# Difference between Kfb and M1



## Florida Gal (Aug 25, 2011)

What would be the difference between Knit front and back (Kfb) and Make one (M1).
When doing toe up socks it calls to do a M1 L or R. Why can't I do Kfb? I do not like doing Make ones, especially with small needles. Im not picky about the lean left or lean right. I just want to increase. 

Thanks
Beth


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## Gerripho (Dec 7, 2013)

Kfb, by its nature, leaves a little purl bump on the front of the fabric. It's okay in some cases but I wouldn't want it on a sock where the surrounding fabric is all stockinette stitch. Also, the M1 L or R have a slant, either left or right, to their nature. Having the little column of slanted stitches to run along side the edge of the toe or gusset is quite attractive. Just my humble opinion.


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## past (Apr 3, 2011)

Knit front and back is knitting 2 stitches in one and can leave a bump that might be uncomfortable for feet. If you don't care about the leaning left and right when you work the make 1 insert your left needle from front to back under the bar between the 2 stitches then knit through the back loop of the lifted bar. This will automatically and easily twist the stitch. 
It's when you insert from back to front and then need to knit through the front of the stitch to create the twist that can be tricky, especially if you are a tight knitter. However there is a little trick that helps with this. Instead of picking up the stitch with your left needle pick it up with the right needle, front to back. Then insert your left needle into the raised bar with the left needle to the back of your right needle. Wrap your yarn and pull through the bar. Drop the bar from your right needle then transfer the stitch from the left to right needle. Works even with tight stitches. (I'm left handed and knit left handed so this is the way I always have worked the M1 increase.)


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## margoc (Jul 4, 2011)

Many people are changing how they kf&b. They knit through the front, go through the back as if to knit it (but don't) and slip the stitch to the right needle. This avoids the purl bump and achieves the desired result - 1 stitch increase


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## jinx (Feb 12, 2011)

KFB use a stitch. M1 is made between the stitches and does not use a stitch. Substituting one for the other makes a difference in how many stitches you need for that row. It can be done, but adjustments need to be made. For example if you K1 KFB you use 2 stitches. If you K1 M1 you use only one stitch.


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## Gerripho (Dec 7, 2013)

past said:


> It's when you insert from back to front and then need to knit through the front of the stitch to create the twist that can be tricky, especially if you are a tight knitter. However there is a little trick that helps with this.


There is another little trick that may help. For right handed knitters, you lift the bar with your right needle, entering from front to back, then slip the bar over to the left needle. So far, so good. Next, use the right needle to go into the bar from right to left (the bar is mounted backwards, btw) and using the point of the right needle, tug the front leg of the bar forward a bit. Use the index finger of your left hand to hold the bar so it doesn't spring back and then pull the right needle out and enter the loop as if to knit and complete the increase stitch. (I got this from Liat Gat but couldn't find the video where she shows how to do this. But all credit goes to her.)


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## Florida Gal (Aug 25, 2011)

margoc said:


> Many people are changing how they kf&b. They knit through the front, go through the back as if to knit it (but don't) and slip the stitch to the right needle. This avoids the purl bump and achieves the desired result - 1 stitch increase


Must try this. Sounds neat.


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## thegrape (Nov 11, 2011)

It also affects how the stitch looks when it is complete.


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## Florida Gal (Aug 25, 2011)

Florida Gal said:


> Must try this. Sounds neat.


It also affects how the stitch looks when it is complete.

Could this be used when increasing on the toe of a sock?


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## mattie cat (Jun 5, 2013)

Florida Gal said:


> It also affects how the stitch looks when it is complete.
> 
> Could this be used when increasing on the toe of a sock?


I just tried this increase on toe up socks and didn't like it. The slipped stitch was too loose. I will stick with the KFB even though it does create a purl bump.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

jinx said:


> KFB use a stitch. M1 is made between the stitches and does not use a stitch. Substituting one for the other makes a difference in how many stitches you need for that row. It can be done, but adjustments need to be made. For example if you K1 KFB you use 2 stitches. If you K1 M1 you use only one stitch.


We've had this discussion before. In *EVERY* knitting dictionary/encyclopedia I have seen KFB is described as a 1 stitch increase. I repeat: *A ONE STITCH INCREASE!!!!!!!!!* The difference between the two (M1 & KFB) is how they are made and the resulting appearance. Both will give you an increase of *only one stitch!!!!!* If you are going to substitute KFB for M1, you must do the round this way:

KFB, k until 1 stitch before last stitch, KFB, K1. This is to make the increases align properly. However, they will not look as good as the M1.


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## jinx (Feb 12, 2011)

Yes, they are a one stitch increase. I am saying to make a kfb you use a stitch and to make a M1 you do not use a stitch, the increase is made between the stitches.


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## silversurfer (Nov 25, 2013)

It's your sock. If you want to Kfb do so. There is no law that says you have to use the increase stated in the pattern.


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## RoxyCatlady (Mar 22, 2011)

StitchDesigner said:


> We've had this discussion before. In *EVERY* knitting dictionary/encyclopedia I have seen KFB is described as a 1 stitch increase. I repeat: *A ONE STITCH INCREASE!!!!!!!!!* The difference between the two (M1 & KFB) is how they are made and the resulting appearance. Both will give you an increase of *only one stitch!!!!!* If you are going to substitute KFB for M1, you must do the round this way:
> 
> KFB, k until 1 stitch before last stitch, KFB, K1. This is to make the increases align properly. However, they will not look as good as the M1.


You have four stitches on your needle.

You do a knit one, make one, knit three.
You do a knit one, knit front and back, and knit two.

That is the point that was being made -- that if the directions tell you to make one, and you substitute knit front and back, then you will need to remember to change, in your mind at least, the rest of the directions.

If the pattern says, K1, M1, knit till there is one stitch left, M1, K1 - and you follow word for word, but do the knit front and back, then your increase will be on the last stitch instead of immediately before it. So, you will need to adjust and knit till there are TWO stitches left, so you can use the second last stitch for the increase.

So, technically speaking, you are very correct in that they are both increases of one stitch. BUT they are do not behave the same way.

They also differ in appearance.


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## Toyknitter (Feb 5, 2011)

Like anything else, what increase technique you use, depends on what you want the final result to look like and feel like. I never liked M1, because it left a hole, but having learned not to lift the yarn and just knit through the bottom it's not as noticeable. For toys, I still like kfb better. Personal preference. For a garment, the small hole can be very attractive, adding dimension to the pattern.


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## cathbeasle (Jun 8, 2012)

It is mostly about personal preference. But if you are all about the detailing of a particular item then appearance matters. There is a difference in the results you will get.


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## Florida Gal (Aug 25, 2011)

Thanks to all for explaining this to me. I get it now.


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## Woodsywife (Mar 9, 2014)

Reading how to m1 has me baffled. Maybe I have been doing it wrong all these years. With the stitch on the left needle, insert needle into front, wrap your yarn and pull through (regular knit stitch) but you don't pull the stitch off left needle. So new stitch is now on right needle. Now insert needle into back of stitch on left needle, complete stitch and now original stitch is on right needle. No holes. No horizontal bars needed. I read this many years ago in a pattern. Been doing it this way forever. Very simple. Hope I explained it.


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## flightpath (May 4, 2014)

Sounds to me like a good description of kfb. You are kniting into the front and back of the same stitch. An m1, either left or right, involves making a new stitch using the bar between two stitches and is well described above. I wonder if some of the confusion stems from using the term "make one" to mean "increase one" versus the actual name for a type of increase stitch, "a make one right (or left)."

Oops. Meant this in response to Woodsywife's comment.


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## Lanafay (Feb 2, 2012)

I do a kfb on my socks and I don't have a bump that would bother. It's all in how you want to do it.


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## Florida Gal (Aug 25, 2011)

Lanafay said:


> I do a kfb on my socks and I don't have a bump that would bother. It's all in how you want to do it.


Its worth a try. After all the toe is inside the shoe so it is not seen. I can always try it and if I don't like it, then take it out.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

I don't understand how you have a hole after M1 and not after KFB. With M1 you twist the bar between 2 stitches, then knit into it. The stitches are naturally tightened together. With KFB you tightened only one stitch, but you insert a stitch between two stitches. That inserted stitch is floating in air and is pushing the two stitches apart.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

The genius at the LYS told me if you don't like M1, use KFB. My theory is that few people in the greater world will notice one way or another how you increase. Who examines that closely? Do what makes you comfortable.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Florida Gal said:


> What would be the difference between Knit front and back (Kfb) and Make one (M1).
> When doing toe up socks it calls to do a M1 L or R. Why can't I do Kfb? I do not like doing Make ones, especially with small needles. Im not picky about the lean left or lean right. I just want to increase.
> 
> Thanks
> Beth


That's the way I do my increasing on my toes. It's never bothered me. I wouldn't remember the M1L or M1R. I make a 4 stitch increase every other row. I like the little purl bump because then I know the next row is just knit.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

StitchDesigner said:


> I don't understand how you have a hole after M1 and not after KFB. With M1 you twist the bar between 2 stitches, then knit into it. The stitches are naturally tightened together. With KFB you tightened only one stitch, but you insert a stitch between two stitches. That inserted stitch is floating in air and is pushing the two stitches apart.


I tighten both stitches. I don't see where any stitch is pushing any other stitch. Can you be more specific?

Here's a picture of my KFB toes and my Fish Lips Kiss Heel thrown in just cuz.
http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-233796-1.html


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

You have made the bar between the stitches. There is only so much yarn. When you pull up the bar and use it to make a stitches there is not as much yarn to make the twist for M1 with. Plus, the space between the stitches is already established. Thus, the two pre-existing stitches must also take up some of the twisted stitch. Thus, they are "pushing" on the twisted stitch. I guess "pulling" would be a better way of putting it. They take up a lot of looseness, making any space made much smaller. 

The new stitch in KFB is made in the back part of a stitch. True, the stitch does tighten the stitch from the previous row, but it has no foundation attaching it to the next stitch from the previous row. It tends to make a slightly larger space than an M1. It also leaves a slightly larger bump than a M1.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> That's the way I do my increasing on my toes. It's never bothered me. I wouldn't remember the M1L or M1R. I make a 4 stitch increase every other row. I like the little purl bump because then I know the next row is just knit.


The "slant" from M1L or M1R is so slight as to be insignificant, IMHO. I just M1 and don't worry about the slant.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

StitchDesigner said:


> You have made the bar between the stitches. There is only so much yarn. When you pull up the bar and use it to make a stitches there is not as much yarn to make the twist for M1 with. Plus, the space between the stitches is already established. Thus, the two pre-existing stitches must also take up some of the twisted stitch. Thus, they are "pushing" on the twisted stitch. I guess "pulling" would be a better way of putting it. They take up a lot of looseness, making any space made much smaller.
> 
> The new stitch in KFB is made in the back part of a stitch. True, the stitch does tighten the stitch from the previous row, but it has no foundation attaching it to the next stitch from the previous row. It tends to make a slightly larger space than an M1. It also leaves a slightly larger bump than a M1.


Did you see my pics from the link I posted. I don't see any holes in my increase? Now if you do a yarn over there is a definite hole and no foundation for that stitch.

Where is the foundation for the M1. It's made with the bar on not a stitch at all like KFB.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

StitchDesigner said:


> The "slant" from M1L or M1R is so slight as to be insignificant, IMHO. I just M1 and don't worry about the slant.


Wouldn't that be like just always doing K2tog instead of doing SSK with K2tog?


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## baglady1104 (Apr 10, 2011)

margoc said:


> Many people are changing how they kf&b. They knit through the front, go through the back as if to knit it (but don't) and slip the stitch to the right needle. This avoids the purl bump and achieves the desired result - 1 stitch increase


I tried this on sock toe increases and like it a lot. It looks fine to me. There was no looseness in my slipped stitch, and it's a whole lot simpler and easier than M1L and M1R. I am going to use it. Thanks for the tip, Margoc.


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## Woodsywife (Mar 9, 2014)

flightpath said:


> Sounds to me like a good description of kfb. You are kniting into the front and back of the same stitch. An m1, either left or right, involves making a new stitch using the bar between two stitches and is well described above. I wonder if some of the confusion stems from using the term "make one" to mean "increase one" versus the actual name for a type of increase stitch, "a make one right (or left)."
> 
> Oops. Meant this in response to Woodsywife's comment.


In my case I guess I use m1 and kfb interchangeably. If pattern just states increase but not how that's what I do. Didn't know there was a difference. I learned something today. Thanks.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Wouldn't that be like just always doing K2tog instead of doing SSK with K2tog?


If you had done M1R & M1L you would know. The slants are not really there. One can be just as easily substituted for the other.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

StitchDesigner said:


> If you had done M1R & M1L you would know. The slants are not really there. One can be just as easily substituted for the other.


I have done them. I wouldn't do k2tog with k2tog right beside each other. I wouldn't look right. I'm doing a sweater right now and the SSK and the K2tog are beside each other on every other knit row. It wouldn't look right with either 2 SSK's together or 2 K2tog together. KWIM


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

Hello, you're talking lemons and I'm talking oranges. Of, course one does not do K2tog for a left leaning decrease or SSK for a right leaning decrease. We *were* discussing M1 and KFB. Obviously you have nothing to add to *that* discussion, so you find something else to get snarky about.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

StitchDesigner said:


> Hello, you're talking lemons and I'm talking oranges. Of, course one does not do K2tog for a left leaning decrease or SSK for a right leaning decrease. We *were* discussing M1 and KFB. Obviously you have nothing to add to *that* discussion, so you find something else to get snarky about.


I thought you said M1R and M1L weren't different. And now you do. Which is it. I was comparing SSK and K2tog in reference to M1R and M1L. One is a decrease and one is an increase. But each one in their category leaves a different look. KFB doesn't leave a different look at any given point of your work. If they looke the same, why give them different names and different ways to make them? N'est pas?


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## baglady1104 (Apr 10, 2011)

Winding Road, thanks for the link to Patty Joy's video. I am working on a pair of toe-up socks and not at all liking that the toes have corners and an odd shape. For my next pair, if I do another pair, I have made a note to myself to try Patty Joy's cast on and try to make the toes round. I like your heel, too. I ordered the FLK pattern but got bogged down in the prep instructions, decided it was too fussy and haven't actually tried the knitting part. Maybe I will take another look at it. Your socks are lovely, by the way, and look so comfy. Nice work.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

baglady1104 said:


> Winding Road, thanks for the link to Patty Joy's video. I am working on a pair of toe-up socks and not at all liking that the toes have corners and an odd shape. For my next pair, if I do another pair, I have made a note to myself to try Patty Joy's cast on and try to make the toes round. I like your heel, too. I ordered the FLK pattern but got bogged down in the prep instructions, decided it was too fussy and haven't actually tried the knitting part. Maybe I will take another look at it. Your socks are lovely, by the way, and look so comfy. Nice work.


Oh dear. Don't get bogged down on the FLKH. Just measure your sock on your foot. I have kinda of a high area around my heel so I start turning my heel when I'm 2 inches from the end of my foot and the top part of the sock fits right up to the hinge of my foot and ankle. I have a pair almost to that point and if you are not in too much of a hurry I will post a picture of my ugly foot ( no laughing allowed) with the sock on it to show you the fit I like, especially on the top of the foot.
As for the copious amount of wordiness Patty has initially, disregard most of that. I don't make a template for the very reasons I explained in the previous paragraph. Just follow the written instructions on page 9 or 10 and look closely at the pictures of the TSK and TSP. She also has a video of it but I've never watched it.

Now to the toes. Try casting on 10-12 stitches. That is your choice and increase ( I like KFB) every other row until the toe fits right up to the joint of your pinky toe and foot. That's the number of stitches you want for the rest of your sock. Unless......... you have fat ankles. LOL I use 72 on a #0 or #1.

Good luck, If you get stuck either PM me or come back here. I'll try to help you.


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## baglady1104 (Apr 10, 2011)

That's very kind of you, Winding Road. Thank you so much! I am just past the toe on my toe-up socks and want them both ready before I start on heels, so it will be awhile.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> I thought you said M1R and M1L weren't different. And now you do. Which is it. I was comparing SSK and K2tog in reference to M1R and M1L. One is a decrease and one is an increase. But each one in their category leaves a different look. KFB doesn't leave a different look at any given point of your work. If they looke the same, why give them different names and different ways to make them? N'est pas?


The difference, *if you had bothered to really READ my post,* is minimal. Enough so that many people just make one M1 or the other and don't worry about it.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

StitchDesigner said:


> The difference, *if you had bothered to really READ my post,* is minimal. Enough so that many people just make one M1 or the other and don't worry about it.


But they are different or why would the designer write them that way. Just like knitting the first stitch on straight piece of work. We all know to slip it but most designers don't tell ya that.

Oh BTW can you tell me how to type here in bold? Thanks.


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## RoxyCatlady (Mar 22, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> But they are different or why would the designer write them that way. Just like knitting the first stitch on straight piece of work. We all know to slip it but most designers don't tell ya that.
> 
> Oh BTW can you tell me how to type here in bold? Thanks.


If you do "quote reply" button to reply, you go to a fresh page, and on the left hand side is directions to do all sorts of things. To do bold, you use a [ b ][ / b ] with the words between the ] and [ that you want to make bold, like [ b ] hello [ / b ] but without spaces, thusly: *hello*


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> But they are different or why would the designer write them that way. Just like knitting the first stitch on straight piece of work. We all know to slip it but most designers don't tell ya that.
> 
> Oh BTW can you tell me how to type here in bold? Thanks.


You really don't like to read *all* of what I write, do you? I said the difference was slight. Small enough that it can be disregarded. Obviously, some designers don't agree. I can see where it could be visible on worsted and heavier yarn, but I've done it on socks and on something that fine, it's just not worth the extra effort for so small a return..


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

StitchDesigner said:


> You really don't like to read *all* of what I write, do you? I said the difference was slight. Small enough that it can be disregarded. Obviously, some designers don't agree. I can see where it could be visible on worsted and heavier yarn, but I've done it on socks and on something that fine, it's just not worth the extra effort for so small a return..


That's why I just do KFB. Easy.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

StitchDesigner said:


> We've had this discussion before. In *EVERY* knitting dictionary/encyclopedia I have seen KFB is described as a 1 stitch increase. I repeat: *A ONE STITCH INCREASE!!!!!!!!!* The difference between the two (M1 & KFB) is how they are made and the resulting appearance. Both will give you an increase of *only one stitch!!!!!* If you are going to substitute KFB for M1, you must do the round this way:
> 
> KFB, k until 1 stitch before last stitch, KFB, K1. This is to make the increases align properly. However, they will not look as good as the M1.


That is not how I do it. I knit to the last stitch and then KFB of that last stitch. I rarely do what I MUST.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Gerripho said:


> Kfb, by its nature, leaves a little purl bump on the front of the fabric. It's okay in some cases but I wouldn't want it on a sock where the surrounding fabric is all stockinette stitch. Also, the M1 L or R have a slant, either left or right, to their nature. Having the little column of slanted stitches to run along side the edge of the toe or gusset is quite attractive. Just my humble opinion.


With #1 or #0 the "purl" bump is hardly noticeable.


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