# Brother versus passap



## Sanchia845

I am itching to buy a passap 6000. I own a bulky brother and the 940 mid gauge brother machines, don't get me wrong, I love them, but the passap looks like a lot of fun and I like the idea that it has built in patterns. I have not managed to master using the knitnleader yet, and find it too much extra fiddling. I'm wondering whether I should hold out to find a brother 270 or go for the 6000 package. Can anyone help me?

I also have ribbers for my brothers so the double bed thing is not the incentive for me to get a passap.


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## KateWood

I am told the passap e6000 is capable of knitting much more elaborate stitch patterns than the brother machines. I heard it can knit patterns in its tubular/circular knitting, on the side of the fabric knit on the back bed, the brother only knits plain or striped stockinette in circular. Passap also can tuck stitches for more rows than the brother machines are capable of tucking. Its very slightly higher than standard guage, 5 mm, allows for better knitting with dk weight yarn...It is not a bulky 9mm like the KH270.
I know a Passap owner who happily states it is a far superior KM. You have to become familiar with its capabilities then decide if more elaborate stitch patterns in are important to you And if you want to knit bulky or finer.


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## susieknitter

I craved a Passap/Pfaff 6000 machine and was so excited when I finally got one. I pick things up fairly quickly and will persevere until I have mastered whatever I want to do.
I hated that machine, it stood on one side of my craft room with my Brother 970 on the other. Going through the door and looking at the two machines it was like choosing to knit on the Brother or do a big, big, big pile of ironing.
The fabric that the Passap/Pfaff produces is probably the best that you will ever get from a domestic machine; you can use the fine industrial yarns, single thread, and produce a really nice fabric. Having said this I found the machine complicated, heavy, slow and very temperamental.The pushers at the back of the ribber bed were a nightmare for me to bring out and the garment device [Form Computer] is quite basic. You also have to use design cards for your own stitch patterns, ok for some, but I prefer to be able to type my patterns in. That machine just had to go!!!
The Brother KH970 standard gauge machine is, in my opinion, so much easier to use. This has a garment design program that is not as restrictive as the Passap/Pfaff. In my opinion the Brother KH970 is the best machine that was ever made - quickly followed by the KH965i which I also own. The 970 only pips the 965i because it has the garment design program.
Hope this information helps you. If you have a Passap/Pfaff you may be a whiz on it, but the only person that I have known that loved her Passap only ever did squares and then cut and sewed.
Sue.


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## jmburk

I have an E6000 (since summer) and love it.The double bed on it does much more than just ribbing. I like double bed designs without the floats on back. I'm not very advanced yet but working on it. I like telling it what design I want to use and it does it (assuming I told it correctly like any computer). Good luck with your decision.


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## roseknit

The Passap is a lot different to othe machines, and can do a lot more patterns I have not tried one yet though.


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## euvid

I have a Passap duo 80 but wish I had the 6000. WHen I bought mine the 6000 being sold were going for too much $ for me to spend. Now I see a lot of them for not much more than I paid for the 80. 
THe Passaps give the finest knitting out there. THey do Jacquard so you don't see the floats. THere is a woman in CHicago who makes beautiful clothing as well as making Afgans.She thinks as do others who know how to use their machines, that it is the best one made out there. THe knits look like the very expensive clothing line St. Johns. There are some good videos on You Tube and DVD's to be bought that teach you how to use it.
It is a true double bed. Unlike using a Brother or other Japanese machine with a ribber, when you want to knit on the main bed, the bed closest to you is the main bed so you don't have to reachover the ribber. It doesn't use weights.

If you are looking for a Brother 270 I know someone who will be selling hers in January. $1,000 for the machine with ribber in excellent condition. You can contact me privately if interested. But it would be for pick up in the CHicago area.


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## chickkie

I LOVE my Passap duo80. I have used Japanese knitting machines for years, and finally found a Passap at a thrift store so after a lot of cleaning and restoring, I have a wonderful knitting machine. I will gladly sell my Brother and Singer machines but will keep the Passap as long as I have room for it. 

I love the stitch patterns it will do without using punch cards.

If you are having trouble getting your pushers out of the rail, maybe a cleaning project would help. My machine was so dirty when I bought it that I didn't know what color it was.


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## ksojerio

There is a notable difference in appearance of a stitch knitted on a Passap vs Brother. Apassap stitch is more circular or round. A Brother stitch is "v" shaped.

I prefer the Brother.


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## Ingried

I have both Brother and Passap (an older Model), like both but if I did not have as many machines as I do the Passap 6000
would be my next one.
To me the Passap is the Rolce Royce of knitting machines.
My Passap knitted items are the most professional looking.


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## mopgenorth

I've had my Passap 6000 for 16 years I absolutely love it. I also have had Brother/Knitking electronic machines (standard and bulky) but I very much prefer my Passap.


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## euvid

Anyone in the CHicago area willing to teach someone on the use of the Duo 80? My teacher at FIne Line is not familiar with the Passaps.


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## susieknitter

Sorry if I have offended any one that has a Passap/Pfaff machine by saying that I didn't like mine. I think that maybe, if it had been my first/only machine, then I would have persevered more with it. The machine had been completely cleaned and oiled but I still found it heavy, having arthritis could have been an added problem here though. I must still state that I much prefer the garment program in the Brother 970 and the fact that it doesn't use Mylar sheets. There are as many built in patterns in the 970 as there are in the Passap. Some of these patterns are lace and if my memory serves me correctly, there are no lace patterns in the Passap. I do double bed Fairisle on the Brother and therefore have no problem with floats. I do agree that the Passap fabric is very nice but I think that there are pluses and minuses with both machines. I have always said that, if the manufactures of all machines had got together and pooled their ideas, we would have one super duper machine that would please everyone.I wish I had known that so many people like the Passap E6000. One lovely old lady at our knitting club, who is brilliant on her Brother machine, gave her Passap E600, complete with motor, away. Maybe when she asked if I wanted it, I should have said yes, and had another bash at using one. I can relate to any one being offended by me saying that I don't like the Passap. This is because I had a machine I was cleaning, set up in my kitchen, when a friend visited. She stared at it repulsed and said "God isn't it an ugly, horrid thing". I was horror struck; it was like she was referring to one of my children, so again I will say, "I'm sorry to those with Passaps".


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## mopgenorth

susieknitter said:


> Sorry if I have offended any one that has a Passap/Pfaff machine by saying that I didn't like mine. I think that maybe, if it had been my first/only machine, then I would have persevered more with it. The machine had been completely cleaned and oiled but I still found it heavy, having arthritis could have been an added problem here though. I must still state that I much prefer the garment program in the Brother 970 and the fact that it doesn't use Mylar sheets. There are as many built in patterns in the 970 as there are in the Passap. Some of these patterns are lace and if my memory serves me correctly, there are no lace patterns in the Passap. I do double bed Fairisle on the Brother and therefore have no problem with floats. I do agree that the Passap fabric is very nice but I think that there are pluses and minuses with both machines. I have always said that, if the manufactures of all machines had got together and pooled their ideas, we would have one super duper machine that would please everyone.I wish I had known that so many people like the Passap E6000. One lovely old lady at our knitting club, who is brilliant on her Brother machine, gave her Passap E600, complete with motor, away. Maybe when she asked if I wanted it, I should have said yes, and had another bash at using one. I can relate to any one being offended by me saying that I don't like the Passap. This is because I had a machine I was cleaning, set up in my kitchen, when a friend visited. She stared at it repulsed and said "God isn't it an ugly, horrid thing". I was horror struck; it was like she was referring to one of my children, so again I will say, "I'm sorry to those with Passaps".


Goodness Susie - no apology is necessary. Everyone is entitled to their preferences - Although I do both machine knitting and "real" (two needle) knitting, I have been critisized in the past for "cheating" by using my machines. I enjoy both - the same as sometimes I enjoy fine dining and other times I just want a cheeseburger. There are some foods I can't get enough of and some I can definitely live without (and others that I believe God made a mistake!) - I personally was not offended by any of your comments - the whole point of this forum is to share information, ideas, thoughts, opinions - that is how we learn and grow. A good example is doing lace on a machine - I agree wholeheartedly that the passap would not be my first choice for doing lace work - however, lace is way at the bottom of my knitting pattern choices - but for someone who loves to make lace projects, the passap would definitely be a deterrant - it all depends on how you look at it! As long as YOU are enjoying whatever you are doing/making - that is all that counts - and if we can learn for you and vice versa - well that's just frosting!


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## Ingried

There is a reason for machine knitters having a number of different machines. Each one offers something to our liking.
I started with the Passap and when it comes to pattern knitting
as well as very fine knits. it is my favorite by far.
I am not big on lace knitting.
When kitting bulky the Brother KH 260 is a fabulous workhorse.
For hand-manipulating patterns and colors I go to my Passap
Vario.
For Children's garments I usually turn to the Brother KH 910.
They all have their special place.
Would love to have a Passap E6000. Perhaps some day.


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## craftsby

i owned a passap duo 80 many years ago, it wa given to me with no uinstructions , but i managed to use it and knit some lovely items on it , but it had an accident after my ex husband dropped while storing it away , it was beyond repaire i now own a brother 836 with ribbing attatchment , its a good machine and knits lovely but the passap was far more superior on the rib if i had the chance and luck i would get another, after using a passap machine its like the rolls royce of knitting machines


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## euvid

Nice to know you learned to use it without instructions. 
I have to start playing with mine after the holdiays when there is no pressure. I've been knitting a lot of beautiful scarves for everyone and am almost done.


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## MarieDe

I believe the Passap can ONLY do doubleknits, isn't that true? Whereas, with a single bed Brother you get a singleknit fabric, and if you have a Brother w/ribber you have the doubleknit capability - choice is up to you, not the machines. I like to do cables and hand-manipulated stitches on both my Brothers (930 and 260) which I'm not all that sure you can do on a Passap without a tremendous amount of work - if at all. Not sure if you can even do knit/purl patterns, like a Brother w/a Gcarriage. If you like the look of cables/twists/looped up patterns (such as Rickie Munstock's quick cable patterns) then it might be to your advantage to stick w/a Brother/Singer/Knitking. Just saying


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## euvid

Not true. You can use 1 or both beds.


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## MarieDe

ah, I stand corrected. I used to know a knitting machine shop owner and she had a lot of Passaps in her shop, but I only ever saw her do doubleknits. Thanks for letting me know..much appreciated.


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## susieknitter

On the E6000 you can separate the two beds and use just the front to do single knitting. As the knitting is behind the bed though, I don't know whether you would manage to do magic cables that well as it is hard to see that many rows down in order to pick up the tucks. I like to be able to see if there are any mistakes in the patterning, dropped stitches, looped wool etc as I knit and I found this a problem.


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## Irish maggie

Correct me if i am wrong,but i was told they are not making Passap any more,and you cant get the parts ??


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## susieknitter

They have not made the Passap/Pfaff for a number of years. The parts are hard to come by and do fetch quite a tidy sum. Although Brother have not been made for some time there are more parts available. I do have some strippers, tools and books that belong to a Passap these I may put up for sale in the new year if anyone is interested.


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## Irish maggie

They make Brother in Japan i have bought 2 machines and they both have the Brother label on them


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## susieknitter

Brother stopped making their machines some years ago. A new company have apparently started making them but only some models of the punch card machines so I was told. Maybe they will branch out and start doing the electronics soon, we can only hope.


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## Linda S

Irish maggie said:


> Correct me if i am wrong,but i was told they are not making Passap any more,and you cant get the parts ??


You can try: www.passapcanada.com
to find Passaps and parts. I believe it has been run by the man who was with the Passap Co. when it was still making machines.


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## Linda S

What you say is so true. Each machine has it's own "personality" and capabilities. I was a production knitter with my own line of jackets which I made on the Passap - I had 2 DM-80s and the E-6, and they did make very professional garments. I also have 2 Brother machines - and for my own personal knitting, I enjoy knitting on those. One thing I would caution - for those who are used to the lighter Japanese machines - The Passap can be exhausting to push if you are doing much knitting! I would break a sweat and my heart-rate went up when using the Passap! I recommend that you get a motor if you are contemplating a Passap - unless you are very fit, or under 30!As a production knitter in the 90s, I had to phone Passap in Salt Lake City on a near weekly basis to get help in fixing glitches in my machines. A non-production person wouldn't have that need so often, I would guess - but still - if you needed help, who would you turn to?Many Passap production knitters had to reconsider their businesses when they realized they couldn't get their machines repaired anymore. So sad- I keep hoping they will make a comeback.


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## digoer

I owned a Passap duo 80. When I looked at it my 1st impulse was to toss it. I had no instruction, and in 2 years I made 1 hat. Which my late husband cherished. 17 years later i found my Brother 940, and then I bought a 260. I am new but have made more than a hat. I really like it. Much easier to work with and lots more info for it, and my arm does not feel like it is detached after knitting.


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## Linda S

digoer said:


> I owned a Passap duo 80. When I looked at it my 1st impulse was to toss it. I had no instruction, and in 2 years I made 1 hat. Which my late husband cherished. 17 years later i found my Brother 940, and then I bought a 260. I am new but have made more than a hat. I really like it. Much easier to work with and lots more info for it, and my arm does not feel like it is detached after knitting.


Wow - you made that hat the hard way - no directions on using the Passap machine!! How did you do it!! A friend told me once that anyone who doesn't have a motor for their Passap has to be a masochist! It is pretty hard to push - no wonder your arm felt detached!
I think the best way to learn a machine is to start a knitting machine club - that's a good way to get help, provided at least one person knows how to operate one!


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## rjaknit

When I used Brother, Studio, and Passap machines, I loved the Passap the best. It performed many 'tricks' the others could not do. What fun... I enjoyed all my machines, but had to give them up after 20 years of machine knitting. I had motors for all the machines - what clatter when all three of them were working, and I was using my 'bulky' machine at the same time!!
Ruth J.
(rjaknit)


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## iiwoody

Hello,
Being a brother & knitking dealer I found that I was intrigued by the Passap. I would go to a shop in the Milwaukee area called Dot's. The owner there, Bea, was a wiz on the passap. The afghans she would pull off there were nothing less than fabulous. Because of the pushers, you were able to achieve patterns none of the Japanese machines could duplicate. I finally bought a Passap DM80, never took it out of the box. I then bought the electronic. The first thing you HAVE to do is disregard any knitting machine knowledge such as the symbols. Passap's symbols mean very different things from the Japanese symbols. The arrow was my biggest downfall so was the diagram showing pushers in work, at rest and out of work. Looking at it and knowing what I thought things meant were two different things. Once I cleared my head of this, the passap was a dream. Sometimes a headache, but what machine isn't? Thanks to this forum, I finally dragged my 6000 out of the attic and set it up. It's been sitting in the box for 12 years! After going over it and cleaning it, doing minor maintenance, I will start using it again. Do you know how much knowledge you lose in 12 years? The book may as well have been in French, I will be starting from square one. I know it will be worth it and I will post as soon as I take something off of this "beast" for now. I don't do sweaters anymore as they are cheaper to buy than I could ever knit, but afghans are my biggest love. Wishing all, a Happy, Healthy & Prosperous New Year!


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## Linda S

Yes, there is a definite difference in learning the Passap when you were a person who learned on the Japanese machines first! I had a Passap instructor who kept telling me to punch the "error" button - I couldn't FIND the error button! I finally figured out she was saying "Arrow" button. TeeHee! I thought there was a button that automatically corrected "errors"!! Wouldn't that have been great!


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## mopgenorth

iiwoody said:


> Hello,
> Being a brother & knitking dealer I found that I was intrigued by the Passap. I would go to a shop in the Milwaukee area called Dot's. The owner there, Bea, was a wiz on the passap. The afghans she would pull off there were nothing less than fabulous. Because of the pushers, you were able to achieve patterns none of the Japanese machines could duplicate. I finally bought a Passap DM80, never took it out of the box. I then bought the electronic. The first thing you HAVE to do is disregard any knitting machine knowledge such as the symbols. Passap's symbols mean very different things from the Japanese symbols. The arrow was my biggest downfall so was the diagram showing pushers in work, at rest and out of work. Looking at it and knowing what I thought things meant were two different things. Once I cleared my head of this, the passap was a dream. Sometimes a headache, but what machine isn't? Thanks to this forum, I finally dragged my 6000 out of the attic and set it up. It's been sitting in the box for 12 years! After going over it and cleaning it, doing minor maintenance, I will start using it again. Do you know how much knowledge you lose in 12 years? The book may as well have been in French, I will be starting from square one. I know it will be worth it and I will post as soon as I take something off of this "beast" for now. I don't do sweaters anymore as they are cheaper to buy than I could ever knit, but afghans are my biggest love. Wishing all, a Happy, Healthy & Prosperous New Year!


You are absolutely right! When I bought my E6000 in 1994, the dealer wouldn't even plug it in until she taught me everything - she used it as if it were a DM80 - that way I understood what the machine was doing and why and how to make it perform the way I wanted it to. After I learned the basics of using a Passap, I was then able to learn and use all the whistles and bells to my best advantage. Starting at the beginning was the best advice I could have gotten.

Happy New Year!


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## Scrappycajun

Would you be able to advise the best way to clean my M201? I recently purchased this machine and would very much like to use it. Tg gritty sound when moving the lock reflects the amount of dust, dirt in the channels. 
Also have a friend looking for a dogmatic 80 if you happen to know of any for sale. Or any passap.


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## ruthann1942

Have you checked Craig's List? You can find just about anything for sale there but you have to keep looking until you find it. It can take a little time.


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## classixuk

I know this is an old thread, but it came up while I was googling.

I'm in a real quandary, as I need to 'lose' some of my machines - I just don't have room.

The Passap is simply an incredible machine. If it did transfer lace as easily as the Brother, I would literally sell every other machine I own other than the KX-395 plastic single bed and the Passap.

But it doesn't. It does everything else in a far more superior way, but (similarly to the Brother the KH-230, 260 and 270) it doesn't come with a lace carriage.

It comes with a transfer carriage that can transfer from front bed to back bed, and back again (whoop whoop, as my Brother machines only do that in one direction) but I have problems trusting any of them when it comes to Shetland lace, which I make with very fine 1 ply yarn on a Brother 950i using the lace carriage.

If I didn't occasionally make Shetland lace, I think it would be me and the Passap for life. But whilst I need to make lace, I'll be keeping an electronic Brother nearby, just in case! I could do the exact same Shetland lace on the Passap using the transfer carriage, but it would take longer.  

So I guess writing this post has helped to decide, the only 3 machines I need to keep are my Passap e6000, my Brother 950i and my Brother KX-395.

The rest can go - Brother KH-260 with Ribber, Brother KX-350 and Brother KH-891 punchcard.

Now here's the question...do I keep the Hague Linkers?


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## Pealark

I would like to correct one other thing on the "I dont like my Passap" post. The Passap easily does cross-bed lace. This is not lateral transfer that we all know from hand knitting. Basically it is an enlarged area between the stitches in pattern. You need a U100 (or 80) to do it. 
At least the transfer carriage is reliable. (my Superba does lace exactly this way too). 

When I was younger I really preferred this type of lace. I could get more air thru the fabric & still have a mostly opaque fabric to hide bra, lumps etc. Nowdays Im not as warm natured. 

The Passap can also be forced to do lateral transfer, but its more trouble than its worth. You transfer the stitches to the 2nd bed, rack & then transfer them back. If you want transfers going the other way, you have to reset pusher & repeat racking the other direction. 4 transfers & 2 needle selections then 2 knit rows. Not worth it.

I do prefer my Passap to my Superba (but the Superba does better jacquard). & my Toyota 901. Samples of double bed fabrics laid side by side & the Passap wins. But the other machines are easier to learn & easier to push. And they do lateral transfer lace & single bed slip better. Dont even try single bed fairisle on a Passap (but many soft supple double bed fairisles can be made). 

And tuck lace (see passap guipure lace) is super easy & super beautiful on the Passap.


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## jude3602

This is off the topic a bit, but can you point me to a Shetland lace pattern? I'd love to see/try it!


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## Rita in Raleigh

How is Shetland lace different from regular lace on our knitting machines? Do you want the pattern for a Passap or a Silver Reed or a Brother machine.
There are lots of lace patterns for knitting machines on Ravelry. Just search for LACE then click on machine knitting.



jude3602 said:


> This is off the topic a bit, but can you point me to a Shetland lace pattern? I'd love to see/try it!


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## jude3602

Rita in Raleigh said:


> How is Shetland lace different from regular lace on our knitting machines? Do you want the pattern for a Passap or a Silver Reed or a Brother machine.
> There are lots of lace patterns for knitting machines on Ravelry. Just search for LACE then click on machine knitting.


I use brother mid-gauge. And yes, how is it different?


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## classixuk

jude3602 said:


> I use brother mid-gauge. And yes, how is it different?


Hi Jude,

You might find Shetland lace on your Brother mid-gauge a bit difficult, due to the fact you'll need more needles and a finer ply of yarn.

Here's my own pattern of Shetland lace being blocked recently - this was done on a standard Brother machine and in 1 ply yarn.

On a Passap (to keep with the topic), I would have used the transfer carriage rather than the lace carriage, and possibly considered 'drive lace' to speed things up overall.

But when you own both machines, you can run to the Brother for faster/superior lace and single bed fairisle, and the Passap for superior everything else.

The 2 are completely different. Like salt and vinegar.

If you (or anyone reading this) are ever in a position to own both a Brother (or other Japanese single bed) as well as a Passap, I'd highly advise owning both. They open up 100% of the opportunities in machine knitting between them.

Hope this helped?
Chris


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## jude3602

Wow... That's amazing.


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