# WHY must there be POLITICAL DIVISION everywhere?



## Damiano (Nov 15, 2016)

I don't care where we all stand politically. We ALL must tell Ravelry this is UNACCEPTABLE!!!

https://www.toddstarnes.com/politics/knitting-website-tells-trump-supporters-they-are-no-longer-welcome/


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## collectordolls (Oct 27, 2013)

I agree. Just ban all political discussions it is a craft site. If someone posts a pattern that you do not agree with just don't make whatever it is. Everyone is entitled to their own ideas


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## MommaCrochet (Apr 15, 2012)

Though I don’t use the site much, I agree, I’d rather they just ban political discussions from Ravelry
Tina


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## PamiS (Apr 23, 2018)

Stupid decision, in my opinion.


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## nitnana (Feb 3, 2013)

Is this any different than banning certain persons from doing business in my bakery, florist, etc.? Just thinkin' out loud here!Hmmmmm!! :sm07:


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## bokemom (Mar 16, 2017)

Here is a link to the actual Ravery site explaining their new policy.
https://www.ravelry.com/content/no-trump


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## janec1128 (Apr 15, 2019)

Damiano said:


> I don't care where we all stand politically. We ALL must tell Ravelry this is UNACCEPTABLE!!!
> 
> https://www.toddstarnes.com/politics/knitting-website-tells-trump-supporters-they-are-no-longer-welcome/


The title of the article you cite is misleading. Here is Ravelry's policy in full. I congratulate Ravelry.

Ravelry Policy: Do Not Post In Support of Trump or his Administration
Sunday, June 23rd 2019
We are banning support of Donald Trump and his administration on Ravelry.
This includes support in the form of forum posts, projects, patterns, profiles, and all other content. Note that your project data will never be deleted. We will never delete your Ravelry project data for any reason and if a project needs to be removed from the site, we will make sure that you have access to your data. If you are permanently banned from Ravelry, you will still be able to access any patterns that you purchased. Also, we will make sure that you receive a copy of your data.
We cannot provide a space that is inclusive of all and also allow support for open white supremacy. Support of the Trump administration is undeniably support for white supremacy.
Policy notes:
You can still participate if you do in fact support the administration, you just can't talk about it here.
We are not endorsing the Democrats nor banning Republicans.
We are definitely not banning conservative politics. Hate groups and intolerance are different from other types of political positions.
We are not banning people for past support.
Do not try to weaponize this policy by entrapping people who do support the Trump administration into voicing their support.
Similarly, antagonizing conservative members for their unstated positions is not acceptable.
You can help by flagging any of the following items if they constitute support for Trump or his administration:
Projects: Unacceptable projects will be provided to the member or made invisible to others.
Patterns: Unacceptable patterns will be returned to drafts.
Forum posts: right now, only posts written after Sunday, June 23rd at 8 AM Eastern
Profiles: Please do not flag profiles yet if the only banned content is an avatar or avatars. There is not yet a flagging system for those.
Much of this policy was first written by a roleplaying game site, not unlike Ravelry but for RPGs, named RPG.net. We thank them for their thoughtful work. For citations/references, see this post on RPG.net: https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/new-ban-do-not-po...


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## Beachgirl1000 (Sep 29, 2015)

janec1128 said:


> The title of the article you cite is misleading. Here is Ravelry's policy in full. I congratulate Ravelry.
> 
> Ravelry Policy: Do Not Post In Support of Trump or his Administration
> Sunday, June 23rd 2019
> ...


I applaud this statement by Ravelry.


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## Kiwi-pally (Oct 8, 2017)

They are a private company - their site, their rules.

They will not have made this decision lightly. Any complaints to them are likely to reinforce their decision, especially given the eloquence of Trump supporters.

Re complaints, my only one for Ravelry is I wish they included felting (objects, not felted knitted clothing) in their ambit. They have weaving now, why not felting.


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## lechusas (Oct 6, 2011)

Why do Politics need to be involved in Crafts unless you are making something for Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day...Christmas... Even then, opinions and political decisions needn't be discussed. It is fun to use different skills/materials to make a picture of Uncle Sam or the American Flag or a salute to the Armed Forces or a million other things that honor each of those particular days.


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## emdpr (Feb 22, 2017)

While I agree with Ravelry's statement and their right to it, I agree with the others that a craft site is not the place for political opinions. There are certainly many sites for these so if you feel strongly on a subject you should avail yourself of these.


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## books (Jan 11, 2013)

emdpr said:


> While I agree with Ravelry's statement and their right to it, I agree with the others that a craft site is not the place for political opinions. There are certainly many sites for these so if you feel strongly on a subject you should avail yourself of these.


A craft site may not be the place for political opinions, but it is a fact that it happening. Their ban is in response to that. And I disagree with the headline that they are banning trump supporters. They are not, they are banning any mention of trump. As an anti trump person, I cannot go on that website, and post my feelings against him. It's fair in my mind.


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## painthoss (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks for pointing out the facts, janec1128. And also thank you for posting what Ravelry really said. I for one completely support their stance and wish Congress could grow a spine. 


janec1128 said:


> The title of the article you cite is misleading. Here is Ravelry's policy in full. I congratulate Ravelry.
> 
> Ravelry Policy: Do Not Post In Support of Trump or his Administration
> Sunday, June 23rd 2019
> ...


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## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

> Ravelry is a place for knitters, crocheters, designers, spinners, weavers and dyers to keep track of their yarn, tools, project and pattern information, and look to others for ideas and inspiration. The content here is all user- driven; we as a community make the site what it is. Ravelry is a great place for you to keep notes about your projects, see what other people are making, find the perfect pattern and connect with people who love to play with yarn from all over the world in our forums.


https://www.ravelry.com/about

I see no mention of religion or politics in their statement. All discussion of religion and politics should be banned. I don't care who supports what, I'm interested in knitting and crochet.


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## Cheryl_K (May 23, 2011)

Ravelry account already deleted. I won't be missing it. I only saw the new policy today because I had a minute at work and thought I'd look at some knitting. I don't agree with their decision, so I'll look elsewhere, like here on KP. At least you can express your opinion here, no matter what it is.


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## JMBeals (Nov 27, 2013)

nitnana said:


> Is this any different than banning certain persons from doing business in my bakery, florist, etc.? Just thinkin' out loud here!Hmmmmm!! :sm07:


There's a difference in "doing business" and "participating in a particular ceremony". In Oregon you can be fined (by the state) out of business for the latter (ie: Sweet Cakes by Melissa .... a PRIVATE company). Details! Details!


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

books said:


> A craft site may not be the place for political opinions, but it is a fact that it happening. Their ban is in response to that. And I disagree with the headline that they are banning trump supporters. They are not, they are banning any mention of trump. As an anti trump person, I cannot go on that website, and post my feelings against him. It's fair in my mind.


Thank you Books. You read and understood the content of Jessica's statement. Too bad several others did not. They are not banning anyone. But discussion of Trump and his Administration by anyone (conservative or liberal) is verboten. Seems pretty fair to me too. I sent an email applauding their decision. Admin of KP might want to follow suit. Would make this forum a kinder, gentler place IMHO.


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## hildy3 (Jan 29, 2011)

Great!! Finally!! Whereas, wherefore, whocares?? From day 1, I saw no place for politics on a "Knitting/Crochet" forum, but it reared it's ugly head and here we are. Blame??? First..Admin, himself could have disallowed it, but he didn't. Does he make money from political ads?? How?? If not, he should not allow them. This appeared on Main...why? Hello! Admin! Where are your watchdogs?? I digress..I remember the days when you watched us and "shut down" discussions when out of hand! THOSE WERE THE DAYS!! CONTROL! I want my friend, Koni back. Where are you? We need you! You gave birth to us! Do not desert us when we need you. Do what you used to do..cut out the nasties, politics, etc.!! I love you...will always owe you for this forum. I hope all is well with you and yours...this rollercoaster, called life isn't easy, is it?? God bless, and love...Hildy3


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## hildy3 (Jan 29, 2011)

Great!! Finally!! Whereas, wherefore, whocares?? From day 1, I saw no place for politics on a "Knitting/Crochet" forum, but it reared it's ugly head and here we are. Blame??? First..Admin, himself could have disallowed it, but he didn't. Does he make money from political ads?? How?? If not, he should not allow them. This appeared on Main...why? Hello! Admin! Where are your watchdogs?? I digress..I remember the days when you watched us and "shut down" discussions when out of hand! THOSE WERE THE DAYS!! CONTROL! I want my friend, Koni back. Where are you? We need you! You gave birth to us! Do not desert us when we need you. Do what you used to do..cut out the nasties, politics, etc.!! I love you...will always owe you for this forum. I hope all is well with you and yours...this rollercoaster, called life isn't easy, is it?? God bless, and love...Hildy3


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## Cheryl_K (May 23, 2011)

books said:


> A craft site may not be the place for political opinions, but it is a fact that it happening. Their ban is in response to that. And I disagree with the headline that they are banning trump supporters. They are not, they are banning any mention of trump. As an anti trump person, I cannot go on that website, and post my feelings against him. It's fair in my mind.


Sorry, but the ban is only for support of Trump. Pretty sure that leaves the non supporters free to express their opinions.


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## berigora (Nov 27, 2012)

Perhaps when trump supporters can convince Ravelry that he is not a white supremacist, they might reverse their decision. I'm not holding my breath.


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## Cookiecat (Jan 20, 2014)

Agreed, Damiano! They accuse Trump and his supporters of being white supremacists, which is a LIE. I support Trump and his policies, and NEVER have supported any white supremacists. He is our PRESIDENT. Barefaced hatred from the Left is fine with Ravelry. Their FASCIST new policy has ruined Ravelry for me. :sm15: :sm15: :sm15: :sm15: :sm15: Notified Ravelry WHY, and deleted my account. Posted to some of my groups: "Love the group, and Ravelry, until today. Have been slandered and accused of 'white supremacism" as has the POTUS. Can't agree to a LIE about me. Adios!"


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## Cookiecat (Jan 20, 2014)

JMBeals said:


> There's a difference in "doing business" and "participating in a particular ceremony". In Oregon you can be fined (by the state) out of business for the latter (ie: Sweet Cakes by Melissa .... a PRIVATE company). Details! Details!


 :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24:


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## Damiano (Nov 15, 2016)

Ravelry displays the LBTQ+ flag on it's site, AND allows designers of Democrat and Rainbow-themed patterns, AMONG OTHERS, to remain.

Ravelry even REMOVED patterns saved from certain designers that were in our libraries. I used these patterns for charity and fundraisers.

ALL I ASK, IS FOR THIS MADNESS TO STOP!!!


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## jmcret05 (Oct 24, 2011)

Damiano said:


> I don't care where we all stand politically. We ALL must tell Ravelry this is UNACCEPTABLE!!!
> 
> https://www.toddstarnes.com/politics/knitting-website-tells-trump-supporters-they-are-no-longer-welcome/


Why?? It is their forum and their business. You don't know what prompted their decision, nor do I. If it was because they didn't want Ravelry to turn into a political forum, or because they believe that he fosters the wrong talks/discussions, it is their call.

What is unacceptable about the owners of a forum changing their policy to suit their own values? No one is required to visit Ravelry, or download their many free patterns, or post their finished projects.

Hobby Lobby has some policies that I don't agree with and Chick-fil-A isn't open on Sunday. It is their policy and although unacceptable to some, it just is not worth discussing. I don't support either of those two. That's my decision.


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## jmcret05 (Oct 24, 2011)

Damiano said:


> Ravelry displays the LBTQ+ flag on it's site, AND allows designers of Democrat and Rainbow-themed patterns, AMONG OTHERS, to remain.
> 
> Ravelry even REMOVED patterns saved from certain designers that were in our libraries. I used these patterns for charity and fundraisers.
> 
> ALL I ASK, IS FOR THIS MADNESS TO STOP!!!


FYI - The flag is displayed this month because it is Pride Month. Please wait until the dust settles before judging so harshly.


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## Shelly08 (Jul 4, 2011)

I think open discussion is good. No one has to participate in anything they dislike or disagree with. I do not choose to let such discussions influence my interest in knitting, however. I enjoy it too much.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

jmcret05 said:


> Why?? It is their forum and their business. You don't know what prompted their decision, nor do I. If it was because they didn't want Ravelry to turn into a political forum, or because they believe that he fosters the wrong talks/discussions, it is their call.
> 
> What is unacceptable about the owners of a forum changing their policy to suit their own values? No one is required to visit Ravelry, or download their many free patterns, or post their finished projects.
> 
> Hobby Lobby has some policies that I don't agree with and Chick-fil-A isn't open on Sunday. It is their policy and although unacceptable to some, it just is not worth discussing. I don't support either of those two. That's my decision.


. :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24:


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

berigora said:


> Perhaps when trump supporters can convince Ravelry that he is not a white supremacist, they might reverse their decision. I'm not holding my breath.


Breathing right along with you!


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## jmcret05 (Oct 24, 2011)

Why should being a member of a 'craft site' limit discussion of politics? Please read that as I meant it, not as dissing Ravelry. I agree with them.

KP has several sections that one can subscribe to to discuss politics. General chit chat does not limit what topic is discussed. You can subscribe or unsubscribe to those sections you don't like. 

When the perfect forum is invented, please let all of know. 

My opinion is that when we limit our interests to just certain categories, and do not participate in the current discussions, we are limiting ourselves. Current events, history, and civics should not be replaced with apathy and disinterest in what is now a global community. Just MY opinion.


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## seamer45 (Jan 18, 2011)

I hope this includes all politics, I’m sick of it already. It’s their website, they run it the way they like, just like Knitting Paradise.


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## jmcret05 (Oct 24, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Breathing right along with you!


 :sm24: :sm24:


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## SitznKnitz (Jun 23, 2019)

This site is the beneficiary.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

jmcret05 said:


> :sm24: :sm24:


I'm not holding my breath either. At least King's (from Iowa) facade has been erased and his racism is clear to more. Trump is very much the same.


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## janec1128 (Apr 15, 2019)

painthoss said:


> Thanks for pointing out the facts, janec1128. And also thank you for posting what Ravelry really said. I for one completely support their stance and wish Congress could grow a spine.


 :sm24:


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## Montana Gramma (Dec 19, 2012)

How does Ravelry make their income, ads? 
Wonder what this will do to their bottom line.
Seems like everyone interprets freedom of speech in their own way, their own company etc. regardless how extreme it may be to others. Encouraging members to seek out and inform on a certain class is extreme. Tatteling as an adult just doesn't ring my bell. 
Any other great sites out there that just promote knitting and crochet? 
We will all navigate towards what makes us comfortable, hopefully with fairness in mind.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Montana Gramma said:


> How does Ravelry make their income, ads?
> Wonder what this will do to their bottom line.
> Seems like everyone interprets freedom of speech in their own way, their own company etc. regardless how extreme it may be to others. Encouraging members to seek out and inform on a certain class is extreme. Tatteling as an adult just doesn't ring my bell.
> Any other great sites out there that just promote knitting and crochet?
> We will all navigate towards what makes us comfortable, hopefully with fairness in mind.


Trump is temporary...his policies and divisiveness needs to be temporary also. Sanity and pragmatism will eventually prevail.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

RookieRetiree said:


> Trump is temporary...his policies and divisiveness needs to be temporary also. *Sanity and pragmatism will eventually prevail.*


Only *IF* apathy ceases to rule the voters!!!


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Cheryl_K said:


> Sorry, but the ban is only for support of Trump. Pretty sure that leaves the non supporters free to express their opinions.


No it does not. Read it again and try to comprehend the whole text this time. There is an admonishment about "baiting" Trumpsters.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Only *IF* apathy ceases to rule the voters!!!


Agree.


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## deenashoemaker (Nov 9, 2014)

Ravelry is picking and chosing what political affiliations it will be involved in. The only pattern I've ever paid for was FLKH. I'll miss browsing. Atleast here, I can use my ignore button.


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## Montana Gramma (Dec 19, 2012)

RookieRetiree said:


> Trump is temporary...his policies and divisiveness needs to be temporary also. Sanity and pragmatism will eventually prevail.


Every President is temporary. All policies change sooner or later. I think it is those that can bend like the willow that usually prevail without too much change to their well being. The world is in turmoil but I don't have to let come into my life or peace of mind. 
I strive to do what is best and fair no matter what or who protests outside my door. I can feel strongly about a matter but I don't force those feelings on others or tell them they are wrong for how they feel.
Having someone scream at me that I am a lunatic because I don't subscribe to their way of thinking gets no attention from me, but easy conversation and sane delivery will have me listen. 
For the most part KP keeps pretty sane, there are extremists in every way of life, but for the huge membership here, it is a small percentage that go over the cliff, imho. 
Our Ladies Club has one rule, no religion or politics discussed if it falls to someone to defend a position and lead to hard feelings. So our sewing days are usually politics / religion free, refreshing to say the least. 
No matter what people chose to believe in the political arena , I hope it brings them peace of mind. I also hope it does not filter into every facet of all our lives because them the stress hits the fan.


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## tdorminey (Mar 22, 2011)

I joined KP because it connected me to a world of knitters and gave me access to their experiences, skills, and opinions re all things knitting. If I had wanted to connect with political views of others, I would have looked for such a site. KP provides platforms for such in the Attic and Solarium. I choose not to subscribe to those divisions. Those who wish to can fight it out with those who enjoy that kind of thing. 

Those who feel their views, Left, Right, or whatever, are so important that they are worth imposing on those who don't wish to hear them, by posting them in Main, don't expect me to read them. I skip over those topics. One of the tenets of my "raising" was that you never argue politics or religion with anyone outside your family. You will lose friends, and others who might otherwise become friends.

You have the right to helieve what you wish and to speak freely about your beliefs to any who will listen.

I have the right to choose not to listen.

My rhetoric will not change your mind. Nor will yours change mine. After 74 years of fighting just to survive, I am now too old to fight, even if I wished to.

So let's agree to just talk knitting here. OK?
☮


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## Kathie (Mar 29, 2011)

Granny41 said:


> No it does not. Read it again and try to comprehend the whole text this time. There is an admonishment about "baiting" Trumpsters.


This is the way I understood it as well. Raverly isn't going to tolerate comments about trump from either side. That seems fair to me.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

tdorminey said:


> ... *So let's agree to just talk knitting here.* OK?
> *☮*


. :sm24:


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

This site is just as bad, re: political polarization! I have always hated Ravelry (which is currently flying the gay rainbow flag). I was banned from their site back in the early days of Obama, for voicing my opinions IN A CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL GROUP they allowed. I haven't missed all the hate, bullying and division one bit. I started hanging out here instead, but then left several years ago. Now, coming back, I see it's just like Ravelry in politics.

Can't we get away from all the political bashing and name calling, not to mention disinformation, on a CRAFT SITE, for crying out loud? Neither politics nor religion should be allowed either here or on Ravelry. Just seeing some of the thread titles makes my blood pressure go up. I don't need it.


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## targa416 (Mar 26, 2017)

Since this topic is posted in the Main section (where it doesn’t belong), it came across my radar screen. Personally, I don’t know why anyone who subscribes to a knitting / crochet forum or website would EXPECT to be allowed to discuss politics or why they would criticize a privately-owned business (Ravelry) for making its own rules (which it has every right to do). I love Ravelry and I wish KP would follow Ravelry’s example in this regard. Unfortunately, that’s not likely to happen since on KP, any post = money for the owner. I expect that’s at least one reason there are less and less knitting / crochet topics that are interesting. I think a lot of members just don’t bother logging in anymore.


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## plumhurricane (Dec 9, 2012)

Why is it unacceptable. This is still a free country they are entitled to make this policy decision as we are entitled to support them or withdraw from their site. The same with KP nobody forces you to become a member or to read political posts. There would not be a section for general subjects if there wasn’t a demand for it


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## ckmc (Jun 24, 2017)

Cookiecat said:


> Agreed, Damiano! They accuse Trump and his supporters of being white supremacists, which is a LIE. I support Trump and his policies, and NEVER have supported any white supremacists. He is our PRESIDENT. Barefaced hatred from the Left is fine with Ravelry. Their FASCIST new policy has ruined Ravelry for me. :sm15: :sm15: :sm15: :sm15: :sm15: Notified Ravelry WHY, and deleted my account. Posted to some of my groups: "Love the group, and Ravelry, until today. Have been slandered and accused of 'white supremacism" as has the POTUS. Can't agree to a LIE about me. Adios!"


His actions and statements have shown time and time again that he is a white supremacist. He's also shown time and time again that he has no respect for women, nor does he have any respect for the law.

And I'm am NOT Leftist and I wish that the right would quit assuming that those who oppose trump and his policies are leftist. There are many of us who are or have been conservatives who don't like the man and think he is destroying the country.


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## Cheryl_K (May 23, 2011)

Granny41 said:


> No it does not. Read it again and try to comprehend the whole text this time. There is an admonishment about "baiting" Trumpsters.


Yes, I read that, but the ban is still on supporters of Trump. The admonishment about baiting and outing supporters is retroactive to the policy which takes effect today and extends forward.


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## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

tdorminey said:


> I joined KP because it connected me to a world of knitters and gave me access to their experiences, skills, and opinions re all things knitting. If I had wanted to connect with political views of others, I would have looked for such a site. KP provides platforms for such in the Attic and Solarium. I choose not to subscribe to those divisions. Those who wish to can fight it out with those who enjoy that kind of thing.
> 
> Those who feel their views, Left, Right, or whatever, are so important that they are worth imposing on those who don't wish to hear them, by posting them in Main, don't expect me to read them. I skip over those topics. One of the tenets of my "raising" was that you never argue politics or religion with anyone outside your family. You will lose friends, and others who might otherwise become friends.
> 
> ...


 :sm24:


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## Cookiecat (Jan 20, 2014)

There is NO action nor statement done by Trump supporting or enacting white supremacism. Facts not feelings. And yes you're correct, there are "conservative" Never-Trumpers who would prefer the Dems win, enact policies they themselves despise, just so Trump isn't in office. To each their own.


ckmc said:


> His actions and statements have shown time and time again that he is a white supremacist. He's also shown time and time again that he has no respect for women, nor does he have any respect for the law.
> 
> And I'm am NOT Leftist and I wish that the right would quit assuming that those who oppose trump and his policies are leftist. There are many of us who are or have been conservatives who don't like the man and think he is destroying the country.


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

MommaCrochet said:


> Though I don't use the site much, I agree, I'd rather they just ban political discussions from Ravelry
> Tina


I agree with you ... just ban everything that is political ... but get rid of the double standard.

This is the communications I had with Ravelry today:

Message sent to Ravelry:

"Could someone at Ravelry explain to me how the rule at the top of the Home page falls under Inclusion for all. It seems to me that you are excluding a very large number of people. So I guess I'm confused as to what your definition of inclusion is. Including only those whose beliefs are the same as yours? Including only Liberals? Including only Democrats? We all probably should know exactly where the lines are drawn so we do not cross them in order to stay in the good graces of Ravelry."

Ravelry's response:

"Hi there, The policy linked on the front page details the rules that have been put in place. As outlined there, we do not intend to exclude Trump supporters, only to limit the content allowed on the site. I hope this helps to clarify, "

My response:

"Just so I'm clear, does that mean that going forward content regarding Gay Pride and Pussy Hats are allowed but MAGA content is excluded?"

Ravelry's response:

"Hi there, There may be additional decisions made in the future. I cannot tell you what those may be, but this is the limitation we have made at this time. I hope this helps to clarify, Sarah"

I detest double standards and will always speak out about that. I think everyone has a right to their opinion ... even people who do not agree with me ... we all have a voice ... and when someone bans one voice, it seems to me that they are afraid that view is winning when there isn't even a contest.


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## Longtimer (May 23, 2013)

Cheryl_K said:


> Sorry, but the ban is only for support of Trump. Pretty sure that leaves the non supporters free to express their opinions.


You should actually read the article. 
Your "pretty sure" will not be accurate.


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## deenashoemaker (Nov 9, 2014)

peachy51 said:


> I agree with you ... just ban everything that is political ... but get rid of the double standard.
> 
> This is the communications I had with Ravelry today:
> 
> ...


 :sm24: :sm24: :sm24:


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## Emerson116 (Jul 13, 2018)

Beachgirl1000 said:


> I applaud this statement by Ravelry.


As do I!


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## MommaCrochet (Apr 15, 2012)

peachy51 said:


> I agree with you ... just ban everything that is political ... but get rid of the double standard.
> 
> This is the communications I had with Ravelry today:
> 
> ...


I'm glad you did that, though the responses you were given mediocre at best. We should all question this. 
Tina


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## Emerson116 (Jul 13, 2018)

emdpr said:


> While I agree with Ravelry's statement and their right to it, I agree with the others that a craft site is not the place for political opinions. There are certainly many sites for these so if you feel strongly on a subject you should avail yourself of these.


They are banning the people who use it for a political forum. I agree with them and so should any free-thinking person.


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## Emerson116 (Jul 13, 2018)

books said:


> A craft site may not be the place for political opinions, but it is a fact that it happening. Their ban is in response to that. And I disagree with the headline that they are banning trump supporters. They are not, they are banning any mention of trump. As an anti trump person, I cannot go on that website, and post my feelings against him. It's fair in my mind.


I agree.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

To answer the subject line (WHY must there be POLITICAL DIVISION everywhere?), it's because we are humans, and what differentiates us from the other species on this planet is our (too often pointless) argumentativeness and insistence on complaining about absolutely _*everything*_ under the sun.

I do wish this hadn't been posted in Main. It's the only section I'm subscribed to, because I do not want to discuss non-yarny topics.


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## alan55 (Aug 18, 2013)

GrumpyGramma said:


> https://www.ravelry.com/about
> 
> I see no mention of religion or politics in their statement. All discussion of religion and politics should be banned. I don't care who supports what, I'm interested in knitting and crochet.


That how our motorcycle club (and other forums) works - religion and politics are banned because they are two divisive and are considered personal.

What unites us is more important


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## farmlady (Apr 15, 2017)

tdorminey said:


> I joined KP because it connected me to a world of knitters and gave me access to their experiences, skills, and opinions re all things knitting. If I had wanted to connect with political views of others, I would have looked for such a site. KP provides platforms for such in the Attic and Solarium. I choose not to subscribe to those divisions. Those who wish to can fight it out with those who enjoy that kind of thing.
> 
> Those who feel their views, Left, Right, or whatever, are so important that they are worth imposing on those who don't wish to hear them, by posting them in Main, don't expect me to read them. I skip over those topics. One of the tenets of my "raising" was that you never argue politics or religion with anyone outside your family. You will lose friends, and others who might otherwise become friends.
> 
> ...


I agree with you all the way. As you said I come here to read about knitting and if I wanted political discussion I would go to a site for that. 
KP has the Attic, never been there, just for political stuff but for some reason they will not keep their political talk there. Why?
I could not help but notice how quickly the Ravelry statement got twisted and thanks to the ones who posted the actual statement


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## Bedo (Jun 4, 2018)

I think they made a good decision on their behalf. Finally someone has taken a stand and it is a knitting site. Lady their will always be political division unless you live in North Korea or Russia or China.


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## kknott4957 (Mar 31, 2011)

I think all political discussion should be banned from Ravelry. That's not the purpose of their,site and if you're banning mention of one person only, that smacks of discrimination.


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## mikebkk (Oct 6, 2012)

Beachgirl1000 said:


> I applaud this statement by Ravelry.


 :sm24:


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## whodlum (Jun 9, 2011)

Sorry I forgot to “quote” the original post. So here it is:
Is this any different than banning certain persons from doing business in my bakery, florist, etc.? Just thinkin' out loud here!Hmmmmm!! 


I hope this doesn’t sound hostile, but it actually is different. The bakery issue has to do with a strongly held religious belief. The baker isn’t refusing service to gay people generally. The baker is refusing to participate in a union that his God declares is sinful. That is not the same as Ravely painting everyone who publicly supports Trump as being a white supremacist, racist, homophobe and then banning that opposing view entirely. As far as I’m concerned it’s their business and they can do as they please, but I do not have to support them. I’m very concerned that this type of behavior will lead to a new kind of segregation. Of all things: people won’t be allowed to join a knitting (or other) group unless they show the right kind of political affiliation.


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## paljoey46 (Nov 20, 2011)

books said:


> A craft site may not be the place for political opinions, but it is a fact that it happening. Their ban is in response to that. And I disagree with the headline that they are banning trump supporters. They are not, they are banning any mention of trump. As an anti trump person, I cannot go on that website, and post my feelings against him. It's fair in my mind.


Except they are not banning any mention of Trump: https://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/not-for-trump-fans-hat. Just banning, apparently, any support for Trump.

Sadly, this and other companies don't realize that they are upsetting probably half of their customer base. There has been a U.S. Politics discussion thread on Ravelry for a long time. It is open to anyone with something to say. Yes, it is currently mostly against Trump. Don't want to hear or read it? Don't, it's that simple. But to ban everything about Trump except what you apparently agree with is hypocritical.


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## berlauk (Dec 25, 2013)

Cookiecat said:


> Agreed, Damiano! They accuse Trump and his supporters of being white supremacists, which is a LIE. I support Trump and his policies, and NEVER have supported any white supremacists. He is our PRESIDENT. Barefaced hatred from the Left is fine with Ravelry. Their FASCIST new policy has ruined Ravelry for me. :sm15: :sm15: :sm15: :sm15: :sm15: Notified Ravelry WHY, and deleted my account. Posted to some of my groups: "Love the group, and Ravelry, until today. Have been slandered and accused of 'white supremacism" as has the POTUS. Can't agree to a LIE about me. Adios!"


 :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: Couldn't have said it better myself, Cookiecat! It seems the hatred and bias is coming from the left..bye bye Ravelry!


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## Celt Knitter (Jul 13, 2011)

Why is a strongly-held religious view more acceptable than a strongly held political view? It isn't and the consequences of both have resulted in mass atrocities throughout history.

The Trump administration is now demanding access to visa applicants' social media accounts, which is a massive intrusion on people's privacy, and which means that anyone who expresses disagreement with the ethos of the administration will not be granted a visa.

Ravelry is a business, and it can decide its own ethos, providing it does not contravene the law. It isn't banning Trump supporters; it is is taking a stand against injustice.

If people want a craft site of their own values, go and start their own and stop dictating to others what should be done. You don't have to read what you don't like on here by unsubscribing from the sections you don't want to see or by ignoring the post. This site is also a business and it clearly sees the value in having the different sections. When you click on a page that has content which you object to, you are supporting the view you disapprove of through the ad revenue each click generates.


whodlum said:


> I hope this doesn't sound hostile, but it actually is different. The bakery issue has to do with a strongly held religious belief. The baker isn't refusing service to gay people generally. The baker is refusing to participate in a union that his God declares is sinful. That is not the same as Ravely painting everyone who publicly supports Trump as being a white supremacist, racist, homophobe and then banning that opposing view entirely. As far as I'm concerned it's their business and they can do as they please, but I do not have to support them. I'm very concerned that this type of behavior will lead to a new kind of segregation. Of all things: people won't be allowed to join a knitting (or other) group unless they show the right kind of political affiliation.


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## Stephhy (May 14, 2012)

Damiano said:


> I don't care where we all stand politically. We ALL must tell Ravelry this is UNACCEPTABLE!!!
> 
> https://www.toddstarnes.com/politics/knitting-website-tells-trump-supporters-they-are-no-longer-welcome/


Private company, their decision, I stand by them. I'm tired of all the Trump ugly, from either party.


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## Nanknit (Mar 2, 2013)

Granny41 said:


> Thank you Books. You read and understood the content of Jessica's statement. Too bad several others did not. They are not banning anyone. But discussion of Trump and his Administration by anyone (conservative or liberal) is verboten. Seems pretty fair to me too. I sent an email applauding their decision. Admin of KP might want to follow suit. Would make this forum a kinder, gentler place IMHO.


You have said it for me.....I agree that it is a fair stance for Ravelry to take. 
If only KP could keep discussions of a Political nature off this site. Jen.


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## kristym (Nov 21, 2011)

I really don't care. Sick of the hatred I see in both sides. Ban all discussion of not just Trump but ALL politicians then to be fair. No Obama, Pelosi, or other political mentions or patterns etc I never went to Ravelry for anything but pattern inspiration anyway


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## Ladyj960 (May 22, 2013)

So am I reading the Ravelry policy right, that all Trump supporters are white supremacist? That’s like saying all Black Americans are thugs, all Muslims are terrorist, all Hispanics are illegal. 
And, this was all figured out by a RPG company that probably makes games teaching people how to kill. 
I agree that politics needs to be left off some things. But, ALL, not just some.


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## Grandmaknitz (Oct 15, 2015)

GrumpyGramma said:


> https://www.ravelry.com/about
> 
> I see no mention of religion or politics in their statement. All discussion of religion and politics should be banned. I don't care who supports what, I'm interested in knitting and crochet.


I'm with you Grumpy! I DO NOT give a rat's patootie about anyone's politics or religious beliefs on this site or Ravelry. I just want to see knitting and crochet.


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## knitter828 (Jun 24, 2019)

I support Ravelry!


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## katanamama (Mar 9, 2017)

nitnana said:


> Is this any different than banning certain persons from doing business in my bakery, florist, etc.? Just thinkin' out loud here!Hmmmmm!! :sm07:


Then why do the press, the school and the students publicly condemn and try to destroy a baker for his beliefs. Yet there is nothing but the sound of silence when anyone disagrees with socialists.


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## mairmie (Jun 16, 2011)

emdpr said:


> While I agree with Ravelry's statement and their right to it, I agree with the others that a craft site is not the place for political opinions. There are certainly many sites for these so if you feel strongly on a subject you should avail yourself of these.


I absolutely agree with your statement. Thank you.


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## Celt Knitter (Jul 13, 2011)

You can believe what you want; however, if you are in business, or are a public entity of any sort, you cannot, by law, discriminate against people on the grounds of race, gender, ethnicity, etc. By supporting the baker, you are encouraging the breaking of the law. These laws are there for good reason. We have seen too many atrocities committed in the name of a belief! It has nothing whatsoever to do with socialism, a concept you clearly do not understand........surprising since it was a concept developed based on religious philosophy that we should all care for one another.


katanamama said:


> Then why do the press, the school and the students publicly condemn and try to destroy a baker for his beliefs. Yet there is nothing but the sound of silence when anyone disagrees with socialists.


.


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## judysbg42 (Jul 10, 2016)

Damiano said:


> I don't care where we all stand politically. We ALL must tell Ravelry this is UNACCEPTABLE!!!
> 
> https://www.toddstarnes.com/politics/knitting-website-tells-trump-supporters-they-are-no-longer-welcome/


I agree! It a craft site for goodness sake. Leave politics at the door.


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## Dusti (Jan 23, 2012)

Idiots abound!


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## kkaallard (Jul 3, 2016)

I've deleted my Ravelry account as well. I had been overlooking their support of the LGBTQ agenda, okay, it's Pride Month. I have a belief that this activity endangers one's soul. But their misguided belief that our president is a 'white supremacist' is just over the top! I agree that there is no place for political discussion on such a site. Pretty sure any suggestion to limit political discussion while Mr. Obama was president would have been met with cries of racism.

It's unfortunate, but as others have pointed out it's their right, just as it's mine to no longer support their platform.


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## kathleenTC (Mar 14, 2011)

There is no room in the world for ANY bullies, hate mongers, or white supremacists- no matter what country he may be president of!!! Ravelry's decision to ban this vile behavior is not political.


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## purdygirl (Mar 20, 2017)

Hmmm...will Ravelry be deleting all the “pink ???? “ hat patterns from their site as well now?


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## carriemae (Aug 28, 2012)

This is disgusting. I've now added raverly to my banned list along with Starbucks, target, and many others!!!


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

Cookiecat said:


> There is NO action nor statement done by Trump supporting or enacting white supremacism. Facts not feelings. And yes you're correct, there are "conservative" Never-Trumpers who would prefer the Dems win, enact policies they themselves despise, just so Trump isn't in office. To each their own.


His comment that there are "fine people" on both sides after the riot and murder in Charleston is a clear indication of his position. People who march under the Nazi banner are white supremacists; they cannot be defined as "fine people".


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## CopperEagle (Dec 10, 2013)

I stand with Ravelry. I will not support a government that openly and cruelly abuses children, people of different religions, people of different ethnic backgrounds, and anyone who dares challenge them. The world tolerated this behavior in the past and that is forever to our shame.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Damiano said:


> I don't care where we all stand politically. We ALL must tell Ravelry this is UNACCEPTABLE!!!
> 
> https://www.toddstarnes.com/politics/knitting-website-tells-trump-supporters-they-are-no-longer-welcome/


Let's have a bit of history on the author of the link attached to Damiano's post. It might, just might open some eyes as to what is going on https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/how-todd-starnes-is-compromising-fox-news-credibility/405118/


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## Mariele (Sep 19, 2016)

thank you, I appreciate ravelry's statement


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## Irene1 (Oct 23, 2013)

With Ravelry’s policy, perhaps they won’t be flooded with stuff the troll farms put out, not to mention regular campaign stuff. Some of my sites are already being flooded with stuff from the RNC. Maybe if they just ban all such stuff, they won’t be in a position to post material foreign actors put out. I still can’t believe the stuff the Russian troll farms put out in 2016....and that so many people believed every word of it. Now the bad actors have had some practice and experience, and will be flooding the internet with even more believable stuff. 

I just wish all voters who see something controversial do a little actual research from dependable sources and educate themselves. I do get tired of listening to people repeat and believe the lies that came from Russsian trolls.


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## YarnStalker (May 30, 2011)

Cheryl_K said:


> Sorry, but the ban is only for support of Trump. Pretty sure that leaves the non supporters free to express their opinions.


No, it doesn't.
Those who voice their opinions even in the opposite will be flagged. It's serious.

Now, they also need to seek out the bullies who are making derogatory comments about some others and making up lies in some of the forums about others including designers who have had serious issues in their lives including life threatening illnesses. There's a group who claims that those who are fighting cancer are just making up the whole story for publicity.
That also does not belong on Ravelry or anywhere since it's just downright mean.

Rarely do I discuss politics but, if you're a woman and have ever been accosted, attacked, etc sexually by a man I cannot understand support of a man who takes pride in his 'accomplishments'. I have had that experience and told by the man to 'just get over it already'.

You don't.


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## painthoss (Jul 10, 2012)

Granny41 said:


> Let's have a bit of history on the author of the link attached to Damiano's post. It might, just might open some eyes as to what is going on https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/how-todd-starnes-is-compromising-fox-news-credibility/405118/


Thanks granny41. Very enlightening.


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## Kadoonya (Nov 4, 2015)

The Facebook knitting group I belong to is a very focused group and has been administered well. Still, politics sneaked in. Yesterday they had to post to reinforce no politics, religion or bullying rule. 
Feelings are high on both sides and campaign season is just getting started. Ravelry made a business decision. 
My opinion is Evangelical Christians are backward and discriminate against everyone else who is not a white, straight, Christian man. But, they have the right to their strange beliefs as long as they don’t force them on me through laws. True of any extremist group.


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## 99eagles (Jan 16, 2016)

Just wondering if they will ban the left. Probably not.


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## patocenizo (Jun 24, 2011)

I totally agree with you. So lets keep on knitting and crocheting.


tdorminey said:


> I joined KP because it connected me to a world of knitters and gave me access to their experiences, skills, and opinions re all things knitting. If I had wanted to connect with political views of others, I would have looked for such a site. KP provides platforms for such in the Attic and Solarium. I choose not to subscribe to those divisions. Those who wish to can fight it out with those who enjoy that kind of thing.
> 
> Those who feel their views, Left, Right, or whatever, are so important that they are worth imposing on those who don't wish to hear them, by posting them in Main, don't expect me to read them. I skip over those topics. One of the tenets of my "raising" was that you never argue politics or religion with anyone outside your family. You will lose friends, and others who might otherwise become friends.
> 
> ...


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## gerrity1 (Aug 16, 2012)

I won't be using ravelry-- ever !!


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## Irene1 (Oct 23, 2013)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Only *IF* apathy ceases to rule the voters!!!


 :sm24: :sm24: :sm24:


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

99eagles said:


> Just wondering if they will ban the left. Probably not.


Perhaps you should revisit their statement and try to comprehend the full text. They have NOT BANNED anyone.
https://www.ravelry.com/content/no-trump


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## TERIGODMOTHER (Sep 30, 2014)

books said:


> A craft site may not be the place for political opinions, but it is a fact that it happening. Their ban is in response to that. And I disagree with the headline that they are banning trump supporters. They are not, they are banning any mention of trump. As an anti trump person, I cannot go on that website, and post my feelings against him. It's fair in my mind.


Actually you can. It's only comments in favor of Trump that are banned.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

paljoey46 said:


> Except they are not banning any mention of Trump: https://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/not-for-trump-fans-hat. Just banning, apparently, any support for Trump.
> 
> Sadly, this and other companies don't realize that they are upsetting probably half of their customer base. There has been a U.S. Politics discussion thread on Ravelry for a long time. It is open to anyone with something to say. Yes, it is currently mostly against Trump. Don't want to hear or read it? Don't, it's that simple. But to ban everything about Trump except what you apparently agree with is hypocritical.


You over estimate the trump supporting power. With 30% US and maybe 10% international, by weighted average, you'll never get to a 50%. It's decreasing continually.


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## verwin (Jan 30, 2015)

Cheryl_K said:


> Sorry, but the ban is only for support of Trump. Pretty sure that leaves the non supporters free to express their opinions.


And indeed they do. They leave all the 'F*** Trump' projects on the site. They don't delete those accounts.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

kkaallard said:


> I've deleted my Ravelry account as well. I had been overlooking their support of the LGBTQ agenda, okay, it's Pride Month. I have a belief that this activity endangers one's soul. But their misguided belief that our president is a 'white supremacist' is just over the top! I agree that there is no place for political discussion on such a site. Pretty sure any suggestion to limit political discussion while Mr. Obama was president would have been met with cries of racism.
> 
> It's unfortunate, but as others have pointed out it's their right, just as it's mine to no longer support their platform.


As it should be!


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

kathleenTC said:


> There is no room in the world for ANY bullies, hate mongers, or white supremacists- no matter what country he may be president of!!! Ravelry's decision to ban this vile behavior is not political.


I agree.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

carriemae said:


> This is disgusting. I've now added raverly to my banned list along with Starbucks, target, and many others!!!


You'll find your kind of peace and quiet at Hobby Lobby and Chik-fa-Lay. Enjoy.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> His comment that there are "fine people" on both sides after the riot and murder in Charleston is a clear indication of his position. People who march under the Nazi banner are white supremacists; they cannot be defined as "fine people".


He also supports Saudi Arabia, who are journalist killers.


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## dora mac (Nov 15, 2011)

Beachgirl1000 said:


> I applaud this statement by Ravelry.


 :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24:


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## RobbiD (Nov 13, 2012)

janec1128 said:


> The title of the article you cite is misleading. Here is Ravelry's policy in full. I congratulate Ravelry.
> 
> Ravelry Policy: Do Not Post In Support of Trump or his Administration
> Sunday, June 23rd 2019
> ...


Thank you for actually reading their post and explanation of their stance. I read it, and can say that I am in full agreement. I also read what was posted on the RPG.net site by the moderators of that forum.

Why is it that Trump supporters can't seem to understand that they can support Trump, the administration, and whomever, without trying to beat dissenters over the head with a baseball bat?:sm16:


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## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)

They are cutting their own throat.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

kittykatzmom said:


> They are cutting their own throat.


Trump support is just not that powerful. Ravelry is getting increased support from their creative community, which consists of many people that trump supporters target with their (your) hate. You are one of the more blatant bigots on KP so everyone knows where you would come in on this issue.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

I left Ravelry once due to hateful liberal political posts supporting a Obama. Now I am leaving Ravelry for this poor decision.


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## flohel (Jan 24, 2011)

Yes I agree should be crafts only


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## mossstitch (Nov 6, 2013)

Cookiecat said:


> Agreed, Damiano! They accuse Trump and his supporters of being white supremacists, which is a LIE. I support Trump and his policies, and NEVER have supported any white supremacists. He is our PRESIDENT. Barefaced hatred from the Left is fine with Ravelry. Their FASCIST new policy has ruined Ravelry for me. :sm15: :sm15: :sm15: :sm15: :sm15: Notified Ravelry WHY, and deleted my account. Posted to some of my groups: "Love the group, and Ravelry, until today. Have been slandered and accused of 'white supremacism" as has the POTUS. Can't agree to a LIE about me. Adios!"


Obviously the majority of your buddies post lots of hate on Ravelry , now they are banned from campaigning everywhere and anywhere . GO RAVELRY . 
Bare faced hate is not good in any area and Trump supporters are experts at it , Join them , they are waiting .


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## antiqueone (Oct 2, 2013)

Celt Knitter said:


> You can believe what you want; however, if you are in business, or are a public entity of any sort, you cannot, by law, discriminate against people on the grounds of race, gender, ethnicity, etc. By supporting the baker, you are encouraging the breaking of the law. These laws are there for good reason. We have seen too many atrocities committed in the name of a belief! It has nothing whatsoever to do with socialism, a concept you clearly do not understand........surprising since it was a concept developed based on religious philosophy that we should all care for one another.
> 
> .


Re: the baker who refused to make a special cake for a gay couple---they did not refuse to sell a ready-made cake to them. They did not refuse service to a gay couple. They refused to design/make/decorate (all artistic-type endeavors) for a new, specially made cake for them, which is what SCOTUS ruled. I bake for a farmer's market, and sell to anyone who produces the money for the products I have there. I also take orders for special items----I bake vegan items, but would not be expected to bake a gluten-free item, for example. I'm not qualified, my kitchen is not prepared for that. And, BTW, the gay couple has admitted to shopping around until they found a baker who refused to comply with their request, SO THAT they could sue for discrimination.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

kittykatzmom said:


> They are cutting their own throat.


I doubt it. The owner of the spice company, Penzey's, has been writing anti-Trump posts since right after the 2016 election. His business has grown, not shrunk. His website does not have a forum for other opinions, and I'm sure he's lost some customers, but those who agree with him support him big time. I haven't bought spices in a grocery store in two years, fo4 example. We get to choose where we spend our money, and the expressed opinions of owners (Chick-fil-a, Hobby Lobby) figure into my decisions. Ravelry has not banned Trump supporters from the website. It has banned their hateful rhetoric AND, I might note, has banned bullying of anyone on the site. Hooray for them!


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## LauraJ66 (Mar 27, 2019)

The policy doesn't bother me. What bothers me is being told that by supporting our president, I support while supremacy. That could not be further from the truth. I will be closing my account with Ravelry immediately.


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## Swiss Miss KT (Jan 21, 2013)

Cookiecat,

I agree whole heartedly with your statement! How can they allow the politics of the left on their site. I have been on their site for Knitting not for political reasons. Stop the insanity! This Administration has done more for all people then former administrations. There is no civility left in this country. God Bless America!


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## eeaton (Apr 13, 2012)

I agree completely.


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## hobbyknit (Jun 23, 2013)

I am speechless!! I will never buy from Ravelry again. This stuff is getting out of hand.


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## shoppingwithsunshine (Jul 25, 2012)

jmcret05 said:


> Why?? It is their forum and their business. You don't know what prompted their decision, nor do I. If it was because they didn't want Ravelry to turn into a political forum, or because they believe that he fosters the wrong talks/discussions, it is their call.


????????????????????????

I sent an email congratulating them on their stance .


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## HOVE (May 6, 2016)

Thank you Ravelry!


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## meval (Nov 8, 2018)

I agree..I am restricted...while asking them how to close my account...I made a few statements on how this was wrong..TO close your account you have to request it....


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## mossstitch (Nov 6, 2013)

Sewbizgirl said:


> This site is just as bad, re: political polarization! I have always hated Ravelry (which is currently flying the gay rainbow flag). I was banned from their site back in the early days of Obama, for voicing my opinions IN A CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL GROUP they allowed. I haven't missed all the hate, bullying and division one bit. I started hanging out here instead, but then left several years ago. Now, coming back, I see it's just like Ravelry in politics.
> 
> Can't we get away from all the political bashing and name calling, not to mention disinformation, on a CRAFT SITE, for crying out loud? Neither politics nor religion should be allowed either here or on Ravelry. Just seeing some of the thread titles makes my blood pressure go up. I don't need it.


Stay in the Solarium and your wishes will be granted !!


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## grfew (Feb 16, 2011)

Beachgirl1000 said:


> I applaud this statement by Ravelry.


 :sm24:


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## samettler (Aug 24, 2015)

I fail to understand why anyone would think stating political views on ravelry or knitters paradise is appropriate. We come to these forums to make friends, share patterns and help each others with the craft. I belong to several local knitting groups and ALL of them agree religion and politics are not subjects open for discussion. They have nothing to add to our enjoyment of the craft. This is my first time to respond to anything on a political subject. From now on I will continue to keep my views to myself and ignore those whos want to do otherwise.


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## Starbuckxvi (Jan 25, 2019)

I applaud Ravelry’s new policy and am proud to be a member. The only reason to be upset about it is if one feels they really MUST mention Trump in their comments. So if you feel you really MUST mention Trump in your comments, then by all means delete your account.


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## Starbuckxvi (Jan 25, 2019)

I applaud Ravelry’s new policy and am proud to be a member. The only reason to be upset about it is if one feels they really MUST mention Trump in their comments. So if you feel you really MUST mention Trump in your comments, then by all means delete your account.


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## mossstitch (Nov 6, 2013)

berlauk said:


> :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: Couldn't have said it better myself, Cookiecat! It seems the hatred and bias is coming from the left..bye bye Ravelry!


 GO RAVELRY , about time . Cheerio Mrs .


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## meval (Nov 8, 2018)

I am restricted...for comments I made about it being wrong...they did not reply on how to close my account....they have to close it


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## kikikat (Jun 24, 2019)

I have already done so. There are different ways to find a pattern just as there a different ways to express political opinions without passing judgement


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## Starbuckxvi (Jan 25, 2019)

Well, you JUST violated their new policy. They are following through on what what was stated in the policy. What did you expect? Really.


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## Rosesla (Mar 12, 2012)

This is absolutely crazy sad and embarrassing. 
This was not a political ban it was a Trump ban. Like it or not he is our president and I am tired of hearing how horrible I am because I voted for him I am not deplorable or any of the other things I have been called because I chose to support a man that I believed would be the best for our country. 
This ban is stupid to say the least. Just my opinion and I’m sure no one cares.


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## kikikat (Jun 24, 2019)

Starbuckxvi said:


> Well, you JUST violated their new policy. They are following through on what what was stated in the policy. What did you expect? Really.


I made a mistake coming back to KP. Why are you so angry and mean. I don't know you and you don't know me. I just stated my opinion


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## nanbobs (Jun 29, 2017)

It's a stupid decision, and I'm done with Ravelry until it changes.


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## p632 (Jun 24, 2019)

I agree. The biggest objection I have to banning all things Trump on Ravelry is it supports the divisiveness we're experiencing. The proper stance from Ravelry should have been banning all content that has nothing to do with knitting and crocheting. There is no place on a crafting site for political rhetoric, or other non-crafting opinions.

And, for those who are confused.......there's a difference between being a Nationalist who is Caucasian and being a White Supremacist. 

Thank you!


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## Swiss Miss KT (Jan 21, 2013)

Jessica-Jean said:


> To answer the subject line (WHY must there be POLITICAL DIVISION everywhere?), it's because we are humans, and what differentiates us from the other species on this planet is our (too often pointless) argumentativeness and insistence on complaining about absolutely _*everything*_ under the sun.
> 
> I do wish this hadn't been posted in Main. It's the only section I'm subscribed to, because I do not want to discuss non-yarny topics.


Jessica-Jean I agree with you. I subscribed to this site and Ravelry for Knitting not politics. The hate people have today is disturbing! Let's enjoy what we love to do with our hands.


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## Jaevick (Feb 14, 2011)

Why not ban ALL political commentaries instead of just one side of it?

Bad move Ravelry. Bad move.


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## valericz (Sep 10, 2013)

Thank you so much for posting this. I have written to the administrators of Ravelry and have deleted my account. Imagine them calling supporters of our President (therefore, supporters of our COUNTRY) WHITE SUPREMACISTS?? That is one of THE most ignorant things I've heard. Aside from the general hate they are showing, don't they realize that not every supporter of President Trump is "white"??? Ignorance at its finest... Unfortunately for Ravelry, they are the ones who are intolerant and are spewing hate. Unbelievable!!


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## valericz (Sep 10, 2013)

janec1128 said:


> The title of the article you cite is misleading. Here is Ravelry's policy in full. I congratulate Ravelry.
> 
> Ravelry Policy: Do Not Post In Support of Trump or his Administration
> Sunday, June 23rd 2019
> ...


You CONGRATULATE Ravelry?? What's so misleading?? They come right out, as plain as day, and call everyone who supports theTrump administration a WHITE SUPREMACIST!! That's spewing hate... And you congratulate them?? WOW!! UNREAL!!


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## Temple (Jun 18, 2012)

collectordolls said:


> I agree. Just ban all political discussions it is a craft site. If someone posts a pattern that you do not agree with just don't make whatever it is. Everyone is entitled to their own ideas


 :sm24:


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## Temple (Jun 18, 2012)

MommaCrochet said:


> Though I don't use the site much, I agree, I'd rather they just ban political discussions from Ravelry
> Tina


 :sm24:


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## Temple (Jun 18, 2012)

nitnana said:


> Is this any different than banning certain persons from doing business in my bakery, florist, etc.? Just thinkin' out loud here!Hmmmmm!! :sm07:


Seems the same to me.


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## MindyT (Apr 29, 2011)

Good for Ravelry. They are a private company, so their policies are their own. I support their policy as written in the long form.


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## Temple (Jun 18, 2012)

GrumpyGramma said:


> https://www.ravelry.com/about
> 
> I see no mention of religion or politics in their statement. All discussion of religion and politics should be banned. I don't care who supports what, I'm interested in knitting and crochet.


 :sm24:


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## Cheryl_K (May 23, 2011)

YarnStalker said:


> No, it doesn't.
> Those who voice their opinions even in the opposite will be flagged. It's serious.
> 
> Now, they also need to seek out the bullies who are making derogatory comments about some others and making up lies in some of the forums about others including designers who have had serious issues in their lives including life threatening illnesses. There's a group who claims that those who are fighting cancer are just making up the whole story for publicity.
> ...


I am very sorry that those things happened to you. Please don't assume that I condone any such behavior. I do not, and I don't appreciate your assumption. As I stated several pages back, I deleted my Ravelry account yesterday because I don't agree with their decision. You are free to do as you see fit as well.


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## gdiane (Sep 17, 2014)

I agree. I, too, don’t use the site often. Never noticed any political crafts posted, so when I read the announcement, I was confused. Why is there political postings on a craft site? 
And if you’re not in agreement with the post, move on.


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## grandmatimestwo (Mar 30, 2011)

I support everyone's right to have their own opinions....about everything! Seems to me that if you start excluding one group, it leads to excluding another and then another and so on. Suddenly you have a very small group of people who think that only what they believe is right.


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## CBratt (Dec 6, 2012)

I am proud to be a member of Ravelry. So glad they took a stand for decency, honesty and the American way!


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## Byrney (Nov 9, 2015)

collectordolls said:


> I agree. Just ban all political discussions it is a craft site. If someone posts a pattern that you do not agree with just don't make whatever it is. Everyone is entitled to their own ideas


Being a white supremacist or supporting a white supremacist isn't simply an opinion, it's downright wrong.


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## Starbuckxvi (Jan 25, 2019)

I agree with all who don’t think that sites like this and Ravelry are appropriate for political discussion. That being said, evidenced by this thread here, that ship has sailed. So that being the case, can we at least have a meaningful discussion about it and try to understand the different points of view? P632, talk to me about the difference between being a white Nationalist and being a white supremicist. I really want to understand because until now I thought they were the same thing. 
Also, I think people need to get beyond their indignation about the policy and try understand that for people of color, comments in favor of Trump make us uncomfortable to say the least. Ravelry is just trying to be a welcoming site where I don’t have to be made to feel uncomfortable and can just enjoy the craft and interacting with others about the craft.


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## tonyastewart (Sep 1, 2014)

I would like to write to them because the answer is to ban all political conversations and if it were up to me and it's probably a good thing that it isn't up to me, I would ban it here too. Politics tend to be inflammatory and easily out of control conversations. I was raised that the quickest way to lose your friends is conversations on politics or religion.
Tonda USA XOX


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## Cheryl_K (May 23, 2011)

grandmatimestwo said:


> I support everyone's right to have their own opinions....about everything! Seems to me that if you start excluding one group, it leads to excluding another and then another and so on. Suddenly you have a very small group of people who think that only what they believe is right.


Exactly!


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## kkaallard (Jul 3, 2016)

CopperEagle said:


> I stand with Ravelry. I will not support a government that openly and cruelly abuses children, people of different religions, people of different ethnic backgrounds, and anyone who dares challenge them. The world tolerated this behavior in the past and that is forever to our shame.


And did you support Obama's use of cages for the detention of illegal children? You know that many of the pictures paraded by the press where from his administration


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## Byrney (Nov 9, 2015)

tonyastewart said:


> I would like to write to them because the answer is to ban all political conversations and if it were up to me and it's probably a good thing that it isn't up to me, I would ban it here too. Politics tend to be inflammatory and easily out of control conversations. I was raised that the quickest way to lose your friends is conversations on politics or religion.
> Tonda USA XOX


But everything is a part of politics - air, water, the oceans, cost of food, taxes, education, employment, gas, coal, wind turbines, the cost of yarn and countries that it comes from, animal welfare - where do you buy your yarn? acrylics - are they bad for the environment, parenting, social care, health costs etc. etc. etc. What on earth would there be left to discuss?


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Starbuckxvi said:


> I agree with all who don't think that sites like this and Ravelry are appropriate for political discussion. That being said, evidenced by this thread here, that ship has sailed. So that being the case, can we at least have a meaningful discussion about it and try to understand the different points of view? P632, talk to me about the difference between being a white Nationalist and being a white supremicist. I really want to understand because until now I thought they were the same thing.
> Also, I think people need to get beyond their indignation about the policy and try understand that for people of color, comments in favor of Trump make us uncomfortable to say the least. Ravelry is just trying to be a welcoming site where I don't have to be made to feel uncomfortable and can just enjoy the craft and interacting with others about the craft.


I take it that you are not in agreement that trump is the best thing to happen for Hispanic and African Americans as so often is posted on here?


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

kkaallard said:


> And did you support Obama's use of cages for the detention of illegal children? You know that many of the pictures paraded by the press where from his administration


You really haven't been keeping up. Whataboutism is no defense of what atrocities are being perpetrated.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

kkaallard said:


> And did you support Obama's use of cages for the detention of illegal children? You know that many of the pictures paraded by the press where from his administration


And your information comes from???


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

jmcret05 said:


> Why?? It is their forum and their business. You don't know what prompted their decision, nor do I. If it was because they didn't want Ravelry to turn into a political forum, or because they believe that he fosters the wrong talks/discussions, it is their call.
> 
> What is unacceptable about the owners of a forum changing their policy to suit their own values? No one is required to visit Ravelry, or download their many free patterns, or post their finished projects.
> 
> Hobby Lobby has some policies that I don't agree with and Chick-fil-A isn't open on Sunday. It is their policy and although unacceptable to some, it just is not worth discussing. I don't support either of those two. That's my decision.


Thanks Bugs (?) for saving me the trouble of mentioning these two businesses that are quite clear about their politics as was Curves before they were forced to close most of their places.


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## jmcret05 (Oct 24, 2011)

LauraJ66 said:


> The policy doesn't bother me. What bothers me is being told that by supporting our president, I support while supremacy. That could not be further from the truth. I will be closing my account with Ravelry immediately.


Ravelry did not in any way suggest that if you support Trump that you support white supremacy. They have determined that THEY do not want to permit dialog on their site that supports Trump, who they feel supports white supremacy.

All Trump supporters do not support ALL of his beliefs. Trump has not shown that he DOES NOT support white nationalists by his words and actions. Ravelry has only stated that they will not allow their site to contain diatribes that express that position. From either side.

Facebook did not take action when they should have and was infiltrated by those who wish to spread hate, distrust, and opposition. Ravelry appears to be taking steps to monitor and control political intrusion in their site.

We must all be more cautious with regard to what we read on any social media.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

SQM said:


> Thanks Bugs (?) for saving me the trouble of mentioning these two businesses that are quite clear about their politics as was Curves before they were forced to close most of their places.


I didn't know that about Curves; no big loss.

I support Penzey's spices and their "down with hate" stance.


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## CBratt (Dec 6, 2012)

KP Admin, please follow Ravelry's lead and ban all Trump support. Stand up for America - ALL of America!


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## mlab (Apr 10, 2016)

CBratt said:


> KP Admin, please follow Ravelry's lead and ban all Trump support. Stand up for America - ALL of America!


Excellent suggestion!


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## jmcret05 (Oct 24, 2011)

grandmatimestwo said:


> I support everyone's right to have their own opinions....about everything! Seems to me that if you start excluding one group, it leads to excluding another and then another and so on. Suddenly you have a very small group of people who think that only what they believe is right.


Ravelry clearly stated that everyone could support anyone, and any belief. They stated that *you just can't talk about it on Ravelry.* In other words, they don't want to know if you support or don't support any side. This applies to Republicans, Democrats, Independents, et al. Support whomever you want but don't take it into their site.

I'm sure that they do not allow a lot of pics and posts, but trust that most people have more common sense than to try to post them. They have regularly banned people who harass other members, or post hateful words. Perhaps they have been plagued more recently and are taking a stand, as is their perogative. It is not personal.


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## RobbiD (Nov 13, 2012)

pardoquilts said:


> I doubt it. The owner of the spice company, Penzey's, has been writing anti-Trump posts since right after the 2016 election. His business has grown, not shrunk. His website does not have a forum for other opinions, and I'm sure he's lost some customers, but those who agree with him support him big time. I haven't bought spices in a grocery store in two years, fo4 example. We get to choose where we spend our money, and the expressed opinions of owners (Chick-fil-a, Hobby Lobby) figure into my decisions. Ravelry has not banned Trump supporters from the website. It has banned their hateful rhetoric AND, I might note, has banned bullying of anyone on the site. Hooray for them!


Ya gotta give Penzey's credit for courage, seeing they are headquartered in Wisconsin. You know, the home of Paul Ryan, Scott Walker, and the state legislature that passed laws reducing the powers of the governor because their "fair-haired boy" lost to a Democrat.

Being a loyal customer of theirs, I agree, they may have lost some customers, but not too many. And I have to admit, I really like some of their sale promotions. "Rainbow of Spices" comes to mind. I also like that he will encourage people, regardless of political affiliation, to get out and VOTE. He also promotes many humanitarian issues. I even have an "Embrace Hope" (included in one of my orders) bumper sticker on my vehicle.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

For those out there who are dead set against politics being discussed - we used to say that Politics is the Personal.


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## spins2knit (Jul 29, 2013)

There must be a stand taken against the bigotry and hate of white supremacists! And of any who support them and their leaders!


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

RobbiD said:


> Ya gotta give Penzey's credit for courage, seeing they are headquartered in Wisconsin. You know, the home of Paul Ryan, Scott Walker, and the state legislature that passed laws reducing the powers of the governor because their "fair-haired boy" lost to a Democrat.
> 
> Being a loyal customer of theirs, I agree, they may have lost some customers, but not too many. And I have to admit, I really like some of their sale promotions. "Rainbow of Spices" comes to mind. I also like that he will encourage people, regardless of political affiliation, to get out and VOTE. He also promotes many humanitarian issues. I even have an "Embrace Hope" (included in one of my orders) bumper sticker on my vehicle.


Plus, their spices are excellent!


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

jmcret05 said:


> Ravelry clearly stated that everyone could support anyone, and any belief. They stated that *you just can't talk about it on Ravelry.* In other words, they don't want to know if you support or don't support any side. This applies to Republicans, Democrats, Independents, et al. Support whomever you want but don't take it into their site.
> 
> I'm sure that they do not allow a lot of pics and posts, but trust that most people have more common sense than to try to post them. They have regularly banned people who harass other members, or post hateful words. Perhaps they have been plagued more recently and are taking a stand, as is their perogative. It is not personal.


That kind if rhetoric invites more of the same from algorithm driven bots and trolls. Ravelry is getting ahead of the anticipated onslaught as the election year approaches. Very smart business move.


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## Starbuckxvi (Jan 25, 2019)

Lol ???? No.


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## jmanthe (Sep 23, 2012)

I agree, just leave the politics out of sites like this, we all have our opinons, so leave them somewhere else. This site is about Knitting and Crochet,. I don't care to hear or what your side of view on politics is.


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## LauraJ66 (Mar 27, 2019)

We are banning support of Donald Trump and his administration on Ravelry. We cannot provide a space that is inclusive of all and also allow support for open white supremacy. Support of the Trump administration is unambiguously support for white supremacy. For more details, read this document:

This is copied right from their home page. Like I said, I have no problem with their policy, but do NOT say that support white supremacy because I support the president.


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## lizzie91001 (Aug 14, 2016)

Damiano said:


> We ALL must tell Ravelry this is UNACCEPTABLE!!!


MUST we? I don't think so.


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## cbjllinda (Mar 6, 2016)

wow well then they can take me off of their list too. wonder how many of their suppliers are republicans they may be cutting off their noses to spite themselves. I can get along just fine without raverly.


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## absgrams (Apr 12, 2011)

This is a knitting and crochet forum if you want to talk TRump. Find another outlet 
There are tons of them


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## lizzie91001 (Aug 14, 2016)

LauraJ66 said:


> Like I said, I have no problem with their policy, but do NOT say that support white supremacy because I support the president.


I'm glad you don't support white supremacy. Many of us believe that this administration promotes policies that do exactly that. Ravelry's actions aren't an attack on you.


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## hilltopper (Jul 16, 2014)

Banning all political thought on a needlework-related site is one thing. Labeling someone a "white supremacist" is the equivalent of the Salem witch trials. America promises free speech. To deny that is anti-American. To alienate about half of your followers seems a poor business decision. Once again I feel it necessary to point out I am a life-long Democrat, but I know people who voted for Donald Trump and I am here to tell you they are hard-working and intelligent and law-abiding citizens with as many rights as any other citizen. Supporting stances like this is to take our country down a very dangerous path. It is more akin to fascism than to democracy. What will come next? Will their be support for the burning of books people do not agree with?


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## lizzie91001 (Aug 14, 2016)

kkaallard said:


> And did you support Obama's use of cages for the detention of illegal children? You know that many of the pictures paraded by the press where from his administration


Did you? Do you still? If you think it's okay now, then you must have supported the previous administration's policies. Or if you thought it was wrong then, you must think it's wrong now.

Which is it?


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

cbjllinda said:


> wow well then they can take me off of their list too. wonder how many of their suppliers are republicans they may be cutting off their noses to spite themselves. I can get along just fine without raverly.


Many LYS use Ravelry as additional revenue. Advertisement revenues are up since the announcement. Protrumpers have an inflated view of their clout.


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## runa fernanda (Oct 25, 2017)

Granny41 said:


> Let's have a bit of history on the author of the link attached to Damiano's post. It might, just might open some eyes as to what is going on https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/how-todd-starnes-is-compromising-fox-news-credibility/405118/


Thanks for this reference. A must read.


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## lindajjimenez (Aug 14, 2012)

I certainly stand with Ravelry! I think their decision was very sensible.


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## p632 (Jun 24, 2019)

I care and agree with you!


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## Cheryl_K (May 23, 2011)

Longtimer said:


> You should actually read the article.
> Your "pretty sure" will not be accurate.


I did read the article, and I read Ravelry's statement on their website all the way through. Thank you so much for assuming that I didn't. I have also re read it at every prompting on this thread, so my "pretty sure" is an absolutely sure now. Whether or not you think that's accurate makes no difference to me. Have a wonderful day.


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## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

I can't blame them for standing on their principles. I agree though that a blanket "no politics" would be preferable. I have to say, if they were pro-Trump rather than anti I would probably feel differently.


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## p632 (Jun 24, 2019)

Again....for those who are confused.....being a Nationalist that is Caucasian is not the same as being a White Supremacist. A Nationalist supports ALL of the nation. White Supremacists believe, like Adolph Hitler, that only white people are worthy of living in the world. In Hitler's case, only white, blond, blue-eyed people were worthy of living.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

p632 said:


> Again....for those who are confused.....being a Nationalist that is Caucasian is not the same as being a White Supremacist. A Nationalist supports ALL of the nation. White Supremacists believe, like Adolph Hitler, that only white people are worthy of living in the world. In Hitler's case, only white, blond, blue-eyed people were worthy of living.


White nationalism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

White nationalism is a type of nationalism or pan-nationalism which espouses the belief that white people are a race[1] and seeks to develop and maintain a white national identity.[2][3][4] Its proponents identify with and are attached to the concept of a white nation.[5] White nationalists say they seek to ensure the survival of the white race, and the cultures of historically white states. They hold that white people should maintain their majority in majority-white countries, maintain their political and economic dominance, and that their cultures should be foremost.[4] Many white nationalists believe that miscegenation, multiculturalism, immigration of nonwhites and low birth rates among whites are threatening the white race,[6] and some believe these things are being promoted as part of an attempted white genocide.[6]

Analysts describe white nationalism as overlapping with white supremacism and white separatism.[7][4][6][8][9][10] White nationalism is sometimes described as a euphemism for, or subset of, white supremacism, and the two have been used interchangeably by journalists and analysts.[8][11] White separatism is the pursuit of a "white-only state"; supremacism is the belief that white people are superior to nonwhites and should dominate them,[6][8][9] taking ideas from social Darwinism and Nazism.[12] White nationalists generally avoid the term "supremacy" because it has negative connotations.[13][14]

Critics argue that the term "white nationalism" is simply a "rebranding" and ideas such as white pride exist solely to provide a sanitized public face for white supremacy, and that most white nationalist groups promote racial violence


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## cbjllinda (Mar 6, 2016)

well I wonder how their designers feel about this. I know I will not go there to purchase designs any more.


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## p632 (Jun 24, 2019)

Key words here are: journalists and analysts 

Journalists have become a crew of news reporters who interject their personal opinions/corporate opinions into the reports. They do not report both sides of a story, like they did back in the day. Analysts are about the same, choosing one data set over another for their own spin on things.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

p632 said:


> Key words here are: journalists and analysts
> 
> Journalists have become a crew of news reporters who interject their personal opinions/corporate opinions into the reports. They do not report both sides of a story, like they did back in the day. Analysts are about the same, choosing one data set over another for their own spin on things.


In other words, you don't like this definition, so you trash some of the people reporting it. Just who would you believe?


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Irene1 said:


> ... *I just wish all voters who see something controversial do a little actual research from dependable sources and educate themselves.* ...


Faint hope!


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## p632 (Jun 24, 2019)

Not CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, and lately not even Fox! I've watched a few things and then seen the news reports where things have been edited to fit certain political views.


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## lizzie91001 (Aug 14, 2016)

p632 said:


> Again....for those who are confused.....being a Nationalist that is Caucasian is not the same as being a White Supremacist. A Nationalist supports ALL of the nation.


So say you, but history's best-known nationalist movement is the Nazi Party, and the word "nationalism" commonly connotes a belief in white supremacy. You can trot out all the dictionary definitions you like, but if you insist on calling yourself a nationalist, many of us will associate you with flag-waving, Jew-hating, race-baiting Charlottesville types who also call themselves nationalists.

And your defense against that is to call the rest of us "confused?"


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

p632 said:


> Not CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, and lately not even Fox! I've watched a few things and then seen the news reports where things have been edited to fit certain political views.


How about NPR or PBS?


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## marg 123 (Oct 17, 2012)

I am too busy knitting to be bothered with politics.


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## p632 (Jun 24, 2019)

So what would you call a person who believes in their nation? I call them a patriot and a nationalist. Can't help wondering what the US would be like if the election went the other way. Would there even be an USA, or would it be a "New World Order"?


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## knitter828 (Jun 24, 2019)

My favorite designer wholeheartedly supports Ravelry!


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## MrsMurdog (Apr 16, 2013)

I could understand a NO Politics ban, but a discriminatory attack is not acceptable to ME. Time to vote with my feet.


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## colleenmay (Apr 5, 2012)

So you cannot post on Ravelry in support of Trump but you can post all you want showing hate for Trump??????? If you read their statement carefully, this is true. They have lost many customers on this day.


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## lizzie91001 (Aug 14, 2016)

pardoquilts said:


> How about NPR or PBS?


These are my preferred sources, along with the BBC World News. You can often infer that interviewers have a personal point of view, but they do make every effort to be fair in airing all sides of issues.

Nevertheless, most Trump supporters will tell you that these three news organizations suffer as much from liberal-media bias as CNN, etc. Trump says that the press (except for Fox) is the enemy of the people, and we all know he never lies.


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

Celt Knitter said:


> Why is a strongly-held religious view more acceptable than a strongly held political view? It isn't and the consequences of both have resulted in mass atrocities throughout history.
> 
> The Trump administration is now demanding access to visa applicants' social media accounts, which is a massive intrusion on people's privacy, and which means that anyone who expresses disagreement with the ethos of the administration will not be granted a visa.
> 
> ...


Please do show where Ravelry stated they "hate" anything, otherwise, what you're stating is a lie. Ravelry is enacting this policy because they do not support hate. I've noticed that folks who voice their support of trump have a habit of using the word "hate" a lot - especially using towards what they consider to be "the left" which, apparently, is anybody who does not agree with those same folks.

And please, go through all those profiles of those who do not like Trump here on KP and show me when and how they use the word "hate" - in the context of how they use the word. The only time I've seen it used is by those same people is either "I don't hate Trump" (as someone has accused them of doing), which is the opposite of what you state or "I hate that policy" used towards policies that hurt people, both of which are not expressing hate as you have indicated.

When you demonize more than 51% of Americans (there are more registered Democrats than Republicans) simply because they don't agree with your point of view, you are, in truth, building hatred within yourself and attempting to justify that hatred.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

jmcret05 said:


> ...
> *We must all be more cautious with regard to what we read on any social media.*


. :sm24: :sm24: :sm24:


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## Montana Gramma (Dec 19, 2012)

kristym said:


> I really don't care. Sick of the hatred I see in both sides. Ban all discussion of not just Trump but ALL politicians then to be fair. No Obama, Pelosi, or other political mentions or patterns etc I never went to Ravelry for anything but pattern inspiration anyway


I guess I have only ever gone to the site for a definite pattern as I did not know they had opinion pages? Well I just get tired of opinions when I only want to create so will try and keep another site from making me be a super sleuth to over look and bypass all that to get to what I really want. Some days there is much to be said for being off the grid!


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## p632 (Jun 24, 2019)

colleenmay said:


> So you cannot post on Ravelry in support of Trump but you can post all you want showing hate for Trump??????? If you read their statement carefully, this is true. They have lost many customers on this day.


AMEN!


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

runa fernanda said:


> Thanks for this reference. A must read.


My pleasure :sm01:


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> How about NPR or PBS?


YES!!! And the BBC too.


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## lizzie91001 (Aug 14, 2016)

p632 said:


> So what would you call a person who believes in their nation? I call them a patriot and a nationalist.


"Patriot" is a good enough adjective for a person who believes in their nation. "Nationalist" means "racist" to many of us. Don't blame me-blame the Nazis who make nationalism a central feature of their platform.

In my opinion, a nationalist is not a patriot. Those nationalists at Charlottesville were not patriots.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

lizzie91001 said:


> These are my preferred sources, along with the BBC World News. You can often infer that interviewers have a personal point of view, but they do make every effort to be fair in airing all sides of issues.
> 
> Nevertheless, most Trump supporters will tell you that these three news organizations suffer as much from liberal-media bias as CNN, etc. Trump says that the press (except for Fox) is the enemy of the people, and we all know he never lies.


Mine, too. I do think it is fascinating that PBS and NPR reporters are totally unafraid to say when Trump or of one of his minions is flat out lying.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> Mine, too. I do think it is fascinating that PBS and NPR reporters are totally unafraid to say when Trump or of one of his minions is flat out lying.


Fox is now doing it too.


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

targa416 said:


> Since this topic is posted in the Main section (where it doesn't belong), it came across my radar screen. Personally, I don't know why anyone who subscribes to a knitting / crochet forum or website would EXPECT to be allowed to discuss politics or why they would criticize a privately-owned business (Ravelry) for making its own rules (which it has every right to do). I love Ravelry and I wish KP would follow Ravelry's example in this regard. Unfortunately, that's not likely to happen since on KP, any post = money for the owner. I expect that's at least one reason there are less and less knitting / crochet topics that are interesting. I think a lot of members just don't bother logging in anymore.


Knitting Paradise is also privately owned.....


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Why? This is a free country.



Damiano said:


> I don't care where we all stand politically. We ALL must tell Ravelry this is UNACCEPTABLE!!!
> 
> https://www.toddstarnes.com/politics/knitting-website-tells-trump-supporters-they-are-no-longer-welcome/


----------



## Orangewoman (Nov 3, 2016)

I for one are thrilled with their decision as we watch daily how this man destroys our democracy and almost brought us to the brink of war last week--I thought they wrote an excellent position paper that was very clear.
I was sorry that the first person today brought this politics to this page which is for knitting and crocheting not politics.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

pardoquilts said:


> White nationalism
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> White nationalism is a type of nationalism or pan-nationalism which espouses the belief that white people are a race[1] and seeks to develop and maintain a white national identity.[2][3][4] Its proponents identify with and are attached to the concept of a white nation.[5] White nationalists say they seek to ensure the survival of the white race, and the cultures of historically white states. They hold that white people should maintain their majority in majority-white countries, maintain their political and economic dominance, and that their cultures should be foremost.[4] Many white nationalists believe that miscegenation, multiculturalism, immigration of nonwhites and low birth rates among whites are threatening the white race,[6] and some believe these things are being promoted as part of an attempted white genocide.[6]
> ...


Neighbor - you are quite brilliant today. Keep up the good fight.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

As I understand, hate groups and white supremacy comments are never acceptable. I have no problem with that. In fact I applaud it.



bokemom said:


> Here is a link to the actual Ravery site explaining their new policy.
> https://www.ravelry.com/content/no-trump


----------



## p632 (Jun 24, 2019)

You picked the WRONG definition, here's the correct one:

Nationalism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Nationalism is an ideology and movement characterized by the promotion of the interests of a particular nation,[1] especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining the nation's sovereignty (self-governance) over its homeland. Nationalism holds that each nation should govern itself, free from outside interference (self-determination), that a nation is a natural and ideal basis for a polity,[2] and that the nation is the only rightful source of political power (popular sovereignty).[1][3] It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity-based on shared social characteristics such as culture, language, religion, politics, and belief in a shared singular history[4][5][page needed]-and to promote national unity or solidarity.[1] Nationalism, therefore, seeks to preserve and foster a nation's traditional culture, and cultural revivals have been associated with nationalist movements.[6] It also encourages pride in national achievements, and is closely linked to patriotism.[7][page needed] Nationalism is often combined with other ideologies, such as conservatism (national conservatism) or socialism (socialist nationalism) for example.[2]

Nationalism as an ideology is modern. Throughout history, people have had an attachment to their kin group and traditions, to territorial authorities and to their homeland, but nationalism did not become a widely-recognized concept until the 18th century.[8] There are three paradigms for understanding the origins and basis of nationalism. Primordialism (perennialism) proposes that there have always been nations and that nationalism is a natural phenomenon. Ethnosymbolism explains nationalism as a dynamic, evolutionary phenomenon and stresses the importance of symbols, myths and traditions in the development of nations and nationalism. Modernism proposes that nationalism is a recent social phenomenon that needs the socio-economic structures of modern society to exist.[9]

There are various definitions of a "nation", however, which leads to different strands of nationalism. Ethnic nationalism defines the nation in terms of shared ethnicity, heritage and culture, while civic nationalism defines the nation in terms of shared citizenship, values and institutions, and is linked to constitutional patriotism. The adoption of national identity in terms of historical development has often been a response by influential groups unsatisfied with traditional identities due to mismatch between their defined social order and the experience of that social order by its members, resulting in an anomie that nationalists seek to resolve.[10] This anomie results in a society reinterpreting identity, retaining elements deemed acceptable and removing elements deemed unacceptable, to create a unified community.[10] This development may be the result of internal structural issues or the result of resentment by an existing group or groups towards other communities, especially foreign powers that are (or are deemed to be) controlling them.[10] National symbols and flags, national anthems, national languages, national myths and other symbols of national identity are highly important in nationalism.[11][12][13][14]

In practice, nationalism can be seen as positive or negative depending on context and individual outlook. Nationalism has been an important driver in independence movements, such as the Greek Revolution, the Irish Revolution, the Zionist movement that created modern Israel, and the dissolution of the Soviet Union.[15][16] Conversely, radical nationalism combined with racial hatred was also a key factor in the Holocaust perpetrated by Nazi Germany.[17] More recently, nationalism was an important driver of the controversial annexation of Crimea by Russia.


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## p632 (Jun 24, 2019)

The bottom line here is: Political rhetoric and ideology doesn't belong on a crafting website and those who insist on posting this kind of "trash" there deserve to be banned. If Knitting Paradise chooses to ban me, then I accept that decision but, it should not be because of my views but because of the political nature of the posts. I've already unsubscribed from Ravelry because of their stance.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

p632 said:


> You picked the WRONG definition, here's the correct one:
> 
> Nationalism
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ...


 "It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity-based on shared social characteristics such as culture, language, religion, politics, and belief in a shared singular history[4][5][page needed]-and to promote national unity or solidarity.[1] Nationalism, therefore, seeks to preserve and foster a nation's traditional culture, and cultural revivals have been associated with nationalist movements."

And herein lies the problem. America is a country of diversity with citizens from many different countries and cultures. I think they are splitting hairs differentiating Nationalism from "Radical" Nationalism.


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## cornslower (Nov 1, 2015)

deenashoemaker said:


> Ravelry is picking and chosing what political affiliations it will be involved in. The only pattern I've ever paid for was FLKH. I'll miss browsing. Atleast here, I can use my ignore button.[/quoteThis Ravelry action just gets my Trump vote in 2020! I do not need ravelry!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You have listened to Trumps for so long that you can't tell what's a lie.



Cookiecat said:


> Agreed, Damiano! They accuse Trump and his supporters of being white supremacists, which is a LIE. I support Trump and his policies, and NEVER have supported any white supremacists. He is our PRESIDENT. Barefaced hatred from the Left is fine with Ravelry. Their FASCIST new policy has ruined Ravelry for me. :sm15: :sm15: :sm15: :sm15: :sm15: Notified Ravelry WHY, and deleted my account. Posted to some of my groups: "Love the group, and Ravelry, until today. Have been slandered and accused of 'white supremacism" as has the POTUS. Can't agree to a LIE about me. Adios!"


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We have passed the corner. Rational thinking and science will rise again.



Damiano said:


> Ravelry displays the LBTQ+ flag on it's site, AND allows designers of Democrat and Rainbow-themed patterns, AMONG OTHERS, to remain.
> 
> Ravelry even REMOVED patterns saved from certain designers that were in our libraries. I used these patterns for charity and fundraisers.
> 
> ALL I ASK, IS FOR THIS MADNESS TO STOP!!!


----------



## LisaJB (Dec 17, 2018)

painthoss said:


> Thanks for pointing out the facts, janec1128. And also thank you for posting what Ravelry really said. I for one completely support their stance and wish Congress could grow a spine.


????


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## cornslower (Nov 1, 2015)

cbjllinda said:


> well I wonder how their designers feel about this. I know I will not go there to purchase designs any more.


 DITTO!!!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Money is not the ultimate objective of ALL businesses. Example? Ben & Jerry's.



Montana Gramma said:


> How does Ravelry make their income, ads?
> Wonder what this will do to their bottom line.
> Seems like everyone interprets freedom of speech in their own way, their own company etc. regardless how extreme it may be to others. Encouraging members to seek out and inform on a certain class is extreme. Tatteling as an adult just doesn't ring my bell.
> Any other great sites out there that just promote knitting and crochet?
> We will all navigate towards what makes us comfortable, hopefully with fairness in mind.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for the wisdom JJ.



Jessica-Jean said:


> Only *IF* apathy ceases to rule the voters!!!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sewbizgirl said:


> This site is just as bad, re: political polarization! I have always hated Ravelry (which is currently flying the gay rainbow flag). I was banned from their site back in the early days of Obama, for voicing my opinions IN A CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL GROUP they allowed. I haven't missed all the hate, bullying and division one bit. I started hanging out here instead, but then left several years ago. Now, coming back, I see it's just like Ravelry in politics.
> 
> Can't we get away from all the political bashing and name calling, not to mention disinformation, on a CRAFT SITE, for crying out loud? Neither politics nor religion should be allowed either here or on Ravelry. Just seeing some of the thread titles makes my blood pressure go up. I don't need it.


KP doesn't seem the place for you. Sell your crafts elsewhere.


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## knittingmaven123 (Feb 6, 2019)

Damiano said:


> I don't care where we all stand politically. We ALL must tell Ravelry this is UNACCEPTABLE!!!
> 
> https://www.toddstarnes.com/politics/knitting-website-tells-trump-supporters-they-are-no-longer-welcome/


I don't know who toddstarnes is but he is advertising his free newsletter. Hmmm!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Very astute.



ckmc said:


> His actions and statements have shown time and time again that he is a white supremacist. He's also shown time and time again that he has no respect for women, nor does he have any respect for the law.
> 
> And I'm am NOT Leftist and I wish that the right would quit assuming that those who oppose trump and his policies are leftist. There are many of us who are or have been conservatives who don't like the man and think he is destroying the country.


 :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24:


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

p632 said:


> You picked the WRONG definition, here's the correct one:
> 
> Nationalism
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ...


Read the entire article. There are multiple definitions of nationalism, including ethnic nationalism further down in the article. Ravelry is stating it is against White Nationalism, which is what the Nazis promoted (as stated in the article).

Here is the Mirriam-Webster definition of nationalism: 
1 : loyalty and devotion to a nation 
especially : a sense of national consciousness (see consciousness sense 1c) exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

Here is the difference between Patriotism and Nationalism:

"Nationalism and Patriotism are two terms that show differences between them even though both of them are concerned with individual relationships towards nations. Nationalism consists in showing interest in the unification of a nation based on cultural and linguistic equanimity. On the other hand patriotism consists in developing love for a nation based on its values and beliefs. This is the major difference between nationalism and patriotism.

Nationalism gives a feeling that one's country is superior to another in every aspect and hence it is often described as the worst enemy of peace according to the great thinker George Orwell. On the other hand patriotism does not pave the way for enmity towards other nations but on the other hand strengthen the admiration towards one's own country. This is another important difference between nationalism and patriotism.

Patriotism is rooted in affection whereas nationalism is rooted in rivalry and hatred. Patriotism has peace as its substratum. In other words it can be said that patriotism works from the base of peace. On the other hand nationalism has militancy as substratum and it works from the base of enmity.

There is some difference between the two when it comes to the way in which a nationalist and a patriot think. A nationalist believes that his country is better than any other country whereas a patriot believes that his country is one of the best and that it can advance in many fields with effort and hard work.

Patriotism is thus considered a common property and is construed equal all over the world. On the other hand a nationalist considers that the people belonging to his own country alone are important. Patriotism expresses the love of an individual towards his country in a passive way. Nationalism is on the other hand aggressive in its concept."

Here is the source: Nationalism vs Patriotism http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-nationalism-and-vs-patriotism/

I love my country. I am a patriot - I am not a nationalist.


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## Dansmarin (Apr 12, 2011)

I believe in Free Speech. I also feel that political speech doesn't belong on a knitting forum or, if it is, should be in a separate section from knitting talk. I don't understand why Ravelry singled out "support of Trump" for exclusion from it's forum. Maybe because it's so hard to categorize white supremacy (https://n.pr/2FoS3QD) but 'support of Trump' is not the best definition. Moreover, white supremacy is not the only 'hate speech' expressed on public forums; hate speech also includes attacks on people with disabilities or the sexual orientation, or gender identity of someone. Why exclude only white supremacy comments; why not block other forms of hate speech like comments in support of gamblers, sex-traffickers, smoking, all of which are condemned by society. It's a slippery slope. I applaud Ravelry's intent to exclude hate speech from its web site, but think it could have been done more precisely and fairly.


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## hilltopper (Jul 16, 2014)

collectordolls said:


> I agree. Just ban all political discussions it is a craft site. If someone posts a pattern that you do not agree with just don't make whatever it is. Everyone is entitled to their own ideas


But that is not what is happening here. Only one group is being told they cannot voice their opinion. Terribly un-American seems to me.


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

hilltopper said:


> But that is not what is happening here. Only one group is being told they cannot voice their opinion. Terribly un-American seems to me.


Ravelry is an international site.


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## hilltopper (Jul 16, 2014)

Damiano said:


> I don't care where we all stand politically. We ALL must tell Ravelry this is UNACCEPTABLE!!!
> 
> https://www.toddstarnes.com/politics/knitting-website-tells-trump-supporters-they-are-no-longer-welcome/


You are so very right Damiano. This is a danger not to just one group of Americans but to the future of America. Stifling speech is never what this country was about. And should never be about. What kind of America do we want? What kind of America do we wish to leave to future generations? Not the same America we were all so fortunate to grow up in?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put. Bravo.



CopperEagle said:


> I stand with Ravelry. I will not support a government that openly and cruelly abuses children, people of different religions, people of different ethnic backgrounds, and anyone who dares challenge them. The world tolerated this behavior in the past and that is forever to our shame.


----------



## Byrney (Nov 9, 2015)

hilltopper said:


> But that is not what is happening here. Only one group is being told they cannot voice their opinion. Terribly un-American seems to me.


You think it's ok to promote white supremacy? You mean THAT group? Do you really think white supremacists deserve a platform?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

99eagles said:


> Just wondering if they will ban the left. Probably not.


Did you ever consider our Constitution? All men are created equal? Too leftist for you? You're in the wrong country.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Trump counts on inflaming his base while minorities are discouraged from voting. Register as many as possible. Encourage them to vote in mass. VOTE.



RookieRetiree said:


> You over estimate the trump supporting power. With 30% US and maybe 10% international, by weighted average, you'll never get to a 50%. It's decreasing continually.


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## Sanibean (Apr 11, 2013)

And, yet, they still post patterns for those stupid pink hats and Obama patterns. What started all this? A lady simply posted her pattern for a cowl that said "Make American Great Again". Trump 2020.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Why are you here now?



Knit crazy said:


> I left Ravelry once due to hateful liberal political posts supporting a Obama. Now I am leaving Ravelry for this poor decision.


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## p632 (Jun 24, 2019)

I'm 18 with 46 years of experience. One final thing......Is dying your hair to the same color as it was when you were 18 really make you look younger when your face is wrinkled up like a prune?


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## p632 (Jun 24, 2019)

I'm 18 with 46 years of experience. One final thing......Is dying your hair to the same color as it was when you were 18 really make you look younger when your face is wrinkled up like a prune?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I buy from Penzey's frequently and exclusively. They even have a local store.



pardoquilts said:


> I doubt it. The owner of the spice company, Penzey's, has been writing anti-Trump posts since right after the 2016 election. His business has grown, not shrunk. His website does not have a forum for other opinions, and I'm sure he's lost some customers, but those who agree with him support him big time. I haven't bought spices in a grocery store in two years, fo4 example. We get to choose where we spend our money, and the expressed opinions of owners (Chick-fil-a, Hobby Lobby) figure into my decisions. Ravelry has not banned Trump supporters from the website. It has banned their hateful rhetoric AND, I might note, has banned bullying of anyone on the site. Hooray for them!


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Sanibean said:


> And, yet, they still post patterns for those stupid pink hats and Obama patterns. What started all this? A lady simply posted her pattern for a cowl that said "Make American Great Again". Trump 2020.


I'm sure a policy statement worded this strongly was thought about long and hard and certainly not due to one project.


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## hilltopper (Jul 16, 2014)

painthoss said:


> Thanks for pointing out the facts, janec1128. And also thank you for posting what Ravelry really said. I for one completely support their stance and wish Congress could grow a spine.


Can't help wondering painthoss what it is you wish congress to grow a spine to do. Outlaw those who have a different opinion from yours? We have seen examples in this and. past centuries of that approach in other countries. I thought this country was doing pretty well all these years when they allowed folks to have different opinions. Guess our children will not have the luck we had to live in a Democracy where different points of view still existed. Guess we will not even need elections. Maybe just call Ravelry and ask who it is they think should be president. Why continue to waste all that money on campaigns and voting.


----------



## beanscene (Jun 9, 2012)

Beachgirl1000 said:


> I applaud this statement by Ravelry.


So do I.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

hilltopper said:


> Can't help wondering painthoss what it is you wish congress to grow a spine to do. Outlaw those who have a different opinion from yours? We have seen examples in this and. past centuries of that approach in other countries. I thought this country was doing pretty well all these years when they allowed folks to have different opinions. Guess our children will not have the luck we had to live in a Democracy where different points of view still existed. Guess we will not even need elections. Maybe just call Ravelry and ask who it is they think should be president. Why continue to waste all that money on campaigns and voting.


Where did they impinge on your free will to vote your conscience? They're just expressing their conscience. Are you saying you should be allowed (I do) but they shouldn't?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Jaevick said:


> Why not ban ALL political commentaries instead of just one side of it?
> 
> ***Because one side gropes young women without consent? Believes our enemies rather than our Intelligence departments? Bullies the handicapped? Puts himself above the law?Lies constantly even when confronted with video of himself ? Many, many more examples.****


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## Carolyn Mongeon (Jul 1, 2012)

Imagine that they are excluding liberals and see if your opinions are the same.


----------



## Aubreys gramma (Dec 26, 2014)

And you know Wikipedia is not a real source. It can be edited and added to by whoever. Even you can add verbiage. You might try a real dictionary for definitions.

be


pardoquilts said:


> White nationalism
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> White nationalism is a type of nationalism or pan-nationalism which espouses the belief that white people are a race[1] and seeks to develop and maintain a white national identity.[2][3][4] Its proponents identify with and are attached to the concept of a white nation.[5] White nationalists say they seek to ensure the survival of the white race, and the cultures of historically white states. They hold that white people should maintain their majority in majority-white countries, maintain their political and economic dominance, and that their cultures should be foremost.[4] Many white nationalists believe that miscegenation, multiculturalism, immigration of nonwhites and low birth rates among whites are threatening the white race,[6] and some believe these things are being promoted as part of an attempted white genocide.[6]
> ...


----------



## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

Carolyn Mongeon said:


> Imagine that they are excluding liberals and see if your opinions are the same.


They are not excluding conservatives. Please do show where they are excluding conservatives. They are excluding the promotion of Trump on their site and hate speech. You can be liberal or conservative - just don't promote Trump on their site or do hate speech.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Carolyn Mongeon said:


> Imagine that they are excluding liberals and see if your opinions are the same.


If the liberal is spouting intolerance of LGBTQ, legal immigration, etc., I'll be first in line to ask it be banned.


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## hilltopper (Jul 16, 2014)

berigora said:


> Perhaps when trump supporters can convince Ravelry that he is not a white supremacist, they might reverse their decision. I'm not holding my breath.


Well, thing is berigora, in this country - and I have always assumed in yours - people do no have to prove themselves INNOCENT of anything. Those accusing have to do the proving. Otherwise we have the Salem witch trials reborn and we can all figure out how we will prove we are NOT witches.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

RookieRetiree said:


> That kind if rhetoric invites more of the same from algorithm driven bots and trolls. Ravelry is getting ahead of the anticipated onslaught as the election year approaches. Very smart business move.


Agreed.


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

Damiano said:


> I don't care where we all stand politically. We ALL must tell Ravelry this is UNACCEPTABLE!!!
> 
> https://www.toddstarnes.com/politics/knitting-website-tells-trump-supporters-they-are-no-longer-welcome/


I think you'd get more readers if you were to repost this to "General Chit Chat." Right now, it's in the "Main" section, which deals with only knitting and crocheting.

Thanks.

Hazel


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## Bedo (Jun 4, 2018)

Exactly people are not reading it right. You hit it good for you


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

RookieRetiree said:


> Many LYS use Ravelry as additional revenue. Advertisement revenues are up since the announcement. Protrumpers have an inflated view of their clout.


May the numbers show in the next elections. Vote!


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

CorvallisKnitter said:


> They are not excluding conservatives. Please do show where they are excluding conservatives. They are excluding the promotion of Trump on their site and hate speech. You can be liberal or conservative - just don't promote Trump on their site or do hate speech.


I would love hate speech to be banned on far more forums. It doesn't matter who does hate speech. It doesn't matter which political party, which group engages in hate speech. I'm sure there are many forums out there that engage in hate speech daily, and they're available to those who wish to participate in them.

Plus, a political discussion, according to KP's rules, belongs on "General Chit Chat" and NOT on "Main," which is for knitting and crocheting ONLY.

Hazel


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## DeniseLQ (Apr 14, 2011)

Until all political posts are banned, I have deleted my ravelry account.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cheryl_K said:


> I did read the article, and I read Ravelry's statement on their website all the way through. Thank you so much for assuming that I didn't. I have also re read it at every prompting on this thread, so my "pretty sure" is an absolutely sure now. Whether or not you think that's accurate makes no difference to me. Have a wonderful day.


Reading + Rational thinking - Nice try.


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## moe47 (Jun 24, 2019)

Completely unacceptable!!! We should be able to accept diverse opinions - I truly shocked to see this happen. And to think that "liberals" believe themselves to be tolerant!!!!


----------



## Byrney (Nov 9, 2015)

hilltopper said:


> I thought this country was doing pretty well all these years when they allowed folks to have different opinions. Guess our children will not have the luck we had to live in a Democracy where different points of view still existed.


That was until Trump used the slogan "Make America Great Again", making people believe there was something wrong with it now, and only he could cure it. And then he told them it was the fault of the foreigners.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

lizzie91001 said:


> These are my preferred sources, along with the BBC World News. You can often infer that interviewers have a personal point of view, but they do make every effort to be fair in airing all sides of issues.
> 
> Nevertheless, most Trump supporters will tell you that these three news organizations suffer as much from liberal-media bias as CNN, etc. Trump says that the press (except for Fox) is the enemy of the people, and
> 
> we all know he never lies.




SATIRE


----------



## lizzie91001 (Aug 14, 2016)

hilltopper said:


> Well, thing is berigora, in this country - and I have always assumed in yours - people do no have to prove themselves INNOCENT of anything. Those accusing have to do the proving. Otherwise we have the Salem witch trials reborn and we can all figure out how we will prove we are NOT witches.


And when Trump is tried in a court of law, we must give him the presumption of innocence to which he's legally entitled.

In the meantime, we judge his administration on the basis of their speech and actions.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

How about when they show video of Trump or his minions contradicting themselves? That looks like a sure lie to me.



pardoquilts said:


> Mine, too. I do think it is fascinating that PBS and NPR reporters are totally unafraid to say when Trump or of one of his minions is flat out lying.


----------



## Fundogknit (Jul 22, 2015)

Damiano said:


> I don't care where we all stand politically. We ALL must tell Ravelry this is UNACCEPTABLE!!!
> 
> https://www.toddstarnes.com/politics/knitting-website-tells-trump-supporters-they-are-no-longer-welcome/[/quote
> 
> Their site, their rules, and I applaud them. Trump supporters are awful, and very fragile too.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Byrney said:


> That was until Trump used the slogan "Make America Great Again", making people believe there was something wrong with it now, and only he could cure it. And then he told them it was the fault of the foreigners.


Remember when he also said he'd build a wall and Mexico would pay for it?


----------



## suzhuz (Jan 16, 2013)

Thanks Books, I agree.


----------



## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Aubreys gramma said:


> And you know Wikipedia is not a real source. It can be edited and added to by whoever. Even you can add verbiage. You might try a real dictionary for definitions.
> 
> be


Thank you for pointing that out!!!


----------



## hilltopper (Jul 16, 2014)

CorvallisKnitter said:


> Please do show where Ravelry stated they "hate" anything, otherwise, what you're stating is a lie. Ravelry is enacting this policy because they do not support hate. I've noticed that folks who voice their support of trump have a habit of using the word "hate" a lot - especially using towards what they consider to be "the left" which, apparently, is anybody who does not agree with those same folks.
> 
> And please, go through all those profiles of those who do not like Trump here on KP and show me when and how they use the word "hate" - in the context of how they use the word. The only time I've seen it used is by those same people is either "I don't hate Trump" (as someone has accused them of doing), which is the opposite of what you state or "I hate that policy" used towards policies that hurt people, both of which are not expressing hate as you have indicated.
> 
> When you demonize more than 51% of Americans (there are more registered Democrats than Republicans) simply because they don't agree with your point of view, you are, in truth, building hatred within yourself and attempting to justify that hatred.


I am far more concerned with them deciding they can call him a White Supremacist when he has not declared himself to be one. We should not feel free to label other people with what we want to believe they are. That was already tried here in Salem, Massachusetts when females were labeled witches and were now expected to prove they were not. Whoever is making decisions at revelry can decide whom it is they choose to do business with. They do not get to charge American citizen with accusations they cannot prove.
As far as hatred goes there has been plenty of it to go around. If you don't see any hatred coming from the left I suggest you have not been paying close attention. And I say that as a life-long Democrat with a political philosophy that is pretty well progressive - and has been since before I was old enough to vote.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Byrney said:


> That was until Trump used the slogan "Make America Great Again", making people believe there was something wrong with it now, and only he could cure it. And then he told them it was the fault of the foreigners.


If you think about history ... EVERYTHING about the existence of the USA is "the fault of the foreigners". Unless you are a member of what Canada calls First Nation Peoples (Amerindians by others), you or your ancestors invaded the Americas and created what's here now. Foreigners they were.


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## BarbaraSD (Mar 10, 2011)

I wonder if this new policy is to get more subscribers to join the website. It disturbs me that non supporters can post but not the pro supporters. Personally, I wish all political comments be banned.


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## Byrney (Nov 9, 2015)

hilltopper said:


> I am far more concerned with them deciding they can call him a White Supremacist when he has not declared himself to be one. We should not feel free to label other people with what we want to believe they are. That was already tried here in Salem, Massachusetts when females were labeled witches and were now expected to prove they were not. Whoever is making decisions at revelry can decide whom it is they choose to do business with. They do not get to charge American citizen with accusations they cannot prove.
> As far as hatred goes there has been plenty of it to go around. If you don't see any hatred coming from the left I suggest you have not been paying close attention. And I say that as a life-long Democrat with a political philosophy that is pretty well progressive - and has been since before I was old enough to vote.


If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. You don't have to declare yourself a white supremacist to obviously be one.


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## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

Ravelry is no longer going to allow any pro-right views. However, they are going to allow pro-left views. It will be interesting to see how this works out for them. There are quite a few businesses/customers in Ravelry who are hearty pro-rights. I remember awhile ago reading many articles in the news about how certain restaurants allowed their customers or employees to chase out pro-Trump customers. But then they had to backslide very quickly when it hurt their business. So it will be very interesting to see how this works out for Ravelry.


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## cattdages (Aug 3, 2011)

hilltopper said:


> I am far more concerned with them deciding they can call him a White Supremacist when he has not declared himself to be one. We should not feel free to label other people with what we want to believe they are. That was already tried here in Salem, Massachusetts when females were labeled witches and were now expected to prove they were not. Whoever is making decisions at revelry can decide whom it is they choose to do business with. They do not get to charge American citizen with accusations they cannot prove.
> As far as hatred goes there has been plenty of it to go around. If you don't see any hatred coming from the left I suggest you have not been paying close attention. And I say that as a life-long Democrat with a political philosophy that is pretty well progressive - and has been since before I was old enough to vote.


I recall as a child being told to be careful of who I associated with as I would be judged by the company I kept. While I would not presume to say what Trump's personal beliefs are regarding persons of color, I can judge him by his associations and those whom he defends and counts among his supporters.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

hilltopper said:


> I am far more concerned with them deciding they can call him a White Supremacist when he has not declared himself to be one. We should not feel free to label other people with what we want to believe they are. That was already tried here in Salem, Massachusetts when females were labeled witches and were now expected to prove they were not. Whoever is making decisions at revelry can decide whom it is they choose to do business with. They do not get to charge American citizen with accusations they cannot prove.
> As far as hatred goes there has been plenty of it to go around. If you don't see any hatred coming from the left I suggest you have not been paying close attention. And I say that as a life-long Democrat with a political philosophy that is pretty well progressive - and has been since before I was old enough to vote.


Your witch analogy has been grossly over used today and is very tired. Trump by his actions has earned the label ascribed to him. Cases in point---
Comments after Charlottesville
His policy against Muslims
His S___Hole countries statement
His denigration of Latin Americans 
His & his late father's refusal to rent to Black people
Shall I continue?

ETA https://
By his own words he is a nationalist and all that entails--https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/23/us/politics/nationalist-president-trump.html


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## whale watcher (Aug 30, 2017)

kkaallard said:


> I've deleted my Ravelry account as well. I had been overlooking their support of the LGBTQ agenda, okay, it's Pride Month. I have a belief that this activity endangers one's soul. But their misguided belief that our president is a 'white supremacist' is just over the top! I agree that there is no place for political discussion on such a site. Pretty sure any suggestion to limit political discussion while Mr. Obama was president would have been met with cries of racism.
> 
> It's unfortunate, but as others have pointed out it's their right, just as it's mine to no longer support their platform.


Like my grandson; (who is 18) said...."why can't there be straight month"?


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## whale watcher (Aug 30, 2017)

pardoquilts said:


> His comment that there are "fine people" on both sides after the riot and murder in Charleston is a clear indication of his position. People who march under the Nazi banner are white supremacists; they cannot be defined as "fine people".


However; Black lives matter are "fine people"......hummmmm......interesting thought.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

whale watcher said:


> Like my grandson; (who is 18) said...."why can't there be straight month"?


That said it is plain to be seen that you have had no small hand in his upbringing. Great--another bigoted generation.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Carolyn Mongeon said:


> Imagine that they are excluding liberals and see if your opinions are the same.


If and when liberals ever behave as badly as Trump and his government, I hope liberals pushing/ignoring those kinds of behaviors and beliefs will be banned.


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

hilltopper said:


> I am far more concerned with them deciding they can call him a White Supremacist when he has not declared himself to be one. We should not feel free to label other people with what we want to believe they are. That was already tried here in Salem, Massachusetts when females were labeled witches and were now expected to prove they were not. Whoever is making decisions at revelry can decide whom it is they choose to do business with. They do not get to charge American citizen with accusations they cannot prove.
> As far as hatred goes there has been plenty of it to go around. If you don't see any hatred coming from the left I suggest you have not been paying close attention. And I say that as a life-long Democrat with a political philosophy that is pretty well progressive - and has been since before I was old enough to vote.


1) That's a strange (crazy) correlation to compare what Ravelry is doing the Salem Witch Trials. Not even on the same planet much less the same ball park.

2) From what I have seen you post, you are no "lifelong Democrat or Progressive". Your stated political views are also not on the same planet as Democrats or Progressives much less in the same ballpark. Please do show past posts where you are even sympathetic to Democratic or Progressive causes.

3) I asked you to provide the proof of what you state regarding hate. You're throwing it back at me without proof shows that you can't (or you're just too bloody lazy to back up what you state). I know what I have seen you and others say on this site, and I stand by what I have said about how the word "hate" is being used by those who consider themselves to be Trump supporters.


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## Cheryl_K (May 23, 2011)

damemary said:


> Reading + Rational thinking - Nice try.


??? Not sure what I'm "trying". Are you a mind reader?


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## Stellanator (Oct 8, 2017)

t


Damiano said:


> I don't care where we all stand politically. We ALL must tell Ravelry this is UNACCEPTABLE!!!
> 
> https://www.toddstarnes.com/politics/knitting-website-tells-trump-supporters-they-are-no-longer-welcome/


WHY MUST YOU POST IN THE WRONG SECTION!!


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## Stellanator (Oct 8, 2017)

Cheryl_K said:


> Ravelry account already deleted. I won't be missing it. I only saw the new policy today because I had a minute at work and thought I'd look at some knitting. I don't agree with their decision, so I'll look elsewhere, like here on KP. At least you can express your opinion here, no matter what it is.


YES THAT'S WHAT I WANT - OPINION ON A CRAFT SITE


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Granny41 said:


> Your witch analogy has been grossly over used today and is very tired. Trump by his actions has earned the label ascribed to him. Cases in point---
> Comments after Charlottesville
> His policy against Muslims
> His S___Hole countries statement
> ...


As many times as I have given these topics serious consideration, they still bring tears to my eyes. I can't help but wonder about those who somehow manage to overlook these facts that have been publicized repeatedly in the USA and abroad. I didn't realize there were so many American citizens, until the advent of Trump and his reign, who look the other way in the face of illegal and inhumane behaviors.


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## Cheryl_K (May 23, 2011)

Stellanator said:


> YES THAT'S WHAT I WANT - OPINION ON A CRAFT SITE


Please stop typing in all caps (AKA shouting). It's rude.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

DeniseLQ said:


> Until all political posts are banned, I have deleted my ravelry account.


Good for you to follow your beliefs.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

SAMkewel said:


> As many times as I have given these topics serious consideration, they still bring tears to my eyes. I can't help but wonder about those who somehow manage to overlook these facts that have been publicized repeatedly in the USA and abroad. I didn't realize there were so many American citizens, until the advent of Trump and his reign, who look the other way in the face of illegal and inhumane behaviors.


I edited my post to attach this link where Trump proclaims himself a Nationalist.https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/23/us/politics/nationalist-president-trump.html


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## luvnknittn (Jun 1, 2017)

I would like to know where Ravely gets off associating Trump supporters with being White Supremacy supporters. Oh wait, I forgot...liberals are in lockstep with their supreme leaders, therefore not allowed to think for themselves. (See what I did there?) I’m still waiting for the reams of proof other than what the biased media spew out that Trump is a racist and millions of conservatives are as well. And that doesn’t mean the vicious memes that some liberals love to post as proof. My point is, it’s wrong to automatically accuse conservatives of being racists, just like it’s wrong to accuse all liberals of being brain-dead robots. With sites like Facebook and Twitter allowing and enjoying the political vitriol, why do we have to put up with this political crap on knitting sites, where we go to get inspiration for making beautiful things for ourselves and others? Too bad we can’t vote about what’s allowed on Ravely and KP, because I’d definitely vote for no politics at all! 
Okay, I’m done, enjoy your day ????


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## 6catsplus1 (Jul 18, 2017)

Stellanator said:


> t
> 
> WHY MUST YOU POST IN THE WRONG SECTION!!


 :sm02: :sm09:


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

luvnknittn said:


> ... Too bad we can't vote about what's allowed on Ravely and KP, because I'd definitely vote for no politics at all! ...


Were we the owners of either website, we would be in control. 
Since we are _not_ the owners and don't pay for the use of either, we have no control over the rules. 
We do have control over our own actions.


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

luvnknittn said:


> I would like to know where Ravely gets off associating Trump supporters with being White Supremacy supporters. Oh wait, I forgot...liberals are in lockstep with their supreme leaders, therefore not allowed to think for themselves. (See what I did there?) I'm still waiting for the reams of proof other than what the biased media spew out that Trump is a racist and millions of conservatives are as well. And that doesn't mean the vicious memes that some liberals love to post as proof. My point is, it's wrong to automatically accuse conservatives of being racists, just like it's wrong to accuse all liberals of being brain-dead robots. With sites like Facebook and Twitter allowing and enjoying the political vitriol, why do we have to put up with this political crap on knitting sites, where we go to get inspiration for making beautiful things for ourselves and others? Too bad we can't vote about what's allowed on Ravely and KP, because I'd definitely vote for no politics at all!
> Okay, I'm done, enjoy your day ????


Trump has referred to himself as a Nationalist - here's the quote from a New York Times article: WASHINGTON - As a general rule, presidents do not refer to themselves as a "nationalist" given the freighted history of the word. But as President Trump tries to galvanize his conservative base to turn out in the midterm elections, he has adopted the label as a badge of honor.

At a rally in Houston on Monday night, he embraced the term as unabashedly as he ever has. "Really, we're not supposed to use that word," he told supporters in a nod to the usual political sensibilities that he relishes disrupting. "You know what I am? I'm a nationalist, O.K.? I'm a nationalist. Nationalist! Use that word! Use that word!"

Asked in the Oval Office on Tuesday why he used that word given its association with racist movements, Mr. Trump professed ignorance of its history but did not back off. "I never heard that theory about being a nationalist," he said. "I've heard them all. But I'm somebody who loves our country." Undaunted, he added: "I am a nationalist. It's a word that hasn't been used too much. Some people use it, but I'm very proud. I think it should be brought back."

There is a reason other presidents generally do not use that word about themselves. Typically, the term "nationalist" is employed by the United States government to describe political figures and forces in other countries that sometimes represent a threat. When used domestically, it is a word often tainted with the whiff of extremism, not least because a variant of it, white nationalist, describes racist leaders and groups. American politicians traditionally stick with the safer term "patriot."

http://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/23/us/politics/nationalist-president-trump.html


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## Fundogknit (Jul 22, 2015)

whale watcher said:


> Like my grandson; (who is 18) said...."why can't there be straight month"?


That's one of the most ignorant thing I've ever read.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

CorvallisKnitter said:


> Trump has referred to himself as a Nationalist - here's the quote from a New York Times article: WASHINGTON - As a general rule, presidents do not refer to themselves as a "nationalist" given the freighted history of the word. But as President Trump tries to galvanize his conservative base to turn out in the midterm elections, he has adopted the label as a badge of honor.
> 
> At a rally in Houston on Monday night, he embraced the term as unabashedly as he ever has. "Really, we're not supposed to use that word," he told supporters in a nod to the usual political sensibilities that he relishes disrupting. "You know what I am? I'm a nationalist, O.K.? I'm a nationalist. Nationalist! Use that word! Use that word!"
> 
> ...


I posted this link a couple of pages back :sm17:


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## Aubreys gramma (Dec 26, 2014)

And what is wrong with being a Nationalist? Donald Trump is the President of the USA. he believes in America first. He represents American citizens. Actually that is his job. That is why he was elected. That is what he meant when he said he was a Nationalist. Don't construe what the Times added in the article to what President Trump said.



Granny41 said:


> I edited my post to attach this link where Trump proclaims himself a Nationalist.https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/23/us/politics/nationalist-president-trump.html


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Aubreys gramma said:


> And what is wrong with being a Nationalist? Donald Trump is the President of the USA. he believes in America first. He represents American citizens. Actually that is his job. That is why he was elected. That is what he meant when he said he was a Nationalist. Don't construe what the Times added in the article to what President Trump said.


Perhaps you should read the definition of Nationalist and also you should be aware that the Nazi Party emerged from the German nationalist, racist and populist Freikorps paramilitary culture.


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## whale watcher (Aug 30, 2017)

Granny41 said:


> That said it is plain to be seen that you have had no small hand in his upbringing. Great--another bigoted generation.


I have rarely had ANY contact with him....he lives with his mother my EX daughter in law very far away.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Granny41 said:


> Perhaps you should read the definition of Nationalist and also you should be aware that the Nazi Party emerged from the German nationalist, racist and populist Freikorps paramilitary culture.


God forbid anyone learn from history!!!


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

whale watcher said:


> I have rarely had ANY contact with him....he lives with his mother my EX daughter in law very far away.


How sad for you. Grandchildren should know their grandparents.


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## bellagray (Nov 29, 2011)

lol! i never knew you could chat about anything, thought it was just a site for patterns!!!! LOL


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

RookieRetiree said:


> How sad for you. Grandchildren should know their grandparents.


In an ideal world, I would agree. However, there are _some_ grandparents who are better excluded from their grandchildren's lives. That is for the children's parents to decide.


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## Aubreys gramma (Dec 26, 2014)

Webster's New World Dictonary: nationalism n. 1 devotion to one's nation; patriotism 2 the advocacy of national independence

I'm sorry but those are not bad ideals to have.



Granny41 said:


> Perhaps you should read the definition of Nationalist and also you should be aware that the Nazi Party emerged from the German nationalist, racist and populist Freikorps paramilitary culture.


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## Aubreys gramma (Dec 26, 2014)

Aubreys gramma said:


> Webster's New World Dictonary: nationalism n. 1 devotion to one's nation; patriotism 2 the advocacy of national independence
> 
> I'm sorry but those are not bad ideals to have.


I do know about the Nazis. I also know about censorship and book burnings and rounding up people who have a different belief. What I don't know is how is that different than the censorship of today.


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## CBratt (Dec 6, 2012)

hilltopper said:


> You are so very right Damiano. This is a danger not to just one group of Americans but to the future of America. Stifling speech is never what this country was about. And should never be about. What kind of America do we want? What kind of America do we wish to leave to future generations? Not the same America we were all so fortunate to grow up in?


At least they can look in the mirror and sleep peacefully knowing they stood up for their principles. They most likely would ban support for Hitler too, or Mussolini, or any other person who openly supported white supremacy. I wager there are many people who died regretting not standing up against Hitler and his crew of cronies. We are headed in the very same direction with Mr. trump. I hope more and more sites do this. It is so refreshing.


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## hildy3 (Jan 29, 2011)

bokemom said:


> Here is a link to the actual Ravery site explaining their new policy.
> https://www.ravelry.com/content/no-trump


Thank you for posting that. I had not read the whole thing. Now, please, tell me if I understand it correctly. Ravelry wants no more talk about politics, Trump, or otherwise, as it should be.


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## CBratt (Dec 6, 2012)

hilltopper said:


> Can't help wondering painthoss what it is you wish congress to grow a spine to do. Outlaw those who have a different opinion from yours? We have seen examples in this and. past centuries of that approach in other countries. I thought this country was doing pretty well all these years when they allowed folks to have different opinions. Guess our children will not have the luck we had to live in a Democracy where different points of view still existed. Guess we will not even need elections. Maybe just call Ravelry and ask who it is they think should be president. Why continue to waste all that money on campaigns and voting.


White supremacy is never a good thing. trum supports it and so do most of his followers and the people he employs. That is what Ravelry is against - white supremacy - sorta being against the nazis.


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## painthoss (Jul 10, 2012)

hilltopper said:


> Can't help wondering painthoss what it is you wish congress to grow a spine to do. Outlaw those who have a different opinion from yours? We have seen examples in this and. past centuries of that approach in other countries. I thought this country was doing pretty well all these years when they allowed folks to have different opinions. Guess our children will not have the luck we had to live in a Democracy where different points of view still existed. Guess we will not even need elections. Maybe just call Ravelry and ask who it is they think should be president. Why continue to waste all that money on campaigns and voting.


I want them to hold trump accountable and protect our democracy, to protect different opinions and points of view.

Unlike you, I do not consider white supremacy a defendable point of view. It's not somebody's point of view, it is evil.


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## Byrney (Nov 9, 2015)

Aubreys gramma said:


> I do know about the Nazis. I also know about censorship and book burnings and rounding up people who have a different belief. What I don't know is how is that different than the censorship of today.


Don't forget calling journalists the enemy of the people.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Jessica-Jean said:


> God forbid anyone learn from history!!!


God forbid that a man who has NO knowledge of history be elected President of The United States of America. Further, God forbid that the people who made the onerous mistake of electing him continue to support him thereby becoming his enablers!


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## Louette (May 9, 2011)

I’m done with Ravelry. I’m certain they will not miss me nor shall I they.


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## painthoss (Jul 10, 2012)

Stellanator said:


> YES THAT'S WHAT I WANT - OPINION ON A CRAFT SITE


You certainly just gave us yours.


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

Granny41 said:


> I posted this link a couple of pages back :sm17:


I know - but for those who 1) refuse to open links or 2) don't have a subscription so can't read it - I thought it would be best to print out the exact words Trump said.

I apologize that I did not give you credit for posting the site.


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## Louette (May 9, 2011)

I agree with you Cheryl.



Cheryl_K said:


> Ravelry account already deleted. I won't be missing it. I only saw the new policy today because I had a minute at work and thought I'd look at some knitting. I don't agree with their decision, so I'll look elsewhere, like here on KP. At least you can express your opinion here, no matter what it is.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

GrumpyGramma said:


> https://www.ravelry.com/about
> 
> I see no mention of religion or politics in their statement. All discussion of religion and politics should be banned. I don't care who supports what, I'm interested in knitting and crochet.


I've been a member of Ravelry for years and never saw any of the hate speech. Not that it isn't there; it's because I don't go on their forums. I do go to some of the non-knitting sections here and have learned a lot about others views and strengthened my own. As so many of us have said before, it is easy to avoid what you don't want to see.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

CorvallisKnitter said:


> I know - but for those who 1) refuse to open links or 2) don't have a subscription so can't read it - I thought it would be best to print out the exact words Trump said.
> 
> I apologize that I did not give you credit for posting the site.


No problem. Even posted twice or even three times the naysayers will not read it.
Or if they do they will only see what they want to.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

knovice knitter said:


> I've been a member of Ravelry for years and never saw any of the hate speech. Not that it isn't there; it's because I don't go on their forums. I do go to some of the non-knitting sections here and have learned a lot about others views and strengthened my own. As so many of us have said before, it is easy to avoid what you don't want to see.


I have been a member for several years but only joined The Attic Forum when it was first created. I have never posted there. I would miss Ravelry immensely. My first go to when searching for a pattern. Also I use the library and check comments on completed projects for tips and hints.


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## Starbuckxvi (Jan 25, 2019)

I was thinking this morning is in reflection of this whole discussion, he may be a white supremicist, he might not. But what is known for sure is that he has not said he is not, he has not said that he doesn’t represent them, he has not said they don’t represent him. So if he is not, he is at the very least a white supremicist sympathizer, which, like being a Nazi Sympathizer, is just as bad.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Louette said:


> I'm done with Ravelry. I'm certain they will not miss me nor shall I they.


I'm sure they expected fallout and falloff of members. As you exit Ravelry, you can take your library of patterns along with you. They planned accordingly.


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## 59891 (Apr 18, 2012)

They deleted mine already! This am I went on to print something in my library! A baby hat pattern which I have used in the past. So I know it was there!
This am it was unavailable as were any and all of my others
Where are we going? Or rather it would appear that we are already there
Good riddance to Ravelry!
Those of you who support it. Enjoy!


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## 59891 (Apr 18, 2012)

I have never ever expressed an opinion politically on Ravelry but when I was first informed of this last night my comment was "asinine" that was it!
I have lived in 4 3rd world countries in my life! Never dreamed I'd retire to one!!


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Cookiecat said:


> There is NO action nor statement done by Trump supporting or enacting white supremacism. Facts not feelings. And yes you're correct, there are "conservative" Never-Trumpers who would prefer the Dems win, enact policies they themselves despise, just so Trump isn't in office. To each their own.


You don't consider banning Muslims from entering our country supremacist? You don't consider his treatment of all the "brown" asylum seekers from Central America supremacist? You don't consider saying the White Supremacists in Charlottesville are fine people supremacist? If not, you don't know the meaning of the word.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Your 'try' was when you finally read the original statement from Ravelry. You did not understand it rationally. Whata do you mean by 'mind reader?'



Cheryl_K said:


> ??? Not sure what I'm "trying". Are you a mind reader?


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## JMBeals (Nov 27, 2013)

antiqueone said:


> Re: the baker who refused to make a special cake for a gay couple---they did not refuse to sell a ready-made cake to them. They did not refuse service to a gay couple. They refused to design/make/decorate (all artistic-type endeavors) for a new, specially made cake for them, which is what SCOTUS ruled. I bake for a farmer's market, and sell to anyone who produces the money for the products I have there. I also take orders for special items----I bake vegan items, but would not be expected to bake a gluten-free item, for example. I'm not qualified, my kitchen is not prepared for that. And, BTW, the gay couple has admitted to shopping around until they found a baker who refused to comply with their request, SO THAT they could sue for discrimination.


THANK YOU, antiqueone, for posting the FACTS so clearly. Unfortunately, it probably won't matter to those who feed on the negative drama/agenda.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

peachy51 said:


> I agree with you ... just ban everything that is political ... but get rid of the double standard.
> 
> This is the communications I had with Ravelry today:
> 
> ...


Are you aware that 1 in 10 people are members of the LGBTQ community and were born that way? MAGA folks made a conscious choice to support a White Supremacist...not born that way. And guess what? Even if you made that choice, you can still participate fully on Ravelry as long as you don't use hateful comments. BTW, you clearly missed the point on the Women's March cat hats, didn't you?


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## Cheryl_K (May 23, 2011)

damemary said:


> Your 'try' was when you finally read the original statement from Ravelry. You did not understand it rationally. Whata do you mean by 'mind reader?'


Your post stated that I needed to combine "rational thinking" with my reading. Thanks for the clarification.
How did I not understand it rationally? It clearly states that Ravelry is banning all things that support Donald Trump or his administration. It says nothing about banning posts or patterns that are unsupportive of Trump or his administration. As I stated, I don't agree with their decision. I'm not sure why you think this thought process is irrational, but you're entitled to your opinion.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

paljoey46 said:


> Except they are not banning any mention of Trump: https://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/not-for-trump-fans-hat. Just banning, apparently, any support for Trump.
> 
> Sadly, this and other companies don't realize that they are upsetting probably half of their customer base. There has been a U.S. Politics discussion thread on Ravelry for a long time. It is open to anyone with something to say. Yes, it is currently mostly against Trump. Don't want to hear or read it? Don't, it's that simple. But to ban everything about Trump except what you apparently agree with is hypocritical.


I have a feeling that hat pattern will be pulled. Their new rules just started and there are thousands upon thousands of patterns to edit. Why don't you send a message to the adm. of Ravelry and point out the pattern. They should remove it as it would be considered baiting.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Louette said:


> I'm done with Ravelry. I'm certain they will not miss me nor shall I they.


:"They will not miss me, nor shall I (miss) them."


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Ladyj960 said:


> So am I reading the Ravelry policy right, that all Trump supporters are white supremacist? That's like saying all Black Americans are thugs, all Muslims are terrorist, all Hispanics are illegal.
> And, this was all figured out by a RPG company that probably makes games teaching people how to kill.
> I agree that politics needs to be left off some things. But, ALL, not just some.


It's not like saying that all Black Americans are thugs, all Muslims are terrorists and all Hispanics are illegal. That is what trump implies on a daily basis however. No, supporters of trump are supporting trump, who is a blatant White Supremacist, and therefore his policies. It is a choice. A Black cannot choose to be Black, a Muslim a Muslim or an Hispanic an Hispanic. They can choose to be thugs, terrorists or illegal. Most of them don't choose that life.


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## Starbuckxvi (Jan 25, 2019)

I just read that Ravelry has been overwhelmed with new members since the announcement. I don’t think they are regretting it. I even heard they have had to suspend accepting new members temporarily.


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## Ettenna (May 3, 2013)

I am so saddened by their decision. It is knitting for heavens sake! They do have the right to do it but I wish they would leave politics out of it. I respect everyone no matter what race &/or ethnicity but I do not always agree with certain political or moral viewpoints. But I continue to respect others rights to hold those views rather than automatically classifying them in a certain way. I am so sad that because I do not agree with certain things I am automatically classed as a ”hater”.


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## Stephhy (May 14, 2012)

Ettenna said:


> I am so saddened by their decision. It is knitting for heavens sake! They do have the right to do it but I wish they would leave politics out of it. I respect everyone no matter what race &/or ethnicity but I do not always agree with certain political or moral viewpoints. But I continue to respect others rights to hold those views rather than automatically classifying them in a certain way. I am so sad that because I do not agree with certain things I am automatically classed as a "hater".


THEY should leave politics out of it? How about WE leave politics out of it? Post our comments and feelings somewhere besides a knitting forum.


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## knitter828 (Jun 24, 2019)

RAVELRY has always had political forums. If don’t like to mix politics and knitting it is easy enough to avoid those forums.


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## Cheryl_K (May 23, 2011)

Starbuckxvi said:


> I just read that Ravelry has been overwhelmed with new members since the announcement. I don't think they are regretting it. I even heard they have had to suspend accepting new members temporarily.


Where did you read that? Can you please post a link?


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## Frandelia (May 24, 2011)

I sent an email to Ravelry thanking them for their policy. More people and organizations need to stand up for what is right.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Starbuckxvi said:


> I just read that Ravelry has been overwhelmed with new members since the announcement. I don't think they are regretting it. I even heard they have had to suspend accepting new members temporarily.


Fantastic!


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

knitter828 said:


> RAVELRY has always had political forums. If don't like to mix politics and knitting it is easy enough to avoid those forums.


Creative people have always been political.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Granny41 said:


> Let's have a bit of history on the author of the link attached to Damiano's post. It might, just might open some eyes as to what is going on https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/how-todd-starnes-is-compromising-fox-news-credibility/405118/


Good grief and that is her 'go-to' source. I couldn't even read the whole article as my stomach was churning.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Sewbizgirl said:


> This site is just as bad, re: political polarization! I have always hated Ravelry (which is currently flying the gay rainbow flag). I was banned from their site back in the early days of Obama, for voicing my opinions IN A CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL GROUP they allowed. I haven't missed all the hate, bullying and division one bit. I started hanging out here instead, but then left several years ago. Now, coming back, I see it's just like Ravelry in politics.
> 
> Can't we get away from all the political bashing and name calling, not to mention disinformation, on a CRAFT SITE, for crying out loud? Neither politics nor religion should be allowed either here or on Ravelry. Just seeing some of the thread titles makes my blood pressure go up. I don't need it.


Wow, you were banned? That's not easy to do. Let me guess your opinions of Mr. Obama had something to do with the color of his skin, right?


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## knitter828 (Jun 24, 2019)

Yes they do! ♥ RAVELRY


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

antiqueone said:


> Re: the baker who refused to make a special cake for a gay couple---they did not refuse to sell a ready-made cake to them. They did not refuse service to a gay couple. They refused to design/make/decorate (all artistic-type endeavors) for a new, specially made cake for them, which is what SCOTUS ruled. I bake for a farmer's market, and sell to anyone who produces the money for the products I have there. I also take orders for special items----I bake vegan items, but would not be expected to bake a gluten-free item, for example. I'm not qualified, my kitchen is not prepared for that. And, BTW, the gay couple has admitted to shopping around until they found a baker who refused to comply with their request, SO THAT they could sue for discrimination.


And the link to your last statement?


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

LauraJ66 said:


> The policy doesn't bother me. What bothers me is being told that by supporting our president, I support while supremacy. That could not be further from the truth. I will be closing my account with Ravelry immediately.


His White Supremacy is who he is and how he makes his policies. If you support him, it must be all those White Supremacy policies you like and therefore...


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Swiss Miss KT said:


> Cookiecat,
> 
> I agree whole heartedly with your statement! How can they allow the politics of the left on their site. I have been on their site for Knitting not for political reasons. Stop the insanity! This Administration has done more for all people then former administrations. There is no civility left in this country. God Bless America!


All rich white people, yes, I agree.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

meval said:


> I am restricted...for comments I made about it being wrong...they did not reply on how to close my account....they have to close it


Do you understand your violations?


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

kikikat said:


> I made a mistake coming back to KP. Why are you so angry and mean. I don't know you and you don't know me. I just stated my opinion


Um. She wasn't even replying to your input. She was addressing Merval.


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## valericz (Sep 10, 2013)

Freedom of speech is the "American way". I don't agree with any kind of political posts on Ravelry, but I'll be damned if I agree that it's ok to ban one type of political post and not others. It's pure censorship and it should not be tolerated anywhere at any time. THAT'S the American Way.


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## Starbuckxvi (Jan 25, 2019)

In the comments-
One person said they tried to join, but couldn't, another person says they have been inundated with requests to join, and another person says they have had to suspend adding new members for a couple of days.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/6/23/1866735/-The-Premier-Knitting-Fiber-Site-Joins-the-Resistance


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

p632 said:


> Again....for those who are confused.....being a Nationalist that is Caucasian is not the same as being a White Supremacist. A Nationalist supports ALL of the nation. White Supremacists believe, like Adolph Hitler, that only white people are worthy of living in the world. In Hitler's case, only white, blond, blue-eyed people were worthy of living.


Since you used the term Nationalist rather than White Nationalist, I offer this from Merriam-Webster: na·tion·al·ist
/ˈnaSH(ə)nələst/

noun

1. a person who strongly identifies with their own nation and vigorously supports its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

p632 said:


> So what would you call a person who believes in their nation? I call them a patriot and a nationalist. Can't help wondering what the US would be like if the election went the other way. Would there even be an USA, or would it be a "New World Order"?


I see you are new here today. Did you come here and jump right into this debate because you shut down your Ravelry account because they shut down your Nationalist views?


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Montana Gramma said:


> I guess I have only ever gone to the site for a definite pattern as I did not know they had opinion pages? Well I just get tired of opinions when I only want to create so will try and keep another site from making me be a super sleuth to over look and bypass all that to get to what I really want. Some days there is much to be said for being off the grid!


Ravelry has always had forums. If you haven't stepped in one of them yet, you are unlikely to. I go to Ravelry for pattern ideas, info etc. I've not looked at the forums. I've got my hands full with this one.


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## RobbiD (Nov 13, 2012)

pardoquilts said:


> Plus, their spices are excellent!


Yes they are :sm02:


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## p632 (Jun 24, 2019)

knovice knitter said:


> Since you used the term Nationalist rather than White Nationalist, I offer this from Merriam-Webster: na·tion·al·ist
> /ˈnaSH(ə)nələst/
> 
> noun
> ...


Is it wrong to expect OUR government to take care of its own citizens BEFORE taking care of the rest of the world? Nationalism, not white nationalism or white supremacy, is what I see going on here in the US under the current administration. There are plenty of people here that need the kind of help that foreign countries have received. Unfortunately, the rest of the world has come to depend on the US to get them out of their own predicaments.

Give the man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll never go hungry.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

p632 said:


> You picked the WRONG definition, here's the correct one:
> 
> Nationalism
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ...


The United States has been independent from England for 243 years. It is a global society and as third planet dwellers, we are interdependent. trump has alienated us from our allies (war all by ourselves, not a good idea), we are the only country who pulled from the Paris Accord, and our borders have been closed to Muslims and Central Americans which trump was forced to backpedal on. Nationalism is ill-advised selfishness that does not belong in modern society.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

cornslower said:


> deenashoemaker said:
> 
> 
> > Ravelry is picking and chosing what political affiliations it will be involved in. The only pattern I've ever paid for was FLKH. I'll miss browsing. Atleast here, I can use my ignore button.[/quoteThis Ravelry action just gets my Trump vote in 2020! I do not need ravelry!
> ...


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## RobbiD (Nov 13, 2012)

hilltopper said:


> Banning all political thought on a needlework-related site is one thing. Labeling someone a "white supremacist" is the equivalent of the Salem witch trials. America promises free speech. To deny that is anti-American. To alienate about half of your followers seems a poor business decision. Once again I feel it necessary to point out I am a life-long Democrat, but I know people who voted for Donald Trump and I am here to tell you they are hard-working and intelligent and law-abiding citizens with as many rights as any other citizen. Supporting stances like this is to take our country down a very dangerous path. It is more akin to fascism than to democracy. What will come next? Will their be support for the burning of books people do not agree with?


Why not, Trump has already set up his State News Organization (Fox, Breitbart, etc.) Can burning books be far behind? Trump only promises free speech if you support him. If you disagree with him, you are an enemy of the people. George Orwell was quite close in his prognostication, he was just a 30years off on his timing! It took us longer to become babbling idiots than he thought it would!


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> Since you used the term Nationalist rather than White Nationalist, I offer this from Merriam-Webster: na·tion·al·ist
> /ˈnaSH(ə)nələst/
> 
> noun
> ...


Yup, that's what my dictionary says, too, and it was printed before Trump came on the political scene.

EDIT: I should have said my "American Heritage" dictionary.....


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

2E said:


> They deleted mine already! This am I went on to print something in my library! A baby hat pattern which I have used in the past. So I know it was there!
> This am it was unavailable as were any and all of my others
> Where are we going? Or rather it would appear that we are already there
> Good riddance to Ravelry!
> Those of you who support it. Enjoy!


I just checked and everything I've saved/stored on Ravelry is still there. There isn't any reason why your stuff in your library wouldn't still be there. Perhaps you are simply spreading a non-truth or perhaps you don't know how to use Ravelry?


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## Aubreys gramma (Dec 26, 2014)

First of all, welcome p632. Secondly, I agree with you 100%. The President of the US should put the interests and people of the US first just as the leader of every other country should and usually does. It often appears that some in our society feel that the US is required to support the rest of the world and, oh by the way, forget it's own interests and citizens.

Somehow the definition of nationalism has changed over the years,. My Webster's New World dictionary defines it this way, "1 devotion to one's nation; patriotism 2 the advocacy of national independence". I believe that this is the definition that President Trump subscribes to and so do I.



p632 said:


> Is it wrong to expect OUR government to take care of its own citizens BEFORE taking care of the rest of the world? Nationalism, not white nationalism or white supremacy, is what I see going on here in the US under the current administration. There are plenty of people here that need the kind of help that foreign countries have received. Unfortunately, the rest of the world has come to depend on the US to get them out of their own predicaments.
> 
> Give the man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll never go hungry.


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

valericz said:


> Freedom of speech is the "American way". I don't agree with any kind of political posts on Ravelry, but I'll be damned if I agree that it's ok to ban one type of political post and not others. It's pure censorship and it should not be tolerated anywhere at any time. THAT'S the American Way.


Ravelry is an international site. And please do bone up on the 1st Amendment. Freedom of Speech does not apply to a privately owned site as the site can set it's rules for discourse/sales on it's site. In order to use the site - you have to abide by it's rules.


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## Arachne (Apr 15, 2013)

Damiano said:


> I don't care where we all stand politically. We ALL must tell Ravelry this is UNACCEPTABLE!!!
> 
> https://www.toddstarnes.com/politics/knitting-website-tells-trump-supporters-they-are-no-longer-welcome/


Ravelry is a private entity, totally understand the "It's my site, it's my rule(s)". BUT... Ravelry has been drifting towards censorship of ALL things that ruffle their admin's feathers (and it's NOT just politics) It started a few months ago with "Chris" the watchdog who approves all posts posted in certain forums...if "he" doesn't like it, it doesn't get posted, period. Sad, and I think it will eventually affect many of the designers that use Ravelry as a platform to sell their products. It's not too far out there of an observation to imagine that perhaps in the future Admin won't like a color of a finished project you've posted, or dog avatars because they might be scary, or your purchases are tracked and you're chastised for NOT buying from diverse sellers...y'all be careful for what you wish for.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Carolyn Mongeon said:


> Imagine that they are excluding liberals and see if your opinions are the same.


If they were excluding individuals, I can see how you would be miffed. They are simply excluding the verbal endorsement that contradicts their ethics. You are not excluded. Why is it all or nothing with so many of you? So often to the extreme end of what is actually being said.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Arachne said:


> Ravelry is a private entity, totally understand the "It's my site, it's my rule(s)". BUT... Ravelry has been drifting towards censorship of ALL things that ruffle their admin's feathers (and it's NOT just politics) It started a few months ago with "Chris" the watchdog who approves all posts posted in certain forums...if "he" doesn't like it, it doesn't get posted, period. Sad, and I think it will eventually affect many of the designers that use Ravelry as a platform to sell their products. It's not too far out there of an observation to imagine that perhaps in the future Admin won't like a color of a finished project you've posted, or dog avatars because they might be scary, or your purchases are tracked and you're chastised for NOT buying from diverse sellers...y'all be careful for what you wish for.


Why don't you start your own knitting forum. Seems that you fancy yourself an expert. Chris and Jessica are the owners of Ravelry. And yes it is their site- and they do make the rules and have done so for 12 years and grown their business into an international site boasting 8,000,000 members. 
What notable accomplishments can you boast of by the way?


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## collectordolls (Oct 27, 2013)

Granny41 said:


> Thank you Books. You read and understood the content of Jessica's statement. Too bad several others did not. They are not banning anyone. But discussion of Trump and his Administration by anyone (conservative or liberal) is verboten. Seems pretty fair to me too. I sent an email applauding their decision. Admin of KP might want to follow suit. Would make this forum a kinder, gentler place IMHO.


The only way this would be fair is if they do not allow any political discussions. Why are there political discussions on a craft site anyway. As far as KP following suit then it would just be a site for the liberal democrats so of course it would be a kinder gentler place. President Trump is not causing discord it is the socialist who are infiltrating our government.


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## collectordolls (Oct 27, 2013)

Aubreys gramma said:


> First of all, welcome p632. Secondly, I agree with you 100%. The President of the US should put the interests and people of the US first just as the leader of every other country should and usually does. It often appears that some in our society feel that the US is required to support the rest of the world and, oh by the way, forget it's own interests and citizens.
> 
> Somehow the definition of nationalism has changed over the years,. My Webster's New World dictionary defines it this way, "1 devotion to one's nation; patriotism 2 the advocacy of national independence". I believe that this is the definition that President Trump subscribes to and so do I.


That is very well said and I agree with you completely.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

whale watcher said:


> Like my grandson; (who is 18) said...."why can't there be straight month"?


For the same reason we don't have soup kitchens for the rich.


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## Starbuckxvi (Jan 25, 2019)

I would agree there is nothing wrong with Nationalism in service of it’s citizens, if the administration were actually interested in helping it’s citizens. But this administration has no interest in supporting social programs designed to help citizens. They seem to be interested in welfare for the rich white folks in the form of tax breaks for the very wealthy. But I have yet to see them do any real good for citizens of the US, while alienating the rest of the world. I believe, based on a preponderance of the evidence that his administration supports white supremicist values and the white supremicist agenda (tax reform and anti-immigration), and that they use the “Nationalist” aka “white nationalist” title in the way it is perceived and defined by a majority of people. They hide behind equating the term with patriotism. 
In answer to the title of this thread, the political division everywhere starts and ends with Trump. His campaign and election was so divisive. It polarized the American people like no other Presidential election has before. It is the job of every newly elected President to heal the nation split by the election process. In his acceptance speech, he did the opposite— basically saying, F-U to all that opposed him. He was saying himself, before anyone else did—He was not our (those that did not vote for him) President. HE did that.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Aubreys gramma said:


> First of all, welcome p632. Secondly, I agree with you 100%. The President of the US should put the interests and people of the US first just as the leader of every other country should and usually does. It often appears that some in our society feel that the US is required to support the rest of the world and, oh by the way, forget it's own interests and citizens.
> 
> Somehow the definition of nationalism has changed over the years,. My Webster's New World dictionary defines it this way, "1 devotion to one's nation; patriotism 2 the advocacy of national independence". I believe that this is the definition that President Trump subscribes to and so do I.


Unfortunately, the US's involvement in other countries' politics and affairs were solely for US's monetary (Iran oil) interests. Check to see how the US involvement has exacerbated the poverty and drug cartels in Central America. It's been tantamount to lighting a fuse and then running away. There are some responsibilities that the US must accept and honor.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/20/mapped-the-7-governments-the-u-s-has-overthrown/


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## colleenmay (Apr 5, 2012)

Kathie said:


> This is the way I understood it as well. Raverly isn't going to tolerate comments about trump from either side. That seems fair to me.


Except that is not what is happening. Read the comments that have ensued there. Lots and lots and lots of Trump bashing going on there. It is a blood bath. Disgusting. Hope they are happy. I used to LOVE Ravelry. I will be searching for another source. Read the site that Ravelry sends you to as their justification for their actions. It is a joke. Sorry people. I have more intelligence than that.


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## Aubreys gramma (Dec 26, 2014)

Actually I think the divisiveness really took hold when Hillary and the Dems refused to acknowledge the election of Donald Trump. They have stated in really big letters that he is not the legal president, he didn't win the popular vote. Since the law of our land says the election is won by the person with the most electoral college points, they have no argument. If they want to change that then they need an Constitutional Amendment. Donald Trump didn't start this fight but he won't back down either.



Starbuckxvi said:


> I would agree there is nothing wrong with Nationalism in service of it's citizens, if the administration were actually interested in helping it's citizens. But this administration has no interest in supporting social programs designed to help citizens. They seem to be interested in welfare for the rich white folks in the form of tax breaks for the very wealthy. But I have yet to see them do any real good for citizens of the US, while alienating the rest of the world. I believe, based on a preponderance of the evidence that his administration supports white supremicist values and the white supremicist agenda (tax reform and anti-immigration), and that they use the "Nationalist" aka "white nationalist" title in the way it is perceived and defined by a majority of people. They hide behind equating the term with patriotism.
> In answer to the title of this thread, the political division everywhere starts and ends with Trump. His campaign and election was so divisive. It polarized the American people like no other Presidential election has before. It is the job of every newly elected President to heal the nation split by the election process. In his acceptance speech, he did the opposite- basically saying, F-U to all that opposed him. He was saying himself, before anyone else did-He was not our (those that did not vote for him) President. HE did that.


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## bokemom (Mar 16, 2017)

The part of this that I find the most amazing about all of this is that some of the commenters here that are very upset are the same people I see defending a certain craft store and fast food restaurant. They feel those places have the right to support what ever things they want because they are private businesses. But now they have a problem with a private business supporting it's own belief. The one thing I will give Ravery is that they believe enough in their stand to say it in public to everyone.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Aubreys gramma said:


> Actually I think the divisiveness really took hold when Hillary and the Dems refused to acknowledge the election of Donald Trump. They have stated in really big letters that he is not the legal president, he didn't win the popular vote. Since the law of our land says the election is won by the person with the most electoral college points, they have no argument. If they want to change that then they need an Constitutional Amendment. Donald Trump didn't start this fight but he won't back down either.


If he had help from an illegal hostile foreign country and the Mueller report as much as said he tried to and said except for trump being the current sitting president, he would have been charged, then he is illegitimately in the White House.


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## farmlady (Apr 15, 2017)

Ok I know Chit-Chat is where you can discuss anything including political subjects so I decided to just subscribe to the Main which I understood was for knitting and crochet only to find that is where all this about Ravelry started. What happened? Guess all sections are now fair game.
No place to get away from it.


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## Aubreys gramma (Dec 26, 2014)

So the craft store and the fast food place aren't open on Sunday, how does that impact anything except their own bottom line?



bokemom said:


> The part of this that I find the most amazing about all of this is that some of the commenters here that are very upset are the same people I see defending a certain craft store and fast food restaurant. They feel those places have the right to support what ever things they want because they are private businesses. But now they have a problem with a private business supporting it's own belief. The one thing I will give Ravery is that they believe enough in their stand to say it in public to everyone.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

p632 said:


> Is it wrong to expect OUR government to take care of its own citizens BEFORE taking care of the rest of the world? Nationalism, not white nationalism or white supremacy, is what I see going on here in the US under the current administration. There are plenty of people here that need the kind of help that foreign countries have received. Unfortunately, the rest of the world has come to depend on the US to get them out of their own predicaments.
> 
> Give the man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll never go hungry.


It is wrong to spend gazillion of tax dollars on the military (not our personnel) and create a war to justify it. It is wrong to increase our national debt by trillions to give tax breaks to the billionaires and high-profit corporations. It is wrong to subsidize fossil fuels. If none of that was happening, we would have more than enough to help our own people and aid other countries. It's a matter of proper allocation.


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## blawler (Feb 20, 2012)

I agree!!! To my mind political opinions don't belong on Ravelry in the first place. Aloha... BEv


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## bokemom (Mar 16, 2017)

Aubreys gramma said:


> So the craft store and the fast food place aren't open on Sunday, how does that impact anything except their own bottom line?


That would be my exact point


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## Starbuckxvi (Jan 25, 2019)

I only know when it happened for me—when I felt alienated and not welcomed by this administration. When I began to see divisions among friends and acquaintances. For me, it was his acceptance speech letting me know in no uncertain terms he would not be representing me or my interests as a woman, immigrant, minority. During his campaign and since, he has spoken out and established policies that go against everything that defines who I am. So, yeah, I do take people’s support of his policies and rhetoric a little personally. 
I just want to say that I want to applaud all who have been posting in this thread today. I feel like it’s the most civil discussion I have seen on any social media sites. Not many have stooped to anger, or hate, dismissing opinions expressed or name-calling, etc. I usually abhor these on line discussions, but I have actually found this forum enlightening. It is hard to learn about other points of view when there is anger and attacking going on. I have a genuine interest in learning about other points of view. Thank you to those of you have respectfully joined in this discussion.


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

Aubreys gramma said:


> So the craft store and the fast food place aren't open on Sunday, how does that impact anything except their own bottom line?


That has nothing to do with why I won't spend my $$ at that particular craft store and fast food place.


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

colleenmay said:


> Except that is not what is happening. Read the comments that have ensued there. Lots and lots and lots of Trump bashing going on there. It is a blood bath. Disgusting. Hope they are happy. I used to LOVE Ravelry. I will be searching for another source. Read the site that Ravelry sends you to as their justification for their actions. It is a joke. Sorry people. I have more intelligence than that.


I have not seen a blood bath here. Histrionics does not become you, my dear.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

farmlady said:


> Ok I know Chit-Chat is where you can discuss anything including political subjects so I decided to just subscribe to the Main which I understood was for knitting and crochet only to find that is where all this about Ravelry started. What happened? Guess all sections are now fair game.
> No place to get away from it.


Someone made a mistake in placing this thread in Main. Only Adm. can move it. However, the title actually uses the word "political", so it is easily avoidable.


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## MaryCarter (Oct 17, 2011)

berigora said:


> Perhaps when trump supporters can convince Ravelry that he is not a white supremacist, they might reverse their decision. I'm not holding my breath.


My take on all this is that if the whole world were one colour then political leaders could close their borders if the threat of terrorism was real, or they were growing expotentially sick and tired of illegal immigrants, just walking in and demanding jobs and housing. In the case of America it seems that the people south of the border are upset that a blonde man wants to close it. If Obama had wanted to close it, the blondes would have been complaining. Sad but true. If America was all white, or all black, or all purple, that wall would have been built to stop entitled illegals/gangsters/and terrorists from just walking in. I blame multiculturalists for the carnage we see throughout the world today. Their beloved little melting pot is about to explode, and it won't be pretty. I don't hate anybody, but can see that multiculturalism has been a dismissal failure. New arrivals with their demands for a fair go, are getting jobs and housing over and above those already here. How is that fair? That is why the blonde got into power, because Obama did nothing about it. Nothing to do with white supremacy. The same is happening all over Europe, and Australasia. The blondes have had enough and are pushing back. It is really that simple......I think.


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## Aubreys gramma (Dec 26, 2014)

And isn't it nice that you aren't forced to. Isn't it nice that you have the freedom to choose where you shop and eat and spend your money!

Go America!



CorvallisKnitter said:


> That has nothing to do with why I won't spend my $$ at that particular craft store and fast food place.


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## Starbuckxvi (Jan 25, 2019)

This is exactly the kind of blame game that continues to divide us. I repeat, it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the newly elected PRESIDENT of ALL OF THE UNITED STATES to unite and heal the nation. He failed to do this and instead deepened the divide.


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

Aubreys gramma said:


> And isn't it nice that you aren't forced to. Isn't it nice that you have the freedom to choose where you shop and eat and spend your money!
> 
> Go America!


Nice deflection. Kinda silly too.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Aubreys gramma said:


> So the craft store and the fast food place aren't open on Sunday, how does that impact anything except their own bottom line?


Oh if it were only that. Hobby Lobby has stolen religious artifacts from the Middle East to put in their "Christian" museum. They either paid off the inspectors or slid by with their fake labels on the crates. They have been lobbying for religion in public schools in Oklahoma where they are from (the owners are the Greene family). They offered insurance to their female employees and got the Supreme Court to go along with their restricted birth control. That's when they managed to get corporations to have the same rights as people. They play gospel music in their stores over their p.a. system and stock no other holiday religious items such as Stars of David or Menorahs . They are a private company and made those choices. I made the choice to never step foot in their store or purchase anything from their on line store. I've boycotted them since the Supreme Court decision, but the stealing under the name of their so-called Christianity clinched the deal. As for Chic-fil-a, we don't have them here, but I would boycott them for their anti-gay stance. Why? Because it hurts my friends.


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## ellencombs (Dec 18, 2011)

Crocheting is my escape from all of the terrible things that are going on. Whatever happened to free speech? You are entitled to your opinion. But please, keep your prejudices off this happy website. Political discrimination is just as bad as all of the other types of discrimination. I’m disgusted.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

collectordolls said:


> The only way this would be fair is if they do not allow any political discussions. Why are there political discussions on a craft site anyway. As far as KP following suit then it would just be a site for the liberal democrats so of course it would be a kinder gentler place. President Trump is not causing discord it is the socialist who are infiltrating our government.


That is your opinion, I do not share it.


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## skkp (Feb 13, 2011)

collectordolls said:


> I agree. Just ban all political discussions it is a craft site. If someone posts a pattern that you do not agree with just don't make whatever it is. Everyone is entitled to their own ideas


But they did not ban all sides only one -- that my dear is called facism. You either believe, think speak as we say or you cease to exist one way or another.


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## klrober (Mar 20, 2013)

Beachgirl1000 said:


> I applaud this statement by Ravelry.


...me too....go Ravelry....


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## Aubreys gramma (Dec 26, 2014)

How right you are! Isn't it interesting how they don't see that. They can't seem to understand that this censorship is the first step to what, book burning, business trashing, people round up and perhaps real concentration camps. And sadly, it's not such a big jump!



skkp said:


> But they did not ban all sides only one -- that my dear is called facism. You either believe, think speak as we say or you cease to exist one way or another.


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## CBratt (Dec 6, 2012)

skkp said:


> But they did not ban all sides only one -- that my dear is called facism. You either believe, think speak as we say or you cease to exist one way or another.


They are banning white supremacy. What don't you get about that???


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

Starbuckxvi said:


> I repeat, it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the newly elected PRESIDENT of ALL OF THE UNITED STATES to unite and heal the nation.


 Dear Strabuckzvi, where did you get this information from? I ask because I do not find a responsibility to unite and heal.

My sources include...

1) The US Constitution, Article 2 defines the powers (duties, responsibilities) of a US President as follows: 
https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcript#toc-article-ii-

2) Presidential Oath of Office:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_office_of_the_President_of_the_United_States
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

3) University of Missouri at Kansas City (UMKC) provides an analysis and case studies (debates) on Presidential powers, over time: 
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/prespowers.html

4) Lumen online learning provides more discussion of Presidential powers, over time... inclding "implied powers": 
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/americangovernment/chapter/the-design-and-evolution-of-the-presidency/

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

Actually, this post should be under chit chat, not main!


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## luvnknittn (Jun 1, 2017)

What don’t YOU get that people are pissed off at being labeled white supremacy supporters just for being conservatives???


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## painthoss (Jul 10, 2012)

luvnknittn said:


> What don't YOU get that people are pissed off at being labeled white supremacy supporters just for being conservatives???


You're not. What don't you get about that? Wait, never mind.


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## luvnknittn (Jun 1, 2017)

Clever girl. You’re so very special


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## whale watcher (Aug 30, 2017)

knovice knitter said:


> The United States has been independent from England for 243 years. It is a global society and as third planet dwellers, we are interdependent. trump has alienated us from our allies (war all by ourselves, not a good idea), we are the only country who pulled from the Paris Accord, and our borders have been closed to Muslims and Central Americans which trump was forced to backpedal on. Nationalism is ill-advised selfishness that does not belong in modern society.


.


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## Fundogknit (Jul 22, 2015)

luvnknittn said:


> What don't YOU get that people are pissed off at being labeled white supremacy supporters just for being conservatives???


Nobody cares if you are conservative, we are pissed off you are supporting a knowing white nationalist, a rapist too.


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## Fundogknit (Jul 22, 2015)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Dear Strabuckzvi, where did you get this information from? I ask because I do not find a responsibility to unite and heal.
> 
> My sources include...
> 
> ...


What you posted is meaningless. A good leader brings us together, it doesn't need to be posted in the presidential job requirement. Trump is a anomaly.


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

skkp said:


> But they did not ban all sides only one -- that my dear is called facism. You either believe, think speak as we say or you cease to exist one way or another.


From reading their statement, what I got from it was (although they didn't express is precisely this way) that they were refusing to allow terrorists to use their website as a platform.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

CBratt said:


> They are banning white supremacy.


 Dear CBratt, some may disagree. 
Ravelry states succinctly that they are banning support for Trump : "We are banning support of Donald Trump and his administration on Ravelry." 
Later in their announcement they equate support of Trump with white supremacy when they state: "Support of the Trump administration is undeniably support for white supremacy."

I'm not sure that statement is true, as 
1) there are many African American, Black, Latinx citizens who voted for Trump, 
2) Trump's administration includes a mix of races and ethnicities.

Ravelry may have based their ban on an untrue premise.
Ravelry may have painted many citizens with a broad brush, essentially making unfounded allegations and accusations against individuals who are NOT white, NOT white supremacists, and have NEVER expressed such views.

Sharing different ideas, sources of information, and knowledge bases can done in a friendly manner.
Clarifications can be sought, and facts explored. 
Even "debate" and discussion of logical fallacies, or flaws in logic, can be done by focusing on facts... acknowledging opinions as viewpoints and not facts ... without insulting or ad hominem attacks.
People do not need to agree on everything, in order to find something in common (like fiber arts) and get along in a positive manner.

:sm11:
Happy knitting!


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## Arachne (Apr 15, 2013)

Granny41 said:


> Why don't you start your own knitting forum. Seems that you fancy yourself an expert. Chris and Jessica are the owners of Ravelry. And yes it is their site- and they do make the rules and have done so for 12 years and grown their business into an international site boasting 8,000,000 members.
> What notable accomplishments can you boast of by the way?


Nope, not an expert, I usually just sit back and observe things. Define "notable" accomplishments and when you do define it, look to yourself first before taunting others to provide theirs. My notables in life are mine to share at my own discretion, not yours.


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## Stephhy (May 14, 2012)

knitter828 said:


> RAVELRY has always had political forums. If don't like to mix politics and knitting it is easy enough to avoid those forums.


I agree, it's just that this one was posted in Main.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

Fundogknit said:


> What you posted is meaningless. A good leader brings us together, it doesn't need to be posted in the presidential job requirement. Trump is a anomaly.


 Dear Fundogknit, some may see a difference between:
1) there being a Presidential RESPONSIBILITY to do something (a fact: a legal requirement under the law) 
2) a citizen having an EXPECTATION for a President to do something (an opinion: to be seen as being a "good" leader).

The nation has had a "deep divide" under other Presidents, as well.

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## Sparkler24 (May 5, 2011)

AMEN!


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## dunnville89 (Apr 24, 2012)

hilltopper said:


> I am far more concerned with them deciding they can call him a White Supremacist when he has not declared himself to be one. We should not feel free to label other people with what we want to believe they are. That was already tried here in Salem, Massachusetts when females were labeled witches and were now expected to prove they were not. Whoever is making decisions at revelry can decide whom it is they choose to do business with. They do not get to charge American citizen with accusations they cannot prove.
> As far as hatred goes there has been plenty of it to go around. If you don't see any hatred coming from the left I suggest you have not been paying close attention. And I say that as a life-long Democrat with a political philosophy that is pretty well progressive - and has been since before I was old enough to vote.


So far you have had the most reasonable arguments. You have given a point of view without emotion based on your understanding of what free speech and democracy mean. The bottom line to me is a quote which has been much used, but defines free speech: "I may not agree with what you say, but I defend your right to say it". I also wish there could be a revival of civility and courtesy when people discuss - and this goes for all, not confined to one side of the argument. Our culture seems to have abandoned civil discourse.


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## drruth (Nov 9, 2012)

I'm sorry but this is still a free country with a constitution that guarantees our free speech. Not just some people's free speech but everyone's free speech! It is disgusting that a knitting site, of all places, would ban some people based on their political leanings. Most of us are on this site to share ideas and accomplishments, not to discuss politics. I hope there is a mass exodus from Ravelry. It sets one more dangerous precedent and if you aren't on the "wrong" side now, your turn is coming. This type of policy never stops with just one group.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

drruth said:


> I'm sorry but this is still a free country with a constitution that guarantees our free speech. Not just some people's free speech but everyone's free speech! It is disgusting that a knitting site, of all places, would ban some people based on their political leanings. Most of us are on this site to share ideas and accomplishments, not to discuss politics. I hope there is a mass exodus from Ravelry. It sets one more dangerous precedent and if you aren't on the "wrong" side now, your turn is coming. This type of policy never stops with just one group.


Once it's set for awhile, things settle down. There was a lot of hoopla when Pensey's spices took a stand on where their support would go, but it's all quiet now. The same is true for HobbyLobby and Chic-fa-lay.


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## luvnknittn (Jun 1, 2017)

Accusations based on???


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## Starbuckxvi (Jan 25, 2019)

It is not codified, it is a social norm like saying please and thank you.


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## Starbuckxvi (Jan 25, 2019)

It’s not codified. It’s what a good president does.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

Starbuckxvi said:


> It's not codified. It's what a good president does.


 Dear Starbuckxvi, I acknowledge you hold that opinion of what a "good" President does.
May I ask, is your opinion based on having kept track, over the years, of which US Presidents you observed as being able to unite and heal the nation on key issues... ? 
Would you share which Presidents, which issues...? 
In other words, in your opinion, which US Presidents were "good?"

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## Starbuckxvi (Jan 25, 2019)

I’ve seen a lot of acceptance speeches. Pretty much all of them talk about leading the country as a whole, trying to work for all Americans, etc. It’s what Presidents do to try to unite the parties after an election. This is something I learned in Middle school and high school civics classes. Taunting and jeering at the people who didn’t vote for you is not really considered uniting the country. 

As far as good presidents, In this regard all of them in comparison to Trump. That is just my opinion.


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## 18931924 (Feb 11, 2013)

well, I have just been through28 pages of what was supposed to be all about craft and what I saw I didn't read them, was an American site all about Trump and other rubbish, I am 95 and I want to read about craft not the rubbish that is on there now and mostly from Americans, I am an Australian and don't want to know about Trump, stick to the craft site. There was a lot of bitchiness in the bits I did read and was disgusted, keep it out of our craft site as I guess there are a lot of others like me who are not interested in all this rubbish and bitchiness. please get back to what this site is for- CRAFT, and you needn't bother telling me that I am yelling because I am. Be the grown women that you are supposed to be, act like ladies and talk like ladies please. Now tell us about your craft. I have been busy knitting for charity and am pleased with what I am doing, so get to work with your knitting and / crocheting hooks.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

kkaallard said:


> I've deleted my Ravelry account as well. I had been overlooking their support of the LGBTQ agenda, okay, it's Pride Month. I have a belief that this activity endangers one's soul. But their misguided belief that our president is a 'white supremacist' is just over the top! I agree that there is no place for political discussion on such a site. Pretty sure any suggestion to limit political discussion while Mr. Obama was president would have been met with cries of racism.
> 
> It's unfortunate, but as others have pointed out it's their right, just as it's mine to no longer support their platform.


I hope you never have anyone in your family to one day come and tell you they are gay. I would feel sorry for them to be related to you. They are human just like you are and deserve the same respect you receive because that is the way God made them.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

Starbuckxvi said:


> I've seen a lot of acceptance speeches. Pretty much all of them talk about leading the country as a whole, trying to work for all Americans, etc.


 Yes, Starbuckxvi, I agree. :sm11: I have a book with ALL of the acceptance speeches... interesting stuff, actually. Like art, each one reflects the context of the times. They fit together, like a puzzle.



Starbuckxvi said:


> Taunting and jeering at the people who didn't vote for you is not really considered uniting the country.


 I agree. I do not defend taunting and jeering, from anyone. And yet I see it on every side:

1) There is the famous "basket of deplorables" name-calling by Hillary Clinton. (Wikipedia states: In her 2017 book What Happened, Clinton said that her comments on the "basket of deporables" were a factor in her electoral loss.[42])

2) Another famous quote, "Elections have consequences. At the end of the day, I won." Analysis in this article includes: _the dangers of pursuing a governing agenda that excludes and alienates the opposition..._ "Our politics are dysfunctional, and something that I said earlier serves as a warning to us: and that is, societies don't work when political factions take maximalist positions. And the more diverse the country is, the less it can afford to take maximalist positions."

In addition to taunting and jeering, I see learning, too. The above statements seem to indicate things each person may have wished to tell their younger self... woulda, coulda, shoulda. Letting it go. Moving right along. Not defining people by their lesser moments.

There's something called a _fixed mindset_, which as its name implies, means things are stuck as they are.
Its opposite is a _growth mindset_ which involves stretching, taking risks, making mistakes, learning from them, changing, growing. Letting it go. 
To a great degree, this may only be possible in the USA where all citizens are equal in the eyes of the law. Fear need not rule the day.

As a matter of opinion, I may agree with you on many things.
I also believe it is important to be aware of what is fact and what is opinion, and to know what informs our views; when our knowledge base changes as we learn new things, we may change our minds and hold different viewpoints than before.

It may up to ordinary citizens to help unite and heal, by acknowledging differences and yet focusing on finding something in common (like fiber arts).

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## Abiding (Jun 15, 2014)

I just deleted my Ravelry account.


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## Sealcookie (Nov 11, 2015)

MY only question is why can anti trump and others remain?


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## Starbuckxvi (Jan 25, 2019)

You are right of course. For some beauty in this world visit Expressions Fiber Arts. I get a sense of peace just looking at the gorgeous hand dyed yarn paired perfectly with beautiful coordinated photos. Just makes you want to touch it, buy it, knit it. Lol. Like I need more yarn. I bought an Oopsie Surprise skein and received a beautiful hank of 100% mulberry silk in the most beautiful pastel colors with brief pops of brighter colors. Just loving knitting it up!


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## 18931924 (Feb 11, 2013)

I don't know who njg was refering to, but I also have a gay nephew.


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## Starbuckxvi (Jan 25, 2019)

I agree. Let’s unite in our love for fiber arts ❤


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## Lanadonna (Feb 4, 2014)

Beachgirl1000 said:


> I applaud this statement by Ravelry.


So do I !


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

whale watcher said:


> Like my grandson; (who is 18) said...."why can't there be straight month"?


Why, is he discriminated against for being straight?


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

Starbuckxvi said:


> ... Expressions Fiber Arts. I get a sense of peace just looking at the gorgeous hand dyed yarn paired perfectly with beautiful coordinated photos. Just makes you want to touch it, buy it, knit it... a beautiful hank of 100% mulberry silk in the most beautiful pastel colors with brief pops of brighter colors. Just loving knitting it up!


 Yes, Starbuckxvi, I want to touch it, and with it being silk, I want to smell it... doesn't silk have a wonderful fragrance?! 
Great photo, beautiful project!

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## Starbuckxvi (Jan 25, 2019)

Yes. Love it. THIS is what we come here for yeah? Hereâs some Malabrigo and Ella Ray I just bought. I couldnât resist. It was on sale! Lol ð


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

Starbuckxvi said:


> Yes. Love it. THIS is what we come here for yeah?


 Yes, interesting conversations on hobbies and pastimes. Nice yarn, I believe I got some Malabrigo from WEBS a while back. Looked online and am not seeing the exact color but the Azul Profundo looks close... knitted a pair of socks. I'd call them luxury socks... sitting, knitting socks!

Do you have a project planned for those beautiful shades of blue?

I am currently knitting a watermelon blanket in an easy-care acrylic by special request of a lovely, precocious little girl in the extended family. LOL, because she is a child I also purchased a fleece watermelon blanket online... one she can make tents with, cuddle a kitten with claws in, and generally play with and have fun with, while not worrying about wear and tear. So she'll get two blankets, and we'll see how it goes.

If you give a mouse a cookie...
:sm17:

Happy Knitting!


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## MaryE-B (May 11, 2012)

So ignore it on this forum.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

To answer those, like me, who wish such topics as this didn't appear in Main and keep wishing that Admin would move it elsewhere, a glance at the number of views explains all. Each view = at least one click, and each click = some fraction of a penny into the owner's coffers.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

cattdages said:


> I recall as a child being told to be careful of who I associated with as I would be judged by the company I kept. While I would not presume to say what Trump's personal beliefs are regarding persons of color, I can judge him by his associations and those whom he defends and counts among his supporters.


Consider the indictments of those he has hired and those he has had to fire and those who have just left the administration because they couldn't handle what was going on in the white house. He still has crooks in his cabinet now like Elaine Chao and Wilber Ross, Betsy DeVos is destroying public education, Alex Acosta, Secretary of Labor was Miami's top federal prosecutor who let Jeffrey Epstein off the hook. Epstein abused lots of underage girls and was also suspected of trafficking girls from overseas.

Epstein was facing being put away for the rest of his life but Acosta, a rising star in Republican circles let him plead guilty to two felony prostitution charges in state court and serve 13 months in county jail. It was "one of the most lenient deals for a serial child sex offender in history." Acosta gave 45's friend a good deal and now Acosta has a good job. Funny how that works out, isn't it?

There were rumors that people like Alan Dershowitz and Bill Clinton were good friends of Epstein. People expected 45 to bring up Bill Clinton During the 2016 campaign but he never did. He didn't because he was also a good friend and there were rumors that he had raped a young girl at Epstein's house so if he mentioned Clinton he would be digging his own grave although his followers don't seem to care what he does.

I believe 45 is a crook and that is the kind of people he gathers around him. I could go on because there is more.


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## Nanknit (Mar 2, 2013)

NJG said:


> Consider the indictments of those he has hired and those he has had to fire and those who have just left the administration because they couldn't handle what was going on in the white house. He still has crooks in his cabinet now like Elaine Chao and Wilber Ross, Betsy DeVos is destroying public education, Alex Acosta, Secretary of Labor was Miami's top federal prosecutor who let Jeffrey Epstein off the hook. Epstein abused lots of underage girls and was also suspected of trafficking girls from overseas.
> 
> Epstein was facing being put away for the rest of his life but Acosta, a rising star in Republican circles let him plead guilty to two felony prostitution charges in state court and serve 13 months in county jail. It was Ã¢ÂÂone of the most lenient deals for a serial child sex offender in history.Ã¢ÂÂ Acosta gave 45's friend a good deal and now Acosta has a good job. Funny how that works out, isn't it?
> 
> ...


Where there's smoke there's fire and there is definitely a lot of smoke surrounding Trump and his cohorts. It shocks me that people know of Trump's disgusting behaviours, past and present, but continue to turn a blind eye to it all. Jen.


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## knittingmermaid (Jun 24, 2018)

I agree with Grumpy Gramma. Politics and Religion are no place for a craft sight. Can't we have at least one safe zone??? It used to be sports was the safe zone - no more...now crafts are being hit. This is a ridiculous, childish image being portrait of our country. I just wish people would get a grip on themselves and respect others feelings. It is OK to disagree with a person and still be civil!!! The hate going around is making Satan very happy...


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

NJG said:


> Betsy DeVos is destroying public education


 Dear NJG, may I ask why you say Betsy DeVos is destroying public education?

It is my understanding that Common Core destroyed public education, by:
1) Establishing a national standard, which in some places was lower than previous state standards

... Then ushering in bevy of laws, policies, and practices to ensure the uniform implementation of Common Core, including:
2) Measuring success as closing achievement gaps and excellence gaps, to achieve "equal outcomes" among all pupils
3) Requiring extensive data collection on students and teachers
4) Using collected data to evaluate teachers based on giving grades which reflect "equal outcomes" among all pupils in their classes
5) Changing FERPA to allow "researchers" to access the collected student data for their own purposes, down to the identifiable student level
6) Making it difficult for parents/students to access and correct data stored about their children/themselves
7) Allowing collected data to be owned by Pearson and other international companies, where it is beyond control of US laws

There are many pieces to this puzzle.
One source of partial information about this is: https://www2.ed.gov/programs/slds/factsheet.html
You may notice the date on this factsheet is July 2009, and it briefly summarizes rules for funds distributed since fiscal year 2005.
So this particular piece has been in play for about a decade and half.
Prior to that, many initiatives were designed, set in place, and planned to converge... like setting up rows of dominoes... unseen, behind the scenes... unnoticed until the first domino is tapped and creates a swift chain reaction. Those wishing to stop the chain reaction may need to study what has been done and where it is leading, in an attempt to identify and remove a key piece.

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## gingjan (Jun 4, 2013)

I come on here as it is a knitting / crochet website. Please keep it as so.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Dear NJG, may I ask why you say Betsy DeVos is destroying public education? It is my understanding that Common Core destroyed public education, by:
> 1) Establishing a national standard, which in some places was lower than previous state standards
> 
> ... Then ushering in bevy of laws, policies, and practices to ensure the uniform implementation of Common Core, including:
> ...


She has a very definite conflict of interest.
https://educationvotes.nea.org/2019/03/22/devos/


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## knitter828 (Jun 24, 2019)

This isn’t a first amendment issue.


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Dear NJG, may I ask why you say Betsy DeVos is destroying public education? It is my understanding that Common Core destroyed public education, by:
> 1) Establishing a national standard, which in some places was lower than previous state standards
> 
> ... Then ushering in bevy of laws, policies, and practices to ensure the uniform implementation of Common Core, including:
> ...


Trump appointed Betsy DeVos specifically to dismantle the department of education and eliminate all public schools in the US.

A lot of the other people he's appointed have been chosen to specifically dismantle and destroy a particular part of the government.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

knittingmermaid said:


> It is OK to disagree with a person and still be civil!!!


 Well said, knittingmermaid!

:sm11: 
Happy knitting!


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

knitter828 said:


> This isn't a first amendment issue.


Amen!!


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## RobbiD (Nov 13, 2012)

hilltopper said:


> I am far more concerned with them deciding they can call him a White Supremacist when he has not declared himself to be one. We should not feel free to label other people with what we want to believe they are.


His actions, his words, the people he associates with, the people he panders to, and the people he has chosen to act on his behalf make it extremely apparent.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

IndigoSpinner said:


> Trump appointed Betsy DeVos specifically to dismantle the department of education and eliminate all public schools in the US.


 Dear IndigoSpinner, This is very interesting to me.

It is my understanding that dismantling the Department of Education is intended to dial back the extensive data collection and other aspects of nationalized education, returning control to local States and communities... in keeping with the US Constitution, which did not grant powers to the Federal Government to oversee, manage, direct, or control public education. The 10th Amendment to the US Constitution states: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

There are many pieces to this puzzle. The bi-partisan creation of the robust Department of Education, its various policies and practices, has been underway for years. It may be a bit like untangling a yarn barf.

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


----------



## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

RookieRetiree said:


> She has a very definite conflict of interest.
> https://educationvotes.nea.org/2019/03/22/devos/


 Dear Rookie Retiree, this is very interesting to me.

Thank you for sharing the link to the NEA article. It is my understanding that the National Education Association (NEA) is the largest labor union and professional interest group in the United States.

The article itself is not neutral, but uses biased language such as "schemes" when there is an action or viewpoint which it does not endorse.
Nevertheless, I found it to be well worth reading.

It is possible that rather than DeVos having a conflict of interest, per se:
1) Her assigned task of de-nationalizing public education and returning control to States and communities may be in conflict with the aims of the largest labor union and professional interest group in the US.
2) She has a background in how some schools may run under localized control without being nationalized systems.

This is not to defend Betsy DeVos. 
I am seeking to clarify and understand why some believe the aim is to destroy public education, as mentioned by NJG.

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


----------



## RobbiD (Nov 13, 2012)

Aubreys gramma said:


> How right you are! Isn't it interesting how they don't see that. They can't seem to understand that this censorship is the first step to what, book burning, business trashing, people round up and perhaps real concentration camps. And sadly, it's not such a big jump!


Isn't it interesting how you don't see it happening right before your very eyes, and started by your very own "Fearless Leader"? If a news article comes out that does not sing Trump's praises, it is labeled fake news. and the purveyors are the "Enemy of the People". If a video is shown that shows the idiot contradicting himself, he says it has been "tampered with", while he endorses videos his administration has been proven to have doctored, sources he does not agree with are liars, he is always saying that businesses he does not like are "failing" even when they are growing. He announced the rounding up of people who have been productive members of their communities because he says they are here illegally, even if they have already become citizens (focusing on those of Hispanic descent). Children are being separated from their parents and herded into cages that are unsafe and unsanitary-the only thing he hasn't done yet is use them for forced labor! And that doesn't even touch the laws he has broken and continues to break since he was elected.
You yourself said, "They can't seem to understand that this censorship is the first step to what, book burning, business trashing, people round up and perhaps real concentration camps. And sadly, it's not such a big jump!" It is not a big jump because you are already there. But because it is _your_ side doing it, it is not happening, right? Please take an honest look in the mirror, and an honest look around you. 'There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know'.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

RobbiD said:


> Isn't it interesting how you don't see it happening right before your very eyes, and started by your very own "Fearless Leader"? If a news article comes out that does not sing Trump's praises, it is labeled fake news. and the purveyors are the "Enemy of the People". If a video is shown that shows the idiot contradicting himself, he says it has been "tampered with", while he endorses videos his administration has been proven to have doctored, sources he does not agree with are liars, he is always saying that businesses he does not like are "failing" even when they are growing. He announced the rounding up of people who have been productive members of their communities because he says they are here illegally, even if they have already become citizens (focusing on those of Hispanic descent). Children are being separated from their parents and herded into cages that are unsafe and unsanitary-the only thing he hasn't done yet is use them for forced labor! And that doesn't even touch the laws he has broken and continues to break since he was elected.
> You yourself said, "They can't seem to understand that this censorship is the first step to what, book burning, business trashing, people round up and perhaps real concentration camps. And sadly, it's not such a big jump!" It is not a big jump because you are already there. But because it is _your_ side doing it, it is not happening, right? Please take an honest look in the mirror, and an honest look around you. 'There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know'.


I agree with you completely. On the subject of censorship attached is just one of dozens of Trump threats to cancel media licenses due to criticism of his policies---https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-updates-trump-tweets-network-news-partisan-htmlstory.html


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## LilgirlCA (Jan 22, 2011)

Read Ravelry's actual statement
https://www.ravelry.com/content/no-trump

this is not an issue unless you enjoy reading their forums or are looking for Hate patterns


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

RobbiD said:


> Children are being separated from their parents and herded into cages that are unsafe and unsanitary...


 Dear RobbiD, I am NOT defending the detainment conditions, just sharing the fact that this occurred under the Obama administration as well. 
(https://qz.com/1291470/photos-immigrant-children-detained-at-the-placement-center-in-2014/)

Illegal immigration is a bi-partisan issue.

It is my understanding that the detainment circumstances are evidence of: 
1) Not enough funding for humanitarian conditions
2) The number of people attempting to enter the US illegally is overwhelming the system
3) A crisis at the Mexico-US border (https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/683623555/president-obama-also-faced-a-crisis-at-the-southern-border, 
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/us/obama-seeks-billions-for-children-immigration-crisis.html)
4) Immigration reform is needed

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

LilgirlCA said:


> Read Ravelry's actual statement
> https://www.ravelry.com/content/no-trump
> 
> this is not an issue unless you enjoy reading their forums or are looking for Hate patterns


 Dear LilgirlCA, It is my understanding that a designer was banned whose patterns and charted designs consisted of a collection of colorwork hats:
1) In God We Trust
2) God Is Love
3) Choose Life
4) * USA *
5) #WalkAway
6) Build The Wall
7) PRO LIFE PRO USA PRO TRUMP
8) TRUMP 2020
9) Keep America Great

While people may agree or disagree with the messages, they are not "Hate patterns."

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## knittingmaven123 (Feb 6, 2019)

Starbuckxvi said:


> I only know when it happened for me-when I felt alienated and not welcomed by this administration. When I began to see divisions among friends and acquaintances. For me, it was his acceptance speech letting me know in no uncertain terms he would not be representing me or my interests as a woman, immigrant, minority. During his campaign and since, he has spoken out and established policies that go against everything that defines who I am. So, yeah, I do take people's support of his policies and rhetoric a little personally.
> I just want to say that I want to applaud all who have been posting in this thread today. I feel like it's the most civil discussion I have seen on any social media sites. Not many have stooped to anger, or hate, dismissing opinions expressed or name-calling, etc. I usually abhor these on line discussions, but I have actually found this forum enlightening. It is hard to learn about other points of view when there is anger and attacking going on. I have a genuine interest in learning about other points of view. Thank you to those of you have respectfully joined in this discussion.


Thanks for your post. I did not vote for Trump but decided to respect the Presidentcy - His acceptance speech made that impossible for me and the following tweets and speeches just made me realize that he would never change. In my opinion he is narcissistic and doesn't want to learn how to govern.
It breaks my heart when I see children torn away from their parents. I am a Holocaust survivor and was hidden with a Catholic family in Antwerp during WW II Most of my family perished. Taking children away from their parents, putting immigrants in cages is surely not what America is all about. I am a naturalized citizen and love this country. I just don't like the divisiveness of the people. Trump has done nothing to unite this wonderful country. 
Just my 2 cents.
Happy Knitting!
Betty G.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Dear LilgirlCA, It is my understanding that a designer was banned whose patterns and charted designs consisted of a collection of colorwork hats:
> 1) In God We Trust
> 2) God Is Love
> 3) Choose Life
> ...


From all indications, it wasn't the patterns that got her banned, but her comments that LGBTG community had "perverted" the rainbow which was seen as a homophobic dogwhistle. That's in keeping with their policy.


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## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

knittingmaven123 said:


> I am a Holocaust survivor and was hidden with a Catholic family in Antwerp during WW II Most of my family perished.


I'm sorry for what you had to go through in WWII, and what you lost. I had a friend whose parents were also hidden by a family in Holland. I firmly believe that the Jewish are God's chosen people.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

RookieRetiree said:


> From all indications, it wasn't the patterns that got her banned, but her comments that LGBTG community had "perverted" the rainbow which was seen as a homophobic dogwhistle. That's in keeping with their policy.


Have her patterns been deleted from Ravelry?


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## RobbiD (Nov 13, 2012)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Dear RobbiD, I am NOT defending the detainment conditions, just sharing the fact that this occurred under the Obama administration as well.
> (https://qz.com/1291470/photos-immigrant-children-detained-at-the-placement-center-in-2014/)
> 
> Illegal immigration is a bi-partisan issue.
> ...


It happened under Bush and Obama, and probably previous administrations as well. But the Obama administration handled it quite differently:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/06/23/trump-falsely-says-obama-started-family-separation/1540733001/
"The Obama administration sought to keep families together in detention, but a court ruling held that those children could not be held more than 20 days. So, officials began to release entire families, except in cases where custody could not be established or the parent was being prosecuted for another crime, such as drug smuggling, according to PolitiFact.

They evidently at least kept records of which child belonged to which adult. They didn't deport the parents and keep the children. And kept the detentions to the "no more than 20 days" determined by the courts


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

Susie2016 said:


> I'm sorry for what you had to go through in WWII, and what you lost. I had a friend whose parents were also hidden by a family in Holland. I firmly believe that the Jewish are God's chosen people.


Per the bible - we are all created in the image of God, therefore, it would be logical to believe we are all the "chosen people".


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Have her patterns been deleted from Ravelry?


I haven't been curious enough to check.


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## RobbiD (Nov 13, 2012)

CorvallisKnitter said:


> Per the bible - we are all created in the image of God, therefore, it would be logical to believe we are all the "chosen people".


 :sm24: I agree.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

CorvallisKnitter said:


> Per the bible - we are all created in the image of God, therefore, it would be logical to believe we are all the "chosen people".


That's what I believe, but I respect every faith's interpretation. We are made in his image.


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

RookieRetiree said:


> Thatâs what I believe, but I respect every faithâs interpretation. We are made in his image.


I'm agnostic. I have no idea if there is a higher power. But I do believe in logic.


----------



## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Stephhy said:


> I agree, it's just that this one was posted in Main.


And the title is clear...easy to walk on by.


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

knovice knitter said:


> And the title is clear...easy to walk on by.


Now I've got the song in my head . . . Dionne Warwick - Walk On By


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Sealcookie said:


> MY only question is why can anti trump and others remain?


Because we don't support White Supremacy.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Have her patterns been deleted from Ravelry?


That person has is a member of KP as May 16th. Sending you a PM

ETA
Done


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> Because we don't support White Supremacy.


They can, just aren't allowed to remain if they behave in a white supremest manner. I guess some can't bring themselves to abide by those rules so are clutching their pearls and stomping off.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

knittingmaven123 said:


> Taking children away from their parents, putting immigrants in cages is surely not what America is all about.


Dear knittingmaven123, I am not defending the detainment conditions, just sharing the fact that this occurred in 2014, under the Obama administration, as well.
(https://qz.com/1291470/photos-immigrant-children-detained-at-the-placement-center-in-2014/)

Illegal immigration is a bi-partisan issue.

It is my understanding that the detainment circumstances are evidence of:
1) Not enough funding for humanitarian conditions
2) The number of people attempting to enter the US illegally is overwhelming the system
3) A crisis at the Mexico-US border (https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/683623555/president-obama-also-faced-a-crisis-at-the-southern-border,
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/us/obama-seeks-billions-for-children-immigration-crisis.html)
4) Immigration reform is needed

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


----------



## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

RookieRetiree said:


> From all indications, it wasn't the patterns that got her banned, but her comments that LGBTG community had "perverted" the rainbow which was seen as a homophobic dogwhistle. That's in keeping with their policy.


 Dear Rookie Retiree, thank you for sharing that information. 
While some may disagree with the designer's sentiment, it does not seem to match the ravelry announcement banning "White Supremacists" as this is not an issue of race or ethnicity?

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


----------



## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Dear Rookie Retiree, thank you for sharing that information.
> While some may disagree with the designer's sentiment, it does not seem to match the ravelry announcement banning "White Supremacists" as this is not an issue of race or ethnicity?
> 
> :sm11:
> Happy Knitting!


I've gotten the sense that white supremacy is anti gay too so maybe it's an all inclusive term in their eyes.


----------



## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

RobbiD said:


> It happened under Bush and Obama, and probably previous administrations as well. But the Obama administration handled it quite differently:
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/06/23/trump-falsely-says-obama-started-family-separation/1540733001/
> "The Obama administration sought to keep families together in detention, but a court ruling held that those children could not be held more than 20 days. So, officials began to release entire families, except in cases where custody could not be established or the parent was being prosecuted for another crime, such as drug smuggling, according to PolitiFact.
> 
> They evidently at least kept records of which child belonged to which adult. They didn't deport the parents and keep the children. And kept the detentions to the "no more than 20 days" determined by the courts


 Dear RobbiD, thank you for that information. I read the article you shared, and also this article which was linked there: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/immigration/2014/06/18/arizona-immigrant-children-holding-area-tour/10780449/
Other links from 2014 may also be of interest.
Candace Owens shared her tour of an ICE detention facility on September 7, 2018:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1038093065343229952
When we see these sources, different facts and opinions may be noticed, others may be filtered out. Continued dialog about the sources and filtering of information may help build a complete picture, leading to defining, prioritizing, and solving complex issues contributing to the problem of illegal immigration. For example, it is my understanding that there are many more illegal border crossings now than in previous years.

There are many pieces to this puzzle. The bi-partisan issue of illegal immigration, with its various policies and practices, has been underway for years. It may be a bit like untangling a yarn barf.

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


----------



## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

CorvallisKnitter said:


> Per the bible - we are all created in the image of God, therefore, it would be logical to believe we are all the "chosen people".


Yes but Israel is particularly treasured by God:

Deuteronomy 14:2
for you are a people holy to the Lord your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the Lord has chosen you to be his treasured possession


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

RookieRetiree said:


> They can, just aren't allowed to remain if they behave in a white supremest manner. I guess some can't bring themselves to abide by those rules so are clutching their pearls and *stomping off*.


If what I've heard - Ravelry being swamped by requests to join - is true, they won't even be missed.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Susie2016 said:


> Yes but Israel is particularly treasured by God:
> 
> Deuteronomy 14:2
> for you are a people holy to the Lord your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the Lord has chosen you to be his treasured possession


Remember that a Jewish person was probably the scribe.


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

RookieRetiree said:


> I've gotten the sense that white supremacy is anti gay too so maybe it's an all inclusive term in their eyes.


Basically anti anything that is not white, Christian, (Protestants over Catholics) and straight. Oh, and white males are superior to females.

Here's some interesting reads on white supremacist's/nationalists policies/beliefs

http://www.metro.us/news/the-big-stories/white-nationalists-who-are-they-and-what-do-they-want

http://www.stanfordlawreview.org/online/white-nationalism-as-immigration-policy/


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> If what I've heard - Ravelry being swamped by requests to join - is true, they won't even be missed.


I came up with a potential number of .0050% of lost members.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

RookieRetiree said:


> I came up with a potential number of .0050% of lost members.


Risible number! :sm23:


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## RobbiD (Nov 13, 2012)

RookieRetiree said:


> Remember that a Jewish person was probably the scribe.


Maybe, maybe not. Many versions of the Bible were translated from Greek and Latin versions. Even if the "original" was in Hebrew, the translators would have to make necessary "best guesses" when there were original phrases or words with no exact meaning in the language being translated into. Not to mention oft repeated stories are known to change as they are repeated. Ever play a game of "telephone"?


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Risible number! :sm23:


Sure is.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

RookieRetiree said:


> Sure is.


Check out this link. Page upon page of new Users!https://www.ravelry.com/people/search#sort=joined&view=thumbs&page=1


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Granny41 said:


> Check out this link. Page upon page of new Users!https://www.ravelry.com/people/search#sort=joined&view=thumbs&page=1


39 pages x 30 per page = 1,170 from Sunday to now.


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

RookieRetiree said:


> 39 pages x 30 per page = 1,170 from Sunday to now.


Wow - even more than the last time I checked, and I know their servers have slowed due to the traffic on their site.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

RookieRetiree said:


> I've gotten the sense that white supremacy is anti gay too so maybe it's an all inclusive term in their eyes.


 Dear RookieRetiree, thank you for that information. 
If "White Supremacy" is not about race, ethnicity, skin color, that may explain why several members have mentioned LGBTQ issues on this thread??!

May we discuss the statement which you mentioned was found to be offensive?


RookieRetiree said:


> LGBTG community had "perverted" the rainbow


In looking at definitions online, perverted can mean: "_(of a thing) having been *distorted from its original meaning*_."
The original meaning of the rainbow was a sign of God's covenant with Noah, after the great flood.
Appropriation of the rainbow was discussed on KP in June 2016, and possibly other times as well: 
https://www.knittingparadise.com/t-410382-6.html#9264129

If the LGBTQ community is changing the meaning of the rainbow, some may say they are appropriating it, others may express it differently.
The use of "perverted" may have been an unfortunate word choice since a different meaning of "pervert" (as seen in online definitions, long list of synonyms) is: "_unnatural, deviant, warped, corrupt, twisted, abnormal, unhealthy, depraved, perverse, aberrant, immoral, corrupted, debauched, debased, degenerate, sadistic, evil, wicked, vile, amoral, rotten, wrong, bad; informal - sick, kinky, pervy, sicko _ and words on this list might sound like an insult or judgement.

That having been said, it would seem that anyone taking offense might articulate their concern and request a simple change in wording.

Because several members have mentioned LGBTQ issues on this thread, I will share that the 2nd Amendment does protect freedom of religion. Many religions have sacred texts which give guidance on what is right/wrong, moral/immoral, acceptable/unacceptable. The Bill of Rights guarantees that citizens can practice their religion. This would include studying sacred texts (for example, the bible). Some people may be unaware that bible has many verses about sexuality. Topics include virginity, marriage, procreation, fetus, fidelity, re-marriage after death of a spouse. Also lust, promiscuity, rape, prostitution, sodomy, cross-dressing, incest, infidelity, divorce. The overall message of salvation history is a mixture of Satan's temptations, human weakness, God's love, wrath, and forgiveness. Some people may be offended by some verses. Some may overlook or de-emphasize certain verses and emphasize others. Some may dismiss or discount certain verses as being relevant only to that historical culture and time period, but irrelevant today. But for many people, exercising their Constitutional right to live their faith and practice their religion will include sharing their knowledge of their sacred text(s) as they go on about the activities of their daily life.

If an organization requires individuals to temporarily set aside a Constitutional right in order to gain access, possibly that is best posted clearly and proactively. 
For example, some places post: No guns allowed. 
Forums might post: No religious discussion allowed. No political discussion (free speech) allowed.
Rather than: No support for our nation's President or administration allowed.

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


----------



## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

RookieRetiree said:


> 39 pages x 30 per page = 1,170 from Sunday to now.


And allow for the fact that they were closed down for new member registration for awhile yesterday!


----------



## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

CorvallisKnitter said:


> Basically anti anything that is not white, Christian, (Protestants over Catholics) and straight. Oh, and white males are superior to females.
> 
> Here's some interesting reads on white supremacist's/nationalists policies/beliefs
> 
> ...


 Dear Corvallis Knitter, 
Thank you for these links.

The information does not seem to mesh with ravelry's annoucement? 
Ravelry equated support of Trump with white supremacy when they state:"Support of the Trump administration is undeniably support for white supremacy."

I'm not sure that statement is true, as
1) there are many African American, Black, Latinx citizens who voted for Trump,
2) Trump's administration includes a mix of races and ethnicities, 
3) People of many religious beliefs must have voted for Trump; he could not have won with just a Christian (preferably Protestant) vote.
Citizens who voted for Trump are not a monolith; they are of diverse backgrounds, knowledge bases, viewpoints.

Ravelry may have based their ban on an untrue premise.
Ravelry may have painted many citizens with a broad brush, essentially making unfounded allegations and accusations against individuals who are NOT white, NOT white supremacists, and have NEVER expressed such views.

For your consideration, as a counter-point to the links you shared, I offer the following information about the history of the KKK, Jim Crow laws, etc:
https://www.theacru.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/ACRU-the-truth-about-jim-crow_v2.pdf

:sm11:
Happy knitting!


----------



## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

quatrefoilknits said:


> In looking at definitions online, perverted can mean: "_(of a thing) having been *distorted from its original meaning*_."
> The original meaning of the rainbow was a sign of God's covenant with Noah, after the great flood.
> Appropriation of the rainbow was discussed on KP in June 2016, and possibly other times as well:
> https://www.knittingparadise.com/t-410382-6.html#9264129
> ...


I think the term white supremacy, white nationalism, and even nationalism have had their meanings co-opted to mean "against anything that's not heterosexual white male.

https://thewellesleynews.com/2018/05/02/trump-supporters-fear-loss-of-white-supremacy-not-economic-security/

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/24/us/politics/trump-economic-anxiety.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/24/opinion/america-white-extinction.html

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/toni-morrison-fear-of-losing-white-privilege-led-to-trumps-election_n_58330ee2e4b058ce7aac0964

There are many more out there.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

RookieRetiree said:


> ...their meanings co-opted...


 Dear RookieRetiree, 
Thank you for the links. I find the information at those links to be disgusting.
It seems that if a person doesn't like or agree with another, this is a handy negative term to apply to them, as the meaning is as malleable as one wants it to be.

Yes, *co-opted* may be the operative word. :sm22:
Coincidentally, the online definition of co-opt is a near match to the online definition "pervert": _divert to or use in a role different from the usual or original one._

Again, this paints diverse individuals with a broad brush, labeling them with allegations and accusations in a manner which seems intended to set them up to be summarily discredited and dismissed.

For your consideration, as a counter-point to the links you shared, I offer the following information about the history of the KKK, Jim Crow laws, etc:
https://www.theacru.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/ACRU-the-truth-about-jim-crow_v2.pdf

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


----------



## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Dear RookieRetiree, yes, *co-opted* may be the operative word. :sm22:
> Coincidentally, the online definition of co-opt is a near match to the online definition "pervert": _divert to or use in a role different from the usual or original one._
> 
> Again, this paints diverse individuals with a broad brush, labeling them with allegations and accusations in a manner which seems intended to set them up to be summarily discredited and dismissed.
> ...


When other conversations revealed that it was the word "perverted" that was deemed as anti-gay dog whistle fr a pattern on a Ravelry, I looked up other words and thought co-opted would have been a better choice of words and suggested so.

I also wonder if breast cancer survivors have perverted or co-opted the color pink? Better than Pepto-Bismol or Barbie having it all to themselves.


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## Fundogknit (Jul 22, 2015)

Damiano said:


> I don't care where we all stand politically. We ALL must tell Ravelry this is UNACCEPTABLE!!!
> 
> https://www.toddstarnes.com/politics/knitting-website-tells-trump-supporters-they-are-no-longer-welcome/


I like Ravelry even better now????


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

RookieRetiree said:


> When other conversations revealed that it was the word "perverted" that was deemed as anti-gay dog whistle fr a pattern on a Ravelry, I looked up other words and thought co-opted would have been a better choice of words and suggested so.


 Dear RookieRetiree, I think this was wise and kind of you to make this suggestion. :sm11:



RookieRetiree said:


> I also wonder if breast cancer survivors have perverted or co-opted the color pink? Better than Pepto-Bismol or Barbie having it all to themselves.


 LOL, I imagine most people in the US culture would think of the traditional "*pink is for girls*" and therefore seems to cover breast cancer support already.*

*_ Yes, I am aware that biological males may also occasionally have breast cancer. 
And there are undoubtedly gender-identity issues which I did not include in my sentence._

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

I applaud Ravelry! #45 is a white supremacist, no doubt about that. That is what Ravelry is protesting. Good on Ravelry!


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Granny41 said:


> Check out this link. Page upon page of new Users!https://www.ravelry.com/people/search#sort=joined&view=thumbs&page=1


. :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24:


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

Sewbizgirl said:


> This site is just as bad, re: political polarization! I have always hated Ravelry (which is currently flying the gay rainbow flag). I was banned from their site back in the early days of Obama, for voicing my opinions IN A CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL GROUP they allowed. I haven't missed all the hate, bullying and division one bit. I started hanging out here instead, but then left several years ago. Now, coming back, I see it's just like Ravelry in politics.
> 
> Can't we get away from all the political bashing and name calling, not to mention disinformation, on a CRAFT SITE, for crying out loud? Neither politics nor religion should be allowed either here or on Ravelry. Just seeing some of the thread titles makes my blood pressure go up. I don't need it.


Pray tell, why do you open anything that clearly is marked POLITICAL?? Oh, does Ravelry having the gay pride week flag on their site bother you also? It must or you would not have even mentioned it. So, you just open these posts to whine and complain? Normally the political posts have been in Chit Chat. Chit Chat is plainly marked as Non-knitting talk. Based upon the fact that the last political post a couple of days ago had 39 pages, you do appear to be outnumbered.


----------



## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

NJG said:


> Consider the indictments of those he has hired and those he has had to fire and those who have just left the administration because they couldn't handle what was going on in the white house. He still has crooks in his cabinet now like Elaine Chao and Wilber Ross, Betsy DeVos is destroying public education, Alex Acosta, Secretary of Labor was Miami's top federal prosecutor who let Jeffrey Epstein off the hook. Epstein abused lots of underage girls and was also suspected of trafficking girls from overseas.
> 
> Epstein was facing being put away for the rest of his life but Acosta, a rising star in Republican circles let him plead guilty to two felony prostitution charges in state court and serve 13 months in county jail. It was "one of the most lenient deals for a serial child sex offender in history." Acosta gave 45's friend a good deal and now Acosta has a good job. Funny how that works out, isn't it?
> 
> ...


Amen! I agree with you!


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

paljoey46 said:


> Except they are not banning any mention of Trump: https://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/not-for-trump-fans-hat. Just banning, apparently, any support for Trump.
> 
> Sadly, this and other companies don't realize that they are upsetting probably half of their customer base. There has been a U.S. Politics discussion thread on Ravelry for a long time. It is open to anyone with something to say. Yes, it is currently mostly against Trump. Don't want to hear or read it? Don't, it's that simple. But to ban everything about Trump except what you apparently agree with is hypocritical.


#1. Since this policy went into effect, which was Sunday, there have been 1,170 new members join! Therefore, instead of them losing their customer base, they are expanding it significantly. Plus, Ravelry has over 8,500 members, from all around the world.

#2. Yes, it is against Trump - because of his very evident white supremacist attitude.

#3. As for Ravelry being hypocritical (in your opinion) it is their business and they can do what they want to.


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## TheHiker (Mar 24, 2015)

Hurrah for Ravelery!! We need more businesses willing to take a stand for decency at the possible cost of followers (see Penzy Spices brave stand!). We all do not have to march in step BUT we must always show kindness in our thoughts and lives.


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

Grandmaknitz said:


> I'm with you Grumpy! I DO NOT give a rat's patootie about anyone's politics or religious beliefs on this site or Ravelry. I just want to see knitting and crochet.


And yet, here you are, you opened this post and even posted on it.


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## cah (Oct 2, 2014)

raindancer said:


> *Ravelry has over 8,500 members, from all around the world. *


You need more zeros. Ravelry has over 8.5 million registered users!


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

YarnStalker said:


> No, it doesn't.
> Those who voice their opinions even in the opposite will be flagged. It's serious.
> 
> Now, they also need to seek out the bullies who are making derogatory comments about some others and making up lies in some of the forums about others including designers who have had serious issues in their lives including life threatening illnesses. There's a group who claims that those who are fighting cancer are just making up the whole story for publicity.
> ...


Sadly, I can relate to your last paragraph quite well. No, you never, ever get over it. Mine was in 1955, and I am not over it. I agree that I too cannot understand how any woman can support #45.


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

kittykatzmom said:


> They are cutting their own throat.


Nah, they have had (as of this morning), 1,170 new members since they announced this decision on Sunday. So, just the opposite is happening!


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

valericz said:


> Thank you so much for posting this. I have written to the administrators of Ravelry and have deleted my account. Imagine them calling supporters of our President (therefore, supporters of our COUNTRY) WHITE SUPREMACISTS?? That is one of THE most ignorant things I've heard. Aside from the general hate they are showing, don't they realize that not every supporter of President Trump is "white"??? Ignorance at its finest... Unfortunately for Ravelry, they are the ones who are intolerant and are spewing hate. Unbelievable!!


Funny, but the most ignorant thing I have heard is that you - sadly, think that a person has to support the president to support the country. NO! NO! NO!

If the German people had supported their country by speaking out against what Hitler was doing to their country, Germany, and the poor Jews who were sent to the gas chamber might have had a different ending. I for one will never support a person in politics that has been proven to be a crook many times over con man, someone who made fun of a disabled reporter, tell how you can grab women by their privates when you're rich, consort with porn stars, pay them off, lie about it, on and on and on. Oh yes, and have an affair with one woman while your wife is in another room in the hotel. I love my country. I will not now, not ever support anyone who takes the word of Putin, or Kim Jong Un over the words of this country's advisers.


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

jmanthe said:


> I agree, just leave the politics out of sites like this, we all have our opinons, so leave them somewhere else. This site is about Knitting and Crochet,. I don't care to hear or what your side of view on politics is.


Yet, here you are. You opened this post, even posted on it. And here you are, giving your own opinion about leaving politics out of sites like this. And then you say you do not care to hear what anyone else has to say about politics. Typical.


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

colleenmay said:


> So you cannot post on Ravelry in support of Trump but you can post all you want showing hate for Trump??????? If you read their statement carefully, this is true. They have lost many customers on this day.


You really have that backwards. Since Sunday, (as of this morning) they have had 1,170 NEW members sign up. Guess it's true, Trump supporters are in the minority, especially since Ravelry has 8,500 members from all over the world.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

raindancer said:


> You really have that backwards. Since Sunday, (as of this morning) they have had 1,170 NEW members sign up. Guess it's true, Trump supporters are in the minority, especially since Ravelry has 8,500 members from all over the world.


8,500,000 please!


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## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

raindancer said:


> Since Sunday, (as of this morning) they have had 1,170 NEW members sign up. Guess it's true, Trump supporters are in the minority, especially since Ravelry has 8,500 members from all over the world.


The reason people are signing up to be new members is that they read about this thing in the news/Facebook, etc---and they want to see what the hoopla is all about. It has nothing to do with them loving Ravelry.


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

Sanibean said:


> And, yet, they still post patterns for those stupid pink hats and Obama patterns. What started all this? A lady simply posted her pattern for a cowl that said "Make American Great Again". Trump 2020.


How do you know what started this? #45 was not even capable of thinking up his own campaign slogan. He had to use President Ronald Reagan's campaign's slogan!


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## painthoss (Jul 10, 2012)

Susie2016 said:


> The reason people are signing up to be new members is that they read about this thing in the news/Facebook, etc---and they want to see what the hoopla is all about. It has nothing to do with them loving Ravelry.


You're big on others being attention seekers. You're most definitely one.


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## Bobglory (Jul 30, 2012)

raindancer said:


> You really have that backwards. Since Sunday, (as of this morning) they have had 1,170 NEW members sign up. Guess it's true, Trump supporters are in the minority, especially since Ravelry has 8,500 members from all over the world.


Believe it or not, that is just a normal day at Ravelry.

I did a quick check. They display the last 100,000 who joined. The furthest date back is April 7. I wanted to get a whole day so I started with April 8. There were 43 pages of members joining that day. So, at 30 per page, there were 1,290 new members joining on April 8. I also looked at May 11. Once again 43 pages of joining members.

With 100,000 showing divided by the number of days showing, there is an average of 1,250 new members a day joining Ravelry.

I have no stake in this. I am just keeping it real.


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

whale watcher said:


> Like my grandson; (who is 18) said...."why can't there be straight month"?


Oh brother. You and your son begrudge the gay pride month? I could tell your son that perhaps you have every other month, how about that?


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

Stellanator said:


> YES THAT'S WHAT I WANT - OPINION ON A CRAFT SITE


Please do not use all caps. In computer etiquette, it means you are yelling. A word now and then, is not so bad.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Susie2016 said:


> The reason people are signing up to be new members is that they read about this thing in the news/Facebook, etc---and they want to see what the hoopla is all about. It has nothing to do with them loving Ravelry.


You're clairvoyant now?

Check in a month.


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

luvnknittn said:


> I would like to know where Ravely gets off associating Trump supporters with being White Supremacy supporters. Oh wait, I forgot...liberals are in lockstep with their supreme leaders, therefore not allowed to think for themselves. (See what I did there?) I'm still waiting for the reams of proof other than what the biased media spew out that Trump is a racist and millions of conservatives are as well. And that doesn't mean the vicious memes that some liberals love to post as proof. My point is, it's wrong to automatically accuse conservatives of being racists, just like it's wrong to accuse all liberals of being brain-dead robots. With sites like Facebook and Twitter allowing and enjoying the political vitriol, why do we have to put up with this political crap on knitting sites, where we go to get inspiration for making beautiful things for ourselves and others? Too bad we can't vote about what's allowed on Ravely and KP, because I'd definitely vote for no politics at all!
> Okay, I'm done, enjoy your day ????


I really get a kick out of you people who say they do not like politics on KP. But my dear, you opened a Political post, and then, you even posted on it, lol! But now, you want to have them eliminated. Bwa ha ha!


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

Bobglory said:


> Believe it or not, that is just a normal day at Ravelry.
> 
> I did a quick check. They display the last 100,000 who joined. The furthest date back is April 7. I wanted to get a whole day so I started with April 8. There were 43 pages of members joining that day. So, at 30 per page, there were 1,290 new members joining on April 8. I also looked at May 11. Once again 43 pages of joining members.
> 
> ...


So the very worst case would be a loss of an average of around 400 a day for the next few days (until the smoke clears) and then it is back to normal.


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

Aubreys gramma said:


> And what is wrong with being a Nationalist? Donald Trump is the President of the USA. he believes in America first. He represents American citizens. Actually that is his job. That is why he was elected. That is what he meant when he said he was a Nationalist. Don't construe what the Times added in the article to what President Trump said.


He believes in American citizens as long as they are not Hispanic, Black, Muslim, or from "sh*t hole" countries. When he was whining about the immigrants, he said "Why can't we get immigrants from Norway?"


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

Aubreys gramma said:


> I do know about the Nazis. I also know about censorship and book burnings and rounding up people who have a different belief. What I don't know is how is that different than the censorship of today.


Governments play by different rules my dear. A private business can do what they want. Even here in the USA, #45 plays by totally different rules than any other president. Talk about censorship! Any news that does not portray him in the best light, he calls "fake news"! He has tried to get some newspapers shut down!


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

CBratt said:


> At least they can look in the mirror and sleep peacefully knowing they stood up for their principles. They most likely would ban support for Hitler too, or Mussolini, or any other person who openly supported white supremacy. I wager there are many people who died regretting not standing up against Hitler and his crew of cronies. We are headed in the very same direction with Mr. trump. I hope more and more sites do this. It is so refreshing.


 :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24:


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

Byrney said:


> Don't forget calling journalists the enemy of the people.


 :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24:


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

Granny41 said:


> God forbid that a man who has NO knowledge of history be elected President of The United States of America. Further, God forbid that the people who made the onerous mistake of electing him continue to support him thereby becoming his enablers!


 :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24:


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Granny41 said:


> So the very worst case would be a loss of an average of around 400 a day for the next few days (until the smoke clears) and then it is back to normal.


Those numbers are consistent. Thanks for doing that.


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## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

painthoss said:


> You're big on others being attention seekers. You're most definitely one.


LOL


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

knovice knitter said:


> You don't consider banning Muslims from entering our country supremacist? You don't consider his treatment of all the "brown" asylum seekers from Central America supremacist? You don't consider saying the White Supremacists in Charlottesville are fine people supremacist? If not, you don't know the meaning of the word.


 :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24:


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

knovice knitter said:


> Good grief and that is her 'go-to' source. I couldn't even read the whole article as my stomach was churning.


I know, I could not read it all either! What a clown this Todd Starnes is!


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

valericz said:


> Freedom of speech is the "American way". I don't agree with any kind of political posts on Ravelry, but I'll be damned if I agree that it's ok to ban one type of political post and not others. It's pure censorship and it should not be tolerated anywhere at any time. THAT'S the American Way.


Oh, really? Try and have a different opinion than #45. He has tried to get certain newspapers shut down because he did not like what was said about him. You have freedom of speech. You just can't post it on ravelry. Ravelry is privately owned, they can do what they want.


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

knovice knitter said:


> Since you used the term Nationalist rather than White Nationalist, I offer this from Merriam-Webster: na·tion·al·ist
> /ˈnaSH(ə)nələst/
> 
> noun
> ...


Right on! And we do know that #45 puts Putin and Kim Jong Un ahead of what his advisers say. To the detriment of the USA, he loves to buddy buddy around with dictators.


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

RobbiD said:


> Why not, Trump has already set up his State News Organization (Fox, Breitbart, etc.) Can burning books be far behind? Trump only promises free speech if you support him. If you disagree with him, you are an enemy of the people. George Orwell was quite close in his prognostication, he was just a 30years off on his timing! It took us longer to become babbling idiots than he thought it would!


 :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24:


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

Arachne said:


> Ravelry is a private entity, totally understand the "It's my site, it's my rule(s)". BUT... Ravelry has been drifting towards censorship of ALL things that ruffle their admin's feathers (and it's NOT just politics) It started a few months ago with "Chris" the watchdog who approves all posts posted in certain forums...if "he" doesn't like it, it doesn't get posted, period. Sad, and I think it will eventually affect many of the designers that use Ravelry as a platform to sell their products. It's not too far out there of an observation to imagine that perhaps in the future Admin won't like a color of a finished project you've posted, or dog avatars because they might be scary, or your purchases are tracked and you're chastised for NOT buying from diverse sellers...y'all be careful for what you wish for.


Paranoid much?


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

Aubreys gramma said:


> Actually I think the divisiveness really took hold when Hillary and the Dems refused to acknowledge the election of Donald Trump. They have stated in really big letters that he is not the legal president, he didn't win the popular vote. Since the law of our land says the election is won by the person with the most electoral college points, they have no argument. If they want to change that then they need an Constitutional Amendment. Donald Trump didn't start this fight but he won't back down either.


You are a real hoot!

:sm16: :sm16: :sm16: :sm16: :sm16:


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

bokemom said:


> The part of this that I find the most amazing about all of this is that some of the commenters here that are very upset are the same people I see defending a certain craft store and fast food restaurant. They feel those places have the right to support what ever things they want because they are private businesses. But now they have a problem with a private business supporting it's own belief. The one thing I will give Ravery is that they believe enough in their stand to say it in public to everyone.


 :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24:


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

MaryCarter said:


> My take on all this is that if the whole world were one colour then political leaders could close their borders if the threat of terrorism was real, or they were growing expotentially sick and tired of illegal immigrants, just walking in and demanding jobs and housing. In the case of America it seems that the people south of the border are upset that a blonde man wants to close it. If Obama had wanted to close it, the blondes would have been complaining. Sad but true. If America was all white, or all black, or all purple, that wall would have been built to stop entitled illegals/gangsters/and terrorists from just walking in. I blame multiculturalists for the carnage we see throughout the world today. Their beloved little melting pot is about to explode, and it won't be pretty. I don't hate anybody, but can see that multiculturalism has been a dismissal failure. New arrivals with their demands for a fair go, are getting jobs and housing over and above those already here. How is that fair? That is why the blonde got into power, because Obama did nothing about it. Nothing to do with white supremacy. The same is happening all over Europe, and Australasia. The blondes have had enough and are pushing back. It is really that simple......I think.


You seem to have been listening to #45. Yes, there are immigrants trying to get in to America. If you could for one minute try to feel some empathy for these families who leave their 3rd world country, due to all the fighting and problems in their homeland, and come here trying to become citizens. These are not terrorists or gangsters. They do not come here and "demand" anything! Where in the world do you get your info?

It really does not sound to me like you have any empathy to offer anyone. You just sit in your glass house and make judgments. And by the way, he is not blonde! He is Orange!


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

Starbuckxvi said:


> This is exactly the kind of blame game that continues to divide us. I repeat, it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the newly elected PRESIDENT of ALL OF THE UNITED STATES to unite and heal the nation. He failed to do this and instead deepened the divide.


 :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24:


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

knovice knitter said:


> Oh if it were only that. Hobby Lobby has stolen religious artifacts from the Middle East to put in their "Christian" museum. They either paid off the inspectors or slid by with their fake labels on the crates. They have been lobbying for religion in public schools in Oklahoma where they are from (the owners are the Greene family). They offered insurance to their female employees and got the Supreme Court to go along with their restricted birth control. That's when they managed to get corporations to have the same rights as people. They play gospel music in their stores over their p.a. system and stock no other holiday religious items such as Stars of David or Menorahs . They are a private company and made those choices. I made the choice to never step foot in their store or purchase anything from their on line store. I've boycotted them since the Supreme Court decision, but the stealing under the name of their so-called Christianity clinched the deal. As for Chic-fil-a, we don't have them here, but I would boycott them for their anti-gay stance. Why? Because it hurts my friends.


That is exactly why I do not shop at Hobby Lobby or Chic-fil-A. Thank you for this post Knovice Knitter!


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

ellencombs said:


> Crocheting is my escape from all of the terrible things that are going on. Whatever happened to free speech? You are entitled to your opinion. But please, keep your prejudices off this happy website. Political discrimination is just as bad as all of the other types of discrimination. I'm disgusted.


Sorry, you do not get to tell us what we can talk about here. You opened this post, knowing it was political.


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

CBratt said:


> They are banning white supremacy. What don't you get about that???


I know, right???


----------



## whale watcher (Aug 30, 2017)

Starbuckxvi said:


> I've seen a lot of acceptance speeches. Pretty much all of them talk about leading the country as a whole, trying to work for all Americans, etc. It's what Presidents do to try to unite the parties after an election. This is something I learned in Middle school and high school civics classes. Taunting and jeering at the people who didn't vote for you is not really considered uniting the country.
> 
> As far as good presidents, In this regard all of them in comparison to Trump. That is just my opinion.


Where in here is the taunting and jeering? Please help me find it (I am serious)

As Prepared for Delivery -

Chief Justice Roberts, President Carter, President Clinton, President Bush, President Obama, fellow Americans, and people of the world: thank you.

We, the citizens of America, are now joined in a great national effort to rebuild our country and to restore its promise for all of our people.
Together, we will determine the course of America and the world for years to come.
We will face challenges. We will confront hardships. But we will get the job done.
Every four years, we gather on these steps to carry out the orderly and peaceful transfer of power, and we are grateful to President Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama for their gracious aid throughout this transition. They have been magnificent.

Today's ceremony, however, has very special meaning. Because today we are not merely transferring power from one Administration to another, or from one party to another - but we are transferring power from Washington, D.C. and giving it back to you, the American People.
For too long, a small group in our nation's Capital has reaped the rewards of government while the people have borne the cost.
Washington flourished - but the people did not share in its wealth.
Politicians prospered - but the jobs left, and the factories closed.
The establishment protected itself, but not the citizens of our country.
Their victories have not been your victories; their triumphs have not been your triumphs; and while they celebrated in our nation's Capital, there was little to celebrate for struggling families all across our land.

That all changes - starting right here, and right now, because this moment is your moment: it belongs to you.
It belongs to everyone gathered here today and everyone watching all across America.
This is your day. This is your celebration.
And this, the United States of America, is your country.
What truly matters is not which party controls our government, but whether our government is controlled by the people.
January 20th 2017, will be remembered as the day the people became the rulers of this nation again.
The forgotten men and women of our country will be forgotten no longer.
Everyone is listening to you now.
You came by the tens of millions to become part of a historic movement the likes of which the world has never seen before.
At the center of this movement is a crucial conviction: that a nation exists to serve its citizens.
Americans want great schools for their children, safe neighborhoods for their families, and good jobs for themselves.
These are the just and reasonable demands of a righteous public.
But for too many of our citizens, a different reality exists: Mothers and children trapped in poverty in our inner cities; rusted-out factories scattered like tombstones across the landscape of our nation; an education system, flush with cash, but which leaves our young and beautiful students deprived of knowledge; and the crime and gangs and drugs that have stolen too many lives and robbed our country of so much unrealized potential.
This American carnage stops right here and stops right now.
We are one nation - and their pain is our pain. Their dreams are our dreams; and their success will be our success. We share one heart, one home, and one glorious destiny.
The oath of office I take today is an oath of allegiance to all Americans.
For many decades, we've enriched foreign industry at the expense of American industry;
Subsidized the armies of other countries while allowing for the very sad depletion of our military;
We've defended other nation's borders while refusing to defend our own;
And spent trillions of dollars overseas while America's infrastructure has fallen into disrepair and decay.
We've made other countries rich while the wealth, strength, and confidence of our country has disappeared over the horizon.
One by one, the factories shuttered and left our shores, with not even a thought about the millions upon millions of American workers left behind.
The wealth of our middle class has been ripped from their homes and then redistributed across the entire world.
But that is the past. And now we are looking only to the future.
We assembled here today are issuing a new decree to be heard in every city, in every foreign capital, and in every hall of power.
From this day forward, a new vision will govern our land.
From this moment on, it's going to be America First.
Every decision on trade, on taxes, on immigration, on foreign affairs, will be made to benefit American workers and American families.
We must protect our borders from the ravages of other countries making our products, stealing our companies, and destroying our jobs. Protection will lead to great prosperity and strength.
I will fight for you with every breath in my body - and I will never, ever let you down.
America will start winning again, winning like never before.
We will bring back our jobs. We will bring back our borders. We will bring back our wealth. And we will bring back our dreams.
We will build new roads, and highways, and bridges, and airports, and tunnels, and railways all across our wonderful nation.
We will get our people off of welfare and back to work - rebuilding our country with American hands and American labor.
We will follow two simple rules: Buy American and Hire American.
We will seek friendship and goodwill with the nations of the world - but we do so with the understanding that it is the right of all nations to put their own interests first.
We do not seek to impose our way of life on anyone, but rather to let it shine as an example for everyone to follow.
We will reinforce old alliances and form new ones - and unite the civilized world against Radical Islamic Terrorism, which we will eradicate completely from the face of the Earth.
At the bedrock of our politics will be a total allegiance to the United States of America, and through our loyalty to our country, we will rediscover our loyalty to each other.
When you open your heart to patriotism, there is no room for prejudice.
The Bible tells us, "how good and pleasant it is when God's people live together in unity."
We must speak our minds openly, debate our disagreements honestly, but always pursue solidarity.
When America is united, America is totally unstoppable.
There should be no fear - we are protected, and we will always be protected.
We will be protected by the great men and women of our military and law enforcement and, most importantly, we are protected by God.
Finally, we must think big and dream even bigger.
In America, we understand that a nation is only living as long as it is striving.
We will no longer accept politicians who are all talk and no action - constantly complaining but never doing anything about it.
The time for empty talk is over.
Now arrives the hour of action.
Do not let anyone tell you it cannot be done. No challenge can match the heart and fight and spirit of America.
We will not fail. Our country will thrive and prosper again.
We stand at the birth of a new millennium, ready to unlock the mysteries of space, to free the Earth from the miseries of disease, and to harness the energies, industries and technologies of tomorrow.
A new national pride will stir our souls, lift our sights, and heal our divisions.
It is time to remember that old wisdom our soldiers will never forget: that whether we are black or brown or white, we all bleed the same red blood of patriots, we all enjoy the same glorious freedoms, and we all salute the same great American Flag.

And whether a child is born in the urban sprawl of Detroit or the windswept plains of Nebraska, they look up at the same night sky, they fill their heart with the same dreams, and they are infused with the breath of life by the same almighty Creator.
So to all Americans, in every city near and far, small and large, from mountain to mountain, and from ocean to ocean, hear these words:
You will never be ignored again.
Your voice, your hopes, and your dreams, will define our American destiny. And your courage and goodness and love will forever guide us along the way.
Together, We Will Make America Strong Again.
We Will Make America Wealthy Again.
We Will Make America Proud Again.
We Will Make America Safe Again.
And, Yes, Together, We Will Make America Great Again. Thank you, God Bless You, And God Bless America.


----------



## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Dear Strabuckzvi, where did you get this information from? I ask because I do not find a responsibility to unite and heal.
> 
> My sources include...
> 
> ...


I am only going to answer regarding #2. He is NOT defending the Constitution! Nor is he protecting it! Anybody can say words. It is actions that I see. Or lack thereof. He does not seem to understand the Constitution even a little bit. He certainly has shown that lately. He meets with the Russians in the oval office, with no translator, no cameras from the USA. He believes the dictators like Kim Jong Un and Putin rather than his own advisers. That is not putting American interests first! Plus, he is the one who invited Russia to find Hillary's emails. So they did, and they helped elect him.


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

luvnknittn said:


> Accusations based on???


Please use the "quote" feature so that it is understood to whom you are replying. Thank you.


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

NJG said:


> I hope you never have anyone in your family to one day come and tell you they are gay. I would feel sorry for them to be related to you. They are human just like you are and deserve the same respect you receive because that is the way God made them.


 :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24: :sm24:


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

Abiding said:


> I just deleted my Ravelry account.


So, are you saying you are a white supremacist? That is what this is all about.

This announcement was made public on Sunday. This morning I looked to see what the numbers were on Ravelry. I discovered that there were 1,170 new members! Evidently a lot of people are against white supremacy. In just 2 days, so many new members.


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

Starbuckxvi said:


> Yes. Love it. THIS is what we come here for yeah? Hereâs some Malabrigo and Ella Ray I just bought. I couldnât resist. It was on sale! Lol ð


Yummy yarn!
:sm24: :sm24: :sm24:


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

knittingmaven123 said:


> Thanks for your post. I did not vote for Trump but decided to respect the Presidentcy - His acceptance speech made that impossible for me and the following tweets and speeches just made me realize that he would never change. In my opinion he is narcissistic and doesn't want to learn how to govern.
> It breaks my heart when I see children torn away from their parents. I am a Holocaust survivor and was hidden with a Catholic family in Antwerp during WW II Most of my family perished. Taking children away from their parents, putting immigrants in cages is surely not what America is all about. I am a naturalized citizen and love this country. I just don't like the divisiveness of the people. Trump has done nothing to unite this wonderful country.
> Just my 2 cents.
> Happy Knitting!
> Betty G.


I am so very glad that you were hidden and you survived! I am old enough to remember Hitler. We used to go to the movies once or twice a week in the 40's as we then lived in Los Angeles, and the theatre was only a couple blocks away. The news reels told of the tragedy, I would cry. I grew a special dislike and mistrust of Hitler immediately. How could this happen in Germany? That is why I will never support #45. He is a Hitler wantabe. I will stand up against any dictatorship. Happy knitting to you too!


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

cah said:


> You need more zeros. Ravelry has over 8.5 million registered users!


Oh my gosh, I sure did make a boo boo there, thanks for pointing that out!


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Dear NJG, may I ask why you say Betsy DeVos is destroying public education?
> 
> It is my understanding that Common Core destroyed public education, by:
> 1) Establishing a national standard, which in some places was lower than previous state standards
> ...


Her main goal along with her boss has been since day 1 to get rid of anything connected to President Obama. 45 wants to destroy President Obama's legacy and if our children are hurt in the process, well that is just too bad. That's the way the ball bounces. There is much more than what is listed here but I have spent enough time on this. The majority of the people did not want her but 45 never pays attention to what the people want, only what he wants. She wants to privatize everything, give vouchers for kids to go to private schools and taxpayer money to pay for it which means less money left for public schools. But then this is the Republican way privatize privatize privatize. They will do it to social security if we let them and God only knows what else. Anything that someone can make some money off of like prisons or these children at the border. Who is making money off of holding them?

1. She took this position with no history in education, never a teacher.
2. She could not address fundamental questions about the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act during her confirmation. 3. She barely won confirmation. Despite 1.1 million letters and 80,000 phone calls from NEA supporters urging senators to vote no, the U.S. Senate confirms DeVos. Vice President Mike Pence casts the deciding vote which was the first time in the nation's history a vice president's vote was necessary to approve a cabinet nominee. 
4. DeVos supports the rollback of protections for trans students. As one of her first acts, she encouraged 45 to retract protections that allow transgender students to use bathrooms that correspond with their gender identity.
5. DeVos supports 45's budget proposal to slash 13.5% for the Department of Education which comes to 9 billion {3.9 Billion to Pell Grants which many students rely on} in cuts to education. He just borrowed $1Trillion to pay for another year of his tax cuts for the rich but yet has no problem cutting 9 billion from education for our kids and DeVos supports this. :sm25: 
6. DeVos repealed the federal protections that hold predatory for-profit colleges accountable. 
7. DeVos rescinds sexual assault guidelines. The National Women's Law Center says DeVos' approach "signals a green light to sweep sexual assault further under the rug."
8. The DeVos-led Education Department attempts to strip its employees of collective bargaining rights.
9. She has claimed but failed to justify that students may be better served by being in larger classes. Her proposal includes a 26% reduction in state grants for special education and millions of dollars in cuts for students who are blind.


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

Granny41 said:


> 8,500,000 please!


Yes! If I could find my darned post, I would add that to it, but I have not found it yet. Thanks for letting me know!


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

raindancer said:


> You really have that backwards. Since Sunday, (as of this morning) they have had 1,170 NEW members sign up. Guess it's true, Trump supporters are in the minority, especially since Ravelry has 8.5 million members from all over the world.


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

Sorry, double post!


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Susie2016 said:


> The reason people are signing up to be new members is that they read about this thing in the news/Facebook, etc---and they want to see what the hoopla is all about. It has nothing to do with them loving Ravelry.


It has a lot to do with supporting Ravelry for calling out trump for what he is. Love Ravelry? If they did they would already be members. After this announcement, they do, indeed, love Ravelry for what they are standing up for.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> It has a lot to do with supporting Ravelry for calling out trump for what he is. Love Ravelry? If they did they would already be members. After this announcement, they do, indeed, love Ravelry for what they are standing up for.


We - members of KP - know about Ravelry, though many get lost trying to navigate it. There are a humongous number of yarny folk who haven't ever gone online looking for anything yarny; they are the ones who never heard of it and will hopefully now swell Ravelry's membership. It would be nice were they all to contribute to it from now on, but that's just a wish, unlikely to be fulfilled.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

raindancer said:


> He believes in American citizens as long as they are not Hispanic, Black, Muslim, or from "sh*t hole" countries. When he was whining about the immigrants, he said "Why can't we get immigrants from Norway?"


Correct, he really believes in white nationalists but he doesn't have the guts to say it.


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## Phillygirl1807 (Nov 26, 2011)

There are "Obama Knitting Groups" on Ravelry. There are also anti-Trump patterns available there to download. Politics should not be shoved down our throats - but Ravelry still allows one side of the political spectrum to have a voice, and to submit political patterns. How is that "inclusive?" Knitting is an escape for me from nasty politics. Now even a knitting website has taken a political stand against conservative knitters. I deleted my membership today.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

raindancer said:


> You seem to have been listening to #45. Yes, there are immigrants trying to get in to America. If you could for one minute try to feel some empathy for these families who leave their 3rd world country, due to all the fighting and problems in their homeland, and come here trying to become citizens. These are not terrorists or gangsters. They do not come here and "demand" anything! Where in the world do you get your info?
> 
> It really does not sound to me like you have any empathy to offer anyone. You just sit in your glass house and make judgments. And by the way, he is not blonde! He is Orange!


The pictures of a Salvadorian man and his 23 month old daughter who drowned attempting to reach the US brought this old woman to tears this morning. Donald Trump--where is your humanity?
https://people.com/politics/wrenching-photo-father-daughter-drown-river-dangers-migrants-face/


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## Altice (Oct 22, 2016)

nitnana said:


> Is this any different than banning certain persons from doing business in my bakery, florist, etc.? Just thinkin' out loud here!Hmmmmm!! :sm07:


Yes it is. Your bakery is a Public Accommodation. Look that up. Online sites are not.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

nitnana said:


> Is this any different than banning certain persons from doing business in my bakery, florist, etc.? Just thinkin' out loud here!Hmmmmm!! :sm07:


 Dear nitnana, 
I believe there may be important differences.

Colorado cake baker was exercising a Constitutional right: freedom of religion, acting according to religious beliefs.
Supreme Court decision here (59 page PDF): https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-111_new_d1of.pdf

Ravelry's censorship and bans do not appear to be the exercise of a Constitutional right. 
Meanwhile, several posts have indicated that at least one designer was banned by ravelry for her faith-based description of her "God Is Love" hat pattern, 
to which some people took offense.
In this circumstance, the designer was exercising a Constitutional right: freedom of religion, acting according to religious beliefs.

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

Granny41 said:


> The pictures of a Salvadorian man and his 23 month old daughter who drowned attempting to reach the US brought this old woman to tears this morning. Donald Trump--where is your humanity?
> https://people.com/politics/wrenching-photo-father-daughter-drown-river-dangers-migrants-face/


 Dear Granny41, 
God bless their souls.
Unfortunately, they took a big risk, made a poor choice.
This is not necessarily a reflection on the President, or any American.
But may be a reflection on the conditions in other countries which cause their citizens to flee.
The US gives large amounts of international aid each year, which those governments unfortunately may not use to help their people.

The US International Boundary and Waters Commission (IBWC) issues flood reports, warning of the dangers when rivers are running at flood stage.

Here is a report with a better ending: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/border-patrol-marine-unit-rescues-two-rio-grande

More about US Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) here: https://twitter.com/USBPChief, and here: https://twitter.com/CBP, and here: https://twitter.com/CBPSouthTexas

June 26 - We've made progress reducing the number of people in custody from its May peak, but more is needed. We again call on Congress to help us w/ humanitarian aid, & to give our partners ICE & HHS the bed space needed to quickly transfer adults & unaccompanied children from our custody

June 24 - A Border Patrol K-9 sniffed out nearly 10lbs of cocaine hidden in the dashboard of a vehicle at a USBP checkpoint in CA

June 24 - In the past, we'd arrest the same individual multiple times on any given day & they'd be quickly returned. This meant higher arrest counts, but fewer people. This isn't the case now w/ the current demographic: one arrest & they're released into the country until their hearing.

June 24 - Border Patrol agents in TX arrested a Mexican national early Thursday morning who was convicted for murder in the United States and had previously been deported

June 23 - Criminal cartels distract our agents by crossing large groups of migrants. 193 groups of 100+ people each so far this fiscal year. When agents are forced to abandon their posts to deal w/ these groups, criminals try to sneak dangerous people & contraband through undetected.

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Dear Granny41,
> God bless their souls.
> Unfortunately, they took a big risk, made a poor choice.
> The International Boundary and Waters Commission IBWC issues flood reports, warning of the dangers when rivers are running at flood stage.


My question was----where is your humanity?? Clearly you have none?


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Dear nitnana,
> I believe there may be important differences.
> 
> Colorado cake baker was exercising a Constitutional right: freedom of religion, acting according to religious beliefs.
> ...


1) Ravelry's decision had nothing to do with religion. That was just one of the designer's patterns that you are cherry picking to support your bias and it is my understanding that it was not one isolated pattern which caused that designer to be banned.

2) Here is my understanding of what led that designer to be banned - the designer had placed numerous patterns of accessories with conservative messaging and a commenter flagged one of the projects as innapropriate. Rather than dealing with the problem then and there, the designer and her supporters began a campaign of harassment, both on Ravelry and on outside social media sites and elsewhere. They found the commenter's other social media profiles and harassed the commenter. They and also found the commenter's address from a past swap partner and then doxxed the commentor. It got so bad that the person who flagged the pattern deleted all of their social media accounts. My understanding was there were death threats (as well as other threats) involved.

If you have actual factual evidence to counter what I have stated above, I'm sure you'll correct me. That being said, this seems to be the understanding of how the particular designer was banned, and a part of what led to the decision by Ravelry to make their new policy.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

Granny41 said:


> My question was----where is your humanity?? Clearly you have none?


 Dear Granny41, 
My humanity was expressed in the simple prayer, "God Bless their souls."
I acknowledged their humanity with a simple prayer to our Creator and giver of life.
You don't have to like it.
We don't have to agree.
But to deny anyone's humanity is hateful.
That is what you did.
Several times.

The US Population Clock shows people being born, immigrating, dying every day: https://www.census.gov/popclock/
Every one of them matters.
They matter to their families, they matter to our Creator.
We may never meet them.
And if we did, we may not agree with all of their thoughts, ideas, and beliefs.
But we can still choose to be civil, logical, and factual.

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## scumbugusa (Oct 10, 2011)

Damiano said:


> I don't care where we all stand politically. We ALL must tell Ravelry this is UNACCEPTABLE!!!
> 
> https://www.toddstarnes.com/politics/knitting-website-tells-trump-supporters-they-are-no-longer-welcome/


Isn't "We ALL must tell Ravelry this is UNACCEPTABLE!!!", imposing our views on Ravelry?

They are not going to listen to anyone else's opinion, if they did, there would be an equal amount of political 'sharing', or non allowed at all.

I do not agree with my friends religious beliefs, but we respect each others differences and move on.

Accept that we are all different.


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Dear Granny41,
> My humanity was expressed in the simple prayer, "God Bless their souls."
> I acknowledged their humanity with a simple prayer to our Creator and giver of life.
> You don't have to like it.
> ...


Going forward I choose to ignore you.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

CorvallisKnitter said:


> 1) Ravelry's decision had nothing to do with religion. That was just one of the designer's patterns that you are cherry picking to support your bias and it is my understanding that it was not one isolated pattern which caused that designer to be banned.
> 
> 2) Here is my understanding of what led that designer to be banned - the designer had placed numerous patterns of accessories with conservative messaging and a commenter flagged one of the projects as innapropriate. Rather than dealing with the problem then and there, the designer and her supporters began a campaign of harassment, both on Ravelry and on outside social media sites and elsewhere. They found the commenter's other social media profiles and harassed the commenter. They and also found the commenter's address from a past swap partner and then doxxed the commentor. It got so bad that the person who flagged the pattern deleted all of their social media accounts. My understanding was there were death threats (as well as other threats) involved.
> 
> If you have actual factual evidence to counter what I have stated above, I'm sure you'll correct me. That being said, this seems to be the understanding of how the particular designer was banned, and a part of what led to the decision by Ravelry to make their new policy.


 Dear CorvallisKnitter, 
Thank you for sharing this information. 
I do NOT condone doxing or harassment or threats/intimidation of any kind. 
Although there have been several long threads discussing ravelry's announcement of the new ban (https://www.ravelry.com/content/no-trump), 
this is the first post in which I have seen these events described.

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Dear Granny41,
> God bless their souls.
> Unfortunately, they took a big risk, made a poor choice.
> This is not necessarily a reflection on the President, or any American.
> ...


Curious how fleeing refugees would have access to the flood reports?. Your article you posted about the father and daughter who were thankfully rescued ended with "After being released from the hospital, both father and child were processed per CBP guidelines". We know what that means-separated and child caged.


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Dear CorvallisKnitter,
> Thank you for sharing this information.
> I do NOT condone doxing or harassment or threats/intimidation of any kind.
> Although there have been several long threads discussing ravelry's announcement of the new ban (https://www.ravelry.com/content/no-trump),
> ...


I got the information that I shared on my post (regarding part of what led to the new policy on Ravelry) on several Ravelry discussion group threads, not on threads here on KP or elsewhere, and the people on the Ravelry discussion threads know some of the folks involved personally. BTW - there was no need to share the link as I am well aware of the new policy.


----------



## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

knovice knitter said:


> Curious how fleeing refugees would have access to the flood reports?. Your article you posted about the father and daughter who were thankfully rescued ended with "After being released from the hospital, both father and child were processed per CBP guidelines". We know what that means-separated and child caged.


This is not addressed to you personally, please understand that. I am just having a very sad day.

I will tell you where my outrage is this morning. I got up this morning at about 5:30. Made pot of coffee, got my knitting and turned on the news. This is pretty much my regular morning routine. What is the first news item?
Oscar Alberto Martinez with his 23 month old daughter Angie Valeria, tucked inside his shirt, dead on the bank of the Rio Grande. Why was he there? Because he fled the violence and poverty in his home country, El Salvador and spent over two months at the US border trying to apply for refugee status. To make it even worse his wife had to watch as her husband and baby girl drowned.
I ask all of you conservatives to dredge down to the bottom of your soul and try to relate to this situation. What if Oscar was YOUR SON? His wife YOUR DAUGHTER IN LAW and poor wee Angie YOUR GRANDBABY.
My god what is wrong with you? Where is your humanity.
I cried in frustration. I feel so helpless.
At 9:30 this morning I went to the end of school assembly in the gym of the wonderful JK-5 elementary school that my wee GD attends. Slightly over 300 clean, well dressed, well fed, happy kids, their Principal, teachers and family members. What a contrast to what children who are being in detention at your border in filth and deprived of the comfort of their families. Again---where is your humanity?
I cried again as I was presented a lovely gift from the staff of the school in appreciation for my volunteer time spent at the school.
I am so very melancholy that I am near tears again. What is the matter with this world? What is the matter with your country. So many have so much and yet they have no compassion.
My rant is done and I fear that I have wasted my time trying to share my feelings at this moment.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/25/us/father-daughter-border-drowning-picture-mexico.html


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

knovice knitter said:


> Curious how fleeing refugees would have access to the flood reports?


 Dear knovice knitter, 
Yes, I thought of this, too. Point being that authorities in the vicinity know when the waters are dangerously high. One possibility is US IBWC sharing reports with Mexico counterpart, who would be responsible for dissemination of information on their side of the border.



knovice knitter said:


> "After being released from the hospital, both father and child were processed per CBP guidelines". We know what that means-separated and child caged.


 Unfortunately, in the worst cases of overcrowding the sleeping areas are separated by chain link fencing. I am not defending detainment conditions. It is my understanding that the detainment circumstances are evidence of:

1) Not enough funding for humanitarian conditions
2019 -

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1143883371547959301House (D) and Senate (R) have different plans. Illegal immigration is a bi-partisan issue.

2) The number of people attempting to enter the US illegally is overwhelming the system 
2014 - https://qz.com/1291470/photos-immigrant-children-detained-at-the-placement-center-in-2014/
2014 - https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/immigration/2014/06/18/arizona-immigrant-children-holding-area-tour/10780449/
2014 - https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/us/obama-seeks-billions-for-children-immigration-crisis.html
2018 - Candace Owens toured an ICE detention facility

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1038093065343229952
3) A crisis at the Mexico-US border 
2014 - https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/us/obama-seeks-billions-for-children-immigration-crisis.html
2019 - https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/683623555/president-obama-also-faced-a-crisis-at-the-southern-border,

4) Immigration reform is needed

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

CorvallisKnitter said:


> I got the information that I shared on my post (regarding part of what led to the new policy on Ravelry) on several Ravelry discussion group threads, not on threads here on KP or elsewhere, and the people on the Ravelry discussion threads know some of the folks involved personally.


 Dear CorvallisKnitter, 
Thank you for this information. 


CorvallisKnitter said:


> BTW - there was no need to share the link as I am well aware of the new policy.


 Yes, just wanted to indicate that I had actually read it, too!

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Meanwhile, several posts have indicated that at least one designer was banned by ravelry for her faith-based description of her "God Is Love" hat pattern,
> to which some people took offense.
> In this circumstance, the designer was exercising a Constitutional right: freedom of religion, acting according to religious beliefs.
> 
> ...


They suspended me for 24 hours once for telling some people I'd pray for them.


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

Susie2016 said:


> They suspended me for 24 hours once for telling some people I'd pray for them.


Must have been one of your previous lives here as Admin. has been AWOL pretty much for the past couple of years, predating your entry into the arena.


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## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

CorvallisKnitter said:


> Must have been one of your previous lives here as Admin. has been AWOL pretty much for the past couple of years, predating your entry into the arena.


RAVELRY did that, not KP. Keep up, will you?


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

Susie2016 said:


> RAVELRY did that, not KP. Keep up, will you?


Ah, thank you for that clarification.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

Granny41 said:


> I will tell you where my outrage is this morning. I got up this morning at about 5:30. Made pot of coffee, got my knitting and turned on the news. This is pretty much my regular morning routine. What is the first news item?
> Oscar Alberto Martinez with his 23 month old daughter Angie Valeria, tucked inside his shirt, dead on the bank of the Rio Grande. Why was he there? Because he fled the violence and poverty in his home country, El Salvador and spent over two months at the US border trying to apply for refugee status. To make it even worse his wife had to watch as her husband and baby girl drowned.
> I ask all of you conservatives to dredge down to the bottom of your soul and try to relate to this situation. What if Oscar was YOUR SON? His wife YOUR DAUGHTER IN LAW and poor wee Angie YOUR GRANDBABY.
> My god what is wrong with you? Where is your humanity.


 Dear Granny41, why do you address your outrage to US conservatives? In the US, illegal immigration is a bi-partisan issue. 
1) Not enough funding for humanitarian conditions
2019 -

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1143883371547959301House (D) and Senate (R) have different plans... and illegal immigration remains a bi-partisan issue.

2) The number of people attempting to enter the US illegally is overwhelming the system
2014 - https://qz.com/1291470/photos-immigrant-children-detained-at-the-placement-center-in-2014/
2014 - https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/immigration/2014/06/18/arizona-immigrant-children-holding-area-tour/10780449/
2014 - https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/us/obama-seeks-billions-for-children-immigration-crisis.html
2018 - Candace Owens toured an ICE detention facility

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1038093065343229952
3) A crisis at the Mexico-US border
2014 - https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/us/obama-seeks-billions-for-children-immigration-crisis.html
2019 - https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/683623555/president-obama-also-faced-a-crisis-at-the-southern-border 

Real accountability and responsibility belong to the countries from which people are fleeing.
That said, the US provides assistance to El Salvador and many countries. 
Here are just a few of the many links available online: https://www.usaid.gov/el-salvador, https://www.usaid.gov/reports-and-data



Granny41 said:


> I cried in frustration. I feel so helpless.


 Serenity Prayer: God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference.



Granny41 said:


> At 9:30 this morning I went to the end of school assembly in the gym of the wonderful JK-5 elementary school that my wee GD attends. Slightly over 300 clean, well dressed, well fed, happy kids, their Principal, teachers and family members... I cried again as I was presented a lovely gift from the staff of the school in appreciation for my volunteer time spent at the school.


 Some have volunteered for years on end at schools which our progeny do not attend, at impoverished schools where the kids are not always clean, well fed, or happy... but are eager to learn. At schools which are unable to present lovely gifts. Some have much less than you describe having and yet give tirelessly out of compassion for our fellow humankind, made in God's image. One need not go to the news reports at the border to be moved to tears... many of us find deep need, which we are able to serve, within our own community.

My rant is done and I hope that I've helped you to consider that you are not the only compassionate person, and no political party has all compassionate individuals. Please do not judge others as lacking humanity, simply because you may not agree with them.

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


----------



## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

Susie2016 said:


> They suspended me for 24 hours once for telling some people I'd pray for them.


 PM'd you

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Granny41 said:


> This is not addressed to you personally, please understand that. I am just having a very sad day.
> 
> I will tell you where my outrage is this morning. I got up this morning at about 5:30. Made pot of coffee, got my knitting and turned on the news. This is pretty much my regular morning routine. What is the first news item?
> Oscar Alberto Martinez with his 23 month old daughter Angie Valeria, tucked inside his shirt, dead on the bank of the Rio Grande. Why was he there? Because he fled the violence and poverty in his home country, El Salvador and spent over two months at the US border trying to apply for refugee status. To make it even worse his wife had to watch as her husband and baby girl drowned.
> ...


I'm glad you shared. I am heartbroken and have been for several years regarding the US immigration policies. I've especially been involved the past two years in whatever effort I can. Now, that our big move is nearly complete, I'm looking into getting involved with CASA! https://casaforchildren.org/


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

RookieRetiree said:


> I've especially been involved the past two years in whatever effort I can. Now, that our big move is nearly complete, I'm looking into getting involved with CASA! https://casaforchildren.org/


 Dear RookieRetiree, 
Yes! There are many ways to help humankind... I believe we are all called to serve _in some way_, big or small.
I am always impressed by the amount of charitable knitting KP members do.

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

RookieRetiree said:


> I'm glad you shared. I am heartbroken and have been for several years regarding the US immigration policies. I've especially been involved the past two years in whatever effort I can. Now, that our big move is nearly complete, I'm looking into getting involved with CASA! https://casaforchildren.org/


Wonderful. If I were a resident of the US I would certainly support a charity like CASA. I do sponsor a young man in Guatemala through an international NGO. Hopefully it makes some small difference in his life. We exchange letters and he seems like a really nice kid but his life is tough!


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Granny41 said:


> Wonderful. If I were a resident of the US I would certainly support a charity like CASA. I do sponsor a young man in Guatemala through an international NGO. Hopefully it makes some small difference in his life. We exchange letters and he seems like a really nice kid but his life is tough!


So many things we take for granted like nearby safe water.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Granny41 said:


> This is not addressed to you personally, please understand that. I am just having a very sad day.
> 
> I will tell you where my outrage is this morning. I got up this morning at about 5:30. Made pot of coffee, got my knitting and turned on the news. This is pretty much my regular morning routine. What is the first news item?
> Oscar Alberto Martinez with his 23 month old daughter Angie Valeria, tucked inside his shirt, dead on the bank of the Rio Grande. Why was he there? Because he fled the violence and poverty in his home country, El Salvador and spent over two months at the US border trying to apply for refugee status. To make it even worse his wife had to watch as her husband and baby girl drowned.
> ...


That story I did not hear. Too busy reading all this ravelry rage. I know you know me well enough to not be including me in the conservative group. The story quatrefoilknits referred to had a much better outcome. I felt the victims in her story were being blamed by her because they should have listened to the flood reports. Anyway, the other man, his little girl and his witnessing wife have me in tears. My nephew's wife speaks fluent Spanish as she is Peruvian and she is a partner in a law firm, specializing in immigration law. She and some other lawyers from her firm went down to Texas late Fall to try and help. They were able to talk to only men, head of families. The refugees, had a variety of dialects, so communication was not as fluent as they had hoped. She could barely talk about it when I asked as it was so emotional. She said these people cannot be demonized. The men she spoke with were incredibly poor, hard working farmers, trying to get their families to safety.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Unfortunately, in the worst cases of overcrowding the sleeping areas are separated by chain link fencing. I am not defending detainment conditions. It is my understanding that the detainment circumstances are evidence of:
> 
> 1) Not enough funding for humanitarian conditions
> 2019 -
> ...


First of all, I'd appreciate it if you did not address me as "Dear" Knovice Knitter and dismiss me with "Happy Knitting" and a smiley face. This is a forum and we are not pen pals. As for your links...all refer to illegal immigration. That is completely different from refugee status. If these people were coming here illegally, they would be immediately deported.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Susie2016 said:


> They suspended me for 24 hours once for telling some people I'd pray for them.


 I have a feeling there is more to this story.


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

knovice knitter said:


> Who suspended you? I have a feeling there is more to this story.


Allegedly by Ravelry, though I'd be amazed if the reason given was telling the whole truth. I do know that this poster was blocked from a certain group thread on Ravelry.


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

Granny41 said:


> The pictures of a Salvadorian man and his 23 month old daughter who drowned attempting to reach the US brought this old woman to tears this morning. Donald Trump--where is your humanity?
> https://people.com/politics/wrenching-photo-father-daughter-drown-river-dangers-migrants-face/


He has NONE! From what I have been reading here, not many of his supporters do either. How can one not have any empathy at all for these poor people?


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## RobbiD (Nov 13, 2012)

raindancer said:


> He believes in American citizens as long as they are not Hispanic, Black, Muslim, or from "sh*t hole" countries. When he was whining about the immigrants, he said "Why can't we get immigrants from Norway?"


Because the Norwegians are quite happy right where they are! Why would they emigrate?


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## raindancer (Aug 19, 2012)

Phillygirl1807 said:


> There are "Obama Knitting Groups" on Ravelry. There are also anti-Trump patterns available there to download. Politics should not be shoved down our throats - but Ravelry still allows one side of the political spectrum to have a voice, and to submit political patterns. How is that "inclusive?" Knitting is an escape for me from nasty politics. Now even a knitting website has taken a political stand against conservative knitters. I deleted my membership today.


If by "conservative", you really mean white supremacists, I'm sure they will be delighted that you deleted your membership today. Ravelry announced this change on Sunday. Between Sunday and Monday, 1,170 new members joined Ravelry. What the total yesterday was, I have not looked, but they have over 8,500,000 members worldwide, so they will be just fine!


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## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

CorvallisKnitter said:


> Allegedly by Ravelry, though I'd be amazed if the reason given was telling the whole truth. I do know that this poster was blocked from a certain group thread on Ravelry.


Uh, where in the world did you ever hear that? I am not blocked from ANY group on Ravelry. But I have been "timed out" (for 24 hours) a couple of times for "infractions". Once for telling people I was praying for them. And another time for telling somebody that they must be very sad and bitter to talk to people the way they do. But I am not blocked or ejected from any group. (You must be engaging in wishful thinking.)


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## RobbiD (Nov 13, 2012)

whale watcher said:


> Where in here is the taunting and jeering? Please help me find it (I am serious)
> 
> As Prepared for Delivery -
> 
> ...


Obviously Trump should read his own speech again. And we shoulda known better (of course some of us did), this was his first big fat lie after being sworn in! Please point out to me where he has accomplished ANY of these empty promises. He has been worse than all of the things he was railing against. Sheesh!


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

RobbiD said:


> Because the Norwegians are quite happy right where they are! Why would they emigrate?


You will find Norway and my country on this list but the USA did not make the cut!https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/07/these-countries-have-the-highest-quality-of-life


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## RobbiD (Nov 13, 2012)

Jessica-Jean said:


> We - members of KP - know about Ravelry, though many get lost trying to navigate it. There are a humongous number of yarny folk who haven't ever gone online looking for anything yarny; they are the ones who never heard of it and will hopefully now swell Ravelry's membership. It would be nice were they all to contribute to it from now on, but that's just a wish, unlikely to be fulfilled.


I'm sure that a good many people did not know about Ravelry before these articles were printed. I didn't know about it until I found KP. And I stumbled upon KP by sheer accident.


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## ScarletDove (Oct 2, 2011)

Monday I logged into Ravelry and there was a "political notice policy" on the home page. I found it biased and unnecessary on a knitting site; I cancelled my account because I was considered unwelcome and I only went there to look for items/information...never even used their forum and I did not want to be part of that kind of community!


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## RobbiD (Nov 13, 2012)

Granny41 said:


> You will find Norway and my country on this list but the USA did not make the cut!https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/07/these-countries-have-the-highest-quality-of-life


Thanks for the link. I'm not sure which country is yours, but I noticed all of them got high marks for healthcare. This list almost makes me wish all of my grandparents had stayed "home". Their home countries are quite high on the list. But then, my parents may have never met :sm09:


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

Susie2016 said:


> Uh, where in the world did you ever hear that? I am not blocked from ANY group on Ravelry. But I have been "timed out" (for 24 hours) a couple of times for "infractions". Once for telling people I was praying for them. And another time for telling somebody that they must be very sad and bitter to talk to people the way they do. But I am not blocked or ejected from any group. (You must be engaging in wishful thinking.)[/quote
> 
> Interesting. Are you still on Ravelry?


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## ScarletDove (Oct 2, 2011)

Cheryl_K said:


> Ravelry account already deleted. I won't be missing it. I only saw the new policy today because I had a minute at work and thought I'd look at some knitting. I don't agree with their decision, so I'll look elsewhere, like here on KP. At least you can express your opinion here, no matter what it is.


I did the same, went there Monday, saw the policy, did not like their decision and realized I was unwelcome, cancelled account. Ravelry could have handled "their" problem by monitoring their forums for content. One time I went looking for hat patterns there and found some I deemed "offensive" for a public site; I did not think much of them for allowing it but I just moved on and ignored it since I did not spend much time at Ravelry.


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## Susie2016 (Feb 28, 2016)

CorvallisKnitter said:


> Susie2016 said:
> 
> 
> > Uh, where in the world did you ever hear that? I am not blocked from ANY group on Ravelry. But I have been "timed out" (for 24 hours) a couple of times for "infractions". Once for telling people I was praying for them. And another time for telling somebody that they must be very sad and bitter to talk to people the way they do. But I am not blocked or ejected from any group. (You must be engaging in wishful thinking.)[/quote
> ...


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## ScarletDove (Oct 2, 2011)

drruth said:


> I'm sorry but this is still a free country with a constitution that guarantees our free speech. Not just some people's free speech but everyone's free speech! It is disgusting that a knitting site, of all places, would ban some people based on their political leanings. Most of us are on this site to share ideas and accomplishments, not to discuss politics. I hope there is a mass exodus from Ravelry. It sets one more dangerous precedent and if you aren't on the "wrong" side now, your turn is coming. This type of policy never stops with just one group.


Cancelled my account when I logged on and saw the notice.


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## ScarletDove (Oct 2, 2011)

Louette said:


> I'm done with Ravelry. I'm certain they will not miss me nor shall I they.


Amen!


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## ScarletDove (Oct 2, 2011)

Starbuckxvi said:


> I just read that Ravelry has been overwhelmed with new members since the announcement. I don't think they are regretting it. I even heard they have had to suspend accepting new members temporarily.


Good, now they can have an exclusive community!


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

RobbiD said:


> Thanks for the link. I'm not sure which country is yours, but I noticed all of them got high marks for healthcare. This list almost makes me wish all of my grandparents had stayed "home". Their home countries are quite high on the list. But then, my parents may have never met :sm09:


My country is right after Finland which is #1.


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## ScarletDove (Oct 2, 2011)

Fundogknit said:


> Nobody cares if you are conservative, we are pissed off you are supporting a knowing white nationalist, a rapist too.


You do not know me and I do not know you, but I will say your statement is not worth a response!


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## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

Susie2016 said:


> You seem to be really interested in me.....


Perhaps it's because you seem so nice sometimes, and yet, you can be so toxic and mean at other times (I've witnessed both sides). You remind me of a relative of mine.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

knovice knitter said:


> As for your links...all refer to illegal immigration. That is completely different from refugee status. If these people were coming here illegally, they would be immediately deported.


 knovice knitter,

1) Yes, the links referred to illegal immigration.
The stories being discussed were: 
- Father & Child from El Salvador (unfortunately, drowned) https://people.com/politics/wrenching-photo-father-daughter-drown-river-dangers-migrants-face/
Article says they came "_to seek asylum from the violence and poverty in their home nation" This does not meet the definition of refugee_
- Father & Child from Honduras (fortunately, rescued) https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/border-patrol-marine-unit-rescues-two-rio-grande
Described in article as "_undocumented immigrants." This does not meet the definition of refugee_

2) Yes, illegal immigration is completely different from refugee status.
The two families in the articles under discussion were not described as refugees but rather as undocumented immigrants seeking asylum.
The US Citizenship & Immigration Services (USCIS) describes Refugee Status here: https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum and here: https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/refugees and provides a link to the official definition of refugee and asylee... which includes "*Demonstrates that they were persecuted or fear persecution due to race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or membership in a particular social group*." Unfortunately, the definition for refugee does not include escaping poverty and violence. I have contacted my legislators asking them to consider including escaping poverty and violence as grounds for asylum, rather than adhering to definition of refugee as grounds for asylum.

3) No, people currently coming here illegally are not necessarily immediately deported, per the US Border Patrol Chief, June 24, 2019: 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1143262395705581568"In the past, we'd arrest the same individual multiple times on any given day & they'd be quickly returned. This meant higher arrest counts, but fewer people. This isn't the case now w/ the current demographic: *one arrest & they're released into the country until their hearing*." I may be one small voice that helped bring this change about, as I have contacted my legislators explaining that my understanding is that the 14th amendment applies to everyone on American soil, not just to citizens.

I believe that with Immigration Reform the US could increase its capacity to welcome and transition/assimilate more families, providing them legal status.
I believe there are many people throughout the political spectrum working to identify and address the myriad issues involved. Including online research into source documents, talking with legal immigrants, talking with illegal immigrants, writing letters to their legislators.

Meanwhile, did you read the conditions in the first article: "Prior to the tragedy, the family of three had been staying at a migrant camp located on the Puerta México bridge for two months, with increasingly unbearable conditions that included lack of food, overcrowding, and temperatures above 110-degrees, according to _La Jornada_." Where is the outrage toward Mexico for such conditions? Where is the outrage toward El Salvador for conditions which caused the family to flee?

May I suggest that all persons interested in helping, can find a way to contribute positively, in some way big or small!


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## Granny41 (Feb 24, 2015)

quatrefoilknits said:


> knovice knitter,
> 
> 1) Yes, the links referred to illegal immigration.
> The stories being discussed were:
> ...


I see that you have spent many, many hours today being deliberately obtuse. Please don't reply with a thesis. I am really not that interested. Just dropped in to make an observation.

Happy keyboarding.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

Granny41 said:


> I see that you have spent many, many hours today _being deliberately obtuse_. Please don't reply with a thesis. I am really not that interested. Just dropped in to make an observation.
> 
> Happy keyboarding.


 Dear Granny41,
Rather than focusing on issues-at-hand such as political division or alleviating the difficulties which illegal immigrants face as they flee their homeland and unwittingly become part of humanitarian crisis at the Mexico - US Border... rather than contributing in a positive manner, such as acknowledging and/or encouraging even small actions which can be taken to help bring an end to the suffering, you have chosen to make an ad hominem attack. 
:sm16: 
Some may say that in the context of this thread, annoyingly insensitive or _deliberately obtuse_ posts may be those which boast of 
- over 300 clean, well dressed, well fed, happy kids
- being presented a lovely gift from the staff of the school in appreciation for volunteer time spent at the school
- residing in a country which has the 2nd highest quality of life _(but takes in few impoverished Central American and South American families)_.
:sm25: 


Granny41 said:


> Happy keyboarding.


 Clever! 
Yes, I did not get much knitting done today. 
Gardening mostly, but keyboarding, too.
:sm11:
Happy knitting, and keyboarding!


----------



## p632 (Jun 24, 2019)

Seems to me the El Salvadorans and Venezuelans lost their "refugee" status when they crossed the borders into the neighboring country. To travel so many miles across Mexico with the US as the final destination is more of a migration, especially in the reported numbers who have made the journey.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

p632 said:


> Seems to me the El Salvadorans and Venezuelans lost their "refugee" status when they crossed the borders into the neighboring country. To travel so many miles across Mexico with the US as the final destination is more of a migration, especially in the reported numbers who have made the journey.


It is a migration. Is there significance in that distinction?

Certainly, it's not an invasion of rapists as the fear mongering administration would have us believe.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

p632 said:


> Seems to me the El Salvadorans and Venezuelans lost their "refugee" status when they crossed the borders into the neighboring country. To travel so many miles across Mexico with the US as the final destination is more of a migration, especially in the reported numbers who have made the journey.


 Dear 632, 
When discussing options of improving the prospects and opportunities for these people, there is a very specific vocabulary and definitions for each type of status...

The US Citizenship & Immigration Services (USCIS) describes Refugee Status here: https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum and here: https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/refugees and provides a link to the official definition of refugee and asylee... which includes "Demonstrates that they *were persecuted or fear persecution due to race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or membership in a particular social group*."

It is my understanding that they would not have lost _refugee_ status by crossing from their country into another...
but would lose refugee status by crossing into the US without having first completed paperwork from somewhere outside the US.

It is my understanding that once in the US they may possibly apply for _asylum status_, but still have to prove persecution or fear of persecution.

Based on the information from the USCIS, I do not believe they have a meaning for the term _migrant_.
What we might think of migrant workers are called Employment-Based immigrants and can apply for a green card: https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/employment-based


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## p632 (Jun 24, 2019)

RookieRetiree said:


> It is a migration. Is there significance in that distinction?
> 
> Certainly, it's not an invasion of rapists as the fear mongering administration would have us believe.


The point being that the migration as a flee from danger and oppression was realized when they crossed the border of their own country. What is the point of their continuing their hardship and strife across Mexico?


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

p632 said:


> The point being that the migration as a flee from danger and oppression was realized when they crossed the border of their own country. What is the point of their continuing their hardship and strife across Mexico?


Oppressed people have always chosen the United States for a new start.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

RookieRetiree said:


> Certainly, it's not an invasion of rapists as the fear mongering administration would have us believe.


 Dear RookieRetiree, 
The makeup of the illegal immigrants is widely varied:

There are wonderful hardworking families, as knitting knovice mentioned.

There have also been documented cases of South/Central American countries releasing people from their prison populations into the US (sorry not finding link at the moment).

There are also the day to day cases journaled in tweets from the source
USBorderPatrolChief - https://twitter.com/USBPChief (website https://www.cbp.gov/)
US Customs and Border Protection - https://twitter.com/CBP
US Customs and Border Patrol, South Texas - https://twitter.com/CBPSouthTexas
US Customs and Border Patrol, Arizona - https://twitter.com/CBPArizona
US Customs and Border Patrol, ElCentro - https://twitter.com/CBPElCentro 
etc

Just a few of the encounters:
Rapists and more - https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/sex-offenders-water-rescues-and-large-group-apprehensions-highlight
Agent assaulted -

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1143223213993803776Drugs (48lbs Meth, $111K) -

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1140749603353968640Convicted sex offenders -

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1135711249243631616Fraudulent family -

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1137115151608438784
As to whether it is an invasion... if we look at definitions and synonyms we'll have a common knowledge base to determine if this word fits.

_1) an instance of invading a country or region with an armed force.
synonyms: occupation, conquering, capture, seizure, annexation, annexing, takeover, appropriation, expropriation, arrogation, overrunning, *overwhelming*, storming, *attack*, incursion, offensive, assailing, *assault*, onslaught, foray, sortie, raid

2) an incursion by a large number of people or things into a place or sphere of activity.
"stadium guards are preparing for another invasion of fans"
"every year the valley suffers an invasion of cars"
synonyms: *influx, inundation, inrush, rush, flood, torrent, deluge, stream *...

3) an unwelcome intrusion into another's domain.
"random drug testing of employees is an unwarranted invasion of privacy"
synonyms: *violation*, infringement, interruption, disturbance, disruption, breach, infraction..._

I'd say the first decision does not fit well. Although some illegal immigrants *attack* or *assault* agents, this is not the main activity.
But the synonym *overwhelming* fits, due to the sheer number of people overwhelming the system.

I'd say the second definition fits. There is is a *flood* of people, thereby overwhelming the system. CBP is hiring and looking to scale up.

I'd say that the third definition does not fit well, although arriving illegally is a *violation*.

In summary, I'd say it is an invasion.

What are your thoughts?


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## knitonashingle (Apr 30, 2015)

CorvallisKnitter said:


> 1) If you have actual factual evidence to counter what I have stated above, I'm sure you'll correct me. That being said, this seems to be the understanding of how the particular designer was banned, and a part of what led to the decision by Ravelry to make their new policy.


I do, but I am not compelled to share it with you. It is in the legal department right now. Only to state that you are wrong. When I am able to share it, I will.

Thanks,


----------



## knitonashingle (Apr 30, 2015)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Dear RookieRetiree,
> The makeup of the illegal immigrants is widely varied:
> There have also been documented cases of South/Central American countries releasing people from their prison populations into the US (sorry not finding link at the moment).


Here you go, glad to help:

https://www.weeklystandard.com/philip-terzian/trump-was-right-castro-did-send-criminals-to-us

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/castro-announces-mariel-boatlift


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## RobbiD (Nov 13, 2012)

knitonashingle said:


> Here you go, glad to help:
> 
> https://www.weeklystandard.com/philip-terzian/trump-was-right-castro-did-send-criminals-to-us
> 
> https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/castro-announces-mariel-boatlift


Nice try, but Cuba is in neither Central, nor South America. Cuba is a Caribbean island.
https://www.ducksters.com/geography/centralamerica.php


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## knitonashingle (Apr 30, 2015)

scumbugusa said:


> Isn't "We ALL must tell Ravelry this is UNACCEPTABLE!!!", imposing our views on Ravelry?
> 
> They are not going to listen to anyone else's opinion, if they did, there would be an equal amount of political 'sharing', or non allowed at all.
> 
> ...


Well that would be true IF WE WERE A BUSINESS... which we are not. We are end-users. RAVELRY is/was a business. You are comparing apples to oranges.


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## Knitting in the Rockys (Aug 17, 2015)

RobbiD said:


> Nice try, but Cuba is in neither Central, nor South America. Cuba is a Caribbean island.
> https://www.ducksters.com/geography/centralamerica.php


Some KP members have difficulty with geography. I've actually laughed out loud at members who have said that Kiev and Chernobyl are located in Russia!! Then of course there are those who think that Puerto Rico is a foreign country along with American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, and the U.S. Virgin Islands!


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Knitting in the Rockys said:


> Some KP members have difficulty with geography. I've actually laughed out loud at members who have said that Kiev and Chernobyl are located in Russia!! Then of course there are those who think that Puerto Rico is a foreign country along with American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, and the U.S. Virgin Islands!


The guy in the WH?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/04/02/hogan-gidley-defends-trump-calls-puerto-rico-that-country-twice/3345062002/

I wonder if he is still there?

I just checked...he still is.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/hogan-gidley-media-coverage-of-trumps-dirt-comments-misleading


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

knitonashingle said:


> Here you go, glad to help:
> 
> https://www.weeklystandard.com/philip-terzian/trump-was-right-castro-did-send-criminals-to-us
> 
> https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/castro-announces-mariel-boatlift


 Dear knitonashingle, 
Thank you for the links.

The articles which I am looking for were actually more recent, and I believe the prisoners were from Central & South American countries.

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

RobbiD said:


> Nice try, but Cuba is in neither Central, nor South America. Cuba is a Caribbean island.
> https://www.ducksters.com/geography/centralamerica.php


 Dear RobbiD, 
LOL, I'm sure that knitonashingle knows geography... and mostly likely figured I had remembered the countries incorrectly, especially since I've been able to locate the link.

That said, I do appreciate knitonashingle sharing those links.

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


----------



## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

Knitting in the Rockys said:


> Some KP members have difficulty with geography. I've actually laughed out loud at members who have said that Kiev and Chernobyl are located in Russia!! Then of course there are those who think that Puerto Rico is a foreign country along with American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, and the U.S. Virgin Islands!


 Dear Knitting in the Rockies, 
LOL, One need not be a member of KP to make a misstatement concerning geography (or anything else)...
For example, do you recall 44 stating, on the campaign trail in May 2008, that he'd visited 57 states?! 
https://www.politifact.com/texas/article/2011/nov/30/perry-recaps-obamas-57-states-remark/

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## Knitting in the Rockys (Aug 17, 2015)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Dear Knitting in the Rockies,
> LOL, One need not be a member of KP to make a misstatement concerning geography (or anything else)...
> For example, do you recall 44 stating, on the campaign trail in May 2008, that he'd visited 57 states?!
> https://www.politifact.com/texas/article/2011/nov/30/perry-recaps-obamas-57-states-remark/
> ...


I'm sure it was simply an oversight on your part but "Rockies", doesn't appear in my user name.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

knitonashingle said:


> Well that would be true IF WE WERE A BUSINESS... which we are not. We are end-users. RAVELRY is/was a business. You are comparing apples to oranges.


From her post, I see nothing about KP. She is making no comparison whatsoever. She spoke of Ravelry which is a business. There is no "was" about it. That's how rumors fly.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Knitting in the Rockys said:


> I'm sure it was simply an oversight on your part but "Rockies", doesn't appear in my user name.


Pretty sure she did that to irritate you.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

Knitting in the Rockys said:


> I'm sure it was simply an oversight on your part but "Rockies", doesn't appear in my user name.


 LOL, thanks for mentioning the error, Knitting in the Rockys... autocorrect... typo... or clever pun because we were discussing geography...???

:sm17: 
Happy knitting!


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## Knitting in the Rockys (Aug 17, 2015)

knovice knitter said:


> Pretty sure she did that to irritate you.


Not irritating at all, I find it humorous when people resort to such petty vindictiveness.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

knovice knitter said:


> Pretty sure she did that to irritate you.


 knovice knitter, why would you say this? It is unkind and divisive.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

Knitting in the Rockys said:


> Not irritating at all, I find it humorous when people resort to such petty vindictiveness.


 Knitting in the Rockys, what was petty and vindictive?


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

NJG said:


> Her main goal along with her boss has been since day 1 to get rid of anything connected to President Obama. 45 wants to destroy President Obama's legacy and if our children are hurt in the process, well that is just too bad. That's the way the ball bounces. There is much more than what is listed here but I have spent enough time on this. The majority of the people did not want her but 45 never pays attention to what the people want, only what he wants. She wants to privatize everything, give vouchers for kids to go to private schools and taxpayer money to pay for it which means less money left for public schools. But then this is the Republican way privatize privatize privatize. They will do it to social security if we let them and God only knows what else. Anything that someone can make some money off of like prisons or these children at the border. Who is making money off of holding them?
> 
> 1. She took this position with no history in education, never a teacher.
> 2. She could not address fundamental questions about the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act during her confirmation. 3. She barely won confirmation. Despite 1.1 million letters and 80,000 phone calls from NEA supporters urging senators to vote no, the U.S. Senate confirms DeVos. Vice President Mike Pence casts the deciding vote which was the first time in the nation's history a vice president's vote was necessary to approve a cabinet nominee.
> ...


 Dear NJG, 
Thank you for this post. The topic of education is so important!

For continuity, here is an earlier snippet of the conservation, from back on page 29 of this thread:
1. NJG - BetsyDeVos is destroying public education - https://www.knittingparadise.com/t-612512-29.html#13959230
2. quatrefoilknits - data collection - https://www.knittingparadise.com/t-612512-29.html#13959762
3. RookieRetiree - conflict of interest (NEA) - https://www.knittingparadise.com/t-612512-29.html#13959798
4. IndigoSpinner - dismantle Department of Education - https://www.knittingparadise.com/t-612512-29.html#13959844
5. quatrefoilknite - US Constitution does not empower federal control of education - https://www.knittingparadise.com/t-612512-29.html#13959948
6. quatrefoilknits - NEA - https://www.knittingparadise.com/t-612512-29.html#13960053

There are three points I would like to emphasize:

1. "_if our children are hurt in the process, well that is just too bad_"
It is my firm belief that the collection, permanent storage, and dissemination of data on ALL students from preschool through college to job is the GREATEST harm to our children. Therefore I believe that slowing, decreasing, stopping, eliminating the longitudinal data collection is top priority.

2. "_8. The DeVos-led Education Department attempts to strip its employees of collective bargaining rights._" 
While I am not addressing the issue of bargaining rights per se in this post, I want to mention that the average public school teacher salary exceeds that of the average US worker, and issues of compensation directly impact adults, therefore this aspect of public education need not impact our children negatively.
Issues of safe working conditions for teachers and safe learning environment for students seem to be in peril in areas where teachers are instructed not remove a disruptive student from the classroom. These are just a few of the many links available regarding salary 
- US New and World Report - https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/high-school-teacher/salary
- average income in the US - https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/average-income-in-us-14852178
- US Dept of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Occupational Outlook Handbook (OOH) - https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm

3. The government has no money of it's own. 
It is entirely funded through taxes. 
It is spending more money than it collects through taxes. 
It cannot continue to operate with an increasing national debt forever. 
It must spend less and/or increase taxes. 
Eventually this may include decreasing government employee salaries and benefits to more closely resemble compensation paid to private sector employees, and decreasing government staffing to the lean amount of staffing required to run a similar enterprise in the private sector. This may mean fewer government positions, and smaller compensation packages going forward. It is not surprising that as the largest labor union, NEA would encourage its members to object to these changes.

A few thoughts on other points in the most recent post -

Often when an organization brings in a new leader or consultant who is tasked with analyzing and downsizing/rightsizing/eliminating/merging a facility/location/department, that leader/consultant has high-level outside knowledge, and is not necessarily someone who worked-their-way-up in the industry. For that type of day-to-day detail, others are relied upon.

It is my own personal belief that a great source of information about the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) is wrightslaw: https://www.wrightslaw.com/

Regarding restroom facilities, I understand that there is movement toward public spaces having three sets of facilities going forward, rather than two. This would include the two traditional biological sex facilities (girls/women, boys/men), and a third set of facilities which are open to use by anyone (some examples are a teacher restroom, or "family" facilities at malls, or the shared facilities common in Europe).

In regard to holding predatory for-profit colleges accountable, Executive Order 13864 of March 21, 2019 may be of interest; 
it calls for transparency in college costs and earnings by major: 
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2019/03/26/2019-05934/improving-free-inquiry-transparency-and-accountability-at-colleges-and-universities

:sm11:
Happy Knitting!


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## redbeatle (Jul 22, 2015)

A thank the lord I am Australian????????


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Dear NJG,
> Thank you for this post. The topic of education is so important!
> 
> For continuity, here is an earlier snippet of the conservation, from back on page 29 of this thread:
> ...


Despite the fact that your linear, verbose, condescending, anal-retentive attempt at conversation turns most of us off, I will address #3. If the tax system was fair (read wealthy pay fair share) there would be no need to cut anyone's salary, cut back on services, National Park maintenance or even raise taxes. The system is fixed to favor the people who can afford lobbyists. Our Senate, Congress and Executive are bought by these people and corporations. It's time the little folks get their money's worth.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

knovice knitter said:


> Despite the fact that your linear, verbose, condescending, anal-retentive attempt at conversation turns most of us off, I will address #3. If the tax system was fair (read wealthy pay fair share) there would be no need to cut anyone's salary, cut back on services, National Park maintenance or even raise taxes. The system is fixed to favor the people who can afford lobbyists. Our Senate, Congress and Executive are bought by these people and corporations. It's time the little folks get their money's worth.


LOL, despite your ad hominem attacks, I will respond and agree that there are loopholes in the IRS tax code which typically only the wealthy can utilize or exploit. In a perfect world, changes to the tax code would balance offsetting the burgeoning National Debt -and-maintaining incentives for entrepreneurs to take on the risks of expanding their businesses (creating jobs), investing in Research & Development, and creating charitable Foundations/Endowments.

Unfortunately, given the budgetary constraints which currently exist, it may not be sustainable to have a labor union of government employees (NEA teacher's union) demanding/obtaining higher salary/benefit compensation for the government employees than for their counterparts in the private sector.

May be of interest - 
Forbes has published a list of wealthiest Americans which is shared by wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Americans_by_net_worth


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

quatrefoilknits said:


> LOL, despite your ad hominem attacks, I will respond and agree that there are loopholes in the IRS tax code which typically only the wealthy can utilize or exploit. In a perfect world, changes to the tax code would balance offsetting the burgeoning National Debt -and-maintaining incentives for entrepreneurs to take on the risks of expanding their businesses (creating jobs), investing in Research & Development, and creating charitable Foundations/Endowments.
> 
> Unfortunately, given the budgetary constraints which currently exist, it may not be sustainable to have a labor union of government employees (NEA teacher's union) demanding/obtaining higher salary/benefit compensation for the government employees than for their counterparts in the private sector.
> 
> ...


I don't recall mentioning labor unions...only that the very wealthy do not pay a fair tax rate. If they did, we would not have shortages in our budget for services that are for all the people of this country. Seems there is always trillions available for the military. It also seems trump is anxious to try out all his new gadgets. There seems to be plenty of money to pay private companies to cage refugees, there's plenty of money for trips to Mar-a-lago ($3mil. every time). There's always money to bring a giant entourage of friends and family members on trips to cut deals for future trump hotels in other countries. Yet he cuts Nat'l Park services, Snap programs, threatening Social Security benefits. There's always money to put toward fossil fuel exploration which is a dying industry and a killing industry at the same time.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

knovice knitter said:


> I don't recall mentioning labor unions...


 Agreed. 
The largest US labor union, the public school teachers union (NEA) was being discussed in the education post addressed to NJG (https://www.knittingparadise.com/t-612512-42.html#13971831),
to which you chose to respond 
(https://www.knittingparadise.com/t-612512-42.html#14002286).


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

quatrefoilknits said:


> Agreed.
> The largest US labor union, the public school teachers union (NEA) was being discussed in the education post addressed to NJG (https://www.knittingparadise.com/t-612512-42.html#13971831),
> to which you chose to respond
> (https://www.knittingparadise.com/t-612512-42.html#14002286).


I told you your posts were off-putting. I don't read your links. I fall asleep just looking at the outline.


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## quatrefoilknits (Apr 12, 2016)

knovice knitter said:


> I told you your posts were off-putting. I don't read your links. I fall asleep just looking at the outline.


 If you find them off-putting and you fall asleep... and yet you choose to post replies, then you may be posting in your sleep?!

:sm16:


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