# Help finding machine knit fish scale pattern



## Axlf1997

Good morning,

I found a really nice looking pattern that appears to be machine knit. I was wondering if anybody recognized it from a book, magazine etc. If anyone does recognize it or something similar to it, please let me know. All assistance is deeply appreciated. 

Regards,

Axlf1997


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## Nana Doreen

Hello and welcome from England. I can't help, but I am sure somebody on this site will be able to.. :-D :-D


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## KateWood

It's in Susan Gaugiliumi's book, "Hand Manipulated Stitches" Here's a topic with a picture to one of the knitters projects made with the stitch;
http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-68599-1.html


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## Axlf1997

Thanks very much for the tip, however, the dragon scales appear to be purled with knit stitches in the center of the raised areas (It may be difficult to see unless zoomed in upon). Whereas, the stitch you posted is knit throughout the entire raised section. Still, thank you so much for taking the time to even look! Do you have any ideas on how I could modify the stitch to make it match?

Regards,

Axlf1997


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## KateWood

This was the most similar stitch I could think of having had only a quick glance at your requested pattern.


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## Entity

That is different from the fish scale stitch in S. Guagliumi's book.

Here's the one you're looking for, below is the link. It was posted a couple of months ago at Alessandrina's website. You'd need to scroll down a little over midway. It's titled "A Swatch Experience". The first section is hand knitted, the 2nd part has a chart to use for machine knitting. Although, I would have revised it for machine knitting to make it more understandable. She had given written instruction on how to machine knit the pattern. http://alessandrina.com/2015/01/

If you still need a revised chart, let me know. It will take me sometime to get to it.


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## janetmk

Thank you for this thread, it's really good to get such texture and to be reminded that Alessandrina does such great stuff!


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## Axlf1997

Thank you so much for finding this for me, I am planning on making a scarf based on this swatch for a very close friend. I am forever indebted to you, this is exactly what I was looking for! Do you have any ideas on how I can eliminate/minimize the slight gap in the center of each "scale"?

Thanks,

Axlf1997


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## Entity

You're welcome.

Well, I thought I had an answer about the gap. However, looking at the stitch pattern posted by Alissandra, my thought may have not been correct.

I need to do a swatch before I can answer that question.

After doing more research on this stitch pattern, it looks like Alissandra's pattern may be slightly different than the one from the image you've posted.

At this link below is a dress made of the same stitch pattern as your the fabric on your image. If you scroll the page all the way down, you will see a close up of the front and back of the stich pattern. They look a bit different than those of Alissandra's. Like you, I see no gap on the scales for this pattern.

(humm... I'm not allowed to post this particular link). Let's see if I can break it down.
The link starts with "http://www (dot)"
then, it's "wholesale(the number 7)(dot)net/"
then, it's "western-style-fish-scale-styling-lace-hem-orange-knitting-dress_p17192.html"


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## Axlf1997

I have a theory, Is it possible that a central double decrease (pictured below) was used and that instead of having 20 columns in the repeat there are only 19? Or do you think that a more bulky yarn would compensate for the gaps, making them less visible (as seen in the original image dragon scales).

Edit: I have a close up picture of a garment with the stitch in question (more photos of the garment in the link below), I am having some difficulty identifying the center stitch. Tell me your thoughts.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Children-s-clothing-child-sweater-solid-color-child-cardigan-peter-pan-collar-fish-scales-knitted-sweater/32212716716.html

Regards,

Axlf1997


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## leanne17

Hi, I did a course with Bill King a couple of years ago, and this was one of the patterns that he taught us. It was easier than it looks, just a bit time consuming. But it looks lovely when finished. If you look online for Bill King patterns, I'm sure you will find it.


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## Tallie9

Looking at the clothing pics...It looks like they left a needle out-of-work on the left and right of each 'scale' and also a needle out-of work in the center of each 'scale'.....Then hand latched them up from the back...


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## Axlf1997

Hi Tallie,

I am somewhat new to machine knitting, is there a video to describe what you are speaking of, or better yet a way to hand knit the stitches you are describing. Thanks for your reply, I really appreciate it.

Regards,

Axlf1997


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## Tallie9

Axlf1997 said:


> Hi Tallie,
> I am somewhat new to machine knitting, is there a video to describe what you are speaking of, or better yet a way to hand knit the stitches you are describing. Thanks for your reply, I really appreciate it.
> Regards,
> Axlf1997


Did not realize that you are new to machines....I do not hand knit....There are videos that show how to hand latch a ribbing (when you don't have a ribber) ....but before I thoroughly confuse you....I am going to first experiment with this to make sure it is possible.....and get back to you...


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## Entity

Ok, I'm back and just did some more looking.

Axlf1997, your 2nd post of the pattern (pink & purple knittings) are actually slightly different shaping of the pattern than your original image (grey knitting).

The original pattern is more of a rectangular shape. Whereas, the pink & purple knittings are of diamond shape. The diamond shape is similar to the pattern on Alissandra's blog page.

The pattern on the Chinese website that I was trying to post (but had to break it up) is the same pattern as of your 1st image (grey knitting).

Here's the front & back pattern on the Chinese website:


Let's just take a look at the diamond-shape pattern. If you look at Alissandra's stitch chart, at the center of each scale you will see a k2tog and slip1,k1,psso. This is where the difference is between Alissandra's pattern and the pattern from your 2nd image (pink knitting).

I think that instead of the "k2tog and slip1,k1,psso", replace this with only k3tog on the chart. Then, it will eliminate the gap at the center and it will look more like the pink knitting pattern image.

I've been busy and haven't had time to do a swatch. I'll try to do it tomorrow and will report back.


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## Axlf1997

Thanks for the research,

I think you were right and that is a k3tog, that should eliminate those gaps. I don't have a knitting machine so I can't swatch the stitch, so when you have time post some pictures. Do you have any ideas about how to elongate the stitch like the one in the first pictures? Thanks again.


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## Entity

Axlf1997 said:


> Thanks for the research,
> 
> I think you were right and that is a k3tog, that should eliminate those gaps. I don't have a knitting machine so I can't swatch the stitch, so when you have time post some pictures...


Sorry, it's taking me more than a day. I didn't have much time yesterday. Nevertheless, I was able to do a small swatch. From the swatch, I can tell you the followings:

1) Alissandra's mini chart for machine knitting is not completed and it needs some modification.

2) The k3tog needs to be there and it's exactly how the pattern should be.



Axlf1997 said:


> Do you have any ideas about how to elongate the stitch like the one in the first pictures? Thanks again.


I think I do. I did a chart on it last night but haven't done a swatch to test out the chart.

Along the research of pattern 1 (your 1st image, grey knitting), I found out that there's 2 versions of that pattern.

1st version: The scales are more visual and not true scale pattern sush as the crochet crocodile or S. Guagliumi's fish scale patterns. the scales are attached but droop a little to give that fish scale look.

By the way, this is the same with the diamond shape fish scale pattern (your 2nd image, pink knitting).

2nd version: The scales are actually detached. Visually, they look like true scales. The pattern is similar to S. Guagliumi's fish scale pattern. Each scale has a round tip rather than a pointed tip as those of S. Guagliumi's pattern.

The 2nd version takes more work as it involves in putting stitches on hold.

Anyway, I need a day or more to get it done. I don't have a lot of time spending on knitting this week. I will post photos and charts when I get it done.


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## Entity

I ended up having more time to spend on this project today. I was able to complete the swatch.

1st Image below is my revised chart for machine knitting. If you compare with Alissandrina's mini-chart (http://alessandrina.com/2015/01/), you can see what were missing on her chart. Her mini-chart, although stated that it is for machine knitting, it's actually for hand knitting. If you're a member of Ravelry, you can see my explanation on hand knitting vs. machine knitting charts here: http://www.ravelry.com/discuss/machine-knitting/1348064/1576-1600#1593



Repeated section:



2nd and 3rd Images: The swatch. It is consisted of 2 sections. The bottom section is the diamond shape dragon scale pattern. It is also similar pattern to the pink knitting image that you've posted. The chart for this pattern is above.

The top section of the swatch is the long, a bit rectangular shape dragon scale pattern. This is similar pattern to your grey knitting image that you've posted.

Purl Side





Knit Side



And here's the chart for the long shape Dragon Scale pattern:



Repeated section:



If you want the scale to be longer, just repeat the 2 rows #14 & 15 from the "repeated section" chart as much as you desire.

I'm also posting a couple of snapshots from WIP for the swatch.





Notice how the shapes are straight and stretched out while it's on the machine. It's cause by the weights that are pulling the fabric. When you complete your piece and it's off from the machine, stretch the knitted fabric a few times lengthwise and widthwise. Doing this, it will redistribute the stitches more evenly. Let the knitted fabric rest over night. When blocking, don't stretch the knitted fabric too much or you will lose the scales.

Have fun knitting!

Oops, almost forgot to post chart symbol definition. Here it is...


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## janetmk

Thank you for spending time on this and sharing. It is a great pattern.


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## Axlf1997

Wow, your the best, I never expected to actually be able to reproduce the pattern. If I could repay you in some way I would. Thanks!

Regards,

Axlf1997


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## MKEtc.com

Thank you, this looks great. Will print and give it a try. I think this pattern would look nice applied to an edge of a boxy top or the like.


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## Nana Doreen

I don't do machine knitting, but I am seriously impressed with the amount of work you have put in. Well done!!! :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Entity

Thanks everyone. I'm glad I was able to help out.

I forgot to mentioned that for the swatch, I used a 2-ply yarn, 100% acrylic, on a standard gauge knitting machine, used tension 8. Tension 8 created loser stitches. If I used tension 6 or 7, it would have created a tighter and more slender pattern.

Thus, you may want to test this pattern out with different tension and see which you'd prefer.

By the way, here are some of the projects that I spotted on the internet using this pattern:
http://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=61239487
http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/32212716716/Children-s-clothing-child-sweater-solid-color-child-cardigan-peter-pan-collar-fish-scales-knitted-sweater.jpg_350x350.jpg
http://img04.taobaocdn.com/bao/uploaded/i4/T1kWiQXnxjXXbCUks9_104251.jpg
http://i01.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/685/390/722/722390685_715.jpg
http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/2005889753/Ladies_knitted_fish_scale_scarf_OEM.jpg
http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/32296011375_1/New-winter-South-Korea-Ma-Haimao-set-loose-head-fish-scale-font-b-pattern-b-font.jpg


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## Axlf1997

In the original photo, does it appear that there a drop stitches in between each scale? (Don't go through the trouble of swatching and re-charting).

Regards,

Axlf1997


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## Entity

Axlf1997 said:


> In the original photo, does it appear that there a drop stitches in between each scale? (Don't go through the trouble of swatching and re-charting).
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Axlf1997


Do you mean these (areas circled)?



If so, yes, they're there on the swatch & chart.


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## Tallie9

Entity.....Thankyou for the samples and charts....Alot of work ...and most appreciated!

After the last row.....the knitted piece could be turned with a garter bar and rehung.....Then she could latch the eyelet bars from bottom to top.....


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## Entity

Tallie9 said:


> After the last row.....the knitted piece could be turned with a garter bar and rehung.....Then she could latch the eyelet bars from bottom to top.....


Did you meant to create a scale? If so, there's no need to. The pattern automatically creates it as you can see it on the top portion of my swatch.

If not, then, I didn't understand your comment.


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## Tallie9

Entity said:


> Did you meant to create a scale? If so, there's no need to. The pattern automatically creates it as you can see it on the top portion of my swatch.
> If not, then, I didn't understand your comment.


A comment made by the Axlf1997 on page one was...
"....Do you have any ideas on how I can eliminate/minimize the slight gap in the center of each "scale"?"
That was the reason for my comment.....Sorry for the confusion ....my camera isn't working...so I cannot show her what it looks like...


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## Entity

Tallie9 said:


> A comment made by the Axlf1997 on page one was...
> "....Do you have any ideas on how I can eliminate/minimize the slight gap in the center of each "scale"?"
> That was the reason for my comment.....Sorry for the confusion ....my camera isn't working...so I cannot show her what it looks like...


Ah yes, we discussed about it. By replacing with a k3tog, it closes the gap at the center of the scale. It showed on my swatch and the revised chart.


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## Tallie9

Entity said:


> Ah yes, we discussed about it. By replacing with a k3tog, it closes the gap at the center of the scale. It showed on my swatch and the revised chart.


I think she was referring to the spaces in between the scales..


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## Entity

Tallie9 said:


> I think she was referring to the spaces in between the scales..


Uh, no. It's not _between_ the scales. She meant and I quoted: 


Axlf1997 said:


> ...the _center of *each*_ "scale"?


She was referring to Alessandrina's swatches when she asked the question. Alessandrina's swatches & chart have spacings at the center of each scale.

Basically, she wanted the same as the 1st posted image, the grey knitted project.


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## Axlf1997

Hi everyone,

Sorry for all the confusion, Entity was right. In the beginning I was trying to eliminate/reduce the gap on each "scale".

By the way, I wanted to point out that I am an 18 year old male (People on forums sometimes assume that I am a female just because I knit). I am in no anyway offended, it actually gave me a good laugh! :XD: 

Regards,

Axlf1997


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## Tallie9

OOPS!!.....Entity..Axlf1997....Sorry to both of you...I misinterpreted what I read....
......and Axlf1997....no gender offense intended...There are quite a few male knitters on here...


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## Entity

Tallie9 said:


> OOPS!!.....Entity..Axlf1997....Sorry to both of you...I misinterpreted what I read....


No problem.



Axlf1997 said:


> ...By the way, I wanted to point out that I am an 18 year old male (People on forums sometimes assume that I am a female just because I knit). I am in no anyway offended, it actually gave me a good laugh! :XD:
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Axlf1997


LOL, somehow, I had a feeling you weren't a female. I'm not surprised. Good to know! Hey, there's even famous male knitters such as Kaffee Fassett. He has talent with color combination. And, here on this forum, there's John. He no longer machine knitting but does his share with contributing on his experience and taught us many things. He's now into crochet. Anyway, welcome! I hope you'll like maching knitting as we are. It's addictive 

By the way, did I answered your question on page 2 about "drop stitches between each scale"?


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## Axlf1997

Hi Entity,

Yes, you did answer my question about the dropped stitches. What is your opinion about the yarn in the original photo? Do you think it is acrylic, wool, cotton etc. ? You accurately charted the design, however, I wish to use a yarn that is comparable to the one in the original photo. Tell me your thoughts. 

On an unrelated note, I started a new thread about reverse engineering cable and aran motives (hand knitting). You seem to be very knowledgeable and dedicated to machine knitting, and we could certainly use your insight in the aforementioned thread. If you are interested it is called "Reverse Engineering Cable/Aran Motifs". Thanks again!

Regards,

Axlf1997


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## Entity

First of all, I need to ask. Do you have a knitting machine? You mentioned earlier that you didn't have one to make a swatch. I wasn't cleared as to you didn't have one at the time or you didn't have one at all. 

Now, if you do have one, what's the maker & model? That will dictate alot whether you can use the same thickness of yarn or not. Btw, looks like a #4, bulky to me. I can't be sure by just looking at a photo image.

As to what the yarn is, it could be a mix of different materials or cotton. Again, I can't tell just by looking but maybe someone else here with more experience could.

I'm not as experienced as you think. I have a good knowledge on lace knitting designs and charting but may not be as knowledgeable in other areas of machine knitting. As for hand knitting, I know some but only from a viewing point. I can't do hand knitting due to a disability. Thus, I have no experience with it. Nevertheless, I will take a look at that thread. Thanks for the invite.


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## Axlf1997

No, I don't have a knitting machine. However, I assumed that since it (the grey dragon scale pattern) was mass-produced it must have been machine knit. I was planning on using the corresponding chart to hand knit the stitch. I am not super interested in machine knitting, that being said, I would like to learn the basics of machine knitting so as to become a more well-rounded knitter.

Regards,

Axlf1997


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## Entity

Axlf1997 said:


> No, I don't have a knitting machine. However, I assumed that since it (the grey dragon scale pattern) was mass-produced it must have been machine knit. I was planning on using the corresponding chart to hand knit the stitch. I am not super interested in machine knitting, that being said, I would like to learn the basics of machine knitting so as to become a more well-rounded knitter.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Axlf1997


Ah. You should have been more clear from the beginning. The charts I made were designed for machine knitting. Hand knitting charts for this pattern are different.


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## JuliaD

You're a genius. Thanks for your awesome work!


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## malindacampbell

This is amazing. I've been looking for the pattern everywhere for months now. But, I'm not a machine knitter:-(, just a hand knitter. Does anyone know if it's possible to knit the stitch by hand? Would I just follow the same pattern as a machine knitting pattern? Does the square with the "O" mean yarn over?


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## Maryknits513

malindacampbell said:


> This is amazing. I've been looking for the pattern everywhere for months now. But, I'm not a machine knitter:-(, just a hand knitter. Does anyone know if it's possible to knit the stitch by hand? Would I just follow the same pattern as a machine knitting pattern? Does the square with the "O" mean yarn over?


Yes, the square with the "O" means yarn over.


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## Entity

malindacampbell said:


> This is amazing. I've been looking for the pattern everywhere for months now. But, I'm not a machine knitter:-(, just a hand knitter. Does anyone know if it's possible to knit the stitch by hand? Would I just follow the same pattern as a machine knitting pattern? Does the square with the "O" mean yarn over?


Yes, you can follow the charts I did. Just replace the \ or the / symbol as an empty block which normally means a stockinette or purl stitch for hand knitting. For machine knitting, it simply mean to transfer the stitch to the next needle depending which direction the symbol is leaning toward to.

Glad my work didn't go in vain and could help you.


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## malindacampbell

Thank you so much. I'm attempting it now.


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## malindacampbell

Ok... so I attempted and failed. If I'm hand kitting, I have a right side facing then I turn my work and I have a wrong side facing. Sooo, if I'm not knitting in the round, can I still do this pattern?


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## Maryknits513

malindacampbell said:


> Ok... so I attempted and failed. If I'm hand kitting, I have a right side facing then I turn my work and I have a wrong side facing. Sooo, if I'm not knitting in the round, can I still do this pattern?


Looking at the chart, odd numbers rows are SS, lace transfers are on even-numbered rows. So if you purl across the row on all odd numbered rows, it should work.


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## 148090

Hi

Susan Gualiami does a section on fish scales in her book. See Photos. There is also a DVD.


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## Entity

PY said:


> ... Susan Gualiami does a section on fish scales in her book. See Photos. There is also a DVD.


A few years ago, I used S. Guagliumi's fish scale and created a felted handbag. Each scale that I knitted was about 5 times larger than the pattern in her book. Here's what it looked like: http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-85042-1.html

However, S. Guagliumi's fish scale stitch pattern is totally different from what we're discussing here. The back/purl side also look different.

By the way, due to copyright issue, please be more careful about posting any pattern information inside the book. Ms. Guagliumi is still active with publishing knitting books.


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## 148090

Thank you for the advice. I am aware that Susan is still publishing and the photos were sent out of goodwill for you to see the book cover and what the scales looked like.


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## dmd

Let me tell how excited I am that someone was able to decipher this pattern. I have been looking for it for months and no one was willing to share the details of it. My question is how would the pattern read with increases/decreases to make a mermaid tail blanket?


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## dmd

One more quick question. I am not a machine knitter but would like to at least try. What machine would you recommend?


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## Azzara

You would need to find a pattern for mermaid tail blanket that you like and then use the stitch pattern discussed here to knit it. There are several patterns available in magazines and online.
The machine I recommend for a new knitter is always the Silver Reed LK 150.


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