# Progressives' Chat Cafe



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Anyone who would like to discuss, share and learn from one another please join me on this thread. This is a pivitol year in the U.S. as we all know. I have spoken to some of you out hear already but some of the threads got pretty long and hard to follow so we can start fresh here. Hopefully some new and old friends will join in. I'm off to bed so I'll check back in the morning and see if anyone is out here. Good night!


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## btibbs70 (Mar 23, 2011)

Not quite sure how this works, but I'll lurk until I learn


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## ChasingRainbows (May 12, 2012)

What topics?


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## Lisadick (Jan 11, 2012)

btibbs70 said:


> Not quite sure how this works, but I'll lurk until I learn


I'd ditto that.


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## Katsch (Mar 15, 2011)

Sounds interesting.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Am always open to discussion. Would like to deal with some of the issues KP'rs raise but in a more serious and open-minded manner


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## Catarry (Apr 10, 2012)

Count me in!


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## lpool23 (Nov 13, 2011)

Sounds good!


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## knitknack (Oct 30, 2011)

Count me in Lilly.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

This sounds like a good way to get a bunch of people to disagree with each other and end up getting into nasty fights that have nothing to do with knitting or crocheting. Maybe you could start a blog somewhere else. I wouldn't touch this proposed thread with a ten foot pole. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


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## Chezl (Mar 12, 2012)

craftylady49 said:


> This sounds like a good way to get a bunch of people to disagree with each other and end up getting into nasty fights that have nothing to do with knitting or crocheting. Maybe you could start a blog somewhere else. I wouldn't touch this proposed thread with a ten foot pole. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


Well said.


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## adl (May 25, 2011)

Count me in also.


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## henhouse2011 (Feb 20, 2011)

Start another blog. Invite those here to join if they wish. I agree, this site is for knitting and crocheting. Most of the blogs I belong to are serious about staying on topic. I would be interested in joining your discussion blog. The latest I heard on Thom Hartman has me banging my head on the wall.
Lee


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

henhouse2011 said:


> Start another blog. Invite those here to join if they wish. I agree, this site is for knitting and crocheting. Most of the blogs I belong to are serious about staying on topic. I would be interested in joining your discussion blog. The latest I heard on Thom Hartman has me banging my head on the wall.
> Lee


Yes, that sounds like the way to go. I forgot to say in my previous post that if you start a blog elsewhere, please give us the link so whoever wants to join can do so.


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## btibbs70 (Mar 23, 2011)

Well! If there's going to be hissin' and spittin' (DH calls it "throwin' rocks at each other"), I won't stay for long! Too much of that already worldwide :-(


Chezl said:


> craftylady49 said:
> 
> 
> > This sounds like a good way to get a bunch of people to disagree with each other and end up getting into nasty fights that have nothing to do with knitting or crocheting. Maybe you could start a blog somewhere else. I wouldn't touch this proposed thread with a ten foot pole. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
> ...


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## grammacat (Nov 30, 2011)

Well said. When threads start to go south, I delete them. Not interested in snipe remarks and nasty comments no matter what the topic. Get enough of that in the newspaper and in the news. Thought this was a knitting forum, lets keep it that way.

oops


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## grammacat (Nov 30, 2011)

Well said. When threads start to go sough, I deliete them. Not interested in snide remarks or nasty comments, get enough of that in the newspaper and in the news. Thought KP was a knitting forum. Lets keep it that way..


craftylady49 said:


> This sounds like a good way to get a bunch of people to disagree with each other and end up getting into nasty fights that have nothing to do with knitting or crocheting. Maybe you could start a blog somewhere else. I wouldn't touch this proposed thread with a ten foot pole. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


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## btibbs70 (Mar 23, 2011)

Okaaaaaay, so was that our first topic


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

In my lifetime (which has been long) I don't remember a time when the US has been in such bad shape. One of the problems is citizen (and voter) apathy. Many times when I comment to a friend, she'll say, "Oh, I'm not political." I think it behooves every voter to become involved to make wise choices at the polls. Discussions can go on without sniping and nastiness if people read, accept facts rather than lies, and make informed decisions. It is the responsibility of all of us to take voting seriously. I see nothing wrong with this thread being on a knitting forum in this section, which is reserved for non-knitting topics. (My husband disagrees with me on this point.) So where to start?


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

I am in. 
Wonder why some People feel that frank opinions and discussions are attacks or even fights.
I learn a great deal from others who differ.
We Women seem to have a talent to disagree and still
stay Friends. Many Men get drunk, into fights and add an other Enemy. I prefer Warriers whose weapons are Words rather than Guns. Words can be erased.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Amen.


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## yarnwithcats (Feb 8, 2012)

no politics, no religion


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

grammacat said:


> Well said. When threads start to go sough, I deliete them. Not interested in snide remarks or nasty comments, get enough of that in the newspaper and in the news. Thought KP was a knitting forum. Lets keep it that way..
> 
> 
> craftylady49 said:
> ...


This has not injured or killed anyone but I am sure some learned something. I certainly have.
Knitting allows me to create something while thinking, listening or even reading. Knitting time has been of great value for me
and reminds me constantly that I have many other things to do yet.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Welcome to all of you who have visited. We came together because of our handcrafts and I hope this will be a place where we come out here to share ideas, discuss the political topics of the day and learn from each other and offer encouragement to one another. I would also hope when we are giving an opinion we will let each other know it is just that, our opinion. When we state facts let's make sure they are facts and we can back them up. We may agree or disagree on our opinions but facts are facts. My opinion is that it is crucial that all Progressives vote this year if you are unable to do anything else. I see that Alcameron is concered about this too. Politicians all want your vote. I would ask that you educate yourself about your local, state and federal politicians so you give your vote to the people who have your best interests at heart. It is also my opinion that President Obama has been trying to move the country in the right direction and deserves another term to keep pushing us forward and he will get my vote. I don't think Mitt Romney can even begin to comprehend what my life or the rest of the 99% is like. Worst of all I don't believe he cares. I believe he will only look out for the needs of the 1%. So ladies please share what's on your mind and don't be afraid of being to long winded. Sometimes we have alot to say and it takes a while to get it all out there. I would also hope that if people make remarks out here that are way off topic we just ignore them and not dignify them with our comments. I think that baiting people has become a much used tool of the right and we don't need to go down to that level. When I was a little kid I learned that if you ignored the bully she would get tired and go away. See you later. Power to the People! :wink:


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## btibbs70 (Mar 23, 2011)

I'm registerd and vote. This year I shall not vote FOR but AGAINST someone.
Wish we had a prospect who could unite our country.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Hi Btibbs - Do you have anyone in mind you could vote for other than Obama or Romney or you just don't feel you have a choice? I have felt that way before too and thought I would rather not vote at all than to give it to the lesser of two evils. I would like to hear your thoughts on who you would like to see run maybe as a third party candidate.


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## btibbs70 (Mar 23, 2011)

I took this little quiz, even though it doesn't provide enough answer choices, and it really helped me focus on what I feel is important and what qualities I would like to see in a candidate. Of course no ONE person would be perfect, but I want someone who can be a steward of the country. http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/candidate-match-game


LillyK said:


> Hi - Do you have anyone in mind you could vote for other than Obama or Romney or you just don't feel you have a choice? I have felt that way before too. I would like to hear your thoughts.





alcameron said:


> It's really important to look carefully at your congressional and senatorial candidates. Remember that they're the ones who actually pass legislation and that's where the gridlock these past 3-4 years has occurred...


I've done too little in my local/state elections.


alcameron said:


> ...They need to look at the difficulties facing the people of this country and try to enact legislation to benefit all.


That's exactly what I'm talking about.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

It's really important to look carefully at your congressional and senatorial candidates. Remember that they're the ones who actually pass legislation and that's where the gridlock these past 3-4 years has occurred. We need people in our legislature who are there to represent US and not there to further political agendas--like trying to get the current president out of office. That should not be the goal of our lawmakers. They should be there to explore ways of making the people (and the government) better. They need to look at the difficulties facing the people of this country and try to enact legislation to benefit all.


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## Phoenix (Oct 2, 2011)

I'm replying because I don't want to lose this thread....I don't discuss politics or religion but I'm hoping to hear about other topics at some point.


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## Phoenix (Oct 2, 2011)

grammacat said:


> Well said. When threads start to go sough, I deliete them. Not interested in snide remarks or nasty comments, get enough of that in the newspaper and in the news. Thought KP was a knitting forum. Lets keep it that way..
> 
> 
> craftylady49 said:
> ...


Holy freakin' crap, people....this topic is under "General chit chat....it has NOTHING to do with knitting or crochet....that's why it's here....if you don't want to be a part of it, back out of the room without comment....that way you won't continue to get emails about it!


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## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

Halleluja! now you are all together in your very own thread and, Hopefully, won't feel the need to hijack other peoples.
This is a good thing


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Phoenix - I am mainly interested in current politics and how it affects us. I don't want to delve into anyone else's religion. If you have another topic of importance to you please share it.


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## btibbs70 (Mar 23, 2011)

Phoenix said:


> I'm replying because I don't want to lose this thread....I don't discuss politics or religion but I'm hoping to hear about other topics at some point.


If ever you want to watch a topic to which you have not responded, just click "Watch" next to "Bookmark."

You probably already knew this, but there may be someone here who doesn't.


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## ewe who (Jun 9, 2012)

I for one would love to disagree with agress, sense of fun needed to.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

btibbs70 said:


> I took this little quiz, even though it doesn't provide enough answer choices, and it really helped me focus on what I feel is important and what qualities I would like to see in a candidate. Of course no ONE person would be perfect, but I want someone who can be a steward of the country. http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/candidate-match-game
> 
> 
> LillyK said:
> ...


I'm going to take the USA quiz a little later. Thanks for sharing that. Good idea to check out your U.S. senators and see what you think of them if they are up for reelection and even more important who your U.S. legislator is. There is a lot of dead weight in the House of Representatives on both sides and they have sat on their butts doing nothing for far to long. Also check out your state senator and your rep. in the state house. You could have a big impact there and maybe help one of them you like get reelected. Have you ever worked on a campaign before? It can be very interesting and a lot of fun.


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## Phoenix (Oct 2, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Phoenix - I am mainly interested in current politics and how it affects us. I don't want to delve into anyone else's religion. If you have another topic of importance to you please share it.


Well, then, if this is about politics I guess I'll be the one to back out of the room....good luck with your thread. I hope it all goes well.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

ewe who said:


> I for one would love to disagree with agress, sense of fun needed to.


I agree we all need to laugh more and see the humor in things. Jokes and funny pictures are welcome too.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Phoenix said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenix - I am mainly interested in current politics and how it affects us. I don't want to delve into anyone else's religion. If you have another topic of importance to you please share it.
> ...


Phoenix - I will see you out on others threads and I thank you for your good wishes.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Phoenix said:


> grammacat said:
> 
> 
> > Well said. When threads start to go sough, I deliete them. Not interested in snide remarks or nasty comments, get enough of that in the newspaper and in the news. Thought KP was a knitting forum. Lets keep it that way..
> ...


Thanks for being the voice of reason.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

btibbs70 said:


> Phoenix said:
> 
> 
> > I'm replying because I don't want to lose this thread....I don't discuss politics or religion but I'm hoping to hear about other topics at some point.
> ...


Thanks - I did not notice this before. I learn something new everyday.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

I took the USA Today quiz and was not surprised by the results, Obama then Huntsman.


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

*This election is about survival of the middle class*. The rest is noise.

How do folks who have (known @ least someone who has) lost their jobs, homes, healthcare, 40% of their income to the über wealthy -whose income has grown 300% during the same time- vote for a person who represents the thieves w/their hands in our pockets?

The real war is being fought within our own borders & is against employees, women, the elderly, sick, disabled, gays, veterans & people who have lost everything, even though they've worked their entire lives.

*Please vote! *Vote for someone who believes in our American way of life.

Don't buy into self-righteous pronouncements of those who would have you believe they see hot-button social issues the same way you do. When you don't have a job or a car or a house or food on the table for your children, or money for medical care or prescriptions, do you think that "conservative" politician is thinking about you while his wife is secretly taking their daughter to the doctor to discreetly terminate her embarrassing situation?

Why should a government who some say shouldn't have the right to ensure that business doesn't poison our air, water & food supply, have the ability to dictate who we marry, whether we use birth control or any other personal issues?

*When did government (shared) services, ie police & fire response, building & maintaining roads, highways, airports, schools, providing clean water, sewer & garbage removal, some knowledge & beauty in public parks & museums, providing a safety net for us when we need it become a bad thing?*

*When did it become OK to sabotage our duly-elected President because of his skin color? What happened to compromising for the good of our country?*

kat


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

katrinka said:


> *This election is about survival of the middle class*. The rest is noise.
> 
> How do folks who have (known @ least someone who has) lost their jobs, homes, healthcare, 40% of their income to the über wealthy -whose income has grown 300% during the same time- vote for a person who represents the thieves w/their hands in our pockets?
> 
> ...


Thank you Miss Katrinka! I say this over and over: I will never understand how people who don't belong to the 1% can vote for people who aren't protecting the welfare and rights of the 99%.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

alcameron said:


> katrinka said:
> 
> 
> > *This election is about survival of the middle class*. The rest is noise.
> ...


 You sound like Socialist .


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

LillyK said:


> Welcome to all of you who have visited. We came together because of our handcrafts and I hope this will be a place where we come out here to share ideas, discuss the political topics of the day and learn from each other and offer encouragement to one another. I would also hope when we are giving an opinion we will let each other know it is just that, our opinion. When we state facts let's make sure they are facts and we can back them up. We may agree or disagree on our opinions but facts are facts. My opinion is that it is crucial that all Progressives vote this year if you are unable to do anything else. I see that Alcameron is concered about this too. Politicians all want your vote. I would ask that you educate yourself about your local, state and federal politicians so you give your vote to the people who have your best interests at heart. It is also my opinion that President Obama has been trying to move the country in the right direction and deserves another term to keep pushing us forward and he will get my vote. I don't think Mitt Romney can even begin to comprehend what my life or the rest of the 99% is like. Worst of all I don't believe he cares. I believe he will only look out for the needs of the 1%. So ladies please share what's on your mind and don't be afraid of being to long winded. Sometimes we have alot to say and it takes a while to get it all out there. I would also hope that if people make remarks out here that are way off topic we just ignore them and not dignify them with our comments. I think that baiting people has become a much used tool of the right and we don't need to go down to that level. When I was a little kid I learned that if you ignored the bully she would get tired and go away. See you later. Power to the People! :wink:


Well, gosh, what a shame, I agree you need to educate yourself on the people you are voting for. IN MY HUMBLE OPINION and more than half the populace, Obama has done more to destroy this country than any other president in the history of the US. May God steer us in the right direction toward the upcoming elections. Power to the People!! Amen!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

What's "socialist" about anything that has been said here?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Yes, power to the people. Please tell me specifically what Obama has done to destroy the country.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Dear People. Why is it that the most decent Presidents we ever had have had to endure the most vicious attacks?
None have been given as little respect as our present one however.
Heckling the President in the Rose Garden? How low is the GOP
sinking? I assure you that if that had happened for example to G.W. the Secret Service would have acted immediately with full force and I would have congratulated them.

My support for President Obama is growing each day. 
His patience is astounding. His tolerance admirable.
Did not vote for him last time but certainly now.

I have correspondence with People from many Countries
and they now are questioning the survival of us not just as a World Power but as a Power at all. The fractures in our political system are scary to them. They look into History and have
learned what such division can bring forth and it is nothing good.
The have learned that such rifts encourage ill meaning forces to
group and plan to step in. They are never in a hurry. Prefer to wait for the right time so that they have success.
If the Republicans think that they will come out on top, they will be more than surprised. They will suffer more than the rest of us.
I wish everyone would take the time and check as to where
a tremendous amount of money has accumulated (around the Globe) and think how dangerous the Supreme Court ruling truly is. After all we are now for Sale. The saddest of all decisions ever made.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Welcome to all of you who have visited. We came together because of our handcrafts and I hope this will be a place where we come out here to share ideas, discuss the political topics of the day and learn from each other and offer encouragement to one another. I would also hope when we are giving an opinion we will let each other know it is just that, our opinion. When we state facts let's make sure they are facts and we can back them up. We may agree or disagree on our opinions but facts are facts. My opinion is that it is crucial that all Progressives vote this year if you are unable to do anything else. I see that Alcameron is concered about this too. Politicians all want your vote. I would ask that you educate yourself about your local, state and federal politicians so you give your vote to the people who have your best interests at heart. It is also my opinion that President Obama has been trying to move the country in the right direction and deserves another term to keep pushing us forward and he will get my vote. I don't think Mitt Romney can even begin to comprehend what my life or the rest of the 99% is like. Worst of all I don't believe he cares. I believe he will only look out for the needs of the 1%. So ladies please share what's on your mind and don't be afraid of being to long winded. Sometimes we have alot to say and it takes a while to get it all out there. I would also hope that if people make remarks out here that are way off topic we just ignore them and not dignify them with our comments. I think that baiting people has become a much used tool of the right and we don't need to go down to that level. When I was a little kid I learned that if you ignored the bully she would get tired and go away. See you later. Power to the People! :wink:
> ...


To grammaollie:

Thank you for giving me a reason to speak to you. I support what LillyK is saying and I am well educated, plenty degreed, well informed, have
extradordinary Life experiences and am fiercely independent, a Student of History, not a person for anyone to tinker with (brainwash) and wish you to tell me how you have come
to your conclusions about President Obama.
I hear statements like yours and every time I try to get a
straight answer the Person spewing them, retreats with the dumbest response. By the way "love it or leave it" is one of them.
Give me and the rest of us a good reason for your position.
I love to become educated and if you can give me valuable
information that substantiates your stand, I might perhaps
change my thinking.
My position has facts to back it and therefore merit.
Give me your facts.
I am in no mood for a fight. Would not back from one but
much more wish to have an honest exchange of information.
All factual not "hand-me-downs" as we get all too much.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Yes, power to the people. Please tell me specifically what Obama has done to destroy the country.


I too want an answer to that. Such statements are made
so frequently with nothing to back them up.

Where does this cxxx come from and worse yet, who believes it and why? Is big money taking advantage of 
the economy and now also pays needy folks to speak stupid?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

One of the reasons for the Obama hatred in this country is race, plain and simple. They can't stand the thought that there's an African American sitting in the White House. 

Geez, ladies, I'm trying knit through all of this! 
And now I need a dinner break.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

alcameron said:


> What's "socialist" about anything that has been said here?


Nothing has been said here that could be marked as such, however:

Socialist is giving Billions to big Oil while they are making profits
like never before.
Socialist is having the wealthy pay less in taxes than John Q. Public.
Socialist is taking Taxpayers money and pay high Salaries to
Politicians as well as Perks, top Health Care and outstanding Pensions.
Also Socialist is SSI, Medicare and Medicaid but that is threatened because it is for the little guy. But again to separate us from the top 1%. our Social Programs are called Entitlements. Get the drift?

Now may the ones who have labeled me a Socialist, argue
this with me. Welcome.


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## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

Thank you for starting this discussion. There are many reasons each of us has for worrying about our country's future and we need to willing to consider one another's concerns. That is far from enough, though. Dismissive, derisive name calling will be unproductive. I worry about the many elected representatives who are bought by corporations and vote accordingly. It's scary to think this next election is up for sale. I believe those who are sabotaging efforts to improve the economy in order to defeat Obama must have no clue how badly they are hurting innocent people. Can we here offer our views, share opposing opinions, provide facts, check sources? Can it remain civil? It would be nice!


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

alcameron said:


> One of the reasons for the Obama hatred in this country is race, plain and simple. They can't stand the thought that there's an African American sitting in the White House.
> 
> Geez, ladies, I'm trying knit through all of this!
> And now I need a dinner break.


Do not let anyone spoil your dinner. You deserve it well.
Is it not great that one can knit and think at the same time? Wonderful craft. Now if I could knit and type my World would be complete.

NOTHING but Racism is roaming about in the GOP.
Their feelings are: How dare a not all white Man be so intelligent
and make it to the White House. Let us not forget either that 
he had probably the most intelligent opponent anyone ever faced when campaigning. Hillary is extraordinary. And both of these fine
Fellow Americans are a thorn in the backside of the GOP.
Remember how ugly they were towards Mrs. Clinton?
May we also not forget that Women and Blacks are considered 2nd class Citizens in the GOP. Welcome to our Democracy.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

tryalot said:


> Halleluja! now you are all together in your very own thread and, Hopefully, won't feel the need to hijack other peoples.
> This is a good thing


As long as you are happy, we are happy.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

ctknoll25 said:


> Thank you for starting this discussion. There are many reasons each of us has for worrying about our country's future and we need to willing to consider one another's concerns. That is far from enough, though. Dismissive, derisive name calling will be unproductive. I worry about the many elected representatives who are bought by corporations and vote accordingly. It's scary to think this next election is up for sale. I believe those who are sabotaging efforts to improve the economy in order to defeat Obama must have no clue how badly they are hurting innocent people. Can we here offer our views, share opposing opinions, provide facts, check sources? Can it remain civil? It would be nice!


Well stated.
No secret that I fear not to speak up. Get a little riled (perhaps even more than a little) at times and if I should go astray, I beg you to call my attention to it.
I am a big girl and my wounds heal quickly and I dont carry a grudge.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

ctknoll25 said:


> Thank you for starting this discussion. There are many reasons each of us has for worrying about our country's future and we need to willing to consider one another's concerns. That is far from enough, though. Dismissive, derisive name calling will be unproductive. I worry about the many elected representatives who are bought by corporations and vote accordingly. It's scary to think this next election is up for sale. I believe those who are sabotaging efforts to improve the economy in order to defeat Obama must have no clue how badly they are hurting innocent people. Can we here offer our views, share opposing opinions, provide facts, check sources? Can it remain civil? It would be nice!


Thank you. My feelings as well.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> One of the reasons for the Obama hatred in this country is race, plain and simple. They can't stand the thought that there's an African American sitting in the White House.
> 
> Geez, ladies, I'm trying knit through all of this!
> And now I need a dinner break.


I have been saying this forever and I believe it is why he can't get anything passed. It's what the birther movement is all about.
I feel sorry for him. My husband just asked me if I saw the man who interrupted him in the rose garden...just plain disrespectful.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

ctknoll25 said:


> Thank you for starting this discussion. There are many reasons each of us has for worrying about our country's future and we need to willing to consider one another's concerns. That is far from enough, though. Dismissive, derisive name calling will be unproductive. I worry about the many elected representatives who are bought by corporations and vote accordingly. It's scary to think this next election is up for sale. I believe those who are sabotaging efforts to improve the economy in order to defeat Obama must have no clue how badly they are hurting innocent people. Can we here offer our views, share opposing opinions, provide facts, check sources? Can it remain civil? It would be nice!


The whole idea of this string that I started was to allow civil discourse and sharing our views and hopefully learning. You may want to read the first post. I also asked that we state when we are offering opinions versus when we are quoting facts that we always be able to provide the source of our facts as we all have heard a lot of so called facts put out in the media that are just someone's personal opinions poorly disguised as fact. Sadly, a lot of Americans are buying into these lies. We have had some negative comments here and I had suggested that we ignore such posts. I'm not sure who you are referring to as not remaining civil? If you can please just ignore them unless you feel they are really offering something valid you disagree with then you should respond to what they posted and ask them to explain. We can agree to disagree. If I have misunderstood your intent in your post let me know. We are all out here to support each other.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Am always open to discussion. Would like to deal with some of the issues KP'rs raise but in a more serious and open-minded manner


I hear what you are saying and glad that you are willing to
participate and sure hope you won't shy away from calling me on it if I go off the cliff. I am sure I have done such.
I have been quite serious and some issues are just so
basic that there is no beating around the Bush.

Good evening.
Ingried


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

katrinka said:


> *This election is about survival of the middle class*. The rest is noise.
> 
> How do folks who have (known @ least someone who has) lost their jobs, homes, healthcare, 40% of their income to the über wealthy -whose income has grown 300% during the same time- vote for a person who represents the thieves w/their hands in our pockets?
> 
> ...


Good on you, Kat. I hope you will keep joining us out here and sharing your insights with us.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Sherry1 said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > One of the reasons for the Obama hatred in this country is race, plain and simple. They can't stand the thought that there's an African American sitting in the White House.
> ...


How dumb am I? Pretty dumb! When I saw the comments about a heckler I thought you were referring to the first time that happened to President Obama. So someone did it again! Pretty ugly and I'm afraid the ugly is just coming to the surface it's just like what floats to the top in the sewer and it isn't pretty :twisted: I think we can find strength in numbers ladies and hopefully attract more KPr's to this thread who are not the usual crackpots throwing in their .02 cents. I guess most of them are pretty easy to spot. Anyone have a topic for tomorrow they want to throw out here or is everyone falling asleep


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Not falling asleep yet. It's just 7 p.m. On the West Coast.
See how apathetic people are? Not much comment in the political arena.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

So sorry. I think MN is the center of the Universe, yah sure!


----------



## Revan (Jun 29, 2011)

Sounds interesting. Since this is in the non-knitting area I don't see a problem discussing issues affecting all of us now and in the years to come. Let us know where to comment.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Oofta!

That was for LillyK


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Revan said:


> Sounds interesting. Since this is in the non-knitting area I don't see a problem discussing issues affecting all of us now and in the years to come. Let us know where to comment.


You can comment on what others have already posted here or if you have something new you want to talk about feel free to share it with us.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

tryalot said:


> Halleluja! now you are all together in your very own thread and, Hopefully, won't feel the need to hijack other peoples.
> This is a good thing


May I hijack you to go with me tomorrow to a despicable place
(a Nursing home in a bad area) to take some of the poor Folks out for a little wheelchair ride and some fresh air?
Their knitting days unfortunately are over; their bodies are riddled with aches and pains.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Sherry1 said:
> 
> 
> > alcameron said:
> ...


I am here but dead tired. 
Topic for tomorrow? 
How can we get People to vote?

Anyone knitted some flowers (learned that from someone in the UK I think it was) and put them outside ? I did with a little rolled up note attached: "Hope you like it and thank me by voting".
The ones I put in places where flowers are usually not found, have all disappeared.
Would it not be great to do this all over and ask People to leave the Flowers where they vote to see the results and find a way to thank them?
Flower power of the 21st Century!
Am I having crazy thoughts because I am dead tired or am I waking up?


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

btibbs70 said:


> Phoenix said:
> 
> 
> > I'm replying because I don't want to lose this thread....I don't discuss politics or religion but I'm hoping to hear about other topics at some point.
> ...


I did not know that. I could be considered a Nerd of sorts but have not made it to being a computer Nerd.
Did not want to click at next to bookmark because it says "unwatch". What now? Thank you.


----------



## Phoenix (Oct 2, 2011)

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/reporter-interrupted-obama-thought-finished-220343830.html


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Ingried said:


> tryalot said:
> 
> 
> > Halleluja! now you are all together in your very own thread and, Hopefully, won't feel the need to hijack other peoples.
> ...


Thank you sister Ingried.


----------



## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

Topic for tomorrow? How about responding to the statement by a KPer today that "Obama has done more to destroy this country than any other president of the US"? Nothing is added to back this opinion. I would say he's been very successful considering the incredible maneuvers to derail his efforts. Our economy is growing, albeit not as rapidly as we'd like. Remember that we were losing 750,000 jobs a month on the day Obama took office! Now we are adding jobs. Right now there's a bipartisan transportation bill that the GOP House Leader refuses to let be put to a vote. Not only would this add thousands of good jobs but would also make our falling-apart roads and bridges safer. Okay, your turn....


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Brilliant idea, Ingried. I love it!


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Phoenix said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/reporter-interrupted-obama-thought-finished-220343830.html


Thanks, Phoenix!


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

ctknoll25 said:


> Topic for tomorrow? How about responding to the statement by a KPer today that "Obama has done more to destroy this country than any other president of the US"? Nothing is added to back this opinion. I would say he's been very successful considering the incredible maneuvers to derail his efforts. Our economy is growing, albeit not as rapidly as we'd like. Remember that we were losing 750,000 jobs a month on the day Obama took office! Now we are adding jobs. Right now there's a bipartisan transportation bill that the GOP House Leader refuses to let be put to a vote. Not only would this add thousands of good jobs but would also make our falling-apart roads and bridges safer. Okay, your turn....


Got a couple good ideas floating around out here for Saturday. Let's have a good night's sleep and continue tomorrow unless you are nite owls. :shock:


----------



## unie (Dec 4, 2011)

Not for me... I came for knitting info, get enough of politics on the news. I'll pass.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

ctknoll25 said:


> Topic for tomorrow? How about responding to the statement by a KPer today that "Obama has done more to destroy this country than any other president of the US"? Nothing is added to back this opinion. I would say he's been very successful considering the incredible maneuvers to derail his efforts. Our economy is growing, albeit not as rapidly as we'd like. Remember that we were losing 750,000 jobs a month on the day Obama took office! Now we are adding jobs. Right now there's a bipartisan transportation bill that the GOP House Leader refuses to let be put to a vote. Not only would this add thousands of good jobs but would also make our falling-apart roads and bridges safer. Okay, your turn....


What else can I add. You said it all and so well.
Wait, I can add something. !!!!Ingried, keep it short!!!!!
Bush's total mismanagement of everything will keep us in need
for AT LEAST AN OTHER DECADE. At least.
President Obama has done a remarkable job. THEY know it
and hate it so much that they are willing to destroy our Country.
We should be crawling on our knees in thanks for his work to vote for him.


----------



## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You sound like Socialist .


Why is allowing government to provide services for the good of all of people a bad thing? I believe we should have universal healthcare, too. 
The top countries in the world, many of which are European, are Social Democracies. How is that worse than being controlled by Greedy Capitalists, who want government entitlements but no regulation?
President Reagan's legacy has been a dismal failure. 
kat


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

katrinka said:


> Country Bumpkins said:
> 
> 
> > You sound like Socialist .
> ...


Excuse me I guess I made a mistake. Karl Marks is your title then. I guess you like the Communist Manifesto better than a GOP.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

katrinka said:


> Country Bumpkins said:
> 
> 
> > You sound like Socialist .
> ...


The best way to identify as to who is totally uninformed about how our Democracy works is when someone calls me a Socialist and thinks that is really bad.
Or when they receive SSI and Medicare and scream: "Keep the Government out of my Life".
Have asked such lame-brains to cancel their "entitlements".
No takers.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> katrinka said:
> 
> 
> > Country Bumpkins said:
> ...


Oi weh Einstein, you still did not get your Socks on straight.


----------



## whodlum (Jun 9, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> This sounds like a good way to get a bunch of people to disagree with each other and end up getting into nasty fights that have nothing to do with knitting or crocheting. Maybe you could start a blog somewhere else. I wouldn't touch this proposed thread with a ten foot pole. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


Or a ten foot knitting needle.


----------



## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

yarnwithcats said:


> no politics, no religion


What the hell are you going to talk aout then? The weather? Booring.


----------



## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

Ingried said:


> grammacat said:
> 
> 
> > Well said. When threads start to go sough, I deliete them. Not interested in snide remarks or nasty comments, get enough of that in the newspaper and in the news. Thought KP was a knitting forum. Lets keep it that way..
> ...


Just the same as me. I have not ridden a camel yet, although I have ridden an elephant. I have not had a parachute jump although I have ridden in a helicopter. I will miss climbine Mt Everest because I am not fond of heights. My daughter in law has made it to base camp, though. She has achieved so many things in her life. Treked in Nepal, been to almost every country in the world, including China. You name it, I think she has done it. She is also broad minded and will, and can, speak her mind.


----------



## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Welcome to all of you who have visited. We came together because of our handcrafts and I hope this will be a place where we come out here to share ideas, discuss the political topics of the day and learn from each other and offer encouragement to one another. I would also hope when we are giving an opinion we will let each other know it is just that, our opinion. When we state facts let's make sure they are facts and we can back them up. We may agree or disagree on our opinions but facts are facts. My opinion is that it is crucial that all Progressives vote this year if you are unable to do anything else. I see that Alcameron is concered about this too. Politicians all want your vote. I would ask that you educate yourself about your local, state and federal politicians so you give your vote to the people who have your best interests at heart. It is also my opinion that President Obama has been trying to move the country in the right direction and deserves another term to keep pushing us forward and he will get my vote. I don't think Mitt Romney can even begin to comprehend what my life or the rest of the 99% is like. Worst of all I don't believe he cares. I believe he will only look out for the needs of the 1%. So ladies please share what's on your mind and don't be afraid of being to long winded. Sometimes we have alot to say and it takes a while to get it all out there. I would also hope that if people make remarks out here that are way off topic we just ignore them and not dignify them with our comments. I think that baiting people has become a much used tool of the right and we don't need to go down to that level. When I was a little kid I learned that if you ignored the bully she would get tired and go away. See you later. Power to the People! :wink:


As an Aussie, I just love what you have said above. Only one thing I strongly disagree with, your second last sentence. I found out at school that ignoring the bully did not make them tire and retreat. In fact I found out that it only made them stronger and more agressive. If I retaliated it was my actions that were seen by the teacher and I was punished. I was told to ignore her and she would go away. Stupid, dumb teacher could not see she did not go away, only became worse. Nearly 60 years later I can still remember this girl and her two pals, and not with fond memories. I had these three girls in the same class room for several years and they are the main reason why I have never attended school renunions, apart from one. That was the 100 year celebration of the school opening in 2004. This girl was there and I found I could not breathe, memories kept flooding back so I left very early. It caused me bad dreams and sleepless nights for several weeks. Even now I can feel my breathing altering.

Second point. Substitute names with Aussie politicians. Change Obama to Julia Gillard and Mitt Romney to Tony Abbot. Julia has a bit of an accent and has to pause when when says "Tony Abbot" otherwise it sounds like "Tony Rabbit", and that is what I call him. Both Abbot and Romney are very religious people so I am not going to say anymore, but you will get the drift.


----------



## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Hi Btibbs - Do you have anyone in mind you could vote for other than Obama or Romney or you just don't feel you have a choice? I have felt that way before too and thought I would rather not vote at all than to give it to the lesser of two evils. I would like to hear your thoughts on who you would like to see run maybe as a third party candidate.


I think I prefer Australian Party politics. We vote in the party of choice and the party that commands the majority on the floor in the House of Representataives elects their leader, who becomes the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister can be voted out of office by their party if they are not seen to be performing or have lost the confidence of the electors, and a new Prime Minister elected and sworn in. Your President is elected independent of the general election of the parliament and you have to wait for another four years to vote for another President.


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

LillyK said:


> Phoenix - I am mainly interested in current politics and how it affects us. I don't want to delve into anyone else's religion. If you have another topic of importance to you please share it.


This is a knitting website! You are toying with very a hot topic. What do you hope to gain by your prejudial views? Now someone has said hell and that it's boring without hot topic. There are plenty blog topics on MSNBC, ABC, CBS, and FOX, I cannot understand how you can decide what a 'chat room' should be without permission from the administrators of KP!! I really hope they pay attention to this topic and shut it down.

Why not spend your time knitting a Haapsula shawl instead of creating such extreme discourse. This country is made up of primarily 2 political parties, Democrats and Republicans. The Progressive Party has been trying to get a foothold in our government for many years using many guises. This is what you are advocating!


----------



## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

Phoenix said:


> grammacat said:
> 
> 
> > Well said. When threads start to go sough, I deliete them. Not interested in snide remarks or nasty comments, get enough of that in the newspaper and in the news. Thought KP was a knitting forum. Lets keep it that way..
> ...


I don't get emails about any topics, whether or not I have posted comments. I think it was a box I ticked, or unticked somewhere, possibly on my profile. I open most topics and if I am not interested I just choose another topic. One man's meat is another's poison, as they say. Or live and let live. Who was it who said "I do not agree with what you are saying but I will defend, unto the death, your right to say it." Someone will remember who said it, I am getting old and am forgetting more that I have learnt, it seems.


----------



## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Yes, power to the people. Please tell me specifically what Obama has done to destroy the country.


Yes, I would also like to know the answer to this question, although if I read further I will find that many people will be quick to englighten me. From an outsider, it appears that many Americans do not like him because of the colour of his skin. I think he is a great guy who has the working man's interests at heart. The rich can take care of themselves, the poor do not have the means to do so.


----------



## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

IngriedTo grammaollie:
Thank you for giving me a reason to speak to you. I support what LillyK is saying and I am well educated said:


> I am with this lady. I am standing with you Ingried. We may have different opinions on many subjects, but we are entitled to have different opinions. But in this case I am 100% with you, give us facts and honest information.


----------



## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

Ingried said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > One of the reasons for the Obama hatred in this country is race, plain and simple. They can't stand the thought that there's an African American sitting in the White House.
> ...


Excuse my ignorance, but what is GOP, please?

I just had a dream/nightmare, the next President of USA was, wait for it, a black lesbian who is also a sworn athiest. There, you have the three evils in one person, athiest, lesbian and black.

Cat among the pigeons, now??? :? ;-)


----------



## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenix - I am mainly interested in current politics and how it affects us. I don't want to delve into anyone else's religion. If you have another topic of importance to you please share it.
> ...


This may be a knitting website, but this forum is not. It is general chit chat, non knitting. If you do not like it, ignore it, just read the main thread, that is where knitting and crochetting is discussed. We really do not need the permission of the administrator in order to chat with others.

You do not like the Progressive Party, OK, but others disagree with you. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, not just people who vote for the same party as you vote for.

My opinion, this is not an extreme discourse, it just voices another opinion to yours. We do not spend all our time knitting, some ofus are also active in other areas of activities.

Me, I am a proud, fully paid up and card carrying member of the Australian Labor Party and attend branch meetings. But I also know that there are members who are paid up members of the Liberal Party, National Party, Green Party or support an Independent member of Parliament and I respect their views and their right to hold those views.

I have also knitted a Haapsula shawl.

Question???? Are there only the two parties in the American Parliament, the Republicans and the Democrats?????

2nd Question????? Do you have any independent members of Parliament, as we do? If not, why not????


----------



## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

LillyK said:


> So sorry. I think MN is the center of the Universe, yah sure!


Sorry, dumb me again, but what is MN, please?


----------



## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

I am here but dead tired.
Topic for tomorrow?
How can we get People to vote? quote said:


> You could do what we do in Australia. Make voting compulsory and fine the people who do not vote without having a valid excuse.
> 
> I think if people do not vote in an election they really should not whine if their chosen political party does not win the election.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Martha French said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > So sorry. I think MN is the center of the Universe, yah sure!
> ...


MN is the abbreviation for Minnesota.

GOP stands for Grand Old Party, the party of the Republicans.


----------



## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Martha French said:
> 
> 
> > LillyK said:
> ...


Thank you for the information. My mind churned out many suggestions, but none of them were correct. Thanks.


----------



## ewe who (Jun 9, 2012)

I am sorry if I hurt anyones feelings. But I think what is happening here is why Administer ask that politic's and religion not be a subject here. 
This has become a site of name calling I am right and you are wrong. There are many places on the internet to discuss these issues. I am not saying all do not have a right to voice their opinions.This site was not started to be a place to voice such things. We all have rights. But lets go with what the Admin. has ask. If you don't see what has already happening here I am sorry. This is just crazy even to start such a chat. It is a site for knitters to discuss things of that nature. Lets stop this it is getting to be wrong for all of you and I for one can see where it has led too. Close it down and go to a site that is for this kind of discussion.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I guess I don't understand why we can't discuss topics other than knitting. I thought this area was reserved for non-knitting topics.


----------



## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

ewe who said:


> I am sorry if I hurt anyones feelings. But I think what is happening here is why Administer ask that politic's and religion not be a subject here.
> This has become a site of name calling I am right and you are wrong. There are many places on the internet to discuss these issues. I am not saying all do not have a right to voice their opinions.This site was not started to be a place to voice such things. We all have rights. But lets go with what the Admin. has ask. If you don't see what has already happening here I am sorry. This is just crazy even to start such a chat. It is a site for knitters to discuss things of that nature. Lets stop this it is getting to be wrong for all of you and I for one can see where it has led too. Close it down and go to a site that is for this kind of discussion.


 I agree with this. I said at the beginning of this thread that I thought it wasn't appropriate even though it's in General Chit-Chat. I don't think General Chit-Chat is meant to include such controversial and divisive threads. I think the Progressive Chat Cafe is a great idea and that LillyK should start a blog elsewhere and start by inviting any interested KPers to follow it. I've requested that Admin close this thread down, not because I don't know we all have the right to free speech, but for the problems mentioned above. I know I said I wouldn't touch this thread with a ten foot pole but have been following it to see if my opinion would be proved, and it has been.


----------



## ewe who (Jun 9, 2012)

alcameron said:


> I guess I don't understand why we can't discuss topics other than knitting. I thought this area was reserved for non-knitting topics.


Yes it is but Admin ask us not to discuss Politic's for the reason seen so far. It is not a site to say you are right and I am wrong.
It was not meant for a place to attack others for what they beleive. It has already gone that way, as far as I can see. If you have seen on this chat site it does discuss other things then knitting. Like I have stated there are other site on the internet where you can state your politic and religious beliefs. I do not like to see what is happening to a good bunch of ladies getting upset because others do not beleive the way that they do.


----------



## ewe who (Jun 9, 2012)

ewe who said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > I guess I don't understand why we can't discuss topics other than knitting. I thought this area was reserved for non-knitting topics.
> ...


----------



## btibbs70 (Mar 23, 2011)

Once a topic has had a response, the option is Unwatch. My response was only if someone wanted to monitor replies to a post without joining the discussion.


Ingried said:


> btibbs70 said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenix said:
> ...


----------



## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

I have stated my opinion & have been called _Socialist_ & given the title _Karl Marx_. Not upset nor offended. I believe what I believe.
I was proud the day Barack Obama was elected; never thought a non-white or female candidate would become president in my lifetime. Even though I disagree w/some of his decisions, still support him.
I am not here to pick a fight, just hopefully to make people think about what is @ stake in our country; to look @ their priorities & see past the rhetoric.
I don't understand why some of you who choose not to take part in this discussion -absolutely your right- are so bent on shutting it down. I don't read every topic, but do not think they don't belong because I'm not interested in the subject matter.
Respectfully,
kat


----------



## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

Thanks, LillyK, for starting this thread. I, for one, appreciate a spirited conversation to go with my knitting  I also enjoy hearing opposing viewpoints when they're presented in a rational (not emotional) way and when they're supported by facts. If we only engage with like-minded people, we fail to learn anything new, and the breadth of our understanding remains narrow.

I'm curious about where people get their news and information. Personally, I read DailyKos everyday, also visit HuffingtonPost, and I watch Rachel Maddow when I can. I hear Chris Hayes has a program on the weekends that's gotten very good feedback, but I haven't seen it yet. I also like my politics with a healthy dose of laughter, and for that I go to Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert. So what are your favorite sources?


----------



## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

ewe who said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > I guess I don't understand why we can't discuss topics other than knitting. I thought this area was reserved for non-knitting topics.
> ...


I went to the forum rules, and I did not see anything that said politics and religion was forbidden. If I missed it, could you copy and paste it in the comments? I did see that we are instructed to be respectful. If people are offended by political discussions in general, they don't have to engage.


----------



## ewe who (Jun 9, 2012)

Sherbearkub said:


> ewe who said:
> 
> 
> > alcameron said:
> ...


I went and looked in help form but could not find it, I do know I read it once before. i will conitue to look for it or ask admin if I have gotten it wrong. If I have I am sorry.

I do think you have ever right to your opinion but hate to see where this is going. Right or wrong, it became yesterday a I am right and you are wrong, I still feel that a lot of good people are getting off what started as a subject to something it was not meant to be...


----------



## Betty White (Feb 14, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Anyone who would like to discuss, share and learn from one another please join me on this thread. This is a pivitol year in the U.S. as we all know. I have spoken to some of you out hear already but some of the threads got pretty long and hard to follow so we can start fresh here. Hopefully some new and old friends will join in. I'm off to bed so I'll check back in the morning and see if anyone is out here. Good night!


I am open to discuss anything pertaining to knitting and crocheting. That is the title of the forum. I just hope it stays that way.
Betty


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

There are no longer rules on KP restricting political discussion. I posed the question to the site administrator.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Betty White said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone who would like to discuss, share and learn from one another please join me on this thread. This is a pivitol year in the U.S. as we all know. I have spoken to some of you out hear already but some of the threads got pretty long and hard to follow so we can start fresh here. Hopefully some new and old friends will join in. I'm off to bed so I'll check back in the morning and see if anyone is out here. Good night!
> ...


Betty the section Chit-Chat is for any topic we would like to discuss. If you don't want to stay on this thread you don't have to. Just check Unwatch on this topic and it won't show up for you anymore. Pick the threads that interest you and follow those. We all have needlework in common but we are not one dimensional people and this is just something else we have in common and we want to talk about. I personally follow several topics and others have no interest for me so I don't follow them. It's like dining out, order what you like and leave the rest behind.


----------



## ewe who (Jun 9, 2012)

alcameron said:


> There are no longer rules on KP restricting political discussion. I posed the question to the site administrator.


Thank you that I did know at one time it was. Forgive me, iI will leave you to have your chat. But please be nice to each other. You are a nice group of ladies. Just stay friends. :thumbup:


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

ctknoll25 said:


> Topic for tomorrow? How about responding to the statement by a KPer today that "Obama has done more to destroy this country than any other president of the US"? Nothing is added to back this opinion. I would say he's been very successful considering the incredible maneuvers to derail his efforts. Our economy is growing, albeit not as rapidly as we'd like. Remember that we were losing 750,000 jobs a month on the day Obama took office! Now we are adding jobs. Right now there's a bipartisan transportation bill that the GOP House Leader refuses to let be put to a vote. Not only would this add thousands of good jobs but would also make our falling-apart roads and bridges safer. Okay, your turn....


You are so right and you are backing what you say with facts. The critics here have only opinions and if they would like to engage in our conversations I would encourage them to back up what they say with facts. We all have opinions but to have an intelligent exchange we need to have facts. It's the truth that sets us free and that will take us in the right direction.


----------



## riggy (Apr 9, 2012)

Chezl said:


> craftylady49 said:
> 
> 
> > This sounds like a good way to get a bunch of people to disagree with each other and end up getting into nasty fights that have nothing to do with knitting or crocheting. Maybe you could start a blog somewhere else. I wouldn't touch this proposed thread with a ten foot pole. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
> ...


Can't see anything wrong with the idea. I'd be happy to join in


----------



## riggy (Apr 9, 2012)

Martha French said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > alcameron said:
> ...


Could only happen in America or could it omg :-o


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

ewe who said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > There are no longer rules on KP restricting political discussion. I posed the question to the site administrator.
> ...


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Martha French said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Welcome to all of you who have visited. We came together because of our handcrafts and I hope this will be a place where we come out here to share ideas, discuss the political topics of the day and learn from each other and offer encouragement to one another. I would also hope when we are giving an opinion we will let each other know it is just that, our opinion. When we state facts let's make sure they are facts and we can back them up. We may agree or disagree on our opinions but facts are facts. My opinion is that it is crucial that all Progressives vote this year if you are unable to do anything else. I see that Alcameron is concered about this too. Politicians all want your vote. I would ask that you educate yourself about your local, state and federal politicians so you give your vote to the people who have your best interests at heart. It is also my opinion that President Obama has been trying to move the country in the right direction and deserves another term to keep pushing us forward and he will get my vote. I don't think Mitt Romney can even begin to comprehend what my life or the rest of the 99% is like. Worst of all I don't believe he cares. I believe he will only look out for the needs of the 1%. So ladies please share what's on your mind and don't be afraid of being to long winded. Sometimes we have alot to say and it takes a while to get it all out there. I would also hope that if people make remarks out here that are way off topic we just ignore them and not dignify them with our comments. I think that baiting people has become a much used tool of the right and we don't need to go down to that level. When I was a little kid I learned that if you ignored the bully she would get tired and go away. See you later. Power to the People! :wink:
> ...


Sorry to hear you were bullied as a child. It's a terrible thing. I went through that too. Bullies want attention and control. I took some punches as a child and I must admit a good punch in return was sometimes the only option. It gets the bullies attention that you aren't going to put up with their cruelty anymore. Sometimes your friends may even have to come to your aid. My worst bullying came from a boy and when I hit him square in the nose he ran home to his mother. After that day he still tried to bait me but I just gave him what I called the "evil eye", kind of a crazy look that I guess scared him and he left me alone. Same is true with larger groups of people and countries. Diplomacy first and violence only as a last resort. Thanks for sharing the info on politics in your country.


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## Betty White (Feb 14, 2011)

ewe who said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > There are no longer rules on KP restricting political discussion. I posed the question to the site administrator.
> ...


I'm with you. I will refrain from opening any chit chat that appears to be political....I get enought of that from the TV and the newspaper. My opinions matter to me and I plan to keep them that way. I also consider myself educated and have a Master's Degree from the University of North Carolina. I don't need to have others tell me my opinions are wrong and need to be changed. I love Knitting Paradise and plan to keep it that way for myself. If political discussions are now permitted, so be it. Not everybody needs to chime in...certainly not me. I joined for the comradeship of other knitters.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> ewe who said:
> 
> 
> > I am sorry if I hurt anyones feelings. But I think what is happening here is why Administer ask that politic's and religion not be a subject here.
> ...


Ladies please read the US Constitution, first amendment, which gives us all freedom of speech. You have no right to tell anyone else what they can discuss and I would never tell you what you can talk about. The admin on this sight also knows what the constitution says. If you don't like this thread then don't follow it. No one can force you to do so. I find threads here that do not interest me but because we have freedom of speech protected by our Constitution I respect others' rights to say what they wish. It works just like the TV. If you don't like what's on turn to another channel or turn it off. Thank you.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Sherbearkub said:


> Thanks, LillyK, for starting this thread. I, for one, appreciate a spirited conversation to go with my knitting  I also enjoy hearing opposing viewpoints when they're presented in a rational (not emotional) way and when they're supported by facts. If we only engage with like-minded people, we fail to learn anything new, and the breadth of our understanding remains narrow.
> 
> I'm curious about where people get their news and information. Personally, I read DailyKos everyday, also visit HuffingtonPost, and I watch Rachel Maddow when I can. I hear Chris Hayes has a program on the weekends that's gotten very good feedback, but I haven't seen it yet. I also like my politics with a healthy dose of laughter, and for that I go to Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert. So what are your favorite sources?


Hello and welcome - I follow several of the shows you mention and read papers you mentioned. I do like Chris Hayes show and would recommend it. Stephen Colbert is my favorite for unwinding and having a good laugh. I also follow the BBC on line, NPR and PBS. Fareed Zakakaris gives me a different perspective too. I also watch what Rupert Murdoch is up to on Fox. I wonder how many Fox faithfuls know where Rupert is from and all the trouble he is in? I do like the Nation, Mother Jones and The New Yorker too. I feel the major networks all have their own political agendas. I liked it better when they saved the editorial remarks for the end of the show and made an attempt to just give you the facts in reporting the news.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

I am going off but will probably pop on line a little later. What did you think of Ingried's idea about putting out flowers as a way to get people to vote? I think it's a great idea. Whatever can serve as a reminder. Somehow we need to be able to get back to civil conversations with each other. I do remember being able to discuss issues with people in the office and in other public places that didn't agree with me and at the end of the talking we were all still friendly. No ill will. How do we get that back. By setting that example in how we interact with others? We sure don't want to carry on like our politicians. Keep the faith ladies. Fired up, ready to go! :thumbup:


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## stargazer21 (Apr 15, 2012)

I'm new to knitting, this website, and this particular thread. (This is my first post, hope it shows up as it should.)For what it's worth,I think it's great to see a progressive political thread - those who want to participate can, those who don't simply don't need to follow the conversation. Thanks, LillyK, for speaking up.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Welcome Stargazer - Don't hesitate to jump into the conversation when the spirit moves you. You can get your knitting fix out here and speak with other progessives all in one spot.


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## btibbs70 (Mar 23, 2011)

Change of topics:Remember equal rights for women!
While DH was hanging out the laundry, I was on the roof trimming branches and cleaning out the gutters.
Additionally, will there _ever_ be equal pay for equal jobs? Seems as though progress has been a bit slow.


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## Maggie2012 (May 14, 2012)

this is for "nice" chit-chat...start your own "space"


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## Maggie2012 (May 14, 2012)

this is for "nice" chit-chat...start your own "space"


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## stargazer21 (Apr 15, 2012)

Truthfully, I doubt it - the double standard will never die. Men will always live under one set of societal rules, women another. Not good, but I guess that's life. (Replying to post about equal pay above.)


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## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

Maggie2012 said:


> this is for "nice" chit-chat...start your own "space"


This space is titled Progressives' Chat Cafe. Did you wander in accidentally? You can avoid that in the future by clicking "unwatch." By the way, nice is a matter of opinion. The not very nice comments on this thread, in my opinion, seem to have been made by those who disagree with the progressives who do belong here.


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## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

stargazer21 said:


> Truthfully, I doubt it - the double standard will never die. Men will always live under one set of societal rules, women another. Not good, but I guess that's life. (Replying to post about equal pay above.)


As far as I know, Australia, New Zealand and Great Britain all have equal pay for equal work


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## stargazer21 (Apr 15, 2012)

tryalot said:


> stargazer21 said:
> 
> 
> > Truthfully, I doubt it - the double standard will never die. Men will always live under one set of societal rules, women another. Not good, but I guess that's life. (Replying to post about equal pay above.)
> ...


Good to hear things are as they should be somewhere . . . :thumbup:


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

We can't even get the Fairness Pay Act passed by the senate in the US. It was blocked by the republicans. In my opinion, the republicans are a regressive lot. They want to take us back to the good ol' days.


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## stargazer21 (Apr 15, 2012)

alcameron said:


> We can't even get the Fairness Pay Act passed by the senate in the US. It was blocked by the republicans. In my opinion, the republicans are a regressive lot. They want to take us back to the good ol' days.


Ah, yes, the good ol' days when things were bad . . .


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## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

katrinka said:


> I have stated my opinion & have been called _Socialist_ & given the title _Karl Marx_. Not upset nor offended. I believe what I believe.
> I was proud the day Barack Obama was elected; never thought a non-white or female candidate would become president in my lifetime. Even though I disagree w/some of his decisions, still support him.
> I am not here to pick a fight, just hopefully to make people think about what is @ stake in our country; to look @ their priorities & see past the rhetoric.
> I don't understand why some of you who choose not to take part in this discussion -absolutely your right- are so bent on shutting it down. I don't read every topic, but do not think they don't belong because I'm not interested in the subject matter.
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

Sherbearkub said:


> Thanks, LillyK, for starting this thread. I, for one, appreciate a spirited conversation to go with my knitting  I also enjoy hearing opposing viewpoints when they're presented in a rational (not emotional) way and when they're supported by facts. If we only engage with like-minded people, we fail to learn anything new, and the breadth of our understanding remains narrow.
> 
> I'm curious about where people get their news and information. Personally, I read DailyKos everyday, also visit HuffingtonPost, and I watch Rachel Maddow when I can. I hear Chris Hayes has a program on the weekends that's gotten very good feedback, but I haven't seen it yet. I also like my politics with a healthy dose of laughter, and for that I go to Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert. So what are your favorite sources?


Australian Broadcasting Commission TV and Radio News - worldwide and Australian and local news coverate. I tape the 7.00 p m news every night. The TV channel also includes such programmes as 4 Corners, 7.30 report, Lateline, Foreign Correspondent and Q & A.

SBS TV News - worldwide and Australian news coverage, which include Dateline and Insight.

News updates on the internet from 'In My Community' - local, Australian and World news coverage.

The West Australian newspaper, which is the daily newspaper in Western Australia

Local nespapers - ie Hills Gazette, Echo, Midland Reporter - these newspapers cover my local area and have news items that are relevant to the local area.


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## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

stargazer21 said:


> tryalot said:
> 
> 
> > stargazer21 said:
> ...


We women in New Zealand and Australia are a pretty powerful force. We demand and scream for our rights. Remember what country gave women the right to vote first.


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## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

ctknoll25 said:


> Maggie2012 said:
> 
> 
> > this is for "nice" chit-chat...start your own "space"
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: 
I do not like the word 'nice'. I also agree, if you do not like it here why are you here? Is there a horrible, big, ugly, hairy ogre standing over these people, threatening to disembowel them if they do not read every single post and then complain that the posts upset their sensitivities? :? :? :?:


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## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

Maggie2012 said:


> this is for "nice" chit-chat...start your own "space"


If you do not like it, why are you reading it? Just go to another site. No one is forcing you out of your comfort zone. But there is a big wide world out there and people with opinions that are different to your do exist in that world. It is 'nice' - a horrible word, but you believe differently. That is OK, you can have your opinion and others can have theirs. Perhaps these 'others' think that the position you wish for - 'nice' chit chat only about purl and plain and slippped stitches - is boring. As so many have said, if you do not like it here, why are you still reading the posts. No one is forcing you to read them.


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## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

btibbs70 said:


> Change of topics:Remember equal rights for women!
> While DH was hanging out the laundry, I was on the roof trimming branches and cleaning out the gutters.
> Additionally, will there _ever_ be equal pay for equal jobs? Seems as though progress has been a bit slow.


You sound like my daughter. She gets up on the roof and climbs ladders and does the hard manual labour. Her husband does the laundry and the ironing and the vacuuming. She has also taught her two boys to do the same. No such thing as 'womens work' or 'mens jobs'. Me, I hate heights, always have. I would not climb up the slide until I was nearly 12 years old. Mind you, the steel slides we had then were nearly 7 ft tall and hot as hell in summer. I just paid a little man $140 to cleanthe gutters. He is coming back in 6 months time to repeat the job. We have a lot of leaves. Did a great job. When he saw me with a broom he told me to leave it because he had a leaf blower and would blow the leaves off the drive and paths into the gardens. A very enterprising young man about 20 years old. He did not have a job so he started his own. He said he was so busy he was thinking of hiring an assistant.


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## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

Sherbearkub said:


> ewe who said:
> 
> 
> > alcameron said:
> ...


I did the same thing. I think it used to be there, but the rules have been amended. I note that someone said they asked the Admin. to close the site down, but it is still open so it cannot be against the rules to have a voice here. But I think a lot of people do not get "If people are offended by political discussions in general, they don't have to engage".


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## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

Betty White said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone who would like to discuss, share and learn from one another please join me on this thread. This is a pivitol year in the U.S. as we all know. I have spoken to some of you out hear already but some of the threads got pretty long and hard to follow so we can start fresh here. Hopefully some new and old friends will join in. I'm off to bed so I'll check back in the morning and see if anyone is out here. Good night!
> ...


Betty, I just read it and it said 'general chit chat - non knitting. The topic headed 'main' is for discussons pertaining to knitting and crochet. So if you want it to stay on just knitting and crochet, you should just read the forum site labelled 'main' and stay away from the 'general chit chat - non knitting' forum.


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## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

alcameron said:


> There are no longer rules on KP restricting political discussion. I posed the question to the site administrator.


Thanks for the information.


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## Betty White (Feb 14, 2011)

I enjoy reading the non-knitting, general chit chat and feel that I know many of those who submit ideas to it. However, I know I can still enjoy all of those titles in that section as long as I can pick and choose the ones that interest me. That has always been a member's prerogative. So you can enjoy the freedom to write on any subject you choose in the Chat Cafe and we can all enjoy the freedom to choose the ones we will read.


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## Chezl (Mar 12, 2012)

tryalot said:


> stargazer21 said:
> 
> 
> > Truthfully, I doubt it - the double standard will never die. Men will always live under one set of societal rules, women another. Not good, but I guess that's life. (Replying to post about equal pay above.)
> ...


Australia does not have equal pay. This topic was on a current affairs show just recently. Women still receive less pay than men.


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## Chezl (Mar 12, 2012)

I am still reading all posts because so far people are arguing about their right to political posts. There is not much proper debate going on. All this is amusing me but when it does get really political, I will be unwatching. I hope everyone who wants to stay will enjoy it and everyone else just stop watching and butt out.


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

I like the roads I drive on
Don't want to blaze a trail
without traffic signs & lights
Total chaos would prevail;

Going out looking for water
That's clean enough to drink
Burning trash & emptying sewage
Would make good health extinct.

If my house catches fire
Or a friend gets beat or sick
I want someone to answer 911
And send some help real quick;

Education could probably be better
But learning gives us a chance
To think & act for ourselves
The alternative is ignorance;

I don't want to deliver mail
Take it myself on a plane
Especially without airport control
Flying would be insane;

The costs of doing all these things
Individually & alone
Cannot even be measured
It's ridiculous beyond unknown!

I happen to think its wonderful that
There are services governments provide
In pooling resources for everybody
So no one can be denied;

Not everything should be for profit 
Like what if you need help someday
And instead of asking "What's your emergency?"
The first question is "How will you pay?"

kat


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

stargazer21 said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > We can't even get the Fairness Pay Act passed by the senate in the US. It was blocked by the republicans. In my opinion, the republicans are a regressive lot. They want to take us back to the good ol' days.
> ...


Yes, when women were barefoot and pregnant, kept a clean house and made her man happy!  Not anymore. Equal pay for equal work, got to keep working on that. I know in MN we have more and more young women joining the trade Unions and guess what? Those terrible Unions make employers pay those women the same pay grade that the men get doing the same job! That's progress, small step but at least in the right direction.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

katrinka said:


> I like the roads I drive on
> Don't want to blaze a trail
> without traffic signs & lights
> Total chaos would prevail;
> ...


I so agree. I also don't mind paying taxes for the upkeep of the infrastructure and all the necessary things a country provides to it's citizens. Everyone should contribute their fair share and yes some people do need a leg up and I am my brother's keeper. Enough of I got mine and you get your own. Pure selfishness and greed. This attitude of so many in the U.S. has got to change.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Maggie2012 said:


> this is for "nice" chit-chat...start your own "space"


This is nice chit-chat Maggie and we have started our own space and this is it. Thanks for your comments twice and have a nice day on the KP blog.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

ctknoll25 said:


> Maggie2012 said:
> 
> 
> > this is for "nice" chit-chat...start your own "space"
> ...


Obviously you know exactly where you are ct and welcome.


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## Betty White (Feb 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> One of the reasons for the Obama hatred in this country is race, plain and simple. They can't stand the thought that there's an African American sitting in the White House.
> 
> Geez, ladies, I'm trying knit through all of this!
> And now I need a dinner break.


Guess I will change my mind about reading & responding to this chat.
Your reasoning that people can't stand that there is an African American sitting in the White House is wrong. Race has nothing to do with it. However, this billboard posted on Highway 61 in Hutchinson KS gives other reasons--none because of color:

Change--so now we know!
MORE Debt
MoreTaxes
More Welfare
More Regulation
More Government
More Wasteful Spending
More Corruption

Thanks Mr. President


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Betty White said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > One of the reasons for the Obama hatred in this country is race, plain and simple. They can't stand the thought that there's an African American sitting in the White House.
> ...


Amen! Black and whites voted him in so it has nothing to do with color.


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

Please tell us who paid for that billboard & the source of their 'facts.' Are you sure it wasn't put there when GW was president? 
kat


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## wjfaris (Oct 29, 2011)

Why would you want to start that on this site? Really.....


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## btibbs70 (Mar 23, 2011)

Does anyone remember the uproar of JFK becoming presidetn b/c he was Catholic? Seems people will verbally attack anyone who is outside the status quo.


Betty White said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > One of the reasons for the Obama hatred in this country is race, plain and simple. They can't stand the thought that there's an African American sitting in the White House.
> ...


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

Since the Supreme Court ruling on _Citizens United_, we must be much more vigilant to investigate the source & 'fact check' every political statement that will inundate us for the next four plus months.
I believe every voter's responsibility is to make an educated decision.
Just because people have the money does not mean they're compelled to tell the truth; actually, I believe the more money they spend, the more they are trying to push their own agenda. 
Find out who belongs to these PACs, what they represent, & if you agree w/their vision of America, go for it.
kat


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## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

A billboard as an information source? Whose money paid for it? Did you fact-check these statements? Much of our debt came from two unfunded wars, Medicare Part D noncompete deals made with the pharmaceutical industry, and the disastrous meltdown of our economy -- all stemming from 2008 and earlier. Taxes are actually lower. Check it out. Welfare costs rise in a recession, and this is the worst since the Great Depression. More regulation? I wish!! We need more oversight, not less.... banks are ripping us off as they get richer and sit on bailout money that could be invested in creating jobs, the oil industry is polluting our drinking water, harming agriculture and wildlife, causing illnesses. There is not more government. The unemployment rate would be 1% or so less if government employment now was the same as during the Bush administration. What wasteful spending? Well, one I can think of is spending on Afghanistan and Iraq. Who got us into that? And yes, there is some corruption, but not necessarily more of it. Here, again, is where there needs to be more regulation. Both money and power can corrupt and neither political party is immune. 

As to racism, true that both blacks and whites voted Obama in. However, the shocking disrespect shown Obama is unprecedented - from the floors of Congress to last week's press conference. There are some who cannot stand the idea of black president. They didn't vote for him and never expected it to happen. Sadly, racism is part of the picture.. but that's not to imply that anyone opposed to Obama is a racist.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Chezl said:


> I am still reading all posts because so far people are arguing about their right to political posts. There is not much proper debate going on. All this is amusing me but when it does get really political, I will be unwatching. I hope everyone who wants to stay will enjoy it and everyone else just stop watching and butt out.


Chezl - Speaking for myself, I am glad you are enjoying this thread. This is not a proper debate that one would engage in in school or parliment or a legislative body. We are people with mutual respect for each other trying to learn from each other and share our ideas. Please feel free to unwatch at any time.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Betty White said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone who would like to discuss, share and learn from one another please join me on this thread. This is a pivitol year in the U.S. as we all know. I have spoken to some of you out hear already but some of the threads got pretty long and hard to follow so we can start fresh here. Hopefully some new and old friends will join in. I'm off to bed so I'll check back in the morning and see if anyone is out here. Good night!
> ...


Sorry you stumbled on to this thread again, Betty. Remember all you have to do is check Unwatch and it won't happen again.


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## Betty White (Feb 14, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Betty White said:
> 
> 
> > LillyK said:
> ...


I didn't stumble on it, but made a conscious decision to check it out once in a while (I assume I still have that right). I really do understand how to check Unwatch.Betty


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

Betty White said:


> ...this billboard posted on Highway 61 in Hutchinson KS gives other reasons--none because of color:
> 
> Change--so now we know!
> MORE Debt
> ...


Dear Betty,
Next time you pass this *political advertisement *(?!), can you tell us who paid for it? Are these the 'facts' upon which you'll decide how to vote? I'm not trying to be mean, but _anyone who can afford it_ can put words on a billboard. 
If someone placed *"Betty White's a pooh-pooh head"* on a sign does that make it true? Honestly, who is going to admit (s)he's a racist, besides skinheads & scapegoat groups who hate/blame everyone who is not white, male & the 'right brand' of Christian? 
I'd love to see what the people who put this up _really_ think of President Obama -_NOT_! I'm sure they're not racists, they just don't think a half-black man who wasn't born in the US & lies about going to Harvard should be in the White House. 
Besides the Republicans in Congress didn't let him do enough to have accomplished that much.
Respectfully,
kat

FYI: I don't think you're a 'pooh-pooh head'; just think you might want to look past an eyesore on a Kansas highway for truth.


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## Betty White (Feb 14, 2011)

You are getting a little mean-spirited in your second paragraph. The people who put this billboard up were exercising their right to free speech. Sorry if you are offended. The picture of the sign was sent to me by someone who votes as he pleases (as I will). 
Betty


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Betty White said:


> You are getting a little mean-spirited in your second paragraph. The people who put this billboard up were exercising their right to free speech. Sorry if you are offended. The picture of the sign was sent to me by someone who votes as he pleases (as I will).
> Betty


As a well educated woman, Betty, would you please tell me where you get your sources of information so you can make an intelligent decision on who would be best to run this country? Are you basing your vote on the photo your friend sent you of a road sign? We are here to learn and share and that is what we do here. If you would like to engage in a respectful manner than do so. We don't want to engage with anyone in an uninformed conversation. Put your facts that back up your opinion out here and we would be happy to listen. I believe it's masochistic for you to keep coming out here, kind of like slapping yourself in the face and wondering why it won't stop. Only you can stop it. You have no control over this thread, we made up gound rules that we abide by. Thank you.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Betty White said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > One of the reasons for the Obama hatred in this country is race, plain and simple. They can't stand the thought that there's an African American sitting in the White House.
> ...


it is my opinion that the overt hatred directed towards President Obama by republican leaders in both the House and Senate is due to racism. He hadn't done anything but assume the office when it started, so he didn't have a chance to give us "more debt, more regulation, more taxes, more government," and more everything else you said. The republican leaders from the get-go slammed him every time they opened their mouths. Remember Mitch McConnell proudly standing before the TV cameras and vowing that the primary goal of the republicans was to make Obama a one-term president? Please explain to me what that was all about. And the republicans stuck to their guns. They wouldn't pass any meaningful lesgislation because that wasn't their goal. They didn't want anything good to happen during his administration. What a wonderful way to serve the people of this country!
So all the "more" statements you listed all came about through republican efforts because Congress (and Obama) had no chance to do anything. They sat on their derrières for 4 years and said "no, no, no."


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

katrinka said:


> I like the roads I drive on
> Don't want to blaze a trail
> without traffic signs & lights
> Total chaos would prevail;
> ...


I love this and think it was cleverly written. Thank you!


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

Dear Betty,
My second paragraph isn't 'mean.' It just illustrates the 'Free Speech' guaranteed in our Constitution. It is also meant to show how untruthful & personal people can get _w/out any facts_. 
A friend sent you _a picture of this_? Can you post it so I can see it? Please?
In return -if I am able to read it- I'll share the _facts_ about the group who wrote & paid for it.
kat
BTW I am not offended by the lies on the eyesore, just by the fact someone would accept it as truth & ACT ON IT w/out further investigation.


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

Dear alcameron,
Thanx for your nice words. You're welcome.
kat


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Betty White said:
> 
> 
> > alcameron said:
> ...


Ladies - You are not going to change any minds our here with your ramblings. You don't ever persuade others to your way of thinking that way. We are not trying to persuade you of anything either so I don't know why you just don't go elsewhere and start your own thread and leave us alone. You are welcome back if you truly have anything of substance to offer. Thank you


----------



## Betty White (Feb 14, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Chezl said:
> 
> 
> > I am still reading all posts because so far people are arguing about their right to political posts. There is not much proper debate going on. All this is amusing me but when it does get really political, I will be unwatching. I hope everyone who wants to stay will enjoy it and everyone else just stop watching and butt out.
> ...


I surely don't agree that writers on this site have mutual respect for each other and want to share ideas. So I will take your advice and unwatch this Chat Cafe and go to more pleasant voices (and friendlier ones) on KP. (No need to respond to this, as I will not be reading any more of this "dialogue").
Betty


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Ladies - I'm putting out a challenge for all of us to come up with one small thing we can each do this week to move our agenda forward. I know all of you who are out here can come up with something. It should just be something you know you personally could do this week. Let's sleep on it and see what we come up with on Monday. Oh a personal request, some have shared good sources of information to help us keep informed. I wanted to suggest Senator Bernie Saunders website. He is an amzing Independent, really up on everything. If anyone else has other things they read, view, listen to please share that. Hope to see you all tomorrow!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I get Bernie's newsletter, too. Read Daily Kos, watch Rachel. I used to listen to Thom Hartman all the time, but the station he was on doesn't carry him anymore. Nation of Change is another source. I like Ed Schultz, too, but I didn't like him for awhile because he had some rather nasty words for Hillary.
I tune in to some of the regular news sources listed previously. There's a lawyer named Norman Goldman who's also interesting and sometimes pretty funny. He has a website, but I haven't checked it out.


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## tired n' cranky (Aug 2, 2011)

Ingried, if you are still out there, I am a bleeding heart liberal in the redist state in the union. Tough place when you are as thin skinned as I sometimes am. Pointing out that you are multi degreed makes YOU sound like an elitist. Using phrases like "straight answer", "no mood for a fight" and words like "spew" and "factual", well some of us might say that you are ARE itchin' for a fight!

I am hoping that one day, in my lifetime, men at my state capital find something other than the time of conception and abortion to talk about. My vagina and ovaries are none of their business! I am a liberal, female Jew in the state of Oklahoma. That, my friends makes some people very uncomfortable.


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## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

I get Bernie's newsletter, too. Have you signed in on his proposal to have Citizens United defeated with an amendment to the Constitution? You can do that on his website. I've learned so much from both Thom Hartmann and Norman Goldman. Both of them encourage their listeners to get involved at their local level. I have joined my local progressive group and will be working on plans to share information and get out the vote. Many of us are represented by elected officials who have pledged to obstruct Obama in every way. We need to work as hard on getting the House and Senate back, not just the presidency. I'd love to know what others are doing.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

tired n' cranky said:


> Ingried, if you are still out there, I am a bleeding heart liberal in the redist state in the union. Tough place when you are as thin skinned as I sometimes am. Pointing out that you are multi degreed makes YOU sound like an elitist. Using phrases like "straight answer", "no mood for a fight" and words like "spew" and "factual", well some of us might say that you are ARE itchin' for a fight!
> 
> I am hoping that one day, in my lifetime, men at my state capital find something other than the time of conception and abortion to talk about. My vagina and ovaries are none of their business! I am a liberal, female Jew in the state of Oklahoma. That, my friends makes some people very uncomfortable.


Hello and welcome to the Progressives' Chat Cafe. I hope you will continue visiting us. I too am a bleeding heart liberal from Minnesota. Our state is changing color as you are probably aware. We have had some wonderful people come out of this state, Humphrey, Wellstone, Franken. I'll let Ingried speak for herself as to her comments. My own feelings about Ingried are she is very passionate and she would never intentionally hurt anyone who is sincerely out here to learn and exchange ideas. My first impression is you seem to be that kind of woman. It seems as though the loyal opposition is pulling out it's old bag of tricks once again and going after women in several states. They have nothing of substance as far as I can see. Women legislators in Michigan were shouted down by their male counterparts who are trying to get through repressive legislation against women. Minnesota republicans are trying to pass an amendment to the state constitution defining marriage as between a man and a woman to prohibit same sex marriage arguing that it will destroy heterosexual marriage. I am a 61 year old straight woman who has been happily married to my husband Bob for over 25 years and I see absolutely no threat from gays and lesbians being married. I believe they should have the same rights that I do so I am working with the GLBT community to get people to vote No on this amendment. I also live on the edge of Michelle Bachman's district, land of Bizzaro, to steal from Seinfeld, and it's not a comfortable place to be. We have a school district in common where several students who identified as GLBT were being bullied and harrassed so badly they committed suicide this past school year. These children ranged in age from 12 to 18 years old. My husband and I were sickened as the districts stand is neutrality because several families believe homosexuality is a sin and that these children will go to hell. It took national attention to get them to modify the policy but it still has no real teeth in it to stop what is going on. Besides getting Obama reelected I will be helping Senator Amy Klobuchar's reelection and working to unseat, Erik Paulsen, from the U.S. house. Locally, we are lucky to have some decent people representing us so we will help them out too. 
I'm sure as the months go by we will see more emotions being expressed probably from all of us but I hope we will all feel free to tell our Progressive friends here "hey that hurt" and we would hopefully receive an apology. I personally have stepped on toes and had mine stepped on and in PM feelings have been soothed over. From time to time we will have visitors for whatever reason just don't want us out here talking. I try my best to ignore them so they don't tear this thread apart. If you must respond please try to do so respectfully and they will hopefully they will get bored with us.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

I am getting a clue that the group that started this thread are not even knitters or crochetors . You must be a group that as you say is pushing your own agenda. I have heard about this groups that push and bully their way into groups on the net. My prayers are with you because you are a sad lot. I am glad you did get it changed to talk about policics and religion. God Bless and have a great day because this is the day that the Lord hath made. I am going to rejoyce and be glad in it. God Bless our America!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I am getting a clue that the group that started this thread are not even knitters or crochetors . You must be a group that as you say is pushing your own agenda. I have heard about this groups that push and bully their way into groups on the net. My prayers are with you because you are a sad lot. I am glad you did get it changed to talk about policics and religion. God Bless and have a great day because this is the day that the Lord hath made. I am going to rejoyce and be glad in it. God Bless our America!


I picked my needles again about a year ago after a 15-year hiatus, so I'm a bit rusty, but going strong. 
I also happen to be a person who is concerned with what is happening in this country. The republicans of today are nothing like they were in the days that Eisenhower was president. Today, there are no moderate republicans, they're mostly right-wing conservatives who are making a mess with the economic system of the US. In case you haven't noticed, they've become the party of the wealthy and haven't done a thing for the lower and middle classes. In fact, they are promoting the disappearance of the middle class. My father used to say "the rich get richer" and it was never truer than today. The idiocy of allowing the rich to get by with paying a lower tax rate than someone earning $50,000/year is ridiculous. Yet, the republicans won't allow taxes to be raised on people earning scads of money----and at the same time screaming, "cut spending." Sometimes there is nothing left to cut, so the poor, disabled, unemployed people see their programs being cut while wealthy Americans haul in more than ever before. Then there are the tax loopholes to benefit the wealthy and giant corporations--they, who send jobs overseas while people in this country are out of work. It just makes no sense to me to support people in government who don't place the welfare of its people first. People in this country are suffering, thanks to the budget cuts insisted upon by the republican congress. Since you brought God into the picture, I ask you to pray for guidance in making decisions about the leadership in this country. Look closely at what is happening around you.


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

Dear CB,
You are mistaken about our identities. I have been a KP member since September & am involved in three swaps, including the _Quarterly International_, for which I assist YoMaMi. Please look @ my Topics, pictures & posts; I knit daily & support my fellow crafters, including you.
There is nothing you can disagree with insofar as politics are concerned that offends me, however to call me part of a 'sad lot' because I care about my country & want people to pay attention, is unkind & incorrect! How you vote isn't my concern; I just want you to make an informed decision. You have to admit, there's a lot of noise out there.
It saddens me that in this thread, the majority of negativity comes from 'non-progressives', whom either disapprove of the subject matter, or condemn us for stating our opinions. I'm sorry you stumbled upon Progressives' Chat Café & that it has forced you to react so unpleasantly. 
Ending your discussion w/invocations of G-d doesn't change its tone. So, please save your blessings for those who believe what is happening has anything to do w/Her.
When I pray, I refer to the _Five Books of Moses_ & supplemental readings. When it comes to America, the only _bible_ in play is our beautiful Constitution, & it gives you the same right to your opinions as it gives me to mine.
I would like to continue to rejoice in these days, but unfortunately think a free & fair United States is headed towards the history books. I so hope I am wrong!
Peace to you,
kat


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## Silverstreak (Oct 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I am getting a clue that the group that started this thread are not even knitters or crochetors . You must be a group that as you say is pushing your own agenda. I have heard about this groups that push and bully their way into groups on the net. My prayers are with you because you are a sad lot. I am glad you did get it changed to talk about policics and religion. God Bless and have a great day because this is the day that the Lord hath made. I am going to rejoyce and be glad in it. God Bless our America!


What is so sad about your statement is the ending - "God Bless Our America" - does that mean you pick and choose who is part of YOUR America? What I notice, sadly, is how exclusionary we have become. How sad that the people who speak loudest about the Land of The Free are the very people who would spend their last dollars to restrict freedom of others who don't think or act the way they think Americans should. In past years (and I grew up as a "colored" child in the Northeast in the 50's and 60's), we made strides to change the inequity in our society. That does not appear to be a priority anymore and that is even sadder. Thanks to policies created in the 80's we have become a land of haves and have nots, and the haves are exercising more and more control over the means of production. The have-nots may never have the opportunity to become the haves. Again, how sad.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Silverstreak said:


> Country Bumpkins said:
> 
> 
> > I am getting a clue that the group that started this thread are not even knitters or crochetors . You must be a group that as you say is pushing your own agenda. I have heard about this groups that push and bully their way into groups on the net. My prayers are with you because you are a sad lot. I am glad you did get it changed to talk about policics and religion. God Bless and have a great day because this is the day that the Lord hath made. I am going to rejoyce and be glad in it. God Bless our America!
> ...


 You misunderstood me when i said our America. I ment it as we are all Americans even if we have different views so it is our America.We have the right to believe different from each other and still all be Americans. That is what makes it so great. I am not a racist so color doesn't mean anything to me. We are all created in God's imagine as far as I see things. The Bible says there will always be the poor and if a man doesn't work he doesn't eat. My family has always worked for a living so we don't expect the goverment to pay our way. So far we have been Blessed with alot because we had no ones help but God.We have never been without no matter who our President is or was. We pay taxes like everyone that works . I still say God Bless our America and all of its people!


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## WandaPie (May 14, 2011)

We can join or not. This part of the site is labeled, "NON-knitting talk.
I'll stay away if my blood pressure goes up, but I'm curious to see what it's all about.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

tired n' cranky said:


> Ingried, if you are still out there, I am a bleeding heart liberal in the redist state in the union. Tough place when you are as thin skinned as I sometimes am. Pointing out that you are multi degreed makes YOU sound like an elitist. Using phrases like "straight answer", "no mood for a fight" and words like "spew" and "factual", well some of us might say that you are ARE itchin' for a fight!
> 
> I am hoping that one day, in my lifetime, men at my state capital find something other than the time of conception and abortion to talk about. My vagina and ovaries are none of their business! I am a liberal, female Jew in the state of Oklahoma. That, my friends makes some people very uncomfortable.


Oh, brother, you have all my sympathies! Don't know how you stand it! I'm sure if I lived in medieval times I would have been burned at the stake long ago. I am afraid if I lived in a Red State some equivalent method would be found to shut me down.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

This 'forum' is openly promoting extreme liberalism (Progressives) way left of the general populous. If you read closely you will see how they attempt to perseude you to vote their way. They have a picked a very large forum to send their message to and if you peak in once in awhile, you will they have been defeated.

People of average intelligence (us) can see what they are up to. 

Progressives, Green Party, extremism, google them yourselves.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

grammaollie said:


> It's openly promoting extreme liberalism (Progressives) way left of the general populous. If you read closely you will see how they attempt to perseude you to vote their way. They have a picked a very large forum to send their message to and if you peak in once in awhile, you will they have been defeated.
> 
> People of average intelligence (us) can see what they are up to.
> 
> Progressives, Green Party, extremism, google them yourselves.


It's interesting that for one whose beliefs are opposite to grammollie's, her words could be used verbatim by progressives about today's "conservatives."

(With apologies to the traditional meaning of conservative. I consider today's vocal Republicans to be the opposite of "progressive", e.g. "regressive" or "oppressive.")


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

grammaollie said:


> It's openly promoting extreme liberalism (Progressives) way left of the general populous. If you read closely you will see how they attempt to perseude you to vote their way. They have a picked a very large forum to send their message to and if you peak in once in awhile, you will they have been defeated.
> 
> People of average intelligence (us) can see what they are up to.
> 
> Progressives, Green Party, extremism, google them yourselves.


It's interesting that for one whose beliefs are opposite to grammollie's, her words could be used verbatim by progressives about today's "conservatives."

(With apologies to the traditional meaning of conservative. I consider today's vocal Republicans to be the opposite of "progressive", e.g. "regressive" or "oppressive.")


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> This 'forum' is openly promoting extreme liberalism (Progressives) way left of the general populous. If you read closely you will see how they attempt to perseude you to vote their way. They have a picked a very large forum to send their message to and if you peak in once in awhile, you will they have been defeated.
> 
> People of average intelligence (us) can see what they are up to.
> 
> Progressives, Green Party, extremism, google them yourselves.


Grammaollie, are you kidding? What do you think I'm up to?


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## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Silverstreak said:
> 
> 
> > Country Bumpkins said:
> ...


I've always wondered how people in the working class could justify voting Republican when Republican policies can be so harmful to them. Then, when having a rousing political discussion with a co-worker (we're still friends . . . ha ha), it occurred to me that they must have been born without the "There-But-For-the-Grace-of-God-Go-I" gene. I think Liberals know how precarious life can be. They can also appreciate the good luck they've had . . . to be born in an economically vibrant place to two parents who believed in education and who stayed employed, healthy, and alive until their kids were raised. Or maybe they had a mentor or another encouraging adult to open their minds to possibilities and say, "You can do it." Not having these things doesn't mean you can't rise above your circumstances, because you can. I'm just saying that it's interesting how conservatives think they did it all on their own. I also think one of the reasons Hollywood people tend to be Democrats is that they remember where they came from . . . they remember their humble beginnings. Humble. A good word.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

WandaPie said:


> We can join or not. This part of the site is labeled, "NON-knitting talk.
> I'll stay away if my blood pressure goes up, but I'm curious to see what it's all about.


Welcome Wanda - Our ground rules are very basic. If you wish to exchange ideas and opinions with us on this thread please feel free to do so. We ask that if you bring information here that is not your opinion then you be able to support your statements with facts. Pretty simple. We are Progressives and we are not trying to brain wash anyone just share ideas with each other as to how we can get the vote out this fall for President Obama and other Progressive candidates. We also are sharing news with each other from our respective parts of the country to keep up on what is going on in politics. There is a lot of money being spent on the other side so we have to work that much harder on the ground. We are also sharing good sources of information and if you have any sources you especially like please share them with us. It's my belief that most of us here are very concerned about the direction our country is headed and I count myself as a part of the 99%. I have nothing in common with Mitt Romney and I believe he only cares about his cronies, the 1 %. I have yet to see the man show any empathy for anyone. I also feel very sad that many of our fellow citizens seem to have once again been so easily duped into believing the Republicans care one bit for their future or the future of this country. Once they get their vote they will be kicked to the curb along with the rest of the 99%. I also don't believe all people with money are evil. I know some of them are very decent socially responsible people who love this country to and care about it's future. I sometimes feel I am on the Titanic but my hope is that if enough good people get together we can turn the tide. We must all stand together and in that lies our strength. We cannot forget the lessons of history and let our country fall into the abyss as other countries have done in the not to distant past where people stood by silently as their fellow citizens disappeared. I will never refer to the United States as the homeland. I think the term was carefully put back into use by the likes of Carl Rove. I am a senior citizen who will not live in fear in the country I love and I will die in the street defending my beliefs before I hide in my house. If we don't have our freedom what do we have? This is our country.


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

Equal pay for equal work, women's right to privacy, having the programs -Social Security & Medicare- we have paid into w/every paycheck for fifty years available when we retire, regulations prohibiting the pollution of air we all breathe & the poisoning of food we & our children eat & water we & our children drink, maintaining the natural beauty of our National Parks, paying less in taxes than people who make tens to thousands of times what we earn (& in many cases don't work), HAVING A WORKING CLASS EARNING A LIVING WAGE...now these are *extreme* ideas.
It's interesting how unless YOU ARE one who loses your job, home, healthcare _due to no fault of your own_, YOU don't have any empathy for someone who has. 
*I am proud to be on a different page than those of you who call me names.*
I hope I never feel such indifference towards, or worse, blame those less fortunate.
kat


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Sherbearkub said:


> Country Bumpkins said:
> 
> 
> > Silverstreak said:
> ...


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> grammaollie said:
> 
> 
> > It's openly promoting extreme liberalism (Progressives) way left of the general populous. If you read closely you will see how they attempt to perseude you to vote their way. They have a picked a very large forum to send their message to and if you peak in once in awhile, you will they have been defeated.
> ...


I so agree Mary Margaret - Welcome to the Cafe. Hope you will be a regular visitor.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Sherbearkub said:


> Country Bumpkins said:
> 
> 
> > Silverstreak said:
> ...


Hello Sherry - Glad to see you here and welcome Silverstreak. 
I would like to welcome you Country Bumpkins but I don't want you to think I am playing mind games with you. I have a question for you. If a woman with no family was hurt so badly in a car crash she could not take care of herself anymore. Who should care for her? I look forward to your reply. Thank you.


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## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

katrinka said:


> Equal pay for equal work, women's right to privacy, having the programs -Social Security & Medicare- we have paid into w/every paycheck for fifty years available when we retire, regulations prohibiting the pollution of air we all breathe & the poisoning of food we & our children eat & water we & our children drink, maintaining the natural beauty of our National Parks, paying less in taxes than people who make tens to thousands of times what we earn (& in many cases don't work), HAVING A WORKING CLASS EARNING A LIVING WAGE...now these are *extreme* ideas.
> It's interesting how unless YOU ARE one who loses your job, home, healthcare _due to no fault of your own_, YOU don't have any empathy for someone who has.
> *I am proud to be on a different page than those of you who call me names.*
> I hope I never feel such indifference, or worse blame towards those less fortunate.
> kat


A living wage . . . what a concept! Personally, I don't know any "poor" people who are lazy. But I do know plenty of people who work hard for a living and still struggle to get by. They're not "poor" in my eyes. They're rich in knowledge and talent and humor and grace. They're loving and generous. And I don't like hearing politicians, or anybody else for that matter, talk about "the poor" as if they knew what they were talking about. They don't have a clue.

I'm 61 years old, and I've worked since I was 11. Two years ago, I lost my job as a legal assistant when our firm did another round of cost cutting. Since then, I've scoured the job boards, and it's disheartening to find that (1) lots of places use temps so they don't have to offer benefits, and (2) lots of places are paying what I was making (in a rural area) in 1990. Well, prices for housing, food, and every other necessity have gone WAY UP since then, so it's no longer a "living wage." I remember when the financial crisis first hit, and we shook our heads and said, "At least I have a job." That's a good attitude to have, I thought, but be careful. They'll take advantage of your willingness to work for less and less just so you can keep it.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

I've always wondered how people in the working class could justify voting Republican when Republican policies can be so harmful to them. Then, when having a rousing political discussion with a co-worker (we're still friends . . . ha ha), it occurred to me that they must have been born without the "There-But-For-the-Grace-of-God-Go-I" gene. I think Liberals know how precarious life can be. They can also appreciate the good luck they've had . . . to be born in an economically vibrant place to two parents who believed in education and who stayed employed, healthy, and alive until their kids were raised. Or maybe they had a mentor or another encouraging adult to open their minds to possibilities and say, "You can do it." Not having these things doesn't mean you can't rise above your circumstances, because you can. I'm just saying that it's interesting how conservatives think they did it all on their own. I also think one of the reasons Hollywood people tend to be Democrats is that they remember where they came from . . . they remember their humble beginnings. Humble. A good word.

People in the working class vote their pocketbook, in case you missed it our tax is still based on Bush' tax code, that's why you have to see an increase in your taxes despite the exorbitant taxes currently proposed by the administration. Congress elected not to wipe out his code because of the upcoming election. 

I am neither 'Republican' or 'Democrat'. You assume that Repulicans come from affluent parentage. I was raised in a poverty level family. I worked every summer in high school to earn money to 'make my own clothes' for school. I married a lower middle class man who earned our living in the military, fighting to give you all freedoms you now have. Our children were brought up in a middle class family and yes we did it on own, I didn't see anyone accompanying my husband to work, so I assume he was working by himself! I worked and no one accompanied me. So, we earned money to live by ourselves. 

You earn money to live, if it takes one, two, or three jobs. When you do your taxes and you see them go up then you realize you are paying more for the government to use--on what? How many of you know where your tax money is going?


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Sherbearkub said:
> 
> 
> > Country Bumpkins said:
> ...


I don't know who that woman would depend on since she had to family. I do know who took care of my husband when he fell under a train while providing for his family. He lost a leg, both hips and many other injurys. First I took care of him, our family , our church and also his employer. The Union Pacific RR. After he retired from RR at 41 we continued our woodworking business and all we help start our daughter in a jewelry business and our 2 sons in a parkinglot maintance business. Also in the mean time we sold fireworks and anything we could to make a living. We helped put up the firework tents also. We had insurance with rr. It is very hard for my husband to do all of this but with 1 1/2 legs and no hips has not stopped trying in 23 years. We have employed and been the employees but we have always worked for what we have. That is why i can say we are Blessed by God for helping us thru all of this. Also in the middle of all of this my husband had gotten HC from the 32 pints of blood from the hospital. We never thought to ask anyone to pay our way. Thanks for the welcome .


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## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

grammaollie said:


> People in the working class vote their pocketbook, in case you missed it our tax is still based on Bush' tax code, that's why you have to see an increase in your taxes despite the exorbitant taxes currently proposed by the administration. Congress elected not to wipe out his code because of the upcoming election.
> 
> I am neither 'Republican' or 'Democrat'. You assume that Repulicans come from affluent parentage. I was raised in a poverty level family. I worked every summer in high school to earn money to 'make my own clothes' for school. I married a lower middle class man who earned our living in the military, fighting to give you all freedoms you now have. Our children were brought up in a middle class family and yes we did it on own, I didn't see anyone accompanying my husband to work, so I assume he was working by himself! I worked and no one accompanied me. So, we earned money to live by ourselves.
> 
> You earn money to live, if it takes one, two, or three jobs. When you do your taxes and you see them go up then you realize you are paying more for the government to use--on what? How many of you know where your tax money is going?


Sounds like we have a lot in common, Grammaollie. I've worked two jobs when I had to, went back to school to get my degree while raising 3 kids after a divorce, and paid off my student loans. I know how lucky I was to be able to do that.

I used to go out for breakfast every Saturday with my best friend, and there was a waitress there who looked like she was probably in her 40's. "What happens to her if she slips on the ice and breaks an ankle?" I wondered. How would she pay her bills? Lots of good, hard-working people are one sickness or accident away from devastation. I don't mind if my tax dollars help them out. I do mind when my tax dollars go for cost-plus contracts in an unnecessary war, however.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

LillyK said:


> Sherbearkub said:
> 
> 
> > Country Bumpkins said:
> ...


I'm not here to join you, but to show others what you are doing!


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## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

I used to work for an attorney who made most of his money from one client, the regional hospital. He sued people who didn't pay their hospital bills. Lots of these folks were under the assumption that as long as they sent something every month, it would be okay. It wasn't. Then, following the lawsuit, there would be wage garnishments and liens on homes. One mother had a 17-year old daughter in intensive care for three days following a car accident. Three days of care cost almost 60,000. The daughter died on the fourth day. One year after her death, the lawsuit was filed. A year after they started garnishing the mother's modest wages, she filed for bankruptcy. I cheered. Oh, and FYI, it's harder to file for bankruptcy now.


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## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I am getting a clue that the group that started this thread are not even knitters or crochetors . You must be a group that as you say is pushing your own agenda. I have heard about this groups that push and bully their way into groups on the net. My prayers are with you because you are a sad lot. I am glad you did get it changed to talk about policics and religion. God Bless and have a great day because this is the day that the Lord hath made. I am going to rejoyce and be glad in it. God Bless our America!


I don't feel the "progressives" are being bullying or pushy when they confine to one thread, When other totally unrelated threads were becoming a platform for American politics I did feel bullied and intruded upon. They are entitled to discuss politics, in this thread they can find like-minded contributors. The beauty of it is I can visit or not, as I please, it is not foisted upon me


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> I've always wondered how people in the working class could justify voting Republican when Republican policies can be so harmful to them. Then, when having a rousing political discussion with a co-worker (we're still friends . . . ha ha), it occurred to me that they must have been born without the "There-But-For-the-Grace-of-God-Go-I" gene. I think Liberals know how precarious life can be. They can also appreciate the good luck they've had . . . to be born in an economically vibrant place to two parents who believed in education and who stayed employed, healthy, and alive until their kids were raised. Or maybe they had a mentor or another encouraging adult to open their minds to possibilities and say, "You can do it." Not having these things doesn't mean you can't rise above your circumstances, because you can. I'm just saying that it's interesting how conservatives think they did it all on their own. I also think one of the reasons Hollywood people tend to be Democrats is that they remember where they came from . . . they remember their humble beginnings. Humble. A good word.
> 
> People in the working class vote their pocketbook, in case you missed it our tax is still based on Bush' tax code, that's why you have to see an increase in your taxes despite the exorbitant taxes currently proposed by the administration. Congress elected not to wipe out his code because of the upcoming election.
> 
> ...


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## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

I, too, come from a lower, working-class background and was the first in my generation to graduate from college. To do so I lived at home and worked for my tuition, books, etc. It wasn't easy, but I'd never declare that I did it on my own! I was blessed with parents who valued education and moved to a city that had a commuter college I could attend. Americans before me had built and financed the schools I attended. College was affordable and I had no student loans to repay. The labor market was such that I got a good job when I graduated. For all that, I am thankful. Several degrees and a career I loved later, I am retired and comfortable. But what about my grandchildren??? It is for them that I am working hard to change the present course. It offends me to be accused of having evil, insidious intentions by participating in this forum. And to question my credentials as a knitter? Do you think I joined KP over a year ago so that I could infiltrate and brainwash its members today? Yeah, sure. By the way, I learned to knit when I was 12 and will be 75 next month. Do I have permission to stay?


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## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

Please correct me if I'm wrong in my recollection, but when the Bush tax cuts were enacted, they included a time limit. They were supposed to expire in 2010 because we couldn't afford them . . . they would cause the deficit to explode. Then, when President Obama extended them, it was because he didn't want to raise taxes on an already struggling middle class. He also wanted an extension for unemployment benefits. In exchange, he agreed to the Republicans' demand that the wealthy get to keep their tax cuts. Without that agreement, taxes would have gone up for everybody, middle class included. 

The Republicans are quite out in the open about who they're fighting for. And it isn't you.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Sherbearkub said:
> ...


Country Bumpkins - After serious consideration all I can say to you is "There are none so blind as they who will not see." I hope you don't waste any more of your precious time out here with the Progressives.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

tryalot said:


> Country Bumpkins said:
> 
> 
> > I am getting a clue that the group that started this thread are not even knitters or crochetors . You must be a group that as you say is pushing your own agenda. I have heard about this groups that push and bully their way into groups on the net. My prayers are with you because you are a sad lot. I am glad you did get it changed to talk about policics and religion. God Bless and have a great day because this is the day that the Lord hath made. I am going to rejoyce and be glad in it. God Bless our America!
> ...


Thanks Tryalot! You understand we are not looking for converts here. Drop by whenever you like and if you have any questions of us just ask.


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## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

ctknoll25 said:


> I, too, come from a lower, working-class background and was the first in my generation to graduate from college. To do so I lived at home and worked for my tuition, books, etc. It wasn't easy, but I'd never declare that I did it on my own! I was blessed with parents who valued education and moved to a city that had a commuter college I could attend. Americans before me had built and financed the schools I attended. College was affordable and I had no student loans to repay. The labor market was such that I got a good job when I graduated. For all that, I am thankful. Several degrees and a career I loved later, I am retired and comfortable. But what about my grandchildren??? It is for them that I am working hard to change the present course. It offends me to be accused of having evil, insidious intentions by participating in this forum. And to question my credentials as a knitter? Do you think I joined KP over a year ago so that I could infiltrate and brainwash its members today? Yeah, sure. By the way, I learned to knit when I was 12 and will be 75 next month. Do I have permission to stay?


Hi CT!! Please stay!!


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Country Bumpkins said:
> 
> 
> > LillyK said:
> ...


 Lol so now I am not welcome? I am not the one that is blind.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Sherbearkub said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong in my recollection, but when the Bush tax cuts were enacted, they included a time limit. They were supposed to expire in 2010 because we couldn't afford them . . . they would cause the deficit to explode. Then, when President Obama extended them, it was because he didn't want to raise taxes on an already struggling middle class. He also wanted an extension for unemployment benefits. In exchange, he agreed to the Republicans' demand that the wealthy get to keep their tax cuts. Without that agreement, taxes would have gone up for everybody, middle class included.
> 
> The Republicans are quite out in the open about who they're fighting for. And it isn't you.


The administration agreed to keeping the cuts because once thrown out the majority of taxpayers in the $20k to $30 will go back to Clinton's tax code and they will pay 146% more than they have been. 
The very wealthy may pay less but they own companies that provide JOBS.


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## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

grammaollie said:


> Sherbearkub said:
> 
> 
> > Please correct me if I'm wrong in my recollection, but when the Bush tax cuts were enacted, they included a time limit. They were supposed to expire in 2010 because we couldn't afford them . . . they would cause the deficit to explode. Then, when President Obama extended them, it was because he didn't want to raise taxes on an already struggling middle class. He also wanted an extension for unemployment benefits. In exchange, he agreed to the Republicans' demand that the wealthy get to keep their tax cuts. Without that agreement, taxes would have gone up for everybody, middle class included.
> ...


Ummmm . . . so where are the jobs, Grammaollie? We've had stagnant job growth for 10 years. Trickle down economics does not work. Never has. Let me know if you want me to show you a chart.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Grammaollie
The rich own companies that provide jobs so they deserve big tax cuts? How's that working out?


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Sherbearkub said:


> ctknoll25 said:
> 
> 
> > I, too, come from a lower, working-class background and was the first in my generation to graduate from college. To do so I lived at home and worked for my tuition, books, etc. It wasn't easy, but I'd never declare that I did it on my own! I was blessed with parents who valued education and moved to a city that had a commuter college I could attend. Americans before me had built and financed the schools I attended. College was affordable and I had no student loans to repay. The labor market was such that I got a good job when I graduated. For all that, I am thankful. Several degrees and a career I loved later, I am retired and comfortable. But what about my grandchildren??? It is for them that I am working hard to change the present course. It offends me to be accused of having evil, insidious intentions by participating in this forum. And to question my credentials as a knitter? Do you think I joined KP over a year ago so that I could infiltrate and brainwash its members today? Yeah, sure. By the way, I learned to knit when I was 12 and will be 75 next month. Do I have permission to stay?
> ...


CT this is where you belong. Don't let anyone stop you from coming to this site. The person who was so rude to you has nothing better to do with her time than be nasty. She doesn't know you. I wouldn't give two cents for her comments. I believe you are one of us. The crazies want us to give up and we have to support each other and stay right here. I think if we start introducing ouselves to each other in PM we will find we have a lot in common and it's those things that we have in common that have brought us together here on "our Progressive thread". We should see this as our safe haven. Please stay!


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## tired n' cranky (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks, Lilly, for all of your work. I am the mother of a 28yr old lesbian currently working on a phd in health communications. I won't tell you where because I am her mother and there are way too many nut jobs who would love to do her harm because of her sexuality. We suspected she was gay when she was 5 and she came out to us when she was 17. Even though we had welcomed her older sisters friend into our home when his parents kicked him out for coming out to them, she wasn't sure how we would react. I want everyone to understand that homosexuality is NOT A CHOICE! It is very difficult to go through life knowing that there are those who wish you harm because of your sexuality. We will love, honor, and support both of our daughters for the rest of our lives. For those of you reading this who feel sorry for me , don't. She is brilliant, funny and she adores her parents, sister and brother-in-law. What more could a Jewish mother want?!

My objections to the politics of the day are many and varied. Abortion is legal, you may not like it, but it's legal. Nobody will force an abortion on you. Separation of church and state doesn't exist, we're fooling ourselves. If you're going to preach politics from the pulpit your church should be paying taxes. If you don't want to live next door to a dirty Jew,(like me) or a black, Asian, or Hispanic family, put your house on the market because we're staying put. If you have a problem with gays it's your problem. Regardless of what some believe they should be allowed to marry if they are lucky enough to have found "the one". You won't be on the guest list. Would somebody please explain to me how married gays threaten the sanctity of marriage? Haven't we heterosexuals done enough damage to it?
It would pretty dull if we were all alike.


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## tired n' cranky (Aug 2, 2011)

I almost forgot, I knit, crochet, weave, spin, sew and I figured out how to felt my cats fur by adding a little merino!


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## stargazer21 (Apr 15, 2012)

tired n' cranky said:


> Thanks, Lilly, for all of your work. I am the mother of a 28yr old lesbian currently working on a phd in health communications. I won't tell you where because I am her mother and there are way too many nut jobs who would love to do her harm because of her sexuality. We suspected she was gay when she was 5 and she came out to us when she was 17. Even though we had welcomed her older sisters friend into our home when his parents kicked him out for coming out to them, she wasn't sure how we would react. I want everyone to understand that homosexuality is NOT A CHOICE! It is very difficult to go through life knowing that there are those who wish you harm because of your sexuality. We will love, honor, and support both of our daughters for the rest of our lives. For those of you reading this who feel sorry for me , don't. She is brilliant, funny and she adores her parents, sister and brother-in-law. What more could a Jewish mother want?!
> 
> My objections to the politics of the day are many and varied. Abortion is legal, you may not like it, but it's legal. Nobody will force an abortion on you. Separation of church and state doesn't exist, we're fooling ourselves. If you're going to preach politics from the pulpit your church should be paying taxes. If you don't want to live next door to a dirty Jew,(like me) or a black, Asian, or Hispanic family, put your house on the market because we're staying put. If you have a problem with gays it's your problem. Regardless of what some believe they should be allowed to marry if they are lucky enough to have found "the one". You won't be on the guest list. Would somebody please explain to me how married gays threaten the sanctity of marriage? Haven't we heterosexuals done enough damage to it?
> It would pretty dull if we were all alike.


I agree with everything you just said, tired n' cranky. Have never understood why the concept of "live and let live" is such a difficult one for certain folks to wrap their minds around. You have my sympathy living in Oklahoma - I live in neighboring Missouri, and being progressive is no picnic here either.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

We'll see you later alligators! How many can relate to that? Take a deep breath and blow it out slowly, relax and have a pleasant night's sleep. Hope to see you all tomorrow.


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## tired n' cranky (Aug 2, 2011)

oh, I know. We grew up in KC and our oldest lives there so we are up there often. It's pretty red up there!


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Sherbearkub said:


> grammaollie said:
> 
> 
> > Sherbearkub said:
> ...


I don't understand why you think there was stagnant job growth for 10 years, and the data on BLS supports low unemployment for the majority of Bushes tenure until 2 months before the election.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Do any of you remember the Carter administration and the election of Ronald Reagan, All 52 states voted for Reagan. After that we had a booming economy.


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## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Country Bumpkins - After serious consideration all I can say to you is "There are none so blind as they who will not see." I hope you don't waste any more of your precious time out here with the Progressives.


Thank you for saying it so succinctly. I am really enjoying this thread. As an Australian I am pleased to find some American woman can and do think and express their opinions.

I was tempted to reply when I first read the posting by Country Bumpkins, but something stayed my hand and I read additional postings. There is no need for me to post my initial thoughts now, they have already been expressed.

American politics differ from Australian, but we still have many problems that are similar. You may not know Tony Abbot but he is a failed want to be catholic priest. He spent a few years training then thought he knew more than his tutors. Heaven forbid if he should ever become Prime Minister, he would set women's rights back decades. He fought very hard to stop the introduction of the morning after pill, he is fighting against same sex marriage, his one aim in life is to be Prime Minister. He rants and raves against the Labor Party, who are in office, but is very light on with regard to Policy. He says no no no no to everything, but does not put any policies forward. He says he will abolish this that and the other, but fails to say what he will do instead. I know this is a very nasty thing to say, but have you seen his deputy, Julie Bishop. I think she makes a barbie doll seem intellligent. She sits there with a fake smile or smirk on her face, nodding in agreement whenever Mr Rabbit opens his mouth, and when she speaks she just echoes what he has said.

So, with a religious leader voted into power in America and a religious leader voted into power in Australia, what next? A pretty grim prospect for those who do not follow any religion.

Our Prime Minister is 
a female
not married and living with her partner, OMG they are living in sin!!!!!
has no children, OMH what does she know about raising a family?????
is of Welsh origin, as am I and proud of it. I also have Irish blood.
is an athiest. 
belongs to the Labor Party

These things are quoted as the reasons why she should not be Prime Minister, not her policies. Any policies she does have are slammed.

Me, I have one criticism. Why does she not have a good Welsh name, like Rhonda? She could have it as a third or fourth name. My middle name is Rhonda.

But I am really enjoying this thread. Written by women of substance. March forward ladies, banners held high.


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## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

tired n' cranky said:


> Thanks, Lilly, for all of your work. I am the mother of a 28yr old lesbian currently working on a phd in health communications. I won't tell you where because I am her mother and there are way too many nut jobs who would love to do her harm because of her sexuality. We suspected she was gay when she was 5 and she came out to us when she was 17. Even though we had welcomed her older sisters friend into our home when his parents kicked him out for coming out to them, she wasn't sure how we would react. I want everyone to understand that homosexuality is NOT A CHOICE! It is very difficult to go through life knowing that there are those who wish you harm because of your sexuality. We will love, honor, and support both of our daughters for the rest of our lives. For those of you reading this who feel sorry for me , don't. She is brilliant, funny and she adores her parents, sister and brother-in-law. What more could a Jewish mother want?!
> 
> My objections to the politics of the day are many and varied. Abortion is legal, you may not like it, but it's legal. Nobody will force an abortion on you. Separation of church and state doesn't exist, we're fooling ourselves. If you're going to preach politics from the pulpit your church should be paying taxes. If you don't want to live next door to a dirty Jew,(like me) or a black, Asian, or Hispanic family, put your house on the market because we're staying put. If you have a problem with gays it's your problem. Regardless of what some believe they should be allowed to marry if they are lucky enough to have found "the one". You won't be on the guest list. Would somebody please explain to me how married gays threaten the sanctity of marriage? Haven't we heterosexuals done enough damage to it?
> It would pretty dull if we were all alike.


 Welcome sister, your comments say it all. You love your daughter and she seems to be a great lass, working and studying and making a life for herself. With your help she is going to succeed in life. I wish you both success and happiness.

You forgot to mention the working girls, though. We are having political discussions on this topic at the moment. Our current State Attorney General, soon to retire, was trying to introduce reform in this area. Reform, I do not think so.

People misunderstand how a brothel works. I am against the Bikies and Triads bringing girls in from Asia and virtually holding them as slaves, but they are a working industry supplying a service. It is the oldest profession.

They rant and rave about having a brothel near a school, but silent on having a grog store or a TAB near a school. They rant and rave about traffic problems, well how many cars do they think will be there at the one time. A neighbour with husband, wife and several children all of whom have cars and motor bikes can create more noise and traffic problems than a brothel.

Then they want to fine the punters, the men who use the brothels. This I cannot understand. No I am not, nor never have been, a working girl. I said in my teens I would not be a worker I would rather be the madam, sitting there counting the money the girls had earnt for me. People have a wrong impresson of working girls, often gained from watching B grade movies. They are not bleached blondes, drunk or drugged out of their skulls, cigarette dangling from the corner of their mouths. This type of girl would not attrack the punters. The local knocking shops advertise as offering 'the girlfriend experience' and if you think about it, this is what men want. The girlfriend experience without the unnecessary hassles of being landed with a paternity suit, catching a disease, being knocked on the head and robbed by a pimp or being tricked into marriage when they do not want to get married. There are a lot of men who frequent brothels and spend much of the hour they pay for talking, yes talking.

And a message to the religiously inclined, please do not quote or misquote your bible at me, you have your prejudices and I have my views.


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## tired n' cranky (Aug 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> Do any of you remember the Carter administration and the election of Ronald Reagan, All 52 states voted for Reagan. After that we had a booming economy.


Unless you were in the auto industry. I don't remember how many plants lost a shift. I do remember that it was the end of the Leeds plant in Kansas City, MO. To this day, nearly 30 years later, that facility sits empty and my family resides in Oklahoma.


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## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

tired n' cranky said:


> grammaollie said:
> 
> 
> > Do any of you remember the Carter administration and the election of Ronald Reagan, All 52 states voted for Reagan. After that we had a booming economy.
> ...


This is something that I cannot understand. Why does this facility sit empty nearly 30 years later. Could it not be used for some industry. Why?


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Someone made a post in General Chit-Chat today (6/19)suggesting that someone start a non-Progressive thread. Here's what I said to her, and I say it to you all, too. "Progressive or non-Progressive, such threads aren't breaking the KP rules for General Chit-Chat. I recently askied Admin to close down the Progressive Chat Cafe thread for the very reason posts like yours and many others are so negative. Admin says no rules are being broken. I can accept that. We all have the right of free speech, and anyone who doesn't want to follow a thread can easily ignore it. That's not happening, and I think it's a shame. Also, most of us know it isn't always a good idea to discuss politics (or religion) in certain situations. I think that's true here even though it is general chit-chat and no one is breaking any KP rules. I've suggested the Progressive Chat Cafe start a blog elsewhere and let all us KPers know where to go to participate if we want to. I suggest the same for anyone who wants to discuss politics and/or religion. These threads here may not be breaking the rules, but I think they are divissive and separate us instead of uniting us." Please think about starting a blog elsewhere.


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## Catarry (Apr 10, 2012)

craftylady49 said:


> Someone made a post in General Chit-Chat today (6/19)suggesting that someone start a non-Progressive thread. Here's what I said to her, and I say it to you all, too. "Progressive or non-Progressive, such threads aren't breaking the KP rules for General Chit-Chat. I recently askied Admin to close down the Progressive Chat Cafe thread for the very reason posts like yours and many others are so negative. Admin says no rules are being broken. I can accept that. We all have the right of free speech, and anyone who doesn't want to follow a thread can easily ignore it. That's not happening, and I think it's a shame. Also, most of us know it isn't always a good idea to discuss politics (or religion) in certain situations. I think that's true here even though it is general chit-chat and no one is breaking any KP rules. I've suggested the Progressive Chat Cafe start a blog elsewhere and let all us KPers know where to go to participate if we want to. I suggest the same for anyone who wants to discuss politics and/or religion. These threads here may not be breaking the rules, but I think they are divissive and separate us instead of uniting us." Please think about starting a blog elsewhere.


 I think it's a good experiment, though I did laugh when I saw a thread opened up for "non-progressives." In my old profession, the rule of thumb was to avoid negative definitions.

I think the most important caution we should take is keeping the feelings and opinions on politics strictly confined to this thread. It would be unwise to let these discussions seep over into our other postings.

Knitting itself is non-partisan, except for being picker or thrower, and just remembering that and keeping hold of our civility is what will let us explore what's on our minds. I've been touched to read about the struggles we face and I've been very interested to see how experience influence politics. Altogether I have been impressed by the chance to hear what's going on in our heads besides that steady count of "knit2, purl2", or whatever the pattern asks for.


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## Catarry (Apr 10, 2012)

Dear Sher...

I listen to NPR almost constantly. 

I check out Alternet.org, but I do take 'em with a grain of salt. I think sometimes they fall into the same holes that more conservatively oriented websites do: ad hominem arguments, demonization, assertions rather than facts, but they do come through sometimes, depending on the contributor.

As a union member, I follow "In These Times" online.

I check out Fox News and Drudge Report, mainly because I don't want to create my own hermetically sealed echo chamber by using only left of center sources.

I sometimes search for primary English language news sources in countries in the spotlight...some fascinating stuff out there.

I follow links when they're included, because the original reports are sometimes quite different from the ones that come up online.

I used to do some broadcast news, so I'm very skeptical about just about everything and like to source news as broadly as possible.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Catarry

I am with you. I have enjoyed this thread and the stories it has engendered. And it has enriched my KP experience to know there are a lot of "people like me" here politically as well as all kinds of other people who might be anywhere on the political spectrum.

Interestingly, there is a "Donate to Mitt Romney victory" advertisement on this thread. Admin can scarcely shut down a KP political discussion when political candidates can buy ads here!

It has always surprised me that some posters ask for a discussion they dislike to be removed, when the mechanism for self-removal requires no effort whatsoever. Just don't open the thread! 

How can a thread not opened interfere with the reader's enjoyment of discussions on needlework and the many other topics that appear here.

I see a lot said on KP that I disagree with, political or not. So what? That's what an open site is for! I read what I want to and don't read the rest.

Having said that, if a self-styled "non-progressive" enters the Progressives Chat Cafe and makes a comment, I would hope we Progressives will be courteous, gentle, tolerant, and interested in what they have to say, rather than couching queries and comments in aggressive language.

I myself enjoy political argument but many don't. Let's try to keep it in the realm of civil discourse. 

"I disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Isn't that a First Principle in this country?

It is credited to Voltaire, an Enlightenment thinker whose views influenced both American and French revolutionaries who replaced dictators who repressed public speech with democratic forms of government which encourage public speech.


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## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

Catarry said:


> Dear Sher...
> 
> I listen to NPR almost constantly.
> 
> ...


Yes, yes, YES!!! I feel the same way . . . What is the source? What is the back story? Don't just feed me soundbites. The false outrage on both sides turns me off and prevents us from having meaningful discourse. Like you, I also expose myself to other viewpoints so I don't get trapped in a bubble. Some of my conservative friends absolutely refuse to even watch Obama give a speech. They would rather have Rush or Sean dissect it for them. And then, if I ask them a question (because I'm curious and sincerely want to understand their criticism), they take it as an attack and quash the conversation completely. I don't get it.

Anyway . . . I'm enjoying this thread. I like reading the comments from all of the knitters and thinkers. Love you guys!


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## Dee-D (Aug 29, 2011)

Race has nothing to do with what is going on right now. What do the rest of you think Some people like to throw out the race card.


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

Race or not, the disrespect towards our President is disgusting. I'm embarrassed when I see stuff like this.
kat

http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/06/montana-gop-convention-features-obama-library-riddled-with-fake-bullet-holes.php?m=1


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

katrinka said:


> Race or not, the disrespect towards our President is disgusting. I'm embarrassed when I see stuff like this.
> kat
> 
> http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/06/montana-gop-convention-features-obama-library-riddled-with-fake-bullet-holes.php?m=1


This "caper" was intolerable and disgusting, and I still have the impression that Obama's race and the whole birther thing is at the root of at least some of the hatred. The republican leadership had every chance to remove this offensive building, but I guess they let it stand.
I believe you mentioned this before, Kat, but no Obama hater is going to come right out and say that race is the reason for the prevailing attitude within the ranks of the republican leaders.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Dee - Are you saying race is not an issue or it is? Sorry, I'm not clear on what you are saying.


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## frankie2963 (Mar 25, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> We are all created in God's imagine as far as I see things. The Bible says there will always be the poor and if a man doesn't work he doesn't eat. My family has always worked for a living so we don't expect the goverment to pay our way. So far we have been Blessed with alot because we had no ones help but God.We have never been without no matter who our President is or was. We pay taxes like everyone that works . I still say God Bless our America and all of its people!


Ok I have been reading and listening and have basically kept my nose out of it but when you bring into the conversation that I might be a freeloader because I need help from the people I have worked hard all my life to feed then I cannot stay quiet any longer...my story I was 6 years old when I picked up my first hundred dozen eggs and by the time I turned 16 and started my first non-farming job I had already put in as many working hours as a man working 80 hours a week for ten years. I then took on a 40 hour a week job plus put in another 60 hours on the farm...yeah I had no time to stop and eat and many times I have had a dinner full of dust because I was eating and working...and sleep was completely unheard of( I'll sleep when I am dead comes to mind here)...when I was 12 I had a tumor removed from my knee... then when I was 21 I got married started my own family took on another 20 hour a week job while studing to be a nurse blew out the lower back and still worked the farm with my father... when I was 25 I worked a 40 hour job at the hospital as a nurse continued my studies and raised my babies...at 26 I had to quit being a nurse as due to my back I could no longer lift my patients so I went back to being a student(advanced agriculture classes) working as a short order cook and working the farm while caring for the kids...(yup you got it never did get that back fixed) then came the final blow when I was 29 in my prime I fell to the floor and could not stand up again...I had a five year old child at home 2 jobs and my father relied on me to do all the jobs he did not have time to get to because he was busy working off the farm to try and feed the remaining children they had at home....And I could not stand up or move you got it I ruptured 2 disks in my lower back one in my upper back and fractured too vertabrae in my tail bone(I was knocked off the hay wagon by a stray bale from the kicker)...I went through months of therapy and laying flat on my back...I paid all of my medical bills myself(I had no insurance and the farm insurance did not cover family members) as a matter of fact I just made the last payment on the final one this year and that was 20 years ago...but through the process of all of this I also became very sick with bone cancer which I have now beaten twice...I lost my home...used every penny i had saved...and applied for ssi...thank god that those bennefits were there as my youngest was now 7 and i had no other means of support for her...so you tell me again how after I gave everything I am to feeding this country I am not entitled to the help I now recieve from that same country...and as you can see from the history(short version) I would not have ever asked had I had another choice in the matter...
and as for the statement you say you found in the Bible I do not in all my years of reading my Bible remember where it was ever said that a person needed to work to eat...my God never would turn his back on anyone even if they never worked a day in their lives...and as you say we are all created in the image of God and therefore we should also do as he would do and help our fellow man when ever he may need it....as a final note: to this day my brother still works that same farm day in and day out to put food on your table with very little compensation...and before you spout about the price of food just remember that the farmer on the other end does not make the same minimum wage as you do that is why he works twice as long for less pay...the cost of food in the supermarket is due to the middle man having to cover his costs not due to the measley amount the farmer is paid...oops got a little off course but I just could not resist letting you know that the majority of us on disability, SSI, SSD, SSA, medicare and medicaid have also paid into the sytem that is there to help us when we can no longer help ourselves...oh yeah and even today I try hard to not be a burden on my society by making a buck or two here and there(which is subracted from my SSI check) continuing to farm and provide my local food pantry with fresh crops so that I can like my God share what I have so that no man will go hungry...Don't get me wrong I instilled in my children as my father did in me that if you want something in this life you have to work very hard to get it... But as for the nessities of life if we can no longer do that work I also believe that we all should give what we can to help those less fortunate...I really hope no one takes offense at this I just really felt I had to defend my position here...now I will again back quietly out the door...


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

frankie2963 said:


> Country Bumpkins said:
> 
> 
> > We are all created in God's imagine as far as I see things. The Bible says there will always be the poor and if a man doesn't work he doesn't eat. My family has always worked for a living so we don't expect the goverment to pay our way. So far we have been Blessed with alot because we had no ones help but God.We have never been without no matter who our President is or was. We pay taxes like everyone that works . I still say God Bless our America and all of its people!
> ...


Sweet lady I never said I didn't believe in SSI or even welfare. You paid in just as I have.

I just don't like to have to support the people that never tried to work or better themselves. No matter what color they are black or white it shouldn't be that people expect the government to take all the expenses. I don't want to became a nation that has to be dependent on the government for our every need. I like the freedom to go as I please and do as I please.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Country Bumpkin: 

Please provide examples of the people who never tried to work and expect the government to take care of them. 

I have never known any personally. But of course I don't know everyone. Such people are often mentioned in politics, and I would like to know who they are, where they are, how this works. 

I lived in rural southwest Arkansas from the age of 6 to the age of 24. Since then I've lived in Texas, Florida, California, Massachusetts, and Vermont, and revisited Arkansas many times. Yet I have not observed this population of freeloaders, so I need help knowing who they are.

Perhaps you have known some personally? Or have evidence such people exist in significant numbers? If so, please share the information.

The reason for an open forum like this is so that people with different sets of knowledge and experience can help others to understand. Please help me to understand this often-invoked specter of a population of freeloaders, and also describe what or who in this country you feel threatens your ability to do what you please and go where you want.

I would really appreciate it. Thank you.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

frankie2963 said:


> Country Bumpkins said:
> 
> 
> > We are all created in God's imagine as far as I see things. The Bible says there will always be the poor and if a man doesn't work he doesn't eat. My family has always worked for a living so we don't expect the goverment to pay our way. So far we have been Blessed with alot because we had no ones help but God.We have never been without no matter who our President is or was. We pay taxes like everyone that works . I still say God Bless our America and all of its people!
> ...


 Here are the scriptures you asked for. It is 2 Thessalonians 3:10. Also Matthew 26:11, and mark 14:7 I will not quote them. You can evaluate it yourself.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

LillyK said:


> So sorry. I think MN is the center of the Universe, yah sure!


Uffda! from St Cloud


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Betty White said:


> ewe who said:
> 
> 
> > alcameron said:
> ...


Okay, I'm confused. You started a thread for non progressives before or after you posted twice here. just trying to figure this out


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Country Bumpkins said:
> ...


Country Bumpkins,
It looks as though you are trying to pick a fight while these women are trying to have an "adult conversation". If it is not for you, then quietly back away and find a thread that meets your needs. Americans should'nt be at war with each other and neither should the ladies in this forum. Amen


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Just as I posted in the non progressive thread, I would like to share a quote from the "West Wing". Lawrence O'Donnell, Jr. wrote these words and I live by them. Here goes:
"What did liberals do that was so offensive to the Republican party? I'll tell you what they did. Liberals got women the right to vote. Liberals got African-Americans the right to vote. Liberals created Social Security and lifted millions of elderly people out of poverty. Liberals ended segregation. Liberals passed the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act. Liberals created Medicare. Liberals passed the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act. What did conservatives do? They opposed them on every one of those things ­ every one. So when you try to hurl that label at my feet, 'Liberal,' as if it were something to be ashamed of, something dirty, something to run away from, it won't work, Senator. Because I will pick up that label and I will wear it as a badge of honor." End quote.
The senate vote against the Fair Pay Act was devastating.
When Michell Bachman was running for president a conservative friend found my remarks about that to be a slap to women everywhere. I simply stated that I didn't believe that she was qualified, woman or not. Now I see this important bill get slammed down in the senate and it almost scares me. I think we woman need to think very carefully about who we vote for and why. As for the negative posts about Obama, remember this; a president can only do what his congress and senate will let him do. He is not a king who can make laws on his own. If you want to shout in anger, write the deadbeat congressman-woman in your district. I for one refuse to regress. My requests to my congresswoman fall on deaf ears, as she is Michell Bachman who also stated that she would do anything in her power to make sure that Obama would be a 'one term prez.' I have a lot of faith in this man and I will work my tucas off to get him re elected. Why? because he is fighting for me. Sorry for the long post.


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## frankie2963 (Mar 25, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> here are the scriptures you asked for. It is 2 Thessalonians 3:10. Also Matthew 26:11, and mark 14:7 I will not quote them. You can evaluate it yourself.


I do not need to re-evaluate them but you must put them back into the context of the chapters you pulled them out of and you will find the true meaning behind the words. As with any written work if you take a word or so out of context those words have a whole different meaning than was intended in the complete work. put it back together and then the true meaning will just pop out at ya...


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Bumpkin,
Let's not overlook Matthew, chapter 25 verses 31-46.


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## tired n' cranky (Aug 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins, this is Knitting Paradise, why would non knitters/crocheters be on here, seriously! If you're on here. scolding us for not discussing knitting get out of general chit-chat. You want to quote bible verses and tell those of us who do NOT share your feelings or religious beliefs what awful people we are............I'm outa here!


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## ginnyinnr (May 20, 2012)

It sounds like you'd like to get into a discussion on politics, candidates, the upcoming election.

I'm new since May I think, this year, and have enjoyed the friendly chat, information and thoughts on various subjects, every day problems that bother us. I'd not like to see this turned into a hateful blog. 

How about gardening, our pets, baking bread, favorite pastimes in addition to knitting? There are lots of "threads" to follow that bind us together as a group.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

tired n' cranky said:


> Country Bumpkins, this is Knitting Paradise, why would non knitters/crocheters be on here, seriously! If you're on here. scolding us for not discussing knitting get out of general chit-chat. You want to quote bible verses and tell those of us who do NOT share your feelings or religious beliefs what awful people we are............I'm outa here!


Where did I scold you? Someone asked me where in the Bible did I get my info.Where did I say you were awful? I did say someone sounded like a Socialist not that they were. I thought this was a conversation. Doesn't look like anyone has not called me names.Get a grip Tired and Cranky. I am not judgeing you I am just telling you how I have dealt with life. Another thing I said was that no one cares if Obama is black.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Bumpkin,
> Let's not overlook Matthew, chapter 25 verses 31-46.


No I would never overlook that one. That is my favorite!


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## jheiens (Jan 20, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> Do any of you remember the Carter administration and the election of Ronald Reagan, All 52 states voted for Reagan. After that we had a booming economy.


Did we now?

I do remember the 18% interest rates and that wasn't on my credit card!!


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## ginnyinnr (May 20, 2012)

Well, I have to quit the forum for a few days to avoid the unpleasantness. Speak your peace elsewhere PLEASE!
Not nice at all what is coming through. 

Off to my garden tomorrow.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I like it too. It says alot helping the sick and poor.The base of the Statue of Liberty says "give us your sick,tired,hungry and poor." Why would we not help people in need?
I to have worked since I was 14 after school and then full time after that, taking courses as I could afford them.I had a very successful career in the jewelry industry until I became disabled. I did not want to leave my job. My boss made that decision because he didn't want my health insurance costs to go up on him. It took me three years to get SS disability benefits. During that time my medical bills ate up everything I had saved. Do I feel like The government is supporting me? Nope. I paid into that SS insurance for 42 years.Would I like to be working instead? Of course I would. I loved what I did for a living. Thing is, there aren't any jobs that will let you work when you feel good, and stay home when you can't function properly and do your job.
I help out anyone that I can who is in need. I went to Catholic school K thru 12 and that is what I was taught to do. And I think it is the right thing to do.
During those days of working in the jewelry industry I studied and earned my Registered Jewelers and Gemoogist titles.A few years later a man joined our team. We had the same levels of education and the same expertise at what we did. He liked to brag alot and one day let out what he was making to another employee. 
He was making $8.00 more per Hr more than I was. Fair? No way!
The GOP thinks this okay. 2 female senators from the state of Michigan were banned from speaking on the floor of the state house because one of them used the term 'vagina' in one of her pleas on behalf of her constituents to keep the gov't out of hers.The other one used the word 'vasectomy'
and she was also restricted from speaking. Now we all know how backwards that is. It's also unconstitutional. These anti woman tactics that the GOP is throwing at the working women of today is nothing but a total disgrace and a slap in the face as well. Now while discussing this over lunch with a male friend of many years, his comment was "suck it up, at least you aren't ruled by the Taliban". Of course I am not. That is why I live in the USA. But I'll be damned if I'll let a political party take away my rights that women fought very hard for in the past. A party that is so divided they can't say what they stand for as ONE party.
I am going to say something here that might ruffle a few feathers. I am very surprised that Rep. women are standing for this garbage. I am not a "burn the bra feminista' (God only knows I need mine) in any way, nor am I a racist. I can't say that for Mitch McConnell, Eric Cantor, and John Boehner. I am surprised that they left their white robes and hoods back home. And they have just shown every woman in this country how much regard they have for us when they killed the Fair Pay Act. Not much at all. Independants and Democrats are fighting for us, not against us.


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## stargazer21 (Apr 15, 2012)

tired n' cranky said:


> Country Bumpkins, this is Knitting Paradise, why would non knitters/crocheters be on here, seriously! If you're on here. scolding us for not discussing knitting get out of general chit-chat. You want to quote bible verses and tell those of us who do NOT share your feelings or religious beliefs what awful people we are............I'm outa here!


When the idea for this site was first conceived, I was pleased at the idea of having a site where like-minded progressives could discuss the political and social issues of the day pleasantly and intelligently. I still am, and will continue to tune in until someone pulls the plug. In the meantime -

"General" chit-chat means anything in general anyone wants to talk about, including politics (which apparently is not forbidden by site policy). This thread is for a particular type of political mindset, which obviously isn't for everyone. Those who strictly want to discuss knitting, crocheting, cooking, vacations they've taken, etc., need only change channels within this site in order to be able to do so.

In regards to those of a different political bend who want to visit here, I'm fine with intelligent and respectful discussion from that side being posted here and would be willing to respond in kind. As for the very small minority of folks who have this confused with bullying and browbeating in hopes of beating others into submission, my response will continue to be - no response at all.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

jheiens said:


> grammaollie said:
> 
> 
> > Do any of you remember the Carter administration and the election of Ronald Reagan, All 52 states voted for Reagan. After that we had a booming economy.
> ...


Here's what I remember about the Reagan years: Iran-Contra affair, deregulation, deficit, inflation, dementia, shift to the right, firing of the air traffic controllers. I'm sure there's more. He also did damage to the state of California.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

I want to ask everyone's forgiveness. I must have come across different that i intended. My husband and i work with the youth and young adults. I guess I am used to them and their personitilies We have always had real conversations on Bible and polics. It was not my intention to hurt anyone . I love my country and I love all of you. You are a big part of my life every day. Please forgive me. We all have the right to our belief for religion and polictis. I do respect your right to what you believe.I have learned avaluable lesson. I am going to stick to knitting . Dreamweaver is right this is not the place to talk because you can't see each other face or express your meaning on the typewriter. Sorry I played too rough. I'm too sarcastic. I know. Again sorry. I asked Adminstation to erase my post but would not . Love ya'll and you mean alot to me.


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## tired n' cranky (Aug 2, 2011)

You're kidding yourself if you think that nobody cares that our president is black. You're in Arkansas, I've been there and I am not buying your "nobody cares". I hear it way too often here in Oklahoma.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

OK, I admit I've been following this thread. My ten foot pole disappeared when I read the new topic about starting a non-Progressive thread. In this thread, Catarry said "I think the most important caution we should take is keeping the feelings and opinions on politics strictly confined to this thread. It would be unwise to let these discussions seep over into our other postings." I wholeheartedly agree. Even in this so-called Progressive thread I am reluctant to discuss my own views as I am a more radical leftist than anyone of you Progressives seem to be. Start with these details about me. I was born and raised in Berkeley, CA. I'm part of the 4th generation of my family who can say that. I started high school in 1964, about 2 weeks before the Free Speech Movement broke out on the University of California at Berkeley's campus, just a couple of blocks from Berkeley High. I graduated in 1967. I saw all of the largest, most violent of the protests against the so-called war in Vietnam. My father was a union organizer. Who of you would like to hear some of my political views and still consider me an interesting and positive contributor to this thread? Most likely not many of you could do that. If this thread turned into a blog wlsewhere I think we could all express ourselves more openly.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Bumpkin,sometimes conversation about politics can get heated. I have no ill feeling toward you at all. We are all women who want to see things improve. I told you my personal story to let you see that not everybody who receives gov't help are lazy and don't want to work. I volunteer to help get out the vote and am on the phones as often as I can be because I want to help keep the hope and get things changed for the better for myself, my daughter and her soon to be daughter. I think we all need to kick back and really peruse why we are voting for who we are and what we can do as individuals to help make the changes that we want to see.
No hard feelings here!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> OK, I admit I've been following this thread. My ten foot pole disappeared when I read the new topic about starting a non-Progressive thread. In this thread, Catarry said "I think the most important caution we should take is keeping the feelings and opinions on politics strictly confined to this thread. It would be unwise to let these discussions seep over into our other postings." I wholeheartedly agree. Even in this so-called Progressive thread I am reluctant to discuss my own views as I am a more radical leftist than anyone of you Progressives seem to be. Start with these details about me. I was born and raised in Berkeley, CA. I'm part of the 4th generation of my family who can say that. I started high school in 1964, about 2 weeks before the Free Speech Movement broke out on the University of California at Berkeley's campus, just a couple of blocks from Berkeley High. I graduated in 1967. I saw all of the largest, most violent of the protests against the so-called war in Vietnam. My father was a union organizer. Who of you would like to hear some of my political views and still consider me an interesting and positive contributor to this thread? Most likely not many of you could do that. If this thread turned into a blog wlsewhere I think we could all express ourselves more openly.


I'm listening. You might be surprised. Some of us might be holding back a little.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> craftylady49 said:
> 
> 
> > OK, I admit I've been following this thread. My ten foot pole disappeared when I read the new topic about starting a non-Progressive thread. In this thread, Catarry said "I think the most important caution we should take is keeping the feelings and opinions on politics strictly confined to this thread. It would be unwise to let these discussions seep over into our other postings." I wholeheartedly agree. Even in this so-called Progressive thread I am reluctant to discuss my own views as I am a more radical leftist than anyone of you Progressives seem to be. Start with these details about me. I was born and raised in Berkeley, CA. I'm part of the 4th generation of my family who can say that. I started high school in 1964, about 2 weeks before the Free Speech Movement broke out on the University of California at Berkeley's campus, just a couple of blocks from Berkeley High. I graduated in 1967. I saw all of the largest, most violent of the protests against the so-called war in Vietnam. My father was a union organizer. Who of you would like to hear some of my political views and still consider me an interesting and positive contributor to this thread? Most likely not many of you could do that. If this thread turned into a blog wlsewhere I think we could all express ourselves more openly.
> ...


You can say that again lol!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > craftylady49 said:
> ...


In the political climate of today, anything a millimeter to the left of center is "radical."


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Bumpkin,sometimes conversation about politics can get heated. I have no ill feeling toward you at all. We are all women who want to see things improve. I told you my personal story to let you see that not everybody who receives gov't help are lazy and don't want to work. I volunteer to help get out the vote and am on the phones as often as I can be because I want to help keep the hope and get things changed for the better for myself, my daughter and her soon to be daughter. I think we all need to kick back and really peruse why we are voting for who we are and what we can do as individuals to help make the changes that we want to see.
> No hard feelings here!


I appreciate that.Thanks !


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> jheiens said:
> 
> 
> > grammaollie said:
> ...


Not to forget that he raised taxes 11 times! 11 times!


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

CraftyLady...Not to sound "competitive," but I doubt you are more a "radical leftist" than I am. Or, more accurately, than many people think I am. 

I am not keen on labels and pigeonholes and I don't share every view on every issue with all my progressive friends. And I can silently giggle about some of my most excruciatingly politically correct, composting, left-leaning friends as much as I privately ridicule some of what seem the brainless declarations of the right. 

But on some issues my views would certainly be considered radical by most people I encounter -- although, of course, they don't seem radical to me! They seem to make perfect sense!

On reproductive rights, for example, I don't understand why males even get to vote! I am a woman who loves men and boys, but until childbearing costs males as much as females I think males should stay out of the debate.

I have strong views on overmedicalization, and on the wedding-industrial complex, among other things, and go nuts watching people act like sheep in the face of no greater an authority than some hideous TV commercial.

Born in the Bible belt to a devout mother and grandmother, I've traveled a long way from those beginnings. And although of late I've come to appreciate some of the traits that are a legacy of that background (good manners, compassion, the Golden Rule), my views on religion would scorch the page.

So yeah, I'll keep holding back a bit.


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## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

Oh my gawwwwd, yes . . . the wedding-industrial complex. My kids never bought into it, and yes, I will take some credit for that.

Oh, and I loved the West Wing quote, Northwoods Gal. That was one of my favorite shows. 

Country Bumpkin, sometimes people are careless with their words without meaning any harm by them. As long as we're discussing some hot-button issues, we all have to remember not to take it personally. 

In my book, whether we agree or disagree, we all have the joy of knitting in common, and that makes us good people.

Oh . . . I have an interview on Thursday!! Yay!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Good luck with that interview!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Sherbearkub said:


> Oh my gawwwwd, yes . . . the wedding-industrial complex. My kids never bought into it, and yes, I will take some credit for that.
> 
> Oh, and I loved the West Wing quote, Northwoods Gal. That was one of my favorite shows.
> 
> ...


I loved the West Wing. When Jimmy Smits said that in the debate episode I wanted to stand up and cheer. I had no idea that Lawrence O'Donnell had written so many episodes! My hubby bought the entire set of dvd's in the presidential brief case holder. It's almost eerie that so many of the episodes are true to what is happening today. Good luck with your interview


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> CraftyLady...Not to sound "competitive," but I doubt you are more a "radical leftist" than I am. Or, more accurately, than many people think I am.
> 
> I am not keen on labels and pigeonholes and I don't share every view on every issue with all my progressive friends. And I can silently giggle about some of my most excruciatingly politically correct, composting, left-leaning friends as much as I privately ridicule some of what seem the brainless declarations of the right.
> 
> ...


Amen to that! We don't need sheep, we need people who will form their own opinions on what we need to do to move forward as a country.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Northwoods Gal said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > jheiens said:
> ...


Let's keep to accurate posting--

http://dailycaller.com/2012/06/06/ronald-reagan-raised-taxes-11-times-the-real-story/

Also, somewhere back someone asked me where are the jobs? Our current administration says everything is rosy with jobs, don't you believe our president?


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## Xiang (Sep 3, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > katrinka said:
> ...


If that is true, then I don't think it is a bad thing


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

When did government (shared) services, ie police & fire response, building & maintaining roads, highways, airports, schools, providing clean water, sewer & garbage removal, some knowledge & beauty in public parks & museums, providing a safety net for us when we need it become a bad thing?

Those things should be taken care of by the states.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Sherbearkub said:


> Oh my gawwwwd, yes . . . the wedding-industrial complex. My kids never bought into it, and yes, I will take some credit for that.
> 
> Oh, and I loved the West Wing quote, Northwoods Gal. That was one of my favorite shows.
> 
> ...


Good luck aith your interview!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Bumpkin,
> Let's not overlook Matthew, chapter 25 verses 31-46.


Northwoods Gal - Glad you are here. Unlike some other visitors I think you understand what this thread is about. I don't think a lot of people believe Progressives come from all different backgrounds just like everyone else does. I started working when I was 12, was blest to have a pretty decent upbringing, got a college education and raised a family. I didn't get any handouts but I was lucky and didn't need any. My job was eliminated last year and I have not been able to find another one. I am either over qualified, underqualified, too old, or a woman. So yes I will apply for Social Security that I earned, not a government handout, as I will have to house and feed myself. Since I won't be old enough for Medicare I will keep my fingers crossed that no terrible accident befalls me over the next 3 1/2 years. And yes, I want the Obama healthcare plan. The typical American story of so many today is that their lives are being turned upside down. Progressives work for what they get in life but we believe in this strange thing called compassion for our fellow man. No poor person ever took anything away from me but plenty of the wealthiest people in this country are pillaging the land that I love. I'm not going to lay down and play dead. I will try with every ounce of my being to stop my country from being taken over by those who want to take away my most basic freedoms. Whatever you do for the least of my brothers that you do unto me. That's my rule.


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## Catarry (Apr 10, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I want to ask everyone's forgiveness. I must have come across different that i intended. My husband and i work with the youth and young adults. I guess I am used to them and their personitilies We have always had real conversations on Bible and polics. It was not my intention to hurt anyone . I love my country and I love all of you. You are a big part of my life every day. Please forgive me. We all have the right to our belief for religion and polictis. I do respect your right to what you believe.I have learned avaluable lesson. I am going to stick to knitting . Dreamweaver is right this is not the place to talk because you can't see each other face or express your meaning on the typewriter. Sorry I played too rough. I'm too sarcastic. I know. Again sorry. I asked Adminstation to erase my post but would not . Love ya'll and you mean alot to me.


Dear Knitter, (I just can't call you a bumpkin)

Thanks so much for your gracious comment! It renews my hope that we can continue this thread without hurting each other.

You've set an example I hope I can live up to -- here and in my flesh-and-blood interactions.

Thanks again,
Cath


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

I saw (on Bill Maher's show a few weeks ago) an ad against a candidate running for office in the Texas primary getting slammed for being a _moderate_.

from http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/31/nation/la-na-texas-senate-20120531

_In what has become one of the worst criticisms that can be flung at a Republican this cycle, Dewhurst was accused of being a "moderate" in an attack ad by the conservative Club for Growth, which funneled $2.5 million into the race. The group also was heavily involved in the Indiana defeat of veteran Republican Sen.Richard G. Lugar by a tea party challenger._

kat
_Moderate Liberal Socialist Beader & Knitter_


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## Catarry (Apr 10, 2012)

craftylady49 said:


> OK, I admit I've been following this thread. My ten foot pole disappeared when I read the new topic about starting a non-Progressive thread. In this thread, Catarry said "I think the most important caution we should take is keeping the feelings and opinions on politics strictly confined to this thread. It would be unwise to let these discussions seep over into our other postings." I wholeheartedly agree. Even in this so-called Progressive thread I am reluctant to discuss my own views as I am a more radical leftist than anyone of you Progressives seem to be. Start with these details about me. I was born and raised in Berkeley, CA. I'm part of the 4th generation of my family who can say that. I started high school in 1964, about 2 weeks before the Free Speech Movement broke out on the University of California at Berkeley's campus, just a couple of blocks from Berkeley High. I graduated in 1967. I saw all of the largest, most violent of the protests against the so-called war in Vietnam. My father was a union organizer. Who of you would like to hear some of my political views and still consider me an interesting and positive contributor to this thread? Most likely not many of you could do that. If this thread turned into a blog wlsewhere I think we could all express ourselves more openly.


Hey, Crafty....

You're not hanging ten out there on the left all by yourself. 
I *am* a union organizer...or at least I was until I retired...then I had more time to devote to working on my union's governing board and working with other unions.

I think of this country's version of democracy sort of like all of us being in a big sack...only the vaguest idea of what's going on in the world and in history. We each push in the direction that makes sense, so you and I are in one corner of the bag, pushing off to the left...and trying to be patient and clear so others will start pushing our way...if we don't go over the big cliff I think is over there on our right 
:lol:


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## hannabavaria (Sep 25, 2011)

Before I became a naturalized citizen, I was taught that voting is my duty as such.
I find it highly disturbing, to have people, who were born with that right, think of it as an 'progressive concept'! :shock:


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

I have an extra busy day today and appreciate everyone's posts that quote mine. I'll write up a longer post this evening or tomorrow morning that will contain some thnga that will define my political stance and probably, I hope, further the discussions in this thread.


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## Dee-D (Aug 29, 2011)

I agree that it was not right however it would not be right if he was white is all I have to say. Your race card is still there.


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## Dee-D (Aug 29, 2011)

I am saying that not all people talk race when it comes to the policies of the gov.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

hannabavaria said:


> Before I became a naturalized citizen, I was taught that voting is my duty as such.
> I find it highly disturbing, to have people, who were born with that right, think of it as an 'progressive concept'! :shock:


We have never claimed that as a progressive concept. We fought for our independence in this country and along with that came the constitution, the bill of rights, etc. What we want is for people to be informed and exercise that right. There are several states who are trying to take away that right from natural born citizens who are elderly, black, hispanic, or college students.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> Northwoods Gal said:
> 
> 
> > alcameron said:
> ...


Accurate posting?? LMAO. dailycaller is hardly a fact finding site. In fact it was one of their reporters who kept heckling the President in his Rose Garden Speech.So tacky. There are 7 other moderate sites that will back my statement up.
As for jobs, I never heard anyone from the White House say that things are rosy, but we are making progress. The bail out for Detroit put more people back to work making cars in the USA again. By the way, everybody knows that presidents don't create jobs. People create jobs. Entrepreneurs create jobs.
Our country's infrastructure is in dire need of repair ie: railroads, freeways, roads and bridges. There would be thousands of jobs right there, but the congress won't give an inch. So more bridges will collapse, the roads and freeways will deteriorate, and trains will continue to derail and people will still be out of work.
If I said it once, I'll say it a million times if I have to. A president can only accomplish what the congress and senate will permit him to do.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

As I said before we are here to stay in the Progressive's Chat Cafe. Before you leave our thread maybe you would like to tell us why it bothers you so that we are here. No one is water boarding you are they? As for me I would just go elsewhere. You must find us very fascinating so maybe we should take your constant presence here as a compliment. If that is the case I will be very polite and say Thank You :lol


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

And what do you think about the Michigan legislator who was barred from the floor for using the word vagina. I guess her conservative male counterparts could not stand her using the anatomically correct word for a woman's birth canal. The ride ( kind of like the flume) that most of us made on our entry into this world, the Vagina Ride! Vagina, Vagina, Vagina kind of a catchy tune isn't it. Sadly, these conservatives who tell us how special the mom, dad, kids family is such a sacred institution and yet they think a woman's Vagina is such a nasty thing the word cannot be uttered in public. Do you find this as hypocritical as I do. I think intead of the Vagina monolgues we should start the Vagina dialogues so we who proudly posses Vaginas can sing their praises. Maybe these poor misguided men have Vagina envy?


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Dee-D said:


> I am saying that not all people talk race when it comes to the policies of the gov.[/quote
> Some of us believe that race is a part of the issue along with a lot of other things. We have a right to our beliefs and so do you. We agree to disagree.


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## Dee-D (Aug 29, 2011)

agree


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## Silverstreak (Oct 14, 2011)

For those of you who really believe that the hatred for this President is NOT about race, let me do a little David Letterman for you:

7. November 2008 - before any policies were discussed or passed - before the Inauguration - people in the state of Texas began hanging signs that simply said, SECEDE. This had nothing to do with policy. It simply hearkens back to the good old days of slavery when the Southern states needed to secede because "the folks in Washington can't tell us how to treat our ******".

6. Citizens in certain states training and retraining their kids to shoot/assassinate the President, because it was their patriotic duty to do so. (Verified news story).

5. NC Congressman sitting in the House screams out, "LIAR" while the President is speaking to a joint session - would that have been done to ANY other President?

4. Mentioned earlier - reporter who thinks nothing of interrupting THIS President while he is speaking. Even after being asked politely to wait, he still screams. Again, was this ever done to GW, Bill Clinton or even Ronald Reagan? NO

3. Goaltender of Stanley-Cup winning NHL Team refuses to go to the White House - as every winning team is invited to do, because THIS President is not in line with his values - REALLY?

2. Governor of Arizona snubs and then wags her finger at THIS President as though he is her domestic that she can fire for "uppityness".

1. The Drudge Report posts unflattering pictures of African-Americans who have no relevance to the President in hopes that folks will make the old monkey/ape/non-human connection to THIS President, Mike Tyson, Al Sharpton, and Louis Farrakhan

Please tell me what would happen if an African-American even TRIED to do this to another President. The traitor and arrest calls would begin instantaneously. But in these cases, the offenders are not made to apologize and when they do it is at least the most insincere non-apology you will ever hear. Sorry, but this is very much about race and has been since late 2008.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Silverstreak said:


> For those of you who really believe that the hatred for this President is NOT about race, let me do a little David Letterman for you:
> 
> 7. November 2008 - before any policies were discussed or passed - before the Inauguration - people in the state of Texas began hanging signs that simply said, SECEDE. This had nothing to do with policy. It simply hearkens back to the good old days of slavery when the Southern states needed to secede because "the folks in Washington can't tell us how to treat our ******".
> 
> ...


Brava, Silverstreak!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Silverstreak said:
> 
> 
> > For those of you who really believe that the hatred for this President is NOT about race, let me do a little David Letterman for you:
> ...


Thanks for putting it out there Silverstreak. My own observation is it's getting worse. Racism seems so pervasive today. The right loves to divide and conquer and pointing fingers based on our racial differences is so obvious and easy for them to use. President Obama has shown such grace and strength of character through all of this it is amazing. He seems to be getting stronger the rougher it gets for him. I believe he loves this country as we all do and he is the one who given another four years can do it. We have got to get him the help he needs in other key positions too so his programs can go forward and get the country back on the right track. Fired up, ready to go, ladies!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Very well stated, Silverstreak!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> hannabavaria said:
> 
> 
> > Before I became a naturalized citizen, I was taught that voting is my duty as such.
> ...


Don't you have to know something about American history to become a citizen? Our founding fathers were liberal/ progressive. Had they not been, we would still be ruled by England. We would not have our own constitution and bill of rights. So yes, it was a progressive/liberal idea.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> hannabavaria said:
> 
> 
> > Before I became a naturalized citizen, I was taught that voting is my duty as such.
> ...


Please don't forget the GLBT community. Pride weekend starts Friday. :thumbup:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Will there be a parade in Minneapolis, Lilly? I know New York has one.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

LillyK said:


> And what do you think about the Michigan legislator who was barred from the floor for using the word vagina. I guess her conservative male counterparts could not stand her using the anatomically correct word for a woman's birth canal. The ride ( kind of like the flume) that most of us made on our entry into this world, the Vagina Ride! Vagina, Vagina, Vagina kind of a catchy tune isn't it. Sadly, these conservatives who tell us how special the mom, dad, kids family is such a sacred institution and yet they think a woman's Vagina is such a nasty thing the word cannot be uttered in public. Do you find this as hypocritical as I do. I think intead of the Vagina monolgues we should start the Vagina dialogues so we who proudly posses Vaginas can sing their praises. Maybe these poor misguided men have Vagina envy?


Why do people say "grow some balls"? Balls are weak and sensitive. If you wanna be tough, grow a vagina. Those things can take a pounding. 
― Betty White


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Northwoods Gal said:


> grammaollie said:
> 
> 
> > Northwoods Gal said:
> ...


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

grammaollie said:


> Northwoods Gal said:
> 
> 
> > grammaollie said:
> ...


You should quit listening to the constant efforts of the left to rewrite the history of the '80s. When President Reagan took office, the top income tax rate was 70%. When he left, the top rate was 28%. Google it.

His efforts to limit domestic spending were hampered by the Democrat congress--remember Speaker Jim Wright declaring his budgets "dead on arrival"? He did make a much needed increase in defense spending--and the result was the fall of the Soviet Union. A good investment, I'd say.

It was his tax cuts and pro-growth policies that gave us the recovery from Carter's disaster. That logic is still very valid today.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Sherry1 said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > One of the reasons for the Obama hatred in this country is race, plain and simple. They can't stand the thought that there's an African American sitting in the White House.
> ...


I agree, racism is the cause, but they will never admit it.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> grammaollie said:
> 
> 
> > Northwoods Gal said:
> ...


I don't need to listen to "constant efforts on the left" I was there and experienced the Reagan administration. Why doesn't any conservative who comes in here to chat mention George W.? Guess he was nothing to brag about. It is because of his 2 unfinanced wars and tax breaks to the uber wealthy and all his cronieism that put the country where it is today. He said that it would take at least 10 years to get the economy on track. You can google it. So they have to fall back on a dead president and base their campaigns on him. Sad.
Also, let's not forget the 4 trillion surplus that Clinton built up. Bush had that spent before his second year in office was up.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I guess it depends on whose facts you want to believe. Reagan raised taxes in "seven of the eight years he was in office." Taxes are lower today than during Reagan's reign. Also, the taxes on the rich were much higher then.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Martha French said:


> I am here but dead tired.
> Topic for tomorrow?
> How can we get People to vote? quote said:
> 
> ...


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I guess it depends on whose facts you want to believe. Reagan raised taxes in "seven of the eight years he was in office." Taxes are lower today than during Reagan's reign. Also, the taxes on the rich were much higher then.


Yup!

Just heard that Minnesota's own Timmy "the tyrant" Pawlenty is top choice for VP. Under his watch property taxes went up, a bridge went down killing 3 and injuring 148 , cut health insurance for indigent citizens and only 6,000 jobs were created. Oh boy!!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Betty White said:


> ewe who said:
> 
> 
> > alcameron said:
> ...


Good for you Betty. That is what America is all about. The right to choose and make decisions for yourself. I enjoy this blog and my decision is to participate, but you certainly don't have to.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Betty White said:


> I enjoy reading the non-knitting, general chit chat and feel that I know many of those who submit ideas to it. However, I know I can still enjoy all of those titles in that section as long as I can pick and choose the ones that interest me. That has always been a member's prerogative. So you can enjoy the freedom to write on any subject you choose in the Chat Cafe and we can all enjoy the freedom to choose the ones we will read.


Awesome--Someone finally gets it.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Betty White said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > One of the reasons for the Obama hatred in this country is race, plain and simple. They can't stand the thought that there's an African American sitting in the White House.
> ...


Race is the real issue, but you will never get the GOP to admit to it. One of the big causes we are in this mess is because of deregulation and Romney wants more deregulation. The top 1% should be paying their fair share of taxes. They are not at this time and haven't for 8 years. Mr Issa is doing everything to find corruption and create it if he can't find it. He is now saying the Obama is trying to get rid of guns. They are grasping at straws.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I am getting a clue that the group that started this thread are not even knitters or crochetors . You must be a group that as you say is pushing your own agenda. I have heard about this groups that push and bully their way into groups on the net. My prayers are with you because you are a sad lot. I am glad you did get it changed to talk about policics and religion. God Bless and have a great day because this is the day that the Lord hath made. I am going to rejoyce and be glad in it. God Bless our America!


I knit and crochet and am a liberal and my agenda is to keep the USA the wonderful country that it is. I am very fearful about what the GOP is trying to do to this country and I do not understand how people that are not part of the 1% could possibly like where this country would be headed if Romney wins. If you are not part of the 1% he will do nothing to benefit you. He will benefit only the 1%. Do you really want to pay more taxes so the 1% doesn't
have to?


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Northwoods Gal said:


> grammaollie said:
> 
> 
> > grammaollie said:
> ...


4 trillion dollar surplus, how do you come up with that number?


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Northwoods Gal said:


> grammaollie said:
> 
> 
> > grammaollie said:
> ...


4 trillion dollar surplus, how do you come up with that number?


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## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

Silverstreak said:


> For those of you who really believe that the hatred for this President is NOT about race, let me do a little David Letterman for you:
> 
> 7. November 2008 - before any policies were discussed or passed - before the Inauguration - people in the state of Texas began hanging signs that simply said, SECEDE. This had nothing to do with policy. It simply hearkens back to the good old days of slavery when the Southern states needed to secede because "the folks in Washington can't tell us how to treat our ******".
> 
> ...


Great list, Silverstreak! And for those of you who like visuals, I've attached examples of pics that were sent via mass email, not by my ******* uncle, but by Republican officials at the state level. There is no defense.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

NJG said:


> Country Bumpkins said:
> 
> 
> > I am getting a clue that the group that started this thread are not even knitters or crochetors . You must be a group that as you say is pushing your own agenda. I have heard about this groups that push and bully their way into groups on the net. My prayers are with you because you are a sad lot. I am glad you did get it changed to talk about policics and religion. God Bless and have a great day because this is the day that the Lord hath made. I am going to rejoyce and be glad in it. God Bless our America!
> ...


What is the GOP trying to do to this country?


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## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

And since I like pictures, here's another one:


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Sherbearkub said:


> And since I like pictures, here's another one:


Would you please explain what the picture is trying to portray?


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> This 'forum' is openly promoting extreme liberalism (Progressives) way left of the general populous. If you read closely you will see how they attempt to perseude you to vote their way. They have a picked a very large forum to send their message to and if you peak in once in awhile, you will they have been defeated.
> 
> People of average intelligence (us) can see what they are up to.
> 
> Progressives, Green Party, extremism, google them yourselves.


gramma, you are so wrong. There is nothing extreme about any of us. You have confused us with the republicans. They are the one that have become very very extreme. They are now leaning so far to the right they can no longer stand up straight. Consider all this talk about getting rid of contraceptives. What year do you want to take us back to? Our message is just to be sure you know the facts in order to make an informed decision.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

tired n' cranky said:


> Thanks, Lilly, for all of your work. I am the mother of a 28yr old lesbian currently working on a phd in health communications. I won't tell you where because I am her mother and there are way too many nut jobs who would love to do her harm because of her sexuality. We suspected she was gay when she was 5 and she came out to us when she was 17. Even though we had welcomed her older sisters friend into our home when his parents kicked him out for coming out to them, she wasn't sure how we would react. I want everyone to understand that homosexuality is NOT A CHOICE! It is very difficult to go through life knowing that there are those who wish you harm because of your sexuality. We will love, honor, and support both of our daughters for the rest of our lives. For those of you reading this who feel sorry for me , don't. She is brilliant, funny and she adores her parents, sister and brother-in-law. What more could a Jewish mother want?!
> 
> My objections to the politics of the day are many and varied. Abortion is legal, you may not like it, but it's legal. Nobody will force an abortion on you. Separation of church and state doesn't exist, we're fooling ourselves. If you're going to preach politics from the pulpit your church should be paying taxes. If you don't want to live next door to a dirty Jew,(like me) or a black, Asian, or Hispanic family, put your house on the market because we're staying put. If you have a problem with gays it's your problem. Regardless of what some believe they should be allowed to marry if they are lucky enough to have found "the one". You won't be on the guest list. Would somebody please explain to me how married gays threaten the sanctity of marriage? Haven't we heterosexuals done enough damage to it?
> It would pretty dull if we were all alike.[/quot
> ...


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

NJG said:


> grammaollie said:
> 
> 
> > This 'forum' is openly promoting extreme liberalism (Progressives) way left of the general populous. If you read closely you will see how they attempt to perseude you to vote their way. They have a picked a very large forum to send their message to and if you peak in once in awhile, you will they have been defeated.
> ...


Even if that is true, they do not want to get rid of contraceptives,
they want the people using them to pay for their own protection. Cannot understand why that is a problem for anyone. Why should the federal government pay for birth control?


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> Sherbearkub said:
> 
> 
> > grammaollie said:
> ...


Gramma:
Because when Clinton took office there was $155 billion deficit. He raised taxes and left office with a $236 billion SURPLUS while creating 23.1 million jobs.

Bush took office with that $236 billion surplus, cut taxes and left office with $458 billion deficit while creating 3 million jobs.

It also said Reagan took office with a $74 billion deficit and left office with a $155 billion deficit.

This is something I printed out of a magazine before Obama was elected. I wish I could remember exactly where I got it, possibly the Wall Street Journal but I am sorry, I'm not sure.

I


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> Do any of you remember the Carter administration and the election of Ronald Reagan, All 52 states voted for Reagan. After that we had a booming economy.


Reagan increased the deficit from $74 billion to $155 billion. Guess Republican weren't to concerned about a balanced budget then.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

NJG said:


> grammaollie said:
> 
> 
> > Sherbearkub said:
> ...


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Martha French said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Country Bumpkins - After serious consideration all I can say to you is "There are none so blind as they who will not see." I hope you don't waste any more of your precious time out here with the Progressives.
> ...


OMG and I thought we were doing good to get an African American elected.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> Someone made a post in General Chit-Chat today (6/19)suggesting that someone start a non-Progressive thread. Here's what I said to her, and I say it to you all, too. "Progressive or non-Progressive, such threads aren't breaking the KP rules for General Chit-Chat. I recently askied Admin to close down the Progressive Chat Cafe thread for the very reason posts like yours and many others are so negative. Admin says no rules are being broken. I can accept that. We all have the right of free speech, and anyone who doesn't want to follow a thread can easily ignore it. That's not happening, and I think it's a shame. Also, most of us know it isn't always a good idea to discuss politics (or religion) in certain situations. I think that's true here even though it is general chit-chat and no one is breaking any KP rules. I've suggested the Progressive Chat Cafe start a blog elsewhere and let all us KPers know where to go to participate if we want to. I suggest the same for anyone who wants to discuss politics and/or religion. These threads here may not be breaking the rules, but I think they are divissive and separate us instead of uniting us." Please think about starting a blog elsewhere.


It is time to give it up. We are not going anywhere. You are the one that has to stay away if you do not like this. Why do you keep commenting? I think it's a shame too that you can't ignore this.


----------



## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

Sherbearkub said:


> Silverstreak said:
> 
> 
> > For those of you who really believe that the hatred for this President is NOT about race, let me do a little David Letterman for you:
> ...


Please tell me you are joking and these pictures were NOT sent to people. Anti defamation laws not apply here? These pictures are an insult.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Yes on Sunday. I will be marching with the ACLU. I got an email to march with the Obama bunch today. I didn't know they were having there own organized coalition in the Parade. Pride weekend in Minneapolis is the largest gathering of its kind in the Midwest. I'll be working Saturday at a booth in Loring Park where there will be a lot of activities going on. The booth I'll be working at is for Minnesota Families United who oppose an amendment to the state constitution to read that marriage is between one man and one women. I am straight and have been married for many years. I believe that my friends who have same sex committed relationships should have the same rights I and my husband have to be married and live openly as a married couple. The legislators trying to push this through believe that these couples will bring about the ruin of heterosexual marriage. I don't see how and I have yet to get an answer from any of them on this. I see it as equal rights. I respect that some people see any relationships other than heterosexual as being sinful but I don't agree but they have a right to their beliefs. I will be very sad if this amendment goes through.


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## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Yes on Sunday. I will be marching with the ACLU. I got an email to march with the Obama bunch today. I didn't know they were having there own organized coalition in the Parade. Pride weekend in Minneapolis is the largest gathering of its kind in the Midwest. I'll be working Saturday at a booth in Loring Park where there will be a lot of activities going on. The booth I'll be working at is for Minnesota Families United who oppose an amendment to the state constitution to read that marriage is between one man and one women. I am straight and have been married for many years. I believe that my friends who have same sex committed relationships should have the same rights I and my husband have to be married and live openly as a married couple. The legislators trying to push this through believe that these couples will bring about the ruin of heterosexual marriage. I don't see how and I have yet to get an answer from any of them on this. I see it as equal rights. I respect that some people see any relationships other than heterosexual as being sinful but I don't agree but they have a right to their beliefs. I will be very sad if this amendment goes through.


The one thing that will bring about the ruin of a heterosexual marriage is the banning of homosexual rights and forcing people to marry people of the opposite sex. This happened in the past and people entered into a heteroxual marriage with disasterous results. I believe that all people should be equal and have an equal right to happiness.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > And what do you think about the Michigan legislator who was barred from the floor for using the word vagina. I guess her conservative male counterparts could not stand her using the anatomically correct word for a woman's birth canal. The ride ( kind of like the flume) that most of us made on our entry into this world, the Vagina Ride! Vagina, Vagina, Vagina kind of a catchy tune isn't it. Sadly, these conservatives who tell us how special the mom, dad, kids family is such a sacred institution and yet they think a woman's Vagina is such a nasty thing the word cannot be uttered in public. Do you find this as hypocritical as I do. I think intead of the Vagina monolgues we should start the Vagina dialogues so we who proudly posses Vaginas can sing their praises. Maybe these poor misguided men have Vagina envy?
> ...


You said it!


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Martha French said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Yes on Sunday. I will be marching with the ACLU. I got an email to march with the Obama bunch today. I didn't know they were having there own organized coalition in the Parade. Pride weekend in Minneapolis is the largest gathering of its kind in the Midwest. I'll be working Saturday at a booth in Loring Park where there will be a lot of activities going on. The booth I'll be working at is for Minnesota Families United who oppose an amendment to the state constitution to read that marriage is between one man and one women. I am straight and have been married for many years. I believe that my friends who have same sex committed relationships should have the same rights I and my husband have to be married and live openly as a married couple. The legislators trying to push this through believe that these couples will bring about the ruin of heterosexual marriage. I don't see how and I have yet to get an answer from any of them on this. I see it as equal rights. I respect that some people see any relationships other than heterosexual as being sinful but I don't agree but they have a right to their beliefs. I will be very sad if this amendment goes through.
> ...


Me too.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> NJG said:
> 
> 
> > Country Bumpkins said:
> ...


Grammaolie why don't you tell us what plans Mitt Romney and John Boehner and Karl Rove have for our country. I have not heard any of them say what they plan to do to fix all the messes they created. Seriously, if you know something that I don't please tell us what their plans to save our beloved country are. Remember you must provide us with your sources for this information be it TV, radio, newspaper, magazine so we can go out and see for ourselves. It can't be just your opinion. I think that's fair we ask it of all the people who are serious about being here to prove it. Look forward to your reply.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> Northwoods Gal said:
> 
> 
> > grammaollie said:
> ...


The government and economists did.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> Northwoods Gal said:
> 
> 
> > grammaollie said:
> ...


The government and economists did.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Sherbearkub said:


> Silverstreak said:
> 
> 
> > For those of you who really believe that the hatred for this President is NOT about race, let me do a little David Letterman for you:
> ...


I had not seen those pictures before. That is disgusting and just like so many other times, no one in the republican leadership including Romney will stand up and say how wrong this is. Shame on all of them.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

SHEBEARKUB

In what state were those images sent out, and by whom and to whom? When was it?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> NJG said:
> 
> 
> > grammaollie said:
> ...


Grammaollie
They aren't asking the Fed Gov't to pay for their birth control. They are trying to make it so women can be covered for birth control by their insurance companies. Most insurance companies will not cover the pill regardless of the fact that it has many benefits besides just birth control. Endometriosos, ovarian cysts, heavy bleeding, etc. If insurance companies will cover Viagra for a man to use , then they should certainly cover the pill. It's all about equality.Viagra has no other benefits to a mans health besides boosting his ego and netherparts.
It makes me sad to see where the Republicans are trying to do here. Voting down the Fair Pay Act was another slap in the face. The majority in the senate passed the act, but the repubs. fillibustered it. So working women can keep working the same job with the same education as a man and get paid less.That's what they fillibustered for.
Some states are forcing women who need an abortion to go through the indignity of an inter vaginal ultrasound. Talk about evasive! And by the way, the governor from Texas said that he would eradicate birthcontrol in a primary debate.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

NJG said:


> grammaollie said:
> 
> 
> > This 'forum' is openly promoting extreme liberalism (Progressives) way left of the general populous. If you read closely you will see how they attempt to perseude you to vote their way. They have a picked a very large forum to send their message to and if you peak in once in awhile, you will they have been defeated.
> ...


Grammaollie here you go again. I started this thread and I am not trying to hypnotise you or use subliminal suggestions on you. I consider my self a Progressive because I used to consider myself a bleeding heart liberal but that name has gone out of use. I am a very average, normal grandmother who worked up until recently when my job was eliminated by outsourcing. I cannot find a job now as there is not a big demand for women in their 60's no matter their education or experience. I am a liability at this point. There are thousands of young people who can be hired and lots of Vets coming home too and school teachers, police and firefighters looking too. I am trying to figure out what I will be doing for the rest of my life. I started work at age twelve and worked my way through college when our government still believed education was important. I got a Pell Grant, work study(which meant I had to hold a job on campus) and an academic scholarship. I graduated in the top 1% in the nation and was a member of the National Honor Society. I made the dean's list throughout college and graduated from the University of Minnesota with a B.S. degree in Design from the college of Architecture. In my free time I was was also raising a toddler all by myself. My son was 5 when he got to see his mommy graduate. Nothing was handed to me on a silver platter and yes I am very proud of what I was able to accomplish with the hand up that I got from my government, family and friends who helped me along the way. My Parents wanted there children to have better lives than they did and be able to live the American dream. Later in life I met my husband and thanks to the G.I. bill my husband and I were able to purchase a home where we still live today. My husband's job was outsourced to another country and he had to reinvent himself and get another job. That was before the economy bottomed out. What he found was a far cry from what he had before so we have lost a lot of ground. I believe I am like most of the women out here and probably have more in common with you than you think. I first came out here to share in the Knitting threads and then found the Chat rooms. Some I find interesting some not. Since we have free speech protected by our constitution both you and I have a right to talk about what we want to out here. I'm not going to try to keep you quiet but I keep running into people out here who are trying to deny us our freedom as American's. Why do people want to do that to me? I love this country every bit as much as the next woman but like it or not our beloved country is going down the slippery slope. Where did the goodness go and all the opportunites this country held for it's people. Please tell me how Mr. Romney is going to fix all these messes. I'm just asking you for some answers that you can back up with facts. Not gossip, or my preacher told me this or that. You sound like you are a Christian. Didn't God give us brains to think with and make up our own minds what is good for us? You don't need somebody to tell you what you think. You are a woman who lives in a free country who can make her own decisions. I'm waiting for your reply.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> NJG said:
> 
> 
> > Country Bumpkins said:
> ...


Gramma the list is endless but I will give you a few. They want to destroy unions so the 99% will have no one fighting for them. They will cut Medicare-that hurts me and many many other people. They will destroy healthcare and believe me, they will have nothing to replace it. They will cut help for the poor and before you say something stupid like they may have to get a job, just remember there are many working poor with children who are just trying to get by and get to eat because of the help of food stamps. They will give more tax cuts to the 1% so someone will have to make up the difference so the middle class will be doing that. They will cut regulations on big banks so they can do the same thing they did to get us into this mess. They will cut regulations on the environment so big business can have more profit. Planned Parenthood will be unfunded so a lot of women will have no healthcare and that is just the beginning. They are trying to keep as many people as possible from voting, like what is going on in Florida. Any state that has a republican governor, house and senate are in the process right now of taking away women's rights, unions and voting rights. Iowa where I live was almost part of that. Our republican governor appointed a democratic senator to a utility board so he could have a special election and get a republican elected to replace her so they could control everything. Only thing is it didn't work, cause the democrat won the special election, but that tells you how sneaky and conniving they can be, and he tried to say that was not his motive. Ha


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Martha French said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Yes on Sunday. I will be marching with the ACLU. I got an email to march with the Obama bunch today. I didn't know they were having there own organized coalition in the Parade. Pride weekend in Minneapolis is the largest gathering of its kind in the Midwest. I'll be working Saturday at a booth in Loring Park where there will be a lot of activities going on. The booth I'll be working at is for Minnesota Families United who oppose an amendment to the state constitution to read that marriage is between one man and one women. I am straight and have been married for many years. I believe that my friends who have same sex committed relationships should have the same rights I and my husband have to be married and live openly as a married couple. The legislators trying to push this through believe that these couples will bring about the ruin of heterosexual marriage. I don't see how and I have yet to get an answer from any of them on this. I see it as equal rights. I respect that some people see any relationships other than heterosexual as being sinful but I don't agree but they have a right to their beliefs. I will be very sad if this amendment goes through.
> ...


I agree and the majority should not be allowed to vote on the rights of a minority. There should not be an amendment to the constitution banning gay marriage. The young people of today are not against gay marriage. If we can just hold on awhile, I think it will take care of itself. If you hear the name Bob Vander Plaats he is the republican from Iowa-ran for governor and lost thank God-that brought in a lot of out of state money and ran a campaign to oust 3 judges from the Iowa Supreme Court--the judges that said the ban on gay marriage was unconstitutional, but gay marriage is still legal in Iowa.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I couldn't tell you who made those photos and when and where, but I will tell you that they are absolutely disgusting.


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## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

Why on earth would you post such pictures? they are sick, disgraceful and offensive


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Will there be a parade in Minneapolis, Lilly? I know New York has one.


We just had ours in Salt Lake City the first weekend in June. It is the second largest parade in the state behind the _*Days of 47 *_ procession that commemorates the arrival of Brigham Young & his _Saints_ to Utah -then named _Deseret_.
100 (active) Mormons were scheduled to walk that Sunday to support the LGBT community (surprisingly, one of the largest populations in the West).
Over 300 LDS men, women & children showed up & marched right behind the parade marshall, in their church clothes, singing & carrying signs. It was very touching; many of them them put themselves @ risk of being disenfranchised, or worse, excommunicated from the heavy-handed organization, who fought against the ERA, has spent millions in other states to prevent passage of gay rights/marriage initiatives & is the theocracy known by all as Utah.
kat


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

Just a general question: Why is there so much reposting of others' comments? I think it's annoying.
kat


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

There is something very wrong when insurance companies earn their profits by refusing to pay healthcare costs for which they collect exhorbitant premiums.
Maybe a silly comparison, but what if you choose & pay for yarn, needles, patterns, supplies, & instead of sending them -exchanging goods for $$$- the company makes it profits by using every possible excuse to not fulfill your order, but keep the cash?
How does that make sense?
kat


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## Martha French (Aug 1, 2011)

Katrinka you are saying over 300 LDS men, women and children showed up and marched right behind the parade marshall, in their church clothes, singing and carrying signs. 
I think this is wonderful, so much support. I think things are moving forward.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

LillyK said:


> grammaollie said:
> 
> 
> > NJG said:
> ...


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

grammaollie said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > grammaollie said:
> ...


I don't listen to tv news, but my gut tells me Romneys plan is to get the current person who has severely damaged our country in the past 4 years out of office. I don't know what Karl Rove has planned or is even involved. Actually the democrats have been in office for 6 years because Bush had a complete democratic congress his last two. Now President Obama has been in office for 4 years holding complete democratic congress at 3 1/2years. What exactly has he accomplished that you can tell (not the talking heads tell you), from your very own everyday living, to improve your life so much that you think he needs to be reelected? Let's throw out of the conversation, gay marriages and abortion because neither one of those has any impact on what our federal government according to the constitution is suppose to provide for the American people. I will even be so kind as to mention the day to day cost of living, mine has gone up dramatically and am fairly certain it could be similar in other parts of the country.

Oh, you never answered my question on what the GOP is trying to do to this country especially since they haven't been in power for 6 years.

There is a wise old adage that says, believe nothing what you hear and half of what to see.


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## jheiens (Jan 20, 2011)

I had not intended to respond to the naysayers on this post because it was spiralling downward into name calling rather quickly. BUT I just spotted the remark re the President being in complete control of the Congress for the years of his administration.

If this is fact (and it's not), what has the Speaker of the House been doing all this time running his mouth in opposition to the President and his attempts to move the country in a different direction? When and where did John Boehner get the audacity and authority to contravene every attempt by the President to lead and govern if they are of the same party? 

Mr. Boehner is a republican. Otherwise he would NOT be the leader of the House of Representatives which has a majority of republicans in its membership. In case anyone missed that lesson in Civics class, that fact means that his party is in control of the house of Congress where most signaficant acts of legislation originate. It's a significant fact in the means/manner of governing in this country, people!!

Does recent history of legislation from the House give any indication of its interest in helping the President to govern this country or to improving the whole situation within our borders? 
I'm still looking for that information.

Mr Boehner has made it clear, along with some of the Senate's prominent members, that their sole aim is to remove this president without participating in any acts of governing, before taking up their duties as part of the governance of the country.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Grammaollie
Of course Romney is trying to get Obama out of office; he's the republican candidate. The point is that getting Obama out of office is probably his only goal because he sure hasn't put forth any valid ideas for what to do with this government---aside from allowing the rich to keep more of their money. The scary thing about today's Republicans is that they've adopted views that are so far to the right that even Ronald Reagan looks like a moderate! Just look at the people running for the republican nomination. Gingrich? Santorum? Bachman? I couldn't even believe these people were serious candidates! Did you watch any of the republican debates? The candidates were so far to the right that they were approaching the realm of craziness. And now the party is stuck with Romney, who has had to move to the right to satisfy that branch of the party. His campaign has Rove working the dirty tricks angle and the Koch brothers (and others) financing the whole thing.
Once again, I say to you, Gramma, that the republicans in Congress today have not allowed the passage of any good legislation because that would have made it look as though the Dems and Obama had done something good. They have never in 4 years compromised on anything and their mantra has been "no no no" to any form of taxation on the people who are earning the biggest $$$--the 1%. Their behavior is indefensible, as far as I'm concerned. The republicans of today have kept this country in the mess caused by the two BUSH wars and the biggest deficit ever! How's that working for us?


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## MGT (Oct 6, 2011)

Ok, I read through page four, and this is not Progressives discussing issues. It's already a cat fight. Byeeee.


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## Laura Lee (Apr 23, 2012)

Sorry, I couldn't resist! I love this graphic!


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## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

MaryMargaret said:


> SHEBEARKUB
> 
> In what state were those images sent out, and by whom and to whom? When was it?


These pictures are beyond belief, and I hesitated to post them because I didn't want to give them more of an audience. But then, there were some people here who were claiming that opposition to Obama has nothing to do with race. I apologize for offending anyone.

Mary Margaret, the first pic was sent in 2011 by an elected member of the central committee of the Republican party in Orange County, California. When she was criticized for it, she said it never occurred to her that it was racist; she merely found it "amusing."

The second pic was circulated soon after the President's inauguration by a Republican mayor in a town in California (what's with California????). After the outrage that followed, he stepped down.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Thanks for the info, SheBearKub. Orange County doesn't surprise me. It is its own world.


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## jheiens (Jan 20, 2011)

Laura Lee said:


> Sorry, I couldn't resist! I love this graphic!


Love it , Laura. Thanks for posting. JHeiens


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Unlike Laura and JHelens I don't equate a discussion of political issues, no matter how articulate or inarticulate the discussants may be, with adolescent gossip and backbiting. The stakes are very high this election year. The issues are extremely important. Passionate opinions are appropriate. Apathy can be lethal.

I understand many people are uncomfortable with discourse that has any element of conflict. But it's unkind and mistaken to ridicule people who care about politics. It's only necessary to stay away from any thread you dislike.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Laura, that picture was adorable and very comparable to the 112th Congress. Thanks for sharing.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> grammaollie said:
> 
> 
> > LillyK said:
> ...


Grammollie, I mean no disrespect by this.
Maybe you should start getting informed about what is happening around you. If you don't watch the news or read a paper or magazine, you will stay uninformed.
First of all, the Democrats have not been in power for the last 6 years. The Republicans have the majority in the House and Dems have the majority in the Senate. If the Dems try to pass anything in the Senate, the Republicans fillibuster. Therefore NOTHING gets accomplished. You can point the finger at the Pres and blame him, but you are wrong to do so. Blame the Republicans, because no matter what Obama tries to do, they block it. John Boehner, Mitch McConnell, and Eric Cantor have said publically that they will make Obama a one term President. And it became the retoric throughout the Republican Party.
They will vote to cut foodstamps for families in need by $90.00 per month next week. The Dems will vote the bill down, but the Republicans will fillibuster again. Alot of these people are working 2 jobs to keep a roof over their heads.

What are the Republicans doing to this country? They are keeping it stagnant. The improvements we need will not be accomplished, they are trying to strip away workers rights, Womens rights and making middle and lower class citizens carry the burden of paying higher taxes than the most wealthy in the US. And let's not forget 9-11. Obama said he would get Osama Bin Laden And he did along with a few other key operatives in Al Queda. George Bush after he declared war on Iraq was qouted saying he wasn't concerned about getting Bin Laden in his last term. You can google it or yuotube it.
And as far as racism in the House and Senate, it is very much a factor in what is happening. Now our Attorney General ( who is also a black man) is facing a contempt of Congress charge for something he did not start or have anything to do with.
That's what the republicans are doing to this country. 
Mitt Romney who says he will create jobs in the US speaks with a forked tongue. He has broken down more corporations and outsourced them bit by bit to gain his wealth. Nevermind all of the jobs he destroyed while doing this. 
That's what the Republicans are doing to this country.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

tryalot said:


> Why on earth would you post such pictures? they are sick, disgraceful and offensive


The question you should be asking is why the Republicans would create and then send out the pictures and who is holding them accountable. The GOP has become a nasty nasty group.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> grammaollie said:
> 
> 
> > LillyK said:
> ...


You say you don't listen to tv news. Well maybe I should try to catch you up on what is going on. To be honest Romney doesn't have a plan which you wouldn't know since you don't listen to him. He has handlers that tell him what to do and say. Karl Rove is very very involved. He has a super pac that takes in millions of dollars from unknown millionaires and billionaires . That money is being used to buy Romney. He will be so indebted to all these rich people he will never be able to actually make a decision that would be good for the America people should he be elected. His decisions will ALL be good for the top 1%. Obama had a democratic congress for two years. He got health care passed among other things but I wish he had done more. He spent too much time trying to work with the republicans. I wish he had just run right over the top of them and disregard everything they said. that is what they are doing to him now. Nothing has gotten done the last two years because the republicans won't allow it. The worst part of that is this country is going to hell and they don't care as long as they win and don't compromise. The GOP has been in control of the house for two years and have done nothing but try to take women's healthcare rights away. They have done absolutely NOTHING to promote job growth. If the democratic senate has a bill that they could pass, the senate republicans filibuster so it goes no where. My cost of living has gone up along with everyone else and I lost half of my retirement because of Bush and the republicans causing the melt down this country went through. Sounds like you and a lot of other people expected Obama to come in and snap his fingers and everything would be fixed. What you didn't realize is the republicans wouldn't allow it regardless of what happens to all of us. I don't believe you are very well informed Gramma so I would suggest you start paying attention. I would hate to see someone vote for Romney because they really don't have a clue as to what his plans are. Remember what I said. He doesn't have a plan, he is just a puppet. Listen to him talk off the cuff and maybe you will understand.


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## ginamarie12345 (Mar 13, 2012)

I for one don't know where some people have gotten the idea that this here thread is a bitch and moan session. The writer simply wants others to bring to the table items of worth, help and creativeness to us. 

I for one never knew there was a thing called a life line. I learned by reading these blogs and feel fortunate that I learned something new. 

I also did not know some of the joining of thread ways that there are.

Anyone else have some tidbits of information....inquiring minds want to know.... 

Thank you much to the experienced knitters who are willing to help us...


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> grammaollie said:
> 
> 
> > grammaollie said:
> ...


I worry that some of the PAC funds could come from off-shore sources and that we could be beholden to a foreign government.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Ginamarie12345 - I think you may have gotten lost in the big old Forum. I think you want to go back where it is knitting and sweetie pies. This here place is called Chit-Chat non-knitting talk. You see non-knitting means no knitting talk, something other than knitting. Do you understand dear? I hope you have a pleasant trip back to your safe place. Thanks for stop'n in and paying us a visit. Hope you don't get lost again. :thumbup:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Sherry1 said:


> NJG said:
> 
> 
> > grammaollie said:
> ...


We all should be worried about that since our Supreme Court decided that corporations are the same as people. They can contribute as much as they like to whomever they like and they do not have to disclose where the money comes from or how much they gave. Once again, thank the Republicans and the justices they put on the Supreme Court. Unfortunately, money plays way to big a part in elections and yes as you said it buys influence and then who really calls the shots? My money would be on the big bucks.


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## jheiens (Jan 20, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Unlike Laura and JHelens I don't equate a discussion of political issues, no matter how articulate or inarticulate the discussants may be, with adolescent gossip and backbiting. The stakes are very high this election year. The issues are extremely important. Passionate opinions are appropriate. Apathy can be lethal.
> 
> I understand many people are uncomfortable with discourse that has any element of conflict. But it's unkind and mistaken to ridicule people who care about politics. It's only necessary to stay away from any thread you dislike.


I absolutely agree that the stakes are extremely high this time around. However, I perceive from many of the posts here and in other fora that the high school level drama is being thrown out with relish and enthusiasm--some times from from both sides of any given question. The adolescent back-biting is very evident in some posts here.

Personally, I know that JHEIENS is not ridiculing anyone--if she were, it would be quite evident as she is very fluent with her native language. Nor is she apathetic about discussions of political matters. As an active participant in the local, state, and federal elections and the processes necessary to accomplishing those voting opportunities (having served a number of cycles as an election judge), JHEIENS is an active member of her local community and its processes, needs, and procedures.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Ginamarie12345 - I think you may have gotten lost in the big old Forum. I think you want to go back where it is knitting and sweetie pies. This here place is called Chit-Chat non-knitting talk. You see non-knitting means no knitting talk, something other than knitting. Do you understand dear? I hope you have a pleasant trip back to your safe place. Thanks for stop'n in and paying us a visit. Hope you don't get lost again. :thumbup:


Gina's a good lady. She meant that this is not a bitch thread


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## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

LillyK said:


> Ginamarie12345 - I think you may have gotten lost in the big old Forum. I think you want to go back where it is knitting and sweetie pies. This here place is called Chit-Chat non-knitting talk. You see non-knitting means no knitting talk, something other than knitting. Do you understand dear? I hope you have a pleasant trip back to your safe place. Thanks for stop'n in and paying us a visit. Hope you don't get lost again. :thumbup:


you ought to actually read her post


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## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

Our tax regulations are terribly cumbersome and in need of revision, but that's for another debate. While it's true in theory that rich and poor alike can claim tax breaks, the rules totally favor the rich. They also have tax lawyers on call to find every possibly loophole to avoid taxes. In order to claim the Education Credit, you have to be able to afford going to school. When you and I finished high school, it was possible to go to college without being saddled with expensive loans. Like you, I got my first B.A. with scholarships and part-time jobs. It's not like that now. Why do you put down anyone who asks if they qualify for "Unearned Income Credit"? They were obviously misinformed and hoped they might qualify for it. I certainly look for any breaks I might be eligible for when I file my taxes, don't you? And I doubt that the allure of programs helping the poor with food and rent assistance is the cause of young girls having babies. Social, economic, and emotional factors have far more influence. Lower tax rates for lower incomes do lead to more spending and thus more tax generation, but after a certain income level when income is far greater than what is spent on living expenses, etc., the money is invested, not spent, and what it earns is taxed as ordinary income. You mentioned studying history. Well, when you look it up, you'll find that tax rates were far higher when you and I stayed home with our young ones. Lucky us that one income could support a family. Most of us progressives likely aren't calling for higher corporation tax rates. Just take away the loopholes so they pay would be nice. 
As to water and oil... I'm not up on what's happening in California, but here in Colorado water distribution is controlled by historic granting of allocations with much trading back in forth among municipal, industrial, and agricultural needs. If you think there are water problems now, wait till fracking begins with its enormous water needs coupled with the ruining the water with pollutants that render it unusable forever. More oil has been drilled since Obama took office than ever. The proposed oil pipeline would cross our country and deliver oil to be processed for delivery to other countries. None of it is for the US market. These tough times for many came about because of Bush's unfunded wars, the Wall Street meltdown, shady investment banking that blew up the housing industry among other things, and the backroom deals with pharmaceuticals denying competitive bids for Medicare Part D meds. All of these happened before 2009, before Obama. You don't turn things around that fast, for one thing, but especially not with an opposing party totally committed to non-cooperation. We both want better for our country, just see different ways of getting there.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

> Now my opinion; I am a Conservative. Obama has done more to harm this country other than Presidents Wilson and FDR. Where are the permits for drilling oil? (Only on private land in North Dakota, unemployment 3%) Where is the permit for the oil pipeline? Where is the permit for the water for the California farmland? I guess a small fish is more important than our food supply. Where is permit for pumping water in (I believe in Colorado) so the crops can be watered? (the surrounding area is flooded).
> Since our Socicial Security program is going broke, why was the amount added to the fund reduced about 13%? (tax years 2011 and 2012)
> Why the support for the Occupy Wall Street? When the Occupiers' caused so much damage to private and public property.
> 
> ...


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> You wanted facts! I find this very interesting.
> 
> Whoever said that Obama hasnt acomplished anything in his first term?
> 
> ...


The Koran is a beautiful book. Don't mix up Islam with the Islam extremists. So what if he thinks it's a beautiful sound. That makes him a bad president?
So what if he golfs 90 times a year. All presidents did. One of his frequent partners is John Boehner. Many compromises happen during a nice round of golf.

This can be backed up with documentational proof and not by a conservative website? It just smells like more I hate Obama spewing, Trumpism.
You are aloud to post your opinion, but back it up. go and put this list to factcheck.org It's a non partisan site. You may be surprised by what you find.

  :-D


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> ctknoll25 I was not putting her down. The question was asked it anyone knew anyone who did not work and was expecting the government to support her.


Yes, I did ask that question of GrandmaOllie, who didn't answer. Maybe because she doesn't know any specific cases but is mostly repeating something she's heard.

Joeysomma it seems believes she has met some people who personify that perennial demon the Welfare Queen. There may well be some young girls who have babies BECAUSE then they can get governmental benefits. That is certainly the legend, oft invoked. But Joeysomma's example doesn't convince me it's very common.

Nevertheless both Joeysomma's and the answering post in the opposite vein are very welcome contributions to this thread in that they profer a rational discussion of political issues, avoid irrelevant religious quotes and vague cliches, and seem to be based on their own experience and observations rather than a stew of received opinions and parroted phrases.

It is of note how often the statement appears that Obama "has done more to wreck this country than any president since..." There seems no acknowlegment of financial industry misbehavior that is responsible for the world economic crisis that started long before Obama took office. Yes, when CEOs do not understand what their own divisions are doing, and do not wish to understand as long as profits set records, that is misbehavior.

Just to balance the claims, weren't ANY conservatives embarrassed by Bush II as president? As a progressive I disagreed with much about Reagan and Bush I and did not admire them, but the regime of the feckless Bush II and the deeply pathological Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Koch seems something any self-respecting conservative should have the grace to be embarrassed about. I believed in the Clinton presidency and what he accomplished, but yes, I acknowledge being embarrassed and bitterly disappointed about the dreadful lack of sexual discipline that weakened his political power. That doesn't make me a weak defender of my principles, it makes me a rational human being who would like to have a reasonable political conversation with people who see things differently.

Monolithic positions are just fortifications. They don't encourage dialogue or problem-solving. The gridlocked congress is monolithic. It seems the extreme right (and there doesn't seem to be any other kind of right at present), bent on getting rid of Obama at any cost to the nation because he is the Devil Incarnate and cause of every problem known to humankind -- some of which he could not possibly have caused -- has taken leave of its senses.

The country cannot move forward because the right is determined to stop every possibility of future advancement, seemingly because they hate change of all kinds and cannot accept that as time passes, society changes, priorities shift, and that sharing power with women and minorities and placing a few checks on capitalism carried to a destructive extreme, might possibly be a good thing.

And I suspect Romney's religious affiliation would be more of a problem for the right if it didn't pale in comparison to the fact that the current office holder is from an unusual background, is only half Caucasian, and doesn't have an Anglo-Saxon name.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

I said this: "Nevertheless both Joeysomma's and the answering post in the opposite vein are very welcome contributions to this thread in that they profer a rational discussion of political issues, avoid irrelevant religious quotes and vague cliches, and seem to be based on their own experience and observations rather than a stew of received opinions and parroted phrases."

That was before I saw the posting of the unsupported laundry list from a web site that seems to have been founded to prove Clinton murdered Vince Foster.

So I take it back. Looks like more of the same.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

I am interested in hearing what people have concluded based on their own thinking.


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## ginamarie12345 (Mar 13, 2012)

I can plead ignorance, as I didn't realize that this type of a chat is non-knitting talk and I commented earlier on knitting and wanting advice/tips/etc. Sorry...


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## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

MaryMargaret said:


> I said this: "Nevertheless both Joeysomma's and the answering post in the opposite vein are very welcome contributions to this thread in that they profer a rational discussion of political issues, avoid irrelevant religious quotes and vague cliches, and seem to be based on their own experience and observations rather than a stew of received opinions and parroted phrases."
> 
> That was before I saw the posting of the unsupported laundry list from a web site that seems to have been founded to prove Clinton murdered Vince Foster.
> 
> So I take it back. Looks like more of the same.


Me, too, MaryMargaret. When Joeysomma posted her list, she lost all credibility with me. I remember hearing an apt analogy about bipartisanship in today's disfunctional government . . . it's like a couple trying to make a decision about where to go for dinner. She wants Italian food and he wants Draino. You just have to shake your head, walk away, and eat alone.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> ctknoll25 I was not putting her down. The question was asked it anyone knew anyone who did not work and was expecting the government to support her.


There are people that having been raised on welfare know nothing else and since that is what they have been taught, that is what they do. I have said before I think it takes a lot of guts for a person in that situation to change things. It is not something that can happen over night. But what is the difference between that person and the rich person that has learned to work the system to get all his tax loop holes, tax cuts, hides money off shore so he doesn't have to pay taxes on it and lives so out of touch with the real world that he can't even communicate with every day people. Does it sound like I am talking about Mr. Romney? Well it didn't start out that way, but it does fit doesn't, it? Tell you what, you can have all the Romneys and I will take the welfare person over him any day. I would much more enjoy talking to a real person. That silver spoon in his mouth garbles his speech. He was on TV one day and walked into a small restaurant and asked the lady behind the counter "How's business"? She started to tell him things were kind of rough, but he just walked away. He couldn't relate to what she was saying so he just left her standing there. Do we really want that kind of person as our president. He has to be president of the whole US, not just the 1%.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

To joeysmma: Sorry I can't even read you so called impressive list. I skimmed it and you obviously don't have any proof of any of it. Sounds like the kind of reporting Fox news does. The majority of their news is half truths and things taken out of context and twisted around to make Obama look bad and then reported earth shattering news. The republicans put so much effort into destroying Obama--but just think what could happen if that amount of effort were put into working for this country and all the people in it. We could be amazing.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

joeysmma - I would like to refer you and any others in the Cafe who would like a refresher course in Civics 101 to google Government 101: How a Bill Becomes a Law If you are sincere and honest about your facts and the reliability of your sources. After you read this please come back to the forum and name the Senate bills that Harry Reid prevented from coming out of the Senate that you felt were important to you.
As a self proclaimed tax expert I would also like to know what legitimate Tax sources you used for each of your statements. If you can't prove them then say so. If you can, please share your knowledge and expertise with all of us. Looking forward to your reply. We are here to learn. Thank you.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

ginamarie12345 said:


> I can plead ignorance, as I didn't realize that this type of a chat is non-knitting talk and I commented earlier on knitting and wanting advice/tips/etc. Sorry...


No apologies necessary Ginamarie


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Northwoods Gal
> "My answer to you is this. Ask the do nothings in Congress"
> 
> The biggest "Do Nothing" is Harry Reid since he has not brought the bills from the House to the floor of the Senate for a vote.


Back it up, please. I take personal offense to that remark. Harry Reid is a very good friend of our family. Growing up in Nevada,I watched Harry go from state representative to state senator to US senator. He worked very hard for us. The only thing he wouldn't bring to the senate was the budget which had so many ridiculous add ons (pork) that it would never pass. He is not shy to compromise and I can't say that for Cantor and McConnell. They say NO to everything. "obama will be a one term president" from day 1. This is dirty Washington politics and it only hurts the citizens of this country. They don't seem to mind very much. It shows a clear picture of what they are all about and I believe it is going to come back and bite them in the arse come election time.
IMO Boehner is a puppet on a string. He has some good qualities, but he is so worried about losing the support of his party, that he can't perform the job as speaker the way he should. Nancy Pelosi makes him look like a whimp. At least she got the congress under control and got things done.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

The public schools would do the world a service if they began in elementary school, and reinforced through 12th grade, the difference between fact and opinion.

You shouldn't have to go to college to learn the difference.

Children should be taught that many problems can be solved by thinking things through, thinking for themselves, and sorting fact from opinion.

The "conservative"-industrial complex thrives on the vast numbers of people who don't know the difference between fact and opinion, have never been taught to ask for the evidence, do not know they are allowed to think for themselves, and are, generally speaking, averse to thought and inquiry in general.

Of course suppression of literacy and independent thought is now and historically has always been a mainstay of the societal institutions that seek to control populations: slaveholders, the church, monarchies, to name a few.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Northwoods Gal said:


> joeysomma said:
> 
> 
> > Northwoods Gal
> ...


Back it up, please.

Back it up, please.

Back it up, please.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

joeysomma said: Repeal of Obamacare. Do the republicans actually think President Obama would sign a bill that repealed Obamacare? First of all it would never make it through the senate and he would NEVER sign it. They know that but yet they waste their time on it. A jobs bill--well no they don't want that, because he would sign it and things might improve for the rest of us and they certainly don't want that. They are trying to make Obama fail. It just amazes me the things the republicans can find to waste their time on. I heard on the news last night that the big insurance companies will have to refund quite a chunk of money if Obamacare isn't thrown out by the supreme court. According to Obamacare, 80% of the money taken in by insurance companies must be used for healthcare. The other 20% is for profit etc. Evidently that hasn't been happening so they will have to pay it back to the businesses and people that paid in. All depends on what the supreme court does. 
They also said concerning the mandate, that it doesn't have a lot of teeth in it. It had been watered down so much that there wasn't a lot behind it to be able to enforce it. You could still be fined, but not a lot there to enforce it.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > The public schools would do the world a service if they began in elementary school, and reinforced through 12th grade, the difference between fact and opinion.
> ...


That's all fine and dandy, but we live in a constitutional republic, not a theocracy. Yes, we do have the right of religious freedom, to practice the religion of our choice. But we cannot shove the Bible down the throats of Americans who do not live by it. Religion is best left out of public schools and politics.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Northwoods Gal
> 
> my comment was that churches were the ones that started schools in the US for the purpose of reading the Bible. The Bible can be taught in schools today for the purpose of history. I do not see why people get so out of shape if the words "Bible" or "Jesus" are mentioned in a Public Building or a meeting. Unless you are a Christian they are just words.


I am Christian and have no problems saying Merry Christmas in public places. There are so may different religious groups that do not practice Christianity in this country. What about the little boy who studies the Torah, the Koran, Buddaism, etc. Why should they have to study the bible when it is not their religiuos belief? I went to a Catholic school K thru 12. But I also took an ancient history class in high school that had nothing to do with the bible. 
And then which version of the Bible would they choose? King James? the Catholic Bible? the Book of Mormon?


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Joeysmomma said:

"I do agree with you that the schools need to teach fact not opinion."

What I actually said was the schools (parents, too, of course -- if only!) should teach HOW TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE between fact and opinion, fact and fiction, fact and fantasy, fact and "received wisdom" and to EXAMINE THE EVIDENCE as a matter of course.

You also said " I'm thinking of a general education so a student knows how to think and learn on his own." Yes, I agree with that. Specific emphasis on evaluating information for its veracity and separating fact from opinion, fiction, fantasy, and frank falsehood would be a great service.

Public school is what we've got. Private schools are free to follow any agenda, from Catholic doctrine to Christian dogma to worship of Jim Jones or another self-proclaimed delusional paranoid prophet. Even non-affiliated private schools of great prestige sometimes have an agenda -- but aren't within the financial reach of the average family so scarcely count. Privately funded educational institutions have a right to teach a specific personal agenda.

One of the ways in which public education serves us well is that the community as a whole has input into what is taught. As the world changes - and it does, always has, always will, there's no stopping it -- public education can adjust to meet current needs, guided by the community as a whole, in all its diversity. I know, this is what conservatives consider "liberal creep." Progressives such as myself call it "becoming more enlightened."

I disagree with your statements about organized religion's historic contribution to human rights.

Yes, Harvard and Yale began as divinity schools. But they are not now, not in general, although each still maintains a Divinity graduate school that tends to produce religious leaders who also think, don't burn nonbelievers or uppity women at the stake for heresey and witchcraft, and, yes, some of them were ardent abolitionists. These advances toward civilization and rational discourse are a result of independent thought and the willingness to entertain new ideas that stand a chance to relieve some of the suffering and injustice of the world.

I have done my best to teach my children to think for themselves. They did learn to do it, I can see it in their adult lives now that they have matured. But it was an uphill battle against societal mores, "received wisdom", commercial TV and advertising, peer pressure, the Lippincott 2nd-grade reader that idealized whites only and males first, and, yes, even spouses who didn't share my values but wanted instead to produce clones of themselves. And thinking for themselves has sometimes put them in uncomfortable positions. So they don't always thank me for it.

The Bible as an historic document has value, as do the Koran, the teachings of Buddha and Confucius, and the Hindu legends. Christianity has made a contribution to world society through establishing compassion and the Golden Rule -- radical concepts in the ancient world -- as goals. Founders of all these religions probably meant well -- they were people who thought for themselves in opposition to the received wisdom of the societies of their time and place. It probably was not their intent to control mass populations, but rather to pose an alternative, possibly better, world view that they had developed through observation and contemplation.

It's the interpreters of these schools of thought who have co-opted what began as religious philosophy born of independent thought into a force for evil, a means of mass control, and a tool for preservation of power to the powerful. Religious interpreters generally pervert religious teachings to serve their own power and profit.

Even Lenin had a good idea. Unfortunately, some such originators of new concepts quickly descend into an "end justifies the means" mentality and attempt to "cleanse" the world of those who don't accept the new received wisdom. Communism as a concept had its day in the sun as an experiment. It proved unworkable in the real world. Capitalism as it has gradually evolved has proved more practical as a system since it is more congruent with human nature. A kind of compromise system that exists in such countries as those in Scandinavia has proved workable for some peoples in this time.

Capitalism will fail like Communism did if we worship it as a religion and allow it free rein to enslave workers, create extreme social and economic disparity, suppress free expression, and extinguish hope -- all of which, unchecked, it is capable of doing. So far it is the only system that works but that does not mean it never needs some adjustment and boundaries. If Capitalism is indeed a robust system, and I think it is, it can bear some tweaking of its operations, just like any robust system or machine. 

We've come a long way. Football games with paid athletes are better than wars or gladiatorial combat fought by slaves. Even a bribed and gridlocked Congress -- a form of rule by the rich that exists now and is the basis of the right's desperate challenge to democracy -- is better than a shared belief in the divine right of kings. One person one vote, even when abused, is a better concept than votes restricted to property owners. Even a deeply flawed democracy is better than a feudal system. Even though slavery exists, it is at least illegal most places. Widespread discrimination against women is better than women as legal chattel embedded in the law. Widespread discrimination against people of color is better than an unchallenged belief that people of color were born to serve the convenience of Caucasians.

But we've got a long way to go. If we don't move forward, we will slide backward. Just as in business and economics, there seems no such thing as a stable steady state in enlightened government and improvement of the human condition.

As you pointed out, Joeysmomma, even Texas eventually stopped teaching the Bible in school.

These thoughts are distinctly my OPINIONS. I acknowledge I could be wrong. Many will disagree with my opinions. But I believe I am right. Some may agree. Some may agree with some of my opinions and disagree with others. But I arrived at these conclusions entirely on my own through a lifetime of observation and analysis. They were not given to me by someone else, prescribed by an authority figure, or lifted from another source.

Thinking for ourselves is hard work, but history has shown that if enough ordinary people neglect this work, the cost is extremely high.


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## jheiens (Jan 20, 2011)

well said!!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

jheiens said:


> well said!!


Stand up and aplaud! Very well said


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I am finding this forum extremely interesting - (I am a Canadian) but what happens in the US definitely affects us. I hope you don't mind me posting --- but I have to say, 

Well said! Shirley


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Welcome, Shirley!


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> (.....the Bible) is still the best textbook for ancient history.


To consider the right-wing nonsense westernjournalism.com publishes a reliable source of news is as (in)credible as labeling _faux_ news "fair & balanced," however everyone is entitled to their own opinion...

On the other hand, calling the Bible "the best textbook for ancient history" is 
(let's just say I'm speechless)
kat


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I am finding this forum extremely interesting - (I am a Canadian) but what happens in the US definitely affects us. I hope you don't mind me posting --- but I have to say,
> 
> Well said! Shirley


Welcome, Shirley. What we're really discussing here can I think be considered "universal principles." So glad you find it interesting.

O, Canada!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Designer1234 said:
> 
> 
> > I am finding this forum extremely interesting - (I am a Canadian) but what happens in the US definitely affects us. I hope you don't mind me posting --- but I have to say,
> ...


Thankyou. I watched your last election with a great deal of interest and felt a great deal of hope as we are in a recession too and as I said previously, what happens in the United States has a huge effect on Canada. We have some of the the same problems here .

I have strong opinions but I don't feel that I have the right, nor should I -to jump into the fray, as they say of the political differences of another country which I admire.

We spent many winters in Arizona and only one on one would I discuss politics and only to very close friends. I was not sure that I agreed with opening this discussion on this forum - I also have visited the other forum which is in opposition, but I have changed my mind. It is so important! Shirley


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Canada and the US are and are not the same people. Each of us at least partially shares an English heritage.

As you say, what each of us does affects the other. It is marvelous we are so friendly. That would be a lot of border to defend if we were enemies!

I understand what you mean about not laying political opinions on everyone you encounter. I came into this a bit warily. But it is SO important. I thank Lilly again for having the courage to start this thread.

People with more conservative views bravely wade in here and it is very stimulating. I can imagine that more often than not they feel attacked. I am not sure what to do about it.

I don't know how others feel but I would welcome your views.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Mary Margaret -- as I stated previously, I don't want to insert myself into 
a discussion about the politics and government of another country. I would not appreciate someone doing the same if the shoe was on the other foot. 

I will say, however, that I am definitely to the left of middle -- I felt discrimination toward women during the years I worked. I felt it strongly 
in many ways over the years -- it is getting better, but we have so much further to go. I believe in women's right to make decisions about their own bodies -- 

I just typed a paragraph with my opinion of what has happened since President Obama took over - however, I have deleted it . It is not my place as someone who is not an American. Suffice to say, I am here in this forum. 

I just hope that people try to find the truth, before they vote- and not 
listen to people who have an agenda, without questioning what they are told. 


I hope that happens in my country as well. I appreciate it that I am welcome here and I will certainly keep on 'lurking' Shirley


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Brilliant Mary Margaret! As my mother used to say;"You have a brain, use it!" I wish we could all express ourselves as eloquently as you have here. I am learning so much and being so encouraged by the women on this site. Some days I get discouraged and then I read what people share here and know there is still hope if we remain vigilant and aware of what is going on around us and have the courage to put ourselves out there when we see the need to change direction or if it is more prudent to stay the course we are on. I am sitting here and cheering out loud while my poor husband looks at me once again and thinks this time she real has lost her mind!


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## tired n' cranky (Aug 2, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> joeysomma said:
> 
> 
> > MaryMargaret said:
> ...


Thank You!!!!!


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Lilly said: "I am learning so much and being so encouraged by the women on this site. Some days I get discouraged and then I read what people share here and know there is still hope if we remain vigilant and aware of what is going on around us and have the courage to put ourselves out there when we see the need to change direction or if it is more prudent to stay the course we are on."

I feel exactly the same way, Lilly. Thank you again for having the courage to start this discussion. I didn't. But am benefitting enormously from the connections...


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Shirley the "Lurker". Don't be shy. Come out and share in the dialogue. We could use a Canadian perspective and I appreciate your restraint in thinking before you posted something that you thought might offend. I value your sincere comments here and in hearing from women from other countries. As you said we have much the same concerns in our lives. I must admit I do not know as much as I should about your government but I am willing to expand my horizons. I appreciate the sacrifices your countrymen have made alongside our soldiers in numerous wars and conflicts. Canada has long been the unsung hero and I want you to know there are some of us that know of your sacrifices and how you have stood shoulder to shoulder with the U.S. in some military entanglements that were necessary and others we regreted. I have been in nearly all the Provinces and I must admit Nova Scotia and Peggy's Cove were my favorite Canadian destinations. When I meditate I go to Peggy's Cove. It is an inspirational place. Welcome, Shirley


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

"Come out and share in the dialogue. We could use a Canadian perspective """

Thank you for your invitation to join in this forum.My opinions are just my own not necessarily my Governments or other Canadians, but I do know that a lot of my friends agree with what I feel. I also know some don't although I have to admit that most of the people I have talked to have opinions much like mine. Some know nothing about your elections and they don't care -

-I just happen to believe that we are affected in a very definite way with the things that happen in the states. Also I have a large number of American friends who I 'lived' with when we were 'snowbirds' in Arizone as well as my on line American friends. I also find American Politics unbelievable, and very interesting! 

I got very caught up in the last election -- and from the first time I saw President Obama as a guest on Oprah, long before he put his name in to run, I was very very impressed with him. I still feel strongly the same way. Not because he was black -- he is a good man, a smart man and if given the chance I think he could do a good job. How do you do a good job if you walk into a situation with unbelievable problems (which, within a year you are blamed for) and 
you are not given the tools to change things?. 


We are a country with a very small population along the border, and our 
economy depends on the United States -- We don't have the same vitriolic feelings and our elections don't cause the same strong reactions as yours do. 

We are a country that is known for its quiet peacekeeping in dangerous places, through the United Nations, and a lot Americans don't know much about us. Our forces have been in afghanistan for many years -- thankfully we stayed out of viet nam and Iraq.
-------------------
I have felt, since the last election, that he walked into a situation that one person could not possibly change even if he had a huge majority in both houses (which, if I am correct, he didn't) The situation was such that it will take years to overcome the deficit caused by the war in Iraq, He was left with the problems originating from 9/11 and the war. Also the bail out of the major corporations has come back to haunt him, although I can't see what else he could do.

I watch Fox news and other right wing reporters, and the absolute rubbish they spout is unbelievable. Truth doesn't matter -- they attack and attack and who cares whether it is the truth. It amazes me that people can accept their views as truth.

He became president when Billions of dollars had been spent on the war, when major United States companies were going bankrupt - when the 
economy was going down hill, when there was loss of jobs, companies big and small going'under' . On top of that, in my opinion, he got absolutely no 
cooperations from the GOP-- they obviously were not going to help him or his government in any way. From where I sat - it was obviously because he was black -- the fact that he was intelligent, a good family man, a brilliant business man, not a breath of scandal,made no difference -- he was a threat.

It seems to me that those in the religious right are afraid, and therefore believe all the different things that are stated about him. 

You asked me for my opinion -- I am still not sure whether it is a good idea to give it, but I will, because I think if it makes one person think a bit -it might do some good. 

I am not going to get into the discussion except for this post.

I hope that you understand that I like the United states and I like the Americans on the whole -- however, I am concerned at the things that are being said, often 
without any proof, the fact that some people are accepting utter hogwash as truth because 'someone said so' is going to hurt your wonderful country 
in a way that can't be turned around. 

I sincerely hope I am wrong. 

Thanks for asking me to give you my views-- they are just my views and I 
hope I am very very wrong. Shirley


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Shirley: 

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! for your contribution. In my opinion you are absolutely 100% accurate in everything you said.

It's just wonderful to hear it from an "outside observer", a citizen of that peaceful, mild-mannered, polite, self-effacing wonderful neighboring country.

Please know that many Americans also find American politics "unbelievable"!

You are so kind to share your views despite your misgivings.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

NJG said:


> grammaollie said:
> 
> 
> > grammaollie said:
> ...


on

Questions and answers:
1. Which party has the most richest constituents:millionaires and billionaires? Democrats.

2. Which party had control of Congress and the Presidency in 2008? Democrats.

3. Which party has enlarged the wars in Afghanistan and Libya?
Democrats.

4. Which party believes they can change the social cultures that have existed in Southwest Asia for thousands of years? Democrats.

5. Which party enjoyed a plurality in Congress and thought they could win a war in Southeast Asia? Democrats.

4. What did President Obama do with his plurality in 2008? Nothing.

5. How many complete bills has Obama passed since he has been in Congress? None.

6. Who has spent 41/2 months playing golf...he has the record for presidents...100 6 hour games? Obama.

7. Who reads speeches from a teleprompter prepared by his handlers? Obama.

8. Who controls Obama? Soros and the unions.

9. Whose home city of Chicago has suffered an increase in crime?
Obama.

10. Who should tend to their knitting and leave politics to those who know what they are talking about. You.

Case closed.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

NJG said:


> grammaollie said:
> 
> 
> > grammaollie said:
> ...


on

Questions and answers:
1. Which party has the most richest constituents:millionaires and billionaires? Democrats.

2. Which party had control of Congress and the Presidency in 2008? Democrats.

3. Which party has enlarged the wars in Afghanistan and Libya?
Democrats.

4. Which party believes they can change the social cultures that have existed in Southwest Asia for thousands of years? Democrats.

5. Which party enjoyed a plurality in Congress and thought they could win a war in Southeast Asia? Democrats.

4. What did President Obama do with his campaign promises once won his plurality in 2008? Nothing.

5. How many complete bills has Obama initiated and passed since he has been in President? None.

6. Who has spent 41/2 months playing golf...he has the record for presidents...100 6 hour games? Obama.

7. Who reads speeches from a teleprompter prepared by his handlers? Obama.

8. Who controls Obama? Soros and the unions.

9. Whose home city of Chicago has suffered an increase in crime?
Obama.

10. Who should tend to their knitting and leave politics to those who know what they are talking about? You.

Case closed.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Thank you -- actually I feel relieved that I did post as I have strong feelings about it and I like the Americans, I like their loyalty to their country, I like the fact that since I was a child, America has helped milllions of people around the world. It is like we are cousins -- from different families, but basically the same
morals, ideas and hopes for our people.

At times America seems like 'big brother' to us and we sometimes wish we didn't have to depend so much on decisions made by your government, but who could have a better friend -- We are so fortunate to have a free and open border -- and we are fortunate that individually we like each other so much. 

Shirley


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Sorry, grammaollie. Case not closed. Not closed at all.

But thanks for participating.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Gramma Ollie and Joeysmomma seem to use the same source for "facts."


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Ok gramma, I'm laughing again so I am done with you.No more comments from me to you. You are getting weird and kind of off the wall again. Some of the things you say don't even make sense so I no longer will read your comments or post on your comments. It is a waste of time. I will continue to read the other comments, just not yours. Love this cafe.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

MaryMargaret who are your sources? George Soros and the Daily Kos?

How did you do on the question about the Democratic plurality that authorized the War in Southeast Asia? Do you know this war was started by a Democratic deception known as the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. It authorized operation Rolling Thunder which led to loss of millions of lives. 

The case is closed because i use numerous sources to confirm my information...
TV news tends to be the least reliable. 

Attention to detail is required! Obama promised to bring home the troops and just recently he decided to post 13,500 troops in Kuwait to cover the withdrawal
from Afghanistan.

Are you up to date on another broken promise?

NJG, stay with me if you are looking for accuracy.

MaryMargaret "get with the program." Open your mind to the truth brought by attending to detail and using a wide variety of sources.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

NJG - I'm with you I think a couple of people have sipped too much of the poison koolaid. After this post I will no longer acknowledge what they put out here.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Beam her up, Scotty


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## frankie2963 (Mar 25, 2012)

grammaollie said:


> MaryMargaret who are your sources? George Soros and the Daily Kos?
> 
> How did you do on the question about the Democratic plurality that authorized the War in Southeast Asia? Do you know this war was started by a Democratic deception known as the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. It authorized operation Rolling Thunder which led to loss of millions of lives.
> 
> ...


Grammaollie,
since I am one of those really wierd people who likes to investigate and read fact sheets and all that for myself could you please do me a favor and list your sources so that I can check the facts directly with them...A couple of things you have said I have already looked into and I agree they did happen but I would like to check out the rest...I would really like to make a fully informed decision this fall and since I am still not sure who I am gonna vote for I need to sort things out...if you don't want to list them here then please private message me with them....I am totally serious I am confused and need to figure it all out which is why you have not seen a lot of posts from me here I am reading and checking and deciding...I guess you could say I like and dislike parts of both sides of the argument and therefore am definately standing on the fence at this time.......thanx in advance for your help with getting fully informed...


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Lilly, you go girl! Will AFSME be joining the ACLU in the march? Send some photos for us! Have a great time tomorrow as well!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

joeysmma - I would like to refer you and any others in the Cafe who would like a refresher course in Civics 101 to google Government 101: How a Bill Becomes a Law If you are sincere and honest about your facts and the reliability of your sources. After you read this please come back to the forum and name the Senate bills that Harry Reid prevented from coming out of the Senate that you felt were important to you.
As a self proclaimed tax expert I would also like to know what legitimate Tax sources you used for each of your statements. If you can't prove them then say so. If you can, please share your knowledge and expertise with all of us. Looking forward to your reply. We are here to learn. Thank you.

joeysmma I acknowledge that IRS Publication #17 is a resource for filing Individual Tax Form 1040. When I reread your Items 1-5 I realized that only #1 and maybe part of #2 had anything to do with taxes. I'll trust that you may have pulled out some "real" information to support yourself there. In the middle of Item 2 you seemed to have had a meltdown and went off once again on your opinions and your diatribe went downhill from there. If you read my request in the 1st paragraph at the top of this post I asked you what Senate bills Harry Reid prevented from coming out of the Senate and you did not reply. The reason I asked you to read how a bill becomes a law was because you do not seem to grasp the process of the legislative branch and who does what if you believe Harry Reid is the problem. I will no longer dignify your posts with a reply. My opinion is that you must find us very fascinating because you just can't stay away from the cafe. You aren't persuading anyone that you have anything of value to contribute and that's strictly my opinion also.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Thank you for responding, grammaollie. Since you have addressed me directly I will try to respond to your questions and statements.

Q: MaryMargaret who are your sources? George Soros and the Daily Kos?

A: I read news from general sources such as the New York Times, CNN online, Google News, Boston Globe, local newspapers. I dont read editorials because Im not much interested in opinions. I dont watch TV news. News on Fox, ABC, NBC, and CBS are designed mostly as entertainment, in my opinion.
How does one get information from George Soros? I have only a vague idea who he is. Does he have a web site? I never heard of the Daily Kos until some e mails from them started appearing unsolicited in my mailbox. I still dont know who they are so dont put much weight in what they say. I will probably unsubscribe as I do to most unsolicited e mails.

Q: How did you do on the question about the Democratic plurality that authorized the War in Southeast Asia? Do you know this war was started by a Democratic deception known as the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. It authorized operation Rolling Thunder which led to loss of millions of lives. 

A: I didnt agree to take a questionnaire. But I will try to answer this. Im guessing you bring it up because you see the Gulf of Tonkn resolution as an action of the Democratic Party and you think I am a Democrat. It may well have been the Democrats. As I recall, Johnson, a Democrat, was president and led the Gulf of Tonkin resolution.
I had voted for Johnson since the only alternate choice was Goldwater. I feel its my duty to vote and I thought Goldwater was scarier than Johnson. Johnson had at least promoted civil rights for all.
But I wasnt a Democrat then, am not now, never have been, and dont plan to be a Democrat in the future.
Of the presidents of that era, I did not admire Johnson, did not admire Kennedy, and did not admire Nixon.
But if you abhorred the war in Vietnam then we are in agreement, because I did too. Yes our government lied to us throughout that era. Johnson did it and Nixon did it. I would say Nixon has perhaps been punished enough, but that would be disrespectful to those American soldiers and Vietnamese fighters and Vietnamese civilians who died. Johnson got punished as well. He had to give up the presidency and soon died. Like the Iraq war begun by Bush II, the Vietnam War should not have taken place.
These events were 30-40 years ago. Those politicians are dead and gone. My concern and energies now are focused on todays challenges. 
I support Obama for a second term because of who he is and what he has done and the issues he champions, not because he is a Democrat and not because he is a perfect president or flawless human being. But, unlike most presidents Ive been alive to observe, I do admire Obama. I oppose Romney because of what he has told us he plans to do. He opposes programs I support. He opposes bank regulation. His values and goals are not in sync with mine. He allowed himself to be pressured by the far right into statements I dont think even he believes. I dont want the country to go in the direction Romney says he wants to take it.

My comment about your sources and Joeymommas being alike came from their similarity in format and content. I would guess your questionnaire and list of statements, like hers, are from the western journalism site that JoeyMomma cited, the one that seems to be based on a passion to prove Bill Clinton killed Vince Foster. Maybe yours comes from someplace else. Maybe the western journalism site lifted it from yet another party. It sounds very canned. I would appreciate knowing your source.

Q: The case is closed because i use numerous sources to confirm my information...

A: How does that close the case? What case? No matter what you or anyone else reads or thinks or says, the case of our countrys future will never be closed. 

Q: You said: Who should tend to their knitting and leave politics to those who know what they are talking about? You. 

Surely you dont mean you have a right to political thought, discourse, and conclusions while the rest of us do not. You dont mean that, do you?

Q: TV news tends to be the least reliable. 
A: I agree TV news tends to be unreliable. 

Q: Attention to detail is required! 
A: Okay, Im paying attention.

Q: Obama promised to bring home the troops and just recently he decided to post 13,500 troops in Kuwait to cover the withdrawal from Afghanistan.
A: What is your point?

Q: Are you up to date on another broken promise?
A: What promise is that? Please clarify.

Q: NJG, stay with me if you are looking for accuracy.
A: Youre not saying you alone possess the truth. Are you?

Q: MaryMargaret "get with the program." 
A: What program is that youd like me to get with?
Please clarify.

Q: Open your mind to the truth brought by attending to detail and using a wide variety of sources.
A: And, again, surely youre not saying you alone can perceive The Truth? Are you?
What I presented earlier are my opinions based on events I have observed and history I have read, and they are clearly labelled as opinions. 
Help me out here. Please name the sources I should use, the ones you use, the ones you consider reliable. I would appreciate it. Maybe if I read the information you read I will develop the same opinions as you. Tell me where to go and I will check them out.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

This isn't a reply to any one of you, just a general statement.

Where is the discussion about political issues actually taking place? Political issues themselves are a bit thin on the ground. Many folks have reminded us that we all have freedom of speech, that the Non-Progressive and Progressive Chat Cafe topics are listed under General Chit-Chat, and all we have to do is ignore a topic if it doesn't interest us, and that no one has broken any KP Forum rules (yet). (Oh, yeah, and let me remind you all that the US Constitution gives both freedom OF religion but FROM religion, too.)

At the time of this post, there are a grand total of 12 pages with 166 posts under the Non-Progressive topic, and 146 posts that raise no political issues whatsoever. That's a total of 88% of the posts on the Non-Progressive topic that don't address a single policical issue. Mostly the non-progressives are going on about whether politics (and religion, too) should be discussed on the KP Forum at all, or making rude remarks about what somene else has said.

The Progressive Chat Cafe is a very busy place with a grand total of 27 pages but I got tired after reading a little over half of them (I read every other page mostly, and managed to get through 16 pages. I read 215 posts, and there were 110 posts that don't bring up any poltical issue. That's 51% of the posts I read. The Progressives are certainly spending a lot of time discussing issues, There wasn't much name-calling or rudeness, either. Also. there seemed to be more posts by people who aren't Americans which I found interesting.

I stilll think it sure would be nice if Admin deleted these topics, and changed the General Chit-Chat rules to exclude political or religious topics. And, no, I don't advocate a General Chit-Chat section here on KP that is bland or dull or limited to jokes, recipes, how many grandchildren anyone has, or who went where on their vacation. There are endless numbers of subjects to discuss other than politics or religion, some of which are quite spicy.

It's getting late and all I can say about my own beliefs is that I had to listen to my lengthy Bob Dylan plalist on my Windows Media Player plus some old-timey music about the Great Depression to do all that reading and counting.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> This isn't a reply to any one of you, just a general statement.
> 
> Where is the discussion about political issues actually taking place? Political issues themselves are a bit thin on the ground. Many folks have reminded us that we all have freedom of speech, that the Non-Progressive and Progressive Chat Cafe topics are listed under General Chit-Chat, and all we have to do is ignore a topic if it doesn't interest us, and that no one has broken any KP Forum rules (yet). (Oh, yeah, and let me remind you all that the US Constitution gives both freedom OF religion but FROM religion, too.)
> 
> ...


There is no reason for admin to delete these topics. If you don't like what you see, move on. There is an unwatch button to click on. Then you don't have to deal with it. It's all very simple.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

craftylady49 You now know how many posts there are, how many are political, how many pages there are, the percentage of this and the percentage of that. So now that you have gathered all this information, what are you going to do with it? Oh right, you don't think we should be here, but that complaint is getting very tired. We are here and it comes down to the same question. If you don't like this cafe, what are you doing here, besides the fact you talk about all the time you spent making all your calculations. No one asked you to do that and no one cares about what % of what there is. Move on.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

What I'm learning is that people have an awfully hard time keeping on-topic. I'm also learning what people think, when they bother to say so, and follow and that's why I follow both the Progressive and Non-Progressive topics. I think it's well worth my time pointing out that 88% of the Non-Progressive posts are off-topic. 51% of the Progressive Chat Cafe's posts are off-topic. Maybe my remarks will encourage everyone to stay on-topic. Try it. You might like it.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

craftylady49 said:


> What I'm learning is that people have an awfully hard time keeping on-topic. I'm also learning what people think, when they bother to say so, and follow and that's why I follow both the Progressive and Non-Progressive topics. I think it's well worth my time pointing out that 88% of the Non-Progressive posts are off-topic. 51% of the Progressive Chat Cafe's posts are off-topic. Maybe my remarks will encourage everyone to stay on-topic. Try it. You might like it.


One person's "off-topic" is another persons "relevant." You're pretty judgmental, for a Berkeley liberal.

I, too, enjoy this for learning what people think. They don't always say it directly.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Your postings, CraftyLady, for example, say quite a bit about you.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Of course my postings say a lot about me. Yes, one person's off-topic is another person's on-topic. I was careful to count the posts that were putdowns to other people's posts. I counted posts that included name-calling, rude remarks and posts that were way off-topic. What's the problem with that? Aren't you interested in the ways the Progressive Chat Cafe is being misuused as a garbage can for posts that are neither progressive nor calm. considered remarks that can be donsidered progressive? Recall th e statistics I camae up with and keep in mind that the Progressive Chat Cafe is doing a way better job of discussing


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## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

I so agree with that, MaryMargaret, and I'd go on further to say most postings on this thread reveal a lot about most of us. For sure I've gotten definite impressions about people behind the postings. Without naming names, there are a few close-minded individuals who are impervious to the truth. I notice many of them sling all kinds of arrows in hopes something hits the mark. Sadly, these are mostly unsourced, unconnected, and have a mean, baiting feeling about them. Then, there are the thoughtful, polite postings that reveal a genuine search for facts on which to base decisions. Because there are so many more of the latter (sorry, CraftyLady, I don't have the %'s), this should be a lively place to hang around the next few months, I hope the exchanges here will make more tolerable the barrage of ugly ads coming our way.


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## NanGreen (Aug 8, 2011)

I agree btibbs70. I come here for the love and laughter that exists on this site. I can be beat up and criticized in a lot of other places. 

Btibbst70: Well! If there's going to be hissin' and spittin' (DH calls it "throwin' rocks at each other", I won't stay for long! Too much of that already worldwide


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Quote joeysmama
Repeal of Obamacare
Student Loan Interest
The oil pipeline decision
these are the ones I can think of at a moment's notice. I have heard there is about 40 in total.
I forgot about the budget. They won't even write one to try to compromise with the House.

Joeysmama - As I said last night, I no longer will dignify your posts with a comment but I will give you the courtesy one last time to respond to you as it relates to a previous post you made. 
If you knew anything about what is going on in your government you would know;
1. Republicans are trying to repeal Obama Care one piece at a time. Most recently HR2 Titled Repealing the Job-Killing Health Care Law Act which was sponsored by Eric Cantor Republican form VA. It dealt with aboilishing the Independent Payment Advisory Board, I-PAB, a committee to oversee spending in the Medicare program. It died in the Senate. 
2. Student Loan Interest - I can only assume you are talking about the legislation to double the interest rate on Stafford Loans from 3.4% to 6.8% effective 7/1/2012. The Republicans blocked consideration of a Democratic bill to stop the interest rate increase and Senators are negotiating further action. The House is also considering what to do with increasing Stafford Loan interst rates.
3. Oil Pipeline Decision - The State Department has authority over the project,Keystone XL Oil Pipeline because the pipeline if built would cross an international border between Canada and the U.S.. The State Department has asked for additional time to draw a new route for the pipeline to decrease potential harm to the environment most notably ground water polution. The State Department advises the President and recommended the permit be denied for pipeline construction at this time and the President concured on 2/21/2012. Harry had absolutely nothing to do with this but if you knew what you were talking about and had bothered to do your homework you would have known that.
As for the other 37 things and the budget if you are truly interested in learning something there are many government websites that provide information on all activities that are being considered in either the House or the Senate as well as information in newspapers, magazines, radio, TV etc. My primary source was the govt. websites, just the facts on all legislation under consideration in Congress and I did use the NY Times and Mpls Star Tribune for information on the pipeline.
I will not engage with you again on anything as my opinion is you are not here to do anything but sling mud. My time is precious as is most people's and I won't waste mine on your rants again.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Of course my postings say a lot about me. Yes, one person's idea of what's off-topic is another person's idea of what's on-topic. I was careful to count the posts that were putdowns to other people's posts. I counted posts that included name-calling, rude remarks and posts that were way off-topic. What's the problem with that? Aren't you interested in the ways the Non-Progressive and Progressive Chat Cafe are being used as places for posts that are neither progressive nor calm, or places where considered remarks appear in such small numbers? Recall the statistics I came up with and keep in mind that the Progressive Chat Cafe participants are staying on-topic lots more than the Non-Progressives are.

To repeat myself for the billionth time, I am well aware that we have freedom of speech, that no one has broken any rules that govern the Forum's General Chit-Chat section, and that it is super easy to ignore any topic on the Forum. I still think that the KP Forum should rule out any discussion of politics or religion. These topics just rile up a lot of people and ultimately serve no purpose. 

I am part of the 4th generation of my family to be born and raised in Berkeley, CA. I started high school in the fall of 1964, just a couple of weeks before the Free Speech Movement broke out on the campus of the University of California at Berkeley. I witnessed all of the largest protests in the entire US against the so-called Vietnam War because I lived in Berkeley and many peaceful pro-Civil Rights demonstrations as well. I even got to watch the birth of the Black Panthers. 

In 1969 a protest started over a piece of bare ground that people from all over Berkeley turned into a lovely, little place called People's Park. There were National Guard's men, barbed wire in the most used intersections of my home town and a curfew from 7pm to 7am for a couple of weeks.The property was owned by the University and when the Board of Regents realized their empty lot had turned into a park they took steps to get rid of the park. This was mainly pushed by Ronald Regan who was Chairman of the Board of Regents, and Catherine Hearst, both of whom were well-known for their opposition to any and all protest movements on or off campus. After the ultra-violent protest ended, the University turned the place into a parking lot. No one EVER parked there. The land went back to being a weed-filled piece of nothing so people recreated a park there which still exists today. 

Berkeley was one of the places in the US where the most protests were made about civil rights and Vietnam. Unless you lived in a big city at that time, you have no idea of what violent protest are like, and what peaceful, serious protest movements can accomplish. As a pacifist, there were many protest marches and demonstrations I couldn't participate in.

My paternal grandfather and my father were both union organizers when it was dangerous to do so. My father was arrested 5 times in one day in 1947 as the strike captain of a strike to get female workers where he worked the money they were supposed to get for working on defense contracts. These women got paid 49 cents an hour when the projects specified that workers were to be paid $1 an hour. I am very proud to say that my father went right back to the picket line each time the police let him go. With the help of a few other tough people the women who had been underpaid got the money they were supposed to get. My parents met on the grave yard shift of the picket line during this particular event.

My father was also something called a "block buster" for a few years after WWII, which meant pretending African-Americans and Jews with generic last names buy homes in Berkeley neighborhoods where realty companies only sold to "white" people.

This old world is full of trials and tribulations. How about trying to help others to carry the heavy loads they must carry instead of being concerned about me? As a young woman, I had the honor of lending my bit to what is now the world-wide movement that has created and continues to create equality in all things for disabled people. I've done 50 years of some kind or other of volunteer work. What are you doing to make the world a better place?


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> Of course my postings say a lot about me. Yes, one person's off-topic is another person's on-topic. I was careful to count the posts that were putdowns to other people's posts. I counted posts that included name-calling, rude remarks and posts that were way off-topic. What's the problem with that? Aren't you interested in the ways the Progressive Chat Cafe is being misuused as a garbage can for posts that are neither progressive nor calm. considered remarks that can be donsidered progressive? Recall th e statistics I camae up with and keep in mind that the Progressive Chat Cafe is doing a way better job of discussing


 This post is incomplete. read the whole novel somewhere further on in the Chat Cafe.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Crafty Lady: 

Thank you for this last post with some of your personal story. I love it! What a distinguished family you come from, by my definition of distinguished. What a privilege to have been raised in Berkeley, an epicenter of progressive thought, and by thinking, activist parents. 

And I am thrilled to learn more about you than your feelings about the appropriateness of these political KP chats.

I know it can seem a fruitless waste of energy to engage in political exchanges when parties on both sides are unlikely to affect each others entrenched views. I seldom do it. I have been drawn into this one, though, for several reasons.

One, for the first time in my life I have time enough for it.

Two, I enjoy verbal exchange on substantial topics, whether controversial or not. Opportunities for intellectual jousting have always been rare and now are rarer still at this stage of my life.

Three, I am fortunate enough to have adequate verbal skills due to my career, and I prefer writing to talk anyway.

Four, I think it is excellent mental exercise to exchange views with people of another persuasion and do the hard work of probing my own beliefs, where they came from, and how to express and/or defend them.

Five, I am genuinely curious about the thinking of people on the right, how they arrive at their conclusions, where they get their information, what makes them receptive to right-wing concepts. I already know what my progressive friends think. To make any kind of advance in my own understanding I need to know what a broader cross-section of people think, both progressive and "non-progressive" (if that is the term they choose).

Six: This is a public forum whose members have in common only love of a craft. So it's fertile ground for learning about a cross-section of the populace in a global group not defined by education, social background, economic status, age, political beliefs, race, religion, nationality, or level of experience expressing themselves in writing.

Seven: Unlike most web sites, this is unedited, unmoderated. So you get the raw material, the real deal. No middle person has an opportunity to filter, water down, trim the discourse to their own agenda, or impose their definition of what is a valuable exchange. To use a research term, this is a primary, not a secondary source.

Eight: Maybe I am an outlier but I relish lively adversarial exchanges. This kind of learning is very exciting to me. Given the participation level, maybe I am not such an outlier after all.

Incidences of raised eyebrows, flared tempers, "off-topic" remarks, snide comment, confusing syntax, negative attitude, and misunderstandings are entirely to be expected, and contribute to the learning. Entries from people whose views are similar to mine are enjoyable and affirming. Ideas opposite to my principles challenge me to read between the lines, figure out the person's real meaning, and examine my own views and information in the light of what they have said.

For example, I really do hope grammaollie provides us with a list of her sources so I can look at them for myself, for example. It was bracing for me to have to respond to her statements and questions and I appreciate her giving me this opportunity by addressing me directly.

I feel very fortunate to experience this kind of learning experience on this site in addition to the learning experience in knitting. Both are invaluable. And imagine that -- they are free! 

I'm grateful to whoever started KP and keeps it running (and doesn't suppress free exchange of non-knitting ideas) and to Lilly for courageously starting this thread.

And I honor you, CraftyLady, for your work with the disabled and for your volunteer work. And for sharing your interesting background. I look forward to hearing more about your political views and experiences...

and those of everyone else, especially people from the right side of the political spectrum, who are very brave to wade in here where the majority of participants are progressives. They may feel attacked. But I hope they don't stop commenting.

It would be a pretty boring discussion if everybody saw things the same way.


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## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

Your personal history was interesting to me. Life certainly has a way of shaping our interpretations, doesn't it? But I don't think you have to have lived in a big city to know the difference between violent and peaceful protest movements. Granted, it isn't the same as studying it, so I don't discount your experience. Gosh, I was appalled and frightened and I was way south in Orange County at the time! Hey, we're off-topic here so let's drop this as we agree that peaceful is the way to go, okay? 
Your last sentence, "What have you done to make the world a better place" comes across as a bit hostile. Will anyone be disqualified if they don't match up? Who's the judge? Talk about off-topic.... You may think I say that because I don't measure up, but I'll risk staying off-topic long enough to tell you I protested the Vietnam War (Mothers Against the War" much to the chagrin of my WWII veteran father and Vietnam veteran husband. I worked as a counselor in Watts when I received a middle-of-the-night phone call to NOT go in to work the next day. The riots had started. I helped with Operation Babylift in 1975 when hundreds of Vietnamese orphans were airlifted into Orange County as Saigon fell. I organized events to promote the adoption of older, hard-to-place children. As a teacher in Colorado, I promoted service projects with my 5th graders... UNICEF collections every Halloween, bake sales with profits going to an Albanian project involved with nurturing "warehoused" infants who historically were left to languish in cribs with little human touch and to encourage their adoption, a new concept in the culture. I send supplies to an impoverished two-room school in rural Argentina and volunteer one day a week in my grandchildren's school in Fort Collins. Oh, and I do knit prayer shawls and baby items for a local hospital. Is that good enough? Actually, I don't mean to have that question answered because it's irrelevant to the task we face, getting the best people elected in November.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

CT Knoll:

Your posting is SO ON-TOPIC. Thank you so much for sharing.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Sorry if my question about what anyone has done to make the world a better place sounds like a criticism. I genuinely mean it as a question anyone can answer. I'm sure many of us KPers have dona a lot. Just look at the posts by people who make things for charity. I am especially touched by the posts that have to do with making bereavement clothes. I'm not sure I'd have the guts to do that


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

You have obviously done the work of about 100 people to make the world a better place. I should have posed my question a bit more positively. I admire what you've given to the world thus far and hope you have many more years to continue your efforts. I do have to say, however, that Berkeley was one of the few especially active places when it came to protesting the illegal war in Vietnam. We had years of very frequent protests, enough that it seemed endless. Berkeley is an odd sort of place. It's a town with a population of a little over 100,000 residents until the college kids go home for the summer and it is also home to an internationally renowned university. I think that falls under the category of strange bedfellows... And, no, I am not proposing that the General Chit-Chat area of our Forum be reduced to absolute blandness. There is much we all can discuss here and learn about from each other besides politics and religion.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Many have wanted "facts." Use the Internet...type in Obama 2008. You will be able to read about all the promises he made.

He won a plurality in Congress for the start of his current term as President.

How many promises were kept? None...this very easy to verify...just read it.

Here is an easy one...closing Guantanamo within his first year in office...it is still open...this 2012!

A little tougher...Applying the "sunshine policy" to all newly proposed legislation...at least 3 days from the date of completion... newly prepared legislation would be available for everyone to read.

Never happened...newly proposed legislation was written behind closed doors!

Here is another promise that even upset his "political base",
bringing home all of the troops...instead, he initially left troops in Iraq and later increased..."surge"...the number of troops in Afghanistan. Now, he is adding 13,500 in Kuwait in case Iran 
decides to take control of Iraq.

Obama promised an energy policy to control climate changes...never happened...look at the long line of cars waiting for discount prices at Grocery chain stores...all emitting carbon gasses.

Obamacare takes the "cake." It s still being written...parts are enacted...Pelosi and Reed have "excused" the businesses in their voting districts to pay for their employees' health insurance...and the "individually mandated" policy is waiting the judgment of the 
Supreme Court. Talk about messy.

The list of unkept promises continues...they are there for all to read on the Internet. 

The internet is a very easy source to use...just type in any political topic; you will find pro and con positions.

As a Gramma, I have lived through the Carter years...read up on this topic...you will see we are repeating the "disasters" of his administration.

Or, you can go back a little earlier in history...review the job LBJ did...again with a Congressional plurality...War and Riots are his legacy.

As a Senior Citizen, I owe it to you to avoid a "repeat" of those years.

It would so "pleasant" to have a political discussion without the main way liberal Democrats present their beliefs...because they lack verifying facts... "smear...name calling"...is their debating "method".

As a Senior Citizen, I owe it to you to avoid a "repeat" of those years.

See above: case closed!


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Isn't it repetitive to call capitalists greedy? You might as well call them capitalist Capitalists. Capitalists worship greed and materialism more ferverently than any religious person worships his/her gods.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

I do not agree that all capitalists are greedy. Some are, some aren't. Of the political systems with which nations have experimented, only capitalism seems to work. But any political method carried to its extremes can be harmful, including capitalism. It's been shown of late that capitalism needs some checks and balances to continue to do its job properly.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Gramma Ollie: 

While I am on the internet researching your statements would you please do me the kindness of commenting on the presidencies of George H.W. Bush, George W. Bush, and Ronald Reagan, and since you have gone back as far as LBJ, would you please also comment on the Nixon presidency?

I am interested in your take on these.

You have twice used the phrase "case closed." Would you please explain what you mean by "case closed"?

And could you please point out examples of what you consider smears or name-calling by progressives on this forum?

Thank you.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

I post this as my offering to the Capitalist conversation. I tend to agree with much of what Mr. Deresiewicz says here as I believe Capitalism has been taken to an extreme in today's world. For many people the accumulation of wealth and material goods has become the focal point of their lives. You can never have too much. We have to have instant gratification in every facet of our lives and we are teaching this to our children. I remember a quotation that says you can tell what man worships by what is the highest ediface on the horizon. It used to be places of worship. Today it is banks. 

I welcome your thoughts and ideas.

From the New York Times. 

Capitalists and Other Psychopaths
By WILLIAM DERESIEWICZ

Published: May 12, 2012 


THERE is an ongoing debate in this country about the rich: who they are, what their social role may be, whether they are good or bad. Well, consider the following. A 2010 study found that 4 percent of a sample of corporate managers met a clinical threshold for being labeled psychopaths, compared with 1 percent for the population at large. (However, the sample was not representative, as the studys authors have noted.) Another study concluded that the rich are more likely to lie, cheat and break the law. 

The only thing that puzzles me about these claims is that anyone would find them surprising. Wall Street is capitalism in its purest form, and capitalism is predicated on bad behavior. This should hardly be news. The English writer Bernard Mandeville asserted as much nearly three centuries ago in a satirical-poem-cum-philosophical-treatise called The Fable of the Bees. 

Private Vices, Publick Benefits read the books subtitle. A Machiavelli of the economic realm  a man who showed us as we are, not as we like to think we are  Mandeville argued that commercial society creates prosperity by harnessing our natural impulses: fraud, luxury and pride. By pride Mandeville meant vanity; by luxury he meant the desire for sensuous indulgence. These create demand, as every ad man knows. On the supply side, as wed say, was fraud: All Trades and Places knew some Cheat, / No Calling was without Deceit. 

In other words, Enron, BP, Goldman, Philip Morris, G.E., Merck, etc., etc. Accounting fraud, tax evasion, toxic dumping, product safety violations, bid rigging, overbilling, perjury. The Walmart bribery scandal, the News Corp. hacking scandal  just open up the business section on an average day. Shafting your workers, hurting your customers, destroying the land. Leaving the public to pick up the tab. These arent anomalies; this is how the system works: you get away with what you can and try to weasel out when you get caught. 

I always found the notion of a business school amusing. What kinds of courses do they offer? Robbing Widows and Orphans? Grinding the Faces of the Poor? Having It Both Ways? Feeding at the Public Trough? There was a documentary several years ago called The Corporation that accepted the premise that corporations are persons and then asked what kind of people they are. The answer was, precisely, psychopaths: indifferent to others, incapable of guilt, exclusively devoted to their own interests. 

There are ethical corporations, yes, and ethical businesspeople, but ethics in capitalism is purely optional, purely extrinsic. To expect morality in the market is to commit a category error. Capitalist values are antithetical to Christian ones. (How the loudest Christians in our public life can also be the most bellicose proponents of an unbridled free market is a matter for their own consciences.) Capitalist values are also antithetical to democratic ones. Like Christian ethics, the principles of republican government require us to consider the interests of others. Capitalism, which entails the single-minded pursuit of profit, would have us believe that its every man for himself. 

Theres been a lot of talk lately about job creators, a phrase begotten by Frank Luntz, the right-wing propaganda guru, on the ghost of Ayn Rand. The rich deserve our gratitude as well as everything they have, in other words, and all the rest is envy. 

First of all, if entrepreneurs are job creators, workers are wealth creators. Entrepreneurs use wealth to create jobs for workers. Workers use labor to create wealth for entrepreneurs  the excess productivity, over and above wages and other compensation, that goes to corporate profits. Its neither partys goal to benefit the other, but thats what happens nonetheless. 

Also, entrepreneurs and the rich are different and only partly overlapping categories. Most of the rich are not entrepreneurs; they are executives of established corporations, institutional managers of other kinds, the wealthiest doctors and lawyers, the most successful entertainers and athletes, people who simply inherited their money or, yes, people who work on Wall Street. 

MOST important, neither entrepreneurs nor the rich have a monopoly on brains, sweat or risk. There are scientists  and artists and scholars  who are just as smart as any entrepreneur, only they are interested in different rewards. A single mother holding down a job and putting herself through community college works just as hard as any hedge fund manager. A person who takes out a mortgage  or a student loan, or who conceives a child  on the strength of a job she knows she could lose at any moment (thanks, perhaps, to one of those job creators) assumes as much risk as someone who starts a business. 

Enormous matters of policy depend on these perceptions: what were going to tax, and how much; what were going to spend, and on whom. But while job creators may be a new term, the adulation it expresses  and the contempt that it so clearly signals  are not. Poor Americans are urged to hate themselves, Kurt Vonnegut wrote in Slaughterhouse-Five. And so, they mock themselves and glorify their betters. Our most destructive lie, he added, is that it is very easy for any American to make money. The lie goes on. The poor are lazy, stupid and evil. The rich are brilliant, courageous and good. They shower their beneficence upon the rest of us. 

Mandeville believed the individual pursuit of self-interest could redound to public benefit, but unlike Adam Smith, he didnt think it did so on its own. Smiths hand was invisible  the automatic operation of the market. Mandevilles involved the dextrous Management of a skilful Politician  in modern terms, legislation, regulation and taxation. Or as he versified it, Vice is beneficial found, / When its by Justice lopt, and bound. 


An essayist, critic and the author of A Jane Austen Education.

This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: May 20, 2012

An opinion essay on May 13 about ethics and capitalism misstated the findings of a 2010 study on psychopathy in corporations. The study found that 4 percent of a sample of 203 corporate professionals met a clinical threshold for being described as psychopaths, not that 10 percent of people who work on Wall Street are clinical psychopaths. In addition, the study, in the journal Behavioral Sciences and the Law, was not based on a representative sample; the authors of the study say that the 4 percent figure cannot be generalized to the larger population of corporate managers and executives.

A version of this op-ed appeared in print on May 13, 2012, on page SR5 of the New York edition with the headline: Capitalists And Other Psychopaths.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Craftylady49...Read about George Soros and report your findings...of special interest is his support for Obama.

A synonym for crafty is cunning...are you trying to deceive us? What else are supposed to conclude when you support of men like Soros...a major benefactor of Obama!

You and MaryMagaret appear to share deep seated beliefs..she has proclaimed herself to be another Berkley anarchist...the epicenter of progressive thought...along with the SDS, Weather Underground, Bill Ayers...Obama mentor.

You cunning has led to the connection...it all fits...thank you.

Unfortunately, many believe as you do...the only way to save America is by destroying it!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Grammaollie -- you are something! Crafty also covers people who like crafts!

Sorry Ladies, I have been reading these threads and this one took the cake.


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## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Grammaollie -- you are something! Crafty also covers people who like crafts!
> 
> Sorry Ladies, I have been reading these threads and this one took the cake.


Yes, Grammaollie has lots of cake to take  She's harmless but she doesn't really want a dialogue.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Sheri, 
Here a quote from Crafty Lady...these are Crafty's words not mine! 

Let's pass the ball to your court...what craft involves billionaires like Soros...the organizer of MOVEON. ORG. An ardent supporter of Obama...Soros ran a half page ad in the NY Times...criticizing General Petraeus...an extremely gifted graduate of West Point. He won the War in Iraq and is now the Director of the CIA.

It is not a stretch to state Soros is anti America...look it up for yourself.

CRAFTY: "Isn't it repetitive to call capitalists greedy? You might as well call them capitalist Capitalists. Capitalists worship greed and materialism more ferverently than any religious person worships his/her gods."

Again, what craft involves statements like this? 

And, since you wanted a piece of the cake...please enlightened us..and do not be shy. I was asked for references and i provided them.

Unravel the "knot"...we are waiting for your comments on the above...what are Mary and Crafty up to...supporting anti American billionires, Obama,anti Captalism, gnuine heros..GEN Petraeus and what ever else you to throw in.


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## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

Thank you, LillyK, for sharing the Deresiewicz piece (and he quoted Vonnegut . . . I love that!).

I've always said that if hard work really had anything to do with it, I know a lot of single mothers who would be millionaires by now.

The cake is a lie.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Progress Report:

I am doing as Gramma Ollie suggested and searching on "Obama 2008" "Obama 2008 campaign promises", "Presidential campaign promises," and also on political issues such as "reproductive rights", "oil subsidies", "immigration", "Guantanamo", "bank regulation". 

I am finding that from the internet it would be possible to compile a list of directly quoted statements in support of or opposition to any current political issue. 

A "fact" is a statement that is true. Not all statements, from the internet or elsewhere, are true.

So I am still hoping Gramma Ollie will provide me with specific sites that she feels are reliable and a source of statements that are true.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

grammaollie said:


> Craftylady49...Read about George Soros and report your findings...of special interest is his support for Obama.
> 
> A synonym for crafty is cunning...are you trying to deceive us? What else are supposed to conclude when you support of men like Soros...a major benefactor of Obama!
> 
> ...


GrammaOllie:

Is referring to CraftyLady as "cunning" and "trying to deceive us" a smear? I thought you were opposed to smears.

Did CraftyLady bring up the topic of George Soros? Where?

I am no more an anarchist than I am a member of the Democratic party. But yes Berkeley has historically been in the vanguard of progressive political thought in my opinion.

There's nothing any progressive has written here that indicates the writer believes the only way to save America is to destroy it.


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## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid.
~Dwight Eisenhower

And then they read Ayn Rand and glorified her ideas. The Republican Party of today has been decades in the making. Capitalism run amok is pure greed, with the power to destroy lives and property. It needs smart regulation. 

Then there are some things that shouldn't be "for profit" . . . things like healthcare, prisons, and war.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

grammaollie said:


> Sheri,
> Here a quote from Crafty Lady...these are Crafty's words not mine!
> 
> Let's pass the ball to your court...what craft involves billionaires like Soros...the organizer of MOVEON. ORG. An ardent supporter of Obama...Soros ran a half page ad in the NY Times...criticizing General Petraeus...an extremely gifted graduate of West Point. He won the War in Iraq and is now the Director of the CIA.
> ...


GrammaOllie: Please clarify.

Which of these are you saying are CraftyLady's words? Just the ones in quotes, or also the paragraph about George Soros?

Who besides yourself has brought up the topic of George Soros? I can't find another reference to him except in your posts. Is George Soros evil because he supports Obama? Are the Koch brothers evil because they support Romney?

I have not criticized General Petraeus and don't see criticism of him anywhere else on this forum.

Did we "win" the war in Iraq? How so? Who "lost"?

Who wanted "a piece of the cake"?

Who is "Sheri"?

What is "the knot"?

How do you conclude I am an anarchist?

Where are the specific web sites you feel are reliable? Saying "search the internet" is not a "reference."

CraftyLady: What are you and I up to?


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/who-won-the-iraq-war/

An article on the Iraq War in The American Conservative It surprised me.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

MaryMargaret said:


> Gramma Ollie:
> 
> While I am on the internet researching your statements would you please do me the kindness of commenting on the presidencies of George H.W. Bush, George W. Bush, and Ronald Reagan, and since you have gone back as far as LBJ, would you please also comment on the Nixon presidency?
> 
> ...


Nixon, paranoid, unstable

LBJ, responsible for the killing of 55,000 servicemen on Vietnam and totally destroying the lives of the wounded both mentally and physically. That war should never have happened.

George HW Bush, only thing I remember was he made a campaign promise, no new taxes, and then did it during his presidency. That really really made people mad. That's why he didn't get reelected. He also acted like he didn't want to get reelected.

Ronald Reagan, the best president of many decades.

GW Bush greatly reduced taxes, still using his tax schedule at least until the election is over and if Obama wins and wins the house and senate. George Bush was a very good statesman and Commander of the Armed Forces. Have mixed emotions going into Iraq, but if I had been in his shoes I'd want the people who caused so many deaths. And remember, during Clinton's presidency there many terrorists attacks on our soldiers both on land and sea. Clinton did not do any type of significant retaliation.

Clinton greatly demeaned the office, was nearly impeached, and list his license to practice law. I remember the clip, wagging his finger at the camera with the whole world watching, 'I did not have sexual relations with that woman.'. That was his demise and what he'll be remembered for.

And the other one was at his impeachment hearing, he asked what is the definition of is is. I thought that was very flippant (mild term) for the situation he was on.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

MaryMargret,

If we are to have a useful dialoque, we must reduce the number of issues we want to discuss.

Please, indicate ones you would like to start with. The definition of "fact" seems
to be a basic standard that we should all agree to. I will defer to your judgment.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

grammaollie said:


> MaryMargret,
> 
> If we are to have a useful dialoque, we must reduce the number of issues we want to discuss.
> 
> ...


A "fact" is a statement that is true. Not all statements, from the internet or elsewhere, are true.

As to number of topics, I have only asked that you clarify what you yourself have introduced.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Thank you for your comments on the remainder of the recent presidents. I asked you for them because you had commented only on recent Democratic presidents and for completeness I wanted your take on all.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Aw, come on now, grammaollie. You know as well as I do that there isn't any craft that involves any statemens like the ones anyone has made about anything here in General Chit-Chat. That's why this part of the Forum is called General Chit-Chat.

Also, you buried the quote from one of my posts in the middle of your remarks, making it easy for anyone who reads your post to think I said a bunch of what YOU said.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

MaryMargret, I'm not "cunning", I haven't made any remarks that could possibly be considered "smears", and I've never referred to George Soros. I have no idea why grammaollie thinks I've done those things.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

MaryMargaret, we're saying what we think is important to us. What bothers me at the moment is that grammaollie put a quote from one of my posts in the middle of one of hers. Now I'm worried that it looks like grammaollie's whole post was written by me.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> Sheri,
> Here a quote from Crafty Lady...these are Crafty's words not mine!
> 
> Let's pass the ball to your court...what craft involves billionaires like Soros...the organizer of MOVEON. ORG. An ardent supporter of Obama...Soros ran a half page ad in the NY Times...criticizing General Petraeus...an extremely gifted graduate of West Point. He won the War in Iraq and is now the Director of the CIA.
> ...


Grammaollie, please do me the great, good favor of never quoting me again in the middle of one of your posts because that misleads people into thinking I wrote your entire post. You and I have very different opinions and I'd rather not have mine mistaken for yours.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Progress Report:
> 
> I am doing as Gramma Ollie suggested and searching on "Obama 2008" "Obama 2008 campaign promises", "Presidential campaign promises," and also on political issues such as "reproductive rights", "oil subsidies", "immigration", "Guantanamo", "bank regulation".
> 
> ...


I agree Mary Margaret. Whatever you choose to believe can be supported on the internet, but that doesn't make it true. So many people receive political emails and think OMG, I didn't know that and forward it on as truth. I do not forward them unless I have checked them out first and most of the time it is from 2 to 6 years ago and some of the facts and names have been changed to make it relevant to today. I always send it back with a link to the facts about that particular email. These are always emails the slam that president and democrats so I think there a lot of gullible republicans out there.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

I know that. I entirely know that.


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## Betty White (Feb 14, 2011)

I have not been on this site for awhile, because it was going nowhere, with a lot of bickering. However, the latest news reports about Obama have me incensed. His latest bombshell:suspending deportation of migrants brought here illegally. And he promised to uphold our Constitution..so he goes ahead and sets an executive order.Since he is going to issue laws himself. He is clueless. This bypassing of the law has horrible consequences for unemployed Americans looking for jobs. But, anything goes when he needs the Hispanic vote.
Betty


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Betty White said:


> I have not been on this site for awhile, because it was going nowhere, with a lot of bickering. However, the latest news reports about Obama have me incensed. His latest bombshell:suspending deportation of migrants brought here illegally. And he promised to uphold our Constitution..so he goes ahead and sets an executive order.Since he is going to issue laws himself. He is clueless. This bypassing of the law has horrible consequences for unemployed Americans looking for jobs. But, anything goes when he needs the Hispanic vote.
> Betty


Every president has the right to issue executive orders. Go back and check how many were issued by Bush. Personally, I think Obama should have issued more executive orders because he got nowhere trying to work with the republicans in Comgress.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Betty White The Dream Act had passed the house and was set to pass the senate, but then the republicans decided to filibuster. Why should a senior in high school with an A+ average be deported, when they are here by no fault of their own. The republicans were in favor of this and ready to pass it, but then it had to become political just so they could stop Obama from being the one to sign the bill. They were not going to do anything in hopes that Romney would win and then they can take credit for it. How mean and spiteful republicans are. They have me incensed.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Betty White said:


> I have not been on this site for awhile, because it was going nowhere, with a lot of bickering. However, the latest news reports about Obama have me incensed. His latest bombshell:suspending deportation of migrants brought here illegally. And he promised to uphold our Constitution..so he goes ahead and sets an executive order.Since he is going to issue laws himself. He is clueless. This bypassing of the law has horrible consequences for unemployed Americans looking for jobs. But, anything goes when he needs the Hispanic vote.
> Betty


President Obama's executive order is an act of mercy for young people who have no choice about entering this country illegally rlegally for that matter.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

craftylady49 said:


> Betty White said:
> 
> 
> > I have not been on this site for awhile, because it was going nowhere, with a lot of bickering. However, the latest news reports about Obama have me incensed. His latest bombshell:suspending deportation of migrants brought here illegally. And he promised to uphold our Constitution..so he goes ahead and sets an executive order.Since he is going to issue laws himself. He is clueless. This bypassing of the law has horrible consequences for unemployed Americans looking for jobs. But, anything goes when he needs the Hispanic vote.
> ...


Indeed yes. It's an issue about which reasonable people can disagree, I suppose, but I was thrilled when Obama took this bold step.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

If anyone is concerned about how money has control of this presidential campaign here is a website you can go to to sign a petition to amend the constitution. http://movetoamend.org/amendment


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Betty White said:


> I have not been on this site for awhile, because it was going nowhere, with a lot of bickering. However, the latest news reports about Obama have me incensed. His latest bombshell:suspending deportation of migrants brought here illegally. And he promised to uphold our Constitution..so he goes ahead and sets an executive order.Since he is going to issue laws himself. He is clueless. This bypassing of the law has horrible consequences for unemployed Americans looking for jobs. But, anything goes when he needs the Hispanic vote.
> Betty


God forbid, the leader of the free world issue an executive order.
The man is a Constitutional Law graduate of Harvard. He is not clueless by any means. He is very in tuned with what is going on. I for one am happy that by doing this , he let the DO Nothing Republican Congress know that enough is enough.
As for the hispanic vote, he had no worries there. Romney already blew it.
As for illegals taking American jobs, these people have the lowliest of jobs there are. Most Americans wouldn't do the work these people do for so little money. And they are paying taxes on their income.
As for the children, it's through no fault of their own that they are here in any capacity. They have been educated here. Why send them away to apply that education in some other country? We have already invested in them.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> craftylady49 said:
> 
> 
> > Betty White said:
> ...


Me too !!!


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Betty:

This site is a free exchange of ideas. Why do you call it bickering?

And if you disrespect us as discussants, why did you come back?


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## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

Betty, if you're incensed, then it's probably because you've been watching Fox News. It's their job to get you riled up and then keep you that way . . . it's good for ratings. On the other hand, if you want information . . . if you want to know what's going on and why, I suggest you start expanding your sources and seeking different viewpoints.


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

President "W" Bush issued 290 Executive Orders while in office.
kat


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > Betty White said:
> ...


This is so sad. If people had this attitude 100 + years ago, half of us wouldn't be here. Immigrants came through Ellis Island and became naturalized citizens, but don't think for a minute that every immigrant was legal. Many families had their brothers, sisters, aunts uncles, parents, etc sail over to live with them. Many of them were never naturalized in fear of being deported back to the oppressed countries they came from.
It's the same today. Most Mexican immigrants come to this country, because there is no hope for them in Mexico. 
As for taking American jobs away, you don't mention the corporations that hire them and pay them a very low wage with no benefits, knowing that they are here illegally. More money for the corporations!
The Cubans were coming in waves to Florida, on make shift rafts to flee an oppressive government. Some never finished the journey through rough seas and lack of food and fresh water. "they sailed through storms with the clothes on their back...."
President Obama is a Constitutional Law Scholar. I doubt he forgot what is legal for him to do or not. This country was built by immigrants both legal and illegal.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Don't forget that African-American slaves were forced to put their bodies, their blood, sweat, and tears into building this country.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Craftylady, I posted about the very thing you just mentioned in the out of touch thread.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Betty White said:


> I have not been on this site for awhile, because it was going nowhere, with a lot of bickering. However, the latest news reports about Obama have me incensed. His latest bombshell:suspending deportation of migrants brought here illegally. And he promised to uphold our Constitution..so he goes ahead and sets an executive order.Since he is going to issue laws himself. He is clueless. This bypassing of the law has horrible consequences for unemployed Americans looking for jobs. But, anything goes when he needs the Hispanic vote.
> Betty


This is not the reason Americans are out of jobs. Big corporations like Bain who shut down manufacturing plants, and other businesses, and outsourced the jobs to foreign countries are to blame. People not only lost their jobs, but their pensions as well.
As far as issuing an executive order, as president it is his right to do so. As I mentioned, he already has the hispanic vote. Romney blew it.
As for being illegal, do you have the slightest clue how long it takes to get a green card? And how long after that it takes to become a citizen? There is so much buracratic red tape to go through. So, don't think all of these people are just a bunch of ******** trying to steal our jobs. They are here for the same reasons that our ancestors came here. For the hope and dream of a better life for themselves and their children.
Also, President Obama gets blamed for gas prices, jobs, a boil on someone's butt......
Put the blame where it belongs and that would be the Republican Majority Congress


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## frankie2963 (Mar 25, 2012)

Betty White said:


> I have not been on this site for awhile, because it was going nowhere, with a lot of bickering. However, the latest news reports about Obama have me incensed. His latest bombshell:suspending deportation of migrants brought here illegally. And he promised to uphold our Constitution..so he goes ahead and sets an executive order.Since he is going to issue laws himself. He is clueless. This bypassing of the law has horrible consequences for unemployed Americans looking for jobs. But, anything goes when he needs the Hispanic vote.
> Betty


My question on this issue is what happens to the children born here? Are they not citizens of this country? What will happen to them when thier parents are deported? Would you have them deported too or placed in our already too full foster care system? This is NOT an easy issue it is one requiring many special circumstances and directives to deal in a proper way with the many issues that are included in this larger one...there are children who are between the ages of 15 and 30 who were born here to illegal imigrants and they have schooled here, joined our armed forces and done all the "dirty" work that our citizens feel is below them and for a very unfair wage which they have paid taxes on...give me a break and remember where y'all came from unless you are 100% Native American Indian you are decended from Illegal imigrants...


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Craftylady, I posted about the very thing you just mentioned in the out of touch thread.


I haven't been following that thread. It's nice to find someone else who understands the huge contribution slaves made in the building of our country. They didn't have a choice, and they surely would have rather been at home working for themselves but we should still honor their contribution to this country. We are greatly in their debt.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

I had relatives come from at least four countries. Some before the civil war and some after. I know some were legal and some not. I also know they all left bad situations in the countries they came from and were hoping to have better lives here. They took whatever jobs were available and worked very hard. It was all about making it better for their chidren and grandchildren. I agree with your comments here that people coming from Mexico and Central America only want what our families wanted. The circumstances they and their children are in varies family by family and obviously there have to be some ground rules about the path to citizenship but to just send people back is not what America is all about. If someone decided to deport me where would I go? It's just as crazy to send these kids back who were born here when for all intent and purposes they are American. Spliting up families is inhumane.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

How did the parade and March go, Lilly? I am sure you must be tired. Tomorrow night in Avon at Fisher's Supper Club, Jim Graves, (Bachman's opponent) will be holding a meet n greet. I am going to try my best to make it.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Betty White said:
> 
> 
> > I have not been on this site for awhile, because it was going nowhere, with a lot of bickering. However, the latest news reports about Obama have me incensed. His latest bombshell:suspending deportation of migrants brought here illegally. And he promised to uphold our Constitution..so he goes ahead and sets an executive order.Since he is going to issue laws himself. He is clueless. This bypassing of the law has horrible consequences for unemployed Americans looking for jobs. But, anything goes when he needs the Hispanic vote.
> ...


In all due respect where is the Republican majority Congress? A full democratic Congress has been seated since 2006, Obama had a full democratic congress his first 2 years in office. He has a full democratic senate, and you still blame everyone but Obama. Obama hasn't fulfilled most of his campaign promises. People aren't stupid, you can fool some of the people some of the time, and sometimes you can fool some of the people, but you can't fool them all the time. Arizona has been granted specific rights to work pwith immigrants. They are taking the jobs of our own minorities, the immigrants will serve Obamas purpose of getting more votes.

Obama has been walking over our Constitution time after time after time.


----------



## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

craftylady49 said:


> Northwoods Gal said:
> 
> 
> > Craftylady, I posted about the very thing you just mentioned in the out of touch thread.
> ...


Thank you for saying that, Craftylady. It is seldom acknowledged.


----------



## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

LillyK said:


> I had relatives come from at least four countries. Some before the civil war and some after. I know some were legal and some not. I also know they all left bad situations in the countries they came from and were hoping to have better lives here. They took whatever jobs were available and worked very hard. It was all about making it better for their chidren and grandchildren. I agree with your comments here that people coming from Mexico and Central America only want what our families wanted. The circumstances they and their children are in varies family by family and obviously there have to be some ground rules about the path to citizenship but to just send people back is not what America is all about. If someone decided to deport me where would I go? It's just as crazy to send these kids back who were born here when for all intent and purposes they are American. Spliting up families is inhumane.


Fantastic! Wonderfullly said. And "if they send me 'back', where will I go?"
(Of course, fortunately, I have some Native American ancestry...)


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

y[/quote]

This is not the reason Americans are out of jobs. Big corporations like Bain who shut down manufacturing plants, and other businesses, and outsourced the jobs to foreign countries are to blame. 
Also, President Obama gets blamed for gas prices, jobs, a boil on someone's butt......
[/quote]

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Gas prices are falling. Will the right "blame" Obama for that?


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

This handy chart might help.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0774721.html

Congressman John Boehner (R) replaced Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi (D) as Majority Speaker. You might remember that. You can't speak for the majority unless you have the majority.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

LillyK said:


> I had relatives come from at least four countries. Some before the civil war and some after. I know some were legal and some not. I also know they all left bad situations in the countries they came from and were hoping to have better lives here. They took whatever jobs were available and worked very hard. It was all about making it better for their chidren and grandchildren. I agree with your comments here that people coming from Mexico and Central America only want what our families wanted. The circumstances they and their children are in varies family by family and obviously there have to be some ground rules about the path to citizenship but to just send people back is not what America is all about. If someone decided to deport me where would I go? It's just as crazy to send these kids back who were born here when for all intent and purposes they are American. Spliting up families is inhumane.


Law enforcement is only targeting those immigrants who are criminals.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Grammaollie said: In all due respect where is the Republican majority Congress? A full democratic Congress has been seated since 2006, Obama had a full democratic congress his first 2 years in office. He has a full democratic senate, and you still blame everyone but Obama. Obama hasn't fulfilled most of his campaign promises. People aren't stupid, you can fool some of the people some of the time, and sometimes you can fool some of the people, but you can't fool them all the time. Arizona has been granted specific rights to work pwith immigrants. They are taking the jobs of our own minorities, the immigrants will serve Obamas purpose of getting more votes.

Obama has been walking over our Constitution time after time after time.

What are you talking about? He doesn't have a full democratic anything. The republicans control the house and have done everything they can to block anything Obama wants. The democrats control the senate, but by no means is it full democratic control. Every time they try to pass something the republicans filibuster so that nothing happens. That is what happened to the Dream Act. It was passed in the house, bi-partisan, and then it would have passed in the senate, but the republicans filibustered so Obama could not take credit and be the one to sign it. They wanted to wait for their fearless leader Mitt and try to pass something then that I am sure will not be of much benefit to immigrants. They have held up everything that Obama has tried to do. The saying goes like this: You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time but you can't fool all the people all the time. I don't think Mitt really has anyone fooled, it's just that he is white so he fits the republicans plan. HOW NICE!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > I had relatives come from at least four countries. Some before the civil war and some after. I know some were legal and some not. I also know they all left bad situations in the countries they came from and were hoping to have better lives here. They took whatever jobs were available and worked very hard. It was all about making it better for their chidren and grandchildren. I agree with your comments here that people coming from Mexico and Central America only want what our families wanted. The circumstances they and their children are in varies family by family and obviously there have to be some ground rules about the path to citizenship but to just send people back is not what America is all about. If someone decided to deport me where would I go? It's just as crazy to send these kids back who were born here when for all intent and purposes they are American. Spliting up families is inhumane.
> ...


WHAT? Does a broken tail light make some one a criminal? Does the fact that someone looks like they are of Mexican heritage make then a criminal? How Nice


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

xx


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Pretty scary to think women and minorities might be gaining a molecule of say-so in this country, isn't it? Quick! Get the rich white guy back in charge, whatever the cost!!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Women have so much power in this election! After having the Fair Pay Act fillibustered in the senate, it sent a strong message to American women just what the republicans think of them.
Thinkof the women in college who face having the interest of having the interest on their student loans doubled.These ladies will be lined up at the polls this year and even some republican friends of mine said that they took the fair Pay Act Loss as a slap in the face.
Lol Mary Margaret!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> Northwoods Gal said:
> 
> 
> > Betty White said:
> ...


Where is the Republican Congress? They are in the House of Representatives. There are 242 republicans and 191 dems in the House of representatives. In the senate there are 51 Dems, 47 rep, and 2 Independants. However, Since it takes 60 votes to accomplish anything in the senate (due to the Republican use of the fillibuster to obstruct anything and everything) the Republicans are in control of the Senate as well.

Obama hasn't kept any campaign promises? Wrong AGAIN
He promised to bring our troops home from Iraq and he did.
He Swore he would get Bin Laden and he did.
He promised more affordable health care for every citizen,
that is still being determined.
Jobs? Republicans campaigned on jobs, jobs, jobs! They have produced NOT ONE bill pertaining to jobs as to date.
If he hasn't fulfilled anymore it's because the republican house won't pass a bill and the republicans in the senate will just obstruct anything that has Obamas name on it thru fillibustering you amoeba!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

I didn't know that illegals are only taking jobs away from our minorities. Does this statement sound a bit racist? Are whites too good to do illegals work or minorities work and what would that work be? Gee I lost my job too and so did my husband but not to those nasty illegals but mine went to India and my husband's went to Canada. I worked for Ceridian Corporation and my husband worked for General Mills. Big corporations cost us our jobs not an illegal. They were very good paying jobs too and we will never have jobs like that again due to our advanced ages. Hopefully, when the Indians and the Chinese start wanting better wages and benefits those jobs will come back to the U.S. again.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

OMG Rushy thinks Mitten blew it today on his response to the immigration issue.!!!!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Oh no - I'm scared of ameobas. Aren't they kind of like zombie people?


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Oh no - I'm scared of ameobas. Aren't they kind of like zombie people?


And you should be scared. They are very weird.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I am amazed that children are criminals ? Or teenagers? Hard for me to understand. From what I read, it takes less than a broken tail light in some of the border states. 

I am fortunate to live on the northern border, rather than the southern border.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I am amazed that children are criminals ? Or teenagers? Hard for me to understand. From what I read, it takes less than a broken tail light in some of the border states.
> 
> I am fortunate to live on the northern border, rather than the southern border.


It's a sad day in America if it comes to that, Designer. A very sad day...


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Oh no - I'm scared of ameobas. Aren't they kind of like zombie people?


zombie people are more intelligent


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

""""""I am amazed that children are criminals ? Or teenagers? Hard for me to understand. From what I read, it takes less than a broken tail light in some of the border states. 

I am fortunate to live on the northern border, rather than the southern border.


It's a sad day in America if it comes to that, Designer. A very sad day...""""""""
========

I agree -- don't know what the answer is,but we are all immigrants to North America except the First nations people.

I try to remember that.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

True confession - I did not march in the parade on Sunday. I was so excited to be invited I said yes before I considered my recent knee replacement might not get me the whole distance. My friends even volunteered to pull me in a wagon if they could find one big enough. That's what friends are for right? I could have been my own float! I will try again next year. They are sending me back to desk duty to work on the Vote No amendment so it's back to the phones for me.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> craftylady49 said:
> 
> 
> > Northwoods Gal said:
> ...


----------



## ginalola (Mar 31, 2011)

Whoe!!! Did somebody write " nasty illegals"??


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Harold Hamm is one of Romney's advisers. He is a billionaire drilling oil in North Dakota and Montana. He has donated lots of money to the Romney campaign. If Romney were to win who do you think would be making the decisions about regulations and taxes. Romney will owe a lot of people a lot of favors. When a government is ruled by the wealthy it is called a plutocracy. We are fast heading that way because of the supreme court decision on Citizens United. According to Senator Bernie Sanders, an Independent from Vermont, the top 1% own 40% of the wealth and the bottom 60% own 2% of the wealth and the gap is getting wider. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. He said some republicans have told him it isn't right, but they won't try to do anything about it, cause it is working for them. the name Harold Hamm sounds very familiar to me but I don't remember what else I should know about him.

I think why he sounds familiar is he donated 985,000 to Romney--then was appointed to a position in his Energy Policy Adviser Group and then donated another million, so I guess he bought his place in the group and I'm sure he will give great advice wouldn't you think.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Northwoods Gal said:
> 
> 
> > Women have so much power in this election! After having the Fair Pay Act fillibustered in the senate, it sent a strong message to American women just what the republicans think of them.
> ...


Can you back that up?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

NJG said:


> Harold Hamm is one of Romney's advisers. He is a billionaire drilling oil in North Dakota and Montana. He has donated lots of money to the Romney campaign. If Romney were to win who do you think would be making the decisions about regulations and taxes. Romney will owe a lot of people a lot of favors. When a government is ruled by the wealthy it is called a plutocracy. We are fast heading that way because of the supreme court decision on Citizens United. According to Senator Bernie Sanders, an Independent from Vermont, the top 1% own 40% of the wealth and the bottom 60% own 2% of the wealth and the gap is getting wider. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. He said some republicans have told him it isn't right, but they won't try to do anything about it, cause it is working for them. the name Harold Hamm sounds very familiar to me but I don't remember what else I should know about him.


Not so different from what happened in Wisconsin. Scott Walker's campaign was funded by the Koch brothers. He illegally called a vote to take bargaining rights away from union and state workers because he said it would help the state's budget. Busting up the unions is Walker's priority, because he is in debt to the Koch's who have a few refineries in the midwest.
The recall election even though the workers did not win, sent a message loud and clear to the country, that being that we are sick and tired of corrupt politicians. I believe Walker is facnig an indictment in the future. Thats the beauty of the first ammendment. Workers went out and protested all over Madison. Then the Occupy movement started. We will not be "ruled" by big money.
He was exposed
in a taped phone conversation with a reporter playing the role of one of the Koch's. Scott Walker will keep his campaign promises. to the Koch Brothers.
Romney will have to bend over for his big financial supporters as well... IF he wins


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> NJG said:
> 
> 
> > Harold Hamm is one of Romney's advisers. He is a billionaire drilling oil in North Dakota and Montana. He has donated lots of money to the Romney campaign. If Romney were to win who do you think would be making the decisions about regulations and taxes. Romney will owe a lot of people a lot of favors. When a government is ruled by the wealthy it is called a plutocracy. We are fast heading that way because of the supreme court decision on Citizens United. According to Senator Bernie Sanders, an Independent from Vermont, the top 1% own 40% of the wealth and the bottom 60% own 2% of the wealth and the gap is getting wider. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. He said some republicans have told him it isn't right, but they won't try to do anything about it, cause it is working for them. the name Harold Hamm sounds very familiar to me but I don't remember what else I should know about him.
> ...


And bend over he will, cause he already is.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > craftylady49 said:
> ...


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Sherry1 said:


> craftylady49 said:
> 
> 
> > MaryMargaret said:
> ...


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

So do I. I think he is handling all
of this BS from Congress with a lot of class. 
I love what the first lady has chosen for her agenda. Teaching kids how to eat in a more healthy manner and adults as well.
Obesity is a major health issue in this country. 
I have to admit that I was going to vote for Joe Biden but I'm glad they both won. I had my kids over on election nite and we were up all night waiting for the results. Then I told them that they have just witnessed a very important mark in our history.
Watching the first man walk on the moon was exciting, but this was much more profound.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> So do I. I think he is handling all
> of this BS from Congress with a lot of class.
> I love what the first lady has chosen for her agenda. Teaching kids how to eat in a more healthy manner and adults as well.
> Obesity is a major health issue in this country.
> ...


He has shown great class from the beginning. Not once has he played the race card, even though he must know what is going on. It is embarrassing to me that some of the people of this country are treating him so badly and especially the republicans in congress. I am ashamed of them, but I know they don't care.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Tomorrow or Thursday we will find out what happens with Eric Holder. On face the nation Issa admitted that no one in the White House is trying to cover up anything. That totally left egg on John Boehner's face after his speech that they had proof that there is a cover up in the White House and they will hold Holder in contempt. What a circus these republicans are hosting. 
Sad thing is, is that another black man has come under fire by republicans.

Not too long ago, the GOP was a formidable party. It is so divided now that no one knows what their plans for this country is. Tea baggers are holding Boehner ransom as is Mc Connell. Boehner is so worried about his place in his party that he is failing to do his job. He has no control over his congress.
It's too bad. He seems like a fair person, but not a person of his own. He needs to stand up against Cantor and Mc Connell and be the Speaker of the house and not just their puppet.

Romney has nothing to say is that "the president has failed to lead," but says nothing about what he is going to do for this country. He's a talking Ken doll. One day it's this, next day it's the opposite, but hasn't stood solid on issue to date.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

======Bottom line...they just can't accept that a black man is President and they will not let him succeed.======

Yes, that is about 90% of the hatred.

Because, actually, Obama is a moderate.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Romney will be the same if he should win. Someone else will make the decisions and tell him what to do, just like it was with Bush. We also find out about healthcare on Thursday. They said again tonight that the mandate has no way of being enforced. Everything that would have given authorities the power to fine someone for not having insurance and then the ability to collect that fine and see that it is paid has been taken out of the bill. There is no reason to be concerned about it at all.


----------



## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Tomorrow or Thursday we will find out what happens with Eric Holder. On face the nation Issa admitted that no one in the White House is trying to cover up anything. That totally left egg on John Boehner's face after his speech that they had proof that there is a cover up in the White House and they will hold Holder in contempt. What a circus these republicans are hosting.
> Sad thing is, is that another black man has come under fire by republicans.
> 
> Not too long ago, the GOP was a formidable party. It is so divided now that no one knows what their plans for this country is. Tea baggers are holding Boehner ransom as is Mc Connell. Boehner is so worried about his place in his party that he is failing to do his job. He has no control over his congress.
> ...


Yes, and little is said about the fact that this was started during the Bush administration. To my knowledge, no one from that time has been questioned. 
Yes again, I heard in an interview that both Bush #41 and Jeb Bush say they don't recognize the Republican Party anymore.
In the past few days I have heard that Obamacare is very similar to Romneycare in Massachusetts. I have also heard that Obama listened to Republicans and included their ideas into this plan. So it would seem that all this opposition is purely spiteful. I have not been able to fact check this yet. Maybe some of you know if this is factual.


----------



## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> NJG said:
> 
> 
> > Harold Hamm is one of Romney's advisers. He is a billionaire drilling oil in North Dakota and Montana. He has donated lots of money to the Romney campaign. If Romney were to win who do you think would be making the decisions about regulations and taxes. Romney will owe a lot of people a lot of favors. When a government is ruled by the wealthy it is called a plutocracy. We are fast heading that way because of the supreme court decision on Citizens United. According to Senator Bernie Sanders, an Independent from Vermont, the top 1% own 40% of the wealth and the bottom 60% own 2% of the wealth and the gap is getting wider. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. He said some republicans have told him it isn't right, but they won't try to do anything about it, cause it is working for them. the name Harold Hamm sounds very familiar to me but I don't remember what else I should know about him.
> ...


How well I know. I live in the epicenter of this and am a card carrying member of the Teachers Union. I spent many a cold weekend demonstrating with co-workers, family and friends. We were successful in getting the recall but lost the election due in part to money and in part to people opposing the idea of a recall. I think there is a good chance he could be indicted. He truly is a puppet of the Koch Brothers and that prank phone call made it abundantly clear. He is being groomed for the national stage. Paul Ryan, also of Wisconsin, is being vetted for VP. UGH!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Oh ladies -That would be me using the word "nasty". I do not believe illegals are nasty people I believe that they are the same as me. I only used the word because I have heard it used so many times from people who would love to deport illegals and also are not too fond of any minority groups. I sincerely apologise to you if you were offended. I did not mean to. Hope you forgive me and keep posting on this thread.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Sherry1 - You are correct about Obama's health plan borrowing from Romney's in MA. I don't know how closely they followed it but the Administration has said it was an important part of what they came up with.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> """"""I am amazed that children are criminals ? Or teenagers? Hard for me to understand. From what I read, it takes less than a broken tail light in some of the border states.
> 
> I am fortunate to live on the northern border, rather than the southern border.
> 
> ...


That is so true! :thumbup:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

[Quote from Sherry 1]
How well I know. I live in the epicenter of this and am a card carrying member of the Teachers Union. I spent many a cold weekend demonstrating with co-workers, family and friends. We were successful in getting the recall but lost the election due in part to money and in part to people opposing the idea of a recall. I think there is a good chance he could be indicted. He truly is a puppet of the Koch Brothers and that prank phone call made it abundantly clear. He is being groomed for the national stage. Paul Ryan, also of Wisconsin, is being vetted

I think Walker is as dirty as they come. And I don't believe that "outside money" should be legal in a state election. My son is a member of ASFME and I know they spent a few weekends in Madison, too. I think Wisconsin ciizens are a very strong people. Are they going to recall Scott Fitzgerald as well?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

tryalot said:


> Halleluja! now you are all together in your very own thread and, Hopefully, won't feel the need to hijack other peoples.
> This is a good thing


How Nice!


----------



## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> [Quote from Sherry 1]
> How well I know. I live in the epicenter of this and am a card carrying member of the Teachers Union. I spent many a cold weekend demonstrating with co-workers, family and friends. We were successful in getting the recall but lost the election due in part to money and in part to people opposing the idea of a recall. I think there is a good chance he could be indicted. He truly is a puppet of the Koch Brothers and that prank phone call made it abundantly clear. He is being groomed for the national stage. Paul Ryan, also of Wisconsin, is being vetted
> 
> I think Walker is as dirty as they come. And I don't believe that "outside money" should be legal in a state election. My son is a member of ASFME and I know they spent a few weekends in Madison, too. I think Wisconsin ciizens are a very strong people. Are they going to recall Scott Fitzgerald as well?


Scott Fitzgerald retained his seat in his recall election June 6th.

We did gain one seat but it is unlikely to matter. They don't convene again until the first of the year and many are up for re-election in November.

I know we appreciated all the help and support of other unions. Solidarity!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I'm amazed how the NRA has created a conspiracy theory against the White House over Fast & Furious that Obama wants to eradicate the 2nd ammendment.I think the Holder case is overkill. Boehner just said that they have no documents to prove anything. That is a flat out lie. They have over 7700 documents pertaining to this matter. Eric Holder testified 8 times for congress and there are 30 that he won't turn over, because it will be illegal for him to turn over. Grand jury testimonies, and covert operations. And by law he isn't required to hand them over. 2 Dems who live in swing states are going for the contempt charges. Selling your soul to keep your seat.
Funny, Issa won't call any of the Bush admin to testify.I think its a ploy by the NRA to gain political ground.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

I'm recruiting you ladies to join the Knit Wittys's to knit or crochet wool hats, scarves, socks and booties for soldiers in Afghanistan. Any basic patterns are acceptible. I have been active with this group for the last few years. In addition to sending Care Packages they ask for knit and crochet items to include in the packages. The bulk of their packages are sent out by Veteran's Day so the latest the troops receive them is Christmas. Please think on it. More drab colors for the guys and many of the girls prefer something brighter. I had a go around with Ms. Bydie earlier today when she saw the photo I posted on her thread of a Marine in a blue hat and she said that would so not be allowed as he would get his head blown off (my interpretation of what she posted). Such a genteel Sourthern Belle. I reminded her of the Uniform of the Day and that the blue hat was OK according to the CO but Bydie knows more than any CO and she told me so when she started calling me "Darlin". Here are a couple photos of Marines wearing the hats we sent. I'm expecting Bydie to come back with a comment that I am providing aid and comfort to the enemy.

The website is
www.operationcaregiver.org 

Mail items to:
Operation Caregiver
P.O. Box 722289
San Diego, CA 92172

NancyK :lol:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I'm in


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Thank you, Lilly K. Somehow a photograph makes it so much more alive and triggers the desire to do something for these kids.

And they are SO CUTE!

Thanks for the link. And it's good to know I could use up some of the non-camouflage wool in my stage.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> I'm in


Me too and I have a friend who may also.


----------



## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

And by the way, Lilly, thanks again for starting this thread and let me say, please keep it active. No matter how unkind it gets among some extreme participants, it is worthwhile and it is intensely reassuring to know there are progressive out there working and caring along with their knitting.

It is also revealing in terms of the depth of vitriol and self-righteousness displayed by a few, but we have to take the bitter with the sweet, and nobody ever promised progress would be easy. It never has been.

Pioneers get arrows in the back, I'm sure you've heard.


----------



## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

And, yeah, the guy in the blue hat is particularly adorable.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

It is particularly important for me to hear the good, the bad, and the ugly, because I live in the very blue state of Vermont and my kids in Massachusetts and California. It is too easy to get complacent and think everybody sees things the way we do.

I was raised in the Bible Belt and have lived in Texas and Florida (and have been a military wife!) so I know better than to think my ambience is universal, but many of my acquaintances do not.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Thank you, Lilly K. Somehow a photograph makes it so much more alive and triggers the desire to do something for these kids.
> 
> And they are SO CUTE!
> 
> Thanks for the link. And it's good to know I could use up some of the non-camouflage wool in my stage.


I have mine started! What a freat cause. Hoorah! My hubby is a marine.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Thanks ladies. I really appreciated your volunteering to make something for the troops. I know when our son was in it was pretty lonely stateside except for our Sunday afternoon family support groups. It was such a small percentage of the population that actually were active military and most people seem oblivious to what their neighbors or coworkers may be going through and it's the same today. I was lucky as my employer was so supportive and my whole department and their spouses and kids put together care packages every holiday and it meant the world to them to receive these surprises. They even had some of their children "adopt" a soldier and when these guys came back they went to say a lot of thank yous to all the kids and people who remembered them.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Just heard on the news that Issa admitted that he knew that Eric Holder had no knowledge of the gun walking sting. But he is still facing contempt of congress charges? The GOP party has gone mad! It was also stated that the black caucus will walk off the house floor when the "trial' begins. Hope it's televised. Boehnner wants to go ahead with the hearing. I almost feel sorry for him. He is so busy trying to keep his job, that he is forgetting to DO his job.
I said it once and I'll say it again. This Republican party would rather see this president fail than see America succeed.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

And remember that tomorrow is the decision on health care. I don't see why people are up in arms about it. Canada has universal health care. Maybe some of our Canadian ladies would like to comment on this?


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Amen Northwoods Gal - When they said the only thing they wanted to accomplish was to get rid of this President that's exactly what they mean't. They don't care if the country goes in the cr_pp_r and the ignoramouses on the right go right along with them like those little critters right over the edge of the cliff, blind as bats.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> And remember that tomorrow is the decision on health care. I don't see why people are up in arms about it. Canada has universal health care. Maybe some of our Canadian ladies would like to comment on this?


To the best of my knowledge this is not anything like what they have in Canada. The Obamacare has many parts to it but it is not a single payer plan with Drs. working for the government. It's more about affordable healthcare insurance, coverage of young adults on parents policies, no waiting period for pre-existing conditions and things like that. The sticking point seems to be constitutionality of everyone being required to be insured but they could rule on other parts I think. Help me out here if someone has more info on this.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Yes, I need more info on this, too! I heard that the penalty for not buying it has been taken off of the bill.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I saw something on the news today. Can't remember what channel or who said it, but here goes. There was a picture of Queen Elizabeth and the former head of the IRA shaking hands. After the terrible times in Northern Ireland, the queen took a step towards this terrorist and took his hand.
Too bad congress can't learn something from this.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Yes, I need more info on this, too! I heard that the penalty for not buying it has been taken off of the bill.


What I heard was that there were democrats too that didn't like the mandate so by the time the bill had passed the bill has no teeth in it to prosecute someone for having no insurance. They can fine them, but really won't have the authority to collect the fine or make them pay it. So in reality all the hollering from the republicans was just to scare people. So whats new?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

There was a picture of Queen Elizabeth and the former head of the IRA shaking hands. """"

She is very strong, and really cares for the British Empire -- her personal feelings are second to her love and duty to her country. 

The IRA killed her favorite uncle Lord Mountbatten who was also Prince Phillip's uncle. She has met every President since Harry Truman -- as the Queen -- and every political leader of each of the Commonwealths. Smart lady.


In reply to Northwoods gal -- 

-------------

HEALTH CARE IN CANADA -FROM A CANADIAN'S POINT OF VEW. 

As the subject of health care in Canada came up, I was approached to give my opinion of our system as a Canadian.

I don't have exact figures -- this is just our story.

Each person in each Province has Health care - ours is Alberta health care. We are covered for all surgeries, hospital visits, doctors visits-- My husband had his mitral and aortic valve replaced, was in the hospital for 45 days, had MRI's, cat scans and after his surgery he had a pacemaker inserted in his chest. We didn't pay one cent for any of this. I believe the drugs for his surgery were paid through Alberta Health care while he was in the HOspital -- I might be wrong about that.

There is no charge for Alberta health care once you have lived in this Province for 3 months. Once you are here for three months and have moved here,if you are a Canadian citizen or (I believe) ,if you have lived in Canada for a certain length of time. I am not sure about this - will find out if citizenship is a requirement) you would be registered with Alberta Health Care and Alberta Blue cross. . I think you might have had to live in Canada for a certain length of time.

We also have Alberta Blue Cross (each Province has their own insurance Plan) There are different types of plans. We have a senior Citizens plan and we pay $l00.00 per month. It covers approved ambulance, drugs, dental, eye glasses ( or a part of the cost ) it might not cover the full cost of the drugs and other payments. 
My son's company has a good insurance plan so he is not on Blue Cross.

My husband just got new Glasses after 4 years as well as an eye exam-- it didn't cost him anything. We are both on a lot of expensive drugs and we are covered for a sliding scale amount -- most around 70-80% of the costs. I get a cortizone shot in my shoulder every 3 months - (doctor's prescription) no costs.

They do not cover physio therapy - (this just changed - they used to cover it) they also don't cover chiropractic treatments).



We are responsible for the rest. We were in the armed forces and carried our Federal government insurance after he got out of the service, in l971 - we paid under 20.00 per month and hardly ever used it. Best thing we ever did. Since we are retired, it pays 80% of WHAT IS LEFT AFTER BLUE CROSS has paid. 

I got 3 drugs today which, without any insurance would have cost us about $400.00 (every 3 months) -- with both insurances we paid $27.00. 

There are some procedures that are NOT covered. There are some drugs that are Not covered but most well used drugs are covered. This has been a life saver for both of us -- he is on very expensive meds and as he has atrial fib, he has to have coumadin for the rest of his life. He is on 8 different expensive meds and I am on 5 -- so as you can see it is a pretty good system. 

This gives you an overview of our system for a couple our age. There are different levels of BLue Cross, depending on what you want to pay -- we pay for as much coverage as is available for our age group. I don't believe it is compulsory to have Blue cross but in my opinion, unless you have other insurance, it would be the most important investment after a place to live and food.

My husband looks after all this for us, and I have confirmed with him that the above is correct. 

We do not, with our health situation, go to the US. as our insurance only pays our regular scheduled amounts, and the costs in the United states are very much more than that thousands of dollars more. Snpw Birds' usually buy extra insurance, but it is getting iffy for them, as the extra insurance does not usually cover previous illnesses or problems. As a result his heart problems or results thereof would not be covered over the amount Blue cross pays.

I hope this helps you understand our medical insurance, at least for two seniors here in Canada. Shirley


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## ivyrain (Sep 23, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> This sounds like a good way to get a bunch of people to disagree with each other and end up getting into nasty fights that have nothing to do with knitting or crocheting. Maybe you could start a blog somewhere else. I wouldn't touch this proposed thread with a ten foot pole. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


I thought so also but reading now see some serious and intelligent ideas. Much thought out and no name calling.
Good Job ladies!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Much thought out and no name calling.
Good Job ladies!+++++++++++++++++++

I agree! Well thought out and very interesting.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Just an additional thought about Canada's health care system. 

The waits can be very long for surgery and there is talk about a two tier system being put in place - for those who can afford to pay for their surgeries, and wish to, 

There is a lot of discussion and a lot of people don't want the two tiers -- eg.If there is a waiting period for knee surgery of l0 months, there might be 
private practices who are paid to perform the surgieries quickly.

I believe it will come, but not for some time. Our system is overloaded and wait times are long
for elective surgery -- not life threatening surgery ,or hospital care -- they jump ahead of those in non threatening situations. Shirley


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Shirley:

Thanks much for a peek at the Canadian system.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

You are welcome-- I know that a lot of Americans mention our system. It isn't perfect, but it works much better than a lot of other systems.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

MaryMargaret said:


> Shirley:
> 
> Thanks much for a peek at the Canadian system.


You may want to take a quick look at this site.

http://michaelconnelly.jigsy.com/


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > Shirley:
> ...


Grammaollie you may want to purchase Fortune Magazine and read the article in there about Fast & Furious.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

He sounds as if he should be a contributer to Fox News.He 
takes it upon himself to make statements that are not proven and are not true. 

It is unbelievable --- He is expressing his own opinions and his quotes are 
incorrect and he draws his own conclusions. unbelievable!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer, thank you for your input on health care. Some very interesting points there. I have always thought that the Queen is a classy woman. And when I saw that picture I literally had tears in my eyes. And I just had to think, why can't our congress reach across the aisle and work together to get our country back on track.

I don't think in my heart that Obamas health care plan will pass. But there are things to be learned from our bordering nations. If it does not pass, not much will have changed. Millions will still be without health insurance.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Just an additional thought about Canada's health care system.
> 
> The waits can be very long for surgery and there is talk about a two tier system being put in place - for those who can afford to pay for their surgeries, and wish to,
> 
> ...


Thanks Shirley,
You answered the very questions I was about to ask.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Grammaollie, what does that site prove? That is only one man's opinion and rewritten to suit his beliefs. 
But God bless your heart for trying.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

NJG said:


> grammaollie said:
> 
> 
> > MaryMargaret said:
> ...


That article was only for Marymargaret!


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> He sounds as if he should be a contributer to Fox News.He
> takes it upon himself to make statements that are not proven and are not true.
> 
> It is unbelievable --- He is expressing his own opinions and his quotes are
> incorrect and he draws his own conclusions. unbelievable!


Gee, I never sent it to you, either


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

ivyrain said:


> craftylady49 said:
> 
> 
> > This sounds like a good way to get a bunch of people to disagree with each other and end up getting into nasty fights that have nothing to do with knitting or crocheting. Maybe you could start a blog somewhere else. I wouldn't touch this proposed thread with a ten foot pole. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
> ...


I lost my ten foot pole pretty quickly and have been following and posting on this thread. It seems what I was afraid would happen with this thread is happening in the Non-Progressive Chat. I look forward to seeing what's been posted every day on this thread. I sure am glad I was wrong about the Progressives' Chat Cafe.  :thumbup:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> NJG said:
> 
> 
> > grammaollie said:
> ...


Then don't post it publically. Send it in a PM if you don't want responses to it.


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## ivyrain (Sep 23, 2011)

Designer1234,
How is the healthcare program funded?


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## Tabby.Howe (Apr 22, 2012)

Okay, explained without oversimplification, and (hopefully) without sounding too biased:

What people call "Obamacare" is actually the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. However, people were calling it "Obamacare" before everyone even hammered out what it would be. It's a term mostly used by people who don't like the PPaACA, and it's become popularized in part because PPaACA is a really long and awkward name, even when you turn it into an acronym like that.

Anyway, the PPaACA made a bunch of new rules regarding health care, with the purpose of making health care more affordable for everyone. Opponents of the PPaACA, on the other hand, feel that the rules it makes take away too many freedoms and force people (both individuals and businesses) to do things they shouldn't have to.

So what does it do? Well, here is everything, in the order of when it goes into effect (because some of it happens later than other parts of it):

Already in effect:

It allows the Food and Drug Administration to approve more generic drugs (making for more competition in the market to drive down prices)

It increases the rebates on drugs people get through Medicare (so drugs cost less)

It establishes a non-profit group, that the government doesn't directly control, to study different kinds of treatments to see what works better and is the best use of money.

It makes chain restaurants like McDonalds display how many calories are in all of their foods, so people can have an easier time making choices to eat healthy.

It makes a "high-risk pool" for people with pre-existing conditions. Basically, this is a way to slowly ease into getting rid of "pre-existing conditions" altogether. For now, people who already have health issues that would be considered "pre-existing conditions" can still get insurance, but at different rates than people without them.

It renews some old policies, and calls for the appointment of various positions.

It creates a new 10% tax on indoor tanning booths.

It says that health insurance companies can no longer tell customers that they won't get any more coverage because they have hit a "lifetime limit". Basically, if someone has paid for life insurance, that company can't tell that person that he's used that insurance too much throughout his life so they won't cover him any more. They can't do this for lifetime spending, and they're limited in how much they can do this for yearly spending.

Kids can continue to be covered by their parents' health insurance until they're 26.

No more "pre-existing conditions" for kids under the age of 19.

Insurers have less ability to change the amount customers have to pay for their plans.

People in a "Medicare Gap" get a rebate to make up for the extra money they would otherwise have to spend.

Insurers can't just drop customers once they get sick.

Insurers have to tell customers what they're spending money on. (Instead of just "administrative fee", they have to be more specific).

Insurers need to have an appeals process for when they turn down a claim, so customers have some manner of recourse other than a lawsuit when they're turned down.

New ways to stop fraud are created.

Medicare extends to smaller hospitals.

Medicare patients with chronic illnesses must be monitored more thoroughly.

Reduces the costs for some companies that handle benefits for the elderly.

A new website is made to give people insurance and health information.

A credit program is made that will make it easier for business to invest in new ways to treat illness.

A limit is placed on just how much of a percentage of the money an insurer makes can be profit, to make sure they're not price-gouging customers.

A limit is placed on what type of insurance accounts can be used to pay for over-the-counter drugs without a prescription. Basically, your insurer isn't paying for the Aspirin you bought for that hangover.

Employers need to list the benefits they provided to employees on their tax forms.

8/1/2012

Any health plans sold after this date must provide preventative care (mammograms, colonoscopies, etc.) without requiring any sort of co-pay or charge.

1/1/2013

If you make over $200,000 a year, your taxes go up a tiny bit (0.9%)

1/1/2014

This is when a lot of the really big changes happen.

No more "pre-existing conditions". At all. People will be charged the same regardless of their medical history.

If you can afford insurance but do not get it, you will be charged a fee. This is the "mandate" that people are talking about. Basically, it's a trade-off for the "pre-existing conditions" bit, saying that since insurers now have to cover you regardless of what you have, you can't just wait to buy insurance until you get sick. Otherwise no one would buy insurance until they needed it. You can opt not to get insurance, but you'll have to pay the fee instead, unless of course you're not buying insurance because you just can't afford it.

Insurer's now can't do annual spending caps. Their customers can get as much health care in a given year as they need.

Make it so more poor people can get Medicare by making the low-income cut-off higher.

Small businesses get some tax credits for two years.

Businesses with over 50 employees must offer health insurance to full-time employees, or pay a penalty.

Limits how high of an annual deductible insurers can charge customers.

Cut some Medicare spending

Place a $2500 limit on tax-free spending on FSAs (accounts for medical spending). Basically, people using these accounts now have to pay taxes on any money over $2500 they put into them.

Establish health insurance exchanges and rebates for the lower-class, basically making it so poor people can get some medical coverage.

Congress and Congressional staff will only be offered the same insurance offered to people in the insurance exchanges, rather than Federal Insurance. Basically, we won't be footing their health care bills any more than any other American citizen.

A new tax on pharmaceutical companies.

A new tax on the purchase of medical devices.

A new tax on insurance companies based on their market share. Basically, the more of the market they control, the more they'll get taxed.

The amount you can deduct from your taxes for medical expenses increases.

1/1/2015

Doctors' pay will be determined by the quality of their care, not how many people they treat.

1/1/2017

If any state can come up with their own plan, one which gives citizens the same level of care at the same price as the PPaACA, they can ask the Secretary of Health and Human Resources for permission to do their plan instead of the PPaACA. So if they can get the same results without, say, the mandate, they can be allowed to do so. Vermont, for example, has expressed a desire to just go straight to single-payer (in simple terms, everyone is covered, and medical expenses are paid by taxpayers).

2018

All health care plans must now cover preventative care (not just the new ones).

A new tax on "Cadillac" health care plans (more expensive plans for rich people who want fancier coverage).

2020

The elimination of the "Medicare gap"

.

Aaaaand that's it right there.

The biggest thing opponents of the bill have against it is the mandate. They claim that it forces people to buy insurance, and forcing people to buy something in unconstitutional. Personally, I take the opposite view, as it's not telling people to buy a specific thing, just to have a specific type of thing, just like a part of the money we pay in taxes pays for the police and firemen who protect us, this would have us paying to ensure doctors can treat us for illness and injury.

Plus, as previously mentioned, it's necessary if you're doing away with "pre-existing conditions" because otherwise no one would get insurance until they needed to use it, which defeats the purpose of insurance.


I took the wording from a friend that simplified it... But all in all, I think it's a good program.


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## Tabby.Howe (Apr 22, 2012)

Oh, man, sorry, I just realized how long that post was!


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

Sorry, duplicate post.


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

Tabby,
Thanx for the great, simplified description of the Affordable Care Act; even in its compromised state, it is a good start.

If anyone is interested in the *truth* about _Fast & Furious_, here is Fortune blog; it should be mandatory reading *before anyone votes * on contempt charges against Mr. Holder.
http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/
kat


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## jheiens (Jan 20, 2011)

Don't worry about the length, Tabby; the clarity is very much appreciated.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

Thanks for the simplification and timeline.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

supreme court upheld the health care law...they are saying all of it!
The Supreme Court only changed the mandate so that it would be constitutional. Those choosing not to buy insurance will be taxed accordingly.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

It's a great day in America - Supreme Court Upholds Individual Mandate! Victory for the American People! This started off my day on the "left" foot! I'm doing my happy dance! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Congratulations!


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Wow!!! I'm happy dancing along with Lilly! Thanks for the congratuLations, Designer!

Tabby: What a service you've provided with your clear explanation. Thank you very much!

I confess I am shocked that Roberts broke the tie in this direction!!! Okay, I will reset my expectations that the Supremes maybe do not always vote politcally rather than constitutionally.

What an incredible turn of events!!! I did not expect it. Shame on me!!

Thank you, Justices Roberts, Ginsberg, Sotomayor, Kagan, and Breyer!

Oh, yeah, and thank you for pioneering this plan in Massachusetts, Mitt Romney!!!!!!!!

YEAAAAAAAAA!!!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Shirley - Let's hope this will set in motion health care for all Americans like our wise neighbors to the north in Canada already figured out many years ago.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Holy Mother Of God! It is upheld! I wasn't feeling very optimistic last night, but what a great way to wake up! 
Justice Roberts, I love you!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> ivyrain said:
> 
> 
> > craftylady49 said:
> ...


Thanks CraftyLady - You are most welcome here!


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

I feel as good as I felt when Obama won the Presidential race. :thumbup: Now we have to get him reelected. :!:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

ivyrain said:


> craftylady49 said:
> 
> 
> > This sounds like a good way to get a bunch of people to disagree with each other and end up getting into nasty fights that have nothing to do with knitting or crocheting. Maybe you could start a blog somewhere else. I wouldn't touch this proposed thread with a ten foot pole. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
> ...


Welcome - Ivyrain.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

craftylady49 said:


> I feel as good as I felt when Obama won the Presidential race. :thumbup: Now we have to get him reelected. :!:


I feel almost that good, too!!!!!!

Oh, man, did we ever need some good news!!! I think I can take a deep breath and go on now.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Kat - Thanks for the link to Fortune. I will definitely read it today.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Tabby - Thank you for your post on healthcare and welcome to the cafe. Hope you will be a regular visitor here.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Shirley - Let's hope this will set in motion health care for all Americans like our wise neighbors to the north in Canada already figured out many years ago.


Lilly, I think Hillary's plan was a single payer plan similar to Canada. We remember how she crashed and burned. I also remember people saying that Canadians waited long periods for surgery, etc. Shirley cleared that up last night thankfully. Canada has a lower infant mortality rate than the US and higher longevity I believe.
This is a big step in the right direction but health care costs need to be addressed as well. Ours our crazy.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> He sounds as if he should be a contributer to Fox News.He
> takes it upon himself to make statements that are not proven and are not true.
> 
> It is unbelievable --- He is expressing his own opinions and his quotes are
> incorrect and he draws his own conclusions. unbelievable!


I am an old Scots-Irish, descendent of the fighting Borderers. See Fischer "Albion's Seed"; Webb "Born Fighting: The Scots-Irish in America".

I have great respect for the military -- its mission and its people.

I am saddened that so much of the vitriol on this thread is from people with a military background. However, I choose to believe they do not represent the majority of people with military careers.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Surprise, surprise! And while we"re on the Supreme Court, I think Scalia should resign and run for public office. He's a politician, not a judge!


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## Silverstreak (Oct 14, 2011)

I am surprised that the court upheld the mandate, too. I live in NY and the end result of no health insurance here has been the closing of public hospitals. Many people with no or little health care insurance use the Emergency Rooms in public hospitals as their primary doctor. Of course, these hospitals can't turn away anyone and must serve the public in their service areas. When fewer people pay, these institutions rely on the state governments and Medicaid to fund the shortfalls. Many entities attempted to come up with solutions, particularly for Peninsula Hospital, which is in the Rockaways, across the water which makes it difficult to find services. Hospitals close, people are without care, leading to more people unable to manage their own wellness and therefore unable to work (see the dominoes?) I hope that the new law will help, because this will affect places with many uninsured peolle (like NY and California) for many years.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Tabby.Howe said:


> Oh, man, sorry, I just realized how long that post was!


Are you kidding? I could hug you right now! Thank you, Tabby, for taking the time to inform us here. I had it completely wrong!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Old Bachmann is out there distorting the facts and spewing the retoric again, and fearmongering as usual. Why oh why, did I get stuck with her?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Old Bachmann is out there distorting the facts and spewing the retoric again, and fearmongering as usual. Why oh why, did I get stuck with her?


I'm sorry! My sister always says how lucky she is to have missed living in Bachmann's district!


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Old Bachmann is out there distorting the facts and spewing the retoric again, and fearmongering as usual. Why oh why, did I get stuck with her?


Hey Patty,
Consider yourself lucky; you get a chance to campaign against, vote her out & elect someone who doesn't bite the hand that feeds him/her. She & hubby have _*NEVER*_ had jobs that don't rely on government to pay their salaries. If she had to feed @ the trough her Tea Baggers/Republicans envision, she'd be eating @ the neighborhood soup kitchen w/the good people of Minnesota.
kat


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

You're welcome, Nancy.
kat


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

katrinka said:


> Northwoods Gal said:
> 
> 
> > Old Bachmann is out there distorting the facts and spewing the retoric again, and fearmongering as usual. Why oh why, did I get stuck with her?
> ...


You got that right Kat! Her opponent looks a lot stronger than her opponents in the past. I think she hung herself in her presidential campaign, by campaigning in Iowa as her home state. and just her general battiness.


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## jheiens (Jan 20, 2011)

I truly did not think that Chief Justice Roberts would break his long-standing pattern of voting along the usual lines of thinking! Praise God l was so wrong! I suspect that Justice Ginsberg is correct is thinking that his opinion leaves the Act open to further unintended consequences, if the Act can be sustained. 

The campaign can now become even uglier than anticipated but at least the President will not be doubly hampered by the previous insults and aspersions so freely thrown at him and his efforts to guide this country through the mess that most of us had no part in creating. 

Now perhaps we can get down to the work of supporting his re-election.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Romney already dashed in and said, if elected, he would give the ax to "Obama Care" on his first day in office. I tend to think today's decision by the Supreme Court will increase Obama's chances to be reelected. That doesn't mean we can sit back and do nothing to support him, so roll up your sleeves and do what you can. :thumbup:


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Northwoods Gal

I know you must be really sick of Bachmann. She tried to claim Iowa as her home state, but I'm glad that didn't stick. Hopefully she will be defeated in November like she was in the republican primaries. She is an airhead and needs to stay home.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Yes Romney has big plans for his first day in office. Wonder what he thinks he can actually do in his HOME office?


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

Just saw ten seconds of Mitt's promise to repeal ACA because it's "bad law." All I could watch. Who created & signed into law the first healthcare reform bill in the US? Who's threatening to use an Executive Order the second he lands @ the White House to *REPEAL* virtually his own legislation? (G-d forbid he ever enters 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue as anything but a guest!)
That's right! The Republican candidate whose company out-sourced American jobs after bankrupting businesses & making so much money that he put his earnings in Swiss & other foreign banks to avoid paying taxes. The very forgetful vulture (eh, sorry, venture) capitalist who criticized our President for issuing an Executive Order authorizing the _Dream Act_, a policy that even the ultra-conservative elders of the Mormon Church support.
I say we send Mitt 'offshore'...with the 1% who believed in all of these ideas until President Obama was inaugurated.
kat


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Yes - It's been a great day for us with the Supreme Court decision. We can celebrate today and back to work tomorrow. There is so much more to be done. I heard Obama is going to speak later today about the ruling. Hopefully, this will give him more than a temporary bump in popularity. I couldn't believe the people being interviewed on CBS and CNN who think what happened was a terrible thing. What are they reading, watching? Are we that lazy that we can't investigate and then decide what will help us all?
As far as health care I lost my job several months ago due to outsourcing and we are paying ridiculous premiums for my COBRA coverage now. Even though I have a good education and tons of experience I have yet to find a job. My unemployment office suggested I dumb down my resume and color my hair. Sad isn't it. Husband is on Medicare and we have a supplemental for him too. I'm old enough for early Social Security this fall at age 62 but I would love to see Medicare drop to that age too. Makes no sense to me. I paid in to Medicare too when I was working. It will be great if they can keep moving the health care program forward until we are all covered. I don't know what I would have done about my knee replacement in April. I guess I would probably be stuck using a walker or wheel chair not to mention the pain and all the fun taking Oxicontin. Hubby said we got our money's worth and a lot more with hospital stay, surgery and rehab. Sorry for hoping all over in this post. Hope you can follow it all.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

craftylady49 said:


> Romney already dashed in and said, if elected, he would give the ax to "Obama Care" on his first day in office. I tend to think today's decision by the Supreme Court will increase Obama's chances to be reelected. That doesn't mean we can sit back and do nothing to support him, so roll up your sleeves and do what you can. :thumbup:


I agree this may well be a boost to the energy and morale of progressives for Obama.

He got bin Laden. He got the Dream Act. He got us out of Iraq. He's getting us out of Afghanistan. He got Affordable Health Care. All in the face of a Congress controlled by implacable haters. The guy is doing all right.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

NJG said:


> grammaollie said:
> 
> 
> > MaryMargaret said:
> ...


Old saying, believe half of what you read and nothing of what you see. 
That would fit Obama well, also be careful of what you wish for, you may get it?


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

MaryMargaret said:


> craftylady49 said:
> 
> 
> > Romney already dashed in and said, if elected, he would give the ax to "Obama Care" on his first day in office. I tend to think today's decision by the Supreme Court will increase Obama's chances to be reelected. That doesn't mean we can sit back and do nothing to support him, so roll up your sleeves and do what you can. :thumbup:
> ...


Mary Margaret? The US Navy Seals got Bin Laden. Troops were already coming out of Iraq and going into Afghanistan, you have no idea if it's affordable for everyone, Dream Act is really A Nightmare. In this world you reap what you sow. Just remember, I told you so. Oh, by the way you have no new people on these topics, just recycle the few old ones you have, should be very telling to you.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > craftylady49 said:
> ...


It's a great day for Progressives and our numbers are increasing, Grammaolie. Two most recent Ivyrain and Tabby.Howe. Our beloved President's health care plan was upheld by the Supreme Court! You go Barack. We are fired up and ready to go! How nice!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Sad day for Eric holder. Republicans have voted to hold him in contempt of congress. What a waste of time and money.
This is the worse congress in US history. There must be something we can do!!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> NJG said:
> 
> 
> > grammaollie said:
> ...


How Nice.


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## 2knotty2knit (Sep 14, 2011)

Romney supporters are all over twitter complaining about Obamacare and socialized health care. They are so angry they are going to move to Canada, LMAO, what do they think we have here in Canada? Beside we don't want them here ,we have enough crazies of our own.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

Hi,
This isn't about socialized medicine..there is a good description a couple of pages back. This has a lot o do with what insurance companies can and cannot do anymore. One is removing caps so that people with catastrophic illness will not go bankrupt. Children with pre-existing conditions will be fully covered immediately when their parents chane plans. Adult children up to age 26 will be covered on parents policy...and so on.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

2knotty2knit said:


> Romney supporters are all over twitter complaining about Obamacare and socialized health care. They are so angry they are going to move to Canada, LMAO, what do they think we have here in Canada? Beside we don't want them here ,we have enough crazies of our own.


I know...so many, dare I say, 'ill informed' people out there. It just goes to show that hatred for Obama is greater than reading about his affordable healthcare act. Let us know if the highways in Canada are clogged with Americans. LOL


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## 2knotty2knit (Sep 14, 2011)

Sherry1 said:


> Hi,
> This isn't about socialized medicine..there is a good description a couple of pages back. This has a lot o do with what insurance companies can and cannot do anymore. One is removing caps so that people with catastrophic illness will not go bankrupt. Children with pre-existing conditions will be fully covered immediately when their parents chane plans. Adult children up to age 26 will be covered on parents policy...and so on.


I am aware of the American health care and the many issues involved. Canada does have socialized health care and although our system is far from perfect we don't lose our houses or go bankrupt because we can't pay medical bills. I just thought it was funny that some people are so unhappy with Obamacare that they would move to Canada.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

The republicans in the house are going to vote next week to repeal Obamacare. They have the votes to pass it in the house, but it will die in the senate and regardless of that Obama would never sign it!!!! It is all posturing and can go nowhere, but they will continue to waste time.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I haven't noticed any crowded highways coming north so far -- will let you know if I do, grin. 

I see another Canadian on here who is interested too. I hope she will give her impressions of our health care. I found that rather interesting too. 

Our system is having problems as I mentioned in my post, as costs are going up. One thing we are finding in Alberta, there is a shortage of family doctors, and other health care workers and this causes long waits in emergency rooms etc. 

I was in emergency 2 months ago -- was home in 8 hours -- I did get excellent care but staff were very busy and not enough doctors on call to move us much faster. It didn't cost me anything. I guess you have to weigh what you get against any 
negative problems. I was put on an IV which solved the problem - the emerg was busy and two extremely serious cases came in and they were attended to immediate- doctors were called and came quickly. I think it is definitely a case of serious first - non serious second- which is fine with me. 
-----------------------------
I remember when we were in Utah, on our way south to our 
snowbird' home in Arizona about l5 years ago, and we were parked in our fifth wheel besides an American couple. My husband who is a retired paramedic was taking my blood pressure at our picnic table (I had had a minor stroke (TIA))

The lady in the site next to us who was from Utah, came over and asked him if he would take hers. It was way, way, high -- he immediately told her that she MUST visit a doctor or emergency immediately as she needed attention and would likely need more bp meds and possiblty be kept in the hospital. Her eyes filled up and she said she could not pay for the meds she already needed and took half of the number she was supposed to and that there was no way she could afford even the pills she was supposed to use.

That was when I became extremely interested in your health care system and it was when we became extremely thankful for ours. I think ours evolved over the years. Not too sure who originated it -- will look up the history of our health care and if there is interest, I will post it. We had many discussions with friends of ours from the United States and it was amazing the number of people who asked us questions.

Our system is far from perfect, and is developing problems as our population is increasing, drug costs and other medical costs are increasing, and that is why quite a few people are suggesting the two tiered system, where people who can afford it can pay for care earlier than those who can't.

You have to start somewhere -- it is a huge undertaking but it is just my opinion that if you don't start, you won't end up with a viable system that works for the majority. 

The information I have given is my own opinion and how it works for us. Other Canadians might have completely different experiences and opinions 

Shirley


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Designer 1234--Thanks for your interesting information and your insight. I feel so bad for the people in need of meds they can't afford them or any kind of medical care. Romney talks about repeal and replace, but the republicans will never let him do that. All they talk about is repeal, they have no plan on replacing anything. I wish when this all started the dems had done a better job of explaining everything. The congressmen and women went out to their districts and held meetings but every time it was on tv all they showed was the yelling from people with the wrong information, or the speaker interrupted with yelling. I just don't think the information got out there. So if you didn't actually talk to a democrat you heard things like pull the plug on grandma and death panels. Those at home heard that and believed it and passed it on. I have talked to people recently that still believed it.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

2knotty2knit said:


> Sherry1 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> ...


Yes, it's ironic and shows how uninformed they are or just plain against anything Obama does. Maybe your system isn't perfect but it is available to everyone and I understand you have a lower infant mortality rate than we do and that suggests that everyone is getting prenatal care. Yeah! One of your fellow Canadians gave us a great overview of your system and how it relates to her family. It sounds great. Sounds like Canada cares about its' citizens over corporations.

Do you know how your system handles the elderly or those with Alzheimer's?
This is of interest to me because my mother has Alzheimer's and my. Only option is private care at roughly $5,000 per month. My dad was living with her until his death in April. He suffered some dementia but not Alzheimer's. His costs were about 4/5 of hers. Needless to say this will deplete their life savings. We pay it because we should and she needs the care but I often think there should be a better way.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

grammaollie said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > craftylady49 said:
> ...


Grandma Ollie, if the time comes I will say "Grandma Ollie told me so."

In the meantime, I'm very happy today nothing and no one can prevent that.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I haven't noticed any crowded highways coming north so far -- will let you know if I do, grin.
> 
> I see another Canadian on here who is interested too. I hope she will give her impressions of our health care.
> 
> ...


What a touching story about the blood pressure. I am a firm believer in paying according to your ability but people in this country have issues with that theory because of the tax code. The very rich and corporations often pay no tax at all. I guess we would want some assurances that ALL would pay. 
I had my husband to the ER recently. We were there a long time too. We got fast attention initially but waited for test results and consults with busy Doctors. Got there about 7pm and left at 11:30. Turned out to be gall stones.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Sherry1 said:


> 2knotty2knit said:
> 
> 
> > Sherry1 said:
> ...


I also have a relative with Alzheimer's. She had some nursing home care insurance, but that is now gone so she is on medicaid. She is in a nursing home and I don't think it is a very good one. It did not get a good rating from the state, but she has to be somewhere. Her husband is too ill to care for her. They have moved her twice, the first time because she wandered outside by herself and the last time because she had become too aggressive with everyone and they wouldn't keep her. I'm sure this will only continue so what happens next time. The family doesn't have any money to assist with the finances.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

quote by Grammaollie 
"The US Navy Seals got Bin Laden. Troops were already coming out of Iraq and going into Afghanistan, you have no idea if it's affordable for everyone, Dream Act is really A Nightmare. In this world you reap what you sow. Just remember, I told you so. Oh, by the way you have no new people on these topics, just recycle the few old ones you have, should be very telling to you.[/quote]end Grammollie quote

Yes , we all know the Seals got Bin Laden because the Commander in Chief, President Obama and his military advisers and covert operators found him and ordered the Seals accordingly. Now Bush can be seen on youtube stating that he wasn't concerned about getting Bin Laden after 9/11. He went right in and bombed the bejeez out of Iraq instead. The tyrant that saddam was did not threaten the US. It was all about the oil and cronieism. Cheney was ceo of Halliburton who would be doing the rebuilding contractors over there. 
Not only did Obama get Bin Laden, but several key operators in Al Quaida. So to say that this President has done nothing is false.Today the Healthform bill passed in the Supreme Court. He passed the Dream Act that will prevent children who were brought here from deportation.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Who has the best socialized medicine? US Military...including family members. The cost for my daughter's dental braces? Zero. 

Who has those "juicy" pensions? US Military retirees. Who pays the cost?

American tax payers...and the cost has just gone up.


Very nice.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Gammaollie--The US Navy Seals got Bin Laden. Troops were already coming out of Iraq and going into Afghanistan, you have no idea if it's affordable for everyone, Dream Act is really A Nightmare. In this world you reap what you sow. Just remember, I told you so. Oh, by the way you have no new people on these topics, just recycle the few old ones you have, should be very telling to you.

The Navy Seals got Bin Laden but only after Obama gave the go ahead with the mission. Some of the other people advised against it, but he knew the decision was his and his alone so he made it. If you had watched what was on TV pertaining to this, you would have seen the kind of decision this was to make. It was a very difficult decision to make. The Dream Act had bi partisan approval and would have passed and been signed, but at the last minute the republicans didn't want Obama to be able to get the credit for passing the bill so the republican senators filibustered. Pretty childish I think, and no it was not a nightmare.


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## tired n' cranky (Aug 2, 2011)

Oh, happy day! All of the governors who refused federal funds to help set up the insurance for their states are now scrambling. Good luck explaining your way out of this one!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

tired n' cranky said:


> Oh, happy day! All of the governors who refused federal funds to help set up the insurance for their states are now scrambling. Good luck explaining your way out of this one!


That is awesome.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Do you know how your system handles the elderly or those with Alzheimer's?
This is of interest to me because my mother has Alzheimer's and my. Only option is private care at roughly $5,000 per month. My dad was living with her until his death in April. He suffered some dementia but not Alzheimer's. His costs were about 4/5 of hers. Needless to say this will deplete their life savings. We pay it because we should and she needs the care but I often think there should be a better way.[/quote]
------------
It is interesting that you asked that as 6 monlths ago we found out my sister has alzheimers and she and her now deceased husband kept it a secret from the family. He helped her a great deal.

We are just starting the alzheimers journey . luckily she is able to afford to live in a 'retirement home' which has medical staff on hand, supplies all meals etc. It has been figured out that she will have enough for 4 years where she is at (this is above what most people can pay in my opinion) and I have no idea after that. She will likely not be aware of what is happening by that time. It is pretty fancy and she could decide to use one room and I think a large portion of that is covered. All her medicines and doctors costs are covered as she still has Blue Cross and Health care.

I believe that there is a base cost in this case that the health care covers - anything above that is covered by the patient or their family. Her family has decided on the larger suite with a living room, bedroom, bath and small kitchen with no stove or microwave. This is very expensive. There is only one such suite in the residence she is living in. Personally, I don't think she will even be aware of what number of rooms she has in a very short while --but it is a relief that she is getting the care she can afford.

I know that some of our hospitals and care centers have alzheimers floors but usually they are for advanced alzheimers and dimentia. Some of our nursing homes are able to look after dimentia patients as well. I believe (I have not checked this out) that our system looks after them too. They would likely apply their old age benefits to the cost, and it is possible that they have to declare their private pension amount (that is not a KNOWN FACT- it is a possibility). I will try to find out for sure.

I have not heard of anyone who is not covered. I know our 
hospice hospitals don't turn anyone away. Each Canadian gets an old Age Pension and that would likely be applied to the care- 
As far as pensions etc. I would imagine if money is available it would have to be applied to the cost of care. (I am not absolutely sure about this and will check it out.)

Shirley


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## 2knotty2knit (Sep 14, 2011)

Sherry1 said:


> 2knotty2knit said:
> 
> 
> > Sherry1 said:
> ...


My daughter works in a care home for seniors, she works in the Alzheimer/Dementia wing. As far as I know everything is covered under our medical system. She is part of a team that cares for a certain # of patients on alternate shifts. Our government is trying to privatize some medical services. Privatization meaning efficiency, but it only means some corporation somewhere makes huge profits.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> Sherry1 said:
> 
> 
> > 2knotty2knit said:
> ...


Yes, it seems like the homes that accept Medicaid are often near the bottom rung. You can help by calling Hospice. They will evaluate her needs, get her certified and make sure she gets the meds she needs to keep her calmer. There are several good behavioral meds available. If ordered by Hospice, the meds will be covered by Medicare with a small co-pay. She will most likely also get personal care assistance from them as well. It is shocking that a nursing home asked her to move without first looking further into meds.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Sherry1 said:


> NJG said:
> 
> 
> > Sherry1 said:
> ...


They did look into meds and said in order to give her more for her aggression they had to decrease what she was getting for the Alzheimer's. She was terribly upset when she moved, cause she doesn't understand what was going on. I don't believe Hospice has been involved yet so I will suggest that to her daughter.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

2knotty2knit said:


> Sherry1 said:
> 
> 
> > 2knotty2knit said:
> ...


Bravo for your daughter. It is a daunting task to care for these patients.
I visit my mom nearly every morning for coffee. I marvel at the wonderful care she gets. She lives in a 16 bed facility so it is not overwhelming to her or staff. I lose a little more of her each day.
What a compassionate daughter you have!


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

NYG...You must be a military expert. Just a few questions...as you know...
US Navy would give themselves options....you must know there were three complete Seal teams...numbers 4, 6, and 8... orbiting over the bin Laden compound...wiaiting for Obama to make a decision...not on which team to use...but should he use his wedge or a nine iron into the 11th green.

After, the raid was successful. a Navy cameraman took a picture of those in the situation room...you surely must recall this momentous photo...the skinny man with the big ears in the back of the room with his 9 iron in his hand was Obama...he had made his decision and used the nine iron.

Please take a moment to remember which seal team was used? My grandson would like to know. With your detailed knowledge on this mission, which of his military aides voiced their opinion not to go! 

Thank you for your help....very nice!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> NYG...You must be a military expert. Just a few questions...as you know...
> US Navy would give themselves options....you must know there were three complete Seal teams...numbers 4, 6, and 8... orbiting over the bin Laden compound...wiaiting for Obama to make a decision...not on which team to use...but should he use his wedge or a nine iron into the 11th green.
> 
> After, the raid was successful. a Navy cameraman took a picture of those in the situation room...you surely must recall this momentous photo...the skinny man with the big ears in the back of the room with his 9 iron in his hand was Obama...he had made his decision and used the nine iron.
> ...


How Nice! Put both oars back in the water Gramma. You're loosing it again.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

.waiting for Obama to make a decision...not on which team to use...but should he use his wedge or a nine iron into the 11th green." 

He had some wonderful, Brave Americans in his thoughts - and made the difficult decision to send them in.
Americans, Canadians, and many other people were so glad he had the courage to find bin laden and to do what was necessary in the eyes of the thinking world.

I am appalled at your post -- the 'skinny man with big ears" Were you there? have you ever met him? Have you closed your mind to him from the minute he decided to run? yes -- why? because of his race? or is it because of the lies you believe without reason, except that you follow those who HATE this well educated, smart, brilliant man who loves his country and inherited a war, that was unecessary, an economy that was going down hill because of the cost of that war and big business that could not bear having him in office. 

He had to make a momentous decision which would have cost lives - and he made it with courage. He didn't lose his temper and start a war that cost your wonderful country billions of dollars, and killed thousands of your fine young men. 

you are talking about your President! I always admired the American way, where the President and the Flag were treated with utmost respect by EVERYONE regardless of their politics.
It is what the other countries of the world admire most about the US -- their patriotism. I see none from you on this forum nor do I see patriotism from the people who are out to ruin him.
Such a shame.

I bite my tongue every time you post! Your country is in dire straits if people who think like you take over your beautiful country. I find I am posting more and more -- I admire the people who started this thread for using restraint at your outbursts because they are passionate about the truth. 

PLEASE -- think about what you are posting - and TRY to 
look for the truth. 

I apologize to this group if I am out of line -- but maybe someone from outside should answer the nastiness. It is such a wonderful country and we watch this from the sidelines -- and it is so sad. The world is watching --- and I hate what we are watching!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Thank you Designer 1234. You are a welcome addition to this forum.


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## jheiens (Jan 20, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> Who has the best socialized medicine? US Military...including family members. The cost for my daughter's dental braces? Zero.
> 
> Who has those "juicy" pensions? US Military retirees. Who pays the cost?
> 
> ...


I don't believe this post is going to sit very well with the poster who has made so much derision about posters from outside her circle of military and former military members. She seems to be under the impression that who served or had family members who served must all agree with her opinions on the rest of the country. However, grammaollie just ''blew'' that concept.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

just as I expected...the "bogus" factor is running very high among the military "wannabes" 

The President...the Commander in Chief delegated this decision...that is why there is a chain of command...running from POTUS to an admiral or general who was authorized to make this decision.

No I was not there, like most our nation, we saw the official photo that was released by the WH.

Yes, POTUS, was playing golf...why not? He selected his chain of command...he gave them their mission...and trusts them to follow his orders.

This is the absolute truth!

It is very predictable...when liberals do not have valid information... Name calling...smear tactics are always the result....race calling is always there...
You are the racist...you are the one telling lies...you are the one spreading hate.

This proves my point beyond a shadow of a doubt.

if you know so much...we are waiting...tell the details about the raid by Seal
team 6!

How was the decision made which team to use.

Look around and what do you see...sand...you missed the green and that you were being set up for a trap.

It was too easy...to reveals what is in your head.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> NYG...You must be a military expert. Just a few questions...as you know...
> US Navy would give themselves options....you must know there were three complete Seal teams...numbers 4, 6, and 8... orbiting over the bin Laden compound...wiaiting for Obama to make a decision...not on which team to use...but should he use his wedge or a nine iron into the 11th green.
> 
> After, the raid was successful. a Navy cameraman took a picture of those in the situation room...you surely must recall this momentous photo...the skinny man with the big ears in the back of the room with his 9 iron in his hand was Obama...he had made his decision and used the nine iron.
> ...


Welcome back, grammaollie. Words fail me when I try to say how much your posts have meant to me. Today, you have my admiration because you seem to have forgotten that the President is the Commander in Chief of all the branches of the US military. And now I know that those who serve our country are getting rich. I've only known the ones who were dirt poor. On what planet did you study US history? Must be the one that is far away and long ago. If you feel the urge to quote this post of mine, please don't bury it in the middle of your own.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

grammaollie said:


> NYG...You must be a military expert. Just a few questions...as you know...
> US Navy would give themselves options....you must know there were three complete Seal teams...numbers 4, 6, and 8... orbiting over the bin Laden compound...wiaiting for Obama to make a decision...not on which team to use...but should he use his wedge or a nine iron into the 11th green.
> 
> After, the raid was successful. a Navy cameraman took a picture of those in the situation room...you surely must recall this momentous photo...the skinny man with the big ears in the back of the room with his 9 iron in his hand was Obama...he had made his decision and used the nine iron.
> ...


Seal Team 6, which I'm sure you know. Brava for Seal Team 6!


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

For those who haven't seen this, I reproduce it here.


More Than a Victory, the Decision Today Was a Mandate for Us to Act ...an end zone dance from Michael Moore 

Thursday, June 28th, 2012 

Dear Friends, 

Even though it's been a few hours now, I'm guessing you're still pinching yourself to make sure you're not dreaming. But yes, it happened. At 10:07 this morning, the conservative Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, John Roberts, not only joined with the liberal justices to completely uphold almost every single part of the Obama health care law, he wrote the majority opinion himself! In fact, he went even further. When he realized that the government had poorly made its constitutional case to the court, he went searching for a clause in their argument and the constitution that would give him the justification he needed to back the administration and to insure that his decision would hold up legally. In other words, even though he is on the opposite side of the political fence, he wrote the Dems' paper for them. Stunning. 

The other four justices? They didn't just vote to overturn the individual mandate part of the law, they all voted to kill the entire Act. 

The media is already spending much time talking about the mandate being the "centerpiece of the law," but the real news is that if you ever have a pre-existing condition, you cannot now be denied insurance. If you are a young adult without health insurance, you can now stay on your parents' plan until age 26. The insurance company can no longer say there is a lifetime cap to your coverage. The insurance companies are now required to spend 85 cents out of every dollar they take in on actual reimbursement for your health care  not on profit or "administrative costs" (some companies have been taking over a 30% cut; Medicare's total percentage of their budget for administrative costs: 2%). 

I know that our side is not used to victories and so we're not quite sure how to respond when we get one out of the blue. For some of us, the first inclination is to point out just how weak the Obama law actually is, that it doesn't provide true universal health care (26 million will STILL be uninsured), and that it leaves control of the system in the hands of the vultures, otherwise known as the health insurance companies. The individual mandate was a huge gift to the private insurance companies, guaranteeing them billions more from millions of new customers. And many of the key provisions of this law don't even take effect until 2014  and if the Republicans win in November, you can kiss all of that goodbye. 

So, yes, the bill is highly flawed and somewhat wrong-headed  but what it IS is a huge step in the right direction. And today's court decision cements that. The right wing knows this and they are probably unraveling in some not-so-pretty ways right now. And that's why today is a great day. The Right has been smacked down by one of their own! They know what we all know  that the path of history has been, and will continue to move toward the basic human right that all people are entitled to see a doctor and NOT have to worry about losing their home because they can't afford to pay the medical bills. Those days are over, or will be soon, and that is where civilization is headed. It's not headed back to the days of Oliver Twist. Today's victory is momentum, it's forward motion, and we WILL have true universal health care in this country in the not too distant future. 

So take some time tonight to celebrate; this is a victory for the people. Actually, more than a victory, it is a mandate that all of us must now make sure that a second-term Obama continues to move the ball down the field, toward a system like they have in every other First World country on the planet. He simply has to improve Medicare and then expand it to every citizen in the country. The countries that do this, their people live an average of two to four years longer than we do. Is there a reason anyone doesn't want an extra four years of their lives? Or that our babies would have a better chance of surviving their first year like they do in the 48 countries that have a better infant mortality rate than we do? Exactly who is opposed to this? You'd have to be a bitcrazy. 

And that, I've come to believe, is the true divide in this country. It's not blue state vs red state, liberal vs conservative, Democrat vs Republican. The split we have in America can be boiled down in its simplest form to this: On one side are the people who believe Adam and Eve rode on dinosaurs 6,000 years ago  and then there's everyone else. On that first side are the people who've been fed a diet of fear and lies and hate. And who is feeding them? The 1%. The richest people in the country, the ones who aren't done with us yet because they still don't have enough wealth, have done their best to dumb down the population through destroying our educational system and using media to provide them with a vastly distorted sense of reality. The rich's only obstacle is that they only hold 1% of the votes in the country. So they have to try to get a slim majority of Americans to vote their way. And fear, plus keeping them stupid, usually works. 

So that's the battle ahead of us: Organizing and mobilizing the majority of Americans to push for true universal health care, Medicare for All. At one time, back in Illinois, that was the position held by Barack Obama. He will not make this happen on his own. He will only be able to do it when the mass of American people rise up and demand it. Demand it. Why not start tonight? 

Five years ago this week, my health care documentary, Sicko, opened in theaters across the country. I have spent the better part of the decade on this issue, and for me, personally, fully aware of the current law's limitations, I am very happy with today's news  not because of its specifics or nuances, but because it is a road sign, and that sign points in the correct, humane and sane direction. THAT makes this a great day. 

Yours, 

Michael Moore
[email protected]
@MMFlint
MichaelMoore.com 

P.S. I will appear on Lawrence O'Donnell's show tonight to discuss this issue  10:00 pm ET/7:00 PT (replay 1:00 AM ET/10:00 PM PT) on MSNBC. 

P.P.S. To learn more and get involved in the campaign for real universal health care  to complete the job that's been started  get in touch with National Nurses United and Physicians for a National Health Program.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

grammaollie said:


> Who has the best socialized medicine? US Military...including family members. The cost for my daughter's dental braces? Zero.
> 
> Who has those "juicy" pensions? US Military retirees. Who pays the cost?
> 
> ...


Grammaollie:

What is your point? Aren't you and your husband retired military? Congratulations on your good coverage if you are.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> just as I expected...the "bogus" factor is running very high among the military "wannabes"
> 
> The President...the Commander in Chief delegated this decision...that is why there is a chain of command...running from POTUS to an admiral or general who was authorized to make this decision.
> 
> ...


Back up your facts please or is this just more of you running your mouth. The president made the decision. He is at the top of that chain of command. I don't know the details of the raid and neither do you and we shouldn't know. Are you off your meds again. How Nice!


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

2knotty2knit said:


> Sherry1 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> ...


Isn't it rich, for anti-Obamists to reveal how their minds work (or don't work)?


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Sad day for Eric holder. Republicans have voted to hold him in contempt of congress. What a waste of time and money.
> This is the worse congress in US history. There must be something we can do!!


The black Commander in Chief got a big win today. There is no way the Congress would resist the temptation to sock it to the black Attorney General today.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

2knotty2knit said:


> Romney supporters are all over twitter complaining about Obamacare and socialized health care. They are so angry they are going to move to Canada, LMAO, what do they think we have here in Canada? Beside we don't want them here ,we have enough crazies of our own.


Although, I do understand their feelings...When George W. Bush was elected, then re-elected, thanks to his brother Jeb and the Roberts court of that time, lots of Progressives talked about moving to Canada!

Poor Canada! During the VietNam era, I said I would try to persuade my son to go to Canada rather than become cannon fodder for the war machine, if the madness persisted past his 18th birthday. At the time he was only 2 years old so neither he nor I had to ponder that decision.

Thank you for being there, Canada!! And the more Canadians we can hear from on this post, the better.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Grammaollie, you said "The President...the Commander in Chief delegated this decision...that is why there is a chain of command...running from POTUS to an admiral or general who was authorized to make this decision." The President doesn't "delegate" his decisions to admirals or generals. He orders them to do what he believes they must do. He is their ultimate authority. Compared to the President, a 5-star general has no more authority than the lowest private.


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## 2knotty2knit (Sep 14, 2011)

:thumbup:


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

NGJ:

In GrammaOllie's defense, in response to requests, she has provided some web sites she feels back up her statements. I appreciate her doing that and I have looked at the sites she suggested.

Unfortunately, the sites to which she referred me were partisan sources in which I place no credence.

I have provided Michael Moore's communication about the 6/28/12 decision for the information of anyone interested, because I am in sync with Michael Moore's opinions. I don't try to pretend this is a source of neutral "facts", however.

Just to clarify: Particularly on the internet, anyone can say anything. And what people say on the internet is sometimes interesting. What a person states on the internet may or may not be true. What is cited may or may not be a "fact."

It's important to understand the difference.


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## 2knotty2knit (Sep 14, 2011)

2knotty2knit said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > 2knotty2knit said:
> ...


LOL, I wouldn't be so quick to move to Canada we have George W. Bush's clone as Prime Minister.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Some people inadvertently -- but often clearly -- reveal in their writing that they are poorly educated and unsophisticated. Even though these same people may be fearless and unrestrained in expressing their positions and opinions, and though they may attack others who express different views, I feel it behooves people with more education, broader experience, and more reasoning ability to refrain from personal attacks and sarcasm.

There ARE means of expressing feelings, opinions, disagreements, and opposite conclusions without personal attacks, sarcasm, put-downs, and cruelty.


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## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

Time to take your own advice, Grammaollie. On June 23 you wrote on the non progressives thread "... It's time to unwatch and please Progressive chat cfe (sic) ladies, stay in your own self proclaimed hideout." So how do you justify your presence here?? Surely you can't possibly think your offensive rants and downright untruths will win over undecided minds? Or are you just desperate? I'd take you seriously if you showed just one percent of the class that President Obama displays every day. I have managed to ignore your baiting until today, but enough is enough. Please, please, please follow your own advice.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

ctknoll25 said:


> Time to take your own advice, Grammaollie. On June 23 you wrote on the non progressives thread "... It's time to unwatch and please Progressive chat cfe (sic) ladies, stay in your own self proclaimed hideout." So how do you justify your presence here?? Surely you can't possibly think your offensive rants and downright untruths will win over undecided minds? Or are you just desperate? I'd take you seriously if you showed just one percent of the class that President Obama displays every day. I have managed to ignore your baiting until today, but enough is enough. Please, please, please follow your own advice.


ctknoll:

I understand why you say what you do...but it seems to me not appropriate to chase all dissenting opinions away. No matter how ill-informed or self-delusional a person's statements may be, we progressives need to continue to entertain the opposing view. Of what value is it to preach to the choir?

At a minimum, we need to remain aware of what the opposition is thinking, and why. There is still a long, hard road ahead. We mustn't be complacent. Listening to the other side is a way to stay alert. For every person we may hear from on this post from "the other side" there are lots more out there.

We still have to get Obama re-elected, and not go to sleep at the switch. We have to stay attuned to what's happening outside our comfort zone.

I consider the give and take here a learning experience and a way of staying informed about what's going on with those who don't agree with progressives.


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## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

MaryMargaret, thanks for posting Michael Moore's reaction to today's Supreme Court decision. Because of that, I will see him on Lawrence O'Donnell tonight. Sometimes he seems to overreach but I'm a big fan of his, too.

By the way, your comment about being comfortably surrounded by like-minded people and having your kids in Mass. and Calif. made me realize how different I've had it. In Orange County, CA, home of the John Birch Society, in the 60's and 70's, in Arapahoe County, CO. 1977-2004 (think the likes of Tom Tancredo), and now in another heavily Republican Congressional District that elected a Tea Party follower in 2010. Why me?! Actually, this is a beautiful place with many wonderful people (besides, by now I'm used to being in the minority!)


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

ctknoll25 said:


> MaryMargaret, thanks for posting Michael Moore's reaction to today's Supreme Court decision. Because of that, I will see him on Lawrence O'Donnell tonight. Sometimes he seems to overreach but I'm a big fan of his, too.
> 
> By the way, your comment about being comfortably surrounded by like-minded people and having your kids in Mass. and Calif. made me realize how different I've had it. In Orange County, CA, home of the John Birch Society, in the 60's and 70's, in Arapahoe County, CO. 1977-2004 (think the likes of Tom Tancredo), and now in another heavily Republican Congressional District that elected a Tea Party follower in 2010. Why me?! Actually, this is a beautiful place with many wonderful people (besides, by now I'm used to being in the minority!)


Oh, headache, my sympathies for being a square peg in a round hole.

Yes, I've been in San Diego. It's in some ways a "Camelot." Weather and setting unparalleled. And I am sure there are many wonderful people, as there are everywhere. I hope you find, as we are not finding on this thread, to my dismay, that many military people have open minds and active judgment.

Choosing defense as a career does not *necessarily* mean choosing to be closed to new ideas and those less fortunate than ourselves. Does it? Or am I just naive?

And thanks for being receptive to Michael Moore. He's not everyone's cup of tea but I think he's way out in the vanguard. Few people will speak their unvarnished views. Michael does.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

This is the point at which I have to leave the room.

As many of you can see I waited to jump in until most of the drama was over. I have questions and opinions. I try not to state something as fact unless I check several reliable non-partisan sources. Unfortunately, junk is being spewed as fact, basic information about who controls congress, who is speaker of the house, etc. is not known and not even checked for accuracy. A friend, newly naturalized, told me that these basic questions are part of the 100 question citizen test. My friend knows exactly why President Obama is Commander in Chief. He gives the command! She takes voting seriously. She studies candidates to see which ones ideals most closely match her own. She will be informed when she votes the first time. She is hopeful, after all, she came here for a better life. Imagine how she will feel when her hopes are dashed and she realizes that any moron can vote without facts or research.
I am sad for our country. I like to think I am open-minded and will listen to another side if supported by fact that I can verify. I am sad that there are people who just listen to rhetoric, like drinking the corporate cool-aid, and blindly follow. I would love it if they read something with an opposing view, checked the facts and gave it honest thought.
I will be back to the conversation. I love the exchange of ideas and learning from our Canadian neighbors. Just not tonight..I have had enough of golf clubs! I wonder if anyone golfed more than Eisenhower? Not a fact, just a guess.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Sherry: Yes, it's exhausting. Come back to the fray when you're refreshed.

The election isn't over. We have lots of work to do.

Yes, the "golf club" attack astonished me, too. But there will be worse.

This is democracy. Messy and nasty and often ridiculous. But better than the alternatives. We have to stay with it. That is a lesson about America that may or may not be taught in the naturalization seminars -- that American Democracy is often messy, nasty, and ridiculous beyond belief. Because people are people, in all their diversity. 

There is no perfect system. There is only "keep on trying."

Go to White House gov and send President Obama an "'attaboy" message.. He's a human being. As classy as he is, no human is emotionally impervious to the lowlife attacks to which he's been subjected . Just say "Congratulations and, yes, we are with you. Hang in there. We love and need what you are doing."

Think how discouraging it must be to see the zillions of dollars pouring into the Romney coffers from a few zillionaires, while being well aware what money can buy. It's bought the Congress and it threatens to buy the presidency.

Barack is already acknowledging that he will be outspent, the first incumbent in history to be outspent, according to his campaign.

I am giving thought to what I can afford to contribute financially to the campaign going forward. But it costs nothing to e mail Barack and Michelle, who are our last, best hope against the barbarians, a message of encouragement and appreciation. 

Remember, they're only human. They need to know we're out here, we care, we take notice, we got wind in our sails today, and we can win. We MUST win, or the Dark Ages return.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Hi everyone - Sorry I missed out on this good discussion. We all know we had a huge victory with the Health Care decision from the Supreme Court. It was a little deflating with Holder being found in Contempt of Congress. I am so happy to know you all and to have the chance to share ideas and sources of the truth. It's pretty evident that some who visit here don't have good intentions towards us but because we believe in the freedoms we have we let them express those opinions. We have a long way to go until the election and I would love to see this thread hang together and beyond. Our President and other Progressive candidates are going to need our help in any way we can provide it. Many are not going to be able to contribute money who were able to 4 years ago. We are already seeing nasty Republican ads here in Minnesota. Since Citizens United we can't outspend them or even come close. Special thanks to our contributors from Canada our great neighbors to the north. This is your Forum too so speak out ladies. We need to hear your perspective on the issues we discuss. This is a gathering place for all of us. Let us keep to the higher ground and I know it can be a real challenge sometimes. Some of you have received PM's from me when I have just about lost it out here. They allowed me to vent privately so I wouldn't go crazy out here. Thank you, you know who you are. I am very proud of all of you for your conduct here. I'm sure attacks on this thread are going to increase so we can't let people suck us down into the sewer they are in. If you really get worked up and you need to let it all hang out PM me or each other. We are better than they are ladies because we do care about each other and about the welfare of others and the betterment of our respective countries and we use the truth as our guide. I see that as the big divide between the left and the right. See you tomorrow.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Hi everyone, sorry for mt absence today. I took a nap at 5 and now ust woke up. My brain needed to purge for a while.I do love reading everybody's opinions, but will not stand for a certain poster rearranging my words. Something you may want to check now and then.
I had hoped that today's Supreme Court decision would open up the eyes of the Republican House, but it looks like they are crying repeal. It is getting so out of hand. WE have to move forward and keep people informed. Lilly, I bow to you for starting this thread.
It think the whole Eric Holder thing is nothing but a Republican stunt.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

I agree Patty - We have to pace ourselves for the long road ahead. It's only going to get nastier. I got to sleep now.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

ctknoll25 said:


> MaryMargaret, thanks for posting Michael Moore's reaction to today's Supreme Court decision. Because of that, I will see him on Lawrence O'Donnell tonight. Sometimes he seems to overreach but I'm a big fan of his, too.
> 
> By the way, your comment about being comfortably surrounded by like-minded people and having your kids in Mass. and Calif. made me realize how different I've had it. In Orange County, CA, home of the John Birch Society, in the 60's and 70's, in Arapahoe County, CO. 1977-2004 (think the likes of Tom Tancredo), and now in another heavily Republican Congressional District that elected a Tea Party follower in 2010. Why me?! Actually, this is a beautiful place with many wonderful people (besides, by now I'm used to being in the minority!)


You could have it much worse. I have Michell Bachmann as my rep in congress. She does nothing in our disrict and totaly embarasses the State of Minnesota. I have written many letters asking her to get off her duff and start working for us and not her own political agendas. I get a robo call in return saying "let's make Obama a one term prez." and that's it. My letters fall on deaf ears. We need to get her out. Hopefull her opponent can defeat her, but I think we will see out of state money to keep her empty head in the House.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

The memo puts all control in the hands of Admiral McRaven  the timing, operational decision making and control are all up to McRaven. So the notion that Obama and his team were walking through every stage of the operation is incorrect. The hero here was McRaven, not Obama. And had the mission gone wrong, McRaven surely would have been thrown under the bus.CIA Memo April 29, 2011


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

The raid
On Sunday, May 1, 2011, the presidents advisers gathered in the Situation Room at around 11 a.m.  Half a world away, the SEAL team waited for nightfall.

So as not to arouse suspicion that a major gathering was under way in the West Wing, the team ordered pizza from several different places and also sent someone to Costco to get food.

The president played nine holes of golf at Andrews Air Force Base before heading to the Situation Room at around 2 p.m.

Brian Williams, Rock Cener


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

When SEAL Team Six was first created it was devoted exclusively to counter-terrorism with a worldwide maritime responsibility; its objectives typically included targets such as ships, oil rigs, naval bases, coastal embassies, and other civilian or military bases that were accessible from the sea or inland waterways.
On certain operations small teams from SEAL Team Six were tasked with covertly infiltrating international hot spots in order to carry out reconnaissance or security assessments of U.S. military bases and U.S. Embassies and give advice on improvements in order to prevent casualties in an event of a terrorist attack.
Although the unit was created as a maritime counter-terrorism unit, it has become a multi-functional Special Operations unit with multiple roles that include high-risk personnel/hostage extractions. Such operations include the attempted rescue of Linda Norgrove, the successful rescue of an American businessman,[33] and in 1991 the successful recovery of Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide and his family during a coup that deposed him.


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

Sherry,
Is there something wrong w/your computer? Why are there so many duplicate posts?
kat


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

MaryMargaret,

Any more questions about "Golf Clubs " ?

Any more questions about Presidetial delegation for the raid to kill bin Laden?

Anymore questions about Seal team 6? How many different teams were there?
 
Yes, I know my history!!! Yes, I know what Obama was doing during the raid!?

Yes, I know about Presidential delegation !!

Yes. I know what liberals, progressives...whatever... do to the person who has " truthful knowledg they do not want to be accepted by the public...Smear...Smear...make very mean spirited
racial comments...say whatever is necessary to destroy their credibility...

.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Barack Obama was and is the Commander in Chief of the United States armed forces.

Get over it.


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## jheiens (Jan 20, 2011)

katrinka said:


> Sherry,
> Is there something wrong w/your computer? Why are there so many duplicate posts?
> kat


It appears to be her way of expressing her contempt not only for the President but also for everyone else here who has openly disagreed with her opinions. Reminds me of a child having a temper tantrum and screaming out her anger over and over again.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

Sounds to me like the commander in chief gave the order with input from the joint chiefs and McRaven was the ranking officer on the ground. I don't think anyone here is denying these men their hero status. Brave men one and all. We have been trying to point out to you that the President gives the order..he decides if the mission goes forward. It was his orders that forced a covert operation to find Bin Laden and his orders that brought Bin Laden down. Make no mistake, if something had gone terribly wrong, as with Carter's operation in Iran, President Obama would take the blame.
He would explain to the American people. According to your logic, we would be blaming McRaven if things had gone wrong. I don't think so.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Well stated, Sherry1. Thank you.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Seems admin removed the many duplicate messages posted last night by g. and left a single copy of each.

Thank you, admin.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Please let's not respond in kind to grammaollie. I volunteer to be the first to refrain. I think we all understand the situation. I do appreciate having had the opportunity to observe the workings of a right-wing mind. But given the tone, it may be best to ignore such posts, so the whole thread doesn't get tarred with the same brush.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-393c3a2.pdf

Link to a PDF of the official Supreme Court decision, as issued by the Court, including assenting and dissenting opinions.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > katrinka said:
> ...


Please would someone tell me why "socialist" and "liberal" are such deadly insults? Do you know what they mean? The arguments I have seen here are well put and, to my mind, the only point of view for the vast majority of people. Why do we accept the criminal activities of financial institutions that have been allowed to become more powerful than elected governments? I am angrier than I think I ever have been in my life, and I've lived through some s***.

The questions I want to ask people who confuse socialism with Satan is: what is this world for? What are people for? Are we disposable unless we have money? Do we not deserve freedom from hunger, illness etc? The US and UK are rich countries, yet the richest can opt out of society and avoid paying tax on money they can never spend.

On these forums I see many Christian posters. I was brought up that way (no longer believe), and I wonder what happened to Christ's simple message about a camel passing through the eye of a needle.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Please let's not respond in kind to grammaollie. I volunteer to be the first to refrain. I think we all understand the situation. I do appreciate having had the opportunity to observe the workings of a right-wing mind. But given the tone, it may be best to ignore such posts, so the whole thread doesn't get tarred with the same brush.


Good idea. I made a post on the Non-Progressive site asking grammaollie if she was OK as she hadn't posted anything for a couple of days. As we can see, she's fine and I responded to her answer to me in the Non_Progressive site to say that while I don't particularly like her posts, I'm glad she's OK. Now I'll just scroll thru any more of her posts. I like to keep my blood pressure down, and both of us still will have our freedom of speech.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Please let's not respond in kind to grammaollie. I volunteer to be the first to refrain. I think we all understand the situation. I do appreciate having had the opportunity to observe the workings of a right-wing mind. But given the tone, it may be best to ignore such posts, so the whole thread doesn't get tarred with the same brush.


I'm with you MaryMargaret.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Please let's not respond in kind to grammaollie. I volunteer to be the first to refrain. I think we all understand the situation. I do appreciate having had the opportunity to observe the workings of a right-wing mind. But given the tone, it may be best to ignore such posts, so the whole thread doesn't get tarred with the same brush.


I'm with you on that. It's like putting perfume on a pig to try and reason with her.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > Please let's not respond in kind to grammaollie. I volunteer to be the first to refrain. I think we all understand the situation. I do appreciate having had the opportunity to observe the workings of a right-wing mind. But given the tone, it may be best to ignore such posts, so the whole thread doesn't get tarred with the same brush.
> ...


Please, let's not say ugly things about anyone.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

roflol

And you don't get to reply because that is what you said you would do. But then if you do you just like Obama, broken campaign promises. The liberal president Harry Truman who gave the order to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki and murdered millions of people said, 'If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!. He got removed from the kitchen by the populous. 

The Dems have a multi Billionaire (behind them pulling Obamas strings). The dems have way more money behind them than the Pubs (purposely shortened for your ease of reading because I know you have trouble understanding what you read.

Like I've said before, be careful what you wish for, you may get it. Today, give Obama credit for beginning the first day of class warfare. Yes, this election will be the ugliest ever. It will probably include race riots. The man in charge is Obama, get the drift? I've no doubt the dens will win with such ill-informed people like you on this forum have demonstrated. Then you will have what you want, you will be owned by the government lock stock and barrel. And you will be paying through the teeth for it. Small companies will definitely go under if the government makes them pay for their employee's insurance. You will have more people out of work. You will still have the rich people (which includes many more dems than pubs) but more poor people. Socialism has never worked in other countries without a revolution to end it. Obama owns the automobile industry, the financial industry, healthcare, the school system, pretty soon he will own all of you, actually the government now owns us all. It's history and the best place to look to see what will happen in the future is to look back at history. One other tidbit, Obamacare will decrease the services Medicare participants get because he has ordered it for the masses, it will have to be paid by someone and that someone is you and me, and I didn't vote for it. You all are in Obamas dream world, dream on, my fellow American citizens. Your nightmare has begun. 

You asked for facts? I gave them them to you. And you respond with condescending smears. Do you pay more money now for goods and services than you did 4 years ago? You especially do because then gas was $2.00, now over $4, and Obama wants you to pay at least $5. 

You wished for it, now you have it.

Obama also wants one currency, you know where the Euro is going now, south. 

Did you know dems call themselves the Elites, and believe they know what is good for the masses. Your individual rights are no more because he has completely obliterated the Constitution.

God bless you all!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Grammaollie - I started this thread called the Progressives' Chat Cafe. I used to feel sorry for you because I actually thought you may be ill. Your posts were so confused and you could not stay on topic. My mother and sister both had strokes that affected the brain and they both were very confused at times like you seem to be. Usually they were not even aware that they were having trouble and you would have to bring it to their attention and help them calm down and think normally again. I have to tell you that after I have seen how skillful you are at going into other peoples posts and messing them up and how you virtually never support your "opinions" what you call your facts I no longer believe you are sick. I do believe that you are simply out here on a rant and just having some fun, twisted and sick as it may be. Myself and others out on the thread don't take you seriously anymore and for the most part we have been very polite and kind to you. What do you do in return, come out here and scream some more. I believe many of us will no longer bother to read your posts. We will just skip them when we see your name. If you ever want to interact with us as equals, by that I mean grown women who act respectfully, welcome, if not why don't you play on the other threads. Please give it some thought. I was taught as a child not to be rude and with all due respect you are being extremely rude. You are wasting your time as we are about serious business and not child's play. Ladies how you decide to repond to this visitor is as always up to you. Please remember what Bambi's mother told him. "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." Thanks


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

Sherry,
Where do you get your information?
Thanx,
kat


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

This revelation of extreme wealth by Democratic politicians is completely contrary to the public image of the Democratic Party. President Obama has castigated millionaires and billionaires, suggesting they are evil people, largely Republican or conservative. The issue of the Democratic Party as the millionaire party has not yet made it into the mainstream media. But the facts are indisputable. Democratic members of Congress tend to be wealthier than their Republican counterparts.

According to the Center, 36 Senate Democrats and 30 Senate Republicans reported an average net worth in excess of $1 million in 2010. The median estimated net worth among members of the Senate Democrats was $2.58 million. Senate Republican median net worth was $2.43 million.

And, the wealthy Democrats tend to inherit their money. Republicans tend to earn it.

Senators John Kerry (D-MA), Jay Rockefeller (D-WV) and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) all came by their fortunes through marriage or inheritance. Senator Kerry, who was born into wealth, has listed his net worth as high as $281 million, while his wife Teresa is estimated to be worth $1 billion. Ms. Heinz did not earn her wealth either. She inherited the money from her husband Senator John Heinz, who died in an airplane crash.

Senator Rockefeller, representing dirt poor West Virginia, inherited his fortune from his family. He is reported to be worth $136 million.

While the economy continued to tank in 2010, Rep. Pelosi reported her own wealth to grow by 62%. Pelosis husband, Paul, is a financier. They own a multi-million dollar vineyard and a number of million dollar homes. They have a net worth of $196 million.

[...]Among those who actually got their money by earning it, Republicans were in the slight majority. Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA), a self-made millionaire earned his wealth by creating the Viper car security system. He is estimated to be worth more than $700 million. Sen. Jim Risch (R-Idaho) started as a rancher and attorney. His wealth is cited as $88 million.

Rep. Vernon Buchanan (R-FL), one of only three Republicans to make the top ten earned his money through real estate and car dealerships. He is estimated to be worth over $323 million.

Much has been made about Senator Bob Corker (R-TN) being the wealthiest Republican in the U.S. Senate. But he is ranked only number 14 because there are so many wealthier Democrats ahead of him. He doesnt make the Top Ten. He worked as a construction superintendent. Then started his own company. Today he is worth $107 million.

[...]The issue of politics and money has been a complicated one. President Barack Obama brought in far more money from Wall Street in his 2008 campaign than his Republican opponent Sen. John McCain (R-AZ). Obama raked in $1 million from Goldman Sachs employees that year. While his numbers are lower this year, the President has attracted $15.2 million from the financial services industry that he attacks so frequently.

Many Democrats run institutions on Wall Street. Jamie Dimon, the CEO of J.P. Morgan has been a long-time Democratic supporter. So too has Goldman Sachs Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Lloyd C. Blankfein.


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

katrinka said:


> Sherry,
> Where do you get your information?
> Thanx,
> kat


I simply google it.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Have a busy weekend planned. Parade for Amy Klobuchar(MN US Senator) tying new yellow ribbons on the trees in front of the Armory, and a day of phonecalling at the DFL. Somewhere in there I have to put a swap together and keep writing to my deaf and blind congresswoman, and a nice long letter to John Boehner asking him to stop worrying about his job and to start doing his job.


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

LillyK said:


> Grammaollie - I started this thread called the Progressives' Chat Cafe. I used to feel sorry for you because I actually thought you may be ill. Your posts were so confused and you could not stay on topic. My mother and sister both had strokes that affected the brain and they both were very confused at times like you seem to be. Usually they were not even aware that they were having trouble and you would have to bring it to their attention and help them calm down and think normally again. I have to tell you that after I have seen how skillful you are at going into other peoples posts and messing them up and how you virtually never support your "opinions" what you call your facts I no longer believe you are sick. I do believe that you are simply out here on a rant and just having some fun, twisted and sick as it may be. Myself and others out on the thread don't take you seriously anymore and for the most part we have been very polite and kind to you. What do you do in return, come out here and scream some more. I believe many of us will no longer bother to read your posts. We will just skip them when we see your name. If you ever want to interact with us as equals, by that I mean grown women who act respectfully, welcome, if not why don't you play on the other threads. Please give it some thought. I was taught as a child not to be rude and with all due respect you are being extremely rude. You are wasting your time as we are about serious business and not child's play. Ladies how you decide to repond to this visitor is as always up to you. Please remember what Bambi's mother told him. "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." Thanks


By not responding you admit defeat, I don't care what you say about me. When I find something of interest I will post it. After you all have frequently 
said we have freedom of speech, well anyway we have it a bit longer. how old do you think I am? You only wish I was ill as your condescending way of putting me down. I'm in for the long haul, are you. See I knew you couldn't 
keep quiet.

I feel like I'm talking to ladies who never got out of highschool. You have tried to tear me down. Not gonna happen. When I post something and you say to 
back it up, my reply is for you to refute it with legitimate sources, all of them.

Right this minute the immigration rule has blown Romney past Obama by 10 points.

You don't want to hear that class warfare has begun, solely thanks to Obama and the people who own him.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Has anyone been listening to the news today? Obama is ahead of Romney in the swing states by up to 10 points!! Yes! 
Another important vote today on student loan interest. Let's hope for the best!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

grammaollie said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Grammaollie - I started this thread called the Progressives' Chat Cafe. I used to feel sorry for you because I actually thought you may be ill. Your posts were so confused and you could not stay on topic. My mother and sister both had strokes that affected the brain and they both were very confused at times like you seem to be. Usually they were not even aware that they were having trouble and you would have to bring it to their attention and help them calm down and think normally again. I have to tell you that after I have seen how skillful you are at going into other peoples posts and messing them up and how you virtually never support your "opinions" what you call your facts I no longer believe you are sick. I do believe that you are simply out here on a rant and just having some fun, twisted and sick as it may be. Myself and others out on the thread don't take you seriously anymore and for the most part we have been very polite and kind to you. What do you do in return, come out here and scream some more. I believe many of us will no longer bother to read your posts. We will just skip them when we see your name. If you ever want to interact with us as equals, by that I mean grown women who act respectfully, welcome, if not why don't you play on the other threads. Please give it some thought. I was taught as a child not to be rude and with all due respect you are being extremely rude. You are wasting your time as we are about serious business and not child's play. Ladies how you decide to repond to this visitor is as always up to you. Please remember what Bambi's mother told him. "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." Thanks
> ...


Grammaollie,speaking for myself in my final post to you,here is what I think of you. I simply don't care anymore. I will ignore everything you write and respond to nothing from you. I think you are best suited posting in the Non Progressive cafe' and let us keep on with intelligent discussions. Admin had to remove pages of your unintelligible rants last night. This is not what this thread was started for. Why not start your own thread?
I'm finished with you.


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Why don't you get 5 more liberals, you guys are worn out, keep saying the same things over and over, hate when i bring you opposing views, you are really quite speechless and have no words left. Guess its time for you to shut the topic down.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Ok ladies,
I am going to be offline for a bit. Have to get to the DFL and help decorate a float for tomorrow's parade in St Joe. Will be riding on it in support of US Senator Amy Klobuchar. Should be a blast!


----------



## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Hold on, folks.

The hate mail is now coming from someone styled "Sharky" and "grammaollie" seems to have disappeared not only from this thread but from the user list.

Anybody have any idea what's going on?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

She is answering to Grandmaollie-or appears to be to some posts. Same message ---

It is easy to sign up again with another email address and different name. oh well.


----------



## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Sharky said:


> roflol
> 
> And you don't get to reply because that is what you said you would do. But then if you do you just like Obama, broken campaign promises. The liberal president Harry Truman who gave the order to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki and murdered millions of people said, 'If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!. He got removed from the kitchen by the populous.
> 
> ...


Are you speaking to me or someone else? If to me, please don't waste your valuable time hectoring me.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Hold on, folks.
> 
> The hate mail is now coming from someone styled "Sharky" and "grammaollie" seems to have disappeared not only from this thread but from the user list.
> 
> Anybody have any idea what's going on?


I think it is grammaollie with another name. She is saying the same things. Something was said aboout some of Grammaollies posts being taken down so now she is trying to pretend she is someone else so I won't answer to Sharky either.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Some of grammaollie's posts on other threads were quite lucid. I'm wondering if her KP identity has been taken over by her husband, who I'm pretty sure is retired military and may be attached to the U.S. Army War College in Carlisle PA, where the "grammaollie" profile said she lived, before that profile disappeared.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I think she has changed her name. I can't find any of her posts but quite a few of Sharky's one, is about what to do when you are down. I read Granma ollies reply that she purchased some special yarn, either yesterday or the day before. I noticed it as I have been following this forum. It now shows it was written by Sharky.
-----------
She started this thread http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-91708-1.html as Granma ollie just a day or two ago. I remember it as I was aware of her from this forum. It now shows Sharky.

I just checked all her granmaollie posts on this site and the posts now show sharky, from the beginning. She must not have realized that when you change your profile ALL your changed headings change from the beginning - same as the avatars. At least we know now Sharky -- what did you gain?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DId she change her username thinking we wouldn't notice?
Will not be replying to Sharky either.
How Nice!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> DId she change her username thinking we wouldn't notice?


guess so -- but Sharky is definitely granmaollie


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Hold on, folks.
> 
> The hate mail is now coming from someone styled "Sharky" and "grammaollie" seems to have disappeared not only from this thread but from the user list.
> 
> Anybody have any idea what's going on?


She changed her username, Mary Margaret. After Admin had to pull pages of her nonsensical rants last nigt, she may be trying to hide. Hiding in plain sight, LOL I will not respond to "Sharky"
or anyother name she dreams up. It's like having a maniacal stalker!


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Northwoods Gal said:
> 
> 
> > DId she change her username thinking we wouldn't notice?
> ...


You guys are so cute. Now we will get down to business! It was so funny watching your comments flow where you saw Sharky, very funny.

I'd let you have the website where I got some gorgeous 100% very inexpensive alpaca, but you wouldn't believe me because you don't believe anything I tell you. And it is beautiful.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

They decided not to prosecute Eric Holder. So what a waste of time and taxpayers money. Like I thought all along it was a stunt by the Republicans to tarnish his name during an election year. So Issa comes up looking like the idiot he is and Boehner with egg on his face.
Instead of starting a new pissing match, they should be working on things that will better America


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I am pleased they will not prosecute Holder -- Keep on truckin girls!!! By the way I enjoy listening and reading Michael moore -- he makes so much sense.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Boehner has stated that they want to repeal Obamacare, not repeal and replace, just repeal. Romney is still saying repeal and replace, so guess they forgot to tell him.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

NJG said:


> Boehner has stated that they want to repeal Obamacare, not repeal and replace, just repeal. Romney is still saying repeal and replace, so guess they forgot to tell him.


Boehner has a hard time hearing with Eric Cantor and Mitch McConnell in both ears


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Oh, that's great news, Eric not having to go on the rack as proxy for Obama.

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c2#/video/us/2012/06/29/sot-express-meade-obama-scotus-dancing.hln

Here's some great Leno and Colbert skits from last night on the ruling...


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I am pleased they will not prosecute Holder -- Keep on truckin girls!!! By the way I enjoy listening and reading Michael moore -- he makes so much sense.


I love Mike Moore. You can get on his e mailing list...whenever I'm feeling a bit confused by the news he clarifies it by using plain English.

He has paid for it. They've stalked him at his home and threatened. He had to hire quite a bit of security on a permanent basis.

"Here Comes Trouble," his memoir, is wonderful too. I listened to it as an audiobook. I consider him a national treasure.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Leno and Colbert skits from last night on the ruling..


I loved the one on Leno --Perfect reaction!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

(Michael Moore)I agree with you MaryMargaret--- he makes such good sense 95% of the time. There are some things I don't quite agree on but he sure does care about America and has so much courage. 

I watch him whenever I get the opportunity.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

I am really happy to find another MM fan.


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## Loistec (Jan 25, 2011)

I found this thread this morning and have been mesmerized, reading all 46 pages (so far) throughout the day. What a wonderful display of informed, intelligent, (for the most part) discussion! 

I found myself ignoring the posts of crabby Obama-haters who are sadly misinformed and don't really care about facts.

I consider myself a progressive, and follow Senator Bernie Sanders, listen to Thom Hartman, and love to watch Stephen Colbert skewer those silly conservatives!

Thank you Ladies and Gents, for starting this Progressive Chat and continuing the discussion while encouraging opposing views. 

I agree that we can all learn from civilized political discourse.

Our country is in trouble and we need politicians who are working for all, rich and poor, weak and strong, progressive and conservative. 

I will continue to follow this topic, with great interest, thank you all for contributing, you have made my day!
Lois


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

This is going to sound like I'm becoming paranoid... 

Last night and today, when i try to respond to an e mail from the Obama campaign, my browser crashes. I not only can't respond but have to reboot my computer.

I use Mac. In my imagination some right-wing mole techie is inducing sabotage. I mean, worse dirty tricks have been played in political campaigns, right?


----------



## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Loistec said:


> I found this thread this morning and have been mesmerized, reading all 46 pages (so far) throughout the day. What a wonderful display of informed, intelligent, (for the most part) discussion!
> 
> I found myself ignoring the posts of crabby Obama-haters who are sadly misinformed and don't really care about facts.
> 
> ...


Thank YOU, Lois. You've made MY day. It's been a bit rough around here recently.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I want to thank the ladies who pm'd me to welcome me and ask me to keep on contributing to this forum. I appreciate it that you understand that I 
don't want to force myself into a discussion about an election in the States, when I am a Canadian. I am enjoying this thread and plan on staying here and 
once in awhile putting in my 'two cents worth'. 

I am so glad you are willing to listen to the opinions of a neighbour who has pretty strong feelings about your country -- and the effect decisions made in Washington have on my country. Thank you so much! Shirley


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Loistec said:


> I found this thread this morning and have been mesmerized, reading all 46 pages (so far) throughout the day. What a wonderful display of informed, intelligent, (for the most part) discussion!
> 
> I found myself ignoring the posts of crabby Obama-haters who are sadly misinformed and don't really care about facts.
> 
> ...


Glad to have you with us Lois. Welcome


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Welcome Loistec - Please join us any time in the Cafe. Feel free to share your thoughts and ideas with us or comment on posts. All we ask is that you distinguish between your opinion on issues and if you are presenting facts on an issue that you please cite your sources so we can all read what you read. Hope you have fun out here.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Well finally congress passed a jobs bill, maybe they can get to work on those bridges now. Also the interest on student loans will not go up. That was due to expire on 7/1. Why wait so long. All the republicans accomplished by being slow is to have people loose respect for them and that is saying it nicely.


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## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234, please add my welcome to all the others you've received. You are thoughtful and well-spoken and I value your opinions. This thread has evolved into an amazing exchange, hasn't it? It's so much more than I ever expected when Nancy (aka LillyK) launched us not so very long ago. I look forward to the sharing and support of the many smart, caring women on this thread. Have a feeling we're in for some challenging weeks ahead and I'm mighty glad to have found you all. I think that even the drama with our right-wing visitor helped me better see what we are up against and not to waste energy on it.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Conversations like those on this forum are so helpful -- and I agree it makes us all realize that I wish you all well in your struggle.

I agree -- it is impossible to deal with the close mindedness-- All you can do, in my opinion is talk to others and have discussions, like we are doing. Designer


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## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

Lois, welcome. I'm glad you found us AND that you were willing to wade through those 46 pages AND that you plan to hang around. (As far as I know, we are all women, no gents, but then MaryMargaret may be right in her hunch that maybe grammaollie/Sharky's DH is contributing to her posts.)


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

In Mississippi they have a new bill just passed that any Dr that wants to perform an abortion must have admitting privileges to a Hospital. The Drs of the one clinic in the state that does abortions tried to get hospital privileges and were turned down by every one and they knew they would be. Having the right to an abortion is a federal law, but Mississippi has decided they don't care. They are going to make it impossible. The law takes affect on 7/1. Don't know if someone will take it to court. Mississippi is evidently controlled by republicans.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

That's totally against federal law.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Read the posts


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Read the posts


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

Welcome Lois!

I was just watching Rachel Maddow. The man who wrote Romney's health care plan is the same man hired by Pres. Obama To write Obamacare. They are identical. She was calling it Obamney care. So Romney is against the very plan he put in place in Ma.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

joeysmomma said Missiaaippi has every right to legislate that any Doctor performing abortions must have "admitting privileges" to ensure safety of the procedure.

The Drs have tried to get admitting privileges and the hospitals will not let them.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Therefore, with the hospitals not admitting them, they could not legally in the state of Mississippi perform abortions. And in these United States abortion is legal. Can you see what I mean,?


----------



## tired n' cranky (Aug 2, 2011)

Oklahoma has made it their business to make a legal abortion as humiliating an experience as they possibly can. A woman has to hear the heartbeat, pay for an ultrasound and listen to a Dr.'s lecture describing what the procedure will do to the fetus. All of this must be done 24hrs prior to the abortion. The religious right tried to get the legislature to require an internal ultrasound. Somehow these nut jobs got it in their heads that an abortion is an easy choice for a woman to make. Therefore, it's the legislatures job to make it more difficult and humiliating. Guess what, the vast majority of them are men and you can bet the old farts all have their Viagra prescriptions!


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Northwoods Gal said:
> 
> 
> > Therefore, with the hospitals not admitting them, they could not legally in the state of Mississippi perform abortions. And in these United States abortion is legal. Can you see what I mean,?
> ...


No Dr. in Mississippi can perform an abortion without hospital privileges and the hospitals will not grant privileges. People wanting an abortion will have to leave the state. Therefor the poor are disenfranchised again. The Dr does not want to break the law.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

jheiens said:


> I truly did not think that Chief Justice Roberts would break his long-standing pattern of voting along the usual lines of thinking! Praise God l was so wrong! I suspect that Justice Ginsberg is correct is thinking that his opinion leaves the Act open to further unintended consequences, if the Act can be sustained.
> 
> The campaign can now become even uglier than anticipated but at least the President will not be doubly hampered by the previous insults and aspersions so freely thrown at him and his efforts to guide this country through the mess that most of us had no part in creating.
> 
> Now perhaps we can get down to the work of supporting his re-election.


jheienes Stand up and take a bow!


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

NJG said:


> joeysomma said:
> 
> 
> > Northwoods Gal said:
> ...


Why do you assume only poor people want abortions?

Doctors take an oath to do no harm, so why do they go ahead and perform abortions?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I do not know of any state to date that bans abortions. But with Mississippi nd it's catch 22 law, how many will try to follow? Mississippi needs to remember that we are The United States of America not the Independent States of America.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

tired n' cranky said:


> Oklahoma has made it their business to make a legal abortion as humiliating an experience as they possibly can. A woman has to hear the heartbeat, pay for an ultrasound and listen to a Dr.'s lecture describing what the procedure will do to the fetus. All of this must be done 24hrs prior to the abortion. The religious right tried to get the legislature to require an internal ultrasound. Somehow these nut jobs got it in their heads that an abortion is an easy choice for a woman to make. Therefore, it's the legislatures job to make it more difficult and humiliating. Guess what, the vast majority of them are men and you can bet the old farts all have their Viagra prescriptions!


You are correct and if Romney should win and the republicans control both the house and senate, those kind of laws will be for every state and there will be no states rights.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> I do not know of any state to date that bans abortions. But with Mississippi nd it's catch 22 law, how many will try to follow? Mississippi needs to remember that we are The United States of America not the Independent States of America.


Any state that has a republican governor with republican control in the house and senate are doing it in one way or another. That and trying to infringe on voters rights.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Amen to that NJG


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Can somebody tell me why Viagra is a covered prescription but birth control pills are not. Oh, let me think? Oh I get it men use Viagra so they can have sex and impregnate women. Women use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy and a bunch of men at the insurance company decided women can pay for their pills. Men serve men, not women. Then if you get pregnant for incest or rape or some such thing you probably were dressed to provacatively and that good 'ole boy couldn't keep his hands off you. Yup, you carry that baby and then you give that baby up to some nice couple who can't have achild of their own then you just forget that anything ever happened and go back to your life. If you have a problem pregnancy keep that fetus alive at all costs, let the mother die. Leave the grieving husband with a newborn and the rest of the kids. We must bring all fetuses to term and let them be born. Where would the child molesters get children to rape? Where would father's who rape there own children be without those kids? Who would the abusive mother or father or mom's boyfriend smack around and beat to death if you let all those fetuses die? and last but not least where would all those future soldiers both men and women come from. We would have to stop fighting all our unjust wars. The horror!


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Can somebody tell me why Viagra is a covered prescription but birth control pills are not. Oh, let me think? Oh I get it men use Viagra so they can have sex and impregnate women. Women use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy and a bunch of men at the insurance company decided women can pay for their pills. Men serve men, not women. Then if you get pregnant for incest or rape or some such thing you probably were dressed to provacatively and that good 'ole boy couldn't keep his hands off you. Yup, you carry that baby and then you give that baby up to some nice couple who can't have achild of their own then you just forget that anything ever happened and go back to your life. If you have a problem pregnancy keep that fetus alive at all costs, let the mother die. Leave the grieving husband with a newborn and the rest of the kids. We must bring all fetuses to term and let them be born. Where would the child molesters get children to rape? Where would father's who rape there own children be without those kids? Who would the abusive mother or father or mom's boyfriend smack around and beat to death if you let all those fetuses die? and last but not least where would all those future soldiers both men and women come from. We would have to stop fighting all our unjust wars. The horror!


I have even heard republicans complain about birth control by saying it would keep the population from growing. They have also used the same comment when talking about gay marriage. They can't procreate. How stupid.


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

LillyK said:


> Can somebody tell me why Viagra is a covered prescription but birth control pills are not. Oh, let me think? Oh I get it men use Viagra so they can have sex and impregnate women. Women use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy and a bunch of men at the insurance company decided women can pay for their pills. Men serve men, not women. Then if you get pregnant for incest or rape or some such thing you probably were dressed to provacatively and that good 'ole boy couldn't keep his hands off you. Yup, you carry that baby and then you give that baby up to some nice couple who can't have achild of their own then you just forget that anything ever happened and go back to your life. If you have a problem pregnancy keep that fetus alive at all costs, let the mother die. Leave the grieving husband with a newborn and the rest of the kids. We must bring all fetuses to term and let them be born. Where would the child molesters get children to rape? Where would father's who rape there own children be without those kids? Who would the abusive mother or father or mom's boyfriend smack around and beat to death if you let all those fetuses die? and last but not least where would all those future soldiers both men and women come from. We would have to stop fighting all our unjust wars. The horror!


Don't know where birth control pills aren't a covered prescription if written by a doctor. I think what you mean is these people just want free ones instead of having to pay a copay!

You might want to lay off soap operas, too much drama for you.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Yes did you see on the news last month the minister who wanted to put all gay men into one area that was secured by a high fence so they could not get out. They would be fed but kept there until they died. The same thing would be done with lesbians until they all died. He said then we would be rid of homosexuals for good. Yup, does anyone see the flaw in his thinking? He also is prolife.


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

LillyK said:


> Yes did you see on the news last month the minister who wanted to put all gay men into one area that was secured by a high fence so they could not get out. They would be fed but kept there until they died. The same thing would be done with lesbians until they all died. He said then we would be rid of homosexuals for good. Yup, does anyone see the flaw in his thinking? He also is prolife.


How about giving me the website telling us about that?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I read the same thing, Lily --can't remember what website it was.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Sharky said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Yes did you see on the news last month the minister who wanted to put all gay men into one area that was secured by a high fence so they could not get out. They would be fed but kept there until they died. The same thing would be done with lesbians until they all died. He said then we would be rid of homosexuals for good. Yup, does anyone see the flaw in his thinking? He also is prolife.
> ...


If I didn't believe in leaving the gays and lesbians alone I'd be with that guy.

Do any of you watch the real polls. Be right back, you are going to love this!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Yes did you see on the news last month the minister who wanted to put all gay men into one area that was secured by a high fence so they could not get out. They would be fed but kept there until they died. The same thing would be done with lesbians until they all died. He said then we would be rid of homosexuals for good. Yup, does anyone see the flaw in his thinking? He also is prolife.


Yes here is the website for anyone that wants to read it. http://johnshore.com/2012/05/21/nc-pastor-lets-put-all-the-queers-and-lesbians-behind-elec...


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Yep, Lilly, lovely Christian man - eh? (as they say in Canada).

That is the one I read --- I heard about these kind of people, but it is hard to believe. 

It isn't only there though. In our provincial elections 3 months ago a Christian Minister said all gays and lesbians should drown in hell - and die a horrible death in a pool of fire -- It helped the party that he belonged to - which was trying to win the provincial election ,lose, because the leader of this new party, would not say that she didn't agree with him. She said 'he had a right to say what he thought." Until then her new party was leading the polls as there is a lot of discontent with our current party. The pundits say it lost her the election. I know many people including myself decided not to vote for the Wildrose party because of statements he made as well as one other person who spouted the same garbage. It is not happening very much in Canada but it didn't used to happen here -- so who knows what will happen n the future if these people win.


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

NJG said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Yes did you see on the news last month the minister who wanted to put all gay men into one area that was secured by a high fence so they could not get out. They would be fed but kept there until they died. The same thing would be done with lesbians until they all died. He said then we would be rid of homosexuals for good. Yup, does anyone see the flaw in his thinking? He also is prolife.
> ...


And it was ok for Jeremiah Wright to say God Damn America?


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## 2knotty2knit (Sep 14, 2011)

Is this the way religious people should be speaking? It is a disgusting way to behave.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/218671929157091329


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

2knotty2knit said:


> Is this the way religious people should be speaking? It is a disgusting way to behave.
> https://twitter.com/GodsLandGodsLaw/status/218671929157091329


He is not a christian.


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## 2knotty2knit (Sep 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> 2knotty2knit said:
> 
> 
> > Is this the way religious people should be speaking? It is a disgusting way to behave.
> ...


I don't get it sometimes, how does religion get mixed up in politics? and it gets real nasty too. I respect all beliefs and religions and I'm an atheist and yet so called Christians seemingly have no morals.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

LillyK, stand up and take a bow! That was well said!

Okay, now I'm going to pull a Michael Moore and say plainly what I truly believe. Feel free to comment. (Sorry, Michael, I have no idea what your position on these issues are. I'm just using your method of speaking clearly.)

Here it is:

I do not think that any male should have a vote on anything at all pertaining to women's reproductive choices -- contraception, termination or continuation of pregnancy, or method of delivery. 

For a woman, at an absolute minimum, pregnancy is a one-year commitment of her entire body and most of her mind, a potential risk to her physical and emotional health, and an extremely painful physical ordeal of 8-48 hours duration that, before Pasteur, was lethal to a significant number of women, and is still often life-threatening. If she keeps the baby, then that pregnancy is a lifetime commitment and a life-changer of immeasurable proportions.

This is without even mentioning the potential impact of a pregnancy on a woman's financial, athletic, or educational goals.

For a man, pregnancy is a pleasant 5 to 20 minutes of recreation.

Many men choose to invest emotionally and every other way in the children for which they are responsible. For men it is a choice.

Many women, including me, enjoy pregnancy, love raising children, and are grateful they can do this. For many women, including me, it is a choice. For many women, it is not.

I say this as a woman who experienced three planned, welcomed, and successful pregnancies and raised three healthy, robust, and successful children, is grateful for the privilege, likes and admires men, and had a committed husband to help raise the children

It all worked out well for me. I would have done the same with or without laws. I have no personal grudges or axes to grind. I just want to point out that the current laws and customs have no rational basis in my opinion.

The reason current laws are in place is very simple. Men have more power than women. Men want to control these issues. And they can, because they have more power. So they do.

But I do not think they should. In fact, it's ridiculous.

Imagine women having all control of laws regulating vasectomy, Viagra access, and condom use.

(I'm talking developed Western societies here. For this discussion I'm not getting into those societies in which women remain legal chattel.)

I am very interested in the opinions of reasonable people on this forum who can discuss the pros and cons of this position, whether or not they agree, in a rational and intelligent manner, especially if they have something original to contribute that adds constructively to debate. 

Because maybe I'm wrong. Did I miss something? I will listen carefully to any reasonable thing you say that comes from your own mind and not from a third party.

Thank you for considering a contribution to this discussion. It's an issue that really bothers me and I often wonder, as I said -- am I missing something? Because to me it doesn't seem like a radical opinion. It seems like a no-brainer.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Wow! I spent an afternoon running errands in downtown Berkeley and came home to find 3 or 4 more pages of posts here in the Progresive Chat Cafe, some of which would boggle even Berkeley's oddest folks. Welcome, newcomers! It's great to have a few new folks here, especially someone from Canada. I hope more people from other countries will stop by the Cafe and chat. We Americans are sometimes entirely too insular. And, much as I hate to admit it, I really wish Sharkey and grammaollie would just bugger off and stay out of the Cafe. I know they have every right to be here but they're making my head hurt. Maybe I should change my user ID to "tired and cranky #2". So many of you are addressing real issues in an informative and polite way that other kinds of posts jump right out of the page and try to bite me on the nose. Here's to more lively and sane discussion. I'm going to curl up with my cats and listen to an audiobook that has no socially redeeming value.
MaryMargaret, I enjoyed reading your remarks about women's rights and would comment further if I wasn't pooped.


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## 2knotty2knit (Sep 14, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> LillyK, stand up and take a bow! That was well said!
> 
> Okay, now I'm going to pull a Michael Moore and say plainly what I truly believe. Feel free to comment. (Sorry, Michael, I have no idea what your position on these issues are. I'm just using your method of speaking clearly.)
> 
> ...


Here in Canada there are no restrictions on abortion, legally they are available throughout pregnancy. Other than for serious medical problems you'd be hard pressed to find a Dr. willing to perform a late term abortion. Years ago I found out I was 6 wks pregnant the same time I found out I had cancer. I was 21, the Dr. gave me a choice of having an abortion or having the baby and a hysterectomy right after the birth. My daughter turned 32 a few days ago and she has given me 4 grand daughters. It was a choice I made, at 22 years of age I had a hysterectomy. 10 years ago I had a friend that had an unwanted pregnancy, due to her circumstances she chose to have an abortion and I was right beside her with all my support. Sometimes we have to make choices that are difficult but we are the only ones that should make them for ourselves. I tell my husband that men can make decisions about abortion when it is their bodies that are pregnant, he agrees.


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## maryelen (Mar 17, 2012)

Really is too bad that you cannot have a civil discussion with some. They're great at over talking, interruptions, and rants that have no basis in fact or science. Hope the poison pen has been put away- I would like to join the discussion
Maryelen


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

MaryMargaret said:


> LillyK, stand up and take a bow! That was well said!
> 
> Okay, now I'm going to pull a Michael Moore and say plainly what I truly believe. Feel free to comment. (Sorry, Michael, I have no idea what your position on these issues are. I'm just using your method of speaking clearly.)
> 
> ...


Well, you can look on the brighter side that there are a few more every year that challenge an incumbant male to his seat and wins. Unfortunately, women were just recently given the right to vote--1919 was the first year.

Here is her speech from 1868. As you read it things have not changed a lot.

I urge a sixteenth amendment, because 'manhood suffrage,' or a man's government, is civil, religious, and social disorganization. The male element is a destructive force, stern, selfish, aggrandizing, loving war, violence, conquest, acquisition, breeding in the material and moral world alike discord, disorder, disease, and death. See what a record of blood and cruelty the pages of history reveal! Through what slavery, slaughter, and sacrifice, through what inquisitions and imprisonments, pains and persecutions, black codes and gloomy creeds, the soul of humanity has struggled for the centuries, while mercy has veiled her face and all hearts have been dead alike to love and hope!

The male element has held high carnival thus far; it has fairly run riot from the beginning, overpowering the feminine element everywhere, crushing out all the diviner qualities in human nature, until we know but little of true manhood and womanhood, of the latter comparatively nothing, for it has scarce been recognized as a power until within the last century. Society is but the reflection of man himself, untempered by woman's thought; the hard iron rule we feel alike in the church, the state, and the home. No one need wonder at the disorganization, at the fragmentary condition of everything, when we remember that man, who represents but half a complete being, with but half an idea on every subject, has undertaken the absolute control of all sublunary matters.

People object to the demands of those whom they choose to call the strong-minded, because they say 'the right of suffrage will make the women masculine.' That is just the difficulty in which we are involved today. Though disfranchised, we have few women in the best sense; we have simply so many reflections, varieties, and dilutions of the masculine gender. The strong, natural characteristics of womanhood are repressed and ignored in dependence, for so long as man feeds woman she will try to please the giver and adapt herself to his condition. To keep a foothold in society, woman must be as near like man as possible, reflect his ideas, opinions, virtues, motives, prejudices, and vices. She must respect his statutes, though they strip her of every inalienable right, and conflict with that higher law written by the finger of God on her own soul.

She must look at everything from its dollar-and-cent point of view, or she is a mere romancer. She must accept things as they are and make the best of them. To mourn over the miseries of others, the poverty of the poor, their hardships in jails, prisons, asylums, the horrors of war, cruelty, and brutality in every form, all this would be mere sentimentalizing. To protest against the intrigue, bribery, and corruption of public life, to desire that her sons might follow some business that did not involve lying, cheating, and a hard, grinding selfishness, would be arrant nonsense.

In this way man has been molding woman to his ideas by direct and positive influences, while she, if not a negation, has used indirect means to control him, and in most cases developed the very characteristics both in him and herself that needed repression. And now man himself stands appalled at the results of his own excesses, and mourns in bitterness that falsehood, selfishness, and violence are the law of life. The need of this hour is not territory, gold mines, railroads, or specie payments but a new evangel of womanhood, to exalt purity, virtue, morality, true religion, to lift man up into the higher realms of thought and action.

We ask woman's enfranchisement, as the first step toward the recognition of that essential element in government that can only secure the health, strength, and prosperity of the nation. Whatever is done to lift woman to her true position will help to usher in a new day of peace and perfection for the race.

In speaking of the masculine element, I do not wish to be understood to say that all men are hard, selfish, and brutal, for many of the most beautiful spirits the world has known have been clothed with manhood; but I refer to those characteristics, though often marked in woman, that distinguish what is called the stronger sex. For example, the love of acquisition and conquest, the very pioneers of civilization, when expended on the earth, the sea, the elements, the riches and forces of nature, are powers of destruction when used to subjugate one man to another or to sacrifice nations to ambition.

Here that great conservator of woman's love, if permitted to assert itself, as it naturally would in freedom against oppression, violence, and war, would hold all these destructive forces in check, for woman knows the cost of life better than man does, and not with her consent would one drop of blood ever be shed, one life sacrificed in vain.

With violence and disturbance in the natural world, we see a constant effort to maintain an equilibrium of forces. Nature, like a loving mother, is ever trying to keep land and sea, mountain and valley, each in its place, to hush the angry winds and waves, balance the extremes of heat and cold, of rain and drought, that peace, harmony, and beauty may reign supreme. There is a striking analogy between matter and mind, and the present disorganization of society warns us that in the dethronement of woman we have let loose the elements of violence and ruin that she only has the power to curb. If the civilization of the age calls for an extension of the suffrage, surely a government of the most virtuous educated men and women would better represent the whole and protect the interests of all than could the representation of either sex alone.

Elizabeth Cady Stanton - 1868


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

I must say this as someone posted about a minisiter say all homosexuals should go to hell.
I am a devote christian,and beleive in Christ and the Lord.

I blieve what the bible says.
There is only one person who walk this earth with out sin his name was Jesus Christ.
I am a sinner the only thing that makes me different from you, is my faith in Christ.

The bible tells me when Christ found a prostitute ,and all wanted to stone her he said ye with out sin cast the first stone. They all left.

There is another passage that also says Judge not least ye be judged.
I beilve what this say.

I am a sinner, I am not your judge we are all made in God's image. 

I do not Judge you or the minister who said these things. It is not my place to do so. That doesn't mean I agree with him. But I am not his or your judge. That does not mean I am perfect as I do commit the sin of judging others, and have to ask for grace of God and forgiveness.

I am not perfect I do sin but I do know if I ask for forgiveness he is faithful to hear me.

So please do not think because I am a Chritiian I am holier than you. I do not look at you with the thought I am better than you,I am not.
We are all made in God's image, you have the same soul as I
regardless of race, color or creed, we are all made the same.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

It is so nice to see some new people joining in this discussion. I have been around for 80 years and we have come a long long way since I was a young girl.
We still have a long long way to go. 

I remember when I was l7 and desperately wanted to continue my education by going to Ryerson Institute in Toronto to study Art.(This was very very unusual in the lat 40's. I lived in Alberta - I asked my Dad if I could go -and he said 'no, but I will pay for you to go to business college in case no one wants to marry you" I accepted it because I had no choice, and also, because that was the norm then. 

(I did take a year to save $100. and went to Toronto on my own at age l8 
I have been a self taught artist ever since - A few years before he died he turned to me when I was driving him home from dinner at my house,(I had just sold one of my paintings) and he said 'I want to apologize to you- I didn't know you really were an artist and I didn't listen to you." That hurt was finally healed in l984.

Lily -- we still have such a long way to go -- and one of the reasons I am so interested in this discussion is because I am afraid things are regressing, rather than progressing. I agree with everything you said.

Theyarnlady--- You are the same kind of Christian that my mother was.
She didn't judge, she loved -- she accepted people as they were and she 
was the kindest person I ever knew- She lived her beliefs every day of her life.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Designer:

That is a beautiful post. I honor your for not letting ignorance and prejudice in your own father stand in the way of your getting what you needed. As for your description of your mother, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

And I, too, am thrilled about new people joining the thread!

Knotty:

Thank you for this enlightenment about Canadian reproductive rights. Such a hot issue in the US and always under threat, while just across the border the cool, calm, Canadians quietly get on with taking care of each other. It's no wonder Americans don't know much about Canadians. Canadians don't constantly "market" themselves and scream and yell. They quietly go about their business and don't brag. You seem to be more reasonable even than the British.

Thank you both very much for your comments.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Thank you, yarnlady, for representing your faith so well. It must be hard to witness other people who condemn others and claim their hideous attitudes are in the name of Christ.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

This forum is a accomplishing more than just discussion about your up coming election. I am sure Knotty agrees with me , that it is also helping some 
Americans and some Canadians, learn more about each other. 

It is a known fact in Canada that the majority of Americans have no idea of what we are like, and to be honest are not interested. I got to know many Americans when we went to Arizona to the same park every year. We became neighbours and close friends with both Canadians and Americans and it was eye opening for us all. 

We love our Country just as much as you do, we worry about the same things you do -- A lot of us are very concerned about what is happening in the States for what might be considered selfish reasons. Our economy is very affected by what happens below our border. Personally, it hurts me to see the 
deep divisiveness that is building between the left and the right. I also hurts me to see that people are being labeled and ridiculed - I really believe that 90% of Americans still love their country -- and I mean ALL Americans -- White, Black, Hispanics, Christians, muslims, hindus, athiests, all of you. 

Discussions like this are so important and I just hope the people whose 
politics are more important than the good of your Country, will wake up.

We have problems in Canada too -- but some of the things you said about us are correct -- we are not the same as Americans, yet we are the same. 

I think we should all be proud of the relationship between our two wonderful countries. It should be cherished -- and the more we communicate the better. 

I will get off my soap box now - grin. Shirley


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Designer, you are so right. I've been in Canada (Vancouver, Toronto, Quebec City, Montreal, PEI, Winnipeg -- how many Americans have been to Winnipeg TWICE?) quite a few times but never got to know it as I'm doing on this forum.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

http://new.wellesley.edu/events/commencementarchives/1996commencement.

As I'm sure you know, Nora Ephron died this week at age 71 of leukemia. In her honor, I offer her 1996 Wellesley graduation address.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Ladies once again my faith in human nature has been restored. You are all so eloquent in your posts and it does my heart good to read them. It would be wonderful if all Christians practiced what Jesus taught. I don't want my government and religion comingled. The religious right are no different than any other religious extremists in the World. They have no right to impose their beliefs on the people in the U.S. in any way. They keep saying they are patriots and demand their rights to carry guns and live free. Well I want to live free also without them imposing their beliefs and lifestyle on me or anyone else. They have a huge blind spot that they don't seem to be able to see beyond. I don't understand how they think or reason. Maybe they don't and that's the problem.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Ladies once again my faith in human nature has been restored. You are all so eloquent in your posts and it does my heart good to read them. It would be wonderful if all Christians practiced what Jesus taught. I don't want my government and religion comingled. The religious right are no different than any other religious extremists in the World. They have no right to impose their beliefs on the people in the U.S. in any way. They keep saying they are patriots and demand their rights to carry guns and live free. Well I want to live free also without them imposing their beliefs and lifestyle on me or anyone else. They have a huge blind spot that they don't seem to be able to see beyond. I don't understand how they think or reason. Maybe they don't and that's the problem.


None of us can have religion and government commingled. It's unconstitutional. We have the right OF and FROM religion enshrined in the Constitution. The religious right is completely ignoring this. As for guns, the 2nd Amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms. I happen to think that changing this amendment will open the door to major changes in the Bill of Rights. This will be done by Liberals who are concerned about gun violence in this country. We all should be concerned about that but I believe we have to figure out how to do so without touching the Constitution. Maybe the fact that the 2n Amendment states "That in order to have a well-armed militia..." Maybe that would help. Maybe gun control is also a matter of states rights.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

I agree with you craftylady. We should try to preserve our constitution. I do believe that the constitution is a living thing much like us. From time to time what we believed to be "right" we now find may no longer be suited to our current life and times. I believe from time to time it has been appropriate to amend the constitution as has been done. We should not do so without very careful consideration.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I have always believed that abortion is a 'moral' issue and has no place in government. I am with Lilly here. If Viagra is covered by insurance companies, then birth control should be as well. This Republcan "party" has had a field day trying to push us back in time. I'm still not over the Fair Pay Act being turned down. It's very clear what this Congress thinks about women and women's rights. I hope that no matter which party you you belong to, that you will go to the polls and vote against this regressive stance. Let our voices be heard that we will not tolerate it! Vote as a woman who is for women rights.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Hello, Ladies. I'm reading all the pages of this thread after having been absent for the week. It was a week from hell for me that turned into good news at the end. My doctors found a hemorrhage in my right eye during a routine eye exam. There was an area in its center that looked like a tumor. I was rushed through several tests, a pre-op physical, and a tentative appt for surgery on Monday. The ophthalmic oncologist was my last stop, and after more tests, he decided that it probably wasn't a tumor and that we can look at it again in 3 months. Yay! As I went through this week of panic, I thought about how lucky we are to have Medicare plus a supplement to be able to go through all this. I'm sure the bill would have been tremendous. I thought about all the people who may not have been able to have access to the wonderful care that I had--or even those who wouldn't have had even the regular eye exam that started this week. For a country as rich as ours, there's no reason that every single person shouldn't have the right to health care. While I'm happy for the decision on the Affordable Healthcare Act, this "socialist" thinks it's a start in the right direction. I hope one day that Medicare is expanded to cover every American.
Sorry for the self-indulgence and the long post.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

2knotty2knit said:


> NJG said:
> 
> 
> > 2knotty2knit said:
> ...


The far right wing Christians are a culture of their own. The mix up with religion and politics happens when they can't come up with anything to defend their political views. They bring out the bible and start ranting all over again.
Far right Christianity is to Christians as the Islam Extremists are to Muslims.
I do support the separation of Church and state.


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## tired n' cranky (Aug 2, 2011)

Sharky said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Can somebody tell me why Viagra is a covered prescription but birth control pills are not. Oh, let me think? Oh I get it men use Viagra so they can have sex and impregnate women. Women use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy and a bunch of men at the insurance company decided women can pay for their pills. Men serve men, not women. Then if you get pregnant for incest or rape or some such thing you probably were dressed to provacatively and that good 'ole boy couldn't keep his hands off you. Yup, you carry that baby and then you give that baby up to some nice couple who can't have achild of their own then you just forget that anything ever happened and go back to your life. If you have a problem pregnancy keep that fetus alive at all costs, let the mother die. Leave the grieving husband with a newborn and the rest of the kids. We must bring all fetuses to term and let them be born. Where would the child molesters get children to rape? Where would father's who rape there own children be without those kids? Who would the abusive mother or father or mom's boyfriend smack around and beat to death if you let all those fetuses die? and last but not least where would all those future soldiers both men and women come from. We would have to stop fighting all our unjust wars. The horror!
> ...


Sharky, there are plenty of insurance companies that do NOT pay one red cent for birth control pills or other forms of birth control prescribed by a Dr. My father is an OBGYN, doesn't perform abortions because his specialty is infertility. Because it is a legal procedure and a safe one he has no objection. The state he practices in is well on its way to repeating what OK has. 
The young law student that you refer to getting free birth control pills would have paid a small copay. I guess you would prefer paying some other kind of assistance to an unwed mother and infant. 
No need for the snarky comments.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Northwoods Gal said:
> 
> 
> > I have always believed that abortion is a 'moral' issue and has no place in government. I am with Lilly here. If Viagra is covered by insurance companies, then birth control should be as well. This Republcan "party" has had a field day trying to push us back in time. I'm still not over the Fair Pay Act being turned down. It's very clear what this Congress thinks about women and women's rights. I hope that no matter which party you you belong to, that you will go to the polls and vote against this regressive stance. Let our voices be heard that we will not tolerate it! Vote as a woman who is for women rights.
> ...


Are you kidding me???? Just to catch you up, Joey, it was passed in the house by a narrow margin. The majority in the senate voted for it and the Republicans fillibustered it. It did not get passed.I am talking about 10 days ago., not 3 years ago.
Another slap for women from our wonderful Republicans.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

tired and cranky, that's grammaollie that is posting under Sharky. She changed her user name. What else would you expect?


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

The right needs to lean forward and get into the current century. No wonder so many of them can't understand what is going on and bring the "facts". I think they are caught in a time warp of their own making. It's probably a lot safer and more comfy for them there where things make sense to them. This is strictly my opinion based on my own observations.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Alcameron:

Whew! Dodged another bullet! Thank goodness. My philosophy is (almost) NEVER rush into surgery. So happy you have a good and ethical surgeon willing to treat with watchful waiting.

Thanks for sharing and welcome back.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

maryelen said:


> Really is too bad that you cannot have a civil discussion with some. They're great at over talking, interruptions, and rants that have no basis in fact or science. Hope the poison pen has been put away- I would like to join the discussion
> Maryelen


Maryelen: Please join the discussion and ignore the ranters. Just like in real life, the poison pen is always a threat but you can't let it stop you.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Crafty Lady: I'm with you. I'm not ready to repeal the "bear arms" amendment. Some way must continue to be sought to mitigate the extremism of the faction that currently controls the NRA. 

Just as in anything else, that some abuse it doesn't make it a bad law.

I grew up in the rural south, in an isolated but high-profile setting, and know what it is to feel the need to protect the family. Dad didn't get out his shotgun very often (I remember twice) but when he did I was happy he had one. People who grow up in cities with 911 numbers have difficulty understanding.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Northwoods Gal said:
> 
> 
> > joeysomma said:
> ...


I stand corrected. Lost my wifi connection so I would have posted sooner. Yes, the Paycheck Fairness Act is what I was referring to.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> I have always believed that abortion is a 'moral' issue and has no place in government. I am with Lilly here. If Viagra is covered by insurance companies, then birth control should be as well. This Republcan "party" has had a field day trying to push us back in time. I'm still not over the Fair Pay Act being turned down. It's very clear what this Congress thinks about women and women's rights. I hope that no matter which party you you belong to, that you will go to the polls and vote against this regressive stance. Let our voices be heard that we will not tolerate it! Vote as a woman who is for women rights.


When abortion became legal I recall hearing the argument from the right-to-lifers that women would think having an abortion would be just as simple as a trip to the dentist, and wouldn't give serious thought to what they were doing. Abortion is indeed a moral issue, and a very profound personal decision. I actually agree with the right-to-life folks that abortion is murder whether the fetus is viable or not. To me, that's what makes it such a serious and profound decision for a woman to make. Do any of us know any woman who has forgotten she had an abortion, didn't struggle morally to decide to have one, and doesn't think about it now and then? That's also why I think it's best to limit abortions to the first trimester whenever it is possible to do so. The law, however, should definetly not make that limitation. The women I know feel the same way I do and do what they can to see that abortion remains legal. I do, however, think it's important to talk to the man involved if the situation allows that. The man can provide a great deal of support for the woman though, of course, it is her decision in the end. And if Viagra is covered by health insurance, birth control methods other than condoms (which don't need a prescription) should be covered by a woman's health care plan. Birth control is just as much a part of family planning as is pregnancy.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

tired n' cranky said:


> Sharky said:
> 
> 
> > LillyK said:
> ...


26 states have authorized already insurance companies to pay for the pills. You guys are in luck, thanks to Obama birth control is effective 1 Aug, most will have to wait until Jan 1, so get yourselves all powdered up and your one night stands lined up. I'm pretty sure none of you on this thread need them at this time of your life. There are worse things you can get with sex with multiple partners, AIDs comes to mind. It amazes me when tv shows young or old women hopping in and of bed with whomever they just met. Not a good ethic for teens, well so many teens are sexually active at as early as 10 or 11. There they come downstairs for breakfast and good ole mum says to put down your teddy bear and don't forget to take your pill. Fell free to call me anything you like, Sherry, Sharky (shorter than grammaollie), centrist, American, United States citizen, profound pet lover, Snarky. The pill does not prevent women from getting all sorts of deadly diseases that will cost you more than a few pills. Too bad parents can't instill basic morals to these children. How many of you have slept with more than 1 person, well, make that 2 or 3 or 4 if you've gotten divorced and remarried. Did you save yourselves for marriage only. I presume that with this age group on the thread you weren't as free with sex as many youngsters are now. Abortion is not the problem in the world, it's instilling moral ethics in your children.

I believe I've told my stand on abortion and golly gee whiz it's pretty much like yours, let the woman decide, she will have the rest of her life to 'live' with the memory.

One question before I go, can you install moral ethics without bringing religion into the equation?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Well the parade was a blast today! 50 progressives marching with Amy Klobuchar and the DFL. It was hotter than haydes, but well worth the effort. I thinks me shall have a beer!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Good for you Patty! You deserve it being out in this heat doing your civic duty. Lesser women would have stayed inside with air conditioning. :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

"" It sounds very successful! Wish I was closer so we could 'hoist' one ( would love to join you!) Not very hot here but then it rarely gets over 76 F.


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## jheiens (Jan 20, 2011)

And it was ok for Jeremiah Wright to say God Damn America?[/quote]

Haven't heard one poster on this thread claim that Wright had any Biblical backing to make that statement.


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## jheiens (Jan 20, 2011)

I do support the separation of Church and state.[/quote]

I also support the separation of church and state for the simple reason that just because members of my church or denomination may be in the majority in Congress and hold the White House does not mean that they will be our leaders following the next election.

Then, when your fellow-believers become responsible for leading our country I will be expecting to have the same religious freedom that members of my faith group supported for your group. The ''Ins" don't hold the majority forever and the ''Outs'' aren't going to be out of leadership forever.


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## LizAnne (Nov 25, 2011)

Where did the label The Religious Right come from? I am offended every time I hear it.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I am watching CNN herein Calgary, and it was just announced that the one and only abortion clinic in Mississippi is going to have to close at midnight, as no hospitals have come forward to allow physicians who give abortions the ability to work in their hospitals. The politician( didn't catch his name) who brought forth the bill, admits that he is against abortions but 'this wasn't to force his opinion on anyone'

so sad -- I believe women should have the RIGHT to choose whether they have an abortion or not. They are the only ones who should have that right.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

jheiens said:


> I do support the separation of Church and state.


I also support the separation of church and state for the simple reason that just because members of my church or denomination may be in the majority in Congress and hold the White House does not mean that they will be our leaders following the next election.

Then, when your fellow-believers become responsible for leading our country I will be expecting to have the same religious freedom that members of my faith group supported for your group. The ''Ins" don't hold the majority forever and the ''Outs'' aren't going to be out of leadership forever.[/quote]

Precisely. And why a democracy is better than a monarchy. Our ancestors were burned at the stake for not professing the "official" faith.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

jheiens said:


> And it was ok for Jeremiah Wright to say God Damn America?


Haven't heard one poster on this thread claim that Wright had any Biblical backing to make that statement.[/quote]

Jeremiah Wright was Obamas pastor for many years. Pastor, biblical backing, what more do you need? Google it! Obama kicked him to the curb when tapes showing Jeremiah Wright preaching very heated comments against white America in his church were aired on national television.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Crafty Lady, thank you for your thoughtful paragraph on abortion. We're on the same page. It's a profound decision and few women would take it lightly, and few would exclude a reasonable man from the decision-making process. But in the end it's the woman's right to decide.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

MaryMargaret said:


> jheiens said:
> 
> 
> > I do support the separation of Church and state.
> ...


Precisely. And why a democracy is better than a monarchy. Our ancestors were burned at the stake for not professing the "official" faith.[/quote]

MaryMargaret, we have a monarchy now, so when will democracy return?


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Anne Smith said:


> Where did the label The Religious Right come from? I am offended every time I hear it.


Please start at the beginning of this thread, if that offends you, wait until you read the rest of their rantings.

This whole topic needs to be shut down--it is very offensive to the average American.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Sharky, my parents didn't "install" any ethics or morals in me. I'm not a piece of machinery that needs some sort of installation. They instilled excellent morals and ethics in me by their own example. You would be hard-pressed to find two more decent people than my mother and father. And, of course, I have been able to choose people to be a part of my life who are just as good as my parents were, once again, because I lived with good examples. No spankings, no religion, no yelling or putting us kids down. Sometimes I think I live up to their example and count myself lucky for that.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Jerry Falwell was the first to use the phrase, Religious Right. This is a timeline of the evolution of the Religious Right found in Wikipedia

Political leaders and institutions

Led by Robert Grant's advocacy group Christian Voice, Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority, Ed McAteer's Religious Roundtable Council, James Dobson's Focus on the Family, and Pat Robertson's Christian Broadcasting Network, the new Religious Right combined conservative politics with evangelical and fundamentalist teachings.[17] The birth of the New Christian right, however, is usually traced to a 1979 meeting where televangelist Jerry Falwell was urged to create a "Moral Majority" organization.[18][19]

[edit] Timeline
1960s Early 1960s  Barry Goldwater's political campaign draws much attention from conservative leaders. A number of prominent former Dixiecrats, including Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms, eventually would switch to the Republican Party.
1968  Richard Nixon's presidential campaign uses a Southern strategy of exploiting racism among white voters in the South, eventually contributing to a realignment of the South with the Republican Party.[20]
1970s 1972  Eagle Forum is formed.
May 15, 1974  The United States Supreme Court that held, in Bob Jones University v. United States, that the Internal Revenue Service could, without the approval of the United States Congress, revoke the tax exempt status of organizations that are contrary to established public policy. The decision came about from the university's ban of "admission to applicants engaged in an interracial marriage or known to advocate interracial marriage or dating."[21]
1974  Robert Grant founds the American Christian Cause as an effort to institutionalize the Christian Right as a politically active social movement.
1977  Focus on the Family is formed.
1978  Robert Grant, Paul Weyrich, Terry Dolan, Howard Phillips, and Richard Viguerie found Christian Voice, to recruit, train, and organize Evangelical Christians to participate in elections.
1979  Jerry Falwell founds Moral Majority, which is often said to be the beginning of the New Christian Right. Concerned Women for America is formed.
1980s April 29, 1980  Washington for Jesus founded by John Giminez, the pastor of Rock Church in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Dr. William Bright, Benson Idahosa from Africa, and many other high-profile Christians marched on Washington DC, in an effort to support Ronald Reagan's presidential run. This event provides a place for the Christian Right to outline many of their beliefs in speeches and statements.
1980  Ronald Reagan elected president, serving two presidential terms (19811989). Republicans capture the Senate for the first time since 1952.
1982 The Washington Times newspaper founded in Washington D.C. by the Unification Church. On May 18, 1982, President Reagan introduced a proposed School Prayer Amendment to the United States Constitution.[22]
1983  The Family Research Council is formed. On March 8, 1983, President Ronald Reagan addresses the annual convention of the National Association of Evangelicals and refers to the Soviet Union as an "evil empire"; the speech becomes known as the "Evil Empire" speech.[23][24] President Reagan publishes an article entitled "Abortion and the Conscience of a Nation."[25][26][27]
1984  President Ronald Reagan proclaims January 13, 1984 to be National Sanctity of Human Life Day. President Reagan announces the adoption of the Mexico City Policy, which required "all non-governmental organizations (NGOs) that receive federal funding to refrain from performing or promoting abortion services, as a method of family planning, in other countries."
April 30, 1987  Pat Robertson founds the Christian Coalition, which later becomes the most prominent voice in the Christian Right.
1988  George H. W. Bush is elected president with the support of most conservative Christian voters.
1989  Liberty Counsel is formed.
1990s 1990  The American Center for Law and Justice is formed.
1992  The Christian Coalition produces voter guides and distributes them to conservative Christian churches.
1994  Conservative Republicans take control of the House of Representatives, led by Christian conservative Newt Gingrich. The Alliance Defense Fund is formed.
1996  The Defense of Marriage Act is enacted.
2000s 2000  The Children's Internet Protection Act (CIPA) is passed. In Boy Scouts of America v. Dale, the United States Supreme Court holds that the First Amendment allows the Boy Scouts to exclude openly homosexual males from membership in its organization.
January 20, 2001  George W. Bush becomes president with the overwhelming support of white conservative evangelical voters.
2001  George W. Bush re-institutes the Mexico City Policy.
2002  The Born-Alive Infants Protection Act of 2002 is enacted.
2003  The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003 is enacted.
2004  The Unborn Victims of Violence Act is enacted. President Bush announces his support for a Federal Marriage Amendment.[28]
2006  President George W. Bush vetoes the Stem Cell Research Enactment Act of 2006.
2007  The National Organization for Marriage is formed. President George W. Bush vetoes the Stem Cell Research Enactment Act of 2007. The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003 is upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case of Gonzales v. Carhart.[29]
2009  Barack Obama becomes President of the United States. Obama would be opposed by the Christian Right notably because of his general pro-choice position and support of same-sex marriage.
2010s 2010  With the help of the Christian right Tea Party Movement, the Republican party took a majority of seats in the United States House of Representatives.
2011-2012  A harsh primary for the 2012 Republican Party presidential nomination is fought throughout 2011 and into 2012. Very few prominent Republican Party politicians enter the race, with former Governor of Massachusetts and 2008 contender Mitt Romney being viewed from the beginning as who was going to win the nomination. The Christian Right opposed the candidacy of the center-right Romney, as he is a Mormon and his positions on social issues were inconsistant with their's. Throughout the primary, the poll ratings of his opponents would rise and fall dramatically as the Christian Right's support shifted from candidate to candidate in search of a "conservative alternative" to Romney. Christian conservative politicians Michele Bachmann, Rick Perry, Herman Cain and Newt Gingrich, would one at a time be supported as an opponent to Romney until the Christian right's support would be consolidated behind Rick Santorum, a staunch social conservative who spent most of the primary race viewed as a fringe candidate and largely ignored. Santorum and Romney would aggressively battle each other throughout the first months of the primaries, until Santorum suspended his campaign and conceded the nomination to Romney. The primary would make Santorum into a favorite among the Christian right.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Happy Canada Day, July 1 to all our Canadian friends here. I love your beautiful national anthem.

Oh Canada!

O Canada! Our home and native land
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise
The true north, strong and free
From far and wide, O Canada
We stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free
O Canada! We stand on guard for thee
O Canada! We stand on guard for thee.


O Canada! Terre de nos aieux
Ton front est ceint de fleurons glorieux!
Car ton bras sait porter l'épée
Il sait porter la croix!
Ton histoire est une épopée
Des plus brilliants exploix.
Et ta valeur, de foi trempée
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Happy Canada Day, July 1 to all our Canadian friends here. I love your beautiful national anthem.

Oh Canada!

O Canada! Our home and native land
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise
The true north, strong and free
From far and wide, O Canada
We stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free
O Canada! We stand on guard for thee
O Canada! We stand on guard for thee.


O Canada! Terre de nos aieux
Ton front est ceint de fleurons glorieux!
Car ton bras sait porter l'épée
Il sait porter la croix!
Ton histoire est une épopée
Des plus brilliants exploix.
Et ta valeur, de foi trempée
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Thankyou ---your post brings tears to my eyes. I appreciate it that an American friend posted this for us.

I hope our two countries never let our friendship be hurt by political differences.

I hope people like us can always communicate with each other. 

I hope America remains the America that has done so much in the past for places that desperately needed help. 

I hope that our border is always open to each other. 


I hope that bigotry and nastiness disappears in your coming election. 

I hope you realize that many many Canadians are interested in what happens here and we are hoping that your problems sort themselves out,

and that 
both our countries can get out of Afghanistan without one more of our 
young people hurt or killed.

and, personally, I hope that I can keep in touch with the friends I have made through this particular forum, for a long time to come, even after the election. Shirley


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Jerry Falwell was the first to use the phrase, Religious Right. This is a timeline of the evolution of the Religious Right found in Wikipedia
> 
> Political leaders and institutions
> 
> ...


Amen!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

lily and country bumpkins ----very very interesting -- It is interesting to see how things evolved.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

craftylady49 said:


> Sharky, my parents didn't "install" any ethics or morals in me. I'm not a piece of machinery that needs some sort of installation. They instilled excellent morals and ethics in me by their own example. You would be hard-pressed to find two more decent people than my mother and father. And, of course, I have been able to choose people to be a part of my life who are just as good as my parents were, once again, because I lived with good examples. No spankings, no religion, no yelling or putting us kids down. Sometimes I think I live up to their example and count myself lucky for that.


And that is exactly my point, parental guidance!


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Before you look to do harm to Chief Justice Roberts or his family, its important that you think carefully about the meaning  the true nature  of his ruling on Obama-care. The Left will shout that they won, that Obama-care was upheld and all the rest. Let them.

It will be a short-lived celebration.

Heres what really occurred  payback. Yes, payback for Obamas numerous, ill-advised and childish insults directed toward SCOTUS.



Chief Justice Roberts actually ruled the mandate, relative to the commerce clause, was unconstitutional. Thats how the Democrats got Obama-care going in the first place. This is critical. His ruling means Congress cant compel American citizens to purchase anything. Ever. The notion is now officially and forever, unconstitutional. As it should be.

Next, he stated that, because Congress doesnt have the ability to mandate, it must, to fund Obama-care, rely on its power to tax. Therefore, the mechanism that funds Obama-care is a tax. This is also critical. Recall back during the initial Obama-care battles, the Democrats called it a penalty, Republicans called it a tax. Democrats consistently soft sold it as a penalty. It went to vote as a penalty. Obama declared endlessly, that it was not a tax, it was a penalty. But when the Democrats argued in front of the Supreme Court, they said hey, a penalty or a tax, either way. So, Roberts gave them a tax. It is now the official law of the land  beyond word-play and silly shenanigans. Obama-care is funded by tax dollars. Democrats now must defend a tax increase to justify the Obama-care law.

Finally, he struck down as unconstitutional, the Obama-care idea that the federal government can bully states into complying by yanking their existing medicaid funding. Liberals, through Obama-care, basically said to the states  comply with Obama-care or we will stop existing funding. Roberts ruled that is a no-no. If a state takes the money, fine, the Feds can tell the state how to run a program, but if the state refuses money, the federal government cant penalize the state by yanking other funding. Therefore, a state can decline to participate in Obama-care without penalty. This is obviously a serious problem. Are we going to have 10, 12, 25 states not participating in national health-care? Suddenly, its not national, is it?

Ultimately, Roberts supported states rights by limiting the federal governments coercive abilities. He ruled that the government can not force the people to purchase products or services under the commerce clause and he forced liberals to have to come clean and admit that Obama-care is funded by tax increases.

Although he didnt guarantee Romney a win, he certainly did more than his part and should be applauded.

And he did this without creating a civil war or having bricks thrown threw his windshield. Oh, and hell be home in time for dinner.

Brilliant.
Taken from Independent Journal


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## LizAnne (Nov 25, 2011)

Thank you Lilly K and Country Bumpkins.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

Happy Canada Day to my Canadian friends. I am toasting you with Champagne as we are celebrating our Fourth of July with family a few days early.
I have enjoyed visiting your country many, many times over the years. I thinks it's great.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Anne Smith said:


> Thank you Lilly K and Country Bumpkins.


 I was applauding the religious right. I was amening them. Not the left or progessives.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

The voter turn-out in California for the June 5th election was as low as 21% in some places, and if my somewhat fuzzy memory (I'm only part way through my first cup of coffee...) is correct, voter turn-out didn't rise above 36% in any part of California. When I lived in Canada in the 1990's voter turn-out was often at least 95%. We should be ashamed of ourselves.

Are we, as citizens, so lacking in the understanding that voting is both the right, the priviledge, and the obligation of every eligible voter? We don't even have to leave home to vote. It's very simple to become an absentee voter. Look at the excitement and huge turn-outs we see in other countries when they have elections for the first time. People dress in their finest clothes, take their children with them to winess the historic event, and some even weep for joy. 

Friends, what can we do to end this complacency? How can we increase voter turn-out? How can we live with the fact that the "majority" in some places is only a little over 10% of eligible voters?


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> The voter turn-out in California for the June 5th election was as low as 21% in some places, and if my somewhat fuzzy memory (I'm only part way through my first cup of coffee...) is correct, voter turn-out didn't rise above 36% in any part of California. When I lived in Canada in the 1990's voter turn-out was often at least 95%. We should be ashamed of ourselves.
> 
> Are we, as citizens, so lacking in the understanding that voting is both the right, the priviledge, and the obligation of every eligible voter? We don't even have to leave home to vote. It's very simple to become an absentee voter. Look at the excitement and huge turn-outs we see in other countries when they have elections for the first time. People dress in their finest clothes, take their children with them to winess the historic event, and some even weep for joy.
> 
> Friends, what can we do to end this complacency? How can we increase voter turn-out? How can we live with the fact that the "majority" in some places is only a little over 10% of eligible voters?


It seems the more divisive the issues, the greater the turnout. We had very high voter turnout in Wisconsin for the June 6th recall election.
The other thing we found works is pounding on doors, arranging rides, etc. we talked less about candidates (sometimes not at all) but worked to get the vote out.


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## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

Craftylady, you are so on target. If we couple this complacency with the Republicans' determination to suppress voting, we face the greatest challenge ever. As we support one another in this forum to ensure an Obama victory, each of us needs to get in there at the local level so that we have a House and Senate that can get things done. Voter registration, education, and support on a one-to-one, door-to-door level is already happening in my small city. I get the same feeling of support and of hope for the future from participating locally that I get from most of you on this forum. Thank you all for that, and especially LillyK for launching these conversations.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Sherry1, I think it's especially important not to talk politics from a personal point of view when encouraging people to vote, but to get out and, as you say, knock on doors, arrange rides, etc. What's needed is a general increase in voter turnout so there are enough voters of all kinds creating real majority rule. A bunch of Public Service Announcements encouraging voting, and especially absentee voting might help, too. Absentee voting is much less expensive than setting up poling places. Maybe if more people knew this, that might also increase voter turn-out.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

ctknoll25 said:


> Craftylady, you are so on target. If we couple this complacency with the Republicans' determination to suppress voting, we face the greatest challenge ever. As we support one another in this forum to ensure an Obama victory, each of us needs to get in there at the local level so that we have a House and Senate that can get things done. Voter registration, education, and support on a one-to-one, door-to-door level is already happening in my small city. I get the same feeling of support and of hope for the future from participating locally that I get from most of you on this forum. Thank you all for that, and especially LillyK for launching these conversations.


I've heard it said many times that one letter to is worth a thousand speeches when it comes to influencing politicians and political groups. Let's add letter writing campaigns to our efforts to support issues, candidates, and to encourage voter turn-out.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

You are very astute to make this point, CraftyLady.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Happy Canada Day, July 1 to all our Canadian friends here. I love your beautiful national anthem. Sorry I did a double post.
> I would ask all of you to not copy someone's entire post as countrybumpkin did with mine. Mary Anne had asked where the name religious right came from so I posted that information here sourced from Wikipedia. country bumpkin put the amen at the end of the post. I am not nor ever will be a member of the religious right. Jerry Falwel wanted to create a theocracy in the U.S. the same as some Muslims have done in Saudia Arabia and other Muslim nations which is ruled by Sharia law. The religious right wants the same thing here so they can impose their beliefs both political and religious on all Americans. People like Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman are two of their favorites. It's OK for these two to be involved in politics because they take direction from their husbands like their Bible says. They couldn't get the man they wanted for the presidential candidate so they were forced to accept Mitt Romney. My observation is that they are going through a very tumultuous time. Normal for them was gold old boys white men calling the shots. President Obama and Hilary scare them to death. I know they do believe the Bible is divinely inspired so they take everything literally and they are anti just about everybody and anything that is unfamiliar to their way of thinking.
> Anyway, if you intend a post to be a response to someone else's post please start your post with that person's name and don't recopy their post. We are a rapidly expanding thread getting new people here everyday and we need to keep it simple. Thanks


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

It's hot here in Minneapolis and just about everywhere else. Keep cool everyone.


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## tired n' cranky (Aug 2, 2011)

Also, LillyK, your mosquitoes are the size of a VW Bug and they are hungry!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

tired n' cranky said:


> Also, LillyK, your mosquitoes are the size of a VW Bug and they are hungry!


I can attest to that! After all, they are the State Bird.They are nasty little buggers here this year!


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

I started to write the stuff below on the topic about Chief Justice Roberts recent decision, but ended up thinking it really belonged here and shortened it up on that topic. So, here goes:

Last fall I spent 43 days in Seattle while one of my oldest friends was in hospice care. His cancer got the best of him, and his friends and family did, too. He vowed there'd be a party in his room until he died, and every day there were musicians playing and singing, friends bringing good things to eat and a lot of love filling the room. There were showers of cards, letters and emails. A group of doctors came in one afternoon and said his room was the happiest one on the floor.

His son and I were with him when he died. I was able to spend many hours a day with my friend because he was in a VA hospital and there is a wonderful program called the Fisher House Foundation that puts up friends and family who live more than 100 miles away for FREE, and the accommodations are like the fanciest hotel you could imagine. There are 55 Fisher Houses in the US and one in Germany, with 22 rooms each, all located on hospital grounds. I had a room in one for those 43 days and my friend's son was able to share it with me for the three visits he made during that time.

That's what I call a great example of great health care. I am still idealistic enough to think that kind of care could be possibe in this country. I hope that health care will cease to be a political issue and become a matter of decency and respect for every person's needs. And, yes, I'm basically saying one of the things this country needs to become is a social welfare state.

I hear people say they want better schools, police and fire services, health care, and all sorts of things but the second you tell them they'll have to pay more in taxes they drop their beliefs like hot potatoes. There is only so much fiscal reform can do to make money available for what people want. We need increases in several kinds of taxes. Of course, we can all sit around and watch the infrastructure crumble instead, but that doesn't sound like a very good idea.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

CraftyLady I agree with you. I think many Americans believe all the things government provides just appear out of thin air. Nobody likes taxes but I am more than willing to pay mine because I like public education for everyone, post offices, roads, bridges, and many other things taxes pay for. I hope that healthcare for all Americans becomes a right not a priviledge. I hope the federal government will start a jobs program similar to the WPA that built and repaired many parks, bridges,etc. That way we could put many back to work for a couple years at rebuilding our infrastructure. Both of my Mom's brothers lived in the WPA camps, were fed, had a place to sleep and earned money. It also benefited my Mom's family because there were two less mouths to feed. We have to once again become a can do country and we can accomplish great things.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

LillyK, my mother, brother and I were just discussing how great it would be if this country had both the WPA and the CCC back again. What you said to me really warmed my heart. Thanks!! :thumbup:


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I, too, think there are a ton of government projects that could put people to work, but as long as the republicans are in command in the House, I don't believe it'll happen. Revenue would have to be raised, and you know how opposed to taxes the republicans are. Our infrastructure is "worn out" and we can barely get funds for highway repair!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I, too, think there are a ton of government projects that could put people to work, but as long as the republicans are in command in the House, I don't believe it'll happen. Revenue would have to be raised, and you know how opposed to taxes the republicans are. Our infrastructure is "worn out" and we can barely get funds for highway repair!


You hit the nail on the head, alcameron! Instead of wasting time with worthless hearings like the Eric Holder "sacndal", they could be figuring out how to get the money for our infrastructure. What really scares me is those people who say congress is doing a great job.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

My thinking was that we could redirect money from the war effort to putting soldiers back to work that are already home and also the ones that are returning. I belong to the Veterans group at the Anoka County unemployment office. The Veterans group used to be so small that they invited people who were related to a Vet. They also saw a lot of us 60+ who didn't fit in to the 40+ group and said if you are related to a Vet come join us. I felt at home right away. So many Vietnam vets and people returning who can't find work even with new incentives to employers to hire them. I also learned from being around these vets of all ages that most of them are speaking positively about Obama, though not all. It would be a good place for me to talk one on one with them about the upcoming elections. I am also going to write a letter to Al Franken and Amy Kloubacher this week to find out what they are willing to do to rebuild our infrastructure and suggest a program like CCC or WPA as a model. I need to do some research as I thought Obama or congress may have something in the works to that effect already. If anyone already has information on somthing currently in the works please let us know.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

LillyK, does the Veterans group have a specific name or website? I googled Veterans group and found a bunch of sites. I'd like to be able to check out your group.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

I just made a request for a new topic in the General Chit Chat part of the Forum, and will post this comment on the 3 sites mentioned herein. I was wondering if we could keep this thread, change the name to something more general like "Political Chat Cafe" and roll the "Non-Progressives...Join In!", "Supreme Court Justice Roberts Decision" and the new one, "Limbaugh" into one inclusive topic. I did this because I think it's hard to follow 4 topics and get a good sense of what people are concerned about, and to have a greater diversity in this topic. I know this will probably mean a lot of reminders about polite discussion. but what do you all think about my idea?


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## Catarry (Apr 10, 2012)

Hi, folks...
back on p. 52, Crafty Lady wrote about voter turn-out and what we can do about it. 

That's one of the questions this thread began with...remember the suggestion that we knit flowers and give them out as a voting reminder?

As the last 50 or pages have illustrated, getting out the vote is going to ask more of us than our knitting skills. 

So instead of getting wound up with provocateurs, how about we work on questions like these: 

First, do you know how your state handles voter registration? What kinds of efforts are being made to make sure potential voters are properly registered? This is party-neutral, and something you may be able to get started at your LYS.

Second, you can reach out to your local, county, state and national party organizations to find out whether they need help.

Third, separate from the Democratic party organization, you can search 'volunteer for Obama,' or something along those lines and you'll get back information on all kinds of volunteer opportunities.

As much as I enjoy the art of debate, it is way too easy to become distracted. The folks who have taken up so much space on this thread function as provocateurs, whether they set out to do so or not. Provocateurs, intentionally or not, drain energy, misdirect resources, and have an effect on the profile and reputation of the people who respond to them by provoking harsh and sometimes intemperate responses.
Let's renew our efforts to ignore them, gently.

As devoted as I am to theory and argument, I want Obama to win, and that is a matter of action, and hard work. IMHO, the utility of this Progressives' thread depends on how we harness our enthusiasm, conviction and energy as the election comes closer...how we work to make real what we hope will happen...not whether we can best our frenemies with our keyboards.

Oh, and we should have fun, too.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> I just made a request for a new topic in the General Chit Chat part of the Forum, and will post this comment on the 3 sites mentioned herein. I was wondering if we could keep this thread, change the name to something more general like "Political Chat Cafe" and roll the "Non-Progressives...Join In!", "Supreme Court Justice Roberts Decision" and the new one, "Limbaugh" into one inclusive topic. I did this because I think it's hard to follow 4 topics and get a good sense of what people are concerned about, and to have a greater diversity in this topic. I know this will probably mean a lot of reminders about polite discussion. but what do you all think about my idea?


Craftylady - Since I started the Progressives' Chat Cafe I will not change the name or include it with any other thread. It is here for valid discussion and I do not want it's content diluted with any other threads. Thanks for asking if we would like to be included but this thread will remain freestanding. As I stated when I started this thread we have objectives we want to accomplish through sharing ideas and not a free for all that all to often has side tracked us from what we are trying to do. You are welcome to visit our cafe whenever you like.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

LillyK, I will withdraw my request to create a new topic right after I finish writing this. I agree with you 100%. 7 hours ago when I was reading posts the "Limbaugh", "Chief Justice Roberts Supreme Court Decision" and Non-Progressives...Join In!" topics the lack of any real discussion, the rudeness, the name-calling, etc., didn't seem so bad. My idealism overcame my better judgement and I thought we could all get together to discuss the important issues that confront our country today. 

7 hours later, here I am, having caught up with the posts made so far today on those three topics and I deeply regret even thinking about, much less proposing one general topic for all 4 sites. My wild idealism usually doesn't get the better of me but it did this morning. 

You started a wonderful topic that I admittedly felt was a bad idea at first, but now I can hardly wait to read anything new in the Progressives Chat Cafe. There are real discussions going on here. There is a great deal of calm, informed debate taking place that's been steadily increasing since your topic appeared.

I hope I didn't offend you in any way by suggesting that the three topics mentioned above should be included in the Progressive Chat Cafe. You've started something valuable and constructive here and I applaude you for that.

Many thanks for your efforts. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Phew! Lilly, I'm so happy you declined a suggestion this be rolled into threads on topics including "Limbaugh." It was hard enough to get this one over the rough patches, disapprovers, skeptics, and what Catarry calls provacateurs, to the place we seem to be now with productive ideas for action rolling in from creative progressive people. 

I cannot overstate how uninterested I am in discussing Limbaugh or Roberts or wasting the energy required to ignore profoundly ignorant, mean-spirited anti-intellectuals who falsify identities and can't differentiate between fact and opinion.

Debate and controversy have their place, and progressives don't agree 100%, but it's time to focus on keeping Obama in office. The barbarians are at the gates.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Crafty Lady I'm glad you've changed your mind, but what is it you're going to contact Admin about? Had you already suggested a merger to Admin?

Any threads that appear have a right to their place, and even uncivilized ones make me happy to know folks are focusing on political issues.

We should do what we can and let go of the rest.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

MaryMargaret, yes, I had suggested a new, combined topic. Actually, I didn't directtly PM Admin but used the "Create New Topic" option. Sorry for the confusion. I think the Cafe is a great place and that reasoned discussion is increasing all the time.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Catarry of Yonkers, thanks for your lucid post and good suggestions.

I would like to add that, if one believes the Obama campaign, and I do, they need MONEY. No surprise considering who backs the right and, if news stories are correct, the flagging enthusiasm of pro-Obama demographic groups of the last election who are now disappointed some of the world's problems remain to be solved. 

Obama inherited Wall Street's wreckage, two wars, untold and unprecedented Bush horrors, and despite that has accomplished a great deal. Do I approve of his every decision, appointment, policy choice, compromise? No. Of course not.

That's no excuse for abandoning his Presidency now. Not only because he's earned another 4 years but because the alternative is too horrible to contemplate, and the right is more vicious than ever, and becoming more vicious every day, which is saying a lot given how vicious, amoral, vindictive, and false they've been for the last 40 years. (Do you remember "sweet" Barbara Bush calling Geraldine Ferraro a bitch? I do.)

I don't give much money to politics, ever, but have resumed giving the small sums I can afford to the Obama campaign. They make it easy if you just sign up for their mailing list. 

We ordinary folks need to step up to the plate in any way possible if we want ordinary folks to have a say in this country's governance, and that means giving what money we can afford. Romney backers give what they can afford, which is billions, and they intend to buy the Presidency just as they've bought the Congress.

Bottom line: Please give what money you can afford to the Obama campaign. If we all give our pittance it will make a difference against the Koch brothers and their new marionette, who is the best-looking model yet. Never underestimate the power of good hair on a handsome male politician.


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## tired n' cranky (Aug 2, 2011)

Funny story about my in-laws and Rush. My in-laws were coming to OK from Kansas City a couple of years ago. He is a conservative Republican although he hasn't always been. She is a liberal Democrat, lifelong. They had an agreement that he would not listen to Rush on the 6hr drive or she would fly down. Needles to say he didn't keep his end of the bargain. She reminded him several times of his promise but he just had to hear this little bit. Finally, she told him to pull over, why?, just pull over, and he did. She got out of the car and started walking and refused to get back in the car. Picture this, my 80 year old father-in-law driving on the shoulder of southbound I35, just south of Wichita following my 78yr old mother-in-law who is walking. A Highway Patrolman pulled up behind them, got the story form both of them and told my father-in-law to turn Rush off or be ticketed for driving on the shoulder! Mother-in-law said it was the most pleasant drive she'd had, he didn't speak to any of us until the next day!


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Thank you to LillyK on the "Chief Justice Roberts Supreme Court Ruling" thread and a private message from someone else for suggesting that I check out this thread, I will read through this, although I can't get through 54 pages.

I've nearly had temper tantrums from comments on the other thread.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Cath - Thanks for the ideas on what we can do. I have yet to see any campaign turn down volunteers. They will even train you in most cases if you haven't done this before. They need volunteers to man phone banks, do data entry,do door knocking, literature drops, put up signs, etc. There really is something for everyone to do. If you want to work for your local progressives up for election call them and if you want to work for the Obama campaign do that. If you are very ambitious do both. My husband and I worked on Obama's first campaign and got special seating along with other volunteers, when he came to Minneapolis We did have to wait outside in January along with thousands of others but it was well worth the wait. If you are not sure who to contact where you live let us know and I or someone else here would be glad to help you. If some of you have information for your state please post it out here for us to use. Thanks!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Thanks for checking us out Colorado Knits. Stop by anytime and jump right in to any discussions you find interesting.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Mary Margaret - Money is so important, sadly. I know we face an uphill battle but if everyone can chip in what they can afford please do so and if you can't afford it volunteer. I would like all of you to post some time this week one thing you will do to promote a Progressive cause. I put mine out here a couple pages back. I know it's hot and some of us are cranky but we have to start now. Next week I would like all of us to share what we will pledge to ourselves we will do to get President Obama reelected. Any questions or concerns you can PM me or someone else on the thread or post here. I know some of you are kind of shy so do what is comfortable for you. We all have to learn to "put ourselves out there" if we are going to do volunteer work so this would be a good safe place to start. 
I would like other's to post experiences that they have had volunteering both good and bad. Thanks ladies.
Forgot something - How many have you have seen presidential campaign ads where you live yet? In MN have seen 1 Obama ad and it was yesterday. We have seen several ads with a female doctor (actress) who is saying she is concerned that she won't be able to see her patients anymore because of "ObamaCare" and then there is Mitt saying he is going to overturn "ObamaCare" his first day in office. As usual, pull out the scare tactics. We can already see the inbalance in advertising money being spent here.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I am getting a clue that the group that started this thread are not even knitters or crochetors . You must be a group that as you say is pushing your own agenda. I have heard about this groups that push and bully their way into groups on the net. My prayers are with you because you are a sad lot. I am glad you did get it changed to talk about policics and religion. God Bless and have a great day because this is the day that the Lord hath made. I am going to rejoyce and be glad in it. God Bless our America!


Personally, instead of constantly hearing "God bless America," I would like to hear "God bless the world." We are not more special than people in other countries. All people count.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

http://www.ijreview.com/category/2012-news/page/24/

web site for the "Independent Journal Review" by Bert Atkinson Jr and Kevin Danielson. Source of the article cited by Sharky/grammaollie about Roberts and the Affordable Care Act decision.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Colorado Knits said: "Personally, instead of constantly hearing "God bless America," I would like to hear "God bless the world." We are not more special than people in other countries. All people count."

I concur 100%!


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> SHEBEARKUB
> 
> In what state were those images sent out, and by whom and to whom? When was it?


I remember seeing the first two of those. It was appalling.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Colorado Knits said: "Personally, instead of constantly hearing "God bless America," I would like to hear "God bless the world." We are not more special than people in other countries. All people count."
> 
> I concur 100%!


 Ok God Bless everyone in the Universe. Jesus died for us all. Don't want anyone to be left out of a Blessing from me.

:thumbup:


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> LillyK, I will withdraw my request to create a new topic right after I finish writing this. I agree with you 100%. 7 hours ago when I was reading posts the "Limbaugh", "Chief Justice Roberts Supreme Court Decision" and Non-Progressives...Join In!" topics the lack of any real discussion, the rudeness, the name-calling, etc., didn't seem so bad. My idealism overcame my better judgement and I thought we could all get together to discuss the important issues that confront our country today.
> 
> 7 hours later, here I am, having caught up with the posts made so far today on those three topics and I deeply regret even thinking about, much less proposing one general topic for all 4 sites. My wild idealism usually doesn't get the better of me but it did this morning.
> 
> ...


I was wrong about you, LillyK. You're no better than Sharky. I've read all the posts you made to her in the last few hours in some of the other political threads in General Chit Chat. Boy,was I ever wrong about you. Don't you know better than to stir up a snake? Sharky and grammaollie she may have been but she's just a troublemaking piece of vermin and you actually lowered yourself to her level. Have fun on the long climb up out of Sharky's sewer. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

To all of you out here in the Cafe. I have been posting on Sharkey's Justice Roberts thread. If you would like to read my posts there please do. My first posts a few days ago were very sarcastic. I referred to Sharkey as Snarkey and used the word crap posted as c__p and Sharkey told me it wasn't lady like to curse so I posted the dictionary definition of the word crap and used those nouns, adjectives to describe my opinion of what Sharkey was doing. I got a reality check from a couple of you who told me I was behaving badly and I was. I had let her anger me and by doing that she got the upper hand.  I went back to that thread today and posted again where I saw people asking questions of Sharkey about how the new healthcare law was going to affect them. Sharkey was giving them her opinion and calling it fact and getting these people all worked up. I responded respectfully and gave answers to them that were factual. I also suggested they read the law and find out for themselves what it was about. I said to some to contact me if they needed more information. I don't regret doing it. Sharkey also told me and a couple other Progressives out there to get off of her thread and back to where we belonged. KAT came to the rescue and posted Tabby's shortened version of the HealthCare plan which I think most of you have seen. Thanks ladies for doing that. They say speak truth to Power and I thought these ladies may see who is going to really take care of their best interests or not and instead of voting for Romney may vote for Obama if they knew the truth and they may be helped not hurt by this new law. I read others' posts there and did not comment on them because it would have been useless to say anything to them as they were hanging on to Sharkey's every word.
If CraftyLady were so upset about my posts why did she wait until today to come to the Cafe to voice her complaints about me I can come to only one conclusion and that is that she was upset that I refused to go along with her plan to combine several threads together including this one and let her have oversight. Also, we found out that she had gone to admin to ask that this thread be taken off the Forum and she was told no. CraftyLady can come here if she likes but if she wanted this thread gone what does that tell you about her motives. It speaks volumes to me and I will not acknowledge her posts in the future. If anyone has any questions about this issue please PM me or post. We don't need to be waylaid by such things.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Barack Obama was and is the Commander in Chief of the United States armed forces.
> 
> Get over it.


I just started reading this lengthy thread. I was on the Chief Justice Roberts Supreme Court Ruling thread and will still follow it.

At this late date, I can't read all the 50+ pages here, but I'm going through each page and reading many of them.

But, MaryMargaret, we still have not recovered from the Bush administration, and I'm fairly certain we never will. Sadly, the breadth and depth of the Bush damage will stay with us in ways, small and large, for a l-o-n-g time.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

[Here it is:

I do not think that any male should have a vote on anything at all pertaining to women's reproductive choices -- contraception, termination or continuation of pregnancy, or method of delivery.

For a woman, at an absolute minimum, pregnancy is a one-year commitment of her entire body and most of her mind, a potential risk to her physical and emotional health, and an extremely painful physical ordeal of 8-48 hours duration that, before Pasteur, was lethal to a significant number of women, and is still often life-threatening. If she keeps the baby, then that pregnancy is a lifetime commitment and a life-changer of immeasurable proportions.

This is without even mentioning the potential impact of a pregnancy on a woman's financial, athletic, or educational goals.

For a man, pregnancy is a pleasant 5 to 20 minutes of recreation.

Many men choose to invest emotionally and every other way in the children for which they are responsible. For men it is a choice.

Many women, including me, enjoy pregnancy, love raising children, and are grateful they can do this. For many women, including me, it is a choice. For many women, it is not.

I say this as a woman who experienced three planned, welcomed, and successful pregnancies and raised three healthy, robust, and successful children, is grateful for the privilege, likes and admires men, and had a committed husband to help raise the children

It all worked out well for me. I would have done the same with or without laws. I have no personal grudges or axes to grind. I just want to point out that the current laws and customs have no rational basis in my opinion.

The reason current laws are in place is very simple. Men have more power than women. Men want to control these issues. And they can, because they have more power. So they do.

But I do not think they should. In fact, it's ridiculous.

Imagine women having all control of laws regulating vasectomy, Viagra access, and condom use.

(I'm talking developed Western societies here. For this discussion I'm not getting into those societies in which women remain legal chattel.)

I am very interested in the opinions of reasonable people on this forum who can discuss the pros and cons of this position, whether or not they agree, in a rational and intelligent manner, especially if they have something original to contribute that adds constructively to debate.

Because maybe I'm wrong. Did I miss something? I will listen carefully to any reasonable thing you say that comes from your own mind and not from a third party.

Thank you for considering a contribution to this discussion. It's an issue that really bothers me and I often wonder, as I said -- am I missing something? Because to me it doesn't seem like a radical opinion. It seems like a no-brainer.[/quote]

It seems like a no-brainer to me too. I agree completely with all you have said. Men should keep their fat traps shut on the subject.

The old-boy network thinks that criminal sperm trumps women's rights.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Elizabeth Cady Stanton has long been a hero of mine.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Anne Smith said:


> Where did the label The Religious Right come from? I am offended every time I hear it.


I don't know where it originated, but a former coworker called it the Religious Wrong.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Sharky said:


> Anne Smith said:
> 
> 
> > Where did the label The Religious Right come from? I am offended every time I hear it.
> ...


Fortunately, most of us on this thread are not average Americans.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

LillyK said:


> To all of you out here in the Cafe. I have been posting on Sharkey's Justice Roberts thread. If you would like to read my posts there please do. My first posts a few days ago were very sarcastic. I referred to Sharkey as Snarkey and used the word crap posted as c__p and Sharkey told me it wasn't lady like to curse so I posted the dictionary definition of the word crap and used those nouns, adjectives to describe my opinion of what Sharkey was doing. I got a reality check from a couple of you who told me I was behaving badly and I was. I had let her anger me and by doing that she got the upper hand. I went back to that thread today and posted again where I saw people asking questions of Sharkey about how the new healthcare law was going to affect them. Sharkey was giving them her opinion and calling it fact and getting these people all worked up. I responded respectfully and gave answers to them that were factual. I also suggested they read the law and find out for themselves what it was about. I said to some to contact me if they needed more information. I don't regret doing it. Sharkey also told me and a couple other Progressives out there to get off of her thread and back to where we belonged. KAT came to the rescue and posted Tabby's shortened version of the HealthCare plan which I think most of you have seen. Thanks ladies for doing that. They say speak truth to Power and I thought these ladies may see who is going to really take care of their best interests or not and instead of voting for Romney may vote for Obama if they knew the truth and they may be helped not hurt by this new law. I read others' posts there and did not comment on them because it would have been useless to say anything to them as they were hanging on to Sharkey's every word.
> If CraftyLady were so upset about my posts why did she wait until today to come to the Cafe to voice her complaints about me I can come to only one conclusion and that is that she was upset that I refused to go along with her plan to combine several threads together including this one and let her have oversight. Also, we found out that she had gone to admin to ask that this thread be taken off the Forum and she was told no. CraftyLady can come here if she likes but if she wanted this thread gone what does that tell you about her motives. It speaks volumes to me and I will not acknowledge her posts in the future. If anyone has any questions about this issue please PM me or post. We don't need to be waylaid by such things.


When you started the Progressive Chat Cafe topic I thought it was a bad idea and a good way to get a lot of people to get into fights with each other. After a few pages of posts to the Cafe I found it to be interesting and pretty civilized, except grammaollie. I've made quite a few remarks people said they liked.

Today I had an unbridled moment of idealism and thought it would be a good idea if the Non-Progressive, Limbaugh and Justice Roberts topics were rolled into the Cafe. Yes, I made the mistake of thinking that the interesting and succesful Cafe was a good place to try to draw as many different people together and suggested a general title of "Political Chat Cafe" I never said I thought this was a good idea because there was anything wrong with the Cafe as it is, but you don't seem to have read the remarks I made in the last few pages of the Cafe.

When I read your exchanges with Sharky it seemed to me that all you had done was to encourage her to continue her ranting and raving. Several people have said it would be a good idea to ignore sharky/grammmaollie (and any other avatar she was using) for the very reason that there is no talking with Sharky that results in anything positive. I feel you wasted your time and baited her even though what you had to say to her was reasoned and polite. Sharky doesn't know how to be reasonable and polite.

After many years of knowing most people can't actually read because they don't know the meanings of many of the words they use, I am once again confirmed in my belief that whatever passes for teaching children to read has nothing to do with the definitions of words as they appear in dictionaries.

All I can conclude is that you neglected to read or couldn't understand the many positive posts I've made in the Cafe. I finally put together all I had read yesterday and today and went back to feeling the Cafe is a bad idea. I didn't lurk around feeling upset. Instead, I thought about what I had read and then expressed my opinion.I never said the Cafe should go away. I have no secret agenda. When you learn to read and can say what you want to about and to me publically instead of in PMs then you can criticize me.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Btibbs, I love all the "hissin, spittin & rock thrownin" that goes on as I don't have to check out exciting books from the library as I can just read this thread! This is excellent reading before going to bed - if you can as you want to read the next thread.

Keep this "H, S & RT going!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Happy 4th of July! I'll say it early as I'm guessing a lot of us will be out and about tomorrow. Have fun!


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

tired n' cranky said:


> Funny story about my in-laws and Rush. My in-laws were coming to OK from Kansas City a couple of years ago. He is a conservative Republican although he hasn't always been. She is a liberal Democrat, lifelong. They had an agreement that he would not listen to Rush on the 6hr drive or she would fly down. Needles to say he didn't keep his end of the bargain. She reminded him several times of his promise but he just had to hear this little bit. Finally, she told him to pull over, why?, just pull over, and he did. She got out of the car and started walking and refused to get back in the car. Picture this, my 80 year old father-in-law driving on the shoulder of southbound I35, just south of Wichita following my 78yr old mother-in-law who is walking. A Highway Patrolman pulled up behind them, got the story form both of them and told my father-in-law to turn Rush off or be ticketed for driving on the shoulder! Mother-in-law said it was the most pleasant drive she'd had, he didn't speak to any of us until the next day!


I LOVE your mother in law! And feel sorry about what she's stuck with!!!


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

MaryMargaret said:


> http://www.ijreview.com/category/2012-news/page/24/
> 
> web site for the "Independent Journal Review" by Bert Atkinson Jr and Kevin Danielson. Source of the article cited by Sharky/grammaollie about Roberts and the Affordable Care Act decision.


I would be interested in knowing more about the "Independent Journal Review" if anyone discovers something. It's a right-wing partisan place calling itself independent, but beyond that I haven't been able to discover anything, including who Bert and Kevin are.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Colorado knits said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > Barack Obama was and is the Commander in Chief of the United States armed forces.
> ...


Colorado Knits -- you are so right. And if Romney gets in, I shudder to think...


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Colorado Knits: re reproductive rights...thank you for your support. I like to think that one day when our society is more enlightened, this issue will be subject to a women-only vote.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Colorado knits said:


> Elizabeth Cady Stanton has long been a hero of mine.


Those early "suffragettes" were indeed heros. Without them women would never have achieved the vote, yet it didn't happen until long after they were dead. They were SO far ahead in their thinking and perception, and terribly punished for it, as forward-thinkers always are.

I doubt if many young people know how severely these brave, brilliant women were tortured, ostracized, and ridiculed for their work.

No matter how strenuously regressives hide behind euphemisms, it's fear of women's power that drives them, then and now.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Colorado knits said:


> Anne Smith said:
> 
> 
> > Where did the label The Religious Right come from? I am offended every time I hear it.
> ...


Love it! I need to remember that.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Janeway said:


> Btibbs, I love all the "hissin, spittin & rock thrownin" that goes on as I don't have to check out exciting books from the library as I can just read this thread! This is excellent reading before going to bed - if you can as you want to read the next thread.
> 
> Keep this "H, S & RT going!


Janeway: I love your attitude!!

Without the passion that attends these political issues we'd still be where we were in 1600. We'd be British subjects taxed by a monarchy without representation. Females and people of color would all be the illiterate property of white men. Our religion would be dictated by the state and the church would have all the money.

Getting out of bondage didn't happen because people were passive, polite, and avoided talk about politics and religion because those in power decreed they should.

Democracy is messy, confusing, and not always pretty. It just happens to be the only system, so far, that works.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

MaryMargaret said:


> Colorado knits said:
> 
> 
> > Elizabeth Cady Stanton has long been a hero of mine.
> ...


And guess who is related to Elizabeth Cady Stanton, your one and only 'Sharky', great great great granddaughter of D Cady, the current suffragette of the American People in the forthcoming election! Now put that in your pipe and smoke it!!

I've been so waiting for her name to come up!


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

MaryMargaret said:


> Janeway said:
> 
> 
> > Btibbs, I love all the "hissin, spittin & rock thrownin" that goes on as I don't have to check out exciting books from the library as I can just read this thread! This is excellent reading before going to bed - if you can as you want to read the next thread.
> ...


Yes, Mary Margaret Democracy is the only system that works, not Progressive socialism. Finally you have seen the light!!

Here's a site to help you:

https://m.mittromney.com/donate?sc=INTMCPG005&utm_medium=email&utm_source=et&utm_content=img_header_BelieveinAmerica%22&utm_campaign=1402353_260752_Gail%20Gitcho


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

From the 2012 Texas Republican Party Platform:

"Knowledge-Based Education  We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the students fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority."

It's remarkable this is written in 21st century US. It could be Torquemada in 1450, lighting the fires to burn as many thinking people as inquisitors could hunt down, Mao Tse Tung in the 20th century destroying Chinese professionals, Deng Xiaopeng mowing down students in Tiananmen Square, or Stalin and his Gulag for everyone with a brain. And Texas claims to love freedom.

Edward Everett, an American Republican predecessor who also abhorred Democrats, said, "Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army."

Gail Collins has just released "As Texas Goes". She'd been in NYC too long (tho from Ohio) and hadn't realized what she'd been missing until the Rick Perry speeches piqued her interest. She went to Texas for research and interviews and wrote a Molly Ivins-style book. Said to be very funny, I'm sure it is, she's up there with Nora Ephron, but a warning.

Gail blames Phil Gramm for the wholesale deregulation that led to global financial meltdown and says Texas's retrograde values influence national culture more than is generally understood. Back my daughter was in 2nd grade and I discovered the appalling 1950s Lippincott "readers" this highly-lauded school system used, the investigatory trail led me realize Texas controls the schoolbook industry. Texas in charge of education -- isn't that like Osama bin Laden as Pope or Ram Dass as Republican Party chairman?

A Texas-based reviewer, refuting Collins point by point: "She says Rick Perry is one in the series of nitwits we've elected governor," remarked, "well, we'd best duck that question." My understanding is in Texas the office of governor is not meant to govern but serve as marionette for oil interests. Must be true, given Bush and Perry. I would say the unfunded "No Child Left Behind" program proves Texas wants education that teaches people not to think.

Here's the whole platform:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/texasgop_pre/assets/original/2012-Platform-Final.pdf


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

MaryMargaret said:


> From the 2012 Texas Republican Party Platform:
> 
> "Knowledge-Based Education  We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the students fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority."
> 
> ...


As Texas Goes, So Goes the Nation! Go Texas!!

Yes, Texas does the schoolbooks, just finding that out are you? The books are very liberal based, so you can relax. It seems certain parts of history are being rewritten. My daughter and her husband have been reading the books as their children get them, they get unaltered more accurate accounts. Guess who helps? I've told you all that the current administration has the educational system in their pocket!!

When the current president was an Ohio senator his recommendation was to begin sex education at the 1st grade. And that doesnt 
mean 'you were born in a cabbage patch'.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Colorado knits, obviously you nave never met a man with any morials or ethics. Yes, the ultimate choice about abortion belongs to women. However, many men don't believe they are nothing more than arbitrary sperm donors. All the men who are friends of mine believe they are just as responsible for the actions of their sperm as every woman is responsible for the actions of her eggs. It takes two to tango and both partners in the dance of life are responsible for the consequences of of their actions. I suggest you think long and hard about what men feel about abortion. Men are in no way lacking in feeling even though they aren't the ones who will go through an unwanted pregnancy. My exprience of men makes all the arguments here about how irresponsible men supposedly are disgusting. If you're married, I feel sorry for your husband as it seems you can't allow him to be a complete person in your marriage.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Lest anyone be led astray, Obama served as senator from Illinois, as I'm sure all but one person on this forum is aware.


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## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> Colorado knits, obviously you nave never met a man with any morials or ethics. Yes, the ultimate choice about abortion belongs to women. However, many men don't believe they are nothing more than arbitrary sperm donors. All the men who are friends of mine believe they are just as responsible for the actions of their sperm as every woman is responsible for the actions of her eggs. It takes two to tango and both partners in the dance of life are responsible for the consequences of of their actions. I suggest you think long and hard about what men feel about abortion. Men are in no way lacking in feeling even though they aren't the ones who will go through an unwanted pregnancy. My exprience of men makes all the arguments here about how irresponsible men supposedly are disgusting. If you're married, I feel sorry for your husband as it seems you can't allow him to be a complete person in your marriage.


Craftylady, I never understood your early opposition to this thread. I believe now you might have been projecting on the rest of us your own way of responding. I found the above quote to be very offensive and unfair. Even went back to check if I'd missed something Coloradoknits had posted. I hadn't. How insulting to say every man in her life lacked morals or ethics. And to make that remark about her husband and marriage! Very offensive, especially so since you have absolutely no basis for those conclusions. Most of the posts here have been civil and I hope very much that Coloradoknits hasn't been driven away. This is a real embarrassment and I am very sorry. Please stay, Coloradoknits, you have so much to offer.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Sharky said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > From the 2012 Texas Republican Party Platform:
> ...


That was suppose to be Illinois, not Ohio --always get those 2 mixed up!, sorry for the mistake.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Sharky said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > Janeway said:
> ...


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

ctknoll25 said:


> craftylady49 said:
> 
> 
> > Colorado knits, obviously you nave never met a man with any morials or ethics. Yes, the ultimate choice about abortion belongs to women. However, many men don't believe they are nothing more than arbitrary sperm donors. All the men who are friends of mine believe they are just as responsible for the actions of their sperm as every woman is responsible for the actions of her eggs. It takes two to tango and both partners in the dance of life are responsible for the consequences of of their actions. I suggest you think long and hard about what men feel about abortion. Men are in no way lacking in feeling even though they aren't the ones who will go through an unwanted pregnancy. My exprience of men makes all the arguments here about how irresponsible men supposedly are disgusting. If you're married, I feel sorry for your husband as it seems you can't allow him to be a complete person in your marriage.
> ...


ctknoll25, your comments are right on. That was quite a leap, CraftLady.

Most (not all) men that I know *personally* have good morals and ethics and are responsible fathers. (Everyone has morals and ethics, some just are rather poor.) The issue does not belong in the political world -- that's where morals and ethics are missing. Those men should keep their fat traps shut. It's a personal issue, not a political one.

Yes I'm married; I've been married 50 years to the same man. My husband believes in the abortion law and thinks the decision belongs to the woman.

How I wish, as you say,CraftLady, that both partners are responsible for the consequences; sadly, we don't have to look very far to see that isn't always how it works out.

I have thought long and hard about abortion issues. We have adopted children and I honor those biological mothers who made a decision to give their children a chance in life that they could not at that time. I don't take abortion lightly, but I still support legal abortion.

I don't need politicians telling me what I can do with my own reproductive organs.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

MaryMargaret

You have championed on several occasions that we have a Democracy.  Just to show I am a friend...here is what you mean to say... we have a Republic not a Democracy.

The difference is very important... in a Democracy there is "no" safeguard of the rights of the individual...Majority rule is absolute!  In a Republic under a written Constitution the rights of minorities are protected.  
That is why our Constitution is very important.  You, myself and others may disagree in a forum, .but we all want to protect our Constitution. 

Our Preamble: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Happy 4th

Sharky


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

I say what I mean, not what someone else may claim that I mean.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

!


MaryMargaret said:



> I say what I mean, not what someone else may claim that I mean.


You tell her Mary Margaret. 
It's funny watching the 3 stooges (McConnell, Cantor and Boehner trying to explain what the GOP would provide for the 30million uninsured in this country and they all tripped on their tongues and spewed the same old rhetoric. In other words they don't have a plan.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Sharky said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > Colorado knits said:
> ...


Oh please!! Enough BS already


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

I know one thing the republicans would provide under THEIR plan!!! They would get to keep their federal healthcare, I'll bet. 

Illinois representative Joe Walsh said this about Tammy Duckworth. 

At a town hall this Sunday, Joe Walsh said of opponent Tammy Duckworths military service, Now Im running against a woman who, my God, thats all she talks about. Our true heroes, its the last thing in the world they talk about.

What a creep he is. He is also the one that owed child support and wasn't paying.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

54r


ctknoll25 said:


> craftylady49 said:
> 
> 
> > Colorado knits, obviously you nave never met a man with any morials or ethics. Yes, the ultimate choice about abortion belongs to women. However, many men don't believe they are nothing more than arbitrary sperm donors. All the men who are friends of mine believe they are just as responsible for the actions of their sperm as every woman is responsible for the actions of her eggs. It takes two to tango and both partners in the dance of life are responsible for the consequences of of their actions. I suggest you think long and hard about what men feel about abortion. Men are in no way lacking in feeling even though they aren't the ones who will go through an unwanted pregnancy. My exprience of men makes all the arguments here about how irresponsible men supposedly are disgusting. If you're married, I feel sorry for your husband as it seems you can't allow him to be a complete person in your marriage.
> ...


First of all, Coloradoknits, stick with the Cafe. There's no reason for you to think you are unwelcome here. As I understand it. the Cafe is open to anyone who wants to participate. For example, Sharky (aka grammaollie) has returned to the Cafe. I wish she hadn't but I can't do anything about that, and if there was something I could do to get her to go away I wouldn't do it because it is wrong to exclude people from the Cafe.

If you can't understand things I've said then you can't read and understand the English language. Understanding is not the same as agreeing. You are welcome to disagree with me if you understand what I've said. If you don't understand then keep your mouth shut and read what I've said until you do understand.

My original objection to the Progressive Chat Cafe was about how easy it would be for people to get into fights and treat each other badly. Then I paid attention to the Cafe and saw some real discussion going on and changed my mind. In the last couple of days I have read so much negative stuff that I returned to my original opinion and said so. For example, LillyK's exchanges with Sharky in the "Chief Justice Roberts Supreme Court Decision" thread have brought Sharky back to the Cafe just when she had finally been gone long enough that people were really getting into constructive discussion instead of having kneejerk reactions to her. Her chosen ID of "Sharky" is right on the money. She's a shark in the water and is only out for blood.

Several KPers have lowered themselve to bashing men, as if all of them are monsters. They aren't. Many men are just as agonized, for example, about the consequences of getting pregnant with a woman when the pregnancy is unwanted as the woman is herself.

Women marry to exploit men and use them for the money they can make. Marriage is basically legalized prostitution. I was in a long-term relationship with a man for 46 years (since I was 16) but I would never have insulted him by marrying him. We loved each other enough to respect each other as a human beings. The romance was there to the end. He died last year on November 26th. Fortunately, no matter how long I live here on Earth we will be together again in just a few moments.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

NJG said:


> I know one thing the republicans would provide under THEIR plan!!! They would get to keep their federal healthcare, I'll bet.
> 
> Illinois representative Joe Walsh said this about Tammy Duckworth.
> 
> ...


NJG - I saw video of Walsh trashing Tammy Duckworth today and I wasn't really surprised. He is a tea party darling and obviously will say anything to make them happy. She is a double amputee having lost both her legs when the Black Hawk helicopter she was piloting in Iraq was hit. He said she flaunted her injuries and because of that her sacrifice was not noble. This coming from a man who never served in the military. These are the kind of people that need to be sent home and we need the Tammy Duckworth's to replace them in Washington. I know she needs support as the Koch brothers have invested heavily in Walsh's campaign. Thanks for bringing her to our attention. We need to have a Congress that supports our President so he can actually carry out the will of the people. We have to get rid of the dead weight do nothings.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> 54rFirst of all, Coloradoknits, stick with the Cafe. There's no reason for you to think that anyone doesn't want you here. As I understand it. the Cafe is open to anyone who wants to participate. For example, Sharky (aka grammollie) has returned to the Cafe. I wish she hadn't but I can't do anything about that, and if there was something I could do to get her to go away I wouldn't do it because it is wrong to exclude people from theCafe.
> 
> If you can't understand things I've said then you can't read and understand the English language. Understanding is not the same as agreeing. You are welcome to disagree with me if you understand what I've said. If you don't understand then keep your mouth shut and read what I've said until you do understand.
> 
> ...


Well, gee-whiz. Where did that come from?


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

craftylady49 said:


> 54r
> 
> 
> ctknoll25 said:
> ...


Well, crafty, we have BEEN married 46 years in December. Do you want to see the marriage license? We have over 50 married couples WITH licenses that have been married just as long. You have such a sour attitude!


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

LillyK said:


> NJG said:
> 
> 
> > I know one thing the republicans would provide under THEIR plan!!! They would get to keep their federal healthcare, I'll bet.
> ...


Lily, how do know THE WILL of THE PEOPLE?


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Sharky said:
> 
> 
> > MaryMargaret said:
> ...


Well NJG, I could start with my grandmothers maiden name, Alice Cady. No BS there, you shouldn't be surprised at the genetics!


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

"Colordo knits "Well, gee-whiz. Where did that come from?" it came from reading what many people have said in the Cafe and many years of experience.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Sharky, your marriage license just makes it legal for you to be a prostitute, and depending where you live, just a piece of property.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

MaryMargaret said:


> I say what I mean, not what someone else may claim that I mean.


Well, you may think you do, but you don't.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Sharky, my attitude isn't sour, it's realistic. After you've spent some time in the real world you can talk to me about my attitude. Until then, have fun with your badly needed learning experiences.

You are the rudest, crudest, nastiest person I've encountered on the KP Forum. I know good and well that you used to be grammaollie and now you're calling yourself Sharky. Is there some reason you had to change your user name? What nasty thing did you do that required you to change your name here on the KP Forum? Must have been pretty bad...


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

craftylady49 said:


> Sharky, your marriage license just makes it legal for you to be a prostitute, and depending where you live, just a piece of property.


A pretty good piece at that, actually he's my property, lol


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

craftylady49 said:


> Sharky, my attitude isn't sour, it's realistic. After you've spent some time in the real world you can talk to me about my attitude. Until then, fun with your badly needed learning experiences.


What kind of learning experiences do you suggest? I think you've had a very hard life, and feel bad for you.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> "Colordo knits "Well, gee-whiz. Where did that come from?" it came from reading what many people have said in the Cafe and many years of experience.


From what I said??
Really, I read, understand, and write the English language quite well. I wrote for a living.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Sharky said:


> craftylady49 said:
> 
> 
> > Sharky, my attitude isn't sour, it's realistic. After you've spent some time in the real world you can talk to me about my attitude. Until then, fun with your badly needed learning experiences.
> ...


Crafty, what do you get when you argue with an idiot?
Two idiots arguing. Just ignore it. Sharky is trying to get under your skin and only that. It's not worth the energy to try and talk sense or to try and READ sense from this person. The only motive this person has is to start fights. With the heatwave all the nuts are falling out of the trees. 
Let's try to stay on topic and about the good we can do.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

craftylady49 said:


> Sharky, my attitude isn't sour, it's realistic. After you've spent some time in the real world you can talk to me about my attitude. Until then, have fun with your badly needed learning experiences.
> 
> You are the rudest, crudest, nastiest person I've encountered on the KP Forum. I know good and well that you used to be grammaollie and now you're calling yourself Sharky. Is there some reason you had to change your user name? What nasty thing did you do that required you to change your name here on the KP Forum? Must have been pretty bad...


Whoa, you must must be on the joy juice, I havent been rude, crude or nasty any of my posts, but you on the other hand, well your language speaks for itself.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> This sounds like a good way to get a bunch of people to disagree with each other and end up getting into nasty fights that have nothing to do with knitting or crocheting. Maybe you could start a blog somewhere else. I wouldn't touch this proposed thread with a ten foot pole. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


craftylady49

Excuse me, why that tone?


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Sharky said:
> 
> 
> > craftylady49 said:
> ...


Calling names again, it takes an idiot to know an idiot! Are you sure you want to call us that? What is your topic, I haven't seen one for ages!!


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> I say what I mean, not what someone else may claim that I mean.


Mary Margaret

some things are best ignored. There are no Pills for what ails some.
Ingried


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

NWG, I will indeed ignore Sharky from now on. I know she got some of what she wants from me. I just wish LillyK hadn't baited the old biddy into returning to the Cafe.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingreid, you are absolutely right.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Hi Ingried! Hows the health care papers going? I was watching the news today and I was almost in stitches watching Mitch McConnell getting a whipping over the healthcare plan. I have to say that after being asked the same question 4 times and fumbling all 4 answers, it's obvious that the Republicans don't give a hoot about the 30million uninsured here in the US.
Boehner got snippy when asked the same question by a different interviewer and Cantor was just blabbing nonsense. Now all that tells me is that they have no plan to fix anything as long as President obama is in office. I think it's time for people to stand up and protest this useless congress.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > I say what I mean, not what someone else may claim that I mean.
> ...


And if anyone should know, it's you, Ingried! lol


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Sharky said:


> Northwoods Gal said:
> 
> 
> > Sharky said:
> ...


Dear Ladies, 
some People are just born with thorns on their tongues and venom in the Saliva. Sharky is one of those.

We are already used to it. Ignore her


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Sharky said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > MaryMargaret said:
> ...


Sharky,
your old Friend is here. Enjoy!


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> craftylady49 said:
> 
> 
> > This sounds like a good way to get a bunch of people to disagree with each other and end up getting into nasty fights that have nothing to do with knitting or crocheting. Maybe you could start a blog somewhere else. I wouldn't touch this proposed thread with a ten foot pole. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
> ...


Yah, Craftylady49, we'd like to know why that tone?


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> Sharky said:
> 
> 
> > Northwoods Gal said:
> ...


You've tried that before! It didn't work, did it? History does repeat itself, but I've told you that before, you must have forgot!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

If everyone would stop responding to Sharky, maybe she would just go away. This is going nowhere.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Sharky said:


> Northwoods Gal said:
> 
> 
> > Sharky said:
> ...


How Nice!!


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Hi Ingried! Hows the health care papers going?


Hi old Friend.
Keeping me busy.

Wish I was a quintuplet. This forum is not the only one I participate in. Am busy with Classmates on a regular basis
as well and other work.
Having been around quite educated People in my professional Life I am now getting an education of enormous proportions.
I truly lived a sheltered existence. 
It's jungle out there. I am so thankful for the sane individuals 
still to be found here. I am SO thankful for those.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Obama's 2013 New Year's Resolutions:

Party with Secret Service one last time .
Pack up White House silverware.
Cut prices for Presidential Pardons. 
Fire up paper shredders.
Delete teleprompter porno. 
Flip off Hillary Clinton.
Get medical marijuana card.
Ask Chris Matthews for a date.
Throw Eric Holder under the bus.
Throw Joe Biden under the short bus


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Sharky said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > Sharky said:
> ...


TO :Sharky:
It should read: forgotten not forgot.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Sharky said:


> Obama's 2013 New Year's Resolutions:
> 
> Party with Secret Service one last time .
> Pack up White House silverware.
> ...


TO SHARKY:
Your Racism shows.
Nothing else actually expected. Be proud.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> Northwoods Gal said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Ingried! Hows the health care papers going?
> ...


Oh, me too Ingried, I'm so glad to know you all, too!! It is a jungle out there! ROFLOL


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> Sharky said:
> 
> 
> > Obama's 2013 New Year's Resolutions:
> ...


No racism here, I have very nice black Republican friends.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Sharky said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > craftylady49 said:
> ...


TO SHARKY;
please, I do not need your Echo.
Try to be original. I know it is hard since copying is your
mainstay but give it a try anyway.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Sharky said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > Sharky said:
> ...


TO SHARKY:
That Echo Chamber of the mentally creative again.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Sharky said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > Northwoods Gal said:
> ...


FOLKS:
Die ist als Kind mit dem Klammersack gepudert worden
und der Schaden ist fuer immer und ewig.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Sharky said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > craftylady49 said:
> ...


I wrote what you've quoted above shortly after the Cafe opened. As I have said many time recently. I followed the Cafe for a while, felt I was wrong in my original opinion and, after reading posts made in the last couple of days again think the Cafe is a bad idea. Admin should make it against the rules for anyone to discuss politics and/or religion anywhere in the Forum.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> Sharky said:
> 
> 
> > Ingried said:
> ...


And you said you were highly educated!

Too many verbs in the same tense?

#1 (permalink) Sat Oct 24, 2009 18:04 pm I forget" vs "I forgot" vs "I have forgotten" 
A: "What's the title of the movie you saw yesterday?"
B: "I forget."/"I forgot."/"I have forgotten."

Is there any difference among "forget" and "forgot" and "have forgotten" in this case?

I'm especially curious about "I forgot," because English grammar tells you it means, at least literally, that the speaker forgot the title at some point in the past and may or may not remember it now. So the logical conclusion would be that this form is not correct, at least to the ears of grammatical sticklers, because it doesn't address to the question of whether or not the speaker remembers it now. But I hear people say "I forgot" all the time. Maybe it's another example of the past tense being used in place of the present perfect (eg. "Did you eat yet?"/"Have you eaten yet") and they actually mean "I have forgotten" when they say "I forgot"?

Can anyone clear up my muddled mind?

#2 (permalink) Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:53 am I forget" vs "I forgot" vs "I have forgotten" 
There is no difference in intent in B's responses. All are common, and choice remains with the speaker and his/her habit of use. A native speaker does not 'mean' one verb form and use another. Grammar follows speaker use, not vice versa. Here, all 3 verb forms are used to mean that the speaker cannot supply the movie title at the moment.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> !
> 
> 
> MaryMargaret said:
> ...


Oh dear.
Observing Boehner's eyes? Has been doing a lot of crying.
Cantor a knife in Boehner's back since day one and the rest of the Republican crowd beating Boehner up on a daily basis.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Colorado Knits said: "Personally, instead of constantly hearing "God bless America," I would like to hear "God bless the world." We are not more special than people in other countries. All people count."
> 
> I concur 100%!


May I expand on that please. Since there are many Gods, may all of them bless all of us.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

You guys are all worn out and need a rest. Really need to get some new blood! 

Happy 4th, everyone, I have to go play Scrabble and Cribbage now, don't worry, I'll be back!


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> Northwoods Gal said:
> 
> 
> > !
> ...


You could only wish!


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Ingried said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > Colorado Knits said: "Personally, instead of constantly hearing "God bless America," I would like to hear "God bless the world." We are not more special than people in other countries. All people count."
> ...


 :thumbup:


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

I'm outta this here place and headed off'n to listen to some of the music of The New lost City Ramblers, Mike Seeger, Doc Watson, and Bob Dylan. All you kids try to quiet down and behave yerselves.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Dee - Are you saying race is not an issue or it is? Sorry, I'm not clear on what you are saying.


Dear People.

Race is the one and only issue.
It just eats so many alive that a handsome, decent, humane,
fair, caring and highly intelligent Man is in our House, the White House and is not all White. 
In addition his staff is diverse in color and gender, while
the Republicans think it should look like a white Men's Club.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Sharky said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > Northwoods Gal said:
> ...


Wish what or for what. Can you ever make any sense?


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Sharky said:


> You guys are all worn out and need a rest. Really need to get some new blood!
> 
> Happy 4th, everyone, I have to go play Scrabble and Cribbage now, don't worry, I'll be back!


Me and worn out? 
That is more than funny. Go play.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

The oh so Christian Mr. Paul Ryan did not even have the decency to meet with the Nuns on a Bus.
It is hard to look forward to being scolded for not doing what
the Bible tells him to do. Coward.
The two faces of Ryan.
Snake.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> I just made a request for a new topic in the General Chit Chat part of the Forum, and will post this comment on the 3 sites mentioned herein. I was wondering if we could keep this thread, change the name to something more general like "Political Chat Cafe" and roll the "Non-Progressives...Join In!", "Supreme Court Justice Roberts Decision" and the new one, "Limbaugh" into one inclusive topic. I did this because I think it's hard to follow 4 topics and get a good sense of what people are concerned about, and to have a greater diversity in this topic. I know this will probably mean a lot of reminders about polite discussion. but what do you all think about my idea?


craftylady49

I have given your proposal some thought and I think I like the separation.
Easier for me to file (actual files).


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Sharky said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > jheiens said:
> ...


MaryMargaret, we have a monarchy now, so when will democracy return?[/quote]

Sharky, in which Cave do you reside?


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> 2knotty2knit said:
> 
> 
> > NJG said:
> ...


If we would allow one Religion into our Government, we must
give that right to all Religions and since there are hundreds,
let the Circus begin.
There is not enough room in all of Washington to display all of the respective religious symbols. What a sight that would be.

Wonder how the Jewish People feel with all this CHRISTIAN screaming. Their silence has been deafening.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

They are laughing their hineys off, Ingried. At least the Hebrew religion stays solid. I thought a Christian was a Christian until this election year.Now we have far right wing Christians, Moderate Christians and Far Left Wing Christians. The Christians are politicizing their own Christianity.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> They are laughing their hineys off, Ingried. At least the Hebrew religion stays solid. I thought a Christian was a Christian until this election year.Now we have far right wing Christians, Moderate Christians and Far Left Wing Christians. The Christians are politicizing their own Christianity.


Nothing like fighting a War among Christians.. How violent that turns and how lasting those conflicts are, we know all too well.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Did I see a post here that said we are married prostitutes? I swear I haven't had any wine tonite (yet) but could swear I read that. What the heck?


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Did I see a post here that said we are married prostitutes? I swear I haven't had any wine tonite (yet) but could swear I read that. What the heck?


Well Northwood Gal, I had a glass and thought it was effecting me.
I have to go back and check that out again.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> Sharky said:
> 
> 
> > Ingried said:
> ...


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> Northwoods Gal said:
> 
> 
> > Did I see a post here that said we are married prostitutes? I swear I haven't had any wine tonite (yet) but could swear I read that. What the heck?
> ...


I believe it was Craftylady49 who said it. She said married women are prostitutes.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

How Nice!


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Dee - Are you saying race is not an issue or it is? Sorry, I'm not clear on what you are saying.
> ...


Ingried, you really need to drop the race card, no one believes it and it's not true. You would like to think its true because you have no other argument.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Here is something to get your day started--

You haven't mentioned the hundreds of waivers to exempt certain entities from paying for the healthcare insurance, Muslims, immigrants, unions, businesses (in Pelosi's and Reid's voting districts), just to name a few. Now if the healthcare bill is suppose to be so good, why are these entities being given these waivers. Could it be something you would call a bribe for election votes.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Sharky said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > Sharky said:
> ...


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Sharky said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > LillyK said:
> ...


If it is not true, Republicans please keep wispering in my Ear every time you mention something about THE BLACKS and you are afraid some-else may hear it and take issue with it, which they should because it is never anything nice or kind.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Sharky said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > LillyK said:
> ...


You stop the Racism and I shall have no reason to mention it.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> Sharky said:
> 
> 
> > Ingried said:
> ...


There is nothing to stop if it is not there. We know you, when all else fails you call RACE, just doesn't work here. He is a Maxist, and destroying our country while most of America slept. But a few have been awake AND are waking others. There are more of us than there are of you, we were the SILENT MAJORITY, but we are silent no more! You can call names, smear us, but we will never go away.

Happy 4Th to all those who live their country.

God Bless America


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

It's just possible an idea could emerge from this discussion that would help keep progressive ideas in the White House.

So I understand why a right-wing extremist would try to destroy this thread. Less clear is why a self-described liberal would do so.

Among the posters here are both a right-winger and a liberal using nearly identical tactics to shut down this conversation. The right-winger takes glee in it. The liberal crabs and vacillates but keeps returning so must find gratification. Both use sarcasm and ridicule, twist others' words, and manufacture controversy. It costs nothing to attack others anonymously, so they do. As specialties, the conservative posts volumes of propaganda as "facts." The liberal tattles to KP administration.

I have come to expect such behavior from the extreme right -- when a lifelong civilian publicly ridicules a veteran who lost both legs, I accept that extremists will do anything to add the executive branch of American government to the legislative and judicial trophies they've already bought. Why a liberal wants to suppress rational conversation I can only speculate.

This has been and could again be a productive discussion. Is it possible for sincere thoughtful discussants to speak "over the heads" of the destructive ones, ignore them, and continue to explore progressive options? There is no value in responding to deliberate barbs. Can we let them just lie there?

Amoral tactics do work. Witness the right's ownership of Congress and the Supreme Court. What can we do to save the Presidency? And this discussion about how to save the Presidency?

I appeal to the rationality and discipline of thoughtful progressives to withhold attention from the unrestrained attention-seekers on this thread.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Thought it was a good day to post this:

The Declaration of Independence

Action of Second Continental Congress,
July 4, 1776. 
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

WHEN in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Natures God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of HappinessThat to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. Such has been the patient Sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the Necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The History of the present King of Great-Britain is a History of repeated Injuries and Usurpations, all having in direct Object the Establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid World.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public Good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing Importance, unless suspended in their Operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the Accommodation of large Districts of People, unless those People would relinquish the Right of Representation in the Legislature, a Right inestimable to them, and formidable to Tyrants only.

He has called together Legislative Bodies at Places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the Depository of their public Records, for the sole Purpose of fatiguing them into Compliance with his Measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly Firmness his Invasions on the Rights of the People.

He has refused for a long Time, after such Dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the Dangers of Invasion from without, and Convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the Population of these States; for that Purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their Migrations hither, and raising the Conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the Tenure of their Offices, and the Amount and Payment of their Salaries.

He has erected a Multitude of new Offices, and sent hither Swarms of Officers to harrass our People, and eat out their Substance.

He has kept among us, in Times of Peace, Standing Armies, without the consent of our Legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a Jurisdiction foreign to our Constitution, and unacknowledged by our Laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large Bodies of Armed Troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from Punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all Parts of the World:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many Cases, of the Benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pre-tended Offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an arbitrary Government and enlarging its Boundaries, so as to render it at once an Example and fit Instrument for introducing the same absolute Rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with Power to legislate for us in all Cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our Seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our Towns, and destroyed the Lives of our People.

He is, at this Time, transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the Works of Death, Desolation, and Tyranny already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and Perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous Ages, and totally unworthy of the Head of a civilized Nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the Executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic Insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the Inhabitants of our Frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known Rule of Warfare, is an undistinguished Destruction, of all Ages, Sexes and Conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions we have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble Terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated Injury. A Prince, whose Character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the Ruler of a free People.

Nor have we been wanting in Attentions to our British Brethren. We have warned them from Time to Time of Attempts by their Legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the Circumstances of our Emigration and Settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and Magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the Ties of our common Kindred to disavow these Usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our Connections and Correspondence. They too have been deaf to the Voice of Justice and of Consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the Necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of Mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace, Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the World for the Rectitude of our Intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly Publish and Declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES, that they are absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political Connection between them and the State of Great-Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which INDEPENDENT STATES may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our fortunes, and our sacred Honor.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

I found this online in Psychology today. The reason I posted it is so we can see what kind of man Mitt Romney is. The right is trying to say this was a prank and comparing it to President Obama's self admitted use of cocaine in college and eating dog. I think the distinction between the two is huge. If someone uses cocaine or eats dog it affects their own body. What Romney did was Gay Bashing and he put his hands on another man's body and humiliated him because he made the decision he had the right to do this. Then he blamed his victim for his own horrible behavior. If you are discussing with people the reason you are supporting Obama and not Romney I think this is a good one.

Research: Romney's Anti-Gay Assault Fits Typical Pattern

Antigay behaviors common, enforce gender norms.

Published on May 14, 2012 by Karen Franklin, Ph.D. in Witness and reprinted in Psychology Today

Exposed for physical and verbal abuse of gay classmates during high school, U.S. presidential candidate Mitt Romney trivialized the incidents as "pranks" and "dumb things," and claiming not to know the boy he assaulted was gay.

To me, his response came as no surprise. This is precisely what most gay-bashers think and say, according to my research on the motivations of perpetrators.

In the first empirical research into prevalence rates of and motivations for antigay harassment and violence by noncriminal young adults, I found antigay behaviors like Romney's to be alarmingly commonplace. One in 10 young adults in the politically liberal San Francisco Bay Area admitted to physical violence or threats against presumed homosexuals, and another 24 percent acknowledged name-calling. The percentages were even higher among young men. The frequency of self-acknowledged antigay behaviors among a general population sample was consistent with victim studies in which large proportions of lesbians and gay men report sexuality-related victimization.

Like Mitt Romney, most gay-bashers with whom I conducted followup interviews insisted that they were not motivated by hatred of homosexuals. This despite the fact that many of their assaults fell within legal definitions of a hate crime. Many, like Romney, were instead acting as self-appointed enforcers of gender norms for male and female behavior.

Washington Post reporter Jason Horowitz was able to track down five former classmates of Romneys who gave similar accounts of how Romney led a "vicious" assault against a closeted gay classmate at his prestigious boarding school in Michigan. The victim, John Lauber, was "perpetually teased for his nonconformity and presumed homosexuality." Romney reportedly became incensed about Laubers bleached-blond hair that draped over one eye:

"He cant look like that. Thats wrong. Just look at him!" an incensed Romney told Matthew Friedemann, his close friend in the Stevens Hall dorm, according to Friedemann's recollection. Mitt, the teenage son of Michigan Gov. George Romney, kept complaining about Lauber's look, Friedemann recalled.

A few days later, Friedemann entered Stevens Hall off the school's collegiate quad to find Romney marching out of his own room ahead of a prep school posse shouting about their plan to cut Lauber's hair. Friedemann followed them to a nearby room where they came upon Lauber, tackled him and pinned him to the ground. As Lauber, his eyes filling with tears, screamed for help, Romney repeatedly clipped his hair with a pair of scissors.

"It happened very quickly, and to this day it troubles me," said [Thomas] Buford, the school's wrestling champion, who said he joined Romney in restraining Lauber. Buford subsequently apologized to Lauber, who was "terrified," he said. (Buford later became a prosecutor. )

Soon after the incident, Lauber disappeared, expelled for smoking a cigarette. He died of liver cancer in 2004.

Romney now
In defending himself, Romney told Fox News that he "had no idea what that individual's sexual orientation might be."

But that misses the point.

In my in-depth interviews with antigay assailants, all insisted that their assaults were not driven by animus toward homosexuals. Rather than punishment of homosexuality per se, their assaults on presumed homosexuals were aimed at punishing those who violated mandatory sex role norms. Boys who do not conform to expected gender norms are labeled very early on as "sissies" or "****" and subjected to merciless bullying. This peer policing is a very effective way of enforcing hierarchical gender relations.

By wearing his hair in a feminine manner, Lauber had violated the antifemininity norm that is part of the bedrock of traditional masculinity, which apparently dominated at the elite Cranbrook School.

Romney's verbal denigration of another former classmate, also a closeted homosexual, fits this same pattern. When Gary Hummel tried to speak up in English class, Romney shouted atta girl! at him, Hummel told the Post.

So, Romney's assaultive and bullying conduct was not so much to punish Lauber and Hummel for being gay as for being different, for having the audacity not to conform to his chest-thumping notions of manliness. This contempt for insufficiently masculine men is a core feature of our culture, helping to explain Romney's self-righteousness and his facile dismissal of his harmful conduct as innocent hijinks.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> It's just possible an idea could emerge from this discussion that would help keep progressive ideas in the White House.
> 
> So I understand why a right-wing extremist would try to destroy this thread. Less clear is why a self-described liberal would do so.
> 
> ...


We have been looking for "rational conversation" but detours are always in the wings.
So in order to get information to those who otherwise may never get the facts, we deal with it in whichever way necessary.
The right always wants to silence us with their bullying.
Look how they now even ATTACK the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. That should never happen but perhaps it will open his eyes wide as to what a large percentage of our Population and at present the President has to endure.
It never hurts until it hits home.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Lilly: Very enlightening article. Thanks.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Obama eating dog and doing drugs.
Romney's personal injuries to an other

Obama: eating Dog most likely was not his doing, it was a cultural thing.
Doing Drugs = stupidity of a youngster with personal consequences. With Bush it was alcohol.
Obama stopped, Bush continued for many years.

Romney: Intentional physical attack on an other in order to take rank over him. That ugly macho thing.
And that attitude still prevails. I am rich and you envy me.
Oh really?
I have rich Friends and you envy me.
Oh really?
I will have a 4-Car elevtor and you don't need a wheel Chair.
Oh yes.
I can and will fire you and like it.
Oh yes
I am not concerned about the very Poor.
Oh yes, we know.
Difference between rich and poor and he wants to keep it that way. Rank again. When you avoided the Military you want to make up rank somewhere I guess.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

LillyK

Thank you. I copied it and it confirms what other Experts have
said about this issue.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

craftylady49

I am seeing the remark "married prostitutes".
I am more than curious since I am married.
Please, fill me in, where did you speak of that? What page?
Ingried


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Ingried said:


> craftylady49
> 
> I am seeing the remark "married prostitutes".
> I am more than curious since I am married.
> ...


Page 57.
Evidently, we are hussies


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Colorado knits said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > craftylady49
> ...


I am treated very well by my husband and I do not consider myself a prostitute. My husband and I consider each other equals, a 50/50 partnership that benefits both of us and also implies we have responsibilities for ourselves and each other's well being. I don't think that defines a prostitute or any other progressive woman.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

[Page 57.
Evidently, we are hussies[/quote]

I am treated very well by my husband and I do not consider myself a prostitute. My husband and I consider each other equals, a 50/50 partnership that benefits both of us and also implies we have responsibilities for ourselves and each other's well being. I don't think that defines a prostitute or any other progressive woman.[/quote]

:thumbup: 
Yep, same here.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Colorado knits said:
> 
> 
> > Ingried said:
> ...


craftylady49
My husband and I have a totally equal partnership and it has been since day one. Even went Dutch before marriage.
My emancipation started with my Birth.
He is no Pimp and I am no Prostitute.
Why on earth did you come up with that?


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> Obama eating dog and doing drugs.
> Romney's personal injuries to an other
> 
> Obama: eating Dog most likely was not his doing, it was a cultural thing.
> ...


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## stirfry (Nov 3, 2011)

Chezl said:


> craftylady49 said:
> 
> 
> > This sounds like a good way to get a bunch of people to disagree with each other and end up getting into nasty fights that have nothing to do with knitting or crocheting. Maybe you could start a blog somewhere else. I wouldn't touch this proposed thread with a ten foot pole. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
> ...


dito


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

stirfry said:


> Chezl said:
> 
> 
> > craftylady49 said:
> ...


Who was it that called Women with husbands "married Prostitutes" = craftylady49 and you support her?


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Sharky said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > Obama eating dog and doing drugs.
> ...


Lily and Ingried and MaryMargaret, NJG, Northwoods Gal, your rationales are so extremely petty and insignificant compared to the actual BULLYING of Americans by Barack Obama. For years we have seen him BULLY the Constitution, saying one thing while doing the opposite, gouging American people and their children and grandchildren with taxes so high they will never be able to achieve the American dream. I watched the whole proceedings of the healthcare bill as it was constructed and crammed down out throats. He has Bullied and owns the automobile industry, has BULLIED and owns the financial system, has BULLIED and owns the education system, has BULLIED and Owns the Supreme Court, has not keep even one of his campaign promises (he lied to become President) So let's put the BULLYING where it belongs, right on top of head, HEAD BULLY of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA! He has BULLIED enough and taken our money to build his Dictatorship. He has BULLIED the Americans without them know knowing it. I've told all you Progressives before that this is not a democracy, but a Republic.

We Americans need to understand the difference.

Note that in a Democracy, the sovereignty is in the whole body of the free citizens. The sovereignty is not divided to smaller units such as individual citizens. To solve a problem, only the whole body politic is authorized to act. Also, being citizens, individuals have duties and obligations to the government. The government's only obligations to the citizens are those legislatively pre-defined for it by the whole body politic.

In a Republic, the sovereignty resides in the people themselves, whether one or many. In a Republic, one may act on his own or through his representatives as he chooses to solve a problem. Further, the people have no obligation to the government; instead, the government being hired by the people, is obliged to its owner, the people.

Obama does not own us, we own him, our tax money is not his to spend on what he choses, and it the obligation of the American people to get this Marxist out of our pockets and lives.

http://lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.html

http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/repvsdem.htm

There are multitudes of articles that reflect what I'm trying to tell you, please look these up yourselves. The Healthcare Bill is only a red herring to entice you and keep you UNAWARE of what is happening.

The opening of the Progressive Chat Cafe by sweet little knitting ladies. They have an agenda to keep the real truth about this administration from you.

Happy Independence Day!


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Sharky said:


> Sharky said:
> 
> 
> > Ingried said:
> ...


I not sweet, I im caring.
I ain't little, I am formidable.
Like my herring fresh, firm and with onions.
Ingried


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

SHARKY

I just read your derogatory remark again : "sweet little knitting ladies".

Time for you to exit, you just insulted every knitter.

Holy smoke, what are you sitting on?


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> SHARKY
> 
> I just read your derogatory remark again : "sweet little knitting ladies".
> 
> ...


You mean you are not a sweet little knitting lady?


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Sharky said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > SHARKY
> ...


!


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Ingried said:


> Sharky said:
> 
> 
> > Ingried said:
> ...


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

How Nice!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

What a great story to see on Cnn today. A group of very lucky immigrants were naturalized by President Obama at the White House on the 4th Of July. Very touching.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

NEJM on ACC...

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1206845?query=TOC


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Yes - Was very nice to see our newest citizens today, some of whom have already served in our military. Amazing people. I'm glad they are here.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Yes - Was very nice to see our newest citizens today, some of whom have already served in our military. Amazing people. I'm glad they are here.


I can tell you, becoming a Citizen is a feeling like no other. 
I studied everything I could get my hands on about
the history of this Country. I was determined to score 100%
and I did. And when I hear some people born here being all
confused about the Constitution, it makes me wonder how much they really care about their own Country.

FOR THIS IS MY COUNTRY LAND THAT I LOVE.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

C-SPAN Book TV had Rachel Maddow on this morning.She Wrote a great Book "Drift".
What a brilliant Women. 
And the Audience was fabulous.
I got chills hearing comments and questions from the Audience.
I am so proud of our Young. They are so much better informed than their Parents ever were at that age.
The future is bright, very bright.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Ingried said:


> craftylady49
> 
> I am seeing the remark "married prostitutes".
> I am more than curious since I am married.
> ...


craftylady49
I am so curious.


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## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> NEJM on ACC...
> 
> http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1206845?query=TOC


MaryMargaret, thank you. I think we can all agree that the JAMA is not a partisan publication. This should be read by everyone.

Have you considered posting it on the Roberts Supreme Court Decision thread? (I've mangled the name but I'm sure you know what I mean.) I think the active posters there should be made aware of this.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Ingried said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Yes - Was very nice to see our newest citizens today, some of whom have already served in our military. Amazing people. I'm glad they are here.
> ...


For a few years, I volunteered for the ESL program in our town. It was very rewarding. I worked with the citizenship class the last two years I volunteered.

They worked all day and came to class at night. Most started with learning to read, write, and speak English and worked their way up to the citizenship class.

I am glad to say that I am responsible for a few new citizens!

I loved those students.


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## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

Oops, got the publication name wrong. Not JAMA, but the New England Journal of Medicine. Still a high-quality, unbiased source.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Colorado knits said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > LillyK said:
> ...


To Colorado Knits

Thank you for your caring ways. Such Students will be forever grateful. And I assure you that your Name will never be forgotten. 
I know from many who have gone through such
lessons and their stories are always told with the greatest smiles on their faces. They have wonderful Anekdotes to convey about mispronunciations = this is none of those difficult words, why not pronounciations? It often brings one to tears with laughter.
English language difficult language particulary for certain cultures.

Thank you again.
Ingried


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Such a good night of reading with all this "rock" thrown, lots of "hissin" with a good CAT fight. Now, I will go to bed and be bright-eyed-and-bushy-tailed for tomorrows episode. Good night, all.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

ctknoll25 said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > NEJM on ACC...
> ...


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Ingried said:


> ctknoll25 said:
> 
> 
> > MaryMargaret said:
> ...


MARY MARGART
please post this at 
CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS SUPREME COURT RULING 
as well as
WHAT HEALTH CARE INSURANCE NEEDS DO YOU HAVE

I have been trying my hardest to inform some Folks.
Perhaps an other voice makes People more willing to accept the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth.
So help me God.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I wouldn't post anything in there. To much back biting and ugliness in there. They can keep it there.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Good grief! This topic has turned into Sharky's Soapbox Sideshow. I guess there are freaks everywhere and this is where freaky Sharky displays herself. I'm sick of it. Sharky, get a hobby, see a shrink, get on the right meds. Do whatever it takes to get over your diarrhea of the mouth.


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## Llamedos (Jul 4, 2012)

Ingried said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > ctknoll25 said:
> ...


God bless your pomposity


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Sharky, I am sitting here quite calmly. You seem to be using this topic, "Non-Progressives...Join In", "Limbaugh" and "Chief Justice Roberts Supreme Court Decision" as if they were your own personal soapboxes.

Please stop this unpleasant behaviour and go away. You'd be doing a lot of us a lot of good that way


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

I would politely like to ask all of you who refer to other's threads in the cafe to please go to those threads and make your comments to those individuals there. That is not the purpose of this forum. Thank you.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Ingried said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Dee - Are you saying race is not an issue or it is? Sorry, I'm not clear on what you are saying.
> ...


I am so envious of you Americans. Your democratically-elected leader is the coolest man I've ever seen. You should treasure him.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > LillyK said:
> ...


aw9358 - Thank you - and yes we do treasure him and will work hard to see that he is returned to office for 4 more years.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> Sharky, I am sitting here quite calmly. You seem to be using this topic, "Non-Progressives...Join In", "Limbaugh" and "Chief Justice Roberts Supreme Court Decision" as if they were your own personal soapboxes.
> 
> Please stop this unpleasant behaviour and go away. You'd be doing a lot of us a lot of good that way


Lilly K, I posted my message to Sharky on all 4 political discussion topics because the same thing is happening on all 4 topics. I don't think I've referred here to any of the other 3 political topics unless it was relecant to what I said here, and will do so again ] if it's relevant. What was it I heard about free speech" Oh, yeah, we all have the right to it.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Another point of discussion for Progressives is highlighted by Joe Biden's speech in New Orleans. We can point out to our friends and neighbors the very regressive ideas the Republicans are promoting and how damaging Romney could be to the make up of the Supreme Court if elected especially with regard to women and minorities. This article was published in today's Huffington Post.

Joe Biden's speech to National Association of Black Journalists at their annual convention

NEW ORLEANS  Vice President Joe Biden hammered on some of President Barack Obama's re-election themes at a conference for black media professionals, casting this fall's election as a referendum on the country's character.

"This is about more than the economy -- it's about who the hell we are," Biden told members of the National Association of Black Journalists at their annual convention. Biden returned repeatedly to the idea of shared national sacrifice, and said an additional tax cut for the highest earners would make poor and middle-class Americans feel like they were being used. "There's only one group of people who hasn't had to give up anything," he said, referring to the wealthy. 

Biden criticized Republicans for not cooperating with the president's proposals, which he said included many that the GOP had supported in the past. "This ain't your father's Republican Party," he said.

Biden tailored his speech to his audience, mentioning Obama administration policies that particularly benefited blacks, including the expansion of Pell Grants, which help low-income students pay for college, and the president's signature health care law, which Biden said extended health coverage to 8 million African Americans. He suggested that African Americans and women would fare more poorly if Republican challenger Mitt Romney wins. "Imagine what the Supreme Court will look like after three years of a Romney presidency," Biden said. "Imagine what it will mean for traditional civil rights, women's rights and so much more." 

But even as he cast Romney as regressive on social and economic issues, Biden called him an "honorable man" and praised the Romney family for the way they have dealt with Ann Romney's health.

There was friendly applause from the audience of several hundred throughout Biden's speech. One of the NABJ organizers said 2,200 people registered for the convention.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> craftylady49 said:
> 
> 
> > Sharky, I am sitting here quite calmly. You seem to be using this topic, "Non-Progressives...Join In", "Limbaugh" and "Chief Justice Roberts Supreme Court Decision" as if they were your own personal soapboxes.
> ...


CraftyLady - What does this post have to do with the Progressives' Chat Cafe. I don't see anything in the post as a topic of discussion or a meaningful commentary and I will ask you once again politely to not post here unless you have a topic of discussion that is of significance to this thread or a reply to someone else's post where you are promoting the intent of this thread. Please be respectful to the posters here who are trying to have a legitimate discussion. Thank you.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

LillyK did you make any progress with your crocheting?
I knitted 3 Frogs for Neighbor Kid's Birthdays, cute little things.
Wish you a comfortable day.
Ingried


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Crafty lady didn't say it -- she mentioned that it was posted. she never said she agreed with it.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I thought it was decided that we would not bother answering Sharky as she or he or whoever doesn't make much sense-- I have been away for nearly a week and Lily, thanks for trying to keep things on an even keel. 

Keep up the good work --


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Joey,
Why not just post in Sharky's thread. We don't want the pettiness here. It's old already. Sharky has the best antagonistic threads here. I think you will fit in just fine over there.
CraftyLady, WTH? One post you are against this thread, next you change your mind, then go behind the original creator of this thread and ask to have it combined with 3 other threads? 
I am with Lilly here. Positive discussions mean a lot more and give food for thought. Antagonistic posts just provide fuel for fights. Not the intention for this thread from the beginning.
Designer, nice to see you are back.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Hi Patty and Designer - Designer hope you had a wonderful holiday. Are you going to post any photos? Welcome back to the forum.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Manchester:

I am so envious of you Americans. Your democratically-elected leader is the coolest man I've ever seen. You should treasure him.

Thank you. We do treasure him and feel fortunate. And proud to be American again.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Joey,
> Why not just post in Sharky's thread. We don't want the pettiness here. It's old already. Sharky has the best antagonistic threads here. I think you will fit in just fine over there.
> CraftyLady, WTH? One post you are against this thread, next you change your mind, then go behind the original creator of this thread and ask to have it combined with 3 other threads?
> I am with Lilly here. Positive discussions mean a lot more and give food for thought. Antagonistic posts just provide fuel for fights. Not the intention for this thread from the beginning.
> Designer, nice to see you are back.


Aahh you of all people gave me a complement, how sweet you are!


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Manchester:
> 
> I am so envious of you Americans. Your democratically-elected leader is the coolest man I've ever seen. You should treasure him.
> 
> Thank you. We do treasure him and feel fortunate. And proud to be American again.


THANK YOU.
for your kind Words about our President.
We who embrace value, treasure him greatly.
And I am so happy hearing such wonderful words about him from around the World. I hear it daily.
It will be hard for anyone in the future to top him in any way.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Matt Zeller was on MSNBC today talking about a book he wrote since his return from Afghanistan. 
Watches Without Time is a compilation of the emails and letters he sent home to family and friends during that period-- so that, as he writes in the Preface, "should anything have ever happened to me, they would know what I went through." The one statement that stood out to me was that the military spent lots of time training me and teaching me how to kill, but only 5 days after I got home I was suppose to put that all aside and know how to live at home. 
I think Watches Without Time would be a good book to read.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Remember this one?

"Suppose they gave a war and nobody came."

If women control reproduction, how will old white men have enough young men to fight their wars?


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

NJG said:


> Matt Zeller was on MSNBC today talking about a book he wrote since his return from Afghanistan.
> Watches Without Time is a compilation of the emails and letters he sent home to family and friends during that period-- so that, as he writes in the Preface, "should anything have ever happened to me, they would know what I went through." The one statement that stood out to me was that the military spent lots of time training me and teaching me how to kill, but only 5 days after I got home I was suppose to put that all aside and know how to live at home.
> I think Watches Without Time would be a good book to read.


Thank you NJG.
The damage done to so many young Women and Men will be felt for decades to come.
There seems to be such a division between the Leaders in the
Military and the enlisted Soldiers when it comes to discussing
psychological problems. And there now is a lot of it that neds to b addressed.
We must work on changes to help these Soldiers heal.
I am not even sure if the Professionals are properly equipped
to treat adequately. 
What the Soldiers serving in Iraq and Afghanistan have gone through is so different from the experiences in most other Wars.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Remember this one?
> 
> "Suppose they gave a war and nobody came."
> 
> If women control reproduction, how will old white men have enough young men to fight their wars?


Dear People.
We need new rules.
He who starts and votes for War MUST serve in the trenches,
no exceptions.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Ingried said:


> NJG said:
> 
> 
> > Matt Zeller was on MSNBC today talking about a book he wrote since his return from Afghanistan.
> ...


He also told of using up all of his hand grenades and putting in an order for some more and I wish I could remember the exact time he said, but I don't. It took many months for him to be resupplied with grenades. No excuse for that.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

What do you ladies think about men and women having to do mandatory service to the country in some capacity be it in the military, teaching, nurses, doctors, etc. Some of our friends from foreign countries said they are required to vote. What do you think?


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

LillyK said:


> What do you ladies think about men and women having to do mandatory service to the country in some capacity be it in the military, teaching, nurses, doctors, etc. Some of our friends from foreign countries said they are required to vote. What do you think?


I am all for it. 
In Switzerland everyone MUST serve. If one refuses, it is just about impossible to get hired for any job.
Believe me everybody serves. It is an honour.
And the Men continue to serve periodically throughout their Life.
I am not sure about the Women at this time. Will ask tomorrow.
In some other European Countries if you refuse Military Service you have to serve in Hospitals or Nursing Homes.
Why not?


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > Remember this one?
> ...


So Obama needs to go to Kuwait?


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> NJG said:
> 
> 
> > Matt Zeller was on MSNBC today talking about a book he wrote since his return from Afghanistan.
> ...


 What other wars are you talking about?


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

craftylady49 said:


> Good grief! This topic has turned into Sharky's Soapbox Sideshow. I guess there are freaks everywhere and this is where freaky Sharky displays herself. I'm sick of it. Sharky, get a hobby, see a shrink, get on the right meds. Do whatever it takes to get over your diarrhea of the mouth.


Craftylady49, you have most foul mouth on the whole forum. I would bet your time here is marked.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Northwoods Gal said:


> I wouldn't post anything in there. To much back biting and ugliness in there. They can keep it there.


Gollies, guess who did all the ugliness and backbiting. It wasn't me, your posts speak for themselves as they do on whatever thread you are on.


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## Isa53 (Jul 19, 2011)

Sharky said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > MaryMargaret said:
> ...


Sounds like good place to send him!!!


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Several issue here:

1. Here is JFK's take on serving in the military. "A young man who does not have what it takes to perform military service is not likely to have what it takes to make a living. Todays military rejects include tomorrows hard-core 
unemployed." John F. Kennedy

Hopefully, most of you will remember JFK and his service in WW2. This quote is in reference to the ongoing build up in Viet Nam. Again, it was the progressive liberal LBJ who enjoyed a plurality in Congress...just like Obama did in his first two years in office...THAT IS RIGHT. LBJ COULD HAVE AVOIDED THE VIETNAM WAR AND OBAMA COULD HAVE BROUGHT ALL THE TROOPS HOME UPON TAKING OFFICE AS HE PROMISED. THE OBAMA "SURGE" HAS BADLY EXPOSED HIS TROOPS IN AFGHANISTAN BY ANNOUNCING THEIR WITHDRAWAL IN 2014. AS I WRITE, OBAMA IS DEPLOYING 13,500 TROOPS TO KUWAIT AND AN UNSPECIFIED NUMBER to ISRAEL.

2. I have to ask...is there a team effort here? LillyK smears and Ingried 'baits" ?
I mentioned the liberal progressive formula for "suppressing" opposing views or even mentioning a specific issue..."Smear and avoid it." 

3. Now Ingried would have us believe there is some reason for us to accept her views...her latest "bait" has to do "with a division between military leaders and enlisted soldiers...discussing psychological problems...not sure if the professionals are properly equipped...serving in Iraq and Afghanistan is so different from other wars." See her complete comments above.

Ingried the time for you has come to explain why anyone who is inexperienced in these military topics should believe you! 

You have "tripped" yourself up again. If you had read earlier posts you would know that my DH is career military and that our close friend and my DH's roommate from West Point is the Director of the VA...Rick Shinseki. Rick was appointed to his position by Obama. 

As I noted before, other readers are on to your ploys...my PM page is full expressions of support for me and disgust for you and the others of ilk...most are listed earlier in one of my posts; Lilly, Nancy, NJG, MaryM, and CEO of etc.

Most of us are interested in a serious debate of relevant issues. I know from recent experience...you and those listed are not. I respond only because of the encouragement I receive from others on my PM page...in turn it offers them a reason to stay on this thread and the forum. 

All this has been posted before. How many visits have you and your "pals" made to VA centers? How many military reunions have you attended which would provide you face to face knowledge of the suffering of troops and their famiies in all these needless wars...most of which were authorized by progressive liberals. There are millions of people alone who are suffering from the effects of Agent Orange...the decision to "dump"this POISON on US troops and Vietnamese civilians...and the NVA combatants was made by a liberal progressive Commander In Chief of all military forces...and LBJ was not playing golf.

Ingried, you have displayed your lack of knowledge on the economic issues of health insurance...and yes, my DH's post military career work involved providing
Health coverage to "real" middle class employees...now you have moved on to military issues. 

Sorry, you have been outclassed...it is all here for others to read and understand.





Ingried the time for you has come to explain why any one who is inexperienced in these military topics should believe you! 

You have "tripped" yourself up again. If you had read earlier posts you would know that my DH is career military and that our close friend and my DH's roommate from West Point is the Director of the VA...Rick Shinseki. Rick was appointed to his position by Obama. 

As I noted before, other readers on to your ploys...my PM page is full expressions of support for me and disgust for you and the others of ilk...most are listed earlier in one of my posts; Lillyy, Nancy, NJG, MaryM, and CEO of , etc.

Most of us are interested in a serious debate of relevant issues. I know from recent experience...you and those listed are not. I respond only because of the encouragement I receive from others on my PM page...in turn it offers them a reason to stay on this thread and the forum.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

LillyK said:


> What do you ladies think about men and women having to do mandatory service to the country in some capacity be it in the military, teaching, nurses, doctors, etc. Some of our friends from foreign countries said they are required to vote. What do you think?


Oh, Lilly, for many years I have wished passionately that one year of national service were required of youngsters immediately after high school graduation, with provision also for those who don't graduate from HS. No exceptions.
Among the gifts this would give young people:

- time to mature
- an introduction to the concept of service
- news flash: they're not the center of the universe
- experience working in the real world and as part of a group
- avoidance of the waste of the freshman year in college, a too-frequent occurrence
- acquisition of at least rudimentary job skills
- learning how to get up in the morning and hit it -- every day
- avoidance of the stigma of not going to college, if they're not and their classmates are
- a uniform would lessen the emphasis on "the right clothes"


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Hi Patty and Designer - Designer hope you had a wonderful holiday. Are you going to post any photos? Welcome back to the forum.


I Wasn't sure whether I should post pictures I took on this 
forum -- maybe it would be a nice change from some of the 
off topic posts and unkindness from a couple of people. Lily, I won't post pics unless you think I should. It appears as if there are enough people going off topic. I don't want to be one of them.grin.

It is nice to be back --

Lily has asked us so nicely, and so often, to keep to the discussion - and not get side tracked in personal attacks and 
one upmanship. I just read back to the weekend, and it seems
that people are 'fighting' and making nasty posts, which isn't what this forum is about.

I would suggest once again to please avoid nasty replies to those we don't agree with. I still think it is best to just ignore
the couple of troublemakers who insist on trying to take over this topic. The more we acknowledge them, the more power they get. Lets just keep to the subject at hand.

I hope none of you are suffering in the heat and I hope the fires in Colorado are under control. Designer


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> NJG said:
> 
> 
> > Matt Zeller was on MSNBC today talking about a book he wrote since his return from Afghanistan.
> ...


It is just unbelievable that 
- some soldiers have to buy their own safety equipment
- getting proper care when they get back is either impossible or snarled in red tape
- Bush forbid photographs of caskets coming into Delaware and wouldn't write letters to bereaved families


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Patty and Designer - Designer hope you had a wonderful holiday. Are you going to post any photos? Welcome back to the forum.
> ...


Thank you very much for your comments, Designer.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Lilly, thank you for your report on Biden's speech.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I just realized it was lily who asked if I had taken some pictures. 

I am attaching two -- one taken out our window this past winter - hopefully it will help you feel cooler - (and cooler heads might prevail" grin.

The other is to me the Most beautiful spot in the world. Mount Rundle in Banff National park. DH and I sat at a picnic table and had our lunch here -- I thought of all my KP friends and the heat, and storms and thought how lucky I am to be with my hubby, in this beautiful place. I wish those of you who are dealing with floods, heat and fire, could spend some time in the exact same spot.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Colorado knits said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > LillyK said:
> ...


What a cool experience.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Designer, thanks for the beautiful picture, for thinking of us and wishing us well while you there.

O, Canada!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Beautiful Pictures! Thanks for sharing, Designer!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Getting back to doing a service for your country, I remember President Obama in one of his campaign speeches a few years back mentioned an idea that those who want to go to college but couldn't afford the tuition could get a gov't loan and do 4 years of public service here in America to pay it off. What are your thoughts, fellow progressives?


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Getting back to doing a service for your country, I remember President Obama in one of his campaign speeches a few years back mentioned an idea that those who want to go to college but couldn't afford the tuition could get a gov't loan and do 4 years of public service here in America to pay it off. What are your thoughts, fellow progressives?


I think that is an awesome idea and I also like the idea of being required to vote. I think it is every ones duty to vote.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Yes, NJG, I agree with it being a civic duty to vote. Those who don't , think that their vote doesn't count. If they only knew...


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > What do you ladies think about men and women having to do mandatory service to the country in some capacity be it in the military, teaching, nurses, doctors, etc. Some of our friends from foreign countries said they are required to vote. What do you think?
> ...


To Mary Margaret

I think that your ideas are outstanding.
I am also quite sure that many young People would not object
to it. My experence with them is that if given any chance they
will grab it. If young People are approached with respect and given good reason, they respond in kind.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > NJG said:
> ...


To MaryMargaret
Not showing the return of the Fallen when the ultimate sacrifice has been made is despicable. An Honor Guard should have been receiving the bodies.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > LillyK said:
> ...


Anyone 17 and older can enlist in any of the services (could be a problem if they had trouble with the law during their teen years) The pay is good for an 17 year old, and they can earn a college education. It's in the parents court to urge their high school graduates to serve their country. Of course if their academics are great, they could go to anyone of the service academies 'free' --this one tax I like to pay as taxpayers foot the bill. They need to begin the application process in their junior year. Could use their summers as aids to congressmen to get to know them and either get sponsored by a congressman (senators get 2 slots and congressmen get 1 slot each year or try to get a presidential nomination. All service academies take both men and women. There is a cost of a few thousand at the beginning to pay for uniforms. They get medical, dental, and a little extra money each month. They get one of the best educations possible. They do have to 'pay' back Uncle Sam with 5 or 6 years of service, even after that depending on qualifications, they can get a Masters Degree while on active duty and still get their monthly pay.

The opportunities for women in the services is constantly expanding, women are now allowed to be ground troops, go to Ranger School, Airborne School after they finish West Point. Don't know anything about what the other academies do. Housing has greatly improved for newly graduated 2nd lts.

Because Obama is cutting the defense budget by 495B over the next 10 years, I don't know what impact that has on recruiting since he wants to cut personnel.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

/When a Fallen Canadian soldier arrives home - they arrive at Trenton Air Force base -- the families meet the plane, Government officials are there -- the Prime Minister if possible or another High ranking member of our Government. 

The hearse leads a procession from Trenton. Ontario -I believe to Toronto where they are sent to the place the family requests.

Canadians line up along the highway, also standing on bridges, waving Canadian flags. All our fallen armed forces are met at the same base and are driven along the "Highway of Honor" Or 'Highway of Heroes" I will check to make sure that is what it is called) They are saluted by School Children, veterans and ordinary citizens sometimes hundreds of people. It is very moving and I have seen family members interviews and they are so thankful that they can welcome their family member home. The country welcomes them home. It is very moving. 

It is shown on TV and the whole Country watches it. As the discussion is about this, I thought I would describe the way we do it in Canada. The bodies are then flown home for burial I believe. (I will check out my facts tomorrow to make sure I have called the Highway the proper name. We have not lost the large numbers of soldiers here, that you have lost so that might 
be difficult for your country and I believe your fallen armed forces are arriving at different places but it is a wonderful ceremony at the plane and the drive along the highway is 
so moving.

It is very moving. The family stands in front of the hangar when the body is removed from the plane and placed in the hearse. they then go and stand at the hearse and place roses on the coffin. they drive in the procession too. On one occasion I remember - we had 5 or 6 arrive in the same plane - it was bitter cold and the families all stood in line and one family at a time went to the hearse and touched the coffin. I cried the whole time I watched it. 

Shirley - Designer


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## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

Designer, welcome back. I, too, have missed you. Sorry you came back to so much unpleasantry. I agree that no response is the way to deal with the troublemakers' lies and distortions. 

Your lovely pictures were a welcome diversion. I logged on to them while enjoying a much needed downpour, but we need a whole lot more precipitation to ease the fire danger. 

I would be a fellow Canadian citizen of yours had not both my paternal and maternal grandparents migrated across the border into Maine early in the 20th century. I have spent time in Ontario and Quebec and would love to visit the Canadian West, from the plains to the Pacific. Lots of similarities in both our countries historically with the movement of people from east to west, and Alberta and Colorado are much alike, too, I believe. There are differences, of course, and it all makes for interesting discussion, doesn't it? I value your involvement on this site in the months ahead. We must get the job done and have one heck of a cyber celebration in November.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

i seem to recall that President Obama has been present several times to honor the homecoming of the fallen. I think I read somewhere reliable (But can't remember where, of course...) that he does write to each family of the deceased soldiers. I think every time a dead soldier is brought home it should be shown on television, that eshould be an honor guard, and that the President should be present unless matters of state are so pressing that he cannot attend, and that the President, and the highest officer in the branch of the military the deceased served with should write to the families. 

Bush was a fool and worse. How can any of us who want to honor the fallen if we don't even know who they are, how and where they died and when they were brought home? Showing this in television is my idea of public television.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

I have a lot of faith in the youth of this country. They are a lot more open minded and accepting of diversity in people and ideas that are different from their own. They are a powerful resource that could do good in so many ways for the country and themselves. We need them out there voting in November to defeat Romney and send the tea party people and other non progressive candidates back home no matter what their political affiliation. 

We must live in the moment. That is our reality. Dismiss all the negative phantoms as they are merely illusions. They have no power. We will create our own reality and it is positive and strong and no one will be left behind in that new creation. We will do it, ladies.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

MaryMargaret said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > NJG said:
> ...


2 posted on December 22, 2008 15:15:28 EST by LiberConservative ("I can see upstate from my house!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]
To: Joiseydude
This is the side of Bush that the media has been hiding for 8 years - a compassionate caring human being.

President Bush has always taken the time to send personal hand written letters even to the parents of military personnel he meets that ask him to write to their parents even though they have not been injured in battle and are just fulfilling their obligations to the US military.

I know this is a fact because we received such a personal letter.

3 posted on December 22, 2008 15:15:30 EST by HD1200
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

"Mr. Bush, for instance, has sent personal letters to the families of every one of the more than 4,000 troops who have died in the two wars, an enormous personal effort that consumed hours of his time and escaped public notice. The task, along with meeting family members of troops killed in action, has been so wrenching - balancing the anger, grief and pride of families coping with the loss symbolized by a flag-draped coffin - that the president often leaned on his wife, Laura, for emotional support."


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > Ingried said:
> ...


"Mr. Bush, for instance, has sent personal letters to the families of every one of the more than 4,000 troops who have died in the two wars, an enormous personal effort that consumed hours of his time and escaped public notice. The task, along with meeting family members of troops killed in action, has been so wrenching - balancing the anger, grief and pride of families coping with the loss symbolized by a flag-draped coffin - that the president often leaned on his wife, Laura, for emotional support."


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Shirley Designer

Thank you for telling us how Canada honors its Fallen.
Admirable.

Our Soldiers return to different parts of the Country as I know
and initially their return was televised and then the Commander in Chief Bush who sent them to their death ordered that the return of Coffins could not be televised. Now it is shown again and should be.
President Obama writes to each Family personally and when he speaks about it, you can see the pain he feels in his Heart. 

The Funerals are extraordinary unless the Family asks for total privacy.
The Motorcades are miles long - hundreds of Cars and Motorcycles and close to the Funeral Home 2 of the largest
Flags are flying over the middle of the Highway attached to
a Crane on either side of the Road. Of course all traffic in both directions stops to give respect. Americans do that very well now. The Vietnam Veterans were treated horribly.

It pains me to think that 4.600 Soldiers in Iraq alone lost ttheir Lives. For what? Oil and greed?


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Shirley Designer

Thank you for telling us how Canada honors its Fallen.
Admirable.

Our Soldiers return to different parts of the Country as I know
and initially their return was televised and then the Commander in Chief Bush who sent them to their death ordered that the return of Coffins could not be televised. Now it is shown again and should be.
President Obama writes to each Family personally and when he speaks about it, you can see the pain he feels in his Heart. 

The Funerals are extraordinary unless the Family asks for total privacy.
The Motorcades are miles long - hundreds of Cars and Motorcycles and close to the Funeral Home 2 of the largest
Flags are flying over the middle of the Highway attached to
a Crane on either side of the Road. Of course all traffic in both directions stops to give respect. Americans do that very well now. The Vietnam Veterans were treated horribly.

It pains me to think that 4.600 Soldiers in Iraq alone lost their Lives. For what? Oil and greed.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

craftylady49 said:


> i seem to recall that President Obama has been present several times to honor the homecoming of the fallen. I think I read somewhere reliable (But can't remember where, of course...) that he does write to each family of the deceased soldiers. I think every time a dead soldier is brought home it should be shown on television, that eshould be an honor guard, and that the President should be present unless matters of state are so pressing that he cannot attend, and that the President, and the highest officer in the branch of the military the deceased served with should write to the families.
> 
> Bush was a fool and worse. How can any of us who want to honor the fallen if we don't even know who they are, how and where they died and when they were brought home? Showing this in television is my idea of public television.


I agree with your CraftyLady. That would constitute Public Television of the highest order.

Yes, I realize Obama does acknowledge our war dead and families and has been to Dover to meet planes returning war dead home.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Getting back to doing a service for your country, I remember President Obama in one of his campaign speeches a few years back mentioned an idea that those who want to go to college but couldn't afford the tuition could get a gov't loan and do 4 years of public service here in America to pay it off. What are your thoughts, fellow progressives?


Northwoods Gal The public service will quickly become combat duty to fill the ranks of the troops going to Southwest Asia...recruiters are falling short of their objectives...Obama needs them to provide the numbers for a "surge".

He also quickly decided to place additional troops in Kuwait and Israel.

Why would liberal progressives want to provide troops for Obama's needless wars in Southwest Asia? As we know in this thread, there has been expressed a lot of concern for the welfare our troops who are involved in needless wars in Afghanistan...especially about the psychological help returning troops are receiving...along with the many other military families.

(CNSNews.com) reports - "Two-thirds of U.S. military fatalities in the decade-long Afghan war have occurred since May 15, 2009, when the first wave of the troop SURGE ordered by President Barack Obama arrived in Afghanistan.

The 1,180 U.S. military FATALITIES in Afghanistan reported between May 15, 2009 and today account for approximately 66 percent of the total of 1,792 U.S. military fatalities in that country since the beginning of the war in October 2001, according to CNSNews.coms database of all fatalities in the war.

At the White House press briefing on Monday, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney noted that the president had been clear when he campaigned in 2008 that he would ESCALATE the U.S. involvement in Afghanistansaying this was necessary because there were insufficient resources into that war.

The question to participants on this thread...IS WHY DO WANT TO OFFER EVEN MORE TROOPS...when we know the War is lost because our END DATE IN 2014 WAS ANNOUNCED BY OBAMA. THERE WILL MORE CASUALTIES AND SUFFERING? FOR WHAT POSSIBLE REASON?


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Getting back to doing a service for your country, I remember President Obama in one of his campaign speeches a few years back mentioned an idea that those who want to go to college but couldn't afford the tuition could get a gov't loan and do 4 years of public service here in America to pay it off. What are your thoughts, fellow progressives?


Northwoods Gal The public service will quickly become combat duty to fill the ranks of the troops going to Southwest Asia...recruiters are falling short of their objectives...Obama needs them to provide the numbers for a "surge".

He also quickly decided to place additional troops in Kuwait and Israel.

Why would liberal progressives want to provide troops for Obama's needless wars in Southwest Asia? As we know in this thread, there has been expressed a lot of concern for the welfare our troops who are involved in needless wars in Afghanistan...especially about the psychological help returning troops are receiving...along with the many other military families.

(CNSNews.com) reports - "Two-thirds of U.S. military fatalities in the decade-long Afghan war have occurred since May 15, 2009, when the first wave of the troop SURGE ordered by President Barack Obama arrived in Afghanistan.

The 1,180 U.S. military FATALITIES in Afghanistan reported between May 15, 2009 and today account for approximately 66 percent of the total of 1,792 U.S. military fatalities in that country since the beginning of the war in October 2001, according to CNSNews.coms database of all fatalities in the war.

At the White House press briefing on Monday, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney noted that the president had been clear when he campaigned in 2008 that he would ESCALATE the U.S. involvement in Afghanistansaying this was necessary because there were insufficient resources into that war.

The question to participants on this thread...IS WHY DO WANT TO OFFER EVEN MORE TROOPS...when we know the War is lost because our END DATE IN 2014 WAS ANNOUNCED BY OBAMA. THERE WILL MORE CASUALTIES AND SUFFERING? FOR WHAT POSSIBLE REASON?


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Sharky:

Be sure to let us know when you have figured out why the Colorado wildfires are Obama's fault.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

"These men and women in our military have given their lives for us and to protect what we believe in. I wish the pres could be at those funerals, but the job keeps him away. 
For those coming home injured, we really need to step up the aftercare in our Va hospitals. Business owners can make jobs for the handicapped troops. In my town there are several places that put those who are ready back to work.
Their pay is too low for what they do for this country. I would love to see them receive the pay that congress has and let congress take a soldier's pay so they get a sense of reality of the struggles of soldiers and their families.
My daughter volunteers at our local VA. Somedays its taking them outside on the grounds and sometimes its playing cribbage or chesss, cards etc.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

MaryMagaret, thanks for your remarks. The number of casualties in Afghanistan is fairly small. Maybe 3 one day or 40 on day if Afghani EIDs were particularly sucessful. In these times I believe we have to acknowledge each of the fallen more intensely than we have done in past wars to help the people of the US recognize the seriousness of what is happening in Afghanistan. The more we learn the better we will be able to contribute to a solution for this war. (and every other war we may be involved in). 

When I do hear statistics about how many soldiers have died on any particular day I get a gut feeling that each one could potenially represent thousands. Remember Vietnam and the frequent escalations of troops sent there and the increase in the number of body bags coming home?

It really makes my blood boil that we don't see every single shipment of bodies of people who died for their country on television. Yeah, yeah, I probably sound obsessed with that idea but I'm not. I want as many kinds of public akcnowledgement of each and every one of the fallen because they deserve it. I want this also because I hope it will be one of the influences that will help us find a way out of Afghanistan as soon as possible.

It fills me with dispare and disgust that we put our young people who are doing what they feel they must into such a horrific war. The suicides, the desecrations of the Koran and bodies of dead Afghanis and the horrible incident when one soldier went completely berserk and killed 16 Afghanis who were mostly women and children should have all of us demanding an end to this war. I believe the things I just mentioned are the result of what our soldiers have to do and what they have to see.

I want the troops home. I want them treated for PTSD or any other mental prroblems if they need that, and treated for all physical injuries. I want them to have some place or process to help them transition from the soldier mentality to the citizen/civilian mentality they had before they entered military service.

I believe people who are entering military service these days are idealistic enough to want to give their all for this country. I want them to retain the same dedication to contribute to the making of a better country as citizens. It must be all too easy for a soldier to feel he/she's done their best and doesn't need to do anything else for this country. Think of how much we could be doing to address the nation's problems if we had people who kept their ideals in spite of their war experience.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

MaryMargaret,

Please read the quote below. It seriously questions what these service personnel would be involved in. I do not want to prolong these needless wars for the reasons stated quote below :

Hopefully, most of you will remember JFK and his service in WW2. This quote is in reference to the ongoing build up in Viet Nam. Again, it was the progressive liberal LBJ who enjoyed a plurality in Congress...just like Obama did in his first two years in office...THAT IS RIGHT. LBJ COULD HAVE AVOIDED THE VIETNAM WAR AND OBAMA COULD HAVE BROUGHT ALL THE TROOPS HOME UPON TAKING OFFICE AS HE PROMISED. THE OBAMA "SURGE" HAS BADLY EXPOSED HIS TROOPS IN AFGHANISTAN BY ANNOUNCING THEIR WITHDRAWAL IN 2014. AS I WRITE, OBAMA IS DEPLOYING 13,500 TROOPS TO KUWAIT AND AN UNSPECIFIED NUMBER to ISRAEL.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Northwoods Gal said:


> "These men and women in our military have given their lives for us and to protect what we believe in. I wish the pres could be at those funerals, but the job keeps him away.
> For those coming home injured, we really need to step up the aftercare in our Va hospitals. Business owners can make jobs for the handicapped troops. In my town there are several places that put those who are ready back to work.
> Their pay is too low for what they do for this country. I would love to see them receive the pay that congress has and let congress take a soldier's pay so they get a sense of reality of the struggles of soldiers and their families.
> My daughter volunteers at our local VA. Somedays its taking them outside on the grounds and sometimes its playing cribbage or chesss, cards etc.


Northwoods Gal. My DH has combat experience as troop commander. He has both the Purple Heart and Bronze Star for Valor with an Oak leaf cluster. Like most career soldiers he despises wars...especially in both Southeast Asia and Southwest Asia. The people who pay the price for these needless wars are their families. You have no idea how heart rending it is everytime one his troopers are seriously wounded, KIA, or maimed for life...and for what?
Orders from the Commander in Chief...the POTUS...If there is a soldier's death, he should make every effort to comfort the grieving family members...
The key point here is that he should have ended all wars as he promised in his campaign speeches. What is the purpose for us to be in such places as Afganistan? It is definitely not to protect the US...and WHY DO YOU BELIEVE WE SHOULD BE THERE WHEN OMBAMA HAS PROMISED TO HAVE ALL TROOPS OUT BY 2014...by giving the enemy information like this..it just encourages 
more friendly casualties.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> "These men and women in our military have given their lives for us and to protect what we believe in. I wish the pres could be at those funerals, but the job keeps him away.
> For those coming home injured, we really need to step up the aftercare in our Va hospitals. Business owners can make jobs for the handicapped troops. In my town there are several places that put those who are ready back to work.
> Their pay is too low for what they do for this country. I would love to see them receive the pay that congress has and let congress take a soldier's pay so they get a sense of reality of the struggles of soldiers and their families.
> My daughter volunteers at our local VA. Somedays its taking them outside on the grounds and sometimes its playing cribbage or chesss, cards etc.


To Northwood Gal
We need to reverse a number of things for sure.
You know what I mean.
At least President Obama got us out of Iraq quickly and is getting us out of Afghanistan All which a number of Republicans
did not and do not like. For some reason they are into War.
Of course, they send other Family's members there.
At least new books are comng out to give us a clearer picture of what did happen and is happening; practically no planning, lack of equipment, lack of access to medical care, support after returning home etc. etc.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

I often think of where this country would be if Bush had gone into Afghanistan and gotten Bin Laden and never gone to Iraq. I knew from the beginning it was wrong. Bin Laden needed to be taken down, and even though Sadam was a bad guy we can't police the whole world. Bush thought he would go into Iraq,take out Sadam and all of Iraq's people would kiss his feet. In the process he became the most hated president not only by the US, but also by the world. Now if Romney should win we could be headed down that same road again. He has a lot of the same advisers that Bush had and he has already talked like going to war is something he would do. I want a President who would put a lot of thought into it and try everything else first before going to war.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Remember this one?
> 
> "Suppose they gave a war and nobody came."
> 
> If women control reproduction, how will old white men have enough young men to fight their wars?


 :thumbup:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

I wonder if Romney would send his sons into combat? Queen Elizabeth's relatives all served as did the Kennedys.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

NJG said:


> I often think of where this country would be if Bush had gone into Afghanistan and gotten Bin Laden and never gone to Iraq. I knew from the beginning it was wrong. Bin Laden needed to be taken down, and even though Sadam was a bad guy we can't police the whole world. Bush thought he would go into Iraq,take out Sadam and all of Iraq's people would kiss his feet. In the process he became the most hated president not only by the US, but also by the world. Now if Romney should win we could be headed down that same road again. He has a lot of the same advisers that Bush had and he has already talked like going to war is something he would do. I want a President who would put a lot of thought into it and try everything else first before going to war.


To NJG:

I think that no matter what, Bush was determined to go into Iraq and that it was not for them having WMD or to free the People from Sadam Hussein, it was for Oil.
And as to future Wars, the Republicans have had an eye on Iran for some time already. At least President Obama always takes all caution possible before escalating anything. His intelligent 
approach to everything is a blessing for us all.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Ingried said:


> NJG said:
> 
> 
> > I often think of where this country would be if Bush had gone into Afghanistan and gotten Bin Laden and never gone to Iraq. I knew from the beginning it was wrong. Bin Laden needed to be taken down, and even though Sadam was a bad guy we can't police the whole world. Bush thought he would go into Iraq,take out Sadam and all of Iraq's people would kiss his feet. In the process he became the most hated president not only by the US, but also by the world. Now if Romney should win we could be headed down that same road again. He has a lot of the same advisers that Bush had and he has already talked like going to war is something he would do. I want a President who would put a lot of thought into it and try everything else first before going to war.
> ...


I think Bush also wanted to get Sadam because he had tried to kill his Dad.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

""""Lots of similarities in both our countries historically with the movement of people from east to west, and Alberta and Colorado are much alike, too, I believe.""""

I think we are much alike. We have the Mountains and we live in the NOrth west which is a great place to live. I lived in Toronto for a few years and the west is quite different - possibly because we have a bit more space, and we are fewer in numbers. 

I have been thinking about your beautiful Colorado - we know some people from Colorado springs and have been kept up to date they were one family, among many who lost their home. 

I appreciate the welcome I have received on this forum. I have been reading all the posts - those I agree with and the ones I don't agree with -- and I am getting such a great idea of the thoughts and feelings of my American friends who are preparing for such an important election. I appreciate it that my feelings are accepted and are treated so kindly in a forum that could easily have asked me not to post as I am not an American. I thank Lily and the others on this forum.

Designer


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

NJG said:


> I often think of where this country would be if Bush had gone into Afghanistan and gotten Bin Laden and never gone to Iraq. I knew from the beginning it was wrong. Bin Laden needed to be taken down, and even though Sadam was a bad guy we can't police the whole world. Bush thought he would go into Iraq,take out Sadam and all of Iraq's people would kiss his feet. In the process he became the most hated president not only by the US, but also by the world. Now if Romney should win we could be headed down that same road again. He has a lot of the same advisers that Bush had and he has already talked like going to war is something he would do. I want a President who would put a lot of thought into it and try everything else first before going to war.


Bush was after Sadam Hussien also, he was raping and killing his own people. He was a threat to the US snd the world. Bin Laden was going from Afghanistan to Pakistan, back and forth. Remember the Iraq Kuwait war, taking hostages of all nationalities, remember the photo shoot of him with a 6/7 English boy on his lap, women and other children surrounding him. Rev Jesse Jackson was instrumental in their release.

First, get Sadam and rid the war of a tyrant and at same time look for the other bad guy. The Russians were in Afghanistan for ten years and could not win. So my thanks goes to servicemen and women who sacrificed their lives to get this very in humane dictator and his sons out of this world.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> NJG said:
> 
> 
> > I often think of where this country would be if Bush had gone into Afghanistan and gotten Bin Laden and never gone to Iraq. I knew from the beginning it was wrong. Bin Laden needed to be taken down, and even though Sadam was a bad guy we can't police the whole world. Bush thought he would go into Iraq,take out Sadam and all of Iraq's people would kiss his feet. In the process he became the most hated president not only by the US, but also by the world. Now if Romney should win we could be headed down that same road again. He has a lot of the same advisers that Bush had and he has already talked like going to war is something he would do. I want a President who would put a lot of thought into it and try everything else first before going to war.
> ...


Yah, some intelligent approach saying he get will get the US out of Iraq, only took him 3 years, then put them in Afghanistan with additional buildup and why are we still there?


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

It's so typical of Republicans to blame Obama for wars started by Republicans.

Sanity check, anyone?"

In psychiatry this is called "projection".


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> It's so typical of Republicans to blame Obama for wars started by Republicans.
> 
> Sanity check, anyone?"
> 
> In psychiatry this is called "projection".


Dear MaryMargaret
Some defects can't be corrected yet.
More medical research needed.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> It's so typical of Republicans to blame Obama for wars started by Republicans.
> 
> Sanity check, anyone?"
> 
> In psychiatry this is called "projection".


Boy ain't that the truth. We bombed the presidential palace in Iraq on 3/19/03 and Bush declared Mission accomplished on 5/1/03.

On the evening of Sept. 12, 2001, according to a published memoir, President Bush wandered alone around the Situation Room in a White House emptied by the previous day's calamitous events.

Spotting Richard A. Clarke, his counterterrorism coordinator, Bush pulled him and a small group of aides into the dark paneled room.

"Go back over everything, everything," Bush said, according to Clarke's account. "See if Saddam did this."

"But Mr. President, al Qaeda did this," Clarke replied.

"I know, I know, but . . . see if Saddam was involved. Just look. I want to know any shred."

Reminded that the CIA, FBI and White House staffs had sought and found no such link before, Clarke said, Bush spoke "testily." As he left the room, Bush said a third time, "Look into Iraq, Saddam."

Although expressing points of disagreement with all four presidents, Richard Clarke reserves by far his strongest language for George W. Bush. The president, he said, "failed to act prior to September 11 on the threat from al Qaeda despite repeated warnings and then harvested a political windfall for taking obvious yet insufficient steps after the attacks." The rapid shift of focus to Saddam Hussein, Clarke writes, "launched an unnecessary and costly war in Iraq that strengthened the fundamentalist, radical Islamic terrorist movement worldwide."

Among the motives for the war, Clarke argues, were the politics of the 2002 midterm election. "The crisis was manufactured, and Bush political adviser Karl Rove was telling Republicans to 'run on the war,' " Clarke writes.

Like former Treasury secretary Paul H. O'Neill, who spoke out in January, Clarke said some of Bush's leading advisers arrived in office determined to make war on Iraq. Nearly all of them, he said, believed Clinton had been "overly obsessed with al Qaeda."

In the first minutes after hijacked planes struck the World Trade Center towers on Sept. 11, Rice placed Clarke in her chair in the Situation Room and asked him to direct the government's crisis response. The next day, Clarke returned to find the subject changed to Iraq.

"What was unique about George Bush's reaction" was the additional choice to invade "not a country that had been engaging in anti-U.S. terrorism but one that had not been, Iraq." In so doing, he estranged allies, enraged potential friends in the Arab and Islamic worlds, and produced "more terrorists than we jail or shoot."

And now that Romney has a lot of the same advisers as Bush had, if Romney is elected we should all be very very scared.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

NJG said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > It's so typical of Republicans to blame Obama for wars started by Republicans.
> ...


Bush and cronies were trying to find a way to invade Iraq before Sept 11. It made a great lie, er, excuse.

A group of terrorists perpetuated 9-11, not a government or a country. Yet, if we had wanted to go after the country that produced the most terrorists on 9-11, we would have invaded Saudi Arabia. Oh, can't do that; we are in bed with them over oil.

We wanted to invade Iraq out of spite and oil.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

LillyK said:


> I wonder if Romney would send his sons into combat? Queen Elizabeth's relatives all served as did the Kennedys.


The answer is "Not only no, but hell no."


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> """"Lots of similarities in both our countries historically with the movement of people from east to west, and Alberta and Colorado are much alike, too, I believe.""""
> 
> I think we are much alike. We have the Mountains and we live in the NOrth west which is a great place to live. I lived in Toronto for a few years and the west is quite different - possibly because we have a bit more space, and we are fewer in numbers.
> 
> ...


So sad. I heard last night that over 600 homes have been destroyed in fires all over Colorado so far this year. Indications are that there will be more fires.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Colorado knits said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if Romney would send his sons into combat? Queen Elizabeth's relatives all served as did the Kennedys.
> ...


:

Let's not forget whose lives Romney's old white men will propose to sacrifice for political gain and oil:

Your grandsons and granddaughters

and

My grandsons Sanjay, Arjun, Miles, and Gavin
My granddaughter ClaraJane

Put your own grandchildren's names in there. How does it feel?


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

NGJ: Thank you for that passage from Clark's book. What is the name of the book?


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> NGJ: Thank you for that passage from Clark's book. What is the name of the book?


Against All Enemies
Inside America's War on Terror
What Really Happened

I read the book, but think I would like to read it again. This is the link to the article from the Washington Post.
http://www.president-bush.com/bombiraq.html


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

NJG said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > It's so typical of Republicans to blame Obama for wars started by Republicans.
> ...


TO NJG:
Thank you very much for the information.
I will get the book. Oh my, my list is getting longer on MUST
READ.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Crafty Lady -- I am wondering why you are spending so much time on these political forums when you once again have asked the 'powers that be' to close down these forums . You are one of the main posters -- I am amazed -- I have read your suggestions 2 or 3 times over the past 3 weeks - but then I read your posts on most of the policital forums. What gives? I am interested to know exactly what you are trying to accomplish. 

I personally can't see where we are hurting anyone and if you find these forums so dreadful, why are you one of the main posters? I am just asking -- and I would really be interested in knowing your reasons. 

I find this forum extremely interesting and have learned so much from all of you about your system, your reasons for your feelings and even have come to my own conclusions about those who try to undermine this forum. I believe it is worthwhile and I have posted on other links that have been posted about nastiness etc. I also noted from Crafty lady's latest new topic that most of those who have posted, don't agree with her suggestion, and are asking her the same question.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Doing the happy dance! The Highway Bill has passed! Our infrastructure can now be repaired and 3 million jobs will be created just from this. Finally! The 3 stooges let something through!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Colorado knits said:


> Designer1234 said:
> 
> 
> > """"Lots of similarities in both our countries historically with the movement of people from east to west, and Alberta and Colorado are much alike, too, I believe.""""
> ...


Yes, it is devastating! Colorado is the most beautiful place and 
Colorado Springs a pretty good sized city. My heart is with all of those who have been displaced during these fires.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

MaryMargaret said:


> Sharky:
> 
> Be sure to let us know when you have figured out why the Colorado wildfires are Obama's fault.


Your thinking would be more like the fires are Bush's fault!


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Doing the happy dance! The Highway Bill has passed! Our infrastructure can now be repaired and 3 million jobs will be created just from this. Finally! The 3 stooges let something through!


Northwoods Gal
It seems like some Constituents have been riding their tails hard. We all need to do that on more issues. We drive on those roads and over those Bridges.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Spotting Richard A. Clarke, his counterterrorism coordinator, Bush pulled him and a small group of aides into the dark paneled room.

TO NJG:
Thank you very much for the information.
I will get the book. Oh my, my list is getting longer on MUST
READ.[/quote]

I am going to try to read this book too- the article was very interesting. I am going to see if our lIbrary has a copy. designer


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Ingried said:


> Northwoods Gal said:
> 
> 
> > Doing the happy dance! The Highway Bill has passed! Our infrastructure can now be repaired and 3 million jobs will be created just from this. Finally! The 3 stooges let something through!
> ...


Ingried, I am hoping that their constituents keep on them! 
Too much time and taxpayer money wasted by this 112th Congress.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Ingried said:


> NJG said:
> 
> 
> > MaryMargaret said:
> ...


Don't forget Watches Without Time by Matt Zeller. I think that would be a good read about what is happening with today's soldier.


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

MaryMargaret said:


> Colorado knits said:
> 
> 
> > LillyK said:
> ...


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> Northwoods Gal said:
> 
> 
> > Doing the happy dance! The Highway Bill has passed! Our infrastructure can now be repaired and 3 million jobs will be created just from this. Finally! The 3 stooges let something through!
> ...


----------



## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

Yes, I have followed and participated in all 4 political topics in General Chit Chat. As a result, I am now completely against political discussions because Sharky has used all 4 poltical topics as if they were her private soapboxes. It has taken me a long time and a lot of experience to make my decision. 

I am completely disgusted with the KP Forum for allowing one person to highjack 4 topics and am leaving the Forum. Instead of ignoring Sharky, enough of you have responded to her posts to keep her continuing to post her garbage.

Sometimes ignoring a topic isn't the the best way to deal with it. I had hoped that ignoring Sharky was the best way to deal with her and keep the political discussions going at the same time. Sharky has made ignoring the problem about political discussion on the KP Forum impossible for me to accept. I don't want to belong to a group that tolerates someone like Sharky, and I have very, very rarely felt that way. I love diversity. 

After much serious thought I have become dead set against political discussion in the Forum. I include discussion of religion in my disapproval of topics to include in General Chit Chat because when a religious topic starts, as it very well may do all too soon, someone will do just what Sharky has been doing with the political topics.

Yes, by leaving the Forum I am giving Sharky exactly what she wants. I don't care. I care more about free discussion than being part of anything Sharky is involved with. She wins and so do I as I won't have to put up with her anymore.

If I thought there was a better way to deal with Sharky I'd do it in a hot minute. The Progressive Chat Cafe would be a great place if it wasn't for Shaky. Ignoring her hasn't worked to get her to stop what she's doing. She's pure poison and enjoys baiting people for the pure pleasure of it.. I was a fool to think there was any way at all to change what she's doing.

I'm chickening out. See you in the funny papers.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

NJG - I saw Matt Zeller on TV last night. Quite an amazing guy. He sure has the education and military credentials serving in Afghanistan embedded with Afghan soldiers then was in the CIA for a few years after he came back. He used to be a Republican and worked for McCain and he is now running as a Democrat in New York for a house seat, I think it's 19th Congressional Dist. We need good guys like him in Congress so support him if you can, in any way you can. Husband and I both want to read his book so husband gets to read it first as I got my bookswap package and several wonderful books to keep me reading for a while.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

NJG and Lilly, the book sounds great. Am heading to B&N tomorrow to see if I can get one!


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Patty - We sure know what happens when we have bad infrastructure in our bridges with the I-35 Bridge collapse in MN. I never thought it could happen in MN but if it could happen here it can happen anywhere. I was a horrible event that we will never forget and the saddest thing of all was that it did not have to happen. It will be wonderful when we start updating and rebuilding in our own country once again. Think of all the people that will be needed for those jobs!


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Patty - We sure know what happens when we have bad infrastructure in our bridges with the I-35 Bridge collapse in MN. I never thought it could happen in MN but if it could happen here it can happen anywhere. I was a horrible event that we will never forget and the saddest thing of all was that it did not have to happen. It will be wonderful when we start updating and rebuilding in our own country once again. Think of all the people that will be needed for those jobs!


LillyK

It is a great day. Should have started quite some time ago.
Actually years ago. Everything was neglected just to keep an idiotic War going.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

LillyK said:


> NJG - I saw Matt Zeller on TV last night. Quite an amazing guy. He sure has the education and military credentials serving in Afghanistan embedded with Afghan soldiers then was in the CIA for a few years after he came back. He used to be a Republican and worked for McCain and he is now running as a Democrat in New York for a house seat, I think it's 19th Congressional Dist. We need good guys like him in Congress so support him if you can, in any way you can. Husband and I both want to read his book so husband gets to read it first as I got my bookswap package and several wonderful books to keep me reading for a while.


I read one article that said he was running and one that said he wasn't. One said he had run and lost in 2010, so I'm not sure.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

NJG I stand corrected. You are right that he did run before and lost and he decided not to run this year. It is very confusing isn't it.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Patty - We sure know what happens when we have bad infrastructure in our bridges with the I-35 Bridge collapse in MN. I never thought it could happen in MN but if it could happen here it can happen anywhere. I was a horrible event that we will never forget and the saddest thing of all was that it did not have to happen. It will be wonderful when we start updating and rebuilding in our own country once again. Think of all the people that will be needed for those jobs!


Just think how many more if they would have thrown the railroads in with it. I hope they did. I haven't read it yet.But they are estimating 3 million jobs, and jobs like that pay very well!


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Is anyone following the Antics of John Walsh running against
a decorated War Veteran who lost her Legs in a Blackhawk Crash?

That Man first of all has been a deadbeat Dad and aside from that is a total Misfit. How did he get elected in the first place?
5 minutes into any of his rantings and his problems become very clear.


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Here we go again.  You Liberal, Progressive Democrats(LPD for short) on this thread are so hilarious you make my sides hurt.  I say the same things over and over again...you fail to demonstrate an understanding of the simpleness of truthful facts.  I must apologize to other readers...but the LPD gang of 6..Ingried(ING), MaryMargaret(MM), LillyK(LK), Craftylady49(C49), NYG, Colorado Knits(CK),  requires another opportunity to expose the nonsense they place on this thread.

Their "propaganda" formula for "suppressing" opposing view points or specific issues: SMEAR, DECEIVE,
AVOID AT ALL COSTS REVEALING THEIR EXPERIENCES AS TO WHY WE SOULD BELIEVE THEM.

Recent examples since yesterday:

1. This one from LK is the most comical if not so tragic.  Her statement reference military service, "I wonder if Romney would send his sons into combat. Queen Elizabeth relatives all served as did the Kennedys. National Lampoon printed this fake quote from Teddy Kennedy, as a "response" to a question on whether he planned to campaign for President in the next election: "I'll drive off that bridge when I come to it." 

LK any idea what this about?  Apparently not!  TEDDY KENNEDY DID NOT SERVE IN COMBAT BUT HE DROVE OFF THE CHAPPAQUIDDICK BRIDGE IN A DRUNKEN STUPOR  WHICH RESULTED IN THE DEATH OF HIS FEMALE COMPANION, MARY JO KOPECHNE.  TEDDY'S WIFE SUFFERED HER THIRD MISCARRIAGE!

CK...being a could team player with regard to Romney's sons serving in combat...responds, "NOT ONLY NO, BUT HELL NO."  CK is as uninformed about Teddy as LK. 

2. MM, who keeps her experiences a secret, not to be outdone, offers  us an example about her lack of knowledge about psychiatry. She states, "It is so typical of Republicans to blame
Obama for wars started by Republications.  Sanity check anyone? In psychiatry this is called projection."

In just 3 sentences, MM demonstrates the "propaganda" formula that I explained above:  SMEAR AND DECEIVE!
MM any board certified psychiatrist knows that this Freudian concept, PROJECTION, is decades old and no longer considered valid.  

MM, when are you going to tell what your qualifications are?  I know AVOID at all costs.  YOU REALLY ARE COMICAL!

ANY IDEA HOW FREUD DIED?  ASSISTED SUICIDE.

3.  NJG...a good team player...ads her DECEPTION..."if Romney is elected we should all be very very scared."
NJG, Bush had congressional approval for his war...Obama completely ignored Congress and committed military 
forces in Libya...this a violation of our Constitution...the document that guarantees your rights! IF ANYTHING SHOULD SCARE YOU, IT IS A POTUS WHO FAILS TO FOLLOW OUR CONSTITUTION.

4. Here is one for the gang to work on. Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton stated in a speech on the Senate floor that 
"...there was no dispute that Hussein was involved in the September 11th attacks."

I am closing for now...another fine LPD day of jocularity and entertainment.  I may place your comments on a poster in my local Republican headquarters...but I am afraid they would die laughing.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Yes, Ingried, I have been seeing him on the news. I especially "love' the one where he kept talking over the anchor who was trying to interview him. All mouth, no substance to that man.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > Patty - We sure know what happens when we have bad infrastructure in our bridges with the I-35 Bridge collapse in MN. I never thought it could happen in MN but if it could happen here it can happen anywhere. I was a horrible event that we will never forget and the saddest thing of all was that it did not have to happen. It will be wonderful when we start updating and rebuilding in our own country once again. Think of all the people that will be needed for those jobs!
> ...


Northwoods Gal
Oh yes, Railroads, other Countries already have and are building high speed Trains and we are still in the Model -T age.
We can do better, much better. Just bring the Technology here
and we willl surpass any other Country. No more rail laying the old fashion way. Monster machines lay the rails at amazing speed. And we have more open land available then most Countries where they are building them.
Just think Kansas City to Chicago in 2 hours in total luxury and quiet. No more Air Travel pains.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Ingried,
I could live with that! President Obama was talking about that and how much fuel could be saved if we just put the technology in motion.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Northwoods Gal said:


> Yes, Ingried, I have been seeing him on the news. I especially "love' the one where he kept talking over the anchor who was trying to interview him. All mouth, no substance to that man.


Northwood Gal

Empty Wagons aways make the biggest noise!

Walsh did that to an other Anchor previously. Then said the same thing 61 times and this time 92 times.
Sound familiar?


----------



## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

I have found the political topics very interesting. I have participated a lot. Personally, I think the Progressive Chat Cafe is the best.It has taken me a long time to conclude that political discussion should be banned anywhere on the KP Forum. It takes me awhile to decide about certain things. Sharky's recent take-over of all 4 of the political topics in General Chit Chat did it for me. I'm chickening out and leaving the Forum because I don't believe I can do anything to improve what I see as a bad situation.


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

White House Photo Of Dead Troops Ceremony Sparks Protest

LOLITA C. BALDOR   08/10/11 07:37 PM ET   

Under a Pentagon policy set in 2009, media coverage at the Dover base is allowed only when family members of the war dead approve. In the case of multiple sets of remains returning as a group, photographers take pictures of those approved caskets only and are ushered away before the remains of any troops whose families declined coverage are brought out of the plane.

Please note....Obama tricked us...there were no caskets... only the mangled bodies of Seal team 6. It comprised the identity of the brave men...and their families...and this classified information to protect these wonderful men and their families from reprisals.

All this for a photo op of Obama...he LOVES HIMSELF more than his troops and their families.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> I have found the political topics very interesting. I have participated a lot. Personally, I think the Progressive Chat Cafe is the best.It has taken me a long time to conclude that political discussion should be banned anywhere on the KP Forum. It takes me awhile to decide about certain things. Sharky's recent take-over of all 4 of the political topics in General Chit Chat did it for me. I'm chickening out and leaving the Forum because I don't believe I can do anything to improve what I see as a bad situation.


craftylady

It is all so simple.
If you like something, read it.
If you do not like something, ignore it.
The rest of us decide for ourselves.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

]

craftylady

It is all so simple.
If you like something, read it.
If you do not like something, ignore it.
The rest of us decide for ourselves.[/quote]

I agree completely -- Crafty lady, you have been repeating yourself over and over on many different forums for the past two days -- we know you are going to leave -no need to explain it all again -- we understand! - goodbye!


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Ingried said:


> Is anyone following the Antics of John Walsh running against
> a decorated War Veteran who lost her Legs in a Blackhawk Crash?
> 
> That Man first of all has been a deadbeat Dad and aside from that is a total Misfit. How did he get elected in the first place?
> 5 minutes into any of his rantings and his problems become very clear.


Yes, I have been watching him. He is a total jack---. He interrupts everyone he is talking to and won't listen to anyone. No wonder he is divorced. He voted against the jobs bill, and the student loan interest rate increase. I can't see how anyone would vote for him instead of Tammy Duckworth. On one of his rants against Tammy the audience he was talking to all laughed when he talked about her. What has this world come to? There doesn't appear to be any civility left.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

craftylady49 said:


> I have found the political topics very interesting. I have participated a lot. Personally, I think the Progressive Chat Cafe is the best.It has taken me a long time to conclude that political discussion should be banned anywhere on the KP Forum. It takes me awhile to decide about certain things. Sharky's recent take-over of all 4 of the political topics in General Chit Chat did it for me. I'm chickening out and leaving the Forum because I don't believe I can do anything to improve what I see as a bad situation.


That is your choice, if you don't want to read this you don't have to. Sharky has taken over only if you let her. I don't read her posts and I don't comment on what she has to say.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Signing of the Bill to repair our Infrastructure.

I wish it would also take care of the ugliest structures everywhere, the Telephone Poles transporting our Electricity.
That is just the minor part of this; every time there is a Storm,
the Electricity goes out and often for days.
That does not happen in other developed Countries. They do not even lose Electricity for 1/2 day/YEAR (year that is) and they have plenty of Storms.


----------



## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

One day when my daughter was small and I was having trouble getting time to exercise, I went out early one morning, about 6, to have a run. A neighbor was walking her large dog. As soon as I came out my back door the dog saw me and ran 200 feet up my driveway barking, snarling, and threatening to physically attack me on my own property.

We've got that here. This thread is clearly labeled Progressives Chat Cafe, implying a friendly tone, amicable chat, and mutual respect among centrist or left-of-center people. An angry, hostile, aggressive, egocentric right-winger, or she and her husband, saw an opportunity to bark, snarl, attack, ridicule, disrupt, and destroy the discussion with so much vitriol even other right-wingers have been driven away. 

They reveal their goals by calling themselves sharks, an animal devoted to killing. Not content with what they're wreaking here, these sharks started several other threads seeking more carnage for their insatiable appetites.

They're having way too much fun on this spree to stop. I don't believe their motives are political. They are simply filled with hate and like to bite and destroy.

What shall we do, ladies and gentlemen of the cafe?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

They are simply filled with hate and like to bite and destroy.
What shall we do, ladies and gentlemen of the cafe?""""

I agree with everything you are saying MM -- I think we should continue doing what we are doing. don't read the posts and definitely don't acknowledge them. She(he) can talk to herself/ himself. 

The more we take her on, the happier she is. She makes no sense so in my opinion we should continue to pretend she isn't there no matter how horrid and nasty she gets. I check out each new post and if she is the writer - I don't read it. I therefore don't get angry, frustrated or let her affect my thoughts. 

She makes me more and more certain that people who have thoughtful discussions, who study before they spout their garbage, must do everything in their power to continue doing what this forum was set out to do. 

I am a visitor and more than ever, I realize how important it is not to let people like her dominate our discussions or intimidate us. Remember what happened in Germany before the war. People were spouting lies, untruths, twisted statements and the people were too uninterested to do anything about it. Just my opinion. I won't be driven away, and I am more and more inclined to become more active to fight this type of shark in my own country. I think we gain when she posts such hate - because even those thinking people on the right must see where she is coming from. I will stay with this thread even if most people leave because they can't stand her hate filled messages --- DON'T READ THEM. Shirley 
Designer


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> One day when my daughter was small and I was having trouble getting time to exercise, I went out early one morning, about 6, to have a run. A neighbor was walking her large dog. As soon as I came out my back door the dog saw me and ran 200 feet up my driveway barking, snarling, and threatening to physically attack me on my own property.
> 
> We've got that here. This thread is clearly labeled Progressives Chat Cafe, implying a friendly tone, amicable chat, and mutual respect among centrist or left-of-center people. An angry, hostile, aggressive, egocentric right-winger, or she and her husband, saw an opportunity to bark, snarl, attack, ridicule, disrupt, and destroy the discussion with so much vitriol even other right-wingers have been driven away.
> 
> ...


I G N O R E them T O T A L L Y.
None of their rants have ANY value whatsoever.
Exposing themselves to everyone will be the best remedy.
God forgot to pass along an herb for curing them.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> They are simply filled with hate and like to bite and destroy.
> What shall we do, ladies and gentlemen of the cafe?""""
> 
> I agree with everything you are saying MM -- I think we should continue doing what we are doing. don't read the posts and definitely don't acknowledge them. She(he) can talk to herself/ himself.
> ...


Designer1234

You are right on Target.
I will never fall silent on many issues. Too many People to speak for who have no voice.
And you are so right, the People of Germany were scared into submission by an initially small group and we know what the outcome was.


----------



## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Good reminder, Ingreid.

Interestingly, our resident cockfighter often riffs on how wonderful Germany is. Sent her kids to school there. I'm sure Deutschland is a wonderful country now. No disparagement intended.

Another person in my life who worshipped Germany was someone who was also handicapped by his rigidity. He so loved finding out what the rules are so he could follow them. And no matter what happened, he wouldn't make waves. Even to protect his children.


----------



## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

Do you ever get those offensively childish and idiotic mass emails from your wingnut uncle or coworker? I do make it a practice to "reply all" in two or three short paragraphs or a bulleted list (they think and talk in soundbites)...and as succinctly as possible present the contradicting facts. As for the Sharky types...I scroll on by. I will not waste my time on such nonsense. I cringe everytime someone addresses her by name and responds to her messages. We have nothing to prove by doing so....our conversation speaks for itself.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Sherbearkub said:


> Do you ever get those offensively childish and idiotic mass emails from your wingnut uncle or coworker? I do make it a practice to "reply all" in two or three short paragraphs or a bulleted list (they think and talk in soundbites)...and as succinctly as possible present the contradicting facts. As for the Sharky types...I scroll on by. I will not waste my time on such nonsense. I cringe everytime someone addresses her by name and responds to her messages. We have nothing to prove by doing so....our conversation speaks for itself.


Yes I do get those emails and I also reply to let them know the truth. I no longer read nor respond to her posts.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Good reminder, Ingreid.
> 
> Interestingly, our resident cockfighter often riffs on how wonderful Germany is. Sent her kids to school there. I'm sure Deutschland is a wonderful country now. No disparagement intended.
> 
> Another person in my life who worshipped Germany was someone who was also handicapped by his rigidity. He so loved finding out what the rules are so he could follow them. And no matter what happened, he wouldn't make waves. Even to protect his children.


MaryMargaret

Deutschland is a wonderful Country and is doing very well economically even now. Better than for some years.
They know how to plan and always do it long term. 10 years
is pretty much the rule whereas here Corporations figure everything on a quarterly (3 mos.) basis. 
I am happy to report that the past will never be repeated there.
The Young are so well educated and so socially astute and politically engaged and all embracing. They have it all together.
And I thought I was educated well then, nothing compared to today. Have 2 Nieces, 6 and 8, who are already fluent in German and English and just started with their 3rd language.

Taxes are high in Germany compared do here but the Wages and Benefits are extraordinary and Health Care as good as anywhere in the World. Research is always in full swing.
The Eldery are well taken care of and not warehoused. 
Nursing Homes are more like a fine Hotel and not like an Institution.
And with their Universal Health Care Doctors are doing fine,
very fine and still make Housecalls.


----------



## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingreid: Amazing, reassuring and inspiring report on Germany and I am so happy to hear it because certainly the German people suffered enough in the 20th century.


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > Good reminder, Ingreid.
> ...


Yes, we did have a doctor come to our to make a house all. Alice was so glad to see him, she'd been having terrific stomach pains. He was wonderful, gave me the shots to give her every couple of hours. she finally had her last kitten. Just a terrific Doctor. 

Me daughter has a vet who makes house calls, they have goats, chickens, 5 dogs, 14 cats. She adopts senior citizen pets so they can have a good remainder of their years. Many can't afford to keep their pets because of the present administration's policies. Unemployment effects so many even precious furries.


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Sherbearkub said:


> Do you ever get those offensively childish and idiotic mass emails from your wingnut uncle or coworker? I do make it a practice to "reply all" in two or three short paragraphs or a bulleted list (they think and talk in soundbites)...and as succinctly as possible present the contradicting facts. As for the Sharky types...I scroll on by. I will not waste my time on such nonsense. I cringe everytime someone addresses her by name and responds to her messages. We have nothing to prove by doing so....our conversation speaks for itself.


Yes, your conversation does speak for itself. See, you're doing it too! Calling me names, smearing me, you're in the minority here in good ole USA, that's all you have to remember.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Helllo Sherbearkup.

Nice to see you.
Ingried


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

NJG said:


> Sherbearkub said:
> 
> 
> > Do you ever get those offensively childish and idiotic mass emails from your wingnut uncle or coworker? I do make it a practice to "reply all" in two or three short paragraphs or a bulleted list (they think and talk in soundbites)...and as succinctly as possible present the contradicting facts. As for the Sharky types...I scroll on by. I will not waste my time on such nonsense. I cringe everytime someone addresses her by name and responds to her messages. We have nothing to prove by doing so....our conversation speaks for itself.
> ...


One does not even have to read all of them, if you read one you have read them all.
Such institutional correspondence reveals location.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Ingreid: Amazing, reassuring and inspiring report on Germany and I am so happy to hear it because certainly the German people suffered enough in the 20th century.


MaryMargaret
Those were scary times.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Hi Shebearcub - Nice to see you.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Hi Shebearcub - Nice to see you. I had a cousin who always needed to be the center of attention no matter where he was. One Christmas day many relatives were gathered together and he shouted look at me and everone turned to look just as he put a glass ornament into his mouth and bit down on it. Yes, he did get attention that day alright but he did shut up as he was hurried off to the local hospital to have the glass removed. Fortunately, my cousin outgrew his narcicist behavior (now classified as a psychiatric disorder) and became a very nice man. Sadly, some never grow up and even have an increased need for the spotlight. I pity them so as we can all see negative attention for them is better then no attention at all. I consider such people like a bit of indigestion after a good dinner, one good burp and it's all gone. I rest my case. Let's all have a good burp ladies a be done with it. Have a good weekend!


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## Sherbearkub (Feb 17, 2012)

Burrrrrrp....ahhhhh.

Haha...I'll remember that


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

SherBearCub - Doesn't that feel much better?


----------



## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Please advise

For the past two weeks when I try to donate to the Obama campaign in response to an e mail from the campaign, either my browser crashes or the system won't accept the month/year of my credit card. This is new, it used to work well. I've notified the campaign by e mail, haven't received an acknowledgment.

Am I paranoid to suspect sabotage somewhere in cyberspace? Who should I notify and how? How much energy should I put into trying to communicate this to the campaign?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I'd look for the local Democratic headquarters and mail in a donation. The Obama campaign isn't even close to Romney in fund-raising.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

alcameron said:


> I'd look for the local Democratic headquarters and mail in a donation. The Obama campaign isn't even close to Romney in fund-raising.


Thanks, Al. I know how much more moola Romney's getting and I sense a little distress about it on the Obama campaign and wondering if their donation levels are down and if so could it be a deliberately planted bug.

I'm concerned about what's causing this persistent problem. I did find a site set up for reporting technical issues but answers are of course only mechanized ones. They did ask for operating system and browser name, and automated an acknowledgement.

You know as well as I do that Koch/Rove will stop at nothing and planting a mole in Obama's IT operation would be a no-brainer for them, and it could invisibly depress their donations for a long time before the Obamas found out.

Ya know, "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."


----------



## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there quite a few pro-Romney and anti-Obama ads in this thread? Are they in other KP threads?

If it's true that KP used to ban political talk but doesn't any more it could be because they decided to accept political advertising. If they are willing to accept ads from political candidates they can't very well have a rule against political conversations, can they?


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Please advise
> 
> For the past two weeks when I try to donate to the Obama campaign in response to an e mail from the campaign, either my browser crashes or the system won't accept the month/year of my credit card. This is new, it used to work well. I've notified the campaign by e mail, haven't received an acknowledgment.
> 
> Am I paranoid to suspect sabotage somewhere in cyberspace? Who should I notify and how? How much energy should I put into trying to communicate this to the campaign?


MaryMargaret

I shall be reporting it. I have a direct #. As soon as I have an answer for you I shall PM.
Weekend is a little tricky. We get it solved. Hang in there.
Yes eriodically someone keeps trying to sabotage the system.
My special service reported it to me. 
I had the same problem and that is how I got the direct #.

Ingried


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there quite a few pro-Romney and anti-Obama ads in this thread? Are they in other KP threads?
> 
> If it's true that KP used to ban political talk but doesn't any more it could be because they decided to accept political advertising. If they are willing to accept ads from political candidates they can't very well have a rule against political conversations, can they?


Correct. Observant you are.


----------



## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > Please advise
> ...


This is just the kind of answer I was hoping for. I won't believe what I'm experiencing is not sabotage until I know the campaign has looked into it, and I have no connections with which to get out of a meaningless electronic loop.


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## onegrannygoose (May 13, 2011)

Some people have suggested not reading posts from people you have a strong disagreement with. I disagree with that I think you have to know all sides. You must know where the "enemy" is look what happened in Germany don't let anyone stop you from finding out all sides of a subject. Next some people will want to go back to burning books. Makes me very sad.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

onegrannygoose said:


> Some people have suggested not reading posts from people you have a strong disagreement with. I disagree with that I think you have to know all sides. You must know where the "enemy" is look what happened in Germany don't let anyone stop you from finding out all sides of a subject. Next some people will want to go back to burning books. Makes me very sad.


onegrannygoose

You are correct,we need to inform ourselves all around.
The problem is, there is NOTHING new ever coming from the other side. Boring. SOS for ages.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

onegrannygoose said:


> Some people have suggested not reading posts from people you have a strong disagreement with. I disagree with that I think you have to know all sides. ""
> 
> Under ordinary circumstances I agree with you completely. However in this case it is the same vitriolic message, over and over, and doesn't make any sense. I agree we must make ourselves very aware of what is being said by those who have
> completely different agendas. I read everything that was written until about a week ago and decided that nothing of new interest was being posted and most of it was being repeated over and over, and most of it could be proven to be untrue. If the posts had been backed by links to the statements, or if
> ...


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I am stating an opinion only. The radical right is prone to violence and hatred which seeps out with every word and action. They're probably paid by Karl Rove's organization to run around spouting all this junk. They appear at Democratic rallies, etc. to stir up trouble. When it gets scary is when they walk around with weapons, either concealed or strapped to their legs. Their intent is to instill fear through demonstration of force and through spouting lies. That's how they get the rest of their "side" to respond by voting against their own interests. They smell of fascism. I'm speaking only of the far out there person on the right. And that's what we've been seeing on this site.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Al, I agree with your use of the F word.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

alcameron

It has been made very clear who has the weapons at who's back. The NRA keeps the troops in goosesteps.
These wimps are scared to death.
Been there seen that. And that is more than just an uncomfortable observation.

Why do you think that Romney absolutely refuses to
inform us of his plans for us.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Speaking of guns, is anybody else distressed about the yahoos in the secret service and wondering why Sullivan still has a job? Besides braying state secrets to random barflies after their shifts, remember the White House party crashers?

Even the service acknowledges it's very difficult to stop a determined lone assassin. I have been worried about this ever since Obama was elected and have been the opposite of reassured by the reported incidents of secret service lack of vigilance and frank idiocy. 

All due respect to Joe, imagine if we were going into this election with Biden as president. The definition of world catastrophe.

My own senator Leahy, a good blue man, supports Sullivan. I know because he told me, responding to my letter. He's chair of whatever committee oversees the secret service. One friend of mine said Sullivan is just a very good schmoozer.

It's something I worry about quite a bit.


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## BoBeau (Feb 18, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > I'd look for the local Democratic headquarters and mail in a donation. The Obama campaign isn't even close to Romney in fund-raising.
> ...


http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/campaign-finance/

Seems to me that $260,926,200 in campaign funds for Obama far exceeds the $122,024,185 for Romney.

as of May 31, 2012


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

BoBeau said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > alcameron said:
> ...


Those figures are from March when Mr. Obama was the incumbent and Mr. Romney was still in a field of many Republican candidates. It is very interesting to see how the chart of contributions compare.


----------



## BoBeau (Feb 18, 2011)

Sherry1 said:


> BoBeau said:
> 
> 
> > MaryMargaret said:
> ...


----------



## BoBeau (Feb 18, 2011)

BoBeau said:


> Sherry1 said:
> 
> 
> > BoBeau said:
> ...


Please reread the date in the article. It clearly states May 31, 2012 (not March) 
It also states that as of March 2012, Obama has 10 times the campaign money as Romney.
Can you find a new report?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

During the month of June, Romney added $100 million to his campaign fund and Obama added around $70 million. I'm not sure of the exact numbers. I heard it last night on the Rachel Maddow Show. Romney has a personal fortune at his disposal, and Obama's donations are mostly $200 and less.


----------



## BoBeau (Feb 18, 2011)

alcameron said:


> During the month of June, Romney added $100 million to his campaign fund and Obama added around $70 million. I'm not sure of the exact numbers. I heard it last night on the Rachel Maddow Show. Romney has a personal fortune at his disposal, and Obama's donations are mostly $200 and less.


Adding $70 million to 260 still is more than adding a $100 million to 122.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I have no interest in quibbling about who raised how much money. I just think that Obama and the Dems will be outspent between now and November. Just my opinion.


----------



## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Thank you, BoBeau, that is an interesting NYT report from several weeks ago. 

I do not believe it includes money available to political action committees (PACs) or SuperPACs.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Thank you, BoBeau, that is an interesting NYT report from several weeks ago.
> 
> I do not believe it includes money available to political action committees (PACs) or SuperPACs.


To date:
Romney has 3x as much as Obama and the numbers are increasing in favor of Romney.
Tough to accept isn't it that one's Candidate has been doing nothing other than campaigning for years and still needs just about a billion to have a Chance to win.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

The pacs and superpacs do not have to tell you anything about their money. Someone from a foreign country could be buying Romney and you wouldn't know.


----------



## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Please advise
> 
> For the past two weeks when I try to donate to the Obama campaign in response to an e mail from the campaign, either my browser crashes or the system won't accept the month/year of my credit card. This is new, it used to work well. I've notified the campaign by e mail, haven't received an acknowledgment.
> 
> Am I paranoid to suspect sabotage somewhere in cyberspace? Who should I notify and how? How much energy should I put into trying to communicate this to the campaign?


MaryMargaret, if you can share the website you are attempting to contribute through (here or by PM if you prefer), I will use one of my credit cards to see if my attempt is successful or not. I was planning to make a contribution this week, anyway, but I was going to drop it off at the newly-opened Obama office here in Loveland. I just met the young man who is heading it at our last Progressives' meeting and was very impressed. Seems calm, organized, smart, enthusiastic. I came away with renewed hope and that felt really, really good.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

I didn't see a date on the article itself, only the statement that on May 31st Romney was the only candidate running and the comparison to March when Romney was not the Republican front runner. I was merely wondering how current the figures might be...May or June


----------



## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

NJG said:


> The pacs and superpacs do not have to tell you anything about their money. Someone from a foreign country could be buying Romney and you wouldn't know.


Thanks to the Supreme Court.

Which is why I say they've bought the judicial branch, they've bought the legislative branch, and they will do everything they can to buy the executive branch for a trifecta.


----------



## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

ctknoll25 said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > Please advise
> ...


Thanks Ct knoll...

https://donate.barackobama.com/Closing-the-Gap

That's the link embedded in the e mail message that you click to get to the donation page, and that crashed my browser or would not accept all the necessary information. I don't know if getting to the site another way will duplicate the experience or not. Thanks for trying it.


----------



## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Sherrod Brown D-Ohio

Anybody know anything about him? He seems to be circulating an online petition to overturn Citizens United. In fact, an ad for it appears here in this thread. First I'd heard of it.

I don't sign online petitions but am interested in what others may know about Sherrod Brown and his activities.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

ctknoll25 said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > Please advise
> ...


ctknoll25
I have been contacted by three different newly opened
Obama Campaign Offices.
2 managed by young Men, one a Women.
Well mannered. bright, articulate and extremely well informed.
I am impressed.
Organized to the hilt.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> Sherrod Brown D-Ohio
> 
> Anybody know anything about him? He seems to be circulating an online petition to overturn Citizens United. In fact, an ad for it appears here in this thread. First I'd heard of it.
> 
> I don't sign online petitions but am interested in what others may know about Sherrod Brown and his activities.


Good Man. Have been following him for some time.
So unlike the Brown running against Elizabeth Warren. Is that guy ever weird.


----------



## BoBeau (Feb 18, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I have no interest in quibbling about who raised how much money. I just think that Obama and the Dems will be outspent between now and November. Just my opinion.


They why did you post it in the first place?


----------



## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

May I suggest another huge danger: Diebold voting machines. They were alive and well in Bush's second "win."

Then there's the illegality of voter suppression. 

Sigh, sometimes I can't hardly stand it -- well, most of the time.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Five Ways Republicans Have Sabotaged Job Growth

This speaks for itself. New numbers released today by the Bureau of Labor Statistics show that the economy added a mere 80,000 jobs in June. Thats down from an average of 150,000 jobs a month for the first part of the year, and far too little to keep up with population growth.

Republican intransigence on economic policy has been a key contributor to the sluggish recovery. As early as 2009, Republican fear-mongering over spending and their readiness to filibuster in the Senate helped convince the White House economic team that an $800 billion stimulus was the most they could hope to get through Congress. Reporting has since revealed that the team thought the country actually needed a stimulus on the order of $1.2 to $1.8 trillion. The economys path over the next three years proved them right. Here are the top five ways the Republicans have sabotaged the economic recovery since:


1. Filibustering the American Jobs Act. Last October, Senate Republicans killed a jobs bill proposed by President Obama that would have pumped $447 billion into the economy. Multiple economic analysts predicted the bill would add around two million jobs and hailed it as defense against a double-dip recession. The Congressional Budget Office also scored it as a net deficit reducer over ten years, and the American public supported the bill.

2. Stonewalling monetary stimulus. The Federal Reserve can do enormous good for a depressed economy through more aggressive monetary stimulus, and by tolerating a temporarily higher level of inflation. But with everything from Ron Pauls anti-inflationary crusade to Rick Perry threatening to lynch Chairman Ben Bernanke, Republicans have browbeaten the Fed into not going down this path. Most damagingly, the GOP repeatedly held up President Obamas nominations to the Federal Reserve Board during the critical months of the recession, leaving the board without the institutional clout it needed to help the economy.

3. Threatening a debt default. Even though the country didnt actually hit its debt ceiling last summer, the Republican threat to default on the United States outstanding obligations was sufficient to spook financial markets and do real damage to the economy.

4. Cutting discretionary spending in the debt ceiling deal. The deal the GOP extracted as the price for avoiding default imposed around $900 billion in cuts over ten years. It included $30.5 billion in discretionary cuts in 2012 alone, costing the country 0.3 percent in economic growth and 323,000 jobs, according to estimates from the Economic Policy Institute. Starting in 2013, the deal will trigger another $1.2 trillion in cuts over ten years.

5. Cutting discretionary spending in the budget deal. While not as cataclysmic as the debt ceiling brinksmanship, Republicans also threatened a shutdown of the government in early 2011 if cuts were not made to that years budget. The deal they struck with the White House cut $38 billion from food stamps, health, education, law enforcement, and low-income programs among others, while sparing defense almost entirely.

There have also been a few near-misses, in which the GOP almost prevented help from coming to the economy. The Republicans in the House delayed a transportation bill that saved as many as 1.9 million jobs. House Committees run by the GOP have passed proposals aimed at cutting billions from food stamps, and the party has repeatedly threatened to kill extensions of unemployment insurance and cuts to the payroll tax. 

According to the Congressional Budget Office, those policies  the payroll tax cut, food stamps, unemployment insurance, and discretionary spending for low-income Americans  have the highest multipliers, meaning more job boosting potential per dollar.

Source: Think Progress Economy 7/6/2012


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Colorado knits said:


> May I suggest another huge danger: Diebold voting machines. They were alive and well in Bush's second "win."
> 
> Then there's the illegality of voter suppression.
> 
> Sigh, sometimes I can't hardly stand it -- well, most of the time.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

BoBeau said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > I have no interest in quibbling about who raised how much money. I just think that Obama and the Dems will be outspent between now and November. Just my opinion.
> ...


What are you asking, please?


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

LillyK
Your post is extremely informative. Thank you.
Unfortunately way over the head of so many because they are unwilling to face the truth.


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Sharky said:


> Colorado knits said:
> 
> 
> > May I suggest another huge danger: Diebold voting machines. They were alive and well in Bush's second "win."
> ...


Another fine LPD day of jocularity and entertainment.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Colorado knits said:


> May I suggest another huge danger: Diebold voting machines. They were alive and well in Bush's second "win."
> 
> Then there's the illegality of voter suppression.
> 
> Sigh, sometimes I can't hardly stand it -- well, most of the time.


First they steal the votes which have been cast (Bush).
Now they want to steal the People's right to vote.
Desperate People do desperate things.

Don't despair, all progress has been fought for hard and it has never been denied.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Sharky said:


> Sharky said:
> 
> 
> > Colorado knits said:
> ...


Always wondered about your Portrait Sharky.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Resolved, that these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent States, that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved - ORIGINAL TEXT.

Resolved, that these United VOTERS are, and of right ought to be, free and independent VOTERS, that they are absolved from all allegiance to the GOP THEOCRACY, and that all political connection between them and the SLAVES OF WEALTH is, and ought to be, totally dissolved - MY Addendums. 

Christian Howell's comment on an article about the religious right and teaparty folks who like Muslim extremests are trying to impose their religious and political beliefs on the citizens of the United States. There is no difference between these two extremes and they are both enemies of the United States and are trying to bring about the end of everything good that America is. We have our work cut out for us so get some rest tonight.


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> Sharky said:
> 
> 
> > Sharky said:
> ...


You are looking in the mirror Ingried.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Resolved, that these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent States, that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved - ORIGINAL TEXT.
> 
> Resolved, that these United VOTERS are, and of right ought to be, free and independent VOTERS, that they are absolved from all allegiance to the GOP THEOCRACY, and that all political connection between them and the SLAVES OF WEALTH is, and ought to be, totally dissolved - MY Addendums.
> 
> Christian Howell's comment on an article about the religious right and teaparty folks who like Muslim extremests are trying to impose their religious and political beliefs on the citizens of the United States. There is no difference between these two extremes and they are both enemies of the United States and are trying to bring about the end of everything good that America is. We have our work cut out for us so get some rest tonight.


LillyK
I hear you loud and clear.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

This is just one of the Mitt Romney supporters. Mitt has pretty poor judgement associating with Mr. Nuggent. Why would he want to associate with such people? Really makes one question Romney's judgement.

Ted Nugent, the American rock singer known for his conservative politics and love of guns, also believes that the country would have been a better place had slavery won out. In a column for the Washington Times today, Nugent complains about a lack of regard for states rights, then says, Im beginning to wonder if it would have been best had the South won the Civil War. The statement isnt a total surprise from a man who often dons confederate flag shirts and recently made a veiled threat to kill the President. But it does underline potential political repercussions for Mitt Romney, who actively sought Nugents endorsement.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

LillyK said:


> This is just one of the Mitt Romney supporters. Mitt has pretty poor judgement associating with Mr. Nuggent. Why would he want to associate with such people? Really makes one question Romney's judgement.
> 
> Ted Nugent, the American rock singer known for his conservative politics and love of guns, also believes that the country would have been a better place had slavery won out. In a column for the Washington Times today, Nugent complains about a lack of regard for states rights, then says, Im beginning to wonder if it would have been best had the South won the Civil War. The statement isnt a total surprise from a man who often dons confederate flag shirts and recently made a veiled threat to kill the President. But it does underline potential political repercussions for Mitt Romney, who actively sought Nugents endorsement.


I saw Nugents "performance" despicable.

Check into the private Life of Ted Nugent, it makes you gag.
Several wives, several children out of wedlock (different Mothers) deadbeat Dad, liason with an underage girl and so that he could continue his fling with her, adopted her.
A real Jewel. Nice.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

The Liberal Progressive Democratic "propaganda" formula for "SUPPRESSING" OPPOSING VIEW POINTS OR SPECIFIC ISSUES: SMEAR, DECEIVE, AVOID AT ALL COSTS REVEALING THEIR EXPERIENCES AS TO WHY WE SOULD BELIEVE THEM.

Repeat the same messages over and over again..do not tolerate the views. opinions, of others.

J. Goebbels

PS Ingried, you are an expert on the above.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I just posted it because I thought it interesting and maybe because I thought progressives might be interested in donating if they could. Your information was accurate, and I didn't intend my post to be argumentative. It was just something I heard on a news show. My opinion is that Romney will have a greater campaign chest than Obama, that's all.

This was for BoBeau


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Congratulations An important wedding took place today.


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

CEO got paid 44 Million for 48 hrs. of work.

No wonder they can't hire. Need the money for the top and ship abroad = Switzerland, Belgium, some Islands.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Colorado knits said:


> May I suggest another huge danger: Diebold voting machines. They were alive and well in Bush's second "win."
> 
> Then there's the illegality of voter suppression.
> 
> Sigh, sometimes I can't hardly stand it -- well, most of the time.


Yes, the GOP is getting voter ID laws passed to disenfranchise those who tend to vote Democratic--minorities, students, some of the elderly. In Pennsylvania almost 10% are without valid voter ID because of a recently passed law. (Huffington Post)


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Colorado knits said:
> 
> 
> > May I suggest another huge danger: Diebold voting machines. They were alive and well in Bush's second "win."
> ...


Wrong, they don't want to disenfranchise anyone, but want a fair vote, unlike the last election. Anybody remember Acorn?


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

ctknoll25 said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > Please advise
> ...


Of course you can do it online, I do it all the time. You all are forgetting about massive billionaire George Soros who funded Obamas campaign in 2008. Am sure he's doing the same this year.

There are more registered Dems in the US than Republicans. If he's not getting the money from his base, he's in trouble.

Just type in fund Obama and you should get his campaign headquarters website. Specifically it's barackobama.com. You can also volunteer on line or go to your local headquarters. You can even make phone calls to registered dems at home.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

From the GOP House Majority Leader, Pennsylvania. A telling comment

"Voter ID -- which is going to allow Gov. [Mitt] Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania -- done," Turzai told a group of cheering attendees at a Republican State Committee meeting.


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

alcameron said:


> From the GOP House Majority Leader, Pennsylvania. A telling comment
> 
> "Voter ID -- which is going to allow Gov. [Mitt] Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania -- done," Turzai told a group of cheering attendees at a Republican State Committee meeting.


I would be very surprised if Romney would win PA, very unlikely.

But I have been known to be wrong--it was once when I thought I was wrong!


----------



## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

alcameron said:


> From the GOP House Majority Leader, Pennsylvania. A telling comment
> 
> "Voter ID -- which is going to allow Gov. [Mitt] Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania -- done," Turzai told a group of cheering attendees at a Republican State Committee meeting.


Well, when you got by with stealing an election once, why not try it a 2nd time.

First time they stole the votes cast (Bush).
This time they try to steal the right to vote.
Wonderful Christian group.


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > From the GOP House Majority Leader, Pennsylvania. A telling comment
> ...


Are you a Christian or not a Christain? Sometimes you are and then you aren't. No wonder you are confusing yourself.

Night, Ingried, going to play Scrabble now. You are welcome to joine anytime. Invitation is always open for you or anyone else.


----------



## ctknoll25 (May 10, 2011)

Very interesting.... I tried three times and each time my browser crashed just as a blurry image of a form appeared. Never even got close to having anything to fill in. I'm not all that tech savvy but I did report it to Apple for whatever that may be worth. 

As to Sherrod Brown, I find him to be most impressive. He opposed the Iraq War, for one thing, and he's strong on support of LGBT rights, is a strong communicator. I wasn't aware of the Citizens United online petition. I did sign one on Bernie Sanders' site, and have signed a few others online. Is there a reason that might not be wise?


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> Sharky said:
> 
> 
> > Sharky said:
> ...


You're looking in the mirror!


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Ingried said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > This is just one of the Mitt Romney supporters. Mitt has pretty poor judgement associating with Mr. Nuggent. Why would he want to associate with such people? Really makes one question Romney's judgement.
> ...


An then there was the private life of Edward Kennedy !


----------



## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

ctknoll25 said:


> Very interesting.... I tried three times and each time my browser crashed just as a blurry image of a form appeared. Never even got close to having anything to fill in. I'm not all that tech savvy but I did report it to Apple for whatever that may be worth.
> 
> As to Sherrod Brown, I find him to be most impressive. He opposed the Iraq War, for one thing, and he's strong on support of LGBT rights, is a strong communicator. I wasn't aware of the Citizens United online petition. I did sign one on Bernie Sanders' site, and have signed a few others online. Is there a reason that might not be wise?


Try a different site, you may want to clean your history, cookies and cache. Maybe it was just busy. Try again tomorrow. It's ok to sign online as long as you know it's a safe sight. Or it could be those mean and ornery republicans have access to your computer!!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> From the GOP House Majority Leader, Pennsylvania. A telling comment
> 
> "Voter ID -- which is going to allow Gov. [Mitt] Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania -- done," Turzai told a group of cheering attendees at a Republican State Committee meeting.


They forget how well Obama did in Pennsylvania.WE have to reach out to college students and make sure they get absentee ballots from their home states. As for the very eldery, I'm not sure how much time and money it will cost them to get a state ID. We have to reach out to them too!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Sharky said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > LillyK said:
> ...


That's old news. Go back to your own playground.


----------



## frankie2963 (Mar 25, 2012)

MaryMargaret said:


> Please advise
> 
> For the past two weeks when I try to donate to the Obama campaign in response to an e mail from the campaign, either my browser crashes or the system won't accept the month/year of my credit card. This is new, it used to work well. I've notified the campaign by e mail, haven't received an acknowledgment.
> 
> Am I paranoid to suspect sabotage somewhere in cyberspace? Who should I notify and how? How much energy should I put into trying to communicate this to the campaign?


To anyone wishing to make a donation no matter which party you are donating to I cannot stress enough DO NOT make the donation through an email link you may be directed to a phising site and therefore be robbed...please get a hold of your local campaign office and do it through them directly...you can use your credit card either over the phone and only on a call you originate or in the mail ask them to mail you an official donation form there is a place on it for your credit card number and signature...please be safe in making your donations...


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Very good advice, frankie!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Ingried said:


> Congratulations An important wedding took place today.


Yes it did! :-D


----------



## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

Scott walker was able to pass Voter ID. In Wisconsin but it has been challenged as it should be. It should not be a factor here in November.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Pelosi-Boehner photo: lots of buzz 
Photo taken 6/29/2012

Click! This photo speaks louder than words.

The snap of House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., seemed to say it all, about the emotions surrounding the Supreme Court's decision to uphold President Obama's health care law--even though the photo was taken the day before and had nothing to do with the health care news.

The quirky picture was first surfaced by the Atlantic's Molly Ball, who tweeted it on Thursday afternoon, the day after it was snapped.

The photo quickly caught the attention of the Web. The Washington Post even held a caption contest.

The image, taken on Wednesday by a sharp-eyed Associated Press photographer at an event honoring members of the Montford Point Marines, seemed to express the partisan mood of the country.

Pelosi looks joyful; Boehner looks like a child who has had his toys taken away from him. Or maybe just a man sentenced to eating a lot of broccoli.

Comments like these on the photo were typical. Wrote @comancheblood: " boehner about to cry." @SovernNation added, "Way more than 1000 words! Sums up #SCOTUS reax perfectly."

Indeed Pelosi was thrilled by the decision, tweeting, "Victory for the American people!" Boehner, for his part, vowed to repeal the law.


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## Latinbeat (Apr 4, 2011)

I am new and not sure what your previous thread were. However, I was watching CNN yesterday in regards to the health care systems in other countries. Interesting enough, Switzerland seems to have a great system. All surgeries are covered by government! 

Seems that President Obama's health care reform, is based on the Switzerland impact. People are with less chronic illnesses, low mortality rate, etc. 

I would lbe interested to hear more from a native person in Switzerland about their personal pros and cons on their health care system.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Hi LatinBeat - Welcome to the Cafe. I am not very familiar with Switzerland's health plan but as more users come to the forum one may know about Switzerland and be able to answer your questions. I am thrilled that we are finally moving in that direction.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

LillyK said:


> Five Ways Republicans Have Sabotaged Job Growth
> 
> This speaks for itself. New numbers released today by the Bureau of Labor Statistics show that the economy added a mere 80,000 jobs in June. Thats down from an average of 150,000 jobs a month for the first part of the year, and far too little to keep up with population growth.
> 
> ...


And what all that does is let the republicans blame Obama and the democrats for their "failed policies." How many times do you hear that?


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Ingried said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > This is just one of the Mitt Romney supporters. Mitt has pretty poor judgement associating with Mr. Nuggent. Why would he want to associate with such people? Really makes one question Romney's judgement.
> ...


I didn't know that about Nugent, the adoption part. I am sitting here with my mouth open. You would think Romney would have the brains to check these people out before getting close to them. 
It was all for the NRA. One of his sons was totally impressed with Nugent. And the way Romney was all gaga over the Donald. sick


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> From the GOP House Majority Leader, Pennsylvania. A telling comment
> 
> "Voter ID -- which is going to allow Gov. [Mitt] Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania -- done," Turzai told a group of cheering attendees at a Republican State Committee meeting.


There has been a lawsuit brought against this, so I hope it takes care of it.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

Hi latinbeat.
I have friends in both Germany and Switzerland. To the best of my knowledge they have socialized medicine and have a very high income tax rate. Obamacare plans to make health insurance available and affordable for all. Those with lower incomes will be able to receive aid to help pay for this. Those with high incomes who chose not to insure themselves will pay the penalty/tax.
Many years ago my brother-in-law was teaching a summer course in Denmark. While there, his daughter needed to go to the emergency room. He asked what he owed for the treatment and they said you owe nothing.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

NJG said:


> alcameron said:
> 
> 
> > From the GOP House Majority Leader, Pennsylvania. A telling comment
> ...


NJG
For as much as I may not like what these Folks are saying I am most happy that they expose themselves. We are learning a great deal these days.


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## onegrannygoose (May 13, 2011)

Voter ID is an interesting concept. I know here in Calif we have illegal aliens voting and have for a few years it is not new. And everyone knows it. To register to vote here you don't even have to speak English. The ballets are printed in at least 2 languages. Spanish and English. It is unfortunate that checking to see if you are really eligible to vote has sided with the republicans California is an interesting state. They just passed the first leg of spending billions of dollars to build a fast rail. This is a state the is close to bankruptcy 
I also watched Rachael Maddow the other day and with the supreme court saying that corporations are not people and therefore have no side you can donate as much money to any campaign or candidate as you want to. Consequently Mr. Rommney has more weallty contributers than Pres. Obama and is out spending him my unimagineable amounts. Here is Calif in our last gubnertoial election the republican candidate spend many times more money than Jerry Brown it did not work here People did not want anyone to buy the state 
This is going to be the most important election of our time.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

onegrannygoose said:


> Voter ID is an interesting concept. I know here in Calif we have illegal aliens voting and have for a few years it is not new. And everyone knows it. To register to vote here you don't even have to speak English. The ballets are printed in at least 2 languages. Spanish and English. It is unfortunate that checking to see if you are really eligible to vote has sided with the republicans California is an interesting state. They just passed the first leg of spending billions of dollars to build a fast rail. This is a state the is close to bankruptcy
> I also watched Rachael Maddow the other day and with the supreme court saying that corporations are not people and therefore have no side you can donate as much money to any campaign or candidate as you want to. Consequently Mr. Rommney has more weallty contributers than Pres. Obama and is out spending him my unimagineable amounts. Here is Calif in our last gubnertoial election the republican candidate spend many times more money than Jerry Brown it did not work here People did not want anyone to buy the state
> This is going to be the most important election of our time.


Voter fraud has been investigated extensively and the percentage has been found to be - FOR THE WHOLE NATION =
.0003% (repeat = point. zero zero zero three%) I expected it to be much, much higher but it is not.

If it is so well known that in your area there is voter fraud, it should be easy to erase. Who is not doing his/her job?
I hear those stories so often and when I really get into checking it, it does not exist, only accusations. Just went through such a
case in southern Oklahoma, someone just did not like somone-else and wanted to pin something on them.

Well money and Politics. The Supreme Court sure shafted us WE THE PEOPLE.
But let us not forget, the Generals do not win any War, the Soldiers do.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Sherry1 said:


> Hi latinbeat.
> I have friends in both Germany and Switzerland. To the best of my knowledge they have socialized medicine and have a very high income tax rate. Obamacare plans to make health insurance available and affordable for all. Those with lower incomes will be able to receive aid to help pay for this. Those with high incomes who chose not to insure themselves will pay the penalty/tax.
> Many years ago my brother-in-law was teaching a summer course in Denmark. While there, his daughter needed to go to the emergency room. He asked what he owed for the treatment and they said you owe nothing.


Taxes in Germany and Switzerland are high but the benefits from it extraodinary. I am willing to make that exchange any day.
Denmark an other Country which takes care of its People well
and Wages are very high. A Niece moved from there to Boston
on a Reserach Project and she is in shock.


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## onegrannygoose (May 13, 2011)

If votor fraud is 3 % it all takes place here in California. Except the 3 percent is what has been found not what really goes on.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Latinbeat said:


> I am new and not sure what your previous thread were. However, I was watching CNN yesterday in regards to the health care systems in other countries. Interesting enough, Switzerland seems to have a great system. All surgeries are covered by government!
> 
> Seems that President Obama's health care reform, is based on the Switzerland impact. People are with less chronic illnesses, low mortality rate, etc.
> 
> I would lbe interested to hear more from a native person in Switzerland about their personal pros and cons on their health care system.


You will be hard pressed to find any Swiss getting into this fray.
They take care of themselves, their Neighbors and their Country. They have practically three Countries within their Country, German, Italian and French and all functions well under
lots of strict rules, written and unwritten.
Important things are never decided upon quickly.
They never look for resolutions "yesterday", next year or a decade later is just fine. Women could not vote for ages but now are in the highest positions. 
We can learn a lot from them.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

onegrannygoose said:


> If votor fraud is 3 % it all takes place here in California. Except the 3 percent is what has been found not what really goes on.


It has been documented as .0003% not 3% and no it is not all in your State.
I know your State has problems but its People overall are very good People.
Rotten Apples can be found in any Bushel anywhere.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

onegrannygoose said:


> If votor fraud is 3 % it all takes place here in California. Except the 3 percent is what has been found not what really goes on.


I believe the figure was .003%...


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

In Wisconsin a state legislator lost his seat in a recall election. He lst by some 800 votes. He asked for and received a recount. The difference was a mere handfull of votes determined to be human error not fraud. I agree that if this is such a huge problem in California someone is asleep at the wheel or there is a huge problem with their registration process. Is this a perceived problem in CA or are there facts to back this claim?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I found this info on the California Voter Registration website. I don't know if there's a lot of fraud involved. I'll look for more info.

How can a person prove his or her citizenship?

California Elections Code section 2111 permits a person to prove they are a citizen who is eligible to register to vote by signing the affidavit of registration under penalty of perjury.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I found this info on the California Voter Registration website. I don't know if there's a lot of fraud involved. I'll look for more info.
> 
> How can a person prove his or her citizenship?
> 
> California Elections Code section 2111 permits a person to prove they are a citizen who is eligible to register to vote by signing the affidavit of registration under penalty of perjury.


Citizenship; excellent question.

Had a Neighbor (in her 80s) who was in need of a Birth Certificate and was not even sure which Town she was born in.
Grew up on a large Farm with 11 siblings and only limited formal education.
Took some doing but I located the still questionable information.
Statistics were not very important in the days of her Birth, working in the Fields was.
Some American born People have Birth Certificates in German.
The only lanugage spoken and taught in their Home Towns then.
That will confuse some "Pole Police" for sure.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

The reports of voter fraud I've found have to do with republicans employing people to conduct petition drives or voter registration drives, then changing the person's party preference to "republican." this isn't the info I was looking for, but this is what I found. I was actually wondering about people falsifying registration forms swearing they were citizens when they weren't.


Posted by Patrick on May 5, 2012 in On the Left
The California Secretary of States Election Fraud Division is now reportedly investigating a GOP firm hired by the Sacramento County Republican Party charged with submitting  thousands of fraudulent voter registration forms. According to a report today from Sacramento ABC affiliate News10, a private, for-profit firm calling itself Momentum Political Services, hired by the local Republican Party to boost GOP registration ranks in key battleground communities has turned in more than 3,100 hundred invalid voter registration cards during their recent drive.
This is one more crime in the GOPs long and shameful history of voter registrtion fraud and vote suppression, documented below
This dwarfs the untrue charges made against ACORN by Republicans in their smear campaign.  It turns out that it is Republicans who are defrauding voters on a mass scale, pat of their ongoing Republican War on Democracy
The California GOP voter registration firm turned in forms allegedly with fake addresses, voter names that dont exist, duplicate Social Security numbers, and party affiliations that seem to have been changed by someone to Republican. The head of the firm has admitted she has hired workers with criminal backgrounds, as found via Craigslist.  This makes any mistakes in voter registration charged to ACORN look small by comparison as this is registration fraud for the GOP on a mass scale in California.


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## Sherry1 (May 14, 2011)

Good point Ingried. My parents who were in their 90's did not have birth certificates. They both do have baptismal certificates! Neither of them missed an election until dementia arrived. I don't know if they had passports but there must have been alternatives to the birth certificate. My MIL who was born in 1912 didn't have a birth certificate either.


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## farosfriend (Jul 7, 2012)

I am completely new to the whole Forum. I just realized it would probably take me a few lifetimes to look at all the wonderful pictures so I came over to General Chit-Chat to get an little idea of what members of the Forum are like. 

This topic is very interesting. I have one question and one remark so here goes. 
Question: Why are there so many long quotes of what others said before someone's response? Maybe I'm just being greedy and want to get to the "good parts" (the newest posts), but I'm curious, too.

Remark: Try "The Jeffersonian Bible, The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" by Thomas Jefferson. A copy of it is given to every new member of Congress. It's fascinating to read what one of our founding fathers thought was most important in the New Testament.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Welcome, farosfriend.

I've seen the Jefferson Bible and am in sync with what Jefferson was trying to do. In my opinion, that was to distill the extremely beneficial (and radical at the time) moral teachings of Christ, and take out the supernatural fairy-tale part. 

I had no idea the Jefferson Bible was given to new members of Congress! Never heard of that before! (Along with many other things I've never heard of, no doubt.) Can you refer me to an online site that verifies that? I'm quite interested.

As to the quote quote quotes... I think usually that happens because somewhere in that string of quotes is something the poster wants to refer to, or object to, or maybe to object to the whole line of conversation...and rather than picking out the relevant parts, copying and pasting them in the new post, they just check the box that includes the previous postings. I suggest that, instead, you write ""Xxx said:" then copy and paste after it the comment you're responding to. Then write your own post. You get a lot more clarity for very little work.

We welcome new people to this Chat Cafe and apologize if you find some heated exchanges that don't quite meet the societal standards of courtesy! It's a public forum and we're all passionate about our politics. We really TRULY want to keep it respectful and civil but still entertain and discuss ALL views. We don't always succeed with the "respectful and civil part." But we try!

Again, welcome and I look forward to your contributions.

The other method tends to insure people will pretty much ignore what you write.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

Welcome, farosfriend.

I've seen the Jefferson Bible and am in sync with what Jefferson was trying to do. In my opinion, that was to distill the extremely beneficial (and radical at the time) moral teachings of Christ, and take out the supernatural fairy-tale part. 

I had no idea the Jefferson Bible was given to new members of Congress! Never heard of that before! (Along with many other things I've never heard of, no doubt.) Can you refer me to an online site that verifies that? I'm quite interested.

As to the quote quote quotes... I think usually that happens because somewhere in that string of quotes is something the poster wants to refer to, or object to, or maybe to object to the whole line of conversation...and rather than picking out the relevant parts, copying and pasting them in the new post, they just check the box that includes the previous postings. I suggest that, instead, you write ""Xxx said:" then copy and paste after it the comment you're responding to. Then write your own post. You get a lot more clarity for very little work. The other method tends to insure people will pretty much ignore what you write.The other method tends to insure people will pretty much ignore what you write.

We welcome new people to this Chat Cafe and apologize if you find some heated exchanges that don't quite meet the societal standards of courtesy! It's a public forum and we're all passionate about our politics. We really TRULY want to keep it respectful and civil but still entertain and discuss ALL views. We don't always succeed with the "respectful and civil part." But we try!

Again, welcome and I look forward to your contributions.


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## farosfriend (Jul 7, 2012)

Jefferson excluded everything in the New Testament except what were supposed to be Jesus' own words. I'm sure you've seen many Bibles where Jesus' words are printed in red. That's all that Jefferson put in his "Bible". 

Unfortunately, I can't tell you where to go to confirm that members of Congress are given a copy of Jefferson's "Bible". I know this was true at least 20 years ago, but the custom may have been abandoned. We can both "Google" the subject and find the answer. I have to go cook dinner now, but will search later this evening.

About the long quotes, I think a good alternative would be to start a response to someone's post by writing: I'm responding to what "Fill in User's Name" said about "Fill in Subject" and go from there.

I read the last 10 pqges of this topic and couldn't help but notice that some people are a bit too hot to handle. I would rather these people could participate in a more constructive way, but General Chit Chat is just that, all about things people are interested in or want to talk about that is non-knitting related. None of us gets to make the rules here except Admin, as I uderstand it.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

To farosfriend:

"Jefferson said...." one way to go for it. However you will find that when you respond to a lengthy writing, it is handy to have the original at hand (above) to refer back to.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

The Pope and Obama are sharing the same V.I.P. skybox in Yankee Stadium in front of a huge crowd.

The Pope leans towards Mr. Obama and said, "Do you know that with  one little wave of my hand I can make every person in this crowd go wild with  joy? This joy will not be a momentary Display, but will go deep into their hearts  and they'll forever speak of this Day and rejoice!"

Obama replied, "I seriously doubt that!  Really, with one little wave of  your hand?....Show me!"

So the Pope backhanded him and knocked him completely off the balcony!

And the crowd roared & cheered wildly and there was happiness and joy throughout the land!
Kind of brings a tear to your eye, doesn't it?


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

It is time to get back to economics. George Soros is a financier that everyone should be familiar with. Forbes rates his net worth at $20 billion as of March 2012. At age 81 he is listed as #22 of Forbes Billionaires.and 
#12 in the US.

Soros was born on August 12, 1930, in Hungary and endured the Nazi occupation...when his family name was changed to Schwartz. Although born as Jew, he grew up in an anti-semitic home and came to believe in many National Socialistic(Nazi) principles. George is an atheist.. In 1947, he emigrated to England and where he studied economics.

It is important to note...a point which is often overlooked...is that Nazis were a movement on the left, not the right.

He gained more $10 billion, in pounds, by practicing a simple principle of Capitalism when the UK in trouble with the European Exchange Rate Mechanism, Soros had learned to sell "short" when he sensed big investors were in trouble.

Among his several self bios, he portrayed himself as someone shared numerous traits with "God" in the Old Testament.

While the rest of the world losing billions of dollars, Soros made a "killing" by selling "[email protected] remarked that he's "having a very good crisis." Many others thought Soros had created the crisis by removing large sums of money from financial institutions 

With his personal fortune secured, he was able to put into practice his political beliefs...remember he was on the liberal left..

In both the Vietnam War and the Iraq War, his goal was to created "turmoil"
in the governement and the financial markets..which woulld allow him to increase his wealth. In turn he would use it to promote his political agenda to "contol the world."

Soros was very active in putting his money into many organizations to acomplish this. About 500...but, he had help.

There are two important things to note:
1.He selected Obama over Hillary as his choice for president to accomplish his agendas...Obama is working hard to win Soros' continued financial 

2. He predicts that we are headed for the worst world financial crisis since the Great Depression....A failure to keep the Euro afloat will trigger class war and riots in the streets of the US.

He believes it stated about 30 years ago in his book, "The Paradigm for Financial Markets.

Soros' Agenda...which Obama supports:

1. Eliminate "God" from Federal Buildings, pledges, money, etc.

2. Anti- Capitalism...the distribution of wealth should "not" be left open to the variances of a free markets but should controlled by the government as in Socialism to provide a more equal distribution of wealth...by a "global government"...like the U. N.

The "global government"will control all aspects of government from education to healthcare.

And, of course this means higher taxes...for all above the poverty line...the government of course will determine this.

...sort of funny for a man who has expensive tax lawyers to reduce his own taxes...like most rich people will continue to do...and there will still be political favors for constituents as in Nancy Pelosi's waivers from Obamacare for businesses in her voting district. My comment...but these favors...like "ear marks." will not end on Obama's watch.

3. "Cap-an-trade" to reduce CO2 emissions.

4. Reduce Global Warming.

5. Open immigration.

6. Ever-evolving Constitution....My comment. POTUS is ignoring the one we have now so how will the changes be enforced. Obama does have a book out on this, "The Audacity Of Hope."

7. Socialized medicine...Obamacare...at least Obama is trying.

8. Terrorism is a criminal matter not an act of war...My comment: This in the 
"works" by Obama's pals...when will Guatanamo close?

9. End Arab- Israeli conflicts...My comment...If Obama allows the Arabs to
Destroy Israel...that will take care of that one...Whew! Is this list getting long. FYI it is known as J Street.

10. Promote the Muslim Brotherhood...part of 9.

There is more...you can read them if you like...there is a lenthy one about keeping Van Jones Around...called Soros-Obama Connections. And keep all those organizations running...like ACORN...sorry lost that one.

Guten Nacht


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Sharky said:


> The Pope and Obama are sharing the same V.I.P. skybox in Yankee Stadium in front of a huge crowd.
> 
> The Pope leans towards Mr. Obama and said, "Do you know that with one little wave of my hand I can make every person in this crowd go wild with joy? This joy will not be a momentary Display, but will go deep into their hearts and they'll forever speak of this Day and rejoice!"
> 
> ...


To Sharky:
You again with the same stuff?

The Pope has no time to play.
Too much to worry about all of the Law Suits for Sexual abuse by his subordinates = Priests.
Too much to worry about being in the "red" because of
having had to pay for the despicable behavior of Priests.
Pfui, sexually abusing innocent Children is the lowest anyone can stoop. 
Show me what the Bible quotes about this?


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Being a clown again Ingried...since you used this word to describe another 
Forum member...it must be in jest...you would never stoop to SMEARS...
Isn't that LK' s job now?


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## Llamedos (Jul 4, 2012)

I know nothing too deeply of American politics but would never want to vote for people like this sharky person, they must be just like her with foul mouth and nasty mind. If they know of her writings they sack her for making them look ignorant


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## farosfriend (Jul 7, 2012)

Ingried, I understand what you said about how handy it is to have the post you're responding to right above what you have to say about it, but the qoutes appear in much smaller, greyed out type which I can't read. I don't think I'm the only 62 year old lady with bifocals who is interested the Cafe even though I am a newbie. It looks to me like there are some KPers who are giving the Cafe a lot of their attention, as you are, and probably remember several pages of remarks because they wrote most of them, so I'm still a bit confused about the need to make such long qoutes. Oh well, it's probably just one of those things.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

farosfriend said:


> Ingried, I understand what you said about how handy it is to have the post you're responding to right above what you have to say about it, but the qoutes appear in much smaller, greyed out type which I can't read. I don't think I'm the only 62 year old lady with bifocals who is interested the Cafe even though I am a newbie. It looks to me like there are some KPers who are giving the Cafe a lot of their attention, as you are, and probably remember several pages of remarks because they wrote most of them, so I'm still a bit confused about the need to make such long qoutes. Oh well, it's probably just one of those things.


To farosfriend.
Thank you for your response. 
Whatever solution can be found for making reading easier,
is certainly welcomed by me.
I too have problems at times to read the small print.
Surely someone other than myself is much better equipped to 
make reading enjoyable for all.
Nice to have you here.
Good Evening.
Ingried


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## frankie2963 (Mar 25, 2012)

Ingried said:


> Whatever solution can be found for making reading easier, is certainly welcomed by me.
> I too have problems at times to read the small print.


To farosfriend and Ingried:
I don't know which windows you are running but most of them have accessibility tools that have a screen magnifier which you can click on and exit as needed the other option would be a screen reader and there are all kinds of them with several different settings on so they read only what you are interested in having them read but they can cost depending on which one you choose you may be able to find a free shareware one online (search google for it)...some windows perating systems also come with a basic screenreader in them again if it is there then it would be under the accessibility tools...hope this helps


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

My favorite Senator calls it as he sees it. Sen. Bernie Sanders ( I ) Senator from Vermont 
Huff Post 6/27/12

The American people are angry. They are angry that they are being forced to live through the worst recession in our lifetimes -- with sky-high unemployment, with millions of people losing their homes and their life savings. They are angry that they will not have a decent retirement, that they can't afford to send their children to college, that they can't afford health insurance and that, in some cases, they can't even buy the food they need to adequately feed their families. 

They are angry because they know that this recession was not caused by the middle class and working families of this country. It was not caused by the teachers, firefighters and police officers and their unions who are under attack all over the country. It was not caused by construction workers, factory workers, nurses or childcare workers. 

This recession was caused by the greed, recklessness, and illegal behavior on Wall Street. And, what makes people furious is that Wall Street still has not learned its lessons. Instead of investing in the job-creating productive economy providing affordable loans to small and medium-size businesses, the CEOs of the largest financial institutions in this country have created the largest gambling casino in the history of the world.



NancyK


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Huff Post 7/7/2012

Arizona Governor Jan Brewer (R) has requested that the Supreme Court overturn a ruling that allows state employees to keep their same-sex partners on their benefits, including health insurance.

Brewer filed a petition for a writ of certiorari on July 2, requesting that the high court overturn the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit's September 2011 ruling in Diaz vs. Brewer. The pushback comes three months after the Ninth Circuit denied a request by Arizona state lawyers to re-hear the case with an 11-judge panel.

Last September, the Ninth Circuit's ruling prevented Arizona from implementing a law that would have barred state employees' same-sex partners from remaining on their health plans. The ruling affirmed a lower court's decision to place a preliminary injunction on the law.

The San Francisco Chronicle reported at the time:

The 3-0 ruling upheld a federal judge's injunction against a law that was signed by Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer in 2009 and was scheduled to take effect [in 2011]. Brewer's predecessor, Janet Napolitano, had authorized health benefits for state employees' domestic partners in April 2008 before leaving to become President Obama's Homeland Security secretary.

"The district court found that the plaintiffs demonstrated a likelihood of success on the merits, because they showed that the law adversely affected a classification of employees on the basis of sexual orientation, and did not further any of the states claimed justifiable interests," read the opinion.

In the initial complaint, the nine plaintiffs -- all state employees in same-sex domestic partnerships -- stated that if enacted, the loss of health coverage for their partners would cause "serious financial and emotional harm." The Ninth Circuit affirmed this complaint, acknowledging that there was a high likelihood of "irreparable harm" if the law were to go into effect.

As Chris Geidner notes, the Diaz plaintiffs have until August 6 to respond to Brewer's latest petition.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

I am so happy for Barney Frank and James Ready finally married.


By Tim McLaughlin

BOSTON, July 7 (Reuters) - U.S. Democratic Representative Barney Frank wed his longtime partner, James Ready, on Saturday, becoming the first sitting congressman to enter into a same-sex marriage.

Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick officiated the ceremony and added some levity by saying Frank, 72, and Ready, 42, had vowed to love each other through Democratic and Republican administrations alike, and even through appearances on Fox News, according to Al Green, a Democratic congressman from Texas.

"Barney was beaming," said Green, who attended the ceremony. He added that Frank, a champion of gay rights and the sweeping reform of Wall Street, shed a tear during the ceremony.

After exchanging their vows, Frank and Ready embraced each other, Green said. "It was no different than any other wedding I've attended when you have two people who are in love with each other," Green said.

Frank, a Massachusetts Democrat and a former chairman of the powerful House Financial Services Committee, has been an openly gay congressman since the late 1980s.

He is well known for his legislative acumen, including as an architect of the reforms in the Dodd-Frank bill, which U.S. President Barack Obama signed into law in 2010 in the wake of the financial crisis following the collapse of the sub-prime mortgage market.

Frank's office in January announced he would marry Ready, whom he met at a political fundraiser in Ready's home state of Maine. Ready lives in Ogunquit, where he does carpentry, painting and welding work. Frank and Ready have been involved since 2007.

The evening wedding took place at the Boston Marriott Newton in suburban Boston, attracting political luminaries including Nancy Pelosi, top Democrat in the U.S. House of Representatives, and Niki Tsongas, a Massachusetts Democratic representative.

Before the ceremony, Frank greeted family and friends in a traditional black tuxedo. He was tanned and appeared relaxed. News media were not allowed to attend the ceremony.

"We're not doing any media today," Frank told Reuters.

Frank won a seat in Congress in 1980 and said he will retire at the end of the current term. Besides championing financial reform and the rights of fisherman, Frank has been a vocal supporter of gay rights, which have been gathering support in public opinion polls and U.S. high courts.

In May, for example, a federal appeals court in Boston ruled that a U.S. law defining marriage as a union between a man and a woman unconstitutionally denies benefits to lawfully married same-sex couples.

The ruling on the 1996 law, the Defense of Marriage Act, marked a victory for gay rights groups and President Obama, whose administration announced last year it considered the law unconstitutional and would no longer defend it.

Also in May, President Obama openly endorsed gay marriage, a move that will surely be a flashpoint in the upcoming presidential election.

His Republican opponent, former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney, opposes gay marriage, saying marriage should be limited to a union between one man and one woman.

Eight of the 50 states and the District of Columbia permit gay marriage. Several polls show U.S. public support of gay marriage rising.

In 2004, Massachusetts became the first state in the country where same-sex couples could be legally married. More than 18,000 same-sex couples since then have wed in Massachusetts, according to MassEquality, an advocacy group for gays, bisexuals and transgender people. (Reporting By Tim McLaughlin; editing by Todd Eastham)


Copyright 2012 Thomson Reuters. Click for Restrictions.



Also on HuffPost:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

One guy just got paid $44 million to be CEO for a day. 

In an apparent corporate coup, Duke Energy, an electric power holding company that recently merged with Progress Energy, appears to have reneged on the spirit of its merger agreement with Progress, the Los Angeles Times reports. The merger agreement stipulated that the new company would have Progress' William Johnson as chief executive and Duke's James Rogers as executive chairman, according to The New York Times. 

But within hours of the merger's completion and installation of Johnson as CEO of the combined company, the board of directors asked for Johnson's resignation and installed Rogers as the combined company's CEO. For the mere day he served as CEO, Johnson was provided a compensation package which included $44 million, Forbes reports.

Johnson's yet unexplained ouster may have damaged the trust of the combined firm.

In a letter sent to the Wall Street Journal and The New York Times, former top director of Progress John Mullin stated that he viewed the action as "one of the greatest corporate hijackings in U.S. business history" (h/t Forbes).

Standard & Poor's, one of the largest global credit rating agencies, also made known its displeasure at the ouster. The ratings agency put Duke Energy on watch for a possible downgrade, according to Businessweek. 

Rogers is expected to meet with the merged company's directors early next week, according to the NYT. Meanwhile, Johnson's compensation is contingent on cooperating with Duke Energy and promises not to disparage the company. 

Johnson isn't the first CEO to net a huge paycheck on his way out. Former General Electric CEO Jack Welch took home $417,361,902 when he left the company. In addition, Doug Foshee could have actually gotten paid to not do his job. The CEO of El Paso at the time of the company's merger with Kinder Morgan in October was eligible for an exit package worth $95 million if he left within two years of the acquisition.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

From VoteVets.org 

Not a "true hero."

That's what Tea Party darling, Congressman Joe Walsh, said when he attacked Tammy Duckworth this week.

I've written to you about Tammy Duckworth before. Tammy served as a Black Hawk helicopter pilot in Iraq in 2004. She lost her legs in combat and was awarded the Purple Heart.

So to hear Joe Walsh's attack Tammy as not a "true hero" is ridiculous. We can't make him stop, but we can make him regret his comments by helping Tammy beat him in November.

Will you make Joe Walsh regret his attack buy contributing to Tammy's campaign right now?

I've also included the message I received from Jon Soltz and VoteVets.org about Joe Walsh's attacks below. Thanks for your support.

Wes Clark


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

From VoeVets.org 

Not a "true hero."

That's what Tea Party darling, Congressman Joe Walsh, said when he attacked Tammy Duckworth this week.

I've written to you about Tammy Duckworth before. Tammy served as a Black Hawk helicopter pilot in Iraq in 2004. She lost her legs in combat and was awarded the Purple Heart.

So to hear Joe Walsh's attack Tammy as not a "true hero" is ridiculous. We can't make him stop, but we can make him regret his comments by helping Tammy beat him in November.

Will you make Joe Walsh regret his attack buy contributing to Tammy's campaign right now?

I've also included the message I received from Jon Soltz and VoteVets.org about Joe Walsh's attacks below. Thanks for your support.

Wes Clark


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing - when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors - when you see that men get richer by graft than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you - when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice - you may know that your society is doomed."
--- Ayn Rand

And, Soros is your hero?


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Llamedos
Please show us one time on this thread or any other...where I said any thing 
foul...cannot be done. And, my nasty mind?

Your are on the thread where you belong...SMEARING...to suppress the views or opinions of others you do not agree with. 

Welcome, Ingried et al will love you.

PS The Daily Kos is always there for you as well.


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## farosfriend (Jul 7, 2012)

Llamedos, I'm a complete newbie on the KP Forum. I've managed to read about the last 20 pages of this topic and don't like the mean remarks some people like Sharky are making. I'm sorry you had to read what she and the few other mean, nasty people wrote. Every other part of the KP Forum seems filled with really nice people. I don't think I belong in this topic so I will ignore it from now on, and you can do the same if you want to.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

farosfriend

"mean, nasty? Those are SMEARS...the favorate way Liberal Progressives suppress the views or opinions of others that may not be your own.

I have provided you a nice Ayn Rand quote to start the day...of course she is a famous author who was writing about the "collectivism" in the old Soviet Union.

Llamedos may be right, if you cannot stand reading about "individualism" or the rights of individuals or minorities...you may find other threads more to your liking.

Otherwise, express you opinions...we on the right love a good debate...leave the name calling...AKA smears...to Ingried and friends.

You will it difficult if not imossible to see where that occurs on this thread...I recieve pages of PMs encouraging me to hang in there...only one which was filled with a vile comment...she did not want others to see.

lol


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

frankie2963 said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > Whatever solution can be found for making reading easier, is certainly welcomed by me.
> ...


Thank you frankie2963. This is a brand new "Confuser" I am using and have yet to get into all it has to offer.
I am using my other ones for specific work.
Thank you again for the tips.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Llamedos said:


> I know nothing too deeply of American politics but would never want to vote for people like this sharky person, they must be just like her with foul mouth and nasty mind. If they know of her writings they sack her for making them look ignorant


To Llamedos
Nice to see and hear you.
Ingried


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

We celebrated with a Glass of Wine the marriage of
Mr. Frank to his long time Partner.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

LillyK said:


> My favorite Senator calls it as he sees it. Sen. Bernie Sanders ( I ) Senator from Vermont
> Huff Post 6/27/12
> 
> The American people are angry. They are angry that they are being forced to live through the worst recession in our lifetimes -- with sky-high unemployment, with millions of people losing their homes and their life savings. They are angry that they will not have a decent retirement, that they can't afford to send their children to college, that they can't afford health insurance and that, in some cases, they can't even buy the food they need to adequately feed their families.
> ...


LillyK
Bernie Sanders is brilliant Man.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

This biography of George Soros is trash. The Nazi movement came from the far right.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

George Soros is progressive and has the money to make some of his ideas stick. And he's Jewish. And has funded blacks in South Africa.

Any one of those would incite the right against him. And I guess Glenn Beck has made it a sacred text that Soros is trying to rule the world.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

I share your happiness that Barney Frank and James Ready are finally married...
may all their problems be little ones.

lol


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

alcameron said:


> This biography of George Soros is trash. The Nazi movement came from the far right.


To alcameron

The Nazi movement came from the VERY right Right.

How well I know and to expose them as much as possible,
I signed up for them to have the right to have a March some time back. Many People wanted to prevent the March.
Not a good idea at all.
First of all they have the right to do so as much any anyone-else and knowing who they are is very beneficial.
Many of those are now in Prison because of their terrorism
and are lingering in solitary confinement.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> George Soros is progressive and has the money to make some of his ideas stick. And he's Jewish. And has funded blacks in South Africa.
> 
> Any one of those would incite the right against him. And I guess Glenn Beck has made it a sacred text that Soros is trying to rule the world.


Glenn Beck is a Nut.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Where have all the Watermelons with seeds gone?
These seedless ones are by far not as sweet. At least none we bought so far.

A slice of Toast with a piece of Watermelon, boiled ham
and poached or hard boiled egg on top, yummy.

We have to eat well, to stay well, to keep on working.


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## Tammy289 (Nov 22, 2011)

I think it is rude to post political opinions on a knitting site. The name of the site is Knitting Paradise. I go to political sites for political information. Because this site is accepting political issues instead of remaining true to its missision (knitting information) I will have to cancel my subscription and search for a different knitting forum..there are plenty listed. I hope others do also and then we can all meet at a real knitting web site.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

In some Countries War is their solution to differences, here we at least try through verbal exchanges.
I underwrite the latter any day.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Ingried said:


> LillyK said:
> 
> 
> > My favorite Senator calls it as he sees it. Sen. Bernie Sanders ( I ) Senator from Vermont
> ...


Hardly brilliant. What about the Congress that created the bill, to be signed into law by Bill Clinton, that resulted in the mess we are in today? Wall Street should not get all the blame. What about We The People that also contributed to the mess we are in today? We have over spent and overbought for far too many years and are now facing the consequences.

The American people have every right to be angry at the government, wall street, etc., but they should also be angry at themselves.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

LillyK
"Bernie Sanders, brilliant" clearly addressed to you, was it not?


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## onegrannygoose (May 13, 2011)

I know that you said .003% doesn't really matter In my opnion it is still inaccurate.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > LillyK said:
> ...


Yes they should be very mad and upset. There are 33 senate seats up for grabs! The senate races are as important or more than the presidential race.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> onegrannygoose said:
> 
> 
> > I know that you said .003% doesn't really matter In my opnion it is still inaccurate.
> ...


Oi weh!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Tammy289 said:


> I think it is rude to post political opinions on a knitting site. The name of the site is Knitting Paradise. I go to political sites for political information. Because this site is accepting political issues instead of remaining true to its missision (knitting information) I will have to cancel my subscription and search for a different knitting forum..there are plenty listed. I hope others do also and then we can all meet at a real knitting web site.


In this country we have the freedom to go to a knitting website and talk about anything we want under the heading general chit chat. If we see a topic we are not interested in, we don't click on it, but we don't tell others they can't read it if they choose to. That is the way freedom works. It just amazes me how many people want to control other peoples freedom.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > joeysomma said:
> ...


Oi weh!


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## frankie2963 (Mar 25, 2012)

Tammy289 said:


> I think it is rude to post political opinions on a knitting site. The name of the site is Knitting Paradise. I go to political sites for political information. Because this site is accepting political issues instead of remaining true to its missision (knitting information) I will have to cancel my subscription and search for a different knitting forum..there are plenty listed. I hope others do also and then we can all meet at a real knitting web site.


 Tammy,
I am so sorry that you feel this way seeing as this site and others are started to allow like minded people to not only discuss there Craft but also to come together and discuss all of the things they may have in common including religion and politics and though some may not like these subjects they are an integeral part of our lives and since we are forging relationships with those we talk to here it is a natural progression that these subjects can and do come up amongst friends...and as adults we should be able to discuss our views in a respectful manor in the right thread IE:General Chit-Chat (non-knitting talk) and as adults I believe that if we do not agree with such a conversation amongst friends then we should politely excuse ourself and respectfully ignore it...This is only my opinion so please do not take offense at what I have written here...


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## farosfriend (Jul 7, 2012)

Sharky, what we write and read and say and listen to all have an emotional content. You seem to be very angry, or at least to sound that way.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Hi folks, there is an old saying that my dad told me that says:

If we cannot disagree about any subject and remain friends, then ONE of us is NARROW AND SHALLOW!

Does this fit anyone?


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Janeway said:


> Hi folks, there is an old saying that my dad told me that says:
> 
> If we cannot disagree about any subject and remain friends, then ONE of us is NARROW AND SHALLOW!
> 
> Does this fit anyone?


 :thumbup:


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

farosfriend said:


> Sharky, what we write and read and say and listen to all have an emotional content. You seem to be very angry, or at least to sound that way.


I'm not a bit angry! I guess much to your chagrin!


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

NJG said:


> Tammy289 said:
> 
> 
> > I think it is rude to post political opinions on a knitting site. The name of the site is Knitting Paradise. I go to political sites for political information. Because this site is accepting political issues instead of remaining true to its missision (knitting information) I will have to cancel my subscription and search for a different knitting forum..there are plenty listed. I hope others do also and then we can all meet at a real knitting web site.
> ...


Our freedoms are being cut in front of us. So I am posting this to show my freedom to elect the 'best' candidate for President, any republican.


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## Sharky (Mar 7, 2012)

Janeway said:


> Hi folks, there is an old saying that my dad told me that says:
> 
> If we cannot disagree about any subject and remain friends, then ONE of us is NARROW AND SHALLOW!
> 
> Does this fit anyone?


I know a few!


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## Flashdance (Jul 19, 2012)

Ingried said:


> joeysomma said:
> 
> 
> > onegrannygoose said:
> ...


Oi web your self!


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## Flashdance (Jul 19, 2012)

Ingried said:


> We celebrated with a Glass of Wine the marriage of
> Mr. Frank to his long time Partner.


Does that mean you agree with anal intercourse?


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## Flashdance (Jul 19, 2012)

NJG said:


> Tammy289 said:
> 
> 
> > I think it is rude to post political opinions on a knitting site. The name of the site is Knitting Paradise. I go to political sites for political information. Because this site is accepting political issues instead of remaining true to its missision (knitting information) I will have to cancel my subscription and search for a different knitting forum..there are plenty listed. I hope others do also and then we can all meet at a real knitting web site.
> ...


NJG,
You are right in there with them.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Flashdance
What is anal intercourse?


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Flashdance said:


> Ingried said:
> 
> 
> > We celebrated with a Glass of Wine the marriage of
> ...


I don't have to agree with it. It's none of my business.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Whatever people do in the bedroom is their business and the government has no place in the bedrooms of Americans


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Northwoods Gal

let us not forget that the Folks who poopoo something the most, are the most fequent practitioners of it.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Northwoods Gal

let us not forget that the Folks who poopoo something the most, are the most frequent practitioners of it.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Yes, Ingried - Based on Shakespeare's "Hamlet", this is an adaptation of "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." It can be used for when anti-homosexual priests get caught having sex with male escorts or, more generally, when somebody fights against a proclivity that they, themselves, engage in

Getting busted with a rent-a-boy! I guess it's another case of Gertrude's Law.Gertrude's Law states that if a person is overly passionate about condemning a certain lifestyle choice, they most likely engage in that lifestyle secretly. Some notable examples are Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, and most recently Arifinto, an Indonesian MP who helped pass an anti-pornography law. He was later photographed looking at porn on his iPad during a parliamentary debate.

That family values preacher just got caught with a fourteen year old girl. It looks like further proof of Gertrude's Law.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Anyone who has a great need to tell others how good they are, has a lot to cover up.
Don't I know so many "good Christians" who have nothing good to offer!

The more one needs to be seen attending Services,
the greater the bag of sins they carry.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

I wonder if Flashdance is one of those performers who does lapdances and pole dances. Kind of sounds like it from the name doesn't it. I guess a guy has to work somewhere.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

I will congratulate Barney Frank and his bride(groom). I am for same sex marriage. I will also thank him for his wedding gift to the country by not running for reelection. Thanks Barney.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

I am so happy for Barney Frank that he longer as he said" has to be nice to People he really does not like". 
I am glad he is not running for re-election. He is of much more value on the outside now. Much, much more.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

I love Barney and I am so happy he can retire and live a good life that he can share with the man he loves. He has given a lot to our country and endured a lot from ignorant closed minded people. Quite an unselfish man.


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## admin (Jan 12, 2011)

Thread locked per OP's request.


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