# Even the big names in fashion are doing it.



## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

After reading all the posts that related to the topic that had links to old mags I thought some of you may like to see the following.......

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-12-15/the-fair-isle-knitwear-made-by-mati-ventrillon-that-seduced-chanel

Not that I want to start another war, I just found the above interesting! :lol: :lol:


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## run4fittness (May 22, 2011)

Wow, thanks for the link.


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## Ann745 (Oct 29, 2012)

Very nice article.


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## alan55 (Aug 18, 2013)

I always wondered where the name fair isle came from in knitting.

Wonder if I can get away with charging $700 if I knitted a fair isle jumper on my LK150 or 329......think not!


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## Azzara (Jan 23, 2014)

... and she has a waiting list.
She knits with yarn spun from the fleece of her own sheep. Amazing.


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## JandiKnits (Sep 11, 2015)

Thank you for the link...terrific article...beautiful photos.


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## meknit (Dec 5, 2012)

Very informative and interesting/


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## mariel (Apr 25, 2011)

Loved this article. Could not have said it better.


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## Tessa28 (Sep 26, 2011)

Traditional fair isle Knitting was done by hand as when it started knitting machines were not invented. I was taught to do fair isle by my mother when I was 12 years old and that was over 57 years ago. Tessa28


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## Torticollus (Dec 3, 2011)

It looks like she does beautiful work. I guess you have to take into account that the sheep have to be fed and get vet care, etc. and to transport the wool and then dye it is all going to factor into the cost of the items. I suppose in the end it is the fact that genuine sheep wool that has been washed, carded, dyed and spun is what makes the sweater, whether done by hand or machine. Owning an item from her is like owning a piece of history.


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## malfrench (Apr 7, 2011)

Thanks for the interesting article.


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## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

Tessa28 said:


> Traditional fair isle Knitting was done by hand as when it started knitting machines were not invented. I was taught to do fair isle by my mother when I was 12 years old and that was over 57 years ago. Tessa28


You are right Tessa but what they are saying is that it isn't a true Fair Isle unless it is made there....whether it be on pins or by machine. In the same way as pasties can no longer be called "Cornish" if they weren't made in Cornwall.

The article also shows how big names are stealing small cottage industry designs and then launching them as their own.....which clearly they are not. 
There are other reports/articles on the net that show a photo of this young designer with the sweater she made. Alongside is a photo showing a guy on the Chanel catwalk that is wearing the same sweater in their last major fashion show!

This is the young designers Face book page. I hope I don't get into trouble sharing it!
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153290598088997&set=pcb.10153290600528997&type=3&theater

Click through the photos and you will see how her designs were used as their own. Although apparently now an agreement has been successfully reached between the two parties.


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## alan55 (Aug 18, 2013)

Tessa28 said:


> Traditional fair isle Knitting was done by hand as when it started knitting machines were not invented. I was taught to do fair isle by my mother when I was 12 years old and that was over 57 years ago. Tessa28


My knitting machine teacher years ago reckoned that technically our knitters aren't machines in the sense that they aren't powered but operated by hand.


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## Azzara (Jan 23, 2014)

alan55 said:


> My knitting machine teacher years ago reckoned that technically our knitters aren't machines in the sense that they aren't powered but operated by hand.


It becomes a machine when we put a motor on a knitting machine or use a g-carriage? 
Until then they are a tool?


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## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

alan55 said:


> My knitting machine teacher years ago reckoned that technically our knitters aren't machines in the sense that they aren't powered but operated by hand.


Good point, that teacher knew what she was talking about. :thumbup:

I hand knit/crochet for years, could follow any ones pattern, always had good results and found it easy/relaxing. 
I have machine knit for about 12 years, still find it a lot harder than hand knitting, make mistakes, make disasters, and am still learning something that is new to me every day.


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## Celt Knitter (Jul 13, 2011)

Love, love, love it! That would be my dream location and job.

I've just been listening to a Radio 4 broadcast.....the big trend on the catwalk is sweaters etc with lots of hand embroidery, especially monograms. The Royal School of Needlework has been swamped with demand for courses, and they have some great ones on offer at very reasonable prices.


susieknitter said:


> After reading all the posts that related to the topic that had links to old mags I thought some of you may like to see the following.......
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-12-15/the-fair-isle-knitwear-made-by-mati-ventrillon-that-seduced-chanel
> 
> Not that I want to start another war, I just found the above interesting! :lol: :lol:


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## GrammaAnn (Dec 16, 2011)

susieknitter said:


> Good point, that teacher knew what she was talking about. :thumbup:
> 
> I hand knit/crochet for years, could follow any ones pattern, always had good results and found it easy/relaxing.
> I have machine knit for about 12 years, still find it a lot harder than hand knitting, make mistakes, make disasters, and am still learning something that is new to me every day.


Sue, this was an interesting discussion/article! and I appreciated your honesty about knitting by machine. I thought I was the only one that still made horrendous mistakes and disasters that teach me every day. If I was not a determined person I would have given up on the machine years ago. :lol: :lol: Ann


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## Celt Knitter (Jul 13, 2011)

Ditto! Overcoming the limitations of a flat machine is far more challenging than a highly flexible set of fingers. Added to that are the vagaries of the machinery itself. It reminds me very much of computers and data input. You can add, manipulate and store far more than hand writing, but when disaster strikes, it is at a greater magnitude.


susieknitter said:


> Good point, that teacher knew what she was talking about. :thumbup:
> 
> I hand knit/crochet for years, could follow any ones pattern, always had good results and found it easy/relaxing.
> I have machine knit for about 12 years, still find it a lot harder than hand knitting, make mistakes, make disasters, and am still learning something that is new to me every day.


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## Gurney (Feb 17, 2012)

Fabulous photographs and an interesting article and follow-up discussion on KP. Mati has the same machine as I do but there the similarity ends!


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## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

GrammaAnn said:


> Sue, this was an interesting discussion/article! and I appreciated your honesty about knitting by machine. I thought I was the only one that still made horrendous mistakes and disasters that teach me every day. If I was not a determined person I would have given up on the machine years ago. :lol: :lol: Ann


Ann the sweater that I have just posted a pic of I am really pleased with. Dare I say the photo doesn't do it justice!

Having said this the pictured in my mind lace Shrug (that turned out more like a long line cardigan at the back and I don't know what at the front) that I did first for the clubs competition, before the sweater, was a definitely a "Yak" and is now sitting waiting to be unraveled.

Never using anyone else's written patterns with the said recommended yarn isn't easy! Finding a yarn that the sweaters lace pattern would knit in took me far longer than actually knitting the sweater! :lol: :lol:


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## Dianedanusia (Mar 13, 2012)

Thank you for sharing. So interesting


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## Bootheelknitter (Oct 2, 2011)

I would think that paying for shipping the raw wool to the mainland for processing isn't cheap. I had 3 Alpaca fleeces
processed last fall and it cost me $500. She probably factors in all the expenses in the final product. So, she doesn't make a big profit, especially that a garment takes her a month to knit. She didn't say that she used her knitting machines, and if she used the "cut and sew" method.


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## randiejg (Oct 29, 2011)

Thanks for posting the link. Her story is very inspiring. I can't imagine having to care for my own sheep, shear them, and either spin and dye the yarn myself, of have to send it off to someone else to do.

It's heartening to hear that she can command a very worthwhile price for her art. I think many a crafter dreams of being able to sustain themselves with the artistic products they make, but few are able to actually make it this far.

I've always explained my use of a knitting machine as a tool, similar to using a sewing machine, which allows me to execute my own expressions of the knitting art. I've many times had someone approach my table at a holiday craft fair, and make a comment suggesting that the machine does all the work, or using a machine is cheating. Well, don't get me started, because once I reply to them what I think about their uninformed viewpoint, their eyes widen, jaw drops, and they quickly scurry away.


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## dagmargrubaugh (May 10, 2011)

randiejg said:


> Thanks for posting the link. Her story is very inspiring. I can't imagine having to care for my own sheep, shear them, and either spin and dye the yarn myself, of have to send it off to someone else to do.
> 
> It's heartening to hear that she can command a very worthwhile price for her art. I think many a crafter dreams of being able to sustain themselves with the artistic products they make, but few are able to actually make it this far.
> 
> I've always explained my use of a knitting machine as a tool, similar to using a sewing machine, which allows me to execute my own expressions of the knitting art. I've many times had someone approach my table at a holiday craft fair, and make a comment suggesting that the machine does all the work, or using a machine is cheating. Well, don't get me started, because once I reply to them what I think about their uninformed viewpoint, their eyes widen, jaw drops, and they quickly scurry away.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: 
I've had the same thing happen to me when I was using an electronic spinning wheel.
It is harder to use than a conventional wheel. 
Saves my knees, though
:lol:


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## glassbird (Jul 18, 2013)

That was really interesting. Thank you.


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## sharronaw (Jul 12, 2013)

Thanks for sharing the article, very interesting.


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## Gillybee (Mar 27, 2015)

Fairisle went out of fasion after WW2. Then a programme called "Brideshead Revisited came on TV in the Eighties, and Sebastion was wearing a fairisle waist coat / vest. At the time I was producing and selling knitwear. With a punchcard machine they are quite easy. We bought a huge sack of shetland yarns and couldn't keep up with demand. The fashion lasted about a year. Interesting to see them back. A month to make a sweater? £700? Get the machines going ladies


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## seemyart (May 31, 2013)

I thought traditional meant hand knit. a machine knit sweater is a RELATIVELY quick and simple job. why does she charge so much? do her buyers know that they are machine knit?


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## Gillybee (Mar 27, 2015)

More money than sense?


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## Celt Knitter (Jul 13, 2011)

They are not mass produced, and the cost of that yarn would very high, plus the designing, finishing, machinery and the rest of the overheads. Check out Nieman Markus:http://www.neimanmarcus.com/en-gb/Sweaters/cat41160752_cat17740747_cat000001/c.cat Some of theirs are over 1000.00 GBP and they are mass produced, even though the quantity may be limited. Alice Starmore's kits are 100+ GBP, and then you have to knit it yourself. The Shetland ones are traditionally hand-knit, but knitting machines have been around since the 1500's.


seemyart said:


> I thought traditional meant hand knit. a machine knit sweater is a RELATIVELY quick and simple job. why does she charge so much? do her buyers know that they are machine knit?


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## dialknit (Oct 17, 2012)

Torticollus said:


> It looks like she does beautiful work. I guess you have to take into account that the sheep have to be fed and get vet care, etc. and to transport the wool and then dye it is all going to factor into the cost of the items. I suppose in the end it is the fact that genuine sheep wool that has been washed, carded, dyed and spun is what makes the sweater, whether done by hand or machine. Owning an item from her is like owning a piece of history.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Anouchic (May 14, 2014)

Jillyembo said:


> More money than sense?





seemyart said:


> I thought traditional meant hand knit. a machine knit sweater is a RELATIVELY quick and simple job. why does she charge so much? do her buyers know that they are machine knit?


 :thumbup:

I do not understand either why it takes a whole month to machine knit a sweater. I know most of us make mistakes on the machine, but If you're knitting similar things on a regular basis, it should go faster. So she is making $700 a month! ??? I also find factoring the "extra" things (taking care of her kids and helping her community) she has to do factored in her price ridiculous. It is all about attitude!

As far as Chanel using her design without credit is very wrong. But yes even the big names do it. This seems to happens a lot in fashion whether unintentionally, innocently, or maliciously. You see the same designs or almost the same by different names. You can't tell who's the actual designer. And with the internet it is more difficult to control.


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## alan55 (Aug 18, 2013)

GrammaAnn said:


> Sue, this was an interesting discussion/article! and I appreciated your honesty about knitting by machine. I thought I was the only one that still made horrendous mistakes and disasters that teach me every day. If I was not a determined person I would have given up on the machine years ago. :lol: :lol: Ann


You're not alone; I've made to many to count over the years.


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## Celt Knitter (Jul 13, 2011)

After reading her web site, I can see why the price is high. Each garment is individually tailored and designed for a customer. She makes an appointment for the first consultation. She does 3 swatches for customer approval, and some of the finishing is hand knitting: http://www.mativentrillon.co.uk/knitwear/bespoke


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## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

Although the following was shown on here some years ago I know some newer members of the forum may not have seen it. 
I decided to put it on the same topic because I thought it would be interesting for you to see how another designer works.

http://www.marthastewart.com/296830/karen-allen-handmade-sweaters


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## Celt Knitter (Jul 13, 2011)

Very interesting video, especially the cut and sew part, although I hate to see that because it cannot be repurposed other than felted for another project. I was very distracted by all those cones of beautiful yarn :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: It just goes to show that you can make a living if you are passionate about your craft, and quality oriented. I suppose some people will balk at the idea of the sweaters being "handmade," but these machines are not the industrial types for mass production.


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## Moondancermel (Nov 18, 2012)

Very interesting article, thanks.


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## knitteerli (Jun 3, 2015)

If I had that sort of money to spend, I'd want my Fairisle done by hand start to finish. I still love the machine knitted sweaters, but for real class, hand knit Aran, Guernsey, Fairisle. That is honouring the original crafters, too.


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## alan55 (Aug 18, 2013)

Celt Knitter said:


> especially the cut and sew part,


I was taught never ever do that for knitting......I had a very fussy teacher in regards to my knitting machine lessons.


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## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

alan55 said:


> I was taught never ever do that for knitting......I had a very fussy teacher in regards to my knitting machine lessons.


I am getting to like your teacher more and more! I hate cut and sew because in my head knitting is one craft and sewing is another. Obviously you have to sew knitwear up, but I see this as just making a piece of fabric to sew......if you can understand what I mean.


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## Azzara (Jan 23, 2014)

susieknitter said:


> I am getting to like your teacher more and more! I hate cut and sew because in my head knitting is one craft and sewing is another. Obviously you have to sew knitwear up, but I see this as just making a piece of fabric to sew......if you can understand what I mean.


Absolutely and I agree. They are two different crafts in my head too. My knitting machines and my sewing machines don't even live in the same room. (that might also have something to do with space...LOL)


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## Anouchic (May 14, 2014)

I just do not like cutting my knitting. Not to mention all that wasted yarn specially expensive ones.


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## suedenie (Nov 15, 2015)

Lovely knitter.


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## Bootheelknitter (Oct 2, 2011)

About her price, I expect getting her fibers processed on the mainland is quite pricey. I had 3 alpaca fleeces processed just into fibers ready spend not yarn on cones and it cost me $500. So, already, before she starts to knit she already has quite a bit of funds into her materials. I have knitting machine and incorporate handknitting with the machines. She possible is working on several sweaters at the same time on different machines. She definitely is an accomplished knitter.


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## aussieHC (Oct 21, 2013)

alan55 said:


> My knitting machine teacher years ago reckoned that technically our knitters aren't machines in the sense that they aren't powered but operated by hand.


Yes, it's interesting that there is a group that calls itself the 'hand spinners' group that uses spinning wheels, yet, if we use a hand operated knitting machine there are those that don't classify it as a craft since it isn't hand knitted. Our hand operated knitting machines are nothing like the industrial versions.


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## knitteerli (Jun 3, 2015)

I once had a snooty sales clerk sniff when I asked where the machine knits were at a crafts market. She told me they only had stalls for hand made projects. The place was bulging with machine sewn projects, power saw furniture and toys, power drum polished pebbles,etc. Machine knitting is certainly a craft, and even harder to master than hand knitting. But for a traditional Fairisle, I still prefer hand knitting, hand spinning, and, if possible done on a fair isle somewhere in Scotland.


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## cheridachat (Dec 25, 2011)

So happy for this talented young woman who is excelling at this traditional craft! And you can see in the photos that she is using a punchcard 700 model and an older sewing machine to achieve her success!


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## Azzara (Jan 23, 2014)

Most people don't understand what our machines are, how they work, what they can and can not do or how much operator input and skill is required. 
Computerized models, G carriages knitting baby blankets while the owner is in the kitchen and machine motors haven't helped.


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## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

Azzara I can understand what you are saying but even if you have an electronic machine, that is computerized, you still have to have a very good understanding of what yarn to use; what tension to use; whether the yarn will be suitable for the style/stitch pattern of the garment being knitted; knit a swatch and measure it correctly. This makes machine knitting far harder than hand knitting.
With hand knitting you can go into a yarn shop, buy the pattern, recommended yarn for the pattern, recommended pins/needles for the pattern, then follow the pattern that has been written for you by someone else.


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## Azzara (Jan 23, 2014)

That is exactly my point Suzie, people get a distorted view of our craft because we use 'machines' and then they underestimate the skills and knowledge required so they can't compare it to other crafts because of their own lack of knowledge. I agree that machine knitting is harder and more complex then hand knitting, many times over.


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## aussieHC (Oct 21, 2013)

susieknitter said:


> Azzara I can understand what you are saying but even if you have an electronic machine, that is computerized, you still have to have a very good understanding of what yarn to use; what tension to use; whether the yarn will be suitable for the style/stitch pattern of the garment being knitted; knit a swatch and measure it correctly. This makes machine knitting far harder than hand knitting.
> With hand knitting you can go into a yarn shop, buy the pattern, recommended yarn for the pattern, recommended pins/needles for the pattern, then follow the pattern that has been written for you by someone else.


Yes, you are so right - most hand knitters follow commercial patterns to the letter or make simple scarves, etc. The freedom of design capabilities of the knitting machine are what had me hooked when I found out about them in the 1980's, and I've never wanted to hand knit since. I too was a hand knitter - made my first cardigan when I was 10 and at one time thought I'd never want a knitting machine - boy, how wrong I was, but like other people, until I found out about the capabilities, I too was ignorant. I ate humble pie and joined the ranks of the addicted machine knitters :thumbup:


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## alan55 (Aug 18, 2013)

Azzara said:


> I agree that machine knitting is harder and more complex then hand knitting, many times over.


Especially on a basic knitter like an LK150 if you want to do more than just plain knitting. A lot of manual work setting needles for fair isle, lace work etc.


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## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

aussieHC said:


> Yes, you are so right - most hand knitters follow commercial patterns to the letter or make simple scarves, etc. The freedom of design capabilities of the knitting machine are what had me hooked when I found out about them in the 1980's, and I've never wanted to hand knit since. I too was a hand knitter - made my first cardigan when I was 10 and at one time thought I'd never want a knitting machine - boy, how wrong I was, but like other people, until I found out about the capabilities, I too was ignorant. I ate humble pie and joined the ranks of the addicted machine knitters :thumbup:


What you have said has described exactly how I was, I hand knit and crochet for years and years. One of those years my husband asked if I wanted a knitting machine for Christmas, I jumped down his throat shouting if I want to use a machine I will sew!
Years later I decided I did want a knitting machine and after buying my first I wished with all my heart that I had let him buy me one all those years before.
I too would never go back to hand knitting, I find it boring.


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## aussieHC (Oct 21, 2013)

Anouchic said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> I do not understand either why it takes a whole month to machine knit a sweater. I know most of us make mistakes on the machine, but If you're knitting similar things on a regular basis, it should go faster. So she is making $700 a month! ??? I also find factoring the "extra" things (taking care of her kids and helping her community) she has to do factored in her price ridiculous. It is all about attitude!
> 
> As far as Chanel using her design without credit is very wrong. But yes even the big names do it. This seems to happens a lot in fashion whether unintentionally, innocently, or maliciously. You see the same designs or almost the same by different names. You can't tell who's the actual designer. And with the internet it is more difficult to control.


Why do we undervalue our crafts so much. If she wanted a most basic wage she would need to earn $700 a week - that is a very basic minimum wage in Australia. I just had some plumbing work done this week and I was charged $150 an hour for the labour. I had my 10 needle embroidery machine serviced last year - a 3.5 hour job and they charged me $550! I said to my family that I'm obviously in the wrong field - I should be servicing these machines - not using them !!!!

Part of our problem is that everyone is now used to buying all of their clothes made in China, where labour can be as low as $400 per month. Clothing prices haven't changed since the 1980's but back then rents here were $50 - $80 per week and now they are $400 - minimum, in some places in Sydney rents are over $1200 a week - so are we expected to work for the same wages as the Chinese ?


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## Maryknits513 (Feb 12, 2011)

Anouchic said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> I do not understand either why it takes a whole month to machine knit a sweater. I know most of us make mistakes on the machine, but If you're knitting similar things on a regular basis, it should go faster. So she is making $700 a month! ??? I also find factoring the "extra" things (taking care of her kids and helping her community) she has to do factored in her price ridiculous. It is all about attitude!


The obvious answer is that it doesn't take a whole month. A lot of consumers think the more it costs, the harder it should be to make, and the longer it should take. They wouldn't pay that price if she told them to come back in two days to pick up their sweater.

As others have said, $700 is what she charges. After calculating all the actual costs, her profit is probably about half of that amount.


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## aussieHC (Oct 21, 2013)

Maryknits513 said:


> The obvious answer is that it doesn't take a whole month. A lot of consumers think the more it costs, the harder it should be to make, and the longer it should take. They wouldn't pay that price if she told them to come back in two days to pick up their sweater.
> 
> As others have said, $700 is what she charges. After calculating all the actual costs, her profit is probably about half of that amount.


Yes, that would be right, she is not exactly making a huge profit - no-one does who sells their own crafts. I'll probably be returning to the computer industry next year - so I can live comfortably again - don't know how much time I'll get for my crafting then, but I sure won't be earning $2 an hour in the computer industry which seems to be about what you'll get if you sell your crafts these days :thumbup:


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## Celt Knitter (Jul 13, 2011)

I think you over estimate her profits. She lives somewhere quite isolated with very few amenities. Having to send all her stuff to the mainland is very expensive, plus her living costs are very high on the islands because everything has to be shipped in. She also spends a lot of time consulting and swatching for her clients, and each piece is unique in pattern, colour and shape. She also says that part of her pricing is to sustain the craft in that very isolated community.


Maryknits513 said:


> The obvious answer is that it doesn't take a whole month. A lot of consumers think the more it costs, the harder it should be to make, and the longer it should take. They wouldn't pay that price if she told them to come back in two days to pick up their sweater.
> 
> As others have said, $700 is what she charges. After calculating all the actual costs, her profit is probably about half of that amount.


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