# Adam and Eve?



## user64822 (Jun 21, 2012)

Heard from my cousin's son today that he and his partner were outside the station when a man with a megaphone was nearby giving a sermon to anyone who would listen. He noticed D and L and started berating them...this still through the megaphone, telling them that God meant it to be Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. (By the way, that phrase is old hat and boring).
D said he has no problem with people voicing their opinions, but he and L were being victimised and insulted, an entirely different thing.

I know there are many people on here who believe that The Holy Bible is absolutely true, and that is their right.
I am not meaning to be contentious. I am a Christian who has different views about the Bible, particularly the Old Testament. 

In the discussion that followed, about Adam and Eve, the point was raised about God saying that homosexuality is an abomination. I want to ask, is incest not an abomination? Are we not all the products of incest, if the story of Adam and Eve is true?


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## McOzzy72 (Jul 24, 2013)

Well I am a gay male. I was raised Southern Baptist. I always though the Bible was the truth and that it did not contain any lies or any untruths. Well I took a religion class in college and after I learn that the Bible that most religions use the King James version was translated by the scholars of King James. He had them to translate the Bible the way he though people should believe. I also found out that the only true Bible would be the Hebrew Bible. I still believe in God and Read the Bible but now I question some of the things in the Bible. For instance, the Bible state that God loves every person. How can it in one place make that statement and in another state a complete different theory?


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## joycevv (Oct 13, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear your cousin was so publicly insulted. How terrible that the same people who are sure they are right about everything are the ones that keep us from moving forward and solving the problems of the world. 

I'm afraid this topic will go on for 30 pages. I'm afraid you've poked a stick in the hornet's nest!


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Elsie Shufflebottom said:


> Heard from my cousin's son today that he and his partner were outside the station when a man with a megaphone was nearby giving a sermon to anyone who would listen. He noticed D and L and started berating them...this still through the megaphone, telling them that God meant it to be Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. (By the way, that phrase is old hat and boring).
> D said he has no problem with people voicing their opinions, but he and L were being victimised and insulted, an entirely different thing.
> 
> I know there are many people on here who believe that The Holy Bible is absolutely true, and that is their right.
> ...


Good for D for standing up and taking this person to task. It is how we live our lives, how we treat other people that is important. I fought for homosexual reform and decriminalisation in the 1970s here in Perth. We initially fought for a Woolfenden type committee to be set up, and took it from there. Not sure if I have the xorrect spelling, but Woolfenden was instrumental in introducing decriminalisation of homosexuality into UK in the 1960s.


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## Sao (Jan 2, 2013)

joycevv said:


> I'm sorry to hear your cousin was so publicly insulted. How terrible that the same people who are sure they are right about everything are the ones that keep us from moving forward and solving the problems of the world.
> 
> I'm afraid this topic will go on for 30 pages. I'm afraid you've poked a stick in the hornet's nest!


 :thumbup:


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## user64822 (Jun 21, 2012)

chriso1972 said:


> Well I am a gay male. I was raised Southern Baptist. I always though the Bible was the truth and that it did not contain any lies or any untruths. Well I took a religion class in college and after I learn that the Bible that most religions use the King James version was translated by the scholars of King James. He had them to translate the Bible the way he though people should believe. I also found out that the only true Bible would be the Hebrew Bible. I still believe in God and Read the Bible but now I question some of the things in the Bible. For instance, the Bible state that God loves every person. How can it in one place make that statement and in another state a complete different theory?


That is the problem that I have. The Bible has been translated over and over, by people who have an axe to grind, and often mistranslated. The books that were chosen were not the only ones written. I still regard the Bible as a Holy Book, and a very interesting thing to read, but I do not believe everything in it. I was taught that God loves us all. If He made us in His image then how He made you, as a gay man, is right, you are also made in his image, just as I, a woman, was made in his image. And God would never regard you as an abomination. The God I was taught about loves every one of us.


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## jojoacker62 (Jun 10, 2013)

Christo1972 re: the hebrew bible; It has also been "edited" many times over more than 2 ,000 years. Since you mentioned the course you took, I guess you would enjoy some books like, "Who Wrote the Bible" and others. Maybe your local library has some. Knowledge is Power. Have Fun !


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## user64822 (Jun 21, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Good for D for standing up and taking this person to task. It is how we live our lives, how we treat other people that is important. I fought for homosexual reform and decriminalisation in the 1970s here in Perth. We initially fought for a Woolfenden type committee to be set up, and took it from there. Not sure if I have the xorrect spelling, but Woolfenden was instrumental in introducing decriminalisation of homosexuality into UK in the 1960s.


I lived near Brighton in the late 60s. Brighton has always been a town with a large gay community. The difference in the lives of that community since the changing of the law is wonderful. Well done for you helping to follow the UK's lead in this matter.


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## bell (Jan 21, 2011)

Elsie Shufflebottom said:


> Heard from my cousin's son today that he and his partner were outside the station when a man with a megaphone was nearby giving a sermon to anyone who would listen. He noticed D and L and started berating them...this still through the megaphone, telling them that God meant it to be Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. (By the way, that phrase is old hat and boring).
> D said he has no problem with people voicing their opinions, but he and L were being victimised and insulted, an entirely different thing.
> 
> I know there are many people on here who believe that The Holy Bible is absolutely true, and that is their right.
> ...


My friend I know where you are going but there is no prove of incest in the bible. Genes says that Adam was the first man made in GOD's ingane, That is to say he was made up of three parts, flesh, soul and sprit. Also if you remeber that also in Genes it tells of God casting Satan down first. Adam and Eve were made after that. In fact to tell the truth humans were created after Santa changed God that if HE was not controlling humans thought and life that they would turn
turn way from him. SO you could said that the human race was a test case. I do not believe in man marring man nor female marring female for two resons: I do not belive in it but also if they do so world wide Man kind would die off due
to fact of one of the two sexs of human would have die off. And yes doctors may be able one day to make a baby in a test tube, but where would they get the 32 gems that make a human, You know the part that make you one of a kind. So no matter what you thank there could come a time when where could be only one sex. Please don't say that would never happen because it could. Saying all that all I ask from is live life as you wish just don,t pass it on me. Bell
P.S.
The bigger problem is goverment get in the middle if it.
The founding father understood that that was the probelm in England. The church of England was telling you what you had to belive and not letting you make up your mind.


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## user64822 (Jun 21, 2012)

joycevv said:


> I'm sorry to hear your cousin was so publicly insulted. How terrible that the same people who are sure they are right about everything are the ones that keep us from moving forward and solving the problems of the world.
> 
> I'm afraid this topic will go on for 30 pages. I'm afraid you've poked a stick in the hornet's nest!


Well I expect to get stung! I don't usually post subjects like this, so I'll be interested to see what happens!


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## user64822 (Jun 21, 2012)

bell said:


> My friend I know where you are going but there is no prove of incest in the bible. Genes says that Adam was the first man made in GOD's ingane, That is to say he was made up of three parts, flesh, soul and sprit. Also if you remeber that also in Genes it tells of God casting Satan down first. Adam and Eve were made after that. In fact to tell the truth humans were created after Santa changed God that if HE was not controlling humans thought and life that they would turn
> turn way from him. SO you could said that the human race was a test case. I do not believe in man marring man nor female marring female for two resons: I do not belive in it but also if they do so world wide Man kind would die off due
> to fact of one of the two sexs of human would have die off. And yes doctors may be able one day to make a baby in a test tube, but where would they get the 32 gems that make a human, You know the part that make you one of a kind. So no matter what you thank there could come a time when where could be only one sex. Please don't say that would never happen because it could. Saying all that all I ask from is live life as you wish just don,t pass it on me. Bell
> P.S.
> ...


Thank you for your reply. If people do believe that we are all descended from Adam and Eve, there must have been incest...there were no other people, surely?


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Adams first wife was Lilith . So the bible teaches " if you don't like your wife, just take another one?......


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## JoanAbrams (Jan 19, 2014)

Good for you Elsie. I don't believe in shying away from controversy just because someone might disagree. Drives my husband nuts. Life needs to be lived to the edge. And as we please as long as we do no harm. For the life of me, I can't understand why a gay marriage harms me in any way.


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## run4fittness (May 22, 2011)

I love your reasoning! I have raised this same point with a couple of Baptist preachers and they did not appreciate it!

Wolves and bald eagles have same sex partners so why is it wrong for man? I have gay friends and relatives and I just don't really care. It is their live and as long as they are happy that is what I consider important!


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

littlebaba said:


> Adams first wife was Lilith . So the bible teaches " if you don't like your wife, just take another one?......


Not many people acknowledge his red headed first wife. That is why Eve was made from his rib, Lilith would not obey him, so God made Eve from part of him so she would obey him. Fortunately, she did not always do so and taught her daughters to strive for freedom. Unfortunately some women still have not achieved this freedom.

I think the Jews refer to Lilith as the screech owl, but I could be mistaken.


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## JoanAbrams (Jan 19, 2014)

Only old MALE Jews


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## diamondbelle (Sep 10, 2011)

IMHO - bigotry in any form is an abomination against humanity.

Unless your cousin's son and his partner were making out or holding hands or hugging in public, how did this so-called preacher even know that they were gay or partners?

Recently, here in Arizona, there was a proposal for a law to allow businesses to refuse to do business with gays. My question was, how does anyone know if a person is gay? If my neighbor (a recent widow) and I (married to the same man for 35 years) go to lunch together - does the server "assume" that we are gay because we are 2 females having lunch together?

I was baptized Catholic & was educated in Catholic schools, but even as a young child, I questioned some of the teachings. As I grew older and experienced more of life, I realized that those teachings have been manipulated by man to suit their own purposes. 

Religion has been the cause of more deaths and wars than any other reason - the persecution of the Jews from the time of Christ, Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Arab/Israeli wars, the Holocaust, the ethnic "cleansings," - I could go on and on.

People should mind their own business. I have gay friends and straight friends. To me each have their own qualities and are special in their own right. 

According to the Bible, Adam and Eve had 3 sons, Cain, Abel and Seth, then other children. Who did they mate with in order to produce the human race? There had to have been incest, if you believe the Bible to be accurate. On the other hand, Methuselah was supposed to have lived 969 years - so go figure.


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## DonnieK (Nov 23, 2011)

The whole issue here is that the NEW TESTAMENT was just what it says. After Christ came to the earth in human form for man to see and associate with they were being taught that LOVE was the main message he was bringing. I think people want to make too much out of the Bible. Now you all know that I am a Christian, I believe in Jesus as the Son of God, the Comforter, and I believe in His teachings. We are not the judges of humans behaviour. We are to love them, to tell them about Jesus, to pray they will accept Him and to believe in Him. We are not to confess our sins to anyone or make excuses for our behaviour, or ask for forgiveness of another human being. That is between ourselves and Jesus the Christ. He is the only way we can get to God the Father. God can not look on sin, but through Jesus our sins are covered by the blood. And, no sin is any greater than another. A sin is a sin is a sin. If you lie....that sin is not greater than killing someone. It is sin. So lest you forget the first man who is without sin can throw the first stone. 
People want to make the Bible difficult. Make the excuse that what it says is translated by many people and many ways, but I am here to tell you that the Bible was translated by God's power. It is a teaching of old stories and new stories. It will give you what you need to hear. If you chose to believe, that is wonderful and I will see you in Heaven. If you chose not to believe, I am sorry for your soul. I do not judge you that is not my place. My place is to love you. It does not matter if you are white, or black or yellow or green polka dots. I do not care if you are gay or straight or if you abstain or if you are a street person by dark of night, I love you. That is what my whole life is about. If people could learn the lessons in the bible without a closed mind, they would see what I see and those who pretend to know the bible and preach against everyone's sins instead of the truth the bible wants us to learn of love and acceptance this world would be in a far better state than it is right now. 
Go ahead and judge me, but you better always be perfect after you do! Chris, I don't care if you are gay I love your knitting and I thank you for becoming a part of this group. Acceptance people not stone throwers!!!!


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## Janicesei (Jan 8, 2014)

I am a Christian and know I fall short in Gods eyes, but he forgives and loves me. (Thank you God)

I know God loves you too, the Bible tells me so. Ask God for protection from the enemy the attack did not come from God. Ask God to make a way for you and those you love to move around safe from harm. Then, just as Jesus did from the cross, ask God to fill your heart with love and to forgive those who speak evil of you. Hard to do, but don't let them turn you into them. Best to you and yours.


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## azmoonbugs (Dec 2, 2011)

chriso1972 said:


> Well I am a gay male. I was raised Southern Baptist. I always though the Bible was the truth and that it did not contain any lies or any untruths. Well I took a religion class in college and after I learn that the Bible that most religions use the King James version was translated by the scholars of King James. He had them to translate the Bible the way he though people should believe. I also found out that the only true Bible would be the Hebrew Bible. I still believe in God and Read the Bible but now I question some of the things in the Bible. For instance, the Bible state that God loves every person. How can it in one place make that statement and in another state a complete different theory?


The Bible was written by men, not a God and men color the text with their own thoughts, feelings, and moralities.

Best to think of it that way and not get drawn into the frey.


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## azmoonbugs (Dec 2, 2011)

diamondbelle said:


> IMHO - bigotry in any form is an abomination against humanity.
> 
> Unless your cousin's son and his partner were making out or holding hands or hugging in public, how did this so-called preacher even know that they were gay or partners?
> 
> ...


I agree


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## nittineedles (Apr 14, 2011)

Elsie I am so sorry your cousin's son and his partner had to endure the public ridicule and embarrassment.
I might have found one of the comments on here highly entertaining, except I couldn't understand it due to all the spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

I am selective about what I believe. I agree about the translations. So much of organized religion seems like big business to me advancing their agenda. 
I much prefer to believe in my own way and practice kindness ,Charity, compassion and so many of the traits that join us together as humans. I don't believe gay people have a choice. They are born gay. I believe there is room on this planet for all of us, all colors, all faiths and the more we learn about each other, the more we will respect each other. If we continue to be afraid instead of educating ourselves the world will continue to be a mess.just my opinions.


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## Jhawk213 (May 19, 2014)

DonnieK said:


> The whole issue here is that the NEW TESTAMENT was just what it says. After Christ came to the earth in human form for man to see and associate with they were being taught that LOVE was the main message he was bringing. I think people want to make too much out of the Bible. Now you all know that I am a Christian, I believe in Jesus as the Son of God, the Comforter, and I believe in His teachings. We are not the judges of humans behaviour. We are to love them, to tell them about Jesus, to pray they will accept Him and to believe in Him. We are not to confess our sins to anyone or make excuses for our behaviour, or ask for forgiveness of another human being. That is between ourselves and Jesus the Christ. He is the only way we can get to God the Father. God can not look on sin, but through Jesus our sins are covered by the blood. And, no sin is any greater than another. A sin is a sin is a sin. If you lie....that sin is not greater than killing someone. It is sin. So lest you forget the first man who is without sin can throw the first stone.
> People want to make the Bible difficult. Make the excuse that what it says is translated by many people and many ways, but I am here to tell you that the Bible was translated by God's power. It is a teaching of old stories and new stories. It will give you what you need to hear. If you chose to believe, that is wonderful and I will see you in Heaven. If you chose not to believe, I am sorry for your soul. I do not judge you that is not my place. My place is to love you. It does not matter if you are white, or black or yellow or green polka dots. I do not care if you are gay or straight or if you abstain or if you are a street person by dark of night, I love you. That is what my whole life is about. If people could learn the lessons in the bible without a closed mind, they would see what I see and those who pretend to know the bible and preach against everyone's sins instead of the truth the bible wants us to learn of love and acceptance this world would be in a far better state than it is right now.
> Go ahead and judge me, but you better always be perfect after you do! Chris, I don't care if you are gay I love your knitting and I thank you for becoming a part of this group. Acceptance people not stone throwers!!!!





DonnieK said:


> If you chose to believe, that is wonderful and I will see you in Heaven. If you chose not to believe, I am sorry for your soul. I do not judge you that is not my place.


The second sentence in your above quote implies to me, that you are being judgemental. Why would you be sorry for my soul?

I don't believe in Adam and Eve but theoretically, I believe their children's union (with whom one can only conject) would indeed be incest.


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## ruth Roxanne (Mar 18, 2012)

DonnieK said:


> The whole issue here is that the NEW TESTAMENT was just what it says. After Christ came to the earth in human form for man to see and associate with they were being taught that LOVE was the main message he was bringing. I think people want to make too much out of the Bible. Now you all know that I am a Christian, I believe in Jesus as the Son of God, the Comforter, and I believe in His teachings. We are not the judges of humans behaviour. We are to love them, to tell them about Jesus, to pray they will accept Him and to believe in Him. We are not to confess our sins to anyone or make excuses for our behaviour, or ask for forgiveness of another human being. That is between ourselves and Jesus the Christ. He is the only way we can get to God the Father. God can not look on sin, but through Jesus our sins are covered by the blood. And, no sin is any greater than another. A sin is a sin is a sin. If you lie....that sin is not greater than killing someone. It is sin. So lest you forget the first man who is without sin can throw the first stone.
> People want to make the Bible difficult. Make the excuse that what it says is translated by many people and many ways, but I am here to tell you that the Bible was translated by God's power. It is a teaching of old stories and new stories. It will give you what you need to hear. If you chose to believe, that is wonderful and I will see you in Heaven. If you chose not to believe, I am sorry for your soul. I do not judge you that is not my place. My place is to love you. It does not matter if you are white, or black or yellow or green polka dots. I do not care if you are gay or straight or if you abstain or if you are a street person by dark of night, I love you. That is what my whole life is about. If people could learn the lessons in the bible without a closed mind, they would see what I see and those who pretend to know the bible and preach against everyone's sins instead of the truth the bible wants us to learn of love and acceptance this world would be in a far better state than it is right now.
> Go ahead and judge me, but you better always be perfect after you do! Chris, I don't care if you are gay I love your knitting and I thank you for becoming a part of this group. Acceptance people not stone throwers!!!!


Well said DonnieK! That is also what I believe after years of doubt, study, and trusting that God sent Jesus as a representative of how we should treat others. Not up to us to judge!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Jhawk213 said:


> The second sentence in your above quote implies to me, that you are being judgemental. Why would you be sorry for my soul?
> 
> I don't believe in Adam and Eve but theoretically, I believe their children's union (with whom one can only conject) would indeed be incest.


Unless of course, if you follow "Ancient Aliens", there is still one way out of the incest dilemma.


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## kiwiannie (Jul 30, 2011)

A question i have ponded over many years,how did Adam and Eve populate the world when they only had two sons Able and Cain,when one slew the other brother and there was no woman for him to keep the world going.Work it out.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Tell D and L to stay away from Texas, where the GOP saw fit to write a party platform embracing gay conversion therapy as a viable option for those gays who want to change. Why on earth do they still think being gay is a choice and why on earth should it be included in a party platform???

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/05/texas-gop-conversion-therapy_n_5454875.html


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## ozziedee (May 11, 2011)

I have a wonderful gay grandson and I think he is one of the best things that ever happened to this old grandma.he is honest hardworking and very loyal to his partner his partner is also a fine young man.no one can tell me it is any business of anyone but theirs it is their life and how they choose to live it is up to them.
Ozziedee


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## Ms. Tess (Mar 2, 2012)

Each and every human being is entitled to belief, lifestyle, values, and the right to the pursuit happiness. There will always be those that would inflict their beliefs (or try to) on anyone who they feel need to hear them. It saddens me that in the year 2014 with all the unrest and problems in the world, all that man had to do was throw stones at your cousin and his partner? Very sad indeed. As long as any person finds happiness and love with another, they should be commended for that, not belittled. Years ago after leaving an abusive partner I was approached by a clergyman and told that I was breaking God's laws and should return and "fix this". I replied "When you can show me that until death do us part means that he can beat me to death, then I will not return as I do not believe that to be what the bible meant". I was told that I was evil for interpreting the bible for my own means. Just goes to show you that no matter what the situation, there is always someone that will try and twist your situation to make you look badly. For those that are not as strong, character wise, they will let that remark take root in their own minds and eat away at them. I am happy to say I never did return and have found a loving gentle man who treats me like a queen, and he is king to my queen, so we are very happy and live a good life together. Can anyone honestly ask for more than that? Love, kindness, gentleness, respect, care and tenderness are things that make the world go around. Without those things in your life, you are unhappy and that is no way anyone should have to live. It doesn't matter who is gay, lesbian, bi, blue, green, orange or purple..as long as they are happy and live a good life, blessings to them. I had a co worker make reference to someone whom I worked with that had just "come out". I said, out of where...the rain? the building? the sunshine? She looked at me and said, no stupid, she just admitted that she is openly lesbian. I asked her what difference that could possibly make when working with this gal? She started with the "Well you may encounter others that are uncomfortable working with her"...to which I countered "If she isn't in your bed when you want to sleep, what possible difference could being a lesbian make?" Poor thing didn't have another word to say to me on the subject. I think that sometimes less is better and the less one makes of these things, the better it is all the way around. It annoys me that there are those that want to be so called supporters of alternate life styles, but on the other hand, start stirring trouble when it comes to looking for problems. My grandmother always said, Don't go borrowing trouble" and I agree. If you start looking for problems, you will always find an abundance readily available. If you treat people like you would like them to treat you, problems have a way of working themselves out without adding to the collection. =)


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Re the incest question:

Because Adam and Eve were created perfect, their gene pool would not have been corrupted until after the Fall. Children of close relatives that married soon after the Fall would not be subject to the same degeneration that would occur in later generations. 

It wasn't until God gave the people the law of Moses that He established laws concerning incest.


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## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

What about the Flood? Noah and his family were saved, and that's it. Incest there?
.. I have 3 uncles who are pastors/missionaries and several cousins... have NEVER heard of Lilith in regards to Adam. I have heard of Lilith as queen of vampires, or the first vampire.
Anyway, I am deeply sorry, Elsie, that your family had to endure that questionable Christian's hateful words.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> What about the Flood? Noah and his family were saved, and that's it. Incest there?
> .. I have 3 uncles who are pastors/missionaries and several cousins... have NEVER heard of Lilith in regards to Adam. I have heard of Lilith as queen of vampires, or the first vampire.
> Anyway, I am deeply sorry, Elsie, that your family had to endure that questionable Christian's hateful words.


A lot of people have not heard of Lilith, Adam's first wife. I believe she is mentioned in Isaiah 34:14 and mentioned in the Talmud. You have relatives who are pastors and missionaries, but I think it depends on the particular church to which you belong whether there would be mention of Lilith. Different churches have different interpretations of many things that are written. This is not meant as a condemnation of any church but is merely stated to emphasise the fact that we are all different and all have different belief systems.


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## Takara (May 20, 2013)

It was awful that your cousins son was insulted in public .
I have always maintained Live and let live, and treat others how you would like to be treated.
Unfortunately people can be very cruel.


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## inishowen (May 28, 2011)

Elsie, I'm sure it was breaking the law for that preacher to berate your cousin and his partner like that. As for the bible stuff, I was brought up attending church on Sunday morning, Sunday school in the afternoon, and church in the evening. It was enough to put me off church for life, although I still believe in God. I consider the bible to be a mismash of stories written by various people and there's no reason why we should follow it.


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## Confuzzled (May 31, 2014)

This man berating anyone in public in this way is NOT acting in anyway that I consider Christ-like. As to the law of the land, it is, at the very least a breach of the peace.


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## TapestryArtist (Sep 4, 2013)

It has been studied over and over again that approximately 9 to 12 percent of all humankind is gay. I don't think that "straight" people will ever stop having sex, and therefore, children. We are what we are, and that's all there is to it. :roll:


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## Chezl (Mar 12, 2012)

See the DVD Religulous. A real eye opener.


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## gayleH (Mar 7, 2014)

If we follow this line of unreasonable reasoning, that would mean infertile couples shouldn't be allowed to marry, or elderly people past child bearing years. And trust me, here where i live, the amount of welfare mothers popping out babies to increase their payments more than makes up for the babies not being born to male couples. As for lesbian couples, almost all the ones I personally know (which is many, being as I am part of the LBGT community) have children. STRAIGHT children too  Imagine that!



bell said:


> My friend I know where you are going but there is no prove of incest in the bible. Genes says that Adam was the first man made in GOD's ingane, That is to say he was made up of three parts, flesh, soul and sprit. Also if you remeber that also in Genes it tells of God casting Satan down first. Adam and Eve were made after that. In fact to tell the truth humans were created after Santa changed God that if HE was not controlling humans thought and life that they would turn
> turn way from him. SO you could said that the human race was a test case. I do not believe in man marring man nor female marring female for two resons: I do not belive in it but also if they do so world wide Man kind would die off due
> to fact of one of the two sexs of human would have die off. And yes doctors may be able one day to make a baby in a test tube, but where would they get the 32 gems that make a human, You know the part that make you one of a kind. So no matter what you thank there could come a time when where could be only one sex. Please don't say that would never happen because it could. Saying all that all I ask from is live life as you wish just don,t pass it on me. Bell
> P.S.
> ...


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## laceandbits (Jun 23, 2011)

nittineedles said:


> I might have found one of the comments on here highly entertaining, except I couldn't understand it due to all the spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors.


Especially as apparently Santa was involved with God in some way...


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## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

Bell writes: "Santa changed God" ?????


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## gayleH (Mar 7, 2014)

laceandbits said:


> Especially as apparently Santa was involved with God in some way...


That is the problem with many homophobes: they are often uneducated. Amazing how a little education opens one's mind, and allows one's heart to open wide too. It is high time we used the brains we were given to think for ourselves, and stop allowing organized religion to dictate our thoughts. The bible is, in fact, a collection of stories passed down through the ages and interpreted by man to suit which ever political leanings of the day that were important to the ruling class. One can find "biblical" stories (such as the story of Noah) in Sumerian myths and legends, far predating the bible or any organized religious thought. However, as I am a firm believer in live and let live, let the homophobes continue to expose themselves as ignorant. That is their right. It also allows me to see clearly where my haters are, without having to dig for them through a cloud of political correctness.


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## gayleH (Mar 7, 2014)

taborhills said:


> Bell writes: "Santa changed God" ?????


Apparently. And apparently we humans are made up of 32 gems. I would like mine to be rubies, please.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

_"He among you that is without typing dyslexia may cast the first tones!"_

;-) ;-) ;-)


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## E P Guinn (Jun 1, 2014)

Is this really a subject to be discussed here??


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## NYBev (Aug 23, 2011)

Exactly, Donnie K!


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## gayleH (Mar 7, 2014)

E P Guinn said:


> Is this really a subject to be discussed here??


Seeing as it is under general chit chat, why not? We are all free to participate, or not, depending on our comfort level. I am assuming we are all adults here, able to respect each other's views?


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## Caroline Currer (Feb 11, 2013)

gayleH said:


> That is the problem with many homophobes: they are often uneducated. Amazing how a little education opens one's mind, and allows one's heart to open wide too. It is high time we used the brains we were given to think for ourselves, and stop allowing organized religion to dictate our thoughts. The bible is, in fact, a collection of stories passed down through the ages and interpreted by man to suit which ever political leanings of the day that were important to the ruling class. One can find "biblical" stories (such as the story of Noah) in Sumerian myths and legends, far predating the bible or any organized religious thought. However, as I am a firm believer in live and let live, let the homophobes continue to expose themselves as ignorant. That is their right. It also allows me to see clearly where my haters are, without having to dig for them through a cloud of political correctness.


Well said!


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## hildy3 (Jan 29, 2011)

Chezl said:


> See the DVD Religulous. A real eye opener.


Sorry, too vague. Another opinion? Eye-opener to what?
Maggie


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## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

Gerslay said:


> _"He among you that is without typing dyslexia may cast the first tones!"_
> 
> ;-) ;-) ;-)


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## gayleH (Mar 7, 2014)

hildy3 said:


> Sorry, too vague. Another opinion? Eye-opener to what?
> Maggie


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religulous

Seeing as it was produced by Bill Maher, I will personally give it a pass. I think he is ridiculous.


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## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

gayleH said:


> Seeing as it is under general chit chat, why not? We are all free to participate, or not, depending on our comfort level. I am assuming we are all adults here, able to respect each other's views?


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

taborhills said:


> Bell writes: "Santa changed God" ?????


I think she meant Satan.


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## gayleH (Mar 7, 2014)

knovice knitter said:


> I think she meant Satan.


I have no doubt she did, though given the multitude of grammatical and spelling errors, it's hard to say for sure. Personally, I found it interesting that she ended her post with, "Saying all that all I ask from is live life as you wish just don,t pass it on me. Bell" and yet feels no such compunction to resist "passing" her religious beliefs on to others.


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## hildy3 (Jan 29, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> _"He among you that is without typing dyslexia may cast the first tones!"_
> 
> ;-) ;-) ;-)


I completely agree with you. If the "intelligentia"
here cannot figure Genesis and Satan out that post,
then don't criticize, unless, of course, you are perfect. Maggie


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

gayleH said:


> ...Personally, I found it interesting that she ended her post with, "Saying all that all I ask from is live life as you wish just don,t pass it on me. Bell" and yet feels no such compunction to resist "passing" her religious beliefs on to others.


Nor you yours?

;-) ;-) ;-)


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## gayleH (Mar 7, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> Nor you yours?
> 
> ;-) ;-) ;-)


I'm not dictating to anyone about how they should conduct their lives, based on my spiritual beliefs.


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## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

knovice knitter said:


> I think she meant Satan.


So she meant "Satan changed God"? Then Satan is more powerful than God? I think she meant "Satan challenged God."
The whole story is a myth, unprovable, undocumented of course, but a story (in JOB) told to make some theological points. Reading the actual Biblical story and discussing it with open-minded people is worthwhile and raises very ultimate questions, which are really left unanswered at the end of this book of the Bible.

BTW "homosexuality" is not mentioned in JOB, and that word was not even used till the 19th C. It is a concept, a word, but
probably too amorphous to be useful in serious discussion. People who say they "don't believe in homosexuality" could be more precise about exactly what they do not believe in. Do we ever say we "believe in" heterosexuality?

People vary. People differ. I observe this. I do not have to "believe in" variety or difference; it happens and has always, so far as we know, happened. So let it be. Why tie ourselves in knots arguing about whether we believe in or approve of
facts.


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## gayleH (Mar 7, 2014)

taborhills said:


> So she meant "Satan changed God"? Then Satan is more powerful than God? I think she meant "Satan challenged God."
> The whole story is a myth, unprovable, undocumented of course, but a story (in JOB) told to make some theological points. Reading the actual Biblical story and discussing it with open-minded people is worthwhile and raises very ultimate questions, which are really left unanswered at the end of this book of the Bible.
> 
> BTW "homosexuality" is not mentioned in JOB, and that word was not even used till the 19th C. It is a concept, a word, but
> ...


Well stated. Personally, I am not asking people to "believe in my orientation. I'm not asking for tolerance, or even acceptance. I would like it to be a non-issue. This is who I am, and I cannot be changed, nor do I wish to be changed. How I live my life (which, BTW, is every bit as moral as anyone else) has no direct impact on anyone's religious beliefs, or anyone's marriage. I do not have the power to turn children gay, nor do I have any desire to. I am asking for the very same human rights enjoyed by the rest of Western civilization, and to be left alone.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

gayleH said:


> I'm not dictating to anyone about how they should conduct their lives, based on my spiritual beliefs.


Neither was Bell.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

gayleH said:


> If we follow this line of unreasonable reasoning, that would mean infertile couples shouldn't be allowed to marry, or elderly people past child bearing years. And trust me, here where i live, the amount of welfare mothers popping out babies to increase their payments more than makes up for the babies not being born to male couples. As for lesbian couples, almost all the ones I personally know (which is many, being as I am part of the LBGT community) have children. STRAIGHT children too  Imagine that!


And the lesbian couples are making excellent parents. My niece is a lesbian and had a daughter by IVF 20 years ago. The girl is utterly charming in every way, she always makes people feel welcome. She is straight, with a boyfriend. Her mother, my niece, also has a loving nature and is a devoted daughter to her mother, my sister. Over the years I have also known several lesbian mothers who have been in a same sex relationship and their children do not have any problems. Some of them have children from failed hetrosexual marriages and some from IVF but it makes no difference, they are all caring mothers. A person's loving and caring nature does not depend on their sexual orientation.


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## hildy3 (Jan 29, 2011)

Just want to add a thought to this and past and future controversial subjects.
When KP started in 2011, I seem to remember that discussions about religion and politics were not allowed.
Now, we are 116,000+ strong and most everything is allowed.
Also, you have the right to PM Admin and ask that a particular topic be "blocked", if you feel it has gone too long and becomes hurtful or vicious. He reads all PMs and will respond with his take on it. 
I am not referring to this subject, per se, but giving a bit of info that some may not be aware of. 
Keep the faith! Whatever it may be. Love is a small but powerful word and it does conquer all....Maggie


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

nittineedles said:


> Elsie I am so sorry your cousin's son and his partner had to endure the public ridicule and embarrassment.
> I might have found one of the comments on here highly entertaining, except I couldn't understand it due to all the spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors.


I think you are criticising the incorrect poster for spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors. I believe these occurred in the post below one of Elsie's postings. I think if you check back you will see the post, to which I refer.

If you will check you will see the name of this poster is ------. You may have been confused because she quoted Elsie's previous posting, but the post was not made by Elsie. I think you owe Elsie an apology. I have sent you a PM showing the post to which you refer.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Precisely. She's from the old school that teaches "Do as I say, not as I do."


gayleH said:


> I have no doubt she did, though given the multitude of grammatical and spelling errors, it's hard to say for sure. Personally, I found it interesting that she ended her post with, "Saying all that all I ask from is live life as you wish just don,t pass it on me. Bell" and yet feels no such compunction to resist "passing" her religious beliefs on to others.


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## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

Could we please refrain from labeling third parties, as in "She's from the old school ...."

Any topic can be interesting, but it is not that worthwhile to hear one person slam another.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

As many of you know, I am a lesbian made by love. I married a transgender man. Since I love this person deeply and saw his pain everyday, I agreed to the transformation to women. Seeing how happy. She is now makes me tankful. I would never leave her and our live is just filled with love and respect. How many " normal" marriages are like this? Thankfully we married in Switzerland and since none of us filled for diverse, we are still legally married. We are lucky, everybody around us is cool with our decision and if they judge behind our back, let them, it's OUR live


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

hildy3 said:


> Just want to add a thought to this and past and future controversial subjects.
> When KP started in 2011, I seem to remember that discussions about religion and politics were not allowed.
> Now, we are 116,000+ strong and most everything is allowed.
> Also, you have the right to PM Admin and ask that a particular topic be "blocked", if you feel it has gone too long and becomes hurtful or vicious. He reads all PMs and will respond with his take on it.
> ...


This topic is neither hurtful or vicious. I see no reason why it should be blocked. Just because you feel uncomfortable discussing certain topics does not mean that they should be blocked. The rule regarding not posting anything relating to sex, religion or politics was changed. We should all be mature adults here, I believe you have to be over 18 to join KP. Honestly, if you are not comfortable with the topic no one is forcing you to read it, especially each and every post. You can just click out of that topic and go on to another topic. This site covers more than discussing crafts, it discusses life. You can and should tackle a post that is nasty, mean and critical of another poster or their way of life.

Can you elaborate on your comment "I am not referring to this subject, per se, but giving a bit of info that some may not be aware of"? What do you mean by "but giving a bit of info that some may not be aware of"?


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## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

littlebaba said:


> As many of you know, I am a lesbian made by love. I married a transgender man. Since I love this person deeply and saw his pain everyday, I agreed to the transformation to women. Seeing how happy. She is now makes me tankful. I would never leave her and our live is just filled with love and respect. How many " normal" marriages are like this? Thankfully we married in Switzerland and since none of us filled for diverse, we are still legally married. We are lucky, everybody around us is cool with our decision and if they judge behind our back, let them, it's OUR live


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

taborhills said:


> Could we please refrain from labeling third parties, as in "She's from the old school ...."
> 
> Any topic can be interesting, but it is not that worthwhile to hear one person slam another.


That comment is not a slam.


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## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

You have already learned from and survived the suffering which can bring us love and wisdom. May your positive choices continue to strengthen you and enrich the world.


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## Chezl (Mar 12, 2012)

hildy3 said:


> Sorry, too vague. Another opinion? Eye-opener to what?
> Maggie


An eye-opener to bible bashing from the other side.


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## hildy3 (Jan 29, 2011)

EvaCooke: Yes, Mother!! Really!! That WAS a vicious attack. Go back and read my post again. I never said there is anything wrong with this subject, nor has it gone on too long A post that questioned it being appropriate today was why I gave "info" about Admin. It is very simple and harmless and may be useful at some point to newer members, which you are. You joined in 2013, I, in 2011. 
Do you, also, know what you so nastily informed me of? If you don't like my comment..skip it! But no, you had to hurt my feelings because you are obviously in a very bad mood today. Snap out of it and try to be nice...Maggie


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

hildy3 said:


> Yes, Mother!! Really!! That WAS a vicious attack. Go back and read my post again. I never said there is anything wrong with this subject, nor has it gone on too long A post that questioned it being appropriate today was why I gave "info" about Admin. It is very simple and harmless and may be useful at some point to newer members.
> Do you, also, know what you so nastily informed me of? If you don't like my comment..skip it! But no, you had to hurt my feelings because you are obviously in a very bad mood today. Snap out of it and try to be nice...Maggie


Ditto...it was informational only...and obviously so!


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## hildy3 (Jan 29, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Ditto...it was informational only...and obviously so!


Whew! Thank you so much Gerslay. I needed that. Maggie


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## Chezl (Mar 12, 2012)

gayleH said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religulous
> 
> Seeing as it was produced by Bill Maher, I will personally give it a pass. I think he is ridiculous.


You are passing judgement without proper knowledge. Just joking. It really is very interesting. It is a view from a person who was brought up very religious but made up his own mind as an adult. He confronts religious people about certain aspects of the bible and asks them questions about the truth and relevance of it. He is like a bible basher in the opposite way. Giving them some of their own back. He even got some honest views of the bible from a priest. It was a humourous, honest and thoughtful video and frankly wasn't what I expected when I borrowed it from the library. I really enjoyed it.


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## gayleH (Mar 7, 2014)

hildy3 said:


> EvaCooke: Yes, Mother!! Really!! That WAS a vicious attack. Go back and read my post again. I never said there is anything wrong with this subject, nor has it gone on too long A post that questioned it being appropriate today was why I gave "info" about Admin. It is very simple and harmless and may be useful at some point to newer members, which you are. You joined in 2013, I, in 2011.
> Do you, also, know what you so nastily informed me of? If you don't like my comment..skip it! But no, you had to hurt my feelings because you are obviously in a very bad mood today. Snap out of it and try to be nice...Maggie


Actually, I don't believe either of you were trying to hurt feelings. Maggie, your post was information that we newbies appreciated. I didn't see anything in it to condemn. Eva misread it, certainly, and responded to what she thought you were saying, but take emotions out, and reread, and I think you will see that she wasn't being vicious, or intentionally attacking you. Unfortunately, subjects such as this one tend to elicit strong feelings that can lead to misunderstandings. Peace ladies!


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## gillian lorraine (Aug 18, 2011)

hildy3 said:


> Whew! Thank you so much Gerslay. I needed that. Maggie


I assumed it was for info:
I did not know how to complain about certain subject matters (I just "unwatched"them)

The threads become a bit "snarly" and unpleasant,


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## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

Do you, also, know what you so nastily informed me of? If you don't like my comment..skip it! But no, you had to hurt my feelings because you are obviously in a very bad mood today. Snap out of it and try to be nice...Maggie[/quote]

Dear Maggie,

Ease up there. No one can "hurt your feelings" unless you let them. You are OK and so is she. No one needs to be scolded, just heard. As you say, "try to be nice"!


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## TapestryArtist (Sep 4, 2013)

I have been told during a recent discussion that the person "doesn't believe in it", as if it is a choice. You are what you are what you are what you are. Dealing with that is easy for me as I am comfortable with all kinds of people, and I hope that all kinds of people are comfortable with me. One important thing thing for me is, I do not believe that being gay has anything at all to do with religion. It is what it is.


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## DonnieK (Nov 23, 2011)

This has been very interesting and eye-opening and again shows that KP'ers like to have discussions sometimes that open our eyes and our minds. Some may be uncomfortable with the comments, but if you take them as they are written instead of what the person is trying to say, it can seem snarly.
I like the fact that we can come together and discuss our differences and yet be able to agree that some things do make sense if you think about what is being said.

Now, all that drivel being said, I want to say that KP is a great forum and this line of discussion has been very interesting. Everyone has the right to believe as they please. I believe that Jesus taught love and mercy and and that is what I try to practice. I love everyone and as I have stated many times ethnicity or sexual choices do not come in to play. I try to treat all people as I want to be treated. That being kindness, love, and sharing of hearts.
I don't have all the answers, nor do I want to. But, I believe that everyone has the right to feel as they feel because there is no morality in feelings, they are just that , feelings! As I have said before I try not to judge because that is neither my job nor my right.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> True Marriage is ordained by God. The so called "homosexual marriage" has been put in place by the state. They can never be equal.


Joeysomma
I am again and again amazed what you think you know. Now, tell me, were Adam and Eve married? No assumptions, facts is what I am looking for and which elude you all too often.


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## gayleH (Mar 7, 2014)

joeysomma said:


> True Marriage is ordained by God. The so called "homosexual marriage" has been put in place by the state. They can never be equal.


Marriage is a social construct designed to legitimize offspring for inheritance rights. Furthermore, for hundreds of years, women were sold into marriage to unite ruling families and acquire more property/land. You can keep your so-called "true marriage". I just want the right to unite with whomever I chose to, man or woman, and have given to me all the same rights and responsibilities that are offered to other segments of our society. Real simple. There are plenty of churches willing to "marry" me, BTW, if a religious service is what I desire. And, news flash: in many countries, and in several States, same sex marriages are EQUAL. Might I suggest you put down your version of the bible, and pick up some history books (same thing really) and study marriage through the millennium.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> _"He among you that is without typing dyslexia may cast the first tones!"_
> 
> ;-) ;-) ;-)


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> True Marriage is ordained by God. The so called "homosexual marriage" has been put in place by the state. They can never be equal.


My marriage is as equal as any so called " ordained by god" marriage. I think even lovlier than most of them. And I don't think Adam and Eve were ever married by god.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

gayleH said:


> Marriage is a social construct designed to legitimize offspring for inheritance rights. Furthermore, for hundreds of years, women were sold into marriage to unite ruling families and acquire more property/land. You can keep your so-called "true marriage". I just want the right to unite with whomever I chose to, man or woman, and have given to me all the same rights and responsibilities that are offered to other segments of our society. Real simple. There are plenty of churches willing to "marry" me, BTW, if a religious service is what I desire. And, news flash: in many countries, and in several States, same sex marriages are EQUAL. Might I suggest you put down your version of the bible, and pick up some history books (same thing really) and study marriage through the millennium.


gayleH
I applaud your wisdom. We will hear more and more from the ever shrinking group that Joyesomma belongs to because soon they will have to shout to be heard by anyone. Fewer and fewer are listing to her outdated sermons. The majority is looking and fighting for more and more freedom.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Joeysomma
> I am again and again amazed what you think you know. Now, tell me, were Adam and Eve married? No assumptions, facts is what I am looking for and which elude you all too often.


And if they were, who was their flower girl?


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## gayleH (Mar 7, 2014)

It always bothers me how some use the bible to legitimize their bigotry. It has been used throughout the ages to condone hatred toward women, toward blacks, and toward the LBGT community. Some are very quick to point out where the few mentions of homosexuality are to be found, and yet clever (or not so clever) to ignore other items in the same acts. For one example: stoning. Apparently, that was an acceptable method of punishment, according to the bible, and yet one we no longer even imagine using in our modern and enlightened world. In fact, we are outraged by the countries (mostly Muslim) who still practice this archaic and horrific crime. It's hypocrisy to cling to one outdated idea while feigning horror for another. Also, the vast majority of mention of homosexuality as a "sin" come from the old testament, but if you consider yourself a christian, you are following the new...you know, the teachings of Christ. Wasn't he all about loving one's neighbor as oneself, turn the other cheek kind of guy? You just can't have it both ways and expect to be taken seriously by modern free-thinking adults.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

taken seriously by modern free-thinking adults."

In that is the rub. Nice to meet you Gayle. Tons of the above are on this site. So don't get too dismayed or feel that you have to defend an entire group of people for those who will never be convinced.

As if your life in Montreal affects any of theirs in the Bible Belt.

Who said live and let life? Answer: I did!


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## gayleH (Mar 7, 2014)

joeysomma said:


> The "marriage" by the state either homo or hetro is a contract with legal rules, right and responsibilities.


Like I said, you can keep your so-called "true marriage". I want no part of any religion that preaches bigotry, and hatred or refuses to join the modern world. I suppose you believe we should bring stoning back into use as a punishment?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

gayleH said:


> It always bothers me how some use the bible to legitimize their bigotry. It has been used throughout the ages to condone hatred toward women, toward blacks, and toward the LBGT community. Some are very quick to point out where the few mentions of homosexuality are to be found, and yet clever (or not so clever) to ignore other items in the same acts. For one example: stoning. Apparently, that was an acceptable method of punishment, according to the bible, and yet one we no longer even imagine using in our modern and enlightened world. In fact, we are outraged by the countries (mostly Muslim) who still practice this archaic and horrific crime. It's hypocrisy to cling to one outdated idea while feigning horror for another. Also, the vast majority of mention of homosexuality as a "sin" come from the old testament, but if you consider yourself a christian, you are following the new...you know, the teachings of Christ. Wasn't he all about loving one's neighbor as oneself, turn the other cheek kind of guy? You just can't have it both ways and expect to be taken seriously by modern free-thinking adults.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> taken seriously by modern free-thinking adults."
> 
> In that is the rub. Nice to meet you Gayle. Tons of the above are on this site. So don't get too dismayed or feel that you have to defend an entire group of people for those who will never be convinced.
> 
> ...


They're not all in the Bible Belt - Joeysomma is in Wisconsin; I think Yarnie is, too. And there are plenty of people in the so-called Bible Belt who are open and accepting of others' life choices.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

How about everyone keep their noses out of my religious beliefs and I will do the same for you....as well I have absolutely no interest in sticking my nose into anyone's sexual orientation. What someone does in their private life is none of my business as long as it is not affecting my life. I have straight and gay friends and I make no distinction between them. People are people, accept them as they are or leave them alone.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> They're not all in the Bible Belt - Joeysomma is in Wisconsin; I think Yarnie is, too. And there are plenty of people in the so-called Bible Belt who are open and accepting of others' life choices.


The Bible Belt is, for me, a state of mind.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> How about everyone keep their noses out of my religious beliefs and I will do the same for you....as well I have absolutely no interest in sticking my nose into anyone's sexual orientation. What someone does in their private life is none of my business as long as it is not affecting my life. I have straight and gay friends and I make no distinction between them. People are people, accept them as they are or leave them alone.


Hi, Cindy. I would recommend avoiding the phrase "sticking my nose into anyone's sexual orientation"; it has too many funny connotations.


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## gayleH (Mar 7, 2014)

Cindy S said:


> How about everyone keep their noses out of my religious beliefs and I will do the same for you....as well I have absolutely no interest in sticking my nose into anyone's sexual orientation. What someone does in their private life is none of my business as long as it is not affecting my life. I have straight and gay friends and I make no distinction between them. People are people, accept them as they are or leave them alone.


With all due respect, if someone uses their religious beliefs to deny another their full rights, then they are leaving said beliefs open to examination and challenges. Since you are not using your religion as a weapon to bash another, I have no issue with you. I do, however take issue with people with the same attitudes as joesmomma. Try not to take it personally.


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## gayleH (Mar 7, 2014)

joeysomma said:


> It matters not what you want to do in private, but keep it private.


In other words, crawl back into the closet and shut the door quietly?


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Elsie Shufflebottom said:


> I want to ask, is incest not an abomination? Are we not all the products of incest, if the story of Adam and Eve is true?


Even closer to today than that if the story is true...incest and inbreeding. Noah's family.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

gayleH said:


> Like I said, you can keep your so-called "true marriage". I want no part of any religion that preaches bigotry, and hatred or refuses to join the modern world. I suppose you believe we should bring stoning back into use as a punishment?


Traditional marriage=polygamy, selling your daughter, supporting mistresses on the side (that the wives know about). Gee, isn't that all "biblical"?


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

gayleH said:


> With all due respect, if someone uses their religious beliefs to deny another their full rights, then they are leaving said beliefs open to examination and challenges. Since you are not using your religion as a weapon to bash another, I have no issue with you. I do, however take issue with people with the same attitudes as joesmomma. Try not to take it personally.


No problem, not taking anything personally, I learned a long time ago to ignore attitudes like joeysomma, I try not to reply to ignorance


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Hi, Cindy. I would recommend avoiding the phrase "sticking my nose into anyone's sexual orientation"; it has too many funny connotations.


Hi Purl, you know me, just putting it out there!!


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

gayleH said:


> In other words, crawl back into the closet and shut the door quietly?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :roll: :roll: :roll: Joey will never change, stuck in the 18th century.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> And if they were, who was their flower girl?


Poor Purl
joeysomma will tell us all about it. She probably will claim that she was there.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :roll: :roll: :roll: Joey will never change, stuck in the 18th century.


Cindy,
has she advanced to the 18th? I missed that.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

hildy3 said:


> EvaCooke: Yes, Mother!! Really!! That WAS a vicious attack. Go back and read my post again. I never said there is anything wrong with this subject, nor has it gone on too long A post that questioned it being appropriate today was why I gave "info" about Admin. It is very simple and harmless and may be useful at some point to newer members, which you are. You joined in 2013, I, in 2011.
> Do you, also, know what you so nastily informed me of? If you don't like my comment..skip it! But no, you had to hurt my feelings because you are obviously in a very bad mood today. Snap out of it and try to be nice...Maggie


I am going over my posting to see where the vicious attack you claim is. My first post is in italics so it can be read separately from my reply here.

_This topic is neither hurtful or vicious_
- that is not a vicious attack as claimed by you, surely.

_I see no reason why it should be blocked_.
- that is not a vicious attack as claimed by you, surely.

_Just because you feel uncomfortable discussing certain topics does not mean that they should be blocked_.
- that is not a vicious attack as claimed by you, surely.

_The rule regarding not posting anything relating to sex, religion or politics was changed_.
- that is not a vicious attack as claimed by you, surely. and yes you were a member before I was but I had been reading for a long time before I joined, for two years in fact. I did not join before because I had no need to join. You can read without joining, you only need to join if you wish to post. Therefore I knew that the rules had changed since 2011 when posts regarding sex, religion and politics were not allowed. I am sure you were also aware that the rules had changed since 2011.

_We should all be mature adults here, I believe you have to be over 18 to join KP_.
- that is not a vicious attack as claimed by you, surely.

_Honestly, if you are not comfortable with the topic no one is forcing you to read it, especially each and every post_. 
- that is not a vicious attack as claimed by you, surely.

_You can just click out of that topic and go on to another topic_. 
- that is not a vicious attack as claimed by you, surely.

_This site covers more than discussing crafts, it discusses life_. 
- that is not a vicious attack as claimed by you, surely.

_You can and should tackle a post that is nasty, mean and critical of another poster or their way of life_.
- that is not a vicious attack as claimed by you, surely, but you may have interpreted it as an attack.

_Can you elaborate on your comment "I am not referring to this subject, per se, but giving a bit of info that some may not be aware of"? What do you mean by "but giving a bit of info that some may not be aware of"_?
- that is not a vicious attack as claimed by you, surely. I asked a question, I asked what you meant by your comment "but giving a bit of info that some may not be aware of?" How is asking a question for clarification of a point deemed to be a vicious attack.

*I do not understand your comment "Do you, also, know what you so nastily informed me of?" I have so nastily informed you of what??????? I have not no nastily accused you of anything*

All I can say is. please take your own advice " you had to hurt my feelings because you are obviously in a very bad mood today. Snap out of it and try to be nice..."

You are accusing me of a nasty vicious attack when there was no such attack. I think it is you who is having a bad day here. You are seeing a vicious attack when there was none but you came out with both barrels blazing and accused me, without foundation.

End of discussion, I can see that this will not resolve anything. You are entitled to your point of view and I have no desire to change it. You are free to think and believe what ever you choose to believe.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Even closer to today than that if the story is true...incest and inbreeding. Noah's family.


Noah's sons were already married when they boarded: "On the very same day Noah and his sons, Shem and Ham and Japheth, and Noah's wife and *the three wives of his sons* with them entered the ark."


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Cindy,
> has she advanced to the 18th? I missed that.


 :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> It matters not what you want to do in private, but keep it private.


So far, nobody's made public what s/he does in private. But if just saying s/he's gay makes it too public, so does any mention of a woman's husband (or a man's wife). Must we keep our spouses hidden as well?


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

gayleH said:


> Like I said, you can keep your so-called "true marriage". I want no part of any religion that preaches bigotry, and hatred or refuses to join the modern world. I suppose you believe we should bring stoning back into use as a punishment?


gayleH
they speak against the muslims but try at the same time to get us into the same culture (actually culture is not the proper word for it). Now I wish to make very clear that most Muslims are fine people and so are most Christians but the ones I encounter here are very questionable to say the least. Their bigotry and racism always shows through. Their Fundamentalist fundamentals are horrid.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Hi Purl, you know me, just putting it out there!!


You just did it again.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> gayleH
> they speak against the muslims but try at the same time to get us into the same culture (actually culture is not the proper word for it). Now I wish to make very clear that most Muslims are fine people and so are most Christians but the ones I encounter here are very questionable to say the least. Their bigotry and racism always shows through. Their Fundamentalist fundamentals are horrid.


Huck, my neighbors on my right are Muslims, they are the kindest, most generous people I have ever had the privilege to know, on the other hand, 2 doors to the left is a fundamentalist Christian, who is perhaps the least favorite of everyone's neighbor, deliberately allowing their dog to defecate on the lawn of the Muslims, leaving religious materials in the mail box and attempting to convert and CONTROL the neighborhood. They put up a for sale sign on their property 2 weeks ago, also claiming their property value went down because of "those" people.

It is ignorance like that that drives me up a wall, and I see it often unfortunately.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Noah's sons were already married when they boarded: "On the very same day Noah and his sons, Shem and Ham and Japheth, and Noah's wife and *the three wives of his sons* with them entered the ark."


True. But there wasn't anything else in the gene pool, was there? Everything else coming (and I'm a bit surprised, considering the time that Noah's sons weren't said to have already reproduced) had to inbreed. Everything before that was already incestually produced.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> We as a country are doing very well following the rules.
> 
> Saul Alinskys 12 Rules for Radicals
> 
> ...


I hope you'll also come up with the instructions of ALEC to state legislatures, the suggestions of Frank Luntz on how to cause trouble while pretending to be so good, and Karl Rove's history of forging documents and carrying out push polls.

Come to think of it, other than having been written by Saul Alinsky (a name that seems to send shivers down your spine), what you've posted looks exactly like Frank Luntz's ideas.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You just did it again.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> True. But there wasn't anything else in the gene pool, was there? Everything else coming (and I'm a bit surprised, considering the time that Noah's sons weren't said to have already reproduced) had to inbreed. Everything before that was already incestually produced.


But wouldn't that follow even to today? Unless it got infusions from extraterrestrial visitors, it would be the same gene pool for all of us.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> We as a country are doing very well following the rules.
> 
> Saul Alinskys 12 Rules for Radicals
> 
> ...


SAUL Alinsky!!!!!!! One of my old favorites when I was studying radical social theory in the early '70s. Mrs. Somma how do you know of him? Totally amazed.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> But wouldn't that follow even to today? Unless it got infusions from extraterrestrial visitors, it would be the same gene pool for all of us.


Of course it does. We just don't have to go back to the "beginning" to count it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> SAUL Alinsky!!!!!!! One of my old favorites when I was studying radical social theory in the early '70s. Mrs. Somma how do you know of him? Totally amazed.


Isn't he one of the bodies that Satan uses to walk among men?

Really, he's one proof that the current US administration is at least socialist, if not communist. When the Repubs follow the same course of action, that's only proof that it's the right one.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Of course it does. We just don't have to go back to the "beginning" to count it.


Okay. Got it.


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## TapestryArtist (Sep 4, 2013)

Yes....for a much better chance that the offspring will be the male marriage partners. It's always been about money, hasn't it? 

I think that life is a learning ground. There is so much I could say about that but I don't have the time right now.


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## TapestryArtist (Sep 4, 2013)

Communist? Really! Vote Democrat!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

TapestryArtist said:


> Communist? Really! Vote Democrat!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> A lot of people have not heard of Lilith, Adam's first wife. I believe she is mentioned in Isaiah 34:14 and mentioned in the Talmud. You have relatives who are pastors and missionaries, but I think it depends on the particular church to which you belong whether there would be mention of Lilith. Different churches have different interpretations of many things that are written. This is not meant as a condemnation of any church but is merely stated to emphasise the fact that we are all different and all have different belief systems.


No, the Bible doesn't mention Lilith at all.

Isaiah 34:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

Lilith was a demon that dates back to the Sumerians (about 4500 years B.C.). She appears in the mythology of several civilizations, always as a demon. Some say the reference to "screech owl" refers to Lilith, but that is reaching IMO.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> Huck, my neighbors on my right are Muslims, they are the kindest, most generous people I have ever had the privilege to know, on the other hand, 2 doors to the left is a fundamentalist Christian, who is perhaps the least favorite of everyone's neighbor, deliberately allowing their dog to defecate on the lawn of the Muslims, leaving religious materials in the mail box and attempting to convert and CONTROL the neighborhood. They put up a for sale sign on their property 2 weeks ago, also claiming their property value went down because of "those" people.
> 
> It is ignorance like that that drives me up a wall, and I see it often unfortunately.


Cindy S.
sounds like you are one of my neighbors. You describe our neighborhood. The least liked (actually not liked at all) is a Fundamentalist Family here and it looks like they are going to leave, finally cleaning up our surroundings from Poison. They are so hateful.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Noah's sons were already married when they boarded: "On the very same day Noah and his sons, Shem and Ham and Japheth, and Noah's wife and *the three wives of his sons* with them entered the ark."


Um...Purl...

So, according to the Bible, 8 people are on the ark: Noah, his wife, their sons and their wives. And the flood wipes out every other person on the planet because the God that gave them free will doesn't like the way they're using that free will.

That means when the flood recedes there are only 8 people on earth. Today there are 7 billion people on the earth. So there was a LOT of incest going on after the flood to get the population up...


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

E P Guinn said:


> Is this really a subject to be discussed here??


Chit chat is general topics.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

knovice knitter said:


> I think she meant Satan.


It seemed like voice to text and autocorrect gone wild. There were several entries of genes and gems.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

SQM said:


> SAUL Alinsky!!!!!!! One of my old favorites when I was studying radical social theory in the early '70s. Mrs. Somma how do you know of him?
> 
> Of course the "Bible Belt" can quote Alinsky...know thy enemy!


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Elsie, I'm sorry your cousin was berated in public.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Dear Joan, I don't think we've met but our views are quite similar. I think the whole gay marriage issue is a red herring to keep us all from addressing important issue.

And Elsie, thank you so much for opening this can of worms. It needs to be addressed. Personally I see the Bible as parables designed to teach lessons to the masses, most of whom were unable to read. Also the content of the stories were colored by the beliefs of the author, and there were many.



JoanAbrams said:


> Good for you Elsie. I don't believe in shying away from controversy just because someone might disagree. Drives my husband nuts. Life needs to be lived to the edge. And as we please as long as we do no harm. For the life of me, I can't understand why a gay marriage harms me in any way.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for posting your views. I'm proud to hear them.



diamondbelle said:


> IMHO - bigotry in any form is an abomination against humanity.
> 
> Unless your cousin's son and his partner were making out or holding hands or hugging in public, how did this so-called preacher even know that they were gay or partners?
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Welcome Chris. So glad to have you as a member of the group.


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## user64822 (Jun 21, 2012)

damemary said:


> Dear Joan, I don't think we've met but our views are quite similar. I think the whole gay marriage issue is a red herring to keep us all from addressing important issue.
> 
> And Elsie, thank you so much for opening this can of worms. It needs to be addressed. Personally I see the Bible as parables designed to teach lessons to the masses, most of whom were unable to read. Also the content of the stories were colored by the beliefs of the author, and there were many.


I agree.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Gerslay said:


> SQM said:
> 
> 
> > SAUL Alinsky!!!!!!! One of my old favorites when I was studying radical social theory in the early '70s. Mrs. Somma how do you know of him?
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for your views Donnie. They are not exactly the same as mine, but I know you as a fine person and member of the group.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you Sherry1. You illustrate a fine way to live.



Sherry1 said:


> I am selective about what I believe. I agree about the translations. So much of organized religion seems like big business to me advancing their agenda.
> I much prefer to believe in my own way and practice kindness ,Charity, compassion and so many of the traits that join us together as humans. I don't believe gay people have a choice. They are born gay. I believe there is room on this planet for all of us, all colors, all faiths and the more we learn about each other, the more we will respect each other. If we continue to be afraid instead of educating ourselves the world will continue to be a mess.just my opinions.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Tell D and L to stay away from Texas, where the GOP saw fit to write a party platform embracing gay conversion therapy as a viable option for those gays who want to change. Why on earth do they still think being gay is a choice and why on earth should it be included in a party platform???
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/05/texas-gop-conversion-therapy_n_5454875.html


 :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree Ozzie. They sound like fine young people.



ozziedee said:


> I have a wonderful gay grandson and I think he is one of the best things that ever happened to this old grandma.he is honest hardworking and very loyal to his partner his partner is also a fine young man.no one can tell me it is any business of anyone but theirs it is their life and how they choose to live it is up to them.
> Ozziedee


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I believe that there is a duty to to not let bigotry stand as truth. They are entitled to their opinions, as I am entitled to mine.



Ms. Tess said:


> Each and every human being is entitled to belief, lifestyle, values, and the right to the pursuit happiness. There will always be those that would inflict their beliefs (or try to) on anyone who they feel need to hear them. It saddens me that in the year 2014 with all the unrest and problems in the world, all that man had to do was throw stones at your cousin and his partner? Very sad indeed. As long as any person finds happiness and love with another, they should be commended for that, not belittled. Years ago after leaving an abusive partner I was approached by a clergyman and told that I was breaking God's laws and should return and "fix this". I replied "When you can show me that until death do us part means that he can beat me to death, then I will not return as I do not believe that to be what the bible meant". I was told that I was evil for interpreting the bible for my own means. Just goes to show you that no matter what the situation, there is always someone that will try and twist your situation to make you look badly. For those that are not as strong, character wise, they will let that remark take root in their own minds and eat away at them. I am happy to say I never did return and have found a loving gentle man who treats me like a queen, and he is king to my queen, so we are very happy and live a good life together. Can anyone honestly ask for more than that? Love, kindness, gentleness, respect, care and tenderness are things that make the world go around. Without those things in your life, you are unhappy and that is no way anyone should have to live. It doesn't matter who is gay, lesbian, bi, blue, green, orange or purple..as long as they are happy and live a good life, blessings to them. I had a co worker make reference to someone whom I worked with that had just "come out". I said, out of where...the rain? the building? the sunshine? She looked at me and said, no stupid, she just admitted that she is openly lesbian. I asked her what difference that could possibly make when working with this gal? She started with the "Well you may encounter others that are uncomfortable working with her"...to which I countered "If she isn't in your bed when you want to sleep, what possible difference could being a lesbian make?" Poor thing didn't have another word to say to me on the subject. I think that sometimes less is better and the less one makes of these things, the better it is all the way around. It annoys me that there are those that want to be so called supporters of alternate life styles, but on the other hand, start stirring trouble when it comes to looking for problems. My grandmother always said, Don't go borrowing trouble" and I agree. If you start looking for problems, you will always find an abundance readily available. If you treat people like you would like them to treat you, problems have a way of working themselves out without adding to the collection. =)


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put.



Confuzzled said:


> This man berating anyone in public in this way is NOT acting in anyway that I consider Christ-like. As to the law of the land, it is, at the very least a breach of the peace.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

gayleH said:


> That is the problem with many homophobes: they are often uneducated. Amazing how a little education opens one's mind, and allows one's heart to open wide too. It is high time we used the brains we were given to think for ourselves, and stop allowing organized religion to dictate our thoughts. The bible is, in fact, a collection of stories passed down through the ages and interpreted by man to suit which ever political leanings of the day that were important to the ruling class. One can find "biblical" stories (such as the story of Noah) in Sumerian myths and legends, far predating the bible or any organized religious thought. However, as I am a firm believer in live and let live, let the homophobes continue to expose themselves as ignorant. That is their right. It also allows me to see clearly where my haters are, without having to dig for them through a cloud of political correctness.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Yes indeed. General Chit Chat accepts all non-knitting related topics. I assume you know what to do if you're not interested?



E P Guinn said:


> Is this really a subject to be discussed here??


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Was this an attempt to get us to do someone's homework? Vague and not our job.



hildy3 said:


> Sorry, too vague. Another opinion? Eye-opener to what?
> Maggie


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Um...Purl...
> 
> So, according to the Bible, 8 people are on the ark: Noah, his wife, their sons and their wives. And the flood wipes out every other person on the planet because the God that gave them free will doesn't like the way they're using that free will.
> 
> That means when the flood recedes there are only 8 people on earth. Today there are 7 billion people on the earth. So there was a LOT of incest going on after the flood to get the population up...


There certainly was a lot of something going on. Is cousin-cousin regarded as incest? Judaism allows it.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Is this another example of why not to take an author's opinions as truth?



knovice knitter said:


> I think she meant Satan.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I have been an active member in our community for quite some time. I think Admin's job is difficult at best. Divergent views don't mean one is right and the other wrong.



hildy3 said:


> Just want to add a thought to this and past and future controversial subjects.
> When KP started in 2011, I seem to remember that discussions about religion and politics were not allowed.
> Now, we are 116,000+ strong and most everything is allowed.
> Also, you have the right to PM Admin and ask that a particular topic be "blocked", if you feel it has gone too long and becomes hurtful or vicious. He reads all PMs and will respond with his take on it.
> ...


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> There certainly was a lot of something going on. Is cousin-cousin regarded as incest? Judaism allows it.


Before they got to the cousin bit, there had to be an awful lot of brother-sister and niece-nephew going on. Then first cousins, which is considered incest by most. And a whole lot of inbreeding for generations.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

The Bible describes Gods selection of Noah in order to preserve mankind. Noah qualified because he was perfect in his generation. This does not mean he was a morally perfect human, but that he was genetically perfect in his lineage. He had perfect human DNA that was not corrupted. That perfection continued down through his descendents for many generations until such a time as the laws of incest needed to be established.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> The Bible describes Gods selection of Noah in order to preserve mankind. Noah qualified because he was perfect in his generation. This does not mean he was a morally perfect human, but that he was genetically perfect in his lineage. He had perfect human DNA that was not corrupted. That perfection continued down through his descendents for many generations until such a time as the laws of incest needed to be reestablished.


Doesn't matter how "perfect" your DNA is--inbreeding will quickly corrupt it. Unless you're saying that your God suddenly decided that his creations no longer needed the "protection" of said perfection and, after letting them commit incest & inbreed, and instituted incest taboos. I think breaking that habit would be almost impossible as it had been custom. It doesn't make sense, but then that is par for the course.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Doesn't matter how "perfect" your DNA is--inbreeding will quickly corrupt it. Unless you're saying that your God suddenly decided that his creations no longer needed the "protection" of said perfection and, after letting them commit incest & inbreed, and instituted incest taboos. I think breaking that habit would be almost impossible as it had been custom. It doesn't make sense, but then that is par for the course.


I said much that you did. We don't know how quickly the corruption occurred but we do know that it did thus the prohibition against incest that eventually came about. Makes sense to me!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Before they got to the cousin bit, there had to be an awful lot of brother-sister and niece-nephew going on. Then first cousins, which is considered incest by most. And a whole lot of inbreeding for generations.


I just assumed that since Noah's sons had brought their wives along, Noah would have grandchildren from them. In the next generation there would have been plenty of first cousins.

Okay, it's not really worth all this discussion.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> The Bible describes Gods selection of Noah in order to preserve mankind. Noah qualified because he was perfect in his generation. This does not mean he was a morally perfect human, but that he was genetically perfect in his lineage. He had perfect human DNA that was not corrupted. That perfection continued down through his descendents for many generations until such a time as the laws of incest needed to be established.


Which version does this DNA talk come from?


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> Before they got to the cousin bit, there had to be an awful lot of brother-sister and niece-nephew going on. Then first cousins, which is considered incest by most. And a whole lot of inbreeding for generations.


sumpleby
No doubt about it.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> The Bible describes Gods selection of Noah in order to preserve mankind. Noah qualified because he was perfect in his generation. This does not mean he was a morally perfect human, but that he was genetically perfect in his lineage. He had perfect human DNA that was not corrupted. That perfection continued down through his descendents for many generations until such a time as the laws of incest needed to be established.


Gerslay
Oh Boy, another Fairy Tale. That DNA remark is the Zenith of nuttiness. Getting amazed over and over again. Keep it up folks, laughter is healthy.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Which version does this DNA talk come from?


In all versions and in modern science "generation" refers to the act of producing offspring...biogenesis...the passing on of one's DNA.

To be 'perfect in one's generation' clearly means to pass on perfect DNA.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

What is perfect DNA? Example of a person with perfect DNA please.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> In all versions and in modern science "generation" refers to the act of producing offspring...biogenesis...the passing on of one's DNA.
> 
> To be 'perfect in one's generation' clearly means to pass on perfect DNA.


Oh, clearly.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Oh, clearly.


...and your version would be...?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> What is perfect DNA? Example of a person with perfect DNA please.


(Waving hand) me! me!
(Ha)


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> ...and your version would be...?


I've never seen any version that mentioned DNA, so I would have none.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> (Waving hand) me! me!
> (Ha)


Love ya today, Ol' Al.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> (Waving hand) me! me!
> (Ha)


And the winner is alcameron!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> And the winner is alcameron!


Indeed. But I forgot the point of the whole DNA conversation in regards to the gay lifestyle. Summary is in order.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Face it, besides Noah, there is a lot of incest in the Bible. So, really, if one is of the group that believes & follows everything in the Bible, there is no room for throwing stones at homosexuals. And hopefully no extremists are following the incestuous bits in their own lives....


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> No, the Bible doesn't mention Lilith at all.
> 
> Isaiah 34:14
> King James Version (KJV)
> ...


Of. Course she is not mentioned, she used to THINK and the curch don't **** this in women, but she is real. A women with her own mind, no demon at all


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Indeed. But I forgot the point of the whole DNA conversation in regards to the gay lifestyle. Summary is in order.


From gay we went to incest, then back to Adam and Eve, then to Noah, who apparently had perfect DNA. Okay?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> Of. Course she is not mentioned, she used to THINK and the curch don't **** this in women, but she is real. A women with her own mind, no demon at all


I hope some of this was typos.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I hope some of this was typos.


Probably was. Touch typing without looking can sometimes make things interesting.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Probably was. Touch typing without looking can sometimes make things interesting.


I know. I type in tongues, usually Finnish.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> What is perfect DNA? Example of a person with perfect DNA please.


SQM
I like to be very pompous and lay claim to it. Who can proof otherwise. This is as good as all the other stuff some claim as reality.


----------



## ruth Roxanne (Mar 18, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I hope you'll also come up with the instructions of ALEC to state legislatures, the suggestions of Frank Luntz on how to cause trouble while pretending to be so good, and Karl Rove's history of forging documents and carrying out push polls.
> 
> Come to think of it, other than having been written by Saul Alinsky (a name that seems to send shivers down your spine), what you've posted looks exactly like Frank Luntz's ideas.


Actually, it looks to me that both political extremes use these tactics. Those on here complaining about Fundamentalists and those who are writing their opinions. Making fun of or openly criticizing one poster, IMHO, does not make your argument any stronger. 
I have been around all kinds of people where I used to work. There are good and not so nice people in every segment of society. Accepting them as they are and sharing my thoughts if they asked is how I got along with almost everyone. If you want to know about my religious beliefs, ask. If not, I will not press them on you. You are free to do so with your beliefs and opinions, too. 
I do not think that legislation is going to change anyone's sexual orientation any more than it change change my unusually large bone structure. Homosexuality is not an illness and neither is my basic body build. I have often felt pressured because media is constantly pushing diets and only have bony stick figures as anchors on TV shows. However, they often have hidden illnesses that they are ashamed of such as alcoholism or mental illness. Recently one skinny woman on a morning talk show learned that she had breast cancer when she thought she was just going to show how a mammogram is done. I personally knew 12 women in a very small town who had and died of breast cancer even though they were thin and tried to be healthy. Their size did not affect the outcome, yet I continue to see articles saying that women need to watch their weight. A group insurance company insisted that women should have a waist measurement less than a certain number that was not feasible given my build. 
So, my answer about all of this is: Don't stress about it! Stress only makes things worse. Relax and let others live how they choose. But if they want to know how I deal with all the crap going an around the world, I will share how I manage to survive. It works for me so don't jeer at my beliefs.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I hope some of this was typos.


Ha Ha Laugh. Ha Ha Laugh. Ha Ha Laugh.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> SQM
> I like to be very pompous and lay claim to it. Who can proof otherwise. This is as good as all the other stuff some claim as reality.


Okay. We have two now who claim to have perfect DNA. Is there a third?


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> Okay. We have two now who claim to have perfect DNA. Is there a third?


Like Mary Poppins, I am practically perfect in every way. ;-)


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Like Mary Poppins, I am practically perfect in every way. ;-)


Just a durn minute, here! I was first!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Just a durn minute, here! I was first!


Ladies Please. Sum said she had practically perfect genes which is great on one hand, but not sufficient for the other.

So our Perfect DNA contest is still going - with Al and PP in first and second, respectively.

I still require a definition of Perfect DNA. We all understand what Perfect Jeans are, the ones that fit a couple of years ago, but DNA and DNA that is mentioned in the Bible????? Am I getting that straight?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> Ladies Please. Sum said she had practically perfect genes which is great on one hand, but not sufficient for the other.
> 
> So our Perfect DNA contest is still going - with Al and PP in first and second, respectively.
> 
> I still require a definition of Perfect DNA. We all understand what Perfect Jeans are, the ones that fit a couple of years ago, but DNA and DNA that is mentioned in the Bible????? Am I getting that straight?


This came from Huck, 
I like to be very pompous and lay claim to it. Who can proof otherwise. This is as good as all the other stuff some claim as reality.
So many perfect specimens!


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

There really is no such thing as perfect DNA. Everyone carries hundreds of mutated (mostly harmless) or even inactive genes.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

alcameron said:


> Just a durn minute, here! I was first!


alcameron
you are welcome to be first. I am proud to walk behind you.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ruth Roxanne said:


> Actually, it looks to me that both political extremes use these tactics. Those on here complaining about Fundamentalists and those who are writing their opinions. Making fun of or openly criticizing one poster, IMHO, does not make your argument any stronger.
> I have been around all kinds of people where I used to work. There are good and not so nice people in every segment of society. Accepting them as they are and sharing my thoughts if they asked is how I got along with almost everyone. If you want to know about my religious beliefs, ask. If not, I will not press them on you. You are free to do so with your beliefs and opinions, too.
> I do not think that legislation is going to change anyone's sexual orientation any more than it change change my unusually large bone structure. Homosexuality is not an illness and neither is my basic body build. I have often felt pressured because media is constantly pushing diets and only have bony stick figures as anchors on TV shows. However, they often have hidden illnesses that they are ashamed of such as alcoholism or mental illness. Recently one skinny woman on a morning talk show learned that she had breast cancer when she thought she was just going to show how a mammogram is done. I personally knew 12 women in a very small town who had and died of breast cancer even though they were thin and tried to be healthy. Their size did not affect the outcome, yet I continue to see articles saying that women need to watch their weight. A group insurance company insisted that women should have a waist measurement less than a certain number that was not feasible given my build.
> So, my answer about all of this is: Don't stress about it! Stress only makes things worse. Relax and let others live how they choose. But if they want to know how I deal with all the crap going an around the world, I will share how I manage to survive. It works for me so don't jeer at my beliefs.


You sound really reasonable to me. I see nothing to jeer at. My point was that all those supposedly leftist rules were used as much by the right, which was your first point, too.

Truthfully, I couldn't see why that particular set of "rules" was being posted here. It didn't seem to have anything at all to do with the subject.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Ladies Please. Sum said she had practically perfect genes which is great on one hand, but not sufficient for the other.
> 
> So our Perfect DNA contest is still going - with Al and PP in first and second, respectively.
> 
> I still require a definition of Perfect DNA. We all understand what Perfect Jeans are, the ones that fit a couple of years ago, but DNA and DNA that is mentioned in the Bible????? Am I getting that straight?


Waitaminnit! How did I get into this? My DNA is so perfect that I don't have to compete to prove it. My grammar not so much.


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I know. I type in tongues, usually Finnish.


Or have English as 4 language . In how many languages are you able to write?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> Or have English as 4 language . In how many languages are you able to write?


Not many. I can't use that as an excuse. But if I put my fingers on the wrong keys, I can type in many languages. I just can't read what I've written.


----------



## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Isn't he one of the bodies that Satan uses to walk among men?
> 
> Really, he's one proof that the current US administration is at least socialist, if not communist. When the Repubs follow the same course of action, that's only proof that it's the right one.


Cripes.


----------



## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> What is perfect DNA? Example of a person with perfect DNA please.


And to throw in a bit of science, humans and chimpanzees have 96% same DNA.

The Bible is not science, nor history for that matter. It is a book of parables.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Colorado knits said:


> And to throw in a bit of science, humans and chimpanzees have 96% same DNA.
> 
> The Bible is not science, nor history for that matter. It is a book of parables.


And not even always that. Sometimes it's fairy tales.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Colorado knits said:


> Cripes.


Maybe I should have put up a sarcasm alert. I hope you didn't take me seriously.


----------



## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Maybe I should have put up a sarcasm alert. I hope you didn't take me seriously.


It is fairy tales (and I got the sarcasm right away); it is a way to control people.

I will go with science.


----------



## Chezl (Mar 12, 2012)

Colorado knits said:


> And to throw in a bit of science, humans and chimpanzees have 96% same DNA.
> 
> The Bible is not science, nor history for that matter. It is a book of parables.


Talking about chimps, we are supposed to have evolved from them. Which ones were Adam and Eve?


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Colorado knits said:


> And to throw in a bit of science, humans and chimpanzees have 96% same DNA.
> 
> The Bible is not science, nor history for that matter. It is a book of parables.


Colorado knits
I see it as Fairy Tales into which anyone can spin their own versions of weird thoughts. And weird we get a constant diet of around here. The mind is a wondrous thing. Makes one wonder what sort of dreams some folks must have when in their waking hours they are in another world already.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Chezl said:


> Talking about chimps, we are supposed to have evolved from them. Which ones were Adam and Eve?


Chezl
Remember I said "Fairy Tales", and those some like better than reality (Science in this case).


----------



## Llavaia (Oct 14, 2013)

Who in God's name takes the bible literally? It was written by MAN..I believe in God and I am a practicing catholic but I look to my church to help me lead a godly life...that includes treating people how I would like to be treated.. Helping others..and being kind and respectful to all. God made us all including our gay brothers and sisters.. God does not make mistakes..


----------



## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Elsie Shufflebottom said:


> Heard from my cousin's son today that he and his partner were outside the station when a man with a megaphone was nearby giving a sermon to anyone who would listen. He noticed D and L and started berating them...this still through the megaphone, telling them that God meant it to be Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. (By the way, that phrase is old hat and boring).
> D said he has no problem with people voicing their opinions, but he and L were being victimised and insulted, an entirely different thing.
> 
> I know there are many people on here who believe that The Holy Bible is absolutely true, and that is their right.
> ...


Elsie,

This thread is just like any conversation; it changes focus and topic. Certainly I am part of that, but that is part of any normal conversation.

I want to say how sad that your nephew and partner were treated so shabbily.

I find it sad to hear that people think homosexuality is a sin; I know far too many people who think we have a choice of our sexuality. I never made a choice to be heterosexual. Neither did homosexuals. Neither did any of you make a choice. Your own biology determined that for you.

The level of bigotry, racism, hatred in our world is astounding.


----------



## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Llavaia said:


> Who in God's name takes the bible literally? It was written by MAN..I believe in God and I am a practicing catholic but I look to my church to help me lead a godly life...that includes treating people how I would like to be treated.. Helping others..and being kind and respectful to all. God made us all including our gay brothers and sisters.. God does not make mistakes..


.... written by man, for man. It certainly was not written for women.


----------



## Llavaia (Oct 14, 2013)

GayleH.....you are a delight and very bright...hi my name is Luci and I want emeralds for my 32 gems..


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Colorado knits said:


> .... written by man, for man. It certainly was not written for women.


But there's a theory that part of it was written by a woman.


----------



## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Thank you.


EveMCooke said:


> That comment is not a slam.


----------



## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Big news. Friday, a judge overturned gay marriages in Wisconsin. I am thrilled for all those who have been waiting so long for equality. Congrats to all who married over the weekend and thank you for fighting so hard.


Poor Purl said:


> They're not all in the Bible Belt - Joeysomma is in Wisconsin; I think Yarnie is, too. And there are plenty of people in the so-called Bible Belt who are open and accepting of others' life choices.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> The Bible is the inspired word of God. I do believe in its truth literally in its original language. It needs to be read, re read and studied to understand its meaning. You cannot take a verse or two out of context and say this is what it says.


joeysomma
what was the original language? BTW if I need to read something 3x it gives me a hint that something is not right. I have no problem with your believing, however stop trying preaching to others that they are on the wrong track. Believe me, we are fine, very fine. You do with the good book what you want to and leave us to choose as we like.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knovice knitter said:


> Big news. Friday, a judge overturned gay marriages in Wisconsin. I am thrilled for all those who have been waiting so long for equality. Congrats to all who married over the weekend and thank you for fighting so hard.


knovice knitter
and we will continue to fight until all States recognize Gay Marriages.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Chezl said:


> Talking about chimps, we are supposed to have evolved from them. Which ones were Adam and Eve?


No, not from chimps. We evolved from a separate hominid line which separated away from the great apes quite early on.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The Bible is the inspired word of God. I do believe in its truth literally in its original language. It needs to be read, re read and studied to understand its meaning. You cannot take a verse or two out of context and say this is what it says.


Are you able to read it in its original language?


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> The Bible is the inspired word of God. I do believe in its truth literally in its original language. It needs to be read, re read and studied to understand its meaning. You cannot take a verse or two out of context and say this is what it says.


Oh, most of its stories are pretty straightforward. In any case, the mythology found in the Bible is no more literally true than those of the Greeks, Romans, Egyptian, etc. etc. etc., are. The inspired word of Zeus or Horus, anyone? I hear tell the Oracle of Delphi was pretty good, too.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> Big news. Friday, a judge overturned gay marriages in Wisconsin. I am thrilled for all those who have been waiting so long for equality. Congrats to all who married over the weekend and thank you for fighting so hard.


Between this and the trouble your governor seems to be in, maybe Wisconsin is coming back to its senses.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Colorado knits said:


> And to throw in a bit of science, humans and chimpanzees have 96% same DNA.
> 
> The Bible is not science, nor history for that matter. It is a book of parables.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The is a large segment of our society who take the Bible literally. Sad but true. IMHO it hasn't made the world a better place.



Llavaia said:


> Who in God's name takes the bible literally? It was written by MAN..I believe in God and I am a practicing catholic but I look to my church to help me lead a godly life...that includes treating people how I would like to be treated.. Helping others..and being kind and respectful to all. God made us all including our gay brothers and sisters.. God does not make mistakes..


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Colorado knits said:


> Elsie,
> 
> This thread is just like any conversation; it changes focus and topic. Certainly I am part of that, but that is part of any normal conversation.
> 
> ...


And we lose our humanity as a people when we succumb to bigotry, racism and hatred. IMHO


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Colorado knits said:


> .... written by man, for man. It certainly was not written for women.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> joeysomma
> what was the original language? BTW if I need to read something 3x it gives me a hint that something is not right. I have no problem with your believing, however stop trying preaching to others that they are on the wrong track. Believe me, we are fine, very fine. You do with the good book what you want to and leave us to choose as we like.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> joeysomma
> what was the original language? BTW if I need to read something 3x it gives me a hint that something is not right. I have no problem with your believing, however stop trying preaching to others that they are on the wrong track. Believe me, we are fine, very fine. You do with the good book what you want to and leave us to choose as we like.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I agree. We are fine. We all need to pursue our own chosen path. We are all different and therefore choose different paths.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> No, not from chimps. We evolved from a separate hominid line which separated away from the great apes quite early on.


So true but often misunderstood. We descended from a common ancestor but we ended up on different branches of the tree of life very early on. Palaeontology is a fascinating and absorbing field of study.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I agree. We are fine. We all need to pursue our own chosen path. We are all different and therefore choose different paths.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: We are a multitude though. I've come to realize that there are more thinkers than non-thinkers in the group.


----------



## user64822 (Jun 21, 2012)

Colorado knits said:


> Elsie,
> 
> This thread is just like any conversation; it changes focus and topic. Certainly I am part of that, but that is part of any normal conversation.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I'm enjoying the twists and turns. I did know when I posted this that there would be some very strong opinions. About D and L. D's mother is a very devout Mormon. She said this :
" As you know D, I am a Christian and follow the teachings of the Bible However I am your mum and as such I beleive God gave me a wonderful son who happens to be gay and has a partner who I would be proud to call my own son. God in turn expects me to love all my children unconditionally regardless of their chosen life style and if I had been with you he would have been told God is the only judge that matters."


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Colorado knits said:


> Elsie,
> The level of bigotry, racism, hatred in our world is astounding.


I agree.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> And not even always that. Sometimes it's fairy tales.


And a poorly edited one at that. What editor would allow Numbers in any publication?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Llavaia said:


> Who in God's name takes the bible literally? It was written by MAN..I believe in God and I am a practicing catholic but I look to my church to help me lead a godly life...that includes treating people how I would like to be treated.. Helping others..and being kind and respectful to all. God made us all including our gay brothers and sisters.. God does not make mistakes..


She made a mistake with Hitler and mosquitoes.


----------



## ruth Roxanne (Mar 18, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You sound really reasonable to me. I see nothing to jeer at. My point was that all those supposedly leftist rules were used as much by the right, which was your first point, too.
> 
> Truthfully, I couldn't see why that particular set of "rules" was being posted here. It didn't seem to have anything at all to do with the subject.


Thanks! I didn't see what it had to do with the topic either, so I thought I would throw in my two cents worth. 
There seems to be a lot of jeering at a couple other posters here. While it is good for friends to have fun together, it really excludes those with different opinions. That is what I was referring to.


----------



## user64822 (Jun 21, 2012)

SQM said:


> She made a mistake with Hitler and mosquitoes.


Hahaha!


----------



## ruth Roxanne (Mar 18, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> No, not from chimps. We evolved from a separate hominid line which separated away from the great apes quite early on.


But recently (if you call last winter recent) there was a report that some people today have genes in common with Neanderthals. They were considered a separate species, so if they interbred was that bestiality? Ewww? (tongue in cheek)


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

We will never agree so why bother.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

ruth Roxanne said:


> But recently (if you call last winter recent) there was a report that some people today have genes in common with Neanderthals. They were considered a separate species, so if they interbred was that bestiality? Ewww? (tongue in cheek)


Neanderthals have always received a bum rap from some scientists, but now there is a more enlightened approach. I think you are referring to this study below, and I only post part.

People of European and Asian descent today retain Neanderthal DNA that may affect their hair, skin, fertility, predisposition to certain diseases and possibly other characteristics, a new study in the journal Nature suggests.
The genetic material inherited from Neanderthals combined with that of humans when the two species interbred 40,000 to 80,000 years ago, the study holds. The research further supports that indigenous Africans possess little or no Neanderthal DNA because their ancestors did not breed with Neanderthals, which lived in Europe and Asia.
It now appears that mating between the two species was much more prevalent than was previously suspected

This is becoming a fascinating area of study. Did you know that Neanderthals buried their dead? They also had large brains. They were thought to be bumbling, stumbling, stupid creatures, but recent studies have revealed that this is not the case. I have always been fascinated with Neanderthals, even way back in school in the 50s. I read way back then that they buried their dead. I also read way back then if a Neanderthal was dressed in today's clothes he would not raise a second look in a busy, cosmopolitan city.

Yes, they were considered a separate, prehuman species but they were not considered animals, therefore I am at a loss to understand your comment "_They were considered a separate species, so if they interbred was that bestiality? Ewww? (tongue in cheek)_". Hardly bestiality.

It has also been suggested that the DNA from the Neanderthals is missing in certain areas that have been the subject of study in the past because the Neanderthal DNA would not have been beneficial, in fact it could have had the reverse effect. Because of this negative effect the Neanderthal DNA would have been bred out in suceeding generations.

There is a lot of information on the web on this subject.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> And a poorly edited one at that. What editor would allow Numbers in any publication?


It's Leviticus that gets me, like a long written out pattern for a huge afghan with a separate instruction for each stitch. And in the end you're not going to like how it looks anyway.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> She made a mistake with Hitler and mosquitoes.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ruth Roxanne said:


> Thanks! I didn't see what it had to do with the topic either, so I thought I would throw in my two cents worth.
> There seems to be a lot of jeering at a couple other posters here. While it is good for friends to have fun together, it really excludes those with different opinions. That is what I was referring to.


The topic as it was originally brought up was bound to have some argument, though I was surprised to see how little there has been. Your two cents are worth no less than mine or anyone else's. I guess ganging up is not fair play.

Your signature caught my attention: Roxanne [not Ruth, never went by my first name ] My sister was named Minnie Ruth. In her case, the Ruth part was the only usable one.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> True Marriage is ordained by God. The so called "homosexual marriage" has been put in place by the state. They can never be equal.


In your opinion.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It's Leviticus that gets me, like a long written out pattern for a huge afghan with a separate instruction for each stitch. And in the end you're not going to like how it looks anyway.


Poor Purl
that is the outcome when formal education is missing. I am so proud of you that you seem to understand most of the other things written, I still don't. Little makes any sense to me. You know, the Bible keeps folks so busy that they have no time left to broaden their knowledge. What a waste of Life.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

SQM said:


> Okay. We have two now who claim to have perfect DNA. Is there a third?


NOT guilty, darn it! I mean, knit it!

:twisted: :twisted:


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

SQM said:


> Ladies Please. Sum said she had practically perfect genes which is great on one hand, but not sufficient for the other.
> 
> So our Perfect DNA contest is still going - with Al and PP in first and second, respectively.
> 
> I still require a definition of Perfect DNA. We all understand what Perfect Jeans are, the ones that fit a couple of years ago, but DNA and DNA that is mentioned in the Bible????? Am I getting that straight?


so you're saying that you are straight??

:hunf:


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> Or have English as 4 language . In how many languages are you able to write?


I can, and often do(as proclaimed by some) write in gibberish. Very easy to learn, in fact, it was my first language.

:?


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Chezl said:


> Talking about chimps, we are supposed to have evolved from them. Which ones were Adam and Eve?


Silly--Adam had the baseball cap and Eve had the big pink bow.

;-)


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

SQM said:


> She made a mistake with Hitler and mosquitoes.


How about Phyllis Schlafly? Nah, a minor goof.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Beautiful. That's what love is all about. No wonder he's such a fine person.



Elsie Shufflebottom said:


> Thank you. I'm enjoying the twists and turns. I did know when I posted this that there would be some very strong opinions. About D and L. D's mother is a very devout Mormon. She said this :
> " As you know D, I am a Christian and follow the teachings of the Bible However I am your mum and as such I beleive God gave me a wonderful son who happens to be gay and has a partner who I would be proud to call my own son. God in turn expects me to love all my children unconditionally regardless of their chosen life style and if I had been with you he would have been told God is the only judge that matters."


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> She made a mistake with Hitler and mosquitoes.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

maysmom said:


> so you're saying that you are straight??
> 
> :hunf:


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: We have another winner.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

maysmom said:


> I can, and often do(as proclaimed by some) write in gibberish. Very easy to learn, in fact, it was my first language.
> 
> :?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: You've had your coffee this morning.


----------



## Llavaia (Oct 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> She made a mistake with Hitler and mosquitoes.


Can't disagree...and quite possibly the placement of men's brains...(just a joke..kind of)


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Men have brains? Oh. There.



Llavaia said:


> Can't disagree...and quite possibly the placement of men's brains...(just a joke..kind of)


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Poor Purl
> that is the outcome when formal education is missing. I am so proud of you that you seem to understand most of the other things written, I still don't. Little makes any sense to me. You know, the Bible keeps folks so busy that they have no time left to broaden their knowledge. What a waste of Life.


I don't have to understand it. I just review it.

I do know a lot of people who've wasted their lives on this study, Huck.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: You've had your coffee this morning.


Maysmom has had some kind of liquid refreshment this morning, that's for sure.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Llavaia said:


> Can't disagree...and quite possibly the placement of men's brains...(just a joke..kind of)


Frankly, I wonder about the decision to leave men's internal organs outside.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Convenient to rearrange?



Poor Purl said:


> Frankly, I wonder about the decision to leave men's internal organs outside.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Convenient to rearrange?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Nocturnal1961 (May 12, 2012)

In the bible brothers a sisters did marry. It wasn't till after Moses when God said not to.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> We will never agree so why bother.


Why bother? It is a discussion, everyone (or most) have opinions, I am willing to listen to those opinions, apparently you are not. It is a shame as that means you are unable to acknowledge that others have an opinion different than yours. Open your mind, you might not agree but you may very well learn something.


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## ellasnan (Mar 23, 2013)

We were told by a Methodist minister, years ago, to disregard the old testament, that is was just symbolic.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

I owe Nittinneedles an apology. I misread one of her comments and thought she had said something she did not say, 

I am very sorry if I have embarrassed her in any way. 

I also apologise to her if anyone else thought I was attacking her because of the comments I made. 

The confusion was entirely my fault. I must be more careful when I am reading and endeavour to fully understand what has been posted.

Nittinneedles, please forgive me.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

ellasnan said:


> We were told by a Methodist minister, years ago, to disregard the old testament, that is was just symbolic.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Works for me.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> ellasnan said:
> 
> 
> > We were told by a Methodist minister, years ago, to disregard the old testament, that is was just symbolic.
> ...


We were told by a rabbi to disregard the new testament, that it was just fiction.


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

bell said:


> My friend I know where you are going but there is no prove of incest in the bible. Genes says that Adam was the first man made in GOD's ingane, That is to say he was made up of three parts, flesh, soul and sprit. Also if you remeber that also in Genes it tells of God casting Satan down first. Adam and Eve were made after that. In fact to tell the truth humans were created after Santa changed God that if HE was not controlling humans thought and life that they would turn
> turn way from him. SO you could said that the human race was a test case. I do not believe in man marring man nor female marring female for two resons: I do not belive in it but also if they do so world wide Man kind would die off due
> to fact of one of the two sexs of human would have die off. And yes doctors may be able one day to make a baby in a test tube, but where would they get the 32 gems that make a human, You know the part that make you one of a kind. So no matter what you thank there could come a time when where could be only one sex. Please don't say that would never happen because it could. Saying all that all I ask from is live life as you wish just don,t pass it on me. Bell
> P.S.
> ...


My partner of 20 years and I were finally able to get legally married last September and so far all my staright married friends are still married and babies are still being born. The world has not come to an end.
There will always be straight people to carry on mankind. A person does not just wake up one day and say 'I think I will be gay, just like I will not wake up one day and say I think I will be straight.
So rest assured the human race will continue on.


----------



## nittineedles (Apr 14, 2011)

ellasnan said:


> We were told by a Methodist minister, years ago, to disregard the old testament, that is was just symbolic.





Poor Purl said:


> We were told by a rabbi to disregard the new testament, that it was just fiction.


I must be half Methodist and half Jewish. ;-)


----------



## nittineedles (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I owe Nittinneedles an apology. I misread one of her comments and thought she had said something she did not say, I am very sorry if I have embarrassed her in any way.
> I also apologise to her if anyone else thought I was attacking her because of the comments I made.
> The confusion was entirely my fault. I must be more careful when I am reading and endeavour to fully understand what has been posted.
> Nittinneedles, please forgive me.


WOW! That's the nicest apology I've ever had. Of course you're forgiven. :-D


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

nittineedles said:


> I must be half Methodist and half Jewish. ;-)


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

brucew said:


> My partner of 20 years and I were finally able to get legally married last September and so far all my staright married friends are still married and babies are still being born. The world has not come to an end.
> There will always be straight people to carry on mankind. A person does not just wake up one day and say 'I think I will be gay, just like I will not wake up one day and say I think I will be straight.
> So rest assured the human race will continue on.


Congratulations on being able to marry (finally). Our niece in Holland and her partner were able to marry in 2009 (the Netherlands has had marriage equality since 2002). In May of last year they had a little boy. Overwhelming acceptance in a country that actually has a state religion...a very Calvinist state religion in fact.

I just hope this country doesn't regress to the point where, when the time comes that my granddaughter wants to make a commitment to another person, possibly the girl she's dating now, that she will be allowed to do so.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> We were told by a rabbi to disregard the new testament, that it was just fiction.


 :thumbup:  :lol:


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

ruth Roxanne said:


> But recently (if you call last winter recent) there was a report that some people today have genes in common with Neanderthals. They were considered a separate species, so if they interbred was that bestiality? Ewww? (tongue in cheek)


Neanderthal were a concurrent & close species to our own, in the same family, so it is not surprising that interbreeding could occur. Just as it is theoretically possible for the great apes to interbreed if given the chance (to be clear, humans aren't included in this), just as monkey species can and do.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Maysmom has had some kind of liquid refreshment this morning, that's for sure.


Indeed! A fully-caffeinated Diet cherry Pepsi does wonders. (Along with abstaining from KP for a few days, lol.)


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

bell said:


> My friend I know where you are going but there is no prove of incest in the bible. Genes says that Adam was the first man made in GOD's ingane, That is to say he was made up of three parts, flesh, soul and sprit. Also if you remeber that also in Genes it tells of God casting Satan down first. Adam and Eve were made after that. In fact to tell the truth humans were created after Santa changed God that if HE was not controlling humans thought and life that they would turn
> turn way from him. SO you could said that the human race was a test case. I do not believe in man marring man nor female marring female for two resons: I do not belive in it but also if they do so world wide Man kind would die off due
> to fact of one of the two sexs of human would have die off. And yes doctors may be able one day to make a baby in a test tube, but where would they get the 32 gems that make a human, You know the part that make you one of a kind. So no matter what you thank there could come a time when where could be only one sex. Please don't say that would never happen because it could. Saying all that all I ask from is live life as you wish just don,t pass it on me. Bell
> P.S.
> ...


Okay, Bell, how about the part of Lot's daughters getting him inebriated enough to impregnate them?

:evil:


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Okay, Bell, how about the part of Lot's daughters getting him inebriated enough to impregnate them?
> 
> :evil:


I still want to know (from past experiences) how a man so drunk he doesn't recognize his daughters can even "perform".


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> I still want to know (from past experiences) how a man so drunk he doesn't recognize his daughters can even "perform".


Ponder over more important stuff. Why isn't the Bible X-rated? I liked few of the stories when I read it.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> Ponder over more important stuff. Why isn't the Bible X-rated? I liked few of the stories when I read it.


Well, we have a book store here that has it shelved in what I consider an appropriate place...in with the science fiction and fantasy.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Well, we have a book store here that has it shelved in what I consider an appropriate place...in with the science fiction and fantasy.


Really? They're blatant enough to so casually disrespect the Bible in such a way? Tell me, do they do the same with the Koran, with the writings of the Buddha?

I doubt it. Such hypocrisy!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Well, we have a book store here that has it shelved in what I consider an appropriate place...in with the science fiction and fantasy.


Kiss Kiss Kiss. Sending tons of Kisses for such a great post.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Really? They're blatant enough to so casually disrespect the Bible in such a way? Tell me, do they do the same with the Koran, with the writings of the Buddha?
> 
> I doubt it. Such hypocrisy!


Yes, as a matter of fact they do. They put all fantasy where it belongs.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Yes, as a matter of fact they do. They put all fantasy where it belongs.


I don't believe you!


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Really? They're blatant enough to so casually disrespect the Bible in such a way? Tell me, do they do the same with the Koran, with the writings of the Buddha?
> 
> I doubt it. Such hypocrisy!


As a Buddhist it really does not bother me where they shelve the Tripitaka, just as long as they know where to direct someone who is looking for a copy.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> I don't believe you!


Believe what you want. Some people grew out of needing invisible playmates long ago.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Believe what you want. Some people grew out of needing invisible playmates long ago.


You make me laugh.

Where is High Dungeon or the name of the town you live in?


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

brucew said:


> My partner of 20 years and I were finally able to get legally married last September and so far all my staright married friends are still married and babies are still being born. The world has not come to an end.
> There will always be straight people to carry on mankind. A person does not just wake up one day and say 'I think I will be gay, just like I will not wake up one day and say I think I will be straight.
> So rest assured the human race will continue on.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: You go Bruce!!! So glad you are happy


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Believe what you want. Some people grew out of needing invisible playmates long ago.


It's sad to see the ego at work in people who cannot guarantee their next breath.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> You make me laugh.
> 
> Where is High Dungeon or the name of the town you live in?


High DuDgeon is a state of mind. I live near Charleston.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> High DuDgeon is a state of mind. I live near Charleston.


And you are precious - a progressive-minded Southerner. Are you a transplant?


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> It's sad to see the ego at work in people who cannot guarantee their next breath.


That makes absolutely no sense. You can't either.

You only get one go round. There's nothing after the end, no matter how much you don't want to admit that. And I have no problem with it. It would be nice to think there's more but there's absolutely no evidence, your holy book not withstanding.

I know your next statement will be to condemn me to an eternity in hell but that doesn't bother me either since I know it's only what you hope and not what will happen.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> And you are precious - a progressive-minded Southerner. Are you a transplant?


Very much so. Born and raised in PA. People tend to think I'm joking when I tell them about the town having 2 stop lights and 2 and a half cops. They get even more skeptical when I let them know that my mother was born in Mars and her first husband was named Frankenstein. (and yes, you can look up the records if you're so inclined)

I ended up in SC for winter quarters after my first year out on the road with a carnival. Kept coming back. Met my Dutch husband here and have been here solid for over 40 years now.

I have to admit to missing the road at times, though.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Believe what you want. Some people grew out of needing invisible playmates long ago.


Be careful. The Bible is like a sacred cow to some.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Very much so. Born and raised in PA. People tend to think I'm joking when I tell them about the town having 2 stop lights and 2 and a half cops. They get even more skeptical when I let them know that my mother was born in Mars and her first husband was named Frankenstein. (and yes, you can look up the records if you're so inclined)
> 
> I ended up in SC for winter quarters after my first year out on the road with a carnival. Kept coming back. Met my Dutch husband here and have been here solid for over 40 years now.
> 
> I have to admit to missing the road at times, though.


I cannot believe the part about the carnival. No one is with the carnival. That is only in '50s musicals. If you were in the carnival, what did you do?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Very much so. Born and raised in PA. People tend to think I'm joking when I tell them about the town having 2 stop lights and 2 and a half cops. They get even more skeptical when I let them know that my mother was born in Mars and her first husband was named Frankenstein. (and yes, you can look up the records if you're so inclined)
> 
> I ended up in SC for winter quarters after my first year out on the road with a carnival. Kept coming back. Met my Dutch husband here and have been here solid for over 40 years now.
> 
> I have to admit to missing the road at times, though.


2 stop lights and 2-1/2 cops, pretty common. Mom born in Mars, husband Frankenstein, not common but believable. But you've really been on the road with a carnival??? Wow!! And a Dutch husband might be nice, too (as long as he's not a Dutch uncle).


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## JoanAbrams (Jan 19, 2014)

Elsie: see what you started? We are all getting to know so much more about each other. It's great!


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Be careful. The Bible is like a sacred cow to some.


Yeah. And I just love beef stew. :twisted:


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> I cannot believe the part about the carnival. No one is with the carnival. That is only in '50s musicals. If you were in the carnival, what did you do?


Stood for a knife thrower, worked blade box and electric chair, handled snakes, made costumes. If no one is with the carnival, how do you still have carnivals? Although, I do have to admit that carnivals today are terribly boring compared to what they were before side shows, etc. disappeared.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> What if you are wrong, and there is a hereafter?


Then I'm wrong. That doesn't bother me, either.


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## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

No one -- or very few -- of us who are here alive now can say for sure what happens after death, just as they cannot prove objectively where the world came from or whether there is a God. These are matters of personal belief and faith. 

Discussion of course is fine if it doesn't become counterproductive by degenerating into frustration and disappointment. 

Many of us find it more productive and positive to investigate for ourselves how we can actually become better, wiser, and more focused and have an accurate view, so far as we can, of the realities of life.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> 2 stop lights and 2-1/2 cops, pretty common. Mom born in Mars, husband Frankenstein, not common but believable. But you've really been on the road with a carnival??? Wow!! And a Dutch husband might be nice, too (as long as he's not a Dutch uncle).


Yep, spent about 10 years out on the road. My husband really is Dutch, too. He was born and raised in The Hague and still holds Dutch citizenship.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> So it doesn't bother you, that you could spend eternity in hell, if I am right?


Nope. Because what if YOU'RE wrong? You say you believe in a god but what if you believe in the wrong one? God is not a name, you know...it's a job title.


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## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> So it doesn't bother you, that you could spend eternity in hell, if I am right?


If there IS a loving god in charge, would he keep any of his creatures in hell forever? Is this a loving god? "Which of you when your child asks of you a fish, would give him a snake?"

See how argument is fruitless?

Why not work on what we can do here and now, and trust that the consequences of right actions will work out eventually? We do know that "By your fruits you will know them."


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

taborhills said:


> .
> Many of us find it more productive and positive to investigate for ourselves how we can actually become better, wiser, and more focused and have an accurate view, so far as we can, of the realities of life.


Wasting time on fantasy doesn't further that goal.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> What if you are wrong, and there is a hereafter?


Well, in that case I would guess you wouldn't have to worry about her being your neighbor in the hereafter


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Well, in that case I would guess you wouldn't have to worry about being your neighbor in the hereafter


Heaven for climate, hell for company.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Stood for a knife thrower, worked blade box and electric chair, handled snakes, made costumes. If no one is with the carnival, how do you still have carnivals? Although, I do have to admit that carnivals today are terribly boring compared to what they were before side shows, etc. disappeared.


You get tonight's point for being super cool and having the best profession here.

Did you run away from home to join the carnival?
Love snakes. 
You must be very glamorous.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> So it doesn't bother you, that you could spend eternity in hell, if I am right?


heaven would not be heavenly for me if I knew there were people suffering elsewhere.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Heaven for climate, hell for company.


Sounds good to me. I love that smiley, and have just stolen it.


----------



## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Matthew 13:49-50 (NKJV)
> 
> 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
> 
> ...


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> You get tonight's point for being super cool and having the best profession here.
> 
> Did you run away from home to join the carnival?
> Love snakes.
> You must be very glamorous.


Glamorous? Not any more...just too old to even consider that. Yes, I did run away from home in a sense. My grandmother kept telling me to get out. I had an offer to go with the show when it left town so I packed up and went. My grandmother did call the police and try to have me brought back (she was one that never thought I'd have the nerve to escape) but since I was 18, the cops just laughed at her.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Sounds good to me. I love that smiley, and have just stolen it.


I have several more that I made. A couple that I probably wouldn't be allowed to show you here.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Glamorous? Not any more...just too old to even consider that. Yes, I did run away from home in a sense. My grandmother kept telling me to get out. I had an offer to go with the show when it left town so I packed up and went. My grandmother did call the police and try to have me brought back (she was one that never thought I'd have the nerve to escape) but since I was 18, the cops just laughed at her.


OMG. You are right out of a story book. You looked great. Super Great. Did you marry the carousel man?


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> OMG. You are right out of a story book. You looked great. Super Great. Did you marry the carousel man?


No. The Tilt-a-Whirl foreman.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> I have several more that I made. A couple that I probably wouldn't be allowed to show you here.


You made it? You're the most talented person I've ever met - show biz, Dutch husband, and hand-made smileys. I bet you even knit.


----------



## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

Yes, I know these passages. I went to seminary and have studied the Bible pretty seriously over years. I value it. One cannot take the language of the Bible literally, nor did the author of the Revelation of St. John even intend that it be taken literally. It was written in metaphor, in code, to avoid the Roman oppressors' understanding. Instead of seeing the literal words, appreciate the beauty of the poetry and the inner meaning. 

Would you be able to consider this question: does fear of hell actually help you to become a better person? "By their fruits you shall know them." Is it effective to frighten children into shaping up?


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

taborhills said:


> Yes, I know these passages. I went to seminary and have studied the Bible pretty seriously over years. I value it. One cannot take the language of the Bible literally, nor did the author of the Revelation of St. John even intend that it be taken literally. It was written in metaphor, in code, to avoid the Roman oppressors' understanding. Instead of seeing the literal words, appreciate the beauty of the poetry and the inner meaning.
> 
> Would you be able to consider this question: does fear of hell actually help you to become a better person? "By their fruits you shall know them." Is it effective to frighten children into shaping up?


Ruling by fear.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

taborhills said:


> Yes, I know these passages. I went to seminary and have studied the Bible pretty seriously over years. I value it. One cannot take the language of the Bible literally, nor did the author of the Revelation of St. John even intend that it be taken literally. It was written in metaphor, in code, to avoid the Roman oppressors' understanding. Instead of seeing the literal words, appreciate the beauty of the poetry and the inner meaning.
> 
> Would you be able to consider this question: does fear of hell actually help you to become a better person? "By their fruits you shall know them." Is it effective to frighten children into shaping up?


What children usually learn is not "shape up" but simply "don't get caught."


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> You made it? You're the most talented person I've ever met - show biz, Dutch husband, and hand-made smileys. I bet you even knit.


Knit, crochet, tat, cross stitch, learning to spin, sew...anything to get out of housework.


----------



## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

I was briefly in the carnival myself. I traveled with a live, two headed cow. I am still great friends with my road buddies. Setting up and tearing down in the rain was the worst. Met loads of fascinating people.


SQM said:


> I cannot believe the part about the carnival. No one is with the carnival. That is only in '50s musicals. If you were in the carnival, what did you do?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Knit, crochet, tat, cross stitch, learning to spin, sew...anything to get out of housework.


Soon you'll be even more than the most talented person I know. Of course, the most significant talent is the ability to escape housework.


----------



## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

You probably know a lot of the same people I know jbandsma.


jbandsma said:


> Stood for a knife thrower, worked blade box and electric chair, handled snakes, made costumes. If no one is with the carnival, how do you still have carnivals? Although, I do have to admit that carnivals today are terribly boring compared to what they were before side shows, etc. disappeared.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> I was briefly in the carnival myself. I traveled with a live, two headed cow. I am still great friends with my road buddies. Setting up and tearing down in the rain was the worst. Met loads of fascinating people.


What a knitting website this is! Two carnies. A sloth writing a play. What can we expect next?


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> You probably know a lot of the same people I know jbandsma.


More than likely. I mostly worked the back end. Amusements of America, Dell and Travers, Buck-Page, some smaller, some larger. It's an education beyond what you'll ever find within college walls.


----------



## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Absolutely. I traveled with Rick West and he introduced me to guys like Ward Hall, John Strong, Jim Zajchek (sp?). If you know Jim, he is very sick with cancer right now. These were guys who showed oddities and now they are all aging and collecting front banners. Rick wrote a book about the history of sideshows called, "Pickled Punk and Girly Shows. Lots of great photos and stories. I'm even in it with a photo too. I'd send the photo, but I don't have it. I'll have to scan it from the book...too tired at the moment. Rick's uncle got him in the business when he was quite young. The uncle is still around, but off the road. His name is Tom Beimborn. I'm really glad you mentioned your past gig. It's true. We are all knitters, yet so much more.


jbandsma said:


> More than likely. I mostly worked the back end. Amusements of America, Dell and Travers, Buck-Page, some smaller, some larger. It's an education beyond what you'll ever find within college walls.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> Absolutely. I traveled with Rick West and he introduced me to guys like Ward Hall, John Strong, Jim Zajchek (sp?). If you know Jim, he is very sick with cancer right now. These were guys who showed oddities and now they are all aging and collecting front banners. Rick wrote a book about the history of sideshows called, "Pickled Punk and Girly Shows. Lots of great photos and stories. I'm even in it with a photo too. I'd send the photo, but I don't have it. I'll have to scan it from the book...too tired at the moment. Rick's uncle got him in the business when he was quite young. The uncle is still around, but off the road. His name is Tom Beimborn. I'm really glad you mentioned your past gig. It's true. We are all knitters, yet so much more.


Oh yes. I knew Ward Hall, Jerry Lipko and Rosie, Sealo, Grady Stiles, Otis, Stella the bearded lady...a lot of the sideshow people.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> Absolutely. I traveled with Rick West and he introduced me to guys like Ward Hall, John Strong, Jim Zajchek (sp?). If you know Jim, he is very sick with cancer right now. These were guys who showed oddities and now they are all aging and collecting front banners. Rick wrote a book about the history of sideshows called, "Pickled Punk and Girly Shows. Lots of great photos and stories. I'm even in it with a photo too. I'd send the photo, but I don't have it. I'll have to scan it from the book...too tired at the moment. Rick's uncle got him in the business when he was quite young. The uncle is still around, but off the road. His name is Tom Beimborn. I'm really glad you mentioned your past gig. It's true. We are all knitters, yet so much more.


I wish there was a digital edition of that book. I have too many books now to order another physical one. In the book does he make any mention of Peaches LeMay? Tony and Monica Barass? Sarah and I'm blanking on the last name...ran the girl show on Dell and Travers? Hell, for all I know, I could be in it.

:mrgreen:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> What if you are wrong, and there is a hereafter?


It does not matter if there is a hereafter or not, it is the here and now that counts. It is how you live your life, how you treat others at this precise moment that counts. If you are nasty, mean and horrible to others right at this moment it is a black mark against you here and now. It all adds up. It all counts against you. This includes forcing your beliefs upon others and belittling their beliefs and points of view. If you can honestly say you have never tried to ram your beliefs, your point of view down someones throat, then you have nothing to fear, either here or in the future.

The past is gone, you cannot change it, let it go. The future has not happened and you do not know what the future holds, you can not change it. Let it go also. The present is here and now, you can change it. We must all be mindful that others do not share the same beliefs we do and who is to know who is correct. We may all be wrong, even those ministers of religion who preach hell fire and damnation.

All that is asked is that people ease up with taking others to task and 'damming them to the torment and fires of hell forever' because they follow a different path, they have different beliefs. Remember: judge not as you also shall be judged. Perhaps you are wrong, ever thought of that.


----------



## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> So it doesn't bother you, that you could spend eternity in hell, if I am right?


You really know, deep in your heart, don't you, that there is no such thing as hell?

Hell was invented as control.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> How do you know it can't be taken literally? Revelation is prophesy. It *will* happen. The prophesy from the Old Testament was fulfilled.
> Once I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior, I have no fear of hell, as He promised me eternal life with Him in Heaven.
> I will tell children the truth on the level they will understand.


There are those who would disagree with you. I, for one, am absolutely certain that no prophecy from the Hebrew Bible was fulfilled. And as for your eternal life, it was people who promised it to you, speaking in the name of Jesus, and people have been known to make mistakes, even to lie.

I'm not trying to change your mind, just to point out that others believe different things, and they have no more reason to believe you than you have to believe them. You may be right, I may be right, the Buddhists may be right, we may all be right; in fact, all of us may be wrong.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It never entered my mind for a single moment.



brucew said:


> My partner of 20 years and I were finally able to get legally married last September and so far all my staright married friends are still married and babies are still being born. The world has not come to an end.
> There will always be straight people to carry on mankind. A person does not just wake up one day and say 'I think I will be gay, just like I will not wake up one day and say I think I will be straight.
> So rest assured the human race will continue on.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Don't forget the Catholics and/or atheists.



nittineedles said:


> I must be half Methodist and half Jewish. ;-)


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Eve is a fine person, as evidenced by her apology. Makes me proud.



nittineedles said:


> WOW! That's the nicest apology I've ever had. Of course you're forgiven. :-D


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You make me wonder. Is the Bible so popular because of the x-rated stuff? Probably. Is the x-rated stuff literally true? No. So how can people believe every word in the Bible? They want to so badly that they ignore reason and logic?



SQM said:


> Ponder over more important stuff. Why isn't the Bible X-rated? I liked few of the stories when I read it.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Well, we have a book store here that has it shelved in what I consider an appropriate place...in with the science fiction and fantasy.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> As a Buddhist it really does not bother me where they shelve the Tripitaka, just as long as they know where to direct someone who is looking for a copy.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Believe what you want. Some people grew out of needing invisible playmates long ago.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> High DuDgeon is a state of mind. I live near Charleston.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I figure that's their state of mind.



Poor Purl said:


> Be careful. The Bible is like a sacred cow to some.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm enjoying it too. It's interesting to see where the majority lies.



JoanAbrams said:


> Elsie: see what you started? We are all getting to know so much more about each other. It's great!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

What if you are wrong and there isn't? And how will anyone know until they're dead?

Personally I think there are more constructive things to consider. IMHO



joeysomma said:


> What if you are wrong, and there is a hereafter?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Yeah. And I just love beef stew. :twisted:


 :XD: :XD: :XD: Me too.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put. Thank you.



taborhills said:


> No one -- or very few -- of us who are here alive now can say for sure what happens after death, just as they cannot prove objectively where the world came from or whether there is a God. These are matters of personal belief and faith.
> 
> Discussion of course is fine if it doesn't become counterproductive by degenerating into frustration and disappointment.
> 
> Many of us find it more productive and positive to investigate for ourselves how we can actually become better, wiser, and more focused and have an accurate view, so far as we can, of the realities of life.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Nope. Because what if YOU'RE wrong? You say you believe in a god but what if you believe in the wrong one? God is not a name, you know...it's a job title.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

taborhills said:


> If there IS a loving god in charge, would he keep any of his creatures in hell forever? Is this a loving god? "Which of you when your child asks of you a fish, would give him a snake?"
> 
> See how argument is fruitless?
> 
> Why not work on what we can do here and now, and trust that the consequences of right actions will work out eventually? We do know that "By your fruits you will know them."


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Last try.

Not everyone believes as you do, and the ones who do not are offended by your preaching to them. They will not change their minds.

You will feel better discussing Bible verses with those who believe as you do.



joeysomma said:


> Matthew 13:49-50 (NKJV)
> 
> 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> Well, in that case I would guess you wouldn't have to worry about her being your neighbor in the hereafter


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> Well, in that case I would guess you wouldn't have to worry about her being your neighbor in the hereafter


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: I'm beginning to feel like I'm in hell now.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Heaven for climate, hell for company.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: I'm going to try to remember this. It's perfect. Thanks.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

A wild child who knew her soul. I'm happy to meet you.



jbandsma said:


> Glamorous? Not any more...just too old to even consider that. Yes, I did run away from home in a sense. My grandmother kept telling me to get out. I had an offer to go with the show when it left town so I packed up and went. My grandmother did call the police and try to have me brought back (she was one that never thought I'd have the nerve to escape) but since I was 18, the cops just laughed at her.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You made it? You're the most talented person I've ever met - show biz, Dutch husband, and hand-made smileys. I bet you even knit.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Lots of people firmly believe 'spare the rod, spoil the child.' Don't let reason stand in the way.



taborhills said:


> Yes, I know these passages. I went to seminary and have studied the Bible pretty seriously over years. I value it. One cannot take the language of the Bible literally, nor did the author of the Revelation of St. John even intend that it be taken literally. It was written in metaphor, in code, to avoid the Roman oppressors' understanding. Instead of seeing the literal words, appreciate the beauty of the poetry and the inner meaning.
> 
> Would you be able to consider this question: does fear of hell actually help you to become a better person? "By their fruits you shall know them." Is it effective to frighten children into shaping up?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> What children usually learn is not "shape up" but simply "don't get caught."


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My kind of friend.



jbandsma said:


> Knit, crochet, tat, cross stitch, learning to spin, sew...anything to get out of housework.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Soon you'll be even more than the most talented person I know. Of course, the most significant talent is the ability to escape housework.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I can hardly wait to find out! Whoooooohooooo!



Poor Purl said:


> What a knitting website this is! Two carnies. A sloth writing a play. What can we expect next?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put, Eve. Thanks for sharing.



EveMCooke said:


> It does not matter if there is a hereafter or not, it is the here and now that counts. It is how you live your life, how you treat others at this precise moment that counts. If you are nasty, mean and horrible to others right at this moment it is a black mark against you here and now. It all adds up. It all counts against you. This includes forcing your beliefs upon others and belittling their beliefs and points of view. If you can honestly say you have never tried to ram your beliefs, your point of view down someones throat, then you have nothing to fear, either here or in the future.
> 
> The past is gone, you cannot change it, let it go. The future has not happened and you do not know what the future holds, you can not change it. Let it go also. The present is here and now, you can change it. We must all be mindful that others do not share the same beliefs we do and who is to know who is correct. We may all be wrong, even those ministers of religion who preach hell fire and damnation.
> 
> All that is asked is that people ease up with taking others to task and 'damming them to the torment and fires of hell forever' because they follow a different path, they have different beliefs. Remember: judge not as you also shall be judged. Perhaps you are wrong, ever thought of that.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> There are those who would disagree with you. I, for one, am absolutely certain that no prophecy from the Hebrew Bible was fulfilled. And as for your eternal life, it was people who promised it to you, speaking in the name of Jesus, and people have been known to make mistakes, even to lie.
> 
> I'm not trying to change your mind, just to point out that others believe different things, and they have no more reason to believe you than you have to believe them. You may be right, I may be right, the Buddhists may be right, we may all be right; in fact, all of us may be wrong.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## hempshall (Oct 21, 2013)

So many people's lives have been ruined due to this bigotry. Please when will this attitude end. Everyone has the right to be happy with the person they choose.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put.



TammySmith said:


> Here's the issue, people like Guernsey and Pal Joey use and distort the bible to justify their inherent hate and bigotries.
> 
> I know this much, God is not the mean rotten creature they make him out to be --- so they are inherantly wrong on how they understand the bible and therefore His voice.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> You make me wonder. Is the Bible so popular because of the x-rated stuff? Probably. Is the x-rated stuff literally true? No. So how can people believe every word in the Bible? They want to so badly that they ignore reason and logic?


The x-rated stuff is the most believable stuff in it. No great heroes slaying giants; no serpents tricking human beings; just really evil men raping their sisters or half-sisters and then being pigs about it afterwards. This is believable.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Lots of people firmly believe 'spare the rod, spoil the child.' Don't let reason stand in the way.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

TammySmith said:


> Here's the issue, people like Guernsey and Pal Joey use and distort the bible to justify their inherent hate and bigotries.
> 
> I know this much, God is not the mean rotten creature they make him out to be --- so they are inherently wrong on how they understand the bible and therefore His voice.


Hello, Tammy. Don't be shy. Tell us what you really think.

But you say something important: why would an omnipotent, omniscient creator care where you shelved his biography?


----------



## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

I searched for my copy last night in all the shelves I expected to find it. I have too many books too, so I'll look again today. I am thinking that I loaned it to a friend and I will check with her about it. If nothing else, I will go directly to the source, Rick, himself. He lives in Texas and I in Wisconsin. With the wonderful world of internet, I can find out for you quickly.


jbandsma said:


> I wish there was a digital edition of that book. I have too many books now to order another physical one. In the book does he make any mention of Peaches LeMay? Tony and Monica Barass? Sarah and I'm blanking on the last name...ran the girl show on Dell and Travers? Hell, for all I know, I could be in it.
> 
> :mrgreen:


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> You make me wonder. Is the Bible so popular because of the x-rated stuff? Probably. Is the x-rated stuff literally true? No. So how can people believe every word in the Bible? They want to so badly that they ignore reason and logic?


The bible is a psychological comfort to many. Logic and reason is not a high priority to religious people. Faith is.


----------



## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

Prophecy does not mean forecasting the future. It means telling a wake-up truth. So a poem may talk about climbing a tree, but this does not necessarily mean that YOU will climb a tree. 

You cannot prove that hell is a literal place, and I cannot prove it is not. So why not focus on what we do know from our own real experience -- that love makes us happier than hate, that generosity ultimately feels better than greed, that moderation works better than extremes, that anger destroys ease, and so forth.

You and I speak different languages, have different educations and faith traditions. Can we agree that we want peace in this world if possible? Can we BE the changes we would like to see? Unthreatening, not bad-mouthing, not
insisting that one's way is the only way?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

taborhills said:


> Prophecy does not mean forecasting the future. It means telling a wake-up truth. So a poem may talk about climbing a tree, but this does not necessarily mean that YOU will climb a tree.
> 
> You cannot prove that hell is a literal place, and I cannot prove it is not. So why not focus on what we do know from our own real experience -- that love makes us happier than hate, that generosity ultimately feels better than greed, that moderation works better than extremes, that anger destroys ease, and so forth.
> 
> ...


Taborhills, you express yourself so well, from both head and heart. This is a really important message - I hope it's received that way.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> We were told by a rabbi to disregard the new testament, that it was just fiction.


Poor Purl
And so it goes and so it went and so it will go forever. Keeps some folks busy. Would just be nice if they would not pick up the spelling from the Bible.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

taborhills said:


> Prophecy does not mean forecasting the future. It means telling a wake-up truth. So a poem may talk about climbing a tree, but this does not necessarily mean that YOU will climb a tree.
> 
> You cannot prove that hell is a literal place, and I cannot prove it is not. So why not focus on what we do know from our own real experience -- that love makes us happier than hate, that generosity ultimately feels better than greed, that moderation works better than extremes, that anger destroys ease, and so forth.
> 
> ...


taborhill
THANK YOU. Something to take to Heart.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

maysmom said:


> Silly--Adam had the baseball cap and Eve had the big pink bow.
> 
> ;-)


maysmom
that is cute.


----------



## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> proph·e·cy [prof-uh-see] noun, plural proph·e·cies.
> 
> 1. the foretelling or prediction of what is to come.
> 
> ...


Notice that not all the definitions include forecasting. And some of the definitions use "prophecy" itself in explaining, so they can be misunderstood in circular thinking. I know it can be hard to get your head around this idea that a prophecy is a warning without being a forecast. A prophet speaks his truth, which has come to him through reflection, experience, or visions, and he obviously believes it to be important for others to hear. But men have been known to prophesy falsely or mistakenly.

So the responsibility is cast back on each of us to judge what is valid or not. Because someone wrote it or said it, or because someone had a prophetic vision, and the *Church chose* to include it in the canon, am I uncritically or even gullibly to believe it literally at face value? AND ( a further step) interpret it as a Prediction?

There is really no evading the responsibility to examine life for ourselves. The good news is that every human being has capacity to do so and to contribute to a happier healthier world. "The kingdom of God is within you."


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Congratulations on being able to marry (finally). Our niece in Holland and her partner were able to marry in 2009 (the Netherlands has had marriage equality since 2002). In May of last year they had a little boy. Overwhelming acceptance in a country that actually has a state religion...a very Calvinist state religion in fact.
> 
> I just hope this country doesn't regress to the point where, when the time comes that my granddaughter wants to make a commitment to another person, possibly the girl she's dating now, that she will be allowed to do so.


jbandsma
your granddaughter will have the blessing of the majority of people and the majority %age is going up.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

brucew
I am happy for you and your spouse.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

taborhill
you sound like the Rev. Tabor to whom we listened intensely for many years. He was a Jewel. Too bad he was transfered elsewhere and the replacement was a bore.


----------



## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> taborhill
> you sound like the Rev. Tabor to whom we listened intensely for many years. He was a Jewel. Too bad he was transfered elsewhere and the replacement was a bore.


Thanks, but no, I'm not. I am female and a former Catholic, well-educated in the Church, history, theology, scripture. As
I age, I see more clearly the simplicities of the truth and the fact that everyone does not need the same amounts of mythology and liturgy. In joy, Tabor/Karma Trinley Khandro


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Poor Purl
> And so it goes and so it went and so it will go forever. Keeps some folks busy. Would just be nice if they would not pick up the spelling from the Bible.


Just trying to keep things funny, Huck.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Just trying to keep things funny, Huck.


Poor Purl
much appreciated.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

damemary said:


> Last try.
> 
> Not everyone believes as you do, and the ones who do not are offended by your preaching to them. They will not change their minds.
> 
> You will feel better discussing Bible verses with those who believe as you do.


I'm not offended by her. Just amused that she spends so much time and energy "worried" about what's going to happen to others after they die that she forgets how to live.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> I searched for my copy last night in all the shelves I expected to find it. I have too many books too, so I'll look again today. I am thinking that I loaned it to a friend and I will check with her about it. If nothing else, I will go directly to the source, Rick, himself. He lives in Texas and I in Wisconsin. With the wonderful world of internet, I can find out for you quickly.


The name I was looking for was Sarah and Harold Weatherby


----------



## nittineedles (Apr 14, 2011)

I have a question. 
I have tried to be a good person all my life. I raised my children to be good people. I knit hats for charity. I donate to worthy causes. I love animals. I am honest and sincere. IF I am wrong and there is a heaven and hell, will I go to hell simply because I don't believe in God?


----------



## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

Looking forward to hearing some answers on where you will go!


----------



## brucew (May 7, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> brucew
> I am happy for you and your spouse.


Thank you.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

nittineedles said:


> I have a question.
> I have tried to be a good person all my life. I raised my children to be good people. I knit hats for charity. I donate to worthy causes. I love animals. I am honest and sincere. IF I am wrong and there is a heaven and hell, will I go to hell simply because I don't believe in God?


nittneedles
since there is no Hell, you have nothing to worry about.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Not my word but God's:
> 
> John 3:16 (NKJV)
> 
> 16_ For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. _


joeysomma
so you are so one blocking my view when going to a Ballgame and paying dearly for the ticket. Very unkind, actually very selfish and needs fixing.


----------



## nittineedles (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Not my word but God's:
> 
> John 3:16 (NKJV)
> 
> 16_ For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. _


A simple yes or no would suffice.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

nittineedles said:


> I have a question.
> I have tried to be a good person all my life. I raised my children to be good people. I knit hats for charity. I donate to worthy causes. I love animals. I am honest and sincere. IF I am wrong and there is a heaven and hell, will I go to hell simply because I don't believe in God?


This is a tough question to answer. Many of the hell-believers claim that they are automatically forgiven for their sins as long as they believe in Jesus as their Savior. They say that good works are meaningless.

On the other hand, your conscience, your heart, your history tell you that good works are what good people do, and good people should not go to hell.

Good luck with this.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

nittineedles said:


> A simple yes or no would suffice.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

After reading a few pages here, I realize how very boring my early years were!


----------



## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

Or if there is a hell, there might be nobody in it.


----------



## CorvallisKnitter (Jan 4, 2013)

Here's one of the best presented well thought out video arguments I've seen on homosexuality references in the bible:






Remember - if you take the whole bible literally - you shouldn't be knitting with mixed fibers per Leviticus!


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

CorvallisKnitter said:


> Here's one of the best presented well thought out video arguments I've seen on homosexuality references in the bible:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whew! Glad I can do something right!


----------



## brucew (May 7, 2012)

CorvallisKnitter said:


> Here's one of the best presented well thought out video arguments I've seen on homosexuality references in the bible:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for the link. He has hit the nail directly on the head.


----------



## nittineedles (Apr 14, 2011)

nittineedles said:


> I have a question.
> I have tried to be a good person all my life. I raised my children to be good people. I knit hats for charity. I donate to worthy causes. I love animals. I am honest and sincere. IF I am wrong and there is a heaven and hell, will I go to hell simply because I don't believe in God?


I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

CorvallisKnitter said:


> Here's one of the best presented well thought out video arguments I've seen on homosexuality references in the bible:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wonder if that applies to wool from 2 different breeds of sheep? Or if it applies to something like cashmere/silk? Or cashmere/merino since one is a goat and one is a sheep? Hmmmm?


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

nittineedles said:


> I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.


Ah well, it's a lovely afternoon. This evening should be nice to sit out on the porch and listen to the crickets.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> I wonder if that applies to wool from 2 different breeds of sheep? Or if it applies to something like cashmere/silk? Or cashmere/merino since one is a goat and one is a sheep? Hmmmm?


Literally, it's just the mixture of wool and linen. Even today, there are labs checking men's suits to make sure the thread sewing up the buttonholes are not linen. Wool and cotton, okay. Linen and silk, fine. Orlon and cashmere - well, that's just disgusting.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> . Orlon and cashmere - well, that's just disgusting.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> I wonder if that applies to wool from 2 different breeds of sheep? Or if it applies to something like cashmere/silk? Or cashmere/merino since one is a goat and one is a sheep? Hmmmm?


I believe it was wool and linen - one coming from an animal and another from a plant. A bit like a mixed marriage.

Did you know that in NYC a mixed marriage is one between a man and a women?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I believe it was wool and linen - one coming from an animal and another from a plant. A bit like a mixed marriage.
> 
> Did you know that in NYC a mixed marriage is one between a man and a women?


Yuk, yuk, yuk.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> I believe it was wool and linen - one coming from an animal and another from a plant. A bit like a mixed marriage.
> 
> Did you know that in NYC a mixed marriage is one between a man and a women?


That's what I've said for years. Unfortunately, the first time it was used was on a southern route when talking to one of the other workers. He was missing his wife and daughter and couldn't bring them on the road with him when the show came further south than PA. He was white, his wife was black and at the time Loving vs. Virginia hadn't been adjudicated and he and his family could have been jailed for being married.

Or worse, if the Klan had gotten wind of them being with the show.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> That's what I've said for years. Unfortunately, the first time it was used was on a southern route when talking to one of the other workers. He was missing his wife and daughter and couldn't bring them on the road with him when the show came further south than PA. He was white, his wife was black and at the time Loving vs. Virginia hadn't been adjudicated and he and his family could have been jailed for being married.
> 
> Or worse, if the Klan had gotten wind of them being with the show.


What show are you referring to?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put. Thank you for sharing.



taborhills said:


> Prophecy does not mean forecasting the future. It means telling a wake-up truth. So a poem may talk about climbing a tree, but this does not necessarily mean that YOU will climb a tree.
> 
> You cannot prove that hell is a literal place, and I cannot prove it is not. So why not focus on what we do know from our own real experience -- that love makes us happier than hate, that generosity ultimately feels better than greed, that moderation works better than extremes, that anger destroys ease, and so forth.
> 
> ...


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> What show are you referring to?


Carnival I was with at the time.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think she meant that as a universal question. I'm sure different people would answer from their beliefs. Personally, I believe that with the kind of life she leads, any God would be pleased.



Huckleberry said:


> nittneedles
> since there is no Hell, you have nothing to worry about.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think joey is interpreting God, who is sending you to hell because....because....because.....it ain't his word. Sorry. We'll meet up later, I hope.



nittineedles said:


> A simple yes or no would suffice.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh, I feel certain that if there is a hell, there will be someone in it. Take it to the bank.



taborhills said:


> Or if there is a hell, there might be nobody in it.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Very interesting. Thank you for sharing.



CorvallisKnitter said:


> Here's one of the best presented well thought out video arguments I've seen on homosexuality references in the bible:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Very interesting. Thank you for sharing.



CorvallisKnitter said:


> Here's one of the best presented well thought out video arguments I've seen on homosexuality references in the bible:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

At the very least, you are a superb baker, fine friend and wise, intelligent woman. xoxoxoxooxxo



alcameron said:


> Whew! Glad I can do something right!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I trust you aren't holding your breath. Perhaps is they knew you better they'd find a way to damn you to hell with no hesitation. We're all trying to play nicely.

You got my answer. (forget the exact phrasing for yes/no answer.) Joey interpreted God's bad news. I guess everyone else is knitting or napping.



nittineedles said:


> I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I trust you aren't holding your breath. Perhaps is they knew you better they'd find a way to damn you to hell with no hesitation. We're all trying to play nicely.

You got my answer. (forget the exact phrasing for yes/no answer.) Joey interpreted God's bad news. I guess everyone else is knitting or napping.



nittineedles said:


> I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.


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## nittineedles (Apr 14, 2011)

Who is Joey?


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

nittineedles said:


> I have a question.
> I have tried to be a good person all my life. I raised my children to be good people. I knit hats for charity. I donate to worthy causes. I love animals. I am honest and sincere. IF I am wrong and there is a heaven and hell, will I go to hell simply because I don't believe in God?


A simple Yes or No is what you'd like and I'll be happy to give you that simple answer, but first I'd have to know a couple of things:

Have you ever lied? (even a little white lie?) Have you ever cursed? Have you ever cheated on something? Have you ever looked at someone and had lustful thoughts? Have you ever been jealous of someone?


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> A simple Yes or No is what you'd like and I'll be happy to give you that simple answer, but first I'd have to know a couple of things:
> 
> Have you ever lied? (even a little white lie?) Have you ever cursed? Have you ever cheated on something? Have you ever looked at someone and had lustful thoughts? Have you ever been jealous of someone?


In other words...have you ever been a human being? Backhanded condemnation here?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> In other words...have you ever been a human being? Backhanded condemnation here?


I love the lustful thoughts test the best.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Joeysomma. Sorry. Don't mean to presume.



nittineedles said:


> Who is Joey?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And I have a question or two. In your faith is a 'white lie' enough to send someone to eternal damnation? Does your faith practice any form of confession? Thank you.



Wibdgrfan said:


> A simple Yes or No is what you'd like and I'll be happy to give you that simple answer, but first I'd have to know a couple of things:
> 
> Have you ever lied? (even a little white lie?) Have you ever cursed? Have you ever cheated on something? Have you ever looked at someone and had lustful thoughts? Have you ever been jealous of someone?


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> And I have a question or two. In your faith is a 'white lie' enough to send someone to eternal damnation? Does your faith practice any form of confession? Thank you.


Not backhanded at all. Unless a person recognizes sin, they have no need for a Savior. God demands perfection. It doesn't matter if you're a mass murderer or have only told one white lie in your whole life. Sin is sin. If you sin, you are not perfect and you cannot make it Heaven on your own merit. No person can earn their way to heaven by being "good" or doing "good" things.

Since ALL human beings have sinned, all are condemned by the holy and just God who demands perfection. Fortunately for us sinners, God is also loving and full of mercy. He has provided a way for sinful humans to have eternal life and joy in heaven. That way is through the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ.

The simple answer to her question is yes. If you don't believe in God, more specifically in Jesus Christ, who paid for all sins, then you will go to hell.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

A "white lie" is a sin. Without faith in Jesus, it doesn't matter if you have sinned once or ten billion times. Without Christ, sinners cannot meet God's requirement of perfection and will be damned eternally. 

In my faith, we confess our sins both publicly (in worship services) and privately, either to a pastor, a fellow Christian, or directly to God. And it is so awesome, after confessing, to receive the assurance that our sins are forgiven and we are right with God, because of what Christ has done for us.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

I don't do good things because I'm afraid of God. I am a forgiven child of God because of my faith in Christ Jesus. I do good works or act good out of love for Christ and all he has done for me.

The love I have been shown by God and Jesus, compels me to "pay it forward". "We love because He first loved us."


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for clarifying. What is the name of your religion?



Wibdgrfan said:


> Not backhanded at all. Unless a person recognizes sin, they have no need for a Savior. God demands perfection. It doesn't matter if you're a mass murderer or have only told one white lie in your whole life. Sin is sin. If you sin, you are not perfect and you cannot make it Heaven on your own merit. No person can earn their way to heaven by being "good" or doing "good" things.
> 
> Since ALL human beings have sinned, all are condemned by the holy and just God who demands perfection. Fortunately for us sinners, God is also loving and full of mercy. He has provided a way for sinful humans to have eternal life and joy in heaven. That way is through the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ.
> 
> The simple answer to her question is yes. If you don't believe in God, more specifically in Jesus Christ, who paid for all sins, then you will go to hell.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> I don't do good things because I'm afraid of God. I am a forgiven child of God because of my faith in Christ Jesus. I do good works or act good out of love for Christ and all he has done for me.
> 
> The love I have been shown by God and Jesus, compels me to "pay it forward". "We love because He first loved us."


But you couldn't do those things WITHOUT the impetus of a god?


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> Thank you for clarifying. What is the name of your religion?


I am a conservative Lutheran. (not ELCA)


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks. I grew up Roman Catholic so traditions different.



Wibdgrfan said:


> I am a conservative Lutheran. (not ELCA)


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> In other words...have you ever been a human being? Backhanded condemnation here?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
I am a witch, nice to meet you all. After dead I am going back in the loving arms of Mother Earth.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> But you couldn't do those things WITHOUT the impetus of a god?


Of course you could. There are many wonderful people in this world that are not Christians and they do many good things.

I think someone had made a comment about doing good things out of fear of being punished by God if they didn't do good. My comment was in response to that. Christians enjoy doing good things out of love for Christ, not because we are afraid of God.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Yes Tammy, I prefer to choose to do good deeds for my own self-respect and to honor God.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> Thanks. I grew up Roman Catholic so traditions different.


Catholics and Lutherans have many similarities due to our common background. The Lutheran religion began when a Catholic monk, Martin Luther, immersed himself in the study of the Bible. He focused intensely on the book of Romans and the teaching of justification by grace alone, through faith. His studies led him to post 95 thesis detailing changes he thought the Catholic church needed. His main argument was that we are saved by grace, not works.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so no one can boast.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Welcome.



littlebaba said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
> I am a witch, nice to meet you all. After dead I am going back in the loving arms of Mother Earth.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
> I am a witch, nice to meet you all. After dead I am going back in the loving arms of Mother Earth.


It's nice to meet you, too. I'm not sure if you are serious about being a witch. But I sure hope you are joking about "going back in the loving arms of Mother Earth".


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Catholics are taught that Martin Luther fell away from Catholicism and started a new faith. I see a common background, but many things are very different.



Wibdgrfan said:


> Catholics and Lutherans have many similarities due to our common background. The Lutheran religion began when a Catholic monk, Martin Luther, immersed himself in the study of the Bible. He focused intensely on the book of Romans and the teaching of justification by grace alone, through faith. His studies led him to post 95 thesis detailing changes he thought the Catholic church needed. His main argument was that we are saved by grace, not works.
> 
> Ephesians 2:8-9 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so no one can boast.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> Of course you could. There are many wonderful people in this world that are not Christians and they do many good things.
> 
> I think someone had made a comment about doing good things out of fear of being punished by God if they didn't do good. My comment was in response to that. Christians enjoy doing good things out of love for Christ, not because we are afraid of God.


But you are saying that you do things "out of love" but what I've seen from so many who profess the same thing is that "good" is done in order to receive rewards AFTER THEY DIE and only refrain from doing other things to prevent punishment...AFTER THEY DIE. It just makes no sense


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
> I am a witch, nice to meet you all. After dead I am going back in the loving arms of Mother Earth.


Oh, wonderful. Being a witch is almost as good as working in a carnival. What a great crowd we have here.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> Catholics are taught that Martin Luther fell away from Catholicism and started a new faith. I see a common background, but many things are very different.


Oh, that's for sure! I have a question for you...

Do Catholics teach that only Catholics will be in Heaven? I only ask because someone once told me this and I'm curious if it's true.


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## nittineedles (Apr 14, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> A simple Yes or No is what you'd like and I'll be happy to give you that simple answer, but first I'd have to know a couple of things:
> 
> Have you ever lied? (even a little white lie?) Have you ever cursed? Have you ever cheated on something? Have you ever looked at someone and had lustful thoughts? Have you ever been jealous of someone?


Yes. (Yes.) Oh, absolutely yes. Yes. If husbands count, then yes. Yes. So I assume your answer would be no.

What a shame. I could have gone through life doing away with anyone who displeased me. I could have robbed banks, my employers, the corner store. I could have told everyone exactly what I thought of them and told them to FOff as tears rolled down their cheeks. I could have had sex with my sisters' boyfriends and been jealous of all the religious zealots' belief in a God. Then, on my deathbed I could call for a priest to absolve me of all my sins and go to heaven anyway. Dam! I wish I'd known this sooner.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> But you are saying that you do things "out of love" but what I've seen from so many who profess the same thing is that "good" is done in order to receive rewards AFTER THEY DIE and only refrain from doing other things to prevent punishment...AFTER THEY DIE. It just makes no sense


I'd have to agree with you - that doesn't make any sense. I'm not sure which religions teach that, or if people just make up their own ideas, but that is not what the Bible teaches.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> But you are saying that you do things "out of love" but what I've seen from so many who profess the same thing is that "good" is done in order to receive rewards AFTER THEY DIE and only refrain from doing other things to prevent punishment...AFTER THEY DIE. It just makes no sense


Frankly, I have the same problem with them that you have, but if you believe in an afterlife, there's way more time spent there/then than in life on earth, so you want to be certain that's going to work out for you.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

nittineedles said:


> Yes. (Yes.) Oh, absolutely yes. Yes. If husbands count, then yes. Yes. So I assume your answer would be no.
> 
> What a shame. I could have gone through life doing away with anyone who displeased me. I could have robbed banks, my employers, the corner store. I could have told everyone exactly what I thought of them and told them to FOff as tears rolled down their cheeks. I could have had sex with my sisters' boyfriends and been jealous of all the religious zealots' belief in a God. Then, on my deathbed I could call for a priest to absolve me of all my sins and go to heaven anyway. Dam! I wish I'd known this sooner.


That's too bad, because I'm sure there are some here whose form of Christianity does just what you'd like. Now you're probably too old to do all that fun stuff. You can still tell people to F off as tears roll down their cheeks. That alone might be fun.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

nittineedles said:


> Yes. (Yes.) Oh, absolutely yes. Yes. If husbands count, then yes. Yes. So I assume your answer would be no.
> 
> What a shame. I could have gone through life doing away with anyone who displeased me. I could have robbed banks, my employers, the corner store. I could have told everyone exactly what I thought of them and told them to FOff as tears rolled down their cheeks. I could have had sex with my sisters' boyfriends and been jealous of all the religious zealots' belief on a God. Then, on my deathbed I could call for a priest to absolve me of all my sins and go to heaven anyway. Dam! I wish I'd known this sooner.


LOL. Yep, that's one way to look at it! Of course, if a person lives their life in that manner, they won't have many friends and they might end up in jail. And, what if you die suddenly? With no opportunity to repent or confess Christ? It's kind of like playing Russian roulette. Not being a gambler, I prefer the safer route.

Christ's payment for our sins does not give us license to do whatever we want and then repent on our death bed. TRUE repentance means sorrow for doing it and not continuing to sin. Again, love for Christ compels us to live according to His teachings. Do we fail daily? Absolutely! Do we keep trying to do his will? Absolutely! And, it's not easy!


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## nittineedles (Apr 14, 2011)

If I stole enough money I'd have lots of "friends" and if I were the CEO of a big corporation or a politician it's unlikely I'd ever go to jail. 

Your god is unfair and a raging, arrogant egotist. I'd rather believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

nittineedles said:


> If I stole enough money I'd have lots of "friends" and if I were the CEO of a big corporation or a politician it's unlikely I'd ever go to jail.
> 
> Your god is unfair and a raging, arrogant egotist. I'd rather believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.


Since God created the world and everything in it, it is only right that he gets to make the rules. He demands perfection. He also know that because of sin, no human can be perfect. Which is why he sent Christ to live a perfect life for us. He accepts Christ's sacrifice as payment for everyone. And He's given everyone the opportunity to read about it in the Bible so they know what is required. Now, that seems pretty generous to me. And more than fair!


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

> Wibdgrfan wrote:
> LOL. Yep, that's one way to look at it! Of course, if a person lives their life in that manner, they won't have many friends and they might end up in jail. And, what if you die suddenly? With no opportunity to repent or confess Christ? It's kind of like playing Russian roulette. Not being a gambler, I prefer the safer route.
> 
> 
> ...


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## nittineedles (Apr 14, 2011)

If he's so all powerful why didn't he make us without independent thought. How can he , in all fairness, demand perfection when he knows "that because of sin, no human can be perfect"? You can add warped, sadistic sense of humour to my list.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

nittineedles said:


> If he's so all powerful why didn't he make us without independent thought. How can he , in all fairness, demand perfection when he knows "that because of sin, no human can be perfect"? You can add warped, sadistic sense of humour to my list.


Interesting. I always said that god is not perfect because she gave us free will. What a mess that has gotten us into.


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## nittineedles (Apr 14, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> He loves me unconditionally


But he *does* have one condition. You must believe in him.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

nittineedles said:


> But he *does* have one condition. You must believe in him.


Nope - you're wrong. God loves ALL people and even sent his one and only son so that ALL people could be redeemed.
1 Timothy 2:4 states" God wants all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth".

People reject God; God does not reject them. If people choose to reject his free gift of salvation, they will be condemned eternally.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Nitti is a sharp debater. You should follow us around more.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> Interesting. I always said that god is not perfect because she gave us free will. What a mess that has gotten us into.


God is perfect and holy. Humans were made in God's image - perfect and holy. They did have free will, because it is only with free will that you can truly offer love to God. Then Satan convinced Eve to eat the fruit and wham! - sin entered the world.

And in the blink of an eye we were no longer holy. But immediately God provided a solution. He promised a Savior that would crush Satan. That Savior came to earth in the person of Jesus Christ. He lived a perfect life and paid for all sins by dying on the cross. God accepts Christ's righteousness as ours, if we believe.

Romans 5:18-19 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.


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## nittineedles (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Nitti is a sharp debater. You should follow us around more.


Thanks but unfortunately I am easily bored. I'm off to start dinner. Then some exciting knitting and if he's lucky some good, sinful lusting. :thumbup:


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> People are becoming "less and less religious" because they are too self-centered. !


People are becoming less and less religious because a dusty old book transcribed from the tales of nomadic cattle herders are being shown to be just that...old tales with nothing of fact to them.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Wibdgrfan said:


> It's nice to meet you, too. I'm not sure if you are serious about being a witch. But I sure hope you are joking about "going back in the loving arms of Mother Earth".


I am not joking I am a witch, I love the power of the full moon, female and loving. My goddess is Mother Earth and I know she loves me exactly like I am.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> People are becoming less and less religious because a dusty old book transcribed from the tales of nomadic cattle herders are being shown to be just that...old tales with nothing of fact to them.


Sheep I believe. Are you from the West?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

littlebaba said:


> I am not joking I am a witch, I love the power of the full moon, female and loving. My goddess is Mother Earth and I know she loves me exactly like I am.


Are you a Wiccan? I find the Earth Religions the most poetic.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> Sheep I believe. Are you from the West?


Actually I said camel herders. I'm still using text to speech due to my hand and this one I didn't catch.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

littlebaba said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
> I am a witch, nice to meet you all. After dead I am going back in the loving arms of Mother Earth.


Are you a white witch or a black witch? I am a white witch and only cast pleasant spells and love charms. I love to charm people. Come fly with me on my new broomstick, I think we will have some fun. It is getting a little stuffy here I need a change of scenery. Where would you like to go today?


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

littlebaba said:


> I am not joking I am a witch, I love the power of the full moon, female and loving. My goddess is Mother Earth and I know she loves me exactly like I am.


The Wiccan religion is very fascinating. I hope you do not mind my previous joke. I do not wish to offend you. The Wiccan religion harks back to Mother Earth and nature and is not dour. About 12 years ago we had a group near where I live, they met at a cafe not far from where my son was working. Then the cafe was sold and the group moved away. They were very interesting and fascinating people. Very gentle souls. They knew how to laugh and take a joke so I know you will not be offended by my offer to take you on a broomstick ride with me, but it is getting stuffy here.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Hy EVE , that's the difference about me: I was laughing loud when I read your answer. I think I am a gray witch, mostly nice and sweet, but my Ex is still afraid I am going to hex him into a frog.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

nittineedles said:


> Yes. (Yes.) Oh, absolutely yes. Yes. If husbands count, then yes. Yes. So I assume your answer would be no.
> 
> What a shame. I could have gone through life doing away with anyone who displeased me. I could have robbed banks, my employers, the corner store. I could have told everyone exactly what I thought of them and told them to FOff as tears rolled down their cheeks. I could have had sex with my sisters' boyfriends and been jealous of all the religious zealots' belief in a God. Then, on my deathbed I could call for a priest to absolve me of all my sins and go to heaven anyway. Dam! I wish I'd known this sooner.


Oh my dear, do you mean you have not done these things. It is not too late, you must make amends immediately. Now, what shall we start with. I know, rob the bank because you will need the money in order to enjoy the other things. Just do not forget to have Rasputin close by, you never know when you will need a priest to give absolution. Heaven forbid, you may be run over by a bus and with no priest in tow, well, downstairs you go my girl.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Good girls go to heaven, bad ones everywhere. Go for it nittinedles


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## KnittingNerd (Mar 28, 2012)

First I want to say....I am Muslim was raised Christian grew up going to Christian schools and churches. But converted to Islam after many years studying my religious path. The Quran has many stories like the bible but the Quran hasn't been changed in over 4000 yrs, it's written a way you can't change it. 

ANYWAY...I've HEARD that there were other people (not from the Israelite tribe) who were here. I'm pretty sure God did not just make Adam and Eve. I'm pretty sure he's made other beings before and after us.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

KnittingNerd said:


> First I want to say....I am Muslim was raised Christian grew up going to Christian schools and churches. But converted to Islam after many years studying my religious path. The Quran has many stories like the bible but the Quran hasn't been changed in over 4000 yrs, it's written a way you can't change it.
> 
> The Bible has not changed either. People's interpretation of it has changed, but the original manuscripts have not. People try to make it say what makes sense to them or what they want to hear. That way they don't have to give up their favorite sins. It's really quite sad.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

KnittingNerd said:


> The Bible has not changed either. People's interpretation of it has changed, but the original manuscripts have not. People try to make it say what makes sense to them or what they want to hear. That way they don't have to give up their favorite sins. It's really quite sad.


Uh, yes it has changed, something like 400 times since the 1300's. Whole books have been removed, others have been added. The translations have changed from the original to the Greek to the Latin and finally to English by King James (who used fewer words than Shakespeare). You cannot say that there are no changes in that many translations, let alone consider what has been removed and what has been added.

We have several bibles here. Have compared the Dutch and English versions and found a lot of differences just in the amount of content. Compare the Douay bible (Catholic bible, as it is known) to any of the others and you'll find the same problems.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Uh, yes it has changed, something like 400 times since the 1300's. Whole books have been removed, others have been added. The translations have changed from the original to the Greek to the Latin and finally to English by King James (who used fewer words than Shakespeare). You cannot say that there are no changes in that many translations, let alone consider what has been removed and what has been added.
> 
> We have several bibles here. Have compared the Dutch and English versions and found a lot of differences just in the amount of content. Compare the Douay bible (Catholic bible, as it is known) to any of the others and you'll find the same problems.


The ORIGINAL manuscripts have not changed. It is important to go to the original Hebrew for the Old Testament and the original Greek for the New Testament when translation discrepancies arise. In Christianity, the Bible is 66 total books - 39 Old Testament and 27 New Testament. Catholics use a Bible that includes 7 books which are not included in Protestant Bibles. And they are not included for good reason. Jesus did not use them - his reference to Moses and the prophets would end at Malachi.

Luke 24:27, "And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself." "Moses and all the Prophets" were the Scriptures that Jesus used.

Also, words may have changed to reflect current language as spoken, (for example King James english is no longer used by most people, which is why many Christians now prefer the NIV) but that doesn't mean the Bible has changed. It just means it's been updated. As long as the language is true to the original meaning there is no problem.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Please look up the Council of Nicea. One of the first "Christian" organizations to sit specifically to decide which books from those "original" translations were to be OFFICIALLY adopted by the church. And the next council decided that the Hebrew texts weren't clear enough so they'd use the Greek. You seem to forget that the Hebrew version of what is now called the 'new' testament was NOT the original. The Aramaic was.


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## JoanAbrams (Jan 19, 2014)

You know , I believe that G'd doesn't care if I believe in Him/Her or not. If I live as if I do, or as I should, causing no harm, then I'm okay. Of course, the fact that I don't worry about heaven or hell makes a difference.


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## JoanAbrams (Jan 19, 2014)

Wibdgrfan said:


> Oh, that's for sure! I have a question for you...
> 
> Do Catholics teach that only Catholics will be in Heaven? I only ask because someone once told me this and I'm curious if it's true.


A friend told me if I wasn't buried in a Catholic cemetary ,I couldn't go to heaven. I told her I don't believe in heaven and spending eternity surrounded by Catholics was my definition of Hell. ( Now i don't mean ALL Catholics. I was referring to my family. Some Catholics are very nice.)


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Please look up the Council of Nicea. One of the first "Christian" organizations to sit specifically to decide which books from those "original" translations were to be OFFICIALLY adopted by the church. And the next council decided that the Hebrew texts weren't clear enough so they'd use the Greek. You seem to forget that the Hebrew version of what is now called the 'new' testament was NOT the original. The Aramaic was.


As stated in my earlier post, the New Testament was written in Greek.

I am actually familiar with the Council of Nicea, although by no means an expert. If recollection serves me correctly, the Council of Nicea met to discuss the heretical teachings that disavowed the deity of Christ. The Nicene Creed was born from that council, which does indeed affirm the deity of Christ. I also think this council determined when Easter would be celebrated.

While there were always some disagreements about which books to include in the Bible, there were general guidelines that had to be met. However, I don't think this was on the agenda for the Council of Nicea. The canonization of the Bible is a very lengthy discussion and I would need to do much more research before engaging in a debate about that.

And, I'm not sure it really matters because ALL Bibles include the basic Old Testament books and the four gospels. In question are usually some books the Catholics add to the end of the Old Testament and the books known as the Apocrypha, which some denominations add to the New Testament. But the basic message of the Bible is unchanged. God is the Creator of all. Man sinned. God sent His Son to be the Savior, the perfect substitute for sinful man. All who believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior will inherit eternal life.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

JoanAbrams said:


> You know , I believe that G'd doesn't care if I believe in Him/Her or not. If I live as if I do, or as I should, causing no harm, then I'm okay. Of course, the fact that I don't worry about heaven or hell makes a difference.


That may be what you believe, but that is not what the Bible teaches. As long as you can keep the law perfectly, you will be fine. Have you been perfect your entire life? I know I haven't and I am beyond grateful that God allows Jesus Christ to be my substitute. I can't wait to spend eternity with God in the mansions he has prepared for all believers in Heaven.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Oh my dear, do you mean you have not done these things. It is not too late, you must make amends immediately. Now, what shall we start with. I know, rob the bank because you will need the money in order to enjoy the other things. Just do not forget to have Rasputin close by, you never know when you will need a priest to give absolution. Heaven forbid, you may be run over by a bus and with no priest in tow, well, downstairs you go my girl.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

littlebaba said:


> Good girls go to heaven, bad ones everywhere. Go for it nittinedles


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The Catholic Bible omits many books, deeming them not the 'true Word of God.' All this means is that there are many discrepancies in versions of the Bible, and translations pose their own difficulties.

This just means these versions are not the same. They don't agree. How do you put all your faith in the Bible?



jbandsma said:


> Uh, yes it has changed, something like 400 times since the 1300's. Whole books have been removed, others have been added. The translations have changed from the original to the Greek to the Latin and finally to English by King James (who used fewer words than Shakespeare). You cannot say that there are no changes in that many translations, let alone consider what has been removed and what has been added.
> 
> We have several bibles here. Have compared the Dutch and English versions and found a lot of differences just in the amount of content. Compare the Douay bible (Catholic bible, as it is known) to any of the others and you'll find the same problems.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Opinions vary. Teaching change. I don't keep up anymore. Good luck, Pope Francis. Poor man can't even keep a banker.



JoanAbrams said:


> A friend told me if I wasn't buried in a Catholic cemetary ,I couldn't go to heaven. I told her I don't believe in heaven and spending eternity surrounded by Catholics was my definition of Hell. ( Now i don't mean ALL Catholics. I was referring to my family. Some Catholics are very nice.)


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Not everyone believes the same. I'm sure you've noticed.



Wibdgrfan said:


> As stated in my earlier post, the New Testament was written in Greek.
> 
> I am actually familiar with the Council of Nicea, although by no means an expert. If recollection serves me correctly, the Council of Nicea met to discuss the heretical teachings that disavowed the deity of Christ. The Nicene Creed was born from that council, which does indeed affirm the deity of Christ. I also think this council determined when Easter would be celebrated.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Diversity at its finest.

I propose we all present our beliefs (or lack thereof) and answer all respectful questions. We should remind ourselves that many do not share our beliefs, and abstain from preaching and trying to convert others. We are all intelligent adults and we are entitled to state our own opinions only. What do you think?



Poor Purl said:


> Oh, wonderful. Being a witch is almost as good as working in a carnival. What a great crowd we have here.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

nittineedles said:


> If I stole enough money I'd have lots of "friends" and if I were the CEO of a big corporation or a politician it's unlikely I'd ever go to jail.
> 
> Your god is unfair and a raging, arrogant egotist. I'd rather believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I appreciate your deep belief, but I'm beginning to feel like I'm at a revival meeting. I'd be more comfortable if we changed topics. Thanks.



Wibdgrfan said:


> People are becoming "less and less religious" because they are too self-centered. They only care about what is good for them. They only care about their own truth. They want to be able to do whatever makes them happy, rather than what God has commanded them to do. It's much easier to just do your own thing and ignore religion than it is to step up and do what it right in God's eyes.
> 
> God is a loving God. But he is also a just God. God hates sin and has told us he hates sin. He has given us rules to follow so we can honor him. And, even though he knows no human being can possibly keep all his rules, he has given us another option - the righteousness of Christ. I am humbled to be loved by an awesome God like that! He loves me unconditionally even though I don't deserve it. Wow! Just Wow!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Diversity at its finest.
> 
> I propose we all present our beliefs (or lack thereof) and answer all respectful questions. We should remind ourselves that many do not share our beliefs, and abstain from preaching and trying to convert others. We are all intelligent adults and we are entitled to state our own opinions only. What do you think?


I'm more interested in what people do than what they believe. They're much less preachy when they talk about what they do.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

nittineedles said:


> Thanks but unfortunately I am easily bored. I'm off to start dinner. Then some exciting knitting and if he's lucky some good, sinful lusting. :thumbup:


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I appreciate your deep belief, but I'm beginning to feel like I'm at a revival meeting. I'd be more comfortable if we changed topics. Thanks.


See what I mean?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm more interested in what people do than what they believe. They're much less preachy when they talk about what they do.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: That has been my experience also.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

nittineedles said:


> If I stole enough money I'd have lots of "friends" and if I were the CEO of a big corporation or a politician it's unlikely I'd ever go to jail.


I always say I would never shoplift anything. If you are going to steal then make it worth while. Do an Allan Bond and steal multi millions. You have a great time on the outside until you are caught and when you are caught you get a better class of cell in gaol. You can also afford better lawyers who can bamboozle the jury with their fancy words. You do not have to rely on the elcheapo Legal Aid lawyers . And once in gaol you have enough money to demand respect and have the other crims running around after you, begging for crumbs from your table. But wait, there is more. Your fancy smansy lawyer will get you out on parole much earlier than you should and you can hire a ghost writer to write your story and make even more money. Of course, you do not have to repay all you owe, you just hide the money and declare yourself bankrupt, then after a few years you can start up all over again.

I nearly forgot, it also helps if you marry money and use your spouses money to start your enterprises, then when you are rolling in it you just dump them and marry some floozy.

There, you have it. The lifestory of Allan Bond. I am sure you all know who he is. I am sure he also took some Americans to the cleaners. Others may remember him from the American Cup Challenges of the 80s, remember when Australia won it in 83. Some may also remember Allan and his first wife 'Big Red' from the previous challenge.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm more interested in what people do than what they believe. They're much less preachy when they talk about what they do.


We could tell some tales if we all told what we do. It would make interesting reading.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> I appreciate your deep belief, but I'm beginning to feel like I'm at a revival meeting. I'd be more comfortable if we changed topics. Thanks.


Agreed. As I said it is getting far too stuffy in here.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> I am not joking I am a witch, I love the power of the full moon, female and loving. My goddess is Mother Earth and I know she loves me exactly like I am.


Blessed be, ma'am!!

:thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> We could tell some tales if we all told what we do. It would make interesting reading.


Isn't that why we're here? Would you like to start, or should we ask one of the carnival women?


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Wibdgrfan said:


> Not backhanded at all. Unless a person recognizes sin, they have no need for a Savior. God demands perfection. It doesn't matter if you're a mass murderer or have only told one white lie in your whole life. Sin is sin. If you sin, you are not perfect and you cannot make it Heaven on your own merit. No person can earn their way to heaven by being "good" or doing "good" things.
> 
> Since ALL human beings have sinned, all are condemned by the holy and just God who demands perfection. Fortunately for us sinners, God is also loving and full of mercy. He has provided a way for sinful humans to have eternal life and joy in heaven. That way is through the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ.
> 
> The simple answer to her question is yes. If you don't believe in God, more specifically in Jesus Christ, who paid for all sins, then you will go to hell.


Wibdgrfan
You believe in Hell and Heaven, I believe in neither and shall return to where I came from, dust in the Wind.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Isn't that why we're here? Would you like to start, or should we ask one of the carnival women?


I only know of one carnival woman. Who is the other? What a humdrum life I have led.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> Wibdgrfan
> You believe in Hell and Heaven, I believe in neither and shall return to where I came from, dust in the Wind.


You have already returned in spades all over my apt.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> The Catholic Bible omits many books, deeming them not the 'true Word of God.' All this means is that there are many discrepancies in versions of the Bible, and translations pose their own difficulties.
> 
> This just means these versions are not the same. They don't agree. How do you put all your faith in the Bible?


I put my faith in God, whose inerrant word is revealed to us in the Holy Bible.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Wibdgrfan
> You believe in Hell and Heaven, I believe in neither and shall return to where I came from, dust in the Wind.


So do you believe that when you die, that's it. Over. Done. No afterlife? I only ask because I am truly curious. That is so different from what I believe.

I, too, believe that when I die I will be either buried or cremated and eventually return to dust. But when Christ returns, my body will be resurrected (just as Christ's was) and will be reunited with my soul, and I, along with all believers, will join Christ forever in Heaven. I take great comfort in knowing this earthly life is not the end. I will be reunited with friends and family who have gone before me. There will be no more pain or suffering or sorrow. That final day cannot come soon enough for Christians!


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

damemary said:


> I appreciate your deep belief, but I'm beginning to feel like I'm at a revival meeting. I'd be more comfortable if we changed topics. Thanks.


Some of those revival meetings were actually held by carnies on the off season...before the "first of May". You wouldn't believe the money they took in. But, they were just sideshows in white robes.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

The only reason people believe in ANY afterlife is because they can't imagine that essential 'ME' not existing. They'd rather imagine themselves in some kind of hell (although they'd never admit that) than see themselves as not existing at all. That's very normal. It's part of what keeps us from walking out in front of a bus or skydiving with an umbrella.

I don't like it, either. But I recognize it for what it is. Just part of survival and a big part of ego.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Since this thread started talking about homosexual couples, I thought this news article important. When the baker refused to bake the gay wedding cake, he lost his religious freedom. Now he will make no wedding cakes. What financial harm to him and his family.
> 
> This is the next step for the gay agenda in this country. It has nothing to do with equal rights. It is only for power. They want to destroy all morality in this country.
> 
> ...


That is an outright lie. No church will ever be FORCED to perform a marriage for anybody they don't wish to. If that was a case then churches would have been FORCED to perform mixed race marriages when they didn't even accept other race members.

A public business, however, is NOT a church but even they are not FORCED not to discriminate. The fact that people who don't believe the same withhold their business from these establishments is enough.


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## ann seal (Jan 30, 2014)

Elsie Shufflebottom said:


> That is the problem that I have. The Bible has been translated over and over, by people who have an axe to grind, and often mistranslated. The books that were chosen were not the only ones written. I still regard the Bible as a Holy Book, and a very interesting thing to read, but I do not believe everything in it. I was taught that God loves us all. If He made us in His image then how He made you, as a gay man, is right, you are also made in his image, just as I, a woman, was made in his image. And God would never regard you as an abomination. The God I was taught about loves every one of us.


As I often do, I agree with you. 
:!: :!: :!: :!: :thumbup: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I don't think you really read the article. The present judges in this country could care less about precedent, or decisions of the past. The gay agenda (being a minority) are intent on taking over this country. They are doing it piece by piece. This force of churches to marry gay couples is in other countries. It is something to think about. It will come here. Not if, but when.


You're so full of it your eyes are brown.

You only post this crap in order to try to influence other people to your way of thinking...that there are those who do not deserve to be considered human or to receive the same rights as you have.

And no, other countries churches are NOT being forced to marry gay couples, either, although many do. Of their own volition. However, in the majority of European countries a church wedding does not equal a state legal marriage. You have to register and be married in city hall for it to be legal.

Too bad this country doesn't follow suit.


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I don't think you really read the article. The present judges in this country could care less about precedent, or decisions of the past. The gay agenda (being a minority) are intent on taking over this country. They are doing it piece by piece. This force of churches to marry gay couples is in other countries. It is something to think about. It will come here. Not if, but when.


I must have missed all this at our last Gay Take Over The World meeting. There is no Gay Agenda but there sure seems to be a fundamental Christian agenda.
When my partner and I got married last summer we only used places that were Gay friendly. If a company does not want to do business with us then I will not give them my hard earned money. There are a lot of businesses that are more than happy to support us and in turn I will suppport them.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

brucew said:


> I must have missed all this at our last Gay Take Over The World meeting. There is no Gay Agenda but there sure seems to be a fundamental Christian agenda.
> When my partner and I got married last summer we only used places that were Gay friendly. If a company does not want to do business with us then I will not give them my hard earned money. There are a lot of businesses that are more than happy to support us and in turn I will suppport them.


I never married in a church, why spend that much money? My wife and I married in Switzerland when she still was a man. Now we are still married, even when she became a woman last year. So glad you were able to marry somebody you love.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Wibdgrfan
> You believe in Hell and Heaven, I believe in neither and shall return to where I came from, dust in the Wind.


We know that dust bunnies breed like rabbits.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I only know of one carnival woman. Who is the other? What a humdrum life I have led.


Don't you read any of the messages? They've been talking to each other, catching up on the people they know in common. It's been fun. If you want to know, go back a few pages and read.


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

littlebaba said:


> I never married in a church, why spend that much money? My wife and I married in Switzerland when she still was a man. Now we are still married, even when she became a woman last year. So glad you were able to marry somebody you love.


I really admire your devotion to your spouse. It just goes to show that true love knows no bounds. I wish both of you many years of love and happiness.

We did not get married in a church we rented a room at the Unitarian Society and my sister got herself ordained just so she could perform our marriage. We then went back to our house for a picnic in the backyard. My husband's 95 year old mother stood up for him as his best person. My sister's partner stood up for me. We had all of our closests friends and supporters around us for the event and the whole thing was less than $400.00. And it was the best day of my life.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Don't you read any of the messages? They've been talking to each other, catching up on the people they know in common. It's been fun. If you want to know, go back a few pages and read.


Or just look for my recent posts.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> The only reason people believe in ANY afterlife is because they can't imagine that essential 'ME' not existing. They'd rather imagine themselves in some kind of hell (although they'd never admit that) than see themselves as not existing at all. That's very normal. It's part of what keeps us from walking out in front of a bus or skydiving with an umbrella.
> 
> I don't like it, either. But I recognize it for what it is. Just part of survival and a big part of ego.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> That is an outright lie. No church will ever be FORCED to perform a marriage for anybody they don't wish to. If that was a case then churches would have been FORCED to perform mixed race marriages when they didn't even accept other race members.
> 
> A public business, however, is NOT a church but even they are not FORCED not to discriminate. The fact that people who don't believe the same withhold their business from these establishments is enough.


Though what you're saying here makes sense (and is believable) something is going on in universities that sounds dangerous to me.

The NYTimes has an article on how academic bodies are insisting that religious organization be *required* to open their leadership to anyone, of any faith.

"At Cal State, the nations largest university system with nearly 450,000 students on 23 campuses, _the chancellor is preparing this summer to withdraw official recognition from evangelical groups that are refusing to pledge not to discriminate on the basis of religion in the selection of their leaders_. And at Vanderbilt, more than a dozen groups, most of them evangelical but one of them Catholic, have already lost their official standing over the same issue; _one Christian group balked after a university official asked the students to cut the words personal commitment to Jesus Christ from their list of qualifications for leadership_."

This feels very undemocratic to me. Surely a group formed for religious reasons has the right to restrict its leadership (we're not talking here about ordinary membership) to those who hold the same beliefs.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Though what you're saying here makes sense (and is believable) something is going on in universities that sounds dangerous to me.
> 
> The NYTimes has an article on how academic bodies are insisting that religious organization be *required* to open their leadership to anyone, of any faith.
> 
> ...


The thing here about the universities is that they are not private. If they accepted only students belonging to their own denominations AND did not take any public funds in the form of student loans and other government subsidies, they'd have no problem. But with government money comes the restriction that they can't discriminate. They may have formed for like religious reasons but they should have kept it that way...as Bob Jones and Liberty universities have. Because they are privately funded, they are even allowed to prohibit interracial dating, dictate what female students may wear, even the length of a woman's hair.

We had the same problem a few years ago with the Citadel and Virginia Military Academy admitting female students. VMI was state funded but to keep women out, they stopped accepting state money. No problem. It's still all male.

The Citadel, however, was not just state funded...it is state OWNED. By that fact (no way for it to go private) it lost -7- lawsuits trying to keep out women. Those were lawsuits that tax money paid for...which didn't sit well with those of us paying those taxes. Today the Citadel is co-ed.

Go private and those schools would have no problem and those suing them would have no standing.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Me, Me. I'm the other carnival woman.


SQM said:


> I only know of one carnival woman. Who is the other? What a humdrum life I have led.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> Me, Me. I'm the other carnival woman.


And a very cute one, at that.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> The thing here about the universities is that they are not private. If they accepted only students belonging to their own denominations AND did not take any public funds in the form of student loans and other government subsidies, they'd have no problem. But with government money comes the restriction that they can't discriminate. They may have formed for like religious reasons but they should have kept it that way...as Bob Jones and Liberty universities have. Because they are privately funded, they are even allowed to prohibit interracial dating, dictate what female students may wear, even the length of a woman's hair.
> 
> We had the same problem a few years ago with the Citadel and Virginia Military Academy admitting female students. VMI was state funded but to keep women out, they stopped accepting state money. No problem. It's still all male.
> 
> ...


I understand the part about funding. Jewish schools around here will accept non-Jewish students in order to qualify for federal funds.

What got me was the insistence that the *leadership* of the group had to be open to everyone. The feds never forced Jewish schools to hire Christian principals.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I understand the part about funding. Jewish schools around here will accept non-Jewish students in order to qualify for federal funds.
> 
> What got me was the insistence that the *leadership* of the group had to be open to everyone. The feds never forced Jewish schools to hire Christian principals.


No, but I know the Jewish schools here in Charleston have hired christian principals, office and support staff. Maybe the difference is that they never had to be forced...they exhibited non-discrimination voluntarily. The school here even provides separate accomodations for non-kosher meals for staff.

But then, around here, it's very possible non-Jews just wouldn't care. They're considered only a step up from being black. (Which made things a tad difficult when we had a black Jewish chief of police)


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Did you read?
> 
> _Denmark has just passed a law that will force churches to participate in gay wedding ceremonies._


That's another piece of


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Danish gays have won the right to be married in church (the country has a state religion). However, churches have declined to do so...with NO penalties. Oh gee, that's just terrible that those churches will have to...uh, not be fined, not be required, not be jailed, not be ANYTHING for saying no. I wish you'd stop relying on hate sites for your information.

See, I googled it...countries FORCING churches to marry gays. Result...0. But there were 2 headlines. One read "Gays WIN the right to marry in church" and the article says that churches who don't want to don't have to.

The other headline reads "Denmark FORCES churches to marry gays". I know which one you read.


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## painthoss (Jul 10, 2012)

El wrong-o.

Under the legislation, individual priests can refuse to carry out the ceremony, but they cannot forbid the ceremony from taking place in their church building.

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2014/06/10/catholic_church_not_affected_by_new_same-sex_marriage_law_/1101583



joeysomma said:


> Did you read?
> 
> _Denmark has just passed a law that will force churches to participate in gay wedding ceremonies._


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> I posted a website where I found the information, why are you not doing the same?


Geez Louise. She gave you the search string: countries FORCING churches to marry gays

Why didn't you use it?

But perhaps you are crippled. Maybe both your hands are broken. It could be that you are just bone lazy...

...so I used the search string for you. And sure enough the two sites she mentioned came up. But as you'll still demand that the site because you can't be bothered to do it yourself:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ish-couples-win-right-to-marry-in-church.html

I even made it a clickable link, but perhaps that effort will be to much for you. Oh well.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> No, but I know the Jewish schools here in Charleston have hired christian principals, office and support staff. Maybe the difference is that they never had to be forced...they exhibited non-discrimination voluntarily. The school here even provides separate accomodations for non-kosher meals for staff.
> 
> But then, around here, it's very possible non-Jews just wouldn't care. They're considered only a step up from being black. (Which made things a tad difficult when we had a black Jewish chief of police)


I wish this were as funny as it sounds.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Geez Louise. She gave you the search string: countries FORCING churches to marry gays
> 
> Why didn't you use it?
> 
> ...


Temper, temper. :evil: :evil: :evil:

Thank goodness this isn't the Neutral Bridges thread. You would have been told you're "not cool." :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wibdgrfan said:


> So do you believe that when you die, that's it. Over. Done. No afterlife? I only ask because I am truly curious. That is so different from what I believe.
> 
> I, too, believe that when I die I will be either buried or cremated and eventually return to dust. But when Christ returns, my body will be resurrected (just as Christ's was) and will be reunited with my soul, and I, along with all believers, will join Christ forever in Heaven. I take great comfort in knowing this earthly life is not the end. I will be reunited with friends and family who have gone before me. There will be no more pain or suffering or sorrow. That final day cannot come soon enough for Christians!


if I am reunited with friends and family who have gone before me I will have plenty of pain, suffering and sorrow. Become more Zen-like and live in the present moment.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Don't you read any of the messages? They've been talking to each other, catching up on the people they know in common. It's been fun. If you want to know, go back a few pages and read.


Will someone please tell the Sloth who does not read back, who the other carnival woman is? Thanks.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I was asking for common courtesy to provide a source for the information that is provided. Without a link it is nothing more than opinion. Then if you bothered to read the article for which you provided the link. You would have read it backs the article I presented.
> 
> Churches (buildings) will be forced to allow the marriage of gay couples. The actual priest cannot be forced to perform the ceremony. They will need to find someone else to do it.
> 
> But I guess, I should not expect common courtesy from those on the left as few seem to provide it.


Feeling a bit snippy today? Maybe a nice cup of herbal tea will calm you.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knovice knitter said:


> Me, Me. I'm the other carnival woman.


Oh my! How exciting! What act did you do? I thought you were a llama.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Will someone please tell the Sloth who does not read back, who the other carnival woman is? Thanks.


Just go back one (1) page and look for the llama.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Geez Louise. She gave you the search string: countries FORCING churches to marry gays
> 
> Why didn't you use it?
> 
> ...


The thing is I DO have a broken hand (my right). Not allowed to knit for more than 15 minutes a day and I have to choose between knitting and typing. So I use speech to text and it doesn't do very well in trying to provide links. Which I'm sure she'll not believe but if she visits any of the actual knitting sections, like MAIN, in the last few week, she will see my report of the break, the news of being able to finally use the hand at all and the restrictions on it. And no, I can't provide a link because I've never figured out how to get speech to text to do it properly.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> The only reason people believe in ANY afterlife is because they can't imagine that essential 'ME' not existing. They'd rather imagine themselves in some kind of hell (although they'd never admit that) than see themselves as not existing at all. That's very normal. It's part of what keeps us from walking out in front of a bus or skydiving with an umbrella.
> 
> I don't like it, either. But I recognize it for what it is. Just part of survival and a big part of ego.


In Buddhism we call it attachment and recognise it as one of the three causes of suffering. Ignorance, attachment and aversion.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

brucew said:


> I must have missed all this at our last Gay Take Over The World meeting. There is no Gay Agenda but there sure seems to be a fundamental Christian agenda.
> When my partner and I got married last summer we only used places that were Gay friendly. If a company does not want to do business with us then I will not give them my hard earned money. There are a lot of businesses that are more than happy to support us and in turn I will suppport them.


Bruce, I think that many people do not understand how important gay marriage is. It is about equality of all people. They do not understand the problems a gay couple face in many aspects of life. A couple may have lived together in a loving relationship for decades but when one partner is hospitalised their family, who may not have had contact with that person for many, many years, can step in and deny the loving partner visitation and other rights that the hetrosexual couple receive. People do not understand that gay couples are not afforded the same rights and privileges as hetrosexual couples. I know laws are changing in this regard but not all laws are changed. Some people also miss the most important point. Gay couples have every right to live in a happy relationship with a partner of their choice and to have that relationship formalised and recognised by the law of the land, the church of their choice and their friends. Gay couples will not stop living together just because they cannot legally marry. Surely we would wish to go back to the bad old day of not so long ago when gay men and women did enter into hetrosexual marriages in order to appear 'normal'. How many of these marriages fail? Most of these marriages did produce children and the gay partner made loving and devoted parents. I will add in most cases they did because I know some gay parents did not make loving parents due of many factors.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

brucew said:


> I really admire your devotion to your spouse. It just goes to show that true love knows no bounds. I wish both of you many years of love and happiness.
> 
> We did not get married in a church we rented a room at the Unitarian Society and my sister got herself ordained just so she could perform our marriage. We then went back to our house for a picnic in the backyard. My husband's 95 year old mother stood up for him as his best person. My sister's partner stood up for me. We had all of our closests friends and supporters around us for the event and the whole thing was less than $400.00. And it was the best day of my life.


Your wedding day sounds like it was a wonderful happy occasion. A true marriage, celebrated with friends and family. Today, so many marriages are just another 'big event' with an expensive dress for the bride, lots of expensive dining, more presents, etc etc, but often the marriage is very light on commitment between the bride and groom and unfortunately the marriage ends a few years later. Sometimes I think these events are 'weddings' not 'marriages', they are lavish parties that a lot of girls believe they must have. I believe you are your partner have a marriage, with love and commitment between you.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I know laws are changing in this regard but not all laws are changed.


There are still 29 states where it is legal for an employer to fire you if it even looks like you MIGHT be gay.

And there are 1,138 tangible benefits, protections, rights, and responsibilities that marriage brings couples and their kids just at the federal level...that are denied to same gender couples. Even to some who have legally married but now reside in a state where it is not recognized.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Did you read?
> 
> You have to stop cherry-picking your info.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

maysmom said:


> That is Denmark. We are in the USA


She just wants to spread the "love". (Sorry, can't get at my dripping sarcasm smiley right now.)


----------



## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

jbandsma and I are the carnival women.


SQM said:


> Will someone please tell the Sloth who does not read back, who the other carnival woman is? Thanks.


----------



## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

I did not do an act. I traveled with a live two headed cow. We displayed oddities.


SQM said:


> Oh my! How exciting! What act did you do? I thought you were a llama.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> She just wants to spread the "love". (Sorry, can't get at my dripping sarcasm smiley right now.)


Here.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knovice knitter said:


> I did not do and act. I traveled with a live two headed cow. We displayed oddities.


oh. Ex-man never told me he knew you.


----------



## brucew (May 7, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Your wedding day sounds like it was a wonderful happy occasion. A true marriage, celebrated with friends and family. Today, so many marriages are just another 'big event' with an expensive dress for the bride, lots of expensive dining, more presents, etc etc, but often the marriage is very light on commitment between the bride and groom and unfortunately the marriage ends a few years later. Sometimes I think these events are 'weddings' not 'marriages', they are lavish parties that a lot of girls believe they must have. I believe you are your partner have a marriage, with love and commitment between you.


Thank you very much. After being together 20 years it is great to finally be able to seal the deal. We had a commitment ceremony back in 1994 which we spent a lot more on and it was more formal. But that does not compare to being able to make it legal.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Here.


Thank you.


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> The only reason people believe in ANY afterlife is because they can't imagine that essential 'ME' not existing. They'd rather imagine themselves in some kind of hell (although they'd never admit that) than see themselves as not existing at all. That's very normal. It's part of what keeps us from walking out in front of a bus or skydiving with an umbrella.
> 
> I don't like it, either. But I recognize it for what it is. Just part of survival and a big part of ego.


As a Christian, my ego has nothing to do with why I believe in life after death. I think your statement could easily be turned around to say "the only reason people don't believe in any afterlife is because they won't acknowledge that "essential me" is not the one with ultimate control."


----------



## taborhills (Sep 8, 2012)

It seems to me rather silly and even pretentious to attribute to anyone else the reason or reasons they believe what they do. People's reasons for their thinking are too complex to be quickly diagnosed or described from a distance. It seems disrespectful for anyone to speak for another on such topics. Sentence such as "The only reason people believe in X is because[sic]...." or
"Gays really want...." or
"Atheists never ask who created the world...."
I myself will listen when you speak for *yourself* -- but why should I take second hand what you say another person thinks, when I can hear it directly from him/her?
Conflicting views are inevitable, but disrespect is not.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

taborhills said:


> It seems to me rather silly and even pretentious to attribute to anyone else the reason or reasons they believe what they do. People's reasons for their thinking are too complex to be quickly diagnosed or described from a distance. It seems disrespectful for anyone to speak for another on such topics. Sentence such as "The only reason people believe in X is because<sic>...." or
> "Gays really want...." or
> "Atheists never ask who created the world...."
> I myself will listen when you speak for *yourself* -- but why should I take second hand what you say another person thinks, when I can hear it directly from him/her?
> Conflicting views are inevitable, but disrespect is not.


You've done it again, beautifully. Thank you. You have given this matter some thought, haven't you?


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

The only reason anyone believes anything is because they are taught. No baby comes into this world believing in any god or gods beyond the breast or bottle and a dry bottom. Everything else, they have to be taught.

As for being able to say what others want...I can guarantee you that the main thing everyone wants is to be treated as a human being. Religions that want to dehumanize people because of their color, who they love, or their social status teach hate to their children. It becomes worse when they want the laws of the land to reflect that hate.


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> The only reason anyone believes anything is because they are taught. No baby comes into this world believing in any god or gods beyond the breast or bottle and a dry bottom. Everything else, they have to be taught.
> 
> As for being able to say what others want...I can guarantee you that the main thing everyone wants is to be treated as a human being. Religions that want to dehumanize people because of their color, who they love, or their social status teach hate to their children. It becomes worse when they want the laws of the land to reflect that hate.


Sometimes when people hear something they don't like or something they don't agree with, they assume the comment is coming from a position of hate or ignorance. Not all religious people hate or dehumanize those with whom they disagree. My religion treats all human beings with dignity and respect. However, when necessary, we also point out sin. This is done from a position of love, in hopes of bringing an unrepentant sinner back to God.

We live in America, where freedoms used to abound. I'm not sure that continues to be true. And I do fear for where we are headed as a country. Tolerance is the buzz word, but tolerance for the Christian point of view often seems to be lacking. Even on this thread, people are rude and disrespectful, calling the Bible "a book of fairy tales" or other similar comments. All I ask is that Christians also be given the respect that you wish for everyone else.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Well, let's see. The homeless have been pushed out of our state capital by the 'christian values' people in the state legislature. They have to have a pass to leave the area where they are allowed to stay. It is also now illegal for anyone to share food with the homeless. Again, legislation from those who claim to be christian. (and please don't tell me they really aren't. They say so and they're the ones who know)

Oklahoma, candidate for state legislature...we need a law allowing gays to be stoned like the bible says they should.

American christian activists who pushed the law in Uganda that allows gays to be executed plan to push the same law here and say "It CAN be done".

As for your "christians should be given respect"? No, that isn't what you want. You want everyone to bow to your beliefs and never challenge any of the total nastiness that religion engenders. It's ok to be rude, to be disrespectful, to be downright horrible to muslims, jews, buddhists, atheists, etc but let anyone say 'you know, that sounds like the southbound product of a northbound bull' and you yell that you're being persecuted...even if you did try to word it more nicely.


----------



## JoanAbrams (Jan 19, 2014)

jbandsma said:


> Well, let's see. The homeless have been pushed out of our state capital by the 'christian values' people in the state legislature. They have to have a pass to leave the area where they are allowed to stay. It is also now illegal for anyone to share food with the homeless. Again, legislation from those who claim to be christian. (and please don't tell me they really aren't. They say so and they're the ones who know)
> 
> Oklahoma, candidate for state legislature...we need a law allowing gays to be stoned like the bible says they should.
> 
> ...


J- I love you


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Well, let's see. The homeless have been pushed out of our state capital by the 'christian values' people in the state legislature. They have to have a pass to leave the area where they are allowed to stay. It is also now illegal for anyone to share food with the homeless. Again, legislation from those who claim to be christian. (and please don't tell me they really aren't. They say so and they're the ones who know)
> 
> Oklahoma, candidate for state legislature...we need a law allowing gays to be stoned like the bible says they should.
> 
> ...


I am not familiar with what is going on in your state capital or with the Oklahoma legislator's remarks. However, my guess is there are two sides to those stories.

And, even though I very clearly stated that what I want is respect for ALL people, you have now told me that's NOT what I want. How presumptuous of you!

There are extremists on both sides of most issues, and it's quite often extremists that give their side a bad name. I do not judge everyone who is in favor of a certain agenda by the extremists and I would hope you could do the same. (although your rant would seem to indicate that is not possible) Organized religion is not perfect - it is made up of sinful humans. But judging all religious people based on the actions of the extremists is hardly fair.

Also, I would like to point out that I did not "yell" anything about being persecuted. I simply asked that those requesting tolerance show the same courtesy to those with whom they disagree. From your comments, it appears that you have difficulty doing that.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Temper, temper. :evil: :evil: :evil:
> 
> Thank goodness this isn't the Neutral Bridges thread. You would have been told you're "not cool." :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


 :XD: :XD: :XD: You will always be cool in my eyes.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Doing your homework for you, hope teach doesn't find out. Knovice Knitter. Cute avatar. 
'


SQM said:


> Will someone please tell the Sloth who does not read back, who the other carnival woman is? Thanks.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

An alpaca????



SQM said:


> Oh my! How exciting! What act did you do? I thought you were a llama.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Hope your pitching hand is good as new soon. Apologies.



jbandsma said:


> The thing is I DO have a broken hand (my right). Not allowed to knit for more than 15 minutes a day and I have to choose between knitting and typing. So I use speech to text and it doesn't do very well in trying to provide links. Which I'm sure she'll not believe but if she visits any of the actual knitting sections, like MAIN, in the last few week, she will see my report of the break, the news of being able to finally use the hand at all and the restrictions on it. And no, I can't provide a link because I've never figured out how to get speech to text to do it properly.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you Eve for addressing some of the real issues in the gay marriage debacle.



EveMCooke said:


> Bruce, I think that many people do not understand how important gay marriage is. It is about equality of all people. They do not understand the problems a gay couple face in many aspects of life. A couple may have lived together in a loving relationship for decades but when one partner is hospitalised their family, who may not have had contact with that person for many, many years, can step in and deny the loving partner visitation and other rights that the hetrosexual couple receive. People do not understand that gay couples are not afforded the same rights and privileges as hetrosexual couples. I know laws are changing in this regard but not all laws are changed. Some people also miss the most important point. Gay couples have every right to live in a happy relationship with a partner of their choice and to have that relationship formalised and recognised by the law of the land, the church of their choice and their friends. Gay couples will not stop living together just because they cannot legally marry. Surely we would wish to go back to the bad old day of not so long ago when gay men and women did enter into hetrosexual marriages in order to appear 'normal'. How many of these marriages fail? Most of these marriages did produce children and the gay partner made loving and devoted parents. I will add in most cases they did because I know some gay parents did not make loving parents due of many factors.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Agreed. Many good wishes to you all.



EveMCooke said:


> Your wedding day sounds like it was a wonderful happy occasion. A true marriage, celebrated with friends and family. Today, so many marriages are just another 'big event' with an expensive dress for the bride, lots of expensive dining, more presents, etc etc, but often the marriage is very light on commitment between the bride and groom and unfortunately the marriage ends a few years later. Sometimes I think these events are 'weddings' not 'marriages', they are lavish parties that a lot of girls believe they must have. I believe you are your partner have a marriage, with love and commitment between you.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You point out how much still needs to be done. Soon, I hope.



jbandsma said:


> There are still 29 states where it is legal for an employer to fire you if it even looks like you MIGHT be gay.
> 
> And there are 1,138 tangible benefits, protections, rights, and responsibilities that marriage brings couples and their kids just at the federal level...that are denied to same gender couples. Even to some who have legally married but now reside in a state where it is not recognized.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My guess is she never will. She is mentally unable to use reason rather than rote.



maysmom said:


> joeysomma said:
> 
> 
> > Did you read?
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Much happiness. Proud to know you.



brucew said:


> Thank you very much. After being together 20 years it is great to finally be able to seal the deal. We had a commitment ceremony back in 1994 which we spent a lot more on and it was more formal. But that does not compare to being able to make it legal.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Bravo. Rules for discussion.



taborhills said:


> It seems to me rather silly and even pretentious to attribute to anyone else the reason or reasons they believe what they do. People's reasons for their thinking are too complex to be quickly diagnosed or described from a distance. It seems disrespectful for anyone to speak for another on such topics. Sentence such as "The only reason people believe in X is because[sic]...." or
> "Gays really want...." or
> "Atheists never ask who created the world...."
> I myself will listen when you speak for *yourself* -- but why should I take second hand what you say another person thinks, when I can hear it directly from him/her?
> Conflicting views are inevitable, but disrespect is not.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No laughs here. So sad.



jbandsma said:


> Well, let's see. The homeless have been pushed out of our state capital by the 'christian values' people in the state legislature. They have to have a pass to leave the area where they are allowed to stay. It is also now illegal for anyone to share food with the homeless. Again, legislation from those who claim to be christian. (and please don't tell me they really aren't. They say so and they're the ones who know)
> 
> Oklahoma, candidate for state legislature...we need a law allowing gays to be stoned like the bible says they should.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It appears that everything except private thoughts are possible with God.



Wibdgrfan said:


> I am not familiar with what is going on in your state capital or with the Oklahoma legislator's remarks. However, my guess is there are two sides to those stories.
> 
> And, even though I very clearly stated that what I want is respect for ALL people, you have now told me that's NOT what I want. How presumptuous of you!
> 
> ...


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

I love my wife, even if this makes me a lesbian. So be it, the person counts. Everybody should be able to marry who he/she loves. No matter if this person is same sex, same coulor, same religion as long as they love and respect each other.


----------



## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

We get told that Cain and Abel were their kids, but the bible doesn't say girls were "begat" because, guess what, girls aren't important. So I assumed they, or the one who didn't get murdered by the other, had sex and kids with their sisters or their mother --- but who cares what people get up to in a bunch of Jewish or other nationalities' fairy-tales, anyway.

Cleopatra was the descendant of 5 or 6 generations of brother/sister matings. Only the pharaohs' immediate family was god-like enough to deign to reproduce with. Don't know how they got around the issue of Cleopatra having a kid with that Roman. She had about 5 kids in all.

All these ancient Jews including Jesus, who never had sisters - it's too silly for words, and speaks volumes about our ethic based on the suppression of women, along with tall tales told to superstitious people to frighten them into giving away their autonomy.

The following is the total that Jesus said against homosexuality " " so it looks as though you can "love your neighbour" any way you both choose, so long as it's not adultery and no-one gets hurt.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

littlebaba said:


> I love my wife, even if this makes me a lesbian. So be it, the person counts. Everybody should be able to marry who he/she loves. No matter if this person is same sex, same coulor, same religion as long as they love and respect each other.


Nice to read good comments coming out of the South.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> And, even though I very clearly stated that what I want is respect for ALL people, you have now told me that's NOT what I want. How presumptuous of you!


Let's see, that respect you say you give to all people? Is that the same respect you gave to the poster who said she is a witch?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Touche.



jbandsma said:


> Let's see, that respect you say you give to all people? Is that the same respect you gave to the poster who said she is a witch?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> I love my wife, even if this makes me a lesbian. So be it, the person counts. Everybody should be able to marry who he/she loves. No matter if this person is same sex, same coulor, same religion as long as they love and respect each other.


Was it hard for you to get used to the idea that your husband would become your wife? That's a big change.

Did you see that movie with Sean Penn, where he seems to be a man, married to a woman, but turns out to be a woman. It sounds silly the way I describe it, but it wasn't at all.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> An alpaca????


I think alpacas have rounder faces and sillier smiles. They're adorable. Llamas look more normal, but I think they spit. Both have wonderfully soft fleece.


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Was it hard for you to get used to the idea that your husband would become your wife? That's a big change.
> 
> Did you see that movie with Sean Penn, where he seems to be a man, married to a woman, but turns out to be a woman. It sounds silly the way I describe it, but it wasn't at all.


I was the hardest thing I had to handle in my whole life. But it was not as hard as to see her suffering with this wrong body of hers. As I said before,I love the person, she makes me feel loved, I can laugh with her, we have the same interests and I just love her. What more can you expect from a marriage ?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> I was the hardest thing I had to handle in my whole life. But it was not as hard as to see her suffering with this wrong body of hers. As I said before,I love the person, she makes me feel loved, I can laugh with her, we have the same interests and I just love her. What more can you expect from a marriage ?


It sounds better than many "normal" marriages. Good for you.


----------



## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Maybe Atticus Finch has something to add to this conversation.....


Wibdgrfan said:


> As a Christian, my ego has nothing to do with why I believe in life after death. I think your statement could easily be turned around to say "the only reason people don't believe in any afterlife is because they won't acknowledge that "essential me" is not the one with ultimate control."


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knovice knitter said:


> Maybe Atticus Finch has something to add to this conversation.....


brava to you Knovice.

Would the two heads on the cow communicate with each other?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> Maybe Atticus Finch has something to add to this conversation.....


Marvelous. But Cory Booker's page?


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

SQM said:


> Nice to read good comments coming out of the South.


Now SQM a lot of good things come from the south. Peanuts, country ham, southern fried Chicken,Jack Daniels, crawlfish, Bisuts and gravey, shrimp ect ect. Southerns can be very warm and kind.

yes alot of nice people on here come from the South ya all should know that. :wink:


----------



## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Well, the two voices sounded different. One of the heads had a cleft palette and a speech therapist came in one day and wanted to record its voices. Another day, a premed student came in and wanted a sample of mucus (she had a little post nasel drip). I thought it was so funny that the student was all interested in the snot rather than the fact that there was a live two headed cow standing there drippin'. One head was dominate and did all the eating and drinking. The other head would mimic the chewing though.


SQM said:


> brava to you Knovice.
> 
> Would the two heads on the cow communicate with each other?


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> You have already returned in spades all over my apt.


SQM
so you find the cells I keep shedding. Take good care of them,
they have good DNA.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> Well, the two voices sounded different. One of the heads had a cleft palette and a speech therapist came in one day and wanted to record its voices. Another day, a premed student came in and wanted a sample of mucus (she had a little post nasel drip). I thought it was so funny that the student was all interested in the snot rather than the fact that there was a live two headed cow standing there drippin'. One head was dominate and did all the eating and drinking. The other head would mimic the chewing though.


This is hilarious. You've given me a great end to a horrid day.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Wibdgrfan said:


> So do you believe that when you die, that's it. Over. Done. No afterlife? I only ask because I am truly curious. That is so different from what I believe.
> 
> I, too, believe that when I die I will be either buried or cremated and eventually return to dust. But when Christ returns, my body will be resurrected (just as Christ's was) and will be reunited with my soul, and I, along with all believers, will join Christ forever in Heaven. I take great comfort in knowing this earthly life is not the end. I will be reunited with friends and family who have gone before me. There will be no more pain or suffering or sorrow. That final day cannot come soon enough for Christians!


Wibdgrfan
Yes, over and out, that simple. What a wonderful feeling to know that evenually there will be eternal Peace. Waste my time with things that no-one can ever proof? I have outgrown Fairy Tales long ago. Loved them as a Child and am not sorry to have exerienced them.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> Now SQM a lot of good things come from the south. Peanuts, country ham, southern fried Chicken,Jack Daniels, crawlfish, Bisuts and gravey, shrimp ect ect. Southerns can be very warm and kind.
> 
> yes alot of nice people on here come from the South ya all should know that. :wink:


theyarnlady
love all of those delicious things and like to experience some very warm and kind people from the south. I know they exist but why are they to rare here?


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

littlebaba said:


> I was the hardest thing I had to handle in my whole life. But it was not as hard as to see her suffering with this wrong body of hers. As I said before,I love the person, she makes me feel loved, I can laugh with her, we have the same interests and I just love her. What more can you expect from a marriage ?


littlebaba
if you took the customary marriage vows you certainly lived up to them. You are remarkable. I wish you nothing but happiness. Huck


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

littlebaba said:


> I love my wife, even if this makes me a lesbian. So be it, the person counts. Everybody should be able to marry who he/she loves. No matter if this person is same sex, same coulor, same religion as long as they love and respect each other.


Yes it is the person that counts, you are a loving, caring, warm person who has a loving relationship with another loving, caring, warm person.


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> littlebaba
> if you took the customary marriage vows you certainly lived up to them. You are remarkable. I wish you nothing but happiness. Huck


You made me cry, at 6 AM, thank you for those words


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> Now SQM a lot of good things come from the south. Peanuts, country ham, southern fried Chicken,Jack Daniels, crawlfish, Bisuts and gravey, shrimp ect ect. Southerns can be very warm and kind.
> 
> yes alot of nice people on here come from the South ya all should know that. :wink:


I've only been to Southern Fla which does not count as the South but more like NY South, Virginia and Atlanta. Virginia is a great state and has great old house tours. When I was in Atlanta, the streets were empty - not a walking town. But I would love to tour Savannah. Southern Fried Chicken is another incentive.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knovice knitter said:


> Well, the two voices sounded different. One of the heads had a cleft palette and a speech therapist came in one day and wanted to record its voices. Another day, a premed student came in and wanted a sample of mucus (she had a little post nasel drip). I thought it was so funny that the student was all interested in the snot rather than the fact that there was a live two headed cow standing there drippin'. One head was dominate and did all the eating and drinking. The other head would mimic the chewing though.


Now doesn't that sound just like my marriage. Tell us about more oddities.


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> It appears that everything except private thoughts are possible with God.


You are correct. God is omniscient, therefore all thoughts are known by Him. And, I do believe that with God all things are possible.


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Let's see, that respect you say you give to all people? Is that the same respect you gave to the poster who said she is a witch?


I'm not sure who you're referring to - I think there have been a couple of witches that have posted on this thread. Could you please show me which of my comments you felt were not respectful? I do my best to respect all people, even those with whom I disagree. But I am not perfect, that's for sure!


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> I've only been to Southern Fla which does not count as the South but more like NY South, Virginia and Atlanta. Virginia is a great state and has great old house tours. When I was in Atlanta, the streets were empty - not a walking town. But I would love to tour Savannah. Southern Fried Chicken is another incentive.


Savannah is a lovely town. Better to walk around there than to try to drive. If you want to go at a good time of year...hit Savannah on St. Patrick's day.  There is nobody outside of County Cork that throws a St. Paddy's party like Savannah.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> I'm not sure who you're referring to - I think there have been a couple of witches that have posted on this thread. Could you please show me which of my comments you felt were not respectful? I do my best to respect all people, even those with whom I disagree. But I am not perfect, that's for sure!


Can't show you because of the same problem with posting links but your reply to her when she said of the afterlife thing that she'd gladly go back to the arms of Mother Earth was:

"I sincerely hope you're joking about..." (don't remember the next couple words) "...Mother Earth".

Not perfect, no you aren't. Hypocritical? Yes.


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

I think it was my post mentioned by ibandsma,. I said after death I a going back in the loving arms of Mother Earth . No joke, that what and who I am.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> I think it was my post mentioned by ibandsma,. I said after death I a going back in the loving arms of Mother Earth . No joke, that what and who I am.


Thank you. I was appalled by the response that you had to be joking about that...or that someone would hope that you were joking about your beliefs.

Even members of the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster don't joke about their beliefs.


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Thank you. I was appalled by the response that you had to be joking about that...or that someone would hope that you were joking about your beliefs.
> 
> Even members of the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster don't joke about their beliefs.


Flying Spaghetti Monster sounds interesting.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> Flying Spaghetti Monster sounds interesting.


They have recently won the right to wear their sacred headgear at appearances in court. I guess some would say the courts were FORCED to allow them to wear their colanders. ( no, that's not a joke, it really happened)


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Everybody as he likes, just curios are they wearing a bowl of spaghetti or a monster hat?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> They have recently won the right to wear their sacred headgear at appearances in court. I guess some would say the courts were FORCED to allow them to wear their colanders. ( no, that's not a joke, it really happened)


Does the FSM communicate with its followers via the colanders?


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> Everybody as he likes, just curios are they wearing a bowl of spaghetti or a monster hat?


An actual colander...empty. Their blessing is "May you be touched by his noodly appendages"

If I could get it to work I'd post you a link but google on FSM should find you plenty.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Does the FSM communicate with its followers via the colanders?


Just about like all other gods do.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Ok, actually taking part of my knitting time type this in:

http://www.venganza.org/images/spreadword/IDballs_th.jpg
http://www.venganza.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/Collander_sm.jpg


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

You can imagine what communion consists of.

Yes, I find their beliefs silly...as I do ALL beliefs in invisible super powers. However, they do not and I would never accuse them of joking about what they believe.


----------



## cathyknits (Nov 1, 2012)

Well, I wasn't going to get involved, having started reading this thread just today but...
Regarding Denmark's decision to allow gay marriages in churches from a couple of pages back:

"Homosexual couples in Denmark have won the right to get married in any church they choose, even though nearly one third of the country's priests have said they will refuse to carry out the ceremonies." 

Doesn't this still leave a full 2/3 of the priests who will carry out the ceremonies? That doesn't seen to me like there will need to be clergy "forced" to do what they do not wish. Someone who wants to marry a gay couple can, hopefully, be found.

Also, regarding needing a belief in Christ to get through to heaven (and I really don't know why I feel compelled to ask) - Do none of the other Christ-less religions have a crack at heaven? 

Don't get me wrong - I was brought up Christian but I was lucky enough to know a priest who told me that even if I had doubts about His divinity I could still go to church merely on the recognition that Christ was an historical figure who did good and following His lead was a worthwhile pursuit. I'm Anglican and, by chance, the priest was a woman... a very wise and compassionate woman whose own faith could take a little questioning from folks like me.


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Ok, actually taking part of my knitting time type this in:
> 
> http://www.venganza.org/images/spreadword/IDballs_th.jpg
> http://www.venganza.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/Collander_sm.jpg


Thank you, I learned something new today. I am not converting. My other question, do they eat spaghetti ?


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> Thank you, I learned something new today. I am not converting. My other question, do they eat spaghetti ?


Yes, for communion. Chianti for the wine.


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Ok sounds like a nice party, they could do worse. By they way love your dogs.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

littlebaba said:


> You made me cry, at 6 AM, thank you for those words


littlebaa
tears of joy you deserve.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

cathyknits said:


> Well, I wasn't going to get involved, having started reading this thread just today but...
> Regarding Denmark's decision to allow gay marriages in churches from a couple of pages back:
> 
> "Homosexual couples in Denmark have won the right to get married in any church they choose, even though nearly one third of the country's priests have said they will refuse to carry out the ceremonies."
> ...


cathyknits
we need more Clergy like you encountered. Nice to read your posting. Thank you. Huck


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> Ok sounds like a nice party, they could do worse. By they way love your dogs.


Odie, the bigger one, had to have surgery today. My husband is picking her up now.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Does the FSM communicate with its followers via the colanders?


Poor Purl
why not? The draft will keep them awake.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

cathyknits said:


> Also, regarding needing a belief in Christ to get through to heaven (and I really don't know why I feel compelled to ask) - Do none of the other Christ-less religions have a crack at heaven?
> 
> Don't get me wrong - I was brought up Christian but I was lucky enough to know a priest who told me that even if I had doubts about His divinity I could still go to church merely on the recognition that Christ was an historical figure who did good and following His lead was a worthwhile pursuit. I'm Anglican and, by chance, the priest was a woman... a very wise and compassionate woman whose own faith could take a little questioning from folks like me.


This brings me back to the questions I asked in primary school.

What about al the people who lived on the earth before Christ and therefore could not possibly have a belief in him.

or

What about all the people who live in countries that do not follow the teachings of Christ and therefore the majority of those people would not have a knowledge of him. I particularly asked this question in relation to the children living in those countries, especially very small children. I asked "does this means that all those innocent children who have not had the opportunity to learn about Christ will be forever dammed into the fires of hell?" No I did not get any answers and it was this lack of answers that caused me to question further what the teachers were saying.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> This brings me back to the questions I asked in primary school.
> 
> What about al the people who lived on the earth before Christ and therefore could not possibly have a belief in him.
> 
> ...


I've asked this recently. The answer was YES, they will all go to hell. That also included babies of non-believing parents, still-births and miscarriages. Seems believing is the only get-out-of-hell-free card.


----------



## cathyknits (Nov 1, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> I've asked this recently. The answer was YES, they will all go to hell. That also included babies of non-believing parents, still-births and miscarriages. Seems believing is the only get-out-of-hell-free card.


But it's not just "believing". They may believe in there own faith unquestioningly. Drives me crazy! 
A friend of mine who is Catholic has two, married daughters - one to a Jewish guy, the other to a Muslim. He says the dinner time conversations between the grand kids is something else!


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Odie, the bigger one, had to have surgery today. My husband is picking her up now.


I hope she is okay?


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

damemary said:


> It appears that everything except private thoughts are possible with God.


Well, it has been pointed out to me that god can't heal amputees(as defined in growing back the missing limb(s)


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Does the FSM communicate with its followers via the colanders?


Only if they're aluminum---

:twisted:


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> I hope she is okay?


Yes, she's fine. She had a benign tumor on her back that she had chewed open. The rest had to be removed and the hole stitched up. And while she was out, we gave to ok for them to clean her teeth. What really surprises me is that she's not even woozy right now. Has 10 stitches that will come out in 2 weeks.

She doesn't do well in a cone so she'll be wearing a t-shirt and her coat when we can't watch her.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Only if they're aluminum---
> 
> :twisted:


Reports are in that there have been some garbled missives on silicone.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Reports are in that there have been some garbled missives on silicone.


I guess so. That material isn't stiff enough.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Rick Perry displayed a ton of arrogance and a good dose of stupidity coming to San Francisco to speak at the Commonwealth Club. He said that gay people can "opt out" of homosexuality the same way a person can opt out of drinking when he knows he has a familial predisposition to alcoholism. I hope Texas "opts out" of him!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Ok, actually taking part of my knitting time type this in:
> 
> http://www.venganza.org/images/spreadword/IDballs_th.jpg
> http://www.venganza.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/Collander_sm.jpg


I'm glad you did. They're brilliant.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Poor Purl
> why not? The draft will keep them awake.


But they're not actually made of tinfoil. I hope aluminum and plastic work equally well.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> This brings me back to the questions I asked in primary school.
> 
> What about al the people who lived on the earth before Christ and therefore could not possibly have a belief in him.
> 
> ...


Thanks to children like you, they were forced to invent limbo, so the poor unsaved babies would not suffer in the flames.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cathyknits said:


> But it's not just "believing". They may believe in there own faith unquestioningly. Drives me crazy!
> A friend of mine who is Catholic has two, married daughters - one to a Jewish guy, the other to a Muslim. He says the dinner time conversations between the grand kids is something else!


At least food fights don't hurt as much as fist fights.

I once heard a rabbi say that it was possible to be a practicing Jew without believing in God. It made me happy to know that.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Well, it has been pointed out to me that god can't heal amputees(as defined in growing back the missing limb(s)


That's interesting; I never heard that before. The correct answer is that of course he can, but what would anyone learn from that?


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Rick Perry displayed a ton of arrogance and a good dose of stupidity coming to San Francisco to speak at the Commonwealth Club. He said that gay people can "opt out" of homosexuality the same way a person can opt out of drinking when he knows he has a familial predisposition to alcoholism. I hope Texas "opts out" of him!


Too bad Mr. Perry can't "opt out" of stupidity.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Only if they're aluminum---
> 
> :twisted:


Not even metallic-painted plastic?


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> That's interesting; I never heard that before. The correct answer is that of course he can, but what would anyone learn from that?


I guess the shock would kill both the amputee and the observer(s)


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Not even metallic-painted plastic?


Now, you know plastic melts!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> I guess so. That material isn't stiff enough.


I thought that was the whole point.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Thanks to children like you, they were forced to invent limbo, so the poor unsaved babies would not suffer in the flames.


I guess you didn't get the memo? Limbo closed down in 2007. (Really...the vatican abolished it)


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Rick Perry displayed a ton of arrogance and a good dose of stupidity coming to San Francisco to speak at the Commonwealth Club. He said that gay people can "opt out" of homosexuality the same way a person can opt out of drinking when he knows he has a familial predisposition to alcoholism. I hope Texas "opts out" of him!


I hope he drinks a whole bottle of Breck and is poisoned.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> I guess you didn't get the memo? Limbo closed down in 2007. (Really...the vatican abolished it)


But it's such a fun dance. Now I'm sad again.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

maysmom said:


> I guess the shock would kill both the amputee and the observer(s)


Sure would be evidence. However, in the TED talk series there's a talk that shows how science actually grew back half a finger. Not reattached...grew back.

Not a leg, but hey, you gotta start somewhere.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> I guess the shock would kill both the amputee and the observer(s)


But that's okay, because god can raise the dead. Not sure that's what I want to say. Resurrect. Not like zombies.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Rick Perry displayed a ton of arrogance and a good dose of stupidity coming to San Francisco to speak at the Commonwealth Club. He said that gay people can "opt out" of homosexuality the same way a person can opt out of drinking when he knows he has a familial predisposition to alcoholism. I hope Texas "opts out" of him!


The way things are going, maybe Texas ought to opt out completely.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Now, you know plastic melts!


No, but hum a few bars and I'll improvise.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Sure would be evidence. However, in the TED talk series there's a talk that shows how science actually grew back half a finger. Not reattached...grew back.
> 
> Not a leg, but hey, you gotta start somewhere.


There was an article in the NYTimes yesterday or the day before about some doctors who are replacing the blood of severely injured patients with frozen saline, so that they have more time for surgery. The patients are actually dead but revive when their blood is returned to their bodies.

Needless to say, that procedure is regarded as experimental and probably isn't covered by insurance.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> The way things are going, maybe Texas ought to opt out completely.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> The way things are going, maybe Texas ought to opt out completely.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## brucew (May 7, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Rick Perry displayed a ton of arrogance and a good dose of stupidity coming to San Francisco to speak at the Commonwealth Club. He said that gay people can "opt out" of homosexuality the same way a person can opt out of drinking when he knows he has a familial predisposition to alcoholism. I hope Texas "opts out" of him!


I wish I had heard about the "opt out option" when I first realized I was gay 45 years ago. It would have saved me years of heart ache and pain. :lol:


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

brucew said:


> I wish I had heard about the "opt out option" when I first realized I was gay 45 years ago. It would have saved me years of heart ache and pain. :lol:


Silly you! Nobody told you!
Are you familiar with the Quatrefoil Library in Minneapolis?


----------



## JoanAbrams (Jan 19, 2014)

alcameron said:


> Rick Perry displayed a ton of arrogance and a good dose of stupidity coming to San Francisco to speak at the Commonwealth Club. He said that gay people can "opt out" of homosexuality the same way a person can opt out of drinking when he knows he has a familial predisposition to alcoholism. I hope Texas "opts out" of him!


Hell no! They need to take him back and keep him there.


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Thank you. I was appalled by the response that you had to be joking about that...or that someone would hope that you were joking about your beliefs.
> 
> Even members of the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster don't joke about their beliefs.


Please accept my apologies for asking if you were joking. I did not mean to offend. I sincerely did not know that you believe in Mother Earth. I completely respect your right to believe that, although I do vehemently disagree with that belief. Again, I am sorry for my ignorance and I shall be more careful in the future.


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Can't show you because of the same problem with posting links but your reply to her when she said of the afterlife thing that she'd gladly go back to the arms of Mother Earth was:
> 
> "I sincerely hope you're joking about..." (don't remember the next couple words) "...Mother Earth".
> 
> Not perfect, no you aren't. Hypocritical? Yes.


No one is perfect and I have never been afraid to acknowledge that about myself. I truly did not realize that people believe in Mother Earth. Have apologized to that poster. I do respect her right to believe in that, although I still completely disagree with that. Naive? Perhaps. Uninformed? Apparently. Hypocritical? Most definitely not.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

JoanAbrams said:


> Hell no! They need to take him back and keep him there.


Oh, dear, no--we don't want him. I just ithought it would be nice if Wendy wins in Texas and Rick goes into oblivion.


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> I think it was my post mentioned by ibandsma,. I said after death I a going back in the loving arms of Mother Earth . No joke, that what and who I am.


My apologies littlebaba. I truly did not realize this was your belief. I thought perhaps it was sarcasm. My error. If that is what you believe, I respect that. I disagree completely, but I do respect your right to believe it.


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Wibdgrfan
> Yes, over and out, that simple. What a wonderful feeling to know that evenually there will be eternal Peace. Waste my time with things that no-one can ever proof? I have outgrown Fairy Tales long ago. Loved them as a Child and am not sorry to have exerienced them.


So many people say all religions and beliefs should be respected, yet you call the Bible a Fairy Tale. I don't think that is very respectful. You don't believe - I get that. But don't ask me to respect your beliefs and then disparage mine.


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I hope he drinks a whole bottle of Breck and is poisoned.


Not very nice or tolerant. Isn't everyone entitled to their own opinion? Shouldn't all beliefs be respected?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> Not very nice or tolerant. Isn't everyone entitled to their own opinion? Shouldn't all beliefs be respected?


No. Rick Perry and the Texas GOP believe that therapy "cures" homosexuality. That deserves little respect, in my opinion.


----------



## JoanAbrams (Jan 19, 2014)

Wibdgrfan said:


> Not very nice or tolerant. Isn't everyone entitled to their own opinion? Shouldn't all beliefs be respected?


Everyone is entitled to their opinions not to their own facts, Homosexuality is not a choice. Evolution is not a theory. Global warming is a fact. Rick perry is an idiot. (Sorry, that was opinion)


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

JoanAbrams said:



> Everyone is entitled to their opinions not to their own facts, Homosexuality is not a choice. Evolution is not a theory. Global warming is a fact. Rick perry is an idiot. (Sorry, that was opinion)


 :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> Not very nice or tolerant. Isn't everyone entitled to their own opinion? Shouldn't all beliefs be respected?


Rick Perry is neither nice nor tolerant. It's not his opinions I object to; it's his actions, which have done a lot of damage. And since his hair is so perfect that it makes him look like the Breck girl, I believe that his punishment should be - well, what I said. I assume I'm entitled to that belief.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

JoanAbrams said:


> Everyone is entitled to their opinions not to their own facts, Homosexuality is not a choice. Evolution is not a theory. Global warming is a fact. Rick perry is an idiot. (Sorry, that was opinion)


No it wasn't. If you say it 3 times, it's true. So you only have twice more to do.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You are the better man. Glad to know you.



brucew said:


> I wish I had heard about the "opt out option" when I first realized I was gay 45 years ago. It would have saved me years of heart ache and pain. :lol:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Not at all familiar. Do tell.



alcameron said:


> Silly you! Nobody told you!
> Are you familiar with the Quatrefoil Library in Minneapolis?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree.



alcameron said:


> No. Rick Perry and the Texas GOP believe that therapy "cures" homosexuality. That deserves little respect, in my opinion.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

JoanAbrams said:


> Everyone is entitled to their opinions not to their own facts, Homosexuality is not a choice. Evolution is not a theory. Global warming is a fact. Rick perry is an idiot. (Sorry, that was opinion)


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Well put :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You are also entitled to use your humor to point out truth, IMHO



Poor Purl said:


> Rick Perry is neither nice nor tolerant. It's not his opinions I object to; it's his actions, which have done a lot of damage. And since his hair is so perfect that it makes him look like the Breck girl, I believe that his punishment should be - well, what I said. I assume I'm entitled to that belief.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Caution. This could start a na-uh, yessir discussion sure to give us all heartburn.



Poor Purl said:


> No it wasn't. If you say it 3 times, it's true. So you only have twice more to do.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Caution. This could start a na-uh, yessir discussion sure to give us all heartburn.


That's what Lewis Carroll said in _The Hunting of the Snark_: "What I tell you three times is true." And if this isn't snark, I don't know what is.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> You are also entitled to use your humor to point out truth, IMHO


You dropped Rita Hayworth like a hot potato, instead of the hot tomato she was. Who is the woman in your avatar? I'm sure I ought to know, but I don't.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> You dropped Rita Hayworth like a hot potato, instead of the hot tomato she was. Who is the woman in your avatar? I'm sure I ought to know, but I don't.


Rosa Parks?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Rosa Parks?


Yes, I should have known.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Rosa Parks.



Poor Purl said:


> You dropped Rita Hayworth like a hot potato, instead of the hot tomato she was. Who is the woman in your avatar? I'm sure I ought to know, but I don't.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I changed to Rosa Parks. I heard from too many people who had sad stories about Rita. She sure could dance and sing, but her sad life touched too many.



Poor Purl said:


> You dropped Rita Hayworth like a hot potato, instead of the hot tomato she was. Who is the woman in your avatar? I'm sure I ought to know, but I don't.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You got it!



maysmom said:


> Rosa Parks?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think many folks are unable to understand satire.



Poor Purl said:


> That's what Lewis Carroll said in _The Hunting of the Snark_: "What I tell you three times is true." And if this isn't snark, I don't know what is.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

JoanAbrams said:


> Everyone is entitled to their opinions not to their own facts, Homosexuality is not a choice. Evolution is not a theory. Global warming is a fact. Rick perry is an idiot. (Sorry, that was opinion)


No, that last is a fact...with lots of evidence.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> Not very nice or tolerant. Isn't everyone entitled to their own opinion? Shouldn't all beliefs be respected?


Why? Just because people believe them?


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Wibdgrfan said:


> Please accept my apologies for asking if you were joking. I did not mean to offend. I sincerely did not know that you believe in Mother Earth. I completely respect your right to believe that, although I do vehemently disagree with that belief. Again, I am sorry for my ignorance and I shall be more careful in the future.


Everything is fine between us, thankfully everybody is different. Makes life more interesting . Have a beautiful day


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

alcameron said:


> No. Rick Perry and the Texas GOP believe that therapy "cures" homosexuality. That deserves little respect, in my opinion.


So are you saying that only those who agree with your ideas deserve respect?


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> So are you saying that only those who agree with your ideas deserve respect?


Nope, I'm saying NONE of them deserve respect just because people believe them.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Why? Just because people believe them?


Yes. People in America have the right of free speech, which includes the right to believe whatever they choose. You don't have to agree with them, but all people deserve respect and to be treated respectfully. Is that always easy to do? No - especially when one may find another person's beliefs to be repulsive. But if any of us expect to be treated with respect, we should be willing to offer that same respect to others.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> Yes. People in America have the right of free speech, which includes the right to believe whatever they choose. You don't have to agree with them, but all people deserve respect and to be treated respectfully. Is that always easy to do? No - especially when one may find another person's beliefs to be repulsive. But if any of us expect to be treated with respect, we should be willing to offer that same respect to others.


Doesn't mean you have to respect idiocy. And especially not just because people believe them.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

JoanAbrams said:


> Everyone is entitled to their opinions not to their own facts, Homosexuality is not a choice. Evolution is not a theory. Global warming is a fact. Rick perry is an idiot. (Sorry, that was opinion)


It has NOT been scientifically proven that people are born homosexual. Someday, it may be proven, but as of now, that is not the case. Evolution IS a theory. It has NOT been proven, but because it is widely taught throughout the public education system, many people believe it to be true. Global warming? I live in Wisconsin - we do not have any warming here.  Seriously, though, weather and temperatures are cyclical. Global warming has not been proven either, but there are some who sure want others to believe in it.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Doesn't mean you have to respect idiocy. And especially not just because people believe them.


Yes, you do respect it. Otherwise everyone decides for themselves what is idiotic to them and then there is no respect at all. You don't have to agree, but you should still be respectful.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> Yes, you do respect it. Otherwise everyone decides for themselves what is idiotic to them and then there is no respect at all. You don't have to agree, but you should still be respectful.


In other words, shut up and don't criticize or say anything that you don't like? Freedom of speech only applies to you? Sorry, doesn't work like that.

And no, I DON'T have to respect something just because people believe it until they show me there's something there to respect. Religion certainly doesn't have it.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> In other words, shut up and don't criticize or say anything that you don't like? Freedom of speech only applies to you? Sorry, doesn't work like that.
> 
> And no, I DON'T have to respect something just because people believe it until they show me there's something there to respect. Religion certainly doesn't have it.


Oh for goodness sake - I did not say "shut up and don't criticize". I have stated SEVERAL times that free speech applies to everyone. YOU accused me of not being respectful, which I have been throughout this thread. Yet, you say you don't have to respect anything until "people show me there's something to respect". So, bottom line - you told me that I have to respect everyone, then you said you only have to respect people if you decide their belief is worthy of your respect. Ummm.....yeah. Well, I don't think that idea is worthy of respect, but now I'm probably being disrespectful. Good job - you've now got me just where you want me - in a no win situation.
Have a wonderful weekend!


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

damemary said:


> You are the better man. Glad to know you.


Thank you. It is great to know you too. Hugs.


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

Wibdgrfan said:


> It has NOT been scientifically proven that people are born homosexual. Someday, it may be proven, but as of now, that is not the case. Evolution IS a theory. It has NOT been proven, but because it is widely taught throughout the public education system, many people believe it to be true. Global warming? I live in Wisconsin - we do not have any warming here.  Seriously, though, weather and temperatures are cyclical. Global warming has not been proven either, but there are some who sure want others to believe in it.


It hasn't been proven people are born heterosexual either. Creationism hasn't been proven either, it is also a theory that has widely been taught throughtout all the churches.
Scientist have proven that global warming does exist. The amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has grown at an alarming rate since the industrial revolution. It is time to start working on stopping the greenhouse effect before it is to late.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I couldn't resist posting this from the SF Chronicle

Rick Perry and the 'ignorance gene'

Don't give up on Texas Gov. Rick Perry. Oh, sure, he made a mighty dumb comparison between homosexuality and alcoholism at the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco on Wednesday.

Asked if homosexuality is a disorder, Perry replied: "Whether or not you feel compelled to follow a particular lifestyle or not, you have the ability to decide not to do that. ... I may have the genetic coding that I'm inclined to be an alcoholic, but I have the desire not to do that, and I look at the homosexual issue the same way."

Some will hear those remarks - and their absolute disconnection from scientific research about sexual orientation - and conclude that Perry is hopelessly ignorant.

He is not.

One is not born with a wealth of knowledge, but it can be acquired over a lifetime if one makes a conscious choice to overcome ignorance.

Unlike the highly dubious "reparative therapy" that tries to reshape one's innate attractions, ignorant instincts can be conquered fairly easily through an open mind and a review of credible research that affirms that homosexuality is neither a choice nor defined by lifestyle.

Great universities - including a very fine one in Austin, Texas - are devoted to helping those who realize that enlightenment is a choice.

We wish you the best in your struggle, Governor.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I couldn't resist posting this from the SF Chronicle
> 
> Rick Perry and the 'ignorance gene'
> 
> ...


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> It has NOT been scientifically proven that people are born homosexual. Someday, it may be proven, but as of now, that is not the case. Evolution IS a theory. It has NOT been proven, but because it is widely taught throughout the public education system, many people believe it to be true. Global warming? I live in Wisconsin - we do not have any warming here.  Seriously, though, weather and temperatures are cyclical. Global warming has not been proven either, but there are some who sure want others to believe in it.


Do you remember when you chose to be straight?


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

brucew said:


> It hasn't been proven people are born heterosexual either. Creationism hasn't been proven either, it is also a theory that has widely been taught throughtout all the churches.
> Scientist have proven that global warming does exist. The amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has grown at an alarming rate since the industrial revolution. It is time to start working on stopping the greenhouse effect before it is to late.


If creation and evolution are both theories, why do evolutionists refuse to allow the theory of creation to be taught in most schools? My children went to a Christian school where they were presented with both theories. If both theories are presented, people can then make an informed choice. Why are those who discount creation so afraid to present it as another theory?

While science may not have proven that people are born heterosexual, is it because no one has ever thought to study it? The human body makes it quite obvious how sexual function is to work.

The verdict is still out on so-called global warming. Scientists are not all in agreement. In the meantime, we all should do whatever we can to care for our environment.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


An opinion piece in one of the most liberal newspapers in America is not exactly authoritative or truthful.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Do you remember when you chose to be straight?


You are making assumptions.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> Yes, you do respect it. Otherwise everyone decides for themselves what is idiotic to them and then there is no respect at all. You don't have to agree, but you should still be respectful.


Do you really believe you have to respect idiocy? You can respect the person without respecting his/her idiotic opinions. Surely some things don't deserve respect, or else the word "respect" is meaningless.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

alcameron said:


> Oh, dear, no--we don't want him. I just ithought it would be nice if Wendy wins in Texas and Rick goes into oblivion.


alcameron
I lift a glass to that.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Do you really believe you have to respect idiocy? You can respect the person without respecting his/her idiotic opinions. Surely some things don't deserve respect, or else the word "respect" is meaningless.


Yes, I mean to respect the person and their right to their belief/opinion. Even if I think an idea is complete lunacy, I can still be respectful of the person, by listening politely and by not using derogatory names or words. I can ask respectful questions and politely explain why I disagree.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

alcameron said:


> Rick Perry displayed a ton of arrogance and a good dose of stupidity coming to San Francisco to speak at the Commonwealth Club. He said that gay people can "opt out" of homosexuality the same way a person can opt out of drinking when he knows he has a familial predisposition to alcoholism. I hope Texas "opts out" of him!


alcameron 
Perry, McCain, Graham and a slew of others are ripe for "the Home". If they stay in for a while we will be in nothing but trouble. Some are looking desperately to get into the next War
and Perry is looking for one on our Soil. His need to disrespect others will start the Fight. Who on Earth keeps voting for these idiots?


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

Wibdgrfan said:


> If creation and evolution are both theories, why do evolutionists refuse to allow the theory of creation to be taught in most schools? My children went to a Christian school where they were presented with both theories. If both theories are presented, people can then make an informed choice. Why are those who discount creation so afraid to present it as another theory?
> 
> While science may not have proven that people are born heterosexual, is it because no one has ever thought to study it? The human body makes it quite obvious how sexual function is to work.
> 
> The verdict is still out on so-called global warming. Scientists are not all in agreement. In the meantime, we all should do whatever we can to care for our environment.


If people feel that creationism should be taught in public schools then shouldn't evolution be taught in sunday schools? 
If nobody has thought to study heterosexuality then why should homosexuality be studied? Shouldn't it be accepted just as heterosexuality? 
What is it about gay people that make a lot of straight people so scared that they want to change us?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> If creation and evolution are both theories, why do evolutionists refuse to allow the theory of creation to be taught in most schools? My children went to a Christian school where they were presented with both theories. If both theories are presented, people can then make an informed choice. Why are those who discount creation so afraid to present it as another theory?
> 
> While science may not have proven that people are born heterosexual, is it because no one has ever thought to study it? The human body makes it quite obvious how sexual function is to work.
> 
> The verdict is still out on so-called global warming. Scientists are not all in agreement. In the meantime, we all should do whatever we can to care for our environment.


The word "theory" as used in science is not at all the way it's used in common language. You and I might use it to mean a guess. Scientists use it to mean something that has been tested and studied, using the scientific method (remember that from high school?), and confirmed repeatedly. A prediction based on a scientific theory must be "falsifiable," by which is meant that its truth or falsity can be determined. Evolution has met - and passed - all those tests.

Creationism doesn't have to pass all those tests because there's no way to prove or disprove it (at least before death; maybe afterward you can). It's really a guess, even though a huge number of people believe it. Like the flat-earth theory, it's not science.

As for "global warming" (strictly "global climate change" ), that deserves its own lecture at a later date.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> An opinion piece in one of the most liberal newspapers in America is not exactly authoritative or truthful.


Of course not. But it can be funny, which is why I gave it a few laughter smilies.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> Yes, I mean to respect the person and their right to their belief/opinion. Even if I think an idea is complete lunacy, I can still be respectful of the person, by listening politely and by not using derogatory names or words. I can ask respectful questions and politely explain why I disagree.


This makes sense, though it's not always easy to be polite in the face of what looks like idiocy.

Have you been to the Neutral Bridges thread? Everyone there is expected to be polite.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

brucew said:


> If people feel that creationism should be taught in public schools then shouldn't evolution be taught in sunday schools?
> If nobody has thought to study heterosexuality then why should homosexuality be studied? Shouldn't it be accepted just as heterosexuality?
> What is it about gay people that make a lot of straight people so scared that they want to change us?


Haven't you looked in a mirror? See how different you look, how much scarier than the rest of us?

No? Oh, okay, never mind.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Nope, I'm saying NONE of them deserve respect just because people believe them.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

brucew said:


> If people feel that creationism should be taught in public schools then shouldn't evolution be taught in sunday schools?
> If nobody has thought to study heterosexuality then why should homosexuality be studied? Shouldn't it be accepted just as heterosexuality?
> What is it about gay people that make a lot of straight people so scared that they want to change us?


Evolution is presented in many Sunday schools and in Christian elementary and secondary schools. What is it about Christians that non- Christians are so afraid of?

Homosexuality has not been widely accepted because people know, deep down inside, that it is not natural. Just look at the design of the male and female bodies. They are meant to fit together. Gay people assume that people want to change them because people are scared. Fear may influence the minority, but many simply believe it is unnatural and/or sinful. Just because someone disagrees with your view on a topic doesn't mean they are homophobic or bigoted or ignorant.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I beg to differ.

Free speech does not automatically qualify for respect.

For example, if I insisted removing all guns from citizens in America, would you respect my thought process? I don't think so and I am too pragmatic to suggest such a thing although I'm sick of reading about a new attack every few days.



Wibdgrfan said:


> Yes. People in America have the right of free speech, which includes the right to believe whatever they choose. You don't have to agree with them, but all people deserve respect and to be treated respectfully. Is that always easy to do? No - especially when one may find another person's beliefs to be repulsive. But if any of us expect to be treated with respect, we should be willing to offer that same respect to others.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

alcameron said:


> I couldn't resist posting this from the SF Chronicle
> 
> Rick Perry and the 'ignorance gene'
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

OK. Do you remember when you chose your sexual orientation?



Wibdgrfan said:


> You are making assumptions.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> The word "theory" as used in science is not at all the way it's used in common language. You and I might use it to mean a guess. Scientists use it to mean something that has been tested and studied, using the scientific method (remember that from high school?), and confirmed repeatedly. A prediction based on a scientific theory must be "falsifiable," by which is meant that its truth or falsity can be determined. Evolution has met - and passed - all those tests.
> 
> Creationism doesn't have to pass all those tests because there's no way to prove or disprove it (at least before death; maybe afterward you can). It's really a guess, even though a huge number of people believe it. Like the flat-earth theory, it's not science.
> 
> As for "global warming" (strictly "global climate change" ), that deserves its own lecture at a later date.


Yes, I do remember science from high school and from college too. Evolution is no more falsifiable or provable than creation. There are many scientists who acknowledge creation or intelligent design rather than evolution.

As to global climate change, time will tell. No lecture needed, but thanks for offering.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I accept your right to your opinions, but they are totally opposite to everything I believe. I don't wish to argue point by point with you. In fact I refuse to do so. Have a nice weekend.



Wibdgrfan said:


> Evolution is presented in many Sunday schools and in Christian elementary and secondary schools. What is it about Christians that non- Christians are so afraid of?
> 
> Homosexuality has not been widely accepted because people know, deep down inside, that it is not natural. Just look at the design of the male and female bodies. They are meant to fit together. Gay people assume that people want to change them because people are scared. Fear may influence the minority, but many simply believe it is unnatural and/or sinful. Just because someone disagrees with your view on a topic doesn't mean they are homophobic or bigoted or ignorant.


----------



## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Of course not. But it can be funny, which is why I gave it a few laughter smilies.


Yes, I agree it can be funny. Unfortunately not everyone is able to discern truth from satire or humor or irony. You can bet that piece will be quoted numerous times as fact and pretty soon people will accept it as such. That is what's sad. And yes, I am fully aware it happens on both sides of the aisle and is no more acceptable from one side than the other.


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> I accept your right to your opinions, but they are totally opposite to everything I believe. I don't wish to argue point by point with you. In fact I refuse to do so. Have a nice weekend.


Thank you. You have a great weekend as well!


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## Wibdgrfan (Oct 30, 2011)

Time to finish my project for the week. I've enjoyed our discussion here. Until we talk again.....


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

Wibdgrfan said:


> Evolution is presented in many Sunday schools and in Christian elementary and secondary schools. What is it about Christians that non- Christians are so afraid of?
> 
> Homosexuality has not been widely accepted because people know, deep down inside, that it is not natural. Just look at the design of the male and female bodies. They are meant to fit together. Gay people assume that people want to change them because people are scared. Fear may influence the minority, but many simply believe it is unnatural and/or sinful. Just because someone disagrees with your view on a topic doesn't mean they are homophobic or bigoted or ignorant.


Homosexuality is very normal for me and natural for me. I was engaged twice to 2 different women when I was younger because that is what I was told I had to do in order be normal. This was told to me by the people at the church I went o which was a christian church. But being with a woman just wasnt natural for me. 
I never said that just because you disagree with my views that you were homophobic or bigoted or ignorant. I am old enough and wise enough to realize that not all people are going to agree with me and that is fine. Doesnt mean people cant have an intelligent conversation.
I do not agree with organized religion but if others find comfort in it then that is for them. Personally I do not believe in hell, the devil, heaven or some supreme being that created us. And that is my personal belief. It does not make me amoral or with out conscience. 
I believe that all people on this planet have some value as human beings and we should treat evryone with respect and dignity.
And until a person has walked a mile in my shoes they should not tell me how to live my life and I will give them the same respect. Others do not know the road I have taken or the obstacles I have met to get to where I am am today and I have no idea about the path others have followed to get to where they are. All I can do is lend an ear if somebody wants to talk about it and offer comfort if needed.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

brucew said:


> Homosexuality is very normal for me and natural for me. I was engaged twice to 2 different women when I was younger because that is what I was told I had to do in order be normal. This was told to me by the people at the church I went o which was a christian church. But being with a woman just wasnt natural for me.
> I never said that just because you disagree with my views that you were homophobic or bigoted or ignorant. I am old enough and wise enough to realize that not all people are going to agree with me and that is fine. Doesnt mean people cant have an intelligent conversation.
> I do not agree with organized religion but if others find comfort in it then that is for them. Personally I do not believe in hell, the devil, heaven or some supreme being that created us. And that is my personal belief. It does not make me amoral or with out conscience.
> I believe that all people on this planet have some value as human beings and we should treat evryone with respect and dignity.
> And until a person has walked a mile in my shoes they should not tell me how to live my life and I will give them the same respect. Others do not know the road I have taken or the obstacles I have met to get to where I am am today and I have no idea about the path others have followed to get to where they are. All I can do is lend an ear if somebody wants to talk about it and offer comfort if needed.


brucew
I admire your outlook and am sorry for what others have done to you in your Life. I wish you happiness, Huck.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> brucew
> I admire your outlook and am sorry for what others have done to you in your Life. I wish you happiness, Huck.


Huck's words are my words also. I think you have come far and would be glad to call you 'friend'. I wish you and your partner all the happiness and success in the future. A friendly hug coming your way. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You are a good person....better than I.



brucew said:


> Homosexuality is very normal for me and natural for me. I was engaged twice to 2 different women when I was younger because that is what I was told I had to do in order be normal. This was told to me by the people at the church I went o which was a christian church. But being with a woman just wasnt natural for me.
> I never said that just because you disagree with my views that you were homophobic or bigoted or ignorant. I am old enough and wise enough to realize that not all people are going to agree with me and that is fine. Doesnt mean people cant have an intelligent conversation.
> I do not agree with organized religion but if others find comfort in it then that is for them. Personally I do not believe in hell, the devil, heaven or some supreme being that created us. And that is my personal belief. It does not make me amoral or with out conscience.
> I believe that all people on this planet have some value as human beings and we should treat evryone with respect and dignity.
> And until a person has walked a mile in my shoes they should not tell me how to live my life and I will give them the same respect. Others do not know the road I have taken or the obstacles I have met to get to where I am am today and I have no idea about the path others have followed to get to where they are. All I can do is lend an ear if somebody wants to talk about it and offer comfort if needed.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> Yes, I do remember science from high school and from college too. Evolution is no more falsifiable or provable than creation. There are many scientists who acknowledge creation or intelligent design rather than evolution.
> 
> As to global climate change, time will tell. No lecture needed, but thanks for offering.


Sorry, I beg to differ. It's not evolution that needs to be provable or falsifiable - it's the predictions made from it. And science really has come up with true predictions from evolutionary theory. But we're obviously talking about different things, using the same language. It's not worth my belaboring the point, though someone else may do better.

But there has already been climate change, which has melted a good deal of the polar ice shelves, causing oceans to rise and move closer inland. If Wisconsin is no warmer than it used to be, that fact has to do with the seas being filled with colder water from the melted ice and not with there being no change at all.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

brucew said:


> Homosexuality is very normal for me and natural for me. I was engaged twice to 2 different women when I was younger because that is what I was told I had to do in order be normal. This was told to me by the people at the church I went o which was a christian church. But being with a woman just wasnt natural for me.
> I never said that just because you disagree with my views that you were homophobic or bigoted or ignorant. I am old enough and wise enough to realize that not all people are going to agree with me and that is fine. Doesnt mean people cant have an intelligent conversation.
> I do not agree with organized religion but if others find comfort in it then that is for them. Personally I do not believe in hell, the devil, heaven or some supreme being that created us. And that is my personal belief. It does not make me amoral or with out conscience.
> I believe that all people on this planet have some value as human beings and we should treat evryone with respect and dignity.
> And until a person has walked a mile in my shoes they should not tell me how to live my life and I will give them the same respect. Others do not know the road I have taken or the obstacles I have met to get to where I am am today and I have no idea about the path others have followed to get to where they are. All I can do is lend an ear if somebody wants to talk about it and offer comfort if needed.


The very fact that you've had so many obstacles and so much unhappiness should be proof to anyone that your homosexuality was born with you and is therefore natural. Why would you have chosen a life that's so difficult when you could have had fewer obstacles if you'd only stayed married to a woman?

I'll tell you how to live your life: with happiness at finally being married to the one you love, and proudly.


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## brucew (May 7, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> The very fact that you've had so many obstacles and so much unhappiness should be proof to anyone that your homosexuality was born with you and is therefore natural. Why would you have chosen a life that's so difficult when you could have had fewer obstacles if you'd only stayed married to a woman?
> 
> I'll tell you how to live your life: with happiness at finally being married to the one you love, and proudly.


Thank you. I was never married to a woman, just engaged twice. The first one broke up with me because she met someone else. The second one I broke up with because I realized that if I married her and I was lying to myself and to her. I explained the whole situation to her and we parted on good terms.
I didn't have a lot of unhappiness in my life no more than anyone else. Just had some obstacles to overcome as does everyone.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

brucew said:


> Thank you. I was never married to a woman, just engaged twice. The first one broke up with me because she met someone else. The second one I broke up with because I realized that if I married her and I was lying to myself and to her. I explained the whole situation to her and we parted on good terms.
> I didn't have a lot of unhappiness in my life no more than anyone else. Just had some obstacles to overcome as does everyone.


Okay, then, can I have my sympathy back????     

Seriously, you did say something about heartache, which I associate with unhappiness. A happy heartache? Good for you!


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

brucew said:


> Homosexuality is very normal for me and natural for me. .


Not just for you. She needs to learn that, contrary to church teachings, homosexuality has been observed in EVERY species. Every one of them, not just humans.

I especially love the 2 male penguins who saved an egg from freezing, hatched it and raised a family.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Oh, and I feel I have to say this:

In science...THEORY does NOT mean "wild-assed guess". Theory is the means by which scientists try to explain OBSERVABLE phenomena.

And don't forget, gravity is "just a theory" too but I sure don't see anyone arguing about that.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Oh, and I feel I have to say this:
> 
> In science...THEORY does NOT mean "wild-assed guess". Theory is the means by which scientists try to explain OBSERVABLE phenomena.
> 
> And don't forget, gravity is "just a theory" too but I sure don't see anyone arguing about that.


jbandsma
I love your insert of gravity.


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Huck's words are my words also. I think you have come far and would be glad to call you 'friend'. I wish you and your partner all the happiness and success in the future. A friendly hug coming your way. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


And here another hug, just for you


----------



## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

brucew said:


> I wish I had heard about the "opt out option" when I first realized I was gay 45 years ago. It would have saved me years of heart ache and pain. :lol:


For goodness' sakes, what were you thinking all those years ago. :thumbup:


----------



## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

JoanAbrams said:


> Everyone is entitled to their opinions not to their own facts, Homosexuality is not a choice. Evolution is not a theory. Global warming is a fact. Rick perry is an idiot. (Sorry, that was opinion)


Heck no, your Perry remark is not an opinion; it's fact!!


----------



## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Wibdgrfan said:


> It has NOT been scientifically proven that people are born homosexual. Someday, it may be proven, but as of now, that is not the case. Evolution IS a theory. It has NOT been proven, but because it is widely taught throughout the public education system, many people believe it to be true. Global warming? I live in Wisconsin - we do not have any warming here.  Seriously, though, weather and temperatures are cyclical. Global warming has not been proven either, but there are some who sure want others to believe in it.


Science not your bag?


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Colorado knits said:


> Heck no, your Perry remark is not an opinion; it's fact!!


Colorado knits
Perry is the King of Idiots.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Good clear thinking Bruce. That's why unhappiness hasn't overcome you.



brucew said:


> Thank you. I was never married to a woman, just engaged twice. The first one broke up with me because she met someone else. The second one I broke up with because I realized that if I married her and I was lying to myself and to her. I explained the whole situation to her and we parted on good terms.
> I didn't have a lot of unhappiness in my life no more than anyone else. Just had some obstacles to overcome as does everyone.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Oh, and I feel I have to say this:
> 
> In science...THEORY does NOT mean "wild-assed guess". Theory is the means by which scientists try to explain OBSERVABLE phenomena.
> 
> And don't forget, gravity is "just a theory" too but I sure don't see anyone arguing about that.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Well put. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It does tie the discussion with a big bow, doesn't it?



Huckleberry said:


> jbandsma
> I love your insert of gravity.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Look up the difference between WEATHER and CLIMATE.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

In science gravity IS a theory. Because in science (since you ignored the rest of the explanation) THEORY is how scientists try to explain OBSERVABLE phenomena. In other words, yes, gravity can be measured...the theory tries to explain how and why.

Please go take a remedial 8th grade science class.


----------



## cathyknits (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Poor Purl - I have some questions:
> 
> If *all* of the polar ice melts, how much will the water rise in the oceans?
> 
> ...


This may help you find the answers you're looking for:
http://nca2014.globalchange.gov/


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Look up the difference between WEATHER and CLIMATE.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Poor Purl - I have some questions:
> 
> If *all* of the polar ice melts, how much will the water rise in the oceans?
> 
> ...


1. I don't know. 2. I don't know.

And 3. to quote jbandsma, Look up the difference between WEATHER and CLIMATE.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> If gravity is "just a theory," How can its force be measured?
> 
> Is wind "just a theory?"


That's the point. Scientific theory is not "just a theory" in the sense that your prediction of rain next Wednesday is just a theory. Scientific theory has been tested and measured long before it could be called a theory. Evolution is "just a theory" in the same sense as gravitation.

Wind is just a Greek god named Αιολος .


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> What is observable in Evolution?


The fossil record. What is observable in Heaven?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I don't have time to read a report. I just want the answers to the two questions.
> 
> I did find this in your report:
> 
> ...


If you don't have time to read reports, you shouldn't be wasting it looking for trick questions.

But matter _can_ be transformed into other matter - molecules are not unchangeable. And you forget that water exists in three forms, so not all the water looks like water. Additionally, Newton's laws have had to be tweaked since we started fooling around with quantum science.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> What is observable in evolution?


Asked and answered. See above.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cathyknits said:


> This may help you find the answers you're looking for:
> http://nca2014.globalchange.gov/


Thanks, Cathy, but as you can probably tell, the real answers are of no interest to the asker. The rest of us will probably enjoy reading the report.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Sherry1 said:


> I am selective about what I believe. I agree about the translations. So much of organized religion seems like big business to me advancing their agenda.
> I much prefer to believe in my own way and practice kindness ,Charity, compassion and so many of the traits that join us together as humans. I don't believe gay people have a choice. They are born gay. I believe there is room on this planet for all of us, all colors, all faiths and the more we learn about each other, the more we will respect each other. If we continue to be afraid instead of educating ourselves the world will continue to be a mess.just my opinions.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Joey
What is there in your religion that doesn't allow you to believe in science? Surely God wants you to use discovery, progress, and brains to learn new things. There is nothing to fear about learning and education. You are an educator. You must know a little about empirical evidence and scientific theory. You need not be stuck in some regressive state just because you believe in God. I think s/he wants you to accept change and progress. Just my two cents worth.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Oh dear, you really do need to go back to school, don't you?


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> What is observable in evolution?


Evidence for the definition of evolution.

Evolution; a change in allele frequency over time. (In other words, genes change)

Without evolution you wouldn't have antibiotic resistant bacteria. Evolution can also be seen in certain species that have become separated into isolated habitats such as being confined to 2 different island.

Oh and time does not mean tomorrow or next year or even 10 years from now as you would want it to be. Time means generations.

Another thing you are wrong about is the Antarctic ice. I am typing this just for you...so feel honored that I'm giving you about 3 minutes of my knitting time and read the damned thing instead of ignoring it like you do anything else you don't want to hear.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/23/massive-iceberg-makes-a-run-for-it_n_5199559.html

WASHINGTON, April 23 (Reuters) - Scientists are monitoring an iceberg roughly six times the size of Manhattan - one of the largest now in existence - that broke off from an Antarctic glacier and is heading into the open ocean.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

One humongous piece of evidence for evolution is the genetic fact of Neanderthal genes being found in contemporary humans.

So far the record doesn't show any evidence of cross-breeding or even the ability to cross-breed. The same as the greater apes are not capable of cross-breeding. (Yes, they can have sex but it doesn't result in offspring)

The Neanderthal genes are dormant and recessive but they are there in some populations.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Was a Neanderthal human? What gene are you referring to? the one for eye color, hair color, etc?


You are so willfully ignorant that it's hard to believe you can breath without a coach. Google it. But of course, it will contradict what you want to believe so you won't bother to read anything.

The periodic table has more then 4 elements now.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

From my niece's chemistry book (when she was in 10th grade...she's now working on her doctorate so that'll give you an idea of the time frame)

When a molecule LOSES hydrogen atoms (as opposed to hydrogen ions), it becomes...?


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Did your school teach anything but the bible?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Now I'm mad at myself for tuning in. I put lemon bars in the oven and forgot to set the timer! geez!!
Can you hear me screaming?


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Hydrogen and oxygen can't exist alone? Are you delusional?

I guess it has been a long time since you looked at a periodic table...#1 H hydrogen #8 O oxygen.

We no longer work on earth, air, fire, and water.


----------



## joycevv (Oct 13, 2011)

Hydrogen will always bond with something, even another H atom, same with oxygen. You wouldn't find a single atom floating around of either element. That's why you always find H2 or O2--is that what you meant joeysomma?

I think it is mean to be bashing each other on this forum. If I think someone is ignorant I wouldn't want to be cruel enough to say so. I think we can civilly state our opinions without being demeaning to others. Chances are you don't know everything either! As the Dalai Lama said "Kindness is my religion."


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

If you can't find a single atom, how was it possible to find their properties and list them? And if there are no single atoms, then there's no way to bond with anything else. Good grief.

As for ignorance, it can be cured. Sticking to it willfully is a crime against humanity.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Idiots oppose it?



joeysomma said:


> What is observable in Evolution?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I have no time or interest in your questions.



joeysomma said:


> I don't have time to read a report. I just want the answers to the two questions.
> 
> I did find this in your report:
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> 1. I don't know. 2. I don't know.
> 
> And 3. to quote jbandsma, Look up the difference between WEATHER and CLIMATE.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Joey
> What is there in your religion that doesn't allow you to believe in science? Surely God wants you to use discovery, progress, and brains to learn new things. There is nothing to fear about learning and education. You are an educator. You must know a little about empirical evidence and scientific theory. You need not be stuck in some regressive state just because you believe in God. I think s/he wants you to accept change and progress. Just my two cents worth.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think it's time to ignore arguments for argument sake. No more for me.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Did your school teach anything but the bible?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm crying.



alcameron said:


> Now I'm mad at myself for tuning in. I put lemon bars in the oven and forgot to set the timer! geez!!
> Can you hear me screaming?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Fossil record is past history. What is observable now?
> 
> I will answer my own question. There is nothing observable now! there are no organisms changing to a different organism. Dogs are still dogs, birds are still birds, they may change in appearance a bit. Such as Darwin's birds, but they were always birds.
> 
> ...


Yet you have strong belief in heaven but none in evolution. That's fine. But then theories based on faith, like creation or intelligent design, should not be pushed as scientific ones.

Evolutionary change is rarely visible in one person's lifetime, except for bacteria that become resistant to some antibiotics, and similar sized organisms. It took millions of years for organisms to take the forms they have now, so we may have to wait that long for you to observe change. But the fossil record - history, of course - lets us keep track of change over millennia, not over your lifetime. Knowing the past helps us predict the future.

You don't even know what heaven was like in the past, yet you plan to be there in the future, don't you.

And why should one organism change to another, like dogs to cats or fish to snakes? They'd more likely change to something new that is better able to survive in the environment. My guess: that may happen if climate change eventually becomes drastic enough to turn Wisconsin into Florida. (Okay, I'm exaggerating a little, but you probably won't get to see that, either, except by looking down from heaven.)


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The 3 forms of water is still water. Molecules are changed in chemical reactions. Still every atom is accounted for in the chemical equation.


You simply asked where all that extra water is coming from. It's probably already here, and given hot enough climate, there will be chemical reactions.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joycevv said:


> Hydrogen will always bond with something, even another H atom, same with oxygen. You wouldn't find a single atom floating around of either element. That's why you always find H2 or O2--is that what you meant joeysomma?
> 
> I think it is mean to be bashing each other on this forum. If I think someone is ignorant I wouldn't want to be cruel enough to say so. I think we can civilly state our opinions without being demeaning to others. Chances are you don't know everything either! As the Dalai Lama said "Kindness is my religion."


Have you been to the Neutral Bridges thread? It's a rule there to be nice to everybody. It's one of the dullest threads around, but I promised a couple of people I'd stay, so I will, until I can't stay awake any more.

As for the bashing, if someone who is ignorant chooses to try to tell you that you're the ignorant one, wouldn't you want to correct her? And if she continues to try and continues to be ignorant, wouldn't you become frustrated enough at times to be a little unkind?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> You are right. As a high school Chemistry teacher, my method of teaching is to someone who understands the basic terms of science. Here ends the Chemistry class!
> 
> This website will explain how the periodic table is used in Science.
> 
> http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/


In games?

Why wouldn't you suggest a graduate text? I'm sure that would give a better picture of how it's used in science. You seem to have science confused with teaching elementary science to kids. Real working scientists don't play Bingo with the universe.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I am flattered you opened it. It was the first site I found that explained the periodic table in Jr or Sr high terminology.
> 
> FYI: I did not take any graduate work in Chemistry. My only graduate work was in Education.


I barely did any undergraduate work in chemistry. But that website shows nothing about science. It's kind of cute, and I may go back to check out the games, but science it ain't.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> And why should one organism change to another, like dogs to cats or fish to snakes? My understanding is that this is evolution.
> 
> They'd more likely change to something new that is better able to survive in the environment. This is a mutation not evolution. I believe that bacteria mutate to become drug resistant. I believe that animals mutate either by selective breeding or inbreeding. A sheep will still be a sheep. A dog will still be a dog.


They'd more likely change to something new that is better able to survive in the environment. This is a mutation not evolution. This is survival of the fit. Mutations breed true and change the gene pool. Why isn't that evolution? But, again, changes from one four-legged earth-bound mammal to another is not what evolution is about.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> It is the basis of Chemistry and Physics. If you know nothing about the building blocks of Science you will never be able use them to understand how we can use science to better ourselves.


Now that's straight from an education text. I know enough about the periodic table and how to balance chemical equations, but that will never allow me to actually use science to better myself. I don't know about you.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Do you mean Evolution did not start with one cell and evolve over billions and billions of years to become humans?


Very funny.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Then, where and when did evolution start? What did it start with?


I'll answer a question with a question: If God created the world, what was he doing before that first day?


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> It is the basis of Chemistry and Physics. If you know nothing about the building blocks of Science you will never be able use them to understand how we can use science to better ourselves.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Then, where and when did evolution start? What did it start with?


Abiogenesis has nothing to do with evolution. You should know that.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The real point here is that we are fine with joey's beliefs......for her. We don't share those beliefs for us. I am insulted by her lessons.



Poor Purl said:


> Yet you have strong belief in heaven but none in evolution. That's fine. But then theories based on faith, like creation or intelligent design, should not be pushed as scientific ones.
> 
> Evolutionary change is rarely visible in one person's lifetime, except for bacteria that become resistant to some antibiotics, and similar sized organisms. It took millions of years for organisms to take the forms they have now, so we may have to wait that long for you to observe change. But the fossil record - history, of course - lets us keep track of change over millennia, not over your lifetime. Knowing the past helps us predict the future.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Now that's straight from an education text. I know enough about the periodic table and how to balance chemical equations, but that will never allow me to actually use science to better myself. I don't know about you.


Don't you really?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Yes, very much so. Why would you ask?



joeysomma said:


> Are you sure you believe in science??????


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for sharing Purl.



Poor Purl said:


> Yet you have strong belief in heaven but none in evolution. That's fine. But then theories based on faith, like creation or intelligent design, should not be pushed as scientific ones.
> 
> Evolutionary change is rarely visible in one person's lifetime, except for bacteria that become resistant to some antibiotics, and similar sized organisms. It took millions of years for organisms to take the forms they have now, so we may have to wait that long for you to observe change. But the fossil record - history, of course - lets us keep track of change over millennia, not over your lifetime. Knowing the past helps us predict the future.
> 
> ...


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Abiogenesis has nothing to do with evolution.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I just read that they have discovered an ocean in the core of the earth....or something like that.



Poor Purl said:


> You simply asked where all that extra water is coming from. It's probably already here, and given hot enough climate, there will be chemical reactions.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I didn't say *you* had to use. Anyone who wants to use science has to start with the basics.


God dun it don't cut it.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl, if you're up to it I can send you the mathematical refutation of the Noachian flood.

Short version? It would take 3 biospheres of water to flood the earth to the depth the bible says. (a biosphere is the amount...TOTAL amount...of all the water in all its forms on the planet)


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Excellent.



jbandsma said:


> Poor Purl, if you're up to it I can send you the mathematical refutation of the Noachian flood.
> 
> Short version? It would take 3 biospheres of water to flood the earth to the depth the bible says. (a biosphere is the amount...TOTAL amount...of all the water in all its forms on the planet)


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> He always was. Eternity past, present, and future.
> 
> Now your answer to my question.
> 
> So you log off instead of answering my question, If you did have answer, you might have to admit in either creation or intelligent design.


I asked what he was doing, not whether he existed. I was called into another room - i.e., life interrupted this conversation between two equally unknowing people. I don't know the answer to your question; do you know the answer to mine? If I told you 
"From the beginning of time and creativity
There existed the force of relativity
Pi r square and minus ten is rooted only when
The solar system in one light year
Make the Hayden planetarium disappear
So if Mt Everest doesn't move
I am positive that it will prove...."
Would you be satisfied? Anyway, I'm off again.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> joeysomma said:
> 
> 
> > It is the basis of Chemistry and Physics. If you know nothing about the building blocks of Science you will never be able use them to understand how we can use science to better ourselves.


Did you design that laughing one, too? I love it.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Yep, that's another one of mine. One that can be shown, that is.

I've added the paper for you. It's pretty dense but the really interesting part comes close to the bottom with temperature calculations.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh! To see the private ones!



jbandsma said:


> Yep, that's another one of mine. One that can be shown, that is.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I didn't say *you* had to use. Anyone who wants to use science has to start with the basics.


This is quite a startling revelation! Are you certain?


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> This is quite a startling revelation! Are you certain?


You do snark almost as well as I do.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Then it is here!


So? You're the only one who thinks the water that will be added to the oceans is from who knows where?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Poor Purl, if you're up to it I can send you the mathematical refutation of the Noachian flood.
> 
> Short version? It would take 3 biospheres of water to flood the earth to the depth the bible says. (a biosphere is the amount...TOTAL amount...of all the water in all its forms on the planet)


I'm up to it. I could even do the math if I had to. Thanks to you, I don't have to. This is pretty good.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> So? You're the only one who thinks the water that will be added to the oceans is from who knows where?


I also don't think she understands that unlike the Arctic polar cap, Antarctica is NOT just ice. There is actual land under all that cold stuff. So while the Arctic didn't even completely freeze this past winter...some ways were found to be completely open...that won't happen in Antarctica. You might even find flowers and grasses growing if the warming trend continues. And you can tolerate the smell of all the dead penguins.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Yep, that's another one of mine. One that can be shown, that is.
> 
> I've added the paper for you. It's pretty dense but the really interesting part comes close to the bottom with temperature calculations.


That's so cool - until it gets unbearably hot. I can't read it now bc they're still waiting for me.

Thanks, though. It looks serious and amusing at the same time. I look forward to it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> You do snark almost as well as I do.


But I have to steal your pictures to do it right.

Still, I'm pretty good at The Hunting of the Snark.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> I also don't think she understands that unlike the Arctic polar cap, Antarctica is NOT just ice. There is actual land under all that cold stuff. So while the Arctic didn't even completely freeze this past winter...some ways were found to be completely open...that won't happen in Antarctica. You might even find flowers and grasses growing if the warming trend continues. And you can tolerate the smell of all the dead penguins.


Have you read that the melting of the antarctic ice can result in more volcanic activity in that region. With the reduction in the ice coverage resulting in less weight on the antarctic landmass the landmass has been shown to be rising, only by a minimal degree at the moment, but with a more rapid melting of the ice coverage this rise in the landmass will increase.

They have discovered this year that the ice is melting faster than they anticipated. This has resulted in less rainfall in the southern part of Australia. The melting ice is decreasing the temperature of the oceans in that region, resulting in less evaporation and hence a lower rainfall down here in the southern part of Australia.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Poor Purl, if you're up to it I can send you the mathematical refutation of the Noachian flood.
> 
> Short version? It would take 3 biospheres of water to flood the earth to the depth the bible says. (a biosphere is the amount...TOTAL amount...of all the water in all its forms on the planet)


When people spoke of a flood destroying the entire world, or earth, they were actually speaking of the world where they lived. As people in biblical times did not engage in world travel they perceived their world, the world they knew, to be the entire world. Hence, if their world was destroyed and covered with water they assumed or presumed that the entire world was destroyed and covered with water.

When the glaciers retreated at the end of the last glacial period they did not just retreat in one gigantic retreat. The glaciers retreated, advanced, retreated, advanced, retreated many times before they finally retreated to the poles. As a result of this constant thawing and freezing, huge glacial dams built up behind walls of ice, or glaciers. With a subsequent melt or retreat of the glaciers more and more water built up behind these glacial walls until the pressure of the water became too great and the dam walls burst. The result; massive flooding of the area below the dam walls, thus the entire world that existed in that region would have been subjected to catastrophic or world wide flooding.

It is also interesting to study how the retreat of the glaciers changed the flora and fauna of Siberia. During the glacial period there was so much water bound up and held in the glaciers that there was little evaporation to fall as rain. The landscape was more Steppe or open grasslands. With the retreat of the glaciers and the release of all the water back to liquid form, there was more evaporation and more rainfall. This changed the landscape from steppe to tundra. The trees needed the increased rainfall to grow and survive. This was discovered by studying the fossils of the creatures that lived there during the ice age and post ice age. They had discovered that certain animals that existed during the ice age died out when the glaciers retreated. They died out suddenly and previously they could not explain the reason for this sudden demise. Study revealed that these creatures relied on eating grass to survive, but when tundra replaced steppe the amount of grass was greatly reduced. The animals did not have enough to eat, survive and reproduce. They studied the number of offspring that were being born to a given species, and the number of offspring that survived. They could study this by studying the bones of the animals. They found that fewer offspring were being born and fewer still survived. They said, with the mother not having enough grass to eat to survive she did not have the physical endurance to reproduce or to raise her young. They found that there were no remains of very young animals.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Abiogenesis has nothing to do with evolution.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> When people spoke of a flood destroying the entire world, or earth, they were actually speaking of the world where they lived.


I know that, you know that, most people with a spark of rationality know that. People who believe in an inerrant bible refuse to even consider that.

That's why I posted Dr. Leipzig's paper on the subject.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Abiogenesis has nothing to do with evolution.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

http://www.wired.com/2009/05/ribonucleotides/

I know it's another thing you won't bother reading but for others it happens to be a report on the creation of life in a lab from a chemical soup and electricity.

Same sort of conditions that existed to create the first bacteria.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> So? You're the only one who thinks the water that will be added to the oceans is from who knows where?


I think they are missing some water on Mars?


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> I think they are missing some water on Mars?


Don't they need women there, too?


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Don't they need women there, too?


Do you know a women who would have a green face? They are all on Venus

How is your dog lady doing?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Very funny!!! now what did it start with? or do you believe that life came from non-life also?


Okay, you asked for it:

"The woman piaba and the man piaba
and the Ton Ton call baka lemon grass,
The lily root, gully root, belly root uhmm,
And the famous grandy scratch scratch."

If you want the rest, please, 



 . (Harry Belafonte is always worth the trouble.)


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> When people spoke of a flood destroying the entire world, or earth, they were actually speaking of the world where they lived. As people in biblical times did not engage in world travel they perceived their world, the world they knew, to be the entire world. Hence, if their world was destroyed and covered with water they assumed or presumed that the entire world was destroyed and covered with water.
> 
> When the glaciers retreated at the end of the last glacial period they did not just retreat in one gigantic retreat. The glaciers retreated, advanced, retreated, advanced, retreated many times before they finally retreated to the poles. As a result of this constant thawing and freezing, huge glacial dams built up behind walls of ice, or glaciers. With a subsequent melt or retreat of the glaciers more and more water built up behind these glacial walls until the pressure of the water became too great and the dam walls burst. The result; massive flooding of the area below the dam walls, thus the entire world that existed in that region would have been subjected to catastrophic or world wide flooding.
> 
> It is also interesting to study how the retreat of the glaciers changed the flora and fauna of Siberia. During the glacial period there was so much water bound up and held in the glaciers that there was little evaporation to fall as rain. The landscape was more Steppe or open grasslands. With the retreat of the glaciers and the release of all the water back to liquid form, there was more evaporation and more rainfall. This changed the landscape from steppe to tundra. The trees needed the increased rainfall to grow and survive. This was discovered by studying the fossils of the creatures that lived there during the ice age and post ice age. They had discovered that certain animals that existed during the ice age died out when the glaciers retreated. They died out suddenly and previously they could not explain the reason for this sudden demise. Study revealed that these creatures relied on eating grass to survive, but when tundra replaced steppe the amount of grass was greatly reduced. The animals did not have enough to eat, survive and reproduce. They studied the number of offspring that were being born to a given species, and the number of offspring that survived. They could study this by studying the bones of the animals. They found that fewer offspring were being born and fewer still survived. They said, with the mother not having enough grass to eat to survive she did not have the physical endurance to reproduce or to raise her young. They found that there were no remains of very young animals.


So the writers of the Bible may actually have believed there was a flood that covered the world? I'm skeptical.

The rest of your post is fascinating, Eve. Is there anything you don't know?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Have you read that the melting of the antarctic ice can result in more volcanic activity in that region. With the reduction in the ice coverage resulting in less weight on the antarctic landmass the landmass has been shown to be rising, only by a minimal degree at the moment, but with a more rapid melting of the ice coverage this rise in the landmass will increase.
> 
> They have discovered this year that the ice is melting faster than they anticipated. This has resulted in less rainfall in the southern part of Australia. The melting ice is decreasing the temperature of the oceans in that region, resulting in less evaporation and hence a lower rainfall down here in the southern part of Australia.


What effect would volcanic activity in Antarctica have on Australia?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Very funny!!! now what did it start with? or do you believe that life came from non-life also?


What was God doing before He created the world?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> http://www.wired.com/2009/05/ribonucleotides/
> 
> I know it's another thing you won't bother reading but for others it happens to be a report on the creation of life in a lab from a chemical soup and electricity.
> 
> Same sort of conditions that existed to create the first bacteria.


Amazing what real scientists are doing while we argue about whether an oxygen atom can exist on its own and what the periodic table can do for you.

joeysomma, when you finish this article, click on some of the links at the end. There's lots more to learn.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Amazing what real scientists are doing while we argue about whether an oxygen atom can exist on its own and what the periodic table can do for you.
> 
> joeysomma, when you finish this article, click on some of the links at the end. There's lots more to learn.


Worst part for her? It's been replicated in more than one lab.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> What was God doing before He created the world?


The New York Times Sunday crossword??


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> I think they are missing some water on Mars?


I can tell you a few people who are missing some brain cells... but you know who they are already-
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> Do you know a women who would have a green face? They are all on Venus
> 
> How is your dog lady doing?


Odie is doing very well. The incision is dry and clear. She's not bothering it at all but we're still putting her tee-shirt on her at night. Her smile could blind you after the cleaning. Almost ten years old and this is the first she's needed. (
I guess that's because of all the carrots she eats.)


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

Keep up the good fight, ladies. This is one scientist who will not miss the ignorance of the hard line 'the Bible contains all knowledge' adherents when they die out in a few more generations. Not that I will likely be around to see that event. lol Also will not nominate them for inclusion on the Endangered Species Act list.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> The New York Times Sunday crossword??


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

maysmom said:


> The New York Times Sunday crossword??


In ink?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

mojave said:


> Keep up the good fight, ladies. This is one scientist who will not miss the ignorance of the hard line 'the Bible contains all knowledge' adherents when they die out in a few more generations. Not that I will likely be around to see that event. lol Also will not nominate them for inclusion on the Endangered Species Act list.


Mojave, I was hoping you'd pop in here. You probably even know where all that "extra water" will come from.

Do we get to vote on the Endangered Species Act list?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Deborah Keen, I was just about to post your message, but you got there before me. Join the party.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Odie is doing very well. The incision is dry and clear. She's not bothering it at all but we're still putting her tee-shirt on her at night. Her smile could blind you after the cleaning. Almost ten years old and this is the first she's needed. (
> I guess that's because of all the carrots she eats.)


Glad to hear that, scratch her ears from me, she is a beauty.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

maysmom said:


> The New York Times Sunday crossword??


I think, just hanging around and being bored

Doing the crossword would be cheating, since it is said he knows everything


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Odie is doing very well. The incision is dry and clear. She's not bothering it at all but we're still putting her tee-shirt on her at night. Her smile could blind you after the cleaning. Almost ten years old and this is the first she's needed. (
> I guess that's because of all the carrots she eats.)


Your dog eats vegetables?

I don't why I'm surprised. My cat eats asparagus (only the tips) and has been know to tear open a plastic bag of lettuce for a quick nibble.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

[quote=Poor Purl
Mojave, I was hoping you'd pop in here. You probably even know where all that "extra water" will come from.

Comets, lots and lots of iceball comets. teehee 

Okay, okay, in the interest of professional ethics I must declare astronomy is not my field, therefore this opinion is not to be considered expert testimony.

Do we get to vote on the Endangered Species Act list?

Doubtful. Under Bush (both & especially the second) getting any species listed became a herculean task. For all his rhetoric, under Obama, the situation has not changed for the better.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> In ink?


Indelible ink. The perfect use for omniscience.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

Its my turn in the shower. We are on the road to our next set of field sites and staying in a motel tonight. Real beds!
Signing off. Nice to chat with you Purl


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

mojave said:


> Poor Purl said:
> 
> 
> > Mojave, I was hoping you'd pop in here. You probably even know where all that "extra water" will come from.
> ...


At least the rhetoric has changed for the better.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

mojave said:


> Its my turn in the shower. We are on the road to our next set of field sites and staying in a motel tonight. Real beds!
> Signing off. Nice to chat with you Purl


That's the life! Enjoy.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> Glad to hear that, scratch her ears from me, she is a beauty.


Believe it or not, she was a rescue. The woman who originally bought her from the breeder (one of the best, who is no longer breeding) was getting a divorce and moving back to her mother's...not allowed to bring the dog. The husband didn't like her in the first place so no home there.

Actually, by the contract, she should have been returned to the breeder (not to breed, part of the contract mandated spaying) who would take back her breedings at ANY time in their life. In fact, she would take her back now if we weren't able to are for her. We had to do some fancy talking with the backing of the rescue group to get to keep her.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I did not read the article. But man created what he says is life, it did not happen on its own, It took a "creator."


No, they did it by simulating what the conditions were a gazillion years ago. Yes, they had to create the simulation today, but that's because things have changed a lot since then.

And of course you didn't read the article. Yet you're willing to argue against it anyway.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> What effect would volcanic activity in Antarctica have on Australia?


Australia is very close to Antarctica and the weather in Australia is effected by the conditions in the great southern continent. They say that conditions in Antarctica are drawing rain away from the southern most portion of our continent.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> What was God doing before He created the world?


She was knitting, of course.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Australia is very close to Antarctica and the weather in Australia is effected by the conditions in the great southern continent. They say that conditions in Antarctica are drawing rain away from the southern most portion of our continent.


So Australia is where the climate change hits first? Is that what all the fires were about last summer?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> She was knitting, of course.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I read similar articles years ago. nothing new


That's exactly what I think when you post an article on WOW.

Anyway, I think I'm signing off. It's been real.

Good night.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I read similar articles years ago. nothing new


Wrong. New combinations of chemicals and now a focus on creating RNA rather than organic strings.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Australia is very close to Antarctica and the weather in Australia is effected by the conditions in the great southern continent. They say that conditions in Antarctica are drawing rain away from the southern most portion of our continent.


Atmospheric and oceanic data from the Southern Pacific indicate an El Nino oscillation is developing. That normally reduces monsoonal flow across southern Asia and northern Australia, increases rainfall across the Southwest USA and Mexico. The El Nino-La Nina oscillations also affect the Antarctic ice pack, which in turn also affects Australia. Poor Oz looks like its going to get slammed with drought this year.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> So Australia is where the climate change hits first? Is that what all the fires were about last summer?


No, Australia is but one of the places hit by climate change. Antarctica has an effect on the climate of the entire planet. But the melting Antarctic ice will raise the ocean levels and many of the smaller island nations in the Pacific will be under water. Remember, Australia sits down the bottom of the globe surrounded by lots of water. The top of the globe has the greater land mass.

As to the fires, Australia has always had fires, always will, it is part of life here. There was an interesting documentary on these wild fires last week. We have almost stopped our 'cool burns' in autumn to rid the forest floor of debris. This causes the fires to spread very rapidly. The fires will rise to the canopy of the trees then drop back to earth, if there is no debris on the floor then the fires do not have any additional fuel to burn, but when there is debris there it intensifies the fires. In Tasmania the ground was burning. The ground consisted of wet mulch which had dried out in the hot, hot summers, and this caught fire. The trees did not stand a chance. The same thing happened in Victoria. But to complicate matters, we are having wild fires more frequently and the trees are being burnt before they mature and set seed. Australian trees need fire to regenerate, but they do not mature and set seed for many years. With the wild fires occurring more frequently species such as the Mountain Ash were not setting seed for a new generation of trees. They are now manually reseeding areas to encourage new growth.

They cut back on the cool burns because people complained that the smoke from the cool burns was causing breathing difficulties for people with asthma. They also said it was bad for the native animals. We even had shires over the east actually fining people because they were clearing up the debris and fallen trees on the road verge in front of their rural properties. But cool burns are necessary. Better a few days of smoke than a wild fire, and animals can escape a cool burn but not a wild fire. Australian trees burn very quickly because their leaves and bark are full of volatile oils.

We also have the problem of people moving out of the suburbs into the forested areas. These people want to have a 'native bushland setting' and do not manage their land. They allow the debris to build up. If there is a fire it gets out of control very quickly. My ex husband was always raking, clearing, cleaning and cool burning. We never had a problem. The trees near our Kingston house would shed very long lengths of bark. This bark burnt fiercely as it was full of oil. When caught by the wind it would start fires miles ahead of the main fire. I would collect this bark, break it into smaller sized pieces and use it in the wood stove to cook and heat the water and the house. The people who bought the house when he sold it laughed at him when he told them to make sure they kept the build of of the bark on the ground to a minimum to prevent fires. They said it should be left on the ground to form mulch. They thought my idea of using the bark in the Bosky Slow Combustion stove was idiotic. Well, the next year they had a fire in the region and the fire scorched the walls of the house. There was $20,000 worth of damage to the windows, they were very large windows all double glazed. The insurance company said the owners were party responsible because they had failed to maintain a clear area around the house and had failed to clean up the bark from the trees.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

mojave said:


> Atmospheric and oceanic data from the Southern Pacific indicate an El Nino oscillation is developing. That normally reduces monsoonal flow across southern Asia and northern Australia, increases rainfall across the Southwest USA and Mexico. The El Nino-La Nina oscillations also affect the Antarctic ice pack, which in turn also affects Australia. Poor Oz looks like its going to get slammed with drought this year.


Again we have no rain. Tell me about it .


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Again we have no rain. Tell me about it .


Sounds like you already heard that part of the bad news. The changes we predicted a decade ago alarmed us at the time. Now we are seeing changes happening more rapidly than predicted and changes we were unable to predict due to incomplete understanding of all the drivers forcing the climatic systems. The next few decades are going to be interesting from the scientific perspective, probably rather devastating to the infrastructure of our civilization.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Eruption would spew (love that word) volcanic ash into the air. Depending on the size, sun could be blocked and temperature affected?



Poor Purl said:


> What effect would volcanic activity in Antarctica have on Australia?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Bowling?



Poor Purl said:


> What was God doing before He created the world?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

maysmom said:


> I can tell you a few people who are missing some brain cells... but you know who they are already-
> :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

mojave said:


> Keep up the good fight, ladies. This is one scientist who will not miss the ignorance of the hard line 'the Bible contains all knowledge' adherents when they die out in a few more generations. Not that I will likely be around to see that event. lol Also will not nominate them for inclusion on the Endangered Species Act list.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> She was knitting, of course.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I don't think you really read the article. The present judges in this country could care less about precedent, or decisions of the past. The gay agenda (being a minority) are intent on taking over this country. They are doing it piece by piece. This force of churches to marry gay couples is in other countries. It is something to think about. It will come here. Not if, but when.


Today a cake. Tomorrow the world.
oh plz stop the nonsense.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Today a cake. Tomorrow the world.
> oh plz stop the nonsense.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> Bowling?


Yes of course. Now when you say bowling, I think you refer to bowling at the bowling alley and not lawn bowls. I think we were told about that in grade 1. We were told that the thunder was the sound of the bowling balls rolling down the alley or lane I think it is called. The lightening is when she knocks all the pins down, sorry I do not know what it is called. I only went bowling about three times and that was way, way back in the 1960s. My girlfriend and I were laughing at another friend's attempts to bowl. She would bowl her ball down one lane and it would somehow end up in the next lane. The climax was when she dropped the ball on some poor guy's foot. Don't ask me how she did it, but it was funny. I somehow got the impression that we were not really welcome at that place, so we stopped going. It was pretty boring though. We concentrated our efforts on our squash. The things we got up to in our 20s. But, you are right, God was bowling.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You are thinking the same as I am. This may scare you, but I hope it won't.

I still adore thunder storms.

Can't you sleep either?



EveMCooke said:


> Yes of course. Now when you say bowling, I think you refer to bowling at the bowling alley and not lawn bowls. I think we were told about that in grade 1. We were told that the thunder was the sound of the bowling balls rolling down the alley or lane I think it is called. The lightening is when she knocks all the pins down, sorry I do not know what it is called. I only went bowling about three times and that was way, way back in the 1960s. My girlfriend and I were laughing at another friend's attempts to bowl. She would bowl her ball down one lane and it would somehow end up in the next lane. The climax was when she dropped the ball on some poor guy's foot. Don't ask me how she did it, but it was funny. I somehow got the impression that we were not really welcome at that place, so we stopped going. It was pretty boring though. We concentrated our efforts on our squash. The things we got up to in our 20s. But, you are right, God was bowling.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> You are thinking the same as I am. This may scare you, but I hope it won't.
> 
> I still adore thunder storms.
> 
> Can't you sleep either?


I used to be dead scared of thunder storms and was determined not to pass my fear onto my children. I would talk to them about the beauty of the storm and in quelling their fear it also diminished my fear.

It is 4.48 pm on a cold and rainless Sunday afternoon here, so not time for bed yet. I have actually been in bed most of the day because it has been so cold. Down to 2 C this morning and yesterday morning. I came down with a massive allergy attack yesterday and took some antihistamines. They always act like sleeping tablets with me. I do not know what caused the attack but I am only just beginning to feel human. I honestly cannot remember much of yesterday, I seemed to be in a fog most of the day. I did some knitting but have had to unpick all that I did.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I hadn't realized the times are so different. I think you're a day ahead also. It's 2:00 AM Sunday here. I have to bone up on my Celsius to Fahrenheit conversion. Is nothing standard in this world? Silly rhetorical question.

You sound like a great Mom, one with nasty allergies. Antihistamines affect me the same way. I believe in just napping it away. I remember feeling so sick when the kids were little. No chance for a long nap then.

Hope you feel better soon.



EveMCooke said:


> I used to be dead scared of thunder storms and was determined not to pass my fear onto my children. I would talk to them about the beauty of the storm and in quelling their fear it also diminished my fear.
> 
> It is 4.48 pm on a cold and rainless Sunday afternoon here, so not time for bed yet. I have actually been in bed most of the day because it has been so cold. Down to 2 C this morning and yesterday morning. I came down with a massive allergy attack yesterday and took some antihistamines. They always act like sleeping tablets with me. I do not know what caused the attack but I am only just beginning to feel human. I honestly cannot remember much of yesterday, I seemed to be in a fog most of the day. I did some knitting but have had to unpick all that I did.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

damemary said:


> Eruption would spew (love that word) volcanic ash into the air. Depending on the size, sun could be blocked and temperature affected?


Look up the effects on weather of the eruptions of Krakatoa, Pinotuba, Mt. St. Helen's etc. It's absolutely amazing.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

damemary said:


> You are thinking the same as I am. This may scare you, but I hope it won't.
> 
> I still adore thunder storms.
> 
> Can't you sleep either?


I hope you don't adore them in the same way my favorite ex-husband did? He'd watch them from the roof. With an umbrella. Never got hurt from it.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


>


May I add my haha to that?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Exes, in my experience, seem to skate by trouble...infuriating me.



jbandsma said:


> I hope you don't adore them in the same way my favorite ex-husband did? He'd watch them from the roof. With an umbrella. Never got hurt from it.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

I've just come from reading that article on the water found, the underground lake, whatever you want to call it.

It's there alright, 400 MILES down where nobody can get to it.

My grandfather was a water well driller. Going down beyond about 1000 FEET was problematic in the extreme. I think he'd have had a good laugh at water 400 miles down being touted as future drinking water.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

jbandsma said:


> I've just come from reading that article on the water found, the underground lake, whatever you want to call it.
> 
> It's there alright, 400 MILES down where nobody can get to it.
> 
> My grandfather was a water well driller. Going down beyond about 1000 FEET was problematic in the extreme. I think he'd have had a good laugh at water 400 miles down being touted as future drinking water.


That article is interesting, however, to think that there is so much and of the effect it may have on earthquakes. It is astounding to think that we would have our environment influenced so heavely by something we never knew existed there.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes of course. Now when you say bowling, I think you refer to bowling at the bowling alley and not lawn bowls. I think we were told about that in grade 1. We were told that the thunder was the sound of the bowling balls rolling down the alley or lane I think it is called. The lightening is when she knocks all the pins down, sorry I do not know what it is called. I only went bowling about three times and that was way, way back in the 1960s. My girlfriend and I were laughing at another friend's attempts to bowl. She would bowl her ball down one lane and it would somehow end up in the next lane. The climax was when she dropped the ball on some poor guy's foot. Don't ask me how she did it, but it was funny. I somehow got the impression that we were not really welcome at that place, so we stopped going. It was pretty boring though. We concentrated our efforts on our squash. The things we got up to in our 20s. But, you are right, God was bowling.


Do you know the story of Rip Van Winkle, who wanders away from home and comes upon a group of men bowling thunderously?

Early in our marriage, if my husband and I had a fight - a disagreement, not involving fists - we would punish ourselves by going bowling. It cut down on the number of arguments; it was too boring to do often.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I hadn't realized the times are so different. I think you're a day ahead also. It's 2:00 AM Sunday here. I have to bone up on my Celsius to Fahrenheit conversion. Is nothing standard in this world? Silly rhetorical question.
> 
> You sound like a great Mom, one with nasty allergies. Antihistamines affect me the same way. I believe in just napping it away. I remember feeling so sick when the kids were little. No chance for a long nap then.
> 
> Hope you feel better soon.


Eve's time is exactly 12 hours ahead of eastern daylight time. That puts her across the International Date Line, exactly halfway around the world. Now I have to look up distance in latitude.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> Eve's time is exactly 12 hours ahead of eastern daylight time. That puts her across the International Date Line, exactly halfway around the world. Now I have to look up distance in latitude.


And as to the other question, there is standard measure in this world. The US refuses to go along with it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Look up the effects on weather of the eruptions of Krakatoa, Pinotuba, Mt. St. Helen's etc. It's absolutely amazing.


The Icelandic volcano that erupted a couple of years ago seems to have affected all of Europe. Planes were grounded. Maids had to dust from day to night.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> May I add my haha to that?


Sure, but I don't remember what was so funny.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> Sure, but I don't remember what was so funny.


Neither, I


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> That article is interesting, however, to think that there is so much and of the effect it may have on earthquakes. It is astounding to think that we would have our environment influenced so heavely by something we never knew existed there.


 It must do something to gravity that solid rock doesn't do. But wait until the corporations start sending their diggers in. Or frackers. Which I have no doubt will be soon.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Do you know the story of Rip Van Winkle, who wanders away from home and comes upon a group of men bowling thunderously?
> 
> Early in our marriage, if my husband and I had a fight - a disagreement, not involving fists - we would punish ourselves by going bowling. It cut down on the number of arguments; it was too boring to do often.


Good plan Sam.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sounds like us.



jellen said:


> And as to the other question, there is standard measure in this world. The US refuses to go along with it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> Neither, I


Now, that's one I remember.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> And as to the other question, there is standard measure in this world. The US refuses to go along with it.


Is that what they mean by American exceptionalism? Whenever other countries agree on something, it's usually all except America.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I've read several books on Krakatoa. The noise was so loud that it was heard with the human ear 2800 miles away in Perth. An estimated 36,000 people died and islands completely disappeared. Skies darkened 275 miles away. This was the greatest eruption in recorded time. I found it fascinating.



Poor Purl said:


> The Icelandic volcano that erupted a couple of years ago seems to have affected all of Europe. Planes were grounded. Maids had to dust from day to night.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> No, Australia is but one of the places hit by climate change. Antarctica has an effect on the climate of the entire planet. But the melting Antarctic ice will raise the ocean levels and many of the smaller island nations in the Pacific will be under water. Remember, Australia sits down the bottom of the globe surrounded by lots of water. The top of the globe has the greater land mass.
> 
> As to the fires, Australia has always had fires, always will, it is part of life here. There was an interesting documentary on these wild fires last week. We have almost stopped our 'cool burns' in autumn to rid the forest floor of debris. This causes the fires to spread very rapidly. The fires will rise to the canopy of the trees then drop back to earth, if there is no debris on the floor then the fires do not have any additional fuel to burn, but when there is debris there it intensifies the fires. In Tasmania the ground was burning. The ground consisted of wet mulch which had dried out in the hot, hot summers, and this caught fire. The trees did not stand a chance. The same thing happened in Victoria. But to complicate matters, we are having wild fires more frequently and the trees are being burnt before they mature and set seed. Australian trees need fire to regenerate, but they do not mature and set seed for many years. With the wild fires occurring more frequently species such as the Mountain Ash were not setting seed for a new generation of trees. They are now manually reseeding areas to encourage new growth.
> 
> ...


It sounds like a tough place to live. I'm not surprised it was colonized so late. You're always at the mercy of mother nature.

You need more concrete. :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It must do something to gravity that solid rock doesn't do. But wait until the corporations start sending their diggers in. Or frackers. Which I have no doubt will be soon.


Very much tongue in cheek here but if that great lake is 400 miles below the surface and hell is down there somewhere does it mean that hell is not really hell fire and brimstone after all but is actually a warm sunny beach on a lake? I have always said I did not want to go to heaven because I have seen the mob that reckon they are going there and to spend eternity in their company would be sheer hell. I always said I was going to hell because with the sheer number of people who have been condemned there it would be far more amenable. I always said "just think of all the forward thinkers who have been sent there. They have the place airconditioned now." But it seems that these forward thinkers have now installed a huge, below ground swimming pool. They no doubt are using the fires of hell to heat the water and keep the ambient temperature to a warm, balmy and pleasant temperature for us to enjoy. Thanks guys, see you soon. I am also bringing some mates down for a swim.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Very much tongue in cheek here but if that great lake is 400 miles below the surface and hell is down there somewhere does it mean that hell is not really hell fire and brimstone after all but is actually a warm sunny beach on a lake? I have always said I did not want to go to heaven because I have seen the mob that reckon they are going there and to spend eternity in their company would be sheer hell. I always said I was going to hell because with the sheer number of people who have been condemned there it would be far more amenable. I always said "just think of all the forward thinkers who have been sent there. They have the place airconditioned now." But it seems that these forward thinkers have now installed a huge, below ground swimming pool. They no doubt are using the fires of hell to heat the water and keep the ambient temperature to a warm, balmy and pleasant temperature for us to enjoy. Thanks guys, see you soon. I am also bringing some mates down for a swim.


What a lovely picture. I never believed in hell, but now I'd love to go there.

It reminds me of an old joke, too long to tell here and probably not respectful enough for the religious among us, so I won't.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We tend to forget, but we are all always at the mercy of Mother Nature. Maybe mankind would find it easier to remember if she left a bible behind.



Poor Purl said:


> It sounds like a tough place to live. I'm not surprised it was colonized so late. You're always at the mercy of mother nature.
> 
> You need more concrete. :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Very much tongue in cheek here but if that great lake is 400 miles below the surface and hell is down there somewhere does it mean that hell is not really hell fire and brimstone after all but is actually a warm sunny beach on a lake? I have always said I did not want to go to heaven because I have seen the mob that reckon they are going there and to spend eternity in their company would be sheer hell. I always said I was going to hell because with the sheer number of people who have been condemned there it would be far more amenable. I always said "just think of all the forward thinkers who have been sent there. They have the place airconditioned now." But it seems that these forward thinkers have now installed a huge, below ground swimming pool. They no doubt are using the fires of hell to heat the water and keep the ambient temperature to a warm, balmy and pleasant temperature for us to enjoy. Thanks guys, see you soon. I am also bringing some mates down for a swim.


I'm in. Cool, icy drinks for all.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Eve, that could be the same hole that drillers heard the screams from hell.

http://hellandheaventestimonies.wordpress.com/2011/03/28/scientist-who-dug-into-hell-in-siberia-and-recorded-the-cries-of-the-damned-souls/

(hint...not really. it was a hoax that biblical literalists took seriously...like chemtrails)


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It sounds like a tough place to live. I'm not surprised it was colonized so late. You're always at the mercy of mother nature.
> 
> You need more concrete. :roll: :roll: :roll:


Maybe that's why it was originally a penal colony?


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> Is that what they mean by American exceptionalism? Whenever other countries agree on something, it's usually all except America.


I am thinking that would be the case. 
The thing that American conservatives are so proud of is actually identified by professionals as oppositional defiant disorder. Doesn't that figure?


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

jellen said:


> I am thinking that would be the case.
> The thing that American conservatives are so proud of is actually identified by professionals as oppositional defiant disorder. Doesn't that figure?


Oh yes, they are ODD.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

jbandsma said:


> Oh yes, they are ODD.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Oh yes, they are ODD.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

As well as BSC which I'll have to pm to anyone who wants to know what it means.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Eve, that could be the same hole that drillers heard the screams from hell.
> 
> http://hellandheaventestimonies.wordpress.com/2011/03/28/scientist-who-dug-into-hell-in-siberia-and-recorded-the-cries-of-the-damned-souls/
> 
> (hint...not really. it was a hoax that biblical literalists took seriously...like chemtrails)


Ooh, scary. It sounds like an enormous subway station, full of very angry people missing work because the train is late.

I thought Siberia was already hell, anyway.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> I am thinking that would be the case.
> The thing that American conservatives are so proud of is actually identified by professionals as oppositional defiant disorder. Doesn't that figure?


Perfectly. The need to be policeman to the world can't possibly be a healthy one.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> As well as BSC which I'll have to pm to anyone who wants to know what it means.


Is that in the DSM-V? Please PM me.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Eve, that could be the same hole that drillers heard the screams from hell.
> 
> http://hellandheaventestimonies.wordpress.com/2011/03/28/scientist-who-dug-into-hell-in-siberia-and-recorded-the-cries-of-the-damned-souls/
> 
> (hint...not really. it was a hoax that biblical literalists took seriously...like chemtrails)


I listened to your tape several times and I am very sorry but you are wrong. It is not the sound of tormented souls screaming in pain. It sounds more like a Friday night at the local pub when the locals have been bending the elbow for a few hours. If the tape had been a little longer you would have heard the sounds of breaking glasses when the fights escalated and the sirens from the police cars as they descended on the scene.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Perfectly. The need to be policeman to the world can't possibly be a healthy one.


It certainly isn't. We don't need to be sticking our noses into other people's business all the time.

But then, it doesn't help when other countries insist on enabling us. It seems like every time a country is experiences big problems the world starts saying "why isn't America doing something?"


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I listened to your tape several times and I am very sorry but you are wrong. It is not the sound of tormented souls screaming in pain. It sounds more like a Friday night at the local pub when the locals have been bending the elbow for a few hours. If the tape had been a little longer you would have heard the sounds of breaking glasses when the fights escalated and the sirens from the police cars as they descended on the scene.


Ah, but that was in Siberia. I think you'd more have heard doleful balalaika music...and glasses breaking when the vodka ran out.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Ah, but that was in Siberia. I think you'd more have heard doleful balalaika music...and glasses breaking when the vodka ran out.


I was thinking more of the Aussie pub. Maybe the drillers went further than they thought and their drills had come out in the cellar of a pub in Kings Cross or even Northbridge?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I listened to your tape several times and I am very sorry but you are wrong. It is not the sound of tormented souls screaming in pain. It sounds more like a Friday night at the local pub when the locals have been bending the elbow for a few hours. If the tape had been a little longer you would have heard the sounds of breaking glasses when the fights escalated and the sirens from the police cars as they descended on the scene.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> It certainly isn't. We don't need to be sticking our noses into other people's business all the time.
> 
> But then, it doesn't help when other countries insist on enabling us. It seems like every time a country is experiences big problems the world starts saying "why isn't America doing something?"


Unfortunately, too many Americans say the same thing. They also feel insecure if we don't have twice as many nuclear weapons as the next guy.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And Cheney, McCain etc are hawking their ideas on every news source.



sumpleby said:


> It certainly isn't. We don't need to be sticking our noses into other people's business all the time.
> 
> But then, it doesn't help when other countries insist on enabling us. It seems like every time a country is experiences big problems the world starts saying "why isn't America doing something?"


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Unfortunately, too many Americans say the same thing. They also feel insecure if we don't have twice as many nuclear weapons as the next guy.


Not just that, but if others don't live and believe the same way they do. Reminds me of the Roman Empire...spreading their ways at the point of a sword except we use bombs, tanks and drones.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Not just that, but if others don't live and believe the same way they do. Reminds me of the Roman Empire...spreading their ways at the point of a sword except we use bombs, tanks and drones.


And then lament that not everyone likes us.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Yeah, we already ruined Iraq. Which was a secular country in the first place, hated by the taliban for it and had no WMDs. There would have been better ways of getting rid of Saddam than turning Iraq into the quagmire that it is today.

As for Afghanistan? That country was the main reason for the collapse of the the Soviet Union (supplied with American weapons to bin Laden and the taliban). Why do people here think it's going to be any different just because it's us?


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> I think, just hanging around and being bored
> 
> Doing the crossword would be cheating, since it is said he knows everything


Especially if he created it--


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I listened to your tape several times and I am very sorry but you are wrong. It is not the sound of tormented souls screaming in pain. It sounds more like a Friday night at the local pub when the locals have been bending the elbow for a few hours. If the tape had been a little longer you would have heard the sounds of breaking glasses when the fights escalated and the sirens from the police cars as they descended on the scene.


Oh, for goodness' sake--it could be from a rock concert. I've heard much better sound effects from a D horror movie.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Oh yes, should have known you'd be a fan of Rick Perry.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Just something to think about!
> 
> Is Homosexuality an Addiction Like Alcoholism?
> 
> ...


Logic doesn't hold. And if it were an addiction, it would less harmful than the addiction billionaires have to their greed.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

If homosexuality is an addiction, then so is marrying or living with a person of the opposite sex whom you love. 

This will to demonize people for who they have the nerve to desire, or to love or even just be friends with is sickening. It was sickening in the days of Jim Crow laws and even more sickening now when we've learned more that should have heightened our sense of compassion...not diminished it to the point where it's hard to even recognize.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

And no, you're right...I have absolutely NO compassion for those push hate and call it family values.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Logic doesn't hold. And if it were an addiction, it would less harmful than the addiction billionaires have to their greed.


Besides, it was Rick Perry. Who can't even remember 3 things he doesn't like at the same time.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

sumpleby said:


> It certainly isn't. We don't need to be sticking our noses into other people's business all the time.
> 
> But then, it doesn't help when other countries insist on enabling us. It seems like every time a country is experiences big problems the world starts saying "why isn't America doing something?"


But if we don't people will be very upset that the gas they need so badly because we wouldn't spend the money on public transportation is too expensive. 
LOL, we will have to do business with those dirty socialists in SA.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

jbandsma said:


> If homosexuality is an addiction, then so is marrying or living with a person of the opposite sex whom you love.
> 
> This will to demonize people for who they have the nerve to desire, or to love or even just be friends with is sickening. It was sickening in the days of Jim Crow laws and even more sickening now when we've learned more that should have heightened our sense of compassion...not diminished it to the point where it's hard to even recognize.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Besides, it was Rick Perry. Who can't even remember 3 things he doesn't like at the same time.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

jellen said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcATvu5f9vE


Ah, Robert Palmer...too soon gone.


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## Mountain Stitches (May 25, 2014)

joeysomma said:


> Just something to think about!
> 
> Is Homosexuality an Addiction Like Alcoholism?


You have posted some hateful stuff, but this garbage is the worst yet that I have seen. You call yourself a Christian and yet you display so much hatred. You should be ashamed.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Mountain Stitches said:


> joeysomma said:
> 
> 
> > Just something to think about!
> ...


Probably her Christianity is an addiction.


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

damemary said:


> We tend to forget, but we are all always at the mercy of Mother Nature. Maybe mankind would find it easier to remember if she left a bible behind.


She left a bible behind. Written in the hearts of women.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Mountain Stitches said:


> You have posted some hateful stuff, but this garbage is the worst yet that I have seen. You call yourself a Christian and yet you display so much hatred. You should be ashamed.


Where does she get these long rants? Who is feeding her? I do not read them, I just roll on past them. I know what xxxxx they will contain. But then, again, it does keep her off the streets as my grandmother would say. She may not know what that means.

To be honest I think she leads such an unfulfilled, frustrated and unhappy life she believes she must make everyone else as unhappy and unfulfilled and frustrated as she is.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Probably her Christianity is an addiction.


More of a crutch.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

littlebaba said:


> She left a bible behind. Written in the hearts of women.


HAHAHAA, "Bible behind". That reminded me of those stories... Little Rascals? Our Gang? The child would stick a book in their pants before having a spanking administered?


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

EveMCooke said:


> Where does she get these long rants? Who is feeding her? I do not read them, I just roll on past them. I know what xxxxx they will contain. But then, again, it does keep her off the streets as my grandmother would say. She may not know what that means.
> 
> To be honest I think she leads such an unfulfilled, frustrated and unhappy life she believes she must make everyone else as unhappy and unfulfilled and frustrated as she is.


From far right wing websites that most people avoid like the plague. 
This last one was godfather something or other. 
Some that have been shown were much worse.

The home page is here.

http://godfatherpolitics.com/


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> From far right wing websites that most people avoid like the plague.
> This last one was godfather something or other.
> Some that have been shown were much worse.
> 
> ...


Oh boy! It even has all the articles of impeachment needed to take Obama down.


----------



## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Carved in stone.


jbandsma said:


> In ink?


----------



## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

I just got to thinking that maybe the word homosexual should be changed to homogender and same sex marriages should be revised to same gender marriages. Perhaps people who think like Joeysmomma would stop thinking of gays as being nothing but sexual. Some of the couples who were finally allowed to marry, have been together for decades. These fine human beings have developed love, companionship and commitment. It is not about being addicted to sex. My forehead is aching from banging it on my keyboard.


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## Mountain Stitches (May 25, 2014)

DeeBrown

Dude! 6 times? Ya gettin' paid by the word??

Never mind, they're gone.......


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

People who don't understand that relationships are about love don't want to. They work hard not to. 
I want to know how anyone can spend that much time thinking about anyone else's sex life.



knovice knitter said:


> I just got to thinking that maybe the word homosexual should be changed to homogender and same sex marriages should be revised to same gender marriages. Perhaps people who think like Joeysmomma would stop thinking of gays as being nothing but sexual. Some of the couples who were finally allowed to marry, have been together for decades. These fine human beings have developed love, companionship and commitment. It is not about being addicted to sex. My forehead is aching from banging it on my keyboard.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> Carved in stone.


It took me this long to get your joke.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

I have to admit that I have skimmed so if this has been up before, I apologize.

http://www.upworthy.com/she-didnt-think-she-had-a-problem-with-gay-people-but-anderson-cooper-cleared-that-right-up?c=upw1


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> I have to admit that I have skimmed so if this has been up before, I apologize.
> 
> http://www.upworthy.com/she-didnt-think-she-had-a-problem-with-gay-people-but-anderson-cooper-cleared-that-right-up?c=upw1


It's new to me, and very well done. Anderson Cooper seems so much more relaxed since he came out (unnecessarily, because who didn't already know he was gay?). At least he doesn't have to keep running out in the pouring rain, the way he did during Katrina.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> It's new to me, and very well done. Anderson Cooper seems so much more relaxed since he came out (unnecessarily, because who didn't already know he was gay?). At least he doesn't have to keep running out in the pouring rain, the way he did during Katrina.


I loved that it contained the lines about being upset to see heterosexuals kissing and that ESPN wouldn't show that. 
Quite honestly, I think that the whole stripper phenomona is more harmful to "family values" than marriage equality, if anything is.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> I loved that it contained the lines about being upset to see heterosexuals kissing and that ESPN wouldn't show that.
> Quite honestly, I think that the whole stripper phenomona is more harmful to "family values" than marriage equality, if anything is.


I agree, absolutely.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Study: Marriage, not cohabitation, benefits health
> 
> By Randy Dotinga
> 
> ...


Thank you, joeysomma, for a very good argument in favor of marriage equality.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

"But it does serve notice to the girlfriends and partners of these men that they could take a more active role in health care decisions and talk to them about getting healthy, Blumberg said. How intimate relationships affect mens health has been studied before..."

Someone should REALLY read what they are posting before sticking it in our faces.



joeysomma said:


> Study: Marriage, not cohabitation, benefits health
> 
> By Randy Dotinga
> 
> ...


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

jellen said:


> "But it does serve notice to the girlfriends and partners of these men that they could take a more active role in health care decisions and talk to them about getting healthy, Blumberg said. How intimate relationships affect mens health has been studied before..."
> 
> Someone should REALLY read what they are posting before sticking it in our faces.


Not likely to happen. She sees a headline she likes, cherry picks a section and decides to be smug about it. When called on it, or shown that it doesn't say what she decided it has, she'll back off and post something else like it while saying she never posted THAT piece of (missing) "information"


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Also, she missed the very obvious point...that women don't need men to tell them how to stay healthy. No matter HOW biblical that is.

Women my age were taught from the cradle to take care of ourselves or we'd never attract a man. Men are still taught that going to a doctor even if you're half dead is "wimpy" and there's only one legitimate reason to ever walk into an MD's office...needing a prescription for Viagra.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

I thought the very same thing, Purl.


Poor Purl said:


> Thank you, joeysomma, for a very good argument in favor of marriage equality.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Not likely to happen. She sees a headline she likes, cherry picks a section and decides to be smug about it. When called on it, or shown that it doesn't say what she decided it has, she'll back off and post something else like it while saying she never posted THAT piece of (missing) "information"


So now we know what to expect. I certainly didn't expect what she actually posted.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Also, she missed the very obvious point...that women don't need men to tell them how to stay healthy. No matter HOW biblical that is.
> 
> Women my age were taught from the cradle to take care of ourselves or we'd never attract a man. Men are still taught that going to a doctor even if you're half dead is "wimpy" and there's only one legitimate reason to ever walk into an MD's office...needing a prescription for Viagra.










I like your laugher better; I should have stolen it earlier.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> In case you didn't notice it says cohabiting men. It says nothing about gay marriage making life any better.


Nor does it rule out "gay marriage." Wasn't the central point that _marriage_, of unspecified type, keeps partners healthier? Heterosexual couples also cohabit. This article is relevant to every sexual preference.


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## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> In case you didn't notice it says cohabiting men. It says nothing about gay marriage making life any better.


 Gay married men are STILL married men, no matter if you like it or not.
I wonder, do you actually buy into all this stuff you spout and spew?


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I like your laugher better; I should have stolen it earlier.


here are a few you can have


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> here are a few you can have


Truly marvelous. Thank you so much for your generosity.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I like your laugher better; I should have stolen it earlier.


And, of course,


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Xay-Zays.auntie said:


> Gay married men are STILL married men, no matter if you like it or not.
> I wonder, do you actually buy into all this stuff you spout and spew?


I think that's the problem: she still doesn't think of same-sex marriage as marriage.

The following is only a test, but relevant:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> And, of course,


This is going to be a good day for me. I can see that in all kinds of contexts.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Let's see, traditional marriage is between a man, his 300 wives and 700 concubines? No tally of the number of eunuchs involved. Or how many of the concubines weren't female.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

jbandsma said:


> Let's see, traditional marriage is between a man, his 300 wives and 700 concubines? No tally of the number of eunuchs involved. Or how many of the concubines weren't female.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

joeysomma said:


> Since it is not marriage. The only one who has the last WORD on anything says it is an abomination. I choose to believe HIM.


Someone is taking the unAmerican position of disrespecting the US Constitution. Does that mean others should ignore portions of the 1st Amendment?


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Since it is not marriage. The only one who has the last WORD on anything says it is an abomination. I choose to believe HIM.


Here we go again. In YOUR OPINION.

:roll: :roll:


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Here we go again. In YOUR OPINION.
> 
> :roll: :roll:


I'm beginning to think maybe I need to break out the graphics programs and do a troll smiley.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> I'm beginning to think maybe I need to break out the graphics programs and do a troll smiley.


THou art referring to moi as a "troll??"


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

maysmom said:


> THou art referring to moi as a "troll??"


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To the one you did 2 rolling eyes smileys at.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To the one you did 2 rolling eyes smileys at.


Mercy me! (fanning self, warding off the vapors, lol!) Thought I'd stumbled into the Twilight Zone!!


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

So, firing up the application and finding the right color. I think I've found the right graphic for those who insist on the right to watch what everybody else does and disapprove.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> So, firing up the application and finding the right color. I think I've found the right graphic for those who insist on the right to watch what everybody else does and disapprove.


Nice, looks like Medusa on a bad hair day


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> Nice, looks like Medusa on a bad hair day


I didn't even think of that. And I have a wireframe Medusa head.

Oh, inspiration.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> Nice, looks like Medusa on a bad hair day


A Cyclops/Medusa offspring. Having a tantrum...
:twisted:


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

maysmom said:


> A Cyclops/Medusa offspring. Having a tantrum...
> :twisted:


Look familiar? (no, not in the mirror)


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Look familiar? (no, not in the mirror)


No comment!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

jbandsma said:


> So, firing up the application and finding the right color. I think I've found the right graphic for those who insist on the right to watch what everybody else does and disapprove.


That thing is lovely! Very fitting for the ugliness of spending hours thinking about others' bedroom activities. 
Why would anyone want to keep people from making a commitment?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> So, firing up the application and finding the right color. I think I've found the right graphic for those who insist on the right to watch what everybody else does and disapprove.


A masterpiece.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

jellen said:


> That thing is lovely! Very fitting for the ugliness of spending hours thinking about others' bedroom activities.
> Why would anyone want to keep people from making a commitment?


I guess for the same reasons they don't want them to have decent pay, healthcare, reproductive rights (and for the one who will go bananas over that...that doesn't just mean abortion, it means birth control, which, in case you hadn't noticed will reduce the need for abortion), and anything else that might actually give people a chance for an actual life, not just an almost existence.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Is that what they mean by American exceptionalism? Whenever other countries agree on something, it's usually all except America.


Maybe it would cost too much? I dunno, I guess we have our own ways. I meant about the measuring conversion..


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> It certainly isn't. We don't need to be sticking our noses into other people's business all the time.
> 
> But then, it doesn't help when other countries insist on enabling us. It seems like every time a country is experiences big problems the world starts saying "why isn't America doing something?"


Yup. Damned if we do and damned if we don't.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

jellen said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcATvu5f9vE


Let's dance!


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Mountain Stitches said:


> You have posted some hateful stuff, but this garbage is the worst yet that I have seen. You call yourself a Christian and yet you display so much hatred. You should be ashamed.


"Religious" zealots are addicted.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> "Religious" zealots are addicted.


All zealots are dangerous.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

jbandsma said:


> I guess for the same reasons they don't want them to have decent pay, healthcare, reproductive rights (and for the one who will go bananas over that...that doesn't just mean abortion, it means birth control, which, in case you hadn't noticed will reduce the need for abortion), and anything else that might actually give people a chance for an actual life, not just an almost existence.


Uh huh, mostly the right to CHOOSE when the right time to have a family is, that would include those families that need a bit of help. God knew what she was doing when she gave scientists the ability to develop all of those options for reproduction. It helps same sex couples have children.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

There was a column in the New York Times last week on the topic of Religious Constriction which has some interesting statistics and interesting facts about how science is viewed in the US.

It ends: "Religious fundamentalism at the expense of basic scientific facts threatens to obscure Americas beacon of light with a bank of fog."

A quick read, and worth it. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/09/opinion/blow-religious-constriction.html

There were some good letters to the editor about it yesterday (Monday), which are equally worthwhile: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/16/opinion/evolution-and-the-bible-literalists.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Maybe it would cost too much? I dunno, I guess we have our own ways. I meant about the measuring conversion..


Changing over to the metric system would cost something, but it's already being done here in some situations. Large bottles of Pepsi are 2-litre, not 2-quart, and medical measurements are done in terms of centimeters ("Doctor, she's 5 centimeters dilated," not "2 inches").

When the UK switched over, they had to refigure their entire currency from pounds, shillings, pence to pounds and new pence (not new any more), but apparently they found it worth doing.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

And what's wrong with 24 hour system? 16.00 instead of 4 PM no more confusion


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

You're confused about 4 PM? It's pretty straightforward.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> And what's wrong with 24 hour system? 16.00 instead of 4 PM no more confusion


That would confuse my alarm clock even more than it already is.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

I wonder how much expense it is now for commerce that technically we pay for. All these multinationals have to convert everything. Compounds and recipes are not always an exact match, are they?



Poor Purl said:


> Changing over to the metric system would cost something, but it's already being done here in some situations. Large bottles of Pepsi are 2-litre, not 2-quart, and medical measurements are done in terms of centimeters ("Doctor, she's 5 centimeters dilated," not "2 inches").
> 
> When the UK switched over, they had to refigure their entire currency from pounds, shillings, pence to pounds and new pence (not new any more), but apparently they found it worth doing.


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> You're confused about 4 PM? It's pretty straightforward.


The whole worl has 24 hours system , only USA has to do something different.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

I am always impressed by Charles Blow when I see him or read him. Mr. Blow always seems to present data that makes one consider what other people are thinking (or not thinking at all) about. 
Who the heck did these people survey?
I did enjoy the LttE, wish there were more of them. 
LOL, wish that there were at least one for the creationist position.



Poor Purl said:


> There was a column in the New York Times last week on the topic of Religious Constriction which has some interesting statistics and interesting facts about how science is viewed in the US.
> 
> It ends: "Religious fundamentalism at the expense of basic scientific facts threatens to obscure Americas beacon of light with a bank of fog."
> 
> ...


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

littlebaba said:


> The whole worl has 24 hours system , only USA has to do something different.


I doubt it's the "whole world." But in any case, while others may have chosen to move away from a perfectly good and straightforward system of time, we saw no reason to. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> I wonder how much expense it is now for commerce that technically we pay for. All these multinationals have to convert everything. Compounds and recipes are not always an exact match, are they?


No, some recipes these days are given by weight (grams, not ounces) because volume measurements are sometimes hard to translate. (Besides, weight is more accurate, esp. for flour.) Differences in standard units (inches vs. cm.) might explain why some tape measures from China are way off. See http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-252597-1.html for a chuckle.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> I am always impressed by Charles Blow when I see him or read him. Mr. Blow always seems to present data that makes one consider what other people are thinking (or not thinking at all) about.
> Who the heck did these people survey?
> I did enjoy the LttE, wish there were more of them.
> LOL, wish that there were at least one for the creationist position.


He does make it clear that there's a huge difference between fact and belief. The article had a few hundred comments. There may be a few creationists among them.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> I am always impressed by Charles Blow when I see him or read him. Mr. Blow always seems to present data that makes one consider what other people are thinking (or not thinking at all) about.
> Who the heck did these people survey?
> I did enjoy the LttE, wish there were more of them.
> LOL, wish that there were at least one for the creationist position.


I just went to the comments (over 750 of them). The first one ended with "That pure emotion in place of reason is the place of religion in politics, and that is a major reason why our Founders so carefully kept their new government away from it. They valued reason as the ruling principle of the democracy they envisioned.

They also kept away from it *because democracy was their choice of system, and established religion as an institution with its own leaders and priorities governinig beliefs and actions is another, rival system.* That applies now too." This explains why the right is trying to dismiss democracy as the foundation of our government. They'd rather bring in religion.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

oh, maybe because I was not logged in I just got a sampling. 
Or my little guy is too distracting. The nerve!



Poor Purl said:


> I just went to the comments (over 750 of them). The first one ended with "That pure emotion in place of reason is the place of religion in politics, and that is a major reason why our Founders so carefully kept their new government away from it. They valued reason as the ruling principle of the democracy they envisioned.
> 
> They also kept away from it *because democracy was their choice of system, and established religion as an institution with its own leaders and priorities governinig beliefs and actions is another, rival system.* That applies now too." This explains why the right is trying to dismiss democracy as the foundation of our government. They'd rather bring in religion.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

One might think that people who cannot keep history in mind could look at the current events in Iraq and Syria and the mess that has existed in Israel to see what religion does to governments. 
And then, of course, there is Libya, Nigeria, Sudan...



Poor Purl said:


> I just went to the comments (over 750 of them). The first one ended with "That pure emotion in place of reason is the place of religion in politics, and that is a major reason why our Founders so carefully kept their new government away from it. They valued reason as the ruling principle of the democracy they envisioned.
> 
> They also kept away from it *because democracy was their choice of system, and established religion as an institution with its own leaders and priorities governinig beliefs and actions is another, rival system.* That applies now too." This explains why the right is trying to dismiss democracy as the foundation of our government. They'd rather bring in religion.


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

jellen said:


> One might think that people who cannot keep history in mind could look at the current events in Iraq and Syria and the mess that has existed in Israel to see what religion does to governments.
> And then, of course, there is Libya, Nigeria, Sudan...


Aren't the most conflicts in history some kind about religion?


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

About religion or using religion as an excuse to exert power and control. For example, I don't believe that the Crusades were truly about religious belief and neither do I think that al Qaeda is an organization of religious people.



littlebaba said:


> Aren't the most conflicts in history some kind about religion?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> Aren't the most conflicts in history some kind about religion?


Maybe more than any other reason, but oil and treasure are good excuses for a war. And genocide, too, which has more to do with ethnicity than with religion.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> About religion or using religion as an excuse to exert power and control. For example, I don't believe that the Crusades were truly about religious belief and neither do I think that al Qaeda is an organization of religious people.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Maybe more than any other reason, but oil and treasure are good excuses for a war. And genocide, too, which has more to do with ethnicity than with religion.


But every one of those will claim that 'god' is on their side and instructed the leaders to carry out 'his' will.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> But every one of those will claim that 'god' is on their side and instructed the leaders to carry out 'his' will.


Yes, they all will, and then use his name to steal whatever they can.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

That thread was funny, and I get what you're saying about recipes using weight and that may be a conversion improvement; avoidance? 
I was not clear enough though, I think, I was thinking about a corporation like Heinz that has multinational holdings and a customer base that is all over.



Poor Purl said:


> No, some recipes these days are given by weight (grams, not ounces) because volume measurements are sometimes hard to translate. (Besides, weight is more accurate, esp. for flour.) Differences in standard units (inches vs. cm.) might explain why some tape measures from China are way off. See http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-252597-1.html for a chuckle.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> That thread was funny, and I get what you're saying about recipes using weight and that may be a conversion improvement; avoidance?
> I was not clear enough though, I think, I was thinking about a corporation like Heinz that has multinational holdings and a customer base that is all over.


You're right. They have to make one size for the US, in fluid oz. or whatever, and another size for everyone else, in litres or cc. No wonder food prices keep going up.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Yes, they all will, and then use his name to steal whatever they can.


And that right there proves that god, if you believe in one, cannot be female.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Colorado knits said:


> And that right there proves that god, if you believe in one, cannot be female.


I think since men " interpreted" the will of (god) there will always be conflicts. Women are the stronger sex, they just do what has to be done. My goddess is female


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

jbandsma said:


> But every one of those will claim that 'god' is on their side and instructed the leaders to carry out 'his' will.


Didn't we have a president recently who claimed that God wanted him to be in that position?
Mr. Brat from VA (the state not the agency) said that his winning the Republican primary was [paraphrasing] God's miracle. :roll:


----------



## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

jellen said:


> Didn't we have a president recently who claimed that God wanted him to be in that position?
> Mr. Brat from VA (the state not the agency) said that his winning the Republican primary was [paraphrasing] God's miracle. :roll:


I almost pointed out both of those events. Thank you.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

But the natives where here first, what about this religion? Just overturned or what?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Sorry Purl,we do not have a democracy and have never had
> a democracy. Although I'm sure that is what Obama wants and is working toward.
> 
> We are a * Constitutional Republic.*
> ...


You seem to think a republic can't be a democracy and vice versa. You're wrong.

Oh, speaking of which, we were talking about evolution. There's a small item in the Science section of the NY Times today that shows an example of how evolution works, not by fish changing into cows but by fish changing into fish that are better-adapted to their environment:

*A Chain Reaction of Change Behind Dams*

When settlers in 18th-century New England dammed their lakes, they unwittingly set off evolutionary changes in the herring species called the alewife. Now researchers have discovered that those changes rippled across the food web.

In freshwater lakes unhindered by dams, alewives (above) feed on animal plankton and small insects before returning to the sea, where they become prey to larger fish.

Earlier research by the Yale ecologist David M. Post and his colleagues found that after the alewives ate all the large zooplankton in lakes cut off from the sea by dams, *they evolved a gill structure that enabled them to consume smaller plankton.*

In a new study in the journal Proceedings of the Royal Society B, the scientists looked at the bluegill, a competing species that lives only in freshwater and normally prefers large zooplankton, which are richer in nutrients than small ones.

They know the good food, as Dr. Post put it. Its like the hamburger to the celery stick.

But deprived of large zooplankton for years because of the alewives, bluegills in dammed lakes now rely on smaller zooplankton, and the researchers found that they no longer distinguish between large and small, eating whatever is presented to them.

*What were showing is that evolution can happen rapidly and have large ecological impacts and can propagate, Dr. Post said. And it can happen at a human time scale.* SINDYA N. BHANOO


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> But the natives where here first, what about this religion? Just overturned or what?


Like their culture, yes - overturned and replaced by the Europeans.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Like their culture, yes - overturned and replaced by the Europeans.


And this seems right to the so called " Christian's". In my opinion it is a shame


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Colorado knits said:


> And that right there proves that god, if you believe in one, cannot be female.


Not sure I get this. Is it because men intent on doing harm won't listen to a female god, or just because I used "his" rather than "her"? Or something less superficial?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> And this seems right to the so called " Christian's". In my opinion it is a shame


It's worse than a shame. It's a kind of murder.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Poor purl you Kitty is a darling


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Yes, they all will, and then use his name to steal whatever they can.


All done "Under the Banner of Heaven," as the book was titled. For whomever wanted to control, and the poor people who would be controlled.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

littlebaba said:


> But the natives where here first, what about this religion? Just overturned or what?


Christians have steamrolled whatever spiritual beliefs were in place when their missionaries arrived. I say Christians because you say here and because that is the religious history I am most familiar with. I am relatively sure that humankind being as it is, all religions do the same.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> But the natives where here first, what about this religion? Just overturned or what?


Cultural genocide is what.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Sorry Purl,we do not have a democracy and have never had
> a democracy. Although I'm sure that is what Obama wants and is working toward.
> 
> We are a * Constitutional Republic.*
> ...


You seem to be quite firmly mired in the 1700's, joey.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> Poor purl you Kitty is a darling


Thank you. She's no longer with us, but she really was a darling, and very smart and pretty.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> You seem to be quite firmly mired in the 1700's, joey.


... during the Enlightenment, when the most influential of our leaders were deists. I'd say firmly mired in the 12th century.

When did this "constitutional republic" business begin? Our government was never described that way when I was taking history. Republic, but also democracy.


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you. She's no longer with us, but she really was a darling, and very smart and pretty.


So sorry, I lost a cat last year. They always live in our heart. Just thankful I had the joy to have him in my life, he often purrrrrrred my tears away.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> ... during the Enlightenment, when the most influential of our leaders were deists. I'd say firmly mired in the 12th century.
> 
> When did this "constitutional republic" business begin? Our government was never described that way when I was taking history. Republic, but also democracy.


What I have been reading recently is that this whole business is part of the push toward a theocracy. 
It is simply not going to happen, people in the US will not accept a Christian Sharia law any more than they would an Islamic Sharia control.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> What I have been reading recently is that this whole business is part of the push toward a theocracy.
> It is simply not going to happen, people in the US will not accept a Christian Sharia law any more than they would an Islamic Sharia control.


That's what I thought. Or at least I thought it after reading that comment I posted; the writer of the comment was very certain, and Joey was certain it was wrong.


----------



## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Speaking of evolution...have you heard of Allen's Rule or it might be Alan's rule? Well, it regards the idea that humans have physical changes to adapt to climate. For instance, Somalians are long and lanky in the limbs because body fat is not the least bit useful in such a hot climate and the length gives more area for evaporation process. On the other hand, if you look at the Inuit peoples you will see round bodies, short limbs, short noses etc. to adapt to extreme cold. The less length in appendages, the less chance for hypothermia, frost bite etc. If you have ever been to tundra regions of the North, you will find that trees that are hundreds of years old are only a few feet high. They are evergreens with stubby limbs and short needles, again to expose less "skin" to the cold.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

That explains it, I must have been a tundra evergreen in a past life!



knovice knitter said:


> Speaking of evolution...have you heard of Allen's Rule or it might be Alan's rule? Well, it regards the idea that humans have physical changes to adapt to climate. For instance, Somalians are long and lanky in the limbs because body fat is not the least bit useful in such a hot climate and the length gives more area for evaporation process. On the other hand, if you look at the Inuit peoples you will see round bodies, short limbs, short noses etc. to adapt to extreme cold. The less length in appendages, the less chance for hypothermia, frost bite etc. If you have ever been to tundra regions of the North, you will find that trees that are hundreds of years old are only a few feet high. They are evergreens with stubby limbs and short needles, again to expose less "skin" to the cold.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> That explains it, I must have been a tundra evergreen in a past life!


And I an Inuit.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> Speaking of evolution...have you heard of Allen's Rule or it might be Alan's rule? Well, it regards the idea that humans have physical changes to adapt to climate. For instance, Somalians are long and lanky in the limbs because body fat is not the least bit useful in such a hot climate and the length gives more area for evaporation process. On the other hand, if you look at the Inuit peoples you will see round bodies, short limbs, short noses etc. to adapt to extreme cold. The less length in appendages, the less chance for hypothermia, frost bite etc. If you have ever been to tundra regions of the North, you will find that trees that are hundreds of years old are only a few feet high. They are evergreens with stubby limbs and short needles, again to expose less "skin" to the cold.


It makes sense. If the fittest are the ones that survive, they would have to be the ones best adapted to their own environment. The only thing that doesn't explain is why Italians are so hairy, since Italy is a pretty warm country.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

knovice knitter said:


> Speaking of evolution...have you heard of Allen's Rule or it might be Alan's rule? Well, it regards the idea that humans have physical changes to adapt to climate. For instance, Somalians are long and lanky in the limbs because body fat is not the least bit useful in such a hot climate and the length gives more area for evaporation process. On the other hand, if you look at the Inuit peoples you will see round bodies, short limbs, short noses etc. to adapt to extreme cold. The less length in appendages, the less chance for hypothermia, frost bite etc. If you have ever been to tundra regions of the North, you will find that trees that are hundreds of years old are only a few feet high. They are evergreens with stubby limbs and short needles, again to expose less "skin" to the cold.


When our ancestors left Africa and followed the retreating ice northwards they lost their dark pigmentation in their skin. This pigmentation was necessary in hot Africa but was a hindrance to good health in the cold north. Dark skin stopped the sun from damaging the skin but further north where the sun's rays were not as strong they did not need this pigmentation. They also found that a lighter skin was needed for the production of vitamin D when there was less sunlight. We can see this to a much lesser degree in Australia. White people only settled here in 1788 and they came from the United Kingdom but today's Australians are slightly more suntanned than their ancestors. Evolution is happening all around us, every day. Some call it mutation but it is a mutation in order to survive. Generally mutations do not survive and breed succeeding generations. I remember a study undertaken way back in the 1950s showing how much taller Americans were than their forefathers who came to the US several generations before. They said it was due to better nutrition and more sunshine.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It makes sense. If the fittest are the ones that survive, they would have to be the ones best adapted to their own environment. The only thing that doesn't explain is why Italians are so hairy, since Italy is a pretty warm country.


Once again, protection from the sun. Hair is a great protector.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

jellen said:


> That explains it, I must have been a tundra evergreen in a past life!


And who says that there's no such thing as evolution??!!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Once again, protection from the sun. Hair is a great protector.


Maybe. But it also keeps you warm and makes you sweat. Africans seem not to have as much hair as white people, and they are exactly the people to need protection from the sun.

And if you can give me an evolutionary reason for hair growing out of my husband's ears, I'd like to know what it is. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> And who says that there's no such thing as evolution??!!


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Maybe. But it also keeps you warm and makes you sweat. Africans seem not to have as much hair as white people, and they are exactly the people to need protection from the sun.
> 
> And if you can give me an evolutionary reason for hair growing out of my husband's ears, I'd like to know what it is. :lol: :lol: :lol:


I think that ear hair is something that cerumen (or earwax) can hang onto and work its way out of the ear canal...maybe???


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> I think that ear hair is something that cerumen (or earwax) can hang onto and work its way out of the ear canal...maybe???


Thank you for taking this seriously and spoiling my fun. Now GO TO SLEEP! It's after 3.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you for taking this seriously and spoiling my fun. Now GO TO SLEEP! It's after 3.


....meekly...okay, Mum. Did you want to know anything about nose hair?


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Here are quotes from the founding fathers about religion. I will believe what they said over any modern historian.


Wrong again. The majority of the founding fathers were Deists, not christians. (That means they believed that if there was a god it started things and then went on to other pastimes. It's one of the reasons there is NO mention of any god in the constitution. And the declaration of independence is NOT the same as the constitution.

Here the quotes you'd love to deny...the ones you try to say historians made up. Oh, and while you're at it...look up the "Jefferson Bible":

A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the* laws of nature*, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate. Thomas Jefferson

The Government of the United States of America is* not* in any sense founded on the Christian religion.
~1797 Treaty of Tripoli signed by Founding Father John Adams

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, then that of blindfolded fear.
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson: in letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813

And many, many more.

Sorry, you goofed again.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

maysmom said:


> You seem to be quite firmly mired in the 1700's, joey.


She'd have hated it then. Her mouth would have kept her in the stocks. Not to mention that the men who ran the place were saying that there would be NO state religion and they even mentioned that non-believers should have the same rights as believers.

Before women earned those same rights.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

maysmom said:


> And who says that there's no such thing as evolution??!!


You know what's really funny? The only ones I ever hear say that man descended from monkeys are the ones who deny evolution.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Sweat is a good thing. It helps to cool you.



Poor Purl said:


> Maybe. But it also keeps you warm and makes you sweat. Africans seem not to have as much hair as white people, and they are exactly the people to need protection from the sun.
> 
> And if you can give me an evolutionary reason for hair growing out of my husband's ears, I'd like to know what it is. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

The hair that once grew so abundantly on the top of your husband's head is now growing inward and coming out on his chin and ears. As far as the hairy Italians, perhaps it is a survival thing in that, at one time, hair equated to virility. We all know how sexy Italians can be. Like the male bird and the beautiful plumage... Latin lovers bear luscious locks of hair. I am not addressing the Italian woman's mustache or the need to shave her legs three times a day. I'm just making this up as I go along. The virility thing could possibly be true. Emphasis on "possibly".


Poor Purl said:


> Maybe. But it also keeps you warm and makes you sweat. Africans seem not to have as much hair as white people, and they are exactly the people to need protection from the sun.
> 
> And if you can give me an evolutionary reason for hair growing out of my husband's ears, I'd like to know what it is. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Inuit, I.



Poor Purl said:


> And I an Inuit.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

jbandsma said:


> You know what's really funny? The only ones I ever hear say that man descended from monkeys are the ones who deny evolution.


Cuz they are pulling that info outta their monkey butt.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> ....meekly...okay, Mum. Did you want to know anything about nose hair?


Is that what Donald Trump grows long and wraps around his head? No, I don't want to know.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> Sweat is a good thing. It helps to cool you.


Only as it evaporates, which it never seems to on the nape of my neck.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Wrong again. The majority of the founding fathers were Deists, not christians. (That means they believed that if there was a god it started things and then went on to other pastimes. It's one of the reasons there is NO mention of any god in the constitution. And the declaration of independence is NOT the same as the constitution.
> 
> Here the quotes you'd love to deny...the ones you try to say historians made up. Oh, and while you're at it...look up the "Jefferson Bible":
> 
> ...


Thank you. The last one is particularly appropriate to today, and the one before to any time: "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, then that of blindfolded fear.
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787"


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> You know what's really funny? The only ones I ever hear say that man descended from monkeys are the ones who deny evolution.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> The hair that once grew so abundantly on the top of your husband's head is now growing inward and coming out on his chin and ears. As far as the hairy Italians, perhaps it is a survival thing in that, at one time, hair equated to virility. We all know how sexy Italians can be. Like the male bird and the beautiful plumage... Latin lovers bear luscious locks of hair. I am not addressing the Italian woman's mustache or the need to shave her legs three times a day. I'm just making this up as I go along. The virility thing could possibly be true. Emphasis on "possibly".


I laughed about this all through my shower - it's the funniest thing I've seen in a while. And most poetic: "Latin lovers bear luscious locks" indeed. (Except that my husband has a very thick head of hair, so the ear stuff has to be coming from somewhere else.)

I remember Phyllis Diller, when she was practically unknown, pointing to her thin, lanky tresses and saying, "You think this is hair? These are nerve ends."


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> Inuit, I.


Sorry, you're right. And I now have the giggles.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> The hair that once grew so abundantly on the top of your husband's head is now growing inward and coming out on his chin and ears. As far as the hairy Italians, perhaps it is a survival thing in that, at one time, hair equated to virility. We all know how sexy Italians can be. Like the male bird and the beautiful plumage... Latin lovers bear luscious locks of hair. I am not addressing the Italian woman's mustache or the need to shave her legs three times a day. I'm just making this up as I go along. The virility thing could possibly be true. Emphasis on "possibly".


I have a handome hunky HAIRY Portagee(and not in ears or nose)...'nuff said!!


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

"Latin lovers bear luscious locks"

"From top of head to strong thick ___ fill in the blanks!!!

(answer: Hocks--right!)


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> "Latin lovers bear luscious locks"
> 
> "From top of head to strong thick ___ fill in the blanks!!!
> 
> (answer: Hocks--right!)


Not socks?


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Not socks?


He wasn't born with socks, lol.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> This is revisionist history written after 1950.


I guess you don't see the dates of 1787, 1777, etc? These are from handwritten documents that are preserved.

First science now history. Who types your posts for you? I certainly can't believe it's anybody with even a smidge of intellectual honesty.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

No wonder our schools are doing so badly if this is the level of competence we have for teachers and administrators.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

BTW, the things added after 1950 were "in god we trust" on the currency (1952) and "under god" in the pledge (1954).

The person who wrote the pledge, deliberately left out the 'under god'...or ANY mention of god...even though he was a Baptist minister.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

jbandsma said:


> BTW, the things added after 1950 were "in god we trust" on the currency (1952) and "under god" in the pledge (1954).
> 
> The person who wrote the pledge, deliberately left out the 'under god'...or ANY mention of god...even though he was a Baptist minister.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

maysmom said:


> He wasn't born with socks, lol.


Shocks? Frocks? 
A cross dresser?


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> http://www.lonang.com/


http://documentscompass.org/projects/papers-of-the-founding-fathers/

A little more credible source than yours. Why don't you take your bible's commandment for women not to teach seriously? If you are spreading this load of codswallop to kids, you are doing them one of the worst services anybody ever could.


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## Kaitlyn25 (Dec 30, 2013)

I am a Catholic and I was not to take the bible literally but, there are important morals.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> Shocks? Frocks?
> A cross dresser?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> _Believe me, dear Sir: there is not in the British empire a man who more cordially loves a union with Great Britain than I do. But, by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the British Parliament propose; and in this, I think I speak the sentiments of America._
> 
> Thomas Jefferson, November 29, 1775
> 
> The word "God" is not mentioned in the Contitution because they did not want a state religion, or denomination. Nor did they want the government to interfere in the practice of any religion. It was not meant to keep God out of government. and so it continued until 1963. Until some idiots, misinterpreted Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists.


So by your interpretation it was meant to keep any specific view of God out of the government, such as the Christian view. Are you really such a great historian that you feel you can look down on people with a different opinion and call them idiots? Maybe whoever taught you what you've just regurgitated to us is the idiot.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Did the socks EVOLVE?


maysmom said:


> He wasn't born with socks, lol.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

knovice knitter said:


> Did the socks EVOLVE?


Let's say he just grew into them, lol. (Or they grew on him, another lol)


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> So by your interpretation it was meant to keep any specific view of God out of the government, such as the Christian view. Are you really such a great historian that you feel you can look down on people with a different opinion and call them idiots? Maybe whoever taught you what you've just regurgitated to us is the idiot.


She still hasn't bothered to look up the Jefferson bible. Copies are available and the original resides at Montecello. Yes, he ACTUALLY cut up several bibles to make one that made more sense. And no it wasn't written after 1950. (Face palm)

The Jefferson Bible, or The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth as it is formally titled, was a book constructed by Thomas Jefferson in the latter years of his life by cutting and pasting with a razor and glue numerous sections from the New Testament as extractions of the doctrine of Jesus. Jefferson's condensed composition is especially notable for its exclusion of all miracles by Jesus and most mentions of the supernatural, including sections of the four gospels which contain the Resurrection and most other miracles, and passages indicating Jesus was divine.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Let's say he just grew into them, lol. (Or they grew on him, another lol)


Or he was a prodigy and knit them while in the womb.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> BTW, the things added after 1950 were "in god we trust" on the currency (1952) and "under god" in the pledge (1954).
> 
> The person who wrote the pledge, deliberately left out the 'under god'...or ANY mention of god...even though he was a Baptist minister.


... who wrote, "and to the _Democracy_, for which it stands, one Nation, indivisible " as opposed to _The Republic_ according to your history books? Because I've never seen nor read nor heard those words, "to the Democracy."

Joeysomma is correct, you are incorrect, the USA is a Constitutional Republic represented by a Democratic process.

Bet your wrong on the creator/writer being a Baptist minister, too. I believe the creator was the SON of a Baptist minister. Guess you don't know your history like you think you do, but you sure like to critique others who do know.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Democracy and the Origins of the US Constitution
> 
> by Lewis Loflin


What are Lewis Loflin's credentials? Why would he know more about the subject than people whose life's work is history? Or is he a historian, one of the people you characterized as idiots? This reads like something written for high school students, and not the ones in the AP classes.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> She still hasn't bothered to look up the Jefferson bible. Copies are available and the original resides at Montecello. Yes, he ACTUALLY cut up several bibles to make one that made more sense. And no it wasn't written after 1950. (Face palm)
> 
> The Jefferson Bible, or The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth as it is formally titled, was a book constructed by Thomas Jefferson in the latter years of his life by cutting and pasting with a razor and glue numerous sections from the New Testament as extractions of the doctrine of Jesus. Jefferson's condensed composition is especially notable for its exclusion of all miracles by Jesus and most mentions of the supernatural, including sections of the four gospels which contain the Resurrection and most other miracles, and passages indicating Jesus was divine.


I've read about it, though I've never read it. It might be fun. But it's so much scarier than quoting some anonymous person on the internet saying what you want to hear - at least, if you have your own ideas of who Jefferson was.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

And she never will, or at least will never admit to having tried to understand anything other than these snake oil internet folks she keeps falling for. 
Lewis Loflin, indeed. <smh>



jbandsma said:


> She still hasn't bothered to look up the Jefferson bible. Copies are available and the original resides at Montecello. Yes, he ACTUALLY cut up several bibles to make one that made more sense. And no it wasn't written after 1950. (Face palm)
> 
> The Jefferson Bible, or The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth as it is formally titled, was a book constructed by Thomas Jefferson in the latter years of his life by cutting and pasting with a razor and glue numerous sections from the New Testament as extractions of the doctrine of Jesus. Jefferson's condensed composition is especially notable for its exclusion of all miracles by Jesus and most mentions of the supernatural, including sections of the four gospels which contain the Resurrection and most other miracles, and passages indicating Jesus was divine.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

L.Sarsour said:


> A constitutional republic IS a form of democracy.
> 
> No one here has EVER claimed we're a direct democracy.


Welcome. You sound like the voice of reason. I could never understand why these people think "republic" and "democracy" are mutually exclusive.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Welcome. You sound like the voice of reason. I could never understand why these people think "republic" and "democracy" are mutually exclusive.


A democracy is majority rule. A republic is representative rule. The reason our founding fathers formed a republic, was to protect the rights of the individual against the majority. Democracy is often described as two wolves and a lamb, deciding what's for lunch.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Exactly, I was just sitting on my little glider while knitting and listening to discussions about tomorrow's election in the House leadership. 
While there I thought that seriously most Americans don't give a thought to what label is placed on our system of gov't. 
They just thank their lucky little stars that we have it.



Poor Purl said:


> Welcome. You sound like the voice of reason. I could never understand why these people think "republic" and "democracy" are mutually exclusive.


L.Sarsour wrote:
A constitutional republic IS a form of democracy.

No one here has EVER claimed we're a direct democracy.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> ... who wrote, "and to the _Democracy_, for which it stands, one Nation, indivisible " as opposed to _The Republic_ according to your history books? Because I've never seen nor read nor heard those words, "to the Democracy."
> 
> Joeysomma is correct, you are incorrect, the USA is a Constitutional Republic represented by a Democratic process.
> 
> Bet your wrong on the creator/writer being a Baptist minister, too. I believe the creator was the SON of a Baptist minister. Guess you don't know your history like you think you do, but you sure like to critique others who do know.


It was me who said the author of the pledge was a Baptist minister...because he was. Francis Bellamy.

Francis Bellamy
Author
Francis Julius Bellamy was an American Baptist minister and author, best known for authoring the American Pledge of Allegiance. 
Born: May 18, 1855, Mount Morris, NY
Died: August 28, 1931
Education: University 
The original pledge wording 1892

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Change in 1922

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

1923

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States and to the republic for which it stands; one Nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

1924 to 1954

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands; one Nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

1954 to present

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Oh, and there's absolutely NO evidence that the word democracy was ever part of the pledge. There IS, however, evidence that Bellamy wanted to add equality as well as liberty and justice but was talked out of doing so. Also the original salute was not ahand over the heart but would be very recognizable to anyone who has ever seen pictures of the Hitler youth.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

maysmom said:


> Let's say he just grew into them, lol. (Or they grew on him, another lol)


I think he just braided the hairs on his hairy feet and told everyone that they were socks that his mother had knitted for him.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> As far as the Jefferson Bible. I will not read it.
> 
> Revelation 22:18-19 (NKJV)
> 
> 18 _For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book._


Of course not. Too afraid to find anything that might not fit with your skewed world view.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

That person is quibbling about the use of "republic" rather than "democracy" as if Rev. Bellamy's use of terms in that poem define our form of gov't. 
More idiocy.



jbandsma said:


> It was me who said the author of the pledge was a Baptist minister...because he was. Francis Bellamy.
> 
> Francis Bellamy
> Author
> ...


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> It was me who said the author of the pledge was a Baptist minister...because he was. Francis Bellamy


Duh, I KNOW who created the pledge, I asked YOU who wrote the words, "and to the Democracy, ..."

What is your answer? Every quote you posted states "Republic" not "Democracy" as you and others are trying to claim as the truth and history of the creation of our form of government. Where is your proof we are not a Constitutional Republic?

BTW: from Smithsoniam Magazine and precisely as I suggested I remembered:

Francis Bellamy *was a Baptist minister's son* from upstate New York. Educated in public schools, he distinguished himself in oratory at the University of Rochester before following his father to the pulpit, preaching at churches in New York and Boston.  But he was restive in the ministry and, in 1891, accepted a job from one of his Boston congregants, Daniel S. Ford, principal owner and editor of the Youth's Companion, a family magazine with half a million subscribers.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-man-who-wrote-the-pledge-of-allegiance-93907224/


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

L.Sarsour said:


> Because a republic IS a democracy.


No it is not.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> As far as the Jefferson Bible. I will not read it.
> 
> Revelation 22:18-19 (NKJV)
> 
> 18 _For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book._


Neither would I or probably most Christians. Who gave Jefferson the power and ability to pick and choose and rewrite the inspired words of God?

The Libs love to talk about cherry-picking, which sounds exactly to be what Jefferson did by tearing up the Bible, I guess, and piecing it back together to suit his purposes.

Why would anyone other than he bother to read or discuss such a thing.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> As far as the Jefferson Bible. I will not read it.
> 
> Revelation 22:18-19 (NKJV)
> 
> 18 _For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book._


If you have not read something then you cannot comment on it as you are only relying on 'hearsay evidence'. Your refusal to read something only displays a closed mind. Please open you mind to experiences and opinions that are, at the present time, completely foreign to you. That is all that is being asked of you. I will write on of my grandmother's favourite sayings, "You never know, you may actually learn something." NowI know you will jump all over me with your hobnailed boots because I have taken you to task. You undoubtedly will come up with a long winded post from some obscure web site decrying what my granny said. Well, it will keep you off the streets, as she would say.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

L.Sarsour said:


> Yup, it is. It's a FORM of democracy. Different from a direct democracy, which is something no one here has EVER claimed the US is.


OK, look it up and prove it to me.

BTW: You won't be able to because you are incorrect and don't understand what the form of government exists and was created for the USA, (a Republic) and further, you do not understand what a Democracy is by your own words/admission.

I have no further interest to discuss your opinion as that is all you are stating.

Also, some here have claimed the created govt of the USA was a democracy and never put ANY conditions upon their statements.

They said, the USA was a formed "democracy" PERIOD.

The truth and history prevails; not those inaccurate claims.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Neither would I or probably most Christians. Who gave Jefferson the power and ability to pick and choose and rewrite the inspired words of God?
> 
> The Libs love to talk about cherry-picking, which sounds exactly to be what Jefferson did by tearing up the Bible, I guess, and piecing it back together to suit his purposes.
> 
> Why would anyone other than he bother to read or discuss such a thing.


The reply I posted to joeysomma's post also applies to you. I thought you had retired to your corner and were not going to post.

an edit to my post above, your post. Did you not mean those words

_I wanted to let you know, I'll be taking a leave of absence from KP_



> Good Morning all my nutty and dear Friends,
> 
> I wanted to let you know, I'll be taking a leave of absence from KP.
> 
> ...


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

knitpresentgifts said:


> No it is not.


L.Sarsour wrote:
Because a republic IS a democracy.

That is certainly enlightening. How about if you explain to us the similarities and differences and the overlap between the two?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Gandhi


 :thumbup:


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> The reply I posted to joeysomma's post also applies to you. I thought you had retired to your corner and were not going to post.


Never said that, and I don't answer to you either, Martha.

Oh, and I have no idea what "post you wrote that applies to me either" since I don't read 99% of your posts as they do not interest me.

It just so happened I read, this inaccurate claim of yours. Regardless, I can assure you whatever you said does NOT apply to me; per usual.

Have a nice day.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

How about that 17th Amendment to the US Constitution?



knitpresentgifts said:


> OK, look it up and prove it to me.
> 
> BTW: You won't be able to because you are incorrect and don't understand what the form of government exists and was created for the USA, (a Republic) and further, you do not understand what a Democracy is by your own words/admission.
> 
> ...


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Gandhi


I am sure that Gandhi would be spinning in his grave if he knew you were quoting him to support your arguments. To be honest, you are misquoting him. Read the quote again and especially the words that the truth is still the truth.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> A democracy is majority rule. A republic is representative rule. The reason our founding fathers formed a republic, was to protect the rights of the individual against the majority. Democracy is often described as two wolves and a lamb, deciding what's for lunch.


It's described like that by people who don't like democracy. It's hard for the wealthy and powerful to buy up all the citizens of a democracy; it's much easier for them to buy up our representatives and run things the way they'd like.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

EveMCooke said:


> I am sure that Gandhi would be spinning in his grave if he knew you were quoting him to support your arguments. To be honest, you are misquoting him. Read the quote again and especially the words that the truth is still the truth.


It is so frightening for some people to attempt different views and perspectives. I have always found that a period of questioning creats a rebound situation of my faithe returning stronger than ever. 
One has to wonder what people have to fear from questioning the status quo.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

While I often go for a straightforward and direct explanation some situations beg for a more in depth description than majority rule and representative gov't.

How would you explain the town meeting? If that isn't democracy that works at the most basic level I don't know what is.



Poor Purl said:


> It's described like that by people who don't like democracy. It's hard for the wealthy and powerful to buy up all the citizens of a democracy; it's much easier for them to buy up our representatives and run things the way they'd like.


Knitter from Nebraska wrote:
A democracy is majority rule. A republic is representative rule. The reason our founding fathers formed a republic, was to protect the rights of the individual against the majority. Democracy is often described as two wolves and a lamb, deciding what's for lunch.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The idiots I mentioned were the majority of the Justices of Supreme Court.
> 
> Rather than questioning Loflin's credentials, why don't you find proof from the founding fathers that state that the government is a democracy.
> 
> If it was written for an AP class how could the common person be able to understand it? Many high school graduates are barely able to read at a 6th grade level, if they are able to read at all.


I just think if it comes from an expert, it ought to be readable by everyone, not just the lowest common denominator. A real scholar can do that; a hack can't.

jbandsma has already given you a bunch of quotes; I don't have to go for more so you can evade the question of who your expert is.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Gandhi


Are you comparing yourself to Gandhi? At least you have no false modesty, though you have plenty to be modest about.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Duh, I KNOW who created the pledge, I asked YOU who wrote the words, "and to the Democracy, ..."
> 
> What is your answer? Every quote you posted states "Republic" not "Democracy" as you and others are trying to claim as the truth and history of the creation of our form of government. Where is your proof we are not a Constitutional Republic?
> 
> ...


I have never said anything about our form of government being a democracy, never implied that the pledge ever had the word democracy in it and I'm totally confused as to why you think I have.

Or are you just another of joeysmomma's alter egos?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Neither would I or probably most Christians. Who gave Jefferson the power and ability to pick and choose and rewrite the inspired words of God?
> 
> The Libs love to talk about cherry-picking, which sounds exactly to be what Jefferson did by tearing up the Bible, I guess, and piecing it back together to suit his purposes.
> 
> Why would anyone other than he bother to read or discuss such a thing.


Out of curiosity?? Some people have it---curiosity, that is.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

jbandsma said:


> I have never said anything about our form of government being a democracy, never implied that the pledge ever had the word democracy in it and I'm totally confused as to why you think I have.
> 
> Or are you just another of joeysmomma's alter egos?


That is her ridiculous argument for the US being a republic. 
She had to leave, however, for something more pressing than trying to convince people that the Reverend Bellamy was the definitive word on what our form of government was. 
It coudn't be that republic fit the structure better than democracy.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

alcameron said:


> Out of curiosity?? Some people have it---curiosity, that is.


One might ask the same about Christians and their authority to pick and choose concerning the contents of the Holy Bible.

Those Leviticus passages are so worn as examples of the hypocrisy. 
Shall we use the Gnostic sections tonight?

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gnostics.html


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Out of curiosity?? Some people have it---curiosity, that is.


Better to avoid it if it's going to send you directly to hell.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

A new version of Monopoly?



Poor Purl said:


> Better to avoid it if it's going to send you directly to hell.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> A new version of Monopoly?


Yup. There's even a Get out of Hell Free card.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

I think I will give up salt and pepper shakers and start collecting those.



Poor Purl said:


> Yup. There's even a Get out of Hell Free card.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> I think I will give up salt and pepper shakers and start collecting those.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It's described like that by people who don't like democracy. It's hard for the wealthy and powerful to buy up all the citizens of a democracy; it's much easier for them to buy up our representatives and run things the way they'd like.


No system is safe from corruption. It is up to the people to retain control. When the people become lax, tyrants take over. In its true form, a republic protects the rights of the individual. What we have now protects neither the individual nor the majority.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

jellen said:


> It is so frightening for some people to attempt different views and perspectives. I have always found that a period of questioning creats a rebound situation of my faithe returning stronger than ever.
> One has to wonder what people have to fear from questioning the status quo.


So...have you read either the Holy Bible or Jefferson's bible? Just curious.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

jellen said:


> While I often go for a straightforward and direct explanation some situations beg for a more in depth description than majority rule and representative gov't.
> 
> How would you explain the town meeting? If that isn't democracy that works at the most basic level I don't know what is.
> 
> ...


In a democracy, everyone votes on everything. The majority rules. In a republic, representatives of the people vote. Obviously, our system is broken. But a true democratic system would be quite impractical.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> She still hasn't bothered to look up the Jefferson bible. Copies are available and the original resides at Montecello. Yes, he ACTUALLY cut up several bibles to make one that made more sense. And no it wasn't written after 1950. (Face palm)
> 
> The Jefferson Bible, or The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth as it is formally titled, was a book constructed by Thomas Jefferson in the latter years of his life by cutting and pasting with a razor and glue numerous sections from the New Testament as extractions of the doctrine of Jesus. Jefferson's condensed composition is especially notable for its exclusion of all miracles by Jesus and most mentions of the supernatural, including sections of the four gospels which contain the Resurrection and most other miracles, and passages indicating Jesus was divine.


I have just downloaded a free sample of the above onto my Kindle. The entire work is only $1 from Amazon and there are three excellent references to the work there. Apparently it only takes a few hours to read as it is under 100 pages. Only problem is I have mislaid the cable that connects my Kindle to the charger so I had to go any buy another one, cost $27. I have searched the entire house and cannot find it. I had it yesterday when I changed cords to charge the ipad and put it down somewhere. It is in a small wooden box with Woodstock Tea written on the side so we are not just looking for a cord. I called into Dick Smith, who sell the Kindle here. A most rude sales assistant. She said "we do not sell the chargers" and walked off. I followed her and said "I do not want the charger, I just want the connecting cord", I knew they sold Belkin products and one of them would fit. She said "Ring Kindle sales service" and walked off again. I walked after her asking "Do you know how much it costs to ring America?", and she walked off again. I followed and she said "go on EBay". I tried to talk to her but she was more interested in dusting the shelves so I am sorry I lost it and said "Oi, Bitch, back here, I am talking to you", sorry but that is a typical Aussie response. The guy at the till said "Do not swear in this store" . I tried to tell him that she was rude, wandering off when a customer was talking to her, but he just kept repeating "do not swear in this store". By the way, the word 'bitch' is not considered swearing in Australia, we use stronger language and it is still not considered swearing. I went to the other Dick Smith store and told them what I wanted, I also told them about the service in the other store. They went to the display and brought back the product I wanted, telling me if it was not correct to return it to them. They were also very interested in hearing about the staff in the other store. They gave me a complaint form to fill in and send to Dick Smith's headquarters. They said if I did not know the assistant's names it did not matter, just put the date and time on the complaint form and they could check the work rosters for the sales assistants' names. They said she definitely should not have walked away when a customer was talking to her, even if she had been called a bitch. As with all bad service, I will tell everyone I know about the bad service I received from Dick Smith in Midland Gate Shopping Centre. Enough for my rant of the day. But I am looking forward to reading the free sample of the book, I will probably end up buying it in a few hours. Thanks for referring it to us to read. One must read widely in order to increase ones knowledge of many things.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I think he just braided the hairs on his hairy feet and told everyone that they were socks that his mother had knitted for him.


Would crocheting the socks be okay? MIL was a crocheter.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

maysmom said:


> Would crocheting the socks be okay? MIL was a crocheter.


Probably better.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> In a democracy, everyone votes on everything. The majority rules. In a republic, representatives of the people vote. Obviously, our system is broken. But a true democratic system would be quite impractical.


That is simply not true. Where did you get such an idea?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

jellen said:


> That is her ridiculous argument for the US being a republic.
> She had to leave, however, for something more pressing than trying to convince people that the Reverend Bellamy was the definitive word on what our form of government was.
> It coudn't be that republic fit the structure better than democracy.


Well, I would never have weighed in on the democracy/republic debate because I don't believe this country is either today. We're about 3/5 of the way to oligarchy and I believe that in 20 years or less (or after the next republican administration, whichever comes first) this country will either be a theocratic oligarchy or a full-blown theocracy.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

jellen said:


> One might ask the same about Christians and their authority to pick and choose concerning the contents of the Holy Bible.
> 
> Those Leviticus passages are so worn as examples of the hypocrisy.
> Shall we use the Gnostic sections tonight?
> ...


Or the Gnostic gospels? I have a copy. Did you know there's a gospel of Judas? I haven't seen that book in a while. Maybe I ought to dig it out again.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So...have you read either the Holy Bible or Jefferson's bible? Just curious.


Geez, I spend a good fifteen minutes on a response and then lost the whole darned thing. 
I will do my best to quickly reproduce my ever so important reply.

I have read the Bible, never front to back. I am much too disorganized and flighty for that. I have also read portions of the Quran, pieces of the Torah, the Four Noble Truths, bits of Confucious. 
That is how I waste hours of my days, in discovering bits of information that other people start for me and I pick up and explore. 
I have not read Jefferson's piece. It is easy enough to think of the life of Jesus as teacher and philosopher sans the supernatural pieces. I don't need a person of historical significance that I have little respect for to recognize that.

Aren't you glad you asked?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Good for you on following through on the complaint.



EveMCooke said:


> I have just downloaded a free sample of the above onto my Kindle. The entire work is only $1 from Amazon and there are three excellent references to the work there. Apparently it only takes a few hours to read as it is under 100 pages. Only problem is I have mislaid the cable that connects my Kindle to the charger so I had to go any buy another one, cost $27. I have searched the entire house and cannot find it. I had it yesterday when I changed cords to charge the ipad and put it down somewhere. It is in a small wooden box with Woodstock Tea written on the side so we are not just looking for a cord. I called into Dick Smith, who sell the Kindle here. A most rude sales assistant. She said "we do not sell the chargers" and walked off. I followed her and said "I do not want the charger, I just want the connecting cord", I knew they sold Belkin products and one of them would fit. She said "Ring Kindle sales service" and walked off again. I walked after her asking "Do you know how much it costs to ring America?", and she walked off again. I followed and she said "go on EBay". I tried to talk to her but she was more interested in dusting the shelves so I am sorry I lost it and said "Oi, Bitch, back here, I am talking to you", sorry but that is a typical Aussie response. The guy at the till said "Do not swear in this store" . I tried to tell him that she was rude, wandering off when a customer was talking to her, but he just kept repeating "do not swear in this store". By the way, the word 'bitch' is not considered swearing in Australia, we use stronger language and it is still not considered swearing. I went to the other Dick Smith store and told them what I wanted, I also told them about the service in the other store. They went to the display and brought back the product I wanted, telling me if it was not correct to return it to them. They were also very interested in hearing about the staff in the other store. They gave me a complaint form to fill in and send to Dick Smith's headquarters. They said if I did not know the assistant's names it did not matter, just put the date and time on the complaint form and they could check the work rosters for the sales assistants' names. They said she definitely should not have walked away when a customer was talking to her, even if she had been called a bitch. As with all bad service, I will tell everyone I know about the bad service I received from Dick Smith in Midland Gate Shopping Centre. Enough for my rant of the day. But I am looking forward to reading the free sample of the book, I will probably end up buying it in a few hours. Thanks for referring it to us to read. One must read widely in order to increase ones knowledge of many things.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Well, I would never have weighed in on the democracy/republic debate because I don't believe this country is either today. We're about 3/5 of the way to oligarchy and I believe that in 20 years or less (or after the next republican administration, whichever comes first) this country will either be a theocratic oligarchy or a full-blown theocracy.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

jbandsma said:


> Well, I would never have weighed in on the democracy/republic debate because I don't believe this country is either today. We're about 3/5 of the way to oligarchy and I believe that in 20 years or less (or after the next republican administration, whichever comes first) this country will either be a theocratic oligarchy or a full-blown theocracy.


I agree, really. 
Which is why I think that historically it is good to realize what intent may have been it doesn't really have a,hmmm, thorough impact on what we are operating in today. 
I do love that at least as the rich folks spend more and more to influence the vote the people demonstrate that they don't like it by getting out as voters in larger and larger numbers.

The trouble is, as you have said, that the people we elect are then influenced by those people who are more like them than we are.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

jellen said:


> That is simply not true. Where did you get such an idea?
> 
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy


In its truest form, democracy is rule by the people. The word, like so many others, has evolved over time. While people SAY we are a representative democracy or a representative republic, we are neither. Both terms have evolved from their original meanings. We vote for representatives, but they don't represent us. In effect, we have an elected tyranny. In its truest form, democracy is rule by the people. A republic is rule by representative. Communism by definition, is where everyone works and shares equally. None of these forms of government are true anymore. The people have allowed governments to slowly change these meanings over time. The evolution of governments has moved toward control and away from freedom and independence.

This article kind of explains what I mean. http://www.whatisdemocracy.net/


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

jellen said:


> Geez, I spend a good fifteen minutes on a response and then lost the whole darned thing.
> I will do my best to quickly reproduce my ever so important reply.
> 
> I have read the Bible, never front to back. I am much too disorganized and flighty for that. I have also read portions of the Quran, pieces of the Torah, the Four Noble Truths, bits of Confucious.
> ...


I am glad the question was asked because I enjoyed reading your response.

Regarding your typing a long response and then loosing it, well I thought I was the only one who did that. I have often said that I would type the reply in Word and then cut and paste it. You can save your Word document at stages. But, of course, I do not do that do I. It is so frustrating, and then you have lost the momentum and really cannot feel the urge to rethink and retype all that you have lost.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Thanks for letting me know for sure that I am not the only one. 
It can be extremely annoying, it is my own fault, though, as you say I could avoid it easily enough.



EveMCooke said:


> I am glad the question was asked because I enjoyed reading your response.
> 
> Regarding your typing a long response and then loosing it, well I thought I was the only one who did that. I have often said that I would type the reply in Word and then cut and paste it. You can save your Word document at stages. But, of course, I do not do that do I. It is so frustrating, and then you have lost the momentum and really cannot feel the urge to rethink and retype all that you have lost.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Well, I would never have weighed in on the democracy/republic debate because I don't believe this country is either today. We're about 3/5 of the way to oligarchy and I believe that in 20 years or less (or after the next republican administration, whichever comes first) this country will either be a theocratic oligarchy or a full-blown theocracy.


I think we're definitely an oligarchy but the theocratic part is just a distraction to keep the people busy arguing with each other. I don't think that the 1% believe in anything but greed and power. The masses focus their attention on issues. We should be looking at what they're doing not what they're saying. The big picture is simply one where "they" own everything, including us.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

I guess what I don't understand, (the link you provided reminded me of this piece, so thanks for that) is why people don't contemplate the difference between having the right to speak out and "be represented", to speak out and say what each of us thinks, to speak out and try to articulate what we think is the best way to handle things and actually getting what we think needs to be done accepted by all of the other people who also deserve representation. 
That is what democracy is the ability to make yourself heard, it is not the right to have one's ideas implemented. 
Anyone who does not get heard in a democracy is not doing their job as a member of that society.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> In its truest form, democracy is rule by the people. The word, like so many others, has evolved over time. While people SAY we are a representative democracy or a representative republic, we are neither. Both terms have evolved from their original meanings. We vote for representatives, but they don't represent us. In effect, we have an elected tyranny. In its truest form, democracy is rule by the people. A republic is rule by representative. Communism by definition, is where everyone works and shares equally. None of these forms of government are true anymore. The people have allowed governments to slowly change these meanings over time. The evolution of governments has moved toward control and away from freedom and independence.
> 
> This article kind of explains what I mean. http://www.whatisdemocracy.net/


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Well, I would never have weighed in on the democracy/republic debate because I don't believe this country is either today. We're about 3/5 of the way to oligarchy and I believe that in 20 years or less (or after the next republican administration, whichever comes first) this country will either be a theocratic oligarchy or a full-blown theocracy.


Well, that's depressing. The theocracy part, I mean. So is the oligarchy part, but that's been in the works for so long that it's clearly inevitable.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

jellen said:


> Geez, I spend a good fifteen minutes on a response and then lost the whole darned thing.
> I will do my best to quickly reproduce my ever so important reply.
> 
> I have read the Bible, never front to back. I am much too disorganized and flighty for that. I have also read portions of the Quran, pieces of the Torah, the Four Noble Truths, bits of Confucious.
> ...


Thanks for answering. It sounded as if you had, so I was curious. I have an inquisitive mind but I have no wish to read the Jefferson bible. I believe as others have said, no man should change the word of GOD. I know that different translations have been made but I believe that the true meaning has been restored. I also believe that UNDERSTANDING the bible is a process that comes with time and study. Often meanings are hidden in other parts of the bible. So, if you take one passage and try to interpret it, you may not be understanding its true meaning. I have read the bible cover to cover, twice. But my understanding comes when I read the experts who can relate one part to another. Those who truly KNOW the word, can direct me where to look, and how to study.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Well, that's depressing. The theocracy part, I mean. So is the oligarchy part, but that's been in the works for so long that it's clearly inevitable.


Take the money the mega churches are pouring into right wing politics (now that where the money comes from is no longer required to be reported) and what do you get? Even the Koch brothers can't meet that level.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think we're definitely an oligarchy but the theocratic part is just a distraction to keep the people busy arguing with each other. I don't think that the 1% believe in anything but greed and power. The masses focus their attention on issues. We should be looking at what they're doing not what they're saying. The big picture is simply one where "they" own everything, including us.


This is one point on which I agree with you.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> I guess what I don't understand, (the link you provided reminded me of this piece, so thanks for that) is why people don't contemplate the difference between having the right to speak out and "be represented", to speak out and say what each of us thinks, to speak out and try to articulate what we think is the best way to handle things and actually getting what we think needs to be done accepted by all of the other people who also deserve representation.
> That is what democracy is the ability to make yourself heard, it is not the right to have one's ideas implemented.
> Anyone who does not get heard in a democracy is not doing their job as a member of that society.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

jellen said:


> Thanks for letting me know for sure that I am not the only one.
> It can be extremely annoying, it is my own fault, though, as you say I could avoid it easily enough.


It happens to me all of the time. The longer the reply and the more effort I put into it, the more likely I am to lose it. Frustration!


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks for answering. It sounded as if you had, so I was curious. I have an inquisitive mind but I have no wish to read the Jefferson bible. I believe as others have said, no man should change the word of GOD. I know that different translations have been made but I believe that the true meaning has been restored. I also believe that UNDERSTANDING the bible is a process that comes with time and study. Often meanings are hidden in other parts of the bible. So, if you take one passage and try to interpret it, you may not be understanding its true meaning. I have read the bible cover to cover, twice. But my understanding comes when I read the experts who can relate one part to another. Those who truly KNOW the word, can direct me where to look, and how to study.


The thing about the Jefferson bible is that he took JUST the teachings of Jesus for his book. And every one of those teachings are the things churches are railing against today.

Feed the hungry? Hell no, they'll be just like stray cats, you'll never get rid of them.

Clothe the naked? Jail jumpsuits will do. They wouldn't be naked if they'd just get a job.

Shelter the homeless? You have GOT to be kidding.

Give away everything you have to the poor in order to be part of this religion? Boy do you need meds.

So why won't you read it?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

jellen said:


> I guess what I don't understand, (the link you provided reminded me of this piece, so thanks for that) is why people don't contemplate the difference between having the right to speak out and "be represented", to speak out and say what each of us thinks, to speak out and try to articulate what we think is the best way to handle things and actually getting what we think needs to be done accepted by all of the other people who also deserve representation.
> That is what democracy is the ability to make yourself heard, it is not the right to have one's ideas implemented.
> Anyone who does not get heard in a democracy is not doing their job as a member of that society.


I speak out all of the time! I write letters. I send e mails. I call. It makes no difference. They are always ready to respond with a form letter written by some flunkie. I've even questioned my representatives in person about their responses in these letters. They haven't read them and don't even know what they say.

Here is a perfect example of the fact that our representatives don't represent us. Nebraskans were adamantly opposed to obamacare. Overwhelmingly so! But it was our senator Ben Nelson, who cast the deciding vote. He tried to muddy the waters with the " cornhusker kickback" to convince the people that he was representing us. It didn't work! He couldn't show he face in public without being booed and openly chastised. Nebraskans were not represented! They had an agenda and he followed it!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> The thing about the Jefferson bible is that he took JUST the teachings of Jesus for his book. And every one of those teachings are the things churches are railing against today.
> 
> Feed the hungry? Hell no, they'll be just like stray cats, you'll never get rid of them.
> 
> ...


Because he picked and chose what he wanted. He distorted the word of GOD. Also, when you speak of the churches, know this. I do not believe that the churches are "the churches" anymore. I am not speaking of ALL churches. But I believe that the vast majority of churches have been infiltrated by satan. So your statement holds some truths. The true church seeks to do GOD'S work. And that includes feeding and caring for the poor. Satan has done a wonderful job convincing the world that GOD'S followers are evil and selfish. Just because someone SAYS they are a Christian, doesn't mean that they are. Each should be judged by their words and deeds.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I speak out all of the time! I write letters. I send e mails. I call. It makes no difference. They are always ready to respond with a form letter written by some flunkie. I've even questioned my representatives in person about their responses in these letters. They haven't read them and don't even know what they say.
> 
> Here is a perfect example of the fact that our representatives don't represent us. Nebraskans were adamantly opposed to obamacare. Overwhelmingly so! But it was our senator Ben Nelson, who cast the deciding vote. He tried to muddy the waters with the " cornhusker kickback" to convince the people that he was representing us. It didn't work! He couldn't show he face in public without being booed and openly chastised. Nebraskans were not represented! They had an agenda and he followed it!


Not they, WE, the rest of the citizens that you share this nation with. 
There is no such thing as one senator "who cast the deciding vote". The majority voted for the bill. 
I think it is wonderful that Mr. Nelson was willing to take the uncivil abuse of people to do what was right. 
I think it is so disrepectful to represent a person in public service as a flunky. 
Please rethink that stance.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Oh My God.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Because he picked and chose what he wanted. He distorted the word of GOD. Also, when you speak of the churches, know this. I do not believe that the churches are "the churches" anymore. I am not speaking of ALL churches. But I believe that the vast majority of churches have been infiltrated by satan. So your statement holds some truths. The true church seeks to do GOD'S work. And that includes feeding and caring for the poor. Satan has done a wonderful job convincing the world that GOD'S followers are evil and selfish. Just because someone SAYS they are a Christian, doesn't mean that they are. Each should be judged by their words and deeds.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Because he picked and chose what he wanted. He distorted the word of GOD.


Last time I looked, the gospels were written by MEN. In fact, so was everything else.

And he distorted nothing. Didn't change a single word of the passages he chose...those same things in today's bibles that are written in red.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Actually every one of the Democratic Senators that voted for Obamacare cast the deciding vote.


Well bless your little heart for wanting people who are sick not to get health care insurance that doesn't drive them into bankruptcy.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> The thing about the Jefferson bible is that he took JUST the teachings of Jesus for his book. And every one of those teachings are the things churches are railing against today.
> 
> Feed the hungry? Hell no, they'll be just like stray cats, you'll never get rid of them.
> 
> ...


You are completely wrong in your statements. However, you can believe anything you wish. I'll state you do not know nor understand the hearts of Christians nor do you accurately describe them. How could you, you are not one nor understand how a Christian thinks, acts or believes.

BTW: How many of the illegal alien children from Guatemala have you fed and taken into your home or clothed with your funds? How much to you do for others and charity? What teachings do you follow and do you like _anyone _ or only chastise and bash Christians?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Because he picked and chose what he wanted. He distorted the word of GOD. Also, when you speak of the churches, know this. I do not believe that the churches are "the churches" anymore. I am not speaking of ALL churches. But I believe that the vast majority of churches have been infiltrated by satan. So your statement holds some truths. The true church seeks to do GOD'S work. And that includes feeding and caring for the poor. Satan has done a wonderful job convincing the world that GOD'S followers are evil and selfish. Just because someone SAYS they are a Christian, doesn't mean that they are. Each should be judged by their words and deeds.


Satan??? I think self-righteous people do a good job all by themselves!


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You are completely wrong in your statements. However, you can believe anything you wish. I'll state you do not know nor understand the hearts of Christians nor do you accurately describe them. How could you, you are not one nor understand how a Christian thinks, acts or believes.
> 
> BTW: How many of the illegal alien children from Guatemala have you fed and taken into your home or clothed with your funds? How much to you do for others and charity? What teachings do you follow and do you like _anyone _ or only chastise and bash Christians?


There are many Christians who deserve to be bashed.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Actually every one of the Democratic Senators that voted for Obamacare cast the deciding vote.


And not ONE Republican voted for Obamacare, ever.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

These folks have the right to believe they have the answers. 
It is always interesting when they finally admit that they cannot accept any differences and that Satan (koff, koff) is at the root of those differences. 
I have the right to believe that their intolerance is a sickness.



alcameron said:


> There are many Christians who deserve to be bashed.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> How much to you do for others and charity? What teachings do you follow and do you like _anyone _ or only chastise and bash Christians?


What I do or not is not anyone else's business. -I- don't have anyone to answer to. The only thing I will say is that whatever we donate, whatever charities we support, we DO NOT take income tax deductions for them. It's not charitable to do something only for a monetary advantage later.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

jellen said:


> These folks have the right to believe they have the answers.
> It is always interesting when they finally admit that they cannot accept any differences and that Satan (koff, koff) is at the root of those differences.
> I have the right to believe that their intolerance is a sickness.


Isn't Satan the 4th arm of the trinity? (Where do you think Douglas Adams got the idea of 4 books for the Hitchhiker 'trilogy'?)

This is probably the best I've seen lately.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Since I don't believe in a trinity or a satan, it is really hard to say. 
I didn't know that there were four books or that the hitchhiker series was supposed to be a trilogy.   



jbandsma said:


> Isn't Satan the 4th arm of the trinity? (Where do you think Douglas Adams got the idea of 4 books for the Hitchhiker 'trilogy'?)
> 
> This is probably the best I've seen lately.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> And not ONE Republican voted for Obamacare, ever.


And this is something to be proud of? When it comes to our government doing anything to help the less fortunate or anyone who could benefit from "social" programs, repubs almost always vote against it. How Christian is it to vote against helping people obtain health insurance, for example? The stock answer is that Jesus wanted INDIVIDUALS to help others, not governments. That's a perfect example of rationalizing to soothe one's conscience.
And then, I'll be accused of bashing Christians.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

...except, of course, when the "faith based programs" grab that federal dollar and run with it.



alcameron said:


> And this is something to be proud of? When it comes to our government doing anything to help the less fortunate or anyone who could benefit from "social" programs, repubs almost always vote against it. How Christian is it to vote against helping people obtain health insurance, for example? The stock answer is that Jesus wanted INDIVIDUALS to help others, not governments. That's a perfect example of rationalizing to soothe one's conscience.
> And then, I'll be accused of bashing Christians.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> Oh My God.


The Devil with that!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Satan??? I think self-righteous people do a good job all by themselves!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> These folks have the right to believe they have the answers.
> It is always interesting when they finally admit that they cannot accept any differences and that Satan (koff, koff) is at the root of those differences.
> I have the right to believe that their intolerance is a sickness.


It's not just a right; it's a duty.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Isn't Satan the 4th arm of the trinity? (Where do you think Douglas Adams got the idea of 4 books for the Hitchhiker 'trilogy'?)
> 
> This is probably the best I've seen lately.


No fair bringing in Gregory Peck. He could convince me of anything.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> Since I don't believe in a trinity or a satan, it is really hard to say.
> I didn't know that there were four books or that the hitchhiker series was supposed to be a trilogy.


Then you've missed out on a lot of fun by not reading it - that is, if you enjoy over-the-top humor.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> And this is something to be proud of? When it comes to our government doing anything to help the less fortunate or anyone who could benefit from "social" programs, repubs almost always vote against it. How Christian is it to vote against helping people obtain health insurance, for example? The stock answer is that Jesus wanted INDIVIDUALS to help others, not governments. That's a perfect example of rationalizing to soothe one's conscience.
> And then, I'll be accused of bashing Christians.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

jellen said:


> Since I don't believe in a trinity or a satan, it is really hard to say.
> I didn't know that there were four books or that the hitchhiker series was supposed to be a trilogy.


Well, actually the Hitchhiker 'trilogy' ended up with -5- books.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> ...except, of course, when the "faith based programs" grab that federal dollar and run with it.


and also :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> What I do or not is not anyone else's business. -I- don't have anyone to answer to. The only thing I will say is that whatever we donate, whatever charities we support, we DO NOT take income tax deductions for them. It's not charitable to do something only for a monetary advantage later.


And what anyone else does is not your business, yet you bash and bash again Christians or anyone you don't agree with and tell others how they think and should behave (especially Christians) at least on this thread with your words.

You are very cynical. I do not do _anything_ for another because of what I receive in return. I'm not surprised that is what you mentioned though.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Isn't Satan the 4th arm of the trinity? (Where do you think Douglas Adams got the idea of 4 books for the Hitchhiker 'trilogy'?)
> 
> This is probably the best I've seen lately.


Wrong again, no surprise. Please stop trying to explain or make statements about Christians. Talk about something you know something about please.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Wrong again, no surprise. Please stop trying to explain or make statements about Christians. Talk about something you know something about please.


Take your own advice. I make statements about what I observe and you are very close to the best evidence of what I say. (Very close second)


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Take your own advice. I make statements about what I observe and you are very close to the best evidence of what I say. (Very close second)


Sweetie, you don't have a clue of what I represent and it has been proven to you what you don't know.

Bash away - it is what you know best.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

jellen said:


> Not they, WE, the rest of the citizens that you share this nation with.
> There is no such thing as one senator "who cast the deciding vote". The majority voted for the bill.
> I think it is wonderful that Mr. Nelson was willing to take the uncivil abuse of people to do what was right.
> I think it is so disrepectful to represent a person in public service as a flunky.
> Please rethink that stance.


Mr. Nelson did NOT do his job. His WAS the deciding vote. Without his vote, obamacare would not have passed! What he did was NOT right because he was supposed to represent his constituents. If our senators will not represent us, we are neither a democracy NOR a republic!

I'm sorry you don't like the word " flunky". Its use was valid.

flun·ky
ˈfləNGkē/Submit
nounderogatory
a liveried manservant or footman.
synonyms:	servant, lackey, steward, butler, footman, valet, attendant, page More
a person who performs relatively menial tasks for someone else, especially obsequiously.
synonyms:	minion, lackey, hireling, subordinate, underling, servant; More
Origin

mid 18th century (originally Scots): perhaps from flank in the sense a person who stands at one's flank.
Translate flunky to
Use over time for: flunky


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

jellen said:


> Oh My God.


Yup!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Well bless your little heart for wanting people who are sick not to get health care insurance that doesn't drive them into bankruptcy.


Don't think for one minute that o care isn't going to drive people into bankruptcy. Many people will now be paying far more for their healthcare (me, included). As a cancer survivor, this concerns me. I had far better coverage before o care. If I get sick again, it will bankrupt us. And don't forget, healthcare isn't free! The middle class is footing the bill. Soon, the middle class will cease to exist. The burden is too great.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

alcameron said:


> There are many Christians who deserve to be bashed.


Just because someone SAYS they are Christian, doesn't mean that they are! We are known by our fruits. The ones you refer to, aren't really Christians.


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

But I guess you love the Affordable Care Act?


----------



## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Just because someone SAYS they are Christian, doesn't mean that they are! We are known by our fruits. The ones you refer to, aren't really Christians.


Can you possibly drag out any more logical fallacies? If you say you are X, Y or Z then the only way of knowing that is what you identify with.

The fruits you have born here are thoroughly rotten.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> Then you've missed out on a lot of fun by not reading it - that is, if you enjoy over-the-top humor.


You don't think I get enough laughs here? 
Oh, and that place down the street that we laughing call a medical facility?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> You don't think I get enough laughs here?
> Oh, and that place down the street that we laughing call a medical facility?


Laughs? Here? Frankly, it makes me so concerned for the future that I expect an anxiety attack. Then I can go to that place down the street.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Seriously, Poor Purl, seeing that stupid stretching doesn't make you laugh out loud?


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> For most taxpayers, who do not own a home, would need to give $6000 (single) or $12,000 (married) to make taking a deduction worth while. Personally I would rather give anonymously so the recipient does not know who gave it. I have not taken a tax deduction in over 30 years, nor do I know how much I have given away.


careful ma'am, your halo is blinding.

:twisted:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Can you possibly drag out any more logical fallacies? If you say you are X, Y or Z then the only way of knowing that is what you identify with.
> 
> The fruits you have born here are thoroughly rotten.


Are you saying that I could declare myself to be anything I want to be? A doctor? A lawyer? We are not necessarily who we say we are! Many who call themselves Christians are not. Christians try to emulate CHRIST! They are known by their fruits. They forgive. They seek forgiveness. They help others. Those you speak of, are Christians in name only!

Why do you say that the fruits I have born here are thoroughly rotten?!? I try very hard to treat others With respect. I have never called anyone a name. I have encouraged forgiveness. I have tried my best to be a bridge between the two sides. I'm very sorry that I have given you reason to think that the fruits that I have born here, are rotten.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

This topic has deteriorated thoroughly. Has anyone else noticed?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Dearest dumpling, it is you who have no clue.



knitpresentgifts said:


> Sweetie, you don't have a clue of what I represent and it has been proven to you what you don't know.
> 
> Bash away - it is what you know best.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

damemary said:


> This topic has deteriorated thoroughly. Has anyone else noticed?


For sure. Maybe it's time to put it out of it's misery---


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> I found this interesting:
> 
> Harvard Educated Michelle Obama Says Founders Not Born In America
> 
> ...


Um...she was right. NONE of the founding fathers were born Americans, but became Americans. America as a country didn't exist when they were born. The original 13 "states" were then colonies. There is a reason they were called "founding fathers," you know...they helped found our country.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

damemary said:


> Dearest dumpling, it is you who have no clue.


Whatever it is KPG represents is declined by any individual with a brain and compassion.
:hunf:


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

What I have noticed, my dear sweet woman, is that very few people seem to be able to think and talk about any subject without personalizing it to an extreme degree. Have you noticed that?



damemary said:


> This topic has deteriorated thoroughly. Has anyone else noticed?


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

jellen said:


> What I have noticed, my dear sweet woman, is that very few people seem to be able to think and talk about any subject without personalizing it to an extreme degree. Have you noticed that?


I guess, with some subjects. (If you're talking to me---)


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

HAHAHAHHAAAA !


maysmom said:


> I guess, with some subjects. (If you're talking to me---)


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Thank you, sumpleby, sometimes I just cannot respond.



sumpleby said:


> Um...she was right. NONE of the founding fathers were born Americans, but became Americans. America as a country didn't exist when they were born. The original 13 "states" were then colonies. There is a reason they were called "founding fathers," you know...they helped found our country.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Have you seen any of the stories, damemary, since the feds finally let reporters in to the detention centers for the children brought here by coyotes?



damemary said:


> Dearest dumpling, it is you who have no clue.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jellen said:


> Seriously, Poor Purl, seeing that stupid stretching doesn't make you laugh out loud?


Yes, it does. But obviously Michelle Obama says dumb things. Unlike Michele Bachmann, who said that the revolution began in New Hampshire and that John Quincy Adams was one of the Founding Fathers.


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

maysmom said:


> For sure. Maybe it's time to put it out of it's misery---


No, no, no, never had so much fun with one single topic.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> No, no, no, never had so much fun with one single topic.


Why, you little witch. I'm having anxiety attacks, and you're having fun? (I love being able to call someone a witch and not have it be a euphemism for something else.)


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

I love being called a witch. In the circle of life , I am a rattler snake tooth, sometimes I bite, but mostly it's just noise. Anxiety attacks call for a schnapps, cognac , or something else as long as it burns in your belly. By the way, I am drinking homemade Limoncello right now, out of the freezer straith in the head.


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Why, you little witch. I'm having anxiety attacks, and you're having fun? (I love being able to call someone a witch and not have it be a euphemism for something else.)


Here is the limoncello, guarded by one of my cats, Pinseli ( means little brush in Swiss )


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> Here is the limoncello, guarded by one of my cats, Pinseli ( means little brush in Swiss )


What a stunning cat Pinseli is! Limoncello is nice, but I think I'd like some Jameson's tonight - I don't know why.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Some Amaretto di Saronna with OJ would be nice. The resulting banger of a headache wouldn't be, though. Nice kitty, looks like part Maine ****. Do they have those is Switzerland? Or maybe Siberian or Norwegian forest cat?


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Why, you little witch. I'm having anxiety attacks, and you're having fun? (I love being able to call someone a witch and not have it be a euphemism for something else.)


Uh oh, pearlescent one, you've smacked that cone-shaped headgear right off my noggin!!

:twisted: :twisted:


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

maysmom said:


> Some Amaretto di Saronna with OJ would be nice. The resulting banger of a headache wouldn't be, though. Nice kitty, looks like part Maine ****. Do they have those is Switzerland? Or maybe Siberian or Norwegian forest cat?


It's a main ****, 12 years old


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> It's a main ****, 12 years old


Then he must be smart as well as beautiful and incredibly soft. They are amazing cats. Well, all cats are amazing, but ***** are just a little more so.


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Then he must be smart as well as beautiful and incredibly soft. They are amazing cats. Well, all cats are amazing, but ***** are just a little more so.


I have another one, not so smart, one day she will just drop in the pool


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> I have another one, not so smart, one day she will just drop in the pool


But she's really cool. They seem to have the same coloring. Are they siblings?


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

No Peaches is from the USA she is just 10 month old. She is from Florida. Pinseli on the other side had his own business class seat to fly in from Switzerland between my wife and I. ( she works for Lufthansa )


----------



## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

I'm a Christian but believe in Evolution and Creationism. The 7 days listed in the OT was God's time--not ours. We can all agree to disagree, can't we?


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

My son in law makes limoncello, they are so convinced that I don't drink I have not been offered any.



littlebaba said:


> I love being called a witch. In the circle of life , I am a rattler snake tooth, sometimes I bite, but mostly it's just noise. Anxiety attacks call for a schnapps, cognac , or something else as long as it burns in your belly. By the way, I am drinking homemade Limoncello right now, out of the freezer straith in the head.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Some of us can accept that others choose to believe alternate truths. Others seem not to understand that, for me belief means that I have faith that what I believe is true.
It does not mean that what I believe is carved in stone as correct. Since my belief does not exclude others from a "reward" I am hoping that I am correct, or at least that others are not. Que sera sera.



mmorris said:


> I'm a Christian but believe in Evolution and Creationism. The 7 days listed in the OT was God's time--not ours. We can all agree to disagree, can't we?


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

It will morph.



maysmom said:


> For sure. Maybe it's time to put it out of it's misery---


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

littlebaba said:


> I have another one, not so smart, one day she will just drop in the pool


...or put a hole in it and water the lawn.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Yes I have noticed it. And it makes me ill.



jellen said:


> What I have noticed, my dear sweet woman, is that very few people seem to be able to think and talk about any subject without personalizing it to an extreme degree. Have you noticed that?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Very well put, sumpleby. Thank you.



sumpleby said:


> Um...she was right. NONE of the founding fathers were born Americans, but became Americans. America as a country didn't exist when they were born. The original 13 "states" were then colonies. There is a reason they were called "founding fathers," you know...they helped found our country.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No, I've been missing the news.

Fill me in if you don't mind.



jellen said:


> Have you seen any of the stories, damemary, since the feds finally let reporters in to the detention centers for the children brought here by coyotes?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Or we will gradually drift away.



jellen said:


> It will morph.


----------



## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

Maybe we can drift away using free gas. 
OK, I know it is NOT an Adam and Steve story. It is a story of other human rights being distorted by people who should know better in order to hurt US citizens.

http://www.factcheck.org/2013/11/free-gas-for-low-income-americans/



damemary said:


> Or we will gradually drift away.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

maysmom said:


> Uh oh, pearlescent one, you've smacked that cone-shaped headgear right off my noggin!!
> 
> :twisted: :twisted:


maysmom
always enjoy your postings. Thank you.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Mr. Nelson did NOT do his job. His WAS the deciding vote. Without his vote, obamacare would not have passed! What he did was NOT right because he was supposed to represent his constituents. If our senators will not represent us, we are neither a democracy NOR a republic!
> 
> I'm sorry you don't like the word " flunky". Its use was valid.
> 
> ...


Knitter from Nebraska
I am so happy having Obamacare, it is keeping many around us out of the Poor House. As a Nation we are graduating finally.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Huelskamp: Final Goal of Gay Marriage is to Destroy the Institution of Marriage
> 
> June 20, 2014 - 2:52 PM
> 
> ...


Another elected religious idiot heard from-- :roll:


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> maysmom
> always enjoy your postings. Thank you.


Thanks, Huck. How's things in your neck of the woods?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> I am so happy having Obamacare, it is keeping many around us out of the Poor House. As a Nation we are graduating finally.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Open you minds. It is a good thing to not fear going for checkups for fear of bankruptcy. I truly do not understand the fight.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sit. Stay.



joeysomma said:


> Huelskamp: Final Goal of Gay Marriage is to Destroy the Institution of Marriage
> 
> June 20, 2014 - 2:52 PM
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Don't you mean the same old religious idiot?



maysmom said:


> Another elected religious idiot heard from-- :roll:


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

damemary said:


> Don't you mean the same old religious idiot?


You're right, you've heard one, you've heard 'em all. They got their stupid at a 2 for 1 sale, and boy, did they stock up.


----------



## ann seal (Jan 30, 2014)

Elsie Shufflebottom said:


> That is the problem that I have. The Bible has been translated over and over, by people who have an axe to grind, and often mistranslated. The books that were chosen were not the only ones written. I still regard the Bible as a Holy Book, and a very interesting thing to read, but I do not believe everything in it. I was taught that God loves us all. If He made us in His image then how He made you, as a gay man, is right, you are also made in his image, just as I, a woman, was made in his image. And God would never regard you as an abomination. The God I was taught about loves every one of us.


A "cradle Catholic" :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Huelskamp: Final Goal of Gay Marriage is to Destroy the Institution of Marriage
> 
> June 20, 2014 - 2:52 PM
> 
> ...


Joey
I understand your passion for your anti-abortion stance, and you are welcome to it, but to believe that allowing gay people to marry threatens my marriage or any other heterosexual marriage is simply not true. We have been married for 46 years, and I don't view gay marriage as any kind of a threat to us or our marriage. Allowing people who love each other and want to commit to a relationship is a good thing. To use this issue as a political weapon against the Obama administration is just another hate-driven barrage to fire up the right wing. Focus in this country should be turned to making it better for ALL people instead of fostering more hatred and bitterness.


----------



## Mountain Stitches (May 25, 2014)

joeysomma said:


> Huelskamp: Final Goal of Gay Marriage is to Destroy the Institution of Marriage
> 
> June 20, 2014 - 2:52 PM
> 
> ...


_

Puke Barf What absolute rubbish. Have you no shame for being a messenger of so much hatred?

One of my former foster children is gay, as charitable a Christian to be found anywhere and has a wife every bit as wonderful. We are proud to have this couple and their children as part of our extended family._


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

maysmom said:


> You're right, you've heard one, you've heard 'em all. They got their stupid at a 2 for 1 sale, and boy, did they stock up.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put. I agree completely.



alcameron said:


> Joey
> I understand your passion for your anti-abortion stance, and you are welcome to it, but to believe that allowing gay people to marry threatens my marriage or any other heterosexual marriage is simply not true. We have been married for 46 years, and I don't view gay marriage as any kind of a threat to us or our marriage. Allowing people who love each other and want to commit to a relationship is a good thing. To use this issue as a political weapon against the Obama administration is just another hate-driven barrage to fire up the right wing. Focus in this country should be turned to making it better for ALL people instead of fostering more hatred and bitterness.


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

alcameron said:


> Joey
> I understand your passion for your anti-abortion stance, and you are welcome to it, but to believe that allowing gay people to marry threatens my marriage or any other heterosexual marriage is simply not true. We have been married for 46 years, and I don't view gay marriage as any kind of a threat to us or our marriage. Allowing people who love each other and want to commit to a relationship is a good thing. To use this issue as a political weapon against the Obama administration is just another hate-driven barrage to fire up the right wing. Focus in this country should be turned to making it better for ALL people instead of fostering more hatred and bitterness.


Good point :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Mountain Stitches said:


> Puke Barf What absolute rubbish. Have you no shame for being a messenger of so much hatred?
> 
> One of my former foster children is gay, as charitable a Christian to be found anywhere and has a wife every bit as wonderful. We are proud to have this couple and their children as part of our extended family.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> "Marriage" is ordained by God between a man and a woman. Anything else is made by man and it is not "Marriage." The "Gay Lifestyle" is an abomination in God's eyes.
> 
> If two men want to make a commitment to each other it can be done by contract, they do not need a marriage license.


Your so called "real marriage" is made by man too.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

joeysomma said:
 

> "Marriage" is ordained by God between a man and a woman. Anything else is made by man and it is not "Marriage." The "Gay Lifestyle" is an abomination in God's eyes.
> 
> If two men want to make a commitment to each other it can be done by contract, they do not need a marriage license.


This is all according to your opinion, not fact. It's probably a tenet of your church. Honestly, joey, I try to find any reason to get along with you, but nothing's come up yet.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> Your so called "real marriage" is made by man too.


Like I explained to my then-three year old--"Marriage is a contract between a man and a woman to ensure legal paternity of offspring." 24 years ago--thankfully, this has changed.


----------



## Xay-Zays.auntie (Aug 26, 2013)

alcameron said:


> Joey
> I understand your passion for your anti-abortion stance, and you are welcome to it, but to believe that allowing gay people to marry threatens my marriage or any other heterosexual marriage is simply not true. We have been married for 46 years, and I don't view gay marriage as any kind of a threat to us or our marriage. Allowing people who love each other and want to commit to a relationship is a good thing. To use this issue as a political weapon against the Obama administration is just another hate-driven barrage to fire up the right wing. Focus in this country should be turned to making it better for ALL people instead of fostering more hatred and bitterness.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Thinkers of the world, UNITE!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> I am so happy having Obamacare, it is keeping many around us out of the Poor House. As a Nation we are graduating finally.


Hi, Huck. Nice to see you back. Congratulations to us on our graduation!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Another elected religious idiot heard from-- :roll:


He also said (maybe I missed it, but I didn't see it in joey's post) "Your wife is desperately looking for a husband," or words to that effect.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Mountain Stitches said:


> Puke Barf What absolute rubbish. Have you no shame for being a messenger of so much hatred?
> 
> One of my former foster children is gay, as charitable a Christian to be found anywhere and has a wife every bit as wonderful. We are proud to have this couple and their children as part of our extended family.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> He also said (maybe I missed it, but I didn't see it in joey's post) "Your wife is desperately looking for a husband," or words to that effect.


And this genius' wife is sitting at home with her 8 home-schooled children who think the earth is flat and that a woman is just a maid , a nursemaid, and a sperm receptacle. Hey, if these folks keep making "armies for god" they will indeed rule the earth. Mercifully, I won't be around.

:roll:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> And this genius' wife is sitting at home with her 8 home-schooled children who think the earth is flat and that a woman is just a maid , a nursemaid, and a sperm receptacle. Hey, if these folks keep making "armies for god" they will indeed rule the earth. Mercifully, I won't be around.
> 
> :roll:


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Mountain Stitches (May 25, 2014)

maysmom said:


> And this genius' wife is sitting at home with her 8 home-schooled children who think the earth is flat and that a woman is just a maid , a nursemaid, and a sperm receptacle. Hey, if these folks keep making "armies for god" they will indeed rule the earth. Mercifully, I won't be around.
> 
> :roll:


Try getting some of these kids as foster children. They can quote the Bible frontwards, backwards and upside down. They also tend to have poor social skills, tend to be very defensive, rigid in their expectations and demands. Their self-esteem tends to be low, fearful of situations where they are not in control, and will try to take control. The boys are willing to use open aggression to attempt domination of me because they have been taught females must be submissive. The girls express their aggression in much more subtle ways.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Mountain Stitches said:


> Try getting some of these kids as foster children. They can quote the Bible frontwards, backwards and upside down. They also tend to have poor social skills, tend to be very defensive, rigid in their expectations and demands. Their self-esteem tends to be low, fearful of situations where they are not in control, and will try to take control. The boys are willing to use open aggression to attempt domination of me because they have been taught females must be submissive. The girls express their aggression in much more subtle ways.


You sound as though you've had experience in this area. What happens to these "kids" when they're full-grown? Or is the home-schooling movement too recent for that?


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Mountain Stitches said:


> Try getting some of these kids as foster children. They can quote the Bible frontwards, backwards and upside down. They also tend to have poor social skills, tend to be very defensive, rigid in their expectations and demands. Their self-esteem tends to be low, fearful of situations where they are not in control, and will try to take control. The boys are willing to use open aggression to attempt domination of me because they have been taught females must be submissive. The girls express their aggression in much more subtle ways.


I'm sure that you must have heard of Michael and Debi Pearl. They are fundies who advocate hitting babies(!) with switches (and lots of other corporal punishments that make me sick to my stomach.) Too many foster and adopted kids have died as a result of abuse and neglect at the hands of fundamentalist Christian parents.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

maysmom said:


> This is all according to your opinion, not fact. It's probably a tenet of your church. Honestly, joey, I try to find any reason to get along with you, but nothing's come up yet.


According to my bible, there's men with 300 wives and 700 concubines (accepted marriages), man who has a woman's husband murdered so he can marry her (a 'chosen' one of god), women sold to men for wives (and the plural is used so that has to mean more than one), a direction that women have to marry their rapist or be stoned to death.

Oh yeah...one man, one woman. Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be very strong in that group, does it?


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Mountain Stitches said:


> Puke Barf What absolute rubbish. Have you no shame for being a messenger of so much hatred?
> .


To keep you from having to type your first 2 words so many times (which you will find necessary if you stay), please save this to your computer and use it with my blessings...which don't mean much but I like spreading my graphic work.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> To keep you from having to type your first 2 words so many times (which you will find necessary if you stay), please save this to your computer and use it with my blessings...which don't mean much but I like spreading my graphic work.


JB, you are a master artist!!


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> According to my bible, there's men with 300 wives and 700 concubines (accepted marriages), man who has a woman's husband murdered so he can marry her (a 'chosen' one of god), women sold to men for wives (and the plural is used so that has to mean more than one), a direction that women have to marry their rapist or be stoned to death.
> 
> Oh yeah...one man, one woman. Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be very strong in that group, does it?


Oh, but...context!! (Plus, is their bible in English??)


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> According to my bible, there's men with 300 wives and 700 concubines (accepted marriages), man who has a woman's husband murdered so he can marry her (a 'chosen' one of god), women sold to men for wives (and the plural is used so that has to mean more than one), a direction that women have to marry their rapist or be stoned to death.
> 
> Oh yeah...one man, one woman. Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be very strong in that group, does it?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Mountain Stitches (May 25, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> You sound as though you've had experience in this area. What happens to these "kids" when they're full-grown? Or is the home-schooling movement too recent for that?


Home schooling is not automatically the problem. The curriculum used for the home schooling makes a critical difference in how a child views the world. A broad-based curriculum emphasizing writing skills, math skills; exploration via the Internet, field trips, science and a wide range of age-appropriate literature can produce very talented young adults.

A curriculum focused on a narrow interpretation of the Bible, excluding most modern scientific knowledge and literature can work to preserve cloistered social groups like the Amish. It does not produce young adults capable of dealing with the diversity of modern American society or the baseline scholastic skills needed to succeed in college.

Combine the knowledge-impoverished curriculum with the rigid power structure found in many fundamentalist families and you have a child/young adult suspicious and distrustful of the world beyond the family and local church group. Now combine that distrust with the confusion and anger common to most children in the foster care system. Just a barrel of fun. NOT


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## Mountain Stitches (May 25, 2014)

maysmom said:


> I'm sure that you must have heard of Michael and Debi Pearl. They are fundies who advocate hitting babies(!) with switches (and lots of other corporal punishments that make me sick to my stomach.) Too many foster and adopted kids have died as a result of abuse and neglect at the hands of fundamentalist Christian parents.


I am not generally in favor of banning any literature. My preference is to read the offensive material with a child curious about the literature. Then help the child to understand why the literature is offensive. BUT in the case of these monsters...they should be thrown in jail and the keys to their cells thrown away. Every last book, video, DVD and other media they produced should be burned.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Mountain Stitches said:


> I am not generally in favor of banning any literature. My preference is to read the offensive material with a child curious about the literature. Then help the child to understand why the literature is offensive. BUT in the case of these monsters...they should be thrown in jail and the keys to their cells thrown away. Every last book, video, DVD and other media they produced should be burned.


I agree with you. The Pearls' stuff on how to "raise godly children" is a manual on child abuse, like actress Lisa Whelchel Cauble (since divorced.) I didn't censor dd's books, but, like you, I did read them myself if I hadn't already. As for literature, many fundamentalist homeschoolers severely restrict the books their kids read. Keep 'em stupid.
How one person can effectively teach a "quiverful" is a mystery to me. Here, I'm referring to mostly fundamentalist families with 6 or more kids. I have heard of homeschooled kids who go on to college way ahead of their conventionally-educated peers.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

That is just a flat out lie. More blatant lies by religionists to sway the ignorant to hate.



joeysomma said:


> "Marriage" is ordained by God between a man and a woman. Anything else is made by man and it is not "Marriage." The "Gay Lifestyle" is an abomination in God's eyes.
> 
> If two men want to make a commitment to each other it can be done by contract, they do not need a marriage license.


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## Mountain Stitches (May 25, 2014)

There are times we have as many as nine children calling this zoo "home". Schooling is a combination of public school, tutoring and home school according to what a child needs to meet his/her learning requirements.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Mountain Stitches said:


> There are times we have as many as nine children calling this zoo "home". Schooling is a combination of public school, tutoring and home school according to what a child needs to meet his/her learning requirements.


Right! You aren't lumping them all together with worksheets, crayons, a computer with severely limited access, and a bible.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Right! You aren't lumping them all together with worksheets, crayons, a computer with severely limited access, and a bible.


And home chores probably aren't split by gender. The barf gif was made when I read how the Duggars handle chores, especially this one...the 12 year old girl had to do 14 loads of laundry a DAY while the 15 year old boy had to feed the dog. The girls were all tasked with cleaning, cooking and looking after the younger children (including teaching) while the boys never even had to help clear the table. Of course the girls also had to help with yard work.

I just saw an article on face book about how beautiful Jill Duggar's wedding dress was and the only thing I could think was that was probably the last non-maternity clothes she'll ever get to wear.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Bless you for trying with them.



Mountain Stitches said:


> Try getting some of these kids as foster children. They can quote the Bible frontwards, backwards and upside down. They also tend to have poor social skills, tend to be very defensive, rigid in their expectations and demands. Their self-esteem tends to be low, fearful of situations where they are not in control, and will try to take control. The boys are willing to use open aggression to attempt domination of me because they have been taught females must be submissive. The girls express their aggression in much more subtle ways.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> And home chores probably aren't split by gender. The barf gif was made when I read how the Duggars handle chores, especially this one...the 12 year old girl had to do 14 loads of laundry a DAY while the 15 year old boy had to feed the dog. The girls were all tasked with cleaning, cooking and looking after the younger children (including teaching) while the boys never even had to help clear the table. Of course the girls also had to help with yard work.
> 
> I just saw an article on face book about how beautiful Jill Duggar's wedding dress was and the only thing I could think was that was probably the last non-maternity clothes she'll ever get to wear.


Shoot, the girls raised the kids, Michelle didn't. She just pumped 'em out and was the human dairy bar. Wonder if they'll dissuade, shoot, forbid the older girls from marrying until all the kids can fend for themselves. Good heaven forbid there are any more babies, 
whether spawned or adopted. Poor kids.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> And home chores probably aren't split by gender. The barf gif was made when I read how the Duggars handle chores, especially this one...the 12 year old girl had to do 14 loads of laundry a DAY while the 15 year old boy had to feed the dog. The girls were all tasked with cleaning, cooking and looking after the younger children (including teaching) while the boys never even had to help clear the table. Of course the girls also had to help with yard work.
> 
> I just saw an article on face book about how beautiful Jill Duggar's wedding dress was and the only thing I could think was that was probably the last non-maternity clothes she'll ever get to wear.


OMG, I have never watched that show because I find the Duggars disgusting; yet I'm not surprised by the division of labor.

I have an issue with people having huge families -- even if they can afford them. For me, it's all about population growth and the planet not being capable of handing over 7 billion people. We see the ravages of overpopulation every day. it will only get worse.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> The Bible talks about sinners. Just because David had Bathsheba's husband killed, so he could marry her, does not mean God was pleased with him. God punished him. His son Absalom hung himself by his hair. But good things can come from sin, their son Solomon became a wise king.


And what did the boy wrong? Why must he pay, when his father was an asshole?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

littlebaba said:


> And what did the boy wrong? Why must he pay, when his father was an asshole?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

IMHO it's sick and dysfunctional.



maysmom said:


> Shoot, the girls raised the kids, Michelle didn't. She just pumped 'em out and was the human dairy bar. Wonder if they'll dissuade the older girls from marrying until all the kids can fend for themselves. Good heaven forbid there are any more babies,
> whether spawned or adopted. Poor kids.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Colorado knits said:


> OMG, I have never watched that show because I find the Duggars disgusting; yet I'm not surprised by the division of labor.
> 
> I have an issue with people having huge families -- even if they can afford them. For me, it's all about population growth and the planet not being capable of handing over 7 billion people. We see the ravages of overpopulation every day. it will only get worse.


And they use paper plates and plastic forks. JimBoob is a millionaire thanks to TLC and has an automatic dishwasher. The gall! (I think they used disposable diapers, too.)


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put.



AnnaMoss said:


> No marriage between men and hundreds of wives was ordained by God. Not to mention that it's OK to impregnate a slave if a wife cant get preggers.
> 
> You pick and choose from the bible what is ordained by God based only on what your current prejudices and bigotries tell you.
> 
> In other words you're more inspired by the hate of Satan than you are by the love of Christ.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

AnnaMoss said:


> No marriage between men and hundreds of wives was ordained by God. Not to mention that it's OK to impregnate a slave if a wife cant get preggers.
> 
> You pick and choose from the bible what is ordained by God based only on what your current prejudices and bigotries tell you.
> 
> In other words you're more inspired by the hate of Satan than you are by the love of Christ.


 And Satan is a Christian construct. Just how does anyone know what was and wasn't ordained by God? All people know is what's been drilled into their heads.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

damemary said:


> IMHO it's sick and dysfunctional.


And adored by leghumpers everywhere.

:roll:


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Just let me get this straight. Bad guy D killed somebody, because he is horny of his wife. Son A get grabbed by his ponytail for it???? Bad guy D has the wife, since they have kid S they had sex. Okay? Now this new kid S is a good guy. So if I kill somebody, somebody else get grabbed by the hair, I can have sex and a baby and your god is fine with it? Puh! I am glad my dad did not kill somebody,I would cut my hair in a heartbeat.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> And what did the boy wrong? Why must he pay, when his father was an asshole?


Sins of the fathers. Not sure of the origins of that idea since I always thought it was stupid, along with original sin.


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## Mountain Stitches (May 25, 2014)

jbandsma said:


> And home chores probably aren't split by gender.


Around here everybody learns how to cook, do dishes, sew on buttons, household chores, laundry, muck out a barn, scrap crap out of a hoof, drive a tractor, fix fence, etc., etc. No prima donnas need apply


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Mountain Stitches said:


> Around here everybody learns how to cook, do dishes, sew on buttons, household chores, laundry, muck out a barn, scrap crap out of a hoof, drive a tractor, fix fence, etc., etc. No prima donnas need apply


You got that right. What's the old saying? "You don't work, you don't eat."


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> And what did the boy wrong? Why must he pay, when his father was an asshole?


And Solomon ended up with 300 WIVES. One man, one woman? Not in that family.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> And Solomon ended up with 300 WIVES. One man, one woman? Not in that family.


Hello hello, did they already have Viagra in his time? This seems to me the real penalty handed out by his god, can you imagine this war of women? I am happy to have only one!


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> Hello hello, did they already have Viagra in his time? This seems to me the real penalty handed out by his god, can you imagine this war of women? I am happy to have only one!


And by decree of his "god", he was the only one allowed to get rid of any of them.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I feel the same way. As a matter of fact I never knew anyone objected to science for many, many years. It always seems foolish to me.



AnnaMoss said:


> I can respect someone who doesn't ignore science and genuinely takes it into consideration.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

AnnaMoss said:


> Eh it was probably the same then as it is now. The more a man tries to prove he's a masculine "playa", the more likely he's a self-loathing homosexual desperately trying to prove he's not gay.
> 
> BTW, what's the _real_ deal with Jesus wanting 12 men all to himself and ordering they leave their wives?
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And everybody has a roof over their heads and enough to eat. Works for me.



Mountain Stitches said:


> Around here everybody learns how to cook, do dishes, sew on buttons, household chores, laundry, muck out a barn, scrap crap out of a hoof, drive a tractor, fix fence, etc., etc. No prima donnas need apply


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

maysmom said:


> You got that right. What's the old saying? "You don't work, you don't eat."


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put!



AnnaMoss said:


> Representatives are supposed to use their knowledge to help their constituants not help them commit self-harm due to their mass ignorance and penchant for believing RW lies about Obamacare.
> 
> Representatives are supposed to represent in the constituents best interests, not take orders from what are too often racist in their motivations --- desperatly needing to do the opposite of what Obama puts forth simply because the refuse to cooperate with a black man.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

AnnaMoss said:


> BTW, what's the _real_ deal with Jesus wanting 12 men all to himself and ordering they leave their wives?


And what's with the boy who fled the garden, leaving his clothes behind when he heard the soldiers approaching? Mark 14:51-52

Of course the newer versions have it that he was seized, got out of his loincloth and ran away. If that's the case, what did they grab?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

AnnaMoss said:


> Eh it was probably the same then as it is now. The more a man tries to prove he's a masculine "playa", the more likely he's a self-loathing homosexual desperately trying to prove he's not gay.
> 
> BTW, what's the _real_ deal with Jesus wanting 12 men all to himself and ordering they leave their wives?
> 
> For all these Fundies know, Jesus was the FIRST gay Christian.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: I can laugh about anything.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> And what's with the boy who fled the garden, leaving his clothes behind when he heard the soldiers approaching? Mark 14:51-52
> 
> Of course the newer versions have it that he was seized, got out of his loincloth and ran away. If that's the case, what did they grab?[/quote
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> And what's with the boy who fled the garden, leaving his clothes behind when he heard the soldiers approaching? Mark 14:51-52
> 
> Of course the newer versions have it that he was seized, got out of his loincloth and ran away. If that's the case, what did they grab?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Oh, we're into bible study tonight.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

damemary said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Oh, we're into bible study tonight.


Why do you think I'm an atheist?


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Why do you think I'm an atheist?


Who said you're an atheist? (and that's not a bad thing no matter what anyone says)

By the time the proper bibles are assembled, we'll all be asleep.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Who said you're an atheist? (and that's not a bad thing no matter what anyone says)
> 
> By the time the proper bibles are assembled, we'll all be asleep.


I said it. Because it's true. And I came to that conclusion from studying the bible. People wonder why I lump it with fairy tales...because I've found they have the same elements.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> And what's with the boy who fled the garden, leaving his clothes behind when he heard the soldiers approaching? Mark 14:51-52
> 
> Of course the newer versions have it that he was seized, got out of his loincloth and ran away. If that's the case, what did they grab?


If he left his clothes behind, does this mean he was already naked? I mean, it would make no sense to get first rid of my clothes and then run.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

maysmom said:


> Who said you're an atheist? (and that's not a bad thing no matter what anyone says)
> 
> By the time the proper bibles are assembled, we'll all be asleep.


We can silent sneak in and have some fun.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> JB, you are a master artist!!


She is a genius. Have you seen her troll?


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> She is a genius. Have you seen her troll?


Woman made !


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> She is a genius. Have you seen her troll?


I finally found my Medusa head with the animated snakes but I'm still working on facial expressions.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> I finally found my Medusa head with the animated snakes but I'm still working on facial expressions.


Can't wait to see it/them. Do you have fans all over the internet, or are we it?


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> I said it. Because it's true. And I came to that conclusion from studying the bible. People wonder why I lump it with fairy tales...because I've found they have the same elements.


And you would be correct. When my daughter was 8 years old, she came to the same conclusion entirely on her own.

:?


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> We can silent sneak in and have some fun.


I'll make the popcorn again, we can always toss it at unsuspecting scholars.
:lol: :lol:


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Can't wait to see it/them. Do you have fans all over the internet, or are we it?


Some. And some that have been cyber friends for close to 25 years. Knitting is just one of my interests.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Had to see if this works on my iPad
But it doesn't move


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Had to see if this works on my iPad
> But it doesn't move


No, it won't because the iPad only downloads the first frame. Same thing happens when I try to upload them to Face Book.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Can't wait to see it/them. Do you have fans all over the internet, or are we it?


Still have a little work to do on it but here's down and dirty.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Changing over to the metric system would cost something, but it's already being done here in some situations. Large bottles of Pepsi are 2-litre, not 2-quart, and medical measurements are done in terms of centimeters ("Doctor, she's 5 centimeters dilated," not "2 inches").
> 
> When the UK switched over, they had to refigure their entire currency from pounds, shillings, pence to pounds and new pence (not new any more), but apparently they found it worth doing.


I still don't like the liter. It means nothing to me.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

littlebaba said:


> The whole worl has 24 hours system , only USA has to do something different.


Yay for AM & PM.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Once again, protection from the sun. Hair is a great protector.


On their backs, too.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Are you comparing yourself to Gandhi? At least you have no false modesty, though you have plenty to be modest about.


Lol.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> And not ONE Republican voted for Obamacare, ever.


I heard from god that John Boner voted for the ACA.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Don't think for one minute that o care isn't going to drive people into bankruptcy. Many people will now be paying far more for their healthcare (me, included). As a cancer survivor, this concerns me. I had far better coverage before o care. If I get sick again, it will bankrupt us. And don't forget, healthcare isn't free! The middle class is footing the bill. Soon, the middle class will cease to exist. The burden is too great.


Neb. only has 4 carriers. Not much for you to choose from.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

littlebaba said:


> Here is the limoncello, guarded by one of my cats, Pinseli ( means little brush in Swiss )


My grandma was Swiss. Arrived when she was 7 yrs old. I think she came from Basel. Not sure of spelling.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> "Marriage" is ordained by God between a man and a woman. Anything else is made by man and it is not "Marriage." The "Gay Lifestyle" is an abomination in God's eyes.
> 
> If two men want to make a commitment to each other it can be done by contract, they do not need a marriage license.


Your god, not mine.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

maysmom said:


> I'm sure that you must have heard of Michael and Debi Pearl. They are fundies who advocate hitting babies(!) with switches (and lots of other corporal punishments that make me sick to my stomach.) Too many foster and adopted kids have died as a result of abuse and neglect at the hands of fundamentalist Christian parents.


I never heard of this baby hitting. Horrible! Unnatural! That must be how many serial killers are made.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

maysmom said:


> Shoot, the girls raised the kids, Michelle didn't. She just pumped 'em out and was the human dairy bar. Wonder if they'll dissuade, shoot, forbid the older girls from marrying until all the kids can fend for themselves. Good heaven forbid there are any more babies,
> whether spawned or adopted. Poor kids.


Where does their money come from to care for their family? Is it from their Tv show?


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Colorado knits said:


> OMG, I have never watched that show because I find the Duggars disgusting; yet I'm not surprised by the division of labor.
> 
> I have an issue with people having huge families -- even if they can afford them. For me, it's all about population growth and the planet not being capable of handing over 7 billion people. We see the ravages of overpopulation every day. it will only get worse.


I was bored once. I watched it how people rubber neck at traffic accidents. The wife sent the husband to weight watchers cuz he was getting chubby..


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

AnnaMoss said:


> Eh it was probably the same then as it is now. The more a man tries to prove he's a masculine "playa", the more likely he's a self-loathing homosexual desperately trying to prove he's not gay.
> 
> BTW, what's the _real_ deal with Jesus wanting 12 men all to himself and ordering they leave their wives?
> 
> For all these Fundies know, Jesus was the FIRST gay Christian.


He wore a long dress and sandals and had long hair. Wait he must have been a hippie. Actually Jesus is my relative on my mother's side..


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> Where does their money come from to care for their family? Is it from their Tv show?


Undoubtedly they get a lot of money for the show, but they were doing well long before that. They own several businesses and properties. They are also extremely frugal.

I don't agree with their religious views or their politics, and I certainly wouldn't want their lifestyle. But it is their choice and no skin off my nose. They take care of themselves and don't expect others to contribute. As to older kids taking care of younger ones, that has been done forever in large families. And it wasn't all that long ago that large families were the norm.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> My grandma was Swiss. Arrived when she was 7 yrs old. I think she came from Basel. Not sure of spelling.


I used to work in Basel love this city


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

alcameron said:


> Had to see if this works on my iPad
> But it doesn't move


Still kinda cute, tho.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Where does their money come from to care for their family? Is it from their Tv show?


Go to their web site and see. He runs what is just about a hair short of a Ponzi scheme.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

jbandsma said:


> Go to their web site and see. He runs what is just about a hair short of a Ponzi scheme.


How is your dog doing, recovered?


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> How is your dog doing, recovered?


She's doing great. Gets her stitches out tomorrow then next week she can go to the groomer.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Oh she will love it, every lady loves to get a new haircut. She deserves it!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> No, it won't because the iPad only downloads the first frame. Same thing happens when I try to upload them to Face Book.


They work wonderfully on my big, fat, old desktop:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Still have a little work to do on it but here's down and dirty.


Whoo. That face is scary. That hair looks like mine today.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> I still don't like the liter. It means nothing to me.


When it's filled with wine, it's good.

Seriously, all the liter is is 1,000 cubic centimeters. It mainly means something to people who measure in centimeters. Since this country still measures volume in ounces, it's meaningless. Just think of it as "litter."


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> He wore a long dress and sandals and had long hair. Wait he must have been a hippie. Actually Jesus is my relative on my mother's side..


He also hung around with a group of guys who seemed to have no interest in women, he was very close to his mother.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Still have a little work to do on it but here's down and dirty.


Aagh! You've captured the image of an in-law!! 
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> No, it won't because the iPad only downloads the first frame. Same thing happens when I try to upload them to Face Book.


But when I emailed it, it moved!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Aagh! You've captured the image of an in-law!!
> :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


This was funny, except that I got along much better with my mother-in-law than with my own mother (whose name, of course, was Nacre).


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> Go to their web site and see. He runs what is just about a hair short of a Ponzi scheme.


Multiply that times the number of kids, and voila! gold mine!!

He's still a jerk. Mercifully, he couldn't get elected.
:XD:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> But when I emailed it, it moved!


Isn't it cute how it does that? But what you emailed was the whole file, not just the first frame.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> This was funny, except that I got along much better with my mother-in-law than with my own mother (whose name, of course, was Nacre).


"Knocker??" Could no one spell?? Ah, at least she was a shining influence. Love ya, Purl!!

any Pearl smilies out there??!!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> This was funny, except that I got along much better with my mother-in-law than with my own mother (whose name, of course, was Nacre).


OMG, it's too early in the day for this, Poor Purl.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> "Knocker??" Could no one spell?? Ah, at least she was a shining influence. Love ya, Purl!!
> 
> any Pearl smilies out there??!!


"Knocker??" Hey, no breast talk when you mention my mother. She absolutely refused to acknowledge she had any, though she always made sure they could never move.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Isn't it cute how it does that? But what you emailed was the whole file, not just the first frame.


But I used the same procedure, so I don't get it. I'm not that computer or iPad savvy.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> But I used the same procedure, so I don't get it. I'm not that computer or iPad savvy.


I have no iPad (or in fact anything made by Apple), so I don't know why the email works. But I couldn't pass up a chance of looking like a know-it-all.

It's noon here, and I'm awake.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> I still don't like the liter. It means nothing to me.


When we first moved to France, I had a rude awakening to the metric system. I went into a bakery and decided I wanted a kilo of these cute little cookies. When I saw the size of the box she started loading and the cost of the cute little cookies, I had a fast awakening to how much a kilo was!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The metric system is important to anyone in the sciences and medicine.


And the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. (If we're playing Truisms, I'm ready.)


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I have no iPad (or in fact anything made by Apple), so I don't know why the email works. But I couldn't pass up a chance of looking like a know-it-all.
> 
> It's noon here, and I'm awake.


Because the first computer I ever laid my hands on was an old iBook I've always been fond of Apple. Their products are much easier to use, in my opinion. My husband, of course, is a PC guy.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> When we first moved to France, I had a rude awakening to the metric system. I went into a bakery and decided I wanted a kilo of these cute little cookies. When I saw the size of the box she started loading and the cost of the cute little cookies, I had a fast awakening to how much a kilo was!


You lived in France? For how long? Lucky you!


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

alcameron said:


> But when I emailed it, it moved!


--this reminds me of an episode of the TV show "Bones."

A Japanese pathologist was consulting on a case with the Bones team. Said pathologist was rather outre, with several facial piercings, haircut and vocal tones that made determining that person's gender difficult. At the end, when the pathologist was leaving, several team members still couldn't tell if the dr was a boy or a girl. The team artist, Angela, said, "Oh, I'll do it," or something to that effect. She went over and hugged the dr, saying thank you, etc. The dr left, and Angela came back to the team and said," He's a he--it moved."

So now, when I see or hear "it moved--" aw, heck.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> You lived in France? For how long? Lucky you!


Not long enough or too long, however one looks at it. We were there for 2.5 years and I loved it---except for a few of the irritations that started to get to me. Things that I thought were charming and didn't bother me at first got to be a little tiresome. It was a long time ago, and I'd love to go back, but I can't get my husband to travel--plus, he has some health problems. Our son was born there with a French doctor, sage-femme, and French hospital. It was pretty different than birthing here, but what did I know? It was my first and only experience, so I had nothing to compare it to. Je'ai fait l'acouchement sans douleur et it was pretty darn good but not totally sans douleur. I've forgotten all my French.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Now, to she just where my mind is--this quote reminds me of an episode of the TV show "Bones."
> 
> A Japanese pathologist was consulting on a case with the Bones team. Said pathologist was rather outre, with several facial piercings, haircut and vocal tones that made determining that person's gender difficult. At the end, when the pathologist was leaving, several team members still couldn't tell if the dr was a boy or a girl. The team artist, Angela, said, "Oh, I'll do it," or something to that effect. She went over and hugged the dr, saying thank you, etc. The dr left, and Angela came back to the team and said," He's a he--it moved."
> 
> So now, when I see or hear "it moved--" aw, heck.


Pretty cute and a sure-fire method?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Latergators, have to split


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Pretty cute and a sure-fire method?


Not if he'd been gay.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Pretty cute and a sure-fire method?


Almost as good as a visual, lol


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Not if he'd been gay.


Precisely. Then they could have called her the Japanese equivalent of "madamoiselle." What is the Japanese equivalent of "madamoiselle?" (I'll ask Miss May, lol)


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> "Knocker??" Hey, no breast talk when you mention my mother. She absolutely refused to acknowledge she had any, though she always made sure they could never move.


Ah, a mollusk of her time. Harnesses, that's what bras were then. No Victoria's Secrets then.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The metric system is important to anyone in the sciences and medicine.


My dad had some very choice words about adding metric-calibrated tools to his workshop.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I have no iPad (or in fact anything made by Apple), so I don't know why the email works. But I couldn't pass up a chance of looking like a know-it-all.
> 
> It's noon here, and I'm awake.


It's past noon here, I'm working on "awake."


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> Oh she will love it, every lady loves to get a new haircut. She deserves it!


Mr. Terror here positively struts after a haircut. Shoot, he's sitting in the groomer's lap until we pick him up, the little Beau Brummel.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Because the first computer I ever laid my hands on was an old iBook I've always been fond of Apple. Their products are much easier to use, in my opinion. My husband, of course, is a PC guy.


Just in this room I have 3 PC's (1 XP, 2 win 7) and an iMac plus my iPad. My husband has a laptop. 

I started out on a Commodore 64. I have to tell you, though, I'd have changed over to a Mac if I knew then what I know now. If Adobe hadn't gone over the the cloud for their graphics programs I probably wouldn't have bought the Mac because buying sidegrades is more expensive than upgrades.


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## jellen (Jun 15, 2014)

alcameron said:


> Pretty cute and a sure-fire method?


Unless, of course, the he was gay.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I have no iPad (or in fact anything made by Apple), so I don't know why the email works. But I couldn't pass up a chance of looking like a know-it-all.
> 
> It's noon here, and I'm awake.


Aww, I know that you know it all!! Mendicant Marguerite, how does that sound??

:-D :-D


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

jellen said:


> Unless, of course, the he was gay.


Maybe he was happy but not gay


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Aww, I know that you know it all!! Mendicant Marguerite, how does that sound??
> 
> :-D :-D


Like a new ID.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Like a new ID.


 Uh oh, if a new poster shows up with that username...busted!!


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

littlebaba said:


> I used to work in Basel love this city


I miss my great aunts. They were so kind to us kids. A friend in Switzerland sent us a tin of hard biscuits each year. We had to soak them in milk to eat. The name was lackerlee (sp?). They were good..


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> I miss my great aunts. They were so kind to us kids.


It is just wonderful for kids to have elders who dote on them. You are lucky, and your greataunts were lucky to have you and your family.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> Go to their web site and see. He runs what is just about a hair short of a Ponzi scheme.


I can't right now. Any sites I find are messing up my tablet. I saw on Wiki he was in the Arkansas legislature and later a realtor.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> They work wonderfully on my big, fat, old desktop:


They're working on my android.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

alcameron said:


> But I used the same procedure, so I don't get it. I'm not that computer or iPad savvy.


Ipads can't view animated gifs. Search online and you'll see tips. There may be an app, I'm not sure. See if you see me dancing. Haha.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

alcameron said:


> When we first moved to France, I had a rude awakening to the metric system. I went into a bakery and decided I wanted a kilo of these cute little cookies. When I saw the size of the box she started loading and the cost of the cute little cookies, I had a fast awakening to how much a kilo was!


Bag it up! Lol.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

maysmom said:


> --this reminds me of an episode of the TV show "Bones."
> 
> A Japanese pathologist was consulting on a case with the Bones team. Said pathologist was rather outre, with several facial piercings, haircut and vocal tones that made determining that person's gender difficult. At the end, when the pathologist was leaving, several team members still couldn't tell if the dr was a boy or a girl. The team artist, Angela, said, "Oh, I'll do it," or something to that effect. She went over and hugged the dr, saying thank you, etc. The dr left, and Angela came back to the team and said," He's a he--it moved."
> 
> So now, when I see or hear "it moved--" aw, heck.


 :: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Ipads can't view animated gifs. Search online and you'll see tips. There may be an app, I'm not sure. See if you see me dancing. Haha.


I do. You're very good. Will we see you on TV soon?


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I do. You're very good. Will we see you on TV soon?


I wonder if Dancing with the Non-stars would catch on, hmmm.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> I wonder if Dancing with the Non-stars would catch on, hmmm.


To go with your banana:


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

jbandsma said:


> To go with your banana:


lol. What a pair!


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## seadog (Jan 4, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> When it's filled with wine, it's good.
> 
> Seriously, all the liter is is 1,000 cubic centimeters. It mainly means something to people who measure in centimeters. Since this country still measures volume in ounces, it's meaningless. Just think of it as "litter."


If you think of a liter as a generous quart you will have a feel for it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

seadog said:


> If you think of a liter as a generous quart you will have a feel for it.


That is how I think of it. Especially when filled with wine.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> That is how I think of it. Especially when filled with wine.


I am also fine with beer


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Ipads can't view animated gifs. Search online and you'll see tips. There may be an app, I'm not sure. See if you see me dancing. Haha.


I'm on an iPad and I can see you perfectly! I see all the animation, but when I try to post one here, It doesn't work. The animation works in emails, though.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> I am also fine with beer


I believe you're fine, period. But I don't think that beer in the US is sold in liters, is it?


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I'm on an iPad and I can see you perfectly! I see all the animation, but when I try to post one here, It doesn't work. The animation works in emails, though.


Because they were uploaded from a source that renders animated gifts...all the frames. The iPad will only show the first frame, it will only upload the first frame. The email picks up all the frames.

Go to the App Store and get gifplayer free. Then you'll be able to view them. I don't know if that will allow you to upload the full graphic though.


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I believe you're fine, period. But I don't think that beer in the US is sold in liters, is it?


I am from Switzerland, born in Germany, so beer is like mothers milk


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> I am from Switzerland, born in Germany, so beer is like mothers milk


When I was born the doctor told my mother to drink beer so she'd make lots of milk. I was a VERY happy baby.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> I am from Switzerland, born in Germany, so beer is like mothers milk


I can just picture all those smiling German babies.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I can just picture all those smiling German babies.


Yup, smiling and yodeling, too.

:-D :-D


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

See, it's not my fault than I like beer so much!


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

littlebaba said:


> See, it's not my fault than I like beer so much!


What, you yodel? I want evidence!!


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## littlebaba (Jul 20, 2013)

My grandmother even worked in a brewery


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

seadog said:


> If you think of a liter as a generous quart you will have a feel for it.


That's a good visual. Sometimes in the store the clerk asks me if I want the liter and I tell them I have to see it to know. This'll help me remember.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

alcameron said:


> I'm on an iPad and I can see you perfectly! I see all the animation, but when I try to post one here, It doesn't work. The animation works in emails, though.


OIC. I'll have to research on this problem. oops, I see you got the anwser, so don't read this.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

littlebaba said:


> I am from Switzerland, born in Germany, so beer is like mothers milk


Only beer comes out of the water faucets..... LOL.


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