# Supreme Court - Gay marriage constitutional



## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

The US Supreme Court has decided in a split vote (5 to 4) gay marriage bans are unconstitutional. Equality of treatment for all citizens in the protections and benefits of marriage will be the law in all 50 states.


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## msusanc (Apr 5, 2011)

:thumbup:


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## missyern (Jan 23, 2011)

Wonderful


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## pamgillies1 (Aug 6, 2011)

Great news.


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## Loistec (Jan 25, 2011)

Yeaaa! Hallelujah! Equal rights for all! 

Too bad for religious bigots!

Another win for liberal democracy!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Marvelous, absolutely stunning. Well done U.S.A.


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## Ruddersrun (Aug 6, 2013)

Please let's keep politics off of this site.
Can we agree to just stitch?


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## eneurian (May 4, 2011)

it's about time. pulled kicking and screaming into the 20th century hopefully it will only be a few hundred more years for NHS and gender equality in income.
congratulations to all the newlyweds to be....


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## mopgenorth (Nov 20, 2011)

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## mopgenorth (Nov 20, 2011)

Ruddersrun said:


> Please let's keep politics off of this site.
> Can we agree to just stitch?


The topic is called "chit chat (nonknitting). I look forward to reading and understanding what is going on outside of my little knitting world. Interacting with others is what makes the world go round.

If you choose to limit your viewing pleasure to knitting subjects only, it's easy to opt out from this category - or you can just simply ignore it and not engage.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

It's about time!


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## One of His (Jan 10, 2015)

I couldn't agree more! Religious bigots??? Read the Bible!


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## Janpeonys (Jan 20, 2015)

I am glad no nosy people tell me who my knitting friends can be. Let people alone . yay for people to live how they want.


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## jkirby1228 (Feb 22, 2013)

I agree that this is not the site for politics. Lets knit and crochet without getting the government involved.


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## mopgenorth (Nov 20, 2011)

jkirby1228 said:


> I agree that this is not the site for politics. Lets knit and crochet without getting the government involved.


The topic is called "chit chat (nonknitting). It was created due to the large number of people who wanted to discuss issues of importance that had nothing to do with crafting. Based on the number of daily threads and number of posters, objectors to non-knitting themes are way outnumbered. If you choose to limit your viewing pleasure to knitting subjects only, it's easy to opt out from this category - or you can just simply ignore it and not engage and move on to a subject you will enjoy.


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## eneurian (May 4, 2011)

Ruddersrun said:


> Please let's keep politics off of this site.
> Can we agree to just stitch?


this thread is general chit chat for non stitch thoughts and concerns. don't read it if you don't want to know!


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## martina (Jun 24, 2012)

Same sex marriage is legal in England since March 2014. I am pleased to learn that it is now legal in the U. S.


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## sandj (May 16, 2012)

martina said:


> Same sex marriage is legal in England since March 2014. I am pleased to learn that it is now legal in the U. S.


Thanks Marina.


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## LindaH (Feb 1, 2011)

I am glad to hear it!


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## Marienkaeferoma (Mar 29, 2012)

eneurian said:


> it's about time. pulled kicking and screaming into the 20th century hopefully it will only be a few hundred more years for NHS and gender equality in income.
> congratulations to all the newlyweds to be....


Back when I was young, NHS stood for National Honor Society. I don't think that's what you mean. Lol

What is it now?


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## martina (Jun 24, 2012)

Marienkaeferoma said:


> Back when I was young, NHS stood for National Honor Society. I don't think that's what you mean. Lol
> 
> What is it now?


Perhaps the poster means National Health Service that we have in UK?


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

For those who consider gay marriage to be a solely political issue, perhaps one day you will come to a broader understanding of the issue. 
It is about loving and living with someone for 50+ years and in the final days of your lover's life being denied the right to visit him/her in the hospital because you are not "family". Then being denied access to the funeral and even knowledge of the gravesite location. 
In a divorce, it is being denied custody and visitation rights to your children because you are gay, not because you are a poor parent. 
Strong, healthy families, where children are loved and lovingly guided to become self confident adults, lead to a strong, healthy society. Parental gender or sexual orientation does not qualify or disqualify a person to be a parent. Positive self-image, patience, emotional control, a willingness to sacrifice personal gain for the benefit of another are traits needed to be a good parent. Traits found in females and males, traits found in heterosexuals and homosexuals.


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## Dizzy Liz (Feb 5, 2013)

I believe everyone has a right to their own happiness. It does not make me a bigot if I believe in the biblical definition of marriage. It is my right to have the happiness in being married to a man. Those who are not willing to call diversity what it is are the real bigots.


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## krestiekrew (Aug 24, 2012)

My outlook a/k/a IMHO, we are all human beings, we come in all shapes, sizes, colors, races. Everyone was created equal and ....yep, I AM gonna say it, the Bible says 'judge not lest ye be judged'. So no one should be judged by another human,no I am not in any way referring to court trials and convicting criminals so don't try to twist this. I could stay on this soap box forever but...so please be a good human and just accept other peeps as they are please.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Ruddersrun said:


> Please let's keep politics off of this site.
> Can we agree to just stitch?


Talking about religion, politics, and other controversial issues is not against the rules of this forum. If you don't wish to deal with it, simply don't read posts that have titles indicating that they are religious or political in nature. There is no rule requiring that everyone read every post or participate in every post, so I don't understand why you think it's a problem.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

Dizzy Liz said:


> I believe everyone has a right to their own happiness. It does not make me a bigot if I believe in the biblical definition of marriage. It is my right to have the happiness in being married to a man. Those who are not willing to call diversity what it is are the real bigots.


Dizzy
Taking away your right to be married to a man would be wrong. May your marriage be a long and happy one.

Proponents of gay marriage do not want to force heterosexuals into same sex marriages. I have no clue how that utterly stupid rumor about making heterosexual marriage illegal came into being or why any person would believe it.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

mojave said:


> For those who consider gay marriage to be a solely political issue, perhaps one day you will come to a broader understanding of the issue.
> It is about loving and living with someone for 50+ years and in the final days of your lover's life being denied the right to visit him/her in the hospital because you are not "family". Then being denied access to the funeral and even knowledge of the gravesite location.
> In a divorce, it is being denied custody and visitation rights to your children because you are gay, not because you are a poor parent.
> Strong, healthy families, where children are loved and lovingly guided to become self confident adults, leads to a strong, health society. Parental gender or sexual orientation does not qualify or disqualify a person to be a parent. Positive self-image, patience, emotional control, a willingness to sacrifice personal gain for the benefit of another are traits needed to be a good parent. Traits found in females and males, traits found in heterosexuals and homosexuals.


Thank you, mojave. It came 19 years too late for my son and his partner, both of whom died of AIDS and both of whom I loved dearly. This makes me so happy for those now who will not have to go through what they did, but will be able to live the life of their dreams--legally.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

My pleasure, SAMkewal. If there is life after this plane of existence, hope your son and his partner are doing a happy dance in celebration of the Supreme Court decision.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

mojave said:


> Dizzy
> Taking away your right to be married to a man would be wrong. May your marriage be a long and happy one.
> 
> Proponents of gay marriage do not want to force heterosexuals into same sex marriages. I have no clue how that utterly stupid rumor about making heterosexual marriage illegal came into being or why any person would believe it.


Fear of the unknown has always engendered irrational reaction. I can remember when most people recoiled from Down Syndrome children, or people with other "differences" from the "norm." None of that makes sense to me.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

mojave said:


> My pleasure, SAMkewal. If there is life after this plane of existence, hope your son and his partner are doing a happy dance in celebration of the Supreme Court decision.


I was going to add to my post that IF they are somewhere knowing what is going on here, they are thrilled, but I thought perhaps I had upset the apple cart here enough for one day ;~).


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## user102348 (Oct 5, 2013)

Dizzy Liz said:


> I believe everyone has a right to their own happiness. It does not make me a bigot if I believe in the biblical definition of marriage. It is my right to have the happiness in being married to a man. Those who are not willing to call diversity what it is are the real bigots.


Thanks DizLiz. I am a Bible believer and I really love being married to my man, too.

Scott In New Hampshire


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## tatsfieldknitter (Jul 20, 2011)

Ruddersrun said:


> Please let's keep politics off of this site.
> Can we agree to just stitch?


You can ignore the chit-chat posts - BUT just think how many interesting points of view from all around the world you would miss - AND all of the words of wisdom and funnies from SL, Rafiki et al. I check out ALL of the post - clicking on the ones I think would be of interest to me. ps all our lives are coloured in some way by politics, you can't ignore it.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Wonderful news!


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## Medieval Reenactor (Sep 3, 2013)

Yippeeeeee! DW and I are going out to dinner tonight - with Champagne!!!!!!! Even though we have been allowed to be married here in Connecticut since 2009, we've had to be careful which states we travel in or can accept jobs.

By the way, mopgenorth, I love your avatar.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

Scott In New Hampshire USA said:


> Thanks DizLiz. I am a Bible believer and I really love being married to my man, too.
> 
> Scott In New Hampshire


Best wishes for a long and happy marriage, Scott.


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## Medieval Reenactor (Sep 3, 2013)

jkirby1228 said:


> I agree that this is not the site for politics. Lets knit and crochet without getting the government involved.


Just out of curiosity, why did you open this clearly marked topic?


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## trish2222 (May 13, 2012)

martina said:


> Same sex marriage is legal in England since March 2014. I am pleased to learn that it is now legal in the U. S.


Also Wales, and Scotland later (December 14).

Congratulations USA :thumbup:


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## martina (Jun 24, 2012)

trish2222 said:


> Also Wales, and Scotland later (December 14).
> 
> Congratulations USA :thumbup:


I wasn't sure about the dates for Wales and Scotland or Northern Ireland. So good for them too.


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## trish2222 (May 13, 2012)

martina said:


> I wasn't sure about the dates for Wales and Scotland or Northern Ireland. So good for them too.


Not in N. Ireland I don't think.


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## COgramma (Aug 9, 2014)

mojave said:


> For those who consider gay marriage to be a solely political issue, perhaps one day you will come to a broader understanding of the issue.
> It is about loving and living with someone for 50+ years and in the final days of your lover's life being denied the right to visit him/her in the hospital because you are not "family". Then being denied access to the funeral and even knowledge of the gravesite location.
> In a divorce, it is being denied custody and visitation rights to your children because you are gay, not because you are a poor parent.
> Strong, healthy families, where children are loved and lovingly guided to become self confident adults, lead to a strong, healthy society. Parental gender or sexual orientation does not qualify or disqualify a person to be a parent. Positive self-image, patience, emotional control, a willingness to sacrifice personal gain for the benefit of another are traits needed to be a good parent. Traits found in females and males, traits found in heterosexuals and homosexuals.


Well said, Mojave. 
:thumbup:


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## jmf6406 (Dec 13, 2012)

This is good news! A few years ago I was on the fence about gay marriage. I have several gay acquaintances and never had any problem with accepting their lifestyle, but was not sure about the marriage part. Until I saw a gay couple interviewed on TV and one of them said, "Marriage is not for the good times--we can just live together for those. Marriage is for the bad times--when your partner is ill or dying or in need." That clinched it for me. He was right. That IS what marriage is about: Sticking together through the good AND the bad times.


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## jersgran (Mar 19, 2012)

I think the title of the thread was helpful to choose what we want to read. Don't like? Don't read. Keep life simple.


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## CaroleD53 (Aug 7, 2012)

There will be many celebrating tonight in the U.S.


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## st1tch (Dec 13, 2011)

I didn't know the U.S hadn't made it legal a long time ago, I just assumed we did it because you had. Even Ireland legalised it a few weeks ago, I never thought they would ever agree to anything like that.


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## cathy47 (Jun 6, 2011)

Marienkaeferoma said:


> Back when I was young, NHS stood for National Honor Society. I don't think that's what you mean. Lol
> 
> What is it now?


What ya mean I remember back in the day the word "gay" ment happy.. now it implies sexual preference wish they'd change that..


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## krestiekrew (Aug 24, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> I was going to add to my post that IF they are somewhere knowing what is going on here, they are thrilled, but I thought perhaps I had upset the apple cart here enough for one day ;~).


Probably not any more than I did...speak freely, that is what it's all about.


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## Medieval Reenactor (Sep 3, 2013)

In case folks have not heard the "official" proclamation, here is a copy.


No union is more profound than marriage, for it embodies the highest ideals of love, fidelity, devotion, sacrifice and family. In forming a marital union, two people become something greater than once they were. As some of the petitioners in these cases demonstrate, marriage embodies a love that may endure even past death. It would misunderstand these men and women to say they disrespect the idea of marriage. Their plea is that they do respect it, respect it so deeply that they seek to find its fulfillment for themselves. Their hope is not to be condemned to live in loneliness, excluded from one of civilizations oldest institutions. They ask for equal dignity in the eyes of the law. The constitution grants them that right. The judgment of the Court of Appeals for the Six Circuit is reversed.

It is so ordered.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Ruddersrun said:


> Please let's keep politics off of this site.
> Can we agree to just stitch?


I think we have gay knitters on the site. They should not be able to talk about projects for FAMILY? Not to mention that this particular area doesn't HAVE to only be about yarn.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

martina said:


> Same sex marriage is legal in England since March 2014. I am pleased to learn that it is now legal in the U. S.


Been legal in the Netherlands since 2002. Our niece and her wife are lucky to live there.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> I think we have gay knitters on the site. They should not be able to talk about projects for FAMILY? Not to mention that this particular area doesn't HAVE to only be about yarn.


We do have some self-identified GLBT knitters on this site, and some who do not self-identify because they always are amongst us, whoever we are and wherever we are. More power to them, and now, more joy to them. I wish we could all have a big celebration party together.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

mojave said:


> It is about loving and living with someone for 50+ years and in the final days of your lover's life being denied the right to visit him/her in the hospital because you are not "family". Then being denied access to the funeral and even knowledge of the gravesite location.
> .


A similar thing happened in my family. A cousin was in a relationship with another woman for many years and when she passed away, my cousin was totally left out of all medical decisions and final arrangements. My cousin knew exactly what her partner wanted and told the family who ignored all wishes. I have never forgotten the hurt my cousin went through over that. It was truly an eye opener.

It's about time same sex marriage was made legal in America.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Just saw a story on FaceBook about one of the first marriages in Texas. One man is 82 the other is 85. They've been together for 54 years. Can you imagine being with someone for 54 years and being told that only NOW can your relationship be considered 'legal'?


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> A similar thing happened in my family. A cousin was in a relationship with another woman for many years and when she passed away, my cousin was totally left out of all medical decisions and final arrangements. My cousin knew exactly what her partner wanted and told the family who ignored all wishes. I have never forgotten the hurt my cousin went through over that. It was truly an eye opener.
> 
> It's about time same sex marriage was made legal in America.


My eyes were opened through the viewed experience of two senior faculty members at my first post-doc university. Both were shunned by their respective families for religious reasons, found acceptance in each other and academia. Those ladies were a self-appointed welcoming and get 'er sorted committee for all new faculty and post docs. Got a toddler with diarrhea and its 3 A.M, used the last diaper and now grabbing the dish towels? Call those ladies and they would deliver a box of diapers. 
When S was dying of breast cancer, her family declared it was divine retribution and denied K the right to visit S. K learned of S's death from the obits and K's health rapidly declined afterwards. We attended K's funeral 7 months later and we all thought she died of a broken heart.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

mojave said:


> My eyes were opened through the viewed experience of two senior faculty members at my first post-doc university. Both were shunned by their respective families for religious reasons, found acceptance in each other and academia. Those ladies were a self-appointed welcoming and get 'er sorted committee for all new faculty and post docs. Got a toddler with diarrhea and its 3 A.M, used the last diaper and now grabbing the dish towels? Call those ladies and they would deliver a box of diapers.
> When S was dying of breast cancer, her family declared it was divine retribution and denied K the right to visit S. K learned of S's death from the obits and K's health rapidly declined afterwards. We attended K's funeral 7 months later and we all thought she died of a broken heart.


What a sad story. I think you're exactly right in your thinking.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

I'd like to add my congratulations to the USA and everyone who is and will be affected by this landmark.


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## Shannon123 (Mar 9, 2012)

Medieval Reenactor said:


> In case folks have not heard the "official" proclamation, here is a copy.
> 
> No union is more profound than marriage, for it embodies the highest ideals of love, fidelity, devotion, sacrifice and family. In forming a marital union, two people become something greater than once they were. As some of the petitioners in these cases demonstrate, marriage embodies a love that may endure even past death. It would misunderstand these men and women to say they disrespect the idea of marriage. Their plea is that they do respect it, respect it so deeply that they seek to find its fulfillment for themselves. Their hope is not to be condemned to live in loneliness, excluded from one of civilizations oldest institutions. They ask for equal dignity in the eyes of the law. The constitution grants them that right. The judgment of the Court of Appeals for the Six Circuit is reversed.
> 
> It is so ordered.


It is about time. Younger and future generations will look at these years and this ruling and all of the controversy and wonder what all of the fuss was about.

Wishing happiness to all unions. Marriage is wonderful and difficult at times but everyone should be entitled to choose how their partnership is recognized.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> I'd like to add my congratulations to the USA and everyone who is and will be affected by this landmark.


Thank you to you and all those who have offered their congratulations and good wishes.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> A similar thing happened in my family. A cousin was in a relationship with another woman for many years and when she passed away, my cousin was totally left out of all medical decisions and final arrangements. My cousin knew exactly what her partner wanted and told the family who ignored all wishes. I have never forgotten the hurt my cousin went through over that. It was truly an eye opener.
> 
> It's about time same sex marriage was made legal in America.


I have a Gay nephew, he and Brian were married in Ontario two years ago. You will never meet a nicer pair. they are so happy, and contribute to their neighbourhood, family, and are very very highly thought of. Congratulations.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I agree l00% Solo.
==========================================================================

IMPORTANT NEWS:!!!!
THE POLICE HAVE SHOT RICHARD MATT AND

and they are chasing after the other ESCAPED prisoner.

It appears that they were close to the Canadian border and trying to cross into Canada.

That must be a great relief for the police and people living in the area.

============================================================================


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

SAMkewel

Would you mind if I hand over this thread to you for monitoring? I'll be offline for a few days courtesy of more surgery.


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## Loistec (Jan 25, 2011)

.


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## bane (Nov 27, 2012)

mojave said:


> For those who consider gay marriage to be a solely political issue, perhaps one day you will come to a broader understanding of the issue.
> It is about loving and living with someone for 50+ years and in the final days of your lover's life being denied the right to visit him/her in the hospital because you are not "family". Then being denied access to the funeral and even knowledge of the gravesite location.
> In a divorce, it is being denied custody and visitation rights to your children because you are gay, not because you are a poor parent.
> Strong, healthy families, where children are loved and lovingly guided to become self confident adults, lead to a strong, healthy society. Parental gender or sexual orientation does not qualify or disqualify a person to be a parent. Positive self-image, patience, emotional control, a willingness to sacrifice personal gain for the benefit of another are traits needed to be a good parent. Traits found in females and males, traits found in heterosexuals and homosexuals.


Very well explained. Good luck and best wishes to all those who can now get married. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## bundyanne07 (Aug 24, 2014)

Yes, I heard that on our early morning news.


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## maggie20736 (Jun 9, 2015)

I think the Supreme Court got it right!! I don't care if people marry their dog or cat or llama, whatever makes everyone happy!


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## Marienkaeferoma (Mar 29, 2012)

martina said:


> Perhaps the poster means National Health Service that we have in UK?


Thanks.


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

It was the first thing I saw on the news today when I got up. It is a wonderful way to start the day.
Minnesota has had equality in marriage since August 1st 2013. After 19 years of togetherness we finally made it legal on Sept 21, 2013 and have not regretted it. We are both thrilled that the rest of the same sex couples are now able to get married. It is something that should have happened long before today.


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

maggie20736 said:


> I think the Supreme Court got it right!! I don't care if people marry their dog or cat or llama, whatever makes everyone happy!


I don't think we will ever see the day when people will be able to marry animals.


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## user64822 (Jun 21, 2012)

mojave said:


> For those who consider gay marriage to be a solely political issue, perhaps one day you will come to a broader understanding of the issue.
> It is about loving and living with someone for 50+ years and in the final days of your lover's life being denied the right to visit him/her in the hospital because you are not "family". Then being denied access to the funeral and even knowledge of the gravesite location.
> In a divorce, it is being denied custody and visitation rights to your children because you are gay, not because you are a poor parent.
> Strong, healthy families, where children are loved and lovingly guided to become self confident adults, lead to a strong, healthy society. Parental gender or sexual orientation does not qualify or disqualify a person to be a parent. Positive self-image, patience, emotional control, a willingness to sacrifice personal gain for the benefit of another are traits needed to be a good parent. Traits found in females and males, traits found in heterosexuals and homosexuals.


Absolutely agree....and this is a very well expressed reply.


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## user64822 (Jun 21, 2012)

brucew said:


> It was the first thing I saw on the news today when I got up. It is a wonderful way to start the day.
> Minnesota has had equality in marriage since August 1st 2013. After 19 years of togetherness we finally made it legal on Sept 21, 2013 and have not regretted it. We are both thrilled that the rest of the same sex couples are now able to get married. It is something that should have happened long before today.


Belated congratulations to you both!


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## carrad47 (Nov 29, 2012)

mopgenorth said:


> The topic is called "chit chat (nonknitting). I look forward to reading and understanding what is going on outside of my little knitting world. Interacting with others is what makes the world go round.
> 
> If you choose to limit your viewing pleasure to knitting subjects only, it's easy to opt out from this category - or you can just simply ignore it and not engage.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

brucew said:


> I don't think we will ever see the day when people will be able to marry animals.


I don't know about that. I was married to one for a while. (A short while)


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## mirium (May 14, 2013)

I'd like to extend a gentle hand of friendship to all KPers who are appalled by this court decision. I disagree with you; but I respect the sincerity of your beliefs, and the strength of your fears. Perhaps it would be comforting to reflect on your own marriage and make extra efforts to strengthen it -- "counting your blessings" never hurts, no matter who you are and what those blessings are. :thumbup:

I also gently suggest that you consider that passages from any Scripture can be interpreted in more than one way. For example:


> Psalms 133:1 Behold, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity!


Personally, I interpret that as a general encouragement to "try to work out your differences." Sounds like good advice to me, and I try to do my part by seeing things from the other person's point of view. 


> Acts 10:28 And he said to them, You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.


...or a bigot. Things are going to be pretty prickly for a while, but I hope we all try to see things through the other person's eyes -- ESPECIALLY if we disagree. No matter what, we're all KPers together!


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## SanDK7206 (Jun 3, 2015)

mopgenorth said:


> The topic is called "chit chat (nonknitting). It was created due to the large number of people who wanted to discuss issues of importance that had nothing to do with crafting. Based on the number of daily threads and number of posters, objectors to non-knitting themes are way outnumbered. If you choose to limit your viewing pleasure to knitting subjects only, it's easy to opt out from this category - or you can just simply ignore it and not engage and move on to a subject you will enjoy.


Couldn't agree with you more...SCOTUS is on a role this year! First they upheld the Fair Housing law, then the ACA, and now -- FINALLY -- the final 10% of Americans will be treated equally under the law! Hats off to the Justices!

P.S. I'd love to read any opposing arguments that are not religion-based; that's what discourse is all about: logic, reason, facts...


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## SanDK7206 (Jun 3, 2015)

jbandsma said:


> I don't know about that. I was married to one for a while. (A short while)


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :lol: :lol: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## grandmann (Feb 4, 2011)

The law of the Country gays can become married which is Good. It is up to the Churches if the gays want their marriages Blessed. I don't think the Catholic Church will ever allow a gay marriage because in the Church this is a Sacrament of Matrimony.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

SanDK said:


> Couldn't agree with you more...SCOTUS is on a role this year! First they upheld the Fair Housing law, then the ACA, and now -- FINALLY -- the final 10% of Americans will be treated equally under the law! Hats off to the Justices!
> 
> P.S. I'd love to read any opposing arguments that are not religion-based; that's what discourse is all about: logic, reason, facts...


While all people can now be married in every state, LGBT people can still be FIRED for being gay...legally...in 29 states. In fact, in those 29 states you can be fired if your boss even THINKS you are gay. We really need to get that cleaned up before we celebrate too hard.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

mojave said:


> SAMkewel
> 
> Would you mind if I hand over this thread to you for monitoring? I'll be offline for a few days courtesy of more surgery.


I wouldn't mind at all. Best wishes for the best surgery outcome.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> I don't know about that. I was married to one for a while. (A short while)


We don't always make wise choices, and sometimes we are deceived. Then we fix it best we can, eh?


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> While all people can now be married in every state, LGBT people can still be FIRED for being gay...legally...in 29 states. In fact, in those 29 states you can be fired if your boss even THINKS you are gay. We really need to get that cleaned up before we celebrate too hard.


Yes, and I live in one of those states where people have been fired for being suspected of being gay. Proof is not required. After his US Navy service, my son returned to this area, went to work, was reported to his boss as being gay by someone else who was also gay, was fired, and left this area. I can't begin to recount all the bitter experiences we both suffered because of these types of attitudes.


----------



## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> I wouldn't mind at all. Best wishes for the best surgery outcome.


Thank you.

To access some of our field sites we were hiking over saturated slopes. The trail gave way under me resulting in a rapid slide downhill, fractured a tibia and ankle.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

mojave said:


> Thank you.
> 
> To access some of our field sites we were hiking over saturated slopes. The trail gave way under me resulting in a rapid slide downhill, fractured a tibia and ankle.


Double ouch. It seems as if many of us have similar episodes in our lives, usually when we least expect it. I'm sorry this happened to you. My last accident left me with a lingering feeling of not having the best control of my life, even though the only thing I did was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. An accident like your would tend to make you a believer in climate change given the heavy rains in the wrong places and droughts where heavy rains are needed. I wish we had an answer.....


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

It's great news!!!


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

On time for Pride Month. The Pride parade here in SF will be excitement plus!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

brucew said:


> It was the first thing I saw on the news today when I got up. It is a wonderful way to start the day.
> Minnesota has had equality in marriage since August 1st 2013. After 19 years of togetherness we finally made it legal on Sept 21, 2013 and have not regretted it. We are both thrilled that the rest of the same sex couples are now able to get married. It is something that should have happened long before today.


Congratulations, Bruce. I wish you well and I am glad you were able to marry. I have been married to the man I love for 60 years. I am so pleased today that a marriage like mine is now possible, (and probable) for those who are same sex couples. I wish you all well. I Pray that many of you reach many many years of happiness. It will also make a huge difference in your legal situations too. Yeah!! Shirley


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

brucew said:


> I don't think we will ever see the day when people will be able to marry animals.


This is a wonderful day when people who have not been allowed to marry now can, all over your Country. It has nothing to do with animals. once again Congratulations!!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> I don't know about that. I was married to one for a while. (A short while)


chuckle-! yes I guess it seems like it sometimes.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

mirium said:


> I'd like to extend a gentle hand of friendship to all KPers who are appalled by this court decision. I disagree with you; but I respect the sincerity of your beliefs, and the strength of your fears. Perhaps it would be comforting to reflect on your own marriage and make extra efforts to strengthen it -- "counting your blessings" never hurts, no matter who you are and what those blessings are. :thumbup:
> 
> I also gently suggest that you consider that passages from any Scripture can be interpreted in more than one way. For example:
> ...or a bigot. Things are going to be pretty prickly for a while, but I hope we all try to see things through the other person's eyes -- ESPECIALLY if we disagree. No matter what, we're all KPers together!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> While all people can now be married in every state, LGBT people can still be FIRED for being gay...legally...in 29 states. In fact, in those 29 states you can be fired if your boss even THINKS you are gay. We really need to get that cleaned up before we celebrate too hard.


I hope that is attended to asap. Maybe we should watch and see that it is. If not letters and messages to those who can change it should be sent.


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## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

Wonderful news!


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

It's years overdue! :thumbup: :-D


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Congrats to all our GLBT friends on KP. This Sunday should be a very special day. Bravi!


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

trish2222 said:


> Also Wales, and Scotland later (December 14).
> 
> Congratulations USA :thumbup:


I wonder if Tony Abbott is watching and I wonder if he will allow the coalition parties a free vote when the debate comes before the Parliament later in the year. Hopefully Australia will follow suit soon.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

cathy47 said:


> What ya mean I remember back in the day the word "gay" ment happy.. now it implies sexual preference wish they'd change that..


Surely you do not want to go back to the old terms? The 'q' word, the 'p' word, the 'shirt lifters' to mention a few.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> What a sad story. I think you're exactly right in your thinking.


It is more than sad but unfortunately it is not an isolated incident. We had many similar cases here in Australia in the past.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-16/gay-tasmanian-couple-seal-dying-wish-with-new-zealand-wedding/6475226

Gay Tasmanian couple seal dying wish with New Zealand wedding
A gay Tasmanian couple barred from marrying in Australia have tied the knot across the Tasman.

Sandra Yates and her terminally ill partner, Lee Bransden, were married at a cultural centre in Rotorua, New Zealand, in front of about 20 staff and new friends.

The pair from Devonport in north-west Tasmania travelled to New Zealand with the help of an online crowdfunding website to help pay for the nuptials.

Ms Brandsen has a lung disease and has been given just weeks to live.

The wedding was her dying wish.

The newly married Ms Yates said the ceremony took on a traditional Maori flavour, adding a special spiritual element to the occasion.
The couple exchanged vows in a glade surrounded by huge man ferns near a spring, with Maori warriors arriving by canoe.

"The warriors came down in their canoe, it was so emotional, beautiful with their chant and their fire and their canoe all done up, it was just beautiful," she said.

"I thought it would be an anti-climax but it isn't, we feel great."
Friends for 30 years, the pair became a couple eight years ago and had wanted to exchange vows in front of their families.

Unable to marry in Australia, a campaign was launched to help them achieve their aim overseas.

While the couple was pleased with how the day went, the absence of family and friends was felt.

"Mum and dad, my son, his wife [and] their kids, my sister and her husband, our friends  there would have been many, many people," Ms Yates said.

The only thing, if Australia would allow same-sex marriage that would have been more special to be recognised in Australia.
Sandra Bransden, nee Yates

"This has been so beautiful, I'm so pleased that we've been here and done this, I don't think anything could be more special.

"The only thing, if Australia would allow same-sex marriage that would have been more special to be recognised in Australia."
Tears flowed during the ceremony.

"I just cried. The lady sang Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain and that did if for me because that's a very special song for Lee and myself."


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Loistec said:


> .


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

brucew said:


> It was the first thing I saw on the news today when I got up. It is a wonderful way to start the day.
> Minnesota has had equality in marriage since August 1st 2013. After 19 years of togetherness we finally made it legal on Sept 21, 2013 and have not regretted it. We are both thrilled that the rest of the same sex couples are now able to get married. It is something that should have happened long before today.


Congratulations. A long life and a happy life to both of you.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

grandmann said:


> The law of the Country gays can become married which is Good. It is up to the Churches if the gays want their marriages Blessed. I don't think the Catholic Church will ever allow a gay marriage because in the Church this is a Sacrament of Matrimony.


I remember the days when the Roman Catholic Church frowned on Catholics from marrying non Catholics. The the non Catholic did not change their religion and become a Catholic the couple were married before the side altar and not the main altar. My eldest sister's husband changed his religion so that my sister could be married before the main altar in 1948.

I remember when Roman Catholics were forbidden from attending a marriage ceremony that was conducted in a non Catholic Church, even if both parties were not Catholics. And is was absolutely forbidden for any Catholic to participate in a marriage ceremony in a non Catholic Church, it was considered a Mortal Sin.

The Roman Catholic Church treats all consummated sacramental marriages as permanent during the life of the spouses, and therefore does not allow remarriage after a divorce if the other spouse still lives and the marriage has not been annulled by the church.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

mojave said:


> Thank you.
> 
> To access some of our field sites we were hiking over saturated slopes. The trail gave way under me resulting in a rapid slide downhill, fractured a tibia and ankle.


I wish you a speedy recovery.


----------



## carrad47 (Nov 29, 2012)

st1tch said:


> I didn't know the U.S hadn't made it legal a long time ago, I just assumed we did it because you had. Even Ireland legalised it a few weeks ago, I never thought they would ever agree to anything like that.


It's been on an individual state basis, now it is legal anywhere in the US-and it happened during Gay Pride month. NYs parade Sun is going to be crazy!


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## sandj (May 16, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I remember the days when the Roman Catholic Church frowned on Catholics from marrying non Catholics. The the non Catholic did not change their religion and become a Catholic the couple were married before the side altar and not the main altar. My eldest sister's husband changed his religion so that my sister could be married before the main altar in 1948.
> 
> I remember when Roman Catholics were forbidden from attending a marriage ceremony that was conducted in a non Catholic Church, even if both parties were not Catholics. And is was absolutely forbidden for any Catholic to participate in a marriage ceremony in a non Catholic Church, it was considered a Mortal Sin.
> 
> The Roman Catholic Church treats all consummated sacramental marriages as permanent during the life of the spouses, and therefore does not allow remarriage after a divorce if the other spouse still lives and the marriage has not been annulled by the church.


That is intersting!


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Am delighted for all my GLBT friends. Everyone deserves the joys of marriage and commitment----Not to mention Dignity. I saw in the paper that there is a couple that have been together most of their adult lives and they couldn't say (or do) for fear they would lose their jobs. Thank God, that's History! :thumbup: :-D


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Hi Medieval: Have a glass for me; Congratulations, Best Wishes, ect. for a long and happy life together. :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

mmorris said:


> Am delighted for all my GLBT friends. Everyone deserves the joys of marriage and commitment----Not to mention Dignity. I saw in the paper that there is a couple that have been together most of their adult lives and they couldn't say (or do) for fear they would lose their jobs. Thank God, that's History! :thumbup: :-D


Losing jobs is NOT history. In 29 states in the US you can LEGALLY be fired for being gay or even suspected of being gay.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

This brings back some memories. My 'Boss' asked me to change my pay sheet to erase overtime. Went to HR, showed them and said I was prepared to go higher, if necessary. She and her flunky were fired that day. Maybe there's justice after all!


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

mmorris said:


> Scary info! Doesn't the Court's Decision null that? Guess it's a little early to decide. Thanks for the update!


No, it doesn't. That's a purely separate issue.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

You're right! Thanks!


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Loistec said:


> Yeaaa! Hallelujah! Equal rights for all!
> 
> Too bad for religious bigots!
> 
> Another win for liberal democracy!


Cheap shot, not ever person who believes in God is a bigot.

or some who do not believe in God are bigots.

Not every Rep is a bigot, just like not ever liberal can be called a bigot.


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## karverr (Jun 27, 2013)

jkirby1228 said:


> I agree that this is not the site for politics. Lets knit and crochet without getting the government involved.


politics are running everything you do in life, change our politicians who don't listen to the majority and only listen to the ones who make the most noise,


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## karverr (Jun 27, 2013)

Well I for one am not happy this has happened in a land that was founded on the principles of God. The only good I see coming from this is the next coming of Christ is near. everyone has voiced their opinion on here so now I will start getting whiplash from all the liberals that think how they feel is the only one that matters,they just like to argue.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Christ said something about 'Love (Respect) Your Neighbor as Yourself.' No time like the Present! :-D


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## karverr (Jun 27, 2013)

mmorris said:


> Christ said something about 'Love (Respect) Your Neighbor as Yourself.' No time like the Present! :-D


yep here they come. I love everyone but I don't have to love their lifestyles.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

karverr said:


> Well I for one am not happy this has happened in a land that was founded on the principles of God. The only good I see coming from this is the next coming of Christ is near. everyone has voiced their opinion on here so now I will start getting whiplash from all the liberals that think how they feel is the only one that matters,they just like to argue.


Uh, so far, the only one I see arguing is you. You can feel however you want but this country was NOT founded on 'principles of god'. If it had been there would be some mention of one in the Constitution. There's not. Not even in the part that say that there shall be NO religious test required for holding office.

Nobody is forcing anything on you. You don't have to go out and find a same gender partner or spouse. You can still go to whatever church you want and pray however you like.

This ruling just means that my granddaughter and her girlfriend can someday enjoy the same benefits of marriage that I do...if they so choose to do so. I think they're waiting to finish college before they make that decision, though.


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## karverr (Jun 27, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Uh, so far, the only one I see arguing is you. You can feel however you want but this country was NOT founded on 'principles of god'. If it had been there would be some mention of one in the Constitution. There's not. Not even in the part that say that there shall be NO religious test required for holding office.
> 
> Nobody is forcing anything on you. You don't have to go out and find a same gender partner or spouse. You can still go to whatever church you want and pray however you like.
> 
> This ruling just means that my granddaughter and her girlfriend can someday enjoy the same benefits of marriage that I do...if they so choose to do so. I think they're waiting to finish college before they make that decision, though.


How can making a statement about how I feel be construed as arguing. I could have made a comment on every post but I didn't cause that would have been arguing. there is a difference between arguing an stating an opinion.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

karverr said:


> How can making a statement about how I feel be construed as arguing. I could have made a comment on every post but I didn't cause that would have been arguing. there is a difference between arguing an stating an opinion.


Because, seeing the title of this thread and knowing how you feel about it, after reading 2 posts, you knew it was something you really didn't like. So you could have just backed out, clicked 'unwatch' and leave the rest of us to celebrate the fact that friends and family will be treated equally in at least one legal area of their lives. You only came to tell us all how 'wrong' we are and I expect next will be the threat of hell for everyone who doesn't agree with you.

Been there, heard that, feel sorry for anyone who can't see that 2 men who have been together for 54 years finally being able to make the legal commitment of marriage is a GOOD thing. Love wins. For a change.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Some friends are getting married this Fall. They're planning to invite only the ones who supported their relationship. I'm so proud to be their friend. :thumbup:


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## Loistec (Jan 25, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Cheap shot, not ever person who believes in God is a bigot.
> 
> or some who do not believe in God are bigots.
> 
> Not every Rep is a bigot, just like not ever liberal can be called a bigot.


*If a person is intolerant of other ideas, races, or religions, we call that person a bigot. The intolerance expressed by that bigot is called bigotry. Bigotry is ugly. There are different types of bigotry  like religious bigotry or racist bigotry.
bigotry - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com
www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/bigotry*


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

mmorris said:


> Some friends are getting married this Fall. They're planning to invite only the ones who supported their relationship. I'm so proud to be their friend. :thumbup:


Yes, I'm looking forward to the day my granddaughter lets me know that they've decided to marry. I'll be there if I have to crawl.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Didn't mean to anger you. Trying to state a simple fact. For myself, people are people. I'm not gay but have many gay friends which add to my life.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Jansba:I know the feeling! :lol: :thumbup:


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## eneurian (May 4, 2011)

karverr said:


> How can making a statement about how I feel be construed as arguing. I could have made a comment on every post but I didn't cause that would have been arguing. there is a difference between arguing an stating an opinion.


there is also a difference in wading in guns blazing and just backing out quietly and walking away. 
as in any freedom you must be willing to support the rights of the people who disagree with you. that is the tenet that this country was originally founded upon. i should be willing to defend to the death your right to have an opinion that i would fight to the death to oppose. 
the judiciary branch of your government of the people, by the people and for the people have decided that this particular right be granted. it is now law and should be supported and adhered to by everyone including, oh say, you.
this is not primarily a religious issue. it is a political and economic issue, whereby people can legally share the lives of those they love.
to be able to share insurance, health decisions, parenting, etc. without prejudice.
frankly my views are so far left of this situation i'm not even in sight. i should be able to put my dog on my insurance. my adult son should be on there too as he will never be able to care for himself and will be institutionalized upon my death. if i so love my couch that i wish to spend my life with it fine.
now go ahead and take issue with me, i don't care.

p.s. btw i do like your avatar but i had two friends jailed in the 60's for wearing us flag t-shirts. so let he who is without sin cast the first stone


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## Medieval Reenactor (Sep 3, 2013)

Medieval Reenactor's Wife, here.

For those who disagree with this decision, take solace in the fact that it doesn't impact you. You never have to marry someone of the same sex. Your church or pastor won't have to marry a same sex couple.

As for lifestyle, it's no more or less a lifestyle choice than the one you choose to live in respect to your religion. And that is protected by the First Amendment.

I disagree with how those who oppose civil rights choose to live their lives, too; but I don't go around saying they shouldn't be able to do so. I don't argue the government should stop them. I expect the same respect from everyone else.


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## MommaCrochet (Apr 15, 2012)

Well said, Medieval Reenactor's wife! Thank you!


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Hi Enurian: Hope I spelled that right! My favorite expression is 'Let's agree to Disagree' on this subject. (Not meant for you) Thanks for your post and Have a nice weekend. :-D


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Here in the South, it was illegal to (1) Marry a person of a different race, (2) Wear a flag t-shirt, and (3) ignore the 'Blue Laws.' Blue laws stated woman couldn't buy hose on Sunday. Thank Heavens, all this has changed.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

mmorris said:


> Here in the South, it was illegal to (1) Marry a person of a different race, (2) Wear a flag t-shirt, and (3) ignore the 'Blue Laws.' Blue laws stated woman couldn't buy hose on Sunday. Thank Heavens, all this has changed.


1) until 1967. Most people don't know it took that long. And while the law spelled out that ***** and white couldn't marry, those soldiers, sailors and Marines who brought home Japanese war brides were never affected by the law.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Let's do our 'Happy Dance.'


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

karverr said:


> Well I for one am not happy this has happened in a land that was founded on the principles of God. The only good I see coming from this is the next coming of Christ is near. everyone has voiced their opinion on here so now I will start getting whiplash from all the liberals that think how they feel is the only one that matters,they just like to argue.


It's not a matter of wanting to argue, it is the fact that we don't agree with you and are saying so. Your gloom and doom suggestions are not something we agree with. That is why we answer your posts. We feel that it is something very great that has happened. All Americans can now get married if they so wish. Not just those who fit the restrictions of people who believe theirs is the only way. I know this matter angers you, and I know how you feel. YOu have made yourself clear.

I am just glad that no matter who ridicules or is dead against their message, they are now Considered equal to other Americans with the right to marry. I am thinking that soon all other thinking countries will follow through and make 
all people able to marry who they love.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Several years, we had an Episcopal Priest (I use the word so loosely it rattles); He got up, said that 'No Gays would be welcome in the Church. If you don't like it, leave.' 2/3 of the Congregation followed his 'suggestion', got up and left. We all went to Lunch and did impressions. He was dismissed from the Priesthood a week later.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

...


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## Medieval Reenactor (Sep 3, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> While all people can now be married in every state, LGBT people can still be FIRED for being gay...legally...in 29 states. In fact, in those 29 states you can be fired if your boss even THINKS you are gay. We really need to get that cleaned up before we celebrate too hard.


Good point. I did get fired the day I got back from our honeymoon.


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## Medieval Reenactor (Sep 3, 2013)

mmorris said:


> Hi Medieval: Have a glass for me; Congratulations, Best Wishes, ect. for a long and happy life together. :thumbup: :thumbup:


Thank you! We were dressed up and everyone in the restaurant - staff and other diners were congratulating us. How special I felt. It was a fun evening. We've been married for 6 Years (and 3 weeks!) after being partners for 18 years. Families came and it was a wonderful celebration. I hadn't thought being married would feel much different after so many years of being together, but it really did.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

karverr said:


> Well I for one am not happy this has happened in a land that was founded on the principles of God. The only good I see coming from this is the next coming of Christ is near. everyone has voiced their opinion on here so now I will start getting whiplash from all the liberals that think how they feel is the only one that matters,they just like to argue.


I'm not trying to rude, Karverr, but that "Well, it doesn't matter--just a sign that the End Times is near" is a cop out. Why not try to understand where the pro-LGBT crowd--your fellow Americans--are coming from instead of hoping the Good Lord simplifies things by whooshing you into Heaven? No one can be sure when the Second Coming will occur, but I very much doubt He wants us to use it as an excuse for not trying to work out problems we His children have created on Earth, or shutting out our fellow man.


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## bane (Nov 27, 2012)

Medieval Reenactor said:


> Thank you! We were dressed up and everyone in the restaurant - staff and other diners were congratulating us. How special I felt. It was a fun evening. We've been married for 6 Years (and 3 weeks!) after being partners for 18 years. Families came and it was a wonderful celebration. I hadn't thought being married would feel much different after so many years of being together, but it really did.


I add my congratulations to you both. I wish you a long and very happy married life. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

:thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

eneurian said:


> there is also a difference in wading in guns blazing and just backing out quietly and walking away.
> as in any freedom you must be willing to support the rights of the people who disagree with you. that is the tenet that this country was originally founded upon. i should be willing to defend to the death your right to have an opinion that i would fight to the death to oppose.
> the judiciary branch of your government of the people, by the people and for the people have decided that this particular right be granted. it is now law and should be supported and adhered to by everyone including, oh say, you.
> this is not primarily a religious issue. it is a political and economic issue, whereby people can legally share the lives of those they love.
> ...


Yes, yes, and yes. Absolutely.


----------



## SanDK7206 (Jun 3, 2015)

Medieval Reenactor said:


> Medieval Reenactor's Wife, here.
> 
> For those who disagree with this decision, take solace in the fact that it doesn't impact you. You never have to marry someone of the same sex. Your church or pastor won't have to marry a same sex couple.
> 
> ...


Perfectly said -- thank you. Living my life believing in fairy tales and believing only I and a few others were "chosen" to go to a better place after death would be as repulsive to me as being in a gay marriage would be to some. Fortunately, we live in a free country, and no one has to live a lifestyle that is abhorrent to them. We are all SO LUCKY to be able to state our views openly, whatever they are, and should never try to keep anyone from doing the same.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

jkirby1228 said:


> I agree that this is not the site for politics. Lets knit and crochet without getting the government involved.


General chit chat about whatever we like. If you don't like it, go someplace else. Easy.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Scott In New Hampshire USA said:


> Thanks DizLiz. I am a Bible believer and I really love being married to my man, too.
> 
> Scott In New Hampshire


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cathy47 said:


> What ya mean I remember back in the day the word "gay" ment happy.. now it implies sexual preference wish they'd change that..


Who would "they" be? Hard to imagine anyone with the power to do that.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> I was going to add to my post that IF they are somewhere knowing what is going on here, they are thrilled, but I thought perhaps I had upset the apple cart here enough for one day ;~).


You have every right to post what you think here. You speak the truth and if they are where I believe they are they will be well aware of what is happening. Never hesitate to express what you really feel. Others do, many others.

There are people who don't agree with us, and that is okay. 
I know what I think, and you do too. Don't ever let yourself feel intimidated.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Scott In New Hampshire USA said:


> Thanks DizLiz. I am a Bible believer and I really love being married to my man, too.
> 
> Scott In New Hampshire


I am happy that both of you are happily married. I have been married 60 years and feel the same way. That is what is so great about this new law. All Americans, can live a happlily married life.

""""While Ontario was the first to legally recognize same-sex marriage, many other provinces followed soon after. Two years later, the federal government legalized same-sex marriage countrywide with the gender-neutral Civil Marriage Act.""""""""

I wish you both continued happiness and especially to all those who have wanted freedom to Marry and now have it.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Medieval Reenactor said:


> Medieval Reenactor's Wife, here.
> 
> For those who disagree with this decision, take solace in the fact that it doesn't impact you. You never have to marry someone of the same sex. Your church or pastor won't have to marry a same sex couple.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: Well said and thank you for expressing your thoughts. :thumbup:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> It's not a matter of wanting to argue, it is the fact that we don't agree with you and are saying so. Your gloom and doom suggestions are not something we agree with. That is why we answer your posts. We feel that it is something very great that has happened. All Americans can now get married if they so wish. Not just those who fit the restrictions of people who believe theirs is the only way. I know this matter angers you, and I know how you feel. YOu have made yourself clear.
> 
> I am just glad that no matter who ridicules or is dead against their message, they are now Considered equal to other Americans with the right to marry. I am thinking that soon all other thinking countries will follow through and make
> all people able to marry who they love.


I hope the decision taken in the USA influences the Australian politicians and the decision they will take shortly. Unfortunately we do have some extremely stubborn politicians in Federal Parliament over here, including one who is vehemently opposed to equal marriage rights for all citizens and he has a sister who is a lesbian and does not hide the fact. I honestly think is so very sad that so many people refuse to acknowledge that not all people are the same. Many people stubbornly refuse to accept that some people are different, they are not evil or slow or demented, they are just different. It is a shame because when they shut those people out of their lives they are missing a golden opportunity to meet people who may be able to enrich their lives in so many ways.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

mmorris said:


> Several years, we had an Episcopal Priest (I use the word so loosely it rattles); He got up, said that 'No Gays would be welcome in the Church. If you don't like it, leave.' 2/3 of the Congregation followed his 'suggestion', got up and left. We all went to Lunch and did impressions. He was dismissed from the Priesthood a week later.


Well that was a wonderful display of solidarity by the congregation; they did as he suggested. I wonder what happened to him; if he ever became enlightened, if he ever opened his eyes and his heart.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

brucew said:


> I don't think we will ever see the day when people will be able to marry animals.


Ha, must be two consenting adults.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wow! What a week for the President! What a week for America!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm not trying to rude, Karverr, but that "Well, it doesn't matter--just a sign that the End Times is near" is a cop out. Why not try to understand where the pro-LGBT crowd--your fellow Americans--are coming from instead of hoping the Good Lord simplifies things by whooshing you into Heaven? No one can be sure when the Second Coming will occur, but I very much doubt He wants us to use it as an excuse for not trying to work out problems we His children have created on Earth, or shutting out our fellow man.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> 1) until 1967. Most people don't know it took that long. And while the law spelled out that ***** and white couldn't marry, those soldiers, sailors and Marines who brought home Japanese war brides were never affected by the law.


I hadn't even thought of that. Many of our armed forces arrived home with Japanese and some Korean wives. It is not a problem to have any kind of mixed marriage in Canada, I am thankful to be able to say.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I hope the decision taken in the USA influences the Australian politicians and the decision they will take shortly. Unfortunately we do have some extremely stubborn politicians in Federal Parliament over here, including one who is vehemently opposed to equal marriage rights for all citizens and he has a sister who is a lesbian and does not hide the fact. I honestly think is so very sad that so many people refuse to acknowledge that not all people are the same. Many people stubbornly refuse to accept that some people are different, they are not evil or slow or demented, they are just different. It is a shame because when they shut those people out of their lives they are missing a golden opportunity to meet people who may be able to enrich their lives in so many ways.


It is so sad, as often it is a family member who is turned away. Everyone is hurt then. Love is something we don't always choose - I feel so sad for those who allow their families to be torn up over this, and carry so much anger in their heart against a child, or a brother or a sister.

I would think that those who say they are true Christians could not do that, but it isn't the truth. Sad indeed.


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## Laurieness (Jun 16, 2015)

Congrats, USA! Wishing everyone, gay or straight, who chooses to marry the one they love all happiness in marriage.


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## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

Like it or not, EVERY ADULT PERSON in the USA has a right to get married now.. no matter what anybody else wants or likes. Personally, I don't get why people are so angry about it - isn't it ALWAYS a great thing when LOVE CONQUERS ALL?


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## MommaCrochet (Apr 15, 2012)

Seems the court can decide on marriage, since states require a marriage license. Truly a blessing for all to be able to legally marry!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Many posters on this thread are intolerant of religious statements. since they try to deny our right to act on our beliefs, they are the bigots.
> 
> Since marriage is instituted by God between a man and a woman, any thing else is counterfeit. Since the Supreme Court did not define marriage, it can NOT redefine marriage. You can have same sex civil unions, but never a marriage.
> 
> The US was founded on Common Law and the Constitution. There is nothing in the Constitution about marriage. Therefore the laws follow common law or common practice. This Supreme Court decision is the beginning of the end of this country as we know it. The First Amendment is gone.


Mmm-hmm. I know how strongly held your beliefs, Joey, so I won't even attempt to persuade you otherwise--but are you just going to moan and groan about this latest development? Is that what your god expects of you--to just sit there and take it? If you really feel that marriage equality is "the beginning of the end of this country" then DO something! Plenty of folks who believe as you do has threatened a massive civil disobedience campaign--amending the Constitution to allow for the removal of Supreme Court justices--amending the above-mentioned document to make the issue of marriage equality purely state matter. The only thing worse, in my opinion, than people who equate marriage equality with Armageddon is folks who say they believe it but can't be bothered to fight for their god or their personal interpretation of the Constitution.


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## Loistec (Jan 25, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Many posters on this thread are intolerant of religious statements. since they try to deny our right to act on our beliefs, they are the bigots.
> 
> Since marriage is instituted by God between a man and a woman, any thing else is counterfeit. Since the Supreme Court did not define marriage, it can NOT redefine marriage. You can have same sex civil unions, but never a marriage.
> 
> The US was founded on Common Law and the Constitution. There is nothing in the Constitution about marriage. Therefore the laws follow common law or common practice. This Supreme Court decision is the beginning of the end of this country as we know it. The First Amendment is gone.


I suppose you are entitled to your beliefs, however misguided they are.
The fact is, marriage is now legally sanctioned for Every American, even those who you judge as unworthy of these rights. The Supreme Court has decided in favor of All the People, not just heterosexual people. Sorry you cant see the justice in that. 
I personally find your opinions quite offensive and closed minded. Religious Bigotry is alive and well in your world.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Who are you, to tell me my beliefs are misguided?
> Your opinions are very offensive and closed minded. You don't care that the rights in the First Amendment are gone.


And neither do you, apparently--else you wouldn't be sitting here just moaning and gnashing your teeth.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Loistec said:


> I suppose you are entitled to your beliefs, however misguided they are.
> The fact is, marriage is now legally sanctioned for Every American, even those who you judge as unworthy of these rights. The Supreme Court has decided in favor of All the People, not just heterosexual people. Sorry you cant see the justice in that.
> I personally find your opinions quite offensive and closed minded. Religious Bigotry is alive and well in your world.


My understanding of history is that many people fled to the Americas to escape religious intolerance and persecution in Europe and England. The Pilgrim Fathers come to mind.

I now find it very sad indeed that some posters here on KP are practicing that same intolerance and persecution towards other posters, and that intolerance and persecution is based on their own extremely narrow and often misguided and incorrect interpretation of Christianity and Christian doctrines. They seem totally unable to accept that others do not subscribe to such narrow interpretations. They completely fail to recognise that other posters hold, and indeed are entitled to hold, a totally different interpretation of Christian doctrines. Those posters also completely fail to understand or recognise that not all posters on KP are Christian. I am sure your 1st Amendment would uphold the view that non Christians are entitled to follow their own particular religion or philosophical beliefs.

Yes they are entitled to their beliefs, however misguided they are but they should also remember 'judge not as ye also shall be judged'.

It now seems that a certain well known poster has another barrow to push and we shall now be inundated with cut and paste quotes from whatever narrow minded and bigoted source she can scrounge from the web. Oh well, I guess it is a change for her to be ranting about something else and as they say 'a change is as good as a holiday'. Oh well, lovey, enjoy your change or holiday, just let us know if and when you return to the land of compassion and understanding.


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## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> My understanding of history is that many people fled to the Americas to escape religious intolerance and persecution in Europe and England. The Pilgrim Fathers come to mind.
> 
> I now find it very sad indeed that some posters here on KP are practicing that same intolerance and persecution towards other posters, and that intolerance and persecution is based on their own extremely narrow and often misguided and incorrect interpretation of Christianity and Christian doctrines. They seem totally unable to accept that others do not subscribe to such narrow interpretations. They completely fail to recognise that other posters hold, and indeed are entitled to hold, a totally different interpretation of Christian doctrines. Those posters also completely fail to understand or recognise that not all posters on KP are Christian. I am sure your 1st Amendment would uphold the view that non Christians are entitled to follow their own particular religion or philosophical beliefs.
> 
> ...


You are 100% correct

:thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> You are 100% correct
> 
> :thumbup: :thumbup:


Our EvieeeeM usually is.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> My understanding of history is that many people fled to the Americas to escape religious intolerance and persecution in Europe and England. The Pilgrim Fathers come to mind.
> 
> I now find it very sad indeed that some posters here on KP are practicing that same intolerance and persecution towards other posters, and that intolerance and persecution is based on their own extremely narrow and often misguided and incorrect interpretation of Christianity and Christian doctrines. They seem totally unable to accept that others do not subscribe to such narrow interpretations. They completely fail to recognise that other posters hold, and indeed are entitled to hold, a totally different interpretation of Christian doctrines. Those posters also completely fail to understand or recognise that not all posters on KP are Christian. I am sure your 1st Amendment would uphold the view that non Christians are entitled to follow their own particular religion or philosophical beliefs.
> 
> ...


Exactly right :thumbup:


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Sorry about what happened to your cousin. If the friend would have had a durable power of attorney, naming your cousin, and then was named executor of her will, most of what she went through could have been avoided.


No, it wouldn't. Blood family can override poa's. They only work if everybody agrees to abide by them.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> My understanding of history is that many people fled to the Americas to escape religious intolerance and persecution in Europe and England. The Pilgrim Fathers come to mind.


Actually no. They didn't the "Pilgrims" were actually Puritans who had tried to institute a theocracy in England. They burned churches, jailed people who wanted to worship some other way, even hung quite a few. They wanted to 'purify' the church. England got smart and kicked them out. The Netherlands took them in...until they tried the same thing there.

They came to this country to set up a theocracy under their own idea of religion. Much the same as they are still trying to do today. Coming here for 'religious freedom' might be technically true (if you consider the freedom to kill people who don't believe like you do, a religious freedom) but is mostly a myth.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> It now seems that a certain well known poster has another barrow to push and we shall now be inundated with cut and paste quotes from whatever narrow minded and bigoted source she can scrounge from the web. Oh well, I guess it is a change for her to be ranting about something else and as they say 'a change is as good as a holiday'. Oh well, lovey, enjoy your change or holiday, just let us know if and when you return to the land of compassion and understanding.


RETURN to the land of compassion and understanding? I don't think she's ever even visited there.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Love your Post!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Actually no. They didn't the "Pilgrims" were actually Puritans who had tried to institute a theocracy in England. They burned churches, jailed people who wanted to worship some other way, even hung quite a few. They wanted to 'purify' the church. England got smart and kicked them out. The Netherlands took them in...until they tried the same thing there.
> 
> They came to this country to set up a theocracy under their own idea of religion. Much the same as they are still trying to do today. Coming here for 'religious freedom' might be technically true (if you consider the freedom to kill people who don't believe like you do, a religious freedom) but is mostly a myth.


Thank you for pointing that out and saving me the trouble. The Puritans were not open-minded people - they were religious fanatics.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Thank you for pointing that out and saving me the trouble. The Puritans were not open-minded people - they were religious fanatics.


Thanks for information. :thumbup:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Actually no. They didn't the "Pilgrims" were actually Puritans who had tried to institute a theocracy in England. They burned churches, jailed people who wanted to worship some other way, even hung quite a few. They wanted to 'purify' the church. England got smart and kicked them out. The Netherlands took them in...until they tried the same thing there.
> 
> They came to this country to set up a theocracy under their own idea of religion. Much the same as they are still trying to do today. Coming here for 'religious freedom' might be technically true (if you consider the freedom to kill people who don't believe like you do, a religious freedom) but is mostly a myth.


Thanks for the information. :thumbup:


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> It has nothing to do with judging someone else. What ever they want to do behind closed doors is their business, not mine. They will be judged by God. He has stated in the Bible that what they do is an abomination in his sight.
> 
> It has to do with my freedom of practicing my Religion. Just ask the bakers, florists, photographers, marriage chapels, and other who have been prosecuted for refusing to cater to a gay wedding. Now there is a threat of Churches, colleges loosing their tax exempt standing if they do not preform at a gay wedding or not allowing gay housing.
> 
> We no longer have a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. It is tyranny.


Well, what are you going to do about it?

I find it remarkable that the anti-GLBT forces expect to find their so-called freedoms handed to them on a silver platter. Lots of lip action about how the Supreme Court's decision spells the end of Western civilizations, the beginning of the End Times, "tyranny" (in Joeysomma's words)--but no plans or even the will to reverse what they regard as a gross infringement on their rights.

The battle for marriage equality has been neither quick nor easy--the LGBT groups and their supporters have been struggling for some two decades. Their remarkable tenacity perhaps springs from the fact that they've been motivated by LOVE--love for their partners, their families, and their children--and the bigots merely by hate, which (as always) has zapped their will and shriveled their souls.


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

We no longer have a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. It is tyranny.[/quote]

Last time I checked the GLBT community are part of the people.


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Why don't you change your word "LOVE" for "SEX?" I can love someone without sex. All they want is to "force" acceptance of their sexual behavior.


What we want is acceptance of our love for each other. Being LGBT is not all about sex. It is about love and commitment to the person you have pledge your life too.
It is funny that the people who are so against marriage equality are more concerned about what goes on in our bedrooms than what happens in the other 99 percent of our lives. We could not give a damn about what goes on in your bedroom so why do you care so much about what goes on in ours. Heterosexual behavior has been FORCED on us all our lives.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Why don't you change your word "LOVE" for "SEX?" I can love someone without sex. All they want is to "force" acceptance of their sexual behavior.


Uh-huh. Look into the faces below and ask yourself if sex is their only motivation.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> They are, but 5 men on the Supreme court overruled the will of the people. When only a few "force" laws, that harm the majority, it is tyranny.


If "the will of the people" can be discerned by the polls, then the anti-LGBT forces lose. Poll after poll shows that the majority of Americans favor marriage equality.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> And the baby is a product of their marriage without intervention of some kind?


Unlikely. And your point is....?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Heterosexual behavior is a part of Nature's laws and God's law. You have not been forced! I should have said "acceptance" of homosexual behavior as the same as heterosexual is what is being "forced."


How is anyone forcing you to do anything?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

brucew said:


> We no longer have a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. It is tyranny.


Last time I checked the GLBT community are part of the people.[/quote]

I agree Bruce. Joey, are they not Americans in your mind? And if you agree that the GLBT community is made up of American Citizens,why do you feel you have the right to say it is tyranny when *ALL Americans* are finally given the same rights to Marry the person they love?


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## MrsB (Jun 3, 2011)

Oh my.


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## MrsB (Jun 3, 2011)

mopgenorth said:


> The topic is called "chit chat (nonknitting). I look forward to reading and understanding what is going on outside of my little knitting world. Interacting with others is what makes the world go round.
> 
> If you choose to limit your viewing pleasure to knitting subjects only, it's easy to opt out from this category - or you can just simply ignore it and not engage.


Totally agree with you. The chit chat forum is for any subject within reason. The moral majority is overruled!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Loistec said:


> I suppose you are entitled to your beliefs, however misguided they are.
> The fact is, marriage is now legally sanctioned for Every American, even those who you judge as unworthy of these rights. The Supreme Court has decided in favor of All the People, not just heterosexual people. Sorry you cant see the justice in that.
> I personally find your opinions quite offensive and closed minded. Religious Bigotry is alive and well in your world.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> And the baby is a product of their marriage without intervention of some kind?


Uh...my husband and I should have been prevented from getting married because neither of us are capable of producing rug rats? How special.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Why don't you change your word "LOVE" for "SEX?" I can love someone without sex. All they want is to "force" acceptance of their sexual behavior.


Exactly how does their sexual behavior affect you?


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## MrsB (Jun 3, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Why don't you check the votes and the Constitutional Amendments in many of the States, not the polls. The voters in California, twice voted to ban homosexual marriage. But liberal judges over rode the "will of the people."


It surprised me that California, of all states, would ban this. On another note, how long will it be before all states condone the use of marijuana? Already, many states have passed legalization. However, if you looking for a job that requires drug testing, you are cutting your chances of being hired-that includes all government jobs that generally pay more. I wish that a law would be passed banning cigarette, cigar and tobacco use.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Exactly how does their sexual behavior affect you?


She finds it icky.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Why don't you check the votes and the Constitutional Amendments in many of the States, not the polls. The voters in California, twice voted to ban homosexual marriage. But liberal judges over rode the "will of the people."


The ban was voted in largely due to a massive infusion of cash by the Mormon Church and their efforts to motivate the fundies. Last time I checked, Mormons are not exactly representative of Californians.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Why don't you check the votes and the Constitutional Amendments in many of the States, not the polls. The voters in California, twice voted to ban homosexual marriage. But liberal judges over rode the "will of the people."


Yes, they banned it back in 2008. Californians have since had a change of heart--it was 58-36 pro in 2013, and undoubtedly higher now.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> It has nothing to do with judging someone else. What ever they want to do behind closed doors is their business, not mine. They will be judged by God. He has stated in the Bible that what they do is an abomination in his sight.
> 
> It has to do with my freedom of practicing my Religion. Just ask the bakers, florists, photographers, marriage chapels, and other who have been prosecuted for refusing to cater to a gay wedding. Now there is a threat of Churches, colleges loosing their tax exempt standing if they do not preform at a gay wedding or not allowing gay housing.
> 
> We no longer have a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. It is tyranny.


So your Religious freedom is more important than Freedom for all Americans to make their own choices?? No one is forcing you to do any thing from what I can see. You are once again saying, that because you read your religion one way, the whole country should stop looking forward and instead look back and that you and those like you are the only people to be considered?


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Actually, there are a lot of kids in the system needing homes. A same gender couple adopts because they really want to share their home with another person who needs it. Unlike people who biologically reproduce because THEY want another little 'them'. 

The most selfish thing someone can do is have a baby...they never do it for the child's sake, they do it for their own gratification. And when those "properly" produced offspring don't turn out to be carbon copies (such as children who are gay), they tend to throw them out.

People who adopt do it for the child as well as themselves.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Why don't you check the votes and the Constitutional Amendments in many of the States, not the polls.


OK. From a 2013 CNN poll:

Non-Marriage States: Even in states without marriage for same-sex couples, a majority support the freedom to marry. A December 2013 poll from Anzalone Liszt Grove Research found that 51% of voters living in non-marriage states (at the time, 34 states) support marriage for same-sex couples. Support for marriage is strong in every region of the country - 59% in Central states, 53% in Western states, and opinion is split evenly in the South, with 46% in favor and 46% opposed.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> So your Religious freedom is more important than Freedom for all Americans to make their own choices?? No one is forcing you to do any thing from what I can see. You are once again saying, that because you read your religion one way, the whole country should stop looking forward and instead look back and that you and those like you are the only people to be considered?


Puritanism: the unreasoning fear that someone, somewhere might be happy.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> There are laws banning smoking in certain types of buildings, especially stores and restaurants. It was also banned from the Army's basic training, when my son joined in 2000.
> 
> Many private jobs also require drug testing to be hired, as they should. You would not want a person high on drugs to be driving an 18 wheeler or a school bus.


What does that have to do with sharing your life and commitment with another person?

Boy, you must live on a farm to be able to build all those strawmen.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Why don't you check the votes and the Constitutional Amendments in many of the States, not the polls. The voters in California, twice voted to ban homosexual marriage. But liberal judges over rode the "will of the people."


In today's political climate, legislation is hardly a reflection of the voice of the citizens, but has been skewed by money and by the Tea Party. This will change, have no doubt.

Polls are a much more reliable gauge of the views of the people since legislators routinely ignore what their constituents want. This is evidenced by the last election, where many progressive referendums on social issues were passed even though conservatives were elected.

Face it. Opposition to marriage equality is the minority view and one held only by bigots, religious extremists and conservative opportunists pandering to the lowest common denominator of the voting public.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> What does that have to do with sharing your life and commitment with another person?
> 
> Boy, you must live on a farm to be able to build all those strawmen.


Heehee--well, they are reportedly short on brains...


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> It is the most important freedom guaranteed by the First Amendment. One of the main reasons our country was founded. This ruling does nullifies it.


How the heck does marriage equality infringe on your religious freedom? Are you going to forced to ditch your current spouse and marry a woman?


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

I suppose if the Supreme Court vote had gone the other way on Friday there would be no mention of tyranny. As long as the religious right get their way everything is fine but if it goes against their beliefs it is tyranny and the whole world is about to end.
They seem to like to rain on other people's parades.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

brucew said:


> I suppose if the Supreme Court vote had gone the other way on Friday there would be no mention of tyranny. As long as the religious right get their way everything is fine but if it goes against their beliefs it is tyranny and the whole world is about to end.
> They seem to like to rain on other people's parades.


So true. I'm sure a certain party is constructing an ark in her backyard this very moment--you know, for when God makes it rain for forty days and forty nights to punish this naughty world (again).


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Fundamentalists like Joey rest their arguments on two main things; the bible and the idea that being homosexual is a choice.

There is no "tyranny" as obnoxious or onerous as the tyranny imposed by religion and the bible, which is a collection of stories and writings unfounded in history, common sense or reason. That anyone - ANYONE - can believe in it is unfathomable to me, but if people want to do so, they are free to do it. Because we have freedom FROM religion in the US, the bible is immaterial when it comes to law. Period. End. Of. Story.

I believe the SCOTUS ruling implies a deeper truth that has been overlooked, and that is the recognition of the fact that homosexuality is NOT a choice at all; it is the same as being born black, which is not a choice. It is the same as being male or female, which is not a choice. It is the same as being old or young, which is not a choice. *Thus, homosexuals have implicitly been made a protected class*

The bigots and fear-mongers are right in some respects that the systematic discrimination against LGBT people will no longer be allowed, and the bakers, the photographers, the inn-keepers and employers who practice their religious bigotry will find themselves on the wrong side of the law. As with anything else, they are free to deny services but there will be rightful consequences to doing so. As we go forward, they will be seen as exactly what they are, bigots in the mold of George Wallace and the KKK and those who refused services to blacks and defied the laws on civil rights back in the 60's. I'm sure there were many ministers who sputtered in outrage over mixed-race marriage laws being struck down and who vowed to defy that ruling. Today, we don't hear those objections because the public at large has accepted interracial marriage as a non-issue. The same will happen with same-sex marriage and the world won't come to an end as Joey and those of her ilk believe, because they are simply wrong.


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## Medieval Reenactor (Sep 3, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> And the baby is a product of their marriage without intervention of some kind?


I don't see what your point is ???????


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Here in the UK, a politician is regarded with some suspicion if he or she is openly religious. Civilisation is coming, but slowly.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> How the heck does marriage equality infringe on your religious freedom? Are you going to forced to ditch your current spouse and marry a woman?


As she has repeated over and over and over and over (add more if you wish) the bigots don't want to serve or do business with homos because doing so sort of implies agreement with their disgusting sexual practices. So, if that famous bakery suffered the consequences of breaking the law and discriminating illegally, they are being persecuted and not allowed to practice what they believe.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, there definitely ARE limits to religious freedom. When your religion harms others, that practice must be restricted. The idea of "absolute" religious freedom is absurd on the face of it. If that were so, cannibalism or pedophilia or killing those who stray from the faith and all sorts of practices could be called "sincerely held religious beliefs" without consequence.

What escapes the religious fanatics is the idea that marriage is PRIMARILY a legal contract that is legitimately regulated by government. Their claim that religious beliefs on the subject are the only "law" in existence is plain stupid.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

I think that We Will All Be Judged by God according to how we try to show His love to others and our Devotion to Him.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> It is the most important freedom guaranteed by the First Amendment. One of the main reasons our country was founded. This ruling and Obama's attorney's statements will nullifiy it.


Which statement are you referring to?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> It is the most important freedom guaranteed by the First Amendment. One of the main reasons our country was founded. This ruling and Obama's attorney's statements will nullifiy it.


The main reason our country was founded was taxation without representation. The First Amendment came later, Joey. That's why it's called an AMENDMENT.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Everything that is being said about same-gender marriage is EXACTLY what was said about interracial marriage. In fact, if you go back to my grandparents' day, this...and worse...was being said about their marriage.

Because my grandmother was left-handed and could not learn to use her right. My grandfather was accused of worshipping Satan for marrying her. She had already been banned from her church because of it. And it was the end of the sanctity of marriage because a 'believer' should not be yoked with one who is sinister.

My grandfather never entered another church in his life. And I imagine there will be another reason to slaver when once this is seen as nothing to get upset about. People, as we see here will find SOMETHING. Maybe even go back to considering left-handed people as demonic.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Bet Jerry Falwell is turning triple somersaults in his grave! :thumbdown: :XD:


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

'Christians are a scary group.'


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## Medieval Reenactor (Sep 3, 2013)

The US could always change to the French system where, as I understand it, the only marriages recognized by law are civil ceremonies. Many couples also choose to have a religious ceremony, though that has no legal validity. Roman Catholics, for instance, routinely also have religious wedding as the Church doesn't recognize civil marriage.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Medieval Reenactor said:


> The US could always change to the French system where, as I understand it, the only marriages recognized by law are civil ceremonies. Many couples also choose to have a religious ceremony, though that has no legal validity. Roman Catholics, for instance, routinely also have religious wedding as the Church doesn't recognize civil marriage.


Same in Holland. You can have a religious ceremony if you want but it holds no legal weight until you go to the registrars office and have a ceremony there. Clergy of any kind are not -legal- officiants.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Medieval Reenactor said:


> The US could always change to the French system where, as I understand it, the only marriages recognized by law are civil ceremonies. Many couples also choose to have a religious ceremony, though that has no legal validity. Roman Catholics, for instance, routinely also have religious wedding as the Church doesn't recognize civil marriage.


I believe the only marriages recognized here are those that come with a *marriage license* which necessarily involves the government. Marriage is a CIVIL institution by law. Religious ceremonies are optional.


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## MommaCrochet (Apr 15, 2012)

Many Christians, like myself, accept and welcome diversity. I prefer to accept all walks of life and leave judgements in God's hands.


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## Loistec (Jan 25, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Fundamentalists like Joey rest their arguments on two main things; the bible and the idea that being homosexual is a choice.
> 
> There is no "tyranny" as obnoxious or onerous as the tyranny imposed by religion and the bible, which is a collection of stories and writings unfounded in history, common sense or reason. That anyone - ANYONE - can believe in it is unfathomable to me, but if people want to do so, they are free to do it. Because we have freedom FROM religion in the US, the bible is immaterial when it comes to law. Period. End. Of. Story.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MommaCrochet said:


> Many Christians, like myself, accept and welcome diversity. I prefer to accept all walks of life and leave judgements in God's hands.


Thanks for posting that. I hope many others agree with you.

I prefer to live my religion with love not hate, as do you.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> There are laws banning smoking in certain types of buildings, especially stores and restaurants. It was also banned from the Army's basic training, when my son joined in 2000.
> 
> Many private jobs also require drug testing to be hired, as they should. You would not want a person high on drugs to be driving an 18 wheeler or a school bus.


------------------------
Where did that come from? I thought we were discussing the new law about marriage between same sex people.
You have a history of doing that when you start to lose an argument. Just stop talking about the subject and jump to another subject.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> How the heck does marriage equality infringe on your religious freedom? Are you going to forced to ditch your current spouse and marry a woman?


Right - no one is interfering with your religion, or your life, why don't you do the same for others?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> ------------------------
> Where did that come from? I thought we were discussing the new law about marriage between same sex people.
> You have a history of doing that when you start to lose an argument. Just stop talking about the subject and jump to another subject.


Evidently she feels no obligation to make sense. Duh.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

We had an Episcopal Priest who absolutely despised Gays. (Come to think of it, he despised everyone in the Parish ).Maybe he was a closet 'gay' and didn't know how to deal w/ it. When he left, there were 'high 5's. The Bishop excommunicated him. More Happy Dancing!!


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## eneurian (May 4, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Many posters on this thread are intolerant of religious statements. since they try to deny our right to act on our beliefs, they are the bigots.
> 
> Since marriage is instituted by God between a man and a woman, any thing else is counterfeit. Since the Supreme Court did not define marriage, it can NOT redefine marriage. You can have same sex civil unions, but never a marriage.
> 
> The US was founded on Common Law and the Constitution. There is nothing in the Constitution about marriage. Therefore the laws follow common law or common practice. This Supreme Court decision is the beginning of the end of this country as we know it. The First Amendment is gone.


1-this decision supports and extends the first amendment.

2-your 'god' is a johnny come lately construct. there have been many many many many man made concepts of god long before Judaism or Christianity. there have been thousands of years of human history, millions of years of anthropological deduction to support monogamy, polygamy, homosexuality, human sacrifice, just about anything you can imagine has been "common law" for some historical group of humans.

there is, i think, a Buddhist tenet that implies nothing is permanent, all is temporary. all the paradigm changing great minds have been ridiculed at the onset of their discoveries and clarity of understanding. all they could do is sit in their righteous knowledge until the old guard died away and truth could be set free.

you don't by chance believe that the earth takes a sharp turn south in the middle of the ocean do you?


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

I kind of like this statement:

Our gods are dead, ancient warriors slew them a millennia ago. They were more trouble than they were worth. --Worf


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Weddings cost anywhere from $7,000 and up! A friend spent a lot of $$$ on their wedding. She was home by Midnight. So long $$$.  :roll:


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

mmorris said:


> Weddings cost anywhere from $7,000 and up! A friend spent a lot of $$$ on their wedding. She was home by Midnight. So long $$$.  :roll:


It really looks like the wedding is more important than the marriage these days.

However, this would be a GREAT time to be a wedding planner.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

We had an Episcopal Priest who absolutely despised Gays. (Come to think of it, he despised everyone in the Parish ).Maybe he was a closet 'gay' and didn't know how to deal w/ it. When he left, there were 'high 5's. :XD:


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Within 20 years all the angst about same-sex marriage will be wondered at. By the 80s young people wondered why desegregation had been such a big thing. The same thing will happen in this case--within 20 years it will be an accepted fact and young people will wonder why it had ever been anything different.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Hi jbandama: Never thought being a wedding planner.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Puritanism: the unreasoning fear that someone, somewhere might be happy.


Or

Puritanism: the unreasoning belief that sex is dirty and should only be carried out by married couples in order to reproduce, or have a baby. It should be carried out in the bed room, possibly in the dark and it definitely should not be considered a pleasant and enjoyable pastime. Goodness me, to consider sex a pleasant pastime is almost a sin. It is also the wife duty to submit to her husband demands for sex, regardless of whether she desires it or not.

Question: Should a married couple only have sex when they desire to have a child? Once a pregnancy is confirmed should they then not have sex again until they desire to have another child?

Also, should hetrosexual couples not engage in sex if either one of them is incapable of either fathering a child or giving birth to a child?

The nasty snide remark made by the poster regarding the inability of the lesbian couple to have a child without outside help leads one to think that this poster regards sex as a means to having a child, nothing more. Does this standard also apply to hetrosexual couples who need 'outside help' in order to have a baby? Should there be a ban on IVF, sperm donors, AI artificial insemination, fertility treatment, surrogacy?

I think that this poster is really obsessed with sex, to the point of paranoia. Was she brainwashed as a small child by either her parents or an over zealous religious teacher that sex is dirty, dirty, dirty and she should avoid it at all costs, unless she is giving in to her husband's carnal desires or she want to have a baby. Either that or she is extremely frustrated. She aint getting none so no one else should be allowed to get any either.

.


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

mmorris said:


> Weddings cost anywhere from $7,000 and up! A friend spent a lot of $$$ on their wedding. She was home by Midnight. So long $$$.  :roll:


My DH and my wedding cost less than $500.00 and that included the rings. My sister became ordained so she could officiate. We rented a room at the Unitarian Society for the service and then we had a picnic in our backyard for the reception. We had had about 50 friends and family there to support us. It was the best day of my life. I am proud to introduce Geno as my husband.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Or
> 
> Puritanism: the unreasoning belief that sex is dirty and should only be carried out by married couples in order to reproduce, or have a baby. It should be carried out in the bed room, possibly in the dark and it definitely should not be considered a pleasant and enjoyable pastime. Goodness me, to consider sex a pleasant pastime is almost a sin. It is also the wife duty to submit to her husband demands for sex, regardless of whether she desires it or not.
> 
> ...


_Should a married couple only have sex when they desire to have a child?_

According to the last pope, that is exactly what they should do. He wrote that celibacy is the highest and most holy and desirable state even for married couples.

According to the conservative wackos, they seem to believe that celibacy is the best state for the poor, too. They don't want to "pay" for birth control for the poor, but they also don't want to "pay" for the children of the poor who indulge in sex without considering every possible or potential consequence of having sex. If you can't afford birth control you must abstain is their mantra.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Medieval Reenactor said:


> The US could always change to the French system where, as I understand it, the only marriages recognized by law are civil ceremonies. Many couples also choose to have a religious ceremony, though that has no legal validity. Roman Catholics, for instance, routinely also have religious wedding as the Church doesn't recognize civil marriage.


I agree, separate the civil ceremony and the religious ceremony. Many girls go for the big church wedding because they want the party, with the big frock, in the charming setting of an old church, and all the presents. But honestly, how many of those girls regularly attend church? Now, be honest, not all girls who go for the church wedding go to church every week.

I remember when there were only two places where a marriage could take place in Australia. Either in the church with an ordained minister who had the power to perform a legal marriage ceremony or in the cold atmosphere of the Registry Office where the marriage ceremony was performed by the Registrar General or someone so appointed. A Registry wedding was considered 'not really nice' and the couple almost pitied because they could not or did not have a church wedding, ie, a divorced Catholic. We fought hard and long for Marriage Celebrants to be legally able to perform weddings and for weddings to be legally performed in any place.

My first marriage was in a church and it was not a happy memory. I honestly cannot remember what the Priest said, I once told someone that he could have been reading his shopping list for all the sense it made. My husband had the same feeling.

My second marriage was in the Registry Office in a country town and the Registrar was warm and friendly. He took us to a warmer room with a lovely view over the harbour. He communicated far more than the cold and distant priest did. The thing that really spoilt that day was my ex's mother. She dominated the ceremony, at one stage the Registrar asked her if her son was marrying her or me.

I like the French system and I think more countries should adopt it.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

A friend was taught that 'Sex is filthy; You're a 'whore' if you do it.' etc. My friend has 6 children. Guess ' the lesson' didn't get through. :thumbup:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> _Should a married couple only have sex when they desire to have a child?_
> 
> According to the last pope, that is exactly what they should do. He wrote that celibacy is the highest and most holy and desirable state even for married couples.
> 
> According to the conservative wackos, they seem to believe that celibacy is the best state for the poor, too. They don't want to "pay" for birth control for the poor, but they also don't want to "pay" for the children of the poor who indulge in sex without considering every possible or potential consequence of having sex. If you can't afford birth control you must abstain is their mantra.


But the edict that "celibacy is the highest and most holy and desirable state even for married couples" obviously does not extend to priests.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

brucew said:


> My DH and my wedding cost less than $500.00 and that included the rings. My sister became ordained so she could officiate. We rented a room at the Unitarian Society for the service and then we had a picnic in our backyard for the reception. We had had about 50 friends and family there to support us. It was the best day of my life. I am proud to introduce Geno as my husband.


Bruce - it sounds wonderful. The big wedding really doesn't mean that much. It is the fact that you are marrying the person you want for a life partner. I wish you and Geno the very best future and I hope that when you have been married 60 years you still light up when you see him unexpectedly, and that you will always be best friends.

- My husband and I knew each other 4 days, it was honestly love at first sight; then wrote (he was stationed in Ontario and I was in Alberta). We decided I would flydown and we would spend time to get to know each other. (Didn't happen).

I got off the plane, and we just looked at each other, went across the street to a jeweller, bought rings, got on a bus to Barrie Ontario where Pat was stationed. Got our license (had to wait 3 days). Went to the Manse the home of the Preacher, two of Pats army friends and their wives, and were married. 60 years ago and we have been through all different situations but always faced them together.

We moved into a bed sitting room in a private house for l0.00 per week - it had a hot plate, a bed, I used Pat's Barrack Box (where he had all of his belongings -It had travelled to Germany, Korea with him), as a coffee table.

We had his friends for dinner. The boys all sat cross legged on the bed and floor and I cooked on the hot plate.

It doesn't matter WHERE you are married, HOW MUCH IT COSTS, as long as you KNOW without a doubt that this person is the love of your life. Our wedding (aside from the rings and my travel) cost us less than 50.00. A fancy wedding wasn't part of our agenda.

I wish the same for all newly weds- don't stay angry, don't carry grudges, and let the other person always know that He, She is the center of your life.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

mmorris said:


> A friend was taught that 'Sex is filthy; You're a 'whore' if you do it.' etc. My friend has 6 children. Guess ' the lesson' didn't get through. :thumbup:


Maybe she was "crossing her eyes, praying and thinking of England", as they said good old Queen Victoria did. Or she went to confession every week, confessed her sins and then said five Our Fathers and Three Hail Marys and was forgiven, each and every time. :XD:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

mmorris said:


> A friend was taught that 'Sex is filthy; You're a 'whore' if you do it.' etc. My friend has 6 children. Guess ' the lesson' didn't get through. :thumbup:


I guess her husband didn't agree with her.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Maybe she was "crossing her eyes, praying and thinking of England", as they said good old Queen Victoria did. Or she went to confession every week, confessed her sins and then said five Our Fathers and Three Hail Marys and was forgiven, each and every time. :XD:


A friend of mine is Catholic and didn't want to end up the mother of 11 kids...like her mother did. She talked it over with the priest and this priest was way beyond what you'd normally think he'd be.

He told her that confession only absolves sins with a sincere promise never to commit that sin again and gave her as an 'example'...a parishioner who was in the same situation had her tubes tied, then confessed. She could be absolved due to the fact that she certainly wouldn't be doing that again. My friend went and did the same. Unfortunately, a few years ago that priest got moved to another parish. She still misses him.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

brucew said:


> My DH and my wedding cost less than $500.00 and that included the rings. My sister became ordained so she could officiate. We rented a room at the Unitarian Society for the service and then we had a picnic in our backyard for the reception. We had had about 50 friends and family there to support us. It was the best day of my life. I am proud to introduce Geno as my husband.


That is the true sense of a wedding. Friends and relatives joining the happy couple and celebrating their union.

Compare and contrast this with my granddaughters wedding. In Bali, in a hotel by the sea. A beautiful wedding yes, a beautiful setting, yes, beautiful gardens at the hotel, yes, scrumptious meal, yes. The gardens and one of the pools and one of the restaurants at the hotel were closed to all but those attending the wedding. The ceremony was performed by an Indonesian Official, that is the only way that marriages are performed in Indonesia. Hindus have two weddings, the religious ceremony and the official wedding ceremony. Exotic Balinese dancers performing after the ceremony. All the wedding guests receiving a commemorative fan and sunshade. Happy packages for all the children under 15 years old. Everything cost big bucks. And of course all the guests who attended had to travel to Bali to attend the wedding so they had the cost of the flight and accommodation in Bali. The mother of the bride, my son's first wife, had prebooked the hotel for all the guests and they were all expected to stay at that hotel, which was not the cheapest hotel by any means. Every one did, except my daughter and her husband, they chose a cheaper hotel. The mother of the bride booked the two villas in the hotel grounds for herself, her second husband, her sisters and their husbands and children and her parents and the couple to be married. That was not cheap in fact is was extremely expensive. I could not afford to go at that stage so my son paid for my air fair and accommodation, he was earning a very salary at the time.

Such a contrast to your ceremony, but to be honest I would much rather your ceremony, it was personal and meaningful for everyone.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

mmorris said:


> A friend was taught that 'Sex is filthy; You're a 'whore' if you do it.' etc. My friend has 6 children. Guess ' the lesson' didn't get through. :thumbup:


Sex is only dirty if you do it right.

I believe that was from Woody Allen, but I do agree....!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> That is the true sense of a wedding. Friends and relatives joining the happy couple and celebrating their union.
> 
> Compare and contrast this with my granddaughters wedding. In Bali, in a hotel by the sea. A beautiful wedding yes, a beautiful setting, yes, beautiful gardens at the hotel, yes, scrumptious meal, yes. The gardens and one of the pools and one of the restaurants at the hotel were closed to all but those attending the wedding. The ceremony was performed by an Indonesian Official, that is the only way that marriages are performed in Indonesia. Hindus have two weddings, the religious ceremony and the official wedding ceremony. Exotic Balinese dancers performing after the ceremony. All the wedding guests receiving a commemorative fan and sunshade. Happy packages for all the children under 15 years old. Everything cost big bucks. And of course all the guests who attended had to travel to Bali to attend the wedding so they had the cost of the flight and accommodation in Bali. The mother of the bride, my son's first wife, had prebooked the hotel for all the guests and they were all expected to stay at that hotel, which was not the cheapest hotel by any means. Every one did, except my daughter and her husband, they chose a cheaper hotel. The mother of the bride booked the two villas in the hotel grounds for herself, her second husband, her sisters and their husbands and children and her parents and the couple to be married. That was not cheap in fact is was extremely expensive. I could not afford to go at that stage so my son paid for my air fair and accommodation, he was earning a very salary at the time.
> 
> Such a contrast to your ceremony, but to be honest I would much rather your ceremony, it was personal and meaningful for everyone.


My sister's son had a "destination" wedding in San Diego. I was asked "how many" rooms I wanted booked at a very expensive hotel. I felt it was presumptuous and pompous and I didn't go. I sent a gift and well wishes. Couples who expect families to spend large sums of money and possibly a lot of their precious vacation time are spoiled brats in my opinion. I also have a dim view of couples who live together for extended periods of time (and even have children) until they can "afford" the wedding of their dreams. Get married, for crying out loud and then have a smashing party on an anniversary or something or be honest and admit the wedding part is just an excuse to get dressed up and impress people.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> My sister's son had a "destination" wedding in San Diego. I was asked "how many" rooms I wanted booked at a very expensive hotel. I felt it was presumptuous and pompous and I didn't go. I sent a gift and well wishes. Couples who expect families to spend large sums of money and possibly a lot of their precious vacation time are spoiled brats in my opinion. I also have a dim view of couples who live together for extended periods of time (and even have children) until they can "afford" the wedding of their dreams. Get married, for crying out loud and then have a smashing party on an anniversary or something or be honest and admit the wedding part is just an excuse to get dressed up and impress people.


My first husband who is the bride's grandfather, refused to attend. He said he could not afford it and he would not let our son pay for the wedding. The bride and groom had lived together for a few years before the wedding and they had a six month old son when they were married. In fact the bride's mother preceded the bride down the aisle with much pomp and ceremony, carrying the baby dressed in the same colour and material as the bridesmaids. And yes the bride wore white with the veil of purity covering her face.


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## SanDK7206 (Jun 3, 2015)

DGreen said:


> Fundamentalists like Joey rest their arguments on two main things; the bible and the idea that being homosexual is a choice.
> 
> There is no "tyranny" as obnoxious or onerous as the tyranny imposed by religion and the bible, which is a collection of stories and writings unfounded in history, common sense or reason. That anyone - ANYONE - can believe in it is unfathomable to me, but if people want to do so, they are free to do it. Because we have freedom FROM religion in the US, the bible is immaterial when it comes to law. Period. End. Of. Story.
> 
> ...


PERFECTLY SAID. As someone who lived through the Jim Crow days up to and through the 60's, I saw the frothing and horrified reaction die back to a general acceptance of interracial marriage. Of course being gay is not a choice! If the anti-gays are planning a wedding, the baker and photographer of their choice are available to them. Now, that applies to EVERYONE. Why can't they understand (1) no one is forcing ANYTHING on them personally, and (2) the churches are NOT publicly licensed businesses, and will always have the option of marrying or not marrying whomever they choose. They do WEDDINGS; we are talking MARRIAGE here. Best of luck and congratulations to ALL who want to marry and now can due to this historic new ruling by a conservative-majority court!


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

DGreen: Couldn't have said it any better! :thumbup:


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> A friend of mine is Catholic and didn't want to end up the mother of 11 kids...like her mother did. She talked it over with the priest and this priest was way beyond what you'd normally think he'd be.
> 
> He told her that confession only absolves sins with a sincere promise never to commit that sin again and gave her as an 'example'...a parishioner who was in the same situation had her tubes tied, then confessed. She could be absolved due to the fact that she certainly wouldn't be doing that again. My friend went and did the same. Unfortunately, a few years ago that priest got moved to another parish. She still misses him.


Interesting also that Italy, a Catholic country, has the lowest birth rate of Catholic countries.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Funny Story: My cousin had a huge wedding-- 950 people, 10 attendants, and Country Club Reception. Her mother, not a big fan of her sil, went to the ladies' room to 'compose' herself She said she remembered putting down her handbag on the floor. The usher said that it was time for her to be seated. Going down the aisle she noticed that people were giving her odd looks. She looked down and saw that she had picked a roll of tissue instead of her bag. Trooper that she was, she just kept going! :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

jbandsma: Isn't it a shame that everyone can't be that helpful? He sounds like an absolute jewel! :thumbup:


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

mmorris said:


> Here in the South, it was illegal to (1) Marry a person of a different race, (2) Wear a flag t-shirt, and (3) ignore the 'Blue Laws.' Blue laws stated woman couldn't buy hose on Sunday. Thank Heavens, all this has changed.


I remember the Blue Laws. You couldn't buy a refrigerator or a washing machine on Sunday. Saturday, the stores were packed with people. If you couldn't get it on Saturday, too bad for you.

My parents could not marry in Texas in 1957 because my father was white. My uncle and his wife were married in Connecticut in 1954 because she was white.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

Dizzy Liz said:


> I believe everyone has a right to their own happiness. It does not make me a bigot if I believe in the biblical definition of marriage. It is my right to have the happiness in being married to a man. Those who are not willing to call diversity what it is are the real bigots.


I'm glad you are happy being married to a man. I am a straight woman, and also happily married to a man.

How many wives does your husband have ?

According to the biblical definition of marriage, your husband can have as many wives as he wants as long as he either...

* purchases them from their fathers, the concubines and the slaves of their wives are a bonus,

* captures them in battle, with or without rape, after killing everyone else who is either male, has given birth, is already pregnant, or not a virgin,

*rapes her and brings her home as long as he pays her father.

Additionally, he can...

* force her to have an abortion if he is jealous of her in any way, on his word alone

* claim she has committed adultery, with or without proof and have her stoned

* divorce her and send her back to her father, if she does not please him, or as in the case of a woman taken as a prisoner in battle, shave her head and toss her out into the street to beg, starve, or engage in prostitution to support herself.

Either way, women were property, didn't even own the clothes on their backs, and had no choices. Stay home, stay stupid, stay barefoot and pregnant, stay out of the way.

Read your bible again, from front to back, every single word. And before you start with the ' Jesus came to fulfill the law', just save it. That same bible was used to justify killing native people and slavery in every Christian country where it was practiced. That includes the US.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Here in the South, you can't buy wine or liquor until after 1:00 p.m. on Sundays. The displays are locked; :XD:


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Ruddersrun said:


> Please let's keep politics off of this site.
> Can we agree to just stitch?


General chit chat. Allowed.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

If the husband wanted to divorce his wife, all he had to do was go around in a circle and say, "I divorce you" three times. :roll: :roll:


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

mojave said:


> The US Supreme Court has decided in a split vote (5 to 4) gay marriage bans are unconstitutional. Equality of treatment for all citizens in the protections and benefits of marriage will be the law in all 50 states.


Congratulations and all the very best to my LGBT friends, and those I haven't met yet. 
I am a straight married woman and I have been standing with you for more than 40 years.
This was hard won in a long fight. It's about time.

All the very best to you and your loved ones.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

mmorris said:


> Here in the South, you can't buy wine or liquor until after 1:00 p.m. on Sundays. The displays are locked; :XD:


I was a bartender when I was in college and always wondered about that. Maybe that was just a courtesy to give people a chance to sober up?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Dangrktty said:


> I was a bartender when I was in college and always wondered about that. Maybe that was just a courtesy to give people a chance to sober up?
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


No, it was a chance for church to let out.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> And NOT baking a cake is harming someone? Poor babies have hurt feelings!


We've been over this but you seem impervious to logic.

Yes, hurt, just like "no blacks allowed" hurt people. EXACTLY the same concept.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

mmorris said:


> Here in the South, you can't buy wine or liquor until after 1:00 p.m. on Sundays. The displays are locked; :XD:


Here in SC, in areas where you can buy more than beer and wine (mostly the tourist areas) you can't buy liquor by the shot. You have to purchase a mini-bottle, which is 1.5 times the size of a normal shot.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> No, it was a chance for church to let out.


In some parts of the South that was the same thing.


----------



## krestiekrew (Aug 24, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> And NOT baking a cake is harming someone? Poor babies have hurt feelings!


What does cake have to with anything? Normally I would NOT bring this up but....have you forgotten the people that came to the Americas a/k/a New World also forced their ideas and religions on my people when they came in here and took over our land? Murdered my people by the hundreds, brought disease that killed my people? Have tried throughout the years to stop us from practicing our religion, sometimes killing when we did? Called us heathens, and did atrocious things to us. We have a Great Spirit, Mother Earth, nature, we respected life. Yours came in and even killed our food for fun and profit until a lot of our people starved to death, (buffalo for the hides and left the rest of the animal laying out to rot in the prairies).

You do as you please, but you do not have the right to judge another person! These people are not saying you must do as they do, you have not been invited over nite for any kind of sex, don't have to live in the same houses, I could go on forever - I won't. You do have the right to disagree, but not to force your views on another. Just learn tolerance and live and let live. Btw, you should hang your head in shame from my little history lesson!

PS....if you haven't figured it out, I AM one of those heathens, a Native American. A straight one with gay friends!


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

DGreen said:


> We've been over this but you seem impervious to logic.
> 
> Yes, hurt, just like "no blacks allowed" hurt people. EXACTLY the same concept.


Businesses are held to a different standard than religious organizations. They must apply for a business license, file state sales tax forms as well as federal forms such as withholding tax and FICA. They are not permitted to discriminate on race, religion, gender or many other grounds. In most states that includes sexual orientation.

A business is no more a religious organizations than corporations are people.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Dangrktty said:


> In some parts of the South that was the same thing.


Still is.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Dangrktty said:


> I was a bartender when I was in college and always wondered about that. Maybe that was just a courtesy to give people a chance to sober up?
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


More like institutionalizing being hypocrites.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> It is the most important freedom guaranteed by the First Amendment. One of the main reasons our country was founded. This ruling and Obama's attorney's statements will nullifiy it.


Let me see if I can bring this home to you, using public transportation as an analogy.

No one is telling you to stand in the aisle or sit in the back of the bus.

No one is telling you to give up your seat on the bus.

No one is forcing you off the bus or preventing you from riding the bus.

No one is forcing you to pay a higher fare.

The bus is just taking on some passengers who have been waiting a long time, patiently, at the next stop for the doors of the bus to open for them, so they can ride the bus, the bus that travels down the streets they helped pay for with their taxes, just like you. There is plenty of room for all, and it is a very big bus.

They don't want to take anything away from anyone. They just want the opportunity to ride on the public transportation.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

krestiekrew said:


> What does cake have to with anything? Normally I would NOT bring this up but....have you forgotten the people that came to the Americas a/k/a New World also forced their ideas and religions on my people when they came in here and took over our land? Murdered my people by the hundreds, brought disease that killed my people? Have tried throughout the years to stop us from practicing our religion, sometimes killing when we did? Called us heathens, and did atrocious things to us. We have a Great Spirit, Mother Earth, nature, we respected life. Yours came in and even killed our food for fun and profit until a lot of our people starved to death, (buffalo for the hides and left the rest of the animal laying out to rot in the prairies).
> 
> You do as you please, but you do not have the right to judge another person! These people are not saying you must do as they do, you have not been invited over nite for any kind of sex, don't have to live in the same houses, I could go on forever - I won't. You do have the right to disagree, but not to force your views on another. Just learn tolerance and live and let live. Btw, you should hang your head in shame from my little history lesson!
> 
> PS....if you haven't figured it out, I AM one of those heathens, a Native American. A straight one with gay friends!


History is bad enough, but congress is still at it. One example close to my home:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/politics/congress-gives-sacred-native-american-land-to-mining-company/article/420679

NOT TO MENTION the fracking taking place near Chaco Canyon which poisons the water and releases chemicals that cause cancer. And the republicans want to dismantle the EPA!

The white man has still not learned to respect native people, their traditions, customs and way of life.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Businesses are held to a different standard than religious organizations. They must apply for a business license, file state sales tax forms as well as federal forms such as withholding tax and FICA. They are not permitted to discriminate on race, religion, gender or many other grounds. In most states that includes sexual orientation.
> 
> A business is no more a religious organizations than corporations are people.


Until Hobby Lobby.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

jkirby1228 said:


> I agree that this is not the site for politics. Lets knit and crochet without getting the government involved.


This site isn't for politics. There is one section called Chit Chat and you've found it.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Actually, there are a lot of kids in the system needing homes. A same gender couple adopts because they really want to share their home with another person who needs it. Unlike people who biologically reproduce because THEY want another little 'them'.
> 
> The most selfish thing someone can do is have a baby...they never do it for the child's sake, they do it for their own gratification. And when those "properly" produced offspring don't turn out to be carbon copies (such as children who are gay), they tend to throw them out.
> 
> People who adopt do it for the child as well as themselves.


This is the Wells Fargo ad that got Franklin Graham so bowed up. I cried.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Dangrktty said:


> Let me see if I can bring this home to you, using public transportation as an analogy.
> 
> No one is telling you to stand in the aisle or sit in the back of the bus.
> 
> ...


But..but...what if a bigot doesn't want to SIT BY someone different from them???? It's persecution, I tell you!

(sarcasm)


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## user64822 (Jun 21, 2012)

I sat with a man once, and held his hand as he cried for the loss of the love of his life. They had been together for over forty years, and when his partner died he had no say in funeral arrangements, or what happened to the belongings, and worse, had to continue going to work, with nobody even asking how he was feeling, because they had kept their relationship a secret, even from their families, who had assumed they were just friends who shared a house for convenience sake. How different things would have been if they had been able to marry. It definitely is when things go wrong that that legal status matters most.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

jbandsma wrote:
Businesses are held to a different standard than religious organizations. They must apply for a business license, file state sales tax forms as well as federal forms such as withholding tax and FICA. They are not permitted to discriminate on race, religion, gender or many other grounds. In most states that includes sexual orientation.

A business is no more a religious organizations than corporations are people.

~~~~


DGreen said:


> Until Hobby Lobby.


That one really threw me for a loop. Not what I was expecting at all. 
Now if those religious organizations lost their tax exempt status, I might feel differently.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

DGreen said:


> But..but...what if a bigot doesn't want to SIT BY someone different from them???? It's persecution, I tell you!
> 
> (sarcasm)


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Everyone is different from them.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Dangrktty said:


> jbandsma wrote:
> Businesses are held to a different standard than religious organizations. They must apply for a business license, file state sales tax forms as well as federal forms such as withholding tax and FICA. They are not permitted to discriminate on race, religion, gender or many other grounds. In most states that includes sexual orientation.
> 
> A business is no more a religious organizations than corporations are people.
> ...


I have always been strongly in support of tax exemptions for churches because I have felt it helped strengthen the separation of church and state. The power to tax is the power to control.

I'm reconsidering that belief in view of the BLATANT politicization of churches and their egregious attempts to influence elections and legislation. It's time for the IRS to hold churches to account and tax them for the political entities they have become.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Until Hobby Lobby.


Even that has been quashed.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/06/22/3672613/right-birth-control-just-won-significant-victory-date-post-hobby-lobby-case/


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

In Tenn., they have 'Brown Bagging' laws. You have to put the bottle in a brown paper bag, pay $$$ for glasses, ice ect. It's so funny to watch. :roll: :XD:


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

DGreen said:


> But..but...what if a bigot doesn't want to SIT BY someone different from them???? It's persecution, I tell you!
> 
> (sarcasm)


Not really sarcasm...google orthodox Jewish men raising hell for an airline seating them next to women.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Blue Laws: Women couldn't buy Hosiery; :roll:


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> And NOT baking a cake is harming someone? Poor babies have hurt feelings!


It's called discrimination. And yes, it is harmful.

In 1963, my father got a promotion, and my parents decided to celebrate. 
My mother made a reservation at a medium priced restaurant, and we arrived a few monutes early, scrubbed, dressed in our best clothes, new patent leather mary janes and white gloves. My mother wore her pearl necklace and navy wool dress, my father in his best suit, tie and cufflinks. We looked like a magazine ad for Pepsodent toothpaste.

The hostess took one look at us and said,

" I'm sorry, but there doesn't seem to be a reservation in that name, but there is a table by the kitchen that will be ready in a few minutes."

I have never seen my father so mad. I don't remember every word he said, but he made a huge fuss about "all of these other tables are empty, why can't we sit there?..

If we wanted to eat by the kitchen, we would have stayed home. So we ate barbecue ribs and corn on the cob on picnic tables outside of a barbecue restaurant not far from the railroad tracks, dripping butter and sauce all over ourselves. My mother cried.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Not really sarcasm...google orthodox Jewish men raising hell for an airline seating them next to women.


Yes ! I read about that and saw the story on TYT, Youtube.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Our Priest made a glowing announcement about it during Mass this a.m. There was a standing ovation! :-D :-D


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## Loniegal (Nov 28, 2013)

mopgenorth said:


> The topic is called "chit chat (nonknitting). It was created due to the large number of people who wanted to discuss issues of importance that had nothing to do with crafting. Based on the number of daily threads and number of posters, objectors to non-knitting themes are way outnumbered. If you choose to limit your viewing pleasure to knitting subjects only, it's easy to opt out from this category - or you can just simply ignore it and not engage and move on to a subject you will enjoy.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Loniegal (Nov 28, 2013)

Scott In New Hampshire USA said:


> Thanks DizLiz. I am a Bible believer and I really love being married to my man, too.
> 
> Scott In New Hampshire


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

What time do Bars and ABC Stores open on Sunday?


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## Loniegal (Nov 28, 2013)

st1tch said:


> I didn't know the U.S hadn't made it legal a long time ago, I just assumed we did it because you had. Even Ireland legalised it a few weeks ago, I never thought they would ever agree to anything like that.


It has been legal in some states but not others for a few years now. It just became legal here in Florida in January due to a court decision. The Supreme Court decision now makes it the law for the entire country. :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Even that has been quashed.
> http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/06/22/3672613/right-birth-control-just-won-significant-victory-date-post-hobby-lobby-case/


Not quite. It's just a decision about paperwork and making the "objectors" comply with paperwork requirements. They still can refuse to provide birth control.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Several years ago the vote came up for the NC Lottery. All Hell broke loose. By the way, the Popular vote was 98% to 2%.) :thumbup:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Elsie Shufflebottom said:


> I sat with a man once, and held his hand as he cried for the loss of the love of his life. They had been together for over forty years, and when his partner died he had no say in funeral arrangements, or what happened to the belongings, and worse, had to continue going to work, with nobody even asking how he was feeling, because they had kept their relationship a secret, even from their families, who had assumed they were just friends who shared a house for convenience sake. How different things would have been if they had been able to marry. It definitely is when things go wrong that that legal status matters most.


I applaud your compassion. Hopefully, those days are over.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Dangrktty said:


> It's called discrimination. And yes, it is harmful.
> 
> In 1963, my father got a promotion, and my parents decided to celebrate.
> My mother made a reservation at a medium priced restaurant, and we arrived a few monutes early, scrubbed, dressed in our best clothes, new patent leather mary janes and white gloves. My mother wore her pearl necklace and navy wool dress, my father in his best suit, tie and cufflinks. We looked like a magazine ad for Pepsodent toothpaste.
> ...


That story makes my stomach roll.

Yes, discrimination hurts and is immoral.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Love it! That says it all, doesn't it?


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Not quite. It's just a decision about paperwork and making the "objectors" comply with paperwork requirements. They still can refuse to provide birth control.


It's on its way out. I think 2 things will end up killing it completely

1) even though it sounds totally ridiculous on the face of it, I think it has to be taken seriously for the first amendment religion clause to be valid...the church of satan's suit claiming that denying birth control coverage violates their religion and

2) I don't know why this was never brought up in the original Hobby Lobby suit for the defense...Hobby Lobby does not pay for their employees' health insurance directly. They provide the group that their insurance is based on but employees pay for enough of their coverage that HL owners should not be able to decide what they get.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

In College, I did Volunteer work w/ Special Ed. teens. One thing they always enjoyed was going to the Library. The Librarian asked me why they checked out all their books. I said, 'To read.' She looked at me and said, 'I didn't think they knew how.' I went immediately to her boss. She never asked me again. I can honestly say that I've never been as angry as I was that day. Bigotry comes in all shapes and sizes, doesn't it? :thumbdown:


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Elsie Shufflebottom said:


> I sat with a man once, and held his hand as he cried for the loss of the love of his life. They had been together for over forty years, and when his partner died he had no say in funeral arrangements, or what happened to the belongings, and worse, had to continue going to work, with nobody even asking how he was feeling, because they had kept their relationship a secret, even from their families, who had assumed they were just friends who shared a house for convenience sake. How different things would have been if they had been able to marry. It definitely is when things go wrong that that legal status matters most.


Did you see the couple who was first to be married in one city in Texas. 54 years together. And a couple in Iowa who have been together 70 years.

http://time.com/3938782/jack-evans-george-harris-marriage-texas/
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/08/ninety-year-old-gay-couple-marries-in-iowa


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> It's on its way out. I think 2 things will end up killing it completely
> 
> 1) even though it sounds totally ridiculous on the face of it, I think it has to be taken seriously for the first amendment religion clause to be valid...the church of satan's suit claiming that denying birth control coverage violates their religion and
> 
> 2) I don't know why this was never brought up in the original Hobby Lobby suit for the defense...Hobby Lobby does not pay for their employees' health insurance directly. They provide the group that their insurance is based on but employees pay for enough of their coverage that HL owners should not be able to decide what they get.


We can only hope you are right.


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## krestiekrew (Aug 24, 2012)

DGreen said:


> The white man has still not learned to respect native people, their traditions, customs and way of life.


It's called broken treaties......


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

krestiekrew said:


> It's called broken treaties......


Shouldn't needed treaties.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Why do you think Churches would be taxed? Do you have any idea why they are called tax-exempt? I bet you do not!


Their tax exemption is dependent on their staying out of politics. Quite a few have violated that but the IRS has not gone after them for breaking the law. And they are tax exempt because they are supposed to be non-profit.

The same as the papers with my name on them filed for non-profit status for our domestic abuse shelter. So don't even try to foist your version on everybody else.


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## Loniegal (Nov 28, 2013)

MommaCrochet said:


> Many Christians, like myself, accept and welcome diversity. I prefer to accept all walks of life and leave judgements in God's hands.


Sorry to say but some of the bigots give the rest of us Christians a bad name.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Loniegal said:


> Sorry to say but some of the bigots give the rest of us Christians a bad name.


As I have learned first hand on this forum.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Since Hobby Lobby pays for the benefit, they get to decide what it will and will not cover. If the employees do not like what Hobby Lobby provides, they can buy their own. Or pay for what ever procedures they want out of their own pocket. Just like most insurance. So you think Obamacare, Medicaid, or Medicare will pay for "anything" you want? Even if it is medically necessary, think again.


I'm on Medicare. So far I haven't found anything it won't pay for. Even two things that aren't medically necessary...both cataract surgeries. And the glasses I still need. Funny, my regular insurance cancelled me in 1997 when I was diagnosed with COPD and I wasn't able to get other coverage due to "preexisting" conditions until I qualified for Medicare four years ago. Been in the hospital twice, numerous doctor visits, diabetes diagnosis a year ago and the ONLY thing I've paid for has been my medication co-pay.

You're on a roll for being wrong, aren't you?


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> I'm on Medicare. So far I haven't found anything it won't pay for. Even two things that aren't medically necessary...both cataract surgeries. And the glasses I still need. Funny, my regular insurance cancelled me in 1997 when I was diagnosed with COPD and I wasn't able to get other coverage due to "preexisting" conditions until I qualified for Medicare four years ago. Been in the hospital twice, numerous doctor visits, diabetes diagnosis a year ago and the ONLY thing I've paid for has been my medication co-pay.
> 
> You're on a roll for being wrong, aren't you?


Does Medicare pay your dental bills, for eye glasses, hearing aids?


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> So you don't know! Staying out of politics has nothing to do with it.


From the IRS website itself

Under law, tax-exempt organizations described in section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code are *prohibited from participating or intervening in any political campaign on behalf of, or in opposition to, any candidate for public office*. Charities, educational institutions and religious organizations, including churches, are among those that are covered under this code section.

*These organizations cannot endorse any candidates, make donations to their campaigns, engage in fund raising, distribute statements, or become involved in any other activities that may be beneficial or detrimental to any particular candidate. Even activities that encourage people to vote for or against a particular candidate on the basis of nonpartisan criteria violate the political campaign prohibition of section 501(c)(3).*

Wrong yet again


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Does Medicare pay your dental bills, for eye glasses, hearing aids?


Paid for my glasses. Will pay for my husband's dental surgery, I don't know about that for me as I have no need to find out. As for the hearing aid, no. Not a MEDICAL necessity. They will pay to rebuild my missing eardrum if I decide to have it done, though and have paid for the specially molded plug to block water, etc that could set up life threatening infections.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I'm glad it has worked for you! You must have a good supplement to pay for that much. Medicare will only pay 80% of part B.
> 
> Have you read the book that states what they will and not cover, and then how much of it they will pay for? If a certain test is necessary, they decide how often they will pay for the test. If it is every year, every two years or more.
> 
> Medicaid will also decide which drugs they will pay for, If your doctor writes a prescription for a drug they do not think it necessary, It can not be purchased personally or they could possibly loose Medicaid.


I'm not on medicAID and yes, I have the handbook here. And no, if I prefer to pay for a different drug than those covered, I will NOT lose my coverage at all.

You love trying to scare people, don't you? With total misinformation.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Still wrong! Those are things they can and can not do once they are classified a 501(c)(3) organization.


If you don't have the paperwork you can't claim tax exemption. Geez, you are either stupid or off your meds again. Probably the latter.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Still wrong! Those are things they can and can not do, once they are classified a 501(c)(3) organization.


Btw read the part in red...you know, where it says INCLUDING CHURCHES.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I know you said Medicare. I answered your statement and then added a statement on Medicaid. I have had no personal knowledge of Obamacare so I cannot make a statement about them. I have only read about many things they do not cover.


No, you tried to equate MediCARE, a program every working person pays into with MedicAID, which is a state run program for medical care for the very poor and the rules for each are very different.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Why are they called tax-exempt? You have proved you have no idea. I had asked this of Dgreen and I will wait for her reply, if she is brave enough to answer.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: 
Oh, she will reply, and you will run off with your tail between your legs as usual.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> No, you tried to equate MediCARE, a program every working person pays into with MedicAID, which is a state run program for medical care for the very poor and the rules for each are very different.


That is correct, jbandsma.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> I'm not on medicAID and yes, I have the handbook here. And no, if I prefer to pay for a different drug than those covered, I will NOT lose my coverage at all.
> 
> You love trying to scare people, don't you? With total misinformation.


She owns the jewel encrusted helmet on that one, J.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Yes I read that, I know the tax code. I have prepared individual income taxes for 17 years. I am only one- step below an Enrolled Agent. I will not go any farther, as I have no desire to represent any taxpayer in a Tax Court.


.....and the citizens of the USA breathe a collective sigh of relief.

Getting back on topic I am glad to see that the hard work of the president and liberals has paid off. The ACA is here to stay and our LGBT citizens can now marry their loves. And the Confederate flags are coming down all over!


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Why are they called tax-exempt? You have proved you have no idea. I had asked this of Dgreen and I will wait for her reply, if she is brave enough to answer.


They are called tax exempt because they don't pay taxes. Neither federal, state nor property taxes. Whoopee ding...I get to pay for your church to have fire and police protection, garbage pickup, street maintence and other amenities so that you can tell every one how terrible we are and that you will enjoy seeing us all in hell.

I KNOW what tax exempt is...what you need to get it and what you need to do, and NOT do, to keep it.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Churches are tax exempt because it is thought they provide a social benefit and should therefore not be taxed. Places of worship are expected to do good acts for the poor and the needy. Because this is one of their main purposes, it is believed that they should not be taxed for the good they do for people.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Yes I read that, I know the tax code. I have prepared individual income taxes for 17 years. I am only one- step below an Enrolled Agent. I will not go any farther, as I have no desire to represent any taxpayer in a Tax Court.


Somehow I greatly doubt that claim. And if it should be true, I am certainly glad our accountant is a gay atheist.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> Churches are tax exempt because it is thought they provide a social benefit and should therefore not be taxed. Places of worship are expected to do good acts for the poor and the needy. Because this is one of their main purposes, it is believed that they should not be taxed for the good they do for people.


That might have been the original reason. It isn't any more. The churches here do very little actual good when compared to the evil they perpetrate on people.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> Churches are tax exempt because it is thought they provide a social benefit and should therefore not be taxed. Places of worship are expected to do good acts for the poor and the needy. Because this is one of their main purposes, it is believed that they should not be taxed for the good they do for people.


Hello, SQ! I wonder how much of the money that they take in actually does go to helping the sick, poor, and needy.


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## Medieval Reenactor (Sep 3, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> If you don't have the paperwork you can't claim tax exemption. Geez, you are either stupid or off your meds again. Probably the latter.


"Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean."
Buckaroo Banzai


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Medieval Reenactor said:


> "Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean."
> Buckaroo Banzai


Once you get to know the poster, you will see she is not being mean. I would say she is more exasperated than anything given the person who is baiting her.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> You are right they do not pay Federal or State income or sales tax or Property taxes. If they were not tax exempt they would only pay sales and property tax. They would not pay Federal or State income tax.


Wrong on sales tax. All non profits are required to pay state sales tax on tangible purchases. The only exemption from sales tax is with a valid business license when purchasing inventory for resale.

Still have my license. Could get a very large fine for using it to buy goods for personal use without paying tax on them.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> That might have been the original reason. It isn't any more. The churches here do very little actual good when compared to the evil they perpetrate on people.


If you reread my statement, I equivocated. I wanted to speak to the question and not deal with my personal beliefs .


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Hello, SQ! I wonder how much of the money that they take in actually does go to helping the sick, poor, and needy.


Sending bibles to tsunami victims count?


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Medieval Reenactor said:


> "Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean."
> Buckaroo Banzai


Just wait. She hasn't started on her beloved conspiracy theories yet. Never met one she didn't fall for.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Sending bibles to tsunami victims count?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Are you serious? Bibles? Not food, clothing, water, medicine, or any other earthly thing that one may need to survive?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Maybe in your state. In Wisconsin, a 501(c)(3)organization has a special ES code from the state and is exempt from paying sales tax.


Funny how states have different laws.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Why do you think Churches would be taxed? Do you have any idea why they are called tax-exempt? I bet you do not!


I assume it is because they *supposedly* are in the business of providing a good for humanity.

My opinion of the good they do? Zero. Zilch. The bad they do far overwhelms any good. It's a net negative. You are living, breathing proof of that.

Beyond that, I DO KNOW they are not supposed to engage in political activities like telling parishioners how to vote. They routinely violate their end of the agreement. So maybe they should be taxed.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Are you serious? Bibles? Not food, clothing, water or any other earthly thing that one may need to survive?


Bibles, TV set and video tapes of preachers. Not tsunami victims actually but to one of the disaster areas. Can't find the info right now. But will when I can get to the computer. On the iPad right now


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I know you said Medicare. I answered your statement and then added a statement on Medicaid. I have had no personal knowledge of Obamacare so I cannot make a statement about them. I have only read about many things they do not cover.


Remarkable! You finally admit you have no personal knowledge of Obamacare! Key words: NO KNOWLEDGE.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> What would they be taxed on? They will still pay no State or Federal income tax.


On their INCOME? And yes, if they lose their exempt status, they will have to pay taxes.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> What would they be taxed on? They will still pay no State or Federal income tax.


Look up Van O'Steen's wealth - every penny of which is donated. Look at the fantastic mega-churches - tax exempt. Churches rake in billions every year.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Hey Mrs. Somma - Don't I get tonight's point for being the first one to come up with the right answer?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Remarkable! You finally admit you have no personal knowledge of Obamacare! Key words: NO KNOWLEDGE.


Good find, D!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Look up Van O'Steen's wealth - every penny of which is donated. Look at the fantastic mega-churches - tax exempt. Churches rake in billions every year.


And yet, there are so many in this country living below the poverty line.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> And yet, there are so many in this country living below the poverty line.


Pastor Osteen acquired Lakewood Church's new home at the former Compaq Center in 2005. The 16,000-seat arena is home to the nation's largest congregation (43,000 members) and underwent $95 million in renovations, according to a 2005 New York Times article. "Like many new evangelical churches, the building has no cross, no stained glass, no other religious iconography. Instead, it has a cafe with wireless Internet access, 32 video game kiosks and a vault to store the offering," the paper reported. (source)
Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/buzzvine/joel-osteens-10-5-million-mansion-cross-less-church-and-other-surprising-facts-about-the-mega-pastor-106986/#edVFhkpdHRJD8vyz.99

All of this tax free.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

What does Joel Osteen focus charity efforts on? He and his wife focus on Feed the Children, a charity that aims to give food to starving children, especially in the third world. However, the charity has received an F rating from charity watchdog groups. Much of the money goes toward staff, fundraisers, and administrative costs little to food for children.

http://mcimaps.com/joel-osteen-makes-millions-off-prosperity-gospel-does-little-for-the-poor/


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> Hey Mrs. Somma - Don't I get tonight's point for being the first one to come up with the right answer?


Did you? Because what she's upset about not getting an answer to...which I actually gave her...was the question WHY are they called tax exempt. Not what they do for it but the definition of BEING tax exempt.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> What does Joel Osteen focus charity efforts on? He and his wife focus on Feed the Children, a charity that aims to give food to starving children, especially in the third world. However, the charity has received an F rating from charity watchdog groups. Much of the money goes toward staff, fundraisers, and administrative costs little to food for children.
> 
> http://mcimaps.com/joel-osteen-makes-millions-off-prosperity-gospel-does-little-for-the-poor/


It's so sad to see that. In Texas alone, his money could help millions!


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> What income?


Tithes, donations. Etc. or are you one of those who claims a church but doesn't support it? Money coming in? That's INCOME. Isn't an accountant supposed to know little things like that?


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Tithes, donations etc are gifts, They would only be taxable to the giver, not the receiver.


Boy have you got that backwards.


----------



## brucew (May 7, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Sending bibles to tsunami victims count?


That way the victims can pray their way out of the disaster. And we all know how that works.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Prove it!


Do you get a tax deduction for giving money to the church? If you get a monetary "gift", won't you have to report it?

You said people donating would have to pay a tax but a church getting it wouldn't be income. Money comin in from any source IS income.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Any "gift" is taxable to the giver not the receiver.


Double glad you are not my accountant. And I feel really sorry for those you work for.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> You don't have the right answer!


Joey's asking here because she doesn't know the answer.
oh. I see she found out from someone.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Joey's asking here because she doesn't know the answer.


And churches have no income. Right. I guess that's why most of them, especially the bigger ones, have financial officers instead of treasurers.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> You don't have the right answer!


Okay. Tell us the right answer. We can take it.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Any "gift" is taxable to the giver not the receiver.


How do you explain inheritance tax?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> And churches have no income. Right. I guess that's why most of them, especially the bigger ones, have financial officers instead of treasurers.


Sure seems dishonest to me. They rake it in, and those in charge spend it. Joey, do you really think that is what God wants?


----------



## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

DGreen said:


> That story makes my stomach roll.
> 
> Yes, discrimination hurts and is immoral.


I was 5 years old and will never forget that evening.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I am talking about tax law, nothing else.


Which brings us full circle, Joey.

You can't defend the outrageous behavior of churches involving themselves in politics so you drag a big, smelly red herring into the discussion, which is what you always do.

Tax law may be your supposed area of expertise, but you don't impress me in the least. You have yet to demonstrate any talent except your ability to be a parrot.

You refuse to acknowledge the evil that people like Van O'Steen represent. If your logic regarding baking wedding cakes is correct and to do so implies consent and approval, I guess your defense of people like O'Steen makes you complicit in their thievery. Good going.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Dangrktty said:


> Congratulations and all the very best to my LGBT friends, and those I haven't met yet.
> I am a straight married woman and I have been standing with you for more than 40 years.
> This was hard won in a long fight. It's about time.
> 
> All the very best to you and your loved ones.


I am also a straight woman who has been standing with her LGBT friends since the late 1950s. Yes, even as a teenager back then I had friends who were LGBT. The brother of my then boyfriend's best mate went to Europe in 1958 as a male and came back nearly a year later as a girl. She was a very good friend even after I broke the relationship with that boyfriend. We lost contact when she went to England. I also stood with my second husband who was Bi, but I did not condone his extra marital affairs, regardless of who they were with. Unfortunately he was extremely mixed up, a result of the attitudes of those days. He also had an idealised version of marriage, he believed in the 'happy ever after model', it was just that his attitude towards sex that was more than mixed up. This was not the result of him being bi but because his mother told him repeatedly when he was a teenager that sex was dirty, disgusting, caused VD, etc, etc, etc. She was widowed at the time and was looking for a second husband. She did have boyfriends and her bedroom was through the wall from the bedroom my ex and his older brother shared. They had, unbeknown to her, placed a microphone under her bed and recorded her activities on the old reel to reel tape recorder. He told me he and his brother would then replay the tapes and listen to them when the mother was out of the house. No, she never knew of this activity of the boys. The main reason the marriage failed was because my ex was a mean, nasty, controlling ***** and he was often violent. His brother's two marriages also failed because he had the same traits, the mean, nasty ones, the older brother was not bi, gay or trans. The marriage did not fail because my ex was Bi. We really did share a lot of common interests; the love of classical music, poetry, history, politics, camping to mention a few. I was the one who persuaded him to join CAMP Inc in 1971. The Campaign Against Moral Persecution. You may not have heard of this organisation. I had already applied for membership to support my friend who was a Lesbian when I met him. Unfortunately his mother and his elder brother's first wife told everyone that I had persuaded him that he was Bi and he did not have such thoughts until after he met me. This was despite the fact that he had live in male lovers at various stages after the divorce from his first wife and his house was right next door to his mother's house. No, they insisted, they were just friends from either uni or the athletics club who would stay overnight.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Joel Osteen's behavior is between him and God. Many people call themselves Christians but they are Christians in name only. He may be one of them. I choose to not believe him, I have never defended him.


What about those preachers who get involved in politics and urge their congregations to vote in a certain way? Any opinion except tax law?


----------



## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Why don't you change your word "LOVE" for "SEX?" I can love someone without sex. All they want is to "force" acceptance of their sexual behavior.


No one is forcing you to do anything. You don't have to participate in their private lives or even think about it.

They just want to spend their lives together and be happy. They want the same rights as any other tax paying citizen. That and to be left alone by nagging harpies.

Do you spend a lot of time thinking about other people having sex ? Is this something they teach in your church... spend lots of time thinking about other people you have never even met having sex ?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I am also a straight woman who has been standing with her LGBT friends since the late 1950s. Yes, even as a teenager back then I had friends who were LGBT. The brother of my then boyfriend's best mate went to Europe in 1958 as a male and came back nearly a year later as a girl. She was a very good friend even after I broke the relationship with that boyfriend. We lost contact when she went to England. I also stood with my second husband who was Bi, but I did not condone his extra marital affairs, regardless of who they were with. Unfortunately he was extremely mixed up, a result of the attitudes of those days. He also had an idealised version of marriage, he believed in the 'happy ever after model', it was just that his attitude towards sex that was more than mixed up. This was not the result of him being bi but because his mother told him repeatedly when he was a teenager that sex was dirty, disgusting, caused VD, etc, etc, etc. She was widowed at the time and was looking for a second husband. She did have boyfriends and her bedroom was through the wall from the bedroom my ex and his older brother shared. They had, unbeknown to her, placed a microphone under her bed and recorded her activities on the old reel to reel tape recorder. He told me he and his brother would then replay the tapes and listen to them when the mother was out of the house. No, she never knew of this activity of the boys. The main reason the marriage failed was because my ex was a mean, nasty, controlling ***** and he was often violent. His brother's two marriages also failed because he had the same traits, the mean, nasty ones, the older brother was not bi, gay or trans. The marriage did not fail because my ex was Bi. We really did share a lot of common interests; the love of classical music, poetry, history, politics, camping to mention a few. I was the one who persuaded him to join CAMP Inc in 1971. The Campaign Against Moral Persecution. You may not have heard of this organisation. I had already applied for membership to support my friend who was a Lesbian when I met him. Unfortunately his mother and his elder brother's first wife told everyone that I had persuaded him that he was Bi and he did not have such thoughts until after he met me. This was despite the fact that he had live in male lovers at various stages after the divorce from his first wife and his house was right next door to his mother's house. No, they insisted, they were just friends from either uni or the athletics club who would stay overnight.


Glad you got rid of that one. Sounds like a "hot mess" to me.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Dangrktty said:


> No one is forcing you to do anything. You don't have to participate in their private lives or even think about it.
> 
> They just want to spend their lives together and be happy. They want the same rights as any other tax paying citizen. That and to be left alone by nagging harpies.
> 
> Do you spend a lot of time thinking about other people having sex ? Is this something they teach in your church... spend lots of time thinking about other people you have never even met having sex ?


Is she lusting in her heart?


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> Is she lusting in her heart?


Sounds more like she's not getting any. If she can live without sex then they only reason other people (of the same gender) get together must be sex. They couldn't possibly love each other and have lives in common.

I often wonder why when people see a mixed couple (male/female) walking down the street holding hands or looking into each other's eyes, they tend to see sweetness, love...or at least the potential...but if it's two people of the same gender doing exactly the same thing, all they see is sex.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

The argument about how LGBT marriage is wrong for religious reasons holds no water. They are trying to foist their religion on others. Perhaps the LGBT haters would like to move to countries where they throw gay men off roof tops.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> The argument about how LGBT marriage is wrong for religious reasons holds no water. They are trying to foist their religion on others. Perhaps the LGBT haters would like to move to countries where they throw gay men off roof tops.


Or where American church people have 'helped' formulate laws allowing for the 'execution' of gay people. They were very disappointed in one of those countries when, after all their work and the actual passing of the law some sort of sanity returned and now the law only allows for life in prison.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> You don't have the right answer!


None of them do.

However, the Libs arguing with you Joey are so complete in their envy and anger over those who have more than they do. They have no idea why a Church is tax-exempt, actually automatically.

Obvious who is blessed and who isn't.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> None of them do.
> 
> However, the Libs arguing with you Joey are so complete in their envy and anger over those who have more than they do. They have no idea why a Church is tax-exempt, actually automatically.
> 
> Obvious who is blessed and who isn't.


Obvious who is delusional and who isn't. Isn't one enough?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Look up Van O'Steen's wealth - every penny of which is donated. Look at the fantastic mega-churches - tax exempt. Churches rake in billions every year.


My, are you ever envious. Take a look at the billions of dollars that Churches *give* each year as they bless, support and care for others.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Joey deserves every barb directed at her.
> 
> Stick around and you'll quickly understand why.
> 
> ...


I hope everyone who reads this post will report to Admin that DGreen needs to be silenced for speaking to another KPer in this manner; it should not be allowed.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Boy have you got that backwards.


No, she doesn't, you do.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Double glad you are not my accountant. And I feel really sorry for those you work for.


If your accountant doesn't agree with Joey, you need a new accountant. (more likely you don't understand what your accountant probably does)


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> I guess you will never get it right, so I will tell you.
> 
> A 501(c)(3) organization is tax exempt because they can send a receipt of the donation to the donor. Then the donor can use that amount as a tax deduction on their personal tax return, if they qualify.
> 
> ...


Bravo Joey. I love how those who don't know attempt to tell you what you don't know. Ridiculous!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> And churches have no income. Right.


Exactly! :thumbup:

Right, Churches have no income.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

DGreen said:


> What about those preachers who get involved in politics and urge their congregations to vote in a certain way? Any opinion except tax law?


Name five along with their Church and location that you know who has done as you claim. I've never heard a Pastor or Minister in any Church I've attended urge their Congregation to vote a certain way, and I've attended Church around the world and since I was a baby.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Obvious who is delusional and who isn't. Isn't one enough?


Oh, you are delusional? Heck of a problem you've got if you're delusional, don't understand tax law or how to define income and cannot understand The Bible nor what is explained to you as you try to discuss those topics.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> My, are you ever envious. Take a look at the billions of dollars that Churches *give* each year as they bless, support and care for others.


What does Joel Osteen focus charity efforts on? He and his wife focus on Feed the Children, a charity that aims to give food to starving children, especially in the third world. However, the charity has received an F rating from charity watchdog groups. Much of the money goes toward staff, fundraisers, and administrative costs little to food for children.


----------



## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Sounds more like she's not getting any. If she can live without sex then they only reason other people (of the same gender) get together must be sex. They couldn't possibly love each other and have lives in common.~~~~


jbandsma,

That was my next thought. You beat me to the punch.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Another one who only wants to silence what she doesn't want to hear. Are you the one who keeps harassing SL in PMs?

Even if you aren't, why are you afraid of letting anyone else say something you don't agree with. Nobody here has told you or Joey that you should be reported for being so ugly to everybody.

Cowards, the whole bunch of you.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Oh, you are delusional? Heck of a problem you've got if you're delusional, don't understand tax law or how to define income and cannot understand The Bible nor what is explained to you as you try to discuss those topics.


I understand the bible quite well. Book of fairy tales told by ancient goat herders.


----------



## Medieval Reenactor (Sep 3, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Name five along with their Church and location that you know who has done as you claim. I've never heard a Pastor or Minister in any Church I've attended urge their Congregation to vote a certain way, and I've attended Church around the world and since I was a baby.


1960. Baptist Church. Pryor, OK. Minister stood in pulpit and told congregation to not vote for John Kennedy as he was Roman Catholic and the country would be ruled by the Pope if he were elected.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Another one who only wants to silence what she doesn't want to hear. Are you the one who keeps harassing SL in PMs?
> 
> Even if you aren't, why are you afraid of letting anyone else say something you don't agree with. Nobody here has told you or Joey that you should be reported for being so ugly to everybody.
> 
> Cowards, the whole bunch of you.


I don't know what you're talking about re 'harassing SL in PMs' but, I don't care much either since I don't want to silence anyone. I guess you'll have to add 'paranoid' to your list of vices.

I'm not afraid of you or anyone regarding anything said. If I don't agree, I either state my opinion or don't say anything. I can tolerate differences, but like most Dems/Libs, you cannot. When you don't gain traction, you'll personally insult the one who doesn't agree with you. (what DGreen did)

The Cowards are those who cannot tolerate others opinions, speak to the truth, and resort to being bullies by attacking others for their beliefs and words.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

DGreen said:


> What does Joel Osteen focus charity efforts on? He and his wife focus on Feed the Children, a charity that aims to give food to starving children, especially in the third world. However, the charity has received an F rating from charity watchdog groups. Much of the money goes toward staff, fundraisers, and administrative costs little to food for children.


http://www.charitywatch.org/charitywatch-articles/feed-the-children-controversies-continue-charity-accused-of-overstating-its-work-in-haiti/29

Lovely group. Bugging offices, porn, filing false reports. Oh yes, the church GIVES so much. Bullshit.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> ...since I don't want to silence anyone.


You didn't say this?



knitpresentgifts said:


> I hope everyone who reads this post will report to Admin that DGreen needs to be silenced for speaking to another KPer in this manner; it should not be allowed.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> "You didn't say this?"





knitpresentgifts said:


> I hope everyone who reads this post will report to Admin that DGreen needs to be silenced for speaking to another KPer* in this manner*; it should not be allowed.


I absolutely DID say that! Said another way; DGreen should not be allowed to personally insult another KPer in such a vile way. That doesn't mean DGreen cannot voice her opinions and beliefs! However, no one should be allowed to speak of another as DGreen did Joeysomma. DGreen wan't offering her opinions/beliefs/facts on a topic, *she intentionally* wrote an entire post with the *sole purpose* of attacking another KPer. Meanwhile, DGreen, called the one she attacked 'a disgusting excuse for a human being.'

Ponder that a minute or two.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I absolutely DID say that! Said another way; DGreen should not be allowed to personally insult another KPer in such a vile way. That doesn't mean DGreen cannot voice her opinions and beliefs! However, no one should be allowed to speak of another as DGreen did Joeysomma. DGreen wan't offering her opinions/beliefs/facts on a topic, she intentionally wrote a post to attack another KPer.
> 
> What is so difficult for you to understand?


Let's see..That doesn't mean DGreen cannot voice her opinions and beliefs!

As long as she doesn't voice her opinions and beliefs that are contrary to what someone else thinks and points out that that other person is bat guano nuts?

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth and making yourself look totally ridiculous.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> *Gay marriage: Why Supreme Court got it wrong*
> 
> By Pastor Robert Jeffress ·Published June 26, 2015
> 
> I went to high school with Robert Jeffress - many students thought he was gay, include me. Years later when he married and became a minister, I was shocked!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I hope everyone who reads this post will report to Admin that DGreen needs to be silenced for speaking to another KPer in this manner; it should not be allowed.


But it is fine for your dear comrades to go on a tirade against Jewish people with lies about how they controlled the slave trade. And one of your very own who I especially liked praised those remarks. You are such a baby running to mommie for every slight. Fight your own battles- you are a grown up.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Let's see..That doesn't mean DGreen cannot voice her opinions and beliefs!
> 
> As long as she doesn't voice her opinions and beliefs that are contrary to what someone else thinks and points out that that other person is bat guano nuts?
> 
> You are talking out of both sides of your mouth and making yourself look totally ridiculous.


I'm not the one insulting others. That would be you and other Libs. Talk about ridiculous.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

GWPlver said:


> joeysomma said:
> 
> 
> > *Gay marriage: Why Supreme Court got it wrong*
> ...


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> But it is fine for your dear comrades to go on a tirade against Jewish people with lies about how they controlled the slave trade. And one of your very own who I especially liked praised those remarks. You are such a baby running to mommie for every slight. Fight your own battles- you are a grown up.


Show me where I went on a tirade against Jewish people with lies or running to mommie. I posted a piece written by a Rabbi on the slave trade, a reference *you* requested *on another thread* where it applied. If you don't like history, don't ask for references or read them.

I have no idea what the rest of your post refers to, as you certainly are not referring to me. You hold grudges without merit, grownups know better.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Show me where I went on a tirade against Jewish people with lies or running to mommie. I posted a piece written by a Rabbi on the slave trade, a reference you requested.
> 
> I have no idea what the rest of your post refers to, as you certainly are not referring to me.


Look at Jcarol, ignoramus, formally from Chicago and someone who asked that I do not mention her name who praised Jcarol's sentiments yet "loves" Israel. Go back to the confederate flag crap. You can quote any rabbi you find. Does not mean she is right.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> Look at Jcarol, ignoramus, formally from Chicago and someone who asked that I do not mention her name who praised Jcarol's sentiments yet "loves" Israel. Go back to the confederate flag crap. You can quote any rabbi you find. Does not mean she is right.


You need to get control of yourself SQM, and you have no command over me. I don't know Jcarol and she isn't my comrade nor 'one of my own.'


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Medieval Reenactor said:


> 1960. Baptist Church. Pryor, OK. Minister stood in pulpit and told congregation to not vote for John Kennedy as he was Roman Catholic and the country would be ruled by the Pope if he were elected.


In Australia the Democratic Labor Party was formed in the mid fifties. The priests urged people from the pulpit on Sundays to vote for the DLP and not the traditional Labor Party. I strongly remember the priest standing before us in the class room and telling us that as good Catholics we must vote for the DLP when we reached the voting age, which was 21 years at the time. We were also told to urge our parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles and older siblings to vote DLP. I remember that day so well because as a teenager I honestly believed the priest was overstepping the mark.

In 1960 the Australian Government was amending the Marriage Act to reduce the time period from 5 years to 2 years for people wanting a divorce on the grounds of legal separation. Remember this was before the No Fault Divorce laws were introduced. I remember the Priest in St Mary's Cathedral in Perth standing in the pulpit and not only telling the congregation to vote against any political party who dared introduce such a bill but also telling that to vote for a political party who supported the bill would be a cardinal sin and a stain on their soul.

More information, backed up by links so you are not just relying on my memory because I know I will be accused of having a faulty memory.

Parishioners outraged after election guide put in bulletin

helen Hawkes | 21st Mar 2015 6:00 AM

A 2015 State Election guide, placed in a Catholic church bulletin, has enraged local parishioners who say it is an infringement of their democratic rights.

The guide features a foreword by Bishop of Lismore Geoffrey Jarrett, in which he says: "This is the moment to cast our vote and, for us Christians, it means a vote in accordance with our conscience: that's a conscience tuned to the deepest truths, among other things the dignity of the human person, their right to religious freedom, the preciousness of life, marriage and the family, and the rights of parents to educate their children in a way that respects their religious and moral beliefs".

The guide includes information on how the three major parties stand on "abortion and protection of the unborn", euthanasia, marriage, Catholic schools and religious freedom".
Additionally it details how members of the Lower House and Upper House voted on Zoe's Law, the Rights of the Terminally Ill Bill, and Same-Sex Marriage.

Neville Kelly, a parishioner and president of the Ballina Labor branch said: "This is not the first occasion on which his honour has endeavoured to influence the faithful as to how they should vote.
"One would think he would have more than enough responsibility, looking after his own 'ballywick' at this stage in time, without the necessity to venture into the public domain in an endeavour to influence the voting outcome on March 28."

In the lead-up to the 2010 federal election and the 2011 New South Wales election, these claims escalated, being propounded by Members of Parliament, church leaders and representatives of think tanks. Any effect of this characterisation on the vote is tricky to quantify. Concretely, at least one Greens campaigner was prevented from distributing how-to-vote materials or displaying party advertising at a polling place because the polling place was a Catholic church whose priest objected to a Greens presence on church property. Two Greens candidates reported losing campaign workers because, as Catholics, the workers felt they could no longer volunteer for a movement their parish priest had denounced as anti-Christian.

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2013/08/27/3834302.htm


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You need to get control of yourself SQM, and you have no command over me.


Command you? I only command my cat with a 50% success rate. I responding to your inquiring post, Baby Girl.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> Command you? I only command my cat with a 50% success rate. I responding to your inquiring post, Baby Girl.


You're lost. I responded to your accusation. Won't again; futile.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

SQM said:


> Command you? I only command my cat with a 50% success rate. I responding to your inquiring post, Baby Girl.


Hmmm, she who would not be named apparently got up on the "grumpy" side of the bed today.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You're lost. I responded to your accusation. Won't again; futile.


My loss?????? Would only be so if I cared a whit about you. This is the best gift or present you can give me.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

SQM said:


> But it is fine for your dear comrades to go on a tirade against Jewish people with lies about how they controlled the slave trade. And one of your very own who I especially liked praised those remarks. You are such a baby running to mommie for every slight. Fight your own battles- you are a grown up.


DGreen merely described the behavior of a KP'er - she didn't post to them directly so what's to report? She simply stated her opinion. Just as I am doing now.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

The topic is gay marriage. Who cares about churches and tax laws? Boring subject really.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> KPG - As long as they are insulting me, I must be right! If I was wrong, they would be happy to *prove* me wrong. That they have not been able to do.
> 
> I do get a good laugh at their "childish" insults.


Agreed! However, whether you (or anyone) is right or wrong, they intentionally choose to personally insult anyone who is not a Lib or Dem as they are. (nothing to do with the topic being discussed)

Kudos for you for continually speaking the truth and posting the facts. You're correct, if they had a valid argument and the facts on their side, they would present them.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> The topic is gay marriage. Who cares about churches and tax laws? Boring subject really.


Apparently Jbandsma, does. She is the person who continued the conversation.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Apparently Jbandsma, does.


Don't daylilies close up at sundown? That means we only have 10 hours to go. Praise nature.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Agreed! However, whether you (or anyone) is right or wrong, they intentionally choose to personally insult anyone who is not a Lib or Dem as they are. (nothing to do with the topic being discussed)
> 
> Kudos for you for continually speaking the truth and posting the facts. You're correct, if they had a valid argument and the facts on their side, they would present them.


Why do your abundant comments say the same thing over and over? Oh, I know, it's because you can't get out of the way of your hatred.

It would be such a breath of fresh air to see you actually make a cogent argument and then debate it intelligently instead of this high school gibberish you persist with. Now go tell mommy about this bad egg!!!


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## Catarry (Apr 10, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Who are you, to tell me my beliefs are misguided?
> Your opinions are very offensive and closed minded. You don't care that the rights in the First Amendment are gone.
> 
> _Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances._


I don't understand how allowing same sex couples to marry hinders your free exercise of religion. The Supreme Court decision applies only to civil marriage and the rules that apply to it.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> The topic is gay marriage. Who cares about churches and tax laws? Boring subject really.


Churches are using their money and influence to try to stop same gender marriages from happening. Including encouraging states to break the law to prevent it.

They use their tax status to help them. And they hate the fact that tax laws governing marriage will now extend to couples they find "icky".


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Catarry said:


> I don't understand how allowing same sex couples to marry hinders your free exercise of religion. The Supreme Court decision applies only to civil marriage and the rules that apply to it.


They can't get it that not allowing something they hate is NOT persecution. If you can still go to the church of your choice, pray the way you want, there, get married in that church, then it doesn't affect you.

Might be an older analogy but it's the same thing as wanting to outlaw donuts because you can't eat them.

But, of course, it's always been necessary for the churches (especially the evangelical ones) to have someone to hate. Dark skin, other religions, no religion, sexual orientation. They get the howling sh..s when told that the power of the law says they can hate all they want but taking action against what they hate just isn't going to happen with impunity any more.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Catarry said:


> I don't understand how allowing same sex couples to marry hinders your free exercise of religion. The Supreme Court decision applies only to civil marriage and the rules that apply to it.


I don't understand the uproar either. No one is losing any rights - but a long persecuted group is finally gaining some that they should have had all along.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

A business is not a religion, Joey, and businesses are governed by eoc. Baking a cake or doing flowers is NOT participating in any kind of marriage, or any other ceremony. 

Yes, there will be suits...against people breaking the law.

A business is NOT a religion.


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## Catarry (Apr 10, 2012)

DGreen said:


> The ban was voted in largely due to a massive infusion of cash by the Mormon Church and their efforts to motivate the fundies. Last time I checked, Mormons are not exactly representative of Californians.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Churches are using their money and influence to try to stop same gender marriages from happening. Including encouraging states to break the law to prevent it.
> 
> They use their tax status to help them. And they hate the fact that tax laws governing marriage will now extend to couples they find "icky".


Names, staff, location, facts, please ...



jbandsma said:


> They can't get it that not allowing something they hate is NOT persecution. If you can still go to the church of your choice, pray the way you want, there, get married in that church, then it doesn't affect you.


jbandsma, Sounds like you are continuing to talk out of both sides of YOUR mouth and cannot tolerate or allow any one who doesn't agree with your views.

btw;

I'm thinking about a going into an Islamic Mosque and asking to be married by a Pastor wearing no head covering and an a well above the knee, wedding dress. Then I'd like her to head to a Buddhist Temple and demand all the gold leaf, statues, lotus flowers, Buddhas, etc., be removed because I find them offensive and want to take some pictures inside. Then wouldn't it be fun to demand a Jewish deli prepare me a ham and pork sausage Easter dinner for take out (my celebration day) because I don't want to cook on that Holy Day? Actually, delivery would be best.

Perhaps I'll go to a book store owned by an atheist and demand a new Bible, King James Version, along with a study guide to continue my Christian learnings and education. Naturally, that very Bible will be used in my ceremony renewing my wedding vows.

Oh, I want to celebrate my wedding anniversary with a wedding cake with writing on it that reads, "Jesus is The Way, The Truth and The Life," and I want it to be baked by an atheist bakery owner. I'll need an Amish photographer to use a digital camera to videotape my wedding and reception too.

Of course, I want the ceremony on Yon Kippur in the Mormom Tabernacle (it is sooooo beautiful) where the choir will sing the Hallelujah Chorus in its entirety, in drag. Did I mention the wedding party will be dressed in full tribal American Indian clothing and makeup but all the wait staff MUST be gay or transgender and whether male or female, wear high heels?

I intend to use my resale tax exempt certificate to purchase all the necessities of my celebration and expect, no, demand, not to be charged any sales tax on my purchases of goods and services.

I'll be accommodated, won't I, Jbandsma? Free speech and religious freedom and tolerance and all that, *Right?* Doesn't affect anyone to do it the way I want it done, *right?* After all, these people are out to serve, and make a profit, so they must do as I want.

If, not, I guess I'll sue all those who won't allow me my religious freedoms and rights and heart's desire because all those people, institutions and organizations will be breaking the law otherwise.


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## krestiekrew (Aug 24, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Names, staff, location, facts, please.
> 
> I'm thinking about going into an Islamic mosque and asking to be married by a Pastor.
> ***cut middle of this mess out***
> Did I mention the wedding party will be dressed in full American Indian clothing but all the wait staff MUST be gay or transgender?


If you insist on spouting this...at least get it right! 
It is a Muslim Mosque, that does not have pastors, they have Imam's. Look it up.
Next don't insult my race by calling it clothing, it is called regalia that is worn to what you call celebrations, that would be Powwow to you. 
I find it amazing that a nice civil thread that some of us were doing nothing but happily chatting away turned into a crap slinging fiasco by a minority. All those in favor of this chat, please ignore those that don't seem to favor the topic. I too admit I was irritated and gave a short history lesson trying to point out a few facts...let's just carry on for the KP'ers that were happy for a victory in their lives.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> You know nothing of which you speak, but you blather on anyway.


 :thumbup:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

krestiekrew said:


> If you insist on spouting this...at least get it right!
> It is a Muslim Mosque, that does not have pastors, they have Imam's. Look it up.
> Next don't insult my race by calling it clothing, it is called regalia that is worn to what you call celebrations, that would be Powwow to you.
> I find it amazing that a nice civil thread that some of us were doing nothing but happily chatting away turned into a crap slinging fiasco by a minority. All those in favor of this chat, please ignore those that don't seem to favor the topic. I too admit I was irritated and gave a short history lesson trying to point out a few facts...let's just carry on for the KP'ers that were happy for a victory in their lives.


I know it can be called regalia just as any distinctive clothing used for formal or special occasions can be called regalia, that word isn't specific to Native Americans nor did I insult NA.

"Muslim" refers to a person who follows the religion of Islam. The proper description is for example, an Islamic building in which Muslims are in prayer. I didn't insult nor use the incorrect words.

You completely missed the point of my post. I know of which I spoke, so no need to try to correct my words; they were accurate.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Sure seems dishonest to me. They rake it in, and those in charge spend it. Joey, do you really think that is what God wants?


You can not say that about all churches. It is like saying all apples are perfect.

Joey knows what God expect from her.

The Churches I have attended are small and they do not rake in money to spend on themselves . They spend it on those in communities that they live in. They help those in need. They help Missionaries who go to other countries . They are there for everyone. Most pastors are not paid enough to live on. So to state that all churches are money hungry and not using it for the good of the people they serve is false. Do you attend such a church, then would suggest you find a different one.


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## Catarry (Apr 10, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Even that has been quashed.
> http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/06/22/3672613/right-birth-control-just-won-significant-victory-date-post-hobby-lobby-case/


 Not quashed yet. 
The Hobby Lobby decision came from the Supreme Court...a lower court has raised questions, so at some point the issues raised by Hobby Lobby ruling may be revisited on the contraception issue. 
I'll bet it will be back to court again when equal marriage issues arise...for instance, what happens when a gay Hobby Lobby employee tries to include his/her spouse on the insurance policy? Of course, coming out may mean Hobby Lobby can fire that person since there's no national protection for gay employees.


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## Catarry (Apr 10, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I'm glad it has worked for you! You must have a good supplement to pay for that much. Medicare will only pay 80% of part B.
> 
> Have you read the book that states what they will and not cover, and then how much of it they will pay for? If a certain test is necessary, they decide how often they will pay for the test. If it is every year, every two years or more.
> 
> Medicaid will also decide which drugs they will pay for, If your doctor writes a prescription for a drug they do not think it necessary, It can not be purchased personally or they could possibly loose Medicaid.


Medicaid and Medicare are NOT the same...which are you talking about?


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## Catarry (Apr 10, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Wrong on sales tax. All non profits are required to pay state sales tax on tangible purchases. The only exemption from sales tax is with a valid business license when purchasing inventory for resale.
> 
> Still have my license. Could get a very large fine for using it to buy goods for personal use without paying tax on them.


 Maybe sales tax rules are state-by-state. My aunt, a Dominican nun, claimed sales tax exemption on every purchase she made here in NYS.


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## Catarry (Apr 10, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Funny how states have different laws.


 prime snark!


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Catarry said:


> Not quashed yet.
> The Hobby Lobby decision came from the Supreme Court...a lower court has raised questions, so at some point the issues raised by Hobby Lobby ruling may be revisited on the contraception issue.
> I'll bet it will be back to court again when equal marriage issues arise...for instance, what happens when a gay Hobby Lobby employee tries to include his/her spouse on the insurance policy? Of course, coming out may mean Hobby Lobby can fire that person since there's no national protection for gay employees.


I thought I saw a posting on Facebook - a letter from the owner of Hobby Lobby - noting that he may close all the Hobby Lobby stores if the current ruling is struck down. Sounds like a 2-year old throwing a tantrum for not getting their way. What about the employees who would be out of jobs and the community in general. Guess he wouldn't care about them.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Catarry said:


> Maybe sales tax rules are state-by-state. My aunt, a Dominican nun, claimed sales tax exemption on every purchase she made here in NYS.


Your guess is correct. Each state determines the sales tax rates and rules. In fact, there are states that have no sales tax.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> His relationship with Jesus Christ is much more important than any relationship with someone in this world. His life on earth is but a blink of an eye compared to eternity.


The perfect example of what is our absolute right of religious freedom!


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

What someone does in their personal life is their business. However, if you run a business you can't discriminate--that's been a law for quite a long time. A person's particular brand of religion might lead them to hold against Jews or black people, but they can't refuse them service. The same applies if a customer is LGBT. That's just the way it is. As a rather crude but apt childhood saying goes, "tough titty said the kitty when the milk ran dry."


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> What someone does in their personal life is their business. However, if you run a business you can't discriminate--that's been a law for quite a long time. A person's particular brand of religion might lead them to hold against Jews or black people, but they can't refuse them service. The same applies if a customer is LGBT. That's just the way it is. As a rather crude but apt childhood saying goes, "tough titty said the kitty when the milk ran dry."


Perfect! Please point me to every Jewish bakery that will make up cupcakes with the Swasticka decorating them as well as any bakery owned by a Muslim who will decorate cakes for Christmas with a cross and the word Messiah. Know any good atheists who will make a creche and the clothing for the black congregants' nativity display or performed drama of the Christmas Story in the South Carolina AME Church? Or are only the Christian Churches and Christian business owners to obey the newly minted law and go against what could be their deeply held religious beliefs?

I hadn't heard the LGBT community was held by the SCOTUS to be a special class to be protected have you?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> They can't get it that not allowing something they hate is NOT persecution. If you can still go to the church of your choice, pray the way you want, there, get married in that church, then it doesn't affect you.
> 
> Might be an older analogy but it's the same thing as wanting to outlaw donuts because you can't eat them.
> 
> But, of course, it's always been necessary for the churches (especially the evangelical ones) to have someone to hate. Dark skin, other religions, no religion, sexual orientation. They get the howling sh..s when told that the power of the law says they can hate all they want but taking action against what they hate just isn't going to happen with impunity any more.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Perfect! Please point me to every Jewish bakery that will make up cupcakes with the Swasticka decorating them as well as any bakery owned by a Muslim who will decorate cakes for Christmas with a cross and the word Messiah. Know any good atheists who will make a creche and the clothing for the black congregants' nativity display or performed drama of the Christmas Story in the South Carolina AME Church? Or are only the Christian Churches and Christian business owners to obey the newly minted law and go against what could be their deeply held religious beliefs?quote]
> 
> Yep, I know an atheist who carves crèches because he knows many people enjoy them. He doesn't discriminate - he is a smart business man.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> His relationship with Jesus Christ is much more important than any relationship with someone in this world. His life on earth is but a blink of an eye compared to eternity.


I think it's a marketing ploy on his part.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

In the grand scheme, there has not been that many lawsuits. While I cannot speak for all LGBT individuals, I will say that my friends who are LGBT would not sue but go to another bakery. And actually, they would probably know what bakery to go to as some are actually owned by LGBT individuals. So I still think people are overacting. People sue for many, many reasons.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> The perfect example of what is our absolute right of religious freedom!


Religious yes, federal/state - no.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> jbandsma, Sounds like you are continuing to talk out of both sides of YOUR mouth and cannot tolerate or allow any one who doesn't agree with your views.
> 
> btw;
> 
> I'm thinking about a going into an Islamic Mosque and asking to be married by a Pastor wearing no head covering and an a well above the knee, wedding dress. Then I'd like her to head to a Buddhist Temple and demand all the gold leaf, statues, lotus flowers, Buddhas, etc., be removed because I find them offensive and want to take some pictures inside. Then wouldn't it be fun to demand a Jewish deli prepare me a ham and pork sausage Easter dinner for take out (my celebration day) because I don't want to cook on that Holy Day? Actually, delivery would be best.


One of the silliest arguments ever put forth by the anti-LBT forces. Business are free to stock whatever they choose, but the goods must then be available to ALL customers.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> How about going to a gay bakery, and tell them to decorate a cake saying "Jesus Christ is Lord?" or "Homosexuals are sinners?" If they say no, would that be discrimination?


Who knows? Those among the anti-LGBT forces who've tried to set up unsuspecting bakers haven't had the brains to request a cake with a relatively benign pro-Christian message. No, they asked that undeniably offensive things like "God hates gays" or a image of two men with a red X through them--something that has been identified by the courts as an " explicit, unmistakable, offensive message".


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> knitpresentgifts said:
> 
> 
> > Perfect! Please point me to every Jewish bakery that will make up cupcakes with the Swasticka decorating them as well as any bakery owned by a Muslim who will decorate cakes for Christmas with a cross and the word Messiah. Know any good atheists who will make a creche and the clothing for the black congregants' nativity display or performed drama of the Christmas Story in the South Carolina AME Church? Or are only the Christian Churches and Christian business owners to obey the newly minted law and go against what could be their deeply held religious beliefs?quote]
> ...


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> Yep, I know an atheist who carves crèches because he knows many people enjoy them. He doesn't discriminate - he is a smart business man.


Those business I've heard about who were sued by a person/s in the LBGT population didn't discriminate either. They were smart business people and too many were destroyed by none other than ignorant activists looking to hurt/destroy/ridicule another human being or business they couldn't tolerate. How proud they must be for showing their true rainbow of colors and their obvious hyprocrisy.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> Religious yes, federal/state - no.


I don't know where you live, (Dallas, TX?) but I live in a COUNTRY, called the United States of America, (includes both Fed/State) which is governed by a Constitution which grants religious freedoms to ALL.

I guess I should add; so far. Tomorrow is another day.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> How about going to a gay bakery, and tell them to decorate a cake saying "Jesus Christ is Lord?" or "Homosexuals are sinners?" If they say no, would that be discrimination? Oh! I forgot! Homosexuals have special rights that the normal people don't have! No equality there!


Joey, it would be a very interesting exercise. I would love to see it done or do it myself to satisfy my curiosity. I simply don't have the time myself. Maybe the man who exposed Planned Parenthood and ACORN will take it on.

It has never been about discrimination - it has always been about those who are intolerant of others that don't agree with the Liberal mindset and beliefs.

Same with the 'confederate flag' saga; it isn't about that banner, it is about complete government control, the nanny state/country and the destruction of our Country, its original basis of law and foundings, rights, beliefs and principles; the complete and absolute destruction of a person's soul.

It is fulfilling the prophesy outlined in The Bible and will come to pass.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

GWPlver said:


> The topic is gay marriage. Who cares about churches and tax laws? Boring subject really.


 :thumbup:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> I would not be participating in their gay wedding ceremony. They have already decided their fate.
> 
> Now with this decision, I would tell them I will provide them with the name of another tax preparer that will be better able to help them. I am inadequate to properly provide for their needs.


Good for you, Joey. I'm not anti-LBGT but have specific beliefs and ideals from which I will not falter either. My LBGT friends and I know, love and understand one another and our beliefs do not come between us.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I guess you have forgotten about Hobby Lobby. The owner was able to conduct his business following his personal Religious beliefs. The Supreme Court agreed.


Hobby Lobby was not a test of civil rights and laws against discrimination.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I would not be participating in their gay wedding ceremony. They have already decided their fate.
> 
> Now with this decision, I would tell them I will provide them with the name of another tax preparer that will be better able to help them. I am inadequate to properly provide for their needs.


I'd say hats off to you, Joey, for standing firm on your religious beliefs (however wrong they may be), but you're still copping out with your apparent refusal to tell prospective gay clients exactly why you're "inadequate to properly provide for their needs". Kind of like those gutless restaurant owners who don't have the courage to turn gay folks away at the door and instead sabotage their food while it's still in the kitchen.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

GWPlver said:


> I thought I saw a posting on Facebook - a letter from the owner of Hobby Lobby - noting that he may close all the Hobby Lobby stores if the current ruling is struck down. Sounds like a 2-year old throwing a tantrum for not getting their way. What about the employees who would be out of jobs and the community in general. Guess he wouldn't care about them.


He's threatened this before. We can only hope.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Actually, this same sex marriage has nothing to do with LOVE or marriage. It is to tear down traditional marriage and to make marriage worthless. Also to control anyone who speaks or acts against them. Then to silence Christians. Born again Christians are the only enemy of Satan. These Homo-activists are members of Satan's Army. Presently they are winning. But God is in control, and he will be the final winner!


Yep. The entire ordeal is to change the very definition of marriage as defined by God. I expect we'll now see people who want to marry more than one person, of any sex, to multiple people (regardless of male/female/undecided) and next to marry an animal or doorstop or whatever the heck comes into their heads. The courts are now making the decisions for the American people, so anything is game. No more will Congress create the laws or uphold the laws on which our Country was founded. Now it will be up to whomever is elected, appointed or takes over by force.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> It was about the freedom to act in accord with their religious beliefs. Do you have anything written, where they have denied to sell anything to a homosexual?


Ooooh, I know her answer! Corps are NOT people, hence, Hobby Lobby couldn't have written anything nor denied to sell to a homosexual. So, no, Joey, she'll have zero proof and an excuse 'cause HL is only a corporation.

Then she'll demand to overturn Citizens United! :-D


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Actually, this same sex marriage has nothing to do with LOVE or marriage. It is to tear down traditional marriage and to make marriage worthless. Also to control anyone who speaks or acts against them. Then to silence Christians. Born again Christians are the only enemy of Satan. These Homo-activists are members of Satan's Army. Presently they are winning. But God is in control, and he will be the final winner!


KPG has gay friends that "know, love, and understand one another" while Joey sees them as "members of Satan's army"--yet somehow they're political cohorts and pals. Well, they say opposites do attract. smh


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Tenimi a Peara he kino said:


> No, don't know how the law, when argued would work out in that detail. But possibly it would be determined they'd have to make the cake, but not necessarily the writing.


Excellent point. In fact, the vast majority of anti-LGBT bakers who've run afoul of the law have done so by refusing to bake a cake--any cake--that's going to be featured in a gay wedding.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> But they will bake any other type of cake! Not a "wedding cake."


Yes, and Jim Crow backers used to argue that restaurants in the South weren't really segregated as long they allowed African-Americans to go to the takeout window or eat their food standing up at the counter. There's no such thing as just "a little discrimination"--either customers are treated exactly the same or they're not.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> But they will bake any other type of cake! Not a "wedding cake."


That's their loss. Some will cut off their noses to spite their face ( a very republican trait.) Homophobe bakers are doing just that. If losing business makes them happy, then so be it. There are many less bigoted bakers who would be glad to have the extra business.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> I can talk (write) to people that do not agree with everything I say. I'm talking (writing) to you.
> 
> I am to hate the sin (homosexuality), but love the sinner.


Exactly, Joey. I think that simple concept is too complex for susanmos to understand. Besides, she constantly attempts to analyze and describe us while not knowing us or how we think beyond what we write on KP.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Exactly, Joey. I think that simple concept is too complex for her to understand.


Stilll stirring up the s%*t, KPG?? Not surprised that you would fly in to disrupt another discussion. People like you are ruining this site.


----------



## brucew (May 7, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Actually, this same sex marriage has nothing to do with LOVE or marriage. It is to tear down traditional marriage and to make marriage worthless. Also to control anyone who speaks or acts against them. Then to silence Christians. Born again Christians are the only enemy of Satan. These Homo-activists are members of Satan's Army. Presently they are winning. But God is in control, and he will be the final winner!


My marriage to my husband has everything to do with love and commitment. I have no desire to tear down anybody's marriage. The straight people have been doing a good job of that themselves with half the marriages ending in divorce. If you feel that the marriage equality is going to ruin your marriage then you should look deeper into your own relationship. I do not know of a single straight couple who has broken up over my marriage.
You stated earlier that we have more rights than others. Please list them so I can start claiming them.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I can talk (write) to people that do not agree with everything I say. I'm talking (writing) to you.
> 
> I am to hate the sin (homosexuality), but love the sinner.


Okay, if that is the way it is, then why do these bakers refuse to bake a wedding cake? Aren't they also supposed to love the "sinner" who is ordering the cake? Nobody is asking the baker to perform homosexual acts. According to you that's the sin right? Funny that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality being an abomination in the New Testament. And that is where you bible bangers are right now, right? In the state of Grace?
Please explain your reasoning.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

brucew said:


> My marriage to my husband has everything to do with love and commitment. I have no desire to tear down anybody's marriage. The straight people have been doing a good job of that themselves with half the marriages ending in divorce. If you feel that the marriage equality is going to ruin your marriage then you should look deeper into your own relationship. I do not know of a single straight couple who has broken up over my marriage.
> You stated earlier that we have more rights than others. Please list them so I can start claiming them.


 :thumbup:


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Yep. The entire ordeal is to change the very definition of marriage as defined by God. I expect we'll now see people who want to marry more than one person, of any sex, to multiple people (regardless of male/female/undecided) and next to marry an animal or doorstop or whatever the heck comes into their heads. The courts are now making the decisions for the American people, so anything is game. No more will Congress create the laws or uphold the laws on which our Country was founded. Now it will be up to whomever is elected, appointed or takes over by force.


That's your god. Your religion has no right to push around other people.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Stilll stirring up the s%*t, KPG?? Not surprised that you would fly in to disrupt another discussion. People like you are ruining this site.


Hmm, that's funny. I've been involved in an active discussion on this thread for the better part of the day with many different people communicating with me throughout. In fact, I would guess more people have responded to me at least as much as any other person. Then, suddenly you appear and offer nothing but a swear and insults.

I'll leave it up to each KPer to decide who flew in to disrupt the conversation.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

brucew said:


> My marriage to my husband has everything to do with love and commitment. I have no desire to tear down anybody's marriage. The straight people have been doing a good job of that themselves with half the marriages ending in divorce. If you feel that the marriage equality is going to ruin your marriage then you should look deeper into your own relationship. I do not know of a single straight couple who has broken up over my marriage.
> You stated earlier that we have more rights than others. Please list them so I can start claiming them.


Excellent :thumbup:


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> That's your god. Your religion has no right to push around other people.


I'm not aware "my God" or "my religion" pushed anyone around.

You are correct in the USA NO religion can push anyone around as ALL have religious freedoms.

That is to say until the SCOTUS decided to lift that Constitutional right.

Now, I expect lots of pushing against the Christians at a minimum.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Actually, this same sex marriage has nothing to do with LOVE or marriage. It is to tear down traditional marriage and to make marriage worthless. Also to control anyone who speaks or acts against them. Then to silence Christians. Born again Christians are the only enemy of Satan. These Homo-activists are members of Satan's Army. Presently they are winning. But God is in control, and he will be the final winner!


How does the marriage of two gay people make marriage worthless? Please be as explicit as possible.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

brucew said:


> My marriage to my husband has everything to do with love and commitment. I have no desire to tear down anybody's marriage. The straight people have been doing a good job of that themselves with half the marriages ending in divorce. If you feel that the marriage equality is going to ruin your marriage then you should look deeper into your own relationship. I do not know of a single straight couple who has broken up over my marriage.
> You stated earlier that we have more rights than others. Please list them so I can start claiming them.


I don't think any reasonable or half-way intelligent person believes what Joey claims about a mythical "gay agenda." She's a well-known conspiracy theorist and her statements about homosexuality fall in line with her illogical and nonsensical beliefs about a lot of other things. Think "chemtrails" and the threat of the "new world order." Of course, marriage equality has the additional dimension of religious "persecution" so she's all over it.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> How does the marriage of two gay people make marriage worthless? Please be as explicit as possible.


Don't hold your breath, Peacegoddess. She has been asked that question before and never comes up with anything - in fact she usually logs off within minutes.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm not aware "my God" or "my religion" pushed anyone around.
> 
> You are correct in the USA NO religion can push anyone around as ALL have religious freedoms.
> 
> ...


You still have the right to practice your religion. What freedom have you personally lost?

I am Catholic. I haven't lost any of my religious freedom. I can go to church if and when I please. I can pray and worship as much as I want.
What have you lost?


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Hmm, that's funny. I've been involved in an active discussion on this thread for the better part of the day with many different people communicating with me throughout. In fact, I would guess more people have responded to me at least as much as any other person. Then, suddenly you appear and offer nothing but a swear and insults.
> 
> I'll leave it up to each KPer to decide who flew in to disrupt the conversation.


Well I've been swearing (to myself) reading your uneducated posts. BTW typing #&:#+! Isn't swearing. You interpret it that way.


----------



## Loistec (Jan 25, 2011)

Here is a win for support of Marriage Equality!

"A photographer in Florida says he lost a client after he showed his support online for marriage equality. His response to the situation has won him legions of fans. 
Following the U.S. Supreme Courts landmark decision to legalize gay marriage nationwide last week, Clinton Brentwood Lee of Brentwood Photography took to Facebook to show his support for the decision, changing his profile picture and cover photo. 
Lee says a client later contacted him to say that they would no longer be using [his] services for their upcoming wedding. 
My fiancé and I support traditional marriage between a man and a woman and dont want to our money going to places that supports otherwise [sic], the client allegedly wrote.
The photographer shared a screenshot of the exchange on Facebook Saturday, with the caption: Lost a client for supporting gay marriage. But that's ok! We love everyone, even this now former client who may not have liked our reply. Lol.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7685058?utm_hp_ref=tw


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Well I've been swearing (to myself) reading your uneducated posts. BTW typing #&:#+! Isn't swearing. You interpret it that way.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm not aware "my God" or "my religion" pushed anyone around.
> 
> You are correct in the USA NO religion can push anyone around as ALL have religious freedoms.
> 
> ...


You wrote:
" The entire ordeal is to change the very definition of marriage as defined by God."

I'm saying again. That is your god.

We are a government of the people and by the people.

We are not a government by your god.


----------



## brucew (May 7, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> You wrote:
> " The entire ordeal is to change the very definition of marriage as defined by God."
> 
> I'm saying again. That is your god.
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## brucew (May 7, 2012)

Can an atheist baker refuse to make a cake for a religious wedding ceremony or would that be discrimination?


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## burgher (Feb 9, 2013)

Hooray they did something good


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> Well I've been swearing (to myself) reading your uneducated posts. BTW typing #&:#+! Isn't swearing. You interpret it that way.


Let's see, it was just four days ago when you were swearing, calling others insulting names and telling me I was ignorant.

I told you then you'll not prove me ignorant, but you're welcome to say whatever you wish.

I will tell you now, if you cannot discern the implied meaning of "s%*t" I cannot help you, and you certainly haven't proven my posts are ignorant OR uneducated.

Perhaps you should not read my posts so you aren't bothered by them.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> You can not say that about all churches. It is like saying all apples are perfect.
> 
> Joey knows what God expect from her.
> 
> The Churches I have attended are small and they do not rake in money to spend on themselves . They spend it on those in communities that they live in. They help those in need. They help Missionaries who go to other countries . They are there for everyone. Most pastors are not paid enough to live on. So to state that all churches are money hungry and not using it for the good of the people they serve is false. Do you attend such a church, then would suggest you find a different one.


I was talking about the huge Churches, not ordinary small Churches.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> You wrote:
> " The entire ordeal is to change the very definition of marriage as defined by God."
> 
> I'm saying again. That is your god.
> ...


How enlightening. Thanks for repeating my words.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Perfect! Please point me to every Jewish bakery that will make up cupcakes with the Swasticka decorating them as well as any bakery owned by a Muslim who will decorate cakes for Christmas with a cross and the word Messiah. Know any good atheists who will make a creche and the clothing for the black congregants' nativity display or performed drama of the Christmas Story in the South Carolina AME Church? Or are only the Christian Churches and Christian business owners to obey the newly minted law and go against what could be their deeply held religious beliefs?
> 
> I hadn't heard the LGBT community was held by the SCOTUS to be a special class to be protected have you?


Typical straw man argument from the right, immediately flinging out wild and inane "examples." A typical one goes along the lines of "so now if someone wants to marry their dog, that's OK?" This swatiska argument is about a pertinent as saying that homosexuals will be flooding Christian bakeries with orders for dildos on cakes.

And I get tired of hearing folks say that LGBTs are asking for "special" rights or protections. They are entitled to the SAME rights as everyone else--and that includes not being discriminated against.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> Typical straw man argument from the right, immediately flinging out wild and inane "examples." A typical one goes along the lines of "so now if someone wants to marry their dog, that's OK?" This swatiska argument is about a pertinent as saying that homosexuals will be flooding Christian bakeries with orders for dildos on cakes.
> 
> And I get tired of hearing folks say that LGBTs are asking for "special" rights or protections. They are entitled to the SAME rights as everyone else--and that includes not being discriminated against.


Typical Lib straw man - walk into a bakery, identify as a gay couple wanting a Christian baker to produce a cake with wordings or something against the beliefs of the Christian baker and then sue them for not providing the service or screaming discrimination.

My examples were EXACTLY like those of the LBGT people who have already stomped on and pushed their extreme and unsolicited views on Christians for the SOLE purpose to bring down whoever they attacked.

Only difference? The Libs, like you, will deny those facts.

Christians, and ALL people of any religious faith are entitled to the SAME rights as everyone else - and that includes NOT being
targeted or discriminated against BECAUSE of their religious beliefs.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> You wrote:
> " The entire ordeal is to change the very definition of marriage as defined by God."
> 
> I'm saying again. That is your god.
> ...


Aside from the obvious insanity that their god defined marriage, biblical marriage was nothing that even closely resembles the modern religious idea of "one man and one woman."

I'm more and more amused by the religious fanatics' flat-out unqualified statements that they know what their god wants. One must wonder where this cosmic information comes from and furthermore, that the Christian god (if gods actually existed, which they don't) speaks the "truth" above all other gods; the Christian god is the defining authority for the entire universe.

Joey claims that "Born again Christians are the only enemy of Satan."

Let's think about that statement for a moment. Assuming there was such a thing as satan (which there is not), she is excluding the entire sum of mankind, including other Christians, except those who hold her own particular and peculiar beliefs. Her church/belief system and only THAT one is correct. How did she come by this remarkable privilege, and what fountain of innate wisdom told her that among all the myriad religions, hers alone knows the truth?

Considering the many other obviously insane beliefs she holds, one can only conclude she is devoid of any powers of deductive reasoning.

Of course, there are those (we all know who they are) who will claim that attacks on Joey are some warped expression of jealousy or lack of knowledge on my part. To which I can honestly answer, I recognize insanity when I see it.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

brucew said:


> Can an atheist baker refuse to make a cake for a religious wedding ceremony or would that be discrimination?


As an atheist, my guess is that the atheist baker doesn't give a crap about his customer's beliefs. He would bake the cake and not give it another thought.

I say that because as an atheist, I know that I and others who believe as I do are surrounded and immersed in a Christian/religious culture. We are very tolerant - we have to be. If atheists refused to interact or do business with those of faith we would be in a real pickle. So we laugh at the fools and go about our business.

Until they try to force their religion on us, which is a different argument completely.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Typical Lib straw man - walk into a bakery, identify as a gay couple wanting a Christian baker to produce a cake with wordings or something against the beliefs of the Christian baker and then sue them for not providing the service or screaming discrimination.
> 
> My examples were EXACTLY like those of the LBGT people who have already stomped on and pushed their extreme and unsolicited views on Christians for the SOLE purpose to bring down whoever they attacked.
> 
> Only difference? The Libs, like you, will deny those facts.


ANY business that refuses service to anyone for reasons like that can be--and deserves to be sued. If that so-called Christian business refused service to someone because they were a mixed race couple, they'd be sued. You can argue all you like, but the same thing holds if they are refusing service to LGBTs.

Why is it that simply asking for equal rights is always equated by some as "pushing" things in someone's face or stomping on religious rights?

But, you know, this whole argument is moot--within 20 years equal rights for LGBTs will be just as much another fact of our society as those for other minorities. All this angst will be wondered at and young people will be startled by the thought that LGBTs were ever discriminated against. Just as they do now regarding black Americans.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Aside from the obvious insanity that their god defined marriage, biblical marriage was nothing that even closely resembles the modern religious idea of "one man and one woman."
> 
> I'm more and more amused by the religious fanatics' flat-out unqualified statements that they know what their god wants. One must wonder where this cosmic information comes from and furthermore, that the Christian god (if gods actually existed, which they don't) speaks the "truth" above all other gods; the Christian god is the defining authority for the entire universe.
> 
> ...


No idea. I'm rather surprised though that some of her pals over on D & P--the ones who are Catholic or Jewish, at least--don't find this highly offensive.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> No idea. I'm rather surprised though that some of her pals over on D & P--the ones who are Catholic or Jewish, at least--don't find this highly offensive.


Anyone who is not a "born again" Christian should be offended by this. Put another way, everyone outside that exclusive circle condones the works of satan. Of course, I don't believe in satan, so I'll add that the idea of "satan" can also be construed as the equivalent of pure evil.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> ANY business that refuses service to anyone for reasons like that can be--and deserves to be sued. If that so-called Christian business refused service to someone because they were a mixed race couple, they'd be sued. You can argue all you like, but the same thing holds if they are refusing service to LGBTs.
> 
> Why is it that simply asking for equal rights is always equated by some as "pushing" things in someone's face or stomping on religious rights?
> 
> But, you know, this whole argument is moot--within 20 years equal rights for LGBTs will be just as much another fact of our society as those for other minorities. All this angst will be wondered at and young people will be startled by the thought that LGBTs were ever discriminated against. Just as they do now regarding black Americans.


I sincerely hope that in 20 years there will be no vestige of discrimination against gays. Black Americans are still struggling against the various subtle and not-so-subtle displays of discrimination. Look at how hard the cons are fighting against removing the symbols of racism and discrimination and how vehemently they insist racism doesn't even exist. Observe the many white supremacists out there if one wants proof that racism is alive and well. Then, there's Charleston. We have a long ways to go when it comes to equality for Black Americans and other people of color.


----------



## brucew (May 7, 2012)

DGreen said:


> As an atheist, my guess is that the atheist baker doesn't give a crap about his customer's beliefs. He would bake the cake and not give it another thought.
> 
> I say that because as an atheist, I know that I and others who believe as I do are surrounded and immersed in a Christian/religious culture. We are very tolerant - we have to be. If atheists refused to interact or do business with those of faith we would be in a real pickle. So we laugh at the fools and go about our business.
> 
> Until they try to force their religion on us, which is a different argument completely.


As an atheist too, I love your answer.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

brucew said:


> As an atheist too, I love your answer.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## jmf6406 (Dec 13, 2012)

Dangrktty said:


> I was 5 years old and will never forget that evening.


I grew up in California so was shielded from seeing the type of cruel treatment your family received. I thought the stupid bigoted actions were part of history when in about 1995 I went to New Orleans for a business trip. New Orleans is in the South, but I thought it was a very cosmopolitan city. I ditched one of the seminars to do a little sightseeing and boarded a streetcar that went through the Garden District and around town. The handiest open seat was next to a young African American woman and I took it. Man! The looks I got from the White passengers! The young woman said to me, "Are you a tourist?" Of course she knew I was. She then offered to switch seats so I could sit by the window and she pointed out different sites as we rode along until she had to get off at the university for her class. She made that streetcar ride pleasant and memorable experience for me. I was pretty disgusted with the White citizens of New Orleans after that.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> 1 Corinthians 6:9 (NKJV)
> 
> _Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor* homosexuals*, nor *********,_


 :thumbup:


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Let's see, it was just four days ago when you were swearing, calling others insulting names and telling me I was ignorant.
> 
> I told you then you'll not prove me ignorant, but you're welcome to say whatever you wish.
> 
> ...


You're confusing me with someone else.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> 1 Corinthians 6:9 (NKJV)
> 
> _Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor* homosexuals*, nor *********,_


It may surprise you to know that there are many who laugh at bible references as they are neither valid nor relevant. You'll have to do better than that.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> How enlightening. Thanks for repeating my words.


You have no answer as there is no answer.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> There is one and only one true God. You will discover the truth, someday, when it is to late to change your mind


ROTFLMAO


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> Typical straw man argument from the right, immediately flinging out wild and inane "examples." A typical one goes along the lines of "so now if someone wants to marry their dog, that's OK?" This swatiska argument is about a pertinent as saying that homosexuals will be flooding Christian bakeries with orders for dildos on cakes.
> 
> And I get tired of hearing folks say that LGBTs are asking for "special" rights or protections. They are entitled to the SAME rights as everyone else--and that includes not being discriminated against.


 :thumbup:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> That is their right (from the First Amendment) to turn down something that might interfere with their religion. And Atheism is a Religion!


Atheism is a religion in exactly the same way as NOT playing golf is a hobby.

If you get your ideas about atheism from the same place as you get your ideas about god, that explains your complete and utter ignorance on the topic. You have been proven wrong repeatedly on that one.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> That is their right (from the First Amendment) to turn down something that might interfere with their religion. And Atheism is a Religion!


Oh, not that old canard again! I'm an atheist and can tell you that it is not a religion, no matter how often Christians claim it is.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> 1 Corinthians 6:9 (NKJV)
> 
> _Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor* homosexuals*, nor *********,_


So basically anyone who has sex is denied the kingdom of heaven? Balderdash I say!

You still didn't answer my question about hating the sin and loving the sinner.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> There is one and only one true God. You will discover the truth, someday, when it is to late to change your mind


You make me laugh.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Anyone who is not a "born again" Christian should be offended by this. Put another way, everyone outside that exclusive circle condones the works of satan. Of course, I don't believe in satan, so I'll add that the idea of "satan" can also be construed as the equivalent of pure evil.


Exactly! I was born and baptized once. That's enough for me! Reborn Christians are just another cult.


----------



## brucew (May 7, 2012)

What started as a topic of celebration for something that has been needed for a long time has quickly turned into a thread of hate by a couple of right wing know it alls who think they know what is right for everybody. You know who you are and I am not going to let it get me down or affect the joy I feel for the SCOTUS decision. 
I have learned in my life that there are some people who are so unhappy in their own lives they just have to rain on other people's parades.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> You make me laugh.


She reminds me of one of those "Street corner preachers".


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

brucew said:


> What started as a topic of celebration for something that has been needed for a long time has quickly turned into a thread of hate by a couple of right wing know it alls who think they know what is right for everybody. You know who you are and I am not going to let it get me down or affect the joy I feel for the SCOTUS decision.
> I have learned in my life that there are some people who are so unhappy in their own lives they just have to rain on other people's parades.


Bruce, you have hit the nail on the head!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Please tell me why Atheists want Chaplains in the Military. I thought Chaplains were there for religious reasons. Why do some Atheists have churches? Why do they want the same tax exempt status as any church?


Please answer my question that has been repeated twice for you.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> i.e. The baker can make cookies, bread, birthday cake , or any other kind of cake, except a Wedding Cake for a gay wedding. That is hating the Gay Wedding but loving the person enough to provide their physical needs as they request.


That's a bunch of BS. He could bake the cake for the wedding and still hate the sin. By baking the wedding cake he is loving the sinner.
By not baking the wedding cake he is showing hate and intolerance. If they wanted cookies they wouldn't order a wedding cake, now would they? He is not providing them anything.
This is all one of your twisted and made up scenarios.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Please tell me why Atheists want Chaplains in the Military. I thought Chaplains were there for religious reasons. Why do some Atheists have churches? Why do they want the same tax exempt status as any church?


Straw men.

You lump all atheists into one group as if we all believe the same things and have the same needs and desires. Your examples don't define atheism - not even close.

Just as valid a question would be if I asked YOU why you worship saints. After all, you're a Christian.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> It is not a marriage! Marriage is ordained by God as the union of one man and one woman. Anything else is a counterfeit. It is worth as much as a counterfeit dollar bill, and they DO make counterfeit dollar bills.
> 
> Marriage in the New Testament:
> 
> ...


In your post you called it a marriage and you said it made marriage worthless. Now how is your marriage worth less if I were to be married to another woman? Do you love your husband less? Does he love you less? Is it possible for you to answer a question without quoting scripture? Just an answer from your perception of your own marriage.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I do not worship saints. They are just a human who did good works on earth, and died. The only one I worship is Jesus Christ, who is part of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). He became flesh, lived on earth, was crucified, died and rose again. He is in Heaven seated on the right hand of the Father and is interceding for me. His shed blood is the only thing that has saved me from my sins. Only because I realized I am a sinner and asked Him to come into my heart and save me from my sins and to take me to Heaven when I die. To live there for eternity.


Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell us something new. 
You just can't get over the fact that Gays have received the same rights as everyone else. The sad thing is that it does not affect you in any way, unless you plan on running off with another woman or your husband decides to run off with another man. It does not take any value away from any marriage or union.
Take your bible and put it where the sun don't shine.
You won't convert anyone here.


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## krestiekrew (Aug 24, 2012)

Hours and hours later.....and I come back to see if happy peeps are posting again, nope, just S.S.D.H.

(same s--t, different hour), yeah, I know the original is day so 'those' people don't need to correct me.

Soooo hmmmm can any one spell 'hijack a thread'? Oh, I spelled it didnt i? So can anyone say it?

Later to the happy peeps.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The sin is the Gay Wedding, and the baker would be sinning by doing *anything* that may be a part of the gay wedding celebration.


No he wouldn't be sinning, he would be doing his job. You reborns sure can make up a lot of crap when it suits you.
You won't convince me.

Get over it. Gay marriage is legal and your spewing bible quotes won't change that. Go hand out pamphlets at a gay bar if this is what you think.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> 1 Corinthians 6:9 (NKJV)
> 
> _Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor* homosexuals*, nor *********,_


I probably could not afford the HOA fees so I am glad not to live in the Kingdom of God.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> I probably could not afford the HOA fees so I am glad not to live in the Kingdom of God.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The sin is the Gay Wedding, and the baker would be sinning by doing *anything* that may be a part of the gay wedding celebration.


My oh my, hell is going to be bursting at the seams if anyone involved to the slightest degree is automatically condemned: the folks who stitched the clothes (anyone from professional seamstresses and tailors to little children in 3rd world countries hunched over sewing machines). The musicians who recorded the songs and the DJs who play them. The cellar workers at the winery, where the champagne was fermented. The folks at the water plant who produced the ice cubes--the guy at the service station who fueled the limo and cleaned the windshield--the dude manning the street sweeper, who cleaned the asphalt in front of the reception hall.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> My oh my, hell is going to be bursting at the seams if anyone involved to the slightest degree is automatically condemned: the folks who stitched the clothes (anyone from professional seamstresses and tailors to little children in 3rd world countries hunched over sewing machines). The musicians who recorded the songs and the DJs who play them. The cellar workers at the winery, where the champagne was fermented. The folks at the water plant who produced the ice cubes--the guy at the service station who fueled the limo and cleaned the windshield--the dude manning the street sweeper, who cleaned the asphalt in front of the reception hall.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Old Nick had better stock up on the brimstone.....


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

brucew said:


> What started as a topic of celebration for something that has been needed for a long time has quickly turned into a thread of hate by a couple of right wing know it alls who think they know what is right for everybody. You know who you are and I am not going to let it get me down or affect the joy I feel for the SCOTUS decision.
> I have learned in my life that there are some people who are so unhappy in their own lives they just have to rain on other people's parades.


Yay! Yay!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Worth some thought! I'm sure 0bama will be so pleased when he hears this.
> 
> *Unintended Consequence of SCOTUS Gay Marriage Ruling Will Have Conservatives Cheering*
> 
> ...


Okay, another copy paste from a RWN rag. How is gay marriage going to hurt you personally?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

The rainbow flag looks much better than the confederate flag, nu?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I do not worship saints. They are just a human who did good works on earth, and died. The only one I worship is Jesus Christ, who is part of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). He became flesh, lived on earth, was crucified, died and rose again. He is in Heaven seated on the right hand of the Father and is interceding for me. His shed blood is the only thing that has saved me from my sins. Only because I realized I am a sinner and asked Him to come into my heart and save me from my sins and to take me to Heaven when I die. To live there for eternity.


Lovely profession of faith, Joey. I'm not impressed.

The topic was whether atheism is a religion. When presented with a valid argument, you change the subject rather than allow a glimmer of truth into your mind.

Any god that demands blood sacrifice is a ghoul. Sick.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> You didn't read it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I read, but they aren't YOUR words. How is gay marriage going to affect you personally?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> In your post you called it a marriage and you said it made marriage worthless. Now how is your marriage worth less if I were to be married to another woman? Do you love your husband less? Does he love you less? Is it possible for you to answer a question without quoting scripture? Just an answer from your perception of your own marriage.


She can't answer because in her heart, she knows same sex marriage had no effect on her whatever. There IS NO answer because the premise is absurd. Gay marriage only affects you if you're gay.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Worth some thought! I'm sure 0bama will be so pleased when he hears this.


_I'm_ pleased. Now American society will be temporarily free of a large number of dopes--those who read this garbage, try to take their concealed weapons into Maryland/DC/Hawaii, and are thrown behind bars on weapon charges.

Edit: just saw that Joey is apparently one of the dopes. Good luck, and be sure to keep your D & P friends updated--they may be able to send you a cake with a file in it.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> i.e. The baker can make cookies, bread, birthday cake , or any other kind of cake, except a Wedding Cake for a gay wedding. That is hating the Gay Wedding but loving the person enough to provide their physical needs as they request and pay for.


Haters gonna hate, not bake.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> The sin is the Gay Wedding, and the baker would be sinning by doing *anything* that may be a part of the gay wedding celebration.


Take this argument to the Supreme Court. I'm sure you'll get the decision reversed.
hahahahaha.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> Take this argument to the Supreme Court. I'm sure you'll get the decision reversed.
> hahahahaha.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> LOL The article was about concealed carry, not gay marriage! Now I can carry in Chicago, and New Jersey or any place else.


Good for you! Don't shoot your foot off.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

SQM said:


> I probably could not afford the HOA fees so I am glad not to live in the Kingdom of God.


Sooo funny!!


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> My oh my, hell is going to be bursting at the seams if anyone involved to the slightest degree is automatically condemned: the folks who stitched the clothes (anyone from professional seamstresses and tailors to little children in 3rd world countries hunched over sewing machines). The musicians who recorded the songs and the DJs who play them. The cellar workers at the winery, where the champagne was fermented. The folks at the water plant who produced the ice cubes--the guy at the service station who fueled the limo and cleaned the windshield--the dude manning the street sweeper, who cleaned the asphalt in front of the reception hall.


Oh!!! Eternal damnation!!!! 
:XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> LOL The article was about concealed carry, not gay marriage! Now I can carry in Chicago, and New Jersey or any place else.


I'm going to chime in here and join with Bratty Patty. The response to any of your posts will be

how does gay marriage affect you personally?

Surely you have an answer of some kind.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I'm going to chime in here and join with Bratty Patty. The response to any of your posts will be
> 
> how does gay marriage affect you personally?
> 
> Surely you have an answer of some kind.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> _I'm_ pleased. Now American society will be temporarily free of a large number of dopes--those who read this garbage, try to take their concealed weapons into Maryland/DC/Hawaii, and are thrown behind bars on weapon charges.
> 
> Edit: just saw that Joey is apparently one of the dopes. Good luck, and be sure to keep your D & P friends updated--they may be able to send you a cake with a file in it.


A cake baked by a gay baker!


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Worth some thought! I'm sure 0bama will be so pleased when he hears this.
> 
> *Unintended Consequence of SCOTUS Gay Marriage Ruling Will Have Conservatives Cheering*
> 
> ...


Okay, this garbage is now bull-oney. 
:thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

(Sorry I had to quote all that copy/paste. It'd be so much easier if I had a computer).


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> Okay, this garbage is now bull-oney.
> :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
> 
> (Sorry I had to quote all that copy/paste. It'd be so much easier if I had a computer).


On par with predictions that the US is doomed to suffer earthquakes, tornadoes and pestilence on account of the SCOTUS ruling. None of these people make sense - they're looking for their 15 minutes in the Tea Party/right wing spotlight.


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> The rainbow flag looks much better than the confederate flag, nu?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

brucew said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Bruce, do you remember when Minnesota declared gay marriage legal? 
The new bridge looked glorious in the rainbow colors.
I live a little north of you.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

jmf6406 said:


> I grew up in California so was shielded from seeing the type of cruel treatment your family received. I thought the stupid bigoted actions were part of history when in about 1995 I went to New Orleans for a business trip. New Orleans is in the South, but I thought it was a very cosmopolitan city. I ditched one of the seminars to do a little sightseeing and boarded a streetcar that went through the Garden District and around town. The handiest open seat was next to a young African American woman and I took it. Man! The looks I got from the White passengers! The young woman said to me, "Are you a tourist?" Of course she knew I was. She then offered to switch seats so I could sit by the window and she pointed out different sites as we rode along until she had to get off at the university for her class. She made that streetcar ride pleasant and memorable experience for me. I was pretty disgusted with the White citizens of New Orleans after that.


I love New Orleans. My DH and I would live there. The angry religious people have the state in some kind of iron claw right now, so we might as well stay in TX. One of the few cities I have ever felt at home. I am an octoroon and 'blend' well.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> There is one and only one true God. You will discover the truth, someday, when it is to late to change your mind


I wondered how long it would take for that little chestnut to rear its ugly head, and here it is. Page 35. Normally, I would call that remarkable restraint, but I have read your previous posts.

Nah.

If the words and threats in your bible are the only thing holding you back, then you are nothing more than a psychopath on a leash.

The Rapture was Friday and you didn't make the cut. You'll just have to suck it up buttercup, and pleasant motoring. Funny how your god hates the same people you hate.

As one of my Wiccan friends once said to another hateful religious person who made a similar remark, "It's your Hell, you burn in it."

In the meantime, you and your ilk can be the boil on the butt of the antichrist. You remind me of Carrie's mother, before all those mean kids poured pig's blood on her dress at the prom.

Oh, and BTW... that satan guy and the Hell he has waiting for all those sinners (NOT!)... was borrowed , wholesale from the Zoroastrians.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> LOL The article was about concealed carry, not gay marriage! Now I can carry in Chicago, and New Jersey or any place else.


Only in your sick little perverted mind. You are by your own admission nothing but a criminal. Hope the cops don't shoot you when they try to arrest you. Oh, that's right they only do that to black people. They still will have to arrest you though for carrying a concealed weapon. :XD:


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Bruce, do you remember when Minnesota declared gay marriage legal?
> The new bridge looked glorious in the rainbow colors.
> I live a little north of you.


I remember that day very well. Geno and I ran down to city hall on the next business day and applied for our marriage license.
How far north of me are you? I am in North Mpls.


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

Dangrktty said:


> I wondered how long it would take for that little chestnut to rear its ugly head, and here it is. Page 35. Normally, I would call that remarkable restraint, but I have read your previous posts.
> 
> Nah.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Dangrktty said:


> I wondered how long it would take for that little chestnut to rear its ugly head, and here it is. Page 35. Normally, I would call that remarkable restraint, but I have read your previous posts.
> 
> Nah.
> 
> ...


Gee I think you're swell. Where have you been hiding? You are just our type.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> The sin is the Gay Wedding, and the baker would be sinning by doing *anything* that may be a part of the gay wedding celebration.


I thought the sex was the sin. A wedding is just a celebration of love and happiness. I didn't know the baker had to have sex to bake a cake.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> You're confusing me with someone else.


I'm not the one confused, that would be you, ute4kp, bless your heart.

Here is our exchange from June 25 at 17:35:38, page 11, on the _Brian Williams and Falling Ratings_ thread exactly as I reiterated:

http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-344286-11.html#7530464


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

brucew said:


> I remember that day very well. Geno and I ran down to city hall on the next business day and applied for our marriage license.
> How far north of me are you? I am in North Mpls.


Bruce congrats to you and Geno. I wish you a long happy life of wedded bliss. I worked on VOTE NO in MN and was so happy how everything progressed so quickly in our state and now the whole country. Yippie! :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Geez. KGB should be hired as the KP Archivist.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

SQM said:


> Geez. KGB should be hired as the KP Archivist.


I think she already does it for free. No need to pay her SQ. :XD:


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Dangrktty said:


> I wondered how long it would take for that little chestnut to rear its ugly head, and here it is. Page 35. Normally, I would call that remarkable restraint, but I have read your previous posts.
> 
> Nah.
> 
> ...


Bravo, Dangrktty! [massive applause]


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Dangrktty said:


> I wondered how long it would take for that little chestnut to rear its ugly head, and here it is. Page 35. Normally, I would call that remarkable restraint, but I have read your previous posts.
> 
> Nah.
> 
> ...


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> You have no answer as there is no answer.


What the heck are you talking about? Where or what is your question?

You are one confused poster.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I sincerely hope that in 20 years there will be no vestige of discrimination against gays. Black Americans are still struggling against the various subtle and not-so-subtle displays of discrimination. Look at how hard the cons are fighting against removing the symbols of racism and discrimination and how vehemently they insist racism doesn't even exist. Observe the many white supremacists out there if one wants proof that racism is alive and well. Then, there's Charleston. We have a long ways to go when it comes to equality for Black Americans and other people of color.


I hope it goes as well down here as in Canada. There has been very little if any problems about Same Sex marriage.

In fact I just found out that there are some Americans living up here so that they can live normal lives. My nephew is gay and was Like Bruce - they married 3 days after it was made legal.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> I probably could not afford the HOA fees so I am glad not to live in the Kingdom of God.


Have you seen the mob that reckon they are going there? Would you honestly choose to spend any length of time with them? And sitting around on your derriere for any extended length of time and just singing 'glory, glory, glory and hallelujah' would be so boring. Honestly, would you really want to go there.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> My oh my, hell is going to be bursting at the seams if anyone involved to the slightest degree is automatically condemned: the folks who stitched the clothes (anyone from professional seamstresses and tailors to little children in 3rd world countries hunched over sewing machines). The musicians who recorded the songs and the DJs who play them. The cellar workers at the winery, where the champagne was fermented. The folks at the water plant who produced the ice cubes--the guy at the service station who fueled the limo and cleaned the windshield--the dude manning the street sweeper, who cleaned the asphalt in front of the reception hall.


But look at the plus side. Just look at all the interesting people we will meet in hell. So many interesting people all with different interests and so many different stories to tell.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> But look at the plus side. Just look at all the interesting people we will meet in hell. So many interesting people all with different interests and so many different stories to tell.


Heaven for climate, hell for company.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> Geez. KGB should be hired as the KP Archivist.


 She is already acting in that capacity, but I am not in favour of paying her for her unsolicited services. No, sorry, wait a minute, I think you just did. Remember that chaching, or was it kaching, or something similar. Everytime someone mentions her name she is paid by someone. She must be a very wealthy woman now, everyone is mentioning her name.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Have you seen the mob that reckon they are going there? Would you honestly choose to spend any length of time with them? And sitting around on your derriere for any extended length of time and just singing 'glory, glory, glory and hallelujah' would be so boring. Honestly, would you really want to go there.


Oh, I'm sure the D & P crowd would find ways to keep themselves occupied--probably hurling down spitballs on their enemies here on Earth in hopes of winning an extra pair of wings.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> She is already acting in that capacity, but I am not in favour of paying her for her unsolicited services. No, sorry, wait a minute, I think you just did. Remember that chaching, or was it kaching, or something similar. Everytime someone mentions her name she is paid by someone. She must be a very wealthy woman now, everyone is mentioning her name.


Hmm...KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG KPG (There. Maybe she'll have enough $$ to retire now, and we'll gain some peace and quiet)


----------



## Jules934 (May 7, 2013)

Ruddersrun said:


> Please let's keep politics off of this site.
> Can we agree to just stitch?





Mopgenorth said:


> The topic is called "chit chat (nonknitting). I look forward to reading and understanding what is going on outside of my little knitting world. Interacting with others is what makes the world go round.
> 
> If you choose to limit your viewing pleasure to knitting subjects only, it's easy to opt out from this category - or you can just simply ignore it and not engage.


Excellently put! That's what it's all about, Mopgenorth. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> This is so true!


How has gay marriage affected you PERSONALLY?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Heaven for climate, hell for company.


What a stupid meme you posted. You probably thought it a degrading and relative 'sound bite' to Christians for the topic being discussed.

The Roman verses are accurately copied from The Bible. However, Christians are subject to and told to obey the law and governing authorities and not break the law or intentionally ignore those laws which govern. That isn't to say all Christians MUST ACCEPT (as stated in the meme) any ill conceived ideals, principles or beliefs or illegal laws which are in direct opposition to God's word and teachings.

Bible believing Christians who _are_ subject to the authorities and laws are to not discriminate against anyone including those in the LBGT population because that is what the law and The Bible requires - that is "being subject to" and "obeying" the laws which govern.

God gave everyone a brain and expects them to use it to the best of one's ability and not fall or succumb to false prophets.

Study The Bible and what it means if you want to quote from it to your advantage. What you posted simply highlighted your ignorance and lack of understanding of those Biblical verses.

Oh, btw, I hope you noticed you, too, are subject to those authorities God, himself, put in place.

The word "everyone" includes you, and I'm happy you acknowledged that fact; God's authorities are His, and you are under His control because you, too, recognize His words are valid for ALL to live by. :-D


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> This is so true!


Amen! :thumbup:


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> What a stupid meme you posted. You probably thought it a degrading and relative 'sound bite' to Christians for the topic being discussed.
> 
> The Roman verses are accurately copied from The Bible. However, Christians are subject to and told to obey the law and governing authorities and not break the law or intentionally ignore those laws which govern. That isn't to say all Christians MUST ACCEPT (as stated in the meme) any ill conceived ideals, principles or beliefs or illegal laws which are in direct opposition to God's word and teachings.
> 
> ...


I have studied the bible. I see you are one who thumps it rather than lives by it. What a shame. I hope you realize that you are responsible for making others see just what a sham your religion is.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> What a stupid meme you posted. You probably thought it a degrading and relative 'sound bite' to Christians for the topic being discussed.
> 
> The Roman verses are accurately copied from The Bible. However, Christians are subject to and told to obey the law and governing authorities and not break the law or intentionally ignore those laws which govern. That isn't to say all Christians MUST ACCEPT (as stated in the meme) any ill conceived ideals, principles or beliefs or illegal laws which are in direct opposition to God's word and teachings.
> 
> ...


Have a nice day and do not forget to drink 8 glasses of water every day.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> This is so true!


Have a nice day and do not forget the old message of "slip, slop, slap" in order to protect yourself from skin cancer.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> I have studied the bible. I see you are one who thumps it rather than lives by it. What a shame. I hope you realize that you are responsible for making others see just what a sham your religion is.


You may have studied it, but you didn't learn or comprehend much as evidenced by your posts on KP.

You are embarrassing yourself in your attempt to belittle Christians. You do not know me nor my Christian walk.

I'm happy to share God's love and Word with you and anyone. I'll also correct any mistake or falsehood about my faith you produce as I choose. I have no religion, that's your gig.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> I will follow God's Law! Then man's law, if and only if, it does not disagree with God's Law.


 :thumbup:


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You may have studied it, but you didn't learn or comprehend much as evidenced by your posts on KP.
> 
> You are embarrassing yourself in your attempt to belittle Christians. You do not know me nor my Christian walk.
> 
> I'm happy to share God's love and Word with you and anyone. I'll also correct any mistake or falsehood about my faith you produce as I choose. I have no religion, that's your gig.


Does your Christian walk include make defamatory statements regarding Jews and the slave trade?


----------



## Hildy60 (Jan 27, 2011)

joeysomma wrote:
Actually, this same sex marriage has nothing to do with LOVE or marriage. It is to tear down traditional marriage and to make marriage worthless. Also to control anyone who speaks or acts against them. Then to silence Christians. Born again Christians are the only enemy of Satan. These Homo-activists are members of Satan's Army. Presently they are winning. But God is in control, and he will be the final winner!


Yep. The entire ordeal is to change the very definition of marriage as defined by God. I expect we'll now see people who want to marry more than one person, of any sex, to multiple people (regardless of male/female/undecided) and next to marry an animal or doorstop or whatever the heck comes into their heads. The courts are now making the decisions for the American people, so anything is game. No more will Congress create the laws or uphold the laws on which our Country was founded. Now it will be up to whomever is elected, appointed or takes over by force

My husband said the same thing
Hildy


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Gay marriage is still counterfeit. It is NOT a marriage. Marriage was ordained by God between one man and one woman. Government can call it a civil union, but it is NOT MARRIAGE. It is evil, no good can ever come from it. You may think it is good, but only for the moment.
> 
> If you are one of 100 people standing on a 500 foot cliff. And 99 jump off, are you going with the majority and also jump? I will NEVER go with the majority, if they are wrong! The Bible says they are wrong. I believe what the Bible says.


Please explain how gay marriage has affected you personally.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Hildy60 said:


> joeysomma wrote:
> Actually, this same sex marriage has nothing to do with LOVE or marriage. It is to tear down traditional marriage and to make marriage worthless. Also to control anyone who speaks or acts against them. Then to silence Christians. Born again Christians are the only enemy of Satan. These Homo-activists are members of Satan's Army. Presently they are winning. But God is in control, and he will be the final winner!
> 
> Yep. The entire ordeal is to change the very definition of marriage as defined by God. I expect we'll now see people who want to marry more than one person, of any sex, to multiple people (regardless of male/female/undecided) and next to marry an animal or doorstop or whatever the heck comes into their heads. The courts are now making the decisions for the American people, so anything is game. No more will Congress create the laws or uphold the laws on which our Country was founded. Now it will be up to whomever is elected, appointed or takes over by force
> ...


So, Hildy, do you have an opinion of your own, or are you one of those fundamentalist wives who parrots only what your husband says in the biblical tradition of wifely submission?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

strikkestedegaver said:


> It is true you could be a completely different person IRL and actually a good and decent Christian. But you definitely don't walk the walk here.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

brucew said:


> I remember that day very well. Geno and I ran down to city hall on the next business day and applied for our marriage license.
> How far north of me are you? I am in North Mpls.


I am about an hour north of you Bruce. I live in "Cloud Town"


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Gay marriage is still counterfeit. It is NOT a marriage. Marriage was ordained by God between one man and one woman. Government can call it a civil union, but it is NOT MARRIAGE. It is evil, no good can ever come from it. You may think it is good, but only for the moment.
> 
> If you are one of 100 people standing on a 500 foot cliff. And 99 jump off, are you going with the majority and also jump? I will NEVER go with the majority, if they are wrong! The Bible says they are wrong. I believe what the Bible says.


"Hodor. Hodor. Hodor".

This is what you sound like when you slam your Tootsie Pop on the sidewalk and stomp you feet while ranting about that bible drivel. Personally I hope you scream yourself into a camel toe. It will be the most exciting thing you have experienced in a long time, and you probably need it for all that pent up anger.

Marriage licenses don't come from god. You have to go to the registrar's office for that.

Biblical marriage is polygamy and rape, basically whatever a man chooses. Read it again. God's law.

Would you jump off that cliff if your god told you to jump? Would you kill your child if god told you to, like Abraham?

So how many wives does your husband have ? Concubines ? Kidnapped teen girls he raped and brought home ? If your husband dies, you could be forced to marry his brother. Are you up for that? God's law.

Shellfish and poly/cotton blends are an abomination. Do you eat shrimp cocktail and BLT sandwiches while wearing that Ship 'n Shore perma press blouse? God's law.

Do you purchase your slaves from Canada, Mexico, or the next state in any direction? God's law.

I find it somewhat amusing, you and your cohorts pick and choose which things to be upset about in your bible.

But their sins are big, and your sins are... whatever you decide to believe, or is it whatever you are told to believe. Isn't your god the same, yesterday, today, and forever? Or do you just get to "interpret" the words to suit yourself ?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Hildy60 said:


> joeysomma wrote:
> Actually, this same sex marriage has nothing to do with LOVE or marriage. It is to tear down traditional marriage and to make marriage worthless. Also to control anyone who speaks or acts against them. Then to silence Christians. Born again Christians are the only enemy of Satan. These Homo-activists are members of Satan's Army. Presently they are winning. But God is in control, and he will be the final winner!
> 
> Yep. The entire ordeal is to change the very definition of marriage as defined by God. I expect we'll now see people who want to marry more than one person, of any sex, to multiple people (regardless of male/female/undecided) and next to marry an animal or doorstop or whatever the heck comes into their heads. The courts are now making the decisions for the American people, so anything is game. No more will Congress create the laws or uphold the laws on which our Country was founded. Now it will be up to whomever is elected, appointed or takes over by force
> ...


Hi Hildy, Joeysomma wrote the first paragraph you reposted and I wrote the 2nd. Sadly, our country no longer is governed by The USA Constitution, but our Congress and President have allowed appointed (not elected by the people) Supreme Court justices to legislate and write/changes laws. Writing laws and legislating is not the job of any court or judge. America has changed, not by the voice of the people, but by those who now rule by their emotions and their personal and political persuasions.

America is well on its path to destruction.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Dangrktty said:


> "Hodor. Hodor. Hodor".
> 
> This is what you sound like when you slam your Tootsie Pop on the sidewalk and stomp you feet while ranting about that bible drivel. Personally I hope you scream yourself into a camel toe. It will be the most exciting thing you have experienced in a long time, and it you probably need it for all that pent up anger.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

Hildy60 said:


> My husband said the same thing
> Hildy


My husband is still laughing about the crazy fundie funnies on this thread. He read this entire diatribe over my shoulder and finds it hugely entertaining.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

_Sadly, our country no longer is governed by The USA Constitution, but our Congress and President have allowed appointed (not elected by the people) Supreme Court justices to legislate and write/changes laws._

The President and Congress have not allowed anything. They have no power over the Supreme Court except to propose justices and to confirm their appointments. If you will recall your civics classes, we have a system of checks and balances in the US, the Administrative, Legislative and Judicial. These branches are equal with none having power over either of the others, so the claim that the president and congress have "allowed" the supreme court to do anything is simply uninformed and ignorant.

The judicial branch was set up in the constitution to decide matters of constitutional law, which is what they did regarding same-sex marriage. They have not in this case, or in any case in history, written a law.

The Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS[1]) is the highest federal court of the United States. Established pursuant to Article III of the United States Constitution in 1789, it has ultimate (and largely discretionary) appellate jurisdiction over all federal courts and over state court cases involving issues of federal law, plus original jurisdiction over a small range of cases. In the legal system of the United States, the Supreme Court is the final interpreter of federal constitutional law.

Curiously, the fundamentalists were cheering the Supreme Court's wisdom in the case of Hobby Lobby, which was decided in their favor. Now they say the court is destroying the country. Interesting, indeed.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

No matter how much they rant and rave and hurl bible quotes ,
It's a *FACT* that gay marriage is legal in the USA. No argument on a knitting site is going to change that fact.

A couple of RWN's have been asked how gay marriage will affect them personally, and how gay marriage is taking away their religious freedom on a personal level. 
Neither one can produce an answer. 
I am willing to bet that they know that it does not affect them personally and that they are just blowing hot air because SCOTUS ruled against their beliefs.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Please explain how gay marriage has affected you personally.


Crickets.

You know you won't get an answer, but you have tried, several times. We all know the answer, but she won't say, because then she will have to admit the truth.

Absolutely squat.

That answer is not in her talking points, not in her Cliff's Notes, not in her bible. She would have to think for herself, and critical thinking is not part of the dogma, indoctrination, party line.

No JBTs kicked in her door and forced her to do anything, no one took away her birthday, no one ate baby Jesus, no one forced her to stop wearing the muu muu and pink sponge rollers, no one ripped out the green shag carpet. She has the same rights today she had last Thursday.

The same bible interpretations were used to justify segregation, separate restrooms, and water fountains.

You didn't get a straight answer, and you won't. She probably won't answer this either.

Don't you imagine those blinders she wears chafe a bit?
:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Dangrktty said:


> "Hodor. Hodor. Hodor".
> 
> This is what you sound like when you slam your Tootsie Pop on the sidewalk and stomp you feet while ranting about that bible drivel. Personally I hope you scream yourself into a camel toe. It will be the most exciting thing you have experienced in a long time, and you probably need it for all that pent up anger.
> 
> ...


Dang, rktty! You are so misguided in your Biblical interpretations you are hilarious in some crazy way. :-D

You must realize it takes no thought or much in the way of brains to quote scriptures like you are trying to do to make a point. Any idiot can quote and take a verse or chapter literally or out of context as you do.

What takes intelligence, intellectual and meaningful thought and humility is the desire to read and learn to understand the teachings and meanings of the words of God through the lens of Jesus' death and resurrection. To do otherwise is a fool's folly.

A hint: if you want to critique Christians you should at least read and attempt to understand both the Old and New Testaments.

Your words indicate you have no knowledge or understanding of the New Testament and that the laws from the time of Abraham and Moses are not those to be followed by Christians after the New Covenant upon the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Also, some of the 'laws' you think you are accurately paraphrasing were directed to or intended only for the Jews at the time, not the Gentiles.

You need to learn the rest of the story and should educate yourself before you try to debate an educated Christian 'cause you got nothin'.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Dangrktty said:


> My husband is still laughing about the crazy fundie funnies on this thread. He read this entire diatribe over my shoulder and finds it hugely entertaining.


I'm ROFLMBO at your stupid statements especially because you think you understand what your talking about. :XD: You don't.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm ROFLMBO at your stupid statements especially because you think you understand what your talking about. :XD:


Just like you think you understand the Supreme Court in regards to the Constitution? Read Article 2 Section 2.

Scotus does not write law. If laws are in dispute, they make the final decision based on the constitution.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Hildy60 said:


> joeysomma wrote:
> Actually, this same sex marriage has nothing to do with LOVE or marriage. It is to tear down traditional marriage and to make marriage worthless. Also to control anyone who speaks or acts against them. Then to silence Christians. Born again Christians are the only enemy of Satan. These Homo-activists are members of Satan's Army. Presently they are winning. But God is in control, and he will be the final winner!
> 
> Yep. The entire ordeal is to change the very definition of marriage as defined by God. I expect we'll now see people who want to marry more than one person, of any sex, to multiple people (regardless of male/female/undecided) and next to marry an animal or doorstop or whatever the heck comes into their heads. The courts are now making the decisions for the American people, so anything is game. No more will Congress create the laws or uphold the laws on which our Country was founded. Now it will be up to whomever is elected, appointed or takes over by force
> ...


 :thumbup: Sin is still sin no matter what man makes into law. God word will stand thru eternity. Amen


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Hi Hildy, Joeysomma wrote the first paragraph you reposted and I wrote the 2nd. Sadly, our country no longer is governed by The USA Constitution, but our Congress and President have allowed appointed (not elected by the people) Supreme Court justices to legislate and write/changes laws. Writing laws and legislating is not the job of any court or judge. America has changed, not by the voice of the people, but by those who now rule by theirs emotions and their personal and political persuasions.
> 
> America is well on its path to destruction.


Yes


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Dangrktty said:


> Crickets.
> 
> You know you won't get an answer, but you have tried, several times. We all know the answer, but she won't say, because then she will have to admit the truth.
> 
> ...


I know I won't get a straight answer, but sometimes asking uncomfortable questions acts like bug repellent. When backed into a corner, some posters are gone like a fart in the wind.

No, I don't think the blinders chafe at all.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

As for religious rights in the constitution:


The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed.
In fact the only mention of God in the constitution is in the signatory sections where the date is written "in the Year of our Lord."


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## Shannon123 (Mar 9, 2012)

Hildy60 said:


> joeysomma wrote:
> Actually, this same sex marriage has nothing to do with LOVE or marriage. It is to tear down traditional marriage and to make marriage worthless. Also to control anyone who speaks or acts against them. Then to silence Christians. Born again Christians are the only enemy of Satan. These Homo-activists are members of Satan's Army. Presently they are winning. But God is in control, and he will be the final winner!
> 
> Yep. The entire ordeal is to change the very definition of marriage as defined by God. I expect we'll now see people who want to marry more than one person, of any sex, to multiple people (regardless of male/female/undecided) and next to marry an animal or doorstop or whatever the heck comes into their heads. The courts are now making the decisions for the American people, so anything is game. No more will Congress create the laws or uphold the laws on which our Country was founded. Now it will be up to whomever is elected, appointed or takes over by force
> ...


"God is in control". How's that working out? Today's headline in my small town newspaper: Murdered infant's parents arrested.

What a kind of god will condemn those who choose to love each other yet let an innocent baby be born then tortured for 4 weeks of their life? Your beliefs make me sick!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

It is so sad to see these angry "reborn" Christians carrying on about the right to love and marry.
You can't put all Christians into the same barrel. 
There are the fundies who believe that the bible is all of God's words and the world should live by them. Let's not forget how many times it has been translated by man. 
One on here is always condemning people to hell. They are more concerned about how others act and think than they do themselves. They can talk the talk, but don't walk the walk.
Then there are the Christians who believe that God is a loving deity. They are tolerant of others and like to "live and let live". "love thy neighbor as you love yourself"
These Christians do not blather fire and brimstone, but actually try to walk in the footsteps of JC. They don't trod on the poor and sick. They help them instead. They don't begrudge any other religion their freedom to exist.
If there is a war on Christians who use religion to damn and gain political ground, it is coming from the true Christians who are embarrassed by them. The fundies do give all of Christianity a bad name.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Dang, rktty! You are so misguided in your Biblical interpretations you are hilarious in some crazy way. :-D


 I was a Christian for several years, and read the entire bible, word for word, beginning to end. I studied it, researched the history, etymology, and cultures of the purported authors, purported geographical areas (some either never existed, or have never been found).

I speak 5 languages, including Greek, Latin, Hebrew and have several copies of the so-called holy book, including the bad Greek translation, aka the Septuagint, copied almost word for word by the authors of the King James Version, 1611, except for the parts that were left out at the command of His Majesty and the parts that were added and changed over the years by numerous anonymous authors of questionable capabilities or motives.

There has never been any "The Bible", anywhere. Collections of fragments of writings by all sorts of people, and no original autographs by anyone who may or may not heve existed..

Which of the 2 sets of the purported 10 commandments do you follow ? Hint: there are over 600 commandments total, and the combined 2 sets of 10=17.

Of course, you and the other citizens of the Land of the Tiny-Brained Folk have the inside scoop, and only you know exactly how to interpret the words of the son of god... that would be Yahweh, btw. 
Yahweh's father was EL. EL's wife was Asherah, Yahweh's mother.
That would make Jesus EL's grandson, if he ever existed, which has never been proven. All of these gods are Caananite.
And the Jews were pantheistic (worshipped many gods) until well after the Babylonian Exile, during which time parts of the Pentateuch ( pronounced 'pen-ta-toik)were cobbled together, using many sources from their pagan neighbors.

If this is the god you worship, then you are a pagan. Bet they don't tell you that in your church. Bet they don't tell you a lot of things, as you sit around wait for the next email, telling you which people to hate next.

Kyrie Eleison.

In a few years, you and all the rest of the Schrumpfen old fossils and your superstitious hate mongering will be completely irrelevant.

Gen X, Gen Y, and the Millenials, just now coming of age, are watching your example of bigotry, hate and ignorance. Times are changing and you have been literally, and figuratively left behind like Mrs Carter in "Return to Peyton Place."


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## Hildy60 (Jan 27, 2011)

While my husband and I are both Catholics even he would admit I am the person of faith. My husband's objections are based more on the activist judges who are attempting to re-write the US Constitution which he has taken an oath to defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic. I must admit I am in a way thankful for this painful court decision as it seems to have awaken my husband's faith in our lord. He would say the school's are apparently forgetting to teach that this great country was created by Christians many of whom came to this country to get away from religious persecution which now seems to be returning with a vengeance. 

My objections are clearly on religious grounds, from my bible readings and bible study which many times are with other protestant faiths. My husband and I are both college educated, we are in a marriage that is a partnership of equals soon to be 38 years. We have had many difficult issues in life to deal with but one of the hardest is when our youngest son who is now in his 30's told me sometime ago he is homosexual. We still speak but it has been very difficult because like many of the comments on this forum my son who is well aware of my faith in God has made many disparaging remarks about my Christian values which he has been around all his life. My son knows he is still welcome in our home but when he is in our home he has to respect our values and not try to force his on us. He also knows as we have told him we have nothing but the best wishes for him, we still love him and pray for him.

The only other comment I wish to make as I end this reply is this topic really isn't the proper forum for such discussions as too often it results in insults and derogatory remarks intended to hurt people's feelings and nothing good comes from that. I just felt I had to respond one last time to this topic so perhaps you may better understand my comments and conclusions are something that I have thought a great deal about over the years. 
Hildy God Bless You


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> It is so sad to see these angry "reborn" Christians carrying on about the right to love and marry.
> You can't put all Christians into the same barrel.
> There are the fundies who believe that the bible is all of God's words and the world should live by them. Let's not forget how many times it has been translated by man.
> One on here is always condemning people to hell. They are more concerned about how others act and think than they do themselves. They can talk the talk, but don't walk the walk.
> ...


Absolutely. And they go about their business, helping other people, trying to do the right thing without harassing anyone. Truly enlightened individuals who live their lives as an example, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc., and never have to say a word. They are known by their deeds.

The Salt of the Earth, n'estce pas?

"Faith without works is dead".~~~James, the brother of Jesus.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Hi Hildy, Joeysomma wrote the first paragraph you reposted and I wrote the 2nd. Sadly, our country no longer is governed by The USA Constitution, but our Congress and President have allowed appointed (not elected by the people) Supreme Court justices to legislate and write/changes laws. Writing laws and legislating is not the job of any court or judge. America has changed, not by the voice of the people, but by those who now rule by their emotions and their personal and political persuasions.
> 
> America is well on its path to destruction.


As long as you remember to avoid passive smoking and asbestos fibres. Have a pleasant day.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> No matter how much they rant and rave and hurl bible quotes ,
> It's a *FACT* that gay marriage is legal in the USA. No argument on a knitting site is going to change that fact.
> 
> A couple of RWN's have been asked how gay marriage will affect them personally, and how gay marriage is taking away their religious freedom on a personal level.
> ...


Against their beliefs? I would say against their indoctrination and brainwashing. So sad really.


----------



## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

Hildy60 said:


> While my husband and I are both Catholics even he would admit I am the person of faith.
> Hildy God Bless You


I get it. 
The situation with your son must have been very painful for you. Have you been Catholic prior to Vatican II or afterwards?

Parochial School?

Protestant bible study is rather 'ex cathedra'. There is neither an Imprimatur nor a Nihil Obstat in the KJV. You realize those are Venials, do you not ? Prior to Vatican II they would have been Mortals.


----------



## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I know I won't get a straight answer, but sometimes asking uncomfortable questions acts like bug repellent. When backed into a corner, some posters are gone like a fart in the wind.
> 
> No, I don't think the blinders chafe at all.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Hildy60 said:


> While my husband and I are both Catholics even he would admit I am the person of faith. which he has taken an oath to defend against all enemies, foreign My husband's objections are based more on the activist judges who are attempting to re-write the US Constitution and domestic. I must admit I am in a way thankful for this painful court decision as it seems to have awaken my husband's faith in our lord. He would say the school's are apparently forgetting to teach that this great country was created by Christians many of whom came to this country to get away from religious persecution which now seems to be returning with a vengeance.
> 
> My objections are clearly on religious grounds, from my bible readings and bible study which many times are with other protestant faiths. My husband and I are both college educated, we are in a marriage that is a partnership of equals soon to be 38 years. We have had many difficult issues in life to deal with but one of the hardest is when our youngest son who is now in his 30's told me sometime ago he is homosexual. We still speak but it has been very difficult because like many of the comments on this forum my son who is well aware of my faith in God has made many disparaging remarks about my Christian values which he has been around all his life. My son knows he is still welcome in our home but when he is in our home he has to respect our values and not try to force his on us. He also knows as we have told him we have nothing but the best wishes for him, we still love him and pray for him.
> 
> ...


No one is rewriting the constitution. It is up to the Supreme Court to interpret the constitution and to determine whether laws conform with it or not. I always find such statements interesting because there is never any substance or valid argument with specific details about this supposed "re-write." Would you say the Supreme Court was rewriting laws in the Hobby Lobby decision? You can't pick and choose which ones are "activism" and which are not. Either they all are or none are.

As for your statement that he would say "schools have forgotten" to teach about the supposed Christian founding fathers, give him a history lesson, please. The puritans came to escape religious "persecution" and promptly instituted their own brand of religious horror. Many of the founding fathers were not Christian at all, but deists. Look it up. The founding fathers DELIBERATELY left god out of the Constitution because they had seen first hand the abuses brought about by mixing religion and government and wanted to avoid that.

This is NOT and never was a "Christian" nation. Any school who teaches that it is would be in violation of the law.

There is no persecution of Christians as you suggest. It is a fabricated construct of those who are accustomed to enjoying the privilege of being in the majority and who are not used to being challenged when they violate others' religious freedoms. Here's a challenge for you. Please detail the religious freedoms you have lost. Be precise, please. Have you been prevented from going to the church of your choice? Have you been jailed for being Catholic? Have you been forbidden to wear a cross? Have you seen your religious schools shut down or restricted from teaching? Are you allowed to own a bible?

This topic is absolutely appropriate in this portion of the site. If you can't hear the truth without having hurt feelings, then perhaps you should not visit here.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> As for religious rights in the constitution:
> 
> The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed.
> In fact the only mention of God in the constitution is in the signatory sections where the date is written "in the Year of our Lord."


So true. And, the mention of "our Lord" in this contexts is only a common way of expressing a date. It is NOT a profession of faith as some would insist.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> No idea. I'm rather surprised though that some of her pals over on D & P--the ones who are Catholic or Jewish, at least--don't find this highly offensive.


Speaking for one Jewish, D&P pal, Joey is entitled to hold whatever beliefs she chooses. Her opinions and beliefs are hers. Joey doesn't agree with all of my opinions and I don't with all of hers, but we respect each others right to hold them. I don't agree with all of the opinions/beliefs that my real world friends and family hold, and again, we all respect each others right to hold them. Marriage isn't the only relationship out there. Friendships have the same amount of necessary juggling/compromising as do marriages, families and work relationships. I don't have to agree with Joey on everything to consider a friend. Perhaps you should consider that.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> :thumbup: Sin is still sin no matter what man makes into law. God word will stand thru eternity. Amen


Then let God deal with it--it's not your business.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Speaking for one Jewish, D&P pal, Joey is entitled to hold whatever beliefs she chooses. Her opinions and beliefs are hers. Joey doesn't agree with all of my opinions and I don't with all of hers, but we respect each others right to hold them. I don't agree with all of the opinions/beliefs that my real world friends and family hold, and again, we all respect each others right to hold them. Marriage isn't the only relationship out there. Friendships have the same amount of necessary juggling/compromising as do marriages, families and work relationships. I don't have to agree with Joey on everything to consider a friend. Perhaps you should consider that.


I suppose I have to admire your open mindedness, Solowey, but frankly I'd have a problem with a friend who believed I was in cahoots with Satan, or that 3/4 of the world was damned to hell for being born in the wrong time and the wrong place. You're correct in that there's a certain amount juggling and compromise in relationships, but some things are difficult to overlook.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Dangrktty said:


> Crickets.
> 
> You know you won't get an answer, but you have tried, several times. We all know the answer, but she won't say, because then she will have to admit the truth.
> 
> ...


To be honest, I don't hear too much critical thinking from the liberals either. Most of what is regurgitated is from the liberal playbook, cliff notes, propaganda booklets and blogs. Typical party line talking points, nothing more.

How much do your blinders chafe? Got ointment?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> To be honest, I don't hear too much critical thinking from the liberals either. Most of what is regurgitated is from the liberal playbook, cliff notes, propaganda booklets and blogs. Typical party line talking points, nothing more.
> 
> How much do your blinders chafe? Got ointment?


Specifically which talking points are you referring to?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I suppose I have to admire your open mindedness, Solowey, but frankly I'd have a problem with a friend who believed I was in cahoots with Satan, or that 3/4 of the world was damned to hell for being born in the wrong time and the wrong place. You're correct in that there's a certain amount juggling and compromise in relationships, but some things are difficult to overlook.


Well said, Susan.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Hildy60 said:


> joeysomma wrote:
> Actually, this same sex marriage has nothing to do with LOVE or marriage. It is to tear down traditional marriage and to make marriage worthless. Also to control anyone who speaks or acts against them. Then to silence Christians. Born again Christians are the only enemy of Satan. These Homo-activists are members of Satan's Army. Presently they are winning. But God is in control, and he will be the final winner!
> 
> Yep. The entire ordeal is to change the very definition of marriage as defined by God. I expect we'll now see people who want to marry more than one person, of any sex, to multiple people (regardless of male/female/undecided) and next to marry an animal or doorstop or whatever the heck comes into their heads. The courts are now making the decisions for the American people, so anything is game. No more will Congress create the laws or uphold the laws on which our Country was founded. Now it will be up to whomever is elected, appointed or takes over by force
> ...


 Both of you are so full of hate that I can't believe you claim to be true Christians -- how do you know that same sex marriage is nothing to do with Love? Are you walking in their shoes.

Who are you to judge their feelings? 
They are citizens and have the same rights of other Americans- What happened to 'do unto others as ye would have them do unto you', or' love thy neighbour'. It seems to have flownout the window with both of you. Do you think Jesus would expect you to treat other Americans the way you do and say the things you do?

Shame!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Specifically which talking points are you referring to?


She just can't help herself, D! The only thing being regurgitated around here is the RWN's repetition of hell and damnation.
The topic of the thread is a celebration of Gay marriage, not a traveling salvation show which joeysomma, KPG and CB want to turn it into.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> I suppose I have to admire your open mindedness, Solowey, but frankly I'd have a problem with a friend who believed I was in cahoots with Satan, or that 3/4 of the world was damned to hell for being born in the wrong time and the wrong place. You're correct in that there's a certain amount juggling and compromise in relationships, but some things are difficult to overlook.


You suppose you have to? Please don't do me any favors. The one thing that Joey does and the rest of your group doesn't do is Joey DOES NOT put you down for your beliefs the way you do her. Joey does not personally attack you the way you do her and find it amusing to do so. I find this behavior of your group offensive, not Joey's belief in her religion.


----------



## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

DGreen said:


> No one is rewriting the constitution. It is up to the Supreme Court to interpret the constitution and to determine whether laws conform with it or not. I always find such statements interesting because there is never any substance or valid argument with specific details about this supposed "re-write." Would you say the Supreme Court was rewriting laws in the Hobby Lobby decision? You can't pick and choose which ones are "activism" and which are not. Either they all are or none are.
> 
> As for your statement that he would say "schools have forgotten" to teach about the supposed Christian founding fathers, give him a history lesson, please. The puritans came to escape religious "persecution" and promptly instituted their own brand of religious horror. Many of the founding fathers were not Christian at all, but deists. Look it up. The founding fathers DELIBERATELY left god out of the Constitution because they had seen first hand the abuses brought about by mixing religion and government and wanted to avoid that.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> You suppose you have to? Please don't do me any favors. The one thing that Joey does and the rest of your group doesn't do is Joey DOES NOT put you down for your beliefs the way you do her. Joey does not personally attack you the way you do her and find it amusing to do so. I find this behavior of your group offensive, not Joey's belief in her religion.


I find that joey should be giving her own answers. If you don't like us, you don't have to follow us. Plain and simple.
Joey is an adult who can speak for herself and has no problems condemning people for not agreeing with her.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> You suppose you have to? Please don't do me any favors. The one thing that Joey does and the rest of your group doesn't do is Joey DOES NOT put you down for your beliefs the way you do her. Joey does not personally attack you the way you do her and find it amusing to do so. I find this behavior of your group offensive, not Joey's belief in her religion.


Um, I think saying or even implying that someone is going to burn in hell for disagreeing can be considered a personal attack.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Um, I think saying or even implying that someone is going to burn in hell for disagreeing can be considered a personal attack.


No kidding, Susan! :thumbup:


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Dangrktty said:


> I was a Christian for several years, and read the entire bible, word for word, beginning to end. I studied it, researched the history, etymology, and cultures of the purported authors, purported geographical areas (some either never existed, or have never been found).
> 
> I speak 5 languages, including Greek, Latin, Hebrew and have several copies of the so-called holy book, including the bad Greek translation, aka the Septuagint, copied almost word for word by the authors of the King James Version, 1611, except for the parts that were left out at the command of His Majesty and the parts that were added and changed over the years by numerous anonymous authors of questionable capabilities or motives.
> 
> ...


Do you seriously think that any of the so-called Christians on here will take note of what you have written? It's far too knowledgeable. They know what they know, and not much of it is based on study. I am prepared to be surprised, but I would bet that nobody is going to answer your specific arguments. I am planning to marry my television and all of my cats, and my food processor, just because I can (apparently).


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> You suppose you have to? Please don't do me any favors. The one thing that Joey does and the rest of your group doesn't do is Joey DOES NOT put you down for your beliefs the way you do her. Joey does not personally attack you the way you do her and find it amusing to do so. I find this behavior of your group offensive, not Joey's belief in her religion.


Joey attacks regularly and definitely puts people down for believing differently.

Exactly what do you call it when she tells people they will go to hell for not believing in Jesus? That's an attack by anyone's standards and she's done it to me repeatedly. It's not a "loving warning" either, particularly when she is aware of other's beliefs or lack of religious belief.

Just today she said that "only Born Again Christians" are fighting satan. Ummm...by implication that means she believes the rest of us are going along with evil or are promoting it. I call that a put down.

Another of her favorite insults is to make the outrageous claim that atheism is actually a religion and she proceeds to tell atheists what they believe! This is ultimately a put down because it presumes atheists don't actually KNOW what they, themselves, believe.

Think again. Joey's no saint and she relishes the argument.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

I have not seen any respect shown for our beliefs and opinions. They are as "right" to us as the beliefs held by those on the right. If you disagree with this topic and continue to post, then you either enjoy abuse or like to stir trouble. Either way, it is not conducive to constructive discussion.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

aw9358 said:


> Do you seriously think that any of the so-called Christians on here will take note of what you have written? It's far too knowledgeable. They know what they know, and not much of it is based on study. I am prepared to be surprised, but I would bet that nobody is going to answer your specific arguments. I am planning to marry my television and all of my cats, and my food processor, just because I can (apparently).


You're right, the fundies probably won't get it, but I sure enjoy reading what Dngrktty has to say!


----------



## jmf6406 (Dec 13, 2012)

Dangrktty said:


> I love New Orleans. My DH and I would live there. The angry religious people have the state in some kind of iron claw right now, so we might as well stay in TX. One of the few cities I have ever felt at home. I am an octoroon and 'blend' well.
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


You have a great attitude, but why should someone have to "blend"? As the guy on the ad for Round Up weed killer says, I get "rattlesnake mad" when I see people not being treated with dignity. Live and let live. Don't deliberately do stuff that ticks off or hurts others.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> You're right, the fundies probably won't get it, but I sure enjoy reading what Dngrktty has to say!


I am glad she has joined this thread.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

DGreen said:


> You're right, the fundies probably won't get it, but I sure enjoy reading what Dngrktty has to say!


I agree--she's wonderful!


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Make that three!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Dangrktty said:


> I was a Christian for several years, and read the entire bible, word for word, beginning to end. I studied it, researched the history, etymology, and cultures of the purported authors, purported geographical areas (some either never existed, or have never been found).
> 
> I speak 5 languages, including Greek, Latin, Hebrew and have several copies of the so-called holy book, including the bad Greek translation, aka the Septuagint, copied almost word for word by the authors of the King James Version, 1611, except for the parts that were left out at the command of His Majesty and the parts that were added and changed over the years by numerous anonymous authors of questionable capabilities or motives.
> 
> ...


Yawn. All your 'learning' and you still think a Biblical marriage is polygamy and of rape, or that if ones husband dies the woman may have to marry the deceased brother. You think you had to tell Christians that marriage licenses don't from God.

You state repeatedly that Christians are not to wear blended fiber clothing or eat shellfish, blah, blah, blah.

You understand nothing of those topics you wrote about. Better hit the Good Book and learn something this time.

You are nothing but a false witness trying to critique that which you have no understanding and you just proved same again.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Yawn. All your 'learning' and you still think a Biblical marriage is polygamy and of rape, or that if ones husband dies the woman may have to marry the deceased brother. You think you had to tell Christians that marriage licenses don't from God.
> 
> You state repeatedly that Christians are not to wear blended fiber clothing or eat shellfish, blah, blah, blah.
> 
> ...


Get off your pompous podium for a change. Anybody who thinks like you would be wrong 99% of the time. You are the definition of false witness.

Go hug a gay person. It may brighten your day.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

So back on topic - so glad the SCOTUS interpreted the law correctly and now so many will be able to enjoy the rights they should have had along. I have two sets of friends planning their marriage. One will be held at their lake house. Not sure about the location of the other.,
Did I read the news correctly? The military is now recognizing same sex partners?


----------



## SanDK7206 (Jun 3, 2015)

Yay, back on topic! I haven't read about the military, but don't see how they can avoid it. Frankly, I thought the President had already ordered it. THIS IS A HAPPY DAY for all Americans! Any move toward equal rights for everyone is a HAPPY DAY!


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Get off your pompous podium for a change. Anybody who thinks like you would be wrong 99% of the time. You are the definition of false witness.
> 
> Go hug a gay person. It may brighten your day.


I'm glad someone made some sense from that gibberish. I finally quit reading after realizing there was no point to the rambling.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Get off your pompous podium for a change. Anybody who thinks like you would be wrong 99% of the time. You are the definition of false witness.
> 
> Go hug a gay person. It may brighten your day.


I'm glad someone made some sense from that gibberish. I finally quit reading after realizing there was no point to the ranbling.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> So back on topic - so glad the SCOTUS interpreted the law correctly and now so many will be able to enjoy the rights they should have had along. I have two sets of friends planning their marriage. One will be held at their lake house. Not sure about the location of the other.,
> Did I read the news correctly? The military is now recognizing same sex partners?


Apparently--at least they'll now receive full benefits. Hard to believe there was all that stink about "Don't Ask Don't Tell" just 20 years ago, and much insane rhetoric about it "destabilizing" the military. Well, the military's sure singing a different tune now.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Apparently--at least they'll now receive full benefits. Hard to believe there was all that stink about "Don't Ask Don't Tell" just 20 years ago, and much insane rhetoric about it "destabilizing" the military. Well, the military's sure singing a different tune now.


Yes, pension and death benefits. Joyous news!


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

And in Texas, the Supreme Court put a stay on the abortion ban. May be only temporary but a step for women's rights.


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## Loistec (Jan 25, 2011)

I love this topic, I am so happy that gay people in America have won the right to marry and enjoy all the legal benefits that go along with marriage.

It is unfortunate that the religious right is so opposed to everyone having the same civil liberties that they enjoy, too bad their stubborn discriminatory attitudes still prevail.

The religious bigots are finding themselves to be in the minority now and they dont like it one bit! They are screaming "religious discrimination" because they cannot refuse to serve gays in their businesses.

They are going to have to change their attitudes, or close their businesses, yes thats their choices because thats the law.

Thank goodness the religious left is so inclusive, more and more churches are announcing they welcome everyone, that Jesus is love, not hate.

The bigots are finding themselves on the wrong side of history.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Religious discrimination is a fallacy. It is promulgated by people intolerant of others beliefs.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> Religious discrimination is a fallacy. It is promulgated by people intolerant of others beliefs.


GWPIver
So true.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> And in Texas, the Supreme Court put a stay on the abortion ban. May be only temporary but a step for women's rights.


GWPIver
no doubt that once the old folks are dust in the Wind, things will get better for Women.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Yawn. All your 'learning' and you still think a Biblical marriage is polygamy and of rape, or that if ones husband dies the woman may have to marry the deceased brother. You think you had to tell Christians that marriage licenses don't from God.
> 
> You state repeatedly that Christians are not to wear blended fiber clothing or eat shellfish, blah, blah, blah.
> 
> ...


knitpresentgifts
it is that time of day again, isn't it. Try to reduce the intake.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> GWPIver
> no doubt that once the old folks are dust in the Wind, things will get better for Women.


So agree- the gen x's and millennials were raised in diversity. They are far more accepting than our generation. I praise them.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Dangrktty said:


> I was a Christian for several years, and read the entire bible, word for word, beginning to end. I studied it, researched the history, etymology, and cultures of the purported authors, purported geographical areas (some either never existed, or have never been found).
> 
> I speak 5 languages, including Greek, Latin, Hebrew and have several copies of the so-called holy book, including the bad Greek translation, aka the Septuagint, copied almost word for word by the authors of the King James Version, 1611, except for the parts that were left out at the command of His Majesty and the parts that were added and changed over the years by numerous anonymous authors of questionable capabilities or motives.
> 
> ...


Dangrktty
Thank you. So well said. I went the same route and had the same findings.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> For the rest on this thread, You are so busy with personal attacks, you must be afraid I am right. Your comments are childish.


*You must be afraid I am right.*

That is another erroneous assumption on your part.

Childish is believing in fairy tales with no basis in fact.
Childish is never questioning even the most absurd and nonsensical religious thing one is taught.
Childish is running away (logging off) when you're cornered and don't want to admit you're wrong.
Childish is stamping your foot and insisting you're right in the face of all evidence that you're wrong.


----------



## krestiekrew (Aug 24, 2012)

Just dropping in to read today's take on things.
My town's mayor had the rainbow lights put up on our main bridge in town. Very pretty!
The only thing I think I realized today while reading is that Joey and KPG seem to have taken the role of bullies....if we were still in school, I do believe they would have been suspended for such behaviour.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Thank you, Soloweygirl. A comment I made before was in error. I'm sorry, I forgot. Jews are God's chosen people. We Christians need to stand beside you and fight for you in everything.
> 
> For the rest on this thread, You are so busy with personal attacks, you must be afraid I am right. Your comments are childish.


Fight for them? Or do you mean fight with them? 
:XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: We are afraid you are right? We know you are "right" , however we don't think that you are correct.

Go hug a gay person, it will brighten your day


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

krestiekrew said:


> Just dropping in to read today's take on things.
> My town's mayor had the rainbow lights put up on our main bridge in town. Very pretty!
> The only thing I think I realized today while reading is that Joey and KPG seem to have taken the role of bullies....if we were still in school, I do believe they would have been suspended for such behaviour.


On the contrary - someone reported me to Admin for bullying Joey and I was told to back off. Since KPG threatened to do so, I suspect it was her. The best defense is a good offence, eh?

We must all remember that the owner of this site is known to have religious beliefs similar to Joey's.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

krestiekrew said:


> Just dropping in to read today's take on things.
> My town's mayor had the rainbow lights put up on our main bridge in town. Very pretty!
> The only thing I think I realized today while reading is that Joey and KPG seem to have taken the role of bullies....if we were still in school, I do believe they would have been suspended for such behaviour.


I find their behavior and that of the other nay-sayers strange beyond belief. Has it ever crossed their minds that their views on marriage equality might be wrong? If not, how can they look at all those joyful, teary-eyed folks and not at least have the decency to button their lips and let gay couples and their supporters enjoy the day?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Hildy60 said:


> joeysomma wrote:
> Actually, this same sex marriage has nothing to do with LOVE or marriage. It is to tear down traditional marriage and to make marriage worthless. Also to control anyone who speaks or acts against them. Then to silence Christians. Born again Christians are the only enemy of Satan. These Homo-activists are members of Satan's Army. Presently they are winning. But God is in control, and he will be the final winner!
> 
> Yep. The entire ordeal is to change the very definition of marriage as defined by God. I expect we'll now see people who want to marry more than one person, of any sex, to multiple people (regardless of male/female/undecided) and next to marry an animal or doorstop or whatever the heck comes into their heads. The courts are now making the decisions for the American people, so anything is game. No more will Congress create the laws or uphold the laws on which our Country was founded. Now it will be up to whomever is elected, appointed or takes over by force
> ...


You and your husband are deep thinkers. :thumbup:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> On the contrary - someone reported me to Admin for bullying Joey and I was told to back off. Since KPG threatened to do so, I suspect it was her. The best defense is a good offence, eh?
> 
> We must all remember that the owner of this site is known to have religious beliefs similar to Joey's.


If anyone is bullying it's joey and KPG shoving *unwanted* religious crap down our throats. They came to pee all over this thread because it is not what they want. I don't think that anyone on KP should have to put up with constant bible spewing from anyone especially if they know that the person they are antagonizing is an athiest , Christian, or Jew who do not agree with them. If the person/persons that they choose as victims don't want to hear it, they should stop. It's just another form of bullying.
Let them run to admin like little school girls. It just proves that we have been right about them all along. 
It must suck to be them when the world around them is changing and they can't keep up.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Dangrktty said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


I wonder if they ever walk on the sunny side of the street. It's all doom and gloom with them.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SanDK said:


> Yay, back on topic! I haven't read about the military, but don't see how they can avoid it. Frankly, I thought the President had already ordered it. THIS IS A HAPPY DAY for all Americans! Any move toward equal rights for everyone is a HAPPY DAY!










[/url]


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## krestiekrew (Aug 24, 2012)

DGreen said:


> On the contrary - someone reported me to Admin for bullying Joey and I was told to back off. Since KPG threatened to do so, I suspect it was her. The best defense is a good offence, eh?
> 
> We must all remember that the owner of this site is known to have religious beliefs similar to Joey's.


I said it, it was my opinion, oh well. Sorry you got reported on. I don't have a problem with a person's faith or lack of faith, or different religion, or color...I don't have a problem with someone stating a belief different than mine. However, I do have a problem when someone says my way is the only way, that is being a bully. If that was the case then there wouldn't be Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, and even more ..... it would all be just one which it isn't.
-30-


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Dangrktty said:


> I wondered how long it would take for that little chestnut to rear its ugly head, and here it is. Page 35. Normally, I would call that remarkable restraint, but I have read your previous posts.
> 
> Nah.
> 
> ...


This is a fabulous post!


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> I have not seen any respect shown for our beliefs and opinions. They are as "right" to us as the beliefs held by those on the right. If you disagree with this topic and continue to post, then you either enjoy abuse or like to stir trouble. Either way, it is not conducive to constructive discussion.


Well put GW.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Thank you, Soloweygirl. A comment I made before was in error. I'm sorry, I forgot. Jews are God's chosen people. We Christians need to stand beside you and fight for you in everything.
> 
> For the rest on this thread, You are so busy with personal attacks, you must be afraid I am right. Your comments are childish.


Hmmmp! Please go research the "Confederate Flag" thread and see how your comrades speak about God's Chosen People. Are you aware that we dominated the slave trade and were even so powerful that on Jewish Holidays were able to shut down the slave markets for those days? Note also which of your comrades had a huge thumb up for these brilliant sentiments. We don't need or want your support of Israel. You are vicious bigots in for your own fantastical gains. Feh!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> Hmmmp! Please go research the "Confederate Flag" thread and see how your comrades speak about God's Chosen People. Are you aware that we dominated the slave trade and were even so powerful that on Jewish Holidays were able to shut down the slave markets for those days? Note also which of your comrades had a huge thumb up for these brilliant sentiments. We don't need or want your support of Israel. You are vicious bigots in for your own fantastical gains. Feh!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

krestiekrew said:


> I said it, it was my opinion, oh well. Sorry you got reported on. I don't have a problem with a person's faith or lack of faith, or different religion, or color...I don't have a problem with someone stating a belief different than mine. However, I do have a problem when someone says my way is the only way, that is being a bully. If that was the case then there wouldn't be Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, and even more ..... it would all be just one which it isn't.
> -30-


You are correct. The Christian Church is divided in many different Churches as you state above- and in many cases they are very different from each other. The people who are so anxious to judge, and who are so anxious to say they are the only ones who KNOW what God wants are only one group of the Churches. I know many many Christians who are horrified at posts like Joey's and the person who posted right after her. Many many Christians have posted that they are delighted that the law has been clarified and all Americans can now marry. Not just a chosen few.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

DGreen said:


> On the contrary - someone reported me to Admin for bullying Joey and I was told to back off. Since KPG threatened to do so, I suspect it was her. The best defense is a good offence, eh?
> 
> We must all remember that the owner of this site is known to have religious beliefs similar to Joey's.


Oh that's rich!


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> You are correct. The Christian Church is divided in many different Churches as you state above- and in many cases they are very different from each other. The people who are so anxious to judge, and who are so anxious to say they are the only ones who KNOW what God wants are only one group of the Churches. I know many many Christians who are horrified at posts like Joey's and the person who posted right after her. Many many Christians have posted that they are delighted that the law has been clarified and all Americans can now marry. Not just a chosen few.


I think that the majority of Christians agree with Supreme Court ruling. It's the extremists that are vocal.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> On the contrary - someone reported me to Admin for bullying Joey and I was told to back off. Since KPG threatened to do so, I suspect it was her. The best defense is a good offence, eh?
> 
> We must all remember that the owner of this site is known to have religious beliefs similar to Joey's.


If joey would learn to back off when asked to, there would be no problem.
As for the other one, it's just to be expected. She hates liberals and anything we stand for. It's just par for the course for her.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Shannon123 said:


> "God is in control". How's that working out? Today's headline in my small town newspaper: Murdered infant's parents arrested.
> 
> What a kind of god will condemn those who choose to love each other yet let an innocent baby be born then tortured for 4 weeks of their life? Your beliefs make me sick!


Well said.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> I think that the majority of Christians agree with Supreme Court ruling. It's the extremists that are vocal.


Yes, GW, I agree with you. Christian extremists can be just as dangerous as any other religious extremist.

The majority of true Christians don't run around condemning people to hell. They keep their religion in their hearts and not wear it on their sleeves.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Both of you are so full of hate that I can't believe you claim to be true Christians -- how do you know that same sex marriage is nothing to do with Love? Are you walking in their shoes.
> 
> Who are you to judge their feelings?
> They are citizens and have the same rights of other Americans- What happened to 'do unto others as ye would have them do unto you', or' love thy neighbour'. It seems to have flownout the window with both of you. Do you think Jesus would expect you to treat other Americans the way you do and say the things you do?
> ...


I strongly agree. They both lack understanding, empathy and compassion. I honestly hope and wish that they could open their eyes and their hearts. Maybe one day the blinkers will be removed from their eyes and the binders will be removed from their hearts. So many people have been hurt in the past by such myopic views, so many people have had their lives ruined by people's condemnation. How many people have taken their own life because of the closed minded attitude of people who refuse to understand?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> Do you seriously think that any of the so-called Christians on here will take note of what you have written? It's far too knowledgeable. They know what they know, and not much of it is based on study. I am prepared to be surprised, but I would bet that nobody is going to answer your specific arguments. I am planning to marry my television and all of my cats, and my food processor, just because I can (apparently).


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> I think that the majority of Christians agree with Supreme Court ruling. It's the extremists that are vocal.


GWPIver
that is what I am finding. Always a handful of screamers who want to rule the majority. Bullies as someone called them is the proper description of them.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

So, three priests were going on a trip to Pennsylvania. The turnstile to go through to get to the train required correct change. They couldn't help but notice the blond busty woman wearing a see through top in the change booth. The youngest priest volunteered to get the change. 
'Young lady, I would like three pickets to Tittsburgh.."
Realizing what he did he walked away embarrassed and asked one of the other priests to go. The second priest chuckled and walked up to the booth.
"Good Afternoon! I would like 3 tickets to Pittsburgh. I would like my change in quarters, dimes, and nipples."
Aghast, he ran from the booth.
The older priest said "I can't believe you two. I'll go.
He walks up to the window and says"Give me 3 tickets to Pittsburgh and my change in quarters dimes and nickels.
One more thing, young lady, wearing a blouse as revealing as that , I would say that if you get to heaven, St Finger is going to shake his pe..r at you!"


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> So back on topic - so glad the SCOTUS interpreted the law correctly and now so many will be able to enjoy the rights they should have had along. I have two sets of friends planning their marriage. One will be held at their lake house. Not sure about the location of the other.,
> Did I read the news correctly? The military is now recognizing same sex partners?


Scarily, I heard noises about the SCOTUS decision being appealed and reversed. Say it isn't so?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> If anyone is bullying it's joey and KPG shoving *unwanted* religious crap down our throats. They came to pee all over this thread because it is not what they want. I don't think that anyone on KP should have to put up with constant bible spewing from anyone especially if they know that the person they are antagonizing is an athiest , Christian, or Jew who do not agree with them. If the person/persons that they choose as victims don't want to hear it, they should stop. It's just another form of bullying.
> Let them run to admin like little school girls. It just proves that we have been right about them all along.
> It must suck to be them when the world around them is changing and they can't keep up.


==========================
I agree -- but do remember, when we do report them, even if it is about the worst post made on these threads,, it means if we report them we are not allowed to post on their threads, even if it is about something current and if you don't know it is HER thread. ask me how I know!! I was told 
"she didn't want me there" and to stay away from 
'her' thread.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

krestiekrew said:


> I said it, it was my opinion, oh well. Sorry you got reported on. I don't have a problem with a person's faith or lack of faith, or different religion, or color...I don't have a problem with someone stating a belief different than mine. However, I do have a problem when someone says my way is the only way, that is being a bully. If that was the case then there wouldn't be Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, and even more ..... it would all be just one which it isn't.
> -30-


Just for the record, I think you're right about the bullying.

Meh. I don't think anything will change. Fundamentalists and Born-agains are passionate in their beliefs.

It is what it is


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Loistec said:


> I love this topic, I am so happy that gay people in America have won the right to marry and enjoy all the legal benefits that go along with marriage.
> 
> It is unfortunate that the religious right is so opposed to everyone having the same civil liberties that they enjoy, too bad their stubborn discriminatory attitudes still prevail.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> You suppose you have to? Please don't do me any favors. The one thing that Joey does and the rest of your group doesn't do is Joey DOES NOT put you down for your beliefs the way you do her. Joey does not personally attack you the way you do her and find it amusing to do so. I find this behavior of your group offensive, not Joey's belief in her religion.


Well, yes she does. When she tells me that I am going to burn in hell forever because I do not follow her particular brand of religion I can only term that as an attack on me and my philosophical belief system. If I came back and quoted the Sutras at Joey and said that because of her actions she would be reborn many, many times and reborn into suffering, perhaps even reborn into a lower form of sentient being I am sure she would run screaming to Admin and demand that I be suspended because I had attacked her and her beliefs. Well Hindus believe that rebirth does not have to take place as a human and can take the form of a lower sentient being. Hinduism by the way predates Christianity. I find that Joey does act the bully towards anyone who does not follow her extremely narrow beliefs. I find that she has a total lack of understanding of Eastern religions and that she does not show any inclination of learning about those religions. I find that she just condemns with her constant bible quotes.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> knitpresentgifts
> it is that time of day again, isn't it. Try to reduce the intake.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I am another who recently reported she who will remain nameless - for posting an absolutely horrible post accusing us of so many evils etc. I asked admin to read it and if they felt it . I received a reply back that they would' talk to her'. A week later I posted on one of the threads and didn't realize she was the 'owner' of the thread.
> 
> She made another really nasty post about the 'liberalsl' and I wrote ' same old, same old' under her rant.
> 
> ...


Really! Maybe we should send Admin a list of people that we don't want posting in our threads.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Scarily, I heard noises about the SCOTUS decision being appealed and reversed. Say it isn't so?


The far right republicans will scream that for a while, just like they did for the ACA. Let them scream until their throats disintergrate. I don't think it will happen.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I wonder if they ever walk on the sunny side of the street. It's all doom and gloom with them.


Brat, I swear, I crack up laughing every time I look at your avatar! :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: It's great!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Hmmmp! Please go research the "Confederate Flag" thread and see how your comrades speak about God's Chosen People. Are you aware that we dominated the slave trade and were even so powerful that on Jewish Holidays were able to shut down the slave markets for those days? Note also which of your comrades had a huge thumb up for these brilliant sentiments. We don't need or want your support of Israel. You are vicious bigots in for your own fantastical gains. Feh!


 :thumbup:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Just for the record, I think you're right about the bullying.
> 
> Meh. I don't think anything will change. Fundamentalists and Born-agains are passionate in their beliefs.
> 
> It is what it is


So are Islamic extremists....


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I strongly agree. They both lack understanding, empathy and compassion. I honestly hope and wish that they could open their eyes and their hearts. Maybe one day the blinkers will be removed from their eyes and the binders will be removed from their hearts. So many people have been hurt in the past by such myopic views, so many people have had their lives ruined by people's condemnation. How many people have taken their own life because of the closed minded attitude of people who refuse to understand?


Far, far too many.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I strongly agree. They both lack understanding, empathy and compassion. I honestly hope and wish that they could open their eyes and their hearts. Maybe one day the blinkers will be removed from their eyes and the binders will be removed from their hearts. So many people have been hurt in the past by such myopic views, so many people have had their lives ruined by people's condemnation. How many people have taken their own life because of the closed minded attitude of people who refuse to understand?


Far too many people. Unfortunately, we'll never be free of these attitudes because in many cases, it's more about not being at all willing to CONSIDER other people's beliefs; it's too important to be right all the time. A facet of human nature.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> So, three priests were going on a trip to Pennsylvania. The turnstile to go through to get to the train required correct change. They couldn't help but notice the blond busty woman wearing a see through top in the change booth. The youngest priest volunteered to get the change.
> 'Young lady, I would like three pickets to Tittsburgh.."
> Realizing what he did he walked away embarrassed and asked one of the other priests to go. The second priest chuckled and walked up to the booth.
> "Good Afternoon! I would like 3 tickets to Pittsburgh. I would like my change in quarters, dimes, and nipples."
> ...


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Brat, I swear, I crack up laughing every time I look at your avatar! :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: It's great!


Always happy to bring a smile to someone's face, Wombat. :-D :-D


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I am another who recently reported she who will remain nameless - for posting an absolutely horrible post accusing us of so many evils etc. I asked admin to read it and if they felt it . I received a reply back that they would' talk to her'. A week later I posted on one of the threads and didn't realize she was the 'owner' of the thread.
> 
> She made another really nasty post about the 'liberalsl' and I wrote ' same old, same old' under her rant.
> 
> ...


Very interesting Designer. Especially when one considers the fact that in all of your time here you have consistently added to the site with your teaching, KALS etc., and the unnamed hasn't AND, you have never been suspended yet unnamed has. Skewed values IMHO.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Thank you, Soloweygirl. A comment I made before was in error. I'm sorry, I forgot. Jews are God's chosen people. We Christians need to stand beside you and fight for you in everything.
> 
> For the rest on this thread, You are so busy with personal attacks, you must be afraid I am right. Your comments are childish.


Your friend defended you and said that you did not put other posters down; well your last sentence is definitely a put down. To tell someone that their comments are childish is definitely a put down and bullying. It implies that you know and understand more than they do; that they are only children and need educating.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Always happy to bring a smile to someone's face, Wombat. :-D :-D


Trust me Brat, you do. Right now, tears streaming down! Seriously, the avatar gets me going every time. Thank you!


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> On the contrary - someone reported me to Admin for bullying Joey and I was told to back off. Since KPG threatened to do so, I suspect it was her. The best defense is a good offence, eh?
> 
> We must all remember that the owner of this site is known to have religious beliefs similar to Joey's.


No, I did not know anything about the religious beliefs of the owner of this site. I guess I had never had any reason to think about their religious beliefs.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

*


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Well, yes she does. When she tells me that I am going to burn in hell forever because I do not follow her particular brand of religion I can only term that as an attack on me and my philosophical belief system. If I came back and quoted the Sutras at Joey and said that because of her actions she would be reborn many, many times and reborn into suffering, perhaps even reborn into a lower form of sentient being I am sure she would run screaming to Admin and demand that I be suspended because I had attacked her and her beliefs. Well Hindus believe that rebirth does not have to take place as a human and can take the form of a lower sentient being. Hinduism by the way predates Christianity. I find that Joey does act the bully towards anyone who does not follow her extremely narrow beliefs. I find that she has a total lack of understanding of Eastern religions and that she does not show any inclination of learning about those religions. I find that she just condemns with her constant bible quotes.


=======================
Agreed Eve!!!
We don't interrupt a thread as does Joey, and preach and Preach and Preach. She is certainly entitled to believe what she wants. So are we! She spend hours, days, and months 
hassling us - she knows we don't agree, she knows she is not 
welcome and still she thumbs her nose at us.

We do not want to hear from her. If she has so little pride and so little manners, then we will let her know what we think. She has the right to her beliefs - she DOESN'T have the right to shove it down my throat or anyone elses. So if she or you or anyone else is defending I would suggest she go and preach somewhere else.

I find it offensive. I am a Christian, however I don't begin to agree with Joey - I have that right -I don't agree with her methods or most of her statements. I believe what is taught in the Church I attend and there is love there, not hate for those who don't agree with us- There are those who feel they have the right to Preach to those of other Christian faiths and those who are not Christians - they are 
overstepping and extremely rude.

THAT people dare to feel they have a right to a marriage 
when Joey and her ilk insult them, and post all over the place how evil it is - is just too bad. They have the same rights as everyone else.

I would hope that threads like this are celebrating instead of insulting and that we are happy that two people who love each other are able to have the same rights as we do.

Same sex marriage has been allowed in Canada for a few years. There has been nothing dreadful happen. It happened fairly quietly, those who are in same sex relationships are quietly marrying, and thereby receiving the same benefits all married couples do. It has not caused an upheaval in Canada. I have heard absolutely nothing about it since the first gay marriage occurred.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Trust me Brat, you do. Right now, tears streaming down! Seriously, the avatar gets me going every time. Thank you!


Then I shall keep it just for you, Wombat


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> We don't interrupt a thread as does Joey, and preach and Preach and Preach. She is certainly entitled to believe what she wants. So are we! She spend hours, days, and months
> hassling us - she knows we don't agree, she knows she is not
> welcome and still she thumbs her nose at us.
> 
> ...


I have assigned the name "Psuedo-Christian" for people who do that. No church that I have attended ever said that it was okay for Christians to condemn anyone to hell. It is part of the "reborn" cult guidebook to irritate the heck out of people and place themselves in the role of God Himself.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> *


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


 :XD: :XD: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I have assigned the name "Psuedo-Christian" for people who do that. No church that I have attended ever said that it was okay for Christians to condemn anyone to hell. It is part of the "reborn" cult guidebook to irritate the heck out of people and place themselves in the role of God Himself. Boy are they in for a shock when they die!


I just say, I am not afraid to meet my God so don't Preach that I am not worthy.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Far, far too many.


The thing is, I don't see happiness in a lot of those who are so Judgmental. Kind thoughts make you kind -- negative thoughts make you negative - They must sometimes wonder whether they are on the right track -- how can they 
treat others as if they are so superior, and so RIGHT.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> The thing is, I don't see happiness in a lot of those who are so Judgmental. Kind thoughts make you kind -- negative thoughts make you negative - They must sometimes wonder whether they are on the right track -- how can they
> treat others as if they are so superior, and so RIGHT.


They need to get the gloom and doom expelled from their minds and hearts.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I just say, I am not afraid to meet my God so don't Preach that I am not worthy.


And who are they to judge?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Yes, GW, I agree with you. Christian extremists can be just as dangerous as any other religious extremist.
> 
> The majority of true Christians don't run around condemning people to hell. They keep their religion in their hearts and not wear it on their sleeves.


EXACTLY - you put it very well. As soon as I hear someone spouting their religion to me I feel antagonized. I grew up in that type of home. I escaped it . I won't accept it from anyone. It is the fact that 'they are the only ones who KNOW what God wants. what a crock. In my Church we learn about kindness, acceptance of differences, treating those less fortunate by helping in as many ways as is necessary.

All they do is Preach how much better they are than any others Including other Christians.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> EXACTLY - you put it very well. As soon as I hear someone spouting their religion to me I feel antagonized. I grew up in that type of home. I escaped it . I won't accept it from anyone. It is the fact that 'they are the only ones who KNOW what God wants. what a crock. In my Church we learn about kindness, acceptance of differences, treating those less fortunate by helping in as many ways as is necessary.
> 
> All they do is Preach how much better they are than any others Including other Christians.


St Finger will deal with them :wink:


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Your friend defended you and said that you did not put other posters down; well your last sentence is definitely a put down. To tell someone that their comments are childish is definitely a put down and bullying. It implies that you know and understand more than they do; that they are only children and need educating.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

!


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> !


You are on a roll tonight. Hitting all the nails right on the head. :thumbup:


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

SQM said:


> Hmmmp! Please go research the "Confederate Flag" thread and see how your comrades speak about God's Chosen People. Are you aware that we dominated the slave trade and were even so powerful that on Jewish Holidays were able to shut down the slave markets for those days? Note also which of your comrades had a huge thumb up for these brilliant sentiments. We don't need or want your support of Israel. You are vicious bigots in for your own fantastical gains. Feh!


With "friends" like joey who needs enemies. Feh, indeed!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> You are on a roll tonight. Hitting all the nails right on the head. :thumbup:


Hiya, Cheeky! I do my best!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

karverr said:


> How can making a statement about how I feel be construed as arguing. I could have made a comment on every post but I didn't cause that would have been arguing. there is a difference between arguing an stating an opinion.


We know your opinion of same sex marriage- you opened a thread telling us all about your personal experience and beliefs and experience on one of these threads - and you made yourself clear- I feel very sorry for you. I am just thankful that my Christian beliefs are kinder than yours are.

I could never ever make the decision you made. I will never understand you.

I see you haven't softened your thoughts or approach.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> EXACTLY - you put it very well. As soon as I hear someone spouting their religion to me I feel antagonized. I grew up in that type of home. I escaped it . I won't accept it from anyone. It is the fact that 'they are the only ones who KNOW what God wants. what a crock. In my Church we learn about kindness, acceptance of differences, treating those less fortunate by helping in as many ways as is necessary.
> 
> All they do is Preach how much better they are than any others Including other Christians.


I always consider you to be one of the few 'genuine' Christians that I have met. You would have loved my best friend I had when I lived in Mt Barker. If anyone knocked at her door at meal time she would always ask them if they had eaten and invite them to join her and her husband and her sister at the meal table. She would invite strangers to join her not just friends. She was a beautiful person. She lived until she was 101 years old, she was the same age as my mother, both were born in 1905. In many ways you remind me of Amy, she was a truly beautiful person and a true Christian. She never preached at anyone. She attended church every Sunday and often during the week also. Everyone loved her.


----------



## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> Do you seriously think that any of the so-called Christians on here will take note of what you have written? It's far too knowledgeable. They know what they know, and not much of it is based on study. I am prepared to be surprised, but I would bet that nobody is going to answer your specific arguments. I am planning to marry my television and all of my cats, and my food processor, just because I can (apparently).


No, of course not. That would require research, critical thinking, and ...work !

The same recalcitrant posters are on other threads here on KP in the last day or so invoking the Power of Greyskull with both hands, bemoaning doom and gloom, the sky is falling, etc., condescending arrogance, wagging their fingers and chiding others about hell.

On a higher note, Marriage Equality is a reality for all Americans. Never thought I would see it happen in my lifetime, really thought all the old angry behemoths would have to go extinct first.

All the best and every happiness to all the young couples and those who have waited a lifetime to enjoy the same rights and privileges the rest of us already have.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Dangrktty said:


> No, of course not. That would require research, critical thinking, and ...work !
> 
> The same recalcitrant posters are on other threads here on KP in the last day or so invoking the Power of Greyskull with both hands, bemoaning doom and gloom, the sky is falling, etc., condescending arrogance, wagging their fingers and chiding others about hell.
> 
> On a higher note, Marriage Equality is a reality for all Americans. Never thought I would see it happen in my lifetime, really thought all the old angry behemoths would have to go extinct first.


Really, the change in attitude has been unbelievable. If only we Americans could be so sensible about other issues, like gun control!


----------



## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

jmf6406 said:


> You have a great attitude, but why should someone have to "blend"? As the guy on the ad for Round Up weed killer says, I get "rattlesnake mad" when I see people not being treated with dignity. Live and let live. Don't deliberately do stuff that ticks off or hurts others.


Are you white ? Unambiguously white?

I am not, and I don't have to blend. However, I do enjoy being around others who look like me and appreciate me for the person I am, rather than my appearance. After awhile, a very short while, it is tiresome to get stares and rude comments under the breath from unthinking people..." What is she, anyway"?


----------



## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

DGreen said:


> *You must be afraid I am right.*
> 
> That is another erroneous assumption on your part.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Dangrktty said:


> Are you white ? Unambiguously white?
> 
> I am not, and I don't have to blend. However, I do enjoy being around others who look like me and appreciate me for the person I am, rather than my appearance. After awhile, a very short while, it is tiresome to get stares and rude comments under the breath from unthinking people..." What is she, anyway"?


My, that sounds familiar. My brother's kids are half-Burmese, and so they have Asian features but darker skin tones than one would expect to see in folks from Japan or China. They do get a lot of questions and curious looks from others, but happily it's never progressed to the point of rudeness (as far as I know).


----------



## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> !


Pinned it !

:XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Dangrktty said:


> I thought the sex was the sin. A wedding is just a celebration of love and happiness. I didn't know the baker had to have sex to bake a cake.


Yes. The baker must engage in sex with the LGBT couple. And do it everday in the shop window for 6 days. Then rest on the sabbath.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Yes. The baker must engage in sex with the LGBT couple. And do it everday in the shop window for 6 days. Then rest on the sabbath.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> Yes. The baker must engage in sex with the LGBT couple. And do it everday in the shop window for 6 days. Then rest on the sabbath.


But he or she must go to church on Sunday and sing in the choir, then they can go home and rest.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm not the one confused, that would be you, ute4kp, bless your heart.
> 
> Here is our exchange from June 25 at 17:35:38, page 11, on the _Brian Williams and Falling Ratings_ thread exactly as I reiterated:
> 
> http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-344286-11.html#7530464


1. You must be in love with me to dwell on my writings. You know what *that* means. You're lesbian if you're a woman.
2. The symbols mean being tongue tied.
3. You must have a spreadsheet going.
4. I don't care about your minutia from other topics.
5. Hahaha hahahahaha hahaha. 
6. 
Remember to drink eight glasses of water a day.
Five veggies and two fruit a day is the way to go.
More fibre in your diet is a must.
Remember, passive smoking is just as dangerous and smoking yourself.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I think she already does it for free. No need to pay her SQ. :XD:


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> What the heck are you talking about? Where or what is your question?
> 
> You are one confused poster.


Remember to drink eight glasses of water a day.
Five veggies and two fruit a day is the way to go.
More fibre in your diet is a must.
Remember, passive smoking is just as dangerous and smoking yourself.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I hope it goes as well down here as in Canada. There has been very little if any problems about Same Sex marriage.
> 
> In fact I just found out that there are some Americans living up here so that they can live normal lives. My nephew is gay and was Like Bruce - they married 3 days after it was made legal.


Congrats to the happy couple! !


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> 1. You must be in love with me to dwell on my writings. You know what *that* means. You're lesbian if you're a woman.
> 2. The symbols mean being tongue tied.
> 3. You must have a spreadsheet going.
> 4. I don't care about your minutia from other topics.
> ...


In so many ways she reminds me of my ex. He always said I was a little dimwitted as I often took ages to answer a question. No, I was trying to choose my words very carefully because I knew that whatever I said would be twisted and thrown back at me 20 years later. He would say, "you said" and when I asked him when I said that he would give the the date I uttered those words and to whom I said them. The only thing was he often twisted my words to give them an entirely different meaning to what I had actually said.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Have you seen the mob that reckon they are going there? Would you honestly choose to spend any length of time with them? And sitting around on your derriere for any extended length of time and just singing 'glory, glory, glory and hallelujah' would be so boring. Honestly, would you really want to go there.


 :XD: :XD:


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> This is so true!


Remember to drink eight glasses of water a day.
Five veggies and two fruit a day is the way to go.
More fibre in your diet is a must.
Remember, passive smoking is just as dangerous and smoking yourself.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> What a stupid meme you posted. You probably thought it a degrading and relative 'sound bite' to Christians for the topic being discussed.
> 
> The Roman verses are accurately copied from The Bible. However, Christians are subject to and told to obey the law and governing authorities and not break the law or intentionally ignore those laws which govern. That isn't to say all Christians MUST ACCEPT (as stated in the meme) any ill conceived ideals, principles or beliefs or illegal laws which are in direct opposition to God's word and teachings.
> 
> ...


<<<< smooches >>>> ♡♡♡♡


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You may have studied it, but you didn't learn or comprehend much as evidenced by your posts on KP.
> 
> You are embarrassing yourself in your attempt to belittle Christians. You do not know me nor my Christian walk.
> 
> I'm happy to share God's love and Word with you and anyone. I'll also correct any mistake or falsehood about my faith you produce as I choose. I have no religion, that's your gig.


Very sweet. ♡♡♡♡♡


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I will follow God's Law! Then man's law, if and only if, it does not disagree with God's Law.


Five veggies and two fruit a day is the way to go.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Hildy60 said:


> joeysomma wrote:
> Actually, this same sex marriage has nothing to do with LOVE or marriage. It is to tear down traditional marriage and to make marriage worthless. Also to control anyone who speaks or acts against them. Then to silence Christians. Born again Christians are the only enemy of Satan. These Homo-activists are members of Satan's Army. Presently they are winning. But God is in control, and he will be the final winner!
> 
> Yep. The entire ordeal is to change the very definition of marriage as defined by God. I expect we'll now see people who want to marry more than one person, of any sex, to multiple people (regardless of male/female/undecided) and next to marry an animal or doorstop or whatever the heck comes into their heads. The courts are now making the decisions for the American people, so anything is game. No more will Congress create the laws or uphold the laws on which our Country was founded. Now it will be up to whomever is elected, appointed or takes over by force
> ...


Remember to drink eight glasses of water a day.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Gay marriage is still counterfeit. It is NOT a marriage. Marriage was ordained by God between one man and one woman. Government can call it a civil union, but it is NOT MARRIAGE. It is evil, no good can ever come from it. You may think it is good, but only for the moment.
> 
> If you are one of 100 people standing on a 500 foot cliff. And 99 jump off, are you going with the majority and also jump? I will NEVER go with the majority, if they are wrong! The Bible says they are wrong. I believe what the Bible says.


More fibre in your diet is a must.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


 :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Hi Hildy, Joeysomma wrote the first paragraph you reposted and I wrote the 2nd. Sadly, our country no longer is governed by The USA Constitution, but our Congress and President have allowed appointed (not elected by the people) Supreme Court justices to legislate and write/changes laws. Writing laws and legislating is not the job of any court or judge. America has changed, not by the voice of the people, but by those who now rule by their emotions and their personal and political persuasions.
> 
> America is well on its path to destruction.


Hate your next door neighbor but don't forget to say grace.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

strikkestedegaver said:


> Loving, committed homosexual relationships are not sinful, FYI.


Don't you just love when they judge?


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Dang, rktty! You are so misguided in your Biblical interpretations you are hilarious in some crazy way. :-D
> 
> You must realize it takes no thought or much in the way of brains to quote scriptures like you are trying to do to make a point. Any idiot can quote and take a verse or chapter literally or out of context as you do.
> 
> ...


Gee some battery operated device must have you in a tizzy....such as an alarm clock.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> 1. You must be in love with me to dwell on my writings. You know what *that* means. You're lesbian if you're a woman.
> 2. The symbols mean being tongue tied.
> 3. You must have a spreadsheet going.
> 4. I don't care about your minutia from other topics.
> ...


It needs lots of fiber, ute 
:XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Gee some battery operated device must have you in a tizzy....such as an alarm clock.


...biting my tongue


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm ROFLMBO at your stupid statements especially because you think you understand what your talking about. :XD: You don't.


Oh me oh my!!! You wrote Dangrktty is ignorant!!!!
A preacher is being dispatched to your home right now to throw the bible at you!!!


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> :thumbup: Sin is still sin no matter what man makes into law. God word will stand thru eternity. Amen


Wise. You are so wise. Wiseacre. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Yes


No.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Hildy60 said:


> While my husband and I are both Catholics even he would admit I am the person of faith. My husband's objections are based more on the activist judges who are attempting to re-write the US Constitution which he has taken an oath to defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic. I must admit I am in a way thankful for this painful court decision as it seems to have awaken my husband's faith in our lord. He would say the school's are apparently forgetting to teach that this great country was created by Christians many of whom came to this country to get away from religious persecution which now seems to be returning with a vengeance.
> 
> My objections are clearly on religious grounds, from my bible readings and bible study which many times are with other protestant faiths. My husband and I are both college educated, we are in a marriage that is a partnership of equals soon to be 38 years. We have had many difficult issues in life to deal with but one of the hardest is when our youngest son who is now in his 30's told me sometime ago he is homosexual. We still speak but it has been very difficult because like many of the comments on this forum my son who is well aware of my faith in God has made many disparaging remarks about my Christian values which he has been around all his life. My son knows he is still welcome in our home but when he is in our home he has to respect our values and not try to force his on us. He also knows as we have told him we have nothing but the best wishes for him, we still love him and pray for him.
> 
> ...


How sad for you not to be capable of loving your son for who he is.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> To be honest, I don't hear too much critical thinking from the liberals either. Most of what is regurgitated is from the liberal playbook, cliff notes, propaganda booklets and blogs. Typical party line talking points, nothing more.
> 
> How much do your blinders chafe? Got ointment?


She's passing around the hemorrhoid ointment and applying to anyone who needs it. ♡♡♡♡♡


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> How sad for you not to be capable of loving your son for who he is.


I agree, Ute. And I can't help wondering how the heck Son is "trying to force his values" on anyone...by wanting to bring his boyfriend/husband over to meet his parents? By not keeping silent when the poster and her husband lecture and/or try to pray the gay away? I think it's very strange that Son is expected to respect their values, but they obviously have no respect for his.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Both of you are so full of hate that I can't believe you claim to be true Christians -- how do you know that same sex marriage is nothing to do with Love? Are you walking in their shoes.
> 
> Who are you to judge their feelings?
> They are citizens and have the same rights of other Americans- What happened to 'do unto others as ye would have them do unto you', or' love thy neighbour'. It seems to have flownout the window with both of you. Do you think Jesus would expect you to treat other Americans the way you do and say the things you do?
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Yawn. All your 'learning' and you still think a Biblical marriage is polygamy and of rape, or that if ones husband dies the woman may have to marry the deceased brother. You think you had to tell Christians that marriage licenses don't from God.
> 
> You state repeatedly that Christians are not to wear blended fiber clothing or eat shellfish, blah, blah, blah.
> 
> ...


You're unbelievable GF. ♡♡♡♡♡♡


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Loistec said:


> I love this topic, I am so happy that gay people in America have won the right to marry and enjoy all the legal benefits that go along with marriage.
> 
> It is unfortunate that the religious right is so opposed to everyone having the same civil liberties that they enjoy, too bad their stubborn discriminatory attitudes still prevail.
> 
> ...


You're so right Loistec !! :thumbup:


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

DGreen said:


> On the contrary - someone reported me to Admin for bullying Joey and I was told to back off. Since KPG threatened to do so, I suspect it was her. The best defense is a good offence, eh?
> 
> We must all remember that the owner of this site is known to have religious beliefs similar to Joey's.


I'm on the hades list now.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> [/url]


Just replying to hopfully continue the wave.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

SQM said:


> Hmmmp! Please go research the "Confederate Flag" thread and see how your comrades speak about God's Chosen People. Are you aware that we dominated the slave trade and were even so powerful that on Jewish Holidays were able to shut down the slave markets for those days? Note also which of your comrades had a huge thumb up for these brilliant sentiments. We don't need or want your support of Israel. You are vicious bigots in for your own fantastical gains. Feh!


Squirrel clapping.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> But he or she must go to church on Sunday and sing in the choir, then they can go home and rest.


I forgot about that. Thanks for a reminder. He he.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> In so many ways she reminds me of my ex. He always said I was a little dimwitted as I often took ages to answer a question. No, I was trying to choose my words very carefully because I knew that whatever I said would be twisted and thrown back at me 20 years later. He would say, "you said" and when I asked him when I said that he would give the the date I uttered those words and to whom I said them. The only thing was he often twisted my words to give them an entirely different meaning to what I had actually said.


Oh that's just not natural. ...as in very odd and annoying and creepy.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> ...biting my tongue


It's only an alarm clock. He he he he.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree, Ute. And I can't help wondering how the heck Son is "trying to force his values" on anyone...by wanting to bring his boyfriend/husband over to meet his parents? By not keeping silent when the poster and her husband lecture and/or try to pray the gay away? I think it's very strange that Son is expected to respect their values, but they obviously have no respect for his.


I know. Son comes over and they must act like cold fish. God forbid!!! They raised a homosexual! !!! Theý must have made him that way. They did it!!!!! (Not, just saying).


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

ute4kp I am loving your replies. My son said I should reply to their little hissey fits in the fashion of Vicki Pollard or quote Agnes Brown and smile and say "That's nice".


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree, Ute. And I can't help wondering how the heck Son is "trying to force his values" on anyone...by wanting to bring his boyfriend/husband over to meet his parents? By not keeping silent when the poster and her husband lecture and/or try to pray the gay away? I think it's very strange that Son is expected to respect their values, but they obviously have no respect for his.


It is so sad when parents reject their adult children in this fashion. They loved the son when he was a baby and a child, well he is still the same son, he is still their child. Had he been a serial rapist or mass murderer who was trying to recruit them to commit similar crimes then they may have cause to limit contact with him, I said limit contact, I did not say to cut him out of their lives completely. I feel their son's pain at the rejection but I do not understand the parents. Loving and caring parents one day then finding out that he is gay and shutting him out of their lives unless he follows their strict rules.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> Oh that's just not natural. ...as in very odd and annoying and creepy.


It was just one of his control methods, it made sure I did not say much and I never dared to contradict him. One of his favourites was "your mother said you said blah blah blah", or "your mother rang my mother and said you said". I would smile to myself because I knew my mother would never do such a thing. Mum never discussed family members with non family members. Mum said his mother was definitely not a member of her family. She did not like either of them. She certainly would not ring his mother and most definitely would not discuss me with her. She only met his mother once and said "be very careful of that woman and do not trust her", which was a very true statement.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

So funny! They're smart.
Kids explain same sex marriage.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> ute4kp I am loving your replies. My son said I should reply to their little hissey fits in the fashion of Vicki Pollard or quote Agnes Brown and smile and say "That's nice".


I don't know about Vicki Pollard. She wears pink and plays characters I think. What a hoot! And yes. How nice.
LoL.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> It is so sad when parents reject their adult children in this fashion. They loved the son when he was a baby and a child, well he is still the same son, he is still their child. Had he been a serial rapist or mass murderer who was trying to recruit them to commit similar crimes then they may have cause to limit contact with him, I said limit contact, I did not say to cut him out of their lives completely. I feel their son's pain at the rejection but I do not understand the parents. Loving and caring parents one day then finding out that he is gay and shutting him out of their lives unless he follows their strict rules.


Love under certain conditions. Love hostage style.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> So funny! They're smart.
> Kids explain same sex marriage.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> It was just one of his control methods, it made sure I did not say much and I never dared to contradict him. One of his favourites was "your mother said you said blah blah blah", or "your mother rang my mother and said you said". I would smile to myself because I knew my mother would never do such a thing. Mum never discussed family members with non family members. Mum said his mother was definitely not a member of her family. She did not like either of them. She certainly would not ring his mother and most definitely would not discuss me with her. She only met his mother once and said "be very careful of that woman and do not trust her", which was a very true statement.


You must have been laughing to yourself. Not that it was funny. You knew the real truth.

I know what you mean. I'd be accused of doing something just to "get" him. It could be some ordinary thing people do everyday. Such as I forgot to buy some food item . If he only knew what I was thinking. Then I was accused of being too independent! Well it's served me fine for 19 years since he died. Good thing that independence.  . Incidentally his mother was a wicked monster.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> I don't know about Vicki Pollard. She wears pink and plays characters I think. What a hoot! And yes. How nice.
> LoL.


Yes, she is one of the characters from Little Britain.

I had been thinking along the lines :

No, but, yeah, but, no, but, yeah, but, no, but, yeah but Oh my god that is so unfair! Everyone's always picking on me just cos their jealous! Not my fault I'm beautiful! 

My son loves Little Britain. He first saw the tv show when he was flat on his back in hospital after his MVA. He said he laughed so much. When they came to Perth we went to see their performance.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> You must have been laughing to yourself. Not that it was funny. You knew the real truth.
> 
> I know what you mean. I'd be accused of doing something just to "get" him. It could be some ordinary thing people do everyday. Such as I forgot to buy some food item . If he only knew what I was thinking. Then I was accused of being too independent! Well it's served me fine for 19 years since he died. Good thing that independence.  . Incidentally his mother was a wicked monster.


He was my second husband. My first husband had a mother and two step mothers and I still get along fine with all three women so it was not just an irrational dislike of my mother in law. My first husband has been married three times now, along with a couple of live in girl friends. His father married three times and also had at least one live in girl friend. Our son is now on his third marriage and also had a live in girl friend. It must be something there in the genes in that family. But I am still friends with my first husband and I am also friends with his present wife. I was friends with his second wife. No I was not friends with either of his two live in girl friends, they did not want to speak to me but he was always friendly with me when he was living with them.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

One husband was enough for me. Ha! I also was worried about any man that would want to be around another man's kids. I wouldn't risk that.

Will try for some Little Britain videos. Maybe on YouTube.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> One husband was enough for me. Ha! I also was worried about any man that would want to be around another man's kids. I wouldn't risk that.
> 
> Will try for some Little Britain videos. Maybe on YouTube.


Two has been more than enough for me. I have been single for over 25 years now and still love my freedom.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Two has been more than enough for me. I have been single for over 25 years now and still love my freedom.


We are women....we are free!


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> We are women....we are free!


 :thumbup:


----------



## MissMeeKaren (May 27, 2015)

Hildy60 said:


> ...judges who are attempting to re-write the US Constitution ....


Hildy, with all due respect, the judges are not rewriting the constitution. The job of the supreme court justices is to determine if laws are constitutional. That is, if the laws and decisions brought before them are consistent with, or in agreement with, the constitution. The constitution itself is not re-written. Only the laws that are determined to be in conflict with the constitution are re-written.



Hildy60 said:


> I must admit I am in a way thankful for this painful court decision ....


Please explain why this court decision is painful to you... How exactly does it affect your life?



Hildy60 said:


> ... school's are apparently forgetting to teach that this great country was created by Christians ...


Actually, it wasn't. And besides even if it was, what does it matter? The current population doesn't owe anything to any European here first. It would be more accurate to say that this great country was created by slave holders, but surely you don't think the current population should be slave holders or taught to be in school because the folks from way back when were?

So that begs the question, what specific thing is it that the schools aren't teaching that you think they should? Keep in mind separation of church and state as per the constitution, so anything religious is out of place in public education. First Amendment. (You do believe in the constitution, don't you?) I agree that certain values should be taught but those values aren't owned by any one religion.



Hildy60 said:


> ... religious persecution which now seems to be returning with a vengeance.


Huh? I have not seen or heard anyone being persecuted for their religion. Please provide some specific examples of current religious persecutions. The only ones I can think of are of people being excluded and shut out due to anti-love and anti-acceptance by those claiming to be religious. But do tell of current religious persecutions which have returned "with a vengeance."



Hildy60 said:


> ...we are in a marriage that is a partnership of equals ...


Which sounds very competitive to me, i.e., who is the more religious/ righteous.



Hildy60 said:


> .. one of the hardest is when our youngest son who is now in his 30's told me sometime ago he is homosexual.


This is the most difficult "issue" you've had to face in 38 years of marriage? If that's it, my dear you've had a cake walk! I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the issue is not actually your son's homosexuality but the homophobia of his parents and the deeper questions that requires them to ask of themselves but which they don't seem willing to. It's hard work.

So, what are you afraid of losing, if not your son? My god, you are willing to throw your son away, and why? Who is it you are trying to impress, or keep instead? My guess is your husband. You've chosen your husband over your child. No different than the woman who allows her children to be abused by the lowbrow deadbeat gang banger she's in love with.

That your son pays any attention to you at all is a tribute to his loving kindness. Where he learned that from is beyond me. Perhaps public school? Even ultra conservative Dr. Laura would tear up your parenting card for ditching your child in favor of an abusive spouse. I hope I am wrong but this is how your words came across to me.



Hildy60 said:


> ... my son who is well aware of my faith in God has made many disparaging remarks about my Christian values which he has been around all his life.


So, that means he must tiptoe on eggshells around you? You two are totally failing at honest communication because you don't want your feelings hurt? Wow. Your son is trying his best to have an honest relationship with you and you tell him it's got to be based on lies. Way to go, Mom! But you still have your husband, by god, so it's all good, right? I'm sorry, I'm getting angry as I type this. I sincerely mean this and am not trying to inflame. I do hope you are able to stand back and see what you're doing -- and WHY.



Hildy60 said:


> My son knows he is still welcome in our home but ....


Sure he is. As long as he pretends to be someone that he's not so that it satisfies the fantasy you and your husband prefer. That's got to be one heck of a family gathering y'all have. Everyone's tiptoeing around on eggshells making nonsense light chit chat, never scratching the surface of anything meaningful or serious lest it upset Mother or Father. That he pays you any attention at all is amazing.

How long until he quits talking to you at all so that he can move on with his life, in peace and happiness? You do realize that at some point he's going to get tired of banging his head against the wall and will walk away from you in hurt and frustration at just how Conditional your love for him really was, and throw you away just like you threw him away. Only he won't be self righteous about it.

I don't know of a better way to hurt a child than to discard him because he is not what you ordered when you placed your order for a child. Your husband must be sommmmmme catch. Ugh. No real man discards or allows his child to be discarded.

From what I can see, the sooner your son separates from the extreme dysfunction, the better off he will be.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Really! Maybe we should send Admin a list of people that we don't want posting in our threads.


Admin talking with her explains why she is off the grid at times. How hard is that head of hers?


----------



## Loistec (Jan 25, 2011)

.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> Squirrel clapping.


Hi Squirrel,

You clap and think well. Thanks for the support against those who support Israel for their own selfish next-life gains. The liberals should hire the gay community as they prove to be the best community organizers.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MissMeeKaren said:


> Sure he is. As long as he pretends to be someone that he's not so that it satisfies the fantasy you and your husband prefer. That's got to be one heck of a family gathering y'all have. Everyone's tiptoeing around on eggshells making nonsense light chit chat, never scratching the surface of anything meaningful or serious lest it upset Mother or Father. That he pays you any attention at all is amazing.
> 
> How long until he quits talking to you at all so that he can move on with his life, in peace and happiness? You do realize that at some point he's going to get tired of banging his head against the wall and will walk away from you in hurt and frustration at just how Conditional your love for him really was, and throw you away just like you threw him away. Only he won't be self righteous about it.
> 
> ...


==========================
I agree with everything you have said. As soon as I saw the BUT, I knew the son will never be really accepted. He is likely becoming more and more aware too. I agree, he will just give up and go his own way. I will never understand how parents raise their children to be independent but expect them to toe the line to meet the parent's requirements. Christians are supposed to love, not disparage and dislike their children's decisions. I wonder why he talks against your Church? could it be because he knows you will turn against him - which obviously it appears you are doing by putting BUT in your statements about him.

Sad indeed for all of you. Please consider carefully before you finally push him away. YOu are hurting him deeply. It is something that can't be taken back. He will always remember how you judged him.

4 years ago my son died of esophagael cancer. I am so thankful that he lived the way he wanted to even though at times we weren't too thrilled. He knew every minute of every day that we were there for him l00%. He told me before he died that he knew he had 'disappointed us' and thanked us for not making him pay for that by pushing him away' -I told him we had always understood but that the only person he had hurt in those years was himself.

When our children were born we said to each other that our main job was to raise a 'good, kind, caring adult. Who was able to make his own choices. That is exactly what he said he thanked us for. We were able to talk about anything. Please Please give it a try.

My second son and our daughter are close to us and they care about us. We don't interfere in their lives. It is a different time and a different place since we had them.

Think how you would feel if suddenly he was gone? So please take the BUT out of your conversation. jmo.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

SQM said:


> Hi Squirrel,
> 
> You clap and think well. Thanks for the support against those who support Israel for their own selfish next-life gains. The liberals should hire the gay community as they prove to be the best community organizers.


Oh yeay and with style!!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Loistec said:


> .


Who is upset and what religious laws does 'who' want to be the law of the land (as the meme you posted) suggests?


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

"Who" is on first.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

I thought there were 15 commandments. Oh wait, Moses dropped one tablet. Now I remember


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> I thought there were 15 commandments. Oh wait, Moses dropped one tablet. Now I remember


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> "Who" is on first.


I know, but I bet Loistec cannot explain the meme she posted. She probably just thought it sounded like it was running down someone she doesn't like. Mindless.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Two has been more than enough for me. I have been single for over 25 years now and still love my freedom.


EveMCooke
it comes through clearly that you are free and enjoy your freedom.


----------



## MissMeeKaren (May 27, 2015)

Designer1234 said:


> 4 years ago my son died of esophagael cancer. I am so thankful that he lived the way he wanted to even though at times we weren't too thrilled. He knew every minute of every day that we were there for him l00%.


Oh my! I am so sorry to hear this, so sorry for the loss of your son. 4 years probably seems like yesterday. Ugh. :-( :-( :-( :-(

With the pain is a lot of wisdom that you've shared with Hildy. I hope she takes it to heart.


----------



## Loistec (Jan 25, 2011)

.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> I find that joey should be giving her own answers. If you don't like us, you don't have to follow us. Plain and simple.
> Joey is an adult who can speak for herself and has no problems condemning people for not agreeing with her.


No one is stopping Joey from giving her own answers. I'm just pointing out a truth.

This is just another case of liberal double standard. You can all gang up and attack a non-lib/conservative poster and that is acceptable, but as soon as a non-lib defends another non-lib we're jumped on for doing so. What a hypocrite.


----------



## MissMeeKaren (May 27, 2015)

Designer1234 said:


> I will never understand how parents raise their children to be independent but expect them to toe the line to meet the parent's requirements. ....
> 
> He told me before he died that he knew he had 'disappointed us' and thanked us for not making him pay for that by pushing him away' ...


I don't get it either. This reminds me of something that occurred many years ago. The minute I graduated high school, I moved across the country. My youngest sibling was still in high school in the very small farming community we lived in in the Midwest. I came back to visit periodically, and it was on one such visit that I learned something about my Mom that I never knew.

My mom and I went grocery shopping in town. While at the store, someone yelled out, "Hi Mom!" and she smiled and waved in return. Then it happened again, just a few minutes later. "Hi Mom!" this one was followed by a hug. Feeling a little possessive of my mother, I asked her who these young men were calling her Mom. Calling My mom, Mom. "Oh," she said, "they're friends of [my brother]" Um, ok, Why are they calling you mom? My mom just dismissed it, with an 'oh, they're nice kids'.

It wasn't until later that I got the real story. While in high school they had come out to their parents as gay, and were immediately thrown out of the house. Thrown on the streets! Teenagers! What were these parents thinking?? My mom took them in. Mom did not believe in throwing away your children. Or anyone's children. And would not have them living on the streets. To become what? Bums? Thieves, prostitutes, drug addicts, or just plain dead? These kids were still in high school for crying out loud.

And so, when my brother told our mom about this, our Mom took them in and became Mom to a few additional kids (I am unsure how many, but at least 2 perhaps 3) until they finished school and moved on. Mind you, my mom was a single parent raising teenagers of her own and here she voluntarily took additional teenagers in. She never talked about it, I mean to say she wasn't one to brag by any means, she was always very modest and would just quietly go about doing what she thought was right.

How she never got in the face of the parents who threw their kids away just for being gay is beyond me.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Joey attacks regularly and definitely puts people down for believing differently.
> 
> Exactly what do you call it when she tells people they will go to hell for not believing in Jesus? That's an attack by anyone's standards and she's done it to me repeatedly. It's not a "loving warning" either, particularly when she is aware of other's beliefs or lack of religious belief.
> 
> ...


At this point the only thing I see is a group of women that only see things one way and are not willing to give another viewpoint the time of day. How very sad for you.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

GWPlver said:


> I have not seen any respect shown for our beliefs and opinions. They are as "right" to us as the beliefs held by those on the right. If you disagree with this topic and continue to post, then you either enjoy abuse or like to stir trouble. Either way, it is not conducive to constructive discussion.


In order to get respect, you have to give it. That is something I haven't seen by your group. clean up your own backyard then go out into the community.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Really! Maybe we should send Admin a list of people that we don't want posting in our threads.


Go right ahead. Such tough talk, so stop talking and do it, put your money where your mouth is.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Loistec said:


> .


Loistec
Thank you, the poster is great.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> At this point the only thing I see is a group of women that only see things one way and are not willing to give another viewpoint the time of day. How very sad for you.


soloweygirl
thank you for describing the religious zealots so accurately.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> In order to get respect, you have to give it. That is something I haven't seen by your group. clean up your own backyard then go out into the community.


I have.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> Remember to drink eight glasses of water a day.


That can be taken as a threat these days. It has been reported that drinking that much water in a day can be harmful to your health.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

MissMeeKaren said:


> I don't get it either. This reminds me of something that occurred many years ago. The minute I graduated high school, I moved across the country. My youngest sibling was still in high school in the very small farming community we lived in in the Midwest. I came back to visit periodically, and it was on one such visit that I learned something about my Mom that I never knew.
> 
> My mom and I went grocery shopping in town. While at the store, someone yelled out, "Hi Mom!" and she smiled and waved in return. Then it happened again, just a few minutes later. "Hi Mom!" this one was followed by a hug. Feeling a little possessive of my mother, I asked her who these young men were calling her Mom. Calling My mom, Mom. "Oh," she said, "they're friends of [my brother]" Um, ok, Why are they calling you mom? My mom just dismissed it, with an 'oh, they're nice kids'.
> 
> ...


MissMeeKaren
Your Mom is a Jewel.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> MissMeeKaren
> Your Mom is a Jewel.


Absolutely, Huck. It shows a strength of character and a basic, fundamental decency that religious zealots can only dream of.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> That can be taken as a threat these days. It has been reported that drinking that much water in a day can be harmful to your health.


It is not a threat, it is advice given by the Australian Department of Health. If you perceive it as a threat then you are really just looking for something to complain about and then tell Admin that I am being nasty. I am offering you words of advice that are offered everyday to Australians. But I will just quote Agnes Brown and say 'that's nice'.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Absolutely, Huck. It shows a strength of character and a basic, fundamental decency that religious zealots can only dream of.


That is what the zealots don't seem to understand - I think of the lives she might have saved by her actions and her love of others. She thought of them as teenagers, not gay teenagers. Good for her.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> At this point the only thing I see is a group of women that only see things one way and are not willing to give another viewpoint the time of day. How very sad for you.


that's nice :shock: :shock: :roll: :hunf:


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MissMeeKaren said:


> Oh my! I am so sorry to hear this, so sorry for the loss of your son. 4 years probably seems like yesterday. Ugh. :-( :-( :-( :-(
> 
> With the pain is a lot of wisdom that you've shared with Hildy. I hope she takes it to heart.


It breaks my heart when parents decide that they have the right for any reason to push their children away. I am sure, as he has tried to open doors and communicate, that he is hurt and bitter - I would think it is the hurt that their religious beliefs are what is cause his feelings of anger toward the Church. He has likely known for years that he is Gay. Can you imagine how hard it was to tell his parents, knowing that they likely would never be able to deal with it.

He is the same son you raised. Obviously you raised him with the ability to make choices. He did. Now he is losing you in many ways. That BUT is huge and it will drive him away. It breaks my heart for him. Once they are gone you don't get them back.


----------



## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

This thread has become 55 pages of some interesting comments, some sad stories and a bunch of name calling while I was in the hospital. My pain meds do not put me far enough into La La Land to deal with the shyt slinging. Out of here.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Sadly, our country no longer is governed by The USA Constitution, but our Congress and President have allowed appointed (not elected by the people) Supreme Court justices to legislate and write/changes laws.





DGreen said:


> The President and Congress have not allowed anything. They have no power over the Supreme Court except to propose justices and to confirm their appointments.


Good Lord, Green, get your head on straight and out of your sandbox.

The President appoints the Supreme Court Justices (and Federal Judges) and the nominations are to be confirmed by the Senate. The Justices can be removed by a Congressional Impeachment and Conviction!



DGreen said:


> If you will recall your civics classes, we have a system of checks and balances in the US, the *Administrative*, Legislative and Judicial.


If YOU would have continued YOUR civics classes and education beyond whatever you may have learned in elementary school, (which isn't much as evidenced by your post) you would KNOW what the system of "check and balances in the US" government means. You say those words and _don't have a clue what they mean_ which is, in your own words, 'simply uniformed and ignorant.' Hey, Green, hear this:  There is *no* Administrative Branch within the three branches of the US government!!!!!

I'll add you especially sound idiotic because I remember you regularly declaring how much work you do and how active you are in political work and initiatives. You have just shown repeatedly you know nothing of how the three branches of our government system works and you're an American!



DGreen said:


> These branches are equal with *none having power over either of the others,* so the claim that the president and congress have "allowed" the supreme court to do anything is simply uninformed and ignorant.


DGreen - see * - which outlines what the President and Congress "allowed" as they didn't (yet) "check" another branch

I'm going to explain this to you and KISS it so you or anyone else who read your *incorrect drivel* can understand how so *wrong* you are. *The Branches have power and ability over others* - that is what "Checks and Balances" means!

Legislative Branch (The Congress) Senate/House of Reps 
approves Presidential Nominations (Senate confirms)
controls the budget (begins in House)
can pass laws OVER the President's veto
* can impeach the President (starts with orders in the House) and remove him or her from office
House & Senate can veto each other's bills
* Congress can impeach judges/justices and remove them from office (if convicted)

Executive Branch (The President)
Commander In Chief of the USA (military)
#1 Priority/Responsibility - protect and defend the USA
executive of the office of President, cabinet departments, independent government agencies
* nominates judges
President can veto Congressional legislation

 Judicial Branch (The Courts; Supreme Court/Federal/Courts of Appeal/District Courts)
The Court can declare Presidential acts unconstitutional
The Court can declare laws (Legislative Branch) unconstitutional



DGreen said:


> The judicial branch was set up in the constitution to decide matters of constitutional law, which is what they did regarding same-sex marriage. They have not in this case, or in any case in history, written a law.


Your are WRONG. What you claim is NOT what the SCOTUS did regarding same-sex marriage. The SCOTUS took it upon itself to _write_ or more precisely, re-write, the laws of The Constitution, Bill of Rights and what was set up for our Country by the Founding Fathers. That is NOT the job or within the authority of the SCOTUS. The SCOTUS is to decide IF a law is unconstitutional or if a Presidential act is unconstitutional and interpret the law over the cases they accept. The SCOTUS legislated and redefined the word "marriage." The SCOTUS also added a new RIGHT and granted same to the LBGT community that is NOT within the existing laws or The Bill of Rights or in The Constitution of the USA.



DGreen said:


> Curiously, the fundamentalists were cheering the Supreme Court's wisdom in the case of Hobby Lobby, which was decided in their favor. Now they say the court is destroying the country. Interesting, indeed.


First, I am not a fundamentalist and do not speak for anyone but myself. This is your opinion re-quoted above. If you meant to imply, I'm a Christian Fundamentalist you are wrong once again.

However, I did write the opening statement you re-quoted in which I said I believe the USA is no longer governed as determined in The Constitution and the SCOTUS and President have _legislated_ which is not their prerogative to do so.


----------



## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

MissMeeKaren said:


> I don't get it either. This reminds me of something that occurred many years ago. The minute I graduated high school, I moved across the country. My youngest sibling was still in high school in the very small farming community we lived in in the Midwest. I came back to visit periodically, and it was on one such visit that I learned something about my Mom that I never knew.
> 
> My mom and I went grocery shopping in town. While at the store, someone yelled out, "Hi Mom!" and she smiled and waved in return. Then it happened again, just a few minutes later. "Hi Mom!" this one was followed by a hug. Feeling a little possessive of my mother, I asked her who these young men were calling her Mom. Calling My mom, Mom. "Oh," she said, "they're friends of [my brother]" Um, ok, Why are they calling you mom? My mom just dismissed it, with an 'oh, they're nice kids'.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing that story with us. Your mother is an exceptional woman. She made a huge difference in the lives of each of these teens. What an inspiration.


----------



## SanDK7206 (Jun 3, 2015)

BrattyPatty said:


> The far right republicans will scream that for a while, just like they did for the ACA. Let them scream until their throats disintergrate. I don't think it will happen.


There is NO APPEAL from a SCOTUS ruling. They can reverse themselves somewhere down the line, or Congress can pass a new law that doesn't get vetoed, after which it might be appealed all the way back up again and they would have to rule on that, but THIS ruling cannot be appealed or reversed except as above. As BP says, they can scream all they want, but it is now the law. Yayyy!!


----------



## SanDK7206 (Jun 3, 2015)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> You are on a roll tonight. Hitting all the nails right on the head. :thumbup:


How true! Every time I actually laugh out loud reading the comments, it is one of Brat's! [PLEASE keep it up!]


----------



## SanDK7206 (Jun 3, 2015)

Dangrktty said:


> Are you white ? Unambiguously white?
> 
> I am not, and I don't have to blend. However, I do enjoy being around others who look like me and appreciate me for the person I am, rather than my appearance. After awhile, a very short while, it is tiresome to get stares and rude comments under the breath from unthinking people..." What is she, anyway"?


Dangrktty, you are just ahead of your time: Someday, everyone in the world will be a beautiful shade of brown, and each person will be judged on his/her own merits rather than any other factor. Ignore the dinosaurs; they will soon be gone! We love your intelligence and your humor, and look forward to reading your posts.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

mojave said:


> This thread has become 55 pages of some interesting comments, some sad stories and a bunch of name calling while I was in the hospital. My pain meds do not put me far enough into La La Land to deal with the shyt slinging. Out of here.


how are you feeling? I hope your surgery went well and that you will soon be back to normal. Yes, it is frustrating.

I am glad to see you back. Take care, You are in my thoughts and my Prayers.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SanDK said:


> Dangrktty, you are just ahead of your time: Someday, everyone in the world will be a beautiful shade of brown, and each person will be judged on his/her own merits rather than any other factor. Ignore the dinosaurs; they will soon be gone! We love your intelligence and your humor, and look forward to reading your posts.


I agree completely, they love to disturb, as you know.


----------



## SanDK7206 (Jun 3, 2015)

EveMCooke said:


> In so many ways she reminds me of my ex. He always said I was a little dimwitted as I often took ages to answer a question. No, I was trying to choose my words very carefully because I knew that whatever I said would be twisted and thrown back at me 20 years later. He would say, "you said" and when I asked him when I said that he would give the the date I uttered those words and to whom I said them. The only thing was he often twisted my words to give them an entirely different meaning to what I had actually said.


Evie, did you by any chance marry my ex? 
:-( Hope not, you're much too nice for him (I was, too)!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SanDK said:


> There is NO APPEAL from a SCOTUS ruling. They can reverse themselves somewhere down the line, or Congress can pass a new law that doesn't get vetoed, after which it might be appealed all the way back up again and they would have to rule on that, but THIS ruling cannot be appealed or reversed except as above. As BP says, they can scream all they want, but it is now the law. Yayyy!!


Or a justice(s) can be removed by Congressional Impeachment and a conviction and a case or similar be heard again and ruled upon by a new SCOTUS.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Or a justice(s) can be removed by Congressional Impeachment and a conviction and a case or similar be heard again and ruled upon by a new SCOTUS.


oso utway


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> No one is stopping Joey from giving her own answers. I'm just pointing out a truth.
> 
> This is just another case of liberal double standard. You can all gang up and attack a non-lib/conservative poster and that is acceptable, but as soon as a non-lib defends another non-lib we're jumped on for doing so. What a hypocrite.


The same core Libs posting on this thread are all hypocrites, and they prove it again and again.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> All the Libs posting on this thread are hypocrites, and they prove it again and again.


takes one to know one.

oso utway -


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Absolutely, Huck. It shows a strength of character and a basic, fundamental decency that religious zealots can only dream of.


I have to believe there are way more of us who CARE than those who come on here and show their absolute lack of 
kindness or caring for anyone but themselves and their own beliefs. They are so arrogant and pushy.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> First, I am not a fundamentalist and do not speak for anyone but myself. This is your opinion re-quoted above. If you meant to imply, I'm a Christian Fundamentalist you are wrong once again.
> 
> However, I did write the opening statement you re-quoted in which I said I believe the USA is no longer governed as determined in The Constitution and the SCOTUS and President have _legislated_ which is not their prerogative to do so.


I was under the impression that the majority of Judges were considered to be very far right? I have heard on many occasions that the majority are known to be Right wing. One of them must have 
decided that It was morally wrong to allow part of the population to be treated as second class citizens and not allow them to marry. Good for him!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SanDK said:


> Evie, did you by any chance marry my ex?
> :-( Hope not, you're much too nice for him (I was, too)!


I wish I could somehow find a way to introdce those who might interested in a person like my husband -- I am sooooo fortunate.

They are still out there. I am so pleased that others who love each other like we do, and want to commit to a life together are now able to. It is a good thing.


----------



## SanDK7206 (Jun 3, 2015)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Or a justice(s) can be removed by Congressional Impeachment and a conviction and a case or similar be heard again and ruled upon by a new SCOTUS.


There has never been a successful impeachment of a Supreme Court justice. And I believe I said the Court could remand its own ruling in a later case.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> All the Libs posting on this thread are hypocrites, and they prove it again and again.


No, it's the so-called Christian trolls who like to disrupt this thread that are hypocrites.
Poor, poor, Cheryl must be so bored at home to come in here and behave this way. Her sidekick, solow, is a master of the game.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> Religious discrimination is a fallacy. It is promulgated by people intolerant of others beliefs.


I agree


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SanDK said:


> There has never been a successful impeachment of a Supreme Court justice. And I believe I said the Court could remand its own ruling in a later case.


Did I say any differently? I simply added another scenario of what could take place that you didn't mention. You said the recent decision could only be reversed in the particular ways you posted. You didn't mention another way it could happen, so I did.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SanDK said:


> There has never been a successful impeachment of a Supreme Court justice. And I believe I said the Court could remand its own ruling in a later case.


Oh, but SandK, it knows everything!! It is the only one on earth with the facts! it can't be taught anything. Did anyone here ask for a juke joint civics lesson? Cause that's all it can give. It must suck to be it. The only attention it can receive is negative.
As for reporting DGreen, once a rat always a rat. We don't like rats here.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Go right ahead. Such tough talk, so stop talking and do it, put your money where your mouth is.


Tough talk?? You must be one hell of a wuss! I won't act on my word because it would put me in the same category as your buddy. I hate tattletale stinking rats.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> All the Libs posting on this thread are hypocrites, and they prove it again and again.


In your dreams, Cherf.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Que Pea Jee said:


> Just so you know, when christians are criticized here, it's just christians not _*C*_hristians,
> 
> 80% of Liberals are Christians/christians themselves. You have nothing to teach us. Of course Liberals, they're walking the walk a lot better as Democratic principles focus so much on civil and human rights and conservatives do everything they can against them.
> 
> I don't think Christ would've liked the concept of trickle down.


Fantastic and so true!!!


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

As usual, I've been skulking around this thread without posting anything. I thought I'd seen everything, but I was wrong again. It sounds a bit soft, but the unkindness from the God-fearing is just awful. We're talking about real people who have no choice about their sexuality. I'm so tired of it being called a "lifestyle choice", as if "those people" are just deciding to join a casino or something. If it's a lifestyle choice, why the hell would anyone choose something that generates such hatred? Oh yes, I know: it's simply to piss off their parents. 

I know I'm stating what's obvious to most of you, but what is the harm in treating people like, well, people? That's it. It's 2015, and the Mayflower landed quite a while ago.

The knitpresents one once jumped all over me for daring to suggest that the first English migrants to someone else's country was to have religious freedom - to persecute those not of their persuasion, that is. I provided all kinds of references in support of my iconoclasm, but her response included the classic, "Shame on you". Well, no. You can't hang people who go against your God's "law" any more, much as you'd like to.

I do apologise if this is somewhat simplistic, but it is a simple thing. I do not apologise for having no belief in a supreme being/God or any religion, but I don't despise those who do. I utterly despise (and fear) those religious ones who insist that they have the monopoly on decency, morals, goodness and the only way to live. My mother professed to be Christian, but she was a mean, bitter and ungenerous racist. However, even she accepted her gay granddaughter without question.

I saw another charge on here, that every liberal is a hypocrite. How? That hasn't been answered to anyone's satisfaction. I hope I'm not a hypocrite, and I'm convinced that the people I've come to know through their words on here are not hypocrites either. I might not agree with everything they say, but I don't doubt their sincerity.

I don't do upper case or exclamation marks everywhere, and the language I'm using here might seem a little naive, but it's too important to wrap up in fancy language. No person should be treated differently for something they cannot help, be it gender, colour, age, looks, sexuality... That is surely the mark of true humanity.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> As usual, I've been skulking around this thread without posting anything. I thought I'd seen everything, but I was wrong again. It sounds a bit soft, but the unkindness from the God-fearing is just awful. We're talking about real people who have no choice about their sexuality. I'm so tired of it being called a "lifestyle choice", as if "those people" are just deciding to join a casino or something. If it's a lifestyle choice, why the hell would anyone choose something that generates such hatred? Oh yes, I know: it's simply to piss off their parents.
> 
> I know I'm stating what's obvious to most of you, but what is the harm in treating people like, well, people? That's it. It's 2015, and the Mayflower landed quite a while ago.
> 
> ...


It just blathers and blurbs and runs off, aw. You will never get any decent explanation come out of that thing.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

GWPlver said:


> I thought there were 15 commandments. Oh wait, Moses dropped one tablet. Now I remember


The commandment that's packaged up in a puzzle box of 1,000 pieces.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I know, but I bet Loistec cannot explain the meme she posted. She probably just thought it sounded like it was running down someone she doesn't like. Mindless.


http://www.quotev.com/quiz/754334/Which-Mindless-Behavior-boy-is-for-you/

Mindless quiz.
You'll love this.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Loistec said:


> .


But so sad. :thumbup:


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> No one is stopping Joey from giving her own answers. I'm just pointing out a truth.
> 
> This is just another case of liberal double standard. You can all gang up and attack a non-lib/conservative poster and that is acceptable, but as soon as a non-lib defends another non-lib we're jumped on for doing so. What a hypocrite.


I'm registered as Independent. *than you*. I can think for myself.

Hate your next door neighbor but don't forget to say grace.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> But so sad. :thumbup:


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Designer1234... sorry I missed some posts when my browser kept crashing.
I'm so sorry for the loss of your son. I'm sure it seems like yesterday. How awesome you both loved each other to get passed your differences.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Your mom is a Gem....a one in a million. She probably could have sued the jerk parents for support. You know she'd never do that as kind as she was.



MissMeeKaren said:


> I don't get it either. This reminds me of something that occurred many years ago. The minute I graduated high school, I moved across the country. My youngest sibling was still in high school in the very small farming community we lived in in the Midwest. I came back to visit periodically, and it was on one such visit that I learned something about my Mom that I never knew.
> 
> My mom and I went grocery shopping in town. While at the store, someone yelled out, "Hi Mom!" and she smiled and waved in return. Then it happened again, just a few minutes later. "Hi Mom!" this one was followed by a hug. Feeling a little possessive of my mother, I asked her who these young men were calling her Mom. Calling My mom, Mom. "Oh," she said, "they're friends of [my brother]" Um, ok, Why are they calling you mom? My mom just dismissed it, with an 'oh, they're nice kids'.
> 
> ...


----------



## Loistec (Jan 25, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> As usual, I've been skulking around this thread without posting anything. I thought I'd seen everything, but I was wrong again. It sounds a bit soft, but the unkindness from the God-fearing is just awful. We're talking about real people who have no choice about their sexuality. I'm so tired of it being called a "lifestyle choice", as if "those people" are just deciding to join a casino or something. If it's a lifestyle choice, why the hell would anyone choose something that generates such hatred? Oh yes, I know: it's simply to piss off their parents.
> 
> I know I'm stating what's obvious to most of you, but what is the harm in treating people like, well, people? That's it. It's 2015, and the Mayflower landed quite a while ago.
> 
> ...


Very well said, Anne. Thank you! Lois


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> At this point the only thing I see is a group of women that only see things one way and are not willing to give another viewpoint the time of day. How very sad for you.


Same to you, girlfriend.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> Go right ahead. Such tough talk, so stop talking and do it, put your money where your mouth is.


Pass the collection plate. Solo wants money.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> That can be taken as a threat these days. It has been reported that drinking that much water in a day can be harmful to your health.


What?
Crikey, you don't chug it down all at once !


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> It is not a threat, it is advice given by the Australian Department of Health. If you perceive it as a threat then you are really just looking for something to complain about and then tell Admin that I am being nasty. I am offering you words of advice that are offered everyday to Australians. But I will just quote Agnes Brown and say 'that's nice'.


Bless her little heart.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SanDK said:


> Evie, did you by any chance marry my ex?
> :-( Hope not, you're much too nice for him (I was, too)!


But they had a silver tongue and were utterly charming before we married them. I bet yours was like mine, so utterly charming to anyone he wanted to impress but utterly ruthless when they could not get their own way. Mine did have a pretty rough childhood. His father left for the war just after he was born, he was in the Royal Air Force and in radar. He was taken prisoner at the fall of Singapore and his mother, with two children, did not know whether he was alive or dead. He escaped from the Japanese and tried to escape by sea to Australia. He spent 81 days at sea in an open boat with three other escapees. Two died at sea and the third died shortly after they were recaptured. His mother worked as a skivvy, a low-ranking female domestic servant, a person doing work that is poorly paid and considered menial, working in the houses of the posh people in and around Leeds where they lived. Remember Leeds was bombed very heavily in the Battle of Britain. He had very strong memories of having to stay outside in the snow and the cold whilst his mother did her menial tasks. The people she worked for would not allow her to bring her child inside into the warmth. This must have severely affected him mentally. When the war finished in August 1945 his father was discovered barely alive in one of the POW camps. He asked to be repatriated and discharged in Australia rather than back in the UK, he knew and understood the damage that the war and the bombing had caused in England. He had migrated to Australia in 1920 but he was out of work in the 1930s due to the depression. He decided to take his wife and their child; my ex's eldest brother, back home to England and see if he could get work with his family, the Tetleys, brewers and tea makers in Leeds and Batley. They were on their way home to England when war broke out in 1939. He joined the RAF but his wife and child could not leave due to the dangers of U Boats. It was not until January 1946 that the mother and the two boys could get on a boat and return to Australia and join the father. Unfortunately, my ex's father was killed in 1954, just before my ex's 14th birthday. He was electrocuted. He was an electrician and on his way home the chicken farm down the road from where he lived stopped him and asked him to fix their electrical problem, they had no power. I do not know whether he was tired or simply forgot, but he forgot to switch off the power at the pole before he started to correct the fault. He was killed a couple of hundred metres from his home. I have a copy of the coroner's finding at the inquest into his death. The death was stated as being caused by negligence, his not switching off three switches at the power pole before he handled the live wires. So once again he was without a father. His mother had a mental breakdown after the father's death so he stepped into the breach and looked after her and his two brothers. But it did leave him extremely bitter and prone to violent temper outbursts. It also made him very clever, cunning and deceitful. He knew how to charm people and get his own way. He spent three years working in New Guinea in the early 1960s, he said it was to get away from his mother. He married his first wife there. His mother remarried whilst he was there. Her second husband was a beautiful man, a thorough gentleman but unfortunately he died five years after they were married. I knew Wal for such a short period of time but I will never hear a cross or nasty word said about him.

My ex and I did have so many things in common and I was on the rebound from separating from my first husband. You could say I was truly swept off my feet. Because of his unhappy childhood I did make a lot of allowances for him, but he became more and more demanding and authoritative until I finally saw the light and left. Mind you it did take me 20 years to make the break. To be honest I should have made the break only months after I moved in with him. I should not have made excuses for his behaviour. I alway say his first wife had the brains, she only lived with him for 12 months after they were married.

Please excuse my rant if I am boring you but I thought I should explain a little bit of my ex's history. Mind you I have left a lot out. I suffered a lot of pain and unhappiness during those 20 years we lived together. But it is all over now. He died just over 2 years ago but I do not want to go into what happened after his death. Some here already know about what happened then.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

*that's nice*
Would you care to expand on this?



knitpresentgifts said:


> First, I am not a fundamentalist and do not speak for anyone but myself. This is your opinion re-quoted above. If you meant to imply, I'm a Christian Fundamentalist you are wrong once again.
> 
> However, I did write the opening statement you re-quoted in which I said I believe the USA is no longer governed as determined in The Constitution and the SCOTUS and President have _legislated_ which is not their prerogative to do so.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I have to believe there are way more of us who CARE than those who come on here and show their absolute lack of
> kindness or caring for anyone but themselves and their own beliefs. They are so arrogant and pushy.


And *icky* too.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I wish I could somehow find a way to introdce those who might interested in a person like my husband -- I am sooooo fortunate.
> 
> They are still out there. I am so pleased that others who love each other like we do, and want to commit to a life together are now able to. It is a good thing.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :lol: :lol: :lol: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Oh, but SandK, it knows everything!! It is the only one on earth with the facts! it can't be taught anything. Did anyone here ask for a juke joint civics lesson? Cause that's all it can give. It must suck to be it. The only attention it can receive is negative.
> As for reporting DGreen, once a rat always a rat. We don't like rats here.


How did you manage to take a pic of the Rat? Ha.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Que Pea Jee said:


> Just so you know, when christians are criticized here, it's just christians not _*C*_hristians,
> 
> 80% of Liberals are Christians/christians themselves. You have nothing to teach us. Of course Liberals, they're walking the walk a lot better as Democratic principles focus so much on civil and human rights and conservatives do everything they can against them.
> 
> I don't think Christ would've liked the concept of trickle down.


What a friend we have in Jesus


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Perfectly said. Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. We all want the same thing.



aw9358 said:


> As usual, I've been skulking around this thread without posting anything. I thought I'd seen everything, but I was wrong again. It sounds a bit soft, but the unkindness from the God-fearing is just awful. We're talking about real people who have no choice about their sexuality. I'm so tired of it being called a "lifestyle choice", as if "those people" are just deciding to join a casino or something. If it's a lifestyle choice, why the hell would anyone choose something that generates such hatred? Oh yes, I know: it's simply to piss off their parents.
> 
> I know I'm stating what's obvious to most of you, but what is the harm in treating people like, well, people? That's it. It's 2015, and the Mayflower landed quite a while ago.
> 
> ...


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> *that's nice*
> Would you care to expand on this?


Let's hope not.

Extra fiber and lots of water.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> How did you manage to take a pic of the Rat? Ha.


With my super duper spy wear!


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

So this means we should hate LGBT people.
*how nice*



joeysomma said:


> Only five days after the Supreme Court decisions, they are trying for pologamy.
> 
> *That Didnt Take Long: Man Applies for Marriage License to Marry Second Wife*
> 
> ...


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> So this means we should hate LGBT people.
> *how nice*


Don't encourage it, Merry!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> Squirrel clapping.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MissMeeKaren said:


> I don't get it either. This reminds me of something that occurred many years ago. The minute I graduated high school, I moved across the country. My youngest sibling was still in high school in the very small farming community we lived in in the Midwest. I came back to visit periodically, and it was on one such visit that I learned something about my Mom that I never knew.
> 
> My mom and I went grocery shopping in town. While at the store, someone yelled out, "Hi Mom!" and she smiled and waved in return. Then it happened again, just a few minutes later. "Hi Mom!" this one was followed by a hug. Feeling a little possessive of my mother, I asked her who these young men were calling her Mom. Calling My mom, Mom. "Oh," she said, "they're friends of [my brother]" Um, ok, Why are they calling you mom? My mom just dismissed it, with an 'oh, they're nice kids'.
> 
> ...


Remarkable mom and it is so nice to meet you. I love your campy avatar.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> Go right ahead. Such tough talk, so stop talking and do it, put your money where your mouth is.


You are cute when you get angry.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Can I say--wow. Some things take me back. But I too survived. Thanks for sharing. It feels better to get things out.



EveMCooke said:


> But they had a silver tongue and were utterly charming before we married them. I bet yours was like mine, so utterly charming to anyone he wanted to impress but utterly ruthless when they could not get their own way. Mine did have a pretty rough childhood. His father left for the war just after he was born, he was in the Royal Air Force and in radar. He was taken prisoner at the fall of Singapore and his mother, with two children, did not know whether he was alive or dead. He escaped from the Japanese and tried to escape by sea to Australia. He spent 81 days at sea in an open boat with three other escapees. Two died at sea and the third died shortly after they were recaptured. His mother worked as a skivvy, a low-ranking female domestic servant, a person doing work that is poorly paid and considered menial, working in the houses of the posh people in and around Leeds where they lived. Remember Leeds was bombed very heavily in the Battle of Britain. He had very strong memories of having to stay outside in the snow and the cold whilst his mother did her menial tasks. The people she worked for would not allow her to bring her child inside into the warmth. This must have severely affected him mentally. When the war finished in August 1945 his father was discovered barely alive in one of the POW camps. He asked to be repatriated and discharged in Australia rather than back in the UK, he knew and understood the damage that the war and the bombing had caused in England. He had migrated to Australia in 1920 but he was out of work in the 1930s due to the depression. He decided to take his wife and their child; my ex's eldest brother, back home to England and see if he could get work with his family, the Tetleys, brewers and tea makers in Leeds and Batley. They were on their way home to England when war broke out in 1939. He joined the RAF but his wife and child could not leave due to the dangers of U Boats. It was not until January 1946 that the mother and the two boys could get on a boat and return to Australia and join the father. Unfortunately, my ex's father was killed in 1954, just before my ex's 14th birthday. He was electrocuted. He was an electrician and on his way home the chicken farm down the road from where he lived stopped him and asked him to fix their electrical problem, they had no power. I do not know whether he was tired or simply forgot, but he forgot to switch off the power at the pole before he started to correct the fault. He was killed a couple of hundred metres from his home. I have a copy of the coroner's finding at the inquest into his death. The death was stated as being caused by negligence, his not switching off three switches at the power pole before he handled the live wires. So once again he was without a father. His mother had a mental breakdown after the father's death so he stepped into the breach and looked after her and his two brothers. But it did leave him extremely bitter and prone to violent temper outbursts. It also made him very clever, cunning and deceitful. He knew how to charm people and get his own way. He spent three years working in New Guinea in the early 1960s, he said it was to get away from his mother. He married his first wife there. His mother remarried whilst he was there. Her second husband was a beautiful man, a thorough gentleman but unfortunately he died five years after they were married. I knew Wal for such a short period of time but I will never hear a cross or nasty word said about him.
> 
> My ex and I did have so many things in common and I was on the rebound from separating from my first husband. You could say I was truly swept off my feet. Because of his unhappy childhood I did make a lot of allowances for him, but he became more and more demanding and authoritative until I finally saw the light and left. Mind you it did take me 20 years to make the break. To be honest I should have made the break only months after I moved in with him. I should not have made excuses for his behaviour. I alway say his first wife had the brains, she only lived with him for 12 months after they were married.
> 
> Please excuse my rant if I am boring you but I thought I should explain a little bit of my ex's history. Mind you I have left a lot out. I suffered a lot of pain and unhappiness during those 20 years we lived together. But it is all over now. He died just over 2 years ago but I do not want to go into what happened after his death. Some here already know about what happened then.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Let's hope not.
> 
> Extra fiber and lots of water.


Certainly. That should do it.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> With my super duper spy wear!


I want one!!! Haha.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD:


Your avatar is soooo cute. Can't help but smile.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

SQM said:


> You are cute when you get angry.


And sexy.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> That can be taken as a threat these days. It has been reported that drinking that much water in a day can be harmful to your health.


Only by you. What a ridiculous statement to make.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Absolutely, Huck. It shows a strength of character and a basic, fundamental decency that religious zealots can only dream of.


And why her daughter has become a loving and nurturing soul.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SanDK said:


> There is NO APPEAL from a SCOTUS ruling. They can reverse themselves somewhere down the line, or Congress can pass a new law that doesn't get vetoed, after which it might be appealed all the way back up again and they would have to rule on that, but THIS ruling cannot be appealed or reversed except as above. As BP says, they can scream all they want, but it is now the law. Yayyy!!


That is a relief. Really.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> Your avatar is soooo cute. Can't help but smile.


Thanks ute!


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

a - hahaha x a billion.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> That is a relief. Really.


Yes it is, Wombat! I can't see wasting all of the time and money trying to repeal it like they did with the ACA


----------



## Medieval Reenactor (Sep 3, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> 1 Corinthians 6:9 (NKJV)
> 
> _Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor* homosexuals*, nor *********,_


Corinthians was supposedly penned by Paul. Do you take every word he wrote literally? If you are a woman, do you not cut your hair? Do you believe all women must be silent in church? " Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.(Timothy 2: 11-12) 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 states: "As in all the churches of the holy one, women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate even as the law says. If they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church." Do you keep your head covered as Paul instructs? 
1 Timothy 2: 9-15 (NASB) says:
"Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."

"Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord," and "the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church."[Eph. 5:2224]

Actually, many Biblical scholars question the authorship of many of the epistles, including the Corinthians you quote.

I feel that one must take every injunction in scriptures as literal or take the spirit of Christ's message. One cannot cherry pick the passages one wants to make a specific point.

Of course, if you do not ever cut your hair and always keep it covered, submit to your husband in all things, do not take any active participation in your church, do not think women should teach Sunday school - I bow to your piety but I still don't agree with you on the literal meaning of every phrase in the Bible.


----------



## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

knitpresentgifts wrote:
All the Libs posting on this thread are hypocrites, and they prove it again and again.

~~~~



Designer1234 said:


> takes one to know one.
> oso utway -


~~~~

Who are these Libs ?

Are they part of the looming conspiracy of Jade Helm, The Illuminati and the Big Gay Agenda ? The plot to get that animal on top of Donald Trump's head to turn around and grin ?

Do they wear uniforms, badges and name tags? Special armbands, secret decoder rings?

Along with the riding crop, ( cue the theme from 'Rawhide') I would like bull riding spurs on those stilleto thigh high boots. And a black bustier.

I did not get the memo and am awaiting a response.

My DH says he is also anxiously awaiting the delivery of these items.

~~~ka~ hwack, pit~ choo... Raw-hiiiiiiide!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Dangrktty said:


> knitpresentgifts wrote:
> All the Libs posting on this thread are hypocrites, and they prove it again and again.
> 
> ~~~~
> ...


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Only five days after the Supreme Court decisions, they are trying for pologamy.
> 
> *That Didnt Take Long: Man Applies for Marriage License to Marry Second Wife*
> 
> ...


Like it didn't exist before? Seriously, post something worthwhile for a change.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> Like it didn't exist before? Seriously, post something worthwhile for a change.


Pssst, don't encourage it!


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> So this means we should hate LGBT people.
> *how nice*


Not sure what it means and don't care because I am celebrating this brave new world! Hooray for the changes and for the young who will continue onward!


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> And sexy.


Not sure about sexy.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Dangrktty said:


> knitpresentgifts wrote:
> All the Libs posting on this thread are hypocrites, and they prove it again and again.
> 
> ~~~~
> ...


Love it! Frankly, we all have probably been hypocrites at some point. Part of that darn human condition.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Pssst, don't encourage it!


Oops!!! My bad! It doesn't post, just paste and copy drivel and false crap.


----------



## Medieval Reenactor (Sep 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Scarily, I heard noises about the SCOTUS decision being appealed and reversed. Say it isn't so?


It isn't so. Can't be appealed - it's the Supreme Court. Can only be changed by a constitutional amendment. I suppose someone could find some argument - can't think of anything right now and don't want to give anyone ammunition - and take it back up to the SC, but I seriously doubt it.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> At this point the only thing I see is a group of women that only see things one way and are not willing to give another viewpoint the time of day. How very sad for you.


Telling people they are going to hell is NOT expressing a point of view. It's rude and it's an attack.

Point of view might include something like, "It is my belief that people who don't believe in Jesus are doomed."

AND LET IT GO AT THAT. Note the statement is prefaced by the "I believe" part. Joey never bothers to qualify her condemnations. She states them as absolutes.


----------



## Medieval Reenactor (Sep 3, 2013)

Okay, back to the original spirit of this thread - celebration over the Supreme Court decision. Here are a few of my feelings:

Yippee! Freedom to move to any state in the US! 

Hurrah!!!!!! Same freedoms for all consenting adults in the US regardless of whom they love. Same obligations and rights and benefits.

Whoopie!!!!!!!! No fear that my DW cannot always make medical decisions for me with I am too ill to do so. 

Huzzah!!!!!!!!!!!! A massively happy day. 

Doing the happy dance.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Medieval Reenactor said:


> Okay, back to the original spirit of this thread - celebration over the Supreme Court decision. Here are a few of my feelings:
> 
> Yippee! Freedom to move to any state in the US!
> 
> ...


Excellent!! :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Go Abby. Go Abby. 
A fellow w.upstateNY. The US plays Japan on Sunday.

She's been married to her spouse for 2 years. And a woman.

Obviously it impacts my life personally, but everybody on our team was super happy and excited about it," Wambach told the AP. "

Yay Abby. Yay Abby.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Go Abby. Go Abby.
> A fellow w.upstateNY. The US plays Japan on Sunday.
> 
> She's been married to her spouse for 2 years. And a woman.
> ...


Gay marriage was legalized last year in Minnesota. My son, who is an ordained minister performed the wedding ceremony of his best friend and his partner. I was so proud of all of them. His best friend has been my "second son" for almost 30 years.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Go Abby. Go Abby.
> A fellow w.upstateNY. The US plays Japan on Sunday.
> 
> She's been married to her spouse for 2 years. And a woman.
> ...


What game is being played? Soccer? Tennis? Field Hockey?
Yay Abby!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> What game is being played? Soccer? Tennis? Field Hockey?
> Yay Abby!


The world women's soccer - it is being played in Canada this year. We have become soccer fans this past couple of years. Canada ended up 4th. I think the US might be the favorites for the world cup (championship) but anything can happens in these games. Japan won the championship last year so it could go both ways.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> The world women's soccer - it is being played in Canada this year. We have become soccer fans this past couple of years. Canada ended up 4th. I think the US might be the favorites for the world cup (championship) but anything can happens in these games. Japan won the championship last year so it could go both ways.


I might have to tune into that! Check your PM.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


Reminds me of the Calgary Stampede,


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I might have to tune into that! Check your PM.


kay


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Reminds me of the Calgary Stampede,


Now that one I have heard of!


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> What game is being played? Soccer? Tennis? Field Hockey?
> Yay Abby!


Soccer. Rest of the world I think it's football. But soccer to me.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Soccer. Rest of the world I think it's football. But soccer to me.


Is it on ESPN?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Don't be so quick with the Medical decisions. You need more than just a license. See your attorney for the proper paperwork. I believe it is called a Power of Attorney for Medical Care.


It can be known as different things in different states. i.e. Advance Directives, Medical Power of Attorney or a Health Care Proxy.

Good advice to meet with an Estate Planning Attorney.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Medieval Reenactor said:


> It isn't so. Can't be appealed - it's the Supreme Court. Can only be changed by a constitutional amendment. I suppose someone could find some argument - can't think of anything right now and don't want to give anyone ammunition - and take it back up to the SC, but I seriously doubt it.


Thank you for the reassurance. I literally felt a tingling sensation all over when I heard the rumblings! :shock:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Gay marriage was legalized last year in Minnesota. My son, who is an ordained minister performed the wedding ceremony of his best friend and his partner. I was so proud of all of them. His best friend has been my "second son" for almost 30 years.


That's heart warming Brat. You're a great lady.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> http://www.youtube.com/embed/c5kbSU4el5w?autoplay=1&FORM=VIRE5&PC=COND03
> 
> a - hahaha x a billion.


My younger brother introduced me to Agnes a couple of years ago, I love her. She has been to Perth and is coming back again next year. You cannot help but love Agnes. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Medieval Reenactor said:


> Corinthians was supposedly penned by Paul. Do you take every word he wrote literally? If you are a woman, do you not cut your hair? Do you believe all women must be silent in church? " Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.(Timothy 2: 11-12) 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 states: "As in all the churches of the holy one, women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate even as the law says. If they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church." Do you keep your head covered as Paul instructs?
> 1 Timothy 2: 9-15 (NASB) says:
> "Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."
> 
> ...


I have never been a fan of Paul, I believed he hijacked Christianity and altered the structure. I read an extremely interesting book over thirty years ago, it was on Saul's early life and then went on to outline the changes he made to the original teachings. It is at times like this that I miss my ex. If he were here I could ask him. One of my note books has gone missing; it is so annoying when books are misfiled or go walkabout.

The church up to the time of Paul was mainly centred in small groups in the home with the women playing a leading role. Paul wanted to change the structure to reflect the structure of Roman society with men at the helm. He also wanted to attract the intelligentsia and those with money and in order to do that he had to change the structure. He also wanted to attract followers from the African continent. He knew many were attracted to Judaism but did not like three aspects of Judaism:

the cult of the Priests whereby power was centred in the hands of the strong Priestly families
the strong dietary laws
the laws relating to circumcision.

If you examine the church structure and the laws he introduced you will see that his Christian Church did indeed alter these.

Paul also wanted to become a member of the Therapeutae but membership was denied to him. It has been said that the Therapeutae were strongly influenced by the Buddhist monks that Asoka sent into Egypt and the middle east. I can definitely see similarities between the strict code for the monks and the Therapeutae principles.

Paul's ideas were further enhanced by Augustine.

To my mind Paul seems to favour male domination over women; the role of women in the church is lessened after Paul.

I know that many here on KP will strongly disagree with my teachings, especially those who belong to strict fundamentalist sects and churches; those who study the words of the bible but do not understand the meanings of those words. They also do not recognise the fact that words have changed in their meanings over time and many passages in the bible may also have been incorrectly translated or transcribed.

I have no wish to antagonise anyone nor do I wish to disparage anyone's personally held beliefs, but I am allowed to put my thoughts to paper. I also know that several members here will now cast aspersions on both my character and knowledge relating to the Christian Church. That is their prerogative and I will not deny them their right to free expression. I await their strong and virulent condemnation as I know it will follow my posting as surely as night follows day.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Dangrktty said:


> knitpresentgifts wrote:
> All the Libs posting on this thread are hypocrites, and they prove it again and again.
> 
> ~~~~
> ...


Who are these Libs ? I believe that they are easily identifiable by the light of intelligence that shines in their eyes. Their willingness and ability to discuss rather than just rant and name call. Unfortunately, we can also recognise those of the opposite persuasion by their lack of these qualities.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> Soccer. Rest of the world I think it's football. But soccer to me.


In Australia we call it soccer to differentiate it from Australian Rules which was the major football code in Australia until the 1950s. Aussies generally call Aussie Rules 'footy'. The migrants to this country loved their soccer as did the English and when they settled in Australia after the second world war they established their soccer clubs. Some followers of Soccer, of Association Football would refer to Ausie Rules as 'aerial pingpong' because Aussie Rules involves high flying marks and handball techniques. I believe the English also differentiate soccer, or Association Football from Rugger or Rugby. I believe also that Rugby is older than Soccer. I think that the Americans refer to Gridiron as football and differentiate between Association Football, or soccer, and Gridiron or American Football.

But all that aside, I think the Matildas did very well in their World Cup appearance.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Is it on ESPN?


It's supposed to be on Tv on Fox channel ( not fox news)

There's also live streaming but watch out for sketchy ads.

http://www.pennlive.com/sports/index.ssf/2015/06/womens_world_cup_2015_final_un.html


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> It can be known as different things in different states. i.e. Advance Directives, Medical Power of Attorney or a Health Care Proxy.
> 
> Good advice to meet with an Estate Planning Attorney.


I had a DNR that my DH signed at the lawyers office. The hospital kept asking. I kept say he had one. It turns out they wanted a signature in THEIR form. I had to sign it then.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Thank you for the reassurance. I literally felt a tingling sensation all over when I heard the rumblings! :shock:


ooooooo. Tingley.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> My younger brother introduced me to Agnes a couple of years ago, I love her. She has been to Perth and is coming back again next year. You cannot help but love Agnes. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Awwww. :thumbup:


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> *that's nice*
> Would you care to expand on this?


I already have. Read my post to DGreen on pg 55 of this thread seen here: http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-345598-55.html#7559902. Green lambasted me in her usual style and attempted to give me a civics lesson about the three branches of the US Govt.

Her facts and accuracy were non existent! She doesn't know a thing about US Civics which was evident in her "lesson."

As part of me explaining how the branches of our government actually works, I also expanded on my statement you are asking about and about which Green didn't agree. (now I know Green didn't understand)

Responding to the majority of Libs on this thread is a waste of time and a futile effort. They know little about a lot.

Discussions are, therefore, impossible so it results in insults and name calling.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I already have. Read my post to DGreen on pg 55 of this thread. Green lambasted and attempted to give me a civics lesson about the three branches of the US Govt.
> 
> Her facts and accuracy were non existent. She doesn't know a thing about US Civics.
> 
> ...


And the ultra conservatives know a lot about little.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> I had a DNR that my DH signed at the lawyers office. The hospital kept asking. I kept say he had one. It turns out they wanted a signature in THEIR form. I had to sign it then.


A DNR isn't like the docs I mentioned. In order for someone to sign a DNR order he/she would most likely need to be have been first appointed within a Medical Power of Attorney, Advance Directive or a Health Care Proxy prior to signing the DNR. (that has been my experience in several instances/states)

I've only signed a DNR after first being appointed in one of the docs mentioned. The DNR is specific to and signed in the hospital at the time necessary; I agree with that part of your statement.

I advise no one to be without a proper and legal document, one of the three I've mentioned, (state specific) multiple times.

In my case, I would not have been able to sign a DNR without the prior proper legal doc, and the patient's wishes would not have been followed; the hospital would have been bound to attempt extraordinary measures to keep the patient alive.


----------



## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

I managed to get on the wrong thread---Sorry!


----------



## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I have never been a fan of Paul, I believed he hijacked Christianity and altered the structure. I read an extremely interesting book over thirty years ago, it was on Saul's early life and then went on to outline the changes he made to the original teachings. ~~~
> 
> The church up to the time of Paul was mainly centred in small groups in the home with the women playing a leading role. Paul wanted to change the structure to reflect the structure of Roman society with men at the helm. He also wanted to attract the intelligentsia and those with money and in order to do that he had to change the structure. He also wanted to attract followers from the African continent. He knew many were attracted to Judaism but did not like three aspects of Judaism:
> 
> ...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Excellent post. I have snipped a few bits for brevity, hope you don't mind. Your assessment runs parallel with most of my own research.

Paul/Saul of Tarsus/Apollonius of Tyana did indeed change many aspects of the future 'brand' of Christianity. Biblical scholars generally agree the Epistles attributed to Paul were written before the gospels, Mark, initially, then Matthew and Luke based on Mark, John...very, very gnostic in flavor.
In the first 300 years of the church, there were many, many different kinds of Christianity, with different beliefs, customs, local cultures, and their own personal scriptures.

Educated people at that time, spoke Greek.The average wealthy Roman, in the Roman Empire, including Jews, in The Levant, Asia Minor, North Africa, spoke the Greek language. 
It was almost de rigueur for the Roman households of that time to have one or more Greek slaves as tutors for the children. Roman culture was heavily influenced by Greek language, culture, worship, and architecture.

The New Testament was written in Greek, and this should come as no surprise. The Greek language was in general usage 
much like the English language is today. Money talks, and wealthy, educated people spoke Greek.

Without Paul, the murder of Hypatia, and the burning of the library in Alexandria, Christianity would be very, very different.

Are you familiar with Bart Ehrman, and Robert M. Price, D.M.Murdock ?

Excellent post. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.


----------



## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Have signed all the legal papers; My Lawyer, Doctor, and family have copies and have said that they'll honor them. Thank God we have a choice now. A friend's sil had a massive stroke. She laid there in a God-Awful Nursing Home for 8 yrs. She was comatose--Thank God!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Dangrktty said:


> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> Excellent post. I have snipped a few bits for brevity, hope you don't mind. Your assessment runs parallel with most of my own research.
> 
> ...


I always learn from our dear Eve. And from you.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Late again, but let me make it clear that the rest of the world doesn't think it's football, it knows it's football. That other stuff is American football or Aussie Rules. I almost went against my policy of never using upper case.

(wandering away, muttering "bloody soccer"....)


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I already have. Read my post to DGreen on pg 55 of this thread seen here: http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-345598-55.html#7559902. Green lambasted me in her usual style and attempted to give me a civics lesson about the three branches of the US Govt.
> 
> Her facts and accuracy were non existent! She doesn't know a thing about US Civics which was evident in her "lesson."
> 
> ...


Then you must have a lot of time to waste. You are in every Lib thread insulting us.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> Late again, but let me make it clear that the rest of the world doesn't think it's football, it knows it's football. That other stuff is American football or Aussie Rules. I almost went against my policy of never using upper case.
> 
> (wandering away, muttering "bloody soccer"....)


aw9358
football, the best game on Earth. A fair game, anyone of any size can play.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Then you must have a lot of time to waste. You are in every Lib thread insulting us.


BrattyPatty
while she is neglecting her neighborly duties to tend to her sorry looking yard.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> Late again, but let me make it clear that the rest of the world doesn't think it's football, it knows it's football. That other stuff is American football or Aussie Rules. I almost went against my policy of never using upper case.
> 
> (wandering away, muttering "bloody soccer"....)


You are correct, Ann.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Then you must have a lot of time to waste. You are in every Lib thread insulting us.


And you just proved my point. Well done.

You also reminded me I forgot to mention the regular lies told by those same Libs like you one you just expressed here.

Carry on ...


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Responding to the majority of Libs on this thread is a waste of time and a futile effort. They know little about a lot.
> Discussions are, therefore, impossible so it results in insults and name calling.





Huckleberry said:


> BrattyPatty
> while she is neglecting her neighborly duties to tend to her sorry looking yard.


I LOVE this! Please, Huck, post a picture of my neglected and "sorry looking" yard; I'd like to see it myself.

What an idiotic attempt to insult me. But thanks for the laughter and reaffirming my point. :thumbup:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> And you just proved my point. Well done.
> 
> You also reminded me I forgot to mention the regular lies told by those same Libs as you again proved.
> 
> Carry on ...


You make no sense. But then again it is Thursday...................(hic*)


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Dangrktty said:


> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> Excellent post. I have snipped a few bits for brevity, hope you don't mind. Your assessment runs parallel with most of my own research.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing yours!


----------



## krestiekrew (Aug 24, 2012)

Oh my..."SSDD"

Now we have legal advice, is anyone licensed to practice? 

Gotta go, later happy people...


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

krestiekrew said:


> Oh my..."SSDD"
> 
> Now we have legal advice, is anyone licensed to practice?
> 
> Gotta go, later happy people...


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Did you need to list a spouse or a family member in you papers, or could it have been an intimate friend?


MYOB. You are not a lawyer. Don't pretend to give good advice.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> I'm registered as Independent. *than you*. I can think for myself.
> 
> Hate your next door neighbor but don't forget to say grace.


???


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> How did you manage to take a pic of the Rat? Ha.


It's a selfie.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> It's a selfie.


ha ha ha
Actually, your son posed for it. Shouldn't you be waddling after that ice cream truck? Don't run too fast. You may get blisters on your thighs.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> And you just proved my point. Well done.
> 
> You also reminded me I forgot to mention the regular lies told by those same Libs like you one you just expressed here.
> 
> Carry on ...


In her particular case, the mouth moves so fast (in this case the fingers) the brain can never hope to catch up. Talk about a lost cause. :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> In her particular case, the mouth moves so fast (in this case the fingers) the brain can never hope to catch up. Talk about a lost cause. :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


Then why are you responding? Run, Chubs , run! That ice cream won't be around all day. :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I LOVE this! Please, Huck, post a picture of my neglected and "sorry looking" yard; I'd like to see it myself.
> 
> What an idiotic attempt to insult me. But thanks for the laughter and reaffirming my point. :thumbup:


Huckleberry and Bratty Patty suffer from the same condition. I do think they are in the same stage of the condition.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Huckleberry and Bratty Patty suffer from the same condition. I do think they are in the same stage of the condition.


You and KPG suffer from acid reflux flying out of your fingers and of course an extreme case of verbal flatulence.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> You and KPG suffer from acid reflux flying out of your fingers and of course an extreme case of verbal flatulence.


It's so sad to see you trying to be funny. You just don't have it in you. It's like watching a comedian on stage who gets no laughs. Very sad...... I am almost embarrassed for you.


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> If anyone is bullying it's joey and KPG shoving *unwanted* religious crap down our throats. They came to pee all over this thread because it is not what they want. I don't think that anyone on KP should have to put up with constant bible spewing from anyone especially if they know that the person they are antagonizing is an athiest , Christian, or Jew who do not agree with them. If the person/persons that they choose as victims don't want to hear it, they should stop. It's just another form of bullying.
> Let them run to admin like little school girls. It just proves that we have been right about them all along.
> It must suck to be them when the world around them is changing and they can't keep up.


This is one the most vulgar posts I have ever seen on KP. You want others to respect you and your opinions, yet you are unwilling to give the same courtesy and respect to those with whom you disagree. I wonder if you would make these types of comments if you were actually face-to-face with others, or if the anonymity of the Internet emboldens you to behave in such a crass manner. It doesn't matter which side of this issue anyone takes, everyone should be respectful.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> This is one the most vulgar posts I have ever seen on KP. You want others to respect you and your opinions, yet you are unwilling to give the same courtesy and respect to those with whom you disagree. I wonder if you would make these types of comments if you were actually face-to-face with others, or if the anonymity of the Internet emboldens you to behave in such a crass manner. It doesn't matter which side of this issue anyone takes, everyone should be respectful.


Personally, I really don't care what you think. I posted what I feel is true. If you don't like it, move on.

BTW there are more vulgar posts on this site than mine. If the word "pee"
is vulgar to you, just cover your eyes.


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> May I suggest you drop dead?


Really? Are you truly saying you would like this person to die? I am appalled by your comments. Absolutely appalled. Does no one monitor these threads any more?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> Really? Are you truly saying you would like this person to die? I am appalled by your comments. Absolutely appalled. Does no one monitor these threads any more?


Are you in the habit of running around the site chastising people for posts that have nothing to do with you? I would ask you to MYOB and move on.

It looks like you are the only one trying to monitor these threads.


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Personally, I really don't care what you think. I posted what I feel is true. If you don't like it, move on.
> 
> BTW there are more vulgar posts on this site than mine. If the word "pee"
> is vulgar to you, just cover your eyes.


I'm not all surprised that you don't care about what I think. However, I have just as much right to express my opinion as do you. And I have done it in a respectful way.


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Are you in the habit of running around the site chastising people for posts that have nothing to do with you? I would ask you to MYOB and move on.
> 
> It looks like you are the only one trying to monitor these threads.


I'm not chastising anyone, simply stating my opinion, to which I am entitled. I considered your post to be vulgar. My opinion. If you want to speak in that manner, I'm sure you will. Your right. This is an open forum, which means anyone who wants to read it and/or respond to it, can. MYOB does not apply. If you want to have a closed discussion, use the private message feature.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> It's so sad to see you trying to be funny. You just don't have it in you. It's like watching a comedian on stage who gets no laughs. Very sad...... I am almost embarrassed for you.


Which one of your personalities is scolding the other?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Which one of your personalities is scolding the other?


Good try solo, but again, far from funny. Keep working on it.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> I'm not chastising anyone, simply stating my opinion, to which I am entitled. I considered your post to be vulgar. My opinion. If you want to speak in that manner, I'm sure you will. Your right. This is an open forum, which means anyone who wants to read it and/or respond to it, can. MYOB does not apply. If you want to have a closed discussion, use the private message feature.


Okay here is my opinion to which I am entitled. I don't think you just happened upon my post. You are here to harass and scold. 
If you think I am vulgar, fine! Don't follow me in the future. I would be very grateful.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:
 

> I have never been a fan of Paul, I believed he hijacked Christianity and altered the structure. I read an extremely interesting book over thirty years ago, it was on Saul's early life and then went on to outline the changes he made to the original teachings. It is at times like this that I miss my ex. If he were here I could ask him. One of my note books has gone missing; it is so annoying when books are misfiled or go walkabout.
> 
> The church up to the time of Paul was mainly centred in small groups in the home with the women playing a leading role. Paul wanted to change the structure to reflect the structure of Roman society with men at the helm. He also wanted to attract the intelligentsia and those with money and in order to do that he had to change the structure. He also wanted to attract followers from the African continent. He knew many were attracted to Judaism but did not like three aspects of Judaism:
> 
> ...


===========

I bet they wish they had your knowledge, and smarts. I think you are one of the most intelligent and well read people I have ever met. Don't let those with close minds worry you a bit.

They would rather spend time baiting liberals than doing any real thinking. If they attack it is to be expected. For those who wonder what is happening here, Eve is an extremely honest person who is also extremely well read. I would recommend you read all her posts. I have learned so much from her. Designer


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> ===========
> 
> I bet they wish they had your knowledge, and smarts. I think you are one of the most intelligent and well read people I have ever met. Don't let those with close minds worry you a bit.
> 
> They would rather spend time baiting liberals than doing any real thinking. If they attack it is to be expected. For those who wonder what is happening here, Eve is an extremely honest person who is also extremely well read. I would recommend you read all her posts. I have learned so much from her. Designer


She also has a great sense of humor! :thumbup:


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I already have. Read my post to DGreen on pg 55 of this thread seen here: http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-345598-55.html#7559902. Green lambasted me in her usual style and attempted to give me a civics lesson about the three branches of the US Govt.
> 
> Her facts and accuracy were non existent! She doesn't know a thing about US Civics which was evident in her "lesson."
> 
> ...


osay utway!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> Really? Are you truly saying you would like this person to die? I am appalled by your comments. Absolutely appalled. Does no one monitor these threads any more?


Such a drama queen ! It is a figure of speech. Reading your past posts, I see why you are here. 
May the goddess shine her light upon you.


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Okay here is my opinion to which I am entitled. I don't think you just happened upon my post. You are here to harass and scold.
> If you think I am vulgar, fine! Don't follow me in the future. I would be very grateful.


FYI, I did "just happen" on your post. It's been a while since I've been on KP and I've been doing some catching up. I was interested in the topic, and over the past couple of days I have read all 60+ pages. I am not here to harass or scold. And I have no intention of, nor am I currently, "following" you. In fact, I will likely just skip right over your posts in the future b/c I'm not interested in your type of comments. I prefer to read things that are educational, useful or have a positive message.

I wish you all the best BrattyPatty. Happy 4th of July to you.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> FYI, I did "just happen" on your post. It's been a while since I've been on KP and I've been doing some catching up. I was interested in the topic, and over the past couple of days I have read all 60+ pages. I am not here to harass or scold. And I have no intention of, nor am I currently, "following" you. In fact, I will likely just skip right over your posts in the future b/c I'm not interested in your type of comments. I prefer to read things that are educational, useful or have a positive message.
> 
> I wish you all the best BrattyPatty. Happy 4th of July to you.


Uh huh. Have a nice day.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wibdgrfan said:


> This is one the most vulgar posts I have ever seen on KP. You want others to respect you and your opinions, yet you are unwilling to give the same courtesy and respect to those with whom you disagree. I wonder if you would make these types of comments if you were actually face-to-face with others, or if the anonymity of the Internet emboldens you to behave in such a crass manner. It doesn't matter which side of this issue anyone takes, everyone should be respectful.


I'd like to say thank you Wibdgrfan since I was one mentioned in the post you referenced. Personally, I have read much more vulgar posts from that poster but do agree with your overall assessment.

Thanks again, KPG.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wibdgrfan said:


> Really? Are you truly saying you would like this person to die? I am appalled by your comments. Absolutely appalled. Does no one monitor these threads any more?


And there is yet another example of Bratty Patty's vile posts.

Best to ignore such posters, that's what I usually do.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> Which one of your personalities is scolding the other?


Ha! I just noticed that too, Bratty Patty scolding Bratty Patty.

Her buddy Cheeky Blighter did it yesterday but at least used a second name (Poppy28). What a bunch of crazies! :-D

When in doubt, talk to all your other selves! It's all the rage right now in Liberal circles.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> And there is yet another example of Bratty Patty's vile posts.
> 
> Best to ignore such posters, that's what I usually do.


Hello Pot! I'll bring up some of your past rantings for comparison. Especially the drunken blather. Those under your old user name are pretty bad too.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wibdgrfan said:


> This is one the most vulgar posts I have ever seen on KP. You want others to respect you and your opinions, yet you are unwilling to give the same courtesy and respect to those with whom you disagree. I wonder if you would make these types of comments if you were actually face-to-face with others, or if the anonymity of the Internet emboldens you to behave in such a crass manner. It doesn't matter which side of this issue anyone takes, everyone should be respectful.


Evidently you did not read former posts by certain people that prompted this response. Far worse.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Ha! I just noticed that too, Bratty Patty scolding Bratty Patty.
> 
> Her buddy Cheeky Blighter did it yesterday but at least used a second name (Poppy28). What a bunch of crazies! :-D
> 
> When in doubt, talk to all your other selves! It's all the rage right now in Liberal circles.


Poor poor Cheryl. still can't get over the Romney loss. She carries so much hate in her heart for liberals, the same group that got her her right to vote, ended segregation, brought civil rights to this country (that one is a burr in her butt), the Clean Air Act, & Social Security, health care, and the equality of gays. ( another burr in her butt).
What did her party do? Voted against everyone of them.
That's nothing to be proud of, but for some reason she thinks it is. I would call that crazy, but then again, repugs are known to vote against their own best interests.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Poor poor Cheryl. still can't get over the Romney loss. She carries so much hate in her heart for liberals, the same group that got her her right to vote, ended segregation, brought civil rights to this country (that one is a burr in her butt), the Clean Air Act, & Social Security, health care, and the equality of gays. ( another burr in her butt).
> What did her party do? Voted against everyone of them.
> That's nothing to be proud of, but for some reason she thinks it is. I would call that crazy, but then again, repugs are known to vote against their own best interests.


Tell us what you really think of KGB.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> Tell us what you really think of KGB.


I would get suspended, so I'll just leave it at that. She knows what that feels like. I don't want the experience, personally.


----------



## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

People are open minded now. We had a Priest who (in Church) said, "Gays are sick and their families are sicker." Half of the Church got up and left. We wondered if he was a 'closet gay' and didn't know how to handle it.


----------



## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

KnitPresent: Chill out! You're taking this to a ridiculous degree. :thumbdown: :XD:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

mmorris said:


> KnitPresent: Chill out! You're taking this to a ridiculous degree. :thumbdown: :XD:


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

krestiekrew said:


> Oh my..."SSDD"
> 
> Now we have legal advice, is anyone licensed to practice?
> 
> Gotta go, later happy people...


The legal advice was excellent and free to anyone to explore.

KP is loaded with great advice of which I avail myself often; it is one of the things I like most about KP.


----------



## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

BrattyPatty wrote:
If anyone is bullying it's joey and KPG shoving unwanted religious crap down our throats. They came to pee all over this thread because it is not what they want. I don't think that anyone on KP should have to put up with constant bible spewing from anyone especially if they know that the person they are antagonizing is an athiest , Christian, or Jew who do not agree with them. If the person/persons that they choose as victims don't want to hear it, they should stop. It's just another form of bullying.
Let them run to admin like little school girls. It just proves that we have been right about them all along.
It must suck to be them when the world around them is changing and they can't keep up.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Wibdgrfan said:


> This is one the most vulgar posts I have ever seen on KP. You want others to respect you and your opinions, yet you are unwilling to give the same courtesy and respect to those with whom you disagree. I wonder if you would make these types of comments if you were actually face-to-face with others, or if the anonymity of the Internet emboldens you to behave in such a crass manner. It doesn't matter which side of this issue anyone takes, everyone should be respectful.


I have noticed this a lot here on KP lately...The "I know you are, what am I", and " No it isn't", schoolyard twaddle of you and your cohorts is tiresome.

The use of the word 'vulgar' by some arrogant, biggity-speckled...individual... who hides behind personal religious dogma of their particular sect, when someone else disagrees, and it does not matter what topic is currently being discussed is equally tiresome, and makes it difficult to have a cogent discourse.

Is the word 'vulgar' a new high brow vocabulary word for you,Wibdgrfan ?
The same thing just happened on another thread, and I really don't understand the context.

It comes to the English language from the Latin word for 'common'. Did you mean to call another person 'common'? Some of my people came from the South, and calling someone 'common' was a terrible insult, as I was taught.

Do they teach this sort of behavior in your church? Or do you just use that sort of reverse rhetoric to gain points with The Dark Lord?

You are giving Baby Jesus diaper rash, you know that, don't You?


----------



## krestiekrew (Aug 24, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> The legal advice was excellent and free to anyone to explore.
> 
> KP is loaded with great advice of which I avail myself often; it is one of the things I like most about KP.


....went so far over your head (shaking head as walks away....)


----------



## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

BrattyPatty: Yes! Yes! Yes! Favorite Maxim that fits this situation---' When They're bothering you, They're Leaving Someone Else Alone.' I think you're a great, honest person! :-D :thumbup:


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

Dangrktty said:


> BrattyPatty wrote:
> 
> I have noticed this a lot here on KP lately...The "I know you are, what am I", and " No it isn't", schoolyard twaddle of you and your cohorts is tiresome.
> 
> ...


1. I don't have cohorts on KP, or have I insulted anyone.
2. I am not hiding behind any personal religious dogma. Nor have I brought religion into this discussion. My churches teaches about salvation through faith in Christ. (You asked)
3. Since Jesus was a baby more than 2000 years ago, and grew up, diaper rash seems unlikely. And a comment like that just proves how disrespectful you are to Christians.
4. Perhaps you make yourself feel better by making derogatory remarks about others. And since your dictionary must be missing some definitions, I will help you. I used the word vulgar exactly as I meant to and it is the first, therefore most often used definition.

vul·gar
ˈvəlɡər/
adjective
adjective: vulgar
lacking sophistication or good taste; unrefined.
"the vulgar trappings of wealth"
synonyms:	tasteless, crass, tawdry, ostentatious, flamboyant, overdone, showy, gaudy, garish, brassy, kitsch, kitschy, tinselly, loud; More
informalflash, flashy, tacky
"the decor was lavish but vulgar"
impolite, ill-mannered, unmannerly, rude, indecorous, unseemly, ill-bred, boorish, uncouth, crude, rough;
unsophisticated, unrefined, common, low-minded;
unladylike, ungentlemanly
"it is vulgar to belch in public"
antonyms:	tasteful, restrained, genteel, decorous
making explicit and offensive reference to sex or bodily functions; coarse and rude.
"a vulgar joke"
synonyms:	rude, indecent, indelicate, offensive, distasteful, coarse, crude, ribald, risqué, naughty, suggestive, racy, earthy, off-color, bawdy, obscene, profane, lewd, salacious, smutty, dirty, filthy, pornographic, X-rated; More
informalsleazy, raunchy, blue, locker-room;
saucy, salty;
euphemisticadult
"a vulgar joke"
antonyms:	decent, inoffensive
dated
characteristic of or belonging to the masses.
Origin
late Middle English: from Latin vulgaris, from vulgus common people. The original sense was used in ordinary calculations (surviving in vulgar fraction) and in ordinary use, used by the people (surviving in vulgar Latin and vulgar tongue).


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> 1. I don't have cohorts on KP, or have I insulted anyone.
> 2. I am not hiding behind any personal religious dogma. Nor have I brought religion into this discussion. My churches teaches about salvation through faith in Christ. (You asked)
> 3. Since Jesus was a baby more than 2000 years ago, and grew up, diaper rash seems unlikely. And a comment like that just proves how disrespectful you are to Christians.
> 4. Perhaps you make yourself feel better by making derogatory remarks about others. And since your dictionary must be missing some definitions, I will help you. I used the word vulgar exactly as I meant to and it is the first, therefore most often used definition.
> ...


Well, thank you for that waste of good space! Another "teacher" is among us. Good grief!


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

If it was such a waste of space, why did you repost the whole thing, BrattyCatty? Not to mention the comment was not even directed to you, but rather to someone who did not know the modern day definition the the word vulgar. I'm sure you are much too smart to need help with definitions, since you have made it quite clear in your posts that you are someone who knows it all.

Did I read in one of your posts on this thread that you are a Catholic? Maybe it was former Catholic or non-practicing..... Whatever, as you would say.

I'm sorry that you are unable to interact politely with those who may not share your views. We all have bad days, so I'm willing to think maybe you're just having one of those. Hope tomorrow is better for you.


----------



## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

BrattyCathy: It's amazing how bigoted people can be.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> If it was such a waste of space, why did you repost the whole thing, BrattyCatty? Not to mention the comment was not even directed to you, but rather to someone who did not know the modern day definition the the word vulgar. I'm sure you are much too smart to need help with definitions, since you have made it quite clear in your posts that you are someone who knows it all.
> 
> Did I read in one of your posts on this thread that you are a Catholic? Maybe it was former Catholic or non-practicing..... Whatever, as you would say.
> 
> I'm sorry that you are unable to interact politely with those who may not share your views. We all have bad days, so I'm willing to think maybe you're just having one of those. Hope tomorrow is better for you.


Um , I didn't approach you. You came into this thread blasting me because you don't like what I have to say. You said you would not be back, but here you are. Nobody is twisting your arm to read or reply to my posts. My faith is what it is. 
I can only come to the conclusion that you are no more than a troll who is looking to stir up trouble. Now you have reduced yourself to name calling. Please, take your hormones, for it seems that you are having a far worse day than I am. Your user name suits you, Badger.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

mmorris said:


> BrattyCathy: It's amazing how bigoted people can be.


Or just plain nosy!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Um , I didn't approach you. You came into this thread blasting me because you don't like what I have to say. You said you would not be back, but here you are. Nobody is twisting your arm to read or reply to my posts. My faith is what it is. Period.
> I can only come to the conclusion that you are no more than a troll who is looking to stir up trouble. Now you have reduced yourself to name calling. Please, take your hormones, for it seems that you are having a far worse day than I am. Your name suits you. Badger.


good answer!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> If it was such a waste of space,* why did you repost the whole thing,* BrattyCatty? Not to mention the comment was not even directed to you, but rather to someone who did not know the modern day definition the the word vulgar. I'm sure you are much too smart to need help with definitions, since you have made it quite clear in your posts that you are someone who knows it all.
> 
> Did I read in one of your posts on this thread that you are a Catholic? Maybe it was former Catholic or non-practicing..... Whatever, as you would say.
> 
> I'm sorry that you are unable to interact politely with those who may not share your views. We all have bad days, so I'm willing to think maybe you're just having one of those. Hope tomorrow is better for you.


------------------------------------------------------------
Just in case you have never used quote reply - you click on it and it prints out the previous message.  Maybe you should check out how the threads work??? By the way, it is handy as then those who read the replies can read the statements being posted and answer same. Just a bit of information - maybe you should put in the time to learn how this forum works before you start being nasty.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

mmorris said:


> BrattyCathy: It's amazing how bigoted people can be.


Bratty Catty,mm. I don't think I'll be able to sleep tonight because of that.... :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Well, thank you for that waste of good space! Another "teacher" is among us. Good grief!


Oh dear - we have about 3 or 4 people who know everything and who can't wait to lecture, NOt another one! I guess well have to go back to * ignore, ignore!*


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Oh dear - we have about 4 or 5 people who know everything and who can't wait to lecture, NOt another one! I guess well have to go back to ignore, ignore!


 :thumbup: :thumbup:

I have to run now. Hubby has the car loaded up, traffic has passed and we are ready to take off for the weekend. Have a good weekend, Shirley and all!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Evidently you did not read former posts by certain people that prompted this response. Far worse.


--------------------------------------
agreed, Dgreen - I doubt she is interested especially with her 
friend telling her how right, and great she is.


----------



## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

I started this thread and I remain unhappy about the rude, crass remarks being made by liberals, conservatives, atheists, Christians and others. Ever heard of the concept "polite disagreement"?


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Wedding etiquette.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> Wedding etiquette.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Just in case you have never used quote reply - you click on it and it prints out the previous message.  Maybe you should check out how the threads work??? By the way, it is handy as then those who read the replies can read the statements being posted and answer same. Just a bit of information - maybe you should put in the time to learn how this forum works before you start being nasty.


Yes, I know how quote reply works, but since I was accused of "wasting space" I was trying to save space. There is just no pleasing people on this thread.


----------



## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

I'm straight but have many Gay friends. One couple are getting married in Oct. The Priest is doing the service and is as excited as the rest of us.! They said that 'only the people that supported us are being invited.' I'm so honored (and so are the others). Now--to find an outfit for a Church wedding. :thumbup: :-D


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

mmorris said:


> BrattyCathy: It's amazing how bigoted people can be.


I'm not sure to whom your remark is directed, but just because you don't agree with someone, it doesn't mean they are a bigot. Perhaps the bigot is you?


----------



## Caxton (Mar 26, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> We do have some self-identified GLBT knitters on this site, and some who do not self-identify because they always are amongst us, whoever we are and wherever we are. More power to them, and now, more joy to them. I wish we could all have a big celebration party together.


Here, Here x


----------



## Loistec (Jan 25, 2011)

-" The Supreme Court decision and legalizing gay marriage everywhere is a huge step for America. It shows there are enough independent thinkers out there. If we're truly going to evolve on these important social issues, we can't be a nation of drones programmed to believe everything in The Bible or take the word of anyone no matter who they are or what kind of power they hold. Just like the airplane has evolved from the time of The Wright Brothers, or mail has evolved into email, it's no different with gay rights. In time things are supposed to get better, not worse, and the only way that will happen is if enough free thinkers push back and question the old ways of doing things.

To all my LGBT friends and Americans, this is your time. Congratulations! 

The bullies and bigots will kick and scream like the small minded manipulators they are, but it hasn't been enough to prevent Americans from doing the right thing."

Steve Siebold, Huffington Post


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I also enjoyed the following video. :XD:


Sometimes you just have to laugh.


----------



## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Religious bigotry is still around. During the terrible time of 9/11, a well known minister in this area (NC) said that "God is paying back all those miserable sinners". He was fired that afternoon. :thumbdown:


----------



## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Sorry you feel that way, pal! I meant the posters that have nothing good to say about others--good or bad. Didn't mean to offend!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> ..


Bobby Jindal? Who gives a crap what Bobby Jindal says?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> ..


You might want to go back and re-read the Declaration of Independence. Today would be a good day to do that.

The reasons are enumerated in detail, and I have not been able to find restriction of religious liberty among them.

We have our liberty because our forefathers fought and died and bled and spent their fortunes to achieve it. They fought against an unjust government, not for religious liberty.

Didn't you have something to say about "rewriting history" the other day? It appears Jindal is trying to do exactly that, and his statement (if he, in fact, said it), defies logic AND history.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup:
> 
> I have to run now. Hubby has the car loaded up, traffic has passed and we are ready to take off for the weekend. Have a good weekend, Shirley and all!


Be safe!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> What Jindal said is exactly why and how our country was founded. You will know nothing about our real history until you read the Federalist Papers. They were letters written by the founding fathers, printed in the newspapers, of the day, to persuade the citizens to vote for the Constitution? How many have you read?


I see you are once again determined to "teach" the world something. Since you are so intimately familiar with them and appear to believe they constitute the REAL history of the US, please provide proof supporting your claim.

I'm certainly not going to research them to prove your point for you. You have made a claim; it is up to you to defend it. Try to be coherent.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> What Jindal said is exactly why and how our country was founded. You will know nothing about our real history until you read the Federalist Papers. They were letters written by the founding fathers, printed in the newspapers, of the day, to persuade the citizens to vote for the Constitution? How many have you read?
> 
> You are right there is no restriction of religious liberty in the Declaration of Independence. Only in the laws passed since then. Especially in the Supreme Court Ruling of last week.


Please provide a source for the text of the law passed by the supreme court last week. I am interested to see that law and also when it passed the House and Senate and was signed by the President.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I do not remember a specific law passed by the Congress. It seems they were all "made up" by Federal Courts or the Supreme Court. The removal of any Christian monuments from any public land, removal of Bibles and Prayer from schools, and government meetings, Court martial of Christians in the Military. Calling Amendments to state constitutions unconstitutional. Then the ruling by the Supreme Court last week.


You don't remember them because the Supreme Court does not write law. Never has, never will.

Obviously, you do not understand the basic concept of judicial review for constitutionality which is the job of the supreme court.

For example, the bible can't be taught in public, taxpayer-supported schools because that would violate separation of church and state. At some point, a citizen sued a school for teaching the bible as a TAXPAYER supported activity. Eventually, the case was reviewed by the Supreme Court and they found that the PRACTICE was unconstitutional and therefore had to stop. They didn't write a law to do this; it became illegal/unconstitutional immediately. In fact, in those places where people are now trying to get schools to teach from the bible and who are trying to pass laws to permit it, they will lose. End of story. They will lose because that issue has already been decided and their laws would be struck down as unconstitutional. This isn't a difficult concept, Joey.

This concept has been explained to you repeatedly, yet you can't seem to get your mind around it. Why is that?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Here is the link to the Federalist Papers, all 85 of them. They can be read on line for free.
> 
> http://thomas.loc.gov/home/histdox/fedpapers.html


I already told you I'm not going to research anything to "prove" your point. Where are the quotations and citations to prove what you claim? State your own case - I'm not going to do it for you and my guess is no one else on this thread will, either.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I have told you many times that there is no separation of Church and State in the Constitution. It was another made up law by the Liberal Supreme Court appointed by FDR.


You are incorrect. Again, you have called it a "law." Show me the law.

I'm not going to join your merry-go-round about that topic again. You have been proven wrong about that over and over and over and over and over and over.....and over.

Seems you have problems recognizing facts along with understanding concepts.


----------



## Medieval Reenactor (Sep 3, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Don't be so quick with the Medical decisions. You need more than just a license. See your attorney for the proper paperwork. I believe it is called a Power of Attorney for Medical Care.


Have that, too, but 2 years ago when I was so ill I was delirious, DW had no difficulty authorizing all needed medical tests, hosp admission, etc. She didn't need to show any paperwork.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Medieval Reenactor said:


> Have that, too, but 2 years ago when I was so ill I was delirious, DW had no difficulty authorizing all needed medical tests, hosp admission, etc. She didn't need to show any paperwork.


I'm so glad you recovered and your DW did not have to make decisions on removing life support or refusing to have a feeding tube inserted or anything like that - the sort of life and death decisions many hospitals would challenge or would override. Some will even ignore DNR's.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Supreme Court Rulings:
> 
> "Why may not the Bible, and especially the New Testament. without note or comment. be read and taught as divine revelation in (schools)- Its general principles of morality inoculated?... Where can the purest principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the New Testament?"
> *Vidal v. Girard's Executors, 1844* (Unanimous Decision Commending and Encouraging the Use of the Bible in Government - Run Schools).


Which proves nothing except that you support teaching Christianity to all school children - those who are from Christian homes, those who come from Jewish homes, those who come from Buddhist homes. All of them. This would amount to establishing a state religion. Which you support, even though the constitution specifically states the government can't do that.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Supreme Court Rulings:
> 
> "Why may not the Bible, and especially the New Testament. without note or comment. be read and taught as divine revelation in (schools)- Its general principles of morality inoculated?... Where can the purest principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the New Testament?"
> *Vidal v. Girard's Executors, 1844* (Unanimous Decision Commending and Encouraging the Use of the Bible in Government - Run Schools).
> ...


The United States Supreme Court decided 72 against Dred Scott, finding that neither he nor any other person of African ancestry could claim citizenship in the United States.

They don't always get it right, do they? But Dred Scott was overturned 11 years later. It just took a little longer for it to correct itself and outlaw prayer in schools. You may think they are wrong in same sex marriage but time will tell. I have a feeling you will go to your grave grumbling about this and being wrong the entire time - about that and most of your ignorant constitutional blatherings.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

In the present day, Republicans are heavily allied with Christian right wing extremists that would require Bible studies in every school across the country. Considering how diverse America is today, even the Founders would reject that. Christianity is a dying religion and the extremists have only themselves to blame for that. Their hard line stance is disgusting and un-American. It goes against everything the framers of the Constitution envisioned when they wrote the first amendment. If these fundamentalist Christians want to teach the Bible in private schools, let them. But stay out of public schools. People do not pay school taxes so that their child can be indoctrinated into barbaric and outdated religions. Religion is not what our children need to be learning. Our country needs more men and women of science, mathematics, and history. Not Bible thumpers.

Addicting Information


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Who do you think made the biggest scientific and mathematical discoveries? Christians, of course!


There is absolutely no point to your ramblings. That statement has no relevance to anything being discussed, so anyone can see you are dragging a red herring into the conversation. Strategy of a loser.

Switching you off now.


----------



## krestiekrew (Aug 24, 2012)

WHEW!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Who do you think made the biggest scientific and mathematical discoveries? Christians, of course!


Ha Ha. I would have answered the Ashkenazi Jews. We have accomplished more considering our numbers, than any other group. The Christians destroy cultures, sadly.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> There is absolutely no point to your ramblings. That statement has no relevance to anything being discussed, so anyone can see you are dragging a red herring into the conversation. Strategy of a loser.
> 
> Switching you off now.


Shhh, please do not tell her about the concept of zero. The Muslim world expounded on the Indian, or Hindu to be correct, concept of zero.

Now algebra, hmmmmm another innovation from the Muslim world.

Those clumsy Roman numerals were replaced by the Arabic notation of numerals 1, 3, 6, etc. Sounds like another Muslim advancement to me.

We could go on and delve into medicine, science, and many other fields. But it was the Christian Crusaders who brought Muslim learning to Europe when they returned from the Crusades. But we would not want to spoil the fun and do the research for another poster.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> The sign in front of a Church in Virginia reads: Remember, Satan was the first to demand equal rights.


When backed into the corner of logic, the delusional revert to more BS.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Shhh, please do not tell her about the concept of zero. The Muslim world expounded on the Indian, or Hindu to be correct, concept of zero.
> 
> Now algebra, hmmmmm another innovation from the Muslim world.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Eve for pointing out some facts that I thought of but was not quick enough to post. Our schools do NOT teach these truths.


----------



## jmf6406 (Dec 13, 2012)

mojave said:


> I started this thread and I remain unhappy about the rude, crass remarks being made by liberals, conservatives, atheists, Christians and others. Ever heard of the concept "polite disagreement"?


Don't blame yourself. I am sure your post was done innocently. These verbal fights occur every now and then. This forum is like Thanksgiving dinner with the relatives sometimes


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

DGreen said:


> You might want to go back and re-read the Declaration of Independence. Today would be a good day to do that.
> 
> The reasons are enumerated in detail, and I have not been able to find restriction of religious liberty among them.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I do not remember a specific law passed by the Congress. It seems they were all "made up" by Federal Courts or the Supreme Court. The removal of any Christian monuments from any public land, removal of Bibles and Prayer from schools, and government meetings, Court martial of Christians in the Military. Calling Amendments to state constitutions unconstitutional. Then the ruling by the Supreme Court last week.
> 
> Actually it is Unconstitutional for the Supreme Court to make a law, but they did it next week. All laws are to start in Congress, passed and then signed by the President. Then the Supreme Court is to rule if they are constitutional. There was no law passed by the Congress and signed by the president for the Supreme Court to rule on. Therefore, they made it up.


The sky is green.
The grass is blue.
The earth is flat.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> The sign in front of a Church in Virginia reads: Remember, Satan was the first to demand equal rights.


The sky is green.
The grass is blue.
The earth is flat.


----------



## Medieval Reenactor (Sep 3, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Who do you think made the biggest scientific and mathematical discoveries? Christians, of course!


Oh good grief! This is so easily debunked. Here are just a tiny fraction of scientific and mathematical discoveries by non-Christians.

Streptomycin (Selman A. Waksman), penicillin (Ernst Boris Chain), human blood groups (Karl Landsteiner).

Color Photography - Gabriel Lippmann

Discoveries that lead to both Nuclear power and Nuclear weapons - 37 of 40 scientists on the Manhattan Project.

The spinning wheel, astronomy (think the Magi following that Star)

Almost every calendar system invented by non-Christians was more accurate than the Christian calendar.

Medicine--much of the medicine used by Christians came from non-Christian cultures in China, Greece and Rome, Africa and the Middle East.

Irrigation, agriculture, domesticating animals, dairy culture, weaving, KNITTING, metallurgy, writing, the printing press, the list goes on and on....

==Mathmatics==

The earliest fractions and algebraic equations invented in Babylon 3800 years ago.

Decimal numeration and place values invented in China 3200 years ago, about the same time people in India were counting to a trillion.

The first explanation of the Pythagorean theory occurred in India ~200 years before Pythagoras.

Thales and Pythagoras worked out geometry in Greece 2600 - 2400 years ago.

Euclid. 300 BCE.

Hipparchus and Ptolemy. Trigonometry. Which was later improved even more in India.

"Arabic" numerals were invented in India.

And what may be the most important mathematical invention of all time--the concept of zero. Probably invented first in India, but independently derived in other cultures as well, none of them Christian.

And then we come to Fibonacci, who was a Christian. He brought a lot of Arabic, Indian and North African mathematical knowledge into Europe and urged switching from Roman to "Arabic" numerals. The Church suppressed a lot of that--God forbid we should switch to efficient Arabic Numerals used by Muslims! And of course, Fibonacci re-discovered what's now called the Fibonacci sequence, but Indians had known about it for over 600 years by then.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Way to many Christians for me to try to list.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science
> 
> They do not have a list of non Christians


 :thumbup:


----------



## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

Christian scientists vs. Jewish scientists vs. Muslim scientists??? Of all the idiotic stupidity I have seen on this forum, this really takes the cake!!!

I AM A SCIENTIST. WE DO NOT USE SOMEONE'S RELIGIOUS BELIEFS AS PROOF OF SCIENTIFIC COMPETENCY. 

We don't look back at our predecessors and judge them based on their religion. We judge their competency by the uniqueness of their ideas in comparison with the prevailing science beliefs of the time or how well their ideas have stood the test of time.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

mojave said:


> Christian scientists vs. Jewish scientists vs. Muslim scientists??? Of all the idiotic stupidity I have seen on this forum, this really takes the cake!!!
> 
> I AM A SCIENTIST. WE DO NOT USE SOMEONE'S RELIGIOUS BELIEFS AS PROOF OF SCIENTIFIC COMPETENCY.
> 
> We don't look back at our predecessors and judge them based on their religion. We judge their competency by the uniqueness of their ideas in comparison with the prevailing science beliefs of the time or how well their ideas have stood the test of time.


Thank you, Mojave.

Ironic, isn't it, that Joey is bragging about how many Christians made scientific discoveries, which makes them somehow better than everyone else, yet she holds fast to some of the worst of the UNSCIENTIFIC beliefs you'll read on this forum.

Joey is a climate science denier. According to her, 97% of scientists are wrong to say climate change is man caused.

Joey is an anti-vaxxer who would rather believe lunatics on the internet than actual scientists and appears to think the well-known phenomenon of herd immunity is ridiculous.

Joey believes that those white streaks you see in the sky are not what any 6th grade student of science knows they are, but instead are an evil plot intended to ...(insert favorite conspiracy theory)

Draw your own conclusions, especially since she is trying to make a point about Christians being leaders in science as an argument for teaching the bible in schools. Go figure.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## krestiekrew (Aug 24, 2012)

Hmmmmm....


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

Most of my research is related to the effects of global climate change. I've tried explaining the convergence of evidence from many different science specialties to the climate change deniers and concluded my precious time is better spent.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

mojave said:


> Most of my research is related to the effects of global climate change. I've tried explaining the convergence of evidence from many different science specialties to the climate change deniers and concluded my precious time is better spent.


THANK YOU for all you do!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I would like to see a list of all the cultures that Christianity destroyed in its conquest to get the most adherents.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

To further emphasis my point regarding credentials used to judge scientific competency of current and past scientists, did any of you see Neil deGrasse Tyson's comment about the Vatican astrophysicists? Neil clearly stated his admiration is based on their work in astrophysics. Their affiliation with the Vatican does not make them better or worse scientists. They are competent scientists who have also chosen to take religious vows.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I would like to see a list of all the cultures that Christianity destroyed in its conquest to get the most adherents.


Not possible. We will never know how many South American tribes were annihilated by disease prior to their existence being recorded by Spanish and Portuguese clerics and scholars.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
- James Madison, General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia (1785)

Never more true than in 2015 as practiced by those who are claiming religious persecution over same-sex marriage.


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## MommaCrochet (Apr 15, 2012)

I am a straight Christian, but have Christian gay and lesbian friends and family. I believe we should accept every one without judgement. God is perfectly capable of judging when the time comes. If I take on that responsibility, it's as if I'm saying He isn't able to handle it, negating His power in which I put my faith. However, I would urge people not to put all Christians into the extremist, unaccepting, fire and brimstone category! We're not all like that!In fact, after much research and consideration, I changed denominations, because my views do not coincide with my previous church affiliation. So, just know ALL Christians do not view LGBT community in the manner some have stated here. Please don't judge all Christians based on these off the wall views and comments!


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

MommaCrochet

Thank you for giving your perspective on this topic. I like to think most KP members are thoughtful, respectful persons such as yourself. Most Christians of my personal acquaintance belong to denominations of the sort you chose to join. The zealots want the world to exactly conform to their narrow, rigid requirements. Why they are unable to revel in the marvelous diversity of human cultures is a mystery beyond my comprehension.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Please notice the date this was written. They (Gay Agenda) will not be satisfied until all Religious objection is eliminated. Jesus needs to return and remove his faithful followers from the earth. Then leave the rest for three and half years of peace. Then 3 and half years of hell on earth, that will seem like heaven to what will be experienced when they will cast into the lake of fire. Where will you be?
> 
> February 13, 2008 Unmasking the "gay" agenda


Reported to Admin as objectionable Christian propaganda.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Reported to Admin as objectionable Christian propaganda.


Also reported to Admin. The deliberate antagonism adds nothing positive to the discussion. Sincere religious belief in homosexuality being sinful is one thing. Copy and Paste Jobs of totally unsubstantiated conspiracy theories are quite another matter. I requested Admin return some sanity to this forum.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

mojave said:


> Also reported to Admin. The deliberate antagonism adds nothing positive to the discussion. Sincere religious belief in homosexuality being sinful is one thing. Copy and Paste Jobs of totally unsubstantiated conspiracy theories are quite another matter. I requested Admin return some sanity to this forum.


Thank you. Despite all efforts to discuss in a reasonable manner, she continues to preach. Over the top.


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

mojave said:


> Also reported to Admin. The deliberate antagonism adds nothing positive to the discussion. Sincere religious belief in homosexuality being sinful is one thing. Copy and Paste Jobs of totally unsubstantiated conspiracy theories are quite another matter. I requested Admin return some sanity to this forum.


I also reported the poster. As a gay man I find this person to be very offensive.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

Thank you, brucew


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I could not read Mrs. Somma's lengthy article. I do not even possess the words to rebut what little I read. But it did remind me of Wild West Saloon Mentality - check your guns and reason at the door. My mind is blown says the '60s Sloth.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I bet you didn't even read, as this is what has happened in our country, almost step by step.
> 
> What has he stated that has not happened?
> 
> All you can say is that, if I posted it. It is propaganda.


Admin will issue a ruling on the propriety of your postings just as the Supreme Court issued a lawful ruling on the constitutionality of same-sex marriage.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

mojave said:


> Admin will issue a ruling on the propriety of your postings just as the Supreme Court issued a lawful ruling on the constitutionality of same-sex marriage.


Ha Ha. You do have a sense of humor.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> I could not read Mrs. Somma's lengthy article. I do not even possess the words to rebut what little I read. But it did remind me of Wild West Saloon Mentality - check your guns and reason at the door. My mind is blown says the '60s Sloth.


My screen suddenly went into a fuzz over or total white out so I could not read it. Or was it my eyes refused to see it and read it. No matter, never mind.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Now for all of you who are calling this propaganda, find three (3) predictions that have not happened since 2008. But I should know better, you won't even try. Since I wrote it and all I am is one of those "Right Wing Christian Fundamentalists.


Mrs. Somma,

You are being very insensitive by posting these messages of questionable value. I cannot imagine that you would deliberately want to hurt a reader. You are free to believe what you want, but broadcasting sentiments that are objectionable and mean-spirited - well I only hope you can rethink what you are doing and do better.


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> You are not interested in what the Gay Agenda has been doing to destroy our Country? People on here won't believe me. I thought they might see something in what was predicted 7 years ago. As I have said before they are not interested in equal marriage they want to destroy marriage.


You seem to be a bit paranoid to me. I am a 62 year old gay man and I have never seen a gay agenda. The only thing I am aware of is wanting and expecting equal rights under the law just like all other tax payers. No special rights, JUST EQUAL RIGHTS.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> You are not interested in what the Gay Agenda has been doing to destroy our Country? People on here won't believe me. I thought they might see something in what was predicted 7 years ago. As I have said before they are not interested in equal marriage they want to destroy marriage.


We are all clear on your position. Most of America disagrees with your point of view. It is painful to read your posts. Please stop, if you can. I do not wish to join you in your beliefs. I am sure there are many others who would agree with you but you post mostly on the more liberal threads where I just get a bit disgusted. No converts here.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

That was either the greatest satirical genius or a totally foul, paranoid idiot at work. I would really like to think it was the former.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Now for all of you who are calling this propaganda, find three (3) predictions that have not happened since 2008. But I should know better, you won't even try. Since I wrote it and all I am is one of those "Right Wing Christian Fundamentalists.


Reported to Admin.


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/07/05/must-watch-brilliant-take-down-of-right-wing-traditional-marriage-argument-video/

Interesting video on traditional marriage through history. Scroll down to see video.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Thank you. Despite all efforts to discuss in a reasonable manner, she continues to preach. Over the top.


Maybe you will have more success than the rest of us.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> You are not interested in what the Gay Agenda has been doing to destroy our Country? People on here won't believe me. I thought they might see something in what was predicted 7 years ago. As I have said before they are not interested in equal marriage they want to destroy marriage.


I think we are better to let her spout her hate. I don't know whether her opinions are known on the main threads.The more people who read her hate, the more notice will be taken of what some are saying/

Bruce and others- thank God she is a minority but they have to be taken seriously as they will do everything possible to cause you heartbreak and problems. I wish it was over for you all, but as you can see - it is just one big step this week, there will be lots to come I am afraid. I stand beside you from up here in Canada. I am sure many many many others do too on this forum and all over the world. GLBT people should celebrate but watch what this person and her cohorts are saying and fight your battles. I wish you all well.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

We have two options to neutralize joeysomma's cut and paste jobs. 
1. Appeal to Admin 
2. Completely ignore her, no responses. Pretend her messages are not there when she posts messages designed solely for the purpose of insulting, degrading and harassing other forum members. Respond only when she chooses to "play nice".


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

mojave said:


> We have two options to neutralize joeysomma's cut and paste jobs.
> 1. Appeal to Admin
> 2. Completely ignore her, no responses. Pretend her messages are not there when she posts messages designed solely for the purpose of insulting, degrading and harassing other forum members. Respond only when she chooses to "play nice".


I like your behavioral training suggestion so I will follow #2. It works well with tantruming babies.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I think we are better to let her spout her hate. I don't know whether her opinions are known on the main threads.The more people who read her hate, the more notice will be taken of what some are saying.


She is free to spout her hateful messages until such time as Admin decides otherwise. Others viewing her messages may or may not be sympathetic to those of us who find her messages tiresome. My choice is to ignore her postings and observe the effect. And I am confident you will make the choice best for you.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I'm so glad you recovered and your DW did not have to make decisions on removing life support or refusing to have a feeding tube inserted or anything like that - the sort of life and death decisions many hospitals would challenge or would override. Some will even ignore DNR's.


In my experience, DNRs have been overridden when there are questions over it's legality (i.e., second signature missing etc.,). On one occasion where the DNR was overridden the patient recovered from the medical emergency yet the family wanted to sue. When it was pointed out to the family that the DNR paperwork was questionable they did an about face. The patient (an aunt) cut them off forever!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> The sky is green.
> The grass is blue.
> The earth is flat.


And the devil is liberal so it seems.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Way to many Christians for me to try to list.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science
> 
> They do not have a list of non Christians


I know of one Christian who can't spell and that would be you. "Way to many Christians..." should read "Way too many Christians..."


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I would like to see a list of all the cultures that Christianity destroyed in its conquest to get the most adherents.


Off you go then Sloth, list the cultures!


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I like your behavioral training suggestion so I will follow #2. It works well with tantruming babies.


We can try the technique (shrug). Maybe it will have some effect in the desired direction. Oh about my sense of humor, yes, it does exist


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> You are not interested in what the Gay Agenda has been doing to destroy our Country? People on here won't believe me. I thought they might see something in what was predicted 7 years ago. As I have said before they are not interested in equal marriage they want to destroy marriage.


Joey - how long will it take you to see that we do not believe you. I am a Christian and I do not agree with you.
my God is a kind God - No one on the thread you visit daily and Preach to us, even when we have asked you over and over to leave us alone agree with you. There are Non Christians, Other Religions represented, Those who are Athiests. We all live together on this earth. Your beliefs are your beliefs -- Please leave us alone.

Do unto others as ye would have them do unto you.

All people are God's Children. Love Thy neighbour!

I am so glad that a door has been opened in the name of Decency. It cannot be closed.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

mojave said:


> Admin will issue a ruling on the propriety of your postings just as the Supreme Court issued a lawful ruling on the constitutionality of same-sex marriage.


I reported the highly offensive posts to Admin. as well. I hope this lunacy will stop once and for all. Enough is enough.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> Mrs. Somma,
> 
> You are being very insensitive by posting these messages of questionable value. I cannot imagine that you would deliberately want to hurt a reader. You are free to believe what you want, but broadcasting sentiments that are objectionable and mean-spirited - well I only hope you can rethink what you are doing and do better.


To post that once was bad enough but then to post it a second time very shortly after is unforgivable. Is there no depths to which this poster will not stoop.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> That was either the greatest satirical genius or a totally foul, paranoid idiot at work. I would really like to think it was the former.


No such luck. So much for the conservative mantra "Hate the sin, love the sinner". Religious conservative do hate gays, and they project that loathing onto their targets in a manner that's twisted, sick, and dangerous.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

DGreen said:


> In the present day, Republicans are heavily allied with Christian right wing extremists that would require Bible studies in every school across the country. Considering how diverse America is today, even the Founders would reject that. Christianity is a dying religion and the extremists have only themselves to blame for that. Their hard line stance is disgusting and un-American. It goes against everything the framers of the Constitution envisioned when they wrote the first amendment. If these fundamentalist Christians want to teach the Bible in private schools, let them. But stay out of public schools. People do not pay school taxes so that their child can be indoctrinated into barbaric and outdated religions. Religion is not what our children need to be learning. Our country needs more men and women of science, mathematics, and history. Not Bible thumpers.
> 
> Addicting Information


~~~~~

So right. And that goes double for the bogus Good News Clubs after school indoctrination programs.

I would be thrilled if the public schools in my state taught reading, spelling, and basic mathematics. That should be priority one. The world is changing rapidly, and each morning we all wake up in an entirely different world. These young children will be running the country in a few years, and education is paramount.

The inability to think logically using both inductive and deductive reasoning, and the lack of reading comprehension is appalling. Witness the results right here on KP, on this thread, and several others. People who cannot comprehend the written words in The Constitution probably have no business trying to read and comprehend the contradictory mythology in the bible.

The list of things they no longer teach in schools is getting longer every day. I have been a taxpayer since 1976, and have been paying school taxes for public education all these years. If the current generation of high school graduates are any indication, we are knee deep in alligators. And I want a refund.

If they or their parents want Bronze Age mythology, aka bible study, they can do it at home as a family, or at any of the numerous churches within walking distance of anywhere.

These are the same people who believe the Earth is 6000 years old because a Catholic bishop declared it so 500 years ago , based on zero evidence, while at the same time declaring Catholicism anathema, 2 naked people and a talking snake, a talking donkey, a 900 year old man built a boat for himself, his family, and every animal on Earth. Apparently the kangaroos and penguins hitched a ride on a Greyhound Bus to get back to their original homes.

European school children are bilingual as a matter of course. Many Americans of every age are illiterate in their own language, cannot differentiate between a gerund and a gerunde, cannot identify a macron, a tilde, or the components of basic grammar. Reading and memorizing bible verses is not an improvement, but an impediment, like hobbling a moose.

Who wins the national Spelling Bee in the US ? The child whose parents emigrated to the US from India, 15 out of the last 19 winners, Indian Americans make up less than 1% of the US population. The US is so far behind, other countries are not only eating our lunch, they have already started eating our lunch for next year.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

brucew said:


> http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/07/05/must-watch-brilliant-take-down-of-right-wing-traditional-marriage-argument-video/
> 
> Interesting video on traditional marriage through history. Scroll down to see video.


I have recently discovered Matt Baume's videos on Youtube. Thank you for sharing this link.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I think we are better to let her spout her hate. I don't know whether her opinions are known on the main threads.The more people who read her hate, the more notice will be taken of what some are saying/
> 
> Bruce and others- thank God she is a minority but they have to be taken seriously as they will do everything possible to cause you heartbreak and problems. I wish it was over for you all, but as you can see - it is just one big step this week, there will be lots to come I am afraid. I stand beside you from up here in Canada. I am sure many many many others do too on this forum and all over the world. GLBT people should celebrate but watch what this person and her cohorts are saying and fight your battles. I wish you all well.


~~~~

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

joeysomma said

"Please notice the date this was written. They (Gay Agenda) will not be satisfied until all Religious objection is eliminated. Jesus needs to return and remove his faithful followers from the earth. Then leave the rest for three and half years of peace. Then 3 and half years of hell on earth, that will seem like heaven to what will be experienced when they will cast into the lake of fire. Where will you be?

February 13, 2008 Unmasking the "gay" agenda"


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Promises, promises, promises... any day now for the last ... how many years ? 

Marvin K. Mooney, would you please go now ?

I will be right here, not having to listen to all of this pointless twaddle from humorless bible thumpers like you and the other fear mongering hateful individuals.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Dangrktty said:


> ~~~~~
> 
> So right. And that goes double for the bogus Good News Clubs after school indoctrination programs.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your post. I think it deserves to be read twice, that is why I have posted it again.

This is posted very much tongue in cheek, very cheeky I know. You have answered a question that I have been pondering for most of my life. How to you explain the Galapagos penguin (Spheniscus mendiculus) which is a penguin endemic to the Galapagos Islands. It is the only penguin that lives north of the equator in the wild. Now you have answered my question and I thank you. You explained it all when you wrote the words "Apparently the kangaroos and penguins hitched a ride on a Greyhound Bus to get back to their original homes." Now I see the answer to my question is so glaringly obvious, the Galapagos penguin either boarded the incorrect bus and ended up the the Galapagos, or they missed their connecting bus at the Galapagos terminal and consequently were doomed to that remote spot.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Thank you for your post. I think it deserves to be read twice, that is why I have posted it again.
> 
> This is posted very much tongue in cheek, very cheeky I know. You have answered a question that I have been pondering for most of my life. How to you explain the Galapagos penguin (Spheniscus mendiculus) which is a penguin endemic to the Galapagos Islands. It is the only penguin that lives north of the equator in the wild. Now you have answered my question and I thank you. You explained it all when you wrote the words "Apparently the kangaroos and penguins hitched a ride on a Greyhound Bus to get back to their original homes." Now I see the answer to my question is so glaringly obvious, the Galapagos penguin either boarded the incorrect bus and ended up the the Galapagos, or they missed their connecting bus at the Galapagos terminal and consequently were doomed to that remote spot.


The thing that has always bothered me about the Ark story is there is no mention of what the animals ate after the ark landed. All the grass for the grazing animals would have been drowned and there would be nothing for the predators to eat, let alone the humans. Then, there's that incest thing again....


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Wow...thumbs up to Facebook. I just had a altercation with one of my Facebook "friends"--she called Michelle Obama a baboon and, when I objected, snarled that I'd better not call her a racist because "that's what she [Michelle] looks like!" Five seconds later I heard a beep, the dialogue disappeared, and then "friend" and her entire Facebook page vanished!


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

The version told to me was a wee bit different...
- The Spheniscus mendiculus were renowned for their delicate olfactory sense.
- Being housed next to the hippos, who due to the circumstances lacked opportunity to perform normal daily ablutions, was aromatically challenging for the penguins.
- At the first opportunity, they jumped ship and gave thanks their new home was far from Hippo-land.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Wow...thumbs up to Facebook. I just had a altercation with one of my Facebook "friends"--she called Michelle Obama a baboon and, when I objected, snarled that I'd better not call her a racist because "that's what she [Michelle] looks like!" Five seconds later I heard a beep, the dialogue disappeared, and then "friend" and her entire Facebook page vanished!


Good riddance.


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## jmf6406 (Dec 13, 2012)

DGreen said:


> The thing that has always bothered me about the Ark story is there is no mention of what the animals ate after the ark landed. All the grass for the grazing animals would have been drowned and there would be nothing for the predators to eat, let alone the humans. Then, there's that incest thing again....


When I was about 12 years old, I started wondering just HOW all those animals fit into one ark., so I started pondering this. I think like much of oral history, the original story got embellished with each telling. There seems to be evidence that there was a flood in that area that was pretty bad. It is reasonable to assume that someone saw this coming and prepared for it. However my guess is that the two of each animal were domesticated farm animals, not two of every animal in the whole world. If you think of it, at the time, to those in the flood area, their area WAS the whole world as far as they knew. Just my train of thought--no scientific proof.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

DGreen said:


> The thing that has always bothered me about the Ark story is there is no mention of what the animals ate after the ark landed. All the grass for the grazing animals would have been drowned and there would be nothing for the predators to eat, let alone the humans. Then, there's that incest thing again....


This is very long but worth the laughs at the end. A friend, geologist Dr. Martin Leipzig, wrote this some time ago.

First- the global flood supposedly (Scripturally) covered the planet and Mount Everest is 8,848 meters tall. The diameter of the earth at the equator, on the other hand, is 12,756.8 km. All we have to do is calculate the volume of water to fill a sphere with a radius of the Earth + Mount Everest; then we subtract the volume of a sphere with a radius of the Earth. Now, I know this won't yield a perfect result, because the Earth isn't a perfect sphere, but it will serve to give a general idea about the amounts involved.

So, here are the calculations:

First, Everest

V= 4/3 * pi * r cubed
= 4/3 * pi * 6387.248 km cubed
= 1.09151 x 10 to the 12 cubic kilometres (1.09151x102 km3)

Now, the Earth at sea level

V = 4/3 * pi * r cubed
= 4/3 * pi * 6378.4 km cubed
= 1.08698 x 10 to the 12 cubic kilometres (1.08698x1012 km3)
The difference between these two figures is the amount of water needed to just cover the Earth:
4.525 x 10 to the ninth cubic kilometres (4.525x1009 km3) Or, to put into a more sensible number, 4,525,000,000,000 cubic kilometres

This is one helluva lot of water.

For those who think it might come from the polar ice caps, please don't forget that water is more dense than ice, and thus that the volume of ice present in those ice caps would have to be more than the volume of water necessary.

Some interesting physical effects of all that water, too. How much weight do you think that is? Well, water at STP weighs in at 1 gram/cubic centimetre (by definition)...so,

4.252x1009 km3 of water,
X 106 (= cubic meters),
X 106 (= cubic centimetres),
X 1 g/cm3 (= grams),
X 10-3 (= kilograms),
(turn the crank)
equals 4.525E+21 kg.

Ever wonder what the effects of that much weight would be? Well, many times in the near past (i.e., the Pleistocene), continental ice sheets covered many of the northern states and most all of Canada. For the sake of argument, let's call the area covered by the Wisconsinian advance (the latest and greatest) was 10,000,000,000 (ten million) km2, by an average thickness of 1 km of ice (a good estimate...it was thicker in some areas [the zones of accumulation] and much thinner elsewhere [at the ablating edges]). Now, 1.00x1007 km2 X 1 km thickness equals 1.00E+07 km3 of ice.

Now, remember earlier that we noted that it would take 4.525x1009 km3 of water for the flood? Well, looking at the Wisconsinian glaciation, all that ice (which is frozen water, remember?) would be precisely 0.222% [...do the math](that's zero decimal two hundred twenty two thousandths) percent of the water needed for the flood.

Well, the Wisconsinian glacial stade ended about 25,000 YBP (years before present), as compared for the approximately supposedly 4,000 YBP flood event.

Due to these late Pleistocene glaciations (some 21,000 years preceding the supposed flood), the mass of the ice has actually depressed the crust of the Earth. That crust, now that the ice is gone, is slowly rising (called glacial rebound); and this rebound can be measured, in places (like northern Wisconsin), in centimetres/year. Sea level was also lowered some 10's of meters due to the very finite amount of water in the Earth's hydrosphere being locked up in glacial ice sheets (geologists call this glacioeustacy).

Now, glacial rebound can only be measured, obviously, in glaciated terranes, i.e., the Sahara is not rebounding as it was not glaciated during the Pleistocene. This lack of rebound is noted by laser ranged interferometery and satellite geodesy [so there], as well as by geomorphology. Glacial striae on bedrock, eskers, tills, moraines, rouche moutenees, drumlins, kame and kettle topography, fjords, deranged fluvial drainage and erratic blocks all betray a glacier's passage. Needless to say, these geomorphological expressions are not found everywhere on Earth (for instance, like the Sahara). Therefore, although extensive, the glaciers were a local (not global) is scale. Yet, at only 0.222% the size of the supposed flood, they have had a PROFOUND and EASILY recognisable and measurable effects on the lands.

Yet, the supposed flood of Noah, supposedly global in extent, supposedly much more recent, and supposedly orders of magnitude larger in scale; has exactly zero measurable effects and zero evidence for it's occurrence.

Golly, Wally. I wonder why that may be...?

Further, Mount Everest extends through 2/3 of the Earth's atmosphere. Since two forms of matter can't occupy the same space, we have an additional problem with the atmosphere. Its current boundary marks the point at which gasses of the atmosphere can escape the Earth's gravitational field. Even allowing for partial dissolving of the atmosphere into our huge ocean, we'd lose the vast majority of our atmosphere as it is raised some 5.155 km higher by the rising flood waters; and it boils off into space.

Yet, we still have a quite thick and nicely breathable atmosphere. In fact, ice cores from Antarctica (as well as deep-sea sediment cores) which can be geochemically tested for paleoatmospheric constituents and relative gas ratios; and these records extend well back into the Pleistocene, far more than the supposed 4,000 YBP flood event. Strange that this major loss of atmosphere, atmospheric fractionation (lighter gasses (oxygen, nitrogen, fluorine, neon, etc.) would have boiled off first in the flood-water rising scenario, enriching what remained with heavier gasses (argon, krypton, xenon, radon, etc.)), and massive extinctions from such global upheavals are totally unevidenced in these cores.

Even further, let us take a realistic and dispassionate look at the other claims relating to global flooding and other such biblical nonsense.

Particularly, in order to flood the Earth to the Genesis requisite depth of 10 cubits (~15' or 5 m.) above the summit of Mt. Ararat (16,900' or 5,151 m AMSL), it would obviously require a water depth of 16,915' (5,155.7 m), or over three miles above mean sea level. In order to accomplish this little task, it would require the previously noted additional 4.525 x 109 km3 of water to flood the Earth to this depth. The Earth's present hydrosphere (the sum total of all waters in, on and above the Earth) totals only 1.37 x 109 km3. Where would this additional 4.525 x 109 km3 of water come from? It cannot come from water vapour (i.e., clouds) because the atmospheric pressure would be 840 times greater than standard pressure of the atmosphere today. Further, the latent heat released when the vapour condenses into liquid water would be enough to raise the temperature of the Earth's atmosphere to approximately 3,570 C (6,460 F).

Someone, who shall properly remain anonymous, suggested that all the water needed to flood the Earth existed as liquid water surrounding the globe (i.e., a "vapour canopy"). This, of course, it staggeringly stupid. What is keeping that much water from falling to the Earth? There is a little property called gravity that would cause it to fall.

Let's look into that from a physical standpoint. To flood the Earth, we have already seen that it would require 4.252 x 109 km3 of water with a mass of 4.525 x 1021 kg. When this amount of water is floating about the Earth's surface, it stored an enormous amount of potential energy, which is converted to kinetic energy when it falls, which, in turn, is converted to heat upon impact with the Earth. The amount of heat released is immense:

Potential energy: E=M*g*H, where
M = mass of water,
g = gravitational constant and,
H = height of water above surface.
Now, going with the Genesis version of the Noachian Deluge as lasting 40 days and nights, the amount of mass falling to Earth each day is 4.525 x 1021 kg/40 24 hr. periods. This equals 1.10675 x 1020 kilograms daily. Using H as 10 miles (16,000 meters), the energy released each day is 1.73584 x 1025 joules. The amount of energy the Earth would have to radiate per m2/sec is energy divided by surface area of the Earth times number of seconds in one day. That is: e = 1.735384 x 1025/(4*3.14159* ((6386)2*86,400)) = 391,935.0958 j/m2/s.
Currently, the Earth radiates energy at the rate of approximately 215 joules/m2/sec and the average temperature is 280 K. Using the Stefan- Boltzman 4'th power law to calculate the increase in temperature:

E (increase)/E (normal) = T (increase)/T4 (normal)

E (normal) = 215
E (increase) = 391,935.0958
T (normal) = 280.

Turn the crank, and T (increase) equals 1800 K.

The temperature would thusly rise 1800 K, or 1,526.84 C (that's 2,780.33 F...lead melts at 880 F...ed note). It would be highly unlikely that anything short of fused quartz would survive such an onslaught. Also, the water level would have to rise at an average rate of 5.5 inches/min; and in 13 minutes would be in excess of 6' deep.
Finally, at 1800 K water would not exist as liquid.

It is quite clear that a Biblical Flood is and was quite impossible. Only fools and those shackled by dogma would insist otherwise.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Cue the head explosions in .... 3_2_


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

jmf6406 said:


> When I was about 12 years old, I started wondering just HOW all those animals fit into one ark., so I started pondering this. I think like much of oral history, the original story got embellished with each telling. There seems to be evidence that there was a flood in that area that was pretty bad. It is reasonable to assume that someone saw this coming and prepared for it. However my guess is that the two of each animal were domesticated farm animals, not two of every animal in the whole world. If you think of it, at the time, to those in the flood area, their area WAS the whole world as far as they knew. Just my train of thought--no scientific proof.


Which accounting do you believe is another question. In one it was 2 of each animal. In another it's 7 of 'clean' animals and 2 of 'unclean'.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

DGreen said:


> The thing that has always bothered me about the Ark story is there is no mention of what the animals ate after the ark landed. All the grass for the grazing animals would have been drowned and there would be nothing for the predators to eat, let alone the humans. Then, there's that incest thing again....


Heehee! My favorite head-scratcher in regards to Noah and his ark is how he got all those hulking carnivorous dinosaurs on board. The explanations are priceless: dinosaur eggs, baby dinosaurs, that T-Rexes were herbivores in those days etc etc.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Heehee! My favorite head-scratcher in regards to Noah and his ark is how he got all those hulking carnivorous dinosaurs on board. The explanations are priceless: dinosaur eggs, baby dinosaurs, that T-Rexes were herbivores in those days etc etc.


There's also the version that states that all animals were only germ cells frozen until they could be used. First sperm and egg banks.


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## jmf6406 (Dec 13, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Which accounting do you believe is another question. In one it was 2 of each animal. In another it's 7 of 'clean' animals and 2 of 'unclean'.


Well, since I think the story got embellished to the point that it was pretty fantastic, I never worried about the clean and unclean part. It would make sense that they would take more of the types of animals they routinely used for food, though.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> This is very long but worth the laughs at the end. A friend, geologist Dr. Martin Leipzig, wrote this some time ago.
> 
> First- the global flood supposedly (Scripturally) covered the planet and Mount Everest is 8,848 meters tall.
> It is quite clear that a Biblical Flood is and was quite impossible. Only fools and those shackled by dogma would insist otherwise.


(Text deleted for space)

But, but...with god all things are possible!

(Though I distinctly remember being taught that god cannot perform a contradiction - like making a rock so heavy even he can't lift it).

Thanks, jbandsma, for that exceptional and very scientific refutation of the ark story. Stick that up your nose, Ken Ham!


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

DGreen said:


> (Text deleted for space)
> 
> But, but...with god all things are possible!
> 
> ...


Marty's got a lot of them. Including hunting for the ark, being sold one of the ark's stone anchors and a meeting between him, a bunch of other geologist and a group of fundamentalists at the Paluxy "man" tracks in Texas. Debunking crap is just one of the things he does exceedingly well.

And does it in a way that makes you smile.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

mojave said:


> We have two options to neutralize joeysomma's cut and paste jobs.
> 1. Appeal to Admin
> 2. Completely ignore her, no responses. Pretend her messages are not there when she posts messages designed solely for the purpose of insulting, degrading and harassing other forum members. Respond only when she chooses to "play nice".


Regarding your 2nd option, most of this group of liberals have stated the same many times. Yet that is the one thing they just DON'T do. One has to wonder why? I submit it is because they get enjoyment out of the attack, especially the ones that join in the attack afterwards. It's like a gang rape, where everyone wants a turn.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> Regarding your 2nd option, most of this group of liberals have stated the same many times. Yet that is the one thing they just DON'T do. One has to wonder why? I submit it is because they get enjoyment out of the attack, especially the ones that join in the attack afterwards. It's like a gang rape, where everyone wants a turn.


I submit it is because Joey is relentless in her attempts to bait people on this thread and knows precisely how her words will be received, yet injects her evangelizing where it is not wanted on purpose. Sometimes, people simply can't let her stupidity go unchallenged.

If Joey is so "hurt" by people on this thread, why does she continually come back and do that?

If you want to go with the analogy to "gang rape" then Joey is definitely asking for it, though the analogy itself it way over the top, overstated and ridiculous. She can easily avoid being insulted. If she had half a brain, she would realize no one here is going to be converted by her promises of hell-fire and brimstone, so why don't you ask HER why she opens herself up to being rejected?

While we're on the topic of rape, I find it interesting that you inject a sexual/violent element into the conversation. It has often occurred to me that Joey must get some kind of masturbatory pleasure from baiting liberals. Hmm. Something to think about, especially since Christianity at it's core worships violence and blood sacrifice.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I She can easily avoid being insulted.


No. I don't think she can. Without someone to dump her hate on she'd have no reason to live.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> No. I don't think she can. Without someone to dump her hate on she'd have no reason to live.


Yes, there's that.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Regarding your 2nd option, most of this group of liberals have stated the same many times. Yet that is the one thing they just DON'T do. One has to wonder why? I submit it is because they get enjoyment out of the attack, especially the ones that join in the attack afterwards. It's like a gang rape, where everyone wants a turn.


I suppose can only speak for myself, but I'll have no problem ignore Joey in the future. She's exposed herself not just as a woman with strong opinions but a hater. Hate is a repellent emotion, and one's gut instinct is to simply steer clear of it.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Regarding your 2nd option, most of this group of liberals have stated the same many times. Yet that is the one thing they just DON'T do. One has to wonder why? I submit it is because they get enjoyment out of the attack, especially the ones that join in the attack afterwards. It's like a gang rape, where everyone wants a turn.


Given the extremely insulting comments exchanged in some of the rants, your point of derived enjoyment has validity. With my background, the medical research indicating sexual orientation is determined in utero by maternal testosterone levels makes sense. The ongoing religious anathema for homosexuality does not make sense to me. However, I accept American citizens have the civil right to hold such religious beliefs. I strongly contest any claims such religious beliefs convey the right to persecute and deny the civil rights of other Americans. 
Joeysomma posts her cut and paste jobs solely for the purpose of insulting, demeaning and harassing other forum members. I do not approve of her conduct and will file a complaint with Admin every time she engages in such offensive conduct. If Admin revokes my forum privileges in response, so be it.


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## krestiekrew (Aug 24, 2012)

.....I gotta go knit! But I'll check back later, happily skips off waving ;-)


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

mojave said:


> Given the extremely insulting comments exchanged in some of the rants, your point of derived enjoyment has validity. With my background, the medical research indicating sexual orientation is determined in utero by maternal testosterone levels makes sense. The ongoing religious anathema for homosexuality does not make sense to me. However, I accept American citizens have the civil right to hold such religious beliefs. I strongly contest any claims such religious beliefs convey the right to persecute and deny the civil rights of other Americans.
> Joeysomma posts her cut and paste jobs solely for the purpose of insulting, demeaning and harassing other forum members. I do not approve of her conduct and will file a complaint with Admin every time she engages in such offensive conduct. If Admin revokes my forum privileges in response, so be it.


We would miss you, but I have come to feel the same way.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You don't remember them because the Supreme Court does not write law. Never has, never will.
> 
> Obviously, you do not understand the basic concept of judicial review for constitutionality which is the job of the supreme court.
> 
> ...


DGreen
she has no mind. Just an empty chamber into which others deposit nonsense.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> she has no mind. Just an empty chamber into which others deposit nonsense.


That explains a lot, Huck.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I submit it is because Joey is relentless in her attempts to bait people on this thread and knows precisely how her words will be received, yet injects her evangelizing where it is not wanted on purpose. Sometimes, people simply can't let her stupidity go unchallenged.
> 
> If Joey is so "hurt" by people on this thread, why does she continually come back and do that?
> 
> ...


DGreen
I think you are on to something.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Wow...thumbs up to Facebook. I just had a altercation with one of my Facebook "friends"--she called Michelle Obama a baboon and, when I objected, snarled that I'd better not call her a racist because "that's what she [Michelle] looks like!" Five seconds later I heard a beep, the dialogue disappeared, and then "friend" and her entire Facebook page vanished!


susanmos2000
what a fabulous function the delete button provides.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> You are not interested in what the Gay Agenda has been doing to destroy our Country? People on here won't believe me. I thought they might see something in what was predicted 7 years ago. As I have said before they are not interested in equal marriage they want to destroy marriage.


joeysomma
"....destroy our Country"? Honestly? "....want to destroy marriage"? Really? Strange World you are residing in to have those thoughts.


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## krestiekrew (Aug 24, 2012)

Found this on another theead, 
http://www.knittingparadise.com/tpr?p=7580482&t=347410

Just might be relevant ....hint, hint


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> susanmos2000
> what a fabulous function the delete button provides.


Yes, it was truly a beautiful experience. I'm surprised that Facebook Admin acted so quickly to delete the woman and her account, but then she really had been frothing at the mouth lately and no doubt there'd been numerous complaints. Total whack job--and with the gall to have as her FB avatar a Christian cross. No, I'm not kidding--people as blind as that are beyond hope.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> joeysomma
> "....destroy our Country"? Honestly? "....want to destroy marriage"? Really? Strange World you are residing in to have those thoughts.


Strange world, indeed. What I can't figure out is what those horrible gays would gain from destroying the country and marriage. That part of the prediction is curiously missing; the second part that says "So they could _________(fill in the blank)"

Since gays have the right to marry in other countries that have yet to be destroyed, I wonder why the US is so fragile that we are on the brink of catastrophe over gay marriage. Aren't we SPECIAL???


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> joeysomma
> "....destroy our Country"? Honestly? "....want to destroy marriage"? Really? Strange World you are residing in to have those thoughts.


I don't know about you but there's only 2 people who can destroy my marriage. I'm one of them.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

DGreen said:


> I submit it is because Joey is relentless in her attempts to bait people on this thread and knows precisely how her words will be received, yet injects her evangelizing where it is not wanted on purpose. Sometimes, people simply can't let her stupidity go unchallenged.
> 
> If Joey is so "hurt" by people on this thread, why does she continually come back and do that?
> 
> ...


You argument would have more teeth if it only applied to your attacks on Joey. I wasn't making it about Joey, but about your group's overall approach to attacking the one whose opinion you don't agree with. That's okay make it all about Joey, but I'm talking about your group's behavior.. Yes you can leave it unchallenged, you just don't WANT to and that is the bottom line as it's really not an option for you. It's not that difficult to ignore someone on this forum, I've been ignoring quite a few of your group for quite some time now.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> You argument would have more teeth if it only applied to your attacks on Joey. I wasn't making it about Joey, but about your group's overall approach to attacking the one whose opinion you don't agree with. That's okay make it all about Joey, but I'm talking about your group's behavior.. Yes you can leave it unchallenged, you just don't WANT to and that is the bottom line as it's really not an option for you. It's not that difficult to ignore someone on this forum, I've been ignoring quite a few of your group for quite some time now.


So, responding to SPECIFIC comments about Joey by commenting on the "2nd option" which was SPECIFICALLY about Joey, you feel you can legitimately say you were making some kind of general observation?

I see.



> mojave wrote:
> We have two options to neutralize joeysomma's cut and paste jobs.
> 1. Appeal to Admin
> 2. Completely ignore her, no responses. Pretend her messages are not there when she posts messages designed solely for the purpose of insulting, degrading and harassing other forum members. Respond only when she chooses to "play nice".
> ...


So, please tell us what you get out of commenting on this thread if you have been ignoring us for quite some time now.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> You argument would have more teeth if it only applied to your attacks on Joey. I wasn't making it about Joey, but about your group's overall approach to attacking the one whose opinion you don't agree with. That's okay make it all about Joey, but I'm talking about your group's behavior.. Yes you can leave it unchallenged, you just don't WANT to and that is the bottom line as it's really not an option for you. It's not that difficult to ignore someone on this forum, I've been ignoring quite a few of your group for quite some time now.


You are so correct, Solo. :thumbup:


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Strange world, indeed. What I can't figure out is what those horrible gays would gain from destroying the country and marriage. That part of the prediction is curiously missing; the second part that says "So they could _________(fill in the blank)"
> 
> Since gays have the right to marry in other countries that have yet to be destroyed, I wonder why the US is so fragile that we are on the brink of catastrophe over gay marriage. Aren't we SPECIAL???


I think the way it works is when we destroy 5 straight marriages we get a toaster oven. When we reach 10 we get dinner for 2 at Red Lobster. 
:lol:


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You are so correct, Solo. :thumbup:


I love your new avatar. Can you make it bigger so I can see it better?


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

brucew said:


> I think the way it works is when we destroy 5 straight marriages we get a toaster oven. When we reach 10 we get dinner for 2 at Red Lobster.
> :lol:


Ewwww! How many would it take for dinner at a GOOD restaurant?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I love your new avatar. Can you make it bigger so I can see it better?


Hi CB! I'm not surprised at your request - you, with a love of all plants, flowers and living things (like me)! :-D

Here's my full-size photo:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

jmf6406 said:


> When I was about 12 years old, I started wondering just HOW all those animals fit into one ark., so I started pondering this. I think like much of oral history, the original story got embellished with each telling. There seems to be evidence that there was a flood in that area that was pretty bad. It is reasonable to assume that someone saw this coming and prepared for it. However my guess is that the two of each animal were domesticated farm animals, not two of every animal in the whole world. If you think of it, at the time, to those in the flood area, their area WAS the whole world as far as they knew. Just my train of thought--no scientific proof.


The two by two animals on the ark is not entirely correct. It is taken as a direct quote from the Bible, whereas it is in fact a misquote. I will post a link to what I was taught about the animals on the Ark. Very interesting.

How many of each animal did Noah take on the ark?

http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/media/e/1182/t/how-many-of-each-animal-did-noah-take-on-the-ark

Turn the sound on an listen.

It is interesting. My son decided he wanted to join a church in his late teens and went along to the local LDS church because his best mate was a member of that church and his sister had also joined that church. He had many an argument with the older members of the church who insisted that the animals on the Ark went on two by two, all animals, two by two. When he found the relevant chapter and verse in the Bible they still would not believe him. They made all sorts of excuses, the copy of the Bible you are reading is incorrect, we do not follow that version of the Bible, that is a Catholic Bible and everyone knows the Catholic version of the Bible is totally inaccurate. They used every argument they could think of to discredit what he was saying. He did his own reading and found the chapter and verse himself.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

jmf6406 said:


> When I was about 12 years old, I started wondering just HOW all those animals fit into one ark., so I started pondering this. I think like much of oral history, the original story got embellished with each telling. There seems to be evidence that there was a flood in that area that was pretty bad. It is reasonable to assume that someone saw this coming and prepared for it. However my guess is that the two of each animal were domesticated farm animals, not two of every animal in the whole world. If you think of it, at the time, to those in the flood area, their area WAS the whole world as far as they knew. Just my train of thought--no scientific proof.


Recent studies have put forth possible solutions for the mystery of the Biblical flood. These possible solutions are the result of modern scientific methods and instruments. In this regard Joey's statements that history has been rewritten after 1950 is correct. I would say that history has been corrected and updated due to increased scientific discoveries and understanding since the 1950s.

I agree that in Biblical times people had no comprehension as to how large the earth was. They honestly believed that their little neck of the woods and perhaps the lands surrounding their immediate vicinity was the total world. They also did not understand the cause of floods and flooding. They saw that the rivers and streams rose after heavy rain and caused floods and therefore postulated that a mega flood must have been caused by prolonged heavy rain. The duration of this rainfall would have no doubt increased with each retelling of the story. We are all guilty of this, we do it to increase the dramatic effect of the story.

An interesting article discussing the Biblical flood is this one. It is a simple explanation and not a lengthy discussion. It also offers evidence to support an alternate route taken in the 'out of Africa' theory.

Outburst flood

In geomorphology, an outburst flood, which is a type of megaflood, is a high-magnitude, low-frequency catastrophic flood involving the sudden release of water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outburst_flood

Similar information can also be found here

Glacial lake outburst flood

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial_lake_outburst_flood

It has been suggested that the following article should be linked with this article.

Jökulhlaup

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6kulhlaup


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Hi CB! I'm not surprised at your request - you, with a love of all plants, flowers and living things (like me)! :-D
> 
> Here's my full-size photo:


Thanks . I thought that was an old typewriter. :thumbup:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

krestiekrew said:


> Found this on another theead,
> http://www.knittingparadise.com/tpr?p=7580482&t=347410
> 
> Just might be relevant ....hint, hint


It is extremely relevant. The lady who posted those words is indeed a wise woman. There is another poster here on KP who also posts words of wisdom.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

brucew said:


> I think the way it works is when we destroy 5 straight marriages we get a toaster oven. When we reach 10 we get dinner for 2 at Red Lobster.
> :lol:


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Strange world, indeed. What I can't figure out is what those horrible gays would gain from destroying the country and marriage. That part of the prediction is curiously missing; the second part that says "So they could _________(fill in the blank)"
> 
> Since gays have the right to marry in other countries that have yet to be destroyed, I wonder why the US is so fragile that we are on the brink of catastrophe over gay marriage. Aren't we SPECIAL???


DGreen
The thinking process of some folks is on a constant detour. They never get anything straight. What on Earth has my marriage to do with Gays getting married or Gays getting married with the Country falling apart? I thought everything that happens, happens under the direction of the THE God these strange people worship. Obviously they DO NOT believe. Must be Satan at work.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Thanks . I thought that was an old typewriter. :thumbup:


You're welcome.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I suppose can only speak for myself, but I'll have no problem ignore Joey in the future. She's exposed herself not just as a woman with strong opinions but a hater. Hate is a repellent emotion, and one's gut instinct is to simply steer clear of it.


It's too bad there isn't an "ignore" feature. On Amazon forums you can put someone on ignore, which means that you don't see their posts--you can see that they made one, but not the text itself. Love it. Very handy.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

brucew said:


> I think the way it works is when we destroy 5 straight marriages we get a toaster oven. When we reach 10 we get dinner for 2 at Red Lobster.
> :lol:


Touche! Since Oysters can change their gender and back again and Triggerfish can change from female to male, it seems appropriate for prizes for destroyed straight marriages to be awarded at a Seafood Restaurant. :lol:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> It's too bad there isn't an "ignore" feature. On Amazon forums you can put someone on ignore, which means that you don't see their posts--you can see that they made one, but not the text itself. Love it. Very handy.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

brucew said:


> I think the way it works is when we destroy 5 straight marriages we get a toaster oven. When we reach 10 we get dinner for 2 at Red Lobster.
> :lol:


So, while you are enjoying your shellfish, are you wearing mixed fiber clothing, untrimmed beards, and numerous tattoos?

Better than some 'nice parting gifts and a year's supply of Rice-a-Roni'... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Alta Grama (Apr 16, 2012)

I Have been following this thread with interest, waiting to see at least some token given to free speech and have to say I am appalled at the words and actions of many of the posters here.

You reminded me of little children: "You said a bad word and I'm telling my mommy on you." "You have to do what I say because I'm the boss." "You're a liar and you're going to get a spanking, nya, nya, nya."

You refuse to acknowledge there is ANY truth in ANYTHING joeysomma had to say and if that isn't close-minded I don't know what is. "I won't even bother to read that", "I won't even acknowledge that historical list of names." "I've never heard of such a thing, [therefore it can't exist]". Not to mention the personal insults to her mentality, motives etc. What a bunch of mob mentality bullies. How many of you were there against one? Including so-called fellow christians (lower case on purpose). I hope you look back when you are not so emotionally charged up and feel at least a little ashamed of yourselves.

But that is the way society has tipped the scales totally to the other side of bigotry. Win some decision for a minority and all of a sudden the opponents have no truth left in them. I am NOT saying LGBT hasn't a right to their choices but that should never nullify those who disagree.

I'm reminded of those who, out of fear and lack of understanding or desire to understand crowded together shouting "crucify him!"

I was once proud to be a member of KP, but no longer. This whole issue has torn apart more than you will ever acknowledge and I have no respect left for those of you who have acted so sanctimoniously, spouting that there is no other choice but the one you have made. It is a sad time when someone willingly stands by their beliefs and is treated in such a shameless manner.

I am only posting to state my opinion and will not open myself to the bullying tactics you have shown so if you want to badmouth me on this thread you will be speaking to someone who is not there.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Alta Grama said:


> I Have been following this thread with interest, waiting to see at least some token given to free speech and have to say I am appalled at the words and actions of many of the posters here.
> 
> You reminded me of little children: "You said a bad word and I'm telling my mommy on you." "You have to do what I say because I'm the boss." "You're a liar and you're going to get a spanking, nya, nya, nya."
> 
> ...


So sorry you are hit and run.

I cannot allow myself to accept bigoted and hurtful statements. Free speech should not be borderless. Any post that advocates harm (or genocide, certainly) should not be allowed. It also says more about the poster than the group defamed. I like Mrs. Somma. She has every right to spew her opinions. But I believe in human decency and will not sit quietly if racist or bigoted statements are posted on KP.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

Alta Gramma

I started this thread so I figure its fair for me to have a say in the kind of postings attached to the thread.
Saying:
- You find homosexuality personally distasteful - No problem
- Your religious beliefs condemn homosexuality as a sin - No problem
- You advocate treating LGBT people as criminals and subhumans - BIG problem because then you begin violating their civil rights. You want your civil rights respected. Remember the Golden Rule? Treat others as you would like to be treated. Joeysomma repeatedly crosses the line of acceptable conduct in the manner by which she expresses her opinion.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Heehee! My favorite head-scratcher in regards to Noah and his ark is how he got all those hulking carnivorous dinosaurs on board. The explanations are priceless: dinosaur eggs, baby dinosaurs, that T-Rexes were herbivores in those days etc etc.


Sr Mary Eloise, 2nd grade, 1965.

The Monsignor was visiting our classroom, putting us through our paces, Baltimore Catechism, etc., First Communion was right around the corner.

Everything would have been okay for everyone if he had just said goodbye and left the room, but no...

Are there any questions?

Of course there were questions. A room full of 7 yr olds want to know everything.

One boy wanted to know if the ark smelled like the zoo and how did they get all that poop out of there.

Good questions.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

Alta Grama said:


> I Have been following this thread with interest, waiting to see at least some token given to free speech and have to say I am appalled at the words and actions of many of the posters here.
> 
> .......................snip.................
> 
> I am only posting to state my opinion and will not open myself to the bullying tactics you have shown so if you want to badmouth me on this thread you will be speaking to someone who is not there.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~
With a hearty 'Heigh Ho Silver...
Whoosh... a flounce of crinolines and the horse she rode in on ride off into the sunset, on the saddle of righteousness, and the spurs of indignation...

Did you miss the part where she told us we were going to hell and the endless diatribe of cut and paste hate she sends ?
Or the self righteous persecution and whining when someone challenges her on her mindless drivel?

But then, you won't be reading this, since you aren't here.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

CayPeaGee said:


> Sweetie, you're confusing sexual identity with sexuality, two very different things.
> 
> But I will say that straight people have done a great job of destroying marriage all by themselves.


Yep, gay marriage destroys the sanctity of their 3rd, 4th, 5th, 56 hour, barely got out the church door before serving papers, marriages.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> So sorry you are hit and run.
> 
> I cannot allow myself to accept bigoted and hurtful statements. Free speech should not be borderless. Any post that advocates harm (or genocide, certainly) should not be allowed. It also says more about the poster than the group defamed. I like Mrs. Somma. She has every right to spew her opinions. But I believe in human decency and will not sit quietly if racist or bigoted statements are posted on KP.


Thanks for posting your rely to the other poster. Honestly, I really think she needs to direct these comments to the posters, and one in particular, who are always posting hurtful statements. You know the one to whom I refer. Boy did she rip in to me today. She posted


> I'll add, you are a terrible liar. So next time you attempt to lie to or about me or attempt to insult or demean me, expect me to once again repeat the truth.
> 
> In closing, it would be nice if you could attempt to be nice for a change. I imagine everyone on KP would prefer to enjoy pleasant threads and discussion without the constant upheaval by ugly posters.


 but I did not see this poster taking her to task for these horrible remarks. Her rant is one sided. She said not to post a reply because she will not be here to read it. Honestly, do you believe that? She will be lurking here to read what say when they reply to her one sided nasty comments. She is a bully and she is only showing her bias.

Yes, I am upset at being called terrible liar who insults and demeans, or being called an ugly poster who causes upheaval. But then I honestly believe she knows she causes distress to people when she says these things. I think she delights in causing distress to others. She knows that others have faced a lot of stress in their lives and when they are called these horrid names it can throw them back into that stressful place. She really is just a bully, and I believe this poster is also a biased bully.

Sorry, but I am extremely upset at the moment but I shall not defend myself against the rants from the Queen of Hearts. That will only add fuel to her fire.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

How do you know her diatribe was directed at you? I thought it was a group target. Please do not be upset. This is a virtual experience.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> but I did not see this poster taking her to task for these horrible remarks. Her rant is one sided. She said not to post a reply because she will not be here to read it. Honestly, do you believe that? She will be lurking here to read what say when they reply to her one sided nasty comments. She is a bully and she is only showing her bias.
> 
> Yes, I am upset at being called terrible liar who insults and demeans, or being called an ugly poster who causes upheaval. But then I honestly believe she knows she causes distress to people when she says these things. I think she delights in causing distress to others. She knows that others have faced a lot of stress in their lives and when they are called these horrid names it can throw them back into that stressful place. She really is just a bully, and I believe this poster is also a biased bully.
> 
> Sorry, but I am extremely upset at the moment but I shall not defend myself against the rants from the Queen of Hearts. That will only add fuel to her fire.


I'm so sorry you're upset, Evie. Please don't take it to heart...given You Know Who's character, it would be a far greater insult if she _praised_ you.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> How do you know her diatribe was directed at you? I thought it was a group target. Please do not be upset. This is a virtual experience.


More like a virtual nightmare.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> but I did not see this poster taking her to task for these horrible remarks. Her rant is one sided. She said not to post a reply because she will not be here to read it. Honestly, do you believe that? She will be lurking here to read what say when they reply to her one sided nasty comments. She is a bully and she is only showing her bias.
> 
> Yes, I am upset at being called terrible liar who insults and demeans, or being called an ugly poster who causes upheaval. But then I honestly believe she knows she causes distress to people when she says these things. I think she delights in causing distress to others. She knows that others have faced a lot of stress in their lives and when they are called these horrid names it can throw them back into that stressful place. She really is just a bully, and I believe this poster is also a biased bully.
> 
> Sorry, but I am extremely upset at the moment but *I shall not defend myself against the rants* from the Queen of Hearts. That will only add fuel to her fire.


Uh, Eve, you just did.

Albeit you defended yourself on this thread which is different from the one where you posted ugliness and did YOUR bullying. Please stop.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> but I did not see this poster taking her to task for these horrible remarks. Her rant is one sided. She said not to post a reply because she will not be here to read it. Honestly, do you believe that? She will be lurking here to read what say when they reply to her one sided nasty comments. She is a bully and she is only showing her bias.
> 
> Yes, I am upset at being called terrible liar who insults and demeans, or being called an ugly poster who causes upheaval. But then I honestly believe she knows she causes distress to people when she says these things. I think she delights in causing distress to others. She knows that others have faced a lot of stress in their lives and when they are called these horrid names it can throw them back into that stressful place. She really is just a bully, and I believe this poster is also a biased bully.
> 
> Sorry, but I am extremely upset at the moment but I shall not defend myself against the rants from the Queen of Hearts. That will only add fuel to her fire.


EveMCooke
upset because of her? Kidding, right? Whatever she fires from her Cannon has no impact on me and I hope you can take that position as well.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Uh, Eve, you just did.
> 
> Albeit you defended yourself on this thread which is different from the one where you posted ugliness and did YOUR bullying. Please stop.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

mojave said:


> For those who consider gay marriage to be a solely political issue, perhaps one day you will come to a broader understanding of the issue.
> It is about loving and living with someone for 50+ years and in the final days of your lover's life being denied the right to visit him/her in the hospital because you are not "family". Then being denied access to the funeral and even knowledge of the gravesite location.
> In a divorce, it is being denied custody and visitation rights to your children because you are gay, not because you are a poor parent.
> Strong, healthy families, where children are loved and lovingly guided to become self confident adults, lead to a strong, healthy society. Parental gender or sexual orientation does not qualify or disqualify a person to be a parent. Positive self-image, patience, emotional control, a willingness to sacrifice personal gain for the benefit of another are traits needed to be a good parent. Traits found in females and males, traits found in heterosexuals and homosexuals.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

News today: Attorney General extends federal benefits to married same-sex couples and Jimmy Carter announces that he believes Jesus would approve of gay couples. What a day!


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> You are not interested in what the Gay Agenda has been doing to destroy our Country? People on here won't believe me. I thought they might see something in what was predicted 7 years ago. As I have said before they are not interested in equal marriage they want to destroy marriage.


I suggest you print your messages. Take them with you at your next doctor visit. Your psychiatrist will then be able to diagnose you and make a treatment plan. Whatever you're doing now isn't working.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Thank Heavens for the USSC standing up for the LGBS! Now if we can 'vote down' the NRA.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Wow...thumbs up to Facebook. I just had a altercation with one of my Facebook "friends"--she called Michelle Obama a baboon and, when I objected, snarled that I'd better not call her a racist because "that's what she [Michelle] looks like!" Five seconds later I heard a beep, the dialogue disappeared, and then "friend" and her entire Facebook page vanished!


There's a topic on KP about a beautiful gorilla. Several people made comments that they thought he looks like James Earl Jones.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Something for you to think about!


That's nice.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Noah was an ET. He sent his crew to collect DNA from each animal. The ark was the ET lab where all the samples were stored. The lab was on the mothership far removed from the flood.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> Regarding your 2nd option, most of this group of liberals have stated the same many times. Yet that is the one thing they just DON'T do. One has to wonder why? I submit it is because they get enjoyment out of the attack, especially the ones that join in the attack afterwards. It's like a gang rape, where everyone wants a turn.


Bless your little heart.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Good for them! . :thumbdown:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

http://weeklysift.com/2015/07/06/you-dont-have-to-hate-anybody-to-be-a-bigot/

A very thoughtful and accurate article. Long, but worth reading the whole thing.

I agree, bigots don't necessarily hate anyone, hate and bigotry are not one and the same.


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## Loistec (Jan 25, 2011)

DGreen said:


> http://weeklysift.com/2015/07/06/you-dont-have-to-hate-anybody-to-be-a-bigot/
> 
> A very thoughtful and accurate article. Long, but worth reading the whole thing.
> 
> I agree, bigots don't necessarily hate anyone, hate and bigotry are not one and the same.


Very good article, thank you!


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> http://weeklysift.com/2015/07/06/you-dont-have-to-hate-anybody-to-be-a-bigot/
> 
> A very thoughtful and accurate article. Long, but worth reading the whole thing.
> 
> I agree, bigots don't necessarily hate anyone, hate and bigotry are not one and the same.


DGreen
Thank you very much. It is well worth reading and that I shall do again.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


>


it never ends.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

DGreen said:


> http://weeklysift.com/2015/07/06/you-dont-have-to-hate-anybody-to-be-a-bigot/
> 
> A very thoughtful and accurate article. Long, but worth reading the whole thing.
> 
> I agree, bigots don't necessarily hate anyone, hate and bigotry are not one and the same.


~~~~~~~~~~~

Wow. I have just read the first few paragraphs and this triggers so many memories, and will have to get back to it later.

My parents couldn't get married in Texas in 1957 because my father was white. She and others were called "high yellow", and it all went back to the "one drop rule". No way she could pass for white.

We have come a long way, and there is a long road ahead. There are good people everywhere, and it is getting better.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

A black friend and a cousin of mine married a few months ago. They are so lucky to have each other; We're all delighted. :thumbup: :-D


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

mmorris said:


> A black friend and a cousin of mine married a few months ago. They are so lucky to have each other; We're all delighted. :thumbup: :-D


In 2012, my grandson married a Muslim young lady whose grandparents emigrated from Africa.

Their baby is 15 months old and absolutely gorgeous. All dimples and tiny ringlets. Slightly darker complexion than my baby pictures, but she resembles me at that age.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Dangrktty said:


> ~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> Wow. I have just read the first few paragraphs and this triggers so many memories, and will have to get back to it later.
> 
> ...


Dangrktty
much is to be done to bring about changes but I have sooo much faith in the young. They will do so much better than their ancestors.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Dangrktty
> much is to be done to bring about changes but I have sooo much faith in the young. They will do so much better than their ancestors.


And I agree with you. However, it seems some in the new topic: "You and I are members....." disagree and rather vehemently as well.


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## Neenar (Oct 9, 2011)

I sometimes wish there were like and dislike buttons on KP so many of you and your views restore my faith in humanity.

As a bi-sexual, mother of three who has had relationships with both men and women and is currently engaged to a wonderful man who is the centre of my universe, I for one am glad that my children and grand children have the right to marry whom ever they fall in love with. Gay, straight, black, white, christian, muslim or whatever. As long as they are happy that is all that matters.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Neenar said:


> I sometimes wish there were like and dislike buttons on KP so many of you and your views restore my faith in humanity.
> 
> As a bi-sexual, mother of three who has had relationships with both men and women and is currently engaged to a wonderful man who is the centre of my universe, I for one am glad that my children and grand children have the right to marry whom ever they fall in love with. Gay, straight, black, white, christian, muslim or whatever. As long as they are happy that is all that matters.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Congratulations on your engagement!


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Neenar said:


> I sometimes wish there were like and dislike buttons on KP so many of you and your views restore my faith in humanity.
> 
> As a bi-sexual, mother of three who has had relationships with both men and women and is currently engaged to a wonderful man who is the centre of my universe, I for one am glad that my children and grand children have the right to marry whom ever they fall in love with. Gay, straight, black, white, christian, muslim or whatever. As long as they are happy that is all that matters.


 :thumbup:


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## Loistec (Jan 25, 2011)

This is an interesting article written by a "progressive" author about the issue of gay marriage for those christians who oppose it.

http://tobingrant.religionnews.com/2015/07/03/40-questions-for-christians-who-oppose-marr...


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## Medieval Reenactor (Sep 3, 2013)

Loistec said:


> This is an interesting article written by a "progressive" author about the issue of gay marriage for those christians who oppose it.
> 
> http://tobingrant.religionnews.com/2015/07/03/40-questions-for-christians-who-oppose-marr...


Very thought-provoking article. I'm wondering how many of those so vociferously condemning same-sex marriage will actually read it or seriously think about the questions?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Medieval Reenactor said:


> Very thought-provoking article. I'm wondering how many of those so vociferously condemning same-sex marriage will actually read it or seriously think about the questions?


If you read the comments after the article you will have your answer.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Neenar said:


> I sometimes wish there were like and dislike buttons on KP so many of you and your views restore my faith in humanity.
> 
> As a bi-sexual, mother of three who has had relationships with both men and women and is currently engaged to a wonderful man who is the centre of my universe, I for one am glad that my children and grand children have the right to marry whom ever they fall in love with. Gay, straight, black, white, christian, muslim or whatever. As long as they are happy that is all that matters.


Congratulations on your engagement! Much happiness to the both of you.


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## Loistec (Jan 25, 2011)

The discussion of homosexuals and marriage is not just a western cultural issue, its going on in the Muslim world as well. We are all evolving.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/fathima-imra-nazeer/homosexuality-its-time-we_1_b_7810274.html?utm_hp_ref=religion


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