ALL the Jewish people are back in Israel. We are seeing that more and more Jews are going back to Israel because of the growing anti-Semitism throughout the world.


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## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

georgethefifth said:


> I am capable of doing the "best" & that is praying. I see you are agreeing with what I wrote. He is in control. Blessings


I am agreeing with you. The Bible (includes the Old and New Testaments) tells us 366 times to not fear or be afraid. One for every day of the year, including Leap Year. If we live in fear, we are not trusting God. He who has promised will fulfill. We only need to see that the fig tree is blooming again, and roses are growing in the desert. It is impossible for God to lie. I personally know He not only saves, He sustains and keeps us.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> not sure what you are saying here-- but I think she is one of the smartest, well versed people on these threads. I don't know whether they qualify as 'on the scene smarts though, whatever that means.


You are asking me what it means?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Sadly, there seems to be early warning signs of Alzheimers. I hope she is being carefully monitored by her doctors and medical teams. I wish her only the best, but her constant personal assaults are tiresome.


This is a cruel comment! You disgust me! You are truly a wolf in sheep's clothing! You claim to be a Christian and yet, you misrepresent my LORD, with your words! IMO, you should get on your knees and ask for forgiveness or go back to he#% where you belong! No one falls for your PHONY concern. You're a hateful person and I hope that your friends see you for what you are!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

georgethefifth said:


> HI everyone, I noticed John 3:16 quoted, can you all imagine how much God loved us, that He gave His only begotten son, so that we would be saved. We will never be able to love as He did. But every one seems to be so angry with each other. Stop, pray for each other, try to love each other as He wants us to love. None of us are perfect. I honestly love all of you ladies & gentlemen. Blessings, Dorothy


Or...take a look at who is behind all of the anger.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Thanks for the link. I have so many questions regarding these videos. I guess hope springs eternal in the breast of man. Perhaps they believe if they agree with their captors and condemn their own country they will be set free. I know it is easy to say that they should not say those things because they are still going to be killed.
> 
> Did you see that long line of Iraq soldiers being marched in their underpants to their grave where they were shot . Someone said they should have said "I am not going" and they would have been shot on the spot, but something deep down inside does not let us do that. We hope if we are compliant we will be spared.


Don't forget we are herd animals. Great observation.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Changed my mind!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree, the breakaway ISIS is gaining the upper hand. One you create terrorists, it's hard to control them. I find it very disturbing that there are those within the US government, who desire to control the world. I don't believe that they are limited to the US government, but that they use our government (and others) to do their dirty work.
> 
> I also agree that drone attacks are killing innocent people. This is a problem that certainly exists outside Pakistan, as well. Most of us have probably heard about the wedding guests in Yemen, that were killed mistakenly by a drone attack. For those who haven't: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/official-us-drone-attack-in-yemen-kills-wedding-guests/
> 
> So where does it all lead? We've got war all over the middle east. We've got nazis with the support of the US, controlling the Ukraine. We've got Russia, ready to go to war to protect their interests there. We've got the US and her allies, preparing to bomb Syria, which is an ally of Russia and Iran. Their stated intent is to stop ISIS, but we all know they're itching to get rid of Assad as well. We've got Russia and China in the early stages of an economic war with the US. IMO, this is all leading to the next world war. It's about money, power and control. The masses are merely pawns.


The kindle is certainly heating up. (I am just the Spirit who would have volunteered to be in time and space when WW3 happens.)

(Am I being converted?)

You summed it all up very well.

Go to Graduate School.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

georgethefifth said:


> I know we can do nothing about what is going on in this world of ours, except to pray. I do know Who is in control, knowing Him makes me feel safe, I know Who is taking care of me. He is God, His Son is Jesus. Blessings to you all. Dorothy


If your god is in control, then he is one sick bastard.

I cannot for the life of me understand how some Christians can claim in all piousness that god is all good, all loving, all merciful, all just, and takes personal care of them.

Take a look at what is going on in the world and tell me how the horrors we are seeing are part of god's plan. No copping out that it is the work of the devil or man's free will. Innocents are being slaughtered. Ebola is rampant in Africa and threatens to become a pandemic, which could potentially take the lives of untold innocents. ISIS is rising and threatening people worldwide. Passenger planes are shot out of the sky. Hundreds of girls have been kidnapped in Africa and may have been sold into slavery.

If god is favoring you, why is this? Are your prayers better than those of the Syrian Christian who is being crucified for his faith today? How is it that your prayer for safety is answered while the child or woman who is being raped is praying fervently with no answer? Why is your life more precious?

Praying is not the best anyone can do. It's a worthless exercise.


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## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

Hi there, yes my God is in control & all will come out good for man in the end. God in His mercy & kindness gave us all a mind of our own. We can decide if we want to choose good or evil. Otherwise, we would be puppets, God made us in His image & likeness. That does not mean that we are all going to be good. Again, He gave us the freedom to choose. Evil people make evil choices, good people make good choices. We can not blame God for what is happening, God made this world for us to live in and have peace & harmony. Man is to blame for what is wrong with our world. As human beings we are selfish, we want more & more. We should know the difference from good & evil, however, we don't always practice it. Blessings to you and yours


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

georgethefifth said:


> Hi there, yes my God is in control & all will come out good for man in the end. God in His mercy & kindness gave us all a mind of our own. We can decide if we want to choose good or evil. Otherwise, we would be puppets, God made us in His image & likeness. That does not mean that we are all going to be good. Again, He gave us the freedom to choose. Evil people make evil choices, good people make good choices. We can not blame God for what is happening, God made this world for us to live in and have peace & harmony. Man is to blame for what is wrong with our world. As human beings we are selfish, we want more & more. We should know the difference from good & evil, however, we don't always practice it. Blessings to you and yours


Please tell me then, why god calls down earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, floods and other natural disasters on the good and the evil alike. If it is a punishment for sin, then he is not just or merciful. If he can't do anything about it, he's not all powerful. Your god is a complete contradiction in his very concept. All gods are, actually.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> If your god is in control, then he is one sick bastard.
> 
> I cannot for the life of me understand how some Christians can claim in all piousness that god is all good, all loving, all merciful, all just, and takes personal care of them.
> 
> ...


Very sassy response.

I do, however, wish to remind the readers that all the judeo-christian religions believe in how you described god.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> Very sassy response.
> 
> I do, however, wish to remind the readers that all the judeo-christian religions believe in how you described god.


The judeo-christian description is contradictory in concept if one looks at today's world or any point in history.

Thanks!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> This is a cruel comment! You disgust me! You are truly a wolf in sheep's clothing! You claim to be a Christian and yet, you misrepresent my LORD, with your words! IMO, you should get on your knees and ask for forgiveness or go back to he#% where you belong! No one falls for your PHONY concern. You're a hateful person and I hope that your friends see you for what you are!


This is something that I agree with you - totally.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

georgethefifth said:


> Hi there, yes my God is in control & all will come out good for man in the end. God in His mercy & kindness gave us all a mind of our own. We can decide if we want to choose good or evil. Otherwise, we would be puppets, God made us in His image & likeness. That does not mean that we are all going to be good. Again, He gave us the freedom to choose. Evil people make evil choices, good people make good choices. We can not blame God for what is happening, God made this world for us to live in and have peace & harmony. Man is to blame for what is wrong with our world. As human beings we are selfish, we want more & more. We should know the difference from good & evil, however, we don't always practice it. Blessings to you and yours


You are an alter ego for one of the D&P set. My guess is Gerslay: she's one of the very few intelligent ones' on that thread.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> This is something that I agree with you - totally.


Oh, cmon! I think we agree more than we disagree. Don't you think?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> The judeo-christian description is contradictory in concept if one looks at today's world or any point in history.
> 
> Thanks!


That was not my point but I totally agree with you. I just wanted to mention that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all believe in having a personal relationship with god who lives in the sky and is a kingly, yet fatherly, figure. It is all metaphor.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Uh, huh. The woman has expressed in no uncertain terms her dislike of me and many others again and again and again. CORRECT - I have no respect or liking for you. The majority of non Libs, since that is who she hurls her attacks at, do not even respond to her posts CORRECT - that is their choice , and I have given up trying to find a way to meet most of them half way -you have them well trained - It won't be happening any more.. So, how could we cause 'maximum impact.' We're not attacking and attempting to hurt her;(NOT CORRECT)you are inserting yourself in most of my conversations, you are ridiculing my posts, you etc.} " it is the other way around, toots.
> 
> Join the real world. One would think a nurse, if you ever were one as you claimed, would recognize the signs and be the one to express your compassion and concerns. You are so compassionate -(And even when you tell someone I am suffering from dementia you still have to attack and ridicule the person you are talking to. TOOTS}.


hi TOOTS:

YOu repeat the same things over and over about all liberals, you have all the answers - you tell us how wonderful you are, how you know more than anyone else about what people should say and what they should think. I sure do get to you when I call you on it.

You have the gall to pretend you have compassion for me and tell people I am suffering from beginning alzheimers? - I have more brains in my little finger than you have in your whole body.

. You think you are superior you are able to cut, act disdainfully to mere mortals on the left, lecture us, tell us how wonderful you are. Tell us you are leaving and that you won't reply to my posts, and spend a goodly part of your time joining in my conversations in a negative way. I really get to you don't I? grin.

Do you honestly believe that anyone will accept that you are not trying to attack me or hurt me ? (what a crock).

My sister has alzheimers and you are well aware that she is reaching the stage where she will have to go into long term care. It is my only sibling, but you are such a good Christian woman that you try to make sure you hurt me as much as you can and then you pretend you have COMPASSION??

The word compassion to you is only to your group of people on D and P. Dementia is a heartbreaking dreadful thing - I just hope no one in your family suffers from it. I hope if someone does, you will remember your words to me.
You are a miserable woman but I didn't think you were as low as your are. When my sister stops being able to talk to me - I will let you know and you can have a chuckle.

As far as MY dementia - I will keep you informed.Yes I have expressed my dislike of you and your message and your arrogance -that is not dementia, that is my opinion-- and I will continue to do so -- It is worth ymy time to see how it bothers you. YOu say you ignore me but you insert yourself into nearly every discussion I have.

You are making a complete fool of yourself.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh, cmon! I think we agree more than we disagree. Don't you think?


You have a good heart and so do I, but I think we can both go over the top in relative degrees.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> You have a good heart and so do I, but I think we can both go over the top in relative degrees.


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I have found Designer1234 to be an intelligent woman and a true friend. I can only conclude that those who attack and upset her are vicious with too much time on their hands.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> How many more times do you think she'll say that, then immediately bring it up again and continue the discussion? :XD:
> 
> I've been away for sometime, and the discussion is still going on and the same.


You are disgraceful. You and your minions attack and repeat endlessly. You keep coming back. I'd rather have poison ivy.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Sadly, there seems to be early warning signs of Alzheimers. I hope she is being carefully monitored by her doctors and medical teams. I wish her only the best, but her constant personal assaults are tiresome.


Shame.

:evil: :evil: :evil:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

God bless.



lovethelake said:


> Thank you for complimenting me on my spectacular comment.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

What's your excuse?



lovethelake said:


> Maybe she is suffering from PMS or such a severe case of post menopausal symptoms because of her lack of estrogen, that she isn't thinking clearly and is angry all the time.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

.



lovethelake said:


> Thank you Baby Jesus
> 
> And thank you for the patience to help my dad and others suffering
> 
> Need to edit, KPG. I found that my dad is sometimes has no filters and makes very childish inappropriate comments. But, I smile, nod and hopefully coax him to a different place.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No one tells KPG anything.



lovethelake said:


> Yikes see I told you so KPG


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