# Yarn ethics: Any suggestions ?



## JohnnyB (Jul 16, 2013)

I have a limited yarn budget and usually buy from the box stores unless I get yarn $ for Christmas which I would spend at my LYS. One store I frequent has, IMHO, the softest acrylic worsted in a wide palate of colors. However, I don't agree with the politics nor the HR restrictions they espouse. What to do? Boycott the place and buy yarn I don't like as much elsewhere, or buy what I want and then feel guilty ? Seems like a no win situation to me. Anyone else out there in the same boat ? What would you do ? TIA. :shock:


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## ParkerEliz (Mar 21, 2011)

Why feel guilty? No one is forcing the employees to work there. If they choose to work at such a crummy place, that is theirs to own.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

If it where me (and it is just me), if I felt That Strongly about the LYS "ethics and policies", I would search for another source.
I would never compromise my inner being for yarn.

Certainly, you can find another distributor who carries the yarns as this LYS. No?


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## jmcret05 (Oct 24, 2011)

Personally, I don't shop at places that don't treat their employees fairly, no matter what they are selling.

KnitPicks and several other places online have great sales from time to time. Elann.com has special prices on some really nice yarns. 
http://www.elann.com/commerce.web/product_list.aspx?catID=30&type=yarn

On the other hand, if you want the yarn from that store, walk in and buy it, and don't feel guilty. It's not your fault they are insensitive.


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## Linda6885 (Feb 13, 2011)

The case for Hobby Lobby (if that is who you were talking about) have won their case. BOO, I don't agree with it either. But I really do not think bocotting the store at this late date will do any good. But this is your call. Myself, I am not fond of HL and I can count on one hand the number of times I have shopped there, and i don't use acrylic yarns much either. But you have have to go with what your heart tells you.


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## Janicesei (Jan 8, 2014)

If you boycott people may loose their jobs. If you buy there you get the yarn you want and people keep their jobs.


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## julie windham (Feb 21, 2011)

Not sure I'm understanding. Is it the policies of the store itself you object to or is it the conditions of the country from which the yarns are imported?


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## eneurian (May 4, 2011)

it does no good to boycott the store unless and until you make corporate and local management aware of what and why you are doing so.
also, it is rare that one store will have their own brand of yarn that cannot be purchased elsewhere.


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## Jean Large (Nov 29, 2013)

Follow your own conscience. The highest court in our land has spoken on this issue. Until laws are changed there is nothing we can do. If you boycott you are possibly depriving some one of employment they need to buy food and pay the rent.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

I personally have boycotted one place many years ago.
The owner would hit the workers (fiercely at times), and enough witnesses came forward and the place closed up shop. 
With the owner serving time behind bars.
So ..... the workers were better off without the job.
3 of them had found jobs immediately and are happier than they were.

I really do dislike folks saying one person holding back buying from a place is going to cost the employees their jobs. Bogus.

And To Speculate That The OP Is Talking About HL Is Another Assumption Not Well Grounded.

And I Do Not Have To Tell Management Or Corporate WHY I Choose To Stop Shopping In ANY Place.


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## Gerripho (Dec 7, 2013)

Ethics? Is it ethical to force someone to go against their deeply held beliefs before allowing them to run a business? Of the 20 FDA approved birth control pills, the owners had no objections to 16 of them. They believe the other 4 to cause abortions after conception and do not want to pay for those 4. They do not discriminate against anyone who is pro abortion in their hiring practices, nor would they terminate anyone's employment over a differing opinion or belief. In all ways they are very tolerant of people who believe in abortion. It's a shame they can't receive the same level of tolerance from others. Instead, they are mocked, called unethical, boycotted, and expected to not only permit their employees to abort babies, which they do, but to pay for it as well. So much for freedom and liberty. More to the point -- so much for being tolerant. 

If you like the yarn, then don't bite off your nose to spite your face.


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## Colorgal (Feb 20, 2012)

Gerripho - Well stated. Everybody has an opinion and the right to shop where ever they wish.


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## dijewe (Mar 1, 2011)

Janicesei said:


> If you boycott people may loose their jobs. If you buy there you get the yarn you want and people keep their jobs.


Thank You, this is the most sane response to all of the Hobby Lobby discussions. I have always just rolled my eyes at the self serving comments about how HL treat their staff.


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## DonnieK (Nov 23, 2011)

I personally have been boycotting Hobby Lobby for years though I love the "I Love this yarn" "I love this Cotton" "I love this wool", but, I can find other yarns at garage sales, thrift shops, online, from sellers here on KP without having to sacrifice my beliefs. I have made Hobby Lobby "big guys" that I am boycotting and will continue to do so until they stop hiding behind their "religious beliefs" to further their own good. One person not buy from them may not matter, but one person telling 1,000's of other people can make a difference. If everyone would stop shopping at their stores for just one day, they might get the picture.
I would stand up for my beliefs and my inner feelings. You won't go wrong in doing so.


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## dijewe (Mar 1, 2011)

JohnnyB said:


> I have a limited yarn budget and usually buy from the box stores unless I get yarn $ for Christmas which I would spend at my LYS. One store I frequent has, IMHO, the softest acrylic worsted in a wide palate of colors. However, I don't agree with the politics nor the HR restrictions they espouse. What to do? Boycott the place and buy yarn I don't like as much elsewhere, or buy what I want and then feel guilty ? Seems like a no win situation to me. Anyone else out there in the same boat ? What would you do ? TIA. :shock:


You go and get your yarn from Hobbly Lobby if that is what you want. I just recently completed the following blanket for my grandson. All "I Love this yarn' and for under $50. I have made all 3 of my grandchildren blankets with this. My granddaughter's blanket is 4 or 5 years old already and gets washed weekly because she loves it. Still looks perfect.


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## madkiwi (Jul 7, 2013)

my concern about yarn is nothing to do with employers or employees.

I have purely financial reasons for shopping where I do, and as far as I can see, any employee who doesnt like /agree with mangement policies has to find his / her own solution.

I dont necessessarlly approve or disapprove of policies or beliefs held by others, but I consider such things to be none of my business. I have quite enough troubles of my own without becoming involved with others.

this topic seems to be succeeding in raising blood pressure, and creating dissension, to the detriment of tolerance of other's opinions and beliefs.

I'm a little tired of reading stuff about that chain of stores, and seldom bother to click on that topic, or read right thru.

Done is done, and cant be changed. Let it drop

Madkiwi


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## seamer45 (Jan 18, 2011)

No comment on the "store", we all know which one it is. But I do have to say that you have to make up your mind whether feeling guilty is worth it.


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## mopgenorth (Nov 20, 2011)

JohnnyB said:


> I have a limited yarn budget and usually buy from the box stores unless I get yarn $ for Christmas which I would spend at my LYS. One store I frequent has, IMHO, the softest acrylic worsted in a wide palate of colors. However, I don't agree with the politics nor the HR restrictions they espouse. What to do? Boycott the place and buy yarn I don't like as much elsewhere, or buy what I want and then feel guilty ? Seems like a no win situation to me. Anyone else out there in the same boat ? What would you do ? TIA. :shock:


I found myself in the same boat...but I can't bring myself to walk through their doors, let alone spend any of my money there.

Maybe an alternative would be to see if you can find the yarn you love second hand; i.e. ebay, etsy, etc. - at least the money you spend would not be going directly to the corporate monster.


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## brdlvr27 (Nov 12, 2011)

dijewe - love your fish blanket - I have made that pattern in a quilt but never in knitting. Where did you find this pattern - it is just precious.


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## dijewe (Mar 1, 2011)

brdlvr27 said:


> dijewe - love your fish blanket - I have made that pattern in a quilt but never in knitting. Where did you find this pattern - it is just precious.


Thank you. I saw a picture in a magazine of a quilt pattern and through a bit of trial error figured out how to knit it. I actually used MS excel to figure it out before knitting .


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## brdlvr27 (Nov 12, 2011)

Well you did a wonderful job - I'm not talented enough to figure out how to do that. I must follow a written pattern, but you did great.


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## tonyastewart (Sep 1, 2014)

Just my opinion for what it's worth I love hl yarn but I don't believe even as a christian it's my place to tell others how to live, you can lead them down a path but you can't make them hitch their star at the end of it. In the end those that are truly bothered by the hl policies (employees) will find other jobs, not that in this market it is easy, this is what makes america america, If they can live with their decisions then let the good lord sort it out if I am out of line I apologize


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

brdlvr27 said:


> dijewe - love your fish blanket - I have made that pattern in a quilt but never in knitting. Where did you find this pattern - it is just precious.


No need to figure it out; it's done: http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/a-recipe-for-fish

http://tilla2-irisknits.blogspot.ca/2006/02/tessellating-fish-knitting-pattern.html

http://www.crochetville.com/community/topic/44604-tesselating-fish-blanket/


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Gerripho said:


> ... If you like the yarn, then don't bite off your nose to spite your face.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:

Just because one specific store's owner's beliefs have been made very loudly public does not mean that other stores you buy from do not have personal beliefs that are contrary to your own. Restricting oneself to _only_ those merchants who share one's own beliefs is just not tenable in this supposedly free country. It's what I expect to see - and did see when visiting my husband's extended family for three months at a time twice a year until February 28, 2011 - in Syria. People will travel across the city to buy an item from someone of their distant relatives, same 'tribe', same religious group, same political group, etc. instead of buying the identical item for the identical price from the next door neighbour's shop! This is the mentality of the Middle Ages - at best. It is _not_ a mentality conducive to living together in peace with our neighbours.


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## brdlvr27 (Nov 12, 2011)

Thank you so much Jessica-Jean - you are so helpful and I really appreciate it.


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## cydneyjo (Aug 5, 2011)

Fortunately, I don't like that particular yarn, so my ethics are neither compromised or tempted.


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## Rosette (Oct 7, 2011)

If the yarns were made by child labour in sweat shops, I would not buy that yarn. If the shop exploited their employees, zero hours contracts, no sick pay, etc., I would not shop there. There is a Hobby Lobby in my town and I occasionally shop there. They usually run a 3 for the price of 2 offer, which I use if I am buying expensive yarn.


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## Shylinn (Mar 19, 2014)

My problem with HL is not their religious beliefs...It is the fact that they do not allow their employees to exercise their right, within the law, to follow their own religious beliefs without paying an amount that they cannot afford on the salary they receive. Find another job is just not possible in many of our towns. Abortion is legal here. If HL can choose which laws they will or will not support, why have any laws at all. HL can have their beliefs, just let me exercise mine without penalizing me for them.


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## mac.worrall (Jun 24, 2011)

DonnieK said:


> I personally have been boycotting Hobby Lobby for years though I love the "I Love this yarn" "I love this Cotton" "I love this wool", but, I can find other yarns at garage sales, thrift shops, online, from sellers here on KP without having to sacrifice my beliefs. I have made Hobby Lobby "big guys" that I am boycotting and will continue to do so until they stop hiding behind their "religious beliefs" to further their own good. One person not buy from them may not matter, but one person telling 1,000's of other people can make a difference. If everyone would stop shopping at their stores for just one day, they might get the picture.
> I would stand up for my beliefs and my inner feelings. You won't go wrong in doing so.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## kammyv4 (Aug 6, 2012)

I do not understand why this is such a big issue. There are many institutions and small offices that do not offer insurance at all. I personally, do not receive any benefits, not even vacation time (I can take off I just don't get paid). I choose to work there. This company has offered me a wonderful place to work with wonderful people and I was working at a place that I got full benefits but came with tons of stress. 

The golden word here is I choose this. When people start working at HL they are well aware of what their benefits may be. I find that the staff is very friendly when I shop there, they don't seem to stress or unhappy about their health insurance to me.


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## janicesmith (Mar 22, 2014)

Good thing abortions were not legal 30 years (or so) ago. Some of us might not be here!


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## uscgmom4 (Jul 6, 2012)

Gerripho said:


> Ethics? Is it ethical to force someone to go against their deeply held beliefs before allowing them to run a business? Of the 20 FDA approved birth control pills, the owners had no objections to 16 of them. They believe the other 4 to cause abortions after conception and do not want to pay for those 4. They do not discriminate against anyone who is pro abortion in their hiring practices, nor would they terminate anyone's employment over a differing opinion or belief. In all ways they are very tolerant of people who believe in abortion. It's a shame they can't receive the same level of tolerance from others. Instead, they are mocked, called unethical, boycotted, and expected to not only permit their employees to abort babies, which they do, but to pay for it as well. So much for freedom and liberty. More to the point -- so much for being tolerant.
> 
> If you like the yarn, then don't bite off your nose to spite your face.


Amen! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

janicesmith said:


> Good thing abortions were not legal 30 years (or so) ago. Some of us might not be here!


And perhaps our mother's wouldn't either. At work - about 1968 - one of the telephone operators decided to perform her own abortion in the ladies' room using a knitting needle! She succeeded in aborting; she was rushed to the hospital; she never got the chance to have another pregnancy.

I may not be comfortable with the idea of abortion, but I'll fight to the hilt for it to be legal and obtainable by those who want it. When it's not legal, girls/women who are feeling cornered go to dangerous extremes to abort, and they often die in the process. Abortions performed in sterile conditions - hospital or clinic - are _rarely_ fatal to the woman. Then there are those who just suicide.

Or, perhaps our society is no better than those elsewhere that place a high value on males and next to no value on females?


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## kayortiz (Aug 12, 2013)

my daughter has told me i need to boycott HL, but i can not get Yarn Bee brand any where else and i really LOOOOVE some of that yarn. i recently picked up a skein of silver christmas yarn from the sale bin and someone must want me to have it because when i looked at the price it was marked down to $3.29 and every other one in the bin was $4.19. i don't shop there often but they do have accessories i can't get anywhere else. no i don't agree with their insurance views since they invest in companies that make the very product they are against, but if you want the yarn buy it.


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## Ginny75 (Aug 27, 2014)

JohnnyB said:


> I have a limited yarn budget and usually buy from the box stores unless I get yarn $ for Christmas which I would spend at my LYS. One store I frequent has, IMHO, the softest acrylic worsted in a wide palate of colors. However, I don't agree with the politics nor the HR restrictions they espouse. What to do? Boycott the place and buy yarn I don't like as much elsewhere, or buy what I want and then feel guilty ? Seems like a no win situation to me. Anyone else out there in the same boat ? What would you do ? TIA.  :shock:


Have you tried finding it online? If you can that would solve the problem. Good luck!


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## kayortiz (Aug 12, 2013)

yep first thing i did was look on line. i do a lot of online shopping since i don't have a vehicle anymore and gas has gotten so expensive. i can find small amount of yarn bee in a few colors on various sites. this is the first time i have been to HL in over a year so i am sure they do not miss my purchases. i will post a picture the the fingerless gloves i had to get the yarn for when i get them done. the yarn is soooo soft.


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## samdog13 (May 24, 2014)

We have had several debates here about Hobby Lobby. I personally do not shop there and find equally nice and inexpensive yarns other places, including sales at my LYS, on the internet and other sales. You should decide for yourself and follow your own inner voice. Don't feel that you have to justify your decision.to us or anyone.


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## Jan's (Oct 6, 2013)

Since we now live in this liberal bias world and anyone having a different opinion even though we are supposed to have freedom of speech - get over it. Maybe if you liberals were informed as to what Hobby Lobby believes you might back them instead of condemning them for what they believe. When someone does not agree with you all you want to do is destroy them. I cannot imagine what this country is going to be like in the future when our freedoms are gone and you wonder where they went. If you boycott Hobby Lobby I shop there even more. Sorry to be political but this supposedly "war on women" is a great liberal joke on all women!


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## asyinger (Apr 20, 2012)

I believe that the owners of a business have the responsibility before God to not pay for actions that they believe are sinful. The employees have the freedom to choose whether or not to work there and whether or not to pay for their actions out of their own pockets.
Personally, I think that doing business only with people who agree with your religious beliefs is narrow minded. Tolerance is disagreeing with someone without trying to hurt or punish them into compliance with your beliefs, but relying on gentle persuasion and reason in your effort to come to agreement.


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## RED2nd (Nov 5, 2011)

x


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## RED2nd (Nov 5, 2011)

x


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## ginnyinnr (May 20, 2012)

JohnnyB said:


> I have a limited yarn budget and usually buy from the box stores unless I get yarn $ for Christmas which I would spend at my LYS. One store I frequent has, IMHO, the softest acrylic worsted in a wide palate of colors. However, I don't agree with the politics nor the HR restrictions they espouse. What to do? Boycott the place and buy yarn I don't like as much elsewhere, or buy what I want and then feel guilty ? Seems like a no win situation to me. Anyone else out there in the same boat ? What would you do ? TIA. :shock:


If I went with politics right now, I shouldn't be living here right now, right?
The Supreme court has made decisions over the years I really disagree with, but I love this country, and I make my own world in it.


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## 1grammyshouse (May 16, 2014)

Lots of different opinions on here. Bottom line is that not everyone agrees with everyone else. I'm sure I wouldn't agree with the policies of a lot of the stores I frequent. However, their policies haven't been part of lawsuits, so I am unaware of what they are. If you feel guilty shopping there, then don't. If they have a product you really want, buy it. The choice is yours.


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## sritchie171 (Jul 3, 2013)

HO has alot of choices and great prices. Don't bite off your nose to spite your face! If the workers don't agree with their policy, they can find other jobs. Buy your yarn and enjoy!


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## Brendij (Jul 14, 2012)

The Hobby Lobby controversy is value based. I have always believed that when people have a difference of opinion they can agree to disagree. The people that chose to work at Hobby Lobby accepted their positions and if they stay they are making their own decisions.


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## .79315 (Dec 5, 2012)

If I were to boycott Hobby Lobby it would be because they seem to carry less and less of my chosen products. I prefer to buy American Made Yarn.


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## ali'sfolly (Oct 27, 2012)

Jessica-Jean said:


> And perhaps our mother's wouldn't either. At work - about 1968 - one of the telephone operators decided to perform her own abortion in the ladies' room using a knitting needle! She succeeded in aborting; she was rushed to the hospital; she never got the chance to have another pregnancy.
> 
> I may not be comfortable with the idea of abortion, but I'll fight to the hilt for it to be legal and obtainable by those who want it. When it's not legal, girls/women who are feeling cornered go to dangerous extremes to abort, and they often die in the process. Abortions performed in sterile conditions - hospital or clinic - are _rarely_ fatal to the woman. Then there are those who just suicide.
> 
> Or, perhaps our society is no better than those elsewhere that place a high value on males and next to no value on females?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I've often enjoyed your responses. They are well thought out and well stated. This response is no exception. Thank you for taking the time to make it!


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## Carol J. (Jan 27, 2011)

I shop at Hobby Lobby often. If I want to get out of the house and visit someplace comfortable, inviting and pleasant, that is where I go. I have always been treated respectfully and the clerks go overboard helping people. If we would stop buying yarn not made in the USA, we will need to find another hobby. Who takes the time to check out the store owner's religion, politics, and family life before shopping? We all have our preferences and have the right to choose where we shop. HL must be doing something right, the store is always busy with customers. 

Carol J.


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## mjo (Jul 21, 2012)

Follow your heart - if it doesn't feel good to you to shop at a store that you don't agree with the owners personal convictions then by all means don't shop there. After all the courts ruled that the same store could refuse to provide certain medicines to there employees giving the owners a choice why should you feel bad also making a choice not to support them. 
Personally I don't believe my employer should make health decisions for me that is between me and my doctor. 
Don't feel bad and shop where you feel best at


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## cathy73 (Apr 8, 2013)

HL stores are being vilified because they do not wish to pay for abortions? They provide insurance that offers multiple forms of birth control. If a person chooses to abort their baby why should their employer pay for it? What ever happened to having principles and trying to live by them? There are many people and businesses who have opinions I disagree with but I see no reason to try to keep them from having their own opinions.


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## gbelle (Apr 27, 2013)

Dijewe, what a great blanket!!


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## ginnyinnr (May 20, 2012)

From your note, it seems that your daughter has strong opinions against HL. Don't let them be yours if you don't care about it. I disagree with my grown kids a lot. They make their own decisions. What you or I do with HL isn't going to put them out of business, why be sick about it on your own.

G


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## Carole Jeanne (Nov 18, 2011)

Gerripho said:


> Ethics? Is it ethical to force someone to go against their deeply held beliefs before allowing them to run a business? Of the 20 FDA approved birth control pills, the owners had no objections to 16 of them. They believe the other 4 to cause abortions after conception and do not want to pay for those 4. They do not discriminate against anyone who is pro abortion in their hiring practices, nor would they terminate anyone's employment over a differing opinion or belief. In all ways they are very tolerant of people who believe in abortion. It's a shame they can't receive the same level of tolerance from others. Instead, they are mocked, called unethical, boycotted, and expected to not only permit their employees to abort babies, which they do, but to pay for it as well. So much for freedom and liberty. More to the point -- so much for being tolerant.
> 
> If you like the yarn, then don't bite off your nose to spite your face.


Amen.

I never hear the women's rights people one whit concerned with the babies they abort. But I have witnessed the ravaging effects of their long term guilt.

If it's not a baby why get an abortion?


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## uscgmom4 (Jul 6, 2012)

asyinger said:


> I believe that the owners of a business have the responsibility before God to not pay for actions that they believe are sinful. The employees have the freedom to choose whether or not to work there and whether or not to pay for their actions out of their own pockets.
> Personally, I think that doing business only with people who agree with your religious beliefs is narrow minded. Tolerance is disagreeing with someone without trying to hurt or punish them into compliance with your beliefs, but relying on gentle persuasion and reason in your effort to come to agreement.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## .79315 (Dec 5, 2012)

Carol J. said:


> I shop at Hobby Lobby often. If I want to get out of the house and visit someplace comfortable, inviting and pleasant, that is where I go. I have always been treated respectfully and the clerks go overboard helping people. If we would stop buying yarn not made in the USA, we will need to find another hobby. Who takes the time to check out the store owner's religion, politics, and family life before shopping? We all have our preferences and have the right to choose where we shop. HL must be doing something right, the store is always busy with customers.
> 
> Carol J.


Well said and may I add I did not say I do boycott Hobby Lobby because I don't. I just said that if I did not buy there it is because they carry less and less of the yarn I prefer. Their product "I love this yarn" is amazing and I love the colors but when I tried to use it, it created an allergic outbreak that almost hospitalized me. They do carry many other products that I do like to buy. My point is I prefer to buy American made where/when I can.


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## Carole Jeanne (Nov 18, 2011)

dijewe said:


> Thank you. I saw a picture in a magazine of a quilt pattern and through a bit of trial error figured out how to knit it. I actually used MS excel to figure it out before knitting .


Wow. Great work!! Thanks for sharing!!

What wonders we can do with a piece of graph paper and (for me at least) a lot of frogging!


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## Finnsbride (Feb 8, 2011)

DonnieK said:


> I personally have been boycotting Hobby Lobby for years though I love the "I Love this yarn" "I love this Cotton" "I love this wool", but, I can find other yarns at garage sales, thrift shops, online, from sellers here on KP without having to sacrifice my beliefs. I have made Hobby Lobby "big guys" that I am boycotting and will continue to do so until they stop hiding behind their "religious beliefs" to further their own good. One person not buy from them may not matter, but one person telling 1,000's of other people can make a difference. If everyone would stop shopping at their stores for just one day, they might get the picture.
> I would stand up for my beliefs and my inner feelings. You won't go wrong in doing so.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## .79315 (Dec 5, 2012)

DonnieK said:


> I personally have been boycotting Hobby Lobby for years though I love the "I Love this yarn" "I love this Cotton" "I love this wool", but, I can find other yarns at garage sales, thrift shops, online, from sellers here on KP without having to sacrifice my beliefs. I have made Hobby Lobby "big guys" that I am boycotting and will continue to do so until they stop hiding behind their "religious beliefs" to further their own good. One person not buy from them may not matter, but one person telling 1,000's of other people can make a difference. If everyone would stop shopping at their stores for just one day, they might get the picture.
> I would stand up for my beliefs and my inner feelings. You won't go wrong in doing so.


I hear what you are saying, and support your opinion, but aren't you doing the same thing as Hobby Lobby ? Who are standing up for their inner feelings Sounds like a stalemate.


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## Longtimer (May 23, 2013)

Gerripho said:


> Ethics? Is it ethical to force someone to go against their deeply held beliefs before allowing them to run a business? Of the 20 FDA approved birth control pills, the owners had no objections to 16 of them. They believe the other 4 to cause abortions after conception and do not want to pay for those 4. They do not discriminate against anyone who is pro abortion in their hiring practices, nor would they terminate anyone's employment over a differing opinion or belief. In all ways they are very tolerant of people who believe in abortion. It's a shame they can't receive the same level of tolerance from others. Instead, they are mocked, called unethical, boycotted, and expected to not only permit their employees to abort babies, which they do, but to pay for it as well. So much for freedom and liberty. More to the point -- so much for being tolerant.
> 
> If you like the yarn, then don't bite off your nose to spite your face.


Well said.


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## Knittin' in Georgia (Jun 27, 2013)

Gerripho said:


> Ethics? Is it ethical to force someone to go against their deeply held beliefs before allowing them to run a business? Of the 20 FDA approved birth control pills, the owners had no objections to 16 of them. They believe the other 4 to cause abortions after conception and do not want to pay for those 4. They do not discriminate against anyone who is pro abortion in their hiring practices, nor would they terminate anyone's employment over a differing opinion or belief. In all ways they are very tolerant of people who believe in abortion. It's a shame they can't receive the same level of tolerance from others. Instead, they are mocked, called unethical, boycotted, and expected to not only permit their employees to abort babies, which they do, but to pay for it as well. So much for freedom and liberty. More to the point -- so much for being tolerant.
> 
> If you like the yarn, then don't bite off your nose to spite your face.


Thanks for posting the facts in this case. According to my understanding, you are correct. I appreciate Hobby Lobby for their moral stand: and I love the fact that they do not fear playing Christian music in their stores. Plus, I have not heard about any complaints from the employees. So, I will shop there when I have the opportunity.


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## Madelyn (Aug 16, 2014)

Do you know the employee policies for all the places you shop?

It might surprise you that some places have reduced employee hours and even employees so they do not have to offer decent plans or even plans at all.

Just because one place stood for its principles does not mean any others have or even have principals. Smaller stores may offer nothing at all.

That said, I do shop my principles including buying American and those products which do not abuse animals in testing or in their making.


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## cbjlinda (May 25, 2011)

If you feel that strongly I don't see how you can? I think if you really feel that way then you should bite the bullet and pay a higher price but that is just me. if it is hobby lobby you are talking about you will find that all of their employees are quite happy with their working conditions. I think a lot of that was blown way our of perportion. I am friends with someone who knows the owners on a personal basis and although they are religious people who happen to stand up for their right to believe in God they were not denying their employees birth control they just did not agree to pay for abortions. I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if people do not want to work or support them because of their opinons then they are just as entitled not too.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I have carefully read all comments. There are many individual conclusions, each heart-felt. Here is my addition to the poll. 

I believe in women's right to choose, with the advice of her personal physician. I also believe in living my life in accordance with my beliefs. And I believe if others do so, the marketplace will determine the issue. I can live peacefully with that.

There are many, many sources of yarn available.


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## teutases (Mar 24, 2013)

If there were ANY chance that your sacrifice would matter to change what is a strong opinion by management, I might refrain from purchasing at that store.

However, the company has spent an enormous amount on legal fees already, backing up their code of behavior. 

Remember, their employees have the freedom of choice to pay for their own particular decisions.


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## Hazel Blumberg - McKee (Sep 9, 2011)

You might want to check out some more online yarn sites. They have incredibly reasonably priced yarns. Some suggestions: elann.com, Smiley's, IceYarns (yes, the shipping is expensive, but the yarn prices are so low that a ball of yarn ends up costing you very little), Grand River Yarns. If you're against the politics of a store, you'll end up kicking yourself whenever you go in there and buy something.

Hazel


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## samdog13 (May 24, 2014)

Knittin' in Georgia said:


> Thanks for posting the facts in this case. According to my understanding, you are correct. I appreciate Hobby Lobby for their moral stand: and I love the fact that they do not fear playing Christian music in their stores. Plus, I have not heard about any complaints from the employees. So, I will shop there when I have the opportunity.


We all have our an opinion. As a Jew, I personally don't like being subjected to Christian music whenI shop. I also do not like their position on health care, so I choose to spend my money elsewhere. Shop there if you want, don't shop there if you want, but let us agree to disagree without strident tones. This is a discussion group so let us be civilized, please.


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## Carol J. (Jan 27, 2011)

DorisAnn said:


> If I were to boycott Hobby Lobby it would be because they seem to carry less and less of my chosen products. I prefer to buy American Made Yarn.


What brand of yarn is American made?

Carol J.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

IMO there is a chance that the 'sacrifice' may change the strong opinion of management. If the company loses in the marketplace, perhaps other employers will hesitate to bring their 'beliefs' into the discussion in the future.

When I choose to work for someone, buy their products or purchase their stock, I don't expect that company to tell me how to think. In fact I resent the attempt.



teutases said:


> If there were ANY chance that your sacrifice would matter to change what is a strong opinion by management, I might refrain from purchasing at that store.
> 
> However, the company has spent an enormous amount on legal fees already, backing up their code of behavior.
> 
> Remember, their employees have the freedom of choice to pay for their own particular decisions.


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## ginnyinnr (May 20, 2012)

samdog13 said:


> We all have our an opinion. As a Jew, I personally don't like being subjected to Christian music whenI shop. I also do not like their position on health care, so I choose to spend my money elsewhere. Shop there if you want, don't shop there if you want, but let us agree to disagree without strident tones. This is a discussion group so let us be civilized, please.


what is wrong with Christian music, it is just a code of behavior toward others. Tolerance for diversity, I don't let others music bother me.


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## amberdragon (Dec 12, 2011)

my insurance does not pay for all the drugs my doctor prescribes...so i have to choose either pay for the drug myself or ask my dr. for a substitute.i think HL employes are in the same boat and need to choose which is better for them and since over half of the birth control pills are covered by the company insurance i really don't see the problem...
Blessings


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## samdog13 (May 24, 2014)

Carol J. said:


> What brand of yarn is American made?
> 
> Carol J.


There are many many yarns made in the US. All products have to show country of origin on the label. You should see it there and of course there are many small yarn vendors on the internet, check Ravelry and other sites. Many cheaper ones of course are made overseas but you can also check yarn sales etc and find many bargains on American made products.


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## samdog13 (May 24, 2014)

ginnyinnr said:


> what is wrong with Christian music, it is just a code of behavior toward others. Tolerance for diversity, I don't let others music bother me.


I would rather take this discussion offline if you want to continue send me a PM and I will explain it to you...


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## ginnyinnr (May 20, 2012)

[. I am friends with someone who knows the owners on a personal basis and although they are religious people who happen to stand up for their right to believe in God they were not denying their employees birth control they just did not agree to pay for abortions. 

You are 100% correct about their policy. They pay for 18 different birth control methods, just not the morning after pill or outright abortions. The young liberals have blown this way out of proportion. Many of them are OK with birth control, just not abortion, but they don't understand the HL policy.


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## tmvasquez (May 7, 2013)

I personally am proud of Hobby Lobby for taking a stand and winning their case. Go get your yarn.


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## misellen (Mar 8, 2013)

Janicesei said:


> If you boycott people may loose their jobs. If you buy there you get the yarn you want and people keep their jobs.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: I agree with this. They may not be perfect, but at least the employees have jobs. A Hobby Lobby opened a few months ago in a town near me. Believe me, those people were happy to have a place to work.

And I am happy to find nice yarn that I can afford.


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## ginnyinnr (May 20, 2012)

ginnyinnr said:


> what is wrong with Christian music, it is just a code of behavior toward others. Tolerance for diversity, I don't let others music bother me.


Are we in stores to buy yarn of which we make something very personal to us as individuals, or are we in the store to be entertained. Rock music in some stores, I tune it out altogether what ever the theme, and go for what I came to buy.


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## Marindy (Oct 12, 2011)

I agree with you, Gerripho. And this "bad" employer is closed on Sunday so workers have family time.


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## Dowager (Jun 7, 2011)

ParkerEliz said:


> Why feel guilty? No one is forcing the employees to work there. If they choose to work at such a crummy place, that is theirs to own.


You are sooo wrong! In this economy, and don't think for a minute that the recession is over! For most of us it is not, we have to take whatever jobs we can get to feed our families. Yes we can keep looking for a better job, but in most places they just aren't there!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I support you completely.



samdog13 said:


> We all have our an opinion. As a Jew, I personally don't like being subjected to Christian music whenI shop. I also do not like their position on health care, so I choose to spend my money elsewhere. Shop there if you want, don't shop there if you want, but let us agree to disagree without strident tones. This is a discussion group so let us be civilized, please.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

tmvasquez said:


> I personally am proud of Hobby Lobby for taking a stand and winning their case. Go get your yarn.


...and support your beliefs, not mine?


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## janicesmith (Mar 22, 2014)

:thumbup:


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## henhouse2011 (Feb 20, 2011)

damemary said:


> I have carefully read all comments. There are many individual conclusions, each heart-felt. Here is my addition to the poll.
> 
> I believe in women's right to choose, with the advice of her personal physician. I also believe in living my life in accordance with my beliefs. And I believe if others do so, the marketplace will determine the issue. I can live peacefully with that.
> 
> There are many, many sources of yarn available.


I agree with you totally.
Your dollar is your only real vote. Where you choose to spend it is your vote for more of the same. I sign a lot of petitions and have seen they do work in getting even large corporations to change their minds Whatever the original poster decides I commend her for thinking about the subject and bringing it up.


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## Cheryl Straub (Mar 20, 2014)

JohnnyB said:


> I have a limited yarn budget and usually buy from the box stores unless I get yarn $ for Christmas which I would spend at my LYS. One store I frequent has, IMHO, the softest acrylic worsted in a wide palate of colors. However, I don't agree with the politics nor the HR restrictions they espouse. What to do? Boycott the place and buy yarn I don't like as much elsewhere, or buy what I want and then feel guilty ? Seems like a no win situation to me. Anyone else out there in the same boat ? What would you do ? TIA. :shock:


I would check on line for another yarn source. You might be surprised and find another place to buy your yarn for no more then what you were paying for it, and maybe less then you were paying for it. I applaud your ethics. You might try Pinterest or use KP to help find yarn on the web.


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## TapestryArtist (Sep 4, 2013)

I object to the practice of a company forcing their religious beliefs on anyone, especially their employees. Let them practice their beliefs in their favorite religious place. A business is separate from one's religious beliefs, especially if those beliefs are based on "perhaps" saving themselves a "crapfull" of money!


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## gclemens (Feb 18, 2012)

In the end
these things matter most:
How well did you love?
How fully did you live?
How deeply did you let go? 
&#8213; Gautama Buddha


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## tmvasquez (May 7, 2013)

Exactly. We are getting a Hobby Lobby in a couple of months and the town is really excited as there has been a lot of layoffs at a big company here and this business will provide much needed jobs.


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## tmvasquez (May 7, 2013)

I don't think God wants us to compromise our beliefs no matter what the situation whether it is work , family, or play. Shame on you.


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## Villagerbgl (May 13, 2014)

Have not been in target in years


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## Munchn (Mar 3, 2013)

As far as I know Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech is still intact in this country.

I am anti abortion. If the HL decision had gone the other way I would not boycott HL. Would that make a difference? Probably not.

Release the HL issue. It is finished legally. Enough said. :-D


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## Audrey Jeanne (Jun 14, 2012)

Absolutely right on !!!!!!!!!!!

A fabulous statement.


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## Kansas g-ma (Mar 7, 2014)

Linda6885 said:


> The case for Hobby Lobby (if that is who you were talking about) have won their case. BOO, I don't agree with it either. But I really do not think bocotting the store at this late date will do any good. But this is your call. Myself, I am not fond of HL and I can count on one hand the number of times I have shopped there, and i don't use acrylic yarns much either. But you have have to go with what your heart tells you.


And, if it is HL, one of my "kids" (I'm a retired teacher) has contact with the company and they pay much better than most big box and are closed on Sunday so employees have time for family. While I don't like their law issue, I sometimes have to buy there either because it is the only place in town or better quality or cheaper price (coupon!)


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## Nana5 (Aug 17, 2011)

Gerripho said:


> Ethics? Is it ethical to force someone to go against their deeply held beliefs before allowing them to run a business? Of the 20 FDA approved birth control pills, the owners had no objections to 16 of them. They believe the other 4 to cause abortions after conception and do not want to pay for those 4. They do not discriminate against anyone who is pro abortion in their hiring practices, nor would they terminate anyone's employment over a differing opinion or belief. In all ways they are very tolerant of people who believe in abortion. It's a shame they can't receive the same level of tolerance from others. Instead, they are mocked, called unethical, boycotted, and expected to not only permit their employees to abort babies, which they do, but to pay for it as well. So much for freedom and liberty. More to the point -- so much for being tolerant.
> 
> If you like the yarn, then don't bite off your nose to spite your face.


Well said!! You see it on the web, facebook and e-mails where the truth is not always stated. One of the things this country was founded on was religious freedom. We can't hold that to be true and then chastise someone for using it. I may not agree with their beliefs but I won't punish them for believing that way.


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## flightpath (May 4, 2014)

Jessica-Jean said:


> No need to figure it out; it's done: http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/a-recipe-for-fish
> 
> http://tilla2-irisknits.blogspot.ca/2006/02/tessellating-fish-knitting-pattern.html
> 
> http://www.crochetville.com/community/topic/44604-tesselating-fish-blanket/


Thank you!! Don't know how you always manage these things, but appreciate them.

:-D


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## marimom (Aug 27, 2011)

why is it so difficult to understand that some people do have religious beliefs that prevent certain actions. after all, isn't that one of the principals that the united states is based on?
what about the famous chicken corporation that is not open on Sunday.
so many others have voiced their opinions on this subject. 
I guess you want to follow your heart rather than your brain because if you really luv the yarn, the store, after all, is catering to you.


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## ginnyinnr (May 20, 2012)

marimom said:


> why is it so difficult to understand that some people do have religious beliefs that prevent certain actions. after all, isn't that one of the principals that the united states is based on?
> what about the famous chicken corporation that is not open on Sunday.
> so many others have voiced their opinions on this subject.
> I guess you want to follow your heart rather than your brain because if you really luv the yarn, the store, after all, is catering to you.


Perfect


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## wolfey9 (Aug 17, 2011)

When I break down for convenience sake and shop someplace that where their policies or politics make me uncomfortable, I always feel guilty later. 
That being said, discussing the HL issue. I stopped shopping there after my first visit because the music was annoying to me. It actually caused me to leave before I had looked at everything. If you want a successful business, you should make the atmosphere welcoming to all people.
Also, the Supreme Court issue. You discuss the owner's beliefs-this business has been incorporated. How does a corporation have beliefs? Do you question your employer on their religious beliefs before you take a job? Maybe you should because if we continue down this path, there are some religions that do not agree with the use of blood products in medical care. Are you going to support their religious beliefs as strongly? Are you willing to be employed by them?
And thank you JessicaJean for reminding us all of the past, of the desperate women (many of them already mothers) who lost their lives by not having access to the care they needed.


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## moritta (Sep 14, 2011)

I worked temp at HL during Christmas. Management treated me well. I didn't stay because of one particular supervisor who aggravated the xyz out of me because she has no manners. Other than that it was a pleasant place to work. The salary, compared to same positions at Kroger, TJMax, and other stores, is very good. Much higher than minimum.

As far as the abortion issue, none of that is even mentioned. They have a right to have their opionion.


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## imalulu (May 19, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> If it where me (and it is just me), if I felt That Strongly about the LYS "ethics and policies", I would search for another source.
> I would never compromise my inner being for yarn.
> 
> Certainly, you can find another distributor who carries the yarns as this LYS. No?


My thoughts, exactly.


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## cbjlinda (May 25, 2011)

me too" I think in this day in age anyone who will stand up for their religious beliefs should be commended. it was not that many years ago in history where we did not have that right. Where I live in n.c. it is nothing to see families join hands in a restaurant and say a prayer before eating. I remember growing up that way and somewhere along the line it was forgotten. I have a good friend who I go out with and she reminds me lols


tmvasquez said:


> I personally am proud of Hobby Lobby for taking a stand and winning their case. Go get your yarn.


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## Beetytwird (Jan 19, 2011)

DonnieK said:


> I personally have been boycotting Hobby Lobby for years though I love the "I Love this yarn" "I love this Cotton" "I love this wool", but, I can find other yarns at garage sales, thrift shops, online, from sellers here on KP without having to sacrifice my beliefs. I have made Hobby Lobby "big guys" that I am boycotting and will continue to do so until they stop hiding behind their "religious beliefs" to further their own good. One person not buy from them may not matter, but one person telling 1,000's of other people can make a difference. If everyone would stop shopping at their stores for just one day, they might get the picture.
> I would stand up for my beliefs and my inner feelings. You won't go wrong in doing so.


DonnieK....unless I miss read your statement or miss understand the meaning, you feel it is alright to stand on your beliefs but the folks who own Hobby Lobby cannot.....strange.


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## Beetytwird (Jan 19, 2011)

JohnnyB said:


> I have a limited yarn budget and usually buy from the box stores unless I get yarn $ for Christmas which I would spend at my LYS. One store I frequent has, IMHO, the softest acrylic worsted in a wide palate of colors. However, I don't agree with the politics nor the HR restrictions they espouse. What to do? Boycott the place and buy yarn I don't like as much elsewhere, or buy what I want and then feel guilty ? Seems like a no win situation to me. Anyone else out there in the same boat ? What would you do ? TIA. :shock:


What is " IMHO" please?


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## John's old lady (Jul 14, 2012)

We have a relatively new HL near here, but I will not shop there-ever. HL's owners are entitled to their beliefs (as are we all), but basically they chose to ignore the established law as passed by Congress and pursue their suit. My dollars will not be paying their lawyers. 

As someone stated earlier, yes, I am sure there are places I patronize who have beliefs and policies with which I would not agree, but those entities have not gone 'public' as HL has. HL has created this controversy and will have to realize that there may be some consequences to their actions.


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## Raybo (Mar 12, 2011)

Gerripho said:


> Ethics? Is it ethical to force someone to go against their deeply held beliefs before allowing them to run a business? Of the 20 FDA approved birth control pills, the owners had no objections to 16 of them. They believe the other 4 to cause abortions after conception and do not want to pay for those 4. They do not discriminate against anyone who is pro abortion in their hiring practices, nor would they terminate anyone's employment over a differing opinion or belief. In all ways they are very tolerant of people who believe in abortion. It's a shame they can't receive the same level of tolerance from others. Instead, they are mocked, called unethical, boycotted, and expected to not only permit their employees to abort babies, which they do, but to pay for it as well. So much for freedom and liberty. More to the point -- so much for being tolerant.
> 
> If you like the yarn, then don't bite off your nose to spite your face.


Why did you jump to the conclusion that you know what store she is referring to? :-(


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## ElyseKnox (Sep 16, 2011)

Donnie,
You say that you buy the yarn but do not compromise your beliefs since you did not pay for it at H L. The bottom line is the same thing. Would you approach someone just coming out of H L and offer to buy the yarn they just purchased? Buying it at garage sales, etc. is in the end the same thing.

Notice, I am not saying you should or should not 'do' anything, just pointing out that you are still supporting H L anytime you buy their products whether or not it was directly from a store or from others who purchased it at the store.



DonnieK said:


> I personally have been boycotting Hobby Lobby for years though I love the "I Love this yarn" "I love this Cotton" "I love this wool", but, I can find other yarns at garage sales, thrift shops, online, from sellers here on KP without having to sacrifice my beliefs. I have made Hobby Lobby "big guys" that I am boycotting and will continue to do so until they stop hiding behind their "religious beliefs" to further their own good. One person not buy from them may not matter, but one person telling 1,000's of other people can make a difference. If everyone would stop shopping at their stores for just one day, they might get the picture.
> I would stand up for my beliefs and my inner feelings. You won't go wrong in doing so.


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## Marindy (Oct 12, 2011)

Thank you for that perspective. When my children were growing up, we had Jewish neighbors and we respected each other's beliefs. They loved the decorations at Christmas and often joined us for dinner. When my neighbor said she wasn't going to keep separate sets of dishes, I encouraged her to keep their traditions. She said that she respected us for taking the children to church every Sunday. I believe my children learned a valuable lesson about tolerance.


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## JYannucci (Nov 29, 2011)

I never used this store, and never will. They scored a victory for themselves in their beliefs. Since I don't share them, I won't buy from them. I didn't eat grapes in the 60's because of boycott, brought the price down. So you can change things.


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## Gweneth 1946 (May 20, 2012)

If by your not shopping at that shop, because of their policies, will change anything then don't shop there. But why punish yourself for something that will probably never change ,unless they sell to someone else. Buy what you like and boogie on out. You know what you like and what they have to give and what you can afford. Buying on line is fine if what you get is to your liking, but you won't know till you get it. Then if it is not what you wanted you are stuck with either returning it or having to use it. :?


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## beachknit (Oct 25, 2011)

jmcret05 said:


> Personally, I don't shop at places that don't treat their employees fairly, no matter what they are selling.
> 
> KnitPicks and several other places online have great sales from time to time. Elann.com has special prices on some really nice yarns.
> http://www.elann.com/commerce.web/product_list.aspx?catID=30&type=yarn
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## birdwomn (Aug 31, 2014)

It seems that this has become a discussion of a particular chain, which the original poster may or may not have been referring to. I agree with the advice that if you do choose to boycott a particular store or chain of stores, you need to let them know why, both locally and at the corporate level, if one exists. 

If managers and owners do not know exactly what is happening and why you object to it, how can you expect them to change or correct the situation? 

It does take a bit of effort to speak up, but if you feel strongly about it...make the effort.


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## FarmerJo (Feb 11, 2013)

birdwomn said:


> It seems that this has become a discussion of a particular chain, which the original poster may or may not have been referring to. I agree with the advice that if you do choose to boycott a particular store or chain of stores, you need to let them know why, both locally and at the corporate level, if one exists.
> 
> If managers and owners do not know exactly what is happening and why you object to it, how can you expect them to change or correct the situation?
> 
> It does take a bit of effort to speak up, but if you feel strongly about it...make the effort.


I think in the case of Hobby Lobby, they are well aware of why some people will boycott their store. I personally choose not to shop there for other reasons as well.


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## Knittin' in Georgia (Jun 27, 2013)

samdog13 said:


> We all have our an opinion. As a Jew, I personally don't like being subjected to Christian music whenI shop. I also do not like their position on health care, so I choose to spend my money elsewhere. Shop there if you want, don't shop there if you want, but let us agree to disagree without strident tones. This is a discussion group so let us be civilized, please.


After re-reading my comment, I do not see any "strident" or "uncivilized" words. This is the problem with this kind of communication, since one can't hear the tone of voice. You mis-read my tone. As for the music, I am subjected to rap and other disagreeable music in most other stores, which is as offensive to me as Christian music is to you. I agree that we do each have the right to our opinion, but it seems it is politically incorrect to express it.


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## Swwhidbee (Oct 13, 2012)

Gerripho, thanks for your reply.&#128522;


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## Linda333 (Feb 26, 2011)

Gerripho said:


> Ethics? Is it ethical to force someone to go against their deeply held beliefs before allowing them to run a business? Of the 20 FDA approved birth control pills, the owners had no objections to 16 of them. They believe the other 4 to cause abortions after conception and do not want to pay for those 4. They do not discriminate against anyone who is pro abortion in their hiring practices, nor would they terminate anyone's employment over a differing opinion or belief. In all ways they are very tolerant of people who believe in abortion. It's a shame they can't receive the same level of tolerance from others. Instead, they are mocked, called unethical, boycotted, and expected to not only permit their employees to abort babies, which they do, but to pay for it as well. So much for freedom and liberty. More to the point -- so much for being tolerant.
> 
> If you like the yarn, then don't bite off your nose to spite your face.


Thank you so very much for setting the record straight. Many people believe that Hobby Lobby would not support any form of birth control. They are a Christian organization, and do not want to support abortion, as you previously stated. What is the reason for boycotting them? What are they doing that is so upsetting? I simply don't get it!


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## reborn knitter (Apr 7, 2013)

Swwhidbee said:


> Gerripho, thanks for your reply.😊


I agree !

And here I thought the ethical question about yarn had to do with sheep and other animals being FLEECED! Sorry, I couldn't resist !


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## MrsB (Jun 3, 2011)

My favorite online yarn source is where the prices are so cheap you can't believe it. True, the shipping is a bit high but when you get yarn so cheaply, it's still a good deal.

http://www.iceyarns.com/#db97

Or, try this source: http://www.numei.com/
I love that this site carries mixed wool blends, which are not as irritating to my skin as 100% wools. One yarn, Aberdeen is a mix of color, almost like a tweed.

Content: 50% Wool, 50% Acrylic
Weight/Yardage: 1.75 oz/50 grams; 98 yards/90 meters
Gauge: 15 st & 20 rows = 4 in x 4 in on US Size 10 (6 mm) needles.
Care: Handwash, shape, lay flat to dry.
Knitting Weight: Bulky
Made in Italy


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

I boycott more than one brand of store and will continue to boycott them. We make decisions that suit our ethics and we should stand by them. Well, that is what works for me.


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## calmlake (May 16, 2011)

go to Ebay, type in I love this yarn. Choices are there to buy from someone else.


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## SawshaK (May 16, 2011)

dijewe, I love that blanket. Beautiful colors and so vibrant. Congratulations on that and it wearing so well.


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## LindaBridge (Aug 9, 2014)

Every individual has a right to his/her opinions but I do not feel it is right for anyone to insist on making another person follow the bosses religious dictates, especially a corporation. 

All businesses are hiring employees to work, not to monitor their private lives. You might agree with the people who are doing this now, how would you feel if your employer decided you had to cover your hair or keep yourself completely covered because that was his religious belief? 

Our constitution gave us separation from church and state. We need to keep with that and not wait until our OWN ox is being gored. You can believe I stopped shopping at that store the minute I heard about the law suit. I do not shop where they want to infringe upon my or other people's rights. 

There is a difference between individual freedom and making others do what you want. It would be nice if everyone learned that.


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## misellen (Mar 8, 2013)

Shylinn said:


> My problem with HL is not their religious beliefs...It is the fact that they do not allow their employees to exercise their right, within the law, to follow their own religious beliefs without paying an amount that they cannot afford on the salary they receive. Find another job is just not possible in many of our towns. Abortion is legal here. If HL can choose which laws they will or will not support, why have any laws at all. HL can have their beliefs, just let me exercise mine without penalizing me for them.


I am just curious. How were you penalized?


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## misellen (Mar 8, 2013)

Jessica-Jean said:


> And perhaps our mother's wouldn't either. At work - about 1968 - one of the telephone operators decided to perform her own abortion in the ladies' room using a knitting needle! She succeeded in aborting; she was rushed to the hospital; she never got the chance to have another pregnancy.
> 
> I may not be comfortable with the idea of abortion, but I'll fight to the hilt for it to be legal and obtainable by those who want it. When it's not legal, girls/women who are feeling cornered go to dangerous extremes to abort, and they often die in the process. Abortions performed in sterile conditions - hospital or clinic - are _rarely_ fatal to the woman. Then there are those who just suicide.
> 
> Or, perhaps our society is no better than those elsewhere that place a high value on males and next to no value on females?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## tnbobie (Jan 19, 2014)

IF this IS HL that is being talked about---Well said


Gerripho said:


> Ethics? Is it ethical to force someone to go against their deeply held beliefs before allowing them to run a business? Of the 20 FDA approved birth control pills, the owners had no objections to 16 of them. They believe the other 4 to cause abortions after conception and do not want to pay for those 4. They do not discriminate against anyone who is pro abortion in their hiring practices, nor would they terminate anyone's employment over a differing opinion or belief. In all ways they are very tolerant of people who believe in abortion. It's a shame they can't receive the same level of tolerance from others. Instead, they are mocked, called unethical, boycotted, and expected to not only permit their employees to abort babies, which they do, but to pay for it as well. So much for freedom and liberty. More to the point -- so much for being tolerant.
> 
> If you like the yarn, then don't bite off your nose to spite your face.


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## Goldrobin (Apr 18, 2014)

cbjlinda said:


> If you feel that strongly I don't see how you can? I think if you really feel that way then you should bite the bullet and pay a higher price but that is just me. if it is hobby lobby you are talking about you will find that all of their employees are quite happy with their working conditions. I think a lot of that was blown way our of perportion. I am friends with someone who knows the owners on a personal basis and although they are religious people who happen to stand up for their right to believe in God they were not denying their employees birth control they just did not agree to pay for abortions. I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if people do not want to work or support them because of their opinons then they are just as entitled not too.


NO ONE is forced to pay for abortions.!!!!! They were arguing that some of the birth control methods were abortificants. They were wrong, but the Supreme Court did not rule on that. They ruled that ANY corporation does not have to pay for any birth cotrol to any of their employees. If HL is so religious, why were they making money off the manufacture of birth control? So, it always comes down to making money for corporations.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Gerripho said:


> Ethics? Is it ethical to force someone to go against their deeply held beliefs before allowing them to run a business? Of the 20 FDA approved birth control pills, the owners had no objections to 16 of them. They believe the other 4 to cause abortions after conception and do not want to pay for those 4. They do not discriminate against anyone who is pro abortion in their hiring practices, nor would they terminate anyone's employment over a differing opinion or belief. In all ways they are very tolerant of people who believe in abortion. It's a shame they can't receive the same level of tolerance from others. Instead, they are mocked, called unethical, boycotted, and expected to not only permit their employees to abort babies, which they do, but to pay for it as well. So much for freedom and liberty. More to the point -- so much for being tolerant.
> 
> If you like the yarn, then don't bite off your nose to spite your face.


Why are you assuming HL is the business in question? Because the shoe fits? I'm sure HL is not the only business trying to overstep.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Jean Large said:


> Follow your own conscience. The highest court in our land has spoken on this issue. Until laws are changed there is nothing we can do. If you boycott you are possibly depriving some one of employment they need to buy food and pay the rent.


Nowadays, calling the US Supreme Court the highest court in our land is poppycock. It appears that the Justices have been bought just like the politicians, along party lines.


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## TapestryArtist (Sep 4, 2013)

They can run their business and they are not forced to go against their deeply held beliefs, as if that is precluding them from being in business. It is not ethical for them to force their deeply held beliefs onto their employees in order to avoid paying insurance that is a right of the very employment. It's about money. Most people "get it".


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## kathimc (Jan 10, 2013)

Jessica-Jean said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup:
> 
> Just because one specific store's owner's beliefs have been made very loudly public does not mean that other stores you buy from do not have personal beliefs that are contrary to your own. Restricting oneself to _only_ those merchants who share one's own beliefs is just not tenable in this supposedly free country. It's what I expect to see - and did see when visiting my husband's extended family for three months at a time twice a year until February 28, 2011 - in Syria. People will travel across the city to buy an item from someone of their distant relatives, same 'tribe', same religious group, same political group, etc. instead of buying the identical item for the identical price from the next door neighbour's shop! This is the mentality of the Middle Ages - at best. It is _not_ a mentality conducive to living together in peace with our neighbours.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :XD: :XD: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## flamingo (Jun 23, 2013)

If you feel that strongly about your LYS, and that's a personal thing, and there's not another shop nearby, shop online. I find good deals and yarns and colors not available at local stores.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Shylinn said:


> My problem with HL is not their religious beliefs...It is the fact that they do not allow their employees to exercise their right, within the law, to follow their own religious beliefs without paying an amount that they cannot afford on the salary they receive. Find another job is just not possible in many of our towns.  Abortion is legal here. If HL can choose which laws they will or will not support, why have any laws at all. HL can have their beliefs, just let me exercise mine without penalizing me for them.


 :thumbup:


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Jessica-Jean said:


> And perhaps our mother's wouldn't either. At work - about 1968 - one of the telephone operators decided to perform her own abortion in the ladies' room using a knitting needle! She succeeded in aborting; she was rushed to the hospital; she never got the chance to have another pregnancy.
> 
> I may not be comfortable with the idea of abortion, but I'll fight to the hilt for it to be legal and obtainable by those who want it. When it's not legal, girls/women who are feeling cornered go to dangerous extremes to abort, and they often die in the process. Abortions performed in sterile conditions - hospital or clinic - are _rarely_ fatal to the woman. Then there are those who just suicide.
> 
> Or, perhaps our society is no better than those elsewhere that place a high value on males and next to no value on females?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## bobctwn65 (Jul 27, 2012)

well you all keep boycotting more for me...I love their yarn and buy lots of it...


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## deshka (Apr 6, 2011)

I try to leave politics out of my 'everyday life'. I am not going to go through the rest of my life bothered by something that whatever I do is not going to make a single bit of difference in the end. I feel like I have done my duty in earlier years, fighting in high school for girl sports between schools, and many other things. I have 4 of my ideas that have become LAWS in Washington. 1, PFD for kids under 16 floating rivers. 2, secure your load while hauling stuff, in truck/trailer. 3, disclosure of information of drug manufacturing in a home to prospective buyers. 4. I forgot. If I buy yarn, or if I don't buy yarn at a certain store, it's not going to make any difference whatsoever to anyone buy me. There are many other kinds of birth control available to all of Hobby Lobby's workers. If and when something comes up that I am totally against, or for, and I feel I can make a change, then I DO something about it. I can't be so concerned about things that are totally out of my control, it would take up too much of my knitting time and still make NO difference. Just my opinion.


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## flamingo (Jun 23, 2013)

Hobby lobby is not breaking any laws and they do offer several types of birth control to their employees, just not morning after pills. This fact is conveniently left out.


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## deshka (Apr 6, 2011)

Jan's said:


> Since we now live in this liberal bias world and anyone having a different opinion even though we are supposed to have freedom of speech - get over it. Maybe if you liberals were informed as to what Hobby Lobby believes you might back them instead of condemning them for what they believe. When someone does not agree with you all you want to do is destroy them. I cannot imagine what this country is going to be like in the future when our freedoms are gone and you wonder where they went. If you boycott Hobby Lobby I shop there even more. Sorry to be political but this supposedly "war on women" is a great liberal joke on all women!


I totally agree with this, and very well stated. thank you.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Have you checked 'on line'? No one is forcing these people to work at this place. (I know some have no choice for financial reasons....)


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## JMBeals (Nov 27, 2013)

Jan's said:


> Since we now live in this liberal bias world and anyone having a different opinion even though we are supposed to have freedom of speech - get over it. Maybe if you liberals were informed as to what Hobby Lobby believes you might back them instead of condemning them for what they believe. When someone does not agree with you all you want to do is destroy them. I cannot imagine what this country is going to be like in the future when our freedoms are gone and you wonder where they went. If you boycott Hobby Lobby I shop there even more. Sorry to be political but this supposedly "war on women" is a great liberal joke on all women!


 Well said! Wish we had a HL in this area.

:thumbup: :thumbup:


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## flhusker (Feb 17, 2011)

Gerripho said:


> Ethics? Is it ethical to force someone to go against their deeply held beliefs before allowing them to run a business? Of the 20 FDA approved birth control pills, the owners had no objections to 16 of them. They believe the other 4 to cause abortions after conception and do not want to pay for those 4. They do not discriminate against anyone who is pro abortion in their hiring practices, nor would they terminate anyone's employment over a differing opinion or belief. In all ways they are very tolerant of people who believe in abortion. It's a shame they can't receive the same level of tolerance from others. Instead, they are mocked, called unethical, boycotted, and expected to not only permit their employees to abort babies, which they do, but to pay for it as well. So much for freedom and liberty. More to the point -- so much for being tolerant.
> 
> If you like the yarn, then don't bite off your nose to spite your face.


Thank you for your well stated and accurate comment. So refreshing to see someone who knows the truth behind all the rhetoric. I shop Hobby Lobby just because others won't. I go out of my way to shop where they have strong beliefs and live by them.


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## Grandma Jo (Feb 18, 2011)

There are three Hobby Lobby's in the whole state of Montana. One of them is in Billings, a little over a hundred miles from where I live. I go to Hobby Lobby whenever I get there because I love their yarn and scrapbooking supplies. The employees all seem very happy to be working there and are very friendly. They are also very busy with customers. I don't think they will miss the people who decide for whatever reason not to shop there. I really don't care about what their insurance pays for or doesn't. If their employee's are happy and well treated, that is enough for me


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## MrsB (Jun 3, 2011)

Here's a list of many places that carry Yarn Bee (Amazon, for instance).

https://www.google.com/search?q=yarn+bee&oq=yarn+bee&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.2743j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

There is no Hobby Lobby (that I'm aware of) in Oregon. But I do frequent Wal-Mart (another company that is targeted for boycotting from time-to-time), JoAnn's and Michaels. They lost my patronage because they are just too expensive. I shop online and get great deals on all kinds of yarns-cotton,acrylics, wools, tweeds, aran, silks, and most especially wool blends, which are harder to find in any of the LYS.


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## MsKathy (May 25, 2013)

Again, my two cents. If you "cut off" dealing with stores, people, etc., because you don't see eye to eye with, you are only hurting yourself. Pick your battles.


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## Marcia1767 (May 2, 2011)

I wish there was a like button. Gerripho, you hit the nail on the head. and you too colorgirl!And so did you Dijewe! And Dijewe that is a beautiful afghan you made for your grandson. That is really beautiful!


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

asyinger said:


> ... I think that doing business only with people who agree with your religious beliefs is narrow minded. Tolerance is disagreeing with someone without trying to hurt or punish them into compliance with your beliefs ...


Well said! :thumbup:



Villagerbgl said:


> Have not been in Target in years


I've been into a couple, just to see if they had anything I wanted. No yarn. Walked out empty handed each time on both sides of the border.



Beetytwird said:


> What is " IMHO" please?


*I*n *M*y *H*umble *O*pinion.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

I have my own dilemma on this front. I received a gift card from Hobby Lobby over six months ago. I have not used it. If I did, I can argue I am not giving my money to them. If I don't use it, Hobby Lobby gets the full value of the card ($60) instead of just the mark up of the merchandize. I graciously accepted the card from the giver. It was payment for pet-sitting at two related households. One has a dog, so it meant many drives over there a day to tend to the pet. A payment of money would have been better, but they meant well and I appreciate that. I just don't know what to do about the gift card. The problem I have with Hobby Lobby is that they dragged their religious beliefs to the Supreme Court thus combining church and state which are supposed to be separate. They have imposed their beliefs on all Americans now. It is just a matter of time before the rolling snowball goes into effect. I don't like the idea that now corporations can pick and choose what to cover. Before the ACA, they could do that, but once the mandate came about, one would think that the laws apply to all. I would like to pick and choose where my tax dollars go for instance. It wouldn't be war or breaks to the very rich. The Supreme Court has now determined that corporations can have beliefs. Stuff like this scares me with its implications. I know my boycott will not make a difference just as my boycott of Walmart and Sam's has not made a difference. But if someone tells me "oh, you can get that at Walmart a lot cheaper" or something like that, I can tell them I don't shop there. The dialogue is now open and a discussion can happen or not. I always say that information is out there and to research it and decide accordingly. I have made my decisions about where my money goes, just not where the gift card goes.


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## dingo (Jun 20, 2011)

I would not buy there. Why should you give your money to a store whose policies you do not agree with.


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## onegrannygoose (May 13, 2011)

I have a system for HB since I dislike them so much If I have to buy something there I get my 40% off coupon and buy only that one item. I don't think they are making money from my purchases and if I need more than one thing I go out of the store and come back in with another 40% coupon. The reason for the coupon is so will buy other things and they make a profit on those things ending up with a profitable sale.


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## pattycake61 (Jan 30, 2011)

Gerripho said:


> Ethics? Is it ethical to force someone to go against their deeply held beliefs before allowing them to run a business? Of the 20 FDA approved birth control pills, the owners had no objections to 16 of them. They believe the other 4 to cause abortions after conception and do not want to pay for those 4. They do not discriminate against anyone who is pro abortion in their hiring practices, nor would they terminate anyone's employment over a differing opinion or belief. In all ways they are very tolerant of people who believe in abortion. It's a shame they can't receive the same level of tolerance from others. Instead, they are mocked, called unethical, boycotted, and expected to not only permit their employees to abort babies, which they do, but to pay for it as well. So much for freedom and liberty. More to the point -- so much for being tolerant.
> 
> If you like the yarn, then don't bite off your nose to spite your face.


I totally agree--very well though out response.


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## SassyToy1 (Mar 31, 2011)

i have been using loveknitting.com they have great prices. it is cheaper than buying in USA. Give them a try great customer service abd yarn comes package beautifully.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

HL has an excellent selection of yarn, etc. and are very helpful. The decision's been made and I think it's the right one. The store is always neat and clean with employees being exceptionally helpful. (Try that at Wal Mart)


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## flamingo (Jun 23, 2013)

Well stated!


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## MsKathy (May 25, 2013)

This is probably the wrong spot to put this, but the Linnie Darling site is having a 1/2 price sale on NORO yarn. I always wanted to try it, but it is so expensive. They may have some left for about $7 for a 220 yard skein.


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## tvarnas (Apr 18, 2013)

dijewe said:


> Thank you. I saw a picture in a magazine of a quilt pattern and through a bit of trial error figured out how to knit it. I actually used MS excel to figure it out before knitting .


Well you're a genius! I love your blanket too.


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## knitster475 (Apr 30, 2014)

I have issues with the CEO of a particular hobby and crafts store chain that foists his views on employees and won't purchase anything there, especially their house brand of yarns. There are so many wonderful yarns available, I'm sure you can find something you like as well, or perhaps even better, and if you shop around, you might be able to get what you want at discount prices. Check on-line shops periodically for sales. Webs (yarn.com) always has lots of deeply discounted closeouts and a generous discount policy on regular priced yarn you might want to check out in addition to regular sales. A few other stores you might try are fabric.com, smileysyarns.com, knitting-warehouse.com, Joann.com, knitpicks.com.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> I have my own dilemma on this front. I received a gift card from Hobby Lobby over six months ago. I have not used it. If I did, I can argue I am not giving my money to them. If I don't use it, Hobby Lobby gets the full value of the card ($60) instead of just the mark up of the merchandize. I graciously accepted the card from the giver. It was payment for pet-sitting at two related households. One has a dog, so it meant many drives over there a day to tend to the pet. A payment of money would have been better, but they meant well and I appreciate that. I just don't know what to do about the gift card. The problem I have with Hobby Lobby is that they dragged their religious beliefs to the Supreme Court thus combining church and state which are supposed to be separate. They have imposed their beliefs on all Americans now. It is just a matter of time before the rolling snowball goes into effect. I don't like the idea that now corporations can pick and choose what to cover. Before the ACA, they could do that, but once the mandate came about, one would think that the laws apply to all. I would like to pick and choose where my tax dollars go for instance. It wouldn't be war or breaks to the very rich. The Supreme Court has now determined that corporations can have beliefs. Stuff like this scares me with its implications. I know my boycott will not make a difference just as my boycott of Walmart and Sam's has not made a difference. But if someone tells me "oh, you can get that at Walmart a lot cheaper" or something like that, I can tell them I don't shop there. The dialogue is now open and a discussion can happen or not. I always say that information is out there and to research it and decide accordingly. I have made my decisions about where my money goes, just not where the gift card goes.


My feelings and reasoning are much like yours. That gift card is quite a quandary..... I've been a pet sitter for the past 11 years and have been fortunate enough not to have that particular problem. Mine run more toward customers becoming lax over time regarding indoor and outdoor lighting and leaving doors unlocked when they leave. It's a spooky feeling to enter a very large home when the door has been left unlocked and there are dozens of places where anyone could hide. I didn't care so much when I was younger, but now that I'm pushing 76 really hard, I don't like it.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> ... I have made my decisions about where my money goes, just not where the gift card goes.


If it's not too far out of your way, I would suggest using onegrannygoose's tactic of stocking up on their coupons and making one-purchase-per-coupon of things you want. By _not_ buying anything else - at full price - you are depriving them of any profit. As a bonus, doing that will also get far more for your card than expected. I call this having your cake and eating it too!


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## TapestryArtist (Sep 4, 2013)

Let them believe what they wish. Don't push it off on people who need jobs to make a living. Religion is religion. Business is business and the two may not intertwine. Many religions are under question by others. Religion is a private thing. Business is business. Pay what you owe those responsible for providing you with your millions $$$. Follow the laws of the land or go where your religion is so honored that you can dictate to others.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

MsKathy said:


> This is probably the wrong spot to put this, but the Linnie Darling site is having a 1/2 price sale on NORO yarn. I always wanted to try it, but it is so expensive. They may have some left for about $7 for a 220 yard skein.


I actually bought some Noro at full price once, but _only_ because the shop owner refused to sell the pattern she'd designed for use with Noro! I never did use the bleeping yarn; this year I gave it to another knitter in our group. I made this with my leftover variegated yarns and that pattern she wouldn't sell alone: http://www.ravelry.com/projects/JessicaJean/mitred-copper-mountain-scarf


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## maomac (Oct 21, 2013)

LindaBridge said:


> Every individual has a right to his/her opinions but I do not feel it is right for anyone to insist on making another person follow the bosses religious dictates, especially a corporation.
> 
> All businesses are hiring employees to work, not to monitor their private lives. You might agree with the people who are doing this now, how would you feel if your employer decided you had to cover your hair or keep yourself completely covered because that was his religious belief?
> 
> ...


There are so many comments in this thread to which I wanted to reply - but yours seemed to resonate the best. I was happy to hear a HL was opening near me (I had shopped there over 10 years ago in another state.) But then I heard more about HL - and made the choice not to shop there. We know so very little about many of the places we choose to spend our money. We have learned about HL. This allows each of us to make the choice based on our own beliefs.


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## maomac (Oct 21, 2013)

Jessica-Jean said:


> And perhaps our mother's wouldn't either. At work - about 1968 - one of the telephone operators decided to perform her own abortion in the ladies' room using a knitting needle! She succeeded in aborting; she was rushed to the hospital; she never got the chance to have another pregnancy.
> 
> I may not be comfortable with the idea of abortion, but I'll fight to the hilt for it to be legal and obtainable by those who want it. When it's not legal, girls/women who are feeling cornered go to dangerous extremes to abort, and they often die in the process. Abortions performed in sterile conditions - hospital or clinic - are _rarely_ fatal to the woman. Then there are those who just suicide.
> 
> Or, perhaps our society is no better than those elsewhere that place a high value on males and next to no value on females?


Thank you.
Let us examine our society as well when looking at organized sports. Players who are also abusers get relatively mild chastisement and financial penalty. They continue to play and earn millions. What value is placed on their female victims?


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man."

Hamlet...Polonius to Laertes

Good advice in any situation


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

maomac said:


> ... Let us examine our society as well when looking at organized sports. Players who are also abusers get relatively mild chastisement and financial penalty. They continue to play and earn millions. What value is placed on their female victims?


Answer to your question: zero. If they dare to press charges, they are the ones villainized and blamed. When such things are made public, have you noticed any empty box seats? Any rows and rows of vacant seats? Not on any shots I've seen on TV. :thumbdown:


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Food for thought there, JJ. That is a way of handling the quandary. I rather like it. I also like your scarf without the Noro yarn. Nice work.


Jessica-Jean said:


> If it's not too far out of your way, I would suggest using onegrannygoose's tactic of stocking up on their coupons and making one-purchase-per-coupon of things you want. By _not_ buying anything else - at full price - you are depriving them of any profit. As a bonus, doing that will also get far more for your card than expected. I call this having your cake and eating it too!


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## sunnybrkk (Oct 8, 2011)

If you have to ask, there's your answer.
I admire your sensitivity and awareness of others around you,possibly at your on expense.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Yikes. I wouldn't want to walk into a dark house that's not been locked. I have duplicate keys for everyone I sit for or a pass code. I am sitting for a rooster and two cats this weekend and the owner gives me an extra garage door opener. I always take in the mail and shovel in the winter so if anyone is watching the house, it appears the owners are home.


SAMkewel said:


> My feelings and reasoning are much like yours. That gift card is quite a quandary..... I've been a pet sitter for the past 11 years and have been fortunate enough not to have that particular problem. Mine run more toward customers becoming lax over time regarding indoor and outdoor lighting and leaving doors unlocked when they leave. It's a spooky feeling to enter a very large home when the door has been left unlocked and there are dozens of places where anyone could hide. I didn't care so much when I was younger, but now that I'm pushing 76 really hard, I don't like it.


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## fourbyin (Oct 6, 2013)

dijewe said:


> You go and get your yarn from Hobbly Lobby if that is what you want. I just recently completed the following blanket for my grandson. All "I Love this yarn' and for under $50. I have made all 3 of my grandchildren blankets with this. My granddaughter's blanket is 4 or 5 years old already and gets washed weekly because she loves it. Still looks perfect.


This blanket is just too cute!


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## fourbyin (Oct 6, 2013)

I believe we all make our own choices in whatever issue we are facing and I'm realistic enough to know that my choice is not gonna make a difference.


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## loubroy (Feb 15, 2013)

Gerripho said:


> Ethics? Is it ethical to force someone to go against their deeply held beliefs before allowing them to run a business? Of the 20 FDA approved birth control pills, the owners had no objections to 16 of them. They believe the other 4 to cause abortions after conception and do not want to pay for those 4. They do not discriminate against anyone who is pro abortion in their hiring practices, nor would they terminate anyone's employment over a differing opinion or belief. In all ways they are very tolerant of people who believe in abortion. It's a shame they can't receive the same level of tolerance from others. Instead, they are mocked, called unethical, boycotted, and expected to not only permit their employees to abort babies, which they do, but to pay for it as well. So much for freedom and liberty. More to the point -- so much for being tolerant.
> 
> If you like the yarn, then don't bite off your nose to spite your face.


I totally agree with your stance but also if a person is so against the ethics of a business then they should stand firm on their beliefs. I think it must be up to the buyer to decide where they want to shop.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

DonnieK said:


> I personally have been boycotting Hobby Lobby for years though I love the "I Love this yarn" "I love this Cotton" "I love this wool", but, I can find other yarns at garage sales, thrift shops, online, from sellers here on KP without having to sacrifice my beliefs. I have made Hobby Lobby "big guys" that I am boycotting and will continue to do so until they stop hiding behind their "religious beliefs" to further their own good. One person not buy from them may not matter, but one person telling 1,000's of other people can make a difference. If everyone would stop shopping at their stores for just one day, they might get the picture.
> I would stand up for my beliefs and my inner feelings. You won't go wrong in doing so.


That is what HL is doing. Standing up for their beliefs and religious convictions. Good for them. I applaud them. They are also closed on Sunday per their religious faith.


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## onegrannygoose (May 13, 2011)

fourbyin said:


> I believe we all make our own choices in whatever issue we are facing and I'm realistic enough to know that my choice is not gonna make a difference.


I disagree your choice along with other people will make a difference. Please don't degrade your worth like that.


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## mh1953 (Aug 14, 2014)

Perfectly said!


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## mh1953 (Aug 14, 2014)

Gerripho said:


> Ethics? Is it ethical to force someone to go against their deeply held beliefs before allowing them to run a business? Of the 20 FDA approved birth control pills, the owners had no objections to 16 of them. They believe the other 4 to cause abortions after conception and do not want to pay for those 4. They do not discriminate against anyone who is pro abortion in their hiring practices, nor would they terminate anyone's employment over a differing opinion or belief. In all ways they are very tolerant of people who believe in abortion. It's a shame they can't receive the same level of tolerance from others. Instead, they are mocked, called unethical, boycotted, and expected to not only permit their employees to abort babies, which they do, but to pay for it as well. So much for freedom and liberty. More to the point -- so much for being tolerant.
> 
> If you like the yarn, then don't bite off your nose to spite your face.


I could not agree more! Well stated


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## Alta Grama (Apr 16, 2012)

LindaBridge said:


> Every individual has a right to his/her opinions but I do not feel it is right for anyone to insist on making another person follow the bosses religious dictates, especially a corporation.
> 
> All businesses are hiring employees to work, not to monitor their private lives. You might agree with the people who are doing this now, how would you feel if your employer decided you had to cover your hair or keep yourself completely covered because that was his religious belief?
> 
> ...


This outlook is so tiresome. HL is simply refusing to pay for ONE TYPE of birth control. They are NOT refusing their employees the right to use that type of birth control if they so choose. They ARE paying for their employees to not procreate if that is their choice. If the employee chooses the easy way out and wants the morning after pill, HL has not taken those pills off the market the pills are still available to them. The option to use those medications is still there for the employee but sometimes individuals' choices come at a cost, as your choice to boycott them may come at a cost to you, be it inconvenience or monetary.

There is no forcing of a specific action involved in HL's stance. They are simply removing their financial support from something that is against their beliefs.

If you withhold an agreed-upon allowance from your child when you know it will go for illegal drugs, are you forcing your beliefs on him? He is still able to, and probably will, find his own funds for the drugs. Would you like to be told you must continue to give him the money because he has the right to choose his own beliefs? Simply withholding funding is NOT forcing someone to follow your beliefs. It may make it a little more difficult for them, but if it's their choice, they will figure a way to do it.

Being forced to wear a particular type of clothing is simply not a reasonable comparison.


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## trout23 (Aug 28, 2012)

Thank you Gerripho. Most people don't even know "the whole story" and you have put it quite eloquently and succinctly. News sources like to spin and get people all riled up without telling the real facts.


Gerripho said:


> Ethics? Is it ethical to force someone to go against their deeply held beliefs before allowing them to run a business? Of the 20 FDA approved birth control pills, the owners had no objections to 16 of them. They believe the other 4 to cause abortions after conception and do not want to pay for those 4. They do not discriminate against anyone who is pro abortion in their hiring practices, nor would they terminate anyone's employment over a differing opinion or belief. In all ways they are very tolerant of people who believe in abortion. It's a shame they can't receive the same level of tolerance from others. Instead, they are mocked, called unethical, boycotted, and expected to not only permit their employees to abort babies, which they do, but to pay for it as well. So much for freedom and liberty. More to the point -- so much for being tolerant.
> 
> If you like the yarn, then don't bite off your nose to spite your face.


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## trout23 (Aug 28, 2012)

Alta Grama said:


> This outlook is so tiresome. HL is simply refusing to pay for ONE TYPE of birth control. They are NOT refusing their employees the right to use that type of birth control if they so choose. They ARE paying for their employees to not procreate if that is their choice. If the employee chooses the easy way out and wants the morning after pill, HL has not taken those pills off the market the pills are still available to them. The option to use those medications is still there for the employee but sometimes individuals' choices come at a cost, as your choice to boycott them may come at a cost to you, be it inconvenience or monetary.
> 
> There is no forcing of a specific action involved in HL's stance. They are simply removing their financial support from something that is against their beliefs.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## trout23 (Aug 28, 2012)

This is what's crazy about this whole HL debacle. I and I alone decide my beliefs. A person telling me not to shop somewhere because of THEIR beliefs is not really the way it works.


Evie RM said:


> That is what HL is doing. Standing up for their beliefs and religious convictions. Good for them. I applaud them. They are also closed on Sunday per their religious faith.


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## Patricia Cecilia (Apr 25, 2012)

Colorgal said:


> Gerripho - Well stated. Everybody has an opinion and the right to shop where ever they wish.


Thank you, Gerripho.


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## trout23 (Aug 28, 2012)

Sorry Evie I just clicked wrong. I was responding to Donnie K.


cher45 said:


> This is what's crazy about this whole HL debacle. I and I alone decide my beliefs. A person telling me not to shop somewhere because of THEIR beliefs is not really the way it works.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Alta Grama said:


> This outlook is so tiresome. HL is simply refusing to pay for ONE TYPE of birth control.


No, they are now not allowing insurance to pay for ANY birth control since the SC changed their ruling to cover ALL forms, not just the 4 they originally ruled on. (changed their ruling the very next day, in fact)

Plus, they do not GIVE their employees health insurance. The employees have to pay for it. Maybe not the full price but they -are- still paying for it so what it comes out to is that HL is making money off their employees as well as their customers.


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## NCNeedler (Jan 6, 2014)

Do you know the political views of all the businesses you patronize? I would venture to say that all of us probably spend money every day in businesses that have a different set of beliefs than we do.....Hobby Lobby just happens to have been in the news because of theirs. You may as well get the yarn you like at the most convenient outlet.....unless of course you're going to research the political views of all the businesses you use and stop using all the ones that differ from yours.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

NCNeedler said:


> Do you know the political views of all the businesses you patronize? I would venture to say that all of us probably spend money every day in businesses that have a different set of beliefs than we do.....Hobby Lobby just happens to have been in the news because of theirs. You may as well get the yarn you like at the most convenient outlet.....unless of course you're going to research the political views of all the businesses you use and stop using all the ones that differ from yours.


Pretty much so. And the ones I don't know I can easily find out about. The only reason to shop at these places if you can afford to shop any place else is because they've driven all the locally owned same type stores OUT of business.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

cher45 said:


> This is what's crazy about this whole HL debacle. I and I alone decide my beliefs. A person telling me not to shop somewhere because of THEIR beliefs is not really the way it works.


Bingo! You have hit it right on the nailhead.


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## Jacquie (Feb 6, 2011)

Mrs.B -- There is one HL in Albany and soon to be one in the Eugene area in Gateway Mall
Evie RM -- Well said.
There are too many comments I would like to respond to. I look at this from a different angle. I do not believe the government has any right to demand what businesses offer their employees. In benefits or wages. If the person doesn't like what is being offered, go elsewhere, another town, if necessary. If a business is not offering what people are willing to accept, and therefore cannot hire employees, they will change their ways or go out of business. The government is entirely too invasive these days. 
Also -- Hobby Lobby is NOT forcing their religious beliefs on anyone. You can believe any way you want, they just don''t want to pay for your abortions. 
Another thing: the Constitution says 'freedom OF religion', not 'freedom FROM religion'. Big difference.


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## misellen (Mar 8, 2013)

Alta Grama said:


> This outlook is so tiresome. HL is simply refusing to pay for ONE TYPE of birth control. They are NOT refusing their employees the right to use that type of birth control if they so choose. They ARE paying for their employees to not procreate if that is their choice. If the employee chooses the easy way out and wants the morning after pill, HL has not taken those pills off the market the pills are still available to them. The option to use those medications is still there for the employee but sometimes individuals' choices come at a cost, as your choice to boycott them may come at a cost to you, be it inconvenience or monetary.
> 
> There is no forcing of a specific action involved in HL's stance. They are simply removing their financial support from something that is against their beliefs.
> 
> ...


Well said!


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## trout23 (Aug 28, 2012)

Jacquie said:


> Mrs.B -- There is one HL in Albany and soon to be one in the Eugene area in Gateway Mall
> Evie RM -- Well said.
> There are too many comments I would like to respond to. I look at this from a different angle. I do not believe the government has any right to demand what businesses offer their employees. In benefits or wages. If the person doesn't like what is being offered, go elsewhere, another town, if necessary. If a business is not offering what people are willing to accept, and therefore cannot hire employees, they will change their ways or go out of business. The government is entirely too invasive these days.
> Also -- Hobby Lobby is NOT forcing their religious beliefs on anyone. You can believe any way you want, they just don''t want to pay for your abortions.
> Another thing: the Constitution says 'freedom OF religion', not 'freedom FROM religion'. Big difference.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Alta Grama said:


> ... If you withhold an agreed-upon allowance from your child when you know it will go for illegal drugs, are you forcing your beliefs on him? He is still able to, and probably will, find his own funds for the drugs. Would you like to be told you must continue to give him the money because he has the right to choose his own beliefs?...


Personally, I can*not* equate a parent-child relationship to an employer-employee relationship. As a former (and long term) employee, such an attitude would (and did!) get my hackles up. Adults make their own choices - for better or worse.


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## Longtimer (May 23, 2013)

knovice knitter said:


> I have my own dilemma on this front. I received a gift card from Hobby Lobby over six months ago. I have not used it. If I did, I can argue I am not giving my money to them. If I don't use it, Hobby Lobby gets the full value of the card ($60) instead of just the mark up of the merchandize. I graciously accepted the card from the giver. It was payment for pet-sitting at two related households. One has a dog, so it meant many drives over there a day to tend to the pet. A payment of money would have been better, but they meant well and I appreciate that. I just don't know what to do about the gift card. The problem I have with Hobby Lobby is that they dragged their religious beliefs to the Supreme Court thus combining church and state which are supposed to be separate. They have imposed their beliefs on all Americans now. It is just a matter of time before the rolling snowball goes into effect. I don't like the idea that now corporations can pick and choose what to cover. Before the ACA, they could do that, but once the mandate came about, one would think that the laws apply to all. I would like to pick and choose where my tax dollars go for instance. It wouldn't be war or breaks to the very rich. The Supreme Court has now determined that corporations can have beliefs. Stuff like this scares me with its implications. I know my boycott will not make a difference just as my boycott of Walmart and Sam's has not made a difference. But if someone tells me "oh, you can get that at Walmart a lot cheaper" or something like that, I can tell them I don't shop there. The dialogue is now open and a discussion can happen or not. I always say that information is out there and to research it and decide accordingly. I have made my decisions about where my money goes, just not where the gift card goes.


There are places where you can sell gift cards. Look them up on line. Then you can have your money and your convictions. Better yet, share your decision with your friends and give the card back. They might make the same mistake again and would really feel badly to have offended you twice. It's a small world and people will eventually find out that they expected you to compromise your convictions.

Hobby Lobby is not imposing their beliefs on anyone. 
However, you are tryng to force your beliefs on Hobby Lobby. 
They are not willing to sacrifice their beliefs for any money from anyone.


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## trout23 (Aug 28, 2012)

I also think a lot of it is up to the employee. If you disagree - go work somewhere else. And, Yes, there is a shortage of employment out there - a job is a job is a job. If you don't like it leave and quit your complaining. I guess this is why we have 93 million unemployed right now and living on those who just shut up and work.


Jacquie said:


> Mrs.B -- There is one HL in Albany and soon to be one in the Eugene area in Gateway Mall
> Evie RM -- Well said.
> There are too many comments I would like to respond to. I look at this from a different angle. I do not believe the government has any right to demand what businesses offer their employees. In benefits or wages. If the person doesn't like what is being offered, go elsewhere, another town, if necessary. If a business is not offering what people are willing to accept, and therefore cannot hire employees, they will change their ways or go out of business. The government is entirely too invasive these days.
> Also -- Hobby Lobby is NOT forcing their religious beliefs on anyone. You can believe any way you want, they just don''t want to pay for your abortions.
> Another thing: the Constitution says 'freedom OF religion', not 'freedom FROM religion'. Big difference.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

tonyastewart said:


> Just my opinion for what it's worth I love hl yarn but I don't believe even as a christian it's my place to tell others how to live, you can lead them down a path but you can't make them hitch their star at the end of it. In the end those that are truly bothered by the hl policies (employees) will find other jobs, not that in this market it is easy, this is what makes america america, If they can live with their decisions then let the good lord sort it out if I am out of line I apologize


HL is not "telling" others how to live. You can live any way you want and still work at HL. How did you ever get the idea that they are telling others how to live? If my Christian faith teaches that abortions are wrong and I tell you that my faith says they are wrong. I am not telling you to believe as I do, I am only telling you that it is against my faith. That is what HL has done. They are following their own beliefs and not telling their employees that they have to believe the same thing. They just do not want to pay for something that is against their belief.


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## Linda333 (Feb 26, 2011)

LindaBridge said:


> Every individual has a right to his/her opinions but I do not feel it is right for anyone to insist on making another person follow the bosses religious dictates, especially a corporation.
> 
> All businesses are hiring employees to work, not to monitor their private lives. You might agree with the people who are doing this now, how would you feel if your employer decided you had to cover your hair or keep yourself completely covered because that was his religious belief?
> 
> ...


Instead of "hearing" about the law suite, look up the facts. Hobby Lobby is a family-run business and as such, they wanted to protect their own religious beliefs: they are against abortion. The Supreme Court agreed!

This is a landmark decision for religious freedom. The Supreme Court recognized that Americans do not lose their religious freedom when they run a family business,...

They are not denying birth control to their employees. They are denying their employees birth control that results in an abortion. Their employees can practice birth control.

If, for example, you would not wear tight short shorts and tight tee-shirts in public, you would not work for Hooters. If you want to practice birth control that results in an abortion, don't work for Hobby Lobby. Their religious beliefs have absolutely no effect on the consumer.

I also believe in your right to boycott Hobby Lobby if you choose; however, make sure you are making an informed decision.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> If it's not too far out of your way, I would suggest using onegrannygoose's tactic of stocking up on their coupons and making one-purchase-per-coupon of things you want. By _not_ buying anything else - at full price - you are depriving them of any profit. As a bonus, doing that will also get far more for your card than expected. I call this having your cake and eating it too!


Very clever indeed.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

Linda333 said:


> Instead of "hearing" about the law suite, look up the facts. Hobby Lobby is a family-run business and as such, they wanted to protect their own religious beliefs: they are against abortion. The Supreme Court agreed!
> 
> This is a landmark decision for religious freedom. The Supreme Court recognized that Americans do not lose their religious freedom when they run a family business,...
> 
> ...


  :-D


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> I actually bought some Noro at full price once, but _only_ because the shop owner refused to sell the pattern she'd designed for use with Noro! I never did use the bleeping yarn; this year I gave it to another knitter in our group. I made this with my leftover variegated yarns and that pattern she wouldn't sell alone: http://www.ravelry.com/projects/JessicaJean/mitred-copper-mountain-scarf


I bought some Noro on sale once, thank heaven only three skeins. It's the most bleeping yarn I've ever tried to handle. I gave it to another KPer who said she wanted it. I don't think I ever heard from her again.....


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## immunurse (May 2, 2011)

julie windham said:


> Not sure I'm understanding. Is it the policies of the store itself you object to or is it the conditions of the country from which the yarns are imported?


Good question! I think that the whole objection is based on an inaccurate picture painted by people with a political agenda. The first "problem" was that the company policy was that the stores were never open on Sundays, since the owners are devout Christians and also they feel that none of their employees should have to feel pressured to take rotations that included Sundays. So on that one day a week nobody has to work.

Keep in mind that every LYS I've ever heard of is closed on Sunday and Monday and nobody ever protested. If you own the store you get to decide when to open and when to be closed. No problem - this is called a free market economy. If the LYS loses too much business by doing that, they will have to change their policy or go out of business, but the government shouldn't be asked to step in and force them to open more often.

THEN when Obama care kicked in the mandate that every employer give their employees health insurance policies that included coverage for the full cost of birth control, plus the "morning after pill". (I'm not sure but it may also include elective abortions and surgical sterilization). Hobby Lobby's owners asked for an exemption based on infringement of their religious rights, since it would force them to pay for something they believed was morally wrong.

Now comes "The REST of the story". Before Obama care kicked in, no employer in the country was specifically required to offer health insurance that included birth control etc. So if an employer offered a cheaper policy that didn't include BCPs etc. the employee, in effect used the premium savings to pay for contraception. Hobby Lobby simply wanted to offer that kind of coverage.

Despite how certain people made it sound, NO ONE AT ANY TIME tried to deny access to birth control to ANYONE and they were not waging a "War On Women."

Currently no one has proposed a law that forces health insurance to fully cover the cost of condoms, so people with insurance still have to pay for their own condoms. Just b/c they aren't included in the coverage doesn't mean that men (or women) are being denied access to condoms or that there is a "War On Men."

BTW, Obamacare also forces my health insurance policy to include full coverage of these services in my policy despite the fact that I am 72 years old! This and a lot of other silly requirements is driving the cost of insurance way up.

I agree with HL and the Catholic institutions that offer health insurance to their employees have had their cases upheld in the courts. I have a Baptist friend who believes that it is against her religion to drink alcohol. I asked to to suppose that Obama care had gone a bit further and required health insurance to cover the cost of treatment for tension an anxiety for which the doctor "prescribed" a glass of wine every evening (to a non-Baptist)? Should the Baptist hospitals be forced to pay for coverage for that wine?

BTW, I have no argument with people who choose to boycott any store b/c they dislike their policies - especially if the really understand the issue and don't believe that HL, for instance is preventing their female employees from have access to BCPs. That is also one of great things about a free market economy.

OK, <deep breath> I'm off my soapbox. Thanks for "listening."


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

bobctwn65 said:


> well you all keep boycotting more for me...I love their yarn and buy lots of it...


I'm so willing to let you have every bit of it.....


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

flamingo said:


> Hobby lobby is not breaking any laws and they do offer several types of birth control to their employees, just not morning after pills. This fact is conveniently left out.


Um, but they had to go to the US Supreme Court to get the laws interpreted in their favor, didn't they? A fact you are conveniently leaving out.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

JMBeals said:


> Well said! Wish we had a HL in this area.
> 
> :thumbup: :thumbup:


I'd send you the one in my area if I was as wealthy as the Green family. Unfortunately, I can't afford to send my personal beliefs to the US Supreme Court to have them made into the laws of the land.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Gweneth 1946 said:


> If by your not shopping at that shop, because of their policies, will change anything then don't shop there. But why punish yourself for something that will probably never change ,unless they sell to someone else. Buy what you like and boogie on out. You know what you like and what they have to give and what you can afford. Buying on line is fine if what you get is to your liking, but you won't know till you get it. Then if it is not what you wanted you are stuck with either returning it or having to use it. :?


I have never felt like not giving myself everything I want is self-punishment, but apparently there are those who do.


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## laceandbits (Jun 23, 2011)

My mother used to use the expression "don't cut off your nose to spite your face", and that's what you'd be doing not to buy the yarn you prefer. 

As I understand it many Americans have been boycotting this business and it's not made them change their policy over something which they feel equally strongly about, even if we disagree with their view. They now have the courts on their side. 

But if the boycott works and they go out of business, how will that help their employees? You going without your yarn is not going to make a scrap of difference to the situation except to keep people employed, even if one aspect of their health care is substandard.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Answer to your question: zero. If they dare to press charges, they are the ones villainized and blamed. When such things are made public, have you noticed any empty box seats? Any rows and rows of vacant seats? Not on any shots I've seen on TV. :thumbdown:


And more is the shame.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> Um, but they had to go to the US Supreme Court to get the laws interpreted in their favor, didn't they? A fact you are conveniently leaving out.


And your point is?????? Why shouldn't they go to the US Supreme Court to have their religious convictions upheld? For instance, where I live we have water supplied by a water company that does not put fluoride in our water and no chlorine either. Several years ago, our county health department put out a mandate that all water companies who serviced over 5,000 people had to put fluoride in their water. Boy, did that open a can of worms. Their reasoning was that fluoride in the water prevents dental caries. It is not fluoride in the water that prevents dental caries, it is the topical treatment of teeth that helps prevent it. Fluoride is a poison. It does not flush out of a persons body but it has accumulative effects that are bad. The water companies took this to our state supreme court and we won. We do not have fluoride in our water. In 2011 the best water from 38 states was tested in Washington DC for taste. The water from my water company was the water that went to Washington DC and was voted the best in the nation. The best tasting water with no fluoride and no chlorine. Good for Hobby Lobby to stand by their conviction in taking this to the Supreme Court. It was their right to do so.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> Yikes. I wouldn't want to walk into a dark house that's not been locked. I have duplicate keys for everyone I sit for or a pass code. I am sitting for a rooster and two cats this weekend and the owner gives me an extra garage door opener. I always take in the mail and shovel in the winter so if anyone is watching the house, it appears the owners are home.


The door in question is a large slider on a deck in the (currently dark) deck, so there is no key. Yikes, indeed! I'm amazed at how many really wealthy people can't afford to replace burned out lights.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Evie RM said:


> That is what HL is doing. Standing up for their beliefs and religious convictions. Good for them. I applaud them. They are also closed on Sunday per their religious faith.


HL is entirely within their rights to stand up for their personal beliefs and religious convictions, right up to the point where they try to make it the law of the land. Bad of them. I do not applaud anyone who takes advantage of their wealth to do such things.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

NCNeedler said:


> Do you know the political views of all the businesses you patronize? I would venture to say that all of us probably spend money every day in businesses that have a different set of beliefs than we do.....Hobby Lobby just happens to have been in the news because of theirs. You may as well get the yarn you like at the most convenient outlet.....unless of course you're going to research the political views of all the businesses you use and stop using all the ones that differ from yours.


The religious/political views of businesses should be none of anyone else's business and kept private, not taken to the US Supreme Court. THAT'S why they're in the news; they have used their extreme wealth to go to the highest court in our land and change laws to suit their personal views.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> HL is entirely within their rights to stand up for their personal beliefs and religious convictions, right up to the point where they try to make it the law of the land. Bad of them. I do not applaud anyone who takes advantage of their wealth to do such things.


I do when they have taken advantage of their wealth to keep the law from preventing their religious freedom. It is their right to believe the way they do, just as it is your right to believe the way you do. I do not believe in abortion, so if you want an abortion, why should I pay for yours. You can pay for it yourself. If you want someone else to pay for it then go there, just don't ask me to go against my religion that says the killing of a baby is wrong.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

cher45 said:


> I also think a lot of it is up to the employee. If you disagree - go work somewhere else. And, Yes, there is a shortage of employment out there - a job is a job is a job. If you don't like it leave and quit your complaining. I guess this is why we have 93 million unemployed right now and living on those who just shut up and work.


I'm sure your children will not mind going hungry for awhile during your new job search.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Evie RM said:


> HL is not "telling" others how to live. You can live any way you want and still work at HL. How did you ever get the idea that they are telling others how to live? If my Christian faith teaches that abortions are wrong and I tell you that my faith says they are wrong. I am not telling you to believe as I do, I am only telling you that it is against my faith. That is what HL has done. They are following their own beliefs and not telling their employees that they have to believe the same thing. They just do not want to pay for something that is against their belief.


Obviously you are overlooking the part about the fact that they are dragging their personal convictions into the public school system in Oklahoma to be taught first as an elective but with the goal of making it required curriculum. How do you justify that? If that's their desire, why don't they set up their own private school system and leave the taxpayers and people of others beliefs alone?


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## LindaBridge (Aug 9, 2014)

As far as I know I have never been penalized by my employer. However, I am sensitive to "women's rights" and this sure is a big part of it.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Linda333 said:


> Instead of "hearing" about the law suite, look up the facts. Hobby Lobby is a family-run business and as such, they wanted to protect their own religious beliefs: they are against abortion. The Supreme Court agreed!
> 
> This is a landmark decision for religious freedom. The Supreme Court recognized that Americans do not lose their religious freedom when they run a family business,...
> 
> ...


But I'm losing my rights to have freedom from their religious beliefs. Oh, I forgot, that doesn't enter into it somehow...it's all about their freedoms.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Evie RM said:


> And your point is?????? Why shouldn't they go to the US Supreme Court to have their religious convictions upheld? For instance, where I live we have water supplied by a water company that does not put fluoride in our water and no chlorine either. Several years ago, our county health department put out a mandate that all water companies who serviced over 5,000 people had to put fluoride in their water. Boy, did that open a can of worms. Their reasoning was that fluoride in the water prevents dental caries. It is not fluoride in the water that prevents dental caries, it is the topical treatment of teeth that helps prevent it. Fluoride is a poison. It does not flush out of a persons body but it has accumulative effects that are bad. The water companies took this to our state supreme court and we won. We do not have fluoride in our water. In 2011 the best water from 38 states was tested in Washington DC for taste. The water from my water company was the water that went to Washington DC and was voted the best in the nation. The best tasting water with no fluoride and no chlorine. Good for Hobby Lobby to stand by their conviction in taking this to the Supreme Court. It was their right to do so.


In my experience, you wouldn't recognize any fact contrary to your beliefs. I'm glad your water tastes good and never mind your dental bills.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

At a November Mustang school board meeting, Green told the crowd the Bible elective being crafted by Green Scholars Initiative would be nonsectarian and focused primarily on the history and impact of the Bible in its many forms.

This is not about a denomination, or a religion, its about a book, Green said.

McDaniel told the Christian Post that an experienced schoolteacher from the district was lined up to teach the course, and "the curriculum has been through a rigorous review to check for bias and ensure the content is neutral."

The above is a factual quotation. It is not a requirement. I took an elective course in college called "Great Religions of the World." It started with primitive man and went through all the Greek and Roman religions and Shintoism and Buddaism right up to current day religions. It was a fascinating course and I really learned a lot. What is wrong with learning about why a person believes the way they do? And, it is a choice and not a requirement.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> In my experience, you wouldn't recognize any fact contrary to your beliefs. I'm glad your water tastes good and never mind your dental bills.


My dental bills are great. I am almost 72 and still have my own teeth. I do recognize facts. I do a lot of research to get the facts. In the case of the fluoride, I researched anything I could find on it. It is a biproduct of fertilizer. It is a poison and something that I definitely do not want in my drinking water. They have to wear biohazard suits when they add it to the water supplies. Look at the warning label on your fluoride toothpaste that says "If more than a pea size drop is accidentally swallowed, get medical help or contact a Poison Control Center right away." I do research on lots and lots of things before I form my opinions. You do not have to agree with my opinion and that is your choice. Maybe it is you who would not recognize any fact contrary to your beliefs.


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## immunurse (May 2, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> HL is entirely within their rights to stand up for their personal beliefs and religious convictions, right up to the point where they try to make it the law of the land. Bad of them. I do not applaud anyone who takes advantage of their wealth to do such things.


They have NOT made their beliefs the law of the land. The "abortion inducing" pills are STILL legal and easily obtainable to every woman in the country. They have not gotten a law passed that forces anyone to adopt their religion. The supreme court's ruling has said that the relevant terms of the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) was actually in violation of the Constitution Of the United States. It was the Democrats in the Senate who were infringing on the religious liberty of the HL owners.


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## Alta Grama (Apr 16, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> Obviously you are overlooking the part about the fact that they are dragging their personal convictions into the public school system in Oklahoma to be taught first as an elective but with the goal of making it required curriculum. How do you justify that? If that's their desire, why don't they set up their own private school system and leave the taxpayers and people of others beliefs alone?


I believe, at one time, your country, as well as mine, was created by people with these same basic beliefs. Certainly better than all the politically correct regulations where anything goes if you are a vocal minority supposedly being offended by the American way of life. For example, the Texan who cannot fly the American flag from his balcony because it offends someone, or the restaurant who took down their sign advertising some kind of bacon meal because it offended a non-pork eater or the thousands of other ridiculous situations where individuals are forcing their rights on others. Without those defending our heritage and standing up for the values it was built on, our countries will soon be so busy giving in to every idiot who insists the world changes to suit them, we won't have any values left. Who ever thought flying the stars & stripes would be disallowed in America because it insults someone?

These are some of the things we should be livid about, not a business who withholds payment for something they don't believe in.

Sorry, this topic is touching a nerve with me. I'm not trying to make enemies or deny anyone their right to their beliefs. I just feel HL's actions are being misinterpreted as harsher than they are in reality.


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## flamingo (Jun 23, 2013)

Exactly! Birth control is preventative health care are there are nearly NO insurance companies in the US that cover preventative health care, yet hl does allow for that, just not morning after.


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## immunurse (May 2, 2011)

Linda333 said:


> Instead of "hearing" about the law suite, look up the facts. Hobby Lobby is a family-run business and as such, they wanted to protect their own religious beliefs: they are against abortion. The Supreme Court agreed!
> 
> This is a landmark decision for religious freedom. The Supreme Court recognized that Americans do not lose their religious freedom when they run a family business,...
> 
> ...


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## Alta Grama (Apr 16, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> The religious/political views of businesses should be none of anyone else's business and kept private, not taken to the US Supreme Court. THAT'S why they're in the news; they have used their extreme wealth to go to the highest court in our land and change laws to suit their personal views.


I would suggest that most of our laws have been the result of the work and influence of the wealthy so we probably have them to thank for many of the rights we do have. In any case, HL didn't actually change the law, the Supreme Court did. Is this an elected group in the US or appointed by those who are elected? Hmmmm.


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## Bgezfan (Apr 2, 2013)

I wholeheartedly agree!


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> But I'm losing my rights to have freedom from their religious beliefs. Oh, I forgot, that doesn't enter into it somehow...it's all about their freedoms.


No, it is about their right to follow their own religious convictions. You are not losing your rights to have freedom from their religious beliefs. You can choose whatever religion you want. You can choose to get an abortion. Just not to have Hobby Lobby pay for it.


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## Linda333 (Feb 26, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> But I'm losing my rights to have freedom from their religious beliefs. Oh, I forgot, that doesn't enter into it somehow...it's all about their freedoms.


Please help me understand what rights you believe you have lost? Are you employed at Hobby Lobby?


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## CCNana (Mar 22, 2013)

Gerripho said:


> Ethics? Is it ethical to force someone to go against their deeply held beliefs before allowing them to run a business? Of the 20 FDA approved birth control pills, the owners had no objections to 16 of them. They believe the other 4 to cause abortions after conception and do not want to pay for those 4. They do not discriminate against anyone who is pro abortion in their hiring practices, nor would they terminate anyone's employment over a differing opinion or belief. In all ways they are very tolerant of people who believe in abortion. It's a shame they can't receive the same level of tolerance from others. Instead, they are mocked, called unethical, boycotted, and expected to not only permit their employees to abort babies, which they do, but to pay for it as well. So much for freedom and liberty. More to the point -- so much for being tolerant.
> 
> If you like the yarn, then don't bite off your nose to spite your face.


I am in agreement with this.
I happen to love their yarn. And it is their yarn. You cannot buy the same brand in another store.
Their employees choose to work there.
We are not forced to shop there.


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## leftturnonly9825 (Aug 5, 2013)

I am one who finds political considerations and HR policies of supreme importance.

So, what I'd like to suggest is your local yarn store got the yarn you like from somewhere. Could you find it as cheaply, or almost as cheaply, on the internet?

If not, I'd say go ahead and buy the yarn. Your purchase, or lack of it, is not going to seriously impact them. After all, we buy all manner of things from many disgusting companies and we have no control over their policies. (I put Apple in that list but buy Apple products. My boycott of Apple is going to have very little effect on them.)

Am I a minority of one?


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## Marvelouz (Oct 21, 2013)

cathy73 said:


> HL stores are being vilified because they do not wish to pay for abortions? They provide insurance that offers multiple forms of birth control. If a person chooses to abort their baby why should their employer pay for it? What ever happened to having principles and trying to live by them? There are many people and businesses who have opinions I disagree with but I see no reason to try to keep them from having their own opinions.


Well said. I really don't understand why it is that freedom of belief (or speech, or practice) only seems to apply if the belief agrees with one's own. Let the "other" side state it's belief and we go ballistic! This applies equally to the ultra liberal and the ultra conservative. Most people I know are somewhere in the middle and may disagree but do not try to crucify those who do not agree with them. What has happened to the principal of tolerance?


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## JoanAbrams (Jan 19, 2014)

If you feel that some store doesn't meet your standards for ethical reasons by all means boycott.It doesn't matter if you make a difference or not. You have only your conscience to answer to. At the end of the day,YOU are the only one you have to answer to. And don't ever believe that one person can't make a difference. All great movements in world history started with one person.


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## Marvelouz (Oct 21, 2013)

knovice knitter said:


> The problem I have with Hobby Lobby is that they dragged their religious beliefs to the Supreme Court thus combining church and state which are supposed to be separate.


But if church and state are supposed to be separate, why should they be forced to go against their religious beliefs by the laws? It can't be both ways.


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## Revan (Jun 29, 2011)

I think I know the store you are talking about. If you buy yarn there you are supporting what you don't agree with. So, in the end, it is your choice. Yarn is yarn and people are people.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Alta Grama said:


> I believe, at one time, your country, as well as mine, was created by people with these same basic beliefs. Certainly better than all the politically correct regulations where anything goes if you are a vocal minority supposedly being offended by the American way of life. For example, the Texan who cannot fly the American flag from his balcony because it offends someone, or the restaurant who took down their sign advertising some kind of bacon meal because it offended a non-pork eater or the thousands of other ridiculous situations where individuals are forcing their rights on others. Without those defending our heritage and standing up for the values it was built on, our countries will soon be so busy giving in to every idiot who insists the world changes to suit them, we won't have any values left. Who ever thought flying the stars & stripes would be disallowed in America because it insults someone?
> 
> These are some of the things we should be livid about, not a business who withholds payment for something they don't believe in.
> 
> Sorry, this topic is touching a nerve with me. I'm not trying to make enemies or deny anyone their right to their beliefs. I just feel HL's actions are being misinterpreted as harsher than they are in reality.


This is one of the biggest myths around. If you do a little research on each of the writers of the US Constitution, you will find that most of them were not at all religious and much more concerned about keeping separation of church and state for fear the church would take over as did The Church of England back in those times.

As far as "The American Way of Life," is concerned, it isn't anything like it was even 20 years ago in many major areas, so I really don't know what that means anymore. We appear to be locked in a power battle between the majority and the wealthy, and that certainly wasn't the case until relatively recently. Which would you say represents what you refer to as the American way of life. For some it's living on the streets. For others it's owning multiple mansions. And for yet others, it's everything and everything in between, to the point that for me, that phrase has become pretty meaningless. I have to ask, whose American way of life? I could cite a number of extreme but unique examples as well, but I'm more concerned about the big picture here and now, as well as the huge differences in where various government officials want to lead us. For instance, to me, HL is one of those idiots insisting that the world change to suit them, a single family in this country. Do you see nothing alarming about that? They have a dream and a big picture of this entire nation becoming like them. Yikes, whatever happened to freedom of anything?


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Linda333 said:


> Please help me understand what rights you believe you have lost? Are you employed at Hobby Lobby?


When a single family comes up with a plan to place their religious beliefs in a PUBLIC school system, even as an elective, and teaches only one version of religion, theirs, does that not sound an alarm with anyone? I'm 76, abortion really isn't on my plate and I'm self-employed. However, the idea of teaching any version of any religion in a public system for any reason should concern everyone. Read about that sort of thing in history books throughout time and see how it worked out. The right of separation of church and state as guaranteed by the Constitution will have been violated by this for everyone, not just for me personally. I won't live to see it, thank goodness, but the rest of the country will be in deep trouble over it. Hobby Lobby has no intention of stopping with what they have accomplished thus far. The Green family has huge ideas for this country, and this is only the beginning.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Marvelouz said:


> Well said. I really don't understand why it is that freedom of belief (or speech, or practice) only seems to apply if the belief agrees with one's own. Let the "other" side state it's belief and we go ballistic! This applies equally to the ultra liberal and the ultra conservative. Most people I know are somewhere in the middle and may disagree but do not try to crucify those who do not agree with them.  What has happened to the principal of tolerance?


The only problem with what you are saying is that you aren't looking beyond Hobby Lobby per se into what the ultimate intentions are regarding making their personal religious beliefs part of the public school systems of this country, and yes, they're starting small so as not to alarm or draw attention until it's too late. Please don't take my word for it. Do your own research as to what is going on in Oklahoma. In the beginning, most world leaders who took over a country were tolerated in the beginning. Barack Obama has done far less than the Greens are wanting to do and there are those who accuse him of being a dictator; he got legally elected; the Greens have not been and their plan is not being voted upon, it's just being insidiously instituted a little at a time. I notice most of the posters on this thread seem not to know what I'm talking about, how can that be?


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Evie RM said:


> No, it is about their right to follow their own religious convictions. You are not losing your rights to have freedom from their religious beliefs. You can choose whatever religion you want. You can choose to get an abortion. Just not to have Hobby Lobby pay for it.


Do your research on their plan to institute their personal religious beliefs as the only religion taught in PUBLIC schools. If they want to start their own private school system and give it a whirl, fine, but that wouldn't convert the whole country, would it? The abortion issue is providing a smoke screen, in my opinion, as to what the Greens really want to do.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

immunurse said:


> They have NOT made their beliefs the law of the land. The "abortion inducing" pills are STILL legal and easily obtainable to every woman in the country. They have not gotten a law passed that forces anyone to adopt their religion. The supreme court's ruling has said that the relevant terms of the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) was actually in violation of the Constitution Of the United States. It was the Democrats in the Senate who were infringing on the religious liberty of the HL owners.


No, not yet, but they're working on it; I'm not talking about the birth control issues, I'm talking about the religious issues. They don't need to have a law passed when the governing body of a public school is willingly allowing them to write a religious curriculum for their student body, starting with an elective class, not on world religion(s), but on their own personal beliefs. They want to "save the country." The plan is to eventually make this class required for all students in all high schools in the entire country. They initially said it would be put before the local school board for a vote, but oops, that didn't happen. It has been approved without even reading what the curriculum will be because it is continually "being revised." Parents are upset, the school board isn't happy, but the principal and superintendent have been "convinced" that it is the way to go. Does that sound like logical reasoning to you in view of separation of church and state, or are the Greens about to take that to the Supreme Court down the road, too?


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Evie RM said:


> At a November Mustang school board meeting, Green told the crowd the Bible elective being crafted by Green Scholars Initiative would be nonsectarian and focused primarily on the history and impact of the Bible in its many forms.
> 
> This is not about a denomination, or a religion, its about a book, Green said.
> 
> ...


There is nothing wrong with taking a course on the religions of the world. This one, however, will be covering Christianity according to the Green family, and that's a whole different story. I know what people are being told, but they aren't being told the entire plan. It will be introduced as you said, but the plan is not to leave it that way, only to get people accustomed to the idea before slowly moving forward with it. I give up at this point because there are none so blind, etc., etc. Save this thread and reread it in a decade or so.


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## Judy M (Feb 17, 2011)

Just do what your heart and pocketbook tell you to do, and accept it. No guilt feelings either way.


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## Norma (Jan 27, 2011)

Amen and well said. Too many people believe freedoms only apply to them.


Gerripho said:


> Ethics? Is it ethical to force someone to go against their deeply held beliefs before allowing them to run a business? Of the 20 FDA approved birth control pills, the owners had no objections to 16 of them. They believe the other 4 to cause abortions after conception and do not want to pay for those 4. They do not discriminate against anyone who is pro abortion in their hiring practices, nor would they terminate anyone's employment over a differing opinion or belief. In all ways they are very tolerant of people who believe in abortion. It's a shame they can't receive the same level of tolerance from others. Instead, they are mocked, called unethical, boycotted, and expected to not only permit their employees to abort babies, which they do, but to pay for it as well. So much for freedom and liberty. More to the point -- so much for being tolerant.
> 
> If you like the yarn, then don't bite off your nose to spite your face.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

I think we are both missing each others' point here. What do you mean I am forcing my beliefs on Hobby Lobby?I am not sure you understand what my beliefs are. It is the big picture I am concerned with. The idea that a corporation can have a belief doesn't sit with me. It is the owners who have the belief. The owners are entitled to their beliefs and to live their lives accordingly. They can close on Sundays and play all the Christian music they want. It is not against the mandate. Picking and choosing what to include in a mandated provision is unlawful. So they didn't like it and made enough noise for the lopsided Supreme Court to hear them out. They rushed it through rather quickly too. The program had not even been in effect for six months yet and they got it all changed. What is next? Slippery slope is a cliche, but no other way to call it.

Returning my gift card to my friends would be hurtful, so I will not do it. You are wrong in suggesting they offended me by giving it to me. But I would certainly offend them by returning it to them. There is no risk of it happening again. I just pet sat for them two weeks ago for a week while they vacationed in NYC and Boston. They never even called me to let me know they were home, much less thanked me. They have lived next door to me for 12 years. I have watched over their pets more times than I can count with nothing but an occasional verbal thank you when I would see them in their yard. I think the gift card was given to me by the suggestion of their mother who has the dog and lives across town.

Thank you for the suggestion of selling the card. I must ponder that a while. It would be sending someone to the store that I would rather people not support. I will either let the card rot or do as Jessica Jean suggested and use it sporadically with hefty coupons.


Longtimer said:


> There are places where you can sell gift cards. Look them up on line. Then you can have your money and your convictions. Better yet, share your decision with your friends and give the card back. They might make the same mistake again and would really feel badly to have offended you twice. It's a small world and people will eventually find out that they expected you to compromise your convictions.
> 
> Hobby Lobby is not imposing their beliefs on anyone.
> However, you are tryng to force your beliefs on Hobby Lobby.
> They are not willing to sacrifice their beliefs for any money from anyone.


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## JMBeals (Nov 27, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> I'd send you the one in my area if I was as wealthy as the Green family. Unfortunately, I can't afford to send my personal beliefs to the US Supreme Court to have them made into the laws of the land.


For which I'm most grateful.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Evie RM said:


> ... I took an elective course in college called "Great Religions of the World." It started with primitive man and went through all the Greek and Roman religions and Shintoism and Buddaism right up to current day religions. It was a fascinating course and I really learned a lot. *What is wrong with learning about why a person believes the way they do?* ...


Evidently, every school board on the planet believes it's not a good idea to teach youngsters comparative religions. I have yet to hear of it offered to any students in a public school system below college level. As a questioning child (Is there any other kind?) attending a private Roman Catholic school from age 4 through age 13, I was given grief by the dear nuns for having taken out library books that _did_ talk about other religious belief systems. The teachers/brainwashers of the young do *not* want their charges to learn that believers of other flavours are equally human as themselves. The *do* want the kids to dislike/fear the 'other', and they work hard to inculcate their beliefs on the children in their care.

If I had my choice, every child would be taught in school about EVERY belief system and that their practitioners are NOT to be feared. But that might lead to a state of peace, and _that_ would not be as profitable for big business, would it?


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## Angela2260 (Sep 7, 2014)

I am very sorry to bring up a different perspective on this issue which has been discussed previously. I was unable to have a child and I enjoy looking at your children and beautiful grandchildren and the joy they give you. I believe every child is a miracle and if you ever considered the anatomy of our body, it truly is a miracle.
I believe in the Bible and feel if we all took the Ten Commandments seriously we could live in peace with ourselves and our fellow humans. 
Among the Commandments are two that our present society has ignored, (1) Thou shall not kill and (2) Thou shall not commit adultery. No one should be condemned and ridiculed if this is their strong belief. I believe in freedom of choice and if two people engage in activity that can produce the miracle of a human being this is their choice. I do not see why others should pay for the result of a specific activity which is not a medical issue at the onset. No one seems to care about that innocent baby, possibly someone's grandchild. Some of us and HL would not want that on our conscience.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> I bought some Noro on sale once, thank heaven only three skeins. It's the most bleeping yarn I've ever tried to handle. I gave it to another KPer who said she wanted it. I don't think I ever heard from her again.....


The knitter I gave mine to made a lovely _looking_ shawl from it. I was just tickled pink to get it out of _my_ stash! 



SAMkewel said:


> The door in question is a large slider on a deck in the (currently dark) deck, so* there is no key*. Yikes, indeed! I'm amazed at how many really wealthy people can't afford to replace burned out lights.


I've never lived in a home with a deck or a sliding door, but I've looked at those doors in the hardware stores. All the ones I've seen have a keyed lock. To have any door that is incapable of locking and opening from both in and outside is just crazy!


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

My fear exactly and most here think it is about a pill.


SAMkewel said:


> When a single family comes up with a plan to place their religious beliefs in a PUBLIC school system, even as an elective, and teaches only one version of religion, theirs, does that not sound an alarm with anyone? I'm 76, abortion really isn't on my plate and I'm self-employed. However, the idea of teaching any version of any religion in a public system for any reason should concern everyone. Read about that sort of thing in history books throughout time and see how it worked out. The right of separation of church and state as guaranteed by the Constitution will have been violated by this for everyone, not just for me personally. I won't live to see it, thank goodness, but the rest of the country will be in deep trouble over it. Hobby Lobby has no intention of stopping with what they have accomplished thus far. The Green family has huge ideas for this country, and this is only the beginning.


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## laceandbits (Jun 23, 2011)

is a poison and something that I definitely do not want in my drinking water. They have to wear biohazard suits when they add it to the water supplies. Look at the warning label on your fluoride toothpaste that says "If more than a pea size drop is accidentally swallowed said:


> They wear biohazard suits because they are working with intensely concentrated solutions. Same in all chemical work situations.
> 
> We don't have that dramatic warning on our toothpaste here in the UK, just don't swallow (but why would you want to, yuk) even on my extra strong fluoride toothpaste recommended by my dentist as I have weak teeth. And now we are told not too rinse or drink for half an hour to give the fluoride maximum effect on our teeth.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

JohnnyB said:


> I have a limited yarn budget and usually buy from the box stores unless I get yarn $ for Christmas which I would spend at my LYS. One store I frequent has, IMHO, the softest acrylic worsted in a wide palate of colors. However, I don't agree with the politics nor the HR restrictions they espouse. What to do? Boycott the place and buy yarn I don't like as much elsewhere, or buy what I want and then feel guilty ? Seems like a no win situation to me. Anyone else out there in the same boat ? What would you do ? TIA. :shock:


I have the same dilemma & in general boycott all businesses that have practices I don't agree with, with the exception of where I buy my yarn. I love a particular yarn that they sell & prefer it above all others like it, but, IMHO is not comparable to it. I did boycott the store, but, just wasn't satisfied with other products, so I grit my teeth & patronize the store, BUT, only for this yarn. I don't feel guilty about because the items I make with the yarn are pleasurable for me to make & well appreciated by the recipients. I do not buy anything else in this store even tho they have a wide & varied inventory.


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## Rita in Raleigh (Aug 20, 2011)

If you don't agree with the politics nor the HR restrictions of the store, why did you go into the store? Why even look at the yarn (and find it soft and of a good price, etc.) if you feel so strongly about their politics?
Why "frequent" a store you so abhor?

If it doesn't bother you to tempt yourself with the yarn, then buy the yarn you like!



JohnnyB said:


> I have a limited yarn budget and usually buy from the box stores unless I get yarn $ for Christmas which I would spend at my LYS. One store I frequent has, IMHO, the softest acrylic worsted in a wide palate of colors. However, I don't agree with the politics nor the HR restrictions they espouse. What to do? Boycott the place and buy yarn I don't like as much elsewhere, or buy what I want and then feel guilty ? Seems like a no win situation to me. Anyone else out there in the same boat ? What would you do ? TIA. :shock:


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## bobctwn65 (Jul 27, 2012)

God's laws are higher than any human governments...I will obey him..and he says abortion is murder..


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## Marindy (Oct 12, 2011)

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Direct quote from The Bill of Rights

"Prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is key here. The ACA clearly violates HL's right to practice their religion. And they may petition the government for redress of grievances as HL did when the case went to the Supreme Court. Some of us believe, as did the founding fathers, that freedom of religion is a God-given right.


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## ElyseKnox (Sep 16, 2011)

Alta Grama said:


> This outlook is so tiresome. HL is simply refusing to pay for ONE TYPE of birth control. They are NOT refusing their employees the right to use that type of birth control if they so choose. They ARE paying for their employees to not procreate if that is their choice. If the employee chooses the easy way out and wants the morning after pill, HL has not taken those pills off the market the pills are still available to them. The option to use those medications is still there for the employee but sometimes individuals' choices come at a cost, as your choice to boycott them may come at a cost to you, be it inconvenience or monetary.
> 
> There is no forcing of a specific action involved in HL's stance. They are simply removing their financial support from something that is against their beliefs.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## ElyseKnox (Sep 16, 2011)

bobctwn65 said:


> God's laws are higher than any human governments...I will obey him..and he says abortion is murder..


 :thumbup:


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## mjo (Jul 21, 2012)

bobctwn65 said:


> God's laws are higher than any human governments...I will obey him..and he says abortion is murder..


I agree with you that abortion is a horrible thing and very traumatic however if we want to prevent it we have to make sure that we have choices. and that means better sex education and easily available birth control. with better education and across the board health care men and women would be able to decide when the best time for them to have children would be. 
I find myself wondering if this company ban on certain medicines include something like the erection medications you see on TV or if they feel that is ok. 
I also wonder where the line is drawn - can a corporation decide that they won't pay for blood transfusions because that is against their believes. or would a Christian Scientist be allowed to deny medical treatments to their employees because they don't believe in medical interventions.
but this is a free country and I can have my values and beliefs and my neighbors and friends can have theirs. I won't pass judgement on someone else for their beliefs as long as they don't hurt another. but I can shop and use products that are made by companies that have policies I like. I feel lucky to live in a country that I have many choices and freedoms. I also feel fortunate that my husband had a good job and was represented by a union that fought for pension and insurance. I never had to worry about doctor visits or prescriptions for my family. I have choices about what my medical care is and am not limited by what someone else believes is the right treatment. the costs for my insurance was paid for by both the employer and him negotiated by contract and paid for in labor - there was no free ride. I do wish that somehow we could find a way to give good quality health care to everyone across the board.


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## past (Apr 3, 2011)

WE all have to pick and choose and make our own decisions. If we really researched the practices, financial contributions, and politics of every business we would probably find that there is no place on earth that we could shop where somewhere in their business or personal practices meets up 100% with each of our individual ethics and beliefs.


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## Knittin' in Georgia (Jun 27, 2013)

Marindy said:


> Amendment I
> 
> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
> 
> ...


Also, please notice that the amendment says freedom "of" religion, NOT freedom "from" religion. Many Americans do not understand this, and believe they have the right to ban all religion, like those who want to remove the freedom of Christians to wish someone a Merry Christmas. This and other acts, like removing Christian crosses, is a direct disregard of the constitutionally-given freedom of Americans to express their religious beliefs. Sadly, the majority of such acts are currently aimed at Christian beliefs primarily.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

mjo said:


> ...I find myself wondering if this company ban on certain medicines include something like the erection medications you see on TV or if they feel that is ok. ...


That's a very good question! I'm betting they're OK, just as I'm betting most of that family-owned-and-run business's leaders are male.

The point that many on this topic seem to miss is that HL is NOT a public corporation such as A.T.&T. It can do as the family wishes simply _because_ it's privately and family owned. Let them begin to trade shares on the stock exchange and this whole debate becomes moot, as does the Supreme Court's decision.

As to the statement that most actions perceived as being against a religious group are against Christians of one flavour or another .... Are you _sure_ about that? 
When was the last time a complete stranger walked up to you and grabbed the cross hung at your neck and yanked it off? Never? Probably.
When was the last time a complete stranger walked up to a Muslim woman/girl and yanked her head-scarf off? Or tried the same thing with a Sikh man/boy's turban? Ten minutes ago? Probably. 
Such misbehaviour is outrageous! Yet is hasn't stopped since the first group of non-English immigrants landed on our shores.

I know nothing of Sikhism.
I am married to a (non-practicing) Muslim though, and he has informed me that nowhere in Islam is it stated that women must cover their heads or faces. *That* practice pre-dates Islam! It has hung on in certain cultural areas _even_ among families who long ago converted to Christianity. Among my sisters-in-law, one of them never covered her head before 9/11. Even though her only direct contact with an American was with me when I visited, she took to wearing a head-scarf outside of her own home thereafter. She also dropped her hemline from knee-high to the ground. It's called backlash.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Evidently, every school board on the planet believes it's not a good idea to teach youngsters comparative religions. I have yet to hear of it offered to any students in a public school system below college level. As a questioning child (Is there any other kind?) attending a private Roman Catholic school from age 4 through age 13, I was given grief by the dear nuns for having taken out library books that _did_ talk about other religious belief systems. The teachers/brainwashers of the young do *not* want their charges to learn that believers of other flavours are equally human as themselves. The *do* want the kids to dislike/fear the 'other', and they work hard to inculcate their beliefs on the children in their care.
> 
> If I had my choice, every child would be taught in school about EVERY belief system and that their practitioners are NOT to be feared. But that might lead to a state of peace, and _that_ would not be as profitable for big business, would it?


It isn't nearly as profitable, money-wise, as war, either. What a skewed, bigoted world we live in, eh? As a protestant child growing up in a Catholic community, I picked my friends from the Catholic group in spite of all my parents' and church's dire warnings because they weren't as exclusive and obviously bigoted as my protestant family/acquaintances/church. Since they attended Catholic school until they joined us in public high school, I really don't know what the nuns taught them, but they were certainly nicer people across the board than the other groups.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> I've never lived in a home with a deck or a sliding door, but I've looked at those doors in the hardware stores. All the ones I've seen have a keyed lock. To have any door that is incapable of locking and opening from both in and outside is just crazy!


Wow, maybe the newer ones do have locks! The old ones lock from the inside only. I haven't looked at any in years since we don't have a deck, either, and I no longer have other folks to shop for. I'll have to check it out :~). DH just said he's never seen one with a keyed lock either. We must be living in the past somehow.....


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> That's a very good question! I'm betting they're OK, just as I'm betting most of that family-owned-and-run business's leaders are male.
> 
> The point that many on this topic seem to miss is that HL is NOT a public corporation such as A.T.&T. It can do as the family wishes simply _because_ it's privately and family owned. Let them begin to trade shares on the stock exchange and this whole debate becomes moot, as does the Supreme Court's decision.
> 
> ...


Now I'm confused. If HL had the ability to do what they've done simply because they aren't a public corporation, why the whole fiasco with the Supreme Court in the first place?

You're right about the Greens being male dominated. I grew up in a totally male dominated family, both immediate and greater. I was a women's libber before the term was coined. It's amazing the amount of rebellion that can go behind closed lips, especially when females are regarded by the males as brainless wonders. It made a perfect hiding place to form my own opinions, and since the only place I was permitted to go alone was the library, guess where and how I learned to do my own research.

I agree with your other comments regarding religious groups and envy you your exposure to others I haven't had the opportunity to associate with. Direct contact is, in my opinion, superior to research of the written materials only, in that it's the only way to understand how it is put into practice. Living in the world headquarters of The Dow Chemical Company and Dow Corning has allowed me to have contact with other nationalities to my great pleasure, but religion hasn't come up so far. While I have many problems with Christianity, I find religion in general to be fascinating. I often wonder if our non-Christian community members haven't been coerced into attending the available churches here in order to fit into the corporate mold.


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## maomac (Oct 21, 2013)

I have often wondered along with MJO and Jessica-Jean about the coverage of erection medications. Oh! A thought! Maybe if they were not covered, it would be considered a form of birth control! 
Or are they covered because it is of use by males in our male-dominated corporations/culture? The health-care provider company I work for was previously owned by a religious-based corporation. I had heard others say that birth control pills could only be prescribed and would be covered by our health insurance if a "valid medical reason" could be found. What "valid medical reason" is needed for erection medications?

Sounds to me Jessica-Jean that we are back to the value placed on females in our society. Would you agree?


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## Longtimer (May 23, 2013)

knovice knitter said:


> I think we are both missing each others' point here. What do you mean I am forcing my beliefs on Hobby Lobby?I am not sure you understand what my beliefs are. It is the big picture I am concerned with. The idea that a corporation can have a belief doesn't sit with me. It is the owners who have the belief.


What do you expect to gain by boycotting HL? I would assume that you either want them to change their policies to agree with your beliefs or to go out of business, which is a negative acceptance of your beliefs. The whole purpose of a boycott is to force the opposite party to change their policies. Thus you are forcing your beliefs on HB.

As far as the big picture goes...the idea that a corporation can have a belief doesn't sit well with you. That's good. You are a resident of Wisconsin. In Wisconsin corporations can not only have beliefs, they can contribute large sums of money with no restraint or identification to further their beliefs during every election period. They don't even have to be located in Wisconsin to make contributions. Gov. Scott Walker can explain just how that works.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

dijewe said:


> You go and get your yarn from Hobbly Lobby if that is what you want. I just recently completed the following blanket for my grandson. All "I Love this yarn' and for under $50. I have made all 3 of my grandchildren blankets with this. My granddaughter's blanket is 4 or 5 years old already and gets washed weekly because she loves it. Still looks perfect.


That blanket is lovely. One of the nicest interpretation's of Paula Beth Levy's design. You do such nice work.

Regarding this topic, I try to shop locally and support the local yarn store, but all the nearby ones have closed. My stash is big enough by now, though, that I shop local flea markets, rummage sales, and yard sales where I often find nice yarn to support the local economy.

If I disagree with the policies of how a business treats employees, I will not spend my money there. The store owners benefit much more than the employees, who are for the most part timers and transient looking for better jobs. I will not endorse policies I find repugnant by patronizing such businesses.

Of course, that is my policy. Other people have different viewpoints. And the beauty of living in a Country such as ours is that we have freedom to make these sorts of decisions.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> If I disagree with the policies of how a business treats employees, I will not spend my money there. The store owners benefit much more than the employees, who are for the most part timers and transient looking for better jobs. I will not endorse policies I find repugnant by patronizing such businesses.


 :thumbup:


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

I shop on line almost all the time. Have you done that?


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

mmorris said:


> I shop on line almost all the time. Have you done that?


Only way to go here. We have one LYS that is far enough away that we have to plan a day trip to go there. Otherwise we have Michael's and AC Moore and Joanne's has had an "opening soon" sign on it for the last 8 months but they still aren't open.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Longtimer said:


> What do you expect to gain by boycotting HL? I would assume that you either want them to change their policies to agree with your beliefs or to go out of business, which is a negative acceptance of your beliefs. The whole purpose of a boycott is to force the opposite party to change their policies. Thus you are forcing your beliefs on HB.
> 
> As far as the big picture goes...the idea that a corporation can have a belief doesn't sit well with you. That's good. You are a resident of Wisconsin. In Wisconsin corporations can not only have beliefs, they can contribute large sums of money with no restraint or identification to further their beliefs during every election period. They don't even have to be located in Wisconsin to make contributions. Gov. Scott Walker can explain just how that works.


My dictionary defines boycott as a refusal to deal with a person, firm, or nation whose actions are viewed with disapproval. Period. It is highly unlikely that, even if the entire US contingent of KP signed on for that, it would make a dent in the multimillion dollar company. I think boycotting is healthier for the individual than sucking it up, but each to his/her own. For me, it makes it much easier to put them out of my mind on a daily basis. Period. I began my boycott of this company some years ago, and at no point did I think they would even notice. I did it for me. Please be careful about assuming, it can be highly misleading.

Governor Scott Walker, in my opinion, is the perfect example of what not to be like, and that isn't based upon assumptions.


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## Revan (Jun 29, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> This is one of the biggest myths around. If you do a little research on each of the writers of the US Constitution, you will find that most of them were not at all religious and much more concerned about keeping separation of church and state for fear the church would take over as did The Church of England back in those times.
> 
> As far as "The American Way of Life," is concerned, it isn't anything like it was even 20 years ago in many major areas, so I really don't know what that means anymore. We appear to be locked in a power battle between the majority and the wealthy, and that certainly wasn't the case until relatively recently. Which would you say represents what you refer to as the American way of life. For some it's living on the streets. For others it's owning multiple mansions. And for yet others, it's everything and everything in between, to the point that for me, that phrase has become pretty meaningless. I have to ask, whose American way of life? I could cite a number of extreme but unique examples as well, but I'm more concerned about the big picture here and now, as well as the huge differences in where various government officials want to lead us. For instance, to me, HL is one of those idiots insisting that the world change to suit them, a single family in this country. Do you see nothing alarming about that? They have a dream and a big picture of this entire nation becoming like them. Yikes, whatever happened to freedom of anything?


You are so right Sam! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Only way to go here. We have one LYS that is far enough away that we have to plan a day trip to go there. Otherwise we have Michael's and AC Moore and Joanne's has had an "opening soon" sign on it for the last 8 months but they still aren't open.


I hope you're lucky enough to get one of the well-stocked Jo-Ann stores. I made a trip to the nearest large city (Saginaw) recently and stopped there, only to find that their inventory has been cut to almost nothing. We have almost four times that amount in my small city. The only problem is that they don't carry enough of any yarn to make any project larger than a baby sweater except in exclusively baby yarns. Big box stores tend to be full of surprises like that. If, on the other hand, you are into scrap booking, there is no end to what you can buy there. Fabrics, not so much. Go figure. Every so often the big box stores decide that the latest knitting/crocheting/sewing revival is dead and they drastically cut their stocks; I have no clue where they get that information. It seems to me it's self-fulfilling prophecy.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> I hope you're lucky enough to get one of the well-stocked Jo-Ann stores. .


After 8 months of 'opening soon', I don't think it's going to ever open


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## Marindy (Oct 12, 2011)

Why do you feel victimized by HL's stand on abortion? Approx. half of aborted fetuses are female. The real "war on women" is ending their lives when their lives are just beginning. Abortion may seem lke a quick fix but many women experience regret years later and find it hard to forgive themselves. These unfortunate women have been told it's their "right" to receive "women's health care services" by others who don't have to live with the consequences. HL's owners don't want to be a part of this.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Don't get me going on Walker. I marched on Madison in the bitter cold to protest his union busting, his healthcare policy and his schmoozing with the Koch Bros. My boycott is not going to make one iota of a difference to HL. I just don't want to give them any of my money. Also, as I stated before, if someone suggests I go there, I can say I don't and a conversation can go from there, where possibly, I can inform someone who has had their head buried under a rock, just what I feel is going on. That person can then offer their opinion. It is called a dialogue and just possibly some consciousness can be raised.


Longtimer said:


> What do you expect to gain by boycotting HL? I would assume that you either want them to change their policies to agree with your beliefs or to go out of business, which is a negative acceptance of your beliefs. The whole purpose of a boycott is to force the opposite party to change their policies. Thus you are forcing your beliefs on HB.
> 
> As far as the big picture goes...the idea that a corporation can have a belief doesn't sit well with you. That's good. You are a resident of Wisconsin. In Wisconsin corporations can not only have beliefs, they can contribute large sums of money with no restraint or identification to further their beliefs during every election period. They don't even have to be located in Wisconsin to make contributions. Gov. Scott Walker can explain just how that works.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Thank you, SAMkewel


SAMkewel said:


> My dictionary defines boycott as a refusal to deal with a person, firm, or nation whose actions are viewed with disapproval. Period. It is highly unlikely that, even if the entire US contingent of KP signed on for that, it would make a dent in the multimillion dollar company. I think boycotting is healthier for the individual than sucking it up, but each to his/her own. For me, it makes it much easier to put them out of my mind on a daily basis. Period. I began my boycott of this company some years ago, and at no point did I think they would even notice. I did it for me. Please be careful about assuming, it can be highly misleading.
> 
> Governor Scott Walker, in my opinion, is the perfect example of what not to be like, and that isn't based upon assumptions.


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## headlemk (Feb 16, 2011)

I never considered Hobby Lobby an LYS. It's a hobby store and closer to a big box than an LYS. 

I think people are jumping to assumptions here that she's referring to Hobby Lobby as her LYS.


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## NCNeedler (Jan 6, 2014)

immunurse said:


> Good question! I think that the whole objection is based on an inaccurate picture painted by people with a political agenda. The first "problem" was that the company policy was that the stores were never open on Sundays, since the owners are devout Christians and also they feel that none of their employees should have to feel pressured to take rotations that included Sundays. So on that one day a week nobody has to work.
> 
> Keep in mind that every LYS I've ever heard of is closed on Sunday and Monday and nobody ever protested. If you own the store you get to decide when to open and when to be closed. No problem - this is called a free market economy. If the LYS loses too much business by doing that, they will have to change their policy or go out of business, but the government shouldn't be asked to step in and force them to open more often.
> 
> ...


Very eloquently put! I whole heartedly agree, and wish I could've said it as well as you did.


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## CCNana (Mar 22, 2013)

NCNeedler said:


> Very eloquently put! I whole heartedly agree, and wish I could've said it as well as you did.


i agree!


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## j-krau1 (Apr 7, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> I hope you're lucky enough to get one of the well-stocked Jo-Ann stores. I made a trip to the nearest large city (Saginaw) recently and stopped there, only to find that their inventory has been cut to almost nothing. We have almost four times that amount in my small city. The only problem is that they don't carry enough of any yarn to make any project larger than a baby sweater except in exclusively baby yarns. Big box stores tend to be full of surprises like that. If, on the other hand, you are into scrap booking, there is no end to what you can buy there. Fabrics, not so much. Go figure. Every so often the big box stores decide that the latest knitting/crocheting/sewing revival is dead and they drastically cut their stocks; I have no clue where they get that information. It seems to me it's self-fulfilling prophecy.


Scrap booking is going digital, thanks to digital cameras. Several stores catering to scrap bookers have closed in our metro area in the last year or two because of digital scrap booking. I don't do either kind as don't do cameras.

Janet, Twin Cities


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

maomac said:


> ... Sounds to me Jessica-Jean that we are back to the value placed on females in our society. Would you agree?


_What_ value? Granted things aren't as bad in North America as in Asia or India, but they're not a whole lot better. A lot of noise is made about equal rights/pay, but - for all the progress there _has_ been in the last hundred years - women are still woefully underrepresented in nearly every non-traditional occupation. The only place we're valued is the marketplace. Madison Avenue tries its best to convince women - be they full-time homemakers or employees - that they just *must* buy product xyz! Actually, it's not women who're sought after, it's their cash - nothing else. Grr!!


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## j-krau1 (Apr 7, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> After 8 months of 'opening soon', I don't think it's going to ever open


Soon could still be anytime in the next 6-12 months. HL is working on putting in a big store in a mall north of me - various other stores have been relocated into other spaces in the mall to make way for the large space required by HL - and will be opening in summer or early fall 2015. I don't have a car and their two other stores in the east metro are outside my reach. Will I be going when this one opens? I don't know, but might be tempted to look over their yarn and supplies to see if worth my time/money. One of the ladies at Friday's monthly knitting previously lived in Lacrosse and said the HL there has drastically cut their yarns and knitters' supplies.

Janet, Twin Cities


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## JoanAbrams (Jan 19, 2014)

Marindy said:


> Why do you feel victimized by HL's stand on abortion? Approx. half of aborted fetuses are female. The real "war on women" is ending their lives when their lives are just beginning. Abortion may seem lke a quick fix but many women experience regret years later and find it hard to forgive themselves. These unfortunate women have been told it's their "right" to receive "women's health care services" by others who don't have to live with the consequences. HL's owners don't want to be a part of this.


Since approx.50% of live births are female, it would hold that 50% of aborted fetuses are female. Of course that means 50% are male. Oh dear, a war on men? Not unless men are carrying those fetuses and choose not to.


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## headlemk (Feb 16, 2011)

JoanAbrams said:


> Since approx.50% of live births are female, it would hold that 50% of aborted fetuses are female. Of course that means 50% are male. Oh dear, a war on men? Not unless men are carrying those fetuses and choose not to.


If "gender selection" becomes a thing, then I'm afraid more female pre-borns will be terminated. Of course since this is the liberal agenda it won't be labeled as a "war on women" and it will still be blamed on conservatives.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

headlemk said:


> If "gender selection" becomes a thing, then I'm afraid more female pre-borns will be terminated. ...


It is/was 'a thing' in China and India since sonograms became widely available - about 20 - 25 years ago. Now that all those highly valued boy babies are becoming young adults, those societies have a problem they were too short-sighted to foresee: no young women of the right bloodlines for their cherished young men to marry and procreate with!


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## headlemk (Feb 16, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> It is/was 'a thing' in China and India since sonograms became widely available - about 20 - 25 years ago. Now that all those highly valued boy babies are becoming young adults, those societies have a problem they were too short-sighted to foresee: no young women of the right bloodlines for their cherished young men to marry and procreate with!


My point exactly. I was specifically speaking of here in the US, but the point remains the same.


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## Knittin' in Georgia (Jun 27, 2013)

immunurse said:


> Good question! I think that the whole objection is based on an inaccurate picture painted by people with a political agenda. The first "problem" was that the company policy was that the stores were never open on Sundays, since the owners are devout Christians and also they feel that none of their employees should have to feel pressured to take rotations that included Sundays. So on that one day a week nobody has to work.
> 
> Keep in mind that every LYS I've ever heard of is closed on Sunday and Monday and nobody ever protested. If you own the store you get to decide when to open and when to be closed. No problem - this is called a free market economy. If the LYS loses too much business by doing that, they will have to change their policy or go out of business, but the government shouldn't be asked to step in and force them to open more often.
> 
> ...


Thanks for getting on your "soapbox," and thank you for saying it so well.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> After 8 months of 'opening soon', I don't think it's going to ever open


I well remember when Jo-Ann built their store here with their "opening soon" sign. It took nearly four years, but it did come to pass. I guess they, as a corporation/franchise have a different sense of the passage of time from the rest of us.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Marindy said:


> Why do you feel victimized by HL's stand on abortion? Approx. half of aborted fetuses are female. The real "war on women" is ending their lives when their lives are just beginning. Abortion may seem lke a quick fix but many women experience regret years later and find it hard to forgive themselves. These unfortunate women have been told it's their "right" to receive "women's health care services" by others who don't have to live with the consequences. HL's owners don't want to be a part of this.


I suppose it depends upon one's perspective. As the youngest member of my family, sexually, emotionally, and physically abused from the age of three and having spent a lifetime trying to overcome its effects, there have certainly been times when I question that my birth was a good thing for me. For them it gave them a hidden outlet for their antisocial behaviors; for me it caused over four decades to pass before I could find my voice in much of anything. Now, of course, there are many who think I'm too outspoken. Such is life. It's a shame corporations don't do something for the already born.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Sorry, one of my dogs jumped for attention and apparently caused a second sending of my post.


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## MarciaV (Jun 22, 2011)

DonnieK said:


> I personally have been boycotting Hobby Lobby for years though I love the "I Love this yarn" "I love this Cotton" "I love this wool", but, I can find other yarns at garage sales, thrift shops, online, from sellers here on KP without having to sacrifice my beliefs. I have made Hobby Lobby "big guys" that I am boycotting and will continue to do so until they stop hiding behind their "religious beliefs" to further their own good. One person not buy from them may not matter, but one person telling 1,000's of other people can make a difference. If everyone would stop shopping at their stores for just one day, they might get the picture.
> I would stand up for my beliefs and my inner feelings. You won't go wrong in doing so.


It is interesting to me that you tell this person to stand up for her beliefs (and that that is what you would do), but when HL did just that, that were criticized mercilessly. It's also interesting to me how many people vehemently spoke out against HL without even knowing the facts of the situation.


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## headlemk (Feb 16, 2011)

MarciaV said:


> It is interesting to me that you tell this person to stand up for her beliefs (and that that is what you would do), but when HL did just that, that were criticized mercilessly. It's also interesting to me how many people vehemently spoke out against HL without even knowing the facts of the situation.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> _What_ value? Granted things aren't as bad in North America as in Asia or India, but they're not a whole lot better. A lot of noise is made about equal rights/pay, but - for all the progress there _has_ been in the last hundred years - women are still woefully underrepresented in nearly every non-traditional occupation. The only place we're valued is the marketplace. Madison Avenue tries its best to convince women - be they full-time homemakers or employees - that they just *must* buy product xyz! Actually, it's not women who're sought after, it's their cash - nothing else. Grr!!


I totally agree, Jessica-Jean. None of the men in any of my former workplaces prior to retirement were expected to help me with my job in any way, shape, or form, but I was always expected to put in extra hours to make them look good. There are many ways of undervaluing women. I'm probably the only woman who did not show up for my "retirement party," since I was not consulted on whether I wished to drive four hours roundtrip for an alcohol-related party desired by the male element; I've always been a teetotaler because I cannot tolerate the effects of alcohol. None of them have spoken to me since, no loss, but I think I made my point.


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## lilydragon (Oct 2, 2011)

Ok, I have on reason, and one reason only for not shopping at HL. Here in NM it is almost twice as expensive as Joann's and Michaels. I don't care about their beliefs and what they will pay for their employees in the way of birth control. IMHO this has gotten way too heated and I've read 13 pages...


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

MarciaV said:


> It is interesting to me that you tell this person to stand up for her beliefs (and that that is what you would do), but when HL did just that, that were criticized mercilessly. It's also interesting to me how many people vehemently spoke out against HL without even knowing the facts of the situation.


In that case, you must be high on interest at this point. I find it interesting from all points of view, but don't necessarily agree or disagree with only one in every case. BTW, HL is not a person. How can you tell whether people know the facts of a situation or not?


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> ... HL is not a person. ...


I thought that the US government - in all its self-serving 'wisdom' (cough, snigger) - had declared all corporations were legal persons. Not so? (I sincerely wish it weren't so!)


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> I thought that the US government - in all its self-serving 'wisdom' (cough, snigger) - had declared all corporations were legal persons. Not so? (I sincerely with it weren't so!)


You have a legal point, but I tend to resist all poppycock dished out by the US government. If only it made a difference, eh?


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## Bombshellknits (Feb 2, 2013)

I go with my gut and my morals. Non-knitting example: we have a local health food store. I have known the owner since we were in middle school. She knows my daughters, and I know her daughter. She also knows my husband. Yet, one day when he was getting gas and I sat in the car she told him he was cute and was he still married. He pointed to me in the car. I refuse to shop at her store. I found her behavior disrespectful to me, and I won't put any money in her pocket. So, do what works for you.


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## hgayle (Aug 22, 2011)

Beetytwird said:


> What is " IMHO" please?


In my humble opinion.


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## headlemk (Feb 16, 2011)

hgayle said:


> In my humble opinion.


Or...in my honest opinion.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Bombshellknits said:


> I go with my gut and my morals. Non-knitting example: we have a local health food store. I have known the owner since we were in middle school. She knows my daughters, and I know her daughter. She also knows my husband. Yet, one day when he was getting gas and I sat in the car she told him he was cute and was he still married. He pointed to me in the car. I refuse to shop at her store. I found her behavior disrespectful to me, and I won't put any money in her pocket. So, do what works for you.


Oh my, that takes NERVE and no morals. Some women never grow beyond competitive teenage I guess, and I agree that it was disrespectful, not only of you but of your husband as well.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

Spend your money wherever you like. I was in "a particular store" awhile back and developed a migraine. Some strong smelling chemical, plastic, dried flowers or whatever it was, made me really sick. Never again.
Personally I like the convenience of online.
Knitpicks, Elann, Paradise,Lion Brand. I shop for price, convenience, availability and selection. Sometimes coupons or a discount, free shipping.
If I need 10 hanks of something, and the local shop has only seven, and all in different dyelots, I have wasted a trip and still don't have the yarn.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

lilydragon said:


> Ok, I have on reason, and one reason only for not shopping at HL. Here in NM it is almost twice as expensive as Joann's and Michaels. I don't care about their beliefs and what they will pay for their employees in the way of birth control. IMHO this has gotten way too heated and I've read 13 pages...


You don't believe an occasional heated discussion is good for the soul? I do, and it matters not to me which side you're on as long as you're true to yourself.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I boycott Hobby Lobby because of my beliefs. I don't care what they try to do at this point. I hope the free marketplace speaks and they close, serving as an example to other businesses. 'Believe what you like, but don't try to force it on your customers.'



Longtimer said:


> What do you expect to gain by boycotting HL? I would assume that you either want them to change their policies to agree with your beliefs or to go out of business, which is a negative acceptance of your beliefs. The whole purpose of a boycott is to force the opposite party to change their policies. Thus you are forcing your beliefs on HB.
> 
> As far as the big picture goes...the idea that a corporation can have a belief doesn't sit well with you. That's good. You are a resident of Wisconsin. In Wisconsin corporations can not only have beliefs, they can contribute large sums of money with no restraint or identification to further their beliefs during every election period. They don't even have to be located in Wisconsin to make contributions. Gov. Scott Walker can explain just how that works.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> That blanket is lovely. One of the nicest interpretation's of Paula Beth Levy's design. You do such nice work.
> 
> Regarding this topic, I try to shop locally and support the local yarn store, but all the nearby ones have closed. My stash is big enough by now, though, that I shop local flea markets, rummage sales, and yard sales where I often find nice yarn to support the local economy.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Well put.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Dangrktty said:


> Spend your money wherever you like. I was in "a particular store" awhile back and developed a migraine. Some strong smelling chemical, plastic, dried flowers or whatever it was, made me really sick. Never again.
> Personally I like the convenience of online.
> Knitpicks, Elann, Paradise,Lion Brand. I shop for price, convenience, availability and selection. Sometimes coupons or a discount, free shipping.
> If I need 10 hanks of something, and the local shop has only seven, and all in different dyelots, I have wasted a trip and still don't have the yarn.


Even though we finally have a true LYS, and I try to support it (not single-handedly), I still often prefer online shopping and find myself in big box stores less and less often. The scents and chemicals you refer to are especially bad for anyone with heart problems. My now deceased DH was not able to tolerate that at all after his first bypass surgery and passed out twice before he learned to stay clear of those places.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

If they did open 'soon,' I'm sure they'd close their doors just as quickly with no notice to anyone.



jbandsma said:


> After 8 months of 'opening soon', I don't think it's going to ever open


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm sorry for what you endured. You seem like a very strong person. Thanks for sharing.



SAMkewel said:


> I suppose it depends upon one's perspective. As the youngest member of my family, sexually, emotionally, and physically abused from the age of three and having spent a lifetime trying to overcome its effects, there have certainly been times when I question that my birth was a good thing for me. For them it gave them a hidden outlet for their antisocial behaviors; for me it caused over four decades to pass before I could find my voice in much of anything. Now, of course, there are many who think I'm too outspoken. Such is life. It's a shame corporations don't do something for the already born.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> In that case, you must be high on interest at this point. I find it interesting from all points of view, but don't necessarily agree or disagree with only one in every case. BTW, HL is not a person. How can you tell whether people know the facts of a situation or not?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Good point!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> You don't believe an occasional heated discussion is good for the soul? I do, and it matters not to me which side you're on as long as you're true to yourself.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

damemary said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Thank you, it's nice to know someone else is still up ;~D!


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## Bombshellknits (Feb 2, 2013)

One thing I will say, and I have different issues with HL. Not the birth control issue. But, others. I do not feel that the morning after pill should be considered birth control. I think it should be an emergency plan in case of an accident or possible date rape, etc. Contraception should be handled on a daily basis. But, I am defining my opinion on birth control and contraception, I am not siding with or against HL. As I said, I have different issues with them. Aside from the fact that I live in a small town that has a WalMart and no other big box stores. Hobby Lobby, JoAnn's, Pat Catan's or Michael's are all 30 mins in one direction or 40 in the other. If my LYS doesn't have it, I go on line. My WalMart carries very little yarn. A lot of Caron simply soft, which I love, but, you MUST rewind it.


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## Bombshellknits (Feb 2, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> Oh my, that takes NERVE and no morals. Some women never grow beyond competitive teenage I guess, and I agree that it was disrespectful, not only of you but of your husband as well.


My husband doesn't wear a wedding band because he is a carpenter. It's fine with me. I prefer he keep all his fingers. But, a lot of women assume he is unmarried because of it, or running around with a married woman . But, this woman, she has known us for YEARS! She's just an entitled girl who thinks she can have whomever and whatever she wants. She has offered him massages before, too. Too bad she doesn't know he tells me and he is appalled.


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## dunnville89 (Apr 24, 2012)

If we boycott on the basis of religious beliefs, we will have to look into the beliefs of all owners of businesses so we can decide where to shop or with whom to do business. There are Muslim business owners, Jewish, Mormon, etc. Maybe we don't agree with them either - we will be very selective and careful when choosing. Think about it, it is insane.


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## SuellenS (Aug 27, 2013)

I would not shop there. I, personally, boycott businesses that discriminate against certain people.


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## hgayle (Aug 22, 2011)

j-krau1 said:


> Scrap booking is going digital, thanks to digital cameras. Several stores catering to scrap bookers have closed in our metro area in the last year or two because of digital scrap booking. I don't do either kind as don't do cameras.
> 
> Janet, Twin Cities


Not in this area. It's the economy that has caused the stores in my area to close. We still have one privately owned here and a huge one in Branson. I'll never become a digital scrapbooker - I like the paper, and the embellishments, etc. and it takes as long to do a digital layout as a traditional one.


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## headlemk (Feb 16, 2011)

damemary said:


> I boycott Hobby Lobby because of my beliefs. I don't care what they try to do at this point. I hope the free marketplace speaks and they close, serving as an example to other businesses. 'Believe what you like, but don't try to force it on your customers.'


What are they "forcing on ... customers"? Are they not paying for your morning-after pill? :roll:


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## ElyseKnox (Sep 16, 2011)

MarciaV said:


> It is interesting to me that you tell this person to stand up for her beliefs (and that that is what you would do), but when HL did just that, that were criticized mercilessly. It's also interesting to me how many people vehemently spoke out against HL without even knowing the facts of the situation.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

JohnnyB said:


> I have a limited yarn budget and usually buy from the box stores unless I get yarn $ for Christmas which I would spend at my LYS. One store I frequent has, IMHO, the softest acrylic worsted in a wide palate of colors. However, I don't agree with the politics nor the HR restrictions they espouse. What to do? Boycott the place and buy yarn I don't like as much elsewhere, or buy what I want and then feel guilty ? Seems like a no win situation to me. Anyone else out there in the same boat ? What would you do ? TIA. :shock:


I dont buy from companies where I am strongly opposed to their policies or politics. There are so many yarn sources out there with good prices and great yarn to compromise.
We often discuss on this forum NOT buying needles from Knit Picks because the quality has gone down since they are being produced in China or NOT buying yarn that runs or splits terribly or has way too many knots to be acceptable.
As consumers we have power that we dont seem to as voters.
Money talks!


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

dunnville89 said:


> If we boycott on the basis of religious beliefs, we will have to look into the beliefs of all owners of businesses so we can decide where to shop or with whom to do business. There are Muslim business owners, Jewish, Mormon, etc. Maybe we don't agree with them either - we will be very selective and careful when choosing. Think about it, it is insane.


It is not the religious beliefs of the HL owners that is the problem. We are free (so far) in this country to believe and worship as we wish. 
It is restricting employees to health care limited by the owners' religious beliefs that is at issue.


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

Dangrktty said:


> Spend your money wherever you like. I was in "a particular store" awhile back and developed a migraine. Some strong smelling chemical, plastic, dried flowers or whatever it was, made me really sick. Never again.
> Personally I like the convenience of online.
> Knitpicks, Elann, Paradise,Lion Brand. I shop for price, convenience, availability and selection. Sometimes coupons or a discount, free shipping.
> If I need 10 hanks of something, and the local shop has only seven, and all in different dyelots, I have wasted a trip and still don't have the yarn.


 I so agree with you! I would much rather shop online. Although I do enjoy going to one of my LYS when they have a sale and "feeling" the lovely yarn!


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## headlemk (Feb 16, 2011)

GroodleMom said:


> It is not the religious beliefs of the HL owners that is the problem. We are free (so far) in this country to believe and worship as we wish.
> It is restricting employees to health care limited by the owners' religious beliefs that is at issue.


There it goes again. The perpetuation of this misinformation is exceeded only by one's dislike for anything that isn't totally in sync with one's own preferences.

HL is not restricting employees' healthcare. They are not preventing them from paying out of their own pockets for anything the company does not wish to pay for. ALL companies do this to a certain extent. ALL policies have some restrictions on some coverage that if you wish to have that coverage you will have to pay out of pocket. HL is NOT preventing their employees from birth control, they are simply not wanting to pay for 4 out of 20 types mandated by the ACA. If the employee wants one of those 4, they can pay for it themselves. Most people can afford the $50 for a morning-after pill. HL is a privately owned company. It is not a government run entity.

It would be better for everyone if they would learn the facts before spouting misinformation. Do your own research ... thoroughly.


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## immunurse (May 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> I boycott Hobby Lobby because of my beliefs. I don't care what they try to do at this point. I hope the free marketplace speaks and they close, serving as an example to other businesses. 'Believe what you like, but don't try to force it on your customers.'


What is Hobby Lobby "forcing on its customers?" I've shopped there many times - I went in an Episcopalian and came out the same! Nobody forced any religious beliefs on me.

As to closing on Sunday. Do you know of a LYS that is open on Sundays? I'll bet there aren't any - or if there certainly aren't many. And they're nearly all closed on Mondays as well. What are they "forcing" on their customers?


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## hgayle (Aug 22, 2011)

headlemk said:


> There it goes again. The perpetuation of this misinformation is exceeded only by one's dislike for anything that isn't totally in sync with one's own preferences.
> 
> HL is not restricting employees' healthcare. They are not preventing them from paying out of their own pockets for anything the company does not wish to pay for. ALL companies do this to a certain extent. ALL policies have some restrictions on some coverage that if you wish to have that coverage you will have to pay out of pocket. HL is NOT preventing their employees from birth control, they are simply not wanting to pay for 4 out of 20 types mandated by the ACA. If the employee wants one of those 4, they can pay for it themselves. Most people can afford the $50 for a morning-after pill. HL is a privately owned company. It is not a government run entity.
> 
> It would be better for everyone if they would learn the facts before spouting misinformation. Do your own research ... thoroughly.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## j-krau1 (Apr 7, 2011)

immunurse said:


> What is Hobby Lobby "forcing on its customers?" I've shopped there many times - I went in an Episcopalian and came out the same! Nobody forced any religious beliefs on me.
> 
> As to closing on Sunday. Do you know of a LYS that is open on Sundays? I'll bet there aren't any - or if there certainly aren't many. And they're nearly all closed on Mondays as well. What are they "forcing" on their customers?


Our LYS here in nordeast just extended their hours for Labor Day to Memorial Day, now open 10am-6pm both Sun/Mon, 10am-8pm Tue/Wed/Thu, 10am-7pm Fri/Sat. Presumably, they'll revert to summer hours after Memorial Day next year, but were still open for 6 hours on Sun this past summer. The shop does include lots of designer fabrics and they have various classes for sewing, knitting, and crochet. So not just a yarn shop.

Janet, Twin Cities


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## ChrisB (Jan 29, 2013)

what a darling blanket, if my "little boy" was still little, I'd beg you for the pattern.


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## Gerripho (Dec 7, 2013)

headlemk said:


> There it goes again. The perpetuation of this misinformation is exceeded only by one's dislike for anything that isn't totally in sync with one's own preferences.
> 
> HL is not restricting employees' healthcare. They are not preventing them from paying out of their own pockets for anything the company does not wish to pay for. ALL companies do this to a certain extent. ALL policies have some restrictions on some coverage that if you wish to have that coverage you will have to pay out of pocket. HL is NOT preventing their employees from birth control, they are simply not wanting to pay for 4 out of 20 types mandated by the ACA. If the employee wants one of those 4, they can pay for it themselves. Most people can afford the $50 for a morning-after pill. HL is a privately owned company. It is not a government run entity.
> 
> It would be better for everyone if they would learn the facts before spouting misinformation. Do your own research ... thoroughly.


Exactly! If only the alphabet soup news people, the ABC-CBS-NBC-CNN-MSNBC and even FOX had reported all the facts, we probably would not have 21 pages of discussion here. It does take research into most any topic to get the facts from *both* sides.

Be truthful, all you posters, and tell us if you have actually read the Supreme Court's decision in this case. It's only 95 pages but I doubt anyone has actually read it.

As for a corporation not being persons who can have an opinion, there was a whole different take on this topic when people were demanding corporations divest themselves of any interest in South Africa during their apartheid days. People were actually demanding that corporations support a particular policy and a particular position. Seems to me we have a contradiction here. Corporations are either required to express a position, policy, or belief, -- or, corporations are not permitted to do so. This is not to express an opinion or judgement of either the HL case or the apartheid issue, but only to point out that corporations can't be both expected to express an opinion and to be barred from expressing an opinion solely depending on whether or not one agrees with the opinion.


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## ElyseKnox (Sep 16, 2011)

"Seems to me we have a contradiction here. Corporations are either required to express a position, policy, or belief, -- or, corporations are not permitted to do so. This is not to express an opinion or judgement of either the HL case or the apartheid issue, but only to point out that corporations can't be both expected to express an opinion and to be barred from expressing an opinion solely depending on whether or not one agrees with the opinion."

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Very good point. Logic and consistency are the bedrock of informed discussion.



Gerripho said:


> Exactly! If only the alphabet soup news people, the ABC-CBS-NBC-CNN-MSNBC and even FOX had reported all the facts, we probably would not have 21 pages of discussion here. It does take research into most any topic to get the facts from *both* sides.
> 
> Be truthful, all you posters, and tell us if you have actually read the Supreme Court's decision in this case. It's only 95 pages but I doubt anyone has actually read it.
> 
> As for a corporation not being persons who can have an opinion, there was a whole different take on this topic when people were demanding corporations divest themselves of any interest in South Africa during their apartheid days. People were actually demanding that corporations support a particular policy and a particular position. Seems to me we have a contradiction here. Corporations are either required to express a position, policy, or belief, -- or, corporations are not permitted to do so. This is not to express an opinion or judgement of either the HL case or the apartheid issue, but only to point out that corporations can't be both expected to express an opinion and to be barred from expressing an opinion solely depending on whether or not one agrees with the opinion.


≈


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## Linda333 (Feb 26, 2011)

headlemk said:


> There it goes again. The perpetuation of this misinformation is exceeded only by one's dislike for anything that isn't totally in sync with one's own preferences.
> 
> HL is not restricting employees' healthcare. They are not preventing them from paying out of their own pockets for anything the company does not wish to pay for. ALL companies do this to a certain extent. ALL policies have some restrictions on some coverage that if you wish to have that coverage you will have to pay out of pocket. HL is NOT preventing their employees from birth control, they are simply not wanting to pay for 4 out of 20 types mandated by the ACA. If the employee wants one of those 4, they can pay for it themselves. Most people can afford the $50 for a morning-after pill. HL is a privately owned company. It is not a government run entity.
> 
> It would be better for everyone if they would learn the facts before spouting misinformation. Do your own research ... thoroughly.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Bombshellknits said:


> My husband doesn't wear a wedding band because he is a carpenter. It's fine with me. I prefer he keep all his fingers. But, a lot of women assume he is unmarried because of it, or running around with a married woman . But, this woman, she has known us for YEARS! She's just an entitled girl who thinks she can have whomever and whatever she wants. She has offered him massages before, too. Too bad she doesn't know he tells me and he is appalled.


Hmmm. I wonder if it wouldn't be very educational for her to have someone tell her that he is appalled; do you have a mutual acquaintance willing to pass on the message?

My now deceased DH was also a carpenter who never wore a wedding ring for the same reason. If he had the same kinds of problems with women ring-finger-watchers, he never mentioned it. This particular woman doesn't care whether he's married or not. Either way, it points out my mantra that assumptions are dangerous once again :~). Apparently she assumes she's entitled to take what she wants and needs to learn that isn't the case.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

GroodleMom said:


> I dont buy from companies where I am strongly opposed to their policies or politics. There are so many yarn sources out there with good prices and great yarn to compromise.
> We often discuss on this forum NOT buying needles from Knit Picks because the quality has gone down since they are being produced in China or NOT buying yarn that runs or splits terribly or has way too many knots to be acceptable.
> As consumers we have power that we dont seem to as voters.
> Money talks!


Sadly, money talks loudest in political circles if one has plenty of it.....


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

j-krau1 said:


> Our LYS here in nordeast just extended their hours for Labor Day to Memorial Day, now open 10am-6pm both Sun/Mon, 10am-8pm Tue/Wed/Thu, 10am-7pm Fri/Sat. Presumably, they'll revert to summer hours after Memorial Day next year, but were still open for 6 hours on Sun this past summer. The shop does include lots of designer fabrics and they have various classes for sewing, knitting, and crochet. So not just a yarn shop.
> 
> Janet, Twin Cities


Our former LYS, now strictly a quilting shop, is and has always been open on Sundays as well; the current new owners, who are very vocal/open about their Christianity, have continued the Sunday hours. Our new LYS store is never open on Sundays nor is religion ever mentioned.


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## MrsMurdog (Apr 16, 2013)

dijewe said:


> You go and get your yarn from Hobbly Lobby if that is what you want. I just recently completed the following blanket for my grandson. All "I Love this yarn' and for under $50. I have made all 3 of my grandchildren blankets with this. My granddaughter's blanket is 4 or 5 years old already and gets washed weekly because she loves it. Still looks perfect.


Oh! If you don't mind, I would love to "borrow" your photo. My niece has made to of the fish blankets, but only used two colors. Do I have your permission to copy and forward your photo to her?


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## Rutherford Roe (Apr 16, 2014)

If it's really such a problem those people shouldn't have started working there in the first place - leave - go elsewhere -no one dragged them by the neck and forced them to work there- the whole situation is getting old fast...


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> Don't get me going on Walker. I marched on Madison in the bitter cold to protest his union busting, his healthcare policy and his schmoozing with the Koch Bros. My boycott is not going to make one iota of a difference to HL. I just don't want to give them any of my money. Also, as I stated before, if someone suggests I go there, I can say I don't and a conversation can go from there, where possibly, I can inform someone who has had their head buried under a rock, just what I feel is going on. That person can then offer their opinion. It is called a dialogue and just possibly some consciousness can be raised.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> _What_ value? Granted things aren't as bad in North America as in Asia or India, but they're not a whole lot better. A lot of noise is made about equal rights/pay, but - for all the progress there _has_ been in the last hundred years - women are still woefully underrepresented in nearly every non-traditional occupation. The only place we're valued is the marketplace. Madison Avenue tries its best to convince women - be they full-time homemakers or employees - that they just *must* buy product xyz! Actually, it's not women who're sought after, it's their cash - nothing else. Grr!!


On the button, Jessica Jean. And so much of the product is to make females more enticing to men: makeup, jewelry, modern fashions which are too revealing. Women are bamboozled into spending hours on painting their faces, coloring their hair, getting manicures and pedicures, and for what? To get some shallow twit to think she is beautiful? The real women I know do worthwhile things with their time trying to make the world a better place, safer for women and children, among other factors.

So many of the products pushed are demeaning to women. Think about it.


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## headlemk (Feb 16, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> On the button, Jessica Jean. And so much of the product is to make females more enticing to men: makeup, jewelry, modern fashions which are too revealing. Women are bamboozled into spending hours on painting their faces, coloring their hair, getting manicures and pedicures, and for what? To get some shallow twit to think she is beautiful? The real women I know do worthwhile things with their time trying to make the world a better place, safer for women and children, among other factors.
> 
> So many of the products pushed are demeaning to women. Think about it.


Actually I can get manicures and pedicures and still make the world a better place where I am. After many years of working I believe I deserve a little pampering for myself. Besides, taking care of my hands and feet at my age is a healthy thing to do.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> I totally agree, Jessica-Jean. None of the men in any of my former workplaces prior to retirement were expected to help me with my job in any way, shape, or form, but I was always expected to put in extra hours to make them look good. There are many ways of undervaluing women. I'm probably the only woman who did not show up for my "retirement party," since I was not consulted on whether I wished to drive four hours roundtrip for an alcohol-related party desired by the male element; I've always been a teetotaler because I cannot tolerate the effects of alcohol. None of them have spoken to me since, no loss, but I think I made my point.


You are wonderful. My job ended with a big layoff, and most of my department left. All women except for one young man who landed a much better job not long after.

The director of sales left about three months later. Without "us girls" work to make him look good, his true (lack of) talents were very evident. And we got a very nice severance package because of the number of people laid off. State law mandated a week's pay for every year of employment, and they paid me for six months not to work. I won.

The worst part of the job was the almost mandatory socialization the director kept organizing. When we finally left, the four of us who were really friends went out to dinner together and had a great time.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> In that case, you must be high on interest at this point. I find it interesting from all points of view, but don't necessarily agree or disagree with only one in every case. BTW, HL is not a person. How can you tell whether people know the facts of a situation or not?


Don't you know that Corporations are People? One of the most ridiculous decisions ever made among a plethora of stupid decisions our courts have made.


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## j-krau1 (Apr 7, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Don't you know that Corporations are People? One of the most ridiculous decisions ever made among a plethora of stupid decisions our courts have made.


And all the buck passing that ensues when something goes wrong and nobody wants to take responsibility!

Janet


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## Gerripho (Dec 7, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Don't you know that Corporations are People? One of the most ridiculous decisions ever made among a plethora of stupid decisions our courts have made.


No one said corporations are people. The applicable term is "persons". From the opinion in this case:

As we noted above, RFRA applies to "a person's" exercise of religion, ... and RFRA itself does not define the term "person." We therefore look the the Dictionary Act, which we must consult "_n determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, unless the context indicates otherwise." ...

Under the Dictionary Act, "the wor[d] 'person' ... include corporations, companies, associations, firms, partnerships, societies, and joint stock companies, as well as individuals." Ibid.; see FCC v. AT&T Inc, 562 U.S. ____, ____ (2011) (slip op., at 6) (We have no doubt that 'person,' in a legal setting, often refers to artificial entities. The Dictionary Act makes that clear"

(Elipses in above quote substituted for references to United States Code citations.)

The Dictionary Act was enacted by Congress in 1871. The U.S. Supreme Court did not "decide corporations are people," the legislative branch of our government with the signature of our president at the time established that corporations and other entities were to be considered as "persons" for legal purposes unless defined otherwise.

Likewise, RFRA, the legislation underwhich Burwell v. Hobby Lobby was decided, used the term "person" with the meaning from the Dictionary Act left intact. RFRA was passed by Congress and signed into law by none other than William Jefferson Clinton.

As Jackie Gleason would say, "How sweet it is!"_


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## GroodleMom (Feb 27, 2011)

headlemk said:


> There it goes again. The perpetuation of this misinformation is exceeded only by one's dislike for anything that isn't totally in sync with one's own preferences.
> 
> HL is not restricting employees' healthcare. They are not preventing them from paying out of their own pockets for anything the company does not wish to pay for. ALL companies do this to a certain extent. ALL policies have some restrictions on some coverage that if you wish to have that coverage you will have to pay out of pocket. HL is NOT preventing their employees from birth control, they are simply not wanting to pay for 4 out of 20 types mandated by the ACA. If the employee wants one of those 4, they can pay for it themselves. Most people can afford the $50 for a morning-after pill. HL is a privately owned company. It is not a government run entity.
> 
> It would be better for everyone if they would learn the facts before spouting misinformation. Do your own research ... thoroughly.


I am not "spouting misinformation". HL is cherry picking which health benefits a company will or will not cover based on their "beliefs".
Of course, any employee anywhere has the option of paying for medical procedures/ treatments that they want or need. That is not the issue and I would imagine health care would be a major perk for working at HL for most employees.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Gerripho said:


> No one said corporations are people. The applicable term is "persons". From the opinion in this case:
> 
> As we noted above, RFRA applies to "a person's" exercise of religion, ... and RFRA itself does not define the term "person." We therefore look the the Dictionary Act, which we must consult "_n determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, unless the context indicates otherwise." ...
> 
> ...


_

Hmmmm, while my big dictionary has the words "people" and "person" in it, it does not have "persons." How interesting, and the dictionary isn't terribly old, either._


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## Gerripho (Dec 7, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> Hmmmm, while my big dictionary has the words "people" and "person" in it, it does not have "persons." How interesting, and the dictionary isn't terribly old, either.


Didn't you check your copy of Black's Law Dictionary? It's in there.


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## Longtimer (May 23, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> Hmmmm, while my big dictionary has the words "people" and "person" in it, it does not have "persons." How interesting, and the dictionary isn't terribly old, either.


Persons is the plural of person. It will not have a separate entry. The plural is usually listed right after the main entry and often just the ending is given -s, 
-es or irregulars whole word given: goose, geese


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## lilydragon (Oct 2, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> You don't believe an occasional heated discussion is good for the soul? I do, and it matters not to me which side you're on as long as you're true to yourself.


I don't mind a heated discussion, but this post has pretty much been hijacked about a discussion on HL. I think if it is to continue it needs to be in a separate post. The original poster was asking for advice on what s/he should do, s/he didn't mention the stores name. Everyone assumed s/he was speaking of HL, s/he could have been talking about an LYS or another store in their area that sells yarn. It isn't fair to the poster that it was hijacked about HL when we don't know which store s/he was talking about.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Gerripho said:


> Didn't you check your copy of Black's Law Dictionary? It's in there.


No, I didn't, because I don't have one. Anything beyond local and state law has never been my area, and It has been a long time since I was current on that.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Galaxy: I agree with you all the way! Usually buy on-line which is easier for me.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

lilydragon said:


> I don't mind a heated discussion, but this post has pretty much been hijacked about a discussion on HL. I think if it is to continue it needs to be in a separate post. The original poster was asking for advice on what s/he should do, s/he didn't mention the stores name. Everyone assumed s/he was speaking of HL, s/he could have been talking about an LYS or another store in their area that sells yarn. It isn't fair to the poster that it was hijacked about HL when we don't know which store s/he was talking about.


I'm aware of that. I'm one of the folks who brought that point up in the first pages of the discussion. It's a lot like a normal conversation, isn't it, where one thing leads to another. It has been happening on KP ever since March of 2011. Since the OP has not commented in the negative about it, perhaps she expected it? I know that I expect just about anything when I post, including being totally ignored, and it isn't particularly an issue with me. I try really hard not to speak for other people when I don't have a clue how they feel, I figure they'll say something if they're unhappy.

I reread the forum rules recently and didn't see anything about hijacking being forbidden. Did I miss something?


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Longtimer said:


> Persons is the plural of person. It will not have a separate entry. The plural is usually listed right after the main entry and often just the ending is given -s,
> -es or irregulars whole word given: goose, geese


Yes, I understand what the word means, but there is no plural shown for person in any of my dictionaries except the word "people' which is in common use. I don't think I'll make any more idle comments about such things since it appears to be upsetting to some. I was simply musing about the way language is constantly being changed.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> I actually bought some Noro at full price once, but _only_ because the shop owner refused to sell the pattern she'd designed for use with Noro! I never did use the bleeping yarn; this year I gave it to another knitter in our group. I made this with my leftover variegated yarns and that pattern she wouldn't sell alone: http://www.ravelry.com/projects/JessicaJean/mitred-copper-mountain-scarf


I browbeat Ginette into posting photos of the shawl she made from the Noro yarn I hadn't wanted to buy in the first place. http://www.ravelry.com/projects/olithia/lalas-simple-shawl
Here's one:


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## Bombshellknits (Feb 2, 2013)

One thing I do know, with HL and lots of other businesses and people who run businesses, their lives would be easier if they were smart enough to shut up. My husband and I have a small construction business. Very few people know much about us, and our beliefs, because we don't tell them. It has nothing to do with anything. Our business is run from home. But...during election time there are no signs in our yard. We keep a very low profile. Our opinions are expressed to each other, and our children. We try to patronize small businesses when we can. I am currently driving a 7 year old Saturn ION. One recall has been fixed. There is another. Still waiting on more info there. It IS time for a new car, but, I will tread carefully. It doesn't matter what I CAN afford, it's what I will buy. Low key, low profile. It's a town of around 30,000. too fancy of a car, and it can lead to a decline in business. People watch, and people gossip. We are super careful not to give them an opening. I'm not saying our way is perfect. But, it makes it easier. People will gossip about me. But, I try not to make it easy for them. It's all very premeditated, and sometimes a pain in the butt, but, it keeps consequences at bay. I hear what people say about 2 masonry contractors who have a flashier style. My husband goes so far as to by nearly the same vehicle every time he upgrades. Or as close as he can get. Odds are pretty good most people don't notice it's a new vehicle. 

So, HL, or whomever that get backlash sometimes do get it because they aren't smart enough to stop talking. You know that old saying about it being better to be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt? Lots of businesses and celebs need to think about that a bit more.


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## Marindy (Oct 12, 2011)

I understand what you're saying about keeping a low profile when in business, but your concerns aren't about your religion. HL's owners have deeply held beliefs that they don't save for Sundays when at church. They know they'll lose some customers who are "offended," but others who respect or share those beliefs will shop there. With so much being said these days about greedy corporations, HL puts Almighty God above the Almighty Dollar.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Bombshellknits said:


> One thing I do know, with HL and lots of other businesses and people who run businesses, their lives would be easier if they were smart enough to shut up. My husband and I have a small construction business. Very few people know much about us, and our beliefs, because we don't tell them. It has nothing to do with anything. Our business is run from home. But...during election time there are no signs in our yard. We keep a very low profile. Our opinions are expressed to each other, and our children. We try to patronize small businesses when we can. I am currently driving a 7 year old Saturn ION. One recall has been fixed. There is another. Still waiting on more info there. It IS time for a new car, but, I will tread carefully. It doesn't matter what I CAN afford, it's what I will buy. Low key, low profile. It's a town of around 30,000. too fancy of a car, and it can lead to a decline in business. People watch, and people gossip. We are super careful not to give them an opening. I'm not saying our way is perfect. But, it makes it easier. People will gossip about me. But, I try not to make it easy for them. It's all very premeditated, and sometimes a pain in the butt, but, it keeps consequences at bay. I hear what people say about 2 masonry contractors who have a flashier style. My husband goes so far as to by nearly the same vehicle every time he upgrades. Or as close as he can get. Odds are pretty good most people don't notice it's a new vehicle.
> 
> So, HL, or whomever that get backlash sometimes do get it because they aren't smart enough to stop talking. You know that old saying about it being better to be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt? Lots of businesses and celebs need to think about that a bit more.


I laughed in total agreement with you on this one. You are right on, one's personal beliefs should remain personal and separate from one's business. I wonder whether Mr. Green has a messiah complex.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Marindy said:


> I understand what you're saying about keeping a low profile when in business, but your concerns aren't about your religion. HL's owners have deeply held beliefs that they don't save for Sundays when at church. They know they'll lose some customers who are "offended," but others who respect or share those beliefs will shop there. With so much being said these days about greedy corporations, HL puts Almighty God above the Almighty Dollar.


Are you assuming all of this, judging them by your own feelings, or do you have documented evidence? You might want to do some research into the corporate holdings, including family investments in companies that produce birth control devices and drugs, before you accept the above as the total truth. Not much in this world is as it appears on the surface. How does one become a multimillionaire without being a seeker of money? It takes a lifetime commitment to amass a fortune of that size.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> Are you assuming all of this, judging them by your own feelings, or do you have documented evidence? You might want to do some research into the corporate holdings, including family investments in companies that produce birth control devices and drugs, before you accept the above as the total truth. Not much in this world is as it appears on the surface. How does one become a multimillionaire without being a seeker of money? It takes a lifetime commitment to amass a fortune of that size.


 :thumbup:


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## Marindy (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm sure some of my retirement funds are invested in companies that have policies that would offend my principles. Who has time to research every company one does business with? Politicians sometimes check into an opponent's portfolio in order to have a "gotcha" moment to discredit the opponent. Is this what some are doing to HL because they disagree with the owner's beliefs?

It's not a crime for businesses to make money as long as they don't cheat people. Some businesses are better at making money than others as in HL's case. We are a capitalist nation and, even with all its faults, capitalism has been the most successful economic system in elevating the standard of living for the masses than any other.

It may take most of a lifetime to amass a large fortune, but don't most of us work a lifetime to make money? Should those who are more successful at it be vilified? 

And while we've focused on HL, many other companies and organizations are affected by the ACA. Should the Catholic Church be told by the government they must pay for abortifacients or else pay exorbitant penalties? The Little Sisters of the Poor? Does a government have the right to do this? And think what our healthcare would be like if all the Christian hospitals, nursing homes, schools, etc. were forced to close because they couldn't pay the penalties.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Marindy said:


> I'm sure some of my retirement funds are invested in companies that have policies that would offend my principles. Who has time to research every company one does business with? Politicians sometimes check into an opponent's portfolio in order to have a "gotcha" moment to discredit the opponent. Is this what some are doing to HL because they disagree with the owner's beliefs?
> 
> It's not a crime for businesses to make money as long as they don't cheat people. Some businesses are better at making money than others as in HL's case. We are a capitalist nation and, even with all its faults, capitalism has been the most successful economic system in elevating the standard of living for the masses than any other.
> 
> ...


Food for thought, for sure. Unfortunately, too many can't be bothered to do the thinking for themselves, so your post will likely be either ignored or attacked. Thank you for trying to be a voice of reason in these unreasoning times.


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## Marindy (Oct 12, 2011)

You have also been a voice of reason. Unfortunately, I think you are right about people not thinking for themselves.


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## judymom53 (Feb 8, 2014)

Absolutely adorable blanket. This one and others you have made will be in your family until they are shreds, but in your familys memories forever-good job!


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## judymom53 (Feb 8, 2014)

Absolutely adorable blanket. This one and others you have made will be in your family until they are shreds, but in your familys memories forever-good job!


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## rderemer (Nov 13, 2012)

DonnieK said:


> I would stand up for my beliefs and my inner feelings. You won't go wrong in doing so.


Hobby Lobby owners are doing the same thing.


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## Lavender Liz (Oct 6, 2014)

Gerripho said:


> Ethics? Is it ethical to force someone to go against their deeply held beliefs before allowing them to run a business? Of the 20 FDA approved birth control pills, the owners had no objections to 16 of them. They believe the other 4 to cause abortions after conception and do not want to pay for those 4.
> 
> But the Corporation has invested 401K money and other company monies in companies that MANUFACTURE these contraceptives. This seems terribly hypocritical to me. I have never been in the HL store in our town and I never will. If enough people boycott a corp. it can make a difference. And the remarkes that one or two people not shopping at HL could cause a person to lose their job is not realistic.


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## Lavender Liz (Oct 6, 2014)

DonnieK said:


> I personally have been boycotting Hobby Lobby for years though I love the "I Love this yarn" "I love this Cotton" "I love this wool", but, I can find other yarns at garage sales, thrift shops, online, from sellers here on KP without having to sacrifice my beliefs. I have made Hobby Lobby "big guys" that I am boycotting and will continue to do so until they stop hiding behind their "religious beliefs" to further their own good. One person not buy from them may not matter, but one person telling 1,000's of other people can make a difference. If everyone would stop shopping at their stores for just one day, they might get the picture.
> I would stand up for my beliefs and my inner feelings. You won't go wrong in doing so.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Lavender Liz (Oct 6, 2014)

Shylinn said:


> My problem with HL is not their religious beliefs...It is the fact that they do not allow their employees to exercise their right, within the law, to follow their own religious beliefs without paying an amount that they cannot afford on the salary they receive. Find another job is just not possible in many of our towns. Abortion is legal here. If HL can choose which laws they will or will not support, why have any laws at all. HL can have their beliefs, just let me exercise mine without penalizing me for them.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## bobctwn65 (Jul 27, 2012)

no one can fix the problems of this world except God in his appointed time...


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## mh1953 (Aug 14, 2014)

Amen!


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## baileysmom (Aug 28, 2012)

jmcret05 said:


> Personally, I don't shop at places that don't treat their employees fairly, no matter what they are selling.
> 
> KnitPicks and several other places online have great sales from time to time. Elann.com has special prices on some really nice yarns.
> http://www.elann.com/commerce.web/product_list.aspx?catID=30&type=yarn
> ...


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## baileysmom (Aug 28, 2012)

jmcret05 said:


> Personally, I don't shop at places that don't treat their employees fairly, no matter what they are selling.
> 
> KnitPicks and several other places online have great sales from time to time. Elann.com has special prices on some really nice yarns.
> http://www.elann.com/commerce.web/product_list.aspx?catID=30&type=yarn
> ...


I love the yarn from KnitPicks, in fact, it is my go to for worsted weight


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## baileysmom (Aug 28, 2012)

jmcret05 said:


> Personally, I don't shop at places that don't treat their employees fairly, no matter what they are selling.
> 
> KnitPicks and several other places online have great sales from time to time. Elann.com has special prices on some really nice yarns.
> http://www.elann.com/commerce.web/product_list.aspx?catID=30&type=yarn
> ...


I love the yarn from KnitPicks, in fact, it is my go to for worsted weight and under $3.


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## Lavender Liz (Oct 6, 2014)

Marindy said:


> *[I'm sure some of my retirement funds are invested in companies that have policies that would offend my principles. Who has time to research every company one does business with? Politicians sometimes check into an opponent's portfolio in order to have a "gotcha" moment to discredit the opponent. Is this what some are doing to HL because they disagree with the owner's beliefs?
> 
> It's not a crime for businesses to make money as long as they don't cheat people. Some businesses are better at making money than others as in HL's case. We are a capitalist nation and, even with all its faults, capitalism has been the most successful economic system in elevating the standard of living for the masses than any other.
> .*


*

You don't choose which companies your funds are invested in. I"m sure a large company does choose where they invest.

It's not a crime, but it is hypocritical to invest in places that are supposed to be against your deeply held religious beliefs.*


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