# cotton and toxicity



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

People don't often realize how toxic cotton is. KP has had information on the production of cotton before, but it has been a while. This quote is from an article that came in this a.m. and the full link is below. The article focuses on organic farming but this quote is very germaine to what we do as crafts people.

" ...... Cotton is actually one of the most toxic crops there is. Over half of all the pesticides used worldwide are used on cotton.

"We were able to teach cotton growers how to grow organic cotton, and we did an outreach to 62 clothing companies," Allen says.

As a result of this outreach, a number of well-known brands have switched over to organic cotton, including Patagonia, which uses nothing but organic cotton for its line of clothing. About 18 percent of Nike's clothing line is now also organic."

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/04/06/organic-farming.aspx?e_cid=20140406Z1_SNL_Art_1&utm_source=snl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20140406Z1&et_cid=DM42272&et_rid=477937050


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## seedstitch (Nov 29, 2011)

Tamarque, I'm so glad you are a Dr. Mercola follower. I just listened to this refreshing discussion between these three well-informed gentlemen, too - worth the listen. I did NOT realize what 'they' do to cotton. I wonder if there is organic cotton knitting yarn!


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## Roni Masse (Jan 28, 2014)

Tamarque,
Thanks for the info and the link. Wasn't info I was aware of, so thanks. Very interesting in the choice of our yarn for baby projects. Would much rather have a baby wrapped in organic cotton than in the pesticide loaded stuff.


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## seedstitch (Nov 29, 2011)

Yea, there seem to be several choices in Organic. Here's one also fair traded: Debbie Bliss Eco Baby Fair Trade Collection. Pretty colors.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

I have used organic cotton and wool from different sources. If you type in organic cotton yarn, there will be a list of yarn sites that sell it. I get some from a distributor in my area that caters to the trade but will sell single skeins. It is always a fun outing for me to travel over their warehouse and rummage thru their cartons of alpacas, cottons, and silks. Most are undyed so people can dye their own if they like, but I don't.

Cannot find the yarn I use right now but here is one site that looks interesting:

http://www.cottonclouds.com/extras/news.asp?id=81

WEBS and even Lionbrand have organic cotton.

You can also find organic yarn with natural dyes as they add to the chemical level of yarns. There is a lot to look at online. Shop for prices because organic yarn does cost more. I spend about $28/8 oz in worsted weight. It is like butter to work with.

Also found some organic cotton last year that was discontinued (Patons???) that went for about $4/100 gr skein. This was dyed yarn. It made some nice wash cloths and other small items.


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## seedstitch (Nov 29, 2011)

Tamarque, thanks for the info; I have saved it. I've got some cotton yarn in stash that must be over 50 years old. I'll bet it's not so toxic.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

seedstitch said:


> Tamarque, I'm so glad you are a Dr. Mercola follower. I just listened to this refreshing discussion between these three well-informed gentlemen, too - worth the listen. I did NOT realize what 'they' do to cotton. I wonder if there is organic cotton knitting yarn!


I didn't address your comment about Mercola. Yes, I have followed him for a number of years now. He has changed his format a lot. Originally his articles were very narrowly focused on a given nutrient or medical condition. Then he changed to a more mainstream format with articles focusing on more generic and general health issues. But his old files are still available and I think he still is precise in giving his references and personal opinions. I also like some of his video'd interviews: they give us a personal sense of the people promoting an idea or protocol. He is such a techie person.

I also like that he has been so generous in funding the GMO labeling movement in both Calif and Washington. And he does encourage activism on health issues to readers. I have also gotten some good info from the blog comments and there seem to be very few obstructionists that write in so it is 
pleasant reading the comments. It is a good site.

I think there are quite a number of people on KP who read mercola and other progressive health sites.


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## Mireillebc (Apr 7, 2013)

But we don't eat the cotton? What's the problem?


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Why contribute to the toxicity in the environment which is major. We become polluters every time we purchase toxic product of any sort. GMOs are destroying agriculture world wide and their toxic chemicals are increasing 3 fold despite the marketing promising less need for them.

Further. we have no idea what our skin absorbs from toxic produced yarns. This point alone should interest craftpeople. We are always looking for the softest yarns.

Third, organic cotton is infinitely softer than chemically produced yarn.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Just recalled the organic, unbleached, undyed cotton I like to use. It is called Inca Cotton. Had been thinking that the Peruvian yarns are supposedly chemical free and the brain made the right connection to the Inca cotton.

Here is one site selling thru ebay that has low-impact dying. Their Ecru color is dyable, so am thinking it is the natural color.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100gr-Butter-Inca-Eco-Galler-Organic-Cotton-Hand-Knitting-Worsted-Yarn-/301145166630?pt=US_Yarn&hash=item461da69326


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## Deemeegee (Mar 9, 2013)

This is so important! Thank you! Did you know it takes only 26 seconds for what you put on your skin to hit your bloodstream! White yarn is not a lotion, we still are in constant contact with it as we knit, so the residues of toxic substances on the yarns will get into our blood stream.


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## Junelouise (Apr 29, 2011)

Deemeegee said:


> This is so important! Thank you! Did you know it takes only 26 seconds for what you put on your skin to hit your bloodstream! White yarn is not a lotion, we still are in constant contact with it as we knit, so the residues of toxic substances on the yarns will get into our blood stream.


OMG! My GD can only wear cotton..I knew about the pesticide use..which is why I will not buy any food item with cottonseed oil in it...but unless it states "organic" cotton, does that mean it is full of pesticides? I just bought 4 t-shirts in cotton for her made in Cambodia. How do you find out?

June


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Buying organic is an issue as there are many fewer sources of organic yarn or fabric/clothes than the toxic ones. It does take a bit of looking. I would go online and collect sites that sell organic products so you have them in your file. There are a couple of clothing distributors that are 'green' focused but they escape my memory at the moment. 

FYI, I just did a quick search for "organic cotton clothing" and a list of sites popped up. Try it and you can explore which ones are to your liking.

Some of these companies put out a printed catalogue and you can get on their mailing list if you chose.


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## Deemeegee (Mar 9, 2013)

I would also recommend washing a couple of times before wearing. I gravitated to 7th Generation Laundry detergent, but have now moved straight to soap berries, the easiest thing!


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Deemeegee said:


> This is so important! Thank you! Did you know it takes only 26 seconds for what you put on your skin to hit your bloodstream! White yarn is not a lotion, we still are in constant contact with it as we knit, so the residues of toxic substances on the yarns will get into our blood stream.


It is also the dyes and chemicals in the fiber during processing.
Not sure if this is the article I put on KP some time ago, but it is the one I found in my files:

http://organicclothing.blogs.com/my_weblog/2007/07/cotton-facts-be.html

This site has another article on bamboo of a similar nature.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Deemeegee said:


> I would also recommend washing a couple of times before wearing. I gravitated to 7th Generation Laundry detergent, but have now moved straight to soap berries, the easiest thing!


And what are soap berries?


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## dotcarp2000 (Sep 5, 2011)

tamarque said:


> People don't often realize how toxic cotton is. KP has had information on the production of cotton before, but it has been a while. This quote is from an article that came in this a.m. and the full link is below. The article focuses on organic farming but this quote is very germaine to what we do as crafts people.
> 
> " ...... Cotton is actually one of the most toxic crops there is. Over half of all the pesticides used worldwide are used on cotton.
> 
> ...


I wonder what the CDC has to say about toxicity of cotton. I think I'll make an inquiry and how much of an issue it is. You have to remember how much we ingest of food that has been treated with chemicals and whether or not we always get rid of those by washing them before we eat them.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Will be interesting to see the CDC response but I bet it will be some marketing spin designed to put off your concerns. After all they are in bed with the pharma industry and most likely the agri industry as well since they stay mum on GE food.


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## Pam in LR (Feb 16, 2012)

Mireillebc said:


> But we don't eat the cotton? What's the problem?


Cotton is probably not cultivated in your part of the world. I live in the southern US, where cotton is a very important cash crop. The pesticides are usually spread by small aircraft, so it gets in the wind. Then everyone in the area is exposed. And it gets in the soil, which is also blown around the world. Then it runs off into waterways. We're all downstream . . . And it more and more often happens that farmers sell their land to real estate developers who build homes on top of that long contaminated land.
Then, there is the issue of concern for those who have to handle the pesticides. They are at even greater risk for long term and incurable illnesses related to pesticide exposure, like Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's.
IMHO, these are big problems.


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## barbdpayne (Jan 24, 2011)

I know of the dangers of GMOs and I would love a world free of dangerous additives, but sometimes they are better than the alternatives. We have been wearing fibers made from cotton and linen and rayon and other plants for many years. We are still alive. So I agree that looking for chemical free fiber is a worthy goal, I won't get too hung up over it. Don't hate me!


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## JanieSue (Nov 30, 2011)

barbdpayne said:


> I know of the dangers of GMOs and I would love a world free of dangerous additives, but sometimes they are better than the alternatives. We have been wearing fibers made from cotton and linen and rayon and other plants for many years. We are still alive. So I agree that looking for chemical free fiber is a worthy goal, I won't get too hung up over it. Don't hate me!


I agree with you, not sure how I managed to survive from riding in a cotton wagon full of the stuff as a child. I grew up in MS and my Grandfather grew cotton, we picked it and then thought it great fun to ride to the gin on top of all the fluffy cotton. Everything has dangers and if we are that obsessed then why bother trying to knit at all.


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## luv (Feb 19, 2012)

tamarque said:


> I didn't address your comment about Mercola. Yes, I have followed him for a number of years now. He has changed his format a lot. Originally his articles were very narrowly focused on a given nutrient or medical condition. Then he changed to a more mainstream format with articles focusing on more generic and general health issues. But his old files are still available and I think he still is precise in giving his references and personal opinions. I also like some of his video'd interviews: they give us a personal sense of the people promoting an idea or protocol. He is such a techie person.
> 
> I also like that he has been so generous in funding the GMO labeling movement in both Calif and Washington. And he does encourage activism on health issues to readers. I have also gotten some good info from the blog comments and there seem to be very few obstructionists that write in so it is
> pleasant reading the comments. It is a good site.
> ...


I do and he's very informative and interesting. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## luvs2knit50 (Feb 1, 2013)

I have been looking for a nice cotton or cotton/linen mix for a summer sweater. Many of them are listed as 10/2, 16/2, etc. Is the first number like crochet cotton - 3-5-10 etc?? What is the 2nd number?? Is that type of yarn more suitable for weaving than knitting or crocheting? I have looked on WEBS & several of the sites listed here. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## ElyseKnox (Sep 16, 2011)

The problems associated with cotton are tragic and many of them seem to be well documented in this article. BUT, what is not even discussed is how, if and how much transfer there is between the skin and chemical residues from yarn or clothing. I'm not saying it does not occur, but before I assumed that wearing "non-organic" cotton was a major source of undesirable chemicals being input into my body, I would want to see studies addressing that issue.



tamarque said:


> It is also the dyes and chemicals in the fiber during processing.
> Not sure if this is the article I put on KP some time ago, but it is the one I found in my files:
> 
> http://organicclothing.blogs.com/my_weblog/2007/07/cotton-facts-be.html
> ...


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## ElyseKnox (Sep 16, 2011)

I think your points are well made. It is sooooo easy to jump on a bandwagon to 'fix' a 'wrong' or 'problem' without knowing or understanding the bigger context. It is seems that more often than not "the law of unintended consequences" circles back on us when we try to fix a "problem."



barbdpayne said:


> I know of the dangers of GMOs and I would love a world free of dangerous additives, but sometimes they are better than the alternatives. We have been wearing fibers made from cotton and linen and rayon and other plants for many years. We are still alive. So I agree that looking for chemical free fiber is a worthy goal, I won't get too hung up over it. Don't hate me!


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

barbdpayne said:


> I know of the dangers of GMOs and I would love a world free of dangerous additives, but sometimes they are better than the alternatives. We have been wearing fibers made from cotton and linen and rayon and other plants for many years. We are still alive. So I agree that looking for chemical free fiber is a worthy goal, I won't get too hung up over it. Don't hate me!


Hate you for your opinion? Of course not, but I do think it uninformed. Just because you haven't dropped dead after donning a GE cotton shirt does not mean you are not affected. 
The US is the sickest western industrialized nation in the world and it is not because we are organic. Cancer rates are skyrocketing with 1:3 people developing this disease in their life. Heart disease is rampant. Auto-immune deficiency diseases are dramatically on the rise. Not just AIDs, but RA for just one example.

Many of the chemicals used are endocrine disrupters. Many are directly carcinogenic. Many are inflammatories. The list goes on.

And what was true 50 yrs ago is no longer. DDT was rampantly used when I was a kid and I have lost at least 1 person at age 42 due to the aerial spraying in Long Island communities when she was growing up. Another friend also passed at age 52 who grew up in that same town. One died of massive cancer spread in her body and she did take care of herself. The other died form liver damage which also affected her brother. DDT was heavily used in Cotton when I grew up. And the alleged polio epidemic during my childhood, has been related to the massive exposure to DDT.

But now the toxins are even greater and cotton is GE, too boot. More glyphosate with GE, not less as the marketing spin goes. Glyphosate with other chemicals increased the disease development.

So I hope you are healthy and remain so, but it is not wise to wear blinders because is seems easier. We can all spend more upfront or we pay even more later.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

ElyseKnox said:


> I think your points are well made. It is sooooo easy to jump on a bandwagon to 'fix' a 'wrong' or 'problem' without knowing or understanding the bigger context. It is seems that more often than not "the law of unintended consequences" circles back on us when we try to fix a "problem."


Okay, running with your argument can say that chemicalizing our lives has produced great profit for the huge chemical, pharmaceutical, medical and insurance industries. There business models were about selling patentable products and controlling the public's buying practices and belief systems. Chemical agriculture can certainly be seen as the law of unintended consquences as it has stripped the land of nutrients and top soil and created dust bowls in its wake or toxic land masses that people live on.

We do know of the consequences of chemicalizing our lives on environmental, health, economic, and political levels. Our choice on a personal level is to decide on which side of the fence to sit. One can chose to promote their personal and environmental health, or continue to support practices that are known harms.


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## ElyseKnox (Sep 16, 2011)

It seems I failed to make my point clearly. I am not defending the use of chemicals. I just would want to know the amount of chemical transfer that actually occurs so as to be able to make informed choices in the present day. Please don't assume that I am for the status quo just because I seek more information on one part of the overall issue.



tamarque said:


> Okay, running with your argument can say that chemicalizing our lives has produced great profit for the huge chemical, pharmaceutical, medical and insurance industries. There business models were about selling patentable products and controlling the public's buying practices and belief systems. Chemical agriculture can certainly be seen as the law of unintended consquences as it has stripped the land of nutrients and top soil and created dust bowls in its wake or toxic land masses that people live on.
> 
> We do know of the consequences of chemicalizing our lives on environmental, health, economic, and political levels. Our choice on a personal level is to decide on which side of the fence to sit. One can chose to promote their personal and environmental health, or continue to support practices that are known harms.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

ElyseKnox said:


> It seems I failed to make my point clearly. I am not defending the use of chemicals. I just would want to know the amount of chemical transfer that actually occurs so as to be able to make informed choices in the present day. Please don't assume that I am for the status quo just because I seek more information on one part of the overall issue.


I didn't think you were defending the use of chemicals, but I approach the problem in reverse from you. There is a concept called the precautionary principle. Codex alimentarius claims to use it and if you listen, you will hear people govt quietly use it. The problem is that this principle gets used to support the ongoing use of chemicals only looking at the alternative as if it is the problem. I use that principle to say that we know the harm that chemicals cause on large levels in so many ways, so why not begin with applying the precautionary principle by avoiding the chemicals until proven otherwise.

I cannot answer your question in specific, however, we have many people on KP reporting so-called allergies to different yarns. I doubt there is any research performed on how the human body reacts to chemicals in yarn when worn on the body. But I do know there is data on health effects to exposure to chemicals in the field and the factory. And there is a significant and growing body of data on the damages from GE products to environment and health.


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## Sedona (Oct 3, 2011)

tamarque said:


> I didn't address your comment about Mercola. Yes, I have followed him for a number of years now. He has changed his format a lot. Originally his articles were very narrowly focused on a given nutrient or medical condition. Then he changed to a more mainstream format with articles focusing on more generic and general health issues. But his old files are still available and I think he still is precise in giving his references and personal opinions. I also like some of his video'd interviews: they give us a personal sense of the people promoting an idea or protocol. He is such a techie person.
> 
> I also like that he has been so generous in funding the GMO labeling movement in both Calif and Washington. And he does encourage activism on health issues to readers. I have also gotten some good info from the blog comments and there seem to be very few obstructionists that write in so it is
> pleasant reading the comments. It is a good site.
> ...


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## Deemeegee (Mar 9, 2013)

I would just like disclosures to be truthful so we can make informed decisions. For example, I just learned that 65% of lipsticks on the market still have lead in them. Lead! So now that I know, I can make an informed decision...


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## ElyseKnox (Sep 16, 2011)

Considering all what you have pointed out--and may I repeat myself--I am not in support of the status quo as far as crop pesticides, etc.

STILL, the poison is in the dosage as we well know from medicine.

If I ASSUME that I am getting a harmful dose of chemicals from a cotton garment when I am not, I cannot make an INFORMED DECISION about where I feel my dollars may effect the most overall change.

Money spent avoiding cotton garments on the assumption that they are toxic to me might be better spent (in my opinion, which is the only one that counts when it comes to my spending decisions) on more pressing issues.



tamarque said:


> Okay, running with your argument can say that chemicalizing our lives has produced great profit for the huge chemical, pharmaceutical, medical and insurance industries. There business models were about selling patentable products and controlling the public's buying practices and belief systems. Chemical agriculture can certainly be seen as the law of unintended consquences as it has stripped the land of nutrients and top soil and created dust bowls in its wake or toxic land masses that people live on.
> 
> We do know of the consequences of chemicalizing our lives on environmental, health, economic, and political levels. Our choice on a personal level is to decide on which side of the fence to sit. One can chose to promote their personal and environmental health, or continue to support practices that are known harms.


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## Deemeegee (Mar 9, 2013)

I agree, so in my opinion we need better disclosure...


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## Junelouise (Apr 29, 2011)

ElyseKnox said:


> Considering all what you have pointed out--and may I repeat myself--I am not in support of the status quo as far as crop pesticides, etc.
> 
> STILL, the poison is in the dosage as we well know from medicine.
> 
> ...


I too would like to know how much toxic chemicals we are getting from cotton or any other material for that matter. 
I also wash new clothes before I wear them, and sometimes after the first wash, with extra rinse, I can still smell the chemicals coming off some garments. One of these was thermal underwear for my 4 yr old GD. I washed them several times again. My son's socks were another chemical laden item. These are packaged in plastic bags, so you cannot tell when you buy them that they smell like the dickens!

June


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

June--all our clothes, unless 100% organic, are toxic laden.

Elyse raises her concerns based on having options that she kind of trusts. Many, if not most people begin with the mainstream, corporate reality and then question alternatives from there. We usually have the option of what we purchase if it is labeled honestly. And many chose a toxic product based on cost and availability. But, to me, that is quite different than seeking to chose non-toxic items and only giving in to the toxic ones when circumstances dictate. 

I have 100% distruct in corporate products. History has shown us over and over again how corporations make decisions--the bottom line. They only clean up their mess if held accountable. And it is also clear that our gov't if very weak in their regard. We are still waiting for Exxon to clear up their mess in Alaska 25 yrs later! 

The problem, or a main problem, is that these problems are created and dealt with a part of policy. When Monsanto says they don't give a hoot about the toxic consequences of their GE seeds and chemicals, they are stating policy. Let someone else worry about these problems but Monsanto buys the FDA/USDA and politicians. They put their people onto advisory committees and into decision-making positions so they are worried about what regulatory agencies may say. I am not trying to digress, but my point is that it is the same pretty much all over. Cotton, beef, soy, etc--it is all the same. As for chemicals, they do outgas and for very long periods of time. They are not that fixed which is what is implied in the mftr of these articles of clothing. So why not begin with a heavy skepticism about what is being sold, as opposed to trusting until there is some major bruhaha that percolates up into the public consciousness.

But Elyse, or anyone else, can make their personal choice but the basis of that choice making is what we are discussing.

And I am going to hear Jeffery Smith this evening (Institute for Responsible Technology) who is Mr. GMO incarnate. I cannot wait to see him in person.


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## Ruth Ray (Dec 31, 2012)

Reading this gave me one of THOSE experiences. The kind where you slap your head, say "DUH" and wonder "how come I never gave a thought to what may be sprayed on the cotton that was used for the yarn I'm knitting with right now for a summer weight baby blanket". Just checked the label for KnitPicks Comfy Worsted (75% Pima Cotton, 25% Acrylic).
Next time I will be more certain to shop organic!


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## dgoll (May 12, 2013)

For the scoop on soap berries:

http://www.soapnuts.pro/2014/02/24/%E2%80%A2-all-about-soap-nut-powder/


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## marosa9-1-8 (Dec 3, 2011)

your skin absorbs the toxins


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## Donnathomp (May 5, 2012)

All synthetic yarns are full of chemicals. Maybe we should just stop knitting?


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## ElyseKnox (Sep 16, 2011)

Do you use the nuts whole or grind them and add the powder to your laundry?



dgoll said:


> For the scoop on soap berries:
> 
> http://www.soapnuts.pro/2014/02/24/%E2%80%A2-all-about-soap-nut-powder/


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Thank you, tamarque, for a good topic and discussion. I plead semi-awareness and appreciate the refresher on cotton. DH is forever bringing home fruits and veggies and eating them without washing; I buy organic when it's my turn. Perhaps it should be my turn all the time when it comes to these items.....


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## BlueJay21 (Jan 4, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> Thank you, tamarque, for a good topic and discussion. I plead semi-awareness and appreciate the refresher on cotton. DH is forever bringing home fruits and veggies and eating them without washing; I buy organic when it's my turn. Perhaps it should be my turn all the time when it comes to these items.....


I do all the grocery shopping in our house, and I buy only organic food. I make 99.9% of what we eat as I do not like the ingredients on store bought packages. My grocery bill is at least twice what my friend's is, as she does not buy organic. So maybe I will have to eat less (not a bad thing) in order to cut the cost. But I will not compromise.

Thank you for this very useful article. We sometimes become too complacent with the products to hand. We should question everything. And I agree, why not start off with items that we know contain no harmful chemicals, rather than wait to see what happens when we are exposed to them.

A very good article. Thank you, again.


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## Deemeegee (Mar 9, 2013)

I put about 5 in a small muslin bag that comes with. This will do at least 8 loads...


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## brenda m (Jun 2, 2011)

Everyone will probably scream about this, but thinking you are buying all organic is just a tactic to charge more. Even if one doesn't put anything on the crops, there is still the closeness of fields. One field treated, next door labeled organic. As for DDT use when we were small, it was used here for mosquitoes. Without it, how many would have died from malaria and other diseases that were everywhere then? It's just like the news carried a story last week about measles was making a comeback because people weren't vaccinating their children.


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## Donnathomp (May 5, 2012)

BlueJay21 said:


> I do all the grocery shopping in our house, and I buy only organic food. I make 99.9% of what we eat as I do not like the ingredients on store bought packages. My grocery bill is at least twice what my friend's is, as she does not buy organic. So maybe I will have to eat less (not a bad thing) in order to cut the cost. But I will not compromise.
> 
> Thank you for this very useful article. We sometimes become too complacent with the products to hand. We should question everything. And I agree, why not start off with items that we know contain no harmful chemicals, rather than wait to see what happens when we are exposed to them.
> 
> A very good article. Thank you, again.


I completely support you personal decision
to buy orgamic. but did you know there are some fruits 
and veggies that it's not necessary to buy organic. 
If you go to the dr. Oz website, you can see
which ones. The thick skinned ones are quite 
safe without being organic.


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## Junelouise (Apr 29, 2011)

I am trying (slowly) to go more natural products. My laundry detergent is NatureClean, my bar soap is unscented goat's milk. I only buy beeswax candles or soy (but now soy is harmful?). I buy organic white tea from China (but can we trust anything from there?) I will not buy Kashi products anymore as I read they contain GMO ingredients...the list goes on!
I think paranoia is setting in! LOL

June


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

dgoll said:


> For the scoop on soap berries:
> 
> http://www.soapnuts.pro/2014/02/24/%E2%80%A2-all-about-soap-nut-powder/


Thanks. Interesting article. Need to read more.
How expensive are these soap berries compared to, say, Seventh Generation?


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Junelouise said:


> I am trying (slowly) to go more natural products. My laundry detergent is NatureClean, my bar soap is unscented goat's milk. I only buy beeswax candles or soy (but now soy is harmful?). I buy organic white tea from China (but can we trust anything from there?) I will not buy Kashi products anymore as I read they contain GMO ingredients...the list goes on!
> I think paranoia is setting in! LOL
> 
> June


Cannot speak about White Tea from China, but chinese teas have the highest level of fluoride which we do not want. Indian teas are much better for lower flouride levels.


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## Deemeegee (Mar 9, 2013)

Ewg.org also has lists that tell which are more important to buy organic.


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## BlueJay21 (Jan 4, 2013)

Donnathomp said:


> I completely support you personal decision
> to buy orgamic. but did you know there are some fruits
> and veggies that it's not necessary to buy organic.
> If you go to the dr. Oz website, you can see
> ...


Yes, I know, Donna, I just choose not to take any chances. I do most of my shopping in one store, and will only go to another store if I can't get what I need there. I'm basically lazy and I hate shopping. So the fewer stores I have to go to the happier I am. But thank you for your comment.

What I am thinking, though, is that the thick skinned fruits are maybe grown in soil that has been pesticided (my word) and so some of these pesticides could have found their way into the fruit. So to be safe, I buy organic. I find the flavour better, too.


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## Donnathomp (May 5, 2012)

BlueJay21 said:


> Yes, I know, Donna, I just choose not to take any chances. I do most of my shopping in one store, and will only go to another store if I can't get what I need there. I'm basically lazy and I hate shopping. So the fewer stores I have to go to the happier I am. But thank you for your comment.
> 
> What I am thinking, though, is that the thick skinned fruits are maybe grown in soil that has been pesticided (my word) and so some of these pesticides could have found their way into the fruit. So to be safe, I buy organic. I find the flavour better, too.


what you say is true, but according to what I heard on Dr. Oz, the pesticides do not penetrate thick skins. But, go for organic if you can.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> Thank you, tamarque, for a good topic and discussion. I plead semi-awareness and appreciate the refresher on cotton. DH is forever bringing home fruits and veggies and eating them without washing; I buy organic when it's my turn. Perhaps it should be my turn all the time when it comes to these items.....


Methinks you are right SAMkewel! We do take a lot of risks in this country without thinking. Marketing is a billion dollar industry and they do it very well for the corporations, and politicians. (Remember The Selling of the President--the expose of Nixon using Madison Avenue to create his image and sell him to the public. And it worked!).


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## BlueJay21 (Jan 4, 2013)

Junelouise said:


> I am trying (slowly) to go more natural products. My laundry detergent is NatureClean, my bar soap is unscented goat's milk. I only buy beeswax candles or soy (but now soy is harmful?). I buy organic white tea from China (but can we trust anything from there?) I will not buy Kashi products anymore as I read they contain GMO ingredients...the list goes on!
> I think paranoia is setting in! LOL
> 
> June


Hey, June. Keep on being paranoid. I have a long, long list of products I won't buy. People think I am crazy. For instance, my husband came home with two chocolate bars the other day. I said he could have both as they contain palm oil, something I won't buy. We have to make a stand somewhere. And I love chocolate. It takes a while to be "perfect." But we keep nibbling away and one day the world will again be a great place in which to spend our time.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Donnathomp said:


> what you say is true, but according to what I heard on Dr. Oz, the pesticides do not penetrate thick skins. But, go for organic if you can.


My contrary 2 cents again. Dr. Oz has presented some pretty bizarre twisted information and has been known to turn tail on an issue in a heart beat. So he is not my guru. If he said thick skin plant foods are safe non-organic, this proves my point. None of them are safe. The statement should have been safer--you know those 2 little letters that qualify the meaning.

Now there is also chemical fertilizers which do get into the food.

And chemical agriculture is producing food that is increasingly deficient in nutrition. I noticed this in raw carrots, a favorite of mine, decades ago way before we had an organic movement. I would look for certain brands of carrots for their flavor. Of course that was due to soil health. I know the discussion is on toxicity, but had to throw in this point. As nutrition value decreases, the impact of toxicity increases as the body loses ability to flush the poisons out. So it is all connected.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

tamarque said:


> My contrary 2 cents again. Dr. Oz has presented some pretty bizarre twisted information and has been known to turn tail on an issue in a heart beat. So he is not my guru. If he said thick skin plant foods are safe non-organic, this proves my point. None of them are safe. The statement should have been safer--you know those 2 little letters that qualify the meaning.
> 
> Now there is also chemical fertilizers which do get into the food.
> 
> And chemical agriculture is producing food that is increasingly deficient in nutrition. I noticed this in raw carrots, a favorite of mine, decades ago way before we had an organic movement. I would look for certain brands of carrots for their flavor. Of course that was due to soil health. I know the discussion is on toxicity, but had to throw in this point. As nutrition value decreases, the impact of toxicity increases as the body loses ability to flush the poisons out. So it is all connected.


I had come to the same conclusion regarding Dr. Oz. Could it be that money corrupts?


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

BlueJay21 said:


> Hey, June. Keep on being paranoid. I have a long, long list of products I won't buy. People think I am crazy. For instance, my husband came home with two chocolate bars the other day. I said he could have both as they contain palm oil, something I won't buy. We have to make a stand somewhere. And I love chocolate. It takes a while to be "perfect." But we keep nibbling away and one day the world will again be a great place in which to spend our time.


I don't think it paranoia. There are very good reasons to be suspicious and fearful of what we are being sold. The information is so available for anyone to access if they are interested and open to hearing. Paranoia? Heck no--just honest and realistic.


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## ksfsimkins (Jan 18, 2013)

I noticed that someone posted the comment that we don't eat cotton. You are misinformed! Nearly every product on the shelves of every store in the world has cottonseed oil in it. Even Planters peanuts has cottonseed oil. They can sell peanut oil for more than what they pay for cottonseed oil so they use cottonseed oil. If a product has may contain: soybean/palm/ vegetable oil or cottonseed oil you can bet that they are using cottonseed oil! Why do I know this? Cottonseed oil makes my fibromyalgia symptoms worse than any other edible product on this planet. I suggest that you start reading all the labels of every product that you purchase!


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

ksfsimkins said:


> I noticed that someone posted the comment that we don't eat cotton. You are misinformed! Nearly every product on the shelves of every store in the world has cottonseed oil in it. Even Planters peanuts has cottonseed oil. They can sell peanut oil for more than what they pay for cottonseed oil so they use cottonseed oil. If a product has may contain: soybean/palm/ vegetable oil or cottonseed oil you can bet that they are using cottonseed oil! Why do I know this? Cottonseed oil makes my fibromyalgia symptoms worse than any other edible product on this planet. I suggest that you start reading all the labels of every product that you purchase!


good point. thanx for reminding us of that.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> I had come to the same conclusion regarding Dr. Oz. Could it be that money corrupts?


http://www.knittingparadise.com/compose_reply.jsp?topicnum=250838&postnum=5145898#


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## ksfsimkins (Jan 18, 2013)

Another thing that people do not think about is what hybridizing has done to the food supply. I can eat the old fashioned non hybrid corn but the hybridized corn makes me break out in hives and quit breathing. They hybridize for several things. Bigger yields, not being affected by weed killers and to thwart insects and fungus, etc. By hybridizing the normal crop they increase the naturally occurring chemicals in the plant that make the plant taste nasty and unripe to an insect. (It is that sour taste that you get when you bit into an unripe apple.) This natural chemical allows the fruit to develop without being eaten before the seed inside is viable. Science is wonderful but often short sighted when making changes to the world around us. By the way, my husband's family have been farmers for many generations and my father was a crop duster so I have done a lot of research on these subjects. The chemicals that I have been exposed to have made my life miserable when it comes to my health. Be a label reader to know what you are eating.


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## BlueJay21 (Jan 4, 2013)

tamarque said:


> I don't think it paranoia. There are very good reasons to be suspicious and fearful of what we are being sold. The information is so available for anyone to access if they are interested and open to hearing. Paranoia? Heck no--just honest and realistic.


tamarque, I was being somewhat facetious when I said go on being paranoid. I meant just keep doing what you are doing. If you think it is bad (or less good) then go for something better. (That is one drawback to the written word. One cannot properly emphasize words and phrases.)

You are right, of course. We should be suspicious and fearful of what we are being told and sold. The information is out there, but sometimes people don't know any different and don't know that the information is out there. And if they do, sometimes they don't know where to look.

I think back to when I was a child, long before all these chemicals that we feed our plants. I wonder how many of today's youngsters will live to be 90 or 100. (I'm not 90 yet but I keep reading in the obits of people who have lived that long.)


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Bluejay21--sorry I missed your sarcasm. You are right, the written word fails us at times.

As for longevity, we are not living as long. Recent data is saying the newer generations will not only earn less than their parents, but will be much sicker, and not live as long. These are American stats only. We have greater infant mortality, too. So much for the medical propaganda mill.

I just returned from a talk by Jeffery Smith that was inspiring. He spoke on GMOs, his specialty area. Are you familiar with his work. I have seen his film and read some of his work, but never heard him in person. What a fun, dynamic person. Super bright with infinite amounts of study data in his head, but very down to earth and connected with the audience which was mainly young college students and a bunch of old activists like myself, about 2-300 am guessing. And I enjoyed his raising the point of GE cotton which gives us the toxic, cheap cottonseed oil which was mentioned earlier in this discussion.

And Russia just banned GMOs!!!!! I heard they banned GE corn, but hadn't heard it was an across the board ban. 60 countries mandate labeling of GMOs with many of them having bans. But this country pretends that GE food is equivalent to naturally bred and raised produce.


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## Junelouise (Apr 29, 2011)

ksfsimkins said:


> I noticed that someone posted the comment that we don't eat cotton. You are misinformed! Nearly every product on the shelves of every store in the world has cottonseed oil in it. Even Planters peanuts has cottonseed oil. They can sell peanut oil for more than what they pay for cottonseed oil so they use cottonseed oil. If a product has may contain: soybean/palm/ vegetable oil or cottonseed oil you can bet that they are using cottonseed oil! Why do I know this? Cottonseed oil makes my fibromyalgia symptoms worse than any other edible product on this planet. I suggest that you start reading all the labels of every product that you purchase!


I knew about cottonseed oil years ago..they really like to put it in cheap cookies..mainly the gingersnaps that I love but now don't buy!

June


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## BlueJay21 (Jan 4, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Bluejay21--sorry I missed your sarcasm. You are right, the written word fails us at times.
> 
> As for longevity, we are not living as long. Recent data is saying the newer generations will not only earn less than their parents, but will be much sicker, and not live as long. These are American stats only. We have greater infant mortality, too. So much for the medical propaganda mill.
> 
> ...


Yeah for Russia. I do wish that Canada would get on the band wagon and ban all GMOs. The problem is that we don't really know what is a modified ingredient any more. That is why I buy organic and make most of what we eat. That way I know what is in the food and that there are no GMOs present.

I am not familiar with Jeffery Smith's work, but I will look out for it.

(I was being facetious, not sarcastic. "facetious -- joking or jesting; not serious." There was no harm intended. If I had said it orally, I probably would have had a little chuckle in my voice. Anyway, I thought she was right on, hence the facetiousness. Ah, the written word. Useful medium but not perfect.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Bluejay21--Jeffery Smith's site is Institute for Responsible Technology. He offers a non-GMO shopping guide as a free download. There is also an app for smart phones for those addicted to this technology. His book Seeds of Deception has been a big success for people wanting to learn more. Sometimes his documentary material can be watched online for free; otherwise you can buy the DVD. His work has been major in creating awareness and activism against GE production.

I hope his prediction last nite is correct: within 5 yrs we will see GE defeated in food. 

What he/everyone needs to look at is the use of GMOs in vitamin supplements and medicines. Most Vit C is made from corn and that is GE. So here we are trying to take care of ourselves and are being secretly manipulated into using this stuff. I try to research every supplement for it GE content.

And of course you are correct that buying certified organic is our only protection and never buying processed foods because of all the secretly included ingredients. Even coming from a very lazy cook like myself, I will support fresh cooked foods where we can control what goes into it. 

FYI, last year China, of infamous fame with toxic baby milk and dog food, refused to accept 3? huge containers of corn last year due to it being GE! Go figure. Have to love people's contradictions.


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

"Organic" is such a rip-off. There are so many different definitions as to what is organic, it'll blow your mind.


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## ElyseKnox (Sep 16, 2011)

Agreed. But, there does not seem to be much willingness on this thread to acknowledge any opinion unless it condemns big business.



crochetknit Deb said:


> "Organic" is such a rip-off. There are so many different definitions as to what is organic, it'll blow your mind.


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

If we Americans are so concerned with what food we eat, than why are so many of us so fat? So far I've lost 65 lbs. And do not eat organic.


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

ElyseKnox said:


> Agreed. But, there does not seem to be much willingness on this thread to acknowledge any opinion unless it condemns big business.


Amen.


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## ElyseKnox (Sep 16, 2011)

If you want an eye-opener about science, how little the man on the street understands it and how easy it is to manipulate opinions, look at this video, starting at 36:26 about an science experiment. Listen to what 43 out of 50 people agreed to ban:








crochetknit Deb said:


> If we Americans are so concerned with what food we eat, than why are so many of us so fat? So far I've lost 65 lbs. And do not eat organic.


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## BlueJay21 (Jan 4, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Bluejay21--Jeffery Smith's site is Institute for Responsible Technology. He offers a non-GMO shopping guide as a free download. There is also an app for smart phones for those addicted to this technology. His book Seeds of Deception has been a big success for people wanting to learn more. Sometimes his documentary material can be watched online for free; otherwise you can buy the DVD. His work has been major in creating awareness and activism against GE production.
> 
> I hope his prediction last nite is correct: within 5 yrs we will see GE defeated in food.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this, tamarque. I will check out Jeffery Smith's web site. I have just checked the bottle for my Vit C. I usually buy a Canadian product from Jamieson. I started buying this one because Jamieson products are not tested on animals. But I see that under "also contains" it lists Brazilian palm tree wax. I don't know anything about Brazilian palm tree wax. Something else to research.

It is becoming more and more difficult to be an ethical consumer. But I will not buy anything from China. Maybe, though, China is rethinking its food policy re GMO. I still don't trust them and will not buy anything made in China unless there is no alternative. And I wouldn't touch food from China with a barge pole.


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

ElyseKnox said:


> If you want an eye-opener about science, how little the man on the street understands it and how easy it is to manipulate opinions, look at this video, starting at 36:26 about an science experiment. Listen to what 43 out of 50 people agreed to ban:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

ElyseKnox: Yep, they're ignoring us. How 'bout them Yanks?


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

GMO will not be listed on the bottles of vitamins unless Canada has a GMO labeling law. I find out by calling the companies and asking for their certifications.

As for organic--there are specific standards to be met to call something organic. There are not many different standards. What is confusing is the word 'natural.' There is no legal definition of that word as applied to food. It is meaningless, so for those who are being so critical, I think there is a learning curve here.


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

Does "organic" apply to fertilizers? Or is that "natural"? Remember when all we had was "manure"? Ah, good times, good times, good times. Around the early 1900's.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

crochetknit Deb said:


> Does "organic" apply to fertilizers? Or is that "natural"? Remember when all we had was "manure"? Ah, good times, good times, good times. Around the early 1900's.


Actually there is an issue. Fertilizers can be many different things. Some are plain toxic chemicals. Others are real elements such as sulphur, or made from environmental rock like rock phosphate. And some is real manure. But even here there is a big issue with manure from animals that eat GMO feed. There has been virtually no research on what happens to GMOs that pass thru the digestive system of animals and wind up in the manure. I have found just 1 study in 3 yrs of calling various organizations concerned with this issue and just last month found one small study from a Univ Ag school in Canada. And that one is limited in scope. 
They say, on the one GE microbe studied, that depending on how the manure is composed, it will break down over time. But it cannot be spread raw or even partially composed. GE seeds not digested are even slower to compost. Unfortunately, the organic standards allow these contaminated manures to be used in organic farming. Some of the organic farmers in my area use this manure as they cannot get enough manure from organically raised animals.

Someone should start an organic manure farm. It would go over big time I think.

Many fertilizers are clearly not what would fit the organic label. Further, the Organic standard actually does define what can/cannot be used. And some companies produce a fertilizer line that is stated to be organic. OMNI is an independent certifying organization that these companies will use to test their product. So if you see on the label OMNI certified it has undergone testing for toxins and GMOs. I don't use manure from the farms around because of the GMO and other chemicals used in raising the animals. I use leaves and purchase OMNI certified packaged fertilizers as do several of the farmers. They are the ones who introduced me to this particular line.

I bet you were asking a bit tongue in cheek and didn't really expect such an answer.


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## BlueJay21 (Jan 4, 2013)

tamarque said:


> GMO will not be listed on the bottles of vitamins unless Canada has a GMO labeling law. I find out by calling the companies and asking for their certifications.
> 
> As for organic--there are specific standards to be met to call something organic. There are not many different standards. What is confusing is the word 'natural.' There is no legal definition of that word as applied to food. It is meaningless, so for those who are being so critical, I think there is a learning curve here.


Hear! Hear! Re "Natural"


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Actually there is an issue. Fertilizers can be many different things. Some are plain toxic chemicals. Others are real elements such as sulphur, or made from environmental rock like rock phosphate. And some is real manure. But even here there is a big issue with manure from animals that eat GMO feed. There has been virtually no research on what happens to GMOs that pass thru the digestive system of animals and wind up in the manure. I have found just 1 study in 3 yrs of calling various organizations concerned with this issue and just last month found one small study from a Univ Ag school in Canada. And that one is limited in scope.
> They say, on the one GE microbe studied, that depending on how the manure is composed, it will break down over time. But it cannot be spread raw or even partially composed. GE seeds not digested are even slower to compost. Unfortunately, the organic standards allow these contaminated manures to be used in organic farming. Some of the organic farmers in my area use this manure as they cannot get enough manure from organically raised animals.
> 
> Someone should start an organic manure farm. It would go over big time I think.
> ...


Geez, now I can't stop thinking about how an organic manure farm could be set up and run, what safeguards would need to be enacted, etc., etc. It's a fascinating challenge, and I wish I was young enough to take it on.


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## BlueJay21 (Jan 4, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> Geez, now I can't stop thinking about how an organic manure farm could be set up and run, what safeguards would need to be enacted, etc., etc. It's a fascinating challenge, and I wish I was young enough to take it on.


If we lived closer, we could do it together.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

BlueJay21 said:


> If we lived closer, we could do it together.


That sounds good except that I think we'd need a much larger "group" than the two of us :~). Or at least our own "MAC" (Manure Action Committee) to finance the project.


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## BlueJay21 (Jan 4, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> That sounds good except that I think we'd need a much larger "group" than the two of us :~). Or at least our own "MAC" (Manure Action Committee) to finance the project.


We'd just have to find a third party with deep pockets. I bet somebody will do something like this.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Or set it up as a co-op.

There some people setting up a compost business in my town. They think it will be organic but they gave me information that did not check out about GMOs degrading in compost.

If a manure--> compost farm/business were set up, I bet you could drum up some interest in testing out the biodegradability of manure from animals fed GMOs. I have found only 1 study that was limited and it suggests more work would need to be done. Wonder what grant $$$ would be available. There is a very young man in my area that married rich and is now wanting to run for Congress. He is going around and investing in green businesses. That kind of person would be useful.

BTW, here is an interview with Jeffery Smith. It is basically the talk he gave last Monday that I attended.


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