# Selling FOs from my Free Patterns



## knitabitcrochetaway (Jan 4, 2014)

I found out last night that someone is selling finished objects on Etsy using my free pattern and I'm not sure how I feel about it. I post free patterns because I want to share my creativity with the world, as so many others have done for me. However, I don't expect others to be making a profit off of my ideas. I suppose I could start selling patterns or copyrighting them, but I still want to share with my fellow knitters. Has anyone ever experienced this dilemma?


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## Aunt DD (Sep 9, 2014)

Not me, I'm not clever or talented enough to make up my own patterns.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

it is hard to police that. If you don't have any limitations on your pattern then they are not doing anything wrong


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## impatient knitter (Oct 5, 2011)

knitabitcrochetaway said:


> I found out last night that someone is selling finished objects on Etsy using my free pattern and I'm not sure how I feel about it. I post free patterns because I want to share my creativity with the world, as so many others have done for me. However, I don't expect others to be making a profit off of my ideas. I suppose I could start selling patterns or copyrighting them, but I still want to share with my fellow knitters. Has anyone ever experienced this dilemma?


Someone just posted this same topic yesterday. Apparently this is being done on ebay, as well. I guess it all depends on what a person's interpretation of the word "free" is. Personally, I wouldn't sell ANYthing I make because I don't do it for that reason. I knit and crochet because I enjoy the process. If someone has to "profit" from the work of others, they have more problems than we probably know about. Best to just feel sorry for them. If their "friends" knew about it, they most like wouldn't approve, either.


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## hilltopper (Jul 16, 2014)

Folks are not to sell your patterns. They can sell what they make from them. You have no proprietary rights in what is made from your patterns, only in the patterns themselves. Free of for a price.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

When you design a pattern and release it, you have no control over what is created or done with anything made from your pattern.

You only control the pattern itself. 

Even if you sell your pattern (instead of giving for free), anyone can do anything with the item made using your pattern.

In fact, the person can sell the ONE pattern, too, they legally bought from you.


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## ICE (May 4, 2011)

knitabitcrochetaway said:


> I found out last night that someone is selling finished objects on Etsy using my free pattern and I'm not sure how I feel about it. I post free patterns because I want to share my creativity with the world, as so many others have done for me. However, I don't expect others to be making a profit off of my ideas. I suppose I could start selling patterns or copyrighting them, but I still want to share with my fellow knitters. Has anyone ever experienced this dilemma?


Feel your frustration! I used to do the same, posting a picture of the clothes I knitted for my grandchildren. Then one day I found the same patterns on Etsy Shops for sale. At first I was furious that someone "dared" to take MY pattern and sell it for $8.00 and up. Then I realized these persons are just common criminals, thieves, and only worthy of my deepest contempt!
I NO longer post FREE patterns nor the pictures on this Forum.
ICE in NJ

FYI : some of the people on this site "might" consider these "actions" flattery. Stealing IS stealing, no matter whether you call it need or flattery.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

impatient knitter said:


> Someone just posted this same topic yesterday. Apparently this is being done on ebay, as well.


That topic is about someone Selling Copies Of Patterns, not the finished items made as being described here.
Big Difference.


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## onegrannygoose (May 13, 2011)

There are two ways to look at that. 1. you can be upset and angry about the use of your pattern. 2. you can be happy that someone thinks your pattern is worth copying and selling the finished product after all they did take the time and effort to translate your pattern into a beautiful item. 
You made the pattern and gave it away free because you wanted it to be used. Personally I would feel flattered that my pattern was that well thought of.

Even copy write patterns are not preventing from someone making the pattern and once they make it its theirs


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

hilltopper said:


> Folks are not to sell your patterns. They can sell what they make from them. You have no proprietary rights is what is made from your patterns, only in the patterns themselves. Free or for a price.


:thumbup:


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> When you design a pattern and release it, you have no control over what is created or done with anything made from your pattern.
> 
> You only control the pattern itself.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

onegrannygoose said:


> There are two ways to look at that. 1. you can be upset and angry about the use of your pattern. 2. you can be happy that someone thinks your pattern is worth copying and selling the finished product after all they did take the time and effort to translate your pattern into a beautiful item.
> You made the pattern and gave it away free because you wanted it to be used. Personally I would feel flattered that my pattern was that well thought of.


Actually you need to read up on Copyright Laws.

How we as an individual may feel about the "worth" or "exposure" of someone's copyrighted work -
does not play one ioda into the laws of copyright.


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## cah (Oct 2, 2014)

The person selling the FO is not doing anything wrong. It doesn't matter if it's a free or paid pattern, or even if you put restrictions on the pattern. If you want to change the laws, write to your congressman.

You can't be sure they're even using your pattern unless you ask, and they don't have to answer. They could have written their own (reverse engineering) or be using some other pattern that looks the same. All perfectly legal.


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## hilltopper (Jul 16, 2014)

I think calling people who make items from patterns - or pictures - found online criminals and thieves is very strong! and very wrong! Please read up on the applicable law.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

cah said:


> The person selling the FO is not doing anything wrong. It doesn't matter if it's a free or paid pattern, or even if you put restrictions on the pattern. If you want to change the laws, write to your congressman.
> 
> You can't be sure they're even using your pattern unless you ask, and they don't have to answer. They could have written their own (reverse engineering) or be using some other pattern that looks the same. All perfectly legal.


:thumbup:


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## Cyndiek (Aug 16, 2014)

I love your response! I think, as fellow knitters, we should be flattered anytime someone compliments our work--and imitation is the greatest compliment.


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## Shirley Ray (Mar 3, 2011)

Once a person obtains your pattern (free or otherwise), which in this case that you have freely given, it is theirs to use as they see fit. They certainly should be able to make things from it. If you didn't want them to do that, why did you share the pattern? Why would they bother obtaining it if it can't be used?

I get copyrighted music for my dulcimer free at workshops from the author. I can perform it as many times as I want, I just can't give the printed copy to individuals or club members if the writer has asked me not to whether it was given to me freely or bought. If music is not the writer's livelihood I am usually told to share it with anyone who wants it. When I get it free from the Internet, there are no restrictions.

If you put it out there for us, obviously you are proud of the pattern. Why not be proud that the recipient liked it so much she makes it repeatedly. If the finished product is selling that well, take it off the free list, make it yourself and sell it.


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## bagibird (Sep 30, 2012)

knitabitcrochetaway said:


> I found out last night that someone is selling finished objects on Etsy using my free pattern and I'm not sure how I feel about it. I post free patterns because I want to share my creativity with the world, as so many others have done for me. However, I don't expect others to be making a profit off of my ideas. I suppose I could start selling patterns or copyrighting them, but I still want to share with my fellow knitters. Has anyone ever experienced this dilemma?


Provided that your pattern is not being sold, I don't think there is anything you can do. The profit being made by selling a finished item is a result of the other person's time and effort in making the item. They have taken nothing from you. Even if you had charged for the pattern, as long as they were not selling copies of your pattern, you have lost nothing.

I don't know the pattern you have made available free of charge, but I would just like to add my thanks to you and all the generous and talented designers who share their work for free. There are many people who would not be able to follow their hobbies without such generosity.


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## impatient knitter (Oct 5, 2011)

galaxycraft said:


> That topic is about someone Selling Copies Of Patterns, not the finished items made as being described here.
> Big Difference.


I stand corrected!! Please forgive me. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa!


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

hilltopper said:


> Folks are not to sell your patterns. They can sell what they make from them. You have no proprietary rights in what is made from your patterns, only in the patterns themselves. Free of for a price.


That's what I thought, too. I always understood that what was being copyrighted was the _words_, not the design.

But under certain conditions copyright can cover items made from the pattern that are being sold.

But you need to put something saying that's not OK on your copyright notice. If I understand it correctly, if you didn't do that, you have no recourse.

You did put a copyright notice on your pattern, didn't you? It's copyrighted even if you didn't put the notice on the pattern, but your rights are better protected if you did.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

Designers that try to control how many items are made or sold from their patterns are being unrealistic.

putting a copyright notice on the pattern only means the pattern itself is copyrighted, not the finished article.


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## Mar1e (Mar 31, 2015)

I have a legal document that states that the pattern itself is yours once printed/written that is your copyright on the design/pattern/template. It is considered yours. However, if you sell/give your pattern to others and they follow your design/pattern/template and make an object from it the time, effort and quality of handy work is theirs, not yours anymore. They can keep it or give it to a family member to enjoy, they can sell the product/object for whatever price they see fit...it is not illegal to sell workmanship that you have made! 

Myself, I follow patterns bought or free, I always always include the designers name in my created item but I am not a pattern maker and just love love the fact that people can come up with these awesome designs so I am proud of their hard work and effort. The free patterns I see many of, and these people share for the very fact they want to share with the world their written ideas! I would not be peeved but I would send a strong PS stating please feature you the designer on items for sale!


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

impatient knitter said:


> I stand corrected!! Please forgive me. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa!


Quite Alright. ;-) :thumbup:


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## ICE (May 4, 2011)

To all of you who say taking a pattern that is given FREE is flattery and just:

1.It is flattery only, if they ask permission to use this pattern with or without your name, and sell it for profit. 

2.When someone takes that same pattern, sells it as their own, and make profit from this pattern, it is wrong and unethical.


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## dragonfly7673 (May 13, 2014)

ICE said:


> To all of you who say taking a pattern that is given FREE is flattery and just:
> 
> 1.It is flattery only, if they ask permission to use this pattern with or without your name, and sell it for profit.
> 
> 2.When someone takes that same pattern, sells it as their own, and make profit from this pattern, it is wrong and unethical.


They are NOT selling the pattern. They are selling finished objects they made using the pattern (assuming it's the same one and not a similar item).


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## PapillonThreads (Mar 23, 2012)

I'm sure the person selling these items are not getting rich.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

PapillonThreads said:


> I'm sure the person selling these items are not getting rich.


That is not the point.
In regards to a copyrighted pattern (for which this is not the topic of discussion), selling copies is illegal - 
above the sale of the original pattern a person holds in their possession --- even then they can not keep a copy.

Items made from a pattern can indeed be sold - the topic of this discussion.

This could have also been just a person selling an obligated consignment that fell through.


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

galaxycraft said:


> That is not the point.
> In regards to a copyrighted pattern (for which this is not), selling copies is illegal -
> above the sale of the original pattern a person holds in their possession --- even then they can not keep a copy.
> 
> ...


Anything that's written and published, including the quote above is copyrighted. You don't even have to put a copyright notice on it.

So what makes you think that this pattern is not copyrighted?

It needs to be over 150 years old for it to even begin to have a chance that the copyright is no longer in force, and can be copyrighted (under some conditions) for even longer than that.

If anybody said that this was _not_ copyrighted, I missed it, but it's highly unlikely.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

lostarts said:


> Anything that's written and published, including the quote above is copyrighted. You don't even have to put a copyright notice on it.
> 
> So what makes you think that this pattern is not copyrighted?
> 
> ...


Sorry I meant the topic is not about the actual pattern itself -- but items made from it.
Hence the rest of the response.

But- I have edited my post to clarify. ;-)

This topic is about the finished item being sold --- Not The Pattern being sold.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Again folks ---
*This topic is about the finished item being sold --- Not The Pattern being sold.*


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## ICE (May 4, 2011)

dragonfly7673 said:


> They are NOT selling the pattern. They are selling finished objects they made using the pattern (assuming it's the same one and not a similar item).


PLEASE! If nobody sells patterns than a lot of us have binders full of finished items???????????????????????????????????


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## ICE (May 4, 2011)

PapillonThreads said:


> I'm sure the person selling these items are not getting rich.


NOT the point. It is taking something that is free AND putting YOUR name on it AND selling it for profit....WRONG!


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

ICE said:


> PLEASE! If nobody sells patterns than a lot of us have binders full of finished items???????????????????????????????????


Re-read the original post ---- The Finished Item (Not The Pattern) Is Being Discussed.
This topic is about the finished item being sold --- Not The Pattern being sold.


knitabitcrochetaway said:


> I found out last night that someone is selling finished objects on Etsy using my free pattern and I'm not sure how I feel about it. I post free patterns because I want to share my creativity with the world, as so many others have done for me. However, I don't expect others to be making a profit off of my ideas. I suppose I could start selling patterns or copyrighting them, but I still want to share with my fellow knitters. Has anyone ever experienced this dilemma?


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

ICE said:


> NOT the point. It is taking something that is free AND putting YOUR name on it AND selling it for profit....WRONG!


this thread is about selling a finished item, not the pattern. If I make one of your patterns up and sell it, that is not wrong. If I take your pattern and sell the pattern it is wrong.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

ICE said:


> NOT the point. It is taking something that is free AND putting YOUR name on it AND selling it for profit....WRONG!


That is not what is happening.
Someone is selling a finished item.

As The OP has NOT stated or given a link --- we do not know WHAT was in the ad, now do we?


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## ICE (May 4, 2011)

galaxycraft said:


> Again folks ---
> *This topic is about the finished item being sold --- Not The Pattern being sold.*


Please read my post and make the CORRECT interpretation. 
It is ALL about the PATTERNS and NOT about the finished items.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

ICE said:


> Please read my post and make the CORRECT interpretation.
> It is ALL about the PATTERNS and NOT about the finished items.


:roll: :roll: Outta here ----


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

ICE said:


> Please read my post and make the CORRECT interpretation.
> It is ALL about the PATTERNS and NOT about the finished items.


which is not what this thread is about


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## onegrannygoose (May 13, 2011)

galaxycraft said:


> Actually you need to read up on Copyright Laws.
> 
> How we as an individual may feel about the "worth" or "exposure" of someone's copyrighted work -
> does not play one ioda into the laws of copyright.


I don't understand your response to my post. Please explain.


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## disgo (Mar 2, 2013)

And what are those congressman doing with your concerns from their constituencies? Why sitting in unmarked conference areas, with no electronic devices allowed all figuring out the language for TPP which some speculate will make changes to all participants in signing the treaty subject to different copyright laws. Why? As just like all the clucking going on in the news media, they have surmised that it will be a way to stop China's practices.

The one commenter made a good point. We all need to take into consideration the complete topic and quit squabbling over the details. It is PROFIT.

Why are you making sock patterns for example when it now has been shown Viet Nam can make a sock for 56 cents in labor costs while in Made In America at its lowest is over $10.

Everyone seems to have forgotten the outsourcing, third wave etc. (rarely hear that anymore since it became like simply mentioning GMO) so have moved onto other forms of expression that the Chinese have taken and run with.

They too are not continuing to make massive profits and like all business or commodities the pendulum swings and all the cards come tumbling down.

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall. Humpty Dumpty had a great fall. All the academia economists and the nefarious politicians/leaders couldn't put Humpty Dumpty on track again.


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## hilltopper (Jul 16, 2014)

Has nothing to do with flattery I.C.E. You only own the printed piece, not the items made from the directions on it. People must not sell copies of your printed pattern. Nothing at all to do with the items made from it.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

We are talking about ONE Person putting a finished item on Etsy for sale.

Not the almighty dollar and what congress has to say about free trade and such.

OMG - this one person outsourced to a third world country to product that one item. Hilarious assumption. 
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## taiyaki (Feb 1, 2015)

Ditto


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## taiyaki (Feb 1, 2015)

ditto, hilltopper


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## Mar1e (Mar 31, 2015)

An Elder once told me that, "when he speaks his idea's in his mind to other's and sharing these ideas are a gift to be given and shared forward." quoted from Elder Harry Windego... that a person must always always share who the original idea came from to honor them. 

The same goes for patterns out of courtesy and respect, many people build on those ideas and make changes to the original pattern, once changed the pattern written with significant changes is now theirs, however...it is courtesy to state that the inspiration came from this originating individual. And there is no law saying otherwise unless it is an exact copy of said pattern/design, that is unethical but it does happen and not a single case has gone to court over copyright pattern/designs.

And far as the conversation goes, a person can make a statement about the patterns, copyright patterns, laws, congress etc., it goes with a line of thinking out of thoughts that come when someone posts such a rant, if you cluster many peoples thoughts several of these kinds of ideas come up, unless your the conversation police, but to ridicule others for their input is just terribly mean and that is a reflection on you who does that to another. Just saying.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Mar1e said:


> The same goes for patterns out of courtesy and respect, many people build on those ideas and make changes to the original pattern, once changed the pattern written with significant changes is now theirs,
> however...it is courtesy to state that the inspiration came from this originating individual.
> 
> And there is no law saying otherwise unless it is an exact copy of said pattern/design,


http://copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html#howmuch
How much of someone else's work can I use without getting permission?

Under the fair use doctrine of the U.S. copyright statute, it is permissible to use limited portions of a work including quotes, for purposes such as commentary, criticism, news reporting, and scholarly reports. 
There are no legal rules permitting the use of a specific number of words, a certain number of musical notes, or percentage of a work. 
Whether a particular use qualifies as fair use depends on all the circumstances. See, Fair Use Index, and Circular 21, Reproductions of Copyrighted Works by Educators and Librarians.

How much do I have to change in order to claim copyright in someone else's work?

Only the owner of copyright in a work has the right to prepare, or to authorize someone else to create, a new version of that work. 
*Accordingly, you cannot claim copyright to another's work, no matter how much you change it, unless you have the owner's consent*. 
See Circular 14, Copyright Registration for Derivative Works.

http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/copyright_myths
6. If I change someone elses work I can claim it as my own

The act of copying or adapting someone elses work is a restricted act. 
*Any adaptation will be legally regarded as a derived work; so if you simply adapt the work of others, it will still be their work, and they have every right to object if publish such a work when they have not given you permission to do so. 
They are also entitled to reclaim any money you make from selling their work*.

The only safe option is to create something that is not copied or adapted from the work of others, or seek the permission of the rights owner (you should expect to pay a fee and/or royalties for this).

There is nothing to stop you being inspired by the work of others, but when it comes to your own work, start with a blank sheet and do not try to copy what others have done.

7. I can legally copy 10% without it being infringement

This is not the case. 
Unless it is explicitly allowed under fair use or fair dealing rules, any unauthorised use of copyright work can potentially lead to legal action.

When using quotes or extracts, there is no magic figure or percentage that can be applied as each case must be viewed on its own merit. 
*In cases that have come to trial what is clear is that it is the perceived importance of the copied content rather than simply the quantity that counts*.

Our advice would always be to seek permission before you use the work of others.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Mar1e said:


> An Elder once told me that, "when he speaks his idea's in his mind to other's and sharing these ideas are a gift to be given and shared forward." quoted from Elder Harry Windego... that a person must always always share who the original idea came from to honor them.


The spoken word is not copyrightable.
And native people's heritage IS to pass down information and lore and facts from one to another.
Has Nothing to do with copyrights of the world.
The concept is there to cite the source, but legally doesn't hold much water when it comes to infringements of someone's copyrights.


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## Mar1e (Mar 31, 2015)

Two different laws, not about heritage...has to do with respecting others ideas and giving simple recognition to those who deserve to be honored. I thought that wee example was obvious, and it was not be tied into copyright laws just simple respect...citing others period.


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## Saffi123 (May 15, 2015)

I think there is a simple answer to this - do not allow it. Print your copyright © (option G) right on your pattern, and state that it is free but you must make it only for yourself or a gift for another unless they have written permission from you. Your copyright follows your design, and is inherent in your design, but ask them to cease & desist & get that © on your patterns asap with the message (in the footer if you wish) to not sell products with your pattern! I see this message a lot on revelry and I believe in artist's rights.

That's my two cents - good luck!


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## Saffi123 (May 15, 2015)

well the spoken word must be copyrightable, as all of Martin Luther King's speeches are copyright protected.


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## Angela c (Dec 12, 2013)

If you have no copyright on them people can do as they wish, it does seem so wrong for them to do that.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Saffi123 said:


> well the spoken word must be copyrightable, as all of Martin Luther King's speeches are copyright protected.


The spoken word as it pertains the MLK speeches ---- they were written down. He had prepared it -- Yes copyrighted.

Spoken word --- you and joe joe having a verbal conversation, face to face --- "spoken word" - is not copyrightable.
A telephone conversation is "spoken words".
Whispering in another's ear is "spoken words".

Native peoples who speak their lores to their young --- without writing it down (spoken face to face) -- is "spoken words".
THIS is what I was referring to in my quoted response to the poster who was talking about native peoples.
Why do you think so many are now wanting to put those lores and traditions down on paper? 
Not for copyrights, but so they don't get lost forever.

Geezzz I didn't know I had to be so simplistic on so many things.
More problems to this world than I had first thought.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

Angela c said:


> If you have no copyright on them people can do as they wish, it does seem so wrong for them to do that.


what is wrong with selling something made and sold from any pattern?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Saffi123 said:


> I think there is a simple answer to this - do not allow it. Print your copyright © (option G) right on your pattern, and state that it is free but you must make it only for yourself or a gift for another unless they have written permission from you. Your copyright follows your design, and is inherent in your design, but ask them to cease & desist & get that © on your patterns asap with the message (in the footer if you wish) to not sell products with your pattern! I see this message a lot on revelry and I believe in artist's rights.
> 
> That's my two cents - good luck!


What you have written does not put any legal teeth into this discussion.

If I have or buy (legally) a pattern and make something with that pattern, I can sell, gift or trade my creation regardless if the copyright symbol appears on the written pattern. It does not matter if the symbol appears, the pattern is copyrighted the second the idea was put on paper. I do not have to give credit to the pattern designer when I make something (and sell it) from a pattern. I can, but am not legally obligated to do so.

Also, I can do anything, sell, gift, burn, eat, throw away or trade my ONE pattern at my discretion.

The only thing I cannot do is make copies or reprints of another's pattern and sell them.

It is no different than buying a sewing pattern from the big patterns companies; Simplicity, McCall's, Vogue, etc., I can make any number of items from their pattern and gift, sell, keep or trade my sewn creation. I do not have to give credit to the pattern company from where I received my pattern. I can then sell my used pattern, gift or trade it. I can NOT copy or reprint the original pattern and sell that duplicated pattern. I CAN copy the pattern if for my own use though (for example if I wish to make multiple items from the one pattern and therefore, copy the pattern pieces to use to cut out the multiples - keeping the original from damage).

You'll even see on the "big 3" pattern envelopes you cannot make and sell items using their pattern - it is an unsustainable (by a court of law) bunch of words that cannot be forced upon the purchaser of the pattern.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

chickkie said:


> what is wrong with selling something made and sold from any pattern?


nothing! :-D


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Saffi123 said:


> I think there is a simple answer to this - do not allow it. Print your copyright © (option G) right on your pattern, and state that it is free but you must make it only for yourself or a gift for another unless they have written permission from you. Your copyright follows your design, and is inherent in your design, but ask them to cease & desist & get that © on your patterns asap with the message (in the footer if you wish) to not sell products with your pattern! I see this message a lot on revelry and I believe in artist's rights.
> 
> That's my two cents - good luck!


The copyright applies to the pattern and diagrams/images only; not to any creation produced.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> The spoken word as it pertains the MLK speeches ---- they were written down. He had prepared it -- Yes copyrighted.
> 
> Spoken word --- you are joe joe having a verbal conversation, face to face --- "spoken word" - is not copyrightable.
> A telephone conversation is "spoken words".
> ...


 :-D :thumbup:


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## laceluvr (Feb 16, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> What you have written does not put any legal teeth into this discussion.
> 
> If I have or buy (legally) a pattern and make something with that pattern, I can sell, gift or trade my creation regardless if the copyright symbol appears on the written pattern. It does not matter if the symbol appears, the pattern is copyrighted the second the idea was put on paper. I do not have to give credit to the pattern designer when I make something (and sell it) from a pattern. I can, but am not legally obligated to do so.
> 
> ...


Exactly!


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## gillyc (Jul 9, 2012)

How/does this apply to the reverse engineering to produce the pattern for the delightful Princess Charlotte bonnet that I and I'm sure many others have knitted?


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

galaxycraft said:


> Sorry I meant the topic is not about the actual pattern itself -- but items made from it.
> Hence the rest of the response.
> 
> But- I have edited my post to clarify. ;-)
> ...


Sorry. I thought you were referring to the pattern, not the finished garment. The topic was the garment, but copyright was also discussed and I lost track


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

Many of the free patterns I have seen have instructions after the end of the pattern that say you are not to copy and sell the pattern but that you can sell any items you make from the pattern, but to please reference the designer's link to the pattern when you sell the item.


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## PapillonThreads (Mar 23, 2012)

knitabitcrochetaway said:


> I found out last night that someone is selling finished objects on Etsy using my free pattern and I'm not sure how I feel about it. I post free patterns because I want to share my creativity with the world, as so many others have done for me. However, I don't expect others to be making a profit off of my ideas. I suppose I could start selling patterns or copyrighting them, but I still want to share with my fellow knitters. Has anyone ever experienced this dilemma?


I understand that this would be a little upsetting.
I doubt there is much you can do about it. You could perhaps call the person out on it....it may or may not make you feel better...
Is this person actually selling that much? I know I have tinkered with selling various craft items on line....I didn't make much profit. (I know SOME people think this isn't the point). The point is...are you upset someone is making money off your generously giving your patterns for free? Because I'm betting they are not profiting enough to get upset about. If you feel upset that this person is taking credit for your design as theirs....that's a difference.


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## mombr4 (Apr 21, 2011)

chickkie said:


> what is wrong with selling something made and sold from any pattern?


absolutely nothing.


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## YarnStalker (May 30, 2011)

I found this:
http://www.creativeincomeblog.com/sell-project-using-someone-elses-pattern/


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## knitabitcrochetaway (Jan 4, 2014)

PapillonThreads said:


> I understand that this would be a little upsetting.
> I doubt there is much you can do about it. You could perhaps call the person out on it....it may or may not make you feel better...
> Is this person actually selling that much? I know I have tinkered with selling various craft items on line....I didn't make much profit. (I know SOME people think this isn't the point). The point is...are you upset someone is making money off your generously giving your patterns for free? Because I'm betting they are not profiting enough to get upset about. If you feel upset that this person is taking credit for your design as theirs....that's a difference.


Yes! Thank you for putting into words what was bothering me better than I could myself. It's not about the money because if I cared about that I wouldn't be posting all of my patterns for free. It's the fact that someone is selling finished projects from my free patterns without giving me credit, making me feel like they are taking credit for my design, too. I'm happy to see people make projects from my designs - it's pretty cool to see the subtle variations people make. But if it's directly from my design, and someone is trying to make a profit from it, it would be nice to get a mention.


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## PapillonThreads (Mar 23, 2012)

YA...I get it! I'd be miffed too! We can only hope Karma is real, and these people get a big karma kick! :XD:


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## cah (Oct 2, 2014)

knitabitcrochetaway said:


> Yes! Thank you for putting into words what was bothering me better than I could myself. It's not about the money because if I cared about that I wouldn't be posting all of my patterns for free. It's the fact that someone is selling finished projects from my free patterns without giving me credit, making me feel like they are taking credit for my design, too. I'm happy to see people make projects from my designs - it's pretty cool to see the subtle variations people make. But if it's directly from my design, and someone is trying to make a profit from it, it would be nice to get a mention.


You can ask for a mention but there's no guarantee you'd get it. The folks who buy hand knitted items don't give a hoot who designed it and they will never look you up. Only those who _make_ the items care, so if it's recognition you want, you're chasing the wrong people.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be snarky or anything. I just think you're looking in the wrong place for what you want.


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## knitabitcrochetaway (Jan 4, 2014)

cah said:


> You can ask for a mention but there's no guarantee you'd get it. The folks who buy hand knitted items don't give a hoot who designed it and they will never look you up. Only those who _make_ the items care, so if it's recognition you want, you're chasing the wrong people.
> 
> Sorry, I'm not trying to be snarky or anything. I just think you're looking in the wrong place for what you want.


It's definitely not about recognition, it's about respect for others.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

I still think that you can't tell people that they can't sell what they make from your patterns. It is only the pattern you can't sell. No matter how many copyrights you put on the pattern, there is no way to police what someone makes and what they do with it.


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## Moondancermel (Nov 18, 2012)

hilltopper said:


> Folks are not to sell your patterns. They can sell what they make from them. You have no proprietary rights in what is made from your patterns, only in the patterns themselves. Free of for a price.


This is why I ask people to reference me as the designer of the pattern.

There really is no way to stop people from making things and selling them with the exception of copyright. This covers Disney characters etc... and certain items that may show up in TV programmes like clothing. Usually if you design a look alike you will get away with it provided you don't use the name.


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## Moondancermel (Nov 18, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> What you have written does not put any legal teeth into this discussion.
> 
> If I have or buy (legally) a pattern and make something with that pattern, I can sell, gift or trade my creation regardless if the copyright symbol appears on the written pattern. It does not matter if the symbol appears, the pattern is copyrighted the second the idea was put on paper. I do not have to give credit to the pattern designer when I make something (and sell it) from a pattern. I can, but am not legally obligated to do so.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## snowmannut (Apr 17, 2014)

I think as long as they are not selling the pattern I don't think they are hurting anyone. I honestly don't have time to sell stuff. keeps me busy gifting


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## kristym (Nov 21, 2011)

Every item we buy as clothing came from someones "pattern" or "design". I sew things that resemble loosely items I see in the stores that I deem too expensive and "I can make that for $10.00 or less" enters my head. That said we all use free or purchased patterns on Ravelry. Many of us may sell what we have made and that is perfectly legal. Sorry to say the only recompense you get for your original patterns may be to sell them and at least get that initial recognition.


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## kippyfure (Apr 9, 2011)

If on your pattern you ask people to credit you for your design, what else can you do? There isn't that much profit hen it comes down to it. I would only worry of they were actually selling your actual pattern--for example. two people were selling Nicky Epstein's Barbie knitting book in PF form--nd the book is an actively copyrighted document. As long as you are being credit, it's really flattering. when people like your design that much.


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## Valanteen (Sep 28, 2011)

If I understand the statement and the sale is of a finished item and not the pattern then what did she steal from you?


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## dancewithmarg (Oct 2, 2012)

susankschutz said:


> I found this:
> http://www.creativeincomeblog.com/sell-project-using-someone-elses-pattern/


I don't think I would take as gospel something that gives answers such as this one: 
"99% certian I could say yes"
Someone who is not a copyright lawyer AND cannot spell!
(and is not 100% certain.)


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## mgt44 (Jun 28, 2011)

:wink:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Moondancermel said:


> This is why I ask people to reference me as the designer of the pattern.
> 
> There really is no way to stop people from making things and selling them with the exception of copyright. This covers Disney characters etc... and certain items that may show up in TV programmes like clothing. Usually if you design a look alike you will get away with it provided you don't use the name.


Not exactly true. The Disney characters are trademarked, the original creator has a copyright. In truth, one could design an appliqué that looks like Disney for their personal use or knit a sweater from a Disney pattern of the characters, but couldn't sell only the one item. No one can profit from reproducing the Disney trademarked characters. Disney owns them.

However, if you buy fabric from a store with the Disney characters on licensed fabric, you can make and sell your creation.

The laws are specific to trademarks, licensing and copyright.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Not exactly true. The Disney characters are trademarked, different than a copyright.


 :thumbup: 
Disney and the others carry Copyright - And - Patent - And - Trademark.


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## azmoonbugs (Dec 2, 2011)

knitabitcrochetaway said:


> I found out last night that someone is selling finished objects on Etsy using my free pattern and I'm not sure how I feel about it. I post free patterns because I want to share my creativity with the world, as so many others have done for me. However, I don't expect others to be making a profit off of my ideas. I suppose I could start selling patterns or copyrighting them, but I still want to share with my fellow knitters. Has anyone ever experienced this dilemma?


the only difference between a person selling something made by your pattern and somebody making your pattern to wear is the money for time and materials to make it for somebody else.

If you were to see me in one of your patterns walking down the street, there would be no way to know if I made it myself or paid somebody to make it for me. Would you be mad if you saw me wearing it? If so, then stop making patterns at all.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> :thumbup:
> Disney and the others carry Copyright - And - Patent - And - Trademark.


I don't believe the Disney characters are under a Patent.

Patents are for technology, utility, way of doing something, or specific design in the manufacturing process. I don't see how that pertains to a Disney character.

Yes, to copyright and trademarks and licensed goods. Meaning Disney allows companies they license to produce goods for sale/profit which highlight their Disney Characters.

Interesting discussion!


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Moondancermel said:


> This is why I ask people to reference me as the designer of the pattern.
> 
> There really is no way to stop people from making things and selling them with the exception of copyright. This covers Disney characters etc... and certain items that may show up in TV programmes like clothing. Usually if you design a look alike you will get away with it provided you don't use the name.


Disney and the others carry Copyright - And - Patent - And - Trademark.

Copyright only covers the pattern itself.
There is no law stating no one can sell what they make (the one, two, three items).
Like someone just selling their one or two blankets that were commissioned to make, but the agreement/contract fell through. 
If I didn't want those blankets -- of course I am going to sell them.
No one has the legal obligation to state who's pattern was used (unless maybe at a craft judging fair or for pattern variance/adaptation purposes), though it would be nice on both sides of the fence - as a courtesy.

But -- if you want to make and sell items on a regular basis, over and over, you need to purchase a "commercial" license of the pattern - then you can sell as many as you like.
And with a commercial license it may indeed state that you name the designer.
You would have to read that part of the copyright agreement for the commercial use.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I don't believe the Disney characters are under a Patent.
> 
> Patents are for technology, utility, way of doing something, or specific design in the manufacturing process. I don't see how that pertains to a Disney character.


The Disney Toys are patented as well as trademarked.


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## GogoJules (Aug 27, 2012)

This is a difficult one. If the pattern is free, then I guess people can use it to make the items. If it happens that they do sell them, that seems to me to be part of the process. A friend of mine bakes to swell her income; she uses recipes which are freely available on the internet. Perhaps this is the same kind of thing?


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## Kansas g-ma (Mar 7, 2014)

lostarts said:


> That's what I thought, too. I always understood that what was being copyrighted was the _words_, not the design.
> 
> But under certain conditions copyright can cover items made from the pattern that are being sold.
> 
> ...


Even with copyright notice, etc, you may have recourse but it may be so costly as to be worthless. Some years ago a talented cloth doll designer with really unique doll patterns found a woman selling exact copies of her patterns at a big quilt show. The woman had changed the doll's name and removed the designer's name but otherwise had taken the pattern sheets and copied them and was selling them. Designer looked into it and found it wasn't worth the time/$$ to pursue. Instead she told as many doll makers as she could about the woman and we spread the word and the woman was soon out of business.

I do hope the maker has given you credit for designing the pattern-- and you should ask her to do so because some of us would NOT buy the finished product but might like the pattern source. And thanks for posting free patterns-- love them!


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## Kansas g-ma (Mar 7, 2014)

galaxycraft said:


> The Disney Toys are patented as well as trademarked.


And if you are dumb enough to use Disney stuff in any public way, you may have their big corporate lawyers down your throat. GD's daycare had darling Disney characters on walls, got notified and had to take it down or lawsuit.


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## Ms Sue (Jun 5, 2013)

I, personally, would not copy a pattern I bought and let someone else use it, as I feel that is dishonest and illegal, butif I had made an article from that pattern I would feel I could sell it if I wanted (don't worry, it is not going to happen for it takes me so long to make it no one could afford it. I may give it to someone, so if you get a knitted or crocheted item from me you know you are special).


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## Kansas g-ma (Mar 7, 2014)

knitpresentgifts said:


> However, if you buy fabric from a store with the Disney characters on licensed fabric, you can make and sell your creation.


Only if you don't live in the town where the copyright police are working. Our university has a logo and I can buy fabric with that logo but I cannot sell items I make with that logo without paying the university a huge fee. They police the local craft shows for this type infringement and can seize your work if you don't have their expensive license.


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## Patita (Apr 9, 2015)

These are my thoughts on this topic:
1. The finished product will never be exactly the same as the original.
2. We don't know how much that person needs the money.
3. Same thing happens with recipes.
I prefer to think of the good in people, but if this bothers you too much stop posting patterns!!!


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## katkell2645 (Sep 16, 2014)

From what I see with free patterns, they say you can sell the work, but to give credit to the one who wrote it, and do not change anything in the pattern. I don't know how to write patterns and I don't have the extra money to purchase them, so I would like to thank you for giving them to us for free


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## imalulu (May 19, 2013)

knitabitcrochetaway said:


> Yes! Thank you for putting into words what was bothering me better than I could myself. It's not about the money because if I cared about that I wouldn't be posting all of my patterns for free. It's the fact that someone is selling finished projects from my free patterns without giving me credit, making me feel like they are taking credit for my design, too. I'm happy to see people make projects from my designs - it's pretty cool to see the subtle variations people make. But if it's directly from my design, and someone is trying to make a profit from it, it would be nice to get a mention.


May we please see what pattern you are talking about?

The reason I ask is this....I sell my knitting and have been doing so for many decades. About 6 months ago, someone contacted me about copying their design and selling the finished item in my Etsy store. It was a simple hat (beanie type) with cats on it. I have been making this design and selling a few here and there over the past 27 years. I do lots of "picture" knitting, especially on hats. The hat "pattern" itself...the directions of how many sts to cast on, how many rows to knit, the shaping of the hat top is all my own math and made up by me, most of the time. But, sometimes I follow directions from books or other printed patterns. The "picture" be it cats, dump trucks, a London double-decker bus, etc. is my work, also.... worked out with colored pencils on graph paper. I take ideas of objects from many sources to put on my knitted items, then I work out the design, do math to present it best on the article I'm going to knit.

The reason I'm saying all this is....the hat I was accused of copying was the back view of cats sitting around the hat. The person that contacted me thought she was the first person in the world to ever think about designing the back silhouette of cats (pretty easy design) with tails hanging and their whiskers in profile. I believe that lots of people could come up with this design. Younger generations especially may think it's their idea, but in reality, it is not.

So, again, knitabitcrochetaway, may we please see what pattern you are talking about?

Lynne, aka imalulu
www.imalulu.etsy.com


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## Ann Heistad (Jan 18, 2012)

Copyright only applies to the pattern itself, not to the garments made and sold from using the pattern.

If you do not want people to make and sell the garments then add that note onto the pattern that the garment is for personal use only and not for resale once made.


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## mlsolcz (Feb 16, 2012)

hilltopper said:


> Folks are not to sell your patterns. They can sell what they make from them. You have no proprietary rights in what is made from your patterns, only in the patterns themselves. Free of for a price.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Gweneth 1946 (May 20, 2012)

No. I am no good at retail. I would be honoured if someone liked my patterns and could make a living out of them. Are you in the same area. Are they infringing on your business. If not I would just let it go. But if you are loosing sleep at night maybe you should find another way or another place to store your patterns.


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## mlsolcz (Feb 16, 2012)

Shirley Ray said:


> Once a person obtains your pattern (free or otherwise), which in this case that you have freely given, it is theirs to use as they see fit. They certainly should be able to make things from it. If you didn't want them to do that, why did you share the pattern? Why would they bother obtaining it if it can't be used?
> 
> I get copyrighted music for my dulcimer free at workshops from the author. I can perform it as many times as I want, I just can't give the printed copy to individuals or club members if the writer has asked me not to whether it was given to me freely or bought. If music is not the writer's livelihood I am usually told to share it with anyone who wants it. When I get it free from the Internet, there are no restrictions.
> 
> If you put it out there for us, obviously you are proud of the pattern. Why not be proud that the recipient liked it so much she makes it repeatedly. If the finished product is selling that well, take it off the free list, make it yourself and sell it.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Ann Heistad said:


> Copyright only applies to the pattern itself, not to the garments made and sold from using the pattern.
> 
> If you do not want people to make and sell the garments then add that note onto the pattern that the garment is for personal use only and not for resale once made.


How can making a note on the pattern be any different than a copyright notice spelled out?
Your statement makes no sense.

If anyone wants to sell in quantity (as in a business), then you have to purchase a commercial license of the pattern to do so.
But this has to be a part of the copyright statement or your website.
Though this may be different from country to country - so check into it.

The occasional one or two items/small quantity (because of items not needed anymore) is permissible to sell the finished item.
And the OP has yet to actually explain if it was being mass-produced for selling purposes, or just a onsie - twosie type of thing.


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## Kansas g-ma (Mar 7, 2014)

imalulu said:


> The reason I'm saying all this is....the hat I was accused of copying was the back view of cats sitting around the hat. The person that contacted me thought she was the first person in the world to ever think about designing the back silhouette of cats (pretty easy design) with tails hanging and their whiskers in profile.


That hat is darling! Thanks for posting a pix of it.


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## mlsolcz (Feb 16, 2012)

impatient knitter said:


> I stand corrected!! Please forgive me. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa!


We all make mistakes.


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## mlsolcz (Feb 16, 2012)

galaxycraft said:


> Again folks ---
> *This topic is about the finished item being sold --- Not The Pattern being sold.*


Thank you, hope people listen!


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## mlsolcz (Feb 16, 2012)

ICE said:


> NOT the point. It is taking something that is free AND putting YOUR name on it AND selling it for profit....WRONG!


That's not the topic. The topic is making the item and selling it which is not a crime. Next people will want to say how many times you can actually make something from the pattern. There are limits to copyrights.


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## mlsolcz (Feb 16, 2012)

hilltopper said:


> Has nothing to do with flattery I.C.E. You only own the printed piece, not the items made from the directions on it. People must not sell copies of your printed pattern. Nothing at all to do with the items made from it.


Time to give up on this. People aren't listening!


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## Montana Gramma (Dec 19, 2012)

When I sell a finished item it states the pattern source, knitting , crochet or quilting, if the pattern makers asks that to be done. It is a small courtesy to grant for the use of their pattern. Sometimes they are tagged even when a "gift" to an unfortunate or a need. If the law changes so will my habits, I will find a vintage pattern without restrictions and change it to suit my need. No fuss, no muss but with my limited skills pretty plain! So thankyou all who design for us free and then give us free rein.


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## Linuxgirl (May 25, 2013)

knitabitcrochetaway said:


> I found out last night that someone is selling finished objects on Etsy using my free pattern and I'm not sure how I feel about it. I post free patterns because I want to share my creativity with the world, as so many others have done for me. However, I don't expect others to be making a profit off of my ideas. I suppose I could start selling patterns or copyrighting them, but I still want to share with my fellow knitters. Has anyone ever experienced this dilemma?


Look at it this way. Some people have to earn their money with crafting (which we enjoy as a hobby). Those people will be happy to find beautiful free patterns to help them as it takes talent and time to make a pattern. Obviously your pattern was considered beautiful, so one of those people uses it now. It is legal and your pattern might help someone craft something beautiful and earn his/her bread.
Enjoy your talent and if you're generous to give your patterns to the world, enjoy the fact that you not only give us hobby knitters joy, but also help others to live.


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## Cathy B (May 15, 2014)

galaxycraft said:


> http://copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html#howmuch
> How much of someone else's work can I use without getting permission?
> 
> Under the fair use doctrine of the U.S. copyright statute, it is permissible to use limited portions of a work including quotes, for purposes such as commentary, criticism, news reporting, and scholarly reports.
> ...


This is worth being repeated! A lawsuit was brought against Target for using a knitted sweater pattern, having it reproduced and sold in their stores. The designer won the case and Target was ordered to reimburse the pattern designer for all sweaters sold derived from the pattern. The only difference here is volume. I'm sure the Etsy seller is not selling as many items as target and is not hiring a factory to mass produce the item. 
Here is a publication regarding copyright from interweave press you all should read http://www.interweave.com/PressRoom/PR_files/Free-Copyright-eBook-for-Crafters-and-Artists.pdf
On page two it specifically states that the designer owns the rights to "Produce derivative works based on the original", "Control the distribution of copies of the work". 
My interpretation is that, the Etsy seller did not have your permission to sell derivative works. So you need to contact the Etsy seller. Ask her to stop selling the items. As to whether you take legal action is up to you. It could end up costing you more in legal fees than it is worth.


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## piebirdsue (Sep 12, 2013)

hilltopper said:


> I think calling people who make items from patterns - or pictures - found online criminals and thieves is very strong! and very wrong! Please read up on the applicable law.


 :thumbup:


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## Browniemom (Sep 24, 2012)

Contact Etsy. Someone is doing this on e-bay in England too. Found out about this yesterday from other knitters. This person is also using the designers photos. Send me a pm if you need more info...


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Browniemom said:


> Contact Etsy. Someone is doing this on e-bay in England too. Found out about this yesterday from other knitters. This person is also using the designers photos.


Is that the same one who is selling Copies Of Patterns?
Just look up Bev's topic post - "Stealing on EBAY "
................................................................................

Again this topic is about selling the finished item.
A person can sell the finished item, unless a person wants to make them in high quantity (as in a business), then they have to purchase a commercial license of the pattern (if it is available to do so).
Again, that is a decision/agreement between buyer/end user and the designer.
But the overall laws do state that you as a designer can not control what happens to the finished item.
The fine points of this are still being worked out by the various countries from what I understand.


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## YarnStalker (May 30, 2011)

http://www.vogueknitting.com/magazine/article_archive/ask_a_lawyer_knitting_and_copyright


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## sundrop016 (Mar 19, 2013)

Once you purchase a pattern it belongs to you. You can make the object and sell it.


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## Cathy B (May 15, 2014)

susankschutz said:


> http://www.vogueknitting.com/magazine/article_archive/ask_a_lawyer_knitting_and_copyright


Thanks, great article.


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## sharmend (Feb 14, 2012)

Sad situation any way you look at it!


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## imalulu (May 19, 2013)

Cathy B said:


> Here is a publication regarding copyright from interweave press you all should read http://www.interweave.com/PressRoom/PR_files/Free-Copyright-eBook-for-Crafters-and-Artists.pdf
> On page two it specifically states that the designer owns the rights to "Produce derivative works based on the original", "Control the distribution of copies of the work".
> My interpretation is that, the Etsy seller did not have your permission to sell derivative works. So you need to contact the Etsy seller. Ask her to stop selling the items. As to whether you take legal action is up to you. It could end up costing you more in legal fees than it is worth.


But, on page 6 of this same publication it states this....
Q: Can I make and sell projects I found in a book or magazine?
The projects instructions we publish at Interweave are intended for personal use and inspiration only  not for commercial purposes.

In the United States, copyright protections do not extend to the utilitarian aspects of useful articles, such as clothing or other functional items. This means that only the artful authorship that can be identified separately from the functional aspects of such articles may be copyrightable: the specific ornamentation, for example, on a dress, 
sweater, or quilt, and not design constrained by the items function as a dress, sweater, or quilt. In general, designs for items that have any intrinsic utilitarian aspects are very difficult to copyright, and copyright infringement claims over similar-looking or even clearly derivative works are not likely to succeed. Be aware, however, that original artwork incorporated into useful articles may be protected, and it may be infringing to reproduce that original artwork for commercial purposes.

What is always copyrightable are the specific words, images, diagrams, and other materials published as a part of articles and project instructions. At Interweave, we ask that you respect the intended usage of the materials we publish.


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## LilgirlCA (Jan 22, 2011)

When you post your pattern, you can write use restrictions on the pattern itself. Then all would know that you don't want them to use the pattern to make items for sale. Or if you prefer, you can license the patterns so you get a percentage of what they sell.

Most people will follow your restrictions. However, there are some who will ignore them. In those cases, you can write/email the person when you find it and ask them to remove the item and stop selling it.

Or you can get an attorney and sue them assuming that you have enough money

Another way to look at this whole issue is to take pride that you have designed a pattern that others like enough to make up and sell the item. Take it as a compliment to your skills as a designer.

It is totally up to you and you can do whatever you wish


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

there are those that think that putting restrictions on a pattern will change the way people use it 

there are those that think it is of no use to put restrictions on the pattern

if you don't like the way people use your patterns, then don't let anyone see them. Sorry, but you cannot police what people do with the pattern unless they are a commercial business.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

chickkie said:


> I still think that you can't tell people that they can't sell what they make from your patterns. It is only the pattern you can't sell. No matter how many copyrights you put on the pattern, there is no way to police what someone makes and what they do with it.


This forum should be a good example of the fact that we can tell people anything and everything; whether it's factual is often another story. The very word, "copyright," is explosive here and goes ballistic at every opportunity. I don't think anything said about it here is going to change anyone's mind, just going by the history of such discussions. Some people want the truth, some people want what they want. The number of truth seekers here seem to be in the minority on copyright issues unless many are not speaking out. You, galaxycraft, some former members, and others I don't know have consistently been among the truth seekers. I'm frustrated with the whole topic at this point, and increasingly so with the general tone of KP. I think I need to make myself scarce for awhile.


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## YarnStalker (May 30, 2011)

I found a beanie pattern online a year ago that was designed by a male soccer player. He says at the bottom do what you want with it. Have fun, make a bunch. 
I have also downloaded free patterns wear they suggest $1 be sent back to them for each finished item sold. I haven't sold anything made from someone's pattern. I use a schematic based on math and just list my items with a description of approx size based on industry standard sock/shoe sizes. The chart I go by was found on a site for the commercial sock industry. Feet are feet.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> This forum should be a good example of the fact that we can tell people anything and everything; whether it's factual is often another story. The very word, "copyright," is explosive here and goes ballistic at every opportunity. I don't think anything said about it here is going to change anyone's mind, just going by the history of such discussions. Some people want the truth, some people want what they want. The number of truth seekers here seem to be in the minority on copyright issues unless many are not speaking out. You, galaxycraft, some former members, and others I don't know have consistently been among the truth seekers. I'm frustrated with the whole topic at this point, and increasingly so with the general tone of KP. I think I need to make myself scarce for awhile.


:thumbup: :thumbup:


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

chickkie said:


> there are those that think that putting restrictions on a pattern will change the way people use it
> 
> there are those that think it is of no use to put restrictions on the pattern
> 
> if you don't like the way people use your patterns, then don't let anyone see them. Sorry, but you cannot police what people do with the pattern unless they are a commercial business.


:thumbup:


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## mirium (May 14, 2013)

knitabitcrochetaway said:


> I found out last night that someone is selling finished objects on Etsy using my free pattern and I'm not sure how I feel about it. I post free patterns because I want to share my creativity with the world, as so many others have done for me. However, I don't expect others to be making a profit off of my ideas. I suppose I could start selling patterns or copyrighting them, but I still want to share with my fellow knitters. Has anyone ever experienced this dilemma?


I have to ask an awkward question -- are you sure it's from your pattern, and the seller didn't have a similar idea and figure out how to make one on her own? I often make items for myself from my own design, and then see a very similar pattern posted online. Sometimes "great minds think alike." :thumbup:

If, after checking your ego at the door, you're sure the seller is using your pattern, it sounds like you're less concerned about the money and more concerned about getting "props" for your creativity. If so, I'd suggest checking the Etsy website to see if they've posted a policy about this situation; if they haven't, contact them and ask. Once you have those facts, you could contact the seller and explain that her items seem ("seem" is important!) to have been made from your pattern, and that if that's true you'd like to be credited for your creativity. (Or get a cut of the profits; whatever you truly want.)

No matter what, it's a good idea to start out nice, instead of blasting in with accusations of "you've stolen my pattern!" It will probably become clear pretty quickly what's going on -- whether the seller came up with a similar idea, or didn't realize she should mention that it was your design, or is one of those "I see it, I want it, I take it" people. Worst case scenario, you could post your own ad on Etsy to sell the finished item, stating that they're from your Original Design (with a link to where you posted the pattern if Etsy allows that). If you get more requests than you want to produce, mention that another seller is offering something that seems (again, "seems" is important!) very similar. Buyers who see the seller's ad will also see yours, and form their own opinions of where the seller gets her ideas.


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## SouthernGirl (Dec 28, 2011)

I have actually read all 8 pages of this topic. I have read similar discussions on KP and have never joined in but I think I will now just to give my two cents here.

As you may know, I design patterns. Proceeds from the sale of my patterns help to support my favorite charities. Some people knit for their favorite places. I prefer designing. My designs are one of the sources for me to raise funds. I also sell items that I knit. Again to be able to donate funds. I'm telling the reasons why I design and why I charge for my patterns just because I am sometimes disappointed to hear people complain about paying for a pattern. Sometimes I do give patterns to people for free but that is my decision. I think it's great if others choose to give their patterns for free.

So the topic here is, if I understand it, can someone sell finished items from a design. I have always thought that they could. I am only selling the pattern. There are no restrictions on my patterns. But the idea of a commercial high volume production restriction is an interesting one.

I want people to sell the items they make from my patterns. It doesn't matter to me if they reference my pattern or not. But if they do reference it, I am appreciative. 

I purchase patterns if I see something fun. Several times I have purchased patterns and then read at the bottom of it that the designer restricts the buyer from selling the knitted item. Even though I can understand that they cannot stop someone, they should really say it upfront before someone purchases the pattern.

My nephew is an intellectual property attorney and I have often thought of asking him about all of this but have not yet. I still probably will not because it seems like many people here have a lot of knowledge and he is very busy.

But I do have a question for the designers who put a restriction on their patterns. Why do you have the restriction? I am not confrontational by nature nor do I want to stir up anything but I have often wondered why that restriction is put on a pattern.


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## misellen (Mar 8, 2013)

ICE said:


> Please read my post and make the CORRECT interpretation.
> It is ALL about the PATTERNS and NOT about the finished items.


ICE Please! go back and read the original post. The OP was concerned because someone was selling ITEMS MADE FROM HER PATTERN. They are not selling the pattern, just the finished items.


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## Artbarn (Aug 1, 2014)

susankschutz said:


> I found this:
> http://www.creativeincomeblog.com/sell-project-using-someone-elses-pattern/


This is written by Maria Nerius, who is a crafter, not a knitter. Craft items fall into the category of art--and the copyright laws on art are different from those relating to garments (knitting).


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## misellen (Mar 8, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> We are talking about ONE Person putting a finished item on Etsy for sale.
> 
> ...


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Artbarn (Aug 1, 2014)

knitabitcrochetaway said:


> It's definitely not about recognition, it's about respect for others.


I agree that it is respectful and courteous to give credit to the designer. It's what I was always taught to do with decorative painting and jewelry making.

However, the law does not require it.


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## Lillyhooch (Sep 27, 2012)

ICE said:


> Please read my post and make the CORRECT interpretation.
> It is ALL about the PATTERNS and NOT about the finished items.


I'm sorry Ice, but do you not see there is a difference between a pattern and a knitted garment...


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## Lillyhooch (Sep 27, 2012)

galaxycraft said:


> Is that the same one who is selling Copies Of Patterns?
> Just look up Bev's topic post - "Stealing on EBAY "
> ................................................................................
> 
> ...


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## JuneS (Nov 3, 2011)

Maybe you would feel less violated if you added a request to your free pattern that the maker attach a tag to the items they sell listing your name as the designer of the pattern plus a link to your post.

I make things to sell to raise funds for the Cancer Society and always attach a tag naming the pattern and the designer and a link to where they can find the designer. I do this to give credit to the designer and let the customers know it was not my design, just my yarn and labor that they are purchasing.


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## mirium (May 14, 2013)

I haven't posted patterns, but I've used patterns to make items to be sold for charity and I put on a tag that acknowledges the designer by name. I figure that it's the designer's creative idea that made someone go "ooo, I want that!" and pay money for it; my skill at following the designer's instructions matters but that wasn't what made the buyer's eyes light up and make them reach for their wallet.

Legalities aside, for me it's about courtesy, respect, and honesty. If I don't tell the buyer that this is a copy of an Artist's original design, I'm lying by omission -- they'll give me credit that doesn't belong to me. I have come up with some original designs for charity sales, and I'm darn proud of them, including the ones that don't sell well. I love all my brainchildren.


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## Munchn (Mar 3, 2013)

Email the person copyright or not. Wrong is wrong.


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## cah (Oct 2, 2014)

SAMkewel said:


> The number of truth seekers here seem to be in the minority on copyright issues unless many are not speaking out.


We're too busy laughing our heads off at some of the stuff that's being written here. :mrgreen: I can always tell exactly who is getting their information from the copyright.gov website and who is making things up in their own head. We can't make them read the website. If they don't wanna know, they don't wanna know.

P.S. We also can't make them read the thread properly. There are still many here who believe it was the pattern that was for sale on etsy!


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## Pauline (Jan 23, 2011)

Just last week I read about this. 
I think it is a disgrace to take away from those of us who need the free patterns, so generously given with love!


Thank you for all that you do to help to keep us doing something that we love.


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## Lillyhooch (Sep 27, 2012)

knitabitcrochetaway said:


> Yes! Thank you for putting into words what was bothering me better than I could myself. It's not about the money because if I cared about that I wouldn't be posting all of my patterns for free. It's the fact that someone is selling finished projects from my free patterns without giving me credit, making me feel like they are taking credit for my design, too. I'm happy to see people make projects from my designs - it's pretty cool to see the subtle variations people make. But if it's directly from my design, and someone is trying to make a profit from it, it would be nice to get a mention.


Simple really. Just contact the person and say you would really appreciate it if they include your name as the pattern designer. Not worth getting upset by it, could be the person would be more than happy to comply with your request.


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## Lillyhooch (Sep 27, 2012)

ICE said:


> PLEASE! If nobody sells patterns than a lot of us have binders full of finished items???????????????????????????????????


Don't really understand this response...do you really put your knitting and crochet items in binders? I certainly put paper patterns in binders...but crafted items? Truly weird.


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## fourbyin (Oct 6, 2013)

testy subject


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## YarnStalker (May 30, 2011)

I was sitting here feeling frustrated that I can't find more sock yarn to match what I'm using and, out of curiosity clicked on the very last page on this forum then went to the previous one. Look what the topic was in 2011.

http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-3188-1.html

Yes, copyright law.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

cah said:


> We're too busy laughing our heads off at some of the stuff that's being written here. :mrgreen: I can always tell exactly who is getting their information from the copyright.gov website and who is making things up in their own head. We can't make them read the website. If they don't wanna know, they don't wanna know.
> 
> P.S. We also can't make them read the thread properly. There are still many here who believe it was the pattern that was for sale on etsy!


Perhaps quite a few need to reread the title of this thread, which is: Selling FOs from my Free Patterns. I don't know how things get so convoluted whenever the word "copyright" is involved, even remotely, do you? It's as if someone tied a firecracker to their tails. This thread was only secondarily about copyright--they need to break down the word: copy right, not demanding right, not wanting right, not just because right, not because I can't afford to buy it right (been there, done that), but copy right. What's so friggin' hard about that? The designer is the only one with the right to copy, or sell, the pattern ONLY. Not rocket science, eh?


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> Perhaps quite a few need to reread the title of this thread, which is: Selling FOs from my Free Patterns. I don't know how things get so convoluted whenever the word "copyright" is involved, even remotely, do you? It's as if someone tied a firecracker to their tails. This thread was only secondarily about copyright--they need to break down the word: copy right, not demanding right, not wanting right, not just because right, not because I can't afford to buy it right (been there, done that), but copy right. What's so friggin' hard about that? The designer is the only one with the right to copy, or sell, the pattern ONLY. Not rocket science, eh?


:thumbup:


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

susankschutz said:


> I was sitting here feeling frustrated that I can't find more sock yarn to match what I'm using and, out of curiosity clicked on the very last page on this forum then went to the previous one. Look what the topic was in 2011.
> 
> http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-3188-1.html
> 
> Yes, copyright law.


We have been having WW III over this subject periodically since KP started. Go figure. Another interesting bit of information is the KP rules regarding this and everything else addressed by them, which apparently many have never read. And they do change from time to time, so rereading is a good idea.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> We have been having WW III over this subject periodically since KP started. Go figure. Another interesting bit of information is the KP rules regarding this and everything else addressed by them, which apparently many have never read. And they do change from time to time, so rereading is a good idea.


:thumbup:


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

and on another post today someone is asking for a free copy of a copyrighted pattern...


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

chickkie said:


> and on another post today someone is asking for a free copy of a copyrighted pattern...


:shock: :evil: :thumbdown:
$$ --- & --- ©


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## cozyhomelife (Mar 14, 2013)

You know.... some people NEED to make money to live, and for one reason or another can not work outside the home, but they CAN knit/crochet. If people had to write the patterns before they could sell them, there wouldn't be any handmade things to buy, because they knit/crochet, doesn't mean they can write patterns. The people who don't know how to make, will just buy what's at Walmart. I also wouldn't buy a pattern that tried to restrict me. Having said this, I'm full time caregiver to my stroke husband and never sold anything, because it took me months to just make a simple garter stitch sweater for niece's baby, due to only have 5 free minutes at a time to work. Still many people need patterns to be able to pay the rent and buy groceries, it is their only income.

As a matter of fact, I remember when we were young marrieds and I made doll clothes and my sister took them to work and sold them around Christmas. We were starving because it was the recession and they had cut his pay check back so much - we were surviving by eating one egg a day.


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## misellen (Mar 8, 2013)

chickkie said:


> I still think that you can't tell people that they can't sell what they make from your patterns. It is only the pattern you can't sell. No matter how many copyrights you put on the pattern, there is no way to police what someone makes and what they do with it.


I agree. The person making the item has chosen the yarn, color etc and has put her/his own labor into the item. It is their item and you cannot tell a person that they cannot sell their own work.


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## mossstitch (Nov 6, 2013)

Sometimes it doesn't pay to be kind and share with others . 
Share your patterns only with others who will appreciate them Good Luck .


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## doreen344 (May 26, 2011)

imalulu said:


> May we please see what pattern you are talking about?
> 
> The reason I ask is this....I sell my knitting and have been doing so for many decades. About 6 months ago, someone contacted me about copying their design and selling the finished item in my Etsy store. It was a simple hat (beanie type) with cats on it. I have been making this design and selling a few here and there over the past 27 years. I do lots of "picture" knitting, especially on hats. The hat "pattern" itself...the directions of how many sts to cast on, how many rows to knit, the shaping of the hat top is all my own math and made up by me, most of the time. But, sometimes I follow directions from books or other printed patterns. The "picture" be it cats, dump trucks, a London double-decker bus, etc. is my work, also.... worked out with colored pencils on graph paper. I take ideas of objects from many sources to put on my knitted items, then I work out the design, do math to present it best on the article I'm going to knit.
> 
> ...


Took me a second to see the cats. At first I tried to see cats in the black part.. Lol. Great hat.


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## Artbarn (Aug 1, 2014)

mirium said:


> I haven't posted patterns, but I've used patterns to make items to be sold for charity and I put on a tag that acknowledges the designer by name. I figure that it's the designer's creative idea that made someone go "ooo, I want that!" and pay money for it; my skill at following the designer's instructions matters but that wasn't what made the buyer's eyes light up and make them reach for their wallet.
> 
> Legalities aside, for me it's about courtesy, respect, and honesty. If I don't tell the buyer that this is a copy of an Artist's original design, I'm lying by omission -- they'll give me credit that doesn't belong to me. I have come up with some original designs for charity sales, and I'm darn proud of them, including the ones that don't sell well. I love all my brainchildren.


 :thumbup:


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## doreen344 (May 26, 2011)

I purchase patterns if I see something fun. Several times I have purchased patterns and then read at the bottom of it that the designer restricts the buyer from selling the knitted item. Even though I can understand that they cannot stop someone, they should really say it upfront before someone purchases the pattern.


I so agree with this.. Ooops I copied and paste from a previous comment. hope this is not a copy "write" infringement.


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## xbluemoon2 (Sep 8, 2014)

Shirley Ray said:


> Once a person obtains your pattern (free or otherwise), which in this case that you have freely given, it is theirs to use as they see fit. They certainly should be able to make things from it. If you didn't want them to do that, why did you share the pattern? Why would they bother obtaining it if it can't be used?
> 
> I get copyrighted music for my dulcimer free at workshops from the author. I can perform it as many times as I want, I just can't give the printed copy to individuals or club members if the writer has asked me not to whether it was given to me freely or bought. If music is not the writer's livelihood I am usually told to share it with anyone who wants it. When I get it free from the Internet, there are no restrictions.
> 
> If you put it out there for us, obviously you are proud of the pattern. Why not be proud that the recipient liked it so much she makes it repeatedly. If the finished product is selling that well, take it off the free list, make it yourself and sell it.


 :thumbup:


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## Seapoodle (Jun 7, 2011)

you must have a pain in the head from these misunderstood replies. you're very good natured to keep responding and trying to clarify. I would have kicked my computer across the room by now :?


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## Lillyhooch (Sep 27, 2012)

doreen344 said:


> Took me a second to see the cats. At first I tried to see cats in the black part.. Lol. Great hat.


Same here. But when I went back to look after reading this post, saw cats immediately.


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## ADW55 (Mar 31, 2014)

galaxycraft said:


> :roll: :roll: Outta here ----


In looking at your post, with the OP's on it, and I reread
the original message, I do believe Copyright infringements
don't even come into play.

She said that maybe she should start charging for the
patterns, OR, copyrighting them.

They legally may not even be her patterns to complain
about, yes she made them, but hasn't protected them
by law??


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## ADW55 (Mar 31, 2014)

knitabitcrochetaway said:


> It's definitely not about recognition, it's about respect for others.


My Dear, I'm sorry to say with your attitude how can you expect
anyone to ever want another one of your patterns free or not.

The Lord says to be a cheerful giver.


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## nuthouse (Oct 30, 2012)

When selling items from KP members patterns (free or purchased) I always give the designer credit for the pattern.


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## moogles (Apr 29, 2011)

so you are telling me that I purchase a pattern and on sell the garment that I make from it to give myself some funds to buy more yarn patterns etc is wrong then .......if this is so what is the point of the enjoyment that knitting brings


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## nuthouse (Oct 30, 2012)

SouthernGirl said:


> I have actually read all 8 pages of this topic. I have read similar discussions on KP and have never joined in but I think I will now just to give my two cents here.
> 
> As you may know, I design patterns. Proceeds from the sale of my patterns help to support my favorite charities. Some people knit for their favorite places. I prefer designing. My designs are one of the sources for me to raise funds. I also sell items that I knit. Again to be able to donate funds. I'm telling the reasons why I design and why I charge for my patterns just because I am sometimes disappointed to hear people complain about paying for a pattern. Sometimes I do give patterns to people for free but that is my decision. I think it's great if others choose to give their patterns for free.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Well said from someone who is a designer.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

chickkie said:


> and on another post today someone is asking for a free copy of a copyrighted pattern...


Yup, I saw that. I didn't notice whether that was a relatively new person, did you? I was probably rolling my eyes instead of looking.....


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

ADW55 said:


> In looking at your post, with the OP's on it, and I reread
> the original message, I do believe Copyright infringements
> don't even come into play.
> 
> ...


Apparently you have not read the entire thread.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

ADW55 said:


> My Dear, I'm sorry to say with your attitude how can you expect
> anyone to ever want another one of your patterns free or not.
> 
> The Lord says to be a cheerful giver.


The Lord also says judge not lest ye be judged.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

moogles said:


> so you are telling me that I purchase a pattern and on sell the garment that I make from it to give myself some funds to buy more yarn patterns etc is wrong then .......if this is so what is the point of the enjoyment that knitting brings


I don't think that was the message, if you read the entire thread. Additionally, New Zealand doesn't necessarily have the same copyright laws.


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## ADW55 (Mar 31, 2014)

SAMkewel said:


> Apparently you have not read the entire thread.


What part did I miss on the Copyright information?
I did not think that the copyright protected you when
you did not copyright.

I did read the entire thread. Possibly not every word.

I found the answer to my own question. Now you can't reproduce
my word. Right, because that would be copyright infringement?


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## Metrogal (Mar 15, 2011)

chickkie said:


> Designers that try to control how many items are made or sold from their patterns are being unrealistic.
> 
> putting a copyright notice on the pattern only means the pattern itself is copyrighted, not the finished article.


I work for a patent/copyright attorney. You can't put any type of copyright notice on a pattern unless you've actually gotten it copyrighted. Just saying it is doesn't make it so. If the pattern was put out there for FREE, there is nothing that can be done about selling items that were made from that FREE pattern. I would be happy if someone thought enough of my pattern to use it.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Metrogal said:


> I work for a patent/copyright attorney.
> You can't put any type of copyright notice on a pattern unless you've actually gotten it copyrighted.
> Just saying it is doesn't make it so.


US --- 
http://copyright.gov
http://copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#mywork
Quote From Site:
Q - *When is my work protected?*
A - *Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device*.

Q - *Do I have to register with your office to be protected?*
A - *No*. In general, registration is voluntary. 
*Copyright exists from the moment the work is created*. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section Copyright Registration.

http://copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html#what_protect
Quote from site:
Q - *Does my work have to be published to be protected?*
A - *Publication is not necessary for copyright protection*.

http://copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-definitions.html#notice
Quote from site:
Q - *What is a copyright notice*? How do I put a copyright notice on my work?
A - A copyright notice is an identifier placed on copies of the work to inform the world of copyright ownership. 
The copyright notice generally consists of the symbol or word copyright (or copr.), the name of the copyright owner, and the year of first publication, e.g., ©2008 John Doe.

*While use of a copyright notice was once required as a condition of copyright protection, it is now optional*.

Use of the notice is the responsibility of the copyright owner and does not require advance permission from, or registration with, the Copyright Office. 
See Circular 3, Copyright Notice, for requirements for works published before March 1, 1989, and for more information on the form and position of the copyright notice.
......................................................................................

UK --- 
http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk
http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/copyright_myths
Quote from site:
5. *Anything without a copyright notice is not protected*

A - *Copyright will apply whether there is a copyright notice or not*.

In the US, a notice was required to retain copyright on works published before January 1st 1978, 
but this was the exception not the norm, and is certainly no longer the case. 
Also, once the US signed up to the Berne convention, 
US law was amended, and *the use of copyright notices became optional on work published from March 1st 1989*.

Having said this, it is still certainly worth placing a copyright notice on your work. A copyright notice reminds others that copyright exists, and may therefore help to deter infringement.

http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/copyright
Quote from site:
Q - *Do I need a copyright notice on my work?*
A - *There is no legal requirement to do so. 
Whether a notice is used or not will not change the fact that copyright exists in the work.* 
It is however strongly recommended that you include one on your work if all all possible to deter infringement.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Metrogal said:


> If the pattern was put out there for FREE, there is nothing that can be done about selling items that were made from that FREE pattern.


The same applies to any purchased patterns.
Patterns that are free or for a fee --- have no say on the sale of the finished items --
(unless the maker wishes to sell in high volume - then can purchase a "commercial" licensed pattern).


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## Nicola33 (Apr 27, 2015)

onegrannygoose said:


> There are two ways to look at that. 1. you can be upset and angry about the use of your pattern. 2. you can be happy that someone thinks your pattern is worth copying and selling the finished product after all they did take the time and effort to translate your pattern into a beautiful item.
> You made the pattern and gave it away free because you wanted it to be used. Personally I would feel flattered that my pattern was that well thought of.
> 
> Even copy write patterns are not preventing from someone making the pattern and once they make it its theirs


My thoughts exactly.


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## gina (Jan 18, 2011)

mlsolcz said:


> That's not the topic. The topic is making the item and selling it which is not a crime. Next people will want to say how many times you can actually make something from the pattern. There are limits to copyrights.


I actually have seen that done. The rgave permission for each person to make 3 items from the pattern, as she didn't want it to become common.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

gina said:


> I actually have seen that done. The rgave permission for each person to make 3 items from the pattern, as she didn't want it to become common.


and how can anyone police that?


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## Annasuz (Mar 5, 2014)

:thumbup:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> The Disney Toys are patented as well as trademarked.


Agreed! Probably Disney toys are and carry a patent. Except I was talking about patterns and items created from such pattern as was the OP.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Kansas g-ma said:


> Only if you don't live in the town where the copyright police are working. Our university has a logo and I can buy fabric with that logo but I cannot sell items I make with that logo without paying the university a huge fee. They police the local craft shows for this type infringement and can seize your work if you don't have their expensive license.


This is such a detailed concern. If you buy legal licensed fabric with the logo and make something and advertise it as "Dallas Cowboy" shirt, for example, that is not allowed. UNLESS you are a person licensed by the DC to create items for the DC and for profit.

However, if you buy licensed fabric and make something and advertise your item as a shirt made by YOU with licensed fabric, but you are not a licensee nor represent the DC, you have that right under the law of the first sale doctrine. There is legal precedent case history for exactly this type of concern.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

imalulu said:


> May we please see what pattern you are talking about?
> 
> The reason I ask is this....I sell my knitting and have been doing so for many decades. About 6 months ago, someone contacted me about copying their design and selling the finished item in my Etsy store. It was a simple hat (beanie type) with cats on it. I have been making this design and selling a few here and there over the past 27 years. I do lots of "picture" knitting, especially on hats. The hat "pattern" itself...the directions of how many sts to cast on, how many rows to knit, the shaping of the hat top is all my own math and made up by me, most of the time. But, sometimes I follow directions from books or other printed patterns. The "picture" be it cats, dump trucks, a London double-decker bus, etc. is my work, also.... worked out with colored pencils on graph paper. I take ideas of objects from many sources to put on my knitted items, then I work out the design, do math to present it best on the article I'm going to knit.
> 
> ...


Lynne, your hat is adorable!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SouthernGirl said:


> I have actually read all 8 pages of this topic. I have read similar discussions on KP and have never joined in but I think I will now just to give my two cents here.
> 
> As you may know, I design patterns. Proceeds from the sale of my patterns help to support my favorite charities. Some people knit for their favorite places. I prefer designing. My designs are one of the sources for me to raise funds. I also sell items that I knit. Again to be able to donate funds. I'm telling the reasons why I design and why I charge for my patterns just because I am sometimes disappointed to hear people complain about paying for a pattern. Sometimes I do give patterns to people for free but that is my decision. I think it's great if others choose to give their patterns for free.
> 
> ...


Great post! I've designed a few patterns and sell them for a price. I want people to buy and create from my pattern. That is precisely why I took the time to put my ideas to print! I don't care if someone sells whatever they create, and I believe I have no right to limit the items created from my pattern.

The only concern I would have is if someone sets up production to create items for sale from my pattern. Then, I would have something to say. To me, that is the only legal battle that can be waged successfully from any pattern designer. If ONE person copies and sells my PATTERN, then, that, too, is a legal battle I could bring against them and IMO I would be successful.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> Perhaps quite a few need to reread the title of this thread, which is: Selling FOs from my Free Patterns. I don't know how things get so convoluted whenever the word "copyright" is involved, even remotely, do you? It's as if someone tied a firecracker to their tails. This thread was only secondarily about copyright--they need to break down the word: copy right, not demanding right, not wanting right, not just because right, not because I can't afford to buy it right (been there, done that), but copy right. What's so friggin' hard about that? The designer is the only one with the right to copy, or sell, the pattern ONLY. Not rocket science, eh?


 :-D :thumbup:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Metrogal said:


> I work for a patent/copyright attorney. You can't put any type of copyright notice on a pattern unless you've actually gotten it copyrighted. Just saying it is doesn't make it so. If the pattern was put out there for FREE, there is nothing that can be done about selling items that were made from that FREE pattern. I would be happy if someone thought enough of my pattern to use it.


I'm sorry, but the attorney you work for doesn't understand the law or you haven't accurately conveyed that attorney's opinion. You might choose another attorney if you ever need to patent anything of your own. Also, a copyright exists the second thought is put to paper by the author, no need to get it copyrighted. So, again, seek the advice or learn for yourself about copyright if you publish your own patterns/designs. :shock:


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## aplwh (Mar 3, 2015)

I just read all 12 pages...wow, it's like a tornado in here.

* Free pattern - author did not specify restrictions of any kind

Um, I think you answered your own question.


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## KateLyn11 (Jul 19, 2014)

Your issue seems to be wanting acknowledgement as the patterns creator, rather than wanting money or preventing someone from selling items made from your patterns. Why not just ask users to do that when you make your patterns available. Some will do so, some will not, but unless you ask, many will not think of doing so. I don't sell any items but if I did, I would have no problem with attaching a tag that said an item was made by me using an original pattern created by "Sally Smith".


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## Briegeen (Dec 9, 2012)

Wow, an interesting topic. Not that I am planning to publish but I would like to make time to study the topic in more depth so as to understand better


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## imalulu (May 19, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Lynne, your hat is adorable!


Thank you so much....I think I'll knit a few more for my Etsy shop before Christmas!!


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

imalulu said:


> Thank you so much....I think I'll knit a few more for my Etsy shop before Christmas!!


You should - I'd buy them if I had someone to gift to.

Hmmm, let me think ....


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