# creating a pattern



## Tracey24 (Dec 31, 2011)

I often marvel at all the wonderful designs that people have created. I found a lovely stitch design that I would like to have a go at turning into a garment and put onto a web page. Does any person know, if you are allowed to do such a thing? I am so confused by the copyright laws. The pattern was many years ago incorporated into an adult pattern that I think would look nice on a baby cardigan. If any body that has made a pattern up I would appreciate any advise as the more I read the more confusing at appears


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## sweetsue (Aug 12, 2011)

If you make a few subtle changes (which of course you will) it can be your own.
Here is a site that gives you options for creating your own graphs.
http://domestikgoddess.com/3-easy-ways-to-chart-a-knitting-pattern/


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

No! "subtle changes" are not enough to satisfy copyright laws. Take the time to FULLY research copyright law. If your "design" was "inspired" by that of another....you may well be committing copyright infringement.

Currently I hold copyright on about 50 designs, you better believe I will do everything possible to protect that right.

This may not sound very "nice" but those of us who rely on our designs to pay our bills, will do everything to protect our intellectual property.

PLEASE refer to valid, US copyright law websites! With all due respect sue...minor changes will NOT absolve anyone from copyright infringement. Seek the advice of a copyright attorney not people on websites for accurate information.


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## sweetsue (Aug 12, 2011)

Except Tracey is in the UK and I am in Oz. Not sure how it all works so probably better just to make it for yourself and not share.


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## 29426 (Jul 26, 2011)

courier770 said:


> No! "subtle changes" are not enough to satisfy copyright laws. Take the time to FULLY research copyright law. If your "design" was "inspired" by that of another....you may well be committing copyright infringement.
> 
> Currently I hold copyright on about 50 designs, you better believe I will do everything possible to protect that right.
> 
> ...


If one has a booklet of different stitch patterns--that's all. No garments, no afghan patterns, no baby blanket, does that mean you cannot combine and use these to designs to create your own garment or afghan?


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## sweetsue (Aug 12, 2011)

If that were the case, anne of green gables, there would be no designers out there and no knitted garments.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Please take a few moments to actually read copyright law. As a copyright holder on many patterns and copyright that does not apply to knitting, I have an attorney representing my interests. Don't try to interpret the law on your own, just obey it.


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## Tracey24 (Dec 31, 2011)

Thank you for your reply. A chart sounds a good idea to have a play about with.


sweetsue said:


> If you make a few subtle changes (which of course you will) it can be your own.
> Here is a site that gives you options for creating your own graphs.
> http://domestikgoddess.com/3-easy-ways-to-chart-a-knitting-pattern/


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## Tracey24 (Dec 31, 2011)

Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to raise concerns I was hoping someone who has a download site would have some input. It' definitely something that needs a lot of investigation in to. It was the actual stitch I was looking at and I have noticed that it is a fairly common everyday one, like say a cable is. I fully understand the need to want to protect as precious pattern that you have painstakingly designed. I think a few letters etc sounds like a good starting place. Who knows, maybe I will one day have one out there with those lovely but 'annoying' words 'copyright'  


courier770 said:


> No! "subtle changes" are not enough to satisfy copyright laws. Take the time to FULLY research copyright law. If your "design" was "inspired" by that of another....you may well be committing copyright infringement.
> 
> Currently I hold copyright on about 50 designs, you better believe I will do everything possible to protect that right.
> 
> ...


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## Tracey24 (Dec 31, 2011)

Thank you all for your comments. A very interesting and a confusing subject. What you need to realise, that if I was clever enough to do tis, then I would have exactly 3 buyers.. My mon, nan and husband (for sympathy) lol


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## Tracey24 (Dec 31, 2011)

That's my point. I see many items out there, with stitches I've seen many times before. Who exactly owns that exact stitch. How far back do we go 


anne of green gables said:


> courier770 said:
> 
> 
> > No! "subtle changes" are not enough to satisfy copyright laws. Take the time to FULLY research copyright law. If your "design" was "inspired" by that of another....you may well be committing copyright infringement.
> ...


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## Tracey24 (Dec 31, 2011)

That has been going around my brain all day 


sweetsue said:


> If that were the case, anne of green gables, there would be no designers out there and no knitted garments.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

If you are not copying someone elses pattern or garment, then you can use whatever stitch you want and design your garment. There would be nothing designed if we couldn't use stitches that have already been used.


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## cablenut (Oct 19, 2011)

I have a stitch dictionary that was printed in France in 1986, as it turns out, but nowhere on there is there a copyright date. 
Maybe there's another system there, but I'm still learning.
Many stitches are over 50 years old, and many even older than that, by hundreds of years. 
Our international neighbors are right to point out that copyright law is predominantly a USA thing, with International copyright law only valid in some countries. 
Point is, though, we have to pay attention to what's becoming law in internet venues. That info is slow to get around, if it is even agreed-upon yet.
From what I can tell, and I'm no lawyer, go ahead and design your garment. Make notes as to who inspired what, and where (if any) you got various parts. 
Next, I'd ask yarn companies what their standard is. Once they answer you can decide who to go with, or whether to publish independently, if you're in safe territory. These companies, as you may already know, provide patterns and some are free -probably for that reason. Others qualify to be printed and sold or offered on sites for sale or free. Your choice, once you know the details. 
At the very least, you'll have a pattern to your liking, for your own personal use -and there's nothing illegal about that.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

"methods" are not copyrighted..such as the basic stitches "knit" or "purl".

Think of it this way, as a well known writer once said "all authors have the same basic tools, 26 letters of the alphabet, it's all about arranging them in the right way".

Such is the basic premise of knitting pattern copyright, the method of knitting is not copyrightable but the patterns that create designs ARE. Let's not forget that many of us make our living doing this. Just as writers make their living writing, though they did not invent the words they use.

Copyright law is very, very clear, it's not a personal issue, it's not up to yarn companies, it's not up to personal interpretation either. Each country has it's own copyright laws. They exist for a reason. Copyright protects the intellectual property of a host of professions equally. From authors to song writers to designers of knitting/crochet patterns. 

Since a portion of MY income is derived from income that I receive from my designs, I can tell you this is a very serious matter. ONCE, someone stole from me, copyrighted material, I had no problem bringing them into federal court to defend MY property. It cost them very dearly in the long run. It would have been much cheaper for them to pay me to begin with. Instead they were ordered in court, to pay me thousands of dollars in damages, were ordered to pay punitive damages and were ordered to pay my legal costs.

US copyright law is very clear on these matters and the US site on copyright law is available for all to see, read and understand. Our courts, in their infinite wisdom, have crafted a very clear set of laws to protect the intelligent property of other. You may not like the copyright laws, you may not even agree with them, you are however expected to abide by them. Failure to do so has some very dire consequences.


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## cablenut (Oct 19, 2011)

More good points. Would you happen to have a few favorite sites you could recommend for folks with this same question? Yes copyright for knitters. It's really excellent that folks are asking.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Just google US Copyright Law, you will find the US government site that has all of the information you need. Do not take the advice of sites that have cropped up recently with the disclaimer that they are not lawyers and will bear no responsibility for their advice...get the information straight from the horses mouth.


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## gmcmullen (Dec 29, 2011)

Here are a couple of links you may what to check out regarding copyrighting your patterns. The article on knitty.com has a Q&A section that is very informative.

http://knittingforprofit.com/blog/an-update-on-knitting-pattern-copyrights/

http://knitty.com/ISSUEfall03/FEATcopyright.html

http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml

Best of luck with your creativity and pattern creation.


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## cablenut (Oct 19, 2011)

There are problems with simple answers like that. There's a different set of copyright guidelines for fine art, for imagery, for crafts, and for written instructions. It gets so complicated. That's why I'm asking if there's a particular site you prefer, that is spot on to this topic.
Patents are for the ideas. If you came up with, say, a kind of garment or accessory no one had ever made before, you'd want to patent it. I've done that. They expire unless you renew them.
...
Copyrights are more for the stuff that can be printed... like instruction- with photos included or not. 
Derivatives apply to artwork and imagery... I don't know if there's any protection against derivative works in knitting -but I haven't heard of any yet. However if a knitted piece infringed on a cartoonist or other artist's work by making a knitted copy/derivative of the original, they could find themselves in court -or being ordered to destroy it. Exception is for educational purposes.
You can see that it's not being policed very well at the present time.
Yet for a fine artist, there's automatic copyright from the date of creation, for 70 years past the artist's lifetime. If you want to be certain its attributed to you, those are filed with Library of Congress, believe it or not. But that's fine art, not knitting. Different bunch of laws...
So, I ask for a reason. These gals could be searching for an awfully long time to find specific links. I would think someone who is making a living from the process would have the info handy.


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## cablenut (Oct 19, 2011)

Thanks!


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## HandyFamily (Sep 30, 2011)

It looks like there is no international copyright low, applicable to knitting... 
Now, don't get me wrong - I make designs and I would hate to see a few stitches changed and my patterns published this way. On the other hand, if someone find inspiration in something I made and significantly changed it... well, everybody find inspiration somewhere.
Tracey, since you are in UK, not USA, I'd say you are all right - but you can always just check for a EU country that had not certificated the ACTA (or something like that it is called, right?) (not even sure it has anything to do with knitting, but... just in case). I thing at least half the countries - and perhaps more - have not. 
And, of course, be sure to make significant changes - not just make it in another size, for example, so that you can moray, in your own heart, call it yours.
Good luck!


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## mknitter (Aug 4, 2011)

Yes, I also have been trying to find out more information. I live in Canada and even contacted a copyright lawyer here - to no avail. The issue is still clear as mud. I like to design my own knitwear, but need to know if the stitch patterns published in books are copyrightable. I don't want to use someone else's garment patterns, but if you can't use the stitch patterns ( i.e. lace, cable, knit, purl, etc.) to make your own garment patterns, then what's the point?


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## Schipperke (Nov 12, 2011)

There are many copyright free designs out there and they can be used how you wish, obviously. I think that some things that have copyright become 'available' after so many years, but also I have used copyright designs but only made one thing for my own personal use. I can't sell it or, as they put it, make monetary gain, but let's face it, where knitting is concerned, what has not been done before and maybe copyright not been attached to it. Knitting, sewing, embroidery, all have been done for centuries, therefore, someone applying copyright to a design they think they have come up with, may have been done originally 300 years ago. Who's to say???


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

Copyright actually started in the UK at the beginning of the eighteenth century, so it's been around for a while now and has adapted and evolved over the years. If you are arranging stitches that have been in the public domain for longer than anyone can remember, such as a moss stitch panel, followed by a cable over six stitches, followed by a section in trinity stitch across the width of a piece, that is your own design. Nobody owns moss stitch or basket stitch, slipping three stitches to a cable needle to make a crossover, or rib, these are deemed to be basic stitches and common knowledge.

A very basic jumper in stocking stitch with minimal shaping and a V or crew neck is not subject to copyright, it is deemed to be 'common knowledge' too, there are only so many variations to dide for neck and decrease evenly either side, the courts have recognised this. When you start putting a unique picture or arrangement of stitches on an item so that it becomes unique, that's when it becomes copyrightable. 

There is nothing to stop anyone from taking elements from other patterns to make an item for their own personal use, that's why we all buy patterns in the first place. Whether or not you can claim the design for yourself and post or publish it as such, very much depends on how much of it is truly your own. 

It can pay to ask the designer, some are quite happy to see their motifs used by others and will give permission, some won't. If it's the latter, you need to decide whether you are willing to go to court to let them settle the dispute.

Hope that helps
Dave


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## andyjmcc (Feb 26, 2012)

I have seen patterns I have written show up on Ravelry attributed to someone else and copyrighted!!!!!
I've heard that it is an iffy area to copyright knitting and crochet patterns--and that lots of the copyrights are just hopeful warnings that don't hold water.


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## LynneA (Oct 2, 2011)

OK, no information to back me up, but I am quite certain stitch patterns are a very different thing from knitting patterns. If stitch patterns were copyrighted, no one could sell any garment pattern, not even yarn companies.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

LynneA said:


> OK, no information to back me up, but I am quite certain stitch patterns are a very different thing from knitting patterns. If stitch patterns were copyrighted, no one could sell any garment pattern, not even yarn companies.


Standard repeat stitch patterns are deemed to be in the public domain, most have been around for well over a hundred years. It would be impossible for anyone to claim, "Rib two and a half inches for waistband", was in any way an original pattern instruction!

However, if a precise stitch pattern created a unique relief picture, of a helicopter for example, it would be treated as though it were a monochrome picture. The question frequently relates to scale, complexity and originality, that's where one starts to need legal advice from experts in the area of intellectual property rights.

Dave


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## GudrunM (Feb 17, 2012)

thanks a bunch for this site, it is wonderful. I just created a pattern on normal graph paper and I see now that won't work. i clicked on knitting graphp paper and a shopping site came up. I guess I am missing something. I will google knitting graph paper and I will find it......I hope.


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## LynneA (Oct 2, 2011)

Dave, that makes sense. I have worked as an artist and am aware how very difficult it is to protect one's work.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

GudrunM said:


> thanks a bunch for this site, it is wonderful. I just created a pattern on normal graph paper and I see now that won't work. i clicked on knitting graphp paper and a shopping site came up. I guess I am missing something. I will google knitting graph paper and I will find it......I hope.


Try:

http://www.sweaterscapes.com/lcharts3.htm

for printable knitting graph paper at a variety of aspect ratios.

Hope that helps
Dave


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## mknitter (Aug 4, 2011)

Thank you, Fireball Dave. As mentioned, I wish to incorporate published stitch patterns such as lace and cable, etc., not graphics, into my designs. Do you know if I can use the same wording for the stitch patterns, eg. k2, yo, ssk, k2tog, etc.? Or is the actual wording of the stitch pattern copyrightable? Do I have to make up my own abbreviations and graphic sympols for charts?


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

LynneA said:


> Dave, that makes sense. I have worked as an artist and am aware how very difficult it is to protect one's work.


A lot of it is 'common sense', with knitting there are a few grey areas relating to what constitutes a basic stitch. But if you think of a charted pattern for a picture, for example, cutting a section out and slapping your name on it, is pretty much the same as cutting the artist's signature off a painting and putting your own in its place. That's how the UK courts have chosen to interpret it.

Dave


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## diobsession (Jun 29, 2011)

I have always found this subject to be interesting. No matter what group it comes up on there is a difference of opinion. I am a patternaholic.
I have tons of old and new patterns. Since I have been inerested in the same kind of patterns for years I often find it interesting to see that people have copied patterns from the past and call them copyrighted to themselves. Then post bold statements about not using THEIR pattern.
If I were a designer and posted free patterns I would not have any expectation of what is done with it. A note saying don't sell anything made from this pattern is impossible to follow up. That pattern could be all over the world in seconds. Unless I was doing patterns as part of my income the only reason I would copyright a pattern would be to prevent someone from selling what I offered free.


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## moke (Oct 8, 2011)

Well this is getting very confusing . to me.. a knitting stitch, that has been used for many years, in as many different articles as you can name...and on the web in every venue you can imagine...and under free patterns...is available for all..But a design that is copywrighted, i e...slippers, sweaters, whatever, is another matter. am I now supposed to get permission to knit or purl? or make winter lace, or fan and feather, into what i want? I have seen many many many copywrighted patterns that are so similar, that i wonder at the legalities of trying to prove you invented it first. wow...this is a touchy topic.


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## LynneA (Oct 2, 2011)

Moke, only if you sell it.


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## nanaof3 (Sep 17, 2011)

courier 770...First of all, I understand this is a very sensitive subject to you, that is apparent, but Tracey 24 asked about a STICTH design not a design for a garment.


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## joycevv (Oct 13, 2011)

Surely stitch patterns that are available in many different dictionaries have not been copyrighted. If you took any uncopyrighted, freely distributed simple knitting design (of the many hundreds that are available), did a few adjustments of your own and incorporated an interesting stitch pattern, no one is going to accuse you of copyright violation. There is no need for a copyright lawyer, unless you plan to charge for your design and want to get a copyright of your own.


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## mknitter (Aug 4, 2011)

Actually, if you read the information in the front of the stitch dictionaries, it states that the book is copyrighted. Therefore, the question is being asked if the individual stitch patterns are considered to be copyrighted? If so, is it the wording (k2, k2tog, ssk), the arrangement of the wording, the graphics in a chart, or the concept (i.e. the appearance of the stitch pattern)? What is actually copyrighted? Can we use these stitch patterns in garment patterns that we want to sell?


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

mknitter said:


> Thank you, Fireball Dave. As mentioned, I wish to incorporate published stitch patterns such as lace and cable, etc., not graphics, into my designs. Do you know if I can use the same wording for the stitch patterns, eg. k2, yo, ssk, k2tog, etc.? Or is the actual wording of the stitch pattern copyrightable? Do I have to make up my own abbreviations and graphic sympols for charts?


Many of the stitch names such as 'basket stitch' or 'trinity stitch' have been around for as long as the stitch. The symbols for charts are standard and a list of the most used abbreviations and chart symbols can be found in many stitch reference books as well as online. The American organisation _The Craft Yarn Council_ has a good resource of standard symbols and abbreviations. If you are going to publish your pattern internationally, you need to be aware that some standard terminology varies between countries.

The site:

http://www.craftyarncouncil.com/

is worth exploring, you may find the advice for designers worth reading.

Dave


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

diobsession said:


> I have always found this subject to be interesting. No matter what group it comes up on there is a difference of opinion. I am a patternaholic.
> I have tons of old and new patterns. Since I have been inerested in the same kind of patterns for years I often find it interesting to see that people have copied patterns from the past and call them copyrighted to themselves. Then post bold statements about not using THEIR pattern.
> If I were a designer and posted free patterns I would not have any expectation of what is done with it. A note saying don't sell anything made from this pattern is impossible to follow up. That pattern could be all over the world in seconds. Unless I was doing patterns as part of my income the only reason I would copyright a pattern would be to prevent someone from selling what I offered free.


Simply because a pattern is published free in a particular place does not mean it isn't subject to copyright. The term literally means the right to copy and publish, distribute and disseminate and control over the format in which this is done. I post the odd pattern here on Knitting Paradise, anybody is welcome to print them out and follow them. Downloaders do not have the right to run off dozens of copies of the pattern and sell them as patterns on ebay. Nor does it confer the right to cut and paste my pattern onto another website, if they wish to refer to it, they should post a link to KP.

The originator has the right to choose the format and manner in which his or her work appears.

Dave


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

KP has had several go-arounds on this topic and you can try to search for these previous discussions. Bottom line is that stitches are not copywrite, especially if in a stitch dictionary. Those collections are created to encourage creative use of them. Patterns are another thing. Some are copywrite protected and others not. Some are for personal use but not for sale and others are for small sales but not large scale commercial reproduction. Information on patterns is usually included with the pattern. If you have a question, post the designer.


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## hgayle (Aug 22, 2011)

WHat if I were to combine, say parts of three different patterns? Is that still copyright infringement? As an example, I found a pattern for a dog sweater that I made. The second one I made, I started knitting at the bottom instead of the top and I changed the stitch pattern. Is that copyright infringement.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

andyjmcc said:


> I have seen patterns I have written show up on Ravelry attributed to someone else and copyrighted!!!!!
> I've heard that it is an iffy area to copyright knitting and crochet patterns--and that lots of the copyrights are just hopeful warnings that don't hold water.


I can sympathize with you as that happened to me years ago with kids clothes I crocheted and put in stores. How did you handle this situation?


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

hgayle said:


> WHat if I were to combine, say parts of three different patterns? Is that still copyright infringement?


it really depends on how unique your item is. it is impossible to be that cut and dry in a discussion such as this one. we are talking generally here. every case is its own unique question. so what you wind up with may look like its original design(s) or may have its own personal stamp.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

sweetsue said:


> If you make a few subtle changes (which of course you will) it can be your own.
> Here is a site that gives you options for creating your own graphs.
> http://domestikgoddess.com/3-easy-ways-to-chart-a-knitting-pattern/


very timely for me. lost all my files and you have now saved me the aggravation of looking all this up. am needing to transfer some images to a knitting grid now. so thank you.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

hgayle said:


> WHat if I were to combine, say parts of three different patterns? Is that still copyright infringement?


If you are planning to create a hybrid pattern and market it as your own, it might be prudent to consult a legal adviser who specialises in intellectual property issues.

Dave


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## Deanne (Jul 21, 2011)

Boy this kind of discussion takes the fun out of being creative. I can't believe that people who have copyrighted designs did not use any already created stitches or even shapes, types of collars, bands, etc. I appreciate the creativity of people who have made their own designs and if it is not someone elses complete pattern that what's the problem? Thought I might try my hand at designing a sweater for my great granddaughter with some stitches I had used in other sweaters, afghans etc. but can't be bothered now!!


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## mknitter (Aug 4, 2011)

Thanks again, Fireball Dave. You are a great help. I was hoping to be able to sell my garment designs online, but was afraid of the stitch pattern copyright angle. My copyright lawyer made everything as clear as mud, and wanted an undisclosed amount of money (so I'm assuming it was LOTS, since his starting fee was $400 per hour!!), just to research the matter regarding stitch copyright further. Needless to say, I was unable to go ahead with that, and consequently had decided not to sell my designs. Now, I feel more confident in that area. 
I checked out the Yarn Council of Canada website, as suggested, which was also useful. If you have any further suggestions, I would love to hear them. Thanks.


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## LynneA (Oct 2, 2011)

Deanne, if you are giving something you designed as a gift, all this copyright stuff does not apply.

Listen to Dave about the SELLING of things copied from other people's ideas.

I am not trying to be rude here, by the way, just helpful.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

Deanne said:


> Boy this kind of discussion takes the fun out of being creative. I can't believe that people who have copyrighted designs did not use any already created stitches or even shapes, types of collars, bands, etc. I appreciate the creativity of people who have made their own designs and if it is not someone elses complete pattern that what's the problem? Thought I might try my hand at designing a sweater for my great granddaughter with some stitches I had used in other sweaters, afghans etc. but can't be bothered now!!


There is nothing whatsoever to stop you creating a sweater for yourself or your family and friends using the knowledge you possess, that's the fun part of knitting. Copyright issues only occur when it comes to publishing the pattern.

Dave


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

Sorry, finger trouble!

Dave


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## 1artist (May 24, 2011)

courier770 said:


> "methods" are not copyrighted..such as the basic stitches "knit" or "purl".
> 
> Think of it this way, as a well known writer once said "all authors have the same basic tools, 26 letters of the alphabet, it's all about arranging them in the right way".
> 
> ...


Sorry, Courier, But I had to weigh in on this one. Sometimes the patent office is not so bright as I have seen recently the patent given to a woman who patented the method to create stuffed balls from fabric and other materials. really, what crafters have been making for a hundred or more years, one was even knitted! that puts everyone of us in dereliction of her patent if we knit a Christmas ornament.


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## dianejohnson (Jul 26, 2011)

i thought copyrights applied to items to be sold. items to be made for oneself can be made from pretty much anything as long as there is 'no exchange for monetary gain'


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## tenaj (Feb 22, 2011)

Where the law is concerned; self interpretation is not recommended. An attorney would be your best option. They do not charge a lot for a quick consultation. Just have your questions and any pictures ready.


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## Deanne (Jul 21, 2011)

I realize it would only apply if I were to sell the pattern but then whose to say I wouldn't want to. I am totally confused by all this. Most stitch combinations seem to be universal just used in different ways. Oh well, doesn't really matter, after all this discussion I wouldn't venture into this arena. I just want to enjoy knitting and if I do have a pattern I have created will keep it to myself. I do appreciate the energy and cretivity of all of you who do design. I am not trying to take that away from you.


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## moke (Oct 8, 2011)

Well if this is the case then I better stop using jenny's very stretchy bind-off...lol...I agree with you completely diobession..this is the core of this problem. And I have also witnessed this many many times. A very old pattern..somehow becomes copywrighted to someone else....a pattern i have made many times..is suddenly the property of someone new. And to control what someone does with a needle and a length of string is a very difficult quest. But as long as you are not doing it for money then i do not see how this can be controlled. But one thing that we have to do as knitters is to encourage design, and stitches. not stifle it.


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## Tracey24 (Dec 31, 2011)

Thank you Dave, this is most helpful. After more investigating, it is just a fairly basic stitch pattern. There are other ones similar in the public domain, that now I understand about, will be able to start dreaming up my as regards using a cable or something, because what was confusing, was that people have created patterns, that have copyright on them, and I knew that items of the garment like bobbles etc had not obviously be dreamed up by that particular person, just passed to them through knowledge. Obviously i wouldn't proceed to go on a route of selling, without going through the proper process and getting the piece verified first. Now all I need is my brain power to turn it into a work of art!  masterpeice without worriying about tramping on peoples toes. I just didn't know how it stood


FireballDave said:


> Copyright actually started in the UK at the beginning of the eighteenth century, so it's been around for a while now and has adapted and evolved over the years. If you are arranging stitches that have been in the public domain for longer than anyone can remember, such as a moss stitch panel, followed by a cable over six stitches, followed by a section in trinity stitch across the width of a piece, that is your own design. Nobody owns moss stitch or basket stitch, slipping three stitches to a cable needle to make a crossover, or rib, these are deemed to be basic stitches and common knowledge.
> 
> A very basic jumper in stocking stitch with minimal shaping and a V or crew neck is not subject to copyright, it is deemed to be 'common knowledge' too, there are only so many variations to dide for neck and decrease evenly either side, the courts have recognised this. When you start putting a unique picture or arrangement of stitches on an item so that it becomes unique, that's when it becomes copyrightable.
> 
> ...


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## Marilyn803 (Dec 4, 2011)

I am more than willing to pay for patterns. Someone SHOULD get paid for their artistic efforts. My hat goes off to the designers because it's a talent I don't have. I'm more than happy to pay the designers for their talent.


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## Tracey24 (Dec 31, 2011)

This has been a true 'food for thought' topic. You have all been incredibly helpful, to which I thank you most dearly. I am still going to think about creating a little piece. The hardest part will be my little think engine as I don't know what I am going to make yet. Now for the hours of headache, as I decide on collar, no collar etc as we say in our family 'How hard can it be!' lol


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## RoxyCatlady (Mar 22, 2011)

Tracey24 said:


> I often marvel at all the wonderful designs that people have created. I found a lovely stitch design that I would like to have a go at turning into a garment and put onto a web page. Does any person know, if you are allowed to do such a thing? I am so confused by the copyright laws. The pattern was many years ago incorporated into an adult pattern that I think would look nice on a baby cardigan. If any body that has made a pattern up I would appreciate any advise as the more I read the more confusing at appears


If you have the stitch design, you can use it anywhere. That would be like saying, I want to make a simple pullover and make it in all garter stitch - garter stitch is not under copyright. So, the actual stitch pattern cannot be copyrighted. The shape of the garment cannot be copyrighted. Otherwise, there would only be one ever - the first one... What is copyrighted is that person's complete written pattern to create that item.

So, the adult pattern itself is copyrighted. Your idea to take a stitch pattern and make a baby cardigan is your idea. Go for it.


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## wjfaris (Oct 29, 2011)

courier770 said:


> "methods" are not copyrighted..such as the basic stitches "knit" or "purl".
> 
> Think of it this way, as a well known writer once said "all authors have the same basic tools, 26 letters of the alphabet, it's all about arranging them in the right way".
> 
> ...


I understand courier has a business and is going to protect it all all costs, but the stitches themselves are not copyrighted. Tracey can do what she wants for her mother and her husband. She just can not sell them. And having worked in the court systems for 40 years, including federal courts, I can tell you that unless there is a flagrant copying of a pattern that's copyrighted, it is not illegal. A lot of what is said is just super-protective of someone's work product, and scare tactics, and I would venture to say not 100 % truthful.


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## PauletteB. (Feb 7, 2012)

I have several books of knitting stitch patterns. They do not give patterns for garments just stitch patterns. For my own clarity , are you saying if we create a garment using these stitch patterns it could result in copyright infringement? A second part to this would be this. I find a garment in a knitting magazine and I like it but it may have a lace pattern I would like to change. Is this copyright infringement?


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

mknitter said:


> Thanks again, Fireball Dave. You are a great help. I was hoping to be able to sell my garment designs online, but was afraid of the stitch pattern copyright angle. My copyright lawyer made everything as clear as mud, and wanted an undisclosed amount of money (so I'm assuming it was LOTS, since his starting fee was $400 per hour!!), just to research the matter regarding stitch copyright further. Needless to say, I was unable to go ahead with that, and consequently had decided not to sell my designs. Now, I feel more confident in that area.
> I checked out the Yarn Council of Canada website, as suggested, which was also useful. If you have any further suggestions, I would love to hear them. Thanks.


Most governments publish very good information books on copyright, design registration, trademarks and patents. These are available in the UK in public libraries, chambers of commerce and town halls, as well as direct from the patent office. The basic legislation is very clear.

In the UK and EU countries, copyright does not need to be registered, it exists from the instant a design or creative work is created and resides with the work's originator to do with as he or she chooses. I don't know the specifics in Canada, but I strongly suspect your government publishes a similar guide to those in the UK, detailing the operation of prevailing legislation. The most useful source of advice is your local public library, when it comes to copyright, librarians have a good working knowledge of the subject and can point you towards useful reference works.

Sorry I can't be of more help

Dave


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

PauletteB. said:


> I have several books of knitting stitch patterns. They do not give patterns for garments just stitch patterns. For my own clarity , are you saying if we create a garment using these stitch patterns it could result in copyright infringement?


Not at all, collections of stitch patterns are intended to be used as reference works, many of the patterns are traditional and are very old.

The copyright on such a work refers to such things as; the cover design of the book; the illustrations in the book; editorial commentary by the compiler of the book; the selection and arrangement of the book's content and; charts for patterns. If it is a book of picture sweaters by a designer, then those stitch patterns would be covered because they would be artistic designs in their own right, but instructions for generic blackberry stitch or how to make a bobble are not personal creative works. You may find the photographs and drawings used to illustrate the book are separately credited, this could be because the photographer and graphic artist have retained all of part of the rights that relate to their contributions to the overall work.

Again, the copyright on such a work primarily exists to stop people copying the book and distributing copies of it.

Hope that explains it
Dave


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## mknitter (Aug 4, 2011)

Thanks again, Dave. I have previously downloaded and read all the copyright laws pertaining to Canadian copyright, but nothing seems to pertain to knitting in particular. It is all geared to books, music and movies. So I have today written an email to them to see if they will let me know just what our laws state regarding stitch patterns. When I get a reply (if I get a reply), I will post it on the forum.
But I tend to agree with what you just wrote to PauletteB. I'm hoping that's the answer the government office sends me. Cheers!


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

Tracey24 said:


> This has been a true 'food for thought' topic. You have all been incredibly helpful, to which I thank you most dearly. I am still going to think about creating a little piece. The hardest part will be my little think engine as I don't know what I am going to make yet. Now for the hours of headache, as I decide on collar, no collar etc as we say in our family 'How hard can it be!' lol


Good luck, I hope you enjoy the process. There's something really satisfying about starting out with a sketch of something you can see in your head and solving the problem of turning that into a _knittable_ pattern. The sums can be a challenge sometimes, but I find it's worth it to create something that is 'all my own work'. I find it helps to print out loads of knitter's graph paper and use it to create a paper pattern as in tailoring, many of the design principles are the same.

Have fun!
Dave


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## AuntKnitty (Apr 10, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Currently I hold copyright on about 50 designs, you better believe I will do everything possible to protect that right.


Courier,

What are the designs that you hold copyright too? Are these stitch patterns? Garments? Charts for colorwork? Just curious.


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## denisejh (May 20, 2011)

Can someone copyright an actual stitch? I don't know much about copyright laws so someone with more knowledge would have to address this issue. My guess is that if you found a stitch you liked and designed a garment using that stitch, that would be ok but that is just a guess on my part only.


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## nsnewfie1996 (Nov 19, 2011)

AuntKnitty said:


> courier770 said:
> 
> 
> > Currently I hold copyright on about 50 designs, you better believe I will do everything possible to protect that right.
> ...


Auntknitty, courier keeps making reference to all those copyright designs,etc that she claims she has copyrights to everytime someone asks a question about a pattern or a stitch, but she has yet to tell us what her company is or what type of designs or stitch patterns she refers to. If I was a designer I would be shouting it all over KP so I could drum up a bigger customer base. I am thinking some people are all talk and cannot produce when asked as she has been asked many times by people on here to tell us more info about her business.......she is all there to chastise us about copyright but not willing to share anything about herself or her business.....I myself am starting to get a little suspicious if she actually is who she claims to be.

I know I will probably get blasted for this but I think I am just saying what a lot of people have been thinking. It's time for courier to come clean and stop making people feel like they are breaking the law everytime they want to use their wonderful hobby to make something. I myself am getting just a little tired of All this, I have been knitting for 50 years and I certainly have spent tons of money on patterns but now I am starting to question if I have broken any laws in all those years and maybe someday I will get pulled into court just because I created something I love.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

AuntKnitty said:


> courier770 said:
> 
> 
> > Currently I hold copyright on about 50 designs, you better believe I will do everything possible to protect that right.
> ...


I was wondering the same thing


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## wjfaris (Oct 29, 2011)

denisejh said:


> Can someone copyright an actual stitch? I don't know much about copyright laws so someone with more knowledge would have to address this issue. My guess is that if you found a stitch you liked and designed a garment using that stitch, that would be ok but that is just a guess on my part only.


no you can not copyright an actual stitch. copyright refers to printed material.


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## wjfaris (Oct 29, 2011)

You're right on. People shouldn't take others words as gospel. Courier is trying to "protect" what she thinks is her section of the world -- and it's not. And as I said before, I've worked in federal court over 10 years, been a court reporter over 40, and I would like to know the name of the case where she claims to have extracted thousands from people she sued. That's easy to look up. I just plain don't believe her.



nsnewfie1996 said:


> AuntKnitty said:
> 
> 
> > courier770 said:
> ...


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## AuntKnitty (Apr 10, 2011)

Okay, let me be clear here. I'm NOT for bashing Courier770 and I would appreciate that stopping. I was simply curious about what kind of designing she was doing.

I design patterns too, but haven't published any of mine yet.


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## wjfaris (Oct 29, 2011)

AuntKnitty said:


> Okay, let me be clear here. I'm NOT for bashing Courier770 and I would appreciate that stopping. I was simply curious about what kind of designing she was doing.
> 
> I design patterns too, but haven't published any of mine yet.


I'm not bashing courier, and I'm sorry you took it that way. I'm saying I don't believe her -- and I said that much earlier.


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## denisejh (May 20, 2011)

With all due respect to EVERYONE-There was a big discussion about this not too long ago and it got really ugly! It all started with an innocent question and got out of hand. Ask, discuss, and debate because that makes it interesting and we all learn from it but PLEASE, let's keep it civil. There's no need for it to get ugly and to be disrespectful of others. Please? Thanks!!


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## Ronie (Jan 21, 2011)

well courier770.. I am so glad you are so knowledgable in this area.. I think it is the 'scary side' of using patterns for our projects. Yesterday is the first pattern that I printed off that is not a protected pattern.. it says to do what we want with it... but most are protected and its good to hear what you have to say about this... I did not know that other country's dont have the same laws as far a copywrite goes... I would imagine if I were to ever get to the point of making something to sell then I would need to seriously investigate this... and your right.. you designed these patterns.. and you have the right to get the rewards for it... and we are grateful to be able to use your patterns....


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## wjfaris (Oct 29, 2011)

You're absolute right, Denise, however look back through the thread and see what people are saying. I remember the discussion not long ago, and if you'll go back and look it up you'll see the confrontation and contention was brought about by the same individual. Are others not allowed to voice opinions, just one? Goodness...... Are we supposed to believe what others put out there as gospel and go brain-dead ourselves? Really! 
I think if you'll read the threads again, there was a posting and then a threat.


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## faithphoenix (Dec 28, 2011)

For what is is worthm my understanding is that regardless of the source (book, Internet, magazine) of the knitting pattern (here I mean pattern of the garment including the choice of stitch) and whether or not it was free or paid for, it is subject to copyright laws.

The pattern will usually carry wording such as "All rights reserved" which means you can only knit it for yourself and or as a gift for another  nothing else. If it says simply "copyright" or says nothing, the best thing to do would be to contact the designer and ask. On the one hand, designers want their work to be known but, on the other, they want a fair reward for their work in coming up with the design etc. Copyright law allows designers to make their work known and to obtain a reward for it for a fixed period of time. 

When the fixed period of time has expired and there is no renewal of copyright, the design is no longer copyrighted and it is said to be "in the public domain". (I am not sure but I think that in the UK the first fixed period is for 5 years and this can be renewed to obtain 25 years of protection  I think it is much longer in the US and you would need to check). In any event, when it has expired, you can use it however you wish including making your profit from the design.

An example of "in the public domain" is fairisle knitting. Anyone knitting traditional fairisle sweaters using "OXO" and other traditional stitch designs and selling them cannot possibly infringe the law.

Where a garment pattern is copyrighted, you have nothing to lose in asking the designer if you can make the design for sale. Some designers will have no qualms about you using the design so long as you agree to credit them with the design when you sell it. I think this is eminently sensible because, in the main, people who want to buy the finished article "designed by xxxx" are not knitters themselves and the designer benefits twice over  first from the original purchase of the pattern by the knitter and then secondly from having their name circulated which brings them more business! 

Tracey, good luck with what you decide and, anyone wanting to knit for profit who does not want to approach the designer would be well-advised to take some proper legal advice applicable to their jurisdiction. 

Best wishes
Suzanne


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## denisejh (May 20, 2011)

Willa-Thank you for your response. I remember but I don't feel the need to point fingers or criticize ANYONE. It was a very passionate discussion and many people made good points. I'm just asking that everyone stay calm civil. That's all. Thanks!


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

anne of green gables said:


> If one has a booklet of different stitch patterns--that's all. No garments, no afghan patterns, no baby blanket, does that mean you cannot combine and use these to designs to create your own garment or afghan?


Absolutely that's how to do it. Stitch patterns are not copyrighted, just the written up patterns for the garments they are used in.

By all means, pick a stitch pattern to use and put it in your baby sweater design. That's how the designers do it!

Open up any current knitting magazine and you will see all kinds of sweaters and things with patterned knitting. They didn't dream those stitch patterns up, they have been around forever.

So, go for it!


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## faithphoenix (Dec 28, 2011)

Goodness, since drafting my "two penneth" on the subject this morning but only posting it a minute ago, I have just noticed that this topic runs to 6 pages of posts and appears to have been a little "heated" at times. I hope I have not upset anyone ....?
I suppose this can be a touchy topic for some but let's not fall out about it


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

sweetsue said:


> If you make a few subtle changes (which of course you will) it can be your own.


False. It would be a derivative work. Still protected under copyright.

Why be a copycat? Envision your own thing, pick your stitch pattern(s) for the "fabric" of your garment, and work out your own numbers to create the design you envisioned.

If you just want to copy, why the need to put your name on someone else's work?


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## nsnewfie1996 (Nov 19, 2011)

Willa J. said:


> AuntKnitty said:
> 
> 
> > Okay, let me be clear here. I'm NOT for bashing Courier770 and I would appreciate that stopping. I was simply curious about what kind of designing she was doing.
> ...


I wasn't bashing her either, I just find it very difficult to believe everything she says since she does not answer a simple question that anyone has asked her about things she claims on here.....


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## Schipperke (Nov 12, 2011)

nsnewfie1996 said:


> Willa J. said:
> 
> 
> > AuntKnitty said:
> ...


Perhaps she's not on line, but will give some information when she is


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## daralene (Feb 27, 2012)

faithphoenix said:


> Goodness, since drafting my "two penneth" on the subject this morning but only posting it a minute ago, I have just noticed that this topic runs to 6 pages of posts and appears to have been a little "heated" at times. I hope I have not upset anyone ....?
> I suppose this can be a touchy topic for some but let's not fall out about it


It is an important question and well worth the discussion and thought. Even after the discussion the other day I had this same question so thanks for asking. I'm knitting and people tell me I should sell but I don't design. A designer told me I could sell as long as I gave credit to the designer on one of the posts I made. I would have no problem with this but it is daunting to have to contact each designer but perhaps necessary. My husband is a musician/composer and he not only makes his living partly from music which has been stolen and duplicated, decreasing his living, but when trying to write a textbook on other musicians the copyrights were so restricting that he had to take out most of the music examples. He was writing this for a company in England but he would have been personally liable if someone sued. It is a daunting subject.


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

GudrunM said:


> thanks a bunch for this site, it is wonderful. I just created a pattern on normal graph paper and I see now that won't work. i clicked on knitting graphp paper and a shopping site came up. I guess I am missing something. I will google knitting graph paper and I will find it......I hope.


Here's my favorite one:
http://www.tata-tatao.to/knit/matrix/e-index.html


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## YourLuckyEwe (Jul 2, 2011)

Many of us knitters have heard all these arguments again and again over the years and the copyright laws are still confusing over what one can and cannot do. Some knitters feel if one knits and sells another's design it is an infringement, but it is okay if a knitter makes up a designer's original for another and is paid for the work. 
You may not have noticed but craft companies like Herrschner's seldom feature one of their special afghan designs for more than one season as they know once someone buys the pattern it "goes viral." We never hear anything about lawsuits. How can a company sue thousands of knitters and crocheters for selling something each has duplicated maybe less than a dozen times. Disney and Warner's are another story as their characters are duplicated in the millions by unscrupulous manufacturers.


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## laurie4 (Nov 3, 2011)

wow i am so dizzy reading these posts we become very frustrated we are suppose to enjoy our craft we should be able to share and make others happy life is too short thank you nsnewfie and willa i totally understand where you are coming from i will not give my opinion on this as there are too many as is lol now i am going to make myself a nice cup of coffee and relax reading the rest of this site


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

nsnewfie1996 said:


> I wasn't bashing her either, I just find it very difficult to believe everything she says since she does not answer a simple question that anyone has asked her about things she claims on here.....


Since when is a person required to reveal personal information in order to post here without being called a liar? All I have seen Courrier post is truthful information about copyright law, and many many urgings to _contact an attorney to ask_ these questions yourself.

What's FUNNY is the number of bona fide liars and scammers who post here in order to sell things or get monetary donations, and the mass population of KP jumps right on board with their "stories"... no questions asked.

Believe what someone posts, or don't believe it. But don't ask one member to reveal themselves more than you would want to have to reveal personal things about _yourself_.


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## wjfaris (Oct 29, 2011)

faithphoenix said:


> For what is is worthm my understanding is that regardless of the source (book, Internet, magazine) of the knitting pattern (here I mean pattern of the garment including the choice of stitch) and whether or not it was free or paid for, it is subject to copyright laws.
> 
> The pattern will usually carry wording such as "All rights reserved" which means you can only knit it for yourself and or as a gift for another  nothing else. If it says simply "copyright" or says nothing, the best thing to do would be to contact the designer and ask. On the one hand, designers want their work to be known but, on the other, they want a fair reward for their work in coming up with the design etc. Copyright law allows designers to make their work known and to obtain a reward for it for a fixed period of time.
> 
> ...


Amen!


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## jangmb (Oct 27, 2011)

cablenut said:


> There are problems with simple answers like that. There's a different set of copyright guidelines for fine art, for imagery, for crafts, and for written instructions. It gets so complicated. That's why I'm asking if there's a particular site you prefer, that is spot on to this topic.
> Patents are for the ideas. If you came up with, say, a kind of garment or accessory no one had ever made before, you'd want to patent it. I've done that. They expire unless you renew them.
> ...
> Copyrights are more for the stuff that can be printed... like instruction- with photos included or not.
> ...


Yes, very constructive advice. The copyrighted designers of today certainly started their research somewhere. It would be nice to find as much genuine help on this subject like the other subjects without just hearing "no". I agree with working with an attorney - it would be nice to have some basic help before working with the attorney. Not all know the knitting/copyright field. It is helpful to do homework first. This is truly an interesting and important topic.


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## nsnewfie1996 (Nov 19, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> nsnewfie1996 said:
> 
> 
> > I wasn't bashing her either, I just find it very difficult to believe everything she says since she does not answer a simple question that anyone has asked her about things she claims on here.....
> ...


I did not ask anyone to reveal personal info, some of us were just curious as to what type of designs or patterns that were mentioned. You would think someone would be happy to let fellow knitters/crocheters know about their designs they sell, after all would we not be considered potential customers? I thought it would benefit the seller if that is how they make their living.......I am not being vindictive here just honest.


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## jangmb (Oct 27, 2011)

Deanne said:


> I realize it would only apply if I were to sell the pattern but then whose to say I wouldn't want to. I am totally confused by all this. Most stitch combinations seem to be universal just used in different ways. Oh well, doesn't really matter, after all this discussion I wouldn't venture into this arena. I just want to enjoy knitting and if I do have a pattern I have created will keep it to myself. I do appreciate the energy and cretivity of all of you who do design. I am not trying to take that away from you.


Please do not be discouraged from using your creativity!


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## BSH (Oct 8, 2011)

Tracey24 said:


> I often marvel at all the wonderful designs that people have created. I found a lovely stitch design that I would like to have a go at turning into a garment and put onto a web page. Does any person know, if you are allowed to do such a thing? I am so confused by the copyright laws. The pattern was many years ago incorporated into an adult pattern that I think would look nice on a baby cardigan. If any body that has made a pattern up I would appreciate any advise as the more I read the more confusing at appears


Here is something that may help you.


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## Doxie Mama (Feb 12, 2012)

It is good to know the U.S. copyright is in place to protect designs of the creators. To take this a little further, if one purchases a copyrighted pattern, how far can that purchase extend? To make a garment for personal use would (I think) be a given. Can that garment be given as a gift... can the garment be sold...can the garment pattern be loaned to a 2nd party for personal use... and if so, can the 2nd party give or sell a garment made from the borrowed pattern? I hope I am not infringing on your knowledge base, I realize you have invested income at stake, but if it is not too much to ask, I do not want to violate any laws. Thank you.


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## denisejh (May 20, 2011)

BSH-Thanks to you and Sewbizgirl for the downloads. Both will come in quite handy and are good to have. Thanks for the effort!!


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## pugmom5 (Feb 19, 2011)

"Great minds DO sometimes think alike". I knitted a shawl. No pattern, just had an idea of the shape I wanted. Garter stitch, so no copy-write problems there. I added the increase so I would get the triangle shape I wanted. Then added a ruffle. When I look up patterns to see if there is anything like it published...what do I find but dozens that are ALMOST the same. So how do you prove that this is MY idea alone, when there are dozens of almost like patterns out there?


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## Tracey24 (Dec 31, 2011)

How do you think I feel. I only asked one question. Maybe I'll hold fire on question 2 he he. No one is offending me on here. It's certainly livened up a mundane Saturday


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## Tracey24 (Dec 31, 2011)

Thank you for the link. I nearly missed it with the Diplomatic incident I have caused 


BSH said:


> Tracey24 said:
> 
> 
> > I often marvel at all the wonderful designs that people have created. I found a lovely stitch design that I would like to have a go at turning into a garment and put onto a web page. Does any person know, if you are allowed to do such a thing? I am so confused by the copyright laws. The pattern was many years ago incorporated into an adult pattern that I think would look nice on a baby cardigan. If any body that has made a pattern up I would appreciate any advise as the more I read the more confusing at appears
> ...


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## denisejh (May 20, 2011)

Tracey24-It was a valid question.


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## Sheilak1 (Feb 20, 2012)

Who the heck is going to consult an attorney about such a thing ???????????


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## Jokim (Nov 22, 2011)

diobsession said:


> I have always found this subject to be interesting. No matter what group it comes up on there is a difference of opinion. I am a patternaholic.
> I have tons of old and new patterns. Since I have been inerested in the same kind of patterns for years I often find it interesting to see that people have copied patterns from the past and call them copyrighted to themselves. Then post bold statements about not using THEIR pattern.
> If I were a designer and posted free patterns I would not have any expectation of what is done with it. A note saying don't sell anything made from this pattern is impossible to follow up. That pattern could be all over the world in seconds. Unless I was doing patterns as part of my income the only reason I would copyright a pattern would be to prevent someone from selling what I offered free.


Copyright'ed doesn't necessarily mean registered with the US Patent Office, does it? I understand that, from the horticultural perspective at least, it is very expensive to copyright and register one's creation. One would have to derive a very high income from the copyrights in order to net profits .


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## Wynn11 (Jul 20, 2011)

There was a very long discussion about this very subject on KP. Do a "search" and you will find lots of info. It went on for days. Also, I believe someone made up their own pattern from some uggs she saw on this site and she made up a pattern of her own. No copyright problems there. It was also discussed that if using a stitch you like broke the copy right laws then no one wound knit.


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## AuntKnitty (Apr 10, 2011)

A copyright is quite different from a patent and no, you wouldn't patent a knitting pattern. Perhaps if you came up with an entirely new kind of garment, you would want to patent it, but a pattern, no. 

I do a simple 'home copyright', one I was told by an attorney would stand up in court. This is the process. I start with a sketch or a description of what I want to knit. I research stitches, techniques, etc and make note of where the information came from. I make notes and date them. 

When I start knitting, I take copious notes and keep notes on consecutive pages, noting even what didn't work or what section I'm replacing. When I've knitted the prototype to my satisfaction, I take photographs and write out the pattern in a word document and date that. I'll scan my notes for my records and make a file with all relevant documents and photos.

Then I take everything, the handwritten, dated, notes; the original photos, the printed pattern and put them into a document envelope and send them to myself, to get the postmark and the date. When I get it back, I file it away unopened.

If another designer questioned my design or if I saw something of mine claimed by another designer, I have documentation that would be admissible in court.


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## Wynn11 (Jul 20, 2011)

Don't forget....most designers are happy to have their work used by others and usually you can use it but NOT sell the pattern. If you wish to sell the item, all you need to do is ask the designed of the pattern. They usually say YES just for the free publicity. Rule of thumb - don't post a pattern on KP but give a link instead.


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## ggclaudia (Jun 8, 2011)

FireballDave said:


> Copyright actually started in the UK at the beginning of the eighteenth century, so it's been around for a while now and has adapted and evolved over the years. If you are arranging stitches that have been in the public domain for longer than anyone can remember, such as a moss stitch panel, followed by a cable over six stitches, followed by a section in trinity stitch across the width of a piece, that is your own design. Nobody owns moss stitch or basket stitch, slipping three stitches to a cable needle to make a crossover, or rib, these are deemed to be basic stitches and common knowledge.
> 
> A very basic jumper in stocking stitch with minimal shaping and a V or crew neck is not subject to copyright, it is deemed to be 'common knowledge' too, there are only so many variations to dide for neck and decrease evenly either side, the courts have recognised this. When you start putting a unique picture or arrangement of stitches on an item so that it becomes unique, that's when it becomes copyrightable.
> 
> ...


Dave, I can understand everything you are saying. If a designer makes a pattern it is theirs and no one else can claim it. It would be like taking a McCalls pattern and reprinting it with your name on it But you can make a garment from that pattern as many times as you want and sell it and nobody cares. The knitting designers, however, are telling us we can make a garment from their designs, that we have purchased, but cannot sell it because they have the copyright on the pattern and by selling the garment we are violating copyright laws.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

AuntKnitty said:


> A copyright is quite different from a patent and no, you wouldn't patent a knitting pattern. Perhaps if you came up with an entirely new kind of garment, you would want to patent it, but a pattern, no.
> 
> I do a simple 'home copyright', one I was told by an attorney would stand up in court. This is the process. I start with a sketch or a description of what I want to knit. I research stitches, techniques, etc and make note of where the information came from. I make notes and date them.
> 
> ...


Either that or get the manager of your local bank to certify the date of the pattern, this is admissible as proof of the date something was written, they routinely do this for a nominal fee.

Dave


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## Ali9407 (Jun 25, 2011)

Ladies and Gent: What are we doing here? We are not talking about a cure for cancer or the formula for the atom bomb. So far I have not purchased a pattern but have been using freebies. However, if I knit something from a pattern and a friend asks for a copy I will either make her a copy of direct her to the web site where she can download it herself. Yikes, hope the copyright police don't come to get me.!!!!!


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## andyjmcc (Feb 26, 2012)

tamarique, I haven't. I noticed it recently and don't know of
much to do about it.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

Doxie Mama said:


> It is good to know the U.S. copyright is in place to protect designs of the creators. To take this a little further, if one purchases a copyrighted pattern, how far can that purchase extend? To make a garment for personal use would (I think) be a given. Can that garment be given as a gift... can the garment be sold...can the garment pattern be loaned to a 2nd party for personal use... and if so, can the 2nd party give or sell a garment made from the borrowed pattern? I hope I am not infringing on your knowledge base, I realize you have invested income at stake, but if it is not too much to ask, I do not want to violate any laws. Thank you.


The basic rules concerning use are that you can use a legitimately obtained pattern to make the article or garment for yourself, or to give to others, friends, family etc. If a person unable to knit, bought a pattern and asked another to actually do the work for them, that would be within the scope of even the most stringent of readings. The end result being, a sheet of paper bearing the instructions and a finished article, made using those instructions.

When it comes to commercial use of a pattern, it's frequently a question of a scale. Very few designers object to an individual hand-knitting their design to sell in craft fairs or as one-offs, althought there are some. Most designers are similarly willing for articles made from their pattern to be sold for charity.

Problems occur when the scale of production is greater than could possibly be managed by one person, no matter how fast a knitter. If a pattern is bought and then photocopied or reproduced so that each member of the work-force has a copy, that is in breach of copyright, the company should have bought sufficient copies of the pattern and obtained a licence to commercially produce the item. Different designers and publishers take different attitudes to this, that is what their copyright enables them to do, they have the right to control how their works are copied.

In the case of schools, colleges and charities, many have long-standing arrangements with publishers and some prolific designers. Once again, copyright protects the rght of the designer to control how his or her work is distributed.

Far from stifling creatives, copyright was created to to ensure they can derive benefit from their work, it encourages them by protecting their ability to earn a living. This intent is in the Statute of Anne 1710, which was the first proper copyright protection legislation to be enacted.

I hope that clarifies things on a general basis. How the law is applied by the courts to individual cases can vary, but the basic prnciples are fairly straightforward.

Dave


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## Doxie Mama (Feb 12, 2012)

To reply to Ali9407, I never gave it that much thought either, but recently was going to make a copy of a pattern I had purchased to give to an admirer, and she refused it stating "copyright infringement". But she borrowed the pattern to make herself the item, then returned it to me. Now that's really splitting hairs...but she is a devout Christian and did not want to commit a crime. I, on the other hand, felt like a criminal. So I loved your comment.


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## Tara (Jan 31, 2011)

If I read the original quote correctly she was asking about a stitch she wants to make into a pattern not about a pattern itself. I always thought stitches them selves were not under copyright. Please correct me if i'm wrong.


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## NogginKnits (Mar 13, 2011)

Courier, I like your analogy of letters in the alphbet to stitches and a pattern. Copyright is hard to understand for many of us, but that is a clear definition to me. I can use any stitch I choose to design with, but I can not use anyone's pattern to build my design off of!


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## mknitter (Aug 4, 2011)

The issue about contacting a lawyer because it's not that expensive is in error. I did contact a copyright lawyer about this, and 1/2 hour on the telephone only, cost me over one hundred dollars - and I got little or no information about my subject, even though I had previously sent an email fully stating what I needed to know. Then I was told that he could research more for me, at a cost of min. two hundred dollars per hour, but if he needed help, it would be an additional four hundred dollars per hour. Somehow that does not seem cheap to me! You would have to be sure of making A LOT of money before it would be worthwhile spending that much on a lawyer, who might or might not get you the information you need. And - they won't guarantee that the information stands up in court!


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

ggclaudia said:


> Dave, I can understand everything you are saying. If a designer makes a pattern it is theirs and no one else can claim it. It would be like taking a McCalls pattern and reprinting it with your name on it But you can make a garment from that pattern as many times as you want and sell it and nobody cares. The knitting designers, however, are telling us we can make a garment from their designs, that we have purchased, but cannot sell it because they have the copyright on the pattern and by selling the garment we are violating copyright laws.


I don't keep up with American cases, but there are a number of cases trudging throught the UK and European courts at the moment. These are test cases and relate to a number of crafts, a couple of American rights holders are particularly anxious to extend their control to a degree most courts are unwilling to grant.

The most interesting case concerns craft kits and disposal of the finished article made using the materials in the kit according to the manufacturer's instructions. One particular company, with almost unlimited financial resources, is attempting to forbid even this very limited commercial use regardless of scale, many other companies are watching. I personally feel their reading goes too far and is overly restrictive, I believe it stifles, rather than encourages the creative development of individuals. However, I'm not a share-holder in this particular company, were I to be, I might feel differently.

Dave


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Stitches are NOT copyrighted you are quite correct on that Tara.

Copyright laws vary from country to country as does establishing copyright. Here in the US, the process is quite different than in the UK.

As for not being able to use a copyrighted pattern for commercial purposes...this is a "given" with US copyright law. Even ONE sale is a commercial purpose, though many designers (like myself) have no objection to our designs being used for items that will be sold...to a limit that is.

Let me cite this in a format that may make more sense. Let's say Mary labors long and hard to create the perfect design. Through trial and error, many prototypes, she creates the perfect "knitting masterpiece"..she copyrights her design. It's a smash hit and every yarn shop has trouble keeping up with the demand for her pattern. Along comes Acme Sweater company, who obtains a copy of her pattern and mass produces it, very cheaply, in a third world sweat shop. Acme makes money hand over fist and poor Mary see's not one dime from the sales! Copyright law protects Mary from another making money (no matter how much or how little) from Mary's intellectual property.

On this level it makes perfect sense. To protect Mary from this type of piracy there needs to be a clear definition of "commercial use"..that definition is ANY sale.

To avoid finding yourself in a situation of copyright infringement create your own designs, use "public domain" patterns, do not "duplicate" the copyrighted work of another and never distribute the copyrighted work of another.

Many heated discussions have centered around this subject. While knitting/crocheting is a hobby for some, it is also an industry that employs people in many aspects.

Attorneys that specialize in copyright law really are NOT that expensive..I know, I have one.


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## Ali9407 (Jun 25, 2011)

Doxie Mama said:


> To reply to Ali9407, I never gave it that much thought either, but recently was going to make a copy of a pattern I had purchased to give to an admirer, and she refused it stating "copyright infringement". But she borrowed the pattern to make herself the item, then returned it to me. Now that's really splitting hairs...but she is a devout Christian and did not want to commit a crime. I, on the other hand, felt like a criminal. So I loved your comment.


Doxie Mama LOL she really pulled a fast one on you. I don't think either of you will be going to jail. I fully appreciate that someone's design should not be used for commerical gain (i.e. a company manufacturing the garment and selling it retail). As for myself, if I use a pattern and do not put my name on it as the designer, I am not breaking any laws legal or moral.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

Doxie Mama said:


> To reply to Ali9407, I never gave it that much thought either, but recently was going to make a copy of a pattern I had purchased to give to an admirer, and she refused it stating "copyright infringement". But she borrowed the pattern to make herself the item, then returned it to me. Now that's really splitting hairs...but she is a devout Christian and did not want to commit a crime. I, on the other hand, felt like a criminal. So I loved your comment.


Your friend acted correctly. When one pattern turns into two copies and they turn into four etc., the designer has only been paid once. It's nothing to do with Christianity or any other religious belief, it is to do with fairness and the idea that a person should be able to earn a living from his or her work.

Dave


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

First of all copyright infringement is CIVIL law not criminal law, so no one is going to jail over it. In Civil law cases one can be sued for damages both real and punitive, by the "injured party". 

Think of it as a cracked walkway leading up to your home...it's not criminal to have a cracked walkway..but you can be held liable for damages if someone trips, falls and gets injured. The only time a criminal element can be added is if you are found liable for damages (real/punitive), don't pay them..then you can be held in contempt of court which IS criminal! Clear as mud isn't it?


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

courier770 said:


> First of all copyright infringement is CIVIL law not criminal law, so no one is going to jail over it. In Civil law cases one can be sued for damages both real and punitive, by the "injured party".
> 
> Think of it as a cracked walkway leading up to your home...it's not criminal to have a cracked walkway..but you can be held liable for damages if someone trips, falls and gets injured. The only time a criminal element can be added is if you are found liable for damages (real/punitive), don't pay them..then you can be held in contempt of court which IS criminal! Clear as mud isn't it?


Pretty much the same system applies in the UK. Except, it can become criminal if an intent to defraud or counterfeit can be established, those are criminal activities.

Dave


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

You are right Dave! Pretty much the same here, I forgot, my bad.


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## laurie4 (Nov 3, 2011)

i totally understand where everyone stands on this but the lady who did not want a copy but borrowed a book to do the same project the end result is still the same she used the original pattern to do whatever so what is the difference she still made it this is getting so complicated


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## jbuell (Mar 5, 2012)

There seems to be ALOT of anger on this topic, and I myself was quite uncomfortable with the exchange. I do however understand getting the point across about copyright material.I thought this site was to help other fellow knitters and crocheters, and not lash out. However....A stitch can be used by anyone and put into a pattern they have created totally by themselves. In no way shape or form can you use even a piece of a pattern that came from somewhere or someone else. I design jewelry so I learned early on.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I wouldn't describe it as anger, more like passion and protection. People have lost income due to copyright infringement, money they need to pay bills, support their families, etc..

Most people would be upset to have money taken out of their wallet or purse every day. Yet when it's done to a copyright holder are we are just supposed to put up with it?

If I had a nickle for every time I've read "pm me" regarding a pattern I'd be wealthy, obviously sharing of copyrighted material is going on. Doing it behind closed doors, makes it no more legal or ethical.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

laurie4 said:


> i totally understand where everyone stands on this but the lady who did not want a copy but borrowed a book to do the same project the end result is still the same she used the original pattern to do whatever so what is the difference she still made it this is getting so complicated


The point is that there is still only one copy of the pattern in existence. Try thinking of a librarary book, somebody takes the book out, makes up a pattern, returns the book to the library; end result a finished article and the book. A week later, that same original physical book is borrowed from the library, another person makes the same item and returns the book to the library; again we have, one item and an original book.

Where libraries differ from a person lending a book to a friend, is scale, lending books is the purpose of a library and they pay fees for 'lending rights' under a licensing agreement.

Hope that clarifies it.

Dave


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## denisejh (May 20, 2011)

Courier770-That is the best and easiest understood explaination I have read,especially for someone like me who is completely clueless about copyright law. Thank you.


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## laurie4 (Nov 3, 2011)

thanks dave for taking the time to try and make me understand lets just leave it at we can't make everyone happy


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## 3star777 (Sep 13, 2011)

I find this topic on Copyright extremely interesting. I respect and support the right of copyright and agree that its dishonest to take advantage of the creators by freely passing out their work. 
Having said that and perhaps you may already know this, but I feel it is well worth telling again how the law of copyright affected the showing of the very popular Christmas movie ITS A WONDERFUL LIFE. For years every channel under the sun ran the movie endlessly throughout the Christmas season...until a few years ago when it almost disappeared from site. The movie was in public domain which is why it ran repeatedly. However, the music in the movie was still under copyright, so the owners of the music legally gained control of the movie through their copyright and the movie quickly and almost completely disappeared. ITS A WONDERFUL LIFE still plays during the Christmas season butsparingly.
Just goes to show you the power of the copyright. I hope you found this as interesting as I did.


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## denisejh (May 20, 2011)

threestar777-Wow, I had never heard this. Kind of amazing!


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## Tracey24 (Dec 31, 2011)

Yes Tara that was my original question 


Tara said:


> If I read the original quote correctly she was asking about a stitch she wants to make into a pattern not about a pattern itself. I always thought stitches them selves were not under copyright. Please correct me if i'm wrong.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

What's sort of funny is that on this forum I have read complaint after complain about the high price of postage and shipping the rising cost of gasoline, etc.. So people are in tune when it comes to their own money but on the issue of copyright, someone elses money isn't that important. Just an observation.


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## denisejh (May 20, 2011)

More kind of a "me" thing than a "we" thing.


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

As for being in a different country, most developed countries have agreements with other countries concerning copyright law. So, being in a different country from where it's already copyrighted (even with a few subtle changes) probably won't absolve you.

This is a really complicated subject, and you really need a lawyer to definitively answer questions.


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## Tracey24 (Dec 31, 2011)

Aunt Knitty.. If you have un published patterns, then please get them sorted and out here on the net. My original reason for the question, was that I am trawling more and more for new patterns and ideas. I sing it from the rooftops, when I find a new pattern. and I certainly have never ever minded paying for the fabulous pattern. I am at present asking the people who I have obtained a pattern from and made, if I can link their site to my blog page, so that other people know they are out there. who knows, it might just get them some more orders 


AuntKnitty said:


> Okay, let me be clear here. I'm NOT for bashing Courier770 and I would appreciate that stopping. I was simply curious about what kind of designing she was doing.
> 
> I design patterns too, but haven't published any of mine yet.


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## sweetsue (Aug 12, 2011)

Ahh lawyers. Every lawyer has a different interpretation of the law - that's why their are law courts and lawyers arguing on both sides.
I use to work in our Social Security area here and you even have an Appeals Tribunal if you disagree with the decision made. 
You need a lawyer to argue your case so it would need to be someone who disagreed with Social Security's interpretation of their own Act.
Good fun trying to decipher Social Security Acts. 
I loved it but we had our own lawyers and even they interpreted things differently.
Just saying.


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## Ask4j (May 21, 2011)

Tracey24 said:


> Thank you all for your comments. A very interesting and a confusing subject. What you need to realise, that if I was clever enough to do tis, then I would have exactly 3 buyers.. My mon, nan and husband (for sympathy) lol


Obviously designers are very sensitive about their copy-write designs which are difficult to protect. But rightfully it would be best to find a source in the UK for really good info before striking out. I suggest you work on several patterns first, get the feel for what is uniquely yours and perhaps talk with the professionals, knitting periodicals, yarn companies--they know the ins and outs of copy-writing patterns and are always looking for fresh ideas--it could be a very good start. Maybe even selling patterns to yarn shops that they give away free with purchases of yarn--not a big income but your name is out there. If you read stories by successful people in any walk of life you will find that they started out very humble.


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## gmcmullen (Dec 29, 2011)

courier770 said:


> What's sort of funny is that on this forum I have read complaint after complain about the high price of postage and shipping the rising cost of gasoline, etc.. So people are in tune when it comes to their own money but on the issue of copyright, someone elses money isn't that important. Just an observation.


I guess that's why there are so many laws and lawyers protecting the rights of those who believe they've been wronged. In knitting, though, it almost doesn't seem worth pursuing unlawful use of a $5.00 pattern. I'm just saying.


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## Ask4j (May 21, 2011)

Ali9407 said:


> Ladies and Gent: What are we doing here? We are not talking about a cure for cancer or the formula for the atom bomb. So far I have not purchased a pattern but have been using freebies. However, if I knit something from a pattern and a friend asks for a copy I will either make her a copy of direct her to the web site where she can download it herself. Yikes, hope the copyright police don't come to get me.!!!!!


When you do start buying your patterns or purchase knit magazines, you will know the pressure of those around you wanting a copy--don't do it. Referring someone to a web site certainly wouldn't be infringement but be careful which patterns you copy and give away to people and they in turn give it to their friends and pretty soon a pattern becomes worthless to the original designer and be sides everyone is wearing the same thing, how boring (sorry just my opinion).


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## LynneA (Oct 2, 2011)

I have been asked here, privately, to send a copy of a pattern I bought. I always refer the person to the online address of the designer. Small designers depend on the sales of their creativity, the same as any artist. I believe in supporting them; if I like the pattern well enough to make it, then I believe in paying for it. And, yes, I'm on a fixed income.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

That's just ONE pattern, multiply it over and over again. Would you stand by and let someone take $5.00 out of your wallet, then let the next person do it and the next and the next?

In a forum such as this, with thousands of members don't you agree that $5.00 could just be the tip of the iceberg?


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## nsnewfie1996 (Nov 19, 2011)

Patterns purchased online and downloaded via pdf etc has to be printed of on a home printer so it in fact looks like a copy, am I suppose to be printing the receipt for the purchase and attaching it to the printed copy to prove that I actually purchased it??? 

I have seriously spend hundreds of dollars on purchased patterns but have never kept the email receipts, I am now wondering if I should have......All this confusion sure takes the fun out of something I have enjoyed doing for 50 years, and makes me wonder if it's worth purchasing patterns online anymore....


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## nsnewfie1996 (Nov 19, 2011)

Patterns purchased online and downloaded via pdf etc has to be printed of on a home printer so it in fact looks like a copy, am I suppose to be printing the receipt for the purchase and attaching it to the printed copy to prove that I actually purchased it??? 

I have seriously spend hundreds of dollars on purchased patterns but have never kept the email receipts, I am now wondering if I should have......All this confusion sure takes the fun out of something I have enjoyed doing for 50 years, and makes me wonder if it's worth purchasing patterns online anymore....


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

LynneA said:


> I have been asked here, privately, to send a copy of a pattern I bought. I always refer the person to the online address of the designer. Small designers depend on the sales of their creativity, the same as any artist. I believe in supporting them; if I like the pattern well enough to make it, then I believe in paying for it. And, yes, I'm on a fixed income.


It's always the best way to do things. I view it that a pattern costs about the same as a 50g ball of yarn in the UK; if I like a pattern enough to go out and buy the yarn, I like it enough to buy the pattern too. Besides, some patterns get used more than once, so they're a good investment and I keep a file of them for future reference along with my notes on the yarn I used.

Dave


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

nsnewfie1996 said:


> Patterns purchased online and downloaded via pdf etc has to be printed of on a home printer so it in fact looks like a copy, am I suppose to be printing the receipt for the purchase and attaching it to the printed copy to prove that I actually purchased it???
> 
> I have seriously spend hundreds of dollars on purchased patterns but have never kept the email receipts, I am now wondering if I should have......All this confusion sure takes the fun out of something I have enjoyed doing for 50 years, and makes me wonder if it's worth purchasing patterns online anymore....


No need, there's an electronic money trail for your online purchases, both the online publisher and the banks keep transaction records.

Dave


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## diobsession (Jun 29, 2011)

I can certainly understand the copyright laws when it comes to someone who is selling the pattern, but honestly I am still confused. In all of my patterns I have a favorite dishcloth that I copied from a free pattern site. I have made this simple little dishcloth for years for myself and friends. A short time ago I was looking through some of my old patterns. There was my dishcloth designed by someone else and copyrighted. Since then I bet I have seen three or four of the same pattern designed by all different people. Some say don't sell. Some say do what you want. All are a little different in what they allow about this pattern. SO The big question is that they can not all have a copyright to the same pattern. And if the person who says do not sell finds out that I have sold some of the dishclothes am I responsible to her or one of the other people?


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## immunurse (May 2, 2011)

I see there are 10 pages of replies already, so forgive me if I'm repeating something already pointed out (I don't have time to read all the pages today).

Can you contact the person who created the pattern?

I recently posted a photo on KP of something I had knitted from a printed pattern I bought several years ago. I knew people would ask me for the pattern, so I looked on the bottom of the flyer and called the phone number listed there. The woman who had created the pattern answered and told me to go ahead and copy her directions to this blog site. She said she is no longer interested in knitting -- she's become a weaver -- and didn't mind my violating her copyright.


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## pammie1234 (Apr 27, 2011)

courier770 said:


> "methods" are not copyrighted..such as the basic stitches "knit" or "purl".
> 
> Think of it this way, as a well known writer once said "all authors have the same basic tools, 26 letters of the alphabet, it's all about arranging them in the right way".
> 
> ...


Was it your exact pattern?


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## gmcmullen (Dec 29, 2011)

courier770 said:


> That's just ONE pattern, multiply it over and over again. Would you stand by and let someone take $5.00 out of your wallet, then let the next person do it and the next and the next?
> 
> In a forum such as this, with thousands of members don't you agree that $5.00 could just be the tip of the iceberg?


Actually, I , personally wouldn't copy a pattern for a friend, but I just gave away a bunch of knitting magazines to the Goodwill after I made items from some of those pages. I typically download the free patterns online and purchase booklets or individual patterns from Joanne's, Michael's or my LYS. I've been asked in public and private for the pattern I've used on my scarves--most of which are original designs --and I'm happy to share.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

When you purchase a pattern as a download there is a record of your purchase but that really isn't the issue. The issue with copyright is "duplication and distribution". That means photocopying/scanning the pattern and distributing it without permission of the copyright holder. No one is checking on legitimate sales.

As for patterns that appear identical with different names being attributed to copyright...hmmmm. Copyright can be sold, it happens all the time. Not knowing the exact situation I really can't comment.

As for my patterns, they are not available for free, so I'm not posting them anywhere but thanks for asking.


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## PauletteB. (Feb 7, 2012)

FireballDave said:


> PauletteB. said:
> 
> 
> > I have several books of knitting stitch patterns. They do not give patterns for garments just stitch patterns. For my own clarity , are you saying if we create a garment using these stitch patterns it could result in copyright infringement?
> ...


It does and thanks for the explanation.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Pammie, what was taken from me was not a knitting pattern but a series of magazine articles I had written. Another magazine group, reprinted the articles, word for word, in their publications, then distributed thousands of copies. They did give me credit for authoring but they had not paid me for the use of the articles nor had they gotten my permission.

I had maintained copyright on the articles and merely allowed use of the articles, by the first magazine for payment. 

You asked it it was my "exact" pattern, so I am guessing that you believe if a few minor changes are made this would circumvent copyright? The answer is no. Changing a stitch or two won't work if the design element(s) have been copied. Had the publications that reprinted my articles changed a few words it would not have made any difference in the outcome of the case. I still would have prevailed as I did.


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## tootsie001 (Jan 23, 2011)

Are libraries in violation of the copyright law when they make a copy of a pattern for you and not allow you to remove the book from the premises? The library purchased the book and patrons check it out and use the patterns without paying the creator of the patterns. Just wondering.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

this was already answered above. libraries are in the business of distributing materials, including how-to books. the intention of these books/magazines is for people to use them for their own purposes. if there are copywrite limitations to these patterns, the book needs to state it clearly. it would be a ridiculous situation for a book to be sold to a library that could not be used by the public.


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## pammie1234 (Apr 27, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Pammie, what was taken from me was not a knitting pattern but a series of magazine articles I had written. Another magazine group, reprinted the articles, word for word, in their publications, then distributed thousands of copies. They did give me credit for authoring but they had not paid me for the use of the articles nor had they gotten my permission.
> 
> I had maintained copyright on the articles and merely allowed use of the articles, by the first magazine for payment.
> 
> You asked it it was my "exact" pattern, so I am guessing that you believe if a few minor changes are made this would circumvent copyright? The answer is no. Changing a stitch or two won't work if the design element(s) have been copied. Had the publications that reprinted my articles changed a few words it would not have made any difference in the outcome of the case. I still would have prevailed as I did.


I just meant that it would be pretty "gutsy" to copy a pattern exactly, especially for distribution. I don't design patterns, yet; I just use the ones I have. I don't sell my things either. I really think it is interesting to know the ins and outs of copyright laws.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

courier770 said:


> When you purchase a pattern as a download there is a record of your purchase but that really isn't the issue. The issue with copyright is "duplication and distribution". That means photocopying/scanning the pattern and distributing it without permission of the copyright holder. No one is checking on legitimate sales.
> 
> As for patterns that appear identical with different names being attributed to copyright...hmmmm. Copyright can be sold, it happens all the time. Not knowing the exact situation I really can't comment.
> As for my patterns, they are not available for free, so I'm not posting them anywhere but thanks for asking.


No one asked you to post your patterns for free. They asked where to find them for purchase. I should think you would want such a huge audience to be able to find and purchase all your patterns, right? Since you are saying it it taking money out of your pocket when people give them to friends for free, don't you want to add money to your pocket by selling them to your KP friends?


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## sweetsue (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm not sure, but I think if the library takes a copy they do write it up for payment. I know at work, we had to make a note of any copies we made and return the book to our internal library with the number of pages copied from a book. I do know that you could copy a percentage of the book without being in breach of copyright. Doubt that would apply to patterns though??



tootsie001 said:


> Are libraries in violation of the copyright law when they make a copy of a pattern for you and not allow you to remove the book from the premises? The library purchased the book and patrons check it out and use the patterns without paying the creator of the patterns. Just wondering.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

I think part of the confusion on this topic is that there are two aspects to this whole thing that have very different answers. Personal use and public (commercial) use.

If you are knitting yourself a sweater and you buy a pattern (or get it from a book or out of the library) that is made with garter stitch and you want to use feather and fan stitch instead- there are no Knit Police coming to your house to drag you into court. If you want to give that "tweaked" sweater you knitted to your mother or your co-worker, no one is coming after you. How would anyone even know?!! I seriously doubt any normal designer would even care. They would just be happy you bought the pattern and they made money. If you use your stitch dictionary to find a nice stitch and use that stitch to make a sweater using that pattern you bought and then you wear it or give it to your sister for her birthday, no one cares. You are not "profiting" off someone else's design. It is just personal use. Designers expect you to use the pattern - that's what you bought it for.

On the other hand, if you buy that pattern and use it as is, or change the stitch but still use the basic pattern, and then you make 2000 sweaters and sell them as your own, you will have a big problem if the designer finds out. Let's be honest here - if know one realizes what you did and you don't care about stealing the designer's pattern, then it is all going to be between you and your conscience. It happens every day. But you are taking a big chance and are not a very nice person, and you deserve to get sued.

Then again, if you take that same pattern you purchased, or you tweak it a little, and then you try to sell the pattern on the open market, you will face the same consequences as selling the 2000 sweaters as your own - see above.

The bottom line is to use your common sense and your sense of ethics. I can't think of any designer caring that you use her pattern to make sweaters for yourself and then knit sweaters to give one to everyone you know. What the heck - maybe one of the recipients will like it enough to buy a pattern herself, right? There is no designer or Knit Police sitting in your living room watching you knit to see if you use the pattern as written or if you change it up some for yourself or a gift, or gifts. Or if you sell a couple at the school craft fair. However, if you start selling them at Walmart you are going to probably have a problem. If your best friend asks you for a copy of the pattern it is up to your conscience to decide if you are going to do it - you are in reality stealing from that designer. But again, there are no Knit Police sitting there with you. You'll have to follow your heart. If someone online- like this forum- asks you for a copy, don't give it to them, no matter how much they whine and plead poverty, their cat just died, or whatever. Tell them where they can get one for themselves, whether it is a free design or purchased design. If you just give it to them, it will get you into trouble, if only from the Admin of the forum, and again, you are stealing from the designer. 

As long as you use common sense you will be fine. I am not trying to make fun of anyone or make light of a serious subject, but after reading PAGES of posts on MULTIPLE threads with people bashing each other, I think it is time make it simple enough for everyone to understand and then to move on to topics that don't make the claws come out. . . . . . 

To those who might say I don't know what I am talking about because I have never suffered the tragedy of pattern theft, think again. I have sold patterns for things I have designed and I have had some of those patterns taken and sold by someone else. It is frustrating, but it happens. You learn and move on from it.


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

All this can get horribly off track, even when you don't do anything wrong.

There's a woman whose blog I follow. She's a Doctor Who fan, and there was an episode with some cute little alien creatures in it called Adapose. 

In the week after that episode (Partners in Crime), she designed a stuffed toy that looked exactly like an adapose, and posted the pattern free on her blog.

Some jerk printed out the pattern from her blog, with all the blog info, etc, on it, and was selling the printed out copies on e-bay!

She asked him to stop selling her pattern, and he responded by sending an email to BBC, telling them that SHE was selling the pattern on ebay!

They responded by threatening to sue her.

She told them what happened. They checked the facts. 

They sued the guy who was selling the patterns. They told her that they had no problem with her giving the patterns away, but she did such a great job on it, would she write some more patterns for them, enough to make a book, and they would publish the book for her?

So, she wound up with a book deal (which she made money from, and so did BBC). She'd already written about a dozen patterns, one for a dalek (called ExtermiKnit), and only had to write a few more.

So, there was a happy ending, but it got really confusing for a while.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

sweetsue said:


> I'm not sure, but I think if the library takes a copy they do write it up for payment. I know at work, we had to make a note of any copies we made and return the book to our internal library with the number of pages copied from a book. I do know that you could copy a percentage of the book without being in breach of copyright. Doubt that would apply to patterns though??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Libraries have lending rights agreements with publishers. The vast majority of public libraries in the UK are state-funded and run by town and county councils as a Library Service and their activities are subject to careful regulation as a public service.

University libraries and those in other academic institutions are subject to slightly different regulations, these are rigidly enforced by their staff. State (National) libraries such as the British Library and the National Art Library are the most carefully monitored of all, every item seen by an individual in their reading rooms is recorded against the reader, whose access to the collections requires registeration. Use of photocopiers and cameras is not entirely forbidden, but it is regulated and records are kept.

I can only describe the system in the UK, where there is a trail of records and accounts; I suspect similar systems operate in other rights territories.

Dave


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## gmcmullen (Dec 29, 2011)

lostarts said:


> All this can get horribly off track, even when you don't do anything wrong.
> 
> There's a woman whose blog I follow. She's a Doctor Who fan, and there was an episode with some cute little alien creatures in it called Adapose.
> 
> ...


Pretty cool story. Looks like all's well that ends well.


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## HandyFamily (Sep 30, 2011)

lostarts said:


> As for being in a different country, most developed countries have agreements with other countries concerning copyright law. So, being in a different country from where it's already copyrighted (even with a few subtle changes) probably won't absolve you.
> 
> This is a really complicated subject, and you really need a lawyer to definitively answer questions.


This is... not very much so.
If you hold a patent on something - say, an invention you had made, (like the design / as in technique of modern automatic (I'm lacking some words here) gear changer, which was made by a Bulgarian inventor, Rumen Antonov) in Bulgaria - and you did not pay for patenting it also - independently - in USA, Japan and... some other countries, you can come, read the patent, make a copy of it (which is very much legal, illegal would be to build the machine described in it, not read or copy it), go with it to USA, have it translated and... start making money. (This gay did not even bother to make a patent in Bg, but that's another story). So... holding a patent / copyright in one country does not necessary mean you are protected everywhere. I would suspect there is now some synchronization in the EU countries, but as for all others... there could be all kinds of law messes.


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

Some countries (most major ones) have agreements honoring each other's copyrights.

If you copyright something in the US, I would not count on that copyright holding up in another country, although it probably would.

I would similarly not buy a pattern from soneone who copyrighted it in another country and assune I had the right to copy it and sell it in the US.

Copyright law in the US is complicated enough when you're just discussing one country. When it becomes international, you really need a lawyer to say definatively what you can and cannot do.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

lostarts said:


> Some countries (most major ones) have agreements honoring each other's copyrights.
> 
> If you copyright something in the US, I would not count on that copyright holding up in another country, although it probably would.
> 
> ...


Except, most people do actually know what is ethical, that transcends international borders.

Dave


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## mavisb (Apr 18, 2011)

Tracey as you live in England, I would go to see a Solicitor to get the copyright sorted out so in your own mind you know what you can do and what you can't do. This will save you heaps of worry and as Every Country is different it is better to be safe than sorry. We can all discuss copyright laws to we are blue in the face, but some of us are not expert enough to advise you. Courier 770 knows the American copyright laws as she has her own designs, but obviously does not know the English copyright laws. The English copyright laws may well be very similar to the American copyright laws but you won't know until you have got your own legal advice.


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## joycevv (Oct 13, 2011)

I am still puzzling over the person who wouldn't let her friend photocopy a pattern because that would be illegal, and yet borrowed the pattern and used it without paying the designer! If she were as ethical as she thought she was, would she have even used the pattern she hadn't paid for? I think most of us share our patterns, books, etc. with close friends, and there's nothing immoral or unethical about it. Copyrights are meant to protect against mass publication, like posting on the internet, or claiming another's work as ones own. I should think most designers expect there's going to be some individual sharing going on.


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## sweetsue (Aug 12, 2011)

Not to mention all the second hand patterns we pick up at Thrift shops, give away, etc.
And others we just remember and pass on...but wouldn't remember where it came from. I guess that is like an ordinary v neck sweater etc. There would be no copyright or nobody could make v neck sweaters.


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## LynneA (Oct 2, 2011)

courier770 said:


> what was taken from me was not a knitting pattern but a series of magazine articles I had written. Another magazine group, reprinted the articles, word for word, in their publications, then distributed thousands of copies. They did give me credit for authoring but they had not paid me for the use of the articles nor had they gotten my permission.
> 
> I had maintained copyright on the articles and merely allowed use of the articles, by the first magazine for payment.
> 
> You asked it it was my "exact" pattern, so I am guessing that you believe if a few minor changes are made this would circumvent copyright? The answer is no. Changing a stitch or two won't work if the design element(s) have been copied. Had the publications that reprinted my articles changed a few words it would not have made any difference in the outcome of the case. I still would have prevailed as I did.


This does happen. 25 years ago, I was planning a trip to visit my parents in Hawaii, and decided to read everything available on the subject. I had a large library near me and borrowed every book on tourism, history, etc. I had been doing this for a while when I happened to be reading a book, published in the UK, which had huge portions of text that reminded me of something I had read previously. I found the other book, published by an well-known but unrelated company in the US, and about 3 years older. Word for word! Nowhere in the UK book was this "borrowing" explained or attributed. And, apparently, the writer had got away with with this theft.


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## LynneA (Oct 2, 2011)

vjh1530 said:


> courier770 said:
> 
> 
> > No one asked you to post your patterns for free. They asked where to find them for purchase. I should think you would want such a huge audience to be able to find and purchase all your patterns, right? Since you are saying it it taking money out of your pocket when people give them to friends for free, don't you want to add money to your pocket by selling them to your KP friends?
> ...


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## LynneA (Oct 2, 2011)

Vjh1530,
That was an excellent explanation! Thank you so much! That will surely help many people here.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

joycevv said:


> I am still puzzling over the person who wouldn't let her friend photocopy a pattern because that would be illegal, and yet borrowed the pattern and used it without paying the designer! If she were as ethical as she thought she was, would she have even used the pattern she hadn't paid for? I think most of us share our patterns, books, etc. with close friends, and there's nothing immoral or unethical about it. Copyrights are meant to protect against mass publication, like posting on the internet, or claiming another's work as ones own. I should think most designers expect there's going to be some individual sharing going on.


One purchase equals one physical copy, either paper or electronic. Copyright is about copying, the second paragraph of the _Statute of Anne_ makes this pretty clear:

http://www.copyrighthistory.com/anne.html

This is the text upon which all copyright law is based.

Dave


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## moke (Oct 8, 2011)

I agree joycevv, and if we all give credit to the designer, and get their name out there, I would think this is what the designer would strive for and want. and many patterns i buy and download all say, you are free to make and sell these items just respect my copyright. But, there are times when you have to copy a pattern, not for monitary gain, but for convenience. And i always always, try to give credit to the designer. But i for one will think twice before sharing information from a copyright pattern of any kind. but if I were in the design business i can tell you..i would be on here promoting the use of my patterns 24-7! lol but patterns i have purchased online..they send me an e-mail confiming my purchase..then send me the pattern to download..and print, and i can save this download and print as many copies as i want, now do not tell me that..many many many copies of this purchased pattern can not be made, and distributed and that it is done all the time, which is sad, but it must happen.


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## mavisb (Apr 18, 2011)

Courier 770 wrote in this blog some time ago that she worked for FEDEX because of the difficulties of filling in a lot of forms to send to international countries and that some companies\people are not prepared to fill in lengthy forms. I found there were no lengthy forms to ship from Australia to America and I have done this once or twice. Now I for one would love to see Courier 770 designs and if I like something to be able to purchase a pattern. Also Handy Family tell you to go on their website to purchase yarn because they sell it under Estey (or something like that), I have seen the yarns but have never tried them but certainly wouldn't buy the wool if I don't like it. I always make a working copy of any pattern that I make so I don't have to carry my original copy around to get ruined. I then file my work copy with the original pattern.

This is such an interesting subject.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

The forms to ship FROM America are different mavis. I can only speak about forms required by US customs which differ from those of other countries.

As for my designs and my identity, one of the great things about this forum is the ability to remain anonymous. I rather like that option. 

One should select designs that meet your lifestyle, your personal style preference, your skill level, etc.. This enables you to select designs from many designers. 

My designs are not available on the internet by my choice. You may already have purchased some, who knows?


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## LynneA (Oct 2, 2011)

I always give credit to the designer, but then I am not knitting for resale, anyway.

My UK books are quite specific:
"The designs here are copyrighted and must not be knitted for resale and copies of this book are protected on condition that they are used for non-commercial purposes."

It's really common sense that you don't pass off something that isn't yours as your own idea.


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

I read an article by an author who interviewed a copyright lawyer, and he said, that as a guideline, if you remember one thing you won't go wrong.

The test is: are you doing something that robs an author of income? If you are, it's probably illegal. If not, it's probably OK.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Thank you lostarts! Someone in one of these discussions said something to the effect of "what's the big deal over a $5.00 pattern?". Well the designers profit on that $5.00 pattern is pretty small actually but add up the sales of a few patterns and here's what you can have:
The co payment on a months worth of medication
A gallon or two of gasoline for a vehicle
A small bag of Groceries
A weeks worth of a utility bill
A pound of coffee or several pounds of sugar/flour, etc.
A deposit into a retirement fund or college fund
Well you get the idea.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Vicki, thank you very much for posting that! I really appreciate your pointing out a particularly painful period of my life. What makes you think I still live in the same location?"


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## HandyFamily (Sep 30, 2011)

lostarts said:


> Some countries (most major ones) have agreements honoring each other's copyrights.
> 
> If you copyright something in the US, I would not count on that copyright holding up in another country, although it probably would.
> 
> ...


That's just it, isn't it? You wouldn't take someone else' work and sell it as yours, I wouldn't - no matter copyrighted or not and where, not because it is not legal, but because it is not ours to sell. 
But if you look at something mine and be inspired from it and make something significant different... well, it's yours. If a painter looks at a garden and is inspired, goes to his/hers shop and paints something, the painting belongs, I thing, to the painter, not to the gardener.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Vicki, thank you very much for posting that! I really appreciate your pointing out a particularly painful period of my life. What makes you think I still live in the same location?"


You made those posts, not me, on that forum. And you seemed pretty happy in all of your posts on that site, not in pain. If you hadn't made all those laments about your stolen patterns and magazine articles, I never would have thought to google you. I was looking to see if there actually were any of your patterns or articles out there.

I am just pointing out that innocent posts can come back to haunt people later if they are not careful. I don't give two cents for where you live, and I doubt anyone else here does either. It's not all about you. But I am tired of your putting other people down when they ask questions or post something you don't agree with every time I open a new topic on this forum. I think you are very knowledgeable and have a lot to offer all of us here, but it gets lost in the bullying. I am only asking you to think before you post, and consider if what you have written is respectful toward the other people who have written posts.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I've not had a copyrighted pattern of mine pirated to my knowledge, only copyrighted articles. Since you don't know what name I publish under, you are not likely to find the information you seek by searching for my user name.

Thank you for interpreting how painful my divorce experience was or was not.

People will always have differing opinions and adults can and should be able to discuss those. The written word is often "flat" and devoid of inflection and tone. Just because one disagrees with another doesn't mean bullying is taking place. 

You really don't know what other people will do with personal information, now do you?

It wouldn't occur to me to post where information could be found on a member. When someone says they prefer to remain anonymous, I take them at their word and respect that wish.


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## hgayle (Aug 22, 2011)

Courier 770n, I am not trying to be judgmental, but I have to agree with vjh1530 that the tone of some of your posts does seem a little harsh.


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## tootsie001 (Jan 23, 2011)

Last summer I was on vacation if Michigan and went to a lys and in the parking lot was a group of knitters who had formed a group. Their group not only knitted together but established their own knitting library. This way they only had to purchase one knitting book and share it among their members. I guess because they all shared in the cost of the books, it made them all partial owners. I don't think anyone sharing a pattern that was purchased and not using it for monetary benefit is unethical or illegal. You now own the pattern, same a pint of milk. Drink it yourself, share it with someone, make it into pudding, or soup. That is your ownership right. I don't think it is worth hurting a friends feelings over not sharing a recipe or pattern.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

hgayle, that's no excuse for posting what was posted. We are adults here, free to agree or disagree. Posting what was posted is clearly uncalled for.


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## pugmom5 (Feb 19, 2011)

nsnewfie1996 said:


> Patterns purchased online and downloaded via pdf etc has to be printed of on a home printer so it in fact looks like a copy, am I suppose to be printing the receipt for the purchase and attaching it to the printed copy to prove that I actually purchased it???
> 
> I have seriously spend hundreds of dollars on purchased patterns but have never kept the email receipts, I am now wondering if I should have......All this confusion sure takes the fun out of something I have enjoyed doing for 50 years, and makes me wonder if it's worth purchasing patterns online anymore....


I found a pattern I loved on line and knew my daughter would like it too. I ordered two. The company I downloaded from wanted to know If I made a mistake and only wanted one copy. I emailed them back that I wanted a copy for me and one for my daughter. They were so surprised that I was so honest, (I mean, I could have just printed it out twice and no one would be the wiser) They gave me a credit so I could buy another pattern. Honesty does pay off.


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## denisejh (May 20, 2011)

Amber-That's happened to me a couple of times. I think there's more than one company out in the universe that rewards honesty. I continue to do business with them for that reason.


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

Tracey24 said:


> I often marvel at all the wonderful designs that people have created. I found a lovely stitch design that I would like to have a go at turning into a garment and put onto a web page. Does any person know, if you are allowed to do such a thing? I am so confused by the copyright laws. The pattern was many years ago incorporated into an adult pattern that I think would look nice on a baby cardigan. If any body that has made a pattern up I would appreciate any advise as the more I read the more confusing at appears


Wendy Bernard has two books she has written - Custom Knits and Custom Knits 2 which are invaluable in terms of creating your own knit designs. She also has basic patterns and specializes in one piece- nearly seamless knitting.


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## pugmom5 (Feb 19, 2011)

denisejh said:


> Amber-That's happened to me a couple of times. I think there's more than one company out in the universe that rewards honesty. I continue to do business with them for that reason.


I have a list of companies that have gone the extra mile when I have ordered something to download...so when I go looking for a pattern, I go to them first.

When I was making items to sell to raise money for Cancer research, some of the items were from "little" designers, and it clearly stated to contact them if making more than on/or not for personal use. Every designer I contacted was happy for me to use their designs as long as I gave them credit. So on the little tags I made for fabric content and care, I also gave the designers name/blog/contact.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

LynneA said:


> I always give credit to the designer, but then I am not knitting for resale, anyway.
> 
> My UK books are quite specific:
> "The designs here are copyrighted and must not be knitted for resale and copies of this book are protected on condition that they are used for non-commercial purposes."
> ...


Some books do include either that clause, or something similar, the extent to which this is enforceable is questionable. There have been a few attempts in recent years to limit the use to which the contents of a variety of instruction manuals can be put. Cases are trundling through the system, some courts have ruled such a restriction imposes unreasonable constraints on the freedom of the individual to make use of things they had learned, others have ruled the use for commercial purposes means it is reasonable for a designer or publisher to issue and be paid a fee for a 'licence to manufacture'.

At the moment judgements are on a case by case basis and are largely related to scale and purpose, although a couple of companies have been pressing to get an enforceable blanket ruling. One of them against a group of parishioners selling craft items at a church bazaar to raise funds for charity, my personal views concerning the antics of this particular company and its legal team are fairly unprintable.

Whether common sense will prevail, remains to be seen, I personally hope there is room for a sense of scale in any final rulings.

It is worthwhile remembering, because in the vast majority of instances copyright infringements are a matter for the civil rather than criminal courts, it is up to the rights holder to decide whether or not he or she feels his or her rights have been infringed and whether to pursue the matter through the appropriate channels, or not.

Dave


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Dave,
Where did the ruling against the Church group occur? I'm in no way siding with that company, just want to make sure I avoid them (the company that is)! There are some designers who specifically create designs to be used for charitable purposes, hope the group ruled against can find one.


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## denisejh (May 20, 2011)

Amber-I've never had a designer turn me down when I request permission for charity knitting and I know, in the long run, the designer received benefit as well as the charity. Everybody comes out a winner.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Dave,
> Where did the ruling against the Church group occur? I'm in no way siding with that company, just want to make sure I avoid them (the company that is)! There are some designers who specifically create designs to be used for charitable purposes, hope the group ruled against can find one.


It happened in the Midlands in the UK, the courts originally rejected the action, the company appealed and that was also rejected, they've now raised the stakes. Fortunately the group's defence is funded, quite a few people feel there needs to be a sense of 'reasonableness'. The case is currently headed for Europe, so there's a 'hold' on similar actions.

Dave


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Dave, thanks for the speedy reply. You are correct that "reasonableness" needs to be applied. I will try to find the information. I'd also like to offer one of my designs for use by the group, perhaps I can encourage a few others to do the same.

Charity is a noble cause that should not be overlooked, nor held to the same standard as "industry".


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

courier770 said:


> hgayle, that's no excuse for posting what was posted. We are adults here, free to agree or disagree. Posting what was posted is clearly uncalled for.


People have repeatedly nicely asked you to stop denigrating others, but you keep going. I would not have posted such a thing about anyone else, but if you can be harsh to others, you should expect it in return. Maybe next time you want to make nasty comments against another, you will remember how it felt. And if no one has stalked you since you posted all that, like four years ago, I doubt they are gonna do it now. That's it, I'm done with this whole topic.

Sorry to anyone else who may have been offended.


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## umozabeads (Oct 14, 2011)

I am a beadwork designer and a knitwear designer. While I understand your need to put things straight, if you had completely read her query before you started you would have seen that what she wanted to know was about a stitch pattern; not a design. All she would have to do is to look the design up and if if was not copyrighted then she could use it. If it was she could seek permission from the original designer if they are still living and their heirs do not have continued legal control. I have been stolen from as well, but I have chosen not to take away from my design time to sue people because in the long run they are the real losers. There are too many people out there that know my work and have reported to me. I send them an email or message and let them know that it is my design and in every instance they have stopped. You have the right to feel the way you do, but I wanted to add my opinion, because you are now appearing on the attack and I don't want to see this person decide on NOT being a designer because she is afraid that someone like you will bounce on her! There is certainly room in the world for all of us! Happy Knitting! :thumbup:


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I do not believe I've done anything but reinforce my opinions which you are free to ignore, you on the other hand just admitted to doing this in a retaliatory fashion. Thank you so much for clarifying your purpose.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

I think there may have been some confusion as to what constitutes a _stitch pattern_ and what is meant by the term, many disputes concern vocabulary.

If one means the formation or working of a single stitch, that is considered a process and whilst it may be patentable, is not subject to copyright. Of course, were one to devise a completely new and intricate method of forming a unique stitch and to publish it, the wording and any supporting graphics and photographs in such a publication would be subject to copyright.

Similarly, were the arrangement of existing stitches, plain and purl for example, to be such as to create a pictorial representation of something, a helicopter for example, that pattern and any charts for its working would be subject to copyright in the same way as the design for a picture worked using coloured yarns or threads.

On the other hand, many stitch patterns, moss stitch for example, are traditional and have been in the public domain for more than a century, they are common terms for repeat stitch patterns used extensively. Only the graphic illustration or photograph of such a stitch pattern would be subject to copyright and that would be the property of the artist or photographer responsible for the image. Use of such a commonly-used stitch cannot be restricted.

Dave


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## umozabeads (Oct 14, 2011)

I am simply amazed! That is all I can say! Where does it say that I have retaliated by suing someone; I simply contacted someone and reminded them that it was my pattern. I really respect everyone on this forum and for the most part I have had fun; but this situation has gotten way out of hand! There is simply too much name calling and bitterness that should not being taking place. So, sit down, take a deep breath, and go knit something!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Name calling never has a place or time. Ever.


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

First...I did not read more than the first couple of pages because this subject always turns into such a soap opera and the personal stories begin that completely distract from what the person was asking in the first place. 

This subject just never has a happy ending when discussed here. 

I just wanted to say I am taking psp lessons that are copyright and am not allowed to copyright the orginal art but I can watermark my imaging. 

If a copyright image is used in the lesson I cannot remove the copyright but I add my watermark to it.

If there is a problem with it take it up with my teacher. 

I'm sure there is an expert here that knows all about the subject of watermarks to.


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## diobsession (Jun 29, 2011)

Many, many years ago when I first got married I was on a small budget. When I purchased my pattern books (Couldn't wait for the next issue of McCall['s Needlework and Crafts) my neighber Jackie shared with me. See, she had 6 kids and barely enough to make due. I always felt good about sharing. Thought it was the right thing to do. Now I find out I was stealing from a designer!!!! I believed that when I purchased my McCalls it was Mine and I could do what I wanted with it. The designer had sold the pattern to McCalls and in selling me the magazine I had purchased my little part of it. Many years have passed but we are still friends and still share patterns, only now when she chooses something from my patterns I go to the site and print the pattern for her. Oh well times have changed. I enjoy having access to tons of free patterns but when something is given away it is still hard to understand how you can be told how to use it. I to am leaving this discussion.


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## LynneA (Oct 2, 2011)

You weren't stealing from the designer when you let a friend use your magazine. The magazine was intended to be paid for once and then used. It's a pity that you are leaving the discussion and won't read this.


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## sweetsue (Aug 12, 2011)

Weird. I thought this was just a discussion but some people are taking it far too seriously. (Not the copyright issue of course).
So... if you are getting a little hot under the collar about the subject ... instead of finding it interesting ... then unwatch the topic ... back to the knitting!


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## LynneA (Oct 2, 2011)

Sweetsue:
Good advice


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

diobsession said:


> Many, many years ago when I first got married I was on a small budget. When I purchased my pattern books (Couldn't wait for the next issue of McCall's Needlework and Crafts) my neighber Jackie shared with me. See, she had 6 kids and barely enough to make due. I always felt good about sharing. Thought it was the right thing to do. Now I find out I was stealing from a designer!!!! I believed that when I purchased my McCalls it was Mine and I could do what I wanted with it. The designer had sold the pattern to McCalls and in selling me the magazine I had purchased my little part of it. Many years have passed but we are still friends and still share patterns, only now when she chooses something from my patterns I go to the site and print the pattern for her. Oh well times have changed. I enjoy having access to tons of free patterns but when something is given away it is still hard to understand how you can be told how to use it. I to am leaving this discussion.


But you were and are doing thngs precisely the way they should be done. Passing a magazine over to a friend is what should happen. Likewise, with free patterns, going to the site to print out each copy is the correct route.

Restrictions on the way patterns are used is contentious and there are still question marks over some of the restrictions being imposed by some publishers. In some ways it could be likened to the disparity in the cost of computer software for commercial and private users.

Dave


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## moke (Oct 8, 2011)

omg linda lee that is sooo beautiful...!! please post more when you do them.. I love them....oh that lavender flower..and the detail in the birds...is amazing!


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## nsnewfie1996 (Nov 19, 2011)

hgayle said:


> Courier 770n, I am not trying to be judgmental, but I have to agree with vjh1530 that the tone of some of your posts does seem a little harsh.


I agree with both of you 100%, ,,,,,


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## mousepotato (May 30, 2011)

sweetsue said:


> Except Tracey is in the UK and I am in Oz. Not sure how it all works so probably better just to make it for yourself and not share.


International copyright laws and US copyright laws are virtually identical. It doesn't really matter what part of the world you are in to find out that they apply.


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## hgayle (Aug 22, 2011)

PaKnitter said:


> First...I did not read more than the first couple of pages because this subject always turns into such a soap opera and the personal stories begin that completely distract from what the person was asking in the first place.
> 
> This subject just never has a happy ending when discussed here.
> 
> ...


What is psp painting? That is really beautiful.


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## mavisb (Apr 18, 2011)

I must admit I am interested to where people come from so I can learn about their country, customs and quirkie things they say. People think I am mad at times, because I come out with quirkie English sayings not that the Aussies always understand what I am saying. I realise some people wish for legal reasons to remain in hiding, it is their choice, I wouldn't like to be in hiding myself. If a person doesn't want to give their personal details so be it. We all have choices and we have to make those choices ourselves without any help.


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## HandyFamily (Sep 30, 2011)

I did not yet read thru the end, but...

The example with the commercial company buying a pattern and making millions pieces of it...
1. If it is cheaper than buying the pattern and materials and doing it yourself it means it is not handmade, but machine-knighted - and there is a difference. In the looks of it. Or made with cheaper yarn - and there will be a difference. Not always worst, but definitely different.
2. Even if it weren't so - and it obviously is.
I am a knitter. I enjoy knitting. I would never buy anything knitted by someone else. It takes away my pleasure. Which means, I am not a potential customer to that commercial company. And if I weren't a knitter, whatever would I do with that pattern!? I wouldn't be a potential buyer to that designer anyhow. I like things I make myself for the reason that they are unique, no one else will have one like mine. How would millions of pieces per week satisfy that need of mine? I am obviously not their target. And if I was someone who just wanted to go with the current fashion, as quickly and cheap as possible, I am obviously no target to any designer. No designer is loosing money for me waring the commercial product for I was never a potential buyer of theirs. And for me being a knitter and designer - no commercial company is loosing money, no matter if they invested in the design of their products and how much, for I never was their potential customer.


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## Augustgran (Apr 16, 2011)

If you dont want to get in trouble with the copyright issue thern just don't buy from that designer!!


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## jangmb (Oct 27, 2011)

grandmasheryl said:


> If you dont want to get in trouble with the copyright issue thern just don't buy from that designer!!


I agree. After some of these posts there are some I will absolutely ignore let alone not purchase from. I also still cannot imagine why a person posing an honest question for help with copyright has to be so attacked. Since this post started I have googled copyright and there are sites out there to help people get started. Sorry I did not write down their IP address so I could have shared here.


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## BSH (Oct 8, 2011)

That is exactly what needs to be done, by mailing it to yourself. Anything creative of mind; music, drawing or a idea you talked to a company about making. I learned this the hard way.



AuntKnitty said:


> A copyright is quite different from a patent and no, you wouldn't patent a knitting pattern. Perhaps if you came up with an entirely new kind of garment, you would want to patent it, but a pattern, no.
> 
> I do a simple 'home copyright', one I was told by an attorney would stand up in court. This is the process. I start with a sketch or a description of what I want to knit. I research stitches, techniques, etc and make note of where the information came from. I make notes and date them.
> 
> ...


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## BSH (Oct 8, 2011)

denisejh said:


> BSH-Thanks to you and Sewbizgirl for the downloads. Both will come in quite handy and are good to have. Thanks for the effort!!


Your welcome. I have shared that a few times and in a topic those notes are a great knit saver!


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## umozabeads (Oct 14, 2011)

It is really a shame that something as simple as a question about a stitch pattern ballooned into so much adversity and ill feelings. I came to this site to enjoy the company of other knitters and it has been this way and I love it. However, with that said, I too will be leery of certain members from now on and will not get into a discussion when they are present. But I am NOT leaving this site, there are too many good people on here to allow one or two to ruin the experience. Well, that's my two cents and everyone please have a safe and most excellent week! Happy Knitting!!!!


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## GudrunM (Feb 17, 2012)

FireballDave said:


> GudrunM said:
> 
> 
> > thanks a bunch for this site, it is wonderful. I just created a pattern on normal graph paper and I see now that won't work. i clicked on knitting graphp paper and a shopping site came up. I guess I am missing something. I will google knitting graph paper and I will find it......I hope.
> ...


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

GudrunM said:


> Hi Dave,
> Sorry for the slow reply. My forums were going to spam. I wondered why I wassn't getting any more messages. And thanks a lot for this site, does this mean that different gauges need different graph paper? I did not know this.
> Gudrun


Yes, different yarn and needle combinations will knit to a different sitches:rows ratio. That means if you are designing a pattern, particularly an intarsia or relief picture, you need to check the gauge you are knitting to with your chosen combination. If you get it wrong, the knitted textile will either compress or elongate the image.

I generally use DK weight yarn on 4mm (US size 6) and knit at 22 stitches to 28 rows over 4"/10cms. That means I must chart my images on paper with a stitch:row ratio of 1:1.27 to get them come out correctly when knitted.

No escaping the test swatch I'm afraid!

Hope that explains it for you
Dave


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## GudrunM (Feb 17, 2012)

Very clear, thanks sp much.



FireballDave said:


> GudrunM said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Dave,
> ...


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## 3star777 (Sep 13, 2011)

I would hope the 'poor man's copyright' as it is sometimes called, would stand up in court but before you trust it completely I would consult more than one attorney. My son writes music and he was mailing his stuff to himself but after purchasing a book on copyright law and trademarks the author warns against it because it has not 'always' stood up in court. Maybe music has a separate set of rules, or maybe the laws have changed, but I don't think I would take that chance. If you 'really' want to protect your creation bite the bullet, pay the fee and mail it to the US Copyright office in Washington DC.



BSH said:


> That is exactly what needs to be done, by mailing it to yourself. Anything creative of mind; music, drawing or a idea you talked to a company about making. I learned this the hard way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

3star777 said:


> I would hope the 'poor man's copyright' as it is sometimes called, would stand up in court but before you trust it completely I would consult more than one attorney. My son writes music and he was mailing his stuff to himself but after purchasing a book on copyright law and trademarks the author warns against it because it has not 'always' stood up in court. Maybe music has a separate set of rules, or maybe the laws have changed, but I don't think I would take that chance. If you 'really' want to protect your creation bite the bullet, pay the fee and mail it to the US Copyright office in Washington DC.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A copy lodged with your bank is acceptable as proof of the date on which this was done. Regardless of recent events, courts in all countries accept their clearing banks can get the date right, even if some are a bit hazy about other details!

Dave


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## tabberone (Mar 19, 2012)

Several points need to be made here.

There are absolutely NO federal lawsuits concerning the use of a pattern to make and sell an item. None, nada, zilch, zero. Why is that? Because it is a loser for the pattern designer. 

Contrary to the assertions of pattern designers, their assumed copyrights do NOT cover the articles made from the patterns. First, selling the pattern to make the article grants implied permission to make and sell the article. Second, if the article is clothing, copyright protection does not extend to clothing or other useful articles. Third, for a perceived copyright to be enforceable, it MUST be registered with the US Copyright Office. Fourth, most copyright registration for patterns are rejected by the US Copyright Office because they are considered to be templates, and/or instructions, which are not copyrightable. Fifth, the US Supreme Court declared in 1879 that a copyright on a dress pattern did not extend to the dress manufactured from that design.

Commercial use of a pattern is not barred by law. Nor is it a right of restriction granted by copyright law to the owner of the copyright. If you sell the pattern you relinquish the right to control what is done with the pattern. US Supreme Court, 1998. 

A knitting pattern may be registered but only to the extent of protection for the instructions for making the article, not the pattern itself. Methods cannot be copyrighted. 

Under US Copyright Law, a copyright must be registered BEFORE any federal court actions may be initiated. And, if the registration takes place AFTER the alleged infringement, the copyright owner does not get statutory damages or legal fees. Most people who claim they have copyright registration certificates for patterns are lying. We have not found a single federal lawsuit where a person has won a copyright claim without a registration certificate. 

FireballDave misquotes the basic rules.

AuntKnitty  FYI  no federal court has ever accepted a personal mailing, unopened, registered mail or not, as proof of originality. That is an urban myth. US Copyright Law is specific in its wording about registration as proof of origin.


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## tootsie001 (Jan 23, 2011)

Maybe there should be a thread called legal. That way those of us who are retired and knit at leisure, pleasure, and non profit would know not to open that subject. I hope this subject can be terminated before any more people get hurt feelings and get discouraged at this site. RIP


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## Tracey24 (Dec 31, 2011)

Well now. After a weekend of deliberating and some more. Hours of wading through books and the internet, I only went and found the pretty stitch. Been around forever, so commencement will begin on my project. No theiving has been required, no sueing will be necessary, just my brain to make the actual garment and maybe the growth of another pair of hands he he :thumbup: :-D :-D


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## LynneA (Oct 2, 2011)

tracey24,


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## umozabeads (Oct 14, 2011)

Tabberone: Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!! Have an absolutely wonderful week!


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## sweetsue (Aug 12, 2011)

You go girl! Looking forward to seeing your creation.
Hugs
Sue



Tracey24 said:


> Well now. After a weekend of deliberating and some more. Hours of wading through books and the internet, I only went and found the pretty stitch. Been around forever, so commencement will begin on my project. No theiving has been required, no sueing will be necessary, just my brain to make the actual garment and maybe the growth of another pair of hands he he :thumbup: :-D :-D


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## jbuell (Mar 5, 2012)

I completely agree with tabberone. can we please move on.


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## usafwife (Feb 16, 2012)

courier770 said:


> "methods" are not copyrighted..such as the basic stitches "knit" or "purl".
> 
> Think of it this way, as a well known writer once said "all authors have the same basic tools, 26 letters of the alphabet, it's all about arranging them in the right way".
> 
> ...


See, I'm just confused to how this all works. It's not as if you created the hat, or scarf, what happens when someone makes something truly on their own, and you think it looks a lot like yours, when in fact they had _never_ seen yours?

I constantly see patterns on ravelry that look extremely similar, but that doesn't mean someone stole the idea from someone else. I've made things myself and seen things very similar, not exact obviously but... similar, after posting my patterns.

And as others have said, it would mean that no one would be able to create patterns. I'm sure you have a pattern that has a predecessor very very similar to it. You can't own the rib stitch, or cable stitches, or the hundreds of other well known and loved arrangements of knit and purls.


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## usafwife (Feb 16, 2012)

And no, I did not take the time to read the 16 pages, hah. Maybe if I ever decide to sell a pattern, I will.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

Tracey24 said:


> Well now. After a weekend of deliberating and some more. Hours of wading through books and the internet, I only went and found the pretty stitch. Been around forever, so commencement will begin on my project. No theiving has been required, no sueing will be necessary, just my brain to make the actual garment and maybe the growth of another pair of hands he he :thumbup: :-D :-D


Good luck and have lots of fun with it, I hope all the sums work out nicely for you. I love sitting at my desk trying to work out how to get the shaping etc., to work. For me, the journey from rough sketch to finished article is what makes knitting so engrossing, but I like maths!

Dave


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## tabberone (Mar 19, 2012)

courier770 - what did they steal? A pattern? Did they copy the pattern and resell it?

Can you provide us with the case number and district it was filed in so we can see what was claimed and what the court decision said?

We are always looking to update our website with information.

To date we hadn't been able to locate any lawsuits concerning patterns, perhaps our search parameters were wrong.

If you could provide us with more information we could update our website with more information.


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## moke (Oct 8, 2011)

I agree...let's move on. But there are several designers I will not purchase patterns from now. too afraid, i would have to keep the pattern under lock and key and only wear the article to bed!


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## mknitter (Aug 4, 2011)

After my last posting, re lawyer costing me too much ($200 an hour TO START, then $400 an hour if he needed help), and still not getting any usable information, (and on top of that, the lawyer wouldn't guarantee that anything he would come up with would stand up in court), I contacted my Canadian Copyright office and asked them about copyrighting stitch patterns, since all their published copyright information pertains to music, art, writing and movies. Their reply was that the do not interpret the law, offer legal advice, or conduct searches. I was to get a lawyer if I needed that information.
Also, on one of the other topics here, the lawyer did tell me something useful afterall - DO NOT send a registered copy of the your pattern to yourself, as it would NOT stand up in court and would be a waste of postage. That's what the law says here in Canada. You have to pay the fees and register the copyright.


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## umozabeads (Oct 14, 2011)

Tabberone, my eldest grand daughter attends Western School of Law here and her tort instructor has put them on the case! They are doing searches now to determine if there have been any cases filed in the US in relation to knitting, quilting, sewing, crocheting, and even beadwork in which there was an actual trial and what the outcome was. He gave them a two week window so I will get back to you!


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## usafwife (Feb 16, 2012)

umozabeads said:


> Tabberone, my eldest grand daughter attends Western School of Law here and her tort instructor has put them on the case! They are doing searches now to determine if there have been any cases filed in the US in relation to knitting, quilting, sewing, crocheting, and even beadwork in which there was an actual trial and what the outcome was. He gave them a two week window so I will get back to you!


I'm very interested in this update as well.


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## tabberone (Mar 19, 2012)

That would be interesting.

MrTabberone does searches every day and hasn't found one yet where a pattern designer took anyone to court over using a pattern to make something to sell.

It would have to be major case law to overturn a Supreme Court ruling from 1879. And I think it would have to go back to the Supreme Court to be heard.


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## AvonelleRed (Jun 29, 2011)

tabberone, please look back through the posts. Courier did in fact clarify that it was not a knitting pattern which she went to court for. It was a copyrighted magazine article. I believe it was knitting-related, though, but can't be sure without wading through all of the posts again to find where she posted it.


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## umozabeads (Oct 14, 2011)

that is what my GD said yesterday when I was telling her about this. That is when she put the question to her instructor.


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## tabberone (Mar 19, 2012)

I still would be interested in seeing the case.

I've got case numbers and my filings on my website to back up what I say. I rarely say anything without some facts to back it up.


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## AvonelleRed (Jun 29, 2011)

tabberone said:


> I still would be interested in seeing the case.
> 
> I've got case numbers and my filings on my website to back up what I say. I rarely say anything without some facts to back it up.


I understand. I am very interested in this topic myself. I have been working in the embroidery field for 20+ years, so deal with this stuff pretty frequently.

I would be interested in seeing your website. Would you share the link with us, or PM it to me?

Thanks!


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

Copyright legislation in the UK differs from America's, here it is automatic and affords greater protection to the originator of works, right down to the type-setting and format used to publish a work. Further information can be found at the UK Intellectual Property Office's website:

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/copy

With regard to selling knitted articles made from a pattern, their advice is located at:

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/c-other-faq-type-knitting.htm

As I suggested earlier, the rules differ between territories.

Hope that clarifies any misunderstanding

Dave


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## tabberone (Mar 19, 2012)

There have been a couple of comments that require comment and clarification. On my web site, I routinely cite statutes and court cases to back my statements. My detractors rarely do. I do not advocate a particular legal position but rather what the law says. Show me where i am wrong and I will change the material on the web site. 

jaciqltznok
Yes, copyright law is controversial but really only on boards such as this. Designers and "artists" want to protect their works beyond the protections provided by copyright law. And that is where I tend to get involved. 

Copying and distributing patterns IS WRONG. Period. We are in agreement on this issue. But we are not in agreement with some of your other statements. The "rules" governing fabric use are an "urban myth". It has nothing to do with overseas. When you purchase the fabric, it is yours to use as intended, to sew into an article to use. And as such, that article, like clothing, is considered a useful article and the article is not covered by US Copyright Law. Irregardless of the claims of the pattern designer. Contrary to your claim, the designer and the manufacturing company have already been compensated for their efforts when the fabric is purchased at retail so they suffer no loss by the use of the fabrics. 

I have been in federal court, representing myself, with M&M/Mars, Disney, Major League Baseball, Sanrio (Hello Kitty), Debbie Mumm, and United Media (Peanuts), over the use of their licensed fabrics to make and sell articles. EVERY TIME, these companies wanted to settle rather than fight the issue. 

Permission is not required. Period.

qbquilts
My website has been out there for 13+ years. Not one lawyer has submitted a court decision contradicting what we are claiming. We are more than willing to alter any information provided we are shown a statute or court decision that contradicts what we are claiming. We have seen NONE.

Yes, one can find themselves entangled in a copyright court case regardless of whether they are in the right or not. However, these cases rarely go to trial because the consequences of losing are very large. Few lawyers are willing to pursue cases that are losers. That is why frivolous cases are few.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

Tabberone, what type of work do you do and what type of website do you have?


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

Never mind, found it.


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## PauletteB. (Feb 7, 2012)

The results of the research will be very interesting. I will be looking for your post.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

Interesting website! Lots to read. Look forward to your future posts!


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## thesinger (May 16, 2016)

I am trying to find instructions on how to design my own short sleeved sweater. I've already taken measurements and have knitted the back to 12 inches in length with 2 inches of 2 by 2 ribbing and 10 inches of seed stitch. I want to figure out which way to design the sleeves sewn in set in sleeves, stitches added to each side and knitted completely or what? And I want to do short rows in front to accommodate bustline. Any advice would help. This is worsted weight cotton yarn (sugar 'n cream). Thanks!


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

sweetsue said:


> If you make a few subtle changes (which of course you will) it can be your own.
> Here is a site that gives you options for creating your own graphs.
> http://domestikgoddess.com/3-easy-ways-to-chart-a-knitting-pattern/


The directions here are for designing a colorwork pattern to put on a garment. It doesn't cover how to create stitch patterns or whole designs.


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## deexer (Sep 25, 2012)

courier770 said:


> No! "subtle changes" are not enough to satisfy copyright laws. Take the time to FULLY research copyright law. If your "design" was "inspired" by that of another....you may well be committing copyright infringement.
> 
> Currently I hold copyright on about 50 designs, you better believe I will do everything possible to protect that right.
> 
> ...


I agree that with copyright laws especially because this is your business and you need to be paid like any other job. I don't know how I would know if someone has a copyright on a stitch I would like to use that I accidently created. 
What about Stitch a Day, would those be copyright?


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

A particular stitch wouldn't be copyrightable, but your description of how to do that stitch would be copyrightable.

I hope that makes sense to you. It does to me, but sounds weird when I write it down.


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## Ask4j (May 21, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Please take a few moments to actually read copyright law. As a copyright holder on many patterns and copyright that does not apply to knitting, I have an attorney representing my interests. Don't try to interpret the law on your own, just obey it.


Yes and you (courier) have clarified copyright in the past very nicely. When I did a search, there were so many topics on this subject--you do need to read and read some more until it makes sense and you understand. No quick fix here. Good thing this comes up now and then to remind us. Copying someone else's work is NOT a good thing. "Being inspired" has it's difficulties. Looking at something totally unrelated for inspiration, like a flower or common design or ancient cultures, no problem--I have all these things floating in my head but just don't have the ambition I once did--takes a lot of energy being creative!


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

Ask4j said:


> Yes and you (courier) have clarified copyright in the past very nicely. When I did a search, there were so many topics on this subject--you do need to read and read some more until it makes sense and you understand. No quick fix here. Good thing this comes up now and then to remind us. Copying someone else's work is NOT a good thing. "Being inspired" has it's difficulties. Looking at something totally unrelated for inspiration, like a flower or common design or ancient cultures, no problem--I have all these things floating in my head but just don't have the ambition I once did--takes a lot of energy being creative!


Writing a pattern is a lot of work. Designers deserve to get paid for it.

The ultimate question to ask yourself when publishing a pattern is, will it deprive the other person of a sale, and thus, income? Or is it different enough that it's not competition?

If it's not competition, you're probably OK.


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## deexer (Sep 25, 2012)

lostarts said:


> A particular stitch wouldn't be copyrightable, but your description of how to do that stitch would be copyrightable.
> 
> I hope that makes sense to you. It does to me, but sounds weird when I write it down.


I understand. Thanks.


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