# Full needle rib problems



## jrstuart (Feb 19, 2014)

Good morning everyone!
I am hoping someone can "cast" some light on a very frustrating problem I am having. FNR cast-on.
I created a swatch of full needle rib with color (via a double bed four color changer & KRC punch card) on my KH 860 & KR 850, 
for a scarf for my DD. It was the first time I used the color changer but not this particular yarn. The swatch knit up perfectly and the next day I was excited about starting the project. 
For the swatch I used a 1x1 rib cast on, knit 3" of ribbing then pushed up the out of work needles and started the FNR. As you can imagine I got holes between the 1x1 and FNR. So I decided to skip the ribbing and just cast on for the FNR. 
I had two serious issues.

First: the carriages would jam after the cast on while knitting the FNR (this did not happen at all when I knit the swatch)
Second: it seemed the more I knit the tighter it became. 
Here are the things I did to trouble shot with no good permanent results. 
Not necessarily in this order:
-double checked that the ribber was set on half pitch
the carriages breeze over the empty needles with no problem. 
-checked the tension on the dials and masts
-checked and replace the main bed sponge bar
-examined needles on both beds looking for bent ones etc.
-realigned the ribber and adjusted needle/gate peg alignment 
-removed and reinstalled the fine needle bar several times.
-sprayed a bit of lube on carriages and needles (thank you Answer Lady)
-tried more weights
-made sure ribber cast on comb was not caught up.
-used several different tensions for both the FNR cast on and knitting
-Swapped the main carriage with a spare one I have. 
-Knelt in prayer
-offered up my first born to the knitting gods
-tried a thinner yarn, which was some what better but still way too tight even when I increased tension.
None of this helped. 
I did stop short of hurling the whole machine out the window. 

If it were not for the fact that the swatch knitting up so perfectly I would think that the yarn was too thick. 

Below is the yarn I am using. I put a dime in the pic as a reference. 
Sorry this post is so long. I wanted to include as much information as I could. You can imagine how frustrating this is.
Any ideas, advice, thoughts will be very much appreciated. 
Thank you!!


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## Azzara (Jan 23, 2014)

jrstuart said:


> Good morning everyone!
> I am hoping someone can "cast" some light on a very frustrating problem I am having. FNR cast-on. .........................
> 
> -Knelt in prayer
> ...


Who can think, I am laughing so hard it's a wonder I can type.

ROTFLMAO


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## Tallie9 (Jul 24, 2012)

Assuming from what you said that the yarn is not too thick(FNR swatch was perfect) and the tensions on the dial are appropriate and nothing is restricting the yarn....I'll ask you the following:

When you cast-on your first row...where is your yarn tail?...Is it attached to the machine or a clamp?....Do you release it after knitting the first row?.....If the answer to the second and third question is yes and no respectively....try the following:
Hold the cast-on tail between the beds with your hand for the first row and the put a clothes pin on it and let it just dangle ...continue knitting...
When you attach the tail to the machine....it can tighten the tension on that first knitted row.....and when you don't release the tail after the first row...it can increase the tension in the following rows also...

Oh...and remove the 'fine knit bar'....You only need this if you're using very thin yarn on a '0' to '2' tension setting..


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## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

Are you knitting a birds eye back with your ribbers lili buttens on? Check your ribber manual to be sure your needle arrangement is correct it's easy to forget this one ribber rule. 
This chart shows your yarn is heavy for All needles knitting both beds; http://www.cara4webshopping.com/freebies_for_fun/yarn_weights.htm


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## Azzara (Jan 23, 2014)

Your post was very funny and showed your humor even when so frustrated. My hat is off to you for that and for not throwing your machine out the window.

Did you clean or check the tension disks on the mast? I have had fuzzies build up in there and affect (tighten)the feed tension. The more I knit the worse it got until I caught on and that took longer then I like to admit.

I hold the yarn tail down with my hand for the cast on row then fasten the yarn tail to the ribber comb, into slots made for that. I like the clothes pin idea, we use that for single bed work and it makes sense it would work well for double bed work too.


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## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

Do you have both end needles on the main bed?


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## susanjoy (Aug 13, 2013)

Your yarn my be too thick to knit FNR happily. It may knit a narrow piece but when you try to knit with more needles, it may cause problems.
I had this problem recently. I could knit about 30 stitches OK but when I tried to knit with more needles, the machine could not cope.


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## SteveD (Aug 14, 2012)

jrstuart said:


> Good morning everyone!
> I am hoping someone can "cast" some light on a very frustrating problem I am having. FNR cast-on.
> I created a swatch of full needle rib with color (via a double bed four color changer & KRC punch card) on my KH 860 & KR 850,
> 
> Tis the season for static. Did you try dryer sheets and some humidification of some sort. I've heard that freezing the yarn also helps.


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## jrstuart (Feb 19, 2014)

Tallie9 said:


> Assuming from what you said that the yarn is not too thick(FNR swatch was perfect) and the tensions on the dial are appropriate and nothing is restricting the yarn....I'll ask you the following:
> 
> When you cast-on your first row...where is your yarn tail?...Is it attached to the machine or a clamp?....Do you release it after knitting the first row?.....If the answer to the second and third question is yes and no respectively....try the following:
> Hold the cast-on tail between the beds with your hand for the first row and the put a clothes pin on it and let it just dangle ...continue knitting.....


This why I love this forum so much......
I can't thank you enough.! Much of my sanity is now saved!
This is my first attempt at Multi color FNR and I am determined to understand it and "enjoy" the results and potential for other projects. I've only been MK for two years now and I am still mastering many techniques. I consume the posts from KP every morning before I go to my barn and while feeding, riding/training, I'm thinking about knitting on my KMs.

Here is an update:

Thank you Tallie9: I do put my yarn tails on a clothes pin, however I was not leaving a long enough tail to account for the "uptake" by the tension at the tail end. I assumed any tension issues happened from the yarn feeding end. That solved my cast on problem.
Katewood: My lili buttons were in the right position (but I'm getting strips on the ribber side and not birds eye (not a big deal now) However, based on the yarn weight chart on the link you provided, my yarn is borderline, at best, on the thick side for FNR. 
I did follow the manual and during the fiasco the other day, double checked needle placements several times. 
Last evening, armed with all the suggestions from this forum, I sat down and calmly made another attempt and "success"!!!!!
After casting on I pulled down on the cast on comb slightly when I started my first several rows of actual FNR and that helped quite a bit although I have a lot of weights on the comb. 
I was able to knit about 300 odd rows with no issues. 
I can't wait to finish it and post a picture for everyone. 
Thank you....Thank you...Thank you....!!!!

and thank you to the knitting gods......you'll like my first born and I'll send up her scarf when it's complete.


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## Shirls Purls (Aug 19, 2012)

Hi Jr..
I haven't used my knitting machine in a long time, but when I knitted with a full needle bed, I used "extension rods" on the needle bed... this let me knit right out to the full needle bed..... if you don't have "esxtension rods" you probably are not knitting the full needle bed causing problems?? just my suggestion or thought. ...


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## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

Glad for your success can't wait to see your knit.


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## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

I know you have the machine knitting DJ OK now, but just in case you have managed it by sheer luck remember the following.....
The last needles have to be on the main bed and the ribber needles must be an even number. If you don't remember this the machine will only knit for around 10 rows before the problems start.
To do Bird's eye backing not only do you have to have the lili buttons set but the slide lever must be in the center position.
It's also a good idea to have the tension on the tension rod tight. The wire from the mast should arch over when the sinker plate is threaded.


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## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

Check the gauge on the yarn used, it's sock weight, about 2000 ypp, Must be incredibly soft to manage FNR/DJ.


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## jrstuart (Feb 19, 2014)

Ok... here it is. I took it off the machine on wy because I began to realize that, even thought it was knitting ok, it was way too heavy a fabric for a scarf. However it is for my first attempt at multi color fnr and I am encouraged. 
You were all so right about the weight of the yarn. In fnr it creates a very thick fabric, not at all sure what I would use it for. 
I'm still struggling with yarn weights. There are so many different ways yarn is labeled and referred to. 
I'll have to print out that "cheat sheet" and carry it with me to the yarn shops until I understand it better. 
What weight is good for this type of knitting?
This yarn was very soft and what I considered fairly thin. I know I still have a lot to learn. 
Thank you again everyone!
PS....What do you do with all the floats that run up the side where the color changer is? If you should want to have a somewhat finished edge.


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## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

That is lovely....if it's wide enough you could make a bag out of it.
I only ever use two strands of 2/28 or 2/30 industrial yarn which is classed as a 1ply, I am not sure what you call this over in the USA.
The carried yarn, at the sides, I either catch in when I am sewing the piece up or I put it onto the needles if I am knitting a edge onto it.


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## jrstuart (Feb 19, 2014)

Putting the edge floats into the end needles is great! Of course that would work for a finished edge. Thank you. and thanks for the idea of making a bag out of this "practice" piece. That will be perfect!


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## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

jrstuart said:


> Putting the edge floats into the end needles is great! Of course that would work for a finished edge. Thank you. and thanks for the idea of making a bag out of this "practice" piece. That will be perfect!


If the yarn you have used has a good amount of wool in it you could felt the piece. Obviously the piece will be a lot smaller after it's been felted but you could then cut and sew glass cases; purses; phone cases ETC. DJ felts really well if the yarn content is all right for doing this.


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## dogyear (Nov 17, 2012)

This thread was full of very useful information. It's given me strength to tackle the DJ color changer again!


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## KateWood (Apr 30, 2011)

It's incredible that your nice yarn knit DJ at its 4 ply weight. Have you tried to use the 2nd position on your kr850 with this heavier yarn? You can lower the ribber bed another 2 Millimeters by lifting UP simultaneously on both ribber arms on the KR850/900, not sure about the KR830. The extra 2mm in distance between the N beds makes a considerable difference in your knits tension. 
If the fabric still feels stiff, another Nice option is to select a wide rib needle arrangement on your RB. If you knit that same pattern using 1 X 4 needle arrangement on the RB it will knit a very attractive waffle back fabric. 
For wide rib DJ you won't use the lili option and the bottom lever should be in regular position for knitting rib.


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## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

If you want to knit a sweater (using the same yarn/pattern as you used for this piece) then you could try doing ladder backed DJ.
Ladder Backed DJ makes a much softer/lighter fabric when using a thicker yarn which is more suitable for knitwear. You will find the details for doing this on the following........

http://www.slideshare.net/lornahamiltonbrown/ladderback-jacquard


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## jrstuart (Feb 19, 2014)

That is a big help. Thank you Susieknitter!


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