# Two knitting questions for my UK friends



## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

First: What does "rib 2 tog" mean? I have a Stylecraft pattern that has a row that instructs (rib 3, rib 2 tog)x 4, but there is no instructions for what that means. It is done for the row when the k1, p1 ribbing changes to stockingette stitch, and it decreases the ribbing # of stitches for the stockingette portion of the body of the sweater. I have checked the Stylecraft website as well as googling the term but can't find an answer. When you have a 1x1 ribbing you automatically will not be able to keep to a k1 p1 rib pattern when you k 2 tog in any form. It becomes k1, k 2 tog stitch, p1. No matter whether I purl or knit that 2 tog it looks sloppy. 

Second: My understanding is that DK weight is the US worsted weight, but the DK weight by James Brett and Sidar that I ordered from Deramores is more like a fingering or sock weight, not even a US sport weight. I am having difficulty knitting the child sweater patterns I recently purchased, that feature those yarns, to the proper tension without the stitch looking too loose, esp on the edges where I have to cast on 2 additional stitches to create the front shaping. I have done swatches both in knitting the edge or in slipping the first stitch, both knitwise or purlwise, and I still get a loose edge on the shaping side. I realize I can hide it in the seam when I pick up stitches to knit the front band, but I don't necessarily want thick seams, esp in the front of the sweater. It seems the yarn is too thin to fill in the stitch properly using the size needle I need to achieve the correct tension. I tried making a section using a smaller needle where the tension swatch was just a couple of stitches smaller, but when I tried it on my granddaughter it was too small. I can't post the pattern because of copyright, but this is a problem I have found with other patterns using the UK DK weight yarns. Is it a "brand" issue with Sidar and James Brett?

Thanks for any ideas you can give me!!
Vicki


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## LaLaWa (Jun 20, 2011)

Here's a handy yarn weight comparison chart. DK is just a little heavier than US Sport weight. But it sounds like the ones you have are even lighter. I'm amazed sometimes at the difference in the actual thickness of yarn between brands labeled the same weight!

http://www.tricksyknitter.com/pages/posts/yarn-weights-terminology-and-us-vs-uk-standards-312.php


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## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

rib 2 tog means to work the next 2 stitches together to maintain your rib pattern (eg. if you have just completed a knit stitch, you would purl the next 2 tog). A DK weight would be most comparable to a US sport weight, usually working to 24 stiches to 4 in. on 3.75 mm or 22 stitches to 4 in. on 4 mm


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## christine 47 (Oct 7, 2011)

Rib 3 k2together repeat that 4 times.
Kpk k2 together kpk k2tog kpk k2 tog kpk k2 tog. K2 together is just that k 2 stitches together creating 1 stitch.
Worsted weight is the equivalent of Aran thickness yarn. Light worsted is like DK. Sometimes different Makes can vary slightly in thickness. DK yarn is knit on size 10 needles for ribs and 8 for stocking stitch ( 3.25mm and 4 mm). The increase row is usually done on the wrong side of your work after the rib. I dont understand why you would be decreasing. When you start your first row of stocking stitch (k row) you are changing up to a larger needle and the increases just blends in. I don't know why you would be casting on stitches for the front shaping, but if I was increasing a stitch I would k into the front and back of the same stitch to give me 2 stitches. I never slip the 1st stitch, I always k the first stitch on every row to give myself a firmer edge.
What is the pattern no. It would be easier to see the pattern.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

I looked more closely at the yarn after reading the replies here. I think the problem with the yarn is that it is not actually plied, so it doesn't have the body when it is knitted that a plied yarn has. I tried doing the pattern with a different DK weight yarn that is plied and it worked up beautifully. I was able to see that the yarn stretches and compresses during the stitching process, so it doesn't "blossom" to fill in the stitch after it is knitted. It also has "hairies" that can make it grab itself while knitting, causing uneven stitches. It is one of those self patterning yarns and although it looks plied in the photo you cannot split it into plies. I am sorry I bought enough for three sweaters, lol!! I bought it for the easy machine washing care and the color gradations, and it looked so pretty in the pattern picture. Oh well. I think I will use smaller needles and adjust the stitch counts accordingly. That may solve my problem.
The front of the sweater arcs out, that is why you add the extra stitches in the front.

The "rib 2 tog" is listed in a few new patterns from the UK that I just received from Deramores. No matter which way I knit it, there is two of the same stitches side by side at the rib 2 tog point instead of the K1 P1 of the ribbing. I think I will just do the decreases as K 2 togs on the first stockingette row for a nicer look.

Thanks for your help. If anyone has any other ideas, I would love to hear them!


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## christine 47 (Oct 7, 2011)

What was the wool and the pattern, I'm intrigued as I can't see how you are still not getting k1p1 ribs. In the UK the word plied means weight of yarn not how many strands there are, i.e. 4ply is a weight not 4 strands.


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## rosw (Sep 19, 2011)

I do the rib and then two stitches together, either purl or knit what ever is the first stitch onto the right needle. You will get a little collar round this stitch if it is purled two together. The other way would be to knit the first row and then do the decreases, as purl 2 together on the following row, evenly, to obtain the right number of stitches. this is what I do.
Re the yarn weight. I am having exactly the same problem trying to find worsted weight in the UK. I can get the correct gauge with DK and a bigger needle but the swatch is too 'thin'. Typically DK is 22 stitches over 4"/10cm. I am now trying Aran weight, which does not give me the 5 stitches per inch I need.So, i may try a smaller needle or try going down a size in the pattern. I couldnt wait to buy the Top Down Toddler Tunic for my Kindle calling for worsted weight, Cascade 220 @5 stitches per inch.
If anyone in the UK has tried this pattern would love to know what yarn you used!.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

christine 47 said:


> What was the wool and the pattern, I'm intrigued as I can't see how you are still not getting k1p1 ribs. In the UK the word plied means weight of yarn not how many strands there are, i.e. 4ply is a weight not 4 strands.


I used the term "ply" when I probably would have been clearer with strands.

If you knit 1 purl 1 for your ribbing, then knit (or purl) 2 together, you will get either K1, P1, K1 (the rib 2 tog stitch), K1 or the opposite P1, K1, P1 (the rib 2 tog stitch), P1. Make a swatch and see for yourself.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

rosw said:


> I do the rib and then two stitches together, either purl or knit what ever is the first stitch onto the right needle. You will get a little collar round this stitch if it is purled two together. The other way would be to knit the first row and then do the decreases, as purl 2 together on the following row, evenly, to obtain the right number of stitches. this is what I do.
> Re the yarn weight. I am having exactly the same problem trying to find worsted weight in the UK. I can get the correct gauge with DK and a bigger needle but the swatch is too 'thin'. Typically DK is 22 stitches over 4"/10cm. I am now trying Aran weight, which does not give me the 5 stitches per inch I need.So, i may try a smaller needle or try going down a size in the pattern. I couldnt wait to buy the Top Down Toddler Tunic for my Kindle calling for worsted weight, Cascade 220 @5 stitches per inch.
> If anyone in the UK has tried this pattern would love to know what yarn you used!.


I agree - that is my problem- that the swatch is too thin. I have been buying yarn from Deramores (UK) as well as patterns, and I can see now that there is a difference in yarn weights between the two countries. My experience with weights does not transfer between the two countries, so I expect the resulting project to be in US weights or appearance and it isn't if I am using a UK yarn and/or pattern. A US chunky yarn is not the same as a DK chunky yarn, etc. The problem comes for me when I am making an article of clothing, because then the size of the garment is affected. You are having the same conversion problems I am having, I think.

I don't care for that collar that results from the purl stitching, so I pulled that row out and am just going to do what you do - purl to together on the 1st stockingette row. It gives a much neater experience.


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## dissi (Jun 22, 2011)

could you give us the pattern number? I have several James C Brett and Stylecraft patterns, it would help me see where your problems are...ive have never had an error in yarn either from Deramores,could you have possibly ordered 4ply (thinner) instead of Double Knit? Its the only way i can see the yarn being thinner than recommended?


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## christine 47 (Oct 7, 2011)

Try K2 p1 k2tog p1 k1 p1 k2 tog. When you come back along the next row it will be k1 p1 rib.

Re reading your posting it said rib 3 k2 together so I assumed k1 p1 k1 but it isn't, it's as above.

This cardigan is made in Aran weight, your worsted and the leg warmers are made in DK, your light worsted.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

christine 47 said:


> What was the wool and the pattern, I'm intrigued as I can't see how you are still not getting k1p1 ribs. In the UK the word plied means weight of yarn not how many strands there are, i.e. 4ply is a weight not 4 strands.


I can't find the link to the pattern. It was just a photo of the sweater, no details.

The yarn is:
http://us.deramores.com/james-c-brett-magi-knit-dk


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## christine 47 (Oct 7, 2011)

vjh1530 said:


> christine 47 said:
> 
> 
> > What was the wool and the pattern, I'm intrigued as I can't see how you are still not getting k1p1 ribs. In the UK the word plied means weight of yarn not how many strands there are, i.e. 4ply is a weight not 4 strands.
> ...


That yarn I would use 3.25mm for the ribs and 4mm for the main part.


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## lavertera (Mar 15, 2011)

I use a lot of DK in baby patterns and to be quite honest, I do find differences between different brands. I always look at the thickness as I like knitting baby stuff in quite fine DK and they do knit up better. As you may realise, most UK knitters don't "swatch" before knitting an item. I did it once when I was given some baby dk and asked to knit a certain set and to be honest again, I knew it would turn out too thick. I did a swatch and just couldn't get it right.

I downloaded some equivelants last night and they all were different in what these were. This has now totally confused me.

I think this may have confused you even more, sorry don't want to do but, I have to be honest. :roll: 


Pam


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## janwalla (Jul 17, 2012)

A KP member called Hazel posted this, which may help, Because with this method you are able to use any yarn for any pattern at all and it will turn out ok.

"Knit a swatch in the size needle that gives you the kind of fabric you like. Doesn't matter if your needle size is the same as that in the pattern. Usually, knitting 20 rows of 20 stitches each should be enough.

Now, measure how many stitches per inch you get. Let's say you got 4 stitches per inch. Now divide that by the number of stitches given in the gauge in the pattern. Let's say that's 8 stitches.

So, you've got 4 stitches divided by 8 stitches, which gives you 0.5. This is called your "conversion factor." Multiply all numbers in the pattern by this conversion factor, and you'll be fine.

So, if the pattern tells you to cast on 100 stitches, multiply that by 0.5. That comes to 50 stitches that you cast on.


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## christine 47 (Oct 7, 2011)

I never do a swatch before knitting because I know if I use the needles stated on the wool band that my tension that I knit at will come out at the size I require. After I have knit a few rows then I will put a tape across just to check. I normally keep to the same brands of yarn so the thickness is always the same.


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## ForgetfulFi (Sep 29, 2012)

Hi Vicki, the decreases in the ribbing is to stop the stocking stitch from balooning.If you carried on to the stocking stitch with bigger needles, the article would be loose with a tight ribbed welt. YOu didn't say if the stocking stitch is knit stitches on the rs or the purl stitches showing. Usually you decrease the rib then the next row is the RS and you go up to a larger size needle. If the RS is knit stitches then purl 2 tog for the decrease. If RS is purl then K2tog for the decrease, then the stockinette will continue smoothly. James Brett yarn does seem rather thin.But is good value for money and as you said washes well too. Baby clothes look better with finer ply knitted on thinner needles. I would use 3.25mm for the rib and 4mm for the SS. Hope that all makes sense. Best wishes and Merry Christmas. Fiona


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

lavertera said:


> I use a lot of DK in baby patterns and to be quite honest, I do find differences between different brands. I always look at the thickness as I like knitting baby stuff in quite fine DK and they do knit up better. As you may realise, most UK knitters don't "swatch" before knitting an item. I did it once when I was given some baby dk and asked to knit a certain set and to be honest again, I knew it would turn out too thick. I did a swatch and just couldn't get it right.
> 
> I downloaded some equivelants last night and they all were different in what these were. This has now totally confused me.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with you. Unfortunately it is another one of the downfalls of online ordering, I guess. I'm just glad to hear you say I'm not the only one, lol!! Thanks! You made my day, lol!


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

janwalla said:


> A KP member called Hazel posted this, which may help, Because with this method you are able to use any yarn for any pattern at all and it will turn out ok.
> 
> "Knit a swatch in the size needle that gives you the kind of fabric you like. Doesn't matter if your needle size is the same as that in the pattern. Usually, knitting 20 rows of 20 stitches each should be enough.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much! I copied and pasted this formula so I can keep it with my sweater patterns.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

ForgetfulFi said:


> Hi Vicki, the decreases in the ribbing is to stop the stocking stitch from balooning.If you carried on to the stocking stitch with bigger needles, the article would be loose with a tight ribbed welt. YOu didn't say if the stocking stitch is knit stitches on the rs or the purl stitches showing. Usually you decrease the rib then the next row is the RS and you go up to a larger size needle. If the RS is knit stitches then purl 2 tog for the decrease. If RS is purl then K2tog for the decrease, then the stockinette will continue smoothly. James Brett yarn does seem rather thin.But is good value for money and as you said washes well too. Baby clothes look better with finer ply knitted on thinner needles. I would use 3.25mm for the rib and 4mm for the SS. Hope that all makes sense. Best wishes and Merry Christmas. Fiona


OK now I understand why it is done. Thanks! That really helps! It is purl for WS and knit for RS, so I will purl the rib 2 tog.
The sweater I am making is for a 5 yr old, so I was making the biggest size. The problem is that I couldn't get the 22 st (gauge) with the 4 mm needles unless I used 5mm needles - I kept getting 24 stitches on the 4 mm needles. That changed the size of the sweater. When I used the 5 mm needles the stitches seemed too loose, esp on the edges. I like the self-patterning of the yarn, but trying to knit to gauge with that yarn is frustrating. I think I will need to use Hazel's conversion formula to re-calculate the # of stitches to make it look the way I want and fit properly.
Thanks again.


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## lizmaxwell (Jul 23, 2011)

Janwalla that was a very useful piece of advise i shall have to make a note of that


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## rosw (Sep 19, 2011)

That is brilliant. This will save my bacon!


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## Moondancermel (Nov 18, 2012)

vjh1530 said:


> First: What does "rib 2 tog" mean? I have a Stylecraft pattern that has a row that instructs (rib 3, rib 2 tog)x 4, but there is no instructions for what that means. It is done for the row when the k1, p1 ribbing changes to stockingette stitch, and it decreases the ribbing # of stitches for the stockingette portion of the body of the sweater. I have checked the Stylecraft website as well as googling the term but can't find an answer. When you have a 1x1 ribbing you automatically will not be able to keep to a k1 p1 rib pattern when you k 2 tog in any form. It becomes k1, k 2 tog stitch, p1. No matter whether I purl or knit that 2 tog it looks sloppy.
> 
> Second: My understanding is that DK weight is the US worsted weight, but the DK weight by James Brett and Sidar that I ordered from Deramores is more like a fingering or sock weight, not even a US sport weight. I am having difficulty knitting the child sweater patterns I recently purchased, that feature those yarns, to the proper tension without the stitch looking too loose, esp on the edges where I have to cast on 2 additional stitches to create the front shaping. I have done swatches both in knitting the edge or in slipping the first stitch, both knitwise or purlwise, and I still get a loose edge on the shaping side. I realize I can hide it in the seam when I pick up stitches to knit the front band, but I don't necessarily want thick seams, esp in the front of the sweater. It seems the yarn is too thin to fill in the stitch properly using the size needle I need to achieve the correct tension. I tried making a section using a smaller needle where the tension swatch was just a couple of stitches smaller, but when I tried it on my granddaughter it was too small. I can't post the pattern because of copyright, but this is a problem I have found with other patterns using the UK DK weight yarns. Is it a "brand" issue with Sidar and James Brett?
> 
> ...


Generally I knit the first row where you add or subtract stitches going from rib to stockinette. All the pattern is saying is to knit 3 stitches and then knit 2 together. They use the term rib as this is what the stitches are at the moment. As you have stated there is no point in trying to rib these stitches at it messes up the rib.

I have knitted with worsted weight yarns and have found them to be thicker than double knit. I can only think they are a close match but as you have found out many double knits are not plied. It does depend on the yarn style rather than the maker. It may be that the yarn is looser and has more air in it making it feel thicker but I end up using larger needles when I use worsted weight. It may also be that you knit on the tight side and need a bigger needle to get the gauge, which makes the knitting loose at the edge when you use double knit. I think your only solution is to knit a larger size pattern wise with a smaller gauge to make it fit.


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## miffy49 (Dec 18, 2012)

I see the yarn in question was the JCB Magiknit. I have used this yarn in the past and its lovely and soft but it isn't really a normal DK even though they say it on the label. Its much thinner and nearer to a UK 4ply ( US sport). I was able to use it up as just about everything I make is for charity so size isn't an issue but I can't see it working to an ordinary DK pattern.


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## Mum7 (Oct 11, 2011)

I have the same problem in reverse. Can't match the USA hickness to the UK, despite a yard comparison chart which a KPer kindly forwarded. I think this is because a lot of the yarns don't have weight but Brand names.


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## miffy49 (Dec 18, 2012)

Does anyone else find that yarns seem to have changed lately? I don't know if its the more modern spinning methods but lots of yarns seem fuller and more bulky now so that a lot of them are difficult to adapt to older patterns. Most things I make go to a UK charity called Cuddles. We supply the specialist bereavement midwives with tiny buriel items. Most of what we make is for babies of 16 to 24 weeks so they have to be very delicate. I find more and more that the various 3ply (fingering) yarns are too thick and I'm having to move down to 2ply. Is this common elsewhere or is it just a UK thing?


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

miffy49 said:


> I see the yarn in question was the JCB Magiknit. I have used this yarn in the past and its lovely and soft but it isn't really a normal DK even though they say it on the label. Its much thinner and nearer to a UK 4ply ( US sport). I was able to use it up as just about everything I make is for charity so size isn't an issue but I can't see it working to an ordinary DK pattern.


Thanks! It's not just me, lol!!


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

Mum7 said:


> I have the same problem in reverse. Can't match the USA hickness to the UK, despite a yard comparison chart which a KPer kindly forwarded. I think this is because a lot of the yarns don't have weight but Brand names.


I agree. Plus the meaning of terms is different, for example, the word "ply". In the UK it is a weight term (like fingering or DK), but in the US it can describe how many strands make up the yarn. I have found that US companies version of DK yarn found in the stores like Michaels and Joanns is often thicker than the DK I get when I buy UK company yarns. No big deal when you are making things like scarves that don't have to fit, but a big problem when making something like a sweater.

I really appreciate all the comments and help from everyone, thanks! Now I know how to use that yarn and adapt the patterns so that the sweaters fit.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

miffy49 said:


> Does anyone else find that yarns seem to have changed lately? I don't know if its the more modern spinning methods but lots of yarns seem fuller and more bulky now so that a lot of them are difficult to adapt to older patterns. Most things I make go to a UK charity called Cuddles. We supply the specialist bereavement midwives with tiny buriel items. Most of what we make is for babies of 16 to 24 weeks so they have to be very delicate. I find more and more that the various 3ply (fingering) yarns are too thick and I'm having to move down to 2ply. Is this common elsewhere or is it just a UK thing?


What a great charity. It must be emotionally hard for you to knit tiny baby clothing for such sad events. But it must give you tremendous satisfaction to know what a wonderful comfort you are providing for those parents by making something beautiful for their little angels. I so admire you!


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## miffy49 (Dec 18, 2012)

Thanks. It can be a bit sad but it does bring a lot of comfort to the parents and we get some lovely letters that make it so worthwhile. My own speciality is iny crochet cribs with matching bedding for the very fragile babies. I've always loved doing fiddly stuff so you could say that they fulfil two needs! LOL


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## lizmaxwell (Jul 23, 2011)

I agree about lots of yarns going by names not weight. Also these yarns dont seem to comply to standard as manufactuers want you to use their own particular yarn for their published patterns. 
My own way of dealing with this is too at the recommended needle size , tension and if possible total length of yarn needed and compare that to the yarn i wish to use. So for instance if the pattern states that a 4mm needle is required i know that 9/10 the thickness of the yarn will roughly equate to what we would think of as Dk. However i now always swatch to be sure.

In one of the earlier posts somebody said
that uk knitters rarely swatch. I think that has been caused by the fact that until recently our yarns were very regular in thicknesses ie 4ply ( like sock yarn ), DK used for what you might think of ordinary winter garments or Aran used for thicker knitwear such as fishermans sweaters.

Also i think that we have also tended to use manufacturers patterns which are frequently rather safe in their designs and techneque whereas we are now exposed to a plethora of good knitting magazines andthe internet where the patterns frequently challenge our knitting skills.

So after all that the only sensible course would be to always swatch so that we end up with a fitting garment


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