# sharing patterns



## inishowen (May 28, 2011)

A few days ago I put some pictures of things I've knitted on the forum. I got a lot of requests for the patterns. All my patterns come from magazines. Here is my question. Am I breaching copyright if I copy patterns and send them to others? Or, when people ask for a pattern do these assume it's a free pattern? I'm confused, as other people seem to provide a link when asked for a pattern.


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## karchy (Nov 28, 2012)

i'd be very interested in thoughts about this as well. When i first joined the forum i was asked several times for the pattern for the shawl i knitted for my mum's christmas but because it was in a magazine i couldn't link to the pattern as it wasn't online. I'd love to know if i could actually share the pattern as it was soooooo easy to do and a great project for a beginner who wants to tackle a larger project.
mags


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## jinx (Feb 12, 2011)

I believe you cannot print and share patterns that come from a magazine. It is wonderful when posting a picture to state that it is from a magazine and the issue of the magazine it is in. Links just take you to the site where the pattern may be for sale or free. Posting the link is fine as it does not give you the actual pattern.


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## PointySticksNStones (Mar 20, 2012)

jinx said:


> I believe you cannot print and share patterns that come from a magazine. It is wonderful when posting a picture to state that it is from a magazine and the issue of the magazine it is in. Links just take you to the site where the pattern may be for sale or free. Posting the link is fine as it does not give you the actual pattern.


This is the way I understand it.


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## Lorraine Botha (Feb 27, 2013)

I also believe that it is not legal to just share patterns. Many bought patterns stipulate that you may use it if for yourself or for charity but should recognise the designer as the creator of the pattern. I fully agree. However, most patterns say that you may not use them for financial gain without permission from the designer or publisher. Here is my problem: I knit to earn extra income to supplement my very small pension. I have written/faxed/e-mailed numerous requests to try and obtain permission, without any success so far. I have not received any responses, let alone permission. Also, I wonder how many of those patterns are truly original.


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## Novasea (Nov 10, 2012)

I am curious...can you share an entire magazine you have purchased..with you neighbor ..for example? You would then be sharing all of the magazine's contents..including the pattern.

What about selling used books, patterns and/or pattern books at yard sales?


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## inishowen (May 28, 2011)

Thanks ladies. From now on I will just say the name of the magazine and the issue number.


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## missmolly (Jun 8, 2011)

Novasea said:


> I am curious...can you share an entire magazine you have purchased..with you neighbor ..for example? You would then be sharing all of the magazine's contents..including the pattern.
> 
> What about selling used books, patterns and/or pattern books at yard sales?


Yes, you are allowed to lend or give your magazine to your friend. 
You are also allowed to sell the original patterns ~ you just can't photocopy, or scan and email to a friend :-D


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## RoxyCatlady (Mar 22, 2011)

Novasea said:


> I am curious...can you share an entire magazine you have purchased..with you neighbor ..for example? You would then be sharing all of the magazine's contents..including the pattern.
> 
> What about selling used books, patterns and/or pattern books at yard sales?


You can give the actual magazine or sell it to anyone you wish. You can loan it to them. You cannot make copies of any or all of the magazine and distribute them in any way.

So, it is legal to give your neighbour the magazine, but you cannot email it to your neighbour, because then it can be printed (copied) and that is not legal.


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## RosieC (Feb 14, 2012)

this is a controversial subject .... and it is argued over time after time. I think Gypsycream (the KP'r who has her great bear patterns and so many members have made these) would know exactly what the answer is. As for the magazine, I would think that if one Googled the magazine name, the name of the pattern and the person who created the pattern, you could probably find it on the internet. I have purchased patterns online in PDF form and often they say you can make the item, but you are not allowed to sell or profit from that pattern. Tricky waters !!! And really good questions.


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## Homeshppr (Feb 28, 2011)

Good answers, everyone. Very helpful information, too.


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## inishowen (May 28, 2011)

Thanks everyone. It's nice that we could discuss copyright without any unpleasantness. I thought it was probably ok to lend the original magazine.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

This is a sore subject. I hold copyright on many patterns. Patterns that appear in magazines ARE copyrighted. You may NOT duplicate or distribute the copyrighted material of another in any form! That is copyright infringement.

You MAY however lend your copy of the magazine to another, with the understanding that no copy will be made. You can even sell your copy of the magazine.

Even "free" patterns are copyrighted.

There seems to be a great deal of "layman's interpretation" of copyright. Copyright law is not up to interpretation, it's a clear, concise law that protects the copyright holder, much like the deed to your home protects your ownership of that home.

Let me put this in another, perhaps more easily understood, way of thinking.

You buy a home, you toil to pay it off, you hold the deed on the property. Along comes a neighbor that decides he/she, wants to move the fence line over a few feet so they can have more room. Would you stand for that? Probably not. Copyrighted material is "owned" by the copyright holder, it cannot be duplicated nor distributed (even for free)without the permission of the copyright holder.


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## Lorraine Botha (Feb 27, 2013)

I fully agree and respect the copyright. That is why I was seeking permission but, as I had pointed out, how do you get that permission. I have Googled an author's name and found e.g. a blog but trying to send a message is another matter. One particular blog asked if I was a robot and I had to retype some funny words. I did it absolutely correctly but it kept on coming back. There was an option for complaining but, you guessed it, no response. I realise that creators of patterns do not want to be bothered by millions of people all over the world, but what should one do?


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## Raybo (Mar 12, 2011)

I think the easiest way to think on this without going into complicated legalese is the word "copyright" is the right to copy and this is owned by somebody, not me.


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## Tennessee.Gal (Mar 11, 2012)

I had a rather unpleasant incident over a "bought" pattern for a faroese shawl. Someone in the prayer shawl group at church asked for a copy and I wrote down the link where she could buy it. The cost was only $2.00, which I considered very reasonable. Well, she had a duck fit. Didn't see why I couldn't just step into the church office and make her a copy. I tried to explain about copyright but it went in one ear and out the other. If she had been nice about it, I would have suggested that she do a Google search. There are other patterns for faroese shawls and maybe she could have found a free one.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

No, patterns cannot be copied and distributed. Some very old books are now out of copyright and can be copied. Many people are doing it, even selling copies, which is not right, but somehow other crafters seem to think it is perfectly fine. 

This tells me a lot about a person


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

A copyright holder is not "obligated" to reply to requests for permission to duplicate/distribute. No answer is an answer.

I have a separate email set up for my designs, while I try to answer each request, sometimes it is a "chore". The largest problem comes when permission is denied and someone wants to argue their point. These are unsolicited requests.

If someone emailed you and asked for your grandmothers ring, that you had a photo of on your blog, you probably would say no. Though you are not obligated to reply to a request for your property.


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## Lorraine Botha (Feb 27, 2013)

The difference is that in front of the book it insinuates that you may use it IF you have permission. I do not see it in the same sense as my grandmother's ring. Please, I am really trying to do the right thing. No offense meant. Could I recognise the designer on a card with, all references made, if I wish to sell knitted copies (toys)? Just asking! Maybe I must just give up being honest.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

No you cannot merely give the designer credit. Copyright comes with the automatic protection that ones intellectual property cannot be used by another, for commercial gain. An "after the fact", recognition to the copyright holder, will not hold up in court. 

I'm concerned about your statement, "Maybe I must just give up being honest.". 

If you are not getting an answer, that means the answer is "no". Please accept that and move on but don't threaten to do something that is against the law.


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## NellieKnitter (Sep 10, 2012)

chickkie said:


> No, patterns cannot be copied and distributed. Some very old books are now out of copyright and can be copied. Many people are doing it, even selling copies, which is not right, but somehow other crafters seem to think it is perfectly fine.
> 
> This tells me a lot about a person


My question is, how many years are the copyrights in effect? Sometimes people ask for patterns for "condo" knitting patterns, for example and I have patterns that are 25 - 30 years old--may I share them? I haven't shared them, but I would like to.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Current copyright law (in the US) was rewritten in the late 70's and lasts for the life of the copyright holder plus 75 years. A 30 year old copyright pattern still has a long way to go before it is no longer covered by copyright protection.

Copyrighted material becomes property of the estate of the copyright holder, after they have expired (passed away).

Look at the case of Michael Jackson. His copyrighted songs are now part of his estate. Income generated from those songs, adds to the estate and helps support his children.


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## ltyler65 (Aug 14, 2012)

I believe you can make and sell items even when the pattern is copyrighted. I may be wrong and if someone knows differently please let us know. Happy knitting


Lorraine Botha said:


> I fully agree and respect the copyright. That is why I was seeking permission but, as I had pointed out, how do you get that permission. I have Googled an author's name and found e.g. a blog but trying to send a message is another matter. One particular blog asked if I was a robot and I had to retype some funny words. I did it absolutely correctly but it kept on coming back. There was an option for complaining but, you guessed it, no response. I realise that creators of patterns do not want to be bothered by millions of people all over the world, but what should one do?


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

ltyler65, your belief is wrong. Copyright automatically comes with the protection from having ones copyrighted material being used for the commercial/financial gain of another.

You cannot take the copyrighted song of another, record it and sell it..same thing. You cannot take a copyrighted book, turn it into a screenplay then a movie and profit from it..same thing.


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## Novasea (Nov 10, 2012)

The easiest thing to do is to learn knitting techniques...make your own designs and knitted items...don't worry about buying patterns...and then you can do what you want with the things you create as a knitter. It would appear that if you buy patterns you are restricted to knitting only for yourself..not for donation to charitable groups...neonatal units...shipping overseas etc etc. Neither can you make knitted items...using a pattern...and sell these items at craft sales to supplement your knitting hobby. As I said...learn the techniques and do your own thing!! Do not purchase patterns unless absolutely necessary.


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## NellieKnitter (Sep 10, 2012)

Many patterns say you may use the pattern to knit items for charity. Just not for your profit. I am assuming if you knit items that are sold, for example at your church craft fair and the money earned goes to your church or church mission work to help the less fortunate--that would be ok?


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Most designers have no objection to their patterns being used to craft items for donation. In fact there are several designers who have created designs for just that purpose. Those patterns generally contain the warning that the pattern is for either personal use or for use to make items to donate to charity.

There seems to be a "them and us" mentality when it comes to copyright. Having lived on both sides of that fence, I've learned that each side must offer understanding and respect to the other.

How many "wealthy", knitting/crochet pattern, designers are there? Not all that many. For the most part, pattern designers hold down full time jobs and designing is a "part time" gig. Granted there are hopes to aspire up there with the greats.

I copyright under a studio name, the earnings go towards paying the co payments for my glaucoma medications and I'm able to put a little money into college funds that I have started for each of my grandchildren. The earnings do NOT go to sustain my knitting passion..they go for needed medications and a college fund for two, small children. 

It was when I started writing as a free lance writer, that I was put in touch with a fantastic copyright attorney, who darn near blinded me with the tomes of information he required that his clients read and understand.

Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd need to understand the depths of copyright.

We do seem to understand it better in other genres...like the music industry. We even understand it in the film industry...when it comes to knitting/crocheting, we seem to think that all is fair in love and war.

If you really want to sell unique and highly sought after, hand knitted/crochet items, I agree with the previous poster. Use your skills to create your own patterns. I don't say that sarcastically either. I truly mean it as an encouragement. 

One of the best patterns I ever came across, was one created by a bit of a novice knitter. A lovely vest that is unisex, has a zippered front, pockets and a great collar. I couldn't begin to tell you how many of those vests I have made, as gifts, over the years. I've changed the color combinations, changed the size, added a rhinestone zipper (for a family member who is a bit of a Diva). The original pattern still belongs to the lovely woman who designed it. She designed it for a relative.

I wouldn't dream of "sharing" her pattern, but I will send you to the site I found it on. It wouldn't cross my mind to knit it for profit either. It's a masterpiece in of itself! The woman who created it, put a lot of work into that pattern and I doubt she has made a dime off of it. 

Every time I make that vest, I sent her a photo. I've never once emailed her to ask permission to make and "sell" her creation..it simply wouldn't occur to me to do that. She's a contributor to the craft.

NellieKnitter, even ONE sale, no matter if t he profits go to charity or not, is "commercial use" and prohibited under copyright law. Perhaps the designer is diametrically opposed to the charity.

There is no "wiggle" factor in copyright, it is what it is and it's the law. Copyright law is not up to the individuals interpretation.

You are free to create your own patterns to craft items to sell for your own personal profit or that of the charity you support, though you may not use the copyrighted material of another for either purpose.


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## ElegantDetails (Jan 2, 2012)

courier770 said:


> Most designers have no objection to their patterns being used to craft items for donation. In fact there are several designers who have created designs for just that purpose. Those patterns generally contain the warning that the pattern is for either personal use or for use to make items to donate to charity.
> 
> There seems to be a "them and us" mentality when it comes to copyright. Having lived on both sides of that fence, I've learned that each side must offer understanding and respect to the other.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your very thorough explanation of copyrights as it pertains to knitting and crocheting. I think you are right....most of us lay folks don't fully grasp the whole concept. Misinterpreted information runs amuck!!!!! I really think there is no illwill intended.... just lack of knowledge.


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## iShirl (Jun 30, 2012)

Personally I knit for charity so I am just an interested bystander here. But I do wonder one thing:

If you buy a pattern and work on it and change it, let's say change the collar on a cardigan, and maybe put some cables up the front, would the copyright be infringed now??

Interesting string; thanks for starting it...


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

It's a difficult subject to navigate, I'll give you that. Though it is a subject with a clear and concise set of laws, not something that can be left up to the interpretation of laypeople. 

I'm sure that most people mean no "harm" but harm does occur every day, due to ignorance.

We all know that we can't dip into the purse or wallet of the person in front of us in the grocery store line and take out a few dollars. Yet we don't seem to realize that the unauthorized "sharing" of copyrighted patterns, does exactly that. It takes dollars out of designers pockets and MORE. As a designer, I have a copyright attorney on my meager payroll, a printer/publisher. My account may only be worth pennies..but those are pennies that others depend on. 

I have two large, glass jars in my home...both are decorative and kind of cute. One holds silver change, the other holds "pennies". This weekend I had the chore of dumping them both out and putting the coins into bank rolls. Total take..nearly $1,000.00...collected a penny at a time. What will I do with my "found" money? Well I'll probably make an extra house payment, a couple of extra payments on my car and with the leftover..go get a burger...from the dollar menu! Maybe I'll even spring for one of those $1.10 ice cream sundae's. 

One man's/woman's pennies are anothers "gold". *smile*


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## christine 47 (Oct 7, 2011)

I bought a 3 patterns recently from eBay. The one I just spotted and I liked, the 2nd I had searched in various wool shops and couldn't find and the 3rd was an adult pattern that I thought my be something my daughter or DIL might like. The 1st one, a vintage child's pattern, was being sold by a man selling all his wife's patterns for her as they were moving house and she didn't want them any more. When it arrived it was a pattern in pristine condition but looking closely it had been printed on to glossy paper. Was this someone clearing patterns or someone selling copies of patterns. The 2nd one was a photocopy of the original pattern and I paid the same price as the original. The 3rd one was an original pattern. Whilst I was searching in shops for one of the patterns I came across numerous photocopies of patterns being sold. If someone wants a copy of a pattern that is no longer in print I have no qualms about sharing it. The copyright has gone. I can't see the problem with sharing magazine patterns. The owner would have been paid for the pattern by the magazine to allow them to give it away for free.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

christine 47 said:


> ....Deleted for length.....
> If someone wants a copy of a pattern that is no longer in print I have no qualms about sharing it. The copyright has gone.
> I can't see the problem with sharing magazine patterns.
> The owner would have been paid for the pattern by the magazine to allow them to give it away for free.


1) Just because the pattern or pattern book is no longer in print, does NOT mean it is out of copyright.
Just an example...Look at how many reprints went into effect for the Harmony Guides Books.
No one knows when that reprint is going to happen.
An independent designer may choose to not sell her/his pattern for say 10 years; and then decide to sell again.
They can because they still hold the copyrights.
Just because the designer chooses to stop selling for a while does not mean it is out of print for you to do as you please with their property.

2) Most pattern designers will SELL their pattern to a magazine, which means they sold the copyright to the magazine.
Now the magazine has copyrights, until such time that they want to relinquish those copyrights (or let them expire).

3) There are more issues of the pattern book(s) than that one copy you hold in your personal library.
Many people can find an out of print book on E-Bay, Amazon, Etsy, Craiglist, yard sales, library sales, and the such....for others to get the book.
Sometimes it may take a week or so to see one up for sale on E-Bay and Amazon, but they are indeed out there.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Unless you are sure that the copyright is "legally gone", you cannot make assumptions.

As for magazine patterns, the designer may still hold copyright, may have "lent" copyright to t he magazine or sold copyright to the magazine. The "sharing" of any copyrighted material is still copyright infringement.

Granted, since you don't make your living or part of your living from the sale of copyrighted materials, I don't expect you to understand how this works...but you should still respect how it works. Do we not have enough "unemployed" people in this country?

Before you throw your two cents into a conversation, please take the time to fully educate yourself.

By the way, copyright infringement seems to run rampant on ebay...just saying but since you seem to "know it all" I'll let you just trust in what you "believe" rather than having retained the services of a copyright attorney (tongue in cheek).

Just because you are an "ebay buyer" does not mean you know anything about copyright. Obviously you do not!

Some years ago, a publishing company decided that my copyrighted works were "up for grabs" and I took real offense at that..how dare they think they could take food off of my table and money out of my wallet. I pursued the issue and you know what? I now own a mortgage free home. You betcha I took them to court!

In the end, it would have been cheaper for them to pay me my asking price. Instead it cost them a great deal..they paid a horrific fine, they paid me damages, they paid my attorney fees..hundreds of thousands of dollars! This isn't a joke. 

Copyright infringement is stealing. You may not like to hear that..but t hat's exactly what it is. Would YOU like to be stolen from? Would you like to have food taken our of your children's mouths? Would you like to have people take money out of your wallet? I doubt it. You'd call the police and scream!


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## christine 47 (Oct 7, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Unless you are sure that the copyright is "legally gone", you cannot make assumptions.
> 
> As for magazine patterns, the designer may still hold copyright, may have "lent" copyright to t he magazine or sold copyright to the magazine. The "sharing" of any copyrighted material is still copyright infringement.
> 
> ...


If this comment was made for my benefit I don't appreciate being told to "educate myself " on a topic before "putting in my two cents". In the UK it's a free country to pass a comment, and I don't need to be lectured at by you. I don't normally buy from eBay and my point was it seems as though many sources are flouting the copyright laws.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I'm so sorry that you don't respect copyright. Perhaps in your country it's "not big deal"...feel free to violate the law! Have a nice day and remember....the fruits of other labors are not free for you to pick.


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## Novasea (Nov 10, 2012)

How horribly rude. Such a shame to so vehemently express your opinions in such a way as to insult others. There is..thankfully, no copyright on being polite...so feel free to give it a try.


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## nbaker (Jan 30, 2011)

This is always a very hot topic. I congratulate courier770 for stating the law without interpretation. Folks, the law is the law. It may be different country to country and we just have to know the law in the country in which we live and follow it. Don't be offended when someone speaks the truth.


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## Novasea (Nov 10, 2012)

It is possible to express the truth without attacking and insulting individuals. Truth is not ever offensive. Rudeness always is.


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## E Christina Dabis (Mar 31, 2013)

jinx said:


> I believe you cannot print and share patterns that come from a magazine. It is wonderful when posting a picture to state that it is from a magazine and the issue of the magazine it is in. Links just take you to the site where the pattern may be for sale or free. Posting the link is fine as it does not give you the actual pattern.


Agreed.


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## christine 47 (Oct 7, 2011)

courier770 said:


> I'm so sorry that you don't respect copyright. Perhaps in your country it's "not big deal"...feel free to violate the law! Have a nice day and remember....the fruits of other labors are not free for you to pick.


You still haven't got the point, I didn't say I didn't respect copyright and peoples talents, what I actually said was I was surprised to receive copied patterns when I thought they were all original and also surprised to see photocopies of patterns being sold in a shop. Maybe you should read before ranting.


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## E Christina Dabis (Mar 31, 2013)

courier770 said:


> Most designers have no objection to their patterns being used to craft items for donation. In fact there are several designers who have created designs for just that purpose. Those patterns generally contain the warning that the pattern is for either personal use or for use to make items to donate to charity.
> 
> There seems to be a "them and us" mentality when it comes to copyright. Having lived on both sides of that fence, I've learned that each side must offer understanding and respect to the other.
> 
> ...


Your summary and detailed information on copyright is one of the best that I've seen. You apply it to most everyone's situation and you offer good suggestions for others to design patterns, too. Very encouraging.

Personally, I refuse to share copyrighted patterns, even if the 70 years has expired, because I do not know if the copyright has been sold/transferred and has extended the copyright limitations.

I justify my actions because, 1) I am in compliance with the laws, 2) I am paying the person who created a pattern that I admire, 3) the pattern adds value to my library of crochet patterns and books.

In fact, as I have posted before, I have indexed my library and included the "buy" price, and I also provide any 'sell' prices that I've found, too. By doing so, my heirs will know the value of the library; hopefully they will keep it, or at the worst, sell it at current rates.

Thanks again for the detailed and easy to understand laws.


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## NellieKnitter (Sep 10, 2012)

I think this is a great discussion! Courier770, we are all trying to educate ourselves about the copyright laws so that we don't break the laws. I certainly appreciate your contribution to the discussion--you helped us see things from your perspective.


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## nittineedles (Apr 14, 2011)

inishowen said:


> Thanks everyone. It's nice that we could discuss copyright without any unpleasantness.


Spoke too soon.


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## E Christina Dabis (Mar 31, 2013)

nittineedles said:


> Spoke too soon.


Where did you see any unpleasantness? I didn't see any.


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## Gypsycream (Nov 23, 2011)

This topic comes up quite often doesn't it? But its good that it does as its an education to those who ask.

I really don't mind that folk sell finished items, be it for charity or for profit, as long as they have purchased their pattern from me and not from someone selling it or sharing it. The way I see it is they purchased the pattern, yarn and notions, its their hard work creating the creature its their creature. I would mind a factory full of grannies knitting away from copies of the same original pattern lol! Its nice to be asked by a crafter if they may sell their work and I'm always flattered that they took the time to ask.

But when I hear of someone selling or sharing my patterns my blood boils, I feel as though I've been robbed and I feel very hurt at the same time.

Perhaps those selling or sharing their original pattern should give some thought as to the amount of work that goes into producing a design. I spend weeks getting a design just right, to look like I want it to look and for the directions to be as easy to follow as possible so that the knitter enjoys creating the bear or whatever. I do test knit after test knit, tweaking and often bining and starting again. I spend hours photographing the step by step guides. I send yarn and little presents to anyone who has kindly test knitted for me, I can't afford to pay the kind test knitter but I do respect the hard work they do.

A lot of the funds I make from my designs goes to a local cats rescue centre where I adopted my lovely cat Fred from, not all of it granted, I still need to purchase yarn and notions but a lot of it.

So when someone shares or sells their purchased pattern, well to me its stealing, stealing my time and hard work and stealing from the unfortunate cats.


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## Lorraine Botha (Feb 27, 2013)

Good question! Also, is copyright registered in one country automatically applicable to other countries as well?


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## Lorraine Botha (Feb 27, 2013)

Ok. I am sorry. I am only involved in this discussion because I really do respect the designer's rights. I am just so frustrated because I really would like to generate some income using my knitting talent without doing something illegal.


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## E Christina Dabis (Mar 31, 2013)

Lorraine Botha said:


> Ok. I am sorry. I am only involved in this discussion because I really do respect the designer's rights. I am just so frustrated because I really would like to generate some income using my knitting talent without doing something illegal.


Oh goodness. Don't be sorry. This topic comes up rather often and there are two groups: one that obeys the copyright law and its intent, and one who wants something for nothing. Generally, it seems that most of the people here have a keen sense of honestly and they buy their patterns.

Make your item, create your pattern, and offer the pattern for sale. Or give it away. But, either way: KNOW THAT YOU ARE WELCOME HERE!


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## Lorraine Botha (Feb 27, 2013)

I value the information you give. I have only one more question to ask please: I bought a pattern book and it gives the usual statement of not being allowed to reproduce the pattern. There is no further indication concerning pattern usage other than that the author has asserted the moral right to be identified as the author of this book. Does this mean that it may be used for financial purposes?


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## Lorraine Botha (Feb 27, 2013)

Thank you


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## suef3711 (Aug 30, 2011)

I understand the copyright law but it is amazing how many patterns are for sale on e-bay. How do they get away with it.


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## scorpian (Jul 19, 2012)

People sell used patterns on Ebay and also I brought a pattern thinking it was the original and it was a photo copy from a magazine! did not worry me too much the only thing I was annoyed about it should have said it was a copy and not the original as it was expensive, but I would not object to pay for postage of a pattern that has been copied on this site if I really liked the pattern!


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## sheildhall (Aug 24, 2012)

I break the law frequently, it seems. When I buy a pattern so that I do not ruin the pattern if I am going to carry it about I often make a copy of the pattern for myself only so that I can carry just the portion of the pattern that I am working on on a single piece of paper and not have to carry a book or several pages. When I have finished that part I throw the paper away as it is often creased, smudged and has hand written notes on it. I certainly do not share the copy with any one else, so I presume this is okay.


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## MrsC (Jul 10, 2011)

I was once told by a magazine distributor that once you bought the magazine, you owned it. You could do what you wanted with it and what was inside it. True? I don't know!


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## christiliz (Dec 20, 2011)

inishowen said:


> A few days ago I put some pictures of things I've knitted on the forum. I got a lot of requests for the patterns. All my patterns come from magazines. Here is my question. Am I breaching copyright if I copy patterns and send them to others? Or, when people ask for a pattern do these assume it's a free pattern? I'm confused, as other people seem to provide a link when asked for a pattern.


When I ask about an item posted on KP, I just want to know it's name and where it's from...a web site where you can buy the pattern, a book, pamphlet, brochure a magazine. Maybe it's from a free website such as "All Free Knitting" or "All Free Crochet", maybe from a site such as Lion Brand, Paton's or Red Heart. There are so many places to look...and so little time.


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## jannetie (May 30, 2012)

Lorraine Botha said:


> I also believe that it is not legal to just share patterns. Many bought patterns stipulate that you may use it if for yourself or for charity but should recognise the designer as the creator of the pattern. I fully agree. However, most patterns say that you may not use them for financial gain without permission from the designer or publisher. Here is my problem: I knit to earn extra income to supplement my very small pension. I have written/faxed/e-mailed numerous requests to try and obtain permission, without any success so far. I have not received any responses, let alone permission. Also, I wonder how many of those patterns are truly original.


Like you, I've wondered the same thing. If I purchase a pattern, I should be able to do anything I want with the finished product. As it turns out, I only use vintage patterns, so don't have to worry about permissions, but I've found those 'new' designers usually also have etsy or other shops where they sell their wares. And I've also found that many of the patterns are very close remakes of other patterns, whether they be from the early to mid 20th century or after 1970. I still have many pattern books from the 70s and 80s, and even when I knitted from them, more often than not I changed the pattern somewhat. I, too, knit and crochet to supplement my meager pension. Good luck, I hope you at least get some responses..


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## sassy22 (Sep 29, 2012)

I believe you can share the patterns just not sell them. Any item you make from a pattern is yours to sell if that's is what you choose to do.


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## betsyknit (Apr 4, 2013)

christiliz said:


> When I ask about an item posted on KP, I just want to know it's name and where it's from...a web site where you can buy the pattern, a book, pamphlet, brochure a magazine. Maybe it's from a free website such as "All Free Knitting" or "All Free Crochet", maybe from a site such as Lion Brand, Paton's or Red Heart. There are so many places to look...and so little time.


This is what I wanted to say......when I ask "could you share the pattern" all I want is the link to the site where I can purchase the pattern myself.


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## Lorraine Botha (Feb 27, 2013)

I think most of us understand that and is most willing to pay for the pattern.


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## betsyknit (Apr 4, 2013)

courier770 said:


> It's a difficult subject to navigate, I'll give you that. Though it is a subject with a clear and concise set of laws, not something that can be left up to the interpretation of laypeople.
> 
> I'm sure that most people mean no "harm" but harm does occur every day, due to ignorance.
> 
> ...


Courier770, thank you for your insights. You have obviously been involved with this on a level that most of us have not. You are right, the law is the law and there is no room for "well I think it should be this". And you were in my mind very civil until firmness was needed. Do you have a site of your patterns that can be purchased? I would love to see them.


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## pzoe (Mar 17, 2011)

Any lawyers out there for an opinion? 

Pzoe


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## moke (Oct 8, 2011)

you own the magazine, but you don't own the content..is how i look at it. you can give the magazine away, you can lend it to a friend. are you responsible for what they do with the content after you loan it, or give it to them? no. I do not copy patterns anymore. i do as jinx does. just give the issue, or the link. if i do make a photo copy it is for my own personal scribble use.


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## Gypsycream (Nov 23, 2011)

sassy22 said:


> I believe you can share the patterns just not sell them. Any item you make from a pattern is yours to sell if that's is what you choose to do.


No you can't share a pattern. You can sell the physical pattern, as in you no longer have it in your possession, but you most certainly cannot share a pattern.


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## bagibird (Sep 30, 2012)

Gypsycream said:


> This topic comes up quite often doesn't it? But its good that it does as its an education to those who ask.
> 
> I really don't mind that folk sell finished items, be it for charity or for profit, as long as they have purchased their pattern from me and not from someone selling it or sharing it. The way I see it is they purchased the pattern, yarn and notions, its their hard work creating the creature its their creature. I would mind a factory full of grannies knitting away from copies of the same original pattern lol! Its nice to be asked by a crafter if they may sell their work and I'm always flattered that they took the time to ask.
> 
> ...


I entirely agree with Gypsycream. I would never give away or sell a 
COPY of a pattern - if someone wants it, they should pay the designer for a copy. It's the designer's hard work and they deserve to be paid for it. Selling an original magazine, book or pattern leaflet seems OK to me. After all, many things we buy are covered by copyright, but we still dispose of them when we've finished with them. Novels are copyright, but they are still sold on car boots, second hand book stores, etc.

As for selling items made from patterns, there is a huge amount of conflicting advice around. My personal view is that, if a designer doesn't want me to sell things I've made, they don't want my custom. I don't buy their pattern - I'll always be able to find another which I can use as I want, sometimes better than the first I saw. I read a comment from a designer a few weeks ago which said that he/she didn't want items made from his/her patterns to be sold because the standard of workmanship may not meet his/her standards. I found the comment quite arrogant and resolved never to buy from him/her. There are so many patterns available nowadays that I know I'll find what I want, without risking breaking the law.


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## NY Hummer (Oct 16, 2012)

Lorraine Botha said:


> I fully agree and respect the copyright. That is why I was seeking permission but, as I had pointed out, how do you get that permission.


I can understand your frustration -
when this happens, I guess your best choice is to not use that pattern for selling items. 
For the most part, designers are wanting you not to sell/give away the pattern itself, but you can make the items and sell them. Although there are some that expressly state "for charity or personal use only." 
Even here on KP, we've had swaps where you make a dishcloth, for ex., and include the pattern. The first time I did this kind of swap, there were so many patterns I wanted to use, but didn't - because I realized I'd be breaking the copyright rule by xeroxing their pattern! 
[On the other hand, if it's a free pattern online, you can always just direct the person to that internet site to get the pattern themselves.]
I've never shared a pattern that I've purchased, either online or off. I feel that would be cheating the designer of a sale. 
[And, golly, how do they make any money by charging so little for a pattern?! $1 to $5 is such a small fee ~ many magazines you can't even buy for that price!!]


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## NY Hummer (Oct 16, 2012)

bagibird said:


> I read a comment from a designer a few weeks ago which said that he/she didn't want items made from his/her patterns to be sold because the standard of workmanship may not meet his/her standards. I found the comment quite arrogant and resolved never to buy from him/her.


I have to say my opinion on this comment: No, I don't feel that designer is being arrogant. S/he knows what work went into the design and how the finished product should look. It's kind of like when we were in school, and were told we should take pride in our work [aka: do a good job!] because you sign your name to it. Anything you do reflects back on you. 
So the designer just wants the knitted item to be reflective of her; she created it, so, she gets to say what anyone can do with it.


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## amortje (Feb 10, 2013)

Novasea said:


> The easiest thing to do is to learn knitting techniques...make your own designs and knitted items...don't worry about buying patterns...and then you can do what you want with the things you create as a knitter. It would appear that if you buy patterns you are restricted to knitting only for yourself..not for donation to charitable groups...neonatal units...shipping overseas etc etc. Neither can you make knitted items...using a pattern...and sell these items at craft sales to supplement your knitting hobby. As I said...learn the techniques and do your own thing!! Do not purchase patterns unless absolutely necessary.


I agree. For safety's sake making your own designs is the best option. Knowing some techniques will allow you to make your own creations and it wil give you satisfaction.


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## bagibird (Sep 30, 2012)

I take your point NY Hummer, and I agree that we should always try to achieve the best we can in our handiwork, but what I don't understand is why it's OK to make the item and, say, give it away, telling the recipient who the designer is. His/her name would still be associated with the item. Perhaps better not to publish the pattern if he/she is going to worry about what happens when someone uses it.


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## AmyKnits (Aug 20, 2011)

inishowen said:


> Thanks ladies. From now on I will just say the name of the magazine and the issue number.


I think this is the best option. This way we will know where to find the pattern and most magazines... even back issues.... can be purchased easily online.


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## ilmacheryl (Feb 3, 2013)

As a librarian who sends photocopies of articles to other libraries, I can send just a few from any publication newer than 5 years old. Older than that, I can send as many as I want. Of course, that is for libraries, so I don't know how that applies to individuals.


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## Dsynr (Jun 3, 2011)

I make up most of the stuff I make. This year, I've resolved to learn new techniques and I use these techniques in a project I make up as I go along. My trial-and-error method is certainly not for everyone, but if you are smart to make somebody else's pattern, you are smart enough to make your own, I say. I've gotten some unusual and very pretty stuff that way.
There's a site that gives a Knitting Calculator in which you type in your gauge, ndls, etc., and it generates a pattern based on your information. I use it as a shortcut a lot. If I don't like the way it turns out, I frog and forget and recycle the yarn/thread.
Unfortunately I don't own a camera that will download to the 'puter, so I can't post pics.


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## amberdragon (Dec 12, 2011)

would you share the name of the magazine with us?


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

inishowen said:


> A few days ago I put some pictures of things I've knitted on the forum. I got a lot of requests for the patterns. All my patterns come from magazines. Here is my question. Am I breaching copyright if I copy patterns and send them to others? Or, when people ask for a pattern do these assume it's a free pattern? I'm confused, as other people seem to provide a link when asked for a pattern.


I think it is impossible to post pictures of anything on this forum without others wanting the pattern to be shared. And worse yet they leave their e-mail addys for all to see. 
I would just post the link with the picture and leave it at that.


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## GoodyTwoShoes (Apr 4, 2013)

If you state the name of the pattern, the designer, and its source (book, website, magazine etc) aren't you giving the proper credit where it is due? Kind of like a footnote in a paper you write. Then the person getting that information can do what he/she will with it.


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## Ronie (Jan 21, 2011)

inishowen said:


> Thanks ladies. From now on I will just say the name of the magazine and the issue number.


I find it is best when showing items I made to include the name of the pattern.. That is usually enough for the person who wants to make it also to do a search and find it.. I think this is a great question because of the fact that magazines are shared all over the place.. you can get copy's at the Library, Doctors Offices and most lobby's have magazines to help you spend the time until your appointment. It is the act of making a 'copy' that is where it gets sticky.. so I if you are pressed even further you could give the name of the pattern and the magazine you got it out of.. just to be on the safe side.. Personally I feel that if you bought it then its yours to do with as you please but unfortunately not all people or lawyers feel the same..


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## jonibee (Nov 3, 2011)

inishowen said:


> A few days ago I put some pictures of things I've knitted on the forum. I got a lot of requests for the patterns. All my patterns come from magazines. Here is my question. Am I breaching copyright if I copy patterns and send them to others? Or, when people ask for a pattern do these assume it's a free pattern? I'm confused, as other people seem to provide a link when asked for a pattern.


Usually magazines have a website to get in touch with a department..they also have archives where things are filed and saved...you could give the name of the magazine, the month and year and sometimes they even number the magazine for reference..look at the inner page after the cover page and it usually states their position of copyright. Sometimes a picture of an item is worth a thousand words and the members are adept at spotting where that particular pattern is from..great detective work...


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## Sherry Ann (Apr 7, 2013)

This only applies in the US....I am not sure about other countries. I think the restriction on selling items made from a pattern is to stop the mass production of such items. This article goes on to explain that Etsy has ignored the First Sale Doctrine....but you can sell handmade items made from a pattern you purchased at other venues.

"Q. I made this really cute dress with a Simplicity sewing pattern, but the patterns says, Private Use Only, can I sell it?

Q. I made this really cute dress with Strawberry Shortcake fabric. The fabric says Intended for Personal Use only. Can I still sell it?

A. Yes. That little disclaimer means nothing, and in essence, goes against the First Sale Doctrine. As long as you are not duplicating the actual sewing pattern or printing bootlegged Strawberry Shortcake fabric, you have not violated the copyright."


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## NellieKnitter (Sep 10, 2012)

Gypsycream said:


> No you can't share a pattern. You can sell the physical pattern, as in you no longer have it in your possession, but you most certainly cannot share a pattern.


What about magazines and books we check out of the library? Are you saying that legally the only thing we can do with knitting publications we checkout of the library is read them and return them?!


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## Lorraine Botha (Feb 27, 2013)

Thank you very much for your input. I am certainly in agreement with everything you said. I do not object at all buying from the designer, even though it may be a costly business because of exchange rates. I see a designer as an artist. Each one places his/her own recognisable "stamp" on the article. Even if I might be able to create my own patterns, I doubt if I could be that smart in the same way. The usefulness of the pattern for my own purposes will now be my main consideration. Thank you for a wonderful discussion (probably not the end of it). I have learnt so much!


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## swampygirl (Nov 1, 2011)

This question always raises a lot of interest on KP. 
I keep out of the debates now.


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## vpatt (Dec 24, 2011)

Lorraine Botha said:


> I also believe that it is not legal to just share patterns. Many bought patterns stipulate that you may use it if for yourself or for charity but should recognise the designer as the creator of the pattern. I fully agree. However, most patterns say that you may not use them for financial gain without permission from the designer or publisher. Here is my problem: I knit to earn extra income to supplement my very small pension. I have written/faxed/e-mailed numerous requests to try and obtain permission, without any success so far. I have not received any responses, let alone permission. Also, I wonder how many of those patterns are truly original.


So if you knit a number of hats for your local hospital you should attach tags to each item to name the designer? (Or any charity you might knit for). I have never heard anyone say they do this. I don't mean to sound like it shouldn't be done......just wondering about it. Ive knit preemie hats for charity but I just knit little 'boggins without patterns.


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## his_rascal (Nov 26, 2011)

Maybe somewhere in any magazine it says something about copyright and items in the magazine.

Here's a link with lots of good info about crafts and copyrights: http://www.craftsandcopyrights.com/faq.html

I kind of look at it this way, it I wrote the pattern and wanted to give it away, that would be okay. But if I wrote the pattern and wanted to make money from the sale of that pattern, I wouldn't want people giving away.


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## dotcarp2000 (Sep 5, 2011)

inishowen said:


> A few days ago I put some pictures of things I've knitted on the forum. I got a lot of requests for the patterns. All my patterns come from magazines. Here is my question. Am I breaching copyright if I copy patterns and send them to others? Or, when people ask for a pattern do these assume it's a free pattern? I'm confused, as other people seem to provide a link when asked for a pattern.


Asking this question on KP is like asking for medical help on KP which is done from time to time. I would wager that none of us are physicians and if any of us might be an MD, that MD would tell you to see your doctor. Many of us are RN's and all of us should tell to see your doc for any medical problems. You can't be diagnosed on the internet.
Same goes for legal questions about copyright. Everyone of us has our own thoughts about what is legal and what isn't & should be directed to the appropriate person for those answers and I would guess that none of our KP'ers are lawyers. I will get some nasty remarks about what I've just said bec everyone thinks they know it all. But go to the expert to get the answers--not KP'ers


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## Dor (Jan 18, 2011)

I think you can share a pattern,but you cant sell it.It isnt yours to sell. Sharing is great.We all like this ,but should use it right


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## EqLady (Sep 1, 2011)

Just enter "copyright" in the search box for KP and you can access many discussions (including comments from lawyers) about why you can't share purchased patterns (including those in a purchased magazine unless it says otherwise) with all your friends. If people ask, just tell them it is a purchased pattern and if you like, include a link or information about the magazine. You should also be aware that some designers ask that you not sell products made of their patterns for profit.


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

dotcarp2000 said:


> Asking this question on KP is like asking for medical help on KP which is done from time to time. I would wager that none of us are physicians and if any of us might be an MD, that MD would tell you to see your doctor. Many of us are RN's and all of us should tell to see your doc for any medical problems. You can't be diagnosed on the internet.
> Same goes for legal questions about copyright. Everyone of us has our own thoughts about what is legal and what isn't & should be directed to the appropriate person for those answers and I would guess that none of our KP'ers are lawyers. I will get some nasty remarks about what I've just said bec everyone thinks they know it all. But go to the expert to get the answers--not KP'ers


I agree with you 100%.


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## NellieKnitter (Sep 10, 2012)

Let's face it, there is nothing new under the sun! So many designs are so similar and I am sure designers look at pictures of cut & sewn and knitted ready-to-wear and designer originals for inspiration. Knitters, crocheters, and seamstresses are all very creative people and are all capable of changing the design elements, the stitches, the yarn and needle size thus, creating our own "new and improved" designer original.

I buy a few patterns, magazines, books and use free patterns to knit for myself and gifts for family. I do understand the designers are working hard to make a living, the designs are their property and they want to be paid when we use their property.


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## Beetytwird (Jan 19, 2011)

inishowen said:


> A few days ago I put some pictures of things I've knitted on the forum. I got a lot of requests for the patterns. All my patterns come from magazines. Here is my question. Am I breaching copyright if I copy patterns and send them to others? Or, when people ask for a pattern do these assume it's a free pattern? I'm confused, as other people seem to provide a link when asked for a pattern.


copying and posting the pattern would be a copy right vioation, however, if you gave the name of the magazine and the month and year it was published, anyone could get the pattern for themselves.


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## Augustgran (Apr 16, 2011)

when my mom was alive we would split the cost of a pattern book and each would use it, many times back and forth were we breaking copyright as we both legally purchased the pattern.
ps any pattern i use I usually make a copy for myself as i am a "scribbler"to note changes I"ve made ,lengthening etc.


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## NellieKnitter (Sep 10, 2012)

NY Hummer said:


> I have to say my opinion on this comment: No, I don't feel that designer is being arrogant. S/he knows what work went into the design and how the finished product should look. It's kind of like when we were in school, and were told we should take pride in our work [aka: do a good job!] because you sign your name to it. Anything you do reflects back on you.
> So the designer just wants the knitted item to be reflective of her; she created it, so, she gets to say what anyone can do with it.


I don't agree, when I purchase a pattern, it is mine to use and create the knitted garment anyway I please and it reflects my skill and taste not hers. She doesn't get to tell me I must prove I am an expert knitter, must use a certain yarn and it must be a certain color!


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## margritz (Nov 11, 2012)

The patterns are protected by copyright so you can't put them on the internet. It's just like musicians can't xerox music they have purchased and give copies away. I think if you will just list the source of your patterns, interested knitters can then try to purchase what they want. Hope this helps.


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## Bitsee (Mar 11, 2013)

Lorraine Botha said:


> I also believe that it is not legal to just share patterns. Many bought patterns stipulate that you may use it if for yourself or for charity but should recognise the designer as the creator of the pattern. I fully agree. However, most patterns say that you may not use them for financial gain without permission from the designer or publisher. Here is my problem: I knit to earn extra income to supplement my very small pension. I have written/faxed/e-mailed numerous requests to try and obtain permission, without any success so far. I have not received any responses, let alone permission. Also, I wonder how many of those patterns are truly original.


Since I have quite a collection of vintage patterns, I have seen pictures and directions for some of the patterns in current magazines and on sites indicating they are original. Not actually saying so but letting readers believe they are original. Sometimes they even use the original photos. Don't know if copyright is being breached or not.


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## Ann DeGray (May 11, 2011)

inishowen said:


> A few days ago I put some pictures of things I've knitted on the forum. I got a lot of requests for the patterns. All my patterns come from magazines. Here is my question. Am I breaching copyright if I copy patterns and send them to others? Or, when people ask for a pattern do these assume it's a free pattern? I'm confused, as other people seem to provide a link when asked for a pattern.


When I posted a picture of an afghan I had made from a pattern appearing in the 1998 Holiday issue of Vogue Knitting I was inundated with requests for the pattern. (If you want to see why Search for "Be careful what you knit...more than one person may want to inherit it"). That pattern, by Nikkie Epstein, is copyrighted, and it would have been illegal for me to send the directions to anyone. Whether I sold the pattern of gave it away free it was not mine to share.

I was able to find 14 copies of that magazine on ebay and I posted that info on the forum. In less than 24 hours all magazines had been sold. I've always wondered if any KPers ever actually made the afghan but have never heard of anyone having done so.

Since I do not relish the idea of going to the Big House and stamping out license plates (I don't think they would allow me to have knitting needles and yarn there) I am careful not to break copyright laws.


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## Gypsycream (Nov 23, 2011)

Ann DeGray said:


> When I posted a picture of an afghan I had made from a pattern appearing in the 1998 Holiday issue of Vogue Knitting I was inundated with requests for the pattern. (If you want to see why Search for "Be careful what you knit...more than one person may want to inherit it"). That pattern, by Nikkie Epstein, is copyrighted, and it would have been illegal for me to send the directions to anyone. Whether I sold the pattern of gave it away free it was not mine to share.
> 
> I was able to find 14 copies of that magazine on ebay and I posted that info on the forum. In less than 24 hours all magazines had been sold. I've always wondered if any KPers ever actually made the afghan but have never heard of anyone having done so.
> 
> Since I do not relish the idea of going to the Big House and stamping out license plates (I don't think they would allow me to have knitting needles and yarn there) I am careful not to break copyright laws.


I remember your lovely blanket. And well done for not sharing your pattern as a designer I thank you


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## linzers (May 17, 2012)

Here's a twist on this discussion. I bought a pattern that has both a Copyright Notice and a Licensing statement. The copyright notice "reserves all rights", no copies of any sort can be made for any person other than yourself, whether free or for sale. Then there is a Licensing statement: "This pattern is for personal, non-commercial use only. You may use this pattern to make finished items for yourself or as gifts." Directions are then given to contact the the designer at the publishers website if there are questions. 
I think this is pretty clear. No copies are to be made for any reason, and the item made is not to be sold. 
There is apparently a licensing issue superimposed on a copyright issue in this case. The designer has gone to great lengths to protect her work. It must be respected.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

I made a sweater and matching hat from a Patons book. I would not copy and distribute the pattern so someone wrote Patons, and they were sent a copy of the pattern and now that pattern has been distributed to anyone that asked for it. Is that copyright infringement or was I wrong not to copy my pattern.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

chickkie said:


> I made a sweater and matching hat from a Patons book. I would not copy and distribute the pattern so someone wrote Patons, and they were sent a copy of the pattern and now that pattern has been distributed to anyone that asked for it. Is that copyright infringement or was I wrong not to copy my pattern.


You did the right thing.
If you (or the person) got it straight from Paton's, everyone else can do the same. :wink:
The more interest of the pattern straight to Paton's, may inspire them to reprint.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

galaxycraft said:


> You did the right thing.
> If you (or the person) got it straight from Paton's, everyone else can do the same. :wink:


Thank you! I have had a couple of messages that were not so nice about this.


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## cainchar (Dec 14, 2012)

In Canada you may legally copy up to 10% of a publication (ie: book or magazine for instance) for "instructional purposes." ***This includes helping others to learn something. Also- printed material that is older than 30 years may also be freely used and distributed. I'd imagine laws may differ between countries though- so know your own laws. People may of course share access info. for patterns etc. without a problem.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

chickkie said:


> Thank you! I have had a couple of messages that were not so nice about this.


I say...pooh pooh with them....ignore. :lol: 
Those are the type of people that want everything in life for free.
Not worth your time or energy.


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## Parrishththgt (Aug 20, 2012)

cainchar said:


> In Canada you may legally copy up to 10% of a publication (ie: book or magazine for instance) for "instructional puposes." This includes helping others to learn something. I'd imagine laws may differ between countries.


Ahhh Canada! What a rational country. We're lawsuit happy in the US.


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## bmeredith101 (Dec 3, 2012)

christiliz said:


> When I ask about an item posted on KP, I just want to know it's name and where it's from...a web site where you can buy the pattern, a book, pamphlet, brochure a magazine. Maybe it's from a free website such as "All Free Knitting" or "All Free Crochet", maybe from a site such as Lion Brand, Paton's or Red Heart. There are so many places to look...and so little time.


Not quite along the same lines and I don't know if this has already been mentioned (don't have time to read all the posts this am), but when I'm on the "free pattern" sites I copy the pattern to use. They often offer pdf files you can print so it seems they don't mind. However, when I was first starting to learn knitting I came across a pattern I really liked and shared my copied picture and pattern on this site. Kindly, no one said I shouldn't but I did a lot of thinking about it and came to the conclusion that the "free" sites are not free for them to run. I believe, please correct me if I am wrong, that they are subsidized by advertising. And don't the advertisers count the hits on the site to determine if they should continue with the site? So I would never do that again but post the link instead.
Beverly


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## elaineadams (Oct 17, 2011)

inishowen said:


> A few days ago I put some pictures of things I've knitted on the forum. I got a lot of requests for the patterns. All my patterns come from magazines. Here is my question. Am I breaching copyright if I copy patterns and send them to others? Or, when people ask for a pattern do these assume it's a free pattern? I'm confused, as other people seem to provide a link when asked for a pattern.


I contacted a magazine recently about this, and was told that so long as I am not selling the pattern, it would be ok to photocopy it and give it away. I also had explained that normally somewhere on the page header or footer there would be the name of the magazine, and as most of the patterns printed in magazines come from Sirdar or Patons or whatever yarn is recommended to knit the item, it is classed as free advertising for both the magazine and the yarn company. My friends often either tear out the knitting pattern from a magazine for me or they give me the whole magazine, minus the food recipes.


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## Linda333 (Feb 26, 2011)

I belong to a group of people who knit and crochet for charity; one group donates directly, the other group has a shop and all of the proceeds are donated to charity. 

I have contacted yarn companies (Lion Brand, Red Heart, etc.) as well as authors for patterns and always receive a response. I often receive permission to donate and/or sell when proceeds are for charity as long as I give credit to the designer. 

I have not, however, contacted magazines. Inside the cover or first few pages of a magazine you will find contact information. My advice is to go directly to the source for the correct and acceptable procedure regarding sharing of patterns as well as selling the items made from the patterns.


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## KnitterNatalie (Feb 20, 2011)

inishowen said:


> A few days ago I put some pictures of things I've knitted on the forum. I got a lot of requests for the patterns. All my patterns come from magazines. Here is my question. Am I breaching copyright if I copy patterns and send them to others? Or, when people ask for a pattern do these assume it's a free pattern? I'm confused, as other people seem to provide a link when asked for a pattern.


When links are provided, the pattern has usually been obtained online, hence the link source...sometimes these are free patterns, and sometimes they have to be purchased. If your patterns come from magazines, you can supply the name and date/month/season of the magazine, or state that it is no longer in print. The "no longer in print" is where the copyright business begins to get fuzzy, and I can't answer that part...but will be looking for the answer!! Happy Knitting!


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

KnitterNatalie said:


> When links are provided, the pattern has usually been obtained online, hence the link source...sometimes these are free patterns, and sometimes they have to be purchased. If your patterns come from magazines, you can supply the name and date/month/season of the magazine, or state that it is no longer in print. The "no longer in print" is where the copyright business begins to get fuzzy, and I can't answer that part...but will be looking for the answer!! Happy Knitting!


The magazine may be out of print, but the contents are still under copyright.
There are alot of "out of print" magazines available on E-bay from folks who no longer want them.


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## Dollychris (Dec 18, 2012)

Such conflicting information really. If you share a magazine or book with another surely you give permission for that person to use any pattern within the magazine or book? It really is a bit of a Grey area. I suppose magazines that have patterns, recipes etc., included therein give others the right to lend but not actually copy and share? Is just so confusing but what an excellent question - would love to know the legal answer.


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## bagibird (Sep 30, 2012)

http://www.craftsandcopyrights.com/faq.html

That's an interesting link. I'm particularly surprised by the answer to the question "Can I sell or donate multiple items that I make from a pattern?" The answer given is that a craft pattern "...implies that this permission is for one finished product for personal use. This includes a finished product being given as a gift..." If that's correct, you might as well throw away the pattern after you've used it once. Heaven help a parent with two children who both want the same item!! Or those who want to make items for charity....

I shall stick to buying from designers who gives permission to sell items - they clearly expect their pattern to be used more than once, too.


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## Judyh (Apr 15, 2011)

E Christina Dabis said:


> Where did you see any unpleasantness? I didn't see any.


I personally think that the following is "unpleasant" and offensive.

"Before you throw your two cents into a conversation, please take the time to fully educate yourself.
By the way, copyright infringement seems to run rampant on ebay...just saying but since you seem to "know it all" I'll let you just trust in what you "believe" rather than having retained the services of a copyright attorney (tongue in cheek)."

Just because you are an "ebay buyer" does not mean you know anything about copyright. Obviously you do not!


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## foxglove (Jun 17, 2012)

RoxyCatlady said:


> You can give the actual magazine or sell it to anyone you wish. You can loan it to them. You cannot make copies of any or all of the magazine and distribute them in any way.
> 
> So, it is legal to give your neighbour the magazine, but you cannot email it to your neighbour, because then it can be printed (copied) and that is not legal.


There are a number of people who regularly copy patterns from magazines etc. and sell them on e-bay for financial gain. I have also noticed that when a new magazine comes out there are people who buy them, and tear the patterns out and sell them on e-bay. By doing this they can get back sometime double or treble the cost of the magazine.

I object to this and complained to e-bay about this but got no response.

So beware when buying patterns on e-bay, make sure it is the actual pattern or magazine you are buying and not just a copy.


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## kanddmom (Apr 2, 2013)

My understanding is that here in the US copyright laws protect ONLY the written pattern. There is no copyright protection on selling any item MADE from a pattern. The item created is considered a unique creation, totally separate from the copyrighted pattern and can be sold as an original work. Yes, many pattern designers state you can't "sell" their work, but legally they can't do anything to you if you do. Other countries have different interpretations however, so you should check.

Here is the link to a discussion of these issues in Vogue Knitting. http://www.vogueknitting.com/magazine/article_archive/ask_a_lawyer_knitting_and_copyright.aspx

Knitting Daily has a FREE download on copyright info for knitters. http://www.knittingdaily.com/media/p/92593.aspx


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## Ritaw (Nov 25, 2012)

I am a new designer . I state on my patterns that it will be breaking copyright to sell, share the pattern . I know that sharing does occur and I do not have a problem where it is shared with people living in the same household.but o when it is blatantly doe with lots of people .
I also do not mind finished knitted items ring given to charity or sold as long as the seller does not go into mass production.

It is a difficult area but normally easily loved by contacting the designer or magazine in question and asking directly .

The copyng of patterns and selling the copies on is wrong , as is sharing said copies .. It is not right . 
Deigning is hard and takes time thus selling copies isan easy buck for the seller but not the person who had spent days designing it .


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## marion07 (Nov 26, 2011)

Go Tigers!! How about that baseball team!!


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

Every time this topic comes up I just shake my head and wonder why people just don't read the copyright and designer's note on the pattern they are holding in their hands instead of making this topic as clear as mud.


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## linzers (May 17, 2012)

kanddmom said:


> My understanding is that here in the US copyright laws protect ONLY the written pattern. There is no copyright protection on selling any item MADE from a pattern. The item created is considered a unique creation, totally separate from the copyrighted pattern and can be sold as an original work. Yes, many pattern designers state you can't "sell" their work, but legally they can't do anything to you if you do. Other countries have different interpretations however, so you should check.
> 
> Here is the link to a discussion of these issues in Vogue Knitting. http://www.vogueknitting.com/magazine/article_archive/ask_a_lawyer_knitting_and_copyright.aspx
> 
> ...


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## kanddmom (Apr 2, 2013)

courier770 said:


> ltyler65, your belief is wrong. Copyright automatically comes with the protection from having ones copyrighted material being used for the commercial/financial gain of another.
> 
> You cannot take the copyrighted song of another, record it and sell it..same thing. You cannot take a copyrighted book, turn it into a screenplay then a movie and profit from it..same thing.


The copyright laws here in the US do NOT protect you like you assume. Making an item from a pattern is not considered the same thing as singing someone else's lyrics. The person knitting up the garment has created a unique, and yes, original creation. No one else will make another exactly like it, yes? Their hands, their touch, and yes your pattern. But it is still considered THEIR work since they made the item. Your written work is well protected against mass copying and selling. But as of now you can't stop someone from using your pattern to create works for profit.


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## kanddmom (Apr 2, 2013)

Linzer,

If you read the Vogue article, you will see that the lawyer states <<Copyright protects the pattern itself but does not speak to the article made from the pattern. Check the pattern (or the book or magazine or other source from which you obtained the pattern) to see if the designer included terms limiting the use of the underlying article. The litigious designer you mention may have prevailed because her patterns contained this kind of prohibition, but there is no shortage of critics who will argue, vehemently, that a publisher's statement forbidding sale of the resulting garment is unenforceable.>> And it is interesting to note that the 'litigious designer' failed to give any details so her claim to legal victory could be verified. I have yet to read anything stating that a designer has been able to prohibit someone from selling items created from a pattern. If you have proof, then please share it.


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

kanddmom said:


> The copyright laws here in the US do NOT protect you like you assume. Making an item from a pattern is not considered the same thing as singing someone else's lyrics. The person knitting up the garment has created a unique, and yes, original creation. No one else will make another exactly like it, yes? Their hands, their touch, and yes your pattern. But it is still considered THEIR work since they made the item. Your written work is well protected against mass copying and selling. But as of now you can't stop someone from using your pattern to create works for profit.


That is not always true...there are many patterns that state you may not use their pattern for profit. You have to read the copyright of the pattern in your hand. It is not a one size fits all.


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## kanddmom (Apr 2, 2013)

PaKnitter, copyright is automatic. You don't have to register for it, you don't need to say it is copyrighted. It doesn't have to have a funny little symbol beside it. The fact that the person holding the copyright says you can't make your own creation from their written pattern to sell is not an example of copyright. Copyright only protects the written pattern. I agree it would be wrong to mass produce items based on someone's pattern, but I haven't seen any evidence of any court case finding in favor of the pattern designer. Consider how difficult it is for fashion designers to protect their designs. The courts have taken the line of reasoning that the person who creates a item has created an original work, even if it is a knock-off of someone else's idea.


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

kanddmom said:


> PaKnitter, copyright is automatic. You don't have to register for it, you don't need to say it is copyrighted. It doesn't have to have a funny little symbol beside it. The fact that the person holding the copyright says you can't make your own creation from their written pattern to sell is not an example of copyright. Copyright only protects the written pattern. I agree it would be wrong to mass produce items based on someone's pattern, but I haven't seen any evidence of any court case finding in favor of the pattern designer. Consider how difficult it is for fashion designers to protect their designs. The courts have taken the line of reasoning that the person who creates a item has created an original work, even if it is a knock-off of someone else's idea.


I'm not talking about the copyright but the added note from the designer asking not to use her pattern to make items for profits.
Other say you can if you include their tag, etc.


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## cindy krebs (Apr 18, 2013)

you can share your patterns as long as you give creadit to who wrote the pattern also if you are not making a profit on the pattern then its ok!


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

cindy krebs said:


> you can share your patterns as long as you give creadit to who wrote the pattern also if you are not making a profit on the pattern then its ok!


no, that is not ok. Everyone has a reason why they want free patterns and can justify doing it.


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## Gypsycream (Nov 23, 2011)

Cindy you cannot share a pattern, whether or not you make a profit or give credit to the designer. If you share a pattern then that person won't buy the pattern and the designer loses out.


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## E Christina Dabis (Mar 31, 2013)

sheildhall said:


> I break the law frequently, it seems. When I buy a pattern so that I do not ruin the pattern if I am going to carry it about I often make a copy of the pattern for myself only so that I can carry just the portion of the pattern that I am working on on a single piece of paper and not have to carry a book or several pages. When I have finished that part I throw the paper away as it is often creased, smudged and has hand written notes on it. I certainly do not share the copy with any one else, so I presume this is okay.


That is not a violation of the copyright.


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## E Christina Dabis (Mar 31, 2013)

MrsC said:


> I was once told by a magazine distributor that once you bought the magazine, you owned it. You could do what you wanted with it and what was inside it. True? I don't know!


Yes and no.

No, you cannot copy the patterns and give them away or sell them.

Yes, you may sell the entire magazine.


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## Alpaca Farmer (Jan 19, 2011)

If someone wants a pattern that is in a book/magazine, just reference that publication to them. they can find the book at the library, or a book seller.
You can lend a magazine. If patterns are free online, I would reference the site. Please do not make/give copies to anyone. I believe that this is the best way to avoid problems.

When I worked for a church, we were required to buy separate copies of any music that the choir used. We could not buy one copy and xerox it. If we had 10 choir members, we had to buy 10 copies. From one hymnal publishers, we could buy an annual "copy" license so that we could produce copies, but only for our own choir.l


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## linzers (May 17, 2012)

kanddmom said:


> Linzer,
> 
> If you read the Vogue article, you will see that the lawyer states <<Copyright protects the pattern itself but does not speak to the article made from the pattern. Check the pattern (or the book or magazine or other source from which you obtained the pattern) to see if the designer included terms limiting the use of the underlying article. The litigious designer you mention may have prevailed because her patterns contained this kind of prohibition, but there is no shortage of critics who will argue, vehemently, that a publisher's statement forbidding sale of the resulting garment is unenforceable.>> And it is interesting to note that the 'litigious designer' failed to give any details so her claim to legal victory could be verified. I have yet to read anything stating that a designer has been able to prohibit someone from selling items created from a pattern. If you have proof, then please share it.


I have not read the Vogue article yet, but I will. I have no proof of anything. All that I did was share the verbatim statement re: Licensing of the pattern, which followed the copyright info. If the copyright protected the designer then there would be no need for an additional "licensing". Would you agree? We have not addressed what a license means when it comes to publishing a pattern. Beyond what I have quoted, does anyone know? (that was why I posted it to begin with) 
Personally, I look at things like copyrights and licenses as red lights. Just as a red traffic light protects a person's right of way, copyrights and licenses are in place to protect a person's rights. The lawyers can use the court system to interpret and argue all these points to their clients' benefit. Why even go there? I would never wittingly infringe upon someone rights nor would I want anyone to compromise mine.


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## grammacat (Nov 30, 2011)

If it is a vintage magazine, the copyright (if there was one) has expired and the contents of the magazine are public domain. If does not state the pattern is copyrighted, it is public domain.


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## strangeturtle (Oct 13, 2011)

I once bought a pattern only to learn AFTER buying I was not to sell any item knitted from the pattern. I made a lot of changes to the pattern (better - IMHO)and then went on ahead. I do not see how a designer could dictate what you can do with a finished knitted item especially if you only make one. the yarn and time are your own and amount to much more than half of the item. If you buy a mass produced statue and paint it you can sell it as your own. Once you buy an item you can do anything you want with it except make exact copies of the item. With hand crafts it is NEVER going to be an exact copy


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

grammacat said:


> If it is a vintage magazine, the copyright (if there was one) has expired and the contents of the magazine are public domain. If does not state the pattern is copyrighted, it is public domain.


 everyone has a different version of what Vintage really is. There are time limits on vintage books too.


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## cherylthompson (Feb 18, 2013)

jinx said:


> I believe you cannot print and share patterns that come from a magazine. It is wonderful when posting a picture to state that it is from a magazine and the issue of the magazine it is in. Links just take you to the site where the pattern may be for sale or free. Posting the link is fine as it does not give you the actual pattern.


 :thumbup:


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## Linda6885 (Feb 13, 2011)

What you can do, it either provide a link to the pattern where it can be purchased, or downloaded free. Or provide the name, year of magazine and the name of pattern and designer. Then you are not violating any copyrights, and anyone here can find the pattern for themselves.



inishowen said:


> A few days ago I put some pictures of things I've knitted on the forum. I got a lot of requests for the patterns. All my patterns come from magazines. Here is my question. Am I breaching copyright if I copy patterns and send them to others? Or, when people ask for a pattern do these assume it's a free pattern? I'm confused, as other people seem to provide a link when asked for a pattern.


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## m2hvnfn (Nov 14, 2011)

I just recently mailed a magazine to another KP friend ... she just messaged me that she is mailing it to another friend and that person will send it back to me. I thought just passing the magazine along was okay since it is not a published one anymore.


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## Janina (May 2, 2011)

Novasea said:


> I am curious...can you share an entire magazine you have purchased..with you neighbor ..for example? You would then be sharing all of the magazine's contents..including the pattern.
> 
> What about selling used books, patterns and/or pattern books at yard sales?


I agree with you Nova. If I buy the same book or if I buy a book that one of KPs sell, like it happens often, why could I not...

Most of the time, there is a fine print saying you may use, sell your product or pass it on (or something like that) but as long as you give credit to the owner. That is what I do. Don't want to start an argument but I always say where the pattern comes from and I think it is ok this way.

Humm if I find something on Ravelry (free for me to do) - If I decide to make some of that item and decide to sell them, I think it is ok. Because if is not, why post it free? Go figure! You have to find patterns somewhere to sell some to make extra money. :shock: :?: :?: :shock: :!: :roll: :roll:


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

Selling the book/pattern is okay. Selling a copy of the book/pattern is not okay.


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## Janina (May 2, 2011)

chickkie said:


> Selling the book/pattern is okay. Selling a copy of the book/pattern is not okay.


But if you want the pattern of something I did, I cannot send you a copy? Does that mean just figure it out? So complicated.


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## E Christina Dabis (Mar 31, 2013)

Janina said:


> But if you want the pattern of something I did, I cannot send you a copy? Does that mean just figure it out? So complicated.


That's right: You cannot distribute a copy of the copyrighted pattern.

Figure it out? But you could provide them with the name of the publication, the date, the volume number, the issue number and/or the ISBN number so they can search for the book and BUY it themselves. Or, you could sell them your book.


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## betsyknit (Apr 4, 2013)

marion07 said:


> Go Tigers!! How about that baseball team!!


Noooo...... Go Cards!!


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## jinx (Feb 12, 2011)

How about them Brewers?


betsyknit said:


> Noooo...... Go Cards!!


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## donmaur (Mar 4, 2012)

yes you are breaching copyright if you copy or photocopy a pattern a link does neither so if the pattern is free and there is permission to use it most designers glady let you link back to the pattern but not copy it to give to others


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## betsyknit (Apr 4, 2013)

jinx said:


> How about them Brewers?


Brewers......? I don't know about that......seems the Cards did some sweeping recently up in Milwaukee... :wink:


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

E Christina Dabis said:


> Where did you see any unpleasantness? I didn't see any.


Check out Courier 770's remarks. She could have stated what she did without the snide and rude remarks she included. They were certainly uncalled for. No matter how upset a person is about a topic, it still is not necessary to be rude. Most people here are considerate and express their ideas and knowledge without having to be rude about it. Unfortunately, there are those few that just seem to have to be snippy in their comments which is downright rude and they are to be ignored. lol to all the KPers out there who are nice and considerate and can express their feelings without being rude.


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## martina (Jun 24, 2012)

Rudeness does not solve a problem, but just makes people angry. The best advice re. Copyright is to check with an expert in that field in your own country as laws do vary widely.


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## Kathleenangel (Dec 27, 2011)

Courier770. Thank you so much for this information. This has given us all a lot of knowledge that I am sure we just didn't even think about. There is no way I am talented enough to design and write down a pattern so you deserve every penny for what you do. I would also be very upset if something I have worked so hard doing has been stolen from you and then states it is their own pattern. I am a true believer in what goes around comes around and it will to them eventually. Maybe their work will all unravel or get felted or shrink.


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## Annetteb (Oct 10, 2011)

I spoke with a person who handles copyright in a university library and they stated that it is ok to copy 10% of a book or an article in a magazine unless the magazine is based on a special topic then it's ok to copy the whole magazine.

Hope that this helps.


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## E Christina Dabis (Mar 31, 2013)

Annetteb said:


> I spoke with a person who handles copyright in a university library and they stated that it is ok to copy 10% of a book or an article in a magazine unless the magazine is based on a special topic then it's ok to copy the whole magazine.
> 
> Hope that this helps.


What? You're in Australia, right? Maybe your copyright laws are different than USA and the UK laws; though I suspect not.

But, if what you were told is true, why would anyone copyright their published work?


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Annetteb said:


> I spoke with a person who handles copyright in a university library and they stated that it is ok to copy 10% of a book or an article in a magazine unless the magazine is based on a special topic then it's ok to copy the whole magazine.
> 
> Hope that this helps.


Maybe true for Australia.
The US library laws on copyright are just slightly different than the US copyright laws for the public.
The library has permission to copy the whole book/magazine for archival purposes (to preserve the data).
But (the last I knew), it is restricted to out of copyright dates (expired copyright).
Think 1800's early 1900's.


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## Annetteb (Oct 10, 2011)

E. Christina

What do you mean by what?


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## Annetteb (Oct 10, 2011)

In our case it is for student use as well.


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## Annetteb (Oct 10, 2011)

The person I spoke with handles the copyright for the library. The copyright is to cover the book or magazine. The auditors have just gone through the library to make sure that the copyright laws are being followed to the letter so what she told me is correct.


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## CAS50 (Mar 26, 2012)

Good question! I sell books on Half.com, and trade books at paperbackswap.com. I'm wondering how it is legal there?



Novasea said:


> I am curious...can you share an entire magazine you have purchased..with you neighbor ..for example? You would then be sharing all of the magazine's contents..including the pattern.
> 
> What about selling used books, patterns and/or pattern books at yard sales?


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Really, the only way to knit items to sell is to make up your own designs. Once you have knit for a while, you get the feel of how many stitches to cast on for a hat, what rib you want to do and for how many inches, or do a gauge for a sweater and figure the stitches for a basic pullover or cardigan, then decide whether to do cables, open work, etc, and design your own pattern that nobody else has copyrighted. May be a good idea to copyright it yourself, then go ahead and knit and sell. Some designs are so basic, like a plain slip over or watch cap, that nobody can claim the right of copyright, as they are generic. Just don't get on the wrong side of the copyright police, as anybody can sue anybody else for anything, and who needs the agita or expense.


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## Annetteb (Oct 10, 2011)

They are not copying a whole book but a chapter of a book or up to 10% therefore that is legal. However if more than a chapter or 10% of a book is copied then that is not legal.

It might be worthwhile to contact the copyright organization or a university in America as they would be dealing with copyright on a daily and get a definate ruling from them.


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## hgayle (Aug 22, 2011)

E Christina Dabis said:


> Where did you see any unpleasantness? I didn't see any.


The following is a portion of Courier770's post:

"Before you throw your two cents into a conversation, please take the time to fully educate yourself.

By the way, copyright infringement seems to run rampant on ebay...just saying but since you seem to "know it all" I'll let you just trust in what you "believe" rather than having retained the services of a copyright attorney (tongue in cheek).

Just because you are an "ebay buyer" does not mean you know anything about copyright. Obviously you do not!"


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Copyright comes with the AUTOMATIC protection of not having ones copyrighted material used for the commercial/financial gain of another. It doesn't have to be stated on the pattern!

I've tried to explain this with simple examples. You cannot take the copyrighted song of a songwriter, record it and sell the product without the agreement (usually a contract that involves royalties) of the copyright holder. Some designers have no qualms about their patterns being used for commercial purposes but it is up to the designer to waive that right, they are not required to.

This applies to ALL works that are copyrighted: songs, music, books, periodicals, pamphlets, instructions..the list is endless but the law is applied to all of them the same.

You may purchase a copy of a magazine but you do not own the copyrighted material that it contains. So NO you are not free to do with it what you want. Though you can sell it, you can loan it, you may NOT duplicate any of the content and distribute it.

It's perfectly legal to make a "working" copy of a pattern.

Copyright protects peoples livelihoods, it's as simple as that.


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## micra (Aug 11, 2011)

what about the patterns I find in thrift shops amI allowed to knit them and sell on then pass the patterns on to my friends or do I have to keep them or not buy them at all. I did find the bear pattern from some one who sells her patterns on here so can I make the bear then sell it????


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## maggieme (Jul 25, 2011)

In the middle of a conversation with four Women in our household....when our Dad had ENOUGH, he would say "How about those BlueJays"(a baseball team)


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

And here, when we had enough...we move on... :wink:


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

galaxycraft said:


> And here, when we had enough...we move on... :wink:


 :thumbup:


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## Hilary4 (Apr 26, 2012)

Annetteb said:


> They are not copying a whole book but a chapter of a book or up to 10% therefore that is legal. However if more than a chapter or 10% of a book is copied then that is not legal.
> 
> It might be worthwhile to contact the copyright organization or a university in America as they would be dealing with copyright on a daily and get a definate ruling from them.


We have similar rules here, but they apply solely to educational institutes and organisations, and the institute must maintain a register of what has been copied, how many copies and when - that is what the audit will have been about.

These rules don't cross over to our patterns!


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## Hilary4 (Apr 26, 2012)

CAS50 said:


> Good question! I sell books on Half.com, and trade books at paperbackswap.com. I'm wondering how it is legal there?


You can on-sell original books and leaflets, as long as you are not keeping an illegal copy for yourself.


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## 1953knitter (Mar 30, 2011)

Why not? You paid the cost of the mag., you should be able to do as you wish. Would you think about this before you shared a recipe you found in a magazine?


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## Hilary4 (Apr 26, 2012)

lindaspinney said:


> Why not? You paid the cost of the mag., you should be able to do as you wish. Would you think about this before you shared a recipe you found in a magazine?


Because you have bought the magazine - not the copyrights of the authors who are published in it.


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## TawnyaFletcher (Nov 14, 2012)

Lol. How 'bout dem O's!


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## TawnyaFletcher (Nov 14, 2012)

Though I can't validate or dispute any of the aforementioned, I do have a question that maybe you can answer. Sometimes when I'm looking up patterns on Ravelry, and the link is to a magazine, there is also the 'find in library near you' option. Not that I mind sitting in the library working the pattern, but was that their intention? Checking out the magazine isn't always an option.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Referring someone to a library to locate a copy of the magazine doesn't mean that you actually use the library copy. This gives you a chance to see if the pattern is within your expertise, will show other views of the item and if there are other patterns in the magazine that interest you. Then you can decide if you want to purchase a copy of the magazine.

Back issues of magazines are usually available from the publishing house, at a reduced price. Some yarn shops keep back issues of the magazines they carry and also sell them at reduced pricing.


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## NellieKnitter (Sep 10, 2012)

Mmmm.......and libraries have copiers. I am going to the library today and I am going to ask about their policies.


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## PauletteB. (Feb 7, 2012)

I agree to avoid copyright issues I would give the name of the magazine and the issue.


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## jinx (Feb 12, 2011)

It is hard to believe someone who claims to be an expert on copyright when they tell you in one email that their house is paid for and in the next email they tell you they are making a payment on their mortgage.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

NellieKnitter..as to libraries and copy machines. Some years back I knew a woman who designed counted cross stitch graphs. They were quite detailed and lovely...landscapes and seascapes. She had a book published of her beautiful creations. One day she caught a library aide at the local library, using the copy machine to make copies of her copyrighted graphs for a patron. Well you know what hit the fan! She never allowed another of her books to be placed in a library and the local library had to make changes in policy, very quickly.

Policy varies from library to library, though the law is very clear about this issue. Sadly, not all those who work in libraries are educated on copyright issues, though that is no fault of theirs. Budgetary issues mean that libraries often depend on aides, students and volunteers. 

The internet has brought a great many things to our fingertips. Just think about it...our mothers and grandmothers had two choices. They either purchased patterns/books/magazines or t hey created their own patterns.

Even free patterns are copyrighted and have very simple rules to follow...don't duplicate the pattern, simply pass the link on (websites get paid by advertisers per "hit")and do not use the copyrighted material for commercial purposes. I think it's pretty easy to live within those rules.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

Much of the information posted here is incorrect. If you want to know what is legal and not legal in the US go here. You can read the actual LAW, not someone's opinions and misinformation. You CAN sell as much as you want from a pattern. The items you make from a pattern belong to YOU, only the pattern itself is copyrighted (and ONLY if it has actually been registered with the copyright office can you take someone to court to sue them over copyright infringement). Copyright laws for books and music do not necessarily apply to patterns. Patterns are a set of instructions for a useful object, and instructions cannot be copyrighted the way music and books are. The protections for the designer are different than the protections for the musician. I have always respected a designer's patterns within the confines of the law. You are not allowed to give your friend your pattern to use, but you can knit her 50 sweaters from that pattern and give or sell them to her without a problem.
Please educate yourself from the actual laws and court cases. 
http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml


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## GrannyDonna (Feb 18, 2013)

I agree & don't understand why some knitters are very bold about requesting photocopies of obviously copyrighted material. Does it not occur to them that it's the same as stealing. And, if designers are not financially rewarded (& my understanding is that that remuneration is currently not over generous), they'll stop designing & there will be far fewer nice patterns to choose from?


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Template patterns cannot be copyright so I think you need a little more information. I retain the services of a copyright attorney. Even the US copyright, website can be confusing to a layperson. Patterns most certainly can be copyrighted. I hold copyright on many. 

Yes copyright that applies to songs, music, books, etc. is just as applicable to written and or charted instructions.

Retain the services of a copyright attorney before you try to interpret the law yourself. 

I've prevailed in copyright court.


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## NellieKnitter (Sep 10, 2012)

Hilary4 said:


> Because you have bought the magazine - not the copyrights of the authors who are published in it.


It is possible that the magazine paid or commissioned the knit designer to design an item for the magazine AND the magazine may own the copyright to the pattern. An employee of the magazine may have designed the knit pattern. Just a thought--may be worth asking the magazine for permission to copy their pattern or knit it for profit. There are all kinds of 
scenarios out there.


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## CAS50 (Mar 26, 2012)

Many people who have a library account "check out" books to download on Kindle or Overdrive. This is free, and you can keep a copy on your device for 3 wks. I have read some books that way that I would not normally buy.

You can also view some magazines this way, but often there is an ad that leads to a paid app, it is not necessary to pay for subscriptions, so beware of those pop-ups.

I do not have a Kindle, but I have the free app to use with my Amazon account and Samsung tab.



TawnyaFletcher said:


> Though I can't validate or dispute any of the aforementioned, I do have a question that maybe you can answer. Sometimes when I'm looking up patterns on Ravelry, and the link is to a magazine, there is also the 'find in library near you' option. Not that I mind sitting in the library working the pattern, but was that their intention? Checking out the magazine isn't always an option.


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## NellieKnitter (Sep 10, 2012)

PauletteB. said:


> I agree to avoid copyright issues I would give the name of the magazine and the issue.


I agree! And I vow to educate myself on this issue and not take the expert opinion of someone else as gospel. I also plan to increase my knitting and design skills.


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## NellieKnitter (Sep 10, 2012)

vjh1530 said:


> Much of the information posted here is incorrect. If you want to know what is legal and not legal in the US go here. You can read the actual LAW, not someone's opinions and misinformation. You CAN sell as much as you want from a pattern. The items you make from a pattern belong to YOU, only the pattern itself is copyrighted (and ONLY if it has actually been registered with the copyright office can you take someone to court to sue them over copyright infringement). Copyright laws for books and music do not necessarily apply to patterns. Patterns are a set of instructions for a useful object, and instructions cannot be copyrighted the way music and books are. The protections for the designer are different than the protections for the musician. I have always respected a designer's patterns within the confines of the law. You are not allowed to give your friend your pattern to use, but you can knit her 50 sweaters from that pattern and give or sell them to her without a problem.
> Please educate yourself from the actual laws and court cases.
> http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml


Thanks for the link!


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

Gypsycream said:


> This topic comes up quite often doesn't it? But its good that it does as its an education to those who ask.
> 
> I really don't mind that folk sell finished items, be it for charity or for profit, as long as they have purchased their pattern from me and not from someone selling it or sharing it. The way I see it is they purchased the pattern, yarn and notions, its their hard work creating the creature its their creature. I would mind a factory full of grannies knitting away from copies of the same original pattern lol! Its nice to be asked by a crafter if they may sell their work and I'm always flattered that they took the time to ask.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Once again this subject rages on. A great deal of misinformation is being perpetuated. 

As to magazines and the information contained within them. Magazines do not always "purchase the copyright of the information contained in them". 

I was a freelance writer for many years..being "paid" and giving up copyright are two very different things. 

As an example..let me cite the case of Dolly Parton and Whitney Houston. Dolly penned the words to "I will always love you", she recorded it first but retained copyright on it. Whitney Houston recorded the song and paid Dolly for the use of that song. Whitney made Dolly a lot of money on that song but she never owned the rights to it..Dolly did!

Look into the backround of the song "Bobby McGee". It was one of Janis Joplin's greatest hits but she did NOT own the copyright on it. It was and has been "rerecorded" by a variety of entertainers, none of which have had exclusive rights to the song..the copyright holder has always been paid.

Leeann Rimes, break out hit was a tune by the name of Blue, written by Willie Nelson..he retains copyright on that song. He originally wrote it with the intent that it would be recorded by the late, great Patsy Cline. The song sat for a great many years until Leeann came along.

Copyright is a very serious issue. It's how people make their livings, it's how they pay their bills and support their families.

I respect your right to make a living, to earn money to support not just yourself but your family.

We all need to be fairly compensated for our "work".

I wouldn't ask you to work for free, so please don't ask me to and please don't expect others to do it either.

You make take offense at my "hard line" on copyright infringement. I certainly don't mean to insult you.

I'm a really "law abiding" citizen and this past weekend brought it to a confrontation with my own, "Police officer" son. I had to follow him to a location and begged him not to speed...well of course he did and ended up having to pull over into a parking lot to wait for me to catch up. His excuse "everyone speeds Mom". I gave him a deadpan look and the age old wisdom of being a Mom...."so if everyone jumps off a bridge you would too?". He just blew air out of his nostril like a peeved off Golden Retriever!


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## grammacat (Nov 30, 2011)

and here when we have had enough, we click unwatch


chickkie said:


> :thumbup:


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Yes..sticking one's head in the sand is always a good plan!


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## CAS50 (Mar 26, 2012)

I wonder if sticking knitting needles in the sand makes them sharper?

We are supposed to do that with our garden tools.



courier770 said:


> Yes..sticking one's head in the sand is always a good plan!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Copyright infringement is a serious matter...it affects the income of others and although it may not "suit" your purposes, it may annoy you..it IS law. 

I have had no qualms about bringing the matter to our courts when I have been the victim.

It takes money out of the pocket out of another and should not be joked about. 

How would you like it if someone reached into your purse/wallet and took money out because they "thought" they should or could? I doubt you would stand by and do nothing! People have bills to pay, children to feed and support. Just because you "think" you have some God given right to their work product doesn't make it true.

If your employer told you that they were going to take their losses out of your pay check you'd scream.

Laymen's understanding of what copyright really means seems to advocate taking from someone else. Come on, we are adults here, we do know better! You don't get a "free pass" w hen it comes to stealing because of a pesky little thing called copyright.

It annoys the heck out of me that those offering their "take" on copyright, are people who do NOT make their living from copyrighted works. Who here has a copyright attorney? I do! I pay a lot of money for his professional advice. When I see people offering their opinions (unprofessional and unsolicited advice) it upsets me. Would you offer your "advice" if someone needed brain surgery? Would you profess to know more than someone who had made that t heir life study and profession? I doubt it!

What I have seen through the course of this thread is laypeople, with no knowledge or experience in the field of law, offering opinions that are so far off base it isn't even funny. This is a matter of law, not opinion! Just because you knit does NOT make you an expert in this field...take offense if you want but that's what is going on here..people with absolutely no experience in the field of law offering their own "home grown" advice.

I've never heard such bad advice given in all of my life, nor have I heard so many "mis truths".

You may NOT in any way shape or form duplicate nor distribute the copyrighted works or another. You may not use the copyrighted works of another for financial gain without permission of the copyright holder and just in case you were wondering, you better have that permission in writing..make sure it is notarized and witnessed too. 

I found a woman at a craft show selling items she made from the copyrighted works of a designer....I decided to act like a big "fan" and purchase a set of items, even asked her to pose holding the items so that I could send a photo to the person I was sending the set to, so she could see who knitted it. I got the woman's card, a schedule of the events she was going to take part in and I contacted the copyright holder. 
The copyright violator found herself in court and it cost her dearly!

There are "eyes" out there watching what you do.

I learned years ago that it's wrong to take what doesn't belong to you. You can "justify" it all you want but it's still wrong.

Perhaps what I say has hit a "nerve" with some people. Spend months of your life designing something and see how you feel when the fruits of your labor are "shared" or used to profit by another. You'll find that when the shoe is on the other foot it tends to not fit very well and "pinches".


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## greanise (Dec 28, 2012)

courier770 said:


> This is a sore subject. I hold copyright on many patterns. Patterns that appear in magazines ARE copyrighted. You may NOT duplicate or distribute the copyrighted material of another in any form! That is copyright infringement.
> 
> You MAY however lend your copy of the magazine to another, with the understanding that no copy will be made. You can even sell your copy of the magazine.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## greanise (Dec 28, 2012)

sassy22 said:


> I believe you can share the patterns just not sell them. Any item you make from a pattern is yours to sell if that's is what you choose to do.


As eloquently stated earlier (and as someone who also designs patterns...from my own imagination I may add, not rehashing old patterns)...It is NOT ok to sell your items or to share the patterns...just think about it, I spend weeks of my time, money: on yarn/test knitters/fees to my Etsy shop etc..so if I sell a pattern to you do you really think it is ok to then share it with innumerable others?..these are my potential customers and if every one did that us designers would only ever sell one copy of each of our patterns...why would anyone bother to design in the first place?...As for selling stuff, I personally do state on mine that I don't mind the buyer making and selling up to 6 items per calendar year either for charity or personal profit, at fayres etc but not in shops or online, as long as they give me credit as the designer and do not try to pass the design off as their own....if this is not stated then it is automatically forbidden in the copyright. Many pattern designers also sell their own items so you would be infringing on their rights as a seller too.

In summary...if YOU didn't design it then it ISN'T YOURS...you have just purchased the right to make it for yourself or as a gift, not to profit from....I think one of the main problems here is that people think patterns (knitting/crochet/sewing) are the same as recipes...they are not (and having said that even recipe books have copyrights!!) So, I respectfully ask that you don't flout the copyright laws..if you arn't happy with that then I'm afraid you will just have to design for yourself... :!:


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## greanise (Dec 28, 2012)

dotcarp2000 said:


> Asking this question on KP is like asking for medical help on KP which is done from time to time. I would wager that none of us are physicians and if any of us might be an MD, that MD would tell you to see your doctor. Many of us are RN's and all of us should tell to see your doc for any medical problems. You can't be diagnosed on the internet.
> Same goes for legal questions about copyright. Everyone of us has our own thoughts about what is legal and what isn't & should be directed to the appropriate person for those answers and I would guess that none of our KP'ers are lawyers. I will get some nasty remarks about what I've just said bec everyone thinks they know it all. But go to the expert to get the answers--not KP'ers


Pretty poor analogy I'm afraid to say...medical care that risks lives being compared to copying knitting patterns? really??..No I am not a lawyer however I am a pattern designer who for many years had a tapestry design business and it was part of mine (and most serious designers) duty to study the laws of copyright, so you can be pretty sure we DO know what we are talking about. (However, I wouldn't get any of us to represent you in a court of law for murder..lol) 
BTW..UK laws pretty similar to USA if anyone's wondering...


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## greanise (Dec 28, 2012)

kanddmom said:


> The copyright laws here in the US do NOT protect you like you assume. Making an item from a pattern is not considered the same thing as singing someone else's lyrics. The person knitting up the garment has created a unique, and yes, original creation. No one else will make another exactly like it, yes? Their hands, their touch, and yes your pattern. But it is still considered THEIR work since they made the item. Your written work is well protected against mass copying and selling. But as of now you can't stop someone from using your pattern to create works for profit.


So you are saying that if I want to record 'My Way', with a voice completely different to Sinatra's and pop a harmonica on it, I don't have to pay royalties because I've made it 'my own'??...think about it please...If you are using my pattern and you knit it in bright pink instead of blue...it is STILL., my pattern....

:!:


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

snip<You buy a home, you toil to pay it off, you hold the deed on the property. Along comes a neighbor that decides he/she, wants to move the fence line over a few feet so they can have more room. Would you stand for that? Probably not. Copyrighted material is "owned" by the copyright holder, it cannot be duplicated nor distributed (even for free)without the permission of the copyright holder./snip>

We have a client dealing with this issue right now and it is getting nasty. He bought 60 acres and the neighbor is over on his property with their trees which he wants to remove. When they spoke about it the neighbor's attitude was you have 60 acres... 
what does it matter if I'm over on your property. You aren't using every inch of it?
Those trees would come down not because of the trees but the neighbor's attitude if it was me. Or he could buy the piece of ground he is using and pay taxes on it.


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## greanise (Dec 28, 2012)

PaKnitter said:


> snip<You buy a home, you toil to pay it off, you hold the deed on the property. Along comes a neighbor that decides he/she, wants to move the fence line over a few feet so they can have more room. Would you stand for that? Probably not. Copyrighted material is "owned" by the copyright holder, it cannot be duplicated nor distributed (even for free)without the permission of the copyright holder./snip>
> 
> We have a client dealing with this issue right now and it is getting nasty. He bought 60 acres and the neighbor is over on his property with their trees which he wants to remove. When they spoke about it the neighbor's attitude was you have 60 acres...
> what does it matter if I'm over on your property. You aren't using every inch of it?
> Those trees would come down not because of the trees but the neighbor's attitude if it was me. Or he could buy the piece of ground he is using and pay taxes on it.


 :thumbup:


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## Mariette EDE (Jul 6, 2012)

I'm not ofe with the copy right act either as are a lot of people I'm sure. Thus this discussion is very useful.


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## Bitsee (Mar 11, 2013)

PaKnitter said:


> snip<You buy a home, you toil to pay it off, you hold the deed on the property. Along comes a neighbor that decides he/she, wants to move the fence line over a few feet so they can have more room. Would you stand for that? Probably not. Copyrighted material is "owned" by the copyright holder, it cannot be duplicated nor distributed (even for free)without the permission of the copyright holder./snip>
> 
> We have a client dealing with this issue right now and it is getting nasty. He bought 60 acres and the neighbor is over on his property with their trees which he wants to remove. When they spoke about it the neighbor's attitude was you have 60 acres...
> what does it matter if I'm over on your property. You aren't using every inch of it?
> Those trees would come down not because of the trees but the neighbor's attitude if it was me. Or he could buy the piece of ground he is using and pay taxes on it.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## coolbreeze (Nov 29, 2011)

Wow there is so much on this topic.Don't think most people copy patterns in a cruel way, think they just not informed so much on this subject.Thanks for sharing their is a lot to think about on this subject. Happy yarning,:lol:


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## nuthouse (Oct 30, 2012)

Gypsycream said:


> I really don't mind that folk sell finished items, be it for charity or for profit, as long as they have purchased their pattern from me and not from someone selling it or sharing it. The way I see it is they purchased the pattern, yarn and notions, its their hard work creating the creature its their creature. I would mind a factory full of grannies knitting away from copies of the same original pattern lol! Its nice to be asked by a crafter if they may sell their work and I'm always flattered that they took the time to ask.


This seems to be a very commonsense answer that would satisfy both parties.

:thumbup: :thumbup:


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## nuthouse (Oct 30, 2012)

bagibird said:


> http://www.craftsandcopyrights.com/faq.html
> 
> That's an interesting link. I'm particularly surprised by the answer to the question "Can I sell or donate multiple items that I make from a pattern?" The answer given is that a craft pattern "...implies that this permission is for one finished product for personal use. This includes a finished product being given as a gift..." If that's correct, you might as well throw away the pattern after you've used it once. Heaven help a parent with two children who both want the same item!! Or those who want to make items for charity....
> 
> I shall stick to buying from designers who gives permission to sell items - they clearly expect their pattern to be used more than once, too.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: or will just design my own!!!


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## Bitsee (Mar 11, 2013)

nuthouse said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: or will just design my own!!!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: That's what I started doing.   I do have questions. What about all these st pattern books I have purchased over the many years of yarning? I make my own(?) designs, can I use the st pats more than once or should I just throw the books away when I have used the st pats? If I use written or oral instructions to learn a new method, do I have to forget I learned it and not use it again after I have made one project, like a sweater or a pair of socks? If this is the case, there are a LOT of designers out there who are in deep dodo. Just saying....


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## SouthernGirl (Dec 28, 2011)

I have a totally different question.

I respect the time and effort of designers and understand and respect that they have made each pattern.

My question is totally different.

If a designer designs a pattern and give the pattern away for free, can you sell the products? For example, a designer has a free pattern but says you can sell your finished products at local craft shows but not on Etsy. Do they hold a copyright for that?

If you take the original design and modify it to something that you like better, how does that work?

I read this from VJH1530's site http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml

False claim: 
This pattern may not be used to make items for sale 
To be used for personal or charitable purposes only
This pattern may be used to make items for your own personal use, for gifts or charitable donations. 
Items sewn from this pattern are not to be sold commercially without the express permission of the pattern creator
And why not? Whether these statements are on the web site, in a magazine or even printed on the pattern, these statements are not enforceable. And, why do they bother? These people are in the business of selling patterns. If they make and sell articles from their patterns and they do not want competition, then stop selling the patterns. Otherwise, why don't they just shut up?
We cannot locate a single federal lawsuit that has gone to trial where someone has been sued over the use of a pattern. Consider the millions and millions of patterns that have been sold in the last sixty years plus and not one lawsuit? It certainly cannot be because purchasers are strictly following the demands of the pattern designers/manufacturers. Patterns designers/manufacturers do not have the legal right to make many of the demands that they make.
Of the major pattern companies, Simplicity, Butterick, McCalls and Vogue, not one has posted on their web sites anything remotely concerning customer limitations on the use of their patterns. Why do you suppose that is? They know they cannot legally restrict the use but they will tell you differently if you email them. The pattern companies are in the business of selling patterns and the great majority of them routinely lie about the use of those patterns.
Pattern manufacturers and designers do not have the statutory right to control items are made from their patterns or what is done with these items. See the Supreme Court quote above from Quality King Distributors, Inc. v. Lanza Research Int. Imagine purchasing a book on how to build a shed in your back yard from your local hardware store. The book certainly has plans (patterns) and instructions and is copyrighted. Do you expect to have to get permission from the hardware store, the lumberyard, the paint store and the book publisher before you build the shed? Of course not. And then ask for permission to post a picture of this shed on Facebook? Of course not. It is YOUR shed.



vjh1530 said:


> Much of the information posted here is incorrect. If you want to know what is legal and not legal in the US go here. You can read the actual LAW, not someone's opinions and misinformation. You CAN sell as much as you want from a pattern. The items you make from a pattern belong to YOU, only the pattern itself is copyrighted (and ONLY if it has actually been registered with the copyright office can you take someone to court to sue them over copyright infringement). Copyright laws for books and music do not necessarily apply to patterns. Patterns are a set of instructions for a useful object, and instructions cannot be copyrighted the way music and books are. The protections for the designer are different than the protections for the musician. I have always respected a designer's patterns within the confines of the law. You are not allowed to give your friend your pattern to use, but you can knit her 50 sweaters from that pattern and give or sell them to her without a problem.
> Please educate yourself from the actual laws and court cases.
> http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml


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## GrannyDonna (Feb 18, 2013)

You can sell books or magazines & you can lend them as long as you don't copy the contents. You can make a photocopy of a pattern you own (because carrying a copy around is easier than carrying a book or magazine & you can write on it as you see fit) because you have the legal right to use that pattern (having purchased that right). If you sell the book or magazine, you cannot keep a copy for yourself because you have solid your right go use those patterns.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

GrannyDonna said:


> You can sell books or magazines & you can lend them as long as you don't copy the contents. You can make a photocopy of a pattern you own (because carrying a copy around is easier than carrying a book or magazine & you can write on it as you see fit) because you have the legal right to use that pattern (having purchased that right). If you sell the book or magazine, you cannot keep a copy for yourself because you have solid your right go use those patterns.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Jenval (Sep 18, 2012)

courier770 said:


> Copyright infringement is a serious matter...it affects the income of others and although it may not "suit" your purposes, it may annoy you..it IS law.
> 
> I have had no qualms about bringing the matter to our courts when I have been the victim.
> 
> ...


Courier 770 Thank you I have read all the threads on this subject you have given a very clear understanding of copyright for me anyway thank you. I have always thought about it like this (If in doubt about something don't do it until you researched and have all the information) as to be taken to court for breaking copyright laws is not worth it so don't take the risk. Most designers will allow you to knit there patterns for charity, I always ask permission especially if I use that one pattern a few times they have all said yes. I always get a response from them, designers put so much time into making patterns I have such respect for all of them, as for me I don't have the time to design so I am very grateful to others who do so I can buy and use there patterns for family friends and charity.


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## inishowen (May 28, 2011)

I don't think Courier 770 is on this forum any more.


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## chickkie (Oct 26, 2011)

inishowen said:


> I don't think Courier 770 is on this forum any more.


she is still a member - just hasn't posted lately.


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## inishowen (May 28, 2011)

Not since Nov 18th. She was a prolific poster. I wonder what happened to her.


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## gdoyle (Oct 12, 2013)

not being a lawyer, but i think if you were to alter the pattern in some way to your liking, you would then not be held to that copyright and would be able to sell the item. at least that is how i heard it is done. am i correct?


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## akamamavic (Dec 5, 2013)

I believe you are allowed to photocopy the pattern from the book or magazine TO USE YOURSELF for notes/doodles/highlighting/changes you need to do while knitting the pattern.


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