# Colour changer brother KRC 900 problems



## nuttynurse1153 (Sep 5, 2016)

Hi ladies/gents I have a Brother 965 + ribber
I am trying to knit a Multi colour rib pattern (in 2 colours first) or even just simple stripes to try out my colour changer, which was put aside until I learned the basics, (as advised by experienced knitters). Now, I re fitted my 4 way colour changer and followed every steps in the manual but still having the same problem = the colour changer does not pick up the yarns, when it does on rear occasions it just drags is along the bed and then drops it. 1st I tried just with stripes, same problem. I set knitter and ribber as instructed, I selected pattern and pushed DBJ on the machine. 2 weeks ago I spent days figure it out and today I've been on it since 7 a.m. reading and watching you tube but not getting anywhere. 
can anybody solve the mystery for me? Thank you.
Eva


----------



## randiejg (Oct 29, 2011)

Your carriage or sinker plate may not be seated properly, so that the yarn is not in the right position to feed into the hooks of the needles. I'd suggest taking the sinker plate off, take the carriage off the bed, and then put it back on, making sure it's well seated. Then put the color changer sinker plate on, and try just knitting stripes (no pattern, no electronics), just to see if the needles are catching the yarn and knitting.

If you get that far successfully, then take the next step and start with a simple DBJ pattern.


----------



## nuttynurse1153 (Sep 5, 2016)

Hi, Thank you very much for your reply, both carriages and sinker plate fitted correctly I can knit plain rib, no problem, perhaps this colour changer is not compatible with my machine? I really want to knit fair isle and motifs but hate those floats on the back. Very frustrating.
regards
Eva


----------



## jaysclark (Jan 26, 2013)

Have you got it set correctly? One screw hole is for the chunky machine and one is for the standard gauge


----------



## nuttynurse1153 (Sep 5, 2016)

Thank you for your reply, we did set it to the righyt hole, we tried both but it is now is set for standard machine but still , what am I missing? might be just one simple pressing of a button .
regards
Eva


----------



## Grethel (Oct 5, 2015)

I know what you are going through. It took me a while to get it right.
I want you to try this.

Double bed jacquard
Using every 4th needle on the ribber

Racking indicator 5
Half pitch H
Slide lever on 1

Arrange needles as follows 
KH 11111111111111111 (Every needle)
1ooo1ooo1ooo1ooo1 (Every 4th needle)

1. Place the carriage at the left side
2. Program the pattern ( 940, 930, 965I 910) - Variation key 7
3. Set the change Knob to KC11, knit 1 row left to right with main yarn
4. Push both part buttons of KH carriage, knit 1 row Right to left 
5. Change the yarn to contrast color, knit 2 rows
6. Change the yarn to main color, knit 2 rows
7. Repeat the above steps.
I hope this helps for a start.


----------



## Grethel (Oct 5, 2015)

I know what you are going through. It took me a while to get it right.
I want you to try this.

Double bed jacquard
Using every 4th needle on the ribber

Racking indicator 5
Half pitch H
Slide lever on 1

Arrange needles as follows 
KH 11111111111111111 (Every needle)
1ooo1ooo1ooo1ooo1 (Every 4th needle)

1. Place the carriage at the left side
2. Program the pattern ( 940, 930, 965I 910) - Variation key 7
3. Set the change Knob to KC11, knit 1 row left to right with main yarn
4. Push both part buttons of KH carriage, knit 1 row Right to left 
5. Change the yarn to contrast color, knit 2 rows
6. Change the yarn to main color, knit 2 rows
7. Repeat the above steps.
I hope this helps for a start.


----------



## Grethel (Oct 5, 2015)

I'm sorry the needle setup shifted. Lets try it again 

11111111111111
1ooo1ooo1ooo1

I'ti 14 needles on MB, 13 needles on Ribber


----------



## nuttynurse1153 (Sep 5, 2016)

Dear Grethel, You don't know how grateful I am to everybody trying to help me. I was in tears this afternoon as I cannot figure it out although following instructions from the book. They state I should use both the ribber and main bed on full needle set up , my carriages got stuck even on tension 8 , not to mention that dreaded colour changer when I finally knitted a couple of rows with force and strengths from my other half I had to manually feed in the yarn as the carriage just passed the yarn without picking it up, same thing I had to put the yarn back into its popper by hand. Please see photo when the carriage was passing from RIGHT to Left. I will try your settings, (I made a print-out of it), just have a nice cup of tea to calm my nerves, I've been at it since 8 a.m. The yarn guide is behind the yarn and will not pick it up. Maybe you can see what is going on.
regards and many thanks.
Eva


----------



## jaysclark (Jan 26, 2013)

Maybe your ribber yarn guide needs bending out a little to collect the yarn. Take the carriage to the left until you hear a click, then push the second colour button in

Also, uk 4 Ply is pretty thick to do full needle rib. I suggest 2 strands of 2/30 for each colour or some 2/3 ply


----------



## nuttynurse1153 (Sep 5, 2016)

HI, I did that but it does not make a sound of CLICK as it should, even though the Return Signal lever is sticking out but nothing touching it to make the clicking sound.


----------



## 30Knitter (Apr 9, 2012)

It looks as though you are not pushing your carriage far enough past the color changer for the colors to change properly. I have to put the lace rails on when I am knitting with my color changer. I also have to move my carriage past the color changer then change to the new color to picked up. If the yarn isn't in the coupler properly it won't knit properly.


----------



## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

Read the following that I put on here some time ago regarding DJ........
http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-258455-1.html

The top picture shows the different techniques for the above plus extra techniques........
http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-324248-1.html

Watch the following that Grethal was telling you to try.......
http://www.slideshare.net/lornahamiltonbrown/ladderback-jacquard

And please don't cry it is just a knitting machine and yarn, consider how lucky you are to be well enough to use it!


----------



## nuttynurse1153 (Sep 5, 2016)

Hi, thank you so much for your reply, I am back with further problems, I've been trying out my colour changer and knit on double bed jacquard, I've given instructions for Ladderback technique which as suggested I can use 3-4 ply yarn (which I have), so I picked out a pattern from computer and knitted away in 2 colours changed yarns every 2nd rows MC Rib button on computer pushed in but all I was getting is 3 to one ribs on both sides and stripes but no pattern. So I tried again as I never give up, well not yet anyway, I picked another design in 2 colours (which was my drawing and given the number 901,) a simple design of snow fakes, but this time I didn't press the MC rib button and knitted away hoping that maybe the MEMO screen will let me know when to change to the 2nd colour, the memo didn't show anything just the row counts and bleeped when the repeat is started. So I just changed to the 2 nd colour then 1st and so on, so I was getting the same thing 3 to 1 ribs with stripes and no design patterns. For the Ladderback I have done the following way: after knitting the ribbing I transferred all stit5ches to main bed, set pitch lever to H, then transferred every 4th stitch to ribber bed changed knob to KC set tension on both carriages ,selected pattern knitted one row which selected pattern row 1, set ribber to slip one row PR and both PART buttons pushed in. and started knitting.
what am I doing wrong again?
Best regards
Eva


----------



## 30Knitter (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok, here goes:
1. Knit to right selecting needles, on right side carriage is set as follows: KCII or cams under carriage turned off. Both part buttons pushed in. 
2. Ribber set up is as follows: PR levers on N, side levers = N, slide lever on I.
3. Knit to left and change color.
4. Knit to right and left. 
5. Repeat 3 and 4.

If you are using a built-in pattern, you will be told when to change colors. If however, you created your own pattern, you have to put the color changes in the pattern via the memo button otherwise you will not have color changes in the memo window. Also the instructions above should give stripes on the back. 

You may also want to install the fine needle bar. If you need more room (only on brother/knitking machines) push up on the side levers of the ribber and the machine will drop a little and give more space between machines.


----------



## Grethel (Oct 5, 2015)

OK, Let's try this. When you knit to the left, be sure the Carr. is passing the changer. Push the button with the yarn to be picked up, then slowly knit to the Right.
Again check the weight of the yarn you are using for double bed knitting. I always use fine lace yarn. Your ribber should be well adjusted.
Keep trying.


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

Let's narrow this down Eva. 

You're steaming ahead again ("I tried to knit my own drawing, a simple snowflake design") but it's still not clear if;

a) Your colour changer is working correctly,
b) Your ribber is adjusted correctly,
c) You have set things up correctly.

Let's look at a) Your colour changer, and just that one thing.

It might just be the angle of the photos you've taken, but it looks as though the sinker plate on your main bed carriage is sticking out slightly on the left. Can you retake it from a 'top down view' of the carriage as it looks when lined up with the colour changer?
Also, have you installed the yarn tension mast that comes with the colour changer? It has spaces for four yarns to be threaded. The colour changer won't work with the regular yarn mast at all.

Let us know on the above!

????


----------



## nuttynurse1153 (Sep 5, 2016)

Hi, and good morning to you, thanks again for your reply, here are some more photos for you to look at. Yet again I tried yesterday to knit one of the suggested designs in the computer (not my one), all settings were done as per manual and via people's advice and still ended up in tears my whole afternoon was ruined. I'll never going to learn this. I was however using the regular yarn holders, so I'll be changing it with the one that came with the colour changer. The reason I didn't change it to that one was because I was using only 2 colours, so obviously didn't work.
regards
Eva


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

nuttynurse1153 said:


> Hi, and good morning to you, thanks again for your reply, here are some more photos for you to look at. Yet again I tried yesterday to knit one of the suggested designs in the computer (not my one), all settings were done as per manual and via people's advice and still ended up in tears my whole afternoon was ruined. I'll never going to learn this. I was however using the regular yarn holders, so I'll be changing it with the one that came with the colour changer. The reason I didn't change it to that one was because I was using only 2 colours, so obviously didn't work.
> regards
> Eva


Oh Eva,
You do make me giggle. I had a feeling from your previous photos that you weren't using the correct yarn tension unit, due to the angle that the yarn was at.
All of your tears could have been saved if you had read the manual for the colour changer and followed it 'to a t'. 
The regular yarn mast allows the yarn to move all over the place. The colour feeder yarn mast has an extra tension slot to ensure the yarn enters the colour feeder at the same angle every time you pass the carriage by the colour changer!
Just to be sure, I've taken some photos for you of how you need to set up the yarn mast! Be sure to feed the yarn as shown, and take note that the yarn mast itself should be 'leaning backwards'!
Good luck!
Chris
X
P.S. Excuse the tip of my knitting room but I'm tidying up!

The first picture is how your yarn SHOULD NOT look! I took this with the regular yarn mast in place!

The second picture is how it should look once the correct yarn mast is in place!


----------



## nuttynurse1153 (Sep 5, 2016)

Oh Chris my dear friend, thanks again for the photos, the other reason I've taken the 4 colour yarn mast off is because it was moving all over the place and yarn was caught up and tangled up at each row. Looking at your photos mine was similar to picture number ONE. I'll set it up now and send photo for your approval. You are an angel that keeps me going.
Eva


----------



## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

Classixuk I hate to say this but.....although it is better to use the mast that came with the colour changer the ordinary mast will work with it. I have often used my normal mast if only knitting two colours. I have actually used two normal masts in the past for four colours, the first mast where it is always placed and the other in the left hole for the extra mast. You do however have to have the masts set up for double bed knitting which mine are all the while, and you do have to keep the tension on the yarn mast really tight so that the tension wire arches over like a rainbow when threaded.


----------



## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

Eva, when you put your ribber onto the machine did you check it was correctly set up? If you didn't then I suggest you look at the following. The first part that comes up is installing the ribber. Further down on the same link is the second part, adjusting the ribber.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/KNITTING-MACHINES-PART-1-INSTALLING-A-BROTHER-RIBBER-/10000000005838068/g.html


----------



## nuttynurse1153 (Sep 5, 2016)

ok, here I am again, with 4 colour yarn mast in place, only 2 colours at the moment as I don't want to push my luck. the 1st picture was taken without the flash gun t5hat is why it came out darker then the second one.Should I now cast on 1 x 1 rib?


----------



## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

You shouldn't do anything until you have tightened the tensions on the mast. As I said before the mast wires must arch over like a rainbow when threaded! And the first two colours (in this case the only two colours) should be threaded on the right side of the mast....it tells you that in the colour changers manual.


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

nuttynurse1153 said:


> ok, here I am again, with 4 colour yarn mast in place, only 2 colours at the moment as I don't want to push my luck. the 1st picture was taken without the flash gun t5hat is why it came out darker then the second one.Should I now cast on 1 x 1 rib?


Nope. When using the 4 colour changer mast, it's important that you thread the colours into the same mast hole as the feeder.
So the way you've set them up, you would use colour switch numbers 4 and 3.
If you'd like to use switch 2 and 1 you should feed the yarns through tension mast 2 and 1.
As you look at the machine, the tension mast on the far right feeds switch number 1. The next tension mast to the left feeds switch number 2 and so on.

Once you've set that up properly, cast on for a 1x1 rib. Knit 10 rows in one colour. Then change colours carefully and knit another 10 rows.
Then change back to your first colour and Knit 4 rows, followed by 4 rows in second colour.
Then do 2 rows of each colour.
Don't use any patterning yet!
Photograph the results
Cx


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

susieknitter said:


> You shouldn't do anything until you have tightened the tensions on the mast. As I said before the mast wires must arch over like a rainbow when threaded! And the first two colours (in this case the only two colours) should be threaded on the right side of the mast....it tells you that in the colour changers manual.


This ^^^^

Very important!

I like the way Susie has described it too!

Cx


----------



## nuttynurse1153 (Sep 5, 2016)

Hi, I adjusted the ribber bed needles opposite each other and also gap between needles snug but not lifting, please see proof I am a good girl do everything I was told LOL, I am getting on with next task.


----------



## nuttynurse1153 (Sep 5, 2016)

I'm back task completed,


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

nuttynurse1153 said:


> I'm back task completed,


How fabulous!

So I take it your colour changer is working properly now?

Has that dried your tears? :sm02:

If everything went OK, choose one of the simple 2 colour patterns that are designed for use with the KRC changer (it's a small section towards the back of the book) and program the machine to knit it.

Follow the instructions (I believe Susie has detailed them earlier in the thread) very carefully, one step at a time.

If you encounter a problem, stop, take a photo and detail what step you were at when the problem occurred :sm24:

Chris
X


----------



## nuttynurse1153 (Sep 5, 2016)

I have taken a big breath and my Prozac (joke) and try again, after so many failures it makes me worried. I am looking at Stitch world, but they only have a couple of patterns for KRC page 124 & 125 they are more than 2 colours, can I pick any from the Fair isle 2 colours ie: number 17 ?


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

nuttynurse1153 said:


> I have taken a big breath and my Prozac (joke) and try again, after so many failures it makes me worried. I am looking at Stitch world, but they only have a couple of patterns for KRC page 124 & 125 they are more than 2 colours, can I pick any from the Fair isle 2 colours ie: number 17 ?


Nope! Otherwise I would have said! 
:sm09:

Use pattern 528 and only knit it in 2 colours.

That means change colours every 2 rows


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

susieknitter said:


> Classixuk I hate to say this but.....although it is better to use the mast that came with the colour changer the ordinary mast will work with it. I have often used my normal mast if only knitting two colours. I have actually used two normal masts in the past for four colours, the first mast where it is always placed and the other in the left hole for the extra mast. You do however have to have the masts set up for double bed knitting which mine are all the while, and you do have to keep the tension on the yarn mast really tight so that the tension wire arches over like a rainbow when threaded.


Hi there, I also use my regular km masts this way...
Also, getting stripes when you expect a DJ pattern is typical for starting on the wrong RC. Are you attempting to knit a pattern you loaded in your machine with the image2track software?


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

Yes you can knit #17 as DJ just turn on variable for it


----------



## nuttynurse1153 (Sep 5, 2016)

Chris, I am hopeless, I went as far as 10th row, then as usual the same thing happened please see photos.
settings PR & PR on both side of rib carriage, KC on main carriage and LiLi on both side.
eva


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

KateWood said:


> Yes you can knit #17 as DJ just turn on variable for it


Kate, please don't tell Eva that. She tends to introduce 'variables' of her own that are hard enough to decipher! :sm02:

Soon we'll be deciphering 'variables on top of variables'

:sm02: :sm02: :sm02:


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

nuttynurse1153 said:


> Chris, I am hopeless, I went as far as 10th row, then as usual the same thing happened please see photos.
> settings PR & PR on both side of rib carriage, KC on main carriage and LiLi on both side.
> eva


So it knitted 9 rows OK?

Tell me Eva, do you have an odd number of needles in work on the ribber?

The Birdseye backing using the Lili buttons needs an even number of needles on the ribber.

What has happened to you sounds as if you've been using an odd number of needles.

Can you forget about Birdseye for now and just try a regular striped backing jacquard?


----------



## nuttynurse1153 (Sep 5, 2016)

I've had 21 working needles on both bed Chris, for regular striped backing do I have all the needles working on the main carriage?


----------



## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

I don't understand for one minute what you are trying to do. You are showing pictures of a single rib set up, Chris is asking you if you have a odd number of needles in work on the ribber and is referring to Birds Eye DJ, what the heck are you doing?


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

nuttynurse1153 said:


> I've had 21 working needles on both bed Chris, for regular striped backing do I have all the needles working on the main carriage?


21 needles on both beds? That was your problem. Impossible settings for Birdseye!

For striped backing, follow the needle rule.

Set your carriages like the photos below.

Do you have the ribber manual Eva? It's a small, really clearly laid out, very quick to read instructional manual. :sm17:

I'll be back later on tonight. Hopefully you will make some progress?


----------



## nuttynurse1153 (Sep 5, 2016)

Hi, I wish I knew myself, as I'm getting more and more confused every minute. I do try to knit DBJ in 2 colours to start with. I started off just a 1 x rib on both beds, then I picked a design number 528, and pressed the MC RIB button and the variation key number 7 (as was suggested by somebody I can'
t remember who) and started to knit away but the yarn got tangled up and dragged it along the knitting bed. The needles at that point were still in 1 x 1 rib setting, as I thought I will have to keep that setting. Thank everybody for their help.
regards
Eva


----------



## nuttynurse1153 (Sep 5, 2016)

:sm12: :sm16:


----------



## jaysclark (Jan 26, 2013)

To do dbj you usually do full needle rib, i.e. All needles in work on both beds, not 1x1 set up


----------



## nuttynurse1153 (Sep 5, 2016)

I am sorry for all the stupid questions, and for wasting your precious time, it was very nice of you ladies to help me, thank you for your time and effort. I'll have to figure it out myself or maybe just sell the machine before I break it by trying too hard.
regards
Eva


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

Previously it was suggested that you try to knit dj with a ladder back as the yarn you were knitting was too heavy for full needle rib.
Yes you can knit dj with a 1x1, 1x2,3,4 or wider rib but not with the lili, every other needle function, selected on your kr carriage.
If you want to knit dj with a birdseye backing, you need an even number of needles in a full needle rib set up on the kr & the lili buttons engaged after you select your pattern needles and when you release the pattern for knitting. Plus a fine yarn gauge of about 3000 yards per pound or thinner. I can knit it nicely with double stranded 2/24 others use double stranded 2/30. What type of DJ are you trying to knit?


----------



## nuttynurse1153 (Sep 5, 2016)

Hi Kate, I would like to knit two to 3 colour jacquards eventually my own designs. I have a few already in the computer but not sure if they would knit, that's the other thing I need to learn, I know how to program the pattern but that's all. So I was going to try a pattern from Stitch world. You are right on the ladderback , you can see what is going on with me, I try all sorts because I just want to knit something, anything that I can say "I made that" it can be a dishcloth but it was knitted by me and knitted without the dreaded floats at the back of it. I'll try again in the morning, unfortunately I only have 1 cone of thin yarn I think it's 2 or 3 ply (I've got it from ebay, and one thread yarn which is very thin the others 3-4 ply.So birds eye will be out of the question. Should I attempt the ladderback again? but I failed miserably yesterday.


----------



## Grethel (Oct 5, 2015)

I'm very happy for you. I believe in perseverance. Try try until you succeed


----------



## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

Eva the following video shows how to do Birds Eye backed DJ. If you know how to program the pattern into your 965.....which is different to programming the 950i in the video.....then following the rest of this video will help you.


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

Hi Eva,

I'm going to be direct with you. It's very late, so I'm a bit tired and grumpy. If I weren't so tired, I'd probably edit this and save it until the morning, but I'm going to just 'say it as I see it' in the hopes it brings you closer to 2/3 colour jacquard.

Please don't read this and feel I'm angry or upset with you. I just feel I've been a little too kind and supportive with my help. So this is me getting tough! 

Tonight, I read that you said you just want to be proud of just one thing you have knitted ... even a dish-cloth!

Here's a quote from a snippet of a post I made to you a week ago when you were saying the same thing...and having the same problems.



classixuk said:


> Hi Eva,
> ....
> For the sake of your sanity, and probably ours, can you test out all the components of your single bed machine thoroughly first?
> 
> ...


I will give you a thumbs up and acknowledgement for trying the first part. You ended up with some beautiful samples. You even discovered that your lace carriage was faulty.

And then, I suggested that while you awaited your lace carriage to be repaired/replaced, you try making your first single bed garment? You did. And we were all blown away! A doggy coat! http://static.knittingparadise.com/upload/2016/9/30/t1-312289-dsc_0011.jpg[img]

So to hear you say you just want to make something you can feel proud of is kind of like a kick in the teeth. You already did that, and you did it on your own, albeit after much encouragement from many of us!

But what happened to the second part? The part in bold?

Instead of photos of successful ribs and multi-colour ribs (which would have prepared you perfectly for DBJ as well as understanding how each method of ribbing works, and how to transfer between each), I came back after a short bout of cold to find you'd 'advanced yourself' to your ultimate goal of DBJ...except you hadn't, because what you had advanced to was yet more problems, yet more people trying to diagnose a problem that you couldn't explain clearly, and you not getting the results you needed...no matter what.

You were doing so well...you were on your way. I just don't get why you couldn't stick to the plan and make those multi colour ribs?

If you had of done that, with the knowledge you gained, you wouldn't have experienced or written this today:

[quote=nuttynurse1153]Hi, I wish I knew myself, as I'm getting more and more confused every minute. I do try to knit DBJ in 2 colours to start with. I started off just a 1 x rib on both beds...and started to knit away but the yarn got tangled up and dragged it along the knitting bed. The needles at that point were still in 1 x 1 rib setting, as I thought I will have to keep that setting...[/quote]

and you would never have even done this, never mind written it:

[quote=nuttynurse1153]...I've had [b]21 working needles on both bed[/b]...[b]and LiLi on both side[/b]...I went as far as 10th row, then as usual the same thing happened please see photos.

eva[/quote]

I can confidently say that it's not your equipment. It's you Eva. You are so quick to blame the yarn, the machine, the colour changer etc. Yet when we tested it properly (one step at a time, following the manufacturer intsructions) each component has worked. We discovered the lace carriage was broken by actually testing it, methodically. Everything else seems to be fine.

[i]Today, you tried to do a DBJ with LiLi buttons on a 1x1 rib over 21 needles.[/i]

I do hope you come back to the above sentence in 4 weeks time when you know better, and laugh at how crazy it reads! But you actually did it! :sm06: :sm09:

If you want to crack this once and for all, I'm going to suggest 2 different routes. Choose the one that's best for you and your budget!

[i]Pre-Route Requirement (for both routes)[/i]:
Quit with the tears and the self defeating attitude. It will get you nowhere. Hurricane Matthew is something to cry about. A dropped stitch is not. So man up!

[i]Route 1:[/i] Sell your Brother and buy a Passap.

Seriously. You are more obsessed with knitting floatless DBJ than anything else, to the point you frustrate yourself and everybody trying to help you. If DBJ is what really 'floats your boat' (excuse the pun) you should just give in and buy a Passap again. Why try fruitlessly teaching your dog to miaow, when a cat does it from the start?

You had a Passap, and everything you say and do suggests to me that you are still thinking like a Passap owner. I own both (as many here do) so we are allowed to say such things. LOL.

Passap DBJ is easy. Very easy. No Brother DBJ will ever meet the ease, quality and variety of Passap DBJ. 
Even if you master Brother DBJ techniques, you will still have the problem of weights distorting the work/stitches and having to press that damn colur change button every 2 rows (unless you get a very rare 970)! Passap allows you to select your pattern (or import your own) and then select the type of DBJ you'd like, and then simply knit from left to right. It even changes the colour automatically every 2 rows. It's the King of DBJ (and double bed tuck I might add)! There's a reason they're called the Rolls Royce of knitting machines.

[i]Route 2:[/i] Give up the idea of getting Passap DBJ results on a Brother machine, and embrace it for what it does well.

The Brother machine is a King of Single Bed Knitting. It can do more with tuck-stitch, fairisle and slip stitch on one bed than a Passap ever could. It can weave and make lace too. It can even do 200 colour intarsia if you demand it! Passap can't do any of this so easily, or quickly, or in most cases, at all! The Brother machine includes an accessory called a ribber that allows you to knit in DBJ if you insist, but it will never be the DBJ that you remember from your Passap days. Ever! And when it comes remotely close, it will only be with very fine yarns such as industrial 2/30 double stranded...certainly not 3 and 4 ply like a Passap...the needles are too close together to knit DBJ in any thicker yarns.
And before you ask, the answer is no. I really don't think you'd be happy with 'ladder-back' jacquard. I base that assumption from what I've learned about your choices regarding anything 'float-like' so far. Floats with 'knots' in them? You'd probably cry for days!

^^^So them there is your choices.

Have a really good think about it.

Chris
xx


----------



## 30Knitter (Apr 9, 2012)

You can pick almost any fairisle and use the krc button (it sets the pattern for the color changer).


----------



## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

I am sorry Chris but I can't agree with you regarding your following statement......

Quote; Passap DBJ is easy. Very easy. No Brother DBJ will ever meet the ease, quality and variety of Passap DBJ.
Even if you master Brother DBJ techniques, you will still have the problem of weights distorting the work/stitches and having to press that damn colur change button every 2 rows (unless you get a very rare 970)! Passap allows you to select your pattern (or import your own) and then select the type of DBJ you'd like, and then simply knit from left to right. It even changes the colour automatically every 2 rows. It's the King of DBJ (and double bed tuck I might add)! There's a reason they're called the Rolls Royce of knitting machines. End of Quote. 

I owned a Pfaff E6000 (the same as a Passap E6000, just named differently for marketing purposes) and I hated it. I know others love them, and I know they were called the Rolls Royce of machines, (very good marketing ploy) but I found mine a pain in the butt.

All of the DJ techniques that I have done on Brother and Silver Reed machines are in my opinion as good as those done on a Passap. My work isn't distorted by weights at all. I will also add that although I own 2 Brother 970's I still have to press the damn colour changer button but I don't find this a problem. In fact I found it more of a problem to pick up the damn yarn pegs on the Pfaff than I have ever done pressing a button on my Brother colour changer.

You can buy a Brother colour changer for a KH970 that is automatic, and the Silver Reed colour changers will automatically swap between two colours, but I am happy pressing buttons. When you get into the rhythm of doing it then you become automatic. 

Can I ask if you did your pictured DJ piece with the Dog on it on your Passap or your Brother 950i?
You have stated that you have learned to do DJ within the last thee months, have you done it on both makes of machine?
I have never knitted DJ (other than Ladder backed) in 4py on any machine. I have always considered that using finer yarns the thickness of fabric is more than enough. The only time I tried a lot thicker yarn the fabric was more like cardboard and I didn't like it at all. 

I know my opinion on different machines will not be appreciate by some (particularly owners of Passaps) but I have seen some amazing pieces of work done on different makes of old punch card machines.....look at the work done by Lorna Hamilton Brown MBE. 

There was a lady on another forum that did a bedspread with a David Bowie's photo on it, and I am saying photo because that is exactly what it looked like, an extremely good photo at that. I am not 100% sure but I think it was done on a Brother machine.

Jaysclarke, a member of this forum, has done some brilliant DJ on her Brother machine. 

Kate Wood on here (although she doesn't post pics that often) is a whizz on double bed work on a Brother. 

Anne and many others on here, and on other forums, use Brother machines and all of their work I have also greatly admired.

There are other machine knitters who use different makes of machine that astound me with what they achieve on them.

I guess what I am trying to convey is......it isn't the machine that the knitter is using that counts....it is the ability of the knitter.
Sue.


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

susieknitter said:


> I am sorry Chris but I can't agree with you regarding your following statement......
> 
> (snip)
> 
> ...


Gosh Sue, I'm so glad I said...



classixuk said:


> ...The Brother machine is a King of Single Bed Knitting. It can do more with tuck-stitch, fairisle and slip stitch on one bed than a Passap ever could. It can weave and make lace too. It can even do 200 colour intarsia if you demand it! Passap can't do any of this so easily, or quickly, or in most cases, at all!...


...otherwise you might really have given me a bollocking! lol.

You raise many excellent points, but once again it's been a long day and I'm knackered.

To make matters worse, I spent about 3 hours converting a Russian hand knitting chart to one suitable for machine knitting cables combined with garter stitch, only to forget to press save, and I had to rechart the entire thing all over again. You'll be happy to know that it was for use on my Brother 950i though, as the Passap wouldn't handle it.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree about Passap VS Brother. I see them as 2 unique, but very useful tools. Each shines in a different area. You didn't get on with your Passap, so you are bound to be slightly biased against it, whereas I would say that I wouldn't be without either machine. It's all, as you say at the end of your post, not the machine that the knitter is using, but the ability of the knitter who is using it.

OK, before I go to bed, let me quickly scan to see if there were any other major points...



> My work isn't distorted by weights at all.


But we both know, as we both work on Brothers, that's because we keep moving the weights up to prevent distortion. Careful placement of weights, and remembering to adjust them constantly, minimises the problem of distortion. That's agreed. Whereas my argument to Eva was that if she goes back to a Passap, that's one less thing she has 'to learn' - and also, very importantly I feel in her case, one less 'variable' that can go wrong.



> In fact I found it more of a problem to pick up the damn yarn pegs on the Pfaff


Yarn pegs? I don't know what this means?



> You can buy a Brother colour changer for a KH970


I mentioned this to Eva in my post. I'll also add, it looks very advanced and I'd love to own one!



> Can I ask if you did your pictured DJ piece with the Dog on it on your Passap or your Brother 950i?


The Passap.

It was over 1800 rows of 2 colour DBJ fantasy jaquard tuck.

If I had used the Brother, it a) wouldn't have been as wide, and b) would have meant 900 presses of a button just to change colour at the end of each 2 rows, (900 button presses!!), and c) would have meant stopping to move weights up the edge stitches almost 100 times (it was knitted with just one strand on 2/30 for each colour), and d) would have meant taking all the weights off every time I needed to rest, only to rehang them again when I was ready to work.

I didn't have to do any of that with the Passap. I'm guessing you can see why I say it wins hands down at DBJ work. I'm not a huge fanboy though...I do admit that it's inferior with everything else...apart from double bed tuck! I must add that...it's the king of double bed tuck fabric...no other machine can do the same stitches...even you would admit that! You cannot tuck 10 times over a group of 3 needles with weighted knitting! 



> You have stated that you have learned to do DJ within the last thee months, have you done it on both makes of machine?


Yes. I've done it on both, hence me trying to help out Eva in this thread when I spotted beginner mistakes.



> There was a lady on another forum that did a bedspread with a David Bowie's photo on it, and I am saying photo because that is exactly what it looked like, an extremely good photo at that. I am not 100% sure but I think it was done on a Brother machine.


It was done with Img2Track. I use it with both of my machines too. It's a fabulous piece of software.

To sum it up though, I notice that you mentioned lots of other's names and how good their work is on their Brother machines, and I'll confirm that hasn't been in any doubt in my mind. Your own work is amazing, and I've told you that privately as well as on here.

Knitted on a Brother doesn't mean better than, worse than, or 'anything else than' if it would have been knitted on a Passap, or vice versa in my eyes.

Eva is obviously struggling though, and her main goal seems to be knitting DBJ. Until I suggested it, she had no interest in any of the other things a Brother could also offer, such as lace, intarsia, weaving, or even the 'dreaded fair-isle with floats' which seems to be her nightmare.

Pages and pages have gone by.

I personally love the 'dreaded fair-isle with floats', as I love designing patterns that work with it, instead of blaming the machine for something the technique was never designed to solve. But Eva clearly doesn't want to do that. She has made it clear to us all. She wants floatless fair-isle, even if it's in a dish-cloth! That was her whole point in purchasing a machine again after so many years.

She once had a Passap, and we are trying to force her to learn the Brother way. I don't think she got into this to learn a new way. It's driving her nuts, and us too.

If she gets a Passap, she can go back to inputting her design number, then inputting her technique number for one of the countless double bed jacquard techniques (some of which can't even be achieved on a Japanese machine), and simply knit from left to right. And what's more, I believe she (and as a guy, I will definitely say her husband!) will be much happier all around.

If we took away your Brothers, and forced you to learn Passap, would you still enjoy machine knitting? 

I just want the woman to be happy.

Cx


----------



## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

Chris I don't have to learn how to use a Passap.......I can use one. I just find find them not as user friendly as I do Brother machines.


----------



## nuttynurse1153 (Sep 5, 2016)

Good morning everyone, I woke up in relatively happy mood until I read the last posting. I feel I am being ridiculed all across the forum and while I am still around (probably the last time), I'd like to clarify a few points raised in the last entry. My reason for buying a Brother 965 was NOT for "just" producing DJB-s without floats, floats I found an obstacle which I wanted to overcome for obvious reasons ie:little hands and dog paws can get caught in them. I don't think I've never blamed the machine if you look back I was putting myself down for my slow learning. Perhaps you need to look back when you were a beginner. My reason for buying a knitting machine was because I enjoyed knitting and have been creating many items knitted by hand also, and because I used to owe a knitting machine, and because I have more time now that I'm working part time only. I have already draw designs which I intended to knit (once I learn how to use the machine). Whilst I am very appreciative towards all those trying to help me, I am unhappy about people keep mentioning the "Variable" . Let me tell you again that while I was struggling to knit DJB's I was advised to press number 7 variable, so I did, since then I am the laughing stock of the forum, not a nice feeling.-- If you read my profile you'll see that I used to design patterns for jersey fabrics, and I think I am still creative, therefore I am interested other techniques beside DJB. Chris has given me certain tasks to follow, which I did to the last one, apart from the lace as I still haven't received the new one. I have knitted, tuck, slip 2 colour fairisle (I knitted a doggy jacket and posted it online), thread lace, done 1x1,2x2 full, fishermans rib, and have been following tutorials on youtube, so I am interested in all techniques.- I am sorry if I driven you nuts and many thanks for those who helped me get this far. As for my husband, he is supportive as anyone can be he does not find me annoying.
Eva


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

Hi Chris? How many different DJs are able to be done on a Passap? Also what is the gauge of yarn and the DJ technique you use to achieve the widest afghans on a Passap? 4 ply with ladder back? How big an afghan can you knit on Passap? How would I see the superior quality of Passap knits, would it be possible to decide on a stitch pattern, yarn (gauge and fiber) and DJ technique and both of us knit a good size swatch to compare?


----------



## jaysclark (Jan 26, 2013)

My thoughts. I love my brother machines, I have two 970's and the electronic colour changer that comes close to the Passap auto changer

I have also got a Passap E6000 and find it great for double bed work, but as Susieknitter said, it is not as user friendly as Brother machines.

Both machines require you to learn how to use them methodically and you will make lots of mistakes until it 'clicks' and it does eventually!

Just keep plugging away


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

KateWood said:


> Hi Chris? How many different DJs are able to be done on a Passap? Also what is the gauge of yarn and the DJ technique you use to achieve the widest afghans on a Passap? And how can I see the superior quality of the knit produced on a Passap? Would it be possible to decide on a stitch pattern, yarn gauge and fiber and DJ technique and both of us knit a good size swatch to compare?


Oooohh...that sounds fun! It could make a great thread. It will get me to use all the built in DJ settings in the Passap too.

I looked in the manual, and there are 15 different types of DJ listed when using 2 colours (not including tuck stitch patterns that use 2 colours, obviously).

These come programmed into the machine. Unlike the Brother (where you select a pattern based on it's picture), in the Passap you select 2 things...a) the pattern (i.e. picture) and then b) the technique. So I guess it would be like our Brother KRC switch having 15 different positions, instead of just on or off? 

Here's what's listed:

These are the automatic ones (i.e. no pressing buttons or moving switches or anything. Just knit left to right)

180 Birdseye double-bed fairisle.
181 DJ with background colour only on the reverse
182 DJ with vertical stripes on the reverse
183 Double bed fairisle
184 DJ Birdseye with long stitch
185 DJ with long stitch
186 Double bed fantasy fairisle with tuck stitch (tuck occurs on the main bed)
187 DJ with tuck stitch on every row on the reverse
188 DJ with half fishermans rib on the reverse
191 DJ with 2 tucks on the reverse side

These ones require intervention from the knitter:

189 DJ with contrasting stitch formations for background and motif colours (creates a '3D' embossed fairisle) - knitter must move a lever every 2 rows
190 Variation on the above
192 DJ with pintucks every 4 rows (knitter must move a lever at the end of each 4 rows to insert 2 rows of background colour)
193 Variation on above, but every 6 rows
194 Variation on above, but every 8 rows

I have limited experience, but from what I have knitted so far, and from what everyone tells me, technique 186 (a tucked DJ) produces the widest fabric. In Brother terms, the ribber would be set to knit every needle in both directions, and the main bed would be set to tuck needles at B position, and knit needles at D position, in both directions. It produces a very fluffy, soft and reversible DJ.

I'd say 3 ply probably works the best with the above technique?

What we are probably best doing, is if you decide on a simple pattern from StitchWorld 1 (something not too wide or long), I will load it into the Passap memory and we can both knit the same sample using the same techniques and yarn as you said, then photograph and measure the results?

It should be really interesting! Shall we agree on 2 strands of 2/30 acrylic for each colour?

If you can list the types of DJ you'd like to compare/see, and the settings on the Brother carriages for each one, we can even do them in the same order on the samples?

If we also agree not to add any borders or extra needles (i.e. if the pattern is 30 stitches wide, we will only work 30 stitches) we should be able to compare the width etc. accurately. The Passap machine is a 5mm standard gauge, vs. 4.5mm for the Brother, so we will need to deduct .5mm for each gap between the needle pattern on the Passap results to compare like for like, i.e. 30 stitch pattern gets 28 x 0.5 = 14mm deducted from the final width measurements).

I'm excited for this! Love swatching!!!

Perhaps others could join in too? Compare the same results on a Toyota, Singer, Superba etc. Imagine that? 

Chris
x


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

jaysclark said:


> My thoughts. I love my brother machines, I have two 970's and the electronic colour changer that comes close to the Passap auto changer
> 
> I have also got a Passap E6000 and find it great for double bed work, but as Susieknitter said, it is not as user friendly as Brother machines.
> 
> ...


Mistakes? I've never made any mistakes! Just 'interesting discoveries'

:sm09: :sm09: :sm09:

At one point in July, I made lots of them...on a KX-350! :sm12: :sm06: :sm09:


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

Lets see how many others would be interested in joining in as well. We can all have fun ending this stupid rivalry over our knitting machines.
I am not biased because I currently own Brother machines. If Passap Actually knits better in their stitch structure than Brother, than it does. If both knit just as Beautifully then They are Comparable. And all this prejudice due to marketing hype can finally be put to rest. One thing though, I do not use a motor unit and request that you knit your swatches and not use your motor unit to knit them for you, in order to have results that are actual able to be comparable.
Since most people will agree a picture on a computer isn't as good as actually seeing and feeling fabrics I won't say that any picture will solve the debate for me, are you in the US or UK? Perhaps we could knit 2 swatches, keep one and send one so the other can examine it for themselves and determine if one or the other machine actually knits a better fabric. I assume you'd be unbiased having both brands you prefer for various techniques. 
Of all the DJ techniques you mentioned, I believe the only one that would require hand selecting needles on the manual bed for a Brother is the fantasy fair isle. Since your model Passap doesn't auto select your back beds needles for the stitch patterns either, are you using a Jac40 to get the same patterns on both beds or is the fantasy fair isle accomplished by plaiting on the manual back bed? If it's a plaited backing, what is the heaviest yarn that can be used on the Passap to knit that form of DJ?
At a glance, all the other DJ backings; long stitch/Milano, half fisherman's rib etc. are all good on both machines. I will have another look though to verify your list. In regard to the 4.5mm and 5mm difference, that is typically adjusted for on the tension dials. 
Why don't you pick a couple of your favorite stitch patterns out of your pattern book as well, I may still have it downloaded in my documents.


----------



## jaysclark (Jan 26, 2013)

Passap isn't better than Brother or vice versa. They produce different stitch patterns and fabrics. Depends what you are trying to achieve


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

Where can I see some of the DJs you've listed explained; double bed fair isle or double jacquard for ex, is one knit with slip st and the other tuck st on the MB? Most brother knitters define all double bed color rib as double jacquard and will sometimes state if they knit with tuck or the slip technique and which backing they knit, which is most commonly birds eye, solid with either the MC or one of the CCs, or striped. The colors knit on a solid back can be switched for wide horizontal stripes and if knitting a striped back, to create a checker board pattern for ex. I have the KR850 which does have the lili/every other needle auto selection feature that can be knit with slip, tuck or plain stitch technique or in some combination of those.


----------



## jaysclark (Jan 26, 2013)

The dbj in my avatar was knitted on a Passap, tuck on the back bed, eon and patterning on the front bed. The back of the blanket also shows the pattern, i.e. Reversible. This is difficult to achieve on a Brother ribber, but automatic on a Passap


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

KateWood said:


> Where can I see some of the DJs you've listed explained; double bed fair isle or double jacquard for ex, is one knit with slip st and the other tuck st on the MB? Most brother knitters define all double bed color rib as double jacquard and will sometimes state if they knit with tuck or the slip technique and which backing they knit, which is most commonly birds eye, solid with either the MC or one of the CCs, or striped. The colors knit on a solid back can be switched for wide horizontal stripes and if knitting a striped back, to create a checker board pattern for ex. I have the KR850 which does have the lili/every other needle auto selection feature that can be knit with slip, tuck or plain stitch technique or in some combination of those.


Hi Kate,

Sorry for the late reply. I'm not ignoring you...but today I had to get a sample piece knitted (on a Brother machine  that was all hand transferred and it ended up taking me ages (pic below). Even after all that, I got the first transfer the wrong way around...not a mistake of course, just an 'interesting discovery'  LOL.

I can try to interpret the needle layout and settings used on the Passap for DJ, but I'm still rather new to the machine. I wonder if JaysClark would lend a hand by copy/pasting the list I did earlier and letting us know exactly what happens on the beds? She seems to have a firm grasp of what's happening! Whereas my efforts might be a mis-interpretation.

I'll also add that I'm in agreement with Jaysclark, Passap fabric isn't better, it's just completely different.

I'm in the UK, but I'll send samples anywhere in the world for this project. No fears on the motor side of things...it scares me too much to use it. It has become a very handy shelf at the moment 

Chris
x


----------



## jaysclark (Jan 26, 2013)

Lol! I don't have a firm grasp on anything Passap! I just did the pattern in DAK. Picked a 2 colour tuck technique and knitted it. When I took it off the machine I saw it was reversible!


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

Thanks JC, I am interested in seeing a copy of a manual that defines the DJ techniques Chris listed as I'm wondering since the Passap e6000 doesn't select stitch pattern needles like on it's MB either, if the fantasy fair isle is a plaited double jac or the same as your 2 color DJ knit eon in tuck, on both beds (?). The Japanese machine also knit tuck stitch DJ, the electronic models can also knit the pattern using eon on the MB and our ribbers and the ribbers knit plain, tuck or slip st and select eon with the lili buttons engaged; so half fisherman's rib backing is also accomplished on these machines. There are a couple ways to knit DJ on the Brothers so the mb pattern shows through.


----------



## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

Kate, Brother machines will knit practically all the DJ techniques that a Passap knits. I have even put the Passap Tuck patterns into a Brother and knit those successfully. 

I can't understand why some techniques in a Passap are referred to has Double Bed Fair-Isle and others Jaquard. As I understand it Fair-Isle knitting originates from the Scottish Island and has floats and Jacquard (a totally different fabric, without floats) was named after the French guy who invented it.

Regarding having to press buttons making knitting take longer, I think knitting the last baby blanket I pictured on here taking me only 1hr 14 mins (with a short brake) quite good.

Regarding taking off/moving up weights when knitting on a Brother.....I don't. If I have to stop knitting (even for a day or so) then I lift the knitted piece up complete with weights attached, and place it onto my chair or if the length of it sufficient on the main bed of the machine.

When I referred to "yarn pegs" I actually meant "feeding eyelets" which I found on my 4 colour changer a pain. I also found the
Pushers a pain.

I know we all like different things, and some get along better with one thing than another. But I still standby it is down to the person using the machine, and that persons knowledge and ability, that actually makes the knitted piece good or bad. 
To me it is like making a cake. One baker can have a top of the range electric mixer and another nothing else but a wooden spoon. The electric mixer doesn't guarantee that the cake will come out of the oven better than the one made with the wooden spoon.


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

That's correct, I'd say just about all DJ techniques knit on a Passap can be knit on a brother. But need the definations used for the Passap DJs to know for sure. I am also uncertain as to why a couple are called as db fair isle. There are at least 2 ways to knit DJ on the Brother KMs that the pattern is also shown on the backing, more or less depending on which you choose.


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

jaysclark said:


> Lol! I don't have a firm grasp on anything Passap! I just did the pattern in DAK. Picked a 2 colour tuck technique and knitted it. When I took it off the machine I saw it was reversible!


Bugger! I'll have a go at deciphering them then :sm02:


----------



## Peppie (Jan 13, 2013)

Um, I do think you need to mind your language.


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

KateWood said:


> That's correct, I'd say just about all DJ techniques knit on a Passap can be knit on a brother. But need the definations used for the Passap DJs to know for sure. I am also uncertain as to why a couple are called as db fair isle. There are at least 2 ways to knit DJ on the Brother KMs that the pattern is also shown on the backing, more or less depending on which you choose.


Hey ladies,

I have no idea why they call some double bed fairisle and others jacquard either.

In the manual they are all referred to as double bed fairisle, and in the stitch book they are referred to as jacquard. Weird.

Ok, so I've taken a photo and marked it up with some notes. I'll try my best to show you how to decipher the patterns. Sue might be better at this though as she said she knows how to use both machines?

First thing you'll notice Kate is that the diagrams are "upside down" I.e. The top bed of needles is the ribber setup, and the bottom set is the main bed.

In this example we can see that the technique uses every needle, as in full needle rib.

Then there are the pushers. These seem to be the equivalent of the 'needle selectors' that are hidden inside the main bed of the brother machines. On Brother machines, the carriage passes and the electronics will either push the needle out to D, or won't be triggered and will leave the needle at B. Depending on where the needle ends up, depends on what the carriage does with the needle on the next pass.

The pushers on the Passap do the same thing, but instead of the needles being moved, only the pushers get moved by the electronics (which are in the carriage, not the bed). If the pusher is moved to "working position" (equivalent of D on a brother), the needle will knit a regular stitch. If the pusher is moved into "resting position" (equivalent of B on a brother) the needle will tuck/slip etc. just like on a Brother machine.

You'll notice there are pushers available on both beds? More on that in a sec.

The final thing you will see are letters, one above the other. These are simply the carriage settings for each carriage.

The picture below tells the knitter to set the main bed carriage at LX, and the "ribber carriage" at AX. The X simply means "patterning switch on" (like KC on the Brother).

Here is a list of what each carriage setting means in Double Bed Fairisle setups (these will occur if the carriage meets a needle whose pusher is in "resting" position):

N - ignores the pushers and knits a normal stitch (like setting the Brother carriage to N-L instead of KC)
AX - Tuck
BX - Slip
FX - Fishermans Rib
KX - Tuck (same as AX, but used on the main bed carriage)
LX - Slip (same as BX, but used on the main bed carriage)

Finally, on the picture below, you can see a right and left arrow next to the ribber carriage setting. I'm sure you can guess what these are....they are the lili buttons! They do a similar job, but instead of pushing every second pusher into working position (as the Brother equivalent does), they simply reverse every pushers position when activated. They are used more in double bed tuck patterns, but this is how you can get patterning on both beds with a Passap.

With this info, you should be able to understand the diagrams I'm about to post.

One thing I didn't mention...if a diagram has dots instead of pusher lines, it means "no pusher required".

The picture below will be a Full needle rib, set up. The main bed will slip stitches when pushers are at resting position, and will knit stitches when pushers are at working position. It shows that all pushers begin at working position.
On the "ribber", every other pusher begins at working position, and the in between pushers are placed at resting position. The carriage is set to slip, and both lili buttons are activated, which means the pushers will be reversed every time the carriage passes in both directions!

I'll post the other diagrams in my reply to this one. Any questions, let me know!

P.S. How about we go for Brother pattern 527 in 2 colours? It's 8 stitches wide and 12 rows high, which makes an ideal tension swatch of 40 stitches by 60 rows!


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

Here are the others:


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

Peppie said:


> Um, I do think you need to mind your language.


Whoops! Sorry about that! It was autocorrected on the phone. I was typing bummer!
Cx


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

susieknitter said:


> ...
> To me it is like making a cake. One baker can have a top of the range electric mixer and another nothing else but a wooden spoon. The electric mixer doesn't guarantee that the cake will come out of the oven better than the one made with the wooden spoon.


Nope, but I bet the baker who makes fabulous cakes with a wooden spoon could make many more fabulous cakes, and much faster/easier if they also owned that top of the range electric mixer! 
:sm24:


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

Hi Chris, Is Passap technique 186 knit with both the MC/CC knitting in the lock at the same time? I don't see any pusher instructions for the ribbing bed, only that it's knitting normal every stitch, every row. This leads me to believe that the fantasy fair isle is a plaited double jacquard


----------



## dialknit (Oct 17, 2012)

Passap technique 186 is not knit with both the MC/CC knitting in the lock at the same time as you can only knit 1 colour at a time. The back lock is set to N (none pattern) it will knit every row and the front lock is set to AX (tuck) and using pushers which will be activated by the console or the punchcard if using the DM80.


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

Yes. This is correct. ^^^^

The Passap setup is like having the ribber carriage on at all times, hence you can only use one colour at a time in the carriage (called 'locks' by Passap).

I'm guessing you can see why I gave the title, "King of the single bed work" to my Brother! Especially 2 colour fairisle! It would take 4 carriage passes on a Passap to do the equivalent of one carriage pass on my Brother when trying to do single bed 2 colour fairisle!

:sm07:


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

classixuk said:


> Nope, but I bet the baker who makes fabulous cakes with a wooden spoon could make many more fabulous cakes, and much faster/easier if they also owned that top of the range electric mixer!
> :sm24:


Cute I can see from the information you shared that DJ is faster and easier to knit on a Passap. No levers to flip, that I didn't know. It definitely makes knitting an afghan, with a motor unit, a set it and forget it knit. 
It's no wonder though that you also have a Brother since it's as much work for the built in techniques for all your single bed knits on a Passap, hand manipulated stitch patterns; entrelac, short row intarsia designs or regular intarsia also cables and lace or tuck patterns with cables or lace must be frustrating too. Do Passap km's knitweave? I already know one of my favorite techniques, lace, would require hand transferring every pattern stitch. So, owning your Brother does make a lot of sense for pretty much every other knit than a double jac or punch tuck...BTW, your double bed cabled swatch you posted is beautifully knit. Which of your machines have you enjoyed the longest? 
I do admire Passaps fantasy fair isle and have been considering buying one, off and on for the last few years. Can you show me which technique # is used to accomplish patterned blister dj or Quilted? I'm not sure I saw those listed; still looking through the information during my uninterrupted time.


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

I meant to write its as much work for single bed knits on a passap as it is for some double jacs on brother machines. From the info you shared it appears there's some 13 shared techniques for DJ between our machines.


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

KateWood said:


> Cute I can see from the information you shared that DJ is faster and easier to knit on a Passap. No levers to flip, that I didn't know. It definitely makes knitting an afghan, with a motor unit, a set it and forget it knit.


It does, but I'm really not confident with the motor at all. I'm so worried it will break something that I just don't use it. I play around with it every now and again, but I'm like a teenager who always wanted a pet snake because they're cool. If the motor merely looks at me or hisses, I tend to wonder what on earth I was thinking when I got it, so I place it back into hibernation! 

The 4 colour auto changer works beautifully though, so it more than makes up for it in lost time.



KateWood said:


> It's no wonder though that you also have a Brother since it's as much work for the built in techniques for all your single bed knits on a Passap, hand manipulated stitch patterns; entrelac, short row intarsia designs or regular intarsia also cables and lace or tuck patterns with cables or lace must be frustrating too.


Intarsia takes way longer on a Passap from what I can see. They do have techniques built in for Intarsia, but it's limited to 4 seperate feeds of colour. That makes a simple "W" impossible. I wouldn't even attempt entrelac. Regular short row can be fully automated (as pushers are set to resting position when using any pattern, rather than manually bringing needles out to hold), but only with stockinette. You'd 'cut and sew' a neckline if using any patterning (something I haven't tried yet) as far as I'm aware.

Cables are easier to transfer...Passap have a technique that makes a 3x3 cable easy - I've included a picture of how it works, as it will work on any Japanese machine too! 



KateWood said:


> Do Passap km's knitweave?


I've seen pictures, but I have no idea how they are doing it. Rather like intarsia (and all other single bed work), I prefer the Brother.



KateWood said:


> I already know one of my favorite techniques, lace, would require hand transferring every pattern stitch.


Some of the lace is actually easier - the carriage does the knitting and makes the lace holes too - drop lace - without stopping to release stitches or change carriages on any rows (this is where those back bed pushers are very handy!). Just knit left to right. This is fabulously easy if you're looking to make a quick lace design where the eyelets make up the pattern, rather than the transfers. I've included a picture of some examples. But for other types of lace, where you'd like to see transfered stitches as well as eyelets, you need to use the transfer carriage, and it transfers stitches from one bed to the other (Passap transfer carriages can transfer stitches from the front bed to the back, and vice versa). I think that's too slow, so for lace I would always use the Passap for 'quick lace' and the Brother for 'true lace'.



KateWood said:


> So, owning your Brother does make a lot of sense for pretty much every other knit than a double jac or punch tuck...BTW, your double bed cabled swatch you posted is beautifully knit. Which of your machines have you enjoyed the longest?


Yes, I'd never be without my Brother. I feel I need both the Passap and the Brother to truly get the best of both worlds. Thanks for the feedback about the swatch. Many mistakes in it, but that's the idea of swatching I guess? I will change the pattern accordingly.

I started machine knitting in June this year on a Brother KX-350 (still my favourite machine for it's sheer portablity). The 950i with ribber came 10 days later. The Passap came last month. The other machines are in 'hibernation' as I tend to use DAK a lot, and like to download patterns into the machine.



KateWood said:


> I do admire Passaps fantasy fair isle and have been considering buying one, off and on for the last few years. Can you show me which technique # is used to accomplish patterned blister dj or Quilted? I'm not sure I saw those listed; still looking through the information during my uninterrupted time.


Patterned blister DJ would be semi-automatic, techniques 192-194, although technique 189-190 also gives a "3D" effect in tuck. I've included pictures of the results you get with techniques 192-194 below as "Pintuck Fairisle".

For true quilted DJ, I'd use Tech 181, and stuff each 'pocket' with quilting fabric as I progressed.

I'm also going to add a few pictures of how the Passap offers new creative opportunites for double bed tuck fabrics - these I believe are nigh on impossible to achieve on my Brother machine.

Specifically, I'm going to 'zone in' on one example. It uses technique 138, which does 2 tucks for every black square in a pattern i.e. 1 row of pattern = 2 rows of knitting. (Technique 139 listed below it does 4 tucks, but that's just the Passap showing off!)

I will show an example of the finished fabric, and the pattern used to produce it. If you count the black squares, you will see that the Passap machine is tucking stitches over 10 rows of knitting, and across up to 8 adjacent needles at a time.

I believe this is clear evidence of why I need both machines in my life (or at least that's what I keep telling my other half!) :sm09: I really don't think that the Japanese machines can produce these fabrics. Or am I wrong?

I'm hoping Susie can help out as she knows how to use both machines?

Cx


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

Talking of Passap tuck stitch - I was going somewhere last Thursday night, and needed a gift. I just remembered this.

I made this simple scarf on the Passap in about 40 minutes using tuck stitch technique 139 and 1 strand of 2/30.

It's very textured. Had I been brave enough to use the motor, no doubt it would have taken around 10 minutes.


----------



## MiniHawHaw (Mar 22, 2013)

classixuk, you've done a fantastic job with your comparisons of the Brother to the Passap. You put it in a way that makes total sense. I've had people ask me & I always find it hard to describe in a way they will understand and you did it beautifully. I learned (am still learning) on a Passap so it wasn't as difficult because I didn't know any better, then I learned (okay, still learning) on Brothers, Superbas and a few others (okay I became a hoarder). It looks like there's been a little bit of Machine "Bashing" going on which I just don't get. I hate when someone says something negative about any of my machines, I love them all for different reasons. And the worst is to speak negatively about a machine you've never used, I don't understand how people can have such strong opinions about something they know nothing about but it seems that they do & it also seems we are very protective if our machines. Anyway if I'm ever asked again about the differences I'm going to either send them directly to this thread or copy & paste it to them as your description is right on the money.


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

MiniHawHaw said:


> classixuk, you've done a fantastic job with your comparisons of the Brother to the Passap. You put it in a way that makes total sense. I've had people ask me & I always find it hard to describe in a way they will understand and you did it beautifully. I learned (am still learning) on a Passap so it wasn't as difficult because I didn't know any better, then I learned (okay, still learning) on Brothers, Superbas and a few others (okay I became a hoarder). It looks like there's been a little bit of Machine "Bashing" going on which I just don't get. I hate when someone says something negative about any of my machines, I love them all for different reasons. And the worst is to speak negatively about a machine you've never used, I don't understand how people can have such strong opinions about something they know nothing about but it seems that they do & it also seems we are very protective if our machines. Anyway if I'm ever asked again about the differences I'm going to either send them directly to this thread or copy & paste it to them as your description is right on the money.


Aw, thanks Mini!

That means a lot.

I don't get the 'machine rivalry' thing. Perhaps it's because I'm still fresh to machine knitting? I just want to own every machine if I could! They all seem to offer things that other machines can't. I'd love to try the Toyotas for the Simulnkit facility...imagine...2 colour double jacquard without having to change colours in the carriage at all? None of my current machines could do that. Or even make 2 pieces of a garment at the same time with perfectly even tensions? That's what some of the Superbas offer!

I feel that if the main brands had kept going for just 5 more years, the competition between them would have led to an excellent all rounder!

I believe the future is looking bright though and I'm excited to see the millenials picking up the knitting machine idea with the project, Kniterate.

Cx


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

susieknitter said:


> Kate, Brother machines will knit practically all the DJ techniques that a Passap knits. I have even put the Passap Tuck patterns into a Brother and knit those successfully.


This has totally baffled me. After using my Brother to make a hat yesterday, I had a bit of time left over, so I tried this.

DAK wouldn't even let me save the Passap tuck pattern for use on a Brother as it warned me there were "adjacent tucks" on rows x,y and z.

I went ahead and saved them anyway, uploaded to the machine (a 950i) and off I went. The carriage got jammed after about 4 rows, and the yarn simply 'looped' rather than tucked.

How did you do it Susie?


----------



## jaysclark (Jan 26, 2013)

classixuk said:


> This has totally baffled me. After using my Brother to make a hat yesterday, I had a bit of time left over, so I tried this.
> 
> DAK wouldn't even let me save the Passap tuck pattern for use on a Brother as it warned me there were "adjacent tucks" on rows x,y and z.
> 
> ...


Would have worked on full needle rib tuck maybe. Were you trying single bed?


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

jaysclark said:


> Would have worked on full needle rib tuck maybe. Were you trying single bed?


I was trying to replicate the scarf I made above, full needle rib set up.



I just don't think that the Brother can replicate these types of stitches at all, yet Susie is adamant they can. She just won't share with us how it's done! Perhaps she made a mistake or I've read it incorrectly?


----------



## Peppie (Jan 13, 2013)

If Sue says it can be done, then it can. She is very methodical and will not tell you something that does not work.


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

Peppie said:


> If Sue says it can be done, then it can. She is very methodical and will not tell you something that does not work.


I can't find any way whatsoever to make it work. I don't think even Sue can make it work.

I think it's only Passap and Superba that can do it unfortunately.


----------



## dialknit (Oct 17, 2012)

DAK wouldn't even let me save the Passap tuck pattern for use on a Brother as it warned me there were "adjacent tucks" on rows x,y and z.
You can lie to designer knit and save it as a fair isle pattern.


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

classixuk said:


> I can't find any way whatsoever to make it work. I don't think even Sue can make it work.
> 
> I think it's only Passap and Superba that can do it unfortunately.


Sue advised you correctly. She's been MKing for over 30 years and has very generously shared her extensive knowledge with others on this site.


----------



## dialknit (Oct 17, 2012)

KateWood said:


> Sue advised you correctly. She's been MKing for over 30 years and has very generously shared her extensive knowledge with others on this site.


 I can only agree Kate, Susie shares so much info and answers so many queries. Often when I see Susie has responded to a queerie I don't bother to respond as she is correct and explains detail with it. You should be able to do 4 rows tuck in full needle rib.


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

KateWood said:


> Sue advised you correctly. She's been MKing for over 30 years and has very generously shared her extensive knowledge with others on this site.


I can't find any way this can be done. I've searched high and low.

Sue advised that it could be done, but hasn't shared the directions yet. Not sure why?

In the meantime I consoled myself by making a reversible pumpkin beanie hat on the Brother!

Will wait for Sue's instructions on the Brother tuck!

Do you still want to the samples project? If so, let me know which techniques.

Cx


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

dialknit said:


> I can only agree Kate, Susie shares so much info and answers so many queries. Often when I see Susie has responded to a queerie I don't bother to respond as she is correct and explains detail with it. You should be able to do 4 rows tuck in full needle rib.


This one is 10 needle tuck.

Cx


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

You wrote your scarf was an 8 needle tuck didn't you, when you posted a picture of the st. pattern and the technique number? If you had listened to all the others who tell you the Japanese KMs can only tuck for FOUR rows you wouldn't be trying to goad Sue with something everyone else says can't be done. And, I am not going to send you a reply to try to teach you how to knit a tuck pattern with 8 rows of tucked stitches on a Brother when you already know how to knit it on your rolls royce


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

KateWood said:


> You wrote your scarf was an 8 needle tuck didn't you, when you posted a picture of the st. pattern and the technique number you posted? Besides if you had listened to all the others who tell you brother can only tuck for FOUR rows & I know you've heard that, you wouldn't be trying to goad Sue with something everyone else says can't be done. And, I am not going to send you a reply to try to teach you how to knit a tuck pattern with 8 rows of tucked stitches on a Brother when you already know how to knit it on your rolls royce Have fun.


I didn't make the scarf with the technique number and pattern I posted Kate. Those instructions and examples were further to your request, and before the post about the scarf (look back if you don't believe me).

The scarf was knitted as a 10 needle tuck.

I have listened to all the others (and the instruction manual) who have told me that the Brother can only tuck for four rows.

But, respectfully, I'm not the one in this thread who suggested that it can do more. With all due respect, it was Sue, a teacher of over 30 years vs. me, a newbie of 4 months. I'm not trying to 'goad her'. I'm trying to ask her to provide the instructions to back up what she said:



susieknitter said:


> Kate, Brother machines will knit practically all the DJ techniques that a Passap knits. I have even put the Passap Tuck patterns into a Brother and knit those successfully.


Why wouldn't I believe her?

If she made a mistake, then fine. I just don't know why she can't come out and say, "Actually...made a blip there. It'a a Passap only thing", but perhaps she has too much pride? She turned the thread into a 'machine war'. And that was unfortunate. It's not my fault if she can't learn how to use different brands of machine (or enjoy using them at least), and everybody should feel welcome in this forum, not just people who only enjoy using "Brother machines" to the exclusivity of every other brand.

I've gone from trying to help newbies at the beginning of this thread, to feeling penalised for daring to buy a Passap to compliment my Brother collection.

I'm even starting to wonder if you ever had any intention of us carrying out the "Same swatch, different machine" project?

You tasked me with so many things, and I was so excited to be involved, taking my personal time to provide photos, marking up diagrams etc. that you requested. When I provided it all, you went very quiet.

Maybe I have the wrong end of the stick? But it feels to me as though Susie didn't like the idea (for some weird reason) that somebody (a mere newbie to the craft) was suggesting that they could produce fabrics that would be (to their knowledge) impossible on the Brother machine?

Instead of getting into a discussion about it, and using 30 years of her experience (she claims on both machines), she brushed off the idea with an analogy about a baker who makes great cakes with a spoon, and claimed she can achieve the same patterns on a Brother machine?

When I asked her how...she went silent.



classixuk said:


> Sue might be better at this though as she said she knows how to use both machines?





classixuk said:


> How did you do it Susie?





classixuk said:


> I just don't think that the Brother can replicate these types of stitches at all, yet Susie is adamant they can. She just won't share with us how it's done! Perhaps she made a mistake or I've read it incorrectly?





classixuk said:


> Sue advised that it could be done, but hasn't shared the directions yet. Not sure why?


I've done nothing wrong.

Susie made a claim, backed up by 30 years of experience.

To me, and everybody else, Susie is just pixels on a screen, and her claim contravened (even you admit that) everything that is known about the machine rules.

If she told me her Brother machine can fly, I'd ask to see evidence too.

What's wrong with that? Clearly nothing?

I could have been in the wrong. But I wasn't. She clearly cannot, and will not ever be able to, replicate the tuck stitches that Passap can produce on the Brother machine. None if us can. It's an impossible feat.

That's why I own both, and I've been very clear in the pros and cons of both machines throughout the entire thread.

Susie wasn't. She was what my generation call, "a fanboi!" - and that's her prerogative. She's only deluding herself.

Meanwhile, I'll get on with my "rolls royce" as you stuck in at the end of your post. But don't forget, I also own a "mercedes" in my Brother machine - so I can enjoy the best of both.

I've never claimed one is better than the other. You ladies did that.

No wonder this craft died out if this is how newbies with "the wrong machine" got treated at their local knitting clubs. Everyone trying to 'one up' on everyone else.

It's just knitting for Gods sake! Not rocket science!

Enjoy it, and every machine, and every yarn, and every new knitter - regardless of their experience.

Over and out!

Chris


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

classixuk said:


> I've done nothing wrong.
> 
> Susie made a claim, backed up by 30 years of experience.
> 
> ...


HiC, I coined our Brothers as "Mercedes" You coined Passap "rolls royce". Before you we always heard it called the "cadillac". No one thinks you have any "nerve" acquiring it, happy for you. No one said it's a stinker and that brother can do EVERYTHIG that Passap does. You took what I said wrong, Brother Knits all the same techniques. As to weather or not it can tuck 10 rows double bed, highly doubt it. Plus, in Sue's and my defense, I don't think any of us looked at the pattern you posted and thought 10 rows would be tucked. I sure didn't and likely Sue thought the same. 
As far as knitting swatches for our comparison I'm interested in this as well, to see if another machine knits better quality fabric and while looking at the techniques they have in common & some stitch patterns, I haven't had the time to turn my machine on for more than a couple swatches for the last several days for all the interruptions. So I'll beg your pardon and request your patience while I tend to other things, I'll let you know when it calms down here and I'm able to do this. 
As far as everyone trying to one up with their machines, I never said my machines are Better than yours, only stated it knits all the same techniques. Which has caused a lot of anxiety from others who persist in claiming theirs IS better. What makes a machine better is the owners overall satisfaction with its ability to knit all they want IMHO.


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

UhOh Chris, I was wrong, I got Sue mixed up with someone else. She's not the one who had been knitting for 30 years or ever taught; that was another knitter altogether. Huge Apologizes to you Sue for my bad recollection and mixup if you ever read all this nonsense.


----------



## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

Well haven't you got your knickers in a twist Chris, or should I say your boxers!!!

Lets get a few facts right here, seeing that you seemingly can't read things clearly.

I stated that I owned a Pfaff but that I didn't like it. I consider that they are not as user friendly as a Brother machine, or come to that a Silver Reed machine. I didn't say I couldn't use it, I COULD AND I DID!!!!!

I said that it didn't matter what make of machine a knitter used it was their ability to use it that mattered.

I said that MOST of the DJ techniques that are in a Passap/Pfaff can be done on any machine. I HAVE KNIT THEM, and there are plenty on here that will tell you I have helped them knit them also!!! 
Karla has proved that the two sided DJ can be knitted on a Brother that lots said could only be done on a Passap. If you look back through my Topics you will see I did a swatch showing this sometime ago.

I said that the Passap/Pffaf Tuck patterns can be knit on a Brother machine. I WILL HOLD MY HANDS UP HERE, I should have said SOME because I didn't try them all!
I must admit it is a long time ago that I did them, and I don't remember how I did them. What I can remember is that I mimicked how the Passap/Pffaf knit them and YES I KNIT THEM.
In fact someone on here bought my Brother 965.....and if I am not mistaken......in the list of inputted patterns that I wrote on the back of the manual there is at least one listed as a Passap Tuck pattern.
I was going to try to do it again so that I could come back with an answer, but after all that you have said I don't think I will bother. I have better things to do with my time than to waste it trying to prove something to the likes of you.

I have found you extremely rude and obnoxious, not only towards me, but NuttyNurse also.
As I said in return to the PM you sent me some people are hard to teach, and sometimes you have to give up and walk away. But in my opinion you were not teaching her, you were bullying her to do what you said! In doing so, and telling her to do this and that not related to knitting DJ, you did nothing but confuse her completely. And then what did you do, you ridiculed her.

In the 5+ years that I have been a member of this forum I have never had a cross word with anyone. I don't like arguing, I don't like unpleasantness, I consider life is too short. I am even sorry that I have had to say what I have to you, but I am not going to be made out to be a liar and not defend myself! 

Kate obviously made a mistake saying that I had been machine knitting for 30 years. I think what she picked up on was the fact that the club I belong to has been going for 30+ years.
Yes I have taught, but I am not a qualified teacher! I do my best to help those that are worthy of being taught. And I only do this with the things I know I can do but they can't do....or are struggling to do.

I should be in my bed now instead of having to write this ridiculous childish post. I will not be here to read your reply (but I have no doubts that I will actually want to) because I am going down south with a very good friend......a machine knitter I met on here......to stay with, and meet up with, other very nice machine knitters I also met on here.

Enjoy using whatever machine you chose to use, I couldn't care less what make it is!

And to anyone else reading this post......can I say I am sorry that it has come to this......and by no means must you think that I would ever be this way with anyone else. I most definitely wouldn't! I hope you all can understand why I have felt the need to be so abrupt and most definitely different to what is my norm regarding all others.


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

Sue you don't need to apologize for writing that, I wouldn't bother making a reply to such a RANT, it's a waste of time.


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

KateWood said:


> HiC, I coined our Brothers as "Mercedes" You coined Passap "rolls royce". Before you we always heard it called the "cadillac".


As I've only been machine knitting for 4 months, I can't take the credit for coining the Passap with the 'Rolls Royce' comparison. I hadn't even heard of a Passap before I began machine knitting. It's the knitting community both here, and on Ravelry, who have been calling it that for years before I even arrived on the scene.

See this thread on here from 5 years ago: http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-49962-1.html

I can only assume that the analogy has been anglicised as cadillacs aren't sold in the UK, so somebody replaced it with a more appropriate model?

From my own experience so far, and as I've said in this thread, I wouldn't describe either of the machines as a "Rolls Royce", a "cadillac", a "mercedes" or anything else. They're just knitting machines, and both can do different things brilliantly.



KateWood said:


> As far as knitting swatches for our comparison I'm interested in this as well, to see if another machine knits better quality fabric and while looking at the techniques they have in common & some stitch patterns, I haven't had the time to turn my machine on for more than a couple swatches for the last several days for all the interruptions. So I'll beg your pardon and request your patience while I tend to other things, I'll let you know when it calms down here and I'm able to do this.


Cool. I'm up for that. I'd love to see some Toyota simulknit samples and/or Superba/Singer/Silver Reed etc. Let me know when you have time.
If I get time before you I will make some matching samples and photograph them for use in a different thread. I'm full of cold at the minute though, so I'd be lucky to produce anything without mistakes.



KateWood said:


> ...which has caused a lot of anxiety from others who persist in claiming theirs IS better. What makes a machine better is the owners overall satisfaction with its ability to knit all they want IMHO.


I don't understand it either. As I've said, if I could own all of the machines, for all of their features, I most definitely would.


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

KateWood said:


> Sue you don't need to apologize for writing that, I wouldn't bother making a reply to such an ocd or bi polar like rant, it's a waste of time.


I've no idea why you're getting so personal Kate? I haven't treated any of you like that. I've kept to discussing machine knitting.

Resorting to personal insults, and speculating about another's mental health is a really low blow and entirely uncalled for in a knitting forum.

I'm astonished and astounded.


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

Frankly so were the others who sent me pm's about the rant. BTW, I didn't say You have a condition just referenced what the RANT you posted was like. OK I edited out what you mistook as personal...But you are the one who posted the Rant that I (and a few others) merely called It for what It seemed like. So, will you finally stop, or just continue on and on and onnnnnn? That's all folks I'm through with it.


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

susieknitter said:


> I said that MOST of the DJ techniques that are in a Passap/Pfaff can be done on any machine. I HAVE KNIT THEM, and there are plenty on here that will tell you I have helped them knit them also!!!
> 
> Karla has proved that the two sided DJ can be knitted on a Brother that lots said could only be done on a Passap. If you look back through my Topics you will see I did a swatch showing this sometime ago.


if you look back through this thread, you will see that I said, 


classixuk said:


> If she gets a Passap, she can go back to inputting her design number, then inputting her technique number for one of the countless double bed jacquard techniques (some of which can't even be achieved on a Japanese machine), and simply knit from left to right.


"Lots" might have said that 2 sided DJ can only be knitted on a Passap before I arrived, but it wasn't me. I said 'some' of the DJ techniques cannot be achieved on a Japanese machine, and that all of them were easier to do, which they are.

So to personally insult me Sue and accuse me of not being able to read correctly is like the pot calling the kettle black. I've no idea why you ladies are resorting to such personal insults. I'm not just words on a screen, I'm a real person with feelings.



susieknitter said:


> I must admit it is a long time ago that I did them, and I don't remember how I did them. What I can remember is that I mimicked how the Passap/Pffaf knit them and YES I KNIT THEM.


I have no doubt you did. All I had the ordacity to do was ask you how. Up until now, you've ignored me rather than just saying, "I forgot how, sorry." If I had known that, I would have tried to figure it out for myself.



susieknitter said:


> I was going to try to do it again so that I could come back with an answer, but after all that you have said I don't think I will bother. I have better things to do with my time than to waste it trying to prove something to the likes of you.


"The likes of me?" - there you go again with low blows and unnecessary personal insults.



susieknitter said:


> I have found you extremely rude and obnoxious, not only towards me, but NuttyNurse also.
> As I said in return to the PM you sent me some people are hard to teach, and sometimes you have to give up and walk away. But in my opinion you were not teaching her, you were bullying her to do what you said! In doing so, and telling her to do this and that not related to knitting DJ, you did nothing but confuse her completely. And then what did you do, you ridiculed her.


I respectfully disagree.

If you go back over the 2 threads where NuttyNurse was having problems with her machine, you will see that many, including yourself, were throwing out different potential solutions to no avail. She still wasn't getting anywhere.

I suggested she slow down, and walked her through, step-by-step in many cases, each of the elements she'd need to eventually achieve DJ. And great progress was being made. She went from feeling that she'd made a mistake buying the machine, to producing garments, swatches, ribs and discovering her lace carriage was faulty.

When it came to using her ribber with the colour changer, again she encountered problems. People were suggesting that perhaps her ribber wasn't aligned properly and a whole host of other things, none of which helped. It was me who spotted that her yarn wasn't being fed into the changer at the correct angle, and it turned out that was the cause of the problem. Once she changed masts, she remedied the problem.

But then, for some unknown reason, people (including yourself) started jumping in telling her, "Oh, you can use the regular mast. Classixuk is wrong!"

That might be true when you've been knitting for some time, and you've ironed out all the other problems. But from my point of view, Eva had no idea what angle the colour feeder should have been fed at - my suggestion that she follow the manufacturer instructions and use the supplied mast solved that for her. It was another problem eliminated.

It was my opinion at the time that Eva wasn't ready for the DJ, because there was still other stuff to check out/instruct her on to build up to it. She couldn't understand why her 1x1 rib on an odd number of needles with the lili buttons pushed in wasn't working. I never instructed her to do that, others did, by throwing too many suggestions at her at once.

Heck, you can bypass the tension mast all together and hand feed it. Yes, you can break the needle rule on a ribber, and still produce amazing fabrics. But I do think, with all due respect, that some of you knitters are so experienced that you forget sometimes that for a newbie, these revelations are probably best kept reserved until after the newbie has grasped what the technique actually is. They need to know the rules of something first, so that when they break them, it's intentional, not by mistake.



susieknitter said:


> In the 5+ years that I have been a member of this forum I have never had a cross word with anyone. I don't like arguing, I don't like unpleasantness, I consider life is too short. I am even sorry that I have had to say what I have to you, but I am not going to be made out to be a liar and not defend myself!


I'm genuinely sorry if I made you feel like that. I don't like arguing or unpleasantness myself. I told you via PM that I greatly admire your work, and that your posts have been a big help to me in my own knitting journey. I haven't called you a liar, and I certainly don't feel you have anything you need to defend yourself over.

I'd like to apologise to both of you, as it seems I have upset you both, in a manner that I never meant to do. I admire you both, and it's time for the insults and personal offences to draw to an end.

Can we just agree to move on from all this and get back to discussing machine knitting? None of this is worth stressing over.

Hopefully, Eva will have achieved her DJ by now!


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

If I only had more time for All this cut and paste, but not much so only will start by copy/paste part of your route 1 advice for Eva;

Route 1: Sell your Brother and buy a Passap.

Seriously...just give in and buy a Passap again. Why try fruitlessly teaching your dog to miaow, when a cat does it from the start?

Passap DBJ is easy. Very easy. No Brother DBJ will ever meet the ease, quality and variety of Passap DBJ.
Even if you master Brother DBJ techniques, you will still have the problem of weights distorting the work...Passap...It's the King of DBJ (and double bed tuck I might add)! There's a reason they're called the Rolls Royce of knitting machines. 

Then;
From my own experience so far, and as I've said in this thread, I wouldn't describe either of the machines as a "Rolls Royce", a "cadillac", a "mercedes" or anything else. They're just knitting machines, and both can do different things brilliantly. 
Meanwhile, I'll get on with my "rolls royce" as you stuck in at the end of your post. But don't forget, I also own a "mercedes" in my Brother machine - so I can enjoy the best of both.

I've never claimed one is better than the other. You ladies did that.

To me, and everybody else, Susie is just pixels on a screen, 
I'm not just words on a screen, I'm a real person with feelings.


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

KateWood said:


> If I only had more time for All this cut and paste, but not much so only will start by copy/paste part of your route 1 advice for Eva;
> 
> Route 1: Sell your Brother and buy a Passap.
> 
> ...


I have no idea what this is about? Why take parts of seperate posts made at different times and merge them together as one?

What about route 2 in the same post? Where I praised the Brother and all the things it could do? I guess that if you included that part it wouldn't suit your narrative?

In a forum, and on the internet in general, everybody is just pixels on a screen.

The reason I had to pipe up sometime later to remind you that behind those pixels though there is a real person with feelings, is because you resorted to hurling personal insults at me. Your reason given is that many people PM'd you speculating the same, but I don't think that's any defence. If that was other people's private opinion of me then so be it, but there's a good reason they said it privately. It's because words can hurt, and they have.

Yet I am the only one who has apologised and tried to move this on?

I'm not sure what your agenda is? You invited me to be a part of a project I obviously found exciting, and you were (what I naively believed as a newbie who took you at face value) being really nice and encouraging. But then you start insulting me, and tell me you and others have been PM'ing eachother about me all the while?

How is this meant to make me feel? Knowing that people in the forum I felt I was welcome at, were actually PMing about me behind my back and saying some pretty negative things? It's left me feeling wary about posting here at all, incase I'm unknowingly 'intruding' on somebody's thread who talks badly about me to others as soon as I've posted.

What are you trying to achieve?


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

Another copy paste from one of your commentaries, you wrote;

I could have been in the wrong. But I wasn't. She clearly cannot, and will not ever be able to, replicate the tuck stitches that Passap can produce on the Brother machine. None if us can. It's an impossible feat.

That's why I own both, and I've been very clear in the pros and cons of both machines throughout the entire thread.

Susie wasn't. She was what my generation call, "a fanboi!" - and that's her prerogative. She's only deluding herself.

HiC, what you wrote is incorrect and you're the one who resorts to insults and character analysis. And now you question if I'm nice because I remarked about YOUR rant. As far as what I wrote, I think anyone who chooses to invest their time following this topic will see who is continuing to drag this on, possibly waiting for you to disclose what you are trying to achieve.

I only wanted to see if your claim that Brother machines will Never knit the Quality that Passap knits is really true. But I'd have to say you've made a mighty big claim for a knitter with just 4 months of experience as both machines knit all the techniques they were designed to knit beautifully. My KM is a double bed machine with its ribber set up, designed to knit double bed tuck, Jacquards, and all the rest of the rib techniques. Albeit not All the st. patterns that Passap/pfaff were designed to knit. 
When I have time to select a good stitch pattern and technique to compare our knits with, I'll let you know if you're still interested. BTW, I don't have any 2/30 or 2/15 only 2/24 which I believe is 3 ply double stranded and some other 3 ply acrylics which I'll use; do you have any 3 ply?


----------



## Peppie (Jan 13, 2013)

I just want to say this and I will say no more. A lady called Sue Clifford wrote a book for Amberyarn called Textured Designs which was a conversion of her Duomatic book. Some are Jaquard and others are tuck. So it shows that the Duomatic patterns can be knitted on other standard machines, you just need to know how to convert.

I have attached a picture of the book and some photos of the patterns that are in it and you can see that they are similar to the texture of the double bed machines.


----------



## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

Thanks Peppi


----------



## MiniHawHaw (Mar 22, 2013)

Your Right about that Sue, I've often used the regular yarn mast or 2 of the regular masts as well with my color changer and it works withno problems at all. I may not know what problem is here but its not the yarn mast.
MJ


----------



## vulcanknitter (Apr 29, 2017)

o hi, new here but this interests me as i love the thought of reversable fabric. 
from what i can tell passap and japanese the beds are simply reversed.
so tech 186 which has knit on the back bed has tuck in pattern on the front (be it e6000 or duomatic80). where the japanese have knit on the front (ribber) and tuck in pattern on the back bed (the main patterning bed).
so why doesn't the japanese have the reverse design? there is a very light shadowing, but not the striking pattern i see on passap samples. what am i missing?
it must be easy or i might be slow.


btw, i just got a duo80 (with deco and 4 color changer) and am new to passap. i have japanese machines for 30 years (940, 270, studio, toyota, and a superba i am trying to figure out if it works or if i am just setting it up wrong)


----------



## redgem (Oct 27, 2012)

:sm12:


----------



## classixuk (Jul 16, 2016)

Dear Classixuk - yes, me,

Please don't take up new hobbies when stressed due to a court case; then post on forums like an expert after 4 months experience with the community.

If your solicitors aren't doing a great job; sack them. Nobody needs to feel the brunt of it in a hobby forum.

Place your stress into your knitting, not your online communication.  

Sincerely,
Me.

P.S. Sorry folks! Just came across this post as a google result


----------

