# Comparing Brother 830 vs 860 models



## Azzara (Jan 23, 2014)

Does anyone have a link for a site that lists (for comparison) the features and abilities of these Brother machines?

The two machines I am most curious about are the KH 830 and the KH 860 (both machines have ribbers)

What would be the benefit or extra ability gained by owning both?

Elizabeth


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## GrammaAnn (Dec 16, 2011)

Here is a site to compare them. http://www.aboutknittingmachines.com/BrotherPunchcardMachines.php The 860 seems to have a lace carriage - other wise very much the same machine. Ann


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## Azzara (Jan 23, 2014)

Thanks Ann,
I saw that page but it only confused things for me. I own both of those machines. The descriptions don't fit my machines and the top section of the chart and the lower descriptions don't exactly agree with each other either. 

My 830 does come with a lace carriage, there is a bracket for it in the lid and the manual talks about it. Even though the chart says differently, my 860 doesn't have a lace carriage and there is no spot to store one in the 860 lid. An option on that model perhaps? I even went as far as checking that I had the lids on the right machines.

The reason I am looking into this is that I hoped the 830's lace carriage would work on the 860 too but it doesn't seem to. 
The 860 is easier to work which leads me to believe I have a very early 830 model and I wanted to do my lace on the easier to use machine.


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## GrammaAnn (Dec 16, 2011)

That is interesting - perhaps the info is not 100% correct on that site. I have relied on it but never know. Ann


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## Entity (Sep 13, 2011)

I have the kh860. Although, it's still under the bed, I can tell you that it came with a lace carriage.

Both the kh830 & 860 can do normal lace and fine lace. The kh860 is also capable of doing thread lace or punch lace, whereas, the kh830 cannot. I'm not very sure about this since I don't have the 830 KM and only have its manual to use as reference. I do know for sure that the kh820 do not have this capability. 

Thread lace (or punch lace) does not require to use the lace carriage. It's a feature that is built into its main carriage.

If these are the only 2 machines you own, I would suggest to keep both for now. Having a 2nd machine for back up is always a good idea. Sometime, I would be working on a lengthy project with 1 machine and something came up which I would be using the 2nd machine to work on it. 

If later on, you're able to upgrade with a later model KM, you can get rid of the kh830. Keep the 860 as a back up. That's what I'm doing. My main KM is the kh965 which is an electronic. I have the kh860 plus some other models as 2ndary use and back up.


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## Azzara (Jan 23, 2014)

I do think the site is correct in what it says Ann.
There are just so many details with these machines that it just can't cover them all, but what it says is correct.

I am still wondering about this KM 860 of mine. If it is suppose to have a lace carriage, what model was it and where does it store? etc. Might also be nice to figure out where it went...lol


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## Azzara (Jan 23, 2014)

KP people are so helpful.
Thank you.


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## Entity (Sep 13, 2011)

Azzara said:


> I am still wondering about this KM 860 of mine. If it is suppose to have a lace carriage, what model was it and where does it store? etc. Might also be nice to figure out where it went...lol


Here's an old eBay listing (bottom link) that showed the whole machine set up for the Brother kh860. The lace carriage is usually placed on the lid. On the photo of this listing, the lace carriage is located at the bottom right.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brother-KH-860-Punch-card-Knitting-Machine-with-KL-116-Knitleader-boxed-/230928991320?nma=true&si=oEBv0SWaQhud%252BgqbyBKME%252FZo3T8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

If you still have its manual, it should show the same as well. If not, you can download one at this link for free: 
http://machineknittingetc.com/brother-kh860-thru-kh891-user-guide.html


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## RhondaStech (Jan 27, 2013)

I also have an 860. It came with a lace carriage. The lace carriage is stored at the far right on the lid. Did you purchase both machines from the same place? Maybe the lace carriage for the 860 got placed in the wrong case by mistake

Rhonda


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## Rita in Raleigh (Aug 20, 2011)

Here is another site for comparing brother (or Knitking) knitting machines
http://daisyknits.com/bcompatibility.htm

Rita


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## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

Here is yet another site for you to look at....
http://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/KNITTING-MACHINES-THE-BROTHER-RANGE-EXPLAINED-/10000000002191649/g.html


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## Rita in Raleigh (Aug 20, 2011)

The uk site and the aboutknittingmachines site seem to have copied each other or one copied from the other. I don't know who published the info first, but the aboutknittingmachines is certainly stuck in an error of stating the newer machines were made in 1976 or 1978. Check the dates on the daisyknits site.


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## iiwoody (Nov 3, 2011)

Although some machines share numbers, it depends on what market the machine was made for. It's been so long ago since I've had my shop, but I remember a customer coming in saying she had an 890 or an 892 with a built in knitleader. I didn't believe that it was a brother because that machine in the US had KnitKing on it and it was a KK93. Found out from my distributor that yes, it was a brother and it was purchased in Germany. This woman's husband was in the army and they were stationed in Germany when she purchased it. Brother sold different machines to different markets. There was a brother that was a pale aqua, (it may have been the 860) and it did not come with a lace carriage. It was available but this machine (in the U.S.) was an entry level machine and to make it cheaper than the 890 at the time, they took out the lace carriage, rails and some of the punch cards and made them an extra purchase item. I'm not sure if the machine had a place for the lace carriage in the lid though. We're talking 1989 here, been a while. 
After looking over that chart, I don't think it's very accurate. It's close but there are some things on there I disagree with (things that I do remember).


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## MKEtc.com (Aug 14, 2013)

Agree with iiwoody 

There were a lot of lesser known models in the 860 - 894 series with varing options. Some of the differences were very minor if any. There seems to be no difinitive place to confirm any information. Unfortunately, when something gets posted like a list, a lot of people copy and paste it to their sites and it becomes 'fact'. Form there it spreads. Even the Wikipedia list of machines has big errors. I have found a lot of misinformation in some of the lists as iiwoody has said. Like the TV comercial - I saw it on the internet - it must be true. Most of us are just doing the best we can to revive information that is getting harder to get.

Having both the KK91 and KK93 she is also right. The KK91 was equal to the KH891 including the manual. The KK93 was equal to the KH893 which was only sold in Europe as far as I could find out. KH893 is a common machine in Europe/Russia however I have never come across one in the US. There was also a KH894.

We were in Germany last year and visited the Knitting Instutute of Berlin. Had a lodg talk with the owner. Saw models that were never available in the US and some of our models were never available in Europe.


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## susanjoy (Aug 13, 2013)

This website has a lot of information about Brother machines:

http://www.scanthecat.com/html/knitting_machine_faq_s.html

Hope you find it useful.


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## Azzara (Jan 23, 2014)

That FAQ page is very entertaining.


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## 30Knitter (Apr 9, 2012)

One of the differences between the 830 and 860 is the back rail. The 860 has a slotted rail and the 830 doesn't. Garter carriages may not work on the 830. I'm going to be testing one out soon. I have the extra rails, etc. The carriages for the 830 and 860 may be different. There are pink/orange cams under the carriage that bring the end needles to "D" position when patterning, the original 830 carriage can't do that, you have to do that manually. I have my original 830 carriages, and well as a set of 840 carriages. The 840 has the cams.


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## kat79 (Jan 31, 2016)

I know this is an old thread now but I've been working on a kh830 recently that was bought new by the previous owner so had the original manual, which does include a lace carriage, the lace carriage I got with the machine is very basic and when I run it across the bed it doesn't do anything I have compared it to one on sale on eBay and its identical so it is the correct one, I am going to try my 891 lace carriage on it tommorow and if it works I will be replacing the old with a new one will take pics tommorow comparing the two carriages if that's any help


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## jaysclark (Jan 26, 2013)

kat79 said:


> I know this is an old thread now but I've been working on a kh830 recently that was bought new by the previous owner so had the original manual, which does include a lace carriage, the lace carriage I got with the machine is very basic and when I run it across the bed it doesn't do anything I have compared it to one on sale on eBay and its identical so it is the correct one, I am going to try my 891 lace carriage on it tommorow and if it works I will be replacing the old with a new one will take pics tommorow comparing the two carriages if that's any help


The Brother lace carriage should engage with the timing belt and, depending on machine, it uses punchcards or electronic patterns.

You need to start the lace carriage on the left extension rail


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## kat79 (Jan 31, 2016)

jaysclark said:


> The Brother lace carriage should engage with the timing belt and, depending on machine, it uses punchcards or electronic patterns.
> 
> You need to start the lace carriage on the left extension rail


Hi I am totally mystified by the gremlins in my 830 ( Bertie) I tried the easier stuff first / tuck skip fairisle and rarely the carriage goes across and puts all the needles in st st position but continues patterning as normal after, I have done lace on my 891 for years successfully with no problems, but when I try it on Bertie none of the needles are selected by the lace carriage the hubster said the timing could be out but if it was it wouldn't do the other patterns surely so confused x


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## jbee (Jan 5, 2016)

Azzara said:


> Thanks Ann,
> I saw that page but it only confused things for me. I own both of those machines. The descriptions don't fit my machines and the top section of the chart and the lower descriptions don't exactly agree with each other either.
> 
> My 830 does come with a lace carriage, there is a bracket for it in the lid and the manual talks about it. Even though the chart says differently, my 860 doesn't have a lace carriage and there is no spot to store one in the 860 lid. An option on that model perhaps? I even went as far as checking that I had the lids on the right machines.
> ...


My 860 does have a lace carriage. I'm the original owner.


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## jaysclark (Jan 26, 2013)

The lace carriages for the punchcard model 830 and above are the same. The lace carriages for the electronics are also the same, apart from the fact that they have a magnet attached to them

The only one that is different is the 970 lace carriage that doesn't have a magnet but depresses the sensor.

When I had problems with my 970 lace carriage, the engineer said he could take any lace carriage and mount the 970 fixing on it

He did manage to adjust it and it works perfectly now, but the essence is that the actual lace carriages are all the same in their actual workings


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## Azzara (Jan 23, 2014)

jbee said:


> My 860 does have a lace carriage. I'm the original owner.


WOW ...this is an old thread revisited. That 860 is long gone. It had a long list of things wrong and missing, including the fact it did not have the proper lid on the case. I just used the machine for parts and fixed several other Brother units. I still have the good old 830 and it's ribber for Knitting with the Lights Out...LOL


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## jbee (Jan 5, 2016)

Azzara said:


> WOW ...this is an old thread revisited. That 860 is long gone. It had a long list of things wrong and missing, including the fact it did not have the proper lid on the case. I just used the machine for parts and fixed several other Brother units. I still have the good old 830 and it's ribber for Knitting with the Lights Out...LOL


I haven't had to many problems with mine.


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## Azzara (Jan 23, 2014)

jbee said:


> I haven't had to many problems with mine.


It was a rescue. I brought it home from the scrap yard. Paid $10 for it.
That was a lot of good needles for $10


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## 30Knitter (Apr 9, 2012)

My 830 was my original purchase. Everything works great. I even have an 840 carriage and lace carriage for it. Some of the carriages will not work in the 830 because of the difference in the rails. And definitely the 900 lace carriages won't work well on it. The original lace carriage for the 830 doesn't have the cams so you don't lace onto nothing. The cams keep the end needles in B position unless you have them turned off.


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