# Healthcare workers walkout



## Tigerwiggy (Apr 24, 2013)

I am a fully vaccinated healthcare worker. I work for a large healthcare system that has mandated vaccination, as have many other HC systems in my state, and likely across the US. A walkout is scheduled for today (according to the rumor mill). We were short-staffed before COVID, and burnout has caused many others to leave. I don't plan to leave. HC as you know it is about to change. There will be long waits. There is currently about a 3-day wait to get a bed, and probably a 24-hr wait to be seen in the ER. The ICU beds are full. They are bringing in staff from around the US so you may get someone who is new, whose personality is different, etc. We may be deployed to cover areas that are short-staffed and foreign to us. There is no "normal" for us now. I have heard many other states are also planning walkouts. Please be patient with HC workers you encounter and pray for us. Our mental health is already fragile.


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## flhusker (Feb 17, 2011)

Where is this happening!


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## katrapp (Mar 21, 2013)

How awful!!! I know we are backed up here, and I have heard of many worse areas. But a walk-out just because of a couple of shots. Stupid.


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## CornishKnitter (Jan 23, 2016)

Wishing you well from the UK and praying for you. I can't begin to imagine how awful it has been for healthcare workers. I hope you all get the support you need. Bless you.


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## martina (Jun 24, 2012)

Tigerwiggy said:


> I am a fully vaccinated healthcare worker. I work for a large healthcare system that has mandated vaccination, as have many other HC systems in my state, and likely across the US. A walkout is scheduled for today (according to the rumor mill). We were short-staffed before COVID, and burnout has caused many others to leave. I don't plan to leave. HC as you know it is about to change. There will be long waits. There is currently about a 3-day wait to get a bed, and probably a 24-hr wait to be seen in the ER. The ICU beds are full. They are bringing in staff from around the US so you may get someone who is new, whose personality is different, etc. We may be deployed to cover areas that are short-staffed and foreign to us. There is no "normal" for us now. I have heard many other states are also planning walkouts. Please be patient with HC workers you encounter and pray for us. Our mental health is already fragile.


You are doing a great job by getting the vaccine and carrying on working. I hope it goes as smoothly as possible for you and your still working colleagues. As a former nurse I deplore the actions of those who choose to put themselves , colleagues and patients at risk.


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## dcgmom (Jul 3, 2019)

I have not heard about any walk outs in the US. Where are they?as far as I know traveling nurses are pretty common in the US. Quite a few nurses do it for the money. When I was in the hospital a year ago, I met quite a few traveling nurses. The care I received from them was as good, if not better than I received from the nurses working at the hospital full time. 
As for walking out which is because of Covid shots. I cannot support them in this. There is a vaccine available and they should get it. The last time I was in the hospital, I asked everyone I came in contact with if they had had the shots. They all said yes except one nurse who was breastfeeding. I would not be comfortable under the care of someone who was not vaccinated.


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## Ladyj960 (May 22, 2013)

We all should just be patient with everyone. We don’t know what someone may be going through.


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## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

Perhaps they simply don't belong in a HC career. Anyone who would not see the affects of a pandemic on a population where over 600,000 people have died does not belong in a group designated to helping people. Their actions are perpetuating this disease. Hope they have another way to make money. Their rights do not supersede our right not to catch covid from them in a hospital.


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## Irene Kidney (May 29, 2011)

Health workers are badly stretched and on the brink of breakdowns around the world, God Bless you all and yes will pray. Our NHS is falling apart in UK, people waiting in pain for years for an operation. Nightmare covid!


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

flhusker said:


> Where is this happening!


All over.


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

katrapp said:


> How awful!!! I know we are backed up here, and I have heard of many worse areas. But a walk-out just because of a couple of shots. Stupid.


It's due to more than just two shots.
It's due to being burned out. People
getting sick due to refusal to have shots,
taking up space in hospitals, would depress
anyone. It's too bad you can't fix stupid.


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## rujam (Aug 19, 2011)

I'm glad you have had your shots but I cannot understand the objection of having the jabs.


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## Bizzyneedles55 (Jul 13, 2018)

I was in hospital 3 times in August. On one trip to the ER, there was only one nurse on duty all night. I felt so sorry for him, but he carried on like a trooper with a smile on his face. Other nurses from other areas would pop in from time to time to help, but it was crazy, I don't know how he did it. They told me that many nurses have quit due to the covid overload, so sad.


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## MMWRay (Dec 2, 2016)

As a health care worker I support you. I just don't begin to comprehend how getting a vaccine is not part of a health care workers job. Walking out will benefit no one and will hurt the patients.
Yes burnout is a real problem. I experienced that the first time I retired and that was a decade ago. Took me a year to mostly recoup from that and take a part time job I loved.
Prayers for you and best luck. Just do what you can.


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## marlo (Nov 6, 2011)

I spoke to my son yesterday who works in a hospital in Oregon. He told me that 45 people were admitted last week with Covid. 25 of the 45 patients were not vaxxed.


crochetknit Deb said:


> It's due to more than just two shots.
> It's due to being burned out. People
> getting sick due to refusal to have shots,
> taking up space in hospitals, would depress
> anyone. It's too bad you can't fix stupid.


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## seamer45 (Jan 18, 2011)

This poster said they may be deployed to other areas. That signifies it’s not voluntary. Traveling nurses are people who choose to go from place to place,under normal circumstances they get to pick where they go. My daughter was a traveling nurse 20 years ago and worked in many states across the US. Always her choice and she worked for an agency that coordinated their choices, not an individual hospital


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## flohel (Jan 24, 2011)

Nothing is stupid about this. These workers are expected to help those who refuse to help themselves and put other in danger by not getting vaccinated.


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## yourmother306 (Nov 30, 2011)

God bless the OP.
I am with you!


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## Jazzynitter (Oct 14, 2019)

In Canada, not only are our healthcare workers dealing with burnout, and anti vaxxers who are overtaxing the healthcare system, they are being targeted by anti mask and vax pickets and demonstrations at the hospitals where they work. I can't imagine running a gauntlet of abuse every day on your way to a job that is becoming increasingly stressful. No wonder so many decide that it's not worth it anymore and quit.


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## PatK27 (Oct 13, 2016)

dcgmom said:


> I have not heard about any walk outs in the US. Where are they?as far as I know traveling nurses are pretty common in the US. Quite a few nurses do it for the money. When I was in the hospital a year ago, I met quite a few traveling nurses. The care I received from them was as good, if not better than I received from the nurses working at the hospital full time.
> As for walking out which is because of Covid shots. I cannot support them in this. There is a vaccine available and they should get it. The last time I was in the hospital, I asked everyone I came in contact with if they had had the shots. They all said yes except one nurse who was breastfeeding. I would not be comfortable under the care of someone who was not vaccinated.


I don't believe the walkout is due to mandated vaccination for hospital staff. I believe it s due to staffing shortages and the inability to provide adequate care to the patients.
Unvaccinated people are the ones causing this. They are the ones causing the shortage of hospital beds, the long waits in the ER,
delayed/postponed surgeries.


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## Pinkpaisley (Mar 11, 2015)

quilter said:


> Perhaps they simply don't belong in a HC career. Anyone who would not see the affects of a pandemic on a population where over 600,000 people have died does not belong in a group designated to helping people. Their actions are perpetuating this disease. Hope they have another way to make money. Their rights do not supersede our right not to catch covid from them in a hospital.


Well said.


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## mea (Jan 21, 2011)

I’m now at the point where I would support an action like this under certain circumstances. Let all the vaccinated HC workers out so they can stop endangering their own lives to save idiots who refused to be vaccinated. Let the HC workers out, let all the unvaccinated in, AND LOCK THE DOORS. We will eventually see our new Covid case numbers decrease. Guaranteed. If they don’t care I don’t care.


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## nomadbubbe (Feb 25, 2012)

There is a special place in heaven for all those who are on the front lines.


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## JennyG12 (Jan 24, 2016)

You all are only going with certain areas that are being reported about.

There are alot more vaccinated folks getting it again and hospitalized yet again. So don't point and wag those fingers at all of the unvaccinated, for whatever reason they don't; and continue to harrass/blame/belittle/name call, etc. You all do not know the whole truth. Not your fault, as the media wants to help the vaccination push.


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## JennyG12 (Jan 24, 2016)

Tigerwiggy said:


> I am a fully vaccinated healthcare worker. I work for a large healthcare system that has mandated vaccination, as have many other HC systems in my state, and likely across the US. A walkout is scheduled for today (according to the rumor mill). We were short-staffed before COVID, and burnout has caused many others to leave. I don't plan to leave. HC as you know it is about to change. There will be long waits. There is currently about a 3-day wait to get a bed, and probably a 24-hr wait to be seen in the ER. The ICU beds are full. They are bringing in staff from around the US so you may get someone who is new, whose personality is different, etc. We may be deployed to cover areas that are short-staffed and foreign to us. There is no "normal" for us now. I have heard many other states are also planning walkouts. Please be patient with HC workers you encounter and pray for us. Our mental health is already fragile.


Where in NC is this happening?


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

marlo said:


> I spoke to my son yesterday who works in a hospital in Oregon. He told me that 45 people were admitted last week with Covid. 25 of the 45 patients were not vaxxed.


Wow, that's more than 50%!
Just ain't no fixin.... Maybe 
we should let them fend for
them selves.


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## Jazzynitter (Oct 14, 2019)

JennyG12 said:


> You all are only going with certain areas that are being reported about.
> 
> There are alot more vaccinated folks getting it again and hospitalized yet again. So don't point and wag those fingers at all of the unvaccinated, for whatever reason they don't; and continue to harrass/blame/belittle/name call, etc. You all do not know the whole truth. Not your fault, as the media wants to help the vaccination push.


Then maybe you can enlighten us. Hospitalizations are overwhelmingly among the unvaccinated and under vaccinated and not all of them can claim exemptions based on medical restrictions. Masks and vaccinations have become politicized. I will support anyone's right to not get vaccinated or wear a mask if they will accept the corresponding responsibility to never leave their home for non essential reasons until this is over. All they're doing is increasing the chances for exposure for the rest of us and giving the virus a host for growing and mutating.


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## marthat (Jun 23, 2016)

flohel said:


> Nothing is stupid about this. These workers are expected to help those who refuse to help themselves and put other in danger by not getting vaccinated.


I think what many of us think stupid are the people who endanger the rest of us by not being vaccinated.


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## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

Tigerwiggy said:


> I am a fully vaccinated healthcare worker. I work for a large healthcare system that has mandated vaccination, as have many other HC systems in my state, and likely across the US. A walkout is scheduled for today (according to the rumor mill). We were short-staffed before COVID, and burnout has caused many others to leave. I don't plan to leave. HC as you know it is about to change. There will be long waits. There is currently about a 3-day wait to get a bed, and probably a 24-hr wait to be seen in the ER. The ICU beds are full. They are bringing in staff from around the US so you may get someone who is new, whose personality is different, etc. We may be deployed to cover areas that are short-staffed and foreign to us. There is no "normal" for us now. I have heard many other states are also planning walkouts. Please be patient with HC workers you encounter and pray for us. Our mental health is already fragile.


You have my empathy and as much support as I can give. I know many who are running low on reserves and who are showing up daily to tend those selfish, and thoughtless people? who refuse to do what is necessary to fight Covid.

Unless there is a ,,valid medical,, reason for not being vaccinated, there is NO reason not to be vaccinated. They are all excuses based on selfishness.


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## jditlin (Mar 13, 2011)

I agree. I just read last night about a man that needed an ICU bed for a heart condition and they had to transport him over 200 miles from his home to get him into a bed. He passed away after they got him there. I totally understand the frustration of medical staff having to deal with all the unvaccinated covid patients and then having to turn away seriously ill regular patients because of the covid patients. What I cannot wrap my head around is the unwillingness of so many of the health care workers to get the vaccine themselves. Hospitals had been running short-staffed before covid, and with the staff that has been lost due to illness/death and leaving the field, the healthcare industry could be considered in crisis now.


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## Murphie (Jan 6, 2019)

JennyG12 said:


> You all are only going with certain areas that are being reported about.
> 
> There are alot more vaccinated folks getting it again and hospitalized yet again. So don't point and wag those fingers at all of the unvaccinated, for whatever reason they don't; and continue to harrass/blame/belittle/name call, etc. You all do not know the whole truth. Not your fault, as the media wants to help the vaccination push.


And I suppose you know the whole truth? Please tell us.


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## Morningstar2 (Mar 27, 2019)

Tigerwiggy said:


> I am a fully vaccinated healthcare worker. I work for a large healthcare system that has mandated vaccination, as have many other HC systems in my state, and likely across the US. A walkout is scheduled for today (according to the rumor mill). We were short-staffed before COVID, and burnout has caused many others to leave. I don't plan to leave. HC as you know it is about to change. There will be long waits. There is currently about a 3-day wait to get a bed, and probably a 24-hr wait to be seen in the ER. The ICU beds are full. They are bringing in staff from around the US so you may get someone who is new, whose personality is different, etc. We may be deployed to cover areas that are short-staffed and foreign to us. There is no "normal" for us now. I have heard many other states are also planning walkouts. Please be patient with HC workers you encounter and pray for us. Our mental health is already fragile.


My heart goes out to all of you, all over our country. As a retired RN, when I see an hear what you are faced with around the clock, I can't imagine how you are able to handle it all this time with no end in sight. So many of us wish we were able to go back and offer some relief but, people like us (in our 80's now) would only be in the way. Please take care of yourselves as best you can.


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## Morningstar2 (Mar 27, 2019)

flhusker said:


> Where is this happening!


In your state and many other states in the USA!


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## LizR (Jan 17, 2015)

MMWRay said:


> As a health care worker I support you. I just don't begin to comprehend how getting a vaccine is not part of a health care workers job. Walking out will benefit no one and will hurt the patients.
> Yes burnout is a real problem. I experienced that the first time I retired and that was a decade ago. Took me a year to mostly recoup from that and take a part time job I loved.
> Prayers for you and best luck. Just do what you can.


The op is in NC like you. Have you heard any rumours about a walk out? Perhaps it is just local where she works.


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## Morningstar2 (Mar 27, 2019)

dcgmom said:


> I have not heard about any walk outs in the US. Where are they?as far as I know traveling nurses are pretty common in the US. Quite a few nurses do it for the money. When I was in the hospital a year ago, I met quite a few traveling nurses. The care I received from them was as good, if not better than I received from the nurses working at the hospital full time.
> As for walking out which is because of Covid shots. I cannot support them in this. There is a vaccine available and they should get it. The last time I was in the hospital, I asked everyone I came in contact with if they had had the shots. They all said yes except one nurse who was breastfeeding. I would not be comfortable under the care of someone who was not vaccinated.


The walkouts I'm aware of have been temporary, a few at a time, to protest the need for more help, space and supplies.


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## Morningstar2 (Mar 27, 2019)

Jazzynitter said:


> In Canada, not only are our healthcare workers dealing with burnout, and anti vaxxers who are overtaxing the healthcare system, they are being targeted by anti mask and vax pickets and demonstrations at the hospitals where they work. I can't imagine running a gauntlet of abuse every day on your way to a job that is becoming increasingly stressful. No wonder so many decide that it's not worth it anymore and quit.


Exactly.


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## JennyG12 (Jan 24, 2016)

Morningstar2 said:


> The walkouts I'm aware of have been temporary, a few at a time, to protest the need for more help, space and supplies.


 Yes and sporatic over the last 1.5 years, the last one in the news was in July outside the USA, the one prior was in June in the USA. Most that I have read only lasted a very short time.


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## bakrmom (May 30, 2011)

I have had many healthcare workers in my family. There have always been certain vaccines/ immunizations they are required to have. Why is this different?


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## Beachgirl1000 (Sep 29, 2015)

JennyG12 said:


> You all are only going with certain areas that are being reported about.
> 
> There are alot more vaccinated folks getting it again and hospitalized yet again. So don't point and wag those fingers at all of the unvaccinated, for whatever reason they don't; and continue to harrass/blame/belittle/name call, etc. You all do not know the whole truth. Not your fault, as the media wants to help the vaccination push.


Sorry, but hospitals are telling us that the overwhelming majority of their Covid patients are unvaccinated. There are breakthrough cases in vaccinated people, but it's the elderly, particularly the frail elderly, as well as others who have preexisting medical conditions, who are mostly hospitalized with Covid. It's a small percentage of the many millions who have been vaccinated and gotten a breakthrough case. Most are either very mild cases or asymptomatic.


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## JennyG12 (Jan 24, 2016)

Beachgirl1000 said:


> Sorry, but hospitals are telling us that the overwhelming majority of their Covid patients are unvaccinated. There are breakthrough cases in vaccinated people, but it's the elderly, particularly the frail elderly, as well as others who have preexisting medical conditions, who are mostly hospitalized with Covid. It's a small percentage of the many millions who have been vaccinated and gotten a breakthrough case. Most are either very mild cases or asymptomatic.


So the frail and elderly do have an excuse to not get the shot, but they are also damned by the public because they didn't!

I agree that some hospitals do come forward to the media and state their numbers for the day (week), but it is not the full picture all over the USA. There are also those areas that the media hype is not the case in their areas. Many even state that it is the vaccinated that are filling up their ICU's. So can not blame them either for not getting the shot(s) because they had, and they still getting verbally chastised and threatened. All people are hearing is that the amount of people in the hospital/ICU's and rumors start flying.


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## Irene1 (Oct 23, 2013)

We get frequent updates here on the number of. COVID patients in the hospital, and how many are unvaccinated or vaccinated. Yes, there are break through infections, often among the frail and elderly (has to do with an aging immune system), but there seem to be two statistics that are consistent: vaccinated patients in ICU: 0; vaccinated on vents: 0. Our seniors are overwhelmingly vaccinated, but may need a booster. They are NOT among the unvaccinated filling our hospitals.


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

marlo said:


> I spoke to my son yesterday who works in a hospital in Oregon. He told me that 45 people were admitted last week with Covid. 25 of the 45 patients were not vaxxed.


What area of Oregon does your son work in? If a hospital admitted that many breakthrough cases, it would make for big news and reported all over the media. Haven't seen anything so far and I live in Oregon. Here's the most current statistics of breakthrough cases in Oregon through Sept. 4th:

https://www.oregon.gov/oha/covid19/Documents/DataReports/Breakthrough-Case-Report.pdf


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Our big medical facility, largest between San Francisco and Portland, has been reporting numbers daily..largest majority are unvaccinated. There were huge rallies outside the facility also. The reason I am hearing, is because they do not want a vaccine that has not had the 5-10 yr studies. They are concerned about p[ossible side effects. They said it is their Constitutional rights to refuse the vaccine. Yes, you can still get Covid if vaccinated, the claim of complete immunity was never made to me. I was told, it would reduce the severity of the symptoms, my chances of being hospitalized is lower, the odds of a ventilator lowers. Anyone can get Covid a second time, the most likely are the unvaccinated that have had it once already. The common thought is you can not because now your immune system fought it off and you are immune..not true. The odds of being hit a second time are greater, since your lungs etc are now in a weakened condition, straight from the horses mouth, local virus specialist. I also had a cousin that's husband got Covid, not too severe, he just was run down, feverish at first they thought it was a cold. he kicked it out, 3 weeks later he had it again and was hospitlized Covid pneumonia. Is he vaccinated nope! The other issue is if you have Covid, and are A-symptomatic is people believe they cannot pass it, wrong again..you continue to shed the virus period. There is so much false news about this, I just go straight to the best sources I know. My doctor, the local disease specialists, and nurses I know in the community. There are so many telling various stories, and claiming the media is lying, I just skip the whole mess, and speak to those I know. I also have a neighbor in her 90's fully vaccinated, had her booster, no problems no infection, cousins in their mid 80's vaccinated, no issues. By the way, it was their GS in law that had Covid pneumonia.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Nurses are burned out! No days off for long stretches, longer hours, more intense care. They have always had to have certain vaccinations to work, this one, they do not trust because of fast tracking it. They also said their natural immune system will fight it off. Traveling nurses have been brought in, some nuts are calling them scabs, nurses I know are happy to have them, it gives them a little breathing room. Takes some of the load off them. There has been a nursing shortage for as far back as I can remember. That is not new, but...the stress put on them right now, is destroying their morale, it makes them want out, they don't see an end, being required to get vaccinated, is just adding another layer. I think we all need to help them, get vaccinated if you can. That is all I see that might help our health care workers.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Nurses are burned out! No days off for long stretches, longer hours, more intense care. They have always had to have certain vaccinations to work, this one, they do not trust because of fast tracking it. They also said their natural immune system will fight it off. Traveling nurses have been brought in, some nuts are calling them scabs, nurses I know are happy to have them, it gives them a little breathing room. Takes some of the load off them. There has been a nursing shortage for as far back as I can remember. That is not new, but...the stress put on them right now, is destroying their morale, it makes them want out, they don't see an end, being required to get vaccinated, is just adding another layer. I think we all need to help them, get vaccinated if you can. That is all I see that might help our health care workers.


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

Here's something to think about - many hospitals are overwhelmed by Covid patients - especially hospitals in areas with low vaccination rates. That means those hospitals are being stretched way beyond normal limits with doctors & nurses unable to give individual patients the attention they need, hence greater possibility of death. Also, there are hospitals that are doing what is called "crisis standards of care" which means those hospitals will ration care to those with a greater chance of survival. 

My wish is that everyone get the vaccine. If everyone did then there would be far less patients in hospitals as it would only be breakthrough cases. Also, wearing a mask means less spread to those who are vulnerable, thus less breakthrough cases. The hospitals would then be able to give care such that most, if not all Covid patients would survive. 

It's the simple logic of taking a shot that could save not just yourself, but your neighbors as well and the hospital staff would be able to return to a normal care situation.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

quilter said:


> Perhaps they simply don't belong in a HC career. Anyone who would not see the affects of a pandemic on a population where over 600,000 people have died does not belong in a group designated to helping people. Their actions are perpetuating this disease. Hope they have another way to make money. Their rights do not supersede our right not to catch covid from them in a hospital.


There may be very valid reasons for some to not get vaccinated.


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

Evie RM said:


> There may be very valid reasons for some to not get vaccinated.


That would be a tiny percentage of folks if that were true as the vaccinations have been proven to be safe for pretty much everyone except for very young folks (which could be available by the end of the year). Unfortunately, the vast majority of anti-vaxxers do not have valid reasons.


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

spins2knit said:


> You have my empathy and as much support as I can give. I know many who are running low on reserves and who are showing up daily to tend those selfish, and thoughtless people? who refuse to do what is necessary to fight Covid.
> 
> Unless there is a ,,valid medical,, reason for not being vaccinated, there is NO reason not to be vaccinated. They are all excuses based on selfishness.


I have at lease two in laws who refuse
the vaccine. They do not see it as
necessary. They don't know what's 
in it, plus they believe it causes
serious problems down the road.
My DH who tried to tell them the
vaccine did not cause our one BIL
to have a vessel in his brain to
burst and him to die, they said
you're wrong! DH shook his head
and walked away.


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## KateLyn11 (Jul 19, 2014)

I haven’t read a single comment on KP that is against those who CAN’T get vaccinated, they plus those that believe they have legitimate concerns about the vaccine and who take other infection control measures; wearing a mask, wash/sanitizing their hands, staying out of crowds to protect not only themselves but others, these groups are not the issue.

It is the “you’re not the boss of me” crowd, that has politicized the vaccine, the ones who will believe FB posts over their own doctors, the ones who will refuse simply because they can, those so caught up in their supposed rights that they can’t even think about the well-being of their own families, those are the people who make me angry and I haven’t even gotten to the “tracking chip” crowd. Though I do have a measure of pity for them. They are not well. 

I am a retired nurse, I initially was going to wait to be vaccinated until the vaccines had a longer track record. But while I was waiting, I read about the technology, the vaccines themselves, I talked to my physician and the situation with Covid changed. Having seen many medicines that had years of testing and get full approval only to later be pulled from the market, knowing that individual responses vary, that no vaccine gives 100% protection, I decided that it was better for both my individual health and for my community’s health to be vaccinated. So I was vaccinated as soon as the vaccine became available to me. 

Sooner or later there will be a variant more deadly that delta, and some of us at least will know we followed the science and tried to do our part.

ADDENDUM: I’ll be seeing my physician later this week for my semi annual check up and discussing the booster shot.


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## ivyrain (Sep 23, 2011)

If 1 in 8 nurses don't follow the mandate and are fired, think of the horrible addition to the workload of vaccinated health care workers!

Some nurses are very afraid of the long term effects that may occur.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/1-in-8-nurses-say-they-havent-been-vaccinated-and-dont-plan-to/ar-AANXcM7?ocid=uxbndlbing


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## Beachgirl1000 (Sep 29, 2015)

JennyG12 said:


> So the frail and elderly do have an excuse to not get the shot, but they are also damned by the public because they didn't!
> 
> I agree that some hospitals do come forward to the media and state their numbers for the day (week), but it is not the full picture all over the USA. There are also those areas that the media hype is not the case in their areas. Many even state that it is the vaccinated that are filling up their ICU's. So can not blame them either for not getting the shot(s) because they had, and they still getting verbally chastised and threatened. All people are hearing is that the amount of people in the hospital/ICU's and rumors start flying.


I guess I didn't make myself clear.

The frail and elderly should get vaccinated. 
The vaccinated people in the hospital who have breakthrough Covid infections are mostly the frail and elderly, along with people who have preexisting conditions. 
Even with the vaccine, their bodies may not make enough antibodies to fight the Covid virus. But some older and sick people don't get Covid after getting the vaccine. 
Most of the people in hospitals, who are the very sickest, on ventilators and oxygen, are the unvaccinated.


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## plumhurricane (Dec 9, 2012)

I am also a retired nurse with 3 other close family members who are in nursing. The stress on them is unbelievable, so many aspects of the situation are out of their control. All health care workers have my support. The general public has no idea of the stress they are under


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## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

crochetknit Deb said:


> I have at lease two in laws who refuse
> the vaccine. They do not see it as
> necessary. They don't know what's
> in it, plus they believe it causes
> ...


Stupidity is an excuse - NOT a reason. Willful stupidity is unconscionable!


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## Morningstar2 (Mar 27, 2019)

CorvallisKnitter said:


> Here's something to think about - many hospitals are overwhelmed by Covid patients - especially hospitals in areas with low vaccination rates. That means those hospitals are being stretched way beyond normal limits with doctors & nurses unable to give individual patients the attention they need, hence greater possibility of death. Also, there are hospitals that are doing what is called "crisis standards of care" which means those hospitals will ration care to those with a greater chance of survival.
> 
> My wish is that everyone get the vaccine. If everyone did then there would be far less patients in hospitals as it would only be breakthrough cases. Also, wearing a mask means less spread to those who are vulnerable, thus less breakthrough cases. The hospitals would then be able to give care such that most, if not all Covid patients would survive.
> 
> It's the simple logic of taking a shot that could save not just yourself, but your neighbors as well and the hospital staff would be able to return to a normal care situation.


Well said! Thank you.


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## PatK27 (Oct 13, 2016)

JennyG12 said:


> You all are only going with certain areas that are being reported about.
> 
> There are alot more vaccinated folks getting it again and hospitalized yet again. So don't point and wag those fingers at all of the unvaccinated, for whatever reason they don't; and continue to harrass/blame/belittle/name call, etc. You all do not know the whole truth. Not your fault, as the media wants to help the vaccination push.


Those who refuse vaccination are endangering the lives of others when they go out and mix with other people. That's a fact.
Those who refuse vaccination only care about what they want to do or not do. No one else matters to them. So if you don't want to get vaccinated stay inside your home. Have your food delivered. Do not go to work. You can tell me until the end of the world " My body, My choice". Not when it affects other people! Well it just may happen that if you get COVID and get really sick someone might tell you " You chose to not get vaccinated. I choose not to treat you. I have my hands full with those who did the right thing,
those who were unable to because they were too young or unable to be vaccinated due to a true medical problem. I'm really tired 
of those people with mindset that it's all about them.


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## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

My feeling is that beds should be kept open for legitimate urgent care patients and that those who are brought in unvaccinated with Covid-19 should be the ones to be rerouted or even sent home.

Their bodies, their choice, their funeral.

Considering the number of medical people who have given their lives to save those I'll with Covid-19, I do not apologize.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

The AHA, American Hospital Association, the largest hospital industry group, are endorsing the vaccinations, here I will just add the link to the article, you can go from there to the AHA site. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/hospital-maternity-ward-on-pause-after-unvaxxed-staff-resigns/ar-AAOoA81?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&fbclid=IwAR2AsGkbumVveasOkmoswEynFk8Yxjz8M4htH73EcXSos1U8MHYdGF6u_y8 Note the group that sued, in Texas, lost...the Federal Court, said it does not break any federal laws. Those planning on using the Religious freedom, need to know, you can and probably will be interviewed, one of the questions, possibly can be, have you ever had vaccinations, if the answer is yes..you can be denied. Also note, most nurses if not all, are required to have certain vaccinations before they are employed or go to school to be nurses. so, there is not a lot of wiggle room on that religious exemption.


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## jeanpf (Apr 26, 2014)

I find it strange that there is an assumption that those that have chosen not to be vaccinated have done so without making an informed decision. 
I was diagnosed in 2002 as having Multiple Chemical Sensitivities (MCS). Because of this I am used to getting the facts on ingredients in products, to find if I can use them. It was a difficult task to find the ingredients of the vaccines.
Since 1998, my husband has had 4 strokes, and is susceptible to blood clots, has a fibrillating heart, high blood pressure, rheumatoid arthritis and osteoarthritis, lost his sight in one eye due to RVO, and glaucoma in the other. So he is taking many medications. After he looked at the side affects and potential repercussions, he opted not to have the vaccine.
We are in our 70’s, and we did not make our decision lightly.
Everybody’s situation is different, and it is important to get all of the facts, so as to make an informed decision.


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## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

jeanpf said:


> I find it strange that there is an assumption that those that have chosen not to be vaccinated have done so without making an informed decision.
> I was diagnosed in 2002 as having Multiple Chemical Sensitivities (MCS). Because of this I am used to getting the facts on ingredients in products, to find if I can use them. It was a difficult task to find the ingredients of the vaccines.
> Since 1998, my husband has had 4 strokes, and is susceptible to blood clots, has a fibrillating heart, high blood pressure, rheumatoid arthritis and osteoarthritis, lost his sight in one eye due to RVO, and glaucoma in the other. So he is taking many medications. After he looked at the side affects and potential repercussions, he opted not to have the vaccine.
> We are in our 70's, and we did not make our decision lightly.
> Everybody's situation is different, and it is important to get all of the facts, so as to make an informed decision.


An informed decision does not come about from listening to Fox Entertainment or the governor of any state, or from any anti vax source.

An informed decision comes from one's physician taking into consideration a patient's medical history and condition.

No one is being hard on informed decisions. However, those in the first category are culpable and responsible - or irresponsible. As the case may be.

If you are honest, it shouldn't bother you.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

jeanpf said:


> I find it strange that there is an assumption that those that have chosen not to be vaccinated have done so without making an informed decision.
> I was diagnosed in 2002 as having Multiple Chemical Sensitivities (MCS). Because of this I am used to getting the facts on ingredients in products, to find if I can use them. It was a difficult task to find the ingredients of the vaccines.
> Since 1998, my husband has had 4 strokes, and is susceptible to blood clots, has a fibrillating heart, high blood pressure, rheumatoid arthritis and osteoarthritis, lost his sight in one eye due to RVO, and glaucoma in the other. So he is taking many medications. After he looked at the side affects and potential repercussions, he opted not to have the vaccine.
> We are in our 70's, and we did not make our decision lightly.
> Everybody's situation is different, and it is important to get all of the facts, so as to make an informed decision.


There are lots of reasons people can not get the vaccine, and I would not want them to. Medical exemptions are taken into consideration, you would get a pass anyway if you were still in the working group. No one should endanger themselves. Ever! Under no circumstances would I expect you to get the vaccine. You made a wise choice. Just protect yourselves as much as you can, you are in the endangered group of not surviving if you get Covid. Just please be careful. Based on the information you found, you made a choice, but it in no ways means you have ALL the information, it is best to talk to your doctor and include him in that decision. He is aware of your medical history.


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## KateLyn11 (Jul 19, 2014)

jeanpf said:


> I find it strange that there is an assumption that those that have chosen not to be vaccinated have done so without making an informed decision.
> I was diagnosed in 2002 as having Multiple Chemical Sensitivities (MCS). Because of this I am used to getting the facts on ingredients in products, to find if I can use them. It was a difficult task to find the ingredients of the vaccines.
> Since 1998, my husband has had 4 strokes, and is susceptible to blood clots, has a fibrillating heart, high blood pressure, rheumatoid arthritis and osteoarthritis, lost his sight in one eye due to RVO, and glaucoma in the other. So he is taking many medications. After he looked at the side affects and potential repercussions, he opted not to have the vaccine.
> We are in our 70's, and we did not make our decision lightly.
> Everybody's situation is different, and it is important to get all of the facts, so as to make an informed decision.


You made a well researched informed decision, the only thing you might add is a conversation with your doctor. It is not you, or people like you I have issue with it is the person who loudly and publicly rants about tracking chips, it is the older man who confronts a very young teenager about why she is wearing a mask, it is those that attack people on line for being "sheeple" when they get their information from Fox News or similar outlets rather than medical professionals.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

I am sorry, I don't understand, why are they walking out please . I am confused, is it because they have mandated vaccs. I can't imagine going to the hospital and be treated by a non vacced nurse ot DR , is it not required for working there


Tigerwiggy said:


> I am a fully vaccinated healthcare worker. I work for a large healthcare system that has mandated vaccination, as have many other HC systems in my state, and likely across the US. A walkout is scheduled for today (according to the rumor mill). We were short-staffed before COVID, and burnout has caused many others to leave. I don't plan to leave. HC as you know it is about to change. There will be long waits. There is currently about a 3-day wait to get a bed, and probably a 24-hr wait to be seen in the ER. The ICU beds are full. They are bringing in staff from around the US so you may get someone who is new, whose personality is different, etc. We may be deployed to cover areas that are short-staffed and foreign to us. There is no "normal" for us now. I have heard many other states are also planning walkouts. Please be patient with HC workers you encounter and pray for us. Our mental health is already fragile.


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## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

JennyG12 said:


> So the frail and elderly do have an excuse to not get the shot, but they are also damned by the public because they didn't!
> 
> I agree that some hospitals do come forward to the media and state their numbers for the day (week), but it is not the full picture all over the USA. There are also those areas that the media hype is not the case in their areas. Many even state that it is the vaccinated that are filling up their ICU's. So can not blame them either for not getting the shot(s) because they had, and they still getting verbally chastised and threatened. All people are hearing is that the amount of people in the hospital/ICU's and rumors start flying.


Where are the vaccinated filling up the ICU's? That is against all information I have heard. This is an unvaccinated pandemic. Please give us your source of facts.


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## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

Evie RM said:


> There may be very valid reasons for some to not get vaccinated.


There could be a doctor's recommended valid reason for not getting the vaccine. I have no problem with that. Unfortunately, that would be a rare occurrence and those people should certainly be fully masked and limiting their exposure to other people. The interviews I have heard from nurses not getting the vaccine are not based on scientific fact, but rather a repeat of uninformed, unscientific rhetoric.


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## MissV2 (Jan 3, 2013)

You got it, blessed one! Amen. "Do no harm" should be an oath of ALL US citizens to take --- as well as "illegal" noncitizens. We re ALL God's creatures. Prayers for your strength is on it's way! :sm24: :sm17:


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## cathy73 (Apr 8, 2013)

My husband went in for a heart cath. They wanted to check if they needed to put in a stent. They came out and told me it was much worse than anticipated and he needed to be transfered to a hospital in Cleveland for immediate surgery , too dangerous to send him home. Been waiting 24 hours for a bed to open up at the cardiac center. I can see how overworked and exhausted the nursing staff is, but they are still giving wonderful care. Praying there won't be a walkout. Could be tragic.


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## Eichhornchen (Sep 16, 2017)

Buffalo, NY Nurses will go on strike!


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## Beachgirl1000 (Sep 29, 2015)

Eichhornchen said:


> Buffalo, NY Nurses will go on strike!


It's not all of them, it's nurses at at a few Catholic hospitals.

"Catholic Health union representing nurses authorizes strike with vote | wgrz.com" https://www.wgrz.com/amp/article/news/local/catholic-health-union-representing-nurses-votes-authorizes-strike/71-a35c2660-abf6-47d4-bfdb-3e7feb28c806


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## JennyG12 (Jan 24, 2016)

Beachgirl1000 said:


> It's not all of them, it's nurses at at a few Catholic hospitals.
> 
> "Catholic Health union representing nurses authorizes strike with vote | wgrz.com" https://www.wgrz.com/amp/article/news/local/catholic-health-union-representing-nurses-votes-authorizes-strike/71-a35c2660-abf6-47d4-bfdb-3e7feb28c806


Yes, at Catholic Health's Mercy Hospital in Buffalo, NY
https://www.wnylabortoday.com/news/2021/09/10/buffalo-and-western-new-york-labor-news/we-are-committed-to-doing-whatever-it-takes-to-stand-up-for-our-patients-and-our-families-cwa-represented-catholic-health-hospital-workers-vote-to-authorize-strike-at-catholic-health-in-buffalo-as-critical-understaffing-reaches-crisis-point/

Communications Workers of America (CWA)-represented Nurses, Technologists, Clerical Staff and other Service Workers employed in the Nursing, Cleaning and Dietary Departments at Catholic Health's Mercy Hospital of Buffalo voted overwhelmingly late Thursday (September 9th) to authorize a Strike - should it be necessary.

The CWA Workers voted to Strike with 97% support and could walk out as early as October 1st when their contract is set to expire.

However, no Strike date has been set as of yet.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It isn't just about the shortage of staff:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/buffalo/news/2021/09/10/cwa-votes-to-authorize-possible-frontline-worker-strike--catholic-health-responds---
"We're hoping to get a fair wage and we're hoping to not have our health care taken," said Ettipio. "They want to give us high deductible. They're offering us 1%, and we really cannot live on that.
~~
Catholic Health released a statement following the vote:

"We are disappointed CWA Local 1133 is threatening to strike at Mercy Hospital. It is unconscionable the union would take registered nurses and other crucial healthcare workers away from patients' bedsides and out of our hospital to walk the picket line while COVID-19 cases continue to rise in our community. Mercy Hospital will remain open and operational if CWA Local 1133 decides to lead associates on strike. A multi-disciplinary team at Mercy Hospital has developed a comprehensive strike contingency plan that includes hiring fully licensed, highly experienced, vaccinated, temporary replacement nurses and other qualified staff who will provide uninterrupted care to our patients. Many Mercy Hospital associates have been quietly expressing dissatisfaction with their union's actions and rhetoric against their hospital. They are feeling pressured by CWA leaders and fear union retaliation for challenging its handling of negotiations and threat to strike. Others have shared frustration with CWA that the strike pay it may provide during a strike is only a fraction of the money they would earn caring for patients and performing their jobs. Mercy Hospital remains committed to bargaining in good faith with our associates' union to settle these contracts without further delay or disruption as we did recently with the SEIU for other contacts at St. Joseph Campus and two of our long-term care facilities. With nearly three weeks until the contracts expire on September 30, we believe there is sufficient time to reach fair, market-competitive contracts that will allow us to continue providing safe, high-quality care and service to our patients and competitive wages and benefits to recruit and retain the best associates at Mercy Hospital."


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## Beachgirl1000 (Sep 29, 2015)

JennyG12 said:


> Yes, at Catholic Health's Mercy Hospital in Buffalo, NY
> https://www.wnylabortoday.com/news/2021/09/10/buffalo-and-western-new-york-labor-news/we-are-committed-to-doing-whatever-it-takes-to-stand-up-for-our-patients-and-our-families-cwa-represented-catholic-health-hospital-workers-vote-to-authorize-strike-at-catholic-health-in-buffalo-as-critical-understaffing-reaches-crisis-point/
> 
> Communications Workers of America (CWA)-represented Nurses, Technologists, Clerical Staff and other Service Workers employed in the Nursing, Cleaning and Dietary Departments at Catholic Health's Mercy Hospital of Buffalo voted overwhelmingly late Thursday (September 9th) to authorize a Strike - should it be necessary.
> ...


The article I posted stated that it was three hospitals.

"The nurses are trying to get a new contract and have nine bargaining days left. The biggest issue for them is safe staffing, but they're also fighting for wages. They say right now they can't properly care for their patients because they don't have enough people to do their jobs.

Nurses from three hospitals -- South Buffalo Mercy, Kenmore Mercy, and Sisters of Charity Hospital on the St. Joseph Campus -- authorized the strike, but there's an agreement saying they can only strike at South Buffalo Mercy, representing about 2,000 nurses."


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## a.ledge (Jun 28, 2018)

I have read that some HC workers are walking out because they refuse to be vaccinated. I would not want a healthcare worker who is not vaccinated to take care of me.


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## cordfancier (Sep 7, 2019)

JennyG12 said:


> So the frail and elderly do have an excuse to not get the shot, but they are also damned by the public because they didn't!
> 
> I agree that some hospitals do come forward to the media and state their numbers for the day (week), but it is not the full picture all over the USA. There are also those areas that the media hype is not the case in their areas. Many even state that it is the vaccinated that are filling up their ICU's. So can not blame them either for not getting the shot(s) because they had, and they still getting verbally chastised and threatened. All people are hearing is that the amount of people in the hospital/ICU's and rumors start flying.


Sorry, we live in a blue state with a high vaccination rate. Yet our hospitals are overwhelmed by unvaccinated covid patients they are taking in from less vaccinated states because they are at 0 beds. Alabama is at a negative number of ICU beds. The only way you can get an ICU bed there is if you need a ventilator.

And yes, they do post the numbers of unvaccinated vs vaccinated. As of right now, country wide, over 90% of those hospitalized with serious covid are unvaccinated. There are some vaccinated hospitalized but most just need some supplemental support and are not overwhelming the ICUs.

Even our renowned Children's Hospital has suspended all non-life threatening surgeries due to a lack of beds. Children are getting covid and need to be hospitalized. I have a coworker whose disabled child is in pain and needs surgery. It has been canceled 3 times now due to no beds.

And now we have the Mu variant waiting in the wings. This thing is being allowed to mutate and it is the unvaccinated who are being the willing hosts to allow it to mutate.

There is a crisis of compassion right now. Those of us who are vaccinated want OUR freedom back. We want the freedom to return back to normal. The unvaccinated, screaming about their freedoms, are the ones holding everyone back. No one has compassion for them anymore, unless they are medically unable to receive the vaccine, which is very, very, very few people. Pfizer is even approved for those with very severe allergies.

Get vaccinated.


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## joycevv (Oct 13, 2011)

Good for you not participating in a protest against vaccine mandates for health care workers. It’s pure insanity amongst these antivaxxers, and no one who promotes their lies should be in health care.


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## Bohemian (Jan 5, 2015)

thank you so much for getting vaccinated. I don't understand others that won't. Healthcare workers are angels. You are very much appreciated. Hang in there.


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## Ellie RD (Aug 20, 2011)

When I worked in healthcare, annual flu vaccines were mandated! I don't recall anyone questioning the rule and no one walked out. Politics has changed HC and definitely not for the better!


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## feltit (Sep 27, 2012)

Heath are workers put their lives and those of their families in danger everyday working with COVID-19 patients. Are you willing to do so? They’re burnt out from working so many hours at a time. The sad thing is this could all be prevented if people would get a vaccine. The beds are once again filling up with non vaccinated patients to the degree that other hospital patients can’t get a bed for births, cancer, surgery etc. Wake up and until you’ve been in their shoes don’t judge.


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## amuletmaker (Jan 21, 2013)

My daughter is a nurse in a well known convelesant home. Over a 2 week period, she worked 123 hours because help is so hard to find. Yes she is burned out but......she enjoys her job. Yes, she is working the "red" wing, the covid wing. She has over 25 years in the health care system. She and her hubby both had covid, have had their shots, he retired, she has a few more years to work. 2 of my grandsons are vacinated health care workers. I got my vacination as early as i could because i wanted to be able to be with my family.


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

I am so thankful to all of you healthcare workers. I don't know what would happen to us without you. Thank you for keeping yourself and your patients safe. In some communities, such as my own, colleges and universities are sending out mental health workers to help healthcare workers. You are living under such enormous stresses and strains, and you need all the help you can get. Thank you immensely for caring so much about the rest of us.

Hazel


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

cordfancier said:


> Sorry, we live in a blue state with a high vaccination rate. Yet our hospitals are overwhelmed by unvaccinated covid patients they are taking in from less vaccinated states because they are at 0 beds. Alabama is at a negative number of ICU beds. The only way you can get an ICU bed there is if you need a ventilator.
> 
> And yes, they do post the numbers of unvaccinated vs vaccinated. As of right now, country wide, over 90% of those hospitalized with serious covid are unvaccinated. There are some vaccinated hospitalized but most just need some supplemental support and are not overwhelming the ICUs.
> 
> ...


 Well said!!! Thanks for posting.


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Ellie RD said:


> When I worked in healthcare, annual flu vaccines were mandated! I don't recall anyone questioning the rule and no one walked out. Politics has changed HC and definitely not for the better!


I simply cannot understand why a nationwide (worldwide) pandemic, a terrible and major public health threat, is considered political. It isn't. It threatens lives, no matter which political party, if any, you belong to. If you are unvaccinated, if you refuse to wear a mask, you are not only endangering yourself. You are also endangering your family, your friends, and total strangers. Here in Florida, 9 out of 10 persons in ICUs are unvaccinated. Our hospitals are begging for more medical personnel to come to help. Our hospitals are begging for more mortuary space as the unvaccinated die.

This has absolutely nothing to do with "personal freedom." It is a health crisis for everyone.

And as to "personal freedom": One's "personal freedom" ends at the end of one's nose. Then someone else's "personal freedom" is involved. Droplets landing on someone else are an unwanted touching. In tort law, that is assault and hence actionable.

Why anyone would want to put himself/herself and all others in danger of suffering and death is completely beyond my comprehension. And the unvaccinated: Are they attempting to rip polio, smallpox, etc. vaccinations out of their arms nowadays?

Hazel


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## riversong200 (Apr 20, 2014)

Health care workers are stretched to the limit. I can't imagine having had to work in a crisis situation for a year and a half. It amazes me that so many people have stayed. 

We were lucky in May that there was a lull in Covid cases. DH needed emergency surgery for what turned out to be stage 4 colon cancer. Not only was the surgery performed about 2 hours after he was admitted to the ER, but I was able to be with him for his entire week long stay in the hospital. The staff was amazing and his care was excellent. 

Fast forward to yesterday. He's been dizzy since Sunday. I called the home health care nurse for advice. "Try to get him to an urgent care or the ER" No way were we going to the ER since Covid cases are typically 300-400 a day in this county. I called Urgent care and there were 51 patients waiting. We were incredibly lucky when the clinic near the house had an opening. We took it and saw a doctor who told us the cancer has probably gone into DH's brain. (While we were waiting to be seen a fellow strode in demanding a mask -which only covered his mouth when he put it on. When asked if he were vaccinated he said 'No'. Did he want to get vaccinated? Again 'No'. )

I bless the staff of every health care group in this area every day. They are angels in a very thin disguise.


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Evie RM said:


> There may be very valid reasons for some to not get vaccinated.


Please list these reasons for us. Thank you.

Hazel


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

ivyrain said:


> If 1 in 8 nurses don't follow the mandate and are fired, think of the horrible addition to the workload of vaccinated health care workers!
> 
> Some nurses are very afraid of the long term effects that may occur.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/1-in-8-nurses-say-they-havent-been-vaccinated-and-dont-plan-to/ar-AANXcM7?ocid=uxbndlbing


If these nurses are afraid of the long-term effects, then they should simply quit and stay home and not endanger anyone else. Were they vaccinated as children for polio, smallpox, diphtheria, etc.? Did they object to those vaccinations? I think not.

Hazel


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

PatK27 said:


> Those who refuse vaccination are endangering the lives of others when they go out and mix with other people. That's a fact.
> Those who refuse vaccination only care about what they want to do or not do. No one else matters to them. So if you don't want to get vaccinated stay inside your home. Have your food delivered. Do not go to work. You can tell me until the end of the world " My body, My choice". Not when it affects other people! Well it just may happen that if you get COVID and get really sick someone might tell you " You chose to not get vaccinated. I choose not to treat you. I have my hands full with those who did the right thing,
> those who were unable to because they were too young or unable to be vaccinated due to a true medical problem. I'm really tired
> of those people with mindset that it's all about them.


It is amazing to me that those who refuse to get vaccinated and refuse to wear masks run to hospitals for help when they come down with COVID. Since they do not believe in science, since they get their news from rumors, why do they think that hospitals, bastions of science, can or should help them? Some people claim that God is their protection and they need nothing else. When they come down with COVID, then they need to go to their churches, synagogues, mosques, etc., lie down on pews there or in the aisles, and wait for God to cure them.

But when one refuses to get vaccinated or to wear a mask, which is utterly selfish, and then shows up at a hospital begging for help, it is even more selfish. At some point, hospitals will start turning these people away and say, "Hey, you didn't want to protect yourselves in the first place, so don't come to us now." And that would be fine with me.

Sorry, but selfishness is not a virtue. It is a death sentence, both for the person who is not vaccinated or masked and for everyone else who comes into contact with him or her.

This is not political. This is not about your "personal freedom." This is a worldwide pandemic. It kills. And if you don't get vaccinated and won't wear a mask, COVID doesn't care which political party, if any, you belong to.

The stupidity and selfishness are unbelievable. Who knew that we lived in such an utterly moronic country?

Hazel


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## JennyG12 (Jan 24, 2016)

Hazel Blumberg - McKee said:


> Please list these reasons for us. Thank you.
> 
> Hazel


There are indeed many legitimate reasons. Anyone who has been following all of these topics about Covid would have already read all of them by now. Giving a list is fruitless and will only crash and burn with nah-sayers of what we list or say.


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

JennyG12 said:


> There are indeed many legitimate reasons. Anyone who has been following all of these topics about Covid would have already read all of them by now. Giving a list is fruitless and will only crash and burn with nah-sayers of what we list or say.


Which simply means that you cannot quote any reliable source regarding legitimate reasons.

Yes, of course there are medical exemptions for persons with certain medical conditions.

Beyond that, I have no idea what you are talking about.

And yes, I do keep apprised of "topics about COVID." However, I do not get my news from Fox "News," Breitbart, QAnon, TikTok, Facebook "influencers." I read medical papers from research institutions such as the Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, Harvard University, etc.

Hazel


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## Grannie Sandy (Jan 13, 2014)

As a retired nurse, my heart aches for all the health care workers and prays for control of the virus. This is not the time to strike over the stupidity of the unvaccinated.


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## JennyG12 (Jan 24, 2016)

Hazel Blumberg - McKee said:


> Which simply means that you cannot quote any reliable source regarding legitimate reasons.
> 
> Yes, of course there are medical exemptions for persons with certain medical conditions.
> 
> ...


Well can't help you if you are not reading the appropriate pipe-lines of information.
Your reply is a prime example of crash and burn..............


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

JennyG12 said:


> Well can't help you if you are not reading the appropriate pipe-lines of information.


And what ARE the "appropriate pipelines of information"? Assuredly you can tell us what they are. The CDC? The FDA? Epidemiologists? Fox "News"? QAnon? Breitbart? The Proud Boys? Mr. Trump? Governor DeSantis of Florida? Governor Abbott of Texas?

You simply have no answer to my question.

You make a statement. I ask for clarification. You refuse to provide any. Therefore I can only assume that you have no sources. I have no further desire to attempt to communicate with you.

Thank you for your "help" and "information."

Hazel


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## JennyG12 (Jan 24, 2016)

Hazel Blumberg - McKee said:


> And what ARE the "appropriate pipelines of information"? Assuredly you can tell us what they are. The CDC? The FDA? Epidemiologists? Fox "News"? QAnon? Breitbart? The Proud Boys? Mr. Trump? Governor DeSantis of Florida? Governor Abbott of Texas?
> 
> You simply have no answer to my question.
> 
> ...


Crash and burn mentality and nay-saying ---- BYE BYE
I am not a part of any TRUMPISM mentality. I do have a brain.


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

JennyG12 said:


> Well can't help you if you are not reading the appropriate pipe-lines of information.


 Please post the names of these appropriate pipelines of information so we can follow up by reading them. Just a couple of sources would be enough for a starting point.


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## JennyG12 (Jan 24, 2016)

Prism99 said:


> Please post the names of these appropriate pipelines of information so we can follow up by reading them. Just a couple of sources would be enough for a starting point.


Look in your own back yard of professionals is one source.


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## Montana Gramma (Dec 19, 2012)

Over half of our new Covid cases are the variant and over half getting it are vaccinated. Both our neighbours contracted it in church, 25 were blessed with Covid within a few days. They had the JJ and P shots. We must just use common sense and enjoy outside activities, shop when it is not busy, wash your nose hairs,hands etc. often, drink hot beverages to wash away germs in the mouth and throat to good old stomach acid and leave name calling etc. aside, just makes the blood pressure go up and convinces no one when accosted with the "why don't you". I am not responsible for others actions, only my own, trying to make people comply is only a fight without a referee, imho. Of course it is heartrendering that those unvaccinated are sharing the disease but name calling doesn't justify the education and some truly do not trust anything the government is involved with, some have legitimate reasons I am sure. I tend to go with what works best for me and that is not have my family worry about me and me not worry about close contact without the best protection. Remember , everyone chooses to go out in public for more than just recreational reasons. We have no rural delivery here for prescriptions or groceries, daily functions are not all possible on the phone or internet, like tax troubles for one, many are out on face to face contact because they have to be and if they chose not to be vaccinated for reasons they deem sincere, they are likely worried about that contact too. Not are all stupid, lazy, etc.


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

JennyG12 said:


> Crash and burn mentality and nay-saying ---- BYE BYE


Huh? I have absolutely no idea what "crash and burn mentality" and "nay-saying" mean.

I do not think that you have any idea what they mean either.

You simply have no answers to my questions. Are you too ashamed to tell us what "your" "pipelines" of information are? Evidently.

As they say: Ignorance of the law is no excuse. And no defense.

Yes indeed, my dear: Bye-bye. Communication with someone who cannot back up one word that she says is impossible.

Love and kisses (but they're fully vaccinated and masked),

Hazel


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Prism99 said:


> Please post the names of these appropriate pipelines of information so we can follow up by reading them. Just a couple of sources would be enough for a starting point.


Thank you. The poster refuses to list any of her "pipelines of information." Most likely she has none to cite, other than her intuition, guesses, conspiracy theories, and the like.

Sigh.

Hazel


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

JennyG12 said:


> Look in your own back yard of professionals is one source.


Well, duh. Of course. And that's it for your "pipelines of information"?

Hazel


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## JennyG12 (Jan 24, 2016)

Montana Gramma said:


> Over half of our new Covid cases are the variant and over half getting it are vaccinated. Both our neighbours contracted it in church, 25 were blessed with Covid within a few days. They had the JJ and P shots. We must just use common sense and enjoy outside activities, shop when it is not busy, wash your nose hairs,hands etc. often, drink hot beverages to wash away germs in the mouth and throat to good old stomach acid and leave name calling etc. aside, just makes the blood pressure go up and convinces no one when accosted with the "why don't you". I am not responsible for others actions, only my own, trying to make people comply is only a fight without a referee, imho. Of course it is heartrendering that those unvaccinated are sharing the disease but name calling doesn't justify the education and some truly do not trust anything the government is involved with, some have legitimate reasons I am sure. I tend to go with what works best for me and that is not have my family worry about me and me not worry about close contact without the best protection. Remember , everyone chooses to go out in public for more than just recreational reasons. We have no rural delivery here for prescriptions or groceries, daily functions are not all possible on the phone or internet, like tax troubles for one, many are out on face to face contact because they have to be and if they chose not to be vaccinated for reasons they deem sincere, they are likely worried about that contact too. Not are all stupid, lazy, etc.


:sm24:

Just this morning I was tempted to go out to find something, then I remembered what online store has what I am looking for. So my memory saved me the worry of being around the unmasked and really not knowing if they were vaccinated or not. I am a happy camper staying away from any 'crowd'. I do my grocery shopping within 10 minutes of the store opening. I fill up my car in between 'rushes' time. and the list goes on how I protect myself. Yes, I still wear a mask where ever I go, even to the doctors, will remove it when Doc says I can.


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## JennyG12 (Jan 24, 2016)

Hazel Blumberg - McKee said:


> Thank you. The poster refuses to list any of her "pipelines of information." Most likely she has none to cite, other than her intuition, guesses, conspiracy theories, and the like.
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> Hazel


Go ahead and slam those you do not even know ---- I have an actual brain that is functioning very well. 
I am not any type of "TRUMPETTE".
BYE BYE -- go start your rumors and lies now.................................

~~~~~~~~~~


JennyG12 said:


> There are indeed many legitimate reasons. Anyone who has been following all of these topics about Covid would have already read all of them by now. Giving a list is fruitless and will only crash and burn with nah-sayers of what we list or say.


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## JennyG12 (Jan 24, 2016)

Hazel Blumberg - McKee said:


> Well, duh. Of course. And that's it for your "pipelines of information"?
> 
> Hazel


One last word to you --- MY BACK YARD IS NOT THE SAME INFORMATION YOU HAVE IN YOUR BACK YARD OF PROFESSIONALS. DUH!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~


JennyG12 said:


> There are indeed many legitimate reasons. Anyone who has been following all of these topics about Covid would have already read all of them by now. Giving a list is fruitless and will only crash and burn with nah-sayers of what we list or say.


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

JennyG12 said:


> Go ahead and slam those you do not even know ---- I have an actual brain that is functioning very well.
> I am not any type of "TRUMPETTE".
> BYE BYE -- go start your rumors and lies now.................................


I simply do not know what you are talking about.

I am not "slamming" you.

I have no idea whether you have "an actual brain that is functioning very well."

I do not know you. You do not know me.

I have no idea if you are any type of "Trumpette." I do not care if you are or are not. COVID, after all, has nothing to do with politics.

I am not spreading rumors and lies. I simply asked you for information, which you have refused to provide, for whatever unknown reason.

Have a great day and a wonderful life.

Hazel


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

JennyG12 said:


> One last word to you --- MY BACK YARD IS NOT THE SAME INFORMATION YOU HAVE IN YOUR BACK YARD OF PROFESSIONALS. DUH!


Again, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I have a backyard. You have a backyard. I live in one place. You live in another place. What your point is is completely beyond me.

Please do try to calm yourself. It really helps to be calm when attempting to write something comprehensible. And writing in all caps means that you are SHOUTING. I have no idea why you are shouting. Do calm yourself down before your blood pressure goes through the roof.

Stay healthy and happy. Have a nice day.

Hazel


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## laylajeanne (Sep 18, 2011)

National Institutes of Health (NIH)

Study finds breakthrough COVID-19 infections are half as likely to cause Long COVID syndrome. More on the NIH Director's blog.

https://directorsblog.nih.gov/.../breakthrough.../

Breakthrough Infections in Vaccinated People Less Likely to Cause 'Long COVID'


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## ngriff (Jan 25, 2014)

Good for you and thanks for sharing this info. I don't know about walkouts, but I know there is a problem with overload. A friend was in the hospital ER from Sunday for blood pressure problems and is still in the emergency room for observation as there are no beds available. She has now been diagnosed with pneumonia.


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## Beachgirl1000 (Sep 29, 2015)

No. Once again, it is the UNVACCINATED who are clogging up the healthcare system, as reported by ABC news:

Sep 14, 11:37 am

More than 90% of COVID-19 hospitalizations are among unvaccinated

Nearly all of those hospitalized with COVID-19 in the U.S. are unvaccinated, according to government officials and frontline health care workers.

CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said last week “well over 90% of people who are in the hospital are unvaccinated.”

“Those who were unvaccinated were about four-and-a-half times more likely to get COVID-19, are 10 times more likely to be hospitalized, and 11 times more likely to die,” she added.

Hospitals across the nation contacted by ABC News have echoed Walensky’s statement.

At Saint Alphonsus Regional Medical Center in Boise, Idaho, doctors said about every COVID-19 patient in their overflowing ICU was unvaccinated.

“We are overwhelmed,” the ICU director said. “We have so many patients with COVID who are unvaccinated.”

Tracking hospitalizations by vaccination status is tough because only about half the states report that information and many share it in different ways.

However, an analysis of that data found that breakthrough cases in general are uncommon among the fully vaccinated and “the vast majority of reported COVID-19 cases, hospitalizations and deaths in the U.S. are among those who are unvaccinated or not fully vaccinated,” according to a study released last month by The Kaiser Family Foundation, a nonprofit focused on national health issues.

-ABC News’ Arielle Mitropoulos, Sony Salzman and Brian Hartman


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## JennyG12 (Jan 24, 2016)

Hazel nice of you to change your posting in the one hour to make me look like the villian and you erased what you said to slam me with your guesses and lies on who I get info from. You were egging me on and you know it.
BYE BYE

See you now have me on your ignore list - GOOD! Right back at yah!


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

Hazel Blumberg - McKee said:


> Please list these reasons for us. Thank you.
> 
> Hazel


Besides health reasons, having a high volume of antibodies in the blood from having had COVID, having a terrific immune system and having RH negative blood that fights viruses including COVID are among other reasons.


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

JennyG12 said:


> Look in your own back yard of professionals is one source.


 Meaning you won't post even one of your sources? Are you afraid your sources might not be legitimate?


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

Evie RM said:


> Besides health reasons, having a high volume of antibodies in the blood from having had COVID, having a terrific immune system and having RH negative blood that fights viruses including COVID are among other reasons.


 I have rh-negative blood. This is the first time I have heard it might improve my immune system's ability to fight off viruses, and I don't understand how that would work. Do you have a source that I could check for more information?


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## JennyG12 (Jan 24, 2016)

Prism99 said:


> Meaning you won't post even one of your sources? Are you afraid your sources might not be legitimate?


Explaination for those who really what to press this issue and can not comprehend what 'my back yard professionals' mean. Geeshh..............
My Municipality/Township/City/County/Province/State does not have the same information as your professionals in your own areas.
How simple is that? No my professionals did not write any medical paper(s) of their findings, but it was in the news of their findings.

Anyone presses me again to give a list will be put on my ignore list. You are bullying people to answer. Open your own eyes and ears in your own local areas and learn from them rather than a demanded list and sources of said info from KP members!



JennyG12 said:


> There are indeed many legitimate reasons. Anyone who has been following all of these topics about Covid would have already read all of them by now. Giving a list is fruitless and will only crash and burn with nah-sayers of what we list or say.


.................
Hazel Blumberg - McKee wrote:
Which simply means that you cannot quote any reliable source regarding legitimate reasons.

Yes, of course there are medical exemptions for persons with certain medical conditions.

Beyond that, I have no idea what you are talking about.

And yes, I do keep apprised of "topics about COVID." However, I do not get my news from Fox "News," Breitbart, QAnon, TikTok, Facebook "influencers." I read medical papers from research institutions such as the Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, Harvard University, etc.

Hazel

JennyG12 wrote in response:
Well can't help you if you are not reading the appropriate pipe-lines of information.
Your reply is a prime example of crash and burn..............


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

JennyG12 said:


> Explaination for those who really what to press this issue and can not comprehend what 'my back yard professionals' mean. Geeshh..............
> My Municipality/Township/City/County/Province/State does not have the same information as your professionals in your own areas.
> How simple is that? No my professionals did not write a medical paper(s) of their findings, but it was in the news.
> 
> Anyone presses me again to give a list will be put on my ignore list. You are bullying people to answer. Open your own eyes and ears in your own local areas and learn from them rather than a demanded list and sources of said info from KP members!


 My problem is that I'm not hearing what you seem to be hearing even though I do follow local news along with state, national, and a little international news. I simply do not know how you are acquiring information that is so different than mine.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

Prism99 said:


> I have rh-negative blood. This is the first time I have heard it might improve my immune system's ability to fight off viruses, and I don't understand how that would work. Do you have a source that I could check for more information?


I absolutely have a source. Here is the link:

https://www.infectiousdiseaseadvisor.com/home/topics/covid19/o-negative-blood-had-lowest-probability-of-coronavirus-infection-abo-blood-types/

I am 78 and I have never had the flu even though I don't get flu shots. I have been extremely healthy my whole life. I used to laughingly tell people that the reason I am so healthy is because my negative blood fights everything. Maybe I wasn't so wrong. R negative blood fights viruses.

I tested positive for COVID-19 in February. I had no symptoms, not even a sniffle. I went to my doctor in April and had my blood tested for antibodies. The report came back that I have a "high volume" of antibodies in my blood. It is my understanding that only 15% of people in the United States have RH negative blood. I am A negative.


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## lovelandjanice (Aug 8, 2012)

People who have no health reason for not receiving the vaccine should not be allowed to take up our HC workers time nor hospital beds or resources when they become sick from COVID which they could have prevented. Don't want to take precautions don't come crying when you are sick.
Harsh but I am at the end of my patience with these people.
Mandatory vaccinations are not something new in this country, they have been proven to save lives so get over it people. It's time that we start thinking about others.


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## JennyG12 (Jan 24, 2016)

Prism99 said:


> My problem is that I'm not hearing what you seem to be hearing even though I do follow local news along with state, national, and a little international news. I simply do not know how you are acquiring information that is so different than mine.


So there it is -- just what I said! Your area is not the same as mine! Do I live in your state? NO --- No matter what I say.........
Bye Bye


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Evie RM said:


> Besides health reasons, having a high volume of antibodies in the blood from having had COVID, having a terrific immune system and having RH negative blood that fights viruses including COVID are among other reasons.


Newest studies show that antibodies after having contracted Covid decreased significantly after 8 months.


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## Marly (Dec 5, 2012)

PatK27 said:


> I don't believe the walkout is due to mandated vaccination for hospital staff. I believe it s due to staffing shortages and the inability to provide adequate care to the patients.
> Unvaccinated people are the ones causing this. They are the ones causing the shortage of hospital beds, the long waits in the ER,
> delayed/postponed surgeries.


I would have those unvaxxed people pay for their stay at the hospital.

Marly


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## Beachgirl1000 (Sep 29, 2015)

Evie RM said:


> I absolutely have a source. Here is the link:
> 
> https://www.infectiousdiseaseadvisor.com/home/topics/covid19/o-negative-blood-had-lowest-probability-of-coronavirus-infection-abo-blood-types/
> 
> ...


I do believe you. Some people are just blessed with a super immune system. My husband, although not Rh negative, is one of those people. I can't remember the last time he got a cold or the flu. He just never gets anything, and he's always been that way. Other people seem to get everything. Some people have multiple, life altering allergies, while others are allergy free. We're just not equal when it comes to disease.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Prism99 said:


> My problem is that I'm not hearing what you seem to be hearing even though I do follow local news along with state, national, and a little international news. I simply do not know how you are acquiring information that is so different than mine.


Me either! I follow local and national news.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

RookieRetiree said:


> Newest studies show that antibodies after having contracted Covid decreased significantly after 8 months.


Next month will be 8 months for me. I have to have a bone density test done on September 23rd with a follow up by my doctor in October. I will have my blood tested again when I see my doctor.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

JennyG12 said:


> .................
> Hazel Blumberg - McKee wrote:
> Which simply means that you cannot quote any reliable source regarding legitimate reasons.
> 
> ...


Which means that those of us in red states are getting the political anti-Vaccine gop party line. Yeh, TN, #1 in new Covid cases because of stupid willingly complicit backyard "experts" who are not providing proper public health care policies.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Evie RM said:


> Next month will be 8 months for me. I have to have a bone density test done on September 23rd with a follow up by my doctor in October. I will have my blood tested again when I see my doctor.


Good plan. Me, too. I plan on doing the booster either way.


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## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

JennyG12 said:


> Well can't help you if you are not reading the appropriate pipe-lines of information.
> Your reply is a prime example of crash and burn..............


Appropriate pipe-lines of information?

Hazel, I think this one just proved your point!


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## JennyG12 (Jan 24, 2016)

RookieRetiree said:


> Which means that those of us in red states are getting the political anti-Vaccine gop party line. Yeh, TN, #1 in new Covid cases because of stupid willingly complicit backyard "experts" who are not providing proper public health care policies.


keep it up -- just do not comprehend what 'back yard' means ---- ALERT --- your local area *professionals*!!!
Again - I am not associated with qnon or any of those ratical groups, including Trumpism mentality --- geeshh - I have repeated that and here I had to state it yet again! bye bye


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## JennyG12 (Jan 24, 2016)

spins2knit said:


> Appropriate pipe-lines of information?
> 
> Hazel, I think this one just proved your point!


Because I have already stated where my facts are coming from but it was never published in the AMA or any other medical journal! And people do not 'see' --- we all have to conform or else .....
Geeshhh----- Now the trolls are coming out with the slams. BYE BYE

All this because I tried to get others to broaden their own knowledge instead of hearsay and conspiracies.
It still holds true, my PROFESSIONAL MEDICAL FOLKS are not the same as yours!



JennyG12 said:


> There are indeed many legitimate reasons. Anyone who has been following all of these topics about Covid would have already read all of them by now. Giving a list is fruitless and will only crash and burn with nah-sayers of what we list or say.


----------



## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

JennyG12 said:


> Because I have already stated where my facts are coming from but it was never published in the AMA or any other medical jornal! And people do not 'see' --- we all have to conform or else .....
> Geeshhh----- Now the trolls are coming out with the slams. BYE BYE
> 
> All this because I tried to get others to broaden their own knowledge instead of hearsay and conspiracies.
> It still holds true, my PROFESSIONAL MEDICAL FOLKS are not the same as yours!


Thank all the gods and goddesses for that last statement!


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

I saw my doctor in August. We discussed the booster vaccine. He said that at 8 months the vaccine starts to drop of, and it is best to wait until that 8 month mark. He also said that antibodies drop at that point. Some research has shown, that those who have had Covid are ore likely to get it a second time, due to the weakened lungs, from the first bout. I tend to follow my doctors suggestions and information. I trust him 100%. He is in his 30's, intelligent and takes time to listen to all your concerns. He gives the newest information he has, and gives options on all meds. What side effects they may have and the pluses, then allows you to make an informed decision on which you would prefer. He also tells you which he thinks is the best medication for you, but still your choice to decide. I follow state guidelines, daily covid patients vaccinated, vs those unvaccinated, number on ventilators, and in ICU, again, both vaccinated and unvaccinated, those unvaccinated, in my area are rarely on ventilators. I follow the largest hospital as to number of cases, again, both vaccinated and unvaccinated etc. The total deaths caused by Covid. We have also all seen those dying while waiting in ED, or for a bed. Not related to Covid. Or I hope we have.


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## Montana Gramma (Dec 19, 2012)

fortunate1 said:


> I saw my doctor in August. We discussed the booster vaccine. He said that at 8 months the vaccine starts to drop of, and it is best to wait until that 8 month mark. He also said that antibodies drop at that point. Some research has shown, that those who have had Covid are ore likely to get it a second time, due to the weakened lungs, from the first bout. I tend to follow my doctors suggestions and information. I trust him 100%. He is in his 30's, intelligent and takes time to listen to all your concerns. He gives the newest information he has, and gives options on all meds. What side effects they may have and the pluses, then allows you to make an informed decision on which you would prefer. He also tells you which he thinks is the best medication for you, but still your choice to decide. I follow state guidelines, daily covid patients vaccinated, vs those unvaccinated, number on ventilators, and in ICU, again, both vaccinated and unvaccinated, those unvaccinated, in my area are rarely on ventilators. I follow the largest hospital as to number of cases, again, both vaccinated and unvaccinated etc. The total deaths caused by Covid. We have also all seen those dying while waiting in ED, or for a bed. Not related to Covid. Or I hope we have.


Those with unrelated to Covid health issues should be on high alert and take all precautions necessary, especially in densely populated areas, less rooms , more cases. Just the same goes for the flu, contagious pneumonia etc. , as we have in the past. We can pull together or we can bicker, and I certainly agree on the physians concerns and info. Sometimes the so called public knowledgeable are not really up on the data as the docs that get daily or weekly info from reliable sources, seeing what works with their patients and follow guidelines for the most results. There are those that don't fit that mold but then there always is, my body is an oddball for symptoms of any kind, mostly nonexistance as to others. So then the conversation has to be in detail. Docs that won't take the time are just filling a spot in the clinic, we are fortunate to have caring , nurturing docs in ours. Keep the immune system as happy and healthy as possible and events don't seem to careen out of control.


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## KnittingNut (Jan 19, 2011)

Thank you for sharing. I'm saddened that the covid issue has become so divisive and polarizing. I'm angry that during a time of a pandemic the powers that be have made an issue of the sick and dying political. Apparently, there is money to be made in a pandemic with fear and disinformation. I hate that people forget that the healthcare workers and stretched to their limits, are human beings, and in fear for their own safety and that of their families. This has gotten so out of control - the unvaccinated are sick and spreading the variants to children and vaccinated. If we don't get this under control, we may never see a time without this virus. I thank you for your service and commitment. My heartfelt gratitude for your strength.


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

JennyG12 said:


> Hazel nice of you to change your posting in the one hour to make me look like the villian and you erased what you said to slam me with your guesses and lies on who I get info from. You were egging me on and you know it.
> BYE BYE
> 
> See you now have me on your ignore list - GOOD! Right back at yah!


Again, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I did not change any of my postings. I did not erase any postings. It is impossible to erase postings. All you can do is edit them. And you can edit them only for a very short time.

If you do not believe me, then please contact Admin.

Hazel


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Evie RM said:


> Besides health reasons, having a high volume of antibodies in the blood from having had COVID, having a terrific immune system and having RH negative blood that fights viruses including COVID are among other reasons.


Thank you so much for answering my question, which I put to another poster. I really appreciate it. I only knew about the RH negative factor. Thanks for letting me know about the other two.

Hazel


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Prism99 said:


> My problem is that I'm not hearing what you seem to be hearing even though I do follow local news along with state, national, and a little international news. I simply do not know how you are acquiring information that is so different than mine.


I am having difficulty with that, as well. I try to keep up with local, national, and world news on COVID.

I live in the capital city of Florida. We have only two hospitals. The reports from both are dire.

A week ago Sunday, a reporter and a photographer who were completely covered in medical gear were allowed into the ICUs of one hospital. What they reported was so distressing and depressing. One woman who was intubated and dying allowed them to take her photograph and quote her. She said, and this is not a direct quote but a paraphrase, "If my photo will help just one person, then it's worth it." I wish this poor woman had gotten her vaccinations and had worn a mask.

The situation in my city and county is terrible. Both hospitals are begging for health care workers to come and help out. Both need more mortuary space. The COVID situation is terrible all over the state of Florida.

A friend in Germany wrote to ask if she, her husband, and their two kids should come to Florida on vacation. Much as I would love to see them, I told her that I did not think they should come here. They would be putting their lives in danger.

Hazel


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

RookieRetiree said:


> Good plan. Me, too. I plan on doing the booster either way.


October will be 8 months for me. I had both Pfizer vaccines. I plan on getting the booster as soon as it's available to me.

Hazel


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## Byrney (Nov 9, 2015)

spins2knit said:


> You have my empathy and as much support as I can give. I know many who are running low on reserves and who are showing up daily to tend those selfish, and thoughtless people? who refuse to do what is necessary to fight Covid.
> 
> Unless there is a ,,valid medical,, reason for not being vaccinated, there is NO reason not to be vaccinated. They are all excuses based on selfishness.


Hang on. I agree with you but weren't you chastising me yesterday for being judgemental about climate change issues? It would seem it's ok to be judgemental if it's a subject you're passionate about.


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

spins2knit said:


> Appropriate pipe-lines of information?
> 
> Hazel, I think this one just proved your point!


I simply do not understand what the poster is talking about. Her posts are a mystery to me. And now she has accused me of editing and deleting my posts to make her look bad. As I explained to her: You can only edit your posts for a very short time. (I've been offline for several hours now.) You cannot delete your posts. I have tried to do so in the past if I've accidentally posted something twice, but it's been impossible to delete the extraneous post. I suggested that the poster check with Admin if she doesn't believe me. And as for name-calling. . . .

Sigh.

Hazel


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

spins2knit said:


> Thank all the gods and goddesses for that last statement!


LOL! Good one! Thanks for injecting humor into this discussion.

Hazel


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

I find all this chat about what to do with non vaxxers quite disturbing. I think they are wrong and they are being selfish and trying to to understand why they won't is difficult, Maybe they are just plain scared.I only know 1 person who won't get the shots and she is terrified she has a blood clot. I pity her frankly but I doubt that all the non vaxxers out there refuse for the same reason, some perhaps. If it is in fact just because they won't be dictated to, then I get very confused.Do they pay tax,do they obey the law,do they drive on the correct side of the road and stop at traffic lights. It all seems so wrong to me I have to admit.

I had my first shot in April. It was September before I got my second. I didn't refuse by the way health problems prevented me .I simply was not able to get out and there was a mix up with them coming to me. However no one was allowed in my home so I had no contact with anyone. It made me feel very bad by the way.

I have read things like they should be turned away from hospitals, made to pay,refused beds an treatment. I don't feel this is the answer, surely that would make us as bad as they are. I don't have an answer but I would like to hear from someone face to face for their reasons.

Centuries ago they would have been sent to a Lazurus Island sort of place, we are supposed to be more caring now.

Please don;t misunderstand me, I certainly believe everyone should be done, I just can't get it right in my head why they are refusing and yes I would like to see/hear some bonafide reasons why or a place to look. I have looked locally and seen a few placards at small meetings on the local news but got no reasons.

On a personal note, when I was not fully vaxed I refused anyone entrance to my home and stayed behinda closed door.It was for the same reason I wanted the shots. I could not bear the pain of being responsible for somone elses death. If I was a non vaxxer whatever my reasons were would grosslybe outweighed by that reason and I would go ahead and do it and to He** with any other reason. Surely saving someone elses life has to be the decider.


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

For the Love of Shetland said:


> On a personal note, when I was not fully vaxed I refused anyone entrance to my home and stayed behinda closed door.It was for the same reason I wanted the shots. I could not bear the pain of being responsible for somone elses death. If I was a non vaxxer whatever my reasons were would grosslybe outweighed by that reason and I would go ahead and do it and to He** with any other reason. Surely saving someone elses life has to be the decider.


Totally agree with you. Saving someone else's life indeed has to be the decider.

I realize I was rash in writing that those who aren't vaccinated shouldn't come to the hospital for help if they distrust science. And that those who believe God is their protection also shouldn't come to the hospital but should rather go to their place of worship. I just wish they'd get vaccinated.

We were always required to get certain vaccinations before we were allowed to go to school. Actually, I remember lining up in the school nurse's office to get vaccinations. I don't think that anyone ever said no. We would not have been allowed to go to school if we were not vaccinated.

I am truly mystified about why people refuse to get vaccinated or wear masks.

Hazel


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## The Reader (May 29, 2014)

Here is my comment to the situation. Feeling so sorry for the healthcare employees.


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## The Reader (May 29, 2014)

Tigerwiggy said:


> I am a fully vaccinated healthcare worker. I work for a large healthcare system that has mandated vaccination, as have many other HC systems in my state, and likely across the US. A walkout is scheduled for today (according to the rumor mill). We were short-staffed before COVID, and burnout has caused many others to leave. I don't plan to leave. HC as you know it is about to change. There will be long waits. There is currently about a 3-day wait to get a bed, and probably a 24-hr wait to be seen in the ER. The ICU beds are full. They are bringing in staff from around the US so you may get someone who is new, whose personality is different, etc. We may be deployed to cover areas that are short-staffed and foreign to us. There is no "normal" for us now. I have heard many other states are also planning walkouts. Please be patient with HC workers you encounter and pray for us. Our mental health is already fragile.


Tigerwiggy: where are you located, please?


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## Beachgirl1000 (Sep 29, 2015)

Byrney said:


> Hang on. I agree with you but weren't you chastising me yesterday for being judgemental about climate change issues? It would seem it's ok to be judgemental if it's a subject you're passionate about.


Please don't drag issues and personal resentments from a completely different topic into this one.


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## NonzNitZen (May 9, 2015)

God Bless you and your fellow HC workers. I commend any of them that participate in a walkout. Maybe it will open the eyes of those that are saying that this so-called vaccination is a good thing. Why is it that whenever you see fake Dr. Fau#$ and many other fake politicians in the news, they are wearing masks and then when there is a special gathering of them or a fund raiser dinner, etc, none of them are wearing masks and certainly not keeping 6 feet apart? Could it be that there really is a vaccination for this horrible virus and only the chosen few are getting it? Why are the major news media and social media saying that Ivermectin and hydroxychloraquin (sp) are bad when there have been many tests all around the world where it has been proven to be effective? Hmmmm..... sure makes one wonder!


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## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

Byrney said:


> Hang on. I agree with you but weren't you chastising me yesterday for being judgemental about climate change issues? It would seem it's ok to be judgemental if it's a subject you're passionate about.


Regarding clotheslines? Apples and oranges. If you prefer, I will recall my support.
I can agree with one and not the other. Sorry you can't see the difference!


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## Byrney (Nov 9, 2015)

Beachgirl1000 said:


> Please don't drag issues and personal resentments from a completely different topic into this one.


I'm not resentful. I was just shocked.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

But surely one would give the benefit of the doubt toward wearing a mask and getting a shot to prevent a death or illness . If it is right that some folks are having meetings and not sticking to the suggested rules can folks not rise above that. The numbers themselves tell a truthful story, if following the numbers suggests the shots prevent deaths then why not follow the numbers and possibly save a life.If one feel it is a political scam and one looks all round the world then one must also believe that every government in every country is in on it. That doesn't seem logical to me.

It would appear that from your post that you are antivax, forgive me if I am misjudging you, it is the "so called vaccination" phrase that suggests that to me. If you are, could you please explain that to me. I try very hard in my life to see both sides of a situation and in this case I have heard very little from the nay sayers and feel they too need a voice.



NonzNitZen said:


> God Bless you and your fellow HC workers. I commend any of them that participate in a walkout. Maybe it will open the eyes of those that are saying that this so-called vaccination is a good thing. Why is it that whenever you see fake Dr. Fau#$ and many other fake politicians in the news, they are wearing masks and then when there is a special gathering of them or a fund raiser dinner, etc, none of them are wearing masks and certainly not keeping 6 feet apart? Could it be that there really is a vaccination for this horrible virus and only the chosen few are getting it? Why are the major news media and social media saying that Ivermectin and hydroxychloraquin (sp) are bad when there have been many tests all around the world where it has been proven to be effective? Hmmmm..... sure makes one wonder!


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## Beachgirl1000 (Sep 29, 2015)

Byrney said:


> I'm not resentful. I was just shocked.


Oh, stop it. This isn't appropriate. Be shocked on your own time.


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

Evie RM said:


> I absolutely have a source. Here is the link:
> 
> https://www.infectiousdiseaseadvisor.com/home/topics/covid19/o-negative-blood-had-lowest-probability-of-coronavirus-infection-abo-blood-types/
> 
> ...


Thanks for the source. It appears to be a website specifically designed to keep infectious disease professionals up-to-date on current research. I wanted more information about this particular study, so I clicked on the footnote to get to the original study published in the Annals of Internal Medicine:
https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-4511

???????? ????????????????????????????????????????, ???????????????? ???? ???????????????????? ???????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???? ???????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ????????????????-????????????-???? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????? ????????????????????-???????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ????????????????????. ???????? ????????????????, ???? ???????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ????????????????-????????????-???? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???? ???????????????????? ???????????????? ????????????, ????????????????????????????, ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????? ????????− ????????????????????????. ???????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????-???????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ???????? ????????????????????????????????????????.

This study identifies a possible correlation between blood type and Covid. The degree of correlation appears to be somewhat weak, which is why the authors are careful to use "may be", and "perhaps" in their conclusion. If there is one thing I remember from taking in statistics in college, it is that correlation is not in the same ballpark as causation when it comes to research studies. This does not provide sufficient cause to not get vaccinated (especially since vaccination actually strengthens the immune system by teaching it to recognize and fight against an invader virus).

A metaphor might help explain my thinking. DH and I have been fortunate to own perhaps half a dozen houses between us (one at a time!) over the course of our lives. None of our houses ever had a fire or burned down. No houses in the neighborhoods we lived in for decades ever burned down. During all those years, we carried fire insurance on those houses. Why? When our risk for fire was so low? Because we were not willing to live with the results of a one-in-a-million chance of an unforeseen fire that had the capability of ruining us.

Vaccination is similar to fire insurance, except better -- because it actually lowers our risk of the adverse event happening at all. (Fire insurance wouldn't lower our risk of house fire, but vaccination lowers our risk of catching Covid.)

Hope this helps with understanding my point of view.


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## Beachgirl1000 (Sep 29, 2015)

Prism99 said:


> Thanks for the source. It appears to be a website specifically designed to keep infectious disease professionals up-to-date on current research. I wanted more information about this particular study, so I clicked on the footnote to get to the original study published in the Annals of Internal Medicine:
> https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-4511
> 
> ???????? ????????????????????????????????????????, ???????????????? ???? ???????????????????? ???????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???? ???????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ????????????????-????????????-???? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????? ????????????????????-???????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ????????????????????. ???????? ????????????????, ???? ???????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ????????????????-????????????-???? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???? ???????????????????? ???????????????? ????????????, ????????????????????????????, ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????? ????????− ????????????????????????. ???????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????-???????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ???????? ????????????????????????????????????????.
> ...


It does, and it was stated very clearly.


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

NonzNitZen said:


> God Bless you and your fellow HC workers. I commend any of them that participate in a walkout. Maybe it will open the eyes of those that are saying that this so-called vaccination is a good thing. Why is it that whenever you see fake Dr. Fau#$ and many other fake politicians in the news, they are wearing masks and then when there is a special gathering of them or a fund raiser dinner, etc, none of them are wearing masks and certainly not keeping 6 feet apart? Could it be that there really is a vaccination for this horrible virus and only the chosen few are getting it? Why are the major news media and social media saying that Ivermectin and hydroxychloraquin (sp) are bad when there have been many tests all around the world where it has been proven to be effective? Hmmmm..... sure makes one wonder!


I have not read, in major news media or in scientific studies from various research institutions (I normally check with the Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, and Harvard University, among others), that Ivermectin and hydroxy (I won't even try to spell it!) are effective in preventing or treating COVID. Ivermectin is an animal dewormer. I have read cases in which people have been poisoned by ingesting it. I am familiar with it from a veterinary clinic standpoint; I've administered it to large and small animals. It is dangerous to humans. Monoclonal antibody treatment is of help to those who have COVID; the brand name is Regeneron. Many Regeneron clinics have opened in my state, Florida. But I would not want to get COVID first and then have to take something to make it go away. I also would never ingest Ivermectin. Could you please point me toward studies that show that Ivermectin and hydroxy (again, I won't try to spell it) are effective in COVID treatment and/or prevention? Thanks.

Hazel


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

Prism99 said:


> Thanks for the source. It appears to be a website specifically designed to keep infectious disease professionals up-to-date on current research. I wanted more information about this particular study, so I clicked on the footnote to get to the original study published in the Annals of Internal Medicine:
> https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-4511
> 
> ???????? ????????????????????????????????????????, ???????????????? ???? ???????????????????? ???????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???? ???????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ????????????????-????????????-???? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????? ????????????????????-???????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ????????????????????. ???????? ????????????????, ???? ???????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ????????????????-????????????-???? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???? ???????????????????? ???????????????? ????????????, ????????????????????????????, ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????? ????????− ????????????????????????. ???????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????-???????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ???????? ????????????????????????????????????????.
> ...


It does and I respect your point of view. I want to add to the info I have already given you that my husband has Type O blood, but he is RH positive. He has a partial right lung due to cancer surgery in 2014 and he has COPD. He was a smoker for most of his life. He got COVID-19 the same time I did (we were exposed to the same source) and he had only mild symptoms. We could be added to the study in the link and it would back up what they are saying. I firmly believe my RH negative blood has fought viruses all of my life and is continuing to fight them, including COVID. I have a certificate with my high school diploma for "perfect attendance" all three years of high school. The late 50's was when the Asian flu was prevalent and a third of my school was absent because of that flu. Not me. I will have my blood checked, again, when I see my doctor in October. It will be interesting to see how many, if any, antibodies are still in my blood.

I do want to let you know that I wear a mask at the grocery store. That is the only place that I go shopping anymore. I order more on line than I ever did before COVID-19. I am pretty much of a home body and not around people except the ones that live here and they all had the virus the same time that I did.


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Evie RM said:


> It does and I respect your point of view. I want to add to the info I have already given you that my husband has Type O blood, but he is RH positive. He has a partial right lung due to cancer surgery in 2014 and he has COPD. He was a smoker for most of his life. He got COVID-9 the same time I did (we were exposed to the same source) and he had only mild symptoms. We could be added to the study in the link and it would back up what they are saying. I firmly believe my RH negative blood has fought viruses all of my life and is continuing to fight them, including COVID. I have a certificate with my high school diploma for "perfect attendance" all three years of high school. The late 50's was when the Asian flu was prevalent and a third of my school was absent because of that flu. Not me. I will have my blood checked, again, when I see my doctor in October. It will be interesting to see how many, if any, antibodies are still in my blood.
> 
> I do want to let you know that I wear a mask at the grocery store. That is the only place that I go shopping anymore. I am pretty much of a home body and not around people except the ones that live here and they all had the virus the same time that I did.


That is really wonderful about RH negative blood! I've read about it and COVID. Sadly, I don't have RH negative blood. But it certainly sounds like an enormous help in battling certain diseases.

Hazel


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

For the Love of Shetland said:


> But surely one would give the benefit of the doubt toward wearing a mask and getting a shot to prevent a death or illness . If it is right that some folks are having meetings and not sticking to the suggested rules can folks not rise above that. The numbers themselves tell a truthful story, if following the numbers suggests the shots prevent deaths then why not follow the numbers and possibly save a life.If one feel it is a political scam and one looks all round the world then one must also believe that every government in every country is in on it. That doesn't seem logical to me.


It is hard for me to believe that all nations of the world, and all have been affected by COVID, would band together to create a political scam. No two countries can seem to agree on anything. That every country on earth would band together to scam everyone seems to me to be as illogical as you feel it to be.

It would be lovely if every country on earth would band together to get rid of COVID. But that hasn't happened yet and sadly, probably never will happen.

Hazel


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

JennyG12 said:


> Look in your own back yard of professionals is one source.


Quit playing games--
give us names!
Also, please stay home!


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## Guz (Oct 25, 2018)

Prayers for you and the other healthcare workers. I am a retired RN and fully understand May God give you strength


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## knitkrit (Jan 30, 2013)

It is happening EVERYWHERE. As a retired healthcare worker--I totally understand how they feel. We work our butts off under normal circumstances. There is nothing normal about what is happening now. And to make matters worse--with the vaccine--most of the Covid cases could be prevented. But those that refuse or don't give a damn about getting the vaccines are making it hard for all of us to get thru this crisis. We are there to help people--not to save a life of someone that has caused their own harm. Day after day after day, they try their best to do their job, while putting their own life in danger from those that could not care. Put down your picket signs and go to the nearest vaccination site to get us out of all the suffering. If you still refuse a vaccination and or refuse to wear masks in public--you better hope and pray that you do not catch Covid. If you do--you have only your self to blame.


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## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

Montana Gramma said:


> Over half of our new Covid cases are the variant and over half getting it are vaccinated. Both our neighbours contracted it in church, 25 were blessed with Covid within a few days. They had the JJ and P shots. We must just use common sense and enjoy outside activities, shop when it is not busy, wash your nose hairs,hands etc. often, drink hot beverages to wash away germs in the mouth and throat to good old stomach acid and leave name calling etc. aside, just makes the blood pressure go up and convinces no one when accosted with the "why don't you". I am not responsible for others actions, only my own, trying to make people comply is only a fight without a referee, imho. Of course it is heartrendering that those unvaccinated are sharing the disease but name calling doesn't justify the education and some truly do not trust anything the government is involved with, some have legitimate reasons I am sure. I tend to go with what works best for me and that is not have my family worry about me and me not worry about close contact without the best protection. Remember , everyone chooses to go out in public for more than just recreational reasons. We have no rural delivery here for prescriptions or groceries, daily functions are not all possible on the phone or internet, like tax troubles for one, many are out on face to face contact because they have to be and if they chose not to be vaccinated for reasons they deem sincere, they are likely worried about that contact too. Not are all stupid, lazy, etc.


Here is some information about your county:

https://flatheadbeacon.com/2021/07/06/flathead-countys-unvaccinated-population-continues-to-feel-impact-of-covid-19/

Your information is incorrect about vaccinated cases of covid. The percent of people vaccinated in your county are dismal and as your county is stating it is an unvaccinated problem. Here is a quote:

"I think that we're going to continue to see this alignment of vaccine (effectiveness) to variant pretty high," Russell said. "I think it's just the unvaccinated population that we need to be concerned with, and it's the unvaccinated population that is ending up in the hospital."

More than 13,000 Flathead County residents have tested positive for COVID-19 since March 2020, including the 102 who have died. Statewide, COVID-19 has killed a confirmed 1,666 Montanans."

Poor excuses won't save people, the vaccine will.


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## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

Evie RM said:


> I absolutely have a source. Here is the link:
> 
> https://www.infectiousdiseaseadvisor.com/home/topics/covid19/o-negative-blood-had-lowest-probability-of-coronavirus-infection-abo-blood-types/
> 
> ...


Sorry to burst your bubble of immunity, but there is no conclusive nor substantial reason here not to be vaccinated. This is one study and hardly a breakthrough. I am type O blood and would not ever consider because I have a lower chance of getting covid, not to get the vaccine. The conclusion of this report does not say because you are R negative you should not get the vaccine nor that you won't get covid, as you already stated you have gotten it. You may have the ability to fight off the disease or you may not. Glad you have had good health so far and I hope your luck holds.


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## mary charnley (Nov 23, 2012)

You healthcare workers have been amazing, and I thank and pray for you all.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EDITED quote=JennyG12] All people are hearing is that the amount of people in the hospital/ICU's and rumors start flying.

This is a worldwide emergency. Please do your best to squelch rumors. Stand up to anyone spreading false information. Forget you heard the rumors, and, by all means NEVER spread them for any reason.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

quilter said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble of immunity, but there is no conclusive nor substantial reason here not to be vaccinated. This is one study and hardly a breakthrough. I am type O blood and would not ever consider because I have a lower chance of getting covid, not to get the vaccine. The conclusion of this report does not say because you are R negative you should not get the vaccine nor that you won't get covid, as you already stated you have gotten it. You may have the ability to fight off the disease or you may not. Glad you have had good health so far and I hope your luck holds.


I have faith that it will. I will follow up with the results after my next blood test.


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## JennyG12 (Jan 24, 2016)

crochetknit Deb said:


> Quit playing games--
> give us names!
> Also, please stay home!


Bully, troll. I already explained my comments and made it clear I DO stay home! and it is not because I refuse or didn't get the shot! BYE BYE


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

mary charnley said:


> You healthcare workers have been amazing, and I thank and pray for you all.


Me, too. Does anyone watch America's Got Talent? There is a nurse choir group singing songs that they wrote. The last one they sang brought tears to my eyes. What an exceptional bunch of people.


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## Beachgirl1000 (Sep 29, 2015)

quilter said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble of immunity, but there is no conclusive nor substantial reason here not to be vaccinated. This is one study and hardly a breakthrough. I am type O blood and would not ever consider because I have a lower chance of getting covid, not to get the vaccine. The conclusion of this report does not say because you are R negative you should not get the vaccine nor that you won't get covid, as you already stated you have gotten it. You may have the ability to fight off the disease or you may not. Glad you have had good health so far and I hope your luck holds.


I have type O, and I did get vaccinated. I'm happy if my blood type makes me less prone to getting Covid, but why take chances?


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

fortunate1 said:


> I saw my doctor in August. We discussed the booster vaccine. He said that at 8 months the vaccine starts to drop of, and it is best to wait until that 8 month mark. He also said that antibodies drop at that point. Some research has shown, that those who have had Covid are ore likely to get it a second time, due to the weakened lungs, from the first bout. I tend to follow my doctors suggestions and information. I trust him 100%. He is in his 30's, intelligent and takes time to listen to all your concerns. He gives the newest information he has, and gives options on all meds. What side effects they may have and the pluses, then allows you to make an informed decision on which you would prefer. He also tells you which he thinks is the best medication for you, but still your choice to decide. I follow state guidelines, daily covid patients vaccinated, vs those unvaccinated, number on ventilators, and in ICU, again, both vaccinated and unvaccinated, those unvaccinated, in my area are rarely on ventilators. I follow the largest hospital as to number of cases, again, both vaccinated and unvaccinated etc. The total deaths caused by Covid. We have also all seen those dying while waiting in ED, or for a bed. Not related to Covid. Or I hope we have.


I just found an error in this post, I said unvaccinated in my area on ventilators is rare, I meant, those vaccinated are rarely on ventilators..what a moron..


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Hazel Blumberg - McKee said:


> I have not read, in major news media or in scientific studies from various research institutions (I normally check with the Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, and Harvard University, among others), that Ivermectin and hydroxy (I won't even try to spell it!) are effective in preventing or treating COVID. Ivermectin is an animal dewormer. I have read cases in which people have been poisoned by ingesting it. I am familiar with it from a veterinary clinic standpoint; I've administered it to large and small animals. It is dangerous to humans. Monoclonal antibody treatment is of help to those who have COVID; the brand name is Regeneron. Many Regeneron clinics have opened in my state, Florida. But I would not want to get COVID first and then have to take something to make it go away. I also would never ingest Ivermectin. Could you please point me toward studies that show that Ivermectin and hydroxy (again, I won't try to spell it) are effective in COVID treatment and/or prevention? Thanks.
> 
> Hazel


They aren't! It is for horses! I just watched local news about people ingesting it and it is poison! If it kills worms in horses, why in the world would anyone ingest it?! Stupid is as Stupid does!


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## Beachgirl1000 (Sep 29, 2015)

fortunate1 said:


> I just found an error in this post, I said unvaccinated in my area on ventilators is rare, I meant, those vaccinated are rarely on ventilators..what a moron..


You are not a moron! 
I did find this article earlier from ABC news. Don't know if you saw it.

Sep 14, 11:37 am

More than 90% of COVID-19 hospitalizations are among unvaccinated

Nearly all of those hospitalized with COVID-19 in the U.S. are unvaccinated, according to government officials and frontline health care workers.

CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said last week "well over 90% of people who are in the hospital are unvaccinated."

"Those who were unvaccinated were about four-and-a-half times more likely to get COVID-19, are 10 times more likely to be hospitalized, and 11 times more likely to die," she added.

Hospitals across the nation contacted by ABC News have echoed Walensky's statement.

At Saint Alphonsus Regional Medical Center in Boise, Idaho, doctors said about every COVID-19 patient in their overflowing ICU was unvaccinated.

"We are overwhelmed," the ICU director said. "We have so many patients with COVID who are unvaccinated."

Tracking hospitalizations by vaccination status is tough because only about half the states report that information and many share it in different ways.

However, an analysis of that data found that breakthrough cases in general are uncommon among the fully vaccinated and "the vast majority of reported COVID-19 cases, hospitalizations and deaths in the U.S. are among those who are unvaccinated or not fully vaccinated," according to a study released last month by The Kaiser Family Foundation, a nonprofit focused on national health issues.

-ABC News' Arielle Mitropoulos, Sony Salzman and Brian Hartman


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Beachgirl1000 said:


> You are not a moron!
> I did find this article earlier from ABC news. Don't know if you saw it.
> 
> Sep 14, 11:37 am
> ...


I am lucky, we have the biggest medical center between San Francisco and Portland. They publish the numbers daily. Among them, is total ICU they give number of vaccinated and unvacced and then in percentages, over 90 % are unvaccinated. Of those on ventilators, 90% unvaccinated, total cases admitted today, 94% unvaccinated, they also give the total of those admitted in the past week, and again, how many vaccinate vs. unvacced. Then the total of deaths, today..and the past week. Still those idiots, don't want the vaccine, why...because it is their Constitutional right to not get it, because there is no 5-10 yr study, so no one knows what side effects could be. I have to walk away, after I say, I will worry about side effects when I get them, I am more concerned with protecting as many as I can, and not being a murderer. I can not fix stupid. Today, our middle school has over 100 students in quarantine. That is about 1/5 of all students. Why, 3 football players came down with it, after a game. The only ones that were possibly in contact with them all, that are not quarantine, those with the vaccine! The superintendent says going forth they will be using all requirements. Wow, imagine conforming..especially after all the rallies against the mask mandates for schools and health workers. People no longer care about their fellow humans, used to we all did whatever America asked of us...now if it does not profit us, or we have different mind set, we buck at the thought. Federal court in Texas, just nixed the suing by nurses about mandates, he found it did NOT violate any federal laws. I think this is going to be a big crap storm, be careful my friend, and try to dodge the crap as best you can. I am!


----------



## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Evie RM said:


> Me, too. Does anyone watch America's Got Talent? There is a nurse choir group singing songs that they wrote. The last one they sang brought tears to my eyes. What an exceptional bunch of people.


I do, and they are amazing!


----------



## Beachgirl1000 (Sep 29, 2015)

fortunate1 said:


> I am lucky, we have the biggest medical center between San Francisco and Portland. They publish the numbers daily. Among them, is total ICU they give number of vaccinated and unvacced and then in percentages, over 90 % are unvaccinated. Of those on ventilators, 90% unvaccinated, total cases admitted today, 94% unvaccinated, they also give the total of those admitted in the past week, and again, how many vaccinate vs. unvacced. Then the total of deaths, today..and the past week. Still those idiots, don't want the vaccine, why...because it is their Constitutional right to not get it, because there is no 5-10 yr study, so no one knows what side effects could be. I have to walk away, after I say, I will worry about side effects when I get them, I am more concerned with protecting as many as I can, and not being a murderer. I can not fix stupid. Today, our middle school has over 100 students in quarantine. That is about 1/5 of all students. Why, 3 football players came down with it, after a game. The only ones that were possibly in contact with them all, that are not quarantine, those with the vaccine! The superintendent says going forth they will be using all requirements. Wow, imagine conforming..especially after all the rallies against the mask mandates for schools and health workers. People no longer care about their fellow humans, used to we all did whatever America asked of us...now if it does not profit us, or we have different mind set, we buck at the thought. Federal court in Texas, just nixed the suing by nurses about mandates, he found it did NOT violate any federal laws. I think this is going to be a big crap storm, be careful my friend, and try to dodge the crap as best you can. I am!


I hear you! Yes, we're being careful. We certainly can't count on others' sense of responsibility toward their fellow humans. It's all, "Me, me, me, and my rights," with them.


----------



## janielha (Dec 20, 2012)

Blessings to you and everyone in the health care industry. You are appreciated more than you will ever know. We should all make it a priority to thank those who care for us and our loved ones.


----------



## ngaira (Dec 15, 2016)

Good reminder for these things we sometimes take for granted that they are just always there when we need them and forget they are human too and right now with the Virus working to the max


Tigerwiggy said:


> I am a fully vaccinated healthcare worker. I work for a large healthcare system that has mandated vaccination, as have many other HC systems in my state, and likely across the US. A walkout is scheduled for today (according to the rumor mill). We were short-staffed before COVID, and burnout has caused many others to leave. I don't plan to leave. HC as you know it is about to change. There will be long waits. There is currently about a 3-day wait to get a bed, and probably a 24-hr wait to be seen in the ER. The ICU beds are full. They are bringing in staff from around the US so you may get someone who is new, whose personality is different, etc. We may be deployed to cover areas that are short-staffed and foreign to us. There is no "normal" for us now. I have heard many other states are also planning walkouts. Please be patient with HC workers you encounter and pray for us. Our mental health is already fragile.


----------



## ngaira (Dec 15, 2016)

I would not feel comfortable if they were not wearing masks


dcgmom said:


> I have not heard about any walk outs in the US. Where are they?as far as I know traveling nurses are pretty common in the US. Quite a few nurses do it for the money. When I was in the hospital a year ago, I met quite a few traveling nurses. The care I received from them was as good, if not better than I received from the nurses working at the hospital full time.
> As for walking out which is because of Covid shots. I cannot support them in this. There is a vaccine available and they should get it. The last time I was in the hospital, I asked everyone I came in contact with if they had had the shots. They all said yes except one nurse who was breastfeeding. I would not be comfortable under the care of someone who was not vaccinated.


----------



## peppered (May 16, 2014)

Hazel Blumberg - McKee said:


> Please list these reasons for us. Thank you.
> 
> Hazel


My boyfriend is on monoclonal antibody treatment every 2 weeks. No covid shots for him on doctors recommendation.
Both of us had covid. I got very ill, he had mild case.
Both of us have natural immunity.
You can read up on it.


----------



## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

damemary said:


> EDITED quote=JennyG12] All people are hearing is that the amount of people in the hoIt's a big pain.spital/ICU's and rumors start flying.
> 
> This is a worldwide emergency. Please do your best to squelch rumors. Stand up to anyone spreading false information. Forget you heard the rumors, and, by all means NEVER spread them for any reason.


Sorry, I'm unable to
read the words written
in red. I have to press
"post reply" in order to
do so. It's a big pain.


----------



## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

Fox News is a very reliable source of news. The reason some people don't like it is because Fox News is the only news source in the media that does not relentlessly criticize Trump.

And regarding the vaccination:

Sure, it's good to get the vax. I have been vaccinated myself. But remember, folks, the minute you let the government start forcing you to do something is when you get one minute closer to losing MORE of your Constitutional rights. For example, we have already lost so much freedom of speech in this country it's unbelievable. You cannot admit to being a conservative without being thrown off Facebook or Twitter, or whatever. Christian businesses are being sued for standing up for their rights. So now, some people are starting to balk at losing other freedoms----such as their freedom to refuse to be vaccinated with an experimental drug.


----------



## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

It is available from feed stores and vets here but we had a newspaper article from our local vet who has pulled it as he has had several folks come in to buy it who don't have an animal so he refuses to sell it


Hazel Blumberg - McKee said:


> I have not read, in major news media or in scientific studies from various research institutions (I normally check with the Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, and Harvard University, among others), that Ivermectin and hydroxy (I won't even try to spell it!) are effective in preventing or treating COVID. Ivermectin is an animal dewormer. I have read cases in which people have been poisoned by ingesting it. I am familiar with it from a veterinary clinic standpoint; I've administered it to large and small animals. It is dangerous to humans. Monoclonal antibody treatment is of help to those who have COVID; the brand name is Regeneron. Many Regeneron clinics have opened in my state, Florida. But I would not want to get COVID first and then have to take something to make it go away. I also would never ingest Ivermectin. Could you please point me toward studies that show that Ivermectin and hydroxy (again, I won't try to spell it) are effective in COVID treatment and/or prevention? Thanks.
> 
> Hazel


----------



## KopyKat7 (Dec 18, 2016)

Ladyj960 said:


> We all should just be patient with everyone. We don't know what someone may be going through.


????


----------



## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

crochetknit Deb said:


> I have at lease two in laws who refuse
> the vaccine. They do not see it as
> necessary. They don't know what's
> in it, plus they believe it causes
> ...


That's about all anyone can do.


----------



## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

Susie2016 said:


> Fox News is a very reliable source of news. The reason some people don't like it is because Fox News is the only news source in the media that does not relentlessly criticize Trump.
> 
> And regarding the vaccination:
> 
> Sure, it's good to get the vax. I have been vaccinated myself. But remember, folks, the minute you let the government start forcing you to do something is when you get one minute closer to losing MORE of your Constitutional rights. For example, we have already lost so much freedom of speech in this country it's unbelievable. You cannot admit to being a conservative without being thrown off Facebook or Twitter, or whatever. Christian businesses are being sued for standing up for their rights. So now, some people are starting to balk at losing other freedoms----such as their freedom to refuse to be vaccinated with an experimental drug.


Here is some information about Fox News, an Entertainment Company:

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/fox-news-bias/

Believe them if you want, but they are not a respected news source. The fact that you admit you are a conservative does not throw you off of Facebook. What you say, because you are a conservative, may if it is incorrect information from sources such as Fox. What rights are Christians being sued about? They may think they have a right to do anything and that does not make it a right. Their "right" not to get vaccinated does not supersede the rights of others to be protected from a deadly virus.


----------



## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Marly said:


> I would have those unvaxxed people pay for their stay at the hospital.
> Marky


Don't ALL patients have to pay for their medical care?


----------



## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

spins2knit said:


> My feeling is that beds should be kept open for legitimate urgent care patients and that those who are brought in unvaccinated with Covid-19 should be the ones to be rerouted or even sent home.
> 
> *Their bodies, their choice, their funeral.*
> 
> Considering the number of medical people who have given their lives to save those I'll with Covid-19, I do not apologize.


That day may come, since the numbers only go up, and the health care professionals are burning out. Some quit. Some suicide.


----------



## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Hazel Blumberg - McKee said:


> … a reporter and a photographer who were completely covered in medical gear were allowed into the ICUs of one hospital. What they reported was so distressing and depressing. One woman who was *intubated *and dying allowed them to take her photograph and quote her. She said, and this is not a direct quote but a paraphrase, "If my photo will help just one person, then it's worth it." I wish this poor woman had gotten her vaccinations and had worn a mask. …


From the reports I've seen, those who're intubated are also put in a medically induced coma for the duration of the intubation - unable to communicate whatsoever.

So, how was she able to say anything?


----------



## Byrney (Nov 9, 2015)

spins2knit said:


> Regarding clotheslines? Apples and oranges. If you prefer, I will recall my support.
> I can agree with one and not the other. Sorry you can't see the difference!


I agree these are different subjects, one is about saving the planet the other is about a pandemic, but the point I'm making is that I was chastised about being judgemental about the mindless destruction of the planet, yet it seems it's ok to be judgemental about those who refuse to be vaccinated. A blanket statement was made that people should be able to make their own life choices in all areas, and that I shouldn't be judgemental. I then saw this subject and felt inclined to say these people were wrong not to be vaccinated, but realised that would be judgemental. But other people are doing that. Why aren't they being told not to be judgemental? It can only be because you agree with their opinion.

Sorry you can't see the similarity and the hypocrisy.


----------



## Beachgirl1000 (Sep 29, 2015)

Jessica-Jean said:


> From the reports I've seen, those who're intubated are also put in a medically induced coma for the duration of the intubation - unable to communicate whatsoever.
> 
> So, how was she able to say anything?


People on ventilators cannot speak at all.


----------



## Beachgirl1000 (Sep 29, 2015)

Byrney said:


> I agree these are different subjects, one is about saving the planet the other is about a pandemic, but the point I'm making is that I was chastised about being judgemental about the mindless destruction of the planet, yet it seems it's ok to be judgemental about those who refuse to be vaccinated. A blanket statement was made that people should be able to make their own life choices in all areas, and that I shouldn't be judgemental. I then saw this subject and felt inclined to say these people were wrong not to be vaccinated, but realised that would be judgemental. But other people are doing that. Why aren't they being told not to be judgemental? It can only be because you agree with their opinion.
> 
> Sorry you can't see the similarity and the hypocrisy.


You are hijacking this topic with your personal problems with posters on another topic. Please stop.


----------



## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

peppered said:


> My boyfriend is on monoclonal antibody treatment every 2 weeks. No covid shots for him on doctors recommendation.
> Both of us had covid. I got very ill, he had mild case.
> Both of us have natural immunity.
> You can read up on it.


If you are depending on "natural" immunity you might want to do some reading yourself. There are many who had the virus who are having repeat infections and other complications.


----------



## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

Byrney said:


> I agree these are different subjects, one is about saving the planet the other is about a pandemic, but the point I'm making is that I was chastised about being judgemental about the mindless destruction of the planet, yet it seems it's ok to be judgemental about those who refuse to be vaccinated. A blanket statement was made that people should be able to make their own life choices in all areas, and that I shouldn't be judgemental. I then saw this subject and felt inclined to say these people were wrong not to be vaccinated, but realised that would be judgemental. But other people are doing that. Why aren't they being told not to be judgemental? It can only be because you agree with their opinion.
> 
> Sorry you can't see the similarity and the hypocrisy.


Please accept the fact that I am not obligated to agree or to disagree with anyone, including you, on any issue whatsoever. If that makes me a hypocrite, so be it.
At least it doesn't make me a sycophant who isn't able to understand the nuances of an argument, either for or against.


----------



## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

Susie2016 said:


> Fox News is a very reliable source of news. The reason some people don't like it is because Fox News is the only news source in the media that does not relentlessly criticize Trump.
> 
> And regarding the vaccination:
> 
> Sure, it's good to get the vax. I have been vaccinated myself. But remember, folks, the minute you let the government start forcing you to do something is when you get one minute closer to losing MORE of your Constitutional rights. For example, we have already lost so much freedom of speech in this country it's unbelievable. You cannot admit to being a conservative without being thrown off Facebook or Twitter, or whatever. Christian businesses are being sued for standing up for their rights. So now, some people are starting to balk at losing other freedoms----such as their freedom to refuse to be vaccinated with an experimental drug.


Your hero, #45, plus family got
vaccinated, so why the fuss? I
thought after they got the shots,
all you fine people would run and
get the shots. What gives?


----------



## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

fortunate1 said:


> They aren't! It is for horses! I just watched local news about people ingesting it and it is poison! If it kills worms in horses, why in the world would anyone ingest it?! Stupid is as Stupid does!


I am so in agreement with you. I am astonished that any human would use Ivermectin on himself or herself. As you say, it is an animal dewormer. It comes in many strengths: for small animals and for large animals such as sheep and horses. I've volunteered and worked for pay at veterinary clinics, for large-animal and small-animal veterinarians. We've administered Ivermectin to many animals of all sizes. But one definitely does _not_ give horse dewormer to a chihuahua, for example. Or vice versa. I have no idea who came up with the idea of giving an animal dewormer to humans, but it is a serious error. People where I live who have tried this idea have ended up poisoned from Ivermectin. Large-animal owners--and we have many cattle, sheep, goats, hogs in this very rural area of the state--have been complaining bitterly in social media and in our local newspaper that they are having trouble finding Ivermectin for their animals because people are purchasing it for themselves. SMH.

We used to have a city-owned flock of sheep who were herded by an "urban sheepherder." Sheep do a great job getting rid of invasive plants, such as kudzu, because they rip out kudzu by the tubers that grow underground and from which kudzu sprouts. Well, some evil idiots kidnapped some of the sheep, no doubt to kill and eat them. The urban sheepherder made sure to post everywhere, on social media and in the local newspaper, that people should not kill and eat the sheep. She told everyone that she had just dewormed the entire flock with Ivermectin and that they, humans, would be poisoned if they ate these sheep. Who knows how many people totally ignored her?

Ivermectin does a terrific job getting rid of worms in large animals and small animals. But it is not meant for human beings. And it does absolutely nothing for COVID.

Hazel


----------



## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> From the reports I've seen, those who're intubated are also put in a medically induced coma for the duration of the intubation - unable to communicate whatsoever.
> 
> So, how was she able to say anything?


My mistake! I no longer have the hard copy article in front of me. It took up most of the _Tallahassee Democrat_ a week ago Sunday, so you can look it up at the TD's website. The woman who was interviewed was not in a medically induced coma. I do not know if that was at her own request or at the request of her doctors. She was able to communicate by writing on a pad of paper with a pencil, as far as I can recall.

Hazel


----------



## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

peppered said:


> My boyfriend is on monoclonal antibody treatment every 2 weeks. No covid shots for him on doctors recommendation.
> Both of us had covid. I got very ill, he had mild case.
> Both of us have natural immunity.
> You can read up on it.


I'll have to look up "natural immunity." I don't know anything about it at all.

Hazel


----------



## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Susie2016 said:


> Fox News is a very reliable source of news.


Sorry, but it is not. Each "announcer's" Facebook page lists him or her as a "news personality," and not as a "reporter." The goal of Fox News is to entertain. To rile up. To get a reaction. Its goal is not to provide truth.

If you choose to believe that Fox News is reporting the truth, that is certainly your prerogative. But please say that you "believe that Fox News is a very reliable source of news." To make the statement that it _is_ a very reliable source of news is fallacious.

Almost all "news" sources have a slant. It's really best to read a wide variety of news, from different sources all over the political spectrum, from all over the world. Or try Reuters, which is the most reliable and unbiased news source out there.

You have said that "Fox News is a very reliable source of news." It would be very instructive for the rest of us if you would give us sources that prove that Fox News is "very reliable."

Hazel


----------



## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Don't ALL patients have to pay for their medical care?


I think it depends on the country in which you live. Certainly, here in the US, we must all pay for our own medical care. If we are fortunate, we have health insurance, which pays for part but rarely all of our medical care. Of course, we must pay for our health insurance. Or perhaps we're fortunate enough to have an employer that pays for part or all of it. If you do not have health insurance in the US--and you are not required to, and some employers do not provide their employees with any, especially if the employees work part-time--you are totally out of luck. People go into bankruptcy here trying to pay their medical bills.

I just read an interesting article in a recent issue of the _New Yorker_ about medical care in Costa Rica. It is mind-blowing how well the people of Costa Rica are cared for. Their life expectancy is greater than that of the US, whose life expectancy has been falling.

Hazel


----------



## Byrney (Nov 9, 2015)

spins2knit said:


> Please accept the fact that I am not obligated to agree or to disagree with anyone, including you, on any issue whatsoever. If that makes me a hypocrite, so be it.
> At least it doesn't make me a sycophant who isn't able to understand the nuances of an argument, either for or against.


I'm not asking you to agree with me. Just don't chastise me for being judgemental on one subject and then go and be judgemental yourself on another.


----------



## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

jeanpf said:


> I find it strange that there is an assumption that those that have chosen not to be vaccinated have done so without making an informed decision.
> I was diagnosed in 2002 as having Multiple Chemical Sensitivities (MCS). Because of this I am used to getting the facts on ingredients in products, to find if I can use them. It was a difficult task to find the ingredients of the vaccines.
> Since 1998, my husband has had 4 strokes, and is susceptible to blood clots, has a fibrillating heart, high blood pressure, rheumatoid arthritis and osteoarthritis, lost his sight in one eye due to RVO, and glaucoma in the other. So he is taking many medications. After he looked at the side affects and potential repercussions, he opted not to have the vaccine.
> We are in our 70's, and we did not make our decision lightly.
> Everybody's situation is different, and it is important to get all of the facts, so as to make an informed decision.


It was not difficult getting the facts on the ingredients in the vaccines here in Ontario. Everyone who was vaccinated was given a multi-page handout with facts , including ingredients, of not only the vaccine that they were administered but also the others that are approved for use in Canada.


----------



## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Granny41 said:


> It was not difficult getting the facts on the ingredients in the vaccines here in Ontario. Everyone who was vaccinated was given a multi-page handout with facts , including ingredients, of not only the vaccine that they were administered but also the others that are approved for use in Canada.


We got our vaccinations at the Leon County (Florida) Department of Health, when they were the only source of the vaccine in our county. (Since then, many more sources have opened up, thank goodness. There were such long lines at the DOH. And we all waited expectantly for a phone call telling us when to appear for our vaccines. I'd volunteered to make the calls, and a big group of us took part in an online explanatory meeting. People were so thrilled to receive these calls that it was a true pleasure to make them.) We were presented with a sheaf of papers on the contents of the vaccines and all sorts of other information, as well.

Hazel


----------



## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Montana Gramma said:


> Over half of our new Covid cases are the variant and over half getting it are vaccinated. Both our neighbours contracted it in church, 25 were blessed with Covid within a few days. They had the JJ and P shots. We must just use common sense and enjoy outside activities, shop when it is not busy, wash your nose hairs,hands etc. often, drink hot beverages to wash away germs in the mouth and throat to good old stomach acid and leave name calling etc. aside, just makes the blood pressure go up and convinces no one when accosted with the "why don't you". I am not responsible for others actions, only my own, trying to make people comply is only a fight without a referee, imho. Of course it is heartrendering that those unvaccinated are sharing the disease but name calling doesn't justify the education and some truly do not trust anything the government is involved with, some have legitimate reasons I am sure. I tend to go with what works best for me and that is not have my family worry about me and me not worry about close contact without the best protection. Remember , everyone chooses to go out in public for more than just recreational reasons. We have no rural delivery here for prescriptions or groceries, daily functions are not all possible on the phone or internet, like tax troubles for one, many are out on face to face contact because they have to be and if they chose not to be vaccinated for reasons they deem sincere, they are likely worried about that contact too. Not are all stupid, lazy, etc.


Could you please recommend a good shampoo and conditioner for nose hairs? Thanks!


----------



## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Granny41 said:


> Could you please recommend a good shampoo and conditioner for nose hairs? Thanks!


Snort!

I just saw an ad in the latest _New Yorker_ (Sept. 13, 2021) for Neutrogena Rapid-Firming Collagen Triple-Lift Serum. Now, _that_ would do a great job on nose hairs! Also ear hairs! Also just about everything else. Well, except for that naughty under-chin area, which I doubt that it'd help at all.

Hazel


----------



## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Susie2016 said:


> Fox News is a very reliable source of news. The reason some people don't like it is because Fox News is the only news source in the media that does not relentlessly criticize Trump.
> 
> And regarding the vaccination:
> 
> Sure, it's good to get the vax. I have been vaccinated myself. But remember, folks, the minute you let the government start forcing you to do something is when you get one minute closer to losing MORE of your Constitutional rights. For example, we have already lost so much freedom of speech in this country it's unbelievable. You cannot admit to being a conservative without being thrown off Facebook or Twitter, or whatever. Christian businesses are being sued for standing up for their rights. So now, some people are starting to balk at losing other freedoms----such as their freedom to refuse to be vaccinated with an experimental drug.


Had Donald J Trump had his way your country would have entirely * lost it's constitution on January 6/2021*. News flash----the vaccines are not experimental. They have been * authorized* for use both in your country and mine.


----------



## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

Granny41 said:


> Had Donald J Trump had his way your country would have entirely * lost it's constitution on January 6/2021*. News flash----the vaccines are not experimental. They have been * authorized* for use both in your country and mine.


They didn't tell her that on Fox Entertainment so I guess it isn't true.


----------



## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

quilter said:


> They didn't tell her that on Fox Entertainment so I guess it isn't true.


Not in their alternate universe!


----------



## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Natural immunity? Have you also seen where reinfection happens, because the lungs are in a weakened condition. Studies recently show that at 6-8 months, that NI starts to decline. Studies also show, that those currently that have NI, have a second layer of protection when vaccinated, and decreases the risk of reinfection.


----------



## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Getting my booster in Oct! Flu shot too!


----------



## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Here's an article from the Cleveland Clinic about immunity to COVID. As the Cleveland Clinic says, more research is needed, because their studies took place before the delta variant showed up.

https://newsroom.clevelandclinic.org/2021/06/09/cleveland-clinic-statement-on-previous-covid-19-infection-research/

Also, here's an article by the CDC:

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html

Hazel


----------



## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

fortunate1 said:


> Getting my booster in Oct! Flu shot too!


I hope to get my booster in October, too. Normally I haven't gotten flu shots. But I did last year, because it was highly recommended. And I'll do so again this year.

Hazel


----------



## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Hazel Blumberg - McKee said:


> Here's an article from the Cleveland Clinic about immunity to COVID. As the Cleveland Clinic says, more research is needed, because their studies took place before the delta variant showed up.
> 
> https://newsroom.clevelandclinic.org/2021/06/09/cleveland-clinic-statement-on-previous-covid-19-infection-research/
> 
> ...


Do you suppose that Jenny12 would consider these credible sources? They are not local professionals!


----------



## KateLyn11 (Jul 19, 2014)

My “back yard” expert is my doctor who said to get immunized.


----------



## KnittingNut (Jan 19, 2011)

quilter said:


> They didn't tell her that on Fox Entertainment so I guess it isn't true.


If Fox News was properly named, it would be the Fox Inquirer News Entertainment Network. It is nothing more than an entertainment rag translated to cable untrue news. It's in every grocery store, and now has expanded the same format to your screen. When political news is lagging, they will probably start broadcasting two headed cows, big-eyed space aliens, and Elvis seen on Times Square. There is a market for tantalizing fake news you know. Q people will eat it up. Sorry, I'm off topic....


----------



## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Granny41 said:


> Do you suppose that Jenny12 would consider these credible sources? They are not local professionals!


I don't know. I don't have a Cleveland Clinic in my town. There is a Cleveland Clinic in Florida, though, in Weston, near Miami, which is over a 9-hour-long drive from where I live. And the CDC is far from where I live, as well.

Hazel


----------



## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Granny41 said:


> It was not difficult getting the facts on the ingredients in the vaccines here in Ontario. Everyone who was vaccinated was given a multi-page handout with facts , including ingredients, of not only the vaccine that they were administered but also the others that are approved for use in Canada.


That's interesting. We got only a single sheet with the name of the vaccine, name of the nurse who filled the syringe, name and profession of the person who injected it, time/date/location it was administered, which shoulder got jabbed, and the identifying lot numbers of the vaccine. 
I, not being a medical professional, don't think knowing the exact ingredients would do me any good. The professionals had the list of my medications and to what I am allergic.


----------



## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Granny41 said:


> Could you please recommend a good shampoo and conditioner for nose hairs? Thanks!


. :sm23:


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

I read a an article, I think it was a UK Uni ,that explained why several foks don't get shots and it opened my eyes a bit. I will try and find it again if anyone wants it, it was very long. It gave ,in depth, multiple reasons why folks don't get shots and to be fair much of it was clearly understandable. After I finished reading it I felt sorry for some of the folks, not all, and fortunately I am able to get them as is everyone I personally know. The one thing that came accross loud and clear to me is that we are being somewhat unfair to many folks to judge them harshly just because they haven't had them. I am extremely glad I found it. I do however still think that a political reason is not what I consider right. To be totally fair I think one should seperate the political nay sayers from the others. Yes they have their rights and I believe stongly in personal rights but there is no way I would let my personal choices be responsible for the death of someone else. I would ask folks in that position to please I beg you think again, forget that you feel the government is controlling you for a while and make it your personal choice, no one is making you, but I am asking you to reconsider as respectfully as I can to change your mind...please.

In Canada now we have a vaxx passport and people are protesting that. I have absolutely no problem with their protests, it is their choice and I agree with them on this point. They do not have to carry it, however it may make a differnce to where thay can go but shops etc have their rights too. It is a difficult one to choose between.

I also want to spend a minute or two giving a huge thank you to all the nursing staff that are the front liners in this dreadful situation. Sadly some have quit and personally I cannot blame them, the stress and fatigue can only be taken for so long. I am an ex nurse way back and I know I would stay till I dropped, but dropping may come to them one by one,. I think they deserve medals for their courage. They have my applause and I send them all the love and prayers I can, it is little. Do you all remember at the start of this, we all honked are horns or rang bells to support them at 7pm every night for weeks in my area. So tonight I am going to ring my big outside dinner bell again, It may be the only one but it will make me feel better.

To all the nurses reading this. I so wish I could join you, but at 79 and disabled I could not help..bless you all, stay strong but look after you too. XX Jeannine


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

We have a handyman who does excellent work and has worked for us for years. I asked him if he'd had his vaccinations. No, he said. I asked him why. He'd been in the army and had served in the Gulf War. Before he was deployed, he said, he was told that no chemicals were going to be used on him and his fellow soldiers. But after he got home, he was told that chemicals had indeed been used on them. He has numerous medical issues and goes to the VA Hospital to get treated. He fears that whatever chemicals were used on him may cause a major interaction with the COVID vaccines. Also, he doesn't exactly trust the government.

I really don't know what to say to him about this. So I say nothing.

BTW, he has no problem with wearing a mask if he's asked to do so by someone for whom he's working.

Hazel


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

For the Love of Shetland said:


> I read a an article, I think it was a UK Uni ,that explained why several foks don't get shots and it opened my eyes a bit. I will try and find it again if anyone wants it, it was very long. It gave ,in depth, multiple reasons why folks don't get shots and to be fair much of it was clearly understandable. After I finished reading it I felt sorry for some of the folks, not all, and fortunately I am able to get them as is everyone I personally know. The one thing that came accross loud and clear to me is that we are being somewhat unfair to many folks to judge them harshly just because they haven't had them. I am extremely glad I found it. I do however still think that a political reason is not what I consider right. To be totally fair I think one should seperate the political nay sayers from the others. Yes they have their rights and I believe stongly in personal rights but there is no way I would let my personal choices be responsible for the death of someone else. I would ask folks in that position to please I beg you think again, forget that you feel the government is controlling you for a while and make it your personal choice, no one is making you, but I am asking you to reconsider as respectfully as I can to change your mind...please.
> 
> In Canada now we have a vaxx passport and people are protesting that. I have absolutely no problem with their protests, it is their choice and I agree with them on this point. They do not have to carry it, however it may make a differnce to where thay can go but shops etc have their rights too. It is a difficult one to choose between.
> 
> ...


I don't mind people protesting. It's WHERE they protest that gets my ire. Blocking access to hospitals should be illegal, if it isn't already.


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> I don't mind people protesting. It's WHERE they protest that gets my ire. Blocking access to hospitals should be illegal, if it isn't already.


Agree with you 100 percent.

Hazel


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

Me too, it is unfair.


Hazel Blumberg - McKee said:


> Agree with you 100 percent.
> 
> Hazel


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

Jessica-Jean said:


> I don't mind people protesting. It's WHERE they protest that gets my ire. Blocking access to hospitals should be illegal, if it isn't already.


Protestors in regard to the Black Lives Matter protests sometimes block roadways here. I think that should be illegal. I think one time a part of the freeway was closed because of protestors. That is simply not right, in my opinion.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

While I was typing a few minutes ago I gt a call from the only person I know who is refusing a shot. She is an ex in law and I love her dearly. She is also mentally challenged. She has a few contacts who have told her it will hurt her so she is terribly scared. I just told her that the risk of hurt from the shot is nothing compared to the risk of Covid and begged her to get it. She makes pocket money picking up groceries for seniors and is out all the time so she is really taking a gamble. She seems to think that if she gets it and has to go to the hospital they will give her a Covid shot and all will be well. But she is very scared and thinks she will get a blood clot and die. I tried. No one can blame this person for not getting a shot, she simply doesn't understand the danger to herself ot anyone else. Her Dr has expalined but said it is her decision in the end.She has no Mum and I am the person who she looks to for a Mum,generally she vists me regularly, at least twice a month and usually leaves with a wheelie bag full of groceries but I won't let her come here till she has had both shots plus 2 weeks. She cried on the phone but I stuck to my decision, it was very very hard. I have even told her I will treat her to $100 per shot.What else could I do, I can think of nothing more.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

For the Love of Shetland said:


> While I was typing a few minutes ago I gt a call from the only person I know who is refusing a shot. She is an ex in law and I love her dearly. She is also mentally challenged. She has a few contacts who have told her it will hurt her so she is terribly scared. I just told her that the risk of hurt from the shot is nothing compared to the risk of Covid and begged her to get it. She makes pocket money picking up groceries for seniors and is out all the time so she is really taking a gamble. She seems to think that if she gets it and has to go to the hospital they will give her a Covid shot and all will be well. But she is very scared and thinks she will get a blood clot and die. I tried. No one can blame this person for not getting a shot, she simply doesn't understand the danger to herself ot anyone else. Her Dr has expalined but said it is her decision in the end.She has no Mum and I am the person who she looks to for a Mum,generally she vists me regularly, at least twice a month and usually leaves with a wheelie bag full of groceries but I won't let her come here till she has had both shots plus 2 weeks. She cried on the phone but I stuck to my decision, it was very very hard. I have even told her I will treat her to $100 per shot.What else could I do, I can think of nothing more.


Other than hog-tying her to get the vaccine (illegal), you've done what you could.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

You are right of course but I feel so bad. I just feel if I dangle the carrots she may cave in. I am at a loss as to what to try. I feel so strongly she will get it, she lives in the next town to me and travels to my town every day on the bus because she visits folks she knows all day, She lived in this town till 6 months ago and hasn't settled. Truly she is asking for it.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

For the Love of Shetland said:


> I read a an article, I think it was a UK Uni ,that explained why several foks don't get shots and it opened my eyes a bit. I will try and find it again if anyone wants it, it was very long. It gave ,in depth, multiple reasons why folks don't get shots and to be fair much of it was clearly understandable. After I finished reading it I felt sorry for some of the folks, not all, and fortunately I am able to get them as is everyone I personally know. The one thing that came accross loud and clear to me is that we are being somewhat unfair to many folks to judge them harshly just because they haven't had them. I am extremely glad I found it. I do however still think that a political reason is not what I consider right. To be totally fair I think one should seperate the political nay sayers from the others. Yes they have their rights and I believe stongly in personal rights but there is no way I would let my personal choices be responsible for the death of someone else. I would ask folks in that position to please I beg you think again, forget that you feel the government is controlling you for a while and make it your personal choice, no one is making you, but I am asking you to reconsider as respectfully as I can to change your mind...please.
> 
> In Canada now we have a vaxx passport and people are protesting that. I have absolutely no problem with their protests, it is their choice and I agree with them on this point. They do not have to carry it, however it may make a differnce to where thay can go but shops etc have their rights too. It is a difficult one to choose between.
> 
> ...


We in Ontario do not have a COVID19 passport as yet. There is currently a patchwork of provinces with passports but nothing issued by the federal government.


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## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

LOL, LOL.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Granny41 said:


> We in Ontario do not have a COVID19 passport as yet. There is currently a patchwork of provinces with passports but nothing issued by the federal government.


Eventually - within the next year? - there will probably be vaccine passports everywhere.


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## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

Saw on the news tonight that the Pfizer vaccine's protection starts dropping after 6 months anyway. But they haven't made up their minds whether we can all get booster shots. Only immunocompromised people can get them right now.

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210728/pfizer-vaccine-protection-wanes-after-6-months-study-finds

Also, there are some states in the USA which have actually BANNED vaccine passports.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/which-states-have-banned-vaccine-passports

I also saw on the news that cloth face masks only protect against COVID at around 40%. But there are no mask mandates where I live so very few people are wearing them.

It's like I told everybody last year-----it's only going to get more confusing. And people in the USA are arguing left and right about it. We just got back from Jamaica. And the rules about masks in the airports and the planes were strict. But we didn't have to wear them at the resort in Jamaica. We were tested for COVID going to Jamaica and coming back from Jamaica. They made us use hand cleanser everywhere. Now that we're back to the crazy house here in America, we sure do miss the nice calm beaches in Montego Bay......

Please have sympathy for me folks. At Christmas the DH and I have to go see my mother in Texas.....who refuses to get vaccinated. We're vaccinated----but you never know about those breakthrough infections. Anyway, she is on her last legs and so we can't refuse to go see her. She lives with other un-vaccinated family there. But what are ya gonna do? I would never forgive myself if I didn't go see my mother on her last Christmas.

Yes, life is so confusing these days.


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## eneira12 (Dec 18, 2013)

Is there any way that those of us who are fully vaccinated can wear masks and volunteer to help with the paperwork or something else?


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## peppered (May 16, 2014)

Hazel Blumberg - McKee said:


> I am so in agreement with you. I am astonished that any human would use Ivermectin on himself or herself. As you say, it is an animal dewormer. It comes in many strengths: for small animals and for large animals such as sheep and horses. I've volunteered and worked for pay at veterinary clinics, for large-animal and small-animal veterinarians. We've administered Ivermectin to many animals of all sizes. But one definitely does _not_ give horse dewormer to a chihuahua, for example. Or vice versa. I have no idea who came up with the idea of giving an animal dewormer to humans, but it is a serious error. People where I live who have tried this idea have ended up poisoned from Ivermectin. Large-animal owners--and we have many cattle, sheep, goats, hogs in this very rural area of the state--have been complaining bitterly in social media and in our local newspaper that they are having trouble finding Ivermectin for their animals because people are purchasing it for themselves. SMH.
> 
> We used to have a city-owned flock of sheep who were herded by an "urban sheepherder." Sheep do a great job getting rid of invasive plants, such as kudzu, because they rip out kudzu by the tubers that grow underground and from which kudzu sprouts. Well, some evil idiots kidnapped some of the sheep, no doubt to kill and eat them. The urban sheepherder made sure to post everywhere, on social media and in the local newspaper, that people should not kill and eat the sheep. She told everyone that she had just dewormed the entire flock with Ivermectin and that they, humans, would be poisoned if they ate these sheep. Who knows how many people totally ignored her?
> 
> ...


https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horowitz-the-unmistakable-ivermectin-miracle-in-the-indian-state-of-uttar-pradesh#toggle-gdpr


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

eneira12 said:


> Is there any way that those of us who are fully vaccinated can wear masks and volunteer to help with the paperwork or something else?


The only way to find out would be to ask at the institution. I suspect that volunteers in at-risk age groups (most KPers, I imagine) would be thanked and asked to stay far away from a place where there are too many already infected people.


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

Jessica-Jean said:


> The only way to find out would be to ask at the institution. I suspect that volunteers in at-risk age groups (most KPers, I imagine) would be thanked and asked to stay far away from a place where there are too many already infected people.


 Sadly, many people would not recognize this as satire.


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## KnittingNut (Jan 19, 2011)

peppered said:


> https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horowitz-the-unmistakable-ivermectin-miracle-in-the-indian-state-of-uttar-pradesh#toggle-gdpr


Is a drug that treats parasites in animals safe for human consumption? The fact checker site states that there is no conclusive proof that this drug is effective in covid treatment. So, you'd rather take an animal drug than a vaccine? That sounds like my then two-year-old that would rather eat roly poly bugs than her broccoli.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Prism99 said:


> Sadly, many people would not recognize this as satire.


Really? I didn't intend it to be satirical. 
Or do you mean eneira12's post to which I replied?


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Really? I didn't intend it to be satirical.
> Or do you mean eneira12's post to which I replied?


 Sorry. I confused Horowitz with Borowitz. So is this article for real? I mean, does someone actually take credit for this fabrication?

Edit: OMG. I looked up Blaze Media. How can these people sleep at night?


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

Prism99 said:


> Sorry. I confused Horowitz with Borowitz. So is this article for real? I mean, does someone actually take credit for this fabrication?
> 
> Edit: OMG. I looked up Blaze Media. How can these people sleep at night?


These people don't need to sleep;
they've sold their souls.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Prism99 said:


> Sorry. I confused Horowitz with Borowitz. So is this article for real? I mean, does someone actually take credit for this fabrication?


This is page 16 of a topic begun on September 13th. 
My memory being what it is - more sieve-like than not - there may well have been some mention of one or both of the -witz, but not by me.


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## peppered (May 16, 2014)

KnittingNut said:


> Is a drug that treats parasites in animals safe for human consumption? The fact checker site states that there is no conclusive proof that this drug is effective in covid treatment. So, you'd rather take an animal drug than a vaccine? That sounds like my then two-year-old that would rather eat roly poly bugs than her broccoli.


https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/Fulltext/2021/06000/Review_of_the_Emerging_Evidence_Demonstrating_the.4.aspx
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/
https://www.google.com/search?q=ivermectin+virus+study+2012&rlz=1C1CHNY_enUS910US910&oq=ivermectin&aqs=chrome.0.69i59l3j69i57j69i59l2j69i60l2.10875j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

KnittingNut said:


> Is a drug that treats parasites in animals safe for human consumption? The fact checker site states that there is no conclusive proof that this drug is effective in covid treatment. So, you'd rather take an animal drug than a vaccine? That sounds like my then two-year-old that would rather eat roly poly bugs than her broccoli.


Every where I turn, there is news about this. It is poison, more calls to doctors, to poison control centers, and people showing up at ED after taking it! I hope these fools, realize a horse is much larger than they are too, and the dose recommended would be an overdose for them! Why would anyone take anything you have to get at a farm or ranch supply store to be used to kill worms, in an animal? Would you go to the vet and ask for him to treat you for strep throat, or give you Chemo? I can not believe people are this insane! They may as well drink bleach or lysol. Same mind set.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

here ya go darlin...If you won't get the vaccine..this is something else you should consider...difference between human and animal! CDC has not approved anything! https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

https://www.drugs.com/medical-answers/ivermectin-treat-covid-19-coronavirus-3535912/


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

https://www.axios.com/fda-ivermectin-treat-covid-mississippi-50fe9799-aa49-4468-b9f4-d56d33129f18.html


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

https://www.drugs.com/ivermectin.html dosage for parasites...not for any other reason.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Ok...smart people..those who think...rationally...do not take ivermectin ! Period! Especially if used by a vet! Human dosage for parasites is not the same, and should NOT be used outside of a medical setting! The small amount will do NOTHING to stop the virus! MORE research is needed! PERIOD!!!!


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

peppered said:


> https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/Fulltext/2021/06000/Review_of_the_Emerging_Evidence_Demonstrating_the.4.aspx
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/
> https://www.google.com/search?q=ivermectin+virus+study+2012&rlz=1C1CHNY_enUS910US910&oq=ivermectin&aqs=chrome.0.69i59l3j69i57j69i59l2j69i60l2.10875j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


So, if you want to take it..do it. If you are afraid of the vaccine..this stuff should scare you out a years sleep. IT is not approved by the FDA! Overdose is easy to do. The med you get from a vet is meant for animals of bigger body mass..it will and can kill you!
I can not understand why anyone would tout a medication that is not approved, but will not take a vaccine, that has been. Senseless. I am thro trying to convince non critical thinkers, to avoid killing themselves. Above my pay grade...so take it. Call your vet tomorrow.


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

peppered said:


> https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/Fulltext/2021/06000/Review_of_the_Emerging_Evidence_Demonstrating_the.4.aspx
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/
> https://www.google.com/search?q=ivermectin+virus+study+2012&rlz=1C1CHNY_enUS910US910&oq=ivermectin&aqs=chrome.0.69i59l3j69i57j69i59l2j69i60l2.10875j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


 It's good that research is being reported. It's bad that this research is stunningly misunderstood by people who are untrained in science.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

fortunate1 said:


> here ya go darlin...If you won't get the vaccine..this is something else you should consider...difference between human and animal! CDC has not approved anything! https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19


There's one line in there that may be putting people off, especially if they don't have medical insurance and/or a family doctor: 
*Talk to your health care provider about available COVID-19 vaccines and treatment options.*

That's still no excuse for taking veterinary drugs.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

fortunate1 said:


> … Senseless. I am thro trying to convince non critical thinkers, to avoid killing themselves. Above my pay grade...so take it. *Call your vet tomorrow.*


And the nearest emergency room after taking the non-prescribed drug.
Who knows if they'll even have room to treat you?


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

Jessica-Jean said:


> This is page 16 of a topic begun on September 13th.
> My memory being what it is - more sieve-like than not - there may well have been some mention of one or both of the -witz, but not by me.


 Sorry, it was just me. Borowitz satire has been featured in other threads. I misremembered Borowitz as Horowitz and thought that specific article was satire (the author was listed as Horowitz).

I'm beginning to understand why so many people are falling for the vaccination substitutes. These articles are written very persuasively. What concerns me is how bad science education in this country must be when even some nurses fall for this kind of stuff.

We all have confirmation bias, but few seem to be aware of it in themselves. If someone doesn't want to get vaccinated (for whatever reason), confirmation bias drives them to look for confirmation that they are right. Those of us who see vaccination as a lifesaver look for confirmation that we are right. We all want to be right. An understanding of science coupled with critical thinking skills are what allow us to accurately weigh one set of evidence against another. It is crazy that so many people lack the insight and skills to understand which body of evidence is more likely to be correct.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Prism99 said:


> … An understanding of science coupled with critical thinking skills are what allow us to accurately weigh one set of evidence against another. *It is crazy that so many people lack the insight and skills to understand which body of evidence is more likely to be correct.*


 "Confirmation bias" is a new term for me. It didn't come up in my Introduction to Psychology class back in 2004. This article explains a LOT of the world's problems! https://www.britannica.com/science/confirmation-bias

I fear the education system - including what's learnt at home and at church - is failing our youngsters. Maybe critical thinking should be taught sooner? Say, beginning in fourth grade?


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

KnittingNut said:


> Is a drug that treats parasites in animals safe for human consumption? The fact checker site states that there is no conclusive proof that this drug is effective in covid treatment. So, you'd rather take an animal drug than a vaccine? That sounds like my then two-year-old that would rather eat roly poly bugs than her broccoli.


I don't blame her 
about broccoli.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

crochetknit Deb said:


> I don't blame her
> about broccoli.


Once I learned it didn't need to be cooked to complete limpness, I began liking broccoli, and a whole lot of other veggies I hadn't before. My grandmother really wasn't the best of cooks. She preferred canned to fresh, and even those she boiled to death. Frozen could have been good, had she not insisted on boiling them so long. I have no idea who - if anyone - taught her to cook vegetables. If they weren't boiled into submission, they were fried in an inch of Crisco. Ugh!
Steaming was beyond her ken.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

Oh well JJ, if you were in the Uk you woud be starting to cook your Christmas Brusssel Sprouts next month


Jessica-Jean said:


> Once I learned it didn't need to be cooked to complete limpness, I began liking broccoli, and a whole lot of other veggies I hadn't before. My grandmother really wasn't the best of cooks. She preferred canned to fresh, and even those she boiled to death. Frozen could have been good, had she not insisted on boiling them so long. I have no idea who - if anyone - taught her to cook vegetables. If they weren't boiled into submission, they were fried in an inch of Crisco. Ugh!
> Steaming was beyond her ken.


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## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

peppered said:


> https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/Fulltext/2021/06000/Review_of_the_Emerging_Evidence_Demonstrating_the.4.aspx
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/
> https://www.google.com/search?q=ivermectin+virus+study+2012&rlz=1C1CHNY_enUS910US910&oq=ivermectin&aqs=chrome.0.69i59l3j69i57j69i59l2j69i60l2.10875j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


Checked out your first source and here is what is available:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w

Looks like false data.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

peppered said:


> https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horowitz-the-unmistakable-ivermectin-miracle-in-the-indian-state-of-uttar-pradesh#toggle-gdpr


And who would ever question the credibility of The Blaze??? And of course any scientific reporting of a medical miracle from Uttar Pradesh is beyond question!


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

For the Love of Shetland said:


> Oh well JJ, if you were in the Uk you woud be starting to cook your Christmas Brusssel Sprouts next month


No problem. My husband steams up some every time he deems the price good.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

JennyG12 said:


> There are indeed many legitimate reasons. Anyone who has been following all of these topics about Covid would have already read all of them by now. Giving a list is fruitless and will only crash and burn with nah-sayers of what we list or say.


Translation: You have no such list.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Susie2016 said:


> Fox News is a very reliable source of news. The reason some people don't like it is because Fox News is the only news source in the media that does not relentlessly criticize Trump.
> 
> And regarding the vaccination:
> 
> Sure, it's good to get the vax. I have been vaccinated myself. But remember, folks, the minute you let the government start forcing you to do something is when you get one minute closer to losing MORE of your Constitutional rights. For example, we have already lost so much freedom of speech in this country it's unbelievable. You cannot admit to being a conservative without being thrown off Facebook or Twitter, or whatever. Christian businesses are being sued for standing up for their rights. So now, some people are starting to balk at losing other freedoms----such as their freedom to refuse to be vaccinated with an experimental drug.


You do not have a constitutional right to post on Facebook or Twitter. Only the Government can restrict your right to free speech. Look it up if you don't believe me.

The vaccines are not "experimental." And they are not drugs.

It may interest you to know that Fox News demands DAILY testing for unvaccinated employees, which is more strict than what Biden has promoted. So, if they are saying one thing on the air but DOING something else in real life, there is a definite contradiction. Watch what they DO, not what they say.

As for christian businesses being sued, lawsuits are being brought by private parties. Again, NOT government at all.

Your understanding of logic and facts is absent on all counts.


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Evie RM said:


> Protestors in regard to the Black Lives Matter protests sometimes block roadways here. I think that should be illegal. I think one time a part of the freeway was closed because of protestors. That is simply not right, in my opinion.


I don't think that's happened in quite a long time. And you write that you "think" "one time a part of the freeway was closed because of protestors." Was it, or was it not, closed? And blocking a roadway briefly isn't the same as blocking the way into a hospital. I would hope that the BLM protesters, and all other protesters regarding _any_ cause, would let an ambulance, a fire truck, an emergency vehicle through. If not, then that's when there are problems.

And why single out BLM protesters, anyway? What about the "protesters" who, on January 6, attempted to overthrow the legitimate government of the US by storming, destroying, stealing from, defecating in the US Capitol? What the January 6 terrorists (yes, let's call them what they were: terrorists armed with guns and other weapons who beat up police) did was sedition and treason, high crimes and misdemeanors.

Hazel


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Susie2016 said:


> Yes, life is so confusing these days.


Totally agree with you. Life _is_ so confusing these days. All I can say, and much that I read in medical studies, is "More research is needed."

Hazel


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

peppered said:


> https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horowitz-the-unmistakable-ivermectin-miracle-in-the-indian-state-of-uttar-pradesh#toggle-gdpr


From the "About" section of Blaze Media: "Blaze Media is news and entertainment for people who love America."

OK, so which is "news" and which is "entertainment"? Who, exactly, are the "people who love America"? I have some difficulty believing pretty much anything that The Blaze publishes.

Hazel


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Eventually - within the next year? - there will probably be vaccine passports everywhere.


I sincerely hope so.

Hazel


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Susie2016 said:


> Saw on the news tonight that the Pfizer vaccine's protection starts dropping after 6 months anyway. But they haven't made up their minds whether we can all get booster shots. Only immunocompromised people can get them right now.
> 
> https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210728/pfizer-vaccine-protection-wanes-after-6-months-study-finds
> 
> ...


From the study at WebMD that you cited: "The July 28, 2021, pre-print report of the study, which has not been peer-reviewed, suggests a gradual 'declining trend in vaccine efficacy' over 6 months after two doses of the Pfizer vaccine in more than 45,000 people worldwide."

Problems: (1) This is a pre-print report of the study. It is not a final report. (2) Either the report or the study, it is not clear which, has not been peer-reviewed. In order for a medical study to have any sort of validity, it _must_ be peer-reviewed. If it is not peer-reviewed, then it has no validity. (3) The report (or the study?) "suggests" a gradual declining. What does "suggests" mean? Is there, or is there not, a decline?

In addition, the WebMD article notes: "The data comes from a relatively small number of people studied. There were 11 people in the 18- to 55-year-old group and 12 people in the 65- to 85-year-old group." So, in this study, there were exactly 23 people. That is an astoundingly small sample for any study. No conclusions can be drawn from such a tiny group of people. You need hundreds, or better yet, thousands, of people in a study to get any results that mean anything.

Did you read the WebMD article? Or did you simply see the headline and then offer its URL to us? It is very important to read what a study purports to prove. This "study" does not deserve the title of "study." It is a mere handful of people.

Simply because there has been a study, and simply because someone, with no input from other professionals (epidemiologists, medical researchers, etc.), has carried out and published a study on a tiny number of people (and we have no idea if these people came from all over the US or the world or from one town in one country or. . . .), does not mean the study has any validity.

Hazel


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

fortunate1 said:


> here ya go darlin...If you won't get the vaccine..this is something else you should consider...difference between human and animal! CDC has not approved anything! https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19


Thank you!

I don't know who first came up with the "brilliant" idea of using an animal dewormer on people and claiming that it prevented or cured (I'm not sure which; perhaps both?) COVID. I've volunteered and worked for pay at veterinary clinics, for large- and small-animal veterinarians. When we administered Ivermectin, the vets always warned us to _immediately_ scrub up (of course, we scrubbed up before administering the drug) so that we did not accidentally ingest any of it ourselves. It is _dangerous_ to humans.

Ah well. I guess that, if people will attempt to drink bleach or "inject sunshine" into themselves, they'll try anything. Heaven forfend that there be any medical or epidemiological proof that such measures work.

Hazel


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

fortunate1 said:


> So, if you want to take it..do it. If you are afraid of the vaccine..this stuff should scare you out a years sleep. IT is not approved by the FDA! Overdose is easy to do. The med you get from a vet is meant for animals of bigger body mass..it will and can kill you!
> I can not understand why anyone would tout a medication that is not approved, but will not take a vaccine, that has been. Senseless. I am thro trying to convince non critical thinkers, to avoid killing themselves. Above my pay grade...so take it. Call your vet tomorrow.


Thank you once again!

Yes, call your veterinarian. He or she will tell you/scream at you "Do not ever use an animal dewormer on a person for any reason!"

FWIW, we care for eight cats and one dog. We often take our animals to our veterinarians. They are brilliant and knowledgeable, and they never stop studying the latest veterinary and pharmaceutical information that comes their way. They subscribe to veterinary medical journals and study them. We feel that our animals are in the very best hands with them. I know that they would never tell us to use Ivermectin on ourselves. If they uttered such nonsense, and they were reported to the veterinary medical authorities, they would lose their licenses to practice.

Hazel


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

fortunate1 said:


> Every where I turn, there is news about this. It is poison, more calls to doctors, to poison control centers, and people showing up at ED after taking it! I hope these fools, realize a horse is much larger than they are too, and the dose recommended would be an overdose for them! Why would anyone take anything you have to get at a farm or ranch supply store to be used to kill worms, in an animal? Would you go to the vet and ask for him to treat you for strep throat, or give you Chemo? I can not believe people are this insane! They may as well drink bleach or lysol. Same mind set.


If you look at the research in the links members have provided, your statement is not true. There is a difference between animal and human Ivermectin.

A large majority of randomized and observational controlled trials of ivermectin are reporting repeated, large magnitude improvements in clinical outcomes. Numerous prophylaxis trials demonstrate that regular ivermectin use leads to large reductions in transmission. Multiple, large "natural experiments" occurred in regions that initiated "ivermectin distribution" campaigns followed by tight, reproducible, temporally associated decreases in case counts and case fatality rates compared with nearby regions without such campaigns.

Safety of ivermectin
Numerous studies report low rates of adverse events, with the majority mild, transient, and largely attributed to the body's inflammatory response to the death of the parasites and include itching, rash, swollen lymph nodes, joint paints, fever, and headache.75 In a study that combined results from trials including more than 50,000 patients, serious events occurred in less than 1% and largely associated with administration in Loa loa.76 Furthermore, according to the pharmaceutical reference standard Lexicomp, the only medications contraindicated for use with ivermectin are the concurrent administration of antituberculosis and cholera vaccines while the anticoagulant warfarin would require dose monitoring. Another special caution is that immunosuppressed or organ transplant patients who are on calcineurin inhibitors, such as tacrolimus or cyclosporine, or the immunosuppressant sirolimus should have close monitoring of drug levels when on ivermectin given that interactions exist that can affect these levels. A longer list of drug interactions can be found on the drugs.com database, with nearly all interactions leading to a possibility of either increased or decreased blood levels of ivermectin. Given studies showing tolerance and lack of adverse effects in human subjects given escalating high doses of ivermectin, toxicity is unlikely, although a reduced efficacy because of decreased levels may be a concern.


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

FWIW, here's an article from the Cleveland Clinic about ivermectin. Yes, there is a human version of ivermectin. To quote the article: "However, ivermectin is available by prescription for people as well. It comes in oral and topical forms. These preparations have been approved by the U.S. Food & Drug Administration (FDA) and are used to treat parasitic roundworm infections like ascariasis, head lice and rosacea. They work by paralyzing and killing parasites." What roundworm infections, head lice, and rosacea have to do with COVID-19 is utterly beyond me.

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/why-you-shouldnt-take-animal-ivermectin-for-covid-19/

But people will probably go on taking animal Ivermectin, aquarium cleaners, bleach, "sunshine inserted into their bodies," and anything else they think up, as long as it isn't <horrors> the COVID vaccine. Or wearing <horrors> masks. And ending up in the ICU. So be it. Please do whatever you want. If you're intent on killing yourself, there really are easier ways to do so.

And now to "unwatch" this topic.

Hazel


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Evie RM said:


> If you look at the research in the links members have provided, your statement is not true. There is a difference between animal and human Ivermectin.
> 
> A large majority of randomized and observational controlled trials of ivermectin are reporting repeated, large magnitude improvements in clinical outcomes. Numerous prophylaxis trials demonstrate that regular ivermectin use leads to large reductions in transmission. Multiple, large "natural experiments" occurred in regions that initiated "ivermectin distribution" campaigns followed by tight, reproducible, temporally associated decreases in case counts and case fatality rates compared with nearby regions without such campaigns.
> 
> ...


Hey, feel free to call your vet and ask him to prescribe it to you! Ask him to to let you take it..better yet..go to your local ranch and farm store and just buy it. Unless of course they have pulled it off their shelves to stop stupid people from killing them selves..Like I said I am thru trying to convince people not to take anything prescribed to kill worms/parasites in large animals..so do it. There ya go, backing your right to kill yourself. I can look up poison controls number for you so you won't have to waste time doing it when you start vomiting up your guts...just let me know, I will post it for ya.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Evie RM said:


> If you look at the research in the links members have provided, your statement is not true. There is a difference between animal and human Ivermectin.
> 
> A large majority of randomized and observational controlled trials of ivermectin are reporting repeated, large magnitude improvements in clinical outcomes. Numerous prophylaxis trials demonstrate that regular ivermectin use leads to large reductions in transmission. Multiple, large "natural experiments" occurred in regions that initiated "ivermectin distribution" campaigns followed by tight, reproducible, temporally associated decreases in case counts and case fatality rates compared with nearby regions without such campaigns.
> 
> ...


How about YOU look at the information I found for ya? NOT approved by the FDA. Small test studies do not conclude it even works for Covid. I am wasting my time,you people TAKE it..go ahead, not my problem. I support your right to die. I support your right to take animal wormer, I defend your right to take human ivermectin...human dosage is not shown to improve anything covid related, so go ahead. You have all the confirmation you need. Just figure out the appropriate dosage, frequency of ingestion or best delivery method. CDC, FDA. do not promote this! PERIOD, NOT enough or large enough testing groups. but, hey...follow that medical advice above


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Hazel Blumberg - McKee said:


> FWIW, here's an article from the Cleveland Clinic about ivermectin. Yes, there is a human version of ivermectin. To quote the article: "However, ivermectin is available by prescription for people as well. It comes in oral and topical forms. These preparations have been approved by the U.S. Food & Drug Administration (FDA) and are used to treat parasitic roundworm infections like ascariasis, head lice and rosacea. They work by paralyzing and killing parasites." What roundworm infections, head lice, and rosacea have to do with COVID-19 is utterly beyond me.
> 
> https://health.clevelandclinic.org/why-you-shouldnt-take-animal-ivermectin-for-covid-19/
> 
> ...


Joining you, this is to the point of nonsense. Not true, ha..wonder if she read further. Just nuts. Let them eat Ivermectin


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## KnittingNut (Jan 19, 2011)

The problem with posting some of these links and medical posts, is that the people whom you are trying to convince can't understand the medical jargon, or are unable to get through lengthy wordy information. Know your audience. Truth is not reality for them, and conspiracy theories are easier to grasp. All of the hate and anger spewed out on social media by people who want to spread untrue informational nonsense. I don't know why other than it's an emotion that feels comfortable, controlling, divisive, and vengeful? Who/what to trust? Since rational thinking seems to be in short supply for these people, I say let them do what they must. Let the dust settle. Stop helping them cling desperately to their cause by trying to convince them. To think that they may, for an instant, think you care about their well-being? Impossible to grasp too. That would mean that we are a caring concerned community.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

fortunate1 said:


> How about YOU look at the information I found for ya? NOT approved by the FDA. Small test studies do not conclude it even works for Covid. I am wasting my time,you people TAKE it..go ahead, not my problem. I support your right to die. I support your right to take animal wormer, I defend your right to take human ivermectin...human dosage is not shown to improve anything covid related, so go ahead. You have all the confirmation you need. Just figure out the appropriate dosage, frequency of ingestion or best delivery method. CDC, FDA. do not promote this! PERIOD, NOT enough or large enough testing groups. but, hey...follow that medical advice above


Your comments are spot on, fortunate1.

What blows my mind is why anyone would even think to try this medication for treating COVID. Do they not know the difference between a parasite and a virus?


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

Evie RM said:


> If you look at the research in the links members have provided, your statement is not true. There is a difference between animal and human Ivermectin.
> 
> A large majority of randomized and observational controlled trials of ivermectin are reporting repeated, large magnitude improvements in clinical outcomes. Numerous prophylaxis trials demonstrate that regular ivermectin use leads to large reductions in transmission. Multiple, large "natural experiments" occurred in regions that initiated "ivermectin distribution" campaigns followed by tight, reproducible, temporally associated decreases in case counts and case fatality rates compared with nearby regions without such campaigns.
> 
> ...


 Have any of the studies you talk about been peer-reviewed? Are any of them double-blind studies? If double-blind, how large was the sample size?

I am looking over the website another poster provided that talks about Ivermectin studies with Covid-19: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/ . This is a website I trust. However, it is not enough to trust a website; I also have to look closely at the quality of the research.

All of this research information is titled "emerging evidence", which puts it at the very beginning stages of scientific research. This means no conclusions can be drawn, other than that this may be an avenue for further research to determine (1) if there is a cause-and-effect relationship, and (2) how this cause-and-effect is carried out in the body. At present, no one has put forth an explanation of the mechanism that would account for Ivermectin having an impact on the Covid virus. Lots of foods and drugs are anti-inflammatory and anti-viral, yet are not being touted as preventative for Covid.

The quality of the research is highly questionable. First of all, the large-population research (where governments handed out Ivermectin to their people) are unethical, in my opinion. That alone raises red flags over quality of information. If an institution is unethical enough to experiment on humans, it is unethical enough to falsify data. Not to mention that all of the large-scale studies have been conducted in countries that are not exactly well-known for the high quality of their medical research or their ethics. Also, many of these studies have flaws. In my opinion, the conclusions drawn by the authors of this study are not at all consistent with the quality of research they present. In other words, I doubt that this study would be accepted for publication in serious medical journals which require peer review.

Confirmation bias is a strong force in all of us. For people who want to believe there are good alternatives to vaccination, this kind of research (which most readers cannot fully comprehend in depth and detail) is persuasive.

Here is my take on this.

Vaccination is a well-known and well-established method for preventing the spread of disease. The Covid vaccine is not "an experimental drug". It operates along similar principles to other vaccines, in that its mechanism in the human body is pretty well understood. Some people think it was experimental because it was developed so quickly. It took 4 years to develop a mumps vaccine, but of course we did not have the benefit of genomic sequencing at that time, or the benefit of global sharing of information. There are plenty of websites that explain how we (in the United States) were able to develop the vaccine so quickly. This is actually the result of advancements in science. It is ironic that these advancements have had the paradoxical effect of making people suspicious.

There is a lot of data on both the effectiveness of the vaccine and the safety of the vaccine. This data was obtained in double-blind studies conducted in the U.S. that were peer-reviewed. There is also a lot of data available from Israel and the U.S. that compares both morbidity and mortality rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated people.

Vaccination involves risk analysis. If I look at the body of evidence available for Covid vaccination and weigh it against the body of evidence available for drugs such as Ivermectin, there is no question about which is the more solid evidence. My husband and I believe in stacking the odds in our favor when taking a calculated risk. Vaccination is clearly the least risky method of protecting ourselves from Covid-19 infection. People who do not get vaccinated are at much higher risk. Period.

And kudos to anyone who has had the patience to read through all this.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Your comments are spot on, fortunate1.
> 
> What blows my mind is why anyone would even think to try this medication for treating COVID.* Do they not know the difference between a parasite and a virus?*


Obviously, not at all.

How much do you want to bet that they insist on taking antibiotics when they have the sniffles? Not even antibiotics prescribed for themselves, but some leftover from their late aunt's last bout with a bacterial pneumonia, and long past their disposal date.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

fortunate1 said:


> Hey, feel free to call your vet and ask him to prescribe it to you! Ask him to to let you take it..better yet..go to your local ranch and farm store and just buy it. Unless of course they have pulled it off their shelves to stop stupid people from killing them selves..Like I said I am thru trying to convince people not to take anything prescribed to kill worms/parasites in large animals..so do it. There ya go, backing your right to kill yourself. I can look up poison controls number for you so you won't have to waste time doing it when you start vomiting up your guts...just let me know, I will post it for ya.


Are you really that dense? The prescription would come from your doctor, not a vet.


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

Evie RM said:


> Are you really that dense? The prescription would come from your doctor, not a vet.


 Just curious. If you called your doctor, would he recommend you get vaccinated against Covid, or would he recommend that you take Ivermectin?


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

Prism99 said:


> Have any of the studies you talk about been peer-reviewed? Are any of them double-blind studies? If double-blind, how large was the sample size?
> 
> I am looking over the website another poster provided that talks about Ivermectin studies with Covid-19: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/ . This is a website I trust. However, it is not enough to trust a website; I also have to look closely at the quality of the research.
> 
> ...


A vaccine is given to prevent the body from getting the virus. A drug like Ivermectin is given to treat a person who is infected with the virus. People who have had the virus are recovering and deaths are down among the people who are given Ivermectin according to the research that has been done.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

Prism99 said:


> Just curious. If you called your doctor, would he recommend you get vaccinated against Covid, or would he recommend that you take Ivermectin?


If I already had COVID, he might recommend Ivermectin as a "treatment".


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

Evie RM said:


> A vaccine is given to prevent the body from getting the virus. A drug like Ivermectin is given to treat a person who is infected with the virus. People who have had the virus are recovering and deaths are down among the people who are given Ivermectin according to the research that has been done.


 Ivermectin is being recommended as a prophylactic as well as a treatment. I am comparing vaccination to Ivermectin as a prophylactic. Treatment of Covid is a different issue, which I have not talked about. Here is the conclusion of the authors from the article in my previous post:

???????? ????????????????????????????, ???????????????????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????? ????????????????????????????/???????????? ????????????????-???????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????, ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ????????????????????-????????.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/

I think this is a rubbish conclusion. It is so overstated, I cannot imagine it being accepted for publication in any peer-reviewed journal of medicine.


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

Evie RM said:


> If I already had COVID, he might recommend Ivermectin as a "treatment".


 I doubt it, but you could call him/her and ask. Ivermectin is certainly not an FDA-approved treatment for Covid.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

Prism99 said:


> I doubt it, but you could call him/her and ask. Ivermectin is certainly not an FDA-approved treatment for Covid.


Until recently, the vaccines did not have FDA approval.


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## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

Evie RM said:


> If I already had COVID, he might recommend Ivermectin as a "treatment".


If he/she did/does, it would be a good idea to report him/her to the authorities and get a second opinion. In that order!


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Evie RM said:


> Are you really that dense? The prescription would come from your doctor, not a vet.


Ok, fine. I think most people would not get it from their vet, but...people are raiding farm and ranch supply to obtain it! Further more, ask your doctor about dosage, frequency and route. THEY do not know! Why, because it has no proof it freaking works! Ask him! The dosage, frequency and route, are established for HUMAN PARASITES! NOT VIRUS! Now who is dense!?


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

Evie RM said:


> Until recently, the vaccines did not have FDA approval.


 FDA approval had to wait for 6 months of data from double-blind studies in the U.S. that showed its usefulness. When Ivermectin has accumulated 6 months worth of data from double-blind studies in the U.S. that show its usefulness, it can be approved too.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

Prism99 said:


> FDA approval had to wait for 6 months of data from double-blind studies in the U.S. that showed its usefulness. When Ivermectin has accumulated 6 months worth of data from double-blind studies in the U.S. that show its usefulness, it can be approved too.


It looks like the countries where it is being used are way ahead of the USA.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Until further studies, and larger test groups have been established, no doctor worth his salt would prescribe this for humans to treat COVID. I can not do this, some people will believe what they believe no matter what you say, do or show them. 
I heard another one yesterday...I heard this first 12 years ago, then it died down, now it is back..again. There is going to be a huge war...stock up on non-perishable food, rice and beans things like that...build a bomb shelter. America will be destroyed. You have to prepare now, if you want to survive! Build up your water supply. I gave up trying to figure out what the heck they were talking about, or who was going to do this, or how long they thought they would have to be in this bomb shelter. Face slap...the other one, which is actually from a book, but now people are saying it is true...when world leaders need an excuse to all be in one place at the same time, without raising eye brows, another world leader is assassinated. It allows the other leaders to meet and plan. It is from a book, I read it...but people are now throwing it around as fact...some people are too stupid to waste time on....


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Evie RM said:


> Until recently, the vaccines did not have FDA approval.


The vaccines certainly DID have FDA approval.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

DGreen said:


> The vaccines certainly DID have FDA approval.


They did not have FDA approval when they first came out. It is only recently the the FDA is approving them one at a time.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-apha-ashp-statement-ending-use-ivermectin-treat-covid-19 Directly from the AMA!


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/american-medical-association-calls-for-immediate-end-to-use-of-ivermectin-for-covid-19/ar-AAO1vjt


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/public-health/why-ivermectin-should-not-be-used-prevent-or-treat-covid-19


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Evie RM said:


> They did not have FDA approval when they first came out. It is only recently the the FDA is approving them one at a time.


Emergency approval is still approval.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

My goodness..imagine the FDA and AMA both stating not to take this crap. Do what ever blows your skirt up. Call YOUR doctor, Ask them if it can be used. I have asked mine, and he thought I had lost my ever lovin mind! I asked in August. Face to face in office.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Emergency approval is still approval.


Not true. They first gave "Emergency Use Authorization", not approval.

What's the difference between full FDA Approval and Emergency Use Authorization?

Full approval represents the FDA's highest level of confidence in a drug's safety and effectiveness.

Full FDA approval takes longer than Emergency Use Authorization (EUA). More data needs to be processed and reviewed over a longer period of time. When the FDA fully approves a product, patients can be sure the approval is based on large amounts of scientific data.

In some emergencies, the FDA issues an EUA to give access to critical medical products because no approved products are available. This has been the case with the COVID-19 public health emergency, which is why vaccines were first available under an EUA.


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

Evie RM said:


> It looks like the countries where it is being used are way ahead of the USA.


 Here is the research report I am looking at.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/

You seriously believe that countries such as Egypt, Bangladesh, Brazil, Peru, Paraguay, Nigeria, Iraq, the Dominican Republic, et. al. are way ahead of the USA?

This topic is interesting, but I need to move on.


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

Evie RM said:


> Not true. They first gave "Emergency Use Authorization", not approval.
> 
> What's the difference between full FDA Approval and Emergency Use Authorization?
> 
> ...


 You do know that Emergency Use Authorization requires 3 months of double-blind data, right?


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

Prism99 said:


> You do know that Emergency Use Authorization requires 3 months of double-blind data, right?


Still not the same as "approval".


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Prism99 said:


> Ivermectin is being recommended as a prophylactic as well as a treatment. I am comparing vaccination to Ivermectin as a prophylactic. Treatment of Covid is a different issue, which I have not talked about. Here is the conclusion of the authors from the article in my previous post:
> 
> ???????? ????????????????????????????, ???????????????????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????? ????????????????????????????/???????????? ????????????????-???????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????, ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ????????????????????-????????.
> 
> ...


I agree, that is rubbish.

Out of curiosity, I followed the link and also looked up information on the organizations cited in the post.

First of all, the ncbi is the equivalent of a library. Publication on their website does NOT imply approval of any sort. Their site has a very clear disclaimer about the articles posted:

_"This disclaimer relates to PubMed, PubMed Central (PMC), and Bookshelf. These three resources are scientific literature databases offered to the public by the U.S. National Library of Medicine (NLM). NLM is not a publisher, but rather collects, indexes, and archives scientific literature published by other organizations. The presence of any article, book, or document in these databases does not imply an endorsement of, or concurrence with, the contents by NLM, the National Institutes of Health (NIH), or the U.S. Federal Government.

Once publications are selected for inclusion in a database, NLM does not review, evaluate, or judge the quality of individual articles and relies on the scientific publishing process to identify and address problems through published comments, corrections, and retractions (or, as in the case of preprints, withdrawal notices)."_

Citing inclusion in their database cannot be taken as validation of any study.

I then looked up "the international BIRD conference." What a joke. The "conference" I found was a ZOOM meeting, and none of the participants were identified, nor did it list their credentials. BIRD stands for "British Invermectin Recommendation Development." Their website does detail credentials, such as they are. Many are not even health profesionals, and others are in general medical practice with no claim to know anything about research. There are a couple of dermatologists and one expert in dementia. The leader of the group is not in the medical field at all, but is affiliated with some "community interest" company. Here is the roster, if you wish to see for yourself who "BIRD" is: https://bird-group.org/who-are-bird/

And then this, from WHO: "After updating the independent living network meta-analysis, the WHO Guidelines Development Group has updated the WHO Living Guidelines: Therapeutics and COVID-19 (today March 31). In this updated version, *WHO recommends not to use ivermectin in patients with COVID-19 *except in the context of clinical trials based on very low certainty of evidence."

My opinion: Those who believe Invermectin has been "proven" effective are the same people who cry, "Fake news" when proven wrong. It's not difficult in today's world to find some, or even many, wingnuts to cite as references. That does not make them credible. Anyone can invent a "consortium" and give it an acronym that will impress the gullible. Again, having an impressive-sounding name doesn't mean crap (you may substitute your own word for "crap" here).


----------



## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Evie RM said:


> It looks like the countries where it is being used are way ahead of the USA.


Please list the countries and verifiable supporting documentation from reputable sources. McMaster university cancelled a study early. See attached:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/30/health/covid-ivermectin-prescriptions.html

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/mcmaster-university

https://brighterworld.mcmaster.ca/articles/dna-researchers-develop-critical-shortcut-to-detect-and-identify-known-and-emerging-pathogens/


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Evie RM said:


> Not true. They first gave "Emergency Use Authorization", not approval.
> 
> What's the difference between full FDA Approval and Emergency Use Authorization?
> 
> ...


The important fact is that Full FDA Approval has now been granted. " More data needs to be processed and reviewed over a longer period of time. When the FDA fully approves a product, patients can be sure the approval is based on large amounts of scientific data."----* DONE*


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

Granny41 said:


> Please list the countries and verifiable supporting documentation from reputable sources. McMaster university cancelled a study early. See attached:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/30/health/covid-ivermectin-prescriptions.html
> 
> https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/mcmaster-university
> 
> https://brighterworld.mcmaster.ca/articles/dna-researchers-develop-critical-shortcut-to-detect-and-identify-known-and-emerging-pathogens/


Iran, Bangladesh, India, Mexico, Brazil

History of ivermectin
In 1975, Professor Satoshi Omura at the Kitsato institute in Japan isolated an unusual Streptomyces bacterium from the soil near a golf course along the southeast coast of Honshu, Japan. Omura, along with William Campbell, found that the bacterial culture could cure mice infected with the roundworm Heligmosomoides polygyrus. Campbell isolated the active compounds from the bacterial culture, naming them "avermectins" and the bacterium S. avermitilis for the compounds' ability to clear mice of worms.7 Despite decades of searching around the world, the Japanese microorganism remains the only source of avermectin ever found. Ivermectin, a derivative of avermectin, then proved revolutionary. Originally introduced as a veterinary drug, it soon made historic impacts in human health, improving the nutrition, general health, and well-being of billions of people worldwide ever since it was first used to treat onchocerciasis (river blindness) in humans in 1988. It proved ideal in many ways, given that it was highly effective, broad-spectrum, safe, well tolerated, and could be easily administered.7 Although it was used to treat a variety of internal nematode infections, it was most known as the essential mainstay of 2 global disease elimination campaigns that has nearly eliminated the world of two of its most disfiguring and devastating diseases. The unprecedented partnership between Merck & Co. Inc, and the Kitasato Institute combined with the aid of international health care organizations has been recognized by many experts as one of the greatest medical accomplishments of the 20th century. One example was the decision by Merck & Co to donate ivermectin doses to support the Mectizan Donation Program that then provided more than 570 million treatments in its first 20 years alone.8 Ivermectin's impacts in controlling onchocerciasis and lymphatic filariasis, diseases which blighted the lives of billions of the poor and disadvantaged throughout the tropics, is why its discoverers were awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine in 2015 and the reason for its inclusion on the World Health Organization's (WHO) "List of Essential Medicines." Furthermore, it has also been used to successfully overcome several other human diseases and new uses for it are continually being found.7

Link to studies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Evie RM said:


> Iran, Bangladesh, India, Mexico, Brazil
> 
> History of ivermectin
> In 1975, Professor Satoshi Omura at the Kitsato institute in Japan isolated an unusual Streptomyces bacterium from the soil near a golf course along the southeast coast of Honshu, Japan. Omura, along with William Campbell, found that the bacterial culture could cure mice infected with the roundworm Heligmosomoides polygyrus. Campbell isolated the active compounds from the bacterial culture, naming them "avermectins" and the bacterium S. avermitilis for the compounds' ability to clear mice of worms.7 Despite decades of searching around the world, the Japanese microorganism remains the only source of avermectin ever found. Ivermectin, a derivative of avermectin, then proved revolutionary. Originally introduced as a veterinary drug, it soon made historic impacts in human health, improving the nutrition, general health, and well-being of billions of people worldwide ever since it was first used to treat onchocerciasis (river blindness) in humans in 1988. It proved ideal in many ways, given that it was highly effective, broad-spectrum, safe, well tolerated, and could be easily administered.7 Although it was used to treat a variety of internal nematode infections, it was most known as the essential mainstay of 2 global disease elimination campaigns that has nearly eliminated the world of two of its most disfiguring and devastating diseases. The unprecedented partnership between Merck & Co. Inc, and the Kitasato Institute combined with the aid of international health care organizations has been recognized by many experts as one of the greatest medical accomplishments of the 20th century. One example was the decision by Merck & Co to donate ivermectin doses to support the Mectizan Donation Program that then provided more than 570 million treatments in its first 20 years alone.8 Ivermectin's impacts in controlling onchocerciasis and lymphatic filariasis, diseases which blighted the lives of billions of the poor and disadvantaged throughout the tropics, is why its discoverers were awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine in 2015 and the reason for its inclusion on the World Health Organization's (WHO) "List of Essential Medicines." Furthermore, it has also been used to successfully overcome several other human diseases and new uses for it are continually being found.7
> ...


*Pre-clinical studies * in Iran, Bangladesh, India, Mexico and Brazil. All *renown centres * hubs of medical research. :sm16:


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## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

Evie RM said:


> Iran, Bangladesh, India, Mexico, Brazil
> 
> History of ivermectin
> In 1975, Professor Satoshi Omura at the Kitsato institute in Japan isolated an unusual Streptomyces bacterium from the soil near a golf course along the southeast coast of Honshu, Japan. Omura, along with William Campbell, found that the bacterial culture could cure mice infected with the roundworm Heligmosomoides polygyrus. Campbell isolated the active compounds from the bacterial culture, naming them "avermectins" and the bacterium S. avermitilis for the compounds' ability to clear mice of worms.7 Despite decades of searching around the world, the Japanese microorganism remains the only source of avermectin ever found. Ivermectin, a derivative of avermectin, then proved revolutionary. Originally introduced as a veterinary drug, it soon made historic impacts in human health, improving the nutrition, general health, and well-being of billions of people worldwide ever since it was first used to treat onchocerciasis (river blindness) in humans in 1988. It proved ideal in many ways, given that it was highly effective, broad-spectrum, safe, well tolerated, and could be easily administered.7 Although it was used to treat a variety of internal nematode infections, it was most known as the essential mainstay of 2 global disease elimination campaigns that has nearly eliminated the world of two of its most disfiguring and devastating diseases. The unprecedented partnership between Merck & Co. Inc, and the Kitasato Institute combined with the aid of international health care organizations has been recognized by many experts as one of the greatest medical accomplishments of the 20th century. One example was the decision by Merck & Co to donate ivermectin doses to support the Mectizan Donation Program that then provided more than 570 million treatments in its first 20 years alone.8 Ivermectin's impacts in controlling onchocerciasis and lymphatic filariasis, diseases which blighted the lives of billions of the poor and disadvantaged throughout the tropics, is why its discoverers were awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine in 2015 and the reason for its inclusion on the World Health Organization's (WHO) "List of Essential Medicines." Furthermore, it has also been used to successfully overcome several other human diseases and new uses for it are continually being found.7
> ...


See DGreen's post above for the veracity of this source! Zilch!


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

spins2knit said:


> See DGreen's post above for the veracity of this source! Zilch!


he evidence base for ivermectin against COVID-19
To date, the efficacy of ivermectin in COVID-19 has been supported by the following:

Since 2012, multiple in vitro studies have demonstrated that Ivermectin inhibits the replication of many viruses, including influenza, Zika, Dengue, and others.9-17
Ivermectin inhibits SARS-CoV-2 replication and binding to host tissue through several observed and proposed mechanisms.18
Ivermectin has potent anti-inflammatory properties with in vitro data demonstrating profound inhibition of both cytokine production and transcription of nuclear factor-κB (NF-κB), the most potent mediator of inflammation.37-39
Ivermectin significantly diminishes viral load and protects against organ damage in multiple animal models when infected with SARS-CoV-2 or similar coronaviruses.31,32
Ivermectin prevents transmission and development of COVID-19 disease in those exposed to infected patients.40-45
Ivermectin hastens recovery and prevents deterioration in patients with mild to moderate disease treated early after symptoms.45,49-52,61,62
Ivermectin hastens recovery and avoidance of ICU admission and death in hospitalized patients.45,51,53,63-66
Ivermectin reduces mortality in critically ill patients with COVID-19.45,53,63
Ivermectin leads to temporally associated reductions in case fatality rates in regions after ivermectin distribution campaigns.48
The safety, availability, and cost of ivermectin are nearly unparalleled given its low incidence of important drug interactions along with only mild and rare side effects observed in almost 40 years of use and billions of doses administered.75
The World Health Organization has long included ivermectin on its "List of Essential Medicines."

controlled trials in the prophylaxis of COVID-19 (8 studies)

All 8 available controlled trial results show statistically significant reductions in transmission.
Three RCTs with large statistically significant reductions in transmission rates, N = 774 patients.44-46
Five OCTs with large statistically significant reductions in transmission rates, N = 2052 patients.40-43,47
Controlled trials in the treatment of COVID-19 (19 studies)

Five RCTs with statistically significant impacts in time to recovery or hospital length of stay.45,49,53,64,65
One RCT with a near statistically significant decrease in time to recovery, P = 0.07, N = 130.54
One RCT with a large, statistically significant reduction in the rate of deterioration or hospitalization, N = 363.49
Two RCTs with a statistically significant decrease in viral load, days of anosmia, and cough, N = 85.57,60
Three RCTs with large, statistically significant reductions in mortality (N = 695).45,60,65
One RCT with a near statistically significant reduction in mortality, P = 0.052 (N = 140).53
Three OCTs with large, statistically significant reductions in mortality (N = 1688).51,63,66


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

Price on Brussells, they were over $4 a pound here last week and of course I have stopped growing them now..We will need a mortgage for our greens soon, well I guess the kids will like that.


Jessica-Jean said:


> No problem. My husband steams up some every time he deems the price good.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

Hazel your reply made me think..I belive even the Selma to Montgomery march did not block the road. Gee I so much would have loved to go on that one. Why does almost everything have to turn back to race..it beats me.

One day the hate has to stop. People first

When I see the pictures on Jan 6.. the word that comes to my mind is thugs. I believe everyone has the right to protest what they believe is wrong , and I would carry a banner for their rights to do so,even if I didn't agree withtheir cause, but to do it by killing, looting or intimidation is so much more wrong.


Hazel Blumberg - McKee said:


> I don't think that's happened in quite a long time. And you write that you "think" "one time a part of the freeway was closed because of protestors." Was it, or was it not, closed? And blocking a roadway briefly isn't the same as blocking the way into a hospital. I would hope that the BLM protesters, and all other protesters regarding _any_ cause, would let an ambulance, a fire truck, an emergency vehicle through. If not, then that's when there are problems.
> 
> And why single out BLM protesters, anyway? What about the "protesters" who, on January 6, attempted to overthrow the legitimate government of the US by storming, destroying, stealing from, defecating in the US Capitol? What the January 6 terrorists (yes, let's call them what they were: terrorists armed with guns and other weapons who beat up police) did was sedition and treason, high crimes and misdemeanors.
> 
> Hazel


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

Oh my goodness JJ spot on, my friend took what was left of her Labradors anti biotic,,mm I think we may have gone full circle now. I might just go in my vetty box and see what I have, I could probably make a packet on Craigs list maybe.

Shaking my head here, What worries me is that there are so many many folks out there that don't understand, or their English is not good, their mental health may be dodgy and they listen and often take what they see as the easy way..



Jessica-Jean said:


> Obviously, not at all.
> 
> How much do you want to bet that they insist on taking antibiotics when they have the sniffles? Not even antibiotics prescribed for themselves, but some leftover from their late aunt's last bout with a bacterial pneumonia, and long past their disposal date.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

Re vaxx. Does anyone remember the AIDS start. I do and they were crying out for a vax and a treatment. Some had been made but not passed and the AIDS victims begged for it, may were prepared to be guinea pigs rather than die a horrific death.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

For the Love of Shetland said:


> Hazel your reply made me think..I belive even the Selma to Montgomery march did not block the road. Gee I so much would have loved to go on that one. Why does almost everything have to turn back to race..it beats me.
> 
> One day the hate has to stop. People first
> 
> When I see the pictures on Jan 6.. the word that comes to my mind is thugs. I believe everyone has the right to protest what they believe is wrong , and I would carry a banner for their rights to do so,even if I didn't agree withtheir cause, but to do it by killing, looting or intimidation is so much more wrong.


I'm fairly sure that you noticed that all but a couple of the insurrectionists were angry white men. Those who feel threatened by * the other*.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

In self quarantine. Just informed my cousin is positive for Covid. I have been around them at least once or twice a week forever. Sent a note to my doctor. Thank God I have been vaccinated. I have been coughing up stuff and my nose is running or plugged all the time. Not feeling bad, I cleaned all day today, and did the laundry, so...I am waiting to hear back from doctor. If cousin has it, I am sure I do. He has had no symptoms. Hey!! Maybe he will give me the wonder drug!! Not a chance in hell...


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

O eck, what a blow, I so hope you and your cousin recover quickly and I feel certain nobody is going to offer you pig wormer to do it. Take care, do as you are told, stay warm, drink lots and be well. Stay in touch if you can. XX Jeannine


fortunate1 said:


> In self quarantine. Just informed my cousin is positive for Covid. I have been around them at least once or twice a week forever. Sent a note to my doctor. Thank God I have been vaccinated. I have been coughing up stuff and my nose is running or plugged all the time. Not feeling bad, I cleaned all day today, and did the laundry, so...I am waiting to hear back from doctor. If cousin has it, I am sure I do. He has had no symptoms. Hey!! Maybe he will give me the wonder drug!! Not a chance in hell...


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Evie RM said:


> he evidence base for ivermectin against COVID-19
> To date, the efficacy of ivermectin in COVID-19 has been supported by the following:
> 
> Since 2012, multiple in vitro studies have demonstrated that Ivermectin inhibits the replication of many viruses, including influenza, Zika, Dengue, and others.9-17
> ...


This only proves that you can copy and paste.

Care to explain this data?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Evie RM said:


> Not true. They first gave "Emergency Use Authorization", not approval.
> 
> What's the difference between full FDA Approval and Emergency Use Authorization?
> 
> ...


Splitting hairs, but ok. I'll give you a point.

In the meantime, millions have been vaccinated and the results have been undeniable - the vaccines are safe and highly effective.They made the right call to authorize its use.

The vaccines have absolutely been proven to save lives.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

For the Love of Shetland said:


> O eck, what a blow, I so hope you and your cousin recover quickly and I feel certain nobody is going to offer you pig wormer to do it. Take care, do as you are told, stay warm, drink lots and be well. Stay in touch if you can. XX Jeannine


I feel fine. If he had not had to be tested before his colonoscopy we would never have known. I did start to wonder about the cough, but it is not a dry cough, the nose stuff, I thought was either a cold or from the smoke. I have a feeling doctor will want me tested just for the numbers if nothing else. Record of positive cases. I suggested cousin get re tested, sometimes you get a false positive. I have lots of stuff to keep me busy, crafts, yarn, dog..yard. A lot to do. Yeah I did not see pig wormer in my future either..my doctor is smart, and the ranch and farm supply has pulled it off the shelves, I do think he may want me on a steroid if I test positive because of the lung issue, and I had pneumonia in the sac around my heart a few years ago, which almost killed me. Hospital for over a week..and home on O2. I will be on and off. Thank you for your kindness!


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Once I learned it didn't need to be cooked to complete limpness, I began liking broccoli, and a whole lot of other veggies I hadn't before. My grandmother really wasn't the best of cooks. She preferred canned to fresh, and even those she boiled to death. Frozen could have been good, had she not insisted on boiling them so long. I have no idea who - if anyone - taught her to cook vegetables. If they weren't boiled into submission, they were fried in an inch of Crisco. Ugh!
> Steaming was beyond her ken.


I dislike broccoli due to it
gives me too much gas.
I get bad stomach cramps.
Plus the music from both ends.


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## peppered (May 16, 2014)

fortunate1 said:


> So, if you want to take it..do it. If you are afraid of the vaccine..this stuff should scare you out a years sleep. IT is not approved by the FDA! Overdose is easy to do. The med you get from a vet is meant for animals of bigger body mass..it will and can kill you!
> I can not understand why anyone would tout a medication that is not approved, but will not take a vaccine, that has been. Senseless. I am thro trying to convince non critical thinkers, to avoid killing themselves. Above my pay grade...so take it. Call your vet tomorrow.


Why would anybody call the vet?
Ivermectin is used in humans! It's been used for decades in humans!!!!
And it is used in many countries to help with covid due to strong anti inflammatory properties!
Are you that dense? Not seeing it? Not reading about it? YES, people ARE stupid b/c they don't research things before they use. It is matter of proper dosage but b/c they are so stupid they can't comprehend it!

Many drugs are used of label and if Ivomec helps, why not use it! Did you know Thailand approved herb to help with covid inflammation?


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## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

Evie RM said:


> he evidence base for ivermectin against COVID-19
> To date, the efficacy of ivermectin in COVID-19 has been supported by the following:
> 
> Since 2012, multiple in vitro studies have demonstrated that Ivermectin inhibits the replication of many viruses, including influenza, Zika, Dengue, and others.9-17
> ...


Here is information from the WHO about Ivermectin and Covid:

"WHO advises that ivermectin only be used to treat COVID-19 within clinical trials

WHO advises that ivermectin only be used to treat COVID-19 within clinical trials
31 March 2021

The current evidence on the use of ivermectin to treat COVID-19 patients is inconclusive. Until more data is available, WHO recommends that the drug only be used within clinical trials.

This recommendation, which applies to patients with COVID-19 of any disease severity, is now part of WHO's guidelines on COVID-19 treatments.

Ivermectin is a broad spectrum anti-parasitic agent, included in WHO essential medicines list for several parasitic diseases. It is used in the treatment of onchocerciasis (river blindness), strongyloidiasis and other diseases caused by soil transmitted helminthiasis. It is also used to treat scabies.

A guideline development group was convened in response to the increased international attention on ivermectin as a potential treatment for COVID-19. This group is an independent, international panel of experts, which includes clinical care experts in multiple specialties and also include an ethicist and patient-partners.

The group reviewed pooled data from 16 randomized controlled trials (total enrolled 2407), including both inpatients and outpatients with COVID-19. They determined that the evidence on whether ivermectin reduces mortality, need for mechanical ventilation, need for hospital admission and time to clinical improvement in COVID-19 patients is of "very low certainty," due to the small sizes and methodological limitations of available trial data, including small number of events.

The panel did not look at the use of ivermectin to prevent COVID-19, which is outside of scope of the current guidelines."

So the use of Ivermectin in reference to the "list of essential medicines" has nothing to do with the treatment of Covid.


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## peppered (May 16, 2014)

Evie RM said:


> If you look at the research in the links members have provided, your statement is not true. There is a difference between animal and human Ivermectin.
> 
> A large majority of randomized and observational controlled trials of ivermectin are reporting repeated, large magnitude improvements in clinical outcomes. Numerous prophylaxis trials demonstrate that regular ivermectin use leads to large reductions in transmission. Multiple, large "natural experiments" occurred in regions that initiated "ivermectin distribution" campaigns followed by tight, reproducible, temporally associated decreases in case counts and case fatality rates compared with nearby regions without such campaigns.
> 
> ...


Thank you for writing this!
People judge links I posted but the info about Ivermectin is all over internet and if people would just go and read and research, maybe they would stop being so close minded.


----------



## peppered (May 16, 2014)

Prism99 said:


> Have any of the studies you talk about been peer-reviewed? Are any of them double-blind studies? If double-blind, how large was the sample size?
> 
> I am looking over the website another poster provided that talks about Ivermectin studies with Covid-19: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/ . This is a website I trust. However, it is not enough to trust a website; I also have to look closely at the quality of the research.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, the covid jab is studied enough. And I am a virgin Mary! But glad to see to have voluntary quinea pigs!


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## peppered (May 16, 2014)

Prism99 said:


> Just curious. If you called your doctor, would he recommend you get vaccinated against Covid, or would he recommend that you take Ivermectin?


Our doctor is against the vaccine. But they give it to people who wants it. And yes, he would give me Ivermectin.


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## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

peppered said:


> Thank you for writing this!
> People judge links I posted but the info about Ivermectin is all over internet and if people would just go and read and research, maybe they would stop being so close minded.


Let's start out by posting information and sources that are not fly by night or partially completed data. Here is one in reference to Ivermectin:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/05/us/ivermectin-health-experts.html?.?mc=aud_dev&ad-keywords=auddevgate&gclid=Cj0KCQjw1ouKBhC5ARIsAHXNMI-VkjxgrnlBznDmjABq3XOwLQcJWyK887sarbo1qrOlHl2aYnjNz1YaAkrtEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds


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## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

peppered said:


> Oh yeah, the covid jab is studied enough. And I am a virgin Mary! But glad to see to have voluntary quinea pigs!


Please reference one major medical institution such as Mayo, Johns Hopkins, etc. that recommends Ivermectin or does not recommend the vaccine for covid.


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## peppered (May 16, 2014)

quilter said:


> Let's start out by posting information and sources that are not fly by night or partially completed data. Here is one in reference to Ivermectin:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/05/us/ivermectin-health-experts.html?.?mc=aud_dev&ad-keywords=auddevgate&gclid=Cj0KCQjw1ouKBhC5ARIsAHXNMI-VkjxgrnlBznDmjABq3XOwLQcJWyK887sarbo1qrOlHl2aYnjNz1YaAkrtEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds


I can't read this unless I sign up. I used up my free reading.

Seems that lots of poor countries have great results using Ivermectin.
Maybe greed has something to do with not recommending it?

Just like the Bromhexine and Ambroxol I use when I get bronchitis. It is available all over the world without prescription!
But USA does not have it. Patent expired, no money to be made. It works great and it is cheap.

I used both when I had bad covid and later I found out it is used in several countries to help with covid lungs to help breathe. 
For what I know, it stopped me from dying when I couldn't breath!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

peppered said:


> Oh yeah, the covid jab is studied enough. And I am a virgin Mary! But glad to see to have voluntary quinea pigs!


You should be very thankful to those "human guinea pigs" for clinical trials on all sorts of drugs. How do you think researchers get their data on human responses and outcomes for new medicines?

They get it from humans who voluntarily agree to be treated with experimental drugs. Presumably, they are fully informed of the potential benefits and risks, but the bottom line is they have to trust the researchers and the science. Few people are genuinely capable of evaluating the risks involved in preliminary trials based on their own education or knowledge. You're one of them, unless you have advanced degrees we don't know about.

As for your personal decision on whether to get the vaccine? If you continue to doubt whether it is safe after millions of doses and proven efficacy, that's your problem. If you get sick and die? Still your problem. Just stay away from the rest of us.


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## peppered (May 16, 2014)

DGreen said:


> You should be very thankful to those "human guinea pigs" for clinical trials on all sorts of drugs. How do you think researchers get their data on human responses and outcomes for new medicines?
> 
> They get it from humans who voluntarily agree to be treated with experimental drugs. Presumably, they are fully informed of the potential benefits and risks, but the bottom line is they have to trust the researchers and the science. Few people are genuinely capable of evaluating the risks involved in preliminary trials based on their own education or knowledge. You're one of them, unless you have advanced degrees we don't know about.
> 
> As for your personal decision on whether to get the vaccine? If you continue to doubt whether it is safe after millions of doses and proven efficacy, that's your problem. If you get sick and die? Still your problem. Just stay away from the rest of us.


I had covid! So do you want to argue who's immunity might be better or longer lasting?
Lots of info on it online too!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

peppered said:


> I had covid! So do you want to argue who's immunity might be better or longer lasting?
> Lots of info on it online too!


Online information is not necessarily valid. But, you believe what you want to believe.


----------



## peppered (May 16, 2014)

DGreen said:


> Online information is not necessarily valid. But, you believe what you want to believe.


I guess talking to 3 doctors means nothing either.


----------



## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

peppered said:


> I can't read this unless I sign up. I used up my free reading.
> 
> Seems that lots of poor countries have great results using Ivermectin.
> Maybe greed has something to do with not recommending it?
> ...


Both are expectorants and Bromhexine is available on Amazon. Similar to Mucinex DM. We have thousands of drugs available to us many of which have expired patents, none of them proven to prevent covid. If third world countries don't have the vaccine, they will try anything to save people's lives, as they should. It does not mean they cure or prevent covid. Take what you like but, it seems you spend a lot of time doing everything but back the vaccine which has the best, proven track record.


----------



## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

peppered said:


> I guess talking to 3 doctors means nothing either.


It means nothing unless you are willing to list their names and the medical institution in which they work. I would doubt any reputable medical institution would agree with taking Ivermectin and not getting the vaccine. Feel free to list them. The last person who listed the doctors showed, upon research, the doctors were biologists, one got her Doctorate on frog studies the other on evolutionary biology. They make their money on podcasts.


----------



## peppered (May 16, 2014)

quilter said:


> Both are expectorants and Bromhexine is available on Amazon. Similar to Mucinex DM. We have thousands of drugs available to us many of which have expired patents, none of them proven to prevent covid. If third world countries don't have the vaccine, they will try anything to save people's lives, as they should. It does not mean they cure or prevent covid. Take what you like but, it seems you spend a lot of time doing everything but back the vaccine which has the best, proven track record.


I use Bromhexine since I was about 12 so I always keep some on hand b/c it works. I gave it away to people with COPD, smokers.
Amazon really doesn't have it.
It is not to treat covid but help symptoms! And it stops the covid cough!!!!
I am not against vaccines but this is not vaccine as we know it, and it makes lots of people sick and dead which is another subject.....


----------



## peppered (May 16, 2014)

quilter said:


> It means nothing unless you are willing to list their names and the medical institution in which they work. I would doubt any reputable medical institution would agree with taking Ivermectin and not getting the vaccine. Feel free to list them. The last person who listed the doctors showed, upon research, the doctors were biologists, one got her Doctorate on frog studies the other on evolutionary biology. They make their money on podcasts.


I am not a snitch. I know people like you would like to report anything and anybody that does not agree with you.
There is plenty of doctors and people who does not go with this vaccine BS.

I still believe in freedom of choice and I do what is best for me when it comes to health.


----------



## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

DGreen said:


> Online information is not necessarily valid. But, you believe what you want to believe.


Anti bodies begin to wan as early as 3 months, with almost no immunity at 10 months. My GS had it several months ago. His doctor checked his immunity. he was good, he called him back at 3 months, antibodies were down, we will wait for his 10 month, but prediction is almost or no immunity. My GS is part of a study group. If his antibodies are zilch at 10 months, they will administer the vaccine. The others in the study, were given the vaccine at one month after testing negative..their immune system is better at his point than my GS is. I get NAAT tomorrow. Oh, another thing..people think if you have already had covid you will test positive even after you are recovered. Try explaining that you are still have covid until you have a negative test. Sheesh, to many swarming our planet to even consider trying to educate them. CDC, AMA, Who, all better resources than google..


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Remember years and years ago..when people did what America asked of them...the GREATEST GENERATION? Now we are a nation of me, me, me...not a nation of us, we, but just me! Wonder what numbers would have reached during the Spanish flu, if Americans did as they are now. I hate to imagine. We all have freedom of choicetI choose to do what I feel is best for the people next door, or down the street, the elderly, the young now getting covid. I choose, to do what I can to curb the spread. Why, because, my country asked me to. I chose not to possibly be the cause a young mother dies from covid, that a husband becomes a single father, because his wife died from covid, I chose not to be the reason...why...because I care, I care about every life..wow, imagine..someone cares about people I don't even know. 
America has asked me to help stop the spread of the virus, by doing simple acts..masks, vaccines, had washing, social distancing..not so hard. So, now I have been exposed, by a family member that refused the vaccine, gave it to her parents, that I help every week two or three days a week. She thought she was fine, then got cold symptoms, swore it was a cold, stayed away for 10 days...sadly she had covid..3 - 10 day incubation ...so before she got her cold, she exposed them..then I unknowingly continued to help them. Altho they are vaccinated, they tested positive yesterday...no symptoms...for 3 days, I have had a cough, and my nose is either running or plugged, no fever, but sweating profusely. I contacted my doc, now I get the NAAT, he also had me fill out a form for CDC. CDC found me at high risk due to smoking and past history of sac pneumonia. Guess if I won't be smoking if I can't leave my house to get them. Which is a good thing, force me to quit.


----------



## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

Excerpts from https://fortune.com/2021/09/02/ivermectin-covid-why-demand-is-surging/

???????????? ????????????'???????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????????????? ???????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????. ???????? ???????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????, ???????????? ???????????????? ???? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????-????????, ???????? ???? ????????????????????????????-???????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????? ???????? ???? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????, ???????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????? ????????????????????????????????????.
..........
???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ????????????????????????????, ???? ???????????????????????????????? ???????? ????????????????'???? ???????????????????????????? ????????????????????????, ???????????? ???? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ????????????????'???? ???????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????, ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????, ???????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ????????????????????.

"???????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ????????????????????????-???????????????????????????????? ???????? ????????????????????????????: ????????????????????????????????????????????????????. ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????????? (???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????? ????) ???????????????? ???????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????, ???????? ???????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ????.????. ???????? ????.????. ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????? ????????????????????," ???????? ???????????????????? ???????? ???? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????. "???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????? ???????? ???????????????? ????????????????????, ???????????????????? ????????????????????, ???????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ????????????????????????????????????, ???????????? ???????? ????????. ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ????????????????????????: ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????? ???? ????????????????????-???????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????, ???????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ????????????'???? ????????????????????????."

???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????? ???????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????, ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ???????? ????????????????-???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????? ???????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????.

Also of interest:
https://www.britannica.com/contributor/Bettina-J-Casad/9782917

???????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????, ???????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????? ????????????, ???????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????, ???????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ????????????'???? ???????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????. ???????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????. ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????? ????????????'???? ???????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???? ???????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????? ???? ???????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????. ???????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ????????????????-????????????????????????????????.

https://www.britannica.com/science/Dunning-Kruger-effect

????????????????????????????-???????????????????????? ????????????????????????, ???????? ????????????????????????????????????????, ???? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???? ???????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????? ???????????????????? ???????? ???????? ???????????????????????? ???????? ????????????????????????????. ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ???????? ???????? ????????????????????, ???????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????? ????????????????????????, ???????????? ???????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ????????????'???? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????? ???? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ????????????????????????????????????????, ???????????????????? ???????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ????????????????????????????????. ???????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????, ???????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ????????????????????????????????????, ???????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????? "???????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????? ????????????????????????." ???????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ????????????????????????????, ???????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ????????????????, ???????????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????? ????????????????????????????-????.????., "???? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???? ???????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????"-???????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????? ????????????????-????.????., "???????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ????????????????????????????????????" (???????????????????????????? ????????????????????????).


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Prism99 said:


> Excerpts from https://fortune.com/2021/09/02/ivermectin-covid-why-demand-is-surging/
> 
> ???????????? ????????????'???????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????????????? ???????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????. ???????? ???????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????, ???????????? ???????????????? ???? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????-????????, ???????? ???? ????????????????????????????-???????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????? ???????? ???? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????, ???????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????? ????????????????????????????????????.
> ..........
> ...


In other words, trying to convince the anti-mask/anti-vaccine pro-ivermectin folks of the errors of their beliefs is an almost impossible task, doomed from the start. 
Oh well. We tried.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

I think you should drop the yard off you list it wll still be there in a couple of weeks when you are well..don't push it cos it is a funny infection. It is off the farm lists here too and the local vet has refused to sell it for a while .He will administer it but that is all.


fortunate1 said:


> I feel fine. If he had not had to be tested before his colonoscopy we would never have known. I did start to wonder about the cough, but it is not a dry cough, the nose stuff, I thought was either a cold or from the smoke. I have a feeling doctor will want me tested just for the numbers if nothing else. Record of positive cases. I suggested cousin get re tested, sometimes you get a false positive. I have lots of stuff to keep me busy, crafts, yarn, dog..yard. A lot to do. Yeah I did not see pig wormer in my future either..my doctor is smart, and the ranch and farm supply has pulled it off the shelves, I do think he may want me on a steroid if I test positive because of the lung issue, and I had pneumonia in the sac around my heart a few years ago, which almost killed me. Hospital for over a week..and home on O2. I will be on and off. Thank you for your kindness!


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

The other?


Granny41 said:


> I'm fairly sure that you noticed that all but a couple of the insurrectionists were angry white men. Those who feel threatened by * the other*.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

Take Beano and you will have no gas


crochetknit Deb said:


> I dislike broccoli due to it
> gives me too much gas.
> I get bad stomach cramps.
> Plus the music from both ends.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

It would seem that you are really up the creek without a paddle


peppered said:


> Our doctor is against the vaccine. But they give it to people who wants it. And yes, he would give me Ivermectin.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

For the Love of Shetland said:


> The other?


Anyone not of the same group as oneself. People from elsewhere. Those who have a different way of dress, a different belief system, a different language, a different skin colour, etc. Those are "the other" in just about every human society.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

You are treating people now


peppered said:


> I use Bromhexine since I was about 12 so I always keep some on hand b/c it works. I gave it away to people with COPD, smokers.
> Amazon really doesn't have it.
> It is not to treat covid but help symptoms! And it stops the covid cough!!!!
> I am not against vaccines but this is not vaccine as we know it, and it makes lots of people sick and dead which is another subject.....


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

peppered said:


> I am not a snitch. I know people like you would like to report anything and anybody that does not agree with you.
> There is plenty of doctors and people who does not go with this vaccine BS.
> 
> I still believe in freedom of choice and I do what is best for me when it comes to health.


Then you're free to stay home.


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

fortunate1 said:


> Remember years and years ago..when people did what America asked of them...the GREATEST GENERATION? Now we are a nation of me, me, me...not a nation of us, we, but just me! Wonder what numbers would have reached during the Spanish flu, if Americans did as they are now. I hate to imagine. We all have freedom of choicetI choose to do what I feel is best for the people next door, or down the street, the elderly, the young now getting covid. I choose, to do what I can to curb the spread. Why, because, my country asked me to. I chose not to possibly be the cause a young mother dies from covid, that a husband becomes a single father, because his wife died from covid, I chose not to be the reason...why...because I care, I care about every life..wow, imagine..someone cares about people I don't even know.
> America has asked me to help stop the spread of the virus, by doing simple acts..masks, vaccines, had washing, social distancing..not so hard. So, now I have been exposed, by a family member that refused the vaccine, gave it to her parents, that I help every week two or three days a week. She thought she was fine, then got cold symptoms, swore it was a cold, stayed away for 10 days...sadly she had covid..3 - 10 day incubation ...so before she got her cold, she exposed them..then I unknowingly continued to help them. Altho they are vaccinated, they tested positive yesterday...no symptoms...for 3 days, I have had a cough, and my nose is either running or plugged, no fever, but sweating profusely. I contacted my doc, now I get the NAAT, he also had me fill out a form for CDC. CDC found me at high risk due to smoking and past history of sac pneumonia. Guess if I won't be smoking if I can't leave my house to get them. Which is a good thing, force me to quit.


"Ask not what your country can do for you,
but what you can do for your country."


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

For the Love of Shetland said:


> Take Beano and you will have no gas


Also, I hate the taste
of broccoli.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

crochetknit Deb said:


> Also, I hate the taste
> of broccoli.


Some tastes are acquired, some not. 
As a child, I just assumed I would like such tastes as cigarettes, coffee, tea, beer, and various alcoholic beverages. Didn't happen!


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## sandj (May 16, 2012)

I saw a nurse post that she never got the vaccine because she didn’t fully trust it. I know some hospitals are requesting staff to get the vaccine. Big article out the about Tampa General in Florida. They are requiring all staff to get the vaccine.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

peppered said:


> Our doctor is against the vaccine. But they give it to people who wants it. And yes, he would give me Ivermectin.


If what you say is true---your doctor is a quack.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Granny41 said:


> If what you say is true---your doctor is a quack.


. :sm24:


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

For the Love of Shetland said:


> The other?


Anyone who is not white.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Jessica-Jean said:


> . :sm24:


I would go farther and say that if peppered is telling the truth??? then her doctor should have his license to practice medicine revoked.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Granny41 said:


> I would go farther and say that if peppered is telling the truth??? then her doctor should have his license to practice medicine revoked.


You're assuming he even has one.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Jessica-Jean said:


> You're assuming he even has one.


Yeah--that was a leap wasn't it. She is in Florida after all.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Granny41 said:


> Anyone who is not white.


No, it's not only on visible differences. Among the white populations, there's plenty of strife based on religious affiliation, language spoken at home/accent when speaking the local language, etc. 
The same goes among black skinned Africans of different tribes. Strife in China over religious beliefs. In Japan between the original inhabitants and the more recently arrived Japanese: https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20200519-japans-forgotten-indigenous-people

Before Europeans decided to settle in the Americas, life between various native American peoples wasn't free of strife.

There was strife aplenty across Europe long before that. Peoples seemed to gradually move ever westward, pushing out or overwhelming those who had been there before them.

Eden or Utopia are like the US's freedom to pursue happiness - a goal never quite perfectly achieved, but still worth the pursuit.


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## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

I have to say that there is more unmitigated BS being bandied about in these posts by anti vaccine and pro ivermectin
??people?? Than I have seen in a long while.

I'm at the point where I would need to see documented information on whether one of the posters even had Covid-19. And that would include documentation of the medical licenses of the ?physicians? Who treated the poster.

It is very difficult to wish them - the posters - well and healing when their lies and misinformation is harmful to others.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

spins2knit said:


> It is very difficult to wish them - the posters - well and healing when *their lies and misinformation is harmful to others.*


. :sm24:


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## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

OMG! That should have been "are" harmful! For shame!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

spins2knit said:


> I have to say that there is more unmitigated BS being bandied about in these posts by anti vaccine and pro ivermectin
> ??people?? Than I have seen in a long while.
> 
> I'm at the point where I would need to see documented information on whether one of the posters even had Covid-19. And that would include documentation of the medical licenses of the ?physicians? Who treated the poster.
> ...


I agree! I do take comfort knowing that those who believe the misinformation are very likely to have the same mindset. A pox on them all.


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Evie RM said:


> Protestors in regard to the Black Lives Matter protests sometimes block roadways here. I think that should be illegal. I think one time a part of the freeway was closed because of protestors. That is simply not right, in my opinion.


Just thought that, since you object to BLM protesters, you might like some information about anti-mask protesters who blocked a highway. Don't those anti-mask protesters who were blocking a roadway make your blood boil? If not, and if you only get exercised about BLM protesters, that really does say quite a lot about you and your beliefs. Just FWIW.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/09/16/i-thought-it-was-an-anti-mask-protest-i-was-wrong/?utm_campaign=wp_todays_headlines&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_headlines&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F34b3fb3%2F614467269d2fda9d41d15d43%2F596a89349bbc0f0e09ec3e91%2F38%2F67%2F614467269d2fda9d41d15d43

And now back to unwatching this topic.

Hazel


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

peppered said:


> Oh yeah, the covid jab is studied enough. And I am a virgin Mary! But glad to see to have voluntary quinea pigs!


There have been millions of "covid jabs" across the USA. There is a very low percentage of hospitalizations and deaths for those who have received the jabs verses those who had not received the jabs. If folks in Alaska & Idaho had simply followed the guidelines of wearing masks and getting the jab when is was first available, they would not have to be in the crisis standards of care where hospital resources are given to those who are more capable of surviving.

You've had the proof for over 3 months after many states opened up and mask requirements were removed. Those who have the jab are not the ones crowding the hospitals and causing crisis care. Also, babies and children are dying this time as the Delta variety is more deadly to those who are young.

https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/coronavirus/article254283733.html

https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/2021/09/14/amid-covid-19-overload-providence-alaska-medical-center-now-prioritizing-care-under-crisis-standards/


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Prism99 said:


> Excerpts from https://fortune.com/2021/09/02/ivermectin-covid-why-demand-is-surging/
> 
> ???????????? ????????????'???????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????????????? ???????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????. ???????? ???????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????, ???????????? ???????????????? ???? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ???????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????-????????, ???????? ???? ????????????????????????????-???????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????? ???????? ???? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????, ???????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????? ????????????????????????????????????.
> ..........
> ...


I think the "contrarian" dynamic is the strongest driving force behind those people. They behave like three-year-olds, refusing to get dressed or eat or go to bed.

After all, liberal ideas and concepts have been replacing the old ideas about discrimination, women's rights, our treatment of the disabled, and so many other things. Those who find new ideas frightening or who are out-and-out bigots had been silent for a long time. Trump gave them permission to act out and be obnoxious, so they are taking full advantage of it.

Coupled with confirmation bias and the Dunning-Krueger effect, we have a perfect storm.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

peppered said:


> Thank you for writing this!
> People judge links I posted but the info about Ivermectin is all over internet and if people would just go and read and research, maybe they would stop being so close minded.


If I were so sick with COVID that I could be close to death, I would ask for any medication that I think would help me and that includes Ivermectin. Also, I would ask for infusions of Vitamin C and Zinc that has also been proven to help in treating COVID.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

quilter said:


> Let's start out by posting information and sources that are not fly by night or partially completed data. Here is one in reference to Ivermectin:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/05/us/ivermectin-health-experts.html?.?mc=aud_dev&ad-keywords=auddevgate&gclid=Cj0KCQjw1ouKBhC5ARIsAHXNMI-VkjxgrnlBznDmjABq3XOwLQcJWyK887sarbo1qrOlHl2aYnjNz1YaAkrtEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds


When I click on the link, I am asked to log in or subscribe, so I can't read the article because I do not want to subscribe.


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## edithcarolf (Aug 25, 2012)

I am currently scheduled for a procedure in a major medical center. I would feel more comfortable knowing those caring for me are vaccinated, but I fully support everyone's right to choose. 
I know a nurse who will be leaving her job this month because she refuses to get the vaccine. 
We simply can not afford to loose our qualified health care providers over this. People are going to die from unavailable health care providers.


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## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I think the "contrarian" dynamic is the strongest driving force behind those people. They behave like three-year-olds, refusing to get dressed or eat or go to bed.
> 
> After all, liberal ideas and concepts have been replacing the old ideas about discrimination, women's rights, our treatment of the disabled, and so many other things. Those who find new ideas frightening or who are out-and-out bigots had been silent for a long time. Trump gave them permission to act out and be obnoxious, so they are taking full advantage of it.
> 
> Coupled with confirmation bias and the Dunning-Krueger effect, we have a perfect storm.


This is the truth of it, in a nutshell!


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

Hazel Blumberg - McKee said:


> Just thought that, since you object to BLM protesters, you might like some information about anti-mask protesters who blocked a highway. Don't those anti-mask protesters who were blocking a roadway make your blood boil? If not, and if you only get exercised about BLM protesters, that really does say quite a lot about you and your beliefs. Just FWIW.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/09/16/i-thought-it-was-an-anti-mask-protest-i-was-wrong/?utm_campaign=wp_todays_headlines&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_headlines&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F34b3fb3%2F614467269d2fda9d41d15d43%2F596a89349bbc0f0e09ec3e91%2F38%2F67%2F614467269d2fda9d41d15d43
> 
> ...


You did not get the meaning of my post. I never said that I object to BLM protesters. Why do you jump to conclusions that are so erroneous? I think it should be illegal for any group to block a public highway. I only pointed out the incident of the Black Life Matters group doing so that was reported in the news. Anti-mask protesters would make my blood boil, too, if they were blocking a public highway. Shame on you. You don't know anything about me and my beliefs. By the way, I wear a mask and have never been against the wearing of masks.


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## edithcarolf (Aug 25, 2012)

spins2knit said:


> This is the truth of it, in a nutshell!


I'm very sorry, but I disagree. I have
a grandson who has autism. In 2020 one in every 54 children born in the U.S. is diagnosed with autism. Many believe the research that shows a connection between vaccines and autism. 
I have 2 terminal illnesses and have a compromised immune system. I saw my specialist before getting the Covid vaccine. My research showed a number of deaths in Europe of people after receiving the Covid vaccine. My specialist confirmed that information, but recommended I get the shot because my chances of surviving Covid are very low. 
There is no long term data on effects from receiving this vaccine. If I were young and healthy I would not get this vaccine based on the research I have done. I have read several reports of young, healthy men who got the vaccine and now have severe heart issues. 
I believe everyone should do their own research and make a choice based on their individual health situation.


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## grammyto9 (Mar 8, 2016)

there are cases where it is not recommended that the person (and it may be a HC worker) get the shots! My 23yo granddaughter (she is a CNA in an extended care facility) got her first shot approx a month ago and had a reaction - a knot under one arm. it has not gone down so she went to a doctor and it is covid vaccine related -- they drew fluid from the knot and are testing it to see what she is allergic to -- currently it is not recommended that she take the remaining shot - her mother and brother had no reaction to the shot
my 26 yo granddaughter works in a large opthomology practice and is pregnant so will not be getting the shot
I have heard of many flag raising reactions and side effects -- so take care of yourself ... wash your hands; stay 6 ft apart and wear a mask


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## mea (Jan 21, 2011)

I wouldn’t mind if unvaccinated nurses were allowed to keep their jobs but interact with unvaccinated covid patients only. Neither should mind. Vaccinated nurses could care for vaccinated patients only. Let’s have vaccinated wards and unvaccinated wards...let’s have vaccinated hospitals and unvaccinated hospitals. These two groups should be treated differently. 

Impractical, I know. But I’m sick of there being no reward for doing the right thing. So many of us have sacrificed and done the right thing yet are still barely holding our heads above water because of those who refuse.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

grammyto9 said:


> there are cases where it is not recommended that the person (and it may be a HC worker) get the shots! My 23yo granddaughter (she is a CNA in an extended care facility) got her first shot approx a month ago and had a reaction - a knot under one arm. it has not gone down so she went to a doctor and it is covid vaccine related -- they drew fluid from the knot and are testing it to see what she is allergic to -- currently it is not recommended that she take the remaining shot - her mother and brother had no reaction to the shot
> my 26 yo granddaughter works in a large opthomology practice and is pregnant so will not be getting the shot
> I have heard of many flag raising reactions and side effects -- so take care of yourself ... wash your hands; stay 6 ft apart and wear a mask


I would add to your last sentence: "stay home as much as you can, and stay away from large crowds."


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

edithcarolf said:


> I'm very sorry, but I disagree. I have
> a grandson who has autism. In 2020 one in every 54 children born in the U.S. is diagnosed with autism. Many believe the research that shows a connection between vaccines and autism.
> I have 2 terminal illnesses and have a compromised immune system. I saw my specialist before getting the Covid vaccine. My research showed a number of deaths in Europe of people after receiving the Covid vaccine. My specialist confirmed that information, but recommended I get the shot because my chances of surviving Covid are very low.
> There is no long term data on effects from receiving this vaccine. If I were young and healthy I would not get this vaccine based on the research I have done. I have read several reports of young, healthy men who got the vaccine and now have severe heart issues.
> I believe everyone should do their own research and make a choice based on their individual health situation.


Your last sentence says it all. Everyone should have the freedom of choice.


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## KnittingNut (Jan 19, 2011)

edithcarolf said:


> I'm very sorry, but I disagree. I have
> a grandson who has autism. In 2020 one in every 54 children born in the U.S. is diagnosed with autism. Many believe the research that shows a connection between vaccines and autism.
> I have 2 terminal illnesses and have a compromised immune system. I saw my specialist before getting the Covid vaccine. My research showed a number of deaths in Europe of people after receiving the Covid vaccine. My specialist confirmed that information, but recommended I get the shot because my chances of surviving Covid are very low.
> There is no long term data on effects from receiving this vaccine. If I were young and healthy I would not get this vaccine based on the research I have done. I have read several reports of young, healthy men who got the vaccine and now have severe heart issues.
> I believe everyone should do their own research and make a choice based on their individual health situation.


Look up the stats on people who die each year from prescribed medications from their physicians. That's what's scary to me. You schedule a 20 minute visit to your doctor, and it's a crap shoot if you're going to be diagnosed properly. You're one of many who have already packed their day. Did your doctor graduate in the top or bottom half of their class? You could be at the whim of the last pharmaceutical rep who visited the office that day and left samples. Every time you put a drug, food, supplements, or herbs into your body you take a calculated risk. I'd rather take a chance on this vaccine, as the alternative could be deadly - I don't want to suffocate, have my limbs amputated for blood clots, heart attack, organ failure, or stroke out.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Evie RM said:


> If I were so sick with COVID that I could be close to death.


How very curious! 
You question the validity of COVID19 vaccines authorized for use in dozens of countries worldwide but are willing to take a drug Ivermectin approved by the FDA to treat people with intestinal strongyloidiasis and onchocerciasis, two conditions caused by parasitic worms. In addition, some topical forms of ivermectin are approved to treat external parasites like head lice and for skin conditions such as rosacea but not authorized for treatment of COVID19.

Ivermectin, a prescription drug product, is authorized for sale in Canada for the treatment of parasitic worm infections in humans, specifically intestinal strongyloidiasis and onchocerciasis, and should only be used for this purpose, under the supervision of a healthcare professional.
Perhaps you could explain your rationalization (if possible).

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/she-demanded-hospital-treat-her-192301464.html


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

Evie RM said:


> If I were so sick with COVID that I could be close to death, I would ask for any medication that I think would help me and that includes Ivermectin. Also, I would ask for infusions of Vitamin C and Zinc that has also been proven to help in treating COVID.


If you were close to death due to Covid, the Vitamin C and Zinc and Ivermectin would not be effective and may actually be harmful in the case of Ivermectin. The patients treated in hospitals that are "close to death" are intubated and major organs, especially lungs & kidneys have been compromised. The patients at this point are also unable to respond as they are usually in an induced coma. Too much vitamin C & Zinc can have a negative effect on normal kidney function and even normal amounts can have a negative effect on damaged kidneys. Any research on Ivermectin that I have seen seems to be on folks who have just been diagnosed with Covid and it supposedly helps folks get a build up of antibodies sooner than those who have not taken Ivermectin, ergo it would not be effective for those who are near death due to Covid. Think about it - antibodies are there in the Covid patient as they already have had the disease for a while and more antibodies are not going to repair lungs or kidneys. Ivermectin even in small doses can have a negative affect on humans and, if a person's kidneys are compromised due to Covid, may even hasten death.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Evie RM said:


> Your last sentence says it all. Everyone should have the freedom of choice.


Only if that 'freedom of choice' does not have the potential of the harming another's health, life or freedom.

Quote: The famous poet Alfred George Gardiner in his work "Pebbles on the Seashore", summed up this conundrum most beautifully. A person's freedom ends where another man's freedom begins. This fact has been affirmed from Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes to John Stuart Mill and Abraham Lincoln.


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

edithcarolf said:


> I am currently scheduled for a procedure in a major medical center. I would feel more comfortable knowing those caring for me are vaccinated, but I fully support everyone's right to choose.
> I know a nurse who will be leaving her job this month because she refuses to get the vaccine.
> We simply can not afford to loose our qualified health care providers over this. People are going to die from unavailable health care providers.


 People are already dying from unvaccinated people passing the virus to them. If I am paying for medical services, I have a right to be cared for by nurses who are vaccinated. Nurses who do not want to be vaccinated have the right to work elsewhere.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

edithcarolf said:


> I'm very sorry, but I disagree. I have
> a grandson who has autism. In 2020 one in every 54 children born in the U.S. is diagnosed with autism. Many believe the research that shows a connection between vaccines and autism.
> I have 2 terminal illnesses and have a compromised immune system. I saw my specialist before getting the Covid vaccine. My research showed a number of deaths in Europe of people after receiving the Covid vaccine. My specialist confirmed that information, but recommended I get the shot because my chances of surviving Covid are very low.
> There is no long term data on effects from receiving this vaccine. If I were young and healthy I would not get this vaccine based on the research I have done. I have read several reports of young, healthy men who got the vaccine and now have severe heart issues.
> I believe everyone should do their own research and make a choice based on their individual health situation.


No, research does NOT show a connection between vaccines and autism. The "many believe" part is true, but those beliefs are based on BS that has been disproven over and over and over and over.

No one is criticizing people who have legitimate reasons for not getting vaccinated. They comprise a miniscule percentage of the population. The vast majority who refuse the vaccination have only their "beliefs" and their opinions - and a desire to resist common sense. I have no use for them and certainly no respect for them. They endanger all of us.

As for people dying after receiving the vaccine? Another ridiculous claim. Even if 100 people across the world died from the vaccine, MILLIONS upon MILLIONS have not. Additionally, fanatics have attributed many deaths to the vaccine when there was no connection whatever - just to "prove" their claims.

Your research likely consists of internet searches and nothing more. That is NOT research. Unless you are a qualified expert, the truth is you have read a lot of stuff, some of it patently false, but have no basis upon which to claim any serious research.


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

edithcarolf said:


> I'm very sorry, but I disagree. I have
> a grandson who has autism. In 2020 one in every 54 children born in the U.S. is diagnosed with autism. Many believe the research that shows a connection between vaccines and autism.
> I have 2 terminal illnesses and have a compromised immune system. I saw my specialist before getting the Covid vaccine. My research showed a number of deaths in Europe of people after receiving the Covid vaccine. My specialist confirmed that information, but recommended I get the shot because my chances of surviving Covid are very low.
> There is no long term data on effects from receiving this vaccine. If I were young and healthy I would not get this vaccine based on the research I have done. I have read several reports of young, healthy men who got the vaccine and now have severe heart issues.
> I believe everyone should do their own research and make a choice based on their individual health situation.


 Many believe in error. Have you actually looked at the research yourself? If you had, you would know that the study indicating a connection between vaccines and autism was retracted and the author's medical license revoked due to falsified information.
https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speaking-of-health/autism-vaccine-link-debunked
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/5/11/15508006/what-causes-autism-spectrum-disorder-vaccine-theory
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/autism.html


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

I would mind, we would have no idea of a nurses lifestyle,she may or not put herslef at risk when off duty and if I was in the hospital the chances are sickness, surgery whatever would weaken me somewhat so she would be a danger even if on a different ward. I 100% think all hospital employees should be vaxxed from Drs right down to maintenance.


mea said:


> I wouldn't mind if unvaccinated nurses were allowed to keep their jobs but interact with unvaccinated covid patients only. Neither should mind. Vaccinated nurses could care for vaccinated patients only. Let's have vaccinated wards and unvaccinated wards...let's have vaccinated hospitals and unvaccinated hospitals. These two groups should be treated differently.
> 
> Impractical, I know. But I'm sick of there being no reward for doing the right thing. So many of us have sacrificed and done the right thing yet are still barely holding our heads above water because of those who refuse.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

I know what the other means it just seemed so rude to say white then the others as if they were not worth a mention by name


Granny41 said:


> Anyone who is not white.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

Evie, I am glad that you wear your mask and are outraged about road blocking but we do know something of your beliefs, you have said so much on this topic about what you believe that folks are bound to make judgements after reading it.


Evie RM said:


> You did not get the meaning of my post. I never said that I object to BLM protesters. Why do you jump to conclusions that are so erroneous? I think it should be illegal for any group to block a public highway. I only pointed out the incident of the Black Life Matters group doing so that was reported in the news. Anti-mask protesters would make my blood boil, too, if they were blocking a public highway. Shame on you. You don't know anything about me and my beliefs. By the way, I wear a mask and have never been against the wearing of masks.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

So I got my test today. Now I wait, 24-48 hours. My doctor also set me up for monocholdial therapy. I am a candidate, and he believes that at my risk level it would be best. Since my results will come in over the weekend he has gotten the number to me, and sent my information to them, in the event I test positive, I am all set to start the infusion.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

I don't wish them harm I wish they would change their mind, if not for themselves then for the folks around them. All medicines, vaccines, medical procedure all have a tiny bit of risk, you just have to read the info page in any medicne box to know that , but you have to weigh things up. The danger of getting Covid then dying or passing it to your family is much much greater than the vax .You have a risk of dying in a car or plane versus staying home but we all take that risk. We are in danger from eating too many French fries, now that would be something to find out.We go through life taking tiny chances on most everything these days so why not a Covid vax, The folks taking pig wormer are certainly taking a chance.. need I say more.


DGreen said:


> I agree! I do take comfort knowing that those who believe the misinformation are very likely to have the same mindset. A pox on them all.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

For the Love of Shetland said:


> I know what the other means it just seemed so rude to say white then the others as if they were not worth a mention by name


I'm sorry that my statement offended you. I was speaking from the perspective of the angry white men. It is they who feel that anyone who is not like them has no worth.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

Granny41 said:


> How very curious!
> You question the validity of COVID19 vaccines authorized for use in dozens of countries worldwide but are willing to take a drug Ivermectin approved by the FDA to treat people with intestinal strongyloidiasis and onchocerciasis, two conditions caused by parasitic worms. In addition, some topical forms of ivermectin are approved to treat external parasites like head lice and for skin conditions such as rosacea but not authorized for treatment of COVID19.
> 
> Ivermectin, a prescription drug product, is authorized for sale in Canada for the treatment of parasitic worm infections in humans, specifically intestinal strongyloidiasis and onchocerciasis, and should only be used for this purpose, under the supervision of a healthcare professional.
> ...


I have already posted the links to studies for its use on COVID patients, so I won't be repetitive and post them again.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

For the Love of Shetland said:


> Evie, I am glad that you wear your mask and are outraged about road blocking but we do know something of your beliefs, you have said so much on this topic about what you believe that folks are bound to make judgements after reading it.


A judgement shouldn't be made about me not liking black lives matter protesters because I used it as an example of one protest group blocking a public road. I said nothing against any peaceful protestors. I am all for peaceful demonstrations no matter what the protest as long as they don't inhibit the rights of people to use a public road. No where in this discussion have I said that I was against any group.


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## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

edithcarolf said:


> I'm very sorry, but I disagree. I have
> a grandson who has autism. In 2020 one in every 54 children born in the U.S. is diagnosed with autism. Many believe the research that shows a connection between vaccines and autism.
> I have 2 terminal illnesses and have a compromised immune system. I saw my specialist before getting the Covid vaccine. My research showed a number of deaths in Europe of people after receiving the Covid vaccine. My specialist confirmed that information, but recommended I get the shot because my chances of surviving Covid are very low.
> There is no long term data on effects from receiving this vaccine. If I were young and healthy I would not get this vaccine based on the research I have done. I have read several reports of young, healthy men who got the vaccine and now have severe heart issues.
> I believe everyone should do their own research and make a choice based on their individual health situation.


You are welcome to disagree. There are no legitimate definitive studies proving autism and vaccines are related. Your research probably does not have any legitimate medical references.

Do what is right for you. Just stay away from me and those I care about so that they are not infected with whatever you have.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

I know that Evie, you misunderstood me. I do understand your beliefs. I know your church is against racial intolerance and I know you follow your church. Just as a point I rarely make judgement on anyone but I may judge what they do or say.


Evie RM said:


> A judgement shouldn't be made about me not liking black lives matter protesters because I used it as an example of one protest group blocking a public road. I said nothing against any peaceful protestors. I am all for peaceful demonstrations no matter what the protest as long as they don't inhibit the rights of people to use a public road. No where in this discussion have I said that I was against any group.


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## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

Granny41 said:


> Only if that 'freedom of choice' does not have the potential of the harming another's health, life or freedom.
> 
> Quote: The famous poet Alfred George Gardiner in his work "Pebbles on the Seashore", summed up this conundrum most beautifully. A person's freedom ends where another man's freedom begins. This fact has been affirmed from Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes to John Stuart Mill and Abraham Lincoln.


Hear! Hear!


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

For the Love of Shetland said:


> I know that Evie, you misunderstood me. I do understand your beliefs. I know your church is against racial intolerance and I know you follow your church. Just as a point I rarely make judgement on anyone but I may judge what they do or say.


Sorry I misunderstood you. You have my apology.


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## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

Evie RM said:


> You did not get the meaning of my post. I never said that I object to BLM protesters. Why do you jump to conclusions that are so erroneous? I think it should be illegal for any group to block a public highway. I only pointed out the incident of the Black Life Matters group doing so that was reported in the news. Anti-mask protesters would make my blood boil, too, if they were blocking a public highway. Shame on you. You don't know anything about me and my beliefs. By the way, I wear a mask and have never been against the wearing of masks.


You have made yourself very clear in your posts- clear enough that you aren't being misunderstood at all. Your choice of examples is clearly indicative of your biases.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

spins2knit said:


> You have made yourself very clear in your posts- clear enough that you aren't being misunderstood at all. Your choice of examples is clearly indicative of your biases.


What biases?


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Evie RM said:


> I have already posted the links to studies for its use on COVID patients, so I won't be repetitive and post them again.


Your profile indicates that you are a retired secretary/administrative assistant. I see no degrees in the medical field listed. I certainly have none and rely on true medical professionals for advice and prescribing of medications.

You have cut and pasted a number of worthless links that you may not even have read much less understood.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

Granny41 said:


> Your profile indicates that you are a retired secretary/administrative assistant. I see no degrees in the medical field listed. I certainly have none and rely on true medical professionals for advice and prescribing of medications.
> 
> You have cut and pasted a number of worthless links that you may not even have read much less understood.


I have read them and pasted from links that I have also posted so others can read in entirety. It is your opinion that they are worthless -- so be it. Of course, I don't have a degree in the medical field. I do have an intelligent brain and have learned much during my 78 years here on this earth. I have never told anyone not to get the vaccine. I have never told anyone that they have to do anything. Everything should be a personal choice based on personal circumstances. My doctor has told me that I am sharp. I respect his opinion.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Evie RM said:


> I have read them and pasted from links that I have also posted so others can read in entirety. It is your opinion that they are worthless -- so be it. Of course, I don't have a degree in the medical field. I do have an intelligent brain and have learned much during my 78 years here on this earth. I have never told anyone not to get the vaccine. I have never told anyone that they have to do anything. Everything should be a personal choice based on personal circumstances. My doctor has told me that I am sharp. I respect his opinion.


I have a suitable retort on the tip of my tongue but will keep it to myself. Admin would not approve.


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## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

peppered said:


> I am not a snitch. I know people like you would like to report anything and anybody that does not agree with you.
> There is plenty of doctors and people who does not go with this vaccine BS.
> 
> I still believe in freedom of choice and I do what is best for me when it comes to health.


Snitch?! You are quoting him and yet you don't have faith enough in him and his convictions to let him stand up and be counted. Of course, the hospital and other doctors will soon put him in order with substantial scientific data that he will be unwilling and unable to refute. Sounds to me like a political problem to me. There are plenty of people who won't get the vaccine, but we can only hope there are few doctors. You seem to have found one and that is not necessarily a good thing. Or did he agree since no one can convince you otherwise. Sometimes it is easier to get rid of a patient that won't be educated than to convince them of facts.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

Granny41 said:


> I have a suitable retort on the tip of my tongue but will keep it to myself. Admin would not approve.


So no need then. Good for you. 27 pages is getting way too long, so I am un-watching this one.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Evie RM said:


> So no need then. Good for you. 27 pages is getting way too long, so I am un-watching this one.


Yeah. Me too! At least we can agree on that.


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

Me three!!!


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## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

Will the last person out of the room please turn off the light?


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## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

Evie RM said:


> When I click on the link, I am asked to log in or subscribe, so I can't read the article because I do not want to subscribe.


I can't get it back either, sorry, I can't even remember what it said except it was in reference to covid.


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## KnittingNut (Jan 19, 2011)

The focus of the plight of the healthcare workers and covid has reached it's sad end on this thread. It's been such a hot topic, and now we know where all of us stand on the subject. It's divided some of us. The Delta variant is hovering close, threatening us all. I've learned that the 'topic de jour' usually coincides with news links, and the fear level of the subject. I don't know if the news media wants to keep us stirred up, or keep us informed. What I do know, is that the powers-that-be want to keep us divided and distracted from other real issues. We're given the choice from media sources of choosing our anxiety stressor of the day, every single day. It's exhausting. I'm going to be more intentional with my time and energy.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

Stay safe everyone,,bye


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## edithcarolf (Aug 25, 2012)

KnittingNut said:


> Look up the stats on people who die each year from prescribed medications from their physicians. That's what's scary to me. You schedule a 20 minute visit to your doctor, and it's a crap shoot if you're going to be diagnosed properly. You're one of many who have already packed their day. Did your doctor graduate in the top or bottom half of their class? You could be at the whim of the last pharmaceutical rep who visited the office that day and left samples. Every time you put a drug, food, supplements, or herbs into your body you take a calculated risk. I'd rather take a chance on this vaccine, as the alternative could be deadly - I don't want to suffocate, have my limbs amputated for blood clots, heart attack, organ failure, or stroke out.


I completely agree with everything you said. That's why I got the vaccine.


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## lkg67 (Jan 25, 2016)

Healthcare workers who don’t want to get a vaccination is ridiculous. There are other vaccinations that they were required to get to become healthcare worker. Shame on them. I can leave the hospital should not only be turning away these employees but also they should be turning away unvaccinated potential patients to make room for vaccinated people. If you don’t care about medical science you shouldn’t run to a hospital emergency room for care when you did not choose to be vaccinated. I believe this would make more people get vaccinated and it would solve the problem of hospitals having no beds.


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## lkg67 (Jan 25, 2016)

Healthcare workers who don’t want to get a vaccination is ridiculous. There are other vaccinations that they were required to get to become healthcare workers. Shame on them. I believe the hospitals should not only be turning away these employees but also they should be turning away unvaccinated potential patients to make room for vaccinated people. If you don’t care about medical science you shouldn’t run to a hospital emergency room for care when you did not choose to be vaccinated. I believe this would make more people get vaccinated and it would solve the problem of hospitals having no beds.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

lkg67 said:


> …*If you don't care about medical science you shouldn't run to a hospital emergency room for care when you did not choose to be vaccinated.* I believe this would make more people get vaccinated and it would solve the problem of hospitals having no beds.


I hate it, but I agree with you.


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## KnittingNut (Jan 19, 2011)

Why do people think that getting a vaccine is more lethal than your doctor prescribing medications. Does anyone pay attention to the drug advertisements between your favorite TV shows? Arthritis, Parkinsons, Colitis, skin maladies, breast cancer, etc., with disclaimers of side effects? Isn't the common denominator death, stroke, death to an unborn baby, and heart attacks? Do you read the drug interactions when you get a new med? Do you trust a new med over the science of the vaccine? Per Johns Hopkins, 251,000 die each year from medical errors - third leading cause of death in the US. So, if you get a reaction to the covid vaccine, your death ratio is (out of 338 million doses) 0.0018%. Most reactions to the vaccine are treatable - that's why they make you wait 15 minutes after the jab. Really people...ask a long-hauler what they think.


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## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

Well if we're going to talk about not allowing un-vaccinated people to come into the hospital in order to make room for vaccinated people, I have another suggestion. Perhaps we should not allow ANYBODY in the hospital who makes UNWISE health decisions, in order to make room for people who do make wise health decisions. 

Like the overweight people who have stuffed their faces with all the wrong foods. (Because it is an unwise health decision to over eat and give themselves hardening of the arteries and high blood pressure, etc.) So many of them take up beds in the hospital. Why can't they go on diets? I think the government should weigh them every week to see if they can lose weight. 

And also the people who drink too much alcohol. Because they may drink and drive, affecting my safety on the roads. They take up a lot of hospital beds with their liver problems and other such stuff. Why can't the government stop them from drinking? 

And I don't think any doctors or nurses should work at prisons. Why should they take care of people who have broken the law? Heck no, don't let them work at prisons----then they'd be available to help at the hospitals for people who make wise health decisions! 

And the smokers. Definitely I think the smokers should be turned away at hospitals-----they give themselves lung cancer, and they should not be allowed in the hospital. I hate smelling the smoke of smokers. It might affect MY LUNGS. So many of them take up hospital beds. Why can't they stop smoking?

What???? Suddenly the hospitals are empty because so many people who make unwise health decisions are not allowed to come in???? Yep, now the hospitals have enough beds for those of us who make wise health decisions!!!! Thank goodness!!!!


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Susie2016 said:


> Well if we're going to talk about not allowing un-vaccinated people to come into the hospital in order to make room for vaccinated people, I have another suggestion. Perhaps we should not allow ANYBODY in the hospital who makes UNWISE health decisions, in order to make room for people who do make wise health decisions.
> 
> Like the overweight people who have stuffed their faces with all the wrong foods. (Because it is an unwise health decision to over eat and give themselves hardening of the arteries and high blood pressure, etc.) So many of them take up beds in the hospital. Why can't they go on diets? I think the government should weigh them every week to see if they can lose weight.
> 
> ...


OK. Point made. That won't work.

There was much resistance to seat belt legislation, but eventually it became more obeyed than not. Unfortunately, a LOT more preventable deaths will happen, before the government orders everyone who's medically able to be vaccinated.


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## KnittingNut (Jan 19, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> OK. Point made. That won't work.
> 
> There was much resistance to seat belt legislation, but eventually it became more obeyed than not. Unfortunately, a LOT more preventable deaths will happen, before the government orders everyone who's medically able to be vaccinated.


I watched the vintage video footage of the seatbelt legislation controversy. You can interchange the same arguments, outrage, anger, and language as the facemasks/vaccine resistance. I was amazed, but it explained a lot about human nature.


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## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

Susie2016 said:


> Well if we're going to talk about not allowing un-vaccinated people to come into the hospital in order to make room for vaccinated people, I have another suggestion. Perhaps we should not allow ANYBODY in the hospital who makes UNWISE health decisions, in order to make room for people who do make wise health decisions.
> 
> Like the overweight people who have stuffed their faces with all the wrong foods. (Because it is an unwise health decision to over eat and give themselves hardening of the arteries and high blood pressure, etc.) So many of them take up beds in the hospital. Why can't they go on diets? I think the government should weigh them every week to see if they can lose weight.
> 
> ...


People eating too much does not affect anyone but themselves. They don't spread "fat" to me. Even though I have tried that excuse.

There are laws about drunk driving and they will be punished for that. Not enough, but they are not allowed by society to drink and drive.

People are being punished by being in prisons. They are being detained.

Smokers are no longer allowed to smoke everywhere. There are laws to prevent the spread of second hand smoke as well.

There is not a shot for any of these other things. While I agree they are bad for society they are not infecting hundreds of thousands of others by there selfish actions or there are laws to be punished for that. Through laws we are able to control many undesirable behaviors people think they have a right to inflict on others. There are too many anti vaxxers in our society spreading misinformation and even profiting monetarily or politically. How do we save those unable to be vaccinated? People are being restricted in their movements by not being able to enter certain places or do certain things if they are not vaccinated. This is necessary for everyone's safety while others scream about their personal freedoms. While we may still have to treat some of those who refuse to get vaccinated, I don't think their need supersedes the needs of others that are experiencing health emergencies. Perhaps that will be another deterrent to those who still refuse the vaccine, they may only get treated if they have been vaccinated and there is room with a limited number that can be handled. There are unpleasant decisions that must be made to save the innocent.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

quilter said:


> … There are unpleasant decisions that must be made to save the innocent.


I pity the medical personnel who will have to make those hard decisions.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

If I smoke, it is never around others, or even in my own home or cars. It is my nasty habit and no one needs to be exposed. People that are overweight are not always stuffing their faces, some have medical reasons. Drinking and driving, they are usually punished by law. YOU on the other hand, are running around exposing people to a deadly disease. YOU could kill hundreds from exposing just three people. Prisoners that kill, usually get life. You cannot deny them medical help, as that is considered inhumane treatment. Why should people go to prison for life, if they murder, when you unvaccinated are possibly murdering in mass numbers. 
Where do your rights end, and others right to life begin? Why should the vaccinated stay home to protect themselves, unvaccinated should be the ones that stay home. If you feel that strongly about not getting the vaccine, then you need to stay out of public places, and lick your wounds. If you have no respect for others and spread the virus, then think about this..When, and I say when because odds are you WILL get Covid, you better hope there is a bed available, and a ventilator. Otherwise your days may be numbered. Why should unvaccinated be given a bed, YOU chose not to get vaccinated! YOU chose to believe your immune system will fight it off..YOU made conscience choices..there is the difference. I never heard anyone say...I wanna be fat...never heard a smoker say, I want lung cancer, never heard a diabetic say, I want to go into a coma...never even heard a prisoner say, when I grow up, I wanna rob banks, and steal and kill...YOU on the other hand decided YOU don't want the vaccine. Think about someone besides yourself! NURSES are dropping! Doctors are at their wits end..but nope, It is all about YOU!


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

fortunate1 said:


> If I smoke, it is never around others, or even in my own home or cars. It is my nasty habit and no one needs to be exposed. People that are overweight are not always stuffing their faces, some have medical reasons. Drinking and driving, they are usually punished by law. YOU on the other hand, are running around exposing people to a deadly disease. YOU could kill hundreds from exposing just three people. Prisoners that kill, usually get life. You cannot deny them medical help, as that is considered inhumane treatment. Why should people go to prison for life, if they murder, when you unvaccinated are possibly murdering in mass numbers.
> Where do your rights end, and others right to life begin? Why should the vaccinated stay home to protect themselves, unvaccinated should be the ones that stay home. If you feel that strongly about not getting the vaccine, then you need to stay out of public places, and lick your wounds. If you have no respect for others and spread the virus, then think about this..When, and I say when because odds are you WILL get Covid, you better hope there is a bed available, and a ventilator. Otherwise your days may be numbered. Why should unvaccinated be given a bed, YOU chose not to get vaccinated! YOU chose to believe your immune system will fight it off..YOU made conscience choices..there is the difference. I never heard anyone say...I wanna be fat...never heard a smoker say, I want lung cancer, never heard a diabetic say, I want to go into a coma...never even heard a prisoner say, when I grow up, I wanna rob banks, and steal and kill...YOU on the other hand decided YOU don't want the vaccine. Think about someone besides yourself! NURSES are dropping! Doctors are at their wits end..but nope, It is all about YOU!


According to most right to lifers,
the right to life begins at concep-
tion, ends the moment one's born.
Then one is on one's own.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

If you have AIDS and you choose to have sex with somone one can be charged with attempted murder in many places, and you don't have had to acually give them disease. Your choice in this case it to refrain from sex to avoid breaking the law.

MAYBE WE HAVE TO MAKE SOME RULES FOR OURSELVES

Pondering here minute.... OK HERE I GO

If I was am employer I would not allow my staff to work until they had vaxxs plus 2 weeks
If I was a customer in a shop, I would not shop there until the owner had internal proof dispalyed stating all his staff were vaxxed.
I would not allow anyone, personal or work related on my property unless they were vaxxed.
I would not be seen by a Dr or nurse unless they were fully vaxxed.
I would keep my children from school until the staff and eligble children were fully vaxxed.
Ditto to churches,taxi's , buses.
Ditto to any other situation were contact is involved.

Now I come to think, the eye surgeon's nurse who prepped me was pregnant...I didn't think about it at the time..3 months agol I would now.

We have vax passports now,if I go in a place to eat etc I have to show it.. I would also ask to see theirs.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

For the Love of Shetland said:


> … We have vax passports now,if I go in a place to eat etc I have to show it.. I would also ask to see theirs.


Quebec also has vaccine passports, BUT their usage isn't exactly under control. 
To date, I have only been asked to show it and an ID at two places - an amusement park and a food court in a public market. However, in neither place did they use the government app to scan my passport. That cripples the whole system! Should there be an outbreak, not having scanned the passports means there's zero possibility of tracing who else might have been infected. An employee _seeing_ my QR code doesn't equal it being scanned into the system. 
By law, if you intend on eating inside such places as McDonald's, someone is supposed to scan your vaccine passport. So far, that hasn't happened, so I take out and eat in my car, instead of at a table, or just eat at home and skip supporting my local business. 
I fear this vaccine passport system is goong to be a costly failure, if all the players don't play by the rules.


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## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

The only way many people will get vaccinated will be to continue to limit their access to the "normal world". As with all rules that affect changes i.e. seat belts, speeding laws, it takes some people a long time to accept that the world is a better place with everyone caring for and about others. They have now developed a vaccine for 5-12 year olds that will have to be reviewed by the FDA. That will again, if approved, allow greater freedom for all. There was a picture of a young man who had participated in the trial flexing his arm and showing his Bandaid. Proud to have participated and given the chance to help others. More of that from adults would be welcomed. Finding solutions rather than finding ways to buck proven methods of treatment and inventing theories to clog up the progression on a fight to end a deadly disease is counterproductive and selfish.


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## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

I think a lot of people missed my point.

When the virus sickness of AIDS was recognized in the 80's, we RN's didn't even know a lot about it. The doctors didn't even know a lot about it. And we were all deathly afraid of catching it, for sure!!!! But we carried on. We took precautions to protect ourselves while we cared for those patients.

Society was blaming people who had caught AIDS----the same way you are blaming unvaccinated people for catching COVID!!! Society didn't have any compassion for AIDS victims at all. And there were no medicines for AIDS in those days like there are now. Those poor patients died horrible deaths!!! 

BUT WE RN'S CERTAINLY DIDN'T BLAME THE PATIENTS FOR CATCHING AIDS LIKE SOCIETY DID. THE WAY SOCIETY IS BLAMING UNVACCINATED PEOPLE FOR CATCHING COVID NOW. 

Society blamed anybody who caught AIDS and treated them like lepers!!!! But we RN's had compassion for our patients. They were human beings to us. We worked and worked and worked to help our patients any way we could!!!! We risked our lives to care for them!!! 

Nobody thanked us for our hard work. And it wouldn't have dawned on us to complain to tv stations about how tired we were. We were RN's. We knew what the job entailed before we walked through the doors of the hospital. We were all trained on how to take care of infectious patients and protect ourselves. And so we did our jobs.

I think the nurses who today are endlessly complaining about how tired they are taking care of COVID patients are weaklings. They need to either do their jobs or quit.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Susie2016 said:


> I think a lot of people missed my point.
> 
> When the virus sickness of AIDS was recognized in the 80's, we RN's didn't even know a lot about it. The doctors didn't even know a lot about it. And we were all deathly afraid of catching it, for sure!!!! But we carried on. We took precautions to protect ourselves while we cared for those patients.
> 
> ...


People can easily avoid catching a severe case of COVID, so they definitely are to blame if they end up in the hospital on a ventilator - or die. Their excuses for refusing vaccinations are mostly BS.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Susie2016 said:


> … I think the nurses who today are endlessly complaining about how tired they are taking care of COVID patients are weaklings. *They need to either do their jobs or quit.*


Sadly, there are nurses and doctors who are quitting. Worse, there are some who only see suicide as an answer. :sm13:

I don't know the reasons. Maybe the difference between the reactions of nurses dealing with AIDS back then and dealing with Covid-19 now is the speed. I don't remember ever hearing of anyone who contracted AIDS and died in under a month. I believe the deaths were many months or even years post-diagnosis. 
COvid-19 is super swift. A person goes from hale and hearty to dead at supersonic speed. 
From: https://bmcmedresmethodol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12874-021-01314-w
*The estimated mean time between diagnosis and death was 18.1 days …*

I believe the only comparable pandemic was the Bubonic Plague. It's even faster.


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## Prism99 (Apr 14, 2015)

DGreen said:


> People can easily avoid catching a severe case of COVID, so they definitely are to blame if they end up in the hospital on a ventilator - or die. Their excuses for refusing vaccinations are mostly BS.


 This is true.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/vast-majority-icu-patients-covid-19-unvaccinated-abc/story?id=79128401


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## edithcarolf (Aug 25, 2012)

Susie2016 said:


> I think a lot of people missed my point.
> 
> When the virus sickness of AIDS was recognized in the 80's, we RN's didn't even know a lot about it. The doctors didn't even know a lot about it. And we were all deathly afraid of catching it, for sure!!!! But we carried on. We took precautions to protect ourselves while we cared for those patients.
> 
> ...


God bless you for being an RN. The medical profession would be lost without you. You are very courageous.


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## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

edithcarolf said:


> God bless you for being an RN. The medical profession would be lost without you. You are very courageous.


Thank you so much!!!


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

Before the vaccine came,
two of my cousins, men, 
and one's wife caught
Covid. You bet your
bottom dollar they 3
got the two shots. One
cousin said it was 10
times worst than the flu.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Susie2016 said:


> I think a lot of people missed my point.
> 
> When the virus sickness of AIDS was recognized in the 80's, we RN's didn't even know a lot about it. The doctors didn't even know a lot about it. And we were all deathly afraid of catching it, for sure!!!! But we carried on. We took precautions to protect ourselves while we cared for those patients.
> 
> ...


You're not showing a great deal of compassion for the nurses go have been in this for over 18 months straight now.

The sheer numbers of patients and constant and never ending admissions is the difference between the AIDS and Covid situations.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5021a2.htm


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

RookieRetiree said:


> You're not showing a great deal of compassion for the nurses go have been in this for over 18 months straight now.
> 
> The sheer numbers of patients and constant and never ending admissions is the difference between the AIDS and Covid situations.
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5021a2.htm


Interesting numbers. 
Covid deaths in USA ~600,000 in a year and a half. 
AIDS deaths in USA: *since the first cases were diagnosed back in 1981*, no less than 675,000. 
From: https://www.verywellhealth.com/how-many-people-die-from-aids-each-year-49053

So, comparable _numbers_, but never as many desperately ill patients *at the same time *as now. 
Never before were morgues and funeral homes overloaded - bodies in refrigerator trucks! Mass burials? Not since the Spanish Flu pandemic. Not with HIV/AIDS.

No comparison at all between the burden on the health care system by HIV/AIDS and Covid-19.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Interesting numbers.
> Covid deaths in USA ~600,000 in a year and a half.
> AIDS deaths in USA: *since the first cases were diagnosed back in 1981*, no less than 675,000.
> From: https://www.verywellhealth.com/how-many-people-die-from-aids-each-year-49053
> ...


Thanks for adding more depth to my point.


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## KnittingNut (Jan 19, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Sadly, there are nurses and doctors who are quitting. Worse, there are some who only see suicide as an answer. :sm13:
> 
> I don't know the reasons. Maybe the difference between the reactions of nurses dealing with AIDS back then and dealing with Covid-19 now is the speed. I don't remember ever hearing of anyone who contracted AIDS and died in under a month. I believe the deaths were many months or even years post-diagnosis.
> COvid-19 is super swift. A person goes from hale and hearty to dead at supersonic speed.
> ...


The difference between AIDS and Covid is not only the speed, but the sheer volume of those affected. Demanding that our healthcare workers put their life and health (especially their mental health) on the line 18 months, for a cause that is scoffed at, I'd be tired of it too. It's a war zone, pure and simple. How many sick, dead, and dying people could you cope with, day-in, and day-out? And a portion of the American citizenry act like spoiled children for a virus that is not only killing them, but those around them. It used to be that only the old were dying, now it's anyone. This division is killing us, and for something that is totally controllable - this is insane. The vaccine will save us and the healthcare community, but the stubborn, selfish, brainwashed, propagandized will hold their ground. I'm sick of it.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

AIDS was not passed on by air droplets.

I bcame a volunteer one on one buddy with AIDS Vancouver and went the distance with 4 patients.I met dozens of folks who had compassion for them and I met many staff who cared for them, they were unsure abut it of course and they were scared, so was I . Todays staff are facing a different kind of mecical invasion and some things will be the same but I could never say or even think they are weaklings.I think Covid is much easier to get than AIDS.

I am sad that some medical staff feel they have to leave but we all have our breaking point, me and you do, I think it is terribly unfair to call the staff names because they cannot continue.I cannot agree with you about them doing more or quitting.It has been more than 18 months with no real sign of stopping. I cannot say how I would be if working there.I feel Covid is different, and would feel very wrong in judging them. I buddied 4 separate people right through to their funerals. It was emotionally extremely hard but I managed .Often I thought I could not take on another but somehow I did.We would all be in a right pickle if all the staff that had enough walked out, and it is as true today. I am certain there are many that want to but continue to stay at their posts despite the personal trauma and fear it gives them, sort of like the AIDS staff way back then....= Compassion does not stop extreme burn out,in fact it can add to it, maybe you didn't get quite to that point, I know I didn't.


Susie2016 said:


> I think a lot of people missed my point.
> 
> When the virus sickness of AIDS was recognized in the 80's, we RN's didn't even know a lot about it. The doctors didn't even know a lot about it. And we were all deathly afraid of catching it, for sure!!!! But we carried on. We took precautions to protect ourselves while we cared for those patients.
> 
> ...


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

My point with the numbers is that Covid has already killed in *18 months* about the same number of individuals as AIDS did in *240 months*.

Absolutely NONE of us, not even the most highly trained epidemiologists, were in the least prepared for this pandemic.

Covid is many magnitudes more stressful on EVERYONE than AIDS was/is.

The healthcare system is - be it ever so slowly - collapsing under the strain.

It is my firm desire that all governments make vaccination obligatory for all who are medically able to be vaccinated. No abstention on religious grounds or just because! It's that, or what we are now experiencing will be permanently ongoing - at least until all the unvaccinated are killed off by it.


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## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

From what I am able to find 675,000 died from AIDS in 40 years or 480 months whereas 677,000 died in 19 months. Quite a difference in volume and obviously the spread occurs like wildfire with covid and AIDS requires a degree of participation not required with covid. All those who helped with AIDS or Covid deserve our thanks. What seems counterintuitive to me is quitting because they (nurses) don't want to take the very vaccine that will help people not get the virus. Quitting from exhaustion or sheer disgust at those who refuse to take a simple preventative measure to help themselves, while endangering others, is understandable.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Susie2016 said:


> I think a lot of people missed my point.
> 
> When the virus sickness of AIDS was recognized in the 80's, we RN's didn't even know a lot about it. The doctors didn't even know a lot about it. And we were all deathly afraid of catching it, for sure!!!! But we carried on. We took precautions to protect ourselves while we cared for those patients.
> 
> ...


YOU said it yourself, no one knew much about it. I had a brother HIV positive. No one I remember ever treated him like a leper, nor other friends. As we learned more about AIDS we did better. The thing here is...WE KNOW what Covid has done and can do! It morphs and then spreads again, becoming stronger. Again, the difference with nursing Covid is the HOURS, the shortages in nurses, the trying to protect your family, often staying away from them, the endless days with no time off! The fact that AIDS was transferred sexually for the most part, Covid is airborne. You do not become infected with AIDS by being within 6-16 feet of an Aids patient. so you are comparing apples to oranges, for a nurse, you sure seem to be lacking in some areas, either intentionally or with lack of information. Also you are out of line, referring to nurses as weaklings! They are fighting long hours, 16-18 , working 18 days in a row with no freaking time off. Hopefully you are no longer nursing, as you have shown how little you know.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

I am glad I am no longer working. this is mass insanity. Our country is divided, not only by COVID, but the Party Of -45. No longer the GOP. 
If every retired nurse felt as this Susie person, it would be worse. Nurses that retired are being called to see if they will work during this time. I won't. I am too physically broken. Teachers, are in shortage, I know because a cousin, retired agreed to work as a sub..she is now working full time, and they are still begging for teachers, bus drivers, shortage. None of these people want to work with possible exposure or..because they refuse the vaccine. Putting undue strain on professions already stretched. The America of Me...I admire the previous generation much more than ever before. My parents, raised during the depression, then lived thru WWII, sure seemed to care a lot more about our country than this generation. They did what they did because they loved America. They did it to lift us, they struggled thru the depression, because they knew how to become self reliant. They cared about the populations of where they lived. No more. Not a one of these unvaccinated care about the country and what it will take to heal it, to get on with our life, not a one of them care about the medical professionals dropping or quitting. I have worked 16 hour shifts, and honey, it ain't no picnic. Now, let's look at truck drivers, they can not legally drive for over 12 hours, then they have to stop. I know a lot don't but that is the law. They become a danger after that long. Our nurses are working longer shifts, with the life of others in their hands. Why? That Susie person is not a nurse, if she were treating someone I loved, I would kick her out of their room, and demand a different nurse. She is uneducated if comparing Aids to Covid.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

You got that so right,


fortunate1 said:


> YOU said it yourself, no one knew much about it. I had a brother HIV positive. No one I remember ever treated him like a leper, nor other friends. As we learned more about AIDS we did better. The thing here is...WE KNOW what Covid has done and can do! It morphs and then spreads again, becoming stronger. Again, the difference with nursing Covid is the HOURS, the shortages in nurses, the trying to protect your family, often staying away from them, the endless days with no time off! The fact that AIDS was transferred sexually for the most part, Covid is airborne. You do not become infected with AIDS by being within 6-16 feet of an Aids patient. so you are comparing apples to oranges, for a nurse, you sure seem to be lacking in some areas, either intentionally or with lack of information. Also you are out of line, referring to nurses as weaklings! They are fighting long hours, 16-18 , working 18 days in a row with no freaking time off. Hopefully you are no longer nursing, as you have shown how little you know.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

And that too. Over te years I worked with some nursing staff that perhaps were in the wrong profession, they were slow to react or they had poor bedside manners but I never ever worked with one with her attitude. Even the slow ones rallied when the need arose and the poor bedside ones just followed other folks lead and get better at it. I cannot imagine a nurse who would call her collegues names. I am sure they are doing their best and that really is all we can expect. I feel bothered by it all, even at 79 I would ahppilly go back and muck in but if I can't stand I am of little use.Would that I could though.

I also think we have it better up here than you do, it is odd but when you look on a map at Covid levels, the further north one is the better.Of course I am thinking of us as North America not the US and Canada. It is odd but it is a fact. I know our vaxxed levels are higher than yours though so that must make a difference.

I just wish everyone could get on the same page and we all work to get rid of it, we can all do something, vaxxed, masks, be careful of course but support the folks that are doing so much more.Send them a note, give them a wave however small it counts, but don't deride them. It is like wartime, yet we haven't yet all started to pull together.



fortunate1 said:


> I am glad I am no longer working. this is mass insanity. Our country is divided, not only by COVID, but the Party Of -45. No longer the GOP.
> If every retired nurse felt as this Susie person, it would be worse. Nurses that retired are being called to see if they will work during this time. I won't. I am too physically broken. Teachers, are in shortage, I know because a cousin, retired agreed to work as a sub..she is now working full time, and they are still begging for teachers, bus drivers, shortage. None of these people want to work with possible exposure or..because they refuse the vaccine. Putting undue strain on professions already stretched. The America of Me...I admire the previous generation much more than ever before. My parents, raised during the depression, then lived thru WWII, sure seemed to care a lot more about our country than this generation. They did what they did because they loved America. They did it to lift us, they struggled thru the depression, because they knew how to become self reliant. They cared about the populations of where they lived. No more. Not a one of these unvaccinated care about the country and what it will take to heal it, to get on with our life, not a one of them care about the medical professionals dropping or quitting. I have worked 16 hour shifts, and honey, it ain't no picnic. Now, let's look at truck drivers, they can not legally drive for over 12 hours, then they have to stop. I know a lot don't but that is the law. They become a danger after that long. Our nurses are working longer shifts, with the life of others in their hands. Why? That Susie person is not a nurse, if she were treating someone I loved, I would kick her out of their room, and demand a different nurse. She is uneducated if comparing Aids to Covid.


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

My next statement may cause
some flack, I hope it does.
To those refusing the vaccine,
please stay home! Don't leave.
Don't allow any visitors, either.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

crochetknit Deb said:


> My next statement may cause
> some flack, I hope it does.
> To those refusing the vaccine,
> please stay home! Don't leave.
> Don't allow any visitors, either.


You'll probably not get any flack, because that lot probably isn't on this topic.


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

Jessica-Jean said:


> You'll probably not get any flack, because that lot probably isn't on this topic.


Oh.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

crochetknit Deb said:


> My next statement may cause
> some flack, I hope it does.
> To those refusing the vaccine,
> please stay home! Don't leave.
> Don't allow any visitors, either.


I totally agree! I said the same thing. Why should those of us that are vaccinated, and do wear masks, be exposed to them? THEY are the ones that need to stay home and out of the public. They are the major group spreading the virus, so they should be the ones locked down!!


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## kleiner (Mar 15, 2014)

Susie2016 said:


> I think a lot of people missed my point.
> 
> When the virus sickness of AIDS was recognized in the 80's, we RN's didn't even know a lot about it. The doctors didn't even know a lot about it. And we were all deathly afraid of catching it, for sure!!!! But we carried on. We took precautions to protect ourselves while we cared for those patients.
> 
> ...


You cannot compare HIV with Covid.
You cant get aids by someone sneezing or coughing or even breathing near you. You need bodily fluds to be exchanged.
With Covid nurses and other staff need to be wear PPE (pesonal protection equipment) all shift. Gloves ,plastic gowns ,hair covering,goggles,masks etc 
Try looking in and ICU unit to see what reality is. https://fb.watch/8btKBFnbTl/


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

fortunate1 said:


> I totally agree! I said the same thing. Why should those of us that are vaccinated, and do wear masks, be exposed to them? THEY are the ones that need to stay home and out of the public. They are the major group spreading the virus, so they should be the ones locked down!!


Thank you!


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

kleiner said:


> You cannot compare HIV with Covid.
> You cant get aids by someone sneezing or coughing or even breathing near you. You need bodily fluds to be exchanged.
> With Covid nurses and other staff need to be wear PPE (pesonal protection equipment) all shift. Gloves ,plastic gowns ,hair covering,goggles,masks etc
> Try looking in and ICU unit to see what reality is. https://fb.watch/8btKBFnbTl/


The only comparison I made was to the NUMBERS over TIME.


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## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

Again, I think you guys missed my point. The point is compassion.

Some of you guys think that they shouldn't let the unvaccinated patients into the hospitals. That really rubbed me the wrong way. Turn away sick people and just let them die? It brought to my mind the quote: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

And lecturing me on how tired the nurses are who take care of COVD patients? Oh heck, I used to get tired when I used to work. I worked one job where I worked 14 hour shifts in an ER. Lord, I was tired. Every shift I'd slog my way through tons of blood, vomit, pus, pee, and poop. I must have started a gazillion IV's, trying to bring dead people back to life. 

I once witnessed a woman who had a near death experience. Guess what? There IS a Heaven. She told the doctor about it. Me and my charge nurse saw her say: "I'm back" after we shocked her with the defib paddles. She had been dead a few minutes before. She told the doctor she wanted to stay in Heaven but the people there told her she had to come back to raise her children.

Getting tired taking care of COVID patients? Trust me, taking care of people on ventilators is not hard. I've done that too. You just suction them every so often. You turn them every 2 hours so they don't get bed sores. You shove meds into IV's that the nice nurse down in the ER started for you. Piece of cake.

No, I'll tell you what tired is. A 14 hour shift in the ER. Where you take care of bleeding, broken, dying people while their family prays at their bedside. That's what tired is.

I tell you what. I think these complaining COVID nurses need to go downstairs and do a shift or two in the ER. Then they can tell me what tired is.


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## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

Again, I think you guys missed my point. The point is compassion.

Some of you guys think that they shouldn't let the unvaccinated patients into the hospitals. That really rubbed me the wrong way. Turn away sick people and just let them die? It brought to my mind the quote: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

And lecturing me on how tired the nurses are who take care of COVD patients? Oh heck, I used to get tired when I used to work. I worked one job where I worked 14 hour shifts in an ER. Lord, I was tired. Every shift I'd slog my way through tons of blood, vomit, pus, pee, and poop. I must have started a gazillion IV's, trying to bring dead people back to life. 

I once witnessed a woman who had a near death experience. Guess what? There IS a Heaven. She told the doctor about it. Me and my charge nurse saw her say: "I'm back" after we shocked her with the defib paddles. She had been dead a few minutes before. She told the doctor she wanted to stay in Heaven but the people there told her she had to come back to raise her children.

Getting tired taking care of COVID patients? Trust me, taking care of people on ventilators is not hard. I've done that too. You just suction them every so often. You turn them every 2 hours so they don't get bed sores. You shove meds into IV's that the nice nurse down in the ER started for you. Piece of cake.

No, I'll tell you what tired is. A 14 hour shift in the ER. Where you take care of bleeding, broken, dying people while their family prays at their bedside. That's what tired is.

I tell you what. I think these complaining COVID nurses need to go downstairs and do a shift or two in the ER. Then they can tell me what tired is.


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## kleiner (Mar 15, 2014)

Susie2016 said:


> Again, I think you guys missed my point. The point is compassion.
> 
> Some of you guys think that they shouldn't let the unvaccinated patients into the hospitals. That really rubbed me the wrong way. Turn away sick people and just let them die? It brought to my mind the quote: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
> 
> ...


You have no idea


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## kleiner (Mar 15, 2014)

Jessica-Jean said:


> The only comparison I made was to the NUMBERS over TIME.


Yes I got what you were saying and totally agree. I was just trying to address the incorrect information by Susie2016


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## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

Susie2016 said:


> Again, I think you guys missed my point. The point is compassion.
> 
> Some of you guys think that they shouldn't let the unvaccinated patients into the hospitals. That really rubbed me the wrong way. Turn away sick people and just let them die? It brought to my mind the quote: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
> 
> ...


Gosh with all that compassion and experience maybe you could volunteer at your hospital to show those covid nurses how easy it is to care for their patients. Even once a week and you could whip them all into line about what work really is. Problem solved.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Susie2016 said:


> Again, I think you guys missed my point. The point is compassion.
> 
> Some of you guys think that they shouldn't let the unvaccinated patients into the hospitals. That really rubbed me the wrong way. Turn away sick people and just let them die? It brought to my mind the quote: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
> 
> ...




How do you not know that the ER is where the Covid patients are and where the medical staffs are overwhelmed? Your posts are inconsequential due to your lack of understanding and compassion.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-hospital-emergency-rooms-children-rsv-wait-time-20210922-qe72cdceqzf5rcw5zxkk3yh7zy-story.html


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

RookieRetiree said:


> How do you not know that the ER is where the Covid patients are and where the medical staffs are overwhelmed? *Your posts are inconsequential due to your lack of understanding and compassion.*
> 
> https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-hospital-emergency-rooms-children-rsv-wait-time-20210922-qe72cdceqzf5rcw5zxkk3yh7zy-story.html


My daughter is one of those ER nurses. It's just lucky for her that, when she began the foster-to-adopt program in 2018, she also seriously cut back on her work hours. If she were doing endless 12-hour days instead of one to three a week, she'd probably have been burnt out by now. 
The Covid-infected, unvaccinated, and very ill never stop arriving at her hospital in Fresno. 
She's stopped lecturing on the advantages of the vaccine. She just does what she can to keep them comfortable.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> My daughter is one of those ER nurses. It's just lucky for her that, when she began the foster-to-adopt program in 2018, she also seriously cut back on her work hours. If she were doing endless 12-hour days instead of one to three a week, she'd probably have been burnt out by now.
> The Covid-infected, unvaccinated, and very ill never stop arriving at her hospital in Fresno.
> She's stopped lecturing on the advantages of the vaccine. She just does what she can to keep them comfortable.


I'll keep hoping for an end to this for her sake and so many others in all of our families. I've always believed the human spirit can endure so much when they know that there is an ending in sight. There just isn't any end in sight for Covid and it's unrelenting presence is burning out those who are our best chance of beating it.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

RookieRetiree said:


> I'll keep hoping for an end to this for her sake and so many others in all of our families. I've always believed the human spirit can endure so much when they know that there is an ending in sight. There just isn't any end in sight for Covid and *it's unrelenting presence is burning out those who are our best chance of beating it.*


Were I a prayerful type, I'd be praying for ALL governments to mandate vaccination of everyone who's medically able to be vaccinated. No exceptions on religious grounds, let alone 'freedom'. 
I don't see any alternative.


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## fortunate1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Susie2016 said:


> Again, I think you guys missed my point. The point is compassion.
> 
> Some of you guys think that they shouldn't let the unvaccinated patients into the hospitals. That really rubbed me the wrong way. Turn away sick people and just let them die? It brought to my mind the quote: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
> 
> ...


You are whining! Woozy! Waaa, I worked in ER maybe those complaining Covid nurses should do a shift or two in ER..how do you know they haven't? You are assuming. Again, 16 hours to 18 hour shifts! Intensive care,with no CNA in sight. You didn't take care of those ER patients alone. You didn't work for days on end, not knowing when your next day off would be! You didn't come back every day, to the same dying or ailing patients, yours were either released or moved to a floor. Family waiting to hear word if their loved one had passed, or gotten worse..you don't get to compare your whiney time in ER to what these nurses are doing. No.. you have NO idea. None! Were you ever afraid to go home to your family because you worked with Covid? Were you ever scared to hug your own child or husband, because you were exposed to a disease that has the potential to kill them? Stress, worry, on top of those 16-18 hour days...and those 18-20 day shifts. You just need to stop! I worked cardiac..wanna talk about intense. Did I go home tired, sure, but..I knew I had a day or two off coming up, these people don't have that luxury. You are a whiner.


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## KnittingNut (Jan 19, 2011)

With the serge of patients in Alaskan hospitals (1000 a day), patient care will be determined by who will likely survive with hospitalization. Facing overwhelmed hospitals, Alaska became the second state this month to give health-care providers the power to prioritize patients — largely based on their likelihood to survive — for scarce resources and even deny treatment. So, the question of turning away patients, mostly unvaccinated will be a mute point if we don't get a handle on this pandemic. We saw it coming.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

fortunate1 said:


> You are whining! Woozy! Waaa, I worked in ER maybe those complaining Covid nurses should do a shift or two in ER..how do you know they haven't? You are assuming. Again, 16 hours to 18 hour shifts! Intensive care,with no CNA in sight. You didn't take care of those ER patients alone. You didn't work for days on end, not knowing when your next day off would be! You didn't come back every day, to the same dying or ailing patients, yours were either released or moved to a floor. Family waiting to hear word if their loved one had passed, or gotten worse..you don't get to compare your whiney time in ER to what these nurses are doing. No.. you have NO idea. None! Were you ever afraid to go home to your family because you worked with Covid? Were you ever scared to hug your own child or husband, because you were exposed to a disease that has the potential to kill them? Stress, worry, on top of those 16-18 hour days...and those 18-20 day shifts. You just need to stop! I worked cardiac..wanna talk about intense. Did I go home tired, sure, but..I knew I had a day or two off coming up, these people don't have that luxury. You are a whiner.


My daughter's routine upon arriving home from work: 
Park her bicycle in the garage. 
Strip. 
Enter house through door from garage. 
Dump all clothing into waiting washing machine, and turn it on. 
Shower. 
Only THEN dare she greet spouse and child.


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## KnittingNut (Jan 19, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> My daughter's routine upon arriving home from work:
> Park her bicycle in the garage.
> Strip.
> Enter house through door from garage.
> ...


My niece does the same when her shift is over. She had covid in the beginning of the pandemic. It was tough, and fortunately she survived. She documented her journey by phone video. She is one of the lucky ones. I have another RN niece that works in neo-natal care in a large hospital in Orange County. She has been ok, but I worry. She is vaccinated too. My son is a fireman/paramedic, and I worry - every single day...my worry is overwhelming. But, I try to be positive, and rein in my anger at those who use lame excuses to not be vaccinated. I can't fix stupid, but I can try to get the message out. I feel chaos from multiple sides - are we ever going to feel normal? What will we be when we finally emerge from all this crisis crap? Better, or damaged beyond repair? There are those who are wishing for the later, I'm sure.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

No. What we once considered 'normal' will never _quite_ return. 
Exactly what the new normal will be is still unknown.


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

Jessica-Jean said:


> No. What we once considered 'normal' will never _quite_ return.
> Exactly what the new normal will be is still unknown.


Normal will 
never return.
I agree.


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## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

LOL.


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

Why do you find that funny. I find it sad.


Susie2016 said:


> LOL.


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## crochetknit Deb (Sep 18, 2012)

For the Love of Shetland said:


> Why do you find that funny. I find it sad.


What is it you find sad?
Someone once said that
change is always around,
except from a vending
machine.


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## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

I find it sad that it took so long to recognize and admit and now that we have a solution, people still refuse to act or deny the obvious.


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## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

For the Love of Shetland said:


> Why do you find that funny. I find it sad.


I'm just laughing!!! :sm04: :sm04: :sm04:


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## For the Love of Shetland (Jan 26, 2019)

Did I miss something what was it you were laughing at,


Susie2016 said:


> I'm just laughing!!! :sm04: :sm04: :sm04:


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## quilter (Oct 23, 2011)

Susie2016 said:


> I'm just laughing!!! :sm04: :sm04: :sm04:


There may be a reason:

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/516446/theres-psychological-reason-you-laugh-worst-times


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