# Something big is suppose to happen in September...



## Dish Cloth Diva (Mar 31, 2012)

I have been reading quite a few articles about "something big" is supped to happen in America, come September. I have friends that have been stocking up on food, water, powdered milk and all the necessities for several days, including can openers, wood and cash... etc..

Have any of you done this? You can PM me if you would like...thank you...I haven't yet myself. I do plan on getting a few things...wine, chips, chocolate, yarn, tea..and toilet paper of course... In all seriousness, I am planning on doing a big shopping trip in the next couple of weeks...


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Dish Cloth Diva said:


> I have been reading quite a few articles about "something big" is supped to happen in America, come September. I have friends that have been stocking up on food, water, powdered milk and all the necessities for several days, including can openers, wood and cash... etc..
> 
> Have any of you done this? You can PM me if you would like...thank you...I haven't yet myself. I do plan on getting a few things...wine, chips, chocolate, yarn, tea..and toilet paper of course... In all seriousness, I am planning on doing a big shopping trip in the next couple of weeks...


Something big has gonna happen since man could communicate.


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## no1girl (Sep 4, 2012)

WindingRoad said:


> Something big has gonna happen since man could communicate.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

cakes said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Terrible sentence but I couldn't figure out how to phrase it. I guess you got it cakes anyway. LOL


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

:roll:


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## Jenny E (Sep 5, 2011)

If every time people stocked up when something big was going to happen, they would not need to go to the supermarket for years !

If something big is going to happen, I wouldn't want to survive to live in a world that was not as I know it now.

People are playing with your mind. Don't give them the pleasure of knowing they have succeeded in frightening you.


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## JillF (Feb 17, 2011)

Yes, it's always the end is coming for one reason or another, but I haven't heard of a doomsday recently. It never hurts to stock up though, as long as it's stuff that you will really use.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Oh, I will be stocking up all right --- for my winter hibernation as I do not travel out much at all; and to prepare for those blizzards.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> Oh, I will be stocking up all right --- for my winter hibernation as I do not travel out much at all; and to prepare for those blizzards.


Here in the North East "they" say we are to have a mild winter. Ever wonder who "they" are??? LOL


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## Jenny E (Sep 5, 2011)

I will stock up on specials, but I like the idea of stocking up for hibernation galaxycraft More time for knitting. he he


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Here in the North East "they" say we are to have a mild winter. Ever wonder who "they" are??? LOL


Farmer's Almanac or NOA (?).
As long as it is milder than the last 2 years where I am at - is just fine with me.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Jenny E said:


> I will stock up on specials, but I like the idea of stocking up for hibernation galaxycraft More time for knitting. he he


Wish there was a way to save the heat from the summer and use it later. How do you store heat. LOL


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> Farmer's Almanac or NOA (?).
> As long as it is milder than the last 2 years where I am at - is just fine with me.


Local yokel.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Local yokel.


Ahhhh ----  
I had an uncle who could predict better than NOA. He was right 95% of the time. Had been doing it most of his life - bless his soul.


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## franknitter3 (Nov 28, 2014)

I stock up every summer because of hurricane season. We can be without electricity for 3 weeks or more. It's good to be prepared in all areas of our lives.


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## JoRae (Feb 5, 2013)

WindingRoad said:


> Here in the North East "they" say we are to have a mild winter. Ever wonder who "they" are??? LOL


I know what you mean. "They" say the north west is mild winter too so who knows? I guess THEY. 😀


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## cindye6556 (Apr 6, 2011)

galaxycraft said:


> Oh, I will be stocking up all right --- for my winter hibernation as I do not travel out much at all; and to prepare for those blizzards.


Me either. I treat winter in Colorado as I did summer in Florida....hurricanes or blizzards not much difference other than the temperature. No electricity, roads impossible to drive on, and even if you could nothing in stores.


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## Ask4j (May 21, 2011)

Let's see yarn--check, Needles--check. Patterns--check. I'm set!

This kind of thing reminds me of an Irish joke that was posted here a few months ago....

A priest and a viccar met in the road and agreed to post this sign, "the end is near!" As they were putting it in the ground a car wizzed by and the driver gives them the finger and says "you religious nutters"--then there was tires sqealing followed by a big splash. The viccar says " maybe we should have written 'bridge is out'"!


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## black kitty (Sep 23, 2011)

Dish Cloth Diva said:


> I have been reading quite a few articles about "something big" is supped to happen in America, come September. I have friends that have been stocking up on food, water, powdered milk and all the necessities for several days, including can openers, wood and cash... etc..
> 
> Have any of you done this? You can PM me if you would like...thank you...I haven't yet myself. I do plan on getting a few things...wine, chips, chocolate, yarn, tea..and toilet paper of course... In all seriousness, I am planning on doing a big shopping trip in the next couple of weeks...


I would suggest you do some reading of the financial web sites and decide for your self. I do a lot of that sort of reading because I want to plan carefully since I have very little income and can't afford to make a big financial mistake. I believe the whole world is in a financial mess but I don't insist others see it my way. I keep my pantry well stocked for many reasons. When for some reason hubby and I don't have much income for the month we don't go without because I planned and shopped carefully. I buy food and essentials first. A good food inventory in my pantry is to me the same as having money in the bank. 
We can't eat money but if I stock up on food that we eat and that is on a good sale I have saved an impressive amount of money verses just going to the store and buying what ever at the spur of the moment. I have saved our backsides a few times because I always keep the house full of food no matter what else. No money, no sweat there is food on the shelf and in the freezer.  Also we eat the food - all of it; no picky eaters allowed!


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## KnittyGritty800 (Apr 1, 2014)

WindingRoad said:


> Something big has gonna happen since man could communicate.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

WindingRoad said:


> Here in the North East "they" say we are to have a mild winter. Ever wonder who "they" are??? LOL


Oi! Last year's summer was just like this. Coolish low humidity for the most part. Winter was horrible in upstateNY/northeast last year. Wahhhh! A little bit of stocking up is good.


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## Pocahontas (Apr 15, 2011)

El Nino perhaps?
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-el-nino-20150813-htmlstory.html


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Pocahontas said:


> El Nino perhaps?
> http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-el-nino-20150813-htmlstory.html


I thought of that to...Godzilla El Nino...


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> Ahhhh ----
> I had an uncle who could predict better than NOA. He was right 95% of the time. Had been doing it most of his life - bless his soul.


My ex FIL and my oldest son were/are Water Witches. And my oldest son can just reach down into a patch of clover and pick 4 leaf ones to his heart's content. His dad's sister is the same way.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

black kitty said:


> I would suggest you do some reading of the financial web sites and decide for your self. I do a lot of that sort of reading because I want to plan carefully since I have very little income and can't afford to make a big financial mistake. I believe the whole world is in a financial mess but I don't insist others see it my way. I keep my pantry well stocked for many reasons. When for some reason hubby and I don't have much income for the month we don't go without because I planned and shopped carefully. I buy food and essentials first. A good food inventory in my pantry is to me the same as having money in the bank.
> We can't eat money but if I stock up on food that we eat and that is on a good sale I have saved an impressive amount of money verses just going to the store and buying what ever at the spur of the moment. I have saved our backsides a few times because I always keep the house full of food no matter what else. No money, no sweat there is food on the shelf and in the freezer. Also we eat the food - all of it; no picky eaters allowed!


I've been doing that for about 47 years.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

WindingRoad said:


> My ex FIL and my oldest son were/are Water Witches. And my oldest son can just reach down into a patch of clover and pick 4 leaf ones to his heart's content. His dad's sister is the same way.


I used to look for 4 leaf clovers as a kid. But had to search. I had a scrapbook of them. Fun. Do they make a living finding water? Sounds very interesting.


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## Irish knitter (Mar 29, 2011)

fortunate1 said:


> I thought of that to...Godzilla El Nino...


But the weather person said tonight we are just above the line for the rain........


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> I used to look for 4 leaf clovers as a kid. But had to search. I had a scrapbook of them. Fun. Do they make a living finding water? Sounds very interesting.


Nope just did it for fun. And my ex could make the best whistles out of wood. Can't think of the kind of wood he used.


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## diamondbelle (Sep 10, 2011)

The only thing I've heard about is El Nino, but that's nothing new, because it happens every few years. Even when El Nino is predicted, they can't really determine how much it's going to affect the weather.

Remember that preacher, Harold Camping, who was predicting the Rapture? How many times did he say it was coming? It was supposed to be May 11, 2011 and when nothing happened he claimed it was a "spiritual rapture" and said the "physical rapture" would be in October 11, 2011. Nothing happened then either, and he died in 2013.

Out of curiosity, I googled September 2015, and found this article. It's a hoot. It's about as credible as the Yeti sightings, and anyone can predict a disaster that will happen in the future. If they're right, they're a genius, if they're wrong, they won't admit it. One person can start a rumor on the internet, and cause mass panic, because so many people believe whatever they read on the web.

http://www.infowars.com/what-is-going-to-happen-in-september-2015-why-are-so-many-people-storing-food-and-supplies/

Personally, I'm not going to worry about it. We've been through 9/11, multiple stock market fluctuations, numerous terrorist attacks, the nuclear disaster in Japan, multiple earthquakes, and more, and we're still here. Worrying is a waste of time and energy, because if it's something big, we can't control it anyway.

There have been survivalists since the cold war, and some of them probably still have those canned foods in their bomb shelters.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

diamondbelle said:


> The only thing I've heard about is El Nino, but that's nothing new, because it happens every few years. Even when El Nino is predicted, they can't really determine how much it's going to affect the weather.
> 
> Remember that preacher, Harold Camping, who was predicting the Rapture? How many times did he say it was coming? It was supposed to be May 11, 2011 and when nothing happened he claimed it was a "spiritual rapture" and said the "physical rapture" would be in October 11, 2011. Nothing happened then either, and he died in 2013.
> 
> ...


Yummy maybe we should raid them...OPPS poor choice of words. Hey, at least I admitted it.


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## Jean Large (Nov 29, 2013)

My mother could tell the forecast by the thickness of fur animals started putting on in the fall. She also said to watch how fat the squirrels were and how many nuts they took up to their nest. 
The folks around here and in California just want rain once or twice a week. Did anyone predict moisture?


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Jean Large said:


> My mother could tell the forecast by the thickness of fur animals started putting on in the fall. She also said to watch how fat the squirrels were and how many nuts they took up to their nest.
> The folks around here and in California just want rain once or twice a week. Did anyone predict moisture?


Actually, they ( there they are again) predict floods and landslide. Because it will probably come in very large doses in short periods of time. The ground being so dry it can't absorb it readily.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

If it is an El Nino year, California will have floods and mudslides. Been doing it for centuries according to the soil cores.
It's in the same category as death and taxes - bloody inevitable.


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## cathy47 (Jun 6, 2011)

I am stocking up because winter is coming.. unless we get a hurricane in September. If its the end then so be it. What good is all that stuff if your not here to use it. 

Its all in the Hand of the Lord...


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## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

WindingRoad said:


> Something big has gonna happen since man could communicate.


You are exactly right.


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## bundyanne07 (Aug 24, 2014)

Surely the world's not going to end 'again' or something equally ridiculous.


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## Joan H (Nov 28, 2012)

I stock up in Sept and Oct every year because I don't like to buy big bulky things in Nasty cold weather, It is nice to have enough TP in stock for the winter, I got that from my Grandma. It is great to have enough pasta on the shelf, canned milk (for the recipes that we normally make that use it.) Extra coffee, laundry soap, garbage bags, etc. It is nice for a month or so to nearly be able to coast.


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## clavettek (Oct 22, 2011)

Yes every year we hear the same thing, I all ways stock up on bread, peanut butter, nut butter , jams, soups and the things in my garden. Books and crafts. I will cook with the grill. Fun.


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## paljoey46 (Nov 20, 2011)

Dish Cloth Diva said:


> I have been reading quite a few articles about "something big" is supped to happen in America, come September. I have friends that have been stocking up on food, water, powdered milk and all the necessities for several days, including can openers, wood and cash... etc..
> 
> Have any of you done this? You can PM me if you would like...thank you...I haven't yet myself. I do plan on getting a few things...wine, chips, chocolate, yarn, tea..and toilet paper of course... In all seriousness, I am planning on doing a big shopping trip in the next couple of weeks...


I've been hearing this too. It seems this idea goes around every couple of years or so. If it is an apocalyptic (sp) event, stocking up on food and survival items won't help much unless you can secure them from marauders. The only thing I really stock up on is yarn.


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## Hannelore (Oct 26, 2011)

cakes said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


You said it sister. :thumbup:


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## Jean Keith (Feb 17, 2011)

Been here/there, done this, and then had to toss stuff that had expired.


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## carriemae (Aug 28, 2012)

My 9mm is loaded


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## Hudson (Mar 3, 2011)

Here I would like to store 'cold' and have it to use in this month.


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## nitnurse (May 20, 2012)

Dish Cloth Diva said:


> I have been reading quite a few articles about "something big" is supped to happen in America, come September. I have friends that have been stocking up on food, water, powdered milk and all the necessities for several days, including can openers, wood and cash... etc..
> 
> Have any of you done this? You can PM me if you would like...thank you...I haven't yet myself. I do plan on getting a few things...wine, chips, chocolate, yarn, tea..and toilet paper of course... In all seriousness, I am planning on doing a big shopping trip in the next couple of weeks...


Seriously? Do you believe everything you read? Sounds like scare mongering to me! Remember the Waco nuts?


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## Windbeam (Jul 31, 2011)

If everyone else goes, I am too! Laugh am too old to replenish the world.


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## czechmate (Jun 17, 2011)

I did this once when 2000 was going to roll over,people said the computers will shut down,well it didn't.


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## nitnurse (May 20, 2012)

bundyanne07 said:


> Surely the world's not going to end 'again' or something equally ridiculous.


We are living in an age of fear generated by nut jobs and the media. What is everyone so afraid of? The news would not get any viewers if they were not talking everything up and trying to scare the crap out of everyone. Get a grip everyone!


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## st1tch (Dec 13, 2011)

Take no notice, unless of course you are going to enjoy eating what you've stocked up on &#128077;


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## suzy122 (Jun 3, 2012)

czechmate said:


> I did this once when 2000 was going to roll over,people said the computers will shut down,well it didn't.


It didn't because it was realised that it could cause a problem and addressed it. Only small problems arose but I understand that our hospital had a few glitches.


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## Gladrags (Mar 18, 2012)

WindingRoad said:


> Here in the North East "they" say we are to have a mild winter. Ever wonder who "they" are??? LOL


Yes I do often..."who are they"anybody know.?


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## Rosette (Oct 7, 2011)

So the end of the world is nigh.............again! Why is it that these warnings only appear in America? There has been nothing over here, or have I missed it? I live in the same town as GCHQ so any aliens or terrorists will probably take us out first, so no need to stock pile anything!


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## JoyceinNC (Oct 28, 2011)

galaxycraft said:


> Oh, I will be stocking up all right --- for my winter hibernation as I do not travel out much at all; and to prepare for those blizzards.


The weather is pretty mild where I live, compared to a lot of other places. But it always surprises me how fast the food in stores runs out, or how long the power can be out, or how long the ice on the road takes to melt. It never hurts to have a little extra food on hand for an emergency or unexpected company.

Galaxycraft- my parents lived the last 30 years of their lives in a small town in southern Oregon. Lots of geothermal heat meant the roads in winter were almost always icy. They hibernated too! Wish I could stay home and pretend I wasn't here so I could get more than just house work done!!!


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## smokinneedles (Jun 1, 2012)

Why is Donald Trump gonna win ???????????


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## Nancyn (Mar 23, 2013)

Haha, smokinneedles! I always say that if a major meltdown happens, I don't want to have a slow simmer. I would rather be nuked all at once. So no stocking up for me, I have my own bucket list that I want to accomplish. I figure God wouldn't be too happy to have to listen to me when I got to heaven! Presumably that I get into heaven!


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## owlet (Aug 18, 2013)

WindingRoad said:


> My ex FIL and my oldest son were/are Water Witches. And my oldest son can just reach down into a patch of clover and pick 4 leaf ones to his heart's content. His dad's sister is the same way.


Nothing special about that, anyone can do it because 4-leaf clovers are a completely separate variety! It isn't possible to have 3-leaf & 4-leaf on the same plant. There are also 5-leaf ones which are rarer.


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## CurleyQ (Feb 1, 2011)

There will be another blood moon Sept 28. Someone used NASA statistics and proved that every time the moon lined up like that it was on a Jewish holiday. They went all the way back to bible times! Anyway, it's interesting that these signs in the sky are at celebration times.


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

I'm kind of surprised nobody mentioned Jonathan Cahn's book "The Mystery of the Shemitah".
The Shemitah describes a Jewish practice of resting every seven years. No fieldwork would be done, debts would be forgiven, credit wiped out. The Shemitah lasts a year and ends on Sept 13 this time (Elul 29, I think, in the Jewish calendar).

This might be all nonsense, but when you trace its effects back, you get some very interesting facts.

Seven years ago in Sept 2008, stock market crash and recession. Sept 11, 2001, well we know wht happened that day.
Great Depression, bond market crash of 1994, some cycles are worse than others. The dates often fall exactly on Elul 29, the end of the Shemitah year.

To be on the safe side, I'd get out of the market prior to Sept 13. You can always get back in.

I probably haven't explained this too well. Look up Jonathan Cahn.


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## grammypeg (Nov 29, 2011)

Something BIG is always going to happen. There used to be cartoons with little old men walking around wearing sandwich boards saying "The End is Near". Now we do it on the internet. Phooey! I think the biggest thing for me is that Autumn begins, my favorite season!


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## grandmatimestwo (Mar 30, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Here in the North East "they" say we are to have a mild winter. Ever wonder who "they" are??? LOL


So funny, because I saw a map posted on Facebook that says the north east part of the U.S. will have more than the normal amount of snow! They can predict all they like....the ne always has too much snow for me!


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## jonibee (Nov 3, 2011)

Do you remember "Chicken Little".."The Sky Is Going to Fall"...well..when it's our time to go ...then it's our time. Enjoy life without worrying about what is or what's not going to happen..wasted energy.


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## jonibee (Nov 3, 2011)

grandmatimestwo said:


> So funny, because I saw a map posted on Facebook that says the north east part of the U.S. will have more than the normal amount of snow! They can predict all they like....the ne always has too much snow for me!


Now yesterday they were saying a mild winter temps with alot of rain but not the snow as in the past year. Something about El Ninyo or the other one which is a forerunner of predicting the weather.


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## Tigerwiggy (Apr 24, 2013)

I haven't heard about anything happening in "America" in September, but my son is getting married 9/8 and that is "big."


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## jan m (Jul 5, 2011)

Dish Cloth Diva said:


> I have been reading quite a few articles about "something big" is supped to happen in America, come September. I have friends that have been stocking up on food, water, powdered milk and all the necessities for several days, including can openers, wood and cash... etc..
> 
> Have any of you done this? You can PM me if you would like...thank you...I haven't yet myself. I do plan on getting a few things...wine, chips, chocolate, yarn, tea..and toilet paper of course... In all seriousness, I am planning on doing a big shopping trip in the next couple of weeks...


Rumor started by supermarkets to increase sales?


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## cathy47 (Jun 6, 2011)

Dish Cloth Diva said:


> I have been reading quite a few articles about "something big" is supped to happen in America, come September. I have friends that have been stocking up on food, water, powdered milk and all the necessities for several days, including can openers, wood and cash... etc..
> 
> Have any of you done this? You can PM me if you would like...thank you...I haven't yet myself. I do plan on getting a few things...wine, chips, chocolate, yarn, tea..and toilet paper of course... In all seriousness, I am planning on doing a big shopping trip in the next couple of weeks...


How easy it to say "I been reading" or "I heard". So now put your money where your mouth is.. Name ALL the reads, where and more. Instead of trying to scare the heck out of people like so many have done over the years..usually New Years Eve...in which you are early. Prove what you say. Let others read what you claim. As for your friends I have friends like them that have been declaring this for many many years. So put up or shut up already. And if you cannot prove any of this and what the so called "Something big" is going to happen I will gladly buy you a new jacket for winter with extra long arms.

Sick of this garbage. OH and when I say prove this... Nothing you will type saying it came from. Want links, etc... Want the original print outs not yours.


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## cathy47 (Jun 6, 2011)

grammypeg said:


> Something BIG is always going to happen. There used to be cartoons with little old men walking around wearing sandwich boards saying "The End is Near". Now we do it on the internet. Phooey! I think the biggest thing for me is that Autumn begins, my favorite season!


OH I remember those... go to Calif airport and you can see these people..they just like to spread cheer around.


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## owlet (Aug 18, 2013)

"Something big' is somewhat vague, couldn't it be something really nice?!!!

;-)


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

owlet said:


> "Something big' is somewhat vague, couldn't it be something really nice?!!!
> 
> ;-)


E.T. is coming home! :lol:


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

cathy47 said:


> How easy it to say "I been reading" or "I heard". So now put your money where your mouth is.. Name ALL the reads, where and more. Instead of trying to scare the heck out of people like so many have done over the years..usually New Years Eve...in which you are early. Prove what you say. Let others read what you claim. As for your friends I have friends like them that have been declaring this for many many years. So put up or shut up already. And if you cannot prove any of this and what the so called "Something big" is going to happen I will gladly buy you a new jacket for winter with extra long arms.
> 
> Sick of this garbage. OH and when I say prove this... Nothing you will type saying it came from. Want links, etc... Want the original print outs not yours.


I too am actually waiting for further info --- must have heard/read 'something' to send people to 'prepare'.

Everything under the sun has already been 'predicted' - some many times over - since the dawn of man.


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## norma goodrich (Dec 31, 2013)

Alway I have food and water in case any earthquake Also dry food for my dogs... El Nino is announce with a lot of rain in California...but we are in God's hands and His hands are safe....not scare...what happen will happen and nobody can change it...so don't worry for anything...and be happy....


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## inishowen (May 28, 2011)

As a small child I used to see men wearing sandwich boards with the words "The end of the world is nigh". I was terrified. In fact when we had a very dry summer i was convinced we were going to have an earthquake. I hate to see people being frightened like this.


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## Lostie (May 2, 2013)

czechmate said:


> I did this once when 2000 was going to roll over,people said the computers will shut down,well it didn't.


I've never done any stockpiling or preparation, simply have a "go-bag" of essentials that I can grab and carry should I ever need to make a quick exit from the house. As to the millenium computer problem, I had a friend who made enough money in December 1999 to buy a house outright. He was called in by large companies panicking about their computer systems failing. In spite of his telling them they were OK, he was offered larger and larger amounts of money to "check". So he did, working 18-20 hrs a day for the month, downed tools a minute after midnight, and went back to what he called sensible work.


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## Goalkprsmom (Jun 19, 2015)

Living in America and have not heard this or perhaps I have become immune. The only time I stock up is when a hurricane or big snow is predicted. I don't like to wait until the last minute because panicky people are not on their best behavior.


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## Aunty M (Jul 7, 2014)

A Kardashian wedding, perhaps??


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Aunty Sheryl said:


> A Kardashian wedding, perhaps??


GF .........


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## cathy47 (Jun 6, 2011)

Aunty Sheryl said:


> A Kardashian wedding, perhaps??


what a waist of news that would be.


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## cathy47 (Jun 6, 2011)

inishowen said:


> As a small child I used to see men wearing sandwich boards with the words "The end of the world is nigh". I was terrified. In fact when we had a very dry summer i was convinced we were going to have an earthquake. I hate to see people being frightened like this.


Knew that feeling well. Oh and how bout the one that Calif. was going to fall off the main land.. I think they let these people out of the nut house from over crowding..


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## grandmatimestwo (Mar 30, 2011)

jonibee said:


> Now yesterday they were saying a mild winter temps with alot of rain but not the snow as in the past year. Something about El Ninyo or the other one which is a forerunner of predicting the weather.


Oh I hope so! I hope their prediction is correct! We had so many make up days for school this year!


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## bostonbean2 (Mar 3, 2014)

I stock up every fall for the winter time, not for a doomsday but for weather reasons. Three gallons of water I do not use but keep in case of snow storms. If they weren't needed for an emergency I use them at winter's end.
I buy big, bulky items for the entire winter. I buy lots of non-perishables when on sale and stock pile those. Lots and lots of flour on hand at all times. I try to buy more of what I use lots of in the fall, it is easier to lug up the stairs or when having to deal with the snow.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

WindingRoad said:


> Something big has gonna happen since man could communicate.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: It's a scam....conspiracy theory...apocalypse...you name it. You're reading the wrong stuff. But to each his own.


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## Hudson (Mar 3, 2011)

My mother told me stories about going to religious revival tent meetings with her mother (must have been in the early 1930s). The preacher would emphasis that Jesus-is-coming and Mom thought He would be here before she ate Sunday dinner!!


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## Cardelo (Jul 14, 2014)

WindingRoad said:


> Something big has gonna happen since man could communicate.


You got that right! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Cardelo (Jul 14, 2014)

Gladrags said:


> Yes I do often..."who are they"anybody know.?


I have no idea, but "they" sure cause a lot of problems and grief. Kind of like "I dunno" who also abides in our home now and again. :lol:


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## knittingcanuk (Nov 12, 2012)

I never worry about stuff like this. I just stock up on non perishables here because our winters are brutal and sometimes it's difficult to drive. If something disastrous is going to happen, worrying about it won't help. It's all in God's hands, whatever happens, happens, so no fear here.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

damemary said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: It's a scam....conspiracy theory...apocalypse...you name it. You're reading the wrong stuff. But to each his own.


I'm not reading anything. How about you read for content.


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## Mrsdonha (Feb 21, 2012)

Yes, all the time, I wonder who "THEY" are...


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## Gurney (Feb 17, 2012)

Remember those people who hid in caves a few years back because the world was going to end?


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## PatofWi (Apr 14, 2014)

When you find out what the "something big" is, please let us know what it is.


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## Solliejp (Jun 13, 2014)

El Niño is expected this winter,brings rain to the Western States,hopefully ,but mud slides are also a concern in California.


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## Patty Sutter (Apr 17, 2012)

Dish Cloth Diva said:


> I have been reading quite a few articles about "something big" is supped to happen in America, come September. I have friends that have been stocking up on food, water, powdered milk and all the necessities for several days, including can openers, wood and cash... etc..
> 
> Have any of you done this? You can PM me if you would like...thank you...I haven't yet myself. I do plan on getting a few things...wine, chips, chocolate, yarn, tea..and toilet paper of course... In all seriousness, I am planning on doing a big shopping trip in the next couple of weeks...


Something big in September:
We will have our 40th anniversary. Our son will be 39.
Good stuff.


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## Aunty M (Jul 7, 2014)

WindingRoad said:


> GF .........


I never said my sarcasm was any good.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Aunty Sheryl said:


> I never said my sarcasm was any good.


You didn't have to.....LOL JK... How are you?


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## dauntiekay (Jan 18, 2014)

WindingRoad said:


> Wish there was a way to save the heat from the summer and use it later. How do you store heat. LOL


You don't know how many times I have thought about this!!! I am fairly good at solving a lot of things for myself but this is not one of them! Lol


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## dauntiekay (Jan 18, 2014)

Ask4j said:


> Let's see yarn--check, Needles--check. Patterns--check. I'm set!
> 
> This kind of thing reminds me of an Irish joke that was posted here a few months ago....
> 
> A priest and a viccar met in the road and agreed to post this sign, "the end is near!" As they were putting it in the ground a car wizzed by and the driver gives them the finger and says "you religious nutters"--then there was tires sqealing followed by a big splash. The viccar says " maybe we should have written 'bridge is out'"!


Cute, very cute!


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## Zoe2 (Feb 22, 2015)

Cardelo said:


> I have no idea, but "they" sure cause a lot of problems and grief. Kind of like "I dunno" who also abides in our home now and again. :lol:


"Not me" lives in my home sometimes too


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## dauntiekay (Jan 18, 2014)

fortunate1 said:


> I thought of that to...Godzilla El Nino...


Love your avatar--makes me laugh every time I see!


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## Aunty M (Jul 7, 2014)

WindingRoad said:


> You didn't have to.....LOL JK... How are you?


It kind of speaks for itself, doesn't it.
I'm well, thanks for asking. Hope you are, too.
This topic has reminded me of the cult members who all committed suicide in, I think, 1997, because they believed there was a space ship following behind Halley's Comet, which was going to pick them up and take them somewhere special. How do you pack for a trip like that? :-D


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Aunty Sheryl said:


> It kind of speaks for itself, doesn't it.
> I'm well, thanks for asking. Hope you are, too.
> This topic has reminded me of the cult members who all committed suicide in, I think, 1997, because they believed there was a space ship following behind Halley's Comet, which was going to pick them up and take them somewhere special. How do you pack for a trip like that? :-D


Very carefully.....lol


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## Aunty M (Jul 7, 2014)

WindingRoad said:


> Very carefully.....lol


Now that's funny! You have the gift of a quick mind. :-D


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Aunty Sheryl said:


> Now that's funny! You have the gift of a quick mind. :-D


Lots of practice. I had kids. Boys even.


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## not enough yarn (May 29, 2012)

Every time I go shopping out of town I stock up. The closest big town is a hour one way. The poster who commented on yarn check all set reminded me of my sister a week ago. Her and her husband were at their cabin and power went out. Had a small generator to run the frig.but no TV.she was happy knitting away him miserable without the TV.


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## cathy47 (Jun 6, 2011)

Got it...How could this one slip by without being mentioned.. 
Get ready now... Zombie Apocalypse... Yep that's it.


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## cathy47 (Jun 6, 2011)

Aunty Sheryl said:


> It kind of speaks for itself, doesn't it.
> I'm well, thanks for asking. Hope you are, too.
> This topic has reminded me of the cult members who all committed suicide in, I think, 1997, because they believed there was a space ship following behind Halley's Comet, which was going to pick them up and take them somewhere special. How do you pack for a trip like that? :-D


Don't know how to pack for that trip but don't ever leave home without your very long sleeved jacket.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

cathy47 said:


> Don't know how to pack for that trip but don't ever leave home without your very long sleeved jacket.


And clean undies.


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## denisejh (May 20, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Here in the North East "they" say we are to have a mild winter. Ever wonder who "they" are??? LOL


WindingRoad-That may be due to the predicted El Nino. The scientists who study weather, etc have released the studies that, so far, show a big El Nino condition is in the works. If it continues to grow and come through, we West Coasters are in for a big ugly winter (which we certainly need with this horrible drought!). Typically, an El Nino would mean that for the west coast and a very mild winter for the east coast. So, if the predictions hold true (predictions based on science!), the east coast may get a break this coming winter. Unfortunately, while the west coast badly needs rain, El Nino brings it in the extreme. With all the fires we are having out here and the large amounts El Nino brings, the ground can't soak it up fast enough which means flooding, bad mud slides, and lots of damage. Not great! Then, of course, after El Nino comes La Nina-the little sister, which affectively reverses everything and dries out the west coast and riles up the east coast weather, Can't win for losing! Denise


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## Amyg (Mar 17, 2014)

WindingRoad said:


> Something big has gonna happen since man could communicate.


Not only that, but everything you've ever eaten or are going to eat is bad for you in some way or another!


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## st1tch (Dec 13, 2011)

Rosette said:


> So the end of the world is nigh.............again! Why is it that these warnings only appear in America? There has been nothing over here, or have I missed it? I live in the same town as GCHQ so any aliens or terrorists will probably take us out first, so no need to stock pile anything!


How many times did Old Mother Shipton predict the end is coming?
Oh and Nostradamus, 1 English, 1 Italian 😆


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## Irish knitter (Mar 29, 2011)

nitnurse said:


> Seriously? Do you believe everything you read? Sounds like scare mongering to me! Remember the Waco nuts?


Just want to let you folks know I survived Y2K (laughing about that one)...


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

denisejh said:


> WindingRoad-That may be due to the predicted El Nino. The scientists who study weather, etc have released the studies that, so far, show a big El Nino condition is in the works. If it continues to grow and come through, we West Coasters are in for a big ugly winter (which we certainly need with this horrible drought!). Typically, an El Nino would mean that for the west coast and a very mild winter for the east coast. So, if the predictions hold true (predictions based on science!), the east coast may get a break this coming winter. Unfortunately, while the west coast badly needs rain, El Nino brings it in the extreme. With all the fires we are having out here and the large amounts El Nino brings, the ground can't soak it up fast enough which means flooding, bad mud slides, and lots of damage. Not great! Then, of course, after El Nino comes La Nina-the little sister, which affectively reverses everything and dries out the west coast and riles up the east coast weather, Can't win for losing! Denise


Yeppers that's what I said.


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## wordancer (May 4, 2011)

I'll just dive into my stash, knitting needles in one hand and ______________ in the other hand. (fill in the blank)


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## SANDY I (Oct 18, 2014)

Weather channel just few d DRY cleaning r my area this winter.


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## SherrySherry (Mar 1, 2014)

Something big is going to happen? Back to school, and this daycare grandma is not going to be afraid of that!


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## grammyv (Feb 11, 2011)

smokinneedles said:


> Why is Donald Trump gonna win ???????????


No! Aliens are coming down to capture and reclaim him as one of their own :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Amyg (Mar 17, 2014)

grammyv said:


> No! Aliens are coming down to capture and reclaim him as one of their own :lol: :lol: :lol:


LOL!! 
:lol:


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## headlemk (Feb 16, 2011)

supposedly the American dollar will no longer be the standard for world currency.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

headlemk said:


> supposedly the American dollar will no longer be the standard for world currency.


Do you think we can save the American economy by selling tickets to the comedy show "American Presidential and Congressional Elections 2016"?


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## cathy47 (Jun 6, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> And clean undies.


Oh, yea cause that ride would scare the _____ out a ya


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## cathy47 (Jun 6, 2011)

grammyv said:


> No! Aliens are coming down to capture and reclaim him as one of their own :lol: :lol: :lol:


How much is the ticket..to keep him?


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## cathy47 (Jun 6, 2011)

mojave said:


> Do you think we can save the American economy by selling tickets to the comedy show "American Presidential and Congressional Elections 2016"?


 :lol: :lol: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## cathy47 (Jun 6, 2011)

mojave said:


> Do you think we can save the American economy by selling tickets to the comedy show "American Presidential and Congressional Elections 2016"?


 :lol: :lol: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## cathy47 (Jun 6, 2011)

denisejh said:


> WindingRoad-That may be due to the predicted El Nino. The scientists who study weather, etc have released the studies that, so far, show a big El Nino condition is in the works. If it continues to grow and come through, we West Coasters are in for a big ugly winter (which we certainly need with this horrible drought!). Typically, an El Nino would mean that for the west coast and a very mild winter for the east coast. So, if the predictions hold true (predictions based on science!), the east coast may get a break this coming winter. Unfortunately, while the west coast badly needs rain, El Nino brings it in the extreme. With all the fires we are having out here and the large amounts El Nino brings, the ground can't soak it up fast enough which means flooding, bad mud slides, and lots of damage. Not great! Then, of course, after El Nino comes La Nina-the little sister, which affectively reverses everything and dries out the west coast and riles up the east coast weather, Can't win for losing! Denise


Just when have you known those forecasts be right?


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## Aunty M (Jul 7, 2014)

cathy47 said:


> Oh, yea cause that ride would scare the _____ out a ya


And then there's the weird probings to worry about. That's what people always report after alien abductions. :lol:


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## cathy47 (Jun 6, 2011)

Aunty Sheryl said:


> And then there's the weird probings to worry about. That's what people always report after alien abductions. :lol:


 :lol: :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Aunty Sheryl said:


> And then there's the weird probings to worry about. That's what people always report after alien abductions. :lol:


Weird probings? That was what my "marital life" consisted of.


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## denisejh (May 20, 2011)

cathy47 said:


> Just when have you known those forecasts be right?


Cathy47-The El Niño predictions are usually pretty accurate. The weather scientists watch the warm ocean water patterns (which is what causes El Niño) and satellites are able to track the flows. They've been watching the patterns expand for awhile. It's gotten so big and has been moving so predictably for awhile that they finally released the data yesterday. It could still change but it's becoming pretty much agreed on that this coming winter will be an El Niño year winter. This is one weather pattern where the scientists predictions are pretty accurate and they have quite a long time and useful tools to study with and make good predictions. Denise


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

SQM said:


> Weird probings?


Ah SQM! Did you see my posting on the Shmitah? Page 4.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Moe C said:


> Ah SQM! Did you see my posting on the Shmitah? Page 4.


Indeed I did. But I don't believe in that stuff. Nor on any of these warnings. But they are fun to read.


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## krestiekrew (Aug 24, 2012)

.......not again! Just give it a little thought. 9-11 remembrances are coming up, and election campaigns are getting cranked up to the usual he said, she said, he did, she did frenzy = perfect mix to start more sensationalism. Hopefully we don't have any additional or more than usual stuff happen. There are just certain times of the year this stuff starts.


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## JoyceinNC (Oct 28, 2011)

SQM said:


> Weird probings? That was what my "marital life" consisted of.


too much information for me!!!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

JoyceinNC said:


> too much information for me!!!


Just a joke Joyceeeee.


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## Amyg (Mar 17, 2014)

cathy47 said:


> Just when have you known those forecasts be right?


Everyone just make sure that you have plenty yarn in your stashes!


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## headlemk (Feb 16, 2011)

mojave said:


> Do you think we can save the American economy by selling tickets to the comedy show "American Presidential and Congressional Elections 2016"?


that's an idea.


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## lenexa36 (Dec 9, 2013)

heard of a Godzilla El Neno to hit the west coast with rain, which will affect other parts of the country.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

The Pacific Decadal Oscillation is harder to predict than the El Nino-La Nina Oscillation. The El Nino weather patterns have massive data sets of sea water temperature, salinity, air temperature, current patterns, and other oceanic parameters. Inputting this quantity of high quality data into a computer model renders the model's predictions quite reliable. Remember the El Nino does not affect only North America, the entire southern Pacific is affected. Scientists in Australia, New Zealand, several South American countries, China, Japan and the United States have focused research programs on the El Nino Oscillation.


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

SQM said:


> Indeed I did. But I don't believe in that stuff.


Fair enough. If the stock market crashes Sept 14 (13th is a Sunday), we'll talk some more.


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## grandmatimestwo (Mar 30, 2011)

bostonbean2 said:


> I stock up every fall for the winter time, not for a doomsday but for weather reasons. Three gallons of water I do not use but keep in case of snow storms. If they weren't needed for an emergency I use them at winter's end.
> I buy big, bulky items for the entire winter. I buy lots of non-perishables when on sale and stock pile those. Lots and lots of flour on hand at all times. I try to buy more of what I use lots of in the fall, it is easier to lug up the stairs or when having to deal with the snow.


I do this kind of thing, too, because experience tells me we will have snowstorms and we will lose power. I try to keep,things on hand that I don't need to cook, like tuna and cereal, too. I bake more in the fall and winter, so I keep baking supplies on hand, as well. Nothing like the aroma of something freshly baked while inside watching the snow come down.


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

Someone mentioned Nostradamus. He never predicted the end of the world; however, he accurately described his king's jousting injury and subsequent death, and told of Napoleon and Hitler, by name. He referred to Hitler as Hister. Nostradamus lived in the 1500s.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,...."


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Did you drag Shakespeare into this discussion?



Moe C said:


> Someone mentioned Nostradamus. He never predicted the end of the world; however, he accurately described his king's jousting injury and subsequent death, and told of Napoleon and Hitler, by name. He referred to Hitler as Hister. Nostradamus lived in the 1500s.
> "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,...."


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## gma11331 (Oct 18, 2011)

I just want to be sure I have enough batteries for lighting if we get the storms this winter ala El Nino. We have experienced extensive outages in the past during winter storms (wind and rain). Lord knows we need the rain but with the dry condition for the past years flooding will be expected. Our house flooded in the 82-83 El Nino the first time in our 14 years there. Wasn't in a flood zone.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

WindingRoad said:


> Here in the North East "they" say we are to have a mild winter. Ever wonder who "they" are??? LOL


I heard El Nino is going to be bigger than the one in 1997. "They" (those that follow El Nino's and La Nina's) had said that all indications are pointing to weather changes that will result in a milder winter. The oceans are warmer which will be responsible for the warmer temps. After the last two winters, we deserve a milder one, don'tcha agree?


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## Irish knitter (Mar 29, 2011)

I just want a lot of rain.....and snow! I want some weather action....


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## Marliese (Apr 23, 2015)

black kitty said:


> I would suggest you do some reading of the financial web sites and decide for your self. I do a lot of that sort of reading because I want to plan carefully since I have very little income and can't afford to make a big financial mistake. I believe the whole world is in a financial mess but I don't insist others see it my way. I keep my pantry well stocked for many reasons. When for some reason hubby and I don't have much income for the month we don't go without because I planned and shopped carefully. I buy food and essentials first. A good food inventory in my pantry is to me the same as having money in the bank.
> We can't eat money but if I stock up on food that we eat and that is on a good sale I have saved an impressive amount of money verses just going to the store and buying what ever at the spur of the moment. I have saved our backsides a few times because I always keep the house full of food no matter what else. No money, no sweat there is food on the shelf and in the freezer. Also we eat the food - all of it; no picky eaters allowed!


We're doing the same as you. Whatever happens, we won't go hungry. This isn't really about a weather event, although it helps to be prepared for that too.


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## grammyv (Feb 11, 2011)

I can make do or do without most everything else. I just don't want to run out of toilet paper so I stock up! ;0


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## Irish knitter (Mar 29, 2011)

If something BIG is going to happen.....you guys think I'll find the money to move to Oregon???!!!!

NOW.....THAT IS BIG.......


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## Irish knitter (Mar 29, 2011)

Hudson said:


> My mother told me stories about going to religious revival tent meetings with her mother (must have been in the early 1930s). The preacher would emphasis that Jesus-is-coming and Mom thought He would be here before she ate Sunday dinner!!


I miss those revivals....I remember them in the 60's!!


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## diamondbelle (Sep 10, 2011)

czechmate said:


> I did this once when 2000 was going to roll over,people said the computers will shut down,well it didn't.


I was working in the IT department at my company at that time. They made the whole IT department come to work that weekend - just in case. We all sat around eating pizza and reading magazines. Nothing happened.

I told them it would be a non-event, because all of our company programs had already been reviewed & modified to accept the 4-digit year, and besides, banks and insurance companies had already been using 4-digit years for ages. How else could they calculate 30-year mortgages or payouts for insurance policies?


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## Irish knitter (Mar 29, 2011)

I am totally ashamed of all of you......
No one even mentioned CHOCOLATE as a stock up product!!!!
That would be the first thing to buy on my list.....


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## grammyv (Feb 11, 2011)

Irish knitter said:


> I am totally ashamed of all of you......
> No one even mentioned CHOCOLATE as a stock up product!!!!
> That would be the first thing to buy on my list.....


You're right ~ but just after toilet paper! :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

damemary said:


> Did you drag Shakespeare into this discussion


There was no dragging involved, he came willingly. How better to explain Nostradamus?


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## franknitter3 (Nov 28, 2014)

Black kitty, I do the same thing. During the summer I replenish what we may have used and add to it plus extra water.


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## Hudson (Mar 3, 2011)

What a strange thought pattern this thread has become!


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## momforthree (Nov 10, 2011)

Moe C said:


> Ah SQM! Did you see my posting on the Shmitah? Page 4.


 I am a Bible reader and my Bible says that no one knows when the end will come. Only God knows. All the speculations are just speculations. Martin Luther, the theologian from the 16th-century said:" Live like Christ is coming back today, but plant your apple seeds". This means to be always ready for the end, but be wise about "tomorrow". 
The truth is that "the end" may come for the whole World, or many come for me only...No one lives forever on this Earth.
..............

Moe, did you read "The Harbinger" too? The same author.


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## dauntiekay (Jan 18, 2014)

That's Life--the way I see it, folks, we are all in this together and none of us are going to get out alive!


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## headlemk (Feb 16, 2011)

dauntiekay said:


> That's Life--the way I see it, folks, we are all in this together and none of us are going to get out alive!


 :shock: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## NonzNitZen (May 9, 2015)

You ALL should take this to heart and I mean, really think about it! Look at who is running our once great country? And all the bad, horrible crimes against humans that are happening all over the world. What would you do if you had no more electricity? No more.... could you function? Being prepared is always a good idea!


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## Shdy990 (Mar 10, 2011)

I remembered as a kid being so scared because the world would end in 1960. This kind of talk scares children so much. Only God knows the end and man could not.


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

annacovasa said:


> Moe, did you read "The Harbinger" too? The same author.


No, I haven't read either book, but I've heard the author several times on the radio. He's talked often about the sycamore tree that was destroyed at ground zero and replanted, only to die again. This was one of the harbingers in his book, I believe.


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## Shdy990 (Mar 10, 2011)

I watch a show that says it is common sense to have extra food and water on hand in case of a storm or anything.


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## dauntiekay (Jan 18, 2014)

Irish knitter said:


> I am totally ashamed of all of you......
> No one even mentioned CHOCOLATE as a stock up product!!!!
> That would be the first thing to buy on my list.....


That's because I am already stocked up on chocolate--I buy it faster than I eat it.


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## dauntiekay (Jan 18, 2014)

NonzNitZen said:


> You ALL should take this to heart and I mean, really think about it! Look at who is running our once great country? And all the bad, horrible crimes against humans that are happening all over the world. What would you do if you had no more electricity? No more.... could you function? Being prepared is always a good idea!


I have always liked what my father had instilled in me many years ago, he always said, "we will cross the bridge when we come to it." With anything in life there are those times where we just have to wait until we cross that bridge.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

grammyv said:


> You're right ~ but just after toilet paper! :thumbup: :thumbup:


You are right. That is all I would hoard.


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## JoyceinNC (Oct 28, 2011)

SQM said:


> Just a joke Joyceeeee.


I know - just something I wouldn't have thought of!


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## Shdy990 (Mar 10, 2011)

if I buy chocolate, it haunts me until I eat it


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## DebHow78 (Nov 11, 2014)

WindingRoad said:


> Here in the North East "they" say we are to have a mild winter. Ever wonder who "they" are??? LOL


I saw a map the weather bureau & Almanac posted recently and it was the opposite. Severe winter for the north and on down to where i am in an GA.

I don't stock up. If we should have a crisis, I would survive long without my medications or w/o a/c or heat. I'd rather go to be with Jesus at this point.


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## martha9447 (Oct 26, 2012)

LINKS watch.org (written by a White House correspondent
hallindsey.com
olivetreeministries.org (go to broadcasts 
lamblion.com ( go to Christ on Prophesy series)
BOOKS The Mystery of the Shemitah by Jonathan Cahn
The Blood Moons by Mark Biltz
YOUTUBE Robert Jeffress ( Pastor of First Baptist Dallas)
Jack Hibbs ( Pastor of Calvary Chapel in Chino Hills

BIBLE Ezekiel 36-39 Revelation
Daniel 9 
2 Thess


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## JoyceinNC (Oct 28, 2011)

dauntiekay said:


> That's because I am already stocked up on chocolate--I buy it faster than I eat it.


I'm doing good to buy a week's supply when I do my weekly grocery shopping....sometimes I have a stressful week and run out early. Buying chocolate faster than I can eat it, more than a week's worth any way, is something I'll have to think about!

On a more serious note, all the people I've heard or read about food storage all say that we should not only keep the essentials on hand, but "comfort" foods to get us through stressful times. If the money runs out before the month does, if a huge storm comes through and closes all the stores, if someone is ill and running to the store for a few things is out of the question - extra food, including favorite candy or dessert ingredients, can make all the difference in how we get through a short term emergency. Long term food storage is another matter and deserves a lot of careful planning. I'm just talking about the things that pass in a week or so. So, I don't think it's silly or foolish to have some chocolate stashed away, or whatever it is to keep us on an even keel. Your favorite coffee or tea, cookies, candy, dried fruit, whatever it takes!


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## momforthree (Nov 10, 2011)

Moe C said:


> No, I haven't read either book, but I've heard the author several times on the radio. He's talked often about the sycamore tree that was destroyed at ground zero and replanted, only to die again. This was one of the harbingers in his book, I believe.


Interesting books. The writing itself ( the manner) is not my style , but the information is interesting . If you want you can buy them ( all three: The Harbinger, The Mystery of the Shemitah , and The Mystery of the Shemitah Unlocked ), from Amazon. 
Have a nice day!


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## Friederike (Aug 26, 2011)

I haven't read through all 12 pages of comments so I don't know how often 9/11 (September 11) has been mentioned. Could be that the something big is 9/11 from 14 years ago. And yes, it was a huge, devastating and sad life changing event for all :-(


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## jojoacker62 (Jun 10, 2013)

The Pope is coming to America at the end of September. He will go to meet President Obama, then to New York City then to Philadelphia for a big, big, big event that will have thousands of pilgrims. Folks have estimated more than a million people coming downtown each day.
Here is one link: http://www.worldmeeting2015.org/papal-visit/ I'm sure you can find more links 
The planning for security here in Philly is insane. The Pope will do an outdoor mass on our parkway. Many streets will be closed including major highways and the Ben Franklin bridge to New Jersey. My dentist is closing also the community art school I attend, the Philadelphia School District for four days and I suspect many other places because staffs will not be able to get into town because so many pilgrims staying in the suburbs will be coming into town each day. 
One of my friends also long retired is going to visit her sister for the week. I will have food in the house; new knitting; books to read; and I may even lay in some beer. We'll see. Be glad you don't live in Center City Philadelphia.


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## mattie cat (Jun 5, 2013)

I haven't read all 12 pages so maybe I shouldn't even comment but I have been hearing scare stories regarding September and the 4 blood moons. God has not given us the Spirit of Fear but there are many others (even some Christians) that are trying to make us afraid.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

NonzNitZen said:


> You ALL should take this to heart and I mean, really think about it! Look at who is running our once great country? And all the bad, horrible crimes against humans that are happening all over the world. What would you do if you had no more electricity? No more.... could you function? Being prepared is always a good idea!


I have a hand crank can opener.. I'm all set.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

mattie cat said:


> I haven't read all 12 pages so maybe I shouldn't even comment but I have been hearing scare stories regarding September and the 4 blood moons. God has not given us the Spirit of Fear but there are many others (even some Christians) that are trying to make us afraid.


Blood moons?? Good Grief!! And shades of absolutely medieval superstition!!
There is nothing sinister or malevolent about such a moon. The color is entirely due to the way light frequencies are transmitted by Earth's atmosphere. Plus the moon is that color only for a little while. As soon as it moves higher in the arc, the normal blue white color returns. Again, due to light transmission through the atmosphere.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

mojave said:


> Blood moons?? Good Grief!! And shades of absolutely medieval superstition!!
> There is nothing sinister or malevolent about such a moon. The color is entirely due to the way light frequencies are transmitted by Earth's atmosphere.


Some people gotta have their illusions. Best maybe to just let them..LOL


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## denisejh (May 20, 2011)

Irish knitter said:


> I am totally ashamed of all of you......
> No one even mentioned CHOCOLATE as a stock up product!!!!
> That would be the first thing to buy on my list.....


Irish knitter-No shame here! I'm always OVERSTOCKED on chocolate. Rain, parched earth, storms-whatever. I always have the stuff on hand-24/7!!!!!!!!!! Denise


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

mojave said:


> Blood moons?? Good Grief!! And shades of absolutely medieval superstition!!
> There is nothing sinister or malevolent about such a moon. The color is entirely due to the way light frequencies are transmitted by Earth's atmosphere. Plus the moon is that color only for a little while. As soon as it moves higher in the arc, the normal blue white color returns. Again, due to light transmission through the atmosphere.


Thankfully a breath of science and good sense.


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## jojoacker62 (Jun 10, 2013)

LOL. Me, too. I can always open canned goods.


WindingRoad said:


> I have a hand crank can opener.. I'm all set.


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## jojoacker62 (Jun 10, 2013)

Full Moon Names and Their Meanings - Farmers' Almanac
farmersalmanac.com/full-moon-names/
There was some variation in the Moon names, but in general, the same ones were ... Full Corn Moon or Full Harvest Moon  September This full moon's name is ... is often referred to as the Full Hunter's Moon, Blood Moon, or Sanguine Moon.


mojave said:


> Blood moons?? Good Grief!! And shades of absolutely medieval superstition!!
> There is nothing sinister or malevolent about such a moon. The color is entirely due to the way light frequencies are transmitted by Earth's atmosphere. Plus the moon is that color only for a little while. As soon as it moves higher in the arc, the normal blue white color returns. Again, due to light transmission through the atmosphere.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

jojoacker62 said:


> LOL. Me, too. I can always open canned goods.


Besides I'm slowly converting over to the pull tab one's . NO worries.


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## jojoacker62 (Jun 10, 2013)

Another Link, I love science !!!
What is a Blood Moon? | Human World | EarthSky
earthsky.org/space/what-is-a-blood-moon-lunar-eclipses-2014-2015
It is the the full moon immediately following the Harvest Moon, which is the full moon occurring most closely to the autumnal equinox. The Hunter's Moon, in skylore, is also sometimes called the Blood Moon.
&#8206;Why does the moon look red ... - &#8206;April 4, 2015 total eclipse of ...


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## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Something big has gonna happen since man could communicate.


right!?!

I have not heard of anything, and my brother is a serious reactionary. Of course, I avoid my brother so...

Seriously, I live in So Cal, so we always keep a couple of cases of water and dry goods and emergency (earthquake) kits stocked.


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## ScottsMom (Jul 5, 2015)

I read somewhere years ago that the person responsible for "they" was a man named Andew Smith. Not sure if this is true or not but it puts a name to the notion of "and they said". We have had many a laugh about this over the years.


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## ScottsMom (Jul 5, 2015)

With respect to stocking up for this future calamity to come, these scares have been happening fotever and we are still here enjoying our planet and all it has to offer. Live for the day, seize the moment.(My son's tat on his forearm.)


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## ScottsMom (Jul 5, 2015)

With respect to stocking up for this future calamity to come, these scares have been happening fotever and we are still here enjoying our planet and all it has to offer. Live for the day, seize the moment.(My son's tat on his forearm.)


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## ScottsMom (Jul 5, 2015)

Double post stop that fingers!!!!!


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## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

grammyv said:


> No! Aliens are coming down to capture and reclaim him as one of their own :lol: :lol: :lol:


ROFLMAO!!


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## JoanDL (Aug 26, 2013)

I agree with franknitter3. Imagine going to the grocery store and finding ALL the shelves empty and staying that for 3 weeks! I always keep plenty of staples on hand. Hurricanes can be devastating as well long power outages. Even if you have a well, you still power to get pump running.


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## CarolfromTX (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm quaking in my boots. NOT. I'd need a few more specifics before I start hoarding toilet paper.


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## gma11331 (Oct 18, 2011)

Irish knitter said:


> I miss those revivals....I remember them in the 60's!!


My grandfather always told the story about when he was a young man the traveling evangelist was preaching a "fire and brimstone" sermon and how if you were "godly" you need not be afraid. After the sermon and everyone was outside there was an aurora borealis lighting up the sky and the preacher totally freaked out and started crying and threw himself on the ground!! He kinda lost credibility with his audience.......


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## 9sueseiber (Oct 29, 2011)

My GS stocked up for the last big prediction of the world ending. By the time it got here the food wasn't much good. He got it from the food they give to low income people. What's that say for what they give them. And yes he was low income at the time. The canned food was all out dated and some of the cans were leaking. They probably would have poisoned themselves, if something had happened, trying to eat any of that stuff.
Sue


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## Artbarn (Aug 1, 2014)

diamondbelle said:


> I was working in the IT department at my company at that time. They made the whole IT department come to work that weekend - just in case. We all sat around eating pizza and reading magazines. Nothing happened.
> 
> I told them it would be a non-event, because all of our company programs had already been reviewed & modified to accept the 4-digit year, and besides, banks and insurance companies had already been using 4-digit years for ages. How else could they calculate 30-year mortgages or payouts for insurance policies?


In 1999 I was working for a placement agency in Boston that specialized in computer programmers. Y2K was a huge worry for the banking industry, at least in Boston, at that time. We were recruiting programmers from overseas, especially India, because most of the programmers in the US no longer knew the necessary computer language(s) that the banking codes had been written in. Nobody I knew, including the programmers, were confident that they had found and fixed all the vulnerabilities.

I made sure that my family and I had plenty of cash and enough basic food to get through a few days, just in case there were problems. We all breathed a sigh of relief when there were none.

Currently, I live in the mountains, where we have already been trapped for 2 weeks after all the roads to our town washed out 3 summers ago. We were without power for almost a week. I now make sure to have plenty of food and water stored up in case we ever have another disaster.

That said, I don't pay attention to vague threats of "something big" happening.


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## Artbarn (Aug 1, 2014)

Irish knitter said:


> I am totally ashamed of all of you......
> No one even mentioned CHOCOLATE as a stock up product!!!!
> That would be the first thing to buy on my list.....


Haha! I agree, Irish Knitter.


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## budasha (Aug 10, 2011)

Jenny E said:


> If every time people stocked up when something big was going to happen, they would not need to go to the supermarket for years !
> 
> If something big is going to happen, I wouldn't want to survive to live in a world that was not as I know it now.
> 
> People are playing with your mind. Don't give them the pleasure of knowing they have succeeded in frightening you.


You think this might be a Supermarket ploy?


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Artbarn said:


> In 1999 I was working for a placement agency in Boston that specialized in computer programmers. Y2K was a huge worry for the banking industry, at least in Boston, at that time. We were recruiting programmers from overseas, especially India, because most of the programmers in the US no longer knew the necessary computer language(s) that the banking codes had been written in. Nobody I knew, including the programmers, were confident that they had found and fixed all the vulnerabilities.
> 
> I made sure that my family and I had plenty of cash and enough basic food to get through a few days, just in case there were problems. We all breathed a sigh of relief when there were none.
> 
> ...


Ya know I'll be really PO'd if it turns out to be something small.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

dauntiekay said:


> Love your avatar--makes me laugh every time I see!


Thanks....me too..😂


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## nellie47 (Nov 27, 2011)

On the nightly news this week they reported that a "Godzilla" of El Nino is suppose to hit the west coast somewhere. It supposedly is forming in the Pacific


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

suzy122 said:


> It didn't because it was realised that it could cause a problem and addressed it. Only small problems arose but I understand that our hospital had a few glitches.


The reason so few problems occurred in 2000 was the weeks and weeks of reprogramming done by company programmers of their systems. I worked for one of those companies, and believe me management and programming departments were truly nervous.


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> I heard El Nino is going to be bigger than the one in 1997. "They" (those that follow El Nino's and La Nina's) had said that all indications are pointing to weather changes that will result in a milder winter. The oceans are warmer which will be responsible for the warmer temps. After the last two winters, we deserve a milder one, don'tcha agree?


Nor sure if it will be bigger, but the predictions are pointing in that direction. My favorite weather blog discusses this in depth. Interesting reading.

http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2015/06/a-strong-el-nino-develops-what-does.html


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## denisejh (May 20, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> The reason so few problems occurred in 2000 was the weeks and weeks of reprogramming done by company programmers of their systems. I worked for one of those companies, and believe me management and programming departments were truly nervous.


Knit crazy-Oh Lord, do I remember that!! I worked for the local phone company in the digital data department at that time. Wasn't sure we were going to survive that stressful time. Denise


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## Artbarn (Aug 1, 2014)

Knit crazy said:


> The reason so few problems occurred in 2000 was the weeks and weeks of reprogramming done by company programmers of their systems. I worked for one of those companies, and believe me management and programming departments were truly nervous.


Exactly.


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## 9sueseiber (Oct 29, 2011)

Maybe this is due to the American dollar losing value. "The're" telling people to invest in gold, and get rid of paper money. Yeah, right I'm gona take a chunk of gold to the super market I wonder what they would give back for change? Little rocks? LOL I know the dollar is losing, but I don't see us going back to a hundred years or more and go Gold Panning.
Sue


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

9sueseiber said:


> Maybe this is due to the American dollar losing value. "The're" telling people to invest in gold, and get rid of paper money. Yeah, right I'm gona take a chunk of gold to the super market I wonder what they would give back for change? Little rocks? LOL I know the dollar is losing, but I don't see us going back to a hundred years or more and go Gold Panning.
> Sue


Actually, the dollar is very strong right now. Against most other currencies.

Here's an interesting tidbit. Notice the date.

http://usawatchdog.com/dollar-collapse-starts-in-late-2014-charles-nenner/

Seems we missed that one too.


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## Lillysmom (Aug 9, 2011)

There is always somebody predicting gloom and doom. Remember 1/1/2000? We're still here, aren't we?


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Actually, the dollar is very strong right now. Against most other currencies.
> 
> Here's an interesting tidbit. Notice the date.
> 
> ...


Not necessarily a good thing though:

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/dollar-joins-currency-wars-by-nouriel-roubini-2015-05


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

galaxycraft said:


> E.T. is coming home! :lol:


LoL LoL.


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## Rosewood11 (Jan 25, 2011)

Yes, I've heard about this, and we have taken measures for our own protection, and to provide for our nutritional needs and those of others around us. 

There are several reasons why we believe this is coming. All of them have to do with America turning it's back on God, and becoming increasingly immoral in its actions. I also learned today that it has been reported in the Israeli press that obama/kerry have secretly agreed to defend Iran against Israel. I truly believe that turning our back on Israel is the most humongous mistake this country will ever make. 

Before anyone gets the idea that this is just stuff coming out of fundamentalist churches, I invite you to look at any one of several investment brokers who are telling people to put their money in gold and silver that they store in their own home, and get out of the stock market because they expect a crash in September or October. You'll also hear similar sentiments and worse expressed by several different paranormal practitioners and New Age gurus on Coast to Coast AM with George Noory almost any night you tune in. Coast to Coast is the biggest over-night talk show on the air with more than 600 affiliates worldwide, and the guests have impeccable credentials from major universities. 

I would once again urge people to look into food that offers long-term storage. We get ours through jimbakkershow.com. We've had dealings with Jim Bakker for many years, and trust him as a preacher and a businessman (and we've had business dealings with him). If you prefer not to use his site, there are several other sites offering survival food and water filtration supplies all over the web.

Even if we make it through September and October without calamity, the federal government encourages the general public to have 3 weeks worth of food and medication on hand because FEMA may not be able to get to you immediately in case of a tornado, flood or earthquake. It could happen to any of us at any time, and it's always wise to be prepared.


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## 133163 (May 11, 2015)

I have heard it said that some 'forecasters' can't get yesterday's weather right. Seriously, it's always a good idea to have some things set aside in case of power failures or such as that. Outside of that, I don't think we should listen to the 'they' of the world. They have their fifteen minutes of fame til the next 'they' comes along. Live every day to the fullest and give God the glory.


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## pengee (Jul 24, 2011)

The "something big" being referred to is most likely the Pope's visit to America, to address Congress and some United Nations group. Those of us who study Bible Prophecy see a lot of significance in this and those of us who don't call us a collection of very rude and insulting names. I am not going to elaborate on this as I do not intend to open a can of very nasty worms on this site; it is not for that, it is to share about our knitting. Anyone who is interested can look at many sites belonging to the Seventh-day Adventist Church to get more information - White Horse Ministries, Amazing Facts, Amazing Discoveries and many more. It is up to personal choice if you want to learn about this or not.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

I haven't read entirely through this topic, but the panic is not weather related or financial alone. If you believe in God and the Bible, you may have read Revelations. The worry is God's prediction that the world will end, Jesus Christ will return to rescue believers, and He will establish His Kingdom on earth. Those who don't believe will be caught unaware and suffer greatly before death and being resigned to Hell. The facts of Jesus' coming are aligning with the evil and corruption of the world, especially America.

God's time as described in Jonathan Cahn's book, the Harbinger, is factored in 7's and mentioned frequently in the Jewish and Christian Bible. Shemitah years are God's seven year cycles which are linked to economic activity, for God commands that in the seventh year all debts are to be forgiven. Shemitah years are God's seven year cycles which are linked to economic activity, for God commands that in the seventh year all debts are to be forgiven. More on the Shemitah is detailed here;

http://www1.cbn.com/700club/jonathan-cahn-unlocks-thousands-years-mystery

Regarding the importance of Blood Moons, you can read here:

http://www.shemitah-blood-moons.net/events.html

Another poster reported the coincidental (?) events occurring in recent American history:

On September 29, 2008 (which was also Elul 29 on the Biblical calendar), the Dow plummeted 777 points, which still today remains the greatest one day stock market crash of all time in the United States.

Now we are in another Shemitah year. It began in the fall of 2014, and it ends on September 13, 2015. But we are not likely to see a stock market crash in the United States on September 13th, 2015, because that day is a Sunday. As author Jonathan Cahn has pointed out in his book on the Shemitah, we have witnessed major stock market crashes happen just before the end of the Shemitah year and we have also witnessed major stock market crashes happen within just a few weeks after the end of the Shemitah year. So we are not necessarily looking at one particular date.

This time around, a whole bunch of critical events just happen to fall in the period of time immediately following the end of the Shemitah year.

The following are 10 things that are going to happen within 15 days of the end of the Shemitah:

September 14th  Rosh Hashanah

September 15th  The Jade Helm military exercises are scheduled to end.

September 15th  The 70th session of the UN General Assembly begins on this date. It has been widely reported that France plans to introduce a resolution which will give formal UN Security Council recognition to a Palestinian state shortly after the new session begins. Up until now, the U.S. has always been the one blocking such a resolution, but Barack Obama has already indicated that things may be different this time around. Alarm bells are going off in many heads at how significant this event could potentially be.

September 20th to September 26th  The World Week For Peace in Palestine Israel sponsored by the World Council of Churches.

September 21st  The UN International Day Of Peace. Could this be the day when the UN Security Council resolution establishing a Palestinian state is actually adopted?

September 23rd  Yom Kippur

September 23rd  Pope Francis arrives at the White House to meet with Barack Obama. Some have suggested that the timing of this event is highly unusual

Francis is the 266th pope who will be meeting with President Obama on the 266th day of the year, leading one Internet preacher to wonder if something is being birthed on that day, since 266 days is the typical human gestation period from conception to birth.

September 24th  The Pope addresses a joint session of the U.S. Congress.

September 25th to September 27th  The United Nations is going to launch a brand new sustainable development agenda called The 2030 Agenda,nat a major conference that will be held from September 25th to September 27th in New York City. The Pope is actually traveling to New York to deliver an address which will kick off this conference. Unlike Agenda 21, which primarily focused on the environment, the 2030 Agenda is truly a template for governing the entire planet. In addition to addressing climate change, it also sets ambitious goals for areas such as economics, health, energy, education, agriculture, gender equality and a whole host of other issues. This global initiative is being billed as a new universal Agenda for humanity. If you know Revelations, a "One-World Government" initiative precedes the End of Days.

September 28th  This is the date when the Feast of Tabernacles begins. It is also the date for the last of the four blood moons that fall on Biblical festival dates during 2014 and 2015. This blood moon falls on the very first day of the Feast of Tabernacles, it will be a supermoon, and it will be clearly visible from the city of Jerusalem. There are many that dismiss the blood moon phenomenon, but we have seen similar patterns before. For example, a similar pattern of eclipses happened just before and just after the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans in 70 AD.

Jonathan Cahn has expressed his belief that a great shaking is coming to America and the world. Cahn is both a Jewish Rabbi and a Christian. Revelations predicted there woe be many News for Jesus in the end days.

My opinion is that these events are not coincidental, but no one knows when the world will end besides God. I believe in preparing for bad times, but I pray any preparation will be unnecessary and I will be taken early. No one can store enough food to last forever, cash will be useless (it could be eliminated this September by the One World government plan, and as some stated gold is not able to be converted to goods as easily today as it was by some escaping Hitler. Guns will be useful, but mob violence cannot be resisted by one or two people. The end times will be tough to bear. I caution everyone not to tell others that you have stored food and water. It is not a safe thing to do.


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## Heartseas (Aug 30, 2011)

I hope & pray it will be something nice.


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## Rosewood11 (Jan 25, 2011)

Ask4j wrote:
Let's see yarn--check, Needles--check. Patterns--check. I'm set!

This kind of thing reminds me of an Irish joke that was posted here a few months ago....

A priest and a viccar met in the road and agreed to post this sign, "the end is near!" As they were putting it in the ground a car wizzed by and the driver gives them the finger and says "you religious nutters"--then there was tires sqealing followed by a big splash. The viccar says " maybe we should have written 'bridge is out'"!



dauntiekay said:


> Cute, very cute!


Oh!!! I stocked up on that, too. Got lots of yarn for making nice warm blankets, etc. It'll be useful when obama shuts down all the coal-fired power plants, and we have no electric to run the furnaces.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I remember Y2K too well too.



denisejh said:


> Knit crazy-Oh Lord, do I remember that!! I worked for the local phone company in the digital data department at that time. Wasn't sure we were going to survive that stressful time. Denise


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

9sueseiber said:


> Maybe this is due to the American dollar losing value. "The're" telling people to invest in gold, and get rid of paper money. Yeah, right I'm gona take a chunk of gold to the super market I wonder what they would give back for change? Little rocks? LOL I know the dollar is losing, but I don't see us going back to a hundred years or more and go Gold Panning.
> Sue


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

.



Rosewood11 said:


> Yes, I've heard about this, and we have taken measures for our own protection, and to provide for our nutritional needs and those of others around us.
> 
> There are several reasons why we believe this is coming. All of them have to do with America turning it's back on God, and becoming increasingly immoral in its actions. I also learned today that it has been reported in the Israeli press that obama/kerry have secretly agreed to defend Iran against Israel. I truly believe that turning our back on Israel is the most humongous mistake this country will ever make.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

..



pengee said:


> The "something big" being referred to is most likely the Pope's visit to America, to address Congress and some United Nations group. Those of us who study Bible Prophecy see a lot of significance in this and those of us who don't call us a collection of very rude and insulting names. I am not going to elaborate on this as I do not intend to open a can of very nasty worms on this site; it is not for that, it is to share about our knitting. Anyone who is interested can look at many sites belonging to the Seventh-day Adventist Church to get more information - White Horse Ministries, Amazing Facts, Amazing Discoveries and many more. It is up to personal choice if you want to learn about this or not.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

...



Knit crazy said:


> I haven't read entirely through this topic, but the panic is not weather related or financial alone. If you believe in God and the Bible, you may have read Revelations. The worry is God's prediction that the world will end, Jesus Christ will return to rescue believers, and He will establish His Kingdom on earth. Those who don't believe will be caught unaware and suffer greatly before death and being resigned to Hell. The facts of Jesus' coming are aligning with the evil and corruption of the world, especially America.
> 
> God's time as described in Jonathan Cahn's book, the Harbinger, is factored in 7's and mentioned frequently in the Jewish and Christian Bible. Shemitah years are God's seven year cycles which are linked to economic activity, for God commands that in the seventh year all debts are to be forgiven. Shemitah years are God's seven year cycles which are linked to economic activity, for God commands that in the seventh year all debts are to be forgiven. More on the Shemitah is detailed here;
> 
> ...


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## missylam (Aug 27, 2011)

God has said that only he knows when the last day is, so I just don't worry about things and leave it in his hands. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Rosewood11 (Jan 25, 2011)

annacovasa said:


> I am a Bible reader and my Bible says that no one knows when the end will come. Only God knows. All the speculations are just speculations. Martin Luther, the theologian from the 16th-century said:" Live like Christ is coming back today, but plant your apple seeds". This means to be always ready for the end, but be wise about "tomorrow".
> The truth is that "the end" may come for the whole World, or many come for me only...No one lives forever on this Earth.
> ..............
> 
> Moe, did you read "The Harbinger" too? The same author.


I agree that the Bible says "no man knows the day or the hour" of the Lord's return. There's also another favorite line of Bible critics: "The Bible is not a science book." My response to the latter is that, while it may be true that the Bible wasn't written as a book of science, when it makes a scientific statement, you can go to the bank with it.

The day/hour statement is one of these scientifically true statements. There are 26 time zones (two 30 minutes different) and at least 2 days in existence on earth at any given time. For example, when did the Kathmandu earthquake happen--at their local time or when I learned of it in the Eastern Time Zone. Given that difficulty with being precise, it's not hard to understand how no one can predict the exact day or time of Christ's return.

Oh, and here's one for Nostradamus. Supposedly he said there would be three Antichrists. Napoleon was one. Hitler was one. I discounted that until recently when a great Bible teacher by the name of Dr. Chuck Missler (look him up) said that he believes the Antichrist is alive today--and that he was alive in the early 1800s and the 1930s & 40s. His reasoning was that if the Father is the only one who knows exactly when Christ will return, and even Christ Himself is not aware of the day/hour, then it's a cinch no one has told satan. That means he has to have someone fully capable of being the Antichrist in every generation in order to be ready to reveal him at the end of the age. So maybe Nostradamus was right!!! Who can argue with Hitler being an excellent candidate for the (...ahem) "honor(?)"


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Rosewood11 said:


> I agree that the Bible says "no man knows the day or the hour" of the Lord's return. There's also another favorite line of Bible critics: "The Bible is not a science book." My response to the latter is that, while it may be true that the Bible wasn't written as a book of science, when it makes a scientific statement, you can go to the bank with it.
> 
> The day/hour statement is one of these scientifically true statements. There are 26 time zones (two 30 minutes different) and at least 2 days in existence on earth at any given time. For example, when did the Kathmandu earthquake happen--at their local time or when I learned of it in the Eastern Time Zone. Given that difficulty with being precise, it's not hard to understand how no one can predict the exact day or time of Christ's return.
> 
> Oh, and here's one for Nostradamus. Supposedly he said there would be three Antichrists. Napoleon was one. Hitler was one. I discounted that until recently when a great Bible teacher by the name of Dr. Chuck Missler (look him up) said that he believes the Antichrist is alive today--and that he was alive in the early 1800s and the 1930s & 40s. His reasoning was that if the Father is the only one who knows exactly when Christ will return, and even Christ Himself is not aware of the day/hour, then it's a cinch no one has told satan. That means he has to have someone fully capable of being the Antichrist in every generation in order to be ready to reveal him at the end of the age. So maybe Nostradamus was right!!! Who can argue with Hitler being an excellent candidate for the (...ahem) "honor(?)"


John 1:2

Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.


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## Shdy990 (Mar 10, 2011)

they are some kind of eclipse that blocks the sunlight and makes the moon appear red - there are a couple every year, but this year there are four and that only happens very rare and, according to prophesy, brings in a big event. These are my words trying to explain something I don't know a whole lot about. This is why they are saying something in September.


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

I'll just shoot a deer and some turkeys.


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## Shdy990 (Mar 10, 2011)

People ought to have their lives in order and know the Anti Christ comes first and don't let him fool you. If you can pinch yourself and feel it, it is the Anti Christ and not Christ.


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## Shdy990 (Mar 10, 2011)

unfortunately I sound like a nut job lol


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

Shdy990 said:


> unfortunately I sound like a nut job lol


You're cracking me up !


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## NYBev (Aug 23, 2011)

Not going to even think about it. No one knows when the end will be except God himself. When my time comes, so be it.


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## dogpine (Jun 30, 2014)

So I listened in stunned silence to a woman tell me a long and convoluted story, with an earnest straight face, about the upcoming "disaster" in September, a story that involved Obama, the Pope, Chinese soldiers, empty Walmarts connected via secret tunnels and the AntiChrist.... I responded with the only nut job sentence I could think of, "Paul is dead." (Now I hope some other nut job doesn't take me seriously). What??? I have better things to do, such as makin' a living and building up my yarn stash.


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## Judy M (Feb 17, 2011)

Several times a week I hear a message on the radio to stock -- toothbrush, toothpaste, blanket, water - ways to heat it, clean it, store it - matches, flashlight, (bandaids, first aid kit), etc. 

Matches only light once, batteries wear out, water goes in and must come out some where.

Hmmm, wonder if you can get prescription medicines in quantities greater than 3 months or 90 pills, tablets, capsules. 

Oh, yeah, then there's something about baking soda.


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## Shdy990 (Mar 10, 2011)

if our life is in order, there is nothing left but enjoyment


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## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

Rosewood11 said:


> I agree that the Bible says "no man knows the day or the hour" of the Lord's return. There's also another favorite line of Bible critics: "The Bible is not a science book." My response to the latter is that, while it may be true that the Bible wasn't written as a book of science, when it makes a scientific statement, you can go to the bank with it.
> 
> The day/hour statement is one of these scientifically true statements. There are 26 time zones (two 30 minutes different) and at least 2 days in existence on earth at any given time. For example, when did the Kathmandu earthquake happen--at their local time or when I learned of it in the Eastern Time Zone. Given that difficulty with being precise, it's not hard to understand how no one can predict the exact day or time of Christ's return.
> 
> Oh, and here's one for Nostradamus. Supposedly he said there would be three Antichrists. Napoleon was one. Hitler was one. I discounted that until recently when a great Bible teacher by the name of Dr. Chuck Missler (look him up) said that he believes the Antichrist is alive today--and that he was alive in the early 1800s and the 1930s & 40s. His reasoning was that if the Father is the only one who knows exactly when Christ will return, and even Christ Himself is not aware of the day/hour, then it's a cinch no one has told satan. That means he has to have someone fully capable of being the Antichrist in every generation in order to be ready to reveal him at the end of the age. So maybe Nostradamus was right!!! Who can argue with Hitler being an excellent candidate for the (...ahem) "honor(?)"


I'm not disputing you, exactly, but I find it kind of odd that this is 2015, and the _first_ antichrist wasn't around until the 1800s?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> I'm not disputing you, exactly, but I find it kind of odd that this is 2015, and the _first_ antichrist wasn't around until the 1800s?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## raedean (Apr 25, 2011)

my sister told me an asteroid is suppose to hit the earth.thats what the next thing is.
i stocked up for Y2K and even went to classes.
i had 5 gallon barrels of rice,soybeans,lentils for year after and i had bottles of stored water for 10 yrs after.


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## NYBev (Aug 23, 2011)

annacovasa said:


> Interesting books. The writing itself ( the manner) is not my style , but the information is interesting . If you want you can buy them ( all three: The Harbinger, The Mystery of the Shemitah , and The Mystery of the Shemitah Unlocked ), from Amazon.
> Have a nice day!


Have read all 3 of Jonathan Cahn's books and was fascinated by them. However, that doesn't mean I believe everything I read or hear - and that includes the newspapers and tv. No panicking here. Is that bec I am now older and have seen and heard so much? I also am Christian and very confident in my beliefs.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Amyg said:


> Not only that, but everything you've ever eaten or are going to eat is bad for you in some way or another!


Except kale, but who can stand that stuff?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That would cure me.



raedean said:


> my sister told me an asteroid is suppose to hit the earth.thats what the next thing is.
> i stocked up for Y2K and even went to classes.
> i had 5 gallon barrels of rice,soybeans,lentils for year after and i had bottles of stored water for 10 yrs after.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Kale's Day of Atonement is coming.



DGreen said:


> Except kale, but who can stand that stuff?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I've been reading this for a couple of days and it saddens me how dependent we've become. So many think that either nothing bad could happen or that they're ready to die and go to heaven. The problem is that, nothing is ever so simple.

Have you learned nothing from Katrina? The government will not be there for you!!! The government rounded up the people and forced them to stay in the stadium, where people were starving and thirsty. Women were raped! People were dying! And yet, they were held like prisoners! Those who were not in in flooded areas, tried to stay home to protect their families and property, but the government went door to door confiscating their guns, so that they had no protection! All of that resulted from just one hurricane! Imagine if it were something bigger.

We are all, one major disaster away from starvation. Our grocery stores carry enough food for three days. They rely upon on time deliveries, to feed the people. If a disaster happens, the stores will be empty within hours. Long term power outages would mean that water couldn't be pumped into our homes. The list of things that "could" happen is a mile long. It's foolish to dwell upon just one, but prudent to prepare for any of them. If a disaster took place, you aren't going to just die immediately (unless you were killed in a war). First, you'll starve to death, slowly. You'll watch your children starve. You'll hear your grandchildren cry out for food and water. You'll watch them die, before you do. Gangs will sweep through cities, raping and murdering, and taking slaves. The police will be too busy to help, or they'll be home taking care of their own families. All of these things will happen because no one thinks that they have a responsibility to take care of themselves and their loved ones. Everyone thinks that the government will do it. We've become helpless!

This is for the Christians. The Bible admonishes us to be prepared. In Genesis 6:21, GOD told Noah to gather food for his family and all of the animals. HE warned Noah to prepare. In Genesis 41, HE told Joseph that there would be 7 years of plenty, then 7 years of famine. HE admonished them to save food, during the years of plenty. Proverbs tells the story of the ants, who work hard all summer, to provide food for the winter. In Proverbs 21:20 it says, "The wise store up choice food and olive oil, but fools gulp theirs down". 1 Timothy 5:8 says, "If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever". Proverbs 27:12 says, "A prudent person forsees the danger ahead and takes precautions. The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences ". IMO, so many of us prefer to think only, that GOD will provide. I think that HE will but only if we're willing to follow HIS instruction and obey.

That said, even the government recommends that you have food stored. http://www.nationalterroralert.com/foodstorage/

When it comes to food storage, for short term storage, you can have whatever you eat on a regular basis. For long term storage, the easiest and cheapest, is dried beans and rice. You can get enough nourishment from those, to survive. Most canned goods are good for years beyond their expiration date. They've tested canned goods that were over ten years old and they were safe to eat, they just start to lose flavor and nutritional value, but they retain most of their nutritional value. There are exceptions to this. Canned tomatoes are acidic and do not last as long. They can eat through the cans. Also, never eat from a can that is dented, bulging or leaking! Don't forget water! You'll need one gallon of water person, per day.

There are those of you who will just pooh pooh all of this. So be it! But do you ever wonder what the Katrina survivors went through? What if something bigger happened? What would you do if there were no one taking care of you? IMO, most importantly, we must prepare ourselves mentally, so we don't fall to pieces during a disaster. Go over scenarios in your mind, ask yourself what you would do. Think ahead! Be prepared!


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Katrina & Mayor Ray Nagin = :shock: :evil: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

Nagin is the one who stated has to consult attorneys to see if he can use the parked school buses. :evil: :thumbdown: 
Many other atrocities committed by this 'human'.
And where does 'HE' evacuate to? Certainly not out of harms way Further North --- but leaves the country entirely! :evil: 
And what about 'Tulane'?? :evil:
So don't blame 'The Government' for what others do/choices made.

Other areas that were hit by Katrina had wonderful, quick responses.

BTW - Nagin is now serving a 10 year prison term.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> Katrina & Mayor Ray Nagin = :shock: :evil: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
> 
> Nagin is the one who stated has to consult attorneys to see if he can use the parked school buses. :evil: :thumbdown:
> Many other atrocities committed by this 'human'.
> ...


Nagin WAS the government! 
Do YOU know how YOUR local government will respond? And what about the feds, when they come in?

Katrina should act as a warning for what COULD happen. We prepare for what COULD happen. By the time we KNOW something is going to happen, it's too late to prepare.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Nagin WAS the government!
> Do YOU know how YOUR local government will respond? And what about the feds, when they come in?
> 
> Katrina should act as a warning for what COULD happen. We prepare for what COULD happen. By the time we KNOW something is going to happen, it's too late to prepare.


One Bad 'Government Official' does NOT reflect/speak for the whole echelon of Government Entities ----
Done with this so called 'Anti-Government' mentality grouped together because of ONE evil self-righteous SOB!
Even after all these years --- people still do not get it. :roll:
Other areas that were hit by Katrina ---- THEIR local governments - on the local and state level ----- :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: 
Even the National Government --- :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

And still haven't answered --- What about 'Tulane'?
That was NOT a government decision. :evil:


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## JoyceinNC (Oct 28, 2011)

NYBev said:


> Not going to even think about it. No one knows when the end will be except God himself. When my time comes, so be it.


No one can prepare for every single thing that MIGHT happen. We can only do so much, and when the time comes, turn to God to deal with the rest. That's just my experience and opinion.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

JoyceinNC said:


> No one can prepare for every single thing that MIGHT happen. We can only do so much, and when the time comes, turn to God to deal with the rest. That's just my experience and opinion.


I agree with you! 
Each should do what they can, and rely upon GOD for the rest.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Katrina was a major weather event. I am worried about a manmade event. Russia has been flying jets in American and Canadian airspace according to government reports. ISIS has infiltrated North America and is already attacking, although our government is tamping down that news to prevent panic. There is a lot of discussion of EMP attacks. Those could be triggered by a low grade nuclear attack or a natural event. The natural event would only produce localized damage, but a nuclear event could wipe out electrical systems from shore-to-shore. Imagine not being able to use your phones, cars, household appliances, radios or TVs (anything electrical) ever again. Imagine coordination between Russia and ISIS (which is occurring) with Russia neutralizing our ability to react and ISIS forces raging across the land and killing or enslaving people too weak to stop them. It could happen. 

Mental preparation for an event and a plan is key to survival. My oldest grandson is heading for college tomorrow, and we have given him a plan if an EMP attack occurs. He will be 55 miles from home. He has a bag with emergency rations, and he's physically fit. He knows to start walking home immediately but to stay off major roads. He knows that if we can get to him we will, and believe me we will be armed. But, he also knows he can do it. His ancestors walked into this land, and he can walk home. Preparation for an event that does not happen is not wasted time or energy. It is insurance and creates confidence.


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

Knit crazy, I had to check where you are from. You sounded like a Texan! It never hurts to be prepared but we can't focus on it. Gotta enjoy life. Make sure you have a good yarn stash!


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Except kale, but who can stand that stuff?


Me. I love kale!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

gypsie said:


> Me. I love kale!


I gladly award you my lifetime share. Enjoy.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think of it as truth in advertising. What you see is what you get.



gypsie said:


> Knit crazy, I had to check where you are from. You sounded like a Texan! It never hurts to be prepared but we can't focus on it. Gotta enjoy life. Make sure you have a good yarn stash!


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## JoyceinNC (Oct 28, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Katrina was a major weather event. I am worried about a manmade event. Russia has been flying jets in American and Canadian airspace according to government reports. ISIS has infiltrated North America and is already attacking, although our government is tamping down that news to prevent panic. There is a lot of discussion of EMP attacks. Those could be triggered by a low grade nuclear attack or a natural event. The natural event would only produce localized damage, but a nuclear event could wipe out electrical systems from shore-to-shore. Imagine not being able to use your phones, cars, household appliances, radios or TVs (anything electrical) ever again. Imagine coordination between Russia and ISIS (which is occurring) with Russia neutralizing our ability to react and ISIS forces raging across the land and killing or enslaving people too weak to stop them. It could happen.
> 
> Mental preparation for an event and a plan is key to survival. My oldest grandson is heading for college tomorrow, and we have given him a plan if an EMP attack occurs. He will be 55 miles from home. He has a bag with emergency rations, and he's physically fit. He knows to start walking home immediately but to stay off major roads. He knows that if we can get to him we will, and believe me we will be armed. But, he also knows he can do it. His ancestors walked into this land, and he can walk home. Preparation for an event that does not happen is not wasted time or energy. It is insurance and creates confidence.


The saddest thing about all this is the dark cloud it forms over us. If anti-United States groups and governments can take the joy out of our lives, they've already won the battle. Like I said before, I'm prepared as much as I can be, and not going to fret over things I can't change. There are still beautiful places on this Earth, and wonderful people to spend my time with. As far as I'm concerned, the whole idea of being prepared with food and other essential goods is to release me from being worried all the time about what might happen, and how I would deal with it.

Years ago, I knew people who not only stored several years of food and other things, but also guns and ammunition to protect themselves from those who would try to steal their goods. Each of us has to make a very serious decision about how we think about that, and act accordingly. If I died in some sort of attack or disaster, I would certainly want someone to come in and make use of whatever food they could. Come to think of it, I'm really not worried about surviving those huge disasters and attacks. Life after something catastrophic would be awful, and I have a firm faith in where my spirit will go after this life. Not trying to be offensive folks, just a different perspective on things.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

JoyceinNC said:


> The saddest thing about all this is the dark cloud it forms over us.


The saddest thing is the profiteers who spread fear deliberately to make money. Like Jim Bakker and people who sell survival supplies and guns and doom-and-gloom books.

Next saddest thing are people who lack the cognitive ability to discern when they are being scammed.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

gypsie said:


> Knit crazy, I had to check where you are from. You sounded like a Texan! It never hurts to be prepared but we can't focus on it. Gotta enjoy life. Make sure you have a good yarn stash!


I do have yarn. That's my favorite part of preparing. I also have a large garden and enjoy canning the produce. I am cooking down tomatoes right now to make ketchup. I have 25 quarts of spaghetti sauce canned already and 35 quarts of green beans. I will process chili sauce and whole tomatoes too. As long as I can store food, I will. I buy in bulk. It is just something I have always enjoyed doing (even before I began worrying about end times).


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

I guess we will have to survive off figs and plum cause those were my best growers this year. We eat the tomatoes and share as they ripen.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I gladly award you my lifetime share. Enjoy.


I like kale in soups, but it is too strong for me to eat alone. I think kale is one of the foods Michelle Obama was pushing for student lunches - the lunches the students wouldn't eat. Lots of money is being wasted in school lunches prepared and thrown out. Think of the homeless shelters which would have been grateful for ANY food. Somehow the government just thinks if they will it, it will be successful.

One thing raising 4 children taught me is that young people have limited taste buds. They like comfort food, not health food. Of course, if they grow up only knowing health food, they probably accept it because they don't know any better, but trying to reprogram eating habits at 6 or 16 is impossible.

Why can't our government understand it is not all or nothing? Limit salt, don't provide mayonnaise, use cheese sparingly, eliminate soda pop and chips. That would have been progress. Re-engineering what students eat entirely was just silly and wasteful.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

gypsie said:


> I guess we will have to survive off figs and plum cause those were my best growers this year. We eat the tomatoes and share as they ripen.


Wish I had figs. Yum!


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

DGreen said:


> The saddest thing is the profiteers who spread fear deliberately to make money. Like Jim Bakker and people who sell survival supplies and guns and doom-and-gloom books.
> 
> Next saddest thing are people who lack the cognitive ability to discern when they are being scammed.


Paranoia will destroy ya!


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> I like kale in soups, but it is too strong for me to eat alone. I think kale is one of the foods Michelle Obama was pushing for student lunches - the lunches the students wouldn't eat. Lots of money is being wasted in school lunches prepared and thrown out. Think of the homeless shelters which would have been grateful for ANY food. Somehow the government just thinks if they will it, it will be successful.
> 
> One thing raising 4 children taught me is that young people have limited taste buds. They like comfort food, not health food. Of course, if they grow up only knowing health food, they probably accept it because they don't know any better, but trying to reprogram eating habits at 6 or 16 is impossible
> 
> Why can't our government understand it is not all or nothing? Limit salt, don't provide mayonnaise, use cheese sparingly, eliminate soda pop and chips. That would have been progress. Re-engineering what students eat entirely was just silly and wasteful.


I come from the other end. Milk, Fruit, non starchy veggies, unprocessed cheese and meats. I don't think salt should be limited in kids. Cut the sugar, provide the protein.


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Wish I had figs. Yum!


Oh my they are so good and very hard to not eat them.


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## 133163 (May 11, 2015)

Y2K I can just picture people under their beds with their boots on. What a lot of hysteria then. Remember it so well. Have you noticed that Hollywood is on this sort of bandwagon as well? Movies over the last few years have had the theme of end of the world and dreadful zombie type plagues and such. These things go in cycles. The only question we need to ask ourselves is 'What have I done about Jesus?' Answer that one according to God's Word and whatever big happens, it's all good.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> One thing raising 4 children taught me is that young people have limited taste buds. They like comfort food, not health food. Of course, if they grow up only knowing health food, they probably accept it because they don't know any better, but trying to reprogram eating habits at 6 or 16 is impossible.


Young people do NOT have limited taste buds. If they are allowed to be picky, they will be picky and some love being in control by making food an issue. Parents who fall for that crap are allowing themselves to be manipulated.

There are no picky eaters where food is truly scarce.

Don't like dinner at my table? BREAKFAST IS AT 7:00.


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## 133163 (May 11, 2015)

I made a joke once when I had read Tim LaHaye's books on prophesy and then the Left Behind Series. I said that I keep the house tidy because after the Rapture when people loot our house, I want them to be able to find what they're looking for. 

I am trying to be light about this. But in all honesty, I can understand people being unnerved by the talk of ISIS attacks and such. After all, look at 9-11. I'm Canadian and it impacted my emotions and sense of safebeing. I am nowhere near ground zero. It is a real fact of life that people want to hurt us. Again I say, depend on God's saving grace and whatever happens, whenever it happens, it's all good.


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## Irish knitter (Mar 29, 2011)

nellie47 said:


> On the nightly news this week they reported that a "Godzilla" of El Nino is suppose to hit the west coast somewhere. It supposedly is forming in the Pacific


Then the next newscast they said the mountains were just above the line of the Godzilla of El Nino.......

Darn it.....I am waiting for the rain.....

I want my house to wash away so I can move to Oregon.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Teenager Taste Buds
A 2002 study at the University of Western Sydney shows that there is a greater density of taste buds in a child's papillae compared to adults that is linked to children having a higher predisposition to sugar. The same study also shows that teenagers have higher anterior papillae density than adults. Around the time children become teenagers, Science Nordic states the "Mass Experiment 2012" study at the University of Copenhagen shows that teens have a decreased interest in sugary tastes. Teenagers portray an increased ability and sophistication in in distinguishing between tastes as a result, although they are even less likely to try new foods than very young children.


DGreen said:


> Young people do NOT have limited taste buds. If they are allowed to be picky, they will be picky and some love being in control by making food an issue. Parents who fall for that crap are allowing themselves to be manipulated.
> 
> There are no picky eaters where food is truly scarce.
> 
> Don't like dinner at my table? BREAKFAST IS AT 7:00.


Science does show differences between children's taste buds and adults.


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## Irish knitter (Mar 29, 2011)

You guys....I REALLY need to know if the end of the world is coming in September because then I can eat all the chocolate I want......and speghetti and meatballs and not worry about all the weight I gain!!!!

I truly NEED to know......


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Irish knitter said:


> You guys....I REALLY need to know if the end of the world is coming in September because then I can eat all the chocolate I want......and speghetti and meatballs and not worry about all the weight I gain!!!!
> 
> I truly NEED to know......


I think we should just start now! Time's a wastin'!


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Irish knitter said:


> Then the next newscast they said the mountains were just above the line of the Godzilla of El Nino.......
> 
> Darn it.....I am waiting for the rain.....
> 
> I want my house to wash away so I can move to Oregon.


I hope the rain predicted restores some of California's deficit. It is such a shame. Once again, the EPA created a disaster by protecting the Delta Smelt in CA and forcing river water to be diverted to the ocean to save the smelt.

I almost cry when I see what the EPA had done to rivers in CO and NM. I toured a closed gold mine in CO last May. It was closed around 100 years ago because an accident occurred like the recent EPA caused event. Back then, however, it was miners breaking through a tunnel wall and flooding the nearby town. Today ranchers and farmers must deal with heavy metal poisoning of livestock and crops.

I wouldn't want to raise children there anytime in the next 100 years. I'll bet there will be increased cancer incidents and learning disabilities from this poisoning. I am beginning to think the EPA causes more problems than it corrects.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

El Niño would bring Southern California some welcome rain. Well, except for those who live in areas that have been ravaged by fire--they'll end up with mudslides as usual, if they haven't been smart enough to plant some ground cover or taken other precautions, which they usually haven't been.

The only other thing I can think that is coming would happen in October rather than November: the Republicans are threatening to shut down the government _again_ if they don't get their way.


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## Irish knitter (Mar 29, 2011)

NYBev said:


> Not going to even think about it. No one knows when the end will be except God himself. When my time comes, so be it.


Me too.....but I really wish I had an idea so I could have one last dish of speghetti and meatballs.........

I REALLY LOVE IT...that is my favorite food besides chocolate....


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## grammyv (Feb 11, 2011)

I hate to expose my ignorance but if I don't ask, I will never learn!

What is an "EMP attack"?? (Besides being just another thing to scare me!)


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

Irish knitter said:


> You guys....I REALLY need to know if the end of the world is coming in September because then I can eat all the chocolate I want......and speghetti and meatballs and not worry about all the weight I gain!!!!
> 
> I truly NEED to know......


Really I totally agree!


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

grammyv said:


> I hate to expose my ignorance but if I don't ask, I will never learn!
> 
> What is an "EMP attack"?? (Besides being just another thing to scare me!)


This will explain it.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/james-woolsey-and-peter-vincent-pry-the-growing-threat-from-an-emp-attack-1407885281


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

grammyv said:


> I hate to expose my ignorance but if I don't ask, I will never learn!
> 
> What is an "EMP attack"?? (Besides being just another thing to scare me!)


Electromagnetic pulse


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## Irish knitter (Mar 29, 2011)

Is Ray Nagen really in jail? For what?

I never heard anything about "September"......where are all of you hearing this?


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Irish knitter said:


> Is Ray Nagen really in jail? For what?


Yes he is in PRISON since last year -- Google his name and you will find all the news articles and the charges that he was found guilty of.
Of the 21 counts against him, he was convicted of 20. 
I do not wish to get into a 'political' debate about Katrina and the SOB.


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## Irish knitter (Mar 29, 2011)

galaxycraft said:


> Yes he is in PRISON since last year -- Google his name and you will find all the news articles and the charges that he was found guilty of.
> Of the 21 counts against him, he was convicted of 20.
> I do not wish to get into a 'political' debate about Katrina and the SOB.


Thank you.....I will. Boy; I really am in the dark.....
here I thought he was a nice guy.....


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> Teenager Taste Buds
> A 2002 study at the University of Western Sydney shows that there is a greater density of taste buds in a child's papillae compared to adults that is linked to children having a higher predisposition to sugar. The same study also shows that teenagers have higher anterior papillae density than adults. Around the time children become teenagers, Science Nordic states the "Mass Experiment 2012" study at the University of Copenhagen shows that teens have a decreased interest in sugary tastes. Teenagers portray an increased ability and sophistication in in distinguishing between tastes as a result, although they are even less likely to try new foods than very young children.
> 
> Science does show differences between children's taste buds and adults.


Not the point. Children will manipulate parents to give them what they want so it's up to parents to resist and give children what they NEED, which is a balanced diet with plenty of variety.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> I hope the rain predicted restores some of California's deficit. It is such a shame. Once again, the EPA created a disaster by protecting the Delta Smelt in CA and forcing river water to be diverted to the ocean to save the smelt.
> 
> I almost cry when I see what the EPA had done to rivers in CO and NM. I toured a closed gold mine in CO last May. It was closed around 100 years ago because an accident occurred like the recent EPA caused event. Back then, however, it was miners breaking through a tunnel wall and flooding the nearby town. Today ranchers and farmers must deal with heavy metal poisoning of livestock and crops.
> 
> I wouldn't want to raise children there anytime in the next 100 years. I'll bet there will be increased cancer incidents and learning disabilities from this poisoning. I am beginning to think the EPA causes more problems than it corrects.


Your first paragraph is absolute, unmitigated horse crap. It doesn't matter in the least where river water was diverted - the MAGNITUDE of the drought is severe and caused by lack of rain. That one river diversion would have almost NO IMPACT on the shortages in the entire state. California is a very large state and to suggest that ONE river is the cause is not only ridiculous, it's plain stupid. Besides, preservation of wildlife species is important and if you want to know where the smelt fit in the food chain, educate yourself with facts and science. Eliminating smelt could eliminate fisheries that people depend on for food because the fish we eat feed on smelt. No smelt? Lots of fishermen and other people are left with no bigger fish to fish.

While the EPA was responsible for accidental release of toxic water, you have completely ignored where that water came from. The EPA didn't create the waste. The EPA isn't in the business of mining - they're in the business of cleaning up after mining concerns leave a dangerous mess. The EPA is YOUR ONLY HOPE against the big corporations and businesses that will leave toxic waste anywhere they can get away with it - often without telling you what you're exposed to. Again, the EPA doesn't create toxic waste that creates the problems - you're thinking of the Kochs.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Sorry--Wrong thread! Hope everything works out about the River situation!


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

Irish knitter said:


> Thank you.....I will. Boy; I really am in the dark.....
> here I thought he was a nice guy.....


You're doing better than me. I don't even know who he is. Gotta ask my dh and did or better yet Google!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> El Niño would bring Southern California some welcome rain. Well, except for those who live in areas that have been ravaged by fire--they'll end up with mudslides as usual, if they haven't been smart enough to plant some ground cover or taken other precautions, which they usually haven't been.
> 
> The only other thing I can think that is coming would happen in October rather than November: the Republicans are threatening to shut down the government _again_ if they don't get their way.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

Hmmm, a greedy opportunist.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

gypsie said:


> You're doing better than me. I don't even know who he is. Gotta ask my dh and did or better yet Google!


Mayor of New Orleans at the time of Katrina.


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Mayor of New Orleans at the time of Katrina.


Thanks, I also googled him. Too bad.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Irish knitter said:


> You guys....I REALLY need to know if the end of the world is coming in September because then I can eat all the chocolate I want......and speghetti and meatballs and not worry about all the weight I gain!!!!
> 
> I truly NEED to know......


It is not the end of the world in September. It is an economic crisis that is prophesied by Jonathan Cain. (Read Knit Crazy post on this thread).
If Jesus came back the world would keep on going during the seven years of tribulation. Then the Second Coming of Jesus when the army of Heave will come down to Earth for 1000 years. Then New Jerusalem. The Earth will be burned but the Kingdom of God will still be on Earth.
Not even Jesus knows when the Rapture will take place but things are lining up the book of Revelations.
I know you are joking about the chocolate and meat balls .
If the crisis comes or not Jesus is still coming back for His Bride one day that is for certain. So that is the most important thing to get ready for . We are not promised tomorrow.


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## Rosewood11 (Jan 25, 2011)

gypsie wrote:
You're doing better than me. I don't even know who he is. Gotta ask my dh and did or better yet Google!

DGreen wrote:
Mayor of New Orleans at the time of Katrina.

Oh, I remember who Ray Nagan was!!! He was the idiot that had to call George W. Bush to figure out whether or not he should bus people out of a city that was upteen feet below sea level when the Weather Channel was broadcasting the number of billions of gallons of water that was held in Katrina!!! How much sense does that take!?! For the record, I called him "Stuck on Stupid" in an email several days before the general that eventually ran things down there said that of him!!!

At that time we had two dogs--one lab and a schnauzer--and my mother was wheelchair bound. Had I been without a car in New Orleans at that point, I guarantee you that I would have started walking with my Dad, Mom, brother and the two dogs, and I'll bet you we'd have had rides for each of us before we hit the city limits. People in the south will help you if they know you have a need.


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## Rosewood11 (Jan 25, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> It is not the end of the world in September. It is an economic crisis that is prophesied by Jonathan Cain. (Read Knit Crazy post on this thread).
> If Jesus came back the world would keep on going during the seven years of tribulation. Then the Second Coming of Jesus when the army of Heave will come down to Earth for 1000 years. Then New Jerusalem. The Earth will be burned but the Kingdom of God will still be on Earth.
> Not even Jesus knows when the Rapture will take place but things are lining up the book of Revelations.
> I know you are joking about the chocolate and meat balls .
> If the crisis comes or not Jesus is still coming back for His Bride one day that is for certain. So that is the most important thing to get ready for . We are not promised tomorrow.


Amen, Sister!!!


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

When do the lizard people show up? Those are the guys who really scare me!


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## Rosewood11 (Jan 25, 2011)

ouijian said:


> When do the lizard people show up? Those are the guys who really scare me!


For that, you have to listen to George Noory's "Coast to Coast AM" (1:00AM to 5:00AM, Eastern), or Prophecy In The News on various cable/satellite religious channels.

You might also like reading "Exo-Vaticana" by Tom Horn and Cris Putnam. If that doesn't scare the bejeebers out of you, nothing will!!!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Rosewood11 said:


> For that, you have to listen to George Noory's "Coast to Coast AM" (1:00AM to 5:00AM, Eastern), or Prophecy In The News on various cable/satellite religious channels.
> 
> You might also like reading "Exo-Vaticana" by Tom Horn and Cris Putnam. If that doesn't scare the bejeebers out of you, nothing will!!!


I have to ask. Is this a serious answer?


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I have to ask. Is this a serious answer?


OMG!!!! This is hysterical. I can't stop laughing.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I have to ask. Is this a serious answer?


If you don't believe in God, this would be funny to you. It won't be funny when prophecy becomes fact. You'll be laughing all the way to the gates of Hell and beyond.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> If you don't believe in God, this would be funny to you. It won't be funny when prophecy becomes fact. You'll be laughing all the way to the gates of Hell and beyond.


You can stop threatening me with hell, Crazy. It doesn't exist so YOU are the one who will be surprised.


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

ouijian said:


> When do the lizard people show up? Those are the guys who really scare me!


I worry more about Godzilla. My dogs eat lizards.


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

gypsie said:


> I worry more about Godzilla. My dogs eat lizards.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Rosewood11 (Jan 25, 2011)

DGreen wrote:
I have to ask. Is this a serious answer?



ouijian said:


> OMG!!!! This is hysterical. I can't stop laughing.


I have to answer: Yes, the people I named are quite serious about Reptilians, Grays, etc., and the latter two have actually spoken to Astronomers/Physicists from the Vatican Observatory on Mt. Graham--considered by Native Americans to be a inter-dimensional portal--about alien presence, future arrival and who they will claim to be. (Remember the Pope talking about "baptizing" aliens?) So, yes, there are those who are serious, and who have major educational credentials on that side of the question.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

gypsie said:


> I worry more about Godzilla. My dogs eat lizards.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Not the point. Children will manipulate parents to give them what they want so it's up to parents to resist and give children what they NEED, which is a balanced diet with plenty of variety.


So you are the food Nazi in your house. Kudos to you for ignoring your children's preferences. When you are in a nursing home, they probably won't care if your situation is acceptable either or whether you are getting nutrition. You obviously never learned the Golden Rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I'm glad I didn't have a mother like you. I am also grateful that my Heavenly Father cares about me. That's the problem with being an atheist. You don't learn how to be a kind, moral person.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Rosewood11 said:


> DGreen wrote:
> I have to ask. Is this a serious answer?
> 
> I have to answer: Yes, the people I named are quite serious about Reptilians, Grays, etc., and the latter two have actually spoken to Astronomers/Physicists from the Vatican Observatory on Mt. Graham--considered by Native Americans to be a inter-dimensional portal--about alien presence, future arrival and who they will claim to be. (Remember the Pope talking about "baptizing" aliens?) So, yes, there are those who are serious, and who have major educational credentials on that side of the question.


But, are YOU a believer? They can be as serious as they want, but I would categorize them as nut cases, since I have a personal relationship with reality.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Here we go again --- It seems like after years of back and forth between you, It would stop at some point .....
Yada, yada, yada -- repeat, repeat, and repeat. :roll: 
Outta here.


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

I don't believe hell exists in the great beyond. I think hell is on earth for some!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> So you are the food Nazi in your house. Kudos to you for ignoring your children's preferences. When you are in a nursing home, they probably won't care if your situation is acceptable either or whether you are getting nutrition. You obviously never learned the Golden Rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I'm glad I didn't have a mother like you. I am also grateful that my Heavenly Father cares about me. That's the problem with being an atheist. You don't learn how to be a kind, moral person.


Your assumptions are total BS.

I never forced anyone to eat anything. Strictly "take it or leave it." I don't cater to small children because it is my job to provide them with the guidance they need to make it in the world on their own. I also made sure my children did their lessons, behaved morally and took personal responsibility for their decisions, as I do. Gee, I thought that was a trait you Teabaggers admired.

You obviously have no idea about TRUE morality. I do what is right because it is the right thing to do. Christians do what they are told because of some mythical being with promises. I don't need the promise of a reward like you do. I know I have only THIS life, so I make the most of it and live well - with integrity.

But then, judgmental Christians like you probably can't grasp that concept. Too bad to be you.


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## Rosewood11 (Jan 25, 2011)

DGreen said:


> But, are YOU a believer? They can be as serious as they want, but I would categorize them as nut cases, since I have a personal relationship with reality.


I have to say that I'm open to the existence of aliens of different types, only I believe they are manifestations of the demonic. Yes, I do believe the Bible, which means I believe in Heaven, Hell, satan and demons, etc. I think you only have to look at the stuff our government is involved in--like HAARP, and efforts to weaponize various diseases--and you'll know there are evil entities at work in this world. I should also like to quote Bob Harrington (the Chaplain of Bourbon Street) from a debate with Madeline Murray O'Hare: "If I'm right, you'll suffer for all eternity, but if you're right, you'll never know!!!"

There's another quote I heard from John Hagee, and I have friends to whom this applies, and you don't know how it frightens me for them. A man told John Hagee (at a very inopportune time) that he didn't believe in Hell. Pastor Hagee was in a very bad mood, and his response was one that he has acknowledged as less than charitable: "It's still real, and you're still going!!!"


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

DGreen said:


> You can stop threatening me with hell, Crazy. It doesn't exist so YOU are the one who will be surprised.


She won't be surprised. She will be deader 'n a doornail. Food for worms. Pushing up daisies. Ashes to ashes. Dust to dust. Life will go on. Without her.


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

Ok. That's not true about atheist. Don't judge. Good Christians don't judge. This fun conversation has taken a bad turn. My God is nature and the universe. Why criticize each other? Agree to disagree. You are being religion Nazis now! Adios!


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Rosewood11 said:


> DGreen wrote:
> I have to ask. Is this a serious answer?
> 
> I have to answer: Yes, the people I named are quite serious about Reptilians, Grays, etc., and the latter two have actually spoken to Astronomers/Physicists from the Vatican Observatory on Mt. Graham--considered by Native Americans to be a inter-dimensional portal--about alien presence, future arrival and who they will claim to be. (Remember the Pope talking about "baptizing" aliens?) So, yes, there are those who are serious, and who have major educational credentials on that side of the question.


Please. Do not drag Native Americans into your theology. These beautiful people have been through enough already.


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## Rosewood11 (Jan 25, 2011)

Gypsie, I think you are right about just dropping the conversation. None of us is going to change the other's mind. Have a good weekend, and a great September!!!


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Your assumptions are total BS.
> 
> I never forced anyone to eat anything. Strictly "take it or leave it." I don't cater to small children because it is my job to provide them with the guidance they need to make it in the world on their own. I also made sure my children did their lessons, behaved morally and took personal responsibility for their decisions, as I do. Gee, I thought that was a trait you Teabaggers admired.
> 
> ...


You are to be pitied. As a Christian, I forgive you for the hate you spew toward everyone. Whether God forgives you is His judgment. You are digging a big hole with Him, and are too ignorant to know it. So, I pity you.


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

&#128536;&#128536;&#128536;


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## Rosewood11 (Jan 25, 2011)

ouijian said:


> Please. Do not drag Native Americans into your theology. These beautiful people have been through enough already.


Ouijan, I'm not dragging Native Americans anywhere. This is THEIR theology. Look up the Hopi elders, and several others of the tribes from the Southwest. Their theology is FULL of this stuff--something I was completely unfamiliar with until just a couple years ago. Don't take my word for it at all. Look it up yourself.


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Rosewood11 said:


> Ouijan, I'm not dragging Native Americans anywhere. This is there theology. Look up the Hopi elders, and several others of the tribes from the Southwest. Their theology is FULL of this stuff--something I was completely unfamiliar with until just a couple years ago. Don't take my word for it at all. Look it up yourself.


Excuse me. I AM part Native American. From the Southwest.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Rosewood11 said:


> Gypsie, I think you are right about just dropping the conversation. None of us is going to change the other's mind. Have a good weekend, and a great September!!!


Rosewood, you are correct.

Observe who started threatening others with hell.


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## Irish knitter (Mar 29, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> It is not the end of the world in September. It is an economic crisis that is prophesied by Jonathan Cain. (Read Knit Crazy post on this thread).
> If Jesus came back the world would keep on going during the seven years of tribulation. Then the Second Coming of Jesus when the army of Heave will come down to Earth for 1000 years. Then New Jerusalem. The Earth will be burned but the Kingdom of God will still be on Earth.
> Not even Jesus knows when the Rapture will take place but things are lining up the book of Revelations.
> I know you are joking about the chocolate and meat balls .
> If the crisis comes or not Jesus is still coming back for His Bride one day that is for certain. So that is the most important thing to get ready for . We are not promised tomorrow.


I know....I just hope I am "forgiven" enough


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> You are to be pitied. As a Christian, I forgive you for the hate you spew toward everyone. Whether God forgives you is His judgment. You are digging a big hole with Him, and are too ignorant to know it. So, I pity you.


Please tell us all what hate I spewed? Specific words, please.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

ouijian said:


> She won't be surprised. She will be deader 'n a doornail. Food for worms. Pushing up daisies. Ashes to ashes. Dust to dust. Life will go on. Without her.


The French say, "eating dandelions from the roots up"

Something about that saying just cracks me up.


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## Rosewood11 (Jan 25, 2011)

ouijian said:


> Excuse me. I AM part Native American. From the Southwest.


I repeat, Look up the Hopi Elders. This is NOT Christians saying this of them. They've been shown on "Ancient Aliens" on History Channel, and appeared in interviews on major (non-Christian) radio and talk shows. They talk about Ant-People who took them underground in the Grand Canyon area and protected them from some kind of calamity. They also talk about "Lizard People," and I don't think they are as kind as the ones who look like ants.

I am not making fun of your heritage. Again, I knew nothing about this until a couple of years ago. Look into it and prove me wrong. I'm not judging their beliefs at all. I'm simply stating what they themselves said in a voluntary appearance. Much of this was not told to the white man for many years. Perhaps it's a joke and they're laughing at anyone who believes it, but I don't think so.


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## Artbarn (Aug 1, 2014)

DGreen said:


> Your first paragraph is absolute, unmitigated horse crap. It doesn't matter in the least where river water was diverted - the MAGNITUDE of the drought is severe and caused by lack of rain. That one river diversion would have almost NO IMPACT on the shortages in the entire state. California is a very large state and to suggest that ONE river is the cause is not only ridiculous, it's plain stupid. Besides, preservation of wildlife species is important and if you want to know where the smelt fit in the food chain, educate yourself with facts and science. Eliminating smelt could eliminate fisheries that people depend on for food because the fish we eat feed on smelt. No smelt? Lots of fishermen and other people are left with no bigger fish to fish.
> 
> While the EPA was responsible for accidental release of toxic water, you have completely ignored where that water came from. The EPA didn't create the waste. The EPA isn't in the business of mining - they're in the business of cleaning up after mining concerns leave a dangerous mess. The EPA is YOUR ONLY HOPE against the big corporations and businesses that will leave toxic waste anywhere they can get away with it - often without telling you what you're exposed to. Again, the EPA doesn't create toxic waste that creates the problems - you're thinking of the Kochs.


Wow. Here we go with personal attacks again.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Please tell us all what hate I spewed? Specific words, please.


Unfortunately for you, you are a known caustic personality on KP. Everywhere you go you pick fights and spread dissension. Your heart seems black with hate and you can't help sharing it. I have been attacked before by you as have many others. Once again, you are to be pitied.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> You are to be pitied. As a Christian, I forgive you for the hate you spew toward everyone. Whether God forgives you is His judgment. You are digging a big hole with Him, and are too ignorant to know it. So, I pity you.


I don't need or want your forgiveness, since you are implying that by *not believing,* I am doing something wrong that calls for forgiveness.

I stated that I don't cater to picky eaters and YOU are the one who immediately called ME a Nazi. It appears that you have a pre-determined dislike of me based on the fact that I have different political and religious views than you. Let me remind you, I didn't bring politics into the discussion so it is YOU who would be carrying some kind of agenda against me.

As for being atheist, I am openly and proudly so. There is no difference between me declaring there is no hell than you declaring there is a god. Each of those are simple statements - there is no need for further commentary. I did not call you stupid for believing in god or say you deserved punishment for that. However, YOU took it upon yourself to tell me I was going to burn in hell, that I am ignorant, that I'm digging a hole for myself, etc. Those are not positive statements and clearly imply that I'm deserving of eternal punishment. If THAT isn't a judgment, I don't know what is.

You need to give up your hatred of atheists. We don't hurt you. We have nothing to sell you. We don't condemn you to eternal torture. Get a life and stop playing the victim because it's really the other way around.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Artbarn said:


> Wow. Here we go with personal attacks again.


Please put forward a reasonable argument disputing anything in my post.


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## Artbarn (Aug 1, 2014)

DGreen said:


> Please put forward a reasonable argument disputing anything in my post.


I refuse to get involved in this "argument." I was simply pointing out that the personal attacks have begun.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Artbarn said:


> Wow. Here we go with personal attacks again.


By yhe way, I attacked the arguments. I did not call the poster names.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Jenny: I agree w/ you! :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Artbarn (Aug 1, 2014)

DGreen said:


> By yhe way, I attacked the arguments. I did not call the poster names.


Fine line.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> Unfortunately for you, you are a known caustic personality on KP. Everywhere you go you pick fights and spread dissension. Your heart seems black with hate and you can't help sharing it. I have been attacked before by you as have many others. Once again, you are to be pitied.


You did not answer the question. Specifics, please, not your opinion of me.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Artbarn said:


> I refuse to get involved in this "argument." I was simply pointing out that the personal attacks have begun.


Then you have nothing to add about the actual topic?

In that case, it is YOU who are making it personal.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

mmorris said:


> Jenny: I agree w/ you! :thumbup: :thumbup:


who is jenny?


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## Artbarn (Aug 1, 2014)

DGreen said:


> Then you have nothing to add about the actual topic?
> 
> In that case, it is YOU who are making it personal.


Because you say so?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Artbarn said:


> Because you say so?


You jumped in and made the comment and it was about the people posting, not the subject being discussed. Your intent was to criticize and if you can't see that I can't explain it any more simply.


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## Artbarn (Aug 1, 2014)

DGreen said:


> You jumped in and made the comment and it was about the people posting, not the subject being discussed. Your intent was to criticize and if you can't see that I can't explain it any more simply.


Because it was not your intent to criticize???


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

S. T. O. P


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Artbarn said:


> Because it was not your intent to criticize???


If you want an answer you will have to clarify the question. Are you saying I was criticizing you or someone else?


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## pengee (Jul 24, 2011)

Oh please everyone, close this terrible can of worms which I tried to avoid being opened when I answered a question from a member about what was supposedly going to happen in September with what I hoped was an open answer. I provided some websites for anyone to have a look at if they so wished and I see some others have also kindly provided some giving a different perspective from mine, which they are perfectly at liberty to do. This was not meant to turn into a religious war or a trading of insults. Let's put a stop to this NOW and return to our original purpose, knitting. We will achieve far more that way and no-one will be offended. Blessings to all.


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

I think the problem starts with statements like, "I pity you, and you're going to Hell."


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

pengee said:


> Oh please everyone, close this terrible can of worms which I tried to avoid being opened when I answered a question from a member about what was supposedly going to happen in September with what I hoped was an open answer. I provided some websites for anyone to have a look at if they so wished and I see some others have also kindly provided some giving a different perspective from mine, which they are perfectly at liberty to do. This was not meant to turn into a religious war or a trading of insults. Let's put a stop to this NOW and return to our original purpose, knitting. We will achieve far more that way and no-one will be offended. Blessings to all.


Just to be clear, it was Knit Crazy who brought politics and religion into the discussion. Go back and see for yourself if you don't believe me.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

ouijian said:


> I think the problem starts with statements like, "I pity you, and you're going to Hell."


Yeah, that statement is always a problem for me. Funny, Christians are always saying that to atheists but atheists rarely say anything so hateful and judgmental. We're not trying to convert anyone, but they do . Weird.


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

The bigger person will stop first. And I'm a dumbass for even caring!&#128533;


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## JoyceinNC (Oct 28, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Yeah, that statement is always a problem for me. Funny, Christians are always saying that to atheists but atheists rarely say anything so hateful and judgmental. We're not trying to convert anyone, but they do . Weird.


I've been on the receiving end of some pretty mean, hateful and judgmental comments from atheists. It seems to me, it doesn't matter so much what a person believes, but whether they can respect other people's choice of beliefs (or no beliefs). There seem to be good and bad in every group.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Dish Cloth: I remember the 'Whackos from Waco." They had been given plenty of chances to leave;


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Had an uncle that was a career Navy officer. He would forecast the weather by maxims: 'Pink sky at night; Sailors' delight; Pink Sky at Morning--Sailor take Warning.' Amazingly accurate! :-D


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

JoyceinNC said:


> I've been on the receiving end of some pretty mean, hateful and judgmental comments from atheists. It seems to me, it doesn't matter so much what a person believes, but whether they can respect other people's choice of beliefs (or no beliefs). There seem to be good and bad in every group.


You are correct.

It's too bad you have been on the receiving end of hateful comments. Sad.

I have been threatened with physical harm for being atheist. If you read this whole thread, Knit Crazy said some very vile things about me, apparently based on the fact that she is aware I'm not a believer, not because they are true. People feel threatened by atheists for some reason and I can never figure out why. We don't evangelize or go door to door or expect tax-exempt status. But we DO have the same right of free speech as anyone else. Generally, Christians in the US are not criticized or ostracized for having faith, but some people sure get upset over atheists.


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## Shdy990 (Mar 10, 2011)

there wasn't any anti Christ in the 1800's = no idea where that came from. There is one and he isn't here yet. The rapture theory came about in the 1800's and was a dream a mentally girl had and said it was evil and some preachers acted like it was a new religion. It isn't in the Bible.


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## Shdy990 (Mar 10, 2011)

I don't care what others believe. I feel what you put out there is what you get. If you believe in an afterlife, you get one. If you don't, you don't.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Irish knitter said:


> I know....I just hope I am "forgiven" enough


You only have to ask one time. The Father will hear you thru Jesus the Son. XX


----------



## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

Shdy990 said:


> there wasn't any anti Christ in the 1800's = no idea where that came from. There is one and he isn't here yet. The rapture theory came about in the 1800's and was a dream a mentally girl had and said it was evil and some preachers acted like it was a new religion. It isn't in the Bible.


Sounds good to me! I like this story. It's more believable.


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## SherrySherry (Mar 1, 2014)

People just refuse to moderate themselves until personal attacks result. I had to learn the hard way. Stay away and stay silent. Otherwise it's anger, hurt feelings, bad feelings general nastiness. This happens because people are convinced they are right. People who are always right are the ones who have accidents because they refuse to give in. This whole thread is a genuine lack of human respect for each other.


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## pengee (Jul 24, 2011)

Regardless of whoever it was, let's not continue it. It does not serve any purpose and generates nastiness and this site is not for generation of nastiness. If we respond with nastness we just keep it going unnecessarily. If we all say ENOUGH it will stop there and then.


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## Judy M (Feb 17, 2011)

We are always in danger of fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, land slides, erupting volcanoes, earthquakes ...

In fact today 2 volcanoes were reported as being active - Mexico and Japan I think they were.


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## Shdy990 (Mar 10, 2011)

I read New Jersey had a mild earthquake. I don't care where you are, even at church, there has to be some who make a deal over anything. Makes it hard to make friend, real ones, with anyone.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> The saddest thing is the profiteers who spread fear deliberately to make money. Like Jim Bakker and people who sell survival supplies and guns and doom-and-gloom books.
> 
> Next saddest thing are people who lack the cognitive ability to discern when they are being scammed.


You got that right!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Avatar is truth in advertising. IMHO



Knit crazy said:


> If you don't believe in God, this would be funny to you. It won't be funny when prophecy becomes fact. You'll be laughing all the way to the gates of Hell and beyond.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I see you're from Youngstown OH. Please read a real book and find an open mind. You'll need it if you become exposed to the rest of the world. Hoping...



Rosewood11 said:


> DGreen wrote:
> I have to ask. Is this a serious answer?
> 
> I have to answer: Yes, the people I named are quite serious about Reptilians, Grays, etc., and the latter two have actually spoken to Astronomers/Physicists from the Vatican Observatory on Mt. Graham--considered by Native Americans to be a inter-dimensional portal--about alien presence, future arrival and who they will claim to be. (Remember the Pope talking about "baptizing" aliens?) So, yes, there are those who are serious, and who have major educational credentials on that side of the question.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

ouijian said:


> She won't be surprised. She will be deader 'n a doornail. Food for worms. Pushing up daisies. Ashes to ashes. Dust to dust. Life will go on. Without her.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Quote from Cory Booker:

Dont speak to me about your religion; first show it to me in how you treat other people.

Don't tell me how much you love your God; show me in how much you love all His children.

Don't preach to me your passion for your faith; teach me through your compassion for your neighbors.

In the end, I'm not as interested in what you have to tell or sell as in how you choose to live and give.



Knit crazy said:


> You are to be pitied. As a Christian, I forgive you for the hate you spew toward everyone. Whether God forgives you is His judgment. You are digging a big hole with Him, and are too ignorant to know it. So, I pity you.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> Unfortunately for you, you are a known caustic personality on KP. Everywhere you go you pick fights and spread dissension. Your heart seems black with hate and you can't help sharing it. I have been attacked before by you as have many others. Once again, you are to be pitied.


 :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:Referring to DGreen, an intelligent and informed member.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen seems logical to me. I'd like to hear YOUR thoughts.



DGreen said:


> I don't need or want your forgiveness, since you are implying that by *not believing,* I am doing something wrong that calls for forgiveness.
> 
> I stated that I don't cater to picky eaters and YOU are the one who immediately called ME a Nazi. It appears that you have a pre-determined dislike of me based on the fact that I have different political and religious views than you. Let me remind you, I didn't bring politics into the discussion so it is YOU who would be carrying some kind of agenda against me.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

IYHO.(In Your Honest Opinion) Please remember to add. Thank you.



Artbarn said:


> I refuse to get involved in this "argument." I was simply pointing out that the personal attacks have begun.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's fact vs feeling.



Artbarn said:


> Fine line.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No. This is how the real world operates. Where are you?



Artbarn said:


> Because you say so?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think the same can be said of Christians. With that clarification, I'd say your comment is true.



JoyceinNC said:


> I've been on the receiving end of some pretty mean, hateful and judgmental comments from atheists. It seems to me, it doesn't matter so much what a person believes, but whether they can respect other people's choice of beliefs (or no beliefs). There seem to be good and bad in every group.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'd feel better listening to the Coast Guard, but if it works for you....



mmorris said:


> Had an uncle that was a career Navy officer. He would forecast the weather by maxims: 'Pink sky at night; Sailors' delight; Pink Sky at Morning--Sailor take Warning.' Amazingly accurate! :-D


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

*Can anyone speak factually what went on in Christian churches in the early 19th century that brought about these new ideas?*



Shdy990 said:


> there wasn't any anti Christ in the 1800's = no idea where that came from. There is one and he isn't here yet. The rapture theory came about in the 1800's and was a dream a mentally girl had and said it was evil and some preachers acted like it was a new religion. It isn't in the Bible.


----------



## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

damemary said:


> Quote from Cory Booker:
> 
> Dont speak to me about your religion; first show it to me in how you treat other people.
> 
> ...


Love it. Hope I can remember it


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Copy and keep it on the computer where you can add it where you wish.



Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> Love it. Hope I can remember it


----------



## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

damemary said:


> Copy and keep it on the computer where you can add it where you wish.


Screenshot. love the screenshot function


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Control P?



Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> Screenshot. love the screenshot function


----------



## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

damemary said:


> Control P?


The windows button and print screen. It automatically saves to the screenshot folder  You have to be quick, or it takes you back to the start screen on Win 8.1.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks.



Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> The windows button and print screen. It automatically saves to the screenshot folder  You have to be quick, or it takes you back to the start screen on Win 8.1.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Shdy990 said:


> there wasn't any anti Christ in the 1800's = no idea where that came from. There is one and he isn't here yet. The rapture theory came about in the 1800's and was a dream a mentally girl had and said it was evil and some preachers acted like it was a new religion. It isn't in the Bible.


It is in the Bible. Read Revelations.


----------



## JoyceinNC (Oct 28, 2011)

DGreen said:


> You are correct.
> 
> It's too bad you have been on the receiving end of hateful comments. Sad.
> 
> I have been threatened with physical harm for being atheist. If you read this whole thread, Knit Crazy said some very vile things about me, apparently based on the fact that she is aware I'm not a believer, not because they are true. People feel threatened by atheists for some reason and I can never figure out why. We don't evangelize or go door to door or expect tax-exempt status. But we DO have the same right of free speech as anyone else. Generally, Christians in the US are not criticized or ostracized for having faith, but some people sure get upset over atheists.


Yes, I have read all the pages of posts on this thread. Besides atheists, there are lots of other religious people in the U.S. who don't hold the same views as Christians. I belong to a Christian church that has been persecuted terribly by both individuals and the government. The persecution simmers just below the surface, but let my church officials take a public stand on a hot social or moral item, and things get nasty. People here seem to forget that the federal constitution here has established religious freedom, which I interpret to include those who choose no religion. I remember very well the push to make everyone more tolerant of others in all ways here in the U.S. in the 1960's and 70's. In my opinion, it just all gone down the drain.

By the way, "for the record", I don't believe for a minute that being affiliated with a church or religion automatically makes you a good person. The reverse is also true - no religious affiliation does not automatically make someone a bad person. Anyone can choose to be caring, honest, dependable, a supporter of all good things....whether they are religious or not, no matter what religion they may choose. So, I choose not to get all worked up in a frenzy about it!

So, DGreen, hold on to what you know to be true. Somewhere down the road it will all work out.


----------



## JoyceinNC (Oct 28, 2011)

damemary said:


> *Can anyone speak factually what went on in Christian churches in the early 19th century that brought about these new ideas?*


My husband grew up in a Southern Baptist environment and never heard of the rapture until our daughter came home from high school one day talking about her Baptist friend's discussion about it. It was news to us!

As for anti-Christ doctrines....I am looking at a King James Version of the Bible, and the concordance gives me several New Testament references to an Antichrist (their spelling, not mine), and also refer to listings for Apostasy, False Christs and False Prophets.

These references are: 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 John 2:18; 1 John 2:22; 1 John 4:3; 2 John 1:7; Revelation 16:13; Revelation 19:20

So, these ideas have been around for a very long time. I wonder if the doctrinal focus of some Christian churches has shifted over the years? I grew up attending a Church of Christ and don't remember hearing about anti-Christs or rapture. This may have changed, I haven't attended any services of this church in a long time. The sermons back then were more on a practical every day application of the teachings of Jesus Christ. This is true of the church I belong to and attend now. Even when the discussion is about Christ's second coming or events after that, it always comes back to "what can I do today to change myself and be prepared for these events".

I agree completely with the previous post's statements about not preaching to people if we are not living what we believe. No point in being a bad advertisement!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Apparently you believe everything you read there literally. When are you stoning your neighbor to death?



Knit crazy said:


> It is in the Bible. Read Revelations.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I feel the truth in what you say. You and DGreen seem like good people (my measure of truth.)



JoyceinNC said:


> Yes, I have read all the pages of posts on this thread. Besides atheists, there are lots of other religious people in the U.S. who don't hold the same views as Christians. I belong to a Christian church that has been persecuted terribly by both individuals and the government. The persecution simmers just below the surface, but let my church officials take a public stand on a hot social or moral item, and things get nasty. People here seem to forget that the federal constitution here has established religious freedom, which I interpret to include those who choose no religion. I remember very well the push to make everyone more tolerant of others in all ways here in the U.S. in the 1960's and 70's. In my opinion, it just all gone down the drain.
> 
> By the way, "for the record", I don't believe for a minute that being affiliated with a church or religion automatically makes you a good person. The reverse is also true - no religious affiliation does not automatically make someone a bad person. Anyone can choose to be caring, honest, dependable, a supporter of all good things....whether they are religious or not, no matter what religion they may choose. So, I choose not to get all worked up in a frenzy about it!
> 
> So, DGreen, hold on to what you know to be true. Somewhere down the road it will all work out.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Quote, Cory Booker:

Dont speak to me about your religion; first show it to me in how you treat other people.
Don't tell me how much you love your God; show me in how much you love all His children.
Don't preach to me your passion for your faith; teach me through your compassion for your neighbors.
In the end, I'm not as interested in what you have to tell or sell as in how you choose to live and give.



JoyceinNC said:


> My husband grew up in a Southern Baptist environment and never heard of the rapture until our daughter came home from high school one day talking about her Baptist friend's discussion about it. It was news to us!
> 
> As for anti-Christ doctrines....I am looking at a King James Version of the Bible, and the concordance gives me several New Testament references to an Antichrist (their spelling, not mine), and also refer to listings for Apostasy, False Christs and False Prophets.
> 
> ...


----------



## JoyceinNC (Oct 28, 2011)

damemary said:


> Apparently you believe everything you read there literally. When are you stoning your neighbor to death?


It has always been my understanding that stoning someone to death was part of the ancient Jewish law and that Jesus Christ both fulfilled some parts of that law and changed other parts of it. The doctrines of Jesus found in the New Testament are definitely against stoning someone, and you may have noticed that Christians do not offer animal sacrifice. Jesus taught everyone to stop practicing the "eye for an eye" justice of the old law. So, anyone being literal about the New Testament is not going to stone anyone to death. Pray for your enemies, bless those that curse you. You get the idea...


----------



## 133163 (May 11, 2015)

Just a little aside from the vitriol I am seeing here, an 'eye for an eye', as was taught to me, meant that justice was to be appropriate for the crime committed. Do not over-punish the criminal. That is an explanation that made sense to me. 

Another lesson I learned is that we are not to be so heavenly minded that we are no earthly good. That goes well with the gentleman's lessons quoted here about living our Christian faith rather than preaching it. We need to be Jesus' representative here on earth. That is our mission. Let people know where we stand by how we stand and then let God do the rest. He will send out His Word through us and it will not come back to Him void.


----------



## JoyceinNC (Oct 28, 2011)

orilliastitcher said:


> an 'eye for an eye', as was taught to me, meant that justice was to be appropriate for the crime committed. Do not over-punish the criminal. That is an explanation that made sense to me.
> 
> And the "eye for an eye" that I learned about as a child included no mercy. Jesus' teachings are full of instruction about mercy and forgiveness.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

JoyceinNC said:


> Yes, I have read all the pages of posts on this thread. Besides atheists, there are lots of other religious people in the U.S. who don't hold the same views as Christians. I belong to a Christian church that has been persecuted terribly by both individuals and the government. The persecution simmers just below the surface, but let my church officials take a public stand on a hot social or moral item, and things get nasty. People here seem to forget that the federal constitution here has established religious freedom, which I interpret to include those who choose no religion. I remember very well the push to make everyone more tolerant of others in all ways here in the U.S. in the 1960's and 70's. In my opinion, it just all gone down the drain.
> 
> By the way, "for the record", I don't believe for a minute that being affiliated with a church or religion automatically makes you a good person. The reverse is also true - no religious affiliation does not automatically make someone a bad person. Anyone can choose to be caring, honest, dependable, a supporter of all good things....whether they are religious or not, no matter what religion they may choose. So, I choose not to get all worked up in a frenzy about it!
> 
> So, DGreen, hold on to what you know to be true. Somewhere down the road it will all work out.


Thank you for your kind and thoughtful post!


----------



## JoyceinNC (Oct 28, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Thank you for your kind and thoughtful post!


You're welcome. I thought about sending this to you in a PM, and decided it needed to be a part of this thread.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

JoyceinNC said:


> You're welcome. I thought about sending this to you in a PM, and decided it needed to be a part of this thread.


I sincerely appreciate that.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

damemary said:


> Apparently you believe everything you read there literally. When are you stoning your neighbor to death?


ISIS is doing it today. That was not Christ's teaching.


----------



## SherrySherry (Mar 1, 2014)

damemary said:


> Quote, Cory Booker:
> 
> Dont speak to me about your religion; first show it to me in how you treat other people.
> Don't tell me how much you love your God; show me in how much you love all His children.
> ...


Oh, I like this. Very wise words. "Be the change you wish to see in the world."


----------



## gardenlady4012 (Oct 18, 2014)

WindingRoad said:


> Here in the North East "they" say we are to have a mild winter. Ever wonder who "they" are??? LOL


Apparently this year's El Nino is shaping up to be very strong. These weather patterns "typically" bring warmer, drier weather to the northern tier of U.S. states, colder in the west, and much, much wetter in the south. Having been on the receiving end of one of these strong ones in Florida in the winter of 97-98, I'm not looking forward to having that much rain again (we had a year's worth, 45 inches, between mid November and the end of February). But then, we are talking about the weather so who the heck really knows?


----------



## 133163 (May 11, 2015)

gardenlady4012 said:


> Apparently this year's El Nino is shaping up to be very strong. These weather patterns "typically" bring warmer, drier weather to the northern tier of U.S. states, colder in the west, and much, much wetter in the south. Having been on the receiving end of one of these strong ones in Florida in the winter of 97-98, I'm not looking forward to having that much rain again (we had a year's worth, 45 inches, between mid November and the end of February). But then, we are talking about the weather so who the heck really knows?


When it comes to the weather, I generally get out of bed and look out the window. Forecasters do what they can and the weather does whatever in the earth it wants to do. As our son said when he was 3 years old, 'God doesn't have to do what they say.' Like you say, who the heck knows?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

orilliastitcher said:


> When it comes to the weather, I generally get out of bed and look out the window. Forecasters do what they can and the weather does whatever in the earth it wants to do. As our son said when he was 3 years old, 'God doesn't have to do what they say.' Like you say, who the heck knows?


 :lol:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

dogpine said:


> So I listened in stunned silence to a woman tell me a long and convoluted story, with an earnest straight face, about the upcoming "disaster" in September, a story that involved Obama, the Pope, Chinese soldiers, empty Walmarts connected via secret tunnels and the AntiChrist.... I responded with the only nut job sentence I could think of, "Paul is dead." (Now I hope some other nut job doesn't take me seriously). What??? I have better things to do, such as makin' a living and building up my yarn stash.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: That is so very funny! Thanks so much for the laugh, with the tears and the incessant coughing. :XD:


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

DGreen said:


> You are correct.
> 
> It's too bad you have been on the receiving end of hateful comments. Sad.
> 
> I have been threatened with physical harm for being atheist. If you read this whole thread, Knit Crazy said some very vile things about me, apparently based on the fact that she is aware I'm not a believer, not because they are true. People feel threatened by atheists for some reason and I can never figure out why. We don't evangelize or go door to door or expect tax-exempt status. But we DO have the same right of free speech as anyone else. Generally, Christians in the US are not criticized or ostracized for having faith, but some people sure get upset over atheists.


Yes, I have been in some conversations like this as well. In our country right now it is the non-believers who are under attack, not the believers. Those biblical passages about christians being persecuted are historic. It is certainly not the reality today. I have to wonder in this current political atmosphere, how many candidates who profess christianity are only doing so because to admit to their true beliefs (or lack thereof) would automatically eliminate them from contention. The hypocrisy turns my stomach.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cattdages said:


> Yes, I have been in some conversations like this as well. In our country right now it is the non-believers who are under attack, not the believers. Those biblical passages about christians being persecuted are historic. It is certainly not the reality today. I have to wonder in this current political atmosphere, how many candidates who profess christianity are only doing so because to admit to their true beliefs (or lack thereof) would automatically eliminate them from contention. The hypocrisy turns my stomach.


To admit to a lack of belief almost certainly would eliminate a candidate. I believe I read a poll that showed a significant percentage of voters would absolutely NOT vote for an atheist. Heck, I would prefer an atheist candidate who had no religious agenda to color decision making.

I agree that candidates profess faith they may not have. Suicide not to, but still hypocritical.


----------



## krestiekrew (Aug 24, 2012)

ouijian said:


> Nor sure if it will be bigger, but the predictions are pointing in that direction. My favorite weather blog discusses this in depth. Interesting reading.
> 
> http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2015/06/a-strong-el-nino-develops-what-does.html


I would like to find one like that for the Southeast!


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

cattdages said:


> Yes, I have been in some conversations like this as well. In our country right now it is the non-believers who are under attack, not the believers. Those biblical passages about christians being persecuted are historic. It is certainly not the reality today. I have to wonder in this current political atmosphere, how many candidates who profess christianity are only doing so because to admit to their true beliefs (or lack thereof) would automatically eliminate them from contention. The hypocrisy turns my stomach.


The thing that bothers me the most about this thread is the mashup of conspiracy theory with Christian prophets of doom. This is a very bad combination of ignorance and deceit. I wonder if these hucksters selling the guns, ammo, survivalist supplies, and fear really believe this crap or whether they do it to make money. The latter is my guess.


----------



## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

$$$$$


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

gypsie said:


> $$$$$


 :thumbup: :XD: :thumbup: :XD: :thumbup: :XD: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

ouijian said:


> The thing that bothers me the most about this thread is the mashup of conspiracy theory with Christian prophets of doom. This is a very bad combination of ignorance and deceit. I wonder if these hucksters selling the guns, ammo, survivalist supplies, and fear really believe this crap or whether they do it to make money. The latter is my guess.


My guess would be some warped combination of the two. I believe in both humanity's capacity for greed and their stupidity in equal measures. :roll: What bothers me the most is the use of fear to whip people up and manipulate them. Sad how naïve and gullible people can be, especially when the unscrupulous leverage their fears.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

cattdages said:


> Yes, I have been in some conversations like this as well. In our country right now it is the non-believers who are under attack, not the believers. Those biblical passages about christians being persecuted are historic. It is certainly not the reality today. I have to wonder in this current political atmosphere, how many candidates who profess christianity are only doing so because to admit to their true beliefs (or lack thereof) would automatically eliminate them from contention. The hypocrisy turns my stomach.


You are so wrong, and you must not pay attention to what Obama and the Supreme Court are doing to Christian values and beliefs. America is more secular than ever, marriage (a God-given covenant) is now corrupted, Planned Parenthood (a government subsidized organization) promotes tearing the unborn limb from limb, and belief in God is under attack. Now we have a president appeasing Iran and Muslims persecuting apostates (Christians, Jews, and Zorastrian sects) in the the Middle East. What will occur in September ( or whenever) will be directly tied to failure to stand with God. God will take his vengeance as promised in the Bible.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

cattdages said:


> My guess would be some warped combination of the two. I believe in both humanity's capacity for greed and their stupidity in equal measures. :roll: What bothers me the most is the use of fear to whip people up and manipulate them. Sad how naïve and gullible people can be, especially when the unscrupulous leverage their fears.


God warned everyone. The Bible speaks to God's consequences to unbelief and sin. Those who believe are saved. Those who don't are doomed. Pick your position.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> God warned everyone. The Bible speaks to God's consequences to unbelief and sin. Those who believe are saved. Those who don't are doomed. Pick your position.


Amen.


----------



## Shdy990 (Mar 10, 2011)

yes, everyone is master of their own fate


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

LeanaL said:


> No, that just sounds like you're mad that YOU'RE extreme version of Christianity isn't being aloud to dominate over other's beliefs.
> 
> For instance, many Gay people are getting married in their churches, most Christian, so that would be an EXPANSION of religion, not an attack on it.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Shdy990 (Mar 10, 2011)

No idea what you are talking about, but flooding the people with wrong until it is accepted, is still wrong. I think if a church wants the money for marriages of gays, let them, but don't go making a fuss with those who don't.


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> God warned everyone. The Bible speaks to God's consequences to unbelief and sin. Those who believe are saved. Those who don't are doomed. Pick your position.


Self-righteous much? You are attempting to quash discourse with your condemnation. My mother said we have 2 ears and 1 mouth because we need to listen twice as much to truly understand where others are coming from. I sense no interest in you in understanding me or my beliefs. Very old-testament of you. Christ would've listened.


----------



## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

cattdages said:


> My guess would be some warped combination of the two. I believe in both humanity's capacity for greed and their stupidity in equal measures. :roll: What bothers me the most is the use of fear to whip people up and manipulate them. Sad how naïve and gullible people can be, especially when the unscrupulous leverage their fears.


I've heard that's how they train elephants.


----------



## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> You are so wrong, and you must not pay attention to what Obama and the Supreme Court are doing to Christian values and beliefs. America is more secular than ever, marriage (a God-given covenant) is now corrupted, Planned Parenthood (a government subsidized organization) promotes tearing the unborn limb from limb, and belief in God is under attack. Now we have a president appeasing Iran and Muslims persecuting apostates (Christians, Jews, and Zorastrian sects) in the the Middle East. What will occur in September ( or whenever) will be directly tied to failure to stand with God. God will take his vengeance as promised in the Bible.


I guess if you believe in the bible then you will believe that. However not all people believe in the bible. And don't forget that Muslims, Jews and Zorastrians also believe in God. Who will God stand with? Iranians are not bad people. There are good people all over the world who are not Christians. Good people with evil rulers. As a whole most people on this earth want peace, they want to live and let live. They want to agree to disagree. In short, freedom to worship as they please.


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

gypsie said:


> I guess if you believe in the bible then you will believe that. However not all people believe in the bible. And don't forget that Muslims, Jews and Zorastrians also believe in God. Who will God stand with? Iranians are not bad people. There are good people all over the world who are not Christians. Good people with evil rulers. As a whole most people on this earth want peace, they want to live and let live. They want to agree to disagree. In short, freedom to worship as they please.


What American christians often forget, is that our constitution does not support christianity, it supports the freedom to follow the religion we choose. There are loyal, patriotic Americans of every religion who have chosen to live here and are loyal for just that reason.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

ouijian said:


> The thing that bothers me the most about this thread is the mashup of conspiracy theory with Christian prophets of doom. This is a very bad combination of ignorance and deceit. I wonder if these hucksters selling the guns, ammo, survivalist supplies, and fear really believe this crap or whether they do it to make money. The latter is my guess.


I believe it is to make money. John Oliver did a very good piece on the money-grubbing televangelists this week.






Watch the whole piece - I laughed so hard I peed a tiny little bit.


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## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I believe it is to make money. John Oliver did a very good piece on the money-grubbing televangelists this week.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

cattdages said:


> Self-righteous much? You are attempting to quash discourse with your condemnation. My mother said we have 2 ears and 1 mouth because we need to listen twice as much to truly understand where others are coming from. I sense no interest in you in understanding me or my beliefs. Very old-testament of you. Christ would've listened.


You are good at personal attacks, but you don't know Christ. He would have been saddened by your lack of knowledge of God because it is so available to you in the Bible.


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

cattdages said:


> What American christians often forget, is that our constitution does not support christianity, it supports the freedom to follow the religion we choose. There are loyal, patriotic Americans of every religion who have chosen to live here and are loyal for just that reason.


So true. If our constitution supported Christianity, then it must also support every religion or non religion.


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> You are good at personal attacks, but you don't know Christ. He would have been saddened by your lack of knowledge of God because it is so available to you in the Bible.


It seems I remember a quote from the bible from when I was forced into the Baptist religion as a child. Even then I knew I didn't belong in that group. "Judge not lest ye be judged." Is that it?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cattdages said:


> What American christians often forget, is that our constitution does not support christianity, it supports the freedom to follow the religion we choose. There are loyal, patriotic Americans of every religion who have chosen to live here and are loyal for just that reason.


Yes, our Constitution "supports the freedom to follow the religion we choose". Unfortunately, the supreme court does not! Christians will now be prosecuted for refusing to participate in homosexual " marriages". They will not be allowed to follow their beliefs, without persecution. So, what happened to the Constitution?


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## Shdy990 (Mar 10, 2011)

I have a question. If you know a place is against gays and you are gay, why would you want to have your cake or whatever done by them and make them money. Sounds more like troublemaking to me.

The judge thing is right and there is the fact that only God is the judge.


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## kiwiannie (Jul 30, 2011)

In this day and age who knows,it's anyones guess.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I believe it is to make money. John Oliver did a very good piece on the money-grubbing televangelists this week.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I could not watch the whole thing. It was disgusting!

I do not believe that it is indicative of anything, other than the fact that evil can be found anywhere. I don't think that anyone could deny that we've got corrupt politicians, corrupt police officers, and corrupt public servants. We've doctors who molest and rape, teachers who molest and rape, people who take advantage of the elderly and lawyers who cheat and steal. No occupation is immune to evil. 
I also believe that most of the churches have become corrupt, being more interested in money than souls. I think that it's a sad sign of what we've become. But even if the majority were evil and corrupt, that wouldn't mean that everyone is. We can tell who people are, by the fruit that they bear.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cattdages said:


> that was SO AWESOME. Disgusting human beings!


You thought that was awesome? I wonder what that says about you.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Weird probings? That was what my "marital life" consisted of.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

gypsie said:


> So true. If our constitution supported Christianity, then it must also support every religion or non religion.


Our Constitution "supports" no religion. It forbids congress from passing any laws which prohibit the FREE EXERCISE of religion! Sadly, the supreme court doesn't think that the Constitution applies to them.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

gypsie said:


> It seems I remember a quote from the bible from whennowas forced into the Baptist religion as a child. Even then I knew I didn't belong in that group. "Judge not lest ye be judged." Is that it?


We are not to judge one another, but we are to judge the fruits of each individual. We are told repeatedly to judge what we see and what we hear. ie, JESUS said in John 7:24 says, "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgement.". We are told repeatedly to use discernment. Discernment means, "the ability to judge well". So, while we are admonished to not judge each other, we are to judge actions and words.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

kiwiannie said:


> In this day and age who knows,it's anyones guess.


Who knows what???


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

People have the right to choose their mates whether one likes it or not. Why judge or criticize if it does not affect you. And why are Christians now persecuted? I don't think so. It is still a big money making machine. Religion is a tool. It's just a fact. Some need it to hang on and justify their existence. Others use it to control. Without it we would probably all be a bunch of heathens. Mine is nature but I respect all others. I find theology interesting. Actually if you study all the religions to me they seem to cross paths here and there. Just be kind. Respect one another's beliefs. Don't argue and try to push your beliefs on another, don't judge, just do your own thing and stay off another's toes, turf or whatever! This is how wars are started, "my dog is bigger, better, smarter than yours". Let it go! Go live life, as I should be instead of telling someone else to do it. LOL


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

cattdages said:


> Self-righteous much? You are attempting to quash discourse with your condemnation. My mother said we have 2 ears and 1 mouth because we need to listen twice as much to truly understand where others are coming from. I sense no interest in you in understanding me or my beliefs. Very old-testament of you. Christ would've listened.


I like your style.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

gypsie said:


> I guess if you believe in the bible then you will believe that. However not all people believe in the bible. And don't forget that Muslims, Jews and Zorastrians also believe in God. Who will God stand with? Iranians are not bad people. There are good people all over the world who are not Christians. Good people with evil rulers. As a whole most people on this earth want peace, they want to live and let live. They want to agree to disagree. In short, freedom to worship as they please.


I like your style too.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I believe it is to make money. John Oliver did a very good piece on the money-grubbing televangelists this week.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh no Green, say it isn't so! :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> You are good at personal attacks, but you don't know Christ. He would have been saddened by your lack of knowledge of God because it is so available to you in the Bible.


Can you see how your prediction of hell would seem like a personal attack to others?

Can you understand that there are others in the world who do NOT believe the bible or believe in your Jesus?

You seem to be saying that anyone and everyone who does not believe as you do should read the bible and convert. To you that may seem crystal clear and simple, but to those who have firmly held beliefs in other religions, they are very offensive and amount to an attack. They also seem very judgmental.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Our Constitution "supports" no religion. It forbids congress from passing any laws which prohibit the FREE EXERCISE of religion! Sadly, the supreme court doesn't think that the Constitution applies to them.


But Nebs, your right to exercise religion is not absolute. You can't burn people at the stake or engage in human sacrifice or things that hurt others. The Supreme Court is balancing rights that are in conflict with one another. You can still worship as you please and teach your religion to your children, wear a cross, buy a Bible. If those things were punished or forbidden, you would have a case for persecution. I haven't seen any of those things happening or proposed.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

gypsie said:


> People have the right to choose their mates whether one likes it or not. Why judge or criticize if it does not affect you. And why are Christians now persecuted? I don't think so. It is still a big money making machine. Religion is a tool. It's just a fact. Some need it to hang on and justify their existence. Others use it to control. Without it we would probably all be a bunch of heathens. Mine is nature but I respect all others. I find theology interesting. Actually if you study all the religions to me they seem to cross paths here and there. Just be kind. Respect one another's beliefs. Don't argue and try to push your beliefs on another, don't judge, just do your own thing and stay off another's toes, turf or whatever! This is how wars are started, "my dog is bigger, better, smarter than yours". Let it go! Go live life, as I should be instead of telling someone else to do it. LOL


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> But Nebs, your right to exercise religion is not absolute. You can't burn people at the stake or engage in human sacrifice or things that hurt others. The Supreme Court is balancing rights that are in conflict with one another. You can still worship as you please and teach your religion to your children, wear a cross, buy a Bible. If those things were punished or forbidden, you would have a case for persecution. I haven't seen any of those things happening or proposed.


 :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

gypsie said:


> People have the right to choose their mates whether one likes it or not. Why judge or criticize if it does not affect you. And why are Christians now persecuted? I don't think so. It is still a big money making machine. Religion is a tool. It's just a fact. Some need it to hang on and justify their existence. Others use it to control. Without it we would probably all be a bunch of heathens. Mine is nature but I respect all others. I find theology interesting. Actually if you study all the religions to me they seem to cross paths here and there. Just be kind. Respect one another's beliefs. Don't argue and try to push your beliefs on another, don't judge, just do your own thing and stay off another's toes, turf or whatever! This is how wars are started, "my dog is bigger, better, smarter than yours". Let it go! Go live life, as I should be instead of telling someone else to do it. LOL


Do you think that expressing one's beliefs, is pushing them upon another? I don't really think so. I'm interested in what others believe.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Can you see how your prediction of hell would seem like a personal attack to others?
> 
> Can you understand that there are others in the world who do NOT believe the bible or believe in your Jesus?
> 
> ...


If you don't believe in hell, why would you take it as a personal attack? She's stating her beliefs because she's been taught to do so. Go out and spread the word. If you don't believe, it should mean nothing to you.


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## 133163 (May 11, 2015)

gypsie said:


> It seems I remember a quote from the bible from when I was forced into the Baptist religion as a child. Even then I knew I didn't belong in that group. "Judge not lest ye be judged." Is that it?


You are correct. The scripture passage is Matthew 7:1. Jesus is calling for people to stop oppressively controlling others in the name of pastoral concern. Mercy is to be our dominant theme, as it was in Jesus' teaching and practice, but not at the expense of clear opposition to sin. He also teaches in further verses about seeing the dust in another's eye when we have a plank in our own eye. Clean up our own lives before we criticize others around us.

We cannot go wrong in following Jesus and taking Him at His Word. Then the name of our religion does not matter. It is how we follow Jesus and obey His Words that matters.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> We are not to judge one another, but we are to judge the fruits of each individual. We are told repeatedly to judge what we see and what we hear. ie, JESUS said in John 7:24 says, "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgement.". We are told repeatedly to use discernment. Discernment means, "the ability to judge well". So, while we are admonished to not judge each other, we are to judge actions and words.


 :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> But Nebs, your right to exercise religion is not absolute. You can't burn people at the stake or engage in human sacrifice or things that hurt others. The Supreme Court is balancing rights that are in conflict with one another. You can still worship as you please and teach your religion to your children, wear a cross, buy a Bible. If those things were punished or forbidden, you would have a case for persecution. I haven't seen any of those things happening or proposed.


The supreme court does not have the right to "balance rights". They are to follow the Constitution. Obviously, no one has the right to sacrifice others. We were also granted the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. As to the things that you say, that I can still do? Why do you think that anyone should be able to dictate what beliefs I may follow, and what I may not? The First Amendment says, " Congress shall make *NO* law respecting an establishment of religion, *OR* prohibiting the *free exercise* thereof.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> If you don't believe in hell, why would you take it as a personal attack? She's stating her beliefs because she's been taught to do so. Go out and spread the word. If you don't believe, it should mean nothing to you.


It's really very simple. Hell is punishment. We don't punish people unless they have done something wrong or immoral. To tell me I'm going to hell is a clear judgment that I am wrong or have done something wrong.

Expressing one's beliefs? I have no problem with that. It's when the expression includes things like "YOU are going to hell" instead of "I believe what the bible says about hell" are vastly different. Some people can't resist the urge to say directly and in no uncertain terms that I am personally deserving of punishment and will go to hell. It doesn't matter that I don't believe in hell - the judgment is there that I'm BAD or evil in general just for not believing. That is applying one's personal beliefs to other people and it is an attack and it is offensive.

You have never done that, but I know you know who on these threads makes a habit of directing such comments to those who don't believe.


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Do you think that expressing one's beliefs, is pushing them upon another? I don't really think so. I'm interested in what others believe.


I think it depends on ones choice of words, how it is delivered. I don't believe that quoting any book and saying that it is the word of God and all who don't believe it is expressing a belief. I think that is judgmental and self righteous. There are any Christians in my family. I find them to be boring and self righteous. They think I'm going to hell. They don't know. No one knows for sure. You can only have faith in what you choose to believe. I hope we all know someday. I also have many Muslims in my family but none of them are judgemental of any one. They are all tolerant, polite, loving and understanding and never ever try to impose their beliefs on me. Their relationship with God is personal.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The supreme court does not have the right to "balance rights". They are to follow the Constitution. Obviously, no one has the right to sacrifice others. We were also granted the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. As to the things that you say, that I can still do? Why do you think that anyone should be able to dictate what beliefs I may follow, and what I may not? The First Amendment says, " Congress shall make *NO* law respecting an establishment of religion, *OR* prohibiting the *free exercise* thereof.


The Supreme Court has to balance conflicting rights all the time. The general standard is to decide in favor of upholding the rights of the one who would suffer the greater burden.

For example, if your religion and your sincerely held religious beliefs called for chopping off the hand of someone caught stealing, the right of the person caught stealing to be spared such barbaric, immoral and "cruel and unusual" punishment outweighs your right to act on your religious beliefs IN THAT CASE. If you believed that marrying children at 10 or 11 years old was a religious imperative, the right for a child to not be raped and married before they were old enough to give consent would outweigh your right to act on your religious beliefs. You could still BELIEVE it, you just couldn't act on it. The recent case of Hobby Lobby was based on precisely that principle of weight of burden. The Supreme Court decided that a woman's right to certain birth control was LESS than Hobby Lobby's right to act on their religious beliefs.

You DO NOT have the right to discriminate against black people in terms of refusing them service, a mortgage, equal pay or any of their protected rights just because you may think the bible says they are inferior - as was the case in the US not that long ago. Segregation was defended fiercely by fundamentalist Christians in the 50's as a sincerely held religious belief. Too bad. Blacks are equal under the law and you can't refuse them service or a job or a mortgage because they are black.

You may feel gays do not deserve the same protections, but they do. A majority of Americans and the Supreme Court agree that their rights must be protected no matter what the bible says. The harm to them would be greater than the harm some think they suffer by treating them legally and fairly.


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## dogpine (Jun 30, 2014)

DGreen, the religious right just makes me so weary. But you withstand their baiting with clear, coherent argument. Just want you to know that I appreciate your comments and opinions.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> It's really very simple. Hell is punishment. We don't punish people unless they have done something wrong or immoral. To tell me I'm going to hell is a clear judgment that I am wrong or have done something wrong.
> 
> Expressing one's beliefs? I have no problem with that. It's when the expression includes things like "YOU are going to hell" instead of "I believe what the bible says about hell" are vastly different. Some people can't resist the urge to say directly and in no uncertain terms that I am personally deserving of punishment and will go to hell. It doesn't matter that I don't believe in hell - the judgment is there that I'm BAD or evil in general just for not believing. That is applying one's personal beliefs to other people and it is an attack and it is offensive.
> 
> You have never done that, but I know you know who on these threads makes a habit of directing such comments to those who don't believe.


There are plenty of people who tell me I'm wrong, that I'm an idiot or a conspiracy theorist. I know that I'm not, so I just ignore them. I don't let them define me. I'm just suggesting that you do the same. Some people truly believe that they have an obligation to warn you. So be it. You choose to listen or ignore. I wish that I could convince you to believe as I do, but I can't, anymore than you could convince me to believe as you do. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't talk about what we believe. Each of us has a set of beliefs that are based upon our own experiences and knowledge. If somebody wants to call me a conspiracy theorist, I can't stop them. Just as you can't stop someone from telling you you're going to go to hell. We can't let it get to us. We've got to just move on.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

gypsie said:


> I think it depends on ones choice of words, how it is delivered. I don't believe that quoting any book and saying that it is the word of God and all who don't believe it is expressing a belief. I think that is judgmental and self righteous. There are any Christians in my family. I find them to be boring and self righteous. They think I'm going to hell. They don't know. No one knows for sure. You can only have faith in what you choose to believe. I hope we all know someday. I also have many Muslims in my family but none of them are judgemental of any one. They are all tolerant, polite, loving and understanding and never ever try to impose their beliefs on me. Their relationship with God is personal.


Most of us quote from books or articles at one time or another. We do that to evidence what we're saying. A lot of times, people will quote from sources that I don't believe in, but it's their right to do so. We believe in our sources, or we wouldn't use them. *I* believe that the Bible is the word of GOD. I will use it as such, if I'm looking to make a point.

Just because you know some Christians that are boring and self righteous, doesn't mean that all of them are that way. And just because you know some muslims that are tolerant, polite and friendly, doesn't mean that all of them are. There are good and evil within every group. There are those who are vocal, and those who are silent. We are all as different as the stars in the sky. But each is allowed to speak.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

gypsie said:


> I think it depends on ones choice of words, how it is delivered. I don't believe that quoting any book and saying that it is the word of God and all who don't believe it is expressing a belief. I think that is judgmental and self righteous. There are any Christians in my family. I find them to be boring and self righteous. They think I'm going to hell. They don't know. No one knows for sure. You can only have faith in what you choose to believe. I hope we all know someday. I also have many Muslims in my family but none of them are judgemental of any one. They are all tolerant, polite, loving and understanding and never ever try to impose their beliefs on me. Their relationship with God is personal.


One's choice of words and how it is delivered - exactly.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

dogpine said:


> DGreen, the religious right just makes me so weary. But you withstand their baiting with clear, coherent argument. Just want you to know that I appreciate your comments and opinions.


Thank you for your kind words.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> The Supreme Court has to balance conflicting rights all the time. The general standard is to decide in favor of upholding the rights of the one who would suffer the greater burden.
> 
> For example, if your religion and your sincerely held religious beliefs called for chopping off the hand of someone caught stealing, the right of the person caught stealing to be spared such barbaric, immoral and "cruel and unusual" punishment outweighs your right to act on your religious beliefs IN THAT CASE. If you believed that marrying children at 10 or 11 years old was a religious imperative, the right for a child to not be raped and married before they were old enough to give consent would outweigh your right to act on your religious beliefs. You could still BELIEVE it, you just couldn't act on it. The recent case of Hobby Lobby was based on precisely that principle of weight of burden. The Supreme Court decided that a woman's right to certain birth control was LESS than Hobby Lobby's right to act on their religious beliefs.
> 
> ...


Actually, a truer comparison would be if people who believed in cutting off the hands of thieves, insisted that I participate in it. Or if people who believed in child brides, insist that I participate. Your example isn't valid because our representatives passed laws that said we can't cut off people's hands or that people can't marry children. In the case of the persecution of those who will not participate in homosexual marriages, our representatives have never passed a law, stating this. The supreme court is not allowed to legislate. They do not represent us and are not answerable to us. We do not elect them. Remember??? government of the people, by the people and for the people? Only our representatives are allowed to legislate laws. Hence, representation.

Your statement on Hobby Lobby is also incorrect. Neither the supreme court, nor Hobby Lobby did anything that affected a woman's right to birth control. Any woman in this country, can go into any drug store and purchase any drug that is legal and prescribed. Hobby Lobby never forbid its employees from using any form of birth control that they wanted. No woman lost her rights! Hobby Lobby simply refused to pay for abortifacients. My insurance refuses to pay for name brand drugs. They will only pay for a genetic, even if it doesn't work. Have I lost my rights? Should I go before the supreme court? Can I insist that they cover everything I want?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

dogpine said:


> DGreen, the religious right just makes me so weary. But you withstand their baiting with clear, coherent argument. Just want you to know that I appreciate your comments and opinions.


I do as well! It makes for stimulating discussion.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

gypsie said:


> I guess if you believe in the bible then you will believe that. However not all people believe in the bible. And don't forget that Muslims, Jews and Zorastrians also believe in God. Who will God stand with? Iranians are not bad people. There are good people all over the world who are not Christians. Good people with evil rulers. As a whole most people on this earth want peace, they want to live and let live. They want to agree to disagree. In short, freedom to worship as they please.


Zorastrians believed in multiple gods. The religion died out or was absorbed by Islam, which incorporated many pagan gods. Muslims believe in Allah, not God. Islam is based on an oral tradition, not written works. This is why Muslims were required to memorize the Quran, not read it. The Quran as it appears today was written hundreds of years after the oral tradition began and there are many different renditions.

Ever played telephone tag? That's what occurs when an oral tradition changes over time, and it did. It was totally subverted and changed. That does not explain why pedophilia and sanctioned rape of young girls have been an accepted practice of Islam from the beginning until today. That was never a practice of Christianity. The Muslim faith is questionable. The Christian faith is tradition-based and based on multiple written accounts of those who lived during Christ's time on earth or recently after.

If you believe that God sent his only begotten son, Jesus, to save the faithful, what would Mohammed's purpose be? Did Mohammed rise from the dead after 3 days? No, he did not. Do Christians kill those who leave the faith? No, that is not Christ's teaching.

Islam is like Naziism in many ways:

 Both have a doctrine of supremacy.
 Both rule by dictatorship.
 Both believe in world domination.
 Both kill those who disagree with them. 
 Both kill Jews.

Christ requires believers to have discernment. We can therefore judge whether one religion is more "real" than another. The judgment we are denied is the judgment of another's sins to be so grievous that the person will be forever separated from God. In other words, I cannot damn you to Hell. What I can do is caution you that Christ himself told Christians that those who don't acknowledge Him as Lord will never enter Heaven and will be consigned to Hell. Since Christ is God, he can judge. His judgment is one to be feared if you are a nonbeliever. If you are a believer, He has already paid for your sins by willingly dying on the cross for your atonement to God, and you are His.

Those who say there is no Hell are wishful thinkers. They can't prove it. God consigned Satan to Hell in the Old Testament of the Bible. Why should He rescue today's nonbelievers from being consigned there when they die if the deny Him? That was Satan's sin too.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Yes but the quote refers to those who take every word in the Bible as literal truth.



JoyceinNC said:


> It has always been my understanding that stoning someone to death was part of the ancient Jewish law and that Jesus Christ both fulfilled some parts of that law and changed other parts of it. The doctrines of Jesus found in the New Testament are definitely against stoning someone, and you may have noticed that Christians do not offer animal sacrifice. Jesus taught everyone to stop practicing the "eye for an eye" justice of the old law. So, anyone being literal about the New Testament is not going to stone anyone to death. Pray for your enemies, bless those that curse you. You get the idea...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You're right. Thanks for sharing.



JoyceinNC said:


> You're welcome. I thought about sending this to you in a PM, and decided it needed to be a part of this thread.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Actually, a truer comparison would be if people who believed in cutting off the hands of thieves, insisted that I participate in it. Or if people who believed in child brides, insist that I participate. Your example isn't valid because our representatives passed laws that said we can't cut off people's hands or that people can't marry children. In the case of the persecution of those who will not participate in homosexual marriages, our representatives have never passed a law, stating this. The supreme court is not allowed to legislate. They do not represent us and are not answerable to us. We do not elect them. Remember??? government of the people, by the people and for the people? Only our representatives are allowed to legislate laws. Hence, representation.
> 
> Your statement on Hobby Lobby is also incorrect. Neither the supreme court, nor Hobby Lobby did anything that affected a woman's right to birth control. Any woman in this country, can go into any drug store and purchase any drug that is legal and prescribed. Hobby Lobby never forbid its employees from using any form of birth control that they wanted. No woman lost her rights! Hobby Lobby simply refused to pay for abortifacients. My insurance refuses to pay for name brand drugs. They will only pay for a genetic, even if it doesn't work. Have I lost my rights? Should I go before the supreme court? Can I insist that they cover everything I want?


The point is you DO NOT have absolute religious freedom. Discriminating against gays is harmful to them - in the same way refusing service to blacks is harmful to them. You can speak out against it all you want, just as you are free to say (if you actually believed it) that blacks should not be allowed to enter through the front door. The problem comes when you block the door.

Please check the basis of the Supreme Court decision. I'm not going to engage in beating that dead horse again. Hobby Lobby won based on provisions of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA). They had to decide between two conflicting rights. The employee has a right to EQUAL TREATMENT UNDER THE LAW but that was found to be less compelling IN THIS CASE than Hobby Lobby's religious beliefs.

From the Christian Science Monitor:

Instead of analyzing the case from a constitutional perspective, the high court examined whether the ACAs contraception mandate complied with the requirements of a federal law, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA).

Under RFRA, if a law substantially burdens someones religious practice, the government must prove that the burden is necessary to advance a compelling government interest. The government must also prove that its pursuit of that compelling interest is being undertaken by using the least restrictive means.

In its Hobby Lobby ruling, the high court found that the government had failed to demonstrate that the ACAs contraception mandate was the least restrictive means *(meaning least burdensome to religious practice)* of achieving its goal of providing cost-free access to female employees to the full range of contraceptive methods.

Notice the mention of the concept of "burden."


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

I must catch up on this thread..seems to have turned into a total discussion...gay rights?? Birth control... I just want to say one thing before I read the whole thing and not just parts....

Gay marriage..the argument that in Genesis. This was quoted by Christians... .
God made Adam and Eve...well I want to know why Phil Collins wasn't mentioned..he is in Genesis


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Remember the weather rock? Now that's a consistent weather predictor.




orilliastitcher said:


> When it comes to the weather, I generally get out of bed and look out the window. Forecasters do what they can and the weather does whatever in the earth it wants to do. As our son said when he was 3 years old, 'God doesn't have to do what they say.' Like you say, who the heck knows?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put. Thanks for sharing.



cattdages said:


> Yes, I have been in some conversations like this as well. In our country right now it is the non-believers who are under attack, not the believers. Those biblical passages about christians being persecuted are historic. It is certainly not the reality today. I have to wonder in this current political atmosphere, how many candidates who profess christianity are only doing so because to admit to their true beliefs (or lack thereof) would automatically eliminate them from contention. The hypocrisy turns my stomach.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Shdy990 said:


> yes, everyone is master of their own fate


...and captain of their soul.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I assume you've met knit crazy before. You seem to know her well.



LeanaL said:


> No, that just sounds like you're mad that YOU'RE extreme version of Christianity isn't being aloud to dominate over other's beliefs.
> 
> For instance, many Gay people are getting married in their churches, most Christian, so that would be an EXPANSION of religion, not an attack on it.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put. Thanks for sharing.



cattdages said:


> Self-righteous much? You are attempting to quash discourse with your condemnation. My mother said we have 2 ears and 1 mouth because we need to listen twice as much to truly understand where others are coming from. I sense no interest in you in understanding me or my beliefs. Very old-testament of you. Christ would've listened.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

They try to train elephants that way but they have interesting ways of protesting.



gypsie said:


> I've heard that's how they train elephants.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

gypsie said:


> I guess if you believe in the bible then you will believe that. However not all people believe in the bible. And don't forget that Muslims, Jews and Zorastrians also believe in God. Who will God stand with? Iranians are not bad people. There are good people all over the world who are not Christians. Good people with evil rulers. As a whole most people on this earth want peace, they want to live and let live. They want to agree to disagree. In short, freedom to worship as they please.


Oh, you're going to have the Bible thrown at you. Sorry.


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Nebs, anti-discrimination laws exist to protect people, NOT beliefs. You can believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I care, but you cannot legally force me to behave according to your beliefs. 

As an aside, DGreen specified CERTAIN birth control. Her point was valid.

You are not being oppressed when another group gains rights that you have always had.

You are so confused, it's hardly worth talking to you. Just where do you get off? Quit whining about not being able to oppress others with your beliefs. It's not legal, it's not moral.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

.



Knit crazy said:


> You are good at personal attacks, but you don't know Christ. He would have been saddened by your lack of knowledge of God because it is so available to you in the Bible.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It only says that different people have different opinions.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You thought that was awesome? I wonder what that says about you.


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

LeanaL said:


> Back atcha kiddo. God has never been the bigot some male Him out to be and if anyone has been misunderstanding God, it's the bigots that have twisted His Word to justify their homophobia and other bigotries.


Thank you.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> Those who say there is no Hell are wishful thinkers. They can't prove it.


You can't prove there IS a hell. Or a god. Or when the bible was written.

Faith is believing something when there is no evidence of its existence. You are welcome to believe what you want, but you have no proof, either. None. Nada. Zilch.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Her intellect and patience are wondrous to behold.



dogpine said:


> DGreen, the religious right just makes me so weary. But you withstand their baiting with clear, coherent argument. Just want you to know that I appreciate your comments and opinions.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> You can't prove there IS a hell. Or a god. Or when the bible was written.
> 
> Faith is believing something when there is no evidence of its existence. You are welcome to believe what you want, but you have no proof, either. None. Nada. Zilch.


Applause.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

DGreen said:


> You can't prove there IS a hell. Or a god. Or when the bible was written.
> 
> Faith is believing something when there is no evidence of its existence. You are welcome to believe what you want, but you have no proof, either. None. Nada. Zilch.


Appears to me Knit crazy is the wishful thinker here. She is like a child who believes in fairy tales. Children eventually learn what is real and what is fantasy but Knit crazy is still believing in fairy tales.she has nothing else and it must terrify her.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

LeanaL said:


> Back atcha kiddo. God has never been the bigot some male Him out to be and if anyone has been misunderstanding God, it's the bigots that have twisted His Word to justify their homophobia and other bigotries.


You got that right. They pick and chose just like they are grocery shopping and then believe it's the word of God? Please! They must believe God is a fool.


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## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

ouijian said:


> You can believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I care, but you cannot legally force me to behave according to your beliefs.


My youngest sister wrote a short story about the Cheese Monster, who lived in the sea. If we get the two together, we've got the start of a great meal!! :lol: :lol:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

damemary said:


> It only says that different people have different opinions.


I know what's going to happen in September. It's my birthday! :XD:


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

damemary said:


> Oh, you're going to have the Bible thrown at you. Sorry.


You are so right and It was thrown and she and others like her is the reason I left the Baptist religion a long long time ago.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> My youngest sister wrote a short story about the Cheese Monster, who lived in the sea. If we get the two together, we've got the start of a great meal!! :lol: :lol:


It sounds delicious! :thumbup:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

fortunate1 said:


> I must catch up on this thread..seems to have turned into a total discussion...gay rights?? Birth control... I just want to say one thing before I read the whole thing and not just parts....
> 
> Gay marriage..the argument that in Genesis. This was quoted by Christians... .
> God made Adam and Eve...well I want to know why Phil Collins wasn't mentioned..he is in Genesis


You're right - he deserves at least a mention.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

gypsie said:


> You are so right and It was thrown and she and others like her is the reason I left the Baptist religion a long long time ago.


They say they are supposed to spread the "good news" and if they are all about the "good news" they can keep it. They are the most hateful nasty people on the planet and if anyone is going to be in for a big surprise it is going to be them for thinking they are holier than thou. God don't like people who are all puffed up and full of themselves and believe only they are "chosen."


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Zorastrians believed in multiple gods. The religion died out or was absorbed by Islam, which incorporated many pagan gods. Muslims believe in Allah, not God. Islam is based on an oral tradition, not written works. This is why Muslims were required to memorize the Quran, not read it. The Quran as it appears today was written hundreds of years after the oral tradition began and there are many different renditions.
> 
> Ever played telephone tag? That's what occurs when an oral tradition changes over time, and it did. It was totally subverted and changed. That does not explain why pedophilia and sanctioned rape of young girls have been an accepted practice of Islam from the beginning until today. That was never a practice of Christianity. The Muslim faith is questionable. The Christian faith is tradition-based and based on multiple written accounts of those who lived during Christ's time on earth or recently after.
> 
> ...


Well you are wrong in several areas here but it's ok. You seem to be very passionate about this. However I can't resist the opportunity to tell you that personally I believe that Jesus never died. He was in a coma. Wrapping him and putting him in a cave put his body in a cooler temp until he could recover from his wounds. Of course in those days they did not understand that. As adults having grown and matured to understand and decipher bible stories we should now be able to see the scientific side to that story. But many people need to believe miracles because that's easier to comprehend.


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

http://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11902247_953169614748237_8418838133373984982_n.jpg?oh=39eb9a49974f6266c028e00ca6426374&oe=5670A668&dl=1


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> Zorastrians believed in multiple gods. The religion died out or was absorbed by Islam, which incorporated many pagan gods. Muslims believe in Allah, not God. Islam is based on an oral tradition, not written works. This is why Muslims were required to memorize the Quran, not read it. The Quran as it appears today was written hundreds of years after the oral tradition began and there are many different renditions.
> 
> Ever played telephone tag? That's what occurs when an oral tradition changes over time, and it did. It was totally subverted and changed. That does not explain why pedophilia and sanctioned rape of young girls have been an accepted practice of Islam from the beginning until today. That was never a practice of Christianity. The Muslim faith is questionable. The Christian faith is tradition-based and based on multiple written accounts of those who lived during Christ's time on earth or recently after.
> 
> ...


You don't seem to recognize that you are merely expressing an opinion so your posts come across as preaching AND you have stated a lot of opinions that are not correct or factual.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

ouijian said:


> http://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11902247_953169614748237_8418838133373984982_n.jpg?oh=39eb9a49974f6266c028e00ca6426374&oe=5670A668&dl=1


Good one.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

damemary said:


> Applause.


Thanks, Dame.


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

DGreen said:


> You don't seem to recognize that you are merely expressing an opinion so your posts come across as preaching AND you have stated a lot of opinions that are not correct or factual.


👍👍👍👍


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I could not watch the whole thing. It was disgusting!
> 
> I do not believe that it is indicative of anything, other than the fact that evil can be found anywhere. I don't think that anyone could deny that we've got corrupt politicians, corrupt police officers, and corrupt public servants. We've doctors who molest and rape, teachers who molest and rape, people who take advantage of the elderly and lawyers who cheat and steal. No occupation is immune to evil.
> I also believe that most of the churches have become corrupt, being more interested in money than souls. I think that it's a sad sign of what we've become. But even if the majority were evil and corrupt, that wouldn't mean that everyone is. We can tell who people are, by the fruit that they bear.


C'mon, it was brilliant. Oliver started out by praising churches who do good works and made it clear he was not talking about them. He focused on three specific charlatans who are taking advantage of people's faith. THEY are the disgusting ones.

John Oliver uses humor to make some very serious points.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

DGreen said:


> You don't seem to recognize that you are merely expressing an opinion so your posts come across as preaching AND you have stated a lot of opinions that are not correct or factual.


What she posted is so full of huge mistakes. She obviously knows little about the Christian church and even less about Islam. By the way Allah is God and Mohammad is the prophet just as Jesus was a Christian prophet. Christians have murdered thousands of people who refused to convert. Those are just a small fraction of the errors of your beliefs. I could go on all night.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Happy Birthday dear Cheeks.



Cheeky Blighter said:


> I know what's going to happen in September. It's my birthday! :XD:


----------



## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> What she posted is so full of huge mistakes. She obviously knows little about the Christian church and even less about Islam. By the way Allah is God and Mohammad is the prophet just as Jesus was a Christian prophet. Christians have murdered thousands of people who refused to convert. Those are just a small fraction of the errors of your beliefs. I could go on all night.


You are right. I wanted to tell her that but decided not to waste my breath or whatever I'm doing here. I don't know where she gets her facts.


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## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

damemary said:


> Happy Birthday dear Cheeks.


ditto.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put. Bravo. One of my favorite comments of all time.



LeanaL said:


> For instance, lets say there's an earnest held religious belief that a core family is supposed to be together until the children find mates, marry and form their own core family.
> 
> IF, one of the parent's die, it's their religious belief that the remaining parent has a DUTY to kill themselves and the children so that they can immediately be in line to reincarnate together to give it another try.
> 
> ...


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

gypsie said:


> Well you are wrong in several areas here but it's ok. You seem to be very passionate about this. However I can't resist the opportunity to tell you that personally I believe that Jesus never died. He was in a coma. Wrapping him and putting him in a cave put his body in a cooler temp until he could recover from his wounds. Of course in those days they did not understand that. As adults having grown and matured to understand and decipher bible stories we should now be able to see the scientific side to that story. But many people need to believe miracles because that's easier to comprehend.


It is interesting how people change the Bible to fit their own made up religious theories. I trust the Bible, not these fantasies that people today choose because it is convenient. You don't survive what Christ experienced and get up and walk around preaching. Being nailed through your feet would ensure that. Being drained of blood by a spear to the abdomen would ensure death. The body was examined after death and he was not breathing. God can heal anything, even death if He chooses. After all Christ brought Lazarus, his friend, back from death after 4 days in the tomb and the natural decay of the body in a time when embalming did not occur. He was decayed as the Bible detailed, yet Jesus asked God to return him to life, and He did.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

LeanaL said:


> Actually yes, if the generic drug is not what you and your doctor have concluded is the healthiest choice for you, yes, I do think it's wrong for them to _effectively_ be able to deny you the care your doctor has decided is best for you.
> 
> I believe it even used to be against the law. That if the doctor could prove that the generic drug was not working effectively, or at all, then the insurance company was required to pay for the one that did. Yes, the doctor would have to jump through hoops to prove it, but in the end they had to.
> 
> I think that ended with Bush's unpaid for drug plan and I do think it's wrong for some pencil pusher who doesn't know me, to be the dwciding factor in my medical care choices.


It ended with Obamacare. I had the same experience this year. I never had this problem until Obamacare became the law. New restrictions are in place that prevent doctors from successfully appealing them. My Dr. tried twice, and it didn't work. That's the problem with bureaucracies, they put bureaucrats in charge of things they are unqualified to handle and people suffer.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

LeanaL said:


> Unfortunately, you don't let them inform you either.


When you know the information coming at you is wrong, you ignore it. Why do you think you are an expert? By the way, I never entered the Hobby Lobby discussion on this thread, but I did see a comment by you, I think, that stated the court case was about more than abortifant drugs. That's all it was about. Hobby Lobby had no problem with birth control. They only objected on religious grounds to drugs that would abort.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

LeanaL said:


> No, a more accurate version of that analogy is if you were already in the business of cutting off hands (presuming that's legal to do), but started to discriminate as to who's hands were worthy of being cut off based on someone's skin color or gender or sexual orientation etc ...
> 
> You're not qualified to do the job if you can't do the job without breaking the law.


Whoa, this discussion of cutting off limbs is creepy. Are you an ISIS supporter?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> Whoa, this discussion of cutting off limbs is creepy. Are you an ISIS supporter?


Are you unable to understand the idea of "if" and the word analogy?


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## YarnStalker (May 30, 2011)

One of the employees here at work tells me that martial law is going into place in September. He says there's a website where you can follow the whole event and it's going to be on Tuesday, September 15th. He has a sticky note on his wall calendar on that day.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

YarnStalker said:


> One of the employees here at work tells me that martial law is going into place in September. He says there's a website where you can follow the whole event and it's going to be on Tuesday, September 15th. He has a sticky note on his wall calendar on that day.


He's a nutcase.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> It ended with Obamacare. I had the same experience this year. I never had this problem until Obamacare became the law. New restrictions are in place that prevent doctors from successfully appealing them. My Dr. tried twice, and it didn't work. That's the problem with bureaucracies, they put bureaucrats in charge of things they are unqualified to handle and people suffer.


Or maybe you just didn't qualify for the brand-name drug.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

YarnStalker said:


> One of the employees here at work tells me that martial law is going into place in September. He says there's a website where you can follow the whole event and it's going to be on Tuesday, September 15th. He has a sticky note on his wall calendar on that day.


September 15 is when the Jade Helm military exercise will end. Initially, I got worried about it, especially when TX Governor, Greg Abbot, charged his Texas Rangers and his National Guard to watch the military exercise. I read accounts by Texas Rangers that there were trains moving through TX that were empty and had obvious restraints in the cars. Then, I heard nothing until recently. I recently read that the exercise is not being performed using Desert outfitting as you'd expect if the training was for the Middle East. Soldiers were outfitted in Woodland garb and gear. I don't know what to make of that.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

DGreen said:


> He's a nutcase.


If you don't believe it why are you still here worrying about it? Is it always necessary to call names. Just because you don't believe it will happen doesn't mean it is not going to happen. I hope it doesn't but no need to talk down to others.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Are you unable to understand the idea of "if" and the word analogy?


It is creepy. Enough said.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Or maybe you just didn't qualify for the brand-name drug.


I had been taking it for 15 years and my insurance company hadn't changed. Only Obamacare was new to the scenario.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

I have not been following this thread, I opted out early on but tonight I glanced over here. OK, I am more than a little pie eyed at the moment and suddenly it is all making sense. I think that is the answer to the problem, we all have to be more than a little pie eyed in order to make sense of everything that is being posted here. It is just a rehash of things that have been said, or should I say ranted, previously. We all have our belief and everyone is entitled to their beliefs. There is truth in the old Hindu saying "the religion that is right for you at your present stage of development is the religion that is right for you at your present stage of development". Unfortunately many will not understand this and sorry I am not going to enlighten you on its meaning. If you wish you could always study a little Hindu theology, but then methinks that many of you would not be willing to do that - mores the pity.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> If you don't believe it why are you still here worrying about it? Is it always necessary to call names. Just because you don't believe it will happen doesn't mean it is not going to happen. I hope it doesn't but no need to talk down to others.


Oh, I'm not worrying about it. That's the job of people who like to spread conspiracy theories and nonsense. When September 15th comes and goes without anyone declaring martial law, I'll be interested to hear what the next theory is and why Jade Helm was ended without the horrors they predicted.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> I had been taking it for 15 years and my insurance company hadn't changed. Only Obamacare was new to the scenario.


I sincerely hope whatever drug they allow is working well for you, then.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I have not been following this thread, I opted out early on but tonight I glanced over here. OK, I am more than a little pie eyed at the moment and suddenly it is all making sense. I think that is the answer to the problem, we all have to be more than a little pie eyed in order to make sense of everything that is being posted here. It is just a rehash of things that have been said, or should I say ranted, previously. We all have our belief and everyone is entitled to their beliefs. There is truth in the old Hindu saying "the religion that is right for you at your present stage of development is the religion that is right for you at your present stage of development". Unfortunately many will not understand this and sorry I am not going to enlighten you on its meaning. If you wish you could always study a little Hindu theology, but then methinks that many of you would not be willing to do that - mores the pity.


I understand what you mean, Dear Eve.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I sincerely hope whatever drug they allow is working well for you, then.


I got the generic. It is OK, but not what my Dr. wanted me to take. I have not lost any sleep over it, but it is not right in my mind for our government to oversee a physician's treatment of his patient. It's heavy handed and could be disaster pus in some cases.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> The point is you DO NOT have absolute religious freedom. Discriminating against gays is harmful to them - in the same way refusing service to blacks is harmful to them. You can speak out against it all you want, just as you are free to say (if you actually believed it) that blacks should not be allowed to enter through the front door. The problem comes when you block the door.
> 
> Please check the basis of the Supreme Court decision. I'm not going to engage in beating that dead horse again. Hobby Lobby won based on provisions of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA). They had to decide between two conflicting rights. The employee has a right to EQUAL TREATMENT UNDER THE LAW but that was found to be less compelling IN THIS CASE than Hobby Lobby's religious beliefs.
> 
> ...


The point I was trying to make, is that the supreme court ruling was not based upon law. Congress has never passed a law making homosexual marriage legal. We live in a republic, where our elected representatives vote upon our laws. An oligarchy exists when a small group of people make laws, without giving a voice to the people. In this particular case, you agree with the ruling, but what will happen when the supreme court creates law that you don't agree with? What recourse do the people have, against nine individuals who are making laws for the rest of us?

In your comment about the Hobby Lobby ruling, you said, " Instead of analyzing the case from a constitutional perspective...". Let me point out that there is NO constitutional perspective for forcing anyone to buy anything! Nowhere in the Constitution, does it give the government the right to force anyone to buy anything, let alone allow the government to force any individual to buy something for someone else. The Constitution is all about the rights of the individual, it restrains the government. So, nothing in the Constitution would allow the government to force Hobby Lobby to buy insurance for its employees. Nor would the Constitution allow the government to force individuals to pay for other's insurance. The entire ACA is unconstitutional! THATS why they didn't analyze it from a "constitutional perspective"!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> I got the generic. It is OK, but not what my Dr. wanted me to take. I have not lost any sleep over it, but it is not right in my mind for our government to oversee a physician's treatment of his patient. It's heavy handed and could be disaster pus in some cases.


The government is not overseeing anything. Your insurance is still private insurance and being provided by a private company. Yes, there are new rules in effect, but what you may not realize is that your insurance company has been making those decisions for a very long time in terms of what they will authorize and pay for. Insurance companies hire a lot of people to review and contain costs and they always have. I have a good friend who does exactly that and she laughs when she hears people talk about "rationing care" because she's been doing it for years - long, long before the ACA. Why do you think people need pre-authorization for non-crisis surgeries and hospital care? So the insurance company can decide if you really need it or not.

By the way, these are not exactly "bureaucrats." They are trained medical professionals who are well qualified and trained to evaluate such things.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Oh, I'm not worrying about it. That's the job of people who like to spread conspiracy theories and nonsense. When September 15th comes and goes without anyone declaring martial law, I'll be interested to hear what the next theory is and why Jade Helm was ended without the horrors they predicted.


It doesn't do any good to worry about it. I really find it hard to believe our military men would round up Americans. I don't doubt, however, that a revolution is brewing. Many people are sick of Obama's resolutions and lawless actions. It won't happen in my mind unless he does something new and totally outrageous like eliminating American's savings and investments.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

ouijian said:


> Nebs, anti-discrimination laws exist to protect people, NOT beliefs. You can believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I care, but you cannot legally force me to behave according to your beliefs.
> 
> As an aside, DGreen specified CERTAIN birth control. Her point was valid.
> 
> ...


For once, we agree! Substitute "gay marriage" for "Flying Spaghetti Monster" and you're making MY point!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The point I was trying to make, is that the supreme court ruling was not based upon law. Congress has never passed a law making homosexual marriage legal. We live in a republic, where our elected representatives vote upon our laws. An oligarchy exists when a small group of people make laws, without giving a voice to the people. In this particular case, you agree with the ruling, but what will happen when the supreme court creates law that you don't agree with? What recourse do the people have, against nine individuals who are making laws for the rest of us?
> 
> In your comment about the Hobby Lobby ruling, you said, " Instead of analyzing the case from a constitutional perspective...". Let me point out that there is NO constitutional perspective for forcing anyone to buy anything! Nowhere in the Constitution, does it give the government the right to force anyone to buy anything, let alone allow the government to force any individual to buy something for someone else. The Constitution is all about the rights of the individual, it restrains the government. So, nothing in the Constitution would allow the government to force Hobby Lobby to buy insurance for its employees. Nor would the Constitution allow the government to force individuals to pay for other's insurance. The entire ACA is unconstitutional! THATS why they didn't analyze it from a "constitutional perspective"!


The Supreme Court, (which is full of conservatives) and people who are far more educated on constitutional law than you and me, don't agree with you and just decided that the ACA is constitutional.

You are correct there is no law making same-sex marriage legal, but the recent finding was grounded firmly in constitutional law. The Supreme Court does not make law, it judges whether existing laws or practices are constitutional or not. They found that the laws and actions against same sex marriage were unconstitutional and cannot be enforced.

Once again, let's go back to the example of segregation. The laws enforcing segregation and unequal treatment were found to be unconstitutional. People screamed that their "right" to discriminate was being violated then. But the Supreme Court was right then and they are right now.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> C'mon, it was brilliant. Oliver started out by praising churches who do good works and made it clear he was not talking about them. He focused on three specific charlatans who are taking advantage of people's faith. THEY are the disgusting ones.
> 
> John Oliver uses humor to make some very serious points.


I agree with you, that THEY were the disgusting ones. That's what I was referring to. Exposing them was right, but watching them, was disgusting.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> It doesn't do any good to worry about it. I really find it hard to believe our military men would round up Americans. I don't doubt, however, that a revolution is brewing. Many people are sick of Obama's resolutions and lawless actions. It won't happen in my mind unless he does something new and totally outrageous like eliminating American's savings and investments.


The only revolution that is brewing is the one against right-wing, conservative economic policies.

Please explain exactly how Obama would eliminate American's savings and investments. I don't believe he has that power (or any conceivable motivation to do that), but I would love to hear the theory.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

LeanaL said:


> That of course necessitates that the judges actually understand His Word and don't twist it to justify their own bigotries.
> 
> RW Christians more so than most, I find, do not understand Him or His Word and sadly spread hate and ignorance instead of His Love.


It's a good thing that your findings are not important to me.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

DGreen said:


> The government is not overseeing anything. Your insurance is still private insurance and being provided by a private company. Yes, there are new rules in effect, but what you may not realize is that your insurance company has been making those decisions for a very long time in terms of what they will authorize and pay for. Insurance companies hire a lot of people to review and contain costs and they always have. I have a good friend who does exactly that and she laughs when she hears people talk about "rationing care" because she's been doing it for years - long, long before the ACA. Why do you think people need pre-authorization for non-crisis surgeries and hospital care? So the insurance company can decide if you really need it or not.
> .
> 
> By the way, these are not exactly "bureaucrats." They are trained medical professionals who are well qualified and trained to evaluate such things.


Actually, my insurance company would have paid for it, but it's supplemental to Medicare, which refused it based on new government guidelines. Medicare also refused the generic, but my Dr. wrote the prescription for the generic, and I'm paying for it out of pocket because my insurance only supplements what Medicare allows. You made a poor assumption that I know nothing about how insurance works. I began my career as a benefits coordinator. I worked in the benefits area for many years.

Assuming someone is wrong because you don't like what they are saying is clear evidence of your bias. Why do I come away from this discussion with the realization that because you are liberal and our president is liberal and his disastrous changes to healthcare have caused problems, you would support his actions no matter how unpleasant the changes are?


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It's a good thing that your findings are not important to me.


She's unclear what Christianity is. So, I think she makes up her own religious beliefs.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

LeanaL said:


> Actually yes, if the generic drug is not what you and your doctor have concluded is the healthiest choice for you, yes, I do think it's wrong for them to _effectively_ be able to deny you the care your doctor has decided is best for you.
> 
> I believe it even used to be against the law. That if the doctor could prove that the generic drug was not working effectively, or at all, then the insurance company was required to pay for the one that did. Yes, the doctor would have to jump through hoops to prove it, but in the end they had to.
> 
> I think that ended with Bush's unpaid for drug plan and I do think it's wrong for some pencil pusher who doesn't know me, to be the dwciding factor in my medical care choices.


Oh look! We agree about something.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Or maybe you just didn't qualify for the brand-name drug.


Shouldn't one's doctor, be the one to decide that?


----------



## YarnStalker (May 30, 2011)

DGreen said:


> He's a nutcase.


That's what I told him.
He told me to google it. There is a website that's pushing this theory. Right now, I can't remember the name of it. 
Starts with a D I think.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That's reading for understanding. A single word changes everything.



LeanaL said:


> Why did you ignore the word 'conflicting'?
> 
> Don't be ridiculous. Rights conflict and they often have to choose bewteen competing rights. That's what is meant by 'balancing" although that is a bit of a misnomer.
> 
> That is why it managed to get to the supreme court in the first place. Different courts had different interpretations.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Are you unable to understand the idea of "if" and the word analogy?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

One can only hope that they are chattering about it on the Internet and Homeland Security is ready with the padded wagons.



YarnStalker said:


> One of the employees here at work tells me that martial law is going into place in September. He says there's a website where you can follow the whole event and it's going to be on Tuesday, September 15th. He has a sticky note on his wall calendar on that day.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> He's a nutcase.


Well put for those unable to discern for themselves.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> September 15 is when the Jade Helm military exercise will end. Initially, I got worried about it, especially when TX Governor, Greg Abbot, charged his Texas Rangers and his National Guard to watch the military exercise. I read accounts by Texas Rangers that there were trains moving through TX that were empty and had obvious restraints in the cars. Then, I heard nothing until recently. I recently read that the exercise is not being performed using Desert outfitting as you'd expect if the training was for the Middle East. Soldiers were outfitted in Woodland garb and gear. I don't know what to make of that.


Jade Helm was not designed for use in the middle east. They're practicing and getting ready for uprisings here in the US. Tensions are starting to boil. They want to be ready to squash all resistance. We've seen it, in places like Ferguson MO, and we'll be seeing it even more, throughout the country. It won't be just racially based. People all over the country are angry and filled with hate. Soon, it will begin to boil over.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> If you don't believe it why are you still here worrying about it? Is it always necessary to call names. Just because you don't believe it will happen doesn't mean it is not going to happen. I hope it doesn't but no need to talk down to others.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> Actually, my insurance company would have paid for it, but it's supplemental to Medicare, which refused it based on new government guidelines. Medicare also refused the generic, but my Dr. wrote the prescription for the generic, and I'm paying for it out of pocket because my insurance only supplements what Medicare allows. You made a poor assumption that I know nothing about how insurance works. I began my career as a benefits coordinator. I worked in the benefits area for many years.
> 
> Assuming someone is wrong because you don't like what they are saying is clear evidence of your bias. Why do I come away from this discussion with the realization that because you are liberal and our president is liberal and his disastrous changes to healthcare have caused problems, you would support his actions no matter how unpleasant the changes are?


Hold on a minute. YOU said government was making medical decisions for you. I acknowledged there were new rules, but remember, the actual decision-making is made by private insurance companies.

You then call me biased and claim to "realize" what I think instead of the more accurate "assume" what I think. You don't know what I think about the ACA as a whole and you can't possibly know whether I would support Obama no matter what. To quote *your own words,* "Assuming someone is wrong because you don't like what they are saying is clear evidence of your bias."

By the way, supplemental insurance from any company only pays what Medicare allows as supplemental is intended to take care of the deductibles. You said specifically that "'my' insurance company only supplements what Medicare allows" so you may not be as well-versed in these matters as you seem to think.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And isn't that the Insurance companieS' decision, not "Obamacare?" Isn't it time to stop blaming President Obama?



DGreen said:


> Or maybe you just didn't qualify for the brand-name drug.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm sure it gives you something to mull over. Meditate.



Knit crazy said:


> September 15 is when the Jade Helm military exercise will end. Initially, I got worried about it, especially when TX Governor, Greg Abbot, charged his Texas Rangers and his National Guard to watch the military exercise. I read accounts by Texas Rangers that there were trains moving through TX that were empty and had obvious restraints in the cars. Then, I heard nothing until recently. I recently read that the exercise is not being performed using Desert outfitting as you'd expect if the training was for the Middle East. Soldiers were outfitted in Woodland garb and gear. I don't know what to make of that.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

YarnStalker said:


> That's what I told him.
> He told me to google it. There is a website that's pushing this theory. Right now, I can't remember the name of it.
> Starts with a D I think.


Take your pick, there are lots of them. What has been mentioned here is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what some are saying will happen. :roll:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

.



Knit crazy said:


> It doesn't do any good to worry about it. I really find it hard to believe our military men would round up Americans. I don't doubt, however, that a revolution is brewing. Many people are sick of Obama's resolutions and lawless actions. It won't happen in my mind unless he does something new and totally outrageous like eliminating American's savings and investments.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

DGreen said:


> The only revolution that is brewing is the one against right-wing, conservative economic policies.
> 
> Please explain exactly how Obama would eliminate American's savings and investments. I don't believe he has that power (or any conceivable motivation to do that), but I would love to hear the theory.


He doesn't have the power to do anything he does if the Congress has not legislated it. But he keeps doing it, and other than shutting down the government, there is no way to stop him. By the way, shutting down the government happened during Bill Clinton's administration, and the world and nation did not fall apart. Actually it forced Clinton to work with Congress on legislation.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Oh, I'm not worrying about it. That's the job of people who like to spread conspiracy theories and nonsense. When September 15th comes and goes without anyone declaring martial law, I'll be interested to hear what the next theory is and why Jade Helm was ended without the horrors they predicted.


I don't believe that immediately after Jade Helm ends, they're going to put these things into use. But I DO believe that they're getting ready. I believe these things will happen because there is so much vitriol and hatred, that violence will break out all over. Unless we find a leader who can unite the people, it's inevitable that things will boil over.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Jade Helm was not designed for use in the middle east. They're practicing and getting ready for uprisings here in the US. Tensions are starting to boil. They want to be ready to squash all resistance. We've seen it, in places like Ferguson MO, and we'll be seeing it even more, throughout the country. It won't be just racially based. People all over the country are angry and filled with hate. Soon, it will begin to boil over.


That's likely, and actually predicted in the Bible about the end times.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Jade Helm was not designed for use in the middle east. They're practicing and getting ready for uprisings here in the US. Tensions are starting to boil. They want to be ready to squash all resistance. We've seen it, in places like Ferguson MO, and we'll be seeing it even more, throughout the country. It won't be just racially based. People all over the country are angry and filled with hate. Soon, it will begin to boil over.


And your angry rhetoric is the flame bringing it to a boil. Is that what you want? What about your dear grands who have fought so hard for life? Make the world a better place for them.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Hold on a minute. YOU said government was making medical decisions for you. I acknowledged there were new rules, but remember, the actual decision-making is made by private insurance companies.
> 
> You then call me biased and claim to "realize" what I think instead of the more accurate "assume" what I think. You don't know what I think about the ACA as a whole and you can't possibly know whether I would support Obama no matter what. To quote *your own words,* "Assuming someone is wrong because you don't like what they are saying is clear evidence of your bias."
> 
> By the way, supplemental insurance from any company only pays what Medicare allows as supplemental is intended to take care of the deductibles. You said specifically that "'my' insurance company only supplements what Medicare allows" so you may not be as well-versed in these matters as you seem to think.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

damemary said:


> And isn't that the Insurance companieS' decision, not "Obamacare?" Isn't it time to stop blaming President Obama?


I'm not absolutely sure about this, but I do believe that the provisions of the ACA include a requirement that standard treatments and outcomes be analyzed for effectiveness. Those found to be ineffective or those treatments that could be treated more Cost-effectively by other means are no longer being allowed.

This makes excellent sense to me. After all, the biggest and most expensive fraud is committed by DOCTORS. I personally changed doctors recently because the clinic I used was "over-doctoring" me and I was tired of refusing (and arguing about) unneeded treatment and testing. I do believe there is a segment of the population that will believe anything their doctor says and will cough up any amount of money (covered by insurance or out of pocket) to follow medical advice without question. I won't do that.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> That's likely, and actually predicted in the Bible about the end times.


Yeah. So look up how many events have been predicted regarding End Times. None have come true because predicting the future is not possible.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Excellent point. I try not to park my brains outside the waiting room door.



DGreen said:


> I'm not absolutely sure about this, but I do believe that the provisions of the ACA include a requirement that standard treatments and outcomes be analyzed for effectiveness. Those found to be ineffective or those treatments that could be treated more Cost-effectively by other means are no longer being allowed.
> 
> This makes excellent sense to me. After all, the biggest and most expensive fraud is committed by DOCTORS. I personally changed doctors recently because the clinic I used was "over-doctoring" me and I was tired of refusing (and arguing about) unneeded treatment and testing. I do believe there is a segment of the population that will believe anything their doctor says and will cough up any amount of money (covered by insurance or out of pocket) to follow medical advice without question. I won't do that.


----------



## dogpine (Jun 30, 2014)

Knit crazy said:


> It ended with Obamacare. I had the same experience this year. I never had this problem until Obamacare became the law. New restrictions are in place that prevent doctors from successfully appealing them. My Dr. tried twice, and it didn't work. That's the problem with bureaucracies, they put bureaucrats in charge of things they are unqualified to handle and people suffer.


Okay, finally someone is blaming everything on Obamacare. Don't ya love it??


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> He doesn't have the power to do anything he does if the Congress has not legislated it. But he keeps doing it, and other than shutting down the government, there is no way to stop him. By the way, shutting down the government happened during Bill Clinton's administration, and the world and nation did not fall apart. Actually it forced Clinton to work with Congress on legislation.


You have not given any specifics. Do you have any?


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

damemary said:


> And your angry rhetoric is the flame bringing it to a boil. Is that what you want? What about your dear grands who have fought so hard for life? Make the world a better place for them.


There is no anger in Nebs post. You are overreacting because you can't deal with the truth about what is happening.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

dogpine said:


> Okay, finally someone is blaming everything on Obamacare. Don't ya love it??


Yep. Bound to happen sooner or later. Next thing you know Joeysomma will chime in about abortion. As predictable as the sunrise.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> There is no anger in Nebs post. You are overreacting because you can't deal with the truth about what is happening.


WHAT TRUTH?

All you have is theory.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You have not given any specifics. Do you have any?


Are you totally disconnected from current news as well as history? Check the Constitution for the rights of any president. Obama is operating outside the law. Google government shutdowns. It happened when Newt Gingrich was in Congress. It's totally unbelievable that you are such a denier of what is occurring.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> He doesn't have the power to do anything he does if the Congress has not legislated it. But he keeps doing it, and other than shutting down the government, there is no way to stop him. By the way, shutting down the government happened during Bill Clinton's administration, and the world and nation did not fall apart. Actually it forced Clinton to work with Congress on legislation.


Isn't it interesting that the only talk we hear about a government shutdown is defunding Planned Parenthood and perhaps the Iran deal. Let's think about those for a moment.

Obama doesn't fund Planned Parenthood. The threat is nothing more than the republicans saying that if they DON'T GET THEIR WAY they will shut down the government. Has nothing to do with Obama.

As for the Iran deal, the threat is nothing more than the republicans saying that if they DON'T GET THEIR WAY they will shut down the government. Obama is legally and constitutionally authorized to negotiate with foreign countries. Congress can ratify but the republicans are already threatening a shut down if the vote goes against them. This is Obama's fault somehow?

What is that you are saying about Obama having no power unless Congress legislates it? Perhaps you should review the constitution and get back with us on that one.

Shutting down the government hurts the country. Shame on you for making light of it and implying that it is a legitimate political tool.


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Are there any conspiracy theories we haven't touched on yet? Conspiracy theories can be awfully seductive because belief in them relies on fear and cynicism. Seems like a new one pops up every day.

Why would anyone want to be in panic mode all the time?

As Lily Tomlinson said, (sic), I try to be cynical but I just can't keep up.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> The Supreme Court, (which is full of conservatives) and people who are far more educated on constitutional law than you and me, don't agree with you and just decided that the ACA is constitutional.
> 
> You are correct there is no law making same-sex marriage legal, but the recent finding was grounded firmly in constitutional law. The Supreme Court does not make law, it judges whether existing laws or practices are constitutional or not. They found that the laws and actions against same sex marriage were unconstitutional and cannot be enforced.
> 
> Once again, let's go back to the example of segregation. The laws enforcing segregation and unequal treatment were found to be unconstitutional. People screamed that their "right" to discriminate was being violated then. But the Supreme Court was right then and they are right now.


I don't need to be "more educated" to be able to read and understand the Constitution! The Constitution is all about protecting individual rights, so I sure can't figure out how they decided, that it allows the government to force anyone to buy anything! It is absolutely absurd to say that the ACA is constitutional.

Absence of law does not create law. If the court finds a law unconstitutional, the reverse of that law, does not become law. In other words, if the court finds a particular state's statute on gay marriage to be illegal, that doesn't mean that gay marriage becomes legal in that state. The court cannot make gay marriage legal. It does not make laws. The laws are to be made by our representatives, so that we have a say, in how we are governed.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Yeah. So look up how many events have been predicted regarding End Times. None have come true because predicting the future is not possible.


All we know is what has been revealed in the Bible. Much is coming true, the end times are not known by anyone but God. When all God's warnings line up, it will be then. Only when God finds mankind (other than believers) have rejected Him will the final battle be waged of the forces of God against the Antichrist and his followers.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> Are you totally disconnected from current news as well as history? Check the Constitution for the rights of any president. Obama is operating outside the law. Google government shutdowns. It happened when Newt Gingrich was in Congress. It's totally unbelievable that you are such a denier of what is occurring.


You made the claim, so tell us specifically what you are complaining about and we can discuss it. You are making sweeping, generalized claims. So, put your money where your mouth is and defend your statements with specifics. I'm not going to assume what you mean. Tell us.

I didn't deny anything. How do you come up with this?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> All we know is what has been revealed in the Bible. Much is coming true, the end times are not known by anyone but God. When all God's warnings line up, it will be then. Only when God finds mankind (other than believers) have rejected Him will the final battle be waged of the forces of God against the Antichrist and his followers.


All you BELIEVE is what has been revealed in the bible. There is a difference between believing and knowing.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Take your pick, there are lots of them. What has been mentioned here is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what some are saying will happen. :roll:


You must be reading the conspiracy sites, or how would you know that? :XD: :XD: :XD: :lol:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't need to be "more educated" to be able to read and understand the Constitution! The Constitution is all about protecting individual rights, so I sure can't figure out how they decided, that it allows the government to force anyone to buy anything! It is absolutely absurd to say that the ACA is constitutional.
> 
> Absence of law does not create law. If the court finds a law unconstitutional, the reverse of that law, does not become law. In other words, if the court finds a particular state's statute on gay marriage to be illegal, that doesn't mean that gay marriage becomes legal in that state. The court cannot make gay marriage legal. It does not make laws. The laws are to be made by our representatives, so that we have a say, in how we are governed.


I am not following your logic on this.

If your logic holds true, then we can simply do away with the Supreme Court altogether and all precedents are void.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> And your angry rhetoric is the flame bringing it to a boil. Is that what you want? What about your dear grands who have fought so hard for life? Make the world a better place for them.


What rhetoric???


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You must be reading the conspiracy sites, or how would you know that? :XD: :XD: :XD: :lol:


Google is a wonderful tool!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Some people only waste time and (your) energy by deliberately confusing the discussion. Sound familiar?



DGreen said:


> Hold on a minute. YOU said government was making medical decisions for you. I acknowledged there were new rules, but remember, the actual decision-making is made by private insurance companies.
> 
> You then call me biased and claim to "realize" what I think instead of the more accurate "assume" what I think. You don't know what I think about the ACA as a whole and you can't possibly know whether I would support Obama no matter what. To quote *your own words,* "Assuming someone is wrong because you don't like what they are saying is clear evidence of your bias."
> 
> By the way, supplemental insurance from any company only pays what Medicare allows as supplemental is intended to take care of the deductibles. You said specifically that "'my' insurance company only supplements what Medicare allows" so you may not be as well-versed in these matters as you seem to think.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

"he" "they" who, what, where, when and how? Forgive me. I've lost interest.



Knit crazy said:


> He doesn't have the power to do anything he does if the Congress has not legislated it. But he keeps doing it, and other than shutting down the government, there is no way to stop him. By the way, shutting down the government happened during Bill Clinton's administration, and the world and nation did not fall apart. Actually it forced Clinton to work with Congress on legislation.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Jade Helm was not designed for use in the middle east. They're practicing and getting ready for uprisings here in the US. Tensions are starting to boil. They want to be ready to squash all resistance. We've seen it, in places like Ferguson MO, and we'll be seeing it even more, throughout the country. It won't be just racially based. People all over the country are angry and filled with hate. Soon, it will begin to boil over.


Could it possibly be that these exercises are preparing defense personnel for terrorist attacks? That's what I'm putting my money on.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ah. Truth thus far. I gave up trying to predict the future.



DGreen said:


> Yeah. So look up how many events have been predicted regarding End Times. None have come true because predicting the future is not possible.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I'm not absolutely sure about this, but I do believe that the provisions of the ACA include a requirement that standard treatments and outcomes be analyzed for effectiveness. Those found to be ineffective or those treatments that could be treated more Cost-effectively by other means are no longer being allowed.
> 
> This makes excellent sense to me. After all, the biggest and most expensive fraud is committed by DOCTORS. I personally changed doctors recently because the clinic I used was "over-doctoring" me and I was tired of refusing (and arguing about) unneeded treatment and testing. I do believe there is a segment of the population that will believe anything their doctor says and will cough up any amount of money (covered by insurance or out of pocket) to follow medical advice without question. I won't do that.


I experienced the same thing with "over-doctoring". As a cancer survivor, every symptom I presented was met with orders for CT scans, MRIs etc... I too, found another doctor. BUT, when you've found a doctor in whom you're confident, your treatment decisions should be between him/her and you.

IMO, the reason there's so much fraud within the medical system is because the government has allowed the corporations to take over our healthcare system. There used to be restraints put upon hospitals. They were required to act as non profits. No longer! Corporations profit off of our illness. If we don't get the corporations out of our healthcare, we can never fix it. They will bankrupt us, as individuals and as a nation!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

For the sake of silliness, it is amusing.



dogpine said:


> Okay, finally someone is blaming everything on Obamacare. Don't ya love it??


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It will follow as the night the day.....



DGreen said:


> Yep. Bound to happen sooner or later. Next thing you know Joeysomma will chime in about abortion. As predictable as the sunrise.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

.



Knit crazy said:


> Are you totally disconnected from current news as well as history? Check the Constitution for the rights of any president. Obama is operating outside the law. Google government shutdowns. It happened when Newt Gingrich was in Congress. It's totally unbelievable that you are such a denier of what is occurring.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put.



DGreen said:


> Isn't it interesting that the only talk we hear about a government shutdown is defunding Planned Parenthood and perhaps the Iran deal. Let's think about those for a moment.
> 
> Obama doesn't fund Planned Parenthood. The threat is nothing more than the republicans saying that if they DON'T GET THEIR WAY they will shut down the government. Has nothing to do with Obama.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

ouijian said:


> Are there any conspiracy theories we haven't touched on yet? Conspiracy theories can be awfully seductive because belief in them relies on fear and cynicism. Seems like a new one pops up every day.
> 
> Why would anyone want to be in panic mode all the time?
> 
> As Lily Tomlinson said, (sic), I try to be cynical but I just can't keep up.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Isn't it interesting that the only talk we hear about a government shutdown is defunding Planned Parenthood and perhaps the Iran deal. Let's think about those for a moment.
> 
> Obama doesn't fund Planned Parenthood. The threat is nothing more than the republicans saying that if they DON'T GET THEIR WAY they will shut down the government. Has nothing to do with Obama.
> 
> ...


Obama has threatened to veto any bill defunding Planned Parenthood. He has always been a supporter of the group, and funding what they do is abhorrent to most Americans. It is an unnecessary organization since Obamacare funds all the functions Planned Parenthood performs for women's healthcare. Abortion and the selling of baby parts is not to be funded by our tax dollars. That is why Planned Parenthood must be refunded.

Obama has the Constitutional right to make treaties with foreign governments. But they must be ratified by Congress. Obama knew Congress would not ratify such a treaty, so he negotiated a short-term agreement. It is an action like his unlawful resolutions, which is why the Iran deal is not a treaty and could be immediately nullified by the next president. Of course, in the meantime, Obama will have released funds for Iran's terrorism efforts, which will make it harder to fight them if we need to do so. It also binds America to support Iran even if Iran begins a war with Israel.

This is a very bad deal for America. But, there is likely to be a whole room in Obama's post-term library glorifying his ability to make the deal. He gets a legacy. The American people get shafted. That's why the number of Americans supporting the deal are so few.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Or a great children's book.



Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> My youngest sister wrote a short story about the Cheese Monster, who lived in the sea. If we get the two together, we've got the start of a great meal!! :lol: :lol:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

ouijian said:


> Are there any conspiracy theories we haven't touched on yet? Conspiracy theories can be awfully seductive because belief in them relies on fear and cynicism. Seems like a new one pops up every day.
> 
> Why would anyone want to be in panic mode all the time?
> 
> As Lily Tomlinson said, (sic), I try to be cynical but I just can't keep up.


Why do you assume that anyone is in "panic mode"? This thread began with the idea that, if one thought that something was going to happen, would one prepare. Those who take action to prepare for any event, are in the opposite of panic mode. They've taken control of their lives, and prepared mentally and physically. It's those who do not prepare, that will panic, if anything does happen. To be in denial that anything bad could happen, is foolish. Our own government is stockpiling supplies. Do you think they are in panic mode? To prepare, is wise.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I experienced the same thing with "over-doctoring". As a cancer survivor, every symptom I presented was met with orders for CT scans, MRIs etc... I too, found another doctor. BUT, when you've found a doctor in whom you're confident, your treatment decisions should be between him/her and you.
> 
> IMO, the reason there's so much fraud within the medical system is because the government has allowed the corporations to take over our healthcare system. There used to be restraints put upon hospitals. They were required to act as non profits. No longer! Corporations profit off of our illness. If we don't get the corporations out of our healthcare, we can never fix it. They will bankrupt us, as individuals and as a nation!


We are definitely on the same page here.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

OK. Here's two examples. My point is you always seem to see menace and doom and gloom. Lighten up. It's good for your health and you have a bunch of little ones depending on you.

KFN
***************
I don't believe that immediately after Jade Helm ends, they're going to put these things into use. But I DO believe that they're getting ready. I believe these things will happen because there is so much vitriol and hatred, that violence will break out all over. Unless we find a leader who can unite the people, it's inevitable that things will boil over.

KFN
***************
Jade Helm was not designed for use in the middle east. They're practicing and getting ready for uprisings here in the US. Tensions are starting to boil. They want to be ready to squash all resistance. We've seen it, in places like Ferguson MO, and we'll be seeing it even more, throughout the country. It won't be just racially based. People all over the country are angry and filled with hate. Soon, it will begin to boil over.

***************
***************



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What rhetoric???


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Reasonable conclusion.



Wombatnomore said:


> Could it possibly be that these exercises are preparing defense personnel for terrorist attacks? That's what I'm putting my money on.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Could it possibly be that these exercises are preparing defense personnel for terrorist attacks? That's what I'm putting my money on.


I'm sure that they could use some of what they're practicing, to round up terrorists. But I think it's unlikely that they'd be going door to door, rounding up thousands of terrorists. Terrorists usually act alone, or in small groups. So, no. I think they're practicing for dealing with the masses.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> We are definitely on the same page here.


Yay!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MOST Americans agree with Roe vs Wade and the work Planned Parenthood does (far beyond the scope of abortion.)

YOU EXAGGERATE.

"In the broadest sense, Americans' reaction to Roe v. Wade has been consistent for the past few decades. A majority have always opposed overturning the decision, while roughly a third favor doing so. However, in 2006, as the percentage of Americans with no opinion about the status of Roe v. Wade increased, the percentage opposed to overturning it dropped below 60%, and has since remained in that lower range. This year, with a record-high 18% unsure, the percentage wanting it overturned fell below 30% for only the third time since 1989. Gallup

***********


Knit crazy said:


> Obama has threatened to veto any bill defunding Planned Parenthood.
> ********
> 
> He has always been a supporter of the group, and funding what they do is abhorrent to most Americans. It is an unnecessary organization since Obamacare funds all the functions Planned Parenthood performs for women's healthcare. Abortion and the selling of baby parts is not to be funded by our tax dollars. That is why Planned Parenthood must be refunded.
> ...


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> Obama has threatened to veto any bill defunding Planned Parenthood. He has always been a supporter of the group, and funding what they do is abhorrent to most Americans. It is an unnecessary organization since Obamacare funds all the functions Planned Parenthood performs for women's healthcare. Abortion and the selling of baby parts is not to be funded by our tax dollars. That is why Planned Parenthood must be refunded.
> 
> Obama has the Constitutional right to make treaties with foreign governments. But they must be ratified by Congress. Obama knew Congress would not ratify such a treaty, so he negotiated a short-term agreement. It is an action like his unlawful resolutions, which is why the Iran deal is not a treaty and could be immediately nullified by the next president. Of course, in the meantime, Obama will have released funds for Iran's terrorism efforts, which will make it harder to fight them if we need to do so. It also binds America to support Iran even if Iran begins a war with Israel.
> 
> This is a very bad deal for America. But, there is likely to be a whole room in Obama's post-term library glorifying his ability to make the deal. He gets a legacy. The American people get shafted. That's why the number of Americans supporting the deal are so few.


What you have described is politics and the political process. I believe you claimed illegal acts, overreach, etc.

Obama is within his constitutional authority to veto legislation. If congress can muster the votes to override, then you may have a point regarding public opinion about it, but he certainly has the right to veto. Not illegal, not an overreach.

The Iran deal has been sent to Congress for approval. Deciding the best route to achieve a deal is called leadership and is not illegal. If it were, we would be hearing that from the cons. You can detail why YOU think it's a bad deal all day long but you have not proved illegality. Regarding his legacy, your comments are clearly opinion and are irrelevant to the question.

By the way, did you know the republican darling, Ben Carson, has done research using fetal tissue? Where do you think he got it?

Next?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

damemary said:


> MOST Americans agree with Roe vs Wade and the work Planned Parenthood does (far beyond the scope of abortion.)
> 
> YOU EXAGGERATE.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Dame.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Looking at what is happening around you and preparing is better than burying your head in the sand. There are ants and grasshoppers in life. Ants work to prepare for adversity (winter). Grasshoppers skip through life ignoring approaching adversity. You sound like a grasshopper. Beware, the grasshoppers die when adversity strikes. The ants survive.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> OK. Here's two examples. My point is you always seem to see menace and doom and gloom. Lighten up. It's good for your health and you have a bunch of little ones depending on you.
> 
> KFN
> ***************
> ...


I believe that awareness and preparedness are very healthy things. I am a very happy, confident person. I've created a life that revolves around my family, because that's what I want. I will do whatever is within my means, to protect them. That starts with being informed.

Why do you think it's bad to be informed about things? Do you think it's healthy to stay in a little box, never knowing what's going on around you? Do you think that Jade Helm doesn't exist or isn't important, because the government didn't tell you about it? I think it's important to know what's going on. I think it's important to be informed and to prepare, both mentally and physically.

Do you think that people who buy insurance are obsessed with "doom and gloom"? No! They are informed about things that "could" happen, and are preparing ahead of time, to deal with potential disaster. Disasters come in many forms, and preparing for them gives one, peace of mind.

I can thoroughly enjoy my grandchildren, having the knowledge that if something were to happen tomorrow, I'd be able to provide for their needs. That's peace of mind, not doom and gloom! Can you say the same?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Reasonable conclusion.


Please explain why you think this is reasonable. Do you know what Jade Helm is? Or were you just agreeing to be agreeable?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> Looking at what is happening around you and preparing is better than burying your head in the sand. There are ants and grasshoppers in life. Ants work to prepare for adversity (winter). Grasshoppers skip through life ignoring approaching adversity. You sound like a grasshopper. Beware, the grasshoppers die when adversity strikes. The ants survive.


Who sounds like a grasshopper and why? Because not all of us believe martial law is around the corner?


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

damemary said:


> MOST Americans agree with Roe vs Wade and the work Planned Parenthood does (far beyond the scope of abortion.)
> 
> YOU EXAGGERATE.
> 
> ...


*Correction:*

Effective May 2015, Gallup Poll

 29% of Americans believe abortions should be legal under any circumstances
 51% of Americans believe abortion should be legal under certain circumstances (such as rape, incest or the health of the mother)
 19% of Americans believe abortion should be illegal.

Since polling doesn't break out the 51% group by reason-rape or incest or health of mother, the 51% is not defined adequately, but at best it is split 50/50.

Regarding Ben Carson, he explained that 25 years ago he performed tests on brain samples from 2 aborted babies. They were not procured by him. They were fetuses in the 9th and 17th weeks of gestation.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

from Time Magazine

This month, the U.S. military began combat training exercises in several counties in Texas and other western states. Dubbed Jade Helm 15, theyre designed to train soldiers how to operate in civilian areas, as often happens in the Middle East.

But when the government announced that these exercises would take place, a furor erupted, especially in Texas.

Concerns ranged from practical ones (the possibility of the exercises starting wildfires) to more outlandish ones: some called it a smokescreen for the imposition of martial law, while others view the exercises as a means to confiscate guns from citizens, which will set the stage for a military takeover of Texas. end quote

quote extends into paranoia in America.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Please explain why you think this is reasonable. Do you know what Jade Helm is? Or were you just agreeing to be agreeable?


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

damemary said:


> from Time Magazine
> 
> This month, the U.S. military began combat training exercises in several counties in Texas and other western states. Dubbed Jade Helm 15, theyre designed to train soldiers how to operate in civilian areas, as often happens in the Middle East.
> 
> ...


They are wearing Woodland fatigues. This training is not for Middle East warfare.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> MOST Americans agree with Roe vs Wade and the work Planned Parenthood does (far beyond the scope of abortion.)
> 
> YOU EXAGGERATE.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure where you got your figures. I went to Gallup's website. According to them, only 29% of the people polled, believed that abortion should be legal under any circumstance. 19% believed that it should be illegal in any circumstance. 50% of the people polled, considered themselves pro choice. 44% considered themselves, pro life.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

In truth, I believe that a poll can be made to say anything you want it to say. It's all about the questions you ask, and how you ask them. Whoever is paying for the poll, dictates that.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> *Correction:*
> 
> Effective May 2015, Gallup Poll
> 
> ...


You beat me to it. :thumbup:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> *Correction:*
> 
> Effective May 2015, Gallup Poll
> 
> ...


What do statistics have to do with whether Obama acted illegally, as you have claimed? Whether something is legal or not isn't a matter whether there is public support for it.

You are not defending your statements, but are bringing in extraneous, immaterial arguments. You have not provided a single valid point about supposed illegal acts by Obama. If you can't support your claims, it might make sense to stop making them.

As for Carson, he did the research and the fetuses were aborted whether he procured them or not. Evidently he thought the research was important enough to overcome what must have been a moral problem for him at the time. Or maybe, just maybe, there was no moral problem then and he's suddenly "discovered" what he really believes because he's running for office. Just sayin'.


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You thought that was awesome? I wonder what that says about you.


The SHOW was awesome. The way that the show pilloried the televangelists was awesome. The televangelists are reprehensible.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> They are wearing Woodland fatigues. This training is not for Middle East warfare.


What soldiers are wearing is "proof" of what they are training for or proof of imminent declaration of martial law? Or proof of anything, for that matter?

Your evidence is so thin as to be transparent. You need to do better than that.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cattdages said:


> The SHOW was awesome. The way that the show pilloried the televangelists was awesome. The televangelists are reprehensible.


I laughed so hard my sides were aching. John Oliver is good - very good.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Please explain why you think this is reasonable. Do you know what Jade Helm is? Or were you just agreeing to be agreeable?


Because generally the simplest explanation is the most likely. Holds true in many areas of life.


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## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

dogpine said:


> DGreen, the religious right just makes me so weary. But you withstand their baiting with clear, coherent argument. Just want you to know that I appreciate your comments and opinions.


me too!


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## Rebecca O (Aug 18, 2015)

God's Word says NOT TO WORRY but he didn't say not to be prepared for anything....


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## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

fortunate1 said:


> I must catch up on this thread..seems to have turned into a total discussion...gay rights?? Birth control... I just want to say one thing before I read the whole thing and not just parts....
> 
> Gay marriage..the argument that in Genesis. This was quoted by Christians... .
> God made Adam and Eve...well I want to know why Phil Collins wasn't mentioned..he is in Genesis


Nice! Let's remember we have a sense of humor... LOL


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> from Time Magazine
> 
> This month, the U.S. military began combat training exercises in several counties in Texas and other western states. Dubbed Jade Helm 15, theyre designed to train soldiers how to operate in civilian areas, as often happens in the Middle East.
> 
> ...


As I stated, I don't believe that martial law will immediately follow the Jade Helm exercises. But neither do I believe that the Jade Helm exercises were designed for use in the middle east. Military exercises are conducted in "like" conditions and circumstances. There is nothing in Texas (or anywhere else in the US), that would create "like" conditions or circumstances. When the military conducts exercises involving the middle eastern terrain, they do so, on their bases in the middle east. Conducting the exercises using American citizens, would only tell them how Americans would react, not how Iraqis or Syrians would react. I believe that the government is preparing to squash uprisings here in the US. I don't believe that anyone knows if, or when this will take place, only that they're preparing for it.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You beat me to it. :thumbup:


That's OK. You were on it too. You said what I should have said about poll results being directly related to how questions are posed.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cattdages said:


> me too!


I'm getting weary of this, too.

I'm just also quite weary of some people bashing Obama and endlessly saying he's trying to be a dictator, he's doing unlawful things, blah blah blah. They rarely say exactly what those illegal things are and when they do, they often have their facts, logic and conclusions totally wrong.

I truly believe there is hope that at some point challenging these beliefs will lead to the beginning of a thought process that could lead to enlightenment or at least toward more logical and honest debate.

Yeah, I'm crazy.


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

LeanaL said:


> There's no gay person so far that is making a fuss with any church believing what they want.
> 
> And, BTW, IMO, the only ones "flooding the people with wrong" has been the bigots who have misinterpreted the Bible and God himself to justify their bigotry.


You go girl!


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## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

gypsie said:


> Well you are wrong in several areas here but it's ok. You seem to be very passionate about this. However I can't resist the opportunity to tell you that personally I believe that Jesus never died. He was in a coma. Wrapping him and putting him in a cave put his body in a cooler temp until he could recover from his wounds. Of course in those days they did not understand that. As adults having grown and matured to understand and decipher bible stories we should now be able to see the scientific side to that story. But many people need to believe miracles because that's easier to comprehend.


I am in complete agreement with you here. Our society should have matured beyond the need for creation myths and magical thinking. "When I was a child, I thought as a child...the time has come to put away childish thinking." to devilishly misuse a biblical quote. hehe
:XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cattdages said:


> The SHOW was awesome. The way that the show pilloried the televangelists was awesome. The televangelists are reprehensible.


I agree that the televangelists are reprehensible. I hated the show because it was disgusting to watch them! I didn't think it was funny, it made me sick! I believe in exposing evil, but I take no joy from it. The video was disgusting because the people it exposed, were disgusting.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> What soldiers are wearing is "proof" of what they are training for or proof of imminent declaration of martial law? Or proof of anything, for that matter?
> 
> Your evidence is so thin as to be transparent. You need to do better than that.


I'm not saying that anything is imminent. But ask yourself, what are they training for?


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

I did a little more research on the "fetal research" by Ben Carson being bantered about by liberals. First, he is a renowned neurosurgeon. He was doing surgery on a child and removed tumors. Then, he went to his hospital's sample bank, which did contain fetal samples from 2 fetuses. He compared the sample to his patient's tissue sample. That is what has been spun to be "fetal research."


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I laughed so hard my sides were aching. John Oliver is good - very good.


They made me angry. I couldn't laugh about their disgusting behavior. It needed to be said, but I don't think that it was funny.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree that the televangelists are reprehensible. I hated the show because it was disgusting to watch them! I didn't think it was funny, it made me sick! I believe in exposing evil, but I take no joy from it. The video was disgusting because the people it exposed, were disgusting.


Yes, ma'am, they are. We can't let our disgust allow us to turn away from what Oliver exposes. Knowledge is power. Humor often can make points that straight talking can't. Think of good old Will Rogers. He used humor similarly.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm not saying that anything is imminent. But ask yourself, what are they training for?


That's what the military does.


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> I got the generic. It is OK, but not what my Dr. wanted me to take. I have not lost any sleep over it, but it is not right in my mind for our government to oversee a physician's treatment of his patient. It's heavy handed and could be disaster pus in some cases.


It is not the government, it is the insurance company. They made the decision. The insurance industry is quaking in it's boots. They see the ACA as a threat to their astronomical revenues and they will push the blame for their cost-cutting onto that law at every opportunity. The insurance industry is the enemy here, not the government.


----------



## Irish knitter (Mar 29, 2011)

Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> My youngest sister wrote a short story about the Cheese Monster, who lived in the sea. If we get the two together, we've got the start of a great meal!! :lol: :lol:


we would have a complete meal if we add the meatballs....


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> It doesn't do any good to worry about it. I really find it hard to believe our military men would round up Americans. I don't doubt, however, that a revolution is brewing. Many people are sick of Obama's resolutions and lawless actions. It won't happen in my mind unless he does something new and totally outrageous like eliminating American's savings and investments.


And like every other president, good or bad, his power and his time is limited...by design. The pendulum will swing. I'm sure I will feel the way you do now about the next Republican to be in office.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> I did a little more research on the "fetal research" by Ben Carson being bantered about by liberals. First, he is a renowned neurosurgeon. He was doing surgery on a child and removed tumors. Then, he went to his hospital's sample bank, which did contain fetal samples from 2 fetuses. He compared the sample to his patient's tissue sample. That is what has been spun to be "fetal research."


Or possibly Ben Carson Spin. The fetal tissue was available to help a living child in that case. That fetus had to be sliced up to provide brain tissue, right? Was it ghoulish then, or does having it in a tissue bank somehow sanitize how it got there so it is defensible?

So, what about the illegal acts Obama has been guilty of? Still waiting for some evidence, some valid points. Something besides changing the subject, which was to accuse me of not knowing what is going on in the world or words to that effect because I support Obama.

WHERE are your facts, please?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Irish knitter said:


> we would have a complete meal if we add the meatballs....


All I can offer are the meatheads in the republican presidential race.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Or possibly Ben Carson Spin. The fetal tissue was available to help a living child in that case. That fetus had to be sliced up to provide brain tissue, right? Was it ghoulish then, or does having it in a tissue bank somehow sanitize how it got there so it is defensible?
> 
> So, what about the illegal acts Obama has been guilty of? Still waiting for some evidence, some valid points. Something besides changing the subject, which was to accuse me of not knowing what is going on in the world or words to that effect because I support Obama.
> 
> WHERE are your facts, please?


Ever regulation he has put in place is illegal.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> Ever regulation he has put in place is illegal.


Your statement is overly broad and categorically incorrect.

Provide some specifics. ANY specifics.


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## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Obama has threatened to veto any bill defunding Planned Parenthood. He has always been a supporter of the group, and funding what they do is abhorrent to most Americans. It is an unnecessary organization since Obamacare funds all the functions Planned Parenthood performs for women's healthcare. Abortion and the selling of baby parts is not to be funded by our tax dollars. That is why Planned Parenthood must be refunded.


Saying that what Planned Parenthood does is "abhorrent" just shows a complete ignorance of the organization. Planned Parenthood provides birth control based on income. Many low income women rely on Planned Parenthood for birth control. Yes, they have Medicaid, but would still need to pay for birth control which would be very difficult without the help of Planned Parenthood which in many cases provides it for free. Abortion is a choice of last resort for Planned Parenthood also.

Ok, before you go there, just shut down the slut-shaming. It is not only single women of low morals who require birth control.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

cattdages said:


> It is not the government, it is the insurance company. They made the decision. The insurance industry is quaking in it's boots. They see the ACA as a threat to their astronomical revenues and they will push the blame for their cost-cutting onto that law at every opportunity. The insurance industry is the enemy here, not the government.


My insurance company had no input or decision to make in this case unless you count Medicare. Government regulations surround what Medicare covers and allows. Because Medicare decided I could not take any medication for this, my supplemental provider was not obligated to provide coverage. My Dr. appealed to Medicare for both the original prescription and the generic and was denied both times. This Medicate change was a direct result of Obamacare. In order to provide coverage to those not able to afford insurance except Obamacare, the government cut coverages for Medicare recipients.


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## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm sure that they could use some of what they're practicing, to round up terrorists. But I think it's unlikely that they'd be going door to door, rounding up thousands of terrorists. Terrorists usually act alone, or in small groups. So, no. I think they're practicing for dealing with the masses.


Many military maneuvers are practiced here in the US and then deployed where needed all over the world. To decide this one is going to be deployed in the US is just fear-mongering.


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

DGreen said:


> What soldiers are wearing is "proof" of what they are training for or proof of imminent declaration of martial law? Or proof of anything, for that matter?
> 
> Your evidence is so thin as to be transparent. You need to do better than that.


Thank you DGreen. Soldiers dress based on their base of operations, not for a particular exercise. That's just lame.


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree that the televangelists are reprehensible. I hated the show because it was disgusting to watch them! I didn't think it was funny, it made me sick! I believe in exposing evil, but I take no joy from it. The video was disgusting because the people it exposed, were disgusting.


So do you close your eyes? These things need to be exposed.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cattdages said:


> Thank you DGreen. Soldiers dress based on their base of operations, not for a particular exercise. That's just lame.


I have work to do today, so I'm going to remove myself from this conversation. I'm afraid there are those who will grasp ANYTHING to support their beliefs, no matter how flimsy or illogical. We all do it to some degree, but some have elevated it to an art form.

To Knit Crazy, I will be very interested in what you come up with and will check back later. In the meantime, I have some suggested reading for you that you might find helpful. Pay attention particularly to the last paragraph, as you will no doubt recognize some of the topics covered there.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/


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## Aunty M (Jul 7, 2014)

Irish knitter said:


> we would have a complete meal if we add the meatballs....


You sure think about spaghetti and meatballs a lot! :lol: :lol:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I'm getting weary of this, too.
> 
> I'm just also quite weary of some people bashing Obama and endlessly saying he's trying to be a dictator, he's doing unlawful things, blah blah blah. They rarely say exactly what those illegal things are and when they do, they often have their facts, logic and conclusions totally wrong.
> 
> ...


Has challenging YOUR beliefs led to enlightenment on YOUR part? The other side, feels the same way you do! If challenging each other's beliefs led to any kind of enlightenment, we'd all be lit up like Christmas trees.

Our belief systems are light years apart. How do we begin to heal this nation, and begin to work together? I hear both sides accusing the other, of trying to force their beliefs upon others. Why can't we just live and let live? Why do we have to insist that everyone live according to our rules? There can be NO healing for this nation! There are no acceptable compromises to be made. We are not free if we are forced to live by someone else's beliefs and ideals!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Has challenging YOUR beliefs led to enlightenment on YOUR part?


Absolutely. When there is open debate, we all learn, even if only by forcing us to think more critically and to consider why we hold our own beliefs.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Quote=cattdages]I am in complete agreement with you here. Our society should have matured beyond the need for creation myths and magical thinking. "When I was a child, I thought as a child...the time has come to put away childish thinking." to devilishly misuse a biblical quote. hehe
:XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:[/quote]

I'd suppose that you lean toward the "magical thinking", where a big bang occurred, and life just magically happened all at once? Talk about " childish thinking"!
:XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cattdages said:


> Many military maneuvers are practiced here in the US and then deployed where needed all over the world. To decide this one is going to be deployed in the US is just fear-mongering.


In your opinion!

I didn't "decide" that the Jade Helm exercises were going to be used here. I SAID that I "believed" that they were going to be used here. Expressing one's opinion is just that. I am more afraid of anything you say, than what I say. So, I guess that makes you, a fear monger as well.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cattdages said:


> So do you close your eyes? These things need to be exposed.


Maybe you missed the part, where I said that I believe in exposing evil. I just don't find humor in it.


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'd suppose that you lean toward the "magical thinking", where a big bang occurred, and life just magically happened all at once? Talk about " childish thinking"!
> 
> 
> > Um...no one says life happened "all at once". I know this is a dirty word, but life evolved over many tens of thousands of years. No magic required.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm sure that they could use some of what they're practicing, to round up terrorists. But I think it's unlikely that they'd be going door to door, rounding up thousands of terrorists. Terrorists usually act alone, or in small groups. So, no. I think they're practicing for dealing with the masses.


Yes, mass casualties from a bomb blast, aviation disaster, biological attack: the list is endless.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I have work to do today, so I'm going to remove myself from this conversation. I'm afraid there are those who will grasp ANYTHING to support their beliefs, no matter how flimsy or illogical. We all do it to some degree, but some have elevated it to an art form.
> 
> To Knit Crazy, I will be very interested in what you come up with and will check back later. In the meantime, I have some suggested reading for you that you might find helpful. Pay attention particularly to the last paragraph, as you will no doubt recognize some of the topics covered there.
> 
> http://www.logicalfallacies.info/


Bye, Green! I'm dropping out as well. I have a $50 gift card to my LYS. It's calling my name. Ttyl!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> Looking at what is happening around you and preparing is better than burying your head in the sand. There are ants and grasshoppers in life. Ants work to prepare for adversity (winter). Grasshoppers skip through life ignoring approaching adversity. You sound like a grasshopper. *Beware, the grasshoppers die when adversity strikes. The ants survive.*


Did Kung-Fu say that?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Please explain why you think this is reasonable. Do you know what Jade Helm is? Or were you just agreeing to be agreeable?


Come on KFN, it is reasonable to conclude that the Jade Helm exercise is preparing the defense forces for terrorist acts either in the States or on Foreign Soil. Read the following (sarcasm alert):

"Writing for the Dallas Observer, Stephen Young waxed sarcastically about the fears surrounding Jade Helm and said: "Congrats to everyone reading this outside of a FEMA camp based in an abandoned Wal-Mart for making it through the first month of Jade Helm 15 unscathed. For those of you who've been interned, and yet still inexplicably have web access, our prayers are with you. Thanks to the brave actions of Texas Governor Greg Abbott and the members of the Texas Guard he deployed to watch the not-at-all routine military takeover exercises enveloping the rest of the American South and Southwest, our fine state has remained largely unscathed."

http://www.wnd.com/2015/08/jade-helm-critics-mocked-by-media/

I thought the article was funny and it's funny because the suspicion and hysteria about what has been a publicized military exercise is ridiculous.

Australia, the U.S., Japan, New Zealand were involved in a massive military exercise recently and it went very well. Witnessed some pretty impressive fly-overs. It was conducted in early July. We haven't been wiped off the map.

http://www.janes.com/article/52801/japan-new-zealand-debut-in-largest-us-australia-military-exercise


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> All I can offer are the meatheads in the republican presidential race.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Come on KFN, it is reasonable to conclude that the Jade Helm exercise is preparing the defense forces for terrorist acts either in the States or on Foreign Soil. Read the following (sarcasm alert):
> 
> "Writing for the Dallas Observer, Stephen Young waxed sarcastically about the fears surrounding Jade Helm and said: "Congrats to everyone reading this outside of a FEMA camp based in an abandoned Wal-Mart for making it through the first month of Jade Helm 15 unscathed. For those of you who've been interned, and yet still inexplicably have web access, our prayers are with you. Thanks to the brave actions of Texas Governor Greg Abbott and the members of the Texas Guard he deployed to watch the not-at-all routine military takeover exercises enveloping the rest of the American South and Southwest, our fine state has remained largely unscathed."
> 
> ...


Emergency preparedness.

What we did NOT have after Katrina. Lots more to fear from natural disasters than the dreaded martial law Texas is worried about.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I have work to do today, so I'm going to remove myself from this conversation. I'm afraid there are those who will grasp ANYTHING to support their beliefs, no matter how flimsy or illogical. We all do it to some degree, but some have elevated it to an art form.
> 
> To Knit Crazy, I will be very interested in what you come up with and will check back later. In the meantime, I have some suggested reading for you that you might find helpful. Pay attention particularly to the last paragraph, as you will no doubt recognize some of the topics covered there.
> 
> http://www.logicalfallacies.info/


I am not interested in your reading assignments, especially those written by liberal sources. I am also not yours to command. Do your own research and read more widely than you do.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> I am not interested in your reading assignments, especially those written by liberal sources. I am also not yours to command. Do your own research and read more widely than you do.


Had you looked at the site, it is not remotely liberal, though it is educational.

It has to do with being able to recognize logical fallacies in debates, a skill you might want to brush up on. I don't care whether you choose to educate yourself or not.

I commanded nothing. Touchy, touchy.

How about the specific examples I asked about (which are fundamental to an intelligent discussion)? You still have not supported your claims with anything except further vague accusations about Obama and lawlessness. If you make a claim, it is commonly understood that the burden of proof is on you to defend it. I refuse to guess about what you mean so you'll have to tell us or go back to D&P and talk with your intellectual peers because you apparently have no pertinent comments to add to this discussion.

This not an attack, by the way. Simple truth.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

damemary said:


> Happy Birthday dear Cheeks.


Thanks, damemary!


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> ditto.


Thank you!


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> I got the generic. It is OK, but not what my Dr. wanted me to take. I have not lost any sleep over it, but it is not right in my mind for our government to oversee a physician's treatment of his patient. It's heavy handed and could be disaster pus in some cases.


<sigh> Not this strawman again. the government isn't overseeing your healthcare--the insurance company you contract with is. The insurance companies have _always_ had the final say on your healthcare and have had the final say on what drugs you get and what treatments you do or don't get. The Affordable Care Act has nothing o do with it.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

LeanaL said:


> Unfortunately, you don't let them inform you either.


That's for sure!


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> <sigh> Not this strawman again. the government isn't overseeing your healthcare--the insurance company you contract with is. The insurance companies have _always_ had the final say on your healthcare and have had the final say on what drugs you get and what treatments you do or don't get. The Affordable Care Act has nothing o do with it.


You are so confused. Medicare is government healthcare. The Department of Health sets guidines for coverage. Those guidelines changed to accommodate offering more people Obamacare coverage. I don't have coverage under Obamacare, but Obamacare negatively affected my coverage under Medicare.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Did Kung-Fu say that?


Actually, it was an Aesop's Fable, but it is also referenced in the Bible. You must have missed it.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Whoa, this discussion of cutting off limbs is creepy. Are you an ISIS supporter?


Our dear oil buddies in Saudi Arabia cut off limbs as well as Iran, Yemen, Nigeria, Somalia and Sudan. They were doing this before you ever heard of ISIS. Do you find that creepy? We still have the death penalty in many states and use the gas chamber, firing squad, electrocution and lethal injection. We are just as barbaric as the rest of them or is it OK with you that we kill people here too?


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## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Actually, it was an Aesop's Fable, but it is also referenced in the Bible. You must have missed it.


Deliberately misinterpreting a joke to call someone stupid? Really? That is just mean and sarcastic.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> You are so confused. Medicare is government healthcare. The Department of Health sets guidines for coverage. Those guidelines changed to accommodate offering more people Obamacare coverage. I don't have coverage under Obamacare, but Obamacare negatively affected my coverage under Medicare.


You are making that up. If what you say is true than print your source so we can read it. If anything you are now better off than you were before ACA and all insurance plans have to comply by these regulations not just plans purchased through ACA.

Here is what Web MD has to say.
Health Care Reform:Health Insurance & Affordable Care Act
1Insurance Basics2Understand Costs3Your State Marketplace4Find
Your Plan

How Health Reform Affects Medicare
The Affordable Care Act is bringing changes to your Medicare coverage.
You Can Get More Care at No Additional Cost
Many types of preventive care are now available to you at no additional cost. Preventive care can help you stay well and avoid diseases.
With any type of Medicare coverage, you can have a wellness exam every year without having to pay anything at the time of your visit. You and your doctor will map out a plan to keep you healthy.
You can get most screening services without additional cost. Screenings are medical tests to find illnesses early, when they're easier to treat. For instance, a mammogram is a screening for breast cancer. A colonoscopy checks for colon cancer. You can also be checked for diabetes, high blood pressure, and high cholesterol.
You can get help to kick the habit. If you're a smoker, you can get counseling to help you quit.
You'll Save Money on Medicine
The donut hole is a gap in your drug coverage under Medicare Part D. That hole is shrinking. Here's how it works.
Right now, each Part D plan covers up to $2,960 for medicines each year. That amount includes what you pay and what your insurance pays. Once you reach that limit, your prescription benefits go down. That's when you're in the gap -- the donut hole.
For the time you're in the donut hole, your copay for medicines rises to 45% for brand-name prescriptions and 65% for generics. You pay this percentage on your medicines until you have spent $4,550.
Each year from now until 2020, the percentage you pay while in the donut hole will go down.
Starting in 2020, you'll pay no more than 25% for all prescriptions.
Something to Watch: Medicare Advantage Plans
If you have a Medicare Advantage plan, which is also known as Medicare Part C, from a private company, your coverage may change from year to year.
The Affordable Care Act says that your insurance company will get a bonus if they improve your Part C plan, and many have succeeded in doing so.
However, many Medicare Advantage plans are also reducing the size of their provider and pharmacy networks. Or they may increase what you pay in copays or coinsurance. Thats why its important to shop for plans each year during the Annual Election Period. Given on-going changes to plan details, its a good idea to make sure the coverage you have now continues to be the best one for you.
Have a High-Income? Premiums Follow the Same Rules
If your income this year is less than $85,000 ($170,000 for a couple), you'll pay $104.90 a month for Medicare Part B. This includes your Part D drug coverage. This will be the case for 95% of everyone who uses Medicare.
People with higher incomes will pay more for coverage.
For instance, if you earn $85,000 to $107,000 a year ($170,000 to $214,000 for a couple), you'll pay $146.90 for your Part B coverage. In this income range, youll also pay an additional $12.10 above the cost of your plans premium for Part D each month. If you earn more, you'll pay more.
Return to Multi-Page View
View Article Sources 
Reviewed by Lisa Zamosky on November 06, 2014
© 2014 WebMD, LLC. All rights reserved.
WebMD Medical Reference


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Thanks, damemary!


Happy Birthday!!! Hope it's wonderful. Eat lots of cake.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> You are making that up. If what you say is true than print your source so we can read it. Otherwise it's just another one of your fantasies.
> 
> Here is what Web MD has to say.
> Health Care Reform:Health Insurance & Affordable Care Act
> ...


Excellent information, Cheeks.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Our dear oil buddies in Saudi Arabia cut off limbs as well as Iran, Yemen, Nigeria, Somalia and Sudan. They were doing this before you ever heard of ISIS. Do you find that creepy? We still have the death penalty in many states and use the gas chamber, firing squad, electrocution and lethal injection. We are just as barbaric as the rest of them or is it OK with you that we kill people here too?


Those countries also engage in female genital mutilation, a horror for millions of women around the world. It's a LIFETIME of suffering and can lead to death. What does our government say about it?

Pretty much nothing.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Happy Birthday!!! Hope it's wonderful. Eat lots of cake.


Thanks for the birthday wishes even though my birthday isn't until September. I posted that the "something big" that is supposed to happen in September is my birthday. :XD:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Thanks for the birthday wishes even though my birthday isn't until September. I posted that the "something big" that is supposed to happen in September is my birthday. :XD:


Well, I'll be on the road in September, so I'm glad I took care of it now.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Those countries also engage in female genital mutilation, a horror for millions of women around the world. It's a LIFETIME of suffering and can lead to death. What does our government say about it?
> 
> Pretty much nothing.


As is so convenient we pick and chose what countries practice barbaric torture and death by what they have to offer us. They are also state sponsors of terrorists. Saudi Arabia always gets a pass on such matters. The House of Saud and the Bush family are literally kissing cousins in the oil cartel and that says it all. And the right thought it was horrible when Obama bowed to an Arab leader. Pleaseeeeee.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Another thread gone to the dogs.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Another thread gone to the dogs.


So, do you have a specific complaint, Bumps?


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

DGreen said:


> So, do you have a specific complaint, Bumps?


Yes, what is your complaint? I don't see any problems here with this discussion. Everyone is expressing their opinions. You are the first poster that has made such a claim. Perhaps you don't recognize a discussion when you see one. Will you explain yourself so we can understand?


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Those countries also engage in female genital mutilation, a horror for millions of women around the world. It's a LIFETIME of suffering and can lead to death. What does our government say about it?
> 
> Pretty much nothing.


I was very surprised (and horrified) to learn how widespread this practice is. If you are interested in hearing more about this, this is an arresting personal story.

http://www.ted.com/talks/khadija_gbla_my_mother_s_strange_definition_of_empowerment


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cattdages said:


> I was very surprised (and horrified) to learn how widespread this practice is. If you are interested in hearing more about this, this is an arresting personal story.
> 
> http://www.ted.com/talks/khadija_gbla_my_mother_s_strange_definition_of_empowerment


Very powerful. Thanks for the link.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Come on KFN, it is reasonable to conclude that the Jade Helm exercise is preparing the defense forces for terrorist acts either in the States or on Foreign Soil. Read the following (sarcasm alert):
> 
> "Writing for the Dallas Observer, Stephen Young waxed sarcastically about the fears surrounding Jade Helm and said: "Congrats to everyone reading this outside of a FEMA camp based in an abandoned Wal-Mart for making it through the first month of Jade Helm 15 unscathed. For those of you who've been interned, and yet still inexplicably have web access, our prayers are with you. Thanks to the brave actions of Texas Governor Greg Abbott and the members of the Texas Guard he deployed to watch the not-at-all routine military takeover exercises enveloping the rest of the American South and Southwest, our fine state has remained largely unscathed."
> 
> ...


I think you should learn more about Jade Helm.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Emergency preparedness.
> 
> What we did NOT have after Katrina. Lots more to fear from natural disasters than the dreaded martial law Texas is worried about.


I agree! But if you're prepared for natural disasters, you're prepared for "the dreaded martial law". :XD: The point is, to be prepared.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Those countries also engage in female genital mutilation, a horror for millions of women around the world. It's a LIFETIME of suffering and can lead to death. What does our government say about it?
> 
> Pretty much nothing.


This doesn't really have anything to do with anything, but IMO, our government only cares about keeping the oil flowing. The countries that don't cooperate, are the ones we go to war with.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Thank you!


I'm waiting til your birthday arrives. I'll be watching for your name to show up on the list.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> You are so confused. Medicare is government healthcare. The Department of Health sets guidines for coverage. Those guidelines changed to accommodate offering more people Obamacare coverage. I don't have coverage under Obamacare, but Obamacare negatively affected my coverage under Medicare.


You didn't mention anything about Medicare in your post that I replied to. In any case, with Medicare, while there are tiers of drugs, with preference for less expensive generic brands, your doctor has the option to apply for an exemption in your case--with a good argument having a good chance to get one.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> This doesn't really have anything to do with anything, but IMO, our government only cares about keeping the oil flowing. The countries that don't cooperate, are the ones we go to war with.


Los of truth in that statement.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> You are making that up. If what you say is true than print your source so we can read it. If anything you are now better off than you were before ACA and all insurance plans have to comply by these regulations not just plans purchased through ACA.
> 
> Here is what Web MD has to say.
> Health Care Reform:Health Insurance & Affordable Care Act
> ...


I'm going to make a statement that no one will like. But I'm going to make it anyway.

When the ACA was released and people started reading it, many said that expensive treatments would not be given to the elderly. People said that a panel would decide who got treatment and who got palliative care (pain relief etc). The idea was mocked and anyone who spoke of it, was scorned. But I have to say, that I'm seeing it happen! My own mother walked into the hospital to have a port put in for chemo. She never walked out! She was doped into unconsciousness, and eventually died. My best friend's father was undergoing treatment for cancer. He had fallen and cut his hand. He had a skin graft and then was doped up until he lost consciousness, and died. My father in law had a stroke. He was doped up until he lost consciousness, and died! A friend of the family had exploratory surgery. They found cancer. She was doped up until she lost consciousness, and died! ALL of these, took place in different hospitals, in different cities! I think the plan is to cut healthcare costs, by killing inconvenient people.

You can call me nuts! You can call me a conspiracy theorist! You can call me anything you like! But you'd better be paying attention!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> As is so convenient we pick and chose what countries practice barbaric torture and death by what they have to offer us. They are also state sponsors of terrorists. Saudi Arabia always gets a pass on such matters. The House of Saud and the Bush family are literally kissing cousins in the oil cartel and that says it all. And the right thought it was horrible when Obama bowed to an Arab leader. Pleaseeeeee.


I agree with your statement, but I also agree that "it was horrible when obama bowed to an Arab leader".


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Another thread gone to the dogs.


The thread could just die out, or we can use it, to delve into the issues. I don't mind when a thread evolves, I just hope that we can keep it civil.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Shouldn't people have a right to know instead of blindly believing in the goodness of all preachers?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree that the televangelists are reprehensible. I hated the show because it was disgusting to watch them! I didn't think it was funny, it made me sick! I believe in exposing evil, but I take no joy from it. The video was disgusting because the people it exposed, were disgusting.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

A dusty training day in available fatigues? Just wondering.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm not saying that anything is imminent. But ask yourself, what are they training for?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Reasonable and well put.



cattdages said:


> It is not the government, it is the insurance company. They made the decision. The insurance industry is quaking in it's boots. They see the ACA as a threat to their astronomical revenues and they will push the blame for their cost-cutting onto that law at every opportunity. The insurance industry is the enemy here, not the government.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> All I can offer are the meatheads in the republican presidential race.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: !


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sez who? You making wild statements out of the GOP talking points? Not good enough.



Knit crazy said:


> Ever regulation he has put in place is illegal.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Bravo.



cattdages said:


> Saying that what Planned Parenthood does is "abhorrent" just shows a complete ignorance of the organization. Planned Parenthood provides birth control based on income. Many low income women rely on Planned Parenthood for birth control. Yes, they have Medicaid, but would still need to pay for birth control which would be very difficult without the help of Planned Parenthood which in many cases provides it for free. Abortion is a choice of last resort for Planned Parenthood also.
> 
> Ok, before you go there, just shut down the slut-shaming. It is not only single women of low morals who require birth control.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put.



cattdages said:


> Many military maneuvers are practiced here in the US and then deployed where needed all over the world. To decide this one is going to be deployed in the US is just fear-mongering.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm going to make a statement that no one will like. But I'm going to make it anyway.
> 
> When the ACA was released and people started reading it, many said that expensive treatments would not be given to the elderly. People said that a panel would decide who got treatment and who got palliative care (pain relief etc). The idea was mocked and anyone who spoke of it, was scorned. But I have to say, that I'm seeing it happen! My own mother walked into the hospital to have a port put in for chemo. She never walked out! She was doped into unconsciousness, and eventually died. My best friend's father was undergoing treatment for cancer. He had fallen and cut his hand. He had a skin graft and then was doped up until he lost consciousness, and died. My father in law had a stroke. He was doped up until he lost consciousness, and died! A friend of the family had exploratory surgery. They found cancer. She was doped up until she lost consciousness, and died! ALL of these, took place in different hospitals, in different cities! I think the plan is to cut healthcare costs, by killing inconvenient people.
> 
> You can call me nuts! You can call me a conspiracy theorist! You can call me anything you like! But you'd better be paying attention!


I would say you are a person who has seen a lot of tragedy and I'm sorry to hear of so many losses.

I don't believe for one second this was deliberate. To address the "conspiracy" element, it defies reason to think that there are some secret panels of doctors or bureaucrats or whatever directing killings. First of all, one would have to recruit such people for EVERY hospital and care facility in the country. That would be a huge obstacle in and of itself. Then you would have to have co-conspirators to carry out the instructions - nurses, doctors, therapists, etc. They would have to be trusted with pretty horrific directions and I doubt that many dedicated health-care professionals, committed to saving lives, would go along with it, especially silently. I discount the theory on the basis of plain common sense and human behavior. The conspiracy would have to be unimaginably complex and huge. Government could never accomplish something like that and keep it quiet and efficient.

PEOPLE WOULD TALK, and people would BALK.

They always talk. This far into the ACA, we would not be hearing stories of unusual or even suspicious coincidences, we would be hearing confessions and whistleblowers. We are not.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> I am not interested in your reading assignments, especially those written by liberal sources. I am also not yours to command. Do your own research and read more widely than you do.


Right back at you Toots.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We're getting ready for the celebration....MUCH better than silly arguments.



Cheeky Blighter said:


> Thanks for the birthday wishes even though my birthday isn't until September. I posted that the "something big" that is supposed to happen in September is my birthday. :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And here you are.



Country Bumpkins said:


> Another thread gone to the dogs.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Nope. Just saying hi to her doggie pals.



DGreen said:


> So, do you have a specific complaint, Bumps?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cattdages said:


> I was very surprised (and horrified) to learn how widespread this practice is. If you are interested in hearing more about this, this is an arresting personal story.
> 
> http://www.ted.com/talks/khadija_gbla_my_mother_s_strange_definition_of_empowerment


Thank you for sharing this? I was familiar with FGM, but was not aware that it was being done in all of our countries. I thought that it was something that happened somewhere else. But, I guess it makes sense that they'd bring it with them. Sad!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Meaning 'you should think just like me?'



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think you should learn more about Jade Helm.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Shouldn't people have a right to know instead of blindly believing in the goodness of all preachers?


Yes! People should know! But instead of laughing, we should be angry! We shouldn't treat it lightly.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

How about when GW kissed on the lips and held hands with one?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree with your statement, but I also agree that "it was horrible when obama bowed to an Arab leader".


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I would say you are a person who has seen a lot of tragedy and I'm sorry to hear of so many losses.
> 
> I don't believe for one second this was deliberate. To address the "conspiracy" element, it defies reason to think that there are some secret panels of doctors or bureaucrats or whatever directing killings. First of all, one would have to recruit such people for EVERY hospital and care facility in the country. That would be a huge obstacle in and of itself. Then you would have to have co-conspirators to carry out the instructions - nurses, doctors, therapists, etc. They would have to be trusted with pretty horrific directions and I doubt that many dedicated health-care professionals, committed to saving lives, would go along with it, especially silently. I discount the theory on the basis of plain common sense and human behavior. The conspiracy would have to be unimaginably complex and huge. Government could never accomplish something like that and keep it quiet and efficient.
> 
> ...


I disagree that you'd have to have conspirators in every hospital. All you'd need, are standard procedures. You only have to convince people that they're doing a favor, to those who would die anyway. The UK had such a standard procedure. It was called The Liverpool Care Pathway. The pathway was simply a way to hasten death, for those who were determined to be terminally ill. Sometimes, it wasn't even a physician who made the determination. It was a horrific thing to do! And it happened in the UK!

Please read about it. This is merely a Wiki article. I've read many articles that got into more specifics, but this article will show you, that if it can happen in the UK, it can happen here!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Care_Pathway_for_the_Dying_Patient


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Meaning 'you should think just like me?'


Meaning, that if you knew more about Jade Helm, you'd realize that it is tailored to detaining large numbers of people, not one or two terrorists. The exercise takes place in American cities, not mock ups of the middle east.

Do you think that it's unbelievable that our country would prepare for civil unrest? Why are you so resistant to the idea?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> How about when GW kissed on the lips and held hands with one?


I believe that I said, that I agreed with the statement. I saw the picture. I was disgusted. I said that I agreed. What more can I say to clarify my position?


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

OK, I'm far, far, far from being a fan of Bush, but the photos don't bother me. He was merely doing what the people there do. I don't understand the uproar when a president or official observes a social norm in another country. Not so much in Bush's case--he didn't get all that much criticism--but regarding Obama the right has melt-downs: OMG he bowed! OMG! OMG! He is disgracing the US!! OMG! OMG! OMG!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

cattdages said:


> Deliberately misinterpreting a joke to call someone stupid? Really? That is just mean and sarcastic.


Trust me, her reaction is mild. Thank you for your support!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> As is so convenient we pick and chose what countries practice barbaric torture and death by what they have to offer us. They are also state sponsors of terrorists. Saudi Arabia always gets a pass on such matters. The House of Saud and the Bush family are literally kissing cousins in the oil cartel and that says it all. And the right thought it was horrible when Obama bowed to an Arab leader. Pleaseeeeee.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: Where do you find these photos Cheeky? Or do you have state of the art photo shop software?


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Oh I can't believe that.


When did that happen?


Did you see it rain ?


What is the problem?

You need to look at both sides


Did any one think that maybe this topic has fallen off the

deep end?

My gosh I can't wait for Sept. One thing for sure it will

be fall and the weather may be cooler.


I am not going to discuss this any more.


Lifes to short and Sept is only a few weeks away.


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

KFN wrote:

I'm going to make a statement that no one will like. But I'm going to make it anyway. 

When the ACA was released and people started reading it, many said that expensive treatments would not be given to the elderly. People said that a panel would decide who got treatment and who got palliative care (pain relief etc). The idea was mocked and anyone who spoke of it, was scorned. But I have to say, that I'm seeing it happen! My own mother walked into the hospital to have a port put in for chemo. She never walked out! She was doped into unconsciousness, and eventually died. My best friend's father was undergoing treatment for cancer. He had fallen and cut his hand. He had a skin graft and then was doped up until he lost consciousness, and died. My father in law had a stroke. He was doped up until he lost consciousness, and died! A friend of the family had exploratory surgery. They found cancer. She was doped up until she lost consciousness, and died! ALL of these, took place in different hospitals, in different cities! I think the plan is to cut healthcare costs, by killing inconvenient people.

You can call me nuts! You can call me a conspiracy theorist! You can call me anything you like! But you'd better be paying attention!

...

I KNEW IT! We have another conspiracy theory. I bet there are even more out there.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I disagree that you'd have to have conspirators in every hospital. All you'd need, are standard procedures. You only have to convince people that they're doing a favor, to those who would die anyway. The UK had such a standard procedure. It was called The Liverpool Care Pathway. The pathway was simply a way to hasten death, for those who were determined to be terminally ill. Sometimes, it wasn't even a physician who made the determination. It was a horrific thing to do! And it happened in the UK!
> 
> Please read about it. This is merely a Wiki article. I've read many articles that got into more specifics, but this article will show you, that if it can happen in the UK, it can happen here!
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Care_Pathway_for_the_Dying_Patient


What you described is not even close to Care Pathway, which was for those in the last days or hours before death. You probably know that for terminally ill patients, there are clinical signs and symptoms that are consistent and recognized as stages of death. I don't think Care Pathway was a wise thing, but it hardly amounts to actually killing people because they are not worth saving or treating.

I watched my mother go through those stages of dying and was sleeping on a cot at her feet when she died. The silence woke me, because I had been hearing the "death rattle" for days before her brain told her body to stop breathing. EVERY milestone in the shutdown of her body had been predicted by Hospice, down to how long they thought she would remain in a coma before finally letting go. Doctors and caregivers KNOW when death is near, which may have been the basis for Care Pathways.

Dedicated caregivers would NOT go along. I will never, ever believe they could be hoodwinked or fooled into setting aside their ethics and actively kill someone who could be treated.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: Where do you find these photos Cheeky? Or do you have state of the art photo shop software?


I am very resourceful Wombat but Bush had no qualms about when in Saudi do as the Saudis do. Men kiss and hold hands and no one thinks anything of it. The reason I even posted the photos was because of the hysterics some had when Obama "bowed" to others and made no fuss over what Bush did. Obama frequently bows to people, famous ones and not famous ones so what is the big deal. I like it. Several other Presidents have "bowed" to others as a sign of respect and if anyone wants to go on about Obama's bowing I will post those photos too. I guess kissing and hand holding is acceptable but absolutely no head nods. :XD:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> Oh I can't believe that.
> 
> When did that happen?
> 
> ...


What in the world are you talking about, Yarnie?

I agree September will be welcome.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> What you described is not even close to Care Pathway, which was for those in the last days or hours before death. You probably know that for terminally ill patients, there are clinical signs and symptoms that are consistent and recognized as stages of death. I don't think Care Pathway was a wise thing, but it hardly amounts to actually killing people because they are not worth saving or treating.
> 
> I watched my mother go through those stages of dying and was sleeping on a cot at her feet when she died. The silence woke me, because I had been hearing the "death rattle" for days before her brain told her body to stop breathing. EVERY milestone in the shutdown of her body had been predicted by Hospice, down to how long they thought she would remain in a coma before finally letting go. Doctors and caregivers KNOW when death is near, which may have been the basis for Care Pathways.
> 
> Dedicated caregivers would NOT go along. I will never, ever believe they could be hoodwinked or fooled into setting aside their ethics and actively kill someone who could be treated.


I can tell that you didn't bother to read the article.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I can tell that you didn't bother to read the article.


Why do you say that?


----------



## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

Irish knitter said:


> we would have a complete meal if we add the meatballs....


I like garlic bread, salad and cottage cheese with my spaghetti.. :lol:


----------



## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Thanks for the birthday wishes even though my birthday isn't until September. I posted that the "something big" that is supposed to happen in September is my birthday. :XD:


LOL... well if something big DOES happen, and it wipes out internet access, then you'll know you have many well-wishers


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

LeanaL said:


> No, it happened before Obamacare.
> 
> I had it happen to me about 9 years ago. And I had some of the best insurance available through Disney Co at the time.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: One payer system.


----------



## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

Seems apropos just now: 





And, since I'm feeling pretty good tonight... :


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> This doesn't really have anything to do with anything, but IMO, our government only cares about keeping the oil flowing. The countries that don't cooperate, are the ones we go to war with.


Sad but true!


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm going to make a statement that no one will like. But I'm going to make it anyway.
> 
> When the ACA was released and people started reading it, many said that expensive treatments would not be given to the elderly. People said that a panel would decide who got treatment and who got palliative care (pain relief etc). The idea was mocked and anyone who spoke of it, was scorned. But I have to say, that I'm seeing it happen! My own mother walked into the hospital to have a port put in for chemo. She never walked out! She was doped into unconsciousness, and eventually died. My best friend's father was undergoing treatment for cancer. He had fallen and cut his hand. He had a skin graft and then was doped up until he lost consciousness, and died. My father in law had a stroke. He was doped up until he lost consciousness, and died! A friend of the family had exploratory surgery. They found cancer. She was doped up until she lost consciousness, and died! ALL of these, took place in different hospitals, in different cities! I think the plan is to cut healthcare costs, by killing inconvenient people.
> 
> You can call me nuts! You can call me a conspiracy theorist! You can call me anything you like! But you'd better be paying attention!


Care for the elderly is atrocious. It was before the ACA and it continues to be. ANY senior patient who is the least bit fractious is drugged to make them more compliant. When my father became ill with cancer (this was before the ACA) the doctor said "In elderly patients we call this failure to thrive, there's nothing we can do unless he tries". Then when he went to the hospital another doctor discovered the cancer and he was dead within 2 months. Nothing AT ALL to do with the ACA, simply the way senior healthcare is provided.


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I don't believe for one second this was deliberate. To address the "conspiracy" element...
> 
> PEOPLE WOULD TALK, and people would BALK.
> 
> They always talk. This far into the ACA, we would not be hearing stories of unusual or even suspicious coincidences, we would be hearing confessions and whistleblowers. We are not.


This is a great point, and one I make all the time when talk of conspiracies comes up. People, in general, can't keep their mouths shut. This is why I don't believe most conspiracy theories - people would talk, someone would talk.


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you for sharing this? I was familiar with FGM, but was not aware that it was being done in all of our countries. I thought that it was something that happened somewhere else. But, I guess it makes sense that they'd bring it with them. Sad!


That is why it is important to fight for women's rights all over the world. I am concerned by your use of the "THEY" language. WE allow this to happen. WE turn a blind eye to women's issues worldwide. Putting it off on THEY gives us a pass, and that will not advance us or save one woman.

All over the world, when women have been given control of their reproduction by the availability of birth control they have improved their own situation. That is why I get so passionate about Planned Parenthood. Nothing shackles a woman like a baby, and nothing makes a woman more reliant on a man who may subjugate her than a baby, or 5.


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> OK, I'm far, far, far from being a fan of Bush, but the photos don't bother me. He was merely doing what the people there do. I don't understand the uproar when a president or official observes a social norm in another country. Not so much in Bush's case--he didn't get all that much criticism--but regarding Obama the right has melt-downs: OMG he bowed! OMG! OMG! He is disgracing the US!! OMG! OMG! OMG!


Well said.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Why do you say that?


Because, you'd have had more to say, if you'd read it.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cattdages said:


> That is why it is important to fight for women's rights all over the world. I am concerned by your use of the "THEY" language. WE allow this to happen. WE turn a blind eye to women's issues worldwide. Putting it off on THEY gives us a pass, and that will not advance us or save one woman.
> 
> All over the world, when women have been given control of their reproduction by the availability of birth control they have improved their own situation. That is why I get so passionate about Planned Parenthood. Nothing shackles a woman like a baby, and nothing makes a woman more reliant on a man who may subjugate her than a baby, or 5.


Well, WE didn't bring FGM to our countries! And WE can't do anything about it. It's already illegal, and that doesn't stop them from doing it to their daughters. So, what do you think that WE can do about it, other than speaking against it, which WE are already doing?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Oops! dp


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## SherrySherry (Mar 1, 2014)

One absolute fact in this life is that whatever you search for, you will find. If you want to find examples of elderly patients dying, you will find them. If you look for red cars, you will find them. Conspiracy theorists can always find proof of their theories.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

cattdages said:


> This is a great point, and one I make all the time when talk of conspiracies comes up. People, in general, can't keep their mouths shut. This is why I don't believe most conspiracy theories - people would talk, someone would talk.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Think about it. People blab and they can't plan. No conspiracy is more likely.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You're right. Some people find conspiracy theories exciting and interesting. Some folks use logic and probabilities and find them silly and boring.

I'm a logic person. I'm sorry if I rain on your parade, but that's the way I am.



SherrySherry said:


> One absolute fact in this life is that whatever you search for, you will find. If you want to find examples of elderly patients dying, you will find them. If you look for red cars, you will find them. Conspiracy theorists can always find proof of their theories.


----------



## SherrySherry (Mar 1, 2014)

"prove" not "proof"


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> I like garlic bread, salad and cottage cheese with my spaghetti.. :lol:


I like my spaghetti in the form of a flying monster.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> LOL... well if something big DOES happen, and it wipes out internet access, then you'll know you have many well-wishers


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Well, WE didn't bring FGM to our countries! And WE can't do anything about it. It's already illegal, and that doesn't stop them from doing it to their daughters. So, what do you think that WE can do about it, other than speaking against it, which WE are already doing?


Same thing we do when we talk about polar bears and climate change and fracking and saving the whales. Awareness gives people information that eventually comes to bear on their votes, their charitable giving, and public opinion. Our leaders are not talking about the horrors of FGM so we need to bring it to their attention and keep it in the public eye. Almost everything I have heard about it has come from WOMEN. In the current political climate women are degraded and denigrated; Chris Christie is against free birth control for women because he thinks the only reason they want it is because they can't control their libidos. We don't have equal pay - yet. Bills in congress that would protect women from violence are voted down. People want to defund crucial health care for millions of women based on lies and fabricated outrage over dead fetuses that they have nothing to do with. The men who run the country (and even some women) don't give a rip about women or the atrocities they suffer not only here but around the world.

So we need to get in their faces about these things.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Same thing we do when we talk about polar bears and climate change and fracking and saving the whales. Awareness gives people information that eventually comes to bear on their votes, their charitable giving, and public opinion. Our leaders are not talking about the horrors of FGM so we need to bring it to their attention and keep it in the public eye. Almost everything I have heard about it has come from WOMEN. In the current political climate women are degraded and denigrated; Chris Christie is against free birth control for women because he thinks the only reason they want it is because they can't control their libidos. We don't have equal pay - yet. Bills in congress that would protect women from violence are voted down. People want to defund crucial health care for millions of women based on lies and fabricated outrage over dead fetuses that they have nothing to do with. The men who run the country (and even some women) don't give a rip about women or the atrocities they suffer not only here but around the world.
> 
> So we need to get in their faces about these things.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: If we don't tell them, they will do as they wish. I'm not comfortable with that.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SnoopyDoop said:



> Here's the problem though with anti-gummint conservatives though. They hate government, everybody and everything sucks about the government, so they spend all their energy in anti-gummint rhetoric, essentially sabotaging the government .... and then they complain about ineffective government, clueless to the fact that it's their sabotage that creates the inefficiencies.


They also hate paying taxes and they hate progressives. What they LOVE is repeating the false narratives about why they have "high" taxes (a myth) and how the progressive agenda is a prescription for disaster (another myth).


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Granted they are a big part of the problem. But there's many of us ready to be part of the solution. Onward.



SnoopyDoop said:


> Here's the problem though with anti-gummint conservatives though. They hate government, everybody and everything sucks about the government, so they spend all their energy in anti-gummint rhetoric, essentially sabotaging the government .... and then they complain about ineffective government, clueless to the fact that it's their sabotage that creates the inefficiencies.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I have had some of the same thoughts. I wish our discussions led somewhere new instead of same old.



SnoopyDoop said:


> Nancy, I will call you all of those things because that's what you are. There is literally something wrong with you mentally.
> 
> You're FIL was an old man. He died because it was his time, not because of Obamacare.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SnoopyDoop said:


> It's sad that you even have to explain the obvious unreasonableness of this proposed conspiracy. She says "pay attention" but she hasn't even thought about the logistics or the absolute control of the medical community the conspirators would have to have to pull such a thing off.
> 
> Not to mention, you'd have to have a large group of anesthesiologists (thousands and thousands) and other medical personnel, that would have no moral objections to killing people off and could keep these secrets.
> 
> I'm sorry, but it's beyond silly to posit these sorts of theories, it's a combination of desperately pathetic and infuriatingly @$$holic.


 :thumbup: My conclusions are the same.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Count me in! :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Listen, no one said that programs can't get out of hand like the one in the UK you mentioned.
> 
> But there was never a moment that the people in the UK didn't know that this palliative care program was in existence. Although some reports say that some families were not informed when their family members were put on those pathways,,other reports, even from anti-euthanasia groups said *that was not true.*
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: What she says is blunt, but I think it's true. KFN, I hope you'll be alright.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SnoopyDoop said:


> So well stated again.
> 
> My actual concern is that the government is NOT allowing for procedures to help end my life as I approach those end stages and am suffering horribly.


As I understand, hospice helps family by seeing that the patient is comfortable as possible. Except for states that have passed end of life laws, that's all we have.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

I've signed a 'Medical Power of Attorney.' It clearly states my wishes--no machines, etc. Has to be signed and witnessed. You don't ever know what will happen but at least my family will know what my wishes are. :thumbup:


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

I've signed a 'Medical Power of Attorney.' It clearly states my wishes--no machines, etc. Has to be signed and witnessed. You don't ever know what will happen but at least my family will know what my wishes are. :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I hear you.



SnoopyDoop said:


> Yes, for instance, and I don't want to have to lay in bed for days with a death rattle. If I've reached the point of a death rattle ... let me go .. HELP me go.
> 
> It makes me seriously want to move to Washington, Oregon or Vermont.


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I like my spaghetti in the form of a flying monster.


Yes and he can fondle you with his noodle! :mrgreen:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I am very resourceful Wombat but Bush had no qualms about when in Saudi do as the Saudis do. Men kiss and hold hands and no one thinks anything of it. The reason I even posted the photos was because of the hysterics some had when Obama "bowed" to others and made no fuss over what Bush did. Obama frequently bows to people, famous ones and not famous ones so what is the big deal. I like it. Several other Presidents have "bowed" to others as a sign of respect and if anyone wants to go on about Obama's bowing I will post those photos too. I guess kissing and hand holding is acceptable but absolutely no head nods. :XD:


President Obama is a respectful man. A rare breed indeed.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Yes, for instance, and I don't want to have to lay in bed for days with a death rattle. If I've reached the point of a death rattle ... let me go .. HELP me go.
> 
> It makes me seriously want to move to Washington, Oregon or Vermont.


As disturbing as it was to hear my mother gurgling, she was in a coma and unaware of any distress.

I will be forever grateful for the devoted nurses and doctors with Hospice for all they did for my mother and our family. When my mother was diagnosed, it was already too late to treat her cancer, particularly because she was already in Stage 4 and was seriously nutritionally compromised. Her regular doc wanted to continue testing, doing biopsies, whatever he could, to specifically identify her cancer and to treat it in spite of the fact that x-rays showed her body was riddled with tumors in her lungs, major organs, bones and brain. She would have none of it because she knew what treatment would mean in terms of the quality of her life - especially knowing the odds were not with her. She refused to undergo any more intrusive and painful testing and turned her mind to coming to terms with her death, in spending time with her family, and tying up loose ends so she could be at peace. Hospice talked to her, they talked to me, they talked to my daughter (a registered nurse) and they told us they would push pain meds to a lethal dose if that's what it took to be sure she was not in pain. She agreed to that plan. It never came to that, but it was a comfort to know she would not suffer.

I'm talking about this because some might consider it "giving up" and that we were willing to push palliative care over some imaginary line to euthanasia. More people should be given the option to die as my mother did - in her own home, being cared for by loved ones. She had no tubes, no IVs, no interference except to relieve discomfort and pain.

Sara Palin called this "killing Grandma." I should be so lucky as to die as peacefully as my mother did.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Absolutely. It's all about claiming they don't want the government "doing things" for them, sabotaging efforts to do those things, then complain that the government isn't doing what they want enough or well enough.


Oh, they want government to "do things" for them, just not for others. You know, those horrible "takers" who think they're "entitled."


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Few groups in our history benefited more from governmental programs and "hand outs" than have the generation that made up the Teabaggers.
> 
> They sure as hell "got theirs", and now that they've got their Social Security and medicare for the rest of their life, now their suddenly worries about the debt and budget.


In the meantime, they deny, deny, deny the true threats. I'm talking about the ones that will make our planet uninhabitable. Which threat is worse - debt for our grandchildren or no planet to live on?

I believe climate change is an imminent threat to our existence and I'm becoming increasingly worried about fracking. I helped put together a video for our local Amnesty International group on the subject and we have not yet seen the horrors it is bound to generate. The toxic chemicals used in fracking are often held in unsecured and unsustainable holding ponds that are already wreaking havoc when they leak. They will destroy our aquifers and they can't be cleaned up. Faucets that catch fire are NOTHING compared to the long-range dangers of fracking, since their effect is cumulative and will take another 10 or more years to become evident. Those who call the natural gas recovered by fracking "clean" energy are lying through their teeth. It's not clean. In the meantime, the conservatives rage against renewable, green sources as too expensive. Hah. They haven't SEEN expensive yet.

I'm very disappointed that Obama has not been stronger on the environment and has waffled on the Keystone Pipeline, another epic disaster. Hillary has refused to answer when asked about her position on the Keystone XL. I'm also disappointed in her and wholeheartedly support Bernie, who understands the dangers we face as humans and as a country.


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## gma11331 (Oct 18, 2011)

I am 84 and recently had a brief hospital stay due to a fall resulting in a pubic bone fracture. I can assure you they didn't try to kill me off. They made me try to walk when I didn't want to, monitored my pain meds regularly reducing when appropriate. Treated my Vit D deficiency and prescribed calcium daily to help KEEP me more fit!! I thought that remarkable at my age!


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

gma11331 said:


> I am 84 and recently had a brief hospital stay due to a fall resulting in a pubic bone fracture. I can assure you they didn't try to kill me off. They made me try to walk when I didn't want to, monitored my pain meds regularly reducing when appropriate. Treated my Vit D deficiency and prescribed calcium daily to help KEEP me more fit!! I thought that remarkable at my age!


You go girl! You are the remarkable one.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Nancy, I will call you all of those things because that's what you are. There is literally something wrong with you mentally.
> 
> You're FIL was an old man. He died because it was his time, not because of Obamacare.
> 
> ...


Lisa, you're full of it! You think you know everything about everything, but you don't! I posted a link to an article about the Liverpool Care Pathway. I'm sure you didn't bother to read it, because you think you already know everything. But you should!

In the United Kingdom, they created the pathway to comfort and hasten death in those they deemed too old or too sick. The pathway called for treatment to be withdrawn, food and water withheld, and drugs to make them unconscious. Doctors and nurses in the United Kingdom were literally killing their patients and the hospitals got payments for every patient they put on the pathway. Initially, the intent was not to kill them, but that's what was happening, and not in just one hospital. It was happening all over. Finally, an investigation into the pathway was carried out and it was admitted that hospitals were killing people, particularly the elderly. Following the investigation, the Liverpool Care Pathway was discontinued. So, if this could happen in the UK, a civilized country similar to our own, it could happen here. And one doesn't have to be crazy to assume that it could.

I NEVER said that there was a secret anesthesioly group! Those were YOUR words! So by YOUR definition, YOU'RE the one who's got something wrong mentally! YOU'RE the one who needs help!

Here's some links where you might learn something, but I'm sure you won't bother, because you think you already know everything.

Here's an article from the BBC. This woman dislocated her shoulder, then contracted pneumonia in the hospital. She was in perfect health otherwise, and was alert. They were trying to starve her to death, until someone realized that she wouldn't be dying unless they started her. 
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-23698071

Here's an article about how they killed an old woman. Her daughter was a long time nurse and had not been aware of the Liverpool Care Pathway. She was appalled that they killed her mother.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2220409/My-diary-mums-awful-death-Liverpool-Care-Pathway-Nurses-heart-rending-account-doctors-decided-mother-pathway-death.html

Note the section on "terminal sedation" in this article.
http://www.humanlifereview.com/liverpool-care-pathway-the-road-to-backdoor-euthanasia/

If you don't like my sources, Google it yourself! There are 260,000 hits!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I have had some of the same thoughts. I wish our discussions led somewhere new instead of same old.


Why don't you learn something new! Then our discussions could lead somewhere new!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Listen, no one said that programs can't get out of hand like the one in the UK you mentioned.
> 
> But there was never a moment that the people in the UK didn't know that this palliative care program was in existence. Although some reports say that some families were not informed when their family members were put on those pathways,,other reports, even from anti-euthanasia groups said *that was not true.*
> 
> ...


You're wrong! A LOT of people in the UK for not know what the Liverpool Pathway was or that it existed. In the one article, the daughter of the victim, was a long term nurse, and she had not heard of it.

I never claimed that it was happening here, but questioned whether or not it was. You don't get to change my words! Everything you've said here is YOUR OPINION! Why don't you label it as such!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> :thumbup: What she says is blunt, but I think it's true. KFN, I hope you'll be alright.


Your concern is so touching! 
Why don't you educate yourself and then, tell me I'm crazy!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Quite frankly, I think you read more into that article than was actually there.


I've read MANY articles on the subject. I just posted one, to show people what was happening. I would expect that anyone who doubted it, would do a little research on their own. But I guess that's too much to ask of this group!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> As disturbing as it was to hear my mother gurgling, she was in a coma and unaware of any distress.
> 
> I will be forever grateful for the devoted nurses and doctors with Hospice for all they did for my mother and our family. When my mother was diagnosed, it was already too late to treat her cancer, particularly because she was already in Stage 4 and was seriously nutritionally compromised. Her regular doc wanted to continue testing, doing biopsies, whatever he could, to specifically identify her cancer and to treat it in spite of the fact that x-rays showed her body was riddled with tumors in her lungs, major organs, bones and brain. She would have none of it because she knew what treatment would mean in terms of the quality of her life - especially knowing the odds were not with her. She refused to undergo any more intrusive and painful testing and turned her mind to coming to terms with her death, in spending time with her family, and tying up loose ends so she could be at peace. Hospice talked to her, they talked to me, they talked to my daughter (a registered nurse) and they told us they would push pain meds to a lethal dose if that's what it took to be sure she was not in pain. She agreed to that plan. It never came to that, but it was a comfort to know she would not suffer.
> 
> ...


The difference between what you're talking about and what I'm talking about is CHOICE! YOUR mother had a choice!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Thanks so much for sharing that story. It is comforting to heat how wonderful the hospice was and I believe the UK program that was mentioned was just an effort to organize palliative care.
> 
> I also agree that the Sarah Palin, "Death Panel" and "killing grandma" rhetoric is so ignorant of what people actually need and go through during end of life care.
> 
> ...


It WAS an "effort to organize palliative care". But it ended up going way beyond that. And it wasn't a couple of isolated incidents either.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Well, I looked up the Liverpool Care Pathway. It was, in fact, a plan put in place for _hospices_ caring for terminal patients, and the patients themselves had to put in an agreement for it. The problem came in when it was extended to regular hospitals. Inexperienced residents who weren't trained in the plan misunderstood it and used it wrongly. After an investigation by the UK government the LCP was discontinued.

It was NEVER set up to "hasten death in those they deemed too old or too sick."


----------



## 133163 (May 11, 2015)

Dish Cloth Diva said:


> I have been reading quite a few articles about "something big" is supped to happen in America, come September. I have friends that have been stocking up on food, water, powdered milk and all the necessities for several days, including can openers, wood and cash... etc..
> 
> Have any of you done this? You can PM me if you would like...thank you...I haven't yet myself. I do plan on getting a few things...wine, chips, chocolate, yarn, tea..and toilet paper of course... In all seriousness, I am planning on doing a big shopping trip in the next couple of weeks...


Has anyone else noticed how far the postings have veered from the beginning comments?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Few groups in our history benefited more from governmental programs and "hand outs" than have the generation that made up the Teabaggers.
> 
> They sure as hell "got theirs", and now that they've got their Social Security and medicare for the rest of their life, now their suddenly worries about the debt and budget.


Maybe YOU'VE received the hand outs! But you can only speak for yourself!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> In the meantime, they deny, deny, deny the true threats. I'm talking about the ones that will make our planet uninhabitable. Which threat is worse - debt for our grandchildren or no planet to live on?
> 
> I believe climate change is an imminent threat to our existence and I'm becoming increasingly worried about fracking. I helped put together a video for our local Amnesty International group on the subject and we have not yet seen the horrors it is bound to generate. The toxic chemicals used in fracking are often held in unsecured and unsustainable holding ponds that are already wreaking havoc when they leak. They will destroy our aquifers and they can't be cleaned up. Faucets that catch fire are NOTHING compared to the long-range dangers of fracking, since their effect is cumulative and will take another 10 or more years to become evident. Those who call the natural gas recovered by fracking "clean" energy are lying through their teeth. It's not clean. In the meantime, the conservatives rage against renewable, green sources as too expensive. Hah. They haven't SEEN expensive yet.
> 
> I'm very disappointed that Obama has not been stronger on the environment and has waffled on the Keystone Pipeline, another epic disaster. Hillary has refused to answer when asked about her position on the Keystone XL. I'm also disappointed in her and wholeheartedly support Bernie, who understands the dangers we face as humans and as a country.


When she was secretary of state, she was a strong supporter of the pipeline. Now that she's a candidate??? Who knows???


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> Well, I looked up the Liverpool Care Pathway. It was, in fact, a plan put in place for _hospices_ caring for terminal patients, and the patients themselves had to put in an agreement for it. The problem came in when it was extended to regular hospitals. Inexperienced residents who weren't trained in the plan misunderstood it and used it wrongly. After an investigation by the UK government the LCP was discontinued.
> 
> It was NEVER set up to "hasten death in those they deemed too old or too sick."


Why do you think they stop giving food and water, if not to hasten death?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

orilliastitcher said:


> Has anyone else noticed how far the postings have veered from the beginning comments?


Yes. They always do.


----------



## Dish Cloth Diva (Mar 31, 2012)

orilliastitcher said:


> Has anyone else noticed how far the postings have veered from the beginning comments?


Yes...what was my original question? Lol...


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

gma11331 said:


> I am 84 and recently had a brief hospital stay due to a fall resulting in a pubic bone fracture. I can assure you they didn't try to kill me off. They made me try to walk when I didn't want to, monitored my pain meds regularly reducing when appropriate. Treated my Vit D deficiency and prescribed calcium daily to help KEEP me more fit!! I thought that remarkable at my age!


I'm glad to hear you were well cared for. Hope you have a complete recovery and many more years of good health.


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Here's the problem though with anti-gummint conservatives though. They hate government, everybody and everything sucks about the government, so they spend all their energy in anti-gummint rhetoric, essentially sabotaging the government .... and then they complain about ineffective government, clueless to the fact that it's their sabotage that creates the inefficiencies.


It's a circular firing squad. Conservatives think government is their enemy, so they do everything in their power to undermine it, make end runs around it, then run for office, then hold the country hostage if they don't get what they want by shutting down the government, and these fools STILL vote for them. Anyone ever read What's Wrong With Kansas by Thomas Frank? He nails it. Oh, and this was written well before that idiot Brownback totally trashed the economy there. Talk about people voting against their own self interests. They get blindsided by culture issues that no one in their right mind should give a flying eff about, and become distracted while they are being screwed and are brainwashed into blaming everyone but themselves. It is sick.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> When she was secretary of state, she was a strong supporter of the pipeline. Now that she's a candidate??? Who knows???


I know. That's another reason I won't support her unless she gets the nomination and then I absolutely will vote for her. I will elect ANY democrat over ANY republican.

I don't know the republicans' stand on it. They don't talk about it. But we do know pretty much all of them deny climate science, so why would they not? It's a moneymaker for the Kochs.


----------



## gma11331 (Oct 18, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I'm glad to hear you were well cared for. Hope you have a complete recovery and many more years of good health.


Thank you! I hope so too! And my hospital tenure (4 nights) only cost me $100 due to my Kaiser coverage.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

ouijian said:


> Yes and he can fondle you with his noodle! :mrgreen:


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Like Jimmy Carter, President Obama will receive the respect he has earned from history. A good man.



Wombatnomore said:


> President Obama is a respectful man. A rare breed indeed.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm sorry for your loss. Sounds like peace and control. A fine way to go. IMHO



DGreen said:


> As disturbing as it was to hear my mother gurgling, she was in a coma and unaware of any distress.
> 
> I will be forever grateful for the devoted nurses and doctors with Hospice for all they did for my mother and our family. When my mother was diagnosed, it was already too late to treat her cancer, particularly because she was already in Stage 4 and was seriously nutritionally compromised. Her regular doc wanted to continue testing, doing biopsies, whatever he could, to specifically identify her cancer and to treat it in spite of the fact that x-rays showed her body was riddled with tumors in her lungs, major organs, bones and brain. She would have none of it because she knew what treatment would mean in terms of the quality of her life - especially knowing the odds were not with her. She refused to undergo any more intrusive and painful testing and turned her mind to coming to terms with her death, in spending time with her family, and tying up loose ends so she could be at peace. Hospice talked to her, they talked to me, they talked to my daughter (a registered nurse) and they told us they would push pain meds to a lethal dose if that's what it took to be sure she was not in pain. She agreed to that plan. It never came to that, but it was a comfort to know she would not suffer.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Thanks so much for sharing that story. It is comforting to heat how wonderful the hospice was and I believe the UK program that was mentioned was just an effort to organize palliative care.
> 
> I also agree that the Sarah Palin, "Death Panel" and "killing grandma" rhetoric is so ignorant of what people actually need and go through during end of life care.
> 
> ...


I am in complete agreement.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put. Thank you.



SnoopyDoop said:


> Few groups in our history benefited more from governmental programs and "hand outs" than have the generation that made up the Teabaggers.
> 
> They sure as hell "got theirs", and now that they've got their Social Security and medicare for the rest of their life, now their suddenly worries about the debt and budget.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm trying to avoid saying you're crazy, but you insist it's your way or the highway. I'm going to ease on down the road. My concern is misplaced. My education is logic based. Our 'discussions' are doomed. The twain shall never meet.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Your concern is so touching!
> Why don't you educate yourself and then, tell me I'm crazy!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Are you saying that there are doctors and nurses killing patients? There have been cases of 'Angels of Mercy' who have been convicted and punished, but they have been few and far between. It is a crime. What exactly are you alleging?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The difference between what you're talking about and what I'm talking about is CHOICE! YOUR mother had a choice!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree.



DGreen said:


> I know. That's another reason I won't support her unless she gets the nomination and then I absolutely will vote for her. I will elect ANY democrat over ANY republican.
> 
> I don't know the republicans' stand on it. They don't talk about it. But we do know pretty much all of them deny climate science, so why would they not? It's a moneymaker for the Kochs.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

gma11331 said:


> Thank you! I hope so too! And my hospital tenure (4 nights) only cost me $100 due to my Kaiser coverage.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: We had Kaiser in Ohio years ago and loved it.


----------



## gma11331 (Oct 18, 2011)

damemary said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: We had Kaiser in Ohio years ago and loved it.


Been with Kaiser since DD 9 months old (be 50 in Sep) and it has been a God-send. My son was a poster boy for ortho always breaking something and my DD was (and is) an asthmatic since childhood. Our coverage is excellent as my late DH was a fireman with the San Francisco FD and my GD (we adopted her) is covered as well (now 19).


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

There were times that I thought I needed a season pass to the Emergency Room instead of SeaWorld. Time passes.



gma11331 said:


> Been with Kaiser since DD 9 months old (be 50 in Sep) and it has been a God-send. My son was a poster boy for ortho always breaking something and my DD was (and is) an asthmatic since childhood. Our coverage is excellent as my late DH was a fireman with the San Francisco FD and my GD (we adopted her) is covered as well (now 19).


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

I predict that in September there will be 30 days!!
Everyone run to your bunkers!!!!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I respect Bernie Sanders a great deal, but I support Hillary Clinton for the Democratic Presidential candidate. 

I am dumbfounded that anyone would consider Donald Trump qualified in any way to be President of the United States. 

I'll get over it.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> I predict that in September there will be 30 days!!
> Everyone run to your bunkers!!!!


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: To the bunkers. Let me in weeee-oooo.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

I saved you a seat! Hahahaha hahaha.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> I predict that in September there will be 30 days!!
> Everyone run to your bunkers!!!!


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Although I do suspect Hillary will be the nominee, I have decided I owe it to Bernie to stand by him
> 
> I feel this way because Rachael Maddow did a piece in hi and his history as a politician, and whay I was struck with most was how consistently he's been fighting the good fight in his gentle but no holds barred way.
> 
> If he can be a consistent and proud liberal, Democratic Socialist for over 30 years, I can at least stand by him as for as he can go with this.


If everyone who says, "I would vote for Bernie, but he can't win" would vote for him, he would win.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> I predict that in September there will be 30 days!!
> Everyone run to your bunkers!!!!


Wait a minute......the fog is clearing..........I am beginning to see images in my crystal ball......yes it is becoming clearer now.....I predict that in September there will be five Tuesdays and five Wednesdays, but not all in the same week, thankfully......image growing darker now.....fading.....end of prophesy.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Wait a minute......the fog is clearing..........I am beginning to see images in my crystal ball......yes it is becoming clearer now.....I predict that in September there will be five Tuesdays and five Wednesdays, but not all in the same week, thankfully......image growing darker now.....fading.....end of prophesy.


Hi, Eve!

Profound. So glad you solved the riddle.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Although I do suspect Hillary will be the nominee, I have decided I owe it to Bernie to stand by him
> 
> I feel this way because Rachael Maddow did a piece in hi and his history as a politician, and whay I was struck with most was how consistently he's been fighting the good fight in his gentle but no holds barred way.
> 
> If he can be a consistent and proud liberal, Democratic Socialist for over 30 years, I can at least stand by him as for as he can go with this.


I love the way he stays on message and actually tells the public what his policy positions are. No mysteries or smoke and mirrors there.

I agree, I too, will support Bernie as long as he's in the race.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Are you saying that there are doctors and nurses killing patients? There have been cases of 'Angels of Mercy' who have been convicted and punished, but they have been few and far between. It is a crime. What exactly are you alleging?


I'm saying that it's not a big stretch to think that they might be. After all, its been acknowledged that they were doing it, in the UK.


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm saying that it's not a big stretch to think that they might be. After all, its been acknowledged that they were doing it, in the UK.


I can see you have an active imagination. This is wonderful. Have you thought of putting it to better use than imagining horrific scenarios and the worst in human nature? You could redirect that energy to more creative endeavors. When you find evidence that this is actually happening, get back to us with the details.

Here's what I would like to see: a meetup of holocaust deniers and people who think Jade Helm is a ploy to send good Americans to the ovens that have been installed in empty Walmarts. Oh, wait a minute, they are the same people! Bwa hah hah hah.


----------



## dogpine (Jun 30, 2014)

Since we're off-topic anyway, here goes...I actually met (can't say conversed with because there is no conversing with some people as we well know from this thread) some Holocaust deniers ... "Hitler was just misunderstood." Ooooookay....


----------



## dogpine (Jun 30, 2014)

Another comment...unfortunately Trump seems to be a formidable farce. Can't imagine why any woman or person of Hispanic heritage would support him. But the Republicans are already spinning Hillary's email problem furiously.


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

DGreen said:


> In the meantime, they deny, deny, deny the true threats. I'm talking about the ones that will make our planet uninhabitable. Which threat is worse - debt for our grandchildren or no planet to live on?
> 
> I believe climate change is an imminent threat to our existence and I'm becoming increasingly worried about fracking. I helped put together a video for our local Amnesty International group on the subject and we have not yet seen the horrors it is bound to generate. The toxic chemicals used in fracking are often held in unsecured and unsustainable holding ponds that are already wreaking havoc when they leak. They will destroy our aquifers and they can't be cleaned up. Faucets that catch fire are NOTHING compared to the long-range dangers of fracking, since their effect is cumulative and will take another 10 or more years to become evident. Those who call the natural gas recovered by fracking "clean" energy are lying through their teeth. It's not clean. In the meantime, the conservatives rage against renewable, green sources as too expensive. Hah. They haven't SEEN expensive yet.
> 
> I'm very disappointed that Obama has not been stronger on the environment and has waffled on the Keystone Pipeline, another epic disaster. Hillary has refused to answer when asked about her position on the Keystone XL. I'm also disappointed in her and wholeheartedly support Bernie, who understands the dangers we face as humans and as a country.


Oil money talks...


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

ouijian said:


> It's a circular firing squad. Conservatives think government is their enemy, so they do everything in their power to undermine it, make end runs around it, then run for office, then hold the country hostage if they don't get what they want by shutting down the government, and these fools STILL vote for them. Anyone ever read What's Wrong With Kansas by Thomas Frank? He nails it. Oh, and this was written well before that idiot Brownback totally trashed the economy there. Talk about people voting against their own self interests. They get blindsided by culture issues that no one in their right mind should give a flying eff about, and become distracted while they are being screwed and are brainwashed into blaming everyone but themselves. It is sick.


Great analogy!


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> I predict that in September there will be 30 days!!
> Everyone run to your bunkers!!!!


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

damemary said:


> I respect Bernie Sanders a great deal, but I support Hillary Clinton for the Democratic Presidential candidate.
> 
> I am dumbfounded that anyone would consider Donald Trump qualified in any way to be President of the United States.
> 
> I'll get over it.


I am concerned. The Right wing HATES Hillary with a fierce passion. I don't know if it's her gender, her education, her husband, or her hair, but they take after her like rabid dogs. It might be better if it were Biden. He might get less virulent opposition.


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

ouijian said:


> I can see you have an active imagination. This is wonderful. Have you thought of putting it to better use than imagining horrific scenarios and the worst in human nature? You could redirect that energy to more creative endeavors. When you find evidence that this is actually happening, get back to us with the details.
> 
> Here's what I would like to see: a meetup of holocaust deniers and people who think Jade Helm is a ploy to send good Americans to the ovens that have been installed in empty Walmarts. Oh, wait a minute, they are the same people! Bwa hah hah hah.


I am starting to think you are an evil genius!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

dogpine said:


> Since we're off-topic anyway, here goes...I actually met (can't say conversed with because there is no conversing with some people as we well know from this thread) some Holocaust deniers ... "Hitler was just misunderstood." Ooooookay....


*WHAT???*


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cattdages said:


> I am concerned. The Right wing HATES Hillary with a fierce passion. I don't know if it's her gender, her education, her husband, or her hair, but they take after her like rabid dogs. It might be better if it were Biden. He might get less virulent opposition.


I don't agree. Any Democrat will be the target of virulent opposition. They hate liberals with a white-hot passion. All of them.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think the email routine only interests a certain group (Republicans!). To me, it's political drivel.



dogpine said:


> Another comment...unfortunately Trump seems to be a formidable farce. Can't imagine why any woman or person of Hispanic heritage would support him. But the Republicans are already spinning Hillary's email problem furiously.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The GOP are afraid of her. So I say give them what terrifies them. I think Hillary can deal with pressure. I think Biden has more to lose than to gain.



cattdages said:


> I am concerned. The Right wing HATES Hillary with a fierce passion. I don't know if it's her gender, her education, her husband, or her hair, but they take after her like rabid dogs. It might be better if it were Biden. He might get less virulent opposition.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I with you on the genius part.



cattdages said:


> I am starting to think you are an evil genius!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Arizona.



DGreen said:


> *WHAT???*


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Especially one with money to campaign.



DGreen said:


> I don't agree. Any Democrat will be the target of virulent opposition. They hate liberals with a white-hot passion. All of them.


----------



## 133163 (May 11, 2015)

DGreen said:


> *WHAT???*


I cannot understand why anyone in this day and age would believe Hitler is misunderstood and that the Holocaust did not occur. I wasn't going to weigh in to this discussion but this is so sad!!! Not only Jews were murdered but also sex workers, Christians, certain types of criminals, anyone Hitler and his henchmen thought to be not to their standard. Come to think of it, I am glad I am not to Hitler's standard. There are no words to describe his evil and none to describe the hideous effects of his evil.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

orilliastitcher said:


> I cannot understand why anyone in this day and age would believe Hitler is misunderstood and that the Holocaust did not occur. I wasn't going to weigh in to this discussion but this is so sad!!! Not only Jews were murdered but also sex workers, Christians, certain types of criminals, anyone Hitler and his henchmen thought to be not to their standard. Come to think of it, I am glad I am not to Hitler's standard. There are no words to describe his evil and none to describe the hideous effects of his evil.


My guess is there are some on this thread that believe the Holocaust is a fabrication. I agree with the OP, I could not have a conversation with a person like that either.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

ouijian said:


> I can see you have an active imagination. This is wonderful. Have you thought of putting it to better use than imagining horrific scenarios and the worst in human nature? You could redirect that energy to more creative endeavors. When you find evidence that this is actually happening, get back to us with the details.
> 
> Here's what I would like to see: a meetup of holocaust deniers and people who think Jade Helm is a ploy to send good Americans to the ovens that have been installed in empty Walmarts. Oh, wait a minute, they are the same people! Bwa hah hah hah.


If you'd read my previous posts, you'd know that I'm speaking from experience. I know of four people who were given high doses of morphine, until they died. Three of those people walked into the hospital, and were dead within 48 hours. THAT is not my imagination!!

As to your last paragraph? You're the only one saying these things. I'd say that YOU'RE the one with the rich imagination!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

dogpine said:


> Since we're off-topic anyway, here goes...I actually met (can't say conversed with because there is no conversing with some people as we well know from this thread) some Holocaust deniers ... "Hitler was just misunderstood." Ooooookay....


You must have weird friends. I've never known anyone that denied the holocaust.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

dogpine said:


> Another comment...unfortunately Trump seems to be a formidable farce. Can't imagine why any woman or person of Hispanic heritage would support him. But the Republicans are already spinning Hillary's email problem furiously.


I think it speaks to how bad things are in this country, that ANYONE would consider voting for trump! Some people are so desperate for change, that they'd believe his lies. He IS one of fhe 1% who are destroying this country. Besides, I believe that something will happen at the last minute, and bush will be forced upon us.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cattdages said:


> Oil money talks...


You're right. But not just oil money. All money talks.


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> If you'd read my previous posts, you'd know that I'm speaking from experience. I know of four people who were given high doses of morphine, until they died. Three of those people walked into the hospital, and were dead within 48 hours. THAT is not my imagination!!
> 
> As to your last paragraph? You're the only one saying these things. I'd say that YOU'RE the one with the rich imagination!


You need to report this to the authorities. Seriously. If you think that crimes have been committed, and it sounds like you do, then this should be investigated immediately. I'd be interested in the follow up. Do you have more information for us? Names, dates, hospitals... That sort of thing?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cattdages said:


> I am concerned. The Right wing HATES Hillary with a fierce passion. I don't know if it's her gender, her education, her husband, or her hair, but they take after her like rabid dogs. It might be better if it were Biden. He might get less virulent opposition.


hillary is a liar and biden is an idiot.


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You must have weird friends. I've never known anyone that denied the holocaust.


Dogpine did not say these deniers were friends. Don't start in with this kind of self righteous innuendo, trying to make it sound like you are better than Dogpine. Really. Give us a break.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I don't agree. Any Democrat will be the target of virulent opposition. They hate liberals with a white-hot passion. All of them.


Substitute democrat and liberal, with republican and conservative, and the same would be true of the left. So, what's the solution? We are polar extremes.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> My guess is there are some on this thread that believe the Holocaust is a fabrication. I agree with the OP, I could not have a conversation with a person like that either.


Why would you suggest such a thing? I've never heard anyone on any of these political threads, even suggest that the holocaust didn't happen. I think you're being inflammatory to suggest such a thing. Now others will pick it up and accuse those of us with different opinions of being holocaust deniers. If you've no evidence to show that someone is a holocaust denier, you shouldn't suggest it.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

ouijian said:


> Dogpine did not say these deniers were friends. Don't start in with this kind of self righteous innuendo, trying to make it sound like you are better than Dogpine. Really. Give us a break.


So, you thought it was alright for her to use innuendo, but not me? Hypocrite!


----------



## dogpine (Jun 30, 2014)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You must have weird friends. I've never known anyone that denied the holocaust.


Definitely not friends, are you kidding me???


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Substitute democrat and liberal, with republican and conservative, and the same would be true of the left. So, what's the solution? We are polar extremes.


There is no solution, especially when you say things like Joe Biden is an idiot and Hillary Clinton is a liar. Blanket statements like this are conversation killers. You have shown that you are incapable of nuanced thinking when you do this.

Even though I despise what Donald Trump stands for, I am willing to give him credit where credit is due. The man has some talent and he's not an idiot. He is very smart in dealing with the media and he's canny in his manipulation of it. But do I think these traits make him a good candidate for president? No.

I think that reducing people to one characteristic is unfair and short sighted, and it certainly does not do anything to persuade people to your point of view.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

ouijian said:


> There is no solution, especially when you say things like Joe Biden is an idiot and Hillary Clinton is a liar. Blanket statements like this are conversation killers. You have shown that you are incapable of nuanced thinking when you do this.
> 
> Even though I despise what Donald Trump stands for, I am willing to give him credit where credit is due. The man has some talent and he's not an idiot. He is very smart in dealing with the media and he's canny in his manipulation of it. But do I think these traits make him a good candidate for president? No.
> 
> I think that reducing people to one characteristic is unfair and short sighted, and it certainly does not do anything to persuade people to your point of view.


That figures!


----------



## dogpine (Jun 30, 2014)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So, you thought it was alright for her to use innuendo, but not me? Hypocrite!


What innuendo from me? Here's no innuendo, you, Knitter from Nebraska, can't read.


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So, you thought it was alright for her to use innuendo, but not me? Hypocrite!


There you go again with the labeling.


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Substitute democrat and liberal, with republican and conservative, and the same would be true of the left. So, what's the solution? We are polar extremes.


I disagree. Most of the time we are not polar extremes. Most people have issues on which they have extreme views, and others they are more moderate on. And we can still respect one another and try to see the other side.

Of course, it may be a liberal viewpoint that we don't HAVE to disagree.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

ouijian said:


> There you go again with the labeling.


Again? The labeling was not from me. It was directed at me.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Wait a minute......the fog is clearing..........I am beginning to see images in my crystal ball......yes it is becoming clearer now.....I predict that in September there will be five Tuesdays and five Wednesdays, but not all in the same week, thankfully......image growing darker now.....fading.....end of prophesy.


This is wonderful news! Good thing you have the power to see it.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cattdages said:


> I disagree. Most of the time we are not polar extremes. Most people have issues on which they have extreme views, and others they are more moderate on. And we can still respect one another and try to see the other side.
> 
> Of course, it may be a liberal viewpoint that we don't HAVE to disagree.


When it comes to politics, we're polar opposites. Conservatives believe in liberty and independence. Liberals think that government will or should, take care of everyone.


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## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> When it comes to politics, we're polar opposites. Conservatives believe in liberty and independence. Liberals think that government will or should, take care of everyone.


You should be careful of telling people what they believe. First of all, you'd be wrong 9 times out of 10...and secondly you sure don't like it when other people do it to you.

I could say conservatives believe in allowing large corporations to rape and pillage at will, and liberals believe in equal opportunity for all. And I'd be wrong just as often. Sweeping generalizations are never accurate except at the fringes.


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Cattdages, I love your avatar. Is that a blue heeler?


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## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

ouijian said:


> Cattdages, I love your avatar. Is that a blue heeler?


Yes, that's my poor late Pepper. Best dog ever! We lost him in May, but I can't bring myself to change my avatar. 

Soon I will change it to the new puppy - when I can get him to hold still long enough to take his picture!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cattdages said:


> You should be careful of telling people what they believe. First of all, you'd be wrong 9 times out of 10...and secondly you sure don't like it when other people do it to you.
> 
> I could say conservatives believe in allowing large corporations to rape and pillage at will, and liberals believe in equal opportunity for all. And I'd be wrong just as often. Sweeping generalizations are never accurate except at the fringes.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Actually no. Liberals just believe in FUNCTIONAL and responsive government. while conservatives avail themselves of government programs as much, if not more than liberals, ... all while paying lip service to their work ethic and independence.
> 
> Conservatives also fail to acknowledge to understand how government can and does promote and enable liberty and independence, and seem to LIKE to have their liberty and independence usurped by corporations.
> 
> ...


Well said!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cattdages said:


> You should be careful of telling people what they believe. First of all, you'd be wrong 9 times out of 10...and secondly you sure don't like it when other people do it to you.
> 
> I could say conservatives believe in allowing large corporations to rape and pillage at will, and liberals believe in equal opportunity for all. And I'd be wrong just as often. Sweeping generalizations are never accurate except at the fringes.


I apologize. I should have said that, all of the liberals I know, think that the government should take care of everyone.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Actually no. Liberals just believe in FUNCTIONAL and responsive government. while conservatives avail themselves of government programs as much, if not more than liberals, ... all while paying lip service to their work ethic and independence.
> 
> Conservatives also fail to acknowledge to understand how government can and does promote and enable liberty and independence, and seem to LIKE to have their liberty and independence usurped by corporations.
> 
> ...


Oh Please! The government does absolutely nothing to protect us from corporate tyranny! They support it! They pass laws enabling it. They're the ones passing out the government contracts that helped the corporations get wealthy and powerful in the first place. Quid pro quo! The corporations donate to the political campaigns, and the politicians pass the laws favoring the corporations. Just look at NAFTA and the TPP. By the way, those were passed by the dems. So don't think that anybody in DC is for the people!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> No, it hasn't been acknowledged. They've been accused of it by tabloid press in the UK and then even an anti-euthanasia group came out and said the press reports were not confirmed.
> 
> Secondly. The program was not a secret as you're claiming is going on here.
> 
> Yes, it's a HUGE stretch to anyone who thinks logically, rationally and reasonably.


It WAS a secret to those who were killed, AND their families.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> ouijian, is right, you do have an active imagination if not a penchant for fibbing.
> 
> Your FIL died from a massive stroke and was 84. There's no conspiracy.
> 
> ...


He entered the hospital with a mild stroke. When we arrived two hours later, he was sitting up in bed. After the transfered him to a room, and gave him morphine, he went downhill quickly.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Dogpine SPECIFICALLY said she'd merely conversed with people like that, and didn't really know them.
> 
> Besides, if they're to be anyone's friends, they're more likely to be your's since holocaust deniers in this country are almost always conservatives.
> 
> Lovely lot with which you associate.


I just love how you make stuff up!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Well, that's the nature of capitalism, which you seem to think is the catalyst for all your freedom and liberty.


No, THAT would be Crony capitalism! Capitalism takes place on an even level. It follows the law of supply and demand. It worked pretty well, until the government started messing with it.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

You really need serious help w/ your emotional problems!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I apologize. I should have said that, all of the liberals I know, think that the government should take care of everyone.


Hold on, Nebs.

Assuming you "know" liberals here on KP, that is definitely not an accurate statement. I, for one, am as liberal as they come and I don't think that at all. Never heard any other libs here profess that view, either.

It's just a conservative straw man that is horribly overused.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No, THAT would be Crony capitalism! Capitalism takes place on an even level. It follows the law of supply and demand. It worked pretty well, until the government started messing with it.


Then why has the government had to step in and stop abuses time and time again? Please tell us exactly what era enjoyed capitalism on an even level?


----------



## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

People have been talking about the Big 'Something' since Day One.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> No, she shouldn't substitute them as the same wouldn't be completely true.
> 
> You're making false equivalences and it's just lazy thinking to claim everybody and everything sucks.
> 
> ...


I think you've mistaken liberalism with libertarianism. Liberalism has gotten us to where we are now, with HALF of our population on food stamps, and a constant state of war. And before you try to tell me that it's all the conservatives fault, remember...the neocons are former liberals. They're the ones who ruined the republican party. It was the republicans who did most of the things you listed.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> There was no innuendo in what she said. She said she'd conversed with holocaust deniers.


The innuendo was in her insinuating that anyone who believed in any conspiracy, was like minded.

But I don't have to tell you that.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Hold on, Nebs.
> 
> Assuming you "know" liberals here on KP, that is definitely not an accurate statement. I, for one, am as liberal as they come and I don't think that at all. Never heard any other libs here profess that view, either.
> 
> It's just a conservative straw man that is horribly overused.


Are you telling me that you DON'T think that the government should take care of everyone? You've taken that position too many times to count.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Then why has the government had to step in and stop abuses time and time again? Please tell us exactly what era enjoyed capitalism on an even level?


Later. Gotta go.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> ouijian, is right, you do have an active imagination if not a penchant for fibbing.
> 
> Your FIL died from a massive stroke and was 84. There's no conspiracy.
> 
> ...


I agree with you, if the poster believed that her FIL had been murdered by a massive morphine overdose why did she not start screaming to the police and anyone else who was there to listen to her. Surely there would have been an autopsy after the death and if the death occurred so suddenly with no apparent reason then surely there would have been a coroner's inquest. If the FIL had died from being given a massive overdose of morphine it would have been discovered during the autopsy and the circumstances would have been revealed during the coroner's inquest into the death. Or perhaps just two more layers of cover up in the conspiracy theory??? I do not think so, you cannot cover things up to that extent. Many people walk into the hospital and unfortunately are dead within 24 hours. We had the case here in Australia just recently where an elderly man died in the toilets and he was not discovered for several hours. He had gone to the outpatients clinic for treatment and had not returned home. His wife became concerned and rang the hospital to see if he had been admitted, they informed her that he had not turned up for his appointment. It seems that he went to the toilet when he arrived at the hospital, suffered a massive stroke in the toilet and died there. Patients wanting to use the toilet just thought that the cubicle was occupied and used another cubicle, nobody reported it to the hospital staff because they did not realise that a dead man was in the cubicle. The cleaning staff discovered the body when they went to clean the toilets. The outpatients clinic had closed for the day so they knew something was wrong as no one should have been in the toilet. They banged on the door and got no response so they called security and discovered the poor man had died there. Autopsy revealed he had suffered a massive stroke.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Are you telling me that you DON'T think that the government should take care of everyone? You've taken that position too many times to count.


I don't believe I have EVER taken that position.

Do I think we should feed the hungry? Yes, I do. Do I think "everyone" should be fed by taxpayers? Of course not. Remember, I have had a very close-up and personal view of the food stamp program because my ex-man was a career administrator in that program including fraud investigations. I can tell you categorically that the general conservative belief on the subject is laughably WRONG and INACCURATE.

Do I think we should care for the mentally ill? Yes, I do. They are often incapable of doing so themselves and as a result, they end up on the street, homeless and at risk for all sorts of horrors. Failure to address the problems of the homeless results in greater costs in terms of criminal justice, violence and human suffering. We must be better than that if we are to call ourselves civilized.

Do I think we should educate our children? Yes, I do. Failure to do so weakens our society and our economy. In today's world, we must keep pace with other developed countries in terms of training and educating our youth in order to compete economically. The return on this investment would benefit everyone and be less costly in the long run than wasting the intellectual capital of our citizens. This has been PROVEN in the past. However, with growing income inequality the cost of an education has spiraled out of control and efforts to better ones self by attending college has become a recipe for grinding, crippling debt unless one is privileged to have wealthy parents. Free or affordable education for those who have the ability and desire to achieve should be a given - as it is in other parts of the world and where it has proven a good INVESTMENT.

Do I think we should care for our elderly? Yes I do. Social security provides a critical safety net for all of us. Conservative attempts to turn SS into a voucher program or an investment option would not solve anything. The current system, where everyone pays into the fund, has been working for a long time. For you or others who think each of us should be "personally responsible" for their own future, I say hogwash. There will always be those who are unable to navigate the pitfalls of the stock market. When they have nothing at retirement, are you willing to let them starve? No, they would still require some sort of public assistance, and if they had nothing, those who made "better" decisions would STILL have to support them via taxation. In the meantime, Wall Street would certainly love to exploit the millions more investors who would be forced into their clutches and they would love to make money on all those transactions. Which party is in favor of "free enterprise" and "free markets" for them to exploit? The absolute worst of both worlds. Talk of SS being bankrupt are lies. Democrats and republicans have BOTH been guilty of raiding SS in the past. We need to protect it. If YOU want to invest and improve your retirement, go right ahead. Good for you. For those who can't, SS at least provides a return that otherwise would be picked up by you and me, and I'm sure you don't want to subsidize those who are not "making good decisions."

Do I feel everyone is entitled to health care? Yes, I do. You may rage against the ACA, but it has been successful, in spite of the campaign by the republicans to deny this. I don't care what individual stories and supposed "hardships" people claim, it is working and will get stronger. It is also a program that leaves PRIVATE insurance intact (with regulations) and makes sure many who formerly cost taxpayers millions of dollars in uninsured care, to pay their own way. You and I were taking care of the uninsured in the past, so this is a positive change toward the personal responsibility conservatives are so focused on.

Conservatives talk about liberals wanting to be taken care of "cradle to grave." This kind of talk always makes me shake my head. Democrats are hardly ALL non-working, food-stamp-receiving, welfare-cheating do-nothings. If it were true, our economy would collapse and that is not happening despite the screeching of the conservative Chicken Littles who say it is. The social safety net takes a tiny portion of our national budget compared to the military. Where's the disgust and hate-talk about the waste that goes on there? Do we REALLY need to spend more on the military than any other country? Do we REALLY need to give massive tax breaks to the oil companies that are raking in profits hand over fist? We CAN and SHOULD balance the common good against greed and exploitation that capitalism brings.

Your apparent beliefs about what liberals want are simplistic and inaccurate and full of false assumptions.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Actually, no. Capitalism brought about a series of _extreme_ booms and busts, VERY uneven for the average person, until the government put in safeguards in the 30's in the wake of the great depression.
> 
> Thanks to Clinton's penchant to brown-nose Republicans, some of those safe guards were removed. Combine that with Reagan/Bush policies ... that created the great recession in 2008.
> 
> It's not government that caused it, it was LACK of government.


Anyone who has read UNBIASED information on this topic knows that what you say is absolutely true.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

cattdages said:


> I am concerned. The Right wing HATES Hillary with a fierce passion. I don't know if it's her gender, her education, her husband, or her hair, but they take after her like rabid dogs. It might be better if it were Biden. He might get less virulent opposition.


But wouldn't they use Biden's touchy, feely tendencies against him?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> But wouldn't they use Biden's touchy, feely tendencies against him?


Sure. Anything is fair game to them.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Well, they are. If you talk with holocaust deniers, that's only ONE of their many conspiracy theories, like 9-11 deniers Jade Helm, unpteen-thousand false flag operations and chemtrails etc.
> 
> I get that holocaust denying isn't YOUR particular thing, but she's right that the thinking is very similar and they are drawn to the same conspiracies you are.
> 
> It's all conspiratorial thinking. An seriously f-ed way of thinking about the world around us.


It has been proven that a person who believes one conspiracy theory is very likely to believe in many conspiracy theories - even if they contradict each other. It has also been shown that the more compelling the proof AGAINST a particular theory, the MORE fiercely a theorist will believe.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Liberalism has gotten us to where we are now, with HALF of our population on food stamps, and a constant state of war.


Please come back to earth, Nebs.

Half of our population is not on food stamps.

From Food Research and Action Center:

_SNAP participation averaged 45,495,380 persons in May 2015, a decrease of 56,589 persons compared with April 2015, and a decrease of 740,226 persons compared with May 2014._

BUSH WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CRASH AND THE SPIKE IN FOOD STAMP USE. Obama's policies are bringing the numbers down.

REPUBLICANS are absolutely responsible for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and Desert Storm.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Then why has the government had to step in and stop abuses time and time again? Please tell us exactly what era enjoyed capitalism on an even level?


WHEN the government steps in, they fine the corporations a fraction of the profits earned from their misdeeds. The corporations still cleared hundreds of millions or billions of dollars. So, where's the deterant? It's all for show, to make the people think they're doing something about it.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Well you know liberals here and NONE of us think government "should" take care of _everyone_.
> 
> So that's a lie.


Really? How do you feel about welfare? Food stamps? Free birth control? Healthcare? Public housing? Should I go on?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> WHEN the government steps in, they fine the corporations a fraction of the profits earned from their misdeeds. The corporations still cleared hundreds of millions or billions of dollars. So, where's the deterant? It's all for show, to make the people think they're doing something about it.


Your post from earlier:

_No, THAT would be Crony capitalism! Capitalism takes place on an even level. It follows the law of supply and demand. It worked pretty well, until the government started messing with it._

If regulation is so ineffective, why do you say government is responsible for capitalism not working well? You can't have it both ways.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Really? How do you feel about welfare? Food stamps? Free birth control? Healthcare? Public housing? Should I go on?


A better question is how you justify calling legitimate social programs that keep our economy from free-fall is government giving everyone everything? It simply isn't true. It's oversimplification and over-generalization.

Perhaps you should state YOUR position on those things.

Who should get welfare? 
Who should get food stamps? 
Who should get free birth control, if anyone? 
Who should be entitled to healthcare? 
Who should get public housing?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> See. Case in point. Complaining that the government doesn't do enough to protect us fro. corporate tyranny, while you support candidates and a mostly rightest ideology that sabotages those very efforts.
> 
> It still remains that government is the only entity large and powerful enough to do the job, and either we have to enable it to do the work necessary, or you sabotage the efforts it makes thereby enabling the corporate tyranny.
> 
> ...


This goes to show that you THINK you know everything, but you DON'T! I do not support ANY candidates. I don't know how you came to that conclusion. You could go back and read my posts, but you won't find any of me saying that I support any candidates. *You really need to stop making stuff up!*. And please! Tell me what "rightest" ideology I support that sabotages the government's efforts to protect us from corporate tyranny?

Give me *ONE* example of corporations telling us to hate the government!

You say that conservatives enable it, even conservative Democrats. Bull! Corruption enables it! Corrupt republicans AND corrupt democrats! BOTH sides take corporate money! I have consistently spoken against it. I don't make excuses to blame the other side.

*You really need to stop making stuff up!*


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> So some tabloid journalists and some people who may want to win law suits say.
> 
> But, it looks to me lime this was a perfectly out in the open program.
> 
> ...


Except that the hospitals weren't following the pathway, as they were supposed to. So, even if people knew that the pathway existed, they didn't know that their loved ones were going to be killed.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Nothing made up there. It's conservative groups like, but not limited to white supremacy groups that deny the holocaust.
> 
> If anyone's more prone to have a kinship with holocaust deniers it's a conservative, not dogpine.


Again, you're making stuff up! Just because you say so, doesn't make it true!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I do not support ANY candidates.


If you don't support any candidates, what is the point of this discussion, anyway?

To kvetch and moan about what you think is wrong, while having no intention of working - or maybe not even voting - to make things better?

I know you think the upcoming election is already rigged or immaterial because both parties are the same. So why defend conservatives and republicans?

Who or what DO you support?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I agree with you, if the poster believed that her FIL had been murdered by a massive morphine overdose why did she not start screaming to the police and anyone else who was there to listen to her. Surely there would have been an autopsy after the death and if the death occurred so suddenly with no apparent reason then surely there would have been a coroner's inquest. If the FIL had died from being given a massive overdose of morphine it would have been discovered during the autopsy and the circumstances would have been revealed during the coroner's inquest into the death. Or perhaps just two more layers of cover up in the conspiracy theory??? I do not think so, you cannot cover things up to that extent. Many people walk into the hospital and unfortunately are dead within 24 hours. We had the case here in Australia just recently where an elderly man died in the toilets and he was not discovered for several hours. He had gone to the outpatients clinic for treatment and had not returned home. His wife became concerned and rang the hospital to see if he had been admitted, they informed her that he had not turned up for his appointment. It seems that he went to the toilet when he arrived at the hospital, suffered a massive stroke in the toilet and died there. Patients wanting to use the toilet just thought that the cubicle was occupied and used another cubicle, nobody reported it to the hospital staff because they did not realise that a dead man was in the cubicle. The cleaning staff discovered the body when they went to clean the toilets. The outpatients clinic had closed for the day so they knew something was wrong as no one should have been in the toilet. They banged on the door and got no response so they called security and discovered the poor man had died there. Autopsy revealed he had suffered a massive stroke.


There was no autopsy! Mil didn't want us to say anything.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I don't believe I have EVER taken that position.
> 
> Do I think we should feed the hungry? Yes, I do. Do I think "everyone" should be fed by taxpayers? Of course not. Remember, I have had a very close-up and personal view of the food stamp program because my ex-man was a career administrator in that program including fraud investigations. I can tell you categorically that the general conservative belief on the subject is laughably WRONG and INACCURATE.
> 
> ...


They were simplistic, but your comments confirm it. As to your not believing that the government should take care of everyone, if everyone lost their jobs tomorrow, you would think so. I'm not denying that people need help and should get help. I just don't think the government should steal money from one person, and give it to another. I believe that giving should be voluntary.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Anyone who has read UNBIASED information on this topic knows that what you say is absolutely true.


What she's saying is that BOTH sides are responsible! She's just making excuses for dems!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

quote SnoopyDoop. [No that would be conservatism and trickle down economics causing increasing poverty that no amount of work ethic can dig people put of, and it's conservatives that are the war mongers.

*Really? I thought the economy was pretty good til bush got in. As to the conservatives being the war mongers? Nonsense! BOTH sides are war mongers! Just because libs SAY don't want war, doesn't mean anything! We have been at war, my entire life. Its made NO difference whether the reps were in charge, or the dems.*

quote=SnoopyDoop]_No, neo-cons are not former liberals. That's just another talking point from your GlennBeckian rw conspiracy sites._.

*Nope! That's the definition given by Merriam Webster.*


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> There was no autopsy! Mil didn't want us to say anything.


There is always an autopsy with a sudden and unexpected death, a death certificate cannot be issued without a cause of death. It is not up to the mother in law or members of the deceased's family to order an autopsy, it is routine to determine the cause of death. If there was no autopsy then your father in law's death must have been caused by some illness he was suffering from. If there is any suspicion surrounding the death there will also be a coroner's inquiry into the causes of the death.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> But wouldn't they use Biden's touchy, feely tendencies against him?


That's only ONE example, of what an idiot he is.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> They were simplistic, but your comments confirm it. As to your not believing that the government should take care of everyone, if everyone lost their jobs tomorrow, you would think so. I'm not denying that people need help and should get help. I just don't think the government should steal money from one person, and give it to another. I believe that giving should be voluntary.


I am sorry but I am not following you here. Are you hinting that the government is stealing money when they raise taxes? Are you suggesting that people should volunteer to pay taxes? How does the government steal money from one person to give to another?

Just to change the subject, how is that precious little imp Max? I bet he is still the apple of your eye and I know he just adores you. Give him a big hug from me and tell him he is your precious little man. Is he getting ready for school in a month time? A big step for him. Take care and do not let yourself become exhausted and run down.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Well, they are. If you talk with holocaust deniers, that's only ONE of their many conspiracy theories, like 9-11 deniers Jade Helm, unpteen-thousand false flag operations and chemtrails etc.
> 
> I get that holocaust denying isn't YOUR particular thing, but she's right that the thinking is very similar and they are drawn to the same conspiracies you are.
> 
> It's all conspiratorial thinking. An seriously f-ed way of thinking about the world around us.


In YOUR opinion! You keep forgetting to say "IMO".


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> No she hasn't. None of us have.
> 
> Again, you think that because you tend to lean towards conspiratorial thinking.


And you tend towards making things up.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Conspiratorial thinking. It really screws up one's world view and evidently ones personal view. It's sad because ultimately, it's no way to live.


Again...in your opinion!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Sure. Anything is fair game to them.


"to them"?? Would you vote for a man who thinks its acceptable to put his hands all over women he doesn't know? Women in a subordinate position? I can't imagine any self respecting woman, voting for him!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> It has been proven that a person who believes one conspiracy theory is very likely to believe in many conspiracy theories - even if they contradict each other. It has also been shown that the more compelling the proof AGAINST a particular theory, the MORE fiercely a theorist will believe.


I can only imagine the source you'd come up for that one.


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

Thanks for making this point. It is a nuance that is often ignored


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> They were simplistic, but your comments confirm it. As to your not believing that the government should take care of everyone, if everyone lost their jobs tomorrow, you would think so. I'm not denying that people need help and should get help. I just don't think the government should steal money from one person, and give it to another. I believe that giving should be voluntary.


Not even you can possibly believe that all the needs of the poor and sick and homeless can be cared for by charitable giving. That is completely unrealistic and I think you know it. How are you going to take care of the sick with nothing but charitable giving? Charities can't even feed everyone in need.

If EVERYONE lost their jobs tomorrow? In what world do you believe that would happen? When there are periods of high unemployment the social safety net stabilizes the economy to prevent total and complete chaos and deeply depressed economies due to the downward spiral of SUPPLY AND DEMAND at those times. Yes, I would expect government to step in if there was a general collapse of the economy. Whether they could or not is open to question.

Taxes are NOT stealing. It might be good for you to remember than those receiving public benefits are most likely taxpayers, too. People who live on generational welfare are a very, very small portion of those who benefit from welfare/food stamps. Most food stamp recipients have been paying taxes just like you when they had jobs or before they were injured or before their house burned down or before the recession that took their jobs. They will return to paying taxes as soon as they can. THEY HAVE HELPED FUND food stamps and welfare. Have you ever considered that?

We have something known as a social contract, Nebs. We pay taxes to pay for things that benefit everyone. The military, highways, infrastructure, the FAA, the Food and Drug Administration. Whether you like it or even believe it, social programs help keep our economy on an even keel, and it is not stealing. Of course, your JUDGMENT of others who in your uninformed opinion regarding their circumstances don't deserve it...? Hogwash.


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

SnoopyDoop said:


> If conservatism hadn't impoverished people, there's be no need for food stamps.
> 
> What they never seem to get or acknowledge is that safety nets aren't necessarily saving poor people, it's saving our society and economy.
> 
> _The safety nets are for US and our economy more than it is the individuals utilizing them._


This and the deregulation and institutionalized greed that led to the income gap which has almost eliminated the middle class.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Please come back to earth, Nebs.
> 
> Half of our population is not on food stamps.
> 
> ...


OK, back to earth. But 46 Million is still a LOT!

I find it so boring to just blame bush for everything. He is responsible, but so are most of them. obama kept us in Afghanistan when he promised we'd get out. He was responsible for training and funding isis, in an effort to overthrow assad, because he wouldn't let them run a pipeline through Syria. He took us back into Iraq, and now Syria. Don't forget Ukraine. Our government is responsible for what's happening there, and it's about to blow up into all out war. The crisis in the Ukraine, is all about stopping Russia from selling oil and natural gas to Europe. I don't believe that any ONE of them is responsible. The wars are about oil and oil pipelines. They're about keeping their cronies in business.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Your post from earlier:
> 
> _No, THAT would be Crony capitalism! Capitalism takes place on an even level. It follows the law of supply and demand. It worked pretty well, until the government started messing with it._
> 
> If regulation is so ineffective, why do you say government is responsible for capitalism not working well? You can't have it both ways.


The government is at the root of crony capitalism. If regulation were a sincere effort, the punishment would be so large, that corporations didn't profit from their misdeeds. As it is now, they receive a slap on the wrist and a wink.


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> They were simplistic, but your comments confirm it. As to your not believing that the government should take care of everyone, if everyone lost their jobs tomorrow, you would think so. I'm not denying that people need help and should get help. I just don't think the government should steal money from one person, and give it to another. I believe that giving should be voluntary.


Ah ha. So, really, you just don't want to pay taxes. Why didn't you just say so in the beginning? You could have saved us all a lot of time. You think the government steals your money and gives it to other people. Why bother having a government? We can revert to barbarism. I've always loved the pirate look. Lovely. How about a little cholera with that Philly cheesesteak?


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> That's only ONE example, of what an idiot he is.


For someone who doesn't support any candidate you sure are quick to tear some down. And I'm sure your "other examples" will be straight from Fox news and just as ill-informed. You have got to be one of the most closed minded people I have encountered and that's saying something.

Intelligent, articulate women are presenting you with well thought out points. Allow yourself room to learn. I have learned a lot from this thread, so I thank you all for the stimulating conversation.


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

cattdages said:


> For someone who doesn't support sny candidate you sure are quick to tear some down. And I'm sure your "other examples" will be straight from Fox news and just as ill-informed. You have got to be one of the most closed minded people I have encountered and that's saying something.
> 
> Intelligent, articulate women are presenting you with well thought out points. Allow yourself room to learn. I have learned a lot from this thread, so I thank you all for the stimulating conversation.


Yes, I think I've found a fur buddy.


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

I am in complete agreement with you here.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> A better question is how you justify calling legitimate social programs that keep our economy from free-fall is government giving everyone everything? It simply isn't true. It's oversimplification and over-generalization.
> 
> Perhaps you should state YOUR position on those things.
> 
> ...


FIRST, let me say that I would support a government that did not allow corporations to send the jobs overseas, without tariffs to bring the goods back into the country. Because without jobs, we will always have huge numbers of people who can't support themselves. That said, IF the government would bring back the jobs, the only people that would NEED welfare etc, would be the disabled. If the government brought back the jobs, there would be more jobs than people. People could demand a living wage and the tax coffers would be full, to support the disabled and increase SS for the elderly. BUT, if the government continues to allow corporations to send the jobs overseas, we will be doomed. Because they'll never eliminate the tax loopholes for the truly wealthy, and our middle class will not be able to support everyone else forever. Our rate of debt to GDP is already over 100. We cannot continue on this path. There can be NO recovery, without jobs!

We should not HAVE to support able bodied people! If we put them to work, we wouldn't have to.


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## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> FIRST, let me say that I would support a government that did not allow corporations to send the jobs overseas, without tariffs to bring the goods back into the country. Because without jobs, we will always have huge numbers of people who can't support themselves. That said, IF the government would bring back the jobs, the only people that would NEED welfare etc, would be the disabled. If the government brought back the jobs, there would be more jobs than people. People could demand a living wage and the tax coffers would be full, to support the disabled and increase SS for the elderly. BUT, if the government continues to allow corporations to send the jobs overseas, we will be doomed. Because they'll never eliminate the tax loopholes for the truly wealthy, and our middle class will not be able to support everyone else forever. Our rate of debt to GDP is already over 100. We cannot continue on this path. There can be NO recovery, without jobs!
> 
> We should not HAVE to support able bodied people! If we put them to work, we wouldn't have to.


I agree with you. Why are we paying unemployment and welfare and complaining about our crumbling infrastructure? Those people could be working !That is a serous waste of resources.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

quote=DGreen]If you don't support any candidates, what is the point of this discussion, anyway?

To kvetch and moan about what you think is wrong, while having no intention of working- or maybe not even voting - to make things better?

I know you think the upcoming election is already rigged or immaterial because both parties are the same. So why defend conservatives and republicans?

Who or what DO you support?[/quote]

I defend conservatives and republicans in general, because the vast majority of them are not as you say. AND because the liberals and democrats are no better. The reason I believe that both parties are the same, is because nothing really changes. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. We are in a constant state of war, aand in recent years we're in multiple wars at the same time. The reps and dems SAY different things, but they DO the same things! So, why would anybody think they're any different?

I will support anyone who puts the PEOPLE first!


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> FIRST, let me say that I would support a government that did not allow corporations to send the jobs overseas, without tariffs to bring the goods back into the country. Because without jobs, we will always have huge numbers of people who can't support themselves. That said, IF the government would bring back the jobs, the only people that would NEED welfare etc, would be the disabled. If the government brought back the jobs, there would be more jobs than people. People could demand a living wage and the tax coffers would be full, to support the disabled and increase SS for the elderly. BUT, if the government continues to allow corporations to send the jobs overseas, we will be doomed. Because they'll never eliminate the tax loopholes for the truly wealthy, and our middle class will not be able to support everyone else forever. Our rate of debt to GDP is already over 100. We cannot continue on this path. There can be NO recovery, without jobs!
> 
> We should not HAVE to support able bodied people! If we put them to work, we wouldn't have to.


But I thought you said earlier that government regulation was the problem. So how does government force corporations to bring back jobs without some kind of regulation?


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> quote=DGreen]If you don't support any candidates, what is the point of this discussion, anyway?
> 
> To kvetch and moan about what you think is wrong, while having no intention of working- or maybe not even voting - to make things better?
> 
> ...


I defend conservatives and republicans in general, because the vast majority of them are not as you say. AND because the liberals and democrats are no better. The reason I believe that both parties are the same, is because nothing really changes. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. We are in a constant state of war, aand in recent years we're in multiple wars at the same time. The reps and dems SAY different things, but they DO the same things! So, why would anybody think they're any different?

I will support anyone who puts the PEOPLE first![/quote]

Then you should be supporting Bernie Sanders. QED


----------



## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

The Big List Of 33 Things That Are Going To Happen In September 2015

Huh? Oh yeah, that's the subject of this thread.

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/the-big-list-of-33-things-that-are-going-to-happen-in-september-2015


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I am sorry but I am not following you here. Are you hinting that the government is stealing money when they raise taxes? Are you suggesting that people should volunteer to pay taxes? How does the government steal money from one person to give to another?
> 
> Just to change the subject, how is that precious little imp Max? I bet he is still the apple of your eye and I know he just adores you. Give him a big hug from me and tell him he is your precious little man. Is he getting ready for school in a month time? A big step for him. Take care and do not let yourself become exhausted and run down.


If someone takes your money without your consent, and gives it to someone else, what would you call it? Oh, I forgot, when the government does it, it's called taxation.

Max is my sweet little boy! I love him so much! He's having a difficult time sharing mommy with four others. He seems to only want attention, when we're feeding the babies, and is acting out. He's starting preschool on September 8th. I'm a little worried with how it will go. We'll see. DH and I were planning on taking him camping this weekend, but now they're saying there will be thunderstorms Friday and Saturday. So we've decided to postpone it til next weekend. He loves camping, so I can't wait. He especially loves the canoe, it'll be so much fun!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The government is at the root of crony capitalism. If regulation were a sincere effort, the punishment would be so large, that corporations didn't profit from their misdeeds. As it is now, they receive a slap on the wrist and a wink.


Then you admit that corporations are guilty of misdeeds? And the government doesn't do enough? Seems like there's a disconnect in your logic.

You also said that given a level playing field, capitalism would work for everybody. Obviously, it does not, so government regulation is necessary.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Except that the hospitals weren't following the pathway, as they were supposed to. So, even if people knew that the pathway existed, they didn't know that their loved ones were going to be killed.


The Pathway was a government program. You just said the hospitals were not following the guidelines as they were supposed to.

No government direction involved, if what you say is true. However, you stated you feared government directives to kill people. Your example of the Pathway is deflating every time you post.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Not even you can possibly believe that all the needs of the poor and sick and homeless can be cared for by charitable giving. That is completely unrealistic and I think you know it. How are you going to take care of the sick with nothing but charitable giving? Charities can't even feed everyone in need.
> 
> If EVERYONE lost their jobs tomorrow? In what world do you believe that would happen? When there are periods of high unemployment the social safety net stabilizes the economy to prevent total and complete chaos and deeply depressed economies due to the downward spiral of SUPPLY AND DEMAND at those times. Yes, I would expect government to step in if there was a general collapse of the economy. Whether they could or not is open to question.
> 
> ...


What I keep saying is that if the government didn't allow the corporations to profit by sending the jobs away, very few people would be in need of benefits! We wouldn't NEED to support millions of people, if the government did its job. We shouldn't HAVE to support millions of people! Why isn't everyone screaming about these trade treaties that benefit everyone but us? Why do we just keep saying that the government should support those in need? The best way to support them, is to bring back the jobs that they need! I don't want people to starve! I don't want them to be homeless! I want them to support themselves, but they can't do that, if our government allows the jobs to leave the country!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

ouijian said:


> Ah ha. So, really, you just don't want to pay taxes. Why didn't you just say so in the beginning? You could have saved us all a lot of time. You think the government steals your money and gives it to other people. Why bother having a government? We can revert to barbarism. I've always loved the pirate look. Lovely. How about a little cholera with that Philly cheesesteak?


I don't mind paying taxes to support infrastructure that we all use, or to pay for necessary services. But the federal government should not be the biggest employer in the country. The amount of money that they spend, and what they spend it on, is ridiculous! They should be good stewards of our money. And they're not!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> There is always an autopsy with a sudden and unexpected death, a death certificate cannot be issued without a cause of death. It is not up to the mother in law or members of the deceased's family to order an autopsy, it is routine to determine the cause of death. If there was no autopsy then your father in law's death must have been caused by some illness he was suffering from. If there is any suspicion surrounding the death there will also be a coroner's inquiry into the causes of the death.


I'm afraid it doesn't work precisely that way in the US, particularly with deaths in hospitals. The doctor gives the cause of death when signing the death certificate. Apparently, there is little or no review of this. My MIL was killed by Chandler Regional Hospital in Chandler, Arizona when they gave her diuretics in huge quantities as a prep for medical testing but did not monitor her electrolytes, which had been completely stripped from her system by the diuretics. You can't live without them and her heart stopped. A nurse walked by and noticed she didn't look so good (she was dead) so they called the crash cart and shocked her back to life. The brain damage was significant. Then they performed surgery on her and removed her duodenum, which was bleeding from massive ulcers. She bled out after the surgery and died. She had been a highly intelligent and independent person prior to going into the hospital. Had she lived, she would have had to have constant, round the clock care because her short term memory was completely gone. It was a needless tragedy.

Cause of death? Arthrosclerosis, according to her doctor. The family was outraged, but legal counsel at the time explained that due to her age, the cost of suing and holding the hospital accountable would have far exceeded the potential fine against the hospital. Seniors are not valued in the US.

Having said that, we don't just kill them deliberately as Nebs suggests.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cattdages said:


> For someone who doesn't support any candidate you sure are quick to tear some down. And I'm sure your "other examples" will be straight from Fox news and just as ill-informed. You have got to be one of the most closed minded people I have encountered and that's saying something.
> 
> Intelligent, articulate women are presenting you with well thought out points. Allow yourself room to learn. I have learned a lot from this thread, so I thank you all for the stimulating conversation.


Why do liberals accuse everyone who disagrees with them, of getting their news from FOX? I've never watched FOX, except for a few links that people may have posted.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cattdages said:


> I agree with you. Why are we paying unemployment and welfare and complaining about our crumbling infrastructure? Those people could be working !That is a serous waste of resources.


IMO, THIS is where our focus should lie. None of our politicians are talking about bringing back the jobs. We need that more than anything else.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

ouijian said:


> But I thought you said earlier that government regulation was the problem. So how does government force corporations to bring back jobs without some kind of regulation?


No! I didn't say that regulation was the problem. I said that when the government fines a corp a fraction of their gain (from misdeeds), the regulation is ineffective. It wasn't regulation or lack of regulation that allowed the corporations to send the jobs overseas, it was the trade treaties (which were passed by the dems).


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

ouijian said:


> Then you should be supporting Bernie Sanders. QED


I do not believe that socialism really puts the people first. It puts the government first.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I can only imagine the source you'd come up for that one.


Look it up yourself.

Keeping in mind, of course, that the stronger the evidence against a conspiracy theory, the more strongly it is believed by those prone to believe in the first place. I doubt you would accept these findings.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mr-personality/201103/personality-and-conspiracy-theories-what-your-beliefs-say-about-you

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2013/11/conspiracy_theory_psychology_people_who_claim_to_know_the_truth_about_jfk.html

http://time.com/3997033/conspiracy-theories/

http://www.open.edu/openlearn/body-mind/psychology/psychological-studies/the-psychology-conspiracy-theories

And finally a quotation from the last source:

Conspiracy theorists have been shown to be quite similar to skeptics in terms of cognitive functioning or personality. In fact, the only consistent finding is that believers tend to be disenchanted with authority and cynical about the mainstream of politics.

But this is hardly surprising: these are the central motifs of any conspiracy theory!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Then you admit that corporations are guilty of misdeeds? And the government doesn't do enough? Seems like there's a disconnect in your logic.
> 
> You also said that given a level playing field, capitalism would work for everybody. Obviously, it does not, so government regulation is necessary.


Absolutely! Why is there a disconnect? When have I ever said any different? I've never said that regulation wasn't necessary, only that it wasn't effective if not enforced adequately. What good is a regulation, if corporations profit from ignoring them?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I find it so boring to just blame bush for everything.


Gee, some of us find it outrageous that Obama gets blamed for what Bush did. What Bush did was real and being bored with it doesn't change the facts.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> The Pathway was a government program. You just said the hospitals were not following the guidelines as they were supposed to.
> 
> No government direction involved, if what you say is true. However, you stated you feared government directives to kill people. Your example of the Pathway is deflating every time you post.


You know? I'd love to have a discussion about the pathway or welfare or taxes or government or infrastructure or... But all this is, is my responding to accusations and judgements. I guess no one wants to have a discussion about anything. So, I'm done! Bye!


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No, THAT would be Crony capitalism! Capitalism takes place on an even level. It follows the law of supply and demand. It worked pretty well, until the government started messing with it.


Do you think this is not a statement about government regulation? I can find more if you like. This is just the first one that popped up.


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

KFN is having a hissy fit because we nailed her sorry ass to the wall by exposing all her contradictory statements.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I defend conservatives and republicans in general, because the vast majority of them are not as you say. AND because the liberals and democrats are no better. The reason I believe that both parties are the same, is because nothing really changes. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. We are in a constant state of war, aand in recent years we're in multiple wars at the same time. The reps and dems SAY different things, but they DO the same things! So, why would anybody think they're any different?
> 
> I will support anyone who puts the PEOPLE first!


Then Bernie Sanders is your man.


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Look it up yourself.
> 
> Keeping in mind, of course, that the stronger the evidence against a conspiracy theory, the more strongly it is believed by those prone to believe in the first place. I doubt you would accept these findings.
> 
> ...


DG, you are brilliant!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

> DGreen wrote:
> A better question is how you justify calling legitimate social programs that keep our economy from free-fall is government giving everyone everything? It simply isn't true. It's oversimplification and over-generalization.
> 
> Perhaps you should state YOUR position on those things.
> ...


You have given us your opinion on what needs to be done - if people had jobs and if we could turn the clock back to days before globalization. It isn't going to happen, so how about answering the question? Who do YOU think deserves help? No one?

Hmm. WWJD?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I see there is still a jump roping game going on here and I want to jump back in. Would someone be so kind as to tell me the main idea in one sentence of what is going on currently? Thanks to the person who summarizes.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> I see there is still a jump roping game going on here and I want to jump back in. Would someone be so kind as to tell me the main idea in one sentence of what is going on currently? Thanks to the person who summarizes.


Nebs is giving us her version of what is wrong with our government and how liberals ALL think the government should give us everything; with wandering points and rebuttals.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, THIS is where our focus should lie. None of our politicians are talking about bringing back the jobs. We need that more than anything else.


Consumers create jobs.

There will never be a robust recovery until wages rise so consumers can buy things, creating an UPWARD spiral of prosperity.

There will never be a robust recovery while corporations are hoarding their profits instead of paying their employees.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Nebs is giving us her version of what is wrong with our government and how liberals ALL think the government should give us everything; with wandering points and rebuttals.


Thanks. I will give you an unsought out point for the evening.

Haven't we had that conversation a zillion times? I started out with this thread but it go a little wacko so I left. Now it seems that it took the usual bend in the road. Carry on anyway.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Absolutely! Why is there a disconnect? When have I ever said any different? I've never said that regulation wasn't necessary, only that it wasn't effective if not enforced adequately. What good is a regulation, if corporations profit from ignoring them?


Your words:

No, THAT would be Crony capitalism! Capitalism takes place on an even level. It follows the law of supply and demand. It worked pretty well, until the government started messing with it.


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Alex Jones.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I do not believe that socialism really puts the people first. It puts the government first.


Like social security does.

Like disaster relief does.

Like disability relief does.

Like national and state parks do.

You're thinking of pure socialism in the sense of the old Soviet Union. No one wants that.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

ouijian said:


> Alex Jones.


Alex Jones and a million places on the internet. Some people must make a living out of fabricating that stuff. Within hours of any violent event, explosion, train wreck, shooting - there are sites calling it a government conspiracy or "false flag." Check YouTube. I am especially amused by the sites telling us there are lizard people from outer space invading our country and are in high positions in government. Oh, and that Michelle Obama is really a man (they can prove it). The list is endless.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Excellent point. I too would be interested in followup.



ouijian said:


> You need to report this to the authorities. Seriously. If you think that crimes have been committed, and it sounds like you do, then this should be investigated immediately. I'd be interested in the follow up. Do you have more information for us? Names, dates, hospitals... That sort of thing?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Well, usually one side (mostly) fought for higher fines and the other side (mostly) fought for less.
> 
> And while I understand the argument that you're a cynic and in the end it's futile ... I still don't understand why you vote for the side that almost always votes and fights for less fines.
> 
> .... and then complain, as you just did about the low fines.


Excellent point.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Who would you suggest and why?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> hillary is a liar and biden is an idiot.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree with your thoughts. Your expression is eloquent.



SnoopyDoop said:


> Actually no. Liberals just believe in FUNCTIONAL and responsive government. while conservatives avail themselves of government programs as much, if not more than liberals, ... all while paying lip service to their work ethic and independence.
> 
> Conservatives also fail to acknowledge to understand how government can and does promote and enable liberty and independence, and seem to LIKE to have their liberty and independence usurped by corporations.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I see the truth in this.



SnoopyDoop said:


> No, it hasn't been acknowledged. They've been accused of it by tabloid press in the UK and then even an anti-euthanasia group came out and said the press reports were not confirmed.
> 
> Secondly. The program was not a secret as you're claiming is going on here.
> 
> Yes, it's a HUGE stretch to anyone who thinks logically, rationally and reasonably.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SnoopyDoop said:


> ouijian, is right, you do have an active imagination if not a penchant for fibbing.
> 
> Your FIL died from a massive stroke and was 84. There's no conspiracy.
> 
> ...


I think the last question deserves a response.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Well then she's a good liar, because you never officially find anything on her. Just a series of false accusations against her.
> 
> And Biden is a damn genius compared to ANYONE the Right has to offer. Not to mention, he's just plain correct on most issues.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put. Thank you.



SnoopyDoop said:


> No, she shouldn't substitute them as the same wouldn't be completely true.
> 
> You're making false equivalences and it's just lazy thinking to claim everybody and everything sucks.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It WAS a secret to those who were killed, AND their families.


 :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: Please explain. It must have become known to the families and/or others at some point. Was it reported to authorities? Was it investigated? Or is this whining and casting blame?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Was the cause given and documented?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> He entered the hospital with a mild stroke. When we arrived two hours later, he was sitting up in bed. After the transfered him to a room, and gave him morphine, he went downhill quickly.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SnoopyDoop said:


> See. Case in point. Complaining that the government doesn't do enough to protect us fro. corporate tyranny, while you support candidates and a mostly rightest ideology that sabotages those very efforts.
> 
> It still remains that government is the only entity large and powerful enough to do the job, and either we have to enable it to do the work necessary, or you sabotage the efforts it makes thereby enabling the corporate tyranny.
> 
> ...


*Good point. "You enable corporate freedom to take away individual freedoms."*


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Later. Gotta go.


I wonder where you find the time for KP when you're so busy with 5 babies. Tell us what vitamins you rely on. You're the Energizer Bunny.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Bravo! Well expressed. I'm proud to agree.



DGreen said:


> I don't believe I have EVER taken that position.
> 
> Do I think we should feed the hungry? Yes, I do. Do I think "everyone" should be fed by taxpayers? Of course not. Remember, I have had a very close-up and personal view of the food stamp program because my ex-man was a career administrator in that program including fraud investigations. I can tell you categorically that the general conservative belief on the subject is laughably WRONG and INACCURATE.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SnoopyDoop said:


> _No, neo-cons are not former liberals. That's just another talking point from your GlennBeckian rw conspiracy sites._.
> 
> Neither Leo Strauss or Irving Kristol were "former Liberals".
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Of course they would. And Biden would not enjoy the full support of the party. Campaign war chest? Endorsements? If the Dems lost the election, he would be labelled a spoiler who split the vote.



Wombatnomore said:


> But wouldn't they use Biden's touchy, feely tendencies against him?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen has an eloquent comment on the subject in the last few pages. Have you read it? I'd bet it is similar to Snoopy's philosophy, but I'm sure you'll receive a full answer. Be sure not to miss it.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Really? How do you feel about welfare? Food stamps? Free birth control? Healthcare? Public housing? Should I go on?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> A better question is how you justify calling legitimate social programs that keep our economy from free-fall is government giving everyone everything? It simply isn't true. It's oversimplification and over-generalization.
> 
> Perhaps you should state YOUR position on those things.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> This goes to show that you THINK you know everything, but you DON'T! I do not support ANY candidates. I don't know how you came to that conclusion. You could go back and read my posts, but you won't find any of me saying that I support any candidates. *You really need to stop making stuff up!*. And please! Tell me what "rightest" ideology I support that sabotages the government's efforts to protect us from corporate tyranny?
> 
> Give me *ONE* example of corporations telling us to hate the government!
> 
> ...


 :XD: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> There was no autopsy! Mil didn't want us to say anything.


 :?: Why say something now in this context then? I think that removes the case from consideration. Don't you?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

There are groups of people who will never be removed from the welfare system by jobs.

Mentally ill.

Elderly.

Disabled.

Minor children.

And I'm sure there are others. No simple answers to complex questions.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> FIRST, let me say that I would support a government that did not allow corporations to send the jobs overseas, without tariffs to bring the goods back into the country. Because without jobs, we will always have huge numbers of people who can't support themselves. That said, IF the government would bring back the jobs, the only people that would NEED welfare etc, would be the disabled. If the government brought back the jobs, there would be more jobs than people. People could demand a living wage and the tax coffers would be full, to support the disabled and increase SS for the elderly. BUT, if the government continues to allow corporations to send the jobs overseas, we will be doomed. Because they'll never eliminate the tax loopholes for the truly wealthy, and our middle class will not be able to support everyone else forever. Our rate of debt to GDP is already over 100. We cannot continue on this path. There can be NO recovery, without jobs!
> 
> We should not HAVE to support able bodied people! If we put them to work, we wouldn't have to.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sounds like Bernie Sanders.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> quote=DGreen]If you don't support any candidates, what is the point of this discussion, anyway?
> 
> To kvetch and moan about what you think is wrong, while having no intention of working- or maybe not even voting - to make things better?
> 
> ...


I defend conservatives and republicans in general, because the vast majority of them are not as you say. AND because the liberals and democrats are no better. The reason I believe that both parties are the same, is because nothing really changes. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. We are in a constant state of war, aand in recent years we're in multiple wars at the same time. The reps and dems SAY different things, but they DO the same things! So, why would anybody think they're any different?

I will support anyone who puts the PEOPLE first![/quote]


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think you've mistaken liberalism with libertarianism. Liberalism has gotten us to where we are now, with HALF of our population on food stamps, and a constant state of war. And before you try to tell me that it's all the conservatives fault, remember...the neocons are former liberals. They're the ones who ruined the republican party. It was the republicans who did most of the things you listed.


Um, the population of the US is 321,563,663. The number of people getting SNAP benefits is 47,000,000--far from "half our population."


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

*Not everyone needing welfare will be removed from welfare by getting a job. *

*Name some instances from recent comments. Easy peasy. *



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What I keep saying is that if the government didn't allow the corporations to profit by sending the jobs away, very few people would be in need of benefits! We wouldn't NEED to support millions of people, if the government did its job. We shouldn't HAVE to support millions of people! Why isn't everyone screaming about these trade treaties that benefit everyone but us? Why do we just keep saying that the government should support those in need? The best way to support them, is to bring back the jobs that they need! I don't want people to starve! I don't want them to be homeless! I want them to support themselves, but they can't do that, if our government allows the jobs to leave the country!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Wonder if those jobs do not provide a living wage?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, THIS is where our focus should lie. None of our politicians are talking about bringing back the jobs. We need that more than anything else.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And I don't believe in conspiracy theories. And never the twain shall meet.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I do not believe that socialism really puts the people first. It puts the government first.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I guess it's possible for some people to forget being lied to and robbed of years of tax money. Could you forget losing family members to war? I can't.



DGreen said:


> Gee, some of us find it outrageous that Obama gets blamed for what Bush did. What Bush did was real and being bored with it doesn't change the facts.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

pardon me but was it ever determined what was to happen in Sept?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

IMHO the topic is about conspiracies predicted in September, and the current discussion is about gaining factual information for consideration. (I know. Blah, blah, blah.)



SQM said:


> I see there is still a jump roping game going on here and I want to jump back in. Would someone be so kind as to tell me the main idea in one sentence of what is going on currently? Thanks to the person who summarizes.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Gotta find a way to make a living.



ouijian said:


> Alex Jones.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Honest perspective. Thank you.



sumpleby said:


> Um, the population of the US is 321,563,663. The number of people getting SNAP benefits is 47,000,000--far from "half our population."


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Everything and nothing, as you suspected at first.



SQM said:


> pardon me but was it ever determined what was to happen in Sept?


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Max is my sweet little boy! I love him so much! He's having a difficult time sharing mommy with four others. He seems to only want attention, when we're feeding the babies, and is acting out. He's starting preschool on September 8th. I'm a little worried with how it will go. We'll see. DH and I were planning on taking him camping this weekend, but now they're saying there will be thunderstorms Friday and Saturday. So we've decided to postpone it til next weekend. He loves camping, so I can't wait. He especially loves the canoe, it'll be so much fun!


I am glad you are taking him camping. That is what he needs at the moment, to be the centre of attention without others getting all the attention. I can understand him loving camping and the canoe. It is so quiet and peaceful and the canoe glides silently through the water. Teach him to love the outdoors and love nature. I am sure he will surprise you with what he understands about the natural world. I can understand him being out of sorts with the new arrivals. If people would stop and think before they all rush to greet the new babies. My mother always said "greet the older child first and then ask the older child to show you the new babies, that way the older child is not left out". I agree, little children do not understand that adults, especially women, are fascinated by babies. The older child just interprets this as being replaced in everyone affection, the new babies are seen as being more important and even as being more deserving of love and affection than they are. Max is still only young and he needs his 'me time' with his mommy, a time when there is no interruption by the needs of the babies. It is a great idea to take him camping and I am sure that both you and your husband will benefit from the time to relax. I will be thinking him when he starts his pre school but I know you will be there for him, fighting his battles. As he grows older you will see all the love and attention you are now giving him will be repaid by him with love and loyalty. He is lucky to have such a devoted nan. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: for being there for him.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I'm afraid it doesn't work precisely that way in the US, particularly with deaths in hospitals. The doctor gives the cause of death when signing the death certificate. Apparently, there is little or no review of this. My MIL was killed by Chandler Regional Hospital in Chandler, Arizona when they gave her diuretics in huge quantities as a prep for medical testing but did not monitor her electrolytes, which had been completely stripped from her system by the diuretics. You can't live without them and her heart stopped. A nurse walked by and noticed she didn't look so good (she was dead) so they called the crash cart and shocked her back to life. The brain damage was significant. Then they performed surgery on her and removed her duodenum, which was bleeding from massive ulcers. She bled out after the surgery and died. She had been a highly intelligent and independent person prior to going into the hospital. Had she lived, she would have had to have constant, round the clock care because her short term memory was completely gone. It was a needless tragedy.
> 
> Cause of death? Arthrosclerosis, according to her doctor. The family was outraged, but legal counsel at the time explained that due to her age, the cost of suing and holding the hospital accountable would have far exceeded the potential fine against the hospital. Seniors are not valued in the US.
> 
> Having said that, we don't just kill them deliberately as Nebs suggests.


Thanks for your reply. I have sent you a P M. There is a huge difference between negligence and incompetence and deliberately killing people.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm compelled to tell everyone how grateful I am to be exposed to the ideas expressed in KP General Chit Chat. I appreciate so many fine minds with knowledge freely expressed informing and challenging my mind.

You know who you are.



EveMCooke said:


> Thanks for your reply. I have sent you a P M. There is a huge difference between negligence and incompetence and deliberately killing people.


----------



## Lostie (May 2, 2013)

I haven't been following this thread but asked my journalist son what the "big" thing in Sept for the USA might be. He has just sent me this. Phew :thumbup: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/34004081/nasa-asteroid-capable-of-wiping-out-us-wont-hit-us-on-15-september-probably

I love, just love, the word "probably"


----------



## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

SQM said:


> pardon me but was it ever determined what was to happen in Sept?


Apart from the same old arguments taking over threads and going round and round?

In case you missed this:



Moe C said:


> The Big List Of 33 Things That Are Going To Happen In September 2015
> 
> Huh? Oh yeah, that's the subject of this thread.
> 
> http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/the-big-list-of-33-things-that-are-going-to-happen-in-september-2015


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

That is a joke, right?

Your source is a website that sells emergency supplies.


----------



## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

DGreen said:


> That is a joke, right?
> 
> Your source is a website that sells emergency supplies.


So what? Tell me which event scheduled for each day of Sept is false.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Moe C said:


> So what? Tell me which event scheduled for each day of Sept is false.


There are places where delusional people can get help. Check yourself in on October 1st.


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Moe C said:


> So what? Tell me which event scheduled for each day of Sept is false.


heheheheh...


----------



## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

DGreen said:


> There are places where delusional people can get help. Check yourself in on October 1st.


From the site:
September 1  This marks the beginning of FEMAs annual National Preparedness Month 
September 7  Labor Day
September 11  The 14th anniversary (7+7) of 9/11 
September 11  The last day of trading on Wall Street before the end of the Shemitah year
----------------------------------

These dates are not factual? Will Labour Day be cancelled this year? Will the Pope change his mind about visiting? SQM asked what was happening in Sept and this is a calendar of events.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Moe C said:


> So what? Tell me which event scheduled for each day of Sept is false.


it sounds very ho-hum to me. I like the opening up of a new dimension the best. I hope, if I am in it, I will have no back pain and am my neck looks better.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> There are places where delusional people can get help. Check yourself in on October 1st.


Delusional people are the most fun. Don't trash them. I rather hear delusions than someone kvetching about their aches and pains (like I just did).


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

SQM said:


> Delusional people are the most fun. Don't trash them. I rather hear delusions than someone kvetching about their aches and pains (like I just did).


Ya gotta wonder where those who trash, get their expertise from......


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Well that's what taxes are, we all contribute what we _can_, and it becomes _OUR_ money.
> 
> The question then becomes a better investment. A billion dollars for another redundant plane, or back to THE PEOPLE to ensure the economy and society doesn't collapse from the weight of a destitute population?
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Priorities need to be set.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SnoopyDoop said:


> And yet he's still a proverbial brain trust compared to any of your GOP nominees.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Hard to argue with that.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Moe C said:


> From the site:
> September 1  This marks the beginning of FEMAs annual National Preparedness Month
> September 7  Labor Day
> September 11  The 14th anniversary (7+7) of 9/11
> ...


The conclusions as to the "meaning" of these events is the delusional part. The IMPLICATION is that one should stock up on emergency supplies for the impending disasters based on some magical thinking. What a pile of tripe.

But good marketing if one aims to make money on people's fears and bizarre beliefs.


----------



## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

SQM said:


> it sounds very ho-hum to me. I like the opening up of a new dimension the best. I hope, if I am in it, I will have no back pain and am my neck looks better.


Let me point out the new dimension stuff was NOT part of the calendar. The only speculative date on the calendar had to do with Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky's prediction. Everything else was factual.

SQM, you'd think all that hanging would do wonders for your neck and back.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> That is a joke, right?
> 
> Your source is a website that sells emergency supplies.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Yeah but.....


----------



## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

DGreen said:


> The conclusions as to the "meaning" of these events is the delusional part. The IMPLICATION is that one should stock up on emergency supplies for the impending disasters based on some magical thinking. What a pile of tripe.


My pantry is empty. I am, however, nervous about the stock market.


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Moe C said:


> My pantry is empty. I am, however, nervous about the stock market.


Will that help?


----------



## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Will that help?


What, will being nervous help the situation, or will it fill my pantry?


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Moe C said:


> What, will being nervous help the situation, or will it fill my pantry?


Either or.


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

Moe C said:


> My pantry is empty. I am, however, nervous about the stock market.


I can tell you what will happen with the stock market. It will go up a little, it will go down a little, it will go up a lot, it will go down a lot, it will go up a little, it will go up some more, it will go down...you get the picture.


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

cattdages said:


> I can tell you what will happen with the stock market. It will go up a little, it will go down a little, it will go up a lot, it will go down a lot, it will go up a little, it will go up some more, it will go down...you get the picture.


Not if something big happens in Sept.


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Not if something big happens in Sept.


I thought we had established that nothing much was happening in September? Barring acts of nature of course.


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

cattdages said:


> I thought we had established that nothing much was happening in September? Barring acts of nature of course.


Thinking always gets me into trouble. LOL


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

RE Stock Market ups & downs.

Only 5 year+ investments should be considered for the stock market. Large dividend paying stocks have least risk. Using just a few stocks is riskier. One company's stock, particularly the one you work, for is riskiest of all.

Never try to time the market no matter what the 'experts' say. When you have invested in a fund of quality stocks, sell only when you need the money. IMHO



Moe C said:


> My pantry is empty. I am, however, nervous about the stock market.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

cattdages said:


> I can tell you what will happen with the stock market. It will go up a little, it will go down a little, it will go up a lot, it will go down a lot, it will go up a little, it will go up some more, it will go down...you get the picture.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Thinking always gets me into trouble. LOL


I know right!?!?


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

cattdages said:


> I know right!?!?


Pretty much.


----------



## Rebecca O (Aug 18, 2015)

WHAT GOOD WILL IT DO TO WORRY?
I PUT MY FAITH AND TRUST IN GOD.
HE HAS ALWAYS--HE IS ---AND ALWAYS WILL TAKE CARE OF ME.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Rebecca O said:


> WHAT GOOD WILL IT DO TO WORRY?
> I PUT MY FAITH AND TRUST IN GOD.
> HE HAS ALWAYS--HE IS ---AND ALWAYS WILL TAKE CARE OF ME.


I'll take care of myself, thank you.

But it would be interesting to know what God has done for anyone in concrete, provable terms.


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I'll take care of myself, thank you.
> 
> But it would be interesting to know what God has done for anyone in concrete, provable terms.


You might not want to know.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

WindingRoad said:


> You might not want to know.


"Concrete" and "provable" should restrict the responses.


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

DGreen said:


> "Concrete" and "provable" should restrict the responses.


Not should.


----------



## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

The nervousness over the market has to do with the last two Shemitahs. Considering a Shemitah year is only one out of seven and the last one ended Sept 29, 2008, the one before Sept 17, 2001, both Elul 29 (last day of the Shemitah year) and both had record market drops, what are the statistical odds, I wonder? If it were up to me, I'd just move any market-related funds to cash for awhile, but I don't live alone and I don't wish to appear delusional, even if I am. BTW, this Shemitah stuff doesn't have to happen on Elul 29--the period at the end of the Shemitah year is the time of most activiity. Why are stock market crashes usually in Sept or Oct, anyway?


----------



## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

DGreen said:


> "Concrete" and "provable" should restrict the responses.


Well that's the problem isn't it? If one believes, everything is concrete and provable, but if one does not believe, no proof will ever be concrete enough. No one will never be able to provide enough proof for me to believe, and every proof will be fuel for a believer's belief. Faith is ephemeral and if you have it - lucky you, but I do not.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cattdages said:


> Well that's the problem isn't it? If one believes, everything is concrete and provable, but if one does not believe, no proof will ever be concrete enough. No one will never be able to provide enough proof for me to believe, and every proof will be fuel for a believer's belief. Faith is ephemeral and if you have it - lucky you, but I do not.


Belief does not equal proof.

But you are correct, those who believe will believe.

I prefer to live life in the realm of reality.


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

cattdages said:


> Well that's the problem isn't it? If one believes, everything is concrete and provable, but if one does not believe, no proof will ever be concrete enough. No one will never be able to provide enough proof for me to believe, and every proof will be fuel for a believer's belief. Faith is ephemeral and if you have it - lucky you, but I do not.


None of us can even prove we exist, so it's all moot anyway.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm sure DGreen can take the truth. Remember the provable part.



WindingRoad said:


> You might not want to know.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

WindingRoad said:


> Not should.


 :evil: You could have answered already if you weren't intent on parsing a simple sentence.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Because the Stock Market and Wall Street are afraid of falling leaves.



Moe C said:


> The nervousness over the market has to do with the last two Shemitahs. Considering a Shemitah year is only one out of seven and the last one ended Sept 29, 2008, the one before Sept 17, 2001, both Elul 29 (last day of the Shemitah year) and both had record market drops, what are the statistical odds, I wonder? If it were up to me, I'd just move any market-related funds to cash for awhile, but I don't live alone and I don't wish to appear delusional, even if I am. BTW, this Shemitah stuff doesn't have to happen on Elul 29--the period at the end of the Shemitah year is the time of most activiity. Why are stock market crashes usually in Sept or Oct, anyway?


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

damemary said:


> :evil: You could have answered already if you weren't intent on parsing a simple sentence.


I could have but I didn't. Don't have to.. see.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Delusional people are the most fun. Don't trash them. I rather hear delusions than someone kvetching about their aches and pains (like I just did).


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

WindingRoad said:


> Ya gotta wonder where those who trash, get their expertise from......


In this case, by walking the walk.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

cattdages said:


> I thought we had established that nothing much was happening in September? Barring acts of nature of course.


Rupert Murdoch predicted yesterday that we're staring down the barrel of another global financial crisis. Maybe in September (my suggestion not his).


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Rupert Murdoch predicted yesterday that we're staring down the barrel of another global financial crisis. Maybe in September (my suggestion not his).


We just had a bad stock tremor today - the market dropped over 5%. This may be a warning for a larger drop. China is in big financial trouble - I don't know why. But now that we are global, this will surely affect us.


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

SnoopyDoop said:


> Is there any conservative that hasn't predicted that we're staring down the barrel of another financial crisis at any minute?


I can't think of a single one. They're all about austerity, but what that really means is punishing poor people, and more particular, poor people of color. Our favorite conservative KFN thinks paying taxes to the government is theft because she can't pick and choose who should get the money. Really, they need to be paying attention to the money that goes to defense spending, or in other words, people like Dick Cheney.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

ouijian said:


> I can't think of a single one. They're all about austerity, but what that really means is punishing poor people, and more particular, poor people of color. Our favorite conservative KFN thinks paying taxes to the government is theft because she can't pick and choose who should get the money. Really, they need to be paying attention to the money that goes to defense spending, or in other words, people like Dick Cheney.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

quote=ouijian]I can't think of a single one. They're all about austerity, but what that really means is punishing poor people, and more particular, poor people of color. Our favorite conservative KFN thinks paying taxes to the government is theft because she can't pick and choose who should get the money. Really, they need to be paying attention to the money that goes to defense spending, or in other words, people like Dick Cheney.[/quote]

It's as if you don't listen to a word I say. You refuse to hear! I have NEVER been about punishing poor people! I've been about eliminating poverty by punishing those in the government, who sustain it. Your own words, mention defense spending and dick cheney, and YET you refuse to admit that the problem and solution, lie with the government. You criticize any mention of government responsibility. You call others names, saying they are anti-government. Well, its the government who's created the situation. The laws and regulations have been taylor made for the 1%, but you refuse to see it. You refuse to see that both parties have allowed the 1% to sweep up all of the wealth in the world.

The solution doesn't lie in welfare. Welfare keeps people in poverty. It allows the 1% to keep taking it all. The people think their government is helping them, instead of seeing that their government is complicit in their poverty. If the government were doing its job, the people wouldn't be living in poverty. The people would be employed, buying goods, thus creating more jobs. It's your government that has written the laws, that allowed the 1% to take the jobs away! I don't want austerity, I want prosperity! The US consumes more goods than any other country. If those goods were manufactured here, there would be prosperity.

But you continue to defend your government, because you can't see beyond the battle between the dems and the reps. You believe the lie, that the two parties are different. You refuse to see that nothing changes, because BOTH parties are bought and paid for! So yes, austerity is coming, but it won't be my fault! It will be your fault, because you refuse to see that it's been planned all along. Your insouciance has allowed this to happen!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> quote=ouijian]I can't think of a single one. They're all about austerity, but what that really means is punishing poor people, and more particular, poor people of color. Our favorite conservative KFN thinks paying taxes to the government is theft because she can't pick and choose who should get the money. Really, they need to be paying attention to the money that goes to defense spending, or in other words, people like Dick Cheney.


It's as if you don't listen to a word I say. You refuse to hear! I have NEVER been about punishing poor people! I've been about eliminating poverty by punishing those in the government, who sustain it. Your own words, mention defense spending and dick cheney, and YET you refuse to admit that the problem and solution, lie with the government. You criticize any mention of government responsibility. You call others names, saying they are anti-government. Well, its the government who's created the situation. The laws and regulations have been taylor made for the 1%, but you refuse to see it. You refuse to see that both parties have allowed the 1% to sweep up all of the wealth in the world.

The solution doesn't lie in welfare. Welfare keeps people in poverty. It allows the 1% to keep taking it all. The people think their government is helping them, instead of seeing that their government is complicit in their poverty. If the government were doing its job, the people wouldn't be living in poverty. The people would be employed, buying goods, thus creating more jobs. It's your government that has written the laws, that allowed the 1% to take the jobs away! I don't want austerity, I want prosperity! The US consumes more goods than any other country. If those goods were manufactured here, there would be prosperity.

But you continue to defend your government, because you can't see beyond the battle between the dems and the reps. You believe the lie, that the two parties are different. You refuse to see that nothing changes, because BOTH parties are bought and paid for! So yes, austerity is coming, but it won't be my fault! It will be your fault, because you refuse to see that it's been planned all along. Your insouciance has allowed this to happen![/quote]

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I have nothing to add other than Nebs gets it.


----------



## Larailayda (Jun 17, 2014)

Hello from Turkey&#127759; Some people have become rather frightened over here, when the F&#305;rat River (The Euphrates) began to take the hue of reddishness. 
Lara


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoopy said:


> You're leaving the discussion because you got caught contradicting yourself, first saying that capitalism was working just fine until government got involved,,and then claiming you never said you were against government regulation, you were just mad that there wasn't enough government involved ensuring the collections of those fines.
> 
> You just proved to us that like most conservatives, you just regurgitate RW talking points without knowing what they really mean.
> 
> ...


I left because I got tired of you and others, twisting my words. You can't just have a discussion about anything. For you, it's just a game, to see if you can "catch" somebody saying something, that you can use as a weapon. I'm tired of it! If you have something to add to the conversation, add it! But no, not you! You're just here because you take pleasure in ripping people to shreds. You really ARE a troll!

I SAID that capitalism worked just fine before government got involved. I meant it! It used to be that people traded goods for something of like value. They bartered goods or traded goods for gold. When the government took us off the gold standard, and started printing worthless fiat currency, that's when capitalism ceased to exist!

At that point, corruption exploded. The government could spend as much as they wanted, and they did. They favored the corporations with sweetheart deals and received "favors" in exchange. Regulations became necessary because the corporations weren't playing by the rules anymore. But, the regulations were ineffective because the corporations could pay off anybody they needed to. So they polluted our country, sent the jobs overseas, and paid their employees a substandard wage. And they got away with it, because they own the politicians who run our government.

And YES! I'm saying that the government IS the problem! They're the ones who make the laws and regulations! And they've sold us out!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoopy said:


> Noone has ever claimed that 'the solution" lies in welfare. It's just something that has to be there when the economy doesn't lend itself to allowing more people to help themselves, or for people who, for a variety of reasons CAN'T ever get to a place where they're self-sufficient. Because there will ALWAYS be a certain segment of society that can't self-support.
> 
> Do you have any unbiased evidence or studies that welfare creates this supposed cycle of poverty?
> 
> ...


The economy is in the condition it's in, as a direct result of laws and treaties put in place by our government. They're the ones who went along with the corporations, and allowed the jobs to go overseas. They lied to the rest of us and said that it would be good for all of us. It was only good for the corporations and the 1% that own them! And then, they turned around and did it again! Now we have the TPP, to destroy what little is left of our country. They won't be happy until all of us, are serving them. Because pretty soon, the only jobs that will be left will be restaurant jobs and healthcare jobs.

I have NEVER spoken of " tough love" or "throwing bodies to inspire them to swim or sink". Those are YOUR WORDS, NOT MINE! That's exactly what I was talking about when I said that you twist my words! I have always advocated putting the people to work, so they wouldn't have to be on welfare! But you can't find anything wrong with that, so you twist my words in an attempt to make them as ugly as yours! You don't get to twist my words!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Quote snoopy:
Yes, we've all heard that shallow Reaganesque talking point "Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem."

Here's the thing, Government ITSELF is not the problem, ineffective government is the problem.

Claiming that government is the problem is the lazy thinking persons excuse to do nothing so that they can be the perpetual complainers.



Government IS the problem! You thought that obama was gonna come in and fix things. He's fixed nothing! He's just made things worse! 





No, you believe the lie that there is no difference.

It's is our lot that argued the same thing during Bush vs Gore. And guess what. Bush lied us into war and loosened corporate regulations... something a Gore administration NEVER would have done.



Guess what?!? obama lied too! He said he'd end all of the wars. We're involved in more wars now than we were when bush was in!




You comment on rape is typical of you. Disgusting! And doesn't deserve a response!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

My Friend , ie, SnoopyDoopy,

Do you knit or crochet?


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

SQM said:


> My Friend , ie, SnoopyDoopy,
> 
> Do you knit or crochet?


Trolls don't craft....


----------



## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

SnoopyDoopy said:


> Except it's one of YOUR kind (conservative) that originally said it, and it IS a valid metaphor to your POV.
> 
> As I pointed out, as a citizen ,your argument is for us all lay back and take it because "they're all the same" and "everyone and everything is rotten" there's nothing that can be done about it anyway.
> 
> The worst part is that you keep going back and asking for more when you support conservative.


Lisa give it up.....


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

WindingRoad said:


> Trolls don't craft....


Excuse me but they certainly do.... I was at a restaurant this afternoon and over my table was a huge sign - 'mean people are ugly'. So I will stay pretty and not complete my thought.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

SQM said:


> Excuse me but they certainly do.... I was at a restaurant this afternoon and over my table was a huge sign - 'mean people are ugly'. So I will stay pretty and not complete my thought.


Suit yourself. She's still a troll.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

SnoopyDoopy said:


> I knit. I just never got into crocheting, I don't know why.
> 
> I like knitting socks especially. They can be challenging enough using various techniques, but don't take too long to complete.
> 
> I use both dpn's and two circulars for them. I'm a RH 'flicker". (sounds like a type of bird).


I tried socks and failed regrettably. Post a pic of your socks. If you do it under pics let us know the name of the thread.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoopy said:


> Except it's one of YOUR kind (conservative) that originally said it, and it IS a valid metaphor to your POV.
> 
> As I pointed out, as a citizen ,your argument is for us all lay back and take it because "they're all the same" and "everyone and everything is rotten" there's nothing that can be done about it anyway.
> 
> The worst part is that you keep going back and asking for more when you support conservative.


On my Nexus tablet, when I hit "quote reply" it will only pick up the last quote, like this! If you insist on breaking your comments into little pieces, then I can't respond to them, by hitting "quote reply".


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Quote snoopydog:


2. No, Obama's done a HELL of A LOT for the better.

2014 was the best year of job creation in this century.

Prevented a Bush depression and improved the economy quite dramatically IF you're aware of and admit to just how deep a hole we were in. It's a near miracle that we've improved this much

He's protected gay Americans and the American military against bigotry and helped bring about their civil right to marry.

He's passed Obamacare and proved we can expand health insurance coverage and shrink the deficit. Has provided people like you the ability to have insurance before you were kicked off the one you were on or scammed by scam plans ... and made it impossible for you to be denied due to age and/or preexisting conditions.

Helped to restore Americas reputation around the world as a global leader that does the right thing in world affairs, at least according to the rest of the world.

There has been much more done about the use of renewable energy than most people realize. The share of U.S. energy provided by wind and solar has grown dramatically.

He's also made HUGE strides on energy conservation, especially via fuel-efficiency standards.

Cut taxes for 95% of working families.

Recovered the economy, It took what seemed like a long time to regain pre-crisis average income. But that was actually faster than the historical average. And did Obama's policies contribute to the recovery? Yes, without question. And the main reason we didn't do better is because the original stimulus should have been both bigger and longer. That was NOT due to liberals. It's conservatism that slowed the recovery.

Nominated Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan to the Supreme Court.
and auppointed the most diverse Cabinet in history, including more women than any other incoming president.

Eliminated federal funding for abstinence-only education, and rescinded the global gag rule. Teen pregnancies have since reached it's lowest rate in over 40 years.

Loosened the rules and allowed the 14 states that legalized medical marijuana to regulate themselves without federal interference.

Strengthened the Endangered Species Act.

The list goes on and on and on ...



The job numbers are fixed! They've changed the way they calculate the unemployed. They're only counting those who are receiving unemployment benefits. Those who's benefits have run out, are no longer counted! It makes the numbers LOOK better.

obama didn't prevent a bush depression or improve the economy. The federal reserve took the interest rates to 0%. Banks could borrow and lend, for free. The fed created that money out of thin air, and loaned it to our government. It became OUR debt. WE didn't get much, for our money. This creation of money and debt, has done nothing but postpone the depression. In case you hadn't noticed, the global economy is starting to collapse. Stock market crashes are happening in 25 countries. We're in a currency war with China. And there isn't anything else the fed can do. You can't lower interest rates, any lower than 0%. The commodities market is in collapse. Oil prices are in collapse. The S&P has dropped 60% this year, the highest drop since 1993. It's only a matter of time, til the house of cards collapses!

As to tax cuts? Our insurance premiums have tripled and our deductibles have risen, wages are stagnant, and inflation has caused prices to rise, so that MORE than erases any tax cuts we've seen! 

As to obamacare? See above!

As to energy conservation? He shut down the coal fired plants, so our utility bills have doubled!

As to the rest of your list? YOU may see those things as positives, I see them as negatives!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Quote snoopydog: Guess what, you're doing it again. You support the people who've $#!t all over the national lawn and then blame the black manmfor not being able to clean it up fast enough.

If McCain had been elected, we'd be in a third world war and in all liklihood there would've been a nuclear bomb already detonated. and that's not hyperbole.

Secondly, Obama did not lie. I don't even think YOU believe he's a war monger.

Again you need to hold accountable the ones that started the war (and that wasn't limited to neo-cons although mostly the GOP), and the ones who sabotaged and fought against his efforts to do more to end the wars.


I DO NOT SUPPORT ANY OF THESE PEOPLE! Why do you insist on saying that I do? 

It's funny that you're saying that if mc cain had been elected, we'd have been in world war III, because we have NEVER been closer to world war, than we are now! Putin has warned America, that if we don't get out of Ukraine, they'll go to war with us. And he's said, he would use nuclear weapons. China threatened to go to war with us when we were interfering with the Senkaku Island thing. North Korea is threatening to fire a nuclear weapon at us, if the negotiations (today) didn't resolve the issues they're having with South Korea. Nearly every country in the world, hates us! Our allies are tired of us, dragging them into war. So, you might want to rethink that. I believe that obama is as much a war monger as any other. In actuality, I believe that the real war mongers, are the puppet masters.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Quote snoopydog: Yup, here we go with the Palinesque whining about 'gotcha questions', as if asking what she read was a 'gotcha'.

Same for you. If you don't want to be held accountable for contradicting yourself, then don't contradict yourself. 

If anyone's playing a game it's you, who will say one thing to 'win' the short term argument, and then claim the opposite to lwin' the next short term argument.

Instead of whining, how about just being honest and consistent?

And I have added to the conversation. But I reserve my right to call you out on your 'inconsistencies.



I've not been inconsistent. You accuse me of supporting the reps, and then call me inconsistent. I have never said that i support the reps. Ive said the opposite! You take everything I say and twist it around. Like when I said that regulation was not effective, you accused me of being against regulation. That's not true! I never said that! I said that it was not effective because the fines were too small and the corporations profited from going against the regulations. That does not infer that I'm against regulation.

It's not whining, to call you out on your lies!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Quote snoopydog: . and then you went onto whine about how governme t wasn't doing enough to regulate.



I never said that the "government wasn't doing enough to regulate". I SAID that the fines weren't enough if the corporations made billions of dollars, in spite of the fines.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Quote snoopydog:actually, switching to the gold standard is when our economy became more stable.



Ummmm, we didn't swith TO the gold standard. We went OFF the gold standard when nixon was president. If we had stayed ON the gold standard, we wouldn't be 18 TRILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoopy said:


> So, there should be no government at all?
> 
> If government is the problem ,then the solution would be to have no government .. right?


I have NEVER said that! I think we need to get rid of the corruption. We need STRONG penalties for anyone in government who takes money from anyone.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoopy said:


> No, individual politicians did that, not the government in and of itself.


Seriously?!? You just HAVE to disagree. The politicians ARE the government. They act on behalf of the government.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Quote snoopydog:I didn't twist them, I clarified them.

But it is what you're describing. It's what it boils down to.

This is part of your problem, You think that if you talk around something, it won't be recognized for what you're saying.

If you don't believe in welfare, BY DEFAULT, then you're talking about "tough love" 'sink or swim" or "survival of the fittest" politics.




You do not get to "clarify" my words! My words are mine! 

I NEVER said that I don't believe in welfare! So how can you declare anything by default? I have said that we shouldn't have to pay welfare for millions of people. This was also followed by the idea, that if the government had not allowed the jobs to go away, we wouldn't have millions of people on welfare. I have always said that we should support those who couldn't support themselves, but that able bodied people should be allowed to support themselves. IF the jobs had not been taken overseas, they'd be able to do that! Stop twisting my words!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Quote snoopydog:No, when you attack the existence of a welfare program itself, you're doing more than "advocating for jobs"





I have NEVER attacked the existence of welfare! Stop lying!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoopy said:


> That happens with everyone here, that's why we learn to utilize the quoting tags. After two years, I would've thought you got the hang of it by now.
> 
> I will continue to use multiple quotes because it's the most direct way to help people know to which part of the post I'm specifically responding.
> 
> So, I guess we'll just have to deal with your messed up posts.


I don't know what "quoting tags" are. I've only ever needed to use "quote reply". So I guess if you'll continue to use multiple quotes, I'll continue to type in " quote".


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> Was the cause given and documented?


changed my mind. Hi Dame -- how are you doing.

I am NOT going to get involved with this conversation!-- nearly did. Bye everbody. Have fun.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SnoopyDoopy said:


> They changed in 1994. So the comparison to Bush's numbers are accurate.


I never said that bush's numbers were or weren't, accurate. It's irrelevant.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Hi, Shirley! How are you doing? I hope you've been well.


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## Artbarn (Aug 1, 2014)

SnoopyDoopy said:


> That happens with everyone here, that's why we learn to utilize the quoting tags. After two years, I would've thought you got the hang of it by now.
> 
> I will continue to use multiple quotes because it's the most direct way to help people know to which part of the post I'm specifically responding.
> 
> So, I guess we'll just have to deal with your messed up posts.


 :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Artbarn said:


> :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


 :lol:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

This assessment of the Welfare State is close to mine.

I don't believe that the USA would have survived the Great Depression without FDR's leadership. And I don't fool myself. This last recession has created new risks with the disappearance of the Middle Class and its destruction by the highly favored 1%.



SnoopyDoopy said:


> Noone has ever claimed that 'the solution" lies in welfare. It's just something that has to be there when the economy doesn't lend itself to allowing more people to help themselves, or for people who, for a variety of reasons CAN'T ever get to a place where they're self-sufficient. Because there will ALWAYS be a certain segment of society that can't self-support.
> 
> Do you have any unbiased evidence or studies that welfare creates this supposed cycle of poverty?
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SnoopyDoopy said:


> No, it really is your fault. Your "solution" is the same as Clayton William's solution for rape: "'If rape is inevitable, lie back and enjoy it',"
> 
> We're F'd because they're all the same and it was planned all along etc, is the same essential ignorant argument that Clayton Williams made.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: This member has expressed much to consider.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

HI from Arizona USA. How does this frighten you? Do you depend on this river for water to drink? Do you have treatment facilities? Please inform us.

A reddish hue in a river indicates to me that iron in the soil is included in runoff.



Larailayda said:


> Hello from Turkey🌏 Some people have become rather frightened over here, when the Fırat River (The Euphrates) began to take the hue of reddishness.
> Lara


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I firmly believe that President Obama will be valued highly by history. He is a current victim of political rivals so it will take time to evaluate. IMHO



SnoopyDoopy said:


> Except it's one of YOUR kind (conservative) that originally said it, and it IS a valid metaphor to your POV.
> 
> As I pointed out, as a citizen ,your argument is for us all lay back and take it because "they're all the same" and "everyone and everything is rotten" there's nothing that can be done about it anyway.
> 
> The worst part is that you keep going back and asking for more when you support conservative.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think crafting is a creative outlet I'd miss very much. I did needlepoint for years and loved it, but how many pillow covers can I find a place for? Then I crocheted many Aran afghans. Finally I taught myself knitting a few years ago and I love it. Must say Socks confuse me, and dpn's leave a mess. Work to do.



SnoopyDoopy said:


> I knit. I just never got into crocheting, I don't know why.
> 
> I like knitting socks especially. They can be challenging enough using various techniques, but don't take too long to complete.
> 
> I use both dpn's and two circulars for them. I'm a RH 'flicker". (sounds like a type of bird).


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The concept of no government:

No defense. Crumbling infrastructure. Unreliable water and electricity. Limited or non-existing services.

This chaos is too much to risk.



SnoopyDoopy said:


> So, there should be no government at all?
> 
> If government is the problem ,then the solution would be to have no government .. right?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I must step in with an opinion. Differing styles and debating skills separate the discussion. I think it is time to separate and go to your corners. IMHO



SnoopyDoopy said:


> No, when you attack the existence of a welfare program itself, you're doing more than "advocating for jobs"
> 
> We ALL advocate for jobs for people who CAN work. There isn't ONE liberal who doesn't think that people should work when they have access to good paying jobs.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Hi Shirley. I'm stepping away too. Thanks for the reminder.



Designer1234 said:


> changed my mind. Hi Dame -- how are you doing.
> 
> I am NOT going to get involved with this conversation!-- nearly did. Bye everbody. Have fun.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That's your opinion, of course. It's not mine. End.



joeysomma said:


> Actually FDR's interference caused the depression to last longer


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Snoopy Doop said:


> Well, usually one side (mostly) fought for higher fines and the other side (mostly) fought for less.
> 
> Prove it!
> 
> I think you just make stuff up.


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

damemary said:


> How does this frighten you? Do you depend on this river for water to drink? Do you have treatment facilities? Please inform us.
> A reddish hue in a river indicates to me that iron in the soil is included in runoff.


The Euphrates River is involved in biblical prophecy. The river Nile ran red at the time of the Exodus. It is considered to be a sign.

I knew at one time why this happens, but forget. Easy enough to look up. In fact, all the plagues of Egypt were explained by natural laws. 
There's no contradiction here for those who believe God sends signs (I don't), since God can certainly use science.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Quote snoopydog: You advocate for their positions. 

You refuse to say who you'd actually vote for because you'd have to defend him or her ... and it's easier to not have to stand FOR something ... plus it'd mean you'd have to actually say something positive and your whole schtick is to find fault .. not solutions.






I advocate SOME of their positions. At this point, I wouldn't vote for ANY of the candidates. I've said it before but you keep making stuff up. 

As to finding fault? I'm the only one here who's offered any solutions. You keep defending the status quo. I'll say it again...there can be no recovery without jobs! That's number one. We need to void the trade treaties, and put tariffs on imports. 

Number two, rewrite the tax code, so that it doesnt favor the 1%. We need to eliminate all tax deductions, loopholes and tax shelters. They do not benefit the poor, and offer very little to the middle class. They were written by the wealthy, for the wealthy. 

We need to stop printing money. It causes inflation, which only hurts the poor and middle classes. Prices go up but wages don't go up enough to keep up. We keep falling further behind.

We need to get corporations out of our healthcare. We've done absolutely nothing, to bring down the cost of healthcare. We've simply forced the people to buy insurance, which makes the 1% even richer. If we don't reduce the costs, we'll go bankrupt. Right now, the insurance corporations and the medical corporations are making deals among themselves. Well, the SAME people are the majority owners of BOTH! So who's protecting us? 


These are things I've been saying from the start. You're the one who is negative. You criticize everything I say, without EVER offering a solution, yourself! So put up, or shut up.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for the explanation.



Moe C said:


> The Euphrates River is involved in biblical prophecy. The river Nile ran red at the time of the Exodus. It is considered to be a sign.
> 
> I knew at one time why this happens, but forget. Easy enough to look up. In fact, all the plagues of Egypt were explained by natural laws.
> There's no contradiction here for those who believe God sends signs (I don't), since God can certainly use science.


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

damemary said:


> Hi Shirley. I'm stepping away too. Thanks for the reminder.


Me too. Hasta la vista, baby!


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## Larailayda (Jun 17, 2014)

damemary said:


> HI from Arizona USA. How does this frighten you? Do you depend on this river for water to drink? Do you have treatment facilities? Please inform us.
> 
> A reddish hue in a river indicates to me that iron in the soil is included in runoff.


Hello DameMary🌞 it frightens me personally because many businesses are doing terrible harm to the river due to mining for gold and ill planned construction of factories that dump their waste there. While we don't get our drinking water from The Euphrates, there are pure springs in the area that local farmers drink from, another source of worry, should they become contaminated in the future.
The earth there is rich in iron and minerals, hence your explanation makes great sense.
Best, Lara💚


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## Larailayda (Jun 17, 2014)

Moe C said:


> The Euphrates River is involved in biblical prophecy. The river Nile ran red at the time of the Exodus. It is considered to be a sign.
> 
> I knew at one time why this happens, but forget. Easy enough to look up. In fact, all the plagues of Egypt were explained by natural laws.
> There's no contradiction here for those who believe God sends signs (I don't), since God can certainly use science.


Dear Moe, yes, that is what frightened a portion of the local population i believe.
Best, Lara💚


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Old news Joey. I know I said I was out of here but I couldn't let you slide on this piece of misinformation without providing an alternate viewpoint.

http://www.salon.com/2009/02/02/the_new_deal_worked/


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Salon is a liberal, progressive news website created by David Talbot in 1995 and part of Salon Media Group. It focuses on U.S. politics and current affairs, and on reviews and articles about music, books and films.
> 
> UCLA is definitely not conservative.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Salon is a liberal, progressive news website created by David Talbot in 1995 and part of Salon Media Group. It focuses on U.S. politics and current affairs, and on reviews and articles about music, books and films.
> 
> UCLA is definitely not conservative.
> 
> ...


It's easy to second guess after the fact. Looks like your economists are using different data than our economists.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2009/03/30/was-the-new-deal-a-bust.html


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's hard to stay away. Thanks for the information, not that anything will change minds at this point.



ouijian said:


> Old news Joey. I know I said I was out of here but I couldn't let you slide on this piece of misinformation without providing an alternate viewpoint.
> 
> http://www.salon.com/2009/02/02/the_new_deal_worked/


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't think crafting is a requirement for membership although it is common. Snoopy's comments are thoughtful and intelligent, although not all will agree with them. I know you know these things. Why do you ask the question?



SQM said:


> My Friend , ie, SnoopyDoopy,
> 
> Do you knit or crochet?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Many trolls do craft.



WindingRoad said:


> Trolls don't craft....


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

WindingRoad said:


> Lisa give it up.....


 :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: Pointing a finger leaves four fingers pointing back at you.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I've never been successful with socks either. If Snoopy has pictures and feels like sharing, I'm sure she will. I'd never ask.



SQM said:


> I tried socks and failed regrettably. Post a pic of your socks. If you do it under pics let us know the name of the thread.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think I saw these when you first posted them. I remember noting the length. You are a sock master.



Snoopy Doop said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I do post pics but under a different username and have been for years. Because I'm so contentious, we know of certain people who would take the opportunity to insult.
> 
> ...


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Joey, Nebs, I am curious why you guys are so mistrustful of government and at the same time place your trust in an unfettered market. How is it that the market, in your eyes, can do no wrong as long as it is left to its own devices, yet the government is inherently evil? 

One thing that puzzles me about your viewpoint is that at the same time you hold this opinion, you also espouse your fundamental belief in democracy and our constitution. Yet, the embodiment of democracy and the constitution is supposed to be the government, and you hate the government. According to you, the government is incapable of solving problems. The government is supposed to represent the people. You vote for people who openly flog their hatred of government. On some level, this attitude seems to reflect some self loathing, because we are the government in a collective sense. The embodiment of the United States is the government, not the market. If you believe that the entity you have elected is not capable of solving problems, why bother with it? Perhaps we should have anarchy instead. You view shows a basic distrust of human beings, yet a basic trust of an abstract entity. Magical thinking I believe is the best phrase to describe your point of view. Either that, or pure cynicism.

Now, I totally agree that government has gone off the rails for a variety of reasons, number one being Citizens United. And in fact, herein lies the contradiction. Our government is bought and paid for by corporations. Yes, indeed. Corruption. By the very entities you think should be free to determine the economic policies of our country. How do you think these awful trade agreements were devised? It was certainly not politicians in a vacuum. It was politicians aided and abetted by lobbyists, bought and paid for by corporations, who are working to represent the wishes of ..... Corporations! Corporations, via lobbying and massive campaign contributions, are the underlying corrupting factors in government, and these are the very abstract, nonhuman, legally constructed to be liability free, entities you put your trust in. So, there just seems to me to be an inherent contradiction in your placing your trust in corporations and assuming that the invisible hand that controls the markets are going to always do the right thing. Even Alan Greenspan, in 2007, acknowledged that this was magical thinking. He was shocked, I tell you, shocked, to realize that nefarious entities within this pristine market could deliberately pervert it. Talk about being idealistic. By comparison, liberal economists, like Krugman, Stieglitz, De Long, El-Erian, etc., are the realists.

The other thing that bugs me about your viewpoint is that markets are unpredictable and can send entire nations to the brink of disaster. I personally do not feel comfortable ceding my life to the whims of a corporation run by someone like, say, Donald Trump.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

ouijian said:


> Joey, Nebs, I am curious why you guys are so mistrustful of government and at the same time place your trust in an unfettered market. How is it that the market, in your eyes, can do no wrong as long as it is left to its own devices, yet the government is inherently evil?
> 
> One thing that puzzles me about your viewpoint is that at the same time you hold this opinion, you also espouse your fundamental belief in democracy and our constitution. Yet, the embodiment of democracy and the constitution is supposed to be the government, and you hate the government. According to you, the government is incapable of solving problems. The government is supposed to represent the people. You vote for people who openly flog their hatred of government. On some level, this attitude seems to reflect some self loathing, because we are the government in a collective sense. The embodiment of the United States is the government, not the market. If you believe that the entity you have elected is not capable of solving problems, why bother with it? Perhaps we should have anarchy instead. You view shows a basic distrust of human beings, yet a basic trust of an abstract entity. Magical thinking I believe is the best phrase to describe your point of view. Either that, or pure cynicism.
> 
> ...


I strongly, strongly agree.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> I don't think crafting is a requirement for membership although it is common. Snoopy's comments are thoughtful and intelligent, although not all will agree with them. I know you know these things. Why do you ask the question?


I was just curious since she never talks about her knitting. Turns out she is an expert sock knitter. Maybe I can talk her into teaching me a tearless way of doing socks. I tried it once and it was soooo sad.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> I think I saw these when you first posted them. I remember noting the length. You are a sock master.


She knits like a machine. They are fantastic. Can I commissioner My Friend to make me a pair of slipper socks? Mine just fell apart that someone on KP so wonderfully made for me. Friend - email or pm me, please. Brava to you!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Oui sounds very smart today. But when big business and big military combine, you have fascism. Lovely.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

ouijian said:


> Joey, Nebs, I am curious why you guys are so mistrustful of government and at the same time place your trust in an unfettered market. How is it that the market, in your eyes, can do no wrong as long as it is left to its own devices, yet the government is inherently evil?
> 
> One thing that puzzles me about your viewpoint is that at the same time you hold this opinion, you also espouse your fundamental belief in democracy and our constitution. Yet, the embodiment of democracy and the constitution is supposed to be the government, and you hate the government. According to you, the government is incapable of solving problems. The government is supposed to represent the people. You vote for people who openly flog their hatred of government. On some level, this attitude seems to reflect some self loathing, because we are the government in a collective sense. The embodiment of the United States is the government, not the market. If you believe that the entity you have elected is not capable of solving problems, why bother with it? Perhaps we should have anarchy instead. You view shows a basic distrust of human beings, yet a basic trust of an abstract entity. Magical thinking I believe is the best phrase to describe your point of view. Either that, or pure cynicism.
> 
> ...


I believe that you have misrepresented my views on many of these issues.

I do not put my trust in an unfettered market. I have repeatedly said that we need regulation, but that the regulation must be a deterrent to the crime. What good does it do to regulate, if the corporations are allowed to profit, from going against regulation? If a corporation makes 100 billion dollars polluting a river, what good does it do, to fine them 100 million dollars? What I said, was that our regulations are ineffective.

I do not believe that government is "inherently evil". I believe that we could have a fair government, but it would require the people's involvement. If the people were aware of corruption and insisted that it be punished harshly, we could have a very good government.

I DO believe in representative government AND the Constitution. Unfortunately, I believe that most of OUR representatives are representing corporations, not US!

I have NEVER said that "the government is incapable of solving problems. I have said that they are UNWILLING to solve problems, because they've been bought by the corporations (or the 1%, same thing). If you disagree with this statement, can you explain to me WHY, the government would enter into treaties that send jobs overseas, and effectively ruin our economy? How can anyone think that losing the majority of our jobs, is a good thing? And why won't they fix it?

If our representatives represented US, we would be the government "in a collective sense". But when they do not represent us, we are not a government, of the people, by the people, and for the people. Instead, we're a government of the corporations. I would trust a government that had faithfully represented its people, and did what was best for them. But how can you trust a government that consistently acts against your best interests, in favor of those who give them money? I think that is foolish! It's "magical thinking"!

Citizens United would carry absolutely no power, if not for willing politicians. It starts and ends there! We need to clean up our government. They're not going to do it themselves. We need to insist that our representatives take no money from anyone! We need to insist that if they do, they receive harsh punishment! As long as we let them do whatever they want, corruption will exist. The people need to insist that their representatives represent them, and nothing else!

And yes, it is my viewpoint " that markets are unpredictable and can send entire nations to the brink of disaster". I definitely do NOT want to cede my life to corporations! Why do you say this, when I have CONSISTANTLY spoken out against this?!? The corporations have gambled our welfare and we ARE on the brink of disaster! Hence the subject of this thread! Are YOU going to trust them to take care of you? Do you trust them? Or do you think that there's anything you could do, to protect yourself?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> But when big business and big military combine, you have fascism. Lovely.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

So far I've been sticking to the topic of September and hoping this market "correction" is not the possible crash. 

I just wanted to add to the discussion what a strange beast the global corporation is--hated by both the left and right. The left views it as rich, greedy, uncaring, oppressive, anti-worker and overly-influential of government. The right sees it as part of Eisenhower's "military industrial complex", the Bilderberger and Bohemian Grove gang, driving the New World Order, and overly-influential of government.
The corporation just can't get no love.


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## Artbarn (Aug 1, 2014)

Moe C said:


> So far I've been sticking to the topic of September and hoping this market "correction" is not the possible crash.
> 
> I just wanted to add to the discussion what a strange beast the global corporation is--hated by both the left and right. The left views it as rich, greedy, uncaring, oppressive, anti-worker and overly-influential of government. The right sees it as part of Eisenhower's "military industrial complex", the Bilderberger and Bohemian Grove gang, driving the New World Order, and overly-influential of government.
> The corporation just can't get no love.


OK, I'll take the middle ground here. Corporations go hand-in-hand with capitalism. Some of you dislike capitalism, but it is one of the things that make this country great, the reason that so many people came to this country to seek the "American Dream." It's what keeps us from becoming Greece.

I see a big part of this problem as the ridiculous tax system that we have in this country. The US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world, which forces corporations to look for tax loopholes and to move out of the US. We need a big change to our tax system, one that would remove all the loopholes and treat all citizens fairly, while helping corporations to grow. Growth equals jobs.

http://taxfoundation.org/blog/us-has-highest-corporate-income-tax-rate-oecd


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Artbarn said:


> OK, I'll take the middle ground here. Corporations go hand-in-hand with capitalism. Some of you dislike capitalism, but it is one of the things that make this country great, the reason that so many people came to this country to seek the "American Dream." It's what keeps us from becoming Greece.
> 
> I see a big part of this problem as the ridiculous tax system that we have in this country. The US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world, which forces corporations to look for tax loopholes and to move out of the US. We need a big change to our tax system, one that would remove all the loopholes and treat all citizens fairly, while helping corporations to grow. Growth equals jobs.
> 
> http://taxfoundation.org/blog/us-has-highest-corporate-income-tax-rate-oecd


I'd be all for lowering the tax rate, IF they eliminated tax deductions, tax loopholes and tax shelters.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

"A former adviser to Gordon Brown has urged people to stock up on canned goods and bottled water as stock markets around the world slide.
Damian McBride appeared to suggest that the stock market dip could lead to civil disorder or other situations where it would be unreasonable for someone to leave the house.
Advice on the looming crash, No.1: get hard cash in a safe place now; don't assume banks & cashpoints will be open, or bank cards will work, he tweeted.

Crash advice No.2: do you have enough bottled water, tinned goods & other essentials at home to live a month indoors? If not, get shopping.
Crash advice No.3: agree a rally point with your loved ones in case transport and communication gets cut off; somewhere you can all head to.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/stock-up-on-canned-food-for-stock-market-crash-warns-former-gordon-brown-advisor-10469509.html

If the advisor to the former Prime Minister of the UK thinks its advisable to prepare, perhaps we're not crazy after all. It only makes sense.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Artbarn said:


> OK, I'll take the middle ground here. Corporations go hand-in-hand with capitalism. Some of you dislike capitalism, but it is one of the things that make this country great, the reason that so many people came to this country to seek the "American Dream." It's what keeps us from becoming Greece.
> 
> I see a big part of this problem as the ridiculous tax system that we have in this country. The US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world, which forces corporations to look for tax loopholes and to move out of the US. We need a big change to our tax system, one that would remove all the loopholes and treat all citizens fairly, while helping corporations to grow. Growth equals jobs.
> 
> http://taxfoundation.org/blog/us-has-highest-corporate-income-tax-rate-oecd


Instead of checking the corporate tax rate, take a look at the EFFECTIVE rate they actually pay. It is about 13%. Corporations are hardly overtaxed, particularly the ones that get billions in rebates every year. The only change we need is to close some of the loopholes that permit some corporations to suck tax rebates from the public coffers.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Citizens United would carry absolutely no power, if not for willing politicians. It starts and ends there! We need to clean up our government. They're not going to do it themselves. We need to insist that our representatives take no money from anyone! We need to insist that if they do, they receive harsh punishment! As long as we let them do whatever they want, corruption will exist. The people need to insist that their representatives represent them, and nothing else!


Citizens United allows the wealthy, not just corporations, to buy air time and to flood the airwaves with lies, as well. People who believe the lies ELECT politicians who are in cahoots with big money.

People who believe the lies vote against their own best interests.

Yes, we need to overturn Citizens United and make lobbying illegal and to enact strict laws against bribery that would send those receiving AND giving, to jail for long sentences. Free and fair elections - what we don't have now.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Citizens United allows the wealthy, not just corporations, to buy air time and to flood the airwaves with lies, as well. People who believe the lies ELECT politicians who are in cahoots with big money.
> 
> People who believe the lies vote against their own best interests.
> 
> Yes, we need to overturn Citizens United and make lobbying illegal and to enact strict laws against bribery that would send those receiving AND giving, to jail for long sentences. Free and fair elections - what we don't have now.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

It starts with the people becoming informed and involved.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I guess it is great that George Soros can buy anything and anybody he wants, but it is terrible if the Koch brothers do anything.
> 
> It is the over regulation of businesses by the government that is causing problems. The coal industry is a good example. We have enough "clean" coal to provide power at a reasonable price for decades. But more regulations are put on the emissions so they are forced to close. 0bama wants green energy, but at what price? Maybe 3 or 4 times what the currents price is. Who will pay it?
> 
> ...


So you don't care whether there is a habitable earth left for your grandchildren but you worry about them having debt.

You are a well-known climate change denier. Regulations on business such as EPA restrictions are necessary if we are to continue live on the earth. How convenient it is for people like you to deny climate change - in the interest of short-term benefits of coal and fossil energy, which is not, never has been and never will be - clean.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> George Soros funded the organizations that paid for the protesters in Ferguson. Looks like he wants to destroy America.


As stated, that is a lie. Soros funds human rights organizations. If there is an overlap, he still does a lot of good in the world and his intent certainly is NOT to fund rioting. Typical right-wing, teabagger talking point, and more of your BS.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> .
> 
> The reason the Corporations are hoarding their money, is because of the regulations on business. They need to plan 3 or more years ahead.


They would have the same "problem" under any administration.

They are hoarding money because they like having money. Example: The Walton family (WalMart for those who think the Waltons is a family on an old TV show).


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> 0bamacare is a good example. A small business in the southern US, went through the expense and trouble of getting ready for the mandated insurance. Only to find out that 0bama postponed it, with his pen. Then they will have to go through the expense again.


So, Obama, in trying to ease the transition, hurt your little company in the south. If you think ANY regulation helps EVERYONE without having some unfortunate unintended consequences, I have a bridge to sell you. The ACA isn't perfect, but it isn't the boogeyman you try to paint it to be. You don't want to pay other people's bills - Obamacare makes it possible for more people to pay their own way. You just dislike it because it has the name "Obama" attached to it.

Where's your Christian charity as in "caring for the sick?" Or do you only care for the sick that YOU think deserve it?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put. Thank you for pointing out some contradictions.



ouijian said:


> Joey, Nebs, I am curious why you guys are so mistrustful of government and at the same time place your trust in an unfettered market. How is it that the market, in your eyes, can do no wrong as long as it is left to its own devices, yet the government is inherently evil?
> 
> One thing that puzzles me about your viewpoint is that at the same time you hold this opinion, you also espouse your fundamental belief in democracy and our constitution. Yet, the embodiment of democracy and the constitution is supposed to be the government, and you hate the government. According to you, the government is incapable of solving problems. The government is supposed to represent the people. You vote for people who openly flog their hatred of government. On some level, this attitude seems to reflect some self loathing, because we are the government in a collective sense. The embodiment of the United States is the government, not the market. If you believe that the entity you have elected is not capable of solving problems, why bother with it? Perhaps we should have anarchy instead. You view shows a basic distrust of human beings, yet a basic trust of an abstract entity. Magical thinking I believe is the best phrase to describe your point of view. Either that, or pure cynicism.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> I was just curious since she never talks about her knitting. Turns out she is an expert sock knitter. Maybe I can talk her into teaching me a tearless way of doing socks. I tried it once and it was soooo sad.


You and me both on dpns & socks, Sista. Thank heavens no one filmed it. VIRAL for language alone.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> You and me both on dpns & socks, Sista. Thank heavens no one filmed it. VIRAL for language alone.


Actually I did the famous method that was posted on KP. It was a disaster once I got to the heel. I still would love to conquer it. I got a Craftsy course just waiting for me. Maybe that will be my fall project for keeping myself reasonably sane and challenged.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Snoopy Doopy said:


> America has the most number of deductions available to corporations and hey pay lower taxes than a lot of European countries do. So, it's just not true that they need to move out of the US. They usually move out of the US because they can use near slave labor. And sorry, but I don't think this country should be in a race to the bottom for wages.quote]
> 
> Ah, good for you. You beat me to posting this very item. The deductions and tax breaks are certainly there. It is indeed the cost of labor and benefits. Well done.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Soros buying coal stocks. So I researched but was unable to find an unbiased and newsworthy source. Just RW fanatical articles. However, I suspect that we will be exporting the coal as we have done for a long time.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

SQM said:


> Actually I did the famous method that was posted on KP. It was a disaster once I got to the heel. I still would love to conquer it. I got a Craftsy course just waiting for me. Maybe that will be my fall project for keeping myself reasonably sane and challenged.


That darn heel is a thorn in my behind! I did finally master it but it and that was the last pair of socks I made. I didn't like wearing them.


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> That darn heel is a thorn in my behind! I did finally master it but it and that was the last pair of socks I made. I didn't like wearing them.


I can say I knitted one pair of socks and now that I know what is involved, I will never do it again. Not only did the toes not work for my foot shape, the yarn rubbed my feet raw, and the self striping yarn was fine on one sock, and on the other, it ended up looking like flame stitch. Never. Again.


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> "A former adviser to Gordon Brown has urged people to stock up on canned goods and bottled water as stock markets around the world slide.
> Damian McBride appeared to suggest that the stock market dip could lead to civil disorder or other situations where it would be unreasonable for someone to leave the house.
> Advice on the looming crash, No.1: get hard cash in a safe place now; don't assume banks & cashpoints will be open, or bank cards will work, he tweeted.
> 
> ...


I know no one wants my advice but I'm giving it anyway. What should we do about this correction or whatever you want to call it? NOTHING!


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

ouijian said:


> I know no one wants my advice but I'm giving it anyway. What should we do about this correction or whatever you want to call it? NOTHING!


Exactly - it's a correction. Ride it out - regardless of the hysteria, the economy is sound and the situation in China will affect us on a global level but will not drastically affect the market. Thanks to the media, fear mongering is occurring. I am fortunate to work with some financial advisors. 
Thank you, Ouijian.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

ouijian said:


> I can say I knitted one pair of socks and now that I know what is involved, I will never do it again. Not only did the toes not work for my foot shape, the yarn rubbed my feet raw, and the self striping yarn was fine on one sock, and on the other, it ended up looking like flame stitch. Never. Again.


I thought the socks would be comfortable but I really did not like them. My friends love knitted socks so I thought it was just me!


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Of course, Liberals think only the government can make good decisions to take care of people. The people are to dumb to make the decision themselves. Then what do we have. A government so deeply in debt, that if we go into another depression, the people will not be able to think or take care of them selves. Then Obama can make himself "President for Life."
> 
> The Republican party lost power to the Dems during the depression. The people then, just like now, will vote for the party that gives them something now. They do not care the shape the country is in or what will be left for our children and grandchildren. Many are lazy and selfish.


Paranoid much? Sounds like you think Obama is going to declare martial law, and send you and your friends to concentration camps in cattle cars, after confiscating all your worldly goods and money.

Sounds like you are the one who thinks people are stupid and lazy and selfish, but this is exactly what you accuse liberals of.

Republicans are the climate deniers who think nothing of bequeathing their heirs with a resource depleted and environmentally devastated planet. It's progressives who are worried about the future, not conservatives. It's all about preserving their crappy jobs because apparently they are too lazy and selfish to think about the future and learn robotics or computer programming or nursing or whatever is the next big career or get their collective butt into college.

Republicans lost to democrats during the depression because people were smart enough to realize that the democrats were the ones who could solve the problems. You, Joey, are the one who thinks people are not smart. Why you insist that the opposite is true is just hypocritical.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> There was this scare in the stock market this morning. It did recover, but what will happen if it did not recover, but drop 1000 the next day. It just might happen!


And we could get hit by an asteroid.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

How many points did the market go down in '08?


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> Exactly - it's a correction. Ride it out - regardless of the hysteria, the economy is sound and the situation in China will affect us on a global level but will not drastically affect the market. Thanks to the media, fear mongering is occurring. I am fortunate to work with some financial advisors.
> Thank you, Ouijian.


Most of us plebes are not at the investment level where we need to pay attention to this. If you're diversified, you're golden. Glad to hear you've got good knowledge. I will keep that in mind! 😀


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The only democrat passed programs that have accomplished what they proposed to do were the ones that repaired road, built dams etc. Any programs to get people OUT of poverty have put more people in poverty. Numbers don't lie.


Yes, that was what we call stimulus! Taxes were raised and used to build infrastructure. The democrats and Roosevelt made the same mistake Obama made, and the same mistake the Germans are making in Greece, which is, not enough stimulus.

So, Joey, what would YOU suggest to get people out of poverty?

Personally, I am a proponent of the Basic Income Guarantee, which provides the most essential items for living, such as food, clothing, shelter, medical care, and education, to all citizens, and well really, to all residents of the U.S. Don't have a conniption fit, Joey. I know you believe in the bootstrap theory and that if you give people the bare essentials they need to survive, they will lose incentive and be a drain on society.

I contend that if you remove those obstacles, poverty can be eliminated. There is absolutely no reason for people to starve or go without essentials in the richest country in the world. None.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

ouijian said:


> I know no one wants my advice but I'm giving it anyway. What should we do about this correction or whatever you want to call it? NOTHING!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Be smart enough not to resort to fear and greed. Slow, steady and diversified wins the race. IMHO


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I worked in the mutual fund industry for 15 years.



GWPlver said:


> Exactly - it's a correction. Ride it out - regardless of the hysteria, the economy is sound and the situation in China will affect us on a global level but will not drastically affect the market. Thanks to the media, fear mongering is occurring. I am fortunate to work with some financial advisors.
> Thank you, Ouijian.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And an asteroid may land in your lap tomorrow.



joeysomma said:


> There was this scare in the stock market this morning. It did recover, but what will happen if it did not recover, but drop 1000 the next day. It just might happen!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We have no way of knowing what you refer to.



joeysomma said:


> The only democrat passed programs that have accomplished what they proposed to do were the ones that repaired road, built dams etc. Any programs to get people OUT of poverty have put more people in poverty. Numbers don't lie.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It should scare you how much we think alike.



DGreen said:


> And we could get hit by an asteroid.


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

You did not answer my question Joey. What is your suggestion for eliminating poverty?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> America's shameful poverty statistics
> 
> http://www.thenation.com/article/americas-shameful-poverty-stats/
> 
> With all the money put into the programs to get people out of poverty, there should be no more than 5%. And these should be the ones that really need help. Like mentally ill, and disabled. But then any of the disabled that want to work will probably be able to find a job. Most have no desire to work, if the government with all the programs give them the same standard of living as the middle class.


I am ambivalent about this topic. Last week I was waiting at the bus stop and I overheard a few middle-aged men talking about getting SSI and their felony convictions. A friend of mine who has a grown child with autism is having a hell of a time getting him SSI. The two situations just got me thinking.


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

Snoopy Doopy said:


> Wasn't the Basic Income Guarantee something proposed by Thomas Paine?


I don't know about Thomas Paine. I was thinking more of MLK, but I could see where TP would have been a proponent.


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

Snoopy Doopy said:


> And fetuses are not human life.


I'm not going down that road, other than to point out you probably meant to say "human beings", since they are obviously alive to require killing, and obviously human, as opposed to anteater.
----------------------
SQM: Re your bus stop encounter, you are well aware of the abuses in all entitlement programmes, so why is this one any different?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

ouijian said:


> I can say I knitted one pair of socks and now that I know what is involved, I will never do it again. Not only did the toes not work for my foot shape, the yarn rubbed my feet raw, and the self striping yarn was fine on one sock, and on the other, it ended up looking like flame stitch. Never. Again.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> It should scare you how much we think alike.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## ouijian (Apr 21, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Their only rights are "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness," as guaranteed in the Declaration of Independence. But then the guarantee of "Life" has been taken away from 55 + million Americans. So why should anyone else have a guarantee?


Just for grade school kids and people who immigrants seeking citizenship:

http://quizlet.com/4566256/bill-of-rights-summary-flash-cards/


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Thomas Paine did NOT advocate for a basic guaranteed income! He believed that the land belonged to everyone. Anyone who used that land to profit (farmers in particular) should have to pay a "rent" to the people, for the use of the land. He thought that the monies raised by these "rents" should go into a fund which would help support the elderly, the lame and the blind. They were to receive a sum of 10 sterling pounds per year. The average able bodied worker earned 23 pounds per year, at the time. They were to receive these funds once a year, beginning at the age of 50. 50 was the life expectancy at that time. He also believed that young people just starting out deserved a one time payment of 15 pounds, at the age of 21. He believed that since they were forfeiting their rights to the land, they should be payed.

That hardly counts as a basic guaranteed income! Able bodied people got nothing! They were expected to support themselves.

Read: "Agrarian Justice" by Thomas Paine
http://www.ssa.gov/history/paine4.html


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

ouijian said:


> Just for grade school kids and people who immigrants seeking citizenship:
> 
> http://quizlet.com/4566256/bill-of-rights-summary-flash-cards/


My favorite is the 10th Amendment.

"This amendment limits the power of federal government by reserving for the states all powers that are not explicitly granted to the federal government by the Constitution, nor denied to the states."


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thomas Paine did NOT advocate for a basic guaranteed income! He believed that the land belonged to everyone. Anyone who used that land to profit (farmers in particular) should have to pay a "rent" to the people, for the use of the land. He thought that the monies raised by these "rents" should go into a fund which would help support the elderly, the lame and the blind. They were to receive a sum of 10 sterling pounds per year. The average able bodied worker earned 23 pounds per year, at the time. They were to receive these funds once a year, beginning at the age of 50. 50 was the life expectancy at that time. He also believed that young people just starting out deserved a one time payment of 15 pounds, at the age of 21. He believed that since they were forfeiting their rights to the land, they should be payed.
> 
> That hardly counts as a basic guaranteed income! Able bodied people got nothing! They were expected to support themselves.
> 
> ...


You are being rude, no caps and exclamation marks. Please stop shouting. :thumbdown:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> America's shameful poverty statistics
> 
> http://www.thenation.com/article/americas-shameful-poverty-stats/
> 
> With all the money put into the programs to get people out of poverty, there should be no more than 5%. And these should be the ones that really need help. Like mentally ill, and disabled. But then any of the disabled that want to work will probably be able to find a job. Most have no desire to work, if the government with all the programs give them the same standard of living as the middle class.


Couldn't you find an article that is current. This one is two years old. Are things getting better or worse?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> You are being rude, no caps and exclamation marks. Please stop shouting. :thumbdown:


Shouting is when you type the whole message in caps. Capitalizing a word or phrase, means to put emphasis on it.

Besides, is that ALL you have to offer to the discussion?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Couldn't you find an article that is current. This one is two years old. Are things getting better or worse?


It's funny, this article is non biased. It went after both sides of government. It said things, that you would say. It could have been written 20 years ago, or today. It would still be appropo. And yet, you were only concerned that it was two years old. Did you read it? If not, you should have. You probably would have agreed with it.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Shouting is when you type the whole message in caps. Capitalizing a word or phrase, means to put emphasis on it.
> 
> Besides, is that ALL you have to offer to the discussion?
> 
> What qualifies as rude in an email?


The email is written in all capitals (yelling)[1] or particular parts of it that express demands or condescension are written in all capitals.

When you post something I am interested in replying to. The only thing I notice about many of your posts are the condescending manner in which they are written and yes, individual words capitalized and unneeded exclamation marks are rude according to proper email etiquette.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It's funny, this article is non biased. It went after both sides of government. It said things, that you would say. It could have been written 20 years ago, or today. It would still be appropo. And yet, you were only concerned that it was two years old. Did you read it? If not, you should have. You probably would have agreed with it.


Yes, I did. You are not correct in saying it does not matter when the article was written. Economic conditions can very greatly and my question was that something current would obviously be more relevant to the discussion as to how many people are in poverty now versus a few years ago. What happened a few years ago is no longer relevant as the economy is in a state of flux. It is not constant.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> If you don't like this one, FIND YOUR OWN!


Yes, I will. Why did you even post the link? You said there is nothing that can be done about poverty anyway. You offered no suggestions on how the situation could be improved. Do you just like to post to commiserate over how bad things are? Certainly are testy this evening. :lol:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> The email is written in all capitals (yelling)[1] or particular parts of it that express demands or condescension are written in all capitals.
> 
> When you post something I am interested in replying to. The only thing I notice about many of your posts are the condescending manner in which they are written and yes, individual words capitalized and unneeded exclamation marks are rude according to proper email etiquette.


I've no idea what "e mail" you're referring to. The post you copied had ONE word in caps. The link I posted was from the US government. I was explaining Thomas Paine's position. How was that condescending?

If capitalized words are rude according to e mail etiquette, good thing I wasn't sending an e mail! NOW, I'm being condescending!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Yes, I did. You are not correct in saying it does not matter when the article was written. Economic conditions can very greatly and my question was that something current would obviously be more relevant to the discussion as to how many people are in poverty now versus a few years ago. What happened a few years ago is no longer relevant as the economy is in a state of flux. It is not constant.


What the article was saying, is that we've had too much poverty for decades. It wasn't referring to a particular year or decade. It was saying that it's shameful that there are so many poor, in such a wealthy country. It was saying that a small group of people had all of the wealth. I thought that you would agree.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Yes, I will. Why did you even post the link? You said there is nothing that can be done about poverty anyway. You offered no suggestions on how the situation could be improved. Do you just like to post to commiserate over how bad things are? Certainly are testy this evening. :lol:


I think YOU'RE being testy this evening. Lol


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## gjz (Dec 2, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Except kale, but who can stand that stuff?


Use it to make pesto...then you don't need so much basil. It's really good! Otherwise, not so much!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I've no idea what "e mail" you're referring to. The post you copied had ONE word in caps. The link I posted was from the US government. I was explaining Thomas Paine's position. How was that condescending?
> 
> If capitalized words are rude according to e mail etiquette, good thing I wasn't sending an e mail! NOW, I'm being condescending!


I was referring to "your" post. The same good manners apply to them as they do to emails.
Below is part of your post and you were being your usual rude and condescending self and below that your next post just proved me correct. Next thing you will be warning everyone concerning your latest conspiracy theory. Whatever floats your boat. The sky is falling, the sky is falling! In this case an exclamation mark is appropriate.

Thomas Paine did NOT advocate for a basic guaranteed income!

If capitalized words are rude according to e mail etiquette, good thing I wasn't sending an e mail! NOW, I'm being condescending![/quote]


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I guess you didn't bother to read what was replying to. It had to do with all government programs that tried to get rid of poverty, didn't work!


Not true Joey. Some worked very well and some failed. I guess you believe we should just throw in the towel 'cause all those deadbeats just love living off the largess of the taxpayers. 
Who do you think the GOP will pick to run next year? Maybe he or she can solve the poverty problem in this country.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Quote: Cheeky Blighter: I was referring to "your" post. The same good manners apply to them as they do to emails.



If the same good manners apply to postings on KP, you'd better check your own. I think you've quite a few rude posts. (Just returning the favor.)


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## Artbarn (Aug 1, 2014)

Moe C said:


> So far I've been sticking to the topic of September and hoping this market "correction" is not the possible crash.
> 
> I just wanted to add to the discussion what a strange beast the global corporation is--hated by both the left and right. The left views it as rich, greedy, uncaring, oppressive, anti-worker and overly-influential of government. The right sees it as part of Eisenhower's "military industrial complex", the Bilderberger and Bohemian Grove gang, driving the New World Order, and overly-influential of government.
> The corporation just can't get no love.





Artbarn said:


> OK, I'll take the middle ground here. Corporations go hand-in-hand with capitalism. Some of you dislike capitalism, but it is one of the things that make this country great, the reason that so many people came to this country to seek the "American Dream." It's what keeps us from becoming Greece.
> 
> I see a big part of this problem as the ridiculous tax system that we have in this country. The US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world, which forces corporations to look for tax loopholes and to move out of the US. We need a big change to our tax system, one that would remove all the loopholes and treat all citizens fairly, while helping corporations to grow. Growth equals jobs.
> 
> http://taxfoundation.org/blog/us-has-highest-corporate-income-tax-rate-oecd


I am not going to get into a nonsense discussion about this. I just returned from consoling my sister, who has lost both her husband and her son in the past few weeks. I don't have the heart to get into a pissing match with anyone here.

My post above was a response to a post by Moe C. Most of the people who commented on my post completely disregarded WHY I wrote it. When I said I was taking the middle ground, I was referring to the middle ground between the left and right, per Moe C's post. Neither of us were specifying other people on this thread.

And YES, I did capitalize three words for emphasis, just as I underlined a phrase for emphasis. Deal with it.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Artbarn said:


> I am not going to get into a nonsense discussion about this. I just returned from consoling my sister, who has lost both her husband and her son in the past few weeks. I don't have the heart to get into a pissing match with anyone here.
> 
> My post above was a response to a post by Moe C. Most of the people who commented on my post completely disregarded WHY I wrote it. When I said I was taking the middle ground, I was referring to the middle ground between the left and right, per Moe C's post. Neither of us were specifying other people on this thread.
> 
> And YES, I did capitalize three words for emphasis, just as I underlined a phrase for emphasis. Deal with it.


I'm so sorry, Artbarn. I will include you and your sister in my prayers, tonight.


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## Artbarn (Aug 1, 2014)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm so sorry, Artbarn. I will include you and your sister, in my prayers tonight.


Thank you. She's been through a horrible ordeal.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Artbarn said:


> Thank you. She's been through a horrible ordeal.


I can't imagine anything worse.


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## Artbarn (Aug 1, 2014)

Snoopy Doopy said:


> What part of "and among _these rights_" did not clue her into the fact that there are more "certain inalienable rights" rights than just life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?
> 
> Not very bright, is she?


Not very polite, are you?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Snoopy Doopy said:


> Problem is, based on some of your other posts, you seem to confuse the words explicitly and specifically or precisely.
> 
> That's nice that it's you're favorite, but it seems you at times like you don't definitively understand it.
> 
> That's why I like the Ninth because it ensures that the individual rights that are _not enumerated_ in the Constitution are securethat is, that these rights EXIST and should not be infringed upon because they are omitted from the Constitution. In other words, _again_ it points out that there are guaranteed rights _beyond_ life liberty and pursuit of happiness.


you are hired should I ever need a constitutional lawyer.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Snoopy Doopy said:


> I already read it which is why I brought it up, and even your description of it does indeed count as a form of basic guaranteed income. Even though you've failed to recognize it.
> 
> "Asset-based egalitarianism is a form of egalitarianism which theorises that equality is possible by a redistribution of resources, usually in the form of a capital grant provided at the age of majority .... The idea (Asset-based egalitarianism) has been around since Thomas Paine (January 29, 1737  June 8, 1809) in his work Agrarian Justice 1795, _and complemented *his other thesis of basic income.*_
> 
> ...


Heck of a guy, Thomas Paine. More interested in thinking and writing than in being appointed - or elected - to office. And an atheist, which made him unpopular with religious leaders, as well as their followers.

"My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches  appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Snoopy Doopy said:


> academia.edu
> 
> *Two Arguments for Basic Income: Thomas Paine (1737-1809) and Thomas Spence (1750-1814)*


These men were way ahead of their time.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Snoopy Doopy said:


>


Ha ha and how cute you can be!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Snoopy Doopy said:


> Oh, I so love that quote. I try not to judge those who seem to need meeting with others to worship Him, but I feel closest to God when we're private.
> 
> Me and God don't need a middle man


I prefer the middle man to the god. Actually they are both equal. Gods come and go as do the middle men or middle women.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Snoopy Doopy said:


> Oh, I so love that quote. I try not to judge those who seem to need meeting with others to worship Him, but I feel closest to God when we're private.
> 
> Me and God don't need a middle man


I see the middle man as being the bible.


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

Snoopy Doopy said:


> Moe C, that there is some degree of abuse in any program, that in and of itself does not negate the need or value of them.


It was SQM who was ambivalent about a programme, when she heard its abuses being discussed at a bus stop. I said all entitlement programmes are abused, why is this one different (for her)?

--------------------------------------

I don't think statistics that are from two years ago are old. You often see charts & graphs using government stats saying, "figures available to 2013", eg. It takes time to gather and process stats. The US Census of May 2010 released preliminary data seven months later and took longer to release other data. Below is the release date for a brief based on data gathered to 2012, but not scheduled for release until Sept 2014.

"Upcoming
2014 Product Calendar

The Census Bureau has posted anticipated release dates for each regular and recurring statistical product expected to be released in 2014. The products are listed in the Census Bureau's online product calendar, which will be updated as needed throughout the year.

American Community Survey
Public Assistance Receipt: 2000 to 2012

This 2012 American Community Survey brief on the number and percentages of households receiving public assistance provides statistics for the nation, states and the 25 metro areas with the largest populations...similar briefs have been published each of the last several years, this is the first that provides comparisons back to 2000, and for metro areas. (Tentatively scheduled for release Sept. 2.)"


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Heck of a guy, Thomas Paine. More interested in thinking and writing than in being appointed - or elected - to office. And an atheist, which made him unpopular with religious leaders, as well as their followers.
> 
> "My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches  appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.


I don't believe that Thomas Paine was an atheist. He spoke very vehemently, against organized religion. He believed it to be a form of tyranny and control. But he believed in GOD.

Here's a quote from " Age of Reason" written by Paine; "I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.". He also said, " I consider myself in the hands of my Creator, and that he will dispose of me after this life consistently with his justice and goodness".


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> These men were way ahead of their time.


Except that Paine did not advocate for a basic income. He advocated for yearly stipends for the poor and disabled, but not for able bodied persons.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I see the middle man as being the bible.


 :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't believe that Thomas Paine was an atheist. He spoke very vehemently, against organized religion. He believed it to be a form of tyranny and control. But he believed in GOD.
> 
> Here's a quote from " Age of Reason" written by Paine; "I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.". He also said, " I consider myself in the hands of my Creator, and that he will dispose of me after this life consistently with his justice and goodness".


That certainly would indicate that you were right, though Teddy Roosevelt called him "That filthy little atheist." He sounds more like a deist (like so many of the other Founding Fathers).

What he did say, very clearly, was that religion was not to be taken as anything God wants, and "As to the book called the bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions and a history of bad times and bad men." [Thomas Paine, writing to Andrew Dean August 15, 1806]


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> That certainly would indicate that you were right, though Teddy Roosevelt called him "That filthy little atheist." He sounds more like a deist (like so many of the other Founding Fathers).
> 
> What he did say, very clearly, was that religion was not to be taken as anything God wants, and "As to the book called the bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions and a history of bad times and bad men." [Thomas Paine, writing to Andrew Dean August 15, 1806]


I agree. He did say that.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

It was SQM who was ambivalent about a programme, when she heard its abuses being discussed at a bus stop. I said all entitlement programmes are abused, why is this one different (for her)?


Moe - I would never refer to them as 'entitlements' since I paid into them for the last generation of sick and elderly. 

I have no map sense. Over what state is Ontario?


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> MN, WI, MI, OH, PA, and NY


 Yep, it's pretty big. It has shores on L Ontario, L Erie, L Huron and L Superior. I'm in the banana belt--the Niagara Peninsula. Another fact that should really confuse your non-mapness is, I am farther south than a dozen US states, and that's not counting Alaska. When my husband used to drive to the US mid-west, he'd be asked how things were up north. He'd try to explain he hadn't come from the north, but from the east. No luck.



> I would never refer to them as 'entitlements' since I paid into them for the last generation of sick and elderly


I think it's a suitable word, since people think they're entitled to them (when needed). Do you know that a person who lives a reasonable length of time after retirement, gets back from SS way more than he paid in? That's probably the case with any collection of monies from a contributory plan. Our CPP, which is comparable to your retirement SS in that the worker and employer contribute, sends us a statement of all the years we worked and how much we paid into the plan each year. It is very easy to calculate how quickly we get back everything we, and the employer, paid in. It is a ridiculously few number of years. They are Ponzi schemes, in a way.

Since I've succumbed to going off-topic anyway, would you elaborate on your ambivalence? I'm always interested when a liberal sees cracks in a liberal sacred cow. (Note to Poor Purl, I know it's a mixed metaphor. :lol: And not a very good one.)


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I worked for awhile as a trainer for the NY welfare system. It killed me to see the able-bodied walking in when I had to hire child care and leave my 4 year old. So there were some doubts in my mind. But I rather my tax money go to people than than our jingoist military any day. Let those affable felons have my money.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

DiamondBelle: I agree w/ you.


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

SQM said:


> I worked for awhile as a trainer for the NY welfare system. It killed me to see the able-bodied walking in when I had to hire child care and leave my 4 year old. So there were some doubts in my mind. But I rather my tax money go to people than than our jingoist military any day. Let those affable felons have my money.


and



> I am ambivalent about this topic. Last week I was waiting at the bus stop and I overheard a few middle-aged men talking about getting SSI and their felony convictions. A friend of mine who has a grown child with autism is having a hell of a time getting him SSI. The two situations just got me thinking.


As somebody who has been in the trenches, would you say there is much fraud?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I'll assume you meant "deist" which is defined as one who believes In GOD, but denies revealed religion. A "theist" doesn't necessisarily rule out religions. It just means that they believe in one GOD, rather than many.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Moe C said:


> As somebody who has been in the trenches, would you say there is much fraud?


There is fraud everywhere outside of government. And I imagine there is tons in government. Does your government and its programs have any fraud? Show me a pure government anywhere. Actually Trump, since "he cannot be bought", may be the purist candidate to be running. Just like Bloomberg was an "untouchable" mayor. But is that good enough?


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

SQM said:


> There is fraud everywhere outside of government. And I imagine there is tons in government. Does your government and its programs have any fraud? Show me a pure government anywhere. Actually Trump, since "he cannot be bought", may be the purist candidate to be running. Just like Bloomberg was an "untouchable" mayor. But is that good enough?


What I'm wondering is, did you say to yourself when you saw the able-bodied fraudsters, "there's a few of them, but overall the program works", or more like, "this program is a giant waste of money because half the recipients are scammers", or 2/3, or whatever? You rather the dough went to them than the military, but how many of "them" were there?

I made sure--in your head--you said program and not programme.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Moe C said:


> What I'm wondering is, did you say to yourself when you saw the able-bodied fraudsters, "there's a few of them, but overall the program works", or more like, "this program is a giant waste of money because half the recipients are scammers", or 2/3, or whatever? You rather the dough went to them than the military, but how many of "them" were there?
> 
> I made sure--in your head--you said program and not programme.


I thought, as I first mentioned - why did I have to go to work when I was their age and these able-bodied felons are sitting with an old age pensioner at the bus stop? But I answered myself that felons rarely get employed and they do not deserve to die of exposure or starvation.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Snoopy Doopy said:


> Except that he advocated for more than that ... a basic income.
> 
> Paine's ideas were not constant throughout his career. Paines experience of the French Revolution moved him sharply to the left.
> 
> ...


The whole concept is extraordinary, and once you understand it, it's absolutely correct. We, today, accept that some people own land and others don't, but if you carry that ownership all the way back in history to its origins, the first owners (meaning, in the US, the Europeans who took it from the Indians and kept it, mostly without payment) were not entitled to it. So there's still a debt that should have been carried down the generations along with the land.

But our newest people/citizens, the corporations, appear to help themselves to land that isn't even up for grabs, without paying and without cleaning up after themselves.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Moe C said:


> What I'm wondering is, did you say to yourself when you saw the able-bodied fraudsters, "there's a few of them, but overall the program works", or more like, "this program is a giant waste of money because half the recipients are scammers", or 2/3, or whatever? You rather the dough went to them than the military, but how many of "them" were there?
> 
> I made sure--in your head--you said program and not programme.


What I saw most when I worked in a clinic were grandparents who had to care for their grandchildren because their adult children were incapable for various reasons. These grandparents, many of whom were sick but did what they had to, were given very little money to care for the children, feed them, clothe them, see that they went to school and did their work. Whatever Welfare paid them, they earned.

As for the able-bodied you seem to think are in the majority, many have mental illnesses or drug histories or past prison sentences and find it next to impossible to get jobs, or keep them. As SQM put it, "they do not deserve to die of exposure or starvation."


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Snoopy Doopy said:


> Except, does anyone actually believe Trump can't be bought?


I believe it. But in his case, he could use better 'influences'.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Snoopy Doopy said:


> It's not having their own money that prevents someone from being bought, it's having the character to being willing to stand on principle.
> 
> You actually think Trump would stand on principal and not be opportunistic?


Yeah I do believe it. He is too strong in his ideas to be influenced. I think that is part of his appeal. How do you explain his current success?


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

PP said:


> As for the able-bodied you seem to think are in the majority


I don't, actually. I was trying to get a figure from someone who worked in a welfare office and said she had doubts, but she was not forthcoming on numbers. In her experience, would she say the scammers that she saw made up 5%, 10%, 30%, 50%, 80%? I could look up stats, but I'd be leery of them. I wanted to get it from the horse's mouth.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Snoopy.Doopy said:


> He's not strong on his ideas, he changes them based on what he thinks will benefit HIM at any point in time.
> 
> He was practically a social Democrat a little more than few years ago, until he realized he would never be allowed to be a presidential candidate for Democrats.
> 
> ...


You're right. Nothing he does is straightforward and honest.

Not to mention that his self-stated net worth is not accepted by accountants.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Moe C said:


> I don't, actually. I was trying to get a figure from someone who worked in a welfare office and said she had doubts, but she was not forthcoming on numbers. In her experience, would she say the scammers that she saw made up 5%, 10%, 30%, 50%, 80%? I could look up stats, but I'd be leery of them. I wanted to get it from the horse's mouth.


The Sloth's mouth.


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> The Sloth's mouth.


Yes. And "she" is the cat's mother, but I didn't want to drag SQM into it again.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Moe C said:


> Yes. And "she" is the cat's mother, but I didn't want to drag SQM into it again.


Moe, you are the cat's meow. (My mother would say that every time I referred to her as "she.")


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Moe C said:


> I don't, actually. I was trying to get a figure from someone who worked in a welfare office and said she had doubts, but she was not forthcoming on numbers. In her experience, would she say the scammers that she saw made up 5%, 10%, 30%, 50%, 80%? I could look up stats, but I'd be leery of them. I wanted to get it from the horse's mouth.


I was working for a short time as a trainer to train welfare workers on their new computer system. I hated working corporate and did not stay long. I was cloistered in a training room and only saw welfare recipients on rare occasions. I have no statistics to provide. Nor am I an expert on welfare or anything for that matter except slothing.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Snoopy.Doopy said:


> Besides, although I understand your frustrations. Anyone in your situation would feel the same thing.
> 
> Bit the truth is, even for those who work in the system, even they can't always know the full picture. It may appear 'ike someone is scamming, bit there are often underlying issues that are hard to see if your not in that person's life 24/6.
> 
> ...


And in many instances it requires a lawyer to get on SSI and certainly many people cannot afford that. I like your balanced viewpoint.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Quote: So I've been told you're reporting my posts instead of responding to this post Nancy. How cowardly. Shame on you.





LIAR!!! I've reported NOTHING!

I didnt respond to all of this because its repetitious. We both know what Paine said, so I'm not wasting anymore time on it. I've very little time to waste. 

And NOW, you make this accusation to try and draw me back in. Well, you've stooped about as low as you can go with this LIE! I'm done with you!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree that Trump is doing anything he can to seem like a viable presidential candidate. Money will always be the main influence on the T. Rumpet. For me he has no appeal. I award his current 'success' to frustrated, weak-minded voters.



SQM said:


> Yeah I do believe it. He is too strong in his ideas to be influenced. I think that is part of his appeal. How do you explain his current success?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The Tenth Amendment is my least favorite because it seems to be used to prevent the use of power for all the people, rather than for a few (a state.)



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> My favorite is the 10th Amendment.
> 
> "This amendment limits the power of federal government by reserving for the states all powers that are not explicitly granted to the federal government by the Constitution, nor denied to the states."


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> That certainly would indicate that you were right, though Teddy Roosevelt called him "That filthy little atheist." He sounds more like a deist (like so many of the other Founding Fathers).
> 
> What he did say, very clearly, was that religion was not to be taken as anything God wants, and "As to the book called the bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions and a history of bad times and bad men." [Thomas Paine, writing to Andrew Dean August 15, 1806]


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think you're fooling yourself about Trump being beyond financial influence. He is interested only in his self-worth, no one else. He'll turn on a dime. Watch...he has a great many influential enemies. This won't end well for the T. Rumpet.



SQM said:


> I believe it. But in his case, he could use better 'influences'.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Very interesting information. Thank you for providing it.



Snoopy Doopy. said:


> So I've been told you're reporting my posts instead of responding to this post Nancy. How cowardly. Shame on you.
> 
> Except that he advocated for more than that ... a basic income.
> 
> ...


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Snoop.Doopy said:


> I love the new argument where he accepts money from regular and poor people because they're 'investing' in his campaign he's doing them an 'honor' by letting them invest ...... but his rich buddies ... oh, no, he won't take money from _them_. They're deprived of that honor.?
> 
> Riiiiiigt.
> 
> Holy God conservatives are shockingly stoooopid.


I guess I thought Trump would be like Bloomberg but I was certainly wrong on that point. Is there any where on the net where we can find his true financial worth? After today's news, I no longer believe that he is going to finance his own campaign.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I guess I thought Trump would be like Bloomberg but I was certainly wrong on that point. Is there any where on the net where we can find his true financial worth? After today's news, I no longer believe that he is going to finance his own campaign.


Apparently, this is his 'Real Time Net Worth.'

http://www.forbes.com/profile/donald-trump/


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Apparently, this is his 'Real Time Net Worth.'
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/profile/donald-trump/


Thanks. So his 5 billion is an exaggeration. (ha ha) He also claims to be a grad of Wharton. That was not listed.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I haven't seen a reasonable net worth estimate but I thought this interesting. 
*******************
If all you knew about Donald Trumps presidential campaign came from commentary in the media, you would think it was unfathomable, stunning and unprecedented in American history. Trump, the Boston Globe announced, is forging a new path in American politics. A Guardian headline called Trumps candidacy a populist, celebrity-driven first. Salon described Trump as taking personality politics to a whole new depressing level.

But, if you look closer at the historical record, Trump is not such a novel phenomenon; in fact, his outsize personality, outsider status, conspicuous wealth, gift for exploiting a hot-button social issue and TV fame have a long and checkered lineage in our national politics. He is following in the steps of such actors turned politicians as Ronald Reagan and Sen. George Murphy, R-Calif.; business executives such as Ross Perot and Meg Whitman, who claim nobody can buy them because theyre so rich; independent and libertarian voices such as Ed Clark, a 1980 presidential candidate, who spoke for other libertarians in his suspicion of Washington and political power; and other voices of protest who style themselves as political outsiders vowing to fix whats wrong and make America great again, to use Trumps slogan.

In fact, Trumps rise to prominence is rooted in a legacy of political outsiders promising to break up the concentration of political power in the capital and destroy the corrupt stranglehold of political insiders. Trumps ascendance, for all its showy in-your-face appeal, is actually less surprising in the context of our post-Watergate, post-Vietnam political culture than Republicans, Democrats and much of the media have acknowledged.



SQM said:


> I guess I thought Trump would be like Bloomberg but I was certainly wrong on that point. Is there any where on the net where we can find his true financial worth? After today's news, I no longer believe that he is going to finance his own campaign.


----------



## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

I just posted a comment about firearms on the Trump thread; now I come to the September thread and see comments about Trump.
Half the time, I don't know where I am (stooopid conservative?)


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We all get confused and we all ramble. Don't worry too much.



Moe C said:


> I just posted a comment about firearms on the Trump thread; now I come to the September thread and see comments about Trump.
> Half the time, I don't know where I am (stooopid conservative?)


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Thanks. So his 5 billion is an exaggeration. (ha ha) He also claims to be a grad of Wharton. That was not listed.


He makes many claims but there's one claim he could never make and that is he will be a true statesman.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> He makes many claims but there's one claim he could never make and that is he will be a true statesman.


Oooooo! Watch out. Trump will broadcast your cell phone number with that kind of talk.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> He makes many claims but there's one claim he could never make and that is he will be a true statesman.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Oooooo! Watch out. Trump will broadcast your cell phone number with that kind of talk.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Snoopy.Doop said:


> Nah, confusing which thread you're in when the topics are similar is not stupid at all.
> 
> But re: my comments, I'm sorry but conservatism has EARNED the criticism that it's not "intellectually inclined" to put it more politely.
> 
> ...


It really is unfortunate. After all, Winston Churchill was a Conservative. But at some point in the Reagan days, things took a turn to the downside, and it's gotten progressively worse. At least in the US - Moe is Canadian and may not be as brain-dead as they are here.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Snoopy.Doop said:


> Nan, you're "done with me" because you're embarrassed by your failure to adequately support your claim in the face of my having shot it all to heck.
> 
> I'd like to know how you can call what I've written "repetitive" when it contradicts your understanding (or lack thereof as the case may be) of Thomas Paine's support and even creation of a form of "Basic Income"
> 
> ...


(snipped to avoid repetition)

I agree with you about Paine. With the little I've read, he does seem to have advocated a basic income.

But I think you should stop accusing Nebraska of reporting people. She insists she doesn't do that, and there's no good reason to think she does. There are plenty of others on KP who are happy to report people they disagree with, especially if they think they know who you are.


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Moe is Canadian and may not be as brain-dead as they are here.


"as" brain dead?....ha-ha-ha. Remember, I know what "begging the question" means, which makes me a veritable genius.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Moe C said:


> "as" brain dead?....ha-ha-ha. Remember, I know what "begging the question" means, which makes me a veritable genius.


You're right. However, there's a new genius in town. Can you correctly use "infer" in a sentence? The Sloth can.

(And Who knows what evil lurks in the hears of men? The Shadow knows. Mwaah haah haah.)


----------



## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> However, there's a new genius in town. Can you correctly use "infer" in a sentence? The Sloth can.


The speaker/writer implies, the listener infers. Give me something tough.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Moe C said:


> The speaker/writer implies, the listener infers. Give me something tough.


You retain your genius status!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

First, take note of the definition of "basic income".

A basic income is an income unconditionally granted to all on an individual basis, without means test or work requirement. It is a form of minimum income guarantee that differs from those that now exist in various European countries in three important ways: it is being paid to individuals rather than households;
What is basic income? | BIEN - Basic Income Earth Network
www.basicincome.org/basic-income/

Second, take note ofthe definition of "income".

Full Definition of INCOME
1
: a coming in : entrance, influx <fluctuations in the nutrient income of a body of water>
2
: a gain or recurrent benefit usually measured in money that derives from capital or labor; also : the amount of such gain received in a period of time <has an income of $30,000 a year>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/income

Next, take note that the quote " It is proposed the payments, as already stated, be made to every person rich or poor.", referred to "the payments as already stated". As he had "already stated" quoted here:

"To create a national fund, out of which there shall be paid to every person, when arrived at the age of twenty-one years, the sum of fifteen pounds sterling, as a compensation in part, for the loss of his or her natural inheritance, by the introduction of the system of landed property:

And also, the sum of ten pounds per annum, during life, to every person now living, of the age of fifty years, and to all others as they shall arrive at that age."

Remember the definition of "basic income"? "An income unconditionally granted to ALL on an individual basis. Paine did NOT advocate any kind of income for ALL. He proposed a one time payment to every person when they reached the age of 21, (he actually said it was in lieu of natural inheritance) and a once yearly payment to anyone over the age of 50 and the blind and lame. The life epectancy a that time was age 50. He proposed NO income for women or men between the age of 22-50.

Therefore, Paine did NOT advocate for a basic income.

That's ALL I've got to say on the subject!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My belief is someone verified their knowledge of Report Abuse. There appear to be few secrets at KP.



Snoop's.Doopy said:


> Except that he advocated for more than that ... a basic income.
> 
> Paine's ideas were not constant throughout his career. Paines experience of the French Revolution moved him sharply to the left.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Snoop's.Doopy said:


> Of course "that's all you've got to say' ... because what you've got to say is incomplete and you want to deny and run away from the FULL version of the argument.
> 
> Bottom line is that Paine believed QUOTE "_the basic needs of all humanity must be provided for by those with property_,"
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: My reading agrees with this post.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

I had the TV on this a.m. tuned to Pat Robertson; He is saying that the 'World Will End on Sept. 24th.' Don't know where he gets his info. :roll:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

mmorris said:


> I had the TV on this a.m. tuned to Pat Robertson; He is saying that the 'World Will End on Sept. 24th.' Don't know where he gets his info. :roll:


Better not end that day. It's DH's birthday, and I have plans.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Better not end that day. It's DH's birthday, and I have plans.


It is also the birthday of a dear friend who will be turning 75. She will welcome this news.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> It is also the birthday of a dear friend who will be turning 75. She will welcome this news.


What news? That the world will end that day?

Is this a friend that I know?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> What news? That the world will end that day?
> 
> Is this a friend that I know?


No. A friend from Florida. I sent you a bunch of wacky pms. Sorry for my mix-up.


----------



## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

JoyceinNC: Our SC winters are very mild; one inch of snow--schools and businesses close--not to mention the grocery stores. By the way, I'm from Durham--Blue Devil Country! :thumbup:


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Purl: Don't think we have anything to worry about! :-D


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

mmorris said:


> Purl: Don't think we have anything to worry about! :-D


You mean Pat Robertson might be wrong? Who woulda thunk it?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You mean Pat Robertson might be wrong? Who woulda thunk it?


PP - visit the new Attic, a section that just started. You now dwell there.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> PP - visit the new Attic, a section that just started. You now dwell there.


Done.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Is the attic the something big and horrible that is being predicted in this thread?


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

SQM said:


> Is the attic the something big and horrible that is being predicted in this thread?


Pat Robertson said the end will happen on the 24th. Maybe you should join me in the cellar. It might be safer. :XD:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Pat Robertson said the end will happen on the 24th. Maybe you should join me in the cellar. It might be safer. :XD:


Isn't this the same guy who predicted the end of the world a couple of years ago and placed himself in Times Square on the day and the time and then nothing happened?


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Isn't this the same guy who predicted the end of the world a couple of years ago and placed himself in Times Square on the day and the time and then nothing happened?


Yes, I think this is the third time for him. Used to be Popes giving these predictions but in recent years it has been RWN's. If these believers are so trusting in God why do they worry so. They mustnot believe they will be taken care of and so many of them are doomsday prepers too.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's big enough for me.



SQM said:


> Is the attic the something big and horrible that is being predicted in this thread?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Yes, I think this is the third time for him. Used to be Popes giving these predictions but in recent years it has been RWN's. If these believers are so trusting in God why do they worry so. They mustnot believe they will be taken care of and so many of them are doomsday prepers too.


Speaking of RWN's I just saw a news story on that Kentucky woman who is refusing to grant marriage licenses to same sex couples. Now she and her cohorts in her office are saying that G-d's law trumps common law. She is totally nuts and soooo arrogant!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Speaking of RWN's I just saw a news story on that Kentucky woman who is refusing to grant marriage licenses to same sex couples. Now she and her cohorts in her office are saying that G-d's law trumps common law. She is totally nuts and soooo arrogant!


Does she belong in the Attic according to the rules?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Does she belong in the Attic according to the rules?


Hi dear Sloth! No, she's a basement case. :mrgreen:

Do you know how to get to the Progressive Women's Forum?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Hi dear Sloth! No, she's a basement case. :mrgreen:
> 
> Do you know how to get to the Progressive Women's Forum?


yeah. Go to home and then find the PWF in the list. On the far left you will see the option to subscribe.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> yeah. Go to home and then find the PWF in the list. On the far left you will see the option to subscribe.


How come you're up so late?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I keep reminding myself she's just one person in Kentucky (probably influenced by a group) in one county in KY. So much for States Rights. (In this case she's really out on a limb. No Supreme Court intervention. )



Wombatnomore said:


> Speaking of RWN's I just saw a news story on that Kentucky woman who is refusing to grant marriage licenses to same sex couples. Now she and her cohorts in her office are saying that G-d's law trumps common law. She is totally nuts and soooo arrogant!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think you can just post or PM Cheeky Blighter to post in PWF.



Wombatnomore said:


> Hi dear Sloth! No, she's a basement case. :mrgreen:
> 
> Do you know how to get to the Progressive Women's Forum?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm usually up late too.



Wombatnomore said:


> How come you're up so late?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> How come you're up so late?


My life is upside down now that I am retired. Which makes sense to my little fellow on the Left.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

I didn't even realize I was in the attic--I go by "Watched topics" to follow threads. In fact I didn't even know there _is_ and Attic. I hate have to look at more than one forum to see what new threads there are. What a pain.


----------



## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

If I have to 'stay in the attic, I better start getting it cleaned up.' :XD: :XD:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

mmorris said:


> If I have to 'stay in the attic, I better start getting it cleaned up.' :XD: :XD:


You are hired.

Actually if we are in the Attic, we can say what we wish since we are in essence in isolation.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

I can't believe I spent two hours reading this post. My chose. So don't go off on me.

Must speak up to those who mention Medical directives.

As I went through this last year with my Dad. 

He did have a Medical Directive, but I was told it was out of date. Meaning he sign it at the age of 50 give or take a few years. When He became unconsious I was told that it was no longer valid. So I had to make the decision of what to do. I did as he had in his directive no furture help. 
I also had to decide if I wanted to keep him alive until my brother returned home. Knowing that I could extend his pain, but would help him in one area and he would be able to live longer maybe a day may be a week or month. But also he would have Hospic care. He be came consious because of it and was able to spend his time saying what needed to be said. He was with out pain in fact never used morphine. But he was given time on this earth to have his say.

So my word to all of you is to ask if there is a limit of time your directive is in effect each state may be different. 

As to telling anyone about Christ. Yes I believe in him. But I also believe unless Christ opens a person heart they will not except him. So I am not about to tell you where or when or how you are going. He knows I do not.

Is the world going to end in Sept. As God's said I only have today and there is enough to worry about in this day.
So tomorrow is not a worry for me.

I do not expect you to believe as I do. That is your chose and for God to decide. My belief again and does not have to be yours.

As to the way this site has gone, my gosh I wasted the time I have on this earth reading it. Wonder what I should have been doing.

As to Left or right??? Who knows who will be elected. I am independent and will decide that when it comes to that time. I am an open book as far as that is concern. Well not so I have pretty much decide whom I will vote for.


DGreen I posted what I did is all I could think of at the time, is do any of you realize how much time you have wasted in your life and I mean all of you not just one side. It has not change anyones opinion and wow as SQM said we could learn how to knit socks. Just kidding don't get upset. But really what if in the next hour day or week you die. Would your last thought be oh my gosh I could have posted that or I should have done this. Not me, I would like to waste my time finding joy in this day. Tomorrow is not promised today well lived is what I want.

To all I wish that joy for this day, to heck about worrying about tomorrow. 

Yeah life, boo turmoil(don't know if I spelt that right).


----------



## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> I go by "Watched topics" to follow threads. I hate have to look at more than one forum to see what new threads there are. What a pain.


Do you get an e-mail notification when there's a new post? That wouldn't tell you when a new subject starts though.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Isn't this the same guy who predicted the end of the world a couple of years ago and placed himself in Times Square on the day and the time and then nothing happened?


Charming man really, the type you take to Sunday dinner to meet your grandmother, the type you just sit and drool over. Check his credentials here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson_controversies


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Something big going to happen in September. How I wish it would be September 19th and Tony Rabbitt's mob get done like a dinner in the Canning by-election. I can but dream.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Moe C said:


> Do you get an e-mail notification when there's a new post? That wouldn't tell you when a new subject starts though.


All you have to do is subscribe to any section you want to see the threads in and if you make a comment in that thread you will then see it in your Watched Topics whenever you come to KP. What you suggest works too, Moe but this keeps your email freed up.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> I can't believe I spent two hours reading this post. My chose. So don't go off on me.
> 
> Must speak up to those who mention Medical directives.
> 
> ...


Hi Yarnie,
Thanks for your 'be in the present' message.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Something big going to happen in September. How I wish it would be September 19th and Tony Rabbitt's mob get done like a dinner in the Canning by-election. I can but dream.


You may be interested in this editorial from today's (or, for you, yesterday's) New York Times.

*Australias Brutal Treatment of Migrants*
By THE EDITORIAL BOARD SEPT. 3, 2015

Some European officials may be tempted to adopt the hard-line approach Australia has used to stem a similar tide of migrants. That would be unconscionable.

Prime Minister Tony Abbott has overseen a ruthlessly effective effort to stop boats packed with migrants, many of them refugees, from reaching Australias shores. His policies have been inhumane, of dubious legality and strikingly at odds with the countrys tradition of welcoming people fleeing persecution and war.

Since 2013, Australia has deployed its navy to turn back boats with migrants, including asylum seekers, before they could get close to its shores. Military personnel force vessels carrying people from Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Eritrea and other conflict-roiled nations toward Indonesia, where most of the journeys begin. A boat captain recently reported that Australian authorities paid him $30,000 to turn back. If true, that account, which the Australian government has not disputed, would represent a violation of international laws designed to prevent human smuggling and protect asylum seekers.

Those who have not been turned back are held at detention centers run by private contractors on nearby islands, including the tiny nation of Nauru. A report this week by an Australian Senate committee portrayed the Nauru center as a purgatory where children are sexually abused, guards give detainees marijuana in exchange for sex and some asylum seekers are so desperate that they stitch their lips shut in an act of protest. Instead of stopping the abuses, the Australian government has sought to hide them from the world.

The Border Force Act, which took effect July 1, makes it a crime punishable by a two-year prison sentence for employees at detention camps to discuss the conditions there publicly. Australia and Nauru, which depends heavily on Australian foreign aid, have gone to great lengths to keep international journalists from gaining access to the detention center, in which more than 2,200 people have been held since 2012. Last year, Nauru raised the fee it charges for journalists visas from $200 to roughly $8,000; applicants who are turned down are not given refunds.

Scores of people who have worked at the camp have become whistle-blowers. More than 40, including medical personnel and social workers, wrote a public letter to senior government officials in July saying they would rather risk arrest than stay quiet. If we witness child abuse in Australia we are legally obliged to report it to child protection authorities, they wrote. If we witness child abuse in detention centers, we can go to prison for attempting to advocate for them effectively.

European officials have traveled to Australia on fact-finding missions recently. Mr. Abbott, who argues that aggressively intercepting the boats saves lives, has urged European governments to follow his model, and some European leaders seem so inclined.

The Australian model may seem attractive to politicians, said Leonard Doyle, a spokesman for the International Organization for Migration. Politicians love fences, but what fences do is create a market for smugglers and major humanitarian problems.

The worlds war zones are all but certain to continue to churn out an extraordinary number of refugees and economic migrants in the years ahead. Those people understandably will head to the most prosperous nations, hoping to rebuild their lives. It is inexcusable that some find themselves today in situations that are more hopeless and degrading than the ones that prompted them to flee.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/03/opinion/australias-brutal-treatment-of-migrants.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That's how Admin welcomes liberals. Isn't that special?



sumpleby said:


> I didn't even realize I was in the attic--I go by "Watched topics" to follow threads. In fact I didn't even know there _is_ and Attic. I hate have to look at more than one forum to see what new threads there are. What a pain.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't believe that. If 'someone' reports abuse?



SQM said:


> You are hired.
> 
> Actually if we are in the Attic, we can say what we wish since we are in essence in isolation.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> I don't believe that. If 'someone' reports abuse?


We are already in detention. The worst that can happen is that Ostrich opens up a dungeon. But doesn't Judyjudy already live in Dungeon?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Look who's here in the Attic. As I said there is no benefit to liberals being banished to the Attic...punishment only....oh yes, and saving our 'guests' from being exposed to us. IMHO



theyarnlady said:


> I can't believe I spent two hours reading this post. My chose. So don't go off on me.
> 
> Must speak up to those who mention Medical directives.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I believe the notification only pops in if you post each time you read. They are hoping it dries up....quick. IMHO



Moe C said:


> Do you get an e-mail notification when there's a new post? That wouldn't tell you when a new subject starts though.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Money grubbing hypocrite, if you ask me.



EveMCooke said:


> Charming man really, the type you take to Sunday dinner to meet your grandmother, the type you just sit and drool over. Check his credentials here
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson_controversies


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And.....here's joey.



joeysomma said:


> :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Something big going to happen in September. How I wish it would be September 19th and Tony Rabbitt's mob get done like a dinner in the Canning by-election. I can but dream.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

damemary said:


> Look who's here in the Attic. As I said there is no benefit to liberals being banished to the Attic...punishment only....oh yes, and saving our 'guests' from being exposed to us. IMHO


This topic is not in the Attic, it's still in Chit Chat. Users (liberal or not) haven't been banished anywhere, only a few topics Admin has decided are overly contentious have been moved.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You may be interested in this editorial from today's (or, for you, yesterday's) New York Times.
> 
> *Australias Brutal Treatment of Migrants*
> By THE EDITORIAL BOARD SEPT. 3, 2015
> ...


Thanks for the post but I am well up on our refugee policies and I do not agree with the present government's attitude. I have never been in favour of refugees being held behind razor wire and most definitely not in favour of children being held in detention centres. There is another Australian poster who seldom posts but she is dead set against letting any refugees into Australia. I think she has a cold heart.

*I most definitely hope that the rest of the world does not follow Tony Abbbott's heartless treatment of refugees*

I also strongly disagree with all the secrecy Tony Abbott has placed around the policy of turning back the boats. I strongly disagree with the refugees being picked up by naval vessels mid ocean and interrogated at sea without legal representation, then handed back to the country they fled from.

We had two excellent TV series on the SBS network entitled "go back to where you came from". They took several Australians to visit refugee centres in various parts of the world to see the problem first hand. They visited refugee detention centres in Indonesia. They also visited the war zones in the middle east and the Burma, Thailand border. They visited the site of the notorious camp where Burmese refugees were killed and burried whilst trying to escape. Some of the participants were dead set against Australia accepting refugees and some were in favour. At the end of the series those who opposed refugees had changed their views. They saw first hand what refugees go through.

We have a lot of refugees living close by, our fruit and vegie shop owners are a family of refugees from Afghanistan, they are Hazaras. Dad and the son, Romat, came out first and when they were settled and granted refugee status they sent for the wife and daughter, the youngest daughter was born in Australia. They are now true blue Aussies.

I have always fought for the right of refugees to seek asylum in Australia. We accepted Vietnamese refugees after the Vietnam war. In the seven years ending in 1982 Australia accepted close to 60,000 Vietnamese refugees, most via plane. While more than 2000 Vietnamese people came to Australia in unauthorised boats in the seven years following the fall of Saigon.

Some people think that all refugees are Muslim, this is not the case. The refugees from Sri Lanka were Tamils and Hindus. Many refugees from Vietnam were Catholics. Many refugees from other countries are Christian.

I could write a book on my feelings and support for refugees. It is the main reason why I stopped attending the Swan Valley Spinning Group. I had been going there for nearly 20 years but stopped going 2 years ago because of the attitude of several of the members. One woman was violently opposed to refugees, she said they were only 'economic migrants'. This really upset me. Her father was Polish and fled Poland to escape from Hitler. He fled to England and joined the Free Polish Army to fight during WW11. After the war he could not go back to Poland because of Stalin. He had married an English girl and had two daughters, one of whom was attending the Swan Valley Spinners. This woman suffered prejudice as a child, her maternal grandmother, English, would tell people "It is a pity their father is an alien". She could not become a Civil Servant in England and work for the Government because her father was Polish. The family came to Australia in the 1960s as Ten Pound Poms, they paid only Ten Pounds for their boat trip to Australia. She then worked as a civil servant in Australia. To my mind I would classify her family as 'economic migrants'. But she wanted to send all the Afghan migrants back because she classified them as 'economic migrants' and therefore should not be allowed to settle in Australia. She could not see the flaw in her argument. I decided I did not want to attend the group any more because of the lack of understanding and downright hostility some people were expressing against refugees. I voted with my feet.

Australia is a multicultural nation and refugees and migrants have always made a valuable contribution to our society. We had migrants from many countries settle here after the war and all have added to the diversity of our nation.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

west coast kitty said:


> This topic is not in the Attic, it's still in Chit Chat. Users (liberal or not) haven't been banished anywhere, only a few topics Admin has decided are overly contentious have been moved.


Oh this post made me sad and upset. We want the Attic. We want the Attic. We want the Attic.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Is 'someone' playing games?



SQM said:


> Oh this post made me sad and upset. We want the Attic. We want the Attic. We want the Attic.


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## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

SQM said:


> Oh this post made me sad and upset. We want the Attic. We want the Attic. We want the Attic.


 :lol:


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## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

damemary said:


> Is 'someone' playing games?


If you check the top of the screen you will see you are still in Chit Chat


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

west coast kitty said:


> :lol:


Thankfully I clipped my nails today otherwise I would relate even more than I do now.

Tell your friends not to mess with me, Ms. Kitty.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Moe C said:


> Do you get an e-mail notification when there's a new post? That wouldn't tell you when a new subject starts though.


No, I don't get emails when there are new posts. I just check "watched topics" when I open the site.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Thanks for the post but I am well up on our refugee policies and I do not agree with the present government's attitude. I have never been in favour of refugees being held behind razor wire and most definitely not in favour of children being held in detention centres. There is another Australian poster who seldom posts but she is dead set against letting any refugees into Australia. I think she has a cold heart.
> 
> *I most definitely hope that the rest of the world does not follow Tony Abbbott's heartless treatment of refugees*
> 
> ...


It has never appeared to me that you agreed with your government's policy on many things. I passed it on because it was the first time I'd seen anything negative about Australia in the NY Times. And it was a rare angry editorial, too.

Your stories about the immigrants you know are always interesting, and the one about the woman from Poland was especially so. It's too bad you were the one who felt forced to leave. I wonder whether that woman has a good reason for wanting to keep out the current wave of refugees pouring into Europe. They're certainly not just economic refugees.

Not that we Americans are any better. Look at how the presidential wannabes talk about emigrants from Mexico. What would they say about the hundreds of thousands of displaced families wandering all over Europe? The Times's editorial seems to say we must take care of them, but I know that won't happen, not without a big fight.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

west coast kitty said:


> This topic is not in the Attic, it's still in Chit Chat. Users (liberal or not) haven't been banished anywhere, only a few topics Admin has decided are overly contentious have been moved.


Are you trying to reassure us? That's very sweet of you, but there are some here who like the thought of being transported to some reform school on high. (I'm not one of them; I just follow my Watched Topics and have no idea whether they're in the attic, in the basement, or on the road.)

I wonder what makes a topic overly contentious, as opposed to merely contentious.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Oh this post made me sad and upset. We want the Attic. We want the Attic. We want the Attic.


Throwing a tantrum is not the way to deal with it!!!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

west coast kitty said:


> :lol:


What a great picture. I love the facial expression.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

west coast kitty said:


> This topic is not in the Attic, it's still in Chit Chat. Users (liberal or not) haven't been banished anywhere, only a few topics Admin has decided are overly contentious have been moved.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:

They are not all Political threads either- I agree.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It has never appeared to me that you agreed with your government's policy on many things. I passed it on because it was the first time I'd seen anything negative about Australia in the NY Times. And it was a rare angry editorial, too.
> 
> Your stories about the immigrants you know are always interesting, and the one about the woman from Poland was especially so. It's too bad you were the one who felt forced to leave. I wonder whether that woman has a good reason for wanting to keep out the current wave of refugees pouring into Europe. They're certainly not just economic refugees.
> 
> Not that we Americans are any better. Look at how the presidential wannabes talk about emigrants from Mexico. What would they say about the hundreds of thousands of displaced families wandering all over Europe? The Times's editorial seems to say we must take care of them, but I know that won't happen, not without a big fight.


Just a little update on this topic. Here is the latest utterance from Tony Abbott, the Australian Prime Minister .

Tony Abbott says Australia will accept more Syria refugees but within current intake, Peter Dutton to travel to Geneva for UN talks on crisis
Updated about 11 hours ago

VIDEO: Government prepared to increase Syria refugee intake, PM says (ABC News)

PHOTO: The Prime Minister says Australia will increase the number of Syrian refugees, but not the overall refugee intake (AAP: Lukas Coch)
RELATED STORY: Austria, Germany open borders to asylum seekers offloaded by Hungary
RELATED STORY: Australia should do more for asylum seekers, 'do it now': Baird
RELATED STORY: Melbourne commuters donate $30,000 to asylum seekers

Prime Minister Tony Abbott says he is prepared to "step up to the plate" and increase the number of refugees Australia accepts from war-torn Syria, but within the current humanitarian intake.

Mr Abbott was urged to increase Australia's refugee intake after photos of drowned Syrian toddler Aylan Kurdi on a Turkish beach shocked the world and put a human face to the dangers refugees risk trying to reach safety.

On Sunday afternoon the Prime Minister told a press conference he was moved by the images of Aylan, and was prepared to lift the percentage of refugees Australia takes from Syria.

*But he said the increase would not mean Australia's overall yearly intake of refugees, which stands at 13,750, would go up.*

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-06/abbott-vows-australia-will-help-syria-refugees/6753220

I think that this statement *But he said the increase would not mean Australia's overall yearly intake of refugees, which stands at 13,750, would go up.* says it all. It shows that Tony Abbott does not have a heart and is only paying lip service to solving the refugee problem.

At the present time he and he alone seems to make all the decisions. We are governed by him and the decisions he makes in secret. He has stopped the weekly press briefings on the subject of refugees. He refuses to tell the Australian public how many boats he has stopped and what has happened to the refugees on board those boats. In fact he also refuses to tell the public if a refugee boat has been stopped. He refuses to tell the people how much his 'Sovereign Borders' policy is costing. He likes to keep people in the dark. At present decisions are being made by his Ministers without reference to Parliament and these decisions are not put to the vote in either house of Parliament.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

The date 15th September was mentioned.

Did anyone else hear this message on the news or see this article published on the net?



> Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban has said that by mid-September, Budapest should have a package of regulations in place to tackle the growing number of migrants. He said Hungarians are 'full of fear' because Europe is unable to 'control the situation.'
> 
> "We Hungarians are full of fear, people in Europe are full of fear because they see that the European leaders, among them prime ministers, are not able to control the situation," Orban said on Thursday, after a meeting with European Parliament President Martin Schulz in Brussels.
> The prime minister added: "I came here to inform the president that Hungary is doing everything possible to maintain order. We are creating now in the Hungarian parliament a new package of regulations, we set up a physical barrier and all these together will provide a new situation in Hungary and in Europe from September 15. Now we have one week of preparation time."


Please read the full article at this link

http://www.rt.com/news/314191-hungary-pm-refugee-crisis/


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

That's a wonderful story about the 9/28 event.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Today is September 26,2015. Earth's still spinning. Has Chicken Little lost again?


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## Moe C (Jul 31, 2011)

damemary said:


> Today is September 26,2015. Earth's still spinning. Has Chicken Little lost again?


I've been thinking about that too. A blood moon and eclipse to get through and that's it for September. The stock market has been volatile and is down from its 2015 high, but no crash.
The Shemitah year, which is what I spoke about early in this thread, ended Sept 13, but was never tied to a single date and can still have an effect (or not). 
Then, there could be something that happens later that had its inception in September. 
I'm not looking for trouble, I do not like any sort of boat-rocking.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I forgot about this thread. I guess I was too busy preparing for my demise. Yet here I still am. Another Doomsday warning that came and went. No fun.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Au contraire. It's much more fun this way. Onward.



SQM said:


> I forgot about this thread. I guess I was too busy preparing for my demise. Yet here I still am. Another Doomsday warning that came and went. No fun.


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