# Domestic Violence



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

There's a facet to the war on women that we've never discussed in the thread of that name: domestic violence, the brunt of which is borne almost entirely by women.

Nicholas Kristof, in http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/opinion/sunday/kristof-to-end-the-abuse-she-grabbed-a-knife.html?ref=nicholasdkristof&_r=0 , poses a serious riddle, "WHAT strikes one American woman in four and claims a life in the United States every six hours?" The answer is domestic violence. These statistics are disturbing, and women trying to defend themselves can end up being charged with a crime.

This problem not only occurs in poor families or minority families or immigrant families. It runs through every social class and is often masked because the victim is made to feel ashamed and told it's her own fault that her husband/boyfriend beats her.

Here are some questions we can deal with; I'm sure many of you will come up with more:

Do you know any victims of domestic abuse? What have they tried to make it stop?

How have children been affected by seeing one parent beat another?

Is the problem as bad outside the United States, and what have other countries done about it.

If you'd like the entire op-ed posted here, let me know. Right now the discussion is up to you.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

As usual, Kristof wrote a great article. I have a friend who was repeatedly physically attacked by her husband. Her sons who probably witnessed this, have also physically threatened her. So there is the "inheritance" factor of domestic abuse.


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## Alpaca Farmer (Jan 19, 2011)

I am a past victim of domestic violence. Out of it for more than 25 years, but still carry some of the baggage. So do my children, although they do not think they were affected. Help anyone you know who is in the situation. I was so alone and ashamed and didn't know where to go for help. Alcohol was the contributing factor to my ex-husband's violent temper.


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## DonnieK (Nov 23, 2011)

I was also a victim of domestic violence. The first marriage started the day I said "I think I am pregnant" and continued until the night I pulled a gun from the nightstand, eleven years later, and told him if he ever tried to touch me or my children again I would blow him from kingdom come. I was tired of it, but probably would have done nothing until he beat my oldest son. He drew a line for me that very night.

And, yes, it did affect my sons deeply. The oldest especially because he was old enough to remember a lot of the beatings. He still has issues that haunt him. The youngest only remembers a grape juice pitcher as it was thrown at me. He has confronted his issues and has answers for things that happened.

The second was mental abuse. It lasted 3 years and when he came home one day, he found his Bible and his suitcase in the middle of the floor. When he asked what was going on I told him "You came into this marriage with your drawers and your bible and that is how you are going out, so get gone."

When I met the man I eventually married and lived with until he died, the first thing I told him was that if he ever touched me in anger I would flat out kill him and happily do my time. 
I was like Clint Eastwood when he said "Make my day"!

God wants us to forgive, which I have done with the first two. However, he does not expect us to sit idly by while someone continues to abuse us year after year, month after month, day after day and do nothing. The first went on for eleven years. No alchol involved. Just a temper.

I would have never killed any of them, however, they did not know that for sure and did not want to take a chance.
Again, I have told you all I am just a wee bit crazy when my temper goes off which it rarely does, but these two times it did and they were not sure but what I wouldn't pull that trigger.

My advice to anyone who is in an abusive relationship to get out and be quick about it. Have an extra set of keys to the car, pack a bag for yourself and your children and hide it where he can't find it, you don't need but one change of clothes, so take the bare essentials. Have the number of an abuse hotline and let them know you are being abused and they will help you to escape and take you to a "safe house" where he can not find you. The abuse centers can answer all of your questions and help you set a time for departure. 

Please don't be a victim. And, please do not allow your children to be victims.

I will be praying that this post will open someone's eyes and encourage them to get help and leave immediately.
It takes courage, but you can do it.


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## Dreamweaver (Feb 1, 2011)

Many on this site have suffered abuse and have shared their stories at times. Though not as frequent, there are also men who suffer abuse and this is almost more traumatic and shameful for them, as they are "supposed" to be the strong ones. The eroded self confidence stops many from getting help, but there are so many more places available now... As hard as it may seem, have faith, get up and GO. you will be helped.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Alpaca Farmer brings up an important point.....alcohol. It's a common link.

I've seen treatment work, but not for everyone.

Our arsenal of Restraining Orders, 911 calls, filing charges leaves much to be desired.

Judging by the numbers, it's time to re-evaluate and change.



Alpaca Farmer said:


> I am a past victim of domestic violence. Out of it for more than 25 years, but still carry some of the baggage. So do my children, although they do not think they were affected. Help anyone you know who is in the situation. I was so alone and ashamed and didn't know where to go for help. Alcohol was the contributing factor to my ex-husband's violent temper.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Great topic for us--thanks for starting it. It will be very enlightening to find out how the world handles this problem. In the US, the solution seems to be a restraining order, to keep the perpetrator away from the victim. This is a court ordered piece of paper. If he does not comply, the police are supposed to enforce it. I have never heard of a perpetrator complying with this court order, or the police enforcing one for that matter. Many years ago, I worked with a sweet, 20 something young woman, with 4 little children, who was abused physically, and/or mentally, every day. She finally got a restraining order and filed for divorce. When she got home from work, her husband was waiting for her on the front porch, restraining order in hand, and blew her head off with a shot gun. He was free on bond for quite awhile before he was finally sent to prison for only 5 years. Years later, while in the courthouse, I saw a young woman filling out the paper work for a restraining order. I said, "Excuse me miss, but you are trying to get a piece of worthless paper to protect you. Believe me, what you need is a gun." The clerk behind the desk immediately agreed with me. I wonder how many women, granted restraining orders, she saw end up dead. Women in this country, trying to get away from an abuser, are hog tied from the beginning. Even if they can get away and hide somewhere, they are required to give their address and phone number to the court and lawyers, which is then printed on the paper work for divorce or restraining orders.

So many times, women who are sheltering with relatives, end up dead along with their relatives. Why life in prison, or the death penalty does not apply when wives and girfriends are the victims, I can't imagine. Women who kill their abuser in self defense, often do more prison time than the killers. I had hoped, as more women were elected judges and lawmakers, that this situation would change, but it hasn't. A few years ago, a woman judge was shot and killed by her policeman husband while she sat on the bench. Guess what changed? Now everyone who enters the courthouse has to go through security like the airport--except the police, lawyers, and judges. They are allowed to protect themselves, but the women that have to use the courthouse to protect themselves, are not. So, a woman's attorney can protect himself from his client's violent husband, but the woman cannot. The judges and lawyers can keep their address secret, but the women cannot. If a woman takes her children and tries to hide, she is charged with parental abduction and the children are given to the abuser, while she does time in jail. This so called justice system is insane in the US. I hope to see here, that other countries are more evolved.


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## GinB (Sep 2, 2012)

Domestic violence includes physical abuse, but also includes verbal, emotional, mental and financial abuse.

We who have been through it have learned how to pick our battles. It took me 11 years to leave and 5 additional years before I got my head back on straight.

What a sad state of affairs this country is in with regard to domestic abuse!


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## gillian lorraine (Aug 18, 2011)

This is such an important but so very sad topic, I am a very lucky woman and have never suffered ill treatment in my marriage.
The thing I find so awful is that the victim gets persuaded that somehow it is their fault, and tries to explain the badness away.
We have a T.V. advert here in the UK at present about how rape with a person who does not want sex is indeed rape ( it is shown between a man and woman in a relationship -- not the rape of a stranger) the actress is brilliant and you can see her loss of self esteem and inability to be able to make the decision to walk away for ever!!


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

GinB said:


> Domestic violence includes physical abuse, but also includes verbal, emotional, mental and financial abuse.
> 
> We who have been through it have learned how to pick our battles. It took me 11 years to leave and 5 additional years before I got my head back on straight.
> 
> What a sad state of affairs this country is in with regard to domestic abuse!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

gillian lorraine said:


> This is such an important but so very sad topic, I am a very lucky woman and have never suffered ill treatment in my marriage.
> The thing I find so awful is that the victim gets persuaded that somehow it is their fault, and tries to explain the badness away.
> We have a T.V. advert here in the UK at present about how rape with a person who does not want sex is indeed rape ( it is shown between a man and woman in a relationship -- not the rape of a stranger) the actress is brilliant and you can see her loss of self esteem and inability to be able to make the decision to walk away for ever!!


Yes, it is well known that victims of domestic violence, like victims or rape, for some odd reason, feel the shame and guilt that the perpetrator should feel. Unlike, rape victims though, these women are also in love with their partner. Most will hide it, even from their families and best friends, who are shocked when the victim ends up dead. (He was always such a nice guy).

I knew a woman who was beaten so badly, her tail bone was kicked off. She told the hospital she fell down the stairs. Hospitals see a lot of women who "fall down stairs". Doctors know better, but still confer with the "nice" husbands and everyone pretends that they don't know what is going on.

Usually, these women will cover up until he starts abusing their children. Of course, nobody believes Mr. Nice Guy would abuse anyone, so she is then in the battle of her life to save the children.

Currently, in my state, there have been several cases of children being tortured and killed by their mother's husbands and boyfriends. Child protective services is beginning to be alarmed (as per the news report). They don't understand this current trend. Really???? When society and the authorities ignore violence toward women who do they think will be the next victims? Sadly, the mothers of these children are also criminally charged with not protecting their children, even if they were not present when the children were abused and killed. In my opinion, every time the law ignores violence against women, they are setting this children up for the same abuse.

It seems so simple for people to say, "just walk away". I would like them to outline how this can be done. These women are not allowed resources or freedom to do anything. If they can somehow get to the authorities, there is no real protection. The man denies everything, is right back home within hours....and then what do you think he does?


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

If you are a woman (or man) contemplating leaving an abusive relationship, please try to put copies of legal documents into that suggested get-away suitcase. These documents would be a marriage license, birth certificates, loan origination documents proving ownership of cars, houses, land, commercial buildings, account numbers for checking and savings accounts, medical and dental records, copies of prescriptions for important medications, social security cards, and passports. 

The original documents are best but an abuser may guard the originals and your life is more valuable than those pieces of paper. Documents missing from a file or safe box could alert an abuser to your plans.

All of these documents are important for enrolling children in new schools, in getting financial support to begin a new life away from the abuser. Copies may not be accepted by some governmental agencies. The copy will give the name of the issuing agency and number of the document (i.e., the state of birth and birth certificate number), making it easier to get a certified copy of the original document.

Make a list of important name, phone numbers and addresses . Your relatives, doctors, stock brokers, accountant, business partners, other important people. Do not call these people yourself if you going into hiding. Your abuser could use these people to trace you. A lawyer will find some of this information very useful in tracking assets.

Once you leave - do not think about going back. An abuser's promises of better behavior are worthless. If you begin to vacillate when you remember the 'good times' and need a reason to stay strong, here is a reason - make a promise to me you will not go back. Stay strong and keep your promise to me. I am tired of attending funerals for women who capitulated to an abuser's promise of better behavior.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

mojave said:


> If you are a woman (or man) contemplating leaving an abusive relationship, please try to put copies of legal documents into that suggested get-away suitcase. These documents would be a marriage license, birth certificates, loan origination documents proving ownership of cars, houses, land, commercial buildings, account numbers for checking and savings accounts, medical and dental records, copies of prescriptions for important medications, social security cards, and passports.
> 
> The original documents are best but an abuser may guard the originals and your life is more valuable than those pieces of paper. Documents missing from a file or safe box could alert an abuser to your plans.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: This is excellent advice, but probably not feasible in most cases. These kinds of men hide assets and all the important papers and make sure the woman has no access to money. If she tries to shelter with friends or relatives, they will also be in danger. If she tries to make plans, be sure it is on a phone he doesn't know about because this kind of man will always be checking her calls.

NEVER going back, is the very best advice. He will always revert to being the man she fell in love with. Unbelievably, most of these women will go back 3 times because they want so badly to believe the man they love is sincere. Unfortunately, many never get the opportunity to get away a second, or third time.


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## karchy (Nov 28, 2012)

This is a subject very close to my heart. 
I was in an emotionally abusive marriage for 16 years or so. We DID split about 12 years into the marriage but I was bullied by his parents and the military welfare people to take him back, I was quite ill at the time and they ALL convinced me that I couldn't possibly cope on my own and if I refused to take him back THEY would make sure he got custody of the kids wether I wanted that or not. So I bowed under pressure and took him back for him to be even more abusive than before, he was very smart and never laid a finger on me or the kids (whilst I was around, I found out later he would slap my youngest making an example of her to the other 2 when I was not at home, ie hospital appointments doctor appointments etc) 
I eventually caught him cheating on me yet again and found out that he had cheated on me throughout the whole marriage so divorced him, he continually tried to mentally abuse me and the children throughout the whole divorce proceedings.

Oops hit send too early

What I wanted to add was that a leopard very rarely changes it's spots, he was with another partner and did the same to her as he did to me their child together is now in the care system. He is now getting remarried in a few months to someone else, I wish her all the luck in the world, she's going to need it.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

First of all, I believe someone who gets up the nerve to speak to someone they think is the victim of domestic abuse is a hero. Whoever reads this post and thinks someone they know is in an abusive situation, talk to them. Be brave. You may well save a life.

One of the classic explanations for bruises and marks is to say one was clumsy and walked into a door, or some such thing. I am actually clumsy and have walked into doors and various pieces of furniture with sharp edges. It's a very rare thing that I don't have visible bruises. I also have half a dozen scars on my forearms from cooking that are very visible, and all from my own clumsiness.Twice in my life so far, two women have spoken to me about being abused. It was very hard to get them to believe I really was clumsy but I managed, and thanked them profusely for having the guts to approach me.

I had a housemate who threw a screwdriver at me and knicked my cheek. I called my father (I was only 20 at the time and I have a close family) and he and my large, muscular brother came over and took him away. Away to where? I didn't care then and I don't care now. I think the moral of this little story is that no one should tolerate any abuse, and if there is an abusive incident, jump on it and fix it. There are many kinds of abuse in many kinds of relationships and many fixes, but it's worth finding the right fix and putting it into effect.

I spent 2 years, in 4th and 5th grades, with an abusive elementary school teacher. Her forms of abusive were primarily verbal, intellectual and emotional but she occasionally got physical. I could have told my parents about this at any time during those two years. I still don't quite understand why I didn't except to say I think children tend to keep their own counsel because they know they are dependent in innumerable ways. However, I could have told my parents and I knew they would take my side.

The fireworks that exploded when I finally told my parents about what was going on were truly impressive and effective. It turned out that there was a parents' committee trying to get this teacher fired but they were having a very hard time because she had tenure. This teacher had a track record of abusing students for four years and about 14 children. She quit at the end of the second year of my experience with her and went to live in another city where she became a model teacher and won lots of awards. I like to think her experience with my father was especially transformative for her. 

As the story goes, he backed her into a corner and explained to her in no uncertain terms that the only reason he wasn't going to beat her to death was because she was pregnant, and he explained in no uncertain terms how she would treat me from that moment on. Now, my father wouldn't have laid a hand on her no matter what, but he was very convincing. The change in her treatment of me and the two other students in my class who were her special targets was an extremely night and day thing. The moral of this little story is that people in positions of power and authority over people who are much weaker than them have to be monitored unceasingly.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to abide being in classrooms since then. I've had to force myself into every one since then in order to get the education I was either legally required to get and the education I very much wanted for my own sake. This seems like a good example of the lasting damage that can come from abuse. Teachers aren't part of one's home, but children are trapped with them in a room where the doors are closed and whatever goes on in there may well be kept a secret.

Many of my contemporaries were abused as children. This isn't surprising to me because they were all people who left their families far, far, far behind and jumped into the 60s life, and the 60s folk music revival in particular with both feet. I wouldn't have met them, and learned something about how common abuse is, if I hadn't been swimming happily in the deep end of that particular folk music world.

I can't really begin to tell you about the abuse I've seen a couple of former friends inflict on their children except to say that they aren't people I know anymore and proper authorities were brought into the situations. 

And, lastly, these may be way off topic, but there is also abuse in employee-employer relationships. And let's not forget acquaintance rape which can happen in a place one considers part of their home.

Conclusion(s)? Human beings are violent by nature and non-violent by nurture. Not only do we have to monitor our relationships with others, we have to be willing and able to look at ourselves.

Sorry this is so long, but I guess I wanted to say a lot of different things in one post. It looks to me like I went from talking about domestic abuse to talking about abuse in other kinds of intimate relationships.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Keeping a personal diary and keeping it very well-hidden can help when other documents can't be gotten.


kathycam said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: This is excellent advice, but probably not feasible in most cases. These kinds of men hide assets and all the important papers and make sure the woman has no access to money. If she tries to shelter with friends or relatives, they will also be in danger. If she tries to make plans, be sure it is on a phone he doesn't know about because this kind of man will always be checking her calls.
> 
> NEVER going back, is the very best advice. He will always revert to being the man she fell in love with. Unbelievably, most of these women will go back 3 times because they want so badly to believe the man they love is sincere. Unfortunately, many never get the opportunity to get away a second, or third time.


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## GinB (Sep 2, 2012)

By *all *means, bring any necessary documents *with* you.

I couldn't bring everything at the time and, you guessed it, he had a "shredding party" and even bragged about it to family and friends. One of the things that was included (that I cannot duplicate) were documents that proved a former employer (a sole proprietor) made deductions for FICA, etc...and kept the money for himself. He has since moved out of state...is it any wonder???

Do you know what put a smile on my face at the time? His sons/wives AND his ex-wife gave me letters when I left, letting me know how proud they were of me. Let him put that in his pipe and smoke it!!!


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## MissNettie (Dec 15, 2012)

There have been several mentions of restraining orders. As an attorney (no longer very active in that field), I can tell you that a restraining order, at least in my experience, is not worth the paper it is written on. The people who are supposedly "restrained" ignore them, the courts do nothing about violations of them (unless you are extremely wealthy and influential) and they are virtually impossible to get if any situation except divorce or custody battles and they still do not do any good.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Maid - thanks as always for sharing your story and insights. I came from an abusive household and had to leave the state eventually to cope. It was funny that you mentioned joining up in the '60s movements. I did totally but my parents were there with me so it was no real escape. My abusive sib and I are very close now and share all the same interests. So my story ended well. And I love NYC. But I wonder how my life would have been different if I did not have to leave town for my sanity or what remained of it.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Maid--Abuse is abuse no matter the victim or the perpetrator. Teacher tenure is another sad example of injustice in this country. There was a teacher in my grandson's school who was openly very abusive, even physically, which is illegal in this state. She couldn't be gotten rid of because of tenure. After years of trying, the principal quit. How could anyone stand to see this teacher manhandling a student in the hallway and not be able to do anything? As far as I know, that teacher is still there.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

MissNettie said:


> There have been several mentions of restraining orders. As an attorney (no longer very active in that field), I can tell you that a restraining order, at least in my experience, is not worth the paper it is written on. The people who are supposedly "restrained" ignore them, the courts do nothing about violations of them (unless you are extremely wealthy and influential) and they are virtually impossible to get if any situation except divorce or custody battles and they still do not do any good.


And yet, it is the first thing lawyers do when a woman needs help. They seem to neglect to tell people that it is not worth the paper it is written on. Restraining orders should come with a gun and the police force and the courts need to enforce them with serious jail time.


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## lneighbors3 (Oct 19, 2011)

I am blessed that I had very strong female figures in my life, and they were outspoken about not ever allowing myself to become a victim. My first husband once drew back his arm like he was going to hit me. I never moved as I told him to go ahead. But, I told him to be sure to never go to sleep in the same house with me again because if he woke up at all it would be in the hospital. And, I meant it from the bottom of my heart. Needless to say, that marriage did not last.

Having children makes a huge difference, and I never had to worry about that. My father was an alcoholic who only hit my mother one time. My little brother (who was only 10 at the time) tried to take his head off with a baseball bat while I called the police. My mother pressed charges, and he got to see what the city jail looked like. We had it rough financially after that, but we never had to worry about violence anymore.

Lynne


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Alpaca Farmer said:


> I am a past victim of domestic violence. Out of it for more than 25 years, but still carry some of the baggage. So do my children, although they do not think they were affected. Help anyone you know who is in the situation. I was so alone and ashamed and didn't know where to go for help. Alcohol was the contributing factor to my ex-husband's violent temper.


Alpaca Farmer, you're quite a survivor. How did you manage to get out on your own?

Alcohol, or drug use in general, is often to blame for horrific behavior, but it's no excuse.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I imagine abuse is either a learned behavior, a behavior of unstable people, or genetic. The alcohol is usually the fuel that allows the demon to escape.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DonnieK said:


> I was also a victim of domestic violence. The first marriage started the day I said "I think I am pregnant" and continued until the night I pulled a gun from the nightstand, eleven years later, and told him if he ever tried to touch me or my children again I would blow him from kingdom come. I was tired of it, but probably would have done nothing until he beat my oldest son. He drew a line for me that very night.
> 
> And, yes, it did affect my sons deeply. The oldest especially because he was old enough to remember a lot of the beatings. He still has issues that haunt him. The youngest only remembers a grape juice pitcher as it was thrown at me. He has confronted his issues and has answers for things that happened.
> 
> ...


DonnieK, you're amazing. Your avatar shows you as a mild-mannered, dog-loving little old lady (a phrase I don't consider to be an insult), but you're a tiger, at least where your children are concerned.

The advice you give other sufferers is excellent. How long did you put up with the abuse before you figured out you could just up and leave, or force the abuser to leave? (I love the picture of #2's suitcase and Bible packed ready to go.)


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

For some crazy reason, I imagine that the"make up" sex is so good that it entraps the women who then forget about their broken ribs. I have read that there is a cycle of fight and great sex afterwards.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Dreamweaver said:


> Many on this site have suffered abuse and have shared their stories at times. Though not as frequent, there are also men who suffer abuse and this is almost more traumatic and shameful for them, as they are "supposed" to be the strong ones. The eroded self confidence stops many from getting help, but there are so many more places available now... As hard as it may seem, have faith, get up and GO. you will be helped.


I've noticed the number of women here who allude to past abuse, or even discuss it outright. Men are less likely, as you point out, because they'd think of themselves as weaklings if a woman pushed them around.

I'd be interested to hear what some of our men have to say on this subject.

Come to think of it, is abuse among same-sex couples anything like as common as it is among hetero couples?

If you know of any websites that would be of help to sufferers of either sex, or any organizations, would you mind posting them?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Alpaca Farmer brings up an important point.....alcohol. It's a common link.
> 
> I've seen treatment work, but not for everyone.
> 
> ...


Kristof's article talks about a program that's like AA or NA called Men Stopping Violence, but I wonder how well it could work. It can take years for an AA member to feel s/he's truly in recovery. The spouse and children of an abuser don't have that kind of time.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Kathycam, your message has so much meat in it that I can't respond to all of it. The stories you tell should be taken to heart by women who think they can just stick around, or believe the justice system will help them, because chances are it won't. 

Thanks for all of your input.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

GinB said:


> Domestic violence includes physical abuse, but also includes verbal, emotional, mental and financial abuse.
> 
> We who have been through it have learned how to pick our battles. It took me 11 years to leave and 5 additional years before I got my head back on straight.
> 
> What a sad state of affairs this country is in with regard to domestic abuse!


GinB, I'm surprised it took only 5 years to straighten out, after 11 years of someone trying to tear you down. Did you have children to worry about, too?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

gillian lorraine said:


> This is such an important but so very sad topic, I am a very lucky woman and have never suffered ill treatment in my marriage.
> The thing I find so awful is that the victim gets persuaded that somehow it is their fault, and tries to explain the badness away.
> We have a T.V. advert here in the UK at present about how rape with a person who does not want sex is indeed rape ( it is shown between a man and woman in a relationship -- not the rape of a stranger) the actress is brilliant and you can see her loss of self esteem and inability to be able to make the decision to walk away for ever!!


Gillian, the abuser counts on the victim's tendency to accept blame for the abuse. Couples get together because they love each other, so the victim is protective of the abuser.

Congratulations on having picked a winner. My winner and I just had our 50th anniversary, and there isn't a scar on either of us. But I can't help worrying about those who haven't been so lucky.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

kathycam said:


> Yes, it is well known that victims of domestic violence, like victims or rape, for some odd reason, feel the shame and guilt that the perpetrator should feel. Unlike, rape victims though, these women are also in love with their partner. Most will hide it, even from their families and best friends, who are shocked when the victim ends up dead. (He was always such a nice guy).
> 
> I knew a woman who was beaten so badly, her tail bone was kicked off. She told the hospital she fell down the stairs. Hospitals see a lot of women who "fall down stairs". Doctors know better, but still confer with the "nice" husbands and everyone pretends that they don't know what is going on.
> 
> ...


Kathycam, you've given a lot of thought to this subject. Are you a professional in the field or just a very observant onlooker?

It's true that children are at risk wherever an abuser is allowed to stay at home. Some of the women here have said they put up with the abuse until the abuser started on the children.

Unfortunately, even then some women will stay in the relationship because they've become so dependent on having a man around to tell them what to do. This makes it essential to have friends they can speak to for moral support, though many abusers try to prevent their victims from forming friendships.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Women are beginning to understand the dynamic. A long row to hoe.




gillian lorraine said:


> This is such an important but so very sad topic, I am a very lucky woman and have never suffered ill treatment in my marriage.
> The thing I find so awful is that the victim gets persuaded that somehow it is their fault, and tries to explain the badness away.
> We have a T.V. advert here in the UK at present about how rape with a person who does not want sex is indeed rape ( it is shown between a man and woman in a relationship -- not the rape of a stranger) the actress is brilliant and you can see her loss of self esteem and inability to be able to make the decision to walk away for ever!!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for taking time to detail the domestic abuse issue.



MaidInBedlam said:


> First of all, I believe someone who gets up the nerve to speak to someone they think is the victim of domestic abuse is a hero. Whoever reads this post and thinks someone they know is in an abusive situation, talk to them. Be brave. You may well save a life.
> 
> One of the classic explanations for bruises and marks is to say one was clumsy and walked into a door, or some such thing. I am actually clumsy and have walked into doors and various pieces of furniture with sharp edges. It's a very rare thing that I don't have visible bruises. I also have half a dozen scars on my forearms from cooking that are very visible, and all from my own clumsiness.Twice in my life so far, two women have spoken to me about being abused. It was very hard to get them to believe I really was clumsy but I managed, and thanked them profusely for having the guts to approach me.
> 
> ...


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

mojave said:


> If you are a woman (or man) contemplating leaving an abusive relationship, please try to put copies of legal documents into that suggested get-away suitcase. These documents would be a marriage license, birth certificates, loan origination documents proving ownership of cars, houses, land, commercial buildings, account numbers for checking and savings accounts, medical and dental records, copies of prescriptions for important medications, social security cards, and passports.
> 
> The original documents are best but an abuser may guard the originals and your life is more valuable than those pieces of paper. Documents missing from a file or safe box could alert an abuser to your plans.
> 
> ...


Mojave, thanks for this excellent practical advice and for your offer of a good reason to get out of a bad relationship. I have nothing really to add, but I wanted an excuse to have your message repeat on a later page to make sure everyone sees it.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Numbers from the documents can be helpful. Most of all, call a Domestic Abuse Hotline. They can provide you with current information and assistance. My only advice? Don't delay. You may not get another chance.



MaidInBedlam said:


> Keeping a personal diary and keeping it very well-hidden can help when other documents can't be gotten.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And Restraining Orders tend to further enrage the perpetrator. Not a good thing.



MissNettie said:


> There have been several mentions of restraining orders. As an attorney (no longer very active in that field), I can tell you that a restraining order, at least in my experience, is not worth the paper it is written on. The people who are supposedly "restrained" ignore them, the courts do nothing about violations of them (unless you are extremely wealthy and influential) and they are virtually impossible to get if any situation except divorce or custody battles and they still do not do any good.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think sanity is vastly over-rated.



SQM said:


> Maid - thanks as always for sharing your story and insights. I came from an abusive household and had to leave the state eventually to cope. It was funny that you mentioned joining up in the '60s movements. I did totally but my parents were there with me so it was no real escape. My abusive sib and I are very close now and share all the same interests. So my story ended well. And I love NYC. But I wonder how my life would have been different if I did not have to leave town for my sanity or what remained of it.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My guess is MYTH on that one....made up by someone who's never known great sex.



SQM said:


> For some crazy reason, I imagine that the"make up" sex is so good that it entraps the women who then forget about their broken ribs. I have read that there is a cycle of fight and great sex afterwards.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Kristof's article talks about a program that's like AA or NA called Men Stopping Violence, but I wonder how well it could work. It can take years for an AA member to feel s/he's truly in recovery. The spouse and children of an abuser don't have that kind of time.


I was talking about treatment for alcohol/drug abuse. Men Stopping Violence should only come into the picture when the objects of abuse are safe. IMHO


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

Unless you know us, you probably will not know her name without doing some looking. If what I post helps anyone, then it is worth the words and the posting that is all out there on the web. My children are grown, college educated, and they are GOOD people. I raised them will. If I had been able to get them to listen, they probably would have put him under the jail.

My ex and I and children went to church nearly every Sunday. He worked with the youth group at the church, and seldom missed a function. He was a very 'good' man.

You think I have been watching too much 'Criminal Minds'?

He was abusive at home to me, and to put it politely, he molested the two elder of our three children: elder son, and daughter. I did not know about the kids, until we were at the shelter, and my precious three year old daughter decided to tell me all about; since, we were not going home to mean daddy any more. I thought I was going to pass out. To this day, he denies it. He lives in another state and has remarried; no children in the home. The other wife knows that I said he did something, but of course it was all made up as he is such a 'Good Christian Man'. At my divorce hearing, I received supervised visitation for him with his parents supervising. My daughter was hospitalized for the PTSD due to him. I had a restraining order from her doctor. The Easter before she went into the hospital was a court ordered visitation even though the doctor did not want her to see him; the judge said that if they did not go, I would be thrown in jail. So, they went for the Easter extended weekend. She came home and went into the hospital the next day for six months when she was five years old. My eldest son, was in the hospital for six weeks. We had therapy for three years. She is now nearly thirty-one; and we have not seen him since.

I hope this will help. If there is a battered women's shelter consult with them. My three children and I stayed in the local shelter for 2 1/2 weeks when I left my abusive husband.

If your abuser is dangerous, you may need assistance from several people to get out of the house. Do not wait for him to loose it and shoot you all to keep you from leaving. It may take friends to intervene, and sneak you and your children to a shelter when he is at work. Maybe even in another town. You may even have to get away and change your appearance. To get a divorce, a lawyer needs to be consulted immediately due to the time required to live in a community to file the papers. There is also the issue of 'kidnapping' the children if you try to run. It is much easier to prove if she has called the police to intervene in any of the instances of abuse. The children may need to see a therapist to support her allocations of his abuse. It is her word against his unless there is so back up support. BELIEVE ME, it is not easy. He will try to put the blame on you, and the judge will be mad for you staying in the marriage. We were raised to stay married. The children ''needed both parents''. [Not true. If the children are with one good parent, they are better than with two who are fighting all the time or where one is abused.]

I spent my tenth anniversary alone. It was the best.

There was a woman in her forties there, that traveled from one shelter to another. She had to totally give up her children to be free of him. The children would tell him where she was if they saw her. She was alone and totally dependent on the help and support of the network of shelters to be safe and alive.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

My Precious Wright - your story chilled me to the bone. I am so sorry you and the kids had that horrendous experience. It reminded me of all the ultra-religious pols who are anti-gay and then are found with a gay lover. So many of the super religious types are the biggest hypocrites.

I have a daughter who will be 31 next month so your story struck such a chord with me. 

Hoping you and your family are experiencing better things now. Was the RAT ever held culpable for his crimes?


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## ruth Roxanne (Mar 18, 2012)

kathycam said:


> Maid--Abuse is abuse no matter the victim or the perpetrator. Teacher tenure is another sad example of injustice in this country. There was a teacher in my grandson's school who was openly very abusive, even physically, which is illegal in this state. She couldn't be gotten rid of because of tenure. After years of trying, the principal quit. How could anyone stand to see this teacher manhandling a student in the hallway and not be able to do anything? As far as I know, that teacher is still there.


My daughter had a teacher like that. I made a fuss all year. Finally I heard that the next year she had been transferred to another school building and had to have an aide watching her at all times when students were in the room. Sickening that she still had a job! Years later, almost 15 years, my daughter told me that that teacher had hit another girl and gave her a black eye. Her father had been blamed for it, sadly. The teacher told my daughter not to tell or she would do the same thing to DD. What a thing for a child to live with! It still makes my blood boil another 12 years later!


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## Alpaca Farmer (Jan 19, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Alpaca Farmer, you're quite a survivor. How did you manage to get out on your own?
> 
> Alcohol, or drug use in general, is often to blame for horrific behavior, but it's no excuse.


Back during the course of my marriage, there was very little help or shelters for victims. I lived in a small town, and the police would just keep an eye out for the drunks as they left the bar, follow them home, and make sure they shut off the car. They didn't follow them inside to see what happened next. The few times I did call the police, they would come in the house and tell him to just lay down and go to sleep. Things will be better in the morning. And of course, he minded that (not!) I stayed for 20 years, beginning divorce proceedings twice during that time and not following through because he would promise to change, and I would believe it. There was emotional abuse as well as financial abuse, along with the physical. There were times that I had to sneak his wallet out of his back pocket when he was passed out so that I could get some money for groceries. The last time he beat me was on New Year's eve, 1984. The kids had to run out the back door to the neighbors and call the cops. Finally I had the courage to put him out for good. People who have never been in those shoes do not understand how a victim can be so emotionally numb, and not have enough self esteem left to get help or get out. It is so demoralizing, and he would say that he would take my kids away, and I believed it. Also that he would kill me if I left, and I believed it. There were times when he would pass out at the kitchen table, and I would walk behind him with my cast iron frying pan in my hand and wish I had the guts to hit him in the head with it. The only thing that stopped me was knowing that my kids wouldn't have any parent then. If it was me alone, I would have sat in jail, it could not have been any worse. 
Yes, the scars are still there. Sometimes they hurts, sometimes they bleed. But with each passing day, it becomes more like a bad movie. He died last year, at age 68, of a massive heart attack. Thank God that I had the opportunity to go to the hospital and tell him that I forgave him. It also lightened my burden. 
He was never there for the kids, but they are good people and they gave him a very nice funeral, and I commend them for that. There are 12 grandchildren, and at least half of them have never met him. His loss because they are very special children.
Please, please, in the name of all that is Holy, help anyone you know who is in a similar situation. Or if you cannot do something yourself, tell someone who can. Do not let any more people die of domestic violence. And dying does not have to be death of the body, it can be death of the joy of life, death of hope, death of knowing how to love. No one deserves that.

And the following years were not easy. I had a nervous breakdown, I had 5 children, a full time job. Full custody of the kids because he never asked for shared. He lived 6 blocks away, but would not visit the kids. The only restriction for him to visit was that he had to be sober.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> My guess is MYTH on that one....made up by someone who's never known great sex.


I don't think it is a myth. The abuser abuses, sobers up a bit, promises never to do it again, "love", drinks again, ad nauseum. I think this is a typical pattern in abuse cases.


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## Alpaca Farmer (Jan 19, 2011)

SQM said:


> I don't think it is a myth. The abuser abuses, sobers up a bit, promises never to do it again, "love", drinks again, ad nauseum. I think this is a typical pattern in abuse cases.


This is not a typical pattern. There is nothing great about sex when you feel coerced into it to keep the peace. Please don't make these assumptions. Unless a person has walked that path, they cannot judge.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I guess I have watched too many Hollywood versions of domestic violence. I am in no way minimizing anyone's awful experiences. I am not a victim of spousal abuse but of parent/sibling abuse so I was on the path to hell.


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

SQM said:


> My Precious Wright - your story chilled me to the bone. I am so sorry you and the kids had that horrendous experience. It reminded me of all the ultra-religious pols who are anti-gay and then are found with a gay lover. So many of the super religious types are the biggest hypocrites.
> 
> I have a daughter who will be 31 next month so your story struck such a chord with me.
> 
> Hoping you and your family are experiencing better things now. Was the RAT ever held culpable for his crimes?


No. He took a job out of state. There was enough belief that he had supervised visitation. He chose not to see them after the restraining order ran out. I had one for a year while the kids were in the hospital. I do not know the details of the order, except that it kept him away for a year, and he did not exercise his visitation after that. The kids never wanted to be left alone with him.

He told me to put the youngest up for adoption as there are no retards in his family. Well, he's my baby. I did the ot, pt, apnea monitor, seizure meds, reflux so bad he'd turn blue; everything I needed to do to help him. He is currently working on a PH.D. in Chemical Engineering. She's a teacher. The eldest has a M.S. in Computer Engineering and works for one of the major computer companies.

The divorce was final when the youngest was fifteen months; my daughter was four; and my eldest son was six.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Your children sound magnificent. Clearly you did a great job. Did you remarry? It bugs me that the ass got away with it. Oh well. He is dead, most certainly dead like the munchkins would say. The soil is too good for him.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

kwright said:


> Unless you know us, you probably will not know her name without doing some looking. If what I post helps anyone, then it is worth the words and the posting that is all out there on the web. My children are grown, college educated, and they are GOOD people. I raised them will. If I had been able to get them to listen, they probably would have put him under the jail.
> 
> My ex and I and children went to church nearly every Sunday. He worked with the youth group at the church, and seldom missed a function. He was a very 'good' man.
> 
> ...


kwright, thank you for your openness in telling us a difficult story. Your ex was the worst kind of abuser (maybe not because he didn't kill anyone). I'm wondering how he can even tolerate living in a home with no children, given his taste in "partners". God bless all of them, but exp. the little one who told you what he was doing.

Did your kids get therapy? To be abused by the person who's supposed to protect you must be unbelievably painful. You're well away from him.


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

He is still alive in Georgia.

When my youngest was a senior in high school, on parent night, I ran into my friend from kindergarten. He proposed then. We went out once at eighteen, but I was told that I would not be allowed to date the retired boss's grandson. It would be hard on my dad. We started dating after parent night. It still took three more years to marry. My mother still would not allow it. She finally said yes as his mother was dying of cancer. His mom was waiting on us to get married. We married and have been for six years. He has his moments, but his ex was abusive to him. She was bi-polar. She kicked my elder stepson out when he was twelve. He is abusive to me when he is in the house. Now, he lives in west Texas. We see him maybe three times a year. I told my DH that since his son is so needy of his attention, I recommended that he meet him half way at the family farm, and spend time together. I had to call the police on my stepson once. He resents that his dad married me and does not include me or my children as part of 'his family'. I have since found out that the younger son was also emotionally abused by his mom and step-father. They are both grown. The younger is a good kid.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

kwright said:


> No. He took a job out of state. There was enough belief that he had supervised visitation. He chose not to see them after the restraining order ran out. I had one for a year while the kids were in the hospital. I do not know the details of the order, except that it kept him away for a year, and he did not exercise his visitation after that. The kids never wanted to be left alone with him.
> 
> He told me to put the youngest up for adoption as there are no retards in his family. Well, he's my baby. I did the ot, pt, apnea monitor, seizure meds, reflux so bad he'd turn blue; everything I needed to do to help him. He is currently working on a PH.D. in Chemical Engineering. She's a teacher. The eldest has a M.S. in Computer Engineering and works for one of the major computer companies.
> 
> The divorce was final when the youngest was fifteen months; my daughter was four; and my eldest son was six.


You really are well away from him. They probably wouldn't be half as accomplished if he'd been around, Mr. No-Retards-in-My-Family. You must be so proud of them. And you can give yourself a round of applause for doing so well as a single mother.


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> kwright, thank you for your openness in telling us a difficult story. Your ex was the worst kind of abuser (maybe not because he didn't kill anyone). I'm wondering how he can even tolerate living in a home with no children, given his taste in "partners". God bless all of them, but exp. the little one who told you what he was doing.
> 
> Did your kids get therapy? To be abused by the person who's supposed to protect you must be unbelievably painful. You're well away from him.


My daughter was in hospital for PTSD for six months. My elder son was in for six weeks until his insurance ran out for the in hospital portion. I do not understand it all. Afterwards, we went to therapy every week for three years. They kept changing therapist. One day, they looked at the new therapist as asked why they had to rehash it? Every time there was a new person, they had to retell it. Why couldn't they read the folder! With that, they released them. They were 6, 9, and 11. I think I did a good job raising them. They are good people.

My eldest has two children 3 and 6. My GD is slightly autistic and ADHD. She gets it honestly; her dad and his siblings are all dyslexic. Both boys are ADD. Life is never dull.


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

My ex always promised to stop. It did for a while. He did threaten to shoot me if I ever tried to leave. He had marksman metals from ROTC. He said that he would never let me have the kids. I could not bring myself to leave until he beat her with the belt. I still functioned under the myth that we were supposed to stay married, and that the children needed both parents. I found out later that most women can't leave until they see their children in danger.

A doctor told me later, that children raised by one parent are better than two when they are fight or don't get along.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Alpaca Farmer said:


> Back during the course of my marriage, there was very little help or shelters for victims. I lived in a small town, and the police would just keep an eye out for the drunks as they left the bar, follow them home, and make sure they shut off the car. They didn't follow them inside to see what happened next. The few times I did call the police, they would come in the house and tell him to just lay down and go to sleep. Things will be better in the morning. And of course, he minded that (not!) I stayed for 20 years, beginning divorce proceedings twice during that time and not following through because he would promise to change, and I would believe it. There was emotional abuse as well as financial abuse, along with the physical. There were times that I had to sneak his wallet out of his back pocket when he was passed out so that I could get some money for groceries. The last time he beat me was on New Year's eve, 1984. The kids had to run out the back door to the neighbors and call the cops. Finally I had the courage to put him out for good. People who have never been in those shoes do not understand how a victim can be so emotionally numb, and not have enough self esteem left to get help or get out. It is so demoralizing, and he would say that he would take my kids away, and I believed it. Also that he would kill me if I left, and I believed it. There were times when he would pass out at the kitchen table, and I would walk behind him with my cast iron frying pan in my hand and wish I had the guts to hit him in the head with it. The only thing that stopped me was knowing that my kids wouldn't have any parent then. If it was me alone, I would have sat in jail, it could not have been any worse.
> Yes, the scars are still there. Sometimes they hurts, sometimes they bleed. But with each passing day, it becomes more like a bad movie. He died last year, at age 68, of a massive heart attack. Thank God that I had the opportunity to go to the hospital and tell him that I forgave him. It also lightened my burden.
> He was never there for the kids, but they are good people and they gave him a very nice funeral, and I commend them for that. There are 12 grandchildren, and at least half of them have never met him. His loss because they are very special children.
> Please, please, in the name of all that is Holy, help anyone you know who is in a similar situation. Or if you cannot do something yourself, tell someone who can. Do not let any more people die of domestic violence. And dying does not have to be death of the body, it can be death of the joy of life, death of hope, death of knowing how to love. No one deserves that.
> ...


It's wonderful how the desire to keep the children safe gives the victim strength to do things s/he wouldn't do otherwise.

What is it with these fathers' not caring to see their kids? They couldn't have felt very connected to the children.

You managed to get through a very long ordeal, and I salute you. You also have a really cute alpaca. Do they always smile like that?


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

It has not been easy. I substituted in three school districts and worked at Wards while I went to school to get my Elementary Certification. I had the Secondary, but I did not feel able to do high school. The big boys can be intimidating.

I finally got a job teaching sixth grade, and it went on from there. I finally hit bottom after 24 years service due to the lack of support from the office and abusive students. I retired with a major depressive disorder. I'm better now. All the abuse seems to come to a head after awhile.


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

Alpaca Farmer,
You are a survivor. Be proud of yourself. I hope your children are well.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> What is it with these fathers' not caring to see their kids? They couldn't have felt very connected to the children.


Fathers and mothers who abuse their children usually are unable to feel connected to their children. 
- Sometimes the child reminds the parent of a disliked or feared person. It may be an authority figure and the parent may not recognize what is the actual basis of dislike for the child.
- The parent may never have learned how to love or be loved. Positive role models are important in learning how to love or be loved.
- The parent may be sociopathic or psychopathic. This is not about a lack of nurturing in childhood. Both of these states are due to the actual physical structure of the brain. The ability to feel emotional bonds is dependent on having certain requisite parts of the brain because those parts produce the neurotransmitters necessary for bonding emotions to be felt and bonding memories to form. When the brain structure fails to develop properly, a person can be rendered incapable of feeling love.
- Not all sociopathic or psychopathic parents are abusers. If a parent recognizes something is amiss, the parent can choose to learn good childrearing methods and be an excellent parent.

Add post partum depression as a cause of incomplete bonding. Research is suggesting fathers can suffer from it as well as mothers.


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

Mojave,
Is the lack of bonding hereditary? I'm thinking about the inability to express emotion as part of autism.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

kwright said:


> Mojave,
> Is the lack of bonding hereditary? I'm thinking about the inability to express emotion as part of autism.


Autism, dyslexia, ADHD and other learning disorders do have a genetic component. The research I've read is currently postulating the cause of autism as being due to a combination of heredity and environmental triggers. It may be similar to alcoholism where there is a genetic component which makes it easier for the offspring of an alcoholic to become alcoholics when in an environment conducive to excessive drinking. 
The exact cause of autism is not known at this point and given the breadth of the autistic spectrum, there may well be more than one cause and most likely, multiple genes involved.
Please do not give any credence to claims of autism being caused by vaccines. The study which suggested that link has been proved to be very flawed and the researcher has been accused of manipulating the data he collected. There is no greater sin in the world of scientific research.


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## GinB (Sep 2, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> GinB, I'm surprised it took only 5 years to straighten out, after 11 years of someone trying to tear you down. Did you have children to worry about, too?


Why it didn't take longer was that I received private counseling from a terrific domestic abuse shelter and also participated in their group therapy sessions. I remember that 5-year mark well. My daughters noticed the change in me at that point and commented on it. In fact, my eldest daughter said that she was glad to see that "the old me" was back, the strong, self-confident woman I used to be before "him".

Between us, we had five children (two from my previous marriage, three from his previous marriage). His teenage sons were used to his crap and became adept at letting it roll off of them like water off a duck's back. Only my youngest lived with us. He tried to tear her down too, but she was a confident young lady back then and refused to let him get to her. She is now a mother of two and a more self-confident woman you would be hard-pressed to find.

BTW, I had a "Helen Reddy" moment when I went into court to finalize the divorce. I was 50 pounds lighter and he was more than 50 pounds heavier and a sad, unhappy and angry man. (To this day, he thinks that nothing was his fault, that it was all my fault. They call that a narcissist. Clueless!)

What goes around comes around. His sons rarely talk to him anymore. He started trouble one Christmas with one of his sons and all 3 sons (rightly) took offense. They got tired of his crap. That is the saddest thing of all...what he's missing out on.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

mojave said:


> Fathers and mothers who abuse their children usually are unable to feel connected to their children.
> - Sometimes the child reminds the parent of a disliked or feared person. It may be an authority figure and the parent may not recognize what is the actual basis of dislike for the child.
> - The parent may never have learned how to love or be loved. Positive role models are important in learning how to love or be loved.
> - The parent may be sociopathic or psychopathic. This is not about a lack of nurturing in childhood. Both of these states are due to the actual physical structure of the brain. The ability to feel emotional bonds is dependent on having certain requisite parts of the brain because those parts produce the neurotransmitters necessary for bonding emotions to be felt and bonding memories to form. When the brain structure fails to develop properly, a person can be rendered incapable of feeling love.
> ...


Now I remember who you are. Some months ago I followed a thread in which you gave some really good lectures on - don't remember exactly. Could it have been oceanography? climate change? neuroscience? (probably not the last, though I suspect you'd have managed quite well)? Then you went away, and my neurons went back to sleep. I'm glad to see you're back.

Obviously you're right about the disturbance in bonding between abusive parent and child. What I find most interesting is your second point about psychopathic or sociopathic parents who can actively decide to become good parents. I've wondered whether there were such people, because I couldn't see how everyone with such a diagnosis can be a criminal, an animal-killer, or worse. Surely some had a good enough upbringing to make them choose to participate in "normal life." I'm glad to learn they do.

As for postpartum depression, I've seen that in action. A woman I knew ran away the day after she brought her baby home from the hospital. It took the family two weeks to find her, and though she was a lot more together when she came home, she was never as focused on this baby as she had been on her older child. No abuse but also not much kissing. Thankfully there was a large extended family nearby, and this child was raised by her father and her mother's parents and seemed like a reasonably happy child.


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

mojave said:


> Autism, dyslexia, ADHD and other learning disorders do have a genetic component. The research I've read is currently postulating the cause of autism as being due to a combination of heredity and environmental triggers. It may be similar to alcoholism where there is a genetic component which makes it easier for the offspring of an alcoholic to become alcoholics when in an environment conducive to excessive drinking.
> The exact cause of autism is not known at this point and given the breadth of the autistic spectrum, there may well be more than one cause and most likely, multiple genes involved.
> Please do not give any credence to claims of autism being caused by vaccines. The study which suggested that link has been proved to be very flawed and the researcher has been accused of manipulating the data he collected. There is no greater sin in the world of scientific research.


They were told that autism is located in the same area of the brain as ADHD. The doctor thinks it may be linked. Who knows. She is a trooper. On a 150 scale, she has 144. She does not understand emotions. Broad spectrum. She works hard in school.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

GinB said:


> Why it didn't take longer was that I received private counseling from a terrific domestic abuse shelter and also participated in their group therapy sessions. I remember that 5-year mark well. My daughters noticed the change in me at that point and commented on it. In fact, my eldest daughter said that she was glad to see that "the old me" was back, the strong, self-confident woman I used to be before "him".
> 
> Between us, we had five children (two from my previous marriage, three from his previous marriage). His teenage sons were used to his crap and became adept at letting it roll off of them like water off a duck's back. Only my youngest lived with us. He tried to tear her down too, but she was a confident young lady back then and refused to let him get to her. She is now a mother of two and a more self-confident woman you would be hard-pressed to find.
> 
> ...


There's something equally sad in the fact that he doesn't even know he's missing out on anything.

I love your success story. You deserve to ROAR!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Actually I am cynical about a lot of things but I want to share this experience with you. I was a Special Education teacher with one of my specialties being Autism. I was working 1-1 with a 4 year old with autism. He had a 2 year old bro who was receiving services also, but I would have described him as very high functioning and responding well to treatment. That is until he got his 2 year old shots. Within 2 weeks, he was spinning, flapping and off the wall. If I ever become a grandmother, I am going to encourage my daughter to insist that the dr. goes very slow with the vaccines. I saw what I saw.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Explanation regarding Battered Women's Syndrome on page 2 of this discussion paper. Very interesting.

http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/prc


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Actually I am cynical about a lot of things but I want to share this experience with you. I was a Special Education teacher with one of my specialties being Autism. I was working 1-1 with a 4 year old with autism. He had a 2 year old bro who was receiving services also, but I would have described him as very high functioning and responding well to treatment. That is until he got his 2 year old shots. Within 2 weeks, he was spinning, flapping and off the wall. If I ever become a grandmother, I am going to encourage my daughter to insist that the dr. goes very slow with the vaccines. I saw what I saw.


That may have been the vaccines or it may have been coincidence. Ron Suskind (who taught us that Bush's staff didn't believe in reality) has a long article on his younger son's autism, in this Sunday's NYTimes Magazine. One striking thing was that the boy was normal until he was about 3, then went downhill rapidly. This could have happened to your pupil's brother.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/magazine/reaching-my-autistic-son-through-disney.html


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Explanation regarding Battered Women's Syndrome on page 2 of this discussion paper. Very interesting.
> 
> http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/prc


I clicked on your link and got "Sorry. What youre looking for isnt here at the moment." I hope that wasn't your idea of a joke.

Seriously, it continues "The AIC website is being redeveloped and the page you requested is currently unavailable. Please try the following:

Find the page you were looking for with the site search.
Go to the homepage to see the most recent information.
Have you found a bug? Please email us and we'll try to get it fixed."

I don't know the answer to any of those questions.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> That may have been the vaccines or it may have been coincidence. Ron Suskind (who taught us that Bush's staff didn't believe in reality) has a long article on his younger son's autism, in this Sunday's NYTimes Magazine. One striking thing was that the boy was normal until he was about 3, then went downhill rapidly. This could have happened to your pupil's brother.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/magazine/reaching-my-autistic-son-through-disney.html


yeah, actually autism does become obvious at age 2-3. But I saw videos of infants who later developed the disorder already showing it. The parents do not understand what they are experiencing in the beginning and then time goes by and the autism becomes readily apparent , the kid is diagnosed at 2-3.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I clicked on your link and got "Sorry. What youre looking for isnt here at the moment." I hope that wasn't your idea of a joke.
> 
> Seriously, it continues "The AIC website is being redeveloped and the page you requested is currently unavailable. Please try the following:
> 
> ...


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Keep getting AIC site.

Google Battered Women's Syndrome and you'll find it for anyone interested.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

SQM

With your background, your observations about behavioral changes in the 2-year old are valid. The question is did the contents of the vaccine cause a physiological change or did the trauma associated with receiving the vaccine cause the behavioral changes? 

Where did the child receive the vaccine? As you know, unfamiliar locations can cause even a high-functioning person on the autism spectrum to exhibit the stress behaviors. Did the child receive the vaccines as a nasal spray and was that sensation in the nose enough to trigger a stress response? Was the vaccine given as a 'shot' with the usual associated pain? Was that pain enough to send the 2 year old into orbit response-wise?

Asking the right question(s) is imperative to distinguish between events which are actually correlated and events which seem linked due to sequential occurrence. One of my colleagues has a high-functioning pre-teen son. That kid can run every high tech piece of equipment we have in our labs. But don't ever turn on a centrifuge when he is present - the sound freaks him.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

damemary said:


> Alpaca Farmer brings up an important point.....alcohol. It's a common link.
> 
> I've seen treatment work, but not for everyone.
> 
> ...


Alcohol and drugs are of course a serious problem because they take away inhibitions that would exist if people were sober.

However, we have to be careful thinking that alcohol/drugs are in anyway the cause.

There are lots of abusers where alcohol/drugs are not a factor at all.

And those who manage to NOT drink/drug.... may not physically abuse, but often the psychological abuse is as bad, if not worse.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

All of Silicon Valley is populated with people like your colleague's son. As long as you are a very smart high-functioning person with autism, you can do just fine. I think of Issac Newton and many other very accomplished people thru-out history. With their focus and ability to juxtapose things that typicals can not do, one can understand the value that autism has in nature.

The 2 year old had been vaccinated before and was easy-going. I assume it was administered as an injection. Your other suggestions, tho very-well thought out, could not possibly account for what I witnessed.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Keep getting AIC site.
> 
> Google Battered Women's Syndrome and you'll find it for anyone interested.


Google gave me three articles: "Battered Women Who Kill," "WHEN PLIGHT MAKES RIGHT: THE FORENSIC ABUSE SYNDROME," and "VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN: THE CHALLENGE OF DIVERSITY FOR LAW, POLICY AND PRACTICE.

Is one of these what you're referring to?

Okay, I see that p. 2 of the last article does define "syndrome" and "battered women," though it's kind of dry. I'll read through it later and post anything I think is important. Better than that, if you see anything you find important, why don't you post it?


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

SQM said:


> I don't think it is a myth. The abuser abuses, sobers up a bit, promises never to do it again, "love", drinks again, ad nauseum. I think this is a typical pattern in abuse cases.


"Great sex" or "Make up sex" has nothing to do with it.

While OF COURSE, when the otherwise abusive man begins to show any sort of tenderness, the woman may take that and use it to convince herself that there is more love than "illness" involved in their relationship. And yes, I think especially in young women, they sometimes confuse that anger with "passion". They reason that he must LOVE her so much that he can't always control himself etc...

It may not be what you MEANT to convey, but when you phrase it in that manner "_great make up sex_" ... there's some degree of blaming the woman for being... sadistic ... as if she WANTS the pain.

I think I know what you were trying to refer to... there is often a "cycle" that happens. ... but it's not about "great make up sex" as if some how the woman secretly LIKES the abuse at first, or finds it to be a "turn on".

HE may like that... but I don't think that's typically how the abused woman feels.


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## chooksnpinkroses (Aug 23, 2012)

I can't read any more. It's all too sad, and it reminds me of my own mentally/verbally abusive and controlling first husband....I'd rather not remember....It was all so long ago.... I feel very sorry for women who do not have it in them to leave, don't know what the answer is to that.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Wombatnomore said:


> Explanation regarding Battered Women's Syndrome on page 2 of this discussion paper. Very interesting.
> 
> http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/prc


Is this the link you're referring to?

Battered Women Who Kill: A Plea Of Self-Defen{c}se

http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/proceedings/16/easteal1.pdf


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Alpaca Farmer, I cry as I read your story and those of others. Your stories are legion in this country and yet, still, nothing is done by lawmakers to make it better for women and children. Bless you for sharing your story...it may help someone else get free.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Annelisse said:


> I can't read any more. It's all too sad, and it reminds me of my own mentally/verbally abusive and controlling first husband....I'd rather not remember....


I'm so sorry, Annelisse. Sometimes talking it out can ease the pain, but you know yourself best.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

VocalLisa said:


> Alcohol and drugs are of course a serious problem because they take away inhibitions that would exist if people were sober.
> 
> However, we have to be careful thinking that alcohol/drugs are in anyway the cause.
> 
> ...


You make several valid points. Many abused women believe if their man would just stop drinking, everything would be alright--until the abuse happens when he isn't drinking. The psychological abuse is always a constant, whether the abuser is drinking or not. Sadly, most abused women don't recognize this until they get away from the physical abuse and realize they were constantly manipulated and terrorized.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

kathycam said:


> Alpaca Farmer, I cry as I read your story and those of others. Your stories are legion in this country and yet, still, nothing is done by lawmakers to make it better for women and children. Bless you for sharing your story...it may help someone else get free.


We've had the Violence Against Women Act since 1994, though it took a battle to have Congress reauthorize it last year. I don't know whether it's worked, but the following Factsheet claims it has:

*Factsheet: The Violence Against Women Act*

Under the leadership of then-Senator Joe Biden, Congress recognized the severity of violence against women and our need for a national strategy with the enactment of the Violence Against Women Act in 1994. This landmark federal legislations comprehensive approach to violence against women combined tough new provisions to hold offenders accountable with programs to provide services for the victims of such violence.

VAWA has improved the criminal justice response to violence against women by:

 holding rapists accountable for their crimes by strengthening federal penalties for repeat sex offenders and creating a federal rape shield law, which is intended to prevent offenders from using victims past sexual conduct against them during a rape trial;

 mandating that victims, no matter their income levels, are not forced to bear the expense of their own rape exams or for service of a protection order;

 keeping victims safe by requiring that a victims protection order will be recognized and enforced in all state, tribal, and territorial jurisdictions within the United States;

 increasing rates of prosecution, conviction, and sentencing of offenders by helping communities develop dedicated law enforcement and prosecution units and domestic violence dockets;

 ensuring that police respond to crisis calls and judges understand the realities of domestic and sexual violence by training law enforcement officers, prosecutors, victim advocates and judges; VAWA funds train over 500,000 law enforcement officers, prosecutors, judges, and other personnel every year;

 providing additional tools for protecting women in Indian country by creating a new federal habitual offender crime and authorizing warrantless arrest authority for federal law enforcement officers who determine there is probable cause when responding to domestic violence cases.

VAWA has ensured that victims and their families have access to the services they need to achieve safety and rebuild their lives by:

 responding to urgent calls for help by establishing the National Domestic Violence Hotline, which has answered over 3 million calls and receives over 22,000 calls every month; 92% of callers report that its their first call for help;

 improving safety and reducing recidivism by developing coordinated community responses that bring together diverse stakeholders to work together to prevent and respond to violence against women,

 focusing attention on the needs of underserved communities, including creating legal relief for battered immigrants so that abusers cannot use the victims immigration status to prevent victims from calling the police or seeking safety, and supporting tribal governments in building their capacity to protect American Indian and Alaska Native women.

VAWA has created positive change. Since VAWA was passed:

 Fewer people are experiencing domestic violence.

 Between 1993 to 2010, the rate of intimate partner violence declined 67%;

 Between 1993 to 2007, the rate of intimate partner homicides of females decreased 35% and the rate of intimate partner homicides of males decreased 46%.

 More victims are reporting domestic and sexual violence to police, and reports to police are resulting in more arrests.

 States have reformed their laws to take violence against women more seriously:

 All states have reformed laws that previously treated date or spousal rape as a lesser crime than stranger rape;

 All states have passed laws making stalking a crime;

 All states have authorized warrantless arrests in misdemeanor domestic violence cases where the responding officer determines that probable cause exists;

 All states provide for criminal sanctions for the violation of a civil protection order;

 Many states have passed laws prohibiting polygraphing of rape victims;

 Over 35 states, the District of Columbia, and the U.S. Virgin Islands have adopted laws addressing domestic and sexual violence, and stalking in the workplace. These laws vary widely and may offer a victim time off from work to address the violence in their lives, protect victims from employment discrimination related to the violence, and/or provide unemployment insurance to survivors who must leave their jobs because of the abuse.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

VocalLisa said:


> "Great sex" or "Make up sex" has nothing to do with it.
> 
> While OF COURSE, when the otherwise abusive man begins to show any sort of tenderness, the woman may take that and use it to convince herself that there is more love than "illness" involved in their relationship. And yes, I think especially in young women, they sometimes confuse that anger with "passion". They reason that he must LOVE her so much that he can't always control himself etc...
> 
> ...


From what I have learned from the media, in abuse situations, good sex equals he really love me which is a defense because the woman is helpless, or feels so. Yeah, I was trying to demonstrate the cycle and I think maybe good sex keeps the cycle rolling.


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## raedean (Apr 25, 2011)

i was raised in domestic violence and being the oldest child and a girl.i had to walk a line of listening out for mom and siblings plus trying to not get dad to feeling like i was not for him.
i thought i raised my daugther to know better.so far every man shes been with has beat her up.hmm.sort of weird i think.
i thought i had won.i thought i had gotten out of it.
it affects the generations i suppose.
i only recently found out about personal boundaries.
i did not know when i was raising my daughter i did not protect her as much as i should have.i learned early to lay down and be careful.be quiet and take it all.
dont talk about it.my mother talked about this all her life to her death.
i only just now found out i needed to lay down personal boundaries myself for my kids and me even with in our inner reactions.
say..my daughter and her family moved in and ruined my 80$ treasured art book by spilling salsa all on the pages.
i was mad but when i spoke to my daughter about this.so she says-u care more about things than people.
well i would go back into my corner.that would shut me up.
i am saying this is not abuse but the long term effects of it.of being in it.of being scared as a child.
now i see my daughter.i see why she tries so hard to go way over the line to roust up and shout and say no but she eveidently still gets beat up by all.thats why i always was quiet and obeyed.dad beat up my mother and my brothers.
this is why it is illegal for children to witness it.at least here in Oregon.


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## chooksnpinkroses (Aug 23, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm so sorry, Annelisse. Sometimes talking it out can ease the pain, but you know yourself best.


Thankyou for your kind words, I probably shouldn't have looked at this thread in the first place.

My own situation wasn't nearly as bad as many I've read about.

I guess my sadness today has more to do with my mothers lovely sweet natured 4.5 year old cat being killed by a car yesterday (Sunday 9th) afternoon....


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Purl thanks for starting this thread. I have never experienced abuse but have many friends who have and the stories shared out here remind me of what some of my friends have gone through. I was shocked by who some of the abusers were as they seemed to be perfectly normal loving husbands and fathers and were very clever at hiding their abusive behavior and good at intimidating their wives and children so no one would "tell on them" and most often were brainwashed by their abuser to believe they had brought this on themselves and deserved the abuse. Thanks to all of you for sharing your stories and if there are any who have read this thread and are in an abusive relationship please get out. One friend of mine did not leave until her husband grabbed their infant daughter out of her crib and threw her up against the wall. The baby didn't make a noise or move and her father took off fearing he had killed her. Fortunately, she was still alive and my friend was able to call for help and escape from this terrible relationship. Her daughter was OK. My friend still suffers from guilt after 35 years that it took harm to her daughter for her to decide she had had enough. She had to quit her job and move to another town to be rid of him. Violence towards women and girls seems to be increasing in the U.S. and many boys and men seem to have little to no respect towards women and it is a very disturbing trend.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Kathycam, you've given a lot of thought to this subject. Are you a professional in the field or just a very observant onlooker?
> 
> It's true that children are at risk wherever an abuser is allowed to stay at home. Some of the women here have said they put up with the abuse until the abuser started on the children.
> 
> Unfortunately, even then some women will stay in the relationship because they've become so dependent on having a man around to tell them what to do. This makes it essential to have friends they can speak to for moral support, though many abusers try to prevent their victims from forming friendships.


No, I am not a professional, but I have been very active with my local women's shelter for many years. I could rip your heart out with the stories I've seen and heard.

It is true that one of the ways abusers keep control is by preventing relationships of any kind. They will do their best to keep their victims from having contact with friends and relatives, therefore, no support or recourse from his abuse.

That being said, I would like everyone to know that many women's shelters are supported by United Way. If you donate money to these shelters, it will be deducted from their United Way funds. The best way to support a shelter is with goods. Many women and children arrive in shelters with nothing but their pajamas on. They need everything...clothes, wallets, purses, toiletries, etc. The next time you have donations for Goodwill, you might ask yourself if there is anything there that the shelter could use. My employer always gave everyone a turkey for Christmas and I always took mine to the shelter. One of my friends always donates socks. For some reason she believes socks are a great source of comfort. She also sent a lot of socks to the Katrina victims. Another of my friends sells Avon and contributes her products and samples.

Christmas is a horrific time for victims in the shelter--especially the children. Many women go back to their abusers at Christmas so their children can be in their home for Santa's arrival. For that reason, I have a group of friends who collect lots of brand new items so that the mothers will have gifts for their children and the children can choose gifts for their mother. Toys for Tots is a wonderful organization, but I feel that the traumatized children in the shelters, begging their mothers to take them home, need them more. I hope all reading this will keep these suggestions in mind when looking for a charity.


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

Annelisse said:


> Thankyou for your kind words, I probably shouldn't have looked at this thread in the first place.
> 
> My own situation wasn't nearly as bad as many I've read about.
> 
> I guess my sadness today has more to do with my mothers lovely sweet natured 4.5 year old cat being killed by a car yesterday (Sunday 9th) afternoon....


I am sorry for your loss. Sometimes the emotions run into each other. I've been stuffing my face all day. I think I struck a nerve.

I just remembered that my son said that all the boys my daughter dated in college were losers. She is currently dating a man that she knows from elementary school. He is a really nice guy. He adores her. Lord willing, all will be well.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Annelisse said:


> Thankyou for your kind words, I probably shouldn't have looked at this thread in the first place.
> 
> My own situation wasn't nearly as bad as many I've read about.
> 
> I guess my sadness today has more to do with my mothers lovely sweet natured 4.5 year old cat being killed by a car yesterday (Sunday 9th) afternoon....


What a sad thing to have happened. So while you're grieving for the kitty, you find a thread full of horror stories (though many of them had happy endings). This was not the kind of material to see on such a day.

Please, when you feel up to it, come back. You may have some good advice to pass on to women who are having a rough time.

Tell your mother I am sorry for her loss. I've lost two cats, the second one about 5 years ago, and I still sometimes cry over them.


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

We went to several local Christmas parties hosted for the children that had been in the local shelter for the first year we were independent. My children remember going to those parties and getting presents. My daughter had a four inch Fisher Price doll that she got at the shelter. I found it is some clothes they were going to dispose of, and I washed it and gave it to her. She still has it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

raedean said:


> i was raised in domestic violence and being the oldest child and a girl.i had to walk a line of listening out for mom and siblings plus trying to not get dad to feeling like i was not for him.
> i thought i raised my daugther to know better.so far every man shes been with has beat her up.hmm.sort of weird i think.
> i thought i had won.i thought i had gotten out of it.
> it affects the generations i suppose.
> ...


raedean, this is a complicated situation but one things stands out clearly: children who have been raised in violent homes are scarred by the violence. Different people may react differently, but it can probably be traced back to what you saw as a child. You were made timid by it; your daughter is scarred in a different way. It's dangerous for her to remain in a situation where she's forever being beaten, and if she has children there's another generation that will be harmed by it.

Your daughter may not be able to talk to the men who beat her, but she's figured out how to talk to you so that you will go back into a corner and hide. It's not fair to either of you.

I don't know whether you have been in therapy, but some of the things you've said sound as though you've been getting some counseling. If not, it would probably help a lot; it would be even better if you and your daughter could go together to learn how to speak to each other. She needs help to break the pattern she's in of picking the wrong man. You need help in standing up to abuse - what your daughter is doing to you sounds like abuse to me. I'm sure there are agencies who can provide the help you both need. But even if she won't join you, you'd benefit from it yourself.

And stick around here. Some of the women posting have very good advice, and you can see how they've been helped by setting boundaries. It would be a good start.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Purl thanks for starting this thread. I have never experienced abuse but have many friends who have and the stories shared out here remind me of what some of my friends have gone through. I was shocked by who some of the abusers were as they seemed to be perfectly normal loving husbands and fathers and were very clever at hiding their abusive behavior and good at intimidating their wives and children so no one would "tell on them" and most often were brainwashed by their abuser to believe they had brought this on themselves and deserved the abuse. Thanks to all of you for sharing your stories and if there are any who have read this thread and are in an abusive relationship please get out. One friend of mine did not leave until her husband grabbed their infant daughter out of her crib and threw her up against the wall. The baby didn't make a noise or move and her father took off fearing he had killed her. Fortunately, she was still alive and my friend was able to call for help and escape from this terrible relationship. Her daughter was OK. My friend still suffers from guilt after 35 years that it took harm to her daughter for her to decide she had had enough. She had to quit her job and move to another town to be rid of him. Violence towards women and girls seems to be increasing in the U.S. and many boys and men seem to have little to no respect towards women and it is a very disturbing trend.


Hi, Cheeky. Thanks for your input. I've been impressed by the number of women who couldn't stand up for themselves but managed when their children were threatened. Your friend had a narrow escape, but she got out to save her baby.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

kathycam said:


> No, I am not a professional, but I have been very active with my local women's shelter for many years. I could rip your heart out with the stories I've seen and heard.
> 
> It is true that one of the ways abusers keep control is by preventing relationships of any kind. They will do their best to keep their victims from having contact with friends and relatives, therefore, no support or recourse from his abuse.
> 
> ...


You are a very observant onlooker but also a generous and thoughtful one.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Purl thanks for starting this thread. I have never experienced abuse but have many friends who have and the stories shared out here remind me of what some of my friends have gone through. I was shocked by who some of the abusers were as they seemed to be perfectly normal loving husbands and fathers and were very clever at hiding their abusive behavior and good at intimidating their wives and children so no one would "tell on them" and most often were brainwashed by their abuser to believe they had brought this on themselves and deserved the abuse. Thanks to all of you for sharing your stories and if there are any who have read this thread and are in an abusive relationship please get out. One friend of mine did not leave until her husband grabbed their infant daughter out of her crib and threw her up against the wall. The baby didn't make a noise or move and her father took off fearing he had killed her. Fortunately, she was still alive and my friend was able to call for help and escape from this terrible relationship. Her daughter was OK. My friend still suffers from guilt after 35 years that it took harm to her daughter for her to decide she had had enough. She had to quit her job and move to another town to be rid of him. Violence towards women and girls seems to be increasing in the U.S. and many boys and men seem to have little to no respect towards women and it is a very disturbing trend.


Glad to see you here Cheeky. I watch Netflix a lot and the number of plots that involve murdering women is amazing. People have habituated to violence. Since the '70s, the film industry has exploited violence to get people into the theatre. It is so commonplace as a visual, that it is no surprise to see an increase in violence against females.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Thanks Kathycam for helping us help others with all of your fine suggestions. Also shelters can use teacher volunteers. Many of the women may have had academic issues and need a basic skills boost. I used to teach women to read in a shelter. If the women get educated, so will their children and life improves.

I realize that this is not the case for all women, but I am sure many could use the services of a retired teacher.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Good work Mama Bear. I bet those 'kids' appreciate all you've done. You inspire us all.



kwright said:


> No. He took a job out of state. There was enough belief that he had supervised visitation. He chose not to see them after the restraining order ran out. I had one for a year while the kids were in the hospital. I do not know the details of the order, except that it kept him away for a year, and he did not exercise his visitation after that. The kids never wanted to be left alone with him.
> 
> He told me to put the youngest up for adoption as there are no retards in his family. Well, he's my baby. I did the ot, pt, apnea monitor, seizure meds, reflux so bad he'd turn blue; everything I needed to do to help him. He is currently working on a PH.D. in Chemical Engineering. She's a teacher. The eldest has a M.S. in Computer Engineering and works for one of the major computer companies.
> 
> The divorce was final when the youngest was fifteen months; my daughter was four; and my eldest son was six.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And a true crime of abuse is the fact that it continues in unexpected ways.



kwright said:


> He is still alive in Georgia.
> 
> When my youngest was a senior in high school, on parent night, I ran into my friend from kindergarten. He proposed then. We went out once at eighteen, but I was told that I would not be allowed to date the retired boss's grandson. It would be hard on my dad. We started dating after parent night. It still took three more years to marry. My mother still would not allow it. She finally said yes as his mother was dying of cancer. His mom was waiting on us to get married. We married and have been for six years. He has his moments, but his ex was abusive to him. She was bi-polar. She kicked my elder stepson out when he was twelve. He is abusive to me when he is in the house. Now, he lives in west Texas. We see him maybe three times a year. I told my DH that since his son is so needy of his attention, I recommended that he meet him half way at the family farm, and spend time together. I had to call the police on my stepson once. He resents that his dad married me and does not include me or my children as part of 'his family'. I have since found out that the younger son was also emotionally abused by his mom and step-father. They are both grown. The younger is a good kid.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Get the support you need. You deserve it. We're always here if you want to vent.



kwright said:


> It has not been easy. I substituted in three school districts and worked at Wards while I went to school to get my Elementary Certification. I had the Secondary, but I did not feel able to do high school. The big boys can be intimidating.
> 
> I finally got a job teaching sixth grade, and it went on from there. I finally hit bottom after 24 years service due to the lack of support from the office and abusive students. I retired with a major depressive disorder. I'm better now. All the abuse seems to come to a head after awhile.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for sharing important information.



mojave said:


> Fathers and mothers who abuse their children usually are unable to feel connected to their children.
> - Sometimes the child reminds the parent of a disliked or feared person. It may be an authority figure and the parent may not recognize what is the actual basis of dislike for the child.
> - The parent may never have learned how to love or be loved. Positive role models are important in learning how to love or be loved.
> - The parent may be sociopathic or psychopathic. This is not about a lack of nurturing in childhood. Both of these states are due to the actual physical structure of the brain. The ability to feel emotional bonds is dependent on having certain requisite parts of the brain because those parts produce the neurotransmitters necessary for bonding emotions to be felt and bonding memories to form. When the brain structure fails to develop properly, a person can be rendered incapable of feeling love.
> ...


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Maid - thanks as always for sharing your story and insights. I came from an abusive household and had to leave the state eventually to cope. It was funny that you mentioned joining up in the '60s movements. I did totally but my parents were there with me so it was no real escape. My abusive sib and I are very close now and share all the same interests. So my story ended well. And I love NYC. But I wonder how my life would have been different if I did not have to leave town for my sanity or what remained of it.


Most of my friends are about 5 to 10 years older than me, and had already put a fair amount of distance between themselves and their families. Some haven't been in touch with their families for 50 years. Hard to believe, but sometimes the best choice. I remember being so completely shocked about the kinds of abuse that went on in peoples' families. I counted and still count myself very, very fortunate to have missed that kind of evil. And I think it's best to think of these things as evils and ills that can be dealt with even when it seems most hopeless.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You are a font of valuable information. Many thanks for taking time to share. It has the ring of truth, and it's heartening to hear warnings about the myths.



mojave said:


> Autism, dyslexia, ADHD and other learning disorders do have a genetic component. The research I've read is currently postulating the cause of autism as being due to a combination of heredity and environmental triggers. It may be similar to alcoholism where there is a genetic component which makes it easier for the offspring of an alcoholic to become alcoholics when in an environment conducive to excessive drinking.
> The exact cause of autism is not known at this point and given the breadth of the autistic spectrum, there may well be more than one cause and most likely, multiple genes involved.
> Please do not give any credence to claims of autism being caused by vaccines. The study which suggested that link has been proved to be very flawed and the researcher has been accused of manipulating the data he collected. There is no greater sin in the world of scientific research.


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## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

I want to say, there are some amazingly strong women on this forum, and I would like to hear from some of the men as well.
I, too, was raised around domestic violence. My mom didn't leave him, my youngest sister ended up running him off. To this day she swears she stayed because the kids ( her kids by him, her youngest 3) loved him, which isn't true.. I remember holding them while they cried and literally begged her to leave him. Her next man got mad, shoved her down and caused her to break her wrist, and she stayed with him for a while afterwards. I am thankful that she has, for all intents and purposes, decided to remain single for the past several years.

In my first marriage, my husband got violent ONE time. I called my sister and the police and we ended up getting a divorce.

My baby sister ended up in an abusive relationship. She was pregnant and he shoved her into an open door, so she left him - went back to him because he KNOWS BETTER than to EVER hit her again, and moved 4 hours away. Here came baby #2, and seven months later he beat her so severely she had bruises 2 weeks later, had a mental breakdown and lost custody of her children for almost a year. Good news: she realized that he won't change, and she won't go back to him. 

By the way, the husband I have now? Best man I know. I guess I lucked out there.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I do. Now you know why I avoid those links....and who knows what information got into your computer? I just don't trust that stuff. Too many lies and dirty tricks.



Poor Purl said:


> I clicked on your link and got "Sorry. What youre looking for isnt here at the moment." I hope that wasn't your idea of a joke.
> 
> Seriously, it continues "The AIC website is being redeveloped and the page you requested is currently unavailable. Please try the following:
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for the reminder Lisa. I did not mean to say alcohol/drugs are the cause, just a common factor in lowering inhibitions.



VocalLisa said:


> Alcohol and drugs are of course a serious problem because they take away inhibitions that would exist if people were sober.
> 
> However, we have to be careful thinking that alcohol/drugs are in anyway the cause.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

This brings up a corollary on my 'I don't open links' rule.

I respect a comment that gives a well-thought-out opinion and then gives background......rather than expecting us to delve and parse through articles with no direction given.

Just me.



Poor Purl said:


> Google gave me three articles: "Battered Women Who Kill," "WHEN PLIGHT MAKES RIGHT: THE FORENSIC ABUSE SYNDROME," and "VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN: THE CHALLENGE OF DIVERSITY FOR LAW, POLICY AND PRACTICE.
> 
> Is one of these what you're referring to?
> 
> Okay, I see that p. 2 of the last article does define "syndrome" and "battered women," though it's kind of dry. I'll read through it later and post anything I think is important. Better than that, if you see anything you find important, why don't you post it?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I understand the urge to avoid pain from the past, but it must be dealt with or the pain returns.



Annelisse said:


> I can't read any more. It's all too sad, and it reminds me of my own mentally/verbally abusive and controlling first husband....I'd rather not remember....It was all so long ago.... I feel very sorry for women who do not have it in them to leave, don't know what the answer is to that.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It is important that this information be widely disseminated. Thanks.



Poor Purl said:


> We've had the Violence Against Women Act since 1994, though it took a battle to have Congress reauthorize it last year. I don't know whether it's worked, but the following Factsheet claims it has:
> 
> *Factsheet: The Violence Against Women Act*
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You highlight some very valid points. If you wish some help in identifying things that may help you find some real peace in the family, look for a therapist and/or support group. You've got a lot figured out already.



raedean said:


> i was raised in domestic violence and being the oldest child and a girl.i had to walk a line of listening out for mom and siblings plus trying to not get dad to feeling like i was not for him.
> i thought i raised my daugther to know better.so far every man shes been with has beat her up.hmm.sort of weird i think.
> i thought i had won.i thought i had gotten out of it.
> it affects the generations i suppose.
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

So sorry to hear. We all love furbabies.



Annelisse said:


> Thankyou for your kind words, I probably shouldn't have looked at this thread in the first place.
> 
> My own situation wasn't nearly as bad as many I've read about.
> 
> I guess my sadness today has more to do with my mothers lovely sweet natured 4.5 year old cat being killed by a car yesterday (Sunday 9th) afternoon....


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

I don't think the 'great sex' is what always keeps it together. In my case no, it was the thing to be avoided. I avoided it as much as possible. I stayed up until he went to sleep. When I wanted to have my third child, I did not get pregnant for nine months, and could not figure out why. Finally, I realized that he was being mean the last half of the month; so, I figured out when prime time was and planned it. A simple evening without all of HIS extras. One time in six weeks, and it was blue!! I never thought I was that kind of woman, but I was desperate to have another baby, and knew that if it was not his, I would not have any. He was not happy. He did not want more than two. The third one is mine. Even his parents were mad. They promptly announced that they were not going to help when the baby was born, and they didn't.

He remarried long before I did. The kids were young. There are not children with the new wife. Oddly, she looks like his mother. LOL While in college, my elder son received an email from a step-cousin. She talked about how great his father was, such a good man. How he should send his dad an email and make up with him. I told my son to throw the letter away, and let sleeping dogs lie. He did.

We all went to the same university. If my ex wants to find the children, all he has to do is get the alumni address book, and he has it. It gives the address, marital status, and children, degrees, and years of graduation. He has all their information within his reach if he decides to look for it. I have his. Mine is still listed with my mom. My eldest would have changed his to the current one. My daughter would be with my mom. The youngest may have his listed at school. I had not though about this in awhile. It is a scary thought. Let sleeping dogs lie. Hopefully, he will continue to stay there.


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## Moondancermel (Nov 18, 2012)

We have quite a lot of this in the UK as well. I would like to blame some of the foreigners because they have horrific crimes against women allowed in their countries, but I can't really. Many of our men feel they have to bully and threaten to feel like men. Mental abuse is probably the worst. People don't see it as abuse if you are not hit. There are often reports in the UK of Indian girls being murdered by brothers or fathers because they do not want an arranged marriage.

We get a lot of news from India, Pakistan and other areas of the world as we have many nationals living in this country and there are often reports of women being dragged off of buses and gang raped in the streets. The police are corrupt and do nothing as they feel a man has the right. We see plenty of things about young children in forced marriages dying because of sexual brutality. I have come to the conclusion that women are abused all over the world and the root seems to be based in religion. Men basically own their women and women are admonished to OBEY their husbands no matter what. 

Really sick if you ask me.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Moondancer, thanks for your input. I have been wondering why hardly anyone outside the US has contributed to this thread. Maybe, the details are just too horrific to speak about I'm sure this topic has brought about bad memories and feelings for many reading it, whether they posted or not. I pray that information given here serves to help those who need to get away from a dangerous relationship. I hope anyone who needs more information will feel free to PM me...anytime.


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## Jean Keith (Feb 17, 2011)

I was married 8 yrs with 3 young children and my husband was seeing someone else, drinking heavily, and would shove me around, then leave for the bar and come back slobbering drunk. The day he threw me against a wall only happened once. Like Donnie, I have a temper and will take only so much. The night he came home (drunk on his you know what), I beat the tar out of him, so badly that when he awoke in the morning he couldn't remember how he got so bruised and beaten up. But before he returned home, I had emptied all of his booze, and filled the bathtub with water for his guns and ammo to rest in. And the next day I filed for divorce. 

Lots of timea in court, a custody trial, fighting for child support. Fought hard each time and won. That was in 1971-2; single life is sweet.


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## ChristineM (Oct 1, 2012)

It is a sad state of affairs when so many of us have suffered through all of this! I thought I was over it completely when I finally got rid of him, after many years of abuse---mainly because I did not give him a SON but 2 daughters! I thought my girls' did not know what was going on but it seems all these years later they did indeed know! It wasn't until I took off my stiletto shoe, held it by the toe and hit him---for the first and only time---- with the steel spike and broke his elbow that he stopped hitting me! OMG! I wish to hell I'd done it sooner and it was then that I knew, without a doubt that I was stronger, in all ways, than him! He should never ever have started hitting my eldest girl for being "mouthy" like her [email protected]#$%^ING mother, he said!!! He was a gun fanatic and used to keep the bullets separate from the rifles, so that he would have time to think about, looking for the bullets before loading the rifle and shooting me to death! This week, on cleaning out the linen press (after 25 years! Yes I hate that job) I found a box of bullets! Bugger me there are 50 cartridges (and I quote from the box) Subsonic .22 LONG RIFLE PERCUSSION RIMFIRE Cartridges. Guess where I found them???? Inside a Tupperware box of old sewing spools for an ancient Singer Sewing machine! He hid them where I'd eventually find them and I'd remember, what would have happened to me and my children if he "lost the plot" completely! He's been gone since 1990! But I still froze with fear and felt ill when I opened the box and saw what was in it! Even after all these years, he still has the power to scare the bejesus out of me! I suffered, emotional, verbal, physical and financial abuse for about 25 years before I retaliated and he had the gaul to tell me girls "it was alright until your mother broke my elbow and kicked me out with nothing except a bag of clothes"! I had to wait until he decided to give me money to buy food and it wasn't until I put Baked Beans on the table for his tea and he told me to" beg for my house keeping money," and I said " f---Off!" Hell will freeze over before that happens!" Unbelievable that I can remember all these years later how scared, yet how angry and humiliated I was by him and yet how strong I felt when I slammed the door on him and threw him out! My daughter said tonight "poor Dad, he is so small now compared to how I remember him as a little girl Mum. How do you feel now?" My comment was "the devil takes care of his own! The only trouble is he takes so frigging long to do it!"


GinB said:


> Domestic violence includes physical abuse, but also includes verbal, emotional, mental and financial abuse.
> 
> We who have been through it have learned how to pick our battles. It took me 11 years to leave and 5 additional years before I got my head back on straight.
> 
> What a sad state of affairs this country is in with regard to domestic abuse!


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## ChrisGV (Apr 5, 2013)

Dreamweaver said:


> Many on this site have suffered abuse and have shared their stories at times. Though not as frequent, there are also men who suffer abuse and this is almost more traumatic and shameful for them, as they are "supposed" to be the strong ones. The eroded self confidence stops many from getting help, but there are so many more places available now... As hard as it may seem, have faith, get up and GO. you will be helped.


My father was continuously verbally and emotionally abused by my mother. He rarely stood up for himself. The anger and abuse contributed to his health issues and he died at 79. Of course my mother's anger never stopped. She had always been verbally abusive to me and one of my brothers, but her anger contributed to her death also at 79. The family saw how anger and abuse took them and me and my sister and 2 brothers have happy marriages and families. We refused to continue their example


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## flohel (Jan 24, 2011)

I was a victim of Domestic violence. I could not leave at the time. No money no family no help. When I finally left it was the most dangerous time of my life thank God I survived.. Many women loose their lives by the abuser when they do leave.


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## MyKentuckyGirl (Jan 15, 2014)

I have been a victim of one or another kind of abuse ever since I was a child. For a very long time I did not understand why I acted the way I did when in a relationship. Always finding a reason to destroy it. Never to trust. I still have those problems, but now I work through them. The problem was a didn't remember what had happened till I was 30 years old. Now at 51 having been in and out of therapy, on medicine, and also having medical and mental problems. It would take way to long for me to talk about all of it here. But one of the good things to come out of all of this. I learned to fight for what is right for my two sons and myself. Which has helped in the medical issues. The latest fight is my second battle with cancer. The first one was thyroid cancer, this time it's a rare form of breast cancer. I go in for surgery, on April 4th. And will not know if my surgeon is only taking part of one breast or all of both till I wake up. What I'm trying to say is, if I had not learned to be a survivor of abuse, I would not have the strength of will to be a survivor of all my medical and mental issues. Even what is one of the horrible evils of this world can make us victims stronger.


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## ChristineM (Oct 1, 2012)

I too am a survivor of Breast Cancer and wonder if all the years of abuse in my early life, contributed to me developing breast cancer, with absolutely no family history of it ever. My love and thoughts are with you as you tread this path now, that none of us ever wanted to be on. You have many "pink sisters" around the world holding your hand. Stay in touch and know that you are not alone, ever!


MyKentuckyGirl said:


> I have been a victim of one or another kind of abuse ever since I was a child. For a very long time I did not understand why I acted the way I did when in a relationship. Always finding a reason to destroy it. Never to trust. I still have those problems, but now I work through them. The problem was a didn't remember what had happened till I was 30 years old. Now at 51 having been in and out of therapy, on medicine, and also having medical and mental problems. It would take way to long for me to talk about all of it here. But one of the good things to come out of all of this. I learned to fight for what is right for my two sons and myself. Which has helped in the medical issues. The latest fight is my second battle with cancer. The first one was thyroid cancer, this time it's a rare form of breast cancer. I go in for surgery, on April 4th. And will not know if my surgeon is only taking part of one breast or all of both till I wake up. What I'm trying to say is, if I had not learned to be a survivor of abuse, I would not have the strength of will to be a survivor of all my medical and mental issues. Even what is one of the horrible evils of this world can make us victims stronger.


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## Nancyn (Mar 23, 2013)

I have never experienced domestic abuse and for that I am very thankful. I married very young (19) and am still married to the same loving man (39 years this year). We have two daughters and both are married and in loving, stable relationships. I like to think they picked their spouses based on how they were raised. They never saw violent outbursts or fear. When my youngest started dating her now husband, she started having a few bruises. I confronted her and got the I was clumsy, etc. I got hold of her then boyfriend and told him in no uncertain terms that if she came home with one more bruise and I didn't care how she got it, he would answer to me. He jokes to his friends that he never had to worry about her dad, just watch out for his MIL!


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## ramdoupri (Dec 22, 2012)

This subject is very current in our lives right now! This week we are set for a pre trial for my son a victim! He left his girlfriend who had a son and the son upon him leaving was assualted!!! Which left him with a seizure disorder and since had to have brain surgery. The effect on the family is life changing I have had to quit my job to care for my son. Trying to get help from state and federal government is ridiculous! 
Our system protects the abuser!!!


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## #1Patsy (Feb 6, 2011)

Yes it is shocking when family comes out of the closet so to speak and shares her years of abuse. We never knew, so glad she ended but she waited till her children were grown. they have problem too


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## MyKentuckyGirl (Jan 15, 2014)

Thank you, I think I am blessed in so many ways. My two sons are wonderful. They're 18 + 28. My youngest graduates form high school this year. Then goes in the military in September. My oldest son is married to a wonderful girl and they now have a 2 year old son. But best of all they live right around the corner from me. And my mom is going to be moving in with me in May. I'm fortunate to have a family that is supportive. 
After all of these years, my brother who raped me as a child and I are talking again. It was hard at first. But he has suffered too. He was raped. And yeah he made bad choices, and hurt others. He's been in jail, and goes to therapy and takes medicine. He's changed his life. Being able to put the past behind me, I've been able to put the hate behind me as well. Which has made my life happier. I don't let anyone in my life that doesn't treat me with respect and caring. I still have issues from my past but I refuse to allow those people from the past to keep hurting me now by not living my life to the fullest.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

More details please, if you wish to share.



ramdoupri said:


> This subject is very current in our lives right now! This week we are set for a pre trial for my son a victim! He left his girlfriend who had a son and the son upon him leaving was assualted!!! Which left him with a seizure disorder and since had to have brain surgery. The effect on the family is life changing I have had to quit my job to care for my son. Trying to get help from state and federal government is ridiculous!
> Our system protects the abuser!!!


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## bmeredith101 (Dec 3, 2012)

I am so sorry for those who suffer this way. In your shoes I don't know what I would do. What a nightmare! From what I have seen and read one thing I do know - don't let yourself start thinking you deserve it. You absolutely don't!

Some advice I received years ago when I was contemplating a relationship. If possible, try to head off the problem. Before you even get serious about someone spend time around their family, watching how they relate to their parent of the opposite sex and how their parents and family treat each other and you. This could be an eye opener because many "charming" men can seem fine until they are in their own family dynamic. Look for alcohol or drug abuse. Even if you don't see it in your prospective mate look for it in a parent. It is often learned behavior that may pop up later. If you see even one red flag watch for more.

It would seem highly unlikely that someone coming from a loving, functional (is there such a thing anymore?) family would later be abusive even when provoked. I suppose this isn't foolproof but would be a good start. I saw how tender my husband was with his mother and their family was loving and kind. Not proud of it but there are times I can be pretty provoking and in 40 years of marriage he has never laid a hand on me.

Once again, my heart goes out to you who suffer. I'm sure all of us, if we could, would step in and make it stop. How frustrating to not be able to!
Beverly


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## Lily Jamjar (Dec 31, 2012)

My ex husband hit me, and the way I stopped the violence (physical anyway) was to say I'd tell my brother. That scared him. My brother (who was very protective) would have, shall we say, dealt with the situation ..... however I then suffered a great deal of mental and emotional abuse. Men do suffer domestic violence too - my dear 2nd husband was a victim of violence from his ex.


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## Conchalea (Dec 30, 2013)

Pregnancy seems to bring out the worst in some men: the number 1cause of death in pregnant women is homicide by the significant other-the father of the baby. My children are in law enforcement & when they told me this I was shocked. I was never the victim of physical abuse (I was as big as my ex) but I did suffer verbal abuse. As said earlier, it was usually worse when he'd been drinking. I got out 10 years ago, but still carry the mindset at times that I'm not worthy of things. It's extremely hard to get past.


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## kyterp (Mar 3, 2011)

This subject has come to the foreground at a perfect time for me. I was verbally and mentally abused for 10 years.  My husband's ego could not deal with his retirement and failing health. He took his anger out on me. Looking back, he broke every object that I treasured. Alcohol was a contributing factor. 

One day I left. I filed for legal separation and drove 600 miles away, stopping only to cry. That was 5 years ago. Due to financial and medical insurance reasons, we never divorced.

His drinking has stopped. He has received counseling and even quit smoking. A big part of me wants to go back home. He would like to see me return home, too. 

Do I love him...yes. Am I in love with him...no. I doubt I could ever be in love with anyone again. I lack trust.

My question: should I go back and give it another try?

We both worked many long and hard hours to save for retirement. For the last 3 years, we have traveled together during summer. We got along fine. 

Is it fair to him if I go back? I feel I am denying him the chance to have a another woman fall in love with him. I struggle with the thought of going back, on a daily bases. 

Your advice is more than greatly appreciated.


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## Dusti (Jan 23, 2012)

Suffered violent abuse for 15 years till one day I lost it and put HIM in the hospital for a change. When he got out of the hospital (3 broken ribs and a concussion) he never came back home again. Guess he could dish it out but couldn't take it. He told the cops he was mugged. Too ashamed to tell them a woman kicked his ass!! Most men are cowards who beat on women. I was only 42 when numbnuts left and never allowed another man in my life ever again and have been completely happy ever since. What a waste of my life when I had allowed the men in it...ugh! But wasn't easy raising 4 sons, one only a month old, by myself but I got thru it.


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## knitnanny (Feb 28, 2012)

Great topic and one that can't be talked about enough. As a retired social worker, I would like to add that, if you are thinking about leaving an abusive relationship, PLEASE seek a safe shelter. Women are at the highest risk for death or serious injury at the time they leave. They are very good shelters around so please use them!!


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## Dusti (Jan 23, 2012)

kyterp said:


> This subject has come to the foreground at a perfect time for me. I was verbally and mentally abused for 10 years. My husband's ego could not deal with his retirement and failing health. He took his anger out on me. Looking back, he broke every object that I treasured. Alcohol was a contributing factor.
> 
> One day I left. I filed for legal separation and drove 600 miles away, stopping only to cry. That was 5 years ago. Due to financial and medical insurance reasons, we never divorced.
> 
> ...


IF...and I do emphasize the word "IF"...if he really has seen the light of day...then give him another shot. It takes time to really KNOW someone and you already paid the price for that knowing concerning him, already. Listen, you don't have to let him into your home again unless of course it makes for a better financial situation and that is a consideration these days. If you "like" him and have had a good time with him in the past then I see no reason why that can't continue that is "if he is truly clean." I mean, the door isn't nailed shut...it still can be opened if he needs to be tossed out on his ear again.

Personally, I would never allow ANY man in my home again. I am far too independent for that and just can't go back to that whole subjugation thing again. How do YOU feel about that? Another thing, when you have a partner in life you DO lose and/or give up half of yourself because then every little descision is up for a vote.

Are you or have you become independent? Do you like your seclusion? Then just keep the relationship "friendly" and go to the occassional show with him and let him go home to his own apartment.

But...are you lonely? And do you miss sharing ALL your moments with another? Do want to see another face across the table for that first cup of morning coffee? Then let him come home. But think carefully about what you are willing to give up since you now have experienced what being independent is like. Nothing comes free, there is and always be a give and take...just consider how much of either is important to you.

PS:
...forgot to address your concern about how you feel about denying him the chance to love another woman. THAT will happen with or without you in the picture. That one is entirely in his ballpark. If it bothers you that much...then free your mind by letting him know he has your blessings in that regard.


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## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)

The saddest thing is when a woman will press charges against a man and then cancels the charges and takes him back home within a few hours. Men aren't the only abusers - women can be the abuser's. Abuse doesn't have to be physical it can be mental. There are so many great resources out there to help people,but they have to admit they are being abused or that they are the abuser. Abuse can come from a child, as well as a spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend.


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## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)

Good for you. Having a 'man' in our life isn't all life is about. Hope you continue to be happy and contented.


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## Lily Jamjar (Dec 31, 2012)

He has addressed his issues and hopefully he's fully realised how badly he treated you and has apologised. 

He loves you and in spite of everything you still love him. I would say, yes, give it another try, but both of you to be aware that the relationship needs to be worked at, constantly, and to be sure not to repeat the mistakes of the past. With love and forgiveness and tolerance, you might make it work.

Yes, I know, it's easy for me to say, not knowing either of you and living thousands of miles away - in another country even. But love can be a rare commodity and it'd be a shame to waste the love you still have for each other. 

If you don't go back to him, you might wonder for the rest of your life "what might have been".

I do very sincerely wish you lots of luck, whatever you decide.


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## janis blondel (May 20, 2011)

I was never a victim of physical abuse but more mental abuse. My ex-husband used to tell me I was fat and worthless and no one but him would ever have me. It doesn't sound too bad considering the beatings that some women/men suffer, but let me tell you when someone you love is constantly telling you your worthless and continually putting you down it gets to you after a while. I finally took a good look at myself and said, you are worth more than this, and so I left with my two daughters, one who was two the other eight months. It was hard, I sold my furniture and everything I owned we went back to Scotland but he sent the police after me saying I had kidnapped his children, Jersey law is different, so I had to come back escorted by the police who could not believe what he was getting away with. On our return we had to stay in a hostel and sleep on the floor of the nursery we were given a flat after ten months, after a month I wss diagnosed with cervical cancer, my life wad a nightmare. Now years later I have a lovely house, I have just retired after forty years of nursing, my daughters are both doing well and I have two beautiful grand-daughters. My ex-husband never sees the children, I have never preventef him, he just doesn't care, but now I look around and yes I am so proud and so glad that I walked that day, I hold my head up high and think I did this and I did it on my own. Yes there is light at the end of the tunnel after divorce, and we all deserve to be treated with respect by others.


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## Marti57 (Dec 31, 2013)

I too have been a victim of violent domestic abuse; mental, physical, financial, emotional, sexual, etc. It took eight years to leave, another 10 yrs to understand that I was the victim and stop taking ownership of the abuser's problems. Alcohol, control issues were at the root the their problems. I was alone, no one to turn to; to ashamed to turn to family, no organizations to call back then. The Lord was with me and still is today for there are times when the overnight bag rears its ugly head. Women of today, do not feel ashamed, turn and get help before it's too late. There are safe havens now for us!!


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

John Lennon wrote and recorded a song called "Woman is the N-Word of the World". I think he was right.


Moondancermel said:


> We have quite a lot of this in the UK as well. I would like to blame some of the foreigners because they have horrific crimes against women allowed in their countries, but I can't really. Many of our men feel they have to bully and threaten to feel like men. Mental abuse is probably the worst. People don't see it as abuse if you are not hit. There are often reports in the UK of Indian girls being murdered by brothers or fathers because they do not want an arranged marriage.
> 
> We get a lot of news from India, Pakistan and other areas of the world as we have many nationals living in this country and there are often reports of women being dragged off of buses and gang raped in the streets. The police are corrupt and do nothing as they feel a man has the right. We see plenty of things about young children in forced marriages dying because of sexual brutality. I have come to the conclusion that women are abused all over the world and the root seems to be based in religion. Men basically own their women and women are admonished to OBEY their husbands no matter what.
> 
> Really sick if you ask me.


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## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)

What can one add to all these wonderful and truthful statements - stay strong!!
My ex called me after at least 26 years of being divorced and I didn't call him back until he called 4 times. All he was looking for was a partner! He passed away two weeks later and his last wife was his caregiver - the arse hadn't changed. Then his first wife - I was #2, put an on-line condolence. I e-mailed her and come to find out he had called her and wanted her to sell her home - she lives outisde the USA - and come back to America. He called her before he called me - luckily she didn't do what he wanted. What an arse hole! He never changed and he wasn't happy - without a woman he didn't know how to be happy. He asked if I was happy and with a clear conscious I told him I am contented and I am! No I haven't re-married, but haven't found the right person and I may never find this right person, but I can live with myself and be contented.


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## nickerina (Jul 29, 2011)

I did an essay on this in college and my research turned up a distressing fact. The police, in many cases, do nothing. A case in Ct was one example where the police stood around talking to the husband while he continued to kick his wife in the head. She suffered brain damage as a result. I had personal experience as the man in the apartment below would beat his girlfriend. We would call the police and because he heard them coming and stopped, they did nothing. We tried(we had a porch above) to make them ask to see the girl. They ignored us. Just bitched about being called out. The lady in the apartment next to theirs thought he was going to drown her. The bathrooms were next to each other and the walls not too thick. My husband's Dad beat his Mother. He was and is determined he would never do that and he doesn't. You never know how the children are going to be affected.


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## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)

Sometimes cops are abusers to their spouses and children.


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## Irish Kathleen (Feb 6, 2014)

There is one aspect of D.V. that is rarely, if ever, mentioned which is a serious contributor to the perpetuation of D.V  in society . . . . and that is all of those friends and families of the abuser who refuse to believe that he (or she) is abusive. They firmly believe that THEIR friend or THEIR family member couldn't POSSIBLY be doing such a thing. They are easily taken in by the lies and distortions told by the abuser. There is a very personal element for them in that they usually cannot countenance the fact that they themself have a relationship with someone who is an abuser. These people who are closed-minded in this regard contribute significantly to the perpetuation of D.V. in society. It is widespread. As a professional who has helped many D.V. victims, I have first hand knowledge of this. But it is also evident in the world around us, personally as well as professionally.


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## Juleen (Jun 3, 2011)

I told my hubby before we got married the same thing my mother told my father:

"There will be times you will be mad or even furious with me and that's OK. However, if you EVER EVER EVER hit me, sooner or later you will fall asleep. I have a cast iron skillet and I WILL get even. So you'd better think long and hard before raising a hand to me!" 

She also told me to watch very closely how his dad treated his mother. I also did that and his dad was very much a gentleman. I am blessed in my marriage but I did my homework!


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## Bunbun (Feb 13, 2013)

mine was verbal abuse and believe you me, that hurts just as much as physical abuse. I was very slow on picking up on the fact that it WAS abuse. I was naïve and trusting. DUH!!!
I worked in several banks for 20+ years and there were always sheets in the stalls in the ladies rooms with a number to call if you were a victim of abuse. I was always amazed how quickly the tear off phone Number disappeared. No one I knew ever gave any indication of their pain but the pain was obviously there or those phone numbers wouldn't have been taken. My hope was that once the number was taken, that the number was actually called.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Only you can decide this, and I think you know the answer.

Ps In event of divorce retirement and other assets would be split. Then you would have control of the assets and truly be able to make an objective decision about travel etc.



kyterp said:


> This subject has come to the foreground at a perfect time for me. I was verbally and mentally abused for 10 years. My husband's ego could not deal with his retirement and failing health. He took his anger out on me. Looking back, he broke every object that I treasured. Alcohol was a contributing factor.
> 
> One day I left. I filed for legal separation and drove 600 miles away, stopping only to cry. That was 5 years ago. Due to financial and medical insurance reasons, we never divorced.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You are indeed a strong woman.



Dusti said:


> Suffered violent abuse for 15 years till one day I lost it and put HIM in the hospital for a change. When he got out of the hospital (3 broken ribs and a concussion) he never came back home again. Guess he could dish it out but couldn't take it. He told the cops he was mugged. Too ashamed to tell them a woman kicked his ass!! Most men are cowards who beat on women. I was only 42 when numbnuts left and never allowed another man in my life ever again and have been completely happy ever since. What a waste of my life when I had allowed the men in it...ugh! But wasn't easy raising 4 sons, one only a month old, by myself but I got thru it.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

She's losing her ability to find another man too, but she only mentions her husband in that regard.



Dusti said:


> IF...and I do emphasize the word "IF"...if he really has seen the light of day...then give him another shot. It takes time to really KNOW someone and you already paid the price for that knowing concerning him, already. Listen, you don't have to let him into your home again unless of course it makes for a better financial situation and that is a consideration these days. If you "like" him and have had a good time with him in the past then I see no reason why that can't continue that is "if he is truly clean." I mean, the door isn't nailed shut...it still can be opened if he needs to be tossed out on his ear again.
> 
> Personally, I would never allow ANY man in my home again. I am far too independent for that and just can't go back to that whole subjugation thing again. How do YOU feel about that? Another thing, when you have a partner in life you DO lose and/or give up half of yourself because then every little descision is up for a vote.
> 
> ...


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## Juleen (Jun 3, 2011)

That is a person decision only you can make. However, I personally would NOT go back. If he hit you once, he may hit you again and life is too short to spend it being hit or waiting to be hit!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I find it distressing when women talk about returning to give it another try. Love is such a special thing, give it another try. (Trust is more special IMHO)He's apologized.


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## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)

At this point women are holding onto any hope of making the situation work. I kept thinking it would work and he kept telling me it would. Finally one day I realized that "I" can't make it work it had to take 'We" to make it work. Got the divorced and laughed every night on my way home from work. I was also in a bad work situation and had to walk away from that. Found out later that the manager and secretary were having an affair - both were married to someone else. Apparently after the years they are still together, but they made it rough on the other workers.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

ramdoupri said:


> This subject is very current in our lives right now! This week we are set for a pre trial for my son a victim! He left his girlfriend who had a son and the son upon him leaving was assualted!!! Which left him with a seizure disorder and since had to have brain surgery. The effect on the family is life changing I have had to quit my job to care for my son. Trying to get help from state and federal government is ridiculous!
> Our system protects the abuser!!!


I am so sorry for what your son and family have suffered. Sadly, these things happen thousands of times a day. You didn't say where you live, but as I posted previously, the feeble laws that ARE on the books in the US are useless and rarely enforced. I pray that justice is done for your son at trial. If the penalties were stiffer, maybe, some of the evil doers would think twice.


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## MyKentuckyGirl (Jan 15, 2014)

I can see how this is a difficult choice. I've been abused many different times and ways and from different people. I blocked out being raped by my brother for about 20 years, my father is still abusive emotionally and verbally ( I don't have anything to do with him. He's never tried to change. ) I married twice, my first one was physical, verbal, emotional, and financially abusive, and raped me. I left. My second marriage, was everything but physically abusive, I left him. But everytime there is abuse in a relationship for me it takes longer and is harder to come back to being myself. 

Now, you are saying you are thinking of going back to your husband. So, let me tell you the story of my brother and myself. I blocked out what he did for almost 20 years. When I did start remembering it came back as flashbacks, P.T.S.D. And was a real real bad time, for what seemed like a forever. Then I started to change, was able to put it behind me. Go on living my life a good life. In that my soul was healing and I became happy with myself. Well about 5-6 years ago, my brother and I started out texting every once in awhile. Then we started talking. He's been in jail, and does counseling and takes medicine. You see he was raped, too. Several times, before he raped me. I can't say I forgive him, but I don't hate him anymore. Which is saying alot. He made a bad choice when he was just a child himself. Now, as an adult he's made another choice to change. To be the person he was meant to be all those years ago before he was raped. In May we will see each other for the first time in almost 20 years. We're taking it slow. But I think, I'll finally have my brother back. 

So, take your time. Do the counseling together. Look for a counselor that works for both of you. Things happen to cause good people to do bad things, then sometimes these good people come back to being good people again. 


I wish you happiness and safety. You both have my prayers.


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## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)

Remember this if you don't remember anything else - an abuser WILL NEVER CHANGE!


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## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)

Good luck, but be careful!


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

flohel said:


> I was a victim of Domestic violence. I could not leave at the time. No money no family no help. When I finally left it was the most dangerous time of my life thank God I survived.. Many women loose their lives by the abuser when they do leave.


Your story is by far the most common, and luckily, you DID survive getting away, and you DID survive the aftermath, which is always very difficult at best, and dangerous, at worst. I congratulate you for being a survivor. You, and others like you, are my heroes!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Thankfully I have never experienced any domestic violence myself, but my sister has. Her husband was an alcoholic and then started to get violent also. He held a gun to her head and threatened to kill her and she immediately filed for divorce. She was lucky that she was able to get rid of him. I know that is when things really get bad for a lot of women. 

We hear so many stories of abuse, physical and sexual, of children, by boyfriends and stepfathers. I think too many women have self esteem problems and believe they cannot survive without a man in the house. A lot of times these children end up being killed. 

Marissa Alexander of Florida shot a warning shot into the wall to stop her husband from beating her again and was sent to prison for 20 years. She has young children and she could have shot him, but chose not to and was sent to prison for 20 years. She now has been granted a new trial, but the prosecutor is now saying she will try to send her back to prison for 60 years. What happened to the stand your ground law working for her? She is a black woman, so the justice system is not there to protect everyone. 

I live in a duplex and the other family, parents with 2 little kids, fight a lot. It is verbal at this point and the screaming and swearing I hear sometimes is awful. I feel so bad for the kids, but that is what they will carry on into their future relationships, cause that will be all they know. I think the 4 year old already has some behavioral issues.


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## gma11331 (Oct 18, 2011)

I think that the fact that the issue of domestic violence has come out of the closet is a major step forward. When I was young you rarely heard it spoken about. We watched one of our GDs suffer abuse in her relationship but she was in total denial, so desperate was she to have a "family" unit...and he drug her into major trouble with him and she finally turned evidence on him. Then she went into another like situation but he got hit by a car....I won't add to that for the sake of propriety. And all are right...a restraining order is worth doodledy-doo!


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Kentucky Girl--My heart goes out you and I know without a doubt, you ARE a survivor and you will survive this too. Hopefully, you will be feeling the results of all the prayers said for you, very soon. We are all with you and you know you can come here any time of the day or night, and someone is here, who cares. April 4th will be my DH's first birthday, that he isn't here, so you can be sure, I will remember to be with you in spirit during your surgery. Many prayers and hugs to you.


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## MyKentuckyGirl (Jan 15, 2014)

kittykatzmom said:


> Remember this if you don't remember anything else - an abuser WILL NEVER CHANGE!


Very very few can or want to or put the work in to change. I'm fortunate my brother has and is continuing to do the work it takes to change.


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## MyKentuckyGirl (Jan 15, 2014)

kathycam said:


> Kentucky Girl--My heart goes out you and I know without a doubt, you ARE a survivor and you will survive this too. Hopefully, you will be feeling the results of all the prayers said for you, very soon. We are all with you and you know you can come here any time of the day or night, and someone is here, who cares. April 4th will be my DH's first birthday, that he isn't here, so you can be sure, I will remember to be with you in spirit during your surgery. Many prayers and hugs to you.


Thank you. With everything I been through from abuse, my parents divorce when I was young, my own divorcees, being a single parent (to two boys I raised into really great caring men), the many medical issues. Through everything I found out. I don't know the meaning of giving up. I'm a strong willed, stubborn, bullheaded, fighter for my loved ones, and they give me the strength to carry on. I want to be the 80 year old lady, with her high heels and jeans on, out on the dance floor flirting with the guys.


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## Twoie (Mar 19, 2013)

GinB said:


> Domestic violence includes physical abuse, but also includes verbal, emotional, mental and financial abuse.
> 
> We who have been through it have learned how to pick our battles. It took me 11 years to leave and 5 additional years before I got my head back on straight.
> 
> What a sad state of affairs this country is in with regard to domestic abuse!


Thanks, Gin. Back in the old days when Dr. Phil guested from time to time on Oprah, she aired a show with 3 survivors of domestic abuse--one of whom had suffered through horrific emotional abuse and was still quite a basket case even in therapy. Here I was thinking I was the only one!! It's awful when you feel so low and hopeless that you want to end your life. What an educational eye-opener, but I was never strong enough to get away from him. It got worse as the years went by and then he got sick and died 8 years ago. I don't have as much baggage now, but I'm still unpacking. If anyone here is currently in a 'situation,' I hope our prayers will help.
Linda


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

You might be surprised how many "super religious types" are not only hypocrites, but very sick abusers, child molesters, thieves, tax cheats--you name it. They are always very well respected by all, and no one believes it's true when a wife files for divorce. I had to stop attending my church of 14 years, because my involvement with the local women's shelter made me privy to who these abusers are. I swear, I could sit halfway back in the pews and count them on two hands, and those were only the ones I knew about, that were in my front vision. Obviously, my feelings were hardly Christian, so I had to find another church, in the next town, where it would be unlikely that I would recognize anyone's abuser. To this day, people ask me why I don't attend my old church.

I should add that I have also seen the handiwork of a couple of cops and a city councilman.

If anyone reading this feels too embarrassed to admit they are being abused--please don't be. Shelter workers have seen and heard it all. Victims usually feel all alone, and never heard of anyone they know being abused, but believe me, victims are everywhere.



SQM said:


> My Precious Wright - your story chilled me to the bone. I am so sorry you and the kids had that horrendous experience. It reminded me of all the ultra-religious pols who are anti-gay and then are found with a gay lover. So many of the super religious types are the biggest hypocrites.
> 
> I have a daughter who will be 31 next month so your story struck such a chord with me.
> 
> Hoping you and your family are experiencing better things now. Was the RAT ever held culpable for his crimes?


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## MrsMurdog (Apr 16, 2013)

mad hatter said:


> There is one aspect of D.V. that is rarely, if ever, mentioned which is a serious contributor to the perpetuation of D.V in society . . . . and that is all of those friends and families of the abuser who refuse to believe that he (or she) is abusive. They firmly believe that THEIR friend or THEIR family member couldn't POSSIBLY be doing such a thing. They are easily taken in by the lies and distortions told by the abuser. There is a very personal element for them in that they usually cannot countenance the fact that they themself have a relationship with someone who is an abuser. These people who are closed-minded in this regard contribute significantly to the perpetuation of D.V. in society. It is widespread. As a professional who has helped many D.V. victims, I have first hand knowledge of this. But it is also evident in the world around us, personally as well as professionally.


You are so right! I even experienced my ex's mother working to keep me in a victim position so her son wouldn't look bad. She knew he was an abuser and went above and beyond in her protection of him. Even putting my ex's welfare above our son's. I gotta get out of this thread. My blood pressure is rising.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> There's something equally sad in the fact that he doesn't even know he's missing out on anything.
> 
> I love your success story. You deserve to ROAR!


ALL our KP survivors deserve to ROAR!!!! I am in awe...you are all my heroes--or should I say heroines?


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

kittykatzmom said:


> Remember this if you don't remember anything else - an abuser WILL NEVER CHANGE!


So very true! These people are very good actors and manipulators. That's why everyone thinks they are wonderful. They can usually convince their victims to drop all charges and stop the divorce. They can even maintain a "honeymoon phase" until she lets her guard down-- and then it's back to the status quo. No victim wants to hear this. She wants to believe that she's getting back the man she fell in love with and her dream of happily ever after will come true. Sometimes, she never understands that the man she fell in love with doesn't exist. He was an actor, playing a part, until he got her under his control.


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## safepethaven (Nov 1, 2011)

I agree with all your posts on this topic; honestly I had to look at your thumbnail profile to check, but was surprised to see it was Michigan. Could have sworn it was Texas by your descriptions of the lame, toothless and unevolved laws. Oh and the unequal protection afforded to lawyers, judges, etc but not the most often persons [women] being abused? -- my dad used to use the slang expression [and y'alling it up more for impact]: "Dem dat haz -- gits", as in between the Haves & t he HaveNots, Haves with continue to Have/Get while the HaveNots will continue to do without for the most part.


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## teapot (Aug 25, 2012)

Household pets, in a domestic violence situation, are also in jeopardy.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

MyKentuckyGirl said:


> Thank you. With everything I been through from abuse, my parents divorce when I was young, my own divorcees, being a single parent (to two boys I raised into really great caring men), the many medical issues. Through everything I found out. I don't know the meaning of giving up. I'm a strong willed, stubborn, bullheaded, fighter for my loved ones, and they give me the strength to carry on. I want to be the 80 year old lady, with her high heels and jeans on, out on the dance floor flirting with the guys.


How about the red hat club? Then you could also wear purple and a red hat with that outfit!!! 
:roll:


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## safepethaven (Nov 1, 2011)

Exactly; and unfortunately for pets, there are even fewer laws or the teeth to enforce them, than for their humans. Society's health or pathology is reflected not only in the way people treat each other, but also how they regard their spouses, children, and pets. As my screen name states, abuse or neglect of innocent animals, domestic pets or wildlife, is one of my biggest hot-button issues. So I turned my anger & frustrations into action and have been doing spay/neuter programs, feral colony support, rescues, fostering, adoptions, etc for the past 39 years. While tiny improvements in awareness/education have been made over time, we're still exponentially far behind in these problems, only speaking for the U.S.; I cannot speak to other countries' progress.


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## Becca (Jan 26, 2011)

There are many forms of abuse and not just mental, verbal, emotional and physical. Some forms come from outside the home: cultures, expectations, religious, governmental.

I have opened Pandora's Box. Now think amongst yourselves. But do remember, a whisper, a thought, shared with thousands of others becomes a roar of discontent.


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## Max amaze (Oct 28, 2012)

Look at my daughters name on internet I will never get over it Sharon knapper


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## balloch8 (May 11, 2012)

I have to agree with you on the vaccination shots. It's not the vaccine. It's the way they give them. When my boys were babies, it took almost a year for them to get all their shots. I've been with my d-I-l at the pediatricians. The kids got 4 shots at one time. Two in each leg. Same way with the next dose a few months later. Everyone's body make up is different. How one child responds to the vaccines (given the new way) doesn't mean every child will respond the same. I hope I'm making sense. I do think it has something to do with the way they're given.


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## MaggiePringlemeir (Jun 3, 2012)

From experience, both from working with an organization that helps abused women, and from having been abused myself, many years later, I have to agree with every single post thus far. But I also believe that many health care professionals do not take abuse seriously. Yes, some doctors and nurses do, bless 'em forever, but others? 

I had a severely injured ankle, the result of slipping on icy steps and coming down hard in a parking lot, and the ER referred me to an orthopedist. When I asked the nurse which orthopedist did I want to see, she told me Dr A, but you likely won't be able to get into him. Any of the others are good .. but NOT Dr B. Hokay -- next morning ortho called to tell me I was scheduled to see Dr B. My husband was 6 ft 4, a former Marine and very protective. Thankfully, he had a hearing loss so he did not hear Dr B's comments. Edward would have used him to wipe the floors if he had. Dr B came into the exam room, glanced at Edward, then looked at me and asked "so, what did he DO to you?" I was aghast, and told him "nothing, except be the best husband in the world". His response? "That's boring, make something up." He was not amused by my response that domestic violence was NOT something suitable for jokingabout. Nor was he pleased when I filed a formal complaint (to add to the many others in his file) for his unprofessional conduct. Damn fool sent me off for extensive and painful physical therapy, when even the therapist looked at my test results and told me that most people get sent straight to surgery, not PT. 

Point being -- it is a matter of society's tacit acceptance of this inappropriate behavior. Wives and children had no rights under English common law. All authority was vested in the husband, the "head of the household". This attitude has found its way to our society here in the USA. After years of horrors, we now recognize that our children and our animals need to be protected, they deserve at least a minimum standard of care. But that has not completely filtered into protection for a spouse from a spouse. There seems to be the thought that "oh, well, he/she married her/him, it's her/his own fault. They got into it, it's up to them to get out of it."

This lasse-faire way of thinking makes me so angry I see red, crimson, ruby and vermillion -- all the shades of red. It's lazy and cruel. Just as the weeuns belong to all of us and all of us are responsible for protecting them, I believe that ALL women must step up to protect our sisters everywhere. Yes, indeed, it IS time for us to ROAR -- Reach Out And Protect.

The last I heard, Dr B had left the providing health care arena. He is now working for a major insurance provider, deciding eligibility for medical/surgical procedures. Now THAT is one scarey thought.


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## Lolliesue (Feb 4, 2013)

Verbal abuse is almost as bad . It does so much damage.


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## safepethaven (Nov 1, 2011)

It does; even my veterinarian of 30+ years knows not to give most pets too much of an overload of vax especially the senior pets or those that are fragile/have special needs. He does not advise consolidating numerous vax at the same time for many conditions pets have, and yes he considers the time and convenience of their owners as to multiple trips but ultimately he is there for the maximum health and welbeing of the pet. I often wonder why physicians who treat humans cannot be as excellent as the two DVM's I've been so lucky to have had access to, for 39 years in two different cities, hundreds of miles apart. The only area in which I've been blessed, actually. To tell you the truth, I wish my current vet could be MY doctor; much better consideration, treatment & up-to-date knowledge than I've ever rec'd from any people docs thus far in my life, and that's saying a lot!

My senior and fragile pets ALWAYS do better at handling multiple vax when they're split up & administered at least a week apart. Never a bad reaction when done that way, to date.


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## MyKentuckyGirl (Jan 15, 2014)

kathycam said:


> How about the red hat club? Then you could also wear purple and a red hat with that outfit!!!
> :roll:


Not a bad idea. But wouldn't you know I live in one of these backwoods little towns here in Kentucky. You have to drive half an hour just to buy a beer. LOL...


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

MaggiePringlemeir said:


> From experience, both from working with an organization that helps abused women, and from having been abused myself, many years later, I have to agree with every single post thus far. But I also believe that many health care professionals do not take abuse seriously. Yes, some doctors and nurses do, bless 'em forever, but others?
> 
> I had a severely injured ankle, the result of slipping on icy steps and coming down hard in a parking lot, and the ER referred me to an orthopedist. When I asked the nurse which orthopedist did I want to see, she told me Dr A, but you likely won't be able to get into him. Any of the others are good .. but NOT Dr B. Hokay -- next morning ortho called to tell me I was scheduled to see Dr B. My husband was 6 ft 4, a former Marine and very protective. Thankfully, he had a hearing loss so he did not hear Dr B's comments. Edward would have used him to wipe the floors if he had. Dr B came into the exam room, glanced at Edward, then looked at me and asked "so, what did he DO to you?" I was aghast, and told him "nothing, except be the best husband in the world". His response? "That's boring, make something up." He was not amused by my response that domestic violence was NOT something suitable for jokingabout. Nor was he pleased when I filed a formal complaint (to add to the many others in his file) for his unprofessional conduct. Damn fool sent me off for extensive and painful physical therapy, when even the therapist looked at my test results and told me that most people get sent straight to surgery, not PT.
> 
> ...


I have heard that joke, "What did he/she do to you?" but it has been amongst friends who know that I or my husband are truely a clutz NOT from a doctor who knows nothing!

I can back up that many people in health care don't take spousal abuse seriously. I remember as a new nurse we had one patient whose husband was always so loving to her. He was helping her, speaking nice, ect. But one day I stopped right outside the doorway to her room to write on a chart. I heard him being COMPLETELY opposite to her. He was berating her for not using the [email protected] breathing machine thingy (the one they give after surgery). I was shocked. But then I walked right in the room and he completely changed into the loving person he always was. That huge adjustment was a big signal. Anybody can have a bad day, but that doesn't change when someone walks in the room.

I wrote it in her chart and when the doctor came I told him. His response was "Well that's not my problem". I was shocked and came back with, "YES IT IS! You have to discharge her to a safe environment and if he is abusive it is NOT safe!" he quieted down a bit with that. He later came back and told me he thought the guy was off when he came and sat down with them for lunch and talked with them. I told everybody involved in the care, but there wasn't much more I could do. He was ALWAYS with her, with only a very few exceptions. They don't have a hotline that nurses or doctors can call like they do for child abuse. We didn't even have numbers or pamphlets to give her, social workers did but they wouldn't do anything unless the doctor ordered it. Most people didn't even care! I think I was the only person who wrote about anything regarding the behavior of the husband toward her in the chart. She was discharged by the time I came back for the next shift. I hope that if she truly was being abused she got help and got out.


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

Here's one I just remembered. My kids are clumsy like their mother. They would fall down at school and get hurt, and I'd have to take them to the orthopedist. We went to the same doctor for years. We really liked him. He was nice.

Well, you won't believe this. It was in the paper, that his wife had filed for divorce. Apparently, he used to beat the snot out of her, then lock her in a closet all day when he went to the office. Needless to say, she finally got out an filed for divorce. She got something on the order of half a million in the settlement. Boy, was I surprised. He left town. I don't know where he went. Talk about Dr. Jackal and Mr. Hyde!


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## gma11331 (Oct 18, 2011)

My sister was married to a minister of a fundamentalist church who certainly did not practice what he preached. She even caught him personally with the church secretary but she couldn't leave him or she would lose everything...wasn't a community property state. Another minister in their community (same faith) wasn't allowed to make ministerial housecalls alone because of his reputation! After my BIL passed he all of a sudden became a paragon of virtue to her. Even her own kids couldn't figure that out!!


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

My friend had second degree burns on both feet, from spilling hot tea on them when trying to put a gallon of tea in a pitcher with a broken arm. He daughter did nothing to help her. She called me crying, and I called the police who arrived after I did. I kept dispatch on the phone when I went in the house. When I asked her to take the socks off, all the skin came off too. She had burned herself the night before. I said an expletive, as asked dispatch to send an ambulance. Later, CPS got involved because the daughter had twin babies in the house. It was a good month, but, they received some counseling, and the babies go to stay. The police told the daughter that CPS may come see her.

While my friend was in the hospital, I tried desperately to get her to talk to the social worker. She wouldn't. Her daughter had threatened to kill her at one point. She quit talking to me when CPS came. She thought I was the one that had called them. I called Adult Protective Services. I did not call CPS. The woman called me. I told her my concerns.


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## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)

Adult Protection will not do anything! The clinic I go to called them and said I refused to let them double my meds, which I did not. When they came to my house I told them abut the neighbor situation and they said that was for the local law enforcement problem. They could have cared less! YES I called the clinic and gave them a piece of my mind!!!


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

A problem I may have missed seeing in the now many pages is related to the veterans from our many military incursions since World War II. Several persons of my acquaintance did all the right things to carefully choose a non-abuse prone spouse. What came home was far different - angry, demanding, quick to use physical force. PTSD and head injuries are the reasons for the changes. In too many instances the military and the VA are reticent to provide the level of help needed. As a result, women and children are dying.


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## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

Lolliesue said:


> Verbal abuse is almost as bad . It does so much damage.


You are so right. My mother was verbally and emotionally abusive and as I was the baby in the family, I got the brunt of it. Moved out at 23 and right away met a guy who promised me the moon. Six months into the relationship I had a niggling feeling that I didn't want to see/be w/him for a few months, but I didn't listen to that little voice inside me. The day after our wedding, I woke up to a man I didn't know. In the hotel room, I knew I was no longer safe and I needed to watch my "Ps & Qs." He was his main concern and I was last on the list; never was really sure if I was even on his list. 3 weeks before our 25th anniversary, I told him the marriage was over. Best thing I ever did marriage-wise. Went for counseling and learned that I was typical of abused wives, going from an abusive mother to an abusive husband. It was uncanny how so many of the things my mother said to put me down and rob me of any sense of being wanted, were repeated by my husband. I now live alone and enjoy every minute of being myself and doing whatever I want. And I am very sure I have worth and friends who reinforce my worth.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

mojave said:


> A problem I may have missed seeing in the now many pages is related to the veterans from our many military incursions since World War II. Several persons of my acquaintance did all the right things to carefully choose a non-abuse prone spouse. What came home was far different - angry, demanding, quick to use physical force. PTSD and head injuries are the reasons for the changes. In too many instances the military and the VA are reticent to provide the level of help needed. As a result, women and children are dying.


Yes, PTSD changes a person forever. It has been long overlooked in the military and in the "regular" area. It is so sad that it has taken so many people dying of spousal abuse or suicide before it was taken seriously. And it is horrid that the people who do these things when in the throws of a disassociative flashback then carry the guilty for the rest of their lives when it was not "them".


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Thanks Kathycam for helping us help others with all of your fine suggestions. Also shelters can use teacher volunteers. Many of the women may have had academic issues and need a basic skills boost. I used to teach women to read in a shelter. If the women get educated, so will their children and life improves.
> 
> I realize that this is not the case for all women, but I am sure many could use the services of a retired teacher.


This is such a wonderful idea. I know we have many retired teachers here and they might have an interest in volunteering. The children in shelters don't attend school, because their abuser can track them down. Possibly, a teacher could get their school work for them and help them with it, so they don't get behind before they can get back to school.

Now that you've got me thinking about all the retired teachers here, I'm thinking we also have lots of retired nurses. I am sure that shelters would be very grateful for the services of nurses. Besides the physical injures, most are very traumatized and a professional would be very helpful.

Just thinking about all the possibilities for those of us that might have some extra time on our hands, (while we rest them from our needlework) is really lifting my mood. This topic is really a downer after all, but I hope therapeutic for survivors, and enlightening for those who may need help and encouragement to get out of abusive relationships.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Max amaze said:


> Look at my daughters name on internet I will never get over it Sharon knapper


Max amaze, you've been through a nightmare. I can't even imagine such a thing. Was this man a stranger who followed her home, or was he someone she knew? (All I got from a Google search was The Star of Dec. 17, 2011, but no follow-up.) Your grandchildren did the right thing - they saved themselves - but the incident must have done a lot of damage to them.

So, so sorry for your loss.

For those who didn't search for Max amaze's daughter, Sharon Knapper, she was stabbed to death in her own home, with her children around. I hope Max tells us more.


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## Max amaze (Oct 28, 2012)

It was in Derbyshire times our local paper it was her husband been together 23years we treat him like a son he was an alcaholic but lost his way in life he should have been in hospital but he was in and out he needed help but mistakes were made


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

How often have our mental health services failed those who need it the most? You read of many instances when families have sought help for their ill ones and have gotten nowhere until the worst happens and the justice system kicks in.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

NJG said:


> Thankfully I have never experienced any domestic violence myself, but my sister has. Her husband was an alcoholic and then started to get violent also. He held a gun to her head and threatened to kill her and she immediately filed for divorce. She was lucky that she was able to get rid of him. I know that is when things really get bad for a lot of women.
> 
> We hear so many stories of abuse, physical and sexual, of children, by boyfriends and stepfathers. I think too many women have self esteem problems and believe they cannot survive without a man in the house. A lot of times these children end up being killed.
> 
> ...


I should have added that besides boyfriends abusing the girlfriends children, it can also be the girlfriends doing it. We just had such a case in my area recently where the girlfriend abused the little girl till she died of head injuries. Both of them went to jail, because they felt he knew something was going on and didn't protect her. 
There is too much evil going on in our world. We have become such a violent society.


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## La la patti (Apr 3, 2011)

A mother must teach her sons (and daughter too) that this is forbidden behavior. 
I have 5 brothers ,and I have witnessed my mother giving warnings about laying hands on a woman. I also recall my mother telling all of my sister-in-laws at the time of their marriages that they could always come to her if there was ever a problem. I have repeated this to my son ,and he knows that I mean business. I have a 2x4 that has the name of any man in my family on it that hurts a woman.
Besides ,I really think that my dad is afraid of my mother . Lol! 
The men in my family know who the boss is.


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## GinB (Sep 2, 2012)

damemary said:


> "...In event of divorce retirement and other assets would be split. Then you would have control of the assets and truly be able to make an objective decision about travel etc."


In Illinois, to be entitled to a share of a spouse's retirement benefits, you have to have been married 10 years or more.


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## Joan L (Nov 5, 2012)

Many long years ago, when I moved back to the town I had left when I divorced my x (he was threatening to kill anyone who supported me emotionally), I felt somewhat under attack. I had to leave periodically to go back to Iowa to work on my father's estate. When I got back one time, the door that went from the garage to the house was messed up like someone had tried to break in. I called the police - my x would know I'd been gone because our kids would know, and they didn't know not to pass information along to him. I think when he realized I had a St. Bernard on the other side of the door, he gave up (he was afraid of dogs). I called the police, and they said there was nothing they could do until he actually harmed me. Gee, that makes sense. So if the first harming ended up in death, I had no protection. I kept my dogs.... and added to them.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

I had posted this in another thread and Poor Purl asked for me to copy it over here since it was regarding this topic:

I think it's that it has been so long accepted by society as the norm. For instance, the "rule of thumb" was that a man couldn't beat his wife with a rod bigger than his thumb. It was normal, and expected for a man to beat his wife. Now there is such outrage about it that we hear more and more and something is being done about it. But look at how long it is taking! Society still wants to blame the victim, with comments like, "I don't understand why she kept going back", ect. There still is not the switch of outrage and attention at the ABUSER, but still a tribunal of the victim as to what she as done to bring it on or why she stayed for so long.

It's the same thing that is happening with child abuse. Look at how many people on the "why are people so aggressive" thread promoting spanking and hitting a child. Years ago those same things would have been said of a man who was "trying to keep his wife in line". It's truly sickening. It is not ok to hit anyone against their will. A wife who depends on you OR a child. Yet so many people argue their point of why it is ok and the difference in the ways you hit. Like it's ok to "spank" but not with a belt, or slap, or whatever. That used to be said of men hitting their wives. It was ok to hit, but not leave bruises so the neighbors know. It was ok to smack, but not beat with an implement. 

There are no degrees of abuse. Hitting is abuse period. If a man can't do it to another man without getting charged with a crime then it is not ok to do to a woman OR child, yet the double or triple standard still exists in society. 

Society changes so very slowly and people are so very resistant to change, but hopefully it is changing. 



MIB: I read your comment on the domestic violence thread about your teacher. I was also abused and bullied by a teacher (a few others were too). I still have issues going into a classroom and feeling comfortable, even for my kids. Those things just never go away. But my mother stood up (I too didn't tell of the things happening, never physical abuse from her but she overlooked physical abuse from other students to me) and took me out of the school. The principle told her flat out he would believe the teacher over her, even though other students could cooberate my story. It was good we had people who stood up on our behalf though. I always feel bad for those who don't.


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## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> I had posted this in another thread and Poor Purl asked for me to copy it over here since it was regarding this topic:
> 
> I think it's that it has been so long accepted by society as the norm. For instance, the "rule of thumb" was that a man couldn't beat his wife with a rod bigger than his thumb. It was normal, and expected for a man to beat his wife. Now there is such outrage about it that we hear more and more and something is being done about it. But look at how long it is taking! Society still wants to blame the victim, with comments like, "I don't understand why she kept going back", ect. There still is not the switch of outrage and attention at the ABUSER, but still a tribunal of the victim as to what she as done to bring it on or why she stayed for so long.
> 
> ...


I never understood why when a person in a POW camp tried to or did escape, he was seen as a hero. But when a woman tried to escape her prison of abuse/horror she was seen as the trouble maker and too often was told to stay or go back.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> I had posted this in another thread and Poor Purl asked for me to copy it over here since it was regarding this topic:
> 
> I think it's that it has been so long accepted by society as the norm. For instance, the "rule of thumb" was that a man couldn't beat his wife with a rod bigger than his thumb. It was normal, and expected for a man to beat his wife. Now there is such outrage about it that we hear more and more and something is being done about it. But look at how long it is taking! Society still wants to blame the victim, with comments like, "I don't understand why she kept going back", ect. There still is not the switch of outrage and attention at the ABUSER, but still a tribunal of the victim as to what she as done to bring it on or why she stayed for so long.
> 
> ...


And along that same line, blaming the rape victim for the way they were dressed. "They were asking for it." 
There have also been recent stories of abuse by sports coaches against athletes. 
Some young person can have a double wammy against them if it goes on in their home and then it happens to them in school too. Besides that a young girl may actually choose an abusive boyfriend, like her father, and then get it in school too.


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## Juleen (Jun 3, 2011)

During the VietNam war, I was attending college. (That was so long ago, we registered by standing in lines for each class we needed, not on a computer. Of course, we got there by wagon train <g>). Anyway, I was standing in line waiting my turn when the man ahead of me said he'd just gotten back from Nam. I welcomed him home and then he asked if I'd like to see a photo. I said sure not sure what to expect. He showed me a photo of himself standing in the jungle hold up two recently severed heads. I didn't know what to say!!!! I just looked at him and was silent. Since then, I realize that he had PTSD--I only pray he got the help he so badly needed!


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## Margie p (Mar 10, 2014)

30 years ago I hid a very young PFC wife from her husband. He was an MP. She could not go to the authorities. She reached out to a friend . Who reached out to me. That was the first time. I have helped teenagers. But usually I went to the police for them. 
You would think that family members would be the first ones to notice abuse and to help. I have not lived in my hometown for 40 years. My sister lived on the family farm with the extended family. My family including my mother always sided with him. When a nun suggested my sister get out , I helped her pack up. She moved to another state. Five years later I went back and got my mother. She had alzheimer,s. Your mind will shut down to escape pain. Recently my sister moved again. This time I am the only one who knows where she is at. She has recovered enough that she is working with a church to shelter anyone who needs a place to recover.
Any of you can help, just start really noticing people. The shelters are always in need of soft toys, afghans, clothes. I have seen 17 year old guys hold stuffed animals when in counseling sessions. No one is too old to snuggle stuffed animals even 90 year olds . Your knitted gift of love may be what gives someone who has given up hope a reason to hang on.


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## Juleen (Jun 3, 2011)

Margie--what an awesome suggestion! I will definitely keep the idea about afghans! Thank you!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Some time ago there were some comments made about Mothers preferring their sons to their daughters. I had not thought about that before, but then recognized it in my mother. She was born in 1912 so it was a different era. When I looked back on it I saw it in my maternal grandmother. Her two sons were wonderful men and her two daughters were second class citizens. That is the way they were raised. My mother had only 2 daughters, but definitely took on that roll with her son in law, my sisters alcoholic husband. In mothers eyes he could do no wrong and he recognized that and took advantage of that fact. It was always my sisters fault. She did the same thing with my sisters boys, but not her daughters.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for sharing your story. It gives hope to all....no small thing.



MyKentuckyGirl said:


> I can see how this is a difficult choice. I've been abused many different times and ways and from different people. I blocked out being raped by my brother for about 20 years, my father is still abusive emotionally and verbally ( I don't have anything to do with him. He's never tried to change. ) I married twice, my first one was physical, verbal, emotional, and financially abusive, and raped me. I left. My second marriage, was everything but physically abusive, I left him. But everytime there is abuse in a relationship for me it takes longer and is harder to come back to being myself.
> 
> Now, you are saying you are thinking of going back to your husband. So, let me tell you the story of my brother and myself. I blocked out what he did for almost 20 years. When I did start remembering it came back as flashbacks, P.T.S.D. And was a real real bad time, for what seemed like a forever. Then I started to change, was able to put it behind me. Go on living my life a good life. In that my soul was healing and I became happy with myself. Well about 5-6 years ago, my brother and I started out texting every once in awhile. Then we started talking. He's been in jail, and does counseling and takes medicine. You see he was raped, too. Several times, before he raped me. I can't say I forgive him, but I don't hate him anymore. Which is saying alot. He made a bad choice when he was just a child himself. Now, as an adult he's made another choice to change. To be the person he was meant to be all those years ago before he was raped. In May we will see each other for the first time in almost 20 years. We're taking it slow. But I think, I'll finally have my brother back.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MyKentuckygirl has detailed a story of how difficult it is to change and the great rewards possible.

Note kittykatzmom, I think you're more right than wrong, but change is possible, only when victim is safe and working on their issues, when the abuser truly confronts their demons (rather than just apologizing and saying they won't do it again.) There are huge differences.



kittykatzmom said:


> Remember this if you don't remember anything else - an abuser WILL NEVER CHANGE!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

NJG said:


> Thankfully I have never experienced any domestic violence myself, but my sister has. Her husband was an alcoholic and then started to get violent also. He held a gun to her head and threatened to kill her and she immediately filed for divorce. She was lucky that she was able to get rid of him. I know that is when things really get bad for a lot of women.
> 
> We hear so many stories of abuse, physical and sexual, of children, by boyfriends and stepfathers. I think too many women have self esteem problems and believe they cannot survive without a man in the house. A lot of times these children end up being killed.
> 
> ...


Call 911 when you hear fighting.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MyKentuckyGirl said:


> Thank you. With everything I been through from abuse, my parents divorce when I was young, my own divorcees, being a single parent (to two boys I raised into really great caring men), the many medical issues. Through everything I found out. I don't know the meaning of giving up. I'm a strong willed, stubborn, bullheaded, fighter for my loved ones, and they give me the strength to carry on. I want to be the 80 year old lady, with her high heels and jeans on, out on the dance floor flirting with the guys.


And you're the lady to do it. Go girl. We're with you.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you kathycam. Your perspective is precious.



kathycam said:


> You might be surprised how many "super religious types" are not only hypocrites, but very sick abusers, child molesters, thieves, tax cheats--you name it. They are always very well respected by all, and no one believes it's true when a wife files for divorce. I had to stop attending my church of 14 years, because my involvement with the local women's shelter made me privy to who these abusers are. I swear, I could sit halfway back in the pews and count them on two hands, and those were only the ones I knew about, that were in my front vision. Obviously, my feelings were hardly Christian, so I had to find another church, in the next town, where it would be unlikely that I would recognize anyone's abuser. To this day, people ask me why I don't attend my old church.
> 
> I should add that I have also seen the handiwork of a couple of cops and a city councilman.
> 
> If anyone reading this feels too embarrassed to admit they are being abused--please don't be. Shelter workers have seen and heard it all. Victims usually feel all alone, and never heard of anyone they know being abused, but believe me, victims are everywhere.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MrsMurdog said:


> You are so right! I even experienced my ex's mother working to keep me in a victim position so her son wouldn't look bad. She knew he was an abuser and went above and beyond in her protection of him. Even putting my ex's welfare above our son's. I gotta get out of this thread. My blood pressure is rising.


Makes my blood boil too. Hope you return.


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## mjs (Mar 3, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I've noticed the number of women here who allude to past abuse, or even discuss it outright. Men are less likely, as you point out, because they'd think of themselves as weaklings if a woman pushed them around.
> 
> I'd be interested to hear what some of our men have to say on this subject.
> 
> ...


Greg Lougainis has mentioned abuse at the hand of his partner. I think that was how he got AIDS also.


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## mjs (Mar 3, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I've noticed the number of women here who allude to past abuse, or even discuss it outright. Men are less likely, as you point out, because they'd think of themselves as weaklings if a woman pushed them around.
> 
> I'd be interested to hear what some of our men have to say on this subject.
> 
> ...


Greg Lougainis has mentioned abuse at the hand of his partner. I think it was from him he got AIDS also.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

safepethaven said:


> I agree with all your posts on this topic; honestly I had to look at your thumbnail profile to check, but was surprised to see it was Michigan. Could have sworn it was Texas by your descriptions of the lame, toothless and unevolved laws. Oh and the unequal protection afforded to lawyers, judges, etc but not the most often persons [women] being abused? -- my dad used to use the slang expression [and y'alling it up more for impact]: "Dem dat haz -- gits", as in between the Haves & t he HaveNots, Haves with continue to Have/Get while the HaveNots will continue to do without for the most part.


Go git em?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Quite right. Thanks for thinking of that. An abuser will destroy anything to hurt the object of their rage.....grandma's teapot or a teacup poodle.



teapot said:


> Household pets, in a domestic violence situation, are also in jeopardy.


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## kyterp (Mar 3, 2011)

Thank you for commenting on my situation. I have a lot to consider. I appreciate being able to talk about the situation with you. The decision overwhelms me. I believe I know the answer but I am afraid to admit it right now. My heart goes out to those living in, and those coming from an abusive situation. You are in my prayers. Peace be with you.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks. I couldn't find it.



Poor Purl said:


> Max amaze, you've been through a nightmare. I can't even imagine such a thing. Was this man a stranger who followed her home, or was he someone she knew? (All I got from a Google search was The Star of Dec. 17, 2011, but no follow-up.) Your grandchildren did the right thing - they saved themselves - but the incident must have done a lot of damage to them.
> 
> So, so sorry for your loss.
> 
> For those who didn't search for Max amaze's daughter, Sharon Knapper, she was stabbed to death in her own home, with her children around. I hope Max tells us more.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you Ronald Reagen.



SQM said:


> How often have our mental health services failed those who need it the most? You read of many instances when families have sought help for their ill ones and have gotten nowhere until the worst happens and the justice system kicks in.


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

My son told me that my daughter had dated several young men at college. They were all sleaze bags. The young man whom she dated last summer, left for Australia to do missionary work and study for the seminary. He broke up with her before he left. It really hurt her.

Finally, she ran into a friend from elementary school. He seems to be a really nice guy. They are on the phone constantly like I was with my husband before we married. He brings her flowers all the time. He is an only child who wants a family. She is 30, and he is 29. She had a do over or first grade, because of her dyslexia and being in the hospital for part of kindergarten. Her friends former girl friend miscarried, and it really upset him. He told my daughter that the other girl did not seem to care about the baby. My daughter has not even been able to have a female exam. She is now thinking of marriage and children. This is such a wonder for me. He really seems to love her, and she loves him too.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

kathycam said:


> ALL our KP survivors deserve to ROAR!!!! I am in awe...you are all my heroes--or should I say heroines?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Here's to our brave sisters. heroines all :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

All for one, and one for all.



Cheeky Blighter said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
> 
> Here's to our brave sisters. heroines all :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## mthrift (Jan 2, 2012)

Thanks for this article, and for the discussion of this topic. Just thanks!


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## mthrift (Jan 2, 2012)

NJG said:


> Some time ago there were some comments made about Mothers preferring their sons to their daughters. I had not thought about that before, but then recognized it in my mother. She was born in 1912 so it was a different era. When I looked back on it I saw it in my maternal grandmother. Her two sons were wonderful men and her two daughters were second class citizens. That is the way they were raised. My mother had only 2 daughters, but definitely took on that roll with her son in law, my sisters alcoholic husband. In mothers eyes he could do no wrong and he recognized that and took advantage of that fact. It was always my sisters fault. She did the same thing with my sisters boys, but not her daughters.


My mother also preferred her sons. She did things for them she did not do for her daughters.... even though her daughters helped her more & did more for her. Curious, actually.


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## Viddie (May 20, 2011)

You surely are an exceptional woman Alpaca Farmer, just reading a few of these pages makes one sick to think of grown men who have promised to love & cherish etc. their wives and then treat them like they were dirt under their feet. 

My dear Mom was 49 when she took her own life, my Dad was an abuser to all of us 7 siblings and her as well, her sister told her to bring the kids and come live with her and her hubby, but mom said no he will find me and kill us all including you and your family. I would like to see more help for women and their children- you can go to shelters here, but is not a long term answer to ones problem... in a lot of cases like my mom's for instance, she had no money at all, no training in a specific field of work- no where that she could go where she felt safe ,so we feel she felt trapped.

My Mom was a well respected person , and loved our Heavenly Father, we were all in shock when this happened, and no matter what people can say to you, one never gets over it. My Dad passed away shortly afterwards, he had remarried but it did not last.

Life is hard enough as it is without someone else making it more difficult. ... thanks for "listening " .... Viddie


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

I just got through page 6 of 15 and it is time to do some chores around the house.

Sometimes the woman who stays with an abuser is displaying "Stockholm syndrome", a defense mechanism that seems to dilute the horror by bonding with the abuser to diffuse the abuse. 

I have a couple of friends who I know were abused. One had been stalked by the man she was eventually intimidated into marrying. She was an intelligent, educated, professional who had recently been diagnosed with MS. She was vulnerable. He proceeded to isolate her from her family and friends and became physically abusive. She forced herself to have the strength to escape after a couple of years. She ended up in a relationship with a lovely kind man who took care of her for as long as he was able, including their living in the same nursing home.

Another was actually a friend of my daughter. Her mother was alcoholic and abused her and her father. Her brother stayed aloof from them all except for sometimes abusing her. She found refuge with us, and spent as much time with our family and the family of another classmate in the neighborhood. It left its mark on her. Her first marriage was to a "Peter Pan", her second to an alcoholic, and I have no idea what her present, third husband is like. He is not well and is wheel chair bound. She has lived in an other state for a number of years, managed to get her education and is teaching. The son from her first marriage has turned out very well. He is a strong person and looks out for his mother. When her second husband, the father of the two other children, started to hit the oldest, she threw him out. He seems to treat his own children well. It was when she had the strength to defend the older son that she got her act together. Last time we heard from her she was doing well. The worse her situation, the more often she would call to talk to us. She called us Mum and Dad. We know that now she is 44, the less frequently she calls, the better her situation. 

And my DH has a friend whose second wife was the abuser. She cheated on him constantly, and when he finally divorced her, she had a lawyer she was sleeping with take him for everything, and the judge, with whom she was also having an affair signed off on it. Their daughter is so messed up she has not had a good life, but their son left home as soon as he could emancipate himself and has a solid marriage and career and is a friend to his father. He has not had contact with his mother for years. Her just desserts? She married the rich judge who has his finances tied up so she can't leave and has to take care of a sick old man. And his children from his first marriage inherit.

Our friend's third wife is an absolute dear. They have been married about 35 years now and share interests and have fun together. She had also had an abusive marriage, and they appreciate the goodness and humor of each other.

To all of you who have suffered abuse and are sharing stories, strength, sisters. And brothers. Thank you for trying to help those who need it. As our friends have found, there can be light at the end of the tunnel.

But none of them were in danger of being murdered. That takes abuse to a much scarier level. And those victimized partners usually don't have the resources, mentally or financially, to escape. Until the justice system stops trivializing their plight, there is still a war to be won. And when the abuser is a police officer, the poor victim is in a horrible place.

Having an open forum like this, having a writer of Kristol's stature address the subject, these are important steps in changing society.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

. Yes, a close friend; She's so afraid of him that he gets his way all of the time. One night someone called the Police and she wouldn't press charges. 2. I'm sure xxx did. She got married and moved West. (3) No idea! (4) Yes. In the end, it's the decision on the one being abused.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

The friend has a suit case packed and hidden.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

kwright said:


> My son told me that my daughter had dated several young men at college. They were all sleaze bags. The young man whom she dated last summer, left for Australia to do missionary work and study for the seminary. He broke up with her before he left. It really hurt her.
> 
> Finally, she ran into a friend from elementary school. He seems to be a really nice guy. They are on the phone constantly like I was with my husband before we married. He brings her flowers all the time. He is an only child who wants a family. She is 30, and he is 29. She had a do over or first grade, because of her dyslexia and being in the hospital for part of kindergarten. Her friends former girl friend miscarried, and it really upset him. He told my daughter that the other girl did not seem to care about the baby. My daughter has not even been able to have a female exam. She is now thinking of marriage and children. This is such a wonder for me. He really seems to love her, and she loves him too.


This seems to run in your family, kwright: meeting old school friends and falling in love. Like mother, like daughter?


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## kabedew (Jan 16, 2011)

I was raised by an abusive mother, sorry but it is true, and thus was trained to accept abuse from my husband. It was emotional and sexual and financial.....but, somehow, he knew if he ever touched me, he would be out. Until I went to an attorney regarding what steps would be needed for divorce.

Then, there was an attempt at physical and I called the police. This was in 1992! The police came to the house, and my 450 lb husband came out in a torn nightshirt (that I had sewn for him) claiming I had abused him.....the officer said just stay apart until he moves in a week and a half. 

After he left, he would take things from the house with the help of our children (ages 13 and 11). Until I got a cat, because he was super allergic to cats.....the missing TVs, chairs, etc ended with Pound Purry. 

Years later, he was diagnosed with esophagial and stomach cancer. Our children were in their early 20s and I paid for the funeral. They had no money and he was their father. But, I later found out he had cheated on me and had, in fact, infected me with an STD. 

It's been 20 plus years since we split. And at 64 I am still struggling with the pain from my mother's abuse. I fear relationships of any kind. Knowing I don't know how to have a safe or healthy one keeps me from entering any relationship. I hide from the world....except for work. 

And for the records, NYS now offers the women in DV shelters that if there are children present during any spousal abuse, the abused person must leave or risk losing the children to the system. Its a tough law, but it is there to keep the children safe.

And help with some of the cycle of return, leave, return, leave that happens because women frequently have no money or skills to support themselves and their children.

kabedew


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

knitnanny said:


> Great topic and one that can't be talked about enough. As a retired social worker, I would like to add that, if you are thinking about leaving an abusive relationship, PLEASE seek a safe shelter. Women are at the highest risk for death or serious injury at the time they leave. They are very good shelters around so please use them!!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Tracy7913 (Sep 7, 2012)

I thought I was over this whole damn thing. My father was an abuser to my mother, myself and my brother. I have spent years getting over this, "forgiving" but not forgetting.
Until last summer when my brother told me something I was not aware of (our parents divorced and each got one, I went with our mother, he went with him). He told me that he beat our stepsister up in a bathroom at a party (she was a young child). When my brother saw her he said what happened? he pulled my brother into the bathroom and beat him up for 45 min (with the stepmother watching) and said I'll show you what happened.
My question is this, does a man like that deserve to still walk the earth? Do the other people at the party who had to have seen those children beaten and hurting deserve to breathe?
I really thought I was past that fucking asshole and could move on. But this kills me, I want him to die a really bad death. And I know this is hurting me too, I should let it go for my own sake. But my God how does a person like this justify his life, justify breathing when he has mentally and physically hurt so many people?? 
And how does this happen with witnesses who turn a blind eye?
Sorry for the swearing but I hate this man. And please don't tell me that he gave me life, he was a sperm doner and he tried to take my life as a child, more than once.
So if you are a woman in an abusive relationship, leave now.
NOW.
I will dance on your grave DKH. DANCE and be HAPPY you are dead. And know that you can no longer hurt another person.


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## kabedew (Jan 16, 2011)

One more quick note.....these abusers are charmers at first....or we wouldn't get involved with them. My late ex was known as a particularly caring and nurturing medical professional. "A good guy" that I still get asked about whenever I am in the hospital where he worked. 

I am working with a therapist trying to get past the training I got as a child and as a wife. Despite all the years that have passed. 

But they have to be charming to get us at first....then, they turn......

Not all charming men are abusers, nor are all men abusers, but any person who demands ALL your attention at ALL times is waving a red flag. 

No one should have to give up all their friends, hobbies, interests or family to please their partner. And any partner that demands such sacrifices is someone to be wary of.

kabedew


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Conchalea said:


> Pregnancy seems to bring out the worst in some men: the number 1cause of death in pregnant women is homicide by the significant other-the father of the baby. My children are in law enforcement & when they told me this I was shocked. I was never the victim of physical abuse (I was as big as my ex) but I did suffer verbal abuse. As said earlier, it was usually worse when he'd been drinking. I got out 10 years ago, but still carry the mindset at times that I'm not worthy of things. It's extremely hard to get past.


You make a vey good point and I hope anyone out there that thinks it must be their hormones or they are imagining it, will take heed. Many men seem to develop some kind of jealousy over the baby taking over his wife's body and seem to see the baby as if it were "another man"....even claiming it is not his baby. Sometimes this occurs after the baby arrives. When I was 8 or 9 years old, I overheard my mother counseling a neighbor woman about this. I was too young to understand what was going on, but I never forgot my mother saying how this woman needed to give her husband extra loving attention and keep away from the baby as much as possible when he was around. I guess I was shocked by this because I never forgot it. Looking back, I can see how women learned to "make nice" and teach each other how to survive--there were no shelters then.

Women learned to defer to their husbands, hide their intelligence, always stroke a man's ego and bring up their sons to believe that they are also kings. It may sound ridiculous in this day and age, but it was a woman's self defense at the time. No wonder, if a woman was battered, people tended to think she brought it on herself. After all, she should have learned to "make nice".


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

mthrift said:


> My mother also preferred her sons. She did things for them she did not do for her daughters.... even though her daughters helped her more & did more for her. Curious, actually.


I just think it kind of explains that women have been considered to be second class citizens for quite some time and by one of the most important people in our lives, that should have not felt that way. I think it has changed, but still needs to change more, as there are still those people that think women should have fewer rights than men. I certainly raised my daughters different than I was raised.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

It is heartbreaking to hear a woman or man say she/he did not see through the charming act of an abuser. Sometimes the red flags are well hidden for months. Hence the value of not quickly jumping all the way into an intimate relationship or marriage. Professional psychiatrists and psychologists trained to detect false statements sometimes have trouble detecting the act, the mask, the insincerity of a sociopath or a psychopath. Either of these personality types are very, very good at fooling others into believing the charming, wonderful person disguise.
The victims/survivors need to place the guilt where it properly belongs - on the abuser.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Max amaze said:


> It was in Derbyshire times our local paper it was her husband been together 23years we treat him like a son he was an alcaholic but lost his way in life he should have been in hospital but he was in and out he needed help but mistakes were made


Were there no signs that he was so far gone? Had he been abusive to her? Did she ever complain to you about his behavior? It's so hard to accept that a person could suddenly turn on his wife and do such a horrible thing.

I assume that he was in hospital for psychiatric treatment. Is that so?


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## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

kyterp said:


> This subject has come to the foreground at a perfect time for me. I was verbally and mentally abused for 10 years.
> Your advice is more than greatly appreciated.


Since you asked... my personal motto is this: Don't fall in the same hole twice. 
Ten years is a LONG time put up with abuse, why would you go back to that?


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

mad hatter said:


> There is one aspect of D.V. that is rarely, if ever, mentioned which is a serious contributor to the perpetuation of D.V in society . . . . and that is all of those friends and families of the abuser who refuse to believe that he (or she) is abusive. They firmly believe that THEIR friend or THEIR family member couldn't POSSIBLY be doing such a thing. They are easily taken in by the lies and distortions told by the abuser. There is a very personal element for them in that they usually cannot countenance the fact that they themself have a relationship with someone who is an abuser. These people who are closed-minded in this regard contribute significantly to the perpetuation of D.V. in society. It is widespread. As a professional who has helped many D.V. victims, I have first hand knowledge of this. But it is also evident in the world around us, personally as well as professionally.


So true. Sisters and mothers of these abusers will often go to great lengths to find out where the shelter is for him. Hard to believe, but women entering the shelter usually have to have picture ID when they arrive, after being checked out. That's because female friends and relatives of the abusers will even try to get themselves admitted to the shelter so they can tell Mr. Nice Guy where it is.

These women will even stalk victims for him, so they can report if she's seeing the dentist or doctor or in a place where he can get access to her. Why would they do such things, you wonder? Mr. Nice Guy is an excellent actor and manipulator and of course they need to help the poor guy gets his worthless wife back, if that's what he wants. Strangely, no matter what the evidence is, these people will not believe it and will become even more entrenched in his favor.


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## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)

I would have probably thrown up. What an awful gruesome thing to show someone. I hope he got help!


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## vered (Mar 10, 2014)

I have not introduced myself though I have been enjoying the posts, patterns and advice for some time now.
I live in South Africa and have been volunteering with "Victim Support" for 12 years. I was born in Denmark. My father was a psychopath who came close to killing us in various ways. One of my earliest memories, age 3, is sitting in a police station with my mother holding my baby brother and bleeding profusely from her forehead - he had hit her with a bottle.

I am responding to your question: What are people doing in other countries?
In south Africa more than 2000 women are murdered by men they 'trust' every year (population 45 million). We do not have statistics for rape but it is estimated that 1 in every 4 women has been raped.

Babies as young as 3 months ... are raped (due to the HIV/Aids myth of being cured by sex with a virgin).

When a woman comes to a police station, complaining of domestic violence, a trauma counsellor is called to assist with her statement, assess the level of physical violence and find a way to protect and support her.

If the complainant has physical marks from violence we take her to a hospital where a doctor fills in a statement as to the nature of injuries. The perpetrator then gets arrested immediately and charged with assault - grievous bodily harm or intent to murder, depending on the harm caused to her.

However, very often the woman is too scared to charge him, or she doesn't want him arrested because he is the sole provider.
Then we will offer counselling, strengthen her self-esteem, assist her in finding a job or moving away.

When a woman comes to the police and lays a charge of assault against the perpetrator IT BECOMES THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE STATE TO PROTECT HER.

In fact - we are all responsible for the safety of each other.

In Cape Town we are starting a campaign of educational posters. We already have posters proclaiming the responsibility of fathers to pay MAINTENANCE. Posters and TV ads on women and children's rights. 

Thank you for starting this post! This is a very important subject which needs to be out in the open - abusers hide behind the victim's silence.


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## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)

Thanks Margie a very good point. Heck I almost bought myself this really cute stuffed bumble bee that was on sale today. Luckily I still have my kitty to love, but we all need someone or something.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

teapot said:


> Household pets, in a domestic violence situation, are also in jeopardy.


Absolutely! Often, women don't leave because they can't take their beloved pets. Remember Katrina? The abuser will not only destroy objects important to his victim, but abuse her pet also, to hurt her. These guys have been known to take the pets away and abandon them. Everyone should microchip their pets, but victims of DV, especially, have a better chance of recovering their pets if they include their vet's information on the microchip.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Becca said:


> There are many forms of abuse and not just mental, verbal, emotional and physical. Some forms come from outside the home: cultures, expectations, religious, governmental.
> 
> I have opened Pandora's Box. Now think amongst yourselves. But do remember, a whisper, a thought, shared with thousands of others becomes a roar of discontent.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

mojave said:


> A problem I may have missed seeing in the now many pages is related to the veterans from our many military incursions since World War II. Several persons of my acquaintance did all the right things to carefully choose a non-abuse prone spouse. What came home was far different - angry, demanding, quick to use physical force. PTSD and head injuries are the reasons for the changes. In too many instances the military and the VA are reticent to provide the level of help needed. As a result, women and children are dying.


This problem has been publicized in the past few years, but what took so long? My brother and my cousin went to Viet Nam and I still don't know who came back in their bodies.

Forty five years ago, my friend was married to a man in the Navy. He became very abusive and even tried to drown her in the kitchen sink. She got away from him, along with their baby daughter, but she spent the next several years in a war with the Navy, trying to get a divorce, child support, etc. It is unbelievable how the military protects these guys, and lets them loose on society when they are discharged. From what I hear on the news reports, military wives have it no better today.


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## MaggiePringlemeir (Jun 3, 2012)

One thing about our military vets -- the ones who come home with their heads messed up KNOW something is wrong. A pastor buddy in another state was in 'Nam. He STILL has flashbacks. To make them stop at night, he will hit his head against the wall until he literally passes out. Another friend spent 18 yeas in the Army -- from 'Nam to Afghanistan and he has severe PTSD. Right now he is an inpatient in a locked ward at the VA hospital. What we do to our warriors, both male and female, well, IMHO it's clearly unconstitutional. 

My late husband received his medical care, such as it was, from the VA. When we were waiting for his appointments, I made an effort to find and chat with some of the vets. When I 'd ask if they had been in 'Nam, most of these men got fearful looks in their eyes. Once they said yes, I would say "then I have something I need to say to you. It was a horrible experience for you, and I am ashamed of how returning vets were treated. You didn't want to go, but you went. Thank you for being willing to go, thank you for protecting my freedoms. I appreciate your sacrifice."

And these men -- would pull their shoulders back, often with tears in their eyes, and tell me that I was the first person who ever said that to them. Talk about abusive.

Now, this many years later, our returning warriors are receiving some recognition. Maybe we learned a little something.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

I have a cousin who served in Korea. He will have flash backs, such as a plane that was crop dusting and flying low, but a little too close. He was going to get his shotgun if it didn't stop. Our veterans have many many issues.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

It is good we are recognizing the sacrifices made by our military members. Caution in approaching one you do not personally know may be advisable and keeping your enthusiasm under control is a good idea. The reason is thanking a military person who served in Iraq and Afghanistan for their service can backfire. Many of them are dealing with intense guilt about surviving while their comrades came home in a body bag.


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## Revan (Jun 29, 2011)

I commend your thread on Domestic Violence, this and other social issues have been too often "the elephant in the room."

As a professional social worker there are other social concerns which are not talked about very much, and that is the large number of "homeless" children, those who run away from home for various reasons; including abuse of every kind.

There are too few shelters for teenagers and younger children who run away. Perhaps talking about these issues which affect every country, some more than others, but nonetheless do affect everyone, a solution could be found to help those who need humanity's assistance. Revan, MSW, BSW


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Yup, I don't even know how many women have told me they married Dr. Jekyll and woke up to Mr. Hyde, the day after the wedding. As I said before, these guys are very good actors and it doesn't matter if they are the doctor, dentist, or preacher--they fool everyone.



RachelL said:


> You are so right. My mother was verbally and emotionally abusive and as I was the baby in the family, I got the brunt of it. Moved out at 23 and right away met a guy who promised me the moon. Six months into the relationship I had a niggling feeling that I didn't want to see/be w/him for a few months, but I didn't listen to that little voice inside me. The day after our wedding, I woke up to a man I didn't know. In the hotel room, I knew I was no longer safe and I needed to watch my "Ps & Qs." He was his main concern and I was last on the list; never was really sure if I was even on his list. 3 weeks before our 25th anniversary, I told him the marriage was over. Best thing I ever did marriage-wise. Went for counseling and learned that I was typical of abused wives, going from an abusive mother to an abusive husband. It was uncanny how so many of the things my mother said to put me down and rob me of any sense of being wanted, were repeated by my husband. I now live alone and enjoy every minute of being myself and doing whatever I want. And I am very sure I have worth and friends who reinforce my worth.


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## Jean Keith (Feb 17, 2011)

This is an awful problem and those of us that have been through it and were able to get away, it still brings back a lot of horrific memories. When I sued for divorce, I had to find a job until I could support my children and myself. He took every dime we had even all the the children's savings account. I can remember until I found a job, my neighbor brought me milk for my baby, and for 3 solid weeks we had green beans from the garden and Kool Aid. 

You never get rid of them when there are children. They keep coming back for their visitation rights even when they choose not to pay child support. I spent every dime I had from a small inheritance for court costs for the custody trial as well as several times trying to get child support. He finally got the message in this regard, and knew that he best not try the physical abuse again either. My neighbor was always very present in his garage with a machete on visiting day. 

I was notified about a year ago that my ex had taken his life. The end of a sordid life.


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## Mitzi (May 8, 2011)

Years ago, a highly educated young woman who worked for my husband was being abused. My husband called her into his office a few times to ask about her 'bruises' that were visible. she denied them. It got worse and she finally admitted her husband was beating her. He brought her and her child to our home to hide out for a couple of weeks while her husband was moved out of 'her' military house. He arranged for counseling for her and joint counseling for her and her husband. I left our home early every morning with my own children and hers and went out of town for the day to not be alone in my own home if he should show up. The counselors said she was married to the worst scumbag and they just couldn't believe she tried to protect him. You guessed it, she gave up her military house, moved into a house in town with the abusive husband and also got transferred to a different job of less importance - all to stay with her abusive husband. Oh yes, while I would be doing their laundry, dishes and cleaning up after a nice dinner every evening that I had cooked, she would take her child aside and inform me how she spent 45 minutes of 'quality time' with her child every night. After I'd spent every day for a couple of weeks with her child, taking care of everything, I really got tired of hearing this crap.


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## Mitzi (May 8, 2011)

That said, I really really respect and admire those of you who were able to get out of bad situations. No one deserves that and I wish there was more help available for those who need the help and would use it.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Lkholcomb said:


> MIB: I read your comment on the domestic violence thread about your teacher. I was also abused and bullied by a teacher (a few others were too). I still have issues going into a classroom and feeling comfortable, even for my kids. Those things just never go away. But my mother stood up (I too didn't tell of the things happening, never physical abuse from her but she overlooked physical abuse from other students to me) and took me out of the school. The principle told her flat out he would believe the teacher over her, even though other students could cooberate my story. It was good we had people who stood up on our behalf though. I always feel bad for those who don't.


My first post here was so long, I didn't get around to adding what I think of as a very real triumph over my abusive 4th and 5th grade teacher (my elementary school had a practice of keeping classes with one teacher for 2 years. my class stayed with the same teacher for 1st and 2nd grades, and that teacher was absolutely wonderful!)

First of all, I don't think what I am about to tell you all is what anyone in a domestic abuse situations should ever consider doing. Anyway, just before Christmas of 2010 I googled my old teacher, got her phone number, and called her. When I asked her if she remembered me (after 50 years!!) she instantly said she did. I swear she sounded scared. I am 110% sure this is because of the way my father confronted her. I told her she had been a sadist, had damaged me and several other human beings and should spend some serious time on her knees praying for forgiveness.

She apologized profusely. I said I didn't accept her apology because there was no apology serious enough to match her actions. I didn't ask her why she had done the thing she'd done. I never cared about the "why". When i hung up the phone I sure felt amazingly good.

In 2011 I connected with a guy who had been in my class from kindergarten through 6th grade on Facebook and had been one of this teacher's other favorite targets. He and I were her two special favorites. Strangely enough he and I always scored 1st and 2nd on all the standardized tests we got. We traded 1st and 2nd place all through elementary school. I asked him what he thought of her and he said he believed she was a sadist, without any prompting from me. That was a great confirmation.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> How often have our mental health services failed those who need it the most? You read of many instances when families have sought help for their ill ones and have gotten nowhere until the worst happens and the justice system kicks in.


Our mental health system is another national disgrace. I'm sure another thread addressing this issue, would generate a lot of input.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for sharing and making us think.



Viddie said:


> You surely are an exceptional woman Alpaca Farmer, just reading a few of these pages makes one sick to think of grown men who have promised to love & cherish etc. their wives and then treat them like they were dirt under their feet.
> 
> My dear Mom was 49 when she took her own life, my Dad was an abuser to all of us 7 siblings and her as well, her sister told her to bring the kids and come live with her and her hubby, but mom said no he will find me and kill us all including you and your family. I would like to see more help for women and their children- you can go to shelters here, but is not a long term answer to ones problem... in a lot of cases like my mom's for instance, she had no money at all, no training in a specific field of work- no where that she could go where she felt safe ,so we feel she felt trapped.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Find a support group and/or therapist for your peace of mind. There are many others who have felt your pain and anger and gone on with their lives. Thinking of you.



Tracy7913 said:


> I thought I was over this whole damn thing. My father was an abuser to my mother, myself and my brother. I have spent years getting over this, "forgiving" but not forgetting.
> Until last summer when my brother told me something I was not aware of (our parents divorced and each got one, I went with our mother, he went with him). He told me that he beat our stepsister up in a bathroom at a party (she was a young child). When my brother saw her he said what happened? he pulled my brother into the bathroom and beat him up for 45 min (with the stepmother watching) and said I'll show you what happened.
> My question is this, does a man like that deserve to still walk the earth? Do the other people at the party who had to have seen those children beaten and hurting deserve to breathe?
> I really thought I was past that fucking asshole and could move on. But this kills me, I want him to die a really bad death. And I know this is hurting me too, I should let it go for my own sake. But my God how does a person like this justify his life, justify breathing when he has mentally and physically hurt so many people??
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Excellent advice.



kabedew said:


> One more quick note.....these abusers are charmers at first....or we wouldn't get involved with them. My late ex was known as a particularly caring and nurturing medical professional. "A good guy" that I still get asked about whenever I am in the hospital where he worked.
> 
> I am working with a therapist trying to get past the training I got as a child and as a wife. Despite all the years that have passed.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for sharing an international perspective. DV happens everywhere.



vered said:


> I have not introduced myself though I have been enjoying the posts, patterns and advice for some time now.
> I live in South Africa and have been volunteering with "Victim Support" for 12 years. I was born in Denmark. My father was a psychopath who came close to killing us in various ways. One of my earliest memories, age 3, is sitting in a police station with my mother holding my baby brother and bleeding profusely from her forehead - he had hit her with a bottle.
> 
> I am responding to your question: What are people doing in other countries?
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Not surprising that there is such difficulty reporting and trying military assault cases. I can't believe that there is any problem removing such cases from military control. It has been proven that the military cannot handle the situation.



kathycam said:


> This problem has been publicized in the past few years, but what took so long? My brother and my cousin went to Viet Nam and I still don't know who came back in their bodies.
> 
> Forty five years ago, my friend was married to a man in the Navy. He became very abusive and even tried to drown her in the kitchen sink. She got away from him, along with their baby daughter, but she spent the next several years in a war with the Navy, trying to get a divorce, child support, etc. It is unbelievable how the military protects these guys, and lets them loose on society when they are discharged. From what I hear on the news reports, military wives have it no better today.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Finding that you have strength as an adult to confront an abuser is validating. Bravo.



MaidInBedlam said:


> My first post here was so long, I didn't get around to adding what I think of as a very real triumph over my abusive 4th and 5th grade teacher (my elementary school had a practice of keeping classes with one teacher for 2 years. my class stayed with the same teacher for 1st and 2nd grades, and that teacher was absolutely wonderful!)
> 
> First of all, I don't think what I am about to tell you all is what anyone in a domestic abuse situations should ever consider doing. Anyway, just before Christmas of 2010 I googled my old teacher, got her phone number, and called her. When I asked her if she remembered me (after 50 years!!) she instantly said she did. I swear she sounded scared. I am 110% sure this is because of the way my father confronted her. I told her she had been a sadist, had damaged me and several other human beings and should spend some serious time on her knees praying for forgiveness.
> 
> ...


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## Max amaze (Oct 28, 2012)

He could not stop drinking went to hospital numerous times admitted discharged she stood by him for years he was never violent towards her or the children they separated and that morning he came to see children off to school and for some unknown reason I then lost my youngest daughter I was the 1st person on the scene I will never forget that day Marilyn


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Mitzi said:


> That said, I really really respect and admire those of you who were able to get out of bad situations. No one deserves that and I wish there was more help available for those who need the help and would use it.


As I stated in an earlier post, most victims will go back to their abuser, 2-3 times. I do know how you feel. I have been so disheartened, after putting a lot of time and effort into finding someone a place to live, getting her children in a new school, finding financial, medical and legal help and domestic abuse counseling and then, just when she is nearly free, she goes back to her abuser.

I hope you know, you and your husband did the right thing. It was not her fault that she wanted to get her dream and life back with the man she loved. Hopefully, when the time came that she could no longer be fooled by his lying promises, she was able to get away, uninjured and alive.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

RachelL said:


> I never understood why when a person in a POW camp tried to or did escape, he was seen as a hero. But when a woman tried to escape her prison of abuse/horror she was seen as the trouble maker and too often was told to stay or go back.


Because women were not "real" people who deserved respect. They "needed" a man to take care of them. It was just sick, very sick. And made no sense like you say.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

NJG said:


> And along that same line, blaming the rape victim for the way they were dressed. "They were asking for it."
> There have also been recent stories of abuse by sports coaches against athletes.
> Some young person can have a double wammy against them if it goes on in their home and then it happens to them in school too. Besides that a young girl may actually choose an abusive boyfriend, like her father, and then get it in school too.


Yes, I was a rape victim who was blamed (not by my husband or councilor or family but "others") and with severe PTSD from that. It is exactly like that.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Margie p said:


> 30 years ago I hid a very young PFC wife from her husband. He was an MP. She could not go to the authorities. She reached out to a friend . Who reached out to me. That was the first time. I have helped teenagers. But usually I went to the police for them.
> You would think that family members would be the first ones to notice abuse and to help. I have not lived in my hometown for 40 years. My sister lived on the family farm with the extended family. My family including my mother always sided with him. When a nun suggested my sister get out , I helped her pack up. She moved to another state. Five years later I went back and got my mother. She had alzheimer,s. Your mind will shut down to escape pain. Recently my sister moved again. This time I am the only one who knows where she is at. She has recovered enough that she is working with a church to shelter anyone who needs a place to recover.
> Any of you can help, just start really noticing people. The shelters are always in need of soft toys, afghans, clothes. I have seen 17 year old guys hold stuffed animals when in counseling sessions. No one is too old to snuggle stuffed animals even 90 year olds . Your knitted gift of love may be what gives someone who has given up hope a reason to hang on.


Yes, often family excuse it, but it is because they know what the person is going through. With PTSD the person has an honest to goodness sickness. Often with dis-associative flashbacks they are literally, in their mind, back in the situation that caused it. I relived my rape a million or more times and each time I didn't know where I was. I balled up in a small space and cried and screamed and hit out. My husband was learned enough to stay back and he learned from the councilors what to do to help me out. But while you can feel bad for the person, if they are violent and actively going after the other person (as in many who return from war, I curled up to try to escape but many of them were taught to attack so that is what they do), you need to get the family out of the way so they are not hurt AND help the person suffering to get help.

I think that people who are seeing a family member go through it have sympathy for that person and they don't think it through enough to realize that the real help that the person with PTSD needs is not only psych help but also they need help to ensure that their family is safe. Often they don't WANT to hurt their family and live with the guilt (hell I still live with my guilt for swinging at my husband, who stayed back, but I can only imagine how bad it would be for those who actually connect with their innocent family). By allowing them to hit their family and not get it out it just piles more psych issues on top of the overload of PTSD. They family need out to help the person with PTSD.

May I add to your suggestion regarding things for the homes of those escaping? Going in and teaching them HOW to knit and crochet and such is helpful for anybody in a stressful situation (provided they don't get too much more stressed learning). They often come out feeling worthless and that they have failed, but by giving them the ability to make something then you give them something they can physically look at and remind them that they aren't worthless. You are not worthless if you can produce something.... every time they look at the think THEY made they can see they DO have something to give the world, they are not worthless. It also can help greatly with stress and anxiety.


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## dawn1960 (Jan 5, 2014)

kabedew said:


> One more quick note.....these abusers are charmers at first....or we wouldn't get involved with them. My late ex was known as a particularly caring and nurturing medical professional. "A good guy" that I still get asked about whenever I am in the hospital where he worked.
> 
> I am working with a therapist trying to get past the training I got as a child and as a wife. Despite all the years that have passed.
> 
> ...


So true. Unfortunately, they can come over as super attentive at first, they want to spend all of their time with you - then begins the isolating. This has happened to me twice in both my long-term serious relationships. It took me a long time the first time round to see just how unhealthy our marriage had become, my self-esteem was rock bottom. I am actually ashamed that it happened to me again - I feel that I was weak in allowing myself to be manipulated, but that person professed to love me and actually had no friends or social life outside of our relationship. Sadly I saw that, at the time, as his commitment to us. I am now trying to rebuild my confidence and self-esteem and getting lots of support from female friends, some of whom have been through similar experiences.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> I just got through page 6 of 15 and it is time to do some chores around the house.
> 
> Sometimes the woman who stays with an abuser is displaying "Stockholm syndrome", a defense mechanism that seems to dilute the horror by bonding with the abuser to diffuse the abuse.
> 
> ...


In addition to Stolkholm syndrome many are very manipulated. Manipulation is very intense and very complicated in these situations and starts early, before any physical or mental abuse starts. It takes special people who can see the web of manipulation to understand what is actually happening (I happen to be one of those people and was able to help MIL out of an abusive relationship with her one son and have helped others). Many times when the victims are told of some of the manipulations things they don't believe it because it mimics the regular "caring" things others do.

Often people judge women or men for going back, but that is like judging a fly that is caught in a web that instead of being wrapped in all the silk has managed to break a couple threads but is still greatly stuck to the web. The fly is thrashing around and gets caught up even more. The manipulation doesn't stop because the abuser isn't present. That manipulation is so detailed that is continues even when the abuser isn't there. It is rather hard to describe, but the spider web is the only one I can think of to somewhat describe it and do it justice.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

mojave said:


> It is good we are recognizing the sacrifices made by our military members. Caution in approaching one you do not personally know may be advisable and keeping your enthusiasm under control is a good idea. The reason is thanking a military person who served in Iraq and Afghanistan for their service can backfire. Many of them are dealing with intense guilt about surviving while their comrades came home in a body bag.


Also sometimes thanking them can make their guilt worse because they think of the times they had to shoot people, even kids, and in thanking them they are reminded of that and think, "Why am I being thanked for THAT". I had never thought about it until I saw a documentary regarding PTSD (I think on HBO) and the vet was talking about that.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> My first post here was so long, I didn't get around to adding what I think of as a very real triumph over my abusive 4th and 5th grade teacher (my elementary school had a practice of keeping classes with one teacher for 2 years. my class stayed with the same teacher for 1st and 2nd grades, and that teacher was absolutely wonderful!)
> 
> First of all, I don't think what I am about to tell you all is what anyone in a domestic abuse situations should ever consider doing. Anyway, just before Christmas of 2010 I googled my old teacher, got her phone number, and called her. When I asked her if she remembered me (after 50 years!!) she instantly said she did. I swear she sounded scared. I am 110% sure this is because of the way my father confronted her. I told her she had been a sadist, had damaged me and several other human beings and should spend some serious time on her knees praying for forgiveness.
> 
> ...


I am glad you got to confront her as an adult and on the "same playing field". I remember just seeing the teacher I had in 3rd grade when I was a teenager. I still was a bit scared. Funny enough though, she was always picking on the boys (and non-lady like girls..... which I was and served me well in my chosen career). She got married and had kids and ended up having...... THREE BOYS.... and finally she had one girl. It was ironic, but I always wondered how she was with her own boys and hoped she wasn't abusive. From her SIL it didn't sound like she was, but was all "do whatever you want" with her kids (of course her sister in law didn't see her all the time). I think life has a way of being ironic some times.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

MyKentuckyGirl said:


> I have been a victim of one or another kind of abuse ever since I was a child. For a very long time I did not understand why I acted the way I did when in a relationship. Always finding a reason to destroy it. Never to trust. I still have those problems, but now I work through them. The problem was a didn't remember what had happened till I was 30 years old. Now at 51 having been in and out of therapy, on medicine, and also having medical and mental problems. It would take way to long for me to talk about all of it here. But one of the good things to come out of all of this. I learned to fight for what is right for my two sons and myself. Which has helped in the medical issues. The latest fight is my second battle with cancer. The first one was thyroid cancer, this time it's a rare form of breast cancer. I go in for surgery, on April 4th. And will not know if my surgeon is only taking part of one breast or all of both till I wake up. What I'm trying to say is, if I had not learned to be a survivor of abuse, I would not have the strength of will to be a survivor of all my medical and mental issues. Even what is one of the horrible evils of this world can make us victims stronger.


Dear lady,

I am sure your sisters-in-knitting join me in praying for your complete recovery from your surgery. You have overcome such horrors, and have shown an indomitable strength. I hope that once you climb this fence, you find green pastures and lovely flowers in your future. If you choose another relationship, know that there are some really good men out there, loving and sweet natured. Don't settle for less.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm so sorry for the horror you have to endure. I don't know what else to say.



Max amaze said:


> He could not stop drinking went to hospital numerous times admitted discharged she stood by him for years he was never violent towards her or the children they separated and that morning he came to see children off to school and for some unknown reason I then lost my youngest daughter I was the 1st person on the scene I will never forget that day Marilyn


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## gma11331 (Oct 18, 2011)

Re MaidinBedlam confronting her teacher years later: My DD was molested by the father of the children she babysat for and we didn't learn of it until years later and she became the classic textbook case: alcohol abuse, unable to sustain an appropriate relationship, self-esteem nil, etc. He and his family had moved away but I found his address and about ten years ago I wrote him a letter letting him know how his actions had affected her life and that of her four children (from different relationships and three of who I practically raised). Then recently her 23 y/o daughter decided she wanted to let him know also and wrote him a long letter. DD is 48 now and very active in AA but her life was scarred beyond belief and I hope he lives his life knowing that another letter might be coming around the corner to remind him of his transgressions. And I pretty sure my DD wasn't his only victim during his "career."


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## timannmom (Mar 4, 2013)

MaidInBedlam .. love what you were saying. Very true, there are many different kinds of abuse.
I love reading this topic! I hate the fact that some women got abused and the police didn't do much about it. That is so sad. But glad that you all bring this fact out.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Max amaze said:


> He could not stop drinking went to hospital numerous times admitted discharged she stood by him for years he was never violent towards her or the children they separated and that morning he came to see children off to school and for some unknown reason I then lost my youngest daughter I was the 1st person on the scene I will never forget that day Marilyn


So there was no warning after all. I find it hard to believe that someone could change so drastically without anyone noticing it was happening. The hospital doctors have a lot to answer for.

Marilyn, thank you for being willing to talk about the most horrible day of your life. I hope some women will see what might happen if they don't protect themselves.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

dawn1960 said:


> So true. Unfortunately, they can come over as super attentive at first, they want to spend all of their time with you - then begins the isolating. This has happened to me twice in both my long-term serious relationships. It took me a long time the first time round to see just how unhealthy our marriage had become, my self-esteem was rock bottom. I am actually ashamed that it happened to me again - I feel that I was weak in allowing myself to be manipulated, but that person professed to love me and actually had no friends or social life outside of our relationship. Sadly I saw that, at the time, as his commitment to us. I am now trying to rebuild my confidence and self-esteem and getting lots of support from female friends, some of whom have been through similar experiences.


Dawn, if it happened to you again, that doesn't mean you're weak. It only means that, like most people, you built up certain habits from childhood that made you find some men - in this case, the wrong men - attractive. It's just your acceptance of social blame that makes you call yourself weak. It's not easy, when you've been manipulated into taking on responsibility for all your bad feelings, to jump up and sing "I am woman, hear me roar."

You did the best you could do, and you got out when you could. That took real strength, and now you can continue to build on it.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Dawn, if it happened to you again, that doesn't mean you're weak. It only means that, like most people, you built up certain habits from childhood that made you find some men - in this case, the wrong men - attractive. It's just your acceptance of social blame that makes you call yourself weak. It's not easy, when you've been manipulating into taking on responsibility for all your bad feelings, to jump up and sing "I am woman, hear me roar."
> 
> You did the best you could do, and you got out when you could. That took real strength, and now you can continue to build on it.


Dawn, also the master manipulators look for women or other people who they know carry the "guilty for being duped again" characteristic. It is actually a hold over from your previous time (or was somehow taught to you). You should not feel guilty (easy for anybody outside the situation to say, I know). Instead take comfort in the strength you had to get out. Many women never make it that far and their out is a coffin.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

vered said:


> I have not introduced myself though I have been enjoying the posts, patterns and advice for some time now.
> I live in South Africa and have been volunteering with "Victim Support" for 12 years. I was born in Denmark. My father was a psychopath who came close to killing us in various ways. One of my earliest memories, age 3, is sitting in a police station with my mother holding my baby brother and bleeding profusely from her forehead - he had hit her with a bottle.
> 
> I am responding to your question: What are people doing in other countries?
> ...


Vered, I'm proud that you chose this thread as the occasion for your first posting. There's so much to comment on in your message that I can't do it justice. I find it reassuring that your government has taken part in trying to solve this problem, because it seems to be so entrenched. I don't the official statistics for the US, but the article that opened this thread said that 1 woman in every 4 experiences domestic violence and that every 6 hours another woman is killed by it. (I did the math; that comes to almost 1,500 a year, in a population of 300 million.)

We could use an approach similar to yours. We have what's called the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA), which seems to be ignored by local police departments in many jurisdictions, and doesn't make it the responsibility of the federal government to protect women who've brought charges against their abusers. All a woman has to call on is her town's police, and so often they know the abuser or they think the woman is exaggerating or even that she brought it on herself.

I was struck by your saying that 3-month-old babies are raped because of the wholly untrue belief that sex with a virgin will cure AIDS. These poor babies must be torn apart by such acts and will never live normal lives. I understand that education is being offered, but rumors and unfounded beliefs have far more strength than education, perhaps unless it comes from men who have been imprisoned just for that crime.

Thank you for this information and for using your own (your mother's) experience to help women in such bad situations. Keep posting; you have a lot of wisdom to share, and I bet you do interesting knitting, too.


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## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)

Don't you think the men who served in WWII don't have some awful memories to deal with? I had an uncle who was on Normandy beach the day of the invasion. He said you just wished to hell you would get shot and get it over with. The difference is people didn't discuss the feelings afterwards. They came home, got a job and went on with life. My dad couldn't get home in time for his only son's funeral and I still have the telegram that was sent. I'm sure many families had to deal with the same type of situation, but they just went on with life and didn't have any grief counselor or anyone other than family and friends to lean on. They had to be tougher. Yes all of this caused my family some problems and has caused me a lifetime of problems, but I didn't do drugs, get drunk or anything like that - just have to chalk it up and go on with life.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Vered, I'm proud that you chose this thread as the occasion for your first posting. There's so much to comment on in your message that I can't do it justice. I find it reassuring that your government has taken part in trying to solve this problem, because it seems to be so entrenched. I don't the official statistics for the US, but the article that opened this thread said that 1 woman in every 4 experiences domestic violence and that every 6 hours another woman is killed by it. (I did the math; that comes to almost 1,500 a year, in a population of 300 million.)
> 
> We could use an approach similar to yours. We have what's called the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA), which seems to be ignored by local police departments in many jurisdictions, and doesn't make it the responsibility of the federal government to protect women who've brought charges against their abusers. All a woman has to call on is her town's police, and so often they know the abuser or they think the woman is exaggerating or even that she brought it on herself.
> 
> ...


I assume most of the infants die. I forgot what country this is happening in, but more enlightened humans are trying to stop that atrocity.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

gma11331 said:


> Re MaidinBedlam confronting her teacher years later: My DD was molested by the father of the children she babysat for and we didn't learn of it until years later and she became the classic textbook case: alcohol abuse, unable to sustain an appropriate relationship, self-esteem nil, etc. He and his family had moved away but I found his address and about ten years ago I wrote him a letter letting him know how his actions had affected her life and that of her four children (from different relationships and three of who I practically raised). Then recently her 23 y/o daughter decided she wanted to let him know also and wrote him a long letter. DD is 48 now and very active in AA but her life was scarred beyond belief and I hope he lives his life knowing that another letter might be coming around the corner to remind him of his transgressions. And I pretty sure my DD wasn't his only victim during his "career."


You know, I don't think it is uncommon for baby sitters to be molested. My son's friend was having a hard time coping with his parents going through a divorce and I went to speak with his mother. It turns out that a baby sitter's parents let her know that her husband had tried to molest their daughter. It got her to thinking that over the years she had had a hard time getting sitters, even though she paid more than anyone else. She always thought her children gave them a hard time. As she got over the shock and started thinking about it, she remembered a former sitter who had had a nervous breakdown years before and had been hospitalized. She called the girl's family to find out if her husband had done anything to their daughter in the past. YES! Can you imagine? I have never understood how that family could have let him get away it. There is no knowing how many he abused over the years. No one has ever charged him and his now ex wife never wanted her children to know what their father was. He sits right up front in my former church every week, volunteers for every youth group event, and is so well liked and respected, that no one who knows him would ever believe what he is--except all the girls that he damaged over the years.


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## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

Yet another reason to have a pet:

http://local12.com/news/features/around-the-web/stories/story-of-dog-warning-parents-of-abusive-babysitter-going-viral-again-wkrc.shtml#.Ux9xAPldXCd

It's from last September, but 'hot' again.


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> This seems to run in your family, kwright: meeting old school friends and falling in love. Like mother, like daughter?


It seems to be a bit safer. The friends you know from childhood have good hearts.


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## Mitzi (May 8, 2011)

Not surprising that there is such difficulty reporting and trying military assault cases. I can't believe that there is any problem removing such cases from military control. It has been proven that the military cannot handle the situation.

It is up to the individual military commander. They can be taken care of very well if the individual commander has the chutspa to do it. As in all walks of life, there are big differences in people. Some choose to ignore or look the other way while others tackle the problem with all it's inconveniences.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Dawn, if it happened to you again, that doesn't mean you're weak. It only means that, like most people, you built up certain habits from childhood that made you find some men - in this case, the wrong men - attractive. It's just your acceptance of social blame that makes you call yourself weak. It's not easy, when you've been manipulated into taking on responsibility for all your bad feelings, to jump up and sing "I am woman, hear me roar."
> 
> You did the best you could do, and you got out when you could. That took real strength, and now you can continue to build on it.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

kittykatzmom said:


> Don't you think the men who served in WWII don't have some awful memories to deal with? I had an uncle who was on Normandy beach the day of the invasion. He said you just wished to hell you would get shot and get it over with. The difference is people didn't discuss the feelings afterwards. They came home, got a job and went on with life. My dad couldn't get home in time for his only son's funeral and I still have the telegram that was sent. I'm sure many families had to deal with the same type of situation, but they just went on with life and didn't have any grief counselor or anyone other than family and friends to lean on. They had to be tougher. Yes all of this caused my family some problems and has caused me a lifetime of problems, but I didn't do drugs, get drunk or anything like that - just have to chalk it up and go on with life.


I think most people who serve in wartime have terrible memories. What I've heard about WWII vets is that they don't talk about the experience, at least not voluntarily.

There's also the possibility that because WWII was considered a "just war," they have less guilt than vets from the later wars, which have not been entirely justifiable.

They had PTSD back then, too, but they called it shell-shock. Those guys never got treated and never got over it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I assume most of the infants die. I forgot what country this is happening in, but more enlightened humans are trying to stop that atrocity.


It was South Africa. Atrocity is the right word for it.


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## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)

WWII men were more patriotic than they are now. They went to war to serve their country and keep America free. Makes me sad the mess America is in today - the WWII vets would roll over in their graves.

Having to look another human being in the eye and kill them is not good and I'm sure the WWII vets just dealt with it when they got back home. They had to earn a living and put that part of live behind them. It was either kill them or be killed.

I salute ALL the Vets! :thumbup:


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

No matter how many people tell you that you can leave, get out, or whatever, the woman is NOT able to leave until she is able. I had a friend tell me for months before my youngest was born that I could leave. I had an education. I was better off than most. I could go get a teaching job. But, I was not able to leave. He said he'd kill us all, and my family. [I was not able to express that a the divorce.]

My ex had lost his job, and taken a job in Houston. I stayed in Corpus Christi in our house to continue going to my doctor until the baby was born. My ex had moved in with my mother temporarily until I came with the children. We arrived Nov. 5th. when the baby was 2 1/2 weeks old. The job in Houston lasted six months. The company had a reputation for hiring then firing people after six months. He did not know that at the time.

I interrupted him writing a suicide note about the time my youngest was six months old. He had the gun on the bed next to him. This was Thursday.

I went to my brothers to see about leaving. While I was meeting with them, was when he chased my daughter outside and beat her with the belt. My neighbor saw it. When Mother and I came home, my daughter was in bed. We thought she was dead. She never took naps. That was on Friday.

On Saturday, my friend came and got me and my elder two to go to the mall. She actually took me to her house to talk to her brother who was an EMT. He told me about their neighbor who went ballistic and killed his family. I called my brothers and asked them to go to mom's and get mother and my baby from her house and bring them to another friend of hers. My brothers gave my ex a $100 and told him to get his stuff and leave. He was no longer allowed in their mother's house. I met mother at her friend's house, and then went to the shelter.

My ex- sat out in front of my girlfriend's house until two in the morning when her brother told him to leave or he'd call the cops.

On Friday, my brother's and I had made plans to get us out of mother's house when my ex- had gone on a job interview out of state. I decided not to wait until Monday after talking to my EMT friend. My ex took the job in Atlanta, Georgia.

I believe that God brought me home to mother's in order for me to find the strength to leave. The children were in danger. That is usually the straw that brakes the camel's back.


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

Thank you PP for starting the post.


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## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)

Good luck - you will be ok, but it takes time to heal.


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

Oh, yes. The baby is not 27 years old.


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## MaggiePringlemeir (Jun 3, 2012)

Revan said:


> As a professional social worker there are other social concerns which are not talked about very much, and that is the large number of "homeless" children, those who run away from home for various reasons; including abuse of every kind.
> 
> There are too few shelters for teenagers and younger children who run away. Perhaps talking about these issues which affect every country, some more than others, but nonetheless do affect everyone, a solution could be found to help those who need humanity's assistance. Revan, MSW, BSW


Revan,

Yes. My background is like yours. As an ordained minister, I have counselled many. That continued as a therapist for more years. You and I, and like many others here, have seen these pains far too many times.

I agree with you that we are NOT serving our youth well. We tell them if there is abuse in the home, to tell a teacher or clergyperson. Unfortunately, far too many times these youths are not believed and wind up being sent back to the same situation. Except now it is worse -- the abusers are embarassed and angry at being accused, so those youngsters are deemed responsible and in need of punishment for their disloyalty to the family unit. Sometimes the next time we see them they are being wheeled into an ambulance or in a hospital ER. Oh yes, I have seen all of this and much more.

So -- we have 2 distinctly different types of runaways. We cannot lump them together. Group # 1 are kids who, for whatever reason, have fallen in with a bad crowd, run with gangs, get involved with crime. These kids cause their families great pain and embarassment and when they run away, they run far away, either to continue illegal behavior or to try to build a new life. Group # 2 are the kids who have such an unbearable home environment that for their own mental and physical health they feel that they have to get away to be safe. These kids, I maintain are not so much running away as they are running to safety. These kids SHOULD run away, and we SHOULD be providing safe houses for them.

Shame on us as adults for not noticing the signs that these kids are in trouble and need our help. Again, I believe that children of all ages belong to all of us, and it is up to all of us to nuture and protect.


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## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)

As a professional social worker there are other social concerns which are not talked about very much, and that is the large number of "homeless" children, those who run away from home for various reasons; including abuse of every kind.

There are too few shelters for teenagers and younger children who run away. Perhaps talking about these issues which affect every country, some more than others, but nonetheless do affect everyone, a solution could be found to help those who need humanity's assistance. Revan, MSW, BSW

Yet our govemnAs a professional social worker there are other social concerns which are not talked about very much, and that is the large number of "homeless" children, those who run away from home for various reasons; including abuse of every kind.

There are too few shelters for teenagers and younger children who run away. Perhaps talking about these issues which affect every country, some more than others, but nonetheless do affect everyone, a solution could be found to help those who need humanity's assistance. Revan, MSW, BSW
************************
Yet our government will help other countries and not help our own! This is a MAJOR pet peeve with me.


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## MaggiePringlemeir (Jun 3, 2012)

kittykatzmom said:


> Yet our government will help other countries and not help our own! This is a MAJOR pet peeve with me.


There's a quote -- I think it was Thomas Jefferson but don't hold me to that -- that people get the government they deserve. He was referring to these United States and our process of electing who we want to have in positions of authority.

I've also heard it as "you vote with your dollars". If you don't like the content of a tv show, then don't buy product from the advertisers and send them a letter telling them WHY you will not be buying it.

I believe that we've become somewhat apathethic and complacent, and maybe a little bit lazy. Average voter turnout in a non-presidential election is usually under 25%. Off elections fare worse. Which means, a very few voters are actually making decisions that affect all of us. If you don't vote, you have no right to complain.

Most rational adults will agree that some specific groups of individuals do require special care and protection. To elect those who publicly announce their intention of dimishing human services does not serve our purpose. So we cannot be lazy and vote a straight party ticket or a union slate, or the newspapers endorsements. We need to find out about each and every candidate for ourselves to know who is best suited to help build us the kind of govrnment we deserve and we want.

Sorry -- didn't mean to get preachy but this is definately a series of my personal hot buttons.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm glad to hear this. Thanks.



gma11331 said:


> Re MaidinBedlam confronting her teacher years later: My DD was molested by the father of the children she babysat for and we didn't learn of it until years later and she became the classic textbook case: alcohol abuse, unable to sustain an appropriate relationship, self-esteem nil, etc. He and his family had moved away but I found his address and about ten years ago I wrote him a letter letting him know how his actions had affected her life and that of her four children (from different relationships and three of who I practically raised). Then recently her 23 y/o daughter decided she wanted to let him know also and wrote him a long letter. DD is 48 now and very active in AA but her life was scarred beyond belief and I hope he lives his life knowing that another letter might be coming around the corner to remind him of his transgressions. And I pretty sure my DD wasn't his only victim during his "career."


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I believe that abusers are much attuned to vulnerabilities. What might be perceived by a normal person as shy, politeness, might alert an abuser to an opportunity. This may not be the best example. I'll think.



Poor Purl said:


> Dawn, if it happened to you again, that doesn't mean you're weak. It only means that, like most people, you built up certain habits from childhood that made you find some men - in this case, the wrong men - attractive. It's just your acceptance of social blame that makes you call yourself weak. It's not easy, when you've been manipulated into taking on responsibility for all your bad feelings, to jump up and sing "I am woman, hear me roar."
> 
> You did the best you could do, and you got out when you could. That took real strength, and now you can continue to build on it.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Better than a nanny cam if you're smart enough to listen to your pet.



Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> Yet another reason to have a pet:
> 
> http://local12.com/news/features/around-the-web/stories/story-of-dog-warning-parents-of-abusive-babysitter-going-viral-again-wkrc.shtml#.Ux9xAPldXCd
> 
> It's from last September, but 'hot' again.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put!



Mitzi said:


> Not surprising that there is such difficulty reporting and trying military assault cases. I can't believe that there is any problem removing such cases from military control. It has been proven that the military cannot handle the situation.
> 
> It is up to the individual military commander. They can be taken care of very well if the individual commander has the chutspa to do it. As in all walks of life, there are big differences in people. Some choose to ignore or look the other way while others tackle the problem with all it's inconveniences.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Pardon me, but it seems that you dislike the idea of being in touch with your feelings. Do you consider it a waste of time? Some might say you risk an important, intimate part of your life.



kittykatzmom said:


> WWII men were more patriotic than they are now. They went to war to serve their country and keep America free. Makes me sad the mess America is in today - the WWII vets would roll over in their graves.
> 
> Having to look another human being in the eye and kill them is not good and I'm sure the WWII vets just dealt with it when they got back home. They had to earn a living and put that part of live behind them. It was either kill them or be killed.
> 
> I salute ALL the Vets! :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

They say God works in mysterious ways. I'm so glad your family survived.



kwright said:


> No matter how many people tell you that you can leave, get out, or whatever, the woman is NOT able to leave until she is able. I had a friend tell me for months before my youngest was born that I could leave. I had an education. I was better off than most. I could go get a teaching job. But, I was not able to leave. He said he'd kill us all, and my family. [I was not able to express that a the divorce.]
> 
> My ex had lost his job, and taken a job in Houston. I stayed in Corpus Christi in our house to continue going to my doctor until the baby was born. My ex had moved in with my mother temporarily until I came with the children. We arrived Nov. 5th. when the baby was 2 1/2 weeks old. The job in Houston lasted six months. The company had a reputation for hiring then firing people after six months. He did not know that at the time.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I've heard it said that when a child is acting out, the problem is in the entire family unit.



MaggiePringlemeir said:


> Revan,
> 
> Yes. My background is like yours. As an ordained minister, I have counselled many. That continued as a therapist for more years. You and I, and like many others here, have seen these pains far too many times.
> 
> ...


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I believe that abusers are much attuned to vulnerabilities. What might be perceived by a normal person as shy, politeness, might alert an abuser to an opportunity. This may not be the best example. I'll think.


But it's true. If an abuser finds someone who will shrink back rather than shout bloody murder, he's found a possible victim.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

kittykatzmom said:


> Don't you think the men who served in WWII don't have some awful memories to deal with? I had an uncle who was on Normandy beach the day of the invasion. He said you just wished to hell you would get shot and get it over with. The difference is people didn't discuss the feelings afterwards. They came home, got a job and went on with life. My dad couldn't get home in time for his only son's funeral and I still have the telegram that was sent. I'm sure many families had to deal with the same type of situation, but they just went on with life and didn't have any grief counselor or anyone other than family and friends to lean on. They had to be tougher. Yes all of this caused my family some problems and has caused me a lifetime of problems, but I didn't do drugs, get drunk or anything like that - just have to chalk it up and go on with life.


Yes, they did have horrid memories. But it is a mistake to think that they didn't have PTSD and just "sucked it up and dealt with it". Many folks who went through that in WWII, WWI and even before changed drastically. They would use alcohol, but it was more accepted. They would abuse their wives and children, but it was overlooked a lot because of the times. Sometimes it was just a hell that they lived with quietly (which people do today as well). Please don't think it didn't exist. It did. It just had different names. The one that I remember of the top of my head was "shell shock". You didn't see a lot of men coming back from war with it, but that was because they got a short rest and were sent right back. Then when they had the psych issues that stemmed from it were shot for "cowardess" or whatever they wanted to call it. THAT was why you didn't see it that much. PTSD has a long documented history, not just in the age of "feelings" being accepted.

It is actually the attitude that military has had for so long of "suck it up and deal" that contributed so much to the delay of care and damage done further to the person and the family. Now that it is talked about it allows for treatment and hopefully will continue to allow rates of issues to decrease.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

kittykatzmom said:


> Yet our government will help other countries and not help our own! This is a MAJOR pet peeve with me.


kittykatzmom, did you know that the US spends less than 1% of its budget on foreign aid (according to the Kaiser Family Foundation)? If we cut it out completely, it still wouldn't make much difference in what the government can spend on its own people.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

kittykatzmom said:


> WWII men were more patriotic than they are now. They went to war to serve their country and keep America free. Makes me sad the mess America is in today - the WWII vets would roll over in their graves.
> 
> Having to look another human being in the eye and kill them is not good and I'm sure the WWII vets just dealt with it when they got back home. They had to earn a living and put that part of live behind them. It was either kill them or be killed.
> 
> I salute ALL the Vets! :thumbup:


I have personally worked with people from previous wars to our own who suffer pretty badly. When they go in the hospital I've seen them become ver, very violent in their flashbacks. It is a great disservice to what they and their families go through to just assume they are ok.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

damemary said:


> Pardon me, but it seems that you dislike the idea of being in touch with your feelings. Do you consider it a waste of time? Some might say you risk an important, intimate part of your life.


 :thumbup:


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## Wally-the-bear (Jan 17, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> There's a facet to the war on women that we've never discussed in the thread of that name: domestic violence, the brunt of which is borne almost entirely by women.
> 
> Here are some questions we can deal with; I'm sure many of you will come up with more:
> 
> ...


I have read 20 pages of this post. I applaud the women that got away. I would like to know how one finds help and manages to get away.

Here are answers to the questions posed:
1.) Do you know any victims of domestic abuse? What have they tried to make it stop?

*Yes, I know someone. Has done nothing because "she should be grateful he doesn't beat her" according to herself.*

2.)How have children been affected by seeing one parent beat another?

*They often fall into the same trap that the abused fell into or turn into abusers themselves. That's what seems "normal" to them.*

3.) Is the problem as bad outside the United States, and what have other countries done about it.

*Yes it is. When asking a cop "Does one of us have to die before you guys do something?" his answer was YES*

The following is from my dear friend I have known for many years. I wish I could help.
I grew up in an abusive home. That abuse stopped when I was 16 and defended myself. This ability to fight back came at a very high price. I escaped to another continent .There I met the most charming, helpful man that I eventually married. He never laid a hand on me. I should be so grateful because he doesnt hit me.  He controls EVERYTHING. I have no friends. I have no family. I have no money. In order to let him save the money he earned for our retirement, I babysat. I get a minimal social security check. He gets a sizable check that he keeps. I should be so grateful that he pays the bills and buys food. Whatever he likes. I have food allergies and cant eat much of what he eats. He is after my savings but cant seem to get to them. My life is a living hell and I am stuck with it.  I have no family to take me in until I find some other place. We have an only child that lives 3 days drive from me. Im sure I wouldnt be welcomed If I showed up at the door. I cant tell anyone how miserable I am because I should be grateful that I dont receive beatings and he pays the bills. I have made my bed and must lie in it.  I would rather be dead, but suicide is not easy to accomplish as I have found out. I see the billboards that say to call a number if suicide is on my mind. *Then what? *Talking does not free me from this situation. I cant attend meetings because he insists on going with me. If I could leave, where would I go? 500 Dollars a month is NOT enough to live on. I lack the courage and good sense to leave. At least I know what Im in for when I stay. Out there is to frightening. So I get up every morning "playing" the role of my happy life.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Lkholcomb said:


> Yes, they did have horrid memories. But it is a mistake to think that they didn't have PTSD and just "sucked it up and dealt with it". Many folks who went through that in WWII, WWI and even before changed drastically. They would use alcohol, but it was more accepted. They would abuse their wives and children, but it was overlooked a lot because of the times. Sometimes it was just a hell that they lived with quietly (which people do today as well). Please don't think it didn't exist. It did. It just had different names. The one that I remember of the top of my head was "shell shock". You didn't see a lot of men coming back from war with it, but that was because they got a short rest and were sent right back. Then when they had the psych issues that stemmed from it were shot for "cowardess" or whatever they wanted to call it. THAT was why you didn't see it that much. PTSD has a long documented history, not just in the age of "feelings" being accepted.
> 
> It is actually the attitude that military has had for so long of "suck it up and deal" that contributed so much to the delay of care and damage done further to the person and the family. Now that it is talked about it allows for treatment and hopefully will continue to allow rates of issues to decrease.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And foreign aid and domestic programs are both dwarfed by the defense budget. My mother used to say, don't piddle after pennies.



Poor Purl said:


> kittykatzmom, did you know that the US spends less than 1% of its budget on foreign aid (according to the Kaiser Family Foundation)? If we cut it out completely, it still wouldn't make much difference in what the government can spend on its own people.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I would suggest calling a Domestic Abuse Hotline. They've heard it all before and they will help.



Wally-the-bear said:


> I have read 20 pages of this post. I applaud the women that got away. I would like to know how one finds help and manages to get away.
> 
> Here are answers to the questions posed:
> 1.) Do you know any victims of domestic abuse? What have they tried to make it stop?
> ...


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

Wally-the-bear said:


> I have read 20 pages of this post. I applaud the women that got away. I would like to know how one finds help and manages to get away.


The hard answer is no one can help your friend until she decides whatever she encounters "out there" will not be more frightening than the hell in which she is living. She is obviously suffering from depression and needs medical help. Until she finds enough courage to face the unknown, the likelihood of her returning to her husband is high.


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## StaceyK (Aug 2, 2013)

mojave said:


> The hard answer is no one can help your friend until she decides whatever she encounters "out there" will not be more frightening than the hell in which she is living. She is obviously suffering from depression and needs medical help. Until she finds enough courage to face the unknown, the likelihood of her returning to her husband is high.


I was waiting for this one crucial remark to appear! The fact is, the fear of the unknown is greater than the fear of the known, which is why many battered/abused women stay in horrible relationships.

When the abused woman comes to the realization and understanding that there is NOTHING she can do to 'fix' the problem by accepting physical/emotional abuse, then she will move out of denial and get the help that she needs and deserves. Tolerating bad behavior is NOT a way to earn brownie points. The term for putting up with abuse is called 'being co-dependant'.

Everyone deserves to be loved. Abuse in any form is not done from a space of love, but from control.

If someone finds themselves in an abusive relationship, they need to find a way to get help IMMEDIATELY. The sign has been posted, and it will NOT get better. The abuser has made it clear that he is capable of being abusive. If he does it once, he will do it again. Both parties need help, but it is the abused (not the abuser) that I have concern for. It takes two to tango. Removing one's self from the situation stops the game from continuing on.

I know it can seem like a fate worse than death to get out of a bad relationship. It could be a family member, a workmate, a 'friend'. Even someone from your church family. Abuse is abuse is abuse and it is NOT ok to be expected to tolerate it. Waiting for the abuser to get help and change is not likely to happen unless they have been court ordered, and even then, most are not compliant or willing to do differently unless the consequences are painful enough.

It is important to know that there is help available for women who find themselves in abusive situations. It's not an overnight process to change from unhealthy to healthy living, but when it happens, it's a good thing!

I have some Pollyanna friends that just don't 'get it' and I have some other friends who have all 'been there'. In order for the cycle of abuse to end, awareness levels must rise. Tolerance for domestic abuse must be lowered. And action in the form of education must be taken.

I would like to mention a new law that Erin Merryn is in the process of trying to get passed in EVERY state called Erin's Law. (And after that, she wants to go international!) Its goal is to provide educational, age appropiate information for children in school from kindergarten on up to high school on how to tell someone if they are currently being or have been sexually abused. (Sadly, the statistical average of telling someone after the fact is 10 years.) This would enable help to be implemented sooner, rather than later. Many lives will be impacted and possibly saved by this law. Only 10 states have passed it so far, so when it comes to yours, (meaning everyone on this site), please give it your support. More information about Erin's story and the proposed law can be found at http://erinslaw.org/

Another amazing site for giving victims of sexual violence a voice is http://project-unbreakable.org/ Started by Grace Brown as a college photography project, it has grown by leaps and bounds.

And another important site is http://nomore.org/
This one is specifically geared to putting an end to domestic violence.

I encourage all who have been victims of domestic violence to visit these sites. According to nomore.org, that would be 1 in 3 women and 1 in 4 men.

Raising awareness and not being willing to live with the pain of domestic violence in any way, shape or form by staying silent to protect the abuser shouldn't be an option anymore.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for providing this valuable information......to a Knitting Forum......with over 100,000 members, not counting the ones who look only. Quite a service. And they sometimes ask why we don't just knit. I think I have an answer now.

And I must add my voice to the many voices who have thanked Poor Purl for opening this topic.



StaceyK said:


> I was waiting for this one crucial remark to appear! The fact is, the fear of the unknown is greater than the fear of the known, which is why many battered/abused women stay in horrible relationships.
> 
> When the abused woman comes to the realization and understanding that there is NOTHING she can do to 'fix' the problem by accepting physical/emotional abuse, then she will move out of denial and get the help that she needs and deserves. Tolerating bad behavior is NOT a way to earn brownie points. The term for putting up with abuse is called 'being co-dependant'.
> 
> ...


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## Wally-the-bear (Jan 17, 2012)

Thank you damemary,StaceyK,Mojave for your posts. You can probably understand the frustration I feel trying to help. The biggest problem is that she doesn't understand that he is abusing her mentally. She keeps coming back to the fact that he has never hit her nor has he actually told her outright that she is stupid. He just hints strongly that she is not the sharpest tool in the drawer. She opens up to me because she trusts me. I hope I have not violated that trust by posting.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Wally, this crazy thinking is next to impossible for a friend who cares to handle. If you can manage to get her to a professional who deals with this every day, I think you will have better luck. I wish you all all the best.



Wally-the-bear said:


> Thank you damemary,StaceyK,Mojave for your posts. You can probably understand the frustration I feel trying to help. The biggest problem is that she doesn't understand that he is abusing her mentally. She keeps coming back to the fact that he has never hit her nor has he actually told her outright that she is stupid. He just hints strongly that she is not the sharpest tool in the drawer. She opens up to me because she trusts me. I hope I have not violated that trust by posting.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

Alpaca Farmer said:


> I am a past victim of domestic violence. Out of it for more than 25 years, but still carry some of the baggage. So do my children, although they do not think they were affected. Help anyone you know who is in the situation. I was so alone and ashamed and didn't know where to go for help. Alcohol was the contributing factor to my ex-husband's violent temper.


Sound similiar to my case.

I was married at 16 to my childhood sweetheart that I adored and he also adored me. We were madly in love. This was back in 1952 when "living together" was considered shameful and birth control methods were never discussed - and none were reliable. There was no mention or even thought given to Birth Control pills. Message was very clear - so sex until you were married!!!! This was the driving force why we eloped and kept it secret from my parents for 3 months - by the time I knew I was 2 months pregnant!!!!!!!

To make a long story short, he was a great provider but lousy father. He was 20 when we married, a very quiet man but as the 4 children were born, he started drinking more and more and became very controling and physically abusive. He was a very cold and unemotional man (except with me). Looking back at this time, I realize now that he just couldn't handle the responsibility of 4 little ones which I raised on my own as he was never home - during the day he worked; at night he was out with his buddies!!!!

There were NO domestic violence laws back in the 50s or even 60s - once you got married, your husband supported and controlled you!!!!! After 11 years of marriage, a beautiful home, the death of my 4 year old that he never comforted me or supported my grief, and a night where he beat me so badly that I thought I would die - I TOOK MY CHILDREN AND WALKED OUT AND NEVER LOOKED BACK!!!!! They were 10, 8 and 3 years old.

Thankfully, my Mom and Dad gave me a place to live in their home and I found a job and a year later I went to college during the day and worked at night in a factory to get my degree and from that day on, ! went from factory work to a professional position where we all lived very comfortably - without ever going on any Welfare handouts for food, housing or medical coverage.

My two sons knew why I left and since they were so close to me, and still are, they saw the consequences of what happens when a man does not treat his wife with love and respect. They both ended up not having one ounce of love for their "father" and both have always treated all the women in their lives by being gentlemen. My oldest son has been married for 38 years and my youngest son went thru a divorce because his wife of 9 years was cheating on him with her boss. They never had any children as she didn't want them. My daughter is happily married 40 years with 1 son. My youngest daughter is a Single Mom of 4 and divorced over 20 years and intends on staying that way.

I have taught my two daughters, and all my grandchildren, NEVER - NEVER allow anyone to hit you. If they hit you once, they will hit you again!!!!! Luckily, NONE of my children were negatively affected by Domestic Abuse but it was because of their closeness to me. Then, when I became a Single Parent, they also saw me as a "strong" woman who protected them from any beatings their father tried to give them.

"He" died at the age of 62 by commiting suicide (hung himself) and never got over the hurt he went thru the day I walked out. The alcoholic years finally took their toil as part of his brain was taken out due to a stroke and he was living in an Assistant Living Home and had lost all his family and relatives that never came to visit him.

With today's laws protecting women from Domestic Violence, my advice it that these laws were finally passed becuase many women had to die before men in the legal field, and law enforcement, finally realized something had to be done to stop it. The law WILL protect you now - back in my days, they didn't.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

kathycam said:


> Great topic for us-- In the US, the solution seems to be a restraining order, to keep the perpetrator away from the victim. This is a court ordered piece of paper. If he does not comply, the police are supposed to enforce it. I have never heard of a perpetrator complying with this court order, or the police enforcing one for that matter. ..............................
> .................
> . The judges and lawyers can keep their address secret, but the women cannot. If a woman takes her children and tries to hide, she is charged with parental abduction and the children are given to the abuser, while she does time in jail. This so called justice system is insane in the US. I hope to see here, that other countries are more evolved.


I can only speak how my City in New York State handles Domestic Abuse.

Whenever a person (male or female)calls Law Enforcement due to Domestic Violence, the abuser is arrested on the spot, and sent to jail (if unable to post bail) and the victim is awarded a Restraining Order of Protection. IF this Order is violated, the abuser is arrested again on a FELONY charge and sentenced to the County Jail for 1 year. At that time, the victim is given a Stay Away Order of Protection (no phone calls - no contact any place). If this gets violated, the abuser is then sentenced to a State Prison for at least 3 - 5 years.

Anyone that has been "stalked" either my a former love or even a stranger and has repeatedly gone to Court and the abuser continues to find her and abuse her, Social Security will allow the victim to obtain a NEW SS number so she can move and hide where she is.

Based on many lawsuits in the past from victims that were killed or severely beaten, Law Enforcement and the Courts do NOT take Domestic Violence lightly anymore.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

mojave said:


> If you are a woman (or man) contemplating leaving an abusive relationship, please try to put copies of legal documents into that suggested get-away suitcase. These documents would be a marriage license, birth certificates, loan origination documents proving ownership of cars, houses, land, commercial buildings, account numbers for checking and savings accounts, medical and dental records, copies of prescriptions for important medications, social security cards, and passports.
> 
> The original documents are best but an abuser may guard the originals and your life is more valuable than those pieces of paper. Documents missing from a file or safe box could alert an abuser to your plans.
> 
> ...


========
I agree -- *don't go back!*


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

It takes a great deal of courage for the women who have shared their stories of abuse with us. Thank you ladies and may you have peace in your lives from this moment forward. I admire all of you.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> ========
> I agree -- *don't go back!*


Excellent advice!!!!

I might add - Remember, anyone can say the words you want to hear - "I'm sorry, I love you, I will never do that again" ETC; which sound nice BUT are NOT truthful.

Always judge a person by his ACTIONS - NEVER HIS WORDS!!!!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wally-the-bear said:


> Thank you damemary,StaceyK,Mojave for your posts. You can probably understand the frustration I feel trying to help. The biggest problem is that she doesn't understand that he is abusing her mentally. She keeps coming back to the fact that he has never hit her nor has he actually told her outright that she is stupid. He just hints strongly that she is not the sharpest tool in the drawer. She opens up to me because she trusts me. I hope I have not violated that trust by posting.


If your friend is miserable in her marriage and her husband is not, that's a good sign that she's been psychologically abused by someone who wants her feeling stupid, guilty, and alone.

One difficulty is that she's in another country, apparently without friends or family. In some countries, she would be able to seek help; in others not. If she has really managed to save enough money that her husband would like to get hold of it, she should probably come back to the US, to a place where she has friends like you. The letter portrays her as having no friends (another sign of abuse) and as having a bad relationship with her only child. I realize her child is 3 days away, but a phone call might heal whatever rift there is. Does she have access to a phone, or has "DH" locked her out?

Wally, it's so good of you to want to help, but as others have said, she really needs to make her own decision to leave. It's not going to get any better with him.

You can't have violated her trust; not only have you kept her anonymous, but we don't even know what continent she's on. It may help her to know there are some women here interested in her welfare.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wally-the-bear said:


> I have read 20 pages of this post. I applaud the women that got away. I would like to know how one finds help and manages to get away.


Wally, there are a few messages by people who have worked with abused women and have advice about what to do and how to protect yourself even before you've made the decision to leave. Search for messages by Mojave, Kathycam, I know there are others and I'll look for them later, but Mojave gives a checklist of things to do. The women here are not only very strong but also very wise.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You are a strong woman with self esteem who takes her role of mother seriously. Your family planted the seeds and gave you the support to grow. Thanks for inspiring us all.

I hope your story touched someone who needs to hear it today.



Joan Thelma said:


> Sound similiar to my case.
> 
> I was married at 16 to my childhood sweetheart that I adored and he also adored me. We were madly in love. This was back in 1952 when "living together" was considered shameful and birth control methods were never discussed - and none were reliable. There was no mention or even thought given to Birth Control pills. Message was very clear - so sex until you were married!!!! This was the driving force why we eloped and kept it secret from my parents for 3 months - by the time I knew I was 2 months pregnant!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Bravo to the state of New York and its inhabitants.



Joan Thelma said:


> I can only speak how my City in New York State handles Domestic Abuse.
> 
> Whenever a person (male or female)calls Law Enforcement due to Domestic Violence, the abuser is arrested on the spot, and sent to jail (if unable to post bail) and the victim is awarded a Restraining Order of Protection. IF this Order is violated, the abuser is arrested again on a FELONY charge and sentenced to the County Jail for 1 year. At that time, the victim is given a Stay Away Order of Protection (no phone calls - no contact any place). If this gets violated, the abuser is then sentenced to a State Prison for at least 3 - 5 years.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Even if you can't understand this right now, repeat it to yourself and do it. You will come to understand and you will be safer.



Designer1234 said:


> ========
> I agree -- *don't go back!*


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> It takes a great deal of courage for the women who have shared their stories of abuse with us. Thank you ladies and may you have peace in your lives from this moment forward. I admire all of you.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I agree wholeheartedly.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Bravo to the state of New York and its inhabitants.


I don't know whether the same thing is done throughout the state, or just in the city where the poster live.

I will accept your Bravo in any case.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I have to admit that this thread is my favorite. Very rewarding to read and contribute to.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Wally-the-bear said:


> I have read 20 pages of this post. I applaud the women that got away. I would like to know how one finds help and manages to get away.
> 
> Here are answers to the questions posed:
> 1.) Do you know any victims of domestic abuse? What have they tried to make it stop?
> ...


A lot of times the suicide lines can give you information on services and other places to help. They are not just for talking any more. They could probably connect her with a center for abused women who could help.


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## Viddie (May 20, 2011)

kittykatzmom said:


> Don't you think the men who served in WWII don't have some awful memories to deal with? I had an uncle who was on Normandy beach the day of the invasion. He said you just wished to hell you would get shot and get it over with. The difference is people didn't discuss the feelings afterwards. They came home, got a job and went on with life. My dad couldn't get home in time for his only son's funeral and I still have the telegram that was sent. I'm sure many families had to deal with the same type of situation, but they just went on with life and didn't have any grief counselor or anyone other than family and friends to lean on. They had to be tougher. Yes all of this caused my family some problems and has caused me a lifetime of problems, but I didn't do drugs, get drunk or anything like that - just have to chalk it up and go on with life.


 :thumbup:


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Thank you for sharing this information. I didn't know there was anywhere in this country with such enlightened laws. My city forces women to reveal their whereabouts on every form they fill out. Would it be possible for you to share your city so that anyone here, needing to get away securely could do so?


Joan Thelma said:


> I can only speak how my City in New York State handles Domestic Abuse.
> 
> Whenever a person (male or female)calls Law Enforcement due to Domestic Violence, the abuser is arrested on the spot, and sent to jail (if unable to post bail) and the victim is awarded a Restraining Order of Protection. IF this Order is violated, the abuser is arrested again on a FELONY charge and sentenced to the County Jail for 1 year. At that time, the victim is given a Stay Away Order of Protection (no phone calls - no contact any place). If this gets violated, the abuser is then sentenced to a State Prison for at least 3 - 5 years.
> 
> ...


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> It takes a great deal of courage for the women who have shared their stories of abuse with us. Thank you ladies and may you have peace in your lives from this moment forward. I admire all of you.


Ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> But it's true. If an abuser finds someone who will shrink back rather than shout bloody murder, he's found a possible victim.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

kathycam said:


> Thank you for sharing this information. I didn't know there was anywhere in this country with such enlightened laws. My city forces women to reveal their whereabouts on every form they fill out. Would it be possible for you to share your city so that anyone here, needing to get away securely could do so?


Thanks to Joan Thelma, I Googled domestic violence in New York and discovered the New York State Office for the Prevention of Domestic Violence, http://www.opdv.ny.gov. Tons of information there, including summaries of the state's DV laws, advice on where to get help, and statistics.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> Yet another reason to have a pet:
> 
> http://local12.com/news/features/around-the-web/stories/story-of-dog-warning-parents-of-abusive-babysitter-going-viral-again-wkrc.shtml#.Ux9xAPldXCd
> 
> It's from last September, but 'hot' again.


I ALWAYS trust my dogs' opinions. For one example...When I met my DH I did not know he disliked cats and dogs because my dogs loved him. If they didn't, I would not have continued seeing him. I would never have guessed, but one of his kids informed me how they were never allowed a pet growing up because of this. I always knew he was a super good guy because everywhere we encountered someone's pet, they would always go to him first, rather than me, the biggest dog lover in the world.. After some time, I learned that he had been bitten and had bad experiences with dogs and cats as a child, and was actually afraid of them. Over the years, he got used to my dogs and lost his fear. We actually adopted 2 rescues from our local Humane Society shelter in the last 2 years and he ended up so bonded to them, especially Blondie, that he hardly made a move without her. He's been gone 5 months now, and she still mourns terribly. On the other hand, my dogs can't stand his SIL who has 5 dogs of his own, but they won't go near him. Why? He is an abuser and has been to jail 3 times, twice for beating his wife and once for beating his son. I don't know how they know, but they seem to have an extra sense that human women don't. Maybe, all women should use a friendly dog to check out their dates! If a normally friendly dog backs off--RUN!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> I have to admit that this thread is my favorite. Very rewarding to read and contribute to.


I am glad this thread is a huge success but it is wrenching to read the histories of the women.

What about sibling abuse? I was sexually, physically and emotionally abused by my older brother for over 2 decades. Over the years our relationship straightened out very well but I never confronted him about it until about 2 years ago. When I finally did , he was ashamed and horrified by my memories, but he did apologize and admit that I was victimized. Yet he was the biggest victim of my mother's emotional imbalance and the insults and laughing indifference of my father. He resumed therapy after I spoke to him, I guess to regain his equilibrium. Am I the only one here with sibling abuse?


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

It has to be the decision of the one being abused. Some people are too afraid because of financial and housing issues. In NC, the Courts can order the abuser to go to an Anger Management Class There is someone from the Courts to see who comes. If they don't go (or drop out), they will go to jail. :thumbup:


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## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

There's a woman in my apartment block who swears and yells, and I heard from someone else, also hits her husband. When neighbours complained to him that they were being disturbed, he acted all "dear-oh-dear I didn't realise" about it.

The behaviour continues. I'm now in a different block, so don't hear it. My take on it is that they are selfish co-dependent sickoes. If I were still hearing them I would call the cops. I feel the same way about women who are beaten and let their kids be beaten, too.

When my ex-husband went too far, I lost my temper and grabbed him around the throat and repeatedly smashed his head into the wall, then "came to" from this mental blank-out, saw what I was doing, stopped, because I think spouses should protect each other, and lo-and-behold; he never touched me again - oops; except once, when I then bashed him over the head with a floor-mop. Tsk-tsk; not very classy, but it sent him a message, apparently. I told his sister about it, and she was ecstatic that I'd retaliated, as he had beaten them all.

I was much smaller than he, but had had an androgynous upbringing. When there's no penalty for beating/bullying, and no conscience, then how surprising (not) when there is a penalty, i.e he gets hurt, that suddenly the bully has a change of heart. Sneer.

Well; it worked, didn't it. I believe in being kind to husbands but it's telling that this is a happy memory for me.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Alpaca: Give yourself a 'pat on the back.' You are truly a remark-able person. I'm proud of you. Hugs!


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

I


kathycam said:


> Thank you for sharing this information. I didn't know there was anywhere in this country with such enlightened laws. My city forces women to reveal their whereabouts on every form they fill out. Would it be possible for you to share your city so that anyone here, needing to get away securely could do so?


I live in Utica, New York BUT I also know that Albany, Syracuse and other cities do the same when it comes to domestic violence. If they don't, the City or Town can be held liable in a court of law.

These laws are New York State laws - NOT city laws or ordinances.

Remember - if your City does NOT inforce domestic violence laws, check with your Attorney General Office and ask if your State have laws against Domestic Violence. If not, ask Why Not?

If the do and not inforcing them, tell the Attorney General's Office and file a complaint or go and see a lawyer and file a Civic Suit against the police Dept. for failure to insure the victim's safety!!!

Good Luck - let the rest of us know how you made out.


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## chooksnpinkroses (Aug 23, 2012)

kathycam said:


> As I stated in an earlier post, most victims will go back to their abuser, 2-3 times.....


I almost went back to my ex.... We had been separated about 9 months and I was missing the 'good times' in our marriage, although in reality there were very few. He had asked me to go back to him and I agreed to go down and spend a weekend with him to see if I really did want to go back.... As soon as I stepped off the plane and saw him in the flesh, I knew I could not go back, but I was stuck for the weekend.... After I went back home I told him I wasn't going back to him....Thankfully I didn't get pregnant again that weekend, (mum had warned me about possibly ending up on my own with 2 children instead of one)....That was 35 years ago.

Married #2 18 years ago, he is all the things and more that #1 wasn't.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm sorry for your loss. Give the pets a hug from me.



kathycam said:


> I ALWAYS trust my dogs' opinions. For one example...When I met my DH I did not know he disliked cats and dogs because my dogs loved him. If they didn't, I would not have continued seeing him. I would never have guessed, but one of his kids informed me how they were never allowed a pet growing up because of this. I always knew he was a super good guy because everywhere we encountered someone's pet, they would always go to him first, rather than me, the biggest dog lover in the world.. After some time, I learned that he had been bitten and had bad experiences with dogs and cats as a child, and was actually afraid of them. Over the years, he got used to my dogs and lost his fear. We actually adopted 2 rescues from our local Humane Society shelter in the last 2 years and he ended up so bonded to them, especially Blondie, that he hardly made a move without her. He's been gone 5 months now, and she still mourns terribly. On the other hand, my dogs can't stand his SIL who has 5 dogs of his own, but they won't go near him. Why? He is an abuser and has been to jail 3 times, twice for beating his wife and once for beating his son. I don't know how they know, but they seem to have an extra sense that human women don't. Maybe, all women should use a friendly dog to check out their dates! If a normally friendly dog backs off--RUN!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I understand.



omnivore2 said:


> There's a woman in my apartment block who swears and yells, and I heard from someone else, also hits her husband. When neighbours complained to him that they were being disturbed, he acted all "dear-oh-dear I didn't realise" about it.
> 
> The behaviour continues. I'm now in a different block, so don't hear it. My take on it is that they are selfish co-dependent sickoes. If I were still hearing them I would call the cops. I feel the same way about women who are beaten and let their kids be beaten, too.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

More vital information. Eureka!



Joan Thelma said:


> I I live in Utica, New York BUT I also know that Albany, Syracuse and other cities do the same when it comes to domestic violence. If they don't, the City or Town can be held liable in a court of law.
> 
> These laws are New York State laws - NOT city laws or ordinances.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank heavens you weren't maimed or killed during your test weekend. So glad you've found happiness since.



Annelisse said:


> I almost went back to my ex.... We had been separated about 9 months and I was missing the 'good times' in our marriage, although there were very few. He had asked me to go back to him and I agreed to go down and spend a weekend with him to see if I really did want to go back.... As soon as I stepped off the plane and saw him in the flesh, I knew I could not go back, but I was stuck for the weekend.... After I went back home I told him I wasn't going back to him....Thankfully I didn't get pregnant again that weekend, (mum had warned me about possibly ending up on my own with 2 children instead of one)....That was 35 years ago.
> 
> Married #2 18 years ago, he is all the things and more that #1 wasn't.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

damemary said:


> Thank heavens you weren't maimed or killed during your test weekend. So glad you've found happiness since.


Don't worry....slight chance of that. He was baiting her with the "honeymoon" tactic they all use, to lure their victims back.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

kathycam said:


> Don't worry....slight chance of that. He was baiting her with the "honeymoon" tactic they all use, to lure their victims back.


Are they on their best behavior during that honeymoon? Do the men actually believe the promises they make, or are they just making them to try get the woman back?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Annelisse said:


> I almost went back to my ex.... We had been separated about 9 months and I was missing the 'good times' in our marriage, although there were very few. He had asked me to go back to him and I agreed to go down and spend a weekend with him to see if I really did want to go back.... As soon as I stepped off the plane and saw him in the flesh, I knew I could not go back, but I was stuck for the weekend.... After I went back home I told him I wasn't going back to him....Thankfully I didn't get pregnant again that weekend, (mum had warned me about possibly ending up on my own with 2 children instead of one)....That was 35 years ago.
> 
> Married #2 18 years ago, he is all the things and more that #1 wasn't.


Annelisse, I'm glad you decided to join us. Your story is one of the successes, thank goodness. I'm so happy your second marriage has been a good one.

How is your mother dealing with the loss of her cat?


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> It takes a great deal of courage for the women who have shared their stories of abuse with us. Thank you ladies and may you have peace in your lives from this moment forward. I admire all of you.


I too, want to thank all the women who were BRAVE enough to relive the memories of what must have been the worst times of their lives. Thank you all, for your BRAVE words.

This is a song my special ed teacher DIL plays for her autistic students, every day. She hopes to make them strong enough to the endure the callous treatment from others, that they will experience their whole lives, with no escape.


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## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

When people return to the bad relationship it can be due to partial reinforcement; i.e there are SOME rewards or used to be some, in the relationship.

Once we are partially-reinforced, it's the hardest thing to break away from.


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## chooksnpinkroses (Aug 23, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Annelisse, I'm glad you decided to join us. Your story is one of the successes, thank goodness. I'm so happy your second marriage has been a good one.
> 
> How is your mother dealing with the loss of her cat?


I now know God was looking after me, although I didn't at the time.

Mum is still very sad about her lovely little companion. But she's pretty tough, she wants to get another cat in the spring time. When I collected the body of Cola from the pound, I discovered that she had been hit and killed in her own quiet cul de sac of only 10 houses. Somehow that was more up-setting than if she'd been hit on one of the nearby busy roads. 
Our cat, Bella, is having kittens soon, mum wants to come and see them as soon as they are born....
My sweet DH buried Cola for mum and made a lovely 'grave' with a carved heart that he made and some Thyme to grow on it, (nothing else flowering in mum's garden at this time of year,[Autumn])... He really is a very sweet man!!!


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

omnivore2 said:


> When people return to the bad relationship it can be due to partial reinforcement; i.e there are SOME rewards or used to be some, in the relationship.
> 
> Once we are partially-reinforced, it's the hardest thing to break away from.


Unable to locate the journal article, and the recollection is incomplete: A person subjected to ongoing abuse may form memory pathways in the brain which turn survival behaviors into automatic habits. The reward systems of the brain may be tied to execution of the habit(s).

My explanation: A person learning to play a violin will hold the violin and bow in awkward positions for several weeks; after a few months of practice, violin and bow will smoothly move into proper playing position. 
An example: An abuse receiver may learn submissive posture. When that posture deflects abuse, a mental reward pathway may develop and lead to automatic behavior. Standing straight would counter the reward pathway and may cause a stress hormone response.


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## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

Joan Thelma said:


> I can only speak how my City in New York State handles Domestic Abuse.


Sorry, shortened your post for brevity. 
I think it's wonderful that NY does that. Here in Ohio, we had a Stalking Protection Order on my mom's then husband. He saw me driving one day, turned around and followed me for several miles and even tried to run me off the road a few times. I drove straight to the sheriff's office, and they told me that there was nothing they could do, since I didn't have any witnesses.


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## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

A song for all who've survived DV, or any abuse: With a Broken Wing, by Martina McBride. Another is Independence Day, also by her. She has several actually.
One on child abuse, that breaks my heart every time I hear it, is Alyssa Lies by Jason Michael Carroll.


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## GinB (Sep 2, 2012)

Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> A song for all who've survived DV, or any abuse: With a Broken Wing, by Martina McBride. Another is Independence Day, also by her. She has several actually.
> One on child abuse, that breaks my heart every time I hear it, is Alyssa Lies by Jason Michael Carroll.


Here's a story for you. When I fled my ex, I moped around all the time (crying). Finally, my daughter (with whom I was staying with) told me I needed to go out and do something "fun". She and her SO took me to karaoke. I had sung on stage in school way back when, but had never done karaoke before. It took a couple of beers, but I got up and sang my first karaoke song, which was...Broken Wing by Martina McBride.

What a shock awaited me back at our table. My daughter was in tears. When I asked her why, she said she was that moved by my rendition. (I should say here that I can carry a tune. I was a vocal music major back in college, though it had been quite some time since I got the "pipes" warmed up.) I don't do karaoke often, but when I do, that is one I sing sometimes, though not out of pain anymore.


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## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

GinB said:


> Here's a story for you. When I fled my ex, I moped around all the time (crying). Finally, my daughter (with whom I was staying with) told me I needed to go out and do something "fun". She and her SO took me to karaoke. I had sung on stage in school way back when, but had never done karaoke before. It took a couple of beers, but I got up and sang my first karaoke song, which was...Broken Wing by Martina McBride.
> 
> What a shock awaited me back at our table. My daughter was in tears. When I asked her why, she said she was that moved by my rendition. (I should say here that I can carry a tune. I was a vocal music major back in college, though it had been quite some time since I got the "pipes" warmed up.) I don't do karaoke often, but when I do, that is one I sing sometimes, though not out of pain anymore.


I think it's wonderful! You should make a video and post it of your singing. My daughter is in the choir at school, one of her classmates' mom can really belt it out. At the talent show this year, she and her daughter sang 'Love's the Only House', another powerful Martina song.


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## CaroleJS (Jun 2, 2011)

I have been a victim of domestic violence, also. The sad reality I had to deal with, was when speaking with my family, they thought I was exaggerating my situation. There was no one to encourage me to get out of it. The violence for me happened AFTER I divorced my first husband. He never hit me when we were married. There was control of my where about, and verbal and mental abuse. He did a few times threaten to hit me. I looked him straight in the eye and told him if he ever hit me, he would never see me or our children again. After the divorce, he called and threatened to kill himself on my front door step. He instead drove up a parkway behind my house, pulled the phone line out of the house and started shooting my van and then proceeded to break windows to my house. He then broke the upper half of the glass out of the patio door and walked into my house. I was on the phone with 911 and gave my name, number and address when he pulled the phone line from the house. I suffered a back injury due to the events that happened in the house. My daughter who was 9 yrs old was in the house with me. She has post traumatic syndrome. He had a rifle, pistol and a derringer that he used to shoot various things in my house. The S.W.A.T team had to talk him down to let me out of the house, and then the house was tear gassed to get him out. After he was arrested and in prison, he and his mother repeatedly caused me to have to use a lawyer to combat their false accusations about me. It took almost a year before my lawyer was able to get this stopped. I was lucky to have gotten a job that I was able to afford to pay the lawyer. One day when I went in to pay my bill, he saw me there. He took me into a conference room and explained to me why he was STRONGLY recommending I get a shot gun to protect myself in my home. My ex was bragging in prison that he was going to have me and my lawyer killed. I learned a couple years later from my oldest son, that his dad did have someone watching me. Before he got out of prison, I did get a pistol and a conceal carry permit. I had a friend arrange for me to have a private training session. My kids told their dad I had these. He has never been to my home. I also stayed diligent with the prison system of standing firm about not tolerating his threats through his letters. I reported each and everyone and followed up with sending the prison counselor copy of each letter with the threat high lighted. He served 4 yrs to the day. The prison system TRIED to do an early release with him even though he was NOT eligible for early release. I had the support of the local police and the DA office and Victim Services staff to help make calls to stop his early release. I also had a restraining order against him for 12 years. Each year the court staff and the Judge commended me for renewing each year. 

Sad to say, in my town there was a situation where a woman had gone to court because of her ex. He failed to show up in court. After she went home, he was in her house with her teenage kids. He shot and killed her.


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## GinB (Sep 2, 2012)

Carole, send you a PM.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> Sorry, shortened your post for brevity.
> I think it's wonderful that NY does that. Here in Ohio, we had a Stalking Protection Order on my mom's then husband. He saw me driving one day, turned around and followed me for several miles and even tried to run me off the road a few times. I drove straight to the sheriff's office, and they told me that there was nothing they could do, since I didn't have any witnesses.


It's the same here in Michigan. They WILL look for witnesses when they have a murdered dead body though.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

CaroleJS said:


> I have been a victim of domestic violence, also. The sad reality I had to deal with, was when speaking with my family, they thought I was exaggerating my situation. There was no one to encourage me to get out of it. The violence for me happened AFTER I divorced my first husband. He never hit me when we were married. There was control of my where about, and verbal and mental abuse. He did a few times threaten to hit me. I looked him straight in the eye and told him if he ever hit me, he would never see me or our children again. After the divorce, he called and threatened to kill himself on my front door step. He instead drove up a parkway behind my house, pulled the phone line out of the house and started shooting my van and then proceeded to break windows to my house. He then broke the upper half of the glass out of the patio door and walked into my house. I was on the phone with 911 and gave my name, number and address when he pulled the phone line from the house. I suffered a back injury due to the events that happened in the house. My daughter who was 9 yrs old was in the house with me. She has post traumatic syndrome. He had a rifle, pistol and a derringer that he used to shoot various things in my house. The S.W.A.T team had to talk him down to let me out of the house, and then the house was tear gassed to get him out. After he was arrested and in prison, he and his mother repeatedly caused me to have to use a lawyer to combat their false accusations about me. It took almost a year before my lawyer was able to get this stopped. I was lucky to have gotten a job that I was able to afford to pay the lawyer. One day when I went in to pay my bill, he saw me there. He took me into a conference room and explained to me why he was STRONGLY recommending I get a shot gun to protect myself in my home. My ex was bragging in prison that he was going to have me and my lawyer killed. I learned a couple years later from my oldest son, that his dad did have someone watching me. Before he got out of prison, I did get a pistol and a conceal carry permit. I had a friend arrange for me to have a private training session. My kids told their dad I had these. He has never been to my home. I also stayed diligent with the prison system of standing firm about not tolerating his threats through his letters. I reported each and everyone and followed up with sending the prison counselor copy of each letter with the threat high lighted. He served 4 yrs to the day. The prison system TRIED to do an early release with him even though he was NOT eligible for early release. I had the support of the local police and the DA office and Victim Services staff to help make calls to stop his early release. I also had a restraining order against him for 12 years. Each year the court staff and the Judge commended me for renewing each year.
> 
> Sad to say, in my town there was a situation where a woman had gone to court because of her ex. He failed to show up in court. After she went home, he was in her house with her teenage kids. He shot and killed her.


Does it seem unjust to anyone else, that a woman has to have the money for an attorney to get the justice system to protect her? Law enforcement is paid for with our tax dollars, and yet it is very difficult to get them to do the job intended. I am so glad that you had the resources to get a good attorney. Your attorney was right about the shotgun. It IS the best home protection--you don't have to be a very good shot. I am so sorry for all you and your family have been through. There is a medication that works well for a lot of people, to dispel post traumatic stress syndrome (off label use). It could be helpful for your daughter. Anyone interested in it can PM me any time. Many blessings to you and your family, Carole, and thank you for sharing your story.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Are they on their best behavior during that honeymoon? Do the men actually believe the promises they make, or are they just making them to try get the woman back?


Oh, yes! They revert to the Dr. Jekyll she fell in love with, promise he has changed forever and can't live without her. It's known as the "honeymoon phase" to get her back. Of course, it never lasts long.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> Sorry, shortened your post for brevity.
> I think it's wonderful that NY does that. Here in Ohio, we had a Stalking Protection Order on my mom's then husband. He saw me driving one day, turned around and followed me for several miles and even tried to run me off the road a few times. I drove straight to the sheriff's office, and they told me that there was nothing they could do, since I didn't have any witnesses.


That is terrible!!!!! He could have killed you or made you have an accident where you could have been injured.

If this happened to me, I would have insisted a Police Report was made - this would have been "documentation" to prove what a dangerous person he was in case he continued following you.

I've always told everyone I could, dont ever forget laws are made and enforced by MEN!!!!!!


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

kathycam said:


> Does it seem unjust to anyone else, that a woman has to have the money for an attorney to get the justice system to protect her? Law enforcement is paid for with our tax dollars, and yet it is very difficult to get them to do the job intended. I am so glad that you had the resources to get a good attorney. Your attorney was right about the shotgun. It IS the best home protection--you don't have to be a very good shot. I am so sorry for all you and your family have been through. There is a medication that works well for a lot of people, to dispel post traumatic stress syndrome (off label use). It could be helpful for your daughter. Anyone interested in it can PM me any time. Many blessings to you and your family, Carole, and thank you for sharing your story.


Not in New York State!!!!!!

My GD was living with me when she was 16 years old and had this boyfriend "Mitch" - a "first love" situation of about 3 months. I saw signs where he was trying to control her, and she listen to me when I told her what he was trying to do. She broke up with him and had went to his house to bring back the gift he had given to her for Christmas. His father was there to supervise and I dropped her off but told her I would be back in 15 minutes after I picked up a prescription at the local drug store.

When I returned, I saw my GD run out of the house saying "You are going to jail" and she was calling 911 - (he had slapped her across the face) Within seconds, 2 Police Cars showed up, a female Policewoman arrested him and took him away. He was charged with Harrassment (a violation charge).

She had to go to Court to testify against him and a Policewoman who was in charge of Domestic Violence helped her when she had to testify against him (she was right next to my GD holding her hand for emotional support). The Judge fined him $250 (which he didn't have), sent him back to the County Jail until someone could pay the fine and gave my GD an Order of Protection against him.

While he was waiting for his brother to pay the fine and pick him up at the County Jail, he was making phone calls to my GD threatening her and saying he was really going to beat her the next time. With my encourgement, I told her to call the Police and report the violation of the Order of Protection which she did.

Now, this idiot was facing a Felony charge for the violation!!!! Back to Court again where he was sentenced to 1 year in jail and 3 years of Probation with supervision after he got out.

He finally learned that my GD meant business and stayed away and has never bothered her since (she is now 23 and engaged to a wonderful, mature and loving man).

All of this cost her NOTHING!!!!! She also remembered the advice I had previously told her when she was about 12 years old ("If they hit you once, they will hit you again")

Any State that enforces and has Domestic Violence laws SHOULD represent you at NO CHARGE as you are the victim.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

Here is a TRUE story of a Domestic Violence case that happened in my neighborhood (upper middle class area with no crime).

The husband was a Detective in our local Police Force and his wife was his high school sweetheart. Both were in their upper 30s and had been married for about 16 years with 4 children ranging from 14 down to 8 years old.

They were going thru a Divorce initiated by the wife due to his history of cheating on her, emotional abuse to her and all the children, and he was currently living with another female - a policewoman. It was a very nasty divorce as the husband was losing control over his wife, and she also had recently met a man she was dating.

The day they both appeared in Court to establish the amount of Child Support HE would have to pay, he found out that a very large percentage of his pay would be designated for him to pay Child Support, and the house they just had built would be given to the wife and the children to live in. He was furious - despite the fact that there was an Order of Protection against him.

When the wife came home after the Court proceeding, HE broke into the house, and stabbed her to death (19 knife wounds in her body) and then stabbed himself to death!!!!!

While he was dying, his 8 year old son was dropped off at their home by the School Bus and when he went into the house, he saw his Mom all bloody and dead and his father also bloody and dying. He screamed and went to a neighbor who called 911. Both State Police and local Police plus an ambulance arrived within seconds - He gave a death bed confession that he was the one that killed his wife and himself just before he died.

The wife's sister hired a lawyer and brought a 10 Million Dollar lawsuit against the Police Dept and the Police Chief (personal friend of the husband)for failure to respond to all her phone calls to the Chief of her husband's violent temper. This lawsuit was recently settled out of Court for 2 Million Dollars (being paid by the taxpapers)which will be divided between the 4 children currently being raised by the wife's sister.

This was a sensational case that made the headlines because the law could NOT stop from happening. Using hindsight, she should have left him a long, long time ago -BUT- she stayed because of the children and the comfortable lifestyle she was living (which cost her her life).


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

CaroleJS said:


> I have been a victim of domestic violence, also. The sad reality I had to deal with, was when speaking with my family, they thought I was exaggerating my situation. There was no one to encourage me to get out of it. The violence for me happened AFTER I divorced my first husband. He never hit me when we were married. There was control of my where about, and verbal and mental abuse. He did a few times threaten to hit me. I looked him straight in the eye and told him if he ever hit me, he would never see me or our children again. After the divorce, he called and threatened to kill himself on my front door step. He instead drove up a parkway behind my house, pulled the phone line out of the house and started shooting my van and then proceeded to break windows to my house. He then broke the upper half of the glass out of the patio door and walked into my house. I was on the phone with 911 and gave my name, number and address when he pulled the phone line from the house. I suffered a back injury due to the events that happened in the house. My daughter who was 9 yrs old was in the house with me. She has post traumatic syndrome. He had a rifle, pistol and a derringer that he used to shoot various things in my house. The S.W.A.T team had to talk him down to let me out of the house, and then the house was tear gassed to get him out. After he was arrested and in prison, he and his mother repeatedly caused me to have to use a lawyer to combat their false accusations about me. It took almost a year before my lawyer was able to get this stopped. I was lucky to have gotten a job that I was able to afford to pay the lawyer. One day when I went in to pay my bill, he saw me there. He took me into a conference room and explained to me why he was STRONGLY recommending I get a shot gun to protect myself in my home. My ex was bragging in prison that he was going to have me and my lawyer killed. I learned a couple years later from my oldest son, that his dad did have someone watching me. Before he got out of prison, I did get a pistol and a conceal carry permit. I had a friend arrange for me to have a private training session. My kids told their dad I had these. He has never been to my home. I also stayed diligent with the prison system of standing firm about not tolerating his threats through his letters. I reported each and everyone and followed up with sending the prison counselor copy of each letter with the threat high lighted. He served 4 yrs to the day. The prison system TRIED to do an early release with him even though he was NOT eligible for early release. I had the support of the local police and the DA office and Victim Services staff to help make calls to stop his early release. I also had a restraining order against him for 12 years. Each year the court staff and the Judge commended me for renewing each year.
> 
> Sad to say, in my town there was a situation where a woman had gone to court because of her ex. He failed to show up in court. After she went home, he was in her house with her teenage kids. He shot and killed her.


While I commiserate with your marital troubles, it seems that guns may only exacerbate an already fused situation.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> While I commiserate with your marital troubles, it seems that guns may only exacerbate an already fused situation.


I strongly disagree!!!!!

Remember - when you are in a situation where your life is at risk, the sight of a woman holding a loaded shotgun is the best way to protect yourself - until the Police finally arrive.

Until you have ever been in a life/death situation, you should never sit in judgment of one who has.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

kathycam said:


> Does it seem unjust to anyone else, that a woman has to have the money for an attorney to get the justice system to protect her? Law enforcement is paid for with our tax dollars, and yet it is very difficult to get them to do the job intended. I am so glad that you had the resources to get a good attorney. Your attorney was right about the shotgun. It IS the best home protection--you don't have to be a very good shot. I am so sorry for all you and your family have been through. There is a medication that works well for a lot of people, to dispel post traumatic stress syndrome (off label use). It could be helpful for your daughter. Anyone interested in it can PM me any time. Many blessings to you and your family, Carole, and thank you for sharing your story.


Of course it's unjust. If someone is caught trying to break into your home (a threat, though not a verbal one), you wouldn't have to get a lawyer to see the case through trial. The police would do what needs doing.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Joan Thelma said:


> I strongly disagree!!!!!
> 
> Remember - when you are in a situation where your life is at risk, the sight of a woman holding a loaded shotgun is the best way to protect yourself - until the Police finally arrive.
> 
> Until you have ever been in a life/death situation, you should never sit in judgment of one who has.


No judgement at all. (I meant to say fueled situation) In my warped imagination, this can turn into a scene from the OKay Corral and that would be tragic. Of course the crazed Ex should not be allowed guns. I am all for guns but not in the hands of mad men.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

I've never given my reason for being interested in this subject, but I think I should.

I had as a psychotherapy patient a very religious Muslim woman in her late thirties, whom I will call S. When I first met her, she was very quiet and was severely depressed and anxious. She also seemed to be mentally disabled. After a few months, I was able to piece together a good part of her story.

S was born in the Middle East to an educated middle-class family, and had recently started college and gotten a driver's license when her parents were approached by a man who asked for their daughter in marriage. Father and mother wanted a guarantee that S would be allowed to finish college and work at whatever career she chose; the man promised he would be happy to guarantee what they asked for.

Not long after the marriage, he told her that only stupid people have to go to school, and at his insistence she dropped out of college. He tore up her driver's license because she didn't have to drive as long as he was around. He also tried to cut off communication between her and her family, but it was a large family and he never succeeded.

When she became pregnant with their first son, the physical abuse started. He would jab her with pins when she said something he thought was "stupid" or stated that she wanted to reapply to college. He even stabbed her with scissors - on her thighs, where nobody could see the marks.

After their first son was born, the abuse escalated. He would sometimes slam her head against the hard tile floor. He was also brutal with her during sex. But she thought she needed him to support her and their children (she got pregnant again about two years after the first one was born). When the second boy came, husband would get angry because she was spending too much time tending to the children, and the beatings got worse. Then one day S noticed a burn mark on the older boy's arm, and she learned that he had been abusing the children as well, stubbing out cigarettes on the older one and slapping the younger one, who was still in the carriage.

As with so many others here, it was the child abuse that made her decide she had to get out of the marriage. She told her parents what she had been suffering, and they drove over, picked up her and her boys and brought them to their home. By this time S had suffered brain damage from the beatings on the tile floors and couldn't safely be left alone, so they paid for her sister to accompany her and the boys to the US and take care of her as best she could. 

A few years later S's younger brother got engaged, and she went back to her country for the first time since she left (about 18 years earlier). In describing the next part to me, she said the words every therapist wants to hear. She was sitting outdoors at a party, drinking juice, and saw husband walking toward her. "I could hear your voice telling me that he had no right to hurt me, and that I could protect myself against him." So she threw her glass of juice in his face and walked into the house. He left the party, with juice all over his suit and a red mark on his face. She laughed as she told this to me - I think it was the first time I'd ever seen her laugh.

Then came the bad new and the good news: No woman was permitted to leave the country without her husband's permission, and she was afraid he would withhold it. Instead, they discovered that he had divorced her sometime in the past, and she was able to leave.

I wish this story had a happier ending, but the physical abuse had taken its toll. She has nightmares, and she is forgetful to the point of not remembering the address of the place she'd been living in for ten years. But she knows she's safe, and her sons (adults now) take good care of her and have sworn they will never let their father near her.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> No judgement at all. (I meant to say fueled situation) In my warped imagination, this can turn into a scene from the OKay Corral and that would be tragic. Of course the crazed Ex should not be allowed guns. I am all for guns but not in the hands of mad men.


If you can find a way to keep guns out of madmen, you would be considered a genuis as no one so far has found a way to stop this.

As my Dad use to always say "Locks keep honest people out" - the same applies for guns - criminals can always find a way to get a gun illegally.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> A song for all who've survived DV, or any abuse: With a Broken Wing, by Martina McBride. Another is Independence Day, also by her. She has several actually.
> One on child abuse, that breaks my heart every time I hear it, is Alyssa Lies by Jason Michael Carroll.


How well I can relate to these songs that Martina McBride sings from her heart and soul. That is just one of the reasons why I love to hear her singing her songs.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

There is also a subject that needs to be discussed.

Most of us had a "support sytem" once we made the decision to leave. BUT - there are others that don't have this advantage and feel trapped in their own prison.

For those, I would like them to know there is help out there even though you don't have family or close friends nearby willing to help you.

Almost every city or town have a Safe House for battered women and their children. If you don't know where they are, call you local Police Dept and ask for their phone number and give them a call.

These Safe Houses are NOT well known for a reason - to keep the abusers away from knowing where you are.

They keep these homes securely locked at all times and also provide a home atmosphere for you and your children, as well as counseling and helping you do whatever is necessary to return to a life where you can provide for your family by yourself. If you need to go back to school to get your GED, they will babysit your children while you are gone.

We have one or two here in Utica, NY and I send my donation to them every year as they are a blessing to those that need them.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> A song for all who've survived DV, or any abuse: With a Broken Wing, by Martina McBride. Another is Independence Day, also by her. She has several actually.
> One on child abuse, that breaks my heart every time I hear it, is Alyssa Lies by Jason Michael Carroll.


I must have been living under a rock for a long time. I never heard, "With a Broken Wing" before. Thanks for posting.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Joan Thelma--Utica, NY, sounds like a very female friendly place to live. Thank you for your informative posts. You never know how many may gain courage from the survivor stories and information, so many KPers have shared.


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## GinB (Sep 2, 2012)

kathycam said:


> I must have been living under a rock for a long time. I never heard, "With a Broken Wing" before. Thanks for posting.


The name of the song is "Broken Wing"


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> While I commiserate with your marital troubles, it seems that guns may only exacerbate an already fused situation.


I had the same attitude about guns for most of my life, until I saw far too many battered women, not being protected by Michigan's legal system. When I was hospitalized, years ago, I couldn't sleep because I heard someone crying and moaning all night and couldn't imagine why she wasn't getting pain medication or something. I got up and found a room with one lone beaten woman in it. She had been sleeping when she said a huge man, like a bear, got in her house and attacked and raped her. Her face was a bloody pulp, her body, black and blue. The police had brought her to to the hospital where she was apparently dumped in this room, all alone. I got a nurse and asked why she didn't have medication. They had no orders for her and couldn't do anything. I held her all night until finally a doctor came in to see her. After that, I knew I could, and absolutely would, shoot anyone coming after me, or anyone else, for that matter. When I got my gun, a cop told me if I shot an intruder and he fell outside the door, to be sure to drag him inside before calling the police. It seems they have to be INSIDE before you can protect yourself--breaking in the widows and door doesn't count. Hmmm.


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## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

I love analysis it was great reading this mojave and it sounds very feasible x


mojave said:


> Unable to locate the journal article, and the recollection is incomplete: A person subjected to ongoing abuse may form memory pathways in the brain which turn survival behaviors into automatic habits. The reward systems of the brain may be tied to execution of the habit(s).
> 
> My explanation: A person learning to play a violin will hold the violin and bow in awkward positions for several weeks; after a few months of practice, violin and bow will smoothly move into proper playing position.
> An example: An abuse receiver may learn submissive posture. When that posture deflects abuse, a mental reward pathway may develop and lead to automatic behavior. Standing straight would counter the reward pathway and may cause a stress hormone response.


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## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

Over here the law says the reaction must be commensurate with the attack and i spent a lot of time thinking about this sort of thing as my house was vandalised by a known criminal for 8 years. the police were useless and contemptible - food for thought ...


kathycam said:


> I had the same attitude about guns for most of my life, until I saw far too many battered women, not being protected by Michigan's legal system. When I was hospitalized, years ago, I couldn't sleep because I heard someone crying and moaning all night and couldn't imagine why she wasn't getting pain medication or something. I got up and found a room with one lone beaten woman in it. She had been sleeping when she said a huge man, like a bear, got in her house and attacked and raped her. Her face was a bloody pulp, her body, black and blue. The police had brought her to to the hospital where she was apparently dumped in this room, all alone. I got a nurse and asked why she didn't have medication. They had no orders for her and couldn't do anything. I held her all night until finally a doctor came in to see her. After that, I knew I could, and absolutely would, shoot anyone coming after me, or anyone else, for that matter. When I got my gun, a cop told me if I shot an intruder and he fell outside the door, to be sure to drag him inside before calling the police. It seems they have to be INSIDE before you can protect yourself--breaking in the widows and door doesn't count. Hmmm.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

kathycam said:


> Joan Thelma--Utica, NY, sounds like a very female friendly place to live. Thank you for your informative posts. You never know how many may gain courage from the survivor stories and information, so many KPers have shared.


The weather there is not people friendly tho.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

kathycam said:


> Joan Thelma--Utica, NY, sounds like a very female friendly place to live. Thank you for your informative posts. You never know how many may gain courage from the survivor stories and information, so many KPers have shared.


Thank you for the compliment BUT Utica is NOT that friendly of a place to live! I was born and raised here and too old to pull up stakes now and move. My two sons live out of state, and only my oldest and youngest daughters live near-by.

Utica is a depressed city - all the businesses that paid liveable wages have left and there are few jobs left that pay more than minimum wage. Over 53% of the population is receiving Welfare Benefits and we have a high percentage of immigrants that do not speak English, and are also on full Welfare. Our taxes are high and only 31% of the population are paying the City, County, and School Taxes. I recently sold the family home I inherited so I would not have to pay the taxes on it (I also own my own home that I pay taxes on).

Most of Utica has a high crime rate of drugs and robberies and the people that do these things have taken over the East and West sides of the City and destroyed it. Our Police Dept is one of the best in the world and are constantly arresting these low lifes.

There is HOPE!!!! We have a Governor that is helping to bring in high tech jobs, giving 10 year tax breaks to all businesses willing to bring their business into our area, and we should be seeing the results by the end of this year.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> The weather there is not people friendly tho.


Your right if you don't like cold weather!

But, this major storm we just had, Utica only got about 4 inches of the snow as Utica is in a valley; most of the snow is in the surrounding mountains with ski resorts that love this white stuff.

Utica is also the "Gateway to the Adirondacks" which is absolutely beautiful. Our Fall season here is breath taking and we have numerous lakes and parks for family outings. The people in the "North Country" are very down to earth and you are judged by NOT what you have, but what you are inside.

Overall, I would rather live here than the hustle and bustle of New York City and the hour commute to work on the Parkways - LOL!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Joan Thelma - I certainly agree with you on the beauties of upstate NY. You are a good Chamber of Commerce person.


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## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

kathycam said:


> I must have been living under a rock for a long time. I never heard, "With a Broken Wing" before. Thanks for posting.


You're welcome, but as GinB pointed out, I gave it a longer title than it has.

When you get time, you should look up her music. She is a very powerful voice against all types of abuse and oppression, and for 'girl power'.


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## GinB (Sep 2, 2012)

Here is a YouTube video of Martina McBride singing "Broken Wing":


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And then Stand Your Ground becomes law, but it apparently does not apply when a battered woman uses it. She 'fired for effect' and got 20 years. It's currently being retried, and the prosecution is going for 60 years.



kathycam said:


> I had the same attitude about guns for most of my life, until I saw far too many battered women, not being protected by Michigan's legal system. When I was hospitalized, years ago, I couldn't sleep because I heard someone crying and moaning all night and couldn't imagine why she wasn't getting pain medication or something. I got up and found a room with one lone beaten woman in it. She had been sleeping when she said a huge man, like a bear, got in her house and attacked and raped her. Her face was a bloody pulp, her body, black and blue. The police had brought her to to the hospital where she was apparently dumped in this room, all alone. I got a nurse and asked why she didn't have medication. They had no orders for her and couldn't do anything. I held her all night until finally a doctor came in to see her. After that, I knew I could, and absolutely would, shoot anyone coming after me, or anyone else, for that matter. When I got my gun, a cop told me if I shot an intruder and he fell outside the door, to be sure to drag him inside before calling the police. It seems they have to be INSIDE before you can protect yourself--breaking in the widows and door doesn't count. Hmmm.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

As one forced to abandon the Rust Belt for jobs, I understand.



Joan Thelma said:


> Thank you for the compliment BUT Utica is NOT that friendly of a place to live! I was born and raised here and too old to pull up stakes now and move. My two sons live out of state, and only my oldest and youngest daughters live near-by.
> 
> Utica is a depressed city - all the businesses that paid liveable wages have left and there are few jobs left that pay more than minimum wage. Over 53% of the population is receiving Welfare Benefits and we have a high percentage of immigrants that do not speak English, and are also on full Welfare. Our taxes are high and only 31% of the population are paying the City, County, and School Taxes. I recently sold the family home I inherited so I would not have to pay the taxes on it (I also own my own home that I pay taxes on).
> 
> ...


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## weemansmum (Sep 6, 2013)

I'm in England. I have lived with domestic abuse. I got out, with my children, in only the clothes we stood up in. We were placed in a refuge 75miles away and lived there for a year. I was re-homed and tracked down through a friend and beaten badly in front of the children again. I pressed charges but they were dropped as he skipped bail and disappeared.

That was 10 years ago. It still affects me and I suffer with PTSD, depression and other things. I do not have contact with any of my friends from before as it was easier than being tracked down again. BUT - my children are ok. I managed to get them some counselling on a pilot scheme and it worked. They have something I've never had - self-esteem. They are now 18, 16 and 11. They are all at Grammar schools (sorry I don't know the US equivalent of that) and are all well-balanced, grounded and loving.

I have no worries about how they will behave in relationships (neither of the older ones have had one yet). As a family, we have broken the cycle. As mothers we really need to focus on that. If we don't educate our children properly the abuse will continue. It'a not a quick fix but I don't see what else will work.

Boys and girls need to have self-esteem and to know that violence doesn't have a place in a relationship.

On a side note, I thank God that we don't have guns here in the same way that you do in the US. I have taken beatings and been in genuine fear of my life and a gun in my hands may have deterred some of that but it's more likely that I wouldn't be here now.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

weemansmum said:


> I'm in England. I have lived with domestic abuse. I got out, with my children, in only the clothes we stood up in. We were placed in a refuge 75miles away and lived there for a year. I was re-homed and tracked down through a friend and beaten badly in front of the children again. I pressed charges but they were dropped as he skipped bail and disappeared.
> 
> That was 10 years ago. It still affects me and I suffer with PTSD, depression and other things. I do not have contact with any of my friends from before as it was easier than being tracked down again. BUT - my children are ok. I managed to get them some counselling on a pilot scheme and it worked. They have something I've never had - self-esteem. They are now 18, 16 and 11. They are all at Grammar schools (sorry I don't know the US equivalent of that) and are all well-balanced, grounded and loving.
> 
> ...


Weemans mum, how incredibly brave you were, to leave home with three young children - one really still a baby - not knowing what the future would hold but knowing you had to save them from the life you were enduring. And to stay away, knowing you had given up all material belongings to be able to give them safety and a future.

Do you ever think of yourself as a heroine? That's how you sound to me.

And as to guns, I agree that they don't always provide safety and can be used against the abuse victim too easily. But apparently I'm in the minority in this country. And if the abuser wants to do serious damage, a knife will work, too (one of the stories we've been told was about a woman in England who was stabbed to death by her husband; her family continues to mourn her loss more than 15 years later).

Now that you're certain your children are fine, it's time to work on yourself.


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## weemansmum (Sep 6, 2013)

Purl, thank you but I'm not a heroine. I was duped by a charmer but I made a choice to enter the relationship - my children didn't. I had to make a choice to get out and stay out. That choice is difficult and individual to each woman. It can come at any time. I was lucky in that my children never lost faith in me as a Mum and we stayed a strong unit. There was anger for a while, especially from my eldest son, but there was never any lasting blame. His counsellor said it had helped him greatly that he had seen me defend him. He knew in his heart that I was on his side.

As the children grow I know I need to try to sort myself but it's hard and I take one day at a time. I'm lucky to have a supportive partner now too so, some days, I feel like I'm 'normal'. It's hard to accept that I'll never be the person I once was but I work hard to see that the person I am now is worth me getting to know properly. I'm struggling still with the guilt but I was raised a Catholic so that may never go away completely!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

weemansmum said:


> Purl, thank you but I'm not a heroine. I was duped by a charmer but I made a choice to enter the relationship - my children didn't. I had to make a choice to get out and stay out. That choice is difficult and individual to each woman. It can come at any time. I was lucky in that my children never lost faith in me as a Mum and we stayed a strong unit. There was anger for a while, especially from my eldest son, but there was never any lasting blame. His counsellor said it had helped him greatly that he had seen me defend him. He knew in his heart that I was on his side.
> 
> As the children grow I know I need to try to sort myself but it's hard and I take one day at a time. I'm lucky to have a supportive partner now too so, some days, I feel like I'm 'normal'. It's hard to accept that I'll never be the person I once was but I work hard to see that the person I am now is worth me getting to know properly. I'm struggling still with the guilt but I was raised a Catholic so that may never go away completely!


I found this response heartening because you talked about choices. When abusees realize that they really do have choices, they can make the right ones like you did. Brava!


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

weemansmum said:


> Purl, thank you but I'm not a heroine. I was duped by a charmer but I made a choice to enter the relationship - my children didn't. I had to make a choice to get out and stay out. That choice is difficult and individual to each woman. It can come at any time. I was lucky in that my children never lost faith in me as a Mum and we stayed a strong unit. There was anger for a while, especially from my eldest son, but there was never any lasting blame. His counsellor said it had helped him greatly that he had seen me defend him. He knew in his heart that I was on his side.
> 
> As the children grow I know I need to try to sort myself but it's hard and I take one day at a time. I'm lucky to have a supportive partner now too so, some days, I feel like I'm 'normal'. It's hard to accept that I'll never be the person I once was but I work hard to see that the person I am now is worth me getting to know properly. I'm struggling still with the guilt but I was raised a Catholic so that may never go away completely!


weemansmum, I admire you greatly. The physical effects such as bruises disappear, the emotional and psychological effects last much longer and may never go away. You are a strong woman and a great mother. May you have happiness and peace in your life forever.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> weemansmum, I admire you greatly. The physical effects such as bruises disappear, the emotional and psychological effects last much longer and may never go away. You are a strong woman and a great mother. May you have happiness and peace in your life forever.


Again, our Fair Lady, has a choice to whether or not let her past experiences affect her current life. She can choose to close the emotional door on her idiot ex and live with happiness. It depends on how you look at things.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

weemansmum said:


> Purl, thank you but I'm not a heroine. I was duped by a charmer but I made a choice to enter the relationship - my children didn't. I had to make a choice to get out and stay out. That choice is difficult and individual to each woman. It can come at any time. I was lucky in that my children never lost faith in me as a Mum and we stayed a strong unit. There was anger for a while, especially from my eldest son, but there was never any lasting blame. His counsellor said it had helped him greatly that he had seen me defend him. He knew in his heart that I was on his side.
> 
> As the children grow I know I need to try to sort myself but it's hard and I take one day at a time. I'm lucky to have a supportive partner now too so, some days, I feel like I'm 'normal'. It's hard to accept that I'll never be the person I once was but I work hard to see that the person I am now is worth me getting to know properly. I'm struggling still with the guilt but I was raised a Catholic so that may never go away completely!


Okay, not a heroine. Just an ordinary mum, who grabbed up three little ones to save them from being abused by the worst life choice she could have made and brought them to safety, not once but twice. Then made certain they were happy and healthy, though suffering still from depression and guilt. Not a heroine at all.

You say potahto, and I say potato.

PS - I love your dog picture: beautiful and goofy-looking at the same time.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

gma11331 said:


> Re MaidinBedlam confronting her teacher years later: My DD was molested by the father of the children she babysat for and we didn't learn of it until years later and she became the classic textbook case: alcohol abuse, unable to sustain an appropriate relationship, self-esteem nil, etc. He and his family had moved away but I found his address and about ten years ago I wrote him a letter letting him know how his actions had affected her life and that of her four children (from different relationships and three of who I practically raised). Then recently her 23 y/o daughter decided she wanted to let him know also and wrote him a long letter. DD is 48 now and very active in AA but her life was scarred beyond belief and I hope he lives his life knowing that another letter might be coming around the corner to remind him of his transgressions. And I pretty sure my DD wasn't his only victim during his "career."


It's sad to hear that your daughter was molested by the father of children she babysat for, and really great to hear that you and one of your GDs wrote to him and told him what damage he had done. When any one of us can catch up with a past abuser and tell them straight out what their actions resulted in, we do something invaluable for ourselves. I hope your daughter can write her abuser some day, too.

As I said already, my abusive teacher said she knew who I was so fast, and after not hearing my name for 50 years, that I can only believe my father's confrontation with her made an extremely deep and lasting impression on her. I was actually amazingly surprised tha she remembered me so clearly. I treasure that, and it reminds me that my dad was a "knight in shining armor" for me. We need more people like my dad, peole who will confront abusers on behalf of someone who, for many reasons, can't do it themselves.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

LindaHaddon said:


> MaidInBedlam .. love what you were saying. Very true, there are many different kinds of abuse.
> I love reading this topic! I hate the fact that some women got abused and the police didn't do much about it. That is so sad. But glad that you all bring this fact out.


And we haven't even gotten into the subject of elder-abuse and the increasing abuse of teenage girls by their boyfriends ...This is a great topic and I really appreciate the way it's opened up discussions about several kinds of abuse.

I think this topic is also a great example of all that is good on KP. When people need moral support, there are a lot of KPers ready to offer that.

Many thanks, Poor Purl, for starting tis thread.


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## franniep (May 16, 2011)

Anna Quindlen is a most remarkable author. Her book "Three Novels" contains story titled "Black and Blue". It is about a abused wife who left her husband with her child. 
I recommend this book wholeheartedly. Quindlen writes beautifully and has an infinite capacity for revealing truth and reality.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

damemary said:


> I have to admit that this thread is my favorite. Very rewarding to read and contribute to.


Poor Purl really came up with a great thread. It's impossible for the same kind of ugly arguments on topics like "War on Womem" and "Obamacare" to take place here. Domestic violence cuts across all lines of age, race, religious beliefs and political beliefs, to mention just a few.

I think this topic gives women a great place to tell their stories and support each other. That's a big deal as far as I'm concerned. This is a safe place, even though it exists in an intangible place called the Internet. And an abuser may not think an innocent little website about knitting provides a safe place for a woman he is abusing.

Sounds pretty good, doesn't it?


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## Juleen (Jun 3, 2011)

Just the idea of outlawing guns makes me furious and scared! I personally got a gun out one night when someone tried to break into my house. I have the right to be able to protect my life and the lives of those I love! I made up my mind many years ago, that I will not be beaten, raped and murdered--I will shoot! As far as the mass shootings, if even one person who was shot had had a gun, perhaps some would have survived! As far as mass shootings, each person involved had a long history of mental problems and didn't get the help they needed. We need more and easier accessible mental help! How about all the drunk drivers who kill many more people by driving drunk--are we going to outlaw booze? Tried that once, didn't work. Please remember: GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE! Please put your energies into helping to get mental help for those who are a danger to society!


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## dawn1960 (Jan 5, 2014)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Poor Purl really came up with a great thread. It's impossible for the same kind of ugly arguments on topics like "War on Womem" and "Obamacare" to take place here. Domestic violence cuts across all lines of age, race, religious beliefs and political beliefs, to mention just a few.
> 
> I think this topic gives women a great place to tell their stories and support each other. That's a big deal as far as I'm concerned. This is a safe place, even though it exists in an intangible place called the Internet. And an abuser may not think an innocent little website about knitting provides a safe place for a woman he is abusing.
> 
> Sounds pretty good, doesn't it?


Those are such valid and important points. Anything that provides help and support for an abused or bullied person is to be welcomed. This forum, and in particular, this thread, may help someone reach a life-changing decision. Let us continue to support each other.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Juleen said:


> Just the idea of outlawing guns makes me furious and scared! I personally got a gun out one night when someone tried to break into my house. I have the right to be able to protect my life and the lives of those I love! I made up my mind many years ago, that I will not be beaten, raped and murdered--I will shoot! As far as the mass shootings, if even one person who was shot had had a gun, perhaps some would have survived! As far as mass shootings, each person involved had a long history of mental problems and didn't get the help they needed. We need more and easier accessible mental help! How about all the drunk drivers who kill many more people by driving drunk--are we going to outlaw booze? Tried that once, didn't work. Please remember: GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE! Please put your energies into helping to get mental help for those who are a danger to society!


People with guns kill a lot more than people without guns. I think it's a major problem that so many guns are available in this country that you almost have to have one to feel safe. As far as mass shootings are concerned, these people really are dangerous no matter what weapon they're holding - in China recently there was a stabbing incident in which many people were killed. And if people start shooting the shooter, there's a good chance innocent people will be shot as well.

It also frightens me that too many gun owners don't make certain their guns are locked up and out of reach of children. There have been too many deaths caused by children thinking they're playing.

But, again, if a gun makes you feel secure, and you make certain it can't be taken by a child, you have to do what you have to do. Stay safe.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> People with guns kill a lot more than people without guns. I think it's a major problem that so many guns are available in this country that you almost have to have one to feel safe. As far as mass shootings are concerned, these people really are dangerous no matter what weapon they're holding - in China recently there was a stabbing incident in which many people were killed. And if people start shooting the shooter, there's a good chance innocent people will be shot as well.
> 
> It also frightens me that too many gun owners don't make certain their guns are locked up and out of reach of children. There have been too many deaths caused by children thinking they're playing.
> 
> But, again, if a gun makes you feel secure, and you make certain it can't be taken by a child, you have to do what you have to do. Stay safe.


It frightens me that someone like that man in Houston TX who shot that boy get away with it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> It frightens me that someone like that man in Houston TX who shot that boy get away with it.


It should frighten everyone, but that doesn't translate to fearing gun violence. I don't know why, but the more frightened people are, the more they want their guns.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Juleen said:


> Just the idea of outlawing guns makes me furious and scared! I personally got a gun out one night when someone tried to break into my house. I have the right to be able to protect my life and the lives of those I love! I made up my mind many years ago, that I will not be beaten, raped and murdered--I will shoot! As far as the mass shootings, if even one person who was shot had had a gun, perhaps some would have survived! As far as mass shootings, each person involved had a long history of mental problems and didn't get the help they needed. We need more and easier accessible mental help! How about all the drunk drivers who kill many more people by driving drunk--are we going to outlaw booze? Tried that once, didn't work. Please remember: GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE! Please put your energies into helping to get mental help for those who are a danger to society!


People who perform mass shootings obviously have a history of mental health problems. They don't get the help they need because people around them don't seek it out and because OUR MENTAL HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS IN THE TOILET.

Drunk drivers should be penalized a lot sooner and more severely that they are now. If you are concerned about this, start hounding those who control DUI systems where you live. Personally, I think drivers should have their licenses taken away from them until they start going to AA or NA meetings, or some kind of rehab, and are clean and sober for at least 5 years.

GUNS KILL FOOLS WHO HAVE THEM WITHIN EASY REACH OF SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO USE THAT HANDY, DANDY TOOL. More people are killed by intruders who gain access to their victims' guns than intruders are killed by gun owners.

Do you have any idea how long it takes to modify or rescind any Amendment to the US Constitution? The 2nd Amendment to the Constitution has to either be modified or completely overruled by a new Amendment. Since the 2nd Amendment is one of the Amendments we call the Bill of Rights, it could take 50 years to change or annul it.

The one possible way around the 2nd Amendment is that it says "Congress shall make no law". This "might" (and I think this is a pretty slim "might" ) means that States' Rights could be claimed as valid, and individual states, counties and municipalities could enact gun control laws. However, that is probably unlikely because whatever functions Congress claims solely for themselves aren't subject to the State's rights argument.

Another unfortunate aspect of changing or annulling the 2nd Amendment is that the fight to do so will be led by liberals who believe every and anything they read that comes from so-called liberal sources. Once they are allowed to break into the Bill of Rights through its weakest link, the 2nd Amendment, look out! The Bill of Rights will then be open for any kind of modification you can think of and a bunch you can't. In fact, it will be laid open to those who would rape it and take away all of our rights.

I'm glad I'm 64.There's every possibility that I won't live long enough to see any of what I've described.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> People who perform mass shootings obviously have a history of mental health problems. They don't get the help they need because people around them don't seek it out and because OUR MENTAL HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS IN THE TOILET.
> 
> Drunk drivers should be penalized a lot sooner and more severely that they are now. If you are concerned about this, start hounding those who control DUI systems where you live. Personally, I think drivers should have their licenses taken away from them until they start going to AA or NA meetings, or some kind of rehab, and are clean and sober for at least 5 years.
> 
> ...


Really? Corporations have been declared people and have a right to free speech and you are worried about liberals raping the Bill of Rights? 
I know many people who work within Moms Demand Action. NONE of them are interested in changinf the US Constitution to remove guns from homes. As a matter of fact I don't know a single liberal, including myself, who wants to take guns away. Most of us are not even interested in a generic "mental illness" clause. The main reason for that is we actually read and think and know that mental illness does not often cause people to become violent.

Not that there are not some out there, there are fringy people in every movement. 
So, please, stop the fearmongering and generalizing.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> It's sad to hear that your daughter was molested by the father of children she babysat for, and really great to hear that you and one of your GDs wrote to him and told him what damage he had done. When any one of us can catch up with a past abuser and tell them straight out what their actions resulted in, we do something invaluable for ourselves. I hope your daughter can write her abuser some day, too.
> 
> As I said already, my abusive teacher said she knew who I was so fast, and after not hearing my name for 50 years, that I can only believe my father's confrontation with her made an extremely deep and lasting impression on her. I was actually amazingly surprised tha she remembered me so clearly. I treasure that, and it reminds me that my dad was a "knight in shining armor" for me. We need more people like my dad, peole who will confront abusers on behalf of someone who, for many reasons, can't do it themselves.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

She's one of my favorite authors. I'm reading one of her books right now.



franniep said:


> Anna Quindlen is a most remarkable author. Her book "Three Novels" contains story titled "Black and Blue". It is about a abused wife who left her husband with her child.
> I recommend this book wholeheartedly. Quindlen writes beautifully and has an infinite capacity for revealing truth and reality.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

The latest of Joe Nocera's gun reports...

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/opinion/editorialsandoped/oped/columnists/joenocera/index.html

Shyanne Roberts stood up at a New Jersey Assembly hearing yesterday and asserted her right to bear arms. I am not a gangbanger or domestic terrorist, she told the Law and Public Safety Committee, speaking against a bill that would limit the magazine capacity of firearms to 10 rounds from the current 15-round maximum. The bill passed the committee 5 to 3.

Shyanne Roberts is nine years old. She got her first gun, a pink Crickett single-shot .22, as a gift for her sixth birthday. A competitive shooter, she is awaiting a custom AR-15 rifle from a sponsor. I am an example to others that kids and guns dont always lead to bad things happening, she testified.

As hearing wore on, the discussion turned from competitive shooting to fears about totalitarianism and home invasion. If you tried to tell the Marine Corps how many rounds they can carry in their magazines, youd be speaking Japanese and German right now, Tony DeSantis, a veteran of the Marines, testified.

Those looking to reduce gun violence disagree. Limiting magazines to 10 rounds is an act that will make New Jersey safer for ourselves and our families, Kristin Wald of the state chapter of Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America said. Magazines with fewer bullets mean fewer deaths, period.

Meanwhile, the accidental shooting death of a 3-year-old boy in Eureka, Tex., this week has prompted police in Hewitt to offer free gun locks to its residents.

Theres no excuse for not locking up a gun when its near a child, Jim Devlin, the Hewitt police chief, told KWTX. Its a state law.

On Monday, Braison Howard was visiting relatives when he wandered outside with his 8-year-old cousin, who found a loaded 20-gauge shotgun near a shed. The older boy pulled the trigger, killing his young cousin. Three adults were inside the home at the time. Police are weighing charges.

Please use the link to weep about all of the killings in the US, I didn't see one that was a homeowner protecting the property that is more important than a human life.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Poor Purl really came up with a great thread. It's impossible for the same kind of ugly arguments on topics like "War on Womem" and "Obamacare" to take place here. Domestic violence cuts across all lines of age, race, religious beliefs and political beliefs, to mention just a few.
> 
> I think this topic gives women a great place to tell their stories and support each other. That's a big deal as far as I'm concerned. This is a safe place, even though it exists in an intangible place called the Internet. And an abuser may not think an innocent little website about knitting provides a safe place for a woman he is abusing.
> 
> Sounds pretty good, doesn't it?


It's great. "An innocent little website about knitting." Who'd a thunk it?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> She's one of my favorite authors. I'm reading one of her books right now.


There was a writer who had been sexually abused by her father, and for some reason the mention of Anna Quindlen made me think of her. I'm pretty sure it's not Quindlen but someone of her generation (literarily speaking). Back to wikipedia.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Why are you talking this nonsense? What are you REALLY trying to say? Who threatened to take your guns away? IF someone has an opinion of guns that is in opposition to yours, they are entitled to their opinion, as are you.

The topic of this thread is domestic violence. What does that have to do with a burgler? Mass shootings have not been discussed here either.

Are you lost perhaps?



Juleen said:


> Just the idea of outlawing guns makes me furious and scared! I personally got a gun out one night when someone tried to break into my house. I have the right to be able to protect my life and the lives of those I love! I made up my mind many years ago, that I will not be beaten, raped and murdered--I will shoot! As far as the mass shootings, if even one person who was shot had had a gun, perhaps some would have survived! As far as mass shootings, each person involved had a long history of mental problems and didn't get the help they needed. We need more and easier accessible mental help! How about all the drunk drivers who kill many more people by driving drunk--are we going to outlaw booze? Tried that once, didn't work. Please remember: GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE! Please put your energies into helping to get mental help for those who are a danger to society!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And the more at risk we all are, in my opinion. A situation where everyone is nervous and armed doesn't bode well for anyone.



Poor Purl said:


> It should frighten everyone, but that doesn't translate to fearing gun violence. I don't know why, but the more frightened people are, the more they want their guns.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> Really? Corporations have been declared people and have a right to free speech and you are worried about liberals raping the Bill of Rights?
> I know many people who work within Moms Demand Action. NONE of them are interested in changinf the US Constitution to remove guns from homes. As a matter of fact I don't know a single liberal, including myself, who wants to take guns away. Most of us are not even interested in a generic "mental illness" clause. The main reason for that is we actually read and think and know that mental illness does not often cause people to become violent.
> 
> Not that there are not some out there, there are fringy people in every movement.
> So, please, stop the fearmongering and generalizing.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Opinions are one thing. Practicality another. What could possibly be done with the weapons currently in private hands? Worry about the right things and pick your battles.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> And the more at risk we all are, in my opinion. A situation where everyone is nervous and armed doesn't bode well for anyone.


My thoughts exactly.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

weemansmum said:


> I'm in England. I have lived with domestic abuse. I got out, with my children, in only the clothes we stood up in. We were placed in a refuge 75miles away and lived there for a year. I was re-homed and tracked down through a friend and beaten badly in front of the children again. I pressed charges but they were dropped as he skipped bail and disappeared.
> 
> That was 10 years ago. It still affects me and I suffer with PTSD, depression and other things. I do not have contact with any of my friends from before as it was easier than being tracked down again. BUT - my children are ok. I managed to get them some counselling on a pilot scheme and it worked. They have something I've never had - self-esteem. They are now 18, 16 and 11. They are all at Grammar schools (sorry I don't know the US equivalent of that) and are all well-balanced, grounded and loving.
> 
> ...


Your story is very similiar to mine (I previously posted it). I also walked out on my own home, took my children -ages10. 8 and 3, with only our clothes but moved in with my Mom and Dad and converted the attic in their bungalow into 2 bedrooms and a living area (bathroom was alreadythere).

I left because of a severe beating the night before and where I almost killed him. After the beating, all I remember when he rolled over and went to sleep, I had to get away from him (we had been married for 11 years). I felt like I was ice cold without any feelings at all and was very calm. I walked out into the kitchen, got the biggest knife I could, walked back into the bedroom where his back was turned to me snoring away, and raised the knife with every intention of plunging it into his back.

At the split second before lowering the knife, sanity returned and I still remember the thought that went thru my head - "Who is going to take care of the kids if you kill him". That thought saved his life!!!!He went to his grave never knowing just how close he came to me killing him that night.

I stayed up all night thinking and I came to the conclusion he was no good to me, and was a lousy father to the children (he rules them out of fear) so why was I staying. The next morning I left and never returned.

I give you a lot of credit for following thru and never returning even though you had to live in a Shelter for a year. I know how difficult that can be; especially when you are totally emotionally drained.

Congradulations on being a "Survivor" - it takes alot of tears and strength to earn this title.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You have both earned the honorific of survivor.



Joan Thelma said:


> Your story is very similiar to mine (I previously posted it). I also walked out on my own home, took my children -ages10. 8 and 3, with only our clothes but moved in with my Mom and Dad and converted the attic in their bungalow into 2 bedrooms and a living area (bathroom was alreadythere).
> 
> I left because of a severe beating the night before and where I almost killed him. After the beating, all I remember when he rolled over and went to sleep, I had to get away from him (we had been married for 11 years). I felt like I was ice cold without any feelings at all and was very calm. I walked out into the kitchen, got the biggest knife I could, walked back into the bedroom where his back was turned to me snoring away, and raised the knife with every intention of plunging it into his back.
> 
> ...


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

weemansmum wrote:
I'm in England. I have lived with domestic abuse. I got out, with my children, in only the clothes we stood up in. We were placed in a refuge 75miles away and lived there for a year. I was re-homed and tracked down through a friend and beaten badly in front of the children again. I pressed charges but they were dropped as he skipped bail and disappeared.

That was 10 years ago. It still affects me and I suffer with PTSD, depression and other things. I do not have contact with any of my friends from before as it was easier than being tracked down again. BUT - my children are ok. I managed to get them some counselling on a pilot scheme and it worked. They have something I've never had - self-esteem. They are now 18, 16 and 11. They are all at Grammar schools (sorry I don't know the US equivalent of that) and are all well-balanced, grounded and loving.

I have no worries about how they will behave in relationships (neither of the older ones have had one yet). As a family, we have broken the cycle. As mothers we really need to focus on that. If we don't educate our children properly the abuse will continue. It'a not a quick fix but I don't see what else will work.

Boys and girls need to have self-esteem and to know that violence doesn't have a place in a relationship.

On a side note, I thank God that we don't have guns here in the same way that you do in the US. I have taken beatings and been in genuine fear of my life and a gun in my hands may have deterred some of that but it's more likely that I wouldn't be here now.

Your story is very similiar to mine (I previously posted it). I also walked out on my own home, took my children -ages10. 8 and 3, with only our clothes but moved in with my Mom and Dad and converted the attic in their bungalow into 2 bedrooms and a living area (bathroom was alreadythere).

I left because of a severe beating the night before and where I almost killed him. After the beating, all I remember when he rolled over and went to sleep, I had to get away from him (we had been married for 11 years). I felt like I was ice cold without any feelings at all and was very calm. I walked out into the kitchen, got the biggest knife I could, walked back into the bedroom where his back was turned to me snoring away, and raised the knife with every intention of plunging it into his back.

At the split second before lowering the knife, sanity returned and I still remember the thought that went thru my head - "Who is going to take care of the kids if you kill him". That thought saved his life!!!!He went to his grave never knowing just how close he came to me killing him that night.

I stayed up all night thinking and I came to the conclusion he was no good to me, and was a lousy father to the children (he rules them out of fear) so why was I staying. The next morning I left and never returned.

I give you a lot of credit for following thru and never returning even though you had to live in a Shelter for a year. I know how difficult that can be; especially when you are totally emotionally drained.

Congradulations on being a "Survivor" - it takes alot of tears and strength to earn this title.

Murphy's Law is the story of my life.
********************************************

So glad that you are both here to tell your stories.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

I live alone in a neighborhood of retired married couples living on my left and 2 that live directly across the street - all have guns and are not afraid to use them (retired law enforment). I don't have a gun -but- thinking of getting a single shot shotgun.

The way I look at being armed and knowing how to use a weapon is that you pray you will never need to use it -BUT- to save your life, you know how and what to do.

I have already discussed this with top policemen friends, as well as the State Police, and ALL of them have told me I have every right in the world to use a gun on anyone that comes into my home UNINVICTED and I feel threatened.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Joan Thelma said:


> I live alone in a neighborhood of retired married couples living on my left and 2 that live directly across the street - all have guns and are not afraid to use them (retired law enforment). I don't have a gun -but- thinking of getting a single shot shotgun.
> 
> The way I look at being armed and knowing how to use a weapon is that you pray you will never need to use it -BUT- to save your life, you know how and what to do.
> 
> I have already discussed this with top policemen friends, as well as the State Police, and ALL of them have told me I have every right in the world to use a gun on anyone that comes into my home UNINVICTED and I feel threatened.


I don't believe that anyone has a right to kill another, but, to each his own.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Who would ever disagree that you have every right to defend yourself? But are you sure you will quickly and correctly assess the situation? Are you sure you cannot be over-powered and your weapon used against you? Are you sure that another member of the household cannot handle the weapon?

Just considerations that I'm sure you've considered.

In my opinion, you've chosen the right weapon for home defense.



Joan Thelma said:


> I live alone in a neighborhood of retired married couples living on my left and 2 that live directly across the street - all have guns and are not afraid to use them (retired law enforment). I don't have a gun -but- thinking of getting a single shot shotgun.
> 
> The way I look at being armed and knowing how to use a weapon is that you pray you will never need to use it -BUT- to save your life, you know how and what to do.
> 
> I have already discussed this with top policemen friends, as well as the State Police, and ALL of them have told me I have every right in the world to use a gun on anyone that comes into my home UNINVICTED and I feel threatened.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I believe in self defense, but I think it's difficult for anyone to do.



Janet Cooke said:


> I don't believe that anyone has a right to kill another, but, to each his own.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

damemary said:


> I believe in self defense, but I think it's difficult for anyone to do.


As I said, to each his own, there are too many opportunities to make a mistake. 
That case in Houston must be big news in AZ, isn't it?
A young boy dead because a man's daughter was afraid to be in trouble? 
There are just too many cases of people looking for help being killed, it gives me the creeps. 
I would much rather use my wits and my training than to shoot someone.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

damemary said:


> Who would ever disagree that you have every right to defend yourself? But are you sure you will quickly and correctly assess the situation? Are you sure you cannot be over-powered and your weapon used against you? Are you sure that another member of the household cannot handle the weapon?
> 
> Just considerations that I'm sure you've considered.
> 
> In my opinion, you've chosen the right weapon for home defense.


All of your questions are very valid, and they are the ones anyone in law enforcement ask. Let me answer each one:
1)Yes, I an positive that if someone should break into my home in the middle of the night, or when I'm awake, I definitely know if they should be there - or not.

2)This is the tough one - I have already been told by LE that once you point a gun at someone, you better be prepared to use it or they will take it away from you and use it on you! I would tell the intruder that I have a shotgun and intend to use it if he came any closer to me. If he ignores the warning, and starts coming towards me - I shoot!
3)I live alone - no other member of the household exists. Once again, if I want something done it is all up to me!!!!!

The only negative feeling would be knowing I took someone else's life which would be a tough thing for me to live with.

But, one of our largest instincts is "self survival".


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I sincerely hope you never have to defend yourself at home, but you're as prepared as you can be.



Joan Thelma said:


> All of your questions are very valid, and they are the ones anyone in law enforcement ask. Let me answer each one:
> 1)Yes, I an positive that if someone should break into my home in the middle of the night, or when I'm awake, I definitely know if they should be there - or not.
> 
> 2)This is the tough one - I have already been told by LE that once you point a gun at someone, you better be prepared to use it or they will take it away from you and use it on you! I would tell the intruder that I have a shotgun and intend to use it if he came any closer to me. If he ignores the warning, and starts coming towards me - I shoot!
> ...


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

Thank you Damemary - I hope I don't either.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

I'm sorry I posted anything about the 2nd Amendment here on DV. Further discussion should take place on WOW#5. Any discussion about guns should be kept out of this topic as much as it can, or the door will be opened to RWN participation that will muddy the waters of an otherwise open discussion that doesn't descend into insults and childish behaviour.


Janet Cooke said:


> Really? Corporations have been declared people and have a right to free speech and you are worried about liberals raping the Bill of Rights?
> I know many people who work within Moms Demand Action. NONE of them are interested in changinf the US Constitution to remove guns from homes. As a matter of fact I don't know a single liberal, including myself, who wants to take guns away. Most of us are not even interested in a generic "mental illness" clause. The main reason for that is we actually read and think and know that mental illness does not often cause people to become violent.
> 
> Not that there are not some out there, there are fringy people in every movement.
> So, please, stop the fearmongering and generalizing.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I'm sorry I posted anything about the 2nd Amendment here on DV. Further discussion should take place on WOW#5. Any discussion about guns should be kept out of this topic as much as it can, or the door will be opened to RWN participation that will muddy the waters of an otherwise open discussion that doesn't descend into insults and childish behaviour.


Firearms are a very real part of domestic violence considerations.


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## CaroleJS (Jun 2, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd9rQ5pu3m8#aid=P-16va8ff6c

The above I feel says it all. This is one of many songs I listened to on a daily routine to help build my self esteem and confidence to get out of the relationship I was in. It worked and I have recommended the songs I listened to to other women too. It helped them too.


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## CaroleJS (Jun 2, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> The latest of Joe Nocera's gun reports...
> 
> http://topics.nytimes.com/top/opinion/editorialsandoped/oped/columnists/joenocera/index.html
> 
> ...


Being a gun owner, there is such a thing as a "Responsible Gun Owner". Anyone who takes a GOOD hand gun course is taught this. As with any Tool, you have to know how to use it in a responsible manner.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

My ex was a hunter and had 2 pistols along with a shotgun and rifle.One of these pistols was a 357 Magum!!! Anyone that knows anything about guns knows what a powerful gun this is. When I finally left, it was the week after Christmas. I also should mention that I was the one who paid all the bills and had control over the checkbook.

BEFORE Christmas, he had come home drunk in the middle of the night and woke me up from a sound sleep and made me get up and come out to the kitchen. I then sat down at the opposite end from where he was sitting. Then he started telling me how much he "loved" me and couldn't live without me and POINTED THE LOADED 357 AT ME saying he was going to kill me!!!!!! Talk about being scared - I was petrified.

After about 5 minutes, he then turn the gun around and pointed it at himself telling me it was all my fault he was going to kill himself!!!!

After 1/2 hour of his little drama, he laid his head down on the table and passed out - where I took the gun out of his hands and left him there.

The next morning I told him that we were broke and I didn't have enough money to buy the kids any Christmas presents (lie) and he needed to pawn his 2 pistols to get extra money. It would only be for a few weeks then he could get them back. He agreed and the guns were taken out of the house.

I must say, I am not a liar and it was very difficult to come up with this story and make it believable - but I did. If I had not done this, it would have just been a matter of time before he killed me and, possibly, even all the children.

Domestic violence is nothing that can be swept under the rug as it just gets worst and worst until someone either leaves or dies.

Remember - this was back in the mid 60's and there was NO Domestic Violence laws on the books, and no Battered Woman defense in the Court Rooms. Women today have no excuse for living in fear and taking abuse from any man.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You amaze and inspire me. What you've been through! I'm so happy you're here to share this with us. The assistance available has certainly changed for the better over the years.



Joan Thelma said:


> My ex was a hunter and had 2 pistols along with a shotgun and rifle.One of these pistols was a 357 Magum!!! Anyone that knows anything about guns knows what a powerful gun this is. When I finally left, it was the week after Christmas. I also should mention that I was the one who paid all the bills and had control over the checkbook.
> 
> BEFORE Christmas, he had come home drunk in the middle of the night and woke me up from a sound sleep and made me get up and come out to the kitchen. I then sat down at the opposite end from where he was sitting. Then he started telling me how much he "loved" me and couldn't live without me and POINTED THE LOADED 357 AT ME saying he was going to kill me!!!!!! Talk about being scared - I was petrified.
> 
> ...


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Joan Thelma said:


> My ex was a hunter and had 2 pistols along with a shotgun and rifle.One of these pistols was a 357 Magum!!! Anyone that knows anything about guns knows what a powerful gun this is. When I finally left, it was the week after Christmas. I also should mention that I was the one who paid all the bills and had control over the checkbook.
> 
> BEFORE Christmas, he had come home drunk in the middle of the night and woke me up from a sound sleep and made me get up and come out to the kitchen. I then sat down at the opposite end from where he was sitting. Then he started telling me how much he "loved" me and couldn't live without me and POINTED THE LOADED 357 AT ME saying he was going to kill me!!!!!! Talk about being scared - I was petrified.
> 
> ...


Women are trained as children to accept abuse and to live in fear, they don't need an excuse; they certainly don't need anyone judging them.


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## Juleen (Jun 3, 2011)

My mom was a very strong lady who told me to never never never accept any kind abuse from a man. She saw that I had an education (teaching) so I could support myself and my children. I am very very lucky to have a hubby who is awesome. Yes, sometimes we make stinkeye at each other and argue but physically and emotionally he has never mistreated me. I am blessed!


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> Firearms are a very real part of domestic violence considerations.


I'm aware of that. I was concerned that a discussion of the 2nd Amendment would take over this thread and said so.

More people are killed by the guns they own to protect themselves than are people killed who are acting in self-defense. I would never own a gun, for any reason, at any time, ever, nor have I ever allowed them in my home.

If I was living with an abusive *person, I would leave them as soon as they demonstrated any form of abuse whatsoever*. I realize this is a difficult decision for abused women to make, and I am only stating how I would respond to abuse. Other women have other criteria they believe in, and which are most assuredly as valid as my approach. For me, the bottom line is that I hope and preay abused women will leave their abusers as soon and as safely they can.

One of the things I don't think we've discussed here is the way abused women kill their abusers (when they feel they have to go that far) as their way of dealing with the abuse they're getting. There are enough examples of women going to prison because they waited to kill their abuser when he was helpless, for example, being sound alseep or passed out in a drunken stupor. At a time like that, a woman isn't in imminent danger, but she is in constant danger, except for the brief moments her abuser is unconscious enough to be able to perform abuse. Asleep or awake, an abuser is always capable of committing an abusive act. Who knows when the SOB will wake up or sober up enough to commit an abusive act?

*Abused women can easily end up in a constant state of fear and desire to get rid of their abusers. They often see that the only time they can act in self-defense is when their abuser can't abuse them. *

Many judges and juries don't understand this is an act of self-defense. We're too married to the idea that self-defense must happen when we are obviously in immediate danger. *All too often this doesn't apply to abused women. They have to get though that last bit of abuse and wait for a good time to kill their abusers, but they are still acting in self-defense. This makes perfectly good sense to me, and I am more than thoroughly disgusted by court systems that don't realize that the means of self-defense abused woman must turn to is very different than any other kind of self-defense.*

Many things in our societies that shore up domestic violence committed by men against women need a radical change. Understanding, acknowledging and legally validating the way women defend themselves as described above is one of the many changes we need.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Women are trained as children to accept abuse and to live in fear, they don't need an excuse; they certainly don't need anyone judging them.


I never was "trained" to accept abuse as I had two loving parents.

The same goes for many, many of my friends - no child should be "trained" to accept abuse - it is now called Child Abuse and anyone that does this is arrested and subject to jail time.

I don't know where you read or heard this ridicious statement that women are trained as children to accept abuse and to live in fear. Anyone that has had that type of childhood should seek out counseling and learn that NO ONE needs to live in fear from anyone anymore.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> ................
> One of the things I don't think we've discussed here is the way abused women kill their abusers (when they feel they have to go that far) as their way of dealing with the abuse they're getting. There are enough examples of women going to prison because they waited to kill their abuser when he was helpless, for example, being sound alseep or passed out in a drunken stupor. At a time like that, a woman isn't in imminent danger, but she is in constant danger, except for the brief moments her abuser is unconscious enough to be able to perform abuse. Asleep or awake, an abuser is always capable of committing an abusive act. Who knows when the SOB will wake up or sober up enough to commit an abusive act?
> .....................
> 
> Many things in our societies that shore up domestic violence committed by men against women need a radical change. Understanding, acknowledging and legally validating the way women defend themselves as described above is one of the many changes we need.


I understand what you are saying as I've been there. This is where the Battered Woman Defense is used as it takes into account the history of abuse, control methods, etc. until a woman is pushed to the edge and she resorts to killing her abuser.

I still remember watching The Burning Bed Movie while sitting in a Motel Room all by myself on a Training Seminar for my job. I sat there all alone crying my eyes out as this movie was almost like my life, but without the killing (by the Grace of God that granted me a moment of sanity).Every abused woman should see this movie.

We all are capable of murder if pushed far enough until our mind just snaps and we finally strike out at our abuser. Domestic Laws have become laws now trying to stop this. There are still plenty of women in jail right now before these laws were passed and the Battered Woman sysdrome was ever heard of.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

Juleen said:


> My mom was a very strong lady who told me to never never never accept any kind abuse from a man. She saw that I had an education (teaching) so I could support myself and my children. I am very very lucky to have a hubby who is awesome. Yes, sometimes we make stinkeye at each other and argue but physically and emotionally he has never mistreated me. I am blessed!


Your Mom was a very smart lady - I also told my two daughters, and all of my female grandchildren - "ALWAYS BE ABLE TO SUPPORT YOURSELF"!!!!! I told them that if they could support themselves, pay their rent, pay their own food, pay their own gas and electric bills, and buy themselves a car, they would never have to "depend" upon a man to support them. Then if the man of their dreams entered their life, and they wanted to build a life with them, they would be doing so for all the right reason - not financial. But, if the man turned out to be an abuser, they would always be able to leave and support themselves. ALL (the oldest ones)have gone toCollege and work at professional jobs. They all are happily married with daughters of their own and passing down the same advice that I gave them.

Back when I was young, if you were not married by the time you were 21, you were considered an "Old Maid" and no body wanted you - LOL. Women today have "come a long ways"!!!!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Joan Thelma said:


> Your Mom was a very smart lady - I also told my two daughters, and all of my female grandchildren - "ALWAYS BE ABLE TO SUPPORT YOURSELF"!!!!! I told them that if they could support themselves, pay their rent, pay their own food, pay their own gas and electric bills, and buy themselves a car, they would never have to "depend" upon a man to support them. Then if the man of their dreams entered their life, and they wanted to build a life with them, they would be doing so for all the right reason - not financial. But, if the man turned out to be an abuser, they would always be able to leave and support themselves. ALL (the oldest ones)have gone toCollege and work at professional jobs. They all are happily married with daughters of their own and passing down the same advice that I gave them.
> 
> Back when I was young, if you were not married by the time you were 21, you were considered an "Old Maid" and no body wanted you - LOL. Women today have "come a long ways"!!!!


Yes women have come a long ways and thank God for that. College was never talked about when I was growing up, just getting married and having a family. When I had kids of my own, it was not "if you go to college," it was always "when you go to college," and they both did. When my youngest daughter was in college, she was engaged to a guy that I did not like. He appeared to me to be too controlling and I always pointed these things out to my daughter. One day she told me he said "after they were married, all their money would go into his account and he would give her an allowance. I said "oh no you don't." We had a long discussion about that and other things and not long after, when talking to him on the phone,[he was at a different college] she suspected he had someone in the room with him and was being very evasive with his answers to her questions. Yes he was cheating on her and that was the end of him. I have many things to be grateful for and that is definitely one of them.


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## CaroleJS (Jun 2, 2011)

I had not known the reality of my parents private relationship until AFTER I was grown and had gone through my first divorce/domestic violence situation. It was a few years after this that I learned that my Dad had been abusing my Mom. He did not leave any visible marks on her. I learned from her after my Dad had died, that her reason for not leaving him was the fear of how to take care of 5 kids financially. My dad was a good financial provider for the family. He did NOT drink, nor did he do drugs. Guns were NOT involved either. He grew up seeing his own Dad physically abuse his mother. I saw my Mother with a black eye when I went to their home to visit. I did ask her what happened. She gave me the stereo typical answer. I later contacted my younger sister letting her know what happened to Mom. She contacted Mom after speaking with her husband. My sister lived 3 hrs away. She arranged for Mom to go stay with her and her husband. My dad killed himself a few months later after he had caused drama many times involving my brother, older sister and myself. My Mom is now 80 yrs old and doing well.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

CaroleJS said:


> I had not known the reality of my parents private relationship until AFTER I was grown and had gone through my first divorce/domestic violence situation. It was a few years after this that I learned that my Dad had been abusing my Mom. He did not leave any visible marks on her. I learned from her after my Dad had died, that her reason for not leaving him was the fear of how to take care of 5 kids financially. My dad was a good financial provider for the family. He did NOT drink, nor did he do drugs. Guns were NOT involved either. He grew up seeing his own Dad physically abuse his mother. I saw my Mother with a black eye when I went to their home to visit. I did ask her what happened. She gave me the stereo typical answer. I later contacted my younger sister letting her know what happened to Mom. She contacted Mom after speaking with her husband. My sister lived 3 hrs away. She arranged for Mom to go stay with her and her husband. My dad killed himself a few months later after he had caused drama many times involving my brother, older sister and myself. My Mom is now 80 yrs old and doing well.


Financial dependancy is the main reason why the majority of women elect to stay in an abusive relationship. That is why it is so important to have a Support System to rely on (family or close friends) or as a last resort - a Shelter for Abused Women.

In my case, I walked out with 3 children and an HS Dipolma - never worked in the 11 years of marriage. It took me 5 months to find a factory job working 3PM - 11PM to earn my own money to support us. During these 5 months, my Mom and Dad provided us with food and a roof over our heads.

This is another reason why women today are better educated than they were in my generation and no longer need to be financially dependent on anyone but themselves.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Joan Thelma said:


> I never was "trained" to accept abuse as I had two loving parents.
> 
> The same goes for many, many of my friends - no child should be "trained" to accept abuse - it is now called Child Abuse and anyone that does this is arrested and subject to jail time.
> 
> I don't know where you read or heard this ridicious statement that women are trained as children to accept abuse and to live in fear. Anyone that has had that type of childhood should seek out counseling and learn that NO ONE needs to live in fear from anyone anymore.


I think I learned it from having discourse with people who think it is appropriate to respond to a perfectly reasonable statement by calling it ridiculous. 
I learned it in the several years that I volunteered with women who were leaving battering situations and I learned it when I was working in a home for women who were learning to live as independent empowered women for the first time in their lives.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Joan Thelma said:


> Financial dependancy is the main reason why the majority of women elect to stay in an abusive relationship. That is why it is so important to have a Support System to rely on (family or close friends) or as a last resort - a Shelter for Abused Women.
> 
> In my case, I walked out with 3 children and an HS Dipolma - never worked in the 11 years of marriage. It took me 5 months to find a factory job working 3PM - 11PM to earn my own money to support us. During these 5 months, my Mom and Dad provided us with food and a roof over our heads.
> 
> This is another reason why women today are better educated than they were in my generation and no longer need to be financially dependent on anyone but themselves.


I wish that were true. I used to attend a group for women with degrees who were interested in changing careers or simply getting started in one. There were 8 in the group; three of them said that they had no access to the only bank account - husband would sign the checks and give them allowances, just enough to provide food and once in a while new clothes for the children. This kind of arrangement before was entirely foreign to me.

All 3 of those women were in the midst of getting divorced from their controlling husbands, and all three had been verbally abused for the greater part of their married lives. And all three had been coerced into being stay-at-home wives/mothers, so had gotten no work experience for at least ten, and in one case more than twenty, years.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I spoke with a lovely, intelligent woman who had been divorced from an abused marriage for many years. She admitted that her husband-at-the-time had agreed to counseling and to work on repairing their marriage. He didn't come home for dinner, and she and the children went to bed. (She was very angry, no call, no consideration.) He rolled in dead drunk at 3:00 AM. She had a gun for protection in the house and she pointed it at him and told him to leave and never come back. She said she was ashamed to admit that the only reason she didn't kill him is that the children were in the house.


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## Juleen (Jun 3, 2011)

I do NOT want to turn this into a have guns/want to abolish guns subject! Thus, this will be my last email about this subject. We all have our opinions and that's great! However, I will never get rid of my guns! One example: In noticed a man walking down the sidewalk one morning. Our "watch cat" growled and ran to hide: after all she is a watch cat not an attack cat and has a fend for yourself attitude after she warns me of trouble! Since she has never before growled at anyone walking down our sidewalk not even coyotes, I took great attention. What I saw was a man, he came up my sidewalk, knocked very quietly on the door, then a little louder, then loudly. AND, then he tried the door to see if he could get in--that's where I drew the line! I had a gun in my hands and will not be raped and beaten to death! I also had the door locked. He looked to see if anyone was watching and then tried the door again. About then, our neighbor yelled at him to leave which he did very rapidly. A week later I read in the newspaper that a man with the very same description in a nearby neighborhood repeated the same pattern except that woman did not have a gun nor did she have her doors locked. Luckily for her, the neighbor saw what was happening and called the police before he was able to rape her! She had her two young grandchildren with her who were emotionally traumatized. Those that commit crimes with a gun deserve a nice loooong stay in prison! I deserve and have the legal right to have a gun for protection. I respect your right to not have guns, please respect my right to have guns! I hereby leave this discussion and wish you all happy knitting!


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## CaroleJS (Jun 2, 2011)

Juleen said:


> I do NOT want to turn this into a have guns/want to abolish guns subject! Thus, this will be my last email about this subject. We all have our opinions and that's great! However, I will never get rid of my guns! One example: In noticed a man walking down the sidewalk one morning. Our "watch cat" growled and ran to hide: after all she is a watch cat not an attack cat and has a fend for yourself attitude after she warns me of trouble! Since she has never before growled at anyone walking down our sidewalk not even coyotes, I took great attention. What I saw was a man, he came up my sidewalk, knocked very quietly on the door, then a little louder, then loudly. AND, then he tried the door to see if he could get in--that's where I drew the line! I had a gun in my hands and will not be raped and beaten to death! I also had the door locked. He looked to see if anyone was watching and then tried the door again. About then, our neighbor yelled at him to leave which he did very rapidly. A week later I read in the newspaper that a man with the very same description in a nearby neighborhood repeated the same pattern except that woman did not have a gun nor did she have her doors locked. Luckily for her, the neighbor saw what was happening and called the police before he was able to rape her! She had her two young grandchildren with her who were emotionally traumatized. Those that commit crimes with a gun deserve a nice loooong stay in prison! I deserve and have the legal right to have a gun for protection. I respect your right to not have guns, please respect my right to have guns! I hereby leave this discussion and wish you all happy knitting!


Juleen, Your opinion is on the right track. After my interaction with the S.W.A.T. Team with my divorce aftermath, the Detective suggested I get a gun. I was told, "We can not be there when we are needed. You need to be able to protect yourself until we can be there." This was EXCELLENT Sound advise. It was also suggested to me to remove the tall shrubs that were blocking the view of my front door. This too I did. Only a fool doesn't follow good sound advise from a professional. I also got a dog that was a German Shepard mix to help my daughter and myself feel even safer in my home. When it came time for me to get some of my possessions from the police, the Sargent of Internal Affairs requested to meet me. I felt honored that he was asking to meet me. We did meet briefly.

The most valuable thing I learned in College was, "Know your resources and USE them."


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Joan Thelma said:


> Thank you for the compliment BUT Utica is NOT that friendly of a place to live! I was born and raised here and too old to pull up stakes now and move. My two sons live out of state, and only my oldest and youngest daughters live near-by.
> 
> Utica is a depressed city - all the businesses that paid liveable wages have left and there are few jobs left that pay more than minimum wage. Over 53% of the population is receiving Welfare Benefits and we have a high percentage of immigrants that do not speak English, and are also on full Welfare. Our taxes are high and only 31% of the population are paying the City, County, and School Taxes. I recently sold the family home I inherited so I would not have to pay the taxes on it (I also own my own home that I pay taxes on).
> 
> ...


Michigan is the same. With the loss of the auto industry, living wage jobs are mostly gone. Too few are able to pay taxes and the school systems are failing. Property taxes go up and up although property values are still way down. Our governor has been very busy giving tax breaks to his business buddies that got him elected, rather than to entice new businesses. To pay for this, he has raised taxes on everyone else and cut funds to the school districts. Without decent schools, who would want to move their businesses here? I hear the same sad state of affairs from friends in Pennsylvania also.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> weemansmum, I admire you greatly. The physical effects such as bruises disappear, the emotional and psychological effects last much longer and may never go away. You are a strong woman and a great mother. May you have happiness and peace in your life forever.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> I don't believe that anyone has a right to kill another, but, to each his own.


Exactly! No one has the right to break into your home and beat and rape and kill you. No one has the right kill you for your car or your purse on the street. No one has the right to grab a child off the street, rape and kill them....but these things happen every day in this country. So, I will agree that no one has the right to murder another, but everyone has a right to defend themselves.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

CaroleJS said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd9rQ5pu3m8#aid=P-16va8ff6c
> 
> The above I feel says it all. This is one of many songs I listened to on a daily routine to help build my self esteem and confidence to get out of the relationship I was in. It worked and I have recommended the songs I listened to to other women too. It helped them too.


"Hero" by Mariah Carey is very inspiring, but sadly, most victims of DV are so beaten down that they can only find their hero inside after they have been out of the abusive situation for awhile.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

I am so glad he passed out and you were able to outsmart him. I know of 2 different women who survived their husbands playing Russian roulette with a loaded gun to their heads. One of them actually went back to her husband after this. These guys could win Academy Awards.
It's hard to imagine anybody staying with someone who could even think of such a thing, let alone do it.



Joan Thelma said:


> My ex was a hunter and had 2 pistols along with a shotgun and rifle.One of these pistols was a 357 Magum!!! Anyone that knows anything about guns knows what a powerful gun this is. When I finally left, it was the week after Christmas. I also should mention that I was the one who paid all the bills and had control over the checkbook.
> 
> BEFORE Christmas, he had come home drunk in the middle of the night and woke me up from a sound sleep and made me get up and come out to the kitchen. I then sat down at the opposite end from where he was sitting. Then he started telling me how much he "loved" me and couldn't live without me and POINTED THE LOADED 357 AT ME saying he was going to kill me!!!!!! Talk about being scared - I was petrified.
> 
> ...


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

kathycam said:


> Exactly! No one has the right to break into your home and beat and rape and kill you. No one has the right kill you for your car or your purse on the street. No one has the right to grab a child off the street, rape and kill them....but these things happen every day in this country. So, I will agree that no one has the right to murder another, but everyone has a right to defend themselves.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Glad you're safe. Agreed.



Juleen said:


> I do NOT want to turn this into a have guns/want to abolish guns subject! Thus, this will be my last email about this subject. We all have our opinions and that's great! However, I will never get rid of my guns! One example: In noticed a man walking down the sidewalk one morning. Our "watch cat" growled and ran to hide: after all she is a watch cat not an attack cat and has a fend for yourself attitude after she warns me of trouble! Since she has never before growled at anyone walking down our sidewalk not even coyotes, I took great attention. What I saw was a man, he came up my sidewalk, knocked very quietly on the door, then a little louder, then loudly. AND, then he tried the door to see if he could get in--that's where I drew the line! I had a gun in my hands and will not be raped and beaten to death! I also had the door locked. He looked to see if anyone was watching and then tried the door again. About then, our neighbor yelled at him to leave which he did very rapidly. A week later I read in the newspaper that a man with the very same description in a nearby neighborhood repeated the same pattern except that woman did not have a gun nor did she have her doors locked. Luckily for her, the neighbor saw what was happening and called the police before he was able to rape her! She had her two young grandchildren with her who were emotionally traumatized. Those that commit crimes with a gun deserve a nice loooong stay in prison! I deserve and have the legal right to have a gun for protection. I respect your right to not have guns, please respect my right to have guns! I hereby leave this discussion and wish you all happy knitting!


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## Mitzi (May 8, 2011)

Someone said on here that they would never ever let anyone abuse them. I agree BUT, we haven't been in that situation. While we can't imagine putting up with such we really don't know what we would do. It's easy to say that but I have known a couple of girls raised in what I thought to be wonderful families, those girls ended up being in abused marriages and with all the support, still had a terrible time getting out. Things aren't always as them seem. I also know women who have been flirted with, touched etc by strangers and these women cowered. I and some of my friends can't imagine that either because we seem to send a message that says don't even think of it.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree 100%. It is a very complex issue that defies simple answers. Just look at how widespread it is. There are many divergent causes and effects. By better understanding, we will be able to provide better and more effective help.



Mitzi said:


> Someone said on here that they would never ever let anyone abuse them. I agree BUT, we haven't been in that situation. While we can't imagine putting up with such we really don't know what we would do. It's easy to say that but I have known a couple of girls raised in what I thought to be wonderful families, those girls ended up being in abused marriages and with all the support, still had a terrible time getting out. Things aren't always as them seem. I also know women who have been flirted with, touched etc by strangers and these women cowered. I and some of my friends can't imagine that either because we seem to send a message that says don't even think of it.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

damemary said:


> I agree 100%. It is a very complex issue that defies simple answers. Just look at how widespread it is. There are many divergent causes and effects. By better understanding, we will be able to provide better and more effective help.


I think I know ONE of the answers to curbinb donestic violence.

ALL boys from the age of 2 should be taught NEVER, NEVER to hit a girl for any reason. This is what I did to my sons, especially when they became the age that they started getting interested in girls. I told them that if a girl got them really mad, to walk away from the situation and never, never hit a girl for any reason. I told them that if they did, they would be hurting me to the core as I never wanted to see them grow up and become like there Dad (who they remembered hitting me and depised him). My oldest son had a hair triggered temper back in those days (inherited it from me-LOL) and he was the one I worried about.

He has been married 38 years and is the husband and father that I wish I had. His wife and 5 children, plus 6 grandchildren simly adore him. He told me that when he was younger and got angry, he would leave the house and go for a walk in the woods which always calmed him down (he is a big hunter). My younger son was more laid back and also never hit a woman in his 53 years.

Boys need to be taught it is NOT "macho" to control or abuse a woman for any reason when they are small children. I raised two sons as a Single Parent and both were stronger and bigger than me. The only way I "controlled" them was out of respect for me. They never once raised a hand or threaten me.

Respect begins in the home!!!!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Joan Thelma said:


> I think I know ONE of the answers to curbinb donestic violence.
> 
> ALL boys from the age of 2 should be taught NEVER, NEVER to hit a girl for any reason. This is what I did to my sons, especially when they became the age that they started getting interested in girls. I told them that if a girl got them really mad, to walk away from the situation and never, never hit a girl for any reason. I told them that if they did, they would be hurting me to the core as I never wanted to see them grow up and become like there Dad (who they remembered hitting me and depised him). My oldest son had a hair triggered temper back in those days (inherited it from me-LOL) and he was the one I worried about.
> 
> ...


AMEN!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> AMEN!


Top of the Mornin' to ya, Purl and I double the amen. Smart poster.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Top of the Mornin' to ya, Purl and I double the amen. Smart poster.


 Joan Thelma has given us all a lot to think about.

A Happy Purim to you and the entire Sloth family.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Joan Thelma has given us all a lot to think about.
> 
> A Happy Purim to you and the entire Sloth family.


Totally forgot about Purim. The same to you and to your posse. Thank Hera that Jews do not trick or treat today.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Totally forgot about Purim. The same to you and to your posse. Thank Hera that Jews do not trick or treat today.


NO, they just hand out enormous gifts of food without being asked.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> NO, they just hand out enormous gifts of food without being asked.


Yeah the MM basket ( Mishloach Manot) are the best part. I love the food that the Roosevelt Island Chabad sends to me. Lovely couple with a menagerie of kids but I go to their on Friday nites occasionally for a great Friday nite meal.

I wonder what the Domestic Violence rate is in those communities.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Mitzi said:


> Someone said on here that they would never ever let anyone abuse them. I agree BUT, we haven't been in that situation. While we can't imagine putting up with such we really don't know what we would do. It's easy to say that but I have known a couple of girls raised in what I thought to be wonderful families, those girls ended up being in abused marriages and with all the support, still had a terrible time getting out. Things aren't always as them seem. I also know women who have been flirted with, touched etc by strangers and these women cowered. I and some of my friends can't imagine that either because we seem to send a message that says don't even think of it.


I just joined his thread so have not read all the previous comments, but I agree wholeheartedly with this comment. I was in an abusive marriage for 34 years and am tired of having people judge ME because I "put up with it." It's a complicated dynamic and there are few easy answers, particularly when the partner is dangerous. Mine stalked me, isolated me from friends and family, and when I tried to get out would get physical. Most of the women killed by husbands/boyfriends are killed while IN THE ACT of trying to leave. I knew exactly what my husband was capable of - not just what he could or would do to me, but what he could/would do to anyone who helped me. I was terrified of him. When I tried to escape to a shelter, there was no room for me because I wasn't actually bleeding - there's an image of triage for you. People offered "help" but when it came right down to it, didn't really want to take on the danger that entailed. Please stop blaming the woman for failure to act. The blame rests with the abuser.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Yay! The Great Green made it here! How did you finally escape your marriage? I need a happy ending.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Yeah the MM basket ( Mishloach Manot) are the best part. I love the food that the Roosevelt Island Chabad sends to me. Lovely couple with a menagerie of kids but I go to their on Friday nites occasionally for a great Friday nite meal.
> 
> I wonder what the Domestic Violence rate is in those communities.


A lot worse than they'd like anyone to know, as is the child abuse rate. There are shelters in Rockland County where Yiddish is spoken because in some of those communities that's the language they speak.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

I had a wonderful windfall when my employer rewarded years of hard work with a windfall in the form of a $300,000 bonus. Long story. I had to share it with the ex, as Arizona is a community property state, but having the money gave me the ability to "hide out" and start a new life. My employer was also supportive and knew I was in danger so was on the lookout for the ex. I have been far more fortunate than many others.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Over time, the ex settled down, but I also had a gun and he knew it! Didn't stop him from various acts of viciousness or assaulting me a couple of times after I left. But, the ex is dead, I'm alive and happy. Seems fair.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> I had a wonderful windfall when my employer rewarded years of hard work with a windfall in the form of a $300,000 bonus. Long story. I had to share it with the ex, as Arizona is a community property state, but having the money gave me the ability to "hide out" and start a new life. My employer was also supportive and knew I was in danger so was on the lookout for the ex. I have been far more fortunate than many others.


She-it! $300,000? Are you kidding? What company did you work for? My New Green is like a Wall Street Wolf with that kind of bonus!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I just joined his thread so have not read all the previous comments, but I agree wholeheartedly with this comment. I was in an abusive marriage for 34 years and am tired of having people judge ME because I "put up with it." It's a complicated dynamic and there are few easy answers, particularly when the partner is dangerous. Mine stalked me, isolated me from friends and family, and when I tried to get out would get physical. Most of the women killed by husbands/boyfriends are killed while IN THE ACT of trying to leave. I knew exactly what my husband was capable of - not just what he could or would do to me, but what he could/would do to anyone who helped me. I was terrified of him. When I tried to escape to a shelter, there was no room for me because I wasn't actually bleeding - there's an image of triage for you. People offered "help" but when it came right down to it, didn't really want to take on the danger that entailed. Please stop blaming the woman for failure to act. The blame rests with the abuser.


Absolutely. They're very good at isolating their wives/partners to the point that there's nobody to ask for help. I admire you for not just putting up with it and managing to stay alive all that time but also holding on to the hope that you can get out, no matter how long it takes.

It must have been a terrible way to live, with the constant anxiety about what your husband might do. This could have left you depressed and unable to act (which is what keeps so many women in such relationships), but you had the strength to rise above it. Thank you for giving us the chance to see your success.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I had a wonderful windfall when my employer rewarded years of hard work with a windfall in the form of a $300,000 bonus. Long story. I had to share it with the ex, as Arizona is a community property state, but having the money gave me the ability to "hide out" and start a new life. My employer was also supportive and knew I was in danger so was on the lookout for the ex. I have been far more fortunate than many others.


There's a good solution: every abused woman should be granted $300,000 (though it's not fair to make her share it with her abuser)!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Amen.



DGreen said:


> I just joined his thread so have not read all the previous comments, but I agree wholeheartedly with this comment. I was in an abusive marriage for 34 years and am tired of having people judge ME because I "put up with it." It's a complicated dynamic and there are few easy answers, particularly when the partner is dangerous. Mine stalked me, isolated me from friends and family, and when I tried to get out would get physical. Most of the women killed by husbands/boyfriends are killed while IN THE ACT of trying to leave. I knew exactly what my husband was capable of - not just what he could or would do to me, but what he could/would do to anyone who helped me. I was terrified of him. When I tried to escape to a shelter, there was no room for me because I wasn't actually bleeding - there's an image of triage for you. People offered "help" but when it came right down to it, didn't really want to take on the danger that entailed. Please stop blaming the woman for failure to act. The blame rests with the abuser.


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## CaroleJS (Jun 2, 2011)

Joan Thelma said:


> I think I know ONE of the answers to curbinb donestic violence.
> 
> ALL boys from the age of 2 should be taught NEVER, NEVER to hit a girl for any reason. This is what I did to my sons, especially when they became the age that they started getting interested in girls. I told them that if a girl got them really mad, to walk away from the situation and never, never hit a girl for any reason. I told them that if they did, they would be hurting me to the core as I never wanted to see them grow up and become like there Dad (who they remembered hitting me and depised him). My oldest son had a hair triggered temper back in those days (inherited it from me-LOL) and he was the one I worried about.
> 
> ...


You are 100% correct. A lot of parents now are TOO lazy to put in the effort to raise their children correctly. Simple discipline starts as very small children.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Life is good. Enjoy. The witch is dead.



DGreen said:


> Over time, the ex settled down, but I also had a gun and he knew it! Didn't stop him from various acts of viciousness or assaulting me a couple of times after I left. But, the ex is dead, I'm alive and happy. Seems fair.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Before we break our backs from patting ourselves on it , let's consider:

> There are good caring parents who have done their best to 
instill values in their children, only to find the children 
didn't internalize what they were taught. 
> Beware the simple answer. This is part of the answer, but
 not all of it. IMHO


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Just want to say great job to all you ladies who have over come so much and most importantly have moved on to raise great children so that the cycle of abuse stops. I think that is one of the best things I have read in your stories. The fact that you got out of course, but that you made it stop with you. You are all awesome women.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> She-it! $300,000? Are you kidding? What company did you work for? My New Green is like a Wall Street Wolf with that kind of bonus!


Very small company in Arizona. There were only 10 shareholders and three staff members, the President, Vice President and me. I'll give you three guesses about who did most of the work - and the first two don't count. I was instrumental in negotiating sale of some assets, which netted the company a whopping $30 million and I was given 1%. And a 1% share of the company, which retains a huge amount of similar assets. It could be argued that I was paid for my work, so I sincerely appreciate the recognition and reward. Not all companies would be so selfless - even though it was miniscule in comparison to others' profit, it bought me my freedom. I'm forever grateful.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Absolutely. They're very good at isolating their wives/partners to the point that there's nobody to ask for help. I admire you for not just putting up with it and managing to stay alive all that time but also holding on to the hope that you can get out, no matter how long it takes.
> 
> It must have been a terrible way to live, with the constant anxiety about what your husband might do. This could have left you depressed and unable to act (which is what keeps so many women in such relationships), but you had the strength to rise above it. Thank you for giving us the chance to see your success.


It DID do all those things to me - I'm amazed I came out the other side with any piece of myself intact. I had to learn to ask, "What do I want?" for the first time in my life. And to be sure, I developed a visceral instinct for people with control issues. I avoid them like the plague, miserable SOB's that they are. You just keep breathing, somehow. Thank you for your words of support!


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Joan Thelma said:


> I think I know ONE of the answers to curbinb donestic violence.
> 
> ALL boys from the age of 2 should be taught NEVER, NEVER to hit a girl for any reason. This is what I did to my sons, especially when they became the age that they started getting interested in girls.  I told them that if a girl got them really mad, to walk away from the situation and never, never hit a girl for any reason. I told them that if they did, they would be hurting me to the core as I never wanted to see them grow up and become like there Dad (who they remembered hitting me and depised him). My oldest son had a hair triggered temper back in those days (inherited it from me-LOL) and he was the one I worried about.
> 
> ...


ALL children, not just boys,need to be taught not to hit others.


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## CaroleJS (Jun 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> It DID do all those things to me - I'm amazed I came out the other side with any piece of myself intact. I had to learn to ask, "What do I want?" for the first time in my life. And to be sure, I developed a visceral instinct for people with control issues. I avoid them like the plague, miserable SOB's that they are. You just keep breathing, somehow. Thank you for your words of support!


I too reflect back on what I went through and the steps I took and the different events since and think, "WOW". I did all that? It was a moment by moment survival with stages. I have had people believe that God was there helping me. I agree with them. I saw the doors he opened for me to walk through. Even with my second failed marriage, I can reflect back and I understand why this second marriage happened. The ironies that have happened since this divorce is amazing. I went from unemployed for over 4 yrs, to getting a job notification the SAME day my ex died. This feels so unreal, but true.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Lkholcomb said:


> ALL children, not just boys,need to be taught not to hit others.


But hitting isn't the only thing. So many people (not just men, by the way) have a twisted belief that they have the right to control others and will use words and manipulation to whatever degree necessary to get their way and to feel superior to other human beings. Doesn't take hitting - just the wrong mindset. My ex wasn't satisfied with constantly abusing me verbally, though he rarely used his fists. He only used them often enough to make sure I remembered that he would. The verbal abuse was by far the worst, so teaching boys simply not to hit girls isn't enough. They must be taught to respect women. And our girls must NOT be taught to be manipulative and abusive, either. I've seen plenty of that, too.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put.



NJG said:


> Just want to say great job to all you ladies who have over come so much and most importantly have moved on to raise great children so that the cycle of abuse stops. I think that is one of the best things I have read in your stories. The fact that you got out of course, but that you made it stop with you. You are all awesome women.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

CaroleJS said:


> I too reflect back on what I went through and the steps I took and the different events since and think, "WOW". I did all that? It was a moment by moment survival with stages. I have had people believe that God was there helping me. I agree with them. I saw the doors he opened for me to walk through. Even with my second failed marriage, I can reflect back and I understand why this second marriage happened. The ironies that have happened since this divorce is amazing. I went from unemployed for over 4 yrs, to getting a job notification the SAME day my ex died. This feels so unreal, but true.


Good for you, Lady. So glad that horrible 4 years ended positively. Funny, I attended my ex's funeral - primarily to be there for my children - and was astonished to find myself crying uncontrollably. I hated the man. I guess I was finally able to let go and release the rage and hurt and in a way, grieve for his miserable life. He could have done so many good things, but chose to spread hurt. That deserves some tears.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm glad it's brought you peace of mind.



DGreen said:


> Very small company in Arizona. There were only 10 shareholders and three staff members, the President, Vice President and me. I'll give you three guesses about who did most of the work - and the first two don't count. I was instrumental in negotiating sale of some assets, which netted the company a whopping $30 million and I was given 1%. And a 1% share of the company, which retains a huge amount of similar assets. It could be argued that I was paid for my work, so I sincerely appreciate the recognition and reward. Not all companies would be so selfless - even though it was miniscule in comparison to others' profit, it bought me my freedom. I'm forever grateful.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'd include teaching not to spank.



Lkholcomb said:


> ALL children, not just boys,need to be taught not to hit others.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Me too!



damemary said:


> I'm glad it's brought you peace of mind.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

DGreen said:


> But hitting isn't the only thing. So many people (not just men, by the way) have a twisted belief that they have the right to control others and will use words and manipulation to whatever degree necessary to get their way and to feel superior to other human beings. Doesn't take hitting - just the wrong mindset. My ex wasn't satisfied with constantly abusing me verbally, though he rarely used his fists. He only used them often enough to make sure I remembered that he would. The verbal abuse was by far the worst, so teaching boys simply not to hit girls isn't enough. They must be taught to respect women. And our girls must NOT be taught to be manipulative and abusive, either. I've seen plenty of that, too.


You are very right. I was just responding to the part of the post that said about teaching boys not to hit. I probably should have expanded 

I don't allow my kids to have a disrespectful attitude toward anybody. It doesn't matter if it is me, their dad, or a "bum" on the street. Isn't acceptable..... period.

I am particular sensitive toward this because of a family member, close family member, who was controlled and emotionally and verbally abused by her son. She was living independently but he isolated her even more. Nobody even knew that it was happening, we all just thought he has "asshole syndrome" (because he always acted that way toward everybody else). Even her really good friends didn't know (we were close family and didn't know). He controlled her, even what tv program to watch, when to go to bed, and he stole money from her by manipulation. When we found out it was because she had asked me to look at financial things because she was having a hard time paying her bills and needed help with the budget. Then it slowly came out more and more how much money she was giving him, loans she was co-signing (that he never paid on), and other controlling behaviors. Through much support she was able to see a therapist and through help from us see the manipulative web he had laid down. Even though he was never physically violent (she was asked several times and each time said no), he had her petrified that he WOULD be physically violent. She has since moved, he doesn't know where she lives, he only has an email address for contact.

One thing that hasn't been addressed here is abuse toward parents. And I don't mean just elderly parents either. This particular person had mental illness issues and was put in a home for a bit (what they called a "half-way house"). He would lie to them their to manipulate his parents, because he was "telling on them". But on top of that he learned the "tricks" that people manipulate with. I have been in a program for mental illness (to deal with my sever PTSD) so I know that the patients trade tricks on how to manipulate. Some of it is because the rules are so strict that they need to know how to "keep the person off their back" (like they didn't allow naps so the patients just told us to lie!) But if you put a controlling person and abusive person in with that then they learn how to use manipulation techniques to abuse.

For so long in our system the blame is put on the parents if the kid "didn't turn out right' as a teenager. So parents have been downright scared to say that their child is abusing them, even if they are getting beaten! But this seriously needs to be addressed in our society and the stigma taken off parents if they have a child who does abuse them.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Thank you for that helpful information.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

I might be critized by a few about what I'm going to say BUT here goes!

Another "value" lesson I believe children should be exposed to while growing up to become adults is a strong religious faith.
My children all went to Sunday School where for an hour they were taught stories about sections of the Bible. When they became Teenagers, they were active members of the Church's Youth Meetings and activities. Christian churches teach the 10 Commandments, and our Minister always included good values, compassion for others, etc. in his sermons. Combine this with good parenting, and it certainly helps children to grow up knowing right from wrong.

Another thing I did was I turned my home into a Teen Center hangout in the evenings. Instead of roaming the streets, my children brought their friends home where they had dinner with us and sit around later just talking and playing cards or games together. This served two purposes - I knew where my kids were in the evenings, plus I got to know the type of kids they were hanging with which is so important to keep them from getting involved with kids that you don't approve of.

None of my 4 children ever got arrested for anything, stayed away from the drug influence, and had a few beers now and then but never drank enough to get "drunk" and still don't. Again, this also was taught by example as no one on my side of the family ever drank to excess and none of us ever did drugs.

Today, they are 60, 58, 53, and 45 - too "old" now to even think about getting into trouble - LOL!!!!


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Good for you, Lady. So glad that horrible 4 years ended positively. Funny, I attended my ex's funeral - primarily to be there for my children - and was astonished to find myself crying uncontrollably. I hated the man. I guess I was finally able to let go and release the rage and hurt and in a way, grieve for his miserable life. He could have done so many good things, but chose to spread hurt. That deserves some tears.


I also attended my ex's Memorial Funeral (he had committed suicide and had been cremated) only because my children wanted me there. No one else came forward to conduct this Memorial so my children felt it was their "duty" to do so. He was 9 months behind on his rent, all his credit cards had been maxed out, all his "friends" were his drinking buddies who only care about him when he was buying them drinks, and it was my two sons that had to dispose of his ashes (they were scatter in the woods where he use to hunt). His side of the family had long ago washed their hands of him and never showed up. I did NOT cry but I felt pity for a man who died at a fairly young 60 who had so much potential that he never used. What a waste of life.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

damemary said:


> I'd include teaching not to spank.


Amen!


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Juleen said:


> I do NOT want to turn this into a have guns/want to abolish guns subject! Thus, this will be my last email about this subject. We all have our opinions and that's great! However, I will never get rid of my guns! One example: In noticed a man walking down the sidewalk one morning. Our "watch cat" growled and ran to hide: after all she is a watch cat not an attack cat and has a fend for yourself attitude after she warns me of trouble! Since she has never before growled at anyone walking down our sidewalk not even coyotes, I took great attention. What I saw was a man, he came up my sidewalk, knocked very quietly on the door, then a little louder, then loudly. AND, then he tried the door to see if he could get in--that's where I drew the line! I had a gun in my hands and will not be raped and beaten to death! I also had the door locked. He looked to see if anyone was watching and then tried the door again. About then, our neighbor yelled at him to leave which he did very rapidly. A week later I read in the newspaper that a man with the very same description in a nearby neighborhood repeated the same pattern except that woman did not have a gun nor did she have her doors locked. Luckily for her, the neighbor saw what was happening and called the police before he was able to rape her! She had her two young grandchildren with her who were emotionally traumatized. Those that commit crimes with a gun deserve a nice loooong stay in prison! I deserve and have the legal right to have a gun for protection. I respect your right to not have guns, please respect my right to have guns! I hereby leave this discussion and wish you all happy knitting!


I know she has unwatched the subject, I wish I had thought to ask just who has asked/told her to get rid of her guns.


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## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

Good for you Joan;
if I woke up to find a male in my bedroom I would assume he was not there for tea and bikkies and would react to remove the threat. "I'm worth it".Years ago I cycled half of New Zealand alone, and prepared myself mentally, for violent sexual opportunists. The biggest threat was other females trying to destroy my self-confidence, but although I returned less paranoid about men, there were incidents that enraged me. Mainly their assumption that they had a right to my time. Professional men had the worst sense of entitlement - creeps. Alcohol-fueled males to be strictly avoided too.


Joan Thelma said:


> All of your questions are very valid, and they are the ones anyone in law enforcement ask. Let me answer each one:
> 1)Yes, I an positive that if someone should break into my home in the middle of the night, or when I'm awake, I definitely know if they should be there - or not.
> 
> 2)This is the tough one - I have already been told by LE that once you point a gun at someone, you better be prepared to use it or they will take it away from you and use it on you! I would tell the intruder that I have a shotgun and intend to use it if he came any closer to me. If he ignores the warning, and starts coming towards me - I shoot!
> ...


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

omnivore2 said:


> Good for you Joan;
> if I woke up to find a male in my bedroom I would assume he was not there for tea and bikkies and would react to remove the threat. "I'm worth it".Years ago I cycled half of New Zealand alone, and prepared myself mentally, for violent sexual opportunists. The biggest threat was other females trying to destroy my self-confidence, but although I returned less paranoid about men, there were incidents that enraged me. Mainly their assumption that they had a right to my time. Professional men had the worst sense of entitlement - creeps. Alcohol-fueled males to be strictly avoided too.


Can I ask please, what are bikkies? I'm from the US, so I don't know and it sounds interesting.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> Can I ask please, what are bikkies? I'm from the US, so I don't know and it sounds interesting.


Biscuits, what we call cookies. Such a quaint language.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Biscuits, what we call cookies. Such a quaint language.


Thank you  . It's always interesting to learn the different expressions.


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## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

Biscuit,j from the French bis-quit, meaning twice-baked. But they aren't really, except for some such as biscotti (?)


Poor Purl said:


> Biscuits, what we call cookies. Such a quaint language.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

omnivore2 said:


> Biscuit,j from the French bis-quit, meaning twice-baked. But they aren't really, except for some such as biscotti (?)


In the US, biscuits are soft doughy items, not what they are in England (I've never been to Australia) or Italy. Thanks for the etymology - I never connected the "bis" with "twice."


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## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

Excuse; mean bis-cuit. What you call biscuits might be our scones or pikelets


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

omnivore2 said:


> Excuse; mean bis-cuit. What you call biscuits might be our scones or pikelets


I've had scones; they have more taste and substance than our biscuits. I thought pikelets were little fish.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Our biscuits are in a class by themselves, light and airy inside with a chewy, buttery outside, with butter, jelly, jam or honey. 
Or gravy.



Poor Purl said:


> I've had scones; they have more taste and substance than our biscuits. I thought pikelets were little fish.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

damemary said:


> Our biscuits are in a class by themselves, light and airy inside with a chewy, buttery outside, with butter, jelly, jam or honey.
> Or gravy.


Combine them with fried chicken and cream gravy, you have a meal from Heaven!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Joan Thelma said:


> Combine them with fried chicken and cream gravy, you have a meal from Heaven!


I've never had a decent biscuit. Do you have a favorite recipe?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Our biscuits are in a class by themselves, light and airy inside with a chewy, buttery outside, with butter, jelly, jam or honey.
> Or gravy.


Or you - a good biscuit recipe?


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I've never had a decent biscuit. Do you have a favorite recipe?


I just use the receipe on the back of the Bisquick Baking Mix (I'm lazy)

My Mom who was born and raised in North Carolina, passed away in 2003, use to make good old Southern Fried Children every Sunday for the Family Meal - home made bisquits (done by hand), fried chicken, white cream gravy, and cabbage salad (like cold slaw without tne carrots) - that was the most delicious meal I've ever eaten in my entire life. This meal was probably not preferred by Heart Doctors, but it sure tasted good!!!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Joan Thelma said:


> I just use the receipe on the back of the Bisquick Baking Mix (I'm lazy)
> 
> My Mom who was born and raised in North Carolina, passed away in 2003, use to make good old Southern Fried Children every Sunday for the Family Meal - home made bisquits (done by hand), fried chicken, white cream gravy, and cabbage salad (like cold slaw without tne carrots) - that was the most delicious meal I've ever eaten in my entire life. This meal was probably not preferred by Heart Doctors, but it sure tasted good!!!


Nothing wrong with cabbage. The other stuff was just side dishes.

I guess I'll have to search on my own. I don't use mixes. But I do know a knock-knock joke about Bisquick.

Knock knock. Who's there? Bisquick. Bisquick who? Bis quick, your pants are on fire.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I've eaten them but never made them. I guess I'm intimidated. There has to be help out there.



Poor Purl said:


> I've never had a decent biscuit. Do you have a favorite recipe?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The Bisquick Baking mix is great for strawberry shortcake. Bisquit top covered with melted butter and a bit of sugar. biscuits broken open covered with fresh strawberries and whipped cream. I'm hungry and vegetable soup ain't gonna do it.



Joan Thelma said:


> I just use the receipe on the back of the Bisquick Baking Mix (I'm lazy)
> 
> My Mom who was born and raised in North Carolina, passed away in 2003, use to make good old Southern Fried Children every Sunday for the Family Meal - home made bisquits (done by hand), fried chicken, white cream gravy, and cabbage salad (like cold slaw without tne carrots) - that was the most delicious meal I've ever eaten in my entire life. This meal was probably not preferred by Heart Doctors, but it sure tasted good!!!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Nothing wrong with cabbage. The other stuff was just side dishes.
> 
> I guess I'll have to search on my own. I don't use mixes. But I do know a knock-knock joke about Bisquick.
> 
> Knock knock. Who's there? Bisquick. Bisquick who? Bis quick, your pants are on fire.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Knock. Knock. Who's there? Jamaica. Jamaica who? Ja makin me crazy.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I must confess. I love puns and knock knock jokes.....and good food. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Knock. Knock. Who's there? Jamaica. Jamaica who? Ja makin me crazy.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I must confess. I love puns and knock knock jokes.....and good food. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


That explains so much.


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## Mitzi (May 8, 2011)

Best bisquick biscuits. Use amount suggested in recipe on box but substitute sour cream with 1 T milk instead of just milk. So good everyone will want your recipe


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Mitzi said:


> Best bisquick biscuits. Use amount suggested in recipe on box but substitute sour cream with 1 T milk instead of just milk. So good everyone will want your recipe


 Thanks, Mitzi, but it's time to get back on topic.

If your husband forces you to bake biscuits every day, *from scratch*, and eats them all himself, does that constitute abuse? And are you defending yourself if you make them with butter so that his cholesterol count goes up?


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## Mitzi (May 8, 2011)

I agree, back to topic. I used to have quite the argument with friends that it was NOT ok to have an attitude that boys will be boys when little boys would flip up little girls skirts at school on the playground. I say that leads to them becoming big boys and thinking it's ok, she wanted it anyway. I also argued that teenage boys (and girls) should NOT be allowed to hang pinup posters in their rooms/ That sends a very bad message. Luckily my husband agreed with me and respect for the opposite sex was taught early on.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Hey, we're on topic here. It's food or domestic violence.



Poor Purl said:


> Thanks, Mitzi, but it's time to get back on topic.
> 
> If your husband forces you to bake biscuits every day, *from scratch*, and eats them all himself, does that constitute abuse? And are you defending yourself if you make them with butter so that his cholesterol count goes up?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> There's a facet to the war on women that we've never discussed in the thread of that name: domestic violence, the brunt of which is borne almost entirely by women....


Magnificent post, Purl, and thanks so much for the invitation. I've read just the first page of this thread so far and I'm blown away. I so love the company of strong women.

I want to read the whole thing, carefully. But I'll have to take it in bits and pieces. I was never in an abusive relationship, nor were my parents, but for some reason this subject -- and all violence against women -- is a particular hot button for me.

The one thing I want to mention at this point, though hopefully it's already been covered at length and repeatedly, is the fact that the answer to the question, "How can this still go on" and "why don't perps get the long sentences when if the women kill in self defense they're the ones who are imprisoned for longer?" and all the rest is --

Because we, as women, are so devalued. I think it was Gloria Steinem who once defined or just repeated the definition of feminism as "the novel notion that women are people."

Now, that is self-evident, I think: that we are devalued, "less than," not as important as, etc. What seems less self-evident are all the behaviors that keep that screwed up "reality" firmly in place, and there's a huge list of them -- too long to ever cite them all here.

But, let me mention two that are near and dear to my heart, and which I see entirely too much of, some of it here even.

One is the use of gender slurs and other gender-based denigration in the form of what many people believe are unimportant "little" things like dumb blond jokes and the like.

Believe me, words like "bitch," "slut," "the c-word" and any and all others are incredibly harmful, and should NEVER be used. By anyone. For sure NO WOMAN should use them against any other woman, no matter what, no matter what horrible things said bad female person may have done. There are ALWAYS specific things to criticize any woman for, so resorting to insults are gender-specific is as unnecessary as it is harmful to ALL women. Most of us would never consider using a racial slurs against someone we wanted to insult or criticize, we shouldn't use gender slurs either, for the same reason.

Because you can darned well take it to the bank that most of the women who are being punched, kicked, beaten and killed hear themselves called "bitch," "c-word," "slut" and so forth as the violence is in progress. It is BECAUSE we are worth so much less as women -- and thus "earn" those gender slurs -- that we can also deserve to be beaten, raped and killed.

Gender slurs and even apparently "benign" woman-bashing jokes help perpetuate our second-class, "worth less" status. Making those words *inappropriate for polite discourse* WILL help raise the status of women especially if combined with other efforts.

The other thing that I'm utterly convinced is utterly and completely deleterious to women is pornography and prostitution. That doesn't mean I'm in favor of making porn illegal -- which I think would not work at all -- but rather educating people so that members of both sexes understand how harmful it is for women and even for the mostly men who consume either porn or paid sex.

If you think about it, it's quite an effective system we've got here, this patriarchy thing: we create a society in which some of our female children become so abused and damaged that they become fodder for the sex industry, which then helps create even more victims. Clever, huh?

We are now in a situation where an incredible amount of our media and entertainment have become "pornified." If you doubt it, the "slide show" here of Miley Cyrus on a very recent performance will probably convince you: 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/10/miley-cyrus-underwear_n_4933883.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

I'm dismayed by such a performance, and what our children and young women are "learning" from it. There SHOULD BE NO REASON for that kind of spectacle. She should be able (and willing) to compete on the basis of her voice and talent alone. Can you think of any men who have EVER performed or been expected to perform in that way in order to be a pop star? Of course not.

She didn't invent exploitation and isn't the first to willingly, even eagerly comply and she won't be the last. But it's hard to envision a longterm career for her under such circumstances, isn't it??

In any case, here's a quote from someone on a different discussion forum that I thought expressed very well my own concerns about Miley Cyrus and ALL the over-sexualization of our young women (and men):



> But the youth ... the young, young women of the texting, tweeting, twerking world -- seem to be terribly confused. They have conflated self-expression with self-exploitation. They demean themselves as they eagerly attempt to outdo each other in how "sexy" they can dress or how willing they are to accommodate ... If Miley Cyrus is nude in a music video, then they seem to sense that society -- or their "electronic society" -- requires them to express even more nudity. Gender equality is the prevalent rhetoric, but the actions of many contradict that ideal. How can there be gender equality if one gender has no self-respect?


Worth repeating: *How can there be gender equality if one gender has no self-respect?* Indeed.

Frankly, in my book Miley not only demeans herself, her self-humiliation is so complete she actually demeans sex as well.

I think it's hard for a woman of any age to go out into society where this kind of thing is how woman can be treated, how they can -- and do -- treat themselves, and eagerly allow themselves to be exploited. This is NOT empowerment, and it for darned sure isn't equality.

She's a piece of meat, just one of all the other pieces of meat known as women. Nothing will truly change, IMO, until these dynamics start to change.

And it wouldn't hurt if we were to make some gains in dismaling the rape culture we live in either:

100 serial rapists identified after Detroit finally processes just 1600 of its 11,000 untested rape kits
http://feministing.com/2014/03/17/100-serial-rapists-identified-after-detroit-finally-processes-untested-rape-kits/

So, you can see why I am only going to be able to read this thread in bits and pieces. I salute all the brave, wonderful women who have overcome these debilitating circumstances, and those who recognize the peril and stand by for others.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree, but that 's a tough sell in our culture with sleeze everywhere. I'm a grandmother who's no prude but I find myself grossed out.



Mitzi said:


> I agree, back to topic. I used to have quite the argument with friends that it was NOT ok to have an attitude that boys will be boys when little boys would flip up little girls skirts at school on the playground. I say that leads to them becoming big boys and thinking it's ok, she wanted it anyway. I also argued that teenage boys (and girls) should NOT be allowed to hang pinup posters in their rooms/ That sends a very bad message. Luckily my husband agreed with me and respect for the opposite sex was taught early on.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Mitzi said:


> I agree, back to topic. I used to have quite the argument with friends that it was NOT ok to have an attitude that boys will be boys when little boys would flip up little girls skirts at school on the playground. I say that leads to them becoming big boys and thinking it's ok, she wanted it anyway. I also argued that teenage boys (and girls) should NOT be allowed to hang pinup posters in their rooms/ That sends a very bad message. Luckily my husband agreed with me and respect for the opposite sex was taught early on.


I agree. Little boys are taught by their Dads and the men around them how to act when they become big boys.


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I've never had a decent biscuit. Do you have a favorite recipe?


That's because there aren't any. I could never quite understand why people loved those baking soda flavored bits of dough. Yuck.

But they do. Go figure.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Excellent information. I also think you will be gratified to read this thread. Welcome.



Knitry said:


> Worth repeating: *How can there be gender equality if one gender has no self-respect?* Indeed.
> 
> Frankly, in my book Miley not only demeans herself, her self-humiliation is so complete she actually demeans sex as well.
> 
> ...


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## Mitzi (May 8, 2011)

I have never gone to rock concerts nor allowed my children to when they were still young enough I could allow or not. That said, YES, Male rock stars do and have often done things like Miley Cyris did. I've unfortunately seen it replayed on the news or in newspapers even when I'm not looking for such junk. I see it as the entertaiment industry, not just female.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh, I get it. They just discovered sex.



Mitzi said:


> I have never gone to rock concerts nor allowed my children to when they were still young enough I could allow or not. That said, YES, Male rock stars do and have often done things like Miley Cyris did. I've unfortunately seen it replayed on the news or in newspapers even when I'm not looking for such junk. I see it as the entertaiment industry, not just female.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Mitzi said:


> I agree, back to topic. I used to have quite the argument with friends that it was NOT ok to have an attitude that boys will be boys when little boys would flip up little girls skirts at school on the playground. I say that leads to them becoming big boys and thinking it's ok, she wanted it anyway. I also argued that teenage boys (and girls) should NOT be allowed to hang pinup posters in their rooms/ That sends a very bad message. Luckily my husband agreed with me and respect for the opposite sex was taught early on.


I never thought of those, but they clearly lead to lack of respect. Good for you, and good for your husband.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Hey, we're on topic here. It's food or domestic violence.
> 
> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


I stand corrected.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Knitry said:


> Worth repeating: *How can there be gender equality if one gender has no self-respect?* Indeed.
> 
> Frankly, in my book Miley not only demeans herself, her self-humiliation is so complete she actually demeans sex as well.
> 
> ...


A lot to process there, Knitry, thank you for that link.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

damemary said:


> I agree, but that 's a tough sell in our culture with sleeze everywhere. I'm a grandmother who's no prude but I find myself grossed out.


I also agree with you.

Why do some of these "pop" singers" think they have to wear such scanty articles of clothing in order to get someone to notice them and their body - rather than listen to their singing ability?

I always taught my girls and my Grandaughters 'Dress and act like a lady and you will be treated as one. Act like a slut and dress like one, that is exactly how you will be treated'.

Imo - self worth is the answer and this is something young girls should have instilled in them from an early age.

Parents need to go back to the old fashion way of rearing children - THEY are in charge and quit trying to be "friends" with your children. You become "friends" with them once they turn 21 and, hopefully, have learned from your parenting examples and words. Worked for me.

I might add, my GD has been visiting me for the past 9 days - she simply doesn't want to return to New Hampshire - LOL!!!!


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Joan Thelma said:


> I also agree with you.
> 
> Why do some of these "pop" singers" think they have to wear such scanty articles of clothing in order to get someone to notice them and their body - rather than listen to their singing ability?
> 
> ...


Lucky you, to have your granddaughter so happy to be with you in NY state.

I have so many thoughts about this that I may very well contradict myself or at least put forward more than one perspective as I type.

I admit that I don't see LOTS of adults interacting with their children for extended periods of time. When I do they are not trying to be friends they are trying to keep the children occupied in order to have some free time for themselves. 
That seems to me to be the reason for so much involvement with electronics. The kids are busy and the parents can breathe.

For anyone who has seen those "feedthepig.org" commercials it seems like the scenes depicted there. Consume, consume, consume and avoid looking at the hole that puts your family in.

Why are children not taught from the time soon after they reach school age that the folks they see on TV are playing a part? Why are we expecting or allowing a Miley Cyrus or a Britney Spears or a Christina Aguilera to impact how our children view females? Why are we not sitting with them and talking to them about the goings on? When we see little ones in a cast on a television show being fresh why are we not pointing that out to children? 
And it is not just women who are portrayed badly, think of the way men are portrayed on shows.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Joan Thelma said:


> I also agree with you.
> 
> Why do some of these "pop" singers" think they have to wear such scanty articles of clothing in order to get someone to notice them and their body - rather than listen to their singing ability?
> 
> ...


And I missed this one prompted by you question... why are people buying such trashy looking outfits for their children?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> And I missed this one prompted by you question... why are people buying such trashy looking outfits for their children?


And they _are_ buying them, and buying stripper poles for little girls to learn dancing on; 4- and 5-year-olds are encouraged to dance in very suggestive ways. I can think of few things worse than dressing up a toddler so that she looks like a hooker. It's not good for her to think that's how girls, and eventually women, should dress, and the attention she'll get from strange men isn't good for her, either, and could be dangerous.

I agree with Mitzi, that a lot of it stems from the entertainment they and their parents see. Somehow, what used to be a leisure activity - entertainment - has taken precedence over all other things kids do, or used to do. Before TV, kids would spend time watching Mom, or whatever caretaker they had, do her work and learn from her what real women are like and what we can do. Now they learn from celebrities, and they often expect to become celebrities, instead of finding what they're best at.

I think I've depressed myself enough to stop here. To me this seems insurmountable.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> And they _are_ buying them, and buying stripper poles for little girls to learn dancing on; 4- and 5-year-olds are encouraged to dance in very suggestive ways. I can think of few things worse than dressing up a toddler so that she looks like a hooker. It's not good for her to think that's how girls, and eventually women, should dress, and the attention she'll get from strange men isn't good for her, either, and could be dangerous.
> 
> I agree with Mitzi, that a lot of it stems from the entertainment they and their parents see. Somehow, what used to be a leisure activity - entertainment - has taken precedence over all other things kids do, or used to do. Before TV, kids would spend time watching Mom, or whatever caretaker they had, do her work and learn from her what real women are like and what we can do. Now they learn from celebrities, and they often expect to become celebrities, instead of finding what they're best at.
> 
> I think I've depressed myself enough to stop here. To me this seems insurmountable.


The pendulum swings, my Empress, you must be tired from all that rabble rousing yesterday. 
I know that is the case as there you are with that "somehow", it isn't somehow it is parents giving up their parenting role to the electronics. To share some time in front of the tube is one thing, it is an opportunity to talk, to educate, and to join together as a family. 
To plunk the kids in front of the boob tube or a tablet so that the parent is able to entertain him/herself rather than do their job of teaching the child values is an abdication of duty. 
The thing that I don't understand is why have children if you can't be bothered to raise them, decades ago people had no choice.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitry said:


> Worth repeating: *How can there be gender equality if one gender has no self-respect?* Indeed.
> 
> Frankly, in my book Miley not only demeans herself, her self-humiliation is so complete she actually demeans sex as well.
> 
> ...


Knitry, your message is full of things that will take time to digest. Thanks for bringing them up. One question that has come up several times is how a woman from a safe home, raised by her parents to be independent, can end up living with an abuser and unable to get out of the relationship. A lot, I believe, has to do with how she's socialized outside of the home. Parents can do only so much to counteract social pressure.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> The pendulum swings, my Empress, you must be tired from all that rabble rousing yesterday.
> I know that is the case as there you are with that "somehow", it isn't somehow it is parents giving up their parenting role to the electronics. To share some time in front of the tube is one thing, it is an opportunity to talk, to educate, and to join together as a family.
> To plunk the kids in front of the boob tube or a tablet so that the parent is able to entertain him/herself rather than do their job of teaching the child values is an abdication of duty.
> The thing that I don't understand is why have children if you can't be bothered to raise them, decades ago people had no choice.


Oh, it's easy to see why parents take advantage of electronic babysitters; my "somehow" was about American society as opposed to those other countries. I don't think young people in other developed countries are as consumed with entertainment as they are in the US.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Knitry, your message is full of things that will take time to digest. Thanks for bringing them up. One question that has come up several times is how a woman from a safe home, raised by her parents to be independent, can end up living with an abuser and unable to get out of the relationship. A lot, I believe, has to do with how she's socialized outside of the home. Parents can do only so much to counteract social pressure.


And I have to ask, who says that was a safe home?
It appeared to be safe...And, yes, of course outside influences and genetics have an impact on exhibited behaviors. 
The study of human behaviors and the causes are much too new to think that we will have more than rudimentary answers in our lifetimes. 
It just isn't profitable enough to expand by more than baby steps each decade. 
Almost 40 years to figure out that autism isn't the fault of an uncaring mother...


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> And I have to ask, who says that was a safe home?
> It appeared to be safe...And, yes, of course outside influences and genetics have an impact on exhibited behaviors.
> The study of human behaviors and the causes are much too new to think that we will have more than rudimentary answers in our lifetimes.
> It just isn't profitable enough to expand by more than baby steps each decade.
> Almost 40 years to figure out that autism isn't the fault of an uncaring mother...


But that's because nobody thought to pose the question to a large group of knitters and crocheters.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> But that's because nobody thought to pose the question to a large group of knitters and crocheters.


Or because 40 years ago nobody knew a family with an autistic member and now everyone does?


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

More on the subject. This evening on channel HLN, 7 p.m. (Eastern Daylight time), there will be a program on "The War On Women". From the previews, it seems this will be will be very explicit and probably very disturbing, especially for survivors of DV. It will be showing for one hour before the Nancy Grace program, which may also be on the same topic.

I believe the term "war on women" was first coined by the first President Bush, more than 20 years ago. I would like to find out if any progress has been made in this war, but I'm not sure if I will be able to watch it...maybe with a glass of wine. I'm trying to work myself up for it.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

Child rearing back in the 50s and 60s were a lot more tougher than today's parents experience despite all the conveniences they have that were not available during the times I brought my children up.

The majority of us did not use disposable diapers (considered to be a lazy mom if you did). Instead we used a smelling diaper pail, washed all the soiled diapers, and hung then out to dry (even during the ise & cold Winter months).

We bought basic baby food and cereal - NOT all the pre-toddlers food, snacks, etc. available today. Many of us breastfed our children (very few today can be bothered doing this).

Car seats were in their infancy -usually a seat that was strappped over the front seat next to the driver.

Chicken pos, measles, and mumps were still considered normal childhood diseases and you were quanritine in you own home when you children got so sick from these diseases that are now preventable with vacines.

There were no double knits materials children clothes were made out of. I still remember ironing my daughters little dresses made out of cotton.

Despite the fact Moms worked their butts off during those days taking care of their children, cleaning, and making full course meals for hubby and family when he returned home from work (if he even came home!)

We still found the time to sit and just hold our children while rocking them and singing songs to them. Every night, we found the time to read them a good night story before they went to sleep. We always checked each one of our children before finally going to bed ourselves to make sure they were covered up and warm in their beds. Of course, another good night kiss was planted softly on their little cheeks before leaving the room.

Today, Moms are busy with their careers - I wonder how many of them do the things my generation considered 'normal'for their children. Talking from experience, all these things still can be done along with handling a career - it just takes work and self scarafice.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

kathycam said:


> More on the subject. This evening on channel HLN, 7 p.m. (Eastern Daylight time), there will be a program on "The War On Women". From the previews, it seems this will be will be very explicit and probably very disturbing, especially for survivors of DV. It will be showing for one hour before the Nancy Grace program, which may also be on the same topic.
> 
> I believe the term "war on women" was first coined by the first President Bush, more than 20 years ago. I would like to find out if any progress has been made in this war, but I'm not sure if I will be able to watch it...maybe with a glass of wine. I'm trying to work myself up for it.


These kind of shows only bring back bad memories for those of us that had the strength to get out of these types of relationships. On the other hand, if done properly, I hope this show will bring out all the help a battered woman can get if and when she decides to leave.

I have talked at many groups of women and try to use my experience as a battered woman and the problems I had to overcome - all on my own afterwards, as an example of no woman in today's times has to live in a relationship where they are punching bags for their husband, boyfriend, etc. I also talk about the signs of "control" to watch out for. Hopefully, I have helped getting this message out to those that need that extra push to walk away.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Joan Thelma--Your post brings back so many memories. I am happy to say that my daughter and her husband DO read, sing and say prayers with their children when they tuck them in at night. They both go in and check the girls and kiss them before they go to bed themselves. I like to think that they remember this as a fond memory from their own childhoods. These are the kinds of things that develop their characters. Pity the children that go to bed with visions of the latest semi-porn video they just watched.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Or because 40 years ago nobody knew a family with an autistic member and now everyone does?


I did. A woman I worked with, whom everyone disliked - with good reason - had a daughter with autism. We were all certain it was because Mom was so awful.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Joan Thelma said:


> These kind of shows only bring back bad memories for those of us that had the strength to get out of these types of relationships. On the other hand, if done properly, I hope this show will bring out all the help a battered woman can get if and when she decides to leave.
> 
> I have talked at many groups of women and try to use my experience as a battered woman and the problems I had to overcome - all on my own afterwards, as an example of no woman in today's times has to live in a relationship where they are punching bags for their husband, boyfriend, etc. I also talk about the signs of "control" to watch out for. Hopefully, I have helped getting this message out to those that need that extra push to walk away.


Yes. This program may be too much for former victims and that's why I tried to give a warning. Even though I have seen and heard hundreds of these stories, I don't know if I will be able to watch it either.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I did. A woman I worked with, whom everyone disliked - with good reason - had a daughter with autism. We were all certain it was because Mom was so awful.


Rather than that her life was so unhappy and so stressed that maybe she needed support? I am surprised. Not. 
What is it about society that people get so much from kicking people when they are down?


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Rather than that her life was so unhappy and so stressed that maybe she needed support? I am surprised. Not.
> What is it about society that people get so much from kicking people when they are down?


Thankfully, there are many more people that give of themselves to help those that need it so desperately.

Where I live, we have a Hot Line for Battered Women, suicide, and other emotional traumas, operated and manned by our YWCA members. Our Police Dept. also do NOT just walk away from domestic violence incidents - the abuser gets arrested on the spot.

There are also Policewomen that assist women who have to testify in Court against their abusers which can be very traumatic for them to do so.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Rather than that her life was so unhappy and so stressed that maybe she needed support? I am surprised. Not.
> What is it about society that people get so much from kicking people when they are down?


It takes so much more effort to raise yourself up; kicking someone who's down give the same satisfaction without the work.

That woman I was talking about, though she may have been stressed (and probably was, even with her daughter in an institution), did the unforgivable: I lent her a book that had taken me a long time to find, and she never returned it, even though every week for more than a year I asked her for it. Then she left for another job and probably still has my book. She deserved those kicks!!!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Joan Thelma said:


> Thankfully, there are many more people that give of themselves to help those that need it so desperately.
> 
> Where I live, we have a Hot Line for Battered Women, suicide, and other emotional traumas, operated and manned by our YWCA members. Our Police Dept. also do NOT just walk away from domestic violence incidents - the abuser gets arrested on the spot.
> 
> There are also Policewomen that assist women who have to testify in Court against their abusers which can be very traumatic for them to do so.


Your city (Utica, was it?) sounds like a very civilized place. I wonder whether things works that way in New York City.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It takes so much more effort to raise yourself up; kicking someone who's down give the same satisfaction without the work.
> 
> That woman I was talking about, though she may have been stressed (and probably was, even with her daughter in an institution), did the unforgivable: I lent her a book that had taken me a long time to find, and she never returned it, even though every week for more than a year I asked her for it. Then she left for another job and probably still has my book. She deserved those kicks!!!


HAHAHAA, now you left that one out in the first post. 
That may be a capital offense.

It was the times, I suppose, I used to get hit with the single parent stick all the time when dealing with my son's issues so I had some sympathy. I didn't know anyone who had a child with an autism diagnosis until the late 80s and that was a work situation... and yes, the parents I knew who had institutionalized their children punished themselves terribly, mired in guilt. 
People are not very kind, which is why I have to keep my fingers taped close when Lkholcomb posts her utopian visions of people caring about others and dropping the violence. I just don't see it happening regardless of how wonderful it seems.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

All this talk of bikkies and biscuits makes me want to head for the kitchen and make the cheddar/pecan yeast rolls I've been thinking of making plus chocolate chip/orange cookies and creamed chicken for dinner with cornbread to put the chicken on. Plus making little Yorkshire puddings for breakfast tomorrow because they are more fun than pancakes and can hold more of the sinful things like butter and jam and syrup and.... I am in no way trying to put down people with OCD, but an alternate version could be Obsessive Cooking Disorder. 

Oh, dear, I just remembered my mother put in a request for my bacon and cheddar spread. She needs to gain weight so I should probably start with that. She can't resist it.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> All this talk of bikkies and biscuits makes me want to head for the kitchen and make the cheddar/pecan yeast rolls I've been thinking of making plus chocolate chip/orange cookies and creamed chicken for dinner with cornbread to put the chicken on. Plus making little Yorkshire puddings for breakfast tomorrow because they are more fun than pancakes and can hold more of the sinful things like butter and jam and syrup and.... I am in no way trying to put down people with OCD, but an alternate version could be Obsessive Cooking Disorder.
> 
> Oh, dear, I just remembered my mother put in a request for my bacon and cheddar spread. She needs to gain weight so I should probably start with that. She can't resist it.


Oh, I have that disorder too and it is nice to see a name put to it. Because of my back issues though and not being able to stand for any length of time, mine has converted more to just collecting the recipes. I would love the recipe for that bacon and cheddar spread, cause everything is better with bacon.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> It takes so much more effort to raise yourself up; kicking someone who's down give the same satisfaction without the work.
> 
> That woman I was talking about, though she may have been stressed (and probably was, even with her daughter in an institution), did the unforgivable: I lent her a book that had taken me a long time to find, and she never returned it, even though every week for more than a year I asked her for it. Then she left for another job and probably still has my book. She deserved those kicks!!!


"Neither a borrower or lender be."


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> And they _are_ buying them, and buying stripper poles for little girls to learn dancing on; 4- and 5-year-olds are encouraged to dance in very suggestive ways. I can think of few things worse than dressing up a toddler so that she looks like a hooker. It's not good for her to think that's how girls, and eventually women, should dress, and the attention she'll get from strange men isn't good for her, either, and could be dangerous.
> 
> I agree with Mitzi, that a lot of it stems from the entertainment they and their parents see. Somehow, what used to be a leisure activity - entertainment - has taken precedence over all other things kids do, or used to do. Before TV, kids would spend time watching Mom, or whatever caretaker they had, do her work and learn from her what real women are like and what we can do. Now they learn from celebrities, and they often expect to become celebrities, instead of finding what they're best at.
> 
> I think I've depressed myself enough to stop here. To me this seems insurmountable.


This ties in with what I think of as the totally disgusting beauty pageants for little girls. I've watched a few installments of a TV show called "Toddlers and Tiaras". I watched more than one episode because I couldn't believe what I was seeing the first time around. I found it particularly perverse when many of the parents and children prayed to Jesus that they'll win.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> This ties in with what I think of as the totally disgusting beauty pageants for little girls. I've watched a few installments of a TV show called "Toddlers and Tiaras". I watched more than one episode because I couldn't believe what I was seeing the first time around. I found it particularly perverse when many of the parents and children prayed to Jesus that they'll win.


It sells, while this sort of thing certainly happens everywhere, MIB, it pays to remember that it is scripted and I believe that it is scripted for those people who think we should pray for selfish things such as winning beauty pageants. I think that lots of their very small audience thinks that way.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> The pendulum swings, my Empress, you must be tired from all that rabble rousing yesterday.
> I know that is the case as there you are with that "somehow", it isn't somehow it is parents giving up their parenting role to the electronics. To share some time in front of the tube is one thing, it is an opportunity to talk, to educate, and to join together as a family.
> To plunk the kids in front of the boob tube or a tablet so that the parent is able to entertain him/herself rather than do their job of teaching the child values is an abdication of duty.
> The thing that I don't understand is why have children if you can't be bothered to raise them, decades ago people had no choice.


And all those TV commercials tell people they have to have all sorts of things, so they buy them and end up with massive credit card debt and a devotion to materialism, and both parents working to pay for all this completely unnecessary garbage. Oh, and they have to pay for child care, too, and end up spending almost no family tine with their children. What is the point of having a family if you don't take the time to make it a great and enjoyable thing?


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Janet Cooke said:


> HAHAHAA, now you left that one out in the first post.
> That may be a capital offense.
> 
> It was the times, I suppose, I used to get hit with the single parent stick all the time when dealing with my son's issues so I had some sympathy. I didn't know anyone who had a child with an autism diagnosis until the late 80s and that was a work situation... and yes, the parents I knew who had institutionalized their children punished themselves terribly, mired in guilt.
> People are not very kind, which is why I have to keep my fingers taped close when Lkholcomb posts her utopian visions of people caring about others and dropping the violence. I just don't see it happening regardless of how wonderful it seems.


But if no one had utopian ideas nothing would EVER be done to change the cycle of violence!


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> This ties in with what I think of as the totally disgusting beauty pageants for little girls. I've watched a few installments of a TV show called "Toddlers and Tiaras". I watched more than one episode because I couldn't believe what I was seeing the first time around. I found it particularly perverse when many of the parents and children prayed to Jesus that they'll win.


I agree - rejection is hard enough for adults to handle - how does society expect a 4 yeaar old to be able to do this when they don't win 1st Place?

My GD (who has now been visiting me for 10 days and is now 23) talked me and her Mom into entering a Big Name Beauty Contest being held at thelocal Mall by our next door neighbor (a widower with no children) who was paying for the entrance fees, etc.

I bought a beautiful "normal" fancy dress for her to wear, and her Mom bought the little white shoes to go with the dress. Her hair was natural curley and she looked so sweet AND looked 2 years old. She was very bashful when she had to walk out on the stage for the Judges to see her, but overall she did her best.

The girl that "won" this contest was about 4 years old, with heavy makeup on, her hair had a permanent making it fuzzy, she wore one of those pagant dresses (all ruffles made our of taffeta material) and came out on stage like she owned it.

My GD won "Honorable Mention" and was given a ticket to enter a bigger contest in Noth Carolina - which my neighbor was also willing to pay for all the costs.

My daughter and I both said "NO" - there are bigger things to teach her than how to be "beautiful" to win prizes. We never regretted our decision. As she grew older, people would stop us when we were with her out in public and compliment her on her beauty and those long eyelashes she had - and still does.

I have always felt that somehow someone was behind the J. Bennett murder mystery that occurred years ago in Colorado and has never been solved.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Does anyone besides me find it odd that the women of the right with whom we all spar periodically have nothing to say in support of the victims of domestic violence?


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Does anyone besides me find it odd that the women of the right with whom we all spar periodically have nothing to say in support of the victims of domestic violence?


From what I've read, they all know the dangers that prostitution holds for them and many are murdered but tend not to be publicized as law enforcement feels no body cares about them.

From what I understand, these are women with drug habits and have no marketable skills to support themselves. They are to be pity rather than condemned.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Does anyone besides me find it odd that the women of the right with whom we all spar periodically have nothing to say in support of the victims of domestic violence?


I think they feel that it is beneath them, that it happens to "those people" and doesn't concern them. It is that holier than thou attitude I find so many of them have. If it has happened to them, it is something they would never admit.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Joan Thelma said:


> From what I've read, they all know the dangers that prostitution holds for them and many are murdered but tend not to be publicized as law enforcement feels no body cares about them.
> 
> From what I understand, these are women with drug habits and have no marketable skills to support themselves. They are to be pity rather than condemned.


While I agree that youngsters who are taken into prostitution long before they even know what the sex trade is should be rescued there are women who choose to prostitute themselves. In that case it is a business like any other, performance art, if you will.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> Does anyone besides me find it odd that the women of the right with whom we all spar periodically have nothing to say in support of the victims of domestic violence?


It seems to me that they are content these days to leave us on our own, I hope it stays that way.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Joan Thelma said:


> From what I've read, they all know the dangers that prostitution holds for them and many are murdered but tend not to be publicized as law enforcement feels no body cares about them.
> 
> From what I understand, these are women with drug habits and have no marketable skills to support themselves. They are to be pity rather than condemned.


They do have a marketable skill, obviously. It just may be one you do not have.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> Does anyone besides me find it odd that the women of the right with whom we all spar periodically have nothing to say in support of the victims of domestic violence?


 I have been reading this thread with much interest and am in awe of the strength and courage of the women that have been abused and were able to get out of that situation and turn their lives around. They are true survivors. They are also doing their best to break the cycle of abuse.

I have been waiting for one of you to make some sort of nasty comment and you and NJG certainly do not disappoint. Speaking just for myself, I have stayed away from all of your groups posts because I have had enough of your verbal abuse. I also find it odd that a group that abuses others has started a topic on domestic violence. I can only imagine the kind of violence that has gone on in your homes. I can only laugh when reading your responses to these wonderful women as it certainly shows what hypocrites you actually are.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> I have been reading this thread with much interest and am in awe of the strength and courage of the women that have been abused and were able to get out of that situation and turn their lives around. They are true survivors. They are also doing their best to break the cycle of abuse.
> 
> I have been waiting for one of you to make some sort of nasty comment and you and NJG certainly do not disappoint. Speaking just for myself, I have stayed away from all of your groups posts because I have had enough of your verbal abuse. I also find it odd that a group that abuses others has started a topic on domestic violence. I can only imagine the kind of violence that has gone on in your homes. I can only laugh when reading your responses to these wonderful women as it certainly shows what hypocrites you actually are.


Apparently you have not stayed away from our posts, you just said that you have been reading this thread. 
You had just managed to refrain from spewing your ugliness. 
Please, consider yourself dismissed.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> I have been reading this thread with much interest and am in awe of the strength and courage of the women that have been abused and were able to get out of that situation and turn their lives around. They are true survivors. They are also doing their best to break the cycle of abuse.
> 
> I have been waiting for one of you to make some sort of nasty comment and you and NJG certainly do not disappoint. Speaking just for myself, I have stayed away from all of your groups posts because I have had enough of your verbal abuse. I also find it odd that a group that abuses others has started a topic on domestic violence. I can only imagine the kind of violence that has gone on in your homes. I can only laugh when reading your responses to these wonderful women as it certainly shows what hypocrites you actually are.


There was nothing nasty about my post, just curious, since you are all quick to jump on political or abortion issues. Nice that you commend these women who have shared their stories, would have been more commendable had you praised them here. And no one had made a laughable response to their stories, but have been supporting and encouraging. Nice try at snarkiness though!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> I have been reading this thread with much interest and am in awe of the strength and courage of the women that have been abused and were able to get out of that situation and turn their lives around. They are true survivors. They are also doing their best to break the cycle of abuse.
> 
> I have been waiting for one of you to make some sort of nasty comment and you and NJG certainly do not disappoint. Speaking just for myself, I have stayed away from all of your groups posts because I have had enough of your verbal abuse. I also find it odd that a group that abuses others has started a topic on domestic violence. I can only imagine the kind of violence that has gone on in your homes. I can only laugh when reading your responses to these wonderful women as it certainly shows what hypocrites you actually are.


And just when we were wondering about the nasty comments, you show up soloweygirl. It was very nice while you were away. There has never been any violence in my home and for you to suggest that is disgusting and the fact that you can laugh about things you have read on here shows who the hypocrite is.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

NJG said:


> And just when we were wondering about the nasty comments, you show up soloweygirl. It was very nice while you were away. There has never been any violence in my home and for you to suggest that is disgusting and the fact that you can laugh about things you have read on here shows who the hypocrite is.


Now watch her rally her comrades for an invasion. All of the brave women who have shared their stories will know where their real support comes from anyway!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Cindy, it wouldn't be anything new. 
I find it very disturbing that solow can laugh about anything that this thread pertains to. 
Just goes to show what low caliber ideals this person has.
There is nothing funny about DV in any case.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Cindy, it wouldn't be anything new.
> I find it very disturbing that solow can laugh about anything that this thread pertains to.
> Just goes to show what low caliber ideals this person has.
> There is nothing funny about DV in any case.


I agree :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Edit.....And I do apologize for bringing up the subject and I do hope it does not cause this thread to spiral downward into nastiness if they do show up.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Nah, this one who posted argues for rhe sake of arguing.
Sometimes when a thread stays free of conflict you can expect this from her.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> "Neither a borrower or lender be."


I loaned out my copy of "Angels and Demons", which according to the borrower, was loaned out by her, and her borrower loaned it to someone else, and she didn't know where it was. When another friend wanted to borrow it, I bought another copy. Her then husband wanted to read it, so I had to wait to get it back. They broke up and the book moved out with him. If I ever want to read it again, I will go to the library--where books a supposed to be borrowed.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> This ties in with what I think of as the totally disgusting beauty pageants for little girls. I've watched a few installments of a TV show called "Toddlers and Tiaras". I watched more than one episode because I couldn't believe what I was seeing the first time around. I found it particularly perverse when many of the parents and children prayed to Jesus that they'll win.


I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks these baby/child pageants are beyond perverse, on so many levels. I don't even want to get started on this one.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

kathycam said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks these baby/child pageants are beyond perverse, on so many levels. I don't even want to get started on this one.


And the mothers seem to be so mean spirited, although I am sure some of that is for tv. Still do they ever look back at that and think I shouldn't have said that. What an example to set for a child.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

NJG said:


> And the mothers seem to be so mean spirited, although I am sure some of that is for tv. Still do they ever look back at that and think I shouldn't have said that. What an example to set for a child.


Which of us has not?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Retch!



MaidInBedlam said:


> This ties in with what I think of as the totally disgusting beauty pageants for little girls. I've watched a few installments of a TV show called "Toddlers and Tiaras". I watched more than one episode because I couldn't believe what I was seeing the first time around. I found it particularly perverse when many of the parents and children prayed to Jesus that they'll win.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Good point, but I'm not surprised. Domestic Violence doesn't catch their attention at all.



Cindy S said:


> Does anyone besides me find it odd that the women of the right with whom we all spar periodically have nothing to say in support of the victims of domestic violence?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> It seems to me that they are content these days to leave us on our own, I hope it stays that way.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Me and my big mouth.



soloweygirl said:


> I have been reading this thread with much interest and am in awe of the strength and courage of the women that have been abused and were able to get out of that situation and turn their lives around. They are true survivors. They are also doing their best to break the cycle of abuse.
> 
> I have been waiting for one of you to make some sort of nasty comment and you and NJG certainly do not disappoint. Speaking just for myself, I have stayed away from all of your groups posts because I have had enough of your verbal abuse. I also find it odd that a group that abuses others has started a topic on domestic violence. I can only imagine the kind of violence that has gone on in your homes. I can only laugh when reading your responses to these wonderful women as it certainly shows what hypocrites you actually are.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Cindy, it wouldn't be anything new.
> I find it very disturbing that solow can laugh about anything that this thread pertains to.
> Just goes to show what low caliber ideals this person has.
> There is nothing funny about DV in any case.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

damemary said:


> Me and my big mouth.


What does that say about someone? 
Why would anyone monitor a thread just waiting to pounce when something was said that she didn't like? 
Now I know why they make that allegation about me so often, it is exactly what they do.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> I have been reading this thread with much interest and am in awe of the strength and courage of the women that have been abused and were able to get out of that situation and turn their lives around. They are true survivors. They are also doing their best to break the cycle of abuse.
> 
> I have been waiting for one of you to make some sort of nasty comment and you and NJG certainly do not disappoint. Speaking just for myself, I have stayed away from all of your groups posts because I have had enough of your verbal abuse. I also find it odd that a group that abuses others has started a topic on domestic violence. I can only imagine the kind of violence that has gone on in your homes. I can only laugh when reading your responses to these wonderful women as it certainly shows what hypocrites you actually are.


Something does not compute here. I have not read any unpleasant postings on this particular site from anyone - only sympathy and support. So why are you here stirring an ugly pot and trying to make trouble? If you are looking for trouble, meet us at Hobby Lobby and you will get what you are looking for. Scat!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put.



SQM said:


> Something does not compute here. I have not read any unpleasant postings on this particular site from anyone - only sympathy and support. So why are you here stirring an ugly pot and trying to make trouble? If you are looking for trouble, meet us at Hobby Lobby and you will get what you are looking for. Scat!


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

damemary said:


> Me and my big mouth.


You know what, let's just IGNORE them. It takes 2 to tango, and if they don't get any response, they won't find it very "entertaining" to be here.

Whadya all say?


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Knitry said:


> You know what, let's just IGNORE them. It takes 2 to tango, and if they don't get any response, they won't find it very "entertaining" to be here.
> 
> Whadya all say?


I thought that there was a good deal of agreement to that last week, Knitry. 
It is sooooo easy to get sucked in.


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## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

Lwt's get this subject of Domestic Violence back on track - please.

There might be many abused women still living with their abuser that might find this tread helpful and full of the type of information they need to make their own decisions on whether or not to leave.

All this petty nonsense does not help this subject at all. If you know someone is only causing trouble and has nothing to contribute towards the DV subject, just turn the other cheek and continue with the great conversation we were having.

Just my little piece of advice as an observer.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Joan Thelma said:


> Lwt's get this subject of Domestic Violence back on track - please.
> 
> There might be many abused women still living with their abuser that might find this tread helpful and full of the type of information they need to make their own decisions on whether or not to leave.
> 
> ...


I agree. I can have a battle of wits elsewhere. But maybe this thread has run its course.


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

Joan Thelma said:


> I always taught my girls and my Grandaughters 'Dress and act like a lady and you will be treated as one. Act like a slut and dress like one, that is exactly how you will be treated'.
> 
> Imo - self worth is the answer and this is something young girls should have instilled in them from an early age.


Well, I guess I opened that can of worms, and having done so I'll have to address this issue.

This line of thinking plays right into our Rape Culture by setting up the parameters for victim blaming. Women get raped and the immediate questions are: What was she wearing? What was she doing out at that hour? Why did she go out with him? Did she have too much to drink?

On and on the questions go.

NO! A thousand times no: there is NOTHING a woman can do to make her deserve to be raped or otherwise sexually assaulted. NOTHING. It's 100% the fault of the rapist and the woman deserves NONE. No is no and the absence of explicit affirmation is no as well.

Further, this line of thinking is slut shaming. Frankly, women should be just as free as men are to dress however they want, without repercussion of any kind.

Having said that, I'm a BIG fan of strong personal boundaries, including sexual boundaries and that means I'm a fan of a certain amount of what some call modesty -- including dressing somewhat modestly. BUT, women who don't conform to MY personal ideals should NOT be slut-shamed for it.

Blaming the victim and slut shaming go hand in hand and they both contribute greatly to the overall denigration of women and culture of misogyny we live in, though there are other dynamics involved in the broad topic of violence against women -- as well as the more narrow topic of this thread, domestic violence.


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

Mitzi said:


> I have never gone to rock concerts nor allowed my children to when they were still young enough I could allow or not. That said, YES, Male rock stars do and have often done things like Miley Cyris did. I've unfortunately seen it replayed on the news or in newspapers even when I'm not looking for such junk. I see it as the entertaiment industry, not just female.


Really? Aside from the crotch grabbing made popular by Michael Jackson (all fully clothed, btw), and Robin Thick twerking with Miley Cyrus, I've seen nothing of the sort, nothing that even begins to compare with the full-out sexualized -- er, "pornified" -- performances of Britney Spears, Shakira, and Miley Cyrus. Perhaps you'd share a few links??


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> But that's because nobody thought to pose the question to a large group of knitters and crocheters.


well, there ya go. Eggggsackly.









Next we gotta work on world peace.


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It takes so much more effort to raise yourself up; kicking someone who's down give the same satisfaction without the work.


With just a little effort, you could be our female Oscar Wild.



> That woman I was talking about, though she may have been stressed (and probably was, even with her daughter in an institution), did the unforgivable: I lent her a book that had taken me a long time to find, and she never returned it ....


Yes. should be a felony. It's the reason I never, ever lend books any more. Not to ANYone. What fool thinks it's okay to keep a borrowed book longer than a week?? Sheesh. Unbelievable.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> I agree. I can have a battle of wits elsewhere. But maybe this thread has run its course.


It will most likely circle over, under, around, and through...morphing all the way.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Knitry said:


> Well, I guess I opened that can of worms, and having done so I'll have to address this issue.
> 
> This line of thinking plays right into our Rape Culture by setting up the parameters for victim blaming. Women get raped and the immediate questions are: What was she wearing? What was she doing out at that hour? Why did she go out with him? Did she have too much to drink?
> 
> ...


I agree Knitry. There has been so much talk from our politicians lately about legitimate rape, etc. It kind of surprised me that people still felt that way, especially our elected officials. One even said spousal rape wasn't a crime because she was sleeping in the same bed and was wearing a nightie. The big problem is men with these attitudes are parents, especially of sons, but they are raising daughters too, that accept this kind of attitude from boyfriends. Makes me sick.


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> While I agree that youngsters who are taken into prostitution long before they even know what the sex trade is should be rescued there are women who choose to prostitute themselves. In that case it is a business like any other, performance art, if you will.


The vast majority of women prostitutes -- and this applies to most men involved in the sex trade as well -- were sexually abused as children. In fact, many women became prostitutes when they ran away from sexually abusive homes. Personally, I suspect those who claim that they were NOT sexually abused as children either don't remember their abuse or don't understand what abuse is. (Oversexualizing our youth in the ways I've been describing is, IMO, a form of sexual abuse.) But the percentage of those is quite small.

Further, just last night I saw a woman on one of the evening MSNBC shows who works with prostitutes who want to leave the life and she says that the vast majority of working prostitutes (80+ percent -- don't remember the exact number) would not have chosen this as a career and do not like it as a career. She also insisted that prostitution IS Sex Trafficking -- that they are not separate entities -- and to be honest, I think I now agree. She was adamant.

I think we who care about women and women's issues have to be brutally honest about the sex trade: there is nothing empowering about it, nothing redeeming about it, nothing that makes it something we want in our society ANYWHERE.

Once again, having said all that, I'm NOT calling for more legal rsrictions, and I'm certainly not wanting women to be targeted and squeezed but rather supported and lifted out of that life if they want out.

And sure many if not most are on drugs. I would be too if I had to do that to myself on a daily basis. Sheesh. Again, last night's guest called it "violence" to subject oneself or have to be subjected to having sex with all those different me every day. She was quite frank in saying, "The human body wasn't built for that kind of abuse."

At the very least, we have to recognize within our own hearts that no one who is mentally and emotionally healthy would willingly do that. They just wouldn't. This isn't an excuse to denigrate and demean them further, but a call for compassion and understanding.

Oh, and by the way. Mark my words. Some day we will hear that both Miley Cyrus and Britney Spears were sexually abused as children. In fact, I personally believe Miley is acting out with a vehemence usually seen only in those who turn violent in their acting out of their own pain. Unfortunately, it could take a good many years before the truth outs, but it will. Remember my words.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Knitry said:


> The vast majority of women prostitutes -- and this applies to most men involved in the sex trade as well -- were sexually abused as children. In fact, many women became prostitutes when they ran away from sexually abusive homes. Personally, I suspect those who claim that they were NOT sexually abused as children either don't remember their abuse or don't understand what abuse is. (Oversexualizing our youth in the ways I've been describing is, IMO, a form of sexual abuse.) But the percentage of those is quite small.
> 
> Further, just last night I saw a woman on one of the evening MSNBC shows who works with prostitutes who want to leave the life and she says that the vast majority of working prostitutes (80+ percent -- don't remember the exact number) would not have chosen this as a career and do not like it as a career. She also insisted that prostitution IS Sex Trafficking -- that they are not separate entities -- and to be honest, I think I now agree. She was adamant.
> 
> ...


Yes, I have seen that very dedicated woman speak a number of times. 
I thought that I made it quite clear that I was not talking about that population. 
One in four women are mistreated sexually before they reach the age of 18. It doesn't surprise me at all when any female talks of having been assaulted as a child.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

kathycam said:


> I loaned out my copy of "Angels and Demons", which according to the borrower, was loaned out by her, and her borrower loaned it to someone else, and she didn't know where it was. When another friend wanted to borrow it, I bought another copy. Her then husband wanted to read it, so I had to wait to get it back. They broke up and the book moved out with him. If I ever want to read it again, I will go to the library--where books a supposed to be borrowed.


I learned the hard way never to lend books I didn't want to lose. If I part with a book it is something I never expect to get back and really will not miss. I worked for years for a book wholesaler and have too many review copies that I will never read. I go through them periodically and put them on the freebie shelf either at the library or senior center. And yes, use our excellent county library system to acquire the "popcorn" books I like to read once.

DH has said he is afraid the main floor of the house will collapse into the basement for the weight of my books. He keeps his in the basement library and has hogged all the shelves there, so too bad. That is about as abusive as he gets.

He says the smart man learns to smile and say "yes, dear" and mean it. I hope so hard for all you strong, beautiful women who have survived abuse that if you can think of a new relationship you are blessed with a good man who respects you as a partner and best friend.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> "Neither a borrower or lender be."


I'm sure you're aware that the character who says that in Hamlet - Polonius - was regarded as a bore, among other things.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> This ties in with what I think of as the totally disgusting beauty pageants for little girls. I've watched a few installments of a TV show called "Toddlers and Tiaras". I watched more than one episode because I couldn't believe what I was seeing the first time around. I found it particularly perverse when many of the parents and children prayed to Jesus that they'll win.


I've never been able to stay with anything like that all the way to the end, so I missed the praying part. Those little girls, with hair done and makeup; how could parents want their kids to be focused purely on how they look? And especially after poor Jon-Benet Ramsey. There are very creepy people out there just waiting for cute little girls. These kids should be learning how to defend themselves, not how to walk in high heels.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm sure you're aware that the character who says that in Hamlet - Polonius - was regarded as a bore, among other things.


Ha Ha.

Bore Schome.

That is a true statement and one you just experienced.

Plus "Bore" is in the ears of the listener. Ex-Man was a horrible "Bore" but I am sure his Sugar Momma doesn't think so!


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Knitry, your message is full of things that will take time to digest. Thanks for bringing them up. One question that has come up several times is how a woman from a safe home, raised by her parents to be independent, can end up living with an abuser and unable to get out of the relationship. A lot, I believe, has to do with how she's socialized outside of the home. Parents can do only so much to counteract social pressure.


Yes, the entire culture is filled to the brim with messages that women are (and SHOULD be) weak, disempowered, and quite simply not worth very much, with our primary purpose pleasing men, in one way or another.

And not to beat a dead horse, but if you see disembodied female body parts shown day in and day out on all the media you have access to, see women and our body parts held up as playthings for men (for their _sexual_ pleasure), NO ONE has to tell you that you don't amount to much, don't count for shit.

I was looking just now for a bookmarked videotube video I wanted to share. Didn't find it (yet?), but I did find this, which is startling and frightening. (I surprise myself how "willing" I seem to be to forget some of this -- it's just really, really hard to take on a continuing basis.) It's not quite what I wanted to share, but it's instructive nonetheless:



> *1998 The Enjoyment of Sexist Humor, Rape Attitudes, and Relationship Aggression in College Students *
> Abstract http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1018868913615
> The current study tested Freud's (1905/1960)theory that sexist humor may be associated with hostility toward women and extended previous research showing a link between hostile humor and aggression. Colleges students (N = 399  approximately 92%white, 5% African American, and 3% other minorities) rated 10 sexist jokes on their perceived funniness. Results showed that the enjoyment of sexist humor was positively correlated with rape-related attitudes and beliefs, the self-reported likelihood of forcing sex, and psychological, physical, and sexual aggression in men. For women, the enjoyment of sexist humor was only positively correlated with Adversarial Sexual Beliefs and Acceptance of Interpersonal Violence. Women also found the jokes to be less enjoyable, less acceptable, and more offensive than the men, but they were not significantly less likely to tell the jokes.


And look at this:


> *Any mention of a female candidate's appearance in the media be it positive, negative or even neutral damages her chance of being elected, according to a new study.
> http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2013/04/15/daily-circuit-politician-appearance*


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I've never been able to stay with anything like that all the way to the end, so I missed the praying part. Those little girls, with hair done and makeup; how could parents want their kids to be focused purely on how they look? And especially after poor Jon-Benet Ramsey. There are very creepy people out there just waiting for cute little girls. These kids should be learning how to defend themselves, not how to walk in high heels.


And there can be creepy people in there, too.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I've never been able to stay with anything like that all the way to the end, so I missed the praying part. Those little girls, with hair done and makeup; how could parents want their kids to be focused purely on how they look? And especially after poor Jon-Benet Ramsey. There are very creepy people out there just waiting for cute little girls. These kids should be learning how to defend themselves, not how to walk in high heels.


I am really not so sure that people with a compulsion to abuse little children care whether they are cute or not, I think the interest is to determine just how great the vulnerability is and how easy a target the child is.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Does anyone besides me find it odd that the women of the right with whom we all spar periodically have nothing to say in support of the victims of domestic violence?


They have more important things to discuss, like who's lying, how many lies they've told, and who's going to accuse the liars of lying.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> They have more important things to discuss, like who's lying, how many lies they've told, and who's going to accuse the liars of lying.


I must bring up my favorite inane comment - Cheeky's cat not being a real cat. That went on for pages. Then it was thankfully forgotten and Designer 1234 brings it back to life. Now I am. Cubes! The Zombie topic!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Joan Thelma said:


> Lwt's get this subject of Domestic Violence back on track - please.
> 
> There might be many abused women still living with their abuser that might find this tread helpful and full of the type of information they need to make their own decisions on whether or not to leave.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Joan Thelma. We all need a nudge in the right direction sometimes. You're absolutely right.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitry said:


> With just a little effort, you could be our female Oscar Wild.


I think the original Oscar _was_ the female Oscar Wilde.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I think the original Oscar _was_ the female Oscar Wilde.


(I am in love with the wit and literary references that Our Precious Purl has been making all day.) Illness become you. But I hope you are feeling better. See you for light stuff on LOLL 5.


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Yes, I have seen that very dedicated woman speak a number of times.
> *I thought that I made it quite clear that I was not talking about that population. *
> One in four women are mistreated sexually before they reach the age of 18. It doesn't surprise me at all when any female talks of having been assaulted as a child.


Sorry if I got a little carried away. I DID mention this whole violence against women thing is a hot button issue for me, didn't I? (Probably should preface every post of mine in this thread with that warning.)

And yes, thanks for focusing on the horrific stats on abuse of girls (and too many boys) in our society.

I'l never forget an interview Oprah conducted with someone in prison for abusing a relative of his, who had actually "gotten it" about what he had done. She said, so what do you now understand you did?

He said, "I killed who she could have been."

That's what is done to us through not just sexual abuse but ALL the abuse and diminishment-as-people we are subjected to on a daily basis in a thousand ways BY our culture: it kills who we could be.

That is also the purpose behind it all.


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> (I am in love with the wit and literary references that Our Precious Purl has been making all day.)


She stuns me, she really does.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> I am really not so sure that people with a compulsion to abuse little children care whether they are cute or not, I think the interest is to determine just how great the vulnerability is and how easy a target the child is.


I think the clothes and makeup give pedophiles an excuse - "She wanted it. If she didn't, she wouldn't have looked/smiled/winked at me like that." I don't think these excuses work, but the perverts convince themselves it's true.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I must bring up my favorite inane comment - Cheeky's cat not being a real cat. That went on for pages. Then it was thankfully forgotten and Designer 1234 brings it back to life. Now I am. Cubes! The Zombie topic!


The Talking Dead.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Knitry said:


> Sorry if I got a little carried away. I DID mention this whole violence against women thing is a hot button issue for me, didn't I? (Probably should preface every post of mine in this thread with that warning.)
> 
> And yes, thanks for focusing on the horrific stats on abuse of girls (and too many boys) in our society.
> 
> ...


I am not sure that anyone has actually determined what the purpose is beyond (maybe) building oneself up at the expense of another or many others. 
The scientific process that caused us to evolve into bi-peds didn't do any better job of determining our psychic wellness than our physical strength as upright beings, IMO.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> (I am in love with the wit and literary references that Our Precious Purl has been making all day.) Illness become you. But I hope you are feeling better. See you for light stuff on LOLL 5.


Thank you. I'm not feeling great, and I went to class today. I'll get over to LOLL as soon as I finish the bowl of soup that my son made. (Yay, son!!!)


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you. I'm not feeling great, and I went to class today. I'll get over to LOLL as soon as I finish the bowl of soup that my son made. (Yay, son!!!)


Yay son is right. They do come in handy sometimes, don't they?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitry said:


> She stuns me, she really does.


If you had spent as many years in classrooms as I have, you'd stun yourself.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Yay son is right. They do come in handy sometimes, don't they?


If I told you how come he made the soup in the first place, you wouldn't think so.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

NJG said:


> I agree Knitry. There has been so much talk from our politicians lately about legitimate rape, etc. It kind of surprised me that people still felt that way, especially our elected officials. One even said spousal rape wasn't a crime because she was sleeping in the same bed and was wearing a nightie. The big problem is men with these attitudes are parents, especially of sons, but they are raising daughters too, that accept this kind of attitude from boyfriends. Makes me sick.


You said it! That attitude is appalling and the ignorance of some politicians is not only sickening, but scary. How about the one who said a woman's body would self abort if she were REALLY raped? If only politicians bodies could self destruct every time they lie, cheat, or manage to get two brain cells together to say something as idiotic as that.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

kathycam said:


> You said it! That attitude is appalling and the ignorance of some politicians is not only sickening, but scary. How about the one who said a woman's body would self abort if she were REALLY raped? If only politicians bodies could self destruct every time they lie, cheat, or manage to get two brain cells together to say something as idiotic as that.


Don't get me started!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

kathycam said:


> You said it! That attitude is appalling and the ignorance of some politicians is not only sickening, but scary. How about the one who said a woman's body would self abort if she were REALLY raped? If only politicians bodies could self destruct every time they lie, cheat, or manage to get two brain cells together to say something as idiotic as that.


We didn't use to hear things like that, which is even more scary. They have believed this kind of crap all along, but just kept it to themselves. Having them say what they really think should make voting easier, you would think!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> I must bring up my favorite inane comment - Cheeky's cat not being a real cat. That went on for pages. Then it was thankfully forgotten and Designer 1234 brings it back to life. Now I am. Cubes! The Zombie topic!


I am sorry I brought it back--- I hadn't read the thread for sometime as I had not been able to spend much time on line and clicked in -Have had some 'stuff on my mind and saw how absolutely stupid it was and replied. I should have left it until I had read the whole thread. I hope I didn't cause too much trouble. I am sorry though. However, that being said, (and I meant it) - there are a lot of deliberately nasty things on these threads - and I wasn't trying to cause trouble. YOu have mentioned it more than once -- that is the reason I am explaining. It was a mistake -- and that is all I am going to say about it.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I am sorry I brought it back--- I hadn't read the thread for sometime as I had not been able to spend much time on line and clicked in -Have had some 'stuff on my mind and saw how absolutely stupid it was and replied. I should have left it until I had read the whole thread. I hope I didn't cause too much trouble. I am sorry though. However, that being said, (and I meant it) - there are a lot of deliberately nasty things on these threads - and I wasn't trying to cause trouble. YOu have mentioned it more than once -- that is the reason I am explaining. It was a mistake -- and that is all I am going to say about it.


I never took your popping in here as a problem. I was trying to be funny, that is all. No apologies needed. And don't fret. No one is getting my jokes tonight. Need to rework my material.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

kathycam said:


> You said it! That attitude is appalling and the ignorance of some politicians is not only sickening, but scary. How about the one who said a woman's body would self abort if she were REALLY raped? If only politicians bodies could self destruct every time they lie, cheat, or manage to get two brain cells together to say something as idiotic as that.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You're reading my mind.



Knitry said:


> You know what, let's just IGNORE them. It takes 2 to tango, and if they don't get any response, they won't find it very "entertaining" to be here.
> 
> Whadya all say?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Let's remind each other. I really want this to work. I've tried everything for years. There is no point in it and it's no fun. IMO



Janet Cooke said:


> I thought that there was a good deal of agreement to that last week, Knitry.
> It is sooooo easy to get sucked in.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Keep reminding us. It's hard to break a habit. Thank you.



Joan Thelma said:


> Lwt's get this subject of Domestic Violence back on track - please.
> 
> There might be many abused women still living with their abuser that might find this tread helpful and full of the type of information they need to make their own decisions on whether or not to leave.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Not even close.



SQM said:


> I agree. I can have a battle of wits elsewhere. But maybe this thread has run its course.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I am sorry I brought it back--- I hadn't read the thread for sometime as I had not been able to spend much time on line and clicked in -Have had some 'stuff on my mind and saw how absolutely stupid it was and replied. I should have left it until I had read the whole thread. I hope I didn't cause too much trouble. I am sorry though. However, that being said, (and I meant it) - there are a lot of deliberately nasty things on these threads - and I wasn't trying to cause trouble. YOu have mentioned it more than once -- that is the reason I am explaining. It was a mistake -- and that is all I am going to say about it.


We all do that sort of thing from time to time, or completely misunderstand a point that someone is trying to make.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

This is a very valuable point of view. It's tough for many of us, but it's the difference between being part of the problem or part of the solution. The concept of healthy boundaries and self esteem are vital. Thanks for bringing it up.



Knitry said:


> Well, I guess I opened that can of worms, and having done so I'll have to address this issue.
> 
> This line of thinking plays right into our Rape Culture by setting up the parameters for victim blaming. Women get raped and the immediate questions are: What was she wearing? What was she doing out at that hour? Why did she go out with him? Did she have too much to drink?
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It all becomes a matter of personal judgement.Ed Sullivan couldn't show Elvis Presley below the waist.



Knitry said:


> Really? Aside from the crotch grabbing made popular by Michael Jackson (all fully clothed, btw), and Robin Thick twerking with Miley Cyrus, I've seen nothing of the sort, nothing that even begins to compare with the full-out sexualized -- er, "pornified" -- performances of Britney Spears, Shakira, and Miley Cyrus. Perhaps you'd share a few links??


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

If anybody can do it, we can.



Knitry said:


> well, there ya go. Eggggsackly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I remember a dark period of my life. It took many years to learn that that dark period made me the woman I am now. I'm married to the love of my life for 28 years. I think of this as my reward. I wish this happiness for everyone.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

damemary said:


> It all becomes a matter of personal judgement.Ed Sullivan couldn't show Elvis Presley below the waist.


Isn't that something to think of today? Parents all up in arms about those swiveling hips and that sneer.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Indeed. His soliloquy is frequently quoted as wise, and in the play he's a blowhard.



Poor Purl said:


> I'm sure you're aware that the character who says that in Hamlet - Polonius - was regarded as a bore, among other things.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Isn't that something to think of today? Parents all up in arms about those swiveling hips and that sneer.


And today they wish all they had to be concerned about was those swiveling hips and that sneer.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It really does creep up on you. Deep breath. We have many interesting topics to discuss.



SQM said:


> I must bring up my favorite inane comment - Cheeky's cat not being a real cat. That went on for pages. Then it was thankfully forgotten and Designer 1234 brings it back to life. Now I am. Cubes! The Zombie topic!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Gender is such an insignificant thing. How many genders are there anyway? Any why do we care if we're not having sex with the person?



Poor Purl said:


> I think the original Oscar _was_ the female Oscar Wilde.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl's comments surprise and challenge. Such a pleasure to me.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Caution....or we'll be trapped.



Poor Purl said:


> The Talking Dead.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> If you had spent as many years in classrooms as I have, you'd stun yourself.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: See. I told you so. Her mind works in mysterious and wonderful ways.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think the most ignorant repubs have been scorned and ridiculed as never before, but I truly wonder if they 'get it' yet.



kathycam said:


> You said it! That attitude is appalling and the ignorance of some politicians is not only sickening, but scary. How about the one who said a woman's body would self abort if she were REALLY raped? If only politicians bodies could self destruct every time they lie, cheat, or manage to get two brain cells together to say something as idiotic as that.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Welcome back. Glad you have a real life too.



Designer1234 said:


> I am sorry I brought it back--- I hadn't read the thread for sometime as I had not been able to spend much time on line and clicked in -Have had some 'stuff on my mind and saw how absolutely stupid it was and replied. I should have left it until I had read the whole thread. I hope I didn't cause too much trouble. I am sorry though. However, that being said, (and I meant it) - there are a lot of deliberately nasty things on these threads - and I wasn't trying to cause trouble. YOu have mentioned it more than once -- that is the reason I am explaining. It was a mistake -- and that is all I am going to say about it.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> I think the most ignorant repubs have been scorned and ridiculed as never before, but I truly wonder if they 'get it' yet.


I would so no. They are trying to just change the topic and not talk about rape etc any more, but they still believe as they always have. They do not get it.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> I remember a dark period of my life. It took many years to learn that that dark period made me the woman I am now. I'm married to the love of my life for 28 years. I think of this as my reward. I wish this happiness for everyone.


You are My Grace. And you are indeed graced.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: See. I told you so. Her mind works in mysterious and wonderful ways.


She is incredible and she is a very interesting, lovely and fun person, too.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Gender is such an insignificant thing. How many genders are there anyway? Any why do we care if we're not having sex with the person?


I agree with you, but I couldn't let an obvious joke go by without making it more obvious.

Wait, don't people still ask, when a baby is born, whether it's a boy or a girl? As long as it has all its fingers and toes, the first thing you're told is its sex.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: See. I told you so. Her mind works in mysterious and wonderful ways.


Sshhh. She can hear everything you're saying. My narcissism is getting too many accolades.


----------



## CaroleJS (Jun 2, 2011)

Joan Thelma said:


> Child rearing back in the 50s and 60s were a lot more tougher than today's parents experience despite all the conveniences they have that were not available during the times I brought my children up.
> 
> The majority of us did not use disposable diapers (considered to be a lazy mom if you did). Instead we used a smelling diaper pail, washed all the soiled diapers, and hung then out to dry (even during the ise & cold Winter months).
> 
> ...


I did all of the above for my 3 kids in the late 70's to the mid 80's.


----------



## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

CaroleJS said:


> I did all of the above for my 3 kids in the late 70's to the mid 80's.


Good for you. You are like finding a diamond in a pile of mud.


----------



## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> These kids should be learning how to defend themselves, not how to walk in high heels.


Oooh, can I please, please _pretty please_ quote you?


----------



## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

CaroleJS said:


> I did all of the above for my 3 kids in the late 70's to the mid 80's.


I did all of the above for my children, born 1997 and 2001, and still do, from time to time. Daughter is getting ready for a musical production at school this last month or so, and hasn't been home most evenings, but we also still eat dinner as a family.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> Oooh, can I please, please _pretty please_ quote you?


You can have it all, without attribution.

Is that edible child in your avatar one of yours?


----------



## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You can have it all, without attribution.
> 
> Is that edible child in your avatar one of yours?


A million thanks.

She is my niece, thanks. I got to keep her and her 2 big brothers over the weekend, what fun!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> A million thanks.
> 
> She is my niece, thanks. I got to keep her and her 2 big brothers over the weekend, what fun!


I should have guessed - you call yourself auntie. I used to love having nieces and nephews stay with us, but they all have kids of their own and live all over the country now.

Anyway, your niece is adorable.


----------



## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I should have guessed - you call yourself auntie. I used to love having nieces and nephews stay with us, but they all have kids of their own and live all over the country now.
> 
> Anyway, your niece is adorable.


Thanks. I still spend the night with my aunt from time to time.. I just take my kids with me! It's a special bond, isn't it?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for reminding me. In all the important ways, I am indeed Grace.



SQM said:


> You are My Grace. And you are indeed graced.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm still amazed when everyone knows ahead of time if it's a boy or girl. My last child was born in 1974 and no such thing was available.

But doesn't the two become more as the child develops? Gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, trans-sexual (both ways) and I'm sure I've forgotten something. All this still begs the question for me of is this too much information for a casual stranger to have? Perhaps it would be if everyone accepted and respected everyone else. Just asking.



Poor Purl said:


> I agree with you, but I couldn't let an obvious joke go by without making it more obvious.
> 
> Wait, don't people still ask, when a baby is born, whether it's a boy or a girl? As long as it has all its fingers and toes, the first thing you're told is its sex.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No such thing. The answer is 'thank you.'



Poor Purl said:


> Sshhh. She can hear everything you're saying. My narcissism is getting too many accolades.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'm still amazed when everyone knows ahead of time if it's a boy or girl. My last child was born in 1974 and no such thing was available.
> 
> But doesn't the two become more as the child develops? Gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, trans-sexual (both ways) and I'm sure I've forgotten something. All this still begs the question for me of is this too much information for a casual stranger to have? Perhaps it would be if everyone accepted and respected everyone else. Just asking.


I think all you left out was asexual, which few people will admit to. But you're right that the other subdesignations, which don't depend on the obvious, are definitely too much information, even for extended family.

As a knitter, I find it useful to know before a baby is born which side the buttonholes should go on and whether or not to make a dress. As for the rest, that can wait until the child is old enough to know its own sex.

Seriousness aside, I have a call for help from anyone who used to read facetious comic novels in the 50s or 60s, or maybe even 70s. I remember a book that began "I was born with my mother's features and my father's fixtures," but when I did a search all I got was "Sister Paula Nielsen, Portland's transgender Christian evangelist," who apparently says that often.

I thought the book was by Max Shulman, the creator of Dobie Gillis, but I'm not certain. It may even have been The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis, which seems to be the only book on Amazon that you can't "look inside." :-( Does anybody know what it is?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> No such thing. The answer is 'thank you.'


You're right. I should simply have said 'thank you.'

Thank you.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> Thanks. I still spend the night with my aunt from time to time.. I just take my kids with me! It's a special bond, isn't it?


It is, though all I have left is one aunt, whose mind still works though her body doesn't, and who lives in Florida now. I miss them all. My aunts were very important to my sister and me when we were growing up because our mother was very prudish and we needed to learn about sex from someone. Two aunts sat down with my sister one day, and when it was my turn the same two aunts plus my sister sat me down to teach me the "facts of life."


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> It is, though all I have left is one aunt, whose mind still works though her body doesn't, and who lives in Florida now. I miss them all. My aunts were very important to my sister and me when we were growing up because our mother was very prudish and we needed to learn about sex from someone. Two aunts sat down with my sister one day, and when it was my turn the same two aunts plus my sister sat me down to teach me the "facts of life."


You were lucky. Nowadays teaching girls about sex is seen by some as encouraging them to try it!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> You were lucky. Nowadays teaching girls about sex is seen by some as encouraging them to try it!


As if teenagers need encouragement. But isn't it absurd to keep them in the dark? How do they know what not to do if they're ignorant about the entire process?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> As if teenagers need encouragement. But isn't it absurd to keep them in the dark? How do they know what not to do if they're ignorant about the entire process?


Agree!


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

This is verbal abuse. "


soloweygirl said:


> I have been reading this thread with much interest and am in awe of the strength and courage of the women that have been abused and were able to get out of that situation and turn their lives around. They are true survivors. They are also doing their best to break the cycle of abuse.
> 
> I have been waiting for one of you to make some sort of nasty comment and you and NJG certainly do not disappoint. Speaking just for myself, I have stayed away from all of your groups posts because I have had enough of your verbal abuse. I also find it odd that a group that abuses others has started a topic on domestic violence. I can only imagine the kind of violence that has gone on in your homes. I can only laugh when reading your responses to these wonderful women as it certainly shows what hypocrites you actually are.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Why are you trying to bait some people who may have any number of good reasons for making no remarks here?


Cindy S said:


> Does anyone besides me find it odd that the women of the right with whom we all spar periodically have nothing to say in support of the victims of domestic violence?


 :hunf:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

I don't know if it's been covered already, but I have a comment to make about my personal experience with the judicial system.

After my ex showed up at my house at 2:00 am, heaving my belongings into my yard (that he had refused to give me for two years) and screaming "I should have killed you when I had the chance" I sought a restraining order. The judge very reluctantly granted one, but not until he gave me a lecture on how he was tired of issuing restraining orders to women who were not really threatened, but who simply wanted to punish men.

Really?


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> While I agree that youngsters who are taken into prostitution long before they even know what the sex trade is should be rescued there are women who choose to prostitute themselves. In that case it is a business like any other, performance art, if you will.


I hope you are being sarcastic when you say prostitution may be a sort of performance art. It disgusts me to read that you think there is any group of prostitutes who shouldn't be rescued.


----------



## Joan Thelma (Nov 18, 2011)

If anything threatens women it is the MALE Judges and politicians that make these laws (after so many lawsuits against Law Enforcement and Municipalities demanded to do) and the DON"T inforce them.

Women today are educated enough to stand up and start speaking publically against some of these anti-women decisions being made in the Courtroom.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

damemary said:


> Me and my big mouth.


Indeed. Why bait people you know will make unpleasant remarks here? This hardly seems appropriate given the subject of this topic.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> Does anyone besides me find it odd that the women of the right with whom we all spar periodically have nothing to say in support of the victims of domestic violence?


Are you trying to bait the women of the right? Why try to bait them into coming here if they don't feel like it? As i understand it, attendance isn't mandatory.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> Apparently you have not stayed away from our posts, you just said that you have been reading this thread.
> You had just managed to refrain from spewing your ugliness.
> Please, consider yourself dismissed.


This is verbal abuse.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> They have more important things to discuss, like who's lying, how many lies they've told, and who's going to accuse the liars of lying.


This is verbal abuse.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> The Talking Dead.


This is verbal abuse.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Joan Thelma said:


> If anything threatens women it is the MALE Judges and politicians that make these laws (after so many lawsuits against Law Enforcement and Municipalities demanded to do) and the DON"T inforce them.
> 
> Women today are educated enough to stand up and start speaking publically against some of these anti-women decisions being made in the Courtroom.


I don't know if it is still policy, but at one time the Phoenix police would take BOTH parties to jail when there was a call about domestic violence. I would agree that there are times when it would be difficult for the police to really know WHO was lying, but it effectively discouraged women from making that call. Crazy.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I am sorry I brought it back--- I hadn't read the thread for sometime as I had not been able to spend much time on line and clicked in -Have had some 'stuff on my mind and saw how absolutely stupid it was and replied. I should have left it until I had read the whole thread. I hope I didn't cause too much trouble. I am sorry though. However, that being said, (and I meant it) - there are a lot of deliberately nasty things on these threads - and I wasn't trying to cause trouble. YOu have mentioned it more than once -- that is the reason I am explaining. It was a mistake -- and that is all I am going to say about it.


You should be sorry. The practice of verbal abuse on the political topics doesn't need any encouragement.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I don't know if it's been covered already, but I have a comment to make about my personal experience with the judicial system.
> 
> After my ex showed up at my house at 2:00 am, heaving my belongings into my yard (that he had refused to give me for two years) and screaming "I should have killed you when I had the chance" I sought a restraining order. The judge very reluctantly granted one, but not until he gave me a lecture on how he was tired of issuing restraining orders to women who were not really threatened, but who simply wanted to punish men.
> 
> Really?


Does this judge have a lifetime job? Maybe his lifetime should be shortened, like to three days.

I'm tired of reading about judges who are divorced from reality but who simply want to punish women.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

damemary said:


> I think the most ignorant repubs have been scorned and ridiculed as never before, but I truly wonder if they 'get it' yet.


Let's be sure to never miss an opportunity to be snide. It's so appropriate here. NOT.


----------



## dawn1960 (Jan 5, 2014)

This has been a very interesting thread to read - for the most part. I feel that each of us should be open-minded and non-judgemental; willing to learn and not staying entrenched in the notion that victims of abuse are somehow enabling or accepting of their abuse. It is a multi-faceted, complex issue that can be a product of a much wider inequality that prevails in most societies.
Our Prime Minister, David Cameron, once addressed a woman in parliament as"dear" in a most condescending manner and a way in which he would never have addressed a male adversary. This clearly demonstrates the lack of respect that women encounter from those in power.

I am posting a link, not sure if it will be available outside of the UK, giving an historical perspective to women voicing their opinions. For those who are interested, Mary Beard is a professor of classics and her lectures and programmes always hugely interesting.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search?q=Oh%20Do%20Shut%20Up%20Dear!%20Mary%20Beard%20on%20the%20Public%20Voice%20of%20Women


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> They do have a marketable skill, obviously. It just may be one you do not have.


This is verbal abuse. The person you made this remark to needs to be educated, not insulted. whether you think she deserves to be or not.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I think all you left out was asexual, which few people will admit to. But you're right that the other subdesignations, which don't depend on the obvious, are definitely too much information, even for extended family.
> 
> As a knitter, I find it useful to know before a baby is born which side the buttonholes should go on and whether or not to make a dress. As for the rest, that can wait until the child is old enough to know its own sex.
> 
> ...


I have no idea about that, Empress, I wonder if you are involved with goodreads.com? They have groups filled with people who are great at identifying that sort of phrase and book titles... I would give goodreads a shot.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> This is verbal abuse. The person you made this remark to needs to be educated, not insulted. whether you think she deserves to be or not.


Who made you the verbal abuse police? You are very, very annoying this morning. Monitor thyself!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Does this judge have a lifetime job? Maybe his lifetime should be shortened, like to three days.
> 
> I'm tired of reading about judges who are divorced from reality but who simply want to punish women.


We elect judges in Arizona, but it's difficult to track them all and try to figure out where they stand unless you are intimately involved with the courts. We DO have a group of attorneys who publish information and recommendations on judicial performance around election time, but the sad fact is that many, many people don't bother to vote on judges. A candidate for Attorney General, for example, might get 100,000 votes in a particular district while a judge can win with 1,000. People don't realize the enormous power judges have - or that they have almost no oversight. We pay attention to what a president does when there is a Supreme Court vacancy, but don't seem to realize how huge the number of local judges there are, or how important their decisions are because they are the closest most of us get to the justice system.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

dawn1960 said:


> This has been a very interesting thread to read - for the most part. I feel that each of us should be open-minded and non-judgemental; willing to learn and not staying entrenched in the notion that victims of abuse are somehow enabling or accepting of their abuse. It is a multi-faceted, complex issue that can be a product of a much wider inequality that prevails in most societies.
> Our Prime Minister, David Cameron, once addressed a woman in parliament as"dear" in a most condescending manner and a way in which he would never have addressed a male adversary. This clearly demonstrates the lack of respect that women encounter from those in power.
> 
> I am posting a link, not sure if it will be available outside of the UK, giving an historical perspective to women voicing their opinions. For those who are interested, Mary Beard is a professor of classics and her lectures and programmes always hugely interesting.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search?q=Oh%20Do%20Shut%20Up%20Dear!%20Mary%20Beard%20on%20the%20Public%20Voice%20of%20Women


It's available only in the UK. Youtube has about a minute of it, at 



 , but there are a few of her talks on Roman emperors which one day I'll sit down and watch.

As to calling a woman "dear," I have a story to beat that one. When I became pregnant, I was referred to a highly-thought-of ob-gyn. I had no complaints about him, but at one visit my husband came with me and afterward ask "Does he always call you honey?" I *had not noticed* that he called me that, but DH picked it up a few times. At the next office visit, I noticed the "honey" and asked whether he called all his patients by that name. His face literally turned red and he began to shout at me - I don't remember exactly what he said but apparently at least one woman before me had complained, and possibly even brought a lawsuit. (This was in the mid-1970s and feminism was in full swing in the US.) I left very quickly and later told my GP about the incident. He was horrified that any doctor would call his patients "honey" and referred me to another ob-gyn, who was an Englishman, somewhat formal, who always called me Mrs. Lastname.

What bothers me most in recalling the first doctor is that I didn't notice he was doing anything wrong; it took a man to catch that.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> We elect judges in Arizona, but it's difficult to track them all and try to figure out where they stand unless you are intimately involved with the courts. We DO have a group of attorneys who publish information and recommendations on judicial performance around election time, but the sad fact is that many, many people don't bother to vote on judges. A candidate for Attorney General, for example, might get 100,000 votes in a particular district while a judge can win with 1,000. People don't realize the enormous power judges have - or that they have almost no oversight. We pay attention to what a president does when there is a Supreme Court vacancy, but don't seem to realize how huge the number of local judges there are, or how important their decisions are because they are the closest most of us get to the justice system.


We have a similar system for appointing judges, and probably a similar outcome. But usually it's just one judge running in all parties, so there's no choice anyway.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> This is verbal abuse. The person you made this remark to needs to be educated, not insulted. whether you think she deserves to be or not.


I am not sure how you see that as verbal abuse. To suggest that someone is not good in one area of activity is hardly abuse. 
This person had just relegated a whole industry as being without any other marketable skills and a signifcant percentage of people as being unable to develop coping skills and and compensation for the abuse we suffered as children and overcame as adults. 
It is quite obvious that while some people may feel sidelined and be coerced into entering the sex industry due to the injuries felt at the hands of pedophiles there are many more of us who battle our way to working and living as mainstream members of society. 
One more thing, how about those JOHNS. Why don't they get labeled as the deficients they are?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> I am not sure how you see that as verbal abuse. To suggest that someone is not good in one area of activity is hardly abuse.
> This person had just relegated a whole industry as being without any other marketable skills and a signifcant percentage of people as being unable to develop coping skills and and compensation for the abuse we suffered as children and overcame as adults.
> It is quite obvious that while some people may feel sidelined and be coerced into entering the sex industry due to the injuries felt at the hands of pedophiles there are many more of us who battle our way to working and living as mainstream members of society.
> One more thing, how about those JOHNS. Why don't they get labeled as the deficients they are?


Because so many of them have high-level political contacts, or _are_ high level politicians themselves.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> I have no idea about that, Empress, I wonder if you are involved with goodreads.com? They have groups filled with people who are great at identifying that sort of phrase and book titles... I would give goodreads a shot.


I signed up at goodreads but never went back. I'll look at the groups.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> It's available only in the UK. Youtube has about a minute of it, at
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ain't it the truth! We have been minimized and trivialized our whole lives - it's the norm. I'm glad your hubby caught that little language thing - but I can't help point out that most men would notice the "honey" thing out of jealousy or possessiveness that THEY have been taught. When I came home from a job interview, fuming at having been asked "what kind of birth control do you use," my husband wanted to punch the guy out. NOT because it was an affront to my personal privacy, but because it suggested a sexual innuendo spoken to HIS (possessive emphasized) wife. Sick.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Thanks Smartie Cooke for bring up the Johns. No prostitution without the customer. Plus since sex is so freely available thru acceptable social means, the prostitutes are usually dealing with some very rough trade. But except for the number of women who were coerced into turning tricks, I have to assume that the others made a choice, for better or for worse. And since it is the oldest profession, I make no value judgements.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I signed up at goodreads but never went back. I'll look at the groups.


That was where I found the title The Twits.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> Thanks Smartie Cooke for bring up the Johns. No prostitution without the customer. Plus since sex is so freely available thru acceptable social means, the prostitutes are usually dealing with some very rough trade. But except for the number of women who were coerced into turning tricks, I have to assume that the others made a choice, for better or for worse. And since it is the oldest profession, I make no value judgements.


My sense of time is not so good, but, a decade or so ago there was lots of publicity about "nice, normal" middle class women prostituting themselves as they became single or developed a need for excitement that brought them to making money and having sex with strangers simultaneously. There are all sorts of reasons that people choose to go into the sex biz. 
That is not to deny the horrific crimes of selling small children, deceiving young runaways, kidnap for the sex trade... real crimes that we could invest a whole lot more money in if we just stopped playing a losing game of "war on drugs". Bleep Ronald Reagan.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> That was where I found the title The Twits.


I wish you hadn't told me that. I thought wow, what a good memory she has.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I wish you hadn't told me that. I thought wow, what a good memory she has.


LOL, I did have to think twice before admitting it.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

dawn1960 said:


> This has been a very interesting thread to read - for the most part. I feel that each of us should be open-minded and non-judgemental; willing to learn and not staying entrenched in the notion that victims of abuse are somehow enabling or accepting of their abuse. It is a multi-faceted, complex issue that can be a product of a much wider inequality that prevails in most societies.
> Our Prime Minister, David Cameron, once addressed a woman in parliament as"dear" in a most condescending manner and a way in which he would never have addressed a male adversary. This clearly demonstrates the lack of respect that women encounter from those in power.
> 
> I am posting a link, not sure if it will be available outside of the UK, giving an historical perspective to women voicing their opinions. For those who are interested, Mary Beard is a professor of classics and her lectures and programmes always hugely interesting.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search?q=Oh%20Do%20Shut%20Up%20Dear!%20Mary%20Beard%20on%20the%20Public%20Voice%20of%20Women


Thank you, Dawn, women do that to other women as well. Sweetie, honey, ... it is all in the tone.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Because so many of them have high-level political contacts, or _are_ high level politicians themselves.


You are right, I suppose. It is always astounding to me that some prostitutes earn so much money. That woman who organized "Breaking Free" was on with another advocate, for a different aspect of the trade, the other night and one or the other of them mentioned $450./hour. 
I know attorneys who work for less than that. No comment about the connection there.


----------



## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

I'm with you there about the baking soda and never use it; just baking powder. My aunt made some lovely fluffy scones that tasted like soap from baking soda and we all threw up ...thank you for the laugh about pikelets being little fish other lady; i will call my pikelets "baby pikes" from now on, and will make them fish-shaped (I'm such a child) I erupted a mouthful of coffee reading the pikelet one!


Knitry said:


> That's because there aren't any. I could never quite understand why people loved those baking soda flavored bits of dough. Yuck.
> 
> But they do. Go figure.


----------



## dawn1960 (Jan 5, 2014)

Janet Cooke said:


> Thank you, Dawn, women do that to other women as well. Sweetie, honey, ... it is all in the tone.


Terms of endearments are not in themselves wrong and can, in fact, break down some barriers in some situations. However, it speaks volumes, in my opinion, when the person holding the country's highest office unashamedly shows contempt for a woman who should be treated as his equal.

Hope this link works - it gives a better account than I could. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/apr/28/david-cameron-calm-down-dear


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## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

One of my sons tried to help a teenage girl when he was 10 years old, by taking her to family-planning about her suspected pregnancy to her boyfriend who was 16. they got her on the pill, and confirmed 'no pregnancy".

Unfortunately, she was too psychologically-damaged from having been sexually molested by her father and his brothers, as were her many sisters, and my son had to stop getting involved with her problems, as her life was a train-wreck - she knew no other way.

Later on, he learned to say to girls who complained their boyfriends were nasty, in front of their boyfriends in some sick jealous-making game, "Is there a door on your apartment?"

Which shut them up and stopped his head getting kicked in with their sick games. I would like to say he's 38 now, and has created a project which is of lasting benefit to humanity (education).

I've learned to distinguish between the genuine and the types who recount the details of their beatings with ill-concealed relish and will repay your rescue-attempts with treachery.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

omnivore2 said:


> I'm with you there about the baking soda and never use it; just baking powder. My aunt made some lovely fluffy scones that tasted like soap from baking soda and we all threw up ...thank you for the laugh about pikelets being little fish other lady; i will call my pikelets "baby pikes" from now on, and will make them fish-shaped (I'm such a child) I erupted a mouthful of coffee reading the pikelet one!


I'm the "other lady." Always happy to make someone laugh, but I still don't know what pikelets are.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Why are you trying to bait some people who may have any number of good reasons for making no remarks here?
> 
> :hunf:


It was NOT my intent to bait anyone, I was curious, I probably should have PMed someone.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Are you trying to bait the women of the right? Why try to bait them into coming here if they don't feel like it? As i understand it, attendance isn't mandatory.


I got your point the first time


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

SQM said:


> Who made you the verbal abuse police? You are very, very annoying this morning. Monitor thyself!


Can't argue with you on this one

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

omnivore2 said:


> One of my sons tried to help a teenage girl when he was 10 years old, by taking her to family-planning about her suspected pregnancy to her boyfriend who was 16. they got her on the pill, and confirmed 'no pregnancy".
> 
> Unfortunately, she was too psychologically-damaged from having been sexually molested by her father and his brothers, as were her many sisters, and my son had to stop getting involved with her problems, as her life was a train-wreck - she knew no other way.
> 
> ...


You sound proud of your son. A 10-year-old boy who would help girl that way has got to grow up into quite a man.

Did you see the TV series Top of the Lake, about a pregnant 12-year old New Zealand girl who goes missing? It could almost have been that girl your son helped out. If memory serves, the abuser was in the family.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> I got your point the first time


MIB is just on a roll, it is a periodic event. 
Please don't feel that you are accountable to her. 
When she is good, she is very, very good...


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Janet Cooke said:


> MIB is just on a roll, it is a periodic event.
> Please don't feel that you are accountable to her.
> When she is good, she is very, very good...


You don't need to make excuses for her, she is accountable for herself, if she is having a bad day I am sorry, but step on my toes and I step back. Just the way I am, however I am insulted that she thought I was trying to bait, she is entitled to her opinion even though she is completely wrong on this point. I hope her day, or week or life gets better. I have enjoyed her posts in the past, but will skip them from now on.


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## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

little sweet pancakes, buttered and sometimes with jam as well. I tried to download the recipe but it wouldn't sorry : (


Poor Purl said:


> I'm the "other lady." Always happy to make someone laugh, but I still don't know what pikelets are.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

omnivore2 said:


> little sweet pancakes, buttered and sometimes with jam as well


They look good and pretty easy to make, except for the fish shape. :roll: Thank you.


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## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

Thank you; he is pretty amazing; I was walking down the street with him when he was 9 years old, and a male made some sexual remark at me. My son stopped and said "that's my MOTHER and you're to treat her with respect". The rough guy said "sorry, mate". at that point, I knew my 9 year old son was a MAN and more of a man than most men will ever be. I didn't see that film; it sounded a bit miserable ...


Poor Purl said:


> You sound proud of your son. A 10-year-old boy who would help girl that way has got to grow up into quite a man.
> 
> Did you see the TV series Top of the Lake, about a pregnant 12-year old New Zealand girl who goes missing? It could almost have been that girl your son helped out. If memory serves, the abuser was in the family.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I have no idea, but I'm intrigued. Share your discoveries.



Poor Purl said:


> I think all you left out was asexual, which few people will admit to. But you're right that the other subdesignations, which don't depend on the obvious, are definitely too much information, even for extended family.
> 
> As a knitter, I find it useful to know before a baby is born which side the buttonholes should go on and whether or not to make a dress. As for the rest, that can wait until the child is old enough to know its own sex.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

What a wonderful story. I had a 'second mother' aunt, but she died a virgin at 95. Maybe I should have told her the facts of life.



Poor Purl said:


> It is, though all I have left is one aunt, whose mind still works though her body doesn't, and who lives in Florida now. I miss them all. My aunts were very important to my sister and me when we were growing up because our mother was very prudish and we needed to learn about sex from someone. Two aunts sat down with my sister one day, and when it was my turn the same two aunts plus my sister sat me down to teach me the "facts of life."


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Time for a picket line in that judge's face.



DGreen said:


> I don't know if it's been covered already, but I have a comment to make about my personal experience with the judicial system.
> 
> After my ex showed up at my house at 2:00 am, heaving my belongings into my yard (that he had refused to give me for two years) and screaming "I should have killed you when I had the chance" I sought a restraining order. The judge very reluctantly granted one, but not until he gave me a lecture on how he was tired of issuing restraining orders to women who were not really threatened, but who simply wanted to punish men.
> 
> Really?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It doesn't seem to be available here in USA. So glad to know women of the world are united in many ways. Thank you.



dawn1960 said:


> This has been a very interesting thread to read - for the most part. I feel that each of us should be open-minded and non-judgemental; willing to learn and not staying entrenched in the notion that victims of abuse are somehow enabling or accepting of their abuse. It is a multi-faceted, complex issue that can be a product of a much wider inequality that prevails in most societies.
> Our Prime Minister, David Cameron, once addressed a woman in parliament as"dear" in a most condescending manner and a way in which he would never have addressed a male adversary. This clearly demonstrates the lack of respect that women encounter from those in power.
> 
> I am posting a link, not sure if it will be available outside of the UK, giving an historical perspective to women voicing their opinions. For those who are interested, Mary Beard is a professor of classics and her lectures and programmes always hugely interesting.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search?q=Oh%20Do%20Shut%20Up%20Dear!%20Mary%20Beard%20on%20the%20Public%20Voice%20of%20Women


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I am ashamed to admit that I vote against all sitting judges running for reelection because it's so hard to figure out who the bad guys are. Suggestions, please.



DGreen said:


> We elect judges in Arizona, but it's difficult to track them all and try to figure out where they stand unless you are intimately involved with the courts. We DO have a group of attorneys who publish information and recommendations on judicial performance around election time, but the sad fact is that many, many people don't bother to vote on judges. A candidate for Attorney General, for example, might get 100,000 votes in a particular district while a judge can win with 1,000. People don't realize the enormous power judges have - or that they have almost no oversight. We pay attention to what a president does when there is a Supreme Court vacancy, but don't seem to realize how huge the number of local judges there are, or how important their decisions are because they are the closest most of us get to the justice system.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put.



Janet Cooke said:


> I am not sure how you see that as verbal abuse. To suggest that someone is not good in one area of activity is hardly abuse.
> This person had just relegated a whole industry as being without any other marketable skills and a signifcant percentage of people as being unable to develop coping skills and and compensation for the abuse we suffered as children and overcame as adults.
> It is quite obvious that while some people may feel sidelined and be coerced into entering the sex industry due to the injuries felt at the hands of pedophiles there are many more of us who battle our way to working and living as mainstream members of society.
> One more thing, how about those JOHNS. Why don't they get labeled as the deficients they are?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> MIB is just on a roll, it is a periodic event.
> Please don't feel that you are accountable to her.
> When she is good, she is very, very good...


 :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Where does the name come from? Once again proof of two countries divided by a common language.



omnivore2 said:


> little sweet pancakes, buttered and sometimes with jam as well. I tried to download the recipe but it wouldn't sorry : (


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Bravo for raising a fine young man.



omnivore2 said:


> Thank you; he is pretty amazing; I was walking down the street with him when he was 9 years old, and a male made some sexual remark at me. My son stopped and said "that's my MOTHER and you're to treat her with respect". The rough guy said "sorry, mate". at that point, I knew my 9 year old son was a MAN and more of a man than most men will ever be. I didn't see that film; it sounded a bit miserable ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

omnivore2 said:


> Thank you; he is pretty amazing; I was walking down the street with him when he was 9 years old, and a male made some sexual remark at me. My son stopped and said "that's my MOTHER and you're to treat her with respect". The rough guy said "sorry, mate". at that point, I knew my 9 year old son was a MAN and more of a man than most men will ever be. I didn't see that film; it sounded a bit miserable ...


I don't know whether I'd call it miserable, but it certainly was odd. It was a detective story, and there were an awful lot of characters to keep track of. But the ending was less bad than I expected.


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> Thanks Smartie Cooke for bring up the Johns. No prostitution without the customer. Plus since sex is so freely available thru acceptable social means, the prostitutes are usually dealing with some very rough trade. But except for the number of women who were coerced into turning tricks, I have to assume that the others made a choice, for better or for worse. And since it is the oldest profession, I make no value judgements.


Well, there's an old saying that I think applies:

_Necessity never made a good bargain_ - Ben Franklin

I don't think of prostitution as much about "choice," even if apparently uncoerced, and even if our patriarchal society wants to promote such anti-woman lies as this. Sure, they "chose" this way of life in the same way starving people "choose" to go dumpster diving for food or begging on the streets. I doubt most prostitutes would consider those choices MORE demeaning, but rather mostly less reliable.

Recently I ran across a website where johns had posted reviews of the prostitutes they had visited at this one brothel, I think in the UK somewhere. They were unbelievably vile, and one couldn't read the 20 or so "reviews" without getting a belly fully of the contempt these men had for the women involved. Sometimes that contempt was taken out on them physically (based on their review) as in especially rough or degrading sex, otherwise just in their review or their words to the women and hopefully not otherwise.

Almost equally appalling was the incredible sense of entitlement they exhibited -- something already discussed to some extent. Those women had a role to fill and it had only to do with the men. Nothing about the women was in any way important. They could've been soft and warm robots and the en would probably not have noticed -- or cared. Utterly dehumanizing.

Several complained bitterly that they didn't get a prostitute with a thoroughly pleasing demeanor or vibrant personality. So these women were expected not only to prostitute themselves and perform all manner of sexual acts on demand, but they were expect to smile and make nice at the same time. Sure, we all appreciate good customer service, but few of us are busy degrading the other person while we're expecting that.

I came away with the chilling notion that for at least some of these men, the degradation and humiliation of the woman was essential to their own sexual experience.

NO WOMAN -- no mentally and emotionally healthy woman -- could willingly participate in that kind of degradation for any length of time. Period.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Knitry said:


> Well, there's an old saying that I think applies:
> 
> _Necessity never made a good bargain_ - Ben Franklin
> 
> ...


Thanks for expressing your opinion so clearly. 
Me? I cannot understand how anyone can go into a coal mine.


----------



## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

I want to first apologize to Purl for hijacking the thread and taking it off-track a little or a lot. For me, it's all of a piece. You can't have a society where domestic violence is rampant if you don't also have a society in which women -- any woman, all women -- can be demeaned for being women on a daily basis in a million different ways from cradle to grave, as the saying goes.

So I'm going to back away from the thread in part for that reason but also because I have other things I really need to spend time on (my own health and research in support of that), but before I do that I want to comment on something else that's been bothering me all evening last s well as all day today.

Purl, you mentioned how girl children can be raised to be independent and still fall prey to the wiles and seduction of abusive men (not your words, but close enough perhaps).

I responded with some thoughts about societal conditioning...

and then, once off line, I remembered things like those Disney movies. I was shocked when I was older and realized to what extraordinary crazy extent I held images in my mind that were put there with Cinderella -- the humble, sweet and beautiful young woman gets discovered and SAVED by her prince, and Sleeping Beauty, where the lovely young woman is also SAVED by her prince.

It was no doubt Colette dowling's incredible book, The Cinderella Complex, probably worth reading today. Or, in my case, again. I encourage people to at least read some of the reviews. In fact, here's one that is pretty interesting, in its entirety:



> If you are always picking the wrong kind of guy, this book is for you. It points out the kind of predators out there and mistakes in your ways of choosing a guy. Every woman should have this book!


Ya'll play pretty now. See you another time.


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Thanks for expressing your opinion so clearly.
> Me? I cannot understand how anyone can go into a coal mine.


I agree on that one too.

:thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You've given voice to the issues surrounding male attitudes towards women. Very powerful.



Knitry said:


> Well, there's an old saying that I think applies:
> 
> _Necessity never made a good bargain_ - Ben Franklin
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I hope you'll be back one day.



Knitry said:


> I want to first apologize to Purl for hijacking the thread and taking it off-track a little or a lot. For me, it's all of a piece. You can't have a society where domestic violence is rampant if you don't also have a society in which women -- any woman, all women -- can be demeaned for being women on a daily basis in a million different ways from cradle to grave, as the saying goes.
> 
> So I'm going to back away from the thread in part for that reason but also because I have other things I really need to spend time on (my own health and research in support of that), but before I do that I want to comment on something else that's been bothering me all evening last s well as all day today.
> 
> ...


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

damemary said:


> I hope you'll be back one day.


Oh, who could bear to stay away?


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

The saddest of women being prostituted is the sex slave trade. I have two very young friends who have started a group at their church to try to rescue girls, some really children, who were sold by their families or were taken as runaways and enslaved to be used as sex merchandise. Several groups, mostly faith based, in our area have undertaken to publicize the situation and provide safe shelters, food, clothing, and education for these rescued girls and to help them build independent lives. There is emphasis on psychological counseling to restore or create a feeling of self worth so they are not as vulnerable to being prey again.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

damemary said:


> You've given voice to the issues surrounding male attitudes towards women. Very powerful.


Wouldn't that be some male attitudes? 
It seems to me that some men just go to prostitutes because they want an uncomplicated side arrangement when they are married. Not all prostitutes deal with the dregs of society. 
It seems to me that these men going on this website to "rate" the women they were with say a whole lot more about who or what they are than about the women they are rating.

Unless these men are willing to put their identities out there as the johns I am not sure why anyone would believe what they say about rough treatment. 
What brothel is going to let a man damage the women any more than a retail outlet allows people to tear their dresses apart?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> Thanks for expressing your opinion so clearly.
> Me? I cannot understand how anyone can go into a coal mine.


or be a school principal. Some high priced call girls who freely chose the life seem okay with their career choices.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> The saddest of women being prostituted is the sex slave trade. I have two very young friends who have started a group at their church to try to rescue girls, some really children, who were sold by their families or were taken as runaways and enslaved to be used as sex merchandise. Several groups, mostly faith based, in our area have undertaken to publicize the situation and provide safe shelters, food, clothing, and education for these rescued girls and to help them build independent lives. There is emphasis on psychological counseling to restore or create a feeling of self worth so they are not as vulnerable to being prey again.


They were not prey if their parents sold them. They were victims. And I guess counseling would help with victim's mentality also.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> Wouldn't that be some male attitudes?
> It seems to me that some men just go to prostitutes because they want an uncomplicated side arrangement when they are married. Not all prostitutes deal with the dregs of society.
> It seems to me that these men going on this website to "rate" the women they were with say a whole lot more about who or what they are than about the women they are rating.
> 
> ...


I think you are wrong about brothels. There are all levels of them - some classy, some cubes. Plus not all prostitutes are in brothels. Many are on the streets with no protection. Those get the dregs. And as I mentioned earlier, since sex is so available to most men, a john would go to a hooker for the kinkier fetishes that women in relationships may not be willing to get involved in.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> I think you are wrong about brothels. There are all levels of them - some classy, some cubes. Plus not all prostitutes are in brothels. Many are on the streets with no protection. Those get the dregs. And as I mentioned earlier, since sex is so available to most men, a john would go to a hooker for the kinkier fetishes that women in relationships may not be willing to get involved in.


I understand that, SQM, I was bouncing off of DameMary's post which was in response to Knitry's post and referenced people who were rating women at a particular brothel. 
Heck, there are pimps who will damage the girls and young women who work for them.

My view is that there are many marriages that are no better than john and prostitute. 
There are women who will let their children be abused and raped to keep a paycheck coming in or because they need to have a man around. 
At least the women in the trade are honest about what they do and don't paint a pretty facade...


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

My sister-in-law was in the type of marriage you described. I don't know the full nature of the abuse, but the boyfriend would lace into my SIL's youngest son. Of course he had been boozing all day. One Thanksgiving, I had to put a stop to the abuse I was witnessing so I finally got the mother off her butt and told her that she should be protecting her kid. I refused to go to Xmas with the family that year. I was so sickened by what Janet describes. Anyway, the abuser is dead and his wife writes on Facebook what an angel he was! Some people are hopeless!

Can no longer follow sequence of events so the first part of your posting was hard to understand.

Can you explain how I differentiate between my cousin first removed and second cousin? Give an easy explanation. To make this more topic-related, I will mention that my "cousin" was very abusive. Extended family members can be the abusers - not just Hubby.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> My sister-in-law was in the type of marriage you described. I don't know the full nature of the abuse, but the boyfriend would lace into my SIL's youngest son. Of course he had been boozing all day. One Thanksgiving, I had to put a stop to the abuse I was witnessing so I finally got the mother off her butt and told her that she should be protecting her kid. I refused to go to Xmas with the family that year. I was so sickened by what Janet describes. Anyway, the abuser is dead and his wife writes on Facebook what an angel he was! Some people are hopeless!
> 
> Can no longer follow sequence of events so the first part of your posting was hard to understand.
> 
> Can you explain how I differentiate between my cousin first removed and second cousin? Give an easy explanation. To make this more topic-related, I will mention that my "cousin" was very abusive. Extended family members can be the abusers - not just Hubby.


First cousin once removed is your first cousin's off spring. 
Second cousin is someone you wish you didn't know.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitry said:


> I want to first apologize to Purl for hijacking the thread and taking it off-track a little or a lot. For me, it's all of a piece. You can't have a society where domestic violence is rampant if you don't also have a society in which women -- any woman, all women -- can be demeaned for being women on a daily basis in a million different ways from cradle to grave, as the saying goes.
> 
> So I'm going to back away from the thread in part for that reason but also because I have other things I really need to spend time on (my own health and research in support of that), but before I do that I want to comment on something else that's been bothering me all evening last s well as all day today.
> 
> ...


There's no reason to apologize, and certainly not to me. The thread doesn't belong to me; I simply wrote the first message. It belongs to all the women who have bravely posted their stories, the posters who have worked with battered women - everyone who has posted here as added to our understanding.

The direction you've taken it in - the devaluation of women - is very relevant here. Few men would beat women if they'd been raised to see that women are as valuable as men. The fact that it's mainly women who prostitute themselves to make a living is a consequence of that same devaluation.

I hope you don't plan to stay away, and I'm going to send you this as a PM to ask you to stick around.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> First cousin once removed is your first cousin's off spring.
> Second cousin is someone you wish you didn't know.


I thought my first cousin's kids were my second cousins.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitry said:


> I want to first apologize to Purl for hijacking the thread and taking it off-track a little or a lot. For me, it's all of a piece. You can't have a society where domestic violence is rampant if you don't also have a society in which women -- any woman, all women -- can be demeaned for being women on a daily basis in a million different ways from cradle to grave, as the saying goes.
> 
> So I'm going to back away from the thread in part for that reason but also because I have other things I really need to spend time on (my own health and research in support of that), but before I do that I want to comment on something else that's been bothering me all evening last s well as all day today.
> 
> ...


And if you want a paradigm for the ideal American woman, read "Little Women" by Louisa May Alcott.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> First cousin once removed is your first cousin's off spring.
> Second cousin is someone you wish you didn't know.


I was going to answer this, but yours is much better.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I thought my first cousin's kids were my second cousins.


Then you thought wrong. Second cousins are cousins of cousins.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Then what is third cousin twice removed?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Then what is third cousin twice removed?


A perfect stranger.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Then what is third cousin twice removed?


A perfect stranger.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Very worthwile activities for the groups. Thanks for the information.



MarilynKnits said:


> The saddest of women being prostituted is the sex slave trade. I have two very young friends who have started a group at their church to try to rescue girls, some really children, who were sold by their families or were taken as runaways and enslaved to be used as sex merchandise. Several groups, mostly faith based, in our area have undertaken to publicize the situation and provide safe shelters, food, clothing, and education for these rescued girls and to help them build independent lives. There is emphasis on psychological counseling to restore or create a feeling of self worth so they are not as vulnerable to being prey again.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> First cousin once removed is your first cousin's off spring.
> Second cousin is someone you wish you didn't know.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## dawn1960 (Jan 5, 2014)

Knitry said:


> I want to first apologize to Purl for hijacking the thread and taking it off-track a little or a lot. For me, it's all of a piece. You can't have a society where domestic violence is rampant if you don't also have a society in which women -- any woman, all women -- can be demeaned for being women on a daily basis in a million different ways from cradle to grave, as the saying goes.
> 
> So I'm going to back away from the thread in part for that reason but also because I have other things I really need to spend time on (my own health and research in support of that), but before I do that I want to comment on something else that's been bothering me all evening last s well as all day today.
> 
> ...


Thank you for making these salient arguments so well and succinctly. As you say so well, societal conditioning is fundamental to the behaviours that are exhibited in DV.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> I thought my first cousin's kids were my second cousins.


Do you want to know them?

http://www.genealogy.com/16_cousn.html


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> A perfect stranger.


 :thumbup:


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

DGreen said:


> And if you want a paradigm for the ideal American woman, read "Little Women" by Louisa May Alcott.


I am not sure that it is confined to American, but, yes.

The "rule of thumb" and subordination of women came long before Disney was propagandizing about women being saved by a wonderful prince. 
I think that the stories are popular because they support the view not because they create it. 
Those old Disney movies are a product of their time. I sat down to watch Peter Pan recently and was appalled that I had forgotten how the American Indians were depicted in that film.

Back to the rescue line of thinking, though, how different is this from religions that portray people as powerless and God as the savior and disciplinarian? 
It seems to me that it is simple human nature to portray people this way and since women developed the homebody position and were less independent due to childbearing and other physiological differences the cultural norms were that male strength determined dominance. 
As time goes on and that strength is less necessary for independence it will change. 
In the meantime, of course, certain Neanderthals will become more desperate to dominate through brute strength rather than develop partnerships.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

Joan Thelma said:


> If anything threatens women it is the MALE Judges and politicians that make these laws (after so many lawsuits against Law Enforcement and Municipalities demanded to do) and the DON"T inforce them.
> 
> Women today are educated enough to stand up and start speaking publically against some of these anti-women decisions being made in the Courtroom.


 :thumbup: It is reprehensible, but in my county, the judicial system and law enforcement are, in my opinion, criminally negligent in their treatment of DV against women. According to what I read and see on the news, elder abuse and child abuse are taken seriously. Why not abuse against women?


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

kathycam said:


> :thumbup: It is reprehensible, but in my county, the judicial system and law enforcement are, in my opinion, criminally negligent in their treatment of DV against women. According to what I read and see on the news, elder abuse and child abuse are taken seriously. Why not abuse against women?


Part of the reason is, of course, that so many women have such a hard time breaking that bond. Just as we have seen expressed here in "nobody has any excuse these days to stay in an abusive relationship" (paraphrased) MEN certainly cannot understand all of the various reasons that women return just as people not addicted to cigarettes or heroin or alcohol do not understand how hard it is to break free. 
Police officers are in one of the most dangerous circumstances of their careers when they respond to domestic violence calls. They go through that only to be called to the same address with the same people the next month. 
Should they understand that it takes time to move forward? Should they understand how frightening it is to find a job and a place to live, create a life? Sure. They are human, too. 
Then again, there are those who are wife beaters themselves...


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## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

I reckon that when men visit prostitutes and say vile things, they are just projecting their self-disgust that they have to pay for some woman to act as though she likes him, and don't have loving decent relationships. This might make them feel like losers, so they attack the female, who is like a system to process their "sexual sewage".

I saw a talk-show where a woman was preening herself about lots of men finding her desirable and giving her expensive things. You should've seen her face fall, like a hurt and vulnerable child, when the psychologist said "they don't like YOU; they like what they can USE you for".

I babysat for a prostitute when I was a student, and had to dump her fast as she was a treacherous sicko involved in crime and attempting to drag me into it by lies and manipulation. So much crime associated with this. What an education for naive young me. Shudder.


Knitry said:


> Well, there's an old saying that I think applies:
> 
> _Necessity never made a good bargain_ - Ben Franklin
> 
> ...


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

omnivore2 said:


> I reckon that when men visit prostitutes and say vile things, they are just projecting their self-disgust that they have to pay for some woman to act as though she likes him, and don't have loving decent relationships. This might make them feel like losers, so they attack the female, who is like a system to process their "sexual sewage".
> 
> I saw a talk-show where a woman was preening herself about lots of men finding her desirable and giving her expensive things. You should've seen her face fall when the psychologist said "they don't like YOU they like what they can USE you for"


Sexual sewage? Is that the same sperm that makes those precious little beings that should never, ever, no not ever, be terminated in the uterus?

As many psychologists are as full of chit as anyone else. What kind of helpful statement was that to make? 
How could that person possible know why men were giving gifts? 
A man can get a bj on the corner for $20. or less if that is what they want.


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## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

The psychologist knew because the woman said she provided the men with sex.

The "sexual sewage" referred to the action of the men having illicit sex like a dirty secret that they are not socially proud of.

As for abortion, I understand a high percentage of conceptions are lost, so it seems nature can be ruthless. If human life is sacred, then the anti-abortionists should be concerned to stop wars, drunk-driving, etc ... as those babies grow up to be considered expendable by their governments who turn them into soldiers.


Janet Cooke said:


> Sexual sewage? Is that the same sperm that makes those precious little beings that should never, ever, no not ever, be terminated in the uterus?
> 
> As many psychologists are as full of chit as anyone else. What kind of helpful statement was that to make?
> How could that person possible know why men were giving gifts?
> A man can get a bj on the corner for $20. or less if that is what they want.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

omnivore2 said:


> I reckon that when men visit prostitutes and say vile things, they are just projecting their self-disgust that they have to pay for some woman to act as though she likes him, and don't have loving decent relationships. This might make them feel like losers, so they attack the female, who is like a system to process their "sexual sewage".
> 
> I saw a talk-show where a woman was preening herself about lots of men finding her desirable and giving her expensive things. You should've seen her face fall when the psychologist said "they don't like YOU they like what they can USE you for"


It's probably more complicated than self-disgust. Some people find inflicting pain to be sexually arousing; some find that "talking dirty" makes sex more interesting to them. But you're right that the female (not "woman" ) is just a receptacle for their "sexual sewage."


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## K2P2 knitter (Jan 31, 2013)

We lived next door to a young couple many years ago and could hear the violet arguments all times of the night and day. One day my DH was in the yard and saw the man next door out in his yard so my DH went over to speak with him. You know how men get to talking well my DH said something about the violent arguments we kept hearing when the guy from next door piped up and stated "well my father beat my mother and if it was good enough for him it is good enough for me". Well just so happens one day the girl was driving her SUV when the guy started hitting her, That was his BIG mistake because there happened to be a police car next to them when the police jumped out of their car and pulled him out of the SUV. The guy told the police "not to worry she won't press charges she never does". The policeman replied sorry buddy it isn't up to her we saw you hitting her so she doesn't have to press charges we can. The girl came over to see me after she got home and told me that was all she needed was to have him in jail for awhile so she could get away before he got out of jail. She left before he got home not sure where she went but really hope things worked out for her. I think that is what most of the guys count on is either the woman won't press charges because it will only cause her more problems when he gets out or that they are afraid of anyone knowing they live in a domestic violent situation.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Sexual sewage? Is that the same sperm that makes those precious little beings that should never, ever, no not ever, be terminated in the uterus?
> 
> As many psychologists are as full of chit as anyone else. What kind of helpful statement was that to make?
> How could that person possible know why men were giving gifts?
> A man can get a bj on the corner for $20. or less if that is what they want.


What I understand from the phrase "sexual sewage" is not the literal fluid men discharge but the filth that they'd like to be dumping onto whatever female is handy: verbal, corporal, or sexual. Woody Allen once said that sex is dirty if you're doing it right. And who would know better than Woody Allen?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

K2P2 knitter said:


> We lived next door to a young couple many years ago and could hear the violet arguments all times of the night and day. One day my DH was in the yard and saw the man next door out in his yard so my DH went over to speak with him. You know how men get to talking well my DH said something about the violent arguments we kept hearing when the guy from next door piped up and stated "well my father beat my mother and if it was good enough for him it is good enough for me". Well just so happens one day the girl was driving her SUV when the guy started hitting her, That was his BIG mistake because there happened to be a police car next to them when the police jumped out of their car and pulled him out of the SUV. The guy told the police "not to worry she won't press charges she never does". The policeman replied sorry buddy it isn't up to her we saw you hitting her so she doesn't have to press charges we can. The girl came over to see me after she got home and told me that was all she needed was to have him in jail for awhile so she could get away before he got out of jail. She left before he got home not sure where she went but really hope things worked out for her. I think that is what most of the guys count on is either the woman won't press charges because it will only cause her more problems when he gets out or that they are afraid of anyone knowing they live in a domestic violent situation.


Amazing. This guy didn't think he was doing anything wrong, not to your DH or to the police, and certainly to his girlfriend. Did he think he was entitled to a living punching bag to use whenever he needed it?


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Amazing. This guy didn't think he was doing anything wrong, not to your DH or to the police, and certainly to his girlfriend. Did he think he was entitled to a living punching bag to use whenever he needed it?


Just more of that sewage.


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## K2P2 knitter (Jan 31, 2013)

He told my DH that in his opinion yes that he was entitled to a hit, kick or do whatever he wanted to his girlfriend. My DH told him you better never let me see you because I will just have to try it out on you just to see how you like it.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Strange how some people repeat what they grew up with because that is what they know, and others do everything within their power to make things better for their family and not repeat what they grew up with. 

My parents never showed affection to my sister or I and never said I love you to us. I was about 12 years old when I saw a friend get a hug and an I love you before leaving for school and I was amazed. I decided right there that someday I would have that too and I did with my family and still do today.

I guess I just wonder what makes some want something different and some just continue on the same path.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

NJG said:


> Strange how some people repeat what they grew up with because that is what they know, and others do everything within their power to make things better for their family and not repeat what they grew up with.
> 
> My parents never showed affection to my sister or I and never said I love you to us. I was about 12 years old when I saw a friend get a hug and an I love you before leaving for school and I was amazed. I decided right there that someday I would have that too and I did with my family and still do today.
> 
> I guess I just wonder what makes some want something different and some just continue on the same path.


Lack of curiosity and thinking? 
My family of origin was the same way, MY family shares "I love you" on a daily basis... you just never know when those may be the last words you hear.


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## K2P2 knitter (Jan 31, 2013)

On the other side of this I had to deal with a 911 operator that assumed I was calling about domestic abuse but was calling because I needed an ambulance for my DH. My DH told me he wasn't feeling good and was going to lay down. I went into the bedroom to check on him and found him having a seizure. I called 911 for help and was met with "so what's going on there". I explained my DH was having a seizure and that he is diabetic. Only then did the 911 operator pick up the pace to get me the help I needed. She went into high speed and got EMT's and an ambulance dispatched immediately. She asked me if he was breathing and coherent. She also asked me if I could take his blood sugar but I couldn't because by that time he was in the fetal position with his arms and hands stiff. He answered every question with a very quiet "ok" but didn't understand what you were saying. He was rushed to the hospital with a 105 degree temperature and in critical condition. I understand that a lot of the calls they get are for domestic violence but sometimes it is from someone in desperate need of help for other reasons. DH is now fine. Scared me to death!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Lack of curiosity and thinking?
> My family of origin was the same way, MY family shares "I love you" on a daily basis... you just never know when those may be the last words you hear.


Good for both of us that we made that change happen.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

K2P2 knitter said:


> He told my DH that in his opinion yes that he was entitled to a hit, kick or do whatever he wanted to his girlfriend. My DH told him you better never let me see you because I will just have to try it out on you just to see how you like it.


There's the big difference between your DH and that guy. Your DH regards women as independent people; that guy sees women as property to which he can do whatever he wants. He probably didn't understand what DH was saying to him.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> Do you want to know them?
> 
> http://www.genealogy.com/16_cousn.html


Thanks for going to the effort to help clarify this for me. However, I seem to be lacking the cognitive ability to understand it. But I still appreciate your scholarship and online research. Now where are my Vitamin B pills?


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> Thanks for going to the effort to help clarify this for me. However, I seem to be lacking the cognitive ability to understand it. But I still appreciate your scholarship and online research. Now where are my Vitamin B pills?


Turn around and look to your left.


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

NJG said: I guess I just wonder what makes some want something different and some just continue on the same path.

I think women want to create the opposite environment for their own children and men want to be just like their dads, with all that power and control.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> What I understand from the phrase "sexual sewage" is not the literal fluid men discharge but the filth that they'd like to be dumping onto whatever female is handy: verbal, corporal, or sexual. Woody Allen once said that sex is dirty if you're doing it right. And who would know better than Woody Allen?


I have no respect for the 'man.'


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My guess is no one ever disagreed with him.



Poor Purl said:


> Amazing. This guy didn't think he was doing anything wrong, not to your DH or to the police, and certainly to his girlfriend. Did he think he was entitled to a living punching bag to use whenever he needed it?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Good husband; bad husband. And we know which is which, don't we?



K2P2 knitter said:


> He told my DH that in his opinion yes that he was entitled to a hit, kick or do whatever he wanted to his girlfriend. My DH told him you better never let me see you because I will just have to try it out on you just to see how you like it.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I have no answer but it gives me hope that it is so.



NJG said:


> Strange how some people repeat what they grew up with because that is what they know, and others do everything within their power to make things better for their family and not repeat what they grew up with.
> 
> My parents never showed affection to my sister or I and never said I love you to us. I was about 12 years old when I saw a friend get a hug and an I love you before leaving for school and I was amazed. I decided right there that someday I would have that too and I did with my family and still do today.
> 
> I guess I just wonder what makes some want something different and some just continue on the same path.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I have no respect for the 'man.'


Nor have I.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> My guess is no one ever disagreed with him.


His girl certainly didn't. But the cops did, thank goodness.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

In my opinion he still needs to hear this.



Poor Purl said:


> There's the big difference between your DH and that guy. Your DH regards women as independent people; that guy sees women as property to which he can do whatever he wants. He probably didn't understand what DH was saying to him.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> In my opinion he still needs to hear this.


Of course he needs to hear it, over and over and over until it finally reaches his brain.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Of course he needs to hear it, over and over and over until it finally reaches his brain.


And so does she, sadly some women are groomed for abuse from the time they are infants. 
I am sure that you saw this with some of those young ones who were having children out of wedlock, Empress, beaten down by life before they really began it.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> And so does she, sadly some women are groomed for abuse from the time they are infants.
> I am sure that you saw this with some of those young ones who were having children out of wedlock, Empress, beaten down by life before they really began it.


An abused child is certainly better than an aborted "child, according to god's plan.

Happy Spring to those of us in the IT IS NOW SPRING hemisphere. 
Happy fall to those of you in the fall hemisphere. OOOOO! You have to face winter. Hope yours is easier than ours was.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> And so does she, sadly some women are groomed for abuse from the time they are infants.
> I am sure that you saw this with some of those young ones who were having children out of wedlock, Empress, beaten down by life before they really began it.


Yes, I did. But I also saw some who showed amazing strength in spite of their abuse. I was never able to tell which ones would surrender and which would escape.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

NC has a law which says 'Zero Tolerance' re: Domestic Abuse. You are sent to Anger Management Classes. If you don't attend or drop out, it's an automatic jail sentence. (There are members of the Court attending.) :thumbup:


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Let me tell you a little story about prostitution. In the 1990s I lived in the poorest neighborhood in North America. (that's Canada and the US, in case you don't know what North America means) It was called the Downtown East Side, DEAS for short, and was located in Vancouver, BC. I lived 2 blocks from the four-lane street that was the main commute route through the neighborhood. The laneways (what us Americans call alleys) behind and in front of my house were the spots where the johns and prostitutes went to consummate their business. I had the dubious pleasure of catching the bus to work on one of the street corners that was the territory of half a dozen junkie prostitutes. I made it a habit to encourage any of the prostitutes around the bus stop to figure out how to murder their pimps in the most gruesome manner they could without getting caught.*I'm be a pacifist, but I also like tosee the streets kept clean.

The most amazing lesson I learned was that prostitution is not solely a night time activity. There were a lot of men who picked up a prostitute on the way to work or on the way home from work for a quick, relaxing blow job. Men driving company vehicles did this. Taxi drivers did this. My husband, myself and our next door neighbors always called the police every time we saw the johns and prostitutes parked around our homes. The police rarely, and I mean VERY rarely showed up, but when we called companies to let them know what their employees were up to, we got quite a few braindead johns fired on the spot.

We also kept long water hoses in our front and back yards and snuck up on the cars of the johns and drenched them with as much water as we could get into their cars before they rolled up their windows. (For some reason a lot of the idiot johns had their driver side and passenger side windows down...) We also mixed cornstarch in buckets of water and threw those on the johns. A guy who has to go home with wet pants and a lot of water soaked into the upholstery and floor of his car is a guy who is going to get into big trouble with his wife.

Oh, and just to put the cherry on top, there was an elementary school across the street from us.

There have been a few remarks here about whether some women choose to be prostitutes and I consider those who suggest there is any choice involved to be women-haters even though they are women themselves.Women don't choose to become prostitutes, and the men who use them do so with less respect than they show their hands when they masturbate. If any of you think otherwise, you are sadly mistaken.


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## CaroleJS (Jun 2, 2011)

I just by chance spoke with a woman who's husband was in jail for sex trafficking in my town. She was working on getting a divorce so she could move on with her life. She told me that although he had young girls going to truck stops to find "johns", her husband also very strongly tried to get her to prostitute herself for his financial gain. She was asking my advise about getting her husband out of her life. I shared with her to use the Police detective/officer as a resource. We had a long talk about both our situations. It was a really Odd feeling I had after this visit with her. At the end of our chance visit, she told me that I was her "Angel" sent by God. I can't explain the feeling I went away with. But I had never had a feeling like I felt that day after talking with her. We didn't exchange names and have never seen each other since that day.


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## Mitzi (May 8, 2011)

I think you have been an angel to many just by sharing your story of strength. Bless you


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Yes, I did. But I also saw some who showed amazing strength in spite of their abuse. I was never able to tell which ones would surrender and which would escape.


Which was probably a good thing, don't you think?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Which was probably a good thing, don't you think?


That I couldn't tell? No, it would have been better if I had known from the outset - treatment focus would have been different.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

You did an excellent thing and gave someone good advice. I think you were fortunate that a stranger asked for you help. Sometimes people can't talk to *anyone* they know and get up the nerve to talk to a stranger. You must have seemed like the *safe* stranger for that woman. I hope the odd feeling you had was that you knew you'd done something important and you're a good person. I admire your willingness to talk to that woman.


CaroleJS said:


> I just by chance spoke with a woman who's husband was in jail for sex trafficking in my town. She was working on getting a divorce so she could move on with her life. She told me that although he had young girls going to truck stops to find "johns", her husband also very strongly tried to get her to prostitute herself for his financial gain. She was asking my advise about getting her husband out of her life. I shared with her to use the Police detective/officer as a resource. We had a long talk about both our situations. It was a really Odd feeling I had after this visit with her. At the end of our chance visit, she told me that I was her "Angel" sent by God. I can't explain the feeling I went away with. But I had never had a feeling like I felt that day after talking with her. We didn't exchange names and have never seen each other since that day.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Janet Cooke said:


> HAHAHAA, now you left that one out in the first post.
> That may be a capital offense.
> 
> It was the times, I suppose, I used to get hit with the single parent stick all the time when dealing with my son's issues so I had some sympathy. I didn't know anyone who had a child with an autism diagnosis until the late 80s and that was a work situation... and yes, the parents I knew who had institutionalized their children punished themselves terribly, mired in guilt.
> People are not very kind, which is why I have to keep my fingers taped close when Lkholcomb posts her utopian visions of people caring about others and dropping the violence. I just don't see it happening regardless of how wonderful it seems.


One must dream and think it before it can be realized. Do I think it will reach that way in my lifetime? Probably not. Do I think it may be possible at some point in the future, possibly. But I won't give up my dream and beliefs, not drop to a baser level than I think I should act, because other people keep telling me it is not possible, that it has always been this way, that people are genetically imprinted with violence, ect. People used to tell those folks who fought against the idea of slavery with the exact same arguments, but it was because people didn't give up the dream that we have abolished slavery as it was. Is it as perfect as some people thought? No. Has it reached their goals? Maybe. But by keeping expectations at the level of what things are now or have been before only limit what we can accomplish in the future.

I am very aware that many don't agree with me and that's perfectly fine. I am not here to preach and change other's opinions. Their own convictions do that, and everybody is not meant to have the same convictions.

I think some of our differences is that I am raising the next generation and you have raised a generation. I am sure that when you had small children you tried to show them the best that COULD be accomplished, not what was already here and what we should just accept.

So feel free to untape your fingers. ;-)


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

NJG said:


> And the mothers seem to be so mean spirited, although I am sure some of that is for tv. Still do they ever look back at that and think I shouldn't have said that. What an example to set for a child.


My daughter wanted to dance and we ended up going to competition with the dance studio. Nope, Dance Moms is NOT an exaggeration. It is and was appalling. She doesn't dance anymore (her choice), we left the studio over major issues "Dance Mom" like that I had to actually get a lawyer involved over.... no joke. I'm a pacifist but will protect my children with the law if need be.

We now do only cheer for my son and daughter and mostly the parents are better behaved and more sportsman-like (although there are always exception)


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Lkholcomb said:


> One must dream and think it before it can be realized. Do I think it will reach that way in my lifetime? Probably not. Do I think it may be possible at some point in the future, possibly. But I won't give up my dream and beliefs, not drop to a baser level than I think I should act, because other people keep telling me it is not possible, that it has always been this way, that people are genetically imprinted with violence, ect. People used to tell those folks who fought against the idea of slavery with the exact same arguments, but it was because people didn't give up the dream that we have abolished slavery as it was. Is it as perfect as some people thought? No. Has it reached their goals? Maybe. But by keeping expectations at the level of what things are now or have been before only limit what we can accomplish in the future.
> 
> I am very aware that many don't agree with me and that's perfectly fine. I am not here to preach and change other's opinions. Their own convictions do that, and everybody is not meant to have the same convictions.
> 
> ...


What you were referencing was not the raising of one generation of one family, it seemed that you were talking about mankind. 
Nobody is asking you to change anything. 
We are all free to be as pragmatic or idealistic as we choose.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Janet Cooke said:


> What you were referencing was not the raising of one generation of one family, it seemed that you were talking about mankind.
> Nobody is asking you to change anything.
> We are all free to be as pragmatic or idealistic as we choose.


Nobody asked the Frederick Douglas to try to change the practice of slavery initially either, in fact many tried to get him to stop.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> My daughter wanted to dance and we ended up going to competition with the dance studio. Nope, Dance Moms is NOT an exaggeration. It is and was appalling. She doesn't dance anymore (her choice), we left the studio over major issues "Dance Mom" like that I had to actually get a lawyer involved over.... no joke. I'm a pacifist but will protect my children with the law if need be.
> 
> We now do only cheer for my son and daughter and mostly the parents are better behaved and more sportsman-like (although there are always exception)


My daughter did dance and loved every minute of it, and now my granddaughter does too, but it is nothing like Dance moms. Some of the older girls do some competition, but still, nothing like Dance Moms, thank God.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

NJG said:


> My daughter did dance and loved every minute of it, and now my granddaughter does too, but it is nothing like Dance moms. Some of the older girls do some competition, but still, nothing like Dance Moms, thank God.


My daughter was involved in gymnastics for many years and both of the kids went to a karate studio regularly. Nobody was pushing anyone to do more than the regular karate demonstrations which everyone seems to want to see to be sure they get value in the training. 
Then as now, I would not have been susceptible to pressures to have the children compete, it just wasn't our style. 
The kids did ski and raced downhill. My daughter was quite good at that, she missed out, though, because the high school they attended did not have a ski team.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

NJG said:


> My daughter did dance and loved every minute of it, and now my granddaughter does too, but it is nothing like Dance moms. Some of the older girls do some competition, but still, nothing like Dance Moms, thank God.


I should have clarified that it was the competition dance moms who were like the shows (not the regular moms who brought their kids for dance). I didn't do the nastiness and they didn't seem to like it very much, especially once they tried the stalking behavior on me and my kids. I took great exception to that and got lawyers and such involved.

I never pressured my daughter to compete ever. She begged to dance for a year or so before we actually got her into lessons. Then she begged to compete. We didn't have any knowledge of what it was like in the competition world until then.


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## CaroleJS (Jun 2, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> You did an excellent thing and gave someone good advice. I think you were fortunate that a stranger asked for you help. Sometimes people can't talk to *anyone* they know and get up the nerve to talk to a stranger. You must have seemed like the *safe* stranger for that woman. I hope the odd feeling you had was that you knew you'd done something important and you're a good person. I admire your willingness to talk to that woman.


The feeling I went away with that day was not an uncomfortable feeling. And it wasn't an awkward feeling either. It was a feeling I can't really explain. I had my grandson with me. The woman started asking questions about my grandson. He was maybe 2 1/2 yrs old. She asked if she could sit with us. We were at a McDonald's eating lunch. She then started talking about her situation. I could understand her need to talk. You are right, sometimes it is easier to talk to a stranger to get an unbiased opinion. I guess I went away feeling some pride in answering her questions. She also said she felt better after our talk. I think part of the strange feeling I had was with the fact that this woman needed someone to talk to and it happened to be with me in a place completely by chance and that I had worked closely with the local police and DA to get through my own traumatic experience caused by a man I was supposed to be able to trust my life with and to learn he was the LAST person I could trust. That in itself is a Horrible realization to think about. I was really proud that my grandson was a PERFECT Angel while we talked. Life does have it's rewards.


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

I'm just popping in to "share" something I'm having a LOT of trouble stomaching this evening (hope I can come back tomorrow for a bit for discussion), but this demonsates society's demeaning and dehumanizing attitudes and treatment of women to the max. To far too many people in power (mostly male), we are nothing but breeders and could as easily be replaced by warm robots and petri dishes if only the science supported it.

I would encourage you to at least skim the whole thread. I've posted ONE post from the discussion:



> *Terrifying Precedent: Woman to Be Tried for Murder for Giving Birth to Stillborn When She Was 16
> Frightening gambit by pro-lifers to charge women for murder of stillborns due to 'fetal harm' is getting its day in court. *
> Rennie Gibbss daughter, Samiya, was a month premature when she simultaneously entered the world and left it, never taking a breath. To experts who later examined the medical record, the stillborn infants most likely cause of death was also the most obvious: the umbilical cord wrapped around her neck.
> 
> ...


Be sue to read down to Post #55 from a woman who is a nurse.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitry said:


> I'm just popping in to "share" something I'm having a LOT of trouble stomaching this evening (hope I can come back tomorrow for a bit for discussion), but this demonsates society's demeaning and dehumanizing attitudes and treatment of women to the max. To far too many people in power (mostly male), we are nothing but breeders and could as easily be replaced by warm robots and petri dishes if only the science supported it.
> 
> I would encourage you to at least skim the whole thread. I've posted ONE post from the discussion:
> 
> Be sue to read down to Post #55 from a woman who is a nurse.


Just reading the list here made me sick to my stomach. This is why some men feel entitled to beat their women: we're not real human beings to them, just 2nd class receptacles and incubators.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Knitry said:


> I'm just popping in to "share" something I'm having a LOT of trouble stomaching this evening (hope I can come back tomorrow for a bit for discussion), but this demonsates society's demeaning and dehumanizing attitudes and treatment of women to the max. To far too many people in power (mostly male), we are nothing but breeders and could as easily be replaced by warm robots and petri dishes if only the science supported it.
> 
> I would encourage you to at least skim the whole thread. I've posted ONE post from the discussion:
> 
> Be sue to read down to Post #55 from a woman who is a nurse.


Horrid.

I recall my MIL just recently telling me about a case that was taken to court about the father's rights to be in the delivery room. Why? I understand that a parent would want to be there but many surrogate or adoptive parents are not and the birth mother make the choice. It would be an awful situation if there was already domestic violence involved! Women just aren't treated as equal in our society at all.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitry said:


> I'm just popping in to "share" something I'm having a LOT of trouble stomaching this evening
> 
> ..............snip..............
> 
> Be sue to read down to Post #55 from a woman who is a nurse.


I read most of your links and am disgusted with the mind-set of legislators, judges and prosecutors who think these penalties are rational, let alone legal. There's something wrong when a living, breathing person, with ties and responsibilities, is simply shoved aside in favor of an embryo.

I didn't know what Post #55 was; would have liked getting a nurse's take on things.

BTW, isn't this more relevant to War on Women than DV? Do you mind if I copy it to that thread?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

CaroleJS said:


> I just by chance spoke with a woman who's husband was in jail for sex trafficking in my town. She was working on getting a divorce so she could move on with her life. She told me that although he had young girls going to truck stops to find "johns", her husband also very strongly tried to get her to prostitute herself for his financial gain. She was asking my advise about getting her husband out of her life. I shared with her to use the Police detective/officer as a resource. We had a long talk about both our situations. It was a really Odd feeling I had after this visit with her. At the end of our chance visit, she told me that I was her "Angel" sent by God. I can't explain the feeling I went away with. But I had never had a feeling like I felt that day after talking with her. We didn't exchange names and have never seen each other since that day.


Carole, this is a wonderful story, and the follow-up is, too (and your grandson sounds pretty wonderful as well). It's amazing what you can accomplish just by being open and nonjudgmental and attentive to someone who needs to unburden herself. You did a lot for her, and from the way you speak in your next message, got a lot out of it yourself.


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## CaroleJS (Jun 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Carole, this is a wonderful story, and the follow-up is, too (and your grandson sounds pretty wonderful as well). It's amazing what you can accomplish just by being open and nonjudgmental and attentive to someone who needs to unburden herself. You did a lot for her, and from the way you speak in your next message, got a lot out of it yourself.


You are right, I felt that I did get a lot out of that situation. I have been able to look back at many of my "low" times in my life and I have been able to see the good come out of each situation. I can recall life taking a new positive turn each time. I feel I have been blessed to recognize when a "new door" opens for me. When I have stepped through, it turns out to be a new path in my life. I had a VERY low time happen the early part of last November. At the same time I had a "door open" for me. It was a tough time. But, I worked through it one day at a time and all is Good. It is true, good can come out of bad. I am NOT minimizing the seriousness of the bad should not happen, but we do manage to find out way through. The following song is a really good way to think about it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

CaroleJS said:


> You are right, I felt that I did get a lot out of that situation. I have been able to look back at many of my "low" times in my life and I have been able to see the good come out of each situation. I can recall life taking a new positive turn each time. I feel I have been blessed to recognize when a "new door" opens for me. When I have stepped through, it turns out to be a new path in my life. I had a VERY low time happen the early part of last November. At the same time I had a "door open" for me. It was a tough time. But, I worked through it one day at a time and all is Good. It is true, good can come out of bad. I am NOT minimizing the seriousness of the bad should not happen, but we do manage to find out way through. The following song is a really good way to think about it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Oh, who could bear to stay away?


Precisely, especially when I had such nice invitations to not stay away. (Thanks, Purl, and the others.)


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> *There's something wrong when a living, breathing person, with ties and responsibilities, is simply shoved aside in favor of an embryo.*


*

Well said.




I didn't know what Post #55 was; would have liked getting a nurse's take on things.

BTW, isn't this more relevant to War on Women than DV? Do you mind if I copy it to that thread?

Click to expand...

You can post it wherever you like. The very last link in the whole thing was to the discussion thread itself where I originally found all that -- it would be better closer to the top, I think, just in case you agree.

And here's what Nurse Warpy had to say in Post #55:




55. This is (bleeping) insane

The infant was stillborn because it was premature and the cord around its neck had cut of its oxygen supply long enough to kill it. It happens. Usually the attending doctor or midwife will feel it and deal with it in time. Such was not the case here.

I've seen infants born to mothers who were coked up to the rafters, trying to induce labor (it's one of those urban legends) and the babies were a little tough to watch for the first 24 hours, but they were born alive and stayed that way.

This is bogus: it's the worst of the drug war tied to misogyny and downright cruelty. That asshole needs to be deprived of his job ASAP.

Click to expand...

*


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

NJG said:


> Strange how some people repeat what they grew up with because that is what they know, and others do everything within their power to make things better for their family and not repeat what they grew up with.
> 
> My parents never showed affection to my sister or I and never said I love you to us. I was about 12 years old when I saw a friend get a hug and an I love you before leaving for school and I was amazed. I decided right there that someday I would have that too and I did with my family and still do today.
> 
> *I guess I just wonder what makes some want something different and some just continue on the same path.*


In general, self-reflection and being conscious enough of the pattern to reject or adopt it, instead of becoming perp or victim. Abused children will usually growh up to be one or the other OR, I've heard, often enough some of both.

Of course, completely breaking the cycle is another option for some.


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Wouldn't that be some male attitudes?
> It seems to me that some men just go to prostitutes because they want an uncomplicated side arrangement when they are married. Not all prostitutes deal with the dregs of society.


AFAIC, johns = dregs of society, and it doesn't matter what their upbringing, bearing, pedigree, heritage, bank account, whatever. They are using women and there's no upside to that. It's misogynist.



> It seems to me that these men going on this website to "rate" the women they were with say a whole lot more about who or what they are than about the women they are rating.


Oh, it did say quite a bit about them -- I wrote about that very thing, remember? But also remember this was for use of other customers and potential customers so it really WAS all about the women. Think: Amazon product reviews which only goes to show that these reviews may have been "good" for business, but it was also another way to dehumanize and demean the women.



> Unless these men are willing to put their identities out there as the johns I am not sure why anyone would believe what they say about rough treatment.
> What brothel is going to let a man damage the women any more than a retail outlet allows people to tear their dresses apart?


I don't have any idea what self-identification would have to do with it. I would think the opposite, that anonymity would allow more candid revelations. But in any case, perhaps my somewhat euphemistic description led you astray. So let me help you out with a more specific description of how these women could be physically hurt during what I euphemistically called "rough sex" while still not leaving scars: How 'bout the man pulls the woman's hair and jerks her head back, shoving a certain something so far down her throat it chokes her til she gags and begs for air? And don't forget, anal sex can get pretty uncomfortable too.

Hmmm, I wonder how many of them have the freedom and ability (agency) to even consider complaining in such cases or ending the "date"?


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

I wanted to say a few more things about prostitution and, while I'm at it, let me throw in a bit about pornography too.

From some of the other responses here, I really don't get this _Pretty Woman-ization_ of what is surely the filthiest and most demeaning "job" in the universe. I don't understand this notion -- myth, really -- that some women prostitutes seem to be doing okay or really fine, and yeah there are a few bad brothels maybe but good ones too, but then you can always go solo and be your own boss - wheee!!! -- and pull in all those higher class woman-hating scuzzballs who will pay you the big bucks.

There is NOTHING socially redeeming or in any way acceptable about either prostitution or pornography. Nothing. They both hurt women in innumerable ways, perhaps the most important one being the furtherance of the LIE that women's primary (and to some, highest) purpose is for men's sexual pleasure and use which shows just how inferior women really are. We don't need ANYTHING in this society that further demeans and degrades women -- not any one woman, not any group of women, not the entire universe of women -- or that perpetuates these myths and lies about women. I posted that ghastly list of news items about some of the barbaric anti-woman things going on right now in our actual culture as a sort of WAKE-UP call on the subject.

Put another way: the chit's gettin' serious (in case you haven't noticed).

For those of you who think anything positive or even tolerable about prostitution (or pornography), here are a few questions I'd like you to think about carefully, so carefully that you can FEEL the answers (and I don't want your answers, I just want you to think):

How would you feel taking your clothes off for a strange man, let along for a string of strange men day after day? How would you feel about them being physically repulsive (how many Richard Gere's are there in the world??), and you're not only taking your clothes off, they're touching you. And not just touching you but being as intimate with you as anyone has ever been... without any of the warm fuzzies. And then you get asked, expected even, to do things you may not like all that much even if you were with a man you actually care about? How will you feel when you're doing all this and instead of appreciation, however mild, you're get called horrible names and/or treated like a piece of furniture?? And when it's all done, how would you feel afterwards, with him collapsed on top of you, or maybe beside you -- fat, ugly, sweaty and naked? How much money would it take to make all that feel "okay"? And then you have to do it all over again tomorrow, if not in half an hour?

And if YOU'd have trouble with any of this, what makes you think so poorly of any of your sisters that you think they could do it without great suffering (whether they admitted that to themselves or not? and many don't/can't)?

Women who SAY they are happy being prostitutes may actually believe it. Typically they've had to numb themselves to their reality - present and past -- and a good many (probably most) use drugs to help with that which unfortunately makes prostitution all the more necessary since it's such an expensive habit. If they grew up in abusive homes, if the one type of personal power they were ever able to develop and use with any success was sexual, if their own self-esteem grew largely from how they looked, how sexy they were and how men oogled them, yeah -- they can fall right in to thinking they LIKE sex. What they might in reality like is the power they have over men (the very types of men who no doubt hurt them in the past) by being strippers or prostitutes or other sex workers.

Anyway, unless you can honestly say you'd really enjoy the scenarios I described above, please don't imagine there are others who do. Put another way: NO ONE likes sex that much. Sex isn't meant to be anonymous and exploitative, even though it all too often is.

By the way, has everyone heard of Andrea Dworkin? Familiar with her works? Her _Letters from a War Zone_ is about pornography and IMO every woman, but at least every feminist, should read it. It's not easy reading by any means (a few pages a day???), but it is incredible and important. Porn-loving liberal men (and too many liberal women) want to demean Dworkin, misquote and mischaracterize and demonize her, because they don't want to give up their beloved porn. Disgusting. I hate seeing otherwise bright and cogent men (and some women) defend porn and prostitutes as if they were something to which we are all entitled, something to be proud of, something to aspire to as a society, something to defend and protect. Protected by the First Amendment? Dworkin has an answer for that, and I wholeheartedly agree.

If interested, you can download all her works here: http://radfem.org/dworkin/ You can either download all of them as one file, or scroll down and download the one(s) you want. I can't recommend many of her other works only because I haven't read them, but the ones with civil right attorney Catherine MacKinnon are terrific. The two of them got legislation passed that DID NOT OUTLAW porn but enabled women to sue in civil court if they could show pornography harmed them. Brilliant. I don't remember exactly what happened -- it was clearly overturned -- but that's along the lines of what I want to see: a societal awakening to the many harms of all these anti-women practices, institutions and industries.


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> There have been a few remarks here about whether some women choose to be prostitutes and I consider those who suggest there is any choice involved to be women-haters even though they are women themselves.Women don't choose to become prostitutes, and the men who use them do so with less respect than they show their hands when they masturbate. If any of you think otherwise, you are sadly mistaken.


I'll break my silence to say: WELL SAID.


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

CaroleJS said:


> I just by chance spoke with a woman who's husband was in jail for sex trafficking in my town. She was working on getting a divorce so she could move on with her life. She told me that although he had young girls going to truck stops to find "johns", her husband also very strongly tried to get her to prostitute herself for his financial gain. She was asking my advise about getting her husband out of her life. I shared with her to use the Police detective/officer as a resource. We had a long talk about both our situations. It was a really Odd feeling I had after this visit with her. At the end of our chance visit, she told me that I was her "Angel" sent by God. I can't explain the feeling I went away with. But I had never had a feeling like I felt that day after talking with her. We didn't exchange names and have never seen each other since that day.


I've had perfect strangers say life-changing things to me, and I always absolutely felt that I could sense the fine hand of Divine Providence in those "chance" meetings. I've also had the pleasure once or twice of feeling like the words tumbling out of my mouth (almost without my knowledge or doing) were important for the other person to hear as well. These are magical moments.

Congratulations and thank you for being a channel of blessings to that woman.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Knitry said:


> I'll break my silence to say: WELL SAID.


Yup, there ya go. You both are absolutely right. I hate women. 
Does that make you feel better?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Actually some women do chose to go into porn. Just recently there was on all the media a college student, who decided to do porn rather than incur high school loans. She says she is fine with her decision and plans to quit as soon as she gets her degree.

My question is - who will hire her since she has gone so viral with her fund-raising efforts?


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## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

Dear NJG 
Gosh that rung a chord with me too; I was a young teenager when I saw the way one of my class-mates was speaking with her dad, and realised it wasn't an act put on for the visitors; some parents really do speak to their kids with respect and affection and it's for real. My friend grew up to run a pre-school show on T.V


NJG said:


> Strange how some people repeat what they grew up with because that is what they know, and others do everything within their power to make things better for their family and not repeat what they grew up with.
> 
> My parents never showed affection to my sister or I and never said I love you to us. I was about 12 years old when I saw a friend get a hug and an I love you before leaving for school and I was amazed. I decided right there that someday I would have that too and I did with my family and still do today.
> 
> I guess I just wonder what makes some want something different and some just continue on the same path.


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## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

What bothers me too is that the female's problem is being one day overdue, or thinking that she might become overdue. At this stage, she could have a 5-minutes "menstrual extraction" with a flexible 5mm diameter notch-tipped plastic tube with one atmosphere negative pressure (suction) and clean the uterus out. If there's a pregnancy, it would be at a very early stage in development, and avoid the horrors for the baby of later abortion. However, there's money to be made making things later, and it sure isn't working for the woman or the babies. The menstrual extraction is done under intravenous valium which makes the woman sleep through the 5-minutes procedure, and it's done up to a month overdue period.


Poor Purl said:


> I read most of your links and am disgusted with the mind-set of legislators, judges and prosecutors who think these penalties are rational, let alone legal. There's something wrong when a living, breathing person, with ties and responsibilities, is simply shoved aside in favor of an embryo.
> 
> I didn't know what Post #55 was; would have liked getting a nurse's take on things.
> 
> BTW, isn't this more relevant to War on Women than DV? Do you mind if I copy it to that thread?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> Actually some women do chose to go into porn. Just recently there was on all the media a college student, who decided to do porn rather than incur high school loans. She says she is fine with her decision and plans to quit as soon as she gets her degree.
> 
> My question is - who will hire her since she has gone so viral with her fund-raising efforts?


Someone who understands that sex is just sex. 
Who has this kind of reaction because men choose the bash the hell out of their bodies to get an annual scholarship for playing football or basketball. 
It is a natural human activity, kinda like farting.


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## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

Well said; after all, what man or woman would honestly want their child to grow up to be a prostitute, given via and attractive alternatives; and that's the crux in some societies.


Knitry said:


> I wanted to say a few more things about prostitution and, while I'm at it, let me throw in a bit about pornography too.
> 
> From some of the other responses here, I really don't get this _Pretty Woman-ization_ of what is surely the filthiest and most demeaning "job" in the universe. I don't understand this notion -- myth, really -- that some women prostitutes seem to be doing okay or really fine, and yeah there are a few bad brothels maybe but good ones too, but then you can always go solo and be your own boss - wheee!!! -- and pull in all those higher class woman-hating scuzzballs who will pay you the big bucks.
> 
> ...


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Janet Cooke said:


> Yup, there ya go. You both are absolutely right. I hate women.
> Does that make you feel better?


What about all the men prostitutes? There are lots of them. And what about the men in porn? Or the porn where the woman keeps her clothes on and the men are degraded? (Yes, I know this, we had to learn about "kinks" of sex in nursing school..... seriously.... and then you learn more than you ever wanted to know working in the health care field).

The discussion of prostitution seems to be one sided, that it is always women who are forced or tricked into it, but it leaves out the men who are forced or tricked into it as well. And some are by loved ones, so it is a domestic violence situation.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

omnivore2 said:


> What bothers me too is that the female's problem is being one day overdue, or thinking that she might become overdue. At this stage, she could have a 5-minutes "menstrual extraction" with a flexible 5mm diameter notch-tipped plastic tube with one atmosphere negative pressure (suction) and clean the uterus out. If there's a pregnancy, it would be at a very early stage in development, and avoid the horrors for the baby of later abortion. However, there's money to be made making things later, and it sure isn't working for the woman or the babies.


Or she could just go to the drugstore and buy a med...or the man she slept with could have had a vasectomy.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> Or she could just go to the drugstore and buy a med...or the man she slept with could have had a vasectomy.


if she works at Hobby Lobby her insurance would not cover meds from a drugstore.

Sorry wrong thread!


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> if she works at Hobby Lobby her insurance would not cover meds from a drugstore.
> 
> Sorry wrong thread!


Good point, except that those meds are sold OTC now.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Lkholcomb said:


> What about all the men prostitutes? There are lots of them. And what about the men in porn? Or the porn where the woman keeps her clothes on and the men are degraded? (Yes, I know this, we had to learn about "kinks" of sex in nursing school..... seriously.... and then you learn more than you ever wanted to know working in the health care field).
> 
> The discussion of prostitution seems to be one sided, that it is always women who are forced or tricked into it, but it leaves out the men who are forced or tricked into it as well. And some are by loved ones, so it is a domestic violence situation.


My point was not really about women being tricked into it. 
Other than those who are deficient either due to mental illness, substance abuse, or retardation are not likely to be tricked (no pun intended) into it. 
Children may be kidnapped or sold into it, runaways may be tricked into it, they may do it because they were abused when younger and believe that trading sex for life or love is appropriate. I am not addressing those situations. 
My contention is that there are some women who understand what they are doing and choose to sell the sex act. 
Plenty of women, even some who comment on this forum, have performed sex acts for all kinds of reasons. I know I have. 
So giving it away is OK, marrying some man who can support someone as they would like to be supported is OK, but it is sick for people to be paid and anyone who would suggest that it isn't is misogynist? 
There is nothing that is sacred about any sex act. 
One point of agreement, Lkholcomb, would have to be that it is odd that nobody wants to address that men are in the life as well. I guess they aren't victims.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

omnivore2 said:


> What bothers me too is that the female's problem is being one day overdue, or thinking that she might become overdue. At this stage, she could have a 5-minutes "menstrual extraction" with a flexible 5mm diameter notch-tipped plastic tube with one atmosphere negative pressure (suction) and clean the uterus out. If there's a pregnancy, it would be at a very early stage in development, and avoid the horrors for the baby of later abortion. However, there's money to be made making things later, and it sure isn't working for the woman or the babies. The menstrual extraction is done under intravenous valium which makes the woman sleep through the 5-minutes procedure, and it's done up to a month overdue period.


It's so obvious that you're not in the US. I haven't heard about menstrual extraction since the 80s; I bet it's against the law in some states because it might dislodge a fertilized egg from the uterus wall. Can't have that. (Sarcasm.)


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Both my Purl and Cooke have been magnificent tonight. Applause!


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Janet Cooke said:


> My point was not really about women being tricked into it.
> Other than those who are deficient either due to mental illness, substance abuse, or retardation are not likely to be tricked (no pun intended) into it.
> Children may be kidnapped or sold into it, runaways may be tricked into it, they may do it because they were abused when younger and believe that trading sex for life or love is appropriate. I am not addressing those situations.
> My contention is that there are some women who understand what they are doing and choose to sell the sex act.
> ...


I didn't explain before well, I guess. I actually agree with you. Sex is a biological act. I have seen women who are prostitutes and they chose that life and in addition they choose their johns.

I think that if a woman chooses to be a prostitute then that is her choice. If she is forced into it I would be the first to help her if she asks.

I think you and I agree that a person who choses to be a prostitute is not always someone who is forced into it.

(ps I didn't even catch the irony when I used the word "tricked" before, lol)


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Lkholcomb said:


> I didn't explain before well, I guess. I actually agree with you. Sex is a biological act. I have seen women who are prostitutes and they chose that life and in addition they choose their johns.
> 
> I think that if a woman chooses to be a prostitute then that is her choice. If she is forced into it I would be the first to help her if she asks.
> 
> ...


I thought that we were pretty much on the same page, I just wasn't sure. 
I have no doubt that most people who are "in the life" did not choose it in many senses. That just doesn't mean that everyone didn't.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> Both my Purl and Cooke have been magnificent tonight. Applause!


Not sure what you are referring to, Purl is always astounding.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Not sure what you are referring to, Purl is always astounding.


That's what my high school principal used to say. No, wait, he said "outstanding." What he really said was "Every time I pass that classroom, you're outstanding in the hall."


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> That's what my high school principal used to say. No, wait, he said "outstanding." What he really said was "Every time I pass that classroom, you're outstanding in the hall."


 :lol:


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> That's what my high school principal used to say. No, wait, he said "outstanding." What he really said was "Every time I pass that classroom, you're outstanding in the hall."


An oldie and a goodie! Nice to begin the day with a chuckle, thanks.


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## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It's so obvious that you're not in the US. I haven't heard about menstrual extraction since the 80s; I bet it's against the law in some states because it might dislodge a fertilized egg from the uterus wall. Can't have that. (Sarcasm.)


 :thumbup:


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> What about all the men prostitutes? There are lots of them. And what about the men in porn? Or the porn where the woman keeps her clothes on and the men are degraded? (Yes, I know this, we had to learn about "kinks" of sex in nursing school..... seriously.... and then you learn more than you ever wanted to know working in the health care field).
> 
> The discussion of prostitution seems to be one sided, that it is always women who are forced or tricked into it, but it leaves out the men who are forced or tricked into it as well. And some are by loved ones, so it is a domestic violence situation.


It is always about women because the vast, vast majority of those in the trade (prostitution) ARE women. Men aren't excluded and a good deal of what's been said about prostitution in general applies to them as well. It's just that they're a much smaller proportion -- kinda like whey we don't much talk about men getting raped when we discuss rape. It's not that it doesn't happen -- especially in prisons -- it's just nowhere near the numbers as for women.

Then, too, at the particular place I lurk for virtually all my political news, when ANYthing about women's rights and women's issues comes up, there are what seems like hundreds of men who absolutely must pipe up and say, "But what about the MEN?" If the poor men aren't equally acknowledged straightaway, it's as if the conversation can't take place. They don't seem to realize that the whole damn world is about (of, by and for) men, and SOMETIMES we get to talk just about what impacts women because we're freakin' dying in epidemic numbers out here because it's so MUCH all about the men so much of the time!! So frankly, I have little sympathy for any of the "but what about the MEN????" arguments, especially in any discussions about domestic violence and other violence against women.

More charitably, other people can handle those concerns without my "help."

And by the way, just in case anyone starts thinking I hate men, I don't. BUT, I do hate sexism and sexists. I give every single man I ever encounter the benefit of the doubt. And they're good right up to the point (if it ever comes) where they either demonstrate their inherent sexism/misogyny (in which case I'm done with them), OR their support of women and feminism, OR their capacity to be educated (in which case they get to live).

Then too, male sexuality isn't commodified nearly to the extent women and our bodies and sexuality are. I'm thinking the worst threat for male tends to be sex trafficking.

There is gay porn (which always comes up when women on that other site are discussing pornography) and frankly I know nothing about it -- and don't particularly care to. But I can't imagine pornography happens in any complete absence of exploitation and of course I'm certainly against that.


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> Actually some women do chose to go into porn. Just recently there was on all the media a college student, who decided to do porn rather than incur high school loans. She says she is fine with her decision and plans to quit as soon as she gets her degree.
> 
> My question is - who will hire her since she has gone so viral with her fund-raising efforts?


Her career goals are to become a civil rights attorney working for the rights of sex workers, and in particular (to paraphrase her), helping normalize that stuff. Her porn name is Belle Knox and her real name has been outed, but I'm not going to go digging for it.

She says her parents are 100% supportive -- what does that tell you? Another report said they were devastated when they found out.

She thinks rough sex is "empowering" and



> That "empowerment" line is the same one she used in her new, graphic blog post written largely about her first porn video, which included submission, name calling, and slapping.
> http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2014/03/19/duke-porn-star-belle-knox-rough-sex-empowering-critics-off-base/


She's apparently a cutter -- what does that tell you?



> The modeling photos, taken shortly before she began her porn career, clearly show ugly cutting marks on the porn stars thighs.
> 
> ..'Oh yeah, she is a major league cutter,' said one blogger in a recent post. 'From the thighs down to the toes. Apparently her ex-boyfriend that cheated on her told her she was fat so she carved the word into her thigh.
> 
> ...


Well, one could argue she's been clean from self-harm except for some of the behaviors she's engaged in these days.

And some would argue it's just sex. Just a choice. No big deal. Some might even agree with Belle Knox that it's "empowering."


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

I just discovered that the US has a National Domestic Violence Hotline http://www.thehotline.org/ . One important thing it offers is someone who will chat with you online if you need advice or just someone to vent to.
If your computer use is monitored, there's a phone number to call: 1-800-799-SAFE (7233).

One useful thing I found there is the following rundown of signs that your partner - or that of your child or a friend - may turn out to be an abuser:

*Warning Signs and Red Flags*

Its not always easy to tell at the beginning of a relationship if it will become abusive.

In fact, many abusive partners may seem absolutely perfect in the early stages of a relationship. Possessive and controlling behaviors dont always appear overnight, but rather emerge and intensify as the relationship grows.

Domestic violence doesnt look the same in every relationship because every relationship is different. But one thing most abusive relationships have in common is that the abusive partner does many different kinds of things to have more power and control over their partners.

If youre beginning to feel as if your partner or a loved ones partner is becoming abusive, there are a few behaviors that you can look out for. Watch out for these red flags and if youre experiencing one or more of them in your relationship, call the hotline to talk about whats going on.

*Telling you that you can never do anything right
*Showing jealousy of your friends and time spent away 
*Keeping you or discouraging you from seeing friends or family members
*Embarrassing or shaming you with put-downs
*Controlling every penny spent in the household
*Taking your money or refusing to give you money for expenses
*Looking at you or acting in ways that scare you
*Controlling who you see, where you go, or what you do
*Preventing you from making your own decisions
*Telling you that you are a bad parent or threatening to harm or take away your children
*Preventing you from working or attending school
*Destroying your property or threatening to hurt or kill your pets
*Intimidating you with guns, knives or other weapons
*Pressuring you to have sex when you dont want to or do things sexually youre not comfortable with
*Pressuring you to use drugs or alcohol


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Great list, and may I add... PLEASE, do not get pregnant until you are sure you can trust your partner.



Poor Purl said:


> I just discovered that the US has a National Domestic Violence Hotline http://www.thehotline.org/ . One important thing it offers is someone who will chat with you online if you need advice or just someone to vent to.
> If your computer use is monitored, there's a phone number to call: 1-800-799-SAFE (7233).
> 
> One useful thing I found there is the following rundown of signs that your partner - or that of your child or a friend - may turn out to be an abuser:
> ...


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I just discovered that the US has a National Domestic Violence Hotline http://www.thehotline.org/ . One important thing it offers is someone who will chat with you online if you need advice or just someone to vent to.
> If your computer use is monitored, there's a phone number to call: 1-800-799-SAFE (7233).


Great resource, and a great list.

I have been rifling through my various notes and links and have some other things I want to post, but I ran across this, about why women stay.

*Leslie Morgan Steiner: Why domestic violence victims don't leave *(TEDtalks) 





And here's a comment posted:


> 5. I've known two women who have been abused by their domestic partners...
> 
> One I've known before and after and one after.
> 
> The thing that always amazed me was that either of those women ever were victims at all. Both were strong, assertive women with self confidence and supportive familes. (Perhaps that is what allowed them to survive and get free from their abusers.) But those two women made me understand that anyone can become a victim of abuse.


I haven't watched this video, but I remember -- vividly -- a talk I attended many years ago given by a violence against woman activist who herself had been an abused spouse. She talked about why she had stayed... and stayed. I remember some of the reasons she gave, (mostly all of the typical reasons), but I also remember her saying, "And when he wasn't abusing me, he was the man I'd married, the man I loved."


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Yup, there ya go. You both are absolutely right. I hate women.
> Does that make you feel better?


Janet, I'm remiss in not responding to this before now.

Of course you don't hate women, and I apologize for leaving that impression that that's what I meant.

However, ALL OF US who were raised in this misogyinst culture are capable of harboring anti-women sentiment and making anti-women statements. I am no exception.

Once upon a time (1970s) I was the type of person who often said, "I'm not a feminist, but ... " But I believe in equal pay, or but this or but that. And then one day I got my hands on a single remarkable book - _The New Woman's Survival Sourcebook_, very much like _The Whole Earth Catalogs_ of that era, though this was about women and feminism. O.M.G. !!!! Overnight I got an incredible education in women's issues. And so many of the listed resources (it was, after all, a catalog) offered more information for free or a nominal amount -- so I sent for a LOT of it. Everything from labor (9 to 5 organization) to COYOTE (hah! also labor, basically), consciousness raising, wicca and goddesses, and so very much more.

And then I went to the library, and read 3 or more books a week. I didn't read them, I devoured them!

Well, basically, what I'm saying is that you can't grow up in this culture and become a feminist without some of that consciousness raising. We have to be introduced to a different paradigm from the one we know too well, the one that dishonors and demeans and degrades women as a matter of course, as just who we are as a people, as the water we fishies all swim in.

For SOME of these things, it takes a while for the pro-woman views to sink in and defeat the misogynist ones. And frankly, for many people that never happens. There are plenty of women out there who are convinced that their so-called pro-Life beliefs do not harm women. If they're religious enough, they may never come out of it (esp. since our patriarchal religions have been and still are so adamantly misogynist).

well, I'm rambling.

So no, you don't hate women, YOU are not a misogynist; I don't hate women and am not a misogynist. I think we just have to try to remain open -- as open as possible -- to sorting through to find the most pro-women positions on different matters.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Knitry said:


> Janet, I'm remiss in not responding to this before now.
> 
> Of course you don't hate women, and I apologize for leaving that impression that that's what I meant.
> 
> ...


And one of those things is allowing women to do what they want to despite that fact that our value system may not appreciate it. 
I think that marriage is a vast con. I believe that women who settle for that trade off are diminishing their power. 
I also understand that I am in the minority and most women really like that trade off. Whatever works.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitry said:


> I haven't watched this video, but I remember -- vividly -- a talk I attended many years ago given by a violence against woman activist who herself had been an abused spouse. She talked about why she had stayed... and stayed. I remember some of the reasons she gave, (mostly all of the typical reasons), but I also remember her saying, "And when he wasn't abusing me, he was the man I'd married, the man I loved."


What a powerful video, though I suspect many women here will find it all too familiar. Here is a bright, beautiful young woman who saw the abuse coming, little by little, and did not realize for a long time that it wasn't going away; it could only get worse.

She's not unusual, either. She was smart enough to see that if she stayed with her abuser, he would kill her. Luckily, as with many of you, she met a good man, and is now married to him, with children.


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## Knitry (Dec 18, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> And one of those things is allowing women to do what they want to despite that fact that our value system may not appreciate it.
> I think that marriage is a vast con. I believe that women who settle for that trade off are diminishing their power.
> I also understand that I am in the minority and most women really like that trade off. Whatever works.


?????

Who's discussing marriage? My interest is in how women are treated and thought of, with or without, in or out of marriage.

Edited to add: I agree with "allowing" (????) women to do what they want, HOWEVER, when WHAT women choose to do harms themselves and other/all women, then I think we should try to change the zeitgeist so that women learn to want better for themselves and their sisters. (Note: Still no discussion of marriage or "values" -- at least not "values: of the sort I think you're referring to.)


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

I guess I will do the ignoring.


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