# L.O.L.L.. #6



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Surprises drive me more wild than usual, and the link gives me nuttink. Help!!



Poor Purl said:


> Damemary, get over to www.Google.com . There's a nice surprise for you.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Give me a warrior over a clipper any day, win or lose.



alcameron said:


> OK, so my Warriors lost last night, but they represent a good organization, unlike the opposition


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I suggest we all develop memory problems and forget she/he/it exists.



alcameron said:


> Are we taking bets on how long it'll take for her to visit other threads?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I see nothing wrong. dd is on open forum therefore open to all. If rules have changed, notice should be given.



SQM said:


> After her church service, we should see her making her comeback. We must put out the welcome mat with no skid proof backing on it.
> 
> Country Bumpkin has been so cruel to me on Denim and Dentures. And I have been on my best behavior there, even when the Master Baiter, CB, tried to bait me with a link to a Convert the Jews site. I posted a list of Christians that converted to Judaism site. CB said she would report me to Admin for being on their site. I hope I get the Ostrich.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Open a new topic and let us know. We've got gardeners, bakers, chefs, nature enthusiasts, world travellers. And I predict it will be quite interesting.



SQM said:


> yeah but I loved their gardening tales and their lives in the Heartland.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Lilies.



SQM said:


> Gorgeous Al. Are they tulips, lilies??????


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

the picture on search page? Do I google something special?



Poor Purl said:


> Just go to Google. Today is a special day, and Google is celebrating it.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> Cream Cheese and Cheese Whiz are gourmet items in the heartland. Plus these cheeses are soft and not a challenge to their dentures.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> None of this is happening by accident. I'm sure it's all carefully planned. How will we develop an aristocracy (totally NOT based on merit) if we don't have a servant class to take care of them?


I agree with you, Poor Purl! I think they are in the process of eliminating the middle class. They want two classes; them and the workers!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> After her church service, we should see her making her comeback. We must put out the welcome mat with no skid proof backing on it.
> 
> Country Bumpkin has been so cruel to me on Denim and Dentures. And I have been on my best behavior there, even when the Master Baiter, CB, tried to bait me with a link to a Convert the Jews site. I posted a list of Christians that converted to Judaism site. CB said she would report me to Admin for being on their site. I hope I get the Ostrich.


I don't think she was trying to bait you. I think it was more of a celebration of conversion. Christians believe that redemption comes through the blood of CHRIST. They are happy when someone is saved. You don't have to agree with them but should understand what they believe to understand their motives.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> It's best to stay away, I think. Nobody here will try to convert you to anything or chide you for being less than charming. If you have innocuous topics to introduce here, go ahead.


JESUS told his followers to spread the news. They're only doing what they're admonished to do. I dont think theyre trying to convert you. They're only saying what comes natural to them. That doesn't make it right or wrong, its just who they are. Everyone should be free to be who they are, without criticism, including you!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> How beautiful. Are they yours?
> 
> All I ever see on D&D are recipes for things made with cream cheese. What is their obsession with cream cheese, which is definitely neither a health food nor a gourmet item?


In an earlier post, someone asked for recipes with cream cheese. That's why they're all posting cream cheese recipes. No obsession.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Cream Cheese and Cheese Whiz are gourmet items in the heartland. Plus these cheeses are soft and not a challenge to their dentures.


I like neither cream cheese nor cheese whiz! Yuk!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't think she was trying to bait you. I think it was more of a celebration of conversion. Christians believe that redemption comes through the blood of CHRIST. They are happy when someone is saved. You don't have to agree with them but should understand what they believe to understand their motives.


Baloney.

She was baiting me. She was the nastiest of all on my visits to D and D. It's fine albeit a bit rude to talk to a Jewish person about conversion unless they seek it out. Christians are 1-2 billion strong and Jews are about 12-14 million strong. CB does not need me.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

My boyfriend, Robert Reich writes about proposed legislation in California which would base corporate taxes on a ratio comparing a typical worker's pay with the CEO's pay. If the CEO makes 400 times that of the typical worker the corporate tax rate would reflect that with a higher tax rate, and if the CEO"s pay was just 25 times the typical worker's, the corporate tax rate would be much lower. Interesting concept.

http://robertreich.org/post/83456610643b


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Baloney.
> 
> She was baiting me. She was the nastiest of all on my visits to D and D. It's fine albeit a bit rude to talk to a Jewish person about conversion unless they seek it out. Christians are 1-2 billion strong and Jews are about 12-14 million strong. CB does not need me.


 :thumbup:


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't think she was trying to bait you. I think it was more of a celebration of conversion. Christians believe that redemption comes through the blood of CHRIST. They are happy when someone is saved. You don't have to agree with them but should understand what they believe to understand their motives.


Coming from CB it's hypocritical, though. I've heard her and her ilk claim many times to "love" Jews. Funny kind of love, that, if it compels one to immediately try to change a basic tenet of the love-object's faith.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> JESUS told his followers to spread the news. They're only doing what they're admonished to do. I dont think theyre trying to convert you. They're only saying what comes natural to them. That doesn't make it right or wrong, its just who they are. Everyone should be free to be who they are, without criticism, including you!


If I don't want to hear it, and I tell you I don't want to hear it, then that does make it wrong. You (general) are only doing it to save your own souls. Wrong! 
:twisted:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Baloney.
> 
> She was baiting me. She was the nastiest of all on my visits to D and D. It's fine albeit a bit rude to talk to a Jewish person about conversion unless they seek it out. Christians are 1-2 billion strong and Jews are about 12-14 million strong. CB does not need me.


Why do you think she was talking to you in particular? I agree that she's not been very nice to you on d&p but I think she has a hard time letting go of past grievances. I think that it goes both ways. You're not being very nice when you run over here and bad mouth them. Why do you expect kindness when you have none to share over here? I think that things have deteriorated to the point of both sides looking for grievances. When I posted about the money changers, you accused me of blaming or criticizing Jews. The comment was in reference to bankers, not Jews. I only wish that people could carry on discussion without it devolving into personal attacks! Not all things are meant to be taken personally. Some are only comments. Please don't take offense at my comment as none was intended.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> My boyfriend, Robert Reich writes about proposed legislation in California which would base corporate taxes on a ratio comparing a typical worker's pay with the CEO's pay. If the CEO makes 400 times that of the typical worker the corporate tax rate would reflect that with a higher tax rate, and if the CEO"s pay was just 25 times the typical worker's, the corporate tax rate would be much lower. Interesting concept.
> 
> http://robertreich.org/post/83456610643b


How do you feel about a flat tax, no deductions? If you made hardly anything, you'd pay hardly anything..if you made a lot, you'd pay a lot.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> How do you feel about a flat tax, no deductions? If you made hardly anything, you'd pay hardly anything..if you made a lot, you'd pay a lot.


Flat tax would never fly in any of the parties while the 1% is in charge.

Money lenders during the Temple period were Jews since there were no Christian yet. I heard a lecture about banking during this time and the system was very kind - I think debts were absolved every few number of years.

I am fond of you Neb. You actually belong on both sides of the fence - you are a devout woman with great economical sense.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Coming from CB it's hypocritical, though. I've heard her and her ilk claim many times to "love" Jews. Funny kind of love, that, if it compels one to immediately try to change a basic tenet of the love-object's faith.


Try to put yourself in their place. If you were taught that your GOD wanted you to go out and spread the news, would you do what GOD wanted, or what other people wanted? They've been taught not to worship man but to worship GOD. Because your views are different doesn't mean that theirs should be. And if you don't believe in GOD, why would it bother you? You don't think that people should proselytize, therefore you shouldn't do it. But those who think they should, deserve to make their own decisions also. You are free to ignore them but you're not free to stop them. And why insult them for making their own choice, just as you do?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Many Jews don't view Christianity as Good News since they have been trying to kill us for countless years.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Flat tax would never fly in any of the parties while the 1% is in charge.
> 
> Money lenders during the Temple period were Jews since there were no Christian yet. I heard a lecture about banking during this time and the system was very kind - I think debts were absolved every few number of years.
> 
> I am fond of you Neb. You actually belong on both sides of the fence - you are a devout woman with great economical sense.


I agree a flat tax will never fly. Just trying to see what people think about it.

I don't think that bankers were ever kind. I think they take advantage of the less fortunate. And I think their religion matters not. And what was especially offensive about the money changers in JESUS'S time, was that they were doing it in the temple,the house of GOD! In that time debts were supposed to be released after seven years. Every seventh year was a year of rest. Farmers did not plant in the seventh year etc... Kind of a reset, to my way of thinking.

Thanks for the compliment. I'm looking for things we have in common. I believe that if you only talk with people who agree with you you will never learn anything.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> How do you feel about a flat tax, no deductions? If you made hardly anything, you'd pay hardly anything..if you made a lot, you'd pay a lot.


I don't know anything about the flat tax, but it sounds as though it isn't fair to people who make little money. Would everything be taxed including capital gains, dividends, etc.? What about loopholes? Would they be gone? What about stashing income offshore? I'd have to read up on it.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Nebraska - you are a smart woman. I think the Temple was more than a house of worship but better biblical scholars would know more. Anyway, there are nicer passages to pick from I am sure. How about the Song of Songs to spice things up here?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Many Jews don't view Christianity as Good News since they have been trying to kill us for countless years.


Ahh! As I've said before: not everyone who calls themselves a Christian, is! True Christians would never try to kill the Jews because they know that the Jews are GOD'S chosen people!!!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree a flat tax will never fly. Just trying to see what people think about it.
> 
> I don't think that bankers were ever kind. I think they take advantage of the less fortunate. And I think their religion matters not. And what was especially offensive about the money changers in JESUS'S time, was that they were doing it in the temple,the house of GOD! In that time debts were supposed to be released after seven years. Every seventh year was a year of rest. Farmers did not plant in the seventh year etc... Kind of a reset, to my way of thinking.
> 
> Thanks for the compliment. I'm looking for things we have in common. I believe that if you only talk with people who agree with you you will never learn anything.


We've had exercises in looking for common ground before via a few new topics. They usually ended in disaster. We seem to be a group of very opinionated people, and that's fine until someone tries to change someone else's mind. Religion is based on faith and is a private, personal choice. People are usually not receptive to discussions of faith aimed at changing someone's mind.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

yeah - like the old comedians would ask - Chosen for what?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Surprises drive me more wild than usual, and the link gives me nuttink. Help!!


Well, here it is, without the explanation.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> We've had exercises in looking for common ground before via a few new topics. They usually ended in disaster. We seem to be a group of very opinionated people, and that's fine until someone tries to change someone else's mind. Religion is based on faith and is a private, personal choice. People are usually not receptive to discussions of faith aimed at changing someone's mind.


So sensible. So sensible.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> I don't know anything about the flat tax, but it sounds as though it isn't fair to people who make little money. Would everything be taxed including capital gains, dividends, etc.? What about loopholes? Would they be gone? What about stashing income offshore? I'd have to read up on it.


Its the most fair because everyone would pay the same percentage. ALL income is taxed, no tax loopholes, no tax shelters. Those who make very little would pay very little. The percentage could be much lower because the wealthy would be paying on ALL of their income. The way the system is now, the very, very wealthy pay little or no taxes because after they take their deductions, they have very little "taxable" income. Same with corporations! They often end up paying no taxes because of the write offs they're given. I'd also like it to be a TRUE tax and eliminate all of the hidden taxes and fees.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Ahh! As I've said before: not everyone who calls themselves a Christian, is! True Christians would never try to kill the Jews because they know that the Jews are GOD'S chosen people!!!


Chosen (according to the Bible)...but damned to Hell because they don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God (according to CB and the others). It simply makes no sense.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree with you, Poor Purl! I think they are in the process of eliminating the middle class. They want two classes; them and the workers!


And they expect them to work without a minimum wage.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> My boyfriend, Robert Reich writes about proposed legislation in California which would base corporate taxes on a ratio comparing a typical worker's pay with the CEO's pay. If the CEO makes 400 times that of the typical worker the corporate tax rate would reflect that with a higher tax rate, and if the CEO"s pay was just 25 times the typical worker's, the corporate tax rate would be much lower. Interesting concept.
> 
> http://robertreich.org/post/83456610643b


Your boyfriend is, and has always been, a genius. Pity he's no longer in a position where people are forced to listen to him.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Nebraska - you are a smart woman. I think the Temple was more than a house of worship but better biblical scholars would know more. Anyway, there are nicer passages to pick from I am sure. How about the Song of Songs to spice things up here?


I don't remember what I was saying but it fit the point I was trying to make. I never imagined anyone being offended. I don't know anyone who empathizes with the bankers. Am I'm not talking about the bank's employees! I'm talking the big money people!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> We've had exercises in looking for common ground before via a few new topics. They usually ended in disaster. We seem to be a group of very opinionated people, and that's fine until someone tries to change someone else's mind. Religion is based on faith and is a private, personal choice. People are usually not receptive to discussions of faith aimed at changing someone's mind.


Being opinionated is fine! Trying to change other's minds is human nature. We all have something to gain from hearing opinions different than our own, if for no other reason than to see what the other side is thinking. Its OK to "think" they're nuts. But communication breaks down when you "say" it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how crazy we may think it is.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Its the most fair because everyone would pay the same percentage. ALL income is taxed, no tax loopholes, no tax shelters. Those who make very little would pay very little. The percentage could be much lower because the wealthy would be paying on ALL of their income. The way the system is now, the very, very wealthy pay little or no taxes because after they take their deductions, they have very little "taxable" income. Same with corporations! They often end up paying no taxes because of the write offs they're given. I'd also like it to be a TRUE tax and eliminate all of the hidden taxes and fees.


It's not fair at all. Say you earn $50,000/yr. and Mr. K makes $50,000,000/year. If the tax rate is 10%, you pay $5,000 in tax, leaving you with $45,000; K pays $5 million in tax, leaving him with $45 million. You may not meet all your expenses with the $45,000, whereas K will probably meet all his expenses with a lot left over.

Besides, without charitable deductions, there probably would be no hospitals, museums, etc. built, so we can't remove those. And without medical deductions, people with high medical costs will be left with nothing, so you can't remove those. And so it goes.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Being opinionated is fine! Trying to change other's minds is human nature. We all have something to gain from hearing opinions different than our own, if for no other reason than to see what the other side is thinking. Its OK to "think" they're nuts. But communication breaks down when you "say" it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how crazy we may think it is.


So it's all right for someone to say I'm damned because I don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah (who, in Judaism, would still just be a man and would not be worshipped), but it's not all right for me to say she's nuts because she believes this dead human being is part of God and she's trying to make me believe it, too?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I think the French had an interesting and effective answer to that.


It was effective, all right, but they may have gotten a little carried away.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I suggest we all develop memory problems and forget she/he/it exists.


Forget who exists?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Coming from CB it's hypocritical, though. I've heard her and her ilk claim many times to "love" Jews. Funny kind of love, that, if it compels one to immediately try to change a basic tenet of the love-object's faith.


One of them, to show how much she loves Jews, listed the ones she loves: Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and David. Of course, these have been dead for more than 2,000 years.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> If I don't want to hear it, and I tell you I don't want to hear it, then that does make it wrong. You (general) are only doing it to save your own souls. Wrong!
> :twisted:


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Try to put yourself in their place. If you were taught that your GOD wanted you to go out and spread the news, would you do what GOD wanted, or what other people wanted? They've been taught not to worship man but to worship GOD. Because your views are different doesn't mean that theirs should be. *And if you don't believe in GOD, why would it bother you*? You don't think that people should proselytize, therefore you shouldn't do it. But those who think they should, deserve to make their own decisions also. You are free to ignore them but you're not free to stop them. And why insult them for making their own choice, just as you do?


 :thumbdown:

I was going to post -- had it written out but decided it would make things worse. You are correct Al. We don't need to get into 
Religious arguments - there is enough going on here.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> One of them, to show how much she loves Jews, listed the ones she loves: Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and David. Of course, these have been dead for more than 2,000 years.


If some of them were alive to begin with. Since only evidence has been found for David - the rest are just literary figures.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Nebraska - you are a smart woman. I think the Temple was more than a house of worship but better biblical scholars would know more. Anyway, there are nicer passages to pick from I am sure. How about the Song of Songs to spice things up here?


You might be interested in http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/secondtemple.html . The Temple was large enough to hold a million people, which is close to the number needed during three holidays, when everyone came to Jerusalem to bring sacrifices. Structures were built around it to provide for the needs of visitors. One of these needs was to change their Roman coins (with pictures of Caesar) to coins that were acceptable for Jewish worship. Hence the money changers. They had a legitimate function, right there on the Temple Mount.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> yeah - like the old comedians would ask - Chosen for what?


OK, I have more time now. I will tell you what "I" think. This is me! Some may agree or disagree.

I believe that the Torah is the same or close to the first five books of the Old Testament. Correct me if I am wrong. GOD found favor with Abraham and gave him and his descendants (Jews or Jewish people, whichever you prefer) special blessings. He also promised them a Messiah. GOD only ever promised the Jews a Messiah! He never promised the Gentiles. He never promised the Samaritans nor any other. Only the Jews! Many Jews believed that JESUS CHRIST was the Messiah and became followers of JESUS, thus became Christians. Remember, the original disciples were Jews. They went throughout the land and brought many people to JESUS, both Jews and Gentiles (and many others). Many other Jews did not believe that JESUS was the Messiah but did believe that the Messiah was yet to come. After all, GOD keeps his promises!

This is what I believe. I believe that when JESUS comes back as he promised us he would, the Jews who have not turned their backs on GOD, will recognize HIM as the Messiah that GOD promised! JESUS said that in the end times there would be a remnant. "I" believe that GOD will not turn HIS back on HIS chosen people as long as they don't turn their backs on HIM!

If I'm wrong, it should make no difference to you. Its what I believe!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> And they expect them to work without a minimum wage.


Minimum wage does not and has never helped anyone. When the minimum wage goes up, the price of goods and services go up. The minimum wage worker must now pay more for everything he buys and is thus in the same place that he was in. The middle income workers do not get a corresponding wage increase but then have to pay more for everything and end up in a worse position. Minimum wage is one tool used to eliminate the middle class.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It's not fair at all. Say you earn $50,000/yr. and Mr. K makes $50,000,000/year. If the tax rate is 10%, you pay $5,000 in tax, leaving you with $45,000; K pays $5 million in tax, leaving him with $45 million. You may not meet all your expenses with the $45,000, whereas K will probably meet all his expenses with a lot left over.
> 
> Besides, without charitable deductions, there probably would be no hospitals, museums, etc. built, so we can't remove those. And without medical deductions, people with high medical costs will be left with nothing, so you can't remove those. And so it goes.


He earned the $45,000. Why shouldn't he be able to keep it? If you eliminate opportunities for cheating, I think he deserves it. People who work hard ie 80 hours a week, two jobs etc... earned their money and deserve to keep it. Opportunities were always available (excepting recent times) for people to get ahead. If they were willing to work harder than anybody else, they made more money. I didn't choose it but admire those that did.

As far as donations? You can't take it with you! What are you going to do with it? The wealthy like to see their names on hospitals, museums etc... It feeds their ego.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> So it's all right for someone to say I'm damned because I don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah (who, in Judaism, would still just be a man and would not be worshipped), but it's not all right for me to say she's nuts because she believes this dead human being is part of God and she's trying to make me believe it, too?


Nope! She can state what she believes but shouldn't say your damned any more than you should say she's nuts. She may believe that you are damned, but you think she's nuts! So, who cares?!?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> One of them, to show how much she loves Jews, listed the ones she loves: Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and David. Of course, these have been dead for more than 2,000 years.


So, who cares?!? Why even post this? What does anyone gain from this?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> :thumbdown:
> 
> I was going to post -- had it written out but decided it would make things worse. You are correct Al. We don't need to get into
> Religious arguments - there is enough going on here.


She was on a thread with like minded people. If it bothers you, why do you read it? Are you looking for a fight?  Are they not allowed to express their opinion if it differs from yours?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You might be interested in http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/secondtemple.html . The Temple was large enough to hold a million people, which is close to the number needed during three holidays, when everyone came to Jerusalem to bring sacrifices. Structures were built around it to provide for the needs of visitors. One of these needs was to change their Roman coins (with pictures of Caesar) to coins that were acceptable for Jewish worship. Hence the money changers. They had a legitimate function, right there on the Temple Mount.


Thanks for sharing! I'd never heard that before and will check out the link! A million people?!? Wow! Had no idea!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Minimum wage does not and has never helped anyone. When the minimum wage goes up, the price of goods and services go up. The minimum wage worker must now pay more for everything he buys and is thus in the same place that he was in. The middle income workers do not get a corresponding wage increase but then have to pay more for everything and end up in a worse position. Minimum wage is one tool used to eliminate the middle class.


Prices go up even higher when a corporation declares a dividend or pays its CEO $500 million. None of this goes into the pockets of the workers, but they still have to pay for food and fuel. I think what you have there is just an excuse for keeping workers in an unstable situation so they'll be afraid of losing their jobs if they ask for a raise.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> She was on a thread with like minded people. If it bothers you, why do you read it? Are you looking for a fight? Are they not allowed to express their opinion if it differs from yours?


I am on a thread of like minded people , If it bothers you whywhy do you read it? Are you looking for a fight? - Are we not allowed to express our opinion if it differs from yours????????

hmmm. works both ways.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> He earned the $45,000. Why shouldn't he be able to keep it? If you eliminate opportunities for cheating, I think he deserves it. People who work hard ie 80 hours a week, two jobs etc... earned their money and deserve to keep it. Opportunities were always available (excepting recent times) for people to get ahead. If they were willing to work harder than anybody else, they made more money. I didn't choose it but admire those that did.
> 
> As far as donations? You can't take it with you! What are you going to do with it? The wealthy like to see their names on hospitals, museums etc... It feeds their ego.


I don't understand. You were talking about a flat tax. Of course the lower-wage worker deserves to keep his $45,000; nobody said anything different. But if the tax is a flat 10%, with no deductions, all the low-income guy can spend his remaining money on is necessities - nothing for luxuries, nothing for savings. The high-income guy would face no changes to his way of life if he paid a tax of $5 million or even $10 million.

And please don't tell me he "earned" all that money by working hard. What does it mean for one person to work a thousand times as hard as another? Even the rich guy has only 24 hours a day for work. He got all that money by seeing to it that his friends were on the board of directors and voted to give it to him.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Nope! She can state what she believes but shouldn't say your damned any more than you should say she's nuts. She may believe that you are damned, but you think she's nuts! So, who cares?!?


Okay, if it works both ways, fine.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So, who cares?!? Why even post this? What does anyone gain from this?


It was mentioned that true Christians love Jews. I was simply pointing out that the Jews they "love" are not necessarily the Jews living today. You may not care about that, but for some people it is very meaningful.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks for sharing! I'd never heard that before and will check out the link! A million people?!? Wow! Had no idea!


I think it was supposed to have been the largest structure in the world at the time. So was the World Trade Center at one time. How have the mighty fallen!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It's not fair at all. Say you earn $50,000/yr. and Mr. K makes $50,000,000/year. If the tax rate is 10%, you pay $5,000 in tax, leaving you with $45,000; K pays $5 million in tax, leaving him with $45 million. You may not meet all your expenses with the $45,000, whereas K will probably meet all his expenses with a lot left over.
> 
> Besides, without charitable deductions, there probably would be no hospitals, museums, etc. built, so we can't remove those. And without medical deductions, people with high medical costs will be left with nothing, so you can't remove those. And so it goes.


I was about to respond but you said it so well!
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You might be interested in http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/secondtemple.html . The Temple was large enough to hold a million people, which is close to the number needed during three holidays, when everyone came to Jerusalem to bring sacrifices. Structures were built around it to provide for the needs of visitors. One of these needs was to change their Roman coins (with pictures of Caesar) to coins that were acceptable for Jewish worship. Hence the money changers. They had a legitimate function, right there on the Temple Mount.


Oy! Such a student. I knew Purl would have all the answers. Brava!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Minimum wage does not and has never helped anyone. When the minimum wage goes up, the price of goods and services go up. The minimum wage worker must now pay more for everything he buys and is thus in the same place that he was in. The middle income workers do not get a corresponding wage increase but then have to pay more for everything and end up in a worse position. Minimum wage is one tool used to eliminate the middle class.


When the minimum wage goes up, the economy is helped. Now all those low income people have money to spend. They can buy more, more products are sold, the economy is strengthened. Does that make sense?


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

SQM said:


> Oy! Such a student. I knew Purl would have all the answers. Brava!


I think we're all a bit meshugganah(some moreso than others, lol)

:lol:


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Do people really believe that everyone is entitled to have and express an opinion, no matter how vile? There are some opinions that are not allowed to be expressed, or do you think that Sterling bloke was perfectly entitled to express his racism? It's an opinion, after all.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> Do people really believe that everyone is entitled to have and express an opinion, no matter how vile? There are some opinions that are not allowed to be expressed, or do you think that Sterling bloke was perfectly entitled to express his racism? It's an opinion, after all.


Indeed. As someone once said, "We are all entitled to our opinions, but we are not always entitled to voice them."

:?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:



> When the minimum wage goes up, the economy is helped. Now all those low income people have money to spend. They can buy more, more products are sold, the economy is strengthened. Does that make sense?


Nebraska claims that prices and rents will go up so even with the minimum wage higher, the worker will be paying more for goods and services. So workers are not better off - it is all the same. Very interesting idea and one to be certainly pondered.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Oy! Such a student. I knew Purl would have all the answers. Brava!


That's because Purl knows how to Google. Google has all the answers, the right ones and the wrong ones.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Prices go up even higher when a corporation declares a dividend or pays its CEO $500 million. None of this goes into the pockets of the workers, but they still have to pay for food and fuel. I think what you have there is just an excuse for keeping workers in an unstable situation so they'll be afraid of losing their jobs if they ask for a raise.


I agree!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I am on a thread of like minded people , If it bothers you whywhy do you read it? Are you looking for a fight? - Are we not allowed to express our opinion if it differs from yours????????
> 
> hmmm. works both ways.


It doesn't bother me. I'm not looking for a fight. Do you object to polite debate?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

aw9358 said:


> Do people really believe that everyone is entitled to have and express an opinion, no matter how vile? There are some opinions that are not allowed to be expressed, or do you think that Sterling bloke was perfectly entitled to express his racism? It's an opinion, after all.


I love that question. I hope I can answer it.

By the way, are you new to these parts? If so Welcome to our site. If you are not new, please forgive my confusion.

Sterling is a complex bigot. While mouthing off as he did, he still was to be honored at the NAACP. I heard that he donates millions and millions to minority causes. Since we are "not in favor of our government giving people hand-outs : ) " it is good that we have some in the private sector who contribute. Will this incident stop him from donating? I also heard that the wife is suing the mistress claiming her husband lavished her money on his mistress. Actually why am I even discussing this? Some high school girls were kidnapped in Africa by Islamic fundamentalists. Where is that story? I guess the sterling story has money, drama, and sex thus more worthy of being considered news.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> That's because Purl knows how to Google. Google has all the answers, the right ones and the wrong ones.


Ah! But judgment is a higher thinking skill than recalling facts. So I give all credit to PP.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> Do people really believe that everyone is entitled to have and express an opinion, no matter how vile? There are some opinions that are not allowed to be expressed, or do you think that Sterling bloke was perfectly entitled to express his racism? It's an opinion, after all.


Freedom of speech in a democracy is a given, of course. But the NBA is a private organization, and its members agree to adhere to a certain code of behavior. Sterling can spew his racist talk as far and wide as he chooses--he just can't do so and remain in the NBA.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> I love that question. I hope I can answer it.
> 
> By the way, are you new to these parts? If so Welcome to our site. If you are not new, please forgive my confusion.
> 
> Sterling is a complex bigot. While mouthing off as he did, he still was to be honored at the NAACP. I heard that he donates millions and millions to minority causes. Since we are "not in favor of our government giving people hand-out : ) " it is good that we have some in the private sector who contribute. Will this incident stop him from donating? I also heard that the wife is suing the mistress claiming her husband lavished her money on his mistress. Actually why am I even discussing this? Some high school girls were kidnapped in Africa by Islamic fundamentalists.


I've been following that story--apparently the girls are being sold as wives for about fifteen dollars each. Horrible! and a reminder that all sorts of evils are committed in the name of religion.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It doesn't bother me. I'm not looking for a fight. Do you object to polite debate?


No Nebraska is okay. She was my shield on D and D, especially when I left my sword here. Neb. just happens to be religious but is still a critical thinker in other areas. She is an honest person and a talented crafter. She does it all. Neb is okay. She can skate with us.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I don't understand. You were talking about a flat tax. Of course the lower-wage worker deserves to keep his $45,000; nobody said anything different. But if the tax is a flat 10%, with no deductions, all the low-income guy can spend his remaining money on is necessities - nothing for luxuries, nothing for savings. The high-income guy would face no changes to his way of life if he paid a tax of $5 million or even $10 million.
> 
> And please don't tell me he "earned" all that money by working hard. What does it mean for one person to work a thousand times as hard as another? Even the rich guy has only 24 hours a day for work. He got all that money by seeing to it that his friends were on the board of directors and voted to give it to him.


Excuse me. I read it wrong. There is no fair. Some are born with advantages, others work harder. Those who work harder deserve to keep their money, regardless of his way of life. If they worked twice as hard as me, they deserve twice as much. As far as the super wealthy who get rich through illicit means? That's another issue. You can't fix that through taxes. I'd like nothing more than to end corruption because that's where the real issue is! If we don't end the corruption, nothing else matters, not the tax code, not minimum wage, not regulations, not anything!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Okay, if it works both ways, fine.


I agree! It needs to go BOTH ways! I hope everyone reads this!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> No Nebraska is okay. She was my shield on D and D, especially since I left my sword here. Neb. just happens to be religious but is still a critical thinker in other areas. She is an honest person and a talented crafter. She does it all. Neb is okay. She can skate with us.


That's good enough for me! 
:-D She does seem to have the ability to remain on good terms with both sides. That's pretty remarkable.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Nebraska claims that prices and rents will go up so even with the minimum wage higher, the worker will be paying more for goods and services. So workers are not better off - it is all the same. Very interesting idea and one to be certainly pondered.


Minimum wage is not a new idea, nor is raising it. I don't think it's had the bad effect we're being warned about. Some cities have raised the minimum wage and are doing fine. As I said, removing the minimum wage is just another way of making workers feel insecure, which is what Alan Greenspan thought his job entailed. It's good for the top and bad for the bottom.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree!


But I was disagreeing with your point that the minimum wage was bad for labor. Now I'm all confused.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It doesn't bother me. I'm not looking for a fight. Do you object to polite debate?


Designer1234 is one of the politest people around. I don't think she objects to anything that stays within the bounds of civility.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Minimum wage is not a new idea, nor is raising it. I don't think it's had the bad effect we're being warned about. Some cities have raised the minimum wage and are doing fine. As I said, removing the minimum wage is just another way of making workers feel insecure, which is what Alan Greenspan thought his job entailed. It's good for the top and bad for the bottom.


Huh? Does some politician want to eliminate the minimum wage? Is s/he CRAZY?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It was mentioned that true Christians love Jews. I was simply pointing out that the Jews they "love" are not necessarily the Jews living today. You may not care about that, but for some people it is very meaningful.


It just came across as antagonistic. I really hoping that we can start over and discuss things without the nasty. Both sides have pertinent information. Both have different viewpoints. We can all benefit from hearing different things. We don't have to agree. Right now, neither side trusts the other. I'm looking for leaders that are willing to ignore snide remarks until trust can be developed. Will you be that? I think you will.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> :thumbdown:
> 
> I was going to post -- had it written out but decided it would make things worse. You are correct Al. We don't need to get into
> Religious arguments - there is enough going on here.


Thank you!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Excuse me. I read it wrong. There is no fair. Some are born with advantages, others work harder. Those who work harder deserve to keep their money, regardless of his way of life. If they worked twice as hard as me, they deserve twice as much. As far as the super wealthy who get rich through illicit means? That's another issue. You can't fix that through taxes. I'd like nothing more than to end corruption because that's where the real issue is! If we don't end the corruption, nothing else matters, not the tax code, not minimum wage, not regulations, not anything!


But you _can_ fix some things with taxes. During the 50s, 60s, and 70s, when the top marginal tax rate was really high, the top players would put their money back into the business rather than take it home and pay all that tax on it (almost 90% in some cases). The middle class was doing fine, and the rich did not complain that they were too poor, or even that they were being picked on. Now that they're making obscene returns with low taxes, they complain that they're not getting the respect they've "earned."


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I think it was supposed to have been the largest structure in the world at the time. So was the World Trade Center at one time. How have the mighty fallen!


That was very interesting and has piqued my interest. I'm going to do more reading about this. Thanks! One thing I will mention; the link said that they were to change the money BEFORE they entered the temple. Matthew 21:12 refers to JESUS throwing them out of the temple. I think I'll have to do more reading on this.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Excuse me. I read it wrong. There is no fair. Some are born with advantages, others work harder. Those who work harder deserve to keep their money, regardless of his way of life. If they worked twice as hard as me, they deserve twice as much. As far as the super wealthy who get rich through illicit means? That's another issue. You can't fix that through taxes. I'd like nothing more than to end corruption because that's where the real issue is! If we don't end the corruption, nothing else matters, not the tax code, not minimum wage, not regulations, not anything!


The problem is that the super wealthy don't have to use illicit means to get their outrageous payouts. They get by with a little help from their friends.

I agree that if someone works twice as hard as I do, s/he deserves double my pay. But how do you calculate that someone is working 1,000 times as hard as another person and therefore deserves 1,000 times as much pay? Coal miners and janitors work very hard but are poorly paid. How do you account for that?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> That's good enough for me!
> :-D She does seem to have the ability to remain on good terms with both sides. That's pretty remarkable.


I've noticed that, too. She seems not to be doctrinaire about things but approaches each subject directly. It is remarkable.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> When the minimum wage goes up, the economy is helped. Now all those low income people have money to spend. They can buy more, more products are sold, the economy is strengthened. Does that make sense?


It would make sense except that you're forgetting something. The stock holders MUST get their dividends! They WILL get their dividends! The price of goods and services must go up to cover the increased costs of employment because if the shareholders complain, the CEO loses his job. He gets the big bucks to guarantee good dividends. Its all about the money. So if the low income worker has to pay more for goods and services, where did his raise go? Is he really better off?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Designer1234 is one of the politest people around. I don't think she objects to anything that stays within the bounds of civility.


Thankyou Purl.

I have been wrong before and possibly she is a person who can agree with parts of both sides -- with things the way they are on the threads here - she will really be something if she can. I wish her well if she can do that. I will admit if I have been incorrect about her beliefs and motives. Maybe she can break middle ground. hmmm


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

maysmom said:


> I think we're all a bit meshugganah(some moreso than others, lol)
> 
> :lol:


LOL! Had to look that one up!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Huh? Does some politician want to eliminate the minimum wage? Is s/he CRAZY?


Haven't you read some of the things Repubs are saying? Okay, some are being said by Michele Bachmann, so you know what to think of those. But there are others, esp. the supply-side trickle-downers, who claim (untruthfully) that raising the minimum wage will destroy jobs.

I just found this really interesting opinion piece by Eugene Robinson that disputes that idea: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/eugene-robinson-gop-poor-mouthing-on-the-minimum-wage/2014/02/24/12a6b192-9d8a-11e3-a050-dc3322a94fa7_story.html


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> Do people really believe that everyone is entitled to have and express an opinion, no matter how vile? There are some opinions that are not allowed to be expressed, or do you think that Sterling bloke was perfectly entitled to express his racism? It's an opinion, after all.


I think that the First Amendment guarantees the right to be as vile in our expression as we want. That doesn't mean that we have to listen to them or do business with them. I think that Sterling can be a racist if he wants to but that if he does he will be punished by a society that doesn't approve. All of his employees should quit. People should refuse to go to his games or rent his apartments. He would be forced to sell by virtue of economics. Then someone else will come along and buy it and KNOW what will happen if he does the same.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It just came across as antagonistic. I really hoping that we can start over and discuss things without the nasty. Both sides have pertinent information. Both have different viewpoints. We can all benefit from hearing different things. We don't have to agree. Right now, neither side trusts the other. I'm looking for leaders that are willing to ignore snide remarks until trust can be developed. Will you be that? I think you will.


I can't promise to behave. Snideness is a very important part of me.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> The problem is that the super wealthy don't have to use illicit means to get their outrageous payouts. They get by with a little help from their friends.
> 
> I agree that if someone works twice as hard as I do, s/he deserves double my pay. But how do you calculate that someone is working 1,000 times as hard as another person and therefore deserves 1,000 times as much pay? Coal miners and janitors work very hard but are poorly paid. How do you account for that?


I agree -- Those who inherit and who don't pay the same percentage of taxes - have opportunities very few blue collar workers have - they can dress well ( able to make good impressions) they have vehicles to get to apply for jobs, they usually have a good education whereas a poor person rarely can afford to go to University and or get a trade. It is not an even playing field . Those who are well to do have a soft place to land -- they are protected by their education, by their friends, by their acquaintances who usually are well to do as well. While the poor are ignored, and pushed down. That is a fact.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> That was very interesting and has piqued my interest. I'm going to do more reading about this. Thanks! One thing I will mention; the link said that they were to change the money BEFORE they entered the temple. Matthew 21:12 refers to JESUS throwing them out of the temple. I think I'll have to do more reading on this.


It might be that the entirety of structures on the Temple Mount were referred to as "the Temple," rather than just the central building. Just a guess.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> No Nebraska is okay. She was my shield on D and D, especially when I left my sword here. Neb. just happens to be religious but is still a critical thinker in other areas. She is an honest person and a talented crafter. She does it all. Neb is okay. She can skate with us.


Thanks. But I'm far from perfect! I too, am opinionated. I do though, try to gain from other's opinions. I wish that BOTH sides could lay down their swords. Information, whether you agree with it or not, is always valuable. The day may come that we don't have access to the internet. We should use it while we can.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think that the First Amendment guarantees the right to be as vile in our expression as we want. That doesn't mean that we have to listen to them or do business with them. I think that Sterling can be a racist if he wants to but that if he does he will be punished by a society that doesn't approve. All of his employees should quit. People should refuse to go to his games or rent his apartments. He would be forced to sell by virtue of economics. Then someone else will come along and buy it and KNOW what will happen if he does the same.


Kitter from Nebraska
we are on the same Page. Sterling is a nasty old Geezer but I am sure that he has been this way all of his Life. Some folks who defend him think that since he made the vile comments in private, it is o.k. It is not. What he thinks, says and does effects
many people and then he has the gall to say: "I should have paid her off". Wonder what other misdeeds he covered up with greenbacks.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think that the First Amendment guarantees the right to be as vile in our expression as we want. That doesn't mean that we have to listen to them or do business with them. I think that Sterling can be a racist if he wants to but that if he does he will be punished by a society that doesn't approve. All of his employees should quit. People should refuse to go to his games or rent his apartments. He would be forced to sell by virtue of economics. Then someone else will come along and buy it and KNOW what will happen if he does the same.


I thought about that--if economic sanctions are expected to bring Russia in line re: the Ukraine, why not slap them on Sterling?

But he's so rich that people boycotting his games and refusing to rent from him probably wouldn't make a dent. And his most valuable employees are of course his team--but doubtless they're under contract to play each and every game (barring injuries, of course). If they refused to go out on the court he'd probably sue them.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Huh? Does some politician want to eliminate the minimum wage? Is s/he CRAZY?


susanmos2000
you still question if they are crazy? They underline that every time they open their snout. We know quite well, that a decent minimum wage makes for a good ecnomy.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I thought about that--if economic sanctions are expected to bring Russia in line re: the Ukraine, why not slap them on Sterling?
> 
> But he's so rich that people boycotting his games and refusing to rent from him probably wouldn't make a dent. And his most valuable employees are of course his team--but doubtless they're under contract to play each and every game (barring injuries, of course). If they refused to go out on the court he'd probably sue them.


susanmos2000
if this guy does not disappear and his team gets sold, I am quite sure that ALL Players will go on strike. Only money speaks to folks like him. Most likely some potential buyers are lurking and hope that he will behave badly and reduce the value of his team. But what are a few Million for this creep?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I agree -- Those who inherit and who don't pay the same percentage of taxes - have opportunities very few blue collar workers have - they can dress well ( able to make good impressions) they have vehicles to get to apply for jobs, they usually have a good education whereas a poor person rarely can afford to go to University and or get a trade. It is not an even playing field so I can't agree with her statements. She makes no room for those who work hard all their lives and are taxed too much, or have llnesses or are laid off by those who own the businesses that are sent to China and other places because the workers work for next to nothing -- I think she makes too many flat statements -- most things are some good some bad -- many things are not fair -- flat statements do not cover all situations. Usually things are not all bad - nor do all people live the same way nor are they ABLE to live the same way -- It is a very uneven playing field. Those who are well to do have a soft place to land -- they are protected by their education, by their friends, by their acquaintances who usually are well to do as well. While the poor are ignored, and pushed down. That is a fact.


As F. Scott Fitzgerald didn't really say, "The rich are different from you and me."


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> That's good enough for me!
> :-D She does seem to have the ability to remain on good terms with both sides. That's pretty remarkable.


Thank you! I hope that means that you'll be open to listening to others even if you disagree. ? Somebody has to be decent first or it'll never happen.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Minimum wage is not a new idea, nor is raising it. I don't think it's had the bad effect we're being warned about. Some cities have raised the minimum wage and are doing fine. As I said, removing the minimum wage is just another way of making workers feel insecure, which is what Alan Greenspan thought his job entailed. It's good for the top and bad for the bottom.


Has anything ever changed? Have low income workers EVER gotten ahead or even gotten by? Minimum wage has been increased many times. When I first started working it was $1.80 an hour. Minimum wage workers are no better off than they were then. So, while it sounds good, it does nothing to help people.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Has anything ever changed? Have low income workers EVER gotten ahead or even gotten by? Minimum wage has been increased many times. When I first started working it was $1.80 an hour. Minimum wage workers are no better off than they were then. So, while it sounds good, it does nothing to help people.


But then why are those Republicans complaining about how much the poor really have? Telephones, television, even places to live. We've never paid a living wage, so we have no way of knowing what would happen.

I highly recommend Eugene Robinson's piece in the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/eugene-robinson-gop-poor-mouthing-on-the-minimum-wage/2014/02/24/12a6b192-9d8a-11e3-a050-dc3322a94fa7_story.html


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Prices go up even higher when a corporation declares a dividend or pays its CEO $500 million. None of this goes into the pockets of the workers, but they still have to pay for food and fuel. I think what you have there is just an excuse for keeping workers in an unstable situation so they'll be afraid of losing their jobs if they ask for a raise.


You're right! Prices DO go higher when a corporation declares a dividend or pays it's CEO $500 million. But remember, nothing is going to stop them from doing this. They're not going to give up anything to raise the minimum wage. They keep all their goodies and raise prices. We're both right? Haha!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

maysmom said:


> I think we're all a bit meshugganah(some moreso than others, lol)
> 
> :lol:


Ooh, that's my favorite word. I also like schmatta and ungapatchka (can't spell them correctly, I'm sure)


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> Nebraska claims that prices and rents will go up so even with the minimum wage higher, the worker will be paying more for goods and services. So workers are not better off - it is all the same. Very interesting idea and one to be certainly pondered.


Why is it always assumed that the buyer must bear the brunt of increasing the minimum wage?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> susanmos2000
> if this guy does not disappear and his team gets sold, I am quite sure that ALL Players will go on strike. Only money speaks to folks like him. Most likely some potential buyers are lurking and hope that he will behave badly and reduce the value of his team. But what are a few Million for this creep?


Exactly. I believe he was fined 3.5M by the NBA--didn't even blink.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> But you _can_ fix some things with taxes. During the 50s, 60s, and 70s, when the top marginal tax rate was really high, the top players would put their money back into the business rather than take it home and pay all that tax on it (almost 90% in some cases). The middle class was doing fine, and the rich did not complain that they were too poor, or even that they were being picked on. Now that they're making obscene returns with low taxes, they complain that they're not getting the respect they've "earned."


I wish I were more of an optimist. I don't think that either side is interested in fixing anything. I think there are those with more money and power than I could even imagine. And I think those people control the politicians. I think those people want to eliminate the middle class and make us all worker bees. I don't want my children to work to make life better for those people. I want my children to be able to choose their own destiny and work to make their own lives better. Its really hard to do that, these days.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you! I hope that means that you'll be open to listening to others even if you disagree. ? Somebody has to be decent first or it'll never happen.


Well, I'll try. I'm sure none of the lefties here are in perfect agreement on any issue, but we do manage to get along pretty well.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> The problem is that the super wealthy don't have to use illicit means to get their outrageous payouts. They get by with a little help from their friends.
> 
> I agree that if someone works twice as hard as I do, s/he deserves double my pay. But how do you calculate that someone is working 1,000 times as hard as another person and therefore deserves 1,000 times as much pay? Coal miners and janitors work very hard but are poorly paid. How do you account for that?


First of all, it is illicit when their friends are the ones making laws, writing regulations or granting government contracts. That's what I was referring to. I can't think of any billionaires who haven't been helped by anyone of those things.

My heart aches for people who have to work so hard or accept much risk. But think about it...as long as people are willing to do those jobs for that pay, it will happen. Some feel they have no choice but (not counting since the recession) really they choose for a reason. Some don't want to go to college. Some don't want to relocate. Some already have too many responsibilities due to choices they made in the past. Everyone makes their choices for their own reasons. Some make no choice and just accept whats easiest to get.

I know what its like to be poor. When we were younger and had three children, we were living on $12,000. It wasn't much. Things were very tough. My husband worked full time and went to school part time. I'm not unsympathetic but I know that we would not be where we are today, if we had not gone through that. We took on debt to build a future. It took years to pay off those school loans. We could have stayed where we were or we could change it. We changed it.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I've noticed that, too. She seems not to be doctrinaire about things but approaches each subject directly. It is remarkable.


Oh my gosh! I'm feeling faint! LOL!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I've noticed that, too. She seems not to be doctrinaire about things but approaches each subject directly. It is remarkable.


Told you so. She is a religious/critical thinker. Clearly they are not oxymoronic. Neb is okay.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Thankyou Purl.
> 
> I have been wrong before and possibly she is a person who can agree with parts of both sides -- with things the way they are on the threads here - she will really be something if she can. I wish her well if she can do that. I will admit if I have been incorrect about her beliefs and motives. Maybe she can break middle ground. hmmm


I'm sure gonna try! I think we gain when we hear something new and different, even if we don't agree. Even if we hate what we hear. People come from all different backgrounds and experiences. We can't help but learn something.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I can't promise to behave. Snideness is a very important part of me.


So well said but we mustn't be cyber-bullies, must we?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Ooh, that's my favorite word. I also like schmatta and ungapatchka (can't spell them correctly, I'm sure)


That is funny. I forget where you live , but can you use those words and have others understand you?

Did you have a Jewish lover when you were 19 years old? How did you learn those words?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Ooh, that's my favorite word. I also like schmatta and ungapatchka (can't spell them correctly, I'm sure)


Mike Nichols says that "spatula" should be a Yiddish word.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Haven't you read some of the things Repubs are saying? Okay, some are being said by Michele Bachmann, so you know what to think of those. But there are others, esp. the supply-side trickle-downers, who claim (untruthfully) that raising the minimum wage will destroy jobs.
> 
> I just found this really interesting opinion piece by Eugene Robinson that disputes that idea: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/eugene-robinson-gop-poor-mouthing-on-the-minimum-wage/2014/02/24/12a6b192-9d8a-11e3-a050-dc3322a94fa7_story.html


OK, I read it. It was very hard for me because I wanted to scream and pull my hair out. But I read it! Could someone, anyone? tell me where the money will come from? We're BROKE! 73% or 74% (I forget which) of our debt is now being drawn from the federal reserve. No one else will lend us money. The dollar is inches away from losing the international trade status. Do you understand that the dollar won't be worth the paper its written on, when that happens? We are living in perilous times. We no longer have the luxury to print money any time we want to. Other countries are already rebelling and a currency war is already happening. How do we pay for that when we can't even pay the interest on what we owe now?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I can't promise to behave. Snideness is a very important part of me.


Hahahahahaha! Let people know when you're being snide?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> So well said but we mustn't be cyber-bullies, must we?


I admit to being snide, but not to bullying.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I agree -- Those who inherit and who don't pay the same percentage of taxes - have opportunities very few blue collar workers have - they can dress well ( able to make good impressions) they have vehicles to get to apply for jobs, they usually have a good education whereas a poor person rarely can afford to go to University and or get a trade. It is not an even playing field . Those who are well to do have a soft place to land -- they are protected by their education, by their friends, by their acquaintances who usually are well to do as well. While the poor are ignored, and pushed down. That is a fact.


Would you not afford your children that opportunity, if you could? I would! I say bravo to fairly earned wealth! They deserve it! Its those who get their wealth through political or criminal connections are another story!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> OK, I read it. It was very hard for me because I wanted to scream and pull my hair out. But I read it! Could someone, anyone? tell me where the money will come from? We're BROKE! 73% or 74% (I forget which) of our debt is now being drawn from the federal reserve. No one else will lend us money. The dollar is inches away from losing the international trade status. Do you understand that the dollar won't be worth the paper its written on, when that happens? We are living in perilous times. We no longer have the luxury to print money any time we want to. Other countries are already rebelling and a currency war is already happening. How do we pay for that when we can't even pay the interest on what we owe now?


I don't believe your numbers or your dire predictions. In fact, there are plenty of economists that disagree with you as well. The deficit has been shrinking over the past few years, and job numbers are improving.

I don't pretend to know much about economics, but I suspect you don't either. If you know more than a person gets from reading one or two blogs, tell me.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It might be that the entirety of structures on the Temple Mount were referred to as "the Temple," rather than just the central building. Just a guess.


Yup! That's why I want to look into it more! JESUS did say, (not quoting) this is a house of prayer and you have turned it into a den of thieves. I think it sounds like today's bankers (not the bank employees).


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Hahahahahaha! Let people know when you're being snide?


You can't tell? Okay. :twisted:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Kitter from Nebraska
> we are on the same Page. Sterling is a nasty old Geezer but I am sure that he has been this way all of his Life. Some folks who defend him think that since he made the vile comments in private, it is o.k. It is not. What he thinks, says and does effects
> many people and then he has the gall to say: "I should have paid her off". Wonder what other misdeeds he covered up with greenbacks.


I think if he's going to make vile comments, he should choose better friends. Haha! Just kidding. I agree.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> First of all, it is illicit when their friends are the ones making laws, writing regulations or granting government contracts. That's what I was referring to. I can't think of any billionaires who haven't been helped by anyone of those things.
> 
> My heart aches for people who have to work so hard or accept much risk. But think about it...as long as people are willing to do those jobs for that pay, it will happen. Some feel they have no choice but (not counting since the recession) really they choose for a reason. Some don't want to go to college. Some don't want to relocate. Some already have too many responsibilities due to choices they made in the past. Everyone makes their choices for their own reasons. Some make no choice and just accept whats easiest to get.
> 
> I know what its like to be poor. When we were younger and had three children, we were living on $12,000. It wasn't much. Things were very tough. My husband worked full time and went to school part time. I'm not unsympathetic but I know that we would not be where we are today, if we had not gone through that. We took on debt to build a future. It took years to pay off those school loans. We could have stayed where we were or we could change it. We changed it.


That's true enough, Nebraska, but at least you were one-half of a very solid couple. I don't think enough can be said about the plight of single moms--while they're out working two or three jobs to make ends meet their kids are left alone and unsupervised. They're certainly not getting the guidance and support they need to do well in school and generally make it in life. Some folks wonder why these struggling moms ever chose to have children in the first place, but let's not forget that the divorce rate in our country is about 50%. Too many mothers are left in the lurch when the marriage breaks up.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I thought about that--if economic sanctions are expected to bring Russia in line re: the Ukraine, why not slap them on Sterling?
> 
> But he's so rich that people boycotting his games and refusing to rent from him probably wouldn't make a dent. And his most valuable employees are of course his team--but doubtless they're under contract to play each and every game (barring injuries, of course). If they refused to go out on the court he'd probably sue them.


Even if it didn't make a dent, he's still a businessman. He'd sell. But you're probably right about the contracts. Still, if people refused to go to the games?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> susanmos2000
> you still question if they are crazy? They underline that every time they open their snout. We know quite well, that a decent minimum wage makes for a good ecnomy.


What's a decent wage? And who REALLY pays? Do you think minimum wage earners are better off now than they were at any other time?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> But then why are those Republicans complaining about how much the poor really have? Telephones, television, even places to live. We've never paid a living wage, so we have no way of knowing what would happen.
> 
> I highly recommend Eugene Robinson's piece in the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/eugene-robinson-gop-poor-mouthing-on-the-minimum-wage/2014/02/24/12a6b192-9d8a-11e3-a050-dc3322a94fa7_story.html


But again, what's a living wage and who will pay for it? Do you think shareholders will give up their dividends? Or CEO's will give up their enormous salaries? Not likely!!!

Oh, and please don't make me read another article like the last one. Oh,OK! I'll try!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> But then why are those Republicans complaining about how much the poor really have? Telephones, television, even places to live. We've never paid a living wage, so we have no way of knowing what would happen.
> 
> I highly recommend Eugene Robinson's piece in the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/eugene-robinson-gop-poor-mouthing-on-the-minimum-wage/2014/02/24/12a6b192-9d8a-11e3-a050-dc3322a94fa7_story.html


Oh! Its the same one! Thank you!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> Ooh, that's my favorite word. I also like schmatta and ungapatchka (can't spell them correctly, I'm sure)


Haha! I'm getting an education in Yiddish! Whodda thought?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Even if it didn't make a dent, he's still a businessman. He'd sell. But you're probably right about the contracts. Still, if people refused to go to the games?


Even that might not work if the guy turns out to be as stubborn as he appears to be. I myself was disturbed at first at the thought that Sterling might be stripped of his property for being a hateful racist. It certainly didn't seem very democratic. What about freedom of speech?

But then I did some research and learned that the NBA does have the right to force an owner to sell if 3/4 of the board members vote yes. Sterling knew this when he signed on and apparently was OK with the idea--why's he crying foul now?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> Why is it always assumed that the buyer must bear the brunt of increasing the minimum wage?


Because they do???


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Well, I'll try. I'm sure none of the lefties here are in perfect agreement on any issue, but we do manage to get along pretty well.


Thanks! I mean it!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Told you so. She is a religious/critical thinker. Clearly they are not oxymoronic. Neb is okay.


Hahahaha! Just moronic, right?

Thanks, SQM!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Mike Nichols says that "spatula" should be a Yiddish word.


That's one I don't have to look up!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And they should understand how their actions are perceived by others.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't think she was trying to bait you. I think it was more of a celebration of conversion. Christians believe that redemption comes through the blood of CHRIST. They are happy when someone is saved. You don't have to agree with them but should understand what they believe to understand their motives.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> That is funny. I forget where you live , but can you use those words and have others understand you?
> 
> Did you have a Jewish lover when you were 19 years old? How did you learn those words?


I hate to say this because of how it sounds, but my very dear friend of 30 years is Jewish. She's a transplanted NYC girl and I'm a transplanted small town Minnesota girl. Over the years we've discovered that despite our different backgrounds we still have so many things in common. She also happens to be quite ill. She lives across the bay and has a weakened immune system, so we talk on the phone everyday.
There are some other Yiddish words I can't remember, but recognize when they come up in our conversation.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I hate to say this because of how it sounds, but my very dear friend of 30 years is Jewish. She's a transplanted NYC girl and I'm a transplanted small town Minnesota girl. Over the years we've discovered that despite our different backgrounds we still have so many things in common. She also happens to be quite ill. She lives across the bay and has a weakened immune system, so we talk on the phone everyday.
> There are some other Yiddish words I can't remember, but recognize when they come up in our conversation.


Heehee...I know what you mean--"I can't be a bigot because my best friend is ------"(fill in the blank).


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I don't believe your numbers or your dire predictions. In fact, there are plenty of economists that disagree with you as well. The deficit has been shrinking over the past few years, and job numbers are improving.
> 
> I don't pretend to know much about economics, but I suspect you don't either. If you know more than a person gets from reading one or two blogs, tell me.


Are you aware that they've changed the way they calculate pretty much everything? The numbers are all fixed. My number one source is John Williams' Shadow Stats. He calculates the numbers using the formulas that they used to use. For example: the govt says unemployment is under 7%. They are only counting those who are collecting unemployment insurance. Not those who have run out of benefits or those who have given up. Using the calculations that they USED to use unemployment is actually around 23%. They did the same thing with inflation. Inflation was always calculated by comparing the price of a market basket of goods. Well, they've changed what's in the basket. They say that inflation is only 2.5% but they've substituted chicken for steak etc... Real inflation is over 20%. Think about it, prices for food, gasoline and utilities have gone up more than 2.5%. You know that! They don't want people to panic and find out that we've actually been in a depression, so they "fix" the numbers, make them sound good. I'm not suggesting that only the democrats are doing this. I'm only saying that they're all lying to us. Here's a link exposing how they've "fixed" inflation.
http://www.shadowstats.com/article/no-438-public-comment-on-inflation-measurement


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think everyone should understand how others perceive them. You obviously feel insulted by CB's comments.



SQM said:


> Baloney.
> 
> She was baiting me. She was the nastiest of all on my visits to D and D. It's fine albeit a bit rude to talk to a Jewish person about conversion unless they seek it out. Christians are 1-2 billion strong and Jews are about 12-14 million strong. CB does not need me.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Agreed.



maysmom said:


> If I don't want to hear it, and I tell you I don't want to hear it, then that does make it wrong. You (general) are only doing it to save your own souls. Wrong!
> :twisted:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Why do you think she was talking to you in particular? I agree that she's not been very nice to you on d&p but I think she has a hard time letting go of past grievances. I think that it goes both ways. You're not being very nice when you run over here and bad mouth them. Why do you expect kindness when you have none to share over here? I think that things have deteriorated to the point of both sides looking for grievances. When I posted about the money changers, you accused me of blaming or criticizing Jews. The comment was in reference to bankers, not Jews. I only wish that people could carry on discussion without it devolving into personal attacks! Not all things are meant to be taken personally. Some are only comments. Please don't take offense at my comment as none was intended.


And your last comment can also be construed thusly,

Offense was taken by the person receiving my comment, therefore my comment is offensive.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What's a decent wage? And who REALLY pays? Do you think minimum wage earners are better off now than they were at any other time?


Knitter from Nebraska
a decent wage is that you can pay your Rent, have nutritious food on the table, shoes on your feet and adequate Health Care. We, the not rich, are all worse off than we have been for some time. Our Income is stagnant and the Prices are climbing.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Two taxpayers:

#1 Income of $15,000 per year @ 10% per year $1,500.

#2 Income of $500,000 per year @ 10% per year $50,000.

One is below poverty level trying to provide for themselves and/or a family. The other has much to spare. I don't see that as fair. Do you? If so, why?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> How do you feel about a flat tax, no deductions? If you made hardly anything, you'd pay hardly anything..if you made a lot, you'd pay a lot.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And some say Audrey Hepburn was prettier as she aged....like Paul Newman.



Poor Purl said:


> Well, here it is, without the explanation.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think Steve Forbes. Do you think he was in favor of flat tax for his benefit or someone else's?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Its the most fair because everyone would pay the same percentage. ALL income is taxed, no tax loopholes, no tax shelters. Those who make very little would pay very little. The percentage could be much lower because the wealthy would be paying on ALL of their income. The way the system is now, the very, very wealthy pay little or no taxes because after they take their deductions, they have very little "taxable" income. Same with corporations! They often end up paying no taxes because of the write offs they're given. I'd also like it to be a TRUE tax and eliminate all of the hidden taxes and fees.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> OK, I read it. It was very hard for me because I wanted to scream and pull my hair out. But I read it! Could someone, anyone? tell me where the money will come from? We're BROKE! 73% or 74% (I forget which) of our debt is now being drawn from the federal reserve. No one else will lend us money. The dollar is inches away from losing the international trade status. Do you understand that the dollar won't be worth the paper its written on, when that happens? We are living in perilous times. We no longer have the luxury to print money any time we want to. Other countries are already rebelling and a currency war is already happening. How do we pay for that when we can't even pay the interest on what we owe now?


Knitter from Nebraska
those arguments have been made MANY times in the past. It is an age old Sermon to keep the working people in check. Make them afraid and they obey. It is a kind of Slavery we are being squeezed into.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> That's true enough, Nebraska, but at least you were one-half of a very solid couple. I don't think enough can be said about the plight of single moms--while they're out working two or three jobs to make ends meet their kids are left alone and unsupervised. They're certainly not getting the guidance and support they need to do well in school and generally make it in life. Some folks wonder why these struggling moms ever chose to have children in the first place, but let's not forget that the divorce rate in our country is about 50%. Too many mothers are left in the lurch when the marriage breaks up.


I agree with you. We've been married for going on 38 years. But it wasn't always easy. Some people think that divorce is an easy solution to their problems. Years ago, I read about a study that compared couples who wanted a divorce. Some of the couples decided to stay together. After five years they compared and the majority of the ones who divorced were not happy and the majority of those who stayed together, were. We're also living in a society that doesn't condemn adultery. So many go looking when things get tough. Then there's things like alcoholism and drug addiction.

I think that a major problem with kids not getting the guidance and support they need is due in large part because parents have ceded their responsibilities to the government, not just single Moms. The government has created a nanny state where schools are supposed to meet a child's every need. Shouldn't the parents be doing that? I'm not objecting to helping people who NEED help! But when you do everything for someone, they stop doing it for themselves. Sometimes, easier isn't better. We're teaching a whole generation of girls that they might as well have a baby because somebody else will care for it, feed it, discipline it, educate it and do on. Independence is a wonderful thing! That's what we should be teaching. That's what we used to teach.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And some people say the 'big money' people are Jews. Of course they also say their best friends are Jewish. What impression does that give you?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't remember what I was saying but it fit the point I was trying to make. I never imagined anyone being offended. I don't know anyone who empathizes with the bankers. Am I'm not talking about the bank's employees! I'm talking the big money people!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Even that might not work if the guy turns out to be as stubborn as he appears to be. I myself was disturbed at first at the thought that Sterling might be stripped of his property for being a hateful racist. It certainly didn't seem very democratic. What about freedom of speech?
> 
> But then I did some research and learned that the NBA does have the right to force an owner to sell if 3/4 of the board members vote yes. Sterling knew this when he signed on and apparently was OK with the idea--why's he crying foul now?


That's what my hubby says but I don't think the NBA should be able to take away his constitutional rights. Oh well! He's a sleaze! I'm not gonna spend anymore time thinking about him. Yuk!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Picky, picky.



Poor Purl said:


> It was effective, all right, but they may have gotten a little carried away.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't know. (You KNEW that was coming.)



Poor Purl said:


> Forget who exists?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We gain the observation of our audience. Isn't that important? To both hear and understand perception?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So, who cares?!? Why even post this? What does anyone gain from this?


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree with you. We've been married for going on 38 years. But it wasn't always easy. Some people think that divorce is an easy solution to their problems. Years ago, I read about a study that compared couples who wanted a divorce. Some of the couples decided to stay together. After five years they compared and the majority of the ones who divorced were not happy and the majority of those who stayed together, were. We're also living in a society that doesn't condemn adultery. So many go looking when things get tough. Then there's things like alcoholism and drug addiction.
> 
> I think that a major problem with kids not getting the guidance and support they need is due in large part because parents have ceded their responsibilities to the government, not just single Moms. The government has created a nanny state where schools are supposed to meet a child's every need. Shouldn't the parents be doing that? I'm not objecting to helping people who NEED help! But when you do everything for someone, they stop doing it for themselves. Sometimes, easier isn't better. We're teaching a whole generation of girls that they might as well have a baby because somebody else will care for it, feed it, discipline it, educate it and do on. Independence is a wonderful thing! That's what we should be teaching. That's what we used to teach.


Knitter from Nebraska
Parents are too busy holding down often more than one job. 
IF YEARS ago divorce had not been such a dirty word, many more would have happened. Divorce had a stigma attached to it and just because fewer divorces happened does not mean people tried harder or were happier, they just had no choice.

When parents have difficulty making ends meet, the atmosphere at home is not the best and youngsters are looking or a happier Life and unfortunately girls get pregnant and hope to start their own happier family. Not a good beginning for all involved. These girls are not planning on being supported by the rest of us. It just happens that way and we must make changes so that these young people get a start that leads to a good Life. Education is the answer BUT again
the rich want many of us to remain needy, makes for cheap labor.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Heehee...I know what you mean--"I can't be a bigot because my best friend is ------"(fill in the blank).


It happens to the best of us! Haha!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I think everyone should understand how others perceive them. You obviously feel insulted by CB's comments.


Are you really trying to stir things up again? WHY?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put.



maysmom said:


> Indeed. As someone once said, "We are all entitled to our opinions, but we are not always entitled to voice them."
> 
> :?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Even that might not work if the guy turns out to be as stubborn as he appears to be. I myself was disturbed at first at the thought that Sterling might be stripped of his property for being a hateful racist. It certainly didn't seem very democratic. What about freedom of speech?
> 
> But then I did some research and learned that the NBA does have the right to force an owner to sell if 3/4 of the board members vote yes. Sterling knew this when he signed on and apparently was OK with the idea--why's he crying foul now?


Because he thought everyone agreed with him?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> a decent wage is that you can pay your Rent, have nutritious food on the table, shoes on your feet and adequate Health Care. We, the not rich, are all worse off than we have been for some time. Our Income is stagnant and the Prices are climbing.


The point I'm making is that minimum wage has been increased many, many times and its never changed the status quo for low income workers. I would like that it did, but it doesn't. The reason for that is that the employers are going to make a certain amount (whether you like it or not). When there expenses (ie wages) go up, they will raise their prices to cover them. The minimum wage worker now has to pay higher prices and is right back where he started. So, while I agree with much of what you say, an increase in minimum wage has never solved anything and only causes problems for the middle income people who must now pay more for everything without getting a raise. The only way for people to get ahead is for jobs to be plentiful. When employers compete for employees, pay goes up. When employees compete for jobs, pay goes down. Our government (at the behest of the major corporations who buy them off) passed new trade treaties and laws that make it advantageous for corporations to send the jobs elsewhere. They can have their goods manufactured for slave wages and sell them to us at full price. That's where we have to start! If they don't bring the jobs back, soon none of us will have a living wage.

PS: I don't really think they CAN bring the jobs back anymore, we're too indebted to China. So I don't know of a solution. I think they've destroyed us!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm just hoping to help you think. Never mind. Back to 'ignore.'



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Are you really trying to stir things up again? WHY?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Two taxpayers:
> 
> #1 Income of $15,000 per year @ 10% per year $1,500.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, it is fair! One has gotten an education or skills needed to perform the higher paying job. Are you suggesting that those who work hard to get ahead should only receive what the lazy man receives?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> those arguments have been made MANY times in the past. It is an age old Sermon to keep the working people in check. Make them afraid and they obey. It is a kind of Slavery we are being squeezed into.


You didn't answer my question! Tell me where the money will come from and then we can have a discussion.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You don't see judgement here? The 'poor' man is lazy? Never mind. You think I'm just stirring up trouble. Gone.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Unfortunately, it is fair! One has gotten an education or skills needed to perform the higher paying job. Are you suggesting that those who work hard to get ahead should only receive what the lazy man receives?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> And some people say the 'big money' people are Jews. Of course they also say their best friends are Jewish. What impression does that give you?


I find your comment offensive! So are we even?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> But again, what's a living wage and who will pay for it? Do you think shareholders will give up their dividends? Or CEO's will give up their enormous salaries? Not likely!!!
> 
> Oh, and please don't make me read another article like the last one. Oh,OK! I'll try!


I suggested; I didn't even insist. Nobody made you read it.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

All of the reasonable people are gone and so am I!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> And some people say the 'big money' people are Jews. Of course they also say their best friends are Jewish. What impression does that give you?


Thank you, Empress. That's what ran through my head, but I didn't want to seem contrary.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Picky, picky.


 :XD: :XD:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I don't know. (You KNEW that was coming.)


What was coming? (This could go on forever.)


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> Parents are too busy holding down often more than one job.
> IF YEARS ago divorce had not been such a dirty word, many more would have happened. Divorce had a stigma attached to it and just because fewer divorces happened does not mean people tried harder or were happier, they just had no choice.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Unfortunately, it is fair! One has gotten an education or skills needed to perform the higher paying job. Are you suggesting that those who work hard to get ahead should only receive what the lazy man receives?


You never answered my question about coal miners and janitors. They work hard - why do you call them lazy?

And again, how do you decide that one man works 1,000 times as hard as another, so deserves 1,000 times as much money? How do you pay one person $20,000 and another $20 million and call it fair?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> You don't see judgement here? The 'poor' man is lazy? Never mind. You think I'm just stirring up trouble. Gone.


No, you're not stirring up trouble. You happen to know how to read.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't think she's open minded at all. Just don't see it. And she accused me of 'stirring things up.' She's off my radar entirely.

You'll notice she did not answer my question.



Poor Purl said:


> Thank you, Empress. That's what ran through my head, but I didn't want to seem contrary.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You never answered my question about coal miners and janitors. They work hard - why do you call them lazy?
> 
> And again, how do you decide that one man works 1,000 times as hard as another, so deserves 1,000 times as much money? How do you pay one person $20,000 and another $20 million and call it fair?


I'm anxious to hear any attempt at an answer to your question.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you, Empress. That's what ran through my head, but I didn't want to seem contrary.


Ditto. But it is more powerful coming from our Aristocracy. Happy B'day Audrey. Bring her back soon.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think that a major problem with kids not getting the guidance and support they need is due in large part because parents have ceded their responsibilities to the government, not just single Moms. The government has created a nanny state where schools are supposed to meet a child's every need. Shouldn't the parents be doing that? I'm not objecting to helping people who NEED help! But when you do everything for someone, they stop doing it for themselves. Sometimes, easier isn't better. We're teaching a whole generation of girls that they might as well have a baby because somebody else will care for it, feed it, discipline it, educate it and do on. Independence is a wonderful thing! That's what we should be teaching. That's what we used to teach.


I guess I can only speak from my own experience, but I know that, as the mother of a twelve-year old, I'm far more involved with his schoolwork than my parents ever were with mine. As a sixth-grader he has from two to three hours homework every night, and if the work isn't completed I get called up on the carpet alongside my son. Then there are things like group science projects (this year Son's group met three times a week after school and on weekends, and of course he had to be driven), library trips (the school doesn't have a librarian, so weekly trips to the public are mandatory), sports (every student has to participate in at least one after-school sport each year), and volunteer work (so many hours per month).

Yes, my son does attend a charter school--but the situation wasn't terribly different in kindergarten or first grade, when he attended public school. He had homework every night in kindergarten, and the kids had to be able to read _Amelia Bedelia_ (anyone remember that?) by the end of the school year. When it looked as if my son wasn't going to reach this standard the school had no teaching aides available for extra coaching and instruction. They expected the parents to fill in all existing gaps in our child's education, and of course we did.

To sum it up: I don't see any evidence at all that schools are giving more to the kids than they used to. To me it seems quite the opposite--they push push push with their endless tests and their academic demands. No one is playing "Nanny" in our case, or in that of anyone we know.


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## Jules934 (May 7, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> !


Love Professor Mc Gonagall. She always did have a way with words. :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You never answered my question about coal miners and janitors. They work hard - why do you call them lazy?
> 
> And again, how do you decide that one man works 1,000 times as hard as another, so deserves 1,000 times as much money? How do you pay one person $20,000 and another $20 million and call it fair?


Not lazy in that they work hard, but lazy in the sense that they just accept it as their fate. They don't seek something better. Their father did it, so they will too. It takes a huge effort to step away from what you know, what is familiar. It takes a certain amount of risk. Oh, and keep in mind, some workers ARE lazy. Do they deserve the same pay as people who work hard? Who gets to decide?

I don't decide what a man is paid. He is paid whatever someone is willing to pay him. A lot of determining factors go into that. If you have special skills, and there are fewer people with those skills, you can get more for your services. If there is a shortage of workers, those workers can demand more. If there is a shortage of jobs, you're stuck taking whatever someone will give you. A job is worth what someone is willing to pay you. If you don't like it, change it!


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## Jules934 (May 7, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Empress Purl, did you see the old episode of The Carol Burnett show, where they did a skit in GTW? I still laugh when I think of that, Carol was wearing the green velvet drapes with the rod still in the shoulders.


OMG I remember it and it must have been shown decades ago!


----------



## Jules934 (May 7, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Empress Purl, did you see the old episode of The Carol Burnett show, where they did a skit in GTW? I still laugh when I think of that, Carol was wearing the green velvet drapes with the rod still in the shoulders.


OMG I remember it and it must have been shown decades ago!


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Not lazy in that they work hard, but lazy in the sense that they just accept it as their fate. They don't seek something better. Their father did it, so they will too. It takes a huge effort to step away from what you know, what is familiar. It takes a certain amount of risk. Oh, and keep in mind, some workers ARE lazy. Do they deserve the same pay as people who work hard? Who gets to decide?
> 
> I don't decide what a man is paid. He is paid whatever someone is willing to pay him. A lot of determining factors go into that. If you have special skills, and there are fewer people with those skills, you can get more for your services. If there is a shortage of workers, those workers can demand more. If there is a shortage of jobs, you're stuck taking whatever someone will give you. A job is worth what someone is willing to pay you. If you don't like it, change it!


You are assuming that every person who works at a low paying job has a choice, that s/he can change jobs. That isn't always true. Plus, there are plenty of people who work at low-paying jobs who work very hard.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> How beautiful. Are they yours?
> 
> All I ever see on D&D are recipes for things made with cream cheese. What is their obsession with cream cheese, which is definitely neither a health food nor a gourmet item?


Cream Cheese is nice and bland and white.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Cream Cheese is nice and bland and white.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Many Jews don't view Christianity as Good News since they have been trying to kill us for countless years.


As long as they tell keep people they're going straight to Hell if they aren't Christians, as some have told me, they can cut out the evangelism and proselytizing.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Many Jews don't view Christianity as Good News since they have been trying to kill us for countless years.


As long as they tell keep people they're going straight to Hell if they aren't Christians, as some have told me, they can cut out the evangelism and proselytizing.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> As long as they tell keep people they're going straight to Hell if they aren't Christians, as some have told me, they can cut out the evangelism and proselytizing.


Worth saying twice.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> You are assuming that every person who works at a low paying job has a choice, that s/he can change jobs. That isn't always true. Plus, there are plenty of people who work at low-paying jobs who work very hard.


I know from experience that if you don't like your lot in life, you CAN change it. Only having lazy thoughts will hold you back! Some simply accept what is placed before them, others seek more! I understand that since this depression has occurred, jobs are scarce and choices are limited. But before that, a person was only limited by the choices they made. You can't blame others for that. Neither can you hold responsible, the person who made good choices. History is full of examples of people who came from abject poverty who through hard work and perseverance, built a life of plenty! It all depends upon the choices one makes!


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> I think Steve Forbes. Do you think he was in favor of flat tax for his benefit or someone else's?


damemary
Forbes being for others? That would be a major switch. Flat Tax sounds good but has many flaws as it has been presented thus far. Perhaps flat tax rate according to income. Not just FLAT at one certain percentage across the board.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I guess I can only speak from my own experience, but I know that, as the mother of a twelve-year old, I'm far more involved with his schoolwork than my parents ever were with mine. As a sixth-grader he has from two to three hours homework every night, and if the work isn't completed I get called up on the carpet alongside my son. Then there are things like group science projects (this year Son's group met three times a week after school and on weekends, and of course he had to be driven), library trips (the school doesn't have a librarian, so weekly trips to the public are mandatory), sports (every student has to participate in at least one after-school sport each year), and volunteer work (so many hours per month).
> 
> Yes, my son does attend a charter school--but the situation wasn't terribly different in kindergarten or first grade, when he attended public school. He had homework every night in kindergarten, and the kids had to be able to read _Amelia Bedelia_ (anyone remember that?) by the end of the school year. When it looked as if my son wasn't going to reach this standard the school had no teaching aides available for extra coaching and instruction. They expected the parents to fill in all existing gaps in our child's education, and of course we did.
> 
> To sum it up: I don't see any evidence at all that schools are giving more to the kids than they used to. To me it seems quite the opposite--they push push push with their endless tests and their academic demands. No one is playing "Nanny" in our case, or in that of anyone we know.


susamos2000
tests are growing by leaps and bound just to make the Principals look good, children learn actually very little or nothing from them.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I guess I can only speak from my own experience, but I know that, as the mother of a twelve-year old, I'm far more involved with his schoolwork than my parents ever were with mine. As a sixth-grader he has from two to three hours homework every night, and if the work isn't completed I get called up on the carpet alongside my son. Then there are things like group science projects (this year Son's group met three times a week after school and on weekends, and of course he had to be driven), library trips (the school doesn't have a librarian, so weekly trips to the public are mandatory), sports (every student has to participate in at least one after-school sport each year), and volunteer work (so many hours per month).
> 
> Yes, my son does attend a charter school--but the situation wasn't terribly different in kindergarten or first grade, when he attended public school. He had homework every night in kindergarten, and the kids had to be able to read _Amelia Bedelia_ (anyone remember that?) by the end of the school year. When it looked as if my son wasn't going to reach this standard the school had no teaching aides available for extra coaching and instruction. They expected the parents to fill in all existing gaps in our child's education, and of course we did.
> 
> To sum it up: I don't see any evidence at all that schools are giving more to the kids than they used to. To me it seems quite the opposite--they push push push with their endless tests and their academic demands. No one is playing "Nanny" in our case, or in that of anyone we know.


My situation was quite similar. But unless you live under a rock, you've heard about the classrooms full of children who are not taken care of. When I volunteered in my own children's school, I encountered children who had no winter coat. As brand new winter coats were available to all children through the salvation army, some mothers wouldn't even go to the trouble of getting one. The SA set up locations throughout the city, so that's not an excuse. Some children only had one meal a day, school lunch! OK, so what did the mother do with the food stamps? I'm not talking about people running out of food at the end of the month! For some, it is a chronic condition. These people don't worry about taking care of their kids because they know the government will do it. Did you know that now, the schools send backpacks of food home with kids? The parents stop doing it because the government will. And they feel entitled! In times past, even when people were as poor as they could be, they took care of their children! Not anymore! They know the government will take care of them. The government is partly responsible for the breakdown of the family.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> susamos2000
> tests are growing by leaps and bound just to make the Principals look good, children learn actually very little or nothing from them.


I agree with this! The tests are meaningless! They use them to create fake numbers. The US was number one in education for many years. We are no more! We KNOW how to educate, so why don't we?!? I actually believe that they are not educating on purpose! I think they want two classes of people, them and the workers! It is difficult for ignorant people to stand up for themselves. They tend to let others rule over them.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I know from experience that if you don't like your lot in life, you CAN change it. Only having lazy thoughts will hold you back! Some simply accept what is placed before them, others seek more! I understand that since this depression has occurred, jobs are scarce and choices are limited. But before that, a person was only limited by the choices they made. You can't blame others for that. Neither can you hold responsible, the person who made good choices. History is full of examples of people who came from abject poverty who through hard work and perseverance, built a life of plenty! It all depends upon the choices one makes!


I'm sorry, I just happen to disagree with you on this. Yes, YOU could change your lot in life, but why do you think everyone can? Do you think a person with a below average IQ can ever hope to get out of a "dead end" job? Do you think every person who is raised in the projects can become a doctor--providing s/he isn't lazy? There is no equal opportunity for all in this country. There are other things besides making "poor choices" that keep people in low-paying jobs besides being "lazy." People who come "from abject poverty to build a life of plenty" are probably the exception rather than the rule


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree with this! The tests are meaningless! They use them to create fake numbers. The US was number one in education for many years. We are no more! We KNOW how to educate, so why don't we?!? I actually believe that they are not educating on purpose! I think they want two classes of people, them and the workers! It is difficult for ignorant people to stand up for themselves. They tend to let others rule over them.[
> 
> There is never enough tax money going to education. I wonder when the last year was that the US was number 1 in education? Who do you think is behind "not educating on purpose?" I don't know much about Common Core, but I do think kids need to have critical thinking skills.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> My situation was quite similar. But unless you live under a rock, you've heard about the classrooms full of children who are not taken care of. When I volunteered in my own children's school, I encountered children who had no winter coat. As brand new winter coats were available to all children through the salvation army, some mothers wouldn't even go to the trouble of getting one. The SA set up locations throughout the city, so that's not an excuse. Some children only had one meal a day, school lunch! OK, so what did the mother do with the food stamps? I'm not talking about people running out of food at the end of the month! For some, it is a chronic condition. These people don't worry about taking care of their kids because they know the government will do it. Did you know that now, the schools send backpacks of food home with kids? The parents stop doing it because the government will. And they feel entitled! In times past, even when people were as poor as they could be, they took care of their children! Not anymore! They know the government will take care of them. The government is partly responsible for the breakdown of the family.


I really don't agree that, in the past, the poor have always managed to cared for their children. In the 19th and early part of the 20th century orphanages were packed to overflowing with foundlings and older children who had been abandoned (either through death or desertion) by their guardians. Others lived on the streets and earned their bread by shining shoes, hawking newspapers, or begging for pennies. The problem of children whose parents can't care for them is certainly not a new one--the Greeks, after all, sold unwanted babies into slavery or simply tossed them in the nearest river.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> I'm sorry, I just happen to disagree with you on this. Yes, YOU could change your lot in life, but why do you think everyone can? Do you think a person with a below average IQ can ever hope to get out of a "dead end" job? Do you think every person who is raised in the projects can become a doctor--providing s/he isn't lazy? There is no equal opportunity for all in this country. There are other things besides making "poor choices" that keep people in low-paying jobs besides being "lazy." People who come "from abject poverty to build a life of plenty" are probably the exception rather than the rule


I agree with you on the mentally disabled. But even people from the projects make choices. And while being successful is the exception, it does go to show that anything is possible! If a person is lazy in thought, it leads to the same place as being lazy in deed. You can make opportunities available but you can't make people use them. We provide a free education to all, in this country. Those who work hard are afforded grants and scholarships to attend college. Those who don't work hard, complain about the struggle. You never hear successful people complain about the struggle. They're proud of what they've overcome! When you give to people, you remove the incentive to work. Even though it doesn't sound nice, it is true! History has proven that!


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> susamos2000
> tests are growing by leaps and bound just to make the Principals look good, children learn actually very little or nothing from them.


So true, Huck. My son and his classmates spend countless hours doing test prep. The teachers refer to the mock exams as "magic boxes", but they're not fooling anyone--particularly not the children.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> Knitter from Nebraska said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with this! The tests are meaningless! They use them to create fake numbers. The US was number one in education for many years. We are no more! We KNOW how to educate, so why don't we?!? I actually believe that they are not educating on purpose! I think they want two classes of people, them and the workers! It is difficult for ignorant people to stand up for themselves. They tend to let others rule over them.[
> ...


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> In the past, we educated people with very little money. Why does it cost so much now?  Because its all for show. It doesn't cost a lot to teach someone how to read and write, how to add and subtract. What does cost a lot of money is changing the curricula every few years and buying new books and tests. Math hasn't changed over the years (except for common core). Neither has reading, health or basic science. History isn't supposed to change. So why do they keep trying to find something new? Why do we start teaching computers before they even learn to read and write? Compared to computers, math and reading are boring. The basics are the foundation of education! They need to be learned first! And that doesn't cost a lot!
> 
> I believe they are spending lots of money ( which goes right back to the globalists ie Bill Gates and common core) and putting on a good show. But we already know how to educate children! We've done it for years!
> 
> Everyone needs to research common core!!! It is the most evil I've ever seen or heard!!!


You said you know nothing about common core yet you have strong opinions about it.

Science, technology, engineer and math are necessary for today's world. Computer skills are required in all fields now. Why not learn math on the computer - if it is more interesting than a cheap workbook? Common core requires more rigor in the classroom - the positive. Common core requires more standardized tests - the negative. Many students in public schools are not ready for more rigor - the negative. That's it in a nutshell.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Cream Cheese is nice and bland and white.


How appropriate. Thank you, Maid.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> As long as they tell keep people they're going straight to Hell if they aren't Christians, as some have told me, they can cut out the evangelism and proselytizing.


You, too? Is Catholicism not good enough to get you into Heaven? They're so picky.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> In the past, we educated people with very little money. Why does it cost so much now? Because its all for show. It doesn't cost a lot to teach someone how to read and write, how to add and subtract. What does cost a lot of money is changing the curricula every few years and buying new books and tests. Math hasn't changed over the years (except for common core). Neither has reading, health or basic science. History isn't supposed to change. So why do they keep trying to find something new? Why do we start teaching computers before they even learn to read and write? Compared to computers, math and reading are boring. The basics are the foundation of education! They need to be learned first! And that doesn't cost a lot!
> 
> I believe they are spending lots of money ( which goes right back to the globalists ie Bill Gates and common core) and putting on a good show. But we already know how to educate children! We've done it for years!
> 
> Everyone needs to research common core!!! It is the most evil I've ever seen or heard!!!


I believe your views about teaching kids is naive. I won't even tackle it. In a past life I worked in the public schools. There is always a shortage of funds, and if you want crumbling schools and teachers who have to spend their own money on supplies you can keep thinking there's plenty of money. I don't begin to understand your statements about putting on a good show.

And who just wants kids learning the basics? Why do you think that's all there is to learn??


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> You said you know nothing about common core yet you have strong opinions about it.
> 
> Science, technology, engineer and math are necessary for today's world. Computer skills are required in all fields now. Why not learn math on the computer - if it is more interesting than a cheap workbook? Common core requires more rigor in the classroom - the positive. Common core requires more standardized tests - the negative. Many students in public schools are not ready for more rigor - the negative. That's it in a nutshell.


I agree with you, SQM. We live in a global economy-- readin', 'riting, and 'rithmatic are simply not going to cut it. Most students in Europe and Asia speak multiple languages and study higher mathematics at a tender age. Trying to reach that same high standard and the ensuing expense is simply unavoidable.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree with you, SQM. We live in a global economy-- readin', 'riting, and 'rithmatic are simply not going to cut it. Most students in Europe and Asia speak multiple languages and study higher mathematics at a tender age. Trying to reach that same high standard and the ensuing expense is simply unavoidable.


 :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Back in nineties, educators came up with a "new" idea, using what they called "the five intelligences". They recognized that children learn differently. Some learn by seeing, some by saying, some by writing, some by reading, and some by doing (ie counting physical items). It was the biggest rage but what they failed to say was that children had been educated for years using those methods. They have since dropped that "new" old idea. Now they say children learn through testing. We know what works! We can go back to it at any time! Why don't we?

Common core teaches convoluted methods of solving math problems. The emphasis is on the method, not the answer. If you add 2+2 and come up with 5, it is counted as correct as long as you used the right method. They use product placement (ie name brands of items, such as "coke") to influence future buying. They could easily use generic as they've done in the past but research has shown sales increase when they use subliminal suggestion. Reading assignments at middle and high school levels include books that are absolutely pornographic. Don't believe me? Look it up! They teach propaganda as fact! It is a disaster of stupendous proportion! Everyone needs to educate themselves on common core! I've barely scratched the surface!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Back in nineties, educators came up with a "new" idea, using what they called "the five intelligences". They recognized that children learn differently. Some learn by seeing, some by saying, some by writing, some by reading, and some by doing (ie counting physical items). It was the biggest rage but what they failed to say was that children had been educated for years using those methods. They have since dropped that "new" old idea. Now they say children learn through testing. We know what works! We can go back to it at any time! Why don't we?
> 
> Common core teaches convoluted methods of solving math problems. The emphasis is on the method, not the answer. If you add 2+2 and come up with 5, it is counted as correct as long as you used the right method. They use product placement (ie name brands of items, such as "coke") to influence future buying. They could easily use generic as they've done in the past but research has shown sales increase when they use subliminal suggestion. Reading assignments at middle and high school levels include books that are absolutely pornographic. Don't believe me? Look it up! They teach propaganda as fact! It is a disaster of stupendous proportion! Everyone needs to educate themselves on common core! I've barely scratched the surface!


What should we go back to that you think works? I think to say that our schools are recommending pornography is maybe a little hyperbole? Propaganda as fact? Give us some examples. Who is "they?"


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Back in nineties, educators came up with a "new" idea, using what they called "the five intelligences". They recognized that children learn differently. Some learn by seeing, some by saying, some by writing, some by reading, and some by doing (ie counting physical items). It was the biggest rage but what they failed to say was that children had been educated for years using those methods. They have since dropped that "new" old idea. Now they say children learn through testing. We know what works! We can go back to it at any time! Why don't we?
> 
> Common core teaches convoluted methods of solving math problems. The emphasis is on the method, not the answer. If you add 2+2 and come up with 5, it is counted as correct as long as you used the right method. They use product placement (ie name brands of items, such as "coke") to influence future buying. They could easily use generic as they've done in the past but research has shown sales increase when they use subliminal suggestion. Reading assignments at middle and high school levels include books that are absolutely pornographic. Don't believe me? Look it up! They teach propaganda as fact! It is a disaster of stupendous proportion! Everyone needs to educate themselves on common core! I've barely scratched the surface!


http://www.corestandards.org/about-the-standards/myths-vs-facts/


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> You said you know nothing about common core yet you have strong opinions about it.
> 
> Science, technology, engineer and math are necessary for today's world. Computer skills are required in all fields now. Why not learn math on the computer - if it is more interesting than a cheap workbook? Common core requires more rigor in the classroom - the positive. Common core requires more standardized tests - the negative. Many students in public schools are not ready for more rigor - the negative. That's it in a nutshell.


Would you learn to run before you could walk? People can't begin to be educated before they receive the foundations of learning. You can't begin to learn science, engineering and math unless you can read, write, add, subtract, multiply and divide! Computers are wonderful tools! I firmly believe that! But unless you understand what you're putting into it, you become a slave to the computer and not vise versa. Common core does NOT demand rigor! It is nonsense! Pollution of the mind! Have you researched it! It cause such stress in some children that they throw up, wet their pants and cry at the thought of taking the tests. They've invented a new psychological syndrome called "Common Core syndrome". They're actually medicating kids to be able to deal with this! Another thing to note; the lessons follow a strict schedule. Even when a teacher KNOWS her class did not understand, she\he is NOT ALLOWED to reteach. They move onto the next lesson whether they learned it or not! Read about and learn what they are doing to our children!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Back in nineties, educators came up with a "new" idea, using what they called "the five intelligences". They recognized that children learn differently. Some learn by seeing, some by saying, some by writing, some by reading, and some by doing (ie counting physical items). It was the biggest rage but what they failed to say was that children had been educated for years using those methods. They have since dropped that "new" old idea. Now they say children learn through testing. We know what works! We can go back to it at any time! Why don't we?
> 
> Common core teaches convoluted methods of solving math problems. The emphasis is on the method, not the answer. If you add 2+2 and come up with 5, it is counted as correct as long as you used the right method. They use product placement (ie name brands of items, such as "coke") to influence future buying. They could easily use generic as they've done in the past but research has shown sales increase when they use subliminal suggestion. Reading assignments at middle and high school levels include books that are absolutely pornographic. Don't believe me? Look it up!


Just out of curiosity I did. Some my son has read (Esperanza Rising, Freak the Mighty, Diary of a Wimpy Kid, Hoot) and most I'm familiar with. I really don't see any problem with books like Dear Mr. Henshaw, A Wrinkle In Time, or The Giver. I do agree though that Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows is inappropriate for the middle-school set (too violent and intense).


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> You said you know nothing about common core yet you have strong opinions about it.
> 
> Science, technology, engineer and math are necessary for today's world. Computer skills are required in all fields now. Why not learn math on the computer - if it is more interesting than a cheap workbook? Common core requires more rigor in the classroom - the positive. Common core requires more standardized tests - the negative. Many students in public schools are not ready for more rigor - the negative. That's it in a nutshell.


Oh! And I DIDN'T say I know nothing about common core! I know a lot about it! Education has always been one of my pet research areas!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> I believe your views about teaching kids is naive. I won't even tackle it. In a past life I worked in the public schools. There is always a shortage of funds, and if you want crumbling schools and teachers who have to spend their own money on supplies you can keep thinking there's plenty of money. I don't begin to understand your statements about putting on a good show.
> 
> And who just wants kids learning the basics? Why do you think that's all there is to learn??


I don't think that true learning can take place without the basics! I'm saying that it costs very little to teach the basics, pencil, paper, chalkboard, books! While computers in kindergarten classes are fun, their use is limited before children learn the basics. The money would be better spent in the older grades after the basics have been mastered. I'm not against technology but I am for the proper use of it. It should not be used as a substitute for real education! Computers should be used as a tool, just as pencils are! If we give our children a strong foundation, they will progress to higher learning! Without that, they can't succeed!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Neb. my friend - there is no going back in education. I was in it for almost 40 years and the same complaints were made 40 years ago. The common core math is a bit different - takes some getting used to if you in your 60s and seeing 1st graders doing the simplest algebra and geometry but the kids love it. They see it as games. Computer literacy is the first biggest 'must". Cannot get any decent job without it. And all can be taught on it. 

Reread your initial post and you stated you knew nothing about cc. Check again.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree with you, SQM. We live in a global economy-- readin', 'riting, and 'rithmatic are simply not going to cut it. Most students in Europe and Asia speak multiple languages and study higher mathematics at a tender age. Trying to reach that same high standard and the ensuing expense is simply unavoidable.


Those children are also well beyond "readin', 'riting, and 'rithmatic" which is why they have surpassed us! That's why we are no longer number one but are instead number 36!!! Did you get that? We are number 36th in the world, for education! Don't you think we're doing something wrong?!?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I know from experience that if you don't like your lot in life, you CAN change it. Only having lazy thoughts will hold you back! Some simply accept what is placed before them, others seek more! I understand that since this depression has occurred, jobs are scarce and choices are limited. But before that, a person was only limited by the choices they made. You can't blame others for that. Neither can you hold responsible, the person who made good choices. History is full of examples of people who came from abject poverty who through hard work and perseverance, built a life of plenty! It all depends upon the choices one makes!


As a psychotherapist, I've always had a problem with the concept of laziness. I don't think it exists, at least not as a conscious effort to escape hard work. It exists in the minds of people who see themselves as superior because they have managed to accomplish things that others haven't - the "superior" see the others as lazy.

But human beings (like dogs, cats, elephants, probably even Japanese beetles) are born with a need to act in order to understand and conquer their environment. Given freedom to do as they choose, infants and toddlers act like miniature scientists. They don't need to work in order to earn their bread; it's something they want to do.

Unfortunately, things get in the way. Fear, depression, repeated failure, a feeling of helplessness all lead to an inability to plan and to act on such a plan. And those causes, as well as others, are learned from from experience. I'm not going to go on with this, because if you don't agree with me, there's nothing to discuss, and if you do agree with me, there's no reason to discuss it. But I'm always suspicious when one person calls another lazy, because it's the speaker's way of making her/himself feel superior.

I'm glad you managed to get out of a bad situation and improve your life. But most of us have. The ones who haven't are either very unhappy or try to dull the unhappiness by the use of various substances, such as alcohol, drugs, food,... The ones who aren't unhappy are probably sociopaths, who are a whole different breed of humans and are far from normal. But very few of the poor - or of any social or economic group - are sociopaths.

I have accomplished things that few of my friends have done, not because I'm better than they are but because I had a need to do them and the others didn't. I'm also sick of hearing people say "If I could do it, anyone can." It's just not true, and is actually insulting to the ones who can't, whatever "it" is.

Off my soapbox for now.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't think that true learning can take place without the basics! I'm saying that it costs very little to teach the basics, pencil, paper, chalkboard, books! While computers in kindergarten classes are fun, their use is limited before children learn the basics. The money would be better spent in the older grades after the basics have been mastered. I'm not against technology but I am for the proper use of it. It should not be used as a substitute for real education! Computers should be used as a tool, just as pencils are! If we give our children a strong foundation, they will progress to higher learning! Without that, they can't succeed!


Please post the list of required reading that you state is pornography.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> What should we go back to that you think works? I think to say that our schools are recommending pornography is maybe a little hyperbole? Propaganda as fact? Give us some examples. Who is "they?"


I will post some links later!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> As a psychotherapist, I've always had a problem with the concept of laziness. I don't think it exists, at least not as a conscious effort to escape hard work. It exists in the minds of people who see themselves as superior because they have managed to accomplish things that others haven't - the "superior" see the others as lazy.
> 
> But human beings (like dogs, cats, elephants, probably even Japanese beetles) are born with a need to act in order to understand and conquer their environment. Given freedom to do as they choose, infants and toddlers act like miniature scientists. They don't need to work in order to earn their bread; it's something they want to do.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Those children are also well beyond "readin', 'riting, and 'rithmatic" which is why they have surpassed us! That's why we are no longer number one but are instead number 36!!! Did you get that? We are number 36th in the world, for education! Don't you think we're doing something wrong?!?


Of course we are doing something very wrong. We are allowing the GOP to cow the government into cutting funds to Education. (OOO. I used the word 'cow')


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree with this! The tests are meaningless! They use them to create fake numbers. The US was number one in education for many years. We are no more! We KNOW how to educate, so why don't we?!? I actually believe that they are not educating on purpose! I think they want two classes of people, them and the workers! It is difficult for ignorant people to stand up for themselves. They tend to let others rule over them.


I don't know when "The US was number on in education." I remember seeing a comparison - in the sixties, I think - between what US students learned in high school and what European students learned and was appalled at the difference. For one thing, most European kids came out knowing the kinds of mathematics and literature that our kids didn't get until college.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> As a psychotherapist, I've always had a problem with the concept of laziness. I don't think it exists, at least not as a conscious effort to escape hard work. It exists in the minds of people who see themselves as superior because they have managed to accomplish things that others haven't - the "superior" see the others as lazy.
> 
> But human beings (like dogs, cats, elephants, probably even Japanese beetles) are born with a need to act in order to understand and conquer their environment. Given freedom to do as they choose, infants and toddlers act like miniature scientists. They don't need to work in order to earn their bread; it's something they want to do.
> 
> ...


Really?!? Then how do you explain this guy?
http://dailycaller.com/2013/08/10/the-new-face-of-snap-food-stamps-buy-lobster-for-surfer-and-his-buddies/


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I'm sorry, I just happen to disagree with you on this. Yes, YOU could change your lot in life, but why do you think everyone can? Do you think a person with a below average IQ can ever hope to get out of a "dead end" job? Do you think every person who is raised in the projects can become a doctor--providing s/he isn't lazy? There is no equal opportunity for all in this country. There are other things besides making "poor choices" that keep people in low-paying jobs besides being "lazy." People who come "from abject poverty to build a life of plenty" are probably the exception rather than the rule


I should have read this before going into my rant. It would have saved me a lot of time. Thank you, Al.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

As a special ed teacher, I never accepted the concept of lazy either. Usually these students were in survival mode and learning was low on their list - usually from serious family issues, learning disabilities and/or depression. Laziness is a symptom of some underlying issue.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> You said you know nothing about common core yet you have strong opinions about it.
> 
> Science, technology, engineer and math are necessary for today's world. Computer skills are required in all fields now. Why not learn math on the computer - if it is more interesting than a cheap workbook? Common core requires more rigor in the classroom - the positive. Common core requires more standardized tests - the negative. Many students in public schools are not ready for more rigor - the negative. That's it in a nutshell.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> Of course we are doing something very wrong. We are allowing the GOP to cow the government into cutting funds to Education. (OOO. I used the word 'cow')


You read my mind, SQM. We Americans don't place nearly enough emphasis on education, and going to Congress for adequate funding is a futile as negotiating with Scrooge MacDuck. My husband is from Eastern Europe, and he was stunned at the sight of our shabby rabbit-hutch-style schools--even more horrified when our son started kindergarten and he found out what was going on behind those crumbling walls. It's an absolute disgrace.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> Please post the list of required reading that you state is pornography.


http://eagnews.org/10th-grade-class-reads-erotic-novel-recommended-by-common-core-proponents/
http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2014/02/21/common-core-pornography/
http://news.yahoo.com/fifty-shades-common-core-much-porn-too-much-125010622.html

Want more? Just Google "common core porn"


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Really?!? Then how do you explain this guy?
> http://dailycaller.com/2013/08/10/the-new-face-of-snap-food-stamps-buy-lobster-for-surfer-and-his-buddies/


I explain this guy by saying he is a Republican because he talks to Fox and his problem goes back to ancient times when Aesop wrote The Ant and the Grasshopper. Nothing new here - just old human nature for some.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> You read my mind, SQM. We Americans don't place nearly enough emphasis on education, and going to Congress for adequate funding is a futile as negotiating with Scrooge MacDuck. My husband is from Eastern Europe, and he was stunned at the sight of our shabby rabbit-hutch-style schools--even more horrified when our son started kindergarten and he found out what was going on behind those crumbling walls. It's an absolute disgrace.


I did read your mind and there are a lot of naughty thoughts in there! Are you from an urban area?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Really?!? Then how do you explain this guy?
> http://dailycaller.com/2013/08/10/the-new-face-of-snap-food-stamps-buy-lobster-for-surfer-and-his-buddies/


I don't explain him. There have been so many fake stories that I can't believe this is real. How would you explain Ronald Reagan's "Welfare Queen," who never existed?

And don't forget the sociopaths.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> As a special ed teacher, I never accepted the concept of lazy either. Usually these students were in survival mode and learning was low on their list - usually from serious family issues, learning disabilities and/or depression. Laziness is a symptom of some underlying issue.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Of course we are doing something very wrong. We are allowing the GOP to cow the government into cutting funds to Education. (OOO. I used the word 'cow')


http://rossieronline.usc.edu/u-s-education-versus-the-world-infographic/

If money is primary to education, why are the countries who are beating us, spending less? A LOT less!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> I did read your mind and there are a lot of naughty thoughts in there! Are you from an urban area?


Kind of--I was born and raised in the suburban Bay Area, but I lived in SF for about fifteen years and went to college there as well.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> http://rossieronline.usc.edu/u-s-education-versus-the-world-infographic/
> 
> If money is primary to education, why are the countries who are beating us, spending less? A LOT less!


For the same reason the countries beating us in healthcare outcomes spend a lot less: they haven't turned big business loose on education. You know, the companies that make up the useless tests and sell them to state depts. of ed., the charter schools that pay no rent and siphon the best students away from public schools, the textbook producers that produce know-nothing textbooks.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I don't know when "The US was number on in education." I remember seeing a comparison - in the sixties, I think - between what US students learned in high school and what European students learned and was appalled at the difference. For one thing, most European kids came out knowing the kinds of mathematics and literature that our kids didn't get until college.


I did a quick look. Results were all over the place. Some sites say the US was never #1. Others say we were 20 years ago. Some say we were #1 in some categories, but not math. I found one site that said we were #24 in 2006 and another that said we were now #36. So, I don't really know and will back down from my statement that we were #1. In my own opinion, I don't think there's any doubt that education is on a decline in the US. I've never seen any facts or statistics showing that lack of spending is to blame. If anyone has those, please share them.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> As a special ed teacher, I never accepted the concept of lazy either. Usually these students were in survival mode and learning was low on their list - usually from serious family issues, learning disabilities and/or depression. Laziness is a symptom of some underlying issue.


I've never made the assertion that special needs kids/adults were lazy. And in fact I excepted them in my follow up comment.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> You read my mind, SQM. We Americans don't place nearly enough emphasis on education, and going to Congress for adequate funding is a futile as negotiating with Scrooge MacDuck. My husband is from Eastern Europe, and he was stunned at the sight of our shabby rabbit-hutch-style schools--even more horrified when our son started kindergarten and he found out what was going on behind those crumbling walls. It's an absolute disgrace.


Adequate funding? How much is adequate? To my knowledge and at least here in Nebraska, the federal government doesn't fund infrastructure repairs. Each school district is responsible for that. Local property taxes fund the individual school districts and bonds are issued for capital repairs. Is it different elsewhere? Does the federal fund capital repairs in other states?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I explain this guy by saying he is a Republican because he talks to Fox and his problem goes back to ancient times when Aesop wrote The Ant and the Grasshopper. Nothing new here - just old human nature for some.


My response was to Poor Purl. She said she didn't think laziness existed. I was merely pointing out one very obvious example.and yes, I agree with you. Nothing new here.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> http://eagnews.org/10th-grade-class-reads-erotic-novel-recommended-by-common-core-proponents/
> http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2014/02/21/common-core-pornography/
> http://news.yahoo.com/fifty-shades-common-core-much-porn-too-much-125010622.html
> 
> Want more? Just Google "common core porn"


If you Google common core porn, you'll get websites (conservative) that consider books porn that I may not think are porn. If you Google something without "porn" in the search phrase---like "common core required reading" you might get a different list. One shouldn't limit oneself to conservative websites if one wants a wide variety of viewpoints, should one?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Adequate funding? How much is adequate? To my knowledge and at least here in Nebraska, the federal government doesn't fund infrastructure repairs. Each school district is responsible for that. Local property taxes fund the individual school districts and bonds are issued for capital repairs. Is it different elsewhere? Does the federal fund capital repairs in other states?


If you talk to people who have worked in public schools for any length of time, you would know that money is ALWAYS an issue. When I first moved to California and saw my son's first school, I wanted to cry. There are budget shortages in every single area of public school functioning---not to mention the fact that teachers are never paid enough


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I don't explain him. There have been so many fake stories that I can't believe this is real. How would you explain Ronald Reagan's "Welfare Queen," who never existed?
> 
> And don't forget the sociopaths.


Well, I happen to personally know a welfare queen! Believe that! My daughter's biological mother dropped her off with us because she didn't want to take care of her. She didn't want to give us legal custody because she would lose benefits. After two years of her trying to extort money from us, we filed for adoption. After a two year legal battle, we we able to adopt her. Her bio mom then had another baby (this was actually her third, long story) She lived free in a beautiful new salvation army shelter, she had a private room. She was given EVERYTHING she needed for the baby. She was given three meals a day, classes, counseling, and job assistance. She received just over $300 a month in ADC and just over $200 a month in food stamps,which she didn't need because the shelter fed them. There was a guard at the shelter who would "buy" their food stamps st half their value. She would go shopping with him and pay for his groceries with her card, in exchange for cash. So now she had all of her expenses paid and $400 cash every month. What did she do with it? For one, she bought a DVD player. This was when they were brand new and very expensive. We couldn't afford one! Eventually she got her very own apartment for free and let her boyfriend move in. He beat her baby to death and she only worried that without the baby she would lose the apartment. So, yes! There really are lazy people! You're lucky not to have known them!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> For the same reason the countries beating us in healthcare outcomes spend a lot less: they haven't turned big business loose on education. You know, the companies that make up the useless tests and sell them to state depts. of ed., the charter schools that pay no rent and siphon the best students away from public schools, the textbook producers that produce know-nothing textbooks.


I agree with you on that!!!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> But you _can_ fix some things with taxes. During the 50s, 60s, and 70s, when the top marginal tax rate was really high, the top players would put their money back into the business rather than take it home and pay all that tax on it (almost 90% in some cases). The middle class was doing fine, and the rich did not complain that they were too poor, or even that they were being picked on. Now that they're making obscene returns with low taxes, they complain that they're not getting the respect they've "earned."


The rich also use to have respect for those who worked for them and called them family and wanted them to do well, but things have changed. In my opinion. the rich have become very greedy and want more and more for themselves and less for their employees. It is their employees making all this money for them and they are just sitting behind their desk trying to find more ways to keep it in their pocket and not share with those employees. How many homes can you live in at one time? How many cars can you drive on a daily basis? How much time do you need to spend the money you make. Do you need to get really creative to come up with new ways to spend your money like for a car elevator? Do you need to get really creative to find new loopholes and new places to stash it off shore? 
I have heard many republicans say they would like to do away with the minimum wage and some think the states should be able to each set their own. In the republican controlled states, under those circumstances, do you think there would be a minimum wage? Do you think it would be a livable wage or would we be back to $2 or $3 dollars an hour? Imagine making $3 an hour and no food stamps.


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## nitnana (Feb 3, 2013)

Stupid Question - but when I see L.O.L.L..#6, I take it I missed the first 5. Haha! I check Chit Chat every day. How do I miss a thread like this? And 5 times!! What does it mean? Is it only for the few who understand it? Or can anyone jump in? That is if I knew what you were discussing. I am confused. Thanx - for whoever can help me out there. You will tell me what the initials stand for, too - no?


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It would make sense except that you're forgetting something. The stock holders MUST get their dividends! They WILL get their dividends! The price of goods and services must go up to cover the increased costs of employment because if the shareholders complain, the CEO loses his job. He gets the big bucks to guarantee good dividends. Its all about the money. So if the low income worker has to pay more for goods and services, where did his raise go? Is he really better off?


We have to get away from the ceo believing he deserves a $5 million dollar bonus. There is enough money there for the ceo, the shareholders and the hourly employee to all be paid well. It's just that the top has gotten very greedy as of late.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

nitnana said:


> Stupid Question - but when I see L.O.L.L..#6, I take it I missed the first 5. Haha! I check Chit Chat every day. How do I miss a thread like this? And 5 times!! What does it mean? Is it only for the few who understand it? Or can anyone jump in? That is if I knew what you were discussing. I am confused. Thanx - for whoever can help me out there. You will tell me what the initials stand for, too - no?


I think it means "Ladies of the Liberal Left" or something similar.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> If you Google common core porn, you'll get websites (conservative) that consider books porn that I may not think are porn. If you Google something without "porn" in the search phrase---like "common core required reading" you might get a different list. One shouldn't limit oneself to conservative websites if one wants a wide variety of viewpoints, should one?


So because they're conservative sites, you won't read them? Plenty of liberal links have been posted here and I at least read them!

When a book graphically describes a man raping a child, do you not consider that porn? What about incest? When a book describes graphically, the bruises between her legs and describes graphically someone massaging soap between her legs? It gets worse! I just cant write it! Read the links! It is so disgusting, that at the age of (almost) 59, I can say that I've never read such filth!


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

NJG said:


> The rich also use to have respect for those who worked for them and called them family and wanted them to do well, but things have changed. In my opinion. the rich have become very greedy and want more and more for themselves and less for their employees. It is their employees making all this money for them and they are just sitting behind their desk trying to find more ways to keep it in their pocket and not share with those employees. How many homes can you live in at one time? How many cars can you drive on a daily basis? How much time do you need to spend the money you make. Do you need to get really creative to come up with new ways to spend your money like for a car elevator? Do you need to get really creative to find new loopholes and new places to stash it off shore?
> I have heard many republicans say they would like to do away with the minimum wage and some think the states should be able to each set their own. In the republican controlled states, under those circumstances, do you think there would be a minimum wage? Do you think it would be a livable wage or would we be back to $2 or $3 dollars an hour? Imagine making $3 an hour and no food stamps.


I once ventured the opinion that the rich are too rich. I received some quite unpleasant responses: someone asked me, "How dare you say what is too much money?" I was quite new to KP and a little surprised. I'm afraid I have to treat some of the American posters on here as an anthropological study, because I really don't understand them (not the LOLLs, of course).


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> If you talk to people who have worked in public schools for any length of time, you would know that money is ALWAYS an issue. When I first moved to California and saw my son's first school, I wanted to cry. There are budget shortages in every single area of public school functioning---not to mention the fact that teachers are never paid enough


Money is always an issue and always will be! However much we spend, we will always need more. How about we cut the enormous salaries of the administrators? Or perhaps, cut back on the number of administrators?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So because they're conservative sites, you won't read them? Plenty of liberal links have been posted here and I at least read them!
> 
> When a book graphically describes a man raping a child, do you not consider that porn? What about incest? When a book describes graphically, the bruises between her legs and describes graphically someone massaging soap between her legs? It gets worse! I just cant write it! Read the links! It is so disgusting, that at the age of (almost) 59, I can say that I've never read such filth!


Nowhere did I say I didn't read the links, and I haven't read the book(s)of which you speak. I would agree that what you've written does not sound like good reading material for teens, but I would check out the books for myself. I also didn't read that those books were required reading.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> If you talk to people who have worked in public schools for any length of time, you would know that money is ALWAYS an issue. When I first moved to California and saw my son's first school, I wanted to cry. There are budget shortages in every single area of public school functioning---not to mention the fact that teachers are never paid enough


PS I worked side by side with teachers for over 20 years. So I an familiar with the issues.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

NJG said:


> The rich also use to have respect for those who worked for them and called them family and wanted them to do well, but things have changed. In my opinion. the rich have become very greedy and want more and more for themselves and less for their employees. It is their employees making all this money for them and they are just sitting behind their desk trying to find more ways to keep it in their pocket and not share with those employees. How many homes can you live in at one time? How many cars can you drive on a daily basis? How much time do you need to spend the money you make. Do you need to get really creative to come up with new ways to spend your money like for a car elevator? Do you need to get really creative to find new loopholes and new places to stash it off shore?
> 
> In my opinion, its because the super rich have bought out the merely rich and they have no heart at all! They want to own everything and everyone!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think that the First Amendment guarantees the right to be as vile in our expression as we want. That doesn't mean that we have to listen to them or do business with them. I think that Sterling can be a racist if he wants to but that if he does he will be punished by a society that doesn't approve. All of his employees should quit. People should refuse to go to his games or rent his apartments. He would be forced to sell by virtue of economics. Then someone else will come along and buy it and KNOW what will happen if he does the same.


Well the players were ready to walk off the floor if the commissioner had not made the decision he did. To expect all employees to quit is probably asking a lot when people need to be paid to survive. It would be easy enough for everyone to not go to games, but then employees that work at those games suffer. Moving out of your apartment is also asking a lot. That all costs money and you have to have a place to go. The first amendment may protect his freedom of speech, but the NBA also has rules and his money shouldn't buy him the right to break those rules. I just wonder how many other people agree with him, but have just been smart enough to keep quiet?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

NJG said:


> We have to get away from the ceo believing he deserves a $5 million dollar bonus. There is enough money there for the ceo, the shareholders and the hourly employee to all be paid well. It's just that the top has gotten very greedy as of late.


How can we stay away from the CEO believing or receiving anything? Major shareholders hire them because they bring more money to them. They don't care whether he does it on the backs of the workers! Yes! They're greedy! But "we" can't do anything about it. You might say we should regulate them. OK, but then if they move their money elsewhere, people lose the jobs altogether. "They" own the politicians, ALL of them! The politicians SAY they want to fix things but they don't! Because you don't bite the hand that feeds you!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> I think it means "Ladies of the Liberal Left" or something similar.


OMG! What am I doing here?!? Hahahaha!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> PS I worked side by side with teachers for over 20 years. So I an familiar with the issues.


And do you still think money is not an issue?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

NJG said:


> Well the players were ready to walk off the floor if the commissioner had not made the decision he did. To expect all employees to quit is probably asking a lot when people need to be paid to survive. It would be easy enough for everyone to not go to games, but then employees that work at those games suffer. Moving out of your apartment is also asking a lot. That all costs money and you have to have a place to go. The first amendment may protect his freedom of speech, but the NBA also has rules and his money shouldn't buy him the right to break those rules. I just wonder how many other people agree with him, but have just been smart enough to keep quiet?


I agree, BUT what are the costs to our society of allowing these things to exist? Sometimes you HAVE to stand up for what's right, even if it costs you.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> OMG! What am I doing here?!? Hahahaha!


You entered at your own risk. (Ominous music)


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> And do you still think money is not an issue?


Honestly??? Sometimes it is an issue between what we want and what we need. At every economic level, those things vary.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Has anything ever changed? Have low income workers EVER gotten ahead or even gotten by? Minimum wage has been increased many times. When I first started working it was $1.80 an hour. Minimum wage workers are no better off than they were then. So, while it sounds good, it does nothing to help people.


When the cost of living goes up the minimum wage has to go up too. You can't really mean that minimum wage workers are no better off so it should stay at $1.80 or at $7.25 as a raise doesn't help them. Maybe they will be no better off, in your opinion, but you can't just forget them. There was a day when the minimum wage jobs were for the school kids, but that day is long gone. The population has increased so much that now those jobs are held by people supporting families, and it will never go back to what it was in the past.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> You entered at your own risk. (Ominous music)


I know. I know. Just thought it was funny! I didn't know what it stood for either.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> But then why are those Republicans complaining about how much the poor really have? Telephones, television, even places to live. We've never paid a living wage, so we have no way of knowing what would happen.
> 
> I highly recommend Eugene Robinson's piece in the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/eugene-robinson-gop-poor-mouthing-on-the-minimum-wage/2014/02/24/12a6b192-9d8a-11e3-a050-dc3322a94fa7_story.html


Yes I actually heard a republican say they even have "refrigerators." Of course he was complaining that they had air conditioning too. How dare they? Like when Romney said the ambulance would pick them up at their "apartment" if they needed to go to the hospital. Yes, we all know poor people live in "apartments," they certainly don't own a house.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

NJG said:


> When the cost of living goes up the minimum wage has to go up too. You can't really mean that minimum wage workers are no better off so it should stay at $1.80 or at $7.25 as a raise doesn't help them. Maybe they will be no better off, in your opinion, but you can't just forget them. There was a day when the minimum wage jobs were for the school kids, but that day is long gone. The population has increased so much that now those jobs are held by people supporting families, and it will never go back to what it was in the past.


I'm saying that minimum wage earners were in the same position in 1973 that they are in now, in 2014! Fighting to make ends meet, robbing Peter to pay Paul, scraping to put food on the table. Minimum wage has increased many, many times since then, but it hasn't worked! Minimum wage goes up, prices go up! You're chasing your tail and nothing changes except that middle income workers pay more too! Your middle income salary becomes worth much less and pretty soon, we won't have middle income workers. And I think that's their intent!

Another thing: the real problem is not so much that the population has increased, its that the jobs have decreased! The politicians on both side of the aisle made it possible for them to have the work done elsewhere for slave wages! The jobs are gone!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

NJG said:


> Yes I actually heard a republican say they even have "refrigerators." Of course he was complaining that they had air conditioning too. How dare they? Like when Romney said the ambulance would pick them up at their "apartment" if they needed to go to the hospital. Yes, we all know poor people live in "apartments," they certainly don't own a house.


They actually have a plan called "Agenda 21". Part of that plan will have all of US living in tiny little apartments. China instituted it first. People live and work in the same building. They have tiny cubicles to sleep in. A cafeteria and shops on one floor etc...They don't leave because everything is right there. They want this for the whole world, well, except for themselves. Read about Agenda 21. Its real! My senator even confirmed this to me.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Well, I happen to personally know a welfare queen! Believe that! My daughter's biological mother dropped her off with us because she didn't want to take care of her. She didn't want to give us legal custody because she would lose benefits. After two years of her trying to extort money from us, we filed for adoption. After a two year legal battle, we we able to adopt her. Her bio mom then had another baby (this was actually her third, long story) She lived free in a beautiful new salvation army shelter, she had a private room. She was given EVERYTHING she needed for the baby. She was given three meals a day, classes, counseling, and job assistance. She received just over $300 a month in ADC and just over $200 a month in food stamps,which she didn't need because the shelter fed them. There was a guard at the shelter who would "buy" their food stamps st half their value. She would go shopping with him and pay for his groceries with her card, in exchange for cash. So now she had all of her expenses paid and $400 cash every month. What did she do with it? For one, she bought a DVD player. This was when they were brand new and very expensive. We couldn't afford one! Eventually she got her very own apartment for free and let her boyfriend move in. He beat her baby to death and she only worried that without the baby she would lose the apartment. So, yes! There really are lazy people! You're lucky not to have known them!


This woman sounds worse than lazy. She's a criminal in so many ways. And the fact that she had no feeling for her own children indicates that she's wired all wrong - exactly what we call a sociopath. Your daughter is so fortunate to have had you to care for her, rather than the woman and her insane boyfriend.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm saying that minimum wage earners were in the same position in 1973 that they are in now, in 2014! Fighting to make ends meet, robbing Peter to pay Paul, scraping to put food on the table. Minimum wage has increased many, many times since then, but it hasn't worked! Minimum wage goes up, prices go up! You're chasing your tail and nothing changes except that middle income workers pay more too! Your middle income salary becomes worth much less and pretty soon, we won't have middle income workers. And I think that's their intent!
> 
> Another thing: the real problem is not so much that the population has increased, its that the jobs have decreased! The politicians on both side of the aisle made it possible for them to have the work done elsewhere for slave wages! The jobs are gone!


I agree that jobs need to be here in the US, but you need to brush up on your economic history regarding minimum wage and its benefits for workers.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Why is it always assumed that the buyer must bear the brunt of increasing the minimum wage?


Because the ones setting the prices are greedy and becoming more so every day.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> They actually have a plan called "Agenda 21". Part of that plan will have all of US living in tiny little apartments. China instituted it first. People live and work in the same building. They have tiny cubicles to sleep in. A cafeteria and shops on one floor etc...They don't leave because everything is right there. They want this for the whole world, well, except for themselves. Read about Agenda 21. Its real! My senator even confirmed this to me.


I need to introduce you to my older brother. He believes in all these theories that are a bit way out. Actually Agenda 21 is already here in NYC - the new apts are teeny tiny but nicely appointed. However, it is not a global conspiracy but the desire of too many people wanting to live on limited space. China, as we all know, is vastly overpopulated, so they also need to create a miracle to house all of those who require housing. I thought LOLL meant Laughing Old Leftie Ladies. Whatever!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Honestly??? Sometimes it is an issue between what we want and what we need. At every economic level, those things vary.


I'm not talking about us (as individuals,)I'm talking about funding the schools receive.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> First of all, it is illicit when their friends are the ones making laws, writing regulations or granting government contracts. That's what I was referring to. I can't think of any billionaires who haven't been helped by anyone of those things.
> 
> My heart aches for people who have to work so hard or accept much risk. But think about it...as long as people are willing to do those jobs for that pay, it will happen. Some feel they have no choice but (not counting since the recession) really they choose for a reason. Some don't want to go to college. Some don't want to relocate. Some already have too many responsibilities due to choices they made in the past. Everyone makes their choices for their own reasons. Some make no choice and just accept whats easiest to get.
> 
> I know what its like to be poor. When we were younger and had three children, we were living on $12,000. It wasn't much. Things were very tough. My husband worked full time and went to school part time. I'm not unsympathetic but I know that we would not be where we are today, if we had not gone through that. We took on debt to build a future. It took years to pay off those school loans. We could have stayed where we were or we could change it. We changed it.


Now imagine a catastrophic illness, or unemployment, or the death of a spouse or any number of things that happen to people and then try to pick up the pieces and go on. Everyone goes through things, some more than others, and just because one person makes it through, doesn't mean the next person will or even has the ability to move on. But that is what we always hear from those on the right, I did it and so can everyone else. Everyone is different and has their own story.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> The rich also use to have respect for those who worked for them and called them family and wanted them to do well, but things have changed. In my opinion. the rich have become very greedy and want more and more for themselves and less for their employees. It is their employees making all this money for them and they are just sitting behind their desk trying to find more ways to keep it in their pocket and not share with those employees. How many homes can you live in at one time? How many cars can you drive on a daily basis? How much time do you need to spend the money you make. Do you need to get really creative to come up with new ways to spend your money like for a car elevator? Do you need to get really creative to find new loopholes and new places to stash it off shore?
> I have heard many republicans say they would like to do away with the minimum wage and some think the states should be able to each set their own. In the republican controlled states, under those circumstances, do you think there would be a minimum wage? Do you think it would be a livable wage or would we be back to $2 or $3 dollars an hour? Imagine making $3 an hour and no food stamps.


When so many businesses (even corporations) were family-owned, there probably was a more personal relationship between owner and worker. It's tough to be hard-nosed when you grew up with the man who now works for you. That way of doing business is almost gone, and the families who still run the businesses are people like the Waltons, who have an endless desire for more and more money. Isn't it odd that a person with an endless desire for liquor or food is thought to have something wrong with him/her but an endless desire for money makes you someone to be admired?

During the 50s, 60s, and 70s, there was a feeling that this was one country, that we were all in it together. It wasn't just poor men who fought in WWII; rich men, movie stars, everyone fought. Now it isn't one country any more. It saddens me.

But to say that there's no place for a minimum wage is to say that some people are just there to be used and aren't even of the same species.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

nitnana said:


> Stupid Question - but when I see L.O.L.L..#6, I take it I missed the first 5. Haha! I check Chit Chat every day. How do I miss a thread like this? And 5 times!! What does it mean? Is it only for the few who understand it? Or can anyone jump in? That is if I knew what you were discussing. I am confused. Thanx - for whoever can help me out there. You will tell me what the initials stand for, too - no?


It's a kind of floating thread; sometimes it's weeks between messages, and other times (like right now) it's jumping. It was begun by left-leaning KPers pretty much to talk about what interests them. You're welcome to join in. Right now we've been discussing the drop in educational standards, the need (or not) for a living wage, not sure what else. I wouldn't read back more than a week's worth of messages, because whatever we were talking about a week ago, we're not talking about now.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> We have to get away from the ceo believing he deserves a $5 million dollar bonus. There is enough money there for the ceo, the shareholders and the hourly employee to all be paid well. It's just that the top has gotten very greedy as of late.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> I once ventured the opinion that the rich are too rich. I received some quite unpleasant responses: someone asked me, "How dare you say what is too much money?" I was quite new to KP and a little surprised. I'm afraid I have to treat some of the American posters on here as an anthropological study, because I really don't understand them (not the LOLLs, of course).


There are plenty of Americans who agree with you, but it seems to be revealed truth among some that whatever sum a person can manage to grab for him/herself, he/she is entitled to. I think there's a new definition of "earn" among them, but I haven't figured out what it is.

There are some very wealthy people in the UK, too, but they don't seem to get their wealth by depriving whole families of the wherewithal to live on. An anthropological study is a good way to view it, except for us who have to live with the consequences.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

The interview below is from Democracy Now. Amy Goodman interviews Robert Reich. This is especially for KnitterfromNebraska.

Robert Reich, former secretary of labor under President Bill Clinton and professor at the University of California, Berkeley. He is featured in the new film, Inequality for All, which will be released on September 27. He is author of many books, including Aftershock: The Next Economy & Americas Future and Beyond Outrage: What Has Gone Wrong with Our Economy and Our Democracy, and How to Fix It.

Five years ago this weekend, the Wall Street giant Lehman Brothers collapsed, triggering the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. Today, the divide between the 1 percent and the 99 percent is as great as ever. According to one recent study, the top 1 percent has captured about 95 percent of the income gains since the recession ended. "Since the recovery, almost all of the gains have gone to the very, very top. People who are in the top 1 percent are doing even better than they did before the Great Recession, better than they have done since 1928," says former Labor Secretary Robert Reich. "Most Americans are on a downward escalator. Median wage in the United States, adjusted for inflation, keeps on dropping." Reich is the focus of the new film, "Inequality for All." In this interview, he also talks about Syria, the second anniversary of Occupy Wall Street on September 17, Obamas healthcare plan and Milton Friedmans connection to the Pinochet dictatorship in Chile.

Transcript

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

AMY GOODMAN: Five years ago this weekend, the Wall Street giant Lehman Brothers collapsed, triggering the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. At the time, Lehman was the fourth-largest bank on Wall Street. It collapsed under the weight of subprime, mortgage-backed securities tied to the crumbling U.S. housing market.

Five years after the financial crisis began, millions are still suffering, but Wall Street is not. While next week marks the second anniversary of Occupy Wall Street, the divide between the 1 percent and the 99 percent is as great as ever. According to one recent study, the top 1 percent has captured about 95 percent of the income gains since the recession ended. Meanwhile, the top 10 percent of earners last year took more than half the countrys total income, the highest level recorded since the government began collecting relevant data a century ago.

Today were joined by former secretary of labor and renowned economist Robert Reich. He is the focus of a new film called Inequality for All.

ROBERT REICH: Now, the thing you ought to know about this Mini Cooper is it is small. We are in proportion, me and my car. My name is Robert Reich. I was secretary of labor under Bill Clinton; before that, the Carter administration. Before that, I was a special aide to Abraham Lincoln. Of all developed nations, the United States has the most unequal distribution of income, and were surging toward even greater inequality. 1928 and 2007 become the peak years for income concentration. It looks like a suspension bridge.

UNIDENTIFIED: Last year we made $36,000.

UNIDENTIFIED: I probably make $50,000 a year, working 70 hours a week.

ROBERT REICH: The middle class is struggling. People occasionally say to me, "What nation does it better?" The answer is the United States. In the decades after World War II, the economy boomed. You had very low inequality.

BILL OREILLY: You know Robert Reich?

FOX NEWS GUEST: I do, indeed.

BILL OREILLY: Hes a communist.

ROBERT REICH: When I was a kid, bigger boys would pick on me. I think it changed my life. I had to protect people from the people who would beat them up economically. Who is actually looking out for the American worker? The answer is nobody. Workers dont have power if they dont have a voice. Their wages and benefits start eroding. We are losing equal opportunity in America. Any one of you who feels cynical, just consider where we have been.

AMY GOODMAN: The trailer for the new film, Inequality for All, featuring Robert Reich. It opens in theaters September 27th. Robert Reich joins us here in New York. He served as labor secretary under President Lincoln, now a professor at theunder President Clinton, and is now a professor at the University of California, Berkeley. Time magazine named him one of the 10 most effective Cabinet secretaries of the last century. He has written 12 books, including Aftershock: The Next Economy & Americas Future and Beyond Outrage, expanded edition, What Has Gone Wrong with Our Economy and Our Democracy, and How to Fix It.

Welcome back to Democracy Now! Its great to have you.

ROBERT REICH: Hi, Amy. You know, Im getting so old that my students really do believe that I was a special assistant to Abraham Lincoln. Those were tough years, I tell them, and they stopped getting the joke.

AMY GOODMAN: They have heard of Abraham Lincoln.

ROBERT REICH: They have heard of Abraham Lincoln. Thats right.

AMY GOODMAN: So youre a good teacher, then.

ROBERT REICH: But, look, they dont havemy students, who are very idealistic, and they do want to change the world, they, in their lives, dont have very much of a memory of government or even of the society that we are a part of expanding equal opportunity, changing the structure of power. I mean, you know, they dont remember, as I do, the 1960s.

AMY GOODMAN: Lets talk about this fifth anniversary of the collapse of Lehman Brothers, the beginning of the recession and who has profited in this last five years. It has certainly not been bad for everyone.

ROBERT REICH: Oh, no. In fact, Emmanuel Saez, my colleague at Berkeley who has really done the pioneering work on determining whos got what and looked at income tax records, hes just came out with a new study showing that since the recovery almost all the gains have gone to the very, very top. People who are in the top 1 percent are doing better than they did even before the Great Recession, better than they have done since 1928. Remember what happened after 1928: We had a great crash. Remember what happened after 2007, which was the last peak in terms of inequality: We had another crash. We can get back to why there is a relationship there, but most Americans are on a downward escalator. The median wage in the United States, adjusted for inflation, keeps on dropping.

AMY GOODMAN: You use the image of a suspension bridge to talk about inequality in the film.

ROBERT REICH: Because up untilthis new study shows that 2012, actually, is the new peak. The old peaks were 1928 and 2007, which is interesting because in 1929 and 2008 we had crashes. And I think its not coincidental, because when so much of the nations income and wealth go to the top, the rest simply dont have the purchasing power to keep the economy going at full employment.

AMY GOODMAN: Talk about whats happened to everyone else.

ROBERT REICH: Whats happening to everybody else is not only wages eroding and a very large number of discouraged workers, who basically are never going to be able to find jobs, but economic insecurity. Most Americans today, even if they have jobs, even if the jobs pay fairly well, are much more insecure than Americans have ever been at work before, at least in living memory, because we have a huge number of contingent workers, huge number of part-time workers, huge number of workers who cant know what their paychecks are going to be because theyre paid on a contingency feebonuses, you know, working hours, billable hours. That means that they cannot plan, and have to live, to some extent, from paycheck to paycheck. That insecurity, Amy, coupled with declining wages, coupled with more and more concentration of income and wealth at the very top, has led to a veryan economy that is very vulnerable and a democracy that is also very vulnerable, because all of that money at the top is being transformed into political power every day.

AMY GOODMAN: Political power. I want to refer to Syria right now. Its something you also have written about, Syria and the reality at home in America. Aside from the moral and the strategic arguments against the war or a strike on Syria by the United States, can you simply talk about what the costs of war mean?

ROBERT REICH: Well, every time the United States has got into this tinderbox of the Middle East, for reasons that we can debate, whether its good or not, there have been ancillarylets call them ancillary consequences. I mean, civilians are killed. You cant prevent civilians from being killed. There is a rise in anti-American sentiment. There is a rise in terrorism. We deflect attention from whats going on here in the United States in terms of widening inequality, what needs to be done here in America. We use resources that could otherwise be used on our poor, on infrastructure, on education. You know, I am old enough to remember Lyndon Johnsons war on poverty and the Great Society ending on the shoals of Vietnam, another civil war, in effect, where we were told exactly what, ironically, John Kerry is saying about SyriaAmerican resolve is at stake; our credibility is at stake; you know, if we dont do this, our enemies are going to be emboldened. He is using the same words, ironically, that were used by McNamara, you know, in the 1960s, when John Kerry was

AMY GOODMAN: The former secretary of defense under Lyndon Johnson.

ROBERT REICH: The former secretary of defense when John Kerry was protesting the Vietnam War. I mean, I hope this irony is not lost on Kerry or anybody else.

AMY GOODMAN: Chuck Hagel, who opposed the war in Iraq, our current defense secretary, when asked in the Senate what will be the costs of these strikes, because very few people are talking about the actual economic cost, he said something like tens of millions of dollars.

ROBERT REICH: Well, look, these things tend to escalate out of control. We know that. Weve been there beforeI mean, in living memory of most of us. What Assad has apparently done, and Im assuming Assad was responsible for the chemicalthe use of chemical weapons, is abhorrent, absolutely abhorrent. There has to be some world response. But to assume that the United States is the only worlds policeman and that missiles are going to actually be the best response, as opposed to economic sanctions or freezing assets or doing any number of things the most powerful economic force in the world can dothat is, the United StatesI think is the height of folly at this particular point in time.

AMY GOODMAN: Were talking to former Labor Secretary Robert Reich. Now, when you were the secretary of labor under President Clinton, interestingly, especially in light of the NSA scandal today and how the Obama administration is reeling from all the leaks around U.S. government spying on Americans, you proposed cutting the CIA budget in half and giving the money to inner-city schools.

ROBERT REICH: I did, and I was making a kind of play on the notion of U.S. intelligence, because I just sat through a briefing where the CIA and the Intelligence Committee said they needed more money. And I saidand I was slightly tongue-in-cheek, but I was actually quite serious, Amy. I said, "If were really concerned about U.S. intelligence, the most important U.S. intelligence we have are the brains and the capacities of our kids as they face their adulthood and their futures, and we need better schools, particularly in poor communities, and we need to spend a lot of money, and were spending far more on the wrong kind of intelligence." I didnt get a very positive response, lets put it that way.

AMY GOODMAN: Were talking to Robert Reich. He is the subject of a new film. Its called Inequality for All. He teaches now economics at the University of California, Berkeley, was the labor secretary under President Clinton. Well be back with him in a minute.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: Former Labor Secretary Robert Reich is our guest today. I want to turn to another clip from the new film, Inequality for All, which will be released around the country on September 27th. Here Bob Reich explains how he got interested in issues of economic justice.

ROBERT REICH: When I was a kid, the bigger boys would pick on me. That was what you did. Thats what is done. So I got an idea that I would make alliances with older boys, you know, like just one or two who would be my protectors. The summer when I was about 10, one of the older boys who I depended on to kind of be a protector, his name was Michael Schwerner. In the summer of '64, I learned that Mickey had been in Mississippi registering voters, and he and two other people who had been with him registering voters werewere tortured and murdered. And when I heard that my protector had been murdered by the real bullies, I think it changed my life. I had to protect people from the bullies, the people who would beat them up economically or the people who would subject them and their families to real harm, because if you don't have a voice, if you dont have power, if you are vulnerable economically in society, you dont have anybody to protect you.

AMY GOODMAN: Thats Robert Reich, featured in Inequality for All, talking about what inspires you. This is the 50th anniversary, of course, of the 1963 March on Washington, as well. Talk more about your experience.

ROBERT REICH: Well, like many people who are my age, you know, the 1960s were the formative era. We were involved in the civil rights movement, even peripherally, the anti-Vietnam War movement. I spent a lot of time organizing young people for Eugene McCarthy, went clean for Gene in 1968. But out of all of that came a sense of efficacy, a sense that we really could change the world. I mean, there had been a Civil Rights Act, a Voting Rights Act. We ended the Vietnam War. And there was also an assumption that I shared with many people that, of course, you would spend much of your life working to improve society. I mean, even if that was not going to be your official vocation or your job, still that was part of your work, part of your lifes work. It wasnt just me. I mean, it was really millions of us.

And I think that that assumption may be different now, Amy. One of the great victories of the right, particularly the radical right, has been to spread such cynicism about the capacity of our country to change and generate social justice, that many people just have given up. They basically, "I dont want anything to do with politics. Its all corrupt. I dont want anything to do with that kind of focus on social movements at that scale. Theyll go nowhere." But that, you see, that kind of cynicism about our politics and our government, cedes everything, cedes control to the moneyed interests. And thats exactly what they want.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about whats just happened in California? Governor Brown says he will sign this legislation around increasing the minimum wage. It will be the highest in the country. And yet, the backlash that we have seen?

ROBERT REICH: Well, its alook, 85 percent of Americans support a minimum wage increase. If you just kept the minimum wage we had in 1968 steady, adjusted for inflation, it would be $10.40 right now. If you adjusted the minimum wage for the productivity improvements weve had since the late 1960s, the minimum wage would be over $15 an hour. I mean, Martin Luther King, in 1963, that was a march for jobs and justice, and one of the planks was moving the minimum wage to $2 an hour, which in todays dollars would be well over $14in fact, by some measures, about $15 an hour. So, this is not out of our tradition. This is not a radical notion. This is what it would be, all other things being equal. And if you put more money peoples pockets, they can turn around and buy stuff, which means more jobs, not fewer jobs.

AMY GOODMAN: Lets go back to another clip of Inequality for All. The focus here is problems of American workers today.

ROBERT REICH: Contrary to popular mythology, mobilization and technology havent really reduced the number of jobs available to Americans. These transformations have reduced their pay. I mean, its not just that wages are stagnating, but when you take into consideration rising costs, the rising costs of rents or homes, dramatically increasing costs of healthcare, the rising costs of child care, and also the rising costs of higher education, rising much faster than inflationtake all of these into consideration, and you find that its much worse than just stagnating wages, its basically middle-class families, often with two wage earners, working harder and harder and harder, and getting nowhere.

AMY GOODMAN: An excerpt of Inequality for All, which is being released in two weeks. Bob Reich, what about healthcare? What about the costs of healthcare? What about the costs of Obamacare, the costs of what Medicare for all would be, the costs of the system we have today?

ROBERT REICH: Well, look at it. Its the most inefficient and costly system that any advanced country has, yet we have the highest infant mortality, the lowest level ofyou know, even in terms of lifespans, we dont do as well as many other advanced countries. We ought to have a single-payer plan. We will eventually have a single-payer plan. Its the only rational direction to go in. Everybody admits this. Even doctors and medical professionals and heads of medical institutes I sit with and talk with, privately, they say, "Yes, were going to have to go to single payer." They just dont say it publicly. The fact we didnt even have a public option in the Affordable Care Act is absurd.

On the other hand, though, Amy, the Affordable Care Act is a beginning. Lets be clear. I mean, this is something that Bill Clinton couldnt get, Franklin D. Roosevelt couldnt get, Harry Truman couldnt get, John F. Kennedy couldnt get. I mean, it is at least a major step in the right direction. And the Republicans are apoplectic about it. They all wantyou know, they want totheyre threatening to not even to raise the debt ceiling unless we roll back or unless they get rid of and repeal the Affordable Care Act. I think most Americans, once they see the act working and once they enjoy the benefits, will be incredibly supportive, which is exactly what the opponents are worried about.

AMY GOODMAN: Why do you think the media has not beenI mean, the media is supposed to be separate from the government, from the insurance industryhas not been able to convey what these costs are and to actually show where the U.S. stands in the world, so people could make a rational decision?

ROBERT REICH: Well, you say the media is supposed to be separate from the private sector and separate from the insurance industries and everything else. I wish I could say with a straight face that Americas news media and news outlets were not influenced at all by advertisers or by insurance companies and drug companies. Drug companies are advertising like mad. Im not sure thats the case. I think that Americans have not really had and been given a clear idea of the absurdities and unnecessary costs of our healthcare system. I mean, prevention is and should be the rule of game. But its all a matter of fee-for-service, and everybody who is inside living off of that fee-for-service likes it that way. But weve got to move to a system that awards healthy outcomes.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to turn to another anniversary. Next Tuesday marks the second anniversary of Occupy Wall Street. Im playing a clip now of Robert Reich addressing an Occupy demonstration in California at the University of Berkeley in 2011.

ROBERT REICH: Because of Occupy L.A. and the Occupy movement around America, this country is beginning to discuss an issue and a set of issues it has avoided discussing for years. And that is the increasing concentration of income and wealth and political power at the very top of this country, and what that has done to the economy and what that has done to our democracy.

AMY GOODMAN: That was Bob Reich speaking in California two years ago. What about the significance of the Occupy movement, the coining of the term "99 percent," and where are we today?

ROBERT REICH: Well, on the positive side, the Occupy movement has had a huge effect, of putting this issue front and center, page one, a lot of discussion reframing the debate so that people understand that its not the middle class against the poor, its basically a small group of Americans at the very top. I mean, the 400 richest Americans, 400 of them, have more wealth than the bottom 150 million of us put together. The heirs of Wal-Mart, just the Wal-Mart heirs, who own a huge chunk of Wal-Mart stock, they have more wealth than the bottom 40 percent of Americans put together. I mean, this is mind-boggling, and the Occupy movement showed America what was happening.

Unfortunately, on the negative side, Occupy did not organize itself and discipline itself and develop politically strategic ways of effectuating many of the objections it had, and so that once the mayors and the universities began clearing out these encampments, there wasnt the kind of organization thats needed for a sustained, long-term social movement. And one thing weve learned over the years, Amy, whether its the labor movement or the womens movement or its the civil rights movement or any other movement, it takes a long time, it takes a great deal of discipline, it takes strategy, it takes politics, and it takes patience.

AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to read a critique of your theories put forward by Paul Roderick Gregory of the Hoover Institution, who recently wrote an article for Forbes called "Robert Reichs F Minus in Economics: False Facts, False Theories." In it, Gregory writes, quote, "Reich, a former labor secretary, displays a glaring ignorance of how markets work, even labor markets. In his world, big corporations convene behind closed doors to decide how much they deign to give to their workers after they have taken their often obscene profits. He does not understand that wages are generally set in markets, not in smoke-filled corporate board rooms. He displays an even greater lack of appreciation of profits as signals to guide resource allocation and as sources of investment finance. To Reich, profits seem always to be too high, wages too low. I would like to ask him how many workers would be employed if businesses earned no profit, and labor got everything." Well, respond, Robert Reich.

ROBERT REICH: Well, thats the typical right-wing argument. You know, the Hoover Institute, where this fellow is, and Forbes magazine, that calls itself a capitalist tool, I mean, theyre putting out this stuff, and theyve put it out for years. This is not new. The fact of the matter is that one of the major ways in which American corporations have shown huge profits over the last few years is by keeping payrolls down, by squeezing wages. This is well documented. I dont haveyou know, this is not my own personal view, Amy. This iswe know it. There is abundant evidence and abundant proof of this. And this is why, in part, the top 1 percent has done so well, because they are the ones who get a lot of their income out of the stock market, whereas everybody else, the only assets that most other people have, if they have any assets at all, is the value of their homes. And home values are the things that really took a huge hit after 2008. Theyre slowly beginning to come back, but many people are still underwater. So, if you dont look at this reality, if you dont look at the asset base of the wealthy versus the asset base of most other people, you know, you can begin to be convinced by these propagandathis propaganda.

AMY GOODMAN: I was just watching, actually, Steve Ratner this morning, right, who was the American financier who led the presidential task force on the auto industry for the Obama administration, when talking about the California increase in the minimum wage bill, talked about how, for example, at fast-food restaurants, yeah, he said maybe minimum wage, yes, should be increased, but when youre talking living wage, when these people want $15 an hour, thats not what these fast-food restaurants are about. Whats your response to that?

ROBERT REICH: Well, first of all, its notyou know, were not talking about individual mom-and-pop operations so much as we are talking about the Wal-Marts, the very large chains, retail, restaurant, hotel, hospital. Wal-Mart is the largest employer in the United States right now. You know, McDonalds and others, if they raise their minimum wage to $15 an hour, that would have several positive effects. It would, as I noted a moment ago, give people more money with which they could then turn around and buy stuff, which is going to keep other people employed. It would, secondly, enable these people to live without the dependence on food stamps and other safety nets that were all paying for. Were all subsidizing Wal-Mart and McDonalds and others. These are not any longertheir employees are not any longer teenagers. I mean, these are mostly adults. The typical Wal-Mart worker, the typical even fast-food worker at one of these big chains, is earning at least half of family income. And if they are not going to pay their workers enough, the rest of us are going to have to subsidize their workers. Even the earned income tax credit is a subsidy to these companies so their workers are not impoverished. And thats justthats not fair. That is not economical. That gives them, these companies, a competitive advantage that is simply unwarranted.

AMY GOODMAN: Janet Sparks, a Wal-Mart employee, was recently speaking at a protest and comparing the wages of Wal-Mart workers to the CEO of Wal-Mart, which was something like $20.7 million.

ROBERT REICH: Well, the gap between CEO pay and the pay of the typical workersyou dont even have to go to the low-wage workersis now at a record 350 times. So anybody who says that somehow these companies cant afford it is not looking at their profit-and-loss statements, is not looking at their extraordinary corporate profits overall, the share values which has been risenhave risen dramatically since the Great Recession, relative to whats happened to wages. I mean, if you look at the economy as a whole, the share of the economy going to wages is at the lowest level we have seen in about five decades. The share going to profits is at the highest level weve seen in decades. I mean, you know, this is not rocket science. This is not abstruse economics. This is justthese are data available to everybody. Theyve been well reported.

AMY GOODMAN: So what can the Obama administration do? What can President Obama do to address this greatest gap in wealth in this country that we have ever seen?

ROBERT REICH: Well, number one, introduce a bill to raise the minimum wage. He says that he is going to do thatstill hasnt done it. His minimum wage bill was very modest. I think it ought to be a minimum wage thats higher than $9 and whateverI cant remember what it is, $9.20 or $9.50. But, secondly, I think that the president and other members of the administration ought to be out there campaigning for better wages, because even as people start to get new jobs back, those new jobs are paying less than the jobs that were lost during the Great Recession, which means that the median wage, the wage of theIm not talking about average wages. You know, Shaquille ONeal, the basketball player, and I have an average height of six-foot-one. Do you get my point? Im pretty short. I mean, every time you say "average," watch your wallet, because the people at the top are bringing up the average. But if you look at the median, which is really halfway there, that gives you a pretty good snapshot of where the middle class and certainly the poor are. That median wage keeps on dropping, adjusted for inflation, which means that more and more families are being squeezed to a greater and greater and greater extent. This economy is not working for everyone.

And one of the points we make in the film, which I have been writing about, but the wonderful thing about it in film is that you can dramatize something, is that the economy is not something out there. Its not kind of a state of nature. The economy is a set of rules. Its based upon, basically, rules that are decided upon by our democracy. And if our rules are generating outcomes that are unfair, that dont work very well, that dont spread enough of the gains of economic growth to enough people, we change the rules.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk, finally, about the significance of who will head the Federal Reserve, what that means in this country? Now weve got the battle between Janet Yellen and Larry Summers. You have a long history with Larry Summers. President Obama is rumored to be supporting Larry Summers. Talk about the significance of what that means, considering this five years, the Lehman Brothers anniversary, is all tied up with Larry Summers and his ideology.

ROBERT REICH: Well, the Fed does two things. The most of our attention is on the bond buying program. That is, is it keeping interest rates down, and who benefits from those low interest rates? The other thing, though, that the Fed is now charged with is a great deal of regulatory oversight of Wall Street, more now than before, although Dodd-Frank is still not fully effectuated. I mean, the big banks have pushed back very hard. The so-called Volcker Rule, remember that? That was supposed to

AMY GOODMAN: Explain.

ROBERT REICH: be a watered-down version of Glass-Steagall, separating commercial from investment bankingstill not there. I mean, the banks have been so powerful in their lobbying and political contributions that they have not even allowed the Volcker Rule to be applied. But the next Fed chair is going to have a very important responsibility with regard to oversight of Wall Street.

AMY GOODMAN: And what does it mean that Larry Summers is reportedly President Obamas top candidate?

ROBERT REICH: Well, Im in an awkward position here, because I know Janet Yellen very well. Shes a very close friend, and Larry Summers and I are friends. Ive been working with him for 30 years. And so, if youre asking me who do

AMY GOODMAN: Well, aside from the friend part, you know Larry Summers, Robert Rubin, what they represent in what were talking about, this huge income gap in this country that continues to grow.

ROBERT REICH: Well, let melet me just be clear. In the late 1990s, 1999, Bob Rubin, Larry Summers, others in the administration did agree to support Republican bills to get rid of the Glass-Steagall Act, which, as I said, had separated investment from commercial banking. And they also opposed a move by the Commodity Futures Trading Corporation to regulate derivatives. Now, thats what got us into trouble, the lack of oversight of derivative trading. These are bets on bets. And this is whatWall Street was making a fortune on them, byyou know, certainly by 2007, and those bets were out of control.

So, lets just put it this way. And IBob Rubin is also a friend, but I spent a lot of time in the administration battling Bob Rubin, because Bob, although, again, I like him, and, you know, his view of the economy is through the eyes of Wall Street. And those eyes, the Wall Streets view of America, is not where most people live. It is just notit doesnt take account of the problems, the challenges, the realities faced by most people. It views the economy as sort of a bunch of assets to be moved around wherever they can get the highest use and best use. And people are not simply assets.

AMY GOODMAN: Were going to break, and then when we come back I want to play for you a clip of another colleague, though he was at University of California, Berkeley, years ago, the Chilean economist Manfred Max-Neef. And Id like to get your response. Hes calling for a global economic war crimes tribunal. This is Democracy Now! Well be back with Robert Reich in a minute.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. Im Amy Goodman. Our guest for the hour is Robert Reich, the former labor secretary, now professor of economics at University of California, Berkeley, and the subject of a new film called Inequality for All. Were going to talk more about that in a minute, but first I want to turn to another economist, Chilean economist Manfred Max-Neef, who has advocated for the idea of an economics crimes tribunal. I interviewed him over Independence Day weekend when he was attending a meeting of Right Livelihood Award laureates in Bogotá, Colombia. He had won the Right Livelihood Award after his publication of his book Outside Looking In: Experiences in Barefoot Economics. I asked him what he was talking about with this economic crimes tribunal, why he felt one was needed.

MANFRED MAX-NEEF: Well, we know everything that has happened, you know, in these last years, and we know that many or practically all the big problemsenvironment, assassinations of leaders, you know, in the Amazon and other places, and unemployment and desperation, and all the thingsuicides that are increasing dramatically in Spain and other places of the worldwe know that all these, in the end, you know, are the origin of what I call an evil, an absolutely evil, economic model that is dominating the world. This economy cannot go on no longer, I mean, because it has become absolutely criminal.

I was last year in the Zermatt meeting in Switzerland, with about 400 people participating, all high-level people from different countries of the world, and I gave the opening speech. And in the speech, I said, "Well, Im going to start with a very brutal statement. And the statement is that this economic model is killing more people in the world than all the armies put together. And this is people who die of hunger or of other diseases that would not happen, you know, if this were a more just and, I would even say, decent economic model."

What we are working on, you know, is really a humane process. I am now one of the members, appointed by the king of Bhutan and the General Assembly, one of the 60 international experts, who are designing a new economic paradigm and developing a paradigm for the world, which is based on well-being and happiness and ecological sustainability and adequate distribution of wealth and intelligent use of natural resources. But the main component is well-being and human happiness, along the lines of what would have said or that was said by your wonderful, magnificent and forgotten father of your country, Thomas Jefferson, the only one who wrote a political document in which happiness, the pursuit of happiness, is an inalienable right.

AMY GOODMAN: That was Manfred Max-Neef. He also was a professor at University of California, Berkeley, an economics professor, now in South Chile. And particularly poignant to hear his words today, on this week thats the 40th anniversary of the coup in Chile on September 11, the other September 11, 1973. Salvador Allende died in the palace as the Pinochet forces rose to power, Pinochet ruling for 17 years, killing thousands of Chileans. But that idea that Manfred Max-Neef puts forward, Robert Reich, of an economics crimes tribunal, what do you think?

ROBERT REICH: Well, you know, it would be very interesting to examine who the great economic criminals are. Its interesting you mentioned the Pinochet coup, because two years after that, Milton Friedman came down to Chile to meet with Pinochet to urge economic reforms that were basically quite brutal and brutalized a great number of people. Milton Friedman was not necessarily a supporter of Pinochet, but certainly hated Allende, was very supportive of what Kissinger and Nixon had both done, and that is, help Pinochet take over in Chile.

AMY GOODMAN: And interestingly, this week Kerry met with Kissinger to get advice on Syria

ROBERT REICH: Yeah, I mean, there are these

AMY GOODMAN: on September 11th, actually.

ROBERT REICH: On September 11th. There are these unfortunate parallels. So, in defining an economic criminal, I think it would be interesting to see the interaction between economics and politics. I mean, whatthe criminal actions, to me, around the world, particularly in the United States, are the underminings of democracy. That is, if we cannot have a democracy that controls, that limits the excesses of capitalism, the brutality of capitalism, then we dont have any hope of a just economy. And the people who are making it difficult for our democracy or any democracy to functionagain, very poignantly reflected in this 40th anniversary of the coup in Chileare those people who could very well be defined as economic criminals.

AMY GOODMAN: Robert Reich, finally, the film is coming out, the film about you, Inequality for All, in two weeks, and it will air around the country, or it will beit will play in theaters around the country. You famously say in this film, as you even said on the show, "We make the rules of the economy, and we have the power to change these rules." What do you hope to accomplish with this film?

ROBERT REICH: Well, first of all, its not about me. Its about the economy. Its about inequality. Its about our democracy. Im a vehicle. I helped prepare the film, and its based on some of my work and writings. But we hope that the film is going to open a lot of peoples eyes who dont understand whats going on, Amy. I mean, you know, there are a lot of confusion about inequality. You know, people know that inequality is surging. Many people have a feeling that the game is rigged. But they dont really understand why, how its happened and why its dangerous, or what they can do about it. I mean, this film also provides a kind of guide to people. Theres a social action movement that is connected to the film. So we hope that the film really spurs anot just a different discussion in this country, but also a movement to take back our economy and democracy.

AMY GOODMAN: Where do you think you start?

ROBERT REICH: We startit has to start with people, citizens, organizing and mobilizing and energizing. It cant startnothing starts in Washington. It starts at the grassroots. We know this. Those of us who have been involved in social movements before know this. But in order to start it, you have to have the right understanding. You have to have the right framework. And thats what this movie is all about.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you very much, Bob Reich, for joining us. Robert Reich, former labor secretary under President Clinton, hes featured in the new film, Inequality for All. Its being released on September 27th. He has written 12 books, including Aftershock and Beyond Outrage.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> NJG said:
> 
> 
> > In my opinion, its because the super rich have bought out the merely rich and they have no heart at all! They want to own everything and everyone!
> ...


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Unfortunately, it is fair! One has gotten an education or skills needed to perform the higher paying job. Are you suggesting that those who work hard to get ahead should only receive what the lazy man receives?


Do you really believe it is fair for a ceo to receive a $500,000 bonus and for his employees to be paid minimum wage? Does he work that much harder? Is his education that much better? Why do you call the poor person a "lazy man?" I don't think anyone has ever said the ceo needs to be paid the same as his employees, but in days past the employer thought the employee had value and importance. Not the case any more. Sometimes you slip up and let your true colors show through, like with that "lazy man" comment.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I know from experience that if you don't like your lot in life, you CAN change it. Only having lazy thoughts will hold you back! Some simply accept what is placed before them, others seek more! I understand that since this depression has occurred, jobs are scarce and choices are limited. But before that, a person was only limited by the choices they made. You can't blame others for that. Neither can you hold responsible, the person who made good choices. History is full of examples of people who came from abject poverty who through hard work and perseverance, built a life of plenty! It all depends upon the choices one makes!


It also depends on the choices one has available and the life experiences they have to help them make those choices. All things are not equal.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> OMG! What am I doing here?!? Hahahaha!


Making us think. And we're having the same effect on you. You can always go back to D&D and talk about gardening and cream cheese and how dumb you think we are.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> They actually have a plan called "Agenda 21". Part of that plan will have all of US living in tiny little apartments. China instituted it first. People live and work in the same building. They have tiny cubicles to sleep in. A cafeteria and shops on one floor etc...They don't leave because everything is right there. They want this for the whole world, well, except for themselves. Read about Agenda 21. Its real! My senator even confirmed this to me.


That is very, very creepy - very sci-fi. Who is your senator?


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> My situation was quite similar. But unless you live under a rock, you've heard about the classrooms full of children who are not taken care of. When I volunteered in my own children's school, I encountered children who had no winter coat. As brand new winter coats were available to all children through the salvation army, some mothers wouldn't even go to the trouble of getting one. The SA set up locations throughout the city, so that's not an excuse. Some children only had one meal a day, school lunch! OK, so what did the mother do with the food stamps? I'm not talking about people running out of food at the end of the month! For some, it is a chronic condition. These people don't worry about taking care of their kids because they know the government will do it. Did you know that now, the schools send backpacks of food home with kids? The parents stop doing it because the government will. And they feel entitled! In times past, even when people were as poor as they could be, they took care of their children! Not anymore! They know the government will take care of them. The government is partly responsible for the breakdown of the family.


And there you are grouping them all together as one. Yes, there are people like you talk about, but many are not like that at all. You do such a disservice to them. They send backpacks of food home so the kids have food for the weekend. You have no right to assume it is because of how their parent takes care of them. You are not living in their home, you are just being judgmental.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> Now imagine a catastrophic illness, or unemployment, or the death of a spouse or any number of things that happen to people and then try to pick up the pieces and go on. Everyone goes through things, some more than others, and just because one person makes it through, doesn't mean the next person will or even has the ability to move on. But that is what we always hear from those on the right, I did it and so can everyone else. Everyone is different and has their own story.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> This woman sounds worse than lazy. She's a criminal in so many ways. And the fact that she had no feeling for her own children indicates that she's wired all wrong - exactly what we call a sociopath. Your daughter is so fortunate to have had you to care for her, rather than the woman and her insane boyfriend.


Yup! But very lazy too! My husbands parents had bought them lots of baby stuff. All of it was gone! When we got her, she was filthy! Her only outfit was filthy! Her one bottle had dried on, crusted milk. She had sores under her arms and behind her ears because she hasn't been bathed for a long time. She and my husband's brother (the bio dad) blamed poverty but they were making almost as much as we were. And we were supporting our 3 boys and their daughter. When she had my daughter's sister, I bought her everything she would need. Bottles, bottle brush, dish soap, baby wash, shampoo, wash cloths, towels, diapers, wipes, sleepers, gowns, blankets etc... I also spoke with the social worker at the hospital. Later, when the baby was being neglected, I called child protective services, three times! The baby's Grandma called them once and the mother's friend called them twice! Before she was two years old, she was dead! Horrible! Horrible! The boyfriend went to prison but the mom didn't. I tried to talk the prosecutor into prosecting her too, but he wouldn't. All of this has probably colored my opinion on the welfare system and those who cry poor. Because we really were poor, but we made it! Thanks for the complement. She really is better off. She's loved and adored, if not a little bit spoiled.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> I agree that jobs need to be here in the US, but you need to brush up on your economic history regarding minimum wage and its benefits for workers.


When have minimum wage workers been better off than they are now? Evidence, please?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

NJG said:


> Because the ones setting the prices are greedy and becoming more so every day.


Yup! I agree!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I believe your views about teaching kids is naive. I won't even tackle it. In a past life I worked in the public schools. There is always a shortage of funds, and if you want crumbling schools and teachers who have to spend their own money on supplies you can keep thinking there's plenty of money. I don't begin to understand your statements about putting on a good show.
> 
> And who just wants kids learning the basics? Why do you think that's all there is to learn??


She thinks the basics are good enough for the "lazy mans" kids and the rest who make better choices will get a better education.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I need to introduce you to my older brother. He believes in all these theories that are a bit way out. Actually Agenda 21 is already here in NYC - the new apts are teeny tiny but nicely appointed. However, it is not a global conspiracy but the desire of too many people wanting to live on limited space. China, as we all know, is vastly overpopulated, so they also need to create a miracle to house all of those who require housing. I thought LOLL meant Laughing Old Leftie Ladies. Whatever!


Read about it! Its a treaty that was signed during the Clinton administration, I believe. A conspiracy is not a theory, if its true! Small parts of Agenda 21 are being implemented all over. Read what they have in mind for US!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> As a psychotherapist, I've always had a problem with the concept of laziness. I don't think it exists, at least not as a conscious effort to escape hard work. It exists in the minds of people who see themselves as superior because they have managed to accomplish things that others haven't - the "superior" see the others as lazy.
> 
> But human beings (like dogs, cats, elephants, probably even Japanese beetles) are born with a need to act in order to understand and conquer their environment. Given freedom to do as they choose, infants and toddlers act like miniature scientists. They don't need to work in order to earn their bread; it's something they want to do.
> 
> ...


100% correct.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> I'm not talking about us (as individuals,)I'm talking about funding the schools receive.


That's what I was referring to. Monies are distributed by need but who determines the need? Do admintrators need more? You know, they say you have to pay a lot to get a good one. Do the teachers need more? They're underpaid. Do you need new books? New curricula? How about the latest computers? Software? They all have long lists of needs but limited funds. No matter how much you gave them, they would still "need" more because there's always something new around the corner. I'm saying that we can put our resources where we need them and stick to the basics at the lower grades.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

NJG said:


> 100% correct.


I agree l00% -- people's background, what they have lived through and sometimes survived, their family dynamic, and so may other things -- what they have been taught, whether they have grown up abused -- all these things affect how they deal with life. That is a fact. You can't put people into squares and boxes -- it just doesn't work. YOu take 20 people and they are all different, with different fears, different abilities, different strengths, so many different things.

There is one - if you are raised in poverty you have a lot more to do to get yourself out of poverty than if you are raised in a middle class family. Even a marriage can cause a difference in their feelings about them selves-- you can be lucky like I am where my husband believes I can do anything I want to - (full support which gives me confidence that I can accomplish what I want to accomplish) and those who have been told that they are useless, unable to cope, stupid -- do you think that doesn't affect their lives, whether they are afraid or whether they have courage to make decisions???

That is why you cannot judge a group -- you have to look at the individual and what has caused them to be the way they are.

Each of us has a personality - some say -- I would not allow that to happen to me -- others are fearful of 'it' happening to me! 
Personality - life experiences, childhood experiences and personality. My sister and i were raised in the same family. We react entirely differently to the same situation.. One panics, is frightened, is afraid of the future, tjhe other knows that life can be dealt with.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

NJG said:


> Now imagine a catastrophic illness, or unemployment, or the death of a spouse or any number of things that happen to people and then try to pick up the pieces and go on. Everyone goes through things, some more than others, and just because one person makes it through, doesn't mean the next person will or even has the ability to move on. But that is what we always hear from those on the right, I did it and so can everyone else. Everyone is different and has their own story.


So, what do we do? Do we give them money? Do we move in and help them? People go on because they HAVE to! Don't think that I haven't wondered what I would do if I lost my husband! I haven't worked in years. But I'd make it somehow because what other choice would I have? I believe that true charity is helping someone stand on their own two feet. I don't think that making them dependent is good for them! I value freedom, which only comes through independence!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> When so many businesses (even corporations) were family-owned, there probably was a more personal relationship between owner and worker. It's tough to be hard-nosed when you grew up with the man who now works for you. That way of doing business is almost gone, and the families who still run the businesses are people like the Waltons, who have an endless desire for more and more money. Isn't it odd that a person with an endless desire for liquor or food is thought to have something wrong with him/her but an endless desire for money makes you someone to be admired?
> 
> During the 50s, 60s, and 70s, there was a feeling that this was one country, that we were all in it together. It wasn't just poor men who fought in WWII; rich men, movie stars, everyone fought. Now it isn't one country any more. It saddens me.
> 
> But to say that there's no place for a minimum wage is to say that some people are just there to be used and aren't even of the same species.


I agree with what you've said! I didn't say that there was no place for minimum wage. I only said that it is not the cure for our problems. It hasn't worked in the past and it won't work in the future. I don't have the answers, but we need another solution! This one doesn't work!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Really?!? Then how do you explain this guy?
> http://dailycaller.com/2013/08/10/the-new-face-of-snap-food-stamps-buy-lobster-for-surfer-and-his-buddies/


Fox news jumped on this guy like they jumped on every ACA horror story, but Greenslate is not exactly a representative example of people receiving food stamps. Greenslate even said himself "I don't think that one person should be used to make the decision for 47 million people." 
Government data make clear the vast majority of households receiving benefits include at least one member who is either a child, elderly, or disabled. But Republicans have focused on recipients who are able-bodied adults without dependents -- people who may be like Greenslate. Is the program perfect? Of course not, what program is? 
Government spending on food stamps is increasing, but it's not because the criteria have changed, it is because fewer people can afford food.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> There are plenty of Americans who agree with you, but it seems to be revealed truth among some that whatever sum a person can manage to grab for him/herself, he/she is entitled to. I think there's a new definition of "earn" among them, but I haven't figured out what it is.
> 
> There are some very wealthy people in the UK, too, but they don't seem to get their wealth by depriving whole families of the wherewithal to live on. An anthropological study is a good way to view it, except for us who have to live with the consequences.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

NJG said:


> It also depends on the choices one has available and the life experiences they have to help them make those choices. All things are not equal.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> As a special ed teacher, I never accepted the concept of lazy either. Usually these students were in survival mode and learning was low on their list - usually from serious family issues, learning disabilities and/or depression. Laziness is a symptom of some underlying issue.


I use to work with a lady whose husband was a 3rd grade teacher and she and her husband were certain that there was no hope for these so called "lazy kids." She was a Jehovahs Witness so you would think she was a good christian, maybe. I told her how despicable I thought they both were and that her husband needed a new profession. People like that should not be teachers.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> For the same reason the countries beating us in healthcare outcomes spend a lot less: they haven't turned big business loose on education. You know, the companies that make up the useless tests and sell them to state depts. of ed., the charter schools that pay no rent and siphon the best students away from public schools, the textbook producers that produce know-nothing textbooks.


And the religious right that produce text books that tell the story as they want it told, not necessarily the truth.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I agree l00% -- people's background, what they have lived through and sometimes survived, their family dynamic, and so may other things -- what they have been taught, whether they have grown up abused -- all these things affect how they deal with life. That is a fact. You can't put people into squares and boxes -- it just doesn't work. YOu take 20 people and they are all different, with different fears, different abilities, different strengths, so many different things.
> 
> There is one - if you are raised in poverty you have a lot more to do to get yourself out of poverty than if you are raised in a middle class family. Even a marriage can cause a difference in their feelings about them selves-- you can be lucky like I am where my husband believes I can do anything I want to - (full support) and those who have been told that they are useless, unable to cope, stupid -- do you think that doesn't affect their lives, whether they are afraid or whether they have courage to make decisions??? That is why you cannot judge a group -- you have to look at the individual and what has caused them to be the way they are.
> 
> ...


I've heard it said that no two people ever live in the same family. Your sister's family contained you; yours didn't - it contained her.

You put your finger on the problem with seeing the world in black and white. It's too easy to use a single, disparaging word, like "lazy," to describe a huge segment of humanity. It gives one an excuse to have no feeling for them.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> And the religious right that produce text books that tell the story as they want it told, not necessarily the truth.


(Shh. That's what I meant by know-nothing textbooks.)


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> I use to work with a lady whose husband was a 3rd grade teacher and she and her husband were certain that there was no hope for these so called "lazy kids." She was a Jehovahs Witness so you would think she was a good christian, maybe. I told her how despicable I thought they both were and that her husband needed a new profession. People like that should not be teachers.


Good for you for telling them how unfitted they were to be teachers.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> If you talk to people who have worked in public schools for any length of time, you would know that money is ALWAYS an issue. When I first moved to California and saw my son's first school, I wanted to cry. There are budget shortages in every single area of public school functioning---not to mention the fact that teachers are never paid enough


My daughter, an artist who runs her own successful business, always commented on this when she was still in high school. Her art teacher was always short on supplies. If they got to paint on canvas, they had to paint over what they had done so as to reuse the canvas unless they could afford to purchase their own things. Rest assured there was enough money to take the football players to their next game, but not enough money to take the drill team to state competition. Both of my daughters were on the drill team in the 80's, and loved it, but it has been eliminated now because of budget cuts. This discussion could open up a whole new can of worms.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I've heard it said that no two people ever live in the same family. Your sister's family contained you; yours didn't - it contained her.
> 
> You put your finger on the problem with seeing the world in black and white. It's too easy to use a single, disparaging word, like "lazy," to describe a huge segment of humanity. It gives one an excuse to have no feeling for them.


That is what I have such a problem with from those on the right -- they put people into rigid groups -- all, young people who have not jobs are no good -- they don't look at those who come from povery, they don't see those who have been abused, they don't see those who have never been able to go to school, they see everyone as the same -- People are not the same.

As you say, they call people who don't work 'Lazy' what about those who have illnesses that don't allow them to work. are they lazy? what about people who come from abusive homes- no one has ever taught them hope. What about those in Black ghettos that are 'known' as being useless - and who are raised knowing they are considered less than others- you wonder why they are angry and act out? so many problems - so many reasons. Certainly there are some who take advantage - but when half the country has absolutely no sympathy for their situation, even if they can't find work , even if they are ill, you wonder why they turn to drugs and crime. It is sad.

And you see people like in my Country who are hired to 'run' a company and after 2 or 3 years they leave with a 'package ' of hundreds of thousands of dollars-- (some are Government agencies) The are the 'entitled' and don't give a darn about those who are trying but getting no where. It isn't happening just in the States -- money breeds power, power is the most important thing -- more and more and more -- who cares about the poor person who is fighting to survive -- the widow who raised children and is left alone once they grow up. She never had a chance to earn a pension, she scrubbed floors and fought every day to feed her family. Soooo sad. and Yet people on the right are always saying all those who require help are dead beats.

That is why I am a liberal -- from a very Conservative family. that feel their way is the only right way -- no discussion , just an overwhelming feeling of entitlement. Everyone has a label.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> I once ventured the opinion that the rich are too rich. I received some quite unpleasant responses: someone asked me, "How dare you say what is too much money?" I was quite new to KP and a little surprised. I'm afraid I have to treat some of the American posters on here as an anthropological study, because I really don't understand them (not the LOLLs, of course).


Yes, I can imagine the responses that might have brought you, even though you were right of course.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> NJG said:
> 
> 
> > The rich also use to have respect for those who worked for them and called them family and wanted them to do well, but things have changed. In my opinion. the rich have become very greedy and want more and more for themselves and less for their employees. It is their employees making all this money for them and they are just sitting behind their desk trying to find more ways to keep it in their pocket and not share with those employees. How many homes can you live in at one time? How many cars can you drive on a daily basis? How much time do you need to spend the money you make. Do you need to get really creative to come up with new ways to spend your money like for a car elevator? Do you need to get really creative to find new loopholes and new places to stash it off shore?
> ...


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> How can we stay away from the CEO believing or receiving anything? Major shareholders hire them because they bring more money to them. They don't care whether he does it on the backs of the workers! Yes! They're greedy! But "we" can't do anything about it. You might say we should regulate them. OK, but then if they move their money elsewhere, people lose the jobs altogether. "They" own the politicians, ALL of them! The politicians SAY they want to fix things but they don't! Because you don't bite the hand that feeds you!


The one and only thing we can do is vote, but too many people are voting against their own self interest, and vote for their party.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> That is what I have such a problem with from those on the right -- they put people into rigid groups -- all, young people who have not jobs are no good -- they don't look at those who come from povery, they don't see those who have been abused, they don't see those who have never been able to go to school, they see everyone as the same -- People are not the same.
> 
> As you say, they call people who don't work 'Lazy' what about those who have illnesses that don't allow them to work. are they lazy? what about people who come from abusive homes- no one has ever taught them hope. What about those in Black ghettos that are 'known' as being useless - and who are raised knowing they are considered less than others- you wonder why they are angry and act out? so many problems - so many reasons. Certainly there are some who take advantage - but when half the country has absolutely no sympathy for their situation, even if they can't find work , even if they are ill, you wonder why they turn to drugs and crime. It is sad.
> 
> ...


I have nothing to say that would add to this. It sums up so much.

Except to point out that you live in a nation of pikers. In my country, when someone leaves after running a company (usually into the ground), he get a few hundred million, not a few hundred thousand.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree, BUT what are the costs to our society of allowing these things to exist? Sometimes you HAVE to stand up for what's right, even if it costs you.


Sure, but the problem is it costs the little guy too much and doesn't cost him anything. If he looses the team ownership in the end, he is still going to be ok, but the other guy may be out of a job and have no place to live. Takes a long time for that person to recover if even possible.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

NJG said:


> The one and only thing we can do is vote, but too many people are voting against their own self interest, and vote for their party.


To many people vote their personal moral beliefs such as choice and the death penalty, not on economic issues that deeply affect them on a daily basis.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm saying that minimum wage earners were in the same position in 1973 that they are in now, in 2014! Fighting to make ends meet, robbing Peter to pay Paul, scraping to put food on the table. Minimum wage has increased many, many times since then, but it hasn't worked! Minimum wage goes up, prices go up! You're chasing your tail and nothing changes except that middle income workers pay more too! Your middle income salary becomes worth much less and pretty soon, we won't have middle income workers. And I think that's their intent!
> 
> Another thing: the real problem is not so much that the population has increased, its that the jobs have decreased! The politicians on both side of the aisle made it possible for them to have the work done elsewhere for slave wages! The jobs are gone!


And I'm saying that not raising the minimum wage would not make things better for them either. There have always been minimum wage workers and there always will be, but we can never forget about them and allow the rich to pay them what ever they want. You can't believe that they should still be earning $1.80 do you? Minimum wage workers are no longer just teenagers and never will be again. Minimum wage workers are raising families.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> When so many businesses (even corporations) were family-owned, there probably was a more personal relationship between owner and worker. It's tough to be hard-nosed when you grew up with the man who now works for you. That way of doing business is almost gone, and the families who still run the businesses are people like the Waltons, who have an endless desire for more and more money. Isn't it odd that a person with an endless desire for liquor or food is thought to have something wrong with him/her but an endless desire for money makes you someone to be admired?
> 
> During the 50s, 60s, and 70s, there was a feeling that this was one country, that we were all in it together. It wasn't just poor men who fought in WWII; rich men, movie stars, everyone fought. Now it isn't one country any more. It saddens me.
> 
> But to say that there's no place for a minimum wage is to say that some people are just there to be used and aren't even of the same species.


I agree. I hadn't thought of the addiction to money, but I guess that is what it is, just like a hoarder with all their "things."


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I agree l00% -- people's background, what they have lived through and sometimes survived, their family dynamic, and so may other things -- what they have been taught, whether they have grown up abused -- all these things affect how they deal with life. That is a fact. You can't put people into squares and boxes -- it just doesn't work. YOu take 20 people and they are all different, with different fears, different abilities, different strengths, so many different things.
> 
> There is one - if you are raised in poverty you have a lot more to do to get yourself out of poverty than if you are raised in a middle class family. Even a marriage can cause a difference in their feelings about them selves-- you can be lucky like I am where my husband believes I can do anything I want to - (full support which gives me confidence that I can accomplish what I want to accomplish) and those who have been told that they are useless, unable to cope, stupid -- do you think that doesn't affect their lives, whether they are afraid or whether they have courage to make decisions???
> 
> ...


And imagine all the poor children hearing themselves talked about on a daily basis on the news. All they hear is cuts to food stamps, do you think they might worry about being hungry? Then they have to go to school and be able to concentrate and learn. Then those republican congress men/women pat themselves on the back and continue spewing all their crap. Disgusting. They either have no idea the harm they are doing, or they just don't care.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I like this thread- it is a discussion not a group of people throwing insults at each other -- or a group who are patting themselves on the back, about how great they are and how stupid and ignorant a large portion of the population is. Absolutely no feeling of compassion for those who have less and are struggling to live and to deal with racism, and poverty and illness and unemployment - they are okay so all the rest of the country be damned. sooo sad.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

I too like this thread. The only problem is the time difference. The most activity takes place when I should be in bed, so if I do see something I want to respond to, it's too late for any coherent, well-crafted contribution. I'm always impressed by the quality of the arguments on here.

On an anthropological note, I no longer shudder at the mention of "fur babies" or God. I must be getting acclimatised.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> I agree. I hadn't thought of the addiction to money, but I guess that is what it is, just like a hoarder with all their "things."


Thom Hartmann used to compare this hyper-greed to a mental illness.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> I too like this thread. The only problem is the time difference. The most activity takes place when I should be in bed, so if I do see something I want to respond to, it's too late for any coherent, well-crafted contribution. I'm always impressed by the quality of the arguments on here.
> 
> On an anthropological note, I no longer shudder at the mention of "fur babies" or God. I must be getting acclimatised.


I hope you're not headed for the Rainbow Bridge. I've been assured that I'll meet up there with my deceased fur baby Crazy.

You needn't worry about the time difference. I think most of us are used to carrying on conversations that have long spaces between utterances. (I knew a woman who, as she slid deeper into dementia, would pick up the last conversation we had from where we left off, even if we hadn't met in months. It was very eerie without Quote Reply.)


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Thom Hartmann used to compare this hyper-greed to a mental illness.


Ooh, Thom Hartmann. Another of my boyfriends! We used to listen to him faithfully, but we don't get him now. I think he's on a cable channel somewhere.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> The interview below is from Democracy Now. Amy Goodman interviews Robert Reich. This is especially for KnitterfromNebraska.
> 
> Robert Reich, former secretary of labor under President Bill Clinton and professor at the University of California, Berkeley. He is featured in the new film, Inequality for All, which will be released on September 27. He is author of many books, including Aftershock: The Next Economy & Americas Future and Beyond Outrage: What Has Gone Wrong with Our Economy and Our Democracy, and How to Fix It.
> 
> ...


WHEW! I finally finished it!!! Actually I started before fixing dinner and after we went to the nursery to get some plants. OK, here's my take. I agree with a lot of what he's saying. The deck is stacked against us and things are not fair! Much of what he starts to say (but never quite finishes) is like the stuff I've read. He says that politicians won't fix it but stops short of saying they are in on it. The people with the big money, manipulate things worldwide! They control the money, worldwide! And they have cheated us, worldwide. Money is power! Money is control! Our government and governments of the world have given these people free rein. The web is tangled so deep, Im not sure it can ever be untangled. His ideas of solutions make me think that he's in on it! He speaks of "ecological sustainability and adequate distribution of wealth and intellectual use of natural resources". This brings to mind two things, Agenda 21 and carbon credits. And when anybody talks of redistributing the wealth, I know that they want to take it from the middle class! First, " ecological sustainability, they're talking about changing our lives in way we can't even imagine! No cars, no travel, housing where people are packed in like sardines. When they talk "sustainability" they're talking Agenda 21. There's a democrat named Rosa Koire who has made it her life's work to study Agenda 21. Go to her web site and learn. Second, redistribution of wealth. They own the world's governments and the world's armies! Do you really think they're going to let you take THEIR wealth? NO! They're going to take it from the middle class like they always do! Third, intellectual use of resources. This sounds exactly like the carbon tax scheme. What this will do is make your heating bill so high, you won't be able to afford to hear your home (oh, but then you can move into an agenda 21 apartment). You won't be able to afford gas for your car (oh, son of a gun, the agenda 21 apartments with your employer downstairs will fix that too)! You won't be able to afford your yarn (or anything else) because by the time the companies buy the carbon credits and pass that cost along to you, the price will be out of your reach!

He suggests that the people themselves can bring about this change. How? By asking for our own ruination? Or maybe we can all meet in the park. Oh, wait! That sounds like the tea party! It took about 5 seconds for the globalists to coopt that movement! I think the ONLY thing that will stop this is for the people to be AWARE of what's really going on! This guy describes the problem very well but don't forget! He works for THEM!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> WHEW! I finally finished it!!! Actually I started before fixing dinner and after we went to the nursery to get some plants. OK, here's my take. I agree with a lot of what he's saying. The deck is stacked against us and things are not fair! Much of what he starts to say (but never quite finishes) is like the stuff I've read. He says that politicians won't fix it but stops short of saying they are in on it. The people with the big money, manipulate things worldwide! They control the money, worldwide! And they have cheated us, worldwide. Money is power! Money is control! Our government and governments of the world have given these people free rein. The web is tangled so deep, Im not sure it can ever be untangled. His ideas of solutions make me think that he's in on it! He speaks of "ecological sustainability and adequate distribution of wealth and intellectual use of natural resources". This brings to mind two things, Agenda 21 and carbon credits. And when anybody talks of redistributing the wealth, I know that they want to take it from the middle class! First, " ecological sustainability, they're talking about changing our lives in way we can't even imagine! No cars, no travel, housing where people are packed in like sardines. When they talk "sustainability" they're talking Agenda 21. There's a democrat named Rosa Koire who has made it her life's work to study Agenda 21. Go to her web site and learn. Second, redistribution of wealth. They own the world's governments and the world's armies! Do you really think they're going to let you take THEIR wealth? NO! They're going to take it from the middle class like they always do! Third, intellectual use of resources. This sounds exactly like the carbon tax scheme. What this will do is make your heating bill so high, you won't be able to afford to hear your home (oh, but then you can move into an agenda 21 apartment). You won't be able to afford gas for your car (oh, son of a gun, the agenda 21 apartments with your employer downstairs will fix that too)! You won't be able to afford your yarn (or anything else) because by the time the companies buy the carbon credits and pass that cost along to you, the price will be out of your reach!
> 
> He suggests that the people themselves can bring about this change. How? By asking for our own ruination? Or maybe we can all meet in the park. Oh, wait! That sounds like the tea party! It took about 5 seconds for the globalists to coopt that movement! I think the ONLY thing that will stop this is for the people to be AWARE of what's really going on! This guy describes the problem very well but don't forget! He works for THEM!


You got farther than I did. Congratulations.
I still want to know who "they" is.
You jump too fast and too high to something I consider "out there."


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Nebraska really gets it. "

Coopting globalists!!!!!!! Reich does indeed work for THEM. Thanks for waking us up to that glaring contradiction. Neb. is a radical thinker albeit religious. Interesting woman.

'They' refers to the wealthiest who run this country and whose pockets all presidents reside in - the real White House. "They" also refers to the military chiefs who gobble up most of our tax dollars and can impose their will on us since they are powerful and have all the weapons and soldiers to enforce their standards.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You're right, up to a point. Roosevelt was super-rich, but he seemed to have a heart. I think it's also all the money made on the stock market, which no longer has anything to do with investing in businesses but is just a gambling casino. All those Wall St. smart-a$$es have convinced themselves that they've earned their money, when in fact all they've done is figure out how to take it away from people who aren't as cutthroat as they are.


Roosevelt represented the big money just like the rest. The big money people caused or created world war II. They wanted war, first because war means money, big money! The bankers from the US, including George Bush's granddaddy financed Hitler and brought him to power. Then they financed all sides. Like I said, there's big money to be made. They wanted the US to enter the war (more money). Roosevelt tried to get the people behind it but the people weren't buying it. The attack on Pearl Harbor was basically a false flag operation. Government documents have been released showing that our government manipulated Japan into attacking. They knew that Japan was going to attack and when. They moved the ships they wanted to save, out of the harbor and filled it with the ones they didn't care about. They obviously didn't care about the people on those ships either! THAT got us into the war! So, NO! I don't think Roosevelt was such a great guy after all! The bankers made a ton of money off that war and a lot of people died!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

NJG said:


> Do you really believe it is fair for a ceo to receive a $500,000 bonus and for his employees to be paid minimum wage? Does he work that much harder? Is his education that much better? Why do you call the poor person a "lazy man?" I don't think anyone has ever said the ceo needs to be paid the same as his employees, but in days past the employer thought the employee had value and importance. Not the case any more. Sometimes you slip up and let your true colors show through, like with that "lazy man" comment.


Fair? What's fair? Nothing is fair! I'm sorry to tell you but a person's work is worth what someone is willing to pay for it! Now, if the jobs hadn't been sent to China and elsewhere, the people could demand higher wages because corporations would need them. But thanks to our politicians, we are nothing but a consumer nation! I NEVER said that poor men were lazy! I said that until this depression, people COULD make their own choices! That was true! Some ARE lazy! Some work hard but were lazy in their thinking that they had no choices. I didn't slip up. I said what I mean! This used to be a country where ANYONE who was willing to work hard and take risks COULD do anything! You can't say that isn't true! Many have done it!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

NJG said:


> It also depends on the choices one has available and the life experiences they have to help them make those choices. All things are not equal.


Before this depression, what choices were not available?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Roosevelt represented the big money just like the rest. The big money people caused or created world war II. They wanted war, first because war means money, big money! The bankers from the US, including George Bush's granddaddy financed Hitler and brought him to power. Then they financed all sides. Like I said, there's big money to be made. They wanted the US to enter the war (more money). Roosevelt tried to get the people behind it but the people weren't buying it. The attack on Pearl Harbor was basically a false flag operation. Government documents have been released showing that our government manipulated Japan into attacking. They knew that Japan was going to attack and when. They moved the ships they wanted to save, out of the harbor and filled it with the ones they didn't care about. They obviously didn't care about the people on those ships either! THAT got us into the war! So, NO! I don't think Roosevelt was such a great guy after all! The bankers made a ton of money off that war and a lot of people died!


Can't help lovin' that poster of mine!

Also let us not forget that Roosevelt refused to open doors to East European refugees and he could have bombed the German/Polish rail systems.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Making us think. And we're having the same effect on you. You can always go back to D&D and talk about gardening and cream cheese and how dumb you think we are.


Well I do love to garden. And I do have a great recipe using cream cheese. I haven't shared it yet because I was too lazy to go look it up. I don't however talk about how dumb anybody is! I haven't met any dumb people on here. But I have met some uninformed. My goal is to inform them.😀 I don't intend to stop going on D&P either. I like it there too. They welcomed me immediately!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> That is very, very creepy - very sci-fi. Who is your senator?


Mike Johanns! He used to be the secretary of agriculture. Agenda 21 is real! Go on Rosa Koire's web site. She's a democrat!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

NJG said:


> And there you are grouping them all together as one. Yes, there are people like you talk about, but many are not like that at all. You do such a disservice to them. They send backpacks of food home so the kids have food for the weekend. You have no right to assume it is because of how their parent takes care of them. You are not living in their home, you are just being judgmental.


I think that it makes no diffence what I say. Even if I agreed with you, you'd come up with some reason to attack me! Because we don't see eye to eye on the details, you attack! OK! You can be right! You're right about everything! Now, can I carry on discussion with people who are interested?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

NJG said:


> She thinks the basics are good enough for the "lazy mans" kids and the rest who make better choices will get a better education.


You lie! I NEVER said that!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I agree l00% -- people's background, what they have lived through and sometimes survived, their family dynamic, and so may other things -- what they have been taught, whether they have grown up abused -- all these things affect how they deal with life. That is a fact. You can't put people into squares and boxes -- it just doesn't work. YOu take 20 people and they are all different, with different fears, different abilities, different strengths, so many different things.
> 
> There is one - if you are raised in poverty you have a lot more to do to get yourself out of poverty than if you are raised in a middle class family. Even a marriage can cause a difference in their feelings about them selves-- you can be lucky like I am where my husband believes I can do anything I want to - (full support which gives me confidence that I can accomplish what I want to accomplish) and those who have been told that they are useless, unable to cope, stupid -- do you think that doesn't affect their lives, whether they are afraid or whether they have courage to make decisions???
> 
> ...


If that were true, you wouldn't see people who have come out of disastrous situations and make it! In fact, you wouldn't see me! My mother had mental problems, was addicted to prescribed drugs and was an alcoholic! She neglected us and abused my brother which we all witnessed. She packed her bags and left us many times. My childhood was one trauma after another! I had a scar under my nose from having a birthmark removed with dry ice. I grew up being called "frozen booger"! We were poor! We ate pancakes and cornbread for supper! What else can I say? Never was anyone as beat down as I was! I had a choice! I could remain a victim or CHANGE it! I changed it! So don't tell me that I don't understand!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> (Shh. That's what I meant by know-nothing textbooks.)


The religious right doesn't make the textbooks! Its the liberal left that does that! Education in this country is very liberal.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:



> That is what I have such a problem with from those on the right -- they put people into rigid groups -- all, young people who have not jobs are no good -- they don't look at those who come from povery, they don't see those who have been abused, they don't see those who have never been able to go to school, they see everyone as the same -- People are not the same.
> 
> As you say, they call people who don't work 'Lazy' what about those who have illnesses that don't allow them to work. are they lazy? what about people who come from abusive homes- no one has ever taught them hope. What about those in Black ghettos that are 'known' as being useless - and who are raised knowing they are considered less than others- you wonder why they are angry and act out? so many problems - so many reasons. Certainly there are some who take advantage - but when half the country has absolutely no sympathy for their situation, even if they can't find work , even if they are ill, you wonder why they turn to drugs and crime. It is sad.
> 
> ...


Look at your first paragraph! You declare that the right puts people into groups and that is exactly what YOU have done by putting the "right" into a group! I call that hypocracy!!!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

NJG said:


> So how do we change that, as it is getting worse.


I don't know! I only KNOW that what we've been doing doesn't work! I'd like to throw everybody out of government and start over! Did you know that our founding fathers didn't intend for politics to be a career? They were to live in their home states and serve short terms. They weren't to control every aspect of our lives. Our government is out of control! How do we control them? I'd like to go back to being the republic that our founding fathers gave us!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

NJG said:


> The one and only thing we can do is vote, but too many people are voting against their own self interest, and vote for their party.


I don't think that voting will really make a difference. The politicians are owned! All of them! The web is too big! I vote anyway. But it feels futile!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The religious right doesn't make the textbooks! Its the liberal left that does that! Education in this country is very liberal.


Nonsense. The Texas school board has more influence on textbook publishing than any group of teachers. Teachers may, in general, be liberal, but the books are definitely not.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> If that were true, you wouldn't see people who have come out of disastrous situations and make it! In fact, you wouldn't see me! My mother had mental problems, was addicted to prescribed drugs and was an alcoholic! She neglected us and abused my brother which we all witnessed. She packed her bags and left us many times. My childhood was one trauma after another! I had a scar under my nose from having a birthmark removed with dry ice. I grew up being called "frozen booger"! We were poor! We ate pancakes and cornbread for supper! What else can I say? Never was anyone as beat down as I was! I had a choice! I could remain a victim or CHANGE it! I changed it! So don't tell me that I don't understand!


A pretty traumatic childhood--what else can I say except that I'm truly sorry. You obviously are a strong woman to have survived all that and made a good life for yourself.

Still, not all children possess such strength and (unfortunately) some face even more difficult life circumstances. And I truly don't believe the majority of children have a decent shot at life if they're malnourished or ill from lack of medical care. It was wrong for you to have to struggle along alone as a child, and I believe some of today's children need a helping hand as well.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> To many people vote their personal moral beliefs such as choice and the death penalty, not on economic issues that deeply affect them on a daily basis.


Different people have different priorities! Their priorities are as valid as yours. People's views also differ on how to solve the problems. Some people aren't even aware that we have economic issues. On the news, they're told that everything is getting better. They believe it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Look at your first paragraph! You declare that the right puts people into groups and that is exactly what YOU have done by putting the "right" into a group! I call that hypocracy!!!


Then you don't understand what hypocrisy is. The right, at least in this country, has chosen to go in lock-step on many issues, to the extent that they have formed themselves into a very rigid group.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

NJG said:


> And I'm saying that not raising the minimum wage would not make things better for them either. There have always been minimum wage workers and there always will be, but we can never forget about them and allow the rich to pay them what ever they want. You can't believe that they should still be earning $1.80 do you? Minimum wage workers are no longer just teenagers and never will be again. Minimum wage workers are raising families.


What WOULD make things better for them? I'm not saying we SHOULDNT have a minimum wage. I'm saying it doesn't work! It doesn't make things better for them!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What WOULD make things better for them? I'm not saying we SHOULDNT have a minimum wage. I'm saying it doesn't work! It doesn't make things better for them!


I don't believe that it doesn't work. You seem to assume that all it will mean is less money for profit, and therefore prices will automatically go up. But if wages went up, the immediate result will be that all that money will be spent, resulting in more income for businesses. There's more than one way to increase profits, and cheating employees is not the best way.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> You got farther than I did. Congratulations.
> I still want to know who "they" is.
> You jump too fast and too high to something I consider "out there."


They are the people with all the money! They own the federal reserve and the central banks of all the major countries. They are the majority shareholders in the top 500 corporations. They own the TV networks and stations. They own the radio stations and the newspapers. They own the politicians and they think they own you! Its a massive conspiracy and its not a theory! It is " out there"! Its crazy! But its true! Research it! They are the 1%!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Nebraska really gets it. "
> 
> Coopting globalists!!!!!!! Reich does indeed work for THEM. Thanks for waking us up to that glaring contradiction. Neb. is a radical thinker albeit religious. Interesting woman.
> 
> 'They' refers to the wealthiest who run this country and whose pockets all presidents reside in - the real White House. "They" also refers to the military chiefs who gobble up most of our tax dollars and can impose their will on us since they are powerful and have all the weapons and soldiers to enforce their standards.


You understand! You really have to stretch your mind to get it, don't you? It took me a long time to start seeing the big picture. And I'm sure I've barely scratched the surface!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Can't help lovin' that poster of mine!
> 
> Also let us not forget that Roosevelt refused to open doors to East European refugees and he could have bombed the German/Polish rail systems.


I didn't know that! Thanks!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Nonsense. The Texas school board has more influence on textbook publishing than any group of teachers. Teachers may, in general, be liberal, but the books are definitely not.


I don't know what textbooks you're looking at! Texas was one of the first to experiment with whole language. They were also one of the first to use common core! Texas in general may be conservative but their educators are not!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The religious right doesn't make the textbooks! Its the liberal left that does that! Education in this country is very liberal.


I disagree. Education is "very liberal" to a person who is very conservative. And I think the religious right has more to say by trying to inject creationism, etc. into textbooks.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Nonsense. The Texas school board has more influence on textbook publishing than any group of teachers. Teachers may, in general, be liberal, but the books are definitely not.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: 
Didn't read this before I replied


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> A pretty traumatic childhood--what else can I say except that I'm truly sorry. You obviously are a strong woman to have survived all that and made a good life for yourself.
> 
> Still, not all children possess such strength and (unfortunately) some face even more difficult life circumstances. And I truly don't believe the majority of children have a decent shot at life if they're malnourished or ill from lack of medical care. It was wrong for you to have to struggle along alone as a child, and I believe some of today's children need a helping hand as well.


I think that we should be using our energies telling them that they can do whatever they want! It doesn't help them to be victims. And in case you missed the part about what we had for suppers, WE were malnourished. We were never told to brush our teeth and went to the dentist ONE time. When the dentist yelled at my mother, we never went back! We rarely went to the Dr's office. Did however see him when he came to the house to give my mother a shot. Short of me writing a book, suffice it to say that the human spirit can overcome!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Then you don't understand what hypocrisy is. The right, at least in this country, has chosen to go in lock-step on many issues, to the extent that they have formed themselves into a very rigid group.


And they say the same thing about the left. And it was hypocracy because she was doing the same thing she was criticizing. Not all people on the right are the same, like not all people on the left are the same. Each person deserves to be judged by their own words and actions.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I don't believe that it doesn't work. You seem to assume that all it will mean is less money for profit, and therefore prices will automatically go up. But if wages went up, the immediate result will be that all that money will be spent, resulting in more income for businesses. There's more than one way to increase profits, and cheating employees is not the best way.


It isn't about what I think. It's what happens. That's why minimum wage workers always struggle. Minimum wage has been increased many times. Can you show me where they have ever had a better life? I'm not saying we shouldn't have a minimum wage or that we shouldn't raise it. I'm only saying that it won't help them at all and it harms other workers who don't get the raise. I'm not heartless, only a realist.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think that we should be using our energies telling them that they can do whatever they want! It doesn't help them to be victims. And in case you missed the part about what we had for suppers, WE were malnourished. We were never told to brush our teeth and went to the dentist ONE time. When the dentist yelled at my mother, we never went back! We rarely went to the Dr's office. Did however see him when he came to the house to give my mother a shot. Short of me writing a book, suffice it to say that the human spirit can overcome!


Well, of course it can--but that doesn't mean that there isn't plenty of needless human suffering along the way. I truly don't think we as a society would be comfortable seeing abandoned children sleeping under freeway overpasses or scrounging through garbage cans for their food. That's the sink or swim approach--almost unimaginable in our society (at least as far as children are concerned) but sadly the reality in many developing countries.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> I disagree. Education is "very liberal" to a person who is very conservative. And I think the religious right has more to say by trying to inject creationism, etc. into textbooks.


"Trying" being the key word. To my knowledge, they've never succeeded! And frankly, creationism is no more fantastical than darwinism. There has never been one shred of evidence for cross species evolution, and yet, people believe it happened, just because someone said so! Why is that any different from creationism?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Oops! Been spelling hypocrisy wrong! Just noticed! Sorry.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Well, of course it can--but that doesn't mean that there isn't plenty of needless human suffering along the way. I truly don't think we as a society would be comfortable seeing abandoned children sleeping under freeway overpasses or scrounging through garbage cans for their food. That's the sink or swim approach--almost unimaginable in our society (at least as far as children are concerned) but sadly the reality in many developing countries.


No, I wouldn't like to see homeless abandoned children either. But I can't control that. That is a choice of the parents. Social safety nets such as welfare, food stamps, shelters etc...are available but you can't force people to use them. I'm not for the sink or swim approach. I'm for the empowerment approach. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to catch a fish and you feed him for a lifetime.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The religious right doesn't make the textbooks! Its the liberal left that does that! Education in this country is very liberal.


The following don't seem to agree with you. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/jun/21/how-texas-inflicts-bad-textbooks-on-us/

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/culture/are-conservatives-in-texas-rewriting-history/736/ followed by http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/culture/so-goes-texas-so-goes-the-nation/754/

http://billmoyers.com/content/messing-with-texas-textbooks/


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No, I wouldn't like to see homeless abandoned children either. But I can't control that. That is a choice of the parents. Social safety nets such as welfare, food stamps, shelters etc...are available but you can't force people to use them. I'm not for the sink or swim approach. I'm for the empowerment approach. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to catch a fish and you feed him for a lifetime.


I think saying homeless children is a "choice of the parents" is a bit harsh and saying that you can't control that is rationalizing. If they're sinking and not being empowered the choice for us must be to help them. Feed them. Provide shelter. So far I haven't seen any solutions from you.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It isn't about what I think. It's what happens. That's why minimum wage workers always struggle. Minimum wage has been increased many times. Can you show me where they have ever had a better life? I'm not saying we shouldn't have a minimum wage or that we shouldn't raise it. I'm only saying that it won't help them at all and it harms other workers who don't get the raise. I'm not heartless, only a realist.


I can't exactly show you, but I know that my father was helped by it, and therefore his family. We also lived in public housing for 15 years, until my parents had saved enough to move to a better apartment. And my parents were not lazy, or dependent on handouts. My father worked every day, well or sick, because that's what people do. He was happy to have work, but was equally happy when he became eligible for Social Security and could quit his exhausting blue-collar factory job.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Absolutely true.



Poor Purl said:


> Nonsense. The Texas school board has more influence on textbook publishing than any group of teachers. Teachers may, in general, be liberal, but the books are definitely not.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Who are you discussing?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> They are the people with all the money! They own the federal reserve and the central banks of all the major countries. They are the majority shareholders in the top 500 corporations. They own the TV networks and stations. They own the radio stations and the newspapers. They own the politicians and they think they own you! Its a massive conspiracy and its not a theory! It is " out there"! Its crazy! But its true! Research it! They are the 1%!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

They have removed evolution and/or added creationism to the study of science.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't know what textbooks you're looking at! Texas was one of the first to experiment with whole language. They were also one of the first to use common core! Texas in general may be conservative but their educators are not!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You understand! You really have to stretch your mind to get it, don't you? It took me a long time to start seeing the big picture. And I'm sure I've barely scratched the surface!


Nope. I have a masters in Marxist Theory and that is how I have been trained to see the world. Plus that was my dad's outlook so it all makes sense and is easy for me. But seeing underneath is not always fun.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Well, of course it can--but that doesn't mean that there isn't plenty of needless human suffering along the way. I truly don't think we as a society would be comfortable seeing abandoned children sleeping under freeway overpasses or scrounging through garbage cans for their food. That's the sink or swim approach--almost unimaginable in our society (at least as far as children are concerned) but sadly the reality in many developing countries.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

There is proof in the form of ancient artifacts that can be carbon dated to place them specifically in a period of history. 
This makes it science rather than 'because someone says so.'



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> "Trying" being the key word. To my knowledge, they've never succeeded! And frankly, creationism is no more fantastical than darwinism. There has never been one shred of evidence for cross species evolution, and yet, people believe it happened, just because someone said so! Why is that any different from creationism?


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Worth saying twice.


 Twice was an accident, the bad sentence was an accident, too. Anyway, I don't have much use for people who tell me I'm going to Hell.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

How great can heaven be if you know Hell exists? I am always cold so hell is okay with me. I pictured it like Boca Raton without Meisner's. Anyway, hell is a total fiction so I don't care what is being said. Harry Potter's school is more real for me than hell certainly is.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Roosevelt represented the big money just like the rest. The big money people caused or created world war II. They wanted war, first because war means money, big money! The bankers from the US, including George Bush's granddaddy financed Hitler and brought him to power. Then they financed all sides. Like I said, there's big money to be made. They wanted the US to enter the war (more money). Roosevelt tried to get the people behind it but the people weren't buying it. The attack on Pearl Harbor was basically a false flag operation. Government documents have been released showing that our government manipulated Japan into attacking. They knew that Japan was going to attack and when. They moved the ships they wanted to save, out of the harbor and filled it with the ones they didn't care about. They obviously didn't care about the people on those ships either! THAT got us into the war! So, NO! I don't think Roosevelt was such a great guy after all! The bankers made a ton of money off that war and a lot of people died!


But don't forget that WWII wiped out that pesky Great Depression. Lots of jobs for lots of people in the war industry...


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I think saying homeless children is a "choice of the parents" is a bit harsh and saying that you can't control that is rationalizing. If they're sinking and not being empowered the choice for us must be to help them. Feed them. Provide shelter. So far I haven't seen any solutions from you.


A very rational statement, al, I agree with you wholeheartedly.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think like you do on this one. The idea of Heaven or Hell seems like a fairy tale to me. It's nice and toasty in the Southwest, and I like it too.



SQM said:


> How great can heaven be if you know Hell exists? I am always cold so hell is okay with me. I pictured it like Boca Raton without Meisner's. Anyway, hell is a total fiction so I don't care what is being said. Harry Potter's school is more real for me than hell certainly is.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> But don't forget that WWII wiped out that pesky Great Depression. Lots of jobs for lots of people in the war industry...


I completely disagree with you. Yes, there were people who wanted war -- but the United States stayed out of the war in Europe even though the British were nearly starving and Hitler was marching through Europe. canada was nearly bankrupted and we sent more ment to fight the Nazis per capita that any other place. We were at the end of our rope -- Then Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. Are you saying or implying that Roosevelt was in cahoots with Japan to have them attack the US? i know there are people who have been told that but I would bet my bottom dollar it is not the truth.

I will finish this when I get home - from an appointment. You speak it as if you were there and know it to be truth -- I don't believe it -- I lived through the war and read the news both from the War with Japan and with Hitler.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> http://eagnews.org/10th-grade-class-reads-erotic-novel-recommended-by-common-core-proponents/
> http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2014/02/21/common-core-pornography/
> http://news.yahoo.com/fifty-shades-common-core-much-porn-too-much-125010622.html
> 
> Want more? Just Google "common core porn"


No required reading lists

Do the English language arts standards include a required reading list?
No. The Common Core State Standards include sample texts that demonstrate the level of text complexity appropriate for the grade level and compatible with the learning demands set out in the standards. The exemplars of high-quality texts at each grade level provide a rich set of possibilities. This ensures teachers have the flexibility to make their own decisions about what texts to use, while providing an excellent reference point when selecting their texts.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I completely disagree with you. Yes, there were people who wanted war -- but the United States stayed out of the war in Europe even though the British were nearly starving and Hitler was marching through Europe. canada was nearly bankrupted and we sent more ment to fight the Nazis per capita that any other place. We were at the end of our rope -- Then Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. Are you saying or implying that Roosevelt was in cahoots with Japan to have them attack the US? i know there are people who have been told that but I would bet my bottom dollar it is not the truth.
> 
> I will finish this when I get home - from an appointment. You speak it as if you were there and know it to be truth -- I don't believe it -- I lived through the war and read the news both from the War with Japan and with Hitler.


Hi, Designer--I'm sure Maid meant no offense by commenting that WW2 helped end the Great Depression in the US--and certainly doesn't believe that Roosevelt was in league with Japan.

I think many Americans (and I'm one of them) feel a fair amount of guilt and chagrin over the sad fact that a war that spelled death for tens of millions was, at the same time, a most profitable venture for our nation. It speaks volumes about the inherent nature of our military/industrial complex, and it's nothing to be proud of.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ah yes, Al, but not as tintilating as soft porn offered to students as part of Common Core State Standards. No word of discretion at the local level. Sigh.



alcameron said:


> No required reading lists
> 
> Do the English language arts standards include a required reading list?
> No. The Common Core State Standards include sample texts that demonstrate the level of text complexity appropriate for the grade level and compatible with the learning demands set out in the standards. The exemplars of high-quality texts at each grade level provide a rich set of possibilities. This ensures teachers have the flexibility to make their own decisions about what texts to use, while providing an excellent reference point when selecting their texts.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> How great can heaven be if you know Hell exists? I am always cold so hell is okay with me. I pictured it like Boca Raton without Meisner's. Anyway, hell is a total fiction so I don't care what is being said. Harry Potter's school is more real for me than hell certainly is.


I have seen, heard and read the utterances from the mob who reckon they are certainly going to heaven and all I can say is "if they are going there I certainly do not want to go there, it would be pure hell."


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I have seen, heard and read the utterances from the mob who reckon they are certainly going to heaven and all I can say is "if they are going there I certainly do not want to go there, it would be pure hell."


Ms. Eve, fools and idiots don't make you grumpy; they make you very funny. I'd like to end up wherever you end up. It would be much more interesting than either heaven or hell.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I completely disagree with you. Yes, there were people who wanted war -- but the United States stayed out of the war in Europe even though the British were nearly starving and Hitler was marching through Europe. canada was nearly bankrupted and we sent more ment to fight the Nazis per capita that any other place. We were at the end of our rope -- Then Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. Are you saying or implying that Roosevelt was in cahoots with Japan to have them attack the US? i know there are people who have been told that but I would bet my bottom dollar it is not the truth.
> 
> I will finish this when I get home - from an appointment. You speak it as if you were there and know it to be truth -- I don't believe it -- I lived through the war and read the news both from the War with Japan and with Hitler.


I would also like to add to this but have no time this morning.

Did you ever see that wonderful movie with Raymond Massey as a Nazi travelling through Canada and finally facing Leslie Howard, who gets him in the end. Massey was Canadian, wasn't he? I'll get the title soon - if you haven't seen it, it's worth looking for.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I would also like to add to this but have no time this morning.
> 
> Did you ever see that wonderful movie with Raymond Massey as a Nazi travelling through Canada and finally facing Leslie Howard, who gets him in the end. Massey was Canadian, wasn't he? I'll get the title soon - if you haven't seen it, it's worth looking for.


Is that the 1950s movie about the escaped Nazi prisoner of war. I believe they said at the time he was the only Nazi prisoner of war who escaped. I saw it about 1958.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Did you ever see that wonderful movie with Raymond Massey as a Nazi travelling through Canada and finally facing Leslie Howard, who gets him in the end. Massey was Canadian, wasn't he? I'll get the title soon - if you haven't seen it, it's worth looking for.


Whoever wrote that is an idiot. Massey was one of the good guys, the one who catches the Nazi. Laurence Olivier is also in the cast, and the music is by Vaughan Williams. The movie is _The 49th Parallel_:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/49th_Parallel_(film)

It's available on Youtube:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Hi, Designer--I'm sure Maid meant no offense by commenting that WW2 helped end the Great Depression in the US--and certainly doesn't believe that Roosevelt was in league with Japan.
> 
> I think many Americans (and I'm one of them) feel a fair amount of guilt and chagrin over the sad fact that a war that spelled death for tens of millions was, at the same time, a most profitable venture for our nation. It speaks volumes about the inherent nature of our military/industrial complex, and it's nothing to be proud of.


Actually I wasn't replying to Maid's post - I was replying to the one she was answering. I certainly do realize that it was a profitable time for many of the industrialists- but I also realize that the US through the Marshall Plan rebuilt Europe after the war and I have often wondered what would have happened without your country stepping in when people were starving. It was the beginning of my admiration for your country - I am talking about the average American who helped as we were all nearly bankrupt, Including Canada. That was when I first got interested in your Politics and people. Your country has had a huge effect on mine and even though I haven't always agreed, there is not another country I would prefer to have for a neighbor. I also believe that is reciprocated. I just find Nebraskas statement to be too definite -- It was a time of confusion, and spending, and trying to save lives. I do not believe that all those in your Government were only thinking of making a dollar, maybe some of them, but certainly not all of them. Most people who run for President are from monied families as there is no way that they would be elected without the 'old boy's club and those who are well to do backing themEspecially before and after the war, actually in my opinion until Truman. It is more possible now than up until immediately after the war, in my opinion. I thought that Roosevelt and Churchill were good leaders for the time. After that war when Churchill led Britain through the war, they thanked him by voting him out -- because they were desperate for peace and tranquility. However he was always admired for his actions during the war. Interesting discussion. I am speaking as an outsider and certainly not an expert. I just have read a lot and remember a lot .

'Nebraska' stated definitely that the war was started by American industrialists dealing with Hitler deliberately -- I do not believe that -- I also don't believe that they had anything to do with Japan attacking Pearl Harbour. I certainly realize that lots of people made money from the war and lots were in favor of the US joining the war before they did but I do not and never will believe that they deliberately backed Hitler - Or Japan to Start World War II.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Is that the 1950s movie about the escaped Nazi prisoner of war. I believe they said at the time he was the only Nazi prisoner of war who escaped. I saw it about 1958.


No, this was made in 1941 and was actually meant as propaganda, prob. to push the US into the war. Now I have to find the movie you're talking about. I love Nazi movies.

Good article about the escape at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1355540/Only-German-PoW-escape-Britain-make-home-world-war.html, with good pictures, too.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I would also like to add to this but have no time this morning.
> 
> Did you ever see that wonderful movie with Raymond Massey as a Nazi travelling through Canada and finally facing Leslie Howard, who gets him in the end. Massey was Canadian, wasn't he? I'll get the title soon - if you haven't seen it, it's worth looking for.


Yes Raymond Massey was a Canadian as are about 30% of the well known Hollywood people - always have been. We have some extremely talented people.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think that it makes no diffence what I say. Even if I agreed with you, you'd come up with some reason to attack me! Because we don't see eye to eye on the details, you attack! OK! You can be right! You're right about everything! Now, can I carry on discussion with people who are interested?


So am I suppose to agree with everything you say and if I don't, then I am attacking you. Why can I not voice my opinion about something you have said when I think it is wrong?


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I completely disagree with you. Yes, there were people who wanted war -- but the United States stayed out of the war in Europe even though the British were nearly starving and Hitler was marching through Europe. canada was nearly bankrupted and we sent more ment to fight the Nazis per capita that any other place. We were at the end of our rope -- Then Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. Are you saying or implying that Roosevelt was in cahoots with Japan to have them attack the US? i know there are people who have been told that but I would bet my bottom dollar it is not the truth.
> 
> I will finish this when I get home - from an appointment. You speak it as if you were there and know it to be truth -- I don't believe it -- I lived through the war and read the news both from the War with Japan and with Hitler.


I can't emphasize enough how the US' isolationist policy kept America out of WWII until the attack on Pearl Harbor. After that Roosevelt really had no other choice but to declare war on Japan and also get the US involved in the European theatre of the war. I don't believe for a minute that he was "in cahoots" with Japan.

For Pete's sake, we even had the German-American Bund demonstrating in support of Germany in the late 1930s. Consider our participation in WWI. We were johnny-come-latelies and stayed out of that war for as long as we could. The US would have happily stayed out of WWI if could have done so.

Being a dominion of Britain brought Canada into the war in 1939. Canada suffered much the same as Britain. I am in no way denying Canada's tremendous sacrifices. Addressing that wasn't relevant to what I said. Just because I only remarked about the economic effect on the US of getting into WWII doesn't mean I don't know about other aspects of WWII.

While Roosevelt tried to bring the US out of the Great Depression, and managed to do so to some extent, our involvement in WWII was really the best economic solution to the Depression. When we joined the war, the industries that supply the needs of a country at war gave us a big boost out of the Depression. Americans who remember their history lessons, know effect on the US economy of our involvement in WWII.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Hi, Designer--I'm sure Maid meant no offense by commenting that WW2 helped end the Great Depression in the US--and certainly doesn't believe that Roosevelt was in league with Japan.
> 
> I think many Americans (and I'm one of them) feel a fair amount of guilt and chagrin over the sad fact that a war that spelled death for tens of millions was, at the same time, a most profitable venture for our nation. It speaks volumes about the inherent nature of our military/industrial complex, and it's nothing to be proud of.


Exactly!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And they say the same thing about the left. And it was hypocracy because she was doing the same thing she was criticizing. Not all people on the right are the same, like not all people on the left are the same. Each person deserves to be judged by their own words and actions.


You are correct, not all people on the right are the same. I was actually referring to those on the right who we deal with here. I have never seen a conversation like this on on the threads from the right -- they just agree with each other 0- no one questions -- they are not willing to ever discuss -- They believe everything that 3 or 4 of them say -- they don't questions, ever, some of the things they quote. If Rush or one of the leaders of the right say something it is taken as a fact. I have read different statements from liberals disagreeing with each other .

YOu say that each person deserves to be judged by their own words and actions -- you are correct --

I am saying that about poor and disenfranchised people who are not able to deal completely on their own. You put them in a box as do a lot of those on the right. Individuals are different whether they are on the Right or on the left. I am glad that you overcame so much and I am sorry you had to. I am just saying that we are individuals-- someone else in your situation might not be able to deal so well with the same problems.

one more thing -- I have stated in a previous post that My country as well as the US turned People away who were sent back to Europe and many put in the ovens. I am not in any way saying that there were not people who couldn't care less about what was happening - I just don't believe that all people are the same.

I don't believe that Roosevelt wanted or helped the Nazis or the Japanese start world war #II .

I


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I can't emphasize enough how the US' isolationist policy kept America out of WWII until the attack on Pearl Harbor. After that Roosevelt really had no other choice but to declare war on Japan and also get the US involved in the European theatre of the war. I don't believe for a minute that he was "in cahoots" with Japan.
> 
> For Pete's sake, we even had the German-American Bund demonstrating in support of Germany in the late 1930s. Consider our participation in WWI. We were johnny-come-latelies and stayed out of that war for as long as we could. The US would have happily stayed out of WWI if could have done so.
> 
> ...


Maid- I apologize for not making myself clear-- I was answering the same post you were answering -- not yours - I was agreeing with you. I was answering her statement that the Powers that be in the US deliberately helped hitler and the Japanese start both wars. I do not believe that. Sorry again - I clicked on quote reply and only your post showed up. I should have been more careful.

I realize that you are very well informed, from other posts, (quite possibly better informed than I am about America's place in both wars) as I have previously posted here I was a young woman when the war ended -- Certainly the war effort helped your economy- but your Country, through the Marshall Plan saved Europe and that is a fact -- We were nearly bankrupt and so were the British -- your planes, guns etc. changed the tide of the war. I still think that Britain with the help of Commonwealth forces would have fought to the last person to keep Hitler from winning the British Isles-- but your country came in with your supplies, planes - army etc. You alone didn't win the war but you certainly played a huge part in winning it. Many Americans were taught that America 'won' the war. They helped win the war as the Commonwealth stood alone for many years because the States 
didn't want to go to war-

So her statements don't live up to the facts.

Anyway, I have said my piece -- and I have enjoyed this conversation as I mentioned previously. She accused me of putting all the 'right' in one box. I only put those who post on the other thread in one box because i have never read one word of questioning anything negative or nasty - said on that thread about the President or the Left. They are closed minded and are proud of it. They believe whatever negative their leaders say because they want to. They do not want him to succeed at all - at the cost of dividing the country. that is my opinion, and as a Canadian it worries me -- they have made him a personal enemy. There is not one person on that thread who ever says, hmm, Michele is actually quite a nice person, or The President is doing his best - maybe we shouldn't try so hard to make sure he fails" not once have I seen anyone there disagree with what is led by Fox news and those in the Tea Party. I believe there are some Republicans who are not as close minded , but they are leary about going against the nay sayers who speak loudly and rant and rave.

We here do actually discuss, and sometimes disagree with each other --


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> No, this was made in 1941 and was actually meant as propaganda, prob. to push the US into the war. Now I have to find the movie you're talking about. I love Nazi movies.
> 
> Good article about the escape at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1355540/Only-German-PoW-escape-Britain-make-home-world-war.html, with good pictures, too.


Thanks for the information. I checked out your link and found it very interesting reading. I also found information on the 1941 propaganda movie. I think the 1950 movie had either Hardie Krueger or Kurd Jurgen, not sure of the spelling.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Thanks for the information. I checked out your link and found it very interesting reading. I also found information on the 1941 propaganda movie. I think the 1950 movie had either Hardie Krueger or Kurd Jurgen, not sure of the spelling.


The movie "The One That Got Away" may be what you're talking about: 1957, Hardy Kruger


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Maid- I apologize for not making myself clear-- I was answering the same post you were answering -- not yours - I was agreeing with you. I was answering her statement that the Powers that be in the US deliberately helped hitler and the Japanese start both wars. I do not believe that. Sorry again - I clicked on quote reply and only your post showed up. I should have been more careful.
> 
> I realize that you are very well informed, from other posts, (quite possibly better informed than I am about America's place in both wars) as I have previously posted here I was a young woman when the war ended -- Certainly the war effort helped your economy- but your Country, through the Marshall Plan saved Europe and that is a fact -- We were nearly bankrupt and so were the British -- your planes, guns etc. changed the tide of the war. I still think that Britain with the help of Commonwealth forces would have fought to the last person to keep Hitler from winning the British Isles-- but your country came in with your supplies, planes - army etc. You alone didn't win the war but you certainly played a huge part in winning it. Many Americans were taught that America 'won' the war. They helped win the war as the Commonwealth stood alone for many years because the States
> didn't want to go to war-....


All the "could of, should of"s that can be said of World War 2! With so long a war and so many countries involved it could have gone a hundred different ways. I never get tired of trying to sort it out and imagining the various scenarios.

In my opinion the two biggest forks in the road were:

1) Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.
If this hadn't occurred I'm not sure when or even _if_ the US would have gotten involved. Nothing else--not the Holocaust, not the sight of Hitler using Europe as his own, personal sandbag to bully and knock around, not the hordes of starving refugees trying desperately to get out of the line of fire--was enough to break through America's isolationism.

2) Hitler's decision to invade the Soviet Union.
Truly suicidal. Bloody Joe Stalin was delighted to be Hitler's chum. No, neither side trusted the other (and with good reason, as it turned out), but it was a workable partnership as long as the loot (like Poland) was evenly divided between the two. War between the two countries was perhaps inevitable, but if Hitler hadn't started his march east it might have been postponed ten or fifteen years--long enough for Germany to either subdue England or turn it into a wasteland, to push through Africa, and to gain significant ground in the Middle East.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> The movie "The One That Got Away" may be what you're talking about: 1957, Hardy Kruger


Thank you, that sounds correct. I saw it a long time ago and the memory cells get a little rusty over the years.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Question:

Who are your favorite commentators on the economy and the current financial status of the US and the world?

Mine are Nomi Prins, Richard Wolff, and Robert Reich.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I can't emphasize enough how the US' isolationist policy kept America out of WWII until the attack on Pearl Harbor. After that Roosevelt really had no other choice but to declare war on Japan and also get the US involved in the European theatre of the war. I don't believe for a minute that he was "in cahoots" with Japan.
> 
> For Pete's sake, we even had the German-American Bund demonstrating in support of Germany in the late 1930s. Consider our participation in WWI. We were johnny-come-latelies and stayed out of that war for as long as we could. The US would have happily stayed out of WWI if could have done so.
> 
> ...


Actually the American military build up for WW2 began about a year before Pearl Harbor - Doris Something Kearns claimed this in her book about the Roosevelts. So what does that suggest?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Actually the American military build up for WW2 began about a year before Pearl Harbor - Doris Something Kearns claimed this in her book about the Roosevelts. So what does that suggest?


To me it would suggest that the signs were there - I know they didn't have the communications we have now -- but i am sure they had people in the orient who were keeping an eye on what was happening. I found a newspaper in my Dad's things from Toronto, that underlined an article saying that Japan was building arms and it was thought that they planned on attacking America and that there was a good possibility they would come in through British Columbia -- It was dated before they Attacked Pearl Harbour. So it was thought by some people and printed in papers that 'something' was happening in Japan. The article was written by someone who stated his fears very clearly. I gave the write up to my Uncle so don't have the name of the paper or the exact date but it was at least a few months before Pearly Harbour.- (I believe and American) and caused quite a stir from what I have heard. I believe They were alert on the BC coast for at least a year before they invaded Hawaii.

I am NOT an expert on this and it was many many years ago. I am going from what I remember and a few things that my Dad had which I found when we were cleaning out his things.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

I want to share the lovely communication I had this morning while out watering the garden at my girlfriends home. A little boy was walking down the sidewalk with his grandmother and making silly fun sounds and trying to skip. I flashed a big smile said good morning and as grandma got closer I held up three fingers and pointed to the little boy, she shook her head and held up two fingers then counted off six more to indicate 2 1/2 I said oh two and a half she nodded and said it in Chinese I tried to imitate the words and guess I did okay as she smiled and nodded yes. I motioned with my arm and hand to indicate height and pointed to him and said tall for 2 1/2. She nodded and said daddy and motioned very high above her and me. We both said good by and have a nice day(I think she may have said) in our respective languages and off she and her grandson went on their walk.

Just goes to show we can communicate beyond our own languages.

Peace!


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> I want to share the lovely communication I had this morning while out watering the garden at my girlfriends home. A little boy was walking down the sidewalk with his grandmother and making silly fun sounds and trying to skip. I flashed a big smile said good morning and as grandma got closer I held up three fingers and pointed to the little boy, she shook her head and held up two fingers then counted off six more to indicate 2 1/2 I said oh two and a half she nodded and said it in Chinese I tried to imitate the words and guess I did okay as she smiled and nodded yes. I motioned with my arm and hand to indicate height and pointed to him and said tall for 2 1/2. She nodded and said daddy and motioned very high above her and me. We both said good by and have a nice day(I think she may have said) in our respective languages and off she and her grandson went on their walk.
> 
> Just goes to show we can communicate beyond our own languages.
> 
> Peace!


Yes, we can communicate without saying words. Often all that is needed is a friendly smile. Unfortunately so many people do not try to make an effort to bridge the gap and they are the poorer because of this. A smile makes people feel welcome, it says they are part of the community.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Actually the American military build up for WW2 began about a year before Pearl Harbor - Doris Something Kearns claimed this in her book about the Roosevelts. So what does that suggest?


It suggests to me that the US was positioning itself to be a supplier of materials and weapons to other nations already at war and that we probably would have done business with any of those countries. The end to the Depression and greed would have won out.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Question:
> 
> Who are your favorite commentators on the economy and the current financial status of the US and the world?
> 
> Mine are Nomi Prins, Richard Wolff, and Robert Reich.


Nomi Prins is wonderful. I also like Reich, and Paul Krugman. I think my favorite, though, is Dean Baker, of 
http://www.cepr.net/beat-the-press/


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> I want to share the lovely communication I had this morning while out watering the garden at my girlfriends home. A little boy was walking down the sidewalk with his grandmother and making silly fun sounds and trying to skip. I flashed a big smile said good morning and as grandma got closer I held up three fingers and pointed to the little boy, she shook her head and held up two fingers then counted off six more to indicate 2 1/2 I said oh two and a half she nodded and said it in Chinese I tried to imitate the words and guess I did okay as she smiled and nodded yes. I motioned with my arm and hand to indicate height and pointed to him and said tall for 2 1/2. She nodded and said daddy and motioned very high above her and me. We both said good by and have a nice day(I think she may have said) in our respective languages and off she and her grandson went on their walk.
> 
> Just goes to show we can communicate beyond our own languages.
> 
> Peace!


What a good story, PG. I've had similar things happen, though not as charmingly, but, yes, people share many qualities regardless of language, culture, even height.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> To me it would suggest that the signs were there - I know they didn't have the communications we have now -- but i am sure they had people in the orient who were keeping an eye on what was happening. I found a newspaper in my Dad's things from Toronto, that underlined an article saying that Japan was building arms and it was thought that they planned on attacking America and that there was a good possibility they would come in through British Columbia -- It was dated before they Attacked Pearl Harbour. So it was thought by some people and printed in papers that 'something' was happening in Japan. The article was written by someone who stated his fears very clearly. I gave the write up to my Uncle so don't have the name of the paper or the exact date but it was at least a few months before Pearly Harbour.- (I believe and American) and caused quite a stir from what I have heard. I believe They were alert on the BC coast for at least a year before they invaded Hawaii.
> 
> I am NOT an expert on this and it was many many years ago. I am going from what I remember and a few things that my Dad had which I found when we were cleaning out his things.


I think FDR felt he had to allow some attack (maybe Pearl Harbor) so that the Axis countries would not realize we (that is to say, the British) had figured out how to read their coded messages.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> It suggests to me that the US was positioning itself to be a supplier of materials and weapons to other nations already at war and that we probably would have done business with any of those countries. The end to the Depression and greed would have won out.


That is a good possibility -- but the help was desperately needed in Europe as the British and Commonwealth forces were exhausted, and near the end of their tether. I don't mean they would have given up -- I believe they would have fought and fought, but it did make a huge difference when the US supplies and forces arrived in England so no matter what the motive it certainly arrived at a good time.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Nomi Prins is wonderful. I also like Reich, and Paul Krugman. I think my favorite, though, is Dean Baker, of
> http://www.cepr.net/beat-the-press/


Looked up Dean Baker. He is very practical
why do politicians (dems and repub) not hear the voices of economists regarding the bank bailouts?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> What a good story, PG. I've had similar things happen, though not as charmingly, but, yes, people share many qualities regardless of language, culture, even height.


It was so sweet. The grandmother is often out in the neighborhood when I do my gardening and she is always able to express her appreciation for the garden and I love seeing her as a few years ago she was using a walker, but is now on her own....a bit slow in the walking, but on her own two feet. the neighborhood is very mixed culturally, age, race etc. One of the greatest aspects of San Francisco.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> Looked up Dean Baker. He is very practical
> why do politicians (dems and repub) not hear the voices of economists regarding the bank bailouts?


Because the Banks control the Pols.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

SQM said:


> Because the Banks control the Pols.


We are both so callous, but accurate!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Looked up Dean Baker. He is very practical
> why do politicians (dems and repub) not hear the voices of economists regarding the bank bailouts?


Prob. because they don't want to. Banks donate campaign funds; economists don't.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Maid- I apologize for not making myself clear-- I was answering the same post you were answering -- not yours - I was agreeing with you. I was answering her statement that the Powers that be in the US deliberately helped hitler and the Japanese start both wars. I do not believe that. Sorry again - I clicked on quote reply and only your post showed up. I should have been more careful.
> 
> I realize that you are very well informed, from other posts, (quite possibly better informed than I am about America's place in both wars) as I have previously posted here I was a young woman when the war ended -- Certainly the war effort helped your economy- but your Country, through the Marshall Plan saved Europe and that is a fact -- We were nearly bankrupt and so were the British -- your planes, guns etc. changed the tide of the war. I still think that Britain with the help of Commonwealth forces would have fought to the last person to keep Hitler from winning the British Isles-- but your country came in with your supplies, planes - army etc. You alone didn't win the war but you certainly played a huge part in winning it. Many Americans were taught that America 'won' the war. They helped win the war as the Commonwealth stood alone for many years because the States
> didn't want to go to war-
> ...


Thanks for letting me know who you were talking to. It didn't seem like you were talking to me. No apology needed.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Ooops. Double post.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Count me in. I like your humor.



Poor Purl said:


> Ms. Eve, fools and idiots don't make you grumpy; they make you very funny. I'd like to end up wherever you end up. It would be much more interesting than either heaven or hell.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Glad to have you....and Canada as a true friend.



Designer1234 said:


> Actually I wasn't replying to Maid's post - I was replying to the one she was answering. I certainly do realize that it was a profitable time for many of the industrialists- but I also realize that the US through the Marshall Plan rebuilt Europe after the war and I have often wondered what would have happened without your country stepping in when people were starving. It was the beginning of my admiration for your country - I am talking about the average American who helped as we were all nearly bankrupt, Including Canada. That was when I first got interested in your Politics and people. Your country has had a huge effect on mine and even though I haven't always agreed, there is not another country I would prefer to have for a neighbor. I also believe that is reciprocated. I just find Nebraskas statement to be too definite -- It was a time of confusion, and spending, and trying to save lives. I do not believe that all those in your Government were only thinking of making a dollar, maybe some of them, but certainly not all of them. Most people who run for President are from monied families as there is no way that they would be elected without the 'old boy's club and those who are well to do backing themEspecially before and after the war, actually in my opinion until Truman. It is more possible now than up until immediately after the war, in my opinion. I thought that Roosevelt and Churchill were good leaders for the time. After that war when Churchill led Britain through the war, they thanked him by voting him out -- because they were desperate for peace and tranquility. However he was always admired for his actions during the war. Interesting discussion. I am speaking as an outsider and certainly not an expert. I just have read a lot and remember a lot .
> 
> 'Nebraska' stated definitely that the war was started by American industrialists dealing with Hitler deliberately -- I do not believe that -- I also don't believe that they had anything to do with Japan attacking Pearl Harbour. I certainly realize that lots of people made money from the war and lots were in favor of the US joining the war before they did but I do not and never will believe that they deliberately backed Hitler - Or Japan to Start World War II.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

NJG said:


> So am I suppose to agree with everything you say and if I don't, then I am attacking you. Why can I not voice my opinion about something you have said when I think it is wrong?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Indeed. Peace and goodness to all.



peacegoddess said:


> I want to share the lovely communication I had this morning while out watering the garden at my girlfriends home. A little boy was walking down the sidewalk with his grandmother and making silly fun sounds and trying to skip. I flashed a big smile said good morning and as grandma got closer I held up three fingers and pointed to the little boy, she shook her head and held up two fingers then counted off six more to indicate 2 1/2 I said oh two and a half she nodded and said it in Chinese I tried to imitate the words and guess I did okay as she smiled and nodded yes. I motioned with my arm and hand to indicate height and pointed to him and said tall for 2 1/2. She nodded and said daddy and motioned very high above her and me. We both said good by and have a nice day(I think she may have said) in our respective languages and off she and her grandson went on their walk.
> 
> Just goes to show we can communicate beyond our own languages.
> 
> Peace!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I always enjoy reading John Bogle's books about how the markets work.



Poor Purl said:


> Nomi Prins is wonderful. I also like Reich, and Paul Krugman. I think my favorite, though, is Dean Baker, of
> http://www.cepr.net/beat-the-press/


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The religious right doesn't make the textbooks! Its the liberal left that does that! Education in this country is very liberal.


I think you'll find that the religious right is indeed creeping into textbooks. Most texts are published in Texas, a state not known for liberal anything.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

And imagine all the poor children hearing themselves talked about on a daily basis on the news. All they hear is cuts to food stamps, do you think they might worry about being hungry? Then they have to go to school and be able to concentrate and learn. Then those republican congress men/women pat themselves on the back and continue spewing all their crap. Disgusting. They either have no idea the harm they are doing, or they just don't care.


I vote with "they just don't care."


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Protect me from the things I think I know.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> And imagine all the poor children hearing themselves talked about on a daily basis on the news. All they hear is cuts to food stamps, do you think they might worry about being hungry? Then they have to go to school and be able to concentrate and learn. Then those republican congress men/women pat themselves on the back and continue spewing all their crap. Disgusting. They either have no idea the harm they are doing, or they just don't care.
> 
> I vote with "they just don't care."


It's worse than that. Remember the school in which they took back the lunches from kids whose parents had not yet paid their fees? A Republican ordered that done.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> The following don't seem to agree with you. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/jun/21/how-texas-inflicts-bad-textbooks-on-us/
> 
> http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/culture/are-conservatives-in-texas-rewriting-history/736/ followed by http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/culture/so-goes-texas-so-goes-the-nation/754/
> 
> http://billmoyers.com/content/messing-with-texas-textbooks/


I've been real busy with my gardening. Yesterday my soil was dry enough to till and today is going to be 92 degrees, rain tomorrrow. So I've got more to get done this morning, but I'll work on this while I can. First of all, let me say you guys post links to very long articles! I thought the articles were very biased. They had one message only and didn't address both sides of the issue, much like propaganda. As to the subject, none of the schools my kids were in had textbooks like these. Ours always taught evolution as fact and global warming was all over all of the books. Bah! I think Texas should be able to have any books they want. Other books ARE available (I know because we had them) and any school district that doesn't want to use them, doesn't have to! Perhaps, they were discounted because of mass production?

Now, I'll address the two main issues the writer's had with Texas's textbooks. First; suggesting creationism as an alternative to evolution. Aside from people's strongly held beliefs, there is no more proof for evolution than there is for creation. I know that many or even most scientists accept evolution as fact but it has never been more than a theory! They talk about fossils etc...but there has never been any evidence for cross species evolution. All living things evolve. As food is more plentiful, humans become larger. Viruses and bacteria evolve as antibiotics try to kill them. Animals develop warmer coats when temperatures drop. But in order for the theory of evolution to be correct, you would have to see where one species changed into another. And its never happened! There has never been one shred of evidence to show that we all started out as the same thing and evolved into other things. Next point to note; the human genome project has spread even more light on the subject. Scientists have discovered the the Cro Magnons and Neanderthals were not human. They were of a different species. We didn't evolve from them because they were not human. Next, stop and think, if we are just a bunch of random matter, then why are each of us so different? How were we given the ability to think and create? Where did that come from? Intellegent design makes a lot more sense even if you dont believe in GOD. Some criticize the bible but no one can discount the phophecies that have come true and are coming true as we speak! There were and are those who are intent on removing GOD from our country and the world. They work for satan. Too many refuse to believe and others believe without thinking! The bible told us this would happen and it is!

Next; global warming! Its a bunch of hooey! Well, what they say is a bunch of hooey! For years they've tried to scare us with global warming. One big problem, the earth has been cooling for over sixteen years! When that made the news (alternative news) they changed it to climate change. Well OK. I believe there's been climate change. I just don't believe its caused by cows farting and too many people breathing! Climates are changing because the governments of the world discovered how to control and make weather! It started in the sixties as weather warfare! Now they call it geo engineering. You wanna know what they're doing? LOOK UP! Hardly a day goes by that they're not spraying our skies with a chemical soup. When people started noticing, they said the people were crazy conspiracy theorists. They said it was only contrails. But look at a contrail. It disapates as the plane moves forward. Chem trails don't! They spread out and turn the sky white. Now, they don't even deny it. They speak openly about it but its never talked about on the news. They say they're spraying to protect us from global warming but the spraying is destroying the ozone layer that protects us from the sun's radiation. They spray aluminum and other chemicals into the sky and them hit them with a scalar beam. Read about HAARP! Using HAARP, they can and do create any kind of weather they want, even earthquakes. They can create hurricanes and floods and move the ones they didn't create. They can make and move tornados. You wanna know why we've been having such unnatural weather lately? Because it IS unnatural! The big money people bet on the weather through derivatives. Billions are made! What do you want to bet, they have inside information on what the weather will be. Also, important to note, they say we need to have carbon taxes and carbon credits to save the world. Its a scheme to steal more money from US! Carbon taxes and credits will make heating your home impossible to afford. Oh, but then you can move into an environmentally friendly Agenda 21 apartment. You know, work and live all in the same building. There won't be any transportation because no one will be able to afford gas for a car. No problem! Back to the Agenda 21 apartment. You don't need to go anywhere! Everything all in one place! Forget buying yarn or anything else! Carbon credits will make everything too expensive! Agenda 21 is a treaty that was signed during the Clinton administration. Read about it. A woman named Rosa Koire had written a lot about it. You'll like her! She's a lesbian democrat! She's right! I've spent thousands of hours studying this crap. The kicker was when I found a congressional bill to fund them trails and scalar technology. Its real! Find out for yourself!!!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I can't exactly show you, but I know that my father was helped by it, and therefore his family. We also lived in public housing for 15 years, until my parents had saved enough to move to a better apartment. And my parents were not lazy, or dependent on handouts. My father worked every day, well or sick, because that's what people do. He was happy to have work, but was equally happy when he became eligible for Social Security and could quit his exhausting blue-collar factory job.


Ive never said that we SHOULDN'T have a minimum wage. Only that it doesn't help minimum wage workers. Because minimum wage workers are still struggling is proof in and of itself. In my opinion, your father got ahead because he worked hard. As you said, he went above and beyond by even working when he was sick. He also saved to better your lives. Where do you think you'd have been if he hadnt? I think you make my point!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Who are you discussing?


Follow along!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Nope. I have a masters in Marxist Theory and that is how I have been trained to see the world. Plus that was my dad's outlook so it all makes sense and is easy for me. But seeing underneath is not always fun.


Do you believe Marxism is beneficial to mankind? I'm glad you're willing to look below the surface. So many are afraid to.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> There is proof in the form of ancient artifacts that can be carbon dated to place them specifically in a period of history.
> This makes it science rather than 'because someone says so.'


Show me proof!!! Just because someone says it, doesn't make it so!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> But don't forget that WWII wiped out that pesky Great Depression. Lots of jobs for lots of people in the war industry...


Yup! But WHO made all the money?!?


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

maysmom said:


> I think you'll find that the religious right is indeed creeping into textbooks. Most texts are published in Texas, a state not known for liberal anything.


maysmom
you are correct, remove Huckleberry Finn and insert Holy Creatures.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Show me proof!!! Just because someone says it, doesn't make it so!


Knitter from Nebraska
Science has been pretty accurate all along.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I completely disagree with you. Yes, there were people who wanted war -- but the United States stayed out of the war in Europe even though the British were nearly starving and Hitler was marching through Europe. canada was nearly bankrupted and we sent more ment to fight the Nazis per capita that any other place. We were at the end of our rope -- Then Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. Are you saying or implying that Roosevelt was in cahoots with Japan to have them attack the US? i know there are people who have been told that but I would bet my bottom dollar it is not the truth.
> 
> I will finish this when I get home - from an appointment. You speak it as if you were there and know it to be truth -- I don't believe it -- I lived through the war and read the news both from the War with Japan and with Hitler.


Read about it! Papers have been declassified. We egged Japan on. We made it impossible for them to conduct international trade. They couldn't meet their needs. Then we discovered a Japanese spy, monitored him and fed him false information designed to get Japan to attack us. Long story short!


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Ive never said that we SHOULDN'T have a minimum wage. Only that it doesn't help minimum wage workers. Because minimum wage workers are still struggling is proof in and of itself. In my opinion, your father got ahead because he worked hard. As you said, he went above and beyond by even working when he was sick. He also saved to better your lives. Where do you think you'd have been if he hadnt? I think you make my point!


Knitter from Nebraska
you are accusing people not to work hard these days, shame on you. Father's of the past worked themselves to an early death, is that what you want to happen again? Saving? Today? Only the Rich can afford to do that not Joe Blow or Jane Doe.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Read about it! Papers have been declassified. We egged Japan on. We made it impossible for them to conduct international trade. They couldn't meet their needs. Then we discovered a Japanese spy, monitored him and fed him false information designed to get Japan to attack us. Long story short!


Knitter from Nebraska
what a story. Well there have to be Fairy Tales for Adults to make it through Life I guess. Some folks always hunger for conspiracies.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> No required reading lists
> 
> Do the English language arts standards include a required reading list?
> No. The Common Core State Standards include sample texts that demonstrate the level of text complexity appropriate for the grade level and compatible with the learning demands set out in the standards. The exemplars of high-quality texts at each grade level provide a rich set of possibilities. This ensures teachers have the flexibility to make their own decisions about what texts to use, while providing an excellent reference point when selecting their texts.


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/05/05/california-school-district-gives-students-jaw-dropping-holocaust-assignment-in-attempt-to-meet-common-core-standards/

Even if you don't like the source, note that the Anti Defamation League is getting involved.

Oh, I guess that want about the porn. Here's one.http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2014/02/21/common-core-pornography/


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Ah yes, Al, but not as tintilating as soft porn offered to students as part of Common Core State Standards. No word of discretion at the local level. Sigh.


SOFT porn?!? Look again!


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Show me proof!!! Just because someone says it, doesn't make it so!


The "proof" you want is in the carbon dating that Damemary mentioned. Check it out. Carbon dating isn't a matter of "just because someone says it, doesn't make it so." It's hard science.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Actually I wasn't replying to Maid's post - I was replying to the one she was answering. I certainly do realize that it was a profitable time for many of the industrialists- but I also realize that the US through the Marshall Plan rebuilt Europe after the war and I have often wondered what would have happened without your country stepping in when people were starving. It was the beginning of my admiration for your country - I am talking about the average American who helped as we were all nearly bankrupt, Including Canada. That was when I first got interested in your Politics and people. Your country has had a huge effect on mine and even though I haven't always agreed, there is not another country I would prefer to have for a neighbor. I also believe that is reciprocated. I just find Nebraskas statement to be too definite -- It was a time of confusion, and spending, and trying to save lives. I do not believe that all those in your Government were only thinking of making a dollar, maybe some of them, but certainly not all of them. Most people who run for President are from monied families as there is no way that they would be elected without the 'old boy's club and those who are well to do backing themEspecially before and after the war, actually in my opinion until Truman. It is more possible now than up until immediately after the war, in my opinion. I thought that Roosevelt and Churchill were good leaders for the time. After that war when Churchill led Britain through the war, they thanked him by voting him out -- because they were desperate for peace and tranquility. However he was always admired for his actions during the war. Interesting discussion. I am speaking as an outsider and certainly not an expert. I just have read a lot and remember a lot .
> 
> 'Nebraska' stated definitely that the war was started by American industrialists dealing with Hitler deliberately -- I do not believe that -- I also don't believe that they had anything to do with Japan attacking Pearl Harbour. I certainly realize that lots of people made money from the war and lots were in favor of the US joining the war before they did but I do not and never will believe that they deliberately backed Hitler - Or Japan to Start World War II.


Have you ever wondered what would have happened if there'd been no war at all?

Interesting point about US presidents, all but one come from the same bloodline. Not making a point! Just an interesting observation I thought of when I read your post.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2183858/All-presidents-bar-directly-descended-medieval-English-king.html


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/05/05/california-school-district-gives-students-jaw-dropping-holocaust-assignment-in-attempt-to-meet-common-core-standards/
> 
> Even if you don't like the source, note that the Anti Defamation League is getting involved.
> 
> Oh, I guess that want about the porn. Here's one.http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2014/02/21/common-core-pornography/


I checked your links, Nebraska, and while I'm not familiar with _Black Swan Green_ or _Dreaming In Cuban_, I have read (and studied) _The Bluest Eye_ and can attest to its quality. Yes, it does deal with the subjects of child molestation, abuse, and pre-teen pregnancy, but it does so in a sensitive and thought-provoking way. Toni Morrison is very talented writer--you (and others) might benefit from reading her works before passing judgement on them.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> You are correct, not all people on the right are the same. I was actually referring to those on the right who we deal with here. I have never seen a conversation like this on on the threads from the right -- they just agree with each other 0- no one questions -- they are not willing to ever discuss -- They believe everything that 3 or 4 of them say -- they don't questions, ever, some of the things they quote. If Rush or one of the leaders of the right say something it is taken as a fact. I have read different statements from liberals disagreeing with each other .
> 
> Roosevelt helped the globalists. Call them what you want, globalists, bankers, Illuminati, the elite, the big money people, those with the real power, they're all the same. They pull the strings behind the scenes.
> 
> ...


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Gotta go! I'll pop in later!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/05/05/california-school-district-gives-students-jaw-dropping-holocaust-assignment-in-attempt-to-meet-common-core-standards/
> 
> Even if you don't like the source, note that the Anti Defamation League is getting involved.
> 
> Oh, I guess that want about the porn. Here's one.http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2014/02/21/common-core-pornography/


------------------
What did you post this last link for? are you agreeing with what is said about porn in the schools? YOu have lost me.

What exactly are you trying to say?? I am not interested in this type of post - and so I doubt I will read any more of your posts. I have been reading what you write for 3 or 4 days and still have not figured out what your real feelings about anything are , or what your agenda is.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Neb - you are wrong on so many counts in your lengthy post. First, neanderthal genes have been found in our species which proves they were just a variant of us. There has always been climate change but this time it is believed that humans are accelerating the rate. God can never be used as the cause since there is no substantial proof of her existence. God requires faith, science requires proof. As a textbook writer, I always think of Texas as my standard for what to include - since it is a quite influential market, albeit a very conservative one. The best part of Marx's Capital was his critique of Capitalism. The second part - the rise of the proletariat state did not interest me. My failing as a Marxist came about because I could not embrace the working class. I will not be responding to your religious diatribes in the future. They make no sense and no minds are going to be changed here. Just remember that throughout human history, gods have come and gone. Today's religion, tomorrow's Myths. I still like you, tho.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska
Just take a deep breath and try to figure out what you want to say. You keep losing me. Perhaps that is good.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Protect me from the things I think I know.


I just reread this and realized I had skipped the "I think" the first time around.

Very clever.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I've been real busy with my gardening. Yesterday my soil was dry enough to till and today is going to be 92 degrees, rain tomorrrow. <snip>


What is this "cross species evolution" you keep referring to? It's certainly not what is taught in science classes.

And doesn't the fact that the temperature in early May is 92 degrees tell you something? Nebraska is not on the equator, is it? Seriously, that fact says nothing about global climate change, but only about this week's weather in Nebraska. But everyone except you and the two guys you read knows climate change is happening, will endanger us all, and is caused by human actions that could be stopped or mitigated if only the fossil-fuel billionaires didn't fight it.

The rest of your message is not as well-written as the ones I sent you to, and I couldn't finish reading it.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

NJG said:


> So am I suppose to agree with everything you say and if I don't, then I am attacking you. Why can I not voice my opinion about something you have said when I think it is wrong?


I expressed my opinion. You expressed yours. I countered, you countered. How long to you want to beleaguer the same thing? If we get stuck on the same subject, we don't move forward in discussion!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I can't emphasize enough how the US' isolationist policy kept America out of WWII until the attack on Pearl Harbor. After that Roosevelt really had no other choice but to declare war on Japan and also get the US involved in the European theatre of the war. I don't believe for a minute that he was "in cahoots" with Japan.
> 
> For Pete's sake, we even had the German-American Bund demonstrating in support of Germany in the late 1930s. Consider our participation in WWI. We were johnny-come-latelies and stayed out of that war for as long as we could. The US would have happily stayed out of WWI if could have done so.
> 
> ...


Isolationist policy? More like the PEOPLE didn't want their young men killed in a war that wasn't theirs. I don't know how you can say the US is isolationist. We're involved in everybody's wars even when we shouldn't be!


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It's worse than that. Remember the school in which they took back the lunches from kids whose parents had not yet paid their fees? A Republican ordered that done.


Why am I not surprised??

:thumbdown: :roll:


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> "Hard Science" no, only an educated guess. It has been proved wrong. (I don't have a website) They are only guessing at the half-life of carbon. What if their guess is wrong? What was the original? Do you have answers for these?


If you can't provide a source, then, you have no case.

:!:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> You are correct, not all people on the right are the same. I was actually referring to those on the right who we deal with here. I have never seen a conversation like this on on the threads from the right -- they just agree with each other 0- no one questions -- they are not willing to ever discuss -- They believe everything that 3 or 4 of them say -- they don't questions, ever, some of the things they quote. If Rush or one of the leaders of the right say something it is taken as a fact. I have read different statements from liberals disagreeing with each other .
> 
> YOu say that each person deserves to be judged by their own words and actions -- you are correct --
> 
> ...


I do not put people in a box. I never said that all poor people were lazy, only that some are. I know that is true! I actually know of several examples! I SAID that if people wanted to get ahead, through hard work they could do that (before the jobs were taken away). I was corrected on disabled people and I admitted I should have omitted them. Poor Pearl's statement about her father is proof of this! Even poor people in the projects, with hard work and determination can get themselves up and out!

You talk about the threads on the right and how they all agree with each other, well when one of us on the right is not here or on one of the other liberal threads, it's the same way! Its only because I'm here, shaking things up, that discussion is taking place! When everyone agrees with each other, there is NO real discussion. And let me tell you, liberals agree with each other too!

American bankers helped the Nazis and pressured Roosevelt to enter the war. The American people were against it so Pearl Harbor was instigated!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Do you know what carbon dating is? Do you know what is the half life of carbon? My source is my college degree. I'm sure you do not have a copy of my college Chemistry text book to check.


When does your chemistry text date from? It probably needs carbon dating to determine.

A whole lot of science has been done since that date.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Maid- I apologize for not making myself clear-- I was answering the same post you were answering -- not yours - I was agreeing with you. I was answering her statement that the Powers that be in the US deliberately helped hitler and the Japanese start both wars. I do not believe that. Sorry again - I clicked on quote reply and only your post showed up. I should have been more careful.
> 
> I realize that you are very well informed, from other posts, (quite possibly better informed than I am about America's place in both wars) as I have previously posted here I was a young woman when the war ended -- Certainly the war effort helped your economy- but your Country, through the Marshall Plan saved Europe and that is a fact -- We were nearly bankrupt and so were the British -- your planes, guns etc. changed the tide of the war. I still think that Britain with the help of Commonwealth forces would have fought to the last person to keep Hitler from winning the British Isles-- but your country came in with your supplies, planes - army etc. You alone didn't win the war but you certainly played a huge part in winning it. Many Americans were taught that America 'won' the war. They helped win the war as the Commonwealth stood alone for many years because the States
> didn't want to go to war-
> ...


Perhaps if you did some research yourself, you would understand who is truly informed. People are like sheep! They are easily led and manipulated. They tell you what happened and what to think and you hold on to it because it makes you feel good.

Yes, we helped rebuild Europe but we also made them indebted to the criminal banking system that we have here. We indebted ourselves and we indebted them. They're doing the same thing in the Ukraine! Manipulation! The IMF says they will give and loan them money if they turn over their banking system to them. The IMF also says, the money is contingent on the Ukraine agreeing to go to war with Russia.. I'm not sure our help is worth it! They'll end up like the rest of us, indebted for life!

And finally, the liberals on the liberal threads are just as close minded as the conservatives on the conservative thread. Its just that you agree with them that makes you think they are open minded. If you didn't think that, you would have to admit to yourself that you are close minded!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Actually the American military build up for WW2 began about a year before Pearl Harbor - Doris Something Kearns claimed this in her book about the Roosevelts. So what does that suggest?


It suggests that they knew and were planning all along! Nothing happens by accident. It is all planned out well in advance.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

"People are like sheep! They are easily led and manipulated."

Is that why Jesus is portrayed as a shepherd and David called god his shepherd. Feh on religions and just for the reasons that Nebraska stated.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> To me it would suggest that the signs were there - I know they didn't have the communications we have now -- but i am sure they had people in the orient who were keeping an eye on what was happening. I found a newspaper in my Dad's things from Toronto, that underlined an article saying that Japan was building arms and it was thought that they planned on attacking America and that there was a good possibility they would come in through British Columbia -- It was dated before they Attacked Pearl Harbour. So it was thought by some people and printed in papers that 'something' was happening in Japan. The article was written by someone who stated his fears very clearly. I gave the write up to my Uncle so don't have the name of the paper or the exact date but it was at least a few months before Pearly Harbour.- (I believe and American) and caused quite a stir from what I have heard. I believe They were alert on the BC coast for at least a year before they invaded Hawaii.
> 
> I am NOT an expert on this and it was many many years ago. I am going from what I remember and a few things that my Dad had which I found when we were cleaning out his things.


If anyone wants to learn more about Pearl Harbor, here is a link to one article. There are many, many more. Declassified material has been studied by many, and give quite a different picture.http://www.rense.com/general10/consp.htm


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Nomi Prins is wonderful. I also like Reich, and Paul Krugman. I think my favorite, though, is Dean Baker, of
> http://www.cepr.net/beat-the-press/


I read a few of the articles. I especially liked the second one.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Because the Banks control the Pols.


YUP!!!!!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Protect me from the things I think I know.


YAY! We finally agree on something!!!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Perhaps if you did some research yourself, you would understand who is truly informed. People are like sheep! They are easily led and manipulated. They tell you what happened and what to think and you hold on to it because it makes you feel good.
> 
> Yes, we helped rebuild Europe but we also made them indebted to the criminal banking system that we have here. We indebted ourselves and we indebted them. They're doing the same thing in the Ukraine! Manipulation! The IMF says they will give and loan them money if they turn over their banking system to them. The IMF also says, the money is contingent on the Ukraine agreeing to go to war with Russia.. I'm not sure our help is worth it! They'll end up like the rest of us, indebted for life!
> 
> And finally, the liberals on the liberal threads are just as close minded as the conservatives on the conservative thread. Its just that you agree with them that makes you think they are open minded. If you didn't think that, you would have to admit to yourself that you are close minded!


----------
I think the thing that irritates me the most about your all knowing posts is sentences like the first one in the above post. You act so condescending, and I for one don't care for it.

YOUR posts are just too judgmental and always right -- You play both sides against the middle from what I can see - and you are always the expert on most things - When people try to talk to you about your ideas you attack.

I think you are very bright - and have done a lot of reading -- yet you imply that because some of us question your views, that we are uninformed and you lecture us -- I have been reading and learning and studying my whole life -- so have a lot of others on this thread -- you talk down to us -- When I say I disagree, you make a remark like the one I have highlighted.

I stated that I have never seen a conversation on the right threads where anyone has questioned any of the things stated there -- That doesn't mean there are not some very bright people or that they don't believe what they say. I just say that it is not a place where people express anything different than the main subject, which is that Obama is dreadful, a fool, etc. etc. ad infinitum, that all Liberal are fools and trying to spoil the country, that Michelle Obama is a dumb, 'sl-t ( which I have seen stated on their thread twice). I don't see discussion - I see blind agreement on everything. We have basic differences of opinion -- which will never meet - women's right to choose is one of them. That is what people are about -- differences of opinion. I do not 
begrudge their opinions - but I refuse to be treated like dirt because I have a different opinion and have reached that opinion after life experiences and living for 80 plus years.

There is no doubt that both sides of this discussion on the Political threads have dug in about their own opinions. I believe it is because of the nastiness - and that there are people on both sides who once in awhile agree with at least a small amount of opinions from the other side.

We are all reasonably bright -- however if someone from one side or the other agrees - they feel they are 
betraying their side.

That, to me is a shame. You are very outspoken and are very definite in your opinions. However you don't like anyone disagreeing with you in any way. Therefore you are really not interested in 'discussion' you are interested in making sure that everyone KNOWS you are right. Big difference.

YOu have posted some well thought out ideas -- which to me are ideas, but they are not necessarily facts in my opinion. I am not speaking for anyone else on this thread. I am speaking for myself and I disagree with at least 50-60% of what you state as fact.

I have been around a long time -- I don't look up links to prove my point -- I have developed my own opinions from life experiences, reading and being interested in Both American and Canadian political information. I express my opinions and i am quite sure that people on this thread don't alway agree with me. that is fine - but they do not throw insulting remarks back- if they don't agree they give me the reasons and sometimes I see their point .

We try to respect each other's opinions. The people on the right do too I guess, I am just saying that on any threads I have read here - there is absolutely no discussion where anyone has ideas different than the group. That to me is the difference between these threads. *That is my opinion * I would love to see and would respect the threads on the right a lot more if once in a long while someone would say, wait -- what do you think about this - maybe we should look at this again, or I have to admit I don't feel that way --- that does happen here - I have never seen it happen there.

I don't intend to get into it with you. I have expressed my opinion, and I am sure you will have lots to say as you don't like it when your statements are not taken as fact.

Soo, I won't bother reading your links and you needn't worry about my feelings being hurt if you feel it necessary to make nasty comments like above - I don't really care whether you think I am knowledgable or not.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> Science has been pretty accurate all along.


Show me the proof! Don't tell me what they say!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> what a story. Well there have to be Fairy Tales for Adults to make it through Life I guess. Some folks always hunger for conspiracies.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: I agree, Huck


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> you are accusing people not to work hard these days, shame on you. Father's of the past worked themselves to an early death, is that what you want to happen again? Saving? Today? Only the Rich can afford to do that not Joe Blow or Jane Doe.


I personally KNOW plenty of lazy poor people! Let me tell you about a member of my extended family (brother of my dil). Lazy man! Started his young adult life by living off of student loans but didn't go to class. Racked up credit card bills he didn't pay, then declared bankruptcy. He brags about this! Then, his sister (not my dil) has three kids she didn't take care of so the state placed them with him and his wife. They also double dipped by claiming that his mother babysat them on weekdays. She was paid and gave that money to him. His wife went to school on grants. Neither of them took care of these children. Their house was filthy, with dirty diapers all over and he would wipe his boogers all over the walls. My dil said junk was a foot deep on the floors. Child protective services were called, the children were removed until they cleaned the place up. They just threw everything away, including the children's toys so that they wouldn't have to keep picking them up. They got the children back. When his wife finished school, she taught for one year and then quit. They lived off of these children! Then they started to see his sister (and my son) working hard and getting ahead. A nice new house etc... So he decided that perhaps they could have more too. He started out by doing computer work for a Realtor and decided he actually liked to work. Eventually he and his wive got their real estate licensee. He works full time and she, part time. Now I've given you, TWO examples of lazy people I know who have lived off of welfare. So I know that they exist!

Oh! By the way, Poor Pearl mentioned her father retiring and collecting social security. So it didn't send him to an early death! As the old saying goes: hard work never killed anybody. At least that's what people who work hard, say!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> The "proof" you want is in the carbon dating that Damemary mentioned. Check it out. Carbon dating isn't a matter of "just because someone says it, doesn't make it so." It's hard science.


Prove it! Show me the evidence of cross species evolution! If you think its there, find it! No carbon dating has ever found anything to prove cross species evolution!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Nebraska - Lazy seems to be the least of your family's issues. I have a bunch of other adjectives to describe them - loathsome being the kindest.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I checked your links, Nebraska, and while I'm not familiar with _Black Swan Green_ or _Dreaming In Cuban_, I have read (and studied) _The Bluest Eye_ and can attest to its quality. Yes, it does deal with the subjects of child molestation, abuse, and pre-teen pregnancy, but it does so in a sensitive and thought-provoking way. Toni Morrison is very talented writer--you (and others) might benefit from reading her works before passing judgement on them.


I have read some Toni Morrison's books! They are NOT appropriate for children!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> ------------------
> What did you post this last link for? are you agreeing with what is said about porn in the schools? YOu have lost me.
> 
> What exactly are you trying to say?? I am not interested in this type of post - and so I doubt I will read any more of your posts. I have been reading what you write for 3 or 4 days and still have not figured out what your real feelings about anything are , or what your agenda is.


If you'd been following, our discussion has ranged from common core currently being taught, to others saying that textbooks are too conservative. My point is that they are not conservative. I was pointing out that they are currently putting pornographic novels on the suggested reading lists for children in our schools. THAT is NOT conservative! That's the point I was making and I don't really care if you read my posts or not. I'm not very fond of yours, either. My agenda as you call it, is to inform and spark discussion!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I have read some Toni Morrison's books! They are NOT appropriate for children!


Obviously a lot of books aren't suitable for young children--but _The Bluest Eye_ is on the list for grades 9-12. Many high schoolers could probably appreciate and benefit from this novel but, as always, schools can opt out if they feel it isn't suitable.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I personally KNOW plenty of lazy poor people! Let me tell you about a member of my extended family (brother of my dil). Lazy man! Started his young adult life by living off of student loans but didn't go to class. Racked up credit card bills he didn't pay, then declared bankruptcy. He brags about this! Then, his sister (not my dil) has three kids she didn't take care of so the state placed them with him and his wife. They also double dipped by claiming that his mother babysat them on weekdays. She was paid and gave that money to him. His wife went to school on grants. Neither of them took care of these children. Their house was filthy, with dirty diapers all over and he would wipe his boogers all over the walls. My dil said junk was a foot deep on the floors. Child protective services were called, the children were removed until they cleaned the place up. They just threw everything away, including the children's toys so that they wouldn't have to keep picking them up. They got the children back. When his wife finished school, she taught for one year and then quit. They lived off of these children! Then they started to see his sister (and my son) working hard and getting ahead. A nice new house etc... So he decided that perhaps they could have more too. He started out by doing computer work for a Realtor and decided he actually liked to work. Eventually he and his wive got their real estate licensee. He works full time and she, part time. Now I've given you, TWO examples of lazy people I know who have lived off of welfare. So I know that they exist!
> 
> Oh! By the way, Poor Pearl mentioned her father retiring and collecting social security. So it didn't send him to an early death! As the old saying goes: hard work never killed anybody. At least that's what people who work hard, say!


One swallow does not spring make. Yes you have given an example of some of your extended family members but this does not hold true for all society. I warrant that there are many more positive examples than your negative example. Also ' As the old saying goes: hard work never killed anybody.' Tell that to the miners who toiled hard down the pit all their lives only to die just as they reached retirement age. Tell that to the poor of this world who work themselves into an early grave. Hard work over a lifetime takes its toll on the body, causing numerous aches and pains in the retirement age. I have found that the people who say ' hard work never killed anybody.' are generally people who work in the 'soft' industries, sitting at a desk, selling items. Tiring work, yes, but not physically demanding the way really hard work is.

I find your comments extremely demeaning to the poor and less fortunate of this world, people who only have their labour to offer, who earn their daily bread by the sweat of their brow. Stop being so damming of people who are not as intellectually inclined as you are, people who are less able to raise their station in life.

Remember the old saying 'the meek shall inherit the earth'. Not the greedy, not the intellectual, not the rich, not even the 'financially comfortable', but the meek.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> One swallow does not spring make. Yes you have given an example of some of your extended family members but this does not hold true for all society. I warrant that there are many more positive examples than your negative example. Also ' As the old saying goes: hard work never killed anybody.' Tell that to the miners who toiled hard down the pit all their lives only to die just as they reached retirement age. Tell that to the poor of this world who work themselves into an early grave. Hard work over a lifetime takes its toll on the body, causing numerous aches and pains in the retirement age. I have found that the people who say ' hard work never killed anybody.' are generally people who work in the 'soft' industries, sitting at a desk, selling items. Tiring work, yes, but not physically demanding the way really hard work is.
> 
> I find your comments extremely demeaning to the poor and less fortunate of this world, people who only have their labour to offer, who earn their daily bread by the sweat of their brow. Stop being so damming of people who are not as intellectually inclined as you are, people who are less able to raise their station in life.
> 
> Remember the old saying 'the meek shall inherit the earth'. Not the greedy, not the intellectual, not the rich, not even the 'financially comfortable', but the meek.


Very well put, Evie. :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Neb - you are wrong on so many counts in your lengthy post. First, neanderthal genes have been found in our species which proves they were just a variant of us. There has always been climate change but this time it is believed that humans are accelerating the rate. God can never be used as the cause since there is no substantial proof of her existence. God requires faith, science requires proof. As a textbook writer, I always think of Texas as my standard for what to include - since it is a quite influential market, albeit a very conservative one. The best part of Marx's Capital was his critique of Capitalism. The second part - the rise of the proletariat state did not interest me. My failing as a Marxist came about because I could not embrace the working class. I will not be responding to your religious diatribes in the future. They make no sense and no minds are going to be changed here. Just remember that throughout human history, gods have come and gone. Today's religion, tomorrow's Myths. I still like you, tho.


You say, "there has always been climate change but this time it is believed that humans are accelerating the rate". Key word her is " believe"! I NEVER said GOD was the cause! I SAID man was the cause! Instead of judging denying what I said, read about it! There is MUCH evidence for weather modification! But to simply deny and accuse without looking at it is wrong!

Mine was not a religious diatribe! I barely mentioned GOD! Why are you so defensive? The theory of evolution requires faith too! No one has ever proven it! That's why they call it a theory! Never has anyone found a shred of evidence for cross species evolution. For the theory of evolution to be considered fact, there would have to be evidence of cross species evolution. Find it! You can't!

It quite peeves me that you say you will not respond to my religious diatribes any longer. When have I ever posted a religious diatribe? Diatribes, yes! Religious, no. I listen to all of you say there is no GOD. I don't insult you! I don't tell you, you are going to hell! I try my best to treat you with respect! Will you (the collective you) not do the same?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> What is this "cross species evolution" you keep referring to? It's certainly not what is taught in science classes.
> 
> And doesn't the fact that the temperature in early May is 92 degrees tell you something? Nebraska is not on the equator, is it? Seriously, that fact says nothing about global climate change, but only about this week's weather in Nebraska. But everyone except you and the two guys you read knows climate change is happening, will endanger us all, and is caused by human actions that could be stopped or mitigated if only the fossil-fuel billionaires didn't fight it.
> 
> The rest of your message is not as well-written as the ones I sent you to, and I couldn't finish reading it.


Jeez! Do I have to do all the work for you? Cross species evolution originated in Darwin's book "The Origin of Species". In his book, he postulated that all species originate from one common ancestor. Neither carbon dating nor fossils have supported this idea. There has never been any evidence to support cross species evolution, thus negating the entire theory! And you're right! It's not taught in science class!

Now, chem trails and weather modification; here is a link to Congressional bill 2977. Look at section 7, B ii. It lists chem trails as an exotic weapon system. So I've given you a government source to prove their existence. Now go out and read about them. There are tons and tons of sources online. But one I recommend for beginners is a video called "What in the World are They Spraying". And YES, climate change IS happening, we just disagree on its source!

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/hr2977.html


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

maysmom said:


> If you can't provide a source, then, you have no case.
> 
> :!:


I keep saying the same thing to everybody who says evolution is fact! Sheez!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> "People are like sheep! They are easily led and manipulated."
> 
> Is that why Jesus is portrayed as a shepherd and David called god his shepherd. Feh on religions and just for the reasons that Nebraska stated.


Now YOU brought up religion! Why is it ok to poke a stick at me? Do you want to talk religion, or not?!? You SAID, you didn't! So, which is it?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I am not using religion as an explanation for how nature works. That is my objection.

"Now YOU brought up religion! Why is it ok to poke a stick at me? Do you want to talk religion, or not?!? You SAID, you didn't! So, which is it?"


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Jeez! Do I have to do all the work for you? Cross species evolution originated in Darwin's book "The Origin of Species". In his book, he postulated that all species originate from one common ancestor. Neither carbon dating nor fossils have supported this idea. There has never been any evidence to support cross species evolution, thus negating the entire theory! And you're right! It's not taught in science class!
> 
> Now, chem trails and weather modification; here is a link to Congressional bill 2977. Look at section 7, B ii. It lists chem trails as an exotic weapon system. So I've given you a government source to prove their existence. Now go out and read about them. There are tons and tons of sources online. But one I recommend for beginners is a video called "What in the World are They Spraying". And YES, climate change IS happening, we just disagree on its source!
> 
> http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/hr2977.html


Thank you for all of those assignments, which I don't expect to be doing. In fact, thank you for your supercilious attitude, which has just proved to me that you're not worth paying attention to.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> One swallow does not spring make. Yes you have given an example of some of your extended family members but this does not hold true for all society. I warrant that there are many more positive examples than your negative example. Also ' As the old saying goes: hard work never killed anybody.' Tell that to the miners who toiled hard down the pit all their lives only to die just as they reached retirement age. Tell that to the poor of this world who work themselves into an early grave. Hard work over a lifetime takes its toll on the body, causing numerous aches and pains in the retirement age. I have found that the people who say ' hard work never killed anybody.' are generally people who work in the 'soft' industries, sitting at a desk, selling items. Tiring work, yes, but not physically demanding the way really hard work is.
> 
> I find your comments extremely demeaning to the poor and less fortunate of this world, people who only have their labour to offer, who earn their daily bread by the sweat of their brow. Stop being so damming of people who are not as intellectually inclined as you are, people who are less able to raise their station in life.
> 
> Remember the old saying 'the meek shall inherit the earth'. Not the greedy, not the intellectual, not the rich, not even the 'financially comfortable', but the meek.


Nor the loud-mouthed and the all-knowing, but the meek. Thank you, Eve.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> ----------
> I think the thing that irritates me the most about your all knowing posts is sentences like the first one in the above post. You act so condescending, and I for one don't care for it.
> 
> YOUR posts are just too judgmental and always right -- You play both sides against the middle from what I can see - and you are always the expert on most things - When people try to talk to you about your ideas you attack.
> ...


OK, how to respond... I think you're right that my posts have come across as rude and know it all. I apologize! I become defensive because it is very rare that anyone agrees with me or even reads about the subjects I post. Everyone just treats me like an idiot! What you state about the right's thread (denim snd pearls) is not true. I posted a comment there the other day that was similar to one I posted here and much discussion ensued. And yes, "over there" they talk about how awful the lefties including o are! But the very same things happen here, only vice versa! The only time real discussion ensues is when one crosses over, so to speak. And maybe you haven't been following for long, but not that long ago name calling and insults was the norm here. I'm trying to get back and forth discussion. I've learned a few things here and I'd like for others to learn from me. But it seems like no one will even LOOK at the things I bring up! It's frustrating! I will try to be more polite! But I can't promise that I will just agree with everybody. Am I the only one that wants to learn new things? I read the links. I even go further and google things. That's why it takes me so long to post a response. But I don't think that any of you take anything I say, seriously. I bet you don't even read my links past their titles.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Nebraska - Lazy seems to be the least of your family's issues. I have a bunch of other adjectives to describe them - loathsome being the kindest.


Not MY family! Thanks a lot!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> OK, how to respond... I think you're right that my posts have come across as rude and know it all. I apologize! I become defensive because it is very rare that anyone agrees with me or even reads about the subjects I post. Everyone just treats me like an idiot! What you state about the right's thread (denim snd pearls) is not true. I posted a comment there the other day that was similar to one I posted here and much discussion ensued. And yes, "over there" they talk about how awful the lefties including o are! But the very same things happen here, only vice versa! The only time real discussion ensues is when one crosses over, so to speak. And maybe you haven't been following for long, but not that long ago name calling and insults was the norm here. I'm trying to get back and forth discussion. I've learned a few things here and I'd like for others to learn from me. But it seems like no one will even LOOK at the things I bring up! It's frustrating! I will try to be more polite! But I can't promise that I will just agree with everybody. Am I the only one that wants to learn new things? I read the links. I even go further and google things. That's why it takes me so long to post a response. But I don't think that any of you take anything I say, seriously. I bet you don't even read my links past their titles.


As a matter of fact, this particular thread was designed to be a place where we lefties could relax and talk about whatever we wanted to without worrying about some righties coming in just to annoy us. That's why it has no particular title. Well, that's over with, thanks to you. I'm unwatching until we get it back.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You say, "there has always been climate change but this time it is believed that humans are accelerating the rate". Key word her is " believe"! I NEVER said GOD was the cause! I SAID man was the cause! Instead of judging denying what I said, read about it! There is MUCH evidence for weather modification! But to simply deny and accuse without looking at it is wrong!
> 
> Mine was not a religious diatribe! I barely mentioned GOD! Why are you so defensive? The theory of evolution requires faith too! No one has ever proven it! That's why they call it a theory! Never has anyone found a shred of evidence for cross species evolution. For the theory of evolution to be considered fact, there would have to be evidence of cross species evolution.


Of course there is--but the easiest way to understand is not to consider what's in the fossil record but what ISN'T. If there was no cross species evolution then all the species that now exist or have ever existed (like the dinosaurs) would be found all throughout the fossil record. Unfortunately for the creationists, evidence of land-based life didn't appear until about 400 million years ago...dinosaur fossils about 100 million years later. _Homo sapiens_ only appeared in the record about 200,000 years ago.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Obviously a lot of books aren't suitable for young children--but _The Bluest Eye_ is on the list for grades 9-12. Many high schoolers could probably appreciate and benefit from this novel but, as always, schools can opt out if they feel it isn't suitable.


I think that the biggest issue is that parents are not allowed to opt out. In fact, they aren't told ahead of time. There is so much literature available, why would they choose something like this for kids. They have their whole lives to expand their reading to these kinds of books.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I am not using religion as an explanation for how nature works. That is my objection.
> 
> "Now YOU brought up religion! Why is it ok to poke a stick at me? Do you want to talk religion, or not?!? You SAID, you didn't! So, which is it?"


No, you're only using it to slap me down!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> As a matter of fact, this particular thread was designed to be a place where we lefties could relax and talk about whatever we wanted to without worrying about some righties coming in just to annoy us. That's why it has no particular title. Well, that's over with, thanks to you. I'm unwatching until we get it back.


Ok. Fine! I'll leave you alone! Bye!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> One swallow does not spring make. Yes you have given an example of some of your extended family members but this does not hold true for all society. I warrant that there are many more positive examples than your negative example. Also ' As the old saying goes: hard work never killed anybody.' Tell that to the miners who toiled hard down the pit all their lives only to die just as they reached retirement age. Tell that to the poor of this world who work themselves into an early grave. Hard work over a lifetime takes its toll on the body, causing numerous aches and pains in the retirement age. I have found that the people who say ' hard work never killed anybody.' are generally people who work in the 'soft' industries, sitting at a desk, selling items. Tiring work, yes, but not physically demanding the way really hard work is.
> 
> I find your comments extremely demeaning to the poor and less fortunate of this world, people who only have their labour to offer, who earn their daily bread by the sweat of their brow. Stop being so damming of people who are not as intellectually inclined as you are, people who are less able to raise their station in life.
> 
> Remember the old saying 'the meek shall inherit the earth'. Not the greedy, not the intellectual, not the rich, not even the 'financially comfortable', but the meek.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> OK, how to respond... I think you're right that my posts have come across as rude and know it all. I apologize! I become defensive because it is very rare that anyone agrees with me or even reads about the subjects I post. Everyone just treats me like an idiot! What you state about the right's thread (denim snd pearls) is not true. I posted a comment there the other day that was similar to one I posted here and much discussion ensued. And yes, "over there" they talk about how awful the lefties including o are! But the very same things happen here, only vice versa! The only time real discussion ensues is when one crosses over, so to speak. And maybe you haven't been following for long, but not that long ago name calling and insults was the norm here. I'm trying to get back and forth discussion. I've learned a few things here and I'd like for others to learn from me. But it seems like no one will even LOOK at the things I bring up! It's frustrating! I will try to be more polite! But I can't promise that I will just agree with everybody. Am I the only one that wants to learn new things? I read the links. I even go further and google things. That's why it takes me so long to post a response. But I don't think that any of you take anything I say, seriously. I bet you don't even read my links past their titles.


I am perfectly willing to learn from you if what you say is something I can accept. Most of the things you state as fact are things I don't believe are facts. I am not going to tell you I agree with you when I think some of your 'opinions' are crap? I don't mean for a moment all of them are - but I don't agree with your feelings about most of the subjects you bring up as absolutely true when I just don't agree. I have read everyone of your posts, a goodly number I feel are off base, I think you are angry and believe the Government is out to get you -- and that your country deliberately tried to start World war II in both Europe and the Asia, I don't agree with any of that! It has nothing to do with insulting you - I just differ and don't agree!! I have that right.

I believe you have taken it upon yourself to convince us all that your opinion of what has happened and is happeining is the only opinion. I don't agree with some of the opinions on this thread and if I feel strongly about it I say so -- BUT if we don't agree, we can discuss without insulting each other and getting angry! that is my problem -- you are the onlyone who is thoughtful, right, (always right) and demand everyone agrees with you. Obviously many of us don't. You are posting your opinions on both sides of the spectrum - don't expect that you will find us agreeing with the things they agree with. These threads have been running since before the first election -- we don't see life the same way - there are basic differences that will not change on either side. My hope has always been that somehow both sides can once in awhile agree to look at it with the idea that one side is not ALWAYS RIGHT AND THE OTHER WRONG, or the other way around more and more I realize that it is never going to happen here at least -- I don't think that can be achieved by someone with ideas like yours coming in and hitting us over the head with your feeling that there are dreadful, hidden motives for everything that happens. On top of that -- no one likes being talked down to, and made to feel that their ideas are worthless. that is a fact.

I have no problem with you personally- I do however have a problem with the way you put forth your ideas some of the time as if we are idiots if we don't accept your ideas. I don't think you want conversation from what i can read from your posts, you want instant agreement and for us to tell you that you are right -- that just isn't going to happen. I don't feel that you are right. You have a right to your opinion but I have a right to mine. That is not discussion in my opinion. Political threads attract people with strong beliefs and ideas -- that have developed over years -- to come in and demand that others agree with your ideas which in my case I don't agree with, without being willing to at least acknowledge that others don't agree (you say you do but you still get upset if we don't} You seem to insist that we agree because you say so -- it doesn't work for me. .

Anyway I have no personal feelings against you -- I definitely don't agree with your opinions about many things. I will never agree unless it is absolutely proven -- and I doubt that can happen in a lot of cases. So there we are.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I thought that was a rude comment. I follow along quite closely. Sometimes it is unclear what is meant when the writer does not reference their particular topic.

I won't be following your comments in the future.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Follow along!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh, I see, you are carefully studying the porn subject.

Sorry. I couldn't resist. Bad me.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> SOFT porn?!? Look again!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you MIB.



MaidInBedlam said:


> The "proof" you want is in the carbon dating that Damemary mentioned. Check it out. Carbon dating isn't a matter of "just because someone says it, doesn't make it so." It's hard science.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> I checked your links, Nebraska, and while I'm not familiar with _Black Swan Green_ or _Dreaming In Cuban_, I have read (and studied) _The Bluest Eye_ and can attest to its quality. Yes, it does deal with the subjects of child molestation, abuse, and pre-teen pregnancy, but it does so in a sensitive and thought-provoking way. Toni Morrison is very talented writer--you (and others) might benefit from reading her works before passing judgement on them.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> One swallow does not spring make. Yes you have given an example of some of your extended family members but this does not hold true for all society. I warrant that there are many more positive examples than your negative example. Also ' As the old saying goes: hard work never killed anybody.' Tell that to the miners who toiled hard down the pit all their lives only to die just as they reached retirement age. Tell that to the poor of this world who work themselves into an early grave. Hard work over a lifetime takes its toll on the body, causing numerous aches and pains in the retirement age. I have found that the people who say ' hard work never killed anybody.' are generally people who work in the 'soft' industries, sitting at a desk, selling items. Tiring work, yes, but not physically demanding the way really hard work is.
> 
> I find your comments extremely demeaning to the poor and less fortunate of this world, people who only have their labour to offer, who earn their daily bread by the sweat of their brow. Stop being so damming of people who are not as intellectually inclined as you are, people who are less able to raise their station in life.
> 
> Remember the old saying 'the meek shall inherit the earth'. Not the greedy, not the intellectual, not the rich, not even the 'financially comfortable', but the meek.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :shock: :shock:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I just gave up on KIN today too. When I asked a question, I got a flip, rude answer.



Designer1234 said:


> ------------------
> What did you post this last link for? are you agreeing with what is said about porn in the schools? YOu have lost me.
> 
> What exactly are you trying to say?? I am not interested in this type of post - and so I doubt I will read any more of your posts. I have been reading what you write for 3 or 4 days and still have not figured out what your real feelings about anything are , or what your agenda is.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I am not enchanted with your friend. She may be a lovely friend, but I find her comments lacking.



SQM said:


> Neb - you are wrong on so many counts in your lengthy post. First, neanderthal genes have been found in our species which proves they were just a variant of us. There has always been climate change but this time it is believed that humans are accelerating the rate. God can never be used as the cause since there is no substantial proof of her existence. God requires faith, science requires proof. As a textbook writer, I always think of Texas as my standard for what to include - since it is a quite influential market, albeit a very conservative one. The best part of Marx's Capital was his critique of Capitalism. The second part - the rise of the proletariat state did not interest me. My failing as a Marxist came about because I could not embrace the working class. I will not be responding to your religious diatribes in the future. They make no sense and no minds are going to be changed here. Just remember that throughout human history, gods have come and gone. Today's religion, tomorrow's Myths. I still like you, tho.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Designer 1234 and myself have both given up on her entirely today. Nobody's home.



Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> Just take a deep breath and try to figure out what you want to say. You keep losing me. Perhaps that is good.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I remind myself regularly too. I hope to keep my mind open.



Poor Purl said:


> I just reread this and realized I had skipped the "I think" the first time around.
> 
> Very clever.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No, you're only using it to slap me down!


no one is picking on you! we just don't always or actually we rarely agree with you. You say you are here to spread different ideas and to go on both sides. Why? We don't need somone new to come and lecture us - we don't need you to represent us. We have been on these threads for many years! YOu have visited us for two weeks and wonder why we don't appreciate you coming here to fix us.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> What is this "cross species evolution" you keep referring to? It's certainly not what is taught in science classes.
> 
> And doesn't the fact that the temperature in early May is 92 degrees tell you something? Nebraska is not on the equator, is it? Seriously, that fact says nothing about global climate change, but only about this week's weather in Nebraska. But everyone except you and the two guys you read knows climate change is happening, will endanger us all, and is caused by human actions that could be stopped or mitigated if only the fossil-fuel billionaires didn't fight it.
> 
> The rest of your message is not as well-written as the ones I sent you to, and I couldn't finish reading it.


Everyone seems to be having difficulty discussing anything with KIN today. Are you ready to join?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> When does your chemistry text date from? It probably needs carbon dating to determine.
> 
> A whole lot of science has been done since that date.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Checkmate.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

This topic has been hijacked, in case no one else has noticed. I will not post again until we have a real discussion going. Ta ta.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

damemary said:


> This topic has been hijacked, in case no one else has noticed. I will not post again until we have a real discussion going. Ta ta.


We just don't have to read those right-wing sources when we know we're right! (Or is that left?) Some of it was interesting but really radical, fringe-y stuff that I would find difficult to believe. There's a lot to "swallow" out there.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Of course there is--but the easiest way to understand is not to consider what's in the fossil record but what ISN'T. If there was no cross species evolution then all the species that now exist or have ever existed (like the dinosaurs) would be found all throughout the fossil record. Unfortunately for the creationists, evidence of land-based life didn't appear until about 400 million years ago...dinosaur fossils about 100 million years later. _Homo sapiens_ only appeared in the record about 200,000 years ago.


A fundamentalist explained to me that god created the world in its entirety - meaning with a past. So even tho the world was created some 6000 plus years ago, god created it to look like there was life 400 million years ago. Just love how they have an answer for everything and how creative but ludicrous the answer is.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I am not enchanted with your friend. She may be a lovely friend, but I find her comments lacking.


She's dumped me so I think my friendship is over. I liked her government insights when it did not get so close to the Apocalypse but I could not cotton up to her religious spin. (Where did I get that expression from?) Anyway, she has the D and D ladies all in a scurry to pack their disaster bags.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I personally KNOW plenty of lazy poor people! Let me tell you about a member of my extended family (brother of my dil). Lazy man! Started his young adult life by living off of student loans but didn't go to class. Racked up credit card bills he didn't pay, then declared bankruptcy. He brags about this! Then, his sister (not my dil) has three kids she didn't take care of so the state placed them with him and his wife. They also double dipped by claiming that his mother babysat them on weekdays. She was paid and gave that money to him. His wife went to school on grants. Neither of them took care of these children. Their house was filthy, with dirty diapers all over and he would wipe his boogers all over the walls. My dil said junk was a foot deep on the floors. Child protective services were called, the children were removed until they cleaned the place up. They just threw everything away, including the children's toys so that they wouldn't have to keep picking them up. They got the children back. When his wife finished school, she taught for one year and then quit. They lived off of these children! Then they started to see his sister (and my son) working hard and getting ahead. A nice new house etc... So he decided that perhaps they could have more too. He started out by doing computer work for a Realtor and decided he actually liked to work. Eventually he and his wive got their real estate licensee. He works full time and she, part time. Now I've given you, TWO examples of lazy people I know who have lived off of welfare. So I know that they exist!
> 
> Oh! By the way, Poor Pearl mentioned her father retiring and collecting social security. So it didn't send him to an early death! As the old saying goes: hard work never killed anybody. At least that's what people who work hard, say!


Knitter from Nebraska
which Roller Coaster are you riding? Hard work has killed the majority of prev. Generations. Go and read some History. Are there some Takers? Of course, but their numbers are relatively low. People who work hard are always encouraging themselves to keep going because they have no choice. 
Poor Purl's Father is a lucky Man. Hopefully he can collect what he paid into the system for a long time.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> which Roller Coaster are you riding? Hard work has killed the majority of prev. Generations. Go and read some History. Are there some Takers? Of course, but their numbers are relatively low. People who work hard are always encouraging themselves to keep going because they have no choice.
> Poor Purl's Father is a lucky Man. Hopefully he can collect what he paid into the system for a long time.


PP's dad is dead. But hopefully he enjoyed the fruit of his labor and I am sure PP was one of them.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Do you know what carbon dating is? Do you know what is the half life of carbon? My source is my college degree. I'm sure you do not have a copy of my college Chemistry text book to check.


I don't have a copy of your college text as I am sure it is outdated. 
While I studied bilogy in college instead of chemistry, I am quite awaree of the usage of carbon dating. I'm still waiting for your source(s) and your college text won't cut it. (Was your college accredited, or was it a Christian imitation of higher education?)
:twisted:


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> A fundamentalist explained to me that god created the world in its entirety - meaning with a past. So even tho the world was created some 6000 plus years ago, god created it to look like there was life 400 million years ago. Just love how they have an answer for everything and how creative but ludicrous the answer is.


SQM
One would think that growing up would make one see what is real and what is not but that does not happen when the trained Preachers spin their Tales again and again. In addition these folks put the fear of whomever into their Flock and that keeps them in check. I guess some always keep believing that Fairy Tales come true. How gullible.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

damemary said:


> Everyone seems to be having difficulty discussing anything with KIN today. Are you ready to join?


I'd rather bang my head against a wall, at least it won't hurt when I stop.
:roll:


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

damemary said:


> Designer 1234 and myself have both given up on her entirely today. Nobody's home.


The lights aren't even on.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> Everyone seems to be having difficulty discussing anything with KIN today. Are you ready to join?


damemary
KIN is in a "spin" cycle. You know that web kind of spinning.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I personally KNOW plenty of lazy poor people! Let me tell you about a member of my extended family (brother of my dil). Lazy man! Started his young adult life by living off of student loans but didn't go to class. Racked up credit card bills he didn't pay, then declared bankruptcy. He brags about this! Then, his sister (not my dil) has three kids she didn't take care of so the state placed them with him and his wife. They also double dipped by claiming that his mother babysat them on weekdays. She was paid and gave that money to him. His wife went to school on grants. Neither of them took care of these children. Their house was filthy, with dirty diapers all over and he would wipe his boogers all over the walls. My dil said junk was a foot deep on the floors. Child protective services were called, the children were removed until they cleaned the place up. They just threw everything away, including the children's toys so that they wouldn't have to keep picking them up. They got the children back. When his wife finished school, she taught for one year and then quit. They lived off of these children! Then they started to see his sister (and my son) working hard and getting ahead. A nice new house etc... So he decided that perhaps they could have more too. He started out by doing computer work for a Realtor and decided he actually liked to work. Eventually he and his wive got their real estate licensee. He works full time and she, part time. Now I've given you, TWO examples of lazy people I know who have lived off of welfare. So I know that they exist!
> 
> Oh! By the way, Poor Pearl mentioned her father retiring and collecting social security. So it didn't send him to an early death! As the old saying goes: hard work never killed anybody. At least that's what people who work hard, say!


I am quite sure that every single one of us knows people who mooch off the system. However, I am also quite sure that every single one of us knows lots more who don't,

And yes, hard work did kill my father.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> which Roller Coaster are you riding? Hard work has killed the majority of prev. Generations. Go and read some History. Are there some Takers? Of course, but their numbers are relatively low. People who work hard are always encouraging themselves to keep going because they have no choice.
> Poor Purl's Father is a lucky Man. Hopefully he can collect what he paid into the system for a long time.


Sorry, Huck, but he's been gone for over 25 years. He did manage to enjoy his last ten years, did some traveling, which he never had time for before.

The expression "Hard work never killed anyone" reminds me of something a nurse once said to my husband, who had recently had surgery and screamed when she pushed him: "A little pain never hurt anyone." Equally false, and maybe even dumber.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I have read some Toni Morrison's books! They are NOT appropriate for children!


And what would you have high school students read? THe Moody series by Sarah Maxwell? If you aren't familiar with them, check out the Maxwell blog. Ultra right-wing Christians way over the crazy line.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> PP's dad is dead. But hopefully he enjoyed the fruit of his labor and I am sure PP was one of them.


I think I was the fruit of my mother's labor. But my father was wonderful, and we did enjoy each other's company.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You say, "there has always been climate change but this time it is believed that humans are accelerating the rate". Key word her is " believe"! I NEVER said GOD was the cause! I SAID man was the cause! Instead of judging denying what I said, read about it! There is MUCH evidence for weather modification! But to simply deny and accuse without looking at it is wrong!
> 
> Mine was not a religious diatribe! I barely mentioned GOD! Why are you so defensive? The theory of evolution requires faith too! No one has ever proven it! That's why they call it a theory! Never has anyone found a shred of evidence for cross species evolution. For the theory of evolution to be considered fact, there would have to be evidence of cross species evolution. Find it! You can't!
> 
> It quite peeves me that you say you will not respond to my religious diatribes any longer. When have I ever posted a religious diatribe? Diatribes, yes! Religious, no. I listen to all of you say there is no GOD. I don't insult you! I don't tell you, you are going to hell! I try my best to treat you with respect! Will you (the collective you) not do the same?


You just cannot see that everything you write is a religious diatribe. With way too many exclamation points, too(!!!)


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> what a story. Well there have to be Fairy Tales for Adults to make it through Life I guess. Some folks always hunger for conspiracies.


Ha ha, my college-educated grandmother believed that Hitler was alive and well in the Andes, so all things are possible.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> She's dumped me so I think my friendship is over. I liked her government insights when it did not get so close to the Apocalypse but I could not cotton up to her religious spin. (Where did I get that expression from?) Anyway, she has the D and D ladies all in a scurry to pack their disaster bags.


She dumped you? Did it hurt when she told you?

Seriously, what government insights? That politicians are crooks? That the wealthy are taking over everything? Any other startling insights?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> I'd rather bang my head against a wall, at least it won't hurt when I stop.
> :roll:


And you'd accomplish more. :lol:


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> A fundamentalist explained to me that god created the world in its entirety - meaning with a past. So even tho the world was created some 6000 plus years ago, god created it to look like there was life 400 million years ago. Just love how they have an answer for everything and how creative but ludicrous the answer is.


Yes, those "rational" explanations can be very entertaining. Personally, I've always felt the the Fundamentalists' attempts to make creationism more "scientific" indicate, deep down, a certain lack of faith themselves. As someone pointed out earlier, science is based on facts and religion on faith. Religion doesn't need facts to support it, and certainly not the distorted twisted ones being generated by the Religious Right. Some folks are so desperate for "scientific" proof to bolster their own sagging beliefs that they waste a lifetime searching the Turkish mountains for the wreckage of Noah's ark. It's absolutely pitiful.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> She's dumped me so I think my friendship is over. I liked her government insights when it did not get so close to the Apocalypse but I could not cotton up to her religious spin. (Where did I get that expression from?) Anyway, she has the D and D ladies all in a scurry to pack their disaster bags.


Well, she did make things lively!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Sorry, Huck, but he's been gone for over 25 years. He did manage to enjoy his last ten years, did some traveling, which he never had time for before.
> 
> The expression "Hard work never killed anyone" reminds me of something a nurse once said to my husband, who had recently had surgery and screamed when she pushed him: "A little pain never hurt anyone." Equally false, and maybe even dumber.


Give that dame the Nurse Ratchet Award for insensitivity. Yow!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Give that dame the Nurse Ratchet Award for insensitivity. Yow!


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> She dumped you? Did it hurt when she told you?
> 
> Seriously, what government insights? That politicians are crooks? That the wealthy are taking over everything? Any other startling insights?


no it did not hurt one bit. Didn't you quote a little pain is good for you? If I accept the savior as my personal savior all will be forgiven I am sure. If I do, I will come out on this thread. Actually I am good with one-sided relationships - was in one for almost 23 years. As for Nebs' politics - I loved her cynicism - right there with my own. So maybe my attachment was a narcissistic one. Whatever. I am sure she is a fine person just a bit zealous, which is guess is okay too. She was very nice to me on D and D when Country Bumpkin was trying to climb into my canopy.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> no it did not hurt one bit. Didn't you quote a little pain is good for you? If I accept the savior as my personal savior all will be forgiven I am sure. If I do, I will come out on this thread. Actually I am good with one-sided relationships - was in one for almost 23 years. As for Nebs' politics - I loved her cynicism - right there with my own. So maybe my attachment was a narcissistic one. Whatever. I am sure she is a fine person just a bit zealous, which is guess is okay too. She was very nice to me on D and D when Country Bumpkin was trying to climb into my canopy.


I saw how the Bumpkins went after you. But it's okay, because she knows she's forgiven.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

What a bright thought just occurred to me! We should pair off. When one of the pair writes a snide or untoward comment to the other side, the other person will automatically forgive her. Confess and forgive.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> What a bright thought just occurred to me! We should pair off. When one of the pair writes a snide or untoward comment to the other side, the other person will automatically forgive her. Confess and forgive.


Great idea, at least for non-Christians. Christians automatically get forgiveness.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Great idea, at least for non-Christians. Christians automatically get forgiveness.


Then we have to be a pair. I will use the symbol  to show I grant you forgiveness when you say something very witty.

Need a book suggestion. Help me ladies. Something intelligent.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Sorry, Huck, but he's been gone for over 25 years. He did manage to enjoy his last ten years, did some traveling, which he never had time for before.
> 
> The expression "Hard work never killed anyone" reminds me of something a nurse once said to my husband, who had recently had surgery and screamed when she pushed him: "A little pain never hurt anyone." Equally false, and maybe even dumber.


Amazing that anyone who became a nurse would feel and say something like that -- I hope she experienced the same thing 'that never hurt anyone! sheeeesh


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> no it did not hurt one bit. Didn't you quote a little pain is good for you? If I accept the savior as my personal savior all will be forgiven I am sure. If I do, I will come out on this thread. Actually I am good with one-sided relationships - was in one for almost 23 years. As for Nebs' politics - I loved her cynicism - right there with my own. So maybe my attachment was a narcissistic one. Whatever. I am sure she is a fine person just a bit zealous, which is guess is okay too. She was very nice to me on D and D when Country Bumpkin was trying to climb into my canopy.


Really, it was a fine attempt at _detente_. I viewed it as personal challenge: 1)could I refrain for once from making flip and sarcastic comments to a rightie, and 2)could I bear the pain of having to bite my own tongue almost down to the quick in order to keep quiet?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Really, it was a fine attempt at _detente_. I viewed it as personal challenge: 1)could I refrain for once from making flip and sarcastic comments to a rightie, and 2)could I bear the pain of having to bite my own tongue almost down to the quick in order to keep quiet?


  I will forgive you, My Child, for your efforts.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> I will forgive you, My Child, for your efforts.


Thank you, Father!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> Then we have to be a pair. I will use the symbol  to show I grant you forgiveness when you say something very witty.
> 
> Need a book suggestion. Help me ladies. Something intelligent.


Funny you should mention books...I'm going through a fierce internal struggle because I located Betty Smith's (A Tree Grows In Brooklyn, Joy In the Morning) book notes and drafts in the University of North Carolina's Special Collections. They're available to the public in the reading room, but I can't just fly all the way across the country for something like that. So then I got the bright idea off contacting the library to see if the papers could be digitized and sent to me. Yes, they can...for a mere $252! It would be reckless extravagance, but oh I'm so tempted!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Please friends and ladies, send me some book suggestions. I will be forced to read old editions of The New Yorker if I cannot find something to read. I might even have to knit.

If you are over 65 Mos - do it. Time tarries for no one. (What the bleep did that mean?) I made myself laugh again. Ha ha ha ha.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> Please friends and ladies, send me some book suggestions. I will be forced to read old editions of The New Yorker if I cannot find something to read. I might even have to knit.
> 
> If you are over 65 Mos - do it. Time tarries for no one. (What the bleep did that mean?) I made myself laugh again. Ha ha ha ha.


What genre are you in to right now? Biographies? Non-fiction? Novels?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I have been reading early 20th century British novels by forgotten writers. I will read anything that is bright and well-written. No violence or Nazis.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

maysmom said:


> And yes, hard work did kill my father.


And mine.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> I have been reading early 20th century British novels by forgotten writers. I will read anything that is bright and well-written. No violence or Nazis.


Hmm...have you read The Heavy by Dara-Lynn Weiss? She caused a big ruckus by putting her seven-year old daughter Bee on a strict diet and writing about it in Vogue. Absolute mindcandy, but great if you're in the mood for something light.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Amazing that anyone who became a nurse would feel and say something like that -- I hope she experienced the same thing 'that never hurt anyone! sheeeesh


That was during the period when they thought pain really was good for healing. How nice it was when they discovered otherwise.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Then we have to be a pair. I will use the symbol  to show I grant you forgiveness when you say something very witty.
> 
> Need a book suggestion. Help me ladies. Something intelligent.


And I will use :twisted: for you.

Got no books for you. I'm still reading Wharton.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Really, it was a fine attempt at _detente_. I viewed it as personal challenge: 1)could I refrain for once from making flip and sarcastic comments to a rightie, and 2)could I bear the pain of having to bite my own tongue almost down to the quick in order to keep quiet?


I have to see this. Was it today? yesterday? Monday?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Funny you should mention books...I'm going through a fierce internal struggle because I located Betty Smith's (A Tree Grows In Brooklyn, Joy In the Morning) book notes and drafts in the University of North Carolina's Special Collections. They're available to the public in the reading room, but I can't just fly all the way across the country for something like that. So then I got the bright idea off contacting the library to see if the papers could be digitized and sent to me. Yes, they can...for a mere $252! It would be reckless extravagance, but oh I'm so tempted!


Have you done some work on Betty Smith? What's your connection to her?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I have been reading early 20th century British novels by forgotten writers. I will read anything that is bright and well-written. No violence or Nazis.


Can you tell us who these writers are, or have you forgotten?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I have to see this. Was it today? yesterday? Monday?


All three, pretty much. It's not a pretty sight--I think I need a tongue splint + gauze and tape.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Have you done some work on Betty Smith? What's your connection to her?


No, no formal research, but I read _A Tree Grows In Brooklyn_ in fifth grade and have been fascinated by Smith ever since. _A Tree_ turned out to be a minor modern classic, but in general it seems that she found her niche in the wrong genre. She wrote brilliant dialogue and produced any number of really solid one-act plays. IF she had begun her writing career in her twenties...IF so much of her energy hadn't been consumed by three difficult husbands in a row...who knows? She very possibly had the talent to become one of America's leading playwrights.

Anyway, the papers I'm interested in are ten folders filled with early drafts of _A Tree_ and _Tomorrow Will Be Better_ (her second novel). She did massive revisions on both works--cutting, adding, changing this and altering that. I'm not sure how complete the collection is, but I'm itching to follow the gradual development of the novels over the years it took her to get them ready for publication.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Susan is our very own budding novelist. I love her style and wit and am waiting for a signed copy.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Susan is our very own budding novelist. I love her style and wit and am waiting for a signed copy.


Thanks, Al...I'm blushing.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Thanks, Al...I'm blushing.


My friend and neighbor across the street used to write for the Times, and she writes me texts and emails that are deserving of a prize. Then I come here and see more excellent writing. I also have a brother with great writing skills. I've spent my last working years writing boring reports, but at least I know how to stick in an adverb or two she said woefully.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We'll have to remember that anytime they've over-stayed their welcome. "Boo! Here comes the Apocalypse."



SQM said:


> She's dumped me so I think my friendship is over. I liked her government insights when it did not get so close to the Apocalypse but I could not cotton up to her religious spin. (Where did I get that expression from?) Anyway, she has the D and D ladies all in a scurry to pack their disaster bags.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I had enough critical thinking skills when I was 12 to realize the flaws in some teachings. Now it upsets me terribly to think adults accept anything they are told.



Huckleberry said:


> SQM
> One would think that growing up would make one see what is real and what is not but that does not happen when the trained Preachers spin their Tales again and again. In addition these folks put the fear of whomever into their Flock and that keeps them in check. I guess some always keep believing that Fairy Tales come true. How gullible.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Will it all go down the drain cleanly?



Huckleberry said:


> damemary
> KIN is in a "spin" cycle. You know that web kind of spinning.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm sorry to hear about your Dad. My Dad died much too young too.



maysmom said:


> I am quite sure that every single one of us knows people who mooch off the system. However, I am also quite sure that every single one of us knows lots more who don't,
> 
> And yes, hard work did kill my father.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Many of Hitler's buddies hid out in South America for years.....some in USA too. Grandmothers can believe anything they want.



maysmom said:


> Ha ha, my college-educated grandmother believed that Hitler was alive and well in the Andes, so all things are possible.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> She dumped you? Did it hurt when she told you?
> 
> Seriously, what government insights? That politicians are crooks? That the wealthy are taking over everything? Any other startling insights?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> And you'd accomplish more. :lol:


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I keep thinking that there must be an appropriate retaliation for the pain remark.



susanmos2000 said:


> Give that dame the Nurse Ratchet Award for insensitivity. Yow!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm stuck for reading material. I'm rereading old favorites....Joy Luck Club by Amy Tan right now.



SQM said:


> Please friends and ladies, send me some book suggestions. I will be forced to read old editions of The New Yorker if I cannot find something to read. I might even have to knit.
> 
> If you are over 65 Mos - do it. Time tarries for no one. (What the bleep did that mean?) I made myself laugh again. Ha ha ha ha.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> That was during the period when they thought pain really was good for healing. How nice it was when they discovered otherwise.


I wonder how many medical personnel were tweeked in sensitive areas before they made the discovery.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Thanks, Al...I'm blushing.


Have you written a novel Susan? I always wanted to write but got too involved in other things. What kind of novel if I may ask!

Are you at the point of getting it published??? That is interesting -- I applaud you!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> No, no formal research, but I read _A Tree Grows In Brooklyn_ in fifth grade and have been fascinated by Smith ever since. _A Tree_ turned out to be a minor modern classic, but in general it seems that she found her niche in the wrong genre. She wrote brilliant dialogue and produced any number of really solid one-act plays. IF she had begun her writing career in her twenties...IF so much of her energy hadn't been consumed by three difficult husbands in a row...who knows? She very possibly had the talent to become one of America's leading playwrights.
> 
> Anyway, the papers I'm interested in are ten folders filled with early drafts of _A Tree_ and _Tomorrow Will Be Better_ (her second novel). She did massive revisions on both works--cutting, adding, changing this and altering that. I'm not sure how complete the collection is, but I'm itching to follow the gradual development of the novels over the years it took her to get them ready for publication.


Your enthusiasm is impressive. It looks like you already know a lot about her. Is this the way biographies get started? I think I might hunt up a couple of her one-acters.

Whatever you decide to do about the papers, it sounds like you're onto an interesting project.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I wonder how many medical personnel were tweeked in sensitive areas before they made the discovery.


That's a funny question. It's more likely that a couple of drug-addicted doctors came up with the idea.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Susan is our very own budding novelist. I love her style and wit and am waiting for a signed copy.


I'm right behind you in line.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I keep thinking that there must be an appropriate retaliation for the pain remark.


A good swift kick would have accomplished a lot. But DH at that time was a a very well-behaved and a very young man. So young that when one of the nurses announced that Billie Holiday had just died, he asked, "Who's he?"

And just in case you've been having a cheery spring day today,


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your Dad. My Dad died much too young too.


Thanks, Dame. Our families were cheated out of years of happiness and love. My dad would have loved my SIL, I know.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'm stuck for reading material. I'm rereading old favorites....Joy Luck Club by Amy Tan right now.


Dame, have you read The World to Come by Dara Horn? DSD's husband suggested it.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

maysmom said:


> I don't have a copy of your college text as I am sure it is outdated.
> While I studied bilogy in college instead of chemistry, I am quite awaree of the usage of carbon dating. I'm still waiting for your source(s) and your college text won't cut it. (Was your college accredited, or was it a Christian imitation of higher education?)
> :twisted:


maysmom
BINGO!


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I am perfectly willing to learn from you if what you say is something I can accept. Most of the things you state as fact are things I don't believe are facts. I am not going to tell you I agree with you when I think some of your 'opinions' are crap? I don't mean for a moment all of them are - but I don't agree with your feelings about most of the subjects you bring up as absolutely true when I just don't agree. I have read everyone of your posts, a goodly number I feel are off base, I think you are angry and believe the Government is out to get you -- and that your country deliberately tried to start World war II in both Europe and the Asia, I don't agree with any of that! It has nothing to do with insulting you - I just differ and don't agree!! I have that right.
> 
> I believe you have taken it upon yourself to convince us all that your opinion of what has happened and is happeining is the only opinion. I don't agree with some of the opinions on this thread and if I feel strongly about it I say so -- BUT if we don't agree, we can discuss without insulting each other and getting angry! that is my problem -- you are the onlyone who is thoughtful, right, (always right) and demand everyone agrees with you. Obviously many of us don't. You are posting your opinions on both sides of the spectrum - don't expect that you will find us agreeing with the things they agree with. These threads have been running since before the first election -- we don't see life the same way - there are basic differences that will not change on either side. My hope has always been that somehow both sides can once in awhile agree to look at it with the idea that one side is not ALWAYS RIGHT AND THE OTHER WRONG, or the other way around more and more I realize that it is never going to happen here at least -- I don't think that can be achieved by someone with ideas like yours coming in and hitting us over the head with your feeling that there are dreadful, hidden motives for everything that happens. On top of that -- no one likes being talked down to, and made to feel that their ideas are worthless. that is a fact.
> 
> ...


 Well said, I agree with your sentiments. We do not have to always agree 100% with what someone else says, but we can disagree with dignity. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, we must allow everyone to state their opinion. We also have the right to say we disagree. The world would be a poorer place if everyone agreed totally and unquestionably with the opinions of just a few people. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, to name a few, demanded people accepted their point of view, unquestionably. We all know what the result was. We need discourse to find common ground. When people try to force their opinions on others people will react strongly. This will often lead to people disregarding everything that the other person says. I know I have often been guilty of over reacting. I have strong views. I believe it is a human failing.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Have you written a novel Susan? I always wanted to write but got too involved in other things. What kind of novel if I may ask!
> 
> Are you at the point of getting it published??? That is interesting -- I applaud you!


Thanks, Designer. Yes, I've done some professional writing--promotional material for various wineries, greeting card verbiage, some stories for minor league children's magazines. I started a distopian novel aimed at young adults a few years back. The publisher liked it enough to send a contract but ultimately wanted a trilogy--no commitment to publish until I finished volume two and produced an outline for #3. Did that to my editor's satisfaction--now she's sent me back to #1 with a list of suggestions for "tightening it up". Bleah. It's been more than three years--I now know the novel(s) so well I could probably recite the text from cover to cover.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Can you tell us who these writers are, or have you forgotten?


I wish I could laugh at your memory quip but I do remember nothing. But I like it that way. Yes I can name a few I have been reading - Flora Thompson - too clean cut, E.F Benson - a bit amusing but still writing those long 19th century style sentences and I have a Margaret Oliphant waiting to be read. I like her name because I like elephants. Barbara Pym is more mid-century but I like her a lot. I just downloaded The Goldfinch because it won the Pulitzer. So that is what I read or what is in my queue.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

but at least I know how to stick in an adverb or two she said woefully.[/quote]

And I read it delightfully.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I wish I could laugh at your memory quip but I do remember nothing. But I like it that way. Yes I can name a few I have been reading - Flora Thompson - too clean cut, E.F Benson - a bit amusing but still writing those long 19th century style sentences and I have a Margaret Oliphant waiting to be read. I like her name because I like elephants. Barbara Pym is more mid-century but I like her a lot. I just downloaded The Goldfinch because it won the Pulitzer. So that is what I read or what is in my queue.


I thought they would all be unknown to me, but I went through a Barbara Pym period, read all her novels. Did E. F. Benson write mysteries? And Flora Thompson, Cold Comfort Farm? I'm probably guessing wrong, but I'm surprised any of the names rang a bell. More things for me to try when Wharton is only a memory.

Just checked on myself. Cold Comfort Farm is by Stella Gibbons but the main character is named Flora. It's a very funny book about a city girl who, when her parents die, goes to live with relatives on a farm - very weird relatives, for the most part.

Also wrong about E. F. Benson. He wrote a huge number of books, but the only genre he skipped was mysteries.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> but at least I know how to stick in an adverb or two she said woefully.


And I read it delightfully.[/quote]Did you maybe mean "delightedly"? Or is your reading style delightful?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Thanks, Designer. Yes, I've done some professional writing--promotional material for various wineries, greeting card verbiage, some stories for minor league children's magazines. I started a distopian novel aimed at young adults a few years back. The publisher liked it enough to send a contract but ultimately wanted a trilogy--no commitment to publish until I finished volume two and produced an outline for #3. Did that to my editor's satisfaction--now she's sent me back to #1 with a list of suggestions for "tightening it up". Bleah. It's been more than three years--I now know the novel(s) so well I could probably recite the text from cover to cover.


Now I'm doubly impressed. The only thing I ever had published was a one-line note in the NY Review of Books. Not exactly, but that's the thing I'm proudest of.

SQM is in the midst of writing a book, too. What a literate crowd we are. Now where are the cream-cheese recipes?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Now I'm doubly impressed. The only thing I ever had published was a one-line note in the NY Review of Books. Not exactly, but that's the thing I'm proudest of.
> 
> SQM is in the midst of writing a book, too. What a literate crowd we are. Now where are the cream-cheese recipes?


Hehe--maybe we lefties should publish our own cookbook! Can anyone think of a suitable title?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Go our Suzannah! I will enjoy reading it immensely.



Poor Purl said:


> I'm right behind you in line.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

What a talented lady! It's always blues, and sad, but moving. 
Thanks.



Poor Purl said:


> A good swift kick would have accomplished a lot. But DH at that time was a a very well-behaved and a very young man. So young that when one of the nurses announced that Billie Holiday had just died, he asked, "Who's he?"
> 
> And just in case you've been having a cheery spring day today,


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'll check it out. Thanks for thinking of me.



maysmom said:


> Dame, have you read The World to Come by Dara Horn? DSD's husband suggested it.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That's an editor's job. Annoying, but ultimately it should improve it. You've got us all waiting in line go purchase and make your publisher smile. hugs



susanmos2000 said:


> Thanks, Designer. Yes, I've done some professional writing--promotional material for various wineries, greeting card verbiage, some stories for minor league children's magazines. I started a distopian novel aimed at young adults a few years back. The publisher liked it enough to send a contract but ultimately wanted a trilogy--no commitment to publish until I finished volume two and produced an outline for #3. Did that to my editor's satisfaction--now she's sent me back to #1 with a list of suggestions for "tightening it up". Bleah. It's been more than three years--I now know the novel(s) so well I could probably recite the text from cover to cover.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Did you maybe mean "delightedly"? Or is your reading style delightful?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: I enjoy your banter so much.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> That's an editor's job. Annoying, but ultimately it should improve it. You've got us all waiting in line go purchase and make your publisher smile. hugs


Thanks, Dame. For the most part I've never minded making revisions--in fact, it was a relief to have an editor step in and tell me in a nutshell what was wrong with this scene or that and offer suggestions on how to improve it. Believe me, after three years I've completely lost any sense of objectivity! It's almost impossible after a certain point for me to judge a character's effectiveness or whether a certain passage is too long or too short.

Only one suggestion ever stuck in my craw: to change a character who functions as something of a _deux ex machina_ from boy to girl. The assumption was that young women--the book's primary audience--wouldn't appreciate having a relatively unknown male figure sweep in and get the situation back on track.

My initial thought after I understand what the editor was getting at was, My! how times have changed!

Ultimately of course the editor was correct. Making that change made the novel more realistic, improved the pacing, and alerted me to other instances of subtle sexual stereotyping that had somehow crept in.

So that's the deal. After three years of squinting at the computer screen I have a novel, eyestrain, and a cardboard box full of scribbled-out drafts and notes. The famous and talented Betty Smith preserved her papers as a testament to hard work and perseverance. This unknown (and not nearly so talented) gal intends to use hers as fuel for a weenie roast, to which all the LOLL ladies are invited!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Did you maybe mean "delightedly"? Or is your reading style delightful?


I felt something was amiss 'cause I kept rereading and rereading.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Now I'm doubly impressed. The only thing I ever had published was a one-line note in the NY Review of Books. Not exactly, but that's the thing I'm proudest of.
> 
> SQM is in the midst of writing a book, too. What a literate crowd we are. Now where are the cream-cheese recipes?


Please quote the one-line note. Impressive publication albeit dry at times. (Exman subscribed so I don't like it.)


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Please quote the one-line note. Impressive publication albeit dry at times. (Exman subscribed so I don't like it.)


Later. Dentist at noon.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Later. Dentist at noon.


Not so impressed with those lines. How did they get printed in the NY Review of Books?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Not so impressed with those lines. How did they get printed in the NY Review of Books?


Very funny. Just for that, you'll have to sit through the entire boring story.

Sometime in its past (1980s or 90s), NYRB began running a crossword puzzle in each issue, usually a very clever one. DH was the one who read the reviews, but I did the puzzles. One fortnight (biweek?), one clue was "Part of the Ducal Litany," and what was to be entered was "hi de hi de ho." Naturally, I needed to correct what was an obvious error and wrote the crossword compiler that "hi de hi de ho" is not in the Ducal Litany but comes from the Cabala. That was the line that was published, with the following response: "Pardon my callow ways."


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Hehe--maybe we lefties should publish our own cookbook! Can anyone think of a suitable title?


A baking book could be titled _Sprinkle Liberally with Flour_. Or not.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Very funny. Just for that, you'll have to sit through the entire boring story.
> 
> Sometime in its past (1980s or 90s), NYRB began running a crossword puzzle in each issue, usually a very clever one. DH was the one who read the reviews, but I did the puzzles. One fortnight (biweek?), one clue was "Part of the Ducal Litany," and what was to be entered was "hi de hi de ho." Naturally, I needed to correct what was an obvious error and wrote the crossword compiler that "hi de hi de ho" is not in the Ducal Litany but comes from the Cabala. That was the line that was published, with the following response: "Pardon my callow ways."


Do you really think that any of us understood your story. An obvious error? Did the dentist give you laughing gas?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Do you really think that any of us understood your story. An obvious error? Did the dentist give you laughing gas?


I thought maybe one person would get it. I guess you're not that one.

Obviously, the clue was referring to the works of Duke Ellington, but hi de hi de ho, as every properly educated person knows, was sung by Cab Calloway. The idiot compiler couldn't tell the difference between two elegant black bandleaders with mustaches.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I thought maybe one person would get it. I guess you're not that one.
> 
> Obviously, the clue was referring to the works of Duke Ellington, but hi de hi de ho, as every properly educated person knows, was sung by Cab Calloway. The idiot compiler couldn't tell the difference between two elegant black bandleaders with mustaches.


I know the Cab Calloway song. What exactly did the clue say?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I know the Cab Calloway song. What exactly did the clue say?


It said, as I wrote 2 messages ago, "Part of the Ducal Litany."


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> It said, as I wrote 2 messages ago, "Part of the Ducal Litany."


Got it now. Ha ha. Tilt. Wrong.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> A baking book could be titled _Sprinkle Liberally with Flour_. Or not.


Where would the following be categorized--"Judicious use of a grain of salt?"

Sorry, it's a sinus headache day...


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

For the baking book title - Baking With Leftovers.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Where would the following be categorized--"Judicious use of a grain of salt?"
> 
> Sorry, it's a sinus headache day...


A high-blood-pressure cookbook? Feel better.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

.Hi everyone! I have just been watching CNN from way up here in Alberta- and they are talking about the scandal with the Department of Veteran's affairs - regarding the hidden lists of veterans that have not received even minimal care or first apptments with doctors -- and the fact that many Veterans have died from lack of care when they needed it. 

What are your thoughts on this ? I have not heard much about it until just this past week. It sounds as if this has been going on for years?
I am not sure exactly what the problem is although I know that CNN has been reporting about it for some time - Are they not getting doctors' attention and being completely ignored? I t also sounds as if it is pretty widespread.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Designer - There have been military cuts. Maybe the generals decided to sacrifice the odd soldier and use the money for weapons and wars. 

I am sort of concerned about the Nigerian girls. The US will be helping the Nigerians with intelligence. What is the right thing for the US to do? Are other countries also being asked to help?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Hi everyone! I have just been watching CNN from way up here in Alberta- and they are talking about the scandal with the Department of Veteran's affairs - regarding the hidden lists of veterans that have not received even minimal care or first apptments with doctors -- and the fact that many Veterans have died from lack of care when they needed it.
> 
> What are your thoughts on this. I have not heard much about it until just this past week. I would think it is going to cause the Government
> another big headache - I am not sure exactly what the problem is although I know that CNN has been reporting about it for some time - Are they not getting just doctors' attention and being completely ignored? It sounds that way. Designer1234


I've heard a bit about that. As I understand it, funding cuts have made it impossible to keep enough administrators on hand to handle all the veterans' paperwork. In the finest bureaucratic fashion, every veteran who needs help has to fill out reams of paperwork: an application just to get into the system--another to see a doctor--separate apps to get an appointment with a specialist, to get financial assistance, a psychiatric evaluation, and so on and so on.

It is pretty shocking. A few months back I read of some office that was so overwhelmed that the staff shoved hundreds of boxes of applications and other vital papers in the back rooms and forgot about them.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Designer - There have been military cuts. Maybe the generals decided to sacrifice the odd soldier and use the money for weapons and wars.
> 
> I am sort of concerned about the Nigerian girls. The US will be helping the Nigerians with intelligence. What is the right thing for the US to do? Are other countries also being asked to help?


It doesn't seemed to come from the Armed forces hierarchy- it is the Veteran's Affairs that are being accused of 'cooking the books'
about the number of Veterans who have received no required care but show that they are receiving care. Arizona and Texas VA hospitals are mentioned. I saw Anderson Cooper the other day with a section on it and forgot to ask if any of you know more about it. It was also mentioned on Canadian news. No one from VA are willing to answer questions about it. I worked for our Tax Department for 5 years and I do realize that Government agencies just about everywhere have unbelievable amounts of forms and paperwork. The programs I have seen talk about the problems but no one in VA will answer and explain the reasons - the one you mention (too much paperwork and over extended employees might be the reason). Not a very good excuse though it veterans are dying with lack of care from what the reporter checking on it for the past few weeks and months has stated.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> Designer - There have been military cuts. Maybe the generals decided to sacrifice the odd soldier and use the money for weapons and wars.
> 
> I am sort of concerned about the Nigerian girls. The US will be helping the Nigerians with intelligence. What is the right thing for the US to do? Are other countries also being asked to help?


Fortunately, yes. China, France, and Britain have also offered to help. I kind of feel like the US has just put its boot into a pool of bubbling quicksand by getting involved, but did we really have any choice? What happened (and is happening) to those poor girls is simply too horrible to ignore.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Hehe--maybe we lefties should publish our own cookbook! Can anyone think of a suitable title?


susanmos2000
Recipes for Bakers:
"The Upper Crust" . Any Takers?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> It doesn't seemed to come from the Armed forces hierarchy- it is the Veteran's Affairs that are being accused of 'cooking the books'
> about the number of Veterans who have received no required care but show that they are receiving care. Arizona and Texas VA hospitals are mentioned. I saw Anderson Cooper the other day with a section on it and forgot to ask if any of you know more about it. It was also mentioned on Canadian news. No one from VA are willing to answer questions about it. I worked for our Tax Department for 5 years and I do realize that Government agencies just about everywhere have unbelievable amounts of forms and paperwork. The programs I have seen talk about the problems but no one in VA will answer and explain the reasons - the one you mention (too much paperwork and over extended employees might be the reason). Not a very good excuse though it veterans are dying with lack of care from what the reporter checking on it for the past few weeks and months has stated.


Agree--it's no excuse at all. I'm not a huge fan of the military these days, but these men and women put their lives on the line for their country and deserve a lot better than they're getting. I read somewhere that the suicide rate for veterans averages 22 per day--there's no doubt in my mind that these folks aren't getting the medical and psychological help that they so desperately need.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> susanmos2000
> Recipes for Bakers:
> "The Upper Crust" . Any Takers?


Love it!

:thumbup:


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Fortunately, yes. China, France, and Britain have also offered to help. I kind of feel like the US has just put its boot into a pool of bubbling quicksand by getting involved, but did we really have any choice? What happened (and is happening) to those poor girls is simply too horrible to ignore.


susanmos2000
when it comes to such atrocities, we ALL MUST GET INVOLVED. What disturbs me is, that the media has kept this under wraps for all too long. I just hope that actions where in the process and no-one was supposed to report, just hoping.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Fortunately, yes. China, France, and Britain have also offered to help. I kind of feel like the US has just put its boot into a pool of bubbling quicksand by getting involved, but did we really have any choice? What happened (and is happening) to those poor girls is simply too horrible to ignore.


I understand the Canadian Government has also been asked to help. It sounds as if they have no idea whether the girls are still together or have been divided into groups and given to other small groups of the terrorists. I shudder to think about them. Today they said on the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) that the girls (over 200 who were first kidnapped were all trying to get an education and hoped to become teachers and nurses.) It was also stated today that a smaller group of girls had been kidnapped today. We heard on CBC that the leader who kidnapped them said they each of the first group would be sold to terrorist men as wives for $12.00 each -- horrifying. The world is not a happy place.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Agree--it's no excuse at all. I'm not a huge fan of the military these days, but these men and women put their lives on the line for their country and deserve a lot better than they're getting. I read somewhere that the suicide rate for veterans averages 22 per day--there's no doubt in my mind that these folks aren't getting the medical and psychological help that they so desperately need.


susanmos2000
I HATE War but will always support the Warriors, they have no choice and they keep us safe unless they are being USED FOR UNSAVORY purposes as Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld used them then
we may get into more danger. Let us never forget these Criminals who should be brought into Court.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> susanmos2000
> when it comes to such atrocities, we ALL MUST GET INVOLVED. What disturbs me is, that the media has kept this under wraps for all too long. I just hope that actions where in the process and no-one was supposed to report, just hoping.


One interesting development: the GOP is starting to rumble that Hillary Clinton is responsible for the girls being kidnapped because, as Secretary of State, she didn't officially list Boko Haram as a terrorist organization a few years back.

I'm waiting with bated breath to see how far the Republicans dare push this. It might prove to be a great mid-term election ploy, but also could backfire big time in their collective faces.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I understand the Canadian Government has also been asked to help. It sounds as if they have no idea whether the girls are still together or have been divided into groups and given to other small groups of the terrorists. I shudder to think about them. Today they said on the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) that the girls (over 200 who were first kidnapped were all trying to get an education and hoped to become teachers and nurses.) It was also stated today that a smaller group of girls had been kidnapped today. We heard on CBC that the leader who kidnapped them said they each of the first group would be sold to terrorist men as wives for $12.00 each -- horrifying. The world is not a happy place.


No, it isn't. It's awful too to consider the fact that, even if the girls are found, their lives are probably ruined. Apparently rape carries a huge stigma in that region--and it's not the perpetrators who are scorned but the victims. I really hope the countries offering to help rescue the girls are willing to pony up some hard cash as well. Those girls will need it--for counseling, medical treatment, to resume their education, to learn a trade, and yes even to make up a nice fat dowry. Whatever it takes for them to get their lives back on track I definitely support.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> .Hi everyone! I have just been watching CNN from way up here in Alberta- and they are talking about the scandal with the Department of Veteran's affairs - regarding the hidden lists of veterans that have not received even minimal care or first apptments with doctors -- and the fact that many Veterans have died from lack of care when they needed it.
> 
> What are your thoughts on this ? I have not heard much about it until just this past week. It sounds as if this has been going on for years?
> I am not sure exactly what the problem is although I know that CNN has been reporting about it for some time - Are they not getting doctors' attention and being completely ignored? I t also sounds as if it is pretty widespread.


It's a very distressing situation. Our soldiers went to war after being promised they'd be taken care of in many ways, and they've been ignored and forgotten. I'd hoped the situation would be better under Obama, but it obviously has simply gotten worse. This would have been a good way to create jobs - huge numbers of clerical workers would have made a difference - if anyone really wanted to, but apparently nobody does.

Instead the govt. is saving money on the backs of our veterans. Kind of disgusting.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> susanmos2000
> Recipes for Bakers:
> "The Upper Crust" . Any Takers?


The way I feel now, I'd give it the subtitle "Pie in the Sky." But it's a good one, Huck.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> No, it isn't. It's awful too to consider the fact that, even if the girls are found, their lives are probably ruined. Apparently rape carries a huge stigma in that region--and it's not the perpetrators who are scorned but the victims. I really hope the countries offering to help rescue the girls are willing to pony up some hard cash as well. Those girls will need it--for counseling, medical treatment, to resume their education, to learn a trade, and yes even to make up a nice fat dowry. Whatever it takes for them to get their lives back on track I definitely support.


I can't see any life back in their former homes, whatever supports they're given. They probably need to be resettled elsewhere, but I can't imagine where that would be. I don't even like thinking about this, because there seems to be no good solution.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

SQM said:


> For the baking book title - Baking With Leftovers.


More likely "Half-Baked," lol.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> The way I feel now, I'd give it the subtitle "Pie in the Sky." But it's a good one, Huck.


Too bab Rev. Ike isn't around to write the intro, huh?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

maysmom said:


> More likely "Half-Baked," lol.


I like "Baking with LEFTLOVERS " rather than leftovers???

All of the suggestions are good.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I like "Baking with LEFTLOVERS " rather than leftovers???
> 
> All of the suggestions are good.


yes, I like yours very much. Very funny title. Now we need to collect recipes. Do we cook here or is that only D and D?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> yes, I like yours very much. Very funny title. Now we need to collect recipes. Do we cook here or is that only D and D?


Baking only, here, she said hotly.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Baking only, here, she said hotly.


Hmm! Baking only. Should we start collecting recipes? Who will compile them? Not I said the sloth.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> yes, I like yours very much. Very funny title. Now we need to collect recipes. Do we cook here or is that only D and D?


Actually, Maid could take the lead in recipe department. I'm sure all of us cook, but she seems by far the best.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Actually, Maid could take the lead in recipe department. I'm sure all of us cook, but she seems by far the best.


I don't cook. I only prepare my meals or do the absolutely simplest - remember the I Hate to Cook Book?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> I don't cook. I only prepare my meals or do the absolutely simplest - remember the I Hate to Cook Book?


I dislike cooking, too. After 45 yrs of meal preparation, I'm just sick of it! I always say that if we could eat cookies for dinner every night, I'd be fine. Some of the ingredients could count for nutrition and chocolate is now a health food.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I like "Baking with LEFTLOVERS " rather than leftovers???
> 
> All of the suggestions are good.


Designer, your suggestion rocks!!
:-D


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> The way I feel now, I'd give it the subtitle "Pie in the Sky." But it's a good one, Huck.


Poor Purl
I like "Pie in the Sky".


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I like "Baking with LEFTLOVERS " rather than leftovers???
> 
> All of the suggestions are good.


Designer1234
"Baking wth Leftlovers" is fabulous,


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Poor Purl
> I like "Pie in the Sky".


"Pie in the Sky" can be one of the sections. Now to name the others...


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I I volunteer to send my Grandmother's recipe for 

Roastbeef and Yorkshire Pudding and gravy-- It is originally British or UK but Canadians use it as a standbye and it is really good. 

Also any of my other recipes . We eat very simply now after my dh had two heart valves replaced as well as Congestive heart failure, so I will send the recipes we used when the kids were growing up if that is acceptable. There are two ways of cooking Yorkshire Puddings -- I make mine in muffin tins and let them rise and keep a crust but the Brits usually use a pan and allow the yorkshire to fall so it is heavier. I shared it with the Knitting tea party just awhile ago. There are some absolutely wonderful recipes posted there by Sam (thewren) at the beginning of each week.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

maysmom said:


> "Pie in the Sky" can be one of the sections. Now to name the others...


Elegant Entrees to Share with the Cat


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Elegant Entrees to Share with the Cat


We could find nice names for the different sections, Pie in the sky could be desserts???


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> We could find nice names for the different sections, Pie in the sky could be desserts???


Perfect, Designer. The Yorkshire pudding sounds fantastic as well. That's something I've always wanted to try, but (like trifle) it seems very complicated.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Perfect, Designer. The Yorkshire pudding sounds fantastic as well. That's something I've always wanted to try, but (like trifle) it seems very complicated.


Isn't Yorkshire pudding dough the same as popovers? I make popovers every so often.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> Designer 1234 and myself have both given up on her entirely today. Nobody's home.


Add me to your list of those giving up on KIN, as she believes she can say anything she wants, but a response to her is an attack. I don't need the crap from her.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Isn't Yorkshire pudding dough the same as popovers? I make popovers every so often.


I've tried popovers once--no go there. Some baked goods are beyond me. I can make OK bread, but more delicate things like cinnamon rolls and pastries don't come out right.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I've tried popovers once--no go there. Some baked goods are beyond me. I can make OK bread, but more delicate things like cinnamon rolls and pastries don't come out right.


Try Mark Bittman's recipe. His recipes always work.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Isn't Yorkshire pudding dough the same as popovers? I make popovers every so often.


yes --= I make mine crusty like popovers but I believe the original yorkshire puddings are cooked in a pan and allowed to fall so that they are much heavier and cut up into squares or rectangles. My Grandmother made them the English way and so did Pat's Irish mother but we like them crispy and let them rise rather than fall-- I some times make two separate batches in the muffin tins and take one out of the oven so that they fall - and the others cook them so they are quite crisp and don't fall. I don't use a regular yorkshire popover pan - I use the muffin tins and always have. It is the way the pudding is mixed and kept in the fridge overnight and then dropped into hot fat that makes them so good.

We love it the next day cold with hot gravy and leftover beef and mashed potatoes. My kids' favorite meal.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I will watch for when we start to collect the recipes and make sure I send a couple of mine. I would offer to do them but just don't have time as the workshops keep me really busy and then the odd day or two on here and around the forum. I also visit on the tea party and we seem to have lots of appointments and different side trips too.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

NJG said:


> Add me to your list of those giving up on KIN, as she believes she can say anything she wants, but a response to her is an attack. I don't need the crap from her.


She is very "right wing' which she never did admit . -- I read back on her posts over there - I think she was trying to stir us up. At least she seems to have taken the hint.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I will watch for when we start to collect the recipes and make sure I send a couple of mine. I would offer to do them but just don't have time as the workshops keep me really busy and then the odd day or two on here and around the forum. I also visit on the tea party and we seem to have lots of appointments and different side trips too.


I have a few to add as well. A lot of the things I cook are pretty boring--meatloaf, spaghetti, mashed potatoes--but I have a wonderful recipe for _burek_. That's phyllo dough layered with a mixture of feta cheese and egg--definitely not for the cholesterol conscious!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I dislike cooking, too. After 45 yrs of meal preparation, I'm just sick of it! I always say that if we could eat cookies for dinner every night, I'd be fine. Some of the ingredients could count for nutrition and chocolate is now a health food.


Amen! Funny thing is I've begun to enjoy baking. I'd make an all-dessert dinner if the others weren't so PC.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> Add me to your list of those giving up on KIN, as she believes she can say anything she wants, but a response to her is an attack. I don't need the crap from her.


She certainly does believe she can say anything she wants. In fact, she has contradicted herself (though not in the same message; she's not that forgetful). I found her tiring to read because my head kept spinning.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Agree--it's no excuse at all. I'm not a huge fan of the military these days, but these men and women put their lives on the line for their country and deserve a lot better than they're getting. I read somewhere that the suicide rate for veterans averages 22 per day--there's no doubt in my mind that these folks aren't getting the medical and psychological help that they so desperately need.


And was any thought given to any of this before we went into Iraq? Of course not. Just one more thing to make me even more disgusted with Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld and Rice. This has been going on since the 90's and they didn't care. 
I will add that my 86 year old cousin who goes to the vets hosp in Iowa City, Iowa is receiving good care. I am assuming it is all the new pts because of Iraq and Afghanistan that are having the trouble. I too have read about the suicide rate and the ptsd that so many are having problems with. 
Here is a link to an article I recently read. 
http://nypost.com/2014/05/05/the-lying-and-dying-at-the-va/


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> susanmos2000
> I HATE War but will always support the Warriors, they have no choice and they keep us safe unless they are being USED FOR UNSAVORY purposes as Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld used them then
> we may get into more danger. Let us never forget these Criminals who should be brought into Court.


Yes, now the republicans have started a new investigation into Benghazi. The ACA kind of fell apart for them so they have to have something I guess. I sure wish the democrats had done lots of investigating during the Bush years like the repubs are doing now.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> One interesting development: the GOP is starting to rumble that Hillary Clinton is responsible for the girls being kidnapped because, as Secretary of State, she didn't officially list Boko Haram as a terrorist organization a few years back.
> 
> I'm waiting with bated breath to see how far the Republicans dare push this. It might prove to be a great mid-term election ploy, but also could backfire big time in their collective faces.


They are going to to try to turn anything they can into a scandal and anything they can do to damage Hillary, they will.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I like "Baking with LEFTLOVERS " rather than leftovers???
> 
> All of the suggestions are good.


Oh, I like that one.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> And was any thought given to any of this before we went into Iraq? Of course not. Just one more thing to make me even more disgusted with Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld and Rice. This has been going on since the 90's and they didn't care.
> I will add that my 86 year old cousin who goes to the vets hosp in Iowa City, Iowa is receiving good care. I am assuming it is all the new pts because of Iraq and Afghanistan that are having the trouble. I too have read about the suicide rate and the ptsd that so many are having problems with.
> Here is a link to an article I recently read.
> http://nypost.com/2014/05/05/the-lying-and-dying-at-the-va/


If you read that article to the end (or notice at the start who wrote it), the tone becomes very anti-Obama. The NY Post is owned by Rupert Murdoch, and the writer, Betsy McCaughey, is the inventor of the death panels, I think. The last few paragraphs show the viewpoint of the paper:



NY Post said:


> Dont believe the assurances of Veterans Affairs Secretary Eric Shinseki that his department will solve these problems. Look at the VAs recent announcement about another long wait list, this one for disability claims  where President Obama, in his State of the Union Address in January, pledged that slashing the backlog would be a top priority.
> The VA announced March 31 that it had cut the disability-claims backlog by 44 percent, from 600,000 to 400,000. But outraged vets say it did that by simply denying many of those applications, moving them into the appeals pile. Dont count on more truthfulness when it comes to medical wait times.
> People in Canada and Britain are all too familiar with long waits for medical care in a government-run system. Their governments publish yearly reports on how long they have to wait to see a doctor, and politicians run for cover when waits grow longer. *But most Americans who cant get a timely appointment with one doctor or hospital have the freedom to call another.
> Sadly, veterans are captives of the VA system, enduring the shortcomings of a single-payer system. Its time to give our vets other options.*
> Betsy McCaughey is author of Beating ObamaCare 2014.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I've tried popovers once--no go there. Some baked goods are beyond me. I can make OK bread, but more delicate things like cinnamon rolls and pastries don't come out right.


I have a bread machine that I use now so there is less work. I think the extra years have made me realize that if there is an easier quicker way and it tastes good, I use it. I like making pecan rolls, putting them in the fridge over night and baking in the morning.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Poor Purl wrote: If you read that article to the end (or notice at the start who wrote it), the tone becomes very anti-Obama. The NY Post is owned by Rupert Murdoch, and the writer, Betsy McCaughey, is the inventor of the death panels, I think. The last few paragraphs show the viewpoint of the paper:


No I think it was Sarah Palin that started the death panels crap.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Welcome to the club.



NJG said:


> Add me to your list of those giving up on KIN, as she believes she can say anything she wants, but a response to her is an attack. I don't need the crap from her.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think politically inspired investigations should be paid for by the political party instigating it. And I also think that any Dem stupid enough to join with 5 GOP and 3 other Dems on Benghazi committee should have their heads examined and the results published. Waste of time and money.



NJG said:


> Yes, now the republicans have started a new investigation into Benghazi. The ACA kind of fell apart for them so they have to have something I guess. I sure wish the democrats had done lots of investigating during the Bush years like the repubs are doing now.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And she knows it. If she wants to get down & dirty and win if she wishes.....or she could stay home, wear sweats and enjoy being a grandma. Best of luck to her either way.



NJG said:


> They are going to to try to turn anything they can into a scandal and anything they can do to damage Hillary, they will.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> I think politically inspired investigations should be paid for by the political party instigating it. And I also think that any Dem stupid enough to join with 5 GOP and 3 other Dems on Benghazi committee should have their heads examined and the results published. Waste of time and money.


Another hearing is certainly not what I want to hear about, but I think it must be bipartisan. No matter how much they hate it, the democrats have to be part of it. Someone has to make sure the correct information is put out there. The right tells nothing but lies when given free will.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> Poor Purl wrote: If you read that article to the end (or notice at the start who wrote it), the tone becomes very anti-Obama. The NY Post is owned by Rupert Murdoch, and the writer, Betsy McCaughey, is the inventor of the death panels, I think. The last few paragraphs show the viewpoint of the paper:
> 
> No I think it was Sarah Palin that started the death panels crap.


Maybe. McCaughey simply hyped every lie that was told about the ACA.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

SQM said:


> Elegant Entrees to Share with the Cat


Sp long as the cat isn't one of the entrees--- :twisted:


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Again, the curse of time difference has got me. I wanted to contribute to the Yorkshire pudding bit, but may I just be the commie chef?


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I I volunteer to send my Grandmother's recipe for
> 
> Roastbeef and Yorkshire Pudding and gravy-- It is originally British or UK but Canadians use it as a standbye and it is really good.
> 
> Also any of my other recipes . We eat very simply now after my dh had two heart valves replaced as well as Congestive heart failure, so I will send the recipes we used when the kids were growing up if that is acceptable. There are two ways of cooking Yorkshire Puddings -- I make mine in muffin tins and let them rise and keep a crust but the Brits usually use a pan and allow the yorkshire to fall so it is heavier. I shared it with the Knitting tea party just awhile ago. There are some absolutely wonderful recipes posted there by Sam (thewren) at the beginning of each week.


I like making Yorkshire Pudding in muffin tins, too. Also I make them with corn flour to go with roasted chicken as an alternative to cornbread. They're also really good for breakfast as an alternative to pancakes. It's sort of like making popovers or mini-dutch babies


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Ooops. Double post...


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I like making Yorkshire Pudding in muffin tins, too. Also I make them with corn flour to go with roasted chicken as an alternative to cornbread. They're also really good for breakfast as an alternative to pancakes. It's sort of like making popovers or mini-dutch babies


What are mini-dutch babies? Should this be over in the War on Women thread?


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> What are mini-dutch babies? Should this be over in the War on Women thread?


Dutch babies are like a large, eggy popover baked in the oven. Maybe it's time to start that new recipe topic...


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> Welcome to the club.


The question remains -would you want to be spoken of similarly on D and D if you posted your belief? We are not that uncertain in our stance that we cannot hear from the other side, are we?

These last few posts re: Neb. sound just like the stuff they said about me and I did not even open my mouth there.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> The question remains -would you want to be spoken of similarly on D and D if you posted your belief? We are not that uncertain in our stance that we cannot hear from the other side, are we?
> 
> These last few posts re: Neb. sound just like the stuff they said about me and I did not even open my mouth there.


Well, Neb certainly opened her mouth here, and the earlier things said about her were complimentary. Did that happen to you over there?

Anyway, I have no comments to make about cream cheese.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Well, Neb certainly opened her mouth here, and the earlier things said about her were complimentary. Did that happen to you over there?
> 
> Anyway, I have no comments to make about cream cheese.


Not to the point, PP. If we badmouth women because they disagree with us, then are we any different from the difficult women on D and D? Yes, Neb. defended me against the diaper set.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Not to the point, PP. If we badmouth women because they disagree with us, then are we any different from the difficult women on D and D? Yes, Neb. defended me against the diaper set.


In fact, she didn't actually disagree with me; when I argued against one of her positions, she agreed with me, but without changing her position. We "badmouthed" her because of the way she pushed her opinions, not because of what they were. This indeed makes us different from the D&D people.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> In fact, she didn't actually disagree with me; when I argued against one of her positions, she agreed with me, but without changing her position. We "badmouthed" her because of the way she pushed her opinions, not because of what they were. This indeed makes us different from the D&D people.


Since we write to each other there is no give or take like in a real conversation. She is firm in her thoughts as we all are. Who isn't pushing their opinions here? My writing this is pushing my opinion. I just hate to see that we are looking like D and D.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Since we write to each other there is no give or take like in a real conversation. She is firm in her thoughts as we all are. Who isn't pushing their opinions here? My writing this is pushing my opinion. I just hate to see that we are looking like D and D.


She hung around here much longer than any of us would have been permitted to stay on D&D, and we took her seriously until she became condescending and repetitious.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

War on diets?



Poor Purl said:


> What are mini-dutch babies? Should this be over in the War on Women thread?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's the fact that there are boring lies on their side. I don't care in the slightest if anyone doesn't like me. I don't pronounce my BELIEFS as fact and insult others. There is no debate. No one is changing their mind. I'm not wasting my breath.



SQM said:


> The question remains -would you want to be spoken of similarly on D and D if you posted your belief? We are not that uncertain in our stance that we cannot hear from the other side, are we?
> 
> These last few posts re: Neb. sound just like the stuff they said about me and I did not even open my mouth there.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm not going to sit here wasting time while someone is being rude to me. It's my line in the sand.



SQM said:


> The question remains -would you want to be spoken of similarly on D and D if you posted your belief? We are not that uncertain in our stance that we cannot hear from the other side, are we?
> 
> These last few posts re: Neb. sound just like the stuff they said about me and I did not even open my mouth there.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Neb is your problem, not ours.



SQM said:


> Not to the point, PP. If we badmouth women because they disagree with us, then are we any different from the difficult women on D and D? Yes, Neb. defended me against the diaper set.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sticks and stones.



SQM said:


> Since we write to each other there is no give or take like in a real conversation. She is firm in her thoughts as we all are. Who isn't pushing their opinions here? My writing this is pushing my opinion. I just hate to see that we are looking like D and D.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> Since we write to each other there is no give or take like in a real conversation. She is firm in her thoughts as we all are. Who isn't pushing their opinions here? My writing this is pushing my opinion. I just hate to see that we are looking like D and D.


I honestly don't see what all the fuss over Nebraska is. She's just fine over on the Armageddon thread, and we've had some interesting chats. Yes, we disagree about 99.99% of the time, but who cares? Maybe she just wasn't comfortable in the LOLL thread and got testy.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> War on diets?


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> One swallow does not spring make. Yes you have given an example of some of your extended family members but this does not hold true for all society. I warrant that there are many more positive examples than your negative example. Also ' As the old saying goes: hard work never killed anybody.' Tell that to the miners who toiled hard down the pit all their lives only to die just as they reached retirement age. Tell that to the poor of this world who work themselves into an early grave. Hard work over a lifetime takes its toll on the body, causing numerous aches and pains in the retirement age. I have found that the people who say ' hard work never killed anybody.' are generally people who work in the 'soft' industries, sitting at a desk, selling items. Tiring work, yes, but not physically demanding the way really hard work is.
> 
> I find your comments extremely demeaning to the poor and less fortunate of this world, people who only have their labour to offer, who earn their daily bread by the sweat of their brow. Stop being so damming of people who are not as intellectually inclined as you are, people who are less able to raise their station in life.
> 
> Remember the old saying 'the meek shall inherit the earth'. Not the greedy, not the intellectual, not the rich, not even the 'financially comfortable', but the meek.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> She hung around here much longer than any of us would have been permitted to stay on D&D, and we took her seriously until she became condescending and repetitious.


I cancelled my post . One thing -- I think in some ways she was sincere -- I just couldn't and never could agree with a lot of what she stated as fact. I also don't care to be scolded because I don't agree. I wish her well, but it doesn't change the fact that I don't agree and really found her posts were just tooo dramatic and so completely unwilling to discuss any differences of opinion. She said she was but her posts certainly didn't give me that feeling.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'm not going to sit here wasting time while someone is being rude to me. It's my line in the sand.


That is what I found I felt too-- I never pretended to agree with most of the things she said and I tried not to get angry and insult her. I did however decide I wasn't going there any more So did some others. I never told her to leave but didn't plan on carrying on an argument with her. I think she is much more at home over there -- as she obviously enjoys it there much more than here. Most things she says will be accepted there - so I think she might be better off .


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I was very tempted to join the protesters at the SiliconValley WalMart where President Obama spoke. It seems to me that there must have been a better site to applaud commercial use of solar energy. Of course, there is that matter of Solyndra, the much-touted place that went belly-up. He needs some advice on his choice of places to appear.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_25732383/morality-clause-oakland-catholic-school-teachers-wrong-parents

Teachers working in Catholic schools now required to sign contract with morality clause, dictating they abide by catholic teachings and doctrine in professional and private lives. Tolerance?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Need a good laugh?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> In fact, she didn't actually disagree with me; when I argued against one of her positions, she agreed with me, but without changing her position. We "badmouthed" her because of the way she pushed her opinions, not because of what they were. This indeed makes us different from the D&D people.


 :thumbup:

I agree - it was the attitude more than the ideas, although I didn't agree with most of what she said. If she had been a bit more polite it might have made for conversation.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

[SQM]Need a good laugh?






You have to remove that s that is after http

Thanks for the link, that was so funny


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> Need a good laugh?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> [SQM]Need a good laugh?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: Thanks, I am still laughing.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Need a good laugh?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

oops! double post -- sorry!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

*Happy Mothers' Day to you all*! Wherever you are! Here is my wish for you. I hope you are able to share this day with your families.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Designer, that's gorgeous.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Thanks. It was great.


Wonderful! So funny!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> *Happy Mothers' Day to you all*! Wherever you are! Here is my wish for you. I hope you are able to share this day with your families.


What a beautiful sight to wake up to. Happy Mothers' Day.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Woke up to a gorgeous day. Spoke to my precious daughter. All I need for a good Mother's Day.

Hope each of you has a lovely loving day.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> *Happy Mothers' Day to you all*! Wherever you are! Here is my wish for you. I hope you are able to share this day with your families.


I love the colours in this picture, thanks for posting.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> *Happy Mothers' Day to you all*! Wherever you are! Here is my wish for you. I hope you are able to share this day with your families.


The contrasting colors remind me of a stained glass window. It's beautiful, Designer.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I have just left the other thread and I feel a bit sick. I am going to keep on dropping by this thread but hope to have the fortitude to avoid the other one. After the posts this morning I just don't want to deal with them (mainly 'her') any more. 

I have just been back for a little while and these posts really sickened me. I don't understand why there is no limit - Jane went way over the top and her posts brought back some of the most dreadful times of my life . Nothing to do with abortion, but 3 late term miscarriages and a sids death. Anyway I expect they will be thrown in my face down the road as she has no limits. She uses information like a club-- then we react and on and on. I don't care what others have said in the past on either side -- we are responsible for what we each say and there is no possible way she should feel it is Christian or decent to say what she said on Mothers day to one of us (any other day either).

I will try to stay away from them once again as I find I just can't and don't want to become the person who answers her vicious posts back. 

I don't like myself when I am nasty and I find this is the place where I say things in reply to their posts that are nasty. 

I will drop by here and I wish you all well. Each of us is different -- I just hope that they don't make headway as it is scary for North America and the rest of the world if they do. The mess from Bush is no better, how can it be? 

See you later, here.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Happy Mother's Day to everyone, I hope you are able to enjoy your day with your families.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I have just left the other thread and I feel a bit sick. I am going to keep on dropping by this thread but hope to have the fortitude to avoid the other one. After the posts this morning I just don't want to deal with them (mainly 'her') any more.
> 
> I have just been back for a little while and these posts really sickened me. I don't understand why there is no limit - Jane went way over the top and her posts brought back some of the most dreadful times of my life . Nothing to do with abortion, but 3 late term miscarriages and a sids death. Anyway I expect they will be thrown in my face down the road as she has no limits. She uses information like a club-- then we react and on and on. I don't care what others have said in the past on either side -- we are responsible for what we each say and there is no possible way she should feel it is Christian or decent to say what she said on Mothers day to one of us (any other day either).
> 
> ...


I hope you realize how many of us respect and care about you. Please feel enveloped in our care.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I have just left the other thread and I feel a bit sick. I am going to keep on dropping by this thread but hope to have the fortitude to avoid the other one. After the posts this morning I just don't want to deal with them (mainly 'her') any more.
> 
> I have just been back for a little while and these posts really sickened me. I don't understand why there is no limit - Jane went way over the top and her posts brought back some of the most dreadful times of my life . Nothing to do with abortion, but 3 late term miscarriages and a sids death. Anyway I expect they will be thrown in my face down the road as she has no limits. She uses information like a club-- then we react and on and on. I don't care what others have said in the past on either side -- we are responsible for what we each say and there is no possible way she should feel it is Christian or decent to say what she said on Mothers day to one of us (any other day either).
> 
> ...


Courage, stand firm by your beliefs. You have many friends here who value your insights as well as your artistic talents. Many here will support you and send you virtual hugs as they understand where you are coming from. So many of us are glad you post and love reading what you have to say. Stand firm in the face of adversity.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Happy Mother's Day to everyone, I hope you are able to enjoy your day with your families.


The same to you, Cindy.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> I hope you realize how many of us respect and care about you. Please feel enveloped in our care.


What a wonderful way to put it, Marilyn. I feel as you do about Designer.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> What a wonderful way to put it, Marilyn. I feel as you do about Designer.


I didn't last very long -- however I had my say and hopefully will do what I say I am going to do. I appreciate your kind words. I have a problem with the nastiness - some on both sides but mostly one or two bullies - and find I allow myself to get involved because I get so frustrated as do we all. I just don't agree way down deep that nastiness solves anything -- However, I do understand where the Liberal leaning people are coming from and agree wholeheartedly -- I just find the blind nastiness hard to keep from answering.

I have made friends here and will try to stay here! grin.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I didn't last very long -- however I had my say and hopefully will do what I say I am going to do. I appreciate your kind words. I have a problem with the nastiness - some on both sides but mostly one or two bullies - and find I allow myself to get involved because I get so frustrated as do we all. I just don't agree way down deep that nastiness solves anything -- However, I do understand where the Liberal leaning people are coming from and agree wholeheartedly -- I just find the blind nastiness hard to keep from answering.
> 
> I have made friends here and will try to stay here! grin.


Oh don't you dare go away, we all appreciate your insightful comments, your compassion and your artistic talents. Happy Mother's Day!!!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Oh don't you dare go away, we all appreciate your insightful comments, your compassion and your artistic talents. Happy Mother's Day!!!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :lol:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I feel the same way but no where feels like home to me. Such loneliness missing dear friends.



Designer1234 said:


> I have just left the other thread and I feel a bit sick. I am going to keep on dropping by this thread but hope to have the fortitude to avoid the other one. After the posts this morning I just don't want to deal with them (mainly 'her') any more.
> 
> I have just been back for a little while and these posts really sickened me. I don't understand why there is no limit - Jane went way over the top and her posts brought back some of the most dreadful times of my life . Nothing to do with abortion, but 3 late term miscarriages and a sids death. Anyway I expect they will be thrown in my face down the road as she has no limits. She uses information like a club-- then we react and on and on. I don't care what others have said in the past on either side -- we are responsible for what we each say and there is no possible way she should feel it is Christian or decent to say what she said on Mothers day to one of us (any other day either).
> 
> ...


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I didn't last very long -- however I had my say and hopefully will do what I say I am going to do. I appreciate your kind words. I have a problem with the nastiness - some on both sides but mostly one or two bullies - and find I allow myself to get involved because I get so frustrated as do we all. I just don't agree way down deep that nastiness solves anything -- However, I do understand where the Liberal leaning people are coming from and agree wholeheartedly -- *I just find the blind nastiness hard to keep from answering.*
> 
> I have made friends here and will try to stay here! grin.


Please stay here. When there's nastiness here, at least there's a focus for it. You're right about the "blind nastiness"; it gives the impression of a temper tantrum from a 3-year-old, kicking out blindly at everyone who won't give him what he wants.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I feel the same way but no where feels like home to me. Such loneliness missing dear friends.


This sounds very sad. I hope it's temporary. You love your home, your birds, the warm sun. We've all lost friends and family, so we can commiserate with you, but I hope tomorrow you're back to your old funny self. Not that old, mind you, but certainly funny.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

I just started a new thread called Working Mother's Day, with a piece by Elizabeth Warren.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I didn't last very long -- however I had my say and hopefully will do what I say I am going to do. I appreciate your kind words. I have a problem with the nastiness - some on both sides but mostly one or two bullies - and find I allow myself to get involved because I get so frustrated as do we all. I just don't agree way down deep that nastiness solves anything -- However, I do understand where the Liberal leaning people are coming from and agree wholeheartedly -- I just find the blind nastiness hard to keep from answering.
> 
> I have made friends here and will try to stay here! grin.


Dear Designer,

It is indeed difficult to contain oneself when certain people say outrageously insulting and unpleasant things. They are like the mean girls in junior high school, saying horrible things about people and then going all self righteous when they get a response in kind. Perhaps they watched "Heathers" and "Mean Girls" too many times.

When I was teaching, of course I stayed professional in dealing with children like that. But calling in their mothers to discuss the children's behavior was too often a lesson in futility. The children came by their nastiness naturally, probably watching the mommies in action. It is probably the same copycat behavior as the children of abusers becoming abusers themselves as adults.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I always snap out of it. This is just such a nice place to find new friends and work on knitting skills. I have to find a way to ignore the a......s.



Poor Purl said:


> This sounds very sad. I hope it's temporary. You love your home, your birds, the warm sun. We've all lost friends and family, so we can commiserate with you, but I hope tomorrow you're back to your old funny self. Not that old, mind you, but certainly funny.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I always snap out of it. This is just such a nice place to find new friends and work on knitting skills. I have to find a way to ignore the a......s.


We all have to figure out how to ignore them. Not easy.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> We all have to figure out how to ignore them. Not easy.


I find that the only thing that works for me is to get away from it for awhile.. Life gets into perspective then.

I am ready for another break. I am not as personally involved as the rest of you - but it still sometimes keeps me awake at night.

It is hard to stay away -

A lot of people have fallen by the wayside -- but it is also hard as I keep getting drawn in -- not with the politics as I don't know as much about the people being quoted and the details, but I am drawn in by the facts of what I believe is right an what I believe is wrong. I am a Liberal - will always be a liberal - but mainly because I feel that God does not want us to judge, he wants us to care about others.

My beliefs are strong and the nastier the activities around these threads the more I feel I must stand up for what is right - even though I know it is useless and will be twisted.

I find the blind joining together with no original thought scary though. I also find the way they all agree with each other exactlly -- no one questions -- they are right and everyone else in the world is wrong. No individual thought no one ever discusses anything but us - how terrible we are and how we are each and everyone deserve to be treated like enemies. There are some on this side of the spectrum who feel the same -- I admit I am liberal in my thoughts but I am not on the same page as others are and have been on this group. I question everything too much. However I know that those who 'fight ' for their beliefs really believe in what they fight for-- They have read, and studied, and seen what blind bigotry can do to others.

I like the support we give each other but not blind support like the other thread- they believe they are perfect -- I don't believe any one is perfect -- We do the best we can. They believe that their nasty dreadful posts are approved by God but then they say they live by God's word. That is where they lose me.

--I wonder if any of them ever go home and think at night that there are some small portion of their statements and thoughts that they disagree with. I have seens so little of that and those who were middle ground and sometimes could see both sides are slowly becoming more and more 'right' and everyone else is wrong or evil.

Nebraska tried and I will give her that -- I know she is on the right but she tried, and I didn't help by cutting her off -- the problem was, she didn't ask us - how do you really feel about this -- she stated her opinions and was hurt when we couldn't agree --I regret I wasn't kinder to her. I allowed her replies to irritate me and so I turned her off - which was a shame. Somethings I completely and absolutely disagreed with -- If we had been able to have a conversation about it where both sides could discuss it would have been better. Partly my fault that we couldn't. I just couldn't agree with her statements. 
After all the different 'quotes' posted here over the years -- I have little faith in any of the 'quotes ' and rarely read them- there is Propaganda on both sides in my opinion. Certainly I don't believe 99% of what is printed oh the right because I don't agree with the basic premise or the fact that they only read what is written to agree with what they accept. I guess we all do that but I do believe we are much more open to different ideas - that is my opinion. I watch different things - read different things, not just the opinions that I believe- although rarely does anyone change my feelings as I have been around for a long long time and started developing my opinions in World War II -- They have changed and shifted over the years in some ways but not in my main beliefs.

We have to find other ways to avoid the nastiness. However, I know it isn't going to happen. I honestly don't have a problem with their beliefs but I have a problem with their lack of compassion -- which seems to be getting more and more solidified. The fact that they are deeply religious (at least some are very much so) but it makes me question - how can they not have compassion for those who are hurting, and poor and have terrible things happen in their lives. A few of them have compassion in my opinion - I mean they really care about others -but less and less as these threads carry on.They are influenced by the strong ones - who are never wrong. None of us are never wrong -- at least I sure as heck know I am wrong sometimes. That is what is so hard to deal with. They are right - everyone is exactly the same in thought and they are right.

I was raised a Baptist by a wonderful Grandmother who though she was part of my life until she died - never once to my knowledge doubted that everyone else in the world was God's child - and that do unto others -- and 'There but for the Grace go I" were the main parts of her Christianity. 
'Love one another" was the basic premise of her life, and she influenced me my whole life and still does.

The hypocritical people who talked like Christians but didn't live like Christians drove me away from the Church. I have found more people who are not necessarily Christians but have more kindness and understanding than many very devout Christians who attend Church every Sunday. -- I don't believe that their blind faith is what God wants if they don't have compassion.

Dame -- I understand - I feel the same as you do -- sad -- I also wonder what the future holds as they are not going to change - and our questioning and feelings are not going to change.

Anyway there are my feelings about this whole thing. I don't like it being implied that because I don't believe everything they believe that I am not a person who God loves-- They have stated that -- I don't believe it. I have tried to live a good life, caring about people. It doesn't matter to me who you are - it matters to me if you have compassion and you live your life trying to do good and be kind and treat people with respect. I have to leave here every once in awhile because I get drawn in and lose my compassion for them. Maybe it would be good if we all, on both sides, took time outs- to become part of the real world, instead of these two little spaces we fill where both sides are right and both sides are wrong and where we treat each other dreadfully.

I keep being drawn back here- because I do care about what is happening - and once I thought my view of life could help make a difference here. I know now that was not true-- No one wants a peacemaker or someone who tries to sort out the differences -- It isn't going to happen. So I wonder why do we carry on? would we not be better to get back in the real world and let them say and believe what they are going to say and believe anyway- They are not going to change -- nothing has changed for 6 years -- I have never really given up on something -- but I realize after what is happening there that the few that love to hurt- and insult - are never going to change - and the others are becoming more and more like the few. 
That is their choice.

It is also our choice -- we still have the moderates, and we have those who fight f and that is okay -- but would we not solve the problems by leaving them to their own devices? I don't know whether I can - but i do know I believe I should. What do we gain by fighting over and over and over. Just my thoughts. Sorry for the book.

I would love to see us all leave these threads and live life again. Join in the main forum, learn things - fight our battles in other places -- but I would never say that it is the only way. But to me this way isn't accomplishing anything. If we were gone who would they fight with? We would win the battle. Jmo= I am not promising I can do that - but I could if we all could.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Designer, your words are spot on. Thank you for all your posts and I look forward to reading more, on all subjects.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Designer, your words are spot on. Thank you for all your posts and I look forward to reading more, on all subjects.


Thankyou --- I think we lose our perspective if we never leave here. I find I am refreshed and more aware if I go away. Others have said I run away -- I believe -- I run toward real life. But not everyone feels that way.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> <snip>
> I find the blind joining together with no original thought scary though. I also find the way they all agree with each other exactlly -- no one questions -- they are right and everyone else in the world is wrong. No individual thought no one ever discusses anything but us - how terrible we are and how we are each and everyone deserve to be treated like enemies. There are some on this side of the spectrum who feel the same -- I admit I am liberal in my thoughts but I am not on the same page as others are and have been on this group. I question everything too much. However I know that those who 'fight ' for their beliefs really believe in what they fight for-- They have read, and studied, and seen what blind bigotry can do to others.
> 
> I like the support we give each other but not blind support like the other thread- they believe they are perfect -- I don't believe any one is perfect -- We do the best we can. They believe that their nasty dreadful posts are approved by God but then they say they live by God's word. That is where they lose me.
> ...


Designer, I apologize for cutting your message to shreds, but it was the only way I could think of to respond to you. You touch on several important issues.

Before I went to bed last night, a message appeared on War on Women from mojave, who is a marine scientist of some kind and travels a lot in her work and is up to date on a lot of the scientific literature. You can see her message here: http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-255828-92.html#5339405

What I understood was that she got on Denim & Pearls and tried to explain the science behind global climate change and was essentially laughed at because _they_ know better. So it's not just people like you who have trouble dealing with them; trained scientists are treated as ignoramuses by the willfully ignorant.

I won't go on with what I was planning to say because it's nothing new. I think you've been wonderfully patient and civil with people who are often very primitive in their treatment of others (Janeway and KPG lead the pack). But it bothers me to think of leaving some of those threads entirely to the righties. They lie, they present false statistics, they blame the President for things he couldn't possibly have done - and without us to point out their lies, they will be believed, at least by the low-information readers. This won't make a difference on the subject of abortion, so I think I will just leave them to it, but on Obamacare it can be dangerous because people who might benefit may choose not to follow up on it.

You're right that they're not going to change, but I have no desire to change them, only to counteract their damage. It might be a good idea simply to present information without being snippy. I can try that, though I won't promise to be consistent. I, too, am sorry about Nebraska, because though she is very insistent, she has at least opened herself to other opinions. I think she just picked the wrong thread - this one, LOLL - when she would have had a larger audience if she had started one of her own. (She hasn't ever started her own thread on KP.)

I hope you keep returning to this thread, because I think we all learn from what you have to say and enjoy your company. We all need to remind ourselves, as well, that this is not real life; it's "only" knitting.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Designer, I apologize for cutting your message to shreds, but it was the only way I could think of to respond to you. You touch on several important issues.
> 
> Before I went to bed last night, a message appeared on War on Women from mojave, who is a marine scientist of some kind and travels a lot in her work and is up to date on a lot of the scientific literature. You can see her message here: http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-255828-92.html#5339405
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying -- but I don't think anything we say will ever be listened to. I feel that when we reply negatively to anything they say ( which by the way you rarely do) it just infuriates them and they get even nastier. I guess we have to do what we have to do.

I do think that it is good for us to go out on the main forums and live life - rather than become so involved here that we lose sight of our own selves. I certainly am aware that people don't all agree with me and I would worry if they did - so it is something I felt might give people some thought. I do know that if I stay here too long I become more and more close minded and am wanting to 'fight' If it worked that would be okay - but it just takes me and others to a different level which is not in my opiniion only, gaining anything. I should put my money where my mouth is ,but I find I can't. That speaks on how well I manage to do what I feel I should do.

YOu are someone who keeps their cool and I admire you. At least I have expressed my truth and beliefs.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Thankyou --- I think we lose our perspective if we never leave here. I find I am refreshed and more aware if I go away. Others have said I run away -- I believe -- I run toward real life. But not everyone feels that way.


Staying off an online forum is not running away. Especially when some posters (and we know who they are) just live for the opportunity to put down anyone daring to disagree. Oh well, c'est la vie. Have a great day--yesterday we enjoyed super nice weather and today is the same. Time to get into the backyard and get the lawn swing ready for conversation, lemonade, and knitting---


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Very insightful post Shirley. I usually don't even go to the other forums anymore, unless someone on here makes a comment about something that was said on one of them. You accomplish nothing by going to them. Nebraska takes every opportunity to tell us how wrong we are, but when I comment on something she said, then I am attacking her so I just won't waste my time any more.
What worries me about what is going on in our country right now is if the republicans gain control of the senate they will impeach President Obama and that will be so bad for our country. There is so much hate coming from the right. We all lived through the Bush years and the democrats didn't treat the republicans that way, and believe me there was just cause for it. They deny being racists, but the hate started before President Obama was even sworn in, so they can't deny it. He hadn't done anything yet for them to hate, so how else can it be explained. I will start to work for the DNC here shortly-have some family things first-cause that is the only thing I feel I can do. Sitting home and ignoring it is no longer an option. My republican son in law has now become a libertarian. He has been a die hard republican for so long that I see that as a positive, at least moving away from the haters.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

NJG said:


> Very insightful post Shirley. I usually don't even go to the other forums anymore, unless someone on here makes a comment about something that was said on one of them. You accomplish nothing by going to them. Nebraska takes every opportunity to tell us how wrong we are, but when I comment on something she said, then I am attacking her so I just won't waste my time any more.
> What worries me about what is going on in our country right now is if the republicans gain control of the senate they will impeach President Obama and that will be so bad for our country. There is so much hate coming from the right. We all lived through the Bush years and the democrats didn't treat the republicans that way, and believe me there was just cause for it. They deny being racists, but the hate started before President Obama was even sworn in, so they can't deny it. He hadn't done anything yet for them to hate, so how else can it be explained. I will start to work for the DNC here shortly-have some family things first-cause that is the only thing I feel I can do. Sitting home and ignoring it is no longer an option. My republican son in law has now become a libertarian. He has been a die hard republican for so long that I see that as a positive, at least moving away from the haters.


I applaud you for taking action and putting yourself out there. I hope that if I lived in the States I would do the same thing. I doubt I am much help being a Canadian -- I think that is a much more productive way of fighting their close minded hatred. I agree l00% with your opinion that it started an continues to be a huge part of the hate for him. I watched a woman on a news show - who says that those who are racist don't admit they are because they don't believe their feelings are racist - they can't allow themselves to believe it as then they would have to admit that they don't like him - not because he isn't smart , but because they feel he is overstepping as they don't believe any Black is equal to a white - and pass those feelings on.. They were talking about Sterling -- who swears he isn't a racist - even though he is still spouting racism all over the place.

It is sad . My hats off to you and I hope you win. That is the way, in my opinion, in your own area and State.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I applaud you for taking action and putting yourself out there. I hope that if I lived in the States I would do the same thing. I doubt I am much help being a Canadian -- I think that is a much more productive way of fighting their close minded hatred. I agree l00% with your opinion that it started an continues to be a huge part of the hate for him. I watched a woman on a news show - who says that those who are racist don't admit they are because they don't believe their feelings are racist - they can't allow themselves to believe it as then they would have to admit that they don't like him - not because he isn't smart , but because they feel he is overstepping as they don't believe any Black is equal to a white - and pass those feelings on.. They were talking about Sterling -- who swears he isn't a racist - even though he is still spouting racism all over the place.
> 
> It is sad . My hats off to you and I hope you win. That is the way, in my opinion, in your own area and State.


Yes Sterling was on again proclaiming to not be a racist. But with him, it isn't just this one incident. That is the way he has lived his life. In 2009, Sterling agreed to a $2.765-million settlement in a case that alleged discrimination against African Americans, Latinos and others at apartment buildings he owned in Los Angeles County.

Another federal lawsuit filed in 2003 by the Housing Rights Center and 19 tenants accused Sterling of once stating his preference not to rent to Latinos because Hispanics smoke, drink and just hang around the building. The lawsuit also accused him of saying black tenants smell and attract vermin.
The allegations included Sterlings properties not renting to non-Koreans in Koreatown or African Americans in Beverly Hills.
According to the lawsuit, Sterling believed Korean-American tenants will live in whatever conditions he gives them and still pay the rent without complaint. That was a confidential settlement, and Sterling paid almost $5 million in attorneys fees to the plaintiffs. I think he has been a jerk his whole life. It makes a difference when he is heard saying it on tape.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

NJG said:


> Yes Sterling was on again proclaiming to not be a racist. But with him, it isn't just this one incident. That is the way he has lived his life. In 2009, Sterling agreed to a $2.765-million settlement in a case that alleged discrimination against African Americans, Latinos and others at apartment buildings he owned in Los Angeles County.
> 
> Another federal lawsuit filed in 2003 by the Housing Rights Center and 19 tenants accused Sterling of once stating his preference not to rent to Latinos because Hispanics smoke, drink and just hang around the building. The lawsuit also accused him of saying black tenants smell and attract vermin.
> The allegations included Sterlings properties not renting to non-Koreans in Koreatown or African Americans in Beverly Hills.
> According to the lawsuit, Sterling believed Korean-American tenants will live in whatever conditions he gives them and still pay the rent without complaint. That was a confidential settlement, and Sterling paid almost $5 million in attorneys fees to the plaintiffs. I think he has been a jerk his whole life. It makes a difference when he is heard saying it on tape.


Heard that on CNN this morning. How entertaining to listen to him whine that he "didn't do anything wrong"! What a baby--I'm sure we'll witness a perfect shower of crocodile tears tomorrow.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I understand what you are saying -- but I don't think anything we say will ever be listened to. I feel that when we reply negatively to anything they say ( which by the way you rarely do) it just infuriates them and they get even nastier. I guess we have to do what we have to do.
> 
> I do think that it is good for us to go out on the main forums and live life - rather than become so involved here that we lose sight of our own selves. I certainly am aware that people don't all agree with me and I would worry if they did - so it is something I felt might give people some thought. I do know that if I stay here too long I become more and more close minded and am wanting to 'fight' If it worked that would be okay - but it just takes me and others to a different level which is not in my opiniion only, gaining anything. I should put my money where my mouth is ,but I find I can't. That speaks on how well I manage to do what I feel I should do.
> 
> YOu are someone who keeps their cool and I admire you. At least I have expressed my truth and beliefs.


Thanks for saying that, but my cool has been missing ever since I was accused of being a leader of White/Jewish Supremacy. Fortunately, my accuser was suspended for a pretty long time. Now that she's back, I don't know how long I'll be able to stay calm, even though, as you point out, it doesn't help to get into a fight. Maybe we need a 12-step program.

As for my rarely being negative, one of the righties thinks I'm the worst verbal abuser of the bunch.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Purl, solo is just jealous of anyone with a brain. 
I'm still in Texas, my flight home today was cancelled due to severe storms in Dallas. Hopefully, all will go well tomorrow.
Keep fighting the GOOD fight ladies. 
BP


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Thanks for saying that, but my cool has been missing ever since I was accused of being a leader of White/Jewish Supremacy. Fortunately, my accuser was suspended for a pretty long time. Now that she's back, I don't know how long I'll be able to stay calm, even though, as you point out, it doesn't help to get into a fight. Maybe we need a 12-step program.
> 
> As for my rarely being negative, one of the righties thinks I'm the worst verbal abuser of the bunch.


I sometimes wonder if they choose or draw straws to see who they can pick on - Janeway is the one I have the most problems with She is posting on the main forum attacking one of us 
I know how uncomfortable you must be with KPG on line again. Don't let her get to you. I doubt she wants to lose her power base again by saying the same things.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Janeway just posted this on the main forum chit chat when she was trying to make an impression. I guess Dame Mary is the one she is following and attacking publicy now. It is the same old same old that she is an Indian and everyone is picking on her. 
---------------------
"Amy, there are lots of hateful people on KP so it keeps Admin very busy kicking people off, but they return under a different name!

I was slammed again this morning with my race as some on KP still "hates" Indians! One person Damemary said she now knows what "tribe" I'm from!

I reported her to Admin!

You are one lovely lady who have helped so many people so ignore those hateful people. I should take the same advice, but they get my dander stirred!

For those who are wondering--I'm a full blooded Native American Apache Indian & proud of my heritage!

We have always been here & will continue to be among you so get used to that fact"!

http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-258512-2.html
-------------------
Dame -- I sure wouldn't let her get to you . She followed me around saying I was stalking her. If she hasn't got drama she makes drama and truth is not even close to important to her. I wonder if she is a bit over the top emotionally.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I sometimes wonder if they choose or draw straws to see who they can pick on - Janeway is the one I have the most problems with She is posting on the main forum attacking one of us
> I know how uncomfortable you must be with KPG on line again. Don't let her get to you. I doubt she wants to lose her power base again by saying the same things.


She's doing it on main??? Where the talk is about knitting??? I can't imagine anyone taking her seriously.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Janeway just posted this on the main forum chit chat when she was trying to make an impression. I guess Dame Mary is the one she is following and attacking publicy now. It is the same old same old that she is an Indian and everyone is picking on her.
> ---------------------
> "Amy, there are lots of hateful people on KP so it keeps Admin very busy kicking people off, but they return under a different name!
> 
> ...


Yes I have read her crap before about being native American and talking about this sacred land. I have asked her several times how she feels about her sacred land being destroyed by the fracking and oil drilling and all the climate change deniers, all her fellow republicans, but she has refused to answer, so she may be an native American, but she is a phony when it comes to defending this sacred land.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> She's doing it on main??? Where the talk is about knitting??? I can't imagine anyone taking her seriously.


Well you can plainly see that admin doesn't take her seriously. Otherwise, no one would be left but her.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> She's doing it on main??? Where the talk is about knitting??? I can't imagine anyone taking her seriously.


Amyknits who is also a stirrer seems to be -- I just posted the link with my post


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Well you can plainly see that admin doesn't take her seriously. Otherwise, no one would be left but her.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Amyknits who is also a stirrer seems to be -- I just posted the link with my post


Amyknits is a know-it-all. But she's smart enough to see what Janeway is like.

I can't even figure out why Damemary saying "we know what tribe you belong to" is pejorative, let alone racist.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I sometimes wonder if they choose or draw straws to see who they can pick on - Janeway is the one I have the most problems with She is posting on the main forum attacking one of us
> I know how uncomfortable you must be with KPG on line again. Don't let her get to you. I doubt she wants to lose her power base again by saying the same things.


I'm sure she doesn't, but in the end she may not be able to help herself. And course her followers don't help matters--they've gotten her in more than one jam with some of strange stuff they've posted.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> She's doing it on main??? Where the talk is about knitting??? I can't imagine anyone taking her seriously.


Hmm...I wondered why she hadn't been on any of her regular threads today. Maybe the KGB banished her from General Chit-Chat for a day or so after those stunts she pulled yesterday.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

For those who wonder about my way of thinking, I will explain.

My 'tribe' remark came from Janesway's attempt at humor posting the monkey at the computer picture. I thanked her for the photo and (inadvisedly) said we knew which tribe she belonged to. (She always says she's 100% Native American but never identifies a tribe which is the government which verifies membership and provides benefits.)

Ignoring would be better. I try. I really try. Sometimes I'm weaker than others.



Designer1234 said:


> Janeway just posted this on the main forum chit chat when she was trying to make an impression. I guess Dame Mary is the one she is following and attacking publicy now. It is the same old same old that she is an Indian and everyone is picking on her.
> ---------------------
> "Amy, there are lots of hateful people on KP so it keeps Admin very busy kicking people off, but they return under a different name!
> 
> ...


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> For those who wonder about my way of thinking, I will explain.
> 
> My 'tribe' remark came from Janesway's attempt at humor posting the monkey at the computer picture. I thanked her for the photo and (inadvisedly) said we knew which tribe she belonged to. (She always says she's 100% Native American but never identifies a tribe which is the government which verifies membership and provides benefits.)
> 
> Ignoring would be better. I try. I really try. Sometimes I'm weaker than others.


We all try but it is so difficult not to answer the nastiness. Not to worry -- She is in a world of her own and no one else resides there.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> For those who wonder about my way of thinking, I will explain.
> 
> My 'tribe' remark came from Janesway's attempt at humor posting the monkey at the computer picture. I thanked her for the photo and (inadvisedly) said we knew which tribe she belonged to. (She always says she's 100% Native American but never identifies a tribe which is the government which verifies membership and provides benefits.)


No, not always--I distinctly remember a period when Janeway claimed to be part Cherokee and had some story to tell about her great-grandfather and an "Indian princess" who, upon marriage, changed her name and never saw her family again. I was actually pleased when Janeway started referring to herself as a 100% Apache. The first story was too sad and, even if not true for Janeway, was certainly the reality for a lot of Native Americans in the past couple of centuries.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We learn something new all the time.



susanmos2000 said:


> No, not always--I distinctly remember a period when Janeway claimed to be part Cherokee and had some story to tell about her great-grandfather and an "Indian princess" who, upon marriage, changed her name and never saw her family again. I was actually pleased when Janeway started referring to herself as a 100% Apache. The first story was too sad and, even if not true for Janeway, was certainly the reality for a lot of Native Americans in the past couple of centuries.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Well, I still think she is a phony. If she really did value "this sacred land" as it says on the pictures she posts, she would defend it against climate change, fracking etc, but she won't my questions at all. She either doesn't really give a crap about the land or she won't say anything that might offend her buddies.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> For those who wonder about my way of thinking, I will explain.
> - - - - - - - - -
> Ignoring would be better. I try. I really try. Sometimes I'm weaker than others.


They are sometimes so easy it is impossible to ignore the opportunity to respond appropriately. I try not to rubberneck at accidents either. And your comments are so to the point and witty that we like minded folk appreciate them.

The motto is Illegitimi non carborundum est.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Marilyn. (I had 4 years of Latin but I would have had to look up the b******s to spell it. Thanks for the witty reply. )



MarilynKnits said:


> They are sometimes so easy it is impossible to ignore the opportunity to respond appropriately. I try not to rubberneck at accidents either. And your comments are so to the point and witty that we like minded folk appreciate them.
> 
> The motto is Illegitimi non carborundum est.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

alcameron said:


> My boyfriend, Robert Reich writes about proposed legislation in California which would base corporate taxes on a ratio comparing a typical worker's pay with the CEO's pay. If the CEO makes 400 times that of the typical worker the corporate tax rate would reflect that with a higher tax rate, and if the CEO"s pay was just 25 times the typical worker's, the corporate tax rate would be much lower. Interesting concept.
> 
> http://robertreich.org/post/83456610643b


alcameron
Robert Reich is on the right track.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

These republicans are amazing, or maybe the word should be crazy, or maybe desperate or lots of others I could come up with.

Kentucky Gov. Steve Beshear filed an appeal last week in federal court defending his state's ban on same-sex marriage, after a federal judge invalidated a portion of the law earlier this year. In the appeal, the state argues that legalizing interracial marriage in 1967 made sense because those unions made babies, but gay couples should not be allowed those same rights. Why? Because that would harm Kentucky's birth rate. [...]

According to the state, the case for legalizing same-sex marriage in Kentucky is different from Loving v. Virginiathe landmark 1967 Supreme Court case that invalidated state laws banning interracial marriagebecause "man-man and woman-woman couples cannot procreate" and Kentucky has an interest in encouraging procreation in the name of promoting "long-term economic stability through stable birth rates."


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

NJG said:


> These republicans are amazing, or maybe the word should be crazy, or maybe desperate or lots of others I could come up with.
> 
> Kentucky Gov. Steve Beshear filed an appeal last week in federal court defending his state's ban on same-sex marriage, after a federal judge invalidated a portion of the law earlier this year. In the appeal, the state argues that legalizing interracial marriage in 1967 made sense because those unions made babies, but gay couples should not be allowed those same rights. Why? Because that would harm Kentucky's birth rate. [...]
> 
> According to the state, the case for legalizing same-sex marriage in Kentucky is different from Loving v. Virginiathe landmark 1967 Supreme Court case that invalidated state laws banning interracial marriagebecause "man-man and woman-woman couples cannot procreate" and Kentucky has an interest in encouraging procreation in the name of promoting "long-term economic stability through stable birth rates."


Once again tagging women as brood mares.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Once again tagging women as brood mares.


Right, not worth a hoot if they can't reproduce.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Has anyone been watching the "brainghazi" affair unfolding? That's Jon Stewart's term for what Karl Rove is trying to dredge up about Hillary's health. Why is it OK to make up stuff and put it on national TV? These people have a lot of chutzpah!! And people believe it because hate Hillary and they're so used to believing any old crap. We'd best gird ourselves. There'll be something new everyday.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Has anyone been watching the "brainghazi" affair unfolding? That's Jon Stewart's term for what Karl Rove is trying to dredge up about Hillary's health. Why is it OK to make up stuff and put it on national TV? These people have a lot of chutzpah!! And people believe it because hate Hillary and they're so used to believing any old crap. We'd best gird ourselves. There'll be something new everyday.


Oh, yes. It's despicable, of course, but dirty tricks seem to be part and parcel of every Presidential election these days. There's no doubt in my mind that Democrat strategists are digging this very minute for every bit of dirt they can find on Rubio, Jeb Bush, and all the others.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Oh, yes. It's despicable, of course, but dirty tricks seem to be part and parcel of every Presidential election these days. There's no doubt in my mind that Democrat strategists are digging this very minute for every bit of dirt they can find on Rubio, Jeb Bush, and all the others.


Rubio says to the camera: I do not agree with the scientists who say that people have something to do with climate change. Takes a lot of arrogance to "DISAGREE" with scientists, and these guys do it all the time. Who the heck wants someone like that for president? The general public can be so dumb!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Obviously this is the 'best' they can come up with to fight a Hillary Clinton nomination. Ignored.



alcameron said:


> Has anyone been watching the "brainghazi" affair unfolding? That's Jon Stewart's term for what Karl Rove is trying to dredge up about Hillary's health. Why is it OK to make up stuff and put it on national TV? These people have a lot of chutzpah!! And people believe it because hate Hillary and they're so used to believing any old crap. We'd best gird ourselves. There'll be something new everyday.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Oh, yes. It's despicable, of course, but dirty tricks seem to be part and parcel of every Presidential election these days. There's no doubt in my mind that Democrat strategists are digging this very minute for every bit of dirt they can find on Rubio, Jeb Bush, and all the others.


And they won't need a shovel or dig too deep to find anything.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Rubio says to the camera: I do not agree with the scientists who say that people have something to do with climate change. Takes a lot of arrogance to "DISAGREE" with scientists, and these guys do it all the time. Who the heck wants someone like that for president? The general public can be so dumb!


True, true. In fact, now that I think about it, Demo strategists won't have to dig at all to get the goods--turning on CNN and listening to those guys give public statements should more than suffice


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM, stop reading my mind and saying it first!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> SQM, stop reading my mind and saying it first!


Warped minds think alike!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> They are sometimes so easy it is impossible to ignore the opportunity to respond appropriately. I try not to rubberneck at accidents either. And your comments are so to the point and witty that we like minded folk appreciate them.
> 
> The motto is Illegitimi non carborundum est.


Illegitimates (children) are not made of carborundum?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> These republicans are amazing, or maybe the word should be crazy, or maybe desperate or lots of others I could come up with.
> 
> Kentucky Gov. Steve Beshear filed an appeal last week in federal court defending his state's ban on same-sex marriage, after a federal judge invalidated a portion of the law earlier this year. In the appeal, the state argues that legalizing interracial marriage in 1967 made sense because those unions made babies, but gay couples should not be allowed those same rights. Why? Because that would harm Kentucky's birth rate. ...
> 
> According to the state, the case for legalizing same-sex marriage in Kentucky is different from Loving v. Virginiathe landmark 1967 Supreme Court case that invalidated state laws banning interracial marriagebecause "man-man and woman-woman couples cannot procreate" and Kentucky has an interest in encouraging procreation in the name of promoting "long-term economic stability through stable birth rates."


I think originally government favored married couples (e.g., joint tax filings) precisely to encourage having children. So this isn't the first time it's been thought of that way.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Once again tagging women as brood mares.


See NJG's quote: "stable birth rates."

And men are tagged as studs. They always get the best in any bargain.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Has anyone been watching the "brainghazi" affair unfolding? That's Jon Stewart's term for what Karl Rove is trying to dredge up about Hillary's health. Why is it OK to make up stuff and put it on national TV? These people have a lot of chutzpah!! And people believe it because hate Hillary and they're so used to believing any old crap. We'd best gird ourselves. There'll be something new everyday.


There was a lawsuit few years ago involving Rupert Murdoch, the upshot of which was that it's okay to lie, even on news broadcasts.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Has anyone been watching the "brainghazi" affair unfolding? That's Jon Stewart's term for what Karl Rove is trying to dredge up about Hillary's health. Why is it OK to make up stuff and put it on national TV? These people have a lot of chutzpah!! And people believe it because hate Hillary and they're so used to believing any old crap. We'd best gird ourselves. There'll be something new everyday.


Rove grew up in the College Republicans, which has an amazing (not in a good sense) culture: they're encouraged to cheat and lie and use whatever dirty tricks they can in order to get ahead. Wish I could remember where I saw the article about them, but it shocked me, and I'm not very shockable.

Amy Goodman has an article on Rove's tactics here (from 2005). It sums him up well:
http://web.archive.org/web/20071017021158/http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070814_roves_science_of_dirty_tricks/
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Something's wrong with the link. Second try:

http://web.archive.org/web/20071017021158/http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070814_roves_science_of_dirty_tricks/

It's okay, when I do edit, but a bunch of stuff gets into it after "Update." Does anyone know how to fix it? Amy Goodman's piece is well worth reading.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Remember rockin' and a rollin' Lee Atwater? Bad Karma Guy!

Rove grew up in the College Republicans, which has an amazing (not in a good sense) culture: they're encouraged to cheat and lie and use whatever dirty tricks they can in order to get ahead. Wish I could remember where I saw the article about them, but it shocked me, and I'm not very shockable.

Amy Goodman has an article on Rove's tactics here (from 2005). It sums him up well:
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070814_roves_science_of_dirty_tricks/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://web.archive.org/web/20071017021158/http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070814_ro...


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Remember rockin' and a rollin' Lee Atwater? Bad Karma Guy!


Didn't he die of brain cancer or the like? He really was bad karma, and in the end even saw it himself.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Didn't he die of brain cancer or the like? He really was bad karma, and in the end even saw it himself.


Yeah, he was a young guy who died of brain cancer. He refined the art of dirty tricks politics. A life misspent.

I see your puss is back from the Other Side. Nice to see her.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Yeah, he was a young guy who died of brain cancer. He refined the art of dirty tricks politics. A life misspent.
> 
> I see your puss is back from the Other Side. Nice to see her.


Thank you. I love that intelligent expression on her face. Cats are deceptive.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you. I love that intelligent expression on her face. Cats are deceptive.


Does this mean that your cat was an idiot?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Does this mean that your cat was an idiot?


Not this one. I did once have a cat who seemed a bit simple-minded. He was knock-kneed in front and bow-legged in back, and he loved everyone.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Not this one. I did once have a cat who seemed a bit simple-minded. He was knock-kneed in front and bow-legged in back, and he loved everyone.


We had a cat like that--the sole survivor of a litter who I believe was brain-damaged. He looked perfectly normal, but he was the most easy-going cat we ever saw and seemed to live in a happy little world of his own. Nothing disturbed him--the vet didn't even have to anesthetize him to remove a foxtail from his eye ("Is he always like this?" we were asked after the whole thing was over.)


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> We had a cat like that--the sole survivor of a litter who I believe was brain-damaged. He looked perfectly normal, but he was the most easy-going cat we ever saw and seemed to live in a happy little world of his own. Nothing disturbed him--the vet didn't even have to anesthetize him to remove a foxtail from his eye ("Is he always like this?" we were asked after the whole thing was over.)


He sounds delightful.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I think originally government favored married couples (e.g., joint tax filings) precisely to encourage having children. So this isn't the first time it's been thought of that way.


Maybe, but it sounds like they are running out of excuses, and getting desperate to destroy marriage equality.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> Maybe, but it sounds like they are running out of excuses, and getting desperate to destroy marriage equality.


It does sound like that.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Don't let the b******s wear you down. Good motto in any language. (I know you knew the translation. )



Poor Purl said:


> Illegitimates (children) are not made of carborundum?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

His end makes you believe in karma.



SQM said:


> Remember rockin' and a rollin' Lee Atwater? Bad Karma Guy!
> 
> Rove grew up in the College Republicans, which has an amazing (not in a good sense) culture: they're encouraged to cheat and lie and use whatever dirty tricks they can in order to get ahead. Wish I could remember where I saw the article about them, but it shocked me, and I'm not very shockable.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Yep er doodle.



Poor Purl said:


> Didn't he die of brain cancer or the like? He really was bad karma, and in the end even saw it himself.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

damemary said:


> Don't let the b******s wear you down. Good motto in any language. (I know you knew the translation. )


Haha! My dad had one of those little rubberish statues of a rather droopy looking fellow with that Latin inscription on the base!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sounds like a basset hound I had when the kids were little.



Poor Purl said:


> Not this one. I did once have a cat who seemed a bit simple-minded. He was knock-kneed in front and bow-legged in back, and he loved everyone.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sounds like my Ethel Mertz. Doesn't destroy anything, plays very briefly, pays no attention to strangers, never thinks of leaving the house even if the door's open. Watches whales on TV. I've never seen her hiss or even pretend to scratch. What's going on in feline DNA?

Tara the hero sure is different.



susanmos2000 said:


> We had a cat like that--the sole survivor of a litter who I believe was brain-damaged. He looked perfectly normal, but he was the most easy-going cat we ever saw and seemed to live in a happy little world of his own. Nothing disturbed him--the vet didn't even have to anesthetize him to remove a foxtail from his eye ("Is he always like this?" we were asked after the whole thing was over.)


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Don't let the b******s wear you down. Good motto in any language. (I know you knew the translation. )


I had to look it up.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Has anyone been watching the "brainghazi" affair unfolding? That's Jon Stewart's term for what Karl Rove is trying to dredge up about Hillary's health. Why is it OK to make up stuff and put it on national TV? These people have a lot of chutzpah!! And people believe it because hate Hillary and they're so used to believing any old crap. We'd best gird ourselves. There'll be something new everyday.


Is it hate her or are people scared ****less of a bright tough well spoken woman? If she were elected and did an excellent job running the country, it would deflate many hot air balloons (or is it buffoons). But if we think Congress is obstructionist to Mr. Obama, what would they try to pull with Ms. Clinton as President. Hope I live long enough and my brain stays with it enough to see the fur fly.

Think of the number of people who said the same sorts of things about Margaret Thatcher. And in Great Britain they were accustomed to having a Queen and a couple of former queens who were strong women, Elizabeth I and Victoria.

We are living under the curse of Confucius: "May you live in interesting times." Those guys who tried to stop Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton must be rolling over in their graves so hard they are auguring their way around the underground!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Did anyone watch Rachel last night? She was talking about the explosions happening on trains because of the crude oil being transported. Oil comes out of the ground mixed with natural gas, natural gas liquids and water. They first have to put it through a series of separators that reduces the pressure of the fluid, separating the ingredients. The stuff coming from the Bakken Shale formation straddling North Dakota and Montana has been known to be rich in volatile natural gas liquids like propane. These rail cars are from the 60's and have a tendency to rupture during a derailment. They are suppose to be taking the propane etc out, but it is suspected that they are not taking as much propane out as they should, which makes the crude from the Bakken especially volatile. Some drillers might also be purposefully selling their crude "fluffed up" with propane and small amounts of butane to boost the volume of oil in the railcar and maximize their profits. 
As an oil train shakes, rattles and rolls toward the refinery, which in the case of Bakken oil can be thousands of miles away, the propane begins separating from the liquid and turning into gas, and then imagine it in a tanker [the DOT-111] not meant to carry that type of liquid. The NTSB had first warned of the dangers of using the DOT-111 to carry hazardous materials 21 years ago.
A typical tank car carries 30,000 gallons and a train may carry 100 of those cars. In 2008, 9,500 carloads of Bakken oil were shipped. By 2013, the number had climbed above 400,000, and is expected to increase by 50% by next year.
My purpose in writing this is to say that I will no longer wait at a crossing as a train passes, even though they may be going slow at that time. I will be turning around and heading in the opposite direction. One explosion caused damage in a 3 block area, and I would rather not be near by.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Is it hate her or are people scared ****less of a bright tough well spoken woman? If she were elected and did an excellent job running the country, it would deflate many hot air balloons (or is it buffoons). But if we think Congress is obstructionist to Mr. Obama, what would they try to pull with Ms. Clinton as President. Hope I live long enough and my brain stays with it enough to see the fur fly.
> 
> Think of the number of people who said the same sorts of things about Margaret Thatcher. And in Great Britain they were accustomed to having a Queen and a couple of former queens who were strong women, Elizabeth I and Victoria.
> 
> We are living under the curse of Confucius: "May you live in interesting times." Those guys who tried to stop Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton must be rolling over in their graves so hard they are auguring their way around the underground!


I think they are scared ****less of Hillary. If she runs, it will be the dirtiest campaign we have ever seen, and they have already started. How about a Clinton/Warren ticket.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

NJG said:


> Did anyone watch Rachel last night? She was talking about the explosions happening on trains because of the crude oil being transported. Oil comes out of the ground mixed with natural gas, natural gas liquids and water. They first have to put it through a series of separators that reduces the pressure of the fluid, separating the ingredients. The stuff coming from the Bakken Shale formation straddling North Dakota and Montana has been known to be rich in volatile natural gas liquids like propane. These rail cars are from the 60's and have a tendency to rupture during a derailment. They are suppose to be taking the propane etc out, but it is suspected that they are not taking as much propane out as they should, which makes the crude from the Bakken especially volatile. Some drillers might also be purposefully selling their crude "fluffed up" with propane and small amounts of butane to boost the volume of oil in the railcar and maximize their profits.
> As an oil train shakes, rattles and rolls toward the refinery, which in the case of Bakken oil can be thousands of miles away, the propane begins separating from the liquid and turning into gas, and then imagine it in a tanker [the DOT-111] not meant to carry that type of liquid. The NTSB had first warned of the dangers of using the DOT-111 to carry hazardous materials 21 years ago.
> A typical tank car carries 30,000 gallons and a train may carry 100 of those cars. In 2008, 9,500 carloads of Bakken oil were shipped. By 2013, the number had climbed above 400,000, and is expected to increase by 50% by next year.
> My purpose in writing this is to say that I will no longer wait at a crossing as a train passes, even though they may be going slow at that time. I will be turning around and heading in the opposite direction. One explosion caused damage in a 3 block area, and I would rather not be near by.


Whoa! Thank you for sharing what may be life saving information for many of us.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

NJG said:


> I think they are scared ****less of Hillary. If she runs, it will be the dirtiest campaign we have ever seen, and they have already started. How about a Clinton/Warren ticket.


There are people whose heads would explode.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Did anyone here watch the 9/11 memorial opening today? It was so moving! I couldn't stop watching. It looked like a wonderful place and it looked like they have done a great job. So sad - family, firefighters, people who survived, different people involved. The saddest part to me was the concrete steps that those who were escaping walked down and lived -at the bottom of the building ruins - while so many others died. 

I was in tears.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Whoa! Thank you for sharing what may be life saving information for many of us.


I agree--thanks, NJG!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Did anyone here watch the 9/11 memorial opening today? It was so moving! I couldn't stop watching. It looked like a wonderful place and it looked like they have done a great job. So sad - family, firefighters, people who survived, different people involved. The saddest part to me was the concrete steps that those who were escaping walked down and lived -at the bottom of the building ruins - while so many others died.
> 
> I was in tears.


The energy down there is magnetically miserable. They should have left it empty for awhile. Are companies signing up to work there?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

NJG said:


> Did anyone watch Rachel last night? She was talking about the explosions happening on trains because of the crude oil being transported. Oil comes out of the ground mixed with natural gas, natural gas liquids and water. They first have to put it through a series of separators that reduces the pressure of the fluid, separating the ingredients. The stuff coming from the Bakken Shale formation straddling North Dakota and Montana has been known to be rich in volatile natural gas liquids like propane. These rail cars are from the 60's and have a tendency to rupture during a derailment. They are suppose to be taking the propane etc out, but it is suspected that they are not taking as much propane out as they should, which makes the crude from the Bakken especially volatile. Some drillers might also be purposefully selling their crude "fluffed up" with propane and small amounts of butane to boost the volume of oil in the railcar and maximize their profits.
> As an oil train shakes, rattles and rolls toward the refinery, which in the case of Bakken oil can be thousands of miles away, the propane begins separating from the liquid and turning into gas, and then imagine it in a tanker [the DOT-111] not meant to carry that type of liquid. The NTSB had first warned of the dangers of using the DOT-111 to carry hazardous materials 21 years ago.
> A typical tank car carries 30,000 gallons and a train may carry 100 of those cars. In 2008, 9,500 carloads of Bakken oil were shipped. By 2013, the number had climbed above 400,000, and is expected to increase by 50% by next year.
> My purpose in writing this is to say that I will no longer wait at a crossing as a train passes, even though they may be going slow at that time. I will be turning around and heading in the opposite direction. One explosion caused damage in a 3 block area, and I would rather not be near by.


What does this say about the XL pipeline? If there's no pipeline will the oil be transported across our country by rail? What's worse?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Hillary started out as the breadwinner in a very high-powered law firm. I think she learned to play with the big boys before Bill did. Anything obstructionist Congress can invent, Hillary can shove it right back at them. She's one tough cookie when she needs to be. I think she also knows how to dole out cookies as rewards. Their choice. Look like female hating idiots or statesmen/women?



MarilynKnits said:


> Is it hate her or are people scared ****less of a bright tough well spoken woman? If she were elected and did an excellent job running the country, it would deflate many hot air balloons (or is it buffoons). But if we think Congress is obstructionist to Mr. Obama, what would they try to pull with Ms. Clinton as President. Hope I live long enough and my brain stays with it enough to see the fur fly.
> 
> Think of the number of people who said the same sorts of things about Margaret Thatcher. And in Great Britain they were accustomed to having a Queen and a couple of former queens who were strong women, Elizabeth I and Victoria.
> 
> We are living under the curse of Confucius: "May you live in interesting times." Those guys who tried to stop Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton must be rolling over in their graves so hard they are auguring their way around the underground!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Those rail cars could be passing your town while you're sound asleep. Don't mean to scare you, but it's another of those things with no simple answers. And the people who should be developing the answers have no inclination to do so.



NJG said:


> Did anyone watch Rachel last night? She was talking about the explosions happening on trains because of the crude oil being transported. Oil comes out of the ground mixed with natural gas, natural gas liquids and water. They first have to put it through a series of separators that reduces the pressure of the fluid, separating the ingredients. The stuff coming from the Bakken Shale formation straddling North Dakota and Montana has been known to be rich in volatile natural gas liquids like propane. These rail cars are from the 60's and have a tendency to rupture during a derailment. They are suppose to be taking the propane etc out, but it is suspected that they are not taking as much propane out as they should, which makes the crude from the Bakken especially volatile. Some drillers might also be purposefully selling their crude "fluffed up" with propane and small amounts of butane to boost the volume of oil in the railcar and maximize their profits.
> As an oil train shakes, rattles and rolls toward the refinery, which in the case of Bakken oil can be thousands of miles away, the propane begins separating from the liquid and turning into gas, and then imagine it in a tanker [the DOT-111] not meant to carry that type of liquid. The NTSB had first warned of the dangers of using the DOT-111 to carry hazardous materials 21 years ago.
> A typical tank car carries 30,000 gallons and a train may carry 100 of those cars. In 2008, 9,500 carloads of Bakken oil were shipped. By 2013, the number had climbed above 400,000, and is expected to increase by 50% by next year.
> My purpose in writing this is to say that I will no longer wait at a crossing as a train passes, even though they may be going slow at that time. I will be turning around and heading in the opposite direction. One explosion caused damage in a 3 block area, and I would rather not be near by.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That's the ticket I'd like to see. Then Warren is in line for the presidency next.



NJG said:


> I think they are scared ****less of Hillary. If she runs, it will be the dirtiest campaign we have ever seen, and they have already started. How about a Clinton/Warren ticket.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That alone would make the effort worthwhile.



MarilynKnits said:


> There are people whose heads would explode.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I felt the same way. I'm anxious to hear from those who live in NYC and environs on the subject.



Designer1234 said:


> Did anyone here watch the 9/11 memorial opening today? It was so moving! I couldn't stop watching. It looked like a wonderful place and it looked like they have done a great job. So sad - family, firefighters, people who survived, different people involved. The saddest part to me was the concrete steps that those who were escaping walked down and lived -at the bottom of the building ruins - while so many others died.
> 
> I was in tears.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

To me it says that the XL pipeline should never be built. I think there is too much risk.



alcameron said:


> What does this say about the XL pipeline? If there's no pipeline will the oil be transported across our country by rail? What's worse?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I felt the same way. I'm anxious to hear from those who live in NYC and environs on the subject.


You'll hear next to nothing from the locals. 9/11 was a tragedy. It also upset our lives for a while, but we had to get back to them. I don't know a single New Yorker who has gone down to the memorial. I'm sure there are some, but it's mainly visitors who go to see it, and probably those who lost somebody.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> You'll hear next to nothing from the locals. 9/11 was a tragedy. It also upset our lives for a while, but we had to get back to them. I don't know a single New Yorker who has gone down to the memorial. I'm sure there are some, but it's mainly visitors who go to see it, and probably those who lost somebody.


Where was Bush today? I'm glad he wasn't there, but I'm surprised. Does that mean he had the good sense to stay away?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> I felt the same way. I'm anxious to hear from those who live in NYC and environs on the subject.


It was a very moving ceremony. Perhaps that is why the flags were at half mast today?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Where was Bush today? I'm glad he wasn't there, but I'm surprised. Does that mean he had the good sense to stay away?


That is a loaded question, al. I don't think the man has any sense let alone good sense.
I personally think he is lacking in the "stones" department.
I, too, am glad that he wasn't there


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Where was Bush today? I'm glad he wasn't there, but I'm surprised. Does that mean he had the good sense to stay away?


I don't think he goes anywhere any more. He always was a homebody. Rudy Giuliani was there - that's bad enough.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I don't think he goes anywhere any more. He always was a homebody. Rudy Giuliani was there - that's bad enough.


I agree. Here I go again with my cousins. I have 6 in NY 1 in FL, 1 in GA, and 1 in Texas. There were 7 in New York. 4 were NYPD. John was killed in 2000 in the line of duty during a high speed chase in Staten Island. Guiliani instructed the doctors to keep him alive and sent a chopper upstate with the oldest son (also NYPD) to bring my aunt to back to the hospital. He gave a very moving speech at the funeral and promised my aunt that all of her sons would be pulled from the street and put in detective positions. That promise was never fulfilled. After the funeral, he forgot the entire family existed. His wife (John's) is also a cop he and made many promises to her that were forgotten.
I lost all respect for that man. Afterall, a man is only as good as his word, right?
The real kicker here was that Guiliani had the bagpipe squad, the food catered, and all the bells and whistles. He billed John's wife for the entire wake and funeral.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> What does this say about the XL pipeline? If there's no pipeline will the oil be transported across our country by rail? What's worse?


That is the question. The pipeline is guaranteed to leak. From what I have read, the company putting the pipeline through do not care a whole lot about what happens to the environment and the quality of the pipe they are using isn't good, so crap happens to the land and water they go through or the we worry about the trains derailing. I wish we would pursue alternative energy instead of fracking. But when you have people like the Koch Brothers in charge, looks like either way we loose.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I agree. Here I go again with my cousins. I have 6 in NY 1 in FL, 1 in GA, and 1 in Texas. There were 7 in New York. 4 were NYPD. John was killed in 2000 in the line of duty during a high speed chase in Staten Island. Guiliani instructed the doctors to keep him alive and sent a chopper upstate with the oldest son (also NYPD) to bring my aunt to back to the hospital. He gave a very moving speech at the funeral and promised my aunt that all of her sons would be pulled from the street and put in detective positions. That promise was never fulfilled. After the funeral, he forgot the entire family existed. His wife is also a cop and made many promises to her that were forgotten.
> I lost all respect for that man. afterall, a man is only as good as his word, right?
> The real kicker here was that Guiliani had the bagpipe squad, the food catered, and all the bells and whistles. He billed John's wife for the entire wake and funeral.


We know Guiliani is an a$$hole, he has proven it over and over. If we only knew all the stories about him, such as the one you just told, but at this point I don't think we would be shocked.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I don't think he goes anywhere any more. He always was a homebody. Rudy Giuliani was there - that's bad enough.


Yes, I am glad he keeps a low profile. There are enough reminders of all the tragedy he brought upon this country. We don't need him reminding us of whose fault it is. He and all his cohorts still say it was the right thing to do. Wonder if any of them will ever admit what a mistake it was. Doubtful.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> Hillary started out as the breadwinner in a very high-powered law firm. I think she learned to play with the big boys before Bill did. Anything obstructionist Congress can invent, Hillary can shove it right back at them. She's one tough cookie when she needs to be. I think she also knows how to dole out cookies as rewards. Their choice. Look like female hating idiots or statesmen/women?


After President Obama was elected we found out how racist this country still is. If Hillary is elected I bet we find out how many "male chauvinists" we still have in this country. I will guess lots, especially republicans, those old white republicans that are racists have lots of issues.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> Those rail cars could be passing your town while you're sound asleep. Don't mean to scare you, but it's another of those things with no simple answers. And the people who should be developing the answers have no inclination to do so.


It all boils down to money. Those tank cars were suppose to be replace or retrofitted to be safer, but it hasn't happened. The Koch brothers don't live near the tracks, so no problem.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

alcameron said:


> What does this say about the XL pipeline? If there's no pipeline will the oil be transported across our country by rail? What's worse?


Shirley here -- I am from Alberta and Ft . MacMurray is north of us where the tar sands are.

Ours is the Province that is trying to sell the XLpipeline idea to the states. We have had two major train explosions
where blocks were demolished and people killed recently.

The pipeline is, as to be expected a big thing here. I don't know what the answer is- I hate the trains as they are rolling all over canada and it sounds as if it is the same in the US. They are old and dangerous. I certainly understand the people who don't want the pipe line. I am just wondering which is worse as was mentioned in the previous post. It seems to be one or the other.

I have such mixed feelings about it as it will also travel through part of Canada as well, however the trains are 30 -40 years old and the tracks seem to run right through our towns and cities.

I know the Oil people strongly feel that it is l00 times safer, but at the same time they are going to make the Profit. It would be a huge thing, economically for Alberta but even though it would help our Province hugely, I am not sure how I really feel about sending a pipeline through north America. I do know I don't like the trains.

During our flood last year a train derailed right in Calgary because one of the train bridges was undermined by the water and it was very very worrisome. No one knew what was in it -- and they were very afraid it would either explode or leak into one of the main watersources for Southern Alberta towns and cities. The Company was not absolutely sure exactly how much damage it would cause. The fire department finally managed to lift the train of the track with huge cranes and move it along the track on the other side of the bridge. They moved people out about a mile in all directions, scary.

Pat (dh) and I have discussed it and would not be surprised if it is not accepted in the States and Both of us and others from here understand completely why. I am not in any way trying to influence anyone --We get the Pro positiion here in our Papers, etc, but I am very unsure . I do know that I am very anti Trains-- There are going to be more and more problems with with tank cars going through towns on old tracks and using very old cars -- It is so scary --We had a terrible explosion in Quebec - the center of the town was blown up -- large loss of life.

Not sure what I feel about it. Just a view from a Canadian who lives in the Province where the Pipeline would start from.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Mark Pryor, democrat for Arkansas running for reelection to the senate was running behind and was expected to loose. He is now 10 points ahead because he has been running adds saying his republican opponent, Tom Cotton, voted to turn Medicare into a voucher system, and raise the eligibility age to 70, like in the Ryan budget. Rachel called it the democrats "Secret Sauce." I hope they all use it wherever possible, but we have a ways to go yet.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

OK, this has nothing to do with politics (I don't think) but is anyone else having a huge influx of great, big crows?? There are huge flocks of them in the trees all over our neighborhood. Now we have one huge one we've named "Nevermore" that comes to our birdbath and scares the other birds away---except for the bluejays that don't scare that easily. Nevermore deposits his peanut shells in our birdbath, has a shower, then comes walking on our patio like he owns the place. He is HUGE! We've lived in this house for 35 years, and we've never seen anything like it. On top of everything else, they are incredibly noisy. Time to eat crow?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

NJG said:


> Mark Pryor, democrat for Arkansas running for reelection to the senate was running behind and was expected to loose. He is now 10 points ahead because he has been running adds saying his republican opponent, Tom Cotton, voted to turn Medicare into a voucher system, and raise the eligibility age to 70, like in the Ryan budget. Rachel called it the democrats "Secret Sauce." I hope they all use it wherever possible, but we have a ways to go yet.


If the Democrats are smart they'd spend some money publicizing all the repub incumbents who are in favor of destroying Medicare this way. Medicare is a very popular program.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Shirley here -- I am from Alberta and Ft . MacMurray is north of us where the tar sands are.
> 
> Ours is the Province that is trying to sell the pipeline idea to the states. We have had two major train explosions where blocks were demolished and people killed.
> 
> ...


What it boils down to is the people at the top of Trans Canada won't have the pipeline going through their property and it really is hard to swallow that they can come into the US and claim eminent domain and take the land they want. Some republican governors have tried to make it easier for them, but the everyday folks have fought a lot of battles in court, and the ones from Nebraska are pretty confident they will win. I hope President Obama makes the right decision. I guess I have say no to the pipeline, because they are guaranteed to leak and once they do that, tar sands is the hardest to clean up. Trains can be made safer and the Department of Transportation can put some more regulations against them. Another reason we must keep democrats in office.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

NJG said:


> What it boils down to is the people at the top of Trans Canada won't have the pipeline going through their property and it really is hard to swallow that they can come into the US and claim eminent domain and take the land they want. Some republican governors have tried to make it easier for them, but the everyday folks have fought a lot of battles in court, and the ones from Nebraska are pretty confident they will win. I hope President Obama makes the right decision. I guess I have say no to the pipeline, because they are guaranteed to leak and once they do that, tar sands is the hardest to clean up. Trains can be made safer and the Department of Transportation can put some more regulations against them. Another reason we must keep democrats in office.


I'm opposed to the pipeline, too. The oil isn't even going to the US, so why should our land be used this way? On the other hand if it's going to come through anyway by train . . . . .


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> OK, this has nothing to do with politics (I don't think) but is anyone else having a huge influx of great, big crows?? There are huge flocks of them in the trees all over our neighborhood. Now we have one huge one we've named "Nevermore" that comes to our birdbath and scares the other birds away---except for the bluejays that don't scare that easily. Nevermore deposits his peanut shells in our birdbath, has a shower, then comes walking on our patio like he owns the place. He is HUGE! We've lived in this house for 35 years, and we've never seen anything like it. On top of everything else, they are incredibly noisy. Time to eat crow?


Do you think they may be ravens? I just read this about crows and ravens. I just looked at my tape measure and 25 inches with a 4 ft wing span would be one big bird. Here is a fun story to read about them getting bigger and hungrier. Watch out Al.

http://www.whidbeynewstimes.com/opinion/98867469.html

The most noticeable difference between a crow and a raven is size; in most cases, the largest black birds in this genus are known as ravens. Common Ravens are noticeably larger than American Crows, for example. Ravens average 25 inches tall (64 cm) with a 4 foot (122 cm) wing span, about the size of a hawk, while crows are around 18 inches (46 cm) tall and their wings span 3 feet (91 cm), similar to a dove.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

NJG said:


> Do you think they may be ravens? I just read this about crows and ravens. I just looked at my tape measure and 25 inches with a 4 ft wing span would be one big bird. Here is a fun story to read about them getting bigger and hungrier. Watch out Al.
> 
> http://www.whidbeynewstimes.com/opinion/98867469.html
> 
> The most noticeable difference between a crow and a raven is size; in most cases, the largest black birds in this genus are known as ravens. Common Ravens are noticeably larger than American Crows, for example. Ravens average 25 inches tall (64 cm) with a 4 foot (122 cm) wing span, about the size of a hawk, while crows are around 18 inches (46 cm) tall and their wings span 3 feet (91 cm), similar to a dove.


Thanks for the info.
I guess they must be crows because I don't think our bird is two feel tall. I did a little reading online, so I think i'm going to look more closely tomorrow and maybe take a picture. Nevermore comes by himself, but there are flocks in the neighborhood. The information said that ravens are usually loners. I have to be more observant.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Here's an old crow joke I posted a long time ago. Time to dig it up.

Crow Mystery 
Solved.Researchers for the 
Massachusetts Turnpike Authority found over 200 dead crows 
near greater Boston recently, and there was concern that they 
may have died from Avian Flu. A Bird Pathologist examined the 
remains of all the crows, and, to everyone's relief, confirmed 
the problem was definitely NOT Avian Flu. The cause of death 
appeared to be vehicular impacts.

However, during the 
detailed analysis it was noted that varying colors of paints 
appeared on the bird's beaks and claws. By analyzing these 
paint residues it was determined that 98% of the crows had 
been killed by impact with trucks, while only 2% were killed 
by an impact with a car.

MTA then hired an 
Ornithological Behaviorist to determine if there was a cause 
for the disproportionate percentages of truck kills versus car 
kills.

The Ornithological Behaviorist very quickly 
concluded the cause: when crows eat road kill, they always 
have a look-out crow in a nearby tree to warn of impending 
danger.

The conclusion was that while all the lookout 
crows could say "Cah", none could say "Truck."


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I agree. Here I go again with my cousins. I have 6 in NY 1 in FL, 1 in GA, and 1 in Texas. There were 7 in New York. 4 were NYPD. John was killed in 2000 in the line of duty during a high speed chase in Staten Island. Guiliani instructed the doctors to keep him alive and sent a chopper upstate with the oldest son (also NYPD) to bring my aunt to back to the hospital. He gave a very moving speech at the funeral and promised my aunt that all of her sons would be pulled from the street and put in detective positions. That promise was never fulfilled. After the funeral, he forgot the entire family existed. His wife (John's) is also a cop he and made many promises to her that were forgotten.
> I lost all respect for that man. Afterall, a man is only as good as his word, right?
> The real kicker here was that Guiliani had the bagpipe squad, the food catered, and all the bells and whistles. He billed John's wife for the entire wake and funeral.


That Giuliani didn't keep his promises doesn't surprise me. He seems to have an inability to live up to things - remember when he announced he was running for president but only campaigned in Florida? But to have ordered that wake and then charged the widow - surely some assistant should have told him that just wasn't done. What a typically awful story.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> Yes, I am glad he keeps a low profile. There are enough reminders of all the tragedy he brought upon this country. We don't need him reminding us of whose fault it is. He and all his cohorts still say it was the right thing to do. Wonder if any of them will ever admit what a mistake it was. Doubtful.


They NEVER admit mistakes; they never apologize. I think it's against their creed (whatever that is).


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Shirley here -- I am from Alberta and Ft . MacMurray is north of us where the tar sands are.
> 
> Ours is the Province that is trying to sell the XLpipeline idea to the states. We have had two major train explosions
> where blocks were demolished and people killed recently.
> ...


Hi, Shirley. You bring up the eternal problem where high-profit corporations are concerned: they get all the benefit, but the ordinary people are left with the risks. It's telling that you say, "The Company was not absolutely sure exactly how much damage it would cause." Why are they permitted to do all this without knowing the damage? In fact, all kinds of things can go wrong with underground pipelines without anyone finding out until a lot of damage is done.

I have read that extracting tar-sands oil is a very dirty operation. Is it affecting your area? That's another risk that the public has placed on it, while the company ignores it.

I can't imagine why the US would allow the pipeline to come through, but governments don't always do what's best for citizens. Whatever happened to oil tanker? If they need to send that oil to Texas, why not by sea? Though there have been enough things that have gone wrong with ships. I don't think there's a good solution as long as the world is so oil-dependent.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Here's an old crow joke I posted a long time ago. Time to dig it up.
> 
> Crow Mystery
> Solved.Researchers for the
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That has been my personal feeling. We've seen it. We survived. We learned from it. Now I'm looking ahead. The attention seems melodramatic to me.



Poor Purl said:


> You'll hear next to nothing from the locals. 9/11 was a tragedy. It also upset our lives for a while, but we had to get back to them. I don't know a single New Yorker who has gone down to the memorial. I'm sure there are some, but it's mainly visitors who go to see it, and probably those who lost somebody.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> I agree. Here I go again with my cousins. I have 6 in NY 1 in FL, 1 in GA, and 1 in Texas. There were 7 in New York. 4 were NYPD. John was killed in 2000 in the line of duty during a high speed chase in Staten Island. Guiliani instructed the doctors to keep him alive and sent a chopper upstate with the oldest son (also NYPD) to bring my aunt to back to the hospital. He gave a very moving speech at the funeral and promised my aunt that all of her sons would be pulled from the street and put in detective positions. That promise was never fulfilled. After the funeral, he forgot the entire family existed. His wife (John's) is also a cop he and made many promises to her that were forgotten.
> I lost all respect for that man. Afterall, a man is only as good as his word, right?
> The real kicker here was that Guiliani had the bagpipe squad, the food catered, and all the bells and whistles. He billed John's wife for the entire wake and funeral.


These actions deserve to be known.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

People deserve to know the truth about the lack of character. We don't need to be shocked....just warned.



NJG said:


> We know Guiliani is an a$$hole, he has proven it over and over. If we only knew all the stories about him, such as the one you just told, but at this point I don't think we would be shocked.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Hi, Shirley. You bring up the eternal problem where high-profit corporations are concerned: they get all the benefit, but the ordinary people are left with the risks. It's telling that you say, "The Company was not absolutely sure exactly how much damage it would cause." Why are they permitted to do all this without knowing the damage? In fact, all kinds of things can go wrong with underground pipelines without anyone finding out until a lot of damage is done.
> 
> I have read that extracting tar-sands oil is a very dirty operation. Is it affecting your area? That's another risk that the public has placed on it, while the company ignores it.
> 
> I can't imagine why the US would allow the pipeline to come through, but governments don't always do what's best for citizens. Whatever happened to oil tanker? If they need to send that oil to Texas, why not by sea? Though there have been enough things that have gone wrong with ships. I don't think there's a good solution as long as the world is so oil-dependent.


Oil dependent is the problem. It seems I rad recently that the Koch brothers were spending a lot of money to try to overturn a law, in which state I don't remember, that said a certain percentage of energy had to come from sources such as wind and solar. They had not accomplished it yet, but had continued to try.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm just guessing that it will be more difficult to espouse the male piggie thing. Mothers, wives, sisters, daughters......most would be angered. I think it's more difficult to put down ourselves than it is to put down 'those people.' Know what I mean? I may be completely wrong.



NJG said:


> After President Obama was elected we found out how racist this country still is. If Hillary is elected I bet we find out how many "male chauvinists" we still have in this country. I will guess lots, especially republicans, those old white republicans that are racists have lots of issues.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You got it right. They need to be stopped.



NJG said:


> It all boils down to money. Those tank cars were suppose to be replace or retrofitted to be safer, but it hasn't happened. The Koch brothers don't live near the tracks, so no problem.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for the perspective Shirley. Personally, I am against the pipeline. Some jobs and income to an area are not enough to mitigate dangerous accidents and damage to the environment for all. IMHO



Designer1234 said:


> Shirley here -- I am from Alberta and Ft . MacMurray is north of us where the tar sands are.
> 
> Ours is the Province that is trying to sell the XLpipeline idea to the states. We have had two major train explosions
> where blocks were demolished and people killed recently.
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

NJG said:


> Mark Pryor, democrat for Arkansas running for reelection to the senate was running behind and was expected to loose. He is now 10 points ahead because he has been running adds saying his republican opponent, Tom Cotton, voted to turn Medicare into a voucher system, and raise the eligibility age to 70, like in the Ryan budget. Rachel called it the democrats "Secret Sauce." I hope they all use it wherever possible, but we have a ways to go yet.


And a long way to go we will go.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I say go for it. I'm in a snit today. A huge crane went fishing in my goldfish pond yesterday and ate 18 I'd raised from 'feeder fish' (Now I know why they call them 'feeder fish.' I think they're migrating and looking to stock up for the trip. I'll be glad when they're on their way. I guess they need to eat too.



alcameron said:


> OK, this has nothing to do with politics (I don't think) but is anyone else having a huge influx of great, big crows?? There are huge flocks of them in the trees all over our neighborhood. Now we have one huge one we've named "Nevermore" that comes to our birdbath and scares the other birds away---except for the bluejays that don't scare that easily. Nevermore deposits his peanut shells in our birdbath, has a shower, then comes walking on our patio like he owns the place. He is HUGE! We've lived in this house for 35 years, and we've never seen anything like it. On top of everything else, they are incredibly noisy. Time to eat crow?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And what is the GOP answer? Nothing that makes them look good. Strategy people.



alcameron said:


> If the Democrats are smart they'd spend some money publicizing all the repub incumbents who are in favor of destroying Medicare this way. Medicare is a very popular program.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It should hit the papers etc. Leak. Leak. Leak.



Poor Purl said:


> That Giuliani didn't keep his promises doesn't surprise me. He seems to have an inability to live up to things - remember when he announced he was running for president but only campaigned in Florida? But to have ordered that wake and then charged the widow - surely some assistant should have told him that just wasn't done. What a typically awful story.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The only way oil dependency will change is if becomes too expensive. If you don't like the idea, yell to your legislators, the media, anyone you can get to listen. It takes money to fight back.



Poor Purl said:


> Hi, Shirley. You bring up the eternal problem where high-profit corporations are concerned: they get all the benefit, but the ordinary people are left with the risks. It's telling that you say, "The Company was not absolutely sure exactly how much damage it would cause." Why are they permitted to do all this without knowing the damage? In fact, all kinds of things can go wrong with underground pipelines without anyone finding out until a lot of damage is done.
> 
> I have read that extracting tar-sands oil is a very dirty operation. Is it affecting your area? That's another risk that the public has placed on it, while the company ignores it.
> 
> I can't imagine why the US would allow the pipeline to come through, but governments don't always do what's best for citizens. Whatever happened to oil tanker? If they need to send that oil to Texas, why not by sea? Though there have been enough things that have gone wrong with ships. I don't think there's a good solution as long as the world is so oil-dependent.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Is there any safe way to transport gas? Probably if the modes of transportation were not constructed by the lowest bidders with an aim of the greatest profit for the company.

I remember this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edison,_New_Jersey_natural_gas_explosion

so rail or underground pipeline transportation each have their risks.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

NJG said:


> After President Obama was elected we found out how racist this country still is. If Hillary is elected I bet we find out how many "male chauvinists" we still have in this country. I will guess lots, especially republicans, those old white republicans that are racists have lots of issues.


Probably because deep down in their hearts they understand their own inadequacies and won't admit them. Each one has to be "Jack Armstrong the All American Boy". Real men, who know their strengths and understand their weaknesses, don't have to posture and bluster like the sexist buffoons.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I'm opposed to the pipeline, too. The oil isn't even going to the US, so why should our land be used this way? On the other hand if it's going to come through anyway by train . . . . .


I hope I didn't give you all the idea that I am 'for' the pipeline- I am more against it than for it and so are a lot of Canadians. I believe it could bring along the same results as the deep sea drilling accident a year or so ago - which caused such great oil spills along your coast.

I am mainly saying the our rail situation is becoming critical and from what I understand it is the same in the US. To me we all should be looking at other ways but that doesn't seem to be happening. I admit I dread seeing the trains used. If they moved the lines away from city and town centers and upgraded them, that could make a difference, but then it still doesn't solve the problem of safety or 'spilling'.

I visited a friend to teach a quilting class in Ft. MacMurray 3 years ago -- her husband works for the Tar Sands project -- He took me out to see it and it gave me nightmares. There are square miles and miles and miles of mud - not a tree -- huge trucks - it looked like a space movie. Scared me -- It looked like what we saw when we saw the moon landing -- A whole area in northern Alberta is scarred forever.

I worked for Imperial oil when Oil was discovered here in the 50's We have many oil and gas wells still pumping all over this Province but there has never been anything like the damage at Ft. MacMurray. A whole city (Ft. Mac) has grown from the tar sands. Big money and people coming from all over to work for huge pay/(both American and Canadian Companies.)

It is much like the gold rush. It has all made a huge difference to our Provincial economy.

There are lots of Gas pipelines and there is still a huge amount of oil and gas here. The demand for it is high.

They wanted to build a pipeline to the BC northern coast but BC has not agreed - so that oil or gas (not sure which) can be sold to 
Asia and I understand Australia --

I agree, the average person has no idea of what is actually happening and I doubt we will ever be told.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> That has been my personal feeling. We've seen it. We survived. We learned from it. Now I'm looking ahead. The attention seems melodramatic to me.


Not melodramatic but commercialized and it is disgraceful. The museum is just another 'store' to buy hexed junk as far as I am concerned.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> I say go for it. I'm in a snit today. A huge crane went fishing in my goldfish pond yesterday and ate 18 I'd raised from 'feeder fish' (Now I know why they call them 'feeder fish.' I think they're migrating and looking to stock up for the trip. I'll be glad when they're on their way. I guess they need to eat too.


So sorry, Dame. The same thing happened to us years ago, when we started finding fish heads floating in the tank. In our case, though, the culprit was the family cat, who'd taken to snacking between meals after learning how to get the lid of the aquarium up.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Not melodramatic but commercialized and it is disgraceful. The museum is just another 'store' to buy hexed junk as far as I am concerned.


I find that interesting - I don't think I have ever discussed how the some if not most of New Yorkers feel about 9/11. I watched the program and watched all the news during and after 9/11. Your opinion is from someone who knows what happened to your city and your feelings about it. It is interesting - people from other places are not really aware of what is happening in these types of situations. There is a lot of 'spin' to lots of these kinds of stories.

I am learning something each day. My feelings from someone outside was that it was felt to be important to New Yorkers and Americans as a memorial. I know it must be something that was horrendous and it makes sense that the constant publicity must get tiresome. I have a friend whose sister lived in Columbine- they hate the anniversaries and the reporters still dwelling on the tragedy. I never thought that it must be the same for New YOrkers.

I took it at face value and thought it was wonderful. I am glad you posted your feelings -- as I didn't realize there were those from the city that don't agree.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

""""I can't imagine why the US would allow the pipeline to come through, but governments don't always do what's best for citizens. Whatever happened to oil tanker? If they need to send that oil to Texas, why not by sea? Though there have been enough things that have gone wrong with ships. I don't think there's a good solution as long as the world is so oil-dependent"""".
======================


The problem is that the oil sands are not in a coastal Province we are inland - that is why they are trying to find a way to send it by pipeline to a port in NOrthern BC so that tankers could transport it. Oil is needed in non coastal places. The oil could be shipped to any port, but then how do you get it to the places inland that need it? That is one of the problems. The world wants oil and gas, but only a few places have it - how do you get it from point A to point B without either taking it by train or taking it by pipeline. It isn't feasible to fly it from what I have heard. 

Those that want the pipeline have been trying to find other ways - but the problem is North America alone uses and demands Huge amounts of oil and gas - it has to reach these places by some method. Trucking can move some but not enough to nearly reach the demand by gas guzzling cars, planes etc. People are not willing to give up their vehicles. I still think electricity is the cleanest answer but 
the motor companies are fighting that idea tooth and nail.There is also the problem that many many people are not interested in using electricity for their vehicles. It is costly and it is awkward but i think it could work - but Major business would have to start looking at it seriously.

Someone mentioned gas-- there are a lot of gas pipelines which work well, HOWEVER, the same problem exists with gas -- it is explosive although I don't think it has the same ecological result as a leaked oil pipeline. 

I wonder whether those who are against the pipeline have the answer to what to use instead of oil and gas. That is the argument we read here and from other pro pipeline pundits. That is why I am not sure what the alternative is.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I say go for it. I'm in a snit today. A huge crane went fishing in my goldfish pond yesterday and ate 18 I'd raised from 'feeder fish' (Now I know why they call them 'feeder fish.' I think they're migrating and looking to stock up for the trip. I'll be glad when they're on their way. I guess they need to eat too.


Cranes are so graceful; they think they can get away with anything.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> It should hit the papers etc. Leak. Leak. Leak.


It should have hit the papers when he was still mayor, but that was more than 12 years ago.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Is there any safe way to transport gas? Probably if the modes of transportation were not constructed by the lowest bidders with an aim of the greatest profit for the company.
> 
> I remember this one:
> 
> ...


That was 20 years ago. I wonder how many other such things have happened since then.

Oops, I don't have to wonder. Look at this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pipeline_accidents_in_the_United_States_in_the_21st_century


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> That was 20 years ago. I wonder how many other such things have happened since then.
> 
> Oops, I don't have to wonder. Look at this list:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pipeline_accidents_in_the_United_States_in_the_21st_century


Good heavens -- that should be published in all newspapers!

Scary stuff indeed. I wonder what the answer is.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> """"I can't imagine why the US would allow the pipeline to come through, but governments don't always do what's best for citizens. Whatever happened to oil tanker? If they need to send that oil to Texas, why not by sea? Though there have been enough things that have gone wrong with ships. I don't think there's a good solution as long as the world is so oil-dependent"""".
> ======================
> 
> The problem is that the oil sands are not in a coastal Province we are inland - that is why they are trying to find a way to send it by pipeline to a port in NOrthern BC so that tankers could transport it. Oil is needed in non coastal places. The oil could be shipped to any port, but then how do you get it to the places inland that need it? That is one of the problems. The world wants oil and gas, but only a few places have it - how do you get it from point A to point B without either taking it by train or taking it by pipeline. It isn't feasible to fly it from what I have heard.
> ...


That shows how bad my knowledge of Canadian geography is. I thought that Alberta was way over near BC (my brother-in-law is from Vancouver and is the most polite member of the family).

There are too many excuses found not to develop renewable sources of energy because of all the money behind oil and gas. But I recently read that in Germany, 70% of electricity comes from renewable sources. It's a much smaller country, but that only means to me that we should be able to do at least as well. What ever happened to "good old American knowhow"? Under Jimmy Carter (1976-1980) we were already working on solar power. Then came Reagan, and he put a stop to that. We've barely moved ahead since then.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> That shows how bad my knowledge of Canadian geography is. I thought that Alberta was way over near BC (my brother-in-law is from Vancouver and is the most polite member of the family).
> 
> There are too many excuses found not to develop renewable sources of energy because of all the money behind oil and gas. But I recently read that in Germany, 70% of electricity comes from renewable sources. It's a much smaller country, but that only means to me that we should be able to do at least as well. What ever happened to "good old American knowhow"? Under Jimmy Carter (1976-1980) we were already working on solar power. Then came Reagan, and he put a stop to that. We've barely moved ahead since then.


My own feeling is that oil's so popular because it can be hoarded. Solar energy is available to anyone who cares to put up a panel, but oil can be pumped out of the ground and ultimately put in barrels that only those with ready cash (and lots of it) may touch.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> My own feeling is that oil's so popular because it can be hoarded. Solar energy is available to anyone who cares to put up a panel, but oil can be pumped out of the ground and ultimately put in barrels that only those with ready cash (and lots of it) may touch.


I think your feeling is accurate. Not to mention that it's a dwindling resource and will only become costlier as the supply decreases.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

It is in Kansas, the Koch brothers home state, where they are trying to get rid of a law that requires the state to work towards using 20% wind power by the year 2020. They have bought and paid for someone in the state legislature to try 6 times this year to repeal the law, but haven't been successful. The last time they were 3 votes short. I think they will stop at nothing to make us more dependent on them. They also sent out a mailing proclaiming the utilities would be going up for senior citizens, of course to scare the crap out of them so they push for it too. They are dirty SOB's as far as I am concerned.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/watch/green-energy-opposition-traced-to-kochs-251757635894


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cats do the darndest things....except for Ethel Mertz. I keep waiting for a calamity but nothing in 3 years. She's building for something. I just KNOW it.



susanmos2000 said:


> So sorry, Dame. The same thing happened to us years ago, when we started finding fish heads floating in the tank. In our case, though, the culprit was the family cat, who'd taken to snacking between meals after learning how to get the lid of the aquarium up.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

This is a good example of the value of sharing opinions on KP.



Designer1234 said:


> I find that interesting - I don't think I have ever discussed how the some if not most of New Yorkers feel about 9/11. I watched the program and watched all the news during and after 9/11. Your opinion is from someone who knows what happened to your city and your feelings about it. It is interesting - people from other places are not really aware of what is happening in these types of situations. There is a lot of 'spin' to lots of these kinds of stories.
> 
> I am learning something each day. My feelings from someone outside was that it was felt to be important to New Yorkers and Americans as a memorial. I know it must be something that was horrendous and it makes sense that the constant publicity must get tiresome. I have a friend whose sister lived in Columbine- they hate the anniversaries and the reporters still dwelling on the tragedy. I never thought that it must be the same for New YOrkers.
> 
> I took it at face value and thought it was wonderful. I am glad you posted your feelings -- as I didn't realize there were those from the city that don't agree.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

This one did....several pounds of fresh sushi.



Poor Purl said:


> Cranes are so graceful; they think they can get away with anything.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> My own feeling is that oil's so popular because it can be hoarded. Solar energy is available to anyone who cares to put up a panel, but oil can be pumped out of the ground and ultimately put in barrels that only those with ready cash (and lots of it) may touch.


We are the second Province in from the Pacific Ocean so you were right. The Oil and Gas is our most major asset and has affected the economy here unbelievably. BC is on the coast and we are directly above Montana- and between Sask (east of us ) and BC west of us.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Don't they say, 'it's never too late?' That ought to wipe the smirk off his face. And maybe hit his fee for speeches.



Poor Purl said:


> It should have hit the papers when he was still mayor, but that was more than 12 years ago.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

I think rail travel can be made safer than the pipeline, but it will cost some money. All pipelines are guaranteed to leak and I have read that Trans Canada is, of course not using the best pipes available. The problem seems to be that when they leak, no body knows about it for a long time. All big companies have their bottom line and profits as their main goal instead of the safety of the people involved. There was just a derailment someplace in New York where 3 oil tankers derailed, but none of them leaked. I don't know if they were newer cars or it was just luck, but there are newer cars that would be safer to use for this highly flammable stuff, but until they are required by law to change they won't. I think the department of transportation has to make the request, but not sure if congress has to be involved or not.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

OMG. That list should stop the discussion. Why not?



Poor Purl said:


> That was 20 years ago. I wonder how many other such things have happened since then.
> 
> Oops, I don't have to wonder. Look at this list:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pipeline_accidents_in_the_United_States_in_the_21st_century


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

NJG said:


> I think rail travel can be made safer than the pipeline, but it will cost some money. All pipelines are guaranteed to leak and I have read that Trans Canada is, of course not using the best pipes available. The problem seems to be that when they leak, no body knows about it for a long time. All big companies have their bottom line and profits as their main goal instead of the safety of the people involved. There was just a derailment someplace in New York where 3 oil tankers derailed, but none of them leaked. I don't know if they were newer cars or it was just luck, but there are newer cars that would be safer to use for this highly flammable stuff, but until they are required by law to change they won't. I think the department of transportation has to make the request, but not sure if congress has to be involved or not.


Here in Canada we finally have 'studies' for this problem after two major explosions and a huge amount of press interest.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

IMO wind and solar power need attention to become more competitive cost-wise. They're renewable, clean and dependable. Maybe we can just award the Koch bros a financial interest....just joking.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Southern Alberta has thousands of Wind turbines running constantly and with good results from what I hear. The cover the whole central part of Rural Alberta and I understand are used extensively. I am not sure if the power from them is used by the cities. I will check that out.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I see them all over the West, especially California.



Designer1234 said:


> Southern Alberta has thousands of Wind turbines running constantly and with good results from what I hear. The cover the whole central part of Rural Alberta and I understand are used extensively. I am not sure if the power from them is used by the cities. I will check that out.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Southern Alberta has thousands of Wind turbines running constantly and with good results from what I hear. The cover the whole central part of Rural Alberta and I understand are used extensively. I am not sure if the power from them is used by the cities. I will check that out.


I would rather have a wind turbine on my land than an oil pipeline.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Me too. Solar panels would be good too. Think hot water.



NJG said:


> I would rather have a wind turbine on my land than an oil pipeline.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Speaking of the Kochs, I just found this on Daily Kos.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/15/1299650/-Blam-American-Bridge-Launches-realkochfacts-com?detail=email


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Isn't it interesting Democrats did not raise health questions for Dick Cheney during the Gulf War?



NJG said:


> Speaking of the Kochs, I just found this on Daily Kos.
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/15/1299650/-Blam-American-Bridge-Launches-realkochfacts-com?detail=email


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I find that interesting - I don't think I have ever discussed how the some if not most of New Yorkers feel about 9/11. I watched the program and watched all the news during and after 9/11. Your opinion is from someone who knows what happened to your city and your feelings about it. It is interesting - people from other places are not really aware of what is happening in these types of situations. There is a lot of 'spin' to lots of these kinds of stories.
> 
> I am learning something each day. My feelings from someone outside was that it was felt to be important to New Yorkers and Americans as a memorial. I know it must be something that was horrendous and it makes sense that the constant publicity must get tiresome. I have a friend whose sister lived in Columbine- they hate the anniversaries and the reporters still dwelling on the tragedy. I never thought that it must be the same for New YOrkers.
> 
> I took it at face value and thought it was wonderful. I am glad you posted your feelings -- as I didn't realize there were those from the city that don't agree.


I have mixed feelings. There needs to be something permanent as a memorial so people do not forget and remain vigilant. It resonates to me the same way the Holocaust Museum does. Something that raises such sadness within me that I never want to go there, but still something that needs to be in people's faces so they do not forget such inhumanity, and hopefully work to prevent recurrence.

But I don't want to see commercialization of the memorial. No museum shop selling postcards and memorabilia. No kitchy junk for people to buy. I think that would cheapen the entire ambiance. It needs to be akin to visiting a cemetery or the Tomb of the Unknown to pay homage and say a prayer if one is moved to do so.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I think your feeling is accurate. Not to mention that it's a dwindling resource and will only become costlier as the supply decreases.


We used solar for many years to heat our water and provide a portion of our electricity. It was very nice that there was a tax break for doing so.

Husband took a course at a local school then ended up teaching the course for a few years. We had to put the panels on the roof because of the configuration of our property.

We were able to use it for 10 years. By then the panel frames began to deteriorate and we got too old and unsteady on our feet to go up on the roof twice a year to change the angle of the panels.

It was very worthwhile. I wish circumstances had allowed us to continue. I believe that solar, hydroelectric, and wind power should be used as much as feasible. There is a finite limit to fossil fuels. And there is the factor of dependence on fair commerce with unstable sources.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

NJG said:


> I think rail travel can be made safer than the pipeline, but it will cost some money. All pipelines are guaranteed to leak and I have read that Trans Canada is, of course not using the best pipes available. The problem seems to be that when they leak, no body knows about it for a long time. All big companies have their bottom line and profits as their main goal instead of the safety of the people involved. There was just a derailment someplace in New York where 3 oil tankers derailed, but none of them leaked. I don't know if they were newer cars or it was just luck, but there are newer cars that would be safer to use for this highly flammable stuff, but until they are required by law to change they won't. I think the department of transportation has to make the request, but not sure if congress has to be involved or not.


I am sure there is also the technology to provide safer pipes and sensors on the connectors to bring attention to leaks immediately as they occur. That costs money that eats into profits. And only affects all us real people who live in the danger zones. Need I say more?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> I have mixed feelings. There needs to be something permanent as a memorial so people do not forget and remain vigilant. It resonates to me the same way the Holocaust Museum does. Something that raises such sadness within me that I never want to go there, but still something that needs to be in people's faces so they do not forget such inhumanity, and hopefully work to prevent recurrence.
> 
> But I don't want to see commercialization of the memorial. No museum shop selling postcards and memorabilia. No kitchy junk for people to buy. I think that would cheapen the entire ambiance. It needs to be akin to visiting a cemetery or the Tomb of the Unknown to pay homage and say a prayer if one is moved to do so.


I agree -- I feel that if my husband and I visited New York Iwould want to go to pay our respects to all involved, firefighters, other people who worked so hard to save lives, and mostly the victims.

It is an occurence that we felt up here as if it was us.

we are Canadians but my husband served the United Nations for 23 years in the Army and I would want to go to Arlington as a sign of respect if we were close by. It is the same as those who visit Normandy - My uncle is buried there. I think it is important that we remember.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> Cats do the darndest things....except for Ethel Mertz. I keep waiting for a calamity but nothing in 3 years. She's building for something. I just KNOW it.


Is there a feline "Lucy Ricardo" in the picture? That should bring whatever mischief she's capable of out in the open


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Cats do the darndest things....except for Ethel Mertz. I keep waiting for a calamity but nothing in 3 years. She's building for something. I just KNOW it.


She's hard at work dreaming up her scheme for world domination. I bet she's the Queen of All the Cats.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Is there a feline "Lucy Ricardo" in the picture? That should bring whatever mischief she's capable of out in the open


I lived in a town with a small library for many years. The professional librarian was part time and came in two days a week. He did the buying and administrative work. I think that they needed a certified librarian to qualify for state and federal funding.

There were two local ladies who did the day to day work. Lucy and Ethel. I didn't laugh in public. Sometimes their antics were worthy of a sitcom episode, though.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> I have mixed feelings. There needs to be something permanent as a memorial so people do not forget and remain vigilant. It resonates to me the same way the Holocaust Museum does. Something that raises such sadness within me that I never want to go there, but still something that needs to be in people's faces so they do not forget such inhumanity, and hopefully work to prevent recurrence.
> 
> But I don't want to see commercialization of the memorial. No museum shop selling postcards and memorabilia. No kitchy junk for people to buy. I think that would cheapen the entire ambiance. It needs to be akin to visiting a cemetery or the Tomb of the Unknown to pay homage and say a prayer if one is moved to do so.


Friends told me at lunch today that admission to the 'museum' will be $24 and there is a gift shop. I was asked to go but I could not decline quickly enough.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Friends told me at lunch today that admission to the 'museum' will be $24 and there is a gift shop. I was asked to go but I could not decline quickly enough.


That is such a shame.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I've been begging for a Maine ****. Now I know it has to be an orange one. Thanks.



susanmos2000 said:


> Is there a feline "Lucy Ricardo" in the picture? That should bring whatever mischief she's capable of out in the open


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

She's just so mild and easy-going....or maybe it's just a clever cat game?



Poor Purl said:


> She's hard at work dreaming up her scheme for world domination. I bet she's the Queen of All the Cats.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> I lived in a town with a small library for many years. The professional librarian was part time and came in two days a week. He did the buying and administrative work. I think that they needed a certified librarian to qualify for state and federal funding.
> 
> There were two local ladies who did the day to day work. Lucy and Ethel. I didn't laugh in public. Sometimes their antics were worthy of a sitcom episode, though.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Count me out too.



SQM said:


> Friends told me at lunch today that admission to the 'museum' will be $24 and there is a gift shop. I was asked to go but I could not decline quickly enough.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> I've been begging for a Maine ****. Now I know it has to be an orange one. Thanks.


Yes, if you want a lively cat then a Maine **** is a good bet. We have a mix, and she's a riot--definitely keeps the senior cat on his toes. When she was younger (and smaller) she'd drape herself around his neck like a scarf and bite the heck out of him as he moved about the house. The look on his face (pained resignation) was priceless.


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## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

I don't want to interrupt your discussion on oil production and transportation in your thread. It may have been overlooked, but a significant part of petroleum production is not used for gas. Petroleum based products have also made much of the world a safer, healthier, more affordable and comfortable place to live.

Uses include electricity, medical implements, fiber optics, prosthetic s, pharma, electronic technology, tools, vehicles, safety gear, fiber and fabrics, fooware, cosmetics, agriculture, manufacturing, home building, sewers and plumbing, ...


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

west coast kitty said:


> I don't want to interrupt your discussion on oil production and transportation in your thread. It may have been overlooked, but a significant part of petroleum production is not used for gas. Petroleum based products have also made much of the world a safer, healthier, more affordable and comfortable place to live.
> 
> Uses include electricity, medical implements, fiber optics, prosthetic s, pharma, electronic technology, tools, vehicles, safety gear, fiber and fabrics, fooware, cosmetics, agriculture, manufacturing, home building, sewers and plumbing, ...


Yeah - of course all of our acrylic yarns are petroleum-based.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> She's just so mild and easy-going....or maybe it's just a clever cat game?


Of course she's mild and easy-going. She has all of catdom to cater to her needs.

Nah, she's just a sweetheart. I've had a couple of those.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

west coast kitty said:


> I don't want to interrupt your discussion on oil production and transportation in your thread. It may have been overlooked, but a significant part of petroleum production is not used for gas. Petroleum based products have also made much of the world a safer, healthier, more affordable and comfortable place to live.
> 
> Uses include electricity, medical implements, fiber optics, prosthetic s, pharma, electronic technology, tools, vehicles, safety gear, fiber and fabrics, fooware, cosmetics, agriculture, manufacturing, home building, sewers and plumbing, ...


I think I did a report on this in 7th grade. Except the fooware; they didn't have that when I was a kid. We did have foot*wear*, though.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

west coast kitty said:


> I don't want to interrupt your discussion on oil production and transportation in your thread. It may have been overlooked, but a significant part of petroleum production is not used for gas. Petroleum based products have also made much of the world a safer, healthier, more affordable and comfortable place to live.
> 
> Uses include electricity, medical implements, fiber optics, prosthetic s, pharma, electronic technology, tools, vehicles, safety gear, fiber and fabrics, fooware, cosmetics, agriculture, manufacturing, home building, sewers and plumbing, ...


True --!!!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I think I did a report on this in 7th grade. Except the fooware; they didn't have that when I was a kid. We did have foot*wear*, though.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Have you *really* looked at your list. Approx. 172 leaks or explosions of gas products; Approx. 47 leaks of crude oil; and approx. 49 leaks of processed gasoline or diesel fuel.
> Many were caused by man's neglect rather than a problem with the pipeline.
> 
> It looks like an oil pipeline is the safest way to go. An accident with a truck or a train carrying crude oil has caused more damage than an oil leak. It will be transported one way or another. What is the safest and most economical way to go?


You assume the pipeline oil leak isn't causing as much damage. After someones health is ruined how much is that worth? Besides, they don't know how to clean up tar sands. I think you maybe should visit someplace where there has been a leak and see what the damage is. Rail cars can be made safer and the transportation department needs to enforce the regulations to make it happen. Yes it will cost money, the pipeline does too.
If a lot of them are caused by mans neglect, that won't change cause it hasn't so far. They are interested in their bottom line, not some everyday peoples welfare.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Have you *really* looked at your list. Approx. 172 leaks or explosions of gas products; Approx. 47 leaks of crude oil; and approx. 49 leaks of processed gasoline or diesel fuel.
> Many were caused by man's neglect rather than a problem with the pipeline.
> 
> It looks like an oil pipeline is the safest way to go. An accident with a truck or a train carrying crude oil has caused more damage than an oil leak. It will be transported one way or another. What is the safest and most economical way to go?


(Why do you use "approx." with such specific numbers as 172, 47, and 49, rather than "approx. 170" or "about 50"?)

Man's neglect is more likely with a pipeline, which is out of sight, than with visible transport, though trucks and trains are not ideal, either. Any method of transport would be better if it were built to the safest standards, but that doesn't seem to be happening.

And don't forget incidents like:


> 2000 A 30-inch diameter El Paso Natural Gas pipeline rupture and fire near Carlsbad, New Mexico killed 12 members of an extended family camping over 600 feet (180 m) from the rupture point. The force of the escaping gas created a 51-foot (16 m)-wide crater about 113 feet (34 m) along the pipe. A 49-foot (15 m) section of the pipe was ejected from the crater, in three pieces measuring approximately 3 feet (0.91 m), 20 feet (6.1 m), and 26 feet (7.9 m) in length. The largest piece of pipe was found about 287 feet (87 m) northwest of the crater. The cause of the failure was determined to be severe internal corrosion of that pipeline. On July 26, 2007, a USDOJ Consent Decree was later entered into by the pipeline owner to do pipeline system upgrades to allow better internal pipeline inspections. (August 19, 2000)





> 2014 On March 12, the East Harlem apartment explosion in New York City, New York. NTSB investigators noted that test determined there was natural gas in the soil nearby, indicating that a gas leak had went on for a while before the explosion.





> 2013 Mayflower oil spill occurred when ExxonMobil's 20 inch Pegasus crude oil pipeline spilled near Mayflower, Arkansas on March 29, causing crude to flow through yards and gutters, and towards Lake Conway. Wildlife was coated in some places. Twenty-two homes were evacuated, due to the fumes and fire hazard. Some estimates say the total amount spilled could reach upwards of 300,000 gallons diluted bitumen were spilled. Hook cracks and extremely low impact toughness in the LF-ERW seam were identified as causes of the failure


These may be insignificant to you, but the people who lost their lives or their homes may have disagreed.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> You assume the pipeline oil leak isn't causing as much damage. After someones health is ruined how much is that worth? Besides, they don't know how to clean up tar sands. I think you maybe should visit someplace where there has been a leak and see what the damage is. Rail cars can be made safer and the transportation department needs to enforce the regulations to make it happen. Yes it will cost money, the pipeline does too.
> If a lot of them are caused by mans neglect, that won't change cause it hasn't so far. They are interested in their bottom line, not some everyday peoples welfare.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I sense a disregard of the environment in joeysomma's comments. It is next to impossible to 'clean up' a spill. The words we use minimize the damage. You don't go out with some rags and Mr. Clean and make it all better. Think about it.



NJG said:


> You assume the pipeline oil leak isn't causing as much damage. After someones health is ruined how much is that worth? Besides, they don't know how to clean up tar sands. I think you maybe should visit someplace where there has been a leak and see what the damage is. Rail cars can be made safer and the transportation department needs to enforce the regulations to make it happen. Yes it will cost money, the pipeline does too.
> If a lot of them are caused by mans neglect, that won't change cause it hasn't so far. They are interested in their bottom line, not some everyday peoples welfare.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I sense a disregard of the environment in joeysomma's comments. It is next to impossible to 'clean up' a spill. The words we use minimize the damage. You don't go out with some rags and Mr. Clean and make it all better. Think about it.


According to Rachel Maddow, they use diapers to clean up oil spills. I bet joey and her friends have a lot of those.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Mrs. Somma. She got quite a drumming from Our Purl today. First the approximate comment - how eagle-eyed and logical Our Purl is to have caught that one and then the diaper comment. What a dandy way for me start my day.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> These may be insignificant to you, but the people who lost their lives or their homes may have disagreed.


So true, Purl. And let us not forget that one tanker truck carries 18-20 barrels--the Keystone pipeline is expected to move more than 700,000 _per day_! Just one leak in a decade is enough--too much, in fact.


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## Phyllis Stein (May 18, 2014)

This is another great thread. The initials used for the topic reminded me of "Liberal Ladies who Lunch."
Is it safe to assume that this thread is for fun?


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

There is a heavy economic impact upon the public coffers that can arise when there is a cleanup of toxic wastes. In our state, where there were numerous sites which needed to be cleaned up, the public paid. Companies which had caused the contamination had long gone out of business. And one of the ploys some of the worst of the contaminating companies is to declare bankruptcy and dissolve the business. "Catch us if you can". 

There is one site in a smaller town which is not very affluent where creosote had to be removed, along with a shopping center including the only super market in town and several privately owned businesses. About a half dozen homes were also condemned and demolished. The business owners and home owners suffered great financial distress. It took years before the acreage was declared clean and safe, and by that time the economy had deteriorated to the point where there were no developers to be found. The town continues to lose thousands of dollars of rateables as well.

This is on top of mysterious illnesses suffered by residents of the houses with contaminated soil in the yards and employees of the businesses.

It is not an isolated incident.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> There is a heavy economic impact upon the public coffers that can arise when there is a cleanup of toxic wastes. In our state, where there were numerous sites which needed to be cleaned up, the public paid. Companies which had caused the contamination had long gone out of business. And one of the ploys some of the worst of the contaminating companies is to declare bankruptcy and dissolve the business. "Catch us if you can".
> 
> There is one site in a smaller town which is not very affluent where creosote had to be removed, along with a shopping center including the only super market in town and several privately owned businesses. About a half dozen homes were also condemned and demolished. The business owners and home owners suffered great financial distress. It took years before the acreage was declared clean and safe, and by that time the economy had deteriorated to the point where there were no developers to be found. The town continues to lose thousands of dollars of rateables as well.
> 
> ...


This seems to be the way corporations do business: internalize the profits and externalize the costs. Exxon still hasn't paid all it was supposed to for the Valdez spill that cost the livelihoods of many of the people who lived there, not to mention damage to the environment. And who do you think will pay the price of global climate change once it's become clear(er) that such a thing is happening? Not the industries that caused it, I bet.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> There is a heavy economic impact upon the public coffers that can arise when there is a cleanup of toxic wastes. In our state, where there were numerous sites which needed to be cleaned up, the public paid. Companies which had caused the contamination had long gone out of business. And one of the ploys some of the worst of the contaminating companies is to declare bankruptcy and dissolve the business. "Catch us if you can".
> 
> There is one site in a smaller town which is not very affluent where creosote had to be removed, along with a shopping center including the only super market in town and several privately owned businesses. About a half dozen homes were also condemned and demolished. The business owners and home owners suffered great financial distress. It took years before the acreage was declared clean and safe, and by that time the economy had deteriorated to the point where there were no developers to be found. The town continues to lose thousands of dollars of rateables as well.
> 
> ...


Remember Love Canal? (I don't.)


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> Remember Love Canal? (I don't.)


Remember the Cuyahoga River fire of 1969?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Remember the Cuyahoga River fire of 1969?


I should but I don't. Retell the dreadful tale.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I should but I don't. Retell the dreadful tale.


Here.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> I should but I don't. Retell the dreadful tale.


The Cleveland Historical Society has it in all its dreadful glory:

http://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/63#.U31OvihFrIU


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> The Cleveland Historical Society has it in all its dreadful glory:
> 
> http://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/63#.U31OvihFrIU


Thanks. I don't remember the incident but like they say, If you remember the '60s, you weren't really in it.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> Thanks. I don't remember the incident but like they say, If you remember the '60s, you weren't really in it.


I was just old enough and busy mommying to have missed being part of the 60's scene.

Did do the Village crawl with a few of the girls our Senior year at NYU, complete with all black clothes and ending with a beer at Rocky's. We had a course where we lived in an apartment on West 10th for 5 weeks for a practicum, and we had to escape our duenna at night. And the drinking age was 18. I didn't hit 21 until just before graduation.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> I was just old enough and busy mommying to have missed being part of the 60's scene.
> 
> Did do the Village crawl with a few of the girls our Senior year at NYU, complete with all black clothes and ending with a beer at Rocky's. We had a course where we lived in an apartment on West 10th for 5 weeks for a practicum, and we had to escape our duenna at night. And the drinking age was 18. I didn't hit 21 until just before graduation.


Oh. So you spent time here. That's nice. And you were in the village just at the right time! Jealous!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Was the time of the Beatnik's or the new hippie craze?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Remember the Cuyahoga River fire of 1969?


Oh my gosh! I remember my parents talking about that. The river was very toxic with varying chemicals, but no one thought that it would be flammable!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Thanks for the song. However, I could not understand some of the lyrics so I will need to read something instead.


The lyrics were right there, under the video. It's impossible to understand Randy Newman without a scorecard. The Cuyahoga River, in Cleveland, caught fire and burned for days.

Lyrics:

There's a red moon rising
On the Cuyahoga River
Rolling into Cleveland to the lake

There's a red moon rising
ON the Cuyahoga River
Rolling into Cleveland to the lake

There's an oil barge winding
Down the Cuyahoga River
Rolling into Cleveland to the lake

There's an oil barge winding
Down the Cuyahoga River
Rolling into Cleveland to the lake

Cleveland, city of light, city of magic
Cleveland, city of light, you're calling me
Cleveland, even now I can remember
'Cause the Cuyahoga River
Goes smokin' through my dreams

Burn on, big river, burn on
Burn on, big river, burn on
Now the Lord can make you tumble
And the Lord can make you turn
And the Lord can make you overflow
But the Lord can't make you burn

Burn on, big river, burn on
Burn on, big river, burn on


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> The Cleveland Historical Society has it in all its dreadful glory:
> 
> http://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/63#.U31OvihFrIU


Certainly a more complete description, but I can never resist Randy Newman.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> The lyrics were right there, under the video. It's impossible to understand Randy Newman without a scorecard. The Cuyahoga River, in Cleveland, caught fire and burned for days.
> 
> Lyrics:
> 
> ...


I remember that song! They used it for the movie "Major League".


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Was the time of the Beatnik's or the new hippie craze?


The Beatniks started in the mid 50s and as I remember, were there until mid to late 60s.  I was called a Beatnik in the 50s when I was a teenager.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Oh my gosh! I remember my parents talking about that. The river was very toxic with varying chemicals, but no one thought that it would be flammable!


I believe the river has caught fire several times. There was a fire in 1952 when the flames engulfed a ship on the river. I do not think there are many photos of the 69 fire, but changes were made after that fire to improve environmental safety.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I remember that song! They used it for the movie "Major League".


I never saw it. Is it a good movie?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> The Beatniks started in the mid 50s and as I remember, were there until mid to late 60s. I was called a Beatnik in the 50s when I was a teenager.


Sigh.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Was the time of the Beatnik's or the new hippie craze?


More the beatniks. You still saw many suits at the School of Law and School of Commerce. In the School of Ed, depended on your major how you dressed. The IA guys were in chinos and flannels in the summer, except for the ones you just knew were getting out of the classroom and into admin as soon as they got their MSs. Home Ec was expected to dress like "ladies" and Business Ed like accountants. I was at NYU from 1953 through 1957, then at Hunter part time through 1961 to get my MS while I was teaching and learning to keep house.

Now it looks as if all the college kids are in jeans or shorts and tees. Much more comfortable. But when we took the subway to school from the outer boroughs, we tried to look like the people going to work in offices. And when we walked into B. Altman or Bond's, we wanted to look as if we belonged. My group got there at the last gasp of John Wanamaker and shopped the close outs.

They were good years.

I was already married and working when guys started growing their hair and girls stopped wearing bras.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> More the beatniks. You still saw many suits at the School of Law and School of Commerce. In the School of Ed, depended on your major how you dressed. The IA guys were in chinos and flannels in the summer, except for the ones you just knew were getting out of the classroom and into admin as soon as they got their MSs. Home Ec was expected to dress like "ladies" and Business Ed like accountants. I was at NYU from 1953 through 1957, then at Hunter part time through 1961 to get my MS while I was teaching and learning to keep house.
> 
> Now it looks as if all the college kids are in jeans or shorts and tees. Much more comfortable. But when we took the subway to school from the outer boroughs, we tried to look like the people going to work in offices. And when we walked into B. Altman or Bond's, we wanted to look as if we belonged. My group got there at the last gasp of John Wanamaker and shopped the close outs.
> 
> ...


I adore your Mad Men memories of NYC.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's fun for the Libs, and fuel for the fire for RWNs. Welcome.



Phyllis Stein said:


> This is another great thread. The initials used for the topic reminded me of "Liberal Ladies who Lunch."
> Is it safe to assume that this thread is for fun?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

This is crime without justice. Infuriates me.



MarilynKnits said:


> There is a heavy economic impact upon the public coffers that can arise when there is a cleanup of toxic wastes. In our state, where there were numerous sites which needed to be cleaned up, the public paid. Companies which had caused the contamination had long gone out of business. And one of the ploys some of the worst of the contaminating companies is to declare bankruptcy and dissolve the business. "Catch us if you can".
> 
> There is one site in a smaller town which is not very affluent where creosote had to be removed, along with a shopping center including the only super market in town and several privately owned businesses. About a half dozen homes were also condemned and demolished. The business owners and home owners suffered great financial distress. It took years before the acreage was declared clean and safe, and by that time the economy had deteriorated to the point where there were no developers to be found. The town continues to lose thousands of dollars of rateables as well.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> This seems to be the way corporations do business: internalize the profits and externalize the costs. Exxon still hasn't paid all it was supposed to for the Valdez spill that cost the livelihoods of many of the people who lived there, not to mention damage to the environment. And who do you think will pay the price of global climate change once it's become clear(er) that such a thing is happening? Not the industries that caused it, I bet.


Good bet.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I do. (I think we're the same age. Were you just having fun and not reading the papers? Great time to grow up, wasn't it?)



SQM said:


> Remember Love Canal? (I don't.)


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I was in high school in the area. I do remember it well.



MarilynKnits said:


> Remember the Cuyahoga River fire of 1969?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for the reminder Purl.



Poor Purl said:


> Here.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Excellent perspective, Marilyn. Environmentalism was alive and growing in the area before the fire, and there were many fires before 1969.



MarilynKnits said:


> The Cleveland Historical Society has it in all its dreadful glory:
> 
> http://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/63#.U31OvihFrIU


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Where were you having all the fun? Big cities? I was in a town more influenced by the 1950's and I was a rebel.



SQM said:


> Thanks. I don't remember the incident but like they say, If you remember the '60s, you weren't really in it.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

As I just said, I was in high school in a small town rebelling against the 1950's. Trying to figure it all out.



MarilynKnits said:


> I was just old enough and busy mommying to have missed being part of the 60's scene.
> 
> Did do the Village crawl with a few of the girls our Senior year at NYU, complete with all black clothes and ending with a beer at Rocky's. We had a course where we lived in an apartment on West 10th for 5 weeks for a practicum, and we had to escape our duenna at night. And the drinking age was 18. I didn't hit 21 until just before graduation.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

As I recall the Beatnik's came first as an influence from NYC mainly. The hippies came later and generated a true generation gap.



BrattyPatty said:


> Was the time of the Beatnik's or the new hippie craze?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

What kind of music did you listen to? What was it like growing up in OZ (assuming you did)?



EveMCooke said:


> The Beatniks started in the mid 50s and as I remember, were there until mid to late 60s. I was called a Beatnik in the 50s when I was a teenager.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And people were actually working on cleanup before that. For years it was accepted that pollution was necessary.



EveMCooke said:


> I believe the river has caught fire several times. There was a fire in 1952 when the flames engulfed a ship on the river. I do not think there are many photos of the 69 fire, but changes were made after that fire to improve environmental safety.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Did you manage to burn your bra?



MarilynKnits said:


> More the beatniks. You still saw many suits at the School of Law and School of Commerce. In the School of Ed, depended on your major how you dressed. The IA guys were in chinos and flannels in the summer, except for the ones you just knew were getting out of the classroom and into admin as soon as they got their MSs. Home Ec was expected to dress like "ladies" and Business Ed like accountants. I was at NYU from 1953 through 1957, then at Hunter part time through 1961 to get my MS while I was teaching and learning to keep house.
> 
> Now it looks as if all the college kids are in jeans or shorts and tees. Much more comfortable. But when we took the subway to school from the outer boroughs, we tried to look like the people going to work in offices. And when we walked into B. Altman or Bond's, we wanted to look as if we belonged. My group got there at the last gasp of John Wanamaker and shopped the close outs.
> 
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> As I recall the Beatnik's came first as an influence from NYC mainly. The hippies came later and generated a true generation gap.


There were no beatniks in NYC. There were the beats - Jack Kerouac, Allan Ginsburg, and the others they hung out with - but they were well beyond their teens in the 50s. Then there were the kids who tried to imitate them. It was these kids that were given the name beatniks by some radio personality, I think. The hippies named themselves, about 10 years later. They were fun, in addition to being troublemakers.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Did you manage to burn your bra?


Bra-burning was supposedly a feminist thing, which was in the 1970s. As far as I know, there were very few burned bras, if any.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I couldn't quite let go to be a hippie, but I loved them, and their music.



Poor Purl said:


> There were no beatniks in NYC. There were the beats - Jack Kerouac, Allan Ginsburg, and the others they hung out with - but they were well beyond their teens in the 50s. Then there were the kids who tried to imitate them. It was these kids that were given the name beatniks by some radio personality, I think. The hippies named themselves, about 10 years later. They were fun, in addition to being troublemakers.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I meant it more as a state of mind, a femme thing.



Poor Purl said:


> Bra-burning was supposedly a feminist thing, which was in the 1970s. As far as I know, there were very few burned bras, if any.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I meant it more as a state of mind, a femme thing.


That's all it turned out to be, though certain anti-feminists made a big deal about it.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you Phylis Schaffley, who left her family to others and lived the life of feminism while criticizing it.



Poor Purl said:


> That's all it turned out to be, though certain anti-feminists made a big deal about it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Thank you Phylis Schaffley, who left her family to others and lived the life of feminism while criticizing it.


Are you implying that there's a conservative who's a hypocrite?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> I do. (I think we're the same age. Were you just having fun and not reading the papers? Great time to grow up, wasn't it?)


Parts of the 60s were fun but the backdrop was always tragic with the war and the fight for civil wars. So it was very mixed for me.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> Where were you having all the fun? Big cities? I was in a town more influenced by the 1950's and I was a rebel.


Chicago, college, hippy etc. And parents who expected me to go to demonstrations.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> Did you manage to burn your bra?


I hate that ridiculous image that the media latched on to. We were very serious about changing expectations for women during the late 60s-70s.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Do you find that a shocking thought?



Poor Purl said:


> Are you implying that there's a conservative who's a hypocrite?


Sarcasm alert.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I lived near Kent State. I remember being shocked and upset by many things.



SQM said:


> Parts of the 60s were fun but the backdrop was always tragic with the war and the fight for civil wars. So it was very mixed for me.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Great parents. Mine just shook their heads and tried not to fight with me.



SQM said:


> Chicago, college, hippy etc. And parents who expected me to go to demonstrations.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Parts of the 60s were fun but the backdrop was always tragic with the war and the fight for civil wars. So it was very mixed for me.


And the assassinations. It was mixed for the whole country.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Do you find that a shocking thought?
> 
> Sarcasm alert.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I lived near Kent State. I remember being shocked and upset by many things.


Kent State was probably the most shocking incident of all. Who would have dreamed our own soldiers would shoot unarmed children?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Exactly. And the callousness of those who hated hippies so much that they defended the action.



Poor Purl said:


> Kent State was probably the most shocking incident of all. Who would have dreamed our own soldiers would shoot unarmed children?


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> What kind of music did you listen to? What was it like growing up in OZ (assuming you did)?


Yes, I grew up in the land down under. I have always been a classical music fan, especially Northern European. I guess this would be due to the fact that my mother only listened to two radio stations, 6WF and 6WN, both Australian Broadcasting Stations, no commercials, and they played classical music. She said her radio was a special one as it would not receive commercial radio stations. We did not get TV in Perth until the end of 1959 and later in the country towns. I loved Sibelius and Stravinsky and adored Tchaikovsky. I always thought Smetana was so light hearted and gay (in the old sense of the word). But I also listened to Bill Haley and the Comets and the other rock n roll bands. I was never a fan of Elvis though. At the time we had a host of Aussie country music bands. They would not be known in America. Tex Morton, one whose name escapes me at the moment (old age) but he became famous with 'the pub with no beer', plus someone who I will not mention at the moment but he sang about tieing his kangaroo down and made the wobble board famous. Just came to me, the guy who wrote about the pub with no beer, our very own Slim Dusty. No I was not a great fan of the country and western style although a lot of the local lads were. I also loved Orf. You could say that my tastes were pretty universal. One school of music that I have never liked is jazz, it sets my teeth on edge.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> Did you manage to burn your bra?


I did not burn my bra but did stop wearing them, and also stopped wearing those hated roll ons or step in girdles.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Exactly. And the callousness of those who hated hippies so much that they defended the action.


I think it was free speech they hated, hippies or not.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Kent State was probably the most shocking incident of all. Who would have dreamed our own soldiers would shoot unarmed children?


Who gave the orders? Then you may realize it was not much of a shock.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Good girl. It greatly improves our disposition. Works for me.



EveMCooke said:


> I did not burn my bra but did stop wearing them, and also stopped wearing those hated roll ons or step in girdles.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Governor Rhodes. May he rest in hell.



SQM said:


> Who gave the orders? Then you may realize it was not much of a shock.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Who gave the orders? Then you may realize it was not much of a shock.


I could look it up. The soldiers were National Guard, so it was a state thing, but I still find it shocking that they would shoot to kill their own countrymen. Soldiers don't have all their morality removed when they volunteer.

3 minutes later

Wikipedia says it was Republican Governor Jim Rhodes. I don't know why that makes it less shocking. The Wikipedia article is very interesting and very well written. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

*Eyewitness accounts*
Two men who were present related what they saw.

Unidentified speaker 1:

Suddenly, they turned around, got on their knees, as if they were ordered to, they did it all together, aimed. And personally, I was standing there saying, they're not going to shoot, they can't do that. If they are going to shoot, it's going to be blank.

Unidentified speaker 2:

The shots were definitely coming my way, because when a bullet passes your head, it makes a crack. I hit the ground behind the curve, looking over. I saw a student hit. He stumbled and fell, to where he was running towards the car. Another student tried to pull him behind the car, bullets were coming through the windows of the car.

As this student fell behind the car, I saw another student go down, next to the curb, on the far side of the automobile, maybe 25 or 30 yards from where I was lying. It was maybe 25, 30, 35 seconds of sporadic firing.

The firing stopped. I lay there maybe 10 or 15 seconds. I got up, I saw four or five students lying around the lot. By this time, it was like mass hysteria. Students were crying, they were screaming for ambulances. I heard some girl screaming, "They didn't have blank, they didn't have blank," no, they didn't.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I could look it up. The soldiers were National Guard, so it was a state thing, but I still find it shocking that they would shoot to kill their own countrymen. Soldiers don't have all their morality removed when they volunteer.


Soldiers are mentally torn down then rebuilt as killers during basic training. And I think there was still a draft in 1970. What would have been the reprisal if the soldiers did not fire? They were just following orders. :hunf:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Gov. James Rhodes of Ohio gave the order. No problem except for the dead or wounded.



SQM said:


> Soldiers are mentally torn down then rebuilt as killers during basic training. And I think there was still a draft in 1970. What would have been the reprisal if the soldiers did not fire? They were just following orders. :hunf:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No students had weapons. (The Gov said they were throwing rocks. Some would say military rifles and stones are not equal weapons.)



Poor Purl said:


> I could look it up. The soldiers were National Guard, so it was a state thing, but I still find it shocking that they would shoot to kill their own countrymen. Soldiers don't have all their morality removed when they volunteer.
> 
> 3 minutes later
> 
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Soldiers are mentally torn down then rebuilt as killers during basic training. And I think there was still a draft in 1970. What would have been the reprisal if the soldiers did not fire? They were just following orders. :hunf:


Yes, there was still a draft. But isn't it against the law for the military to go after unarmed citizens? I mean against the Constitution.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> No students had weapons. (The Gov said they were throwing rocks. Some would say military rifles and stones are not equal weapons.)


A couple of the people shot were just bystanders or walking past. They weren't very careful about whom they shot - just firing into a crowd.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Yes, there was still a draft. But isn't it against the law for the military to go after unarmed citizens? I mean against the Constitution.


I don't remember any of the soldiers having charges brought against them. The Military does as it pleases. And certainly Kent State is a good reminder that the government can and does turn against its citizens. Never get too comfortable.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I don't remember any of the soldiers having charges brought against them. The Military does as it pleases. And certainly Kent State is a good reminder that the government can and does turn against its citizens. Never get too comfortable.


Some were charged (I really recommend the Wikipedia article), but charges were dropped against all. A civil suit was also brought against the mayor, the governor, and others. Eventually (i.e., after several appeals) they were ordered to pay a few hundred thousand to the families of the murdered kid.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

This is for Eve and the Princess Poopchook



NYTimes said:


> *A Hedge Fund Highflier Comes Back to Earth*
> By DANNY HAKIM MAY 22, 2014
> 
> Crispin Odey plans for an elaborate chicken coop brought attacks in the news media.
> ...


The middle part of the article can be found at http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/05/22/a-hedge-fund-highflier-comes-back-to-earth/?module=BlogPost-Title&version=Blog%20Main&contentCollection=Hedge%20Funds&action=Click&pgtype=Blogs&region=Body


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> This is for Eve and the Princess Poopchook
> 
> The middle part of the article can be found at http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/05/22/a-hedge-fund-highflier-comes-back-to-earth/?module=BlogPost-Title&version=Blog%20Main&contentCollection=Hedge%20Funds&action=Click&pgtype=Blogs®ion=Body


Gee. I want to live in that chicken coop. Seems better than my place and I have laid a few eggs in my life.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Who gave the orders? Then you may realize it was not much of a shock.


How can you possibly say that knowing who gave the order to shoot at Kent State on May 4, 1970 could diminish the shock? Yes, there were violent demonstrations in the few days before the Kent State Massacre. Rocks were throne at all these demonstrations. ROCKS ARE NOT BULLETS. The response of the local law enforcement, the Ohio governor and the National Guard were outrageously wrong.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I did not burn my bra but did stop wearing them, and also stopped wearing those hated roll ons or step in girdles.


I dropped garter belts as soon as I got out of my parents' house. Mother was a great proponent of corsets, girdles, etc. I preferred breathing. Would you believe panty hose were an improvement to what came before?


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> I dropped garter belts as soon as I got out of my parents' house. Mother was a great proponent of corsets, girdles, etc. I preferred breathing. Would you believe panty hose were an improvement to what came before?


I loved garter belts. Pantyhose assisted yeast infections.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> How can you possibly say that knowing who gave the order to shoot at Kent State on May 4, 1970 could diminish the shock? Yes, there were violent demonstrations in the few days before the Kent State Massacre. Rocks were throne at all these demonstrations. ROCKS ARE NOT BULLETS. The response of the local law enforcement, the Ohio governor and the National Guard were outrageously wrong.


I am more suspicious of government than you are. The soldiers were following the orders of some rat and I was interested to remember who that was. That's all, My darling Maid.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> I loved garter belts. Pantyhose assisted yeast infections.


Do you remember wearing sanitary pads with a belt? That was even worse than panty hose which I have eschewed for years.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Gee. I want to live in that chicken coop. Seems better than my place and I have laid a few eggs in my life.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> I dropped garter belts as soon as I got out of my parents' house. Mother was a great proponent of corsets, girdles, etc. I preferred breathing. Would you believe panty hose were an improvement to what came before?


My mother was like that, too. She was shocked the first time she saw me put a dress on without a girdle.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Do you remember wearing sanitary pads with a belt? That was even worse than panty hose which I have eschewed for years.


Okay, this belongs in the Real War on Women. :roll: :roll: :roll:


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Okay, this belongs in the Real War on Women. :roll: :roll: :roll:


Ha Ha My Precious Purl


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

SQM said:


> Do you remember wearing sanitary pads with a belt? That was even worse than panty hose which I have eschewed for years.


Yes. We are dating ourselves.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Yes. We are dating ourselves.


"I love myself, I think I'm grand.
When I go to the movies I hold my hand.
I put my arm around my waist
And when I get fresh I slap my face."


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> "I love myself, I think I'm grand.
> When I go to the movies I hold my hand.
> I put my arm around my waist
> And when I get fresh I slap my face."


I remember that too!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> I remember that too!


Then you're older than you look. And dating yourself.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Then you're older than you look. And dating yourself.


Most people think I am 10 years younger than my prideful 63.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Most people think I am 10 years younger than my prideful 63.


There. I knew you looked younger than you are! Prideful 63 indeed!


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

New game for Friday afternoon.
Who said these bits of wisdom?

Jesus hates taxes!
Gun control will lead to bestiality!
The American Jobs Act is an attack on marriage!
Obama talking to BP about the 2010 oil spill is just like Hitler!
Foreign aid to China will lead them to sell us food with cats and dogs in it!
Oil pipelines are good for wildlife!
Hate crimes legislation leads to necrophilia!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I got an email that got me thinking today. Perhaps some of you saw it. 

It asked for a vote for the worst Republican. It only gave three choices!!! 

Lets have some fun. Who is the worst Republican in your opinion and why? We will have no limit on the number of entries. I'm going to wait a bit and clear my mind. Looking forward to your comments. 

(This is the League of Liberal Ladies, so I think we should exercise our free speech.)


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

damemary said:


> I got an email that got me thinking today. Perhaps some of you saw it.
> 
> It asked for a vote for the worst Republican. It only gave three choices!!!
> 
> ...


Dame. I just couldn't wait! (See above)


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> New game for Friday afternoon.
> Who said these bits of wisdom?
> 
> Jesus hates taxes!
> ...


Is it all one person, or does this test have 7 questions?

Wait, is it Louis Gohmert? He'll say anything.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> New game for Friday afternoon.
> Who said these bits of wisdom?
> 
> Jesus hates taxes!
> ...


Charleton Heston?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Is it all one person, or does this test have 7 questions?
> 
> Wait, is it Louis Gohmert? He'll say anything.


Yes, you got it already. Too easy! He's one of the worst! After watching the righties trash Obama for 3 years on this forum, I think it's pay back time. Except I can't sit here for long.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I got an email that got me thinking today. Perhaps some of you saw it.
> 
> It asked for a vote for the worst Republican. It only gave three choices!!!
> 
> ...


I never get good emails like that. I have a few candidates, both male and female.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> I got an email that got me thinking today. Perhaps some of you saw it.
> 
> It asked for a vote for the worst Republican. It only gave three choices!!!
> 
> ...


Every time I watch TV I come up with a new dastardly republican. Can I nominate someone from this site?

Ted Cruz for today. You have to ask why????


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Charleton Heston?


...and his cold dead hands? I think Clint Eastwood had them attached to his own arms.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Yes, you got it already. Too easy! He's one of the worst! After watching the righties trash Obama for 3 years on this forum, I think it's pay back time. Except I can't sit here for long.


It shouldn't take long to trash the whole GOP.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It shouldn't take long to trash the whole GOP.


Everything I come up with is too easy.

Who accused Harry Reid of poisoning the atmosphere of the senate?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I dislike Mitch, the turtle. I shouldn't be unkind, a person can't help the way s/he looks.
And how about "turd blossom?" Spreading blatant lies about Hillary's health.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

And how about John Boehner for caving to a certain segment of the House and not having the courage to do what's right?


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

alcameron said:


> New game for Friday afternoon.
> Who said these bits of wisdom?
> 
> Jesus hates taxes!
> ...


Ronald Reagan????????? Probably not him. He did say something to the effect of: Those environmentalists will not be happy until they turn the White House into a bird's nest. I am going to look this up for the exact words.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

How about this one?

Our movement at its core is an intellectual movement.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Ronald Reagan????????? Probably not him. He did say something to the effect of: Those environmentalists will not be happy until they turn the White House into a bird's nest. I am going to look this up for the exact words.


Louie Gohmert aka Gomer Pyle


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> I got an email that got me thinking today. Perhaps some of you saw it.
> 
> It asked for a vote for the worst Republican. It only gave three choices!!!
> 
> ...


How about the New Jersey Robin Hood in reverse? Chris Christie who takes from the poor to give to the rich.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> This is for Eve and the Princess Poopchook
> 
> The middle part of the article can be found at http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/05/22/a-hedge-fund-highflier-comes-back-to-earth/?module=BlogPost-Title&version=Blog%20Main&contentCollection=Hedge%20Funds&action=Click&pgtype=Blogs®ion=Body


Both the Princess and I thank you for your information. We have discussed this project at length and Her Majesty is, at this moment, digesting the information. She will, in the not too distant future, let me know what she thinks about this structure. She did raise questions regarding the decor and internal lighting. She does favour natural lighting wherever possible and also favours incandescent lighting as opposed to fluorescence lighting. One major question related to the choice of air conditioning, she prefers reverse cycles and is not enamoured with evaporative air conditioning. But I think she may be contacting the said gentleman and arranging a meeting where she can discuss the matter at length. She has also advised me to thank you for your thoughtful consideration of her needs with regard to her accommodation.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> I dropped garter belts as soon as I got out of my parents' house. Mother was a great proponent of corsets, girdles, etc. I preferred breathing. Would you believe panty hose were an improvement to what came before?


I remember the original panty hose of the mid 60s, the panty part came up to your armpits on some of them and some of them had pretty, lacy panties attached. I remember discussing them with work colleagues and we were not in favour of them at the start. The main objection being replacing the entire garment if you only laddered one leg. We would always buy the same brand and colour and they often came in packs with three legs. Mind you, at the time they were also producing some very cheap stockings, which we labelled 'lucky dip stockings'. Sometimes a packet would contain one stocking designed for a 6 ft woman and its mate would barely fit a woman who was only 5 ft tall. But, in the end we were converted. I have not worn stocking or panty hose for nearly 20 years. I still have some unopened packets of panty hose in the cupboard. I also have several pairs of 1950s stockings, in their original boxes. Shaped leg, reinforced heel and toe, seam up the back, they are so delicate, but so beautiful. I do not think they make these any today. About 10 years ago my daughter in law was admiring them, so I gave her a pair. I told her that they were really collector's items as they were no longer made. I did not expect her to wear them, but she did. She complained that she discovered when she tried to wear them to work that they were way too short for her so she threw them in the rubbish bin in disgust. I also remember when they introduced the 'ladder proof' or 'mesh' stockings.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Everything I come up with is too easy.
> 
> Who accused Harry Reid of poisoning the atmosphere of the senate?


Didn't they all? They won't give that guy a break.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> Do you remember wearing sanitary pads with a belt? That was even worse than panty hose which I have eschewed for years.


Now we are going back to the dark ages. You are probably all to young to remember the days when you had to make your own, and wash and reuse them. Boy, how I hated that.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> "I love myself, I think I'm grand.
> When I go to the movies I hold my hand.
> I put my arm around my waist
> And when I get fresh I slap my face."


    :XD:


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I remember the original panty hose of the mid 60s, the panty part came up to your armpits on some of them and some of them had pretty, lacy panties attached. I remember discussing them with work colleagues and we were not in favour of them at the start. The main objection being replacing the entire garment if you only laddered one leg. We would always buy the same brand and colour and they often came in packs with three legs. Mind you, at the time they were also producing some very cheap stockings, which we labelled 'lucky dip stockings'. Sometimes a packet would contain one stocking designed for a 6 ft woman and its mate would barely fit a woman who was only 5 ft tall. But, in the end we were converted. I have not worn stocking or panty hose for nearly 20 years. I still have some unopened packets of panty hose in the cupboard. I also have several pairs of 1950s stockings, in their original boxes. Shaped leg, reinforced heel and toe, seam up the back, they are so delicate, but so beautiful. I do not think they make these any today. About 10 years ago my daughter in law was admiring them, so I gave her a pair. I told her that they were really collector's items as they were no longer made. I did not expect her to wear them, but she did. She complained that she discovered when she tried to wear them to work that they were way too short for her so she threw them in the rubbish bin in disgust. I also remember when they introduced the 'ladder proof' or 'mesh' stockings.


Don't wear that stuff now, either! I do remember wearing those panty girdles because your "cheeks" weren't supposed to jiggle. I was as skinny as a broom and I really had no cheeks to jiggle, but I wore that thing just the same!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I dislike Mitch, the turtle. I shouldn't be unkind, a person can't help the way s/he looks.
> And how about "turd blossom?" Spreading blatant lies about Hillary's health.


Turd blossom was my first pick.

DNA Testing Proves Karl Rove a Descendant of Satan

The Center for Ancestral Transparency today released the results of two DNA studies commissioned in mid-2007 regarding the ancestry of Karl Rove, former chief political advisor to President Bush. In a statement posted on its website the Center's lead researcher, Joe Lange, stated: "We can now confirm what many of us have long suspected: Karl Rove is in fact a descendant of Satan.

http://www.themishmash.com/2008/02/exclusive-karl.html


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> And how about John Boehner for caving to a certain segment of the House and not having the courage to do what's right?


The problem with Boehner is that he's a nebbish. He'd be more like the 2nd or 3rd worse Repug.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> How about this one?
> 
> Our movement at its core is an intellectual movement.


ding ding ding

Sarah Palin!!!!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Both the Princess and I thank you for your information. We have discussed this project at length and Her Majesty is, at this moment, digesting the information. She will, in the not too distant future, let me know what she thinks about this structure. She did raise questions regarding the decor and internal lighting. She does favour natural lighting wherever possible and also favours incandescent lighting as opposed to fluorescence lighting. One major question related to the choice of air conditioning, she prefers reverse cycles and is not enamoured with evaporative air conditioning. But I think she may be contacting the said gentleman and arranging a meeting where she can discuss the matter at length. She has also advised me to thank you for your thoughtful consideration of her needs with regard to her accommodation.


It was absolutely clear, when I opened the newspaper this morning, that she would be the grandest inhabitant of the house. The builder sounds like a nice person. I'm sure all of the Princess's objections can be rectified. But wouldn't you miss her if she moved to England?


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> I got an email that got me thinking today. Perhaps some of you saw it.
> 
> It asked for a vote for the worst Republican. It only gave three choices!!!
> 
> ...


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It was absolutely clear, when I opened the newspaper this morning, that she would be the grandest inhabitant of the house. The builder sounds like a nice person. I'm sure all of the Princess's objections can be rectified. But wouldn't you miss her if she moved to England?


As her indentured servant I would be forced to accompany her to The united Kingdom, to ensure her needs are fully cared for. She can be such a fussy and demanding little madam at times. I am certain she is a descendent of Queen Victoria.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Now we are going back to the dark ages. You are probably all to young to remember the days when you had to make your own, and wash and reuse them. Boy, how I hated that.


My mother told me she wore "rags" when she first started. To what would you attach the "rags"? Cooke - you will be our archivist and historian.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Don't wear that stuff now, either! I do remember wearing those panty girdles because your "cheeks" weren't supposed to jiggle. I was as skinny as a broom and I really had no cheeks to jiggle, but I wore that thing just the same!


I remember panty girdles! I also was very, very small and tried to wear one but it was so uncomfortable. Mostly I would admire it in the drawer.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> My mother told me she wore "rags" when she first started. To what would you attach the "rags"? Cooke - you will be our archivist and historian.


I'm not sure you can "wear" rags--rather, you fold them into a rectangle, place them in your panties, and hope to goodness they don't fall out!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm not sure you can "wear" rags--rather, you fold them into a rectangle, place them in your panties, and hope to goodness they don't fall out!


You have solved a life-long mystery for me.

Now my question is - before the 19th century, women did not wear panties - just various other slip-type garments. How would they have managed then?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> You have solved a life-long mystery for me.
> 
> Now my question is - before the 19th century, women did not wear panties - just various other slip-type garments. How would they have managed then?


Probably adopted the penguin walk for three or four days.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Probably adopted the penguin walk for three or four days.


Ha Ha - too funny Mos. I am interested in a real answer. Is there anyone on this thread who remembers the 18th century?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> Ha Ha - too funny Mos. I am interested in a real answer. Is there anyone on this thread who remembers the 18th century?


Seriously, I bet menstruation was much less a big deal in earlier periods thanks to multiple pregnancies, prolonged breast-feeding, and poor diets. I think that every-28-days-twelve-times a year stuff is pretty much a modern development. Possibly women only got their periods a few times a year (if that), and the flow was so scanty that an occasional trip to the outhouse and a few swipes with a cloth was sufficient.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Seriously, I bet menstruation was much less a big deal in earlier periods thanks to multiple pregnancies, prolonged breast-feeding, and poor diets. I think that every-28-days-twelve-times a year stuff is pretty much a modern development. Possibly women only got their periods a few times a year (if that), and the flow was so scanty that an occasional trip to the outhouse and a few swipes with a cloth was sufficient.


Dear Dr. Mos,

What a fine, well-reasoned response. It makes tons of sense since women did not get their periods until 16-18 - then off to the marriage cage. Does your description sound preferable or not?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> Dear Dr. Mos,
> 
> What a fine, well-reasoned response. It makes tons of sense since women did not get their periods until 16-18 - then off to the marriage cage. Does your description sound preferable or not?


Nope--I like yours: short and sweet. The marriage cage sums up in a nutshell the situation most pre-20th century women were in--indentured servants to their spouses, and absolute slaves to their reproductive systems.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> ding ding ding
> 
> Sarah Palin!!!!


Actually, it was Michelle Bachmann, but what the heck?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Didn't they all? They won't give that guy a break.


And that was the poisoner himself, Ted Criuz.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Nope--I like yours: short and sweet. The marriage cage sums up in a nutshell the situation most pre-20th century women were in--indentured servants to their spouses, and absolute slaves to their reproductive systems.


Well, I think the real ladies of the day must have lain swooningly in their beds while the servants didn't have periods because they worked too hard and their bodies didn't produce menses.
How's that?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Well, I think the real ladies of the day must have lain swooningly in their beds while the servants didn't have periods because they worked too hard and their bodies didn't produce menses.
> How's that?


That's what went thru my mind too. The ladies languished in bed when they had their periods so the rag situation was not so dire and the overworked servant took care of the washing. Yuck!


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> That's what went thru my mind too. The ladies languished in bed when they had their periods so the rag situation was not so dire and the overworked servant took care of the washing. Yuck!


Ja, ja. Great minds and all that.
I've been really waiting for an opportunity to use my newly-learned "Jewish" word but the occasion has not arisen. It'll be tricky to work this one into a normal conversation, but I'll try.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Ja, ja. Great minds and all that.
> I've been really waiting for an opportunity to use my newly-learned "Jewish" word but the occasion has not arisen. It'll be tricky to work this one into a normal conversation, but I'll try.


Nu?????????


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> My mother told me she wore "rags" when she first started. To what would you attach the "rags"? Cooke - you will be our archivist and historian.


A piece of elastic tied around your waist and two safety pins, although I have heard that some girls attached the 'item' to the bottom of their singlet. We all sore singlets in those days. Younger readers may not know of this garment.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> I remember panty girdles! I also was very, very small and tried to wear one but it was so uncomfortable. Mostly I would admire it in the drawer.


Oh lucky you, you did not have to endure corsets with the metal brace inserts. Some were laced up the back and some were closed with hooks and eyes. Earlier versions used whale bones for the braces. You were squeezed in until you could not breathe. If you look carefully at the sit cons of the 50s and 60s you will understand how the female achieved their flat stomachs. The bras were likewise almost armor plated with well defined, pointy breasts, nothing like the soft feminine curves that nature endowed them with. And you were not allowed to have a bra strap showing, you had little clips to attach all the straps together, bra strap, singlet straps, petticoat straps. The garments were designed to completely hide the nipple, you were considered cheap if anyone could discern the faint outline of a nipple showing. Just watch Bewitched or I love Lucy and you will see what was considered the 'accepted female form' of the day. No wonder we all embraced the Women's Liberation movement and freedom in so many ways.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm not sure you can "wear" rags--rather, you fold them into a rectangle, place them in your panties, and hope to goodness they don't fall out!


We had them firmly anchored with the belt or elastic. I still have a belt somewhere amongst my collection of items from the past. The first 'bought' pads did not have a plastic insert to prevent leakages. But we did wear more layers of clothes than the modern lass, and skirts down to mid calf length. Well we did until the British introduced the mini skirt in the 60s.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm not sure you can "wear" rags--rather, you fold them into a rectangle, place them in your panties, and hope to goodness they don't fall out!


An interesting article is to be found on the site

http://myperiodblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/17/history-of-menstruation-part-1/

it is too long to cut and paste.

Interesting photos can be found if you google

8th century sanitary towels


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> A piece of elastic tied around your waist and two safety pins, although I have heard that some girls attached the 'item' to the bottom of their singlet. We all sore singlets in those days. Younger readers may not know of this garment.


Now Historian Cooke - that reminds me that my mom described a type of belt just as you described. I think a singlet is an undershirt??????? We don't use that term much in the States but I remember Ex-man using that word to describe his exercise tank top or whatever men wore in the 80s and 90s. Now the question is what did women use before safety pins? I got all my answers in your wonderful link. totally fascinating. Thanks.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Is this a nomination for the Golden Jackass Award? Very strong contender.



Poor Purl said:


> Is it all one person, or does this test have 7 questions?
> 
> Wait, is it Louis Gohmert? He'll say anything.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

True, once they get tangled up with NRA, they say the darndest things...just like children out of control.



SQM said:


> Charleton Heston?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I can tell we're thinking along the same lines.



Poor Purl said:


> I never get good emails like that. I have a few candidates, both male and female.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> Every time I watch TV I come up with a new dastardly republican. Can I nominate someone from this site?
> 
> Ted Cruz for today. You have to ask why????


No need to ask why. You can have as many nominations as you wish from any site. I figured we needed a chance to vent.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

They must start believing the characters they've played.



Poor Purl said:


> ...and his cold dead hands? I think Clint Eastwood had them attached to his own arms.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Good ones Al. Doesn't this feel good?



alcameron said:


> I dislike Mitch, the turtle. I shouldn't be unkind, a person can't help the way s/he looks.
> And how about "turd blossom?" Spreading blatant lies about Hillary's health.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Booze dissolves courage.



alcameron said:


> And how about John Boehner for caving to a certain segment of the House and not having the courage to do what's right?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

"Deficits don't matter"..... until the Democrats are in office?



peacegoddess said:


> Ronald Reagan????????? Probably not him. He did say something to the effect of: Those environmentalists will not be happy until they turn the White House into a bird's nest. I am going to look this up for the exact words.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You've got me stumped. "Intellectual movement?" How about 'stubborn philosophy?'



alcameron said:


> How about this one?
> 
> Our movement at its core is an intellectual movement.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Louie Gohmert aka Gomer Pyle


Same dif.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That load of blubber came to my mind too, Marilyn. I need a Pepto Bismol.



MarilynKnits said:


> How about the New Jersey Robin Hood in reverse? Chris Christie who takes from the poor to give to the rich.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

As long as the Princess has sufficient staff to do her bidding.



EveMCooke said:


> Both the Princess and I thank you for your information. We have discussed this project at length and Her Majesty is, at this moment, digesting the information. She will, in the not too distant future, let me know what she thinks about this structure. She did raise questions regarding the decor and internal lighting. She does favour natural lighting wherever possible and also favours incandescent lighting as opposed to fluorescence lighting. One major question related to the choice of air conditioning, she prefers reverse cycles and is not enamoured with evaporative air conditioning. But I think she may be contacting the said gentleman and arranging a meeting where she can discuss the matter at length. She has also advised me to thank you for your thoughtful consideration of her needs with regard to her accommodation.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

NO! Really?



EveMCooke said:


> Now we are going back to the dark ages. You are probably all to young to remember the days when you had to make your own, and wash and reuse them. Boy, how I hated that.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Turd blossom was my first pick.
> 
> DNA Testing Proves Karl Rove a Descendant of Satan
> 
> ...


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Good one, Purl. Zing.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

IMHO he's just a dim drunk. He's not in the running with the rest. IMHO



Poor Purl said:


> The problem with Boehner is that he's a nebbish. He'd be more like the 2nd or 3rd worse Repug.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ding DONG. Sarah flew into my mind unbidden from the very first. I discounted her with Michelle Bachman since they both are off the radar now.



Poor Purl said:


> ding ding ding
> 
> Sarah Palin!!!!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh, thank you Eve.



EveMCooke said:


> damemary said:
> 
> 
> > I got an email that got me thinking today. Perhaps some of you saw it.
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> As her indentured servant I would be forced to accompany her to The united Kingdom, to ensure her needs are fully cared for. She can be such a fussy and demanding little madam at times. I am certain she is a descendent of Queen Victoria.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: We live to serve (our pets.)


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Probably adopted the penguin walk for three or four days.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Interesting.



susanmos2000 said:


> Seriously, I bet menstruation was much less a big deal in earlier periods thanks to multiple pregnancies, prolonged breast-feeding, and poor diets. I think that every-28-days-twelve-times a year stuff is pretty much a modern development. Possibly women only got their periods a few times a year (if that), and the flow was so scanty that an occasional trip to the outhouse and a few swipes with a cloth was sufficient.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

They're twins anyway. No loss of points.



alcameron said:


> Actually, it was Michelle Bachmann, but what the heck?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I can't wait!



alcameron said:


> Ja, ja. Great minds and all that.
> I've been really waiting for an opportunity to use my newly-learned "Jewish" word but the occasion has not arisen. It'll be tricky to work this one into a normal conversation, but I'll try.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> A piece of elastic tied around your waist and two safety pins, although I have heard that some girls attached the 'item' to the bottom of their singlet. We all sore singlets in those days. Younger readers may not know of this garment.


I haven't felt 'younger' til this. Thanks Eve.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Now we are going back to the dark ages. You are probably all to young to remember the days when you had to make your own, and wash and reuse them. Boy, how I hated that.


Sorry to say I do remember that. That is what I started out with, until I was able to convince my Mother there was another option.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> My mother told me she wore "rags" when she first started. To what would you attach the "rags"? Cooke - you will be our archivist and historian.


Yes so did I. I attached them with safety pins to my undies. This is what my mother did, so therefor, so did I. YUK


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Well, I think the real ladies of the day must have lain swooningly in their beds while the servants didn't have periods because they worked too hard and their bodies didn't produce menses.
> How's that?


I think you are correct. I'm sure they took to their beds.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> A piece of elastic tied around your waist and two safety pins, although I have heard that some girls attached the 'item' to the bottom of their singlet. We all sore singlets in those days. Younger readers may not know of this garment.


I wore a "singlet" when I was younger, but wasn't wearing one by the time "I was on the rag." Aren't we bringing back wonderful memories today? :-( :-( :-(


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Oh lucky you, you did not have to endure corsets with the metal brace inserts. Some were laced up the back and some were closed with hooks and eyes. Earlier versions used whale bones for the braces. You were squeezed in until you could not breathe. If you look carefully at the sit cons of the 50s and 60s you will understand how the female achieved their flat stomachs. The bras were likewise almost armor plated with well defined, pointy breasts, nothing like the soft feminine curves that nature endowed them with. And you were not allowed to have a bra strap showing, you had little clips to attach all the straps together, bra strap, singlet straps, petticoat straps. The garments were designed to completely hide the nipple, you were considered cheap if anyone could discern the faint outline of a nipple showing. Just watch Bewitched or I love Lucy and you will see what was considered the 'accepted female form' of the day. No wonder we all embraced the Women's Liberation movement and freedom in so many ways.


The pointy bras of the 1950s, how they stay in the memory. But the corsets you describe sound as though they were from the 1850s. As I recall (and on this subject my memory thankfully fades) there were bones, and hooks and eyes, but not laces. Scarlett O'Hara had a houseful of slaves to dress her; what woman these days has spare people around to lace her up the back?

And for those of us with less-than-perfect figures, the girdles squeezed the thighs together so that after walking around all day, your thighs were chapped. And until panty hose, there was almost no way to avoid that. Actually, there were panty girdles, but for some reason they didn't have the proper cachet.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> The pointy bras of the 1950s, how they stay in the memory. But the corsets you describe sound as though they were from the 1850s. As I recall (and on this subject my memory thankfully fades) there were bones, and hooks and eyes, but not laces. Scarlett O'Hara had a houseful of slaves to dress her; what woman these days has spare people around to lace her up the back?
> 
> And for those of us with less-than-perfect figures, the girdles squeezed the thighs together so that after walking around all day, your thighs were chapped. And until panty hose, there was almost no way to avoid that. Actually, there were panty girdles, but for some reason they didn't have the proper cachet.


Oh, the pointy bras, I had forgotten about them. I always hated when I got a new bra as they were so pointy. Old and stretched out worked better for me.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Who is Louis Gohmert?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> An interesting article is to be found on the site
> 
> http://myperiodblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/17/history-of-menstruation-part-1/
> 
> ...


I have to go back to this and read it all. It's very interesting.

When I was in my early teens, my father had a friend who worked at a factory where they made gauze and/or cheesecloth, and every time he visited, he brought my mother a roll. So on my first period, my mom went to her hoard of Willy's rags and made a pad for me (luckily, we had plenty of the stuff and didn't need to wash them), which she pinned to my panties.

One thing I recall from those days were large, glossy magazine ads that showed and elegant, beautifully dressed woman with only the text "Modess because...." It took another year or so after Willy's rags for me to learn that Modess was a sanitary napkin competing with the much more practical Kotex brand.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Is this a nomination for the Golden Jackass Award? Very strong contender.


Oh, yes. I don't know about "Golden," but this guy sure is a jackass.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> True, once they get tangled up with NRA, they say the darndest things...just like children out of control.


...only with real guns in their hands.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> They must start believing the characters they've played.


Heston played Moses. Do you think that in his dotage he tried to part the ocean?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Ding DONG. Sarah flew into my mind unbidden from the very first. I discounted her with Michelle Bachman since they both are off the radar now.


 But apparently it was a mistake to discount Bachman. She still has a few months to say the egregious things she's always said. I wonder what will come out of her mouth now that she's not courting voters.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Ja, ja. Great minds and all that.
> I've been really waiting for an opportunity to use my newly-learned "Jewish" word but the occasion has not arisen. It'll be tricky to work this one into a normal conversation, but I'll try.


Whisper it in my ear, and I'll give you a sentence.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

The worst republican--there are so many options.

I guess I would have to say Bush, because of Iraq. Although Dick Cheney is right up there with him, especially now because he doesn't have the good sense to shut up. He still thinks we want his opinion. Donald Rumsfeld can join the party. He fits in well. Another one is Rush Limbaugh. Someone already mentioned Louie and Michelle and Sarah. There are just too many to pick one. I'm sure if I took the time I could think of many more.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> Who is Louis Gohmert?


He is a wackabird representative from Texas. Wacky is what he is. Google him and you will get more information than you really want.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Who is Louis Gohmert?


Huh? You've never heard of Gomer? Please, please, please click on this link:
http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2013/05/gohmert_muslim_brotherhood_ter.php But it won't give you his voice or his Texas accent, so I also recommend


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Fragile egos require a golden statuette. IMO



Poor Purl said:


> Oh, yes. I don't know about "Golden," but this guy sure is a jackass.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I guess they're right. Everyone should have a gun so we can stand our ground.



Poor Purl said:


> ...only with real guns in their hands.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I hope he not only tried it, he almost drowned in it.



Poor Purl said:


> Heston played Moses. Do you think that in his dotage he tried to part the ocean?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Whisper it in my ear, and I'll give you a sentence.


 :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Excellent list. More please. It's like shooting fish in a barrel, no?



NJG said:


> The worst republican--there are so many options.
> 
> I guess I would have to say Bush, because of Iraq. Although Dick Cheney is right up there with him, especially now because he doesn't have the good sense to shut up. He still thinks we want his opinion. Donald Rumsfeld can join the party. He fits in well. Another one is Rush Limbaugh. Someone already mentioned Louie and Michelle and Sarah. There are just too many to pick one. I'm sure if I took the time I could think of many more.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Now there's a long list for you: Wackabirds from Texas! Good one.



NJG said:


> He is a wackabird representative from Texas. Wacky is what he is. Google him and you will get more information than you really want.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Fragile egos require a golden statuette. IMO


No fragile ego in Gohmert. He'll say anything, regardless of the response. He actually thinks he's smart.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Excellent list. More please. It's like shooting fish in a barrel, no?


I'll get back to you after I've had a second cup of coffee. I need caffeine to face up to these people.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

As I said his ego is fragile.



Poor Purl said:


> No fragile ego in Gohmert. He'll say anything, regardless of the response. He actually thinks he's smart.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> As I said his ego is fragile.


You say "fragile," I say "idiotic." Let's agree to disagree.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Ronald Reagan gets my vote for worst because he seems to have started the nastiness of the republicans. I remember Rockefeller who was a fiscal conservative, but a social liberal.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Ronald Reagan gets my vote for worst because he seems to have started the nastiness of the republicans. I remember Rockefeller who was a fiscal conservative, but a social liberal.


That's good. RR was the first of the worst. I tend to think in terms of the living, but with some of those guys, who can tell?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Plus for us in California we had a double dose of him. We still reap the problems he started by closing mental health facilities.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Huh? You've never heard of Gomer? Please, please, please click on this link:
> http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2013/05/gohmert_muslim_brotherhood_ter.php But it won't give you his voice or his Texas accent, so I also recommend
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Today I had my favorite taco salad at a local restaurant. It's pretty full of fat, and I'm sure it's not glatt kosher, but I ate it anyway.
Nu???


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

OMG, we can't forget Darrell Issa. He has done so much for inventing scandals and trying to destroy our president.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

NJG said:


> OMG, we can't forget Darrell Issa. He has done so much for inventing scandals and trying to destroy our president.


And he takes himself SO seriously! He's a jerk.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> that was quite a fun experience. Only in Texas do they grow grow them larger and crazier than life. I cannot imagine who would vote him in office. Who are his constituents? What committee does he serve on? Is there a dem who comes close to him regarding baseless assumptions?


I can't imagine a Dem like that - there are few Repugs that come even close. But he's been serving in Congress for a long time, and has been re-elected every two years. Which makes me think there's something strange going on with the ballots there.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Today I had my favorite taco salad at a local restaurant. It's pretty full of fat, and I'm sure it's not glatt kosher, but I ate it anyway.
> Nu???


Is that the word, "glatt"? Oy, vey.

BTW "nu" is one of my favorite words; it means so many things.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I can't imagine a Dem like that - there are few Repugs that come even close. But he's been serving in Congress for a long time, and has been re-elected every two years. Which makes me think there's something strange going on with the ballots there.


What is strange is that the citizens like his message.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> And he takes himself SO seriously! He's a jerk.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> What is strange is that the citizens like his message.


Maybe. Or there's something wrong with the ballots.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Is that the word, "glatt"? Oy, vey.
> 
> BTW "nu" is one of my favorite words; it means so many things.


Yup, "glatt" it is. It's fun to say, and although I guess it really has to do with animals having smooth lungs, we can use it in all kinds of other contexts--like we can make the bed nice and glatt or when you get up in the morning is your hair sticking up or is it nice and glatt? Or is your dog's coat glatt or curly?How's that for a nice, non-Jewish girl's use of glatt? 
I'm increasing my vocabulary from schmatta and ungapatchka to glatt and nu.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Yup, "glatt" it is. It's fun to say, and although I guess it really has to do with animals having smooth lungs, we can use it in all kinds of other contexts--like we can make the bed nice and glatt or when you get up in the morning is your hair sticking up or is it nice and glatt? Or is your dog's coat glatt or curly?How's that for a nice, non-Jewish girl's use of glatt?
> I'm increasing my vocabulary from schmatta and ungapatchka to glatt and nu.


That's great, al!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Yup, "glatt" it is. It's fun to say, and although I guess it really has to do with animals having smooth lungs, we can use it in all kinds of other contexts--like we can make the bed nice and glatt or when you get up in the morning is your hair sticking up or is it nice and glatt? Or is your dog's coat glatt or curly?How's that for a nice, non-Jewish girl's use of glatt?
> I'm increasing my vocabulary from schmatta and ungapatchka to glatt and nu.


I never thought of glatt as being such a useful word, but you've convinced me.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

My body hurts. I did a lot of yard work and lifted things I shouldn't have. I guess you could call me a Kvetch, nu?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> My body hurts. I did a lot of yard work and lifted things I shouldn't have. I guess you could call me a Kvetch, nu?


Nope. You'd be a kvetch if you did nothing and still complained. Right now, you're just an umglick (unfortunate one).


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> What is strange is that the citizens like his message.


And it is kind of scary when you realize that there are enough people that think like him to vote him into office. Either that or they just vote the party no matter who the candidate is, which is also scary.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Just different sides of the same coin. "Idiotic" discounts him. "Fragile" says the must be a reason for someone to act like such an idiot.

You may be wrong, but you may be right....



Poor Purl said:


> You say "fragile," I say "idiotic." Let's agree to disagree.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Interesting that you say that. I feel the same. Most people adore Reagen still. IMO he did his best acting as president.



peacegoddess said:


> Ronald Reagan gets my vote for worst because he seems to have started the nastiness of the republicans. I remember Rockefeller who was a fiscal conservative, but a social liberal.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> Plus for us in California we had a double dose of him. We still reap the problems he started by closing mental health facilities.


We all do. Hinckley almost killed him and I doubt he saw the connection.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Issa is up there on my list too.



NJG said:


> OMG, we can't forget Darrell Issa. He has done so much for inventing scandals and trying to destroy our president.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Please teach us "nu."



Poor Purl said:


> Is that the word, "glatt"? Oy, vey.
> 
> BTW "nu" is one of my favorite words; it means so many things.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I call you beautiful and funny.



BrattyPatty said:


> My body hurts. I did a lot of yard work and lifted things I shouldn't have. I guess you could call me a Kvetch, nu?


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> Please teach us "nu."


When someone tells you something dishy but doesn't give you what you think are all the details, you reply with "nu?". Which means what else is there you are not telling me. Often nu is accompanied by body English, turning your hands palm up and slowly moving them up and down a bit and sometimes moving your head a bit, slightly ear to shoulder each way a few times. A one word phrase for "keep talking, keep it coming."


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Please teach us "nu."


It simply means something like "well?" or "Come on, already." Here, this guy has most of it:



Peter Flom said:


> Nu (rhymes with you) is very hard to define, because it can mean so many things. But the best translation is probably "well" or "so". Nu is usually asked with an interrogatory tone.
> If you're playing chess or another game and your opponent is taking forever .... you say "Nu?"
> If someone tells you something that you don't need or want to know or have any way to respond to.... you say "Nu?"
> If you meet someone you haven't seen in a while, and want to know what's going on ... you say "Nu?"
> ...


And I just learned that Yahoo has a Yiddish Word of the Day. Nu, what else would you expect?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> When someone tells you something dishy but doesn't give you what you think are all the details, you reply with "nu?". Which means what else is there you are not telling me. Often nu is accompanied by body English, turning your hands palm up and slowly moving them up and down a bit and sometimes moving your head a bit, slightly ear to shoulder each way a few times. A one word phrase for "keep talking, keep it coming."


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Yup, "glatt" it is. It's fun to say, and although I guess it really has to do with animals having smooth lungs, we can use it in all kinds of other contexts--like we can make the bed nice and glatt or when you get up in the morning is your hair sticking up or is it nice and glatt? Or is your dog's coat glatt or curly?How's that for a nice, non-Jewish girl's use of glatt?
> I'm increasing my vocabulary from schmatta and ungapatchka to glatt and nu.


I love teaching Yiddish words to non-Jews. Ex-man was born Catholic and by the first month of our dating I was teaching him words. Eventually, he would pepper his English with more Yiddish terms than I would. People who knew one of us was Jewish could not figure out which.

Word today - Fah mished. Means mixed up. Example - I am so fahmished, I thought it was Saturday. Let us know when and how you used it.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Nope. You'd be a kvetch if you did nothing and still complained. Right now, you're just an umglick (unfortunate one).


Actually if you are in pain and telling everyone, I would call you a kvetch.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I love teaching Yiddish words to non-Jews. Ex-man was born Catholic and by the first month of our dating I was teaching him words. Eventually, he would pepper his English with more Yiddish terms than I would. People who knew one of us was Jewish could not figure out which.
> 
> Word today - Fah mished. Means mixed up. Example - I am so fahmished, I thought it was Saturday. Let us know when and how you used it.


Excuse me. You are so fa*r*mished you make it look like "famished."

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Actually if you are in pain and telling everyone, I would call you a kvetch.


You're right. And I say that as Kveen of the Kvetches.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> Please teach us "nu."


I use 'nu" as "so tell me".

Re: your new Avatar - I don't like Hills. I try to but I see something in her face, at times, that scares me. Plus she voted for Iraq. I think she is dangerous for some crazy reason. However, I would love to live to see a woman president.

NU?

What do others think?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Excuse me. You are so fa*r*mished you make it look like "famished."
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:


When my daughter was small and reading a book with the word famished in it she read it as fahmished and was confused since it did not fit in the context of course.

I am a romanian jew from Chicago and I was taught fah mished. New Yorkers put Rs in wrong places in English.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> I love teaching Yiddish words to non-Jews. Ex-man was born Catholic and by the first month of our dating I was teaching him words. Eventually, he would pepper his English with more Yiddish terms than I would. People who knew one of us was Jewish could not figure out which.
> 
> Word today - Fah mished. Means mixed up. Example - I am so fahmished, I thought it was Saturday. Let us know when and how you used it.


I thought famished meant that you're very hungry . . .
Nu?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Has anyone noticed that people are starting to wear tortoise shelled glasses to give them an air of gravitas? Because I'm a basketball fan, I first noticed it in the after-game interviews with players. There they are, dressed in their Armani togs sporting glasses!
Now I see Rick Perry wearing them. Don't get any ideas, Mr. Gohmert. Nothing can help you.
I guess that should be "tortoise rimmed?" Oh well, you know what I meant.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> I use 'nu" as "so tell me".
> 
> Re: your new Avatar - I don't like Hills. I try to but I see something in her face, at times, that scares me. Plus she voted for Iraq. I think she is dangerous for some crazy reason. However, I would love to live to see a woman president.
> 
> ...


She's not my favorite, either. Too much of a corporatist, however, I would like to see a strong woman president. I happen to think she'd have been better than Obama, but, you can question my opinion----I liked Edwards and we all know how that ended. Too bad Elizabeth Warren isn't ready.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Excuse me. You are so fa*r*mished you make it look like "famished."
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:


So there's really an "r" in it? Or is that an intrusive "r" from someone's accent?
Or did the "r" disappear from someone's accent?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> I thought famished meant that you're very hungry . . .
> Nu?


Fah mished - accent on second syllable. (not fam-ished) Say it PP's way who says it New York style - plus she really knows the language better than I. I mostly learned from a gay Puerto Rican who centuries ago, was in an all Jewish fraternity at Alfred University.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I thought famished meant that you're very hungry . . .
> Nu?


Nu, SQM? See what happened.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Fah mished - accent on second syllable. (not fam-ished) Say it PP's way who says it New York style - plus she really knows the language better than I. I mostly learned from a gay Puerto Rican who centuries ago, was in an all Jewish fraternity at Alfred University.


It's farmisht, like farklempt, farkakt, and farblondzhit.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Nu, SQM? See what happened.


I just verified the pronunciation from a Queens-born friend and she says it without the R. She said in Baltimore it is pronounced without the R.

Nu?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> So there's really an "r" in it? Or is that an intrusive "r" from someone's accent?
> Or did the "r" disappear from someone's accent?


There's an "r" because the original German prefix, _ver-,_ has an "r". It seems SQM lost her r's.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I just verified the pronunciation from a Queens-born friend and she says it without the R. She said in Baltimore it is pronounced without the R.
> 
> Nu?


Queens girls talk so fast they leave out half the alphabet. And we all know about Baltimorons.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It's farmisht, like farklempt, farkakt, and farblondzhit.


Accent on the second syllable as only we (Yiddish-speakers) know how to do.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Queens girls talk so fast they leave out half the alphabet. And we all know about Baltimorons.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Accent on the second syllable as only we (Yiddish-speakers) know how to do.


Well, we and the Germans. But let's leave them out of this.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Well, we and the Germans. But let's leave them out of this.


In Hebrew most of the words are accented on the second syllable.

Chah zer rye - Junk food - for Al - not that she eats this stuff


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> In Hebrew most of the words are accented on the second syllable.
> 
> Chah zer rye - Junk food - for Al - not that she eats this stuff


Now, that's confusing. It's accented on the first syllable (and it's not Hebrew). But at least she eats it on rye.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Correct about the syllable. I was just thinking of some of my favorite and most used words. Schnoorer - a lot of Rs and it means a person who sponges . Henry is such a schnoorer - he stuffed all the bagels into his pocket.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It's farmisht, like farklempt, farkakt, and farblondzhit.


Also fardreyt, fartumelt, farfalllen,

And don't forget the shlemiel of a waiter who spills the hot soup in the lap of the shemozzel.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> In Hebrew most of the words are accented on the second syllable.
> 
> Chah zer rye - Junk food - for Al - not that she eats this stuff


And now I have nosherai, too. My vocabulary is growing by leaps and bounds. And my source said that chazerai can be other junk, too--not just food.
Right now I have the Sunday paper and other chazerai on the table.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Also fardreyt, fartumelt, farfalllen,
> 
> And don't forget the shlemiel of a waiter who spills the hot soup in the lap of the shemozzel.


I wonder if fartumelt is like a tuna melt.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm lost. At least I have friends to depend on.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

alcameron said:


> I wonder if fartumelt is like a tuna melt.


It doesn't sound like it.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I wonder if fartumelt is like a tuna melt.


When you are fartumelt you have agita. Now you are getting into my grasp of Italian!


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'm lost. At least I have friends to depend on.


You are farblundget and you have chaverim who will look out for you.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Just saw this on Facebook so changing the subject a bit. In 31 states it is legal for a convicted rapist to sue for custody and visitation rights. Now tell me republicans in congress, why wouldn't a woman want an abortion if she was raped?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Sadly we have a rape culture in this country and it is a huge part of the War on Women. I bet the stats are even higher because of under reporting.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I wonder if fartumelt is like a tuna melt.


Don't forget that it begins with "fart." Ask your expert - she's been a pretty good teacher up to now. And no, it's not like a tuna melt, which is a really goyish food.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Yo PP!

I saw a movie with friends today and it was in the Village East Cinema on 2nd and 11th. It used to be a grand yiddish theatre. The inside was so ornamental from its first incarnation. Do you know the theatre I am talking about?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Yo PP!
> 
> I saw a movie with friends today and it was in the Village East Cinema on 2nd and 11th. It used to be a grand yiddish theatre. The inside was so ornamental from its first incarnation. Do you know the theatre I am talking about?


Yes, I do. Joe and I were there about a year ago. It's quite beautiful. Did you get the guided tour (a guard with nothing much to do showed us all the rooms)?


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> Sadly we have a rape culture in this country and it is a huge part of the War on Women. I bet the stats are even higher because of under reporting.


I remember a saying from the 1950s. 'If you are raped then murder the bastard. It is easier to defend a murder charge than to defend a rape victim's honour in a court.' My mother agree with that sentiment. It seems that little may have changed. The rapist demanding visitation rights for the child he 'fathered' as a result of his vicious crime. I hate to use the word 'fathered' as he is not a father, he merely forced his sperm onto, or I should say into, his victim, and with force and humility.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> Yo PP!
> 
> I saw a movie with friends today and it was in the Village East Cinema on 2nd and 11th. It used to be a grand yiddish theatre. The inside was so ornamental from its first incarnation. Do you know the theatre I am talking about?


I wonder whether that was where my grandfather took me to see Molly Picon movies lo these many years ago.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Yes, I do. Joe and I were there about a year ago. It's quite beautiful. Did you get the guided tour (a guard with nothing much to do showed us all the rooms)?


We peeked into the other theatre rooms ourselves. What was the original name so I can research it? Magnificent.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> I wonder whether that was where my grandfather took me to see Molly Picon movies lo these many years ago.


I was thinking of Molly Picon while I was there. I would imagine this was the biggest yiddish theater around. The movie was a bore but the setting made up for it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> We peeked into the other theatre rooms ourselves. What was the original name so I can research it? Magnificent.


http://www.villageeastcinema.com/angelika_history.asp?hID=166&ID=120&page=Cinema%20History


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> http://www.villageeastcinema.com/angelika_history.asp?hID=166&ID=120&page=Cinema%20History


Thanks for the link. When I tried googling it, all I got was bed bugs in Manhattan theatres. Happy summer all.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I remember a saying from the 1950s. 'If you are raped then murder the bastard. It is easier to defend a murder charge than to defend a rape victim's honour in a court.' My mother agree with that sentiment. It seems that little may have changed. The rapist demanding visitation rights for the child he 'fathered' as a result of his vicious crime. I hate to use the word 'fathered' as he is not a father, he merely forced his sperm onto, or I should say into, his victim, and with force and humility.


And all the people that give no thought to the woman, saying it was part of God's plan. They think it was consensual or she was "asking for it" by the way she was dressed. Here are a couple of links to find out where other states stand on this matter. Iowa has no protection for the mother.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/08/rapist-seeks-child-custody-shauna-prewitt

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/26/pregnant-rape-abortion_n_2552183.html


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

I am concerned about the difference between Law and Justice. I believe Law rarely metes out Justice.

I've started a new topic called "Law Versus Justice" and I hope you will join me there.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Thanks for the link. When I tried googling it, all I got was bed bugs in Manhattan theatres. Happy summer all.


You don't mean that literally I hope.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You don't mean that literally I hope.


Everything I post, I mean. Try it yourself. Village East Cinema


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Everything I post, I mean. Try it yourself. Village East Cinema


By "literally," I meant getting bedbugs, not having them come up in a search. But I did do a search, and the first thing I got was their website, which I sent to you.

I'll try again, and this time I'll look for the bedbugs.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> By "literally," I meant getting bedbugs, not having them come up in a search. But I did do a search, and the first thing I got was their website, which I sent to you.
> 
> I'll try again, and this time I'll look for the bedbugs.


Talking to myself again.

I actually went to the suggested search for East v.c. bedbugs. It turned out to be informative and fun and not too buggy.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I am concerned about the difference between Law and Justice. I believe Law rarely metes out Justice.
> 
> I've started a new topic called "Law Versus Justice" and I hope you will join me there.


Thanks for starting the topic. It is very thought provoking. I have visited and commented; I saw several other familiar names making positive contributions to the dialog.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

alcameron said:


> My boyfriend, Robert Reich writes about proposed legislation in California which would base corporate taxes on a ratio comparing a typical worker's pay with the CEO's pay. If the CEO makes 400 times that of the typical worker the corporate tax rate would reflect that with a higher tax rate, and if the CEO"s pay was just 25 times the typical worker's, the corporate tax rate would be much lower. Interesting concept.
> 
> http://robertreich.org/post/83456610643b


It surely sounds like a formula for more equitable treatment of typical workers and more sensible compensation for management.

It has always struck me as obscene when " golden parachutes" worth huge sums are given to people who were obviously fired for incompetence, but were part of the "old boys" network.

Then we think of what some athletes and movie stars are paid. Teachers, pediatricians, oncologists, and countless others are worth so much more and make such more highly significant contributions to society.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

I just heard yesterday that the average CEO makes 10.5 million a year, which is up 8% from 2012. That is 257 times higher than an average persons salary. Do they work 257 times harder? There was a day when the CEO realized that that person on the assembly line was making money for him, and he paid him well and had respect for him. Not any longer. Now it is all greed at the top. Now you hear those CEO's like Tom Perkins say that only taxpayers should have the right to vote -- and that wealthy Americans who pay more in taxes should get more votes. Doesn't look like things are going to improve any time soon.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> I just heard yesterday that the average CEO makes 10.5 million a year, which is up 8% from 2012. That is 257 times higher than an average persons salary. Do they work 257 times harder? There was a day when the CEO realized that that person on the assembly line was making money for him, and he paid him well and had respect for him. Not any longer. Now it is all greed at the top. Now you hear those CEO's like Tom Perkins say that only taxpayers should have the right to vote -- and that wealthy Americans who pay more in taxes should get more votes. Doesn't look like things are going to improve any time soon.


When tax rates at the top were high, it didn't pay for an individual to get a large salary; better to put it back into the business.

But now, they really think they earned it, and each penny they get makes them a more substantial person. They think they own the country literally, not just figuratively. And who knows, the majority on SCOTUS may agree with them.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> When tax rates at the top were high, it didn't pay for an individual to get a large salary; better to put it back into the business.
> 
> But now, they really think they earned it, and each penny they get makes them a more substantial person. They think they own the country literally, not just figuratively. And who knows, the majority on SCOTUS may agree with them.


That is my and I think Neb's feelings that the Big Corporations run this country. The Prez is only an Administrator to CEOs.

For myself, I am not sure about Neb., but I feel The Military is in with the Corps. Exactly the Industrial/Military Complex that concerned Eisenhower.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> That is my and I think Neb's feelings that the Big Corporations run this country. The Prez is only an Administrator to CEOs.
> 
> For myself, I am not sure about Neb., but I feel The Military is in with the Corps. Exactly the Industrial/Military Complex that concerned Eisenhower.


But with the addition of the financial industry - which was never considered "industrial."


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> That is my and I think Neb's feelings that the Big Corporations run this country. The Prez is only an Administrator to CEOs.
> 
> For myself, I am not sure about Neb., but I feel The Military is in with the Corps. Exactly the Industrial/Military Complex that concerned Eisenhower.


Rachel talked about the military last night on her show. Even when they ask for a 1% increase in funding, congress insists on giving them 1.8%. But then Bernie Sanders introduces a bill for more funding for the VA and that gets filibustered.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

NJG said:


> Rachel talked about the military last night on her show. Even when they ask for a 1% increase in funding, congress insists on giving them 1.8%. But then Bernie Sanders introduces a bill for more funding for the VA and that gets filibustered.


But the 'filibusterers" are such good patriots!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

if you want a laugh go to "There are no words" under Pictures. KPers are a riot!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> But the 'filibusterers" are such good patriots!


Aren't they though. Complain about those poor veterans and at the same time, cut their funding. It is always so easy to put the blame on someone else.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

My 6 year old grand daughters words of wisdom to her mother while on their way home from school yesterday.

"Grown-ups no longer get taller like kids do since they stopped growing. ..they just get wider!"


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> My 6 year old grand daughters words of wisdom to her mother while on their way home from school yesterday.
> 
> "Grown-ups no longer get taller like kids do since they stopped growing. ..they just get wider!"


Please tell your granddaughter to shut up. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Please tell your granddaughter to shut up. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


I have told her she is too smart for her own good. I don't think I had even come close to figuring that out at age 6.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm posting this here and elsewhere because my hero, Robert Reich says everything so well. He compares the US form of capitalism with the "gentler capitalism" of other nations.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2014/may/28/robert-b-reich-the-perils-of-americas-hard/


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I'm posting this here and elsewhere because my hero, Robert Reich says everything so well. He compares the US form of capitalism with the "gentler capitalism" of other nations.
> 
> http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2014/may/28/robert-b-reich-the-perils-of-americas-hard/


It would seem to be a very clear, obvious description of how things are, but the comments are horrendous. What kind of readers does Commercial Appeal have? (Rhetorical question - it's obvious, too.)


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It would seem to be a very clear, obvious description of how things are, but the comments are horrendous. What kind of readers does Commercial Appeal have? (Rhetorical question - it's obvious, too.)


Just to explain
I grabbed the first thing that came up when I googled it. I read it in the SF Chronicle, but I was in a hurry and didn't really check the comments or the site.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Just to explain
> I grabbed the first thing that came up when I googled it. I read it in the SF Chronicle, but I was in a hurry and didn't really check the comments or the site.


I'm sure the SF Chronicle had entirely different comments.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

NJG said:


> My 6 year old grand daughters words of wisdom to her mother while on their way home from school yesterday.
> 
> "Grown-ups no longer get taller like kids do since they stopped growing. ..they just get wider!"


NJG
how true. She deserves a special treat for being so observant.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I saw it. Brave model. No face.



SQM said:


> if you want a laugh go to "There are no words" under Pictures. KPers are a riot!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

A piece of good news for Designer1234, and a good idea for all artists living in the paths of pipelines:

*Artist Stops Oil Pipeline Cold*
byoccupystephanie

Alberta artist, Peter von Tiesenhausen, has effectively stopped oil corporations from putting a pipeline through his 800 acre property by covering it with artwork and copyrighting the top six inches of his land as an artwork.

Realizing that mining companies can legitimately lay claim to any land underneath private property to a depth of six inches, van Tiesenhausen contacted a lawyer who drew up an intellectual property/copyright claim that said that if the oil company disturbed the top six inches in any way, it would be a copyright violation.
~ Terry Dawes, Cantech Letter

The oil corporations had been eager to get their pipeline through his land to get "their" natural gas.
The spread von Tiesenhausen inherited from his parents, a former family farm 80 kilometres west of Grande Prairie, sits atop a natural gas hot spot known as the "deep basin." Industry has been in aggressive growth mode in the area since Calgarian Jim Gray's Canadian Hunter Exploration (now part of Burlington Resources, soon to merge with ConocoPhillips) discovered rich geological formations in the early 1970s.
~ The Edmonton Journal, Canada.com
Von Tiesenausen decided to talk to them in their own language: Money. The copyright claim makes his entire property a work of art since he has covered it with visual art scupltures including "a 33-metre-long ship sculpted with willow stalks, winter ice forms, nest-like structures in trees, statuesque towers and a "lifeline" or visual autobiography composed as a white picket fence built in annual sections left to weather naturally". The copyright also drastically increases the remuneration of around $200 for lost crops to around $600,000 for an " artistic property disturbance".
Dealing with the oil tycoons as a business man, he has also been able to cut down on their harassing phone calls and visits.

Taking a page from the books of business consultants, he demands $500 an hour from companies that want to take up his time talking to him about his land. "I demand $500 an hour. They pay. It keeps the meetings really short and they don't do it nearly as often as they used to," the artist said.
"I meet presidents of oil companies. I show them I'm a guy trying to make a go of something that's honest and valid. It's what they understand."
~ The Edmonton Journal, Canada.com

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/30/1303087/-Artist-Stops-Oil-Pipeline-Cold?detail=email


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> A piece of good news for Designer1234, and a good idea for all artists living in the paths of pipelines:
> 
> *Artist Stops Oil Pipeline Cold*
> byoccupystephanie
> ...


I saw an article on him a few months ago -- Certainly a unique way to make a statement - and quite legitimate - interesting!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Just read that in Wisconsin, as soon as the republicans took complete control, they passed a law, a plaintiff to file their lawsuit where ever they want. So, bless their hearts, if they live a mainly democratic county, they can file their lawsuit in another county that is mostly republican, so they can get a republican judge and jury. This is not at all surprising though, as we know the republicans will cheat any way they can. They don't even hide it anymore.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> Just read that in Wisconsin, as soon as the republicans took complete control, they passed a law, a plaintiff to file their lawsuit where ever they want. So, bless their hearts, if they live a mainly democratic county, they can file their lawsuit in another county that is mostly republican, so they can get a republican judge and jury. This is not at all surprising though, as we know the republicans will cheat any way they can. They don't even hide it anymore.


That's crappy. Repub judges don't seem to understand the meaning of justice. I don't know whether Dems do, but I know Repubs don't.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

No there isn't anything to that "global warming." We don't believe it. It is all a hoax, put on by those democrats! 
Will they believe it when the mall floods?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/06/01/1303678/-Norfolk-VA-Going-Going-Gone-Underwater?detail=email


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

NJG said:


> No there isn't anything to that "global warming." We don't believe it. It is all a hoax, put on by those democrats!
> Will they believe it when the mall floods?
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/06/01/1303678/-Norfolk-VA-Going-Going-Gone-Underwater?detail=email


Actually on MSNBC, I saw a Christian Fundamentalist Minister of a good-sized church who is spinning Global Warming in a way to make it palatable for Christians - he is talking about global warming destroying Creation. I think his website is CreationCare.??? He was wonderful. He said so many interesting things. He mentioned that while Science is an important factor in the secular world, it doesn't rank high with any fundamentalist group including Jews and Christians, alike. They value god, family, country first. Science was about number 5 down of his list. I thought he was very enlightened. He totally got global warming but explained it to his people in ways that they could relate to and support. It is so important that all of us see the issue for what it is.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

NJG said:


> Just read that in Wisconsin, as soon as the republicans took complete control, they passed a law, a plaintiff to file their lawsuit where ever they want. So, bless their hearts, if they live a mainly democratic county, they can file their lawsuit in another county that is mostly republican, so they can get a republican judge and jury. This is not at all surprising though, as we know the republicans will cheat any way they can. They don't even hide it anymore.


I can't say I am surprised, NJG. With Scott Walker and his council of thugs, anything is possible there in Cheeseland.
Not to mention the Koch's.....


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Can I say there are some crazy people on the loose out there?
Watch out!

http://www.thefrisky.com/2014-06-03/rip-society-now-theres-a-petition-to-classify-feminism-as-a-terrorist-group/

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/06/04/3444814/ohio-lawmakers-insurance-iuds/

"Unless Women are prepared to fight politically, they must be prepared to be ignored politically." Alice Paul


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

NJG said:


> Can I say there are some crazy people on the loose out there?
> Watch out!
> 
> http://www.thefrisky.com/2014-06-03/rip-society-now-theres-a-petition-to-classify-feminism-as-a-terrorist-group/
> ...


Yes, you can! Thanks for the links, NJG. 
BTW have you seen the film clips on the people in Wisconsin who worked for a certain county? They took pay cuts in order to get benefits and now their benefits have been cut. Scott Walker really stinks!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Yes, you can! Thanks for the links, NJG.
> BTW have you seen the film clips on the people in Wisconsin who worked for a certain county? They took pay cuts in order to get benefits and now their benefits have been cut. Scott Walker really stinks!


You got that right. Yes I did see that. I just don't understand why people vote against their own self interest and put idiots like him in office. By the time 2016 rolls around most of those republicans that were interested in the presidency will fighting corruption charges. The idea of getting rid of social security and Medicare should be enough to scare those older republicans, but doesn't seem to. I think they feel that it won't happen to those that are already recipients and they don't care about the rest. I saw a survey the other day that showed that Fox viewers were all older people.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Will it never end?



NJG said:


> Can I say there are some crazy people on the loose out there?
> Watch out!
> 
> http://www.thefrisky.com/2014-06-03/rip-society-now-theres-a-petition-to-classify-feminism-as-a-terrorist-group/
> ...


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Will it never end?


Probably not, until some doctor develops brain transplants.

I just had a nice surprise. I logged on to Knitter's Review, which I rarely do, and decided to check out some of the non-knitting forums. Went to Political Discussions, and the first one I looked at was about South Dakota passing an anti-abortion law (these messages were from 2011). Not a single person posted a message in favor of the law; in fact, most seemed pretty po'd that they passed it.

So then I went to a forum on Seniors and the effect of the ACA on Medicare. Here there were mostly well-informed posts. So I went to one just called Happy. The woman who started it was happy. So was the one who supplied this link:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/06/28/hilarious-alert-americans-angry-about-supreme-court-ruling-on-healthcare-threaten-to-move-to-canada/ which led to a discussion of the idiots in the GOP who had been trying to stop the ACA.

It was so different. Now I wonder whether it's so inactive because nobody's fighting.

www.knittersreview.com


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Probably not, until some doctor develops brain transplants.
> 
> I just had a nice surprise. I logged on to Knitter's Review, which I rarely do, and decided to check out some of the non-knitting forums. Went to Political Discussions, and the first one I looked at was about South Dakota passing an anti-abortion law (these messages were from 2011). Not a single person posted a message in favor of the law; in fact, most seemed pretty po'd that they passed it.
> 
> ...


Your Knittersreview link came up dead.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Your Knittersreview link came up dead.


Wow, you're right. Alcameron posted it on Neutral Bridges, but I could simply forward this week's issue to you, and you could take it from there.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Purl, please forward knittersreview to me too. I'm not familiar with it. Thanks.



Poor Purl said:


> Wow, you're right. Alcameron posted it on Neutral Bridges, but I could simply forward this week's issue to you, and you could take it from there.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

damemary said:


> Purl, please forward knittersreview to me too. I'm not familiar with it. Thanks.


Sorry, my dears. Posted it on the wrong thread. I rather like Knitter's Review but haven't really followed the forums. Clara Parkes has been a guest on Knitting Daily (PBS) and writes the review.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Sorry, my dears. Posted it on the wrong thread. I rather like Knitter's Review but haven't really followed the forums. Clara Parkes has been a guest on Knitting Daily (PBS) and writes the review.


I've been to their knitting retreats a few times. Clara Parkes is a wonderfully funny, energetic, exuberant person. But the reason I brought it up is in case we ever want to escape the eyes of the rwn's. There seems a be a much less "punishing" feeling in their forums.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I've been to their knitting retreats a few times. Clara Parkes is a wonderfully funny, energetic, exuberant person. But the reason I brought it up is in case we ever want to escape the eyes of the rwn's. There seems a be a much less "punishing" feeling in their forums.


I thought that may have been a hint.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ALCAMERON (and anyone else who's interested)

I never found the puzzle with the orlon answer, but I found these, in the comments to a blog about the NYTimes crossword http://rexwordpuzzle.blogspot.com/2014/04/middle-part-of-pedestal-tue-4-15-14-tv.html

1 Questinia 12:04 AM

HORticultural gARDen= ORCHARD.
ORLON an "alternative" for cashmere? Only in an alternate universe

2 Jisvan 12:22 AM

@Questina, hearty agreement on the cashmere-Orlon reference! I know it's just a crossword puzzle, but who could write such a clue? I guess we all have our areas of expertise...

3 @Questinia, I know less about fashion than almost anything else, but even I know ORLON and cashmere aren't alternatives for each other. Maybe rayon and wool ???? Pure guess. Kinda like the car problems. A smartcar as an alternative to an Aston Martin??? Ahhhhh, now my head hurts.

4 As usual I agree with Questinia, I was looking at something like merino or its ilk. Orlon was weird.

5 There was some grumbling recently about clueing a MIATA as an alternative to a Mustang. I'm already seeing expressions of discontent over clueing ORLON as an alternative to Cashmere.

Maybe next we'll see VELVEETA clued as an alternative to Brie.

Yeah, it don't sound right, but, hey, all are legitimate alternatives. Maybe not of equal value or regard, but alternatives nonetheless.

6 chefwen 1:49 AM

It hurt me, but I finally had to put in ORLON, wanted Angora, but it was not to be and didn't fit. Oh well.

7 ORLON - I am decidedly en rapport with the sweater-wearers who would shun this over cashmere, so I agree, it's a MIATA/Mustang kind of clue.

8 It's a crossword puzzle SAT question:

Cashmere:ORLON as ________:MIATA

9 I had an ORLON sweater as a teenager, and 50 years later wrote it in right away. So much for my taste!

10 Head still shaking at the ORLON clue.

11 Orlon:Cashmere as Miata:Matchbox Limo (as in "my other car is..."

12 quilter1 9:20 AM

I don't know much baseball terminology but got it all. Agree with all others about ORLON. Always go with the natural fiber.

13 I take issue with the lower right corner. ORLON is not a cashmere alternative (orlon is synthetic trash) and oranges do not come from ORCHARDs (they come from groves).

14 The clue didn't say "equivalent"; it said "alternative". A less expensive orlon sweater--or Miata--adequately fulfills the need.

15 Questinia 11:29 AM

Alternative implies choice and no one would choose ORLON over cashmere. A blow-up doll is not an alternative to a man. Only out of extreme hunger and a state of dissociation.

16 Steve J 11:32 AM

I'll be a lonely voice in the wilderness defending ORLON (as an answer, not as a fabric). Cashmere is a type of wool. ORLON is a brand of synthetic wool fiber. Therefore, it is indeed an alternative. The clue didn't say it was a good alternative.

17 ORLON should not even be in the same drawer as cashmere

18 Hand up for the whole cashmere/ORLON thing. Gary (not a girl apparently) what were ewe thinking.

19 Cashmere may not be so bad. It comes from the underbelly of cashmere goats, where in nature it would provide insulation from the cold. But many goats are slaughtered for food right after being shorn so I guess it's all good.

There are a lot of synthetics that are more "natural-seeming" than ORLON, but the more I know about where natural animal fibers come from, the better ORLON looks to me.

20 High point of American fashion: ORLON bowling shirt.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> ALCAMERON (and anyone else who's interested)
> 
> I never found the puzzle with the orlon answer, but I found these, in the comments to a blog about the NYTimes crossword http://rexwordpuzzle.blogspot.com/2014/04/middle-part-of-pedestal-tue-4-15-14-tv.html
> 
> ...


These comments were hilarious! I'll have to start checking out the forums there.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

The news is that a Democratic State Senator 
from Virginia resigned his post today. Phil Puckett (no relation to Kirby Puckett) thought he might make more money in the Tobacco industry. 
I am sure the GOP will try and turn this into some sort of scandal. Rumor has it that the GOP paid him a lot of dough to resign and offer him the Tobacco position. 
I am happy to hear that he is not a US Senator.
His resignation may put the state's medicare and medicaid plans up in smoke. What is it with these southern politicians?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> The news is that a Democratic State Senator
> from Virginia resigned his post today. Phil Puckett (no relation to Kirby Puckett) thought he might make more money in the Tobacco industry.
> I am sure the GOP will try and turn this into some sort of scandal. Rumor has it that the GOP paid him a lot of dough to resign and offer him the Tobacco position.
> I am happy to hear that he is not a US Senator.
> His resignation may put the state's medicare and medicaid plans up in smoke. What is it with these southern politicians?


It's not only the southerners. We had a state senator who ran as a Dem but voted with the Reps, making the State Senate majority Rep. He's up for election in November, and a real Democrat is running against him. There's so far been no talk of what he was offered.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I have to wonder if they are really dems going in. Coul;d they be republicans running as Dems? 
Oh well, I guess every party has their poopers!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> The news is that a Democratic State Senator
> from Virginia resigned his post today. Phil Puckett (no relation to Kirby Puckett) thought he might make more money in the Tobacco industry.
> I am sure the GOP will try and turn this into some sort of scandal. Rumor has it that the GOP paid him a lot of dough to resign and offer him the Tobacco position.
> I am happy to hear that he is not a US Senator.
> His resignation may put the state's medicare and medicaid plans up in smoke. What is it with these southern politicians?


That is what my wonderful republican governor did to Swati Dandekar who was an Iowa state senator. He offered her a seat on the utility board and she took it. Then there was a special election, but lucky for Iowa the democrat won. Had the republican won, they would have had complete control of the state, and all the crap happening in other republican states would have been going on in Iowa too. Dandekar just ran for US house from Iowa and lost in the primary. I am glad she lost cause it is obvious we can't depend on her to finish what she starts. 
I am sure it will benefit the GOP, or they wouldn't have bothered.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I have to wonder if they are really dems going in. Coul;d they be republicans running as Dems?
> Oh well, I guess every party has their poopers!


Yes, there is the republican from Arizona who changed his name and became a democrat.

One failed GOP candidate will do just about anything to win in Arizona's heavily Hispanic 7th congressional district -- including switching parties and legally changing his name to that of Hispanic labor and civil rights icon Cesar Chavez. [...]

The candidate formerly known as Scott Fistler also prominently displayed photos on his website of crowds carrying signs and wearing T-shirts with the name "Chavez." But the photos, as the Capitol Times pointed out, were actually of Venezuelans rallying for deceased former President Hugo Chavez.

He is one of 6 democrats running for the seat and their primary is in August. Lets hope Arizona is smarter than he is.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

my Evil republican twin lives in Arizona. Totally wacked out state.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Don't forget Diane Sawyer will interview Hillary tonight at 8:00 central time on ABC.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

NJG said:


> Don't forget Diane Sawyer will interview Hillary tonight at 8:00 central time on ABC.


Thanks for that reminder. I have popcorn for the occasion!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> That is what my wonderful republican governor did to Swati Dandekar who was an Iowa state senator. He offered her a seat on the utility board and she took it. Then there was a special election, but lucky for Iowa the democrat won. Had the republican won, they would have had complete control of the state, and all the crap happening in other republican states would have been going on in Iowa too. Dandekar just ran for US house from Iowa and lost in the primary. I am glad she lost cause it is obvious we can't depend on her to finish what she starts.
> I am sure it will benefit the GOP, or they wouldn't have bothered.


Do you remember Zell Miller, who'd been a lifelong Democrat, then appeared as a speaker at the 2004 Repub convention? When Chris Matthews interviewed him, he said he wanted to have a duel with Matthews.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Do you remember Zell Miller, who'd been a lifelong Democrat, then appeared as a speaker at the 2004 Repub convention? When Chris Matthews interviewed him, he said he wanted to have a duel with Matthews.


I wonder if that sent a tingle down Chris's spine. 
A duel, huh? Pistols or epees?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I wonder if that sent a tingle down Chris's spine.
> A duel, huh? Pistols or epees?


Didn't Chris's tingles go down his leg? For the duel, scimitars with damascene steel blades.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Didn't Chris's tingles go down his leg? For the duel, scimitars with damascene steel blades.


During Obama's 1st debate the tingles ran up his leg. I figured a challenge to a duel would really get him going!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I watched with dismay the Diane Sawyer-Hillary Clinton interview. 
Was it just me or did Diane seem to be uncomfortable?
She was so twitchy. I thought that she had something in her eye, but when she started making faces and squirming, the problem seemed inevitable. 
I think Hillary took the barbs well and appeared as tough as ever. 
If Rand Paul is going to use Monica Lewinsky against her IF she runs, he will be giving her the keys to the White House.
What a dweeb! He can't hold a candle to her, so he will use her husbands digression against her. Typical RWN behavior.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Do you remember Zell Miller, who'd been a lifelong Democrat, then appeared as a speaker at the 2004 Repub convention? When Chris Matthews interviewed him, he said he wanted to have a duel with Matthews.


Yes, I had forgotten about him until you mentioned the dual.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I watched with dismay the Diane Sawyer-Hillary Clinton interview.
> Was it just me or did Diane seem to be uncomfortable?
> She was so twitchy. I thought that she had something in her eye, but when she started making faces and squirming, the problem seemed inevitable.
> I think Hillary took the barbs well and appeared as tough as ever.
> ...


Typical RWN behavior, indeed. Of the kind Joeysomma attributes to Saul Alinsky.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Good News!

Eric Cantor lost the primary to a Tea Partier and won't be running on the GOP ticket. This, I hope, means one more House seat in the Dem. column. And a real creep gotten rid of.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

From Day One of Obamas presidency, Eric Cantor has used every dirty trick to block the Democratic agenda. There are so many big issues we could make progress on without Republicans like Eric Cantor in our way: raising the minimum wage, passing comprehensive immigration reform, student loan reform, and making millionaires and billionaires pay their fair share just to name a few.

And tonight, Cantor has been thrown out by the Tea Party base that hes kowtowed to at every turn.

If youre also glad that Cantors been shown the door, sign our card to let him know:

http://dccc.org/Bye-Bye-Eric-Cantor

DCCC Election Results

P.S. Make sure to forward this to friends and family so they can share in the good news too!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Good News!
> 
> Eric Cantor lost the primary to a Tea Partier and won't be running on the GOP ticket. This, I hope, means one more House seat in the Dem. column. And a real creep gotten rid of.
> 
> ...


Glad he is gone. I'll bet he is in shock. I sat here with my mouth open. Don't really know anything about this tea party guy except he is against immigration.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

yeah I got the same Cantor notice. Certainly, I prefer to see him teaching at a University or working in a law firm. But who is the tea party guy and who is the Democratic hopeful?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I am dancing the happy dance, knowing that Cantor lost the primary!! I never liked or trusted anything about that man.
He stood a little too close behind John Boehner if you ask me. I wonder if it ewas a knife he was sticking into his back.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

NJG said:


> Glad he is gone. I'll bet he is in shock. I sat here with my mouth open. Don't really know anything about this tea party guy except he is against immigration.


Well, there goes the Latino vote for him!!


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Good News!
> 
> Eric Cantor lost the primary to a Tea Partier and won't be running on the GOP ticket. This, I hope, means one more House seat in the Dem. column. And a real creep gotten rid of.
> 
> ...


Yay!


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Just read this on Daily Kos. I'll bet Cantor was surprised.

What makes this result even more stunning is that a pair of late polls showed Cantor with considerable leads: An independent survey from Vox Populi had him up 52-39, while Cantor's own internal from McLaughlin & Associates gave him an even wider 62-28 advantage. But as we noted, McLaughlin is one of the worst pollsters in the business, and boy, did they cement that reputation tonight

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/06/10/1306004/-Holy-smokes-Eric-Cantor-loses-GOP-primary-to-absolutely-unknown-underfunded-challenger?detail=email

Just heard Lindsay Graham won his primary easily.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> Just read this on Daily Kos. I'll bet Cantor was surprised.
> 
> What makes this result even more stunning is that a pair of late polls showed Cantor with considerable leads: An independent survey from Vox Populi had him up 52-39, while Cantor's own internal from McLaughlin & Associates gave him an even wider 62-28 advantage. But as we noted, McLaughlin is one of the worst pollsters in the business, and boy, did they cement that reputation tonight
> 
> ...


Those optimistic polls make me very happy - the disappointment must have been huge.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Those optimistic polls make me very happy - the disappointment must have been huge.


And he can either go back to being a doc or whatever he was or taking a nice, cushy job as a lobbyist.
(No, I guess it's Paul who's a doctor)


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Warning! Satire alert Warning! Satire alert Warning! Satire alert Warning!

June 10, 2014
*Virginians Choose Even Bigger Tool*
Posted by Andy Borowitz

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)  In a development that few had thought possible, Republicans in the Seventh District of Virginia on Tuesday night found an even bigger tool than Rep. Eric Cantor to represent them in the United States Congress.

Apparently deciding that Cantor was insufficiently heartless to represent their district, Republicans turned out to the polls to elect David Brat, a man whose political views border on sociopathy, according to exit-poll responses from voters who supported him.

During his concession speech, Rep. Cantor reflected on the mistakes that might have led to his defeat: Should I have cut more school-lunch programs for poor children? Perhaps. Should I have cast more votes to screw over disaster victims? Definitely. Should I have not said the thing about treating children of immigrants like human beings? Man, do I wish I could take that one back. Hindsight is twenty-twenty, but at the end of the day I was just too damn empathic for this district.

But Rep. Cantor was gracious in defeat, offering words of congratulation to the victorious Mr. Brat. The people of the Seventh District have spoken, he said. The time has come to pass the torch to a new generation of asshats.

When asked about the defeat of his longtime colleague in the House, Speaker John Boehner said, I will give a formal statement as soon as I can stop laughing.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Warning! Satire alert Warning! Satire alert Warning! Satire alert Warning!
> 
> June 10, 2014
> *Virginians Choose Even Bigger Tool*
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Didn't Chris's tingles go down his leg? For the duel, scimitars with damascene steel blades.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: About face.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think they have prepared a smear campaign that will defeat Hillary. I think they over-estimate themselves and they vastly under-rate the lady. Should be interesting. Or, as Arte Johnson says, 'very interesting.'



BrattyPatty said:


> I watched with dismay the Diane Sawyer-Hillary Clinton interview.
> Was it just me or did Diane seem to be uncomfortable?
> She was so twitchy. I thought that she had something in her eye, but when she started making faces and squirming, the problem seemed inevitable.
> I think Hillary took the barbs well and appeared as tough as ever.
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I think they have prepared a smear campaign that will defeat Hillary. I think they over-estimate themselves and they vastly under-rate the lady. Should be interesting. Or, as Arte Johnson says, 'very interesting.'


They've already started, with brain damage, which she so obviously doesn't have. I'm sure she'll run rings around them.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Shouldn't the title be, "Virginians Choose Even Bigger Fool?" This is all a big joke, right?



Poor Purl said:


> Warning! Satire alert Warning! Satire alert Warning! Satire alert Warning!
> 
> June 10, 2014
> *Virginians Choose Even Bigger Tool*
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Shouldn't the title be, "Virginians Choose Even Bigger Fool?" This is all a big joke, right?


Six of one.... "Tool" is more recent slang, but they mean pretty much the same thing.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Iraq. What a cluster! I heard the president say that he would not send ground troops back into Iraq. Good move on his part.
The RWN's are blaming Obama already for the situation over there. When will they take the blinders off and see that he inherited this war and ended it as he promised to do? Never mind, what am I thinking? We all know that will never happen. :|


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Iraq. What a cluster! I heard the president say that he would not send ground troops back into Iraq.
> The RWN's are blaming Obama already for the situation over there. When will they take the blinders off and see that he inherited this war and ended it as he promised to do? Nevermind, we all know that will never happen.


They've already begun to blame him for Cantor's defeat *in a Republican primary.* They love those blinders.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> They've already begun to blame him for Cantor's defeat *in a Republican primary.* They love those blinders.


 :XD: :XD: That's funny! Cantor lost because he ignored his constituents. I have never been so happy to see a House Rep lose a race. Well, I was happy when Bachmann announced that she will not run again. That one got a cartwheel!


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Iraq. What a cluster! I heard the president say that he would not send ground troops back into Iraq.
> The RWN's are blaming Obama already for the situation over there. When will they take the blinders off and see that he inherited this war and ended it as he promised to do? Nevermind, we all know that will never happen.


I think we should stay out of it all together. It is time for them to take care of themselves. I think they said the Iraq soldiers took off their uniforms and ran. If they won't defend themselves, why should we do it? None of these extremists were in Iraq, until Bush opened the door for them. Let him take his a-- over there and settle it. McCain and Graham are loving that there are problems in Iraq so they can say I told you so. They are idiots.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> They've already begun to blame him for Cantor's defeat *in a Republican primary.* They love those blinders.


Hey, they can blame me for Cantor's defeat. I would love to take the credit for that one.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

NJG said:


> I think we should stay out of it all together. It is time for them to take care of themselves. I think they said the Iraq soldiers took off their uniforms and ran. If they won't defend themselves, why should we do it? None of these extremists were in Iraq, until Bush opened the door for them. Let him take his a-- over there and settle it. McCain and Graham are loving that there are problems in Iraq so they can say I told you so. They are idiots.


It's hard to believe or put any worth into anything McCain says. He changes his stance too often. 
I agree, there have been too many American lives lost already over there. We can't afford another war. We can't pay for Bush's follies as it is.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

This is what Dave Brat had to say about healthcare. So by smarter decisions I guess he means if you don't have enough money, you just won't go to the Dr, or take your child. Can I say he is an idiot? 

The reason there's a health care cost problem is just simple econimics. It's because the consumer isn't seeing the full price of health care. Right? If you take your kid in for the sniffles you pay 20 bucks but the full cost is 200 dollars.
So we need to get back to the price system where you see the full cost of health care then people will make smarter decisions.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> This is what Dave Brat had to say about healthcare. So by smarter decisions I guess he means if you don't have enough money, you just won't go to the Dr, or take your child. Can I say he is an idiot?
> 
> The reason there's a health care cost problem is just simple econimics. It's because the consumer isn't seeing the full price of health care. Right? If you take your kid in for the sniffles you pay 20 bucks but the full cost is 200 dollars.
> So we need to get back to the price system where you see the full cost of health care then people will make smarter decisions.


Yes, you certainly can say he's an idiot. Because he obviously is.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Good News!
> 
> Eric Cantor lost the primary to a Tea Partier and won't be running on the GOP ticket. This, I hope, means one more House seat in the Dem. column. And a real creep gotten rid of.
> 
> ...


Take a good look at the head shots of Eric Cantor and David Brat. They look like candidates for one of those "separated at birth" laughers that come up once in a while. More so than most of the celebs shown on 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/26/celebrity-look-a-likes-separated-at-birth-photos-slideshow_n_938487.html as a matter of fact! I wonder whether voters became confused and thought it was the same guy?


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Those optimistic polls make me very happy - the disappointment must have been huge.


Kind of depends who is taking the poll and who paid for the poll. The only poll that counts is the one when the ballots are counted. And who is counting them. And who is watching when they are counted. I am not too cynical, but I spent high school living very near Chicago.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> I think they have prepared a smear campaign that will defeat Hillary. I think they over-estimate themselves and they vastly under-rate the lady. Should be interesting. Or, as Arte Johnson says, 'very interesting.'


She is a very smart woman who can really talk the high road. I doubt they will ever catch her with her foot in her mouth from here on in.

Remember Ann Richards priceless comment about G.H. W. Bush? "He was born with a silver foot in his mouth" If that hasn't made it into the latest edition of Bartlett's, it should.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Take a good look at the head shots of Eric Cantor and David Brat. They look like candidates for one of those "separated at birth" laughers that come up once in a while. More so than most of the celebs shown on
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/26/celebrity-look-a-likes-separated-at-birth-photos-slideshow_n_938487.html as a matter of fact! I wonder whether voters became confused and thought it was the same guy?


They do look alike, the way Ted Cruz looks like Joe McCarthy. Except that Cantor's so short, they most have known that the average-sized guy was brat.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Kind of depends who is taking the poll and who paid for the poll. The only poll that counts is the one when the ballots are counted. And who is counting them. And who is watching when they are counted. I am not too cynical, but I spent high school living very near Chicago.


It was Cantor's own pollster that had him winning by about 30 points. I hope Cantor hasn't paid him yet. Wait, I hope Cantor paid through the nose.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> She is a very smart woman who can really talk the high road. I doubt they will ever catch her with her foot in her mouth from here on in.
> 
> Remember Ann Richards priceless comment about G.H. W. Bush? "He was born with a silver foot in his mouth" If that hasn't made it into the latest edition of Bartlett's, it should.


And yet Ann Richards lost that election to Bush. Maybe the public doesn't like smart women. Maybe if the McCain-Palin ticket had been Palin-McCain, we'd have ----------------oh, no.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm with you and the President Patty. We were forced into a quagmire by the Bush/Cheney admin for no good reason. We were forced to lay down lives, money and resources to aid Iraq in creating a democratic government (by the way, I'm not sure that's what the Iraqi people wanted.)

President Obama got us out of there. We should not go back. Offer refugee status where deserved.



BrattyPatty said:


> Iraq. What a cluster! I heard the president say that he would not send ground troops back into Iraq. Good move on his part.
> The RWN's are blaming Obama already for the situation over there. When will they take the blinders off and see that he inherited this war and ended it as he promised to do? Never mind, what am I thinking? We all know that will never happen. :|


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> :XD: :XD: That's funny! Cantor lost because he ignored his constituents. I have never been so happy to see a House Rep lose a race. Well, I was happy when Bachmann announced that she will not run again. That one got a cartwheel!


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: That's my Patty! Head on the ground. Feet in the air. Giggles all around.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

NJG said:


> I think we should stay out of it all together. It is time for them to take care of themselves. I think they said the Iraq soldiers took off their uniforms and ran. If they won't defend themselves, why should we do it? None of these extremists were in Iraq, until Bush opened the door for them. Let him take his a-- over there and settle it. McCain and Graham are loving that there are problems in Iraq so they can say I told you so. They are idiots.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: With you all the way.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Yes, you certainly can say he's an idiot. Because he obviously is.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: He's earned that 'distinction.'


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> It was Cantor's own pollster that had him winning by about 30 points. I hope Cantor hasn't paid him yet. Wait, I hope Cantor paid through the nose.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: It just makes the result of the election more satisfying.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I was just reading that Hillary Clinton's new book "Hard Choices" is doing tremendously well! Pre-sales are over a million copies. I can't wait until it hits the shelves!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I'd like to know if any of our NY friends are marching across the Brooklyn Bridge to push for gun control


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm sure it won't make any new friends....but the rest will love it.



BrattyPatty said:


> I was just reading that Hillary Clinton's new book "Hard Choices" is doing tremendously well! Pre-sales are over a million copies. I can't wait until it hits the shelves!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I'd like to know if any of our NY friends are marching across the Brooklyn Bridge to push for gun control


I wish I could, but my ankle doesn't even permit me to march across my living room.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> I'd like to know if any of our NY friends are marching across the Brooklyn Bridge to push for gun control


Not I, said the Sloth.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Republican: If a Woman Has Right to an Abortion, a Man Should Have Right to Force Himself on a Woman

Republican Maine state Representative Lawrence Lockman is under fire for comments hes made in the media regarding rape, abortion, and homosexuality.

An investigation by Mike Tipping, an activist with Maine Peoples Alliance, found numerous offensive comments made by the Republican in various newspaper interviews.

Perhaps the most inflammatory was a press statement from 1995 in which Lockman says If a woman has (the right to an abortion), why shouldnt a man be free to use his superior strength to force himself on a woman? At least the rapists pursuit of sexual freedom doesnt (in most cases) result in anyones death.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/06/17/1307761/-GOP-Rape-Advisory-Chart-How-the-hell-did-this-one-escape-my-attention?detail=email


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> Republican: If a Woman Has Right to an Abortion, a Man Should Have Right to Force Himself on a Woman
> 
> Republican Maine state Representative Lawrence Lockman is under fire for comments hes made in the media regarding rape, abortion, and homosexuality.
> 
> ...


What a pig!

BTW, what is "emergency rape"? It's too small to read. I guess I could open Kos and read it there. Never mind.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

alcameron said:


> I'd like to know if any of our NY friends are marching across the Brooklyn Bridge to push for gun control


Not NY, but my daughter and a contingent of her Moms Demand Action friends went from NJ.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I can't understand how ANY woman, ANY intelligent man, ANYONE who has a mother or daughter......can vote GOP.



NJG said:


> Republican: If a Woman Has Right to an Abortion, a Man Should Have Right to Force Himself on a Woman
> 
> Republican Maine state Representative Lawrence Lockman is under fire for comments hes made in the media regarding rape, abortion, and homosexuality.
> 
> ...


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> I can't understand how ANY woman, ANY intelligent man, ANYONE who has a mother or daughter......can vote GOP.


I live in a gerrymandered Republican stronghold. On the purely local level here in town when we moved here there was no party involved in the mayoral or town council elections. A bunch of people presented themselves, many of whom were life long residents. The people voted and party affiliation had no part in deciding whether the majority of voters wanted Jim or Tom as the mayor. Those were the days before Millicent when Mary or Linda wouldn't have had a chance. (Our magnificent Millicent transcended politics and was the template for Lacey Davenport)

Then along came parties, and the candidates had to declare. Most of the guys who were in declared themselves Republican because they knew that they could not be elected if they declared themselves Democrat in this county. Same guys, some decent and intelligent, some dodos with delusions of grandeur. So on the purely local township or county level, we had choices of people we knew. Everything county is Republican and if the state were run as well we wouldn't be in the huge mess we're in now. They've had their duds, but the Democrats in the state have had their thieves and other embarrassments. The two prior governors really had their moments in the spotlight. And back a number of years before the rhetoric really became vituperative we had a Republican governor who was a sensible moderate, worked with both sides of the aisle, and tried to pattern processes to benefit the general populace. He and an ancient former Democratic governor write a political column together and they both make sense more often than I would have thought possible. Both gentlemen, both civil and well spoken.

It is on the larger stage that we get the flagrant misogynists and really scary people. Personally, I can't trust any of them. To get to the State or National stage nowadays these people have had to pander to all sorts of interests and are in the pockets of the big money. That is in both parties. It is a rare David Brat who can win an election on no money and a line people will hook on to. I have a long held theory that the people who would make the most effective and valuable leaders have the morals that they can't be bought and they don't want to wallow in the mud of a campaign. The financial support they could get from the general public would never match the big bucks thrown at the buyable.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

I have never considered party affiliation when voting in municipal elections.It is so much easier on that level to gain some info on values, morals, real performance and where we agree. I pretty much figure that people register as whatever Mom and Dad were if they stay local.



MarilynKnits said:


> I live in a gerrymandered Republican stronghold. On the purely local level here in town when we moved here there was no party involved in the mayoral or town council elections. A bunch of people presented themselves, many of whom were life long residents. The people voted and party affiliation had no part in deciding whether the majority of voters wanted Jim or Tom as the mayor. Those were the days before Millicent when Mary or Linda wouldn't have had a chance. (Our magnificent Millicent transcended politics and was the template for Lacey Davenport)
> 
> Then along came parties, and the candidates had to declare. Most of the guys who were in declared themselves Republican because they knew that they could not be elected if they declared themselves Democrat in this county. Same guys, some decent and intelligent, some dodos with delusions of grandeur. So on the purely local township or county level, we had choices of people we knew. Everything county is Republican and if the state were run as well we wouldn't be in the huge mess we're in now. They've had their duds, but the Democrats in the state have had their thieves and other embarrassments. The two prior governors really had their moments in the spotlight. And back a number of years before the rhetoric really became vituperative we had a Republican governor who was a sensible moderate, worked with both sides of the aisle, and tried to pattern processes to benefit the general populace. He and an ancient former Democratic governor write a political column together and they both make sense more often than I would have thought possible. Both gentlemen, both civil and well spoken.
> 
> It is on the larger stage that we get the flagrant misogynists and really scary people. Personally, I can't trust any of them. To get to the State or National stage nowadays these people have had to pander to all sorts of interests and are in the pockets of the big money. That is in both parties. It is a rare David Brat who can win an election on no money and a line people will hook on to. I have a long held theory that the people who would make the most effective and valuable leaders have the morals that they can't be bought and they don't want to wallow in the mud of a campaign. The financial support they could get from the general public would never match the big bucks thrown at the buyable.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

What is happening this week? This ruling could come down this week.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

NJG said:


> What is happening this week? This ruling could come down this week.


Hi, NJG. I hope all is well with you. Haven't seen you for awhile.

Well, I don't trust THIS Supreme Court.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Hi, NJG. I hope all is well with you. Haven't seen you for awhile.
> 
> Well, I don't trust THIS Supreme Court.


Yes, everything is good here, except it is raining again today. It seems it is always storm warnings these days, never just some rain, always have to get wind or hail etc with it. T-ball is over, but Maddie says she is doing soccer so that starts in August. Next year Tucker will probably be in it too. 
Not only is the supreme court not to be trusted, but the rest of Washington too, besides those trying to get in. Like Joni Ernst, from Iowa, you know the pig castrater. She never "cut the pork" in the Iowa senate so don't expect much in Washington either, although like all the repubs, I am sure she will try to cut the snap program and anything to help the poor. Hope all is good with you too and you are enjoying the summer. Norma


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

NJG said:


> What is happening this week? This ruling could come down this week.


Yes, I was just thinking the other day that originally they said the ruling would be in June. Time for positive thoughts and prayers that our rights are not eroded more.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

NJG said:


> Republican: If a Woman Has Right to an Abortion, a Man Should Have Right to Force Himself on a Woman
> 
> Republican Maine state Representative Lawrence Lockman is under fire for comments hes made in the media regarding rape, abortion, and homosexuality.
> 
> ...


This gives us a clue why we have a "culture" of rape in this country!!!!!!


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

peacegoddess said:


> This gives us a clue why we have a "culture" of rape in this country!!!!!!


That sort of thinking seems to be everywhere.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> This gives us a clue why we have a "culture" of rape in this country!!!!!!


It is not just this country. There are other countries where rape is not even considered a crime and women are absolutely not safe from predators. No legal recourse. And in some countries the raped women are killed or banished from their families.

In this country and many other civilized countries rape is recognized as a crime and perpetrators are prosecuted.

But there are still neanderthals in enforcement and the government who just don't get it or who are so threatened by women that they see rape as a way to "control" society as they want it to be.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> It is not just this country. There are other countries where rape is not even considered a crime and women are absolutely not safe from predators. No legal recourse. And in some countries the raped women are killed or banished from their families.
> 
> In this country and many other civilized countries rape is recognized as a crime and perpetrators are prosecuted.
> 
> But there are still neanderthals in enforcement and the government who just don't get it or who are so threatened by women that they see rape as a way to "control" society as they want it to be.


I understand what you are saying about other countries, but I am concentrating on our culture because so many in the US see us as being the "greatest country in the world", so we need to point out we are not on any type of high road when it comes to the issue of rape. The rapes in the U S military are tantamount to war crimes..


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The way I see it the true danger lies in thinking everything has changed. It hasn't. What's present in people's minds is all that's true to them. Law is some theoretical thing.



jellen said:


> That sort of thinking seems to be everywhere.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> I understand what you are saying about other countries, but I am concentrating on our culture because so many in the US see us as being the "greatest country in the world", so we need to point out we are not on any type of high road when it comes to the issue of rape. The rapes in the U S military are tantamount to war crimes..


And the ones on college campuses are just as disturbing.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> And the ones on college campuses are just as disturbing.


It's frightening to think that young people accept this. The beat goes on.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

The law, it seems, only applies to other people. It is for those people whom we don't know or care about. 
For the first time in I cannot tell you how long I actually received support on news sites for that were focusing on that young man in TX who is facing a ridiculous sentence for selling drugs. I am in sympathy, my position though, is I can actively support him when all of the people of color who are unjustifiable incarcerated for the same charges are supported by petitions and rallies. Where the hell were people when those men and women have been jailed?



damemary said:


> The way I see it the true danger lies in thinking everything has changed. It hasn't. What's present in people's minds is all that's true to them. Law is some theoretical thing.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

On his TV show today (MSNBC) Ed Schultz presented a very good opening monologue about how the right wing conservatives are firing up the masses (RWN'S) with their rhetoric. He calls on party leaders and elected officials to tone this kind of talk down, which is kind of difficult when some of the crap is coming from elected officials. Can you imagine someone like Dwight D. Eisenhower behaving like this? Sometimes I'm glad I'm as old as I am so I don't have to watch the ruin of the US by right wing nut jobs and "patriots."
Honestly!!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Barry Goldwater? They came to criticize him for not being conservative enough. There used to be room for a moderate wing of the GOP, such as Nelson Rockefeller. The only way this group can get elected to anything is by raising and spending Billions on 30 second ads designed to attract voter's basest instincts. Oh, they'll need gerrymandering and cutting off minorities/majorities from registering too.



alcameron said:


> On his TV show today (MSNBC) Ed Schultz presented a very good opening monologue about how the right wing conservatives are firing up the masses (RWN'S) with their rhetoric. He calls on party leaders and elected officials to tone this kind of talk down, which is kind of difficult when some of the crap is coming from elected officials. Can you imagine someone like Dwight D. Eisenhower behaving like this? Sometimes I'm glad I'm as old as I am so I don't have to watch the ruin of the US by right wing nut jobs and "patriots."
> Honestly!!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> On his TV show today (MSNBC) Ed Schultz presented a very good opening monologue about how the right wing conservatives are firing up the masses (RWN'S) with their rhetoric. He calls on party leaders and elected officials to tone this kind of talk down, which is kind of difficult when some of the crap is coming from elected officials. Can you imagine someone like Dwight D. Eisenhower behaving like this? Sometimes I'm glad I'm as old as I am so I don't have to watch the ruin of the US by right wing nut jobs and "patriots."
> Honestly!!


Isn't it sad that we had to live through Nixon and Reagan and a couple of Bushes and finally, when things could have changed for the better, we end up with this? What we're seeing now is a party that has nothing to offer 90% of the population managing to fool a lot of the people all of the time.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DAME! I put on a dress just for you, and you've changed your avatar again. Is that a hobbit house?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Isn't it sad that we had to live through Nixon and Reagan and a couple of Bushes and finally, when things could have changed for the better, we end up with this? What we're seeing now is a party that has nothing to offer 90% of the population managing to fool a lot of the people all of the time.


Why is it OK for this idiot (Bobby Jindal) to be calling for a "hostile takeover" of the government?? And Michelle Bachmann to run around saying she wanted to see everyone "armed and dangerous?" I'm sure my father, uncle, grandparents, who came to this country many years ago are rolling over in their graves if they can see what's going on in this country! I just don't get all the negativity and hatred directed toward the federal government in general, and, of course, Obama in particular.
http://www.nola.com/news/baton-rouge/index.ssf/2014/06/gov_bobby_jindal_says_rebellio.html


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> DAME! I put on a dress just for you, and you've changed your avatar again. Is that a hobbit house?


I think it's a desert hacienda, nu?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm just in a changeable mood I guess. It's a garden in front of a Taos adobe. Just a touch of the Southwest. Cacti will be blooming magnificently. Maybe they'll be next.



Poor Purl said:


> DAME! I put on a dress just for you, and you've changed your avatar again. Is that a hobbit house?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Taos NM adobe. Hugs from the Southwest.



alcameron said:


> I think it's a desert hacienda, nu?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'm just in a changeable mood I guess. It's a garden in front of a Taos adobe. Just a touch of the Southwest. Cacti will be blooming magnificently. Maybe they'll be next.


"In my adobe hacienda, there's a touch of Mexico. . . ." 
Anyone remember that song?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No but.....'South of the border, down Mexico way, That's where I fell in love when stars came out to play.'

My parents had it on an old 78 rpm & my sister and I wore it out.



alcameron said:


> "In my adobe hacienda, there's a touch of Mexico. . . ."
> Anyone remember that song?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Cudos to the Presbyterians for voting to divest from companies doing business with Israel.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Truthfully and personally, I have opposing feelings on this one.

I believe in peace whole-halfheartedly. I yearn for it for all people. I am not Jewish, but I love many Jews. The memory of the Holocaust frames the psyche of many, many souls. It's difficult/impossible to play nicely now.

It's different for us in the rest of the world to truly understand the feeling of being surrounded by enemies and feeling the fear that accompanies it. I hope sincerely that there is a lasting peace in the Middle Eastern region one day....soon....along with all the world for that matter. I'm not wise enough to know how that would happen.

Somehow the news of the Presbyterians divesting their portfolios from companies doing business with Israel seems insulting. IMHO Do we divest ourselves from Iran...or Russia...on and on? I also believe in consistency.



peacegoddess said:


> Cudos to the Presbyterians for voting to divest from companies doing business with Israel.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Here is a link to the George Will column about rape. I heard someone, but don't remember who, say something about the careers of young men in college will be ruined by charges of rape. Well, no not really, if they don't do it! I also heard someone a while back say that it couldn't be rape between a married couple, because, after all she is wearing a nightie. So when did rape become ok, because those poor males can't control themselves.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-will-college-become-the-victims-of-progressivism/2014/06/06/e90e73b4-eb50-11e3-9f5c-9075d5508f0a_story.html?tid=pm_pop


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for providing the article. I am ashamed to report that I could not finish it. I was too angry. I found Mr. Will's invented examples and condescending tone insulting.



NJG said:


> Here is a link to the George Will column about rape. I heard someone, but don't remember who, say something about the careers of young men in college will be ruined by charges of rape. Well, no not really, if they don't do it! I also heard someone a while back say that it couldn't be rape between a married couple, because, after all she is wearing a nightie. So when did rape become ok, because those poor males can't control themselves.
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-will-college-become-the-victims-of-progressivism/2014/06/06/e90e73b4-eb50-11e3-9f5c-9075d5508f0a_story.html?tid=pm_pop


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> Thanks for providing the article. I am ashamed to report that I could not finish it. I was too angry. I found Mr. Will's invented examples and condescending tone insulting.


And we know most of the republicans agree with him, but are just smart enough to keep their mouths shut.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

This may offer another perspective for you on the issue of Palestine and divestment. From 6/23 Democracy Now

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form. 

AMY GOODMAN: We turn now to a discussion on whats being hailed as a major milestone for the global campaign to boycott and divest from Israel over its treatment of Palestinians. At its general convention in Detroit Friday, the Presbyterian Church of the U.S. voted to divest from three companies that it says supply Israel with equipment used in the occupation of Palestinian territory. The companies are Motorola Solutions, Caterpillar and Hewlett-Packard. The value of Presbyterian holdings in the companies is about $21 million. According to the church, the companies profit from Israeli occupation of Palestinian land by selling bulldozers, surveillance technology and other similar products. The decision by the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) to divest passed by seven votes, 310 to 303, making it the largest religious group to vote for divestment. Two years ago, the assembly rejected a similar divestment proposal by two votes. The vote also supported interfaith cooperation, the right of Israel to exist and a two-state solution.

To talk about the votes significance, were joined by two guests. In Cleveland, Ohio, Dr. Nahida Gordon is with us, professor emeritusemerita at Case Western Reserve University. Shes a Palestinian American who was born in Jerusalem before 1948. Shes a Presbyterian, a member of the steering committee of the Israel/Palestine Mission Network in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). In San Francisco, Rabbi Alissa Wise is with us, director of organizing at Jewish Voice for Peace. Her group supported the Presbyterian Churchs divestment decision.

We welcome you both to Democracy Now! I want to begin in Cleveland. Lets begin with Dr. Nahida Gordon. Explain what happened this time. What made this vote different from the vote before, when this was defeated?

NAHIDA GORDON: I think, with time, more people in the Presbyterian Church, particularly the commissioners who were on the floor of the General Assembly, are beginning to know more of what is really going on in the West Bank, in East Jerusalem and Gaza. Thanks to the news and news sources on the Internet, theyre beginning to see more and more of what is going on in Palestine and the terrible conditions under which the Palestinians are living. And I think we built from the last General Assembly to this assembly, and so we know more, we understand more. And we had some people on the floor who said some wonderful things to explain what is going on. And we organized. We worked very hard for this decision. And we succeeded, and were very gratified that we succeeded.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the companies that the Presbyterian Church will divest from?

NAHIDA GORDON: Yes. We feel that the church would be complicit in the occupation if we remain divested in these three companies. Caterpillar, I dont knowmost people have seen these very huge D9 bulldozers, which are weaponizedthey have machine guns on them, and I believe some of them are electrifieddestroy houses with just one simple swipe. Weve seen them uproot olive trees. On May 19th, they used bulldozers to destroy, we believe, between 1,500 and 2,000 fruit trees at the Tent of Nations farm. They build the roads into the West Bank, which are for Israelis only. They have been used in building the separation wall, which goes deep into the West Bank into Palestinian territory. And they help build the settlements.

Now, Motorola Solutions produces fuses for bombs that the Israelis use against the Palestinians. As you well know, they bomb Gaza almost regularly. They also produce surveillance equipment for illegal settlements. These are illegal under international law, and theyre throughout the West Bank.

And Hewlett-Packard produces biometricamongst other things, produces biometric scanners, which the Israelis use in checkpoints, which are throughout and inside the West Bank. There area few of them are on the border between Israel and the West Bank, but the majority, the large majority, are checkpoints within the West Bank.

AMY GOODMAN: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu criticized the decision by the Presbyterian Church to divest from U.S. companies that operate in the Israeli-occupied territories. He spoke on Meet the Press on Sunday.


PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU: It should trouble all people of conscience and morality, because its so disgraceful. You know, you look at whats happening in the Middle Eastand I think most Americans understand thisthey see this enormous area riveted by religious hatred, by savagery of unimaginable proportions. Then you come to Israel, and you see the one democracy that upholds basic human rights, that guards the rights of all minorities, that protects Christians. Christians are persecuted throughout the Middle East. So, most Americans understand that Israel is a beacon of civilization and moderation.

AMY GOODMAN: Were bringing in Rabbi Alissa Wise now, director of organizing at Jewish Voice for Peace. Can you respond to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu?

RABBI ALISSA WISE: Sure. Thank you for having me on this morning. You know, Im concerned about Prime Minister Netanyahus framing of, you know, what Israel is, because, quite certainly, as Dr. Nahida Gordon just described, there are really urgent and critical human rights issues that need to be addressed both within the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, and also theres a critical issue around lack of basic equal rights for Palestinian citizens of Israel. These are the reasons behind, you know, this Presbyterian call for divestment and the reasons so many around the world are urging divestment as a way to remedy the urgent human rights abuses going on on the ground.

AMY GOODMAN: And what is your role as a rabbi in arguing for this in the Presbyterian Church?

RABBI ALISSA WISE: Well, I just spent the last week in Detroit at the Presbyterian General Assembly. And part of my role was, you know, I was invited there by the Israel/Palestine Mission Network and other friends within the Presbyterian community to serve as a witness and a support to the Presbyterian process. You know, there isyou know, as we like to say in the Jewish community, "Ask two Jews a question, get three opinions." So, theres quite a bit of diversity within the Jewish community around these questions around, you know, what to do about what is now a 47-year-old occupation, and how do wehow do we stop these urgent human rights abuses against Palestinians. So, in part, it is to be a strong interfaith partner and support to our friends in the Presbyterian Church, which involves interfaithstrong interfaith partnerships involve kind of staying at the table, even in moments of deep disagreement.

And it is my sincere hope that those in the Jewish community and other faith communities, who might beyou know, disagree with this decision, will stay at the table and, not only that, will actually dig deep to actually hear the message of their Presbyterian brothers and sisters. And, you know, one of the things most frustrating that I find from those others in the Jewish community that oppose the divestment bills is that they have no real practical solution to what to do to end these human rights abuses. You never get to hear their ideas about what will stop settlement construction, what will stop the daily humiliation of Palestinians at checkpoints, what will stop, you know, the bulldozing of olive trees and the demolition of homes. Thats never the conversation at the table. And its my sincerest hope that this action by the Presbyterians will push all of us to kind of ask those critical questions.

AMY GOODMAN: Id like to turn to comments made by the Rabbi Rick Jacobs, the president of the Union for Reform Judaism. He was speaking to CNN in response to the vote.


RABBI RICK JACOBS: I represent the overwhelming majority of the American Jewish community, literally millions, and we are all united. Were not united about everything, but on this, we are completely united, that this act of divestment, which iswhatever the language says, it is an affirmation of the global BDS, the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement. The global BDS has already claimed this as a great victory. This is a very hurtful act that causes the entire Jewish community not only pain, but a sense of betrayal from the Presbyterian Church.

AMY GOODMAN: Rabbi Alissa Wise, your response?

RABBI ALISSA WISE: Yes, I actually did have the opportunity to speak with Rabbi Jacobs myself when I was in Detroit briefly. We spoke about this very issue. You know, I think that because of the intense muzzling that exists within the Jewish community around these issuesthere are severe restrictions that weve seen in the past year through the Open Hillel movement, Jewish students on college campus challenging what are truly McCarthyite restrictions on the way that debate and dialogue can happen around Israel and on college campuseswe actually dont know exactly, you know, how many Jews are supportive of thesethis Israel right or wrong idea, or those that are reallywant to speak out for justice and feel kind of silenced by the policies of the Jewish community.

Beyond that, I think that, you know, Rabbi Jacobs at the Presbyterian General Assembly made a last-ditch effort to strong-arm the Presbyterians to vote against divestment by offering a last-minute meeting with Netanyahu, which, by all accounts, you know, backfired, because it was seen as a manipulation. And its clear that, you know, as I said before, theres not consensus in the Jewish community on any issue, most certainly on this issue. And I think it does a disservice to the entire Jewish community and, most certainly, to our interfaith partners to misrepresent that.

AMY GOODMAN: How many rabbis signed on to the open letter to the Presbyterian Church, Rabbi Wise?

RABBI ALISSA WISE: You mean the open letter from Jewish Voice for Peace?

AMY GOODMAN: Yes, the

RABBI ALISSA WISE: Or the open letter from

AMY GOODMAN: From Jewish Voice for Peace.

RABBI ALISSA WISE: I dont know the exact number. The truth is that its not a numbers game, right? Because of this, you know, there are many rabbis that are supportive of these policies that simply cannot come out of the woodwork, for fear of losing their jobs. Right? So I think that whats most important is that, you know, Jewish Voice for Peace is an organization that is small and growing and being able to kind of create a space for those in the Jewish community that wish to express these values of a hope for equality, justice and self-determination for Palestinians to really come to light and to bear fruit.

AMY GOODMAN: Finally, Dr. Nahida Gordon, where does the Presbyterian Church go from here?

NAHIDA GORDON: Well, technically, we will now not invest in these three companies. And where we go from here? We need to continue to work for the human rights of Palestinians. We are very much concerned with partners in Palestine, as well as with Israel. What we would like to dowere not against the Israeli people. What we would like to do is to see that the government of Israel starts treating the Palestinians better. We would like to see the end of the occupation. Wed like to see Palestinians have their human rights, have freedom. Basically, thats it. We need to see that the Palestinians have their freedom


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Peace Goddess says:


This may offer another perspective for you on the issue of Palestine and divestment. From 6/23 Democracy Now

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form. 


I think that many of us have given, and will continue to give, a great amount of time to thoughts about the various perspectives concerning the stance of the Israeli government and the elected representatives of the Palestinian region. 

I think that damemary asked a valid question. Who are the religious communities investing with? 
Doe they invest with Iran? Are they actively supporting companies that do business with the terrorists who kill Israeli citizens or just pretending that Israel is the only governmental force responsible for civilian deaths? 

Don't get me wrong, I am not all that happy about the disconnect, but, to hurt a people because we don't like what the government is doing doesn't seem any more correct than the continuing embargo against Cuba. 
And yes, I know I am mixing civil and religious actions. I guess I just have to chant "He started it!"


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Why is it OK for this idiot (Bobby Jindal) to be calling for a "hostile takeover" of the government?? And Michelle Bachmann to run around saying she wanted to see everyone "armed and dangerous?" I'm sure my father, uncle, grandparents, who came to this country many years ago are rolling over in their graves if they can see what's going on in this country! I just don't get all the negativity and hatred directed toward the federal government in general, and, of course, Obama in particular.
> http://www.nola.com/news/baton-rouge/index.ssf/2014/06/gov_bobby_jindal_says_rebellio.html


Sound like a bunch of sore losers to me. Whiny babies.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Cudos to the Presbyterians for voting to divest from companies doing business with Israel.


Considering that Israel is the only country in that part of the world that has not threatened to annihilate us, I cannot join in your kudos. If the countries surrounding Israel were not so hostile to its existence, it would not have to take the stand it does.

Can you imagine Tennessee, for example, which is surrounded by eight neighboring states, being besieged by missile attacks, having suicide murderer/bombers blowing up restaurants in Memphis and Nashville, kidnapping children over the Alabama or Kentucky border, and not having any of the rest of the world except perhaps Australia, which is half a world away, as a political friend. Don't you think the government in Nashville would become paranoid and highly defensive? Don't you think the paranoia would be justified?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Cudos to the Presbyterians for voting to divest from companies doing business with Israel.


All it will accomplish is a deep rift between Presbyterians and Jews. If that's what you want, have at it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Truthfully and personally, I have opposing feelings on this one.
> 
> I believe in peace whole-halfheartedly. I yearn for it for all people. I am not Jewish, but I love many Jews. The memory of the Holocaust frames the psyche of many, many souls. It's difficult/impossible to play nicely now.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I have to point out one problem: Israel can't continue to get by on the sympathy felt over the holocaust. There are so many real contributions it has made and will continue to make if only all those well-meaning people would stop getting in the way and making the Palestinians feel that they are justified in trying to wipe out the entire nation.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> Peace Goddess says:
> 
> This may offer another perspective for you on the issue of Palestine and divestment. From 6/23 Democracy Now
> 
> ...


...which is exactly what Jews chant when there's any flareup in the Middle East.

I don't know whether this latest divestiture will have a bad or a good effect, but I know what academic boycotts are doing: since many, if not most, Israeli scientists can't get their works published in research journals, they're finding it hard to move ahead. It's frustrating to have your science held back because your government hasn't yet figured out how to deal with one group, and it doesn't make it any more likely that peace will come over this move.

I find it interesting that the one country chosen for all those divestitures and boycotts is the one country in that region that allows Jews to live there. Jews have lived all over the middle east for 2,000 years, bringing many benefits, and have all been expelled from their homes. Now outsiders are making it difficult for them to live there, too, which fits the Palestinian - and perhaps the entire Arab world - agenda. Surely Israel can't be the only one at fault.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Considering that Israel is the only country in that part of the world that has not threatened to annihilate us, I cannot join in your kudos. If the countries surrounding Israel were not so hostile to its existence, it would not have to take the stand it does.
> 
> Can you imagine Tennessee, for example, which is surrounded by eight neighboring states, being besieged by missile attacks, having suicide murderer/bombers blowing up restaurants in Memphis and Nashville, kidnapping children over the Alabama or Kentucky border, and not having any of the rest of the world except perhaps Australia, which is half a world away, as a political friend. Don't you think the government in Nashville would become paranoid and highly defensive? Don't you think the paranoia would be justified?


A few thumbs up doesn't do this justice. I hope that the well-meaning people here indulge themselves in your thought experiment. Life in Israel is an extremely stressful situation.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

The boycott is not anti Jew, it is anti government policy. Please read some information on Jewish Voice for Peace. Remember the state of Israel did not exist until 1948. Who do you think lived in the area before that time?

Also, how can anyone on this LOLL site justify the destruction of homes, olive groves, and the denial of human rights perpetuated by the Israeli government.

Against divestiture of companies that deal with Israel? Where did you stand during the boycott and divestiture of companies of South Africa?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> Cudos to the Presbyterians for voting to divest from companies doing business with Israel.


Definitely kudos for anti-semitism hiding as a political ideology, along with kudos to the Arabs for killing each other and anyone who gets in their way. And kudos to African Muslims destroying vaginas of toddlers and kudos for North Korea for a dictator who makes his subjects bow to him and live in poverty. And going back to Africa, kudos for kidnapping all those ignored girls. And special kudos to the Italian mafia who will kill a 3 year old who gets in their way. And of course, personal kudos from me to my own Christian fundamentalist who smears his anti-Jewish crap directly in my face. And more kudos to Europe where neo-nazism is on a steep rise and Jewish people are living in fear. And lest we forget - India who has made gang rape a new art.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Given a choice between an olive grove and a child, I will side with the child every time. 
So are the Presbyterians investing in Arab oil?



peacegoddess said:


> The boycott is not anti Jew, it is anti government policy. Please read some information on Jewish Voice for Peace. Remember the state of Israel did not exist until 1948. Who do you think lived in the area before that time?
> 
> Also, how can anyone on this LOLL site justify the destruction of homes, olive groves, and the denial of human rights perpetuated by the Israeli government.
> 
> Against divestiture of companies that deal with Israel? Where did you stand during the boycott and divestiture of companies of South Africa?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> The boycott is not anti Jew, it is anti government policy. Please read some information on Jewish Voice for Peace. Remember the state of Israel did not exist until 1948. Who do you think lived in the area before that time?
> 
> Also, how can anyone on this LOLL site justify the destruction of homes, olive groves, and the denial of human rights perpetuated by the Israeli government.
> 
> Against divestiture of companies that deal with Israel? Where did you stand during the boycott and divestiture of companies of South Africa?


Friend of mine was in the Israeli army in '68 and her group built houses in the Palestinian areas in to help them rebuild. Of course the Arabs tore them down. Jews living in Arab countries for a millennia were expelled from their homes at the same time. Complain about the US for genocide and 2 hundred years of land grabbing wars. Clarity starts at home.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for your thoughts. I can see absolutely no point in the Cuban embargo, and much benefit to both countries in ending it.



jellen said:


> Peace Goddess says:
> 
> This may offer another perspective for you on the issue of Palestine and divestment. From 6/23 Democracy Now
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Considering that Israel is the only country in that part of the world that has not threatened to annihilate us, I cannot join in your kudos. If the countries surrounding Israel were not so hostile to its existence, it would not have to take the stand it does.
> 
> Can you imagine Tennessee, for example, which is surrounded by eight neighboring states, being besieged by missile attacks, having suicide murderer/bombers blowing up restaurants in Memphis and Nashville, kidnapping children over the Alabama or Kentucky border, and not having any of the rest of the world except perhaps Australia, which is half a world away, as a political friend. Don't you think the government in Nashville would become paranoid and highly defensive? Don't you think the paranoia would be justified?


Then add the memory of the annihilation of 6 million.....


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I also feel compelled to ask what the Palestinians are meant to do.



Poor Purl said:


> Thank you. I have to point out one problem: Israel can't continue to get by on the sympathy felt over the holocaust. There are so many real contributions it has made and will continue to make if only all those well-meaning people would stop getting in the way and making the Palestinians feel that they are justified in trying to wipe out the entire nation.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Satire alert. I was ready to add an emoticom but failed to find an appropriate one.



SQM said:


> Definitely kudos for anti-semitism hiding as a political ideology, along with kudos to the Arabs for killing each other and anyone who gets in their way. And kudos to African Muslims destroying vaginas of toddlers and kudos for North Korea for a dictator who makes his subjects bow to him and live in poverty. And going back to Africa, kudos for kidnapping all those ignored girls. And special kudos to the Italian mafia who will kill a 3 year old who gets in their way. And of course, personal kudos from me to my own Christian fundamentalist who smears his anti-Jewish crap directly in my face. And more kudos to Europe where neo-nazism is on a steep rise and Jewish people are living in fear. And lest we forget - India who has made gang rape a new art.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for the perspective. The fact remains that there is a limited amount of land and people who wish to live there. I only wish they all find peace and clarity.



SQM said:


> Friend of mine was in the Israeli army in '68 and her group built houses in the Palestinian areas in to help them rebuild. Of course the Arabs tore them down. Jews living in Arab countries for a millennia were expelled from their homes at the same time. Complain about the US for genocide and 2 hundred years of land grabbing wars. Clarity starts at home.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

I recommend for information on the issue of boycott etc.

The interfaith Network of Spiritual Progressives
Tikkun magazine and Rabbi Michael Lerner
Jewish Voice for Peace
Rabbis for Human Rights.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> I recommend for information on the issue of boycott etc.
> 
> The interfaith Network of Spiritual Progressives
> Tikkun magazine and Rabbi Michael Lerner
> ...


Jews do not think monolithically. I am very familiar with Lerner and know he does not advocate the ruination of Israel. Most progressive Jews hope for a good solution but please don't put us so high on your anti-humanistic rights list. For all disasters, Israel is one of the first responders tho it is never mentioned in the popular press.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

SQM said:


> Jews do not think monolithically. I am very familiar with Lerner and know he does not advocate the ruination of Israel. Most progressive Jews hope for a good solution but please don't put us so high on your anti-humanistic rights list. For all disasters, Israel is one of the first responders tho it is never mentioned in the popular press.


How would you respond to some of the points brought up by Lerner and Jewish Voice for Peace?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

If your life was being constantly threatened are you going to open your door and arms to that person? I am a Zionist. You will never get me to agree with you. Let's move on.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

SQM said:


> If your life was being constantly threatened are you going to open your door and arms to that person? I am a Zionist. You will never get me to agree with you. Let's move on.


I felt that might be so, but I did not want to assume. Thanks.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Assume.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> I also feel compelled to ask what the Palestinians are meant to do.


In the late 1940's the Palestinians were supposed to settle in Jordan in land dedicated to them as their homeland. They rejected that. What they wanted was to usurp the land set aside for the Jews to settle, namely Israel. The goal attributed to the Palestinians is to kill off the Jews "finish what Hitler started" and inhabit Israel, probably renaming it Palestine. Even if I were not Jewish I would find the situation abhorrent.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> The boycott is not anti Jew, it is anti government policy. Please read some information on Jewish Voice for Peace. Remember the state of Israel did not exist until 1948. Who do you think lived in the area before that time?
> 
> Also, how can anyone on this LOLL site justify the destruction of homes, olive groves, and the denial of human rights perpetuated by the Israeli government.
> 
> Against divestiture of companies that deal with Israel? Where did you stand during the boycott and divestiture of companies of South Africa?


The boycott may be anti-government policy, but the main reason Israel is the chosen target is that it has a Jewish government, by and large. I haven't heard of any anti-Russian boycotts; have you?

Jews were living in that area throughout history. Frequently a more powerful (militarily) nation would take over and exile the Jews, but when they could they always came back to the same land. All that happened in 1948 was that Britain decided to save itself a lot of trouble and hand the Mandate over to the Jews who were fighting to _remain_ there.

You seem to be unaware that every few years, some Arab or Muslim country announces the aim of driving Israel to the sea, of destroying it entirely. Apparently they have much better PR than Israel has, because nobody ever talks about the aggression they carry out on Israeli towns, schools, even pizza parlors, killing children, kidnapping teenagers, who knows what else.

As far as the destruction of homes and olive groves, when Ariel Sharon marched out of Gaza, he handed it all to the Palestinians, included home, olive groves, greenhouses, and they destroyed them. Even the greenhouses. And then they allowed the smuggling of arms from Egypt into Gaza. This hardly shows a willingness to negotiate. It's always been all or nothing; Israel built that truly dumb wall simply for security's sake.

The denial of human rights that you talk about was first instituted by Jordan when it ruled the West Bank. Palestinians who had run there from Israel were forced to stay in refugee camps and never assimilated into the population. The same happened in other Arab countries.

Most of the Israeli population would love to live in peace, to be able to buy and sell with the Arabs living there. By the way, I assume you know that the Knesset (Israeli parliament) has Arab members representing Arab districts; you can't say the same about Lebanon or Syria or Iran with regard to Jewish districts *because those countries no longer have Jews living in them*.

Enough, off my soapbox.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Definitely kudos for anti-semitism hiding as a political ideology, along with kudos to the Arabs for killing each other and anyone who gets in their way. And kudos to African Muslims destroying vaginas of toddlers and kudos for North Korea for a dictator who makes his subjects bow to him and live in poverty. And going back to Africa, kudos for kidnapping all those ignored girls. And special kudos to the Italian mafia who will kill a 3 year old who gets in their way. And of course, personal kudos from me to my own Christian fundamentalist who smears his anti-Jewish crap directly in my face. And more kudos to Europe where neo-nazism is on a steep rise and Jewish people are living in fear. And lest we forget - India who has made gang rape a new art.


And kudos to you for pointing all of this out.

But who is your "own Christian fundamentalist" with his anti-Jewish crap?


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> The boycott may be anti-government policy, but the main reason Israel is the chosen target is that it has a Jewish government, by and large. I haven't heard of any anti-Russian boycotts; have you?
> 
> Jews were living in that area throughout history. Frequently a more powerful (militarily) nation would take over and exile the Jews, but when they could they always came back to the same land. All that happened in 1948 was that Britain decided to save itself a lot of trouble and hand the Mandate over to the Jews who were fighting to _remain_ there.
> 
> ...


Your soapbox held the finest Castile. Your words are so true. And in many ways Rabbi Kahane was correct whether people want to acknowledge it or not.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I also feel compelled to ask what the Palestinians are meant to do.


The Palestinians are "meant" to stop threatening to destroy Israel and perhaps become trading partners, as the Jordanians have done. The're meant to start acting civilized and honestly negotiate for peace, rather than pretending that they are the only injured party while planting bombs on buses.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Your soapbox held the finest Castile. Your words are so true. And in many ways Rabbi Kahane was correct whether people want to acknowledge it or not.


He may have been correct, but he was a little nuts. I met him once or twice when I was in high school and going to Bnei Akiva. He also married a former schoolmate of mine whose mother was my mother's friend and who was a distant cousin of my husband's. And we all thought he was a little nuts. But only a little.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> If your life was being constantly threatened are you going to open your door and arms to that person? I am a Zionist. You will never get me to agree with you. Let's move on.


Welcome back, SQM--or may I call you SQ for short? It must feel good to be home.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Sorry, but that is like raising actions from during the Vietnam conflict as proof of what could, is, or should happen today. 
It is similar to people bringing up folks accusing others of spitting on returning military.

Maybe we should focus on fixing our wrongs.



SQM said:


> Friend of mine was in the Israeli army in '68 and her group built houses in the Palestinian areas in to help them rebuild. Of course the Arabs tore them down. Jews living in Arab countries for a millennia were expelled from their homes at the same time. Complain about the US for genocide and 2 hundred years of land grabbing wars. Clarity starts at home.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> He may have been correct, but he was a little nuts. I met him once or twice when I was in high school and going to Bnei Akiva. He also married a former schoolmate of mine whose mother was my mother's friend and who was a distant cousin of my husband's. And we all thought he was a little nuts. But only a little.


We met him, too. Very intense and passionate in his concern for Israel. Considering what he was dealing with, he had reason to be a bit off the deep end. But he seemed to understand the situation.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

If you folks want to take a break from serious and haven't clicked in on some of today's topics, check out

http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-268023-1.html#5582252

which I thought was a howler.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> And kudos to you for pointing all of this out.
> 
> But who is your "own Christian fundamentalist" with his anti-Jewish crap?


My niece's husband. They are both born again.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Welcome back, SQM--or may I call you SQ for short? It must feel good to be home.


You can call me S to make it even shorter. Feels better to be back. But now I need a vacation.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Cute and yes! I am more than ready for a break and I spent the afternoon at the beach.



MarilynKnits said:


> If you folks want to take a break from serious and haven't clicked in on some of today's topics, check out
> 
> http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-268023-1.html#5582252
> 
> which I thought was a howler.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

I bet you do. While I am sure that it was some kind of nice to do some catching up in person and some comforting. There is no way it could have been relaxing. I hope that you get to do something fun soon.



SQM said:


> You can call me S to make it even shorter. Feels better to be back. But now I need a vacation.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

jellen said:


> I bet you do. While I am sure that it was some kind of nice to do some catching up in person and some comforting. There is no way it could have been relaxing. I hope that you get to do something fun soon.


Thanks Ol' Friend. I have some nice things to look forward to but I am decompressing now.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

MarilynKnits said:


> In the late 1940's the Palestinians were supposed to settle in Jordan in land dedicated to them as their homeland. They rejected that. What they wanted was to usurp the land set aside for the Jews to settle, namely Israel. The goal attributed to the Palestinians is to kill off the Jews "finish what Hitler started" and inhabit Israel, probably renaming it Palestine. Even if I were not Jewish I would find the situation abhorrent.


That is the story that my mother related to me as a child, She seemed to be very aware of the news, politics, and history for the whole time that I knew enough to pay attention to what she was handing down. 
I would say that we had those discussions around the time of the war. It has always stuck with me that she felt part of the reason that Israel deserved the "spoils of war" was because the Jews had actually been the only people to take hold of that region and force it to become productive.

As my view of imperialism has evolved that view of "doing something" has altered quite a bit. Progress is not always what it is cracked up to be. Still, I get what was meant and the development that was necessary to provide a home.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks.



MarilynKnits said:


> In the late 1940's the Palestinians were supposed to settle in Jordan in land dedicated to them as their homeland. They rejected that. What they wanted was to usurp the land set aside for the Jews to settle, namely Israel. The goal attributed to the Palestinians is to kill off the Jews "finish what Hitler started" and inhabit Israel, probably renaming it Palestine. Even if I were not Jewish I would find the situation abhorrent.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

It isn't an intellectual exercise for many Jews, is it about home and brothers and sisters living under threat. 
I don't think that I know a single Jew who doesn't have family in Israel. 
Half of my surviving family live in northern New England, I would be ready to go to war if someone threatened that region.



peacegoddess said:


> I recommend for information on the issue of boycott etc.
> 
> The interfaith Network of Spiritual Progressives
> Tikkun magazine and Rabbi Michael Lerner
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks. I must have been falling for the 'poor little me' PR.



Poor Purl said:


> The Palestinians are "meant" to stop threatening to destroy Israel and perhaps become trading partners, as the Jordanians have done. The're meant to start acting civilized and honestly negotiate for peace, rather than pretending that they are the only injured party while planting bombs on buses.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> My niece's husband. They are both born again.


And he doesn't think you should remain Jewish and move to Israel to hasten the Rapture?

BTW, how many times can someone be born again?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> It isn't an intellectual exercise for many Jews, is it about home and brothers and sisters living under threat.
> I don't think that I know a single Jew who doesn't have family in Israel.
> Half of my surviving family live in northern New England, I would be ready to go to war if someone threatened that region.


Thank you for seeing that part of it. My niece and nephew live there, with their three children and now one grandchild. Then there are a couple of older people in my husband's family. You're right; most American Jews have family living in Israel. It's hard for us to see it from the POV of people who want to destroy it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Thanks. I must have been falling for the 'poor little me' PR.


So many people have. All the academics who have voted to boycott Israeli scholars. All the social workers who see mainly Muslim families.

A lot of people fell for the lie that Israel is practicing genocide. The only genocidal intention I've heard of in that part of the world is the intention to put an end to Israel. I've had to argue this with even Jewish social workers, who are so empathic to their clients that they don't even bother to look at both sides of the situation.

I'm tired of having to fight for legitimacy, especially since nobody else has to.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> And he doesn't think you should remain Jewish and move to Israel to hasten the Rapture?
> 
> BTW, how many times can someone be born again?


Well, looking at some of the righties on here, I would say they are reborn daily!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Well, looking at some of the righties on here, I would say they are reborn daily!


But with the same old ideas.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't know Patty. With most of them I just see the same old same old every day. Nothing reborn. Am I missing something?



BrattyPatty said:


> Well, looking at some of the righties on here, I would say they are reborn daily!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Great minds Purl & me.



Poor Purl said:


> But with the same old ideas.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> I don't know Patty. With most of them I just see the same old same old every day. Nothing reborn. Am I missing something?


From a Jewish perspective, I cannot get a handle on the concept of "reborn".

Most Jews of my generation and general background (third or 4th generation American born of European descent) came from a traditional background where people observed the Orthodox customs, although many of us did not observe all the laws or observe them strictly. We still identify as Jews whether we practice the religious rituals or not. If a person changes affiliation from Orthodox to Conservative or Reform, it is not considered being "reborn", nor is it if someone who is less observant decides to join a strictly observant congregation, become Kosher, become Sabbath observant with all the restrictions adhered to. You end up with a different personal life style and probably a different set of friends. Whichever way you move between strictly observant and totally non observant, you will have some people from your former affiliation who support you and some who think you have gone berserk (to put it in PC terminology).

Is becoming a "reborn" Christian the equivalent of a less observant Jew becoming strictly Orthodox? And is proselytizing part of the "reborn" package of behaviors?


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Marilynknits queries:

Is becoming a "reborn" Christian the equivalent of a less observant Jew becoming strictly Orthodox? And is proselytizing part of the "reborn" package of behaviors?
**********************************************
In many ways being born again resembles a move on the continuum of an expression of faith, in others it seems more of a repudiation of the middle of the road Christian tradition. 

In most moderate churches a young person does a ritual confirmation of faith at approximately thirteen, assuming that they have reached the age of reason. 
Those who determine that they have determined a greater, deeper faith and understanding seemingly need to undergo another baptism and confirmation all rolled up into one. 
I guess Christ, who listens to and responds to all of those prayers, is not able to determine a different level of belief. Maybe the folks who decide to be born again don't understand God's love. Could be either or neither.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

jellen said:


> Marilynknits queries:
> 
> Is becoming a "reborn" Christian the equivalent of a less observant Jew becoming strictly Orthodox? And is proselytizing part of the "reborn" package of behaviors?
> **********************************************
> ...


Thanks. Gives me some more thought on the issue that hadn't occurred to me. Sounds maybe as if the process resolves an identity crisis for the individual.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Thanks. Gives me some more thought on the issue that hadn't occurred to me. Sounds maybe as if the process resolves an identity crisis for the individual.


From my point of view, there is no reason for any Christian who has been baptized to have to be "born again." Maybe it's for people for haven't been decent Christians to repent and dedicate themselves to goodness. In my opinion many of the vocal ones who peddle hatred and profess to be born again Christians need another rebirth.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

MarilynKnits said:


> Thanks. Gives me some more thought on the issue that hadn't occurred to me. Sounds maybe as if the process resolves an identity crisis for the individual.


It also enables that person to live life forever after believing that they are "saved", will be heading to that great and elusive mansion in the sky in order to sit at the right hand despite any actions they take to the detriment of mankind. 
Greed doesn't matter, lack of empathy doesn't matter, all of the glorious positive tasks one may set for oneself don't matter. The only necessary step is declaring that Jesus is the savior.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

I am guessing that they don't believe that they were aware of the importance of the move as a teen. I suppose it is possible that the churches they attended didn't take confirmation seriously.



alcameron said:


> From my point of view, there is no reason for any Christian who has been baptized to have to be "born again." Maybe it's for people for haven't been decent Christians to repent and dedicate themselves to goodness. In my opinion many of the vocal ones who peddle hatred and profess to be born again Christians need another rebirth.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

I am guessing that they don't believe that they were aware of the importance of the move as a teen. I suppose it is possible that the churches they attended didn't take confirmation seriously.



alcameron said:
 

> From my point of view, there is no reason for any Christian who has been baptized to have to be "born again." Maybe it's for people for haven't been decent Christians to repent and dedicate themselves to goodness. In my opinion many of the vocal ones who peddle hatred and profess to be born again Christians need another rebirth.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

jellen said:


> It also enables that person to live life forever after believing that they are "saved", will be heading to that great and elusive mansion in the sky in order to sit at the right hand despite any actions they take to the detriment of mankind.
> Greed doesn't matter, lack of empathy doesn't matter, all of the glorious positive tasks one may set for oneself don't matter. The only necessary step is declaring that Jesus is the savior.


You can be describing my niece's husband - the bastard.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I need a reborn education too. Catholics don't do such things. When a Catholic is baptized, they are cleansed of original sin and they are members of the Church. Other sacraments exist (Communion, Confession,Confirmation etc,) but you must be baptized first.



MarilynKnits said:


> From a Jewish perspective, I cannot get a handle on the concept of "reborn".
> 
> Most Jews of my generation and general background (third or 4th generation American born of European descent) came from a traditional background where people observed the Orthodox customs, although many of us did not observe all the laws or observe them strictly. We still identify as Jews whether we practice the religious rituals or not. If a person changes affiliation from Orthodox to Conservative or Reform, it is not considered being "reborn", nor is it if someone who is less observant decides to join a strictly observant congregation, become Kosher, become Sabbath observant with all the restrictions adhered to. You end up with a different personal life style and probably a different set of friends. Whichever way you move between strictly observant and totally non observant, you will have some people from your former affiliation who support you and some who think you have gone berserk (to put it in PC terminology).
> 
> Is becoming a "reborn" Christian the equivalent of a less observant Jew becoming strictly Orthodox? And is proselytizing part of the "reborn" package of behaviors?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

They are so gross over on D&D. Turns my stomach to watch the little ants trying to crawl all over the president.
http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-264144-304.html


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> They are so gross over on D&D. Turns my stomach to watch the little ants trying to crawl all over the president.
> http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-264144-304.html


They finally got to me today so I unwatched them. Totally unchristian posts.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> They are so gross over on D&D. Turns my stomach to watch the little ants trying to crawl all over the president.
> http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-264144-304.html


Are you still wasting time visiting the gulag? I was concerned about developing diabetes so I unwatched a while ago.

I had checked out the site, made what I thought were polite and productive comments, and was told (in such amazingly ladylike and mannerly comments) by the bouncers to leave. Not worth it. Some of the regulars there also visit WOW and LOLL and mostly join in companionable dialog. A couple appear to come only to needle, but we soon learn whom to respect and whom to ignore.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

damemary said:


> Great minds Purl & me.


Formed in the same shell, no doubt!!


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

jellen said:


> It also enables that person to live life forever after believing that they are "saved", will be heading to that great and elusive mansion in the sky in order to sit at the right hand despite any actions they take to the detriment of mankind.
> Greed doesn't matter, lack of empathy doesn't matter, all of the glorious positive tasks one may set for oneself don't matter. The only necessary step is declaring that Jesus is the savior.


Indeed. Pompous jackasses.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Are you still wasting time visiting the gulag? I was concerned about developing diabetes so I unwatched a while ago.
> 
> I had checked out the site, made what I thought were polite and productive comments, and was told (in such amazingly ladylike and mannerly comments) by the bouncers to leave. Not worth it. Some of the regulars there also visit WOW and LOLL and mostly join in companionable dialog. A couple appear to come only to needle, but we soon learn whom to respect and whom to ignore.


I don't spend time there without a purpose; this time I wanted to see what SQM meant about racism. I never post there (unless it's a bombing raid, like the questionnaire answers). Are there really bouncers? Such friendly people.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Indeed. Pompous jackasses.


It seems to me such a cheap kind of belief. You need do nothing, and you always "know" you've been forgiven for past sins. How you know, other than that someone has told you, is never explained. How that person knows, well, this chain must go all the way back at least to St. Paul.

What kind of world would we have if _all_ religious people behaved as badly as they'd like, knowing that if they believed in whatever name the god has, they're all forgiven?


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> They are so gross over on D&D. Turns my stomach to watch the little ants trying to crawl all over the president.
> http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-264144-304.html


I used your link to check them out and didn't even get past the first page and got back out. So unchristian they are over there, makes me a little sick to read it.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It seems to me such a cheap kind of belief. You need do nothing, and you always "know" you've been forgiven for past sins. How you know, other than that someone has told you, is never explained. How that person knows, well, this chain must go all the way back at least to St. Paul.
> 
> What kind of world would we have if _all_ religious people behaved as badly as they'd like, knowing that if they believed in whatever name the god has, they're all forgiven?


Yes, be and act as nasty as you want and then you will be forgiven and all is good.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> I used your link to check them out and didn't even get past the first page and got back out. So unchristian they are over there, makes me a little sick to read it.


Yet they insist they're _good_ Christians.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Are you still wasting time visiting the gulag? I was concerned about developing diabetes so I unwatched a while ago.
> 
> I had checked out the site, made what I thought were polite and productive comments, and was told (in such amazingly ladylike and mannerly comments) by the bouncers to leave. Not worth it. Some of the regulars there also visit WOW and LOLL and mostly join in companionable dialog. A couple appear to come only to needle, but we soon learn whom to respect and whom to ignore.


How can and did they ask you to leave? They never said anything directly to me, mostly just ignore me. Now I must return and see who was so very unsoutherly rude to My Marilyn-ala.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

NJG said:


> Yes, be and act as nasty as you want and then you will be forgiven and all is good.


So now I understand how my niece's husband operates. May he be planted like an onion with his feet sticking up and his head in the ground.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

SQM said:


> So now I understand how my niece's husband operates. May he be planted like an onion with his feet sticking up and his head in the ground.


With Zoo Doo copiously applied right before a rainstorm.

:twisted:


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> How can and did they ask you to leave? They never said anything directly to me, mostly just ignore me. Now I must return and see who was so very unsoutherly rude to My Marilyn-ala.


I am sure it was not me singled out, but it was a diatribe meant for us as the "lefties who say such nasty things". There were two or three of the queen's court who were acting as bouncers. It is so boring there anyway that I unwatched pretty soon after I started reading the postings.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Are you still wasting time visiting the gulag? I was concerned about developing diabetes so I unwatched a while ago.
> 
> I had checked out the site, made what I thought were polite and productive comments, and was told (in such amazingly ladylike and mannerly comments) by the bouncers to leave. Not worth it. Some of the regulars there also visit WOW and LOLL and mostly join in companionable dialog. A couple appear to come only to needle, but we soon learn whom to respect and whom to ignore.


Who comes to Neutral Bridges besides our friend Bonnie?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Who comes to Neutral Bridges besides our friend Bonnie?


For a while Thumper, with those adorable twin grandchildren, came, then suddenly disappeared. I was getting to like her. She had a lot to say about colonoscopy prep.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

V0XLisa said:


> Purls of wisdom no doubt!


But not - definitely not - purls before swine?


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

V0XLisa said:


> Purls of wisdom no doubt!


And those gems are given to add to your necklace of knowledge!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> For a while Thumper, with those adorable twin grandchildren, came, then suddenly disappeared. I was getting to like her. She had a lot to say about colonoscopy prep.


I wonder what happened to Thumper? Maybe she's too busy with the grandchildren or on vacation. Or maybe she got sick of Neutral Bridges and us.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I check it now & then.



alcameron said:


> Who comes to Neutral Bridges besides our friend Bonnie?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> But not - definitely not - purls before swine?


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

damemary said:


> I check it now & then.


I know. I meant from the "other side."


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> I wonder what happened to Thumper? Maybe she's too busy with the grandchildren or on vacation. Or maybe she got sick of Neutral Bridges and us.


I have been wondering about Thumper also. Hopefully she is away. I will try to find out.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> For a while Thumper, with those adorable twin grandchildren, came, then suddenly disappeared. I was getting to like her. She had a lot to say about colonoscopy prep.


And hasn't Nebraska made contributions there? She is a nice woman as long as we don't argue about politics or religion. She is a very good DIL.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> And hasn't Nebraska made contributions there? She is a nice woman as long as we don't argue about politics or religion. She is a very good DIL.


What else is there to argue about?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> And hasn't Nebraska made contributions there? She is a nice woman as long as we don't argue about politics or religion. She is a very good DIL.


She's nice even if we do argue about those things, but she seems to have picked up the RW paranoia lock, stock, etc. And a *very* good DIL as well as MIL. She really is what one would see as a good Christian. But I think the question was which D&D people were on Neutral Bridges, and she's not on D&D. KPG didn't like her views on Christianity.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> What else is there to argue about?


Isn't arguing on NB a no-no? Of course, it would be a lot more interesting with some disagreement once in a while, but so uncool.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Thumper seems to be okay and is posting on the knitting threads.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Isn't arguing on NB a no-no? Of course, it would be a lot more interesting with some disagreement once in a while, but so uncool.


We need a neutral place otherwise it will turn into another war zone. Make it interesting.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> We need a neutral place otherwise it will turn into another war zone. Make it interesting.


It's your idea. Make it interesting yourself.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> She's nice even if we do argue about those things, but she seems to have picked up the RW paranoia lock, stock, etc. And a *very* good DIL as well as MIL. She really is what one would see as a good Christian. But I think the question was which D&D people were on Neutral Bridges, and she's not on D&D. KPG didn't like her views on Christianity.


Good morning, everyone. I'm drinking coffee and eating my Greek yogurt and blueberries to rid myself of my morning headache. It sounds like a hangover, but I guarantee you that I don't have personal habits like that. I took my abortive pill (no, I'm not preggers, either) and am coming out of the fog. June mornings in the Bay Area often begin with fog, and as it clears, so does my head. I do have some tasks ahead that must be done today, so I'm glad I'm coming around.
I see our activist Supreme Court made another ruling regarding the buffer zone around women's clinics.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> It's your idea. Make it interesting yourself.


But I am not complaining and I am okay with it.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Good morning, everyone. I'm drinking coffee and eating my Greek yogurt and blueberries to rid myself of my morning headache. It sounds like a hangover, but I guarantee you that I don't have personal habits like that. I took my abortive pill (no, I'm not preggers, either) and am coming out of the fog. June mornings in the Bay Area often begin with fog, and as it clears, so does my head. I do have some tasks ahead that must be done today, so I'm glad I'm coming around.
> I see our activist Supreme Court made another ruling regarding the buffer zone around women's clinics.


What happened with the SC and Hobby Lobby?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> But I am not complaining and I am okay with it.


I could post another picture of my kitchen tile. I guess that was interesting--along with my zucchini latkes.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> I could post another picture of my kitchen tile. I guess that was interesting--along with my zucchini latkes.


they actually looked yummy.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> they actually looked yummy.


Don't know if they ruled on Hobby Lobby. I'm still too foggy. Hobby Lobby just opened a store in the Bay Area, but I intend to stay away.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> She's nice even if we do argue about those things, but she seems to have picked up the RW paranoia lock, stock, etc. And a *very* good DIL as well as MIL. She really is what one would see as a good Christian. But I think the question was which D&D people were on Neutral Bridges, and she's not on D&D. KPG didn't like her views on Christianity.


KPG doesn't like anyone unless (s)he's humping KPG's leg.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

maysmom said:


> KPG doesn't like anyone unless (s)he's humping KPG's leg.


Tsk tsk and 
Good Morning, MM


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> KPG doesn't like anyone unless (s)he's humping KPG's leg.


Even that's not enough. S/he has to be on the right side politically, and usually Christian (though KPG excuses Solow for not being Christian because Solow is a master humper).


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I could post another picture of my kitchen tile. I guess that was interesting--along with my zucchini latkes.


Your tile would make a beautiful quilt or afghan. Give us more; I wouldn't mind. Are your bathroom tiles also interesting? Floor tiles?


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Tsk tsk and
> Good Morning, MM


It is unfortunate, but I do speak the truth.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> But I am not complaining and I am okay with it.


I'm not complaining, either. Just *ex*plaining.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

AnnaMoss said:


> Oh, but one of their favorite tools is martyrdom. God forgives them because they have a "personal relationship" with Christ, while here on earth, if anyone DARES to mention one of their sins or hypocricies ---then they're in full blown martyr statis!
> 
> Are they aware that the house GOP will now be 100% white Christian?
> 
> One hundred percent. But oh, they are the TRUE disenfranchised minority!!!!


I have no doubt they're salivating at the thought of the GOP 100%. But that won't stop them from complaining if anyone else tries to get something done.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Good morning, everyone. I'm drinking coffee and eating my Greek yogurt and blueberries to rid myself of my morning headache. It sounds like a hangover, but I guarantee you that I don't have personal habits like that. I took my abortive pill (no, I'm not preggers, either) and am coming out of the fog. June mornings in the Bay Area often begin with fog, and as it clears, so does my head. I do have some tasks ahead that must be done today, so I'm glad I'm coming around.
> I see our activist Supreme Court made another ruling regarding the buffer zone around women's clinics.


Yes, bless their hearts. They get to keep the buffer zone around them and their place of work, but a woman going for healthcare doesn't get that freedom. What were they thinking and especially Sotomayor and Ginsburg.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Don't know if they ruled on Hobby Lobby. I'm still too foggy. Hobby Lobby just opened a store in the Bay Area, but I intend to stay away.


They are opening a Hobby Lobby in Cedar Rapids too, but I also will stay away. Our Michaels and Joanns are all in the same area so I have other choices besides mail order.
I don't think they have ruled on Hobby Lobby yet, but should be this week. 
One of the tea party guys charged with the nursing home incident over Thad Cochran's wife has died. They think he committed suicide and did leave a suicide note.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

What Hillary Clinton said about Dick Cheney and his comments about President Obama and Iraq. 

"Just think about that logic," she told Shafer. "There he is, basically saying, 'Barack Obama should have cleaned up the mess that I made.' "


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> What Hillary Clinton said about Dick Cheney and his comments about President Obama and Iraq.
> 
> "Just think about that logic," she told Shafer. "There he is, basically saying, 'Barack Obama should have cleaned up the mess that I made.' "


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

I watched Bill Maher tonight and on his flip a district they added Scott DesJarlais, republican from Tennessee. He ran as a family values, pro life candidate. 
He is a Dr and had numerous affairs while practicing medicine, and tried to talk one woman into having an abortion. If you want to read anything about it, here is a link. My question is how does someone like this get elected? I think the court records of his divorce were to be released in 2012 on election night, but the scandal was out before that and in the news. What does this say about republican voters? To me it says they vote for the party and could care less about the person or the people of the 4th district in Tennessee. They are wealthy people and no matter what happens to the district or the state, they will be ok in their little world. They must have to hold their nose when they cast that vote.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/tennessee-4th-congressional-district/


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

OMG, there is another crazy one. Oklahoma republican primary looser--5% of the vote--says the winner, incumbent Rep. Frank D. Lucas is dead. This is from the crazy ones web site. I think some of these people have escaped. Thank God this one lost.

From his website: The election for U.S. House for Oklahomas 3rd District will be contested by the Candidate, Timothy Ray Murray. I will be stating that his votes are (sic) switched with Rep. Lucas votes, because it is widely known Rep. Frank D. Lucas is no longer alive and has been displayed (sic) by a look alike (sic). Rep. Lucas look alike was depicted as sentenced on a white stage in southern Ukraine on or about Jan. 11, 2011.

So how did a dead guy allegedly hold office and successfully face off a primary election? Mr. Murray claims that Rep. Lucas has been replaced with a body double or robot.

http://www.breitbartunmasked.com/2014/06/27/oklahoma-primary-loser-plans-to-contest-results-claims-opponent-long-dead/


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Matt Lauer asks General Motors CEO whether she can still be a good mom.

Have you ever heard him ask a man if he could be a CEO and also be a good father?


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

NJG said:


> Matt Lauer asks General Motors CEO whether she can still be a good mom.
> 
> Have you ever heard him ask a man if he could be a CEO and also be a good father?


Anyone ever ask Matt if he can be a father and still be a good news anchor?


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Anyone ever ask Matt if he can be a father and still be a good news anchor?


Has he been a good news anchor? 
:twisted: :twisted:


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Has he been a good news anchor?
> :twisted: :twisted:


I thought he was, but he just proved me wrong. He sucks.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Has he been a good news anchor?
> :twisted: :twisted:


Aha! That is the question! I haven't watched his program in so many years I can't remember since when, so I wouldn't know.

There is so much junk on the news that I just read the newspaper for real news, although there isn't that much in the paper either. I go on line to the NY Times, the Washington Post, the Chicago Trib and my local Patch to scan for news.

Get some news on CNN and local news on FIOS 1, but the major networks just report mayhem in the New York metro area, traffic problems, and stuff that is news magazine fluff. And about half the time is devoted to ads. Ads nauseum?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> I check it now & then.


Thumper used to - WCK does once in awhile, Mombat did once. It was WCK's idea but they aren't willing to come and just have a conversation. their loss. Oh and Yarnie was talking about it before it started . KPG managed to do what she wanted when she brought up Obamacare.

Did you see the photo there of the President eating in a school cafeteria and pointing to what he wanted.(On D and P P) a few days ago. YOu should read the things they said - absolutely unbelievable. He was standing in line and was pointing out what he wanted. -- if they haven't got something to say against him in cases like this they say things that are so far out it is unbelievable. If you look at it read the remarks for the next few pages. I felt sick when I did. Haven't gone back. They are 
not in the real world. I don't know, but those aren't the kind of Christians I know even the most narrow minded.

I have to admit I worry for your country and the things that are happening.

I don't know how the President and Mrs Obama keep their courage up. The hate is so overwhelming. It isn't something they can fight as it is so stretched from the truth that how do you fight that type of hate and ignorance?


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Thumper used to - WCK does once in awhile, Mombat did once. It was WCK's idea but they aren't willing to come and just have a conversation. their loss. Oh and Yarnie was talking about it before it started . KPG managed to do what she wanted when she brought up Obamacare.
> 
> Did you see the photo there of the President eating in a school cafeteria and pointing to what he wanted.(On D and P P) a few days ago. YOu should read the things they said - absolutely unbelievable. He was standing in line and was pointing out what he wanted. -- if they haven't got something to say against him in cases like this they say things that are so far out it is unbelievable. If you look at it read the remarks for the next few pages. I felt sick when I did. Haven't gone back. They are
> not in the real world. I don't know, but those aren't the kind of Christians I know even the most narrow minded.
> ...


Yes it amazes me how cool and calm he remains. They must feel all the hate, but maybe they are use to it, although I don't know how you get use to that kind of thing.

No, Christians they are not, we know that, as they prove it every time they post.

I just started a new topic, "Some advice from millionaire Nick Hanauer." The inequality going on in the US is also happening in Australia. I wasn't aware of that.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Thumper used to - WCK does once in awhile, Mombat did once. It was WCK's idea but they aren't willing to come and just have a conversation. their loss. Oh and Yarnie was talking about it before it started . KPG managed to do what she wanted when she brought up Obamacare.
> 
> Did you see the photo there of the President eating in a school cafeteria and pointing to what he wanted.(On D and P P) a few days ago. YOu should read the things they said - absolutely unbelievable. He was standing in line and was pointing out what he wanted. -- if they haven't got something to say against him in cases like this they say things that are so far out it is unbelievable. If you look at it read the remarks for the next few pages. I felt sick when I did. Haven't gone back. They are
> not in the real world. I don't know, but those aren't the kind of Christians I know even the most narrow minded.
> ...


I saw those messages, and you have it right. It's incredible to me that anyone could hate the president so much that they would go to those lengths: "drooling on the food," other things, they're disgusting. But they think they're right, they know they're not racist, and in any case they're forgiven for their sins because they believe.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Thumper used to - WCK does once in awhile, Mombat did once. It was WCK's idea but they aren't willing to come and just have a conversation. their loss. Oh and Yarnie was talking about it before it started . KPG managed to do what she wanted when she brought up Obamacare.
> 
> Did you see the photo there of the President eating in a school cafeteria and pointing to what he wanted.(On D and P P) a few days ago. YOu should read the things they said - absolutely unbelievable. He was standing in line and was pointing out what he wanted. -- if they haven't got something to say against him in cases like this they say things that are so far out it is unbelievable. If you look at it read the remarks for the next few pages. I felt sick when I did. Haven't gone back. They are
> not in the real world. I don't know, but those aren't the kind of Christians I know even the most narrow minded.
> ...


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I saw those messages, and you have it right. It's incredible to me that anyone could hate the president so much that they would go to those lengths: "drooling on the food," other things, they're disgusting. But they think they're right, they know they're not racist, and in any case they're forgiven for their sins because they believe.


And they would never consider that Jesus might be weeping over their hatred.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Aha! That is the question! I haven't watched his program in so many years I can't remember since when, so I wouldn't know.
> 
> There is so much junk on the news that I just read the newspaper for real news, although there isn't that much in the paper either. I go on line to the NY Times, the Washington Post, the Chicago Trib and my local Patch to scan for news.
> 
> Get some news on CNN and local news on FIOS 1, but the major networks just report mayhem in the New York metro area, traffic problems, and stuff that is news magazine fluff. And about half the time is devoted to ads. Ads nauseum?


I check out Al Jazeera in English at times. So many people automatically assume that AJ is rabid Muslim fundy but it isn't.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> - - - - - - I don't know how the President and Mrs Obama keep their courage up. The hate is so overwhelming. It isn't something they can fight as it is so stretched from the truth that how do you fight that type of hate and ignorance?


They continue to fight the good fight by living their lives with grace and dignity, and by doing what they believe is the right and best thing for the country. They are raising their daughters to be as strong and dignified as themselves.

Any President succeeding one from the opposing party will have a great deal of scrutiny, opposition, and criticism under the best of circumstances. This President, being the first of an ethnic group that has suffered the greatest of prejudices has additional criticism from bigots as well as from the far right.

The far right is beyond conservative. They are almost to the point of anarchy. We tend to stereotype anarchists as wild eyed men with unruly hair and brandishing bombs. The anarchists we need to beware are the one with razor cut hair, Armani suits, John Lobb shoes, and huge portfolios. The 1% are the ones undermining the stability of our countries.

It is not just in the USA that the divide between the haves and have nots is large and growing, it is a world wide issue. Countries such as the USA and Canada may feel it more because for a couple of generations we had a significant portion of the people being "have enoughs", and losing that status is harder for many than never having had much in the first place.

We have a President who seems to recognize some of the basic issues and the "have lots and lots" folks don't want the status quo to change.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

maysmom said:


> I check out Al Jazeera in English at times. So many people automatically assume that AJ is rabid Muslim fundy but it isn't.


They also have a lot of historical and factual files posted on their network. I did not watch them for some time because I also assumed that they were biased. Today I watched a programme on Australia's post war migration programme. Looking back and remembering our post war migration programme I can see that the points raised are indeed correct and they have clarified many things for me. This was in relation to encouraging displaced people from the Baltic States to migrate to Australia, but the immigration policy was geared towards fair haired, blue eyed, healthy looking individuals and buxom women. The immigration policy at the time stated that these ideals were to be sought in selecting the individuals chosen and accepted as part of the migrant quota. It also clarified why Cocky Caldwell was so disliked in the 1950s. I had not realised he was such a racial bigot. They showed clips of Cocky and he was speaking the words, it was not someone just reading an article and stating that Cocky said xxxxx but the actual footage of Cocky saying those words.


----------



## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Thumper used to - WCK does once in awhile, Mombat did once. It was WCK's idea but they aren't willing to come and just have a conversation. their loss. Oh and Yarnie was talking about it before it started . KPG managed to do what she wanted when she brought up Obamacare.
> 
> Did you see the photo there of the President eating in a school cafeteria and pointing to what he wanted.(On D and P P) a few days ago. YOu should read the things they said - absolutely unbelievable. He was standing in line and was pointing out what he wanted. -- if they haven't got something to say against him in cases like this they say things that are so far out it is unbelievable. If you look at it read the remarks for the next few pages. I felt sick when I did. Haven't gone back. They are
> not in the real world. I don't know, but those aren't the kind of Christians I know even the most narrow minded.
> ...


***********************************
The picture was taken at a Chipolte Restaurant...not a school cafe. Also he was not just pointing, he was pointing with him arm over a food guard / sneeze guard. Normal people don't do that. If my post makes you sick ...well don't read them, but then you couldn't put your own spin on it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> And they would never consider that Jesus might be weeping over their hatred.


Interesting. It seems as though in their minds, Jesus died to justify their sins, not to end them.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> I check out Al Jazeera in English at times. So many people automatically assume that AJ is rabid Muslim fundy but it isn't.


From what I've seen, it's one of the few unbiased news sources around.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

galinipper said:


> ***********************************
> The picture was taken at a Chipolte Restaurant...not a school cafe. Also he was not just pointing, he was pointing with him arm over a food guard / sneeze guard. Normal people don't do that. If my post makes you sick ...well don't read them, but then you couldn't put your own spin on it.


His arm over a food guard, hmm. Dangerous. He wasn't touching the food, was he? Or drooling on it, as one of you suggested? How do you know the server wasn't asking him to be clearer pointing it out; when I'm pointing at items through a glass, I usually have to go through several tries before the salesperson figures out what I want.

Hate his foreign policy. Hate his domestic policy. Hate the speeches he makes. But when you go so far as to make a big deal about his pointing at cafeteria food, you surely realize there's more to your dislike than the way he does his job.


----------



## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> His arm over a food guard, hmm. Dangerous. He wasn't touching the food, was he? Or drooling on it, as one of you suggested? How do you know the server wasn't asking him to be clearer pointing it out; when I'm pointing at items through a glass, I usually have to go through several tries before the salesperson figures out what I want.
> 
> Hate his foreign policy. Hate his domestic policy. Hate the speeches he makes. But when you go so far as to make a big deal about his pointing at cafeteria food, you surely realize there's more to your dislike than the way he does his job.


********************
Head ,arm and hand.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> His arm over a food guard, hmm. Dangerous. He wasn't touching the food, was he? Or drooling on it, as one of you suggested? How do you know the server wasn't asking him to be clearer pointing it out; when I'm pointing at items through a glass, I usually have to go through several tries before the salesperson figures out what I want.
> 
> Hate his foreign policy. Hate his domestic policy. Hate the speeches he makes. But when you go so far as to make a big deal about his pointing at cafeteria food, you surely realize there's more to your dislike than the way he does his job.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:

So it wasn't a school cafeteria -- I know that nothing I can say will 
touch you but things you say do touch me - they sadden me.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

galinipper said:


> ********************
> Head ,arm and hand.


SO??"?

Have you never pointed at food - in a restaurant , which is behind glass. Are you that perfect ? yet one of you says he was drooling, and one said his germs would affect those who ate the food? Not sure of the words but it was horrible. .Really?

Sneeze guard?? is that your name for it? It was low enough to keep children away from the food - I served in a place like that and the glass was to keep children away from it. He really is a criminal to point at food. And to breath while he is doing it? He might poison some Far right Person who breathes the same air.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

galinipper said:


> ********************
> Head ,arm and hand.


Big ,f'ing and deal.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Big ,f'ing and deal.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

galinipper said:


> ********************
> Head ,arm and hand.





galinipper said:


> http://www.mahaivi.info/danellandia/images/posters1/ray%20of%20sunshine.jpg
> 
> I am sending you a little ray of sunshine, I think you need something bright and cheerful in your dull and dark life.


----------



## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> SO??"?
> 
> Have you never pointed at food - in a restaurant , which is behind glass. Are you that perfect ? yet one of you says he was drooling, and one said his germs would affect those who ate the food? Not sure of the words but it was horrible. .Really? Would Jesus say that? Is that what he taught?
> 
> ...


I didn't name it a sneeze guard, the manufacture did.
I have not stated my religion on any post or thread. Has never happened. Yes I have pointed at food, on my side.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

oops


----------



## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> galinipper said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.mahaivi.info/danellandia/images/posters1/ray%20of%20sunshine.jpg
> ...


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

changed my mind. Sorry.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> galinipper said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.mahaivi.info/danellandia/images/posters1/ray%20of%20sunshine.jpg
> ...


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

The right jumps on everything the president does, no matter what it is, he is wrong. Just like the photo of him with his feet on the desk. They were outraged, what a terrible disrespectful thing to do. But wouldn't you know there was a picture of Bush with his feet on the desk too. Didn't hear them say anything about that. They are such hypocrites. I wonder if they ever pause for just a moment and think, "Oh, maybe I shouldn't have said that." Very doubtful. I would like to be at the pearly gates and see if they are actually let in. Again, very doubtful.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Big ,f'ing and deal.


Remember, someone from D & P says he'd prbably transmit HIV. Despicable lot, the whole bunch.
:evil: :evil: :evil:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Remember, someone from D & P says he'd prbably transmit HIV. Despicable lot, the whole bunch.
> :evil: :evil: :evil:


Could it be that D&P really stands for "deceit and pointlessness"? Though I have no idea what the FF stands for, even if I have several guesses.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Could it be that D&P really stands for "deceit and pointlessness"? Though I have no idea what the FF stands for, even if I have several guesses.


The FF really does stand for fast forward, which doesn't describe what they really are.
Has anyone mentioned the fact that the president is a tall person that would have had to practically kneel to point through the glass?
What a bunch of nasty people, always criticizing for nothing except pure hatred of the man.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> The FF really does stand for fast forward, which doesn't describe what they really are.
> Has anyone mentioned the fact that the president is a tall person that would have had to practically kneel to point through the glass?
> What a bunch of nasty people, always criticizing for nothing except pure hatred of the man.


FF=Friends Forever


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> The FF really does stand for fast forward, which doesn't describe what they really are.
> Has anyone mentioned the fact that the president is a tall person that would have had to practically kneel to point through the glass?
> What a bunch of nasty people, always criticizing for nothing except pure hatred of the man.


At least there's something pure about them.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> The FF really does stand for fast forward, which doesn't describe what they really are.
> Has anyone mentioned the fact that the president is a tall person that would have had to practically kneel to point through the glass?
> What a bunch of nasty people, always criticizing for nothing except pure hatred of the man.


I was thinking of that too. Would a person rather bend over and stick your rear out at people or look over the top. I am with the president. I think the ladies on the right, [and I use that term loosely] have too much time on their hands. They have too much time to hate.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think Matt Lauer is a dolt. Ignorant question.

A gripe of mine. The people being interviewed on serious questions....and the lack of intelligent questions from the journalists. Blah, blah, blah. I'd laugh if it weren't so serious.



NJG said:


> Matt Lauer asks General Motors CEO whether she can still be a good mom.
> 
> Have you ever heard him ask a man if he could be a CEO and also be a good father?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Anyone ever ask Matt if he can be a father and still be a good news anchor?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Good thought Marilyn.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

maysmom said:


> Has he been a good news anchor?
> :twisted: :twisted:


 :XD: :XD: :XD: Another good truthful question. WTG mom.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I've said before that I believe President Obama is trying to accomplish all he can and get out alive. Sad commentary on this country for the first black President of the United States.

It says much more about the country than it does about him.

The deliberate lies and rumors spread by the right are despicable.



Designer1234 said:


> Thumper used to - WCK does once in awhile, Mombat did once. It was WCK's idea but they aren't willing to come and just have a conversation. their loss. Oh and Yarnie was talking about it before it started . KPG managed to do what she wanted when she brought up Obamacare.
> 
> Did you see the photo there of the President eating in a school cafeteria and pointing to what he wanted.(On D and P P) a few days ago. YOu should read the things they said - absolutely unbelievable. He was standing in line and was pointing out what he wanted. -- if they haven't got something to say against him in cases like this they say things that are so far out it is unbelievable. If you look at it read the remarks for the next few pages. I felt sick when I did. Haven't gone back. They are
> not in the real world. I don't know, but those aren't the kind of Christians I know even the most narrow minded.
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't think Admin reads it all. I'm not sure it would be removed if members objected.

It is truly a shame....like ugly graffiti on a wall. Once again, it says much more about the poster than it does about the person they ridicule.



maysmom said:


> Designer1234 said:
> 
> 
> > Thumper used to - WCK does once in awhile, Mombat did once. It was WCK's idea but they aren't willing to come and just have a conversation. their loss. Oh and Yarnie was talking about it before it started . KPG managed to do what she wanted when she brought up Obamacare.
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I wish they'd get struck by lightning.



maysmom said:


> And they would never consider that Jesus might be weeping over their hatred.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> His arm over a food guard, hmm. Dangerous. He wasn't touching the food, was he? Or drooling on it, as one of you suggested? How do you know the server wasn't asking him to be clearer pointing it out; when I'm pointing at items through a glass, I usually have to go through several tries before the salesperson figures out what I want.
> 
> Hate his foreign policy. Hate his domestic policy. Hate the speeches he makes. But when you go so far as to make a big deal about his pointing at cafeteria food, you surely realize there's more to your dislike than the way he does his job.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Don't you have anything interesting to discuss?



galinipper said:



> ********************
> Head ,arm and hand.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> I think Matt Lauer is a dolt. Ignorant question.
> 
> A gripe of mine. The people being interviewed on serious questions....and the lack of intelligent questions from the journalists. Blah, blah, blah. I'd laugh if it weren't so serious.


And also so many times, the lack of a good follow up question. When you know they are telling a lie, don't just say ok and move on. I have seen Andrea Mitchell really look stupid.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I've seen good interviews by Charlie Rose.



NJG said:


> And also so many times, the lack of a good follow up question. When you know they are telling a lie, don't just say ok and move on. I have seen Andrea Mitchell really look stupid.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> I don't think Admin reads it all. I'm not sure it would be removed if members objected.
> 
> It is truly a shame....like ugly graffiti on a wall. Once again, it says much more about the poster than it does about the person they ridicule.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Remember, someone from D & P says he'd prbably transmit HIV. Despicable lot, the whole bunch.
> :evil: :evil: :evil:


That is the one that made me the sickest. It is blind hatred and the sad part is that those who hate so much really think they are right. I don't know how someone can say the things they do that are so far from the truth and outrageous. A couple of them have never once said a positive word about him since before the first election -- then they say it isn't racist? Bush was not popular with many Americans but I never heard the hatred. And they also include his wife -


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Funny but I woke up thinking about the admins here. Maybe there are not enough of them to keep this site a bit neater. Or if it is a volunteer job - maybe they do not care enough. Or if there is a policy, maybe they decided to let the political threads be a free for all. It may be good for business and let us not forget that this site is a good business.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Funny but I woke up thinking about the admins here. Maybe there are not enough of them to keep this site a bit neater. Or if it is a volunteer job - maybe they do not care enough. Or if there is a policy, maybe they decided to let the political threads be a free for all. It may be good for business and let us not forget that this site is a good business.


I have dealt with admin since I started the workshops. They have been completely supportive of any pm where i have asked them to consider something. It has been a winding road as KP is not set up for that kind of thread. I have argued with them for a week about one problem and they even made a special place for us.

I think that if there is enough really bad stuff and enough people complain, or, if they see something themselves, they will act.

I don't believe there are more than 3 of them full time and they have another forum for Photography which is exactly the same set up as here. I think if enough of us drew those posts to their attention they would be removed. I just don't really believe in reporting stuff to them unless it is really personal and hurtful.

As there are thousands of Posts each day it is impossible for them to read them all. I have posted personal stuff on these threads and have re thought about them and asked them to delete - and they have always been willing to do so. I honestly have nothing bad to say about them. It is a business for them and they really do a good job in my opinion. They treat us like adults and if we have a beef they look into it. Just my opinion after 3 years of dealing with them a lot.

I do know that they don't have anyone responsible for one part of KP -- I wouldn't have their job for all the tea in china to be honest.

I believe the owners are a young couple and possibly one or two others.I am not absolutely sure about that. I think they do a good job.

Just don't tell them to do something -- ask them nicely and you will get a lot further. They have to deal with a few weird people and some 'fan' of mine threatened to report me constantly so I did ask them one time as I had been threatend over and over with being reported, if it was true -- they answered 'if we have a problem with you you will know - Just remember who it is from and ignore it' . So I don't worry about it.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Designer - what is address for the photography forum?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Designer - what is address for the photography forum?


It is a really good one with a nasty political set of threads just like here. but excellent photography info. here is the link -set up just like this forum.

http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-170364-1.html

Pictures 
===========
http://www.uglyhedgehog.com

Home page. worth a look.

by the way it seems that a proportionally there are more men than women on that thread - but there sure are some wonderful pictures and information there. CHit chat is full of politics - even more than here.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> That is the one that made me the sickest. It is blind hatred and the sad part is that those who hate so much really think they are right. I don't know how someone can say the things they do that are so far from the truth and outrageous. A couple of them have never once said a positive word about him since before the first election -- then they say it isn't racist? Bush was not popular with many Americans but I never heard the hatred. And they also include his wife -


We made fun of Bush, and had a very long 8 years to do so. But never anything like this. It was the things he said as president, not all that personal stuff. He had two daughter who could have been the subject of jokes, but except when one got in trouble, we all kept off them. Even his wife, Laura, wasn't subjected to the kind of hatred the entire Obama family is getting.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

You all saw my other posts re: Hobby Lobby???? They won. Blah.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

alcameron said:


> The FF really does stand for fast forward, which doesn't describe what they really are.
> Has anyone mentioned the fact that the president is a tall person that would have had to practically kneel to point through the glass?
> What a bunch of nasty people, always criticizing for nothing except pure hatred of the man.


How about a Yiddishism? FarFallen? As defined on the site http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Glossary/Yiddish_Words/yiddish_words.html#F

Farfallen

(far-FALL-en) adj. doomed; lost; fallen to hell (he considers the prospect ~).

And we can also offer

Farfoilt

(far-FOILED) adj. Spoiled, rotten, decayed. "Time to get rid of that ~ milk!"

and

Farfufket

(far-FUF-ket) adj. befuddled; stunned; taken aback (the sage looked a bit ~)


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Peacegoddess

Please explain to me again why the civilized world should be boycotting Israel, and why Israel has no right to protect itself:

*Three Bodies Found Believed to Be Missing Israelis*
By JODI RUDOREN and ISABEL KERSHNER
JUNE 30, 2014

JERUSALEM  Israeli military searchers found three bodies believed to be those of the missing Israeli teenagers who disappeared more than two weeks ago in the occupied West Bank, a senior government official said on Monday. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel called an emergency Cabinet meeting.

The official, speaking on the condition of anonymity before the announcement, said the Army found the three bodies buried in a field near Hebron and were waiting to inform the families before releasing information.

They know its the three, they will know for sure after they do the autopsy, the official said. The three appeared to have been shot to death, likely very close to the kidnap time, the official said, and the prime suspects had still not been caught.

The three teenagers, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16, who also holds United States citizenship, were last seen entering a car at about 10 p.m. on June 12 at a hitchhiking stop in the Gush Etzion settlement block, not far from the area being searched.

The disappearances set off an uproar in Israel and deeply aggravated the already strained relations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

At 8 p.m., dozens of military and police vehicles had completely blocked off the north entrance to Halhul, a Palestinian city next to Hebron and the Jewish settlement Karmei Tzur. Inside Halhul, police convoys were operating and scores of troops were visible. But there were practically no cars on Road 60, the main artery south from Jerusalem to Hebron -- the road on which the teenagers would have hitchhiked toward home.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/01/world/middleeast/Israel-missing-teenagers.html?emc=eta1&_r=0


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

NJG said:


> And also so many times, the lack of a good follow up question. When you know they are telling a lie, don't just say ok and move on. I have seen Andrea Mitchell really look stupid.


And then there is dear vapid Baba Wawa attempting to look sincere.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Shirley, thank you for explaining the parameters involving Admin. They are in a similar (and unenviable) position to the two women who administer our local Freecycle network. They also have personal lives (which I certainly hope are fulfilling and that they have some time for fun)


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Peacegoddess

Please explain to me again why the civilized world should be boycotting Israel, and why Israel has no right to protect itself:


I ditto PP's question.

Shocking news but of course Israel is the worst human rights aggressor in the world!


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> Peacegoddess
> 
> Please explain to me again why the civilized world should be boycotting Israel, and why Israel has no right to protect itself:
> 
> ...


Absolutely, indeed, Israelis are aggressive in pursuing human rights for everybody, which is probably why her neighbors see her as a threat.

If the humans in neighboring countries ever had rights such as those we take for granted in civilized countries they would no longer be the tools of the haters who lead them in barbarian behavior.

Women would no longer be non humans to be used and discarded or abused. The horror!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Shirley, thank you for explaining the parameters involving Admin. They are in a similar (and unenviable) position to the two women who administer our local Freecycle network. They also have personal lives (which I certainly hope are fulfilling and that they have some time for fun)


You are welcome -- I am a fan of the admin people here. They are private - their right - but if you deal decently with them they are great. I know that I can approach them about anything. They know I don't 'report people' and that I will cooperate. They also know that I will tell them if I don't agree and each time that has happened we have had discussions and they have come up with the answer which works for them and the workshops. However they have the final decision. They know I acknowledge that.

Only twice have I reported anyone and each time they did something about it. I believe if they know you are not 'stirring' they will accept what you say. Just treat them with respect but don't take them on. This is their forum. They run it and they own it.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> And then there is dear vapid Baba Wawa attempting to look sincere.


You know, I use to like old Baba, but I can not stand her anymore. I for one, will not miss her.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

NewSock003 said:


> Agreed. We liberals can only get so made at Bush because we all know it was really Cheney who was acting president.


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

NewSock003 said:


> Oh bull. If you think her prostlytizing is sincere, I have some swampland in FL I'd like to sell you at a jacked up price.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Absolutely, indeed, Israelis are aggressive in pursuing human rights for everybody, which is probably why her neighbors see her as a threat.
> 
> If the humans in neighboring countries ever had rights such as those we take for granted in civilized countries they would no longer be the tools of the haters who lead them in barbarian behavior.
> 
> Women would no longer be non humans to be used and discarded or abused. The horror!


I'd be aggressive is protecting my territory too if everywhere around me people were trying to completely destroy my country and myself. I agree with everything you say Marilyn.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Absolutely, indeed, Israelis are aggressive in pursuing human rights for everybody, which is probably why her neighbors see her as a threat.
> 
> If the humans in neighboring countries ever had rights such as those we take for granted in civilized countries they would no longer be the tools of the haters who lead them in barbarian behavior.
> 
> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Bitch Magazine has 8 new lobbying techniques to lobby against Hobby Lobby. Go to www.bitchmagazine.com or just google bitch magazine. There is a path to patterns for vulvas, wombs, snatchels, etc.

Get your knitting needles and crochet hooks ready and send your creations to Hobby Lobby's headquarters.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

An Open Letter to the Tiny White Man the Republican Party Has Sent to Live in My Underpants.
BY Kari Anne Roy
- - - -

[Originally published March 30, 2012.]
- -

Dear Tiny White Man In My Underpants,
Bestoftendency_cover_final_pr

Get The Best of McSweeneys Internet Tendency.

Hey! Hows it going today? My guess is: verging on ovulation, potentially cyst-y. Ha! No seriously, Im sorry about the bloating. I know that makes the waistband on my underpants tighter than usual, thus restricting your movement, and I apologize for that. It has to be difficult to get a desk and a lamp and a humidity-resistant Windows machine in there already, without the extra pooch. Its just that sometimes a girl has to eat a bag of salt n vinegar chips entirely on her own, you know? Im sure you do, because you know everything about girls, and the quirks and intricacies of our lady parts.

I was wondering how your daily report is coming along? I know you have to send one to the other tiny white men in all the other ladies underpants so you can all figure out how best we can manage our squishy parts. And for that, Im truly grateful. One less thing to worry about, am I right? Now I can concentrate on more important things like polishing this glass ceiling and dreaming about how much I love giving a good BJ. 
Pdx2

Get The Portlandia Activity Book here!

The thing is, though, before you send off your report I wanted to ask you about what I should do regarding this wonky ovary. Now that youre an expert on all things Unspeakable and Girly, I have to defer to you, Tiny White Man in My Underpants. This son of a bitch ovary hurts. As you know, the doctor wants me to take these birth control pills, but Im no fan of pills. I prefer wonky ovaries and getting as many abortions as my federal government punch card allows.

Just kidding!

Really, though, if you wont write me a permission slip to give to my employer so I can have birth control pills, then Ill have to use all my Economy Stimulus money on medicine. That means two things will happen: a) My vag will potentially cause the failure of Wall Street, and b) every time I say the word stimulus Ill be sad instead of horny. Either way, bad for white dudes.

So what are we going to do, Tiny White Man in my Underpants? Any big bright ideas on how I can earn some extra bank for my hoohah? Surely that was one of the courses you took when you were learning everything there is to know about bajingos. Because the thing is? My bajingo is here to stay. And it needs constant care and attention, just like a hermit crab, or a dwarf hamster. So please tell me you really do know everything there is to know about lady caves. This lady cave needs cash, big time. For medicine. So it doesnt explode.

Interestingly enough, that medicine can also prevent it from producing many more ladies with many more bajingos. That means my abortion punch card gets a rest! And everyone saves money! Quite the nice side effect of ovary-explosion-prevention-pills, no?

So type up that report, will ya? And ask your buddies what they think. A consensus needs to be formed before this cyst KABLAMs, ruining both my outfit and yours. Im not begging you or anything, because I am a grown woman and grown women do not beg, but please? Think of it this way: if my ovary explodes there is going to be at least one very sad man in the world, forced into celibacy while I bleed all over the house. If you cant give me medicine for my own vaginas sakethink of the man in my life. Would you deprive him of the sexy time he deserves after working so hard everyday? Of course you wouldnt. That would break the code of ethics shared by Tiny White Men in Underpants everywhere.

What Im saying is: if you cant approve birth control for the sake of bajingo health, then do it for the penises, man.

Do it for the lonely penises.

They will thank you, and so will I.

Your friend and partner,
Kari


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Ginsburg wrote that her five male colleagues, "in a decision of startling breadth," would allow corporations to opt out of almost any law that they find "incompatible with their sincerely held religious beliefs."

Here are seven more key quotes from Ginsburg's dissent in Burwell v. Hobby Lobby:

"The exemption sought by Hobby Lobby and Conestoga woulddeny legions of women who do not hold their employers' beliefs access to contraceptive coverage"
"Religious organizations exist to foster the interests of persons subscribing to the same religious faith. Not so of for-profit corporations. Workers who sustain the operations of those corporations commonly are not drawn from one religious community."
"Any decision to use contraceptives made by a woman covered under Hobby Lobby's or Conestoga's plan will not be propelled by the Government, it will be the woman's autonomous choice, informed by the physician she consults."
"It bears note in this regard that the cost of an IUD is nearly equivalent to a month's full-time pay for workers earning the minimum wage."
"Would the exemptionextend to employers with religiously grounded objections to blood transfusions (Jehovah's Witnesses); antidepressants (Scientologists); medications derived from pigs, including anesthesia, intravenous fluids, and pills coated with gelatin (certain Muslims, Jews, and Hindus); and vaccinations[?]Not much help there for the lower courts bound by today's decision."
"Approving some religious claims while deeming others unworthy of accommodation could be 'perceived as favoring one religion over another,' the very 'risk the [Constitution's] Establishment Clause was designed to preclude."
"The court, I fear, has ventured into a minefield."


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Other companies that won't cover birth control besides Hobby Lobby.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/hobby-lobby-sebelius-contraceptive-for-profit-lawsuits


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> An Open Letter to the Tiny White Man the Republican Party Has Sent to Live in My Underpants.
> BY Kari Anne Roy
> - - - -
> 
> ...


What a brilliant piece. Thanks for posting, njg.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

NJG said:


> An Open Letter to the Tiny White Man the Republican Party Has Sent to Live in My Underpants.
> BY Kari Anne Roy
> - - - -
> 
> ...


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Bravo!!!!! Should be posted everywhere. Proves women have a sense of humor even if men don't.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Very helpful information. The boycott extends.



NJG said:


> Other companies that won't cover birth control besides Hobby Lobby.
> 
> http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/hobby-lobby-sebelius-contraceptive-for-profit-lawsuits


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

NJG said:


> Other companies that won't cover birth control besides Hobby Lobby.
> 
> http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/hobby-lobby-sebelius-contraceptive-for-profit-lawsuits


Will you,post this on the Hobby Lobby thread? Or do you mind if I post it there?


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Will you,post this on the Hobby Lobby thread? Or do you mind if I post it there?


You may go right ahead. Anytime I post anything and you find another place for it to go, you have my permission to go ahead and post.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

NJG said:


> You may go right ahead. Anytime I post anything and you find another place for it to go, you have my permission to go ahead and post.


Done. Thanks.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

The vast majority of female students allegedly raped on campus are actually voicing buyers remorse from alcohol-fueled, promiscuous behavior involving murky lines of consent on both sides, [National Post columnist Barbara Kay] said, drawing chuckles from the audience. Its true. Its their get-out-of-guilt-free card, you know like Monopoly. The chuckles turned to guffaws.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/06/28/1310304/--Majority-of-Female-students-allegedly-raped-on-campus-are-actually-voicing-buyer-s-remorse?detail=email


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> The vast majority of female students allegedly raped on campus are actually voicing buyers remorse from alcohol-fueled, promiscuous behavior involving murky lines of consent on both sides, <National Post columnist Barbara Kay>
> said, drawing chuckles from the audience. Its true. Its their get-out-of-guilt-free card, you know like Monopoly. The chuckles turned to guffaws.
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/06/28/1310304/--Majority-of-Female-students-allegedly-raped-on-campus-are-actually-voicing-buyer-s-remorse?detail=email


Is Barbara Kay the female George Will? "The chuckles turned to guffaws" indeed.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Hear. Hear. Spread the word.



NJG said:


> You may go right ahead. Anytime I post anything and you find another place for it to go, you have my permission to go ahead and post.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I want to hunt them down and chuckle them. Grrr!



NJG said:


> The vast majority of female students allegedly raped on campus are actually voicing buyers remorse from alcohol-fueled, promiscuous behavior involving murky lines of consent on both sides, [National Post columnist Barbara Kay] said, drawing chuckles from the audience. Its true. Its their get-out-of-guilt-free card, you know like Monopoly. The chuckles turned to guffaws.
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/06/28/1310304/--Majority-of-Female-students-allegedly-raped-on-campus-are-actually-voicing-buyer-s-remorse?detail=email


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I liked the article's punch line. (Last sentence. Even the most dense male will understand what they should do.)



NJG said:


> The vast majority of female students allegedly raped on campus are actually voicing buyers remorse from alcohol-fueled, promiscuous behavior involving murky lines of consent on both sides, [National Post columnist Barbara Kay] said, drawing chuckles from the audience. Its true. Its their get-out-of-guilt-free card, you know like Monopoly. The chuckles turned to guffaws.
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/06/28/1310304/--Majority-of-Female-students-allegedly-raped-on-campus-are-actually-voicing-buyer-s-remorse?detail=email


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Is Barbara Kay the female George Will? "The chuckles turned to guffaws" indeed.


It never fails to amaze me how 1) people that stupid find a public forum and 2) any woman can be such an embarrassment to the rest of us as to buy in to this sort of rapist propaganda.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> It never fails to amaze me how 1) people that stupid find a public forum and 2) any woman can be such an embarrassment to the rest of us as to buy in to this sort of rapist propaganda.


1) Glenn Beck? Rush Limbaugh? 2) this one amazes me, too. She's obviously never met any woman who's been raped. Which probably means she only hangs out with men.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Peacegoddess
> 
> Please explain to me again why the civilized world should be boycotting Israel, and why Israel has no right to protect itself:
> 
> ...


And now that Israelis are demonstrating (violently, in most cases), they will be held responsible.

See http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.602523

and, from the online NYTimes, though not in the early print edition: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/03/world/middleeast/israel.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=LedeSumLargeMedia&module=a-lede-package-region®ion=lede-package&WT.nav=lede-package&_r=1


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Well we said this Hobby Lobby decision would open a can of worms, and it seems that it has.

That argument you keep hearing from the Right, about how Hobby Lobby still offers 16 kinds of birth control that they don't believe is abortion-y, so quit your bitchin' libs? Yeah, well, the Supreme Court punched a hole in that one.

The Supreme Court on Tuesday confirmed that its decision a day earlier extending religious rights to closely held corporations applies broadly to the contraceptive coverage requirement in the new health care law, not just the handful of methods the justices considered in their ruling.

The justices did not comment in leaving in place lower court rulings in favor of businesses that object to covering all 20 methods of government-approved contraception. []

The justices also ordered lower courts that ruled in favor of the Obama administration to reconsider those decisions in light of Monday's 5-4 decision.

Women's groups have been warning for years that it's not about abortion. It's about birth control. And it's not just about the actual drugs or devices, it's about your doctor even talking to you about contraception. And that's just been rubber-stamped by the highest court in the land.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/01/1310918/-Supreme-Court-clarifies-Yes-Hobby-Lobby-is-about-all-slut-pills?detail=email

If you didn't listen to Rachel tonight, here she is.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/watch/hobby-lobby-seen-as-means-of-discrimination-295404611510

Some more reading.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/hobby-lobby-case-myths-debunked


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

This is what Rush had to say about women and birth control. 

Pregnancy requires action that has consequences and yet we treat it as a great imposition that women need to be protected from. It's a sickness, it's a disease, and there has to be a pill for it, and yet they wouldn't have the problem if they didn't do a certain thing. It's that simple. 

This is what Erik Erickson said in a tweet. 

My religion trumps your "right" to employer subsidized consequence free sex.
 @EWErickson

These a__holes make it sound like we do this all by ourselves.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> This is what Rush had to say about women and birth control.
> 
> Pregnancy requires action that has consequences and yet we treat it as a great imposition that women need to be protected from. It's a sickness, it's a disease, and there has to be a pill for it, and yet they wouldn't have the problem if they didn't do a certain thing. It's that simple.
> 
> ...


Doesn't Erickson's tweet sound sarcastic? It's a takeoff on that moronic Joe the Plumber, telling a father whose child had been shot "My right to own a gun trumps your dead children," or something equally disgusting.

Edited to add: I take back what I wrote. The man sounds like a Rick.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knittery said:


> No, she's just another self-loathing female conservative that will sell her sisters out to get the approval of men
> .
> 
> There are a LOT of these types on the Right.


Surely that can't be true.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Doesn't Erickson's tweet sound sarcastic? It's a takeoff on that moronic Joe the Plumber, telling a father whose child had been shot "My right to own a gun trumps your dead children," or something equally disgusting.


I just watched a video the other day of some veteran saying because he served in the military, his rights trumped those families with dead kids.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> I just watched a video the other day of some veteran saying because he served in the military, his rights trumped those families with dead kids.


Either there's an epidemic or sarcasm in this country, or a lot of people who should keep quiet can't help opening their mouths.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

I keep wondering where they get these people from and then here they come with another one. You have to read this or you won't believe it.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/01/1311022/-GOP-candidate-regrets-his-criminal-past-sexual-fetish-involving-cars?detail=email


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> I keep wondering where they get these people from and then here they come with another one. You have to read this or you won't believe it.
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/01/1311022/-GOP-candidate-regrets-his-criminal-past-sexual-fetish-involving-cars?detail=email


No matter how I try, I can't get this link to work. For some reason, Yahoo (which is not my chosen search engine) keeps telling me Page not found. Even when I click on the Daily Kos email.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

NJG said:


> This is what Rush had to say about women and birth control.
> 
> Pregnancy requires action that has consequences and yet we treat it as a great imposition that women need to be protected from. It's a sickness, it's a disease, and there has to be a pill for it, and yet they wouldn't have the problem if they didn't do a certain thing. It's that simple.
> 
> ...


The great imposition might be a penis.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

NJG said:


> This is what Rush had to say about women and birth control.
> 
> Pregnancy requires action that has consequences and yet we treat it as a great imposition that women need to be protected from. It's a sickness, it's a disease, and there has to be a pill for it, and yet they wouldn't have the problem if they didn't do a certain thing. It's that simple.
> 
> ...


And are these the pigs who wink and smirk at the rape culture that is yet to be eradicated?


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> No matter how I try, I can't get this link to work. For some reason, Yahoo (which is not my chosen search engine) keeps telling me Page not found. Even when I click on the Daily Kos email.


Try pulling up Bing as your search engine. It came up for me on Bing.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> And are these the pigs who wink and smirk at the rape culture that is yet to be eradicated?


And they have never avoided free sex? or pushed a woman to have sex, Or forced the same? come on!! Anyone as arrogant as Rush has not been lily white - but then he doesn't have to worry about bringing a child in to the world. Sheesh! Not his responsiblilty - just some woman who he has no respect for. It makes me see red.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

They obviously should not breed. No danger.



NJG said:


> This is what Rush had to say about women and birth control.
> 
> Pregnancy requires action that has consequences and yet we treat it as a great imposition that women need to be protected from. It's a sickness, it's a disease, and there has to be a pill for it, and yet they wouldn't have the problem if they didn't do a certain thing. It's that simple.
> 
> ...


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Try pulling up Bing as your search engine. It came up for me on Bing.


That wouldn't have worked. The Kos website was down for maintenance. And then I went to bed, so I still haven't seen it, but I will now.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> They obviously should not breed. No danger.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> The great imposition might be a penis.


Coming from Limbaugh, that would not be a _great_ imposition - it would barely be noticeable.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> And they have never avoided free sex? or pushed a woman to have sex, Or forced the same? come on!! Anyone as arrogant as Rush has not been lily white - but then he doesn't have to worry about bringing a child in to the world. Sheesh! Not his responsiblilty - just some woman who he has no respect for. It makes me see red.


Personally, I can think of any woman who would debase herself to sleep with that pig. He has no respect for women at all, Shirl.
Al Franken wrote a book a few years back called"Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Liar. It's most entertaining!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> I see nothing wrong. dd is on open forum therefore open to all. If rules have changed, notice should be given.


That is just evil!! CB used to be a nice person. I can't believe that she would stoop so low to post links like that.So sorry you had to be
insulted like that, SQ. :evil: I have no respect for that at all.

Has she forgotten that Jesus and his parents were Jews?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Coming from Limbaugh, that would not be a _great_ imposition - it would barely be noticeable.


Well you know what they say, Purl. The bigger the mouth the smaller the "appendage".


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Well you know what they say, Purl. The bigger the mouth the smaller the "appendage".


Oh, I had not heard that, but I really like that one. I need to pass that on. Thanks


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Coming from Limbaugh, that would not be a _great_ imposition - it would barely be noticeable.


I live in blissful ignorance of the aforementioned.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> That is just evil!! CB used to be a nice person. I can't believe that she would stoop so low to post links like that.So sorry you had to be
> insulted like that, SQ. :evil: I have no respect for that at all.
> 
> Has she forgotten that Jesus and his parents were Jews?


Excuse me? What lie is being told on me this time?


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

I heard today was there was a conference on Mens rights held in Michigan so they could discuss fatherhood, paternity and other issues they felt were biased against men. Poor babies, the thing to blame for all their problems is the feminist movement.

Highlights:
Rape is our get out of guilt free card.

Just because we regret our life choices doesn't mean it's rape.

Guilty feelings do not equal sexual assault.

Feminism is the evil empire.

My opinion--These men are all single!

http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/avfm-is-hosting-international-conference-on-mens-issues/

http://www.thefrisky.com/2014-06-13/doubletree-hotel-in-detroit-no-longer-hosting-mens-rights-activists-conference/

http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/avfms-report-the-first-international-conference-on-mens-issues-sponsored-by-a-voice-for-men/


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

NJG said:


> I heard today was there was a conference on Mens rights held in Michigan so they could discuss fatherhood, paternity and other issues they felt were biased against men. Poor babies, the thing to blame for all their problems is the feminist movement.
> 
> Highlights:
> Rape is our get out of guilt free card.
> ...


Or all republican!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Ladies, I owe CB and SQM an apology here. The post I read was over a month ago and did not realize that before I opened my BIG mouth and posted. 
So, CB, I am sorry and hope that you will accept my apology.
SQM, I am sorry and am glad to hear that you and CB are friends.
BP


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Ladies, I owe CB and SQM an apology here. The post I read was over a month ago and did not realize that before I opened my BIG mouth and posted.
> So, CB, I am sorry and hope that you will accept my apology.
> SQM, I am sorry and am glad to hear that you and CB are friends.
> BP


What a mensch you are. Glad it all got straightened out. I think that exchange with CB is even older than that. Smile everyone. A Brat must be a Brat.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> What a mensch you are. Glad it all got straightened out. I think that exchange with CB is even older than that. Smile everyone. A Brat must be a Brat.


I know exactly how you feel - I did the same thing to CB and apologized but she is still angry with me. Not much I can do.
I read an old post and started reading on the wrong day and reacted - then found out it was in the past. I still feel badly about it. not forgiven though. So be it.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> And they have never avoided free sex? or pushed a woman to have sex, Or forced the same? come on!! Anyone as arrogant as Rush has not been lily white - but then he doesn't have to worry about bringing a child in to the world. Sheesh! Not his responsiblilty - just some woman who he has no respect for. It makes me see red.


Poor Rush--he can't seem to stay married. The bags must keep
falling off his inflated head. (I was going to say "little head," but, you know...)
:shock: :shock: :shock:


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Well you know what they say, Purl. The bigger the mouth the smaller the "appendage".


His must be miniscule. 
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Didn't he 'invent' the teeny wienie?



Poor Purl said:


> Coming from Limbaugh, that would not be a _great_ imposition - it would barely be noticeable.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

NJG said:


> I heard today was there was a conference on Mens rights held in Michigan so they could discuss fatherhood, paternity and other issues they felt were biased against men. Poor babies, the thing to blame for all their problems is the feminist movement.
> 
> My opinion--These men are all single!
> 
> /


If they aren't, they should be! Sound like a real bunch of winners - not.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Poor Rush--he can't seem to stay married. The bags must keep
> falling off his inflated head. (I was going to say "little head," but, you know...)
> :shock: :shock: :shock:


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

damemary said:


> Didn't he 'invent' the teeny wienie?


Well, he was born with one...


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Not to steer the conservation away from Rush's little teenie wienie. I want to wish you all a happy 4th!
Have fun!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Happy 4th to you all! :-D


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Happy 4th to you all! :-D


And to you. Welcome back, Cheeky. We've missed you.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

I think this has been posted before, but time for it again.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

re: NJG's posts:

On the idiot one, Israel of course was grouped with the rest of the idiots. Are there other countries we support with more money?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And it never grew. Just like his brain.



maysmom said:


> Well, he was born with one...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Allow me to add my best wishes to all for an enjoyable holiday weekend.



Cheeky Blighter said:


> Happy 4th to you all! :-D


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for the words of wisdom.



NJG said:


> I think this has been posted before, but time for it again.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I like this one


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I like this one


Isn't that perfect!!! It's always been that way in America.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

NJG said:


> I think this has been posted before, but time for it again.


Thanks NJG. Liked them all . . .


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Hi, Patty. Good to see you. I've decided to get some knitting and reading into my life. That means less time here . . .


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Hi, Patty. Good to see you. I've decided to get some knitting and reading into my life. That means less time here . . .


I have been on a reading binge myself, al. I just can't get into knitting when the weather is so nice. A good book, a comfy chair in the shade, and a glass of iced tea (when it's not raining) is in my daily routine!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I like this one


That's just perfect.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

alcameron said:


> I like this one


White man forget conveniently.    :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Excellent Al.



alcameron said:


> I like this one


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I like this one


Isn't it sad that they were a bunch of ingrates who ended up biting the hands that fed them? Hope the newer wave of immigrants prove to be more sincere fellow citizens. The majority of the ones who came in the late 1800's and early 1900's certainly tried to integrate into the mainstream and work toward the betterment of society.


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## admin (Jan 12, 2011)

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Please feel free to continue the conversation in the new topic that was automatically created here:

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