# Fish Lips Kiss TOE



## LaLaWa (Jun 20, 2011)

Just wanted to share how much I'm enjoying using the Fish Lips Kiss Heel as a toe-up sock toe. Just cast on half your stitches with a provisional cast on (I like the crochet cast on directly onto the needle) and then it can be done with two dpns (just two, not three or four), or with magic loop, or with two circs. When you're done with the toe, pick up your cast on loops and you then have all your stitches and can complete the rest of the sock on a 9 inch or 12 inch circ (or magic loop, or two circs, or dpns, whatever you prefer). No fuss, no muss, no additional ends to weave in. And most importantly, no counting stitches or worrying about figuring out where you were if you have to set it down (because the stitches make it visibly obvious exactly where you were in the process). The only trick to it is knowing how many stitches to cast on, but that's not hard if you've made the heel before or you have a standard number of stitches you generally use for socks.

I made one going top down as well, but that involved doing the Kitchener stitch on 72 stitches (on the underside of the foot 36 stitches each side), and was far more work than it is to pick up a provisional cast on by going toe-up.

It's a beautiful great fitting toe. Those of you who like it as a heel should try it as a toe if you're not happy with whatever toe-up toe you are currently using. I just can't get over how wonderful it is to be able to be interrupted while doing a heel or a toe and having it be no big deal at all.


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## pjstitches (Jan 26, 2011)

thank you for sharing this! I bought the Fish Lips Heel pattern yesterday... pj


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## LaLaWa (Jun 20, 2011)

The entire sock, including the toe, can be done on a single 9 inch or 12 inch circular needle; not sure if I made that clear. You just knit back and forth on the needle until the toe is done and then pick up the provisional cast on stitches and go in the round from there on out.


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## christiliz (Dec 20, 2011)

Thank you for sharing the info!


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## mopgenorth (Nov 20, 2011)

I absolutely love the FLK heel. Although I have used a standard short row heel for the toe before, it never occurred to me that the FLK heel could be used too. I can't wait to try it! Thanks for sharing your experience and instructions!

Here is the link for the FLK heel on Ravelry for those who are not familiar with it! It really is genius!

http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/fish-lips-kiss-heel


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## run4fittness (May 22, 2011)

thanks for the info!


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## sbeth53 (Mar 29, 2011)

This sounds interesting...can't wait to try it!


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## mtnmama67 (Dec 16, 2011)

What a great idea for the toe also!!Will have to give this a try. Thanks for taking your time to share.


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## Marvelouz (Oct 21, 2013)

Have you tried Judy's magic cast on for toe-up socks? It is cast on to both needles at once and there is absolutely no seam. You are automatically knitting in the round, and all you have to do is increase on each end of both needles until you have the width you need. Super slick.


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## LaLaWa (Jun 20, 2011)

I've done a variety of toe-up cast-on techniques, including Judy's Magic Cast on, and Turkish, and Figure 8 etc. But that type of toe, where you cast-on a few stitches and then increase every-other round, has just never been my favorite method. Every time I went toe-up I didn't like it and ended up going back to cuff-down. I enjoy the Fish Lips Kiss Toe because I have all my stitches, I'm not increasing to get to my stitch count. 

I've done other short-row toes too in the past, like the Sherman Toe, but like the Fish Lips Kiss Heel (used as a toe) much better - no counting.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

LaLaWa said:


> Just wanted to share how much I'm enjoying using the Fish Lips Kiss Heel as a toe-up sock toe. Just cast on half your stitches with a provisional cast on (I like the crochet cast on directly onto the needle) and then it can be done with two dpns (just two, not three or four), or with magic loop, or with two circs. When you're done with the toe, pick up your cast on loops and you then have all your stitches and can complete the rest of the sock on a 9 inch or 12 inch circ (or magic loop, or two circs, or dpns, whatever you prefer). No fuss, no muss, no additional ends to weave in. And most importantly, no counting stitches or worrying about figuring out where you were if you have to set it down (because the stitches make it visibly obvious exactly where you were in the process). The only trick to it is knowing how many stitches to cast on, but that's not hard if you've made the heel before or you have a standard number of stitches you generally use for socks.
> 
> I made one going top down as well, but that involved doing the Kitchener stitch on 72 stitches (on the underside of the foot 36 stitches each side), and was far more work than it is to pick up a provisional cast on by going toe-up.
> 
> It's a beautiful great fitting toe. Those of you who like it as a heel should try it as a toe if you're not happy with whatever toe-up toe you are currently using. I just can't get over how wonderful it is to be able to be interrupted while doing a heel or a toe and having it be no big deal at all.


Your description for starting toe up socks sounds so much harder than using Judy's Magic Cast On, which I have been using since I started knitting toe up socks. It works beautifully, no ends to weave in ... since I knit the tail into the first few rounds of the toe... continue increasing every other round until I have enough stitches to just fit over my toes. ... then continue knitting until just even in length to reach mid point on my ankle bone... then do the Fish Lips Kiss Heel... Each and every time, I have a sock that fits perfectly.
Jane


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## LaLaWa (Jun 20, 2011)

JTM said:


> Your description for starting toe up socks sounds so much harder than using Judy's Magic Cast On, which I have been using since I started knitting toe up socks. It works beautifully, no ends to weave in ... since I knit the tail into the first few rounds of the toe... continue increasing every other round until I have enough stitches to just fit over my toes. ... then continue knitting until just even in length to reach mid point on my ankle bone... then do the Fish Lips Kiss Heel... Each and every time, I have a sock that fits perfectly.
> Jane


I like the look of this toe, and the fit, and it's fun to knit. So I'm enjoying it. I've always liked the look of my decreases more than the look of my increases, and with this method there are neither increases nor decreases, just invisible short-row shaping.


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## LaLaWa (Jun 20, 2011)

I wouldn't use it for a cuff-down sock again. But toe-up it's super easy, no grafting, no fiddly start, just cast on half, do the toe, unzip the provisional cast on and pick up the other half and away you go in the round.


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## Mevbb (Sep 5, 2011)

mopgenorth said:


> I absolutely love the FLK heel. Although I have used a standard short row heel for the toe before, it never occurred to me that the FLK heel could be used too. I can't wait to try it! Thanks for sharing your experience and instructions!
> 
> Here is the link for the FLK heel on Ravelry for those who are not familiar with it! It really is genius!
> 
> http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/fish-lips-kiss-heel


Just bought this. Seems interesting.


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## LaLaWa (Jun 20, 2011)

Oh I bet you'll like it! If you've made socks before, you can just skip to actual heel part of the pattern if you like. Let us know how it goes for you!


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

LaLaWa said:


> Oh I bet you'll like it! If you've made socks before, you can just skip to actual heel part of the pattern if you like. Let us know how it goes for you!


That is exactly what I have done. 
Finally made the template last week, after knitting at least 2 dozen pairs of socks with the FLKheel. When I used it on one of my WIP pairs... I noticed a split stitch (only 1 of the plys was caught in the stitch) ... it was somewhere more than 25 rounds back. DARN!!!!! then I knit around until I was just above the column where the darn split stitch was... and dropped the stitch and took it all the way back to the split... grabbed my smallest crochet hook (using size 1 US needles on that pair of socks) and started with the stitch below the split ... picked up all the plies of the yarn and got the repair made. The longest correction I ever had to make...but I did do it the "right" way... rather than ignore it...or try to weave in a second piece of yarn to make a "patch"...
Jane


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## TNKnitter (Jan 3, 2012)

Somehow, I just can't wrap my head around using the FLK heel method for the toe. I LOVE the heel, so seems like I could understand how to do the toe. I do toe-up, magic loop, 2 at a time. Could someone give me some hints to make my old brain catch this?


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## LaLaWa (Jun 20, 2011)

TNKnitter said:


> Somehow, I just can't wrap my head around using the FLK heel method for the toe. I LOVE the heel, so seems like I could understand how to do the toe. I do toe-up, magic loop, 2 at a time. Could someone give me some hints to make my old brain catch this?


Sure, take a look at a pair of socks you have. Starting at the base of the toe you're going to cast on those stitches onto waste yarn so you can pick them up again when it's time. So with half your total stitches cast-on, you're going to go "up the mountain". Then when you're at the top you're going to do the boomerang row and then work your way back down the mountain (which is the other side of the toe). When you're done, on your needles you only have the back stitches, so you just pick up the front stitches from your provisional cast-on and then you can start going around and around on all your stitches.


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## LaLaWa (Jun 20, 2011)

and when I say "back stitches", it doesn't at all mean you have to use that side as the back of the sock. You have your choice. Also I keep at least one stitch marker at the side of the toe stitches where I left off, so I know exactly where to divide for the heel when it's time for that.


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## TNKnitter (Jan 3, 2012)

Thank you! I am thinking about this. I think it is beginning to click.


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## Irish knitter (Mar 29, 2011)

I also bought the fish lips heel yesterday. Will try this for the toe.....just remember I am the "challenged" KPer...


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## gma11331 (Oct 18, 2011)

I'd like to try that for the toe too as I find casting on with any of the methods for toe up "messy." I assume you just follow the fish lips pattern as written for the heel and let it work itself out...and then I'll see (I hope). I've done the heel before so that's not new.


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## Marvelouz (Oct 21, 2013)

gma11331 said:


> I'd like to try that for the toe too as I find casting on with any of the methods for toe up "messy." I assume you just follow the fish lips pattern as written for the heel and let it work itself out...and then I'll see (I hope). I've done the heel before so that's not new.


If you don't like that method, try Judy's magic cast-on for toe-up socks. You just use her method to cast-on for 10 or 12 stitches then increase on each side until the toe fits to the pinky. You are automatically knitting in the round with no seam and no tail to work in if you knit the tail into the second or third row. This works really well with the fish-lips-kiss method for making socks that fit each foot since some feet are wider than others.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

Marvelouz said:


> If you don't like that method, try Judy's magic cast-on for toe-up socks. You just use her method to cast-on for 10 or 12 stitches then increase on each side until the toe fits to the pinky. You are automatically knitting in the round with no seam and no tail to work in if you knit the tail into the second or third row. This works really well with the fish-lips-kiss method for making socks that fit each foot since some feet are wider than others.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: 
This is my preferred method for toe up socks. 
Size 1 needle I usually start with 12 stitches... 1.5 or 2 usually start with 10. I wear a size 9 shoe and do have a fairly wide foot as well.
Jane


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## mzspaz61 (Dec 9, 2011)

There is promise of a fish lips kiss toe pattern eventually. I have read enough here and on Raverly:Sox Therapy to be totally confused. I have the pattern for the heel. I have also seen it suggested that I should just do it instead of trying to figure it out. I have done dozen of socks using Liat Gat's knitting superstar instructions. The twisted stitches look easy enough..


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## TNKnitter (Jan 3, 2012)

I used Lait's instructions for my first socks, too, but I like the FLK heel better. I am not really crazy about how it looks OFF the foot, but for my foot, it is perfect and easy to do.
I haven't figured out how to do the toe, as others here have. Maybe the Sox Therapy gal will come up with directions for the toe.


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## gillyc (Jul 9, 2012)

LaLaWa said:


> I wouldn't use it for a cuff-down sock again. But toe-up it's super easy, no grafting, no fiddly start, just cast on half, do the toe, unzip the provisional cast on and pick up the other half and away you go in the round.


I am trying this at present. When I picked up the stitches from the provisional cast on I did not have the right number of stitches, I was one short. I frogged it to start again before remembering that this is to be expected. I have now started again. I have provisionally cast on an extra stitch and propose starting my first twin stitch on the third stitch from the end on row 1. Do the FLK experts agree with this?


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## LaLaWa (Jun 20, 2011)

gillyc said:


> I am trying this at present. When I picked up the stitches from the provisional cast on I did not have the right number of stitches, I was one short. I frogged it to start again before remembering that this is to be expected. I have now started again. I have provisionally cast on an extra stitch and propose starting my first twin stitch on the third stitch from the end on row 1. Do the FLK experts agree with this?


Yes, that sounds right to me. I hope your project is going well.


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## gillyc (Jul 9, 2012)

LaLaWa said:


> Yes, that sounds right to me. I hope your project is going well.


Thanks for the prompt reply.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

gillyc said:


> I am trying this at present. When I picked up the stitches from the provisional cast on I did not have the right number of stitches, I was one short. I frogged it to start again before remembering that this is to be expected. I have now started again. I have provisionally cast on an extra stitch and propose starting my first twin stitch on the third stitch from the end on row 1. Do the FLK experts agree with this?


Give Judy's Magic Cast On a try when knitting toe up socks. And naturally the FLKHeel is perfect with the toe up socks.
Jane


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## gillyc (Jul 9, 2012)

JTM said:


> Give Judy's Magic Cast On a try when knitting toe up socks. And naturally the FLKHeel is perfect with the toe up socks.
> Jane


That is what I have used before and did not like the corners produced. Also I kept forgetting which row I was on for the increases. I have also tried a rounded toe. 
I really like the simplicity of the FLK toe. The only thing I have against it is that the stripes do not go around the toe.


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## LaLaWa (Jun 20, 2011)

gillyc said:


> That is what I have used before and did not like the corners produced. Also I kept forgetting which row I was on for the increases. I have also tried a rounded toe.
> I really like the simplicity of the FLK toe. The only thing I have against it is that the stripes do not go around the toe.


That's why I like it too, especially the part where I can set it down at any point and know exactly where I was when I pick it up again.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

gillyc said:


> That is what I have used before and did not like the corners produced. Also I kept forgetting which row I was on for the increases. I have also tried a rounded toe.
> I really like the simplicity of the FLK toe. The only thing I have against it is that the stripes do not go around the toe.


I got corners only when I cast on less than 12/13 stitches (I always cast on an even number and odd number of stitches for my toe up socks... that way I always know which side is which) 
Now that I use a larger number of cast on stitches...the toe is pretty rounded with no corners.
Jane


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## gillyc (Jul 9, 2012)

JTM said:


> I got corners only when I cast on less than 12/13 stitches (I always cast on an even number and odd number of stitches for my toe up socks... that way I always know which side is which)
> Now that I use a larger number of cast on stitches...the toe is pretty rounded with no corners.
> Jane


I cast on 18 and increased to 80. Perhaps I should have cast on more?


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## Sanibean (Apr 11, 2013)

I was thinking about trying the FLK for my heel, thinking it had to work, since Very Pink's short row heel works very well for toe up socks. Well one sock half way done now, so I'm giving this a try next pair. Love the FLK heel.


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## FSouza1948 (Mar 25, 2018)

I just finished my second flk heel and will be working my way up the leg of my third pair of socks (the easy part), but will soon start a fourth pair and would like to try this method for the toe and you seem to be the only one who even suggests it much less has done it. Could you explain the details of how to to the flk technique for the toe. My plan will be to use provisional cast on (first time for that too) and do one sock toe until all stitches are on, then do the second one, and then transfer both to a circular to do the two together as a toe up pair since that seems to be the only way I can remember the number of rows. I had a little bit of trouble still with the flk heel corners, but I am still finding it to be the easiest method I have found to do a heel to make it smooth and I don't like the look of the gusseted heel I used on my first sock. I am bound and determined to get good at making socks and now consider it a challenge to teach myself what I think should be something simple ( have made numerous sweaters and hats and even an Aran vest, but this is making me crazy!)


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## LaLaWa (Jun 20, 2011)

You need to know your the number of stitches you want for the foot of your sock ahead of time, probably the same number you have used in the past on a completed pair that fit. Using waste yarn, do a provisional cast on of half that number of stitches, I like this method: https://www.purlsoho.com/create/provisional-cast-on-video/ Once you have those done in waste yarn, knit across them using your project yarn. Then start the FLK heel pattern at the "Build First Half of the Heel" section. Just follow the pattern from there as normal, through the boomerang, through the second half of building the toe, nothing really changes. When you're done you will have one side of your sock on your needle, and then you unzip the waste yarn and pickup the stitches waiting there for the other side and start working in the round for the foot of your sock. This row is the only part that's a little fiddly, because you have to try to neaten-up the end stitches a little bit from where you had the provisional cast on - just pull the yarn tail to tighten-up any of the first few stitches if they have become loose.

It's really not the easiest of fastest method, but I like the way it looks. If I'm just banging out a pair of socks, I'm more likely to do Turkish cast-on, the way Cat Bordhi does it, where you use the ball yarn and the tail yarn at the same time to double the stitches right away 



 I generally cast on 8, which doubles to 16 per side, and then I do normal toe-up increases (a make-one, or a knit-front-and-back, in the 2nd stitch and the 2nd-to-the-last stitch on each side alternating with a plain knit row) until I am at my stitch count.

Good luck with your socks, I know you'll get the hang of it!!


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