# outrageous political



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

What is the most outrageous political statement or action you have ever done?

I have done quite a few and also my adult daughter has done a few crazy things. 

I sent thrift store linens to President and Nancy Reagan and had the local news in my home to do a story on it.


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## no1girl (Sep 4, 2012)

I keep as low a profile as is possible.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

I am interested in understanding why.


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## no1girl (Sep 4, 2012)

way I was reared. "sit over there, read your book and i dont want to hear a word from you all afternoon". at just on 80 I see no reason to do otherwise.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

I can understand that.


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## no1girl (Sep 4, 2012)

just as well, 'cause I aint gonna change my horse in midstream


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

The question is why do you need to flaunt your outrageous political actions?


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## mathwizard (Feb 24, 2011)

I steer clear of politics!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> The question is why do you need to flaunt your outrageous political actions?


Ouch!


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Sewbizgirl said:


> The question is why do you need to flaunt your outrageous political actions?


Flaunt is not the word. Encourage others to protest is the name of the game. What have you done to carry a political issue forward and affect positive change?


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## Lolly12 (Oct 10, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> What is the most outrageous political statement or action you have ever done?
> 
> I have done quite a few and also my adult daughter has done a few crazy things.
> 
> I sent thrift store linens to President and Nancy Reagan and had the local news in my home to do a story on it.


Do you really think that outrageous political statements or actions are the norm?You ask this question with a flippant attitude,my ire is definitely up.Why is there political B......t on this forum, you do this to cause trouble and i'm really pissed
:twisted:


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Lolly12 said:


> Do you really think that outrageous political statements or actions are the norm?You ask this question with a flippant attitude,my ire is definitely up.Why is there political B......t on this forum, you do this to cause trouble and i'm really pissed
> :twisted:


Why do you presume to know my motivation? Should I ask "What ways do you bury your head in the sand?" on important political issues. Why did you open the thread? Anything that is is norm is generally not going to create thought provoking discussion.


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## Lolly12 (Oct 10, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> What is the most outrageous political statement or action you have ever done?
> 
> I have done quite a few and also my adult daughter has done a few crazy things.
> 
> I sent thrift store linens to President and Nancy Reagan and had the local news in my home to do a story on it.


Do you really think that outrageous political statements or actions are the norm?You ask this question with a flippant attitude,my ire is definitely up.Why is there political B......t on this forum, you do this to cause trouble and i'm really pissed
:twisted: It is the same people that do this.You call yourself a "peacegoddess",you are a troublemaker.I am a very,friendly easy person to get along with,but I really have a bitter taste in my mouth right now.You arer looking for attention.Grow up


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## BunnyZ (Jan 12, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> What is the most outrageous political statement or action you have ever done?
> 
> I have done quite a few and also my adult daughter has done a few crazy things.
> 
> I sent thrift store linens to President and Nancy Reagan and had the local news in my home to do a story on it.


I have been and am active in the Trade Union movement. Everyone's point of view is of some value. Even if it makes us more certain of our own views. My involvement has allowed me to grow in my own trade and I hope helped others to progress. I guess one of the most exciting and heart pounding events I was involved in was a picket ( over 1000 of us} where armed security folks took photos of us from the roof tops. Everything turned out fine....but it makes you think about your motivation and resolution. Carry on with your convictions.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

BunnyZ said:


> I have been and am active in the Trade Union movement. Everyone's point of view is of some value. Even if it makes us more certain of our own views. My involvement has allowed me to grow in my own trade and I hope helped others to progress. I guess one of the most exciting and heart pounding events I was involved in was a picket ( over 1000 of us} where armed security folks took photos of us from the roof tops. Everything turned out fine....but it makes you think about your motivation and resolution. Carry on with your convictions.


Good for you and all your fellow union picketers! Remember that now you most likely have a FBI file.. So did Eleanor Roosevelt! We are in grand company.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Encourage others to protest? Why? I tend to believe t hat most people are capable of making their own decisions and forming their own opinions. MY concerns may not be those shared by my neighbors and theirs may not be ones that I share. 

While our first amendment protects our freedom of speech...sometimes it's wiser to keep your mouth shut.


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## Lolly12 (Oct 10, 2012)

I DID NOT OPEN THIS THREAD YOU DID?hOW OLD ARE YOU?I am not an American,I don't give a S..t about politics.I have been on this earth long enough to know who the people are that need to be in the spotlight.Tell me what motivates you to childish behavior.Go away


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

courier770 said:


> Encourage others to protest? Why? I tend to believe t hat most people are capable of making their own decisions and forming their own opinions. MY concerns may not be those shared by my neighbors and theirs may not be ones that I share.
> 
> While our first amendment protects our freedom of speech...sometimes it's wiser to keep your mouth shut.


Why wiser?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Lolly12 said:


> I DID NOT OPEN THIS THREAD YHOU DID?hOW OLD ARE YOU?I am not an American,I don't give a S..t about politics.I have been on this earth long enough to know who the people are that need to be in the spotlight.Tell me what motivates you childish behavior.Go away


You accessed the thread. You made the decision to read it and read it more than once and now you are unhappy with what is here. I can understand that, but why the anger and demand for me to go away? Who is demonstrating childish behavior...you or me?


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## ladysjk (Dec 16, 2011)

There is a whole section dedicated to political post, that may be a better place to post this question?? Maybe??


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Well I find that "lecturing" is the fastest way to make enemies. Do you think people are stupid, in general and not capable of forming their own opinions on matters? 

The causes you feel passionate about, may not be the same that I feel passionate about..but I don't want to be lectured on politics. I'm an intelligent, educated person, capable of forming my own opinions.

I generally dislike people w ho insist I listen to their diatribe on subjects that I already have formed a viewpoint on.

Thank you but no, your rambling will have no effect on me at all.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Someone not practicing what they preach.

Got hateful pretty quick ... Bye, bye.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Geeze I'm sort of sick of being followed on everything I post and then being "beaten up"..which seems to be happening on a regular basis...by the messages I'm getting from people saying "what's her gripe with you, she posts after everything you say". It's getting old Galaxy. Get out of the sandbox or grow up.
Political viewpoints are a whole other matter. I don't need anyone telling me who to vote for as I'm capable of making an informed and educated choice.

I'll always come down on the side of "human rights". That's not political, it's the right thing to do.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

galaxycraft said:


> Someone not practicing what they preach.
> 
> Got hateful pretty quick ... Bye, bye.


I often access posts here that I think are silly, or too much out of my range of view, or for me overly religious. I read them and then leave the thread without commenting.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> I often access posts here that I think are silly, or too much out of my range of view, or for me overly religious. I read them and then leave the thread without commenting.


I thought I might have been interested with the opening post...is all.
Then it got to be between a couple of folks....carry on.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Since you mention me on a regular basis, particularly in the past couple of weeks (in addition to another KP member) and others have noticed it...I assume the sign you have posted is an admission of guilt.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Encourage others to protest? Why? I tend to believe t hat most people are capable of making their own decisions and forming their own opinions. MY concerns may not be those shared by my neighbors and theirs may not be ones that I share.
> 
> While our first amendment protects our freedom of speech...sometimes it's wiser to keep your mouth shut.


Why are you so angry? No one has tried to influence your beliefs or tried to force anything on you. Why would you tell someone else to keep their mouth shut. It doesn't seem that you really support everyone's freedom of speech. How does what peacegoddess say harm or threaten you in any way? Your anger is truly frightening. What on earth are you so afraid of?
Your actions are really over the top not to mention rude. Why did you feel the need to even respond on this thread when you could have just read it and moved along?


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Lolly12 said:


> I DID NOT OPEN THIS THREAD YOU DID?hOW OLD ARE YOU?I am not an American,I don't give a S..t about politics.I have been on this earth long enough to know who the people are that need to be in the spotlight.Tell me what motivates you to childish behavior.Go away


What is wrong with you? Nobody is trying to force you to do anything. You are really OTT. Why do you point out you are not American? What difference does it make? You are the one that is stealing the show by your outrageous behavior when all you had to do was move on to another thread. Do tell why you felt compelled to reply? Your reaction doesn't make any sense at all and you are the one who is carrying on like a child. Are you a self appointed woman out here policing KP threads to make sure people adhere to you own personal and bizarre idea of what is appropriate? Telling someone to go away? Really? I hope I don't bump into you again. You are a real Debbie Downer.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Well I find that "lecturing" is the fastest way to make enemies. Do you think people are stupid, in general and not capable of forming their own opinions on matters?
> 
> The causes you feel passionate about, may not be the same that I feel passionate about..but I don't want to be lectured on politics. I'm an intelligent, educated person, capable of forming my own opinions.
> 
> ...


Maybe peacegoddess could post in Chit chat but you ladies certainly reacted in a very cold and accusatory manner which was totally out of line. I feel sorry for you as happy well adjusted people don't lash out at others in such a fashion. It would be nice to maybe take a look in the mirror and ask yourselves where all the anger is coming from. Certainly not at all welcoming for any new person who may see your rude outrageous attack. If I were new to this place and didn't know that most people out here are quite normal and friendly I would exit KP and never comeback. Check your motives and acts ladies and learn how to behave like ladies.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> I often access posts here that I think are silly, or too much out of my range of view, or for me overly religious. I read them and then leave the thread without commenting.


That's what "normal" people would do but a couple of these people seem to have another agenda and it isn't nice or ladylike. Why so hostile ladies. If you didn't like what you saw why did you stick around? Doesn't make sense at all.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> That's what "normal" people would do but a couple of these people seem to have another agenda and it isn't nice or ladylike. Why so hostile ladies. If you didn't like what you saw why did you stick around? Doesn't make sense at all.


it is general chit chat what do they want... no involvement at all?


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## miatalover66 (Jun 14, 2013)

I would hate to start a thread, innocently posing a question, and be bombarded with hateful comments. I really don't understand this backlash I have been seeing on other posts as well. It is ok to disagree but if you don't like it then find something else to read, don't ruin it for the rest of us.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Well you know you cannot please all the people all the time....not that I want too!


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## kiwiannie (Jul 30, 2011)

I'm like cakes and stay well away from the limelight. :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## minniemo (Apr 23, 2011)

Forgive me if I am wrong but is there not a particular part of the forum that is specifically for Political Discussion and that is not on Chit Chat


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

minniemo said:


> Forgive me if I am wrong but is there not a particular part of the forum that is specifically for Political Discussion and that is not on Chit Chat


Not that i have found. Administration is very good about relocating subjusts to the proper heading if necessary.


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

A flurry of rhetoric looking for substance, it seems. Cart before the horse, maybe?


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## minniemo (Apr 23, 2011)

minniemo wrote:
Forgive me if I am wrong but is there not a particular part of the forum that is specifically for Political Discussion and that is not on Chit Chat

peacegoddess wrote
Not that i have found. Administration is very good about relocating subjusts to the proper heading if necessary.


minniemo wrote
I have just looked and there is a Political Discussion Group listed. It is

called The Progressive Women's Forum


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## Lostie (May 2, 2013)

I once considered marching to the town hall and chaining myself to the railings until they told me why gooseberries wouldn't grow in my garden ... does that count?


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## Glenlady (Mar 25, 2013)

big deal !


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## Glenlady (Mar 25, 2013)

Lostie said:


> I once considered marching to the town hall and chaining myself to the railings until they told me why gooseberries wouldn't grow in my garden ... does that count?


well, I marched with my mates to the townhall and protested in a lady like manner....


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## ohsusana (Jun 24, 2012)

Glenlady said:


> well, I marched with my mates to the townhall and protested in a lady like manner....


In the 60's, I wanted to march in the "make love, NOT war" but my mother wouldn't let me. :lol:


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## Lostie (May 2, 2013)

Glenlady said:


> well, I marched with my mates to the townhall and protested in a lady like manner....


was that about women getting the vote?


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> What is the most outrageous political statement or action you have ever done?
> 
> I have done quite a few and also my adult daughter has done a few crazy things.
> 
> I sent thrift store linens to President and Nancy Reagan and had the local news in my home to do a story on it.


In 1988 I joined the protest group on the Hobart wharf, protesting about the US nuclear armed war ship about to dock there. They moved the vessel away from the wharf and ferried the sailors ashore in their small boats. The protest was not against the sailors but against the presence of a nuclear armed warship in our city. The protest was organised by the Quakers.

Now I am going into hiding as I know I shall be shot down in flames by certain posters here. They will tell me I have no right to express my opinions here because I am not an American but an alien, et et etc.

Unfortunately I was not in Sydney in the mid 1960's when protestors threw red paint over LBJ's car to protest against the Vietnam war. If I had been there I would have been in that protest too.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Lolly12 said:


> I DID NOT OPEN THIS THREAD YOU DID?hOW OLD ARE YOU?I am not an American,I don't give a S..t about politics.I have been on this earth long enough to know who the people are that need to be in the spotlight.Tell me what motivates you to childish behavior.Go away


your statements are only proving your need to be in the spotlight and that you are demonstrating childish behaviour. If you do not like the topic, do not read it. Do not watch it. Do not post a reply. It is that simple. You can go away before you tell others to go way. I think you only posted your comments to get people's backs up. How old are you, or are you senile?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> In 1988 I joined the protest group on the Hobart wharf, protesting about the US nuclear armed war ship about to dock there. They moved the vessel away from the wharf and ferried the sailors ashore in their small boats. The protest was not against the sailors but against the presence of a nuclear armed warship in our city. The protest was organised by the Quakers.
> 
> Now I am going into hiding as I know I shall be shot down in flames by certain posters here. They will tell me I have no right to express my opinions here because I am not an American but an alien, et et etc.
> 
> Unfortunately I was not in Sydney in the mid 1960's when protestors threw red paint over LBJ's car to protest against the Vietnam war. If I had been there I would have been in that protest too.


Don't hide many of us yanks like to hear from you. Where would we all be without the people who went out in public and demonstrated for a cause?


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

courier770 said:


> Well I find that "lecturing" is the fastest way to make enemies. Do you think people are stupid, in general and not capable of forming their own opinions on matters?
> 
> The causes you feel passionate about, may not be the same that I feel passionate about..but I don't want to be lectured on politics. I'm an intelligent, educated person, capable of forming my own opinions.
> 
> ...


Please we are all entitled to express our point of view. this means everyone, not just people who agree with you.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

minniemo said:


> minniemo wrote:
> Forgive me if I am wrong but is there not a particular part of the forum that is specifically for Political Discussion and that is not on Chit Chat
> 
> peacegoddess wrote
> ...


Thank you.


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## inishowen (May 28, 2011)

It seems that if certain people don't like what they read, they tell the poster they shouldn't have opened the thread in the first place!


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## Chezl (Mar 12, 2012)

All I have done is sign petitions. The latest one was to stop McDonalds from opening up a new store opposite a kindergarten in the hills of Melbourne.


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## Glenlady (Mar 25, 2013)

Lostie said:


> was that about women getting the vote?


oo I arent thatt old, no, we marched cos we wanted to be noticed !!!!
 :thumbup:


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## calicar (Jul 29, 2011)

miatalover66 said:


> I would hate to start a thread, innocently posing a question, and be bombarded with hateful comments. I really don't understand this backlash I have been seeing on other posts as well. It is ok to disagree but if you don't like it then find something else to read, don't ruin it for the rest of us.


My thoughts exactly.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Chezl said:


> All I have done is sign petitions. The latest one was to stop McDonalds from opening up a new store opposite a kindergarten in the hills of Melbourne.


Hooray for you! Petitions are very effective.


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## silvercharms (Mar 29, 2011)

The background to this is longish: here in Northern Ireland, though we are a part of the UK, the main parties did not organise and stand for election here. Their decision, not ours! 

After a long campaign about proper representation, the Conservatives had their arms twisted enough to admit us and the first ever Conservative party meeting for our region was held in our house.

After a while, there was a difficulty about getting local candidates to stand for council elections - suitable people were employed in government work, which debarred them from standing. And they asked ME - totally shy and retiring me!!! to stand, just to give a Conservative presence.

And I did, and I got 400 votes! 

May I also say it was the lowest poll at the time, I cum last.....hahahaha!


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## Hipoldfarmgirl (Jun 6, 2013)

Right now I feel like the most outrageous thing I have done was to campaign and vote for Barack Obama. why does he think we need to meddle in Syria? But I read in the night that there was a meeting back Aug 14-15 where it was agreed an event would be caused which would lead us into the next war, a potential WW III. I am just sick over this. I heard on radio in night that 100,000 people in Rome prayed for peace in Syria. Every Pres. is just a puppet of the military when they get brainwashed in Wash. D.C. That is how it feels.


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## Anna3703 (Mar 4, 2012)

Oh please, stop it !!! This ia s KNITTERS' FORUM, not a political forum. Do you talk "knitting" at your political rallies??


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

This is a knitters forum, but this is non-knitting area. Pretty much anything goes here - and does! Knitters get to have opinions, too.

To answer the actual question, I am old enough to have done some protesting in the 60's, but mostly have spent my life trying to do things on a personal level which would model what I hoped people would see as action that walked my talk. I have, just in the last few days, begun to help organize a group from our church to join a march in Springfield (Illinois)which is in support of Freedom to Marry. This will come up in the legislative session this fall, and we are trying to get as many people as possible to let legislatures know it is time for Illinois to stop denying equal rights to all our citizens.


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## Chezl (Mar 12, 2012)

Anna3703 said:


> Oh please, stop it !!! This ia s KNITTERS' FORUM, not a political forum. Do you talk "knitting" at your political rallies??


This is General Chit Chat (Non-Knitting Talk) so yes, political discussions are allowed.


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## nitnana (Feb 3, 2013)

Glad to hear there are some Union people here. I attended The March on Washington (not MLK's) but the Labor one in ----! Can't remember when it was - late 1980s perhaps. Ronald Reagan was in the White House. Stirring to see that many (100s of 1,000s) of people marching for a common cause (jobs - pay - the right to organize - equality!) Have marched in many picket lines.


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## laceandbits (Jun 23, 2011)

Although I am not at all political, and have not the slightest wish to inflame, I would remind you that many of us on KP are not American and your reasons for sending thrift store linen to the Reagans is absolutely beyond me. Apart from anything else, it's a long time ago now and the subtleties of American domestic policy in the 1980s have escaped me. Someone else already asked why so please do explain.

I doubt if it ever got to them anyway, I'm sure the president and his wife don't open their own post, so you probably wasted your time and money. 

Have you done anything equally outrageous more recently?


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## SharonM (Nov 25, 2011)

I'm not sure how sending thrift store linens.. and having the local press notified... sends ANY kind of political statement at all! What was the point? Who did it help?
Seems to me there are more pressing causes to support than old sheets!
Fight about health care reform - that the president and his cronies aren't required to have, but we are - and that will put hundreds of small companies out of business. In fact, I just read that HobbyLobby may close due to this health care requirement.
Fight about abortion - pro or con.
Fight about the ridiculous idea that we should attack Syria.
But sheets??? Seriously?????


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## Araciel (Apr 2, 2011)

I think peacegoddess should remember that a peacegoddess brings peace to those in need, not to create or disturb communities such as KP.


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## SouthernGirl (Dec 28, 2011)

I, too, keep a low profile in politics and religion.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

SharonM said:


> I'm not sure how sending thrift store linens.. and having the local press notified... sends ANY kind of political statement at all! What was the point? Who did it help?
> Seems to me there are more pressing causes to support than old sheets!
> Fight about health care reform - that the president and his cronies aren't required to have, but we are - and that will put hundreds of small companies out of business. In fact, I just read that HobbyLobby may close due to this health care requirement.
> Fight about abortion - pro or con.
> ...


Hobby Lobby may close due to its refusal to provide contraception and abortion benefits to their employees, a requirement of the healthcare law, all of which was approved by the Congress and upheld by the Supreme Court. It has threatened, but I'll bet they don't close.


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## SharonM (Nov 25, 2011)

pardoquilts said:



> Hobby Lobby may close due to its refusal to provide contraception and abortion benefits to their employees, a requirement of the healthcare law, all of which was approved by the Congress and upheld by the Supreme Court. It has threatened, but I'll bet they don't close.


This is true.... but closed is still closed. And the reason is the healthcare law and it's requirement (some of which they do not uphold).
And of course it was approved by Congress and upheld by the Supreme Court... THEY aren't going to be participants in the plan so they have nothing to lose. 
The rest of us? That remains to be seen.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Anna3703 said:


> Oh please, stop it !!! This ia s KNITTERS' FORUM, not a political forum. Do you talk "knitting" at your political rallies??


Well, yes, we do. We exchange recipes, garden hunts, knitting patterns and where to get cheap fuel. We do not just sit and talk politics all night.

i am a member of a political party.


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## ginnyinnr (May 20, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> Why do you presume to know my motivation? Should I ask "What ways do you bury your head in the sand?" on important political issues. Why did you open the thread? Anything that is is norm is generally not going to create thought provoking discussion.


Lets just say "happy birthday Peach Goddess, you just had one, and leave it at that!


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## Glenlady (Mar 25, 2013)

ginnyinnr said:


> Lets just say "happy birthday Peach Goddess, you just had one, and leave it at that!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

First of all I'm not angry, sorry if my reply came off that way. I've never believed that public protest brings about change. Generally, "silent action" works better. Not voting for a candidate who has a platform that goes against your views, or who has a history of bad acts, not purchasing goods from companies you find objectionable, supporting efforts to bring about change, etc..


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## JulieDarie (Feb 28, 2013)

Let's just keep it nice ladies. This is our place for peace and tranquility .I need that , no place here for politics. That's a completely different forum.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

laceandbits said:


> Although I am not at all political, and have not the slightest wish to inflame, I would remind you that many of us on KP are not American and your reasons for sending thrift store linen to the Reagans is absolutely beyond me. Apart from anything else, it's a long time ago now and the subtleties of American domestic policy in the 1980s have escaped me. Someone else already asked why so please do explain.
> 
> I doubt if it ever got to them anyway, I'm sure the president and his wife don't open their own post, so you probably wasted your time and money.
> 
> Have you done anything equally outrageous more recently?


It was table linens, to be exact, a lovely hand tatted lace tablecloth.

Reason? Soon after the Reagan's entered the White House, Nancy publiclly stated how the White House table linens and china were in terrible condition and she was planning on buying all new stuff. At the same time Pres. Reagan was cutting financial aid to students, food stamps, and other social servics. He had gone from doing the same things in California as Governor and the state's mentally ill and many other folks had suffered huge losses in education etc.

It was a symbolic gesture that had meaning for my political group and may have raised consciousness for people who viewed the news story.

I continue to be active at Peace rallies, advocating for low income people, and the environment.

Thanks for asking. If you want peace, work for justice.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Peoline said:


> I think peacegoddess should remember that a peacegoddess brings peace to those in need, not to create or disturb communities such as KP.


If you want peace, work for justice. I do.


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## JCF (Aug 3, 2012)

There is a statement (don't know who said it) that while I may not agree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

JCF said:


> There is a statement (don't know who said it) that while I may not agree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it.


Voltaire


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## caat (Mar 6, 2012)

I've read through this whole discussion because I find politics interesting, and because what happens in Congress does have a direct effect on all of us in America, and often around the world. Political discussions can be interesting and thought-provoking. This one is neither.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Do you think that one person's signing a petition, attending a rally, or doing a symbolic act is without influence on politics or other people? 

Women got the vote through agitation, unions gained us the weekend, and the civil rights marches helped bring about voting reform. Each of these movements began with individual people making a decision to do something and they came together as a group.


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## stirfry (Nov 3, 2011)

JulieDarie said:


> Let's just keep it nice ladies. This is our place for peace and tranquility .I need that , no place here for politics. That's a completely different forum.


I agree and I usually don't read these threads. I am not sure why I read this one.


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## sylviaelliott (May 11, 2011)

aw - come on ladies and gents - let's keep politics and religion out of this site.


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## knitnanny (Feb 28, 2012)

I have to admire you for standing up for what you believe in and doing something about it. Too many people talk about what is wrong in our world but not many people take action. I really like Margaret Meade's quote;

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.

Margaret Mead

You go girl!


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Please we are all entitled to express our point of view. this means everyone, not just people who agree with you.


THIS ALSO MEANS YOU CAN STOP BERATING THOSE WHO HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION THAN YOURS!!!!!!!!! THEY ALSO HAVE A RIGHT TO SAY WHAT THEY WANT. YES, I KNOW THAT THIS IS ALL IN CAPITAL LETTERS AS I AM MAKING A VERY STRONG STATEMENT. I AM NOT YELLING, BUT I AM EMPHASISING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH THAT IS ALLOWED TO EVERYONE.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

sylviaelliott said:


> aw - come on ladies and gents - let's keep politics and religion out of this site.


You know, there used to be a time when the religion and politics were kept out of this site. Administration was changed and now everything but pornography is allowed here at the Knitting Paradise. Perhaps this needs to be brought up to Administration. The religion and politics does sew discord and promote hatred between people. A knitting and crochet site is not the place for this to happen.


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## Kathie (Mar 29, 2011)

I'm not sure it would be considered outrageous but a few years ago I was part of a committee that formed to force a recall election of our town chairman. We are a rural community that is quickly becoming urban. Our town chairman wanted to force all the people in our town to run a town water supply instead of using out existing wells. His reasoning was a development being planned by a friend of his was in need of a water supply and he wanted all of us to help pay for their water supply. We had the state water experts on our side stating that the rest of us weren't in need of this water system. We did manage to throw this man out of office and still use our wells. Sometimes we just have to take the initiative that it takes to stand up against what we consider unfair or just plain wrong. I think that is why protest help bring ideas to the forefront and help keep the establishment from walking all over the population.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

5mmdpns said:


> THIS ALSO MEANS YOU CAN STOP BERATING THOSE WHO HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION THAN YOURS!!!!!!!!! THEY ALSO HAVE A RIGHT TO SAY WHAT THEY WANT. YES, I KNOW THAT THIS IS ALL IN CAPITAL LETTERS AS I AM MAKING A VERY STRONG STATEMENT. I AM NOT YELLING, BUT I AM EMPHASISING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH THAT IS ALLOWED TO EVERYONE.


My point exactly, that is what I believed I said, but I am sorry I did not realise I was berating people who have a different opinion. I am new to this site but your reply is too much. I think you are berating me, especially as you typed all in capitals. But, if you think I am berating you because I expressed a different opinion to you I do not think that this is anice place to be. Would you be happier if I did not express my views whereas you have the right to express your views?????

So, I apologise to all the posters I have berated as this was not my intention.

I thought we could express our opinions freely

maybe this is not the place for me.


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## Leslie_S (Aug 31, 2013)

The only thing I can come up with is when my mother and I sent tons of telegrams to Mayor of Chicago during the 1968 democratic convention!! LOL Mom was something of an activist. I am a news and political junkie while knitting or crocheting but I think that (Knitting) is what helps keep me on the moderate couch these days! There is so much going on in the world right now that I have had to start some really simple knitting projects!!


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> My point exactly, that is what I believed I said, but I am sorry I did not realise I was berating people who have a different opinion. I am new to this site but your reply is too much. I think you are berating me, especially as you typed all in capitals. But, if you think I am berating you because I expressed a different opinion to you I do not think that this is anice place to be. Would you be happier if I did not express my views whereas you have the right to express your views?????
> 
> So, I apologise to all the posters I have berated as this was not my intention.
> 
> ...


We all feel strongly about issues. Some feel we should not talk about certain subjects, others that almost anything is open for discussion. The end result is we should feel ok to express ourselves. I take responsibility for how I feel when someone says something I do not agree with...I am the one who controls my feelings. We need to be who we are and be proud.


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## oceanplace (Dec 11, 2012)

cakes said:


> way I was reared. "sit over there, read your book and i dont want to hear a word from you all afternoon". at just on 80 I see no reason to do otherwise.


I love it! So at 82 I should be able to sit all day and read and not be bothered either? ha ha, like that is going to happen.

oceanplace


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## Friederike (Aug 26, 2011)

cakes said:


> way I was reared. "sit over there, read your book and I don't want to hear a word from you all afternoon". at just on 80 I see no reason to do otherwise.


I so identify with this, cakes. I was raised with "children should not be heard", "never speak unless you are spoken to", "don't accept anything from a hostess unless offered 3 times (like a cookie)" because you don't want to appear greedy or hungry etc. I still have a difficult time speaking up in a group of people. Actually, I hate feeling this way and so does my sister and we are both "up there" in age :roll:


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## clickerMLL (Aug 14, 2013)

I occasionally use myself as an example of why the voting age is too low. The very FIRST vote I cast when I became age 21 was for Richard Nixon -- for his second term, after the Watergate matter was becoming big news and pointing directly at him. So much for youthful indiscretion . . .


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## laceandbits (Jun 23, 2011)

To EveM, "maybe this is not the place for me"

Maybe just not this very small part of KP where these general views are stated and heated political and religious opinions are chewed over. After all, like myself you almost certainly didn't start off here for any other reason than to find out about knitting and crochet, and you probably just wandered through an open door as I did to find yourself embroiled in much spleen. 

I was tempted in by the outrageous theme, and only stayed this long as it took the OP all this time to stop arguing back at other political comments and take the time to explain her original remark. Now she has explained I don't see anything *outrageous* in her actions at all, and I'm off back to the sane and delighfully friendly knitting pages. 

The other two forums I read (not knitting ones) both have a ban on religion and politics and I understand KP used to. Seems like a good idea to me that it might be reinstated. If people want controversy, there are many places where they can have deep and meaningful discussion with like minded people. On a forum like KP it is rare enough that you are taken unawares, but I doubt if the discussion that results is beneficial to anyone. A lot of unintended offense has been both given and taken in these 6 pages.


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## JCF (Aug 3, 2012)

Friederike said:


> I so identify with this, cakes. I was raised with "children should not be heard", "never speak unless you are spoken to", "don't accept anything from a hostess unless offered 3 times (like a cookie)" because you don't want to appear greedy or hungry etc. I still have a difficult time speaking up in a group of people. Actually, I hate feeling this way and so does my sister and we are both "up there" in age :roll:


Friederike, I know how you feel. I too got the same "sermon" when growing up and now have low self-esteem that what I have to say is not worth hearing. Sigh.


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## Leslie_S (Aug 31, 2013)

clickerMLL said:


> I occasionally use myself as an example of why the voting age is too low. The very FIRST vote I cast when I became age 21 was for Richard Nixon -- for his second term, after the Watergate matter was becoming big news and pointing directly at him. So much for youthful indiscretion . . .


We must be the same age as Nixon was the first President I voted for after I turned 21.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Dear Admin:
Maybe it is time to start a "Grumpy" Section. 
There is a Progressive Women's Section that I signed up for but it does not seem to be managed. It never appears in the forum.
All the original poster asked was if anyone ever got involved in a political action. Seems pretty innocuous to me.


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## inishowen (May 28, 2011)

SharonM said:


> I'm not sure how sending thrift store linens.. and having the local press notified... sends ANY kind of political statement at all! What was the point? Who did it help?
> Seems to me there are more pressing causes to support than old sheets!
> Fight about health care reform - that the president and his cronies aren't required to have, but we are - and that will put hundreds of small companies out of business. In fact, I just read that HobbyLobby may close due to this health care requirement.
> Fight about abortion - pro or con.
> ...


I thought she meant she had sent used underwear to them, perhaps as an insult?


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## Abi_marsden (Aug 5, 2012)

Stand up and be counted ,make enough noise to be heard.life isn't one peaceful past time it's pain and anger as well.these last 7 pages just proves to me that if you don't agree with certain people your not worth talking to.i feel like its a school playground.no one needs to shut up or grow up if this is what they feel,why shouldn't they say it.?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

inishowen said:


> I thought she meant she had sent used underwear to them, perhaps as an insult?


The differences in usage of the English language are interesting.


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## inishowen (May 28, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> The differences in usage of the English language are interesting.


Why did you send them thrift shop linens?


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## cheryl ridgway (Jan 31, 2013)

courier770 said:


> First of all I'm not angry, sorry if my reply came off that way. I've never believed that public protest brings about change. Generally, "silent action" works better. Not voting for a candidate who has a platform that goes against your views, or who has a history of bad acts, not purchasing goods from companies you find objectionable, supporting efforts to bring about change, etc..


Well, the civil rights movement was all about "public protest". Would you say that they did not bring about change?


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## Shirley Pelletier (Aug 3, 2012)

Whooie! So after all this "discussion" (quotes are for irony here), what has been accomplished? Of course people should feel free to express opinions, but get snarky to one another? Maybe not.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

inishowen said:


> Why did you send them thrift shop linens?


You may have missed the answer on page 5 so here I copied for you.

It was table linens, to be exact, a lovely hand tatted lace tablecloth.

Reason? Soon after the Reagan's entered the White House, Nancy publiclly stated how the White House table linens and china were in terrible condition and she was planning on buying all new stuff. At the same time Pres. Reagan was cutting financial aid to students, food stamps, and other social servics. He had gone from doing the same things in California as Governor and the state's mentally ill and many other folks had suffered huge losses in education etc.

It was a symbolic gesture that had meaning for my political group and may have raised consciousness for people who viewed the news story.

I continue to be active at Peace rallies, advocating for low income people, and the environment.

Thanks for asking. If you want peace, work for justice.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

I've never been much of a political activist, but during the Clinton impeachment circus I did write to every single member of Congress. Somehow when we're "het" up over an issue any thoughts that "It won't do any good, anyway," seem to fly out the window!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> You may have missed the answer on page 5 so here I copied for you.
> 
> It was table linens, to be exact, a lovely hand tatted lace tablecloth.


Too good to waste on such folks! I would have sent them a vinyl plastic number from Wal-Mart!


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## grammyv (Feb 11, 2011)

Keep your head low and wear beige!


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## inishowen (May 28, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> You may have missed the answer on page 5 so here I copied for you.
> 
> It was table linens, to be exact, a lovely hand tatted lace tablecloth.
> 
> ...


Now I get it. It makes sense.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I've never been much of a political activist, but during the Clinton impeachment circus I did write to every single member of Congress. Somehow when we're "het" up over an issue any thoughts that "It won't do any good, anyway," seem to fly out the window!


It does good because it frees our hearts and puts the vibe into the greather world.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Too good to waste on such folks! I would have sent them a vinyl plastic number from Wal-Mart!


It was returned with a note from the social secretary saying something to the effect of it won't fit.


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## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)

Politics aren't supposed to be discussed on this website. PM's are different.


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## anotherknitter (Sep 8, 2013)

Ugh. So sorry I clicked on, and read through, this entire thread. So pointless and angry. 

Original poster opens a hot topic (anything political is a hot topic), then she and anyone who agrees with her get offended when people get worked up. They then post about free speech in an ironic attempt to get anyone who disagrees to stay silent. 

KP is normally so friendly, helpful, and informative. Lesson learned: don't click on political threads.


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## Munchn (Mar 3, 2013)

Well - my dad said that two topics to avoid having a conversation in are : politics and religion. It has worked for me. I try to do more listening if the topics come up.


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

grammyv said:


> Keep your head low and wear beige!


Hooray grammy, LOL. Best post of the day.


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## susannahp (Nov 7, 2011)

cakes said:


> way I was reared. "sit over there, read your book and i dont want to hear a word from you all afternoon". at just on 80 I see no reason to do otherwise.


Sure keeps you out of trouble doesn't it , good way to be


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

anotherknitter said:


> Ugh. So sorry I clicked on, and read through, this entire thread. So pointless and angry.
> 
> Original poster opens a hot topic (anything political is a hot topic), then she and anyone who agrees with her get offended when people get worked up. They then post about free speech in an ironic attempt to get anyone who disagrees to stay silent.
> 
> KP is normally so friendly, helpful, and informative. Lesson learned: don't click on political threads.


If you read through my posts again you may notice I am not angry. If people do not like the topic once they see it then it is a simple matter to click to another thread. I cannot take responsibility for others' anger.


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## kittykatzmom (Mar 1, 2011)




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## khmullins (Apr 11, 2011)

I find that the best way for me to express my political standing is through email and phone calls to elected officials. I don't pull any punches and have seen votes change when the volume is sufficient to reach that person. 
If you watch the news you are aware that the pure volume of responses have changed the votes in congress about the war the President seems intent on starting. Hope that will also change his mind. 
There are channels that can get things done without picketing or demonstrations. Too often that leads to violence and sometimes even death.


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## Daisybel (Nov 27, 2012)

Lostie said:


> I once considered marching to the town hall and chaining myself to the railings until they told me why gooseberries wouldn't grow in my garden ... does that count?


 :thumbup:


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## Katsch (Mar 15, 2011)

caat said:


> I've read through this whole discussion because I find politics interesting, and because what happens in Congress does have a direct effect on all of us in America, and often around the world. Political discussions can be interesting and thought-provoking. This one is neither.


Well spoken :thumbup:


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## Leslie_S (Aug 31, 2013)

I shall be vigilant in keeping an eye on happenings pertaining to Syria as it could effect my ability to log on to Knitting Paradise (someone could hack and bring down the internet) as I knit an afghan. ;-)


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## KnitPicker (Jan 19, 2011)

I became involved with certain programs through our Senior Center, then I gave of my time voluntarily to different organizations to find out what was needed. I got a membership in our local political group and did work for them. Some people who followed this trail also went to work for a candidate, and later worked in their offices and on committees. I didn't, I went straight for the City Council.

As a citizen of our community, I am continually working on issues that need change for the good of our community and nation. It's surprising how easy it is to talk with your State Representative and a member of Congress. I used to be overwhelmed until I found out many started just the way I did.

There are so many ways to change the nation's outlook, as well as the State, County, and City's perception on things that need tending. If anyone truly wants to make a difference in their lives and the lives of others for good, get involved.

Did you notice, I didn't mention any political party or stand? This is a discussion, not an argument to see who's right. Caustic remarks are uncalled for on KP, no matter the reason. Speak gently and many will agree with you. Be nasty, and everyone will turn on you. Just remember, if you don't want to be a part of the discussion, *don't get involved*. Ignore instead. A healthy discussion helps everyone, an argument hurts only the one who allows himself to argue.


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## skkp (Feb 13, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> It was table linens, to be exact, a lovely hand tatted lace tablecloth.
> 
> Reason? Soon after the Reagan's entered the White House, Nancy publiclly stated how the White House table linens and china were in terrible condition and she was planning on buying all new stuff. At the same time Pres. Reagan was cutting financial aid to students, food stamps, and other social servics. He had gone from doing the same things in California as Governor and the state's mentally ill and many other folks had suffered huge losses in education etc.
> 
> ...


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## KnitPicker (Jan 19, 2011)

kittykatzmom said:


> Politics aren't supposed to be discussed on this website. PM's are different.


Sorry - incorrect. We can discuss anything on the chat line. as long as we are grownups, and if so, we won't argue (as long as it doesn't incite threats, or is morally deeply offensive - which neither politics nor religion are either). I am grateful for discussions about politics. I am interested in the world and want to learn more. I enjoy people and their varied interests. Their differences from mine don't bother me. I welcome them - not for a debate, but for a learning experience. However, those subjects that I don't want to be a part of, I just don't open.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

khmullins said:


> I find that the best way for me to express my political standing is through email and phone calls to elected officials. I don't pull any punches and have seen votes change when the volume is sufficient to reach that person.
> If you watch the news you are aware that the pure volume of responses have changed the votes in congress about the war the President seems intent on starting. Hope that will also change his mind.
> There are channels that can get things done without picketing or demonstrations. Too often that leads to violence and sometimes even death.


There are many roads to political change and letters, E-mails etc are crucial as the pen is mightier than the sword.

However, it is difficult for me to discount the effectiveness of demonstrations and public acts of civil disobedience. Each person must find their comfort zone and go with it.

Suffragettes worked tirelessly through the traditional channels to gain votes for women, but it was not until Alice Paul organized public demonstrations that politicians began to take the issue seriously. Yes there was violence, but it was not begun by Paul's demonstrators, but men observing the demonstration and the police force. this is just one example of how rallies and demonstrations were effective.


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

Knitpicker nailed it, I think. She speaks of 'participating' in the discussions. What I mostly see when the issues heat up, is people trying to shut down opposing views. That will never go anywhere but for a lot of irritating noise.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

KnitPicker said:


> I became involved with certain programs through our Senior Center, then I gave of my time voluntarily to different organizations to find out what was needed. I got a membership in our local political group and did work for them. Some people who followed this trail also went to work for a candidate, and later worked in their offices and on committees. I didn't, I went straight for the City Council.
> 
> As a citizen of our community, I am continually working on issues that need change for the good of our community and nation. It's surprising how easy it is to talk with your State Representative and a member of Congress. I used to be overwhelmed until I found out many started just the way I did.
> 
> ...


Most legislators want to hear from their constituents and private citizens who attend conferce hearings where there is time for public input are welcome and listened to with respect (for the most part) In the past I often testified at the California State Legislature on issues affecting women and children. It is an education and a rewarding experience.


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## mirium (May 14, 2013)

The most outrageous thing I ever joined in was in response to a local restaurant owner who said in an interview that the law forced him to serve black people but it couldn't control the quality of their meal or service. We didn't want a confrontation but couldn't do nothing. So, with grins from those of us who were black, those of us who were white made reservations in groups of 2 or 4, all for the same evening -- and showed up in blackface makeup. It was an interesting dining experience! 

I also participated in the traditional Annual Tuition Riot at my college, which takes place at noon the day after the tuition increase is announced. Students march down the long hallway of the main building chanting "(however many) Dollars, Too D**n Much!", then stage a 15-minute sit-in on the busy street in front of the building, then everyone stands up and goes to lunch. The local police stop traffic for the sit-in and the students are very scrupulous about the 15-minute limit, so the cops enjoy telling frustrated drivers that the protest will break up in exactly X minutes, Y seconds -- and it does.


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

Hmm..just think how much more attention would be drawn if through all this the participants kept knitting!


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## KnitPicker (Jan 19, 2011)

mirium said:


> The most outrageous thing I ever joined in was in response to a local restaurant owner who said in an interview that the law forced him to serve black people but it couldn't control the quality of their meal or service. We didn't want a confrontation but couldn't do nothing. So, with grins from those of us who were black, those of us who were white made reservations in groups of 2 or 4, all for the same evening -- and showed up in blackface makeup. It was an interesting dining experience!


What a hoot! Wished I'd been there to see that! I laughed so hard when I read this. Now, that's ACTIVISM. ROFL


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## BrendaGaines (Feb 26, 2013)

I always try to keep up on issues and write to my President, Representatives, Senators, the Editorial section of the newspaper and others. In a Democracy the people are supposed to take part in their government. I sign petitions and I take to the street with a sign when the issue is important enough, like Monsanto poisoning our food supply, or bombing Syria and starting WWIII.
Without activism we would be a lot worse off. Monday is action day for stopping the next World War. Flood your government with calls and emails.


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## cloud9 (Nov 18, 2012)

Leslie_S said:


> I shall be vigilant in keeping an eye on happenings pertaining to Syria as it could effect my ability to log on to Knitting Paradise (someone could hack and bring down the internet) as I knit an afghan. ;-)


[email protected] Leslie. I wanted to join Afgan squares so I typed in Google "join Afgans". Google very seriously told me where to contact the Taliban.


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## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Curious why it is a Progressive "Women's" Section. Are men not progressive?


SQM said:


> Dear Admin:
> Maybe it is time to start a "Grumpy" Section.
> There is a Progressive Women's Section that I signed up for but it does not seem to be managed. It never appears in the forum.
> All the original poster asked was if anyone ever got involved in a political action. Seems pretty innocuous to me.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> I often access posts here that I think are silly, or too much out of my range of view, or for me overly religious. I read them and then leave the thread without commenting.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Nina Weddle Tullis (Feb 13, 2011)

I have considered this Forum to be like eating a piece of chicken. I don't throw out the whole piece of chicken just because it has a bone. Eat the meat and throw the bone away. When someone says something you do not agree with take what you like and throw the rest away. I dislike unpleasant things and avoid them at all costs. I do enjoy this Forum but do not enjoy the continual controversy over every thing that is said so I guess I would consider it the bone of the chicken. 
9a


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Maybe peacegoddess could post in Chit chat but you ladies certainly reacted in a very cold and accusatory manner which was totally out of line. I feel sorry for you as happy well adjusted people don't lash out at others in such a fashion. It would be nice to maybe take a look in the mirror and ask yourselves where all the anger is coming from. Certainly not at all welcoming for any new person who may see your rude outrageous attack. If I were new to this place and didn't know that most people out here are quite normal and friendly I would exit KP and never comeback. Check your motives and acts ladies and learn how to behave like ladies.


Tsk, tsk. Aren't you the pot calling the kettle black. I take it you do not consider yourself a happy well adjusted person then? Many of your posts prove that you are not.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

courier770 said:


> First of all I'm not angry, sorry if my reply came off that way. I've never believed that public protest brings about change. Generally, "silent action" works better. Not voting for a candidate who has a platform that goes against your views, or who has a history of bad acts, not purchasing goods from companies you find objectionable, supporting efforts to bring about change, etc..


Sometimes protesting that platform or bad act brings it to other peoples attention. To many times that silent action does nothing. People go through their usual routine and vote their party without even thinking about what that vote does to themselves and others. Yes, many times people vote against their own self interest simply because of party and that is what they have always done. A person protesting may make them think before they do that.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

5mmdpns said:


> You know, there used to be a time when the religion and politics were kept out of this site. Administration was changed and now everything but pornography is allowed here at the Knitting Paradise. Perhaps this needs to be brought up to Administration. The religion and politics does sew discord and promote hatred between people. A knitting and crochet site is not the place for this to happen.


The only reason it "promotes hatred," as you say is because some people want to control what others do and say, and when that doesn't work, then they get mad. You do not have to read any of this. It is your choice, get mad or don't read it, but don't tell others what to do.


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

knovice knitter said:


> Curious why it is a Progressive "Women's" Section. Are men not progressive?


Or are women stagnant?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

"Encouraging Words" and "Happy Thoughts R Us" are also sections that seem to never appear. For those who do not like political chat, try to get the admins of those sections to activate. 

If ever I get into a manic phase, I might be able to post there.


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## grammyv (Feb 11, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> What is the most outrageous political statement or action you have ever done?
> 
> I have done quite a few and also my adult daughter has done a few crazy things.
> 
> I sent thrift store linens to President and Nancy Reagan and had the local news in my home to do a story on it.


The Reagans were often criticized for the $209,508 cost, but the china was not funded by taxpayers. It was paid for by the J.P. Knapp Foundation.

Seems as if you wasted your time and your money
:thumbdown:


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

khmullins said:


> I find that the best way for me to express my political standing is through email and phone calls to elected officials. I don't pull any punches and have seen votes change when the volume is sufficient to reach that person.
> If you watch the news you are aware that the pure volume of responses have changed the votes in congress about the war the President seems intent on starting. Hope that will also change his mind.
> There are channels that can get things done without picketing or demonstrations. Too often that leads to violence and sometimes even death.


I also send a lot of emails, especially to my senator Charles Grassley. I disagree with about everything he says and does, so that is why he hears from me often. I always hear back from him so I know at least he is reading what I have to say. With all this talk about Syria, I think might be the perfect time for people to call or email their congress people and voice your opinion.


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## Abi_marsden (Aug 5, 2012)

grammyv
Joined: Feb 11, 11
Messages: 510
Feedback: 0/0.0%
Location: WA the State
Online
Keep your head low and wear beige!
 
". . .and it wasn't yarn!" from "Things I learned about Knitting" by Stephanie Pearl-McPhee, p.90
 
 Reply   Quote Reply   Report Issue


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## Abi_marsden (Aug 5, 2012)

Sorry I posted the whole thing ,I nearly wet my knickers with laughing so much at this.im going to rember this and when ever people piss me off I'll quote this.


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

I grew up with the notion that war is foolish but true peace has to come from within us as individuals. Within a few days after 9/11 I was at a neighbor's house. This neighbor was a Christian woman married to a Muslim. Another neighbor was there who had a lot of family members in the military. And there was me: a Christian woman who is opposed to all war, married to a Jewish man who considers himself a Jewish peace activist. Years earlier I had heard that when Hitler had gone into Denmark and forced the Jews to wear yellow stars, that non-Jewish Danes had put on yellow stars, too. Inspired by this thought, I said that if there were any violence against any Muslim in our city on account of their religion I would go to the next public event wearing hijab. Within a few more days sure enough a group of teenage boys attacked a young Muslim woman who was wearing hijab. She was actually an Irish-American native of our area who had converted. They young boys had just seen the covered head and assumed that the woman must not be American, and in particular must be Arab, and apparently cast some insults to that effect, as well. Within a few more days there was another "peace rally" in front of City Hall. In my town these had all too quickly become rather militaristic so they were anything but peace rallies. That evening before going, I went to my neighbor's house, and she wrapped a Syrian scarf around my head. I could "pass" very easily. Her husband did quite the double take when he arrived home from work unaware of my plan and saw me. And we went together to the so-called peace rally and stood quietly in the back. If looks could kill I would have been in severe danger that evening. Some time before the event came to an end, the neighbor's husband drove us home as he said it would be dangerous for me to either stay there any longer or to walk even the few blocks home. I had mentioned my idea in passing to an editor of the local paper, who told me to write about it in a letter to the editor afterward, and I did.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

grammyv said:


> The Reagans were often criticized for the $209,508 cost, but the china was not funded by taxpayers. It was paid for by the J.P. Knapp Foundation.
> 
> Seems as if you wasted your time and your money
> :thumbdown:


Not wasted at all. I think she sent the message she intended to send.


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## SwampCatNana (Dec 27, 2012)

cakes said:


> I keep as low a profile as is possible.


In this political and social climate, I agree with you 110%!


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## msusanc (Apr 5, 2011)

Administrator, don't you think this thread should be removed?


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## margoc (Jul 4, 2011)

For those of you who are complaining about not getting specific sections of the forum, you need to go to your profile under SECTIONS. There is a link where you pick and choose which sections you want to see on a daily basis.


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## margoc (Jul 4, 2011)

For those of you who are complaining about not getting specific sections of the forum, you need to go to your profile under SECTIONS. There is a link where you pick and choose which sections you want to see on a daily basis.


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## cheryl ridgway (Jan 31, 2013)

Camacho said:


> I grew up with the notion that war is foolish but true peace has to come from within us as individuals. Within a few days after 9/11 I was at a neighbor's house. This neighbor was a Christian woman married to a Muslim. Another neighbor was there who had a lot of family members in the military. And there was me: a Christian woman who is opposed to all war, married to a Jewish man who considers himself a Jewish peace activist. Years earlier I had heard that when Hitler had gone into Denmark and forced the Jews to wear yellow stars, that non-Jewish Danes had put on yellow stars, too. Inspired by this thought, I said that if there were any violence against any Muslim in our city on account of their religion I would go to the next public event wearing hijab. Within a few more days sure enough a group of teenage boys attacked a young Muslim woman who was wearing hijab. She was actually an Irish-American native of our area who had converted. They young boys had just seen the covered head and assumed that the woman must not be American, and in particular must be Arab, and apparently cast some insults to that effect, as well. Within a few more days there was another "peace rally" in front of City Hall. In my town these had all too quickly become rather militaristic so they were anything but peace rallies. That evening before going, I went to my neighbor's house, and she wrapped a Syrian scarf around my head. I could "pass" very easily. Her husband did quite the double take when he arrived home from work unaware of my plan and saw me. And we went together to the so-called peace rally and stood quietly in the back. If looks could kill I would have been in severe danger that evening. Some time before the event came to an end, the neighbor's husband drove us home as he said it would be dangerous for me to either stay there any longer or to walk even the few blocks home. I had mentioned my idea in passing to an editor of the local paper, who told me to write about it in a letter to the editor afterward, and I did.


I like your story -- you are a good model for living out the christian message in your every day life. I always say that the message of Jesus is very simple but its not easy to follow. I, myself, have much to learn. (Especially in curbing my sometimes spiteful and mean-spirited tongue!)


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## Abi_marsden (Aug 5, 2012)

Why should something so interesting be moved or removed? Don't like it don't read it's not to differcult to work that out for yourself ,is it now? As for thinking you have to follow god to be be good is just completly crazy.so are we now saying if you don't follow god your not a good person.? I'm an atheist and I'm a good person.


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## grammaneice (Mar 7, 2011)

I only read this to see who was making the biggest fool of themselves, and it's a real close race!!!!!!!


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## Abi_marsden (Aug 5, 2012)

Maybe people should stop reading and writing go and do some knitting or go to bed .im going to bed goodnight.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> What is the most outrageous political statement or action you have ever done?
> 
> I have done quite a few and also my adult daughter has done a few crazy things.
> 
> I sent thrift store linens to President and Nancy Reagan and had the local news in my home to do a story on it.


My son told us he was gay in 1991. I immediately became an advocate for him & all homosexuals by helping to create the 2nd PFLAG group in all of New York City. I was a huge part in the very big changes that happened from then until I moved away in 1996. I have never been prouder of my self and my son & the wonderful friends we made throughout those 5 years & the changes we caused to happen in such a major American city. My activities slowed to a crawl after that, but, I still advocate, stand up for & stand on my soap box when I can do so to this day.


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## SwampCatNana (Dec 27, 2012)

msusanc said:


> Administrator, don't you think this thread should be removed?


Why? If you don't like it, don't come to it! Click "unwatch", and it won't bother you!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

kneonknitter said:


> My son told us he was gay in 1991. I immediately became an advocate for him & all homosexuals by helping to create the 2nd PFLAG group in all of New York City. I was a huge part in the very big changes that happened from then until I moved away in 1996. I have never been prouder of my self and my son & the wonderful friends we made throughout those 5 years & the changes we caused to happen in such a major American city. My activities slowed to a crawl after that, but, I still advocate, stand up for & stand on my soap box when I can do so to this day.


You should be very proud of yourself, as I am sure your son is proud of you too.


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Abi_marsden said:


> Why should something so interesting be moved or removed? Don't like it don't read it's not to differcult to work that out for yourself ,is it now? As for thinking you have to follow god to be be good is just completly crazy.so are we now saying if you don't follow god your not a good person.? I'm an atheist and I'm a good person.


Agree. Some of the best people I have ever known were atheists and agnostics.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

mirium said:


> The most outrageous thing I ever joined in was in response to a local restaurant owner who said in an interview that the law forced him to serve black people but it couldn't control the quality of their meal or service. We didn't want a confrontation but couldn't do nothing. So, with grins from those of us who were black, those of us who were white made reservations in groups of 2 or 4, all for the same evening -- and showed up in blackface makeup. It was an interesting dining experience!
> 
> I also participated in the traditional Annual Tuition Riot at my college, which takes place at noon the day after the tuition increase is announced. Students march down the long hallway of the main building chanting "(however many) Dollars, Too D**n Much!", then stage a 15-minute sit-in on the busy street in front of the building, then everyone stands up and goes to lunch. The local police stop traffic for the sit-in and the students are very scrupulous about the 15-minute limit, so the cops enjoy telling frustrated drivers that the protest will break up in exactly X minutes, Y seconds -- and it does.


Wonderful! Congratulations to you and your cohorts.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

grammyv said:


> The Reagans were often criticized for the $209,508 cost, but the china was not funded by taxpayers. It was paid for by the J.P. Knapp Foundation.
> 
> Seems as if you wasted your time and your money
> :thumbdown:


Thanks for the info. I do not consider it a waste of time nor money. It was a valid statement on a woman who thought she needed new china and table linens when her husbands policies were hurting people's ability to just get by day to day. Whether the china and linens were paid for by private money or not was not the issue.


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## Ozzie Jane (Jul 5, 2013)

I'm bored with this subject... so I'm moving on.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Camacho said:


> I grew up with the notion that war is foolish but true peace has to come from within us as individuals. Within a few days after 9/11 I was at a neighbor's house. This neighbor was a Christian woman married to a Muslim. Another neighbor was there who had a lot of family members in the military. And there was me: a Christian woman who is opposed to all war, married to a Jewish man who considers himself a Jewish peace activist. Years earlier I had heard that when Hitler had gone into Denmark and forced the Jews to wear yellow stars, that non-Jewish Danes had put on yellow stars, too. Inspired by this thought, I said that if there were any violence against any Muslim in our city on account of their religion I would go to the next public event wearing hijab. Within a few more days sure enough a group of teenage boys attacked a young Muslim woman who was wearing hijab. She was actually an Irish-American native of our area who had converted. They young boys had just seen the covered head and assumed that the woman must not be American, and in particular must be Arab, and apparently cast some insults to that effect, as well. Within a few more days there was another "peace rally" in front of City Hall. In my town these had all too quickly become rather militaristic so they were anything but peace rallies. That evening before going, I went to my neighbor's house, and she wrapped a Syrian scarf around my head. I could "pass" very easily. Her husband did quite the double take when he arrived home from work unaware of my plan and saw me. And we went together to the so-called peace rally and stood quietly in the back. If looks could kill I would have been in severe danger that evening. Some time before the event came to an end, the neighbor's husband drove us home as he said it would be dangerous for me to either stay there any longer or to walk even the few blocks home. I had mentioned my idea in passing to an editor of the local paper, who told me to write about it in a letter to the editor afterward, and I did.


I am so touched by your courage and conviction. You inspire me.


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## Marlys (Mar 15, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> I often access posts here that I think are silly, or too much out of my range of view, or for me overly religious. I read them and then leave the thread without commenting.


If the posts here are too much out of your range you might be in the wrong forum go find one that suits you and leave us alone


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Marlys said:


> If the posts here are too much out of your range you might be in the wrong forum go find one that suits you and leave us alone


Perhaps I did not say what I meant very well. There are subjects on KP that I access and then see they are not my cup of tea. I leave that subject/post/thread whatever the term and do not comment. But then again maybe I do not understand your comment.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'd have exploded. And they told me to 'Be nice.' And 'be a little lady.' I'm afraid it brought out a bit of the rebel in me.



cakes said:


> way I was reared. "sit over there, read your book and i dont want to hear a word from you all afternoon". at just on 80 I see no reason to do otherwise.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I believe the standard is ignore it if you don't wish to participate.



Lolly12 said:


> Do you really think that outrageous political statements or actions are the norm?You ask this question with a flippant attitude,my ire is definitely up.Why is there political B......t on this forum, you do this to cause trouble and i'm really pissed
> :twisted:


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

NJG said:


> You should be very proud of yourself, as I am sure your son is proud of you too.


Thank you. I am more proud of him than of myself. I was just a mother doing what she needed to do for her child. He was the one who suffered all the turmoil of prejudice. I marched with him in NYC Gay Pride Parade 2 years in a row. The 3rd year, our fledgling PFLAG group was finally recognized by the city & the borough of Queens so there was lots & lots of work to be done. We had our own Gay Pride Parade to put together & it turned out to be very successful with 3X more people in attendance than we anticipated & it lasted well into the night time hours. The police looked away from our 'conditional parade permit' but, finally made everyone break it up at 10 pm. One of our co founders was an elementary school teacher who is now an Assemblyman for the district that originally supported our PFLAG Chapter. My son is a wonderful man of 39 now & who tells everyone that he wouldn't be who he is if it weren't for his parents. I can't imagine that I would have done anything differently.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I feel that the USA has a desperate need for strong Unions now. Thanks BunnyZ for having the strength of your convictions. As a retired person, I would never cross a picket line and I boycott any product from unfair corporations. Let us know what's going on.



BunnyZ said:


> I have been and am active in the Trade Union movement. Everyone's point of view is of some value. Even if it makes us more certain of our own views. My involvement has allowed me to grow in my own trade and I hope helped others to progress. I guess one of the most exciting and heart pounding events I was involved in was a picket ( over 1000 of us} where armed security folks took photos of us from the roof tops. Everything turned out fine....but it makes you think about your motivation and resolution. Carry on with your convictions.


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## norm13 (Jul 15, 2012)

cakes said:


> just as well, 'cause I aint gonna change my horse in midstream


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think it is important to voice our views to influence decisions....by government and corporations....not individuals. Do you ever respond to surveys? Why is it 'wiser to keep your mouth shut?'



courier770 said:


> Encourage others to protest? Why? I tend to believe t hat most people are capable of making their own decisions and forming their own opinions. MY concerns may not be those shared by my neighbors and theirs may not be ones that I share.
> 
> While our first amendment protects our freedom of speech...sometimes it's wiser to keep your mouth shut.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't understand why you are trying to control another adult. If it is not to your liking, shouldn't you go away?



Lolly12 said:


> I DID NOT OPEN THIS THREAD YOU DID?hOW OLD ARE YOU?I am not an American,I don't give a S..t about politics.I have been on this earth long enough to know who the people are that need to be in the spotlight.Tell me what motivates you to childish behavior.Go away


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

I am inspired by and in amazement of the many political actions shared here. There is a great wide community of active people who both knit and raise political awareness.


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## Elin (Sep 17, 2011)

Here we go again..


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

This is called "General Chit Chat." Threads of a political nature belong here.



ladysjk said:


> There is a whole section dedicated to political post, that may be a better place to post this question?? Maybe??


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> I often access posts here that I think are silly, or too much out of my range of view, or for me overly religious. I read them and then leave the thread without commenting.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Why are you so angry? No one has tried to influence your beliefs or tried to force anything on you. Why would you tell someone else to keep their mouth shut. It doesn't seem that you really support everyone's freedom of speech. How does what peacegoddess say harm or threaten you in any way? Your anger is truly frightening. What on earth are you so afraid of?
> Your actions are really over the top not to mention rude. Why did you feel the need to even respond on this thread when you could have just read it and moved along?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

kneonknitter said:


> Thank you. I am more proud of him than of myself. I was just a mother doing what she needed to do for her child. He was the one who suffered all the turmoil of prejudice. I marched with him in NYC Gay Pride Parade 2 years in a row. The 3rd year, our fledgling PFLAG group was finally recognized by the city & the borough of Queens so there was lots & lots of work to be done. We had our own Gay Pride Parade to put together & it turned out to be very successful with 3X more people in attendance than we anticipated & it lasted well into the night time hours. The police looked away from our 'conditional parade permit' but, finally made everyone break it up at 10 pm. One of our co founders was an elementary school teacher who is now an Assemblyman for the district that originally supported our PFLAG Chapter. My son is a wonderful man of 39 now & who tells everyone that he wouldn't be who he is if it weren't for his parents. I can't imagine that I would have done anything differently.


I think you are both very lucky to have each other. I have said many times to people who are happy to voice their anti gay retoric, to be very careful. If you are a parent or a grand parent, those words may come back to bite you. A good friend of mine just found out her grand son is gay. He is accepted and loved as the same wonderful young man he was before he came out to them. I just wish it could be that way for everyone.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It is welcome here.



minniemo said:


> Forgive me if I am wrong but is there not a particular part of the forum that is specifically for Political Discussion and that is not on Chit Chat


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That is not the only site. See Denim & Pearls, Smoking and Obamacare, and others.



minniemo said:


> minniemo wrote:
> Forgive me if I am wrong but is there not a particular part of the forum that is specifically for Political Discussion and that is not on Chit Chat
> 
> peacegoddess wrote
> ...


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

khmullins said:


> I find that the best way for me to express my political standing is through email and phone calls to elected officials. I don't pull any punches and have seen votes change when the volume is sufficient to reach that person.
> If you watch the news you are aware that the pure volume of responses have changed the votes in congress about the war the President seems intent on starting. Hope that will also change his mind.
> There are channels that can get things done without picketing or demonstrations. Too often that leads to violence and sometimes even death.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

I am trying to figure out what the purpose of this thread is. Other than a lot of anger, I don't see any substance at all.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Your opinions are valued. Please join in when you wish.



EveMCooke said:


> In 1988 I joined the protest group on the Hobart wharf, protesting about the US nuclear armed war ship about to dock there. They moved the vessel away from the wharf and ferried the sailors ashore in their small boats. The protest was not against the sailors but against the presence of a nuclear armed warship in our city. The protest was organised by the Quakers.
> 
> Now I am going into hiding as I know I shall be shot down in flames by certain posters here. They will tell me I have no right to express my opinions here because I am not an American but an alien, et et etc.
> 
> Unfortunately I was not in Sydney in the mid 1960's when protestors threw red paint over LBJ's car to protest against the Vietnam war. If I had been there I would have been in that protest too.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Lostie said:


> I once considered marching to the town hall and chaining myself to the railings until they told me why gooseberries wouldn't grow in my garden ... does that count?


What size chain? Or was it knit?


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

People have corresponded for something like 7 pages on a "vent session" by one member over a misunderstanding that has been resolved for darned close to a week. I am not sure why this is any different than that. 
If someone doesn't want to read a thread, can't they just click on "unwatch"?
LOL, I have done it with threads I have started and tired of. 
Oh, maybe that was my most outrageous political act... cussing out that member who likes to stalk people and abuse them.



damemary said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

I see no reason for outrageous political actions. Sending used linens to the Reagans is useless and tasteless. What point did that make? They probably opened it, tossed it and said, "we'll there are crazies all over."


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## kathycam (Apr 24, 2012)

NJG said:


> I think you are both very lucky to have each other. I have said many times to people who are happy to voice their anti gay retoric, to be very careful. If you are a parent or a grand parent, those words may come back to bite you. A good friend of mine just found out her grand son is gay. He is accepted and loved as the same wonderful young man he was before he came out to them. I just wish it could be that way for everyone.


Very well said and wise. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## msusanc (Apr 5, 2011)

SwampCatNana said:


> Why? If you don't like it, don't come to it! Click "unwatch", and it won't bother you!


Was I talking to you? Are you the administrator I'm not reading it -- I just think this political nonsense has no place in this knitting forum


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

msusanc said:


> Was I talking to you? Are you the administrator I'm not reading it -- I just think this political nonsense has no place in this knitting forum


So just unwatch!


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

courier770 said:


> Since you mention me on a regular basis, particularly in the past couple of weeks (in addition to another KP member) and others have noticed it...I assume the sign you have posted is an admission of guilt.


Courier, you have, unfortunately, challenged a group of very angry, spiteful people. You were on target with your comment. I'm like you in that I don't appreciate people bragging about actions that I see as a time waster, much less rude and pointless. I don't want to hear their political rants, and I find actions like these juvenile bullying. Because you called PeaceGoddess on it, her friends climbed on in an attack. They don't like dissent. Ignore them. Rational people agree with you.


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## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

msusanc said:


> Was I talking to you? Are you the administrator I'm not reading it -- I just think this political nonsense has no place in this knitting forum


I agree totally with your thoughts. Liz


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Courier, you have, unfortunately, challenged a group of very angry, spiteful people. You were on target with your comment. I'm like you in that I don't appreciate people bragging about actions that I see as a time waster, much less rude and pointless. I don't want to hear their political rants, and I find actions like these juvenile bullying. Because you called PeaceGoddess on it, her friends climbed on in an attack. They don't like dissent. Ignore them. Rational people agree with you.


I consider myself a rational person, but I also think there is a place for letting the government know when you think there is an issue which isn't being addressed. Those folks in the 1770's, who earned us the right to govern ourselves were agitators for sure, and the mostly women who earned women the right to vote made a lot of noise, too! I've never met PeaceGoddess, but do seem to agree with the things she has posted.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> I see no reason for outrageous political actions. Sending used linens to the Reagans is useless and tasteless. What point did that make? They probably opened it, tossed it and said, "we'll there are crazies all over."


Thanks for your feedback.


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## SwampCatNana (Dec 27, 2012)

msusanc said:


> Was I talking to you? Are you the administrator I'm not reading it -- I just think this political nonsense has no place in this knitting forum


Obviously you have not read others who have pointed out the same thing about your comment.
It doesn't take an administrator to prevent you from looking here. All it takes is common sense. 
Don't like this thread, DON'T READ IT! Unwatch it!

Wake up! I would have thought you got the message already! 
It is obvious you don't like this thread *yet you continue to read it*!
How odd!

If you weren't reading it, as you state above, you would not have seen my comment! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

Yep, yep yep...a whole lot of anger.


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## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

grammaneice said:


> I only read this to see who was making the biggest fool of themselves, and it's a real close race!!!!!!!


True.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

kathycam said:


> Very well said and wise. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Thank you Kathy


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## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> I consider myself a rational person, but I also think there is a place for letting the government know when you think there is an issue which isn't being addressed. Those folks in the 1770's, who earned us the right to govern ourselves were agitators for sure, and the mostly women who earned women the right to vote made a lot of noise, too! I've never met PeaceGoddess, but do seem to agree with the things she has posted.


You are old friends with Peace so your words are nonsense.


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## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

blessedinMO said:


> Yep, yep yep...a whole lot of anger.


Agree, agree, agree:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

SwampCatNana said:


> Obviously you have not read others who have pointed out the same thing about your comment.
> It doesn't take an administrator to prevent you from looking here. All it takes is common sense.
> Don't like this thread, DON'T READ IT! Unwatch it!
> 
> ...


Crazy reply.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

Meerkat said:


> You are old friends with Peace so your words are nonsense.


Your are wrong. This is the first time I have ever read her posts.


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## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

damemary said:


> I don't understand why you are trying to control another adult. If it is not to your liking, shouldn't you go away?


Trying to control her as you thought she was trying to do? Crazy


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## SwampCatNana (Dec 27, 2012)

Meerkat said:


> Crazy reply.


Why?


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## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

grammyv said:


> The Reagans were often criticized for the $209,508 cost, but the china was not funded by taxpayers. It was paid for by the J.P. Knapp Foundation.
> 
> Seems as if you wasted your time and your money
> :thumbdown:


Absolutely correct as I'm sure the pkg was opened before it reached the Reagan's and discarded as the trash it was.


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## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

Abi_marsden said:


> grammyv
> Joined: Feb 11, 11
> Messages: 510
> Feedback: 0/0.0%
> ...


This proves what???? Crazy


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## SwampCatNana (Dec 27, 2012)

Have to laugh at the turn this thread is taking! Wow. :roll:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

kathycam said:


> Very well said and wise. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Very well said. We are all equal in the eyes of God but too many people on the right hate everyone and worst of all they make it a point to try and silence anyone who disagrees with them. Hitler tried that too and so did Stalin. They make me laugh. Sorry folks. We are all wise to you on KP. Go scurry back to D&P and talk to your pseudo Christian friends who think they know everything, even the big blow hard there runs all over KP telling everyone who is and isn't going to hell. What ever happened to "Judge not lest ye be judged"? I guess that doesn't fit into the new gospel according to the Tea Party and one of their headliners Ms Bachmann and her Pray the Gay away crazy husband Marcus. Oh and those holy rollers have a date with the courts for misappropriating campaign funds. I guess stealing has become another virtue of this new religion of the right.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

We can get back on track by thinking what act we would want to do now in 2013 on any social issue that needs some action. Did anyone catch the "bloody" hands behind Biden last week? Code Pink is pretty outrageous.


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## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

NJG said:


> The only reason it "promotes hatred," as you say is because some people want to control what others do and say, and when that doesn't work, then they get mad. You do not have to read any of this. It is your choice, get mad or don't read it, but don't tell others what to do.


You are an old regular who tells a person what to do especially with your Democratic Party. Anything said is out of order if it concerns another party. Tell the truth as it is a blessing on the soul.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

SwampCatNana said:


> Why? If you don't like it, don't come to it! Click "unwatch", and it won't bother you!


Sad how these people who don't like this thread can't just walk away. They are a very pervasive and destructive bunch of Tea Party folk who plant themselves all over KP chit chat threads they find objectionable and threaten and intimidate others trying to force them to leave. Freedom applies to only one group and that would be them. If they could pull it off they would have us all living in a theocracy same as the Muslim terrorists do but it would be the Christian equivalent so it would be OK. They only hate all the same "bad" people the Muslims do except they hate Muslims too. We are all going to hell to unless we are washed in the blood of Jesus. Just ask them and they will gladly tell you. They have X-ray vision and they can see everybody's soul. Now isn't that special?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

What a great example they set, I just printed up your post and tossed it out, saying that there are people all over who don't understand our right to free speech and expression, or our responsibilty to hold politicians accountable.



Knit crazy said:


> I see no reason for outrageous political actions. Sending used linens to the Reagans is useless and tasteless. What point did that make? They probably opened it, tossed it and said, "we'll there are crazies all over."


----------



## KnitPicker (Jan 19, 2011)

Marlys said:


> If the posts here are too much out of your range you might be in the wrong forum go find one that suits you and leave us alone


Come now. Everyone is welcome. I think she did the right thing - read and moved on. She didn't comment about the other posts. It does make me wonder why she commented on this one if she thought it silly or out of her range. However, she certainly has the right to comment.

I think everyone's remarks can teach us something - in one way or another. Whether we agree or not, let everyone have a say that wants one. When we get tired of the subject, we can opt out and not be bothered again, unless we want to. I find this topic very interesting. Do I agree with everyone - not by a long shot. But, everyone has the right to tell their feelings. Just like I do and just like you do.


----------



## davidknits (Jul 24, 2013)

i am literally right now listening to "People" by streisand.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Meerkat said:


> You are an old regular who tells a person what to do especially with your Democratic Party. Anything said is out of order if it concerns another party. Tell the truth as it is a blessing on the soul.


Go bless your own soul meerkat. You are a cheap huckster who runs around trying to silence any one who doesn't subscribe to your perverted Tea Party/Fake Christian beliefs. You are not going to silence anyone so go join your buddies on K&P. You are wasting your time here because we aren't going anywhere.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

For all that I was not fond of Mrs. Reagan I have an idea that she was not wasteful. I bet that unlike your idea Nancy Reagan gave her staff instructions to donate such items.



Meerkat said:


> Absolutely correct as I'm sure the pkg was opened before it reached the Reagan's and discarded as the trash it was.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

For all that I was not fond of Mrs. Reagan I have an idea that she was not wasteful. I bet that unlike your idea Nancy Reagan gave her staff instructions to donate such items.



Meerkat said:


> Absolutely correct as I'm sure the pkg was opened before it reached the Reagan's and discarded as the trash it was.


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

davidknits said:


> i am literally right now listening to "People" by streisand.


Love her music.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

People are creative in their actions. I loved the 15 minute student sit in. Young people are sometimes maligned for not being involved. These students were active and made their point.

Sort of reminds me of the stand up committe meetings. Just a limited amount of time to make your point.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> For all that I was not fond of Mrs. Reagan I have an idea that she was not wasteful. I bet that unlike your idea Nancy Reagan gave her staff instructions to donate such items.


It was returned by the social secretary with a note thanking me.


----------



## elly69 (May 3, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> Good for you and all your fellow union picketers! Remember that now you most likely have a FBI file.. So did Eleanor Roosevelt! We are in grand company.


Do we really need to have politics on this forum at all?


----------



## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

elly69 said:


> Do we really need to have politics on this forum at all?


Elly, I think this is the point at which you will be told that you can go to another thread...if you don't like what is going on. I don't think you get a vote in what goes on.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

elly69 said:


> Do we really need to have politics on this forum at all?


Politics are a part of life. there is an old saying, "the personel is political" If there was a war in an area that produces a great deal of a favorite yarn and the export of the yarn was stopped as a result might we all care about the politics that brought about the conflcit?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

elly69 said:


> Do we really need to have politics on this forum at all?


You know, Ellie, I don't use a machine to knit. I don't look at the threads that are utilized by those who do, if I did check them out I am thinking that I would be quickly bored. I would not say "do we really need to have machine knitting on the forum at all?" I would simply stay away. 
All of you who seem to feel it is necessary to question the usefulness or whether it is appropriate to have a thread such as this are a real distraction to those who want it. 
What do you think is the best thing to do?


----------



## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

See what I mean?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

NJG said:


> Thank you Kathy


Hey there, NJG. Just bouncing off your post, I hope you don't mind.

I think it is time to remember "Just don't engage".

Those who want this thread to continue ... do you really care what these controlling posters think? 
Can't we just impose our own little ignore and take the power back to ourselves? 
Please?


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Has anyone here heard of Global Fund for Women? It is a wonderful non profit based in SF, but international in scope that empowers women across the world in social, economic, and political areas.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

I don't know that I have ever participated in anything that was particularly outrageous I have attended many lines in support of strikers, I have attended a few Jobs with Justice hearings about inequity in the workplace. 
Probably the most fun I have had was taking over as chief steward in my local so that I was able to generate lots of work for management during investigations for show cause hearings and arbitration prep for members. 
I would LOVE to be part of a civil disobedience action. I couldn't do it while I was employed as we would be suspended and not allowed to return to work until the court case was resolved with a not guilty any time we were arrested. Most of you probably know that those cases are usually continued for a year or so without a finding and then dismissed. At least it works that way here in Mass most of the time. 
I am hoping that once I get hooked up with whoever is doing pay inequity stuff around here I will have that opportunity. 
LOL, strange kind of bucket list.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> People are creative in their actions. I loved the 15 minute student sit in. Young people are sometimes maligned for not being involved. These students were active and made their point.
> 
> Sort of reminds me of the stand up committe meetings. Just a limited amount of time to make your point.


peacegoddess - I did the war protests during Vietnam, protested the protesters at Planned Parenthood and most a year ago worked with the GLBT community to support VOTE NO to prevent amending the wording of our constitution to read marriage is between one man and one woman. We won that battle and we won the right for our GLBT friends to be "married" in the state of MN. We have had our first marriages in the state and it is wonderful. I don't see any of this as being outrageous but I have been criticized by people who believe my involvement in any of these activities to be misguided, evil and un American and some have told me I will burn in hell. I just give them a warm smile and accept this as affirmation that I did the right thing. All I was doing was standing up for rights for myself and my fellow citizens and letting my government know how I felt about them waging a war I didn't believe in that ended up killing thousands of American soldiers who gave their lives for nothing not to mention all the lives lost on the other side. The older I get the more radical I have become and who knows what may be required of me in the future. I may be chained to something or end up in jail but I am not afraid. I will always speak truth to power no matter what the cost.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

The group does seem to have supported some great actions. 
Is this an organization that you are affiliated with, peacegoddess?



peacegoddess said:


> Has anyone here heard of Global Fund for Women? It is a wonderful non profit based in SF, but international in scope that empowers women across the world in social, economic, and political areas.


----------



## Kathie (Mar 29, 2011)

I think we all agree that any of us can post to this subject and we can disagree with anything we choose. People are told they can just not read things if they don't like them because they are complaining that the subject has been brought up at all. I don't believe most people here are trying to limit what the opposing opinion has to say. They just don't like the fact that people are complaining about the subject being brought up in the first place. If it upsets you maybe you should decide not to read it but it's your choice. I know I try to avoid things that raise my blood pressure. :lol: :lol:


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

davidknits said:


> i am literally right now listening to "People" by streisand.


HAHAHAHA, that is an outrageous political statement for sure!


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> I don't know that I have ever participated in anything that was particularly outrageous I have attended many lines in support of strikers, I have attended a few Jobs with Justice hearings about inequity in the workplace.
> Probably the most fun I have had was taking over as chief steward in my local so that I was able to generate lots of work for management during investigations for show cause hearings and arbitration prep for members.
> I would LOVE to be part of a civil disobedience action. I couldn't do it while I was employed as we would be suspended and not allowed to return to work until the court case was resolved with a not guilty any time we were arrested. Most of you probably know that those cases are usually continued for a year or so without a finding and then dismissed. At least it works that way here in Mass most of the time.
> I am hoping that once I get hooked up with whoever is doing pay inequity stuff around here I will have that opportunity.
> LOL, strange kind of bucket list.


A great list! I know people who will leave an event before it gets to the arrest stage because they have dependents.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> It was returned by the social secretary with a note thanking me.


 :thumbup:


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Double post, sorry.


----------



## sparrefankerl (Feb 9, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> What is the most outrageous political statement or action you have ever done?
> 
> I have done quite a few and also my adult daughter has done a few crazy things.
> 
> I sent thrift store linens to President and Nancy Reagan and had the local news in my home to do a story on it.


I think you opened a can of worms.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Time for bed. I just hate that work is so tiring.


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## Grandma Jo (Feb 18, 2011)

My Gosh, 16 pages of this stuff. What are the new people coming onto KP gonna think about all this. This is a knitting site you know. I know there is a place to discuss other topics but this is ridiculous.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Grandma Jo said:


> My Gosh, 16 pages of this stuff. What are the new people coming onto KP gonna think about all this. This is a knitting site you know. I know there is a place to discuss other topics but this is ridiculous.


Thanks for your feedback.


----------



## knovice knitter (Mar 6, 2012)

Getting back to the original question...outrageous political actions. I guess one was when a group of students and I formed a committee to stop the flow of the Fox River in Green Bay, Wi. It flows North (unusual) into the Bay. On its journey, it passes through many cities which support the paper industry. Actually, the paper industry supports the city and causes hideous ecological damage and health problems. Our group, symbolically, stopped the flow of the river for one hour by closing the dams. Of course, as soon as the dams were reopened, the pollution flowed with sweet abandon (make that poisonous abandon). As with the linens sent to the Reagans, the point will be missed and considered a waste of time. I don't believe it was. Slowly, but surely, the restrictions were put on the mills to stop dirtying the waters and clean up what has been done. Our demonstration gave us a platform to shout out to our river communities what has been going on. 

I continue to write and call my representatives in government, work the phones during election time, march at our state capital, attend press conferences, and participate in town meetings. I also was part of a group who made a video to send to Washington expressing our ideas on healthcare. I do all of this politely, never raising my voice or fist. Well, I did use a megaphone once, but just to be heard, not confrontational.


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## Chezl (Mar 12, 2012)

I have read every post and I have found all the views interesting. Different courses for different horses.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> The group does seem to have supported some great actions.
> Is this an organization that you are affiliated with, peacegoddess?


The short answer is yes.

The long answer is ......
I did a house party for them about 12 yers ago right after the Afghan invaision. We raised about $1,500.00 that was specifically directed to Afghani women. Later on I withheld the amount of tax money that went to the war effort (calculation helped by Tax Resisters League) from my taxes and donated it to Global Fund. Of course no good deed goes unpunished and I did have to pay the tax money to the IRS (tax resisters tells you this will happen). I sent the amount in a "check" that was a paper peace flag filled out just as a check would be. It took the IRS four months to cash the check.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

knovice knitter said:


> Getting back to the original question...outrageous political actions. I guess one was when a group of students and I formed a committee to stop the flow of the Fox River in Green Bay, Wi. It flows North (unusual) into the Bay. On its journey, it passes through many cities which support the paper industry. Actually, the paper industry supports the city and causes hideous ecological damage and health problems. Our group, symbolically, stopped the flow of the river for one hour by closing the dams. Of course, as soon as the dams were reopened, the pollution flowed with sweet abandon (make that poisonous abandon). As with the linens sent to the Reagans, the point will be missed and considered a waste of time. I don't believe it was. Slowly, but surely, the restrictions were put on the mills to stop dirtying the waters and clean up what has been done. Our demonstration gave us a platform to shout out to our river communities what has been going on.
> 
> I continue to write and call my representatives in government, work the phones during election time, march at our state capital, attend press conferences, and participate in town meetings. I also was part of a group who made a video to send to Washington expressing our ideas on healthcare. I do all of this politely, never raising my voice or fist. Well, I did use a megaphone once, but just to be heard, not confrontational.


Mother earth thanks you and your sister and fellow protesters!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> A great list! I know people who will leave an event before it gets to the arrest stage because they have dependents.


I did know such a man...no dependents, but because he was an immigrant he was forced by circumstances to stand to one side with the first aid kid (no kidding--the people in his organization got bonked by the police on a regular basis).


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I did know such a man...no dependents, but because he was an immigrant he was forced by circumstances to stand to one side with the first aid kid (no kidding--the people in his organization got bonked by the police on a regular basis).


Isn't it interesting watching the news shots of a protest? The protesters have bandanas on their faces and carry water bottles and backpacks. The police are in riot gear with facemasks, have batons, teargas, protective body armour. who is going to get hurt the most in these instances?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Bravi to the knitters who take a stand.. Peacegoddess - I love your creative civil disobedience. I also love your avatar. I always wear my hamsa.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

I protested openly against the War in Vietnam. It was very unpopular then but times have changed and at least most of us have come to our senses. Many Vietnam Veterans are still suffering. I am glad I involved myself and would do it again in a heartbeat.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I think activism is a necessary and important route to change and/or gaining attention for an issue or a group. Those of you who have participated in some type of action should be proud of yourselves. It's not always an easy thing to do. I am reminded of the Aids epidemic and how being very vocal and active really got attention focused on this disease which resulted in tons of money raised for research. Today many people are living long, productive lives with the HIV virus. I think activists were instrumental in the progress that has been made in finding treatment for and preventing this disease. I have participated in breast cancer marches in Sacramento to focus attention on the many women being affected and dying from breast cancer. i always thought that breast cancer and other women's diseases didn't get the attention they deserved because women were too passive. i've also walked a picket line and participated in a number of peaceful demonstrations.
And of course, I've sent a ton of email to President Obama and my representative.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

SQM said:


> Bravi to the knitters who take a stand.. Peacegoddess - I love your creative civil disobedience. I also love your avatar. I always wear my hamsa.


Thank you. We are all strong brave wo/men and do what we can on a day to day basis.

I have hamsas all throughout my house and one on my purse. I would love to find a knitting pattern for a hamsa. Maybe to knit into a hat or scarf.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Grandma Jo said:


> My Gosh, 16 pages of this stuff. What are the new people coming onto KP gonna think about all this. This is a knitting site you know. I know there is a place to discuss other topics but this is ridiculous.


Grandma Jo
had our Grandma's spoken up while knitting years ago Women most likely would be receiving equal pay now. Particularly Knitters are way underpaid and deserve better.


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## Nussa (Jul 7, 2011)

Why would someone named "PEACEGODDESS" ask a political question???? It certainly won't promote peace. 
I say let that sleeping dog lie....... JMO!


peacegoddess said:


> Why do you presume to know my motivation? Should I ask "What ways do you bury your head in the sand?" on important political issues. Why did you open the thread? Anything that is is norm is generally not going to create thought provoking discussion.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Bravo to those who know & give unconditional love.



kathycam said:


> Very well said and wise. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I am talking to YOU. Stay out of it if you don't wish to join.



msusanc said:


> Was I talking to you? Are you the administrator I'm not reading it -- I just think this political nonsense has no place in this knitting forum


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

pardoquilts said:


> So just unwatch!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Nussa said:


> Why would someone named "PEACEGODDESS" ask a political question???? It certainly won't promote peace.
> I say let that sleeping dog lie....... JMO!


If you want peace work for justice. The personel is political and that is what I work for.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You are obviously in the wrong place. I'm sure someone with manners will leave graciously. If you don't leave......



Knit crazy said:


> Courier, you have, unfortunately, challenged a group of very angry, spiteful people. You were on target with your comment. I'm like you in that I don't appreciate people bragging about actions that I see as a time waster, much less rude and pointless. I don't want to hear their political rants, and I find actions like these juvenile bullying. Because you called PeaceGoddess on it, her friends climbed on in an attack. They don't like dissent. Ignore them. Rational people agree with you.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Wonderful! Congratulations to you and your cohorts.


I love when people stand up for their rights & principles in ways that does not hurt other people, but, educates them. There is no room for violence in my life.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

pardoquilts said:


> I consider myself a rational person, but I also think there is a place for letting the government know when you think there is an issue which isn't being addressed. Those folks in the 1770's, who earned us the right to govern ourselves were agitators for sure, and the mostly women who earned women the right to vote made a lot of noise, too! I've never met PeaceGoddess, but do seem to agree with the things she has posted.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And someone with manners would leave politely.



SwampCatNana said:


> Obviously you have not read others who have pointed out the same thing about your comment.
> It doesn't take an administrator to prevent you from looking here. All it takes is common sense.
> Don't like this thread, DON'T READ IT! Unwatch it!
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Disagree, disagree


Meerkat said:


> Agree, agree, agree:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


 :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: 
Now what does that prove? That you and your friends are in the wrong place and you should leave. You could tell from the title that this thread might not be to your liking. You came to disrupt the thread.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Not at all. Did you knit the head incorrectly?



Meerkat said:


> Crazy reply.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Keep reading. It will be worth it.



SwampCatNana said:


> Have to laugh at the turn this thread is taking! Wow. :roll:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Very well said. We are all equal in the eyes of God but too many people on the right hate everyone and worst of all they make it a point to try and silence anyone who disagrees with them. Hitler tried that too and so did Stalin. They make me laugh. Sorry folks. We are all wise to you on KP. Go scurry back to D&P and talk to your pseudo Christian friends who think they know everything, even the big blow hard there runs all over KP telling everyone who is and isn't going to hell. What ever happened to "Judge not lest ye be judged"? I guess that doesn't fit into the new gospel according to the Tea Party and one of their headliners Ms Bachmann and her Pray the Gay away crazy husband Marcus. Oh and those holy rollers have a date with the courts for misappropriating campaign funds. I guess stealing has become another virtue of this new religion of the right.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Missed reading about 'Code Pink.' Background please.



peacegoddess said:


> We can get back on track by thinking what act we would want to do now in 2013 on any social issue that needs some action. Did anyone catch the "bloody" hands behind Biden last week? Code Pink is pretty outrageous.


----------



## mirium (May 14, 2013)

Outrageous political actions? I've been assuming that all the posters who have been protesting about this thread have been thinking, "THIS!" as they hit the Send button. But maybe that's just me. :-D


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Nussa said:


> Why would someone named "PEACEGODDESS" ask a political question???? It certainly won't promote peace.
> I say let that sleeping dog lie....... JMO!


Nussa
Who makes you read stuff you do not agree with? The choice is yours. You can come and go as you please.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

damemary said:


> Missed reading about 'Code Pink.' Background please.


I made a mistake I thought it was VP Biden, but as you can see it was Kerry.

Ms. Benjamin and fellow Code Pink members arrived to stand in line outside the House Foreign Affairs Committee meeting room just before 10 a.m., securing a spot that allowed them to take prime seats behind Secretary of State John F. Kerry.

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/4/code-pink-founder-democrats-quiet-in-challenging-o/?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS#ixzz2eMSoKOT5 
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Some people like to exercise their mind on politics. I do, and I find it stimulating when people contribute articles and use logic to discuss important matters. If it's not your cup of tea....



elly69 said:


> Do we really need to have politics on this forum at all?


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> What is the most outrageous political statement or action you have ever done?
> 
> I have done quite a few and also my adult daughter has done a few crazy things.
> 
> I sent thrift store linens to President and Nancy Reagan and had the local news in my home to do a story on it.


My goodness! I read the post as it was written & did not look to see if there were things said 'between the lines'. I think all peacegoddess did was ask a question & then made a statement in answer to her own question to get the conversation going. Where did this undercurrent of anger & defensiveness come from? She didn't preach to us about her particular beliefs or feelings. She merely asked a question. Sheeesh.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

As far as political action goes, I'm actually pretty tame. I don't get around as much as I used to. Manning election stations. Stuffing envelopes (we actually did that in prehistoric times.) Now I sign petitions and write to my Senators and Congressmen. Someone there knows my name.


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## Nussa (Jul 7, 2011)

Where there are people, there is unrest. Has always been, will always be. We each deal with it in our own way. 
You go right ahead and work at obtaining peace in your life the way you see fit...and I will do the same in my own way.......Your way is right, and my way is right....
I don't feel because I'm not out protesting with the masses, that I'm not trying to make my corner of the world a better place. I just do it without conflict... That, is PEACE.


peacegoddess said:


> If you want peace work for justice. The personel is political and that is what I work for.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You will make the world a better place, something many of us hope to do.



jelun2 said:


> I don't know that I have ever participated in anything that was particularly outrageous I have attended many lines in support of strikers, I have attended a few Jobs with Justice hearings about inequity in the workplace.
> Probably the most fun I have had was taking over as chief steward in my local so that I was able to generate lots of work for management during investigations for show cause hearings and arbitration prep for members.
> I would LOVE to be part of a civil disobedience action. I couldn't do it while I was employed as we would be suspended and not allowed to return to work until the court case was resolved with a not guilty any time we were arrested. Most of you probably know that those cases are usually continued for a year or so without a finding and then dismissed. At least it works that way here in Mass most of the time.
> I am hoping that once I get hooked up with whoever is doing pay inequity stuff around here I will have that opportunity.
> LOL, strange kind of bucket list.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Bravo!



knovice knitter said:


> Getting back to the original question...outrageous political actions. I guess one was when a group of students and I formed a committee to stop the flow of the Fox River in Green Bay, Wi. It flows North (unusual) into the Bay. On its journey, it passes through many cities which support the paper industry. Actually, the paper industry supports the city and causes hideous ecological damage and health problems. Our group, symbolically, stopped the flow of the river for one hour by closing the dams. Of course, as soon as the dams were reopened, the pollution flowed with sweet abandon (make that poisonous abandon). As with the linens sent to the Reagans, the point will be missed and considered a waste of time. I don't believe it was. Slowly, but surely, the restrictions were put on the mills to stop dirtying the waters and clean up what has been done. Our demonstration gave us a platform to shout out to our river communities what has been going on.
> 
> I continue to write and call my representatives in government, work the phones during election time, march at our state capital, attend press conferences, and participate in town meetings. I also was part of a group who made a video to send to Washington expressing our ideas on healthcare. I do all of this politely, never raising my voice or fist. Well, I did use a megaphone once, but just to be heard, not confrontational.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Very fitting symbols.



peacegoddess said:


> The short answer is yes.
> 
> The long answer is ......
> I did a house party for them about 12 yers ago right after the Afghan invaision. We raised about $1,500.00 that was specifically directed to Afghani women. Later on I withheld the amount of tax money that went to the war effort (calculation helped by Tax Resisters League) from my taxes and donated it to Global Fund. Of course no good deed goes unpunished and I did have to pay the tax money to the IRS (tax resisters tells you this will happen). I sent the amount in a "check" that was a paper peace flag filled out just as a check would be. It took the IRS four months to cash the check.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> Bravi to the knitters who take a stand.. Peacegoddess - I love your creative civil disobedience. I also love your avatar. I always wear my hamsa.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I will always remember the National Guard opening fire and killing four students at Kent State.



Huckleberry said:


> I protested openly against the War in Vietnam. It was very unpopular then but times have changed and at least most of us have come to our senses. Many Vietnam Veterans are still suffering. I am glad I involved myself and would do it again in a heartbeat.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Peace is a very political issue. And protesting for peace has a long history. Please explain your position.



Nussa said:


> Why would someone named "PEACEGODDESS" ask a political question???? It certainly won't promote peace.
> I say let that sleeping dog lie....... JMO!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I was upset when the US went to war in Afghanistan. I assumed it was for the oil people. I started a movement - Special Knitting Forces - to knit for Afghan women and children - the true victims of the war. It got written up in the local paper (Published in JJ's home town of Hastings, NY. ) Then a PR lady read the article and I got written up in Rosie Magazine and Vogue Knitting. The project got too big for me and I gave it to an unemployed family in Riverdale, NY who ran it for some years out of their garage. If the US gets involved in Syria, maybe I will revive it.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> This is a knitters forum, but this is non-knitting area. Pretty much anything goes here - and does! Knitters get to have opinions, too.
> 
> To answer the actual question, I am old enough to have done some protesting in the 60's, but mostly have spent my life trying to do things on a personal level which would model what I hoped people would see as action that walked my talk. I have, just in the last few days, begun to help organize a group from our church to join a march in Springfield (Illinois)which is in support of Freedom to Marry. This will come up in the legislative session this fall, and we are trying to get as many people as possible to let legislatures know it is time for Illinois to stop denying equal rights to all our citizens.


Thank you & your church. Equal rights is so very important.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Nussa said:


> Where there are people, there is unrest. Has always been, will always be. We each deal with it in our own way.
> You go right ahead and work at obtaining peace in your life the way you see fit...and I will do the same in my own way.......Your way is right, and my way is right....
> I don't feel because I'm not out protesting with the masses, that I'm not trying to make my corner of the world a better place. I just do it without conflict... That, is PEACE.


We all have our methods.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you. I certainly support the right to protest war. I hate it too. It is waged by our best for obscure reasons.

In the case of Syria, I am torn, but I support President Obama. First of all, if we don't hold the Assad regime accountable, many countries will see that there is no enforcement. Do we leave the door open? Secondly, if the word of the President means nothing now, it will affect all presidents to come. Lastly, I think President Obama is a good man who deserves my support.

May God help us. (I know that sounds odd, but our soldiers need it.)



peacegoddess said:


> I made a mistake I thought it was VP Biden, but as you can see it was Kerry.
> 
> Ms. Benjamin and fellow Code Pink members arrived to stand in line outside the House Foreign Affairs Committee meeting room just before 10 a.m., securing a spot that allowed them to take prime seats behind Secretary of State John F. Kerry.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

kneonknitter said:


> My goodness! I read the post as it was written & did not look to see if there were things said 'between the lines'. I think all peacegoddess did was ask a question & then made a statement in answer to her own question to get the conversation going. Where did this undercurrent of anger & defensiveness come from? She didn't preach to us about her particular beliefs or feelings. She merely asked a question. Sheeesh.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Now for my vow. I will strive not to engage those who disrupt the discussion.


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

Nussa Very well said. I'm with you.


Nussa said:


> Where there are people, there is unrest. Has always been, will always be. We each deal with it in our own way.
> You go right ahead and work at obtaining peace in your life the way you see fit...and I will do the same in my own way.......Your way is right, and my way is right....
> I don't feel because I'm not out protesting with the masses, that I'm not trying to make my corner of the world a better place. I just do it without conflict... That, is PEACE.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

There is often more than one way to make a difference. A couple of summers ago it was people going out to Tea Party rallies and town meetings to shout about what they thought was going to be nationalized health care. It was quite the frenzy. 
I see mailing a tablecloth as more inventive and quieter, in my mind it made a more valid point. That was the same sort of point that people try to make today when they claim that the president and his family should forego a vacation because times are hard. 30+ years later people seem to have forgotten we were in some pretty trying times when Ronald Reagan took office, too.



Nussa said:


> Where there are people, there is unrest. Has always been, will always be. We each deal with it in our own way.
> You go right ahead and work at obtaining peace in your life the way you see fit...and I will do the same in my own way.......Your way is right, and my way is right....
> I don't feel because I'm not out protesting with the masses, that I'm not trying to make my corner of the world a better place. I just do it without conflict... That, is PEACE.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Bazinga for the evening, Ladies (and Gentlemen if they're interested.) Later.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

damemary said:


> Now for my vow. I will strive not to engage those who disrupt the discussion.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: 
Striving right along with you...


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> I was upset when the US went to war in Afghanistan. I assumed it was for the oil people. I started a movement - Special Knitting Forces - to knit for Afghan women and children - the true victims of the war. It got written up in the local paper (Published in JJ's home town of Hastings, NY. ) Then a PR lady read the article and I got written up in Rosie Magazine and Vogue Knitting. The project got too big for me and I gave it to an unemployed family in Riverdale, NY who ran it for some years out of their garage. If the US gets involved in Syria, maybe I will revive it.


That is excellent, a way to protest and execute a good deed at the same time! 
 :mrgreen:


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## Charlotte80 (Jan 24, 2011)

I read the first few pages of this post this morning, got back on the PC just now and was curious as to how many pages there are now. This subject sure stirred up a lot of people. Peace!


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

WoW! Very heady stuff, working for the environment is so important.



knovice knitter said:


> Getting back to the original question...outrageous political actions. I guess one was when a group of students and I formed a committee to stop the flow of the Fox River in Green Bay, Wi. It flows North (unusual) into the Bay. On its journey, it passes through many cities which support the paper industry. Actually, the paper industry supports the city and causes hideous ecological damage and health problems. Our group, symbolically, stopped the flow of the river for one hour by closing the dams. Of course, as soon as the dams were reopened, the pollution flowed with sweet abandon (make that poisonous abandon). As with the linens sent to the Reagans, the point will be missed and considered a waste of time. I don't believe it was. Slowly, but surely, the restrictions were put on the mills to stop dirtying the waters and clean up what has been done. Our demonstration gave us a platform to shout out to our river communities what has been going on.
> 
> I continue to write and call my representatives in government, work the phones during election time, march at our state capital, attend press conferences, and participate in town meetings. I also was part of a group who made a video to send to Washington expressing our ideas on healthcare. I do all of this politely, never raising my voice or fist. Well, I did use a megaphone once, but just to be heard, not confrontational.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

JCF said:


> Friederike, I know how you feel. I too got the same "sermon" when growing up and now have low self-esteem that what I have to say is not worth hearing. Sigh.


Ugh...same here. What a bummer. My late DH & I raised our children to say what is on their mind, BUT, in a gentle & respectful manner. I still cannot think fast for a comeback or get up enough courage to speak up for myself. My children on the other hand are quick witted, have no problem saying what is on their minds & thinking fast on their feet, all in the respectful manner we taught them. You get more flies with honey than vinegar. Everyone has a right to speak up & be heard, not squashed as us baby boomers were.


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

Damemary What the world does not need is another WAR! If we go to war who's side will we be on? Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys? And Kerry vacillates back and forth when questions of boots on the ground come up? Nor will he present evidence that it was Assad. The Russians claim it was not Assad. Who do we believe? All this energy would be better spent by giving us and the bereaved relatives answers to what happened in Benghazi.

Our young American men and women should not be used to prevent o's loss of face with his red line. This is a global concern and needs to be addressed by the UN. What happened was horrific but it deserves a worldly solution.

And PS I don't believe anything this president says. And future American presidents will be judged on their merits and veracity.



damemary said:


> Thank you. I certainly support the right to protest war. I hate it too. It is waged by our best for obscure reasons.
> 
> In the case of Syria, I am torn, but I support President Obama. First of all, if we don't hold the Assad regime accountable, many countries will see that there is no enforcement. Do we leave the door open? Secondly, if the word of the President means nothing now, it will affect all presidents to come. Lastly, I think President Obama is a good man who deserves my support.
> 
> May God help us. (I know that sounds odd, but our soldiers need it.)


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## Hipoldfarmgirl (Jun 6, 2013)

When we were about to enter Iraq my pacifist sister in Calif. was out marching against the war, seems like standing on the Golden gate Bridge or somthing. I felt like she would not be listened to and she was not. Did not stop Bushy. I never dreamed that my little middle school son would get enticed and sucked into that war and nearly killed. I nearly died going thru that experience. 
I decided maybe a quilt would get a message across. This summer I made a quilt about the PTSD of my son and of myself due to the Iraq war. Then along came the Modern Quilt Challenge put out by the American Quilter's Society. My quilt will be mailed today to Paducah, Ky to join 112 other modern quilts which will be showcased at the huge quilt show in Des Moines Iowa October 2-5, 2013. If so chosen, it will stay on the travel circuit for one solid year and go to seven major quilt shows.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Too good to waste on such folks! I would have sent them a vinyl plastic number from Wal-Mart!


Actually I would have sent them the disposable picnic table plastic ones. ROFL.


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## CindyMB (Jul 2, 2012)

I read this blog everyday and the one thing I enjoy is the chit chat section where I believe any topic is up for grabs. Just because we like to knit/crochet doesn't mean we are only interested in this one thing. The chit chat section is opened up to any topic for discussion. I read peacefoddess's question and didn't think at all that she was trying to start trouble. I would hate to see this blog become one where people slash others because they are uncomfortable with the topic. If you don't like what is being posted, then skip over it and go to the next topic...it's not like there isn't plenty of them.


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## Hipoldfarmgirl (Jun 6, 2013)

Does this eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth stuff have to go on forever with these little boys with their chests of war toys? Back in the days of the Bible you had 2 eyes and a mouth full of maybe all your teeth. Now it is no chemical weapons but we'll shoot you out with our other weapons then we will incite you into WW III any way we can. 
The war machine just has all these weapons ready and contracted for. We have a friend who makes sights for war planes. His contract assures he will be busy for years to come, job security. Each glass thing that he makes is worth thousands of dollars.
Last week he was afraid the company would be shut down or moved, when they announced a big meeting. NO... the Germans bought out the company because it is such a great investment, so much assured income in it. Meanwhile, my daughter here near Ann Arbor Mich makes auto dashboard components for a French company. They too invested in this good American factory life that we all live here in the Detroit area.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

NJG said:


> I think you are both very lucky to have each other. I have said many times to people who are happy to voice their anti gay retoric, to be very careful. If you are a parent or a grand parent, those words may come back to bite you. A good friend of mine just found out her grand son is gay. He is accepted and loved as the same wonderful young man he was before he came out to them. I just wish it could be that way for everyone.


My late husband & I knew each other almost all our lives. Neither one of us could ever tolerate any kind of cruelty. He always used to say to our childhood/teen peers who were disparaging of someone else 'Be very careful what you say. One day that could be your child.' How right he was.


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## mzmom1 (Mar 4, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> What is the most outrageous political statement or action you have ever done?
> 
> I have done quite a few and also my adult daughter has done a few crazy things.
> 
> I sent thrift store linens to President and Nancy Reagan and had the local news in my home to do a story on it.


There is another section for political posts, peace goddess. It is the "Progressive Women's Forum." To subscribe and see it, click Home, then All Sections. Scroll down to it and click on Subscribe. That's all there is to it.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

Meerkat said:


> Love her music.


davidknits wrote:
i am literally right now listening to "People" by streisand.

Hey!! Are you 2 trying to tell us what music we should be listening to?? ROFL!


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

That is sooooo inspiring, Hipoldfarmgirl! Thanks for putting all that work into your statement.



Hipoldfarmgirl said:


> When we were about to enter Iraq my pacifist sister in Calif. was out marching against the war, seems like standing on the Golden gate Bridge or somthing. I felt like she would not be listened to and she was not. Did not stop Bushy. I never dreamed that my little middle school son would get enticed and sucked into that war and nearly killed. I nearly died going thru that experience.
> I decided maybe a quilt would get a message across. This summer I made a quilt about the PTSD of my son and of myself due to the Iraq war. Then along came the Modern Quilt Challenge put out by the American Quilter's Society. My quilt will be mailed today to Paducah, Ky to join 112 other modern quilts which will be showcased at the huge quilt show in Des Moines Iowa October 2-5, 2013. If so chosen, it will stay on the travel circuit for one solid year and go to seven major quilt shows.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

There is a little spot for on the line with each thread, mzmom, it says "unwatch". That's all there is to it.



mzmom1 said:


> There is another section for political posts, peace goddess. It is the "Progressive Women's Forum." To subscribe and see it, click Home, then All Sections. Scroll down to it and click on Subscribe. That's all there is to it.


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## Leland Sandy (Aug 24, 2011)

I stood on a bridge over the expressway in rush hour before a presidential election and proudly held up a sign for the person I supported. I had had a root canal that afternoon. I felt great about my activism and still do. I am totally sure that some of you wouldn't have supported this person which is the purpose of voting. I most surely have not supported the people that some of you may have chosen. My mother would have said "Well, that's what makes a horse-race!!"


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

kneonknitter said:


> Actually I would have sent them the disposable picnic table plastic ones. ROFL.


From the dollar store?


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Thank you for doing your civic duty even through pain. I think it is great that you were out there working for the candidate of your choice. 
What a sad thing it is that sometimes we have to weigh the practicalities of a viable candidate against the person we REALLY want to vote for.



Leland Sandy said:


> I stood on a bridge over the expressway in rush hour before a presidential election and proudly held up a sign for the person I supported. I had had a root canal that afternoon. I felt great about my activism and still do. I am totally sure that some of you wouldn't have supported this person which is the purpose of voting. I most surely have not supported the people that some of you may have chosen. My mother would have said "Well, that's what makes a horse-race!!"


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## Nussa (Jul 7, 2011)

damemary said:


> Peace is a very political issue. And protesting for peace has a long history. Please explain your position.


So, you say that Peace is a political issue. 
I would hate to think everyone would have to pick a side on a political issue to know what peace is.

I see peace in my family & friends, I see peace in my church....I see peace in my neighbors...peace is everywhere. And I didn't have to protest with anyone to find it. You just have to look in the right places.

I don't choose to look to politics for peace or the lack there of. I'm not uninformed about what is going on in the world politically. I just don't choose to spend the rest of my life dwelling on it. In my own way I use my right to protest when I go to the polls and vote, or go to my local city counsel meeting when they're discussing a matter that is important to my community.
I know I can't cure the problems of the world. I would never presume to be able to do so. But I don't begrudge anyone else the opportunity to try.

It would be nice if everyone could find peace....but like I said before...there will always be some form or world unrest, and things in this world aren't always fair. But there is only one "Being" that I know of who can change that. IMO

I don't feel the need to protest anything right now.....and if I ever do, I will make my feelings known.....but not just for the sake of a good protest.

Those are my feelings on the subject. You say there is a long history of protesting for peace. I agree, and history also tends to repeat itself over & over again. So if you think you are one of those people who can make a dff. in the world by protesting against something, then by all means protest away. It's just not for me.

I hope I explained my position well enough for you to understand.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Conflict is everywhere as well. If you miss that I cannot be sure why other than denial of life's truth.



Nussa said:


> So, you say that Peace is a political issue.
> I would hate to think everyone would have to pick a side on a political issue to know what peace is.
> 
> I see peace in my family & friends, I see peace in my church....I see peace in my neighbors...peace is everywhere. And I didn't have to protest with anyone to find it. You just have to look in the right places.
> ...


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

mzmom1 said:


> There is another section for political posts, peace goddess. It is the "Progressive Women's Forum." To subscribe and see it, click Home, then All Sections. Scroll down to it and click on Subscribe. That's all there is to it.


Why are you suggesting that anyone leave this thread? What bothers you about it? I started the Progressive Women's Forum and a bunch of people who didn't like my political views would come and fill it up with all kinds of unsavory comments and opinions about us. After a time several people on both sides of the political spectrum were kicked off of KP because Admin didn't want to deal with the fighting. All I wanted was a single place for us to gather and the people on the Tea Party side would not leave us alone. I am back on KP with Admins approval and once again have started one thread and once again the Tea Party people are doing everything they can to discourage us. Do you understand how one thread on KP in Chit Chat can arouse such angst in these people that they cannot leave us alone? They have their own home thread, D&P and there are a couple other political threads that they and other people get pretty heated on. I have heard so much talk about protecting personal liberties and protecting the constitution from the new right yet they want anyone who dares to post any ideas other than what they believe to be silenced. Personal liberty but only for them? Now another person, peacegoddess, started this thread and people from the right come out here like a bunch of bloodhounds and try to intimidate her and tell her she doesn't belong. Why? This is America and we are tired of bullies trying to tell us what we should think and where we do and don't belong. We belong right here and there is plenty of room for all of us on KP. Why can't you accept that? Why do you need to even comment in a nasty manner? No one is forcing anyone to be on a thread they don't want to be on but where do you or anyone else think you have the right to tell anyone on KP where they should or should not be. Perhaps you should take a look at your motives and acts and see what is causing you so much internal turmoil that you have to lash out here. Would you have the nerve to do that to someone you had to meet face to face and look them in the eye? It's easy to be a bully when you can do a hit and run on a blog isn't it?


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

jelun2 said:


> From the dollar store?


The dollar store's clearance table. lol


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

kneonknitter said:


> The dollar store's clearance table. lol


 :thumbup: 
There are so many people who cannot understand the antagonism felt toward that man/couple.


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## Nussa (Jul 7, 2011)

Sorry, I would have answered sooner, but I have trouble when reading sentences without punctuation.

Of course I know conflict is everywhere, just like I know I can choose whether or not I'm going to live my life every day worrying about it....Well, I'm not. I'm also not in denial...I'm just being practical.

I would have to understand what you consider the "truth" in order to be in denial of it. And frankly, I'm just not that interested.



jelun2 said:


> Conflict is everywhere as well. If you miss that I cannot be sure why other than denial of life's truth.


----------



## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

Cheeky, how do you expect to be 'left alone'? You are in a public forum with politics being a universally volatile issue.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

I would hazard a guess that if you spent five minutes or so thinking about the various meanings of that phrase you could figure it out all by yourself. If you are unable to, please, get back to me and I will try to explain it for you in very simple terms.



blessedinMO said:


> Cheeky, how do you expect to be 'left alone'? You are in a public forum with politics being a universally volatile issue.


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## Nussa (Jul 7, 2011)

Oh......you needn't worry about it......I'm always very careful to take my time with those who tend to write long run on sentences..... I wouldn't want to misunderstand anything you are trying to tell me.....I want to give you every benefit of the doubt......:thumbup:


jelun2 said:


> I would hazard a guess that if you spent five minutes or so thinking about the various meanings of that phrase you could figure it out all by yourself. If you are unable to, please, get back to me and I will try to explain it for you in very simple terms.


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

What is it that I am supposed to be figuring out?


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## silvercharms (Mar 29, 2011)

Here's an interesting question: Why don't you folks impeach Obama? Seems there's plenty of cause..


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## tatesgirl (Mar 27, 2011)

I see that there's already 21 pages of this useless chatter. Include me out!


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Nussa said:


> So, you say that Peace is a political issue.
> I would hate to think everyone would have to pick a side on a political issue to know what peace is.
> 
> I see peace in my family & friends, I see peace in my church....I see peace in my neighbors...peace is everywhere. And I didn't have to protest with anyone to find it. You just have to look in the right places.
> ...


We all have our methods. Yours sounds like it works for you. Not everyon is an on the lines person and that is fine.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Leland Sandy said:


> I stood on a bridge over the expressway in rush hour before a presidential election and proudly held up a sign for the person I supported. I had had a root canal that afternoon. I felt great about my activism and still do. I am totally sure that some of you wouldn't have supported this person which is the purpose of voting. I most surely have not supported the people that some of you may have chosen. My mother would have said "Well, that's what makes a horse-race!!"


It is important to influence the horse race. Not everyone's cup of tea, but we should never hold back just because someone might not approve.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Hipoldfarmgirl said:


> When we were about to enter Iraq my pacifist sister in Calif. was out marching against the war, seems like standing on the Golden gate Bridge or somthing. I felt like she would not be listened to and she was not. Did not stop Bushy. I never dreamed that my little middle school son would get enticed and sucked into that war and nearly killed. I nearly died going thru that experience.
> I decided maybe a quilt would get a message across. This summer I made a quilt about the PTSD of my son and of myself due to the Iraq war. Then along came the Modern Quilt Challenge put out by the American Quilter's Society. My quilt will be mailed today to Paducah, Ky to join 112 other modern quilts which will be showcased at the huge quilt show in Des Moines Iowa October 2-5, 2013. If so chosen, it will stay on the travel circuit for one solid year and go to seven major quilt shows.


I hope it continues with the quilt show as I would love to see it in its glory. Keep us posted on status.

Hoping also that you and your son recover and find solace.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

damemary said:


> This is called "General Chit Chat." Threads of a political nature belong here.


You have a thread, LOLL where you hold political discussions. However, the members attacking those not rabidly Left of center in this discussion would be attacked there too. Why not raise topics like this topic there? Damemary, CheekyBlighter, Jelun2, PeaceGoddess, Alcameron, and others are part of the rabid pack that run there. I encourage all others to visit LOLL and see the drivel that has driven away others. Now they are driving away people here with their angry diatribes. They are seeking a fight. It's a theme of angry protest wherever they go.

Believe me, I am angry about most of what President Obama has done to destroy America. I could send something nasty to Michelle, "I like to vacation" Obama, but doing so is fruitless and juvenile. I prefer signing petitions, voicing my protests at Town Halls, sending emails and leaving voicemails for my state representatives, and sharing my disgust for BO wherever I can. If you want to protest physically in marches, Go For It. I wasn't raised to join riots. I was raised to handle my protests quietly and efficiently.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

silvercharms said:


> Here's an interesting question: Why don't you folks impeach Obama? Seems there's plenty of cause..


We'd love to do that. He's incompetent. But that is a long, arduous process in America. The people are always ahead of politicians in America. We have ingrained self-service in our representatives.


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## Nussa (Jul 7, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> You have a thread, LOLL where you hold political discussions. However, the members attacking those not rabidly Left of center in this discussion would be attacked there too. Why not raise topics like this topic there? Damemary, CheekyBlighter, Jelun2, PeaceGoddess, Alcameron, and others are part of the rabid pack that run there. I encourage all others to visit LOLL and see the drivel that has driven away others. Now they are driving away people here with their angry diatribes. They are seeking a fight. It's a theme of angry protest wherever they go.
> 
> Believe me, I am angry about most of what President Obama has done to destroy America. I could send something nasty to Michelle, "I like to vacation" Obama, but doing so is fruitless and juvenile. I prefer signing petitions, voicing my protests at Town Halls, sending emails and leaving voicemails for my state representatives, and sharing my disgust for BO wherever I can. If you want to protest physically in marches, Go For It. I wasn't raised to join riots. I was raised to handle my protests quietly and efficiently.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

CindyMB said:


> I read this blog everyday and the one thing I enjoy is the chit chat section where I believe any topic is up for grabs. Just because we like to knit/crochet doesn't mean we are only interested in this one thing. The chit chat section is opened up to any topic for discussion. I read peacefoddess's question and didn't think at all that she was trying to start trouble. I would hate to see this blog become one where people slash others because they are uncomfortable with the topic. If you don't like what is being posted, then skip over it and go to the next topic...it's not like there isn't plenty of them.


It is PeaceGoddess' practice to throw out an innocent question. She wants agreement with her actions and ideas, even applause for them. When someone doesn't agree or says they would have handled it differently, she PM's her like-minded friends, and they begin an attack on the poor poster. Folks this is a war for these folks. You either agree with them or are the enemy.


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## silvercharms (Mar 29, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> We'd love to do that. He's incompetent. But that is a long, arduous process in America. The people are always ahead of politicians in America. We have ingrained self-service in our representatives.


Us too! Here in Northern Ireland we also have terrorists foisted on us in a mandatory coalition. But in Britain, it's equally unbelievable the amount of corruption in politics - not much known before Tony Blair came to power.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> You have a thread, LOLL where you hold political discussions. However, the members attacking those not rabidly Left of center in this discussion would be attacked there too. Why not raise topics like this topic there? Damemary, CheekyBlighter, Jelun2, PeaceGoddess, Alcameron, and others are part of the rabid pack that run there. I encourage all others to visit LOLL and see the drivel that has driven away others. Now they are driving away people here with their angry diatribes. They are seeking a fight. It's a theme of angry protest wherever they go.
> 
> Believe me, I am angry about most of what President Obama has done to destroy America. I could send something nasty to Michelle, "I like to vacation" Obama, but doing so is fruitless and juvenile. I prefer signing petitions, voicing my protests at Town Halls, sending emails and leaving voicemails for my state representatives, and sharing my disgust for BO wherever I can. If you want to protest physically in marches, Go For It. I wasn't raised to join riots. I was raised to handle my protests quietly and efficiently.


Thank you for your input.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

RUKnitting said:


> Damemary What the world does not need is another WAR! If we go to war who's side will we be on? Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys? And Kerry vacillates back and forth when questions of boots on the ground come up? Nor will he present evidence that it was Assad. The Russians claim it was not Assad. Who do we believe? All this energy would be better spent by giving us and the bereaved relatives answers to what happened in Benghazi.
> 
> Our young American men and women should not be used to prevent o's loss of face with his red line. This is a global concern and needs to be addressed by the UN. What happened was horrific but it deserves a worldly solution.
> 
> And PS I don't believe anything this president says. And future American presidents will be judged on their merits and veracity.


I think the people who have followed Benghazi know that Obama, Clinton, and the State Department screwed up. Obama was more interested in his Vegas speech and re-election than tuning into the attack. Clinton was worried about covering the State Department's poor decision making regarding security requests from Ambassador Stevens. Rice is a flunky, who carried their lie about the cause to the American public.

Meanwhile, Stevens and his communication's officer were sodomized, mutilated, and beaten, while members of the State Department and administration watched on live feed. Stephens was carried out of the embassy by the terrorists as the photo recorded, but the public was lied to again and told he was found in a Safe Room.

The communication's officer was left for dead, and his body was recovered by the brave CIA operatives who ran to help. They returned to their CIA compound with that body, and spent nine hours fighting off militants and believing help was coming.

Stephens was still alive being tortured, burned, and his genitals removed. Later, his body was dragged through the streets and dumped by a rural road, later recovered alive by a local doctor and taken to a hospital where he died. The truth is out despite Obama's refusal to give the families the autopsy reports or the truth. Too many people were there to hide the truth.

Do you wonder why Americans don't want Obama to start another war? His judgment is faulty. His courage is non-existent unless he is fighting for his own interests. His staff choices are poor. No one with understanding of the consequences of war are involved except the military, and he has little respect for them. His National Security team is biased toward terrorism rather than against it.


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## Hipoldfarmgirl (Jun 6, 2013)

Dear Peacegoddess, 
I went back to sleep and decided I would like my quilt about Deployment to Service (that is what my daughter named it on the paperwork as she submitted it) to be mailed out on 9/11/13. That way it is exactly 12 years (of constant, expensive, deadly war) since that day 9/11/01 when my husband peacefully watched Katie Couric from our motel room in Fargo, ND then drove over to his annual sales show to hear all these people talking about planes flying into the World Trade Center. I had to ask, what in the world is the Word Trade Center, and what are the twin towers? 
At that three day sales show, early that Tuesday morning I sold one handspun handknit pair of socks to an older ND farmer for $25. Once the news was out and people knew what was going on, the sales show was worthless. Three days of people using every sales booth's t.v. if they had one as a place to congregate for the news. The local radio station's booth and the fair office (Red River Valley Fairground, Big Iron Show) became news meccas. We had our worst sales show ever. Then we heard gas would cost $6.25 a gallon for the drive home. We stopped in Iowa to visit friends and they could not have us stay overnight because they had a house full of people with rented cars trying to get home from N. Carolina to Vancouver or Alaska or somewhere with no plane flights going anywhere. I will never forget that trip... and The Big Iron Show always falls the week of 9/11 and we see the memorials on t.v. from motel rooms.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Nussa said:


> Oh......you needn't worry about it......I'm always very careful to take my time with those who tend to write long run on sentences..... I wouldn't want to misunderstand anything you are trying to tell me.....I want to give you every benefit of the doubt......:thumbup:


Since I wasn't responding to you, but to someone who assumes she is blessed, I wouldn't really be too concerned. 
I hope that clears that up. 
BTW, you were not responding to a post from me earlier. :mrgreen:


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> Since I wasn't responding to you, but to someone who assumes she is blessed, I wouldn't really be too concerned.
> I hope that clears that up.
> BTW, you were not responding to a post from me earlier. :mrgreen:


LOL. I DO assume that I am blessed. Why should that be an issue?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Why are you suggesting that anyone leave this thread? What bothers you about it? I started the Progressive Women's Forum and a bunch of people who didn't like my political views would come and fill it up with all kinds of unsavory comments and opinions about us. After a time several people on both sides of the political spectrum were kicked off of KP because Admin didn't want to deal with the fighting. All I wanted was a single place for us to gather and the people on the Tea Party side would not leave us alone. I am back on KP with Admins approval and once again have started one thread and once again the Tea Party people are doing everything they can to discourage us. Do you understand how one thread on KP in Chit Chat can arouse such angst in these people that they cannot leave us alone? They have their own home thread, D&P and there are a couple other political threads that they and other people get pretty heated on. I have heard so much talk about protecting personal liberties and protecting the constitution from the new right yet they want anyone who dares to post any ideas other than what they believe to be silenced. Personal liberty but only for them? Now another person, peacegoddess, started this thread and people from the right come out here like a bunch of bloodhounds and try to intimidate her and tell her she doesn't belong. Why? This is America and we are tired of bullies trying to tell us what we should think and where we do and don't belong. We belong right here and there is plenty of room for all of us on KP. Why can't you accept that? Why do you need to even comment in a nasty manner? No one is forcing anyone to be on a thread they don't want to be on but where do you or anyone else think you have the right to tell anyone on KP where they should or should not be. Perhaps you should take a look at your motives and acts and see what is causing you so much internal turmoil that you have to lash out here. Would you have the nerve to do that to someone you had to meet face to face and look them in the eye? It's easy to be a bully when you can do a hit and run on a blog isn't it?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> I think the people who have followed Benghazi know that Obama, Clinton, and the State Department screwed up. Obama was more interested in his Vegas speech and re-election than tuning into the attack. Clinton was worried about covering the State Department's poor decision making regarding security requests from Ambassador Stevens. Rice is a flunky, who carried their lie about the cause to the American public.
> 
> Meanwhile, Stevens and his communication's officer were sodomized, mutilated, and beaten, while members of the State Department and administration watched on live feed. Stephens was carried out of the embassy by the terrorists as the photo recorded, but the public was lied to again and told he was found in a Safe Room.
> 
> ...


I'll bet that if it were Bush, Rummy, and Cheney pushing for a strike on Syria repubs and Tea Partiers would be supporting it. It's not the idea of war you people are protesting, it's the man---President Obama. The rest of us out here are making our decisions based on something other than hatred of the president.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

damemary said:


> That is not the only site. See Denim & Pearls, Smoking and Obamacare, and others.


Why did you not mention your favorite threads, P.O.V. Liberal or L.O.L.L.?

Those are the threads with the most outrageous and evil posts.

POV Liberal was begun by CheekyBlighter who has told everyone here how we should act ladylike and nice to one another.

Everyone should read just exactly how CheekyBlighter does so by reading her back posts. She is darn right evil to those who do not agree with her.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter is a cheeky blighter and good for her. I subscribed to the Progressive Women section and it never appears on my daily email. Is it defunct?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> I see no reason for outrageous political actions. Sending used linens to the Reagans is useless and tasteless. What point did that make? They probably opened it, tossed it and said, "we'll there are crazies all over."


Exactly correct. In fact, the sender admitted a WH secretary sent the linens back. So, no one noticed nor got any 'point.' The return postage and the time and wages of the secretary and any personnel involved in handling the package was funded by the US taxpayers where as the china and cuts that set off Peacegoddess was not. So Peacegoddess negated her own argument.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

The Reagans were infamous for overspending. They got skewered in the press many times.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Sad how these people who don't like this thread can't just walk away. They are a very pervasive and destructive bunch of Tea Party folk who plant themselves all over KP chit chat threads they find objectionable and threaten and intimidate others trying to force them to leave. Freedom applies to only one group and that would be them. If they could pull it off they would have us all living in a theocracy same as the Muslim terrorists do but it would be the Christian equivalent so it would be OK. They only hate all the same "bad" people the Muslims do except they hate Muslims too. We are all going to hell to unless we are washed in the blood of Jesus. Just ask them and they will gladly tell you. They have X-ray vision and they can see everybody's soul. Now isn't that special?


Is this another example of you being nice and ladylike? I think not.

It amazes me how you are able to do a character analysis on someone you do not know and be able to accurately describe who she is, what she thinks and what political views she has.

How _ do _ you do that?


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## Hipoldfarmgirl (Jun 6, 2013)

I am very glad to hear the truth about what happened to Ambassador Stevens and co. I was again in Fargo, ND when this news story hit the t.v. and I only got bits and pieces of it. But after all, only bits and pieces were let out on the news. At least, at home I can go do some research on the internet and listen to a variety of radio stations including NPR and then I can watch CNN all day or night, plus George Stephanopoulos.
No wonder they are so quick to lock up the embassies now at the sign of any unrest anywhere. Rightfully so.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> For all that I was not fond of Mrs. Reagan I have an idea that she was not wasteful. I bet that unlike your idea Nancy Reagan gave her staff instructions to donate such items.


Peacegoddess has already posted the item in question was returned to her.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Go bless your own soul meerkat. You are a cheap huckster who runs around trying to silence any one who doesn't subscribe to your perverted Tea Party/Fake Christian beliefs. You are not going to silence anyone so go join your buddies on K&P. You are wasting your time here because we aren't going anywhere.


This is acting nice and ladylike like you say you are?


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Do you suppose for some reason, through no fault of their own, (a medical thing perhaps) some of these posters don't realize that this was over 30 years ago?



peacegoddess said:


> Thank you for your input.


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## Hipoldfarmgirl (Jun 6, 2013)

Knit Crazy, I cannot thank you enough for what you wrote here. I appreciate learning these details.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Hipoldfarmgirl said:


> Knit Crazy, I cannot thank you enough for what you wrote here. I appreciate learning these details.


It would be to your benefit to do a little research before accepting a poster's version of the facts.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> It is PeaceGoddess' practice to throw out an innocent question. She wants agreement with her actions and ideas, even applause for them. When someone doesn't agree or says they would have handled it differently, she PM's her like-minded friends, and they begin an attack on the poor poster. Folks this is a war for these folks. You either agree with them or are the enemy.


 :thumbup:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> I think the people who have followed Benghazi know that Obama, Clinton, and the State Department screwed up. Obama was more interested in his Vegas speech and re-election than tuning into the attack. Clinton was worried about covering the State Department's poor decision making regarding security requests from Ambassador Stevens. Rice is a flunky, who carried their lie about the cause to the American public.
> 
> Meanwhile, Stevens and his communication's officer were sodomized, mutilated, and beaten, while members of the State Department and administration watched on live feed. Stephens was carried out of the embassy by the terrorists as the photo recorded, but the public was lied to again and told he was found in a Safe Room.
> 
> ...


Thank you Knit Crazy for posting the truth. Not too much of that being done anymore in this present Administration.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

alcameron said:


> I'll bet that if it were Bush, Rummy, and Cheney pushing for a strike on Syria repubs and Tea Partiers would be supporting it. It's not the idea of war you people are protesting, it's the man---President Obama. The rest of us out here are making our decisions based on something other than hatred of the president.


alcameron
and that's the truth. thank you.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> Cheeky Blighter is a cheeky blighter and good for her. I subscribed to the Progressive Women section and it never appears on my daily email. Is it defunct?


Yes, both times it started up it imploded.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Interesting to observe that some busybody has her nose in each and every posting. Things are slow obvisously and bored to death.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

mzmom1 said:


> There is another section for political posts, peace goddess. It is the "Progressive Women's Forum." To subscribe and see it, click Home, then All Sections. Scroll down to it and click on Subscribe. That's all there is to it.


I _am_ subscribed to it, but it never shows up in my list of forums. I assume there's nothing going on there. Besides, it's not only progressives or women who are interested in politics. What about men or Tea Party members?

BTW, what would be acceptable chit-chat if this doesn't qualify? Must we only post recipes and puppy pictures?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I _am_ subscribed to it, but it never shows up in my list of forums. I assume there's nothing going on there. Besides, it's not only progressives or women who are interested in politics. What about men or Tea Party members?
> 
> BTW, what would be acceptable chit-chat if this doesn't qualify? Must we only post recipes and puppy pictures?


The Progressive Women's forum was overrun with right-wing, nasty posters who did not want any liberal views to be expressed for fear someone might be swayed to believe them. There were several threatening posts from right-wing radicals, including one man who wrote terrible threatening diatribes. Some people were asked to leave the forum. Some right wing people are back in the guise of alter-egos. That forum was very good while it lasted.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Hipoldfarmgirl said:


> I decided maybe a quilt would get a message across. This summer I made a quilt about the PTSD of my son and of myself due to the Iraq war. Then along came the Modern Quilt Challenge put out by the American Quilter's Society. My quilt will be mailed today to Paducah, Ky to join 112 other modern quilts which will be showcased at the huge quilt show in Des Moines Iowa October 2-5, 2013. If so chosen, it will stay on the travel circuit for one solid year and go to seven major quilt shows.


This is truly a case of lemonade made from life's lemons. I'm sorry your son was harmed by his experience; I hope he has gotten effective treatment for his PTSD, though from what I've read, it isn't easy to get.

As to your next message, the answer is apparently yes, sad to say.


Hipoldfarmgirl said:


> Does this eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth stuff have to go on forever with these little boys with their chests of war toys?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

alcameron said:


> I'll bet that if it were Bush, Rummy, and Cheney pushing for a strike on Syria repubs and Tea Partiers would be supporting it. It's not the idea of war you people are protesting, it's the man---President Obama. The rest of us out here are making our decisions based on something other than hatred of the president.


How do you, like CheekyBlighter, know the minds and hearts of anyone but yourself?

I do not know one KP member who has identified his/her self as a Tea Party member nor do I care. Also, you say that no one but you and those who agree with you make decisions based on something other than hatred of our President.

You have *no* way of knowing how anyone makes a decision so stop presuming you do and making yourself the fool.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

kpg, they do eat their own don't they?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

alcameron said:


> The Progressive Women's forum was overrun with right-wing, nasty posters who did not want any liberal views to be expressed for fear someone might be swayed to believe them. There were several threatening posts from right-wing radicals, including one man who wrote terrible threatening diatribes. Some people were asked to leave the forum. Some right wing people are back in the guise of alter-egos. That forum was very good while it lasted.


The truth be damned I guess from you, huh? I've read the Progressive Women's forum(s). The group imploded by actions from those from the Left - Libs and Progs, who posted there. It was *not* overrun and ruined by right-wing posters. CheekyBlight, prior by the name LilyK and ConanO'k, destroyed her own forums and was kicked off KP by Admin.

Take responsibility for your own actions, as you were 'one' of the regulars in those forums and are still today part of the group of Liberals on KP. Members from all political parties and persuasions are welcome on KP. Only the Liberals wanted and twice began exclusive forums for themselves only. Even still, the members-only, prejudiced threads failed from within.

Anyone can go back and read the prior posts to confirm what I've posted here to be the truth. (That is for anyone interested in failed prior actions by the Liberals.)


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> The truth be damned I guess from you, huh? I've read the Progressive Women's forum(s). The group imploded by actions from those from the Left - Libs and Progs, who posted there. It was *not* overrun and ruined by right-wing posters. CheekyBlight, prior by the name LilyK and ConanO'k, destroyed her own forums and was kicked off KP by Admin.
> 
> Take responsibility for your own actions, as you were 'one' of the regulars in those forums and are still today part of the group of Liberals on KP. Members from all political parties and persuasions are welcome on KP. Only the Liberals wanted and twice began exclusive forums for themselves only. Even still, the members-only, prejudiced threads failed from within.
> 
> Anyone can go back and read the prior posts to confirm what I've posted here to be the truth. (That is for anyone interested in failed prior actions by the Liberals.)


Don't forget all the nasty PM's we got that basically told us ..........get off my thread (because we were 'racists' for disagreeing with her) or I will report you to the administration...........


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> You have a thread, LOLL where you hold political discussions.


What is LOLL? I might be interested if I knew what it stood for. But I suspect it's an insult, which would be right up your alley.



> Believe me, I am angry about most of what President Obama has done to destroy America. I could send something nasty to Michelle, "I like to vacation" Obama, but doing so is fruitless and juvenile.


According to USA Today:

"*At the same point in Bush's presidency*, the 43rd president had spent *367* days at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, and his parent's compound at Kennebunkport, Maine, according to a count by CBS News reporter Mark Knoller. Obama, who doesn't own a vacation home, has spent a total of *92* days of his presidency on vacation, according to Knoller."

Did you complain about the additional 265 days (367-92) vacation days Bush took? I suspect that if Obama _never_ went on vacation, you'd complain about that, too - look how much harm he does when he's at work.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Exactly correct. In fact, the sender admitted a WH secretary sent the linens back. So, no one noticed nor got any 'point.' The return postage and the time and wages of the secretary and any personnel involved in handling the package was funded by the US taxpayers where as the china and cuts that set off Peacegoddess was not. So Peacegoddess negated her own argument.


Thank you for your input.


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## sylviaelliott (May 11, 2011)

5mmdpns said:


> You know, there used to be a time when the religion and politics were kept out of this site. Administration was changed and now everything but pornography is allowed here at the Knitting Paradise. Perhaps this needs to be brought up to Administration. The religion and politics does sew discord and promote hatred between people. A knitting and crochet site is not the place for this to happen.


here, here


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Hipoldfarmgirl said:


> Dear Peacegoddess,
> I went back to sleep and decided I would like my quilt about Deployment to Service (that is what my daughter named it on the paperwork as she submitted it) to be mailed out on 9/11/13. That way it is exactly 12 years (of constant, expensive, deadly war) since that day 9/11/01 when my husband peacefully watched Katie Couric from our motel room in Fargo, ND then drove over to his annual sales show to hear all these people talking about planes flying into the World Trade Center. I had to ask, what in the world is the Word Trade Center, and what are the twin towers?
> At that three day sales show, early that Tuesday morning I sold one handspun handknit pair of socks to an older ND farmer for $25. Once the news was out and people knew what was going on, the sales show was worthless. Three days of people using every sales booth's t.v. if they had one as a place to congregate for the news. The local radio station's booth and the fair office (Red River Valley Fairground, Big Iron Show) became news meccas. We had our worst sales show ever. Then we heard gas would cost $6.25 a gallon for the drive home. We stopped in Iowa to visit friends and they could not have us stay overnight because they had a house full of people with rented cars trying to get home from N. Carolina to Vancouver or Alaska or somewhere with no plane flights going anywhere. I will never forget that trip... and The Big Iron Show always falls the week of 9/11 and we see the memorials on t.v. from motel rooms.


Hipoldfarmgirl,

A great idea to post it on the 12 year mark.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Interesting reading.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Hipoldfarmgirl wrote:
Knit Crazy, I cannot thank you enough for what you wrote here. I appreciate learning these details.



alcameron said:


> It would be to your benefit to do a little research before accepting a poster's version of the facts.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

The "details" seem to have appeared only in rabidly right-wing venues.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> The truth be damned I guess from you, huh? I've read the Progressive Women's forum(s). The group imploded by actions from those from the Left - Libs and Progs, who posted there. It was *not* overrun and ruined by right-wing posters. CheekyBlight, prior by the name LilyK and ConanO'k, destroyed her own forums and was kicked off KP by Admin.
> 
> Take responsibility for your own actions, as you were 'one' of the regulars in those forums and are still today part of the group of Liberals on KP. Members from all political parties and persuasions are welcome on KP. Only the Liberals wanted and twice began exclusive forums for themselves only. Even still, the members-only, prejudiced threads failed from within.
> 
> Anyone can go back and read the prior posts to confirm what I've posted here to be the truth. (That is for anyone interested in failed prior actions by the Liberals.)


Thank you for your input.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

cakes said:


> way I was reared. "sit over there, read your book and i dont want to hear a word from you all afternoon". at just on 80 I see no reason to do otherwise.


cakes
I hope that you had more freedom as an adult. I understand wanting Peace now.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> The Progressive Women's forum was overrun with right-wing, nasty posters who did not want any liberal views to be expressed for fear someone might be swayed to believe them. There were several threatening posts from right-wing radicals, including one man who wrote terrible threatening diatribes. Some people were asked to leave the forum. Some right wing people are back in the guise of alter-egos. That forum was very good while it lasted.


Thanks for the info. What is it with those people that they have to try to crush any difference of opinion?


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> alcameron
> and that's the truth. thank you.


alcameron wrote:
I'll bet that if it were Bush, Rummy, and Cheney pushing for a strike on Syria repubs and Tea Partiers would be supporting it. It's not the idea of war you people are protesting, it's the man---President Obama. The rest of us out here are making our decisions based on something other than hatred of the president.

You ladies have it nailed. Just like the majority in the House of Representatives and the minority leader in the US Senate that is what the opposition has been all about from day one.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> How do you, like CheekyBlighter, know the minds and hearts of anyone but yourself?
> 
> You have *no* way of knowing how anyone makes a decision so stop presuming you do and making yourself the fool.


Ask KnitCrazy how she knows what PMs people send to their "like-minded" friends.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Ask KnitCrazy how she knows what PMs people send to their "like-minded" friends.


Don't have to look far to tell how "those people" think. Their hatred of the president is there in black and white in all their posts. I'll spare you quoting them.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

sylviaelliott said:


> here, here


5mmdpns wrote:
You know, there used to be a time when the religion and politics were kept out of this site. Administration was changed and now everything but pornography is allowed here at the Knitting Paradise. Perhaps this needs to be brought up to Administration. The religion and politics does sew discord and promote hatred between people. A knitting and crochet site is not the place for this to happen.

I was quite surprised when I returned to KP and found that religion and politics are now allowed. As vocal as I am I have other sites to share my opinions on if need be. I am not sure that it is a great thing here, as long as it is permissible, though, I will be speaking my mind.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Thanks for the info. What is it with those people that they have to try to crush any difference of opinion?


What is with the other people having to have 4 or 5 identities to voice their opinion? I guess they think if they have a lot on their side it makes them more creditable . I thank myself for my input. :XD:


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Do not engage, please.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

I want to explain what really happen to the Progressive sites.
But first I do want to say Peace Godess has every right to open this site and it is interesting to see how everyone stood up to what they believe by protesting .

Now as too Cheeky and Alcameron post. Cheeky went under the name of LilyK.at the time of the progressive women's site. It disappeared when Lily blames some of her own people for things they did not do.

She then with one of the people she complained about went on a site which was started by LoveofLake. The name of site was Wreaths for soldier's graves. A round Christmas time Loveofthelake possted site to ask people to think about sending money to put wreaths on graves of soldiers.

Lilyk/Cheeky and Ingried decide to start posting political on this site to. Loveoflake ask them not to. They continue doing this.This is where they were told to leave, as was Loveoflake. This is why Loveoflake was also removed,as ever time they did post about poltic Loveoflake reported them, as she told them she would do. She did nothing more then ask them to not make it political.

So Cheeky/Lilyk and her group on the left started POV, they are also on smoking and Obama Care, as are we on the right. they also have a site remembering Martin L. King. There are I am sure some others.
I am not claiming as she has they are innocent I am not either.

Cheeky/lilyk ask us on our site Denims,Pearls,and Prada's not to come on their POV. I have posted on there. Why because one of their ladies sent a PM to DonnaK, if any of you know her. Donnak has been kind on every site she has posted on. This so call lady on the left was just nasty in her pm accusing Donnak of things that were not true. .
I take blame for that.

She is not the saint nor are the other's on the left innocent. They find it necessary to come on DPandP to call names too. 

As I said I am not innocent either so I do take blame too.
I do like to tell the truth I hate lieing as they know well.

Know I am going to leave this site as I have said it is wonderful that Peacegoddess has started this site and i have enjoyed reading what others have done. I will continue reading it. But will not post again. I would hope that others would still post what they did to protest what they saw as wrong.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

In the past two days I have read posts from wo/men who made individual efforts to influence a political issue and from wo/men who were part of larger groups such as the civil rights movement, the women's movement and for peace. The issues were local, state wide, national, and international in scope. I laughed and cried, but i always felt every effort was worthy and effective, because one person can make some difference in the world. Look up Margaret Mead she said it much better. Thanks to all who have made the effort and may we continue strong while seeking peace and justice.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> I want to explain what really happen to the Progressive sites.
> But first I do want to say Peace Godess has every right to open this site and it is interesting to see how everyone stood up to what they believe by protesting .
> 
> Now as too Cheeky and Alcameron post. Cheeky went under the name of LilyK.at the time of the progressive women's site. It disappeared when Lily blames some of her own people for things they did not do.
> ...


Theyarnlady, You were very gracious, thank you.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> What is with the other people having to have 4 or 5 identities to voice their opinion? I guess they think if they have a lot on their side it makes them more creditable . I thank myself for my input. :XD:


What does one thing have to do with the other? Our Constitution guarantees us freedom of expression; it doesn't require us to use only one name to do it, except in the voting booth.

And thank you for your input - now you are doubly thanked.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Maybe we could have a thread that educated people as to the difference between thread, site, post, etc? Goodness, I have a hard time thinking that someone who has reported me to admin for using an acronym is promising to leave KP and then experience the letdown of finding that the lovely little soul is only leaving the thread. 

]


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Right as rain, Purl. L OLL stands for League of Lady Liberals. POV (Point of View) Liberal is also good. Hope to see you. But this thread was also started for us.... and I hope you'll keep posting. It's important to show we're here and won't be stepped on.



Poor Purl said:


> According to USA Today:
> 
> "*At the same point in Bush's presidency*, the 43rd president had spent *367* days at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, and his parent's compound at Kennebunkport, Maine, according to a count by CBS News reporter Mark Knoller. Obama, who doesn't own a vacation home, has spent a total of *92* days of his presidency on vacation, according to Knoller."
> 
> Did you complain about the additional 265 days (367-92) vacation days Bush took? I suspect that if Obama _never_ went on vacation, you'd complain about that, too - look how much harm he does when he's at work.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

there, there



sylviaelliott said:


> here, here


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No FACT has ever been learned from the usual subjects. They just logon to their right-wing venues and cut and paste.



Poor Purl said:


> Hipoldfarmgirl wrote:
> Knit Crazy, I cannot thank you enough for what you wrote here. I appreciate learning these details.
> 
> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
> ...


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## calisuzi (Apr 1, 2013)

Haven't done anything outrageous, love what you did though. Do tend to flap my jaws a lot, a real lot. Figure if you don't stand up for what you believe you don't stand for anything at all. My liberal views are not much in fashion these days and I do tend to ruffle feathers, tons of feathers and I have no intention of stopping.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Ask KnitCrazy how she knows what PMs people send to their "like-minded" friends.


She knows because they have been posted on a public forum for anyone who wishes to read them.

I, myself, was on the receiving end of an evil and disgusting PM from CheekyBlighter which I posted publicly for all to read who cared to.

Transparency trumps all.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Believe me, you don' t want to know.



Poor Purl said:


> Thanks for the info. What is it with those people that they have to try to crush any difference of opinion?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Which brings us back to the obvious question: Why such vitriol? I can only think of one answer.



jelun2 said:


> alcameron wrote:
> I'll bet that if it were Bush, Rummy, and Cheney pushing for a strike on Syria repubs and Tea Partiers would be supporting it. It's not the idea of war you people are protesting, it's the man---President Obama. The rest of us out here are making our decisions based on something other than hatred of the president.
> 
> You ladies have it nailed. Just like the majority in the House of Representatives and the minority leader in the US Senate that is what the opposition has been all about from day one.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Thanks for the info. What is it with those people that they have to try to crush any difference of opinion?


The Ladies Of the Liberal Left (L.O.L.L.) don't want to hear from anyone with a difference of opinion from their own - you know that as you've posted among them, Poor Purl.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

alcameron said:


> Don't have to look far to tell how "those people" think. Their hatred of the president is there in black and white in all their posts. I'll spare you quoting them.


Thank you for your input. :-D


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you so much for posing the questions and making us think.



peacegoddess said:


> In the past two days I have read posts from wo/men who made individual efforts to influence a political issue and from wo/men who were part of larger groups such as the civil rights movement, the women's movement and for peace. The issues were local, state wide, national, and international in scope. I laughed and cried, but i always felt every effort was worthy and effective, because one person can make some difference in the world. Look up Margaret Mead she said it much better. Thanks to all who have made the effort and may we continue strong while seeking peace and justice.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

calisuzi said:


> Haven't done anything outrageous, love what you did though. Do tend to flap my jaws a lot, a real lot. Figure if you don't stand up for what you believe you don't stand for anything at all. My liberal views are not much in fashion these days and I do tend to ruffle feathers, tons of feathers and I have no intention of stopping.


CaliSuzi,

The saying "well behaved women seldom make history" may very well apply here to the women who have ruffled feathers. Speaking out is just as effective as an act. Carry on!


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> What is with the other people having to have 4 or 5 identities to voice their opinion? I guess they think if they have a lot on their side it makes them more creditable . I thank myself for my input. :XD:


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :XD: :XD: :XD:

Looks like that is the only way they seem to have a voice and numbers.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Good Girl. Me too.



calisuzi said:


> Haven't done anything outrageous, love what you did though. Do tend to flap my jaws a lot, a real lot. Figure if you don't stand up for what you believe you don't stand for anything at all. My liberal views are not much in fashion these days and I do tend to ruffle feathers, tons of feathers and I have no intention of stopping.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

damemary said:


> But this thread was also started for us.... and I hope you'll keep posting. It's important to show we're here and won't be stepped on.


Started for 'us' Liberals? What a joke. The OP made an open-ended question about what is the most politically outrageous act anyone has done. No mention of 'Liberal' posters only was mentioned.

You just love to post lies because you fail to comprehend that which you read.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

jelun2 said:


> alcameron wrote:
> I'll bet that if it were Bush, Rummy, and Cheney pushing for a strike on Syria repubs and Tea Partiers would be supporting it. It's not the idea of war you people are protesting, it's the man---President Obama. The rest of us out here are making our decisions based on something other than hatred of the president.
> 
> You ladies have it nailed. Just like the majority in the House of Representatives and the minority leader in the US Senate that is what the opposition has been all about from day one.


Wrong

No one "HATES" the president, they don't agree with his policies. Why must the libs constantly believe if you disagree with someone you hate them? Is it because that is how they view the world, victims of hate?

If Romney was the president, Benghazi would have been handled differently, not blaming YouTube videos, dismissing the deaths of 4 Americans, would have done everything in his power to get to those brave heroes. Romney never would have had drawn his red line, and then blamed the others for that stupid statement. If Romney had been president, Hillary would not have been SOS and said, (I paraphrase) That happened in the past, what difference does it make (that on my watch 4 men were murdered)?

I believe that most Americans do not support the attack on Syria because it is not in our National Interest. Not saying that what happened isn't amoral and horrific. But what about all the other areas in the world having genocide (The Congo for example), what makes Syria "special"?

I believe that the president has not made a strong enough statement to go into Syria. I believe that the American public was disgusted that he and Biden played golf on the Sunday before he went to Europe and not working on creating a coalition with other nations, bad form. I believe that his inability to work with Putin and all his condescending about his 'slouch' has hurt our relationship with Russia.

I believe, like the Israeli UN representative stated over the weekend, people are tired of hearing his speeches and want to see a decision.

So don't blame Republicans as haters, tell me what Obama has done regarding his Middle East policy there is to love.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Started for 'us' Liberals? What a joke. The OP made an open-ended question about what is the most politically outrageous act anyone has done. No mention of 'Liberal' posters only was mentioned.
> 
> You just love to post lies because you fail to comprehend that which you read.


It was started by a lib, but aren't libs supposed to be 'open minded and inclusive' ? Doesn't seem to be the case here does it?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

So we have had presidents from both sides engage our country in wars, politicians who seldom listen to our messages or respond to our rallies and demonstrations, (even though we continue to give them input etc) and we may very well be in another conflict soon. I am interested in knowing what individual and group efforts you interested KP posters may decide to take.

I, myself, have not yet gone beyond the obvious of signing petitions, an anti war rally, and calling my US Senators and Congresswoman.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> It was started by a lib, but aren't libs supposed to be 'open minded and inclusive' ? Doesn't seem to be the case here does it?


Actually, Peacegoddess, the OP, has stated she is not a Liberal. Regardless, the thread never suggested it was for "libs" only. That theory is only a figment of damemary's imagination.

Yes, I agree. The Libs do preach about universal acceptance and inclusion; yet fail to deliver same on the KP threads.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Here I am the nasty, evil woman AKA Lilly, Conan. I sent this comment to a friend. We were trying to figure out what makes the new Tea Party/GOP behave as they do. This is my take on them;

"They must be very unhappy people to have all that negative energy in them. Happy people don't behave like that. Sometimes I have thought that they see the world changing and they feel uncomfortable in it. They seem to fear change and want to hang on to the world that made sense to them. I don't think they can adapt but I could be wrong."

I invite all of you who have doubts about who is respectful and who is destructive out here to browse the political threads. The folks on the right like to point out that I have been out here under different names. It makes no difference. Many of them have also been here under different names as well. When we had our managed forum it was supposed to be a place where we could have some peace and quiet and be left alone except for "invited" people that are invited to join a managed site. We could no longer stand the daily trashing of an open thread and it was recommended we try this. The problem with a managed site is that people if they deliberately look for you on KP they can find you. These folks on the right who insist they could care less about us became very concerned as rather suddenly we had disappeared. Well this "disinterested" group promptly found us and started posting their opinions all over the site. Even though you can delete items on a managed site certain individuals made it their mission to fill up page after page with their unsolicited "opinions". The way I was raised when you go to someone's "home" uninvited and start spray painting the walls that is at the very least rude and ill mannered and at worst very twisted and perverted and all the time they quoted God and they still do as if they are battling us in some holy war. There were people of both political beliefs who were kicked off at that time. Some of these same folks were themselves out here under other names and came back to KP under new names. I have nothing to hide. When I came back we started LOLL then POV more recently. Some of our ladies have very recently started other threads. The right has what I describe as their home thread, Denim and Pearls and they go out to Smoking and Obamacare where they do battle with the ladies of the Left. They also trash LOLL and POV and now this thread. I got tired if lowering my self to what I refer to as "gutter" fighting and do not post on their "home" thread or fight with them any longer. Hate breeds hate and nothing more. It is very hard to keep quiet when people are continuously poking a stick at you only to make you upset enough to engage them. That is how I define a bully. I could be just as mean as any of them. Now they are angry with me especially one who currently goes by KPG. She knows the history of what goes on here because she has been here before and is back again the same as I am. I did send three women a PM asking them as politely as I could to please stop thrashing our thread. We just want to discuss our similar political views with each other and be left alone. They did not stop. KPG even posted the PM I sent her out on the thread in a silly attempt she thought would make me look bad. I also sent a PM to lovethelake and janeway who are followers of KPG. I did send a complaint to Admin concerning one of the three and was told by Admin to pretty much deal with it and if you don't like what they are doing ignore them or leave. I do understand Admins reply to me as they have a lot more important things to do than referee these raucous exchanges. I post on "friendly" threads now and it bothers several of them very much that I won't play the old. I accept their continued interest in me and my activities as a compliment and a badge of honor but I still wish they would just leave me alone. Except for an occasional comment I am done with them. Nothing will change them so I am doing my best to ignore them. Feel free to read all my previous posts as KPG frequently does to amuse herself. I guess she misses the good old days when we would wrestle with each other. They continue to "needle" me and all the other Liberal Ladies and some of us do fight back. I respect my friends deeply and I honor the way that they choose to interact with these people even if it differs from mine and they also respect me. That's one of the beauties of being on the left. We are a bunch of diverse people who come together with common interests and are free to disagree with each other but at the end of the day we are all still friends. I ask myself, why would anyone on the right want to destroy that. For any who have read this I invite you to check out any of these threads and you decide for yourself if you would like to interact on any or all of them and if you do I hope you have a wonderful time on any thread you are on on KP. There is plenty of room for all of us and if you see a thread you don't like but you feel compelled to comment on try to be kind. Cheeky will climb down now off her soapbox. Have a wonderful day in the KP neighborhood! Cheeky Blighter :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

jelun2 said:


> 5mmdpns wrote:
> You know, there used to be a time when the religion and politics were kept out of this site. Administration was changed and now everything but pornography is allowed here at the Knitting Paradise. Perhaps this needs to be brought up to Administration. The religion and politics does sew discord and promote hatred between people. A knitting and crochet site is not the place for this to happen.
> 
> I was quite surprised when I returned to KP and found that religion and politics are now allowed. As vocal as I am I have other sites to share my opinions on if need be. I am not sure that it is a great thing here, as long as it is permissible, though, I will be speaking my mind.


I think this is a nice departure from only reading about circular needles and wash clothes.


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## Nussa (Jul 7, 2011)

Woops!.......My bad.......didn't realize it was blessedinMO you were attempting to belittle. I'm sure she can take care of herself..... :thumbup:


jelun2 said:


> Since I wasn't responding to you, but to someone who assumes she is blessed, I wouldn't really be too concerned.
> I hope that clears that up.
> BTW, you were not responding to a post from me earlier. :mrgreen:


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

Nussa said:


> Woops!.......My bad.......didn't realize it was blessedinMO you were attempting to belittle. I'm sure she can take care of herself..... :thumbup:


LOL. thank you Nussa. She never did get back to me thought. I wonder why.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> I think this is a nice departure from only reading about circular needles and wash clothes.


I am a real political junkie/newsy. I love discussing those issues from morning to night. What I don't enjoy is the personal attacks and the attempts at cleverness that are so transparent that Obama Administration could use them to make the right wing happy. 
I try my best not to fall into the foolishness, sometimes with less success than I would like. 
I hope that you keep on reading.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

jelun2 said:


> I would hazard a guess that if you spent five minutes or so thinking about the various meanings of that phrase you could figure it out all by yourself. If you are unable to, please, get back to me and I will try to explain it for you in very simple terms.


This attitude is one of the main reasons cheeky's Progressive Women's forum imploded. Everyone on that forum thought they were right and theirs was the only way. They couldn't get along with each other, let alone one with a differing opinion. The attitudes are still the same, despite their vows.


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## Nussa (Jul 7, 2011)

blessedinMO said:


> LOL. thank you Nussa. She never did get back to me thought. I wonder why.


 :thumbup:


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

:roll:


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Having been the recipient of one of Cheeky's vicious PM's I will say what she wrote was not nice. She was also upset by the fact that one of her friends was caught dropping 'the bomb' in one of her posts before she could retract it.

Beware, if you disagree with her or Obama, you could be labeled a racist by her. So much for open mindedness, in my humble opinion.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

SQM said:


> I think this is a nice departure from only reading about circular needles and wash clothes.


Me too SQM. To each her own!


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

Sad.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

alcameron said:


> I'll bet that if it were Bush, Rummy, and Cheney pushing for a strike on Syria repubs and Tea Partiers would be supporting it. It's not the idea of war you people are protesting, it's the man---President Obama. The rest of us out here are making our decisions based on something other than hatred of the president.


When you finally take your racist blindfold off you will see it's not the man. It is his foreign policy. He has no clear cut evidence it was Assad's decision to use the chemical weapons. "I strongly believe" is not evidence. The current round of videos prove that. No one is disputing it happened, they are disputing who made the decision. Obama cannot sell the world on going to war, let alone the American people. He cannot sell to the American people that nothing else will happen after we attack. Now Syria is saying they will retaliate if attacked. Obama cannot even state who to support against Assad. I find it astonishing that you can support Obama blindly.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

SQM said:


> Cheeky Blighter is a cheeky blighter and good for her. I subscribed to the Progressive Women section and it never appears on my daily email. Is it defunct?


Yes and has been for quite some time.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> That is how I define a bully. I could be just as mean as any of them. Now they are angry with me especially one who currently goes by KPG. She knows the history of what goes on here because she has been here before and is back again the same as I am. I did send three women a PM asking them as politely as I could to please stop thrashing our thread. We just want to discuss our similar political views with each other and be left alone. They did not stop.
> 
> KPG even posted the PM I sent her out on the thread in a silly attempt she thought would make me look bad. I also sent a PM to lovethe lake and janeway who are followers of KPG. I did send a complaint to Admin concerning one of the three and was told by Admin to pretty much deal with it and if you don't like what they are doing ignore them or leave. I accept their continued interest in me and my activities as a compliment and a badge of honor. They continue to "needle" me and all the other Liberal Ladies and some of us do fight back. There is plenty of room for all of us and if you see a thread you don't like but you feel compelled to comment on try to be kind. Cheeky Blighter


I will adress you personally, as you ID'd me specifically;

You do not know me, nor do you speak for me. You will NOT trash me and my character yet you continue to attempt to do so.

Your PM was *NOT polite*; it was completely disgusting. Hence, I posted it publicly after several days of you bullying me. That way, anyone who wishes to read it may. It is still available on 'your' thread titled P.O.V. Liberal as well as your public tirade to KP readers who you called racist and hateful people.

I posted your PM to me so everyone would know of your threatening and bully tactics much as DonnieK posted an equally disgusting PM she received from your fellow lib friend, MaidInBedlam.

You are a bully and regularly threaten and attack KP posters who do not think as you do. By reading your past posts, I learned you have been doing so for years past.

I have 'no' followers nor any interest in you. I post as I wish and if someone doesn't like what I have to say, that is their prerogative. I do not, like you do, turn on them or threaten and bully them. Nor do I post lies and try to dismiss other posters by reporting them to Admin.

I stand for myself and what I post.

Again, any KP reader can read all my prior posts as they can yours and anyone's. The proof of character is in the prior posts, not in your words trying to again demean my character.

To me, you are of no consequence.


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## calisuzi (Apr 1, 2013)

And all of this has nothing to to with What is the most outrageous, etc., etc. We are all opinionated and I think that is a good thing, just allow for a difference of opinions without all the rancor, please.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Nussa said:


> :thumbup:


Love your posts and your lupines too! They are lupines?


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Hipoldfarmgirl wrote:
> Knit Crazy, I cannot thank you enough for what you wrote here. I appreciate learning these details.
> 
> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
> ...


Fee free to state your "details" on Benghazi. The right-wing venues are the only ones reporting the FACTS and not the Administration's talking points.

I find it quite telling that this administration can do an investigation and determine that Assad made the decision to use the chemical weapons with in a matter of days. The investigation for Benghazi still hasn't produced those responsible almost a year later.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Fee free to state your "details" on Benghazi. The right-wing venues are the only ones reporting the FACTS and not the Administration's talking points.
> 
> I find it quite telling that this administration can do an investigation and determine that Assad made the decision to use the chemical weapons with in a matter of days. The investigation for Benghazi still hasn't produced those responsible almost a year later.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Nussa (Jul 7, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Love your posts and your lupines too! They are lupines?


 :thumbup: Well thank you very much.....My Lupines grew very well this year....must have been due to the extra moisture we've gotten...


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## MrsMurdog (Apr 16, 2013)

I am quite ashamed to say that other than vote, I have not done any political actions. I say ashamed because I firmly believe that if you don't take action, you have no right to complain and I believe in a democracy everyone has a responsibility to contribute.

That said, as I get older, I am quite thrilled that I did not act politically when I was younger, because I now see the results of some of MY immature thinking that I did not act on, but others did. Where I was quite loving and liberal as a youngster, I am now quite cynical and conservative as an adult. 

So, when I was younger, I was too shy to act. Now I am too defeatist to act.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> This attitude is one of the main reasons cheeky's Progressive Women's forum imploded. Everyone on that forum thought they were right and theirs was the only way. They couldn't get along with each other, let alone one with a differing opinion. The attitudes are still the same, despite their vows.


 :thumbup:


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> You accessed the thread. You made the decision to read it and read it more than once and now you are unhappy with what is here. I can understand that, but why the anger and demand for me to go away? Who is demonstrating childish behavior...you or me?


Excellent question, peacegoddess. If you ever get an excellent answer, I'll be amazed..... I'm almost at the point of leaving this forum because of the folks who just can't stop trying to control everyone else and try to force them to conform to their "rules." It's like reading an enjoyable book and having others suddenly scream, "Look at me! Look at me!" If you're not interested, simply move on.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Nussa said:


> :thumbup: Well thank you very much.....My Lupines grew very well this year....must have been due to the extra moisture we've gotten...


I love them. Yours look beautiful. I planted some they were eaten down to the ground and tried again. I've been successful to save them second time around, so look forward to them again next season.


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## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

alcameron said:


> I'll bet that if it were Bush, Rummy, and Cheney pushing for a strike on Syria repubs and Tea Partiers would be supporting it. It's not the idea of war you people are protesting, it's the man---President Obama. The rest of us out here are making our decisions based on something other than hatred of the president.


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

If that is meant to be an inclusive 'you', you are wrong. I respect our President because the people elected him. I do disagree with his policy thought. What is racist about that?


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## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

Farm girl I too value Knit Crazy's posts. There is always much thought behind them and I appreciate that. Also they are devoid of emotionality.


Hipoldfarmgirl said:


> Knit Crazy, I cannot thank you enough for what you wrote here. I appreciate learning these details.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Lolly12 (Oct 10, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> Excellent question, peacegoddess. If you ever get an excellent answer, I'll be amazed..... I'm almost at the point of leaving this forum because of the folks who just can't stop trying to control everyone else and try to force them to conform to their "rules." It's like reading an enjoyable book and having others suddenly scream, "Look at me! Look at me!" If you're not interested, simply move on.


The simple fact that this is allowed on a "KNITTING FORUM" is very depressing,this forum has been a very nice outlet for me.It has turned into a children's playground.,and it makes me sad.The bickering is a huge downer,I can get that anytime in my family.Thanks for ruining this

:-(


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

I am so sorry to hear that.



MrsMurdog said:


> I am quite ashamed to say that other than vote, I have not done any political actions. I say ashamed because I firmly believe that if you don't take action, you have no right to complain and I believe in a democracy everyone has a responsibility to contribute.
> 
> That said, as I get older, I am quite thrilled that I did not act politically when I was younger, because I now see the results of some of MY immature thinking that I did not act on, but others did. Where I was quite loving and liberal as a youngster, I am now quite cynical and conservative as an adult.
> 
> So, when I was younger, I was too shy to act. Now I am too defeatist to act.


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

Lolly12 said:


> The simple fact that this is allowed on a "KNITTING FORUM" is very depressing,this forum has been a very nice outlet for me.It has turned into a children's playground.,and it makes me sad.The bickering is a huge downer,I can get that anytime in my family.Thanks for ruining this
> 
> Lolly, don't let these few people ruin your life in KP. They are in their own little world, and don't know how to contain themselves. There are better things to be had here and really nice people to cheer you on.
> 
> :-(


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## Gemini-at-Work (Jul 21, 2013)

I'm hoping that my most outrageous action is still to come.
For now I have to settle for the funnest action I ever took. We handed out hundreds of ice creams to protest a proposed anti-loitering ordinance directed at the homeless. Every one who was willing to hang out and loiter, got an ice cream. The proposal was dropped after this and many other actions and at the ridiculousness of an anti-loitering ordinance in a tourist town.
My action with the harshest consequences: protesting at the start of the Iraq war and blocking our main intersection. Got me a trial and very short jail sentence.
One action I took and could not afford to get arrested at was when I volunteered for the Red Cross in Virginia at a call center after Katrina. Cindy Sheehan was in town and at that time 2000 soldiers had been killed in Iraq. I was part of the die-in in front of the White House, but had to leave early. Only had one day off a week.
Another action I took that made a difference was suggesting a group quilt for James Byrd Jr.'s family while on a quilting newsgroup. While watching a documentary years later I saw our quilt on the wall at the family's home.
http://www.sptimes.com/News/62799/Floridian/Quilt_to_soothe_famil.shtml
Thanks for bringing up this topic, got lots of memories coming back.
As a German I believe it is my duty to speak out and take action, because I know what can happen if good people do nothing.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Lolly12

While I can understand that some of this can be very difficult to avoid if you keep a certain thread on your "watched topics" list it is quite easy to avoid it. 
Above the posting there is a section in blue with several links. On the bottom row there is one listed as "Watched Topics" and a number as and addendum. If you click on that link you will see a list of the topics you have read, any that you are tired of or offended by can be clicked "unwatch" and POOF it is gone. 
Good luck.



Lolly12 said:


> The simple fact that this is allowed on a "KNITTING FORUM" is very depressing,this forum has been a very nice outlet for me.It has turned into a children's playground.,and it makes me sad.The bickering is a huge downer,I can get that anytime in my family.Thanks for ruining this
> 
> :-(


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

I love the creativity exhibited at these actions. Keep up the good work.



marianna54 said:


> I'm hoping that my most outrageous action is still to come.
> For now I have to settle for the funnest action I ever took. We handed out hundreds of ice creams to protest a proposed anti-loitering ordinance directed at the homeless. Every one who was willing to hang out and loiter, got an ice cream. The proposal was dropped after this and many other actions and at the ridiculousness of an anti-loitering ordinance in a tourist town.
> My action with the harshest consequences: protesting at the start of the Iraq war and blocking our main intersection. Got me a trial and very short jail sentence.
> One action I took and could not afford to get arrested at was when I volunteered for the Red Cross in Virginia at a call center after Katrina. Cindy Sheehan was in town and at that time 2000 soldiers had been killed in Iraq. I was part of the die-in in front of the White House, but had to leave early. Only had one day off a week.
> ...


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Lolly12 said:


> The simple fact that this is allowed on a "KNITTING FORUM" is very depressing,this forum has been a very nice outlet for me.It has turned into a children's playground.,and it makes me sad.The bickering is a huge downer,I can get that anytime in my family.Thanks for ruining this
> 
> :-(


You know, peacegoddess announced in the title of her post exactly what she intended to talk about. It was there for all to see, no subterfuge, no trickery, no surprise. And it appears to me that all those who were spoiling for a fight barged into her thread to do just that, fight, and then tried to say it was she who started something. Um, how do you figure that? There is absolutely no rule that states anyone is required to read anything on the forum with a title that they don't like. There is no reason to get depressed. You KNEW what the subject was. That's a little like running into the middle of traffic and then being enraged because there were cars there.

The fact is that any topic is allowed in the section you chose to read, as long as there is no name calling, no profanity, and no rudeness. It strikes me, then, that those who weighed in only to scold and condemn what peacegoddess had to say were being extremely rude, since you had the option of 1) not opening the topic, and 2) having verified that you didn't like it, simply leaving it unread. I don't think a worldwide forum is designed as a home for a clique, ANY clique. If there isn't room for all here, what's the point? Any time anyone becomes dictatorial and strident in their opinions, they are behaving in an inappropriate manner. If some want an exclusive forum where every breath can be controlled, set one up and label it as such so we all know. Acting like an adult only where you can have your own way in all things isn't really being an adult, in my opinion.

I used to enjoy this forum, too. It was the highpoint of my day for two years. Then members began drawing lines in the sand and chewing out anyone who crossed the lines for any reason. I don't like that any better than name-calling, cursing, or any other unpleasant behavior. I can leave the topic, or I can respond. I use both techniques, depending upon the circumstances surrounding the latest ruckus. We are supposed to be granted freedom of speech in the USA; people have fought and died for that privilege, but there are those on this forum who want to take it away. If the topic upsets you, simply avoid it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Fee free to state your "details" on Benghazi. The right-wing venues are the only ones reporting the FACTS and not the Administration's talking points.
> 
> I find it quite telling that this administration can do an investigation and determine that Assad made the decision to use the chemical weapons with in a matter of days. The investigation for Benghazi still hasn't produced those responsible almost a year later.


I don't have the FACTS, as you seem to think you have. I did a search on Snopes, which rates those "FACTS" in some instances as false as in others as undetermined. I also checked Politifact, which attributes your FACTS to an anonymous chained email (not anonymous, actually; it was signed by something calling itself Dee Dee Myers, who insists she had nothing to do with it), and other investigators deny that Stevens had been mutilated or raped but died in the hospital of smoke inhalation. You could see more at 
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...email-claims-dee-dee-myers-says-amb-chris-st/ if you were really looking for facts, rather than the FACTS.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> When you finally take your racist blindfold off you will see it's not the man. It is his foreign policy. He has no clear cut evidence it was Assad's decision to use the chemical weapons. "I strongly believe" is not evidence. The current round of videos prove that. No one is disputing it happened, they are disputing who made the decision. Obama cannot sell the world on going to war, let alone the American people. He cannot sell to the American people that nothing else will happen after we attack. Now Syria is saying they will retaliate if attacked. Obama cannot even state who to support against Assad. I find it astonishing that you can support Obama blindly.


I have posted more than once that I oppose a military strike in Syria. I have never "supported Obama blindly." Don't put words in my mouth. You don't know what I think. (That's a favorite sentence of one of your own.)


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Since you mention me on a regular basis, particularly in the past couple of weeks (in addition to another KP member) and others have noticed it...I assume the sign you have posted is an admission of guilt.


What's with the personal attack?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

As a German I believe it is my duty to speak out and take action, because I know what can happen if good people do nothing.[/quote]

Thank you for this statement. People have to be hypervigilant about what the government does and must remember that the government is meant to serve us and not the other way around.

Brava to you and I bet you are a super-duper person and knitter, of course!


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

minniemo said:


> minniemo wrote:
> Forgive me if I am wrong but is there not a particular part of the forum that is specifically for Political Discussion and that is not on Chit Chat
> 
> peacegoddess wrote
> ...


What if she is not a progressive? Her comments have not struck me as being partisan; assumptions will get each and every one of us in trouble sooner or later.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Glenlady said:


> big deal !


That wasn't polite, was it?


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Lostie said:


> I once considered marching to the town hall and chaining myself to the railings until they told me why gooseberries wouldn't grow in my garden ... does that count?


Pretty sarcastic, huh?


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> Pretty sarcastic, huh?


Maybe so, but funny.


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## silvercharms (Mar 29, 2011)

Well, despite some gallant souls still trying to have a political discussion, much of the rest of the thread just goes to show the bickering, backbiting and name-calling on a personal level that has nothing to do with politics ............or wait, is that today's politics?????


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Anna3703 said:



> Oh please, stop it !!! This ia s KNITTERS' FORUM, not a political forum. Do you talk "knitting" at your political rallies??


Why are you responding to it? The title told you what it was about..... The rule about talking politics on this forum was rescinded by Admin some time ago.


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## Supreya (Oct 19, 2012)

silvercharms said:


> Well, despite some gallant souls still trying to have a political discussion, much of the rest of the thread just goes to show the bickering, backbiting and name-calling on a personal level that has nothing to do with politics ............or wait, is that today's politics?????


You been watching Australian politics again?


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## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

blessedinMO said:


> Maybe so, but funny.


I thought it was funny, not sarcastic. Actually it's hilarious. Thanks


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Peoline said:


> I think peacegoddess should remember that a peacegoddess brings peace to those in need, not to create or disturb communities such as KP.


It seems to me that peacegoddess wanted a discussion with other people about a subject that interested some of us who have been struggling to carry on some kind of a discussion without constant naysaying and interruption by others who are not interested on carrying on a discussion on the subject she posted. I don't get what you all are getting out of spoiling it for those who are interesting by screaming that you aren't. Fine, you aren't. Why do you keep interrupting to tell us that? There are any number of other posts you can read and agree with, so, what are you doing on one you don't like?


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Peoline said:


> I think peacegoddess should remember that a peacegoddess brings peace to those in need, not to create or disturb communities such as KP.


Yet you don't mind disturbing this particular community within KP.....


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

SharonM said:


> I'm not sure how sending thrift store linens.. and having the local press notified... sends ANY kind of political statement at all! What was the point? Who did it help?
> Seems to me there are more pressing causes to support than old sheets!
> Fight about health care reform - that the president and his cronies aren't required to have, but we are - and that will put hundreds of small companies out of business. In fact, I just read that HobbyLobby may close due to this health care requirement.
> Fight about abortion - pro or con.
> ...


Apparently you don't wish to discuss the topic of this thread. If you wish to discuss YOUR topic, it might be more appropriate to post your own title on your own topic instead of belittling this one.


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## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> It seems to me that peacegoddess wanted a discussion with other people about a subject that interested some of us who have been struggling to carry on some kind of a discussion without constant naysaying and interruption by others who are not interested on carrying on a discussion on the subject she posted. I don't get what you all are getting out of spoiling it for those who are interesting by screaming that you aren't. Fine, you aren't. Why do you keep interrupting to tell us that? There are any number of other posts you can read and agree with, so, what are you doing on one you don't like?


So Far I see 6 posts on this page from you and you have not added anything to the topic at hand. It appears to only be a struggle for you.


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

galinipper said:


> I thought it was funny, not sarcastic. Actually it's hilarious. Thanks


Yes. It was one of the funny highlights of today here. Loved it.


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## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

galinipper said:


> So Far I see 6 posts on this page from you and you have not added anything to the topic at hand. It appears to only be a struggle for you.


8 now


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

courier770 said:


> First of all I'm not angry, sorry if my reply came off that way. I've never believed that public protest brings about change. Generally, "silent action" works better. Not voting for a candidate who has a platform that goes against your views, or who has a history of bad acts, not purchasing goods from companies you find objectionable, supporting efforts to bring about change, etc..


You and I have a long history on the forum, courier770. I notice that whenever I make a supportive comment, you totally ignore it. On the other hand, whenever I say something you disagree with, you are extremely opinionated and hostile in your response, so yes, you do appear to be an angry person who does a considerable amount of venting. That's not a criticism in itself; folks vent here all the time. It's more that you don't seem to want to allow the same privilege to the rest of us who also don't need any help in determining our thoughts and opinions. So, if you don't wish to be a target, it would seem that you would allow all of us the same freedoms of speech that you feel are your right.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Or better yet the Korean parliament!



Supreya said:


> You been watching Australian politics again?


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

2 4 6 8 who do we appreciate?


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

JulieDarie said:


> Let's just keep it nice ladies. This is our place for peace and tranquility .I need that , no place here for politics. That's a completely different forum.


If those are your feelings and thoughts, that's fine. This particular thread could have been peaceful and tranquil if it was clearly understood that there is no rule against politics in this section of this forum, but those of us who were interested in this thread were immediately attacked by others who are, supposedly, not interested in it. What completely different forum would you banish us to?


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> It was table linens, to be exact, a lovely hand tatted lace tablecloth.
> 
> Reason? Soon after the Reagan's entered the White House, Nancy publiclly stated how the White House table linens and china were in terrible condition and she was planning on buying all new stuff. At the same time Pres. Reagan was cutting financial aid to students, food stamps, and other social servics. He had gone from doing the same things in California as Governor and the state's mentally ill and many other folks had suffered huge losses in education etc.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the explanation.


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

It boils down to intolerance. And intolerance of ANY kind is oppressive.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

JCF said:


> There is a statement (don't know who said it) that while I may not agree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it.


Exactly!


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

caat said:


> I've read through this whole discussion because I find politics interesting, and because what happens in Congress does have a direct effect on all of us in America, and often around the world. Political discussions can be interesting and thought-provoking. This one is neither.


Because?


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

I must say, peacegoddess, I admire your ability to stick to the point in the midst of all the chaos going on here :~D.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

sylviaelliott said:


> aw - come on ladies and gents - let's keep politics and religion out of this site.


When Admin reinstates the rules of keeping politics and religion off this site, we will. Since it was seen fit to rescind those rules, I think we should all abide by that decision instead of trying to make our own rules.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

5mmdpns said:


> You know, there used to be a time when the religion and politics were kept out of this site. Administration was changed and now everything but pornography is allowed here at the Knitting Paradise. Perhaps this needs to be brought up to Administration. The religion and politics does sew discord and promote hatred between people. A knitting and crochet site is not the place for this to happen.


Once again, religion and politics in and of themselves do not sow discord and promote hatred between people. People's attitudes toward them, however, can and do. If this is not an acceptable subject to be discussed, in your opinion, why did you open this topic?


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

alcameron said:


> I'll bet that if it were Bush, Rummy, and Cheney pushing for a strike on Syria repubs and Tea Partiers would be supporting it. It's not the idea of war you people are protesting, it's the man---President Obama. The rest of us out here are making our decisions based on something other than hatred of the president.


Democrats are equally against attacking Syria as Republicans. If Bush wanted war with Syria, he would have attacked when he had the Congess behind him, and maybe he should have, but he didn't. Probably because he was unwilling to stretch American lives and resources too thin.

Bush probably thought Iraq would be a good test case for attacking the Axis of Evil (Syria, Iran and North Korea). He learned quickly that Muslim terrorists are crazy and that it takes too much American blood to fight them all. He did get a Muslim-style democracy started in Iraq, but it quickly dissolved after Obama did not insist that some American troops remain for stability and to keep Iran from funneling weapons (maybe some WMDs that we want to find) to Syria.

Syria has gotten out of hand due to Obama's mismanagement. He can't wage any war, and I truly don't think he wants to. He just tripped on his lip with his red line (that's what happens when he goes off teleprompter). Then a light bulb came on and he realized he would take the blame for killing women and children in Syria when he bombed the sites he needed to bomb. Then he was paralyzed with uncertainty. Then another light bulb went on. He knew he could not recant on his stated position, but he could shift the blame for not taking action to Congress. Then, he could point a finger at them as saying "No" to an attack.

This whole attack effort is about his image. He doesn't care anything about the 120,000 people Assad has killed. He didn't raise his voice after the initial red line threat when 11 chemical weapon attacks have occurred.

The resistance to an attack by Obama is due to the fact he is not a competent leader, and he is dithering like Hamlet. There is also no expresssed national threat from Syria to the US. He has shown himself to be weak and foolish with not planning what the next step would be after be drew a red line. Attacking Syrua could start WWIII. Do we want to trigger that? I don't.

Now Obama may have been rescued by Russia with a suggestion that we don't attack if Assad turns over all his WMDs. Does anyone think Assad is honorable enough to commit honestly to that plan? Of course not. Assad is a barbarian and psychopath. He will turn over some, keep the others and use them sparingly. When will Americans stop being naive and stupid. Maybe when we get a president who isn't.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Peoline wrote:
I think peacegoddess should remember that a peacegoddess brings peace to those in need, not to create or disturb communities such as KP.


Yet you don't mind disturbing this particular community within KP.....


SAMkewel

If I remember my old college classes accurately there were conversations there concerning conflict resolution bringing peace. 
This was very helpful for those of us who ultimately worked with folks who had very little peace in their lives.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> Once again, religion and politics in and of themselves do not sow discord and promote hatred between people. People's attitudes toward them, however, can and do. If this is not an acceptable subject to be discussed, in your opinion, why did you open this topic?


PeaceGoddess opened this topic I believe. I do agree, however, that some people go way too far with their animosity.

I post on Denim & Pearls a conservative thread. We share our love of Jesus and only respond to the Left, who are mostly nonbelievers, with our belief. We didn't invite them to the thread. We don't want them there unless they are civil, and have told them so. It is our private place to talk about children, grandchildren, knitting/crochet projects, health, recipes, travel and funny personal stories. We also share our dislike for Obama and his policies.

The Left chooses to make personal, provoking attacks and taunt the members into arguments. They have their own LOLL thread, and we read it sometimes, but we don't start attacks or taunt them into arguments. I never have posted there as they are usually uncivil even among themselves.

I suggest that everyone leave a thread if you can't be civil. I don't mind reading ideas that differ from mine, but when attacks start on me or others I know haven't initiated it, I lose all respect for the poster. I might point out the flaws in logic in a post. But, I will do it forcefully if the originating post is uncivil.


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## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> Peoline wrote:
> I think peacegoddess should remember that a peacegoddess brings peace to those in need, not to create or disturb communities such as KP.
> 
> Yet you don't mind disturbing this particular community within KP.....
> ...


Peace does not arise from personal attacks. Peace arises from love. Choosing conflict is choosing war. Unfortunately, that seems what many like. I think you should examine what your objective is.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Marianna, Fun, fun, fun, and effective! So creative and caring.


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## momeee (Mar 22, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Democrats are equally against attacking Syria as Republicans. If Bush wanted war with Syria, he would have attacked when he had the Congess behind him, and maybe he should have, but he didn't. Probably because he was unwilling to stretch American lives and resources too thin.
> 
> Bush probably thought Iraq would be a good test case for attacking the Axis of Evil (Syria, Iran and North Korea). He learned quickly that Muslim terrorists are crazy and that it takes too much American blood to fight them all. He did get a Muslim-style democracy started in Iraq, but it quickly dissolved after Obama did not insist that some American troops remain for stability and to keep Iran from funneling weapons (maybe some WMDs that we want to find) to Syria.
> 
> ...


There is so much wrong with this administration, and with our elected official's inability to work with him, and his unwillingness to "reach across the aisle" as he promised. Every day lately, I am more convinced that if Romney had been elected we'd not be in the mess we are.

6 Ways That Romney Was Right All Along 
Russia is our "number one geopolitical foe."
1. Romney's warning that Russia is a threat was mocked by Democrats during last year's elections. Obama retorted that the "Cold War's been over for twenty years" and "the 1980s...(want) their foreign policy back." Less than a year later, Russia has defied U.S. policies multiple times and is now threatening retaliation should our military attack Syria. (The Atlantic Wire)

2. On Mali: What were seeing is a pretty dramatic reversal in the kind of hopes we had for that region. 
Last year, when Romney called attention to the rise of terrorists and insurgents in northern Mali, the comments were largely ignored by Americans, who doubted that the country would ever be a threat. However, just three months later, we found ourselves supporting France in a war to protect Mali's American-trained army. (Human Events)

3. Obamacare was (a) bad law yesterday, its (a) bad law today. 
Romney spent more time criticizing the Affordable Care Act than any other of Obama's domestic policies. Now that we're even closer to implementation of the law, the majority of Americans agree with Romney (and probably wish they'd listened to him). (ABC News)

4. I pay all the taxes that are legally required and not a dollar more.
Romney was greatly criticized for utilizing the legal loopholes of the tax code to pay as little as possible. His opponents used this to describe him as greedy and corrupt. However, this data from the Washington Post shows that most Americans would have done the same thing, if they had been in his shoes. Time has also shown that Obama has employed many of the same tactics and loopholes to pay as little as possible. As a matter of fact, Obama's charitable contributions have historically been a joke.

5. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.
In a 2008 New York Times op-ed titled "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt," the future presidential candidate argued that the only hope for saving Detroit was for the city to file bankruptcy and restructure. Instead, the Obama administration decided to issue a bail out to the city's top industries. Detroit continued to fall into oblivion, eventually having no other choice but to file bankruptcy after all.

6. There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what.
Romney's infamous "47%" quip was considered the most laughable quote of the 2012 election. His estimate of the percentage of Americans who don't pay taxes was regarded as "absurd" and extremely high. While many people pay for taxes such as the payroll and sales taxes, many publications later pointed out that the foundation of Romneys quote was mostly correct: about 47% of Americans are not required to pay income taxes each year, and many of those would never vote for someone that would work to reduce currently swelling welfare benefits.

Hindsight can be just as haunting as it is rewarding. Mitt Romney supporters are probably experiencing both of these feelings right now, and those who didnt support him are probably kicking themselves. Less than one year after the Republican candidate was defeated by President Obama, many of Romneys predictions are coming true. Most notably, Russia has proved to be not so friendly, and the U.S. government was not able to save Detroit with bail outs.

Romneys former finance director Spencer Zwick described this as a bittersweet vindication for Romney, Theres no way to say, OK, well, I didnt win the presidency but Im going to continue to fight. Theres no fighting. Theres no platform to do that. Fifty million Americans voted for the guy and yet its all for nothing.

The votes were cast, and we must live with our decision for the next 3 years. All that Romney and his supporters can hope for is that voters have learned a lesson and will apply it in the future.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Words of encouragement for those of us who sometimes feel our actions have no impact.

A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history.
Mahatma Gandhi


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> You know, peacegoddess announced in the title of her post exactly what she intended to talk about. It was there for all to see, no subterfuge, no trickery, no surprise. And it appears to me that all those who were spoiling for a fight barged into her thread to do just that, fight, and then tried to say it was she who started something. Um, how do you figure that? There is absolutely no rule that states anyone is required to read anything on the forum with a title that they don't like. There is no reason to get depressed. You KNEW what the subject was. That's a little like running into the middle of traffic and then being enraged because there were cars there.
> 
> The fact is that any topic is allowed in the section you chose to read, as long as there is no name calling, no profanity, and no rudeness. It strikes me, then, that those who weighed in only to scold and condemn what peacegoddess had to say were being extremely rude, since you had the option of 1) not opening the topic, and 2) having verified that you didn't like it, simply leaving it unread. I don't think a worldwide forum is designed as a home for a clique, ANY clique. If there isn't room for all here, what's the point? Any time anyone becomes dictatorial and strident in their opinions, they are behaving in an inappropriate manner. If some want an exclusive forum where every breath can be controlled, set one up and label it as such so we all know. Acting like an adult only where you can have your own way in all things isn't really being an adult, in my opinion.
> 
> I used to enjoy this forum, too. It was the highpoint of my day for two years. Then members began drawing lines in the sand and chewing out anyone who crossed the lines for any reason. I don't like that any better than name-calling, cursing, or any other unpleasant behavior. I can leave the topic, or I can respond. I use both techniques, depending upon the circumstances surrounding the latest ruckus. We are supposed to be granted freedom of speech in the USA; people have fought and died for that privilege, but there are those on this forum who want to take it away. If the topic upsets you, simply avoid it.


I made this very same point quite a few pages back & not one person responded to it. Why? Because my point was on target & there was nothing to argue about what I said? Many posters have said that people seem to look for ways to start an argument & I agree. The OP asked a question PERIOD. Either answer it or don't answer it. Don't read between the lines or insert what you want to be between the lines. Just answer the question or move on! Sheesh


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> Words of encouragement for those of us who sometimes feel our actions have no impact.
> 
> A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history.
> Mahatma Gandhi


He was such a wise man.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

kneonknitter said:


> I made this very same point quite a few pages back & not one person responded to it. Why? Because my point was on target & there was nothing to argue about what I said? Many posters have said that people seem to look for ways to start an argument & I agree. The OP asked a question PERIOD. Either answer it or don't answer it. Don't read between the lines or insert what you want to be between the lines. Just answer the question or move on! Sheesh


 :thumbup:  :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Peace does not arise from personal attacks. Peace arises from love. Choosing conflict is choosing war. Unfortunately, that seems what many like. I think you should examine what your objective is.


Peace does not arise from love (alone) because even tho people do not love one another, they can agree to disagree & get on with their lives without feeling the need to tell others what to do or how to do it. I love my brother but, have not spoken to him in years because I prefer to live a peaceful life & with him in my life I cannot. Live & let live.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Agreed, I have peace in my neighborhood. I don't know if I like most of the people never mind love them. We say "hi", we wave if we are in our vehicles, we ignore each other. It is very peaceful.



kneonknitter said:


> Peace does not arise from love (alone) because even tho people do not love one another, they can agree to disagree & get on with their lives without feeling the need to tell others what to do or how to do it. I love my brother but, have not spoken to him in years because I prefer to live a peaceful life & with him in my life I cannot. Live & let live.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> Words of encouragement for those of us who sometimes feel our actions have no impact.
> 
> A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history.
> Mahatma Gandhi


Gandhi was humble and non-violent. Quiet protests were his way of protesting. I see little of that in the world. Anger, violence and strife are what most including you, PeaceGoddess have proposed. If Ghandi is your model, it doesn't fit well with your proposals. If I remember right you were a proponent of more Occupy riots.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> Democrats are equally against attacking Syria as Republicans. If Bush wanted war with Syria, he would have attacked when he had the Congess behind him, and maybe he should have, but he didn't. Probably because he was unwilling to stretch American lives and resources too thin.
> 
> Bush probably thought Iraq would be a good test case for attacking the Axis of Evil (Syria, Iran and North Korea). He learned quickly that Muslim terrorists are crazy and that it takes too much American blood to fight them all. He did get a Muslim-style democracy started in Iraq, but it quickly dissolved after Obama did not insist that some American troops remain for stability and to keep Iran from funneling weapons (maybe some WMDs that we want to find) to Syria.
> 
> ...


Bravo! :thumbup:


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

I am just wondering... do we have a celebrity in our midst? Do you write for the Independent Journal Review?



momeee said:


> There is so much wrong with this administration, and with our elected official's inability to work with him, and his unwillingness to "reach across the aisle" as he promised. Every day lately, I am more convinced that if Romney had been elected we'd not be in the mess we are.
> 
> 6 Ways That Romney Was Right All Along
> Russia is our "number one geopolitical foe."
> ...


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

kneonknitter said:


> I made this very same point quite a few pages back & not one person responded to it. Why? Because my point was on target & there was nothing to argue about what I said? Many posters have said that people seem to look for ways to start an argument & I agree. The OP asked a question PERIOD. Either answer it or don't answer it. Don't read between the lines or insert what you want to be between the lines. Just answer the question or move on! Sheesh


Yes, you did. If you feel that I stepped on you, I'm sorry. I had not yet waded through the entire topic since I got a late start on the forum; I had been on forum vacation for a few days hoping things might improve. And there was that attitude again of folks dictating to other folks what they can and cannot do, say, think, or be, regardless of official forum rules. I admit I took the bait. Perfect I am not, and in my opinion, neither is any of us.

I know well how you feel about being ignored. I've been ignored more often than not for 2-1/2 years now. I did see your response after I began responding on page 1 and worked my way through, and it was worthy of being replied to. I suspect ignoring is akin to being attacked in some ways since they both hurt and both carry the message that someone is not worthy. I'm sorry that happened to you, too. I hope I have learned to read all there is first and respond later. I will certainly give it serious thought for a few days.


----------



## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> It was table linens, to be exact, a lovely hand tatted lace tablecloth.
> 
> Reason? Soon after the Reagan's entered the White House, Nancy publiclly stated how the White House table linens and china were in terrible condition and she was planning on buying all new stuff. At the same time Pres. Reagan was cutting financial aid to students, food stamps, and other social servics. He had gone from doing the same things in California as Governor and the state's mentally ill and many other folks had suffered huge losses in education etc.


So you thought the White House, which hosted dinners for the world's most important and powerful dignitaries, was the fitting place for secondhand linens? I wonder what you are doing about the obscene waste of tax dollars on Barack and Marie Antoinette Obama's endless vacations, while the rest of the country and our military suffer loss of basic services under "sequester". Why don't you send them some second hand shorts and tents and suggest they go camping on the White House lawn instead?

C'mon now... You'd do it for the Reagans!


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

kneonknitter wrote:
I made this very same point quite a few pages back & not one person responded to it. Why? Because my point was on target & there was nothing to argue about what I said? Many posters have said that people seem to look for ways to start an argument & I agree. The OP asked a question PERIOD. Either answer it or don't answer it. Don't read between the lines or insert what you want to be between the lines. Just answer the question or move on! Sheesh


Yes, you did. If you feel that I stepped on you, I'm sorry. I had not yet waded through the entire topic since I got a late start on the forum; I had been on forum vacation for a few days hoping things might improve. And there was that attitude again of folks dictating to other folks what they can and cannot do, say, think, or be, regardless of official forum rules. I admit I took the bait. Perfect I am not, and in my opinion, neither is any of us. 

I know well how you feel about being ignored. I've been ignored more often than not for 2-1/2 years now. I did see your response after I began responding on page 1 and worked my way through, and it was worthy of being replied to. I suspect ignoring is akin to being attacked in some ways since they both hurt and both carry the message that someone is not worthy. I'm sorry that happened to you, too. I hope I have learned to read all there is first and respond later. I will certainly give it serious thought for a few days.


SAMkewel


Yes, I am sorry as well. We have all been there, I think. We are making a very valid and important point and nobody responds. There are all kinds of reasons for that I think, timing mostly. 
Hope it doesn't happen again soon. You seem to be a very thoughtful person.


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I have only read a portion of this thread. I need to comment on some statements of Cheeky Blighter. I have told her the reason she does not like me is because I'm a Bible Believing Conservative Christian. I have not called her names, I have questioned many of her statements and asked for websites to back her statements. few replies. I am pro life and anti gay marriage, not because I say it is wrong, but because in the eyes of God it is wrong.
> 
> If I can make a statement for the others on the right, we do not HATE those in the gay lifestyle. If there is hate, it is in what they are doing. It is because it is an abomination in the eyes of God.
> 
> ...


Are you aware that in biblical times, there was not a word yet coined for homosexuality? The practice of prostitution and mistreatment of other human beings was what was being condemned. Are you also aware that just as some are born with Down's syndrome or autism, along with a host of other conditions, some are born as homosexuals. Since God created all, are you saying He made a major error in any of these cases? I do not profess to know the mind of God.


----------



## misenber (Feb 4, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> What is the most outrageous political statement or action you have ever done?
> 
> I have done quite a few and also my adult daughter has done a few crazy things.
> 
> I sent thrift store linens to President and Nancy Reagan and had the local news in my home to do a story on it.


I have marched in Washington many times. I am a child of the 60's and grew up in a politically active family. I applaud your actions.


----------



## misenber (Feb 4, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> What is the most outrageous political statement or action you have ever done?
> 
> I have done quite a few and also my adult daughter has done a few crazy things.
> 
> I sent thrift store linens to President and Nancy Reagan and had the local news in my home to do a story on it.


I have marched in Washington many times. I am a child of the 60's and grew up in a politically active family. I applaud your actions.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

misenber said:


> I have marched in Washington many times. I am a child of the 60's and grew up in a politically active family. I applaud your actions.


Thank you. What do you think about current situation with Obama vs. Assad?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

misenber said:


> I have marched in Washington many times. I am a child of the 60's and grew up in a politically active family. I applaud your actions.


 :thumbup: :XD: :thumbup:


----------



## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> Are you aware that in biblical times, there was not a word yet coined for homosexuality? The practice of prostitution and mistreatment of other human beings was what was being condemned. Are you also aware that just as some are born with Down's syndrome or autism, along with a host of other conditions, some are born as homosexuals. Since God created all, are you saying He made a major error in any of these cases? I do not profess to know the mind of God.


"********" is the word for homosexuals in the Bible. It also speaks of "men laying with men" and "women with women". Can it get any clearer?

Interesting that you would group homosexuality with Downs syndrome and other diseases! Actually no one is born with a sexuality, only a sex. Some men are born to be more effeminate than others, but many effeminate men have been good husbands (to women!). Sexuality is highly influenced by culture and cultural norms. This is why the "mainstreaming" and even promotion of the homosexual lifestyle is a threat to our society and future generations. We are only going to get more of it.

I love many homosexuals (lovely people!) but am grieved that they choose an aberrant sexuality. I think if most of us were honest with ourselves, it's not what we would choose for our children and grandchildren.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

"********" is the word for homosexuals in the Bible. It also speaks of "men laying with men" and "women with women". Can it get any clearer?


Someone doesn't know what sodomy is.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Interesting that you would group homosexuality with Downs syndrome and other diseases! Actually no one is born with a sexuality, only a sex. Some men are born to be more effeminate than others, but many effeminate men have been good husbands (to women!). Sexuality is highly influenced by 

Down Syndrome is NOT a disease. 

Could you send out some verification of your degrees in science? I think that just maybe you are lacking the credentials that are necessary to determine what is included in human coding.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Since you love so many homosexuals why would it be distressing to have more of it?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> So you thought the White House, which hosted dinners for the world's most important and powerful dignitaries, was the fitting place for secondhand linens? I wonder what you are doing about the obscene waste of tax dollars on Barack and Marie Antoinette Obama's endless vacations, while the rest of the country and our military suffer loss of basic services under "sequester". Why don't you send them some second hand shorts and tents and suggest they go camping on the White House lawn instead?
> 
> C'mon now... You'd do it for the Reagans!


Oh girl! :XD:


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

We aren't really giving credence to the story that gay people "choose" their sexual orientation, are we?


----------



## martina (Jun 24, 2012)

I love many homosexuals (lovely people!) but am grieved that they choose an aberrant sexuality. [/quote]

You love them but.. They choose. No they don't. They are homosexual. My two sons and their partners are gay, and I love them, and don't judge them .


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> "********" is the word for homosexuals in the Bible. It also speaks of "men laying with men" and "women with women". Can it get any clearer?
> 
> Interesting that you would group homosexuality with Downs syndrome and other diseases! Actually no one is born with a sexuality, only a sex. Some men are born to be more effeminate than others, but many effeminate men have been good husbands (to women!). Sexuality is highly influenced by culture and cultural norms. This is why the "mainstreaming" and even promotion of the homosexual lifestyle is a threat to our society and future generations. We are only going to get more of it.
> 
> I love many homosexuals (lovely people!) but am grieved that they choose an aberrant sexuality. I think if most of us were honest with ourselves, it's not what we would choose for our children and grandchildren.


It has been scientifically proven that the homosexual brain is physically different from the heterosexual brain. They do not "choose" to be homosexual. I would not have chosen that for my child because of the rejection of society and religion he suffered. He would not have chosen it for the same reasons. Do you realize how many suicides among homosexuals are the result of the attitudes of many organized religions and society in general? Do you know how many parents reject their children because they're homosexual? Do you know that the members of some religions go out of their way to send their homosexual adult children to San Francisco and support them there on the condition that they never return home? Can anyone explain exactly what they mean when they talk about the "homosexual lifestyle" or the "homosexual agenda?" Do you really believe that anyone would go through these situations by choice?

As far as no one being born with sexuality, where do you think it comes from? Did God leave the survival of His creations to chance?

Down's syndrome or autism are not diseases, per se, they are conditions, just as homosexuality is. I see them as conditions that are not subject to change or choice.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Geez Louise, it seems we are.
I am trying ever so hard to remember when I chose to love men rather than women.



alcameron said:


> We aren't really giving credence to the story that gay people "choose" their sexual orientation, are we?


----------



## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> Geez Louise, it seems we are.
> I am trying ever so hard to remember when I chose to love men rather than women.


OMG LOL.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> Are you aware that in biblical times, there was not a word yet coined for homosexuality? The practice of prostitution and mistreatment of other human beings was what was being condemned. Are you also aware that just as some are born with Down's syndrome or autism, along with a host of other conditions, some are born as homosexuals. Since God created all, are you saying He made a major error in any of these cases? I do not profess to know the mind of God.


You are wrong. ********* practiced sodomy, which is a homosexual act. Here is what Wikipedia says,

"Sodomy /ˈsɒdəmi/ is any non-penile/vaginal copulation-like act, such as oral or anal sex, or sex between a person and an animal.[1] The word is derived from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in chapters 18 and 19 of the Book of Genesis in the Bible.[1] So-called "sodomy laws" in many countries criminalized not only these behaviors, but other disfavored sexual activities as well, but in the Western world, many of these laws have been overturned, or are not routinely enforced."


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

I can't respond straightforwardly without getting myself in trouble with the potty mouth police, however, there are many women who thoroughly enjoy oral sex both giving and receiving WITH (drum roll, please) their husbands. I know this is an astounding fact. Look at your definition of sodomy now.



Knit crazy said:


> You are wrong. ********* practiced sodomy, which is a homosexual act. Here is what Wikipedia says,
> 
> "Sodomy /ˈsɒdəmi/ is any non-penile/vaginal copulation-like act, such as oral or anal sex, or sex between a person and an animal.[1] The word is derived from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in chapters 18 and 19 of the Book of Genesis in the Bible.[1] So-called "sodomy laws" in many countries criminalized not only these behaviors, but other disfavored sexual activities as well, but in the Western world, many of these laws have been overturned, or are not routinely enforced."


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

You don't know your Bible stories very well, if you think that only homosexuals were around for the whole Sodom and Gomorrah fable.


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> Yes, you did. If you feel that I stepped on you, I'm sorry. I had not yet waded through the entire topic since I got a late start on the forum; I had been on forum vacation for a few days hoping things might improve. And there was that attitude again of folks dictating to other folks what they can and cannot do, say, think, or be, regardless of official forum rules. I admit I took the bait. Perfect I am not, and in my opinion, neither is any of us.
> 
> I know well how you feel about being ignored. I've been ignored more often than not for 2-1/2 years now. I did see your response after I began responding on page 1 and worked my way through, and it was worthy of being replied to. I suspect ignoring is akin to being attacked in some ways since they both hurt and both carry the message that someone is not worthy. I'm sorry that happened to you, too. I hope I have learned to read all there is first and respond later. I will certainly give it serious thought for a few days.


Oh I wasn't complaining about being ignored in the least. I was trying to point out that because my post was one that was trying to promote peace, it was ignored & I'm sure because it wasn't promoting drama. In other words, people want drama not peace & quiet as they claim. lolol


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I still can't believe we're having this discussion. Is everyone here an adult? Does anyone here know anything about sex?


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Sewbizgirl said:


> So you thought the White House, which hosted dinners for the world's most important and powerful dignitaries, was the fitting place for secondhand linens? I wonder what you are doing about the obscene waste of tax dollars on Barack and Marie Antoinette Obama's endless vacations, while the rest of the country and our military suffer loss of basic services under "sequester". Why don't you send them some second hand shorts and tents and suggest they go camping on the White House lawn instead?
> 
> C'mon now... You'd do it for the Reagans!


It was a symbolic gesture. Of course I did not expect them to use it.

As to the Obama vacations, read up on who is expected to pay for vacations you may be surprised to find that our taxes do not pay for Presidential spouses and children's portion of vacation expenses.

For the record I did not vote for President Obama, I do not support the vast amount of his policies, I consider him a centrist closer in ideology and policy to a mainstream republican. I have been out and demonstrated against him numerous times from his inaugeration onward.

I think many people voted for him just because his is African American. Just because a man is black does not make him a brother. I feel the same about Hillary.


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> Are you aware that in biblical times, there was not a word yet coined for homosexuality? The practice of prostitution and mistreatment of other human beings was what was being condemned. Are you also aware that just as some are born with Down's syndrome or autism, along with a host of other conditions, some are born as homosexuals. Since God created all, are you saying He made a major error in any of these cases? I do not profess to know the mind of God.


Well said SAMkewel!


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

OMG? Really? Assuming that you are woman when did you decide to love men rather than women? 
If it is a choice we have all made it, right? 
Can you give us a date when you made that choice? an age? the year? highlight an event in national history? the assassination of JFK? Malcolm X, maybe? 
the adoption of Martin Luther King Day by the state of AZ?
When did you decide you were hetersexual?



blessedinMO said:


> OMG LOL.


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

damemary said:


> You are obviously in the wrong place. I'm sure someone with manners will leave graciously. If you don't leave......


We have freedom of speech in America and all of the members of KP has a Right to reply if they want. You are not in authority on KP.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Are you saying that everyone BUT damemary has freedom of speech? It certainly sounds like it.



Meerkat said:


> We have freedom of speech in America and all of the members of KP has a Right to reply if they want. You are not in authority on KP.


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> You are wrong. ********* practiced sodomy, which is a homosexual act. Here is what Wikipedia says,
> 
> "Sodomy /ˈsɒdəmi/ is any non-penile/vaginal copulation-like act, such as oral or anal sex, or sex between a person and an animal.[1] The word is derived from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in chapters 18 and 19 of the Book of Genesis in the Bible.[1] So-called "sodomy laws" in many countries criminalized not only these behaviors, but other disfavored sexual activities as well, but in the Western world, many of these laws have been overturned, or are not routinely enforced."


Why would you assume that any person on a forum for which one needs to be 18 years old does not know what sodomy is? I would suggest that the entire Book of Genesis be read, not just the verses, taken out of context, that you believe. You're absolutely correct about one thing, though, and that is the fact that it was human beings who criminalized "disfavored" sexual practices. As an aside, Wikipedia is not a particularly reliable source since anyone can change anything that they wish; it is not authoritative so much as it is a listing of what people choose to believe.


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

alcameron said:


> I still can't believe we're having this discussion. Is everyone here an adult? Does anyone here know anything about sex?


I do as I'm single, white, over 21 and sexually active. I don't need nor want a sex education from a knitting forum.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Nope, they also don't know that ALL of the sodomy laws have been struck down. <smh>



alcameron said:


> I still can't believe we're having this discussion. Is everyone here an adult? Does anyone here know anything about sex?


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> Are you saying that everyone BUT damemary has freedom of speech? It certainly sounds like it.


No, only that she does not have any authority to tell others not to reply.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> Nope, they also don't know that ALL of the sodomy laws have been struck down. <smh>


Oh my flippin' word, how long has it been since you heard ANYONE use the free, white, and over 21 line?


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> Nope, they also don't know that ALL of the sodomy laws have been struck down. <smh>


Not everywhere. Russia has issues with homosexuals.


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> It was a symbolic gesture. Of course I did not expect them to use it.
> 
> As to the Obama vacations, read up on who is expected to pay for vacations you may be surprised to find that our taxes do not pay for Presidential spouses and children's portion of vacation expenses.
> 
> ...


Will research your words about the vacations, but agree I also did not vote for Obama the 1st time nor the second time and still think he was elected simply because he was black. This Syria drama is sicking as he just wants to bomb some country before he leaves office.

Hillary is one piece of work with Banghazi. She turned her coat when they asked for help.

At least you are honest about Obama.


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> Not everywhere. Russia has issues with homosexuals.


Yes, that was on the news because of the Olympics.


----------



## Edith M (Aug 10, 2011)

I have not read beyond page 1 but I feel compelled to remind you that one of the rules of KP is to steer clear of Politics. I will respect that and not be back. Play nice please.


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> Oh my flippin' word, how long has it been since you heard ANYONE use the free, white, and over 21 line?


Sorry you are not out in the REAL world.


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> You are wrong. ********* practiced sodomy, which is a homosexual act. Here is what Wikipedia says,
> 
> "Sodomy /ˈsɒdəmi/ is any non-penile/vaginal copulation-like act, such as oral or anal sex, or sex between a person and an animal.[1] The word is derived from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in chapters 18 and 19 of the Book of Genesis in the Bible.[1] So-called "sodomy laws" in many countries criminalized not only these behaviors, but other disfavored sexual activities as well, but in the Western world, many of these laws have been overturned, or are not routinely enforced."


Michael Douglas said he got throat cancer from oral sex.


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> "********" is the word for homosexuals in the Bible. It also speaks of "men laying with men" and "women with women". Can it get any clearer?
> 
> Someone doesn't know what sodomy is.


Define it please so I'll learn your definition of that word. Maybe the modern dictionary is wrong or the Bible?


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

kneonknitter said:


> Oh I wasn't complaining about being ignored in the least. I was trying to point out that because my post was one that was trying to promote peace, it was ignored & I'm sure because it wasn't promoting drama. In other words, people want drama not peace & quiet as they claim. lolol


I think of peace and quite as a different concept from peace, as in world peace.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Not everywhere. Russia has issues with homosexuals.


Yes, they do and that is their problem.


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

damemary said:


> Not at all. Did you knit the head incorrectly?


You aren't ever nice to anyone.


----------



## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

Actually, this is better that current sit-coms any day.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

"We are not telling anyone, they will go to hell. We are not the judge. The Bible says there is one way to heaven and that is through the man Christ Jesus."


Well I am not a Christian and neither was Jesus. If he showed up today, he would be more familiar and comfortable with me, not you, who claims to know about heaven. Jews don't make a big deal about heaven; we are more concerned about what is happening now and our obligation to make the world a better place for others by doing good deeds. Just what Jesus allegedly did as a Jew.

Maybe it is time to just read about circulars and wash cloths.


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> "********" is the word for homosexuals in the Bible. It also speaks of "men laying with men" and "women with women". Can it get any clearer?
> 
> Interesting that you would group homosexuality with Downs syndrome and other diseases! Actually no one is born with a sexuality, only a sex. Some men are born to be more effeminate than others, but many effeminate men have been good husbands (to women!). Sexuality is highly influenced by culture and cultural norms. This is why the "mainstreaming" and even promotion of the homosexual lifestyle is a threat to our society and future generations. We are only going to get more of it.
> 
> I love many homosexuals (lovely people!) but am grieved that they choose an aberrant sexuality. I think if most of us were honest with ourselves, it's not what we would choose for our children and grandchildren.


Ummmmm excuse me, but, homosexuality isn't something that can be 'promoted' or used as a selling point to get someone who is not homosexual to change their sexuality. It is also not contagious because it is not a disease, a bacteria or virus. It is also something that is NOT chosen, it is given, by G-d himself, as homosexuals are born that way. They don't grow up thinking 'gee, everybody around me is heterosexual & I want to be different so I will be homosexual'. I did not choose it for my son, niece, cousin or brother in law, they are who they are. What makes you think anyone would actually choose a lifestyle that would put them in the cross hairs of people like you, who have no tolerance for others & feel that your opinion is the only opinion? As far as us 'only getting more of it' the reason we will 'get more of it' is because people are coming to recognize & accept that homosexuals are who they are & they feel safe nowadays living an open life. We will not 'get more of it' because it is catching. Do you think my son & his peers like the scrutiny & stigma that people like you place on them? Do you like your lifestyle? Why shouldn't my son be free to enjoy his without everyone else sticking their noses where it doesn't belong. Since you are living what you believe to be the perfect life in G-d's eyes, living as you believe he dictated I suggest that you not judge, lest you be judged. It is people with your frame of mind that has made my son's teenage & young adult years a total living hell. BTW...are you aware that statistics show that the majority of child molesters are straight men? Oh & let's not forget about all the scandals that are now coming out in the open about the years & years of sexual abuse being done to young boys are being done by G-d's supposed messengers themselves...PRIESTS. Notice how the Vatican makes it all magically go away? But, you know what? I am not angry with you for your beliefs because you are entitled to your beliefs. It is the sermonizing of your beliefs that piss me off. Know this...it was the children of people like you, who came to me, my husband & family looking for love, understanding & compassion when people like you threw their own children into the street without a care of what would happen to them. It is these kids, now happy, well adjusted adults, who call me 'Mom' & never see their bio parents ever again. Shame, Shame, Shame. Show me where in the bible it says to turn your back on your own flesh & blood! I am the one reaping the rewards of the love & respect from these kids. I am the one they share their good news with, their proud moments, their sadness. I am the one they come to for an understanding & compassionate shoulder or an ear to share their good news with & celebrate with them. I & people like me (there are thousands & thousands out there) are the winners & people like you (narrow minded & bigoted) are the clear losers.


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

jelun2 said:


> OMG? Really? Assuming that you are woman when did you decide to love men rather than women?
> If it is a choice we have all made it, right?
> Can you give us a date when you made that choice? an age? the year? highlight an event in national history? the assassination of JFK? Malcolm X, maybe?
> the adoption of Martin Luther King Day by the state of AZ?
> When did you decide you were hetersexual?


ROFLMAO!!!!!


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I still can't believe we're having this discussion. Is everyone here an adult? Does anyone here know anything about sex?


That's what I love about this forum & discussions like these!! We went from political to sexual all in one thread! LOLOLOLOL


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Why are you suggesting that anyone leave this thread? What bothers you about it? I started the Progressive Women's Forum and a bunch of people who didn't like my political views would come and fill it up with all kinds of unsavory comments and opinions about us. After a time several people on both sides of the political spectrum were kicked off of KP because Admin didn't want to deal with the fighting. All I wanted was a single place for us to gather and the people on the Tea Party side would not leave us alone. I am back on KP with Admins approval and once again have started one thread and once again the Tea Party people are doing everything they can to discourage us. Do you understand how one thread on KP in Chit Chat can arouse such angst in these people that they cannot leave us alone? They have their own home thread, D&P and there are a couple other political threads that they and other people get pretty heated on. I have heard so much talk about protecting personal liberties and protecting the constitution from the new right yet they want anyone who dares to post any ideas other than what they believe to be silenced. Personal liberty but only for them? Now another person, peacegoddess, started this thread and people from the right come out here like a bunch of bloodhounds and try to intimidate her and tell her she doesn't belong. Why? This is America and we are tired of bullies trying to tell us what we should think and where we do and don't belong. We belong right here and there is plenty of room for all of us on KP. Why can't you accept that? Why do you need to even comment in a nasty manner? No one is forcing anyone to be on a thread they don't want to be on but where do you or anyone else think you have the right to tell anyone on KP where they should or should not be. Perhaps you should take a look at your motives and acts and see what is causing you so much internal turmoil that you have to lash out here. Would you have the nerve to do that to someone you had to meet face to face and look them in the eye? It's easy to be a bully when you can do a hit and run on a blog isn't it?


Once a bully always a bully as now you are screaming foul? You were kicked off KP for bullying so admit that fact. I read that thread.


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

blessedinMO said:


> Actually, this is better that current sit-coms any day.


Very true!! Television programs today are actually intelligence insulting IMHO. This is way more entertaining & even educating.


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Edith M said:


> I have not read beyond page 1 but I feel compelled to remind you that one of the rules of KP is to steer clear of Politics. I will respect that and not be back. Play nice please.


That rule was rescinded months ago. It might be wise for all members to reread the official rules of the forum.


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> "We are not telling anyone, they will go to hell. We are not the judge. The Bible says there is one way to heaven and that is through the man Christ Jesus."
> 
> Well I am not a Christian and neither was Jesus. If he showed up today, he would be more familiar and comfortable with me, not you, who claims to know about heaven. Jews don't make a big deal about heaven; we are more concerned about what is happening now and our obligation to make the world a better place for others by doing good deeds. Just what Jesus allegedly did as a Jew.
> 
> Maybe it is time to just read about circulars and wash cloths.


SQM I totally agree with you. I firmly believe what Jesus was trying to teach was what is known today as 'reform' Judaism. He never renounced his religion nor his Jewish heritage.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Meerkat said:


> Once a bully always a bully as now you are screaming foul? You were kicked off KP for bullying so admit that fact. I read that thread.


Oh, knock it off , Janeway. You are not fooling anyone. You cry about being put down for being Native America, but under your alter ego you claim to be white. Which one is it? 
I am having a good laugh as you parade around with a new name, but the same posts as always.
Have fun! I certainly am.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> You are wrong. ********* practiced sodomy, which is a homosexual act. Here is what Wikipedia says,
> 
> "Sodomy /ˈsɒdəmi/ is any non-penile/vaginal copulation-like act, such as oral or anal sex, or sex between a person and an animal.[1] The word is derived from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in chapters 18 and 19 of the Book of Genesis in the Bible.[1] So-called "sodomy laws" in many countries criminalized not only these behaviors, but other disfavored sexual activities as well, but in the Western world, many of these laws have been overturned, or are not routinely enforced."


So what is the difference between rape and sodomy then? You kept saying the men in Benghazi were raped not sodomized. If a man does this to a woman what would you call it. What if the man were the woman's husband and she didn't want to do it? or what if she did? What if it were two married men who both wanted to do it or two married women who used one of those "pretend penises". Who is sinning and who is not? Is it only a sin if it is illegal? So many questions aren't their but I bet you can tell us everything about such matters can't you? I'm very curious to hear what the devote "Christians" believe is God's ruling on such activities. You seem very experienced and well versed in these things.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

kneonknitter said:


> Ummmmm excuse me, but, homosexuality isn't something that can be 'promoted' or used as a selling point to get someone who is not homosexual to change their sexuality. It is also not contagious because it is not a disease, a bacteria or virus. It is also something that is NOT chosen, it is given, by G-d himself, as homosexuals are born that way. They don't grow up thinking 'gee, everybody around me is heterosexual & I want to be different so I will be homosexual'. I did not choose it for my son, niece, cousin or brother in law, they are who they are. What makes you think anyone would actually choose a lifestyle that would put them in the cross hairs of people like you, who have no tolerance for others & feel that your opinion is the only opinion? As far as us 'only getting more of it' the reason we will 'get more of it' is because people are coming to recognize & accept that homosexuals are who they are & they feel safe nowadays living an open life. We will not 'get more of it' because it is catching. Do you think my son & his peers like the scrutiny & stigma that people like you place on them? Do you like your lifestyle? Why shouldn't my son be free to enjoy his without everyone else sticking their noses where it doesn't belong. Since you are living what you believe to be the perfect life in G-d's eyes, living as you believe he dictated I suggest that you not judge, lest you be judged. It is people with your frame of mind that has made my son's teenage & young adult years a total living hell. BTW...are you aware that statistics show that the majority of child molesters are straight men? Oh & let's not forget about all the scandals that are now coming out in the open about the years & years of sexual abuse being done to young boys are being done by G-d's supposed messengers themselves...PRIESTS. Notice how the Vatican makes it all magically go away? But, you know what? I am not angry with you for your beliefs because you are entitled to your beliefs. It is the sermonizing of your beliefs that piss me off. Know this...it was the children of people like you, who came to me, my husband & family looking for love, understanding & compassion when people like you threw their own children into the street without a care of what would happen to them. It is these kids, now happy, well adjusted adults, who call me 'Mom' & never see their bio parents ever again. Shame, Shame, Shame. Show me where in the bible it says to turn your back on your own flesh & blood! I am the one reaping the rewards of the love & respect from these kids. I am the one they share their good news with, their proud moments, their sadness. I am the one they come to for an understanding & compassionate shoulder or an ear to share their good news with & celebrate with them. I & people like me (there are thousands & thousands out there) are the winners & people like you (narrow minded & bigoted) are the clear losers.


Kneonknitter,

You are so eloquent! About 15 years ago I taught in a VERY conservative town in the midwest. During lunch time and study hall many teens would beg me to give them a pass so they could sit in my room and eat their lunch without hassle. We would talk in code, because you never knew who was listening. My main message to them was "You need to be who you are and be comfortable in your skin." 7 years ago I got a long distance call from one of the students asking me if I was the Ms 
_______ who had taught in _________school. I said yes and he proceeded to tell me he had finally gotten comfortable in his skin and came out of the closet. He told his parents and they were VERY unsupportive. I would like to think he might be one of your acquired children. By that time I was in SF and far from him location wise. We kept in touch for about a year. You are one of the angels.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

kneonknitter said:


> SQM I totally agree with you. I firmly believe what Jesus was trying to teach was what is known today as 'reform' Judaism. He never renounced his religion nor his Jewish heritage.


Oh so now Jesus converted? Give me a break. He was born a Jew and died a Jew and you kneonknitter and SQM are correct!
Bazinga! I bet Jesus would love Bazinga. Such a happy cheerful word!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

kneonknitter said:


> SQM I totally agree with you. I firmly believe what Jesus was trying to teach was what is known today as 'reform' Judaism. He never renounced his religion nor his Jewish heritage.


That is a misunderstanding. There was no such thing as reform Judaism until the 19th Century German Jews started to make changes to suit their lifestyle. In the time of Jesus, there were many sects that started within the Jewish community. Christianity did not spring up until many generations after Jesus died. No gospel was written during his lifetime. He was a Jew, plain and simple. Whatever style that was, he practised it with his own spin, of course.

I applaud you for your defense of homosexuality. It is sad that it needed to be stated. And to answer one poster, I would have been quite happy to have had a gay son. They are great to their moms.


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Kneonknitter,
> 
> You are so eloquent! About 15 years ago I taught in a VERY conservative town in the midwest. During lunch time and study hall many teens would beg me to give them a pass so they could sit in my room and eat their lunch without hassle. We would talk in code, because you never knew who was listening. My main message to them was "You need to be who you are and be comfortable in your skin." 7 years ago I got a long distance call from one of the students asking me if I was the Ms
> _______ who had taught in _________school. I said yes and he proceeded to tell me he had finally gotten comfortable in his skin and came out of the closet. He told his parents and they were VERY unsupportive. I would like to think he might be one of your acquired children. By that time I was in SF and far from him location wise. We kept in touch for about a year. You are one of the angels.


Well obviously your 'kids' considered you one of their angels. G-d Bless you for what you did for those kids. Our actions affect the lives of others around us.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

That was what I thought when I returned after a hiatus, Edith M, it seems that is no longer the case.



Edith M said:


> I have not read beyond page 1 but I feel compelled to remind you that one of the rules of KP is to steer clear of Politics. I will respect that and not be back. Play nice please.


----------



## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

You just can't make this stuff up, I tell you.


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> That is a misunderstanding. There was no such thing as reform Judaism until the 19th Century German Jews started to make changes to suit their lifestyle. In the time of Jesus, there were many sects that started within the Jewish community. Christianity did not spring up until many generations after Jesus died. No gospel was written during his lifetime. He was a Jew, plain and simple. Whatever style that was, he practised it with his own spin, of course.
> 
> I applaud you for your defense of homosexuality. It is sad that it needed to be stated. And to answer one poster, I would have been quite happy to have had a gay son. They are great to their moms.


SQM I didn't want to get into all of that as I was afraid it might have been too deep for some of the posters on here lol. 
I am very lucky...my gay son is also a Jew & you know what they say about Jewish sons! ROFL ROFL!


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Oh, knock it off , Janeway. You are not fooling anyone. You cry about being put down for being Native America, but under your alter ego you claim to be white. Which one is it?
> I am having a good laugh as you parade around with a new name, but the same posts as always.
> Have fun! I certainly am.


I'm not Janeway who is she? I looked at her name which says she is out in space I'm in the Midwest.

I was in MN when you indicated your pretend vacation but you were not anywhere around that place as I had people looking all over for your group. You are the one who is caught with lies.

I am white, you are black do we need to discuss our race?


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

blessedinMO said:


> You just can't make this stuff up, I tell you.


So you are in Missouri? I live in the Midwest too.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Yes, they do and that is their problem.


As if anyone here was referring to Russia. 
Blasphemy, blasphemy, blasphemy!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

kneonknitter said:


> SQM I didn't want to get into all of that as I was afraid it might have been too deep for some of the posters on here lol.
> I am very lucky...my gay son is also a Jew & you know what they say about Jewish sons! ROFL ROFL!


What does ROFL mean? Is it a knitting term? Reduce one stitch from left needle?


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

kneonknitter said:


> Well obviously your 'kids' considered you one of their angels. G-d Bless you for what you did for those kids. Our actions affect the lives of others around us.


Kneonknitter, You live in Maricopa county? How is old Joe Arpaio?


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> What does ROFL mean? Is it a knitting term? Reduce one stitch from left needle?


ROFL
Rolling On Floor Laughing

ROFLMAO
Rolling On Floor Laughing My Ass Off


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Kneonknitter, You live in Maricopa county? How is old Joe Arpaio?


As crazy as ever but, I do respect the man & his ideals. I always say that if every police commissioner in the whole country ran their jails the way he does, we would have a lot less crime. We would certainly need a lot more jails. lolol.


----------



## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

Yes ma'am. Grew up in NY, lived in So. CA last 20 years, now here. And you?


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Hi Meerkat got your note wanting me online so here I am--let the fun begin OK?

Janeway


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Ok. I am trying to resurrect a college class for Guidance Counselors and Phys. Ed teachers that I took called the Sociology of Sexuality. As I remember there is a person's sex, which is s biological and includes physical attributes such as sex chromosomes, gonads, sex hormones, internal reproductive structures, and external genitalia. 

There is a person's sexuality, which is affected by in utero by hormonal levels (I think there was more, but I can't remember), and gender identity which is far more complicated. Along with ones physical traits, gender identity is the complex interrelationship between those traits and ones internal sense of self as male, female, both taught to us, from the moment we are born. 

Sexuality, which identifies us as heterosexual, homosexuality, bi-sexual, and asexual is on a spectrum. I don't remember the scale but think it is 1-10 or 1-15. The higher you rate for heterosexual the more likely you will be heterosexual, but you could be heterosexual with a rating of 6. If you are 3 on a heterosexual scale you probably are homosexual. If you are a 1, you would likely be asexual, or not interested in sex at all. 

The whole sex structure is layered. Sex is the base. Sexuality rests on sex. Gender identity is very complex, but it rests on the other two. It is how you see yourself based on sex and sexuality and sociogical and cultural systems affect gender identity. 

For example, if you lived in Afghanistan in a tribal culture, your sexuality and gender identity would be determined by your culture. You might think about homosexuality, but the cultural and tribal pressure would prevent you acting on it. The more personal freedom you experience, the more likely you will act in the way your physical and mental psyche tells you that you must.

So, to sum it up, I don't think people choose to be gay. They only choose to be who they grew to be if society lets them. Being gay is a hard row to hoe in any society. It puts you in a minority status. You have people who shun you, misunderstand you, and hate you. 

No thinking person would choose that if they could avoid it. That's why many gay's try to force themselves to live as heterosexuals, marry and later "find themself" because the drive to live their sexuality is too strong. 

People choose how to live within any sexuality. They have a choice - live flagrantly unfaithful or as a committed partner, and that is based on their morality, but it is more than equipment and where they rate on the sexuality scale. 

Personally, I believe that a homosexual that lives their life lovingly and unselfishly is living within God's plan. Sodom and Gommorah was more about violence than who puts what where. I'd rather know that loving person than someone who cheats on their wife like Anthony Weiner.


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

blessedinMO said:


> Yes ma'am. Grew up in NY, lived in So. CA last 20 years, now here. And you?


Where in NY? I'm from Brooklyn & Queens


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

Janeway said:


> Hi Meerkat got your note wanting me online so here I am--let the fun begin OK?
> 
> Janeway


Hello gal Bratty thinks I am you so just wanted to let her know we are 2 different people. Liz


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

blessedinMO said:


> Yes ma'am. Grew up in NY, lived in So. CA last 20 years, now here. And you?


I live near ST. Louis.


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Oh, knock it off , Janeway. You are not fooling anyone. You cry about being put down for being Native America, but under your alter ego you claim to be white. Which one is it?
> I am having a good laugh as you parade around with a new name, but the same posts as always.
> Have fun! I certainly am.


Check the postings as we are both online!!!!! Funny


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> Ok. I am trying to resurrect a college class for Guidance Counselors and Phys. Ed teachers that I took called the Sociology of Sexuality. As I remember there is a person's sex, which is s biological and includes physical attributes such as sex chromosomes, gonads, sex hormones, internal reproductive structures, and external genitalia.
> 
> There is a person's sexuality, which is affected by in utero by hormonal levels (I think there was more, but I can't remember), and gender identity which is far more complicated. Along with ones physical traits, gender identity is the complex interrelationship between those traits and ones internal sense of self as male, female, both taught to us, from the moment we are born.
> 
> ...


We do agree on something. I knew it was possible.


----------



## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

kneonknitter said:


> Where in NY? I'm from Brooklyn & Queens


Long Island.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Janeway said:


> Hi Meerkat got your note wanting me online so here I am--let the fun begin OK?
> 
> Janeway


Ridiculous


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Janeway said:


> Hi Meerkat got your note wanting me online so here I am--let the fun begin OK?
> 
> Janeway


Ridiculous


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Ok. I am trying to resurrect a college class for Guidance Counselors and Phys. Ed teachers that I took called the Sociology of Sexuality. As I remember there is a person's sex, which is s biological and includes physical attributes such as sex chromosomes, gonads, sex hormones, internal reproductive structures, and external genitalia.
> 
> There is a person's sexuality, which is affected by in utero by hormonal levels (I think there was more, but I can't remember), and gender identity which is far more complicated. Along with ones physical traits, gender identity is the complex interrelationship between those traits and ones internal sense of self as male, female, both taught to us, from the moment we are born.
> 
> ...


Very nicely said & thanks for explaining what you did. My children were allowed to be 'themselves' from the time they were born. My son (the gay man) was quiet, complacent, obedient, warm, sensitive & very loving. My daughter was loud, demanding, my way or the highway, & that was in the nursery!! lol. My father in law took one look at her & turned to me & said 'Uh oh!' lolol. My other son was born a perfect mixture of his brother & sister. All 3 children are today who they were on the days of their births & I wouldn't have it any other way.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Meerkat said:


> Check the postings as we are both online!!!!! Funny


You should visit with Huckleberry = Ingried as she, too, lives in MO.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Meerkat said:


> Hello gal Bratty thinks I am you so just wanted to let her know we are 2 different people. Liz


Bratty thinks I'm someone else too!


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

blessedinMO said:


> Long Island.


What part? Had much family & friends out there. I miss NY & wish I could afford to go back.


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Meerkat said:


> Check the postings as we are both online!!!!! Funny


Bratty will say she is too busy to notice that we are both online at the same time.

Now, that I have you on here, how are you doing? I understand you don't want personal info about yourself on this or any thread so send a PM & I'll send my email address so it will be completely private.

Nice to know you.


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

Janeway said:


> Hi Meerkat got your note wanting me online so here I am--let the fun begin OK?
> 
> Janeway


What are the weapons of choice & will it be at 20 paces?


----------



## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

kneonknitter said:


> What part? Had much family & friends out there. I miss NY & wish I could afford to go back.


Grew up in Smithtown. I don't think you want to go back. It is unrecognizable.


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Ridiculous


How is this ridiculous? I'm Not Meerkat!


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

blessedinMO said:


> Grew up in Smithtown. I don't think you want to go back. It is unrecognizable.


I know. So sad. I am still in touch with the people from my childhood & many of them are still in & about Queens & the Island. In fact we have our own Facebook group dedicated to the housing project we grew up in. They post lots of pics & tell the current happenings & it more often than not, makes me cry, but, I just can't find the lifestyle just like it anywhere else, except for Las Vegas, which is the next & hopefully last destination for my son & myself.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Ridiculous


Meerkat just stated she doesn't even know Jane. They should get their stories straight.


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Ridiculous


Guessing one ridiculous was for Janeway and the next one for me right? :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :roll: :roll: :hunf: :hunf: :mrgreen:


----------



## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

True. No lifestyle like it, however this part of MO reminds me very much of upstate NY of about 30 years ago. I like it.


----------



## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Ok. I am trying to resurrect a college class for Guidance Counselors and Phys. Ed teachers that I took called the Sociology of Sexuality. As I remember there is a person's sex, which is s biological and includes physical attributes such as sex chromosomes, gonads, sex hormones, internal reproductive structures, and external genitalia.
> 
> There is a person's sexuality, which is affected by in utero by hormonal levels (I think there was more, but I can't remember), and gender identity which is far more complicated. Along with ones physical traits, gender identity is the complex interrelationship between those traits and ones internal sense of self as male, female, both taught to us, from the moment we are born.
> 
> ...


I think you've got it, by Jove, at least as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

alcameron said:


> Meerkat just stated she doesn't even know Jane. They should get their stories straight.


I went to search to find her name just for your nosey information. We have things straight just having fun with Bratty but you wanted to join! Great!


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

kneonknitter said:


> SQM I totally agree with you. I firmly believe what Jesus was trying to teach was what is known today as 'reform' Judaism. He never renounced his religion nor his Jewish heritage.


You are misguided. Jesus was born into the Jewish faith, but he was the Messiah that Jews rejected. Jews refused his teaching, clung to the law and missed the boat. That is why Jesus preached a new message. His new faith became known as Christianity.

He told us he is the Son of God, lived from the beginning of time and was greater than Abraham, Moses and the other Jewish patriarchs. Those Jews who lived before His death who worshiped God faithfully are in heaven because they were unaware of his life and message. Those who rejected him after his resurrection or those now who do not accept him, praise him, and worship him are not in heaven or going there unless they accept him as the Son of God.


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Bratty thinks I'm someone else too!


Yes maybe I'm not who I have been all my life?????? Bratty knows all????


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Meerkat said:


> Yes maybe I'm not who I have been all my life?????? Bratty knows all????


Ridiculous :XD:


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Bratty thinks I'm someone else too!


Oh, boy, I have a twin as I hope she is rich & willing to share!

This is such fun at Bratty's expense! Too good! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :roll: :roll: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :hunf:


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> You are misguided. Jesus was born into the Jewish faith, but he was the Messiah that Jews rejected. Jews refused his teaching, clung to the law and missed the boat. That is why Jesus preached a new message. His new faith became known as Christianity.
> 
> He told us he is the Son of God, lived from the beginning of time and was greater than Abraham, Moses and the other Jewish patriarchs. Those Jews who lived before His death who worshiped God faithfully are in heaven because they were unaware of his life and message. Those who rejected him after his resurrection or those now who do not accept him, praise him, and worship him are not in heaven or going there unless they accept him as the Son of God.


Jesus was both a Jew by birth (ethnic) and followed the Jewish faith. As you said, Jesus was the Messiah (Christ) the Jews foretold off. Followers of his faith are called Christians regardless of their ethnic background or faith. Jesus wasn't a follower of himself, he wasn't a Christian, he is Christ, the Lord. Pretty simple to understand.


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Sorry Meerkat, but I'm tired so going to bed--sorry but thanks for the fun as it has been enjoyable.

Until next time, take care my sweet twin.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> You are misguided. Jesus was born into the Jewish faith, but he was the Messiah that Jews rejected. Jews refused his teaching, clung to the law and missed the boat. That is why Jesus preached a new message. His new faith became known as Christianity.
> 
> He told us he is the Son of God, lived from the beginning of time and was greater than Abraham, Moses and the other Jewish patriarchs. Those Jews who lived before His death who worshiped God faithfully are in heaven because they were unaware of his life and message. Those who rejected him after his resurrection or those now who do not accept him, praise him, and worship him are not in heaven or going there unless they accept him as the Son of God.


OOO! Thanks for the good news. I would not want to reside in your version of heaven under any circumstances. I hope your knitting is better than your tolerance.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SQM, one of them claim to be bathed in the blood of Jesus.
I was wondering what that horrible stench was! Dried blood no matter who's it is just plain stinks!


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

Janeway said:


> Sorry Meerkat, but I'm tired so going to bed--sorry but thanks for the fun as it has been enjoyable.
> 
> Until next time, take care my sweet twin.


Sweet dreams twin as we had fun and will repeat this soon. Sleep tight!


----------



## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> SQM, one of them claim to be bathed in the blood of Jesus.
> I was wondering what that horrible stench was! Dried blood no matter who's it is just plain stinks!


Can't you be nice. You are slipping with your information ask Janeway she knows the truth!


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Have fun Meerkat!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

kneonknitter said:


> Very nicely said & thanks for explaining what you did. My children were allowed to be 'themselves' from the time they were born. My son (the gay man) was quiet, complacent, obedient, warm, sensitive & very loving. My daughter was loud, demanding, my way or the highway, & that was in the nursery!! lol. My father in law took one look at her & turned to me & said 'Uh oh!' lolol. My other son was born a perfect mixture of his brother & sister. All 3 children are today who they were on the days of their births & I wouldn't have it any other way.


That's great kneonknitter. I can't imagine how painful it must be for those who can't tell their parents who they really are.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Janeway said:


> Bratty will say she is too busy to notice that we are both online at the same time.
> 
> Now, that I have you on here, how are you doing? I understand you don't want personal info about yourself on this or any thread so send a PM & I'll send my email address so it will be completely private.
> 
> Nice to know you.


You have really lost it, Janie.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Jesus was both a Jew by birth (ethnic) and followed the Jewish faith. As you said, Jesus was the Messiah (Christ) the Jews foretold off. Followers of his faith are called Christians regardless of their ethnic background or faith. Jesus wasn't a follower of himself, he wasn't a Christian, he is Christ, the Lord. Pretty simple to understand.


If this thread was started to be your pulpit, it would be titled as such. You never could resist hijacking other's threads, Cheryl.
Keep your religious beliefs and share them with those who want to hear it. I haven't seen anyone in here asking for your take on Christianity. They know better.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> OOO! Thanks for the good news. I would not want to reside in your version of heaven under any circumstances. I hope your knitting is better than your tolerance.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> There is only one Heaven. Someday you will find the truth, I hope you will find it before it is to late.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Too late for what? Are you threatening me with eternal life with Jesus? Not interested. I have had my fill of Jewish men. 

Can I join up with the Bad Girls' Club here?


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## Meerkat (May 16, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> You have really lost it, Janie.


My twin has gone to bed so I'll answer for her. How has she lost anything by exposing you as you love to bully Janeway.

You think KGP is someone else too? Crazy woman there are places for women such as yourself so take a room at the nearest mental facility.

Liz or maybe I'm KGP or Crazy MIB or Alcameron? Who really knows for sure?

Santa???? Yes that is who I am.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Sewbizgirl said:


> "********" is the word for homosexuals in the Bible. It also speaks of "men laying with men" and "women with women". Can it get any clearer?
> 
> Interesting that you would group homosexuality with Downs syndrome and other diseases! Actually no one is born with a sexuality, only a sex. Some men are born to be more effeminate than others, but many effeminate men have been good husbands (to women!). Sexuality is highly influenced by culture and cultural norms. This is why the "mainstreaming" and even promotion of the homosexual lifestyle is a threat to our society and future generations. We are only going to get more of it.
> 
> I love many homosexuals (lovely people!) but am grieved that they choose an aberrant sexuality. I think if most of us were honest with ourselves, it's not what we would choose for our children and grandchildren.


Sewbizgirl
Since when is Downs Syndrome a Disease? Homosexuality is a threat to society? Really? Since when? It has existed since the beginning of Man. There is no choosing. The Bachmann's have mislead you in order to make a Buck. I call that fraud.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

According to the definition you cite, it has nothing to do with homosexuality. Heterosexual couples can - and frequently do - practice oral and anal sex.



Knit crazy said:


> You are wrong. ********* practiced sodomy, which is a homosexual act. Here is what Wikipedia says,
> 
> "Sodomy /ˈsɒdəmi/ is any non-penile/vaginal copulation-like act, such as oral or anal sex, or sex between a person and an animal.[1] The word is derived from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in chapters 18 and 19 of the Book of Genesis in the Bible.[1] So-called "sodomy laws" in many countries criminalized not only these behaviors, but other disfavored sexual activities as well, but in the Western world, many of these laws have been overturned, or are not routinely enforced."


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Meerkat said:


> My twin has gone to bed so I'll answer for her. How has she lost anything by exposing you as you love to bully Janeway.
> 
> You think KGP is someone else too? Crazy woman there are places for women such as yourself so take a room at the nearest mental facility.
> 
> ...


No, I'm Santa! There I said it, and I mean it.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> Too late for what? Are you threatening me with eternal life with Jesus? Not interested. I have had my fill of Jewish men.
> 
> Can I join up with the Bad Girls' Club here?


SQM
make yourself at home here. Plenty of bad Girls.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> According to the definition you cite, it has nothing to do with homosexuality. Heterosexual couples can - and frequently do - practice oral and anal sex.


Poor Purl
thank you for trying to teach some folks something about something they know nothing about but think they do.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Great and thanks. Will the Bad Girls help me turn the heel on my first pair of socks when I get there? I will refuse help from those who will be residing in Heaven that won't let me move in.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Do people these days still actually refer to themselves as "white, over 21" (you left out the word "free")? Would your opinion be less valid if you were not white, or not over 21?


Meerkat said:


> I do as I'm single, white, over 21 and sexually active. I don't need nor want a sex education from a knitting forum.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> No, I'm Santa! There I said it, and I mean it.


I think you transposed a couple of letters there, KPG.
Didn't you mean Satan?


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> Great and thanks. Will the Bad Girls help me turn the heel on my first pair of socks when I get there? I will refuse help from those who will be residing in Heaven that won't let me move in.


SQM
be glad to assist.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> "We are not telling anyone, they will go to hell. We are not the judge. The Bible says there is one way to heaven and that is through the man Christ Jesus."
> 
> Well I am not a Christian and neither was Jesus. If he showed up today, he would be more familiar and comfortable with me, not you, who claims to know about heaven. Jews don't make a big deal about heaven; we are more concerned about what is happening now and our obligation to make the world a better place for others by doing good deeds. Just what Jesus allegedly did as a Jew.
> 
> Maybe it is time to just read about circulars and wash cloths.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Do people these days still actually refer to themselves as "white, over 21" (you left out the word "free")? Would your opinion be less valid if you were not white, or not over 21?


Poor Purl
stick around and you shall see how important certain divisions are for some. Racism and bigotry is alive and well.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Meerkat said:


> II am white, you are black do we need to discuss our race?


But...but you're the one who brought it up.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Until that last sentence, I was prepared to give you a few :thumbup: 's; I think you did a good job at recalling that class. But you couldn't resist, at the very end, bringing in a Democrat WHO DID * NOT * CHEAT ON HIS WIFE. That's a practice far more common among Republicans. (What Weiner did was creepier than just cheating.)



Knit crazy said:


> Ok. I am trying to resurrect a college class for Guidance Counselors and Phys. Ed teachers that I took called the Sociology of Sexuality. As I remember there is a person's sex, which is s biological and includes physical attributes such as sex chromosomes, gonads, sex hormones, internal reproductive structures, and external genitalia.
> 
> There is a person's sexuality, which is affected by in utero by hormonal levels (I think there was more, but I can't remember), and gender identity which is far more complicated. Along with ones physical traits, gender identity is the complex interrelationship between those traits and ones internal sense of self as male, female, both taught to us, from the moment we are born.
> 
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

kneonknitter said:


> Where in NY? I'm from Brooklyn & Queens


Which parts of Bklyn and Queens? I'm Manhattan born and bred, but I spent a good deal of time in those two boroughs.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> OOO! Thanks for the good news. I would not want to reside in your version of heaven under any circumstances. I hope your knitting is better than your tolerance.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> But...but you're the one who brought it up.


Wow, Janeway and Meerkat certainly have a thing against black people. What a coincidence! 
Janeway is always telling people on this site that they are black. So does Meerkat. I would say 2 peas in a pod but I think it is one nut out of it's shell


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Poor Purl
> thank you for trying to teach some folks something about something they know nothing about but think they do.


I beg to differ with you. In the face of their absolute certainty that they can foretell the future, I must defer to their superior knowledge.

hahahahahahahahaha!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I beg to differ with you. In the face of their absolute certainty that they can foretell the future, I must defer to their superior knowledge.
> 
> hahahahahahahahaha!


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: good one, purl!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM, don't you know the future? When the Rapture comes, they will all be lifted up to Heaven, leaving their material possessions behind. We nonbelievers, who won't be going with them, will get to keep their cars.


SQM said:


> Great and thanks. Will the Bad Girls help me turn the heel on my first pair of socks when I get there? I will refuse help from those who will be residing in Heaven that won't let me move in.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Wow, Janeway and Meerkat certainly have a thing against black people. What a coincidence!
> Janeway is always telling people on this site that they are black. So does Meerkat. I would say 2 peas in a pod but I think it is one nut out of it's shell


I don't think they're the same. I've actually become fond of Janeway. But I like your description.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> Great and thanks. Will the Bad Girls help me turn the heel on my first pair of socks when I get there? I will refuse help from those who will be residing in Heaven that won't let me move in.


Huck is awesome at knitting socks, SQM! I have made one pair and they were tube socks.So I can't help with the heel.

It is amazing that those who feel that Heaven is guaranteed to them just because they read a bible, actually believe it. I always understood that God decides that based on your thoughts actions words, and deeds. Now most of these people turn their backs on the homeless, poor, homosexuals, and anything different from their belief. There is a name for that. It just has escaped me for now. Stay tuned


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Is this another example of you being nice and ladylike? I think not.
> 
> It amazes me how you are able to do a character analysis on someone you do not know and be able to accurately describe who she is, what she thinks and what political views she has.
> 
> How _ do _ you do that?


Well, quite.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's not for everyone, but I enjoy it too.



SQM said:


> I think this is a nice departure from only reading about circular needles and wash clothes.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

jelun2 said:


> I am a real political junkie/newsy. I love discussing those issues from morning to night. What I don't enjoy is the personal attacks and the attempts at cleverness that are so transparent that Obama Administration could use them to make the right wing happy.
> I try my best not to fall into the foolishness, sometimes with less success than I would like.
> I hope that you keep on reading.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Perhaps she logged off and didn't see your post. I know her to be consistent in replies. Also, don't you believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt sometimes?



blessedinMO said:


> LOL. thank you Nussa. She never did get back to me thought. I wonder why.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree with all Cheeky has stated. I urge you all to judge for yourself. The facts are there. If you disagree due to your political philosophy, the other threads where you may feel happiest are listed. KP offers something for everyone.



Cheeky Blighter said:


> Here I am the nasty, evil woman AKA Lilly, Conan. I sent this comment to a friend. We were trying to figure out what makes the new Tea Party/GOP behave as they do. This is my take on them;
> 
> "They must be very unhappy people to have all that negative energy in them. Happy people don't behave like that. Sometimes I have thought that they see the world changing and they feel uncomfortable in it. They seem to fear change and want to hang on to the world that made sense to them. I don't think they can adapt but I could be wrong."
> 
> I invite all of you who have doubts about who is respectful and who is destructive out here to browse the political threads. The folks on the right like to point out that I have been out here under different names. It makes no difference. Many of them have also been here under different names as well. When we had our managed forum it was supposed to be a place where we could have some peace and quiet and be left alone except for "invited" people that are invited to join a managed site. We could no longer stand the daily trashing of an open thread and it was recommended we try this. The problem with a managed site is that people if they deliberately look for you on KP they can find you. These folks on the right who insist they could care less about us became very concerned as rather suddenly we had disappeared. Well this "disinterested" group promptly found us and started posting their opinions all over the site. Even though you can delete items on a managed site certain individuals made it their mission to fill up page after page with their unsolicited "opinions". The way I was raised when you go to someone's "home" uninvited and start spray painting the walls that is at the very least rude and ill mannered and at worst very twisted and perverted and all the time they quoted God and they still do as if they are battling us in some holy war. There were people of both political beliefs who were kicked off at that time. Some of these same folks were themselves out here under other names and came back to KP under new names. I have nothing to hide. When I came back we started LOLL then POV more recently. Some of our ladies have very recently started other threads. The right has what I describe as their home thread, Denim and Pearls and they go out to Smoking and Obamacare where they do battle with the ladies of the Left. They also trash LOLL and POV and now this thread. I got tired if lowering my self to what I refer to as "gutter" fighting and do not post on their "home" thread or fight with them any longer. Hate breeds hate and nothing more. It is very hard to keep quiet when people are continuously poking a stick at you only to make you upset enough to engage them. That is how I define a bully. I could be just as mean as any of them. Now they are angry with me especially one who currently goes by KPG. She knows the history of what goes on here because she has been here before and is back again the same as I am. I did send three women a PM asking them as politely as I could to please stop thrashing our thread. We just want to discuss our similar political views with each other and be left alone. They did not stop. KPG even posted the PM I sent her out on the thread in a silly attempt she thought would make me look bad. I also sent a PM to lovethelake and janeway who are followers of KPG. I did send a complaint to Admin concerning one of the three and was told by Admin to pretty much deal with it and if you don't like what they are doing ignore them or leave. I do understand Admins reply to me as they have a lot more important things to do than referee these raucous exchanges. I post on "friendly" threads now and it bothers several of them very much that I won't play the old. I accept their continued interest in me and my activities as a compliment and a badge of honor but I still wish they would just leave me alone. Except for an occasional comment I am done with them. Nothing will change them so I am doing my best to ignore them. Feel free to read all my previous posts as KPG frequently does to amuse herself. I guess she misses the good old days when we would wrestle with each other. They continue to "needle" me and all the other Liberal Ladies and some of us do fight back. I respect my friends deeply and I honor the way that they choose to interact with these people even if it differs from mine and they also respect me. That's one of the beauties of being on the left. We are a bunch of diverse people who come together with common interests and are free to disagree with each other but at the end of the day we are all still friends. I ask myself, why would anyone on the right want to destroy that. For any who have read this I invite you to check out any of these threads and you decide for yourself if you would like to interact on any or all of them and if you do I hope you have a wonderful time on any thread you are on on KP. There is plenty of room for all of us and if you see a thread you don't like but you feel compelled to comment on try to be kind. Cheeky will climb down now off her soapbox. Have a wonderful day in the KP neighborhood! Cheeky Blighter :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

There's always time to change until you're gone for good. Don't give up.



MrsMurdog said:


> I am quite ashamed to say that other than vote, I have not done any political actions. I say ashamed because I firmly believe that if you don't take action, you have no right to complain and I believe in a democracy everyone has a responsibility to contribute.
> 
> That said, as I get older, I am quite thrilled that I did not act politically when I was younger, because I now see the results of some of MY immature thinking that I did not act on, but others did. Where I was quite loving and liberal as a youngster, I am now quite cynical and conservative as an adult.
> 
> So, when I was younger, I was too shy to act. Now I am too defeatist to act.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Hope you won't let the 'look at me's' spoil it for you. Let freedom ring.



SAMkewel said:


> Excellent question, peacegoddess. If you ever get an excellent answer, I'll be amazed..... I'm almost at the point of leaving this forum because of the folks who just can't stop trying to control everyone else and try to force them to conform to their "rules." It's like reading an enjoyable book and having others suddenly scream, "Look at me! Look at me!" If you're not interested, simply move on.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

May I suggest you avoid General Chit Chat and go to Main, and Pictures? Much to enjoy there.



Lolly12 said:


> The simple fact that this is allowed on a "KNITTING FORUM" is very depressing,this forum has been a very nice outlet for me.It has turned into a children's playground.,and it makes me sad.The bickering is a huge downer,I can get that anytime in my family.Thanks for ruining this
> 
> :-(


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Bravo. I've known others who came to protest the same way. Thanks for sharing. May you have many more years of action ahead.



marianna54 said:


> I'm hoping that my most outrageous action is still to come.
> For now I have to settle for the funnest action I ever took. We handed out hundreds of ice creams to protest a proposed anti-loitering ordinance directed at the homeless. Every one who was willing to hang out and loiter, got an ice cream. The proposal was dropped after this and many other actions and at the ridiculousness of an anti-loitering ordinance in a tourist town.
> My action with the harshest consequences: protesting at the start of the Iraq war and blocking our main intersection. Got me a trial and very short jail sentence.
> One action I took and could not afford to get arrested at was when I volunteered for the Red Cross in Virginia at a call center after Katrina. Cindy Sheehan was in town and at that time 2000 soldiers had been killed in Iraq. I was part of the die-in in front of the White House, but had to leave early. Only had one day off a week.
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Welcome. I read this thread, POV Liberal, LOLL, Main & Pictures mostly. KP has been an enjoyable resource and connection with the community at large for appx. 2 years also. I can tell from the quality of your posting that you have much to offer this Forum. Hope to read yours again soon.



SAMkewel said:


> You know, peacegoddess announced in the title of her post exactly what she intended to talk about. It was there for all to see, no subterfuge, no trickery, no surprise. And it appears to me that all those who were spoiling for a fight barged into her thread to do just that, fight, and then tried to say it was she who started something. Um, how do you figure that? There is absolutely no rule that states anyone is required to read anything on the forum with a title that they don't like. There is no reason to get depressed. You KNEW what the subject was. That's a little like running into the middle of traffic and then being enraged because there were cars there.
> 
> The fact is that any topic is allowed in the section you chose to read, as long as there is no name calling, no profanity, and no rudeness. It strikes me, then, that those who weighed in only to scold and condemn what peacegoddess had to say were being extremely rude, since you had the option of 1) not opening the topic, and 2) having verified that you didn't like it, simply leaving it unread. I don't think a worldwide forum is designed as a home for a clique, ANY clique. If there isn't room for all here, what's the point? Any time anyone becomes dictatorial and strident in their opinions, they are behaving in an inappropriate manner. If some want an exclusive forum where every breath can be controlled, set one up and label it as such so we all know. Acting like an adult only where you can have your own way in all things isn't really being an adult, in my opinion.
> 
> I used to enjoy this forum, too. It was the highpoint of my day for two years. Then members began drawing lines in the sand and chewing out anyone who crossed the lines for any reason. I don't like that any better than name-calling, cursing, or any other unpleasant behavior. I can leave the topic, or I can respond. I use both techniques, depending upon the circumstances surrounding the latest ruckus. We are supposed to be granted freedom of speech in the USA; people have fought and died for that privilege, but there are those on this forum who want to take it away. If the topic upsets you, simply avoid it.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you Purl for taking time to check, and for taking time to share the facts with all of us.



Poor Purl said:


> I don't have the FACTS, as you seem to think you have. I did a search on Snopes, which rates those "FACTS" in some instances as false as in others as undetermined. I also checked Politifact, which attributes your FACTS to an anonymous chained email (not anonymous, actually; it was signed by something calling itself Dee Dee Myers, who insists she had nothing to do with it), and other investigators deny that Stevens had been mutilated or raped but died in the hospital of smoke inhalation. You could see more at
> http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...email-claims-dee-dee-myers-says-amb-chris-st/ if you were really looking for facts, rather than the FACTS.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

alcameron said:


> I have posted more than once that I oppose a military strike in Syria. I have never "supported Obama blindly." Don't put words in my mouth. You don't know what I think. (That's a favorite sentence of one of your own.)


But you always think.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No, it isn't. It's sarcastic, quite a different thing.



blessedinMO said:


> Maybe so, but funny.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

silvercharms said:


> Well, despite some gallant souls still trying to have a political discussion, much of the rest of the thread just goes to show the bickering, backbiting and name-calling on a personal level that has nothing to do with politics ............or wait, is that today's politics?????


Only if we permit it.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> Why are you responding to it? The title told you what it was about..... The rule about talking politics on this forum was rescinded by Admin some time ago.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Supreya said:


> You been watching Australian politics again?


Or UK? USA? Canadian? etc. but that's what I see most of. I love hearing from voices all around the Globe on KP. I feel that it gives me perspective.


----------



## Gran Sandy (Jun 20, 2011)

Hi cakes I love your answer!


cakes said:


> just as well, 'cause I aint gonna change my horse in midstream


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

thank you SAMkewel for bringing logic to this thread. Look forward to continuing to read your postings.



SAMkewel said:


> Apparently you don't wish to discuss the topic of this thread. If you wish to discuss YOUR topic, it might be more appropriate to post your own title on your own topic instead of belittling this one.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I've seen many posts from you adding nothing to the discussion. And your point is?



galinipper said:


> 8 now


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put. Bravo.



SAMkewel said:


> You and I have a long history on the forum, courier770. I notice that whenever I make a supportive comment, you totally ignore it. On the other hand, whenever I say something you disagree with, you are extremely opinionated and hostile in your response, so yes, you do appear to be an angry person who does a considerable amount of venting. That's not a criticism in itself; folks vent here all the time. It's more that you don't seem to want to allow the same privilege to the rest of us who also don't need any help in determining our thoughts and opinions. So, if you don't wish to be a target, it would seem that you would allow all of us the same freedoms of speech that you feel are your right.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

One, two, button my shoe.



jelun2 said:


> 2 4 6 8 who do we appreciate?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> If those are your feelings and thoughts, that's fine. This particular thread could have been peaceful and tranquil if it was clearly understood that there is no rule against politics in this section of this forum, but those of us who were interested in this thread were immediately attacked by others who are, supposedly, not interested in it. What completely different forum would you banish us to?


Or, since we can only control ourselves, perhaps they should leave this thread and find another. Denim & Pearls perhaps?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

She's a role model indeed.



SAMkewel said:


> I must say, peacegoddess, I admire your ability to stick to the point in the midst of all the chaos going on here :~D.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> Words of encouragement for those of us who sometimes feel our actions have no impact.
> 
> A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history.
> Mahatma Gandhi


An admirable man.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Or a plagiarist?



jelun2 said:


> I am just wondering... do we have a celebrity in our midst? Do you write for the Independent Journal Review?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

martina said:


> I love many homosexuals (lovely people!) but am grieved that they choose an aberrant sexuality.


 You love them but.. They choose. No they don't. They are homosexual. My two sons and their partners are gay, and I love them, and don't judge them .[/quote]

You are correct, of course. Thanks.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for the thoughtful explanation.



SAMkewel said:


> It has been scientifically proven that the homosexual brain is physically different from the heterosexual brain. They do not "choose" to be homosexual. I would not have chosen that for my child because of the rejection of society and religion he suffered. He would not have chosen it for the same reasons. Do you realize how many suicides among homosexuals are the result of the attitudes of many organized religions and society in general? Do you know how many parents reject their children because they're homosexual? Do you know that the members of some religions go out of their way to send their homosexual adult children to San Francisco and support them there on the condition that they never return home? Can anyone explain exactly what they mean when they talk about the "homosexual lifestyle" or the "homosexual agenda?" Do you really believe that anyone would go through these situations by choice?
> 
> As far as no one being born with sexuality, where do you think it comes from? Did God leave the survival of His creations to chance?
> 
> Down's syndrome or autism are not diseases, per se, they are conditions, just as homosexuality is. I see them as conditions that are not subject to change or choice.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

When did we choose to love children and/or pets? Love is a many splendored thing.



jelun2 said:


> Geez Louise, it seems we are.
> I am trying ever so hard to remember when I chose to love men rather than women.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

jelun2 said:


> I can't respond straightforwardly without getting myself in trouble with the potty mouth police, however, there are many women who thoroughly enjoy oral sex both giving and receiving WITH (drum roll, please) their husbands. I know this is an astounding fact. Look at your definition of sodomy now.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Oh Girl you have educated all tonight.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sheesh! I only said a person with manners......oh! Never mind. I see my error. No manners there. Thanks for the opportunity to spell it out.



jelun2 said:


> Are you saying that everyone BUT damemary has freedom of speech? It certainly sounds like it.


----------



## Gran Sandy (Jun 20, 2011)

I haven't done anything outrageous only written a letter and signed a petition. The letter because the State Government want to take our new fire station at Homesville which is state of the art and a new fire engine, off twenty four hour service and close it at night. He also plans to close another 3 Fire Stations in Newcastle. The Homesville one is in an area where there is a lot of bush. It services my area as well. I just stated that if they had to call in people when there is a fire that by the time they got there the build, neighbouring premises as well as loss of life could happen.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

jelun2 said:


> Oh my flippin' word, how long has it been since you heard ANYONE use the free, white, and over 21 line?


About 50 years. They really keep it alive.

:mrgreen:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

What does it look like around you so we can determine if you need rescue?



Meerkat said:


> Sorry you are not out in the REAL world.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for sharing?



Meerkat said:


> Michael Douglas said he got throat cancer from oral sex.


 :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm sitting here with the cat laughing my head off. A screenwriter should be reading this.



blessedinMO said:


> Actually, this is better that current sit-coms any day.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Sorry, that was my first go at pictures and it might have not worked. Need coffee...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> "We are not telling anyone, they will go to hell. We are not the judge. The Bible says there is one way to heaven and that is through the man Christ Jesus."
> 
> Well I am not a Christian and neither was Jesus. If he showed up today, he would be more familiar and comfortable with me, not you, who claims to know about heaven. Jews don't make a big deal about heaven; we are more concerned about what is happening now and our obligation to make the world a better place for others by doing good deeds. Just what Jesus allegedly did as a Jew.
> 
> Maybe it is time to just read about circulars and wash cloths.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You are blessed. Some of us do understand.



kneonknitter said:


> Ummmmm excuse me, but, homosexuality isn't something that can be 'promoted' or used as a selling point to get someone who is not homosexual to change their sexuality. It is also not contagious because it is not a disease, a bacteria or virus. It is also something that is NOT chosen, it is given, by G-d himself, as homosexuals are born that way. They don't grow up thinking 'gee, everybody around me is heterosexual & I want to be different so I will be homosexual'. I did not choose it for my son, niece, cousin or brother in law, they are who they are. What makes you think anyone would actually choose a lifestyle that would put them in the cross hairs of people like you, who have no tolerance for others & feel that your opinion is the only opinion? As far as us 'only getting more of it' the reason we will 'get more of it' is because people are coming to recognize & accept that homosexuals are who they are & they feel safe nowadays living an open life. We will not 'get more of it' because it is catching. Do you think my son & his peers like the scrutiny & stigma that people like you place on them? Do you like your lifestyle? Why shouldn't my son be free to enjoy his without everyone else sticking their noses where it doesn't belong. Since you are living what you believe to be the perfect life in G-d's eyes, living as you believe he dictated I suggest that you not judge, lest you be judged. It is people with your frame of mind that has made my son's teenage & young adult years a total living hell. BTW...are you aware that statistics show that the majority of child molesters are straight men? Oh & let's not forget about all the scandals that are now coming out in the open about the years & years of sexual abuse being done to young boys are being done by G-d's supposed messengers themselves...PRIESTS. Notice how the Vatican makes it all magically go away? But, you know what? I am not angry with you for your beliefs because you are entitled to your beliefs. It is the sermonizing of your beliefs that piss me off. Know this...it was the children of people like you, who came to me, my husband & family looking for love, understanding & compassion when people like you threw their own children into the street without a care of what would happen to them. It is these kids, now happy, well adjusted adults, who call me 'Mom' & never see their bio parents ever again. Shame, Shame, Shame. Show me where in the bible it says to turn your back on your own flesh & blood! I am the one reaping the rewards of the love & respect from these kids. I am the one they share their good news with, their proud moments, their sadness. I am the one they come to for an understanding & compassionate shoulder or an ear to share their good news with & celebrate with them. I & people like me (there are thousands & thousands out there) are the winners & people like you (narrow minded & bigoted) are the clear losers.


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Which parts of Bklyn and Queens? I'm Manhattan born and bred, but I spent a good deal of time in those two boroughs.


I was born in Gerritsen Beach, but, my family all lived on Coney Island. Spent every weekend of the 1st 10 years of my life there.

I was raised in Flushing, across the street from Queens College in the Pomonok Housing Project.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

How would you have known if you saw us? There were several of us. Do you know how many are black?



Meerkat said:


> I'm not Janeway who is she? I looked at her name which says she is out in space I'm in the Midwest.
> 
> I was in MN when you indicated your pretend vacation but you were not anywhere around that place as I had people looking all over for your group. You are the one who is caught with lies.
> 
> I am white, you are black do we need to discuss our race?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Beware any personal information in public. I say this because I know.



Meerkat said:


> So you are in Missouri? I live in the Midwest too.


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

I love many homosexuals (lovely people!) but am grieved that they choose an aberrant sexuality.

You love them but.. They choose. No they don't. They are homosexual. My two sons and their partners are gay, and I love them, and don't judge them .[/quote]

Ok I have been biting my tongue all night not to say this, but, if I don't say it, I won't sleep....

re: I love many homosexuals (lovely people!) but am grieved that they choose an aberrant sexuality.

Isn't this the same as the patronizing statement 'I'm not prejudiced! A lot of my best friends are black!'

How can you love the very same people who's behavior you find abhorrant? Oh wait, must be because it says to somewhere in the bible.

NOW I can sleep. Good night.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Hi Janey. Are you and Meerkat ever online together? You seem like you'd be great pals.



Janeway said:


> Hi Meerkat got your note wanting me online so here I am--let the fun begin OK?
> 
> Janeway


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Many of us have several online devices..proving nothing.



Meerkat said:


> Check the postings as we are both online!!!!! Funny


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Are more of us supposed to play this stupid game? Signifying nothing.



BrattyPatty said:


> Ridiculous


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Now that would be a site to see.



kneonknitter said:


> What are the weapons of choice & will it be at 20 paces?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Absolutely.



SQM said:


> Too late for what? Are you threatening me with eternal life with Jesus? Not interested. I have had my fill of Jewish men.
> 
> Can I join up with the Bad Girls' Club here?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Haven't tried socks yet.



SQM said:


> Great and thanks. Will the Bad Girls help me turn the heel on my first pair of socks when I get there? I will refuse help from those who will be residing in Heaven that won't let me move in.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sharp as a tack Patty.



BrattyPatty said:


> I think you transposed a couple of letters there, KPG.
> Didn't you mean Satan?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Just wait.



Poor Purl said:


> I don't think they're the same. I've actually become fond of Janeway. But I like your description.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

damemary said:


> May I suggest you avoid General Chit Chat and go to Main, and Pictures? Much to enjoy there for you.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Great stuff. Thanks. I could use some caffeine too.



aw9358 said:


> Sorry, that was my first go at pictures and it might have not worked. Need coffee...


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

And we all know that is sooooo hard to do.


Meerkat said:


> Check the postings as we are both online!!!!! Funny


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

...or a shrink.



damemary said:


> I'm sitting here with the cat laughing my head off. A screenwriter should be reading this.
> 
> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> Many of us have several online devices..proving nothing.


True, true. It's even easier if one has a laptop (or an Ipad)...saves a lot of time running from computer to computer.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> It is amazing that those who feel that Heaven is guaranteed to them just because they read a bible, actually believe it. I always understood that God decides that based on your thoughts actions words, and deeds. Now most of these people turn their backs on the homeless, poor, homosexuals, and anything different from their belief. There is a name for that. It just has escaped me for now. Stay tuned


Well, your understanding makes you 100% wrong. No one gets into Heaven because they read the Bible, or by thoughts, actions, words or deeds or falsely judging others. There _is_ a name and a place for you who believe that way - stay tuned. :evil:


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> SQM, don't you know the future? When the Rapture comes, they will all be lifted up to Heaven, leaving their material possessions behind. We nonbelievers, who won't be going with them, will get to keep their cars.


My rapture comes when my daughter deems to call me. I have no interest in eternal life. This one was more than enough. I refuse to recycle.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> So what is the difference between rape and sodomy then? You kept saying the men in Benghazi were raped not sodomized. If a man does this to a woman what would you call it. What if the man were the woman's husband and she didn't want to do it? or what if she did? What if it were two married men who both wanted to do it or two married women who used one of those "pretend penises". Who is sinning and who is not? Is it only a sin if it is illegal? So many questions aren't their but I bet you can tell us everything about such matters can't you? I'm very curious to hear what the devote "Christians" believe is God's ruling on such activities. You seem very experienced and well versed in these things.


I said Stephens was sodomized. Rape is forced assault of a sexual nature. Man on man that means sodomy as Stephens didn't have a vagina. My mistake was assuming you could understand what a man on man rape was. I doubt Stephens gave his permission. Wouldn't you agree? I think the truth of what happened doesn't fit your political narrative, so you are deliberately trying to confuse the situation.


----------



## Leslie_S (Aug 31, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> I love the creativity exhibited at these actions. Keep up the good work.


I totally agree with you as to what can happen when good people stay silent. WWII is a perfect example. I have enjoyed this thread as I am a total news and political junky and even this discussion has shown the workings of a democracy-"the good, bad and the ugly!" That was the name of a Clint Eastwood movie in the 60's!

to Marianne  sorry, wrong quote...


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I just finished today's forum and it seemed so dull compared to this thread. Some of the bad girls did show up but otherwise it was tame.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Heck, all you need is 2 or 3 different browsers on the same machine.



susanmos2000 said:


> True, true. It's even easier if one has a laptop (or an Ipad)...saves a lot of time running from computer to computer.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

OK, I am officially confused. Today's forum?

I find reading the posts of people who I know as intelligent beings trying to communicate rationally with moonbats frustrating. That's just me.



SQM said:


> I just finished today's forum and it seemed so dull compared to this thread. Some of the bad girls did show up but otherwise it was tame.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

jelun2 said:


> Heck, all you need is 2 or 3 different browsers on the same machine.


Do tell! Good to know!


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> Sorry, that was my first go at pictures and it might have not worked. Need coffee...


I have said over and over again that some repubs and Tea Party advocates lack empathy. It shows every time they knock the poor in one way or another. They consistently vote for slashing budgets that are ear-marked for social programs. They'll tell you that they give at church and The Lord never said the government should help people.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

LOL, that is exactly what I plan... to recycle.



SQM said:


> My rapture comes when my daughter deems to call me. I have no interest in eternal life. This one was more than enough. I refuse to recycle.


----------



## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> Heck, all you need is 2 or 3 different browsers on the same machine.


 And you can even debate yourself on a thread, it's called Cybill.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

I sincerely hope that those who think they are going to communicate with me in the AM in order to annoy will come to understand that early in the day I really don't give a hairy rat's behind about what they think, what they say, or what they say they think.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> My rapture comes when my daughter deems to call me. I have no interest in eternal life. This one was more than enough. I refuse to recycle.


SQM
I am not interested in that imaginary place either. Reality is my playground.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

kneonknitter said:


> I was born in Gerritsen Beach, but, my family all lived on Coney Island. Spent every weekend of the 1st 10 years of my life there.
> 
> I was raised in Flushing, across the street from Queens College in the Pomonok Housing Project.


I had an aunt and uncle (and 2 cousins) living in the Pomonok houses. I, too, spent my formative years living in the projects. As for Coney, we never went to the beach there, only for the rides and the Tuesday night fireworks. We went to Brighton Beach, where I had yet more uncles and aunts and cousins. My parents were the only people in our extended family who lived in Manhattan, and that was just on the Lower East Side.

In adulthood I worked in Flatbush and then later in Bay Ridge, so those are the two parts of Bklyn I know best.

Thanks for the trip.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> How would you have known if you saw us? There were several of us. Do you know how many are black?


Please. She "had people looking all over for your group. You are the one who is caught with lies." If you didn't feel eyes boring into the back of your skull, you weren't there.


----------



## Leslie_S (Aug 31, 2013)

alcameron said:


> I have said over and over again that some repubs and Tea Party advocates lack empathy. It shows every time they knock the poor in one way or another. They consistently vote for slashing budgets that are ear-marked for social programs. They'll tell you that they give at church and The Lord never said the government should help people.


I used to be very conservative, but in the early '90s I switched to democrats. I did feel that the republican party was rather mean spirited during political campaigns. My best friend is republican, so I am going to put on my helmet right now! lol :XD:


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Oh heck, the whole bunch I live with covers the full spectrum from libertarian to knee jerk idiot. Now that I think of it, he could be knitwhoever except he is an atheist.



Leslie_S said:


> I used to be very conservative, but in the early '90s I switched to democrats. I did feel that the republican party was rather mean spirited during political campaigns. My best friend is republican, so I am going to put on my helmet right now! lol :XD:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> My rapture comes when my daughter deems to call me. I have no interest in eternal life. This one was more than enough. I refuse to recycle.


You're lucky you have to wait for your daughter to call. My son, who just turned 39, moved back in with us a year ago when his apartment was invaded by mice, and he hasn't moved out. He's always around. I think this is what eternal life feels like, and I don't want any part of it.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Tell him you need a new knitting room?



Poor Purl said:


> You're lucky you have to wait for your daughter to call. My son, who just turned 39, moved back in with us a year ago when his apartment was invaded by mice, and he hasn't moved out. He's always around. I think this is what eternal life feels like, and I don't want any part of it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

According to medical reports from the hospital where he died, there were no signs of violence. There _was_ some internal bleeding due to smoke inhalation. But why believe medical reports when some anonymous bloggers know the real story?


Knit crazy said:


> I said Stephens was sodomized. Rape is forced assault of a sexual nature. Man on man that means sodomy as Stephens didn't have a vagina. My mistake was assuming you could understand what a man on man rape was. I doubt Stephens gave his permission. Wouldn't you agree? I think the truth of what happened doesn't fit your political narrative, so you are deliberately trying to confuse the situation.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jelun2 said:


> Tell him you need a new knitting room?


It won't work. The room he sleeps in is full of yarn, needles, plus two sewing machines and a fabric stash.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

alcameron said:


> I have said over and over again that some repubs and Tea Party advocates lack empathy. It shows every time they knock the poor in one way or another. They consistently vote for slashing budgets that are ear-marked for social programs. They'll tell you that they give at church and The Lord never said the government should help people.


Well, the Republicans don't think the Democrats are too smart. You think we're mean. I guess it's a draw.


----------



## Knit crazy (Mar 13, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> According to medical reports from the hospital where he died, there were no signs of violence. There _was_ some internal bleeding due to smoke inhalation. But why believe medical reports when some anonymous bloggers know the real story?


No reports from Obama's team have been accurate and family members only know what people on the scene told them. What you heard regarding smoke inhalation was more Obama spin. I have seen a picture and heard from a family member of details. I don't trust the president because he lied about the anti-Muslim video as a cause. I saw someone quoted DeeDee Myers. She worked as press secretary for the first two years of the Clinton administration and has gone downhill personally and job-wise since she left. A great friend of Hillary, she obviously was called to serve to cover Hillsry's behind, since Hillary failed so abysmally in regard to Benghazi.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> Well, the Republicans don't think the Democrats are too smart. You think we're mean. I guess it's a draw.


I didn't know it was possible to be "too" smart. I guess for Republicans it is.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

The fact that you don't believe the reports doesn't mean they're not true. The information you got comes from a chain email purporting to be sent out by Dee Dee Myers, but actually having nothing to do with her. Certainly an anonymous email is more believable than an official report. :?

There are (supposedly neutral) fact-checking sites on the web. You could check this one out http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...email-claims-dee-dee-myers-says-amb-chris-st/


Knit crazy said:


> No reports from Obama's team have been accurate and family members only know what people on the scene told them. What you heard regarding smoke inhalation was more Obama spin. I have seen a picture and heard from a family member of details. I don't trust the president because he lied about the anti-Muslim video as a cause. I saw someone quoted DeeDee Myers. She worked as press secretary for the first two years of the Clinton administration and has gone downhill personally and job-wise since she left. A great friend of Hillary, she obviously was called to serve to cover Hillsry's behind, since Hillary failed so abysmally in regard to Benghazi.


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

SQM said:


> Too late for what? Are you threatening me with eternal life with Jesus? Not interested. I have had my fill of Jewish men.
> 
> Can I join up with the Bad Girls' Club here?


Yes, they will welcome you, but remember nearly all of those women were kicked off KP so don't understand why they were allowed to return. Remember the truth will always prevail as Meerkat & I had fun with Bratty last night.

Someone said we have a new Admin so maybe that is how those hateful Democrats are back on KP to continue to Bully.

Read LOLL # 4 to see what they did to poor Lolly as she was ready to commit suicide because they were bullying her.

Do you really want to be one of those hateful women?


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I didn't know it was possible to be "too" smart. I guess for Republicans it is.


Wow, another hateful Lefty! Guess you have joined the bad girls club of bullies! :hunf: :hunf: :roll: :roll: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> SQM
> make yourself at home here. Plenty of bad Girls.


You should know as you are one of the bad girls who loves to bully! We know how to take care of new people who don't behave as Meerkat & I showed up Bratty last night. Such fun it helped me to sleep well!


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Wow, Janeway and Meerkat certainly have a thing against black people. What a coincidence!
> Janeway is always telling people on this site that they are black. So does Meerkat. I would say 2 peas in a pod but I think it is one nut out of it's shell


Keep saying things that are not true, but remember Meerkat & I had fun at your expense--such fun!

I'm not against blacks, but you are always saying I am which is another untruth.

I cannot speak for Meerkat, but I have heard the single, white & over 21 a lot of times. Where have you been--head stuck in the ground?

Why can't Meerkat say that she is white as you women are always saying we are women of color! Talk about racism! Don't you like white people?


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I didn't know it was possible to be "too" smart. I guess for Republicans it is.


Poor Purl
IF they are smart, why are they hiding it?


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Janeway said:


> Keep saying things that are not true, but remember Meerkat & I had fun at your expense--such fun!
> 
> I'm not against blacks, but you are always saying I am which is another untruth.
> 
> ...


The last time I heard that phrase was in an episode of Fame from the 1980s. A teacher said it to a student and was deemed to be racist. Has society gone backwards?


----------



## MrsMurdog (Apr 16, 2013)

SAMkewel said:


> When Admin reinstates the rules of keeping politics and religion off this site, we will. Since it was seen fit to rescind those rules, I think we should all abide by that decision instead of trying to make our own rules.


Religion and Politics are very important to women and crafting otherwise we would not see so many prayer shawls and hat/scarf donation threads. Politics and Religion are ways we organize our communities especially in times of need.


----------



## Leslie_S (Aug 31, 2013)

Knit crazy said:


> Well, the Republicans don't think the Democrats are too smart. You think we're mean. I guess it's a draw.


I guess that is why college campuses are mostly democratic.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janeway said:


> Wow, another hateful Lefty! Guess you have joined the bad girls club of bullies!


 Did you bother to read what I was responding to? I answered insult with insult; if that makes me a hateful lefty, what does that say about the righty who made the first insult?


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> "********" is the word for homosexuals in the Bible. It also speaks of "men laying with men" and "women with women". Can it get any clearer?
> 
> Interesting that you would group homosexuality with Downs syndrome and other diseases! Actually no one is born with a sexuality, only a sex. Some men are born to be more effeminate than others, but many effeminate men have been good husbands (to women!). Sexuality is highly influenced by culture and cultural norms. This is why the "mainstreaming" and even promotion of the homosexual lifestyle is a threat to our society and future generations. We are only going to get more of it.
> 
> I love many homosexuals (lovely people!) but am grieved that they choose an aberrant sexuality. I think if most of us were honest with ourselves, it's not what we would choose for our children and grandchildren.


So nice that you have all the answers and aren't at all shy about telling people everything you think you know. Lady you don't have a clue. Jesus and Christianity are just a blip on the timeline of history and the god the father/god the son story has appeared several times before Jesus came along. It's just a rerun of a very old legend that primitives keep retelling to keep themselves safe from that thing that "goes bump in the night". I hope it gives you some comfort but a baby blanket usually does the trick just as well.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Poor Purl
> IF they are smart, why are they hiding it?


I guess this belongs on the "I've got a secret" thread, because they do manage to keep it a secret. Did you hear any of Michelle Bachmann's speech in Egypt yesterday?


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Meerkat said:
 

> I'm not Janeway who is she? I looked at her name which says she is out in space I'm in the Midwest.
> 
> I was in MN when you indicated your pretend vacation but you were not anywhere around that place as I had people looking all over for your group. You are the one who is caught with lies.
> 
> I am white, you are black do we need to discuss our race?


Janeway or meerkat how many people do you think live in MN? You don't even know what we look like or where we were in the state. You could have bumped right into us and not even known it. Who did you tell your friends they should be looking for? You two are so funny Jane or is it meerkat?


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> The last time I heard that phrase was in an episode of Fame from the 1980s. A teacher said it to a student and was deemed to be racist. Has society gone backwards?


Anne that is one of the biggest problems with the right. They are living in the past and don't want to move into the new century. Things have changed and they can't keep pace and they don't want to. The world does not make sense to them and they are no longer "top dog" in the world and I think they are very frightened. Like it or not if you don't adapt you become extinct as Mr. Darwin discovered. They don't believe that either but sticking your head in the sand and telling people they are all going to hell isn't winning them any converts either. Most of my family are practicing christains but not one of them thinks I am going to hell for it. Funny how this one group believes they have all the answers. Boy are they in for a big surprise. The creator loves all of creation and it's the humans who ruin it or save it. Keep watching to see how this all turns out Anne. Anything tasty for tea this evening?


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I didn't know it was possible to be "too" smart. I guess for Republicans it is.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> The last time I heard that phrase was in an episode of Fame from the 1980s. A teacher said it to a student and was deemed to be racist. Has society gone backwards?


Actually I've always heard it as "free, white, and over 21", but no matter--neither version is acceptable anymore.


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

How sad that when people run out of facts they turn to insults.


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## ginnyinnr (May 20, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> The fact that you don't believe the reports doesn't mean they're not true. The information you got comes from a chain email purporting to be sent out by Dee Dee Myers, but actually having nothing to do with her. Certainly an anonymous email is more believable than an official report. :?
> 
> There are (supposedly neutral) fact-checking sites on the web. You could check this one out http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...email-claims-dee-dee-myers-says-amb-chris-st/


How in heck did this one entry on page one get this far? Not very nice in my opinion. Losing friends on KP is a terrible thing to waste.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I have only read a portion of this thread. I need to comment on some statements of Cheeky Blighter. I have told her the reason she does not like me is because I'm a Bible Believing Conservative Christian. I have not called her names, I have questioned many of her statements and asked for websites to back her statements. few replies. I am pro life and anti gay marriage, not because I say it is wrong, but because in the eyes of God it is wrong.
> 
> If I can make a statement for the others on the right, we do not HATE those in the gay lifestyle. If there is hate, it is in what they are doing. It is because it is an abomination in the eyes of God.
> 
> ...


Lies, lies and more lies joey. Why do you and your friends care at all about what we think? I wouldn't give two cents for what you or any of the right thinks. You are all a bunch of narrow minded, holy rollers who think you have all the answers. I believe you are afraid of us because we may be correct and what would that do to your belief system. It would be shattered into a million pieces and then where will you be? I know what I believe and I have nothing to fear especially people like you. You flatter yourself if you think I care about you. You have shown your true selves for what you are a bunch of terrified folks who are afraid of your own shadows. I sleep safe and secure knowing I am wrapped in the arms of my creator and I hope some day you can feel that security too and stop hating everything and everyone you don't understand. Show a little class and leave us in peace. I neither want or desire any interaction with any of you so do the Christian thing and play on D&P and if you can't remain civil go fight on S&O. You did not get an invitation to any of the Liberal threads and you are carrying on like a bunch of heathens jumping around and demanding that someone pay attention to you. How pitiful a site is that? Really, joey? Show a little self-control and start acting like an adult. Let's see, it's 1:05PM. When will the first one of you land on a liberal thread. You just can't resist us can you? Perhaps a little, jealousy?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ginnyinnr said:


> How in heck did this one entry on page one get this far? Not very nice in my opinion. Losing friends on KP is a terrible thing to waste.


What does this mean??? What friends am I losing?

I did give this link earlier, but on p.28, not p.1. And it looked as though someone else could use the info, so I gave it again on p. 46. What's not nice about that? I thought I was being helpful. Is that supposed to lose me friends?


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

These folks LOVE fresh meat, PP.



Poor Purl said:


> I didn't know it was possible to be "too" smart. I guess for Republicans it is.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

The main reason I find it abhorrent to interact with them, Huck, is the intentional ignorance. Why would anyone want to portray themselves that way?



Huckleberry said:


> Poor Purl
> IF they are smart, why are they hiding it?


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knit crazy said:


> I said Stephens was sodomized. Rape is forced assault of a sexual nature. Man on man that means sodomy as Stephens didn't have a vagina. My mistake was assuming you could understand what a man on man rape was. I doubt Stephens gave his permission. Wouldn't you agree? I think the truth of what happened doesn't fit your political narrative, so you are deliberately trying to confuse the situation.


You didn't answer the questions so I guess you don't know the answers. All we heard from the right was it was rape in Stephen's case. Do you know if the men involved were gay or straight? Was Stephens gay or straight or the man who penetrated his rectum, what was he? I would agree that Stephen's probably did not give consent but what about people who you posted above a man on man rape. It's you who needs a basic human biology class. Women can be sodomized too and so can children. Sodomy is placing a foreign object or a penis into someone's rectum. For many consulting adults this is normal practice for both men and women. You were the one that brought the topic up and it is obvious you do not understand the subject at hand so you just make things up along the way to "suit you own political agenda." The right callously and with a cold heart used this incident to try to self promote and all you did was make yourselves look like the fools that you are. Hillary was right, those dead weren't going to come back to life. She stated a fact and yes it may have sounded cold but it was the truth. Your bunch knowingly took advantage of a tragedy and didn't give a damn about those people! You are a bunch of phonys and the only people that don't see it is you. Benghazi my eye!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jelun2 said:


> The main reason I find it abhorrent to interact with them, Huck, is the intentional ignorance. Why would anyone want to portray themselves that way?


Why, indeed?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> All we heard from the right was it was rape in Stephen's case. .... Your bunch knowingly took advantage of a tragedy and didn't give a damn about those people! You are a bunch of phonys and the only people that don't see it is you. Benghazi my eye!


And it probably never even happened. This is just the right's way of making Muslims look inhuman, and the truth be damned. Why waste your time asking questions of people who know only the talking points and think they're the facts?


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Knit crazy said:


> Now Obama may have been rescued by Russia with a suggestion that we don't attack if Assad turns over all his WMDs. Does anyone think Assad is honorable enough to commit honestly to that plan? Of course not. Assad is a barbarian and psychopath. He will turn over some, keep the others and use them sparingly. When will Americans stop being naive and stupid. Maybe when we get a president who isn't.


Syria made most of these WMD's, so they can always make more. It's probably not a real issue for them to turn them over. Russia has promised Assad more weapons and its backing to carry on his civil war, when Assad turns over the WMD's. It's a win-win for Assad and Putin. Putin does not want a WWIII now ass he is not naive nor stupid. I think Obama is PO'd that Putin ran with this compromise as Obama still wants to strike Syria.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Lies, lies and more lies joey. Why do you and your friends care at all about what we think? I wouldn't give two cents for what you or any of the right thinks. You are all a bunch of narrow minded, holy rollers who think you have all the answers. I believe you are afraid of us because we may be correct and what would that do to your belief system. It would be shattered into a million pieces and then where will you be? I know what I believe and I have nothing to fear especially people like you. You flatter yourself if you think I care about you. You have shown your true selves for what you are a bunch of terrified folks who are afraid of your own shadows. I sleep safe and secure knowing I am wrapped in the arms of my creator and I hope some day you can feel that security too and stop hating everything and everyone you don't understand. Show a little class and leave us in peace. I neither want or desire any interaction with any of you so do the Christian thing and play on D&P and if you can't remain civil go fight on S&O. You did not get an invitation to any of the Liberal threads and you are carrying on like a bunch of heathens jumping around and demanding that someone pay attention to you. How pitiful a site is that? Really, joey? Show a little self-control and start acting like an adult. Let's see, it's 1:05PM. When will the first one of you land on a liberal thread. You just can't resist us can you? Perhaps a little, jealousy?


Cheeky Blighter
how sweet we are, the Hornets can't resist us.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> And it probably never even happened. This is just the right's way of making Muslims look inhuman, and the truth be damned. Why waste your time asking questions of people who know only the talking points and think they're the facts?


Poor Purl
the medical reports do not confirm any sexual abuse.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Janeway or meerkat how many people do you think live in MN? You don't even know what we look like or where we were in the state. You could have bumped right into us and not even known it. Who did you tell your friends they should be looking for? You two are so funny Jane or is it meerkat?


No, I'm Janeway, not Meerkat, but she does seen nice. Thanks for the compliment to think I'm her.

I cannot answer for Meerkat so ask her when she returns to KP as I was not in MN so have no idea about that area.

Dream on my dear!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> What does this mean??? What friends am I losing?
> 
> I did give this link earlier, but on p.28, not p.1. And it looked as though someone else could use the info, so I gave it again on p. 46. What's not nice about that? I thought I was being helpful. Is that supposed to lose me friends?


Purl, sorry to intrude but my take after interacting with and honestly saying I lowered myself to their standards and fought with them. They have been on one mission only and that is to silence and get rid of anyone from the left. They either cannot or will not leave us alone. Some of us try to not even interact with them and I am having a hard time doing that. They trash everything they determine to be a threat to their political and or religious belief and for many of them they are the same thing. All I have recently asked of them is to stay off the new thread, POV unless they decided to have civil discourse but they can't even do that. Why I do not know and I no longer care. They aren't going to change us and we aren't going to change them. We Liberals have respect for each other and all of us express ourselves in different ways and on different areas on KP. I only am responsible for myself and each of us does what works for them. I have asked everyone who posts on POV to be respectful and nice but even that could not be accomplished by some on both sides. I go to other threads if I feel the need to respond to a post but I am not going to s--t in my own back yard and I have no respect for anyone doing that. I stay off of D&P, the conservative home base and show them respect by doing that. Isn't is sad and very unchristian like for them to do that to me? Same goes for any liberals who do that. When you disrespect another person you are also disrespecting yourself and I have been guilty of it but am making a concerted effort to "clean up my own act" and what I get from the right is taunts and teasing from the right because they can't deal with it and they want me to give in.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

ginnyinnr said:


> How in heck did this one entry on page one get this far? Not very nice in my opinion. Losing friends on KP is a terrible thing to waste.


You are very correct with your thinking about the "bad girl club" they want to be known to sling insults at anyone who is not a Democrat. They think it is OK to bad mouth anyone who is not of "their" party. What a crock!


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Purl, sorry to intrude but my take after interacting with and honestly saying I lowered myself to their standards and fought with them. They have been on one mission only and that is to silence and get rid of anyone from the left. They either cannot or will not leave us alone. Some of us try to not even interact with them and I am having a hard time doing that. They trash everything they determine to be a threat to their political and or religious belief and for many of them they are the same thing. All I have recently asked of them is to stay off the new thread, POV unless they decided to have civil discourse but they can't even do that. Why I do not know and I no longer care. They aren't going to change us and we aren't going to change them. We Liberals have respect for each other and all of us express ourselves in different ways and on different areas on KP. I only am responsible for myself and each of us does what works for them. I have asked everyone who posts on POV to be respectful and nice but even that could not be accomplished by some on both sides. I go to other threads if I feel the need to respond to a post but I am not going to s--t in my own back yard and I have no respect for anyone doing that. I stay off of D&P, the conservative home base and show them respect by doing that. Isn't is sad and very unchristian like for them to do that to me? Same goes for any liberals who do that. When you disrespect another person you are also disrespecting yourself and I have been guilty of it but am making a concerted effort to "clean up my own act" and what I get from the right is taunts and teasing from the right because they can't deal with it and they want me to give in.


Well an example of what one of your bad girls club said to my friend TheYarnLady (Yarnie) to put a pencil between her teeth & enjoy her seizure! Most new comers to this site do not know just how mean your group is with everyone who is not a Democrat!

You have bullied me since I'm on Oxygen to get your foot off the hose as you are not thing clearly! Then posted the Raid can & made fun of the fact that I'm Apache Indian.

Confession is good for the soul--you do possess such an item my dear!

I will pray for you as you don't seem to pray to our Lord Jesus Christ.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

knitcrazy just entered the "I've got a Secret" thread to stir things up and got jumped right away by someone after she posed the suggestion that I would take the chat to homosexuality. It was great cuz the thread is not that busy so I could point out that SHE raised the subject.



Cheeky Blighter said:


> Purl, sorry to intrude but my take after interacting with and honestly saying I lowered myself to their standards and fought with them. They have been on one mission only and that is to silence and get rid of anyone from the left. They either cannot or will not leave us alone. Some of us try to not even interact with them and I am having a hard time doing that. They trash everything they determine to be a threat to their political and or religious belief and for many of them they are the same thing. All I have recently asked of them is to stay off the new thread, POV unless they decided to have civil discourse but they can't even do that. Why I do not know and I no longer care. They aren't going to change us and we aren't going to change them. We Liberals have respect for each other and all of us express ourselves in different ways and on different areas on KP. I only am responsible for myself and each of us does what works for them. I have asked everyone who posts on POV to be respectful and nice but even that could not be accomplished by some on both sides. I go to other threads if I feel the need to respond to a post but I am not going to s--t in my own back yard and I have no respect for anyone doing that. I stay off of D&P, the conservative home base and show them respect by doing that. Isn't is sad and very unchristian like for them to do that to me? Same goes for any liberals who do that. When you disrespect another person you are also disrespecting yourself and I have been guilty of it but am making a concerted effort to "clean up my own act" and what I get from the right is taunts and teasing from the right because they can't deal with it and they want me to give in.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Janeway said:


> You are very correct with your thinking about the "bad girl club" they want to be known to sling insults at anyone who is not a Democrat. They think it is OK to bad mouth anyone who is not of "their" party. What a crock!


Oh, please, Jane. You and your friends sling insults (and more) at the other side all the time. You can hardly write anything without insulting someone.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Sex is always a magnet for the Christian Ladies.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Poor Purl
> the medical reports do not confirm any sexual abuse.


I know. That's why I posted the Politifact link. But there are people who won't believe this government about anything, though they're quite willing to believe anything some anonymous blogger posts as long as it conforms to their view.


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Sex is always a magnet for the Christian Ladies.


I must be looking in all the wrong places.


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> The last time I heard that phrase was in an episode of Fame from the 1980s. A teacher said it to a student and was deemed to be racist. Has society gone backwards?


I returned to Meerkats post & she did not say "free". In my opinion, she is proud of her race not as others on KP.

You are in the UK so how do you know what goes on among people here as bet you have not been here.

You also slammed me by starting a thread because I thought you were someone else & you were very cruel for no reason. You finally apologized?

Confession is good for the soul!


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Oh, please, Jane. You and your friends sling insults (and more) at the other side all the time. You can hardly write anything without insulting someone.


Needing a cookie? Did not know I involved you. Thought we were at least civil to each other.

If you think I'm insulting others then you must not be reading what your bad girls club are saying to me.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

You're not intruding, and I've seen how much energy you give to try to be civilized. I try not to engage, but I won't let one of them insult us without responding in kind.

But that message from Ginnyinnr made no sense - I wish someone would tell me what she meant.



Cheeky Blighter said:


> Purl, sorry to intrude but my take after interacting with and honestly saying I lowered myself to their standards and fought with them. They have been on one mission only and that is to silence and get rid of anyone from the left. They either cannot or will not leave us alone. Some of us try to not even interact with them and I am having a hard time doing that. They trash everything they determine to be a threat to their political and or religious belief and for many of them they are the same thing. All I have recently asked of them is to stay off the new thread, POV unless they decided to have civil discourse but they can't even do that. Why I do not know and I no longer care. They aren't going to change us and we aren't going to change them. We Liberals have respect for each other and all of us express ourselves in different ways and on different areas on KP. I only am responsible for myself and each of us does what works for them. I have asked everyone who posts on POV to be respectful and nice but even that could not be accomplished by some on both sides. I go to other threads if I feel the need to respond to a post but I am not going to s--t in my own back yard and I have no respect for anyone doing that. I stay off of D&P, the conservative home base and show them respect by doing that. Isn't is sad and very unchristian like for them to do that to me? Same goes for any liberals who do that. When you disrespect another person you are also disrespecting yourself and I have been guilty of it but am making a concerted effort to "clean up my own act" and what I get from the right is taunts and teasing from the right because they can't deal with it and they want me to give in.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Janeway said:


> I returned to Meerkats post & she did not say "free". In my opinion, she is proud of her race not as others on KP.
> 
> You are in the UK so how do you know what goes on among people here as bet you have not been here.
> 
> ...


You know I apologised, both publicly and privately. Please practise what you preach regarding "slamming".


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

jelun2 said:


> I sincerely hope that those who think they are going to communicate with me in the AM in order to annoy will come to understand that early in the day I really don't give a hairy rat's behind about what they think, what they say, or what they say they think.


I don't limit myself to the AM.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> You know I apologised, both publicly and privately. Please practise what you preach regarding "slamming".


Yes, I accepted your apology as you are kinder than the others you call friends. Alcameron & I have also been kind to each other.

I won't mention what happened between us as you did apologize. I was only telling the truth & did not mean to slam you, but if you think I did then I'll apologize! I'm sorry. Truce?


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Janeway said:


> Yes, I accepted your apology as you are kinder than the others you call friends. Alcameron & I have also been kind to each other.
> 
> I won't mention what happened between us as you did apologize. I was only telling the truth & did not mean to slam you, but if you think I did then I'll apologize! I'm sorry. Truce?


Yes please. And thank you for your apology.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

I can't help but notice it is always someone else's sex life that interests them. Have you seen that?



Huckleberry said:


> Sex is always a magnet for the Christian Ladies.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

jelun2 said:


> I can't help but notice it is always someone else's sex life that interests them. Have you seen that?


I do not understand. It was horrifying enough to realise that my parents had sex. I don't want to think about what other people, of whatever orientation, get up to consensually in bed. It's none of my business.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

jelun2 said:


> I can't help but notice it is always someone else's sex life that interests them. Have you seen that?


Yes, I have. I've never been able to figure out why the righties focus on the possibility of Stevens being rapes to the exclusion of all else. Hardly makes sense unless they believe that Obama was one of the perpetrators--sounds insane, but heck, these folks believe our President is stockpiling guillotines to lop off conservative heads. No anti-Obama tall tale is impossible for them to swallow.


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## calisuzi (Apr 1, 2013)

MrsMurdog, like you didn't act and am no longer a 'bleeding heart' liberal, cynical, oh my god YES, conservative, never in a life time and do feel defeated seeing what this country is turning into.


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## calisuzi (Apr 1, 2013)

susanmos2000,The righties as you named them never cease to amaze me with the stupidity they believe, they weary me to no end.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Have you noticed she will call me a liar, but will not say what the lies were. So I guess for her lack of response, what I said must be true.


Cheeky already answered you/us Joey. As she said, "You didn't answer the questions so I guess you don't know the answers."

Cheeky cannot answer you nor point out any lie that she claims you or anyone else post. Simply put, is because you/we have told no lies.

The Truth always prevails.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Leslie_S said:


> I guess that is why college campuses are mostly democratic.


Post sources to fit your statement! Guess you are of the Democratic Party or otherwise you would not have made such a foolish statement.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

calisuzi said:


> susanmos2000,The righties as you named them never cease to amaze me with the stupidity they believe, they weary me to no end.


Well, sweetie, I'm not a stupid person so quote your education please! You sound as if you left high school early.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

Being in the process of moving and far, I have little time to look in but noticed that Sex has become a big subject with some Holy Rollers. 
Very interesting. 
They better shed bad habits before they enter Heaven.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> Yes please. And thank you for your apology.


You are most welcome.


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## Ingried (Sep 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Cheeky already answered you/us Joey. As she said, "You didn't answer the questions so I guess you don't know the answers."
> 
> Cheeky cannot answer you nor point out any lie that she claims you or anyone else post. Simply put, is because you/we have told no lies.
> 
> The Truth always prevails.


knitpresentgifts
Truth is now familiar to you? 
I shall keep an Eye on it to see if it is true.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Ingried said:


> Being in the process of moving and far, I have little time to look in but noticed that Sex has become a big subject with some Holy Rollers.
> Very interesting.
> They better shed bad habits before they enter Heaven.


Oh, sweet Ingried (not) who do you think invented sex? What is wrong with that enjoyable act--thought you were married or did I forget that you & Huck buried your husband?

If it is really true (as it is difficult to tell truths from lies) that your husband passed away, then I'm sorry for your grief. Please tell the truth.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Leslie_S said:


> I guess that is why college campuses are mostly democratic.





Janeway said:


> Post sources to fit your statement! Guess you are of the Democratic Party or otherwise you would not have made such a foolish statement.


Hmmm. I didn't realize grounds and buildings ever chose to belong to political parties. Learned something new today from a Dem, no less.


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## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Ingried said:


> knitpresentgifts
> Truth is now familiar to you?
> I shall keep an Eye on it to see if it is true.


Now, now, Ingried, we never got the truth out of you about any subject. I shall keep an "eye" on you.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Ingried said:


> knitpresentgifts
> Truth is now familiar to you?
> I shall keep an Eye on it to see if it is true.


You're best to keep your nose far in your bubble wrap.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

I think a few people have been hitting the sauce early.


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## calisuzi (Apr 1, 2013)

Janeway, didn't call you stupid, said righties believe some really stupid things, read better next time. 68 years old well out of high school and college educated, love the rancor when you're not agreed with.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Besides, aren't stupid, ignorant, and uneducated all different?



calisuzi said:


> Janeway, didn't call you stupid, said righties believe some really stupid things, read better next time. 68 years old well out of high school and college educated, love the rancor when you're not agreed with.


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

calisuzi said:


> Janeway, didn't call you stupid, said righties believe some really stupid things, read better next time. 68 years old well out of high school and college educated, love the rancor when you're not agreed with.


Oh, good another Democrat! Glad you are enjoying my posts.

My education: graduated 4th in High School. BS in Accounting with a minor in Ecomomics. ME in Higher Education.

Had cardiac arrest so my mind cannot find most of this education. I'm on Oxygen 24-7 except for several minutes each day. I'm disabled because of Pulmonary Hypertension. I do knit & crochet for charity!

What crafts do you enjoy?


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

jelun2 said:


> Besides, aren't stupid, ignorant, and uneducated all different?


Yes, Last time I looked at some people on KP. Which are you?


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

jelun2 said:


> I think a few people have been hitting the sauce early.


Nope, don't drink sauce! What do you drink?


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

When everything else fails, claim disability. So sad for those who really suffer 24/7. Never see those wasting their Life with anger during the few minutes they may feel fairly good.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> When everything else fails, claim disability. So sad for those who really suffer 24/7. Never see those wasting their Life with anger during the few minutes they may feel fairly good.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> I think a few people have been hitting the sauce early.


jelun2
you can set your clock by their regular time and yes it seems that the liquid came out early today.


----------



## Leslie_S (Aug 31, 2013)

OK. Now I shall make a prediction that is sure to make me popular. I am 63 years old, former republican who believes there will not be another republican president in the United States during my lifetime. I'm great in political science and demographics!


----------



## Leslie_S (Aug 31, 2013)

Oh, I also did not mean to insinuate that I shall be dying soon either!


----------



## calisuzi (Apr 1, 2013)

That is what I was taught jelun, but guess I'm not as educated as some. Don't you just love the testiness?


----------



## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

Somebody pass more sauce, please.


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## calisuzi (Apr 1, 2013)

Janeway, if you were speaking to me I knit, don't often crochet and would love to be able to craft more but budget doesn't allow. Forced to retire due to COPD and now that I am better now jobs where I live.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> If you are born homosexual, Why are California and New Jersey afraid that Children can change their mind about being gay? Why are they afraid of someone telling the children they do not have to believe what they have been taught in school?
> 
> I wonder how many homosexuals are really happy with their life.
> 
> http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/08/19/new-jersey-to-outlaw-gay-conversion-therapy-for-minors/


You call that being "afraid" that the children can change their minds about being homosexual. I would call it being concerned that these children not be destroyed. Imagine being a child who believes they are gay and constantly being told, if you are, you are not ok. The following comes from your article. Would you rather do that to children? Would you subject your grand son to that kind of treatment?

The American Psychological Association has found that efforts to change sexual orientations can pose critical health risks including, but not limited to, depression, substance abuse, social withdrawal, decreased self-esteem and suicidal thoughts.


----------



## calisuzi (Apr 1, 2013)

So I'm not the only one feeling the anger? I personally don't have the energy to waste on it.


----------



## calisuzi (Apr 1, 2013)

Hope you're right Leslie, but really have no hope in any party. Have always voted Democrat and probably will continue to but they really aren't much better than the opposition. Problem is they are all for the most part politicians more concerned with themselves than with the vast majority of the population they are supposed to be serving. Guess I'm a bit jaded.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

blessedinMO said:


> Somebody pass more sauce, please.


I was going to ask you to pass the singing syrup to me but I am laughing so much at certain outrageous posts I am afraid I would spill more than I would drink. But I am not the most hated and hateful person on this site so I will not spill the sauce.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Calisuz
Vote the Peace and Freedon or Green party.

Remember West, Texas



calisuzi said:


> Hope you're right Leslie, but really have no hope in any party. Have always voted Democrat and probably will continue to but they really aren't much better than the opposition. Problem is they are all for the most part politicians more concerned with themselves than with the vast majority of the population they are supposed to be serving. Guess I'm a bit jaded.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Leslie_S said:


> OK. Now I shall make a prediction that is sure to make me popular. I am 63 years old, former republican who believes there will not be another republican president in the United States during my lifetime. I'm great in political science and demographics!


Leslie_S]OK
I am an other former Republican. Good to see you. Your predictions will come true. I have no doubt about that.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> But why can't the parents decide?


Because if parents would rather subject their child to that kind of treatment than allow them to be who they were meant to be, then it is obvious the parents are not being responsible parents. There is something wrong with you if you would rather your child be depressed, or on drugs or be suicidal than be gay.


----------



## Leslie_S (Aug 31, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Leslie_S]OK
> I am an other former Republican. Good to see you. Your predictions will come true. I have no doubt about that.


Thanks. I have always been right on the mark, as my son (also political science) will attest to!


----------



## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

Leslie_S said:


> OK. Now I shall make a prediction that is sure to make me popular. I am 63 years old, former republican who believes there will not be another republican president in the United States during my lifetime. I'm great in political science and demographics!


Probably not, since the Republicans have become 'Democrats Light'... or just full on Dems. But maybe we can hope for a true Conservative.... Eventually, when socialism fails and this country is totally screwed up, people may be ready to come back to the things that have always worked: Individualism, low taxes, deregulation, small government, working hard for what you have, getting to keep most of what you work for, and VOLUNTARY CHARITY towards the needy.


----------



## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

calisuzi said:


> susanmos2000,The righties as you named them never cease to amaze me with the stupidity they believe, they weary me to no end.


We feel the same about you.


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

calisuzi said:


> Janeway, if you were speaking to me I knit, don't often crochet and would love to be able to craft more but budget doesn't allow. Forced to retire due to COPD and now that I am better now jobs where I live.


Sorry you are having health difficulties. Sending hugs.


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> When everything else fails, claim disability. So sad for those who really suffer 24/7. Never see those wasting their Life with anger during the few minutes they may feel fairly good.


Get real, I'm disabled! You should be glad you have great health--would trade places with you any day as I don't think you would like one of my days!

I'm not angry I just reply to hateful people.


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> jelun2
> you can set your clock by their regular time and yes it seems that the liquid came out early today.


No, just people posting hateful remarks earlier--don't drink!


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I would rather the professional work with parents. Better yet I would not have put my children in Public school where the homosexual* LIFESTYLE* is glorified


If you are a parent that is upset about your child being gay and you take that child to a professional to change them, you are already not rational and will undoubtly make decisions that are not in the best interest of your child, so I don't think "working with the professional" is the answer. You and your child are there for the wrong reason and with the wrong type of professional. If your child believes they are gay and having problems because of it, they need a professional that will help them accept who they are whatever that might be, not one that will say, you don't have to be gay, we can change you. As far as public school, good for you, you can afford private school, which most people can't. If in public school they accept kids as they are instead of making them feel there is something wrong with them, then yay for public school. There is a difference between acceptance and glorification.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

jelun2 said:


> I sincerely hope that those who think they are going to communicate with me in the AM in order to annoy will come to understand that early in the day I really don't give a hairy rat's behind about what they think, what they say, or what they say they think.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:

I enjoy your attitude so much...AM or PM.


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

Leslie_S said:


> OK. Now I shall make a prediction that is sure to make me popular. I am 63 years old, former republican who believes there will not be another republican president in the United States during my lifetime. I'm great in political science and demographics!


Please give sites where I can read your predictions.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I was there and I'm still laughing. A great time was had by all.

Remember West Texas.



Poor Purl said:


> Please. She "had people looking all over for your group. You are the one who is caught with lies." If you didn't feel eyes boring into the back of your skull, you weren't there.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Intelligent friends can discuss politics, usually without mayhem. This Pub nonsense is way over the edge.



Leslie_S said:


> I used to be very conservative, but in the early '90s I switched to democrats. I did feel that the republican party was rather mean spirited during political campaigns. My best friend is republican, so I am going to put on my helmet right now! lol :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Kick him in the shins for me just in case. Thanks.

Remember West Texas.



jelun2 said:


> Oh heck, the whole bunch I live with covers the full spectrum from libertarian to knee jerk idiot. Now that I think of it, he could be knitwhoever except he is an atheist.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My sympathy. I love my empty nest, as much as I miss the grandkids.



Poor Purl said:


> You're lucky you have to wait for your daughter to call. My son, who just turned 39, moved back in with us a year ago when his apartment was invaded by mice, and he hasn't moved out. He's always around. I think this is what eternal life feels like, and I don't want any part of it.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Leslie_S said:


> OK. Now I shall make a prediction that is sure to make me popular. I am 63 years old, former republican who believes there will not be another republican president in the United States during my lifetime. I'm great in political science and demographics!


I like your prediction and I agree with it, and the republicans have done it to themselves. They are their own worst enemy. I will also predict that our next president will be a woman.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Why let the truth get in the way?

Remember West Texas.



Poor Purl said:


> According to medical reports from the hospital where he died, there were no signs of violence. There _was_ some internal bleeding due to smoke inhalation. But why believe medical reports when some anonymous bloggers know the real story?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No. We think you're dumb too.

Remember West Texas.



Knit crazy said:


> Well, the Republicans don't think the Democrats are too smart. You think we're mean. I guess it's a draw.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Good zinger Purl.

Remember West Texas.



Poor Purl said:


> I didn't know it was possible to be "too" smart. I guess for Republicans it is.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank God, no.



Poor Purl said:


> I guess this belongs on the "I've got a secret" thread, because they do manage to keep it a secret. Did you hear any of Michelle Bachmann's speech in Egypt yesterday?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Obviously their own company bores them. That's why they can't stay away from us.

Remember West Texas.



Cheeky Blighter said:


> Lies, lies and more lies joey. Why do you and your friends care at all about what we think? I wouldn't give two cents for what you or any of the right thinks. You are all a bunch of narrow minded, holy rollers who think you have all the answers. I believe you are afraid of us because we may be correct and what would that do to your belief system. It would be shattered into a million pieces and then where will you be? I know what I believe and I have nothing to fear especially people like you. You flatter yourself if you think I care about you. You have shown your true selves for what you are a bunch of terrified folks who are afraid of your own shadows. I sleep safe and secure knowing I am wrapped in the arms of my creator and I hope some day you can feel that security too and stop hating everything and everyone you don't understand. Show a little class and leave us in peace. I neither want or desire any interaction with any of you so do the Christian thing and play on D&P and if you can't remain civil go fight on S&O. You did not get an invitation to any of the Liberal threads and you are carrying on like a bunch of heathens jumping around and demanding that someone pay attention to you. How pitiful a site is that? Really, joey? Show a little self-control and start acting like an adult. Let's see, it's 1:05PM. When will the first one of you land on a liberal thread. You just can't resist us can you? Perhaps a little, jealousy?


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

damemary said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:
> 
> I enjoy your attitude so much...AM or PM.


Sad how the righties keep thinking somebody gives a rat's patutie about what they think or what their "religious" beliefs are. They are going under and fading fast damemary and terrified because the left is gaining steam. Their reign of terror will soon end and we will be free!

Let the joyous news be spread
The wicked, old witch at last is dead!

Ding-dong the witch is dead
Which old witch? The wicked witch!
Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead
Wake up you sleepyhead
Rub your eyes, get out of bed
Wake up the wicked witch is dead
She's gone where the goblins go,
Below - Below - Below
Yo-ho, let's open up and sing and ring the bells out.
Ding Dong's the merry-oh, sing it high, sing it low
Let them know the Wicked Witch is dead!

:thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Remember West Texas.



Cheeky Blighter said:


> You didn't answer the questions so I guess you don't know the answers. All we heard from the right was it was rape in Stephen's case. Do you know if the men involved were gay or straight? Was Stephens gay or straight or the man who penetrated his rectum, what was he? I would agree that Stephen's probably did not give consent but what about people who you posted above a man on man rape. It's you who needs a basic human biology class. Women can be sodomized too and so can children. Sodomy is placing a foreign object or a penis into someone's rectum. For many consulting adults this is normal practice for both men and women. You were the one that brought the topic up and it is obvious you do not understand the subject at hand so you just make things up along the way to "suit you own political agenda." The right callously and with a cold heart used this incident to try to self promote and all you did was make yourselves look like the fools that you are. Hillary was right, those dead weren't going to come back to life. She stated a fact and yes it may have sounded cold but it was the truth. Your bunch knowingly took advantage of a tragedy and didn't give a damn about those people! You are a bunch of phonys and the only people that don't see it is you. Benghazi my eye!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The only sex they find is on KP.



Huckleberry said:


> Sex is always a magnet for the Christian Ladies.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Hi Anne. Glad to have you aboard. IMHO you have nothing to apologize for. Besides, it only inflames the idiots who start these things. Cup of tea coming your way.



aw9358 said:


> You know I apologised, both publicly and privately. Please practise what you preach regarding "slamming".


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh you got it Girl!



jelun2 said:


> I can't help but notice it is always someone else's sex life that interests them. Have you seen that?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You're so British.



aw9358 said:


> I do not understand. It was horrifying enough to realise that my parents had sex. I don't want to think about what other people, of whatever orientation, get up to consensually in bed. It's none of my business.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You've caught on to that one too. Always deteriorates after happy hour(s).



jelun2 said:


> I think a few people have been hitting the sauce early.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

damemary said:


> You're so British.


Thanks, I think. A lovely cuppa would be most welcome.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

TY TY, damemary.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Another tidbit I'd like to share. A reminder. Not everything said by everybody is true. Sometimes it may seem a bid for sympathy or even pity. We all strangers sharing an interest in knitting and crochet. We find trustworthy friends for life sometimes. Other times we're left disappointed.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

YUp, sometimes it's for fun, sometimes not. 
Sometimes the fibs are so obvious it is laughable, sometimes they make one cry.



damemary said:


> Another tidbit I'd like to share. A reminder. Not everything said by everybody is true. Sometimes it may seem a bid for sympathy or even pity. We all strangers sharing an interest in knitting and crochet. We find trustworthy friends for life sometimes. Other times we're left disappointed.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And you're a wise woman. The Republicans have insulted every group that could help them get votes. Women, blacks, Hispanics, Gay & Lesbian groups.



Leslie_S said:


> OK. Now I shall make a prediction that is sure to make me popular. I am 63 years old, former republican who believes there will not be another republican president in the United States during my lifetime. I'm great in political science and demographics!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We got your back, Sister.



Leslie_S said:


> Oh, I also did not mean to insinuate that I shall be dying soon either!


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

NJG said:


> If you are a parent that is upset about your child being gay and you take that child to a professional to change them, you are already not rational and will undoubtly make decisions that are not in the best interest of your child, so I don't think "working with the professional" is the answer. You and your child are there for the wrong reason and with the wrong type of professional. If your child believes they are gay and having problems because of it, they need a professional that will help them accept who they are whatever that might be, not one that will say, you don't have to be gay, we can change you. As far as public school, good for you, you can afford private school, which most people can't. If in public school they accept kids as they are instead of making them feel there is something wrong with them, then yay for public school. There is a difference between acceptance and glorification.


NJG
you passed the Examination for Certification as Counselor. Congratulations.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> But why can't the parents decide?


joeysomma
a child's sexuality is none of the Parent's business. God made them that way. ".....in the Image of God".


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No. We all feel it. We also feel it is important not to let these vicious lies stand unanswered. But we try to stand together and discuss important topics of the day among ourselves.........let others speak for themselves....and try valiantly not to engage them. Back on the wagon. Thanks.

Remember West Texas.



calisuzi said:


> So I'm not the only one feeling the anger? I personally don't have the energy to waste on it.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> Another tidbit I'd like to share. A reminder. Not everything said by everybody is true. Sometimes it may seem a bid for sympathy or even pity. We all strangers sharing an interest in knitting and crochet. We find trustworthy friends for life sometimes. Other times we're left disappointed.


damemary
how right you are.


----------



## Chezl (Mar 12, 2012)

Okay, I now need to ask because I am an Aussie and I think I missed it. What happened in West Texas?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cheeky dance to one of my favorite tunes! All together!



Cheeky Blighter said:


> Sad how the righties keep thinking somebody gives a rat's patutie about what they think or what their "religious" beliefs are. They are going under and fading fast damemary and terrified because the left is gaining steam. Their reign of terror will soon end and we will be free!
> 
> Let the joyous news be spread
> The wicked, old witch at last is dead!
> ...


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Chezl said:


> Okay, I now need to ask because I am an Aussie and I think I missed it. What happened in West Texas?


Chezl
Welcome. A chemical Plant blew up and killed 15 if I remember right and the company will not allow authorities to go in and do inspections. They feel they are beyond the Law and behave as still in the Wild West days and can do as they like.

Remember West Texas


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

An horrific explosion in a fertilizer plant killing and maiming many in West Texas. Plant had other problems but kept getting away with it. News died away. Where's the outrage ?



Chezl said:


> Okay, I now need to ask because I am an Aussie and I think I missed it. What happened in West Texas?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Chezl said:


> Okay, I now need to ask because I am an Aussie and I think I missed it. What happened in West Texas?


http://www.dallasnews.com/news/west-explosion/headlines/20130824-after-west-disaster-news-study-finds-u.s.-chemical-safety-data-wrong-about-90-percent.ece


----------



## calisuzi (Apr 1, 2013)

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Pixiedust (Aug 30, 2013)

This analogy from joeysoma is terrible!
How many kids especially teens wake up in the morning and say "Gee, I think I will be gay?"
Homosexuality is not what they do, it is who they are as human beings.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Joey--So when did you decide you were straight? Was it a consciouos decision and you said I think I will be straight? 
So you think a 7 year old boy is choosing the gay lifestyle? 
Comparing choosing to steal something from the neighborhood gas station to choosing to be gay just shows your ignorance on the subject. 
Homophobia There is a cure--Educate yourself against ignorance.
As I have said before, be careful what you say. You may have a gay grandchild. How will you treat that child?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Sometimes I see that God wouldn't make an abomination argument and want to respond... "but he made you, didn't he?"



Pixiedust said:


> This analogy from joeysoma is terrible!
> How many kids especially teens wake up in the morning and say "Gee,I think I will be gay?"
> Homosexuality is not what they do, it is who they are as human beings.


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> If you are born homosexual, Why are California and New Jersey afraid that Children can change their mind about being gay? Why are they afraid of someone telling the children they do not have to believe what they have been taught in school?
> 
> I wonder how many homosexuals are really happy with their life.
> 
> http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/08/19/new-jersey-to-outlaw-gay-conversion-therapy-for-minors/


Let's see...are ALL heterosexuals really happy with their lives? Is what you are saying is that sex is the be all & end all of everyone's feelings about their lives? Most homosexuals are very happy with their lives, once they realize that they have to live for themselves, not for society. Do you know of the thousands of homosexuals who were so unhappy living heterosexual lives, married to the opposite sex, having children that they divorced their spouses & live their lives openly & very happily now? Do you also know that the children of these people are glad for their parent because the parent is now a happier person & they have close & wonderful relationships with this parent? 
You wonder if homosexuals are 'really happy' with their lives. They are, but, they would be much happier if society would quit making their lives an issue & just let them get on with their lives. How come no body cares what goes on in the bedrooms of straight people, but, think that gay people's lives should be an open book. BTW...straight people are more interested in kinky sex, pornography & child molestation than gay people are, but, for some reason this is acceptable because they are straight. Another fact...more straight people fantasize about homosexual acts than homesexuals fantasize about being straight. So, my question is this...why are straight people so obsessed with what homosexuals are doing?


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> My rapture comes when my daughter deems to call me. I have no interest in eternal life. This one was more than enough. I refuse to recycle.


HHAAAAA! SQM...one man was more than enough & so is one life, for me too. Now that my husband is gone, I intend to live my life, for however much of it remains, the way I see fit, when I see fit & how I see fit. Then I look forward to the peace & tranquility of heaven. Yes, I do believe in heaven because life has been hell.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Oh heck, it isn't just gays whose sex life they think about, is it? 
Why are the most conservative states the ones that have the most people accessing porn? 
Could it be because those "ladies" can't provide what excites their men so they have to cruise the internet to get aroused?
Why are they so offended by the idea of women getting birth control through their health insurance? I am guessing that it is something like if they can't have any fun then neither should those other people.



kneonknitter said:


> Let's see...are ALL heterosexuals really happy with their lives? Is what you are saying is that sex is the be all & end all of everyone's feelings about their lives? Most homosexuals are very happy with their lives, once they realize that they have to live for themselves, not for society. Do you know of the thousands of homosexuals who were so unhappy living heterosexual lives, married to the opposite sex, having children that they divorced their spouses & live their lives openly & very happily now? Do you also know that the children of these people are glad for their parent because the parent is now a happier person & they have close & wonderful relationships with this parent?
> You wonder if homosexuals are 'really happy' with their lives. They are, but, they would be much happier if society would quit making their lives an issue & just let them get on with their lives. How come no body cares what goes on in the bedrooms of straight people, but, think that gay people's lives should be an open book. BTW...straight people are more interested in kinky sex, pornography & child molestation than gay people are, but, for some reason this is acceptable because they are straight. Another fact...more straight people fantasize about homosexual acts than homesexuals fantasize about being straight. So, my question is this...why are straight people so obsessed with what homosexuals are doing?


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I had an aunt and uncle (and 2 cousins) living in the Pomonok houses. I, too, spent my formative years living in the projects. As for Coney, we never went to the beach there, only for the rides and the Tuesday night fireworks. We went to Brighton Beach, where I had yet more uncles and aunts and cousins. My parents were the only people in our extended family who lived in Manhattan, and that was just on the Lower East Side.
> 
> In adulthood I worked in Flatbush and then later in Bay Ridge, so those are the two parts of Bklyn I know best.
> 
> Thanks for the trip.


Well it seems we have been living parallel lives. I, too, had Brighton Beach relatives & we would walk the boardwalk from Coney to Brighton to visit them. I had family in Bay Ridge & the last time I was there it was still a beautiful part of Brooklyn. My husband's family was from the lower east side, as was he, until his immediate family moved to Pomonok. Would you mind PM me your Pomonok relatives names? I am curious as to whether I know them. In fact, we have an FB group dedicated just to Pomonok. Please also tell me your name in the PM?


----------



## calisuzi (Apr 1, 2013)

Have you ever heard of birth defects and which god are you speaking of anyway?


----------



## calisuzi (Apr 1, 2013)

How did we get on homosexuals anyway, what did I miss??


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

I think that Joeywhatshisname started it a few pages back.



calisuzi said:


> How did we get on homosexuals anyway, what did I miss??


----------



## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

this is mind numbing.


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> God will not make something that is an abomination.
> 
> He mad them boy and girl and gave them free choice. If they choose the gay *LIFESTYLE* that is their choice.
> 
> If your child made the choice to take things from the neighborhood gas station/store. Would you say "it is their choice and it is none of my business?"


Excuse me, but, I do not appreciate you calling my child an abomination. G-d DID make him, made him the way he is & loves him the way he is. If G-d thought gays were an abomination, they wouldn't exist. You know what all you bible thumpers here fail to recognize? The bible is like the game telephone. It was not WRITTEN by G-d. It was written by man, who wrote down his own INTERPERTATIONS of what he heard, just like the last person on the 'telephone' repeats what he THINKS he heard. You and people like you are the abomination!!


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> You are hopeless!


Yes, Joey those who are replying to you are just a bunch of bullies who are on KP just to harass anyone who does not agree with them. They have not grown up to reside in the "real" world so they have found others who are stuck in the same age.

Talk about silly people!


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> I think that Joeywhatshisname started it a few pages back.


Some people could not get into the original intent. What is your most outrageous political action? I really did not care if it was from a progressive, liberal, conservative, or libertarian just the idea of non traditional political action. The amount of vitrol expressed is lethal to productive discourse. And it comes from both sides. Why must every political thread devolve into middle school drama?


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

jelun2 said:


> I think that Joeywhatshisname started it a few pages back.


Well you are jelun2whatitsnameeverwillbe! Shame on you for slamming Joey's name!


----------



## Janeway (Nov 22, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Some people could not get into the original intent. What is your most outrageous political action? I really did not care if it was from a progressive, liberal, conservative, or libertarian just the idea of non traditional political action. The amount of vitrol expressed is lethal to productive discourse. And it comes from both sides. Why must every political thread devolve into middle school drama?


Yes, I agree, but as you can read, every word we type, the "bad girls club" has to bully as it is the only thing they know how to do in life.

I looked up your symbol that is your Avatar & found it was interesting.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Our DNA composition is not a choice. Male and female is not a choice unless it is a medical procedure. Hetrosexuality and homosexuality is not a conscious choice.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Janeway said:


> Yes, I agree, but as you can read, every word we type, the "bad girls club" has to bully as it is the only thing they know how to do in life.
> 
> I looked up your symbol that is your Avatar & found it was interesting.


What interested you most about the Hamsa?


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

kneonknitter said:


> Excuse me, but, I do not appreciate you calling my child an abomination. G-d DID make him, made him the way he is & loves him the way he is. If G-d thought gays were an abomination, they wouldn't exist. You know what all you bible thumpers here fail to recognize? The bible is like the game telephone. It was not WRITTEN by G-d. It was written by man, who wrote down his own INTERPERTATIONS of what he heard, just like the last person on the 'telephone' repeats what he THINKS he heard. You and people like you are the abomination!!


kneonknitter
I so agree with everything you said. Thank you for speaking up.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

It is always the Bible Thumpers who behave the worst towards their fellow Men. Despicable is the crap they come up with. Unfortunately there is no Hell in which they should spend eternity.

Remember West, Texas
15 dead and many injured.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Why should he ask forgiveness of a God that made him the way he is?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> he chose the lifestyle. and God gave him free will


It is not a life _style_, Joey it's a life. If God gives him a choice, why should he choose to live a lie?


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## Jeannne (Jan 25, 2013)

I am behind in reading the KP newsletters, so I opened this thread on Sept. 10. I got as far as page 10, and would like to keep going because the replies to the original posed question - how have you participated with an action to bring about change - have been so interesting. But because it is late, I skipped to page 56 to see where the discussion has been going. Sadly, I see that most of these later posts are from the same persons I recognize from other threads, with comments that do not stay on topic, that are disrespectful of others' opinions, and even hateful. This is so sad.

But I do want to say that while I used to be the person who avoided talking politics and religion at all costs, I now realize that change will not happen without discussion, and there is so much that needs to change. I feel that we all have a duty to help make the world a little better, before we die. I am grateful to find an outlet for this on KP. Yes, I came for the knitting, but I'm staying for the chance to connect with others all over the globe.


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> It is always the Bible Thumpers who behave the worst towards their fellow Men. Despicable is the crap they come up with. Unfortunately there is no Hell in which they should spend eternity.
> 
> Remember West, Texas
> 15 dead and many injured.


Very true Huckleberry, but, there is an upside. I believe that we all have to face G-d when we die before we are allowed in to heaven. G-d proceeds to show us our lives, what we did right & what we did wrong. There are levels to climb to get in to heaven. Praise from G-d moves you up a level. Admonition from Him leaves you at the level you are at & you cannot go up another level until you have thought about the deed he admonished you for, realized what was wrong about the deed & then truly repented for the act. We then tell Him what our soul searching taught us & if He is satisfied that we have truly repented in our hearts, he allows us to move up another level. At some point we reach the Pearly Gates & are allowed in. Some of us will reach the Pearly Gates way faster than others, some of us at the same time & others will never reach them because they never truly see or understand the wrongs they have done & therefore, can never truly repent for them. I consider that hell!


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## Nussa (Jul 7, 2011)

Man wrote the Bible......God gave them free will as to what they chose to put into it. Man is a biased breed, and fallible.

If someone is born gay......that is the way God meant for them to be.

God did not make you judge, jury & executioner....Let God be the judge.....you just wait your turn like the rest of us. You might be surprised to find out how wrong you've been.
JMO.


joeysomma said:


> he chose the lifestyle. and G
> od gave him free will


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Nussa said:


> Man wrote the Bible......God gave them free will as to what they chose to put into it. Man is a biased breed, and fallible.
> 
> If someone is born gay......that is the way God meant for them to be.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> It says in the Bible that a man that sleeps with man or a woman that sleeps with woman is an abomination in His sight. I did not call your child that, I am repeating what is says in the Bible. He still can ask forgiveness for his lifestyle.
> 
> I believe that the Bible is the Inspired Word of the Living God


I am not going to debate this or argue with you joeysomma because you are an idiot, IMHO. Doing so would be a huge waste of my time & energy & you & others like you are not worth it. Bye.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Why should he ask forgiveness of a God that made him the way he is?


Well said BrattyPatty, VERY well said!!


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> he chose the lifestyle. and God gave him free will


G-d chose the life for him & gave him the free will to follow G-d's plan for him so shut the f--- up you hypocritical sob. If you are as Christian as you claim how can you judge others so harshly? Let the 1st one without sin cast the 1st stone.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I had an aunt and uncle (and 2 cousins) living in the Pomonok houses. I, too, spent my formative years living in the projects. As for Coney, we never went to the beach there, only for the rides and the Tuesday night fireworks. We went to Brighton Beach, where I had yet more uncles and aunts and cousins. My parents were the only people in our extended family who lived in Manhattan, and that was just on the Lower East Side.
> 
> In adulthood I worked in Flatbush and then later in Bay Ridge, so those are the two parts of Bklyn I know best.
> 
> Thanks for the trip.


Wow! Small world! I spent many days as a child in Brooklyn in the Flatbush area. My grandmother lived there on Bedford Ave between Flatbush and Nostrand. My godmother lived in Bay Ridge on Shore Rd.
My family lived in Breezy Point. Purl,we used to sit on the docks at Breezy Point bayside and watch the fireworks from Coney Island on Tuesday nights. 
I took my daughter back to New York 2 years ago, well actually she took me! The night we got in we went to Coney Island with my cousins. It was fun to go to the boardwalk and look across at Breezy/Rockaway Point. We stayed wih family in Staten Island. The next day we took the Staten Island Ferry into Manhattan and walked over the Brooklyn Bridge to a diner so my daughter could have her first egg cream. Then we hopped a subway to Little Italy (which is not so much Little Italy anymore) to have lunch. Next day it was 5th Ave and Central Park. My daughter bought a bagel and wanted to go to Tiffany's. When we got there she started eating the bagel outside. Yes, Breakfast at Tiffany's. She's quirky like that.
Then it was 2 days at the Jersey Shore for some R&R.
I love New York!
My grandmother grew up on the lower east side on Water St.
Do we know each other? Could we be related? LOL


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

Nussa said:


> Man wrote the Bible......God gave them free will as to what they chose to put into it. Man is a biased breed, and fallible.
> 
> If someone is born gay......that is the way God meant for them to be.
> 
> ...


Perfectly said Nussa!


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## Nussa (Jul 7, 2011)

Thank you. All it takes is common sense.


kneonknitter said:


> Perfectly said Nussa!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Pixiedust said:


> This analogy from joeysoma is terrible!
> How many kids especially teens wake up in the morning and say "Gee, I think I will be gay?"
> Homosexuality is not what they do, it is who they are as human beings.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

kneonknitter said:


> Let's see...are ALL heterosexuals really happy with their lives? Is what you are saying is that sex is the be all & end all of everyone's feelings about their lives? Most homosexuals are very happy with their lives, once they realize that they have to live for themselves, not for society. Do you know of the thousands of homosexuals who were so unhappy living heterosexual lives, married to the opposite sex, having children that they divorced their spouses & live their lives openly & very happily now? Do you also know that the children of these people are glad for their parent because the parent is now a happier person & they have close & wonderful relationships with this parent?
> You wonder if homosexuals are 'really happy' with their lives. They are, but, they would be much happier if society would quit making their lives an issue & just let them get on with their lives. How come no body cares what goes on in the bedrooms of straight people, but, think that gay people's lives should be an open book. BTW...straight people are more interested in kinky sex, pornography & child molestation than gay people are, but, for some reason this is acceptable because they are straight. Another fact...more straight people fantasize about homosexual acts than homesexuals fantasize about being straight. So, my question is this...why are straight people so obsessed with what homosexuals are doing?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Wow! Small world! I spent many days as a child in Brooklyn in the Flatbush area. My grandmother lived there on Bedford Ave between Flatbush and Nostrand. My godmother lived in Bay Ridge on Shore Rd.
> My family lived in Breezy Point. I took my daughter back to New York 2 years ago, well actually she took me! The night we got in we went to Coney Island with my cousins. It was fun to go to the boardwalk and look across at Breezy/Rockaway Point. We stayed wih family in Staten Island. The next day we took the Staten Island Ferry into Manhattan and walked over the Brooklyn Bridge to a diner so my daughter could have her first egg cream. Then we hopped a subway to Little Italy (which is not so much Little Italy anymore) to have lunch.
> Then it was 2 days at the Jersey Shore for some R&R.
> I love New York!


Egg Cream? Little Italy?? O. M. G. I am sooooo jealous right now! lol. Seriously tho, it sounds like you & DD had a very enjoyable time. Good for you!


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Jeannne said:


> I am behind in reading the KP newsletters, so I opened this thread on Sept. 10. I got as far as page 10, and would like to keep going because the replies to the original posed question - how have you participated with an action to bring about change - have been so interesting. But because it is late, I skipped to page 56 to see where the discussion has been going. Sadly, I see that most of these later posts are from the same persons I recognize from other threads, with comments that do not stay on topic, that are disrespectful of others' opinions, and even hateful. This is so sad.
> 
> But I do want to say that while I used to be the person who avoided talking politics and religion at all costs, I now realize that change will not happen without discussion, and there is so much that needs to change. I feel that we all have a duty to help make the world a little better, before we die. I am grateful to find an outlet for this on KP. Yes, I came for the knitting, but I'm staying for the chance to connect with others all over the globe.


It went downhill pretty quickly.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I just wanted to say I enjoy reading the discussion...even if it strays from the initial question. This thread is at the top of my Watched List. Soon. Bazinga.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Bazinga little cherub! Or striped tiger!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

kneonknitter said:


> Egg Cream? Little Italy?? O. M. G. I am sooooo jealous right now! lol. Seriously tho, it sounds like you & DD had a very enjoyable time. Good for you!


Little Italy has been taken over by Chinese souvenir shops. A handful of Italian restaurants are still running on Mulberry St and Mott St. My fav is the Palermo Cafe. They make the best canolli in the city. Most of the famous Italian restaurants moved downtown. I had to laugh.We ate in the courtyard at Bella Notte and there was a clothesline strung between 2 buildings with bras, panties and cami's. It really gave it the old neighborhood charm. But being served by Columbian waiters saying "Mange, Mange!" just didn't sound right lol.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Glad you noticed Patty. I think I like to be a bit of both.



BrattyPatty said:


> Bazinga little cherub! Or striped tiger!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

It suits you well, Dame!


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## Chezl (Mar 12, 2012)

Thank you for telling me about West Texas. I did hear about some of it over here but just the first news.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Exactly. We feel it should be remembered.

This is also a reference to ultra-conservative bleats about Bengazi for ages, well after the event was examined and people arrested.



Chezl said:


> Thank you for telling me about West Texas. I did hear about some of it over here but just the first news.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Damemary I love your new avatar. Such a beautiful creature.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Little Italy has been taken over by Chinese souvenir shops. A handful of Italian restaurants are still running on Mulberry St and Mott St. My fav is the Palermo Cafe. They make the best canolli in the city. Most of the famous Italian restaurants moved downtown. I had to laugh.We ate in the courtyard at Bella Notte and there was a clothesline strung between 2 buildings with bras, panties and cami's. It really gave it the old neighborhood charm. But being served by Columbian waiters saying "Mange, Mange!" just didn't sound right lol.


lololol. My brother in law was NYPD for 20 years & 3 years ago he & I decided to go to Manhattan for the day. Of course no way could we miss Little Italy & Chinatown. I was so lucky, I even found a parking spot, so we got out & walked around. We spent about an hour, went back to the car & sat there staring at each other in utter disbelief!! We were speechless & for about 5 minutes all we could say was 'what the hell happened???' I felt like crying. Gone were the restaurants in the basements that had menus written only in Chinese, that were still open at 3 a.m. Gone were the restaurants that had NO menus. You sat down at a table & said 'House Special' & you never knew what the waiter was going to bring, but, you knew it was going to be absolutely delicious. Gone were the Italian bakeries that sold REAL Italian pastries, REAL cannolis & fresh pizza dough. Time marches on huh?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Is such a specific question thread meant to go on for several days? After one response per person who is interested, then a couple of responses to those descriptions. It is pretty much done minus the foolish volleys that most of us can't be bothered to read. 
There isn't the history on a lot of news sites, I am sure you have seen it though, name calling, threats, too much testosterone. At least we don't have that here.



peacegoddess said:


> Some people could not get into the original intent. What is your most outrageous political action? I really did not care if it was from a progressive, liberal, conservative, or libertarian just the idea of non traditional political action. The amount of vitrol expressed is lethal to productive discourse. And it comes from both sides. Why must every political thread devolve into middle school drama?


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

9/11 We lost lives and we remember and regret the loss of life, but we lost parts of our democracy. This is the conclusion of a long article about those losses. To read the complete article google 
The Center For Constitutional Rights


Conclusion  bringing power back to the people
Ten years on from the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, at the end of the distressing decade defined by those attacks, we find ourselves in a position where the president has claimed more power than ever and the people have conceded more power than ever. Ten years ago, federal trials were the norm for alleged criminal terroristic activity; now, the default method is military show trials that include the death penalty or indefinite or preventive detention. Ten years on from 9/11, more illegal wars are being fought today than under Bush, more laws are subverted in the name of national security, more people are being deported than at any point in our history, and the executive branch has seized or accrued more power than it has ever had.
In the end, the test of our democracy is to look at the actions that have been done in our name and under our watch  the wars, the repression, the extra-judicial detention and killings, the torture, the profiling  and ask ourselves: are we in a better position now to stop the acts that continue, to ensure that they dont happen in the future, to ensure that the officials are held accountable, and to put the presidency back in the constitutional box than we were 10 years ago?
The answer to that is yes, to the extent that we are able to demand that our government end the lawlessness, stop stockpiling constitutional power and move back towards a path of lawful, democratic action, but the restoration of the values that we hold dear requires concerted action by many people.
The 10th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks is a painful anniversary, but let us also make it the occasion when, en masse, we say to the government, Enough is enough, and demand an end to the ongoing injustices, and the return of our values.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

NJG said:


> You call that being "afraid" that the children can change their minds about being homosexual. I would call it being concerned that these children not be destroyed. Imagine being a child who believes they are gay and constantly being told, if you are, you are not ok. The following comes from your article. Would you rather do that to children? Would you subject your grand son to that kind of treatment?
> 
> The American Psychological Association has found that efforts to change sexual orientations can pose critical health risks including, but not limited to, depression, substance abuse, social withdrawal, decreased self-esteem and suicidal thoughts.


These same symptoms can be applied to the children who where brought up being taught that there are no winners or losers. These kids can't handle the real world once they realize that there are indeed winners and the winners are successful, while the losers are not. The kids were not taught to learn from losses or failures, that it is a part of life. It's no wonder these kids are so screwed up.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> These same symptoms can be applied to the children who where brought up being taught that there are no winners or losers. These kids can't handle the real world once they realize that there are indeed winners and the winners are successful, while the losers are not. The kids were not taught to learn from losses or failures, that it is a part of life. It's no wonder these kids are so screwed up.


Sorry, the fact of being gay does not make one a "loser". It simply IS, like skin or eye color. It's a shame that some people still don't understand that.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Confounding that a person can't understand the educational system after all these years thinks they have a handle on the human genome. 
Let's start teaching that man and dinosaurs were on Earth simultaneously, that will fix it all.



susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry, the fact of being gay does not make one a "loser". It simply IS, like skin or eye color. It's a shame that some people still don't understand that.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

kneonknitter said:


> G-d chose the life for him & gave him the free will to follow G-d's plan for him so shut the f--- up you hypocritical sob. If you are as Christian as you claim how can you judge others so harshly? Let the 1st one without sin cast the 1st stone.


You've just topped the heap of KP BSers. After ranting how it would be a huge waste of your time to respond to Joey, here you are responding to her yet again. You are just as pathetic as the rest of your bunch.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Keep on going, Jeanne, thoughtful commentary is always welcome. Please help change the percentages.



Jeannne said:


> I am behind in reading the KP newsletters, so I opened this thread on Sept. 10. I got as far as page 10, and would like to keep going because the replies to the original posed question - how have you participated with an action to bring about change - have been so interesting. But because it is late, I skipped to page 56 to see where the discussion has been going. Sadly, I see that most of these later posts are from the same persons I recognize from other threads, with comments that do not stay on topic, that are disrespectful of others' opinions, and even hateful. This is so sad.
> 
> But I do want to say that while I used to be the person who avoided talking politics and religion at all costs, I now realize that change will not happen without discussion, and there is so much that needs to change. I feel that we all have a duty to help make the world a little better, before we die. I am grateful to find an outlet for this on KP. Yes, I came for the knitting, but I'm staying for the chance to connect with others all over the globe.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

damemary said:


> Exactly. We feel it should be remembered.
> 
> This is also a reference to ultra-conservative bleats about Bengazi for ages, well after the event was examined and people arrested.


Who was arrested? Last I heard the FBI had at least 14 POIs but no arrests were made because the Libyans are not being cooperative.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

kneonknitter said:


> lololol. My brother in law was NYPD for 20 years & 3 years ago he & I decided to go to Manhattan for the day. Of course no way could we miss Little Italy & Chinatown. I was so lucky, I even found a parking spot, so we got out & walked around. We spent about an hour, went back to the car & sat there staring at each other in utter disbelief!! We were speechless & for about 5 minutes all we could say was 'what the hell happened???' I felt like crying. Gone were the restaurants in the basements that had menus written only in Chinese, that were still open at 3 a.m. Gone were the restaurants that had NO menus. You sat down at a table & said 'House Special' & you never knew what the waiter was going to bring, but, you knew it was going to be absolutely delicious. Gone were the Italian bakeries that sold REAL Italian pastries, REAL cannolis & fresh pizza dough. Time marches on huh?


It didn't take long. I was back there 2 years prior to the last visit. Little Italy still had the restaurants and bakeries. Chinatown was on the other side of Canal St.
The Feast of San Genero is threatened, because the Chinese don't want to close their stores for the day.
4 of my cousins ( all brothers)were NYPD. They are all retired now in their early 40's. 1 was killed in the line. His wife is still a cop.
You got that right about the pizza! Best pizza in the world is served in NY.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

As does the hike in rent.



kneonknitter said:


> lololol. My brother in law was NYPD for 20 years & 3 years ago he & I decided to go to Manhattan for the day. Of course no way could we miss Little Italy & Chinatown. I was so lucky, I even found a parking spot, so we got out & walked around. We spent about an hour, went back to the car & sat there staring at each other in utter disbelief!! We were speechless & for about 5 minutes all we could say was 'what the hell happened???' I felt like crying. Gone were the restaurants in the basements that had menus written only in Chinese, that were still open at 3 a.m. Gone were the restaurants that had NO menus. You sat down at a table & said 'House Special' & you never knew what the waiter was going to bring, but, you knew it was going to be absolutely delicious. Gone were the Italian bakeries that sold REAL Italian pastries, REAL cannolis & fresh pizza dough. Time marches on huh?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> You've just topped the heap of KP BSers. After ranting how it would be a huge waste of your time to respond to Joey, here you are responding to her yet again. You are just as pathetic as the rest of your bunch.


If you don't like the people here solowey, you don't have to stay.
Just ignore her kneon. She is tied in with the rest of the stalkers.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry, the fact of being gay does not make one a "loser". It simply IS, like skin or eye color. It's a shame that some people still don't understand that.


I never said it did. I was NOT referring to homosexuals. It's a shame that some people cannot comprehend what is written.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> These same symptoms can be applied to the children who where brought up being taught that there are no winners or losers. These kids can't handle the real world once they realize that there are indeed winners and the winners are successful, while the losers are not. The kids were not taught to learn from losses or failures, that it is a part of life. It's no wonder these kids are so screwed up.


soloweygirl
your outlook on Life is dreadful. Why are your children not doing so well? My Heart goes out to them.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> I never said it did. I was NOT referring to homosexuals. It's a shame that some people cannot comprehend what is written.


What is the real shame here is that you and your buddies can't stay away from any thread started by a lib. 
Is D&P getting too boring for you? Nobody arguing with you in 
S&O?

Once again, just ignore her. She's here just to be prickly.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Why is there so much encouragement to embrace homosexuality? Having any kind of sex before they are 18 is statutory rape. I know the current government does not prosecute these crimes as they should. Why don't we just let kids be kids?


We are joey, even homosexual kids.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> You've just topped the heap of KP BSers. After ranting how it would be a huge waste of your time to respond to Joey, here you are responding to her yet again. You are just as pathetic as the rest of your bunch.


soloweygirl
take care of your own kids and leave those of others in Peace.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Why is there so much encouragement to embrace homosexuality? Having any kind of sex before they are 18 is statutory rape. I know the current government does not prosecute these crimes as they should. Why don't we just let kids be kids?


joeysomma
well, my guess is that you would like to go back to the ways of your Ancestors. Marry in your early teens to have many years of childbearing to have plenty free help in the Fields. Stop pointing your nasty fingers at today's youth, they will be doing fine if you stop being hateful to them.


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## calisuzi (Apr 1, 2013)

joeysmomma not everyone believes in the bible, why must you always refer to the bible, there are ever so many who really don't give two hoots in hell what it says in the bible.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Look it up. Links have been provided numerous times.

I know you're not interested and you don't believe anything you don't hear through blogs. This is the wrong place for you so low.



soloweygirl said:


> Who was arrested? Last I heard the FBI had at least 14 POIs but no arrests were made because the Libyans are not being cooperative.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Why is there so much encouragement to embrace homosexuality? Having any kind of sex before they are 18 is statutory rape. I know the current government does not prosecute these crimes as they should. Why don't we just let kids be kids?


I started this reply a few times but to be honest I'm speechless. Your mind is a strange and dark place.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

calisuzi said:


> joeysmomma not everyone believes in the bible, why must you always refer to the bible, there are ever so many who really don't give two hoots in hell what it says in the bible.


Nicely put.


----------



## Leslie_S (Aug 31, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> I started this reply a few times but to be honest I'm speechless. Your mind is a strange and dark place.


Joeysomma's statements thru this thread are very scary to read. Perhaps she is impaired in her thinking. Even Jesus would not agree with her, IMO.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Leslie_S said:


> Joeysomma's statements thru this thread are very scary to read. Perhaps she is impaired in her thinking. Even Jesus would not agree with her, IMO.


Desmond Tutu said recently that he would not want to go to a homophobic heaven. I think I prefer his version of Christianity.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> They were


I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Unless it's the best satire I've read for a long, long time.


----------



## YourLuckyEwe (Jul 2, 2011)

And I'll bet Empressnan had the whitehouse fumigated afterwards. 
I'm originally from SF also.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Why is there so much encouragement to embrace homosexuality? Having any kind of sex before they are 18 is statutory rape. I know the current government does not prosecute these crimes as they should. Why don't we just let kids be kids?


We are letting kids be kids. You are the one that brought up gay conversion therapy, which turns out to be a way to destroy kids. Have you not heard and read all the stories of young people, teenagers and younger, committing suicide because they are gay and not accepted by parents like you and others that preach hate. Is it parents like you teaching their kids that to be gay is wrong, so the poor child lives with that feeling untill he ends up committing suicide? You believe homosexuality is as abomination, but how do you think that sounds to a child if they believe thay might be gay. Embracing homosexuality does not mean we are encouraging anyone to have sex. Homosexuality is a whole lot more than just the sexual act. As I said before there is a cure for homophobia. Educate yourself against ignorance. This is 2013, and things are different than they were in the 50's. Crawl out of the bible and look at the real world. Your grandchildren have to live in this world.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Unless it's the best satire I've read for a long, long time.


Actually, I was in a Christian bookstore once and saw there a page in a coloring book showing Adam and Eve riding a dinosaur. Really the strangest thing I'd ever seen--until I started reading the rightie posts here on KP, of course.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Actually, I was in a Christian bookstore once and saw there a page in a coloring book showing Adam and Eve riding a dinosaur. Really the strangest thing I'd ever seen--until I started reading the rightie posts here on KP, of course.


There is a museum in Kentucky which shows exactly this kind of thing - dinosaurs and people living at the same time. It cost millions to build and seems to be thriving. My poor husband, an ardent Humanist and atheist, is pretty embarrassed by having this in his home state.


----------



## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry, the fact of being gay does not make one a "loser". It simply IS, like skin or eye color. It's a shame that some people still don't understand that.


I have spent the better part of 3 days on this thread, said what I have had to say & realize now that you just can't fix stupid. I am out of here. I have lots of knitting to catch up on. Bye!


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> There is a museum in Kentucky which shows exactly this kind of thing - dinosaurs and people living at the same time. It cost millions to build and seems to be thriving. My poor husband, an ardent Humanist and atheist, is pretty embarrassed by having this in his home state.


I'd love to feast my eyes on THAT--but only if it was free. I don't think I could live with myself if I contributed even one cent toward the promotion of such ignorance.

One thing I can't figure out--I know many (most?) fundamentalists believe man has only been around for six thousand years. If dinosaurs lived at the same time, what the heck do the ultra-Christians think wiped them out? A mini-Ice Age and/or asteroid?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

kneonknitter said:


> I have spent the better part of 3 days on this thread, said what I have had to say & realize now that you just can't fix stupid. I am out of here. I have lots of knitting to catch up on. Bye!


Bye, Kneonknitter. I've so enjoyed your posts!


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

sussanmos, fairy tales aren't always exactly logical!


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> sussanmos, fairy tales aren't always exactly logical!


True enough, Pardo--logic has absolutely nothing to do with it. Maybe such folks have watched one too many Flintstones cartoons.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> a flood


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> a flood. Most of them died. After the flood, their lifespan was not as long. If you remember from biology, a reptile never stops growing.


But, wasn't Noah supposed to have put two of everything on the arc? Were the dinosaurs sterile?


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

The reptiles that are similar to dinosaurs, only smaller, perhaps, are that way because they evolved.


----------



## Leslie_S (Aug 31, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> He did not necessarily put 2 of every type of dinosaur on the ARK. Just like he did not put 2 of every type of dog on the ark. There were 7 of certain animals and 5 were used for food while they were on the ark. There are reptiles that the scientists have found to be similar to what history calls dinosaurs. Many species of animals have become extinct in 6000 years.


OH, I just don't know whether to laugh or cry. ROFL!!! A kindergarten dissertation. No, below that level...


----------



## Leslie_S (Aug 31, 2013)

Ooey Gooey was a worm, a mighty worm was he. He stepped upon the railroad track; the train he did not see... Choo...
choo...sputter...sputter...Ooey Gooey peanut butter! 

I don't think I'm too far off the topic.


----------



## Leslie_S (Aug 31, 2013)

Sorry Joeysomma,

I am sure that is truly what you believe, bless your heart.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Leslie_S said:


> Ooey Gooey was a worm, a mighty worm was he. He stepped upon the railroad track; the train he did not see... Choo...
> choo...sputter...sputter...Ooey Gooey peanut butter!
> 
> I don't think I'm too far off the topic.


OMG! That was the best response possible! Can we get back on track with wild political acts please?

I am planning on expanding my medicinal herb garden as I am reading about insurance companies resurecting the idea of denying birth control costs. The insurance company pays for the drugs for the guy to get it up. but not for birth control. Where is the logic? Oopps no logic, just misogney!


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

calisuzi said:


> joeysmomma not everyone believes in the bible, why must you always refer to the bible, there are ever so many who really don't give two hoots in hell what it says in the bible.


calisuzi
I don't think these Bible thumpers ever get the message that they are out of line most of the time with their religious flaunting.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Leslie_S said:


> OH, I just don't know whether to laugh or cry. ROFL!!! A kindergarten dissertation. No, below that level...


Leslie
anyone of us have a childcare license? I don't.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Leslie
> anyone of us have a childcare license? I don't.


Current child development theories emphasize accuracy. there are fairy tales and then there is people on the earth in the time of dinosaurs......just wrong info.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

I want to know how often anyone has documented riding inside a whale.



pardoquilts said:


> But, wasn't Noah supposed to have put two of everything on the arc? Were the dinosaurs sterile?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

I see that once again the Bible is accurate except when it isn't.



pardoquilts said:


> The reptiles that are similar to dinosaurs, only smaller, perhaps, are that way because they evolved.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Why are you even discussing this? It didn't happen.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Never mind, EVEN Jesus... a caring man would be first in line to strike down the pride shown by these socalled Christians.



Leslie_S said:


> Joeysomma's statements thru this thread are very scary to read. Perhaps she is impaired in her thinking. Even Jesus would not agree with her, IMO.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

The most famous of the centers disband and apologize.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun/20/local/la-me-ln-exodus-international-from-pray-away-the-gay-to-acceptance-20130620



NJG said:


> We are letting kids be kids. You are the one that brought up gay conversion therapy, which turns out to be a way to destroy kids. Have you not heard and read all the stories of young people, teenagers and younger, committing suicide because they are gay and not accepted by parents like you and others that preach hate. Is it parents like you teaching their kids that to be gay is wrong, so the poor child lives with that feeling untill he ends up committing suicide? You believe homosexuality is as abomination, but how do you think that sounds to a child if they believe thay might be gay. Embracing homosexuality does not mean we are encouraging anyone to have sex. Homosexuality is a whole lot more than just the sexual act. As I said before there is a cure for homophobia. Educate yourself against ignorance. This is 2013, and things are different than they were in the 50's. Crawl out of the bible and look at the real world. Your grandchildren have to live in this world.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> There is a museum in Kentucky which shows exactly this kind of thing - dinosaurs and people living at the same time. It cost millions to build and seems to be thriving. My poor husband, an ardent Humanist and atheist, is pretty embarrassed by having this in his home state.


Yes, indeed. I think that I read recently that they are running out of funds.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Come on back in when you need a break. I was nice to read you.



kneonknitter said:


> I have spent the better part of 3 days on this thread, said what I have had to say & realize now that you just can't fix stupid. I am out of here. I have lots of knitting to catch up on. Bye!


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Where is the hate in my statement? I have questions and you gave no answers.


joeysomma
your problem is that you no longer know when you are attacking others. It is such a constant and it takes many of us to make you aware of it over and over and over again.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> Why are you even discussing this? It didn't happen.


No--but it's fun imagining poor Noah trying to jam a herd of dinosaurs into an ark measuring 300 X 50 X 30 cubits. Maybe that's why they went extinct--during all that time at sea the T-Rex ate them up.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> I want to know how often anyone has documented riding inside a whale.


jelun2
and then there is there are those Aliens paying visits to certain folks. Ever tried to guess their IQs?


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> The Bible says it was a great fish, not a whale.
> 
> Scientific explanation included:
> 
> http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v1/n1/great-fish


So how is this an outrageous political act?


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

damemary said:


> An horrific explosion in a fertilizer plant killing and maiming many in West Texas. Plant had other problems but kept getting away with it. News died away. Where's the outrage ?


Update: The news has gone away nationally but not locally. Now the topic is whether to or not to allow annual federal inspections. It's difficult to know whether or not this explosion would have been avoided had regular inspections occurred. However, it certainly could not have hurt.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> These same symptoms can be applied to the children who where brought up being taught that there are no winners or losers. These kids can't handle the real world once they realize that there are indeed winners and the winners are successful, while the losers are not. The kids were not taught to learn from losses or failures, that it is a part of life. It's no wonder these kids are so screwed up.


Loser can become winners - I've seen it happen. How sad to categorize children as winners or losers - then they become what you label them.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Leslie_S said:


> Sorry Joeysomma,
> 
> I am sure that is truly what you believe, bless your heart.


While I consider the bible to be an history book of sorts, I tend to consider those who believe it to be the truth and the way as sheep. If you believe in God, then you should also believe in free will and that free will. Free will to question that which is written. After all, the bible was written by many men. Hey, maybe that's the problem - it should have been written by women!


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> He did not necessarily put 2 of every type of dinosaur on the ARK. Just like he did not put 2 of every type of dog on the ark. There were 7 of certain animals and 5 were used for food while they were on the ark. There are reptiles that the scientists have found to be similar to what history calls dinosaurs. Many species of animals have become extinct in 6000 years.


Which animals I wonder?


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> I want to know how often anyone has documented riding inside a whale.


Well, there was that one time in band camp......


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Et tu Tutu.



aw9358 said:


> Desmond Tutu said recently that he would not want to go to a homophobic heaven. I think I prefer his version of Christianity.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ignorance never stops growing.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

See you soon.



kneonknitter said:


> I have spent the better part of 3 days on this thread, said what I have had to say & realize now that you just can't fix stupid. I am out of here. I have lots of knitting to catch up on. Bye!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

This wouldn't make it to 'show & tell' in preschool.

ROFL



Leslie_S said:


> OH, I just don't know whether to laugh or cry. ROFL!!! A kindergarten dissertation. No, below that level...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Not at all. Thank you for sharing. ROFL



Leslie_S said:


> Ooey Gooey was a worm, a mighty worm was he. He stepped upon the railroad track; the train he did not see... Choo...
> choo...sputter...sputter...Ooey Gooey peanut butter!
> 
> I don't think I'm too far off the topic.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> No--but it's fun imagining poor Noah trying to jam a herd of dinosaurs into an ark measuring 300 X 50 X 30 cubits. Maybe that's why they went extinct--during all that time at sea the T-Rex ate them up.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for the update GW.



GWPlver said:


> Update: The news has gone away nationally but not locally. Now the topic is whether to or not to allow annual federal inspections. It's difficult to know whether or not this explosion would have been avoided had regular inspections occurred. However, it certainly could not have hurt.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And there you are!



GWPlver said:


> While I consider the bible to be an history book of sorts, I tend to consider those who believe it to be the truth and the way as sheep. If you believe in God, then you should also believe in free will and that free will. Free will to question that which is written. After all, the bible was written by many men. Hey, maybe that's the problem - it should have been written by women!


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

damemary said:


> Et tu Tutu.


Hahahahaha. There truly is nothing like a dame.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> While I consider the bible to be an history book of sorts, I tend to consider those who believe it to be the truth and the way as sheep. If you believe in God, then you should also believe in free will and that free will. Free will to question that which is written. After all, the bible was written by many men. Hey, maybe that's the problem - it should have been written by women!


As if.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Just think the biggest political solution to Obama's Syrian War can after a Day of Prayer by the Catholics on Saturday and the Russian President Putin coming to the rescue of the United States. A sad day when we need a bailout by the Russians


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

I would sooner believe the anal probers were around than believe that some guy was kept alive inside some whales digestive system for several days. 
I am familiar with that site that Joeywhatshisname used. It provides no answers at all, just speculation.



Huckleberry said:


> jelun2
> and then there is there are those Aliens paying visits to certain folks. Ever tried to guess their IQs?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Perhaps we need to petition the leadership of the religious outlets to include the gnostic evidence in their collections.

http://www.gnosis.org/library.html



aw9358 said:


> As if.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

LOL, love it!



GWPlver said:


> Well, there was that one time in band camp......


----------



## medusa (Nov 20, 2012)

GWPlver said:


> Well, there was that one time in band camp......


GW - that is THE best response yet - thanks for making me laugh!!! :-D :-D :-D


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> While I consider the bible to be an history book of sorts, I tend to consider those who believe it to be the truth and the way as sheep. If you believe in God, then you should also believe in free will and that free will. Free will to question that which is written. After all, the bible was written by many men. Hey, maybe that's the problem - it should have been written by women!


Elizabeth Cady Stanton worked (am not sure finished) on a women's version of the bible. Just looked it up, she did finish and published the Woman's Bible.


----------



## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> Elizabeth Cady Stanton worked (am not sure finished) on a women's version of the bible. Just looked it up, she did finish and published the Woman's Bible.


Did she translate it or interpret it, do you know? Just curious.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you.



aw9358 said:


> Hahahahaha. There truly is nothing like a dame.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Very good.



aw9358 said:


> As if.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Receive it in a vision?



blessedinMO said:


> Did she translate it or interpret it, do you know? Just curious.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

blessedinMO said:


> Did she translate it or interpret it, do you know? Just curious.


Do you mean translate from Hebrew?


----------



## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> Do you mean translate from Hebrew?


Or Greek?


----------



## grannybell (Mar 12, 2013)

I write "letters to the editor", some of which have been printed. I'm not a fan of using this forum to discuss political issues. I go to this site to relax and have fun, no heavy stuff for me. I am a political animal, by the way.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> As if.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

damemary said:


> Look it up. Links have been provided numerous times.
> 
> I know you're not interested and you don't believe anything you don't hear through blogs. This is the wrong place for you so low.


In other words you have nothing. Why am I not surprised?


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Just think the biggest political solution to Obama's Syrian War can after a Day of Prayer by the Catholics on Saturday and the Russian President Putin coming to the rescue of the United States. A sad day when we need a bailout by the Russians


I like it - collaboration can be a good thing. Would you rather us strike Syria? I think this is a prudent alternative. But nothing will make the conservatives happy.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

grannybell said:


> I write "letters to the editor", some of which have been printed. I'm not a fan of using this forum to discuss political issues. I go to this site to relax and have fun, no heavy stuff for me. I am a political animal, by the way.


I understand that but for some of us, this is the forum for us to discuss political issues. I applaud you for writing letters to the editor!


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> While I consider the bible to be an history book of sorts, I tend to consider those who believe it to be the truth and the way as sheep. If you believe in God, then you should also believe in free will and that free will. Free will to question that which is written. After all, the bible was written by many men. Hey, maybe that's the problem - it should have been written by women!


GWPIver
translations galore and yes by Men for their purposes.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you so low.



soloweygirl said:


> In other words you have nothing. Why am I not surprised?


----------



## alwilda (Apr 14, 2011)

2 questions. Did you get a thank you card from the Reagans?
And did Eleanor Roosevlet really have a FBI file? Why? O, that was 3 questions.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Take your pick.

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Eleanor+roosevelt+and+the+FBI&qs=n&form=QBLH&pq=eleanor+roosevelt+and+the+fbi&sc=1-29&sp=-1&sk=&ghc=1



alwilda said:


> 2 questions. Did you get a thank you card from the Reagans?
> And did Eleanor Roosevlet really have a FBI file? Why? O, that was 3 questions.


----------



## laceandbits (Jun 23, 2011)

Hidden in the depths, around page 8 or 9, is the wonderful irony that the linens sent by the OP to make her outrageous statement were returned to her, by a secretary, as not being suitable or some similar bland comment. 

So not only was it a bit pointless in the first place, it was treated with a polite contempt which just made the whole thing a complete farce.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> I like it - collaboration can be a good thing. Would you rather us strike Syria? I think this is a prudent alternative. But nothing will make the conservatives happy.


How did you conclude that believing that a Day of Prayer for Peace and then an alternative plan emerged did not make me happy? I was not for the lobbing of bombs into Syria, just for Obama to save face. I stated that I did not see enough proof of a threat to our National Security to justify such an action, and that I wanted Congress to vote on the War. I believe the lobbing of missile into Syria could kill more people than the WMD's a did a month ago. I am embarrassed that Obama had to be saved by Putin.


----------



## RUKnitting (Dec 17, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> How did you conclude that believing that a Day of Prayer for Peace and then an alternative plan emerged did not make me happy? I was not for the lobbing of bombs into Syria, just for Obama to save face. I stated that I did not see enough proof of a threat to our National Security to justify such an action, and that I wanted Congress to vote on the War. I believe the lobbing of missile into Syria could kill more people than the WMD's a did a month ago. I am embarrassed that Obama had to be saved by Putin.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

alwilda said:


> 2 questions. Did you get a thank you card from the Reagans?
> And did Eleanor Roosevlet really have a FBI file? Why? O, that was 3 questions.


Thank you was from the social secretary.

Yes Eleanor had a FBI file, she was considered a radical because of her social justice work.

Blanche Wiesen Cook wrote a great biography of Eleanor.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

laceandbits said:


> Hidden in the depths, around page 8 or 9, is the wonderful irony that the linens sent by the OP to make her outrageous statement were returned to her, by a secretary, as not being suitable or some similar bland comment.
> 
> So not only was it a bit pointless in the first place, it was treated with a polite contempt which just made the whole thing a complete farce.


Possibly you do not understand a symbolic political act.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Yes indeed, a complete farce... pretty much like the rest of the theatrics in Ronnie's tenure. 
Thank you for sharing your political activity with us. 
God bless.



laceandbits said:


> Hidden in the depths, around page 8 or 9, is the wonderful irony that the linens sent by the OP to make her outrageous statement were returned to her, by a secretary, as not being suitable or some similar bland comment.
> 
> So not only was it a bit pointless in the first place, it was treated with a polite contempt which just made the whole thing a complete farce.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

kneonknitter said:


> Let's see...are ALL heterosexuals really happy with their lives? Is what you are saying is that sex is the be all & end all of everyone's feelings about their lives? Most homosexuals are very happy with their lives, once they realize that they have to live for themselves, not for society. Do you know of the thousands of homosexuals who were so unhappy living heterosexual lives, married to the opposite sex, having children that they divorced their spouses & live their lives openly & very happily now? Do you also know that the children of these people are glad for their parent because the parent is now a happier person & they have close & wonderful relationships with this parent?
> You wonder if homosexuals are 'really happy' with their lives. They are, but, they would be much happier if society would quit making their lives an issue & just let them get on with their lives. How come no body cares what goes on in the bedrooms of straight people, but, think that gay people's lives should be an open book. BTW...straight people are more interested in kinky sex, pornography & child molestation than gay people are, but, for some reason this is acceptable because they are straight. Another fact...more straight people fantasize about homosexual acts than homesexuals fantasize about being straight. So, my question is this...why are straight people so obsessed with what homosexuals are doing?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

You look lovely this morning, M'dear.



Designer1234 said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> Possibly you do not understand a symbolic political act.


laceandbits wrote:
Hidden in the depths, around page 8 or 9, is the wonderful irony that the linens sent by the OP to make her outrageous statement were returned to her, by a secretary, as not being suitable or some similar bland comment.

So not only was it a bit pointless in the first place, it was treated with a polite contempt which just made the whole thing a complete farce.
*******************************
I would venture a guess that she doesn't understand much. 
Hidden? Really? 
I am so disappointed that she didn't share any activity with us, outrageous, adventurous or otherwise.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> laceandbits wrote:
> Hidden in the depths, around page 8 or 9, is the wonderful irony that the linens sent by the OP to make her outrageous statement were returned to her, by a secretary, as not being suitable or some similar bland comment.
> 
> So not only was it a bit pointless in the first place, it was treated with a polite contempt which just made the whole thing a complete farce.
> ...


Possibly nothing to share. Some folks just aren't outrageous. Then I think of myself as not outrageous enough.....


----------



## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> He did not necessarily put 2 of every type of dinosaur on the ARK. Just like he did not put 2 of every type of dog on the ark. There were 7 of certain animals and 5 were used for food while they were on the ark. There are reptiles that the scientists have found to be similar to what history calls dinosaurs. Many species of animals have become extinct in 6000 years.


Noah & his family were vegetarians until after the flood. The animals that were brought in in multiples of 7 were for sacrifices.


----------



## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I hadn't heard of that, but how many sacrifices would he need?


Sacrifices would be made for his and his family's sins every day. In the course of their time on the Ark, animals could have been born to those that went in by two(s). Scripture doesn't tell us how the animals knew to go into the Ark, but I heard a teaching on it once and was told it is thought that God would have instilled into each set of animals the instinct to go to the Ark, much like birds fly south for the winter and salmon swim upstream to spawn. Those would have been incredible times the Noah family was living through and amazing things would have been happening. The people of Noah's time also mocked him for what he believed.

I personally believe that the Ark is on Mount Ararat as told in the Bible and with global warming, it's possible that one day, when even Bible-believing Christians will doubt, the Ark will be revealed to renew our faith to the glory of God through Christ.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

RachelL said:


> Sacrifices would be made for his and his family's sins every day. In the course of their time on the Ark, animals could have been born to those that went in by two(s). Scripture doesn't tell us how the animals knew to go into the Ark, but I heard a teaching on it once and was told it is thought that God would have instilled into each set of animals the instinct to go to the Ark, much like birds fly south for the winter and salmon swim upstream to spawn. Those would have been incredible times the Noah family was living through and amazing things would have been happening. The people of Noah's time also mocked him for what he believed.
> 
> Perhaps you can explain the fit of these posts about Noah into the concept of outrageous political acts? Thank you.
> I personally believe that the Ark is on Mount Ararat as told in the Bible and with global warming, it's possible that one day, when even Bible-believing Christians will doubt, the Ark will be revealed to renew our faith to the glory of God through Christ.


----------



## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

I'm responding to a much earlier post on the subject. And I'm also answering someone's question. I didn't realize things had to pass your approval prior to posting.

Why are you so angry? Maybe you shouldn't eat so many lemons in one sitting?


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

RachelL said:


> I'm responding to a much earlier post on the subject. And I'm also answering someone's question. I didn't realize things had to pass your approval prior to posting.
> 
> Why are you so angry? Maybe you shouldn't eat so many lemons in one sitting?


I am not angry, just curious about the fit of Noah into the concept. 
lemons?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

"Do You Believe In Magic"

Do you believe in magic?
In a young girls heart
How the music can free her
whenever it starts

And it's magic
if the music is groovy
It makes you feel happy like an old time movie

I'll tell ya about the magic
It'll free your soul
but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll

If you believe in magic, don't bother to choose
If it's jug band music or rhythm and blues
Just go and listen
It'll start with a smile
It won't wipe off your face no matter how hard you try
Your feet start tapping
And you can't seem to find
How you got there
So just blow your mind

If you believe in magic
Come along with me
We'll dance until morning, just you and me
and maybe, if the music is right
I'll meet ya tomorrow
so late at night

We'll go a dancin' baby then you'll see
all the magic's in the music and the music's in me, yeah

Do you belive in magic? Yeah.
Believe in the magic in a young girl's soul
believe in the magic of rock n roll
Believe in the magic that can set you free
Ohhhh, talkin' bout magic

Do you believe like I believe?



RachelL said:


> Sacrifices would be made for his and his family's sins every day. In the course of their time on the Ark, animals could have been born to those that went in by two(s). Scripture doesn't tell us how the animals knew to go into the Ark, but I heard a teaching on it once and was told it is thought that God would have instilled into each set of animals the instinct to go to the Ark, much like birds fly south for the winter and salmon swim upstream to spawn. Those would have been incredible times the Noah family was living through and amazing things would have been happening. The people of Noah's time also mocked him for what he believed.
> 
> I personally believe that the Ark is on Mount Ararat as told in the Bible and with global warming, it's possible that one day, when even Bible-believing Christians will doubt, the Ark will be revealed to renew our faith to the glory of God through Christ.


----------



## calisuzi (Apr 1, 2013)

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## calisuzi (Apr 1, 2013)

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Love that song, jelun! Ah the good old days of John Sebastian and the Lovin Spoonful!


----------



## calisuzi (Apr 1, 2013)

jenlun, such memories, thank you for taking me back to better times. Yes I Believe in Magic and love the song too.

Suzanne


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Not for nothing, cali, but it was jelun who posted the song.
Now I can't get it out of my head lol!!!


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

RachelL said:


> I personally believe that the Ark is on Mount Ararat as told in the Bible and with global warming, it's possible that one day, when even Bible-believing Christians will doubt, the Ark will be revealed to renew our faith to the glory of God through Christ.


Hmm...problem there is how the larger animals (elephants, camels, giraffes etc) would have gotten off that mountain top. In fact I don't see how anyone or anything in the ark could have managed it--Ararat has an elevation of 16, 854 feet.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

Just did some looking and found that the claims for the Ark being found on Mt. Ararat also claim that the wood has been carbon dated to the period of the Flood. Unfortunately, those are also the folks who believe the earth is only 6,000 years old, and their definition of carbon dating has bee "adjusted" to reflect that nonsense.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

One might ask why you are so nasty. It was a question as to how you see your posts fitting into a thread about political action. 
I cannot help but note that you didn't answer, you went on the attack. 
Does that mean that there is no way you can see a connection?



RachelL said:


> I'm responding to a much earlier post on the subject. And I'm also answering someone's question. I didn't realize things had to pass your approval prior to posting.
> 
> Why are you so angry? Maybe you shouldn't eat so many lemons in one sitting?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Must be that hat that is trapping the song inside.



BrattyPatty said:


> Not for nothing, cali, but it was jelun who posted the song.
> Now I can't get it out of my head lol!!!


----------



## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> I am not angry, just curious about the fit of Noah into the concept.
> lemons?


Your question sounded angry to me. The fit of Noah goes back to page 60 of this topic. I was responding to the comment there.

It's interesting to me how easy it is for those who don't believe in the Bible to mock those on this site who do. And they do it with great zeal, going into details of fairy tales and whatnot. Are we not free to express our beliefs without being held in contempt? Does it give someone pleasure to demean someone else for whatever reason on a forum that most people go to for help? How does someone's believing in a book that is the foundation on which this country was founded hurtful to anyone else? No other belief system is as belittled as those who believe in the Bible. We are all so politically correct except when it comes to Bible-believing people. It is open season on them. I just don't get it.


----------



## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

jelun2 said:


> "Do You Believe In Magic"
> 
> Do you believe in magic?
> In a young girls heart
> ...


What possible difference should it make to you what I believe?


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

jelun2 said:


> Must be that hat that is trapping the song inside.


Ok folks, I am tired and giving up on this site. No lemons, no anger, just tired.


----------



## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

jelun2 said:


> One might ask why you are so nasty. It was a question as to how you see your posts fitting into a thread about political action.
> I cannot help but note that you didn't answer, you went on the attack.
> Does that mean that there is no way you can see a connection?


I did answer. I said I was responding to an earlier post on page 60. How was that being on the attack? Did you question the first person who posted something about faith about the link to the original post? I'm sorry if you understand a challenge to your question(s) as an attack. Seems you are quick to judge, my friend. Shall I answer your redundant last question when I answered it already -- twice now?


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> They are finding more proof that the Bible is true, all the time. Thank you for posting this.


Joey, I think you misunderstood my intention. The "adjustment" to carbon dating is based on a complete fabrication and is used to justify a wildly crazy belief. If you choose to fly in the face of facts, go right ahead. However, I think the imposition of Christian belief on others in this country and around the world has caused a great deal of damage. This country was not founded on the bible. Thomas Jefferson, in fact, was so outraged by the bible that he created his own, without reference to god and Jesus. He was, at best, a deist, meaning he thought maybe there was some kind of higher power, but he wasn't really sure of that. The constitution went to great lengths to separate church from state, in part because so many people at the time had been persecuted by Christians because theirs wasn't the "right" kind of way of worshiping.. The founding fathers believed it was important for the government NOT to impose a particular belief on its citizens.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Since I am the one who uses the term "fairy tales" I will field that one. 
I will be straightforward. Yes, I do think that anyone who has reached majority and hasn't figured out that the Bible is not a historically accurate account does need to look at the difference between fact and tradition. 
Contempt is your word. 
I won't use that terminology, I will just say that people who don't keep up with science are sadly in denial of the real world. Nobody who is interested in thinking believes that the Bible is fact. 
It would seem that you don't get a lot of things. This nation was not founded on the Bible. 
You can make that statement until this grand experiment implodes. It will not make it true.



RachelL said:


> Your question sounded angry to me. The fit of Noah goes back to page 60 of this topic. I was responding to the comment there.
> 
> It's interesting to me how easy it is for those who don't believe in the Bible to mock those on this site who do. And they do it with great zeal, going into details of fairy tales and whatnot. Are we not free to express our beliefs without being held in contempt? Does it give someone pleasure to demean someone else for whatever reason on a forum that most people go to for help? How does someone's believing in a book that is the foundation on which this country was founded hurtful to anyone else? No other belief system is as belittled as those who believe in the Bible. We are all so politically correct except when it comes to Bible-believing people. It is open season on them. I just don't get it.


----------



## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

jelun2 said:


> Since I am the one who uses the term "fairy tales" I will field that one.
> I will be straightforward. Yes, I do think that anyone who has reached majority and hasn't figured out that the Bible is not a historically accurate account does need to look at the difference between fact and tradition.
> Contempt is your word.
> I won't use that terminology, I will just say that people who don't keep up with science are sadly in denial of the real world. Nobody who is interested in thinking believes that the Bible is fact.


I think your faith is science is great!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

RachelL said:



> Your question sounded angry to me. The fit of Noah goes back to page 60 of this topic. I was responding to the comment there.
> 
> It's interesting to me how easy it is for those who don't believe in the Bible to mock those on this site who do. And they do it with great zeal, going into details of fairy tales and whatnot. Are we not free to express our beliefs without being held in contempt? Does it give someone pleasure to demean someone else for whatever reason on a forum that most people go to for help? How does someone's believing in a book that is the foundation on which this country was founded hurtful to anyone else? No other belief system is as belittled as those who believe in the Bible. We are all so politically correct except when it comes to Bible-believing people. It is open season on them. I just don't get it.


This was not started as a biblical thread. Why not start one?
This way the original threads can stay on track and not be interrupted by those who think they can decipher the bible best? That would make a good thread on it's own. Go for it!


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

One more try, please look up at the bold words above the posts. 
That is the name of the thread. 
The question is redundant because you have not yet answered it. Nobody cares why you decided to post about religion. The question is ... What does your post have to do with political action? 
Your inability to answer the question means that it has no connection, is that correct? 
If you cannot find a base in reality you won't have to be concerned about any more questions.



RachelL said:


> I did answer. I said I was responding to an earlier post on page 60. How was that being on the attack? Did you question the first person who posted something about faith about the link to the original post? I'm sorry if you understand a challenge to your question(s) as an attack. Seems you are quick to judge, my friend. Shall I answer your redundant last question when I answered it already -- twice now?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> This was not started as a biblical thread. Why not start one?
> This way the original threads can stay on track and not be interrupted by those who think they can decipher the bible best? That would make a good thread on it's own. Go for it!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

jelun2 said:


> One more try, please look up at the bold words above the posts.
> That is the name of the thread.
> The question is redundant because you have not yet answered it. Nobody cares why you decided to post about religion. The question is ... What does your post have to do with political action?
> Your inability to answer the question means that it has no connection, is that correct?
> If you cannot find a base in reality you won't have to be concerned about any more questions.


I told you I was responding to a post about Noah. Why is that difficult for you to understand? I'm trying to help you. How many more ways would you like me to answer your question? Am I the first person to respond to a post that has nothing to do with the original subject? What are you not getting?


----------



## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> You said "The "adjustment" to carbon dating is based on a complete fabrication and is used to justify a wildly crazy belief. "
> 
> Actually carbon dating is not an exact science. So if you cannot believe it in this example, you are putting a lot of faith in a "complete fabrication" for any other time it is used.
> 
> It starts with a radioactive isotope of Carbon 14, and then uses its half life to calculate the age of items. But what if it doesn't always decay in the same manner, what if temperature and climate effect the decay rate. What if it didn't have the amount of Carbon 14 they thought it had. It is a guess at best.


And what if God created the world and everything in it aged?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

I just wanted you to admit that you were here to agitate. I think you have finally done that. 
I just wanted to give you every opportunity to find a way to tie into the thread. 
Thanks, but, no thanks. I don't need your help.



RachelL said:


> I told you I was responding to a post about Noah. Why is that difficult for you to understand? I'm trying to help you. How many more ways would you like me to answer your question? Am I the first person to respond to a post that has nothing to do with the original subject? What are you not getting?


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> You said "The "adjustment" to carbon dating is based on a complete fabrication and is used to justify a wildly crazy belief. "
> 
> Actually carbon dating is not an exact science. So if you cannot believe it in this example, you are putting a lot of faith in a "complete fabrication" for any other time it is used.
> 
> It starts with a radioactive isotope of Carbon 14, and then uses its half life to calculate the age of items. But what if it doesn't always decay in the same manner, what if temperature and climate effect the decay rate. What if it didn't have the amount of Carbon 14 they thought it had. It is a guess at best.


How exact do you want? when you are talking about millions of years, it would be silly to expect that a scientific system could pinpoint an exact date. All your "what ifs" are just that...unproven speculation that has nothing the do with the way science operates. Scientific protocol says that you test a theory, publish the theory, and give others an opportunity to retest your theory. If the results can't be replicated then your theory was wrong. I think subjecting the bible to scientific method could be interesting, but I think it would also fail the scientific test. Believe what you will, but please don't force that belief on others, including in our school systems.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Yet again we've got to that tired old argument between science and religion. It's going nowhere. I don't think I'm going to see your light anytime soon (ever), and if you have faith nothing anyone can say will change that. Let's just not.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Not really.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

It's really too bad that we cannot get so organized that we could let a few people know when we have had enough and get a notice when things have improved for a bit so we could come back and not be faced with SOS. 
Most of us here have some kind of faith, I think; or have had at some point. We can understand believing... we just cannot understand denying the rational. <shrug>



aw9358 said:


> Yet again we've got to that tired old argument between science and religion. It's going nowhere. I don't think I'm going to see your light anytime soon (ever), and if you have faith nothing anyone can say will change that. Let's just not.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> It takes a greater amount of faith to believe in millions of years than in 6000. There is no proof in millions of years. It is an unproven theory taught as a fact.


Just because it is difficult to imagine millions and billions of years doesn't mean it is a theory. We know how the earth and nature behave. We know that the earth could not possibly have only been in existence for 6,000 years. We know that dinosaurs and people did not inhabit the earth at the same time because the earliest archeological findings of people are much more recent than the age of the dinosaurs. This is not a question of faith, it is a question of understanding the evidence.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> It takes a greater amount of faith to believe in millions of years than in 6000. There is no proof in millions of years. It is an unproven theory taught as a fact.


Another question...what would you consider proof?


----------



## Pixiedust (Aug 30, 2013)

I have read this entire thread . I have to agree with the lady who started this post. Abandoning it is not a bad thing to do.
I do not post often , but do read a lot. I am sorry this thread switched tracks in the middle of the ride.
Nothing is worse than "holier than thou" fanatics that continue to spoil the fun for everyone else.
JMHO


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> How exact do you want? when you are talking about millions of years, it would be silly to expect that a scientific system could pinpoint an exact date. All your "what ifs" are just that...unproven speculation that has nothing the do with the way science operates. Scientific protocol says that you test a theory, publish the theory, and give others an opportunity to retest your theory. If the results can't be replicated then your theory was wrong. I think subjecting the bible to scientific method could be interesting, but I think it would also fail the scientific test. Believe what you will, but please don't force that belief on others, including in our school systems.


I agree with you, Pardo. As a Catholic I was taught not to view the Bible necessarily as a historical or scientific work. Rather, it's a vehicle for teaching and uses the language and imagery best suited for the period in which it was written.

Certainly there are those who view it differently--but then why not just accept the tale of Jonah, and of Noah as his ark, as miraculous and leave it at that? There's no scientific evidence to back up these tales, and it just looks silly when folks try to drum some up.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Here's hoping we will get to see more of you in the future.



Pixiedust said:


> I have read this entire thread . I have to agree with the lady who started this post. Abandoning it is not a bad thing to do.
> I do not post often , but do read a lot. I am sorry this thread switched tracks in the middle of the ride.
> Nothing is worse than "holier than thou" fanatics that continue to spoil the fun for everyone else.
> JMHO


----------



## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

jelun2 said:


> I just wanted you to admit that you were here to agitate. I think you have finally done that.
> I just wanted to give you every opportunity to find a way to tie into the thread.
> Thanks, but, no thanks. I don't need your help.


I responded to someone's post that had nothing to do with you. Then you got into the fray. You let 60 pages worth of comments on topics other than the original one pass, but on the 65th, you picked up on my response to a post. How then am I the agitator when I expressed an opinion that was harmless and didn't affect you at all?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Evidence Suggests Noah's Ark Flood Existed, Says Robert Ballard, Archaeologist Who Found Titanic

The Huffington Post | By Meredith Bennett-Smith	Posted: 12/10/2012 6:38 pm EST | Updated: 12/11/2012 12:11 pm EST
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Noahs Flood Real Robert Ballard
In this photo, underwater archaeologist Robert Ballard speaks during the National Geographic Channel and Nat Geo WILD portion of the 2012 Television Critics Association Press Tour on Jan. in Pasadena, Calif.

Robert Ballard, one of the world's most famous underwater explorers, has set his sights on proving the existence of one of the Bible's most well known stories.

In an interview with ABC's Christiane Amanpour the archaeologist who discovered the Titanic discussed his findings from his search in Turkey for evidence of a civilization swept away by a monstrous ancient flood.

"We went in there to look for the flood," Ballard said. "Not just a slow moving, advancing rise of sea level, but a really big flood that then stayed... The land that went under stayed under."

Many have claimed to have discovered evidence of Noah's Ark, the huge ship that Noah filled with two of each creature to repopulate the planet following God's devastating flood. But in the 1990s, geologists William Ryan and Walter Pitman gathered compelling evidence that showed a flood--if not an ark--may have occurred in the Middle East region about 7,500 years ago, PBS reports.

The theory, the Guardian reports, is that a rising Mediterranean Sea pushed a channel through what is now the Bosphorus, submerging the original shoreline of the Black Sea in a deluge flowing at about 200 times the volume of Niagara Falls and extending out for 100,000 square miles.

Ballard has been exploring this theory for more than a decade, National Geographic reports, first discovering evidence of a submerged ancient shoreline in 1999. At that point, Ballard was still not convinced this was a biblical flood, according to the Guardian. Last year, his team found a vessel and one of its crew members in the Black Sea, according to ABC.

Ballard is using advanced robotic technology to travel back nearly 12,000 years to a time when much of the Earth was covered in ice, ABC reports. If and when this ice started to melt, massive floods may have surged through parts of the globe, wreaking havoc on anything and anyone in its way.

With an impressive track record (besides the Titanic, Ballard also found the wreck of the battleship, Bismarck, and a U.S. fleet lost off Guadalcanal in the Pacific) and plenty of confidence, Ballard remains unfazed by critics. He plans on returning to Turkey next summer.

The story of Noah and his ark is a building block of Genesis, in the Old Testament. It is similar in some respects to the Babylonian epic of Gilgamesh, according to National Geographic, and the ancient Greeks, Romans and Native Americans all have their own variations on legendary flood stories.

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CORRECTION: A previous headline on this story suggested that Ballard believed he found evidence of Noah's Ark. He only found evidence of the flood.

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susanmos2000 said:


> I agree with you, Pardo. As a Catholic I was taught not to view the Bible necessarily as a historical or scientific work. Rather, it's a vehicle for teaching and uses the language and imagery best suited for the period in which it was written.
> 
> Certainly there are those who view it differently--but then why not just accept the tale of Jonah, and of Noah as his ark, as miraculous and leave it at that? There's no scientific evidence to back up these tales, and it just looks silly when folks try to drum some up.


Evidence Suggests Noah's Ark Flood Existed, Says Robert Ballard, Archaeologist Who Found Titanic

The Huffington Post | By Meredith Bennett-Smith	Posted: 12/10/2012 6:38 pm EST | Updated: 12/11/2012 12:11 pm EST
Share on Google+
Get Religion Newsletters:
Subscribe
React:
Amazing
Inspiring
Funny
Scary
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Important
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Follow:
Bible Clue, Genesis Noah's Ark, Genesis Clue, Noah's Ark, Robert Ballard Noah's Flood, Robert Ballard Noah's Ark, Evidenc Of Bilbical Flood, Noah's Ark Evidence, Noah's Flood Proof, Religion News
Noahs Flood Real Robert Ballard
In this photo, underwater archaeologist Robert Ballard speaks during the National Geographic Channel and Nat Geo WILD portion of the 2012 Television Critics Association Press Tour on Jan. in Pasadena, Calif.

Robert Ballard, one of the world's most famous underwater explorers, has set his sights on proving the existence of one of the Bible's most well known stories.

In an interview with ABC's Christiane Amanpour the archaeologist who discovered the Titanic discussed his findings from his search in Turkey for evidence of a civilization swept away by a monstrous ancient flood.

"We went in there to look for the flood," Ballard said. "Not just a slow moving, advancing rise of sea level, but a really big flood that then stayed... The land that went under stayed under."

Many have claimed to have discovered evidence of Noah's Ark, the huge ship that Noah filled with two of each creature to repopulate the planet following God's devastating flood. But in the 1990s, geologists William Ryan and Walter Pitman gathered compelling evidence that showed a flood--if not an ark--may have occurred in the Middle East region about 7,500 years ago, PBS reports.

The theory, the Guardian reports, is that a rising Mediterranean Sea pushed a channel through what is now the Bosphorus, submerging the original shoreline of the Black Sea in a deluge flowing at about 200 times the volume of Niagara Falls and extending out for 100,000 square miles.

Ballard has been exploring this theory for more than a decade, National Geographic reports, first discovering evidence of a submerged ancient shoreline in 1999. At that point, Ballard was still not convinced this was a biblical flood, according to the Guardian. Last year, his team found a vessel and one of its crew members in the Black Sea, according to ABC.

Ballard is using advanced robotic technology to travel back nearly 12,000 years to a time when much of the Earth was covered in ice, ABC reports. If and when this ice started to melt, massive floods may have surged through parts of the globe, wreaking havoc on anything and anyone in its way.

With an impressive track record (besides the Titanic, Ballard also found the wreck of the battleship, Bismarck, and a U.S. fleet lost off Guadalcanal in the Pacific) and plenty of confidence, Ballard remains unfazed by critics. He plans on returning to Turkey next summer.

The story of Noah and his ark is a building block of Genesis, in the Old Testament. It is similar in some respects to the Babylonian epic of Gilgamesh, according to National Geographic, and the ancient Greeks, Romans and Native Americans all have their own variations on legendary flood stories.

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CORRECTION: A previous headline on this story suggested that Ballard believed he found evidence of Noah's Ark. He only found evidence of the flood.

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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Searches for Noah's Ark
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Mount Ararat (39°42′N, 44°17′E), satellite image  a stratovolcano, 5,137 metres (16,854 ft) above sea level, prominence 3,611 metres (11,847 ft), believed to have erupted within the last 10,000 years. The main peak is at the centre of the image.

Searches for Noah's Ark have been made from at least the time of Eusebius (c.275339 AD) to the present day. Despite many expeditions, no scientific evidence of the ark has been found.[1][2]
Contents

1 Antiquity
2 Middle Ages and early modern periods
3 19th century
4 Modern searches (1949 to present)
5 Unsubstantiated claims
6 See also
7 Notes and references
8 Further reading
9 External links

Antiquity
Further information: Noah's Ark and Mountains of Ararat
A modern mausoleum marks the site in Nakhchivan City traditionally believed to be the grave of Noah.

According to Genesis 8:4, the Ark came to rest "on the mountains of Ararat." Early commentators such as Josephus,[citation needed] and authorities quoted by him, Berossus,[citation needed] Hieronymus the Egyptian,[citation needed] Mnaseas, and Nicolaus of Damascus,[citation needed] record the tradition that these "mountains of Ararat" are to be found in the region then known as Armenia, roughly corresponding to Eastern Anatolia.

Syrian and Armenian tradition of the early centuries AD had a tradition of the ark landing at Mount Judi, where according to Josephus the remains of the ark were still shown in the 1st century AD. The location of the "Place of Descent" (αποβατηριον, i.e., Nakhchivan) described by Josephus was some 100 km to the southeast of the peak now known as Mount Ararat, in what is today Northern Iraq.
Middle Ages and early modern periods
Main article: Mountains of Ararat

Marco Polo (12541324) wrote in his book, The Travels of Marco Polo:

In the heart of the Armenian mountain range, the mountains peak is shaped like a cube (or cup), on which Noah's ark is said to have rested, whence it is called the Mountain of Noah's Ark. It [the mountain] is so broad and long that it takes more than two days to go around it. On the summit the snow lies so deep all the year round that no one can ever climb it; this snow never entirely melts, but new snow is for ever falling on the old, so that the level rises.

Sir Walter Raleigh, writing c. 1616, made a laborious argument taking up several whole chapters of his History of the World, that the term "Mountains of Ararat" originally encompassed all the adjoining and taller ranges of Asia, and that Noah's Ark could only have landed in the Orient  especially since Armenia is not technically east of the plain of Shinar (or Mesopotamia), but more northwest.
19th century
The structure claimed to be Noah's Ark in Durupınar site, Agri, Turkey

In 1829, Dr. Friedrich Parrot, who had made an ascent of Greater Ararat, wrote in his Journey to Ararat that "all the Armenians are firmly persuaded that Noah's Ark remains to this very day on the top of Ararat, and that, in order to preserve it, no human being is allowed to approach it."[3]

In 1876, James Bryce, historian, statesman, diplomat, explorer, and Professor of Civil Law at Oxford, climbed above the tree line and found a slab of hand-hewn timber, four feet long and five inches thick, which he identified as being from the Ark.[4] In 1883, the British Prophetic Messenger and others reported that Turkish commissioners investigating avalanches had seen the Ark.[5]

Modern searches (1949 to present)

Searches since the mid-20th century have been largely supported by evangelical and millenarian churches and sustained by ongoing popular interest, faith-based magazines and lecture tours, videos, occasional television specials and more recently the Internet.

In 1949 Aaron J. Smith, dean of the People's Bible College in Greensboro, NC, led an unsuccessful expedition to locate the ark.[6]

Former astronaut James Irwin led two expeditions to Ararat in the 1980s, was kidnapped once, but found no tangible evidence of the Ark. "I've done all I possibly can," he said, "but the Ark continues to elude us."[7]

In the 1980s and 1990s the Durupınar site was heavily promoted by Ron Wyatt. It receives a steady stream of visitors and according to the local authorities a nearby mountain is called "Mount Cudi" (or Judi), making it one of about five Mount Judis in the land of Kurdistan. Geologists have identified the Durupınar site as a natural formation,[8] but Wyatt's Ark Discovery Institute continues to champion its claims.[9]

In 2004, Honolulu-based businessman Daniel McGivern announced he would finance a $900,000 expedition to the peak of Greater Ararat in July of that year to investigate the "Ararat anomaly"  he had previously paid for commercial satellite images of the site.[1] After much initial fanfare, he was refused permission by the Turkish authorities, as the summit is inside a restricted military zone. The expedition was subsequently labelled a "stunt" by National Geographic News, which pointed out that the expedition leader, a Turkish academic named Ahmet Ali Arslan, had previously been accused of faking photographs of the Ark.[10]

In June 2006, Bob Cornuke of the Bible Archeology Search and Exploration Institute (or BASE Institute) took a team of 14 American "business, law, and ministry leaders" to Iran to visit a site in the Alborz Mountains, purported to be a possible resting place of the Ark. The team claimed to have visited an "object" 13,000 feet above sea level, which had the appearance of blackened petrified wooden beams, and was "about the size of a small aircraft carrier" [400 ft long (120 m)], and supposedly consistent with the dimensions provided in Genesis of 300 cubits by 50 cubits.[11] BASE Institute identifies this site as the site found by Ed Davis. The team also claimed to have found fossilised sea creatures inside the petrified wood, and in the immediate vicinity of the site.[12] One member of the team claimed that 'a Houston lab used by the Smithsonian' tested some beams and confirmed they were petrified wood containing fossilised sea animals,[13] but the name of the laboratory was not given. No one outside the expedition has offered independent confirmation, and apart from a few purported beams, no photographic images of this supposed Ark in its entirety have been made available (though short video segments have been made available).[14] The team's consensus on the "object" is not absolute; Reg Lyle, another expedition member, described the find as appearing to be "a basalt dike".[12] It is the official position of the BASE Institute that Iran was the logical resting place of the Ark.[15] Their website does not definitely claim the object to be the Ark, but concludes that it is "a candidate".[16]

In 2007, a joint Turkish-Hong Kong expedition including members of Noah's Ark Ministries International claimed to have found an unusual cave with fossilized wooden walls on Mount Ararat, well above the vegetation line.[17]

In 2010, Noah's Ark Ministries International (NAMI) released videos of their discovery of the wood structures.[18] Members of Noah's Ark Ministries International reported carbon dating suggests the wood is approximately 4,800 years old. It is unlikely that there was any human settlement at the site at altitude of 4,000 meters.[19] Randall Price, a partner with Noah's Ark Ministries International from early 2008 to the summer of 2008, stated that the discovery was probably the result of a hoax, perpetrated by ten Kurdish workers hired by the Turkish guide used by the Chinese, who planted large wood beams taken from an old structure near the Black Sea at the cave site.[20][21] In a response to Price, Noahs Ark Ministries International stated that they had terminated co-operation with Price in early October 2008, and that he had never been in the location of the wooden structure they identified, and regretted his absence in their find. On their website they say they asked for the opinion of Mr. Muhsin Bulut, the Director of Cultural Ministries, Agri Province. The web site says that his response was that secretly transporting such an amount of timber to the strictly monitored area and planting a large wood structure at an altitude of 4,000 meters would have been impossible.[22] At the end of April 2010, it was reported that Turkey's culture minister ordered a probe into how NAMI brought its pieces of wood samples from Turkey to China.[23]

Unsubstantiated claims

According to one story, Nicholas II of Russia sent an expedition to Mount Ararat in 19161918 to investigate the Ark. The fact that Nicholas abdicated during the February Revolution at the beginning of March 1917 (Gregorian calendar) makes the story unlikely. A few sources put the date of the expedition at 1916, ("the Russian imperial air force ... is supposed to have sent 150 men up Mount Ararat in 1916 to explore a large object said to be as long as a city block", reads one). However, this expedition was launched just as the Communist Revolution broke out in Russia. Allegedly, the reports were turned in to Leon Trotsky, who destroyed them.[24]

On April 1, 1933, the Kölnische Illustrierte Zeitung of Cologne published a story about an expedition sponsored by a Mrs. Putrid Lousey and including a "Prof. Mud" from "the Royal Yalevard University" in Massachusetts, the other "Prof. Stoneass." The story was accompanied by pictures, including what looked like a giant boat on a mountainside and also flintlock weapons, presumably for the explorers' protection in the wilderness. On April 8, the paper admitted the article had been an April Fools Day hoax. Nevertheless, a refugee publication called Rubez adapted and published the story. In turn, a White Russian refugee publication called Mech Gedeona ("Sword of Gideon") ran a Russian-language version. The names became garbled in transliteration, but the same pictures were reprinted each time. In 1972, the Mech Gedeona article came into the hands of Charles Willis of Fresno, California, who provided it to two Ark-search enthusiasts, Eryl Cummings and his wife. John Bradley, another Ark searcher, quickly provided them with the original German text, but even after this, the Cummingses pursued for nearly four more months making sure that the joke names were mistranscriptions into German rather than a hoax.[25]

In 1955, French explorer Fernand Navarra reportedly found a 5-foot wooden beam on Mount Ararat some 40 feet under the Parrot Glacier on the northwest slope and well above the treeline. The Forestry Institute of Research and Experiments of the Ministry of Agriculture in Spain certified the wood to be about 5,000 years old  a claim that is disputed by radio carbon dating, as two labs have dated the 1969 samples, one at 650 C.E. ± 50 years, the other at 630 C.E. ± 95 years.[26] Navarra's guide later claimed the French explorer bought the beam from a nearby village and carried it up the mountain.[24]

In 1970 an Armenian, Georgie Hagopian, claimed to have visited the Ark twice around 1908/1910 (1902 in another version, and 1906 according to a segment in the TV series Unsolved Mysteries) with his uncle. Hagopian claimed that he had climbed up onto the Ark and walked along its roof and that some of his young friends had also seen it. The online archive of the old USENET newsgroup talk.origins[27] notes that "[t]he apparent ease of getting to the ark conflicts with the accounts of other explorers,"[28]

Ed Davis,[29] a US army sergeant based at Hamadan in Iran during World War II, reported that he had climbed Mt. Ararat with his driver's family in 1943. After three days' climbing, the group camped 100 feet above the Ark and was able to look down into it but not to approach closely. According to Davis's description, it had broken into two pieces, which had been pushed some distance apart by glaciers. Its description roughly matched Hagopian's, judging by Elfred Lee's paintings. Lee also interviewed Ed Davis and created a painting based on Davis's descriptions. The structures in the paintings appear to match.[30]

In 1993, CBS aired a television special entitled "The Incredible Discovery of Noah's Ark," which contained a section devoted to the claims of George Jammal, who showed what he called "sacred wood from the ark." Jammal's story of a dramatic mountain expedition which took the life of "his Polish friend Vladimir" was actually a deliberate hoax, and Jammal  who was really an actor  later revealed that his "sacred wood" was wood taken from railroad tracks in Long Beach, California and hardened by cooking with various sauces in an oven.[31]

See also

Creationism
David Fasold
Deluge (mythology)
Flood geology
Gilgamesh flood myth
Pareidolia

Notes and references

^ a b Mayell, Hillary (27 April 2004). "Noah's Ark Found? Turkey Expedition Planned for Summer". National Geographic Society. Retrieved 29 April 2010.
^ Noah's Ark Quest Dead in Water  National Geographic
^ Dr Friedrich Parrott
^ James Bryce
^ British Prophetic Messenger and the Turkish Commissioners
^ Russia: Suspicion On The Mountain, Time Magazine, April 25, 1949
^ James Irwin, from Arlington National Cemetery website
^ bogus ark
^ Wyatt Archeological Research
^ McGivern expedition cancelled
^ Has Noah's Ark Been Found?
^ a b "Noah's Ark? For Real". 2006-06-16.
^ Texans Part Of Possible Noah's Ark Discovery
^ Dialup and broadband video footage from BASE
^ Ten Logical Reasons for The Ark of Noah Being in Iran
^ http://www.baseinstitute.org/noah6.html
^ http://www.noahsarksearch.net/eng/content05.php
^ NoahsArkSearch - YouTube
^ Kelly, Cathal (2010-04-27). "Noahs Ark found, researchers claim". Toronto Star (thestar.com). Retrieved 19 December 2010.
^ [1]
^ Tigay, Chanan (29 April 2010). "Ex-Colleague: Expedition Faked Noah's Ark Find". AOL News. AOL. Retrieved 29 April 2010.
^ http://www.noahsarksearch.net/eng/randall.php
^ Chinese explorers stand by claim of Noah's Ark find in Turkey, The Christian Science Monitor, 3 May 2010
^ a b Ancient High Technology  Evidence of Noah's Flood?
^ April's Fools
^ TalkOrigins "Navarra's Wood"
^ CH505.4: Hagopian and the Ark
^ Hagopian, however, claims that he visited during drought period and that only the mountain's peak was covered in snow
^ Noah's Ark Search  Mount Ararat
^ Mount Ararat Photo Album
^ Jammal, George. "Hoaxing The Hoaxers: or, The Incredible (phony) Discovery of Noah's Ark". Atheist Alliance International. Archived from the original on September 11, 2007. Retrieved October 9, 2012.

Further reading

Cummings, Violet M., Noah's Ark: Fable or Fact?, (1972) ISBN 0-8007-8183-X

External links

Unsolved Mysteries (NBC), April 29, 1992.
Photographs of "Durupinar": aerial and ground level
The Skeptics' Dictionary
Index to Creationist Claims
Bosch Hieronymus Noah's Ark on Mount Ararat Oil Painting  Master Works Art Gallery
Noah's Ark Discovered in Iran? from National Geographic News of July, 2006
[2]

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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Could Noahs Ark really hold all the animals that were supposed to be preserved from Flood?

See this page in: Hungarian, Japanese, Spanish

Noah's Ark as shown in The World That Perished. Copyright, Films for Christ. A growing number of scientists believe that geological evidence indicates our world has undergone a catastrophic flood. This is causing them to question whether or not the biblical account of Noahs ark could be true. Many people are rereading the Biblical description of the Ark to ascertain the feasibility of such a vessel to fulfill its designated purpose in light of present day knowledge of both zoology and our present day knowledge of shipbuilding.
How big was Noahs Ark?
Noah's Ark size comparison to house. Illustration copyrighted, Films for Christ.
Size comparison between average size one-story home and Noahs Ark. Illustration from The World that Perished.

"And God said unto Noah Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt though make in the ark, and thou shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of the length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. A window shalt thou make in the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side therof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it." (Gen. 6:14-16)

Cubit measurement. Photo copyrighted, Films for Christ.
A cubit is the distance between an adults elbow and tip of the finger, no less than 18-inches [45.72 centimeters]. (Scene from The World that Perished.)

Most Hebrew scholars believe the cubit to have been no less than 18 inches long [45.72 centimeters]. This means that the Ark would have been at least 450 feet long [137.16 meters], 75 feet wide [22.86 meters] and 45 feet high [13.716000000000001 meters]. Noahs Ark was said to have been the largest sea-going vessel ever built until the late nineteenth century when giant metal ships were first constructed. Its length to width ratio of six to one provided excellent stability on the high seas. In fact, modern shipbuilders say it would have been almost impossible to turn over. In every way, it was admirably suited for riding out the tremendous storms in the year of the flood.

These dimensions are especially interesting when compared to those given in the mythical, Babylonian account of the Ark. Here the ark is described as a perfect cube, extending 120 cubits in all directions and with nine decks. Such a vessel would spin slowly round and round in the water and from the standpoint of stability, would be a disaster.
Was the ark big enough to hold the number of animals required?

The total available floor space on the Ark would have been over 100,000 square feet, which would be more floor space than in 20 standard-sized basketball courts.
Railroad stock cars. Copyrighted, Films for Christ.
Assuming an 18-inch cubit [45.72 centimeters], Noahs Ark would have had a cubic volume equal to 569 modern railroad stock cars.

The total cubic volume would have been 1,518,000 cubic feet [462,686.4 cubic meters] --that would be equal to the capacity of 569 modern railroad stock cars.

Now comes the question, how many land dwelling air breathing animals would have had to be taken aboard the ark to survive the flood?

According to Ernest Mayr, Americas leading taxonomist (deceased), there are over 1 million species of animals in the world.
Undersea. Photo copyrighted, Films for Christ.
God only provided the Ark for the protection of humans and land-dwelling, air-breathing creatures. A huge number of animals would not need to be taken aboard the Ark because they are water dwellers. Representatives would be expected to survive the catastrophe. With Gods protection against extinction during the Deluge, survival would have been assured. (Scene from The World that Perished, a Christian motion picture about the Flood)

However, the vast majority of these are capable of surviving in water and would not need to be brought aboard the ark. Noah need make no provision for the 21,000 species of fish or the 1,700 tunicates (marine chordates like sea squirts) found throughout the seas of the world, or the 600 echinoderms including star fish and sea urchins, or the 107,000 mollusks such as mussels, clams and oysters, or the 10,000 coelenterates like corals and sea anemones, jelly fish and hydroids or the 5,000 species of sponges, or the 30,000 protozoans, the microscopic single-celled creatures.

In addition, some of the mammals are aquatic. For example, the whales, seals and porpoises. The amphibians need not all have been included, nor all the reptiles, such as sea turtles, and alligators. Moreover, a large number of the arthropods numbering 838,000 species, such as lobsters, shrimp, crabs and water fleas and barnacles are marine creatures. And the insect species among arthropoda are usually very small. Also, many of the 35,000 species of worms as well as many of the insects could have survived outside the Ark.
How many animals needed to be brought aboard?

Doctors Morris and Whitcomb in their classic book,The Genesis Flood state that no more than 35,000 individual animals needed to go on the ark. In his well documented book, Noahs Ark: A Feasibility Study, John Woodmorappe suggests that far fewer animals would have been transported upon the ark. By pointing out that the word specie is not equivalent to the created kinds of the Genesis account, Woodmorappe credibly demonstrates that as few as 2,000 animals may have been required on the ark. To pad this number for error, he continues his study by showing that the ark could easily accommodate 16,000 animals.

Noah's Ark. Copyrighted, Films for Christ. But, lets be generous and add on a reasonable number to include extinct animals. Then add on some more to satisfy even the most skeptical. Lets assume 50,000 animals, far more animals than required, were on board the ark, and these need not have been the largest or even adult specimens.

Remember there are really only a few very large animals, such as the dinosaur or the elephant, and these could be represented by young ones. Assuming the average animal to be about the size of a sheep and using a railroad car for comparison, we note that the average double-deck stock car can accommodate 240 sheep. Thus, three trains hauling 69 cars each would have ample space to carry the 50,000 animals, filling only 37% of the ark. This would leave an additional 361 cars or enough to make 5 trains of 72 cars each to carry all of the food and baggage plus Noahs family of eight people. The Ark had plenty of space.

The bigger problem would have been the construction of the Ark. But the Bible indicates that Noah did this under Divine guidance and there is no reason to believe he did not hire additional workmen.
How were the animals gathered?

Another enormous problem some have posed is the problem of gathering specimens of each kind of air-breathing land animal and bringing them aboard the Ark. However, the Genesis account indicates that God gathered the animals and brought them to Noah inside the Ark two by two. Some have suggested this may have involved the origin of animal migratory instincts or, at least, an intensification of it. We also know that most animals possess the ability to sense danger and to move to a place of safety.
How could Noahs family take care of all those animals?
Noah with the animals. Copyrighted, Films for Christ.
Noah with the animals, as depicted in the motion picture, The World that Perished.

Once aboard, many have suggested that Noahs problems really began, with only 8 people to feed and water, to provide fresh air and sanitation for the huge menagerie of animals for a total of 371 days. However, a number of scientists have suggested that the animals may have gone into a type of dormancy. It has been said that in nearly all groups of animals there is at least an indication of a latent ability to hibernate or aestivate. Perhaps these abilities were supernaturally intensified during this period. With their bodily functions reduced to a minimum, the burden of their care would have been greatly lightened.
Conclusion

It is evident, when all the facts are examined that there is no scientific evidence that the biblical account of Noahs ark is a myth or fable. The facts support the view that Noahs ark was large enough to carry the number of animals required to repopulate the earth after the flood and that Noah and his family were capable of caring for the animals during their time on the Ark.

The flood of Noahs day was a universal judgment of sin. God destroyed the world that existed at that time because of their wickedness. When we look at nature, with its testimonies to the flood, we are viewing a reminder that God does judge sin. It is also a reminder that God will save those who have faith in Him from judgment. God promised that He would never again destroy the world with water, but that a future judgment would take place. Jesus Christ came into the world to die for our sins and to restore mans relationship with God, so that we need not fear His judgment.

Noah pleaded with the people of his day to have faith in God. They would not listen and the door to the ark was closed. Now, Christ is calling unto the world to once again have faith in God. Will you answer His calling and be saved from future judgment? The decision is yours.
Related information
more information
Creation SuperLibrary.com
Visit the Catastrophe index in our Creation SuperLibrary for much more information about the biblical Flood.

The Great Dinosaur Mystery On-line
Learn about DINOSAURS and the Flood in our Great Dinosaur Mystery section

DINOSAURSDid Noah take them on the Ark, too? Answer

Are dinosaur fossils evidence for the great Flood? Answer

How did FISH (freshwater and saltwater) survive the Flood? Answer

How did land plants survive the Genesis Flood? Answer

The waterWhere did it come from? And where did it all go after the Flood? Answer

How many people survived the Flood catastrophe? Answer

ORIGIN OF RACESHow could all human races come from Noah, his three sons and their wives? answer

Does the Bible really claim that the Flood covered the ENTIRE Earth? Answer

Has anyone really seen Noahs Ark? Answer

So where are all the fossils of pre-Flood people? Answer

Kids wordsearch puzzleGo

Kids coloring page - Noahs Ark on the waterGo

Outstanding Christian video available on this subject: The World That Perished [Read about it]

This page (christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c013.html) has been selected as an APPROVED SITE that "provides excellent educational value" for students. WebPathExpress (Follett Software Company), an educational Internet service.

[ If this information has been helpful, please prayerfully consider a donation to help pay the expenses for making this faith-building service available to you and your family! Donations are tax-deductible. ]

Authors: Stanley E. Taylor and Paul S. Taylor, adapted from from their motion picture The World That Perished, produced and distributed by Films for Christ.

Copyright © 1997, 1999, 2002, Films for Christ, All Rights Reserved - except as noted on attached Usage and Copyright page that grants ChristianAnswers.Net users generous rights for putting this page to work in their homes, personal witnessing, churches and schools.
Click Here The World That Perished DVD
by Films for Christ
All about Noahs Ark and the FloodThis award-winning, highly visual documentary film answers the questions of skeptics, and reveals the source of most fossils. Discover scientific and cultural evidence in support of the Bibles cataclysmic flood that once covered our entire planet and continues to effect our lives today!
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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

Wow, I thought a hurricane came through.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Evidence Suggests Noah's Ark Flood Existed, Says Robert Ballard, Archaeologist Who Found Titanic


I'm admit to being a bit puzzled about why you would accept Ballard's conclusions, CB. From the postings of the fundamentalist Christians I know they believe man has only existed for 6000 years--the flood Ryan and Pitman speak of dates well before that. Even if it were true there couldn't possibly be any connection between it and Noah and his ark.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm admit to being a bit puzzled about why you would accept Ballard's conclusions, CB. From the postings of the fundamentalist Christians I know they believe man has only existed for 6000 years--the flood Ryan and Pitman speak of happened dates well before that. Even if it were true there couldn't possibly be any connection between it and Noah and his ark.[/quote I believe the Bible. Just showing you man's proof. I don't need man's proof. I believe in God's Word.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

blessedinMO said:


> Wow, I thought a hurricane came through.


It would have been more interesting!!


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> It would have been more interesting!!


Patty....


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> It would have been more interesting!!


You betcha.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

None of this is scientific proof of anything! Just because it is printed doesn't make it true. A big flood doesn't mean the entire earth was covered. Over the millions of years land rose and fell, continents moved and oceans came and went. If you want to look at the story of Noah and the Ark as allegory, go for it. If you want to call it fact, you are delusional. there is absolutely no proof in anything you have listed.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Patty....


You have to admit,there are pages and pages and pages, CB.
I still love you.


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

Just a bit overwhelming to read.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> You have to admit,there are pages and pages and pages, CB.
> I still love you.


 :shock:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:



> :shock:


 :-D  :thumbup:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

RachelL said:


> I did answer. I said I was responding to an earlier post on page 60. How was that being on the attack? Did you question the first person who posted something about faith about the link to the original post? I'm sorry if you understand a challenge to your question(s) as an attack. Seems you are quick to judge, my friend. Shall I answer your redundant last question when I answered it already -- twice now?


I'd like to see PeaceGoddess ask Jelun2 how the lyrics to a song she posted is related to the original topic of this thread. Just saying ...

Thank you for your excellent posts Rachel. I cannot fathom how the Liberals on these threads exist on nothing but insulting and berating others. Their hearts are hardened with evil and hate making them incapable of intelligent and polite discussion.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> None of this is scientific proof of anything! Just because it is printed doesn't make it true. A big flood doesn't mean the entire earth was covered. Over the millions of years land rose and fell, continents moved and oceans came and went. If you want to look at the story of Noah and the Ark as allegory, go for it.


Yes, and I'm OK with fundamentalists who insist it was a plain miracle. Miracles are based on faith and don't need pseudo- scientific "evidence" on which to rest their case. In my opinion the fundamentalists who take this approach are showing a distinct lack of faith themselves.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Yes, and I'm OK with fundamentalists who insist it was a plain miracle. Miracles are based on faith and don't need pseudo- scientific "evidence" on which to rest their case. In my opinion the fundamentalists who take this approach are showing a distinct lack of faith themselves.


Huh?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Huh?


I thought the same thing. Also, who are the Fundamentalists on this thread 'they' keep speaking of?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'd like to see PeaceGoddess ask Jelun2 how the lyrics to a song she posted is related to the original topic of this thread. Just saying ...
> 
> Thank you for your excellent posts Rachel. I cannot fathom how the Liberals on these threads exist on nothing but insulting and berating others. Their hearts are hardened with evil and hate.


Was I right? KPG proved me right once again. All they do is follow the libs around and slam us. No matter what thread it is.
I say it needs to get a life away from us.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'd like to see PeaceGoddess ask Jelun2 how the lyrics to a song she posted is related to the original topic of this thread. Just saying ...
> 
> Thank you for your excellent posts Rachel. I cannot fathom how the Liberals on these threads exist on nothing but insulting and berating others. Their hearts are hardened with evil and hate.


Poor, Cheryl. Hate consumes every ounce of your being.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Huh?


To put it simply, fundamentalist Christians (those who believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible) should call stories like Noah's "miracles" and not try to explain or justify them with pseudo-scientific "evidence".


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## Pixiedust (Aug 30, 2013)

That is my thought exactly, susanmos2000.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> There is more scientific evidence for the Bible than there is for evolution. Your minds are so closed, you would not see it, if it was a rattlesnake coiled and ready to strike.


I ask again, what would you consider proof? There is no scientific proof for the bible.


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## Pixiedust (Aug 30, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'd like to see PeaceGoddess ask Jelun2 how the lyrics to a song she posted is related to the original topic of this thread. Just saying ...
> 
> Thank you for your excellent posts Rachel. I cannot fathom how the Liberals on these threads exist on nothing but insulting and berating others. Their hearts are hardened with evil and hate making them incapable of intelligent and polite discussion.


Those are not very Christian words. You should change your picture.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Pixiedust said:


> Those are not very Christian words. You should change your picture.


My words are the Truth - as a Christian should speak. Perhaps the love of God would soften your heart. Give God a try!

To see my words are true - check the prior posts of each of the Liberals to read their words.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> There is more scientific evidence for the Bible than there is for evolution. Your minds are so closed, you would not see it, if it was a rattlesnake coiled and ready to strike.


Are there Fund Christians running around trying to scientifically prove what they believe? I've not heard of this ...


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> There is more scientific evidence for the Bible than there is for evolution. Your minds are so closed, you would not see it, if it was a rattlesnake coiled and ready to strike.


"In 1993, CBS aired a television special entitled "The Incredible Discovery of Noah's Ark," which contained a section devoted to the claims of George Jammal, who showed what he called "sacred wood from the ark." Jammal's story of a dramatic mountain expedition which took the life of "his Polish friend Vladimir" was actually a deliberate hoax, and Jammal  who was really an actor  later revealed that his "sacred wood" was wood taken from railroad tracks in Long Beach, California and hardened by cooking with various sauces in an oven." [from CB's post]

If the scientific evidence was there we wouldn't see things like this.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> I ask again, what would you consider proof? There is no scientific proof for the bible.


Science Confirms the Bible
Jump to: navigation, search

Science Confirms the Bible is a short poster full of supposed "proofs" that the Bible is scientifically accurate. To show this, it quotes the Bible and then compares what it says to science "now" and "then". The effect is to demonstrate that the Bible was right long before science was. It is a part of Evidence Bible, a website and book related to Ray Comfort's Way of the Master website. Science Confirms the Bible also has a part in Scientific Facts in the Bible which mostly rehashes the same arguments but in a more mundane manner.

The statements are reproduced below.
Science Confirms the Bible (bear in mind that the Bible is 2000-3000 years old!)
The Bible Science now Science then
The Earth is a sphere (Isaiah 40:23) The Earth is a sphere The Earth is a flat disk
Incalculable number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22) Incalculable number of stars Only 1100 stars
Free float of Earth in space (Job 26:7) Free float of Earth in space Earth sat on a large animal
Creation made of invisible elements (Hebrews 11:3) Creation made of invisible elements (atoms) Science is mostly ignorant on the subject
Each star is different (1 Corinthians 15:41) Each star is different All stars were the same
Light moves (Job 38:19,20) Light moves Light was fixed in place
Air has weight (Job 28:25) Air has weight Air was weightless
Winds blow in cyclones (Ecclesiastes 1:6) Winds blow in cyclones Winds blew straight
Blood is the source of life and health (Leviticus 17:11) Blood is the source of life and health Sick people must be bled
Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains (2 Samuel 22:16; Jonah 2:6) Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains The ocean floor was flat
Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16) Ocean contains springs Ocean fed only by rivers and rain
When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water (Leviticus 15:13) When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water Hands washed in still water
A text version of the original can be found here.

Contents
[hide]

1 Earth is a sphere
2 Incalculable number of stars
3 Free float of Earth in space
4 Creation made of invisible elements
5 Each star is different
6 Light moves
7 Air has weight
8 Winds blow in cyclones
9 Blood is the source of life and health
10 Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains
11 Ocean contains springs
12 When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water
13 Conclusion
14 See also
15 External links
16 Footnotes

[edit] Earth is a sphere

The Bible
Isaiah 40:22
Hebrew English
הַיֹּשֵׁב֙ עַל־ח֣וּג הָאָ֔רֶץ וְיֹשְׁבֶ֖יהָ כַּחֲגָבִ֑ים הַנֹּוטֶ֤ה כַדֹּק֙ שָׁמַ֔יִם וַיִּמְתָּחֵ֥ם כָּאֹ֖הֶל לָשָֽׁבֶת׃ He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Although nitpicking with geometry, a circle is a 1-sphere, which means a circle has the same topological properties in 2-D as the sphere (as the common meaning would refer to) in 3-D. To be really pedantic, sphere and circle only refers to the boundary, not the spaces within (those are called balls and disks respectively). If the passage could potentially be interpreted in such ways, it may be intended to be interpreted as a flat circle, since interpreting "circle" as "sphere" would be an interpolation unsupported by the use of the word in other places in the Hebrew corpus. The rest of the passage is a little metaphorical as people aren't grasshoppers and the earth isn't a tent. With this in mind, it is likely that the meaning of "circle of the earth" is more to mean "encompassing the earth" or "the whole earth" rather than a comment on its shape. The Hebrew reads עַל־חוּג (ʿal-ḥûg̱; Strong's H5921-H2329). The word חוּג is also translated as "vault", i.e. an arch or a dome, in the specific context of a fixed idiom describing the sky (the "vault of the sky"), and the sky was not perceived to literally be a circle, but this doesn't imply that the word refers to a sphere and there is no good reason to believe that it is being used in this particular way here.
A view of the "flat earth", which is mostly a cultural invention.

Science now

To nitpick further, the Earth is not even a sphere. It's an oblate spheroid, due to the bulging in the equatorial region caused by its rotation. The difference in mean diameter from pole-to-pole and from opposite sides of the equator is a small, but not negligible, 21 km (~13 miles). Even so, it's not entirely regularly-shaped because slight anomalies in the mass and density of the Earth (over water for instance), change its shape by minute but measurable proportions. This has recently been measured with incredible precision by the European Space Agency's satellite GOCE.[1] "Science now" is ever progressing and refining the answer to the question of what shape the Earth is, and we now have this information in unprecedented detail.

Science then

Extremely ancient cultures probably did believe in a flat earth. This had nothing to do with any form of science but merely casual and short range observation. The belief was not very long lasting, however, once true interest in astronomy began. Observations that point to a rounded or spherical Earth pre-date most of the Bible. Very, very early observations clearly show that the hull of a boat or ship disappears over the horizon before the sails (indicating curvature) while experiments performed by the ancient Greeks calculated the curvature of the Earth and estimated its diameter to a reasonable accuracy. The idea that people widely held the belief that the Earth was flat is mostly a myth, generated in the 19th century. In any case, only cultural belief rather than any scientific observation or experiment supported the view that the Earth was flat.
[edit] Incalculable number of stars

The Bible
Jeremiah 33:22
Hebrew English
אֲשֶׁ֤ר לֹֽא־יִסָּפֵר֙ צְבָ֣א הַשָּׁמַ֔יִם וְלֹ֥א יִמַּ֖ד חֹ֣ול הַיָּ֑ם כֵּ֣ן אַרְבֶּ֗ה אֶת־זֶ֙רַע֙ דָּוִ֣ד עַבְדִּ֔י וְאֶת־הַלְוִיִּ֖ם מְשָׁרְתֵ֥י אֹתִֽי׃ I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars of the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore.

This verse is a clearly poetic one with some fairly funky grammatical features along with the very common structure of parallelism, where the same point is made using two different turns of phrase. The key phrase in this verse as far as this point is concerned is "לֹֽא־יִסָּפֵר֙", which very literally means something like "will not count itself" or "will not get counted". In grammatical jargon, יִסָּפֵר is the niph'al third-person masculine imperfect form of ס־פ־ר, and one of the functions of the niph'al is to denote a kind of passive. What is important here is that, understood using the same literal interpretative apparatus that the Biblical foreknowledge claims rely upon, the verse is not saying that the stars are countless, which is straightforwardly a quality, it is saying something subtly different: they will not get counted or aren't going to get counted, which is a plainer predictive statement. This renders verse a lot more trivial, since it's ultimately just saying that the stars are hard to count, which is relatively obvious. (Understanding it as a "modal imperfect" can plausibly render this as "could not get counted" or similar instead, but this would require non-literal analysis and is still different from making a scientific claim of incalculability.)

The Bible is being poetic rather than scientific. The Bible also states here that sand is as equally innumerable as the stars. However, that idea is clearly absurd as there is only a finite amount of sand on the planet. While difficulties may be found in defining "sand", a reasonable estimate is 7.5 x 1018 grains. Even taking into account the rock cycle of sand and stone, it is very much a finite resource and far from countless. Abstract mathematics does feature "uncountable" numbers, but that's something different and clearly not alluded to in this Biblical passage.

Science now

Science estimates that, far from incalculable, there are approximately 9 × 1021 stars in the observable universe. While it really is difficult to put an exact figure even on the number of stars in our own galaxy, the number is far from "incalculable" and just requires a few assumptions and honesty about the potential errors in calculation.[2]

As far as the number of "descendants of King David", the present population of the earth is less than 1010, which is a very small compared to the number of stars. To take the promise in Jeremiah literally, the number of descendants of David is not "countless" nor "measureless", as well as being far from the number of stars.

Science then

As with most stuff like this, the "1100 stars" thing isn't referenced to anything specific so it is difficult to track down. It is probably a reference to Ptolemy, who catalogued just under 1100 stars in The Almagest.[3] These were just the stars that Ptolemy said he was able to see and catalogue properly - that there are more than 1100 stars can be shown by even a casual glance at the sky on a clear night. This is decent enough science, but is quoted very heavily out of context.

The Greek mathematician Archimedes wrote a treatise, The Sand Reckoner, which took off from the concept of counting the number of grains of sand, not merely "on the seashore" but in the universe, to introduce a notation for very large numbers rather than just giving up. In brief, the "sand on the seashore" is not "measureless" and such things were thought of by early mathematicians.
[edit] Free float of Earth in space

The Bible
Job 26:7
Hebrew English
נֹטֶ֣ה צָפֹ֣ון עַל־תֹּ֑הוּ תֹּ֥לֶה אֶ֝֗רֶץ עַל־בְּלִי־מָֽה׃ He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing.

While fairly accurate this is contradicted by Psalm 104:5 "He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved" and is open to some wild interpretations - it's hardly the Bible accurately describing Kepler's laws. This passage, taken as literally as possible, describes that there is nothing under the Earth, hardly compatible with the above which states that the Earth is definitely a sphere. Translations also differ, the New King James Version as well as many others states that he "hangs the world on nothing" (as if to say, that there isn't a hook to hang it on). As it's clear, even to ancient peoples that the Earth (as a disk or sphere) is not a giant hanging basket, it doesn't particularly say much.

Job also goes on to say in the same set of verses that "He covers the face of the full moon, spreading his clouds over it" but we don't see clouds on the moon. At least those peddling Scientific Bible based woo have the option of cherry picking what can and can't be shoehorned into looking like reality. In fact, the entire chapter seems to be more like a bad trip.

Science now

Well, "free float in space" is hardly the right description at all. The Earth is very well held within the gravity of the Sun and influenced by the gravity of the other planets in the solar system. Orbital mechanics are quite well understood things; a free-floating planet would have to lie outside the Sun's gravitational field as a rogue planet.

Science then

The idea of the disk-like earth standing on the back of a turtle was a feature of Hindu (i.e., religious, not scientific) mythology. There are many "world turtles" or similar creatures that hold the world on their backs but they all have one thing in common - they're of religious and cultural origin and in no way scientific. Even by the standards of science "then".
[edit] Creation made of invisible elements

The Bible
Hebrews 11:3
Greek English
Πίστει νοοῦμεν κατηρτίσθαι τοὺς αἰῶνας ῥήματι θεοῦ εἰς τὸ μὴ ἐκ φαινομένων τὸ βλεπόμενον γεγονέναι. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Faith is the antithesis of the Scientific method.

Looking at the whole of Hebrews 11 we see that the chapter is about faith, and not really concerned about the actual factual content. What the verse may allude to outside of the context of talking about "by faith we believe x, y and z" is debatable. Whatever it means, it certainly makes no direct mention of atoms or elements or molecules or anything vaguely resembling structural chemistry or biology. It is also clear that the "invisible" that is being referred to is meant to be divine influence, not material parts.

Science now

When moving from the macroscopic to the microscopic - atomic and molecular - scale, visibility changes its meaning somewhat. Individual atoms are indeed too small to be seen with light that is visible to the human eye (they're much smaller than the wavelength of visible light), but their detection with spectroscopic methods demonstrates their presence and structure just fine. Atoms and elements are hardly invisible as in undetectable. X-Ray diffraction and neutron diffraction indicate the location of nuclei within a molecule with extreme precision, generating the closest to a "picture" of a molecule that we can reasonably expect given the physics of the molecular world.

Brownian motion can only be explained though the description of matter in discrete molecular or atom forms. This effect - the apparent random motion of dust in the air or coloured dye that is dropped into clear water - was used as one of the first pieces of evidence to indicate the existence of such "invisible" atoms and molecules.

Science then

Science was hardly ignorant on the subject, although the theories have come a long way in 2000 years. The theory of "four elements" and the concept of atoms dates back to the ancient Greeks (atom is Greek for "indivisible"), and similar theories date even further back, although none were universally accepted. Although largely an inaccurate description of reality at the atomic scale, these ideas were a phenomenological description of the world.
[edit] Each star is different

The Bible
1 Corinthians 15:41
Greek English
ἄλλη δόξα ἡλίου, καὶ ἄλλη δόξα σελήνης, καὶ ἄλλη δόξα ἀστέρων· ἀστὴρ γὰρ ἀστέρος διαφέρει ἐν δόξῃ. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

The original quote seems to imply that the Bible says that all stars will have a different chemical make up, characteristic of whether they are first generation or second generation, or their age. The actual Bible passage itself refers to "splendor" (or "glory" in other translations), this quality is not a quantifiable amount or remotely scientific. Given poetic license, it can be said that stars differ from each other in splendor or glory, while in more objective ways they are all just balls of gas.

It would be a very dubious translation indeed that changes "splendor/glory" to "spectral type" to make this more closely resemble what is claimed.
The Hubble Ultra Deep Field, this is a hell of a lot of stars...

Science now

All stars, in principle, are slightly different in terms of mass or chemical make up. This is just the way the universe works on a macroscopic level. But they are broadly grouped together in spectral classes. This is done through many methods; by analyzing the spectrum that is emitted by stars to identify the key elements contained in them, or by their size or brightness.[4]

Science then

To someone who lives in a modern urban setting and doesn't pay much attention to the skies, it might seem plausible that if you've seen one star, you've seen them all. Such an ignorant modern might guess that in ancient times, people were just as ignorant; but those who did observe the sky would readily see that stars are different in brightness and color. The earliest star catalogs, from all over the world, described the differences between the stars.[5] And, of course, there were those special "wandering stars", that is, the planets, with their individual movements described by peoples from Middle America to China (but not in the Bible).
[edit] Light moves

The Bible
Job 38:19-20
Hebrew English
אֵי־זֶ֣ה הַ֭דֶּרֶךְ יִשְׁכָּן־אֹ֑ור וְ֝חֹ֗שֶׁךְ אֵי־זֶ֥ה מְקֹמֹֽו׃
כִּ֣י תִ֭קָּחֶנּוּ אֶל־ גְּבוּלֹ֑ו וְכִֽי־ תָ֝בִ֗ין נְתִיבֹ֥ות בֵּיתֹֽו׃ What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings?

Far from explicitly stating that light moves, this paragraph suggests that both darkness and light dwell somewhere (so, maybe it's implied, but it's still hardly a good description of light). It also suggests that darkness is an actual thing, rather than just the mere absence of light; this is true on Discworld, where darkness must be faster than light because it can get out of light's way, but not in reality. It is also possible that the words 'light' and 'darkness' in this passage are being used as metaphors for knowledge and ignorance. While this makes more sense, it renders it irrelevant as evidence of scientific support for the modern concept of light.

Science now

The modern scientific view on light is tied up in Quantum Electrodynamics (QED). In this highly successful branch of quantum theory, light is described as a packet of energy in the form of a photon. Photons have both the properties of particles (that they can be counted in specific quanta as shown in the photoelectric effect) and the properties of waves (that they can interfere constructively or destructively and possess wavelength and phase). A more thorough description is beyond the scope of this article, but to say that "science says light moves" is a ridiculous simplification.

Science then

Wikipedia lists numerous historical beliefs about light,[6] the earliest being Hindu and Greek ideas. In the former, light was treated as if it was an element. In the latter, Empedocles suggested that the eye itself sent out a ray which allowed people to see (like sonar, radar or more relevantly, lidar), a mysterious interaction between this ray and the sun was used to explain why it was impossible to see in the dark. Shortly after this, the theory was revised to say that light was produced not by the eye, but by light sources and the eye only received and interpreted the light. Even as far back as 1000 AD/CE, light was agreed as having a finite, although impressively large, speed.

"Light is fixed in place" has little meaning (if it was fixed in place, how would it work, exactly?), but has no basis in either ancient ideas or semi-modern science.
[edit] Air has weight

The Bible
Job 28:25
Hebrew English
לַעֲשֹׂ֣ות לָר֣וּחַ מִשְׁקָ֑ל וּ֝מַ֗יִם תִּכֵּ֥ן בְּמִדָּֽה׃ When he established the force of the wind and measured out the waters.

Quite how this translates to "air has weight" is unknown. The term "force" suggests mass, but F=ma is nowhere in the Bible anyway. However, let's look at other translations: the "Amplified Bible" (whatever that means) has this passage as "When He gave to the wind weight or pressure and allotted the waters by measure", the King James version says "To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure". The Contemporary English Version merely states "When God divided out the wind and the water". The Skeptics Annotated Bible features no footnotes, cynical or otherwise. So, indeed, the Bible does say that the air has "weight", but the wording of the translation is somewhat disputed and it doesn't say much else.

Science now

Science now does indeed say that the wind has weight. The weight of the air above you at sea level is what produces 1 atmosphere of pressure. Science can go one further than the Bible. It can say how much weight, or how much mass, and do so quite accurately. It can tell us what gives the air its weight (molecules of gas) and the proportions of these that contribute to the weight of "air". And more, because the composition of air changes with altitude, its local mass density also changes with altitude. Air does have weight, and modern science can tell us far more about it than that.

Science then

Because we can't see clean air (N2, O2 and the major noble gases that comprise it are largely transparent to visible light) it's easy to think that it isn't there. However, wind clearly exerts a force, you can certainly feel it, and when it blows over a tree you can certainly see its effects. Fairly old science has talked of "ether", a weightless medium in which light travels, but this is not air and no one ever said it was. In short, this section is a complete lie.
[edit] Winds blow in cyclones

The Bible
Ecclesiastes 1:6
Hebrew English
הֹולֵךְ֙ אֶל־דָּרֹ֔ום וְסֹובֵ֖ב אֶל־צָפֹ֑ון סֹובֵ֤ב ׀ סֹבֵב֙ הֹולֵ֣ךְ הָר֔וּחַ וְעַל־סְבִיבֹתָ֖יו שָׁ֥ב הָרֽוּחַ׃ The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course.
One schematic of a cyclone according to modern observations shows that it's a little more than "round and round it goes".

What is quoted here is that the wind has a pattern; it can for all intents and purposes blow from any direction. The Bible here is describing a very weak cyclic pattern, but nothing concrete. No mention of the causes of cyclones or depressions or even the direction (which changes on opposite sides of the equator). There is no actual science in this passage, it may be a good observation but so is saying "the sky is blue".

Science now

Atmospheric science and meteorology is one of the most important scientific disciplines in the world. Predicting the weather is vital not just to make sure you pick the right day to go to the beach, but for harvesting crops, preparing transport networks for snow and boarding up houses and evacuating areas in the paths of hurricanes. Some of the world's most powerful supercomputers are dedicated to modeling the atmosphere and what it does and this requires precise reported data (from satellites, balloons and ground based stations) to be entered into an extremely complex modeling program. The level of complexity in the wind and atmosphere is immense and indescribable in a short paragraph. As seen previously, science knows quite a lot now.

Science then

No one has ever claimed that winds just blows "straight". This would be a foolish statement in conflict with even the most casual observations; releasing a leaf into the wind shows it is jostled about in many directions as it is carried along, winds in a tornado clearly move in a very tight, curved path. Winds change direction easily and commonly, but how would that be possible if they could only blow straight? Whoever stated that winds only blow straight - if Evidence Bible ever say where they're getting these ideas from - was certainly no scientist.
[edit] Blood is the source of life and health

The Bible
Leviticus 17:11
Hebrew English
כִּ֣י נֶ֣פֶשׁ הַבָּשָׂר֮ בַּדָּ֣ם הִוא֒ וַאֲנִ֞י נְתַתִּ֤יו לָכֶם֙ עַל־הַמִּזְבֵּ֔חַ לְכַפֵּ֖ר עַל־נַפְשֹׁתֵיכֶ֑ם כִּֽי־הַדָּ֥ם ה֖וּא בַּנֶּ֥פֶשׁ יְכַפֵּֽר׃ For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.
Life is in the blood, unless it's clogged with fat. Then death - fatty, greasy death - is in the blood.

"For the life of a creature is in the blood", well this is very true. Except for plants. And bacteria. And fungi. And most insects. But other than that, for animals that have blood it is immediately obvious that blood is very important. Most "dumb" animals do react badly to their own blood, knowing without even having the higher intelligence associated with (most) humans that it is deadly to bleed. The fact that the Bible states this fairly obvious point is nothing special.

A number of myths and half-truths around blood have appeared throughout the ages and recording such is not restricted solely to the Bible, Wikipedia has a list that should keep any interested individual entertained for some time.[7]

Science now

Before reading further, ask just one question: are there any documented cases of blood transfusion reviving someone already dead?

Blood is far from the "source" of life. For those living things that have blood it functions primarily as a delivery system between cells for oxygen and nutrients (and also a transport network for the immune response). Cells are perfectly able to survive in the absence of blood (a fortunate fact, as the vast majority of laboratory cell research is done without using blood), provided that the nutrients they need are readily available near them (typically via some nutrient-rich agar base).

Many living things do not actually have blood. Most insects lack a circulatory system, instead they rely on being small enough to absorb oxygen directly from the atmosphere. Plants also lack blood, although some plants are able transport nutrients dissolved in water via a process known as transpiration. Single-celled organisms such as amoeba and bacteria obviously do not require any means of "inter cellular transportation".

The statement that "blood is the source of life" is analogous to saying that delivery trucks "are the source of life", in the sense that these trucks deliver essential supplies to the regions that need them. Vertebrates need a lot of things to live (i.e. oxygen, nutrients, temperature regulation, light) and deprive a living thing of any one of them and death will tend to follow. If blood truly was "the source of life" it arguably follows that you could improve your health simply by injecting some into you.

Science then

At the time the Old Testament was written, there really wasn't any 'science' about blood to speak of. The Hellenistic theory of humorism (where blood was one of the four 'humors') was still a good few centuries away, and most attitudes towards blood (Israelite or otherwise) were rooted in myth and superstition. The idea that "blood is the source of life" was certainly not unique to the bible or the Hebrews - pretty much every tribal group ever studied has some variation on this theme. It can be presumed that even cavemen would have noticed that "loss of blood leads to death", and from there it is a short journey to the idea that "blood must be the source of life". There was certainly no concept of "blood as a nutrient transport system", the idea that blood circulates was not even suggested until the 12th century, and was not established until the 17th century (by William Harvey). The role of blood in the immune system was not established until the late 19th century.
[edit] Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains

The Bible
2 Samuel 22:16
Hebrew English
וַיֵּֽרָאוּ֙ אֲפִ֣קֵי יָ֔ם יִגָּל֖וּ מֹסְדֹ֣ות תֵּבֵ֑ל בְּגַעֲרַ֣ת יְהוָ֔ה מִנִּשְׁמַ֖ת ר֥וּחַ אַפֹּֽו׃ The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath from his nostrils.
Jonah 2:6
Hebrew English
לְקִצְבֵ֤י הָרִים֙ יָרַ֔דְתִּי הָאָ֛רֶץ בְּרִחֶ֥יהָ בַעֲדִ֖י לְעֹולָ֑ם וַתַּ֧עַל מִשַּׁ֛חַת חַיַּ֖י יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהָֽי׃ To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever. But you brought my life up from the pit, O LORD my God.

The passage from Jonah mentions only mountains, but in a wider context, Jonah is at the bottom of the sea at this point. However, is this science? It would certainly be difficult to produce a topological map with the technology available 2000-3000 years ago. Realistically, there are only two choices for predicting the appearance of the ocean floor; it's either flat or mountainous. Getting it right from a 50/50 chance is hardly impressive, particularly as common sense can inform this opinion quite easily.

Science now
One of the many deep trenches under the ocean floor, mapped by the US Geological Survey

The ocean floor is the least explored area in the world. It is often said that we know more about the surface of the moon than we do about the ocean, and the abyssal plain at the bottom of it. It is tremendously difficult to access to view and practically every deep excursion discovers something new. Real science is constantly being used to add to the knowledge known about the ocean floor. If the Bible had any real foreknowledge to predict for us, this would be an ideal subject for it to contribute to. Does it explain ocean floor chemistry or list any species we haven't observed yet? No. In that respect, the Voynich manuscript has a better chance of predicting what we will discover at the bottom of the sea.

The ocean floor is now well mapped. Sonar on ships and remote sensors on satellites are both used to precisely map the elevations of the sea floor without the need to visit it. These methods are extremely accurate and present some of the most advanced science and technology that we have developed thus far. The latest editions of Google Earth now feature ocean floor topography in quite extensive detail which can only improve as the project moves forward.

Science then

The idea that the ocean floor is flat was made up, in a similar manner to the prevalence of the flat earth. Any observation of the ocean floor, no matter how casual will reveal that its structure is far from flat. Casual swimmers in the Mediterranean are easily be able to spot the underwater cliffs and large rock formations that are abundant in its coastline, and Homer informs us that ancient Greek sailors were well aware of the many dangers that rocks posed, especially around Greece and Italy (qv. Google Maps).
[edit] Ocean contains springs

The Bible
Job 38:16
Hebrew English
הֲ֭בָאתָ עַד־נִבְכֵי־יָ֑ם וּבְחֵ֥קֶר תְּ֝הֹ֗ום הִתְהַלָּֽכְתָּ׃ Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep?

Most of the Bible can be read as metaphorical or poetic, but we will waive this point again. This passage mentions springs. Nothing else. Where is the mention of "underwater lakes" made of far more dense salt water, or the deep sea vents that have temperatures well over 100°C? Where does it mention the life that grows by these springs? Again, this is hardly a scientific finding. The rest of this section of Job is also a bit weird, mentioning a lot of things that make no sense, from putting garments on clouds to putting the oceans behind doors, truly this is cherry picking at its finest.

Science now

As with the previous section, the ocean floor is at the forefront of exploration. We journey to the ocean floor in very well constructed submersible vehicles to study these things and new facts appear all the time.

Science then

Strangely this is actually fairly accurate. Has science changed for the worse? No, clearly. There is only a finite amount of water (H2O) on the planet. This is cycled through in what is rather unimaginatively titled the Water Cycle. Water evaporates from the ocean surface (specifically, only the very top layer that is barely a few meters deep, exchanges with the deeper ocean below this top layer are on a much greater timescale), clouds form, it rains and this rain feeds rivers (or the ocean directly), the rivers feed the ocean and the cycle continues. Contrary to what the interpretation of the Biblical statements and the "science" seem to imply, there are no magic springs below the ocean feeding water into them from nowhere.
[edit] When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water

The Bible
Leviticus 15:13
Hebrew English
וְכִֽי־יִטְהַ֤ר הַזָּב֙ מִזֹּובֹ֔ו וְסָ֨פַר לֹ֜ו שִׁבְעַ֥ת יָמִ֛ים לְטָהֳרָתֹ֖ו וְכִבֶּ֣ס בְּגָדָ֑יו וְרָחַ֧ץ בְּשָׂרֹ֛ו בְּמַ֥יִם חַיִּ֖ים וְטָהֵֽר׃ When a man is cleansed from his discharge, he is to count off seven days for his ceremonial cleansing; he must wash his clothes and bathe himself with fresh water, and he will be clean.

This seems fine advice! Wash your hands in fresh water, and the freshest water is always at the source where it's running. But let's take Leviticus 15 in a wider context for a moment. The verses immediately after states:
On the eighth day he must take two doves or two young pigeons and come before the LORD to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and give them to the priest. The priest is to sacrifice them, the one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement before the LORD for the man because of his discharge.

...nothing particularly "science-like" there. Let's also look at what this "discharge" is by skipping to the end of Leviticus 15:
These are the regulations for a man with a discharge, for anyone made unclean by an emission of semen.

The "discharge" is semen and the entire chapter is devoted to sex and the "issue", also called masturbation nocturnal emission. The chapter also goes on and mentions female periods and that anyone touching the woman is "unclean" - that's touching the blood or just the woman. This is Biblical foreknowledge at its best, because the medical literature is so obviously inundated with articles and papers on cooties.[8]

Ignoring the actual context of Leviticus and focusing solely on the instruction about bathing, this can be interpreted as potentially decent advice regarding hygiene. Regardless it certainly wasn't interpreted that way by anyone until well after the discovery of modern antiseptic practices in the 19th century. (See Ignaz Semmelweis).

Science now

Water is fresh at the source because it has usually just been put there by rain, which tends to be clean, or even better, is a spring fed by an aquifer. It is filtered through rock and gravel which pull out all the usual shit that's suspended in it. The water at the source also hasn't passed by fields full of animals (or worse, people) so hasn't been contaminated by their waste or, in the modern context, their fertilizers and chemicals. Fresh spring water is about as close to clean as you can get (ignoring, for the moment, underground plumes of man-made contaminants).

Modern medicine has many antibiotics, disinfectant and sterilizing solutions, and treatments for cleaning and dealing with disease. "Science Now" therefore, would be unlikely to recommend plain, fresh water for anything. At the very least, "soap" would be part of the recipe, and the water would either be highly purified distilled water or similarly clean saline.

Science then

Whatever the source for the statement that one should wash in still water, it was certainly not scientific in origin. Most cultures throughout history have learned the hard way that stagnant water can easily harbour dirt and infection. The odds are that this is statement is derived from the Greek tradition of bathing, something not particularly liked by all cultures of the ancient world.[9] As with most "science" of ancient times, facts and figures were mostly bullshit, pulled out at random because the important thing was not to have evidence but to have a vaguely sensible idea.
[edit] Conclusion
Science in the Bible

The idea of fideism is that faith is the most important thing of all, above evidence, above reason, above logic. It essentially states that you just have to believe, and ignore the evidence against you; these are just tests of faith, after all. However, for some, this faith is not enough, they need to prove it, and they want to prove it desperately. This is where things like this come in. Documentaries called "Proving The Bible True" or books like "Evidence Bible" play on the fears that people have their their own faith in religion isn't strong enough. The result is that these people are then fed a pack of complete and utter lies and misrepresentations in order to back up their prejudices and pre-existing beliefs. The actual original meaning of "prove" is "to test", so if you want to go out and prove something, you need to be prepared to disprove it too. This is how science works, you test and you find out what is right and what is wrong - and then you test it again. Without this ability to say that you are wrong, or that your data was misleading, or that a new theory is better, science is nothing. And this is what we see here, with things like "Evidence Bible", they try to put it forward as scientific, but forget that the evidence can disprove their notions rather than back them up. Faced with this massive dilemma - accept the evidence and lose the beliefs, or keep the beliefs and just ignore the evidence as a test of faith - they take the option to misconstrue the evidence, lie, cheat and quote-mine their way out of an unwinnable situation.

This poster and card set titled "Science Confirms the Bible" is extremely simple and things like it are extremely common. Anyone with any specialty in the subjects mentioned can see the problems with it immediately, where the errors are, where the misrepresentations lies. Anyone with access to a Bible can also see the problems immediately, problems with translations or dubious interpretations. It's not difficult to debunk, but it is time consuming so why do it? The answer is simple; the key to the success of "Science Confirms the Bible" and similar efforts by fundamentalists is its simplicity. These things are given to school children who will take what they are given as fact and will understand it because of the ease of the language. This is a distortion, a caricature or parody of real science and these simple statements are outright wrong and devalue what science has actually given the world. Such things cannot go around completely unrefuted or even worse, merely laughed off as silly. The latter, especially, gets you nowhere; why just say that someone is wrong when you can prove it?
[edit] See also

Evidence against a recent creation
Biblical literalism
Biblical contradictions
Biblical scientific foreknowledge
Eternal Productions:101 Scientific Facts and Foreknowledge
101 evidences for a young age of the earth and the universe
Gish gallop

[edit] External links

Evidence Bible homepage

[edit] Footnotes

↑ Esa.int - Earth's gravity revealed in unprecedented detail
↑ Stars v sand
↑ About.com - Ptolemy's Catalog of the Stars
↑ Atlas of the Universe - The Classification of Stars
↑ Wikipedia on historical star catalogues
↑ See the Wikipedia article on theories about light.
↑ See the Wikipedia article on Cultural and religious beliefs about blood.
↑ ISI's Web of Knowledge indexes two articles about cooties. "The Cooties Complex" Samuelson, S., Western Folklaw. 39, 3, 198-210 (1980) and "Nit-picking - Confusion and controversy continue over cooties" Goldsmith, J., American Journal of Nursing, 103, 9, 22-23 (2003)
↑ Times Online - An unsanitised history of washing

Categories:

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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wow, since you cannot touch the nail wounds in the palms and feet of Jesus, I guess you shouldn't be calling yourself a Catholic nor believe in God, Jesus or even discuss the ark. 

After all, if the scientific evidence was there ...


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## Pixiedust (Aug 30, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> My words are the Truth - as a Christian should speak. Perhaps the love of God would soften your heart. Give God a try!


I see why the people are upset in here. I don't have to give God a try, he is a huge part of my life. But you should not be speaking to other people like you do and call yourself Christian.
Your idea of the Truth is quite twisted. Jesus wouldn't want for you to be belittling and calling names at anyone who does not share your point of view. You are very, very judgemental.
Maybe you should look at softening your own heart, if you have one.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> I ask again, what would you consider proof? There is no scientific proof for the bible.


Here is another site pardoquilts. 01 Scientific Facts & Foreknowledge

Psalm 19:1-3  The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork. Day unto day utters speech, and night unto night reveals knowledge. There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard.

Jeremiah 10:12  He has made the earth by His power, He has established the world by His wisdom, and has stretched out the heavens at His discretion.

Romans 1:20  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

Science means knowledge, and true science always agrees with the observable evidence. Scientific research continues to unfold the wonders and mysteries of our universe. Interestingly, there is one book that has anticipated many of these scientific facts. That book is the Bible.
This booklet presents 101 scientific facts found in the Scriptures. Many of these facts were penned centuries before they were discovered. Scientific foreknowledge found only in the Bible offers one more piece to the collective proof that the Bible is truly the inspired Word of the Creator. How does this affect you? The last several pages provide the answer  you need to read them carefully.

1.
The earth free-floats in space (Job 26:7), affected only by gravity. While other sources declared the earth sat on the back of an elephant or turtle, or was held up by Atlas, the Bible alone states what we now know to be true  He hangs the earth on nothing.

Visit:
Modern Science In An Ancient (ICR)

2.
Creation is made of particles, indiscernible to our eyes (Hebrews 11:3). Not until the 19th century was it discovered that all visible matter consists of invisible elements.

Visit:
All About Atoms (Jefferson Lab)

3.
The Bible specifies the perfect dimensions for a stable water vessel (Genesis 6:15). Ship builders today are well aware that the ideal dimension for ship stability is a length six times that of the width. Keep in mind, God told Noah the ideal dimensions for the ark 4,500 years ago.

Visit:
The Arks perfect dimensions (Answers In Genesis)
Safety investigation of Noahs Ark in a seaway (Answers In Genesis)
Noahs Flood and the Gilgamesh Epic (Answers In Genesis)

4.
When dealing with disease, clothes and body should be washed under running water (Leviticus 15:13). For centuries people naively washed in standing water. Today we recognize the need to wash away germs with fresh water.

Visit:
-Why do I need to wash my hands?

5.
Sanitation industry birthed (Deuteronomy 23:12-13). Some 3,500 years ago God commanded His people to have a place outside the camp where they could relieve themselves. They were to each carry a shovel so that they could dig a hole (latrine) and cover their waste. Up until World War I, more soldiers died from disease than war because they did not isolate human waste.

Visit:
The First Book Of Public Hygiene (Answers In Genesis)
Modern medicine? (Answers In Genesis)

6.
Oceans contain springs (Job 38:16). The ocean is very deep. Almost all the ocean floor is in total darkness and the pressure there is enormous. It would have been impossible for Job to have explored the "springs of the sea." Until recently, it was thought that oceans were fed only by rivers and rain. Yet in the 1970s, with the help of deep diving research submarines that were constructed to withstand 6,000 pounds-per-square-inch pressure, oceanographers discovered springs on the ocean floors!

Visit:
Springs of the Ocean (ICR)

7.
There are mountains on the bottom of the ocean floor (Jonah 2:5-6). Only in the last century have we discovered that there are towering mountains and deep trenches in the depths of the sea.

Visit:
Numerical Simulations Of Precipitation Induced By Hot Mid-Ocean Ridges (ICR)

8.
Joy and gladness understood (Acts 14:17). Evolution cannot explain emotions. Matter and energy do not feel. Scripture explains that God places gladness in our hearts (Psalm 4:7), and ultimate joy is found only in our Creators presence  in Your presence is fullness of joy (Psalm 16:11).

9.
Blood is the source of life and health (Leviticus 17:11; 14). Up until 120 years ago, sick people were bled and many died as a result (e.g. George Washington). Today we know that healthy blood is necessary to bring life-giving nutrients to every cell in the body. God declared that the life of the flesh is in the blood long before science understood its function.

Visit:
Life in the Blood (ICR)

10.
The Bible states that God created life according to kinds (Genesis 1:24). The fact that God distinguishes kinds, agrees with what scientists observe  namely that there are horizontal genetic boundaries beyond which life cannot vary. Life produces after its own kind. Dogs produce dogs, cats produce cats, roses produce roses. Never have we witnessed one kind changing into another kind as evolution supposes. There are truly natural limits to biological change.

Visit:
Things You May Not Know About Evolution (ICR)
Creation - Evolution (ICR)
Evolution and the Bible (ICR)
The Fossil Record: Intermediate Links (ChristianAnswers.net)
Archaeopteryx A Feathered Reptile? (ChristianAnswers.net)
The Ape-Man: Missing Link (ChristianAnswers.net)
Biological Evolution Darwin's Finches (ChristianAnswers.net)

11.
Noble behavior understood (John 15:13; Romans 5:7-8). The Bible and history reveal that countless people have endangered or even sacrificed their lives for another. This reality is completely at odds with Darwins theory of the survival of the fittest.

12.
Chicken or egg dilemma solved (Genesis 1:20-22). Which came first, the chicken or the egg? This question has plagued philosophers for centuries. The Bible states that God created birds with the ability to reproduce after their kind. Therefore the chicken was created first with the ability to make eggs! Yet, evolution has no solution for this dilemma.

Visit:
What Came First, the Chicken or the Egg? (ICR)
The Egg/Chicken Conundrum (ICR)

13.
Which came first, proteins or DNA (Revelation 4:11)? For evolutionists, the chicken or egg dilemma goes even deeper. Chickens consist of proteins. The code for each protein is contained in the DNA/RNA system. However, proteins are required in order to manufacture DNA. So which came first: proteins or DNA? The ONLY explanation is that they were created together.

Visit:
Things that are Made (ICR)
Evolution Hopes You Don't Know Chemistry: The Problem with Chirality (ICR)
Origin of Life: Critique of Early Stage Chemical Evolution Theories (ICR)
The Origin of Life: Theories on the Origin of Biological Order (ICR)

14.
Our bodies are made from the dust of the ground (Genesis 2:7; 3:19). Scientists have discovered that the human body is comprised of some 28 base and trace elements  all of which are found in the earth.

Visit:
The elements of the periodic table sorted by their presence in human body. (Lenntech)
The Bible is a Textbook of Science (ICR)

15.
The First Law of Thermodynamics established (Genesis 2:1-2). The First Law states that the total quantity of energy and matter in the universe is a constant. One form of energy or matter may be converted into another, but the total quantity always remains the same. Therefore the creation is finished, exactly as God said way back in Genesis.

Visit:
Modern Scientific Discoveries Verify the Scriptures (Institute For Creation Research)

16.
The first three verses of Genesis accurately express all known aspects of the creation (Genesis 1:1-3). Science expresses the universe in terms of: time, space, matter, and energy. In Genesis chapter one we read: In the beginning (time) God created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter)Then God said, Let there be light (energy). No other creation account agrees with the observable evidence.

17.
The universe had a beginning (Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 1:10-12). Starting with the studies of Albert Einstein in the early 1900s and continuing today, science has confirmed the biblical view that the universe had a beginning. When the Bible was written most people believed the universe was eternal. Science has proven them wrong, but the Bible correct.

Visit:
Modern Scientific Discoveries Verify the Scriptures (Institute For Creation Research)

18.
The earth is a sphere (Isaiah 40:22). At a time when many thought the earth was flat, the Bible told us that the earth is spherical.

Visit:
Does the Bible Teach a Spherical Earth
Did Bible writers believe the earth was flat? (CristianAnswers.net)

19.
Scripture assumes a revolving (spherical) earth (Luke 17:34-36). Jesus said that at His return some would be asleep at night while others would be working at day time activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night occurring simultaneously.

20.
Origin of the rainbow explained (Genesis 9:13-16). Prior to the Flood there was a different environment on the earth (Genesis 2:5-6). After the Flood, God set His rainbow in the cloud as a sign that He would never again judge the earth by water. Meteorologists now understand that a rainbow is formed when the sun shines through water droplets  which act as a prism  separating white light into its color spectrum.

Visit:
What causes a rainbow? (CristianAnswers.net)
The Rainbow And The Cloud (ICR)

21.
Light can be divided (Job 38:24). Sir Isaac Newton studied light and discovered that white light is made of seven colors, which can be parted and then recombined. Science confirmed this four centuries ago  God declared this four millennia ago!

22.
Ocean currents anticipated (Psalm 8:8). Three thousand years ago the Bible described the paths of the seas. In the 19th century Matthew Maury  the father of oceanography  after reading Psalm 8, researched and discovered ocean currents that follow specific paths through the seas! Utilizing Maurys data, marine navigators have since reduced by many days the time required to traverse the seas.

Visit:
Modern Scientific Discoveries Verify the Scriptures (Institute For Creation Research)

23.
Sexual promiscuity is dangerous to your health (1 Corinthians 6:18; Romans 1:27). The Bible warns that he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body, and that those who commit homosexual sin would receive in themselves the penalty of their error. Much data now confirms that any sexual relationship outside of holy matrimony is unsafe.

Visit
Sex Habits Linked to Early Death, Disability (Fox News)

24.
Reproduction explained (Genesis 1:27-28; 2:24; Mark 10:6-8). While evolution has no mechanism to explain how male and female reproductive organs evolved at the same time, the Bible says that from the beginning God made them male and female in order to propagate the human race and animal kinds.

25.
Incalculable number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22). At a time when less than 5,000 stars were visible to the human eye, God stated that the stars of heaven were innumerable. Not until the 17th century did Galileo glimpse the immensity of our universe with his new telescope. Today, astronomers estimate that there are ten thousand billion trillion stars  thats a 1 followed by 25 zeros! Yet, as the Bible states, scientists admit this number may be woefully inadequate.

Visit:
The Stars of Heaven (Institute For Creation Research)

26.
The number of stars, though vast, are finite (Isaiah 40:26). Although man is unable to calculate the exact number of stars, we now know their number is finite. Of course God knew this all along  He counts the number of the stars; He calls them all by name (Psalm 147:4). What an awesome God!

Visit:
The Stars of Heaven (Institute For Creation Research)

27.
The Bible compares the number of stars with the number of grains of sand on the seashore (Genesis 22:17; Hebrews 11:12). Amazingly, gross estimates of the number of sand grains are comparable to the estimated number of stars in the universe.

Visit:
The Stars of Heaven (Institute For Creation Research)

28.
Rejecting the Creator results in moral depravity (Romans 1:20-32). The Bible warns that when mankind rejects the overwhelming evidence for a Creator, lawlessness will result. Since the theory of evolution has swept the globe, abortion, pornography, genocide, etc., have all risen sharply.

Visit:
Evolution and the American Abortion Mentality (ICR)
Is Creation One of the Traditional Values? (ICR)
Darwin's Influence on Ruthless Laissez Faire Capitalism (ICR)
Would China Benefit from Christianity? (ICR)

29.
The fact that God once flooded the earth (the Noahic Flood) would be denied (2 Peter 3:5-6). There is a mass of fossil evidence to prove this fact, yet it is flatly ignored by most of the scientific world because it was Gods judgment on mans wickedness.

30.
Vast fossil deposits anticipated (Genesis 7). When plants and animals die they decompose rapidly. Yet billions of life forms around the globe have been preserved as fossils. Geologists now know that fossils only form if there is rapid deposition of life buried away from scavengers and bacteria. This agrees exactly with what the Bible says occurred during the global Flood.

Visit:
The Origin of Coal (ICR)

31.
The continents were created as one large land mass (Genesis 1:9-10). Many geologists agree there is strong evidence that the earth was originally one super continent  just as the Bible said way back in Genesis.

32.
Continental drift inferred (Genesis 7:11). Today the study of the ocean floor indicates that the landmasses have been ripped apart. Scripture states that during the global Flood the fountains of the great deep were broken up. This cataclysmic event apparently resulted in the continental plates breaking and shifting.

Visit:
Recent Rapid Uplift of Today's Mountains (ICR)
Continental Drift, Plate Tectonics, and the Bible (ICR)

33.
Ice Age inferred (Job 38:29-30). Prior to the global Flood the earth was apparently subtropical. However shortly after the Flood, the Bible mentions ice often  By the breath of God ice is given, and the broad waters are frozen (Job 37:10). Evidently the Ice Age occurred in the centuries following the Flood.

Visit:
Recent Rapid Uplift of Today's Mountains (ICR)
Continental Drift, Plate Tectonics, and the Bible (ICR)
The Ice Age and the Genesis Flood (ICR)

34.
Life begins at fertilization (Jeremiah 1:5). God declares that He knew us before we were born. The biblical penalty for murdering an unborn child was death (Exodus 21:22-23). Today, it is an irrefutable biological fact that the fertilized egg is truly an entire human being. Nothing will be added to the first cell except nutrition and oxygen.

Visit:
Is the unborn human less than human? (CristianAnswers.net)
Cloning: Redefining When Life Begins Exposing Flaws in the Preembryo-Embryo Distinction (ICR)

35.
God fashions and knits us together in the womb (Job 10:8-12; 31:15). Science was ignorant concerning embryonic development until recently. Yet many centuries ago, the Bible accurately described God making us an intricate unity in the womb.

Visit:
Does The Human Embryo Go Through Animal Stages? (ICR)

36.
DNA anticipated (Psalm 139:13-16). During the 1950s, Watson and Crick discovered the genetic blueprint for life. Three thousand years ago the Bible seems to reference this written digital code in Psalm 139  Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect [unformed]; and in Thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Visit:
Curiously Wrought (ICR)

37.
God has created all mankind from one blood (Acts 17:26; Genesis 5). Today researchers have discovered that we have all descended from one gene pool. For example, a 1995 study of a section of Y chromosomes from 38 men from different ethnic groups around the world was consistent with the biblical teaching that we all come from one man (Adam)

Visit:
One Blood: The biblical answer to racism (CristianAnswers.net)
Where Did The Races Come From? (ICR)

38.
Origin of the major language groups explained (Genesis 11). After the rebellion at Babel, God scattered the people by confounding the one language into many languages. Evolution teaches that we all evolved from a common ancestor, yet offers no mechanism to explain the origin of the thousands of diverse languages in existence today.

Visit:
Language, Creation and the Inner Man (ICR)
On the Origin of Language (ICR)

39.
Origin of the different races explained (Genesis 11). As Noahs descendants migrated around the world after Babel, each language group developed distinct features based on environment and genetic variation. Those with a genetic makeup suitable to their new environment survived to reproduce. Over time, certain traits (such as dark skin color for those closer to the equator) dominated. Genesis alone offers a reasonable answer to the origin of the races and languages.

Visit:
Where did the human races come from? (CristianAnswers.net)
Evolution and Modern Racism (ICR)

40.
God has given us the leaves of the trees as medicine (Ezekiel 47:12; Revelation 22:2). Ancient cultures utilized many herbal remedies. Today, modern medicine has rediscovered what the Bible has said all along  there are healing compounds found in plants.

41.
Healthy dietary laws (Leviticus 11:9-12). Scripture states that we should avoid those sea creatures which do not have fins or scales. We now know that bottom-feeders (those with no scales or fins) tend to consume waste and are likely to carry disease.

Visit:
The Dietary Law (Pacific Heath Center)
Bulletin Of The History Of Medicine (Johns Hopkins Institute)

42.
The Bible warns against eating birds of prey (Leviticus 11:13-19). Scientists now recognize that those birds which eat carrion (putrefying flesh), often spread disease.

Visit:
The Dietary Law (Pacific Heath Center)
Bulletin Of The History Of Medicine (Johns Hopkins Institute)

43.
Avoid swine (Deuteronomy 14:8). Not so long ago, science learned that eating undercooked pork causes an infection of parasites called trichinosis. Now consider this: the Bible forbid the eating of swine more than 3,000 years before we learned how to cook pork safely.

Visit:
The Dietary Law (Pacific Heath Center)
Relationship between pork consumption and cirrhosis. (NCBI)
Bulletin Of The History Of Medicine (Johns Hopkins Institute)

44.
Radical environmentalism foreseen (Romans 1:25). Two thousand years ago, Gods Word stated that many would worship and serve creation rather than the Creator. Today, nature is revered as Mother and naturalism is enshrined.

Visit:
Earth Day, Environmentalism, and the Bible (ICR)
The Bible, Creation, and Ecology (ICR)
The Hyper-Environmentalists (ICR)

45.
Black holes and dark matter anticipated (Matthew 25:30; Jude 1:13; Isaiah 50:3). Cosmologists now speculate that over 98% of the known universe is comprised of dark matter, with dark energy and black holes. A black holes gravitational field is so strong that nothing, not even light, escapes. Beyond the expanding universe there is no measured radiation and therefore only outer darkness exists. These theories paint a seemingly accurate description of what the Bible calls outer darkness or the blackness of darkness forever.

Visit:
The Outer Darkness (ICR)

46.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics (Entropy) explained (Psalm 102:25-26). This law states that everything in the universe is running down, deteriorating, constantly becoming less and less orderly. Entropy (disorder) entered when mankind rebelled against God  resulting in the curse (Genesis 3:17; Romans 8:20-22). Historically most people believed the universe was unchangeable. Yet modern science verifies that the universe is grow(ing) old like a garment (Hebrews 1:11). Evolution directly contradicts this law.

Visit:
Modern Scientific Discoveries Verify the Scriptures (Institute For Creation Research)
Cosmic Evolution: The Big Bang and the Second Law of Thermodynamics (ChrisitanAnswers.net)

47.
Cains wife discovered (Genesis 5:4). Skeptics point out that Cain had no one to marry  therefore the Bible must be false. However, the Bible states plainly that Adam and Eve had other sons and daughters. Cain married his sister.

Visit:
Where did Cain get his wife? (CristianAnswers.net)
Cain's Wife: It Really Does Matter! (ICR)

48.
Incest laws established (Leviticus 18:6). To marry near of kin in the ancient world was common. Yet, beginning about 1500 B.C., God forbid this practice. The reason is simple  the genetic mutations (resulting from the curse) had a cumulative effect. Though Cain could safely marry his sister because the genetic pool was still relatively pure at that time, by Moses day the genetic errors had swelled. Today, geneticists confirm that the risk of passing on a genetic abnormality to your child is much greater if you marry a close relative because relatives are more likely to carry the same defective gene. If they procreate, their offspring are more apt to have this defect expressed.

Visit:
The Blind Gunman (ICR)

49.
Genetic mixing of different seeds forbidden (Leviticus 19:19; Deuteronomy 22:9). The Bible warns against mixing seeds  as this will result in an inferior or dangerous crop. There is now growing evidence that unnatural, genetically engineered crops may be harmful.

50.
Hydrological cycle described (Ecclesiastes 1:7; Jeremiah 10:13; Amos 9:6). Four thousand years ago the Bible declared that God draws up drops of water, which distill as rain from the mist, which the clouds drop down and pour abundantly on man (Job 36:27-28). The ancients observed mighty rivers flowing into the ocean, but they could not conceive why the sea level never rose. Though they observed rainfall, they had only quaint theories as to its origin. Meteorologists now understand that the hydrological cycle consists of evaporation, atmospheric transportation, distillation, and precipitation.

51.
The sun goes in a circuit (Psalm 19:6). Some scientists scoffed at this verse thinking that it taught geocentricity  the theory that the sun revolves around the earth. They insisted the sun was stationary. However, we now know that the sun is traveling through space at approximately 600,000 miles per hour. It is literally moving through space in a huge circuit  just as the Bible stated 3,000 years ago!

52.
Circumcision on the eighth day is ideal (Genesis 17:12; Leviticus 12:3; Luke 1:59). Medical science has discovered that the blood clotting chemical prothrombin peaks in a newborn on the eighth day. This is therefore the safest day to circumcise a baby. How did Moses know?!

Visit:
Biblical Accuracy and Circumcision on the 8th Day (Apologetics Press)

53.
God has given us just the right amount of water to sustain life (Isaiah 40:12). We now recognize that if there was significantly more or less water, the earth would not support life as we know it.

Visit:
The Anthropic Principle: Is the Earth Fine-Tuned for Life? (ChristianAnswers.net)

54.
The earth was designed for biological life (Isaiah 45:18). Scientists have discovered that the most fundamental characteristics of our earth and cosmos are so finely tuned that if just one of them were even slightly different, life as we know it couldn't exist. This is called the Anthropic Principle and it agrees with the Bible which states that God formed the earth to be inhabited.

Visit:
The Earth: Unique in All the Universe (ICR)
Design in Nature: The Anthropic Principle (ICR)

55.
The universe is expanding (Job 9:8; Isaiah 42:5; Jeremiah 51:15; Zechariah 12:1). Repeatedly God declares that He stretches out the heavens. During the early 20th century, most scientists (including Einstein) believed the universe was static. Others believed it should have collapsed due to gravity. Then in 1929, astronomer Edwin Hubble showed that distant galaxies were receding from the earth, and the further away they were, the faster they were moving. This discovery revolutionized the field of astronomy. Eisntein admitted his mistake, and today most astronomers agree with what the Creator told us millennia ago  the universe is expanding!

Visit:
The Battle for the Cosmic Center (ICR)

56.
Law of Biogenesis explained (Genesis 1). Scientists observe that life only comes from existing life. This law has never been violated under observation or experimentation (as evolution imagines). Therefore life, Gods life, created all life.

Visit:
Chemical Evolution: Spontaneous generation; Stanley Miller Experiment (ChristianAnswers.net)
Evolution is Biologically Impossible (ICR)
The Myth Of Chemical Evolution (ICR)
Virgil's Aeneid, by Chance Alone? (ICR)
The Origin of Life: Theories on the Origin of Biological Order (ICR)

57.
Animal and plant extinction explained (Jeremiah 12:4; Hosea 4:3). According to evolution, occasionally we should witness a new kind springing into existence. Yet, this has never been observed. On the contrary, as Scripture explains, since the curse on all creation, we observe death and extinction (Romans 8:20-22).

Visit:
How did bad things come about? (CristianAnswers.net)
Extinction (ICR)
Chicxulub and the Demise of the Dinosaurs (ICR)

58.
Light travels in a path (Job 38:19). Light is said to have a way [Hebrew: derek, literally a traveled path or road]. Until the 17th century it was believed that light was transmitted instantaneously. We now know that light is a form of energy that travels at ~186,000 miles per second in a straight line. Indeed, there is a way of light.

Visit:
Light travels in a path was foretold in the Bible hundreds of years before scientists discovered it (creationists.org)

59.
Air has weight (Job 28:25). It was once thought that air was weightless. Yet 4,000 years ago Job declared that God established a weight for the wind. In recent years, meteorologists have calculated that the average thunderstorm holds thousands of tons of rain. To carry this load, air must have mass.

60.
Jet stream anticipated (Ecclesiastes 1:6). At a time when it was thought that winds blew straight, the Bible declares The wind goes toward the south, and turns around to the north; The wind whirls about continually, and comes again on its circuit. King Solomon wrote this 3,000 years ago. Now consider this: it was not until World War II that airmen discovered the jet stream circuit.

61.
Medical quarantine instituted (Leviticus 13:45-46; Numbers 5:1-4). Long before man understood the principles of quarantine, God commanded the Israelites to isolate those with a contagious disease until cured.

Visit:
The First Book Of Public Hygiene (Answers In Genesis)
Modern medicine? (Answers In Genesis)

62.
Each star is unique (1 Corinthians 15:41). Centuries before the advent of the telescope, the Bible declared what only God and the angels knew  each star varies in size and intensity!

Visit:
The Stars of Heaven (Institute For Creation Research)

63.
The Bible says that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech (Job 38:35). We now know that radio waves and light waves are two forms of the same thing  electromagnetic waves. Therefore, radio waves are a form of light. Today, using radio transmitters, we can send lightnings which indeed speak when they arrive.

64.
Laughter promotes physical healing (Proverbs 17:22). Recent studies confirm what King Solomon was inspired to write 3,000 years ago, A merry heart does good, like medicine. For instance, laughter reduces levels of certain stress hormones. This brings balance to the immune system, which helps your body fight off disease.

Visit:
Benefits of Laughter (Personal-Development.com)
Humor and Laughter: Health Benefits and Online Sources (helpguide.org)

65.
Intense sorrow or stress is harmful to your health (Proverbs 18:14; Mark 14:34). Researchers have studied individuals with no prior medical problems who showed symptoms of stress cardiomyopathy including chest pain, difficulty breathing, low blood pressure, and even heart failure  following a stressful incident.

Visit:
The Physical Dangers of Stress (Fitness Article)

66.
Microorganisms anticipated (Exodus 22:31). The Bible warns Whatever dies naturally or is torn by beasts he shall not eat, to defile himself with it: I am the LORD (Leviticus 22:8). Today we understand that a decaying carcass is full of disease causing germs.

67.
The Bible cautions against consuming fat (Leviticus 7:23). Only in recent decades has the medical community determined that fat clogs arteries and contributes to heart disease.

68.
Do not consume blood (Leviticus 17:12). A common ritual in many religions in the ancient world was to drink blood. However, the Creator repeatedly told His people to abstain from blood (Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 3:17; Acts 15:20; 21:25). Of course, modern science reveals that consuming raw blood is dangerous.

69.
The Bible describes dinosaurs (Job 40:15-24). In 1842, Sir Richard Owen coined the word dinosaur, meaning terrible lizard, after discovering large reptilian-like fossils. However in the Book of Job, written 4,000 years earlier, God describes the behemoth as: the largest of all land creatures, plant eating (herbivore), with great strength in its hips and legs, powerful stomach muscles, a tail like a cedar tree, and bones like bars of iron. This is an accurate description of sauropods  the largest known dinosaur family.

Visit:
The Great Dinosaur Mystery (CristianAnswers.net)
How Do The Dinosaurs Fit In? (ICR)
Did Dinosaurs Survive The Flood? (ICR)
Dragons in Paradise (ICR)
Leviathan (ICR)
Dinosaurs And The Bible (ICR)
Dinosaur Mania and Our Children (ICR)

70.
Pleasure explained (Psalm 36:8). Evolution cannot explain pleasure  even the most complex chemicals do not experience bliss. However, the Bible states that God gives us richly all things to enjoy (1 Timothy 6:17). Pleasure is a gift from God.

71.
Life is more than matter and energy (Genesis 2:7; Job 12:7-10). We know that if a creature is denied air it dies. Even though its body may be perfectly intact, and air and energy are reintroduced to spark life, the body remains dead. Scripture agrees with the observable evidence when it states that only God can give the breath of life. Life cannot be explained by raw materials, time, and chance alone  as evolutionists would lead us to believe.

Visit:
Breath And Spirit (ICR)

72.
Origin of music explained (Psalm 40:3). Evolution cannot explain the origin of music. The Bible says that every good gift comes from God (James 1:17). This includes joyful melodies. God has given both man and angels the gift of music-making (Genesis 4:21; Ezekiel 28:13). Singing is intended to express rejoicing in and worship of the Lord (Job 38:7; Psalm 95:1-2).

Visit:
Music or Evolution
Musicevidence of creation (Answers In Genesis)

73.
Our ancestors were not primitive (Genesis 4:20-22; Job 8:8-10; 12:12). Archeologists have discovered that our ancestors mined, had metallurgical factories, created air-conditioned buildings, designed musical instruments, studied the stars, and much more. This evidence directly contradicts the theory of evolution, but agrees completely with Gods Word.

Visit:
Ancient civilizations and modern man (Answers In Genesis)
The mystery of ancient man (Answers In Genesis)
Language, Creation and the Inner Man (ICR)

74.
Cavemen described in the Bible (Job 30:1-8). Four thousand years ago, Job describes certain vile men who were driven from society to forage among the bushes for survival and who live in the clefts of the valleys, (and) in caves of the earth and the rocks. Therefore cavemen were simply outcasts and vagabounds  not our primitive ancestors as evolutionists speculate.

75.
Environmental devastation of the planet foreseen (Revelation 11:18). Though evolution imagines that things should be getting better, the Bible foresaw what is really occurring today: pollution, destruction and corrupt dominion.

Visit:
Creation and the Environment (ICR)
The Bible, Creation, and Ecology (ICR)

76.
The seed of a plant contains its life (Genesis 1:11; 29). As stated in the Book of Genesis, we now recognize that inside the humble seed is life itself. Within the seed is a tiny factory of amazing complexity. No scientist can build a synthetic seed and no seed is simple!

77.
A seed must die to produce new life (1 Corinthians 15:36-38). Jesus said, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain. (John 12:24). In this verse is remarkable confirmation of two of the fundamental concepts in biology: 1) Cells arise only from existing cells. 2) A grain must die to produce more grain. The fallen seed is surrounded by supporting cells from the old body. These supporting cells give their lives to provide nourishment to the inner kernel. Once planted, this inner kernel germinates resulting in much grain.

78.
The order of creation agrees with true science (Genesis 1). Plants require sunlight, water, and minerals in order to survive. In the first chapter of Genesis we read that God created light first (v.3), then water (v. 6), then soil (v. 9), and then He created plant life (v. 11).

Visit:
What is the order of events in the biblical Creation? (CristianAnswers.net)

79.
God created lights in the heavens for signs and seasons, and for days and years (Genesis 1:14-16). We now know that a year is the time required for the earth to travel once around the sun. The seasons are caused by the changing position of the earth in relation to the sun. The moons phases follow one another in clock-like precision  constituting the lunar calendar Evolution teaches that the cosmos evolved by random chance, yet the Bible agrees with the observable evidence.

80.
The Bible speaks of heaven and the highest heavens (Deuteronomy 10:14). Long before the Hubble Space Telescope, Scripture spoke of the heaven of heavens and the third heaven (1 Kings 8:27; 2 Corinthians 12:2). We now know that the heavens consist of our immediate atmosphere and the vast reaches of outer space  as well as Gods wonderful abode.

81.
Olive oil and wine useful on wounds (Luke 10:34). Jesus told of a Samaritan man, who when he came upon a wounded traveler, he bandaged him  pouring upon his wounds olive oil and wine. Today we know that wine contains ethyl alcohol and traces of methyl alcohol. Both are good disinfectants. Olive oil is also a good disinfectant, as well as a skin moisturizer, protector, and soothing lotion. This is common knowledge to us today. However, did you know that during the Middle Ages and right up till the early 20th century, millions died because they did not know to treat and protect open wounds?

82.
Man is fearfully and wonderfully made (Psalm 139:14). We are only beginning to probe the complexity of the DNA molecule, the eye, the brain, and all the intricate components of life. No human invention compares to the marvelous wonders of Gods creation.

Visit:
Mankind- The Pinnacle of God's Creation (ICR)

83.
Beauty understood (Genesis 1:31; 2:9; Job 40:10; Ecclesiastes 3:11; Matthew 6:28-30). Beauty surrounds us: radiant sunsets, majestic mountains, brightly colored flowers, glowing gems, soothing foliage, brilliantly adorned birds, etc. Beauty is a mystery to the evolutionist. However, Scripture reveals that God creates beautiful things for our benefit and His glory.

Visit:
Beauty (oldpaths.com)

84.
Strong and weak nuclear force explained (Colossians 1:17; Hebrews 1:3). Physicists do not understand what binds the atoms nucleus together. Yet, the Bible states that all things consist  or are held together by the Creator  Jesus Christ.

85.
Atomic fission anticipated (2 Peter 3:10-12). Scripture states that the elements will melt with fervent heat when the earth and the heavens are dissolved by fire. Today we understand that if the elements of the atom are loosed, there would be an enormous release of heat and energy (radiation).

86.
The Pleiades and Orion star clusters described (Job 38:31). The Pleiades star cluster is gravitationally bound, while the Orion star cluster is loose and disintegrating because the gravity of the cluster is not enough to bind the group together. 4,000 years ago God asked Job, "Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades, or loose the belt of Orion?" Yet, it is only recently that we realized that the Pleiades is gravitationally bound, but Orion's stars are flying apart.

87.
Safe drinking water (Leviticus 11:33-36). God forbade drinking from vessels or stagnant water that had been contaminated by coming into contact with a dead animal. It is only in the last 100 years that medical science has learned that contaminated water can cause typhoid and cholera.

Visit:
The First Book Of Public Hygiene (Answers In Genesis)
Modern medicine? (Answers In Genesis)

88.
Pest control (Leviticus 25:1-24). Farmers are plagued today with insects. Yet God gave a sure-fire remedy to control pests centuries ago. Moses commanded Israel to set aside one year in seven when no crops were raised. Insects winter in the stalks of last years harvest, hatch in the spring, and are perpetuated by laying eggs in the new crop. If the crop is denied one year in seven, the pests have nothing to subsist upon, and are thereby controlled.

89.
Soil conservation (Leviticus 23:22). Not only was the land to lay fallow every seventh year, but God also instructed farmers to leave the gleanings when reaping their fields, and not to reap the corners (sides) of their fields. This served several purposes: 1) Vital soil minerals would be maintained. 2) The hedge row would limit wind erosion. 3) The poor could eat the gleanings. Today, approximately four billion metric tons of soil are lost from U.S. crop lands each year. Much of this soil depletion could be avoided if Gods commands were followed.

90.
Animal instincts understood (Job 39; Proverbs 30:24-28; Jeremiah 8:7). A newly hatched spider weaves an intricate web without being taught. A recently emerged butterfly somehow knows to navigate a 2,500-mile migration route without a guide. God explains that He has endowed each creature with specific knowledge. Scripture, not evolution, explains animal instincts.

Visit:
Instinct, Wise Behavior, Unlearned Knowledge And Abilities (oldpaths.com)

91.
Animals do not have a conscience (Psalm 32:9). A parrot can be taught to swear and blaspheme, yet never feel conviction. Many animals steal, but they do not experience guilt. If man evolved from animals, where did our conscience come from? The Bible explains that man alone was created as a moral being in Gods image.

92.
Pseudo-science anticipated (1 Timothy 6:20). The theory of evolution contradicts the observable evidence. The Bible warned us in advance that there would be those who would profess: profane and idle babblings and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge (science). True science agrees with the Creators Word.

93.
Science confirms the Bible (Colossians 2:3). These insights place the Bible far above every manmade theory and all other so-called inspired books. In contrast, the Koran states that the sun sets in a muddy pond (Surah 18:86). The Hadith contains many myths. The Book of Mormon declares that Native Americans descended from Jews  which has been disproven by DNA research. The Eastern writings also contradict true science.

Visit:
DNA Evidence And The Book Of Mormon (CristianAnswers.net)

94.
Human conscience understood (Romans 2:14-15). The Bible reveals that God has impressed His moral law onto every human heart. Con means with and science means knowledge. We know it is wrong to murder, lie, steal, etc. Only the Bible explains that each human has a God-given knowledge of right and wrong.

95.
Love explained (Matthew 22:37-40; 1 John 4:7-12). Evolution cannot explain love. Yet, Gods Word reveals that the very purpose of our existence is to know and love God and our fellow man. God is love, and we were created in His image to reflect His love.

Visit:
Is Man a "Higher" Animal? (ICR)

96.
The real you is spirit (Numbers 16:22; Zechariah 12:1). Personality is non-physical. For example, after a heart transplant the recipient does not receive the donors character. An amputee is not half the person he was before loosing his limbs. Our eternal nature is spirit, heart, soul, mind. The Bible tells us that man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart (1 Samuel 16:7).

97.
The cause of suffering revealed (Genesis 3; Isaiah 24:5-6). The earth is subject to misery, which appears at odds with our wonderfully designed universe. However, the Bible, not evolution, explains the origin of suffering. When mankind rebelled against God, the curse resulted  introducing affliction, pain and death into the world.

98.
Death explained (Romans 6:23). All eventually die. The Bible alone explains why we die  The soul who sins shall die (Ezekiel 18:20). Sin is transgression of Gods Law. To see if you will die, please review Gods Ten Commandments (Exodus 20). Have you ever lied? (White lies and fibs count.) Ever stolen? (Cheating on a test or taxes is stealing.) Jesus said that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart (Matthew 5:28). Have you ever looked with lust? Then youre an adulterer at heart. Have you ever hated someone or called someone a fool? If so, the Bible says you are guilty of murder (Matthew 5:21-22; 1 John 3:15). Have you ever used your Creators name (Lord, God, Jesus, or Christ) in vain? This is called blasphemy  and God hates it. If you have broken these commandments at any time, then by your own admission, you are a blasphemer, a murderer, an adulterer, a thief, and a liar at heart. And we have only looked at five of the Ten Commandments. This is why we die.

99.
Justice understood (Acts 17:30-31). Our God-given conscience reveals that all sin will be judged. Down deep we know that He who created the eyes sees every secret sin (Romans 2:16). He who formed our mind remembers our past offense as if it just occurred. God has declared that the penalty for sin is death. Physical death comes first, then the second death  which is eternal separation from God in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8). God cannot lie. Every sin will be judged. His justice demands it. But God is also rich in mercy to all who call upon His name. He has made a way for justice to be served and mercy to be shown.

100.
Eternal life revealed (John 3:16). Scientists search in vain for the cure for aging and death. Yet, the good news is that God, who is the source of all life, has made a way to freely forgive us so that we may live forever with Him in heaven. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8). For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16). God desires a loving, eternal relationship with each person  free from sin, fear, and pain. Therefore, He sent His Son to die as our substitute on the cross. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 6:23). Jesus never sinned, therefore He alone qualified to pay the penalty for our sins on the cross. He died in our place. He then rose from the grave defeating death. All who turn from their sins and trust Him will be saved. To repent and place your trust in Jesus Christ, make Psalm 51 your prayer. Then read your Bible daily, obeying what you read. God will never let you down.

101.
The solution to suffering (Revelation 21). Neither evolution nor religion offers a solution to suffering. But God offers heaven as a gift to all who trust in His Son. In heaven, God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away (Revelation 21:4).

The Bible is inspired by the Creator. Therefore it is no surprise that lifes ultimate questions are answered within its pages. The Bible reveals the purpose of our existence. Scripture alone explains where our conscience came from. And no other source explains the root cause of death. Seeing that all die, wouldnt it be wise to search for the remedy in the only book that proves it was inspired by God? The Bible offers the only remedy for sin, suffering, and death. Gods Word presents the only perfect, sinless Savior  one who died for our sins and rose from the dead. Jesus is the Creator (John 1; Colossians 1). He said I and My Father are one (John 10:30). He said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me (John 14:6). And He promises His followers: I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish (John 10:28). Your eternal destiny will be determined by your choice. There is only one provision for sin. Jesus died in your place. Only by faith in Christs finished work will you be saved. This is Gods free gift offered to all. Please do not let pride, religion, opinions, or love for sin separate you from God. No sin is worth an eternity in hell. Please heed Jesus words  Repent, and believe in the gospel (Mark 1:15). If you do, you will live in heaven with our awesome Creator forever!


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> My words are the Truth - as a Christian should speak. Perhaps the love of God would soften your heart. Give God a try!
> 
> To see my words are true - check the prior posts of each of the Liberals to read their words.


I am one of those liberals and I don't see where my words are evil. I do not believe the bible is revealed truth because I do not believe there is any kind of god to reveal that truth. I think the bible has some interesting stories. I don't think I have a hard heart. I think I am a good person and don't need the threat of hell to make me understand that being kind to others is a good way to live.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Wow, since you cannot touch the nail wounds in the palms and feet of Jesus, I guess you shouldn't be calling yourself a Catholic nor believe in God, Jesus or even discuss the ark.
> 
> After all, if the scientific evidence was there ...


Exactly my point. The scientific evidence that Jesus even existed hasn't been found and never will be. No matter. His conception, birth, life, and death were miraculous, so no such proof is necessary.


----------



## Pixiedust (Aug 30, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> I am one of those liberals and I don't see where my words are evil. I do not believe the bible is revealed truth because I do not believe there is any kind of god to reveal that truth. I think the bible has some interesting stories. I don't think I have a hard heart. I think I am a good person and don't need the threat of hell to make me understand that being kind to others is a good way to live.


Words like KPG's give all Christians a bad name. I resent that. I do not behave like that nor would I ever let my 5 and 7 year old children.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Pixiedust said:


> I see why the people are upset in here. I don't have to give God a try, he is a huge part of my life. But you should not be speaking to other people like you do and call yourself Christian.
> Your idea of the Truth is quite twisted. Jesus wouldn't want for you to be belittling and calling names at anyone who does not share your point of view. You are very, very judgemental.
> Maybe you should look at softening your own heart, if you have one.


Have you read the posts of the Liberals who address me? Read them and then we'll talk. I do not need nor appreciate you telling me about my character BTW. I do not call people names, I defend myself and my character. I speak the truth, name calling isn't required to speak to others with whom I disagree. However, many of the Liberals on these threads are bullies and threaten and defame anyone with whom they disagree. They are incorrigible.

Should I consider you to be one of them?


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## Pixiedust (Aug 30, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Wow, since you cannot touch the nail wounds in the palms and feet of Jesus, I guess you shouldn't be calling yourself a Catholic nor believe in God, Jesus or even discuss the ark.
> 
> After all, if the scientific evidence was there ...


What? I thought anyone could post here. Are you the thread monitor? If everyone had the same tenets, we would be a very boring world. Can you touch the wounds of Christ? If you can then I would believe that you are insane. If you can't, in your own words, then yu can't call yourself a Christian.
May God bless you. You need it badly!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> There is no proof for evolution!


Of course there is--the proof can be found in your own body. Wisdom teeth, appendixes, tailbones, and the webbing between our fingers are things (or vestiges of things) that we've evolved out of a need for.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Exactly my point. The scientific evidence that Jesus even existed hasn't been found and never will be. No matter. His conception, birth, life, and death were miraculous, so no such proof is necessary.


You are misinformed. You have also confused yourself. Those who believe by faith do not seek scientific proof. If proof exists than nothing was miraculous was it.

There is scientific proof that Jesus existed, you simply don't believe it.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

Wow! All the verbiage that supposedly supports the "science of the bible" doesn't show any scientific proof at all. It is gibberish which will make your eyes cross if you try to read it. Most of what you have posted, CB, does not prove a thing! Evolution is long past needing to be proved. It is accepted fact in the scientific community.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> There is Historical evidence. Is there Scientific evidence that George Washington lived?


Yes. His body is buried at Mount Vernon and could be exhumed, as Lincoln's was in 1901.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Pixiedust said:


> Words like KPG's give all Christians a bad name. I resent that. I do not behave like that nor would I ever let my 5 and 7 year old children.


Shame on you who throws stones and is judge and juror. You do not know me and my words are the truth. No one, including me, is responsible for another group of Christians. I hope you raise your children in the way they should go so they do not depart from it.

You cannot even understand my post to Susan. Your words are ridiculous, so I shall not respond to you again. Please do not address me again as I do not suffer fools. (not calling you a name - speaking the truth once again). You chose to judge and insult me yet again. God will judge me accordingly not you; he resents that.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> I am one of those liberals and I don't see where my words are evil. I do not believe the bible is revealed truth because I do not believe there is any kind of god to reveal that truth. I think the bible has some interesting stories. I don't think I have a hard heart. I think I am a good person and don't need the threat of hell to make me understand that being kind to others is a good way to live.


Then perhaps they are not. I wasn't specifically thinking of you.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> There is Historical evidence. Is there Scientific evidence that George Washington lived?


Please don't confuse science with history. There is a big difference. By the same token, back in the time of Jesus, many of the historians who wrote about the time were Romans, who were interested in presenting their own point of view. Most of the people who wrote about Jesus didn't even live when he did.

Writing history is very different from scientific method.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> What you mean it is an unproven theory that is accepted as fact.


It is accepted fact because the evidence supports it. That is the definition of scientific fact.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You are misinformed. You have also confused yourself. Those who believe by faith do not seek scientific proof.


Then there must be quite a lack of faith among those who call themselves Christians--they're the ones who spend their time trying to show that Noah's ark was big enough to hold all those animals.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> What you mean it is an unproven theory that is accepted as fact.


And you still haven't told me what you would consider as proof.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Have you read the posts of the Liberals who address me? Read them and then we'll talk. I do not need nor appreciate you telling me about my character BTW. I do not call people names, I defend myself and my character. I speak the truth, name calling isn't required to speak to others with whom I disagree. However, many of the Liberals on these threads are bullies and threaten and defame anyone with whom they disagree. They are incorrigible.
> 
> Should I consider you to be one of them?


Good try, Cherf, but I think the person who challenged you can see right through you. You are the bully here. Nobody else. 
It's getting old hearing "I speak the truth," when 99% of the time you are lying through your teeth. Other people see you for what you are and have called you on it.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Then perhaps they are not. I wasn't specifically thinking of you.


Squirming , are you Cheryl?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Then there must be quite a lack of faith among those who call themselves Christians--they're the ones who spend their time trying to show that Noah's ark was big enough to hold all those animals.


I can speak only for myself. I have not spent one second trying to show the size of Noah's ark, and I am a Christian. I'm aware of the ark's size simply by reading about it in the Bible.

Lack of faith is a trait of non-believers.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Here is one of them: If anyone would know about Jesus, he would.
> Titus Flavius Josephus (37  c. 100),[1] also called Joseph ben Matityahu (Biblical Hebrew: יוסף בן מתתיהו, Yosef ben Matityahu),[2] was a first-century Romano-Jewish scholar, historian and hagiographer, who was born in Jerusalemthen part of Roman Judeato a father of priestly descent and a mother who claimed royal ancestry.


And?


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Great example of political action, thanks.



Country Bumpkins said:


> Here is another site pardoquilts. 01 Scientific Facts & Foreknowledge
> 
> Psalm 19:1-3  The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork. Day unto day utters speech, and night unto night reveals knowledge. There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard.
> 
> ...


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> But we are still people. We were never apes.


No--but the fact that human and chimps share 98.8% of their DNA shows that they evolved from a common ancestor.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Good theory, no proof


It shows that we were made by the same awesome creator and proven that, in fact, it is not as evolution suggests.

Which one scientist has created a living cell or breathed life into a cell they replicated?


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Wow, since you cannot touch the nail wounds in the palms and feet of Jesus, I guess you shouldn't be calling yourself a Catholic nor believe in God, Jesus or even discuss the ark.
> 
> After all, if the scientific evidence was there ...


knitpresentgifts.
I keep wondering what sort of religious group you belong to. Your Christianity is so out of touch with mainstream Christianity. Your flaunting is despicable.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> It shows that we were made by the same awesome creator and proven that in fact it is not as suggested.


KPG
the way you represent your religion it cannot be the Creator the Holy Bible speaks about.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Good theory, no proof


joeysomma
evolution is which brought us here and not some Guy you have a crush on.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Good theory, no proof


*sigh* I simply don't understand why some folks are so militantly anti-evolution. The Catholic church doesn't have a problem with it, nor with viewing certain passages of the Old Testament as symbolic rather than literal. Of course not everyone looks at the Pope with a favorable eye, but do you think such a highly-educated man could be considered either a dupe or a dope?


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> It shows that we were made by the same awesome creator and proven that, in fact, it is not as evolution suggests.
> 
> Which one scientist has created a living cell or breathed life into a cell they replicated?


KPG
playing stupid or what?


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Where is the proof that one organism changed to another one?
> 
> Yes, some organisms adapted to shorter legs or something similar but that is "adaptive evolution" There is proof of this. Through selective breeding of dogs you can have a different type of dog. i.e. the cockapo (spelling??) but it is still a dog.
> 
> There is survival of the species that will adapt to its surroundings. Since most squirrels are brown to blend in the vegetation, an albino squirrel will not live long in the wild. They may also be sterile.


That is evolution! Adapting to survive is evolution.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> KPG
> playing stupid or what?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: 
She doesn'y have to play, Huck. She ran off with her tail between her legs. Hopefully she'll stay away. I am so tired of her stalking us.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> What you mean it is an unproven theory that is accepted as fact.


joeysomma
you don't need to repeat it again and again, we know that you folks do not believe in Science. Why are you going to the Doctor I wonder. His/her treatment is based on scientific research. Prayer should be your medicine and nothing else or?


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I told you it was a theory, I have no proof. You said there was evidence. What is your evidence? Websites???


My evidence comes for years of actual scientific research, for which there is a huge body of written evidence. Information that comes from sources that are backed by religious groups trying to promote fundamentalist points of view are hardly respected sources in the actual scientific community.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

outrageus political 

turned into

outrageous religious. 

Some dimwits always have to flaunt their poor interpretations of the Good Book. 

Well in business you advertise as much and where-ever possible and they are doing it splendidly. After all Religion is the biggest business around the Globe and here the exposure - however crazy - is free.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> *sigh* I simply don't understand why some folks are so militantly anti-evolution. The Catholic church doesn't have a problem with it, nor with viewing certain passages of the Old Testament as symbolic rather than literal. Of course not everyone looks at the Pope with a favorable eye, but do you think such a highly-educated man could be considered either a dupe or a dope?


Susan most all religions accept evolution and have for a long time. Now there are the creationists who are very small in number but have very big voices and I think they believe he who shouts the loudest wins. They will die out because they are totally inflexible and can never adapt. The question of evolution vs. adaptation isn't even important. They will soon be gone either way. You can't win, joey. Sorry.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> My evidence comes for years of actual scientific research, for which there is a huge body of written evidence. Information that comes from sources that are backed by religious groups trying to promote fundamentalist points of view are hardly respected sources in the actual scientific community.


pardoquilts
B R A V O. Always a pleasure to meet a well functioning brain. Huck


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter
Your Avatar is wonderful. I need to learn more about him.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'd like to see PeaceGoddess ask Jelun2 how the lyrics to a song she posted is related to the original topic of this thread. Just saying ...
> 
> Thank you for your excellent posts Rachel. I cannot fathom how the Liberals on these threads exist on nothing but insulting and berating others. Their hearts are hardened with evil and hate making them incapable of intelligent and polite discussion.


Sorry Cheryl, you don't control the agenda here. How's your business doing?


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Wonderful we can agree on something.
> 
> If a squirrel adapts, it is still a squirrel.
> 
> ...


No, millions of years ago a few fish developed the ability to breathe air, as well as having gills. Then they began to climb out on land and turned into land based, air breathing reptiles. After another few million years what had been gills began to develop into wings and they evolved into birds. It isn't a question of presto-chango, you are changed from a fish to a reptile. It was evolution over millions of years.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Wonderful we can agree on something.
> 
> If a squirrel adapts, it is still a squirrel.
> 
> ...


And wolves were intorduced to human society and eventually became dogs. There is absolutely no doubt that modern dogs are the direct descendants of wolves, and in fact the two can still breed and produce fertile offspring. But a dog is a dog and a wolf a wolf--two different animals thanks to evolution.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> While I consider the bible to be an history book of sorts, I tend to consider those who believe it to be the truth and the way as sheep. If you believe in God, then you should also believe in free will and that free will. Free will to question that which is written. After all, the bible was written by many men. Hey, maybe that's the problem - it should have been written by women!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> *sigh* I simply don't understand why some folks are so militantly anti-evolution. The Catholic church doesn't have a problem with it, nor with viewing certain passages of the Old Testament as symbolic rather than literal. Of course not everyone looks at the Pope with a favorable eye, but do you think such a highly-educated man could be considered either a dupe or a dope?


susanmos2000
oh dear, you are getting much too complicated for these simple folks. They believe as they do because they are who they are and became easy targets for indoctrination. They now are in permanent incarceration.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> You have no idea of what science I have studied. Science is proof there is the God of the Bible and everything in it is literally true. If it was not, We would not have the scientific certainty of DNA or any of the other scientific *laws* that are used every day. Many of the greatest Scientists believed that science agreed with the Bible.


joeysomma
easy to figure out your science education - lack thereof.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> You have no idea of what science I have studied. Science is proof there is the God of the Bible and everything in it is literally true. If it was not, We would not have the scientific certainty of DNA or any of the other scientific *laws* that are used every day. Many of the greatest Scientists believed that science agreed with the Bible.


You can argue this point until the cows come home but you have zero proof. It is just what you want to believe and nothing more. 
Prove it joey, you can't because your beliefs have no basis in any facts.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Susan most all religions accept evolution and have for a long time. Now there are the creationists who are very small in number but have very big voices and I think they believe he who shouts the loudest wins. They will die out because they are totally inflexible and can never adapt. The question of evolution vs. adaptation isn't even important.


No--but the fact that for some it's still a no-go drives me crazy! It's such a narrow view, so limiting--I feel like I'm in 17th century Salem trying to disprove spectral evidence before Cotton Mather.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Just think how much free education some folks get from us who teach facts while others insist on fiction from some book that has been translated hundreds of times by men who had a vivid imagination.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> And wolves were intorduced to human society and eventually became dogs. There is absolutely no doubt that modern dogs are the direct descendants of wolves, and in fact the two can still breed and produce fertile offspring. But a dog is a dog and a wolf a wolf--two different animals thanks to evolution.


So sad they have this need to try to prove a belief that is based on what? Nothing. Darwin got it right and this creationism is just a new "creation" of the religious right. Evolution makes perfect sense and what an amazing "creator" made us be able to evolve so we could survive along with so many other species as you pointed out susan even to our dear friends the cats and dogs. Evolution is amazing!


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> What are your facts that I am wrong?


joeysomma
going in circles, aren't we. You can't prove your points because there is no basis for it. And what does not exist, just does not exist. Get it? Sure hope so.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> No Evolution. if they breed it is a mixed breed.


No, wolf-dog crosses are considered hybrids and illegal in 40 states.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

double post


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> So sad they have this need to try to prove a belief that is based on what? Nothing. Darwin got it right and this creationism is just a new "creation" of the religious right. Evolution makes perfect sense and what an amazing "creator" made us be able to evolve so we could survive along with so many other species as you pointed out susan even to our dear friends the cats and dogs. Evolution is amazing!


Cheeky Blighter
I am continuously amazed how brainwashed some people are. They are totally void of reality.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> So sad they have this need to try to prove a belief that is based on what? Nothing. Darwin got it right and this creationism is just a new "creation" of the religious right. Evolution makes perfect sense and what an amazing "creator" made us be able to evolve so we could survive along with so many other species as you pointed out susan even to our dear friends the cats and dogs. Evolution is amazing!


It truly is--nothing to shy away from or fear as much as the fundamentalists seem to.

OK, Cheeky, I'm going to leave joey in your and Huck's capable hands--I've talked myself blue in the face here and not made a single dent. I've got to get off this thread before my head explodes.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> And wolves were intorduced to human society and eventually became dogs. There is absolutely no doubt that modern dogs are the direct descendants of wolves, and in fact the two can still breed and produce fertile offspring. But a dog is a dog and a wolf a wolf--two different animals thanks to evolution.


That sounds like double talk.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> You have no idea of what science I have studied. Science is proof there is the God of the Bible and everything in it is literally true. If it was not, We would not have the scientific certainty of DNA or any of the other scientific *laws* that are used every day. Many of the greatest Scientists believed that science agreed with the Bible.


Well, no, not really. All the scientists I know, and I know many, am married to one, don't believe that at all! If you believe in the certainty of DNA, how can you not understand the point that because we share 98.8 percent of our DNA with apes, we must be related to them? Science certainly doesn't believe that the earth has only existed for 6000 years!


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## ummirain (Feb 1, 2013)

I protested the Viet Nam war, marched for Civil Rights, knit sweaters for the children in Afghanistan, have been arrested for protesting the killing of a victim of domeatic violence by her husband after sge had attempted to enter a women's shelter, arreated for protesting tge deployment of nuclear weapons, the right to reproductive freedom. I am 70 now and if I had to do it over I Would Do More, and still have time to knit. "Never soubt that a small and dedicated gruop of people can change the world. Indeed, it is tge onky thing that wver has!" Marfaret Meade. Aorry you are so unhappily angry.....this is a non-knitting chat page. Have a peaceful sleep.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Anti-science Religious Right leaders in Texas are once again trying to get creationism placed in the states science textbooks and undermine the teaching of evolution.
The Texas State Board of Education needs to be know that science belongs in science textbooks, not religion.
Theres a hearing of the State Board of Education on TUESDAY 9/17/13 in Austin, and state officials know the whole country is watching.
Because of the way Texas chooses its textbooks and the massive size of the states market, what Texas requires in its textbooks has national implications, because the textbook publishers sell the same textbooks nationwide.
Not only have evolution deniers been placed on the official review teams for biology textbooks they are:
	Insisting that "creation science based on Biblical principles should be incorporated into every biology book that is up for adoption."
	Complaining that a textbook "neglects to tell students that no transitional fossils have been discovered."
	And pushing wildly inaccurate claims that deny the science of climate change. PFAW.org

http://humanorigins.si.edu/ - 67k Smithsonian Institution

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence - 35k Smithsonian Institution

Cheeky Blighter


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> It truly is--nothing to shy away from or fear as much as the fundamentalists seem to.
> 
> OK, Cheeky, I'm going to leave joey in your and Huck's capable hands--I've talked myself blue in the face here and not made a single dent. I've got to get off this thread before my head explodes.


I hear you. Have a peaceful evening. ;-)


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> The secular historians that lived in Bible times agree with the history in the Bible.
> As far as it has been translated by man. It is accurate in its original language. Every translation is not 100% accurate. that is why you need to read more than one translation and then go to writings of Biblical scholars and read what they have written about their understanding of their studies of the Bible.


The people who lived in bible times believed that the world was flat, like a pancake. They believed that the sun revolved around the earth. They believed that many diseases and crop failures were caused by a women casting the evil eye on them. In fact these beliefs were held fast until they were proven incorrect only a few hundred years ago. Maybe there is a lesson here. The pet ideas held by some people, I will not call them theories as that word is misused, will be further exposed as false. Evolution is fact. No amount of mumbo Jumbo will twist, distort or ridicule the evidence found in fossils. Some minor disagreements are there regarding time lines but all agree with the foundation principles.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Cheeky Blighter
> I am continuously amazed how brainwashed some people are. They are totally void of reality.


Because these ideas are comfortable, like a pair of old slippers. These people do not know how to question, they have been taught to just accept what their elders have taught them.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> That sounds like double talk.


Only to the uneducated and those who do not want to know the truth. Sorry Country all the faith in the world isn't going to change that. The Creator of us all gave all his creatures including us the ability to evolve so we could survive and Darwin got it right and all the new scientific evidence only continues to support that. Evolution is creation. It is very simple. Creationism is only a nice story you want to believe. Only a tiny percent of the world's population believe as you do. The vast majority of Christians believe it. Only the new Tea Party GOP believe as you do. Sorry, country.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

ummirain said:


> I protested the Viet Nam war, marched for Civil Rights, knit sweaters for the children in Afghanistan, have been arrested for protesting the killing of a victim of domeatic violence by her husband after sge had attempted to enter a women's shelter, arreated for protesting tge deployment of nuclear weapons, the right to reproductive freedom. I am 70 now and if I had to do it over I Would Do More, and still have time to knit. "Never soubt that a small and dedicated gruop of people can change the world. Indeed, it is tge onky thing that wver has!" Marfaret Meade. Aorry you are so unhappily angry.....this is a non-knitting chat page. Have a peaceful sleep.


You have done so much for your fellow man. I think you deserve a thank you. We could all take a leaf out of your book. Thank you for being courageous and standing up for others.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Only to the uneducated and those who do not want to know the truth. Sorry Country all the faith in the world isn't going to change that. The Creator of us all gave all his creatures including us the ability to evolve so we could survive and Darwin got it right and all the new scientific evidence only continues to support that. Evolution is creation. It is very simple. Creationism is only a nice story you want to believe. Only a tiny percent of the world's population believe as you do. The vast majority of Christians believe it. Only the new Tea Party GOP believe as you do. Sorry, country.


Why are you sorry? I don't need your approval to believe in God Almighty. I agree it is very simple. All you have to have is a child like faith to receive the free gift of salvation. Why are you so opposed to a free gift that would give you eternal life in Heaven with God the Father and His Son Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit. You can be forgiven and live with them forever with out pain or tears. What about that scares you? Someone loves you so much that he offered up His only Son to save you from going to hell. All you have to do is ask him to forgive you of you sins. Just like I did. I was in your place before. I have never regretting asking Jesus in my heart. Would be so bad to have a loving Father, a Heavenly father? He loves you so much that if you were the only person. He would still have gave Jesus as sacrifice for you sins. He loves you and want you to come to Him and live with him forever and ever.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Scientific research that was funded at the beginning by taxpayer dollars. Two strikes...



Huckleberry said:


> joeysomma
> you don't need to repeat it again and again, we know that you folks do not believe in Science. Why are you going to the Doctor I wonder. His/her treatment is based on scientific research. Prayer should be your medicine and nothing else or?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

A wonderful list of accomplishments, thank you for your service.



ummirain said:


> I protested the Viet Nam war, marched for Civil Rights, knit sweaters for the children in Afghanistan, have been arrested for protesting the killing of a victim of domeatic violence by her husband after sge had attempted to enter a women's shelter, arreated for protesting tge deployment of nuclear weapons, the right to reproductive freedom. I am 70 now and if I had to do it over I Would Do More, and still have time to knit. "Never soubt that a small and dedicated gruop of people can change the world. Indeed, it is tge onky thing that wver has!" Marfaret Meade. Aorry you are so unhappily angry.....this is a non-knitting chat page. Have a peaceful sleep.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Main article: Marxism and religion
The quotation, in context, reads as follows (emphasis added):
The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man  state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point dhonneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.
Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself. [1]


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

buddhist critique of christianity


It is true that Christianity has an explanation about how everything began. But is this explanation correct? Let us examine it. The Bible says that God created everything in six days and on the seventh day he rested. This quaint story is nothing more than a myth and is no more true than the Hindu myth that the gods created everything by churning a sea of milk, or the classical belief that the universe hatched out of a cosmic egg.
Some parts of the creation myth are plainly absurd. For example it is said that on the first day God created light and darkness but on the fourth day he created the sun (Gen 1:15-16). How can there be day and night without the sun? The creation myth also contradicts modern science which has proven how the universe began and how life evolved. There are no departments of astronomy or biology in any of the world's universities which teach the creation myth for the simple reason that it is not based on fact. So while it is true that Christianity has an explanation for how everything began (as do most religions) that explanation is just a myth.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Why are you sorry? I don't need your approval to believe in God Almighty. I agree it is very simple. All you have to have is a child like faith to receive the free gift of salvation. Why are you so opposed to a free gift that would give you eternal life in Heaven with God the Father and His Son Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit. You can be forgiven and live with them forever with out pain or tears. What about that scares you? Someone loves you so much that he offered up His only Son to save you from going to hell. All you have to do is ask him to forgive you of you sins. Just like I did. I was in your place before. I have never regretting asking Jesus in my heart. Would be so bad to have a loving Father, a Heavenly father? He loves you so much that if you were the only person. He would still have gave Jesus as sacrifice for you sins. He loves you and want you to come to Him and live with him forever and ever.


If that's what you want to believe, go ahead. However, I do not see how that "loving" person allows the kind of horrors that are visited upon children, the poor, the innocent which we see and read about every day. I don't see how that works. I believe that we humans are responsible for our actions, that we are responsible for doing what we can to make the world a better place. We got ourselves into whatever messes are out there, and we are responsible for making them better. We do it because it is the least harmful way to live with our fellow human beings and the earth and creatures on it. I do not need a god, or bible or any other "father" to figure this out. I'm quite capable of handling this myself. And, when we die, that's it! What we leave behind, what is our afterlife, are the good deeds, kind children and other small contributions we have been able to make.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> If that's what you want to believe, go ahead. However, I do not see how that "loving" person allows the kind of horrors that are visited upon children, the poor, the innocent which we see and read about every day. I don't see how that works. I believe that we humans are responsible for our actions, that we are responsible for doing what we can to make the world a better place. We got ourselves into whatever messes are out there, and we are responsible for making them better. We do it because it is the least harmful way to live with our fellow human beings and the earth and creatures on it. I do not need a god, or bible or any other "father" to figure this out. I'm quite capable of handling this myself. And, when we die, that's it! What we leave behind, what is our afterlife, are the good deeds, kind children and other small contributions we have been able to make.


That is your free will to chose where you want . We are not God's puppets . You have the choice to reject Him or accept Him. There is only God or the devil. I am sorry for your sake that you chose the devil. I pray the Holy Spirit will change your mind before you die so you won't spend eternity in hell. I know nothing I have to say will change your mind . I just have peace and love and like to share it will everyone I meet. Sorry if I have offended you. It is not my mission.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> That sounds like double talk.


Country Bumpkin
I am glad that you found your Peace and now leave us in Peace. You should know by now that many of us are not into crazy ideas that break every unbreakable natural law.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> That is your free will to chose where you want . We are not God's puppets . You have the choice to reject Him or accept Him. There is only God or the devil. I am sorry for your sake that you chose the devil. I pray the Holy Spirit will change your mind before you die so you won't spend eternity in hell. I know nothing I have to say will change your mind . I just have peace and love and like to share it will everyone I meet. Sorry if I have offended you. It is not my mission.


Country Bumpkin
You may want to accept the fact that ALL OF US wind up in the same place. That can be proven. Your stories can not. Perhaps you can give me a Roadmap to Heaven and Hell, KPG cannot find it. Have a pleasant day and stop worrying about us. We are enjoying our real World. Imaginary friends we left behind long ago.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> That is your free will to chose where you want . We are not God's puppets . You have the choice to reject Him or accept Him. There is only God or the devil. I am sorry for your sake that you chose the devil. I pray the Holy Spirit will change your mind before you die so you won't spend eternity in hell. I know nothing I have to say will change your mind . I just have peace and love and like to share it will everyone I meet. Sorry if I have offended you. It is not my mission.


You didn't offend me. Except when you suggest that I have chosen the devil! I think I live a life that most people would think is well intended and helpful to as many people as I can. I do not, as I said, believe there is any heaven or hell, beyond what we create in our own life. But, believing in god is not, in my opinion, the opposite of consorting with the devil (whom I also don't believe in), or living an evil life.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> If that's what you want to believe, go ahead. However, I do not see how that "loving" person allows the kind of horrors that are visited upon children, the poor, the innocent which we see and read about every day. I don't see how that works. I believe that we humans are responsible for our actions, that we are responsible for doing what we can to make the world a better place. We got ourselves into whatever messes are out there, and we are responsible for making them better. We do it because it is the least harmful way to live with our fellow human beings and the earth and creatures on it. I do not need a god, or bible or any other "father" to figure this out. I'm quite capable of handling this myself. And, when we die, that's it! What we leave behind, what is our afterlife, are the good deeds, kind children and other small contributions we have been able to make.


pardoquilts
Thank you for speaking so eloquently.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Country Bumpkin
> You may want to accept the fact that ALL OF US wind up in the same place. That can be proven. Your stories can not. Perhaps you can give me a Roadmap to Heaven and Hell, KPG cannot find it. Have a pleasant day and stop worrying about us. We are enjoying our real World. Imaginary friends we left behind long ago.


 Salvation is the road map to heaven.Sin is the road map to hell. I do worry about you . Don't want anyone going to hell not even the ones I disagree with. You have made the choice but you still have time to change your mind.XX


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Salvation is the road map to heaven.Sin is the road map to hell. I do worry about you . Don't want anyone going to hell not even the ones I disagree with. You have made the choice but you still have time to change your mind.XX


Can't go somewhere that doesn't exist.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> buddhist critique of christianity
> 
> It is true that Christianity has an explanation about how everything began. But is this explanation correct? Let us examine it. The Bible says that God created everything in six days and on the seventh day he rested. This quaint story is nothing more than a myth and is no more true than the Hindu myth that the gods created everything by churning a sea of milk, or the classical belief that the universe hatched out of a cosmic egg.
> Some parts of the creation myth are plainly absurd. For example it is said that on the first day God created light and darkness but on the fourth day he created the sun (Gen 1:15-16). How can there be day and night without the sun? The creation myth also contradicts modern science which has proven how the universe began and how life evolved. There are no departments of astronomy or biology in any of the world's universities which teach the creation myth for the simple reason that it is not based on fact. So while it is true that Christianity has an explanation for how everything began (as do most religions) that explanation is just a myth.


Cheeky Blighter
you are giving the best lessons about the Bible.Thank you.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> You didn't offend me. Except when you suggest that I have chosen the devil! I think I live a life that most people would think is well intended and helpful to as many people as I can. I do not, as I said, believe there is any heaven or hell, beyond what we create in our own life. But, believing in god is not, in my opinion, the opposite of consorting with the devil (whom I also don't believe in), or living an evil life.


I am not saying you are not a good person. I am sure are a good mother, wife, friend, etc. I know you give your time and money to help others.But there are only 2 choices. You have to be on a side. Being good doesn't save you forgiveness does. Asking Jesus to come into your heart is salvation. What could it hurt? You have nothing to lose . All to gain. Have a great Saturday.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I am not saying you are not a good person. I am sure are a good mother, wife, friend, etc. I know you give your time and money to help others.But there are only 2 choices. You have to be on a side. Being good doesn't save you forgiveness does. Asking Jesus to come into your heart is salvation. What could it hurt? You have nothing to lose . All to gain. Have a great Saturday.


 I am on the side of rational, thoughtful living. I don't need saving, thank you.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Why are you sorry? I don't need your approval to believe in God Almighty. I agree it is very simple. All you have to have is a child like faith to receive the free gift of salvation. Why are you so opposed to a free gift that would give you eternal life in Heaven with God the Father and His Son Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit. You can be forgiven and live with them forever with out pain or tears. What about that scares you? Someone loves you so much that he offered up His only Son to save you from going to hell. All you have to do is ask him to forgive you of you sins. Just like I did. I was in your place before. I have never regretting asking Jesus in my heart. Would be so bad to have a loving Father, a Heavenly father? He loves you so much that if you were the only person. He would still have gave Jesus as sacrifice for you sins. He loves you and want you to come to Him and live with him forever and ever.


 :thumbup: BTW Christianity is still the #1 followed religion in the world today contrary to what she stated.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Why are you sorry? I don't need your approval to believe in God Almighty. I agree it is very simple. All you have to have is a child like faith to receive the free gift of salvation. Why are you so opposed to a free gift that would give you eternal life in Heaven with God the Father and His Son Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit. You can be forgiven and live with them forever with out pain or tears. What about that scares you? Someone loves you so much that he offered up His only Son to save you from going to hell. All you have to do is ask him to forgive you of you sins. Just like I did. I was in your place before. I have never regretting asking Jesus in my heart. Would be so bad to have a loving Father, a Heavenly father? He loves you so much that if you were the only person. He would still have gave Jesus as sacrifice for you sins. He loves you and want you to come to Him and live with him forever and ever.


You seem sincere, CB, and I have a certain respect for that. It's a simple matter for a creationist to skip over the chapters in a biology textbook that deal with evolution, but adhering to a literalist interpretation of the Bible means turnings one's back on most of what we've learned in the areas of history, linguistics, geology, astronomy, modern medicine, and archaeology. Why would a loving Father want to deny you marvels like the Neolithic cave paintings in Lascaux or the ancient pyramids of Egypt? Why would He want to lock anyone into a narrow world view that eliminates most of our human history and severely limits us from learning as much as we can about the present?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> If that's what you want to believe, go ahead. However, I do not see how that "loving" person allows the kind of horrors that are visited upon children, the poor, the innocent which we see and read about every day. I don't see how that works. I believe that we humans are responsible for our actions, that we are responsible for doing what we can to make the world a better place. We got ourselves into whatever messes are out there, and we are responsible for making them better. We do it because it is the least harmful way to live with our fellow human beings and the earth and creatures on it. I do not need a god, or bible or any other "father" to figure this out. I'm quite capable of handling this myself. And, when we die, that's it! What we leave behind, what is our afterlife, are the good deeds, kind children and other small contributions we have been able to make.


It happens and works because God created every human with free will. Because the first woman, sinned and did the one thing she was told not to do, God allowed evil into the world. From that day forward, man still has free will but is determined to sin thereby breaking the rules set out for humanity.

God created us in his image; which was perfect and without sin.

Man did not remain perfect and will never be perfect again.

God told us life on earth would not now be easy, fair or as we want it as mankind turned their back on God and his blessings again and again throughout history.

Read the Bible and have others explain to you that which is written in the pages. You'll understand the answers to your questions if you seek them from knowledgeable people.

You are taught by those who came before you, and yes, you do need both an earthly father and a Heavenly Father.

You have both and have the free will to listen to them or deny them.

Scientists cannot produce or give you an earthly father but God did.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> You didn't offend me. Except when you suggest that I have chosen the devil! I think I live a life that most people would think is well intended and helpful to as many people as I can. I do not, as I said, believe there is any heaven or hell, beyond what we create in our own life. But, believing in god is not, in my opinion, the opposite of consorting with the devil (whom I also don't believe in), or living an evil life.


I have a question. If you don't believe there is or in the devil, why are you then offended when told you have chosen the devil?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> Can't go somewhere that doesn't exist.


Can't be offended by someone of something that doesn't exist either then, correct?


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Why are you sorry? I don't need your approval to believe in God Almighty. I agree it is very simple. All you have to have is a child like faith to receive the free gift of salvation. Why are you so opposed to a free gift that would give you eternal life in Heaven with God the Father and His Son Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit. You can be forgiven and live with them forever with out pain or tears. What about that scares you? Someone loves you so much that he offered up His only Son to save you from going to hell. All you have to do is ask him to forgive you of you sins. Just like I did. I was in your place before. I have never regretting asking Jesus in my heart. Would be so bad to have a loving Father, a Heavenly father? He loves you so much that if you were the only person. He would still have gave Jesus as sacrifice for you sins. He loves you and want you to come to Him and live with him forever and ever.


Country Bumpkins
the "child like" many of us left behind and matured to adulthood. Thank heavens.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I am not saying you are not a good person. I am sure are a good mother, wife, friend, etc. I know you give your time and money to help others.But there are only 2 choices. You have to be on a side. Being good doesn't save you forgiveness does. Asking Jesus to come into your heart is salvation. What could it hurt? You have nothing to lose . All to gain. Have a great Saturday.


It sounds to me that people on this thread who don't believe and are not saved, think that by their 'good works' they are saved.

Yet, they fear going to Hell or to be on the devil's side even though they state Hell and the Devil don't exist.

That is one confused mind; to fear what you believe isn't possible and to wish for what can be but you won't accept.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Why are you sorry? I don't need your approval to believe in God Almighty. I agree it is very simple. All you have to have is a child like faith to receive the free gift of salvation. Why are you so opposed to a free gift that would give you eternal life in Heaven with God the Father and His Son Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit. You can be forgiven and live with them forever with out pain or tears. What about that scares you? Someone loves you so much that he offered up His only Son to save you from going to hell. All you have to do is ask him to forgive you of you sins. Just like I did. I was in your place before. I have never regretting asking Jesus in my heart. Would be so bad to have a loving Father, a Heavenly father? He loves you so much that if you were the only person. He would still have gave Jesus as sacrifice for you sins. He loves you and want you to come to Him and live with him forever and ever.


Country Bumpkins
the "child like" many of us left behind and matured to adulthood. Thank heavens.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I have a question. If you don't believe there is or in the devil, why are you then offended when told you have chosen the devil?


Because the implication is that I am evil for not believing in your god.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> It sounds to me that people on this threads who don't believe and are not saved, think that by their 'good works' they are saved.
> 
> Yet, they fear going to Hell or to be on the devil's side even though they state Hell and the Devil don't exist.
> 
> That is one confused mind; to fear what you believe isn't possible and to wish for what can be but you won't accept.


I don't "fear going to hell". There is nothing for me to accept. There is no god, except whatever construct you have created in your own mind, which doesn't apply to me. I don't have anything to be saved from except folks who are so certain they are right that they think they can judge those who don't believe as they do. Stop it!


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> It sounds to me that people on this threads who don't believe and are not saved, think that by their 'good works' they are saved.
> 
> Yet, they fear going to Hell or to be on the devil's side even though they state Hell and the Devil don't exist.
> 
> That is one confused mind; to fear what you believe isn't possible and to wish for what can be but you won't accept.


KPG
"saved" is not something any of us are aiming for. A myth we do not embrace. Fear of Hell and Devil? Really? I outgrew that long ago. Still waiting for you to give me the roadmap to where Heaven and Hell are located so I can make a preliminary visit to see if any of it is to my liking. In the meantime I hold on to the Cemetery Plot which will eventualy recycle all of me.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> Because the implication is that I am evil for not believing in your god.


And, I might argue, it has frightening implications for the future. We no longer in a religious theocracy, thank goodness, but there are those who will move heaven and earth to return us to the days when witch burning was the order of the day and men like Copernicus were threatened with torture to make them recant their so-called heretical discoveries.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> What to all of the wonderful things you have listed have to do with evolution? They have happened in the last 7000 years.


The Lescaux cave paintings are estimated to be a little over 17,000 years old.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

I'll try to put this as simply as I can.

There is science and there is faith. The point of faith is that it does not want or need evidence of its existence. That is what the word means - you are believing in something that has no actual evidence for its existence. 

There are theologians who did not want the Turin Shroud to be genuine, because if there is proof of something, you do not need faith. I hope that makes at least a little bit of sense.

What I do object to is the insistence that creationism be taught to children as fact. Science demands proof, and scientific knowledge changes with each discovery. Religious belief does not change and does not rely on any proof. There is no place in education for teaching anything that is based on faith. I suspect someone will be jumping all over me for this, but I hope it will be because I have not managed to express sufficiently clearly what I want to say. Morphine is a great brain cell squasher.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

I hope these will provide a more lucid expression of what I try to say.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> I'll try to put this as simply as I can.
> 
> There is science and there is faith. The point of faith is that it does not want or need evidence of its existence. That is what the word means - you are believing in something that has no actual evidence for its existence.
> 
> ...


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

Well said, aw.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> What to all of the wonderful things you have listed have to do with evolution? They have happened in the last 7000 years.


A strictly literalist interpretation of the Bible and belief that man has only existed for 6000 years eliminates everything that occurred before 4000 BC. Among them:

c. 6000 BC. The Mehrgarh site is one of the most important Neolithic sites in the world. It is located in present-day Pakistan (Baluchistan Province).

c. 6000 BC: The Copper Age comes to the Fertile Crescent. (Roux 1980) First use of copper in Middle East.

c. 6000 BC: Fully Neolithic agriculture has spread through Anatolia to the Balkans. (1967 McEvedy)

c. 6000 BC: Female figurines holding serpents are fashioned on Crete and may have been associated with water, regenerative power and protection of the home.

c. 6000 BC: The land bridge connecting England with the rest of Europe disappears beneath the waters of the North Sea and the English Channel.

c. 6000 BC: Brick building was taking place at modern-day Çatalhöyük, Turkey.

Agriculture appears in the valley of the Nile.

Rice cultivated in Asia.

c. 6000 BC5000 BC: Wine is created for the first time in Persia.

c. 5800 BC: Beginning of the Dadiwan culture in China.

c. 5800 BC: The Hassuna Period in Mesopotamia <t. 5500 BC>, with the earliest version of stamp seals.

c. 5600 BC: The Red Paint People become established in the region from present-day Labrador to New York state.
5509 BC: The Byzantine calendar dates creation to 1 September of this year.

c. 5500 BC: Earliest evidence of cheese-making (Kujawy, Poland).

c. 5000 BC: Agriculture began in the Americas perhaps this early, in complete isolation from the Old World.

c. 5500 BC: Beginning of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the region of modern-day Romania, Moldova, and southwestern Ukraine

c. 5500 BC: Beginning of the Xinle culture in China.

c. 5500 BC: Agriculture started in Ancient Egypt.

c. 5400 BC: Irrigation and the beginning of the Sumerian civilization in Southern Iraq.

c. 5000 BC: Farming reached central and north Europe.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> I hope these will provide a more lucid expression of what I try to say.


You said it well, Aw.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

Nice, susan.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> Nice, susan.


Thanks, Pardo. Once more I feel I'm talking to air, but the thought that people are willing to turn their backs on everything we've learned about early civilizations appalls me. It's like being forced to stand and watch as the contents of a library are piled in a heap and set on fire--unbearable.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Since you said estimated, it could be 7000 years.


No, the actual estimated figure is 17,300 - I was trying to make it simple. The estimate would not have that wide a range of numbers. For example, 17, 000 - 17, 600. It would not be off by 10,000 years. The estimate is based on real, scientific carbon dating.


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

After leaving here last night I tried to watch the History Channel - a documentary of a young archeologist investigating the 'Great Flood' documented in the Persian Gulf Region some 2000 years ago, and how it changed the Geographic area....I had nightmares all night of reading this thread over and over again.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Thanks, Pardo. Once more I feel I'm talking to air, but the thought that people are willing to turn their backs on everything we've learned about early civilizations appalls me. It's like being forced to stand and watch as the contents of a library are piled in a heap and set on fire--unbearable.


That may be next!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> That may be next!


Wouldn't surprise me a bit. Before coming to the political threads on KP I never dreamed there were folks who thought human history began in 4000 BC. In fact I might not have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. Such willful deliberate ignorance simply takes my breath away--it's a slap in the face to all the historians, paleontologists, and archaeologists who have labored for hundreds and hundreds of years trying to fit all the pieces together.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> I don't "fear going to hell". There is nothing for me to accept. There is no god, except whatever construct you have created in your own mind, which doesn't apply to me. I don't have anything to be saved from except folks who are so certain they are right that they think they can judge those who don't believe as they do. Stop it!


You have lost your focus and logic. You are offended when told you chose the devil yet you don't believe in Hell or the devil. You must believe there is a God if you question why God allows certain things as you stated prior. You judge me that I'm wrong and that you are right and then quote to me not to judge. If God didn't tell us not to judge one another who exactly are you quoting?

You tell us you do not need to be saved yet you seek salvation. You tell Christians not to speak of the Good News, yet you tell me to stop telling you of the Good News.

Since you believe in science and only science you have no faith. I ask you why then you believe in gravity? You have faith don't you that from a high place you must fall, correct? Has gravity been proven to you by science?

I suggest you read the works of the scientist who set out to prove God didn't exist. Guess what - his research proved the opposite!

God is Good.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> Because the implication is that I am evil for not believing in your god.


That is your implication not ours or at least not mine.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> I hope these will provide a more lucid expression of what I try to say.


aw9358
thank you, thank you.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Wouldn't surprise me a bit. Before coming to the political threads on KP I never dreamed there were folks who thought human history began in 4000 BC. In fact I might not have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. Such willful deliberate ignorance simply takes my breath away--it's a slap in the face to all the historians, paleontologists, and archaeologists who have labored for hundreds and hundreds of years trying to fit all the pieces together.


Who believes that?


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> A strictly literalist interpretation of the Bible and belief that man has only existed for 6000 years eliminates everything that occurred before 4000 BC. Among them:
> 
> c. 6000 BC. The Mehrgarh site is one of the most important Neolithic sites in the world. It is located in present-day Pakistan (Baluchistan Province).
> 
> ...


susanmos2000
thank you. Your lessons are wonderful.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You have lost your focus and logic. You are offended when told you chose the devil yet you don't believe in Hell or the devil. You must believe there is a God if you question why God allows certain things as you stated prior. You judge me that I'm wrong and that you are right and then quote to me not to judge. If God didn't tell us not to judge one another who exactly are you quoting?
> 
> You tell us you do not need to be saved yet you seek salvation. You tell Christians not to speak of the Good News, yet you tell me to stop telling you of the Good News.
> 
> ...


Great. Another thread derailed by religious conflict. Who are you trying to impress? Do you imagine you are going to convert anyone? Or do you just like to see your pronouncements in print?

I am truly offended by all of this, but as an atheist I'm not about to burn you for your beliefs.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Who believes that?


knitpresentgifts
my intelligent Peers provide facts, where is the roadmap from you to get me to your Heaven and Hell? Looking for proof and love to see where you wind up.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You have lost your focus and logic. You are offended when told you chose the devil yet you don't believe in Hell or the devil. You must believe there is a God if you question why God allows certain things as you stated prior. You judge me that I'm wrong and that you are right and then quote to me not to judge. If God didn't tell us not to judge one another who exactly are you quoting?
> 
> You tell us you do not need to be saved yet you seek salvation. You tell Christians not to speak of the Good News, yet you tell me to stop telling you of the Good News.
> 
> ...


I do not believe in hell or the devil. I do not appreciate being told I follow the ways of evil because of my beliefs.

I do not ask god why he/she does terrible things to people, I asked you why you think this is a loving god?

I do not seek salvation. I don't believe the myth of original sin, and I'm tired of having people insist that I must listen to their baloney, passing as news.

Science has proven many things through experiment and research. Gravity was an early one.

I don't have any interest in one scientist's blitherings which prove nothing. Scientific research must be able to be replicated - that is, the results must be the same when other scientists repeat the experiment. One person's experiment does not prove a thing.

Keep believing what you like. I will do the same.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> Great. Another thread derailed by religious conflict. Who are you trying to impress? Do you imagine you are going to convert anyone? Or do you just like to see your pronouncements in print?
> 
> I am truly offended by all of this, but as an atheist I'm not about to burn you for your beliefs.


Can you understand I was in conversation with someone other than you on a public forum? I didn't initiate the discussion and have no intention or need of impressing anyone, including you. If you are offended, that is your belief system, and I remain thankful you did not impress me. I do not get offended by anyone asking me why I believe as I do.

Good to note that you have no intention of burning anyone - thanks for the heads up and for your pronouncement in print. I haven't yet read anyone who would even consider such but you.

BTW: who were you trying to impress with the images you posted as an interruption in the conversation that you were not part of nor interested in? I didn't read your posted graphics so not sure who you meant to impress.


----------



## medusa (Nov 20, 2012)

pardoquilts said:


> If that's what you want to believe, go ahead. However, I do not see how that "loving" person allows the kind of horrors that are visited upon children, the poor, the innocent which we see and read about every day. I don't see how that works. I believe that we humans are responsible for our actions, that we are responsible for doing what we can to make the world a better place. We got ourselves into whatever messes are out there, and we are responsible for making them better. We do it because it is the least harmful way to live with our fellow human beings and the earth and creatures on it. I do not need a god, or bible or any other "father" to figure this out. I'm quite capable of handling this myself. And, when we die, that's it! What we leave behind, what is our afterlife, are the good deeds, kind children and other small contributions we have been able to make.


Pardoquilts - I just wanted to thank you for wrting such an eloquent response.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

medusa said:


> Pardoquilts - I just wanted to thank you for wrting such an eloquent response.


Thanks to you and others who have commented. I am a very active member of a Unitarian Universalist church, where we have, among other options, a Humanist group that meets regularly. I have had some time to practice my "elevator speech".


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Can you understand I was in conversation with someone other than you on a public forum? I didn't initiate the discussion and have no intention or need of impressing anyone, including you. If you are offended, that is your belief system, and I remain thankful you did not impress me. I do not get offended by anyone asking me why I believe as I do.
> 
> Good to note that you have no intention of burning anyone - thanks for the heads up and for your pronouncement in print. I haven't yet read anyone who would consider such but you.
> 
> BTW: who were you trying to impress with the images you posted as an interruption in the conversation that you were not part of are interested in? I didn't read your posted graphics so not sure who you meant to impress.


KPG
why don't you start with proof where Heaven and Hell are and we go from there.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> I do not believe in hell or the devil. I do not appreciate being told I follow the ways of evil because of my beliefs.
> 
> I do not ask god why he/she does terrible things to people, I asked you why you think this is a loving god?
> 
> ...


I shall refrain from answering your questions as I now understand you do not wish them to be answered.

I do have a question for you though. If evolution has been proven by scientific evidence, as you stated, and if creationism is not proof of how man and all came to be, then please explain to me why scientists cannot produce life?

If science has proven how life began and scientists must and can replicate and prove how living things evolved (as you stated) based on their experiments/findings/research, then why can't scientists breathe life into a cell as a result of their scientific findings?


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

I did not say scientists can "evolve" things. I said they understand how evolution works, and have fossil proof that shows how it does. 

How do you think some of the techniques for in vitro fertilization work? there is a sperm and an egg in a petri dish. They insert the sperm into the egg and create life. Then they place the already growing cells into a uterus. Sounds like creating life to me. The don't breath on it, though. That wouldn't be sterile!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> Thanks to you and others who have commented. I am a very active member of a Unitarian Universalist church, where we have, among other options, a Humanist group that meets regularly. I have had some time to practice my "elevator speech".


Do you believe in a God? Does he have a name?

If, so, is your God a loving God? How do you answer your own question about the poor, the downtrodden, etc., and reconcile it to science?

What does your 'church' teach about salvation, evil, good and after death?


----------



## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

I was going to say 'what about cloning?' but that should bring another firestorm raining down upon us.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> I did not say scientists can "evolve" things. I said they understand how evolution works, and have fossil proof that shows how it does.
> 
> How do you think some of the techniques for in vitro fertilization work? there is a sperm and an egg in a petri dish. They insert the sperm into the egg and create life. Then they place the already growing cells into a uterus. Sounds like creating life to me. The don't breath on it, though. That wouldn't be sterile!


That isn't creation. Replication of a living cell is just that. No scientists created the eggs and sperm. As you said, those cells were already growing cells. I ask you - who did create those living cells?


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

KPG, you are refraining from answering my only question because you don't have an answer.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

blessedinMO said:


> I was going to say 'what about cloning?' but that should bring another firestorm raining down upon us.


Cloning is a nice term for replication of living cells by scientists.

Who created the original living things?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> KPG, you are refraining from answering my only question because you don't have an answer.


What is your 'only' question?

I've answered all your questions to my best ability.

You are the person refusing to answer who created life.

You say not scientists, so who?


----------



## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Cloning is a nice term for replication of living cells by scientists.
> 
> Who created the original living things?


Of course. I stand corrected.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> What question?
> 
> I've answered all your question to my best ability.
> 
> ...


I did answer your question. Life happened because of a unique combination of chemicals in the right situation.

the question you have not answered is why you believe in a deity the allows horrible things to happen to innocent children and others who have done no harm. If you say it is because they don't accept Jesus then I say that is a pretty vindictive god you believe in.


----------



## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> I did answer your question. Life happened because of a unique combination of chemicals in the right situation.
> 
> the question you have not answered is why you believe in a deity the allows horrible things to happen to innocent children and others who have done no harm. If you say it is because they don't accept Jesus then I say that is a pretty vindictive god you believe in.


Why is God blamed for the inhumanities people do to one another?


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Can you understand I was in conversation with someone other than you on a public forum? I didn't initiate the discussion and have no intention or need of impressing anyone, including you. If you are offended, that is your belief system, and I remain thankful you did not impress me. I do not get offended by anyone asking me why I believe as I do.
> 
> Good to note that you have no intention of burning anyone - thanks for the heads up and for your pronouncement in print. I haven't yet read anyone who would even consider such but you.
> 
> BTW: who were you trying to impress with the images you posted as an interruption in the conversation that you were not part of nor interested in? I didn't read your posted graphics so not sure who you meant to impress.


What does "interruption" mean? Since, as you pointed out, this is a public forum, I believe I am allowed to post images and words. Others responded to them, which I though was the definition of a conversation.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Do you believe in a God? Does he have a name?
> 
> If, so, is your God a loving God? How do you answer your own question about the poor, the downtrodden, etc., and reconcile it to science?
> 
> What does your 'church' teach about salvation, evil, good and after death?


I do not believe in any deity. As I have said before, I believe that humans and nature are the only thing responsible for the poor, downtrodden, etc. I believe that science has the ability to help many bad situations, but we humans have to use science well.

My church teaches that we are all able to find our own spiritual paths, and that there is no need for so-called salvation. We believe that no one person has all the answers. We believe in the inherent worth and dignity of every person, and the interconnected web of which we are a part. We believe that when you die you are gone. Period. If you would like to know more about Unitarian-Universalism, the website is www.uua.org. And please have the respect to leave out the quotation marks around my church. The denomination dates to the 17th century, and our particular congregation has been around for 177 years.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

RachelL said:


> Why is God blamed for the inhumanities people do to one another?


Because, according to you and others, your god can do anything, is all powerful. Why punish innocent children?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> I did answer your question. Life happened because of a unique combination of chemicals in the right situation.
> 
> the question you have not answered is why you believe in a deity the allows horrible things to happen to innocent children and others who have done no harm. If you say it is because they don't accept Jesus then I say that is a pretty vindictive god you believe in.


To be certain I understand your belief. You believe that a big bang of chemicals (for lack of another term) began creation?

If so, and proven as you have stated, than I ask you again. Why then cannot scientists replicate those same conditions if they have proven and have the knowledge that is how to create life and how to began?

I have never said I believe in a God who allows horrible things to happen. Those are your words. Horrible things are not done by God, they are done by humans. God allows all men to sin, and all do. God allows all men to accept or deny Him, and all make a choice. My God is a loving God. He wishes nothing but love and blessings to all. He also wishes all would accept Him as their Saviour but many turn from Him and have so since He first created man. God gave man all of creation with one rule, not to eat of the Tree of Life. God gave man the freedom to choose. Man chose to disobey the one rule. God told all men that because of that original disobedience all men would be cursed. That is man allowing horrible things to come upon Him, that is not God allowing horrible things to happen.

It is no different from you telling your child to not touch a hot stove or he'll get burned. If your child disobeys you and touches and gets burned, you do not then state you burned him do you? You allowed him his choice, he disobeyed, and the hurt was a direct result of his disobedience.


----------



## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> I did answer your question. Life happened because of a unique combination of chemicals in the right situation.
> 
> the question you have not answered is why you believe in a deity the allows horrible things to happen to innocent children and others who have done no harm. If you say it is because they don't accept Jesus then I say that is a pretty vindictive god you believe in.


Where did the chemicals come from in the first place? It is impossible to have something from nothing.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> To be certain I understand your belief. You believe that a big bang of chemicals (for lack of another term) began creation?
> 
> If so, and proven as you have stated, than I ask you again. Why then cannot scientists replicate those same conditions if they have proven and have the knowledge that is how to create life and how to began?
> 
> I have never said I believe in a God who allows horrible things to happen. Those are your words. Horrible things are not done by God, they are done by humans. God allows all men to sin, and all do. God allows all men to accept or deny Him, and all make a choice. My God is a loving God. He wishes nothing but love and blessings to all. He also wishes all would accept Him as their Saviour but many turn from Him and have so since He first created man.


You god allows people to sin, as in abusing children? The children have done nothing! How can you believe in that kind of god?


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

RachelL said:


> Where did the chemicals come from in the first place? It is impossible to have something from nothing.


There is not space nor time to do a complete history of the universe on these pages. Go do some research on non-religious websites.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> What does "interruption" mean? Since, as you pointed out, this is a public forum, I believe I am allowed to post images and words. Others responded to them, which I though was the definition of a conversation.


You accused me of interrupting this thread with 'talk' of religion. I stated you, in turn, interrupted this thread with your images that 'spoke' to the conversation.

Don't understand why you wish to start a worthless side conversation, but you're free to do so. Far be it from me to stop you.


----------



## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> Because, according to you and others, your god can do anything, is all powerful. Why punish innocent children?


Again, why are you blaming God for the atrocities humans do? If we all lived according to His desire for us these things wouldn't happen: Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> You seem sincere, CB, and I have a certain respect for that. It's a simple matter for a creationist to skip over the chapters in a biology textbook that deal with evolution, but adhering to a literalist interpretation of the Bible means turnings one's back on most of what we've learned in the areas of history, linguistics, geology, astronomy, modern medicine, and archaeology. Why would a loving Father want to deny you marvels like the Neolithic cave paintings in Lascaux or the ancient pyramids of Egypt? Why would He want to lock anyone into a narrow world view that eliminates most of our human history and severely limits us from learning as much as we can about the present?


I don't know what you are talking about.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Country Bumpkins
> the "child like" many of us left behind and matured to adulthood. Thank heavens.


Thanks for the compliment even tho I know it was not meant as one.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> And, I might argue, it has frightening implications for the future. We no longer in a religious theocracy, thank goodness, but there are those who will move heaven and earth to return us to the days when witch burning was the order of the day and men like Copernicus were threatened with torture to make them recant their so-called heretical discoveries.


Who wants you to burn? I don't. What are you talking about????


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> I do not believe in any deity. As I have said before, I believe that humans and nature are the only thing responsible for the poor, downtrodden, etc. I believe that science has the ability to help many bad situations, but we humans have to use science well.
> 
> My church teaches that we are all able to find our own spiritual paths, and that there is no need for so-called salvation. We believe that no one person has all the answers. We believe in the inherent worth and dignity of every person, and the interconnected web of which we are a part. We believe that when you die you are gone. Period. If you would like to know more about Unitarian-Universalism, the website is www.uua.org. And please have the respect to leave out the quotation marks around my church. The denomination dates to the 17th century, and our particular congregation has been around for 177 years.


1) church defined: noun \ˈchərch\
: a building that is used for Christian religious services

: religious services held in a church

: a particular Christian group

>>>> as you have stated, your 'church' does not fit any of these standard definitions (you are not a building, you are not holding a religious service in a building of worship to a deity, nor are you a Christian). I have no idea, therefore, why you name your gathering of believers in your beliefs a 'church.'

2) Christians also believe that humans are responsible for the poor and downtrodden just as you do. Jesus taught us that the poor will always be with us and Christians are commanded to care for the poor, the poor in spirit and to love one another as ourself.

3) I also believe science can be used to the good of all people; and often is. I also acknowledge that science cannot and has yet to create any living thing, particularly a human, which is the topic of our discussion.

4) Because you do not believe in Heaven nor Hell, and that you have no life after death, why, then, do you need to nurture your spirit? According to your statements, you have no spirit so why follow a path of like-minded spiritual believers? Having no spirit is good reason not to seek salvation, but you believe you are a spiritual being, yet refuse to feed your spirit. Interesting ...

5) My faith, which by your words, you have proven you do not understand, dates back to the beginning of time. Day One. I don't care how many years ago that was since there was nothing before.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> Because, according to you and others, your god can do anything, is all powerful. Why punish innocent children?


My God is the Great I Am. God does not punish innocent children. Why do you continue to insist he does? You have admitted you do not know God. Does your beliefs teach you this? Which faith or religions teaches thus?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

RachelL said:


> Where did the chemicals come from in the first place? It is impossible to have something from nothing.


She continually refuses to answer that question so far.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> There is not space nor time to do a complete history of the universe on these pages. Go do some research on non-religious websites.


In other words, you cannot explain how science created life. Particularly even after you say science has proven how life began.

The answer is because neither science nor a chemical explosion created anything.

God did.

It is also the reason you have signed off from this discussion; you cannot prove your 'facts' of discovery and have no Faith.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> You god allows people to sin, as in abusing children? The children have done nothing! How can you believe in that kind of god?


Yes, he does allow all people to sin. All these facts are in His words in the Bible.

How can you believe some perfect mixture of chemicals would stop people from sinning?

Now _ that _ is far-fetched.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> My God is the Great I Am. God does not punish innocent children. Why do you continue to insist he does? You have admitted you do not know God. Does your beliefs teach you this? Which faith or religions teaches thus?


KPG
you do not know about the thousands of children who die daily of starvation? Where is their Savior? Why he is so absent?


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Yes, he does allow all people to sin. All these facts are in His words in the Bible.
> 
> How can you believe some perfect mixture of chemicals would stop people from sinning?
> 
> Now _ that _ is far-fetched.


KPG
he never wrote anything. The Bible is Man's creation.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You accused me of interrupting this thread with 'talk' of religion. I stated you, in turn, interrupted this thread with your images that 'spoke' to the conversation.
> 
> Don't understand why you wish to start a worthless side conversation, but you're free to do so. Far be it from me to stop you.


Actually, I did not accuse you of interrupting the thread. It was a general comment that this thread has gone the way of so many before it. Of course anything I might want to say is worthless. You are the great I Am, not your God. And I shall continue to post images that I consider pertinent, as so many others do. You already said that you don't read them, so where's the harm?


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> In other words, you cannot explain how science created life.
> 
> The answer is because neither science nor a chemical explosion created anything.
> 
> ...


KPG
we know your retreating when any discussion gets too sticky for you, others do not follow you in that manner.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> Actually, I did not accuse you of interrupting the thread. It was a general comment that this thread has gone the way of so many before it. Of course anything I might want to say is worthless. You are the great I Am, not your God. And I shall continue to post images that I consider pertinent, as so many others do. You already said that you don't read them, so where's the harm?


aw9358
Always good to see you.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> Actually, I did not accuse you of interrupting the thread. It was a general comment that this thread has gone the way of so many before it. Of course anything I might want to say is worthless. You are the great I Am, not your God. And I shall continue to post images that I consider pertinent, as so many others do. You already said that you don't read them, so where's the harm?


Why do you address me for the sake of arguing about nothing?

BTW; rhetorical question. You said 'derailed' I said 'interrupted.'

Everyone is free to say and act as they wish.


----------



## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> KPG
> he never wrote anything. The Bible is Man's creation.


Huckleberry: Have you ever read or studied the Bible?


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> What is your 'only' question?
> 
> I've answered all your questions to my best ability.
> 
> ...


KPG
missed many classes? Go to the Library. Never too late to learn.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> In other words, you cannot explain how science created life.
> 
> The answer is because neither science nor a chemical explosion created anything.
> 
> ...


I signed off because I had work to do.

I do not have faith as you define it. Never have, never will. Don't need it, don't want to believe in myths.

I did explain how scientists create life. You want to pick and choose your facts and arguments.

I do not now, nor have I ever, believed in any kind of god, and if the god you think exists is so great, why would he let those innocent children suffer? They aren't old enough to have sinned.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> aw9358
> Always good to see you.


Thanks, Huck. I was starting to wonder.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> Thanks, Huck. I was starting to wonder.


Anne I am always glad to see you.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Why do you address me for the sake of arguing about nothing. BTW; rhetorical question. You said 'derailed' I say 'interruption' Frankly who cares? Sigh ....


Your condescension is staggering.


----------



## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> 1) church defined: noun \ˈchərch\
> : a building that is used for Christian religious services
> 
> : religious services held in a church
> ...


The word church originally meant the body of believers who believed Jesus was the prophesied Messiah. It was not a building.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> I signed off because I had work to do.
> 
> I did explain how scientists create life. You want to pick and choose your facts and arguments.
> 
> ...


>>>>> For the last time, you do not know my God. My God is not to blame for anyone who suffers. You take on that mantra so claim it.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

Church: a building for public and especially Christian worship . I went to Mirriam Webster, too, and didn't edit the definition.

It doesn't say ONLY Christian worship. We do have a building, we do have services, we do not require adherence to a particular dogma or creed. We believe people are capable of figuring out how best to live their lives without dictates from a book written by many men over many centuries. We honor all different paths to a good, productive life.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

RachelL said:


> The word church originally meant the body of believers who believed Jesus was the prophesied Messiah. It was not a building.


I agree! Also, the word has taken on other meanings to all people, but within the Christian Faith, it does still mean the people.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> >>>>> For the last time, you do not know my God. My God is not to blame for anyone who suffers. You take on that mantra so claim it.


But why would anyone do that to children? Why doesn't your god stop the starvation and ignorance? Take it out on the grownups.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

Apparently your god isn't to blame for anything and demands a great deal. 

Sorry, not my idea of something to believe in.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> Church: a building for public and especially Christian worship . I went to Mirriam Webster, too, and didn't edit the definition.
> 
> It doesn't say ONLY Christian worship. We do have a building, we do have services, we do not require adherence to a particular dogma or creed. We believe people are capable of figuring out how best to live their lives without dictates from a book written by many men over many centuries. We honor all different paths to a good, productive life.


I didn't edit the definition. I copied and pasted directly. The word derives from a language where it means of people who follow a religious belief. You stated your beliefs and that you do not believe in a deity, therefore, not of a religion and therefore, not worshipping. You may gather and discuss, but you are not a church by definition, a group of religious followers, a building nor do you worship a deity.

You do not have to believe the definition, but you also don't adhere to the defined word either. I have no idea, then, why, again you became offended to something you claim you are yet doesn't exist.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> Apparently your god isn't to blame for anything and demands a great deal.
> 
> Sorry, not my idea of something to believe in.


Nicely put.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I didn't edit the definition. I copied and pasted directly. The word derives from a language where it means of people who follow a religious belief. You stated your beliefs and that you do not believe in a deity, therefore, not of a religion and therefore, not worshipping. You may gather and discuss, but you are not a church by definition, a group of religious followers, a building nor do you worship a deity.
> 
> You do not have to believe the definition, but you also don't adhere to the defined word either. I have no idea, then, why, again you became offended to something you claim you are yet doesn't exist.


The name derives from tradition. Unitarians originally did believe in a god, centuries ago. However, many of us do not now. Again, I don't understand why you would disrespect a group which has been defined as a church for many centuries.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Was I right? KPG proved me right once again. All they do is follow the libs around and slam us. No matter what thread it is.
> I say it needs to get a life away from us.


Your own history backs that up very nicely.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Really solowey? Aren't you a little far from home in a lib thread? Your words have just reflected your own behavior. You just can't stay away from us.


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## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> But why would anyone do that to children? Why doesn't your god stop the starvation and ignorance? Take it out on the grownups.


If God did what you suggest, He'd take us all out. The Bible tells us that sin is sin, there are no degrees of sin. No such thing as a little white lie; it's a lie. If we've broken one of God's commandments (613 not just 10), we've broken them all. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" & "there is none that is righteous, no not one", "for all our righteousness are as filthy (actually says menstruous) rags before God."

For those who believe the Bible, God is most holy. merciful and loving. He proved His love by coming to earth to die on the cross for all sinners. But He is also an avenging, an all-consuming fire Who will on Judgment Day mete out righteousness justice. We will all have to give an account of what we've done with the gift of life He has given us.

Every wrong that has ever been committed cries out for justice. If we evolved from gasses or chemicals, from where does this need for justice come?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> But why would anyone do that to children? Why doesn't your god stop the starvation and ignorance? Take it out on the grownups.


Why don't you ask that of those who abuse children. No Christian would. So stop asking Christians why we abuse children since we do not. I'm still waiting to learn when and how scientists created life.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put, pardoquilts.



pardoquilts said:


> Well, no, not really. All the scientists I know, and I know many, am married to one, don't believe that at all! If you believe in the certainty of DNA, how can you not understand the point that because we share 98.8 percent of our DNA with apes, we must be related to them? Science certainly doesn't believe that the earth has only existed for 6000 years!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you so much for sharing.



ummirain said:


> I protested the Viet Nam war, marched for Civil Rights, knit sweaters for the children in Afghanistan, have been arrested for protesting the killing of a victim of domeatic violence by her husband after sge had attempted to enter a women's shelter, arreated for protesting tge deployment of nuclear weapons, the right to reproductive freedom. I am 70 now and if I had to do it over I Would Do More, and still have time to knit. "Never soubt that a small and dedicated gruop of people can change the world. Indeed, it is tge onky thing that wver has!" Marfaret Meade. Aorry you are so unhappily angry.....this is a non-knitting chat page. Have a peaceful sleep.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> Apparently your god isn't to blame for anything and demands a great deal.
> 
> Sorry, not my idea of something to believe in.


I understand you do not believe in my God, you've said so multiple times. My God is perfect and therefore deserves no blame. His son is the only person to walk this earth who did not sin; no one will ever replicate that; not even a scientist or a perfect combination of chemicals! God also gave commandments to His followers. I agree with you on both of your points.

I'm still interested to learn who exactly you worship when you gather with your fellow believers? As you repeated the definition of a church as people who may be non-Christians gathering to worship ... whom?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Excellent comparisons. Thank you for your thoughts.



EveMCooke said:


> The people who lived in bible times believed that the world was flat, like a pancake. They believed that the sun revolved around the earth. They believed that many diseases and crop failures were caused by a women casting the evil eye on them. In fact these beliefs were held fast until they were proven incorrect only a few hundred years ago. Maybe there is a lesson here. The pet ideas held by some people, I will not call them theories as that word is misused, will be further exposed as false. Evolution is fact. No amount of mumbo Jumbo will twist, distort or ridicule the evidence found in fossils. Some minor disagreements are there regarding time lines but all agree with the foundation principles.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

In my honest opinion, critical thinking is the base of education.



EveMCooke said:


> Because these ideas are comfortable, like a pair of old slippers. These people do not know how to question, they have been taught to just accept what their elders have taught them.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I understand how difficult this is for fundamentalist Christians to believe. No one is saying they must change their beliefs, but they must not try to change everyone else's either.



peacegoddess said:


> buddhist critique of christianity
> 
> It is true that Christianity has an explanation about how everything began. But is this explanation correct? Let us examine it. The Bible says that God created everything in six days and on the seventh day he rested. This quaint story is nothing more than a myth and is no more true than the Hindu myth that the gods created everything by churning a sea of milk, or the classical belief that the universe hatched out of a cosmic egg.
> Some parts of the creation myth are plainly absurd. For example it is said that on the first day God created light and darkness but on the fourth day he created the sun (Gen 1:15-16). How can there be day and night without the sun? The creation myth also contradicts modern science which has proven how the universe began and how life evolved. There are no departments of astronomy or biology in any of the world's universities which teach the creation myth for the simple reason that it is not based on fact. So while it is true that Christianity has an explanation for how everything began (as do most religions) that explanation is just a myth.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> The name derives from tradition. Unitarians originally did believe in a god, centuries ago. However, many of us do not now. Again, I don't understand why you would disrespect a group which has been defined as a church for many centuries.


Again, you are offended by something you don't believe in. I cannot fathom how that is even possible.

Furthermore, you now admit Unitarians used to believe in a God. I guess today's Unitarians evolved into other beliefs then?

My God is unchanging. What He spoke on day one, remains the same today and always. I have not disrespected a group who defines themselves as something they are not. I simply asked how they fit the definition of a word that you took offense to, not me. I know little about your group so have no desire or way to disrespect their beliefs that I don't even know. That is why I asked you some questions; to learn what you believe.

If you gather to worship, you are a church as the world defines a church. If you gather to talk, as we are doing here, no worshipping of a supreme being is going on and no one would define our discussion as being at church would they?

You regularly inaccurately accuse my religious beliefs because you don't understand them. Yet, you don't seem to understand your own beliefs or at least don't express them here when questioned.

I've enjoyed learning about your beliefs, but I'm going to look at the web source you cited for some answers that I have asked but haven't had yet answered by you.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put.



pardoquilts said:


> If that's what you want to believe, go ahead. However, I do not see how that "loving" person allows the kind of horrors that are visited upon children, the poor, the innocent which we see and read about every day. I don't see how that works. I believe that we humans are responsible for our actions, that we are responsible for doing what we can to make the world a better place. We got ourselves into whatever messes are out there, and we are responsible for making them better. We do it because it is the least harmful way to live with our fellow human beings and the earth and creatures on it. I do not need a god, or bible or any other "father" to figure this out. I'm quite capable of handling this myself. And, when we die, that's it! What we leave behind, what is our afterlife, are the good deeds, kind children and other small contributions we have been able to make.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Really solowey? Aren't you a little far from home in a lib thread? Your words have just reflected your own behavior. You just can't stay away from us.


Who decided and determined this is a Liberal thread? The OP asked what is the most outrageous political act we have done.

I read no bias into that question, why did you?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm with you.



pardoquilts said:


> I am on the side of rational, thoughtful living. I don't need saving, thank you.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And it insults your intelligence for not believing as they do.



pardoquilts said:


> Because the implication is that I am evil for not believing in your god.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

damemary said:


> I understand how difficult this is for fundamentalist Christians to believe. No one is saying they must change their beliefs, but they must not try to change everyone else's either.


Who exactly, by name, is the Fundamentalist Christians you continue to speak of?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I find the biblical lectures annoying. Perhaps I will start sharing scientific tracts to educate others.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

damemary said:


> I find the biblical lectures annoying. Perhaps I will start sharing scientific tracts to educate others.


Yes please.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Why don't you ask that of those who abuse children. No Christian would. So stop asking Christians why we abuse children since we do not. I'm still waiting to learn when and how scientists created life.


Oh, please. Christians abuse children probably at the same rate as any other group.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> Oh, please. Christians abuse children probably at the same rate as any other group.


You mean like Unitarians? Good, then you'll have someone to ask about their actions then.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm finding it most difficult to find interesting scientific articles for the layperson. Suggestions, please.



aw9358 said:


> Yes please.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

pardoquilts said:


> Oh, please. Christians abuse children probably at the same rate as any other group.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You mean like Unitarians? Good, then you'll have someone to ask about their actions then.


What the heck is that supposed to mean?


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> I signed off because I had work to do.
> 
> I do not have faith as you define it. Never have, never will. Don't need it, don't want to believe in myths.
> 
> ...


pardoquilts
so many questions we have asked for so long and never an adequate answer coming our way. Their merciful God has no mercy.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> An educated person in Bible times knew that the earth was a sphere. They also knew that drought and diseases where allowed by God because of their disobedience. Even Satan knew this and took full advantage. Read Job.
> 
> Job 26:6-8 (NKJV)
> 
> ...


joeysomma
may some God other than yours have mercy on those of us who are innocent, the children.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> Oh, please. Christians abuse children probably at the same rate as any other group.


pardoquilt
my experience is that many Christians punish much more and much harder and then go to confession. That certain circle they rely on.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Wonderful we can agree on something.
> 
> If a squirrel adapts, it is still a squirrel.
> 
> ...


Wrong again joey. What is a frog before it becomes a frog? Why do human fetuses have gills and some even residual tails that doctors remove at birth? Probably because at one time we had tails and no longer need them and fetuses need gills just like a fish when we are in the uterus. Perhaps, as some believe we originally came form the ocean and then came on to the land. Perhaps we did swing through the trees and now can walk upright on the ground. We know all these things are true because of science. We know none of this from the bible stories. Go to any major natural history museum on the world and you could start at the Smithsonian or the Field Museum in Chicago which is close to your home. Carbon dating joey and other methods used in science are very exacting on how old human remains, animal remains and thousands of other artifacts are. Your Bible neither proves or disproves anything because it is a compilation of stories written by men over several years. You say you believe in science but yet you reject the obvious truth if it contradicts your Bible. That is ignorance joey and nothing more. What are you so afraid of? Do you fear that your beliefs are built on sand? Most Christians would not even agree with you and don't see a conflict with their Bible teaching and science. You are a member of an extreme minority and you can't even see that. Also, your wanting to force your beliefs on the rest of us in government, public education, etc. Teach your beliefs in your own home and place of worship because they do not belong in a public forum that is paid for by other Americans who do not share your beliefs. Your arrogance and ignorance are breath taking.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

The truth about those sweethearts on the religious right. They aren't that sweet or religious.


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## Queenmum (Dec 3, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> *sigh* I simply don't understand why some folks are so militantly anti-evolution. The Catholic church doesn't have a problem with it, nor with viewing certain passages of the Old Testament as symbolic rather than literal. Of course not everyone looks at the Pope with a favorable eye, but do you think such a highly-educated man could be considered either a dupe or a dope?


I agree with Karen Armstrong, who said that fundamentalists in the three monotheistic religions have more in common with each other than they do with the mainstreams of their religions. :thumbup:


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

Check out places like the Smithsonian website or National Geographic for "user friendly" information.


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

LOL Cheeky. LOVE it.


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

Truth is that even most Fundamentalists do not understand Fundamentalists.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Robert Boyle's discoveries


What? A 17th century figure?


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Queenmum said:


> I agree with Karen Armstrong, who said that fundamentalists in the three monotheistic religions have more in common with each other than they do with the mainstreams of their religions. :thumbup:


Totally agree Queenmum. The only ones who don't see it are the fundamentalists. :thumbup:


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> There is nothing *provable* in science that disagrees with the Bible. Scientists much smarter than I have stated that. Most of the famous scientists before the 20th century studied the Bible.
> 
> Modern scientists do not want to admit it, because they do not want to be accountable to God. When Darwin came along, that gave them a reason to count God out. They want to believe in them selves and then any kind of behavior is good. Hitler used Darwinian ideas to condone the inhumane practices of the Third Reich.


You are just plain wrong, Joey. There is a huge amount of scientific research that disagrees with the bible. Modern scientists work from current information, not from the 17th, eighteenth and 19th centuries! Darwin hesitated to publish his research because his wife was a devout Christian, but publish he did, because truth must come out. Hitler, like you, misinterpreted Darwin.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

blessedinMO said:


> Truth is that even most Fundamentalists do not understand Fundamentalists.


To date I've not heard from any Fundamentalists on KP. Have you?


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> What? A 17th century figure?


joey keeps repeating herself. I've seen the Boyle story before.
She is totally out of gas and running on fumes. Maybe it is old age she keeps telling us about her kids and their travels abroad and her travels along with repeating over and over again "her proof" trying hopelessly to defend her beliefs. Maybe, that's your problem joey, the world has moved along and you are years and years behind and not catching up. I'm trying to tell you in a nice way you are really boring and nobody cares and you are making a lot of people sick. Who does that? A crazy person?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Totally agree Queenmum. The only ones who don't see it are the fundamentalists. :thumbup:


Exactly who on this thread is a Fundamentalist? Name them please.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> You asked what a frog is before it becomes a frog. Once the egg is fertilized it is a frog. Each stage of the frog's development has an identifying name, but it still is a frog.
> 
> When a human egg is fertilized, it is a baby. each stage of development has different scientific names. But it is still a Baby. The story of a baby having gills has been disproved, since the baby gets oxygen through the umbilical cord. The only purpose of gills would be to get oxygen from liquid. If there is any, it would be such a minute amount from ambiotic fluid, so gills would have no purpose.
> 
> ...


And you are a fool Joey or crazy or maybe both. Stop while you are ahead. Nobody wants to hear your stories anymore.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

blessedinMO said:


> Truth is that even most Fundamentalists do not understand Fundamentalists.


BTW I'm curious how you are blessed and by whom if you'd care to share. (re your ID name)


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> You are just plain wrong, Joey. There is a huge amount of scientific research that disagrees with the bible. Modern scientists work from current information, not from the 17th, eighteenth and 19th centuries! Darwin hesitated to publish his research because his wife was a devout Christian, but publish he did, because truth must come out. Hitler, like you, misinterpreted Darwin.


You got it right pardoquilts and I thank you for pointing that out to joey, one of the "fundamentalist" right wing extremists on KP.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

blessedinMO said:


> Truth is that even most Fundamentalists do not understand Fundamentalists.


blessedinMO
I am glad to hear that, I thought I was the only one thinking that.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> I find the biblical lectures annoying. Perhaps I will start sharing scientific tracts to educate others.


damemary
go for it Girl, that other stuff is so worn out.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> BTW I'm curious how you are blessed and by whom if you'd care to share. (re your ID name)


KPG
always digging for stuff to put your hooks into, aren't you! DANAS


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> Thanks, Huck. I was starting to wonder.


aw9358
you are like a breath of fresh air.


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

I don't think you are likely to.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Exactly who on this thread is a Fundamentalist? Name them please.


Hmmmm.how about you?


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

BTW I'm curious how you are blessed and by whom if you'd care to share. (re your ID name)


Huckleberry said:


> KPG
> always digging for stuff to put your hooks into, aren't you! DANAS


I had to make a life-changing move last year on short notice with a long geographic relocation and zero preparation time for planning how I could make it all work It was scary and hard, but I feel content and satisfied with the result. I feel blessed and content.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> So who is Robert Boyle? So call me crazy. But you realize the most intelligent people are crazy. Remember Ted K.


You are the one who suggested Boyle. I'd rather get my information from a contemporary source.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Other than evolution, what in modern science disagrees with the Bible? The history of prehistoric man and dinosaurs is history not science.


Determining the age of prehistoric fossils is done through the use of science.


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## blessedinMO (Mar 9, 2013)

Exactly who on this thread is a Fundamentalist? Name them please.


pardoquilts said:


> Hmmmm.how about you?


By name? I don't think that's required here?


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

That is just plain ridiculous to claim. What is archeology? 
What is paleontology? What is biology?



joeysomma said:


> Other than evolution, what in modern science disagrees with the Bible? The history of prehistoric man and dinosaurs is history not science.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

I don't know what a fundamentalist is but if it means I am a fool for Christ that is the truth. Here is the song I sing. |

Testify The Love

VERSE 1:
All the colors of the rainbow
All of voices of the wind
Every dream that reaches out
That reaches out to find where love begins
Every word of every story
Every star in every sky
Every corner of creation lives to testify

CHORUS:
For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
With every breath I take I will give thanks to God above
For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love

VERSE 2:
From the mountains to the valleys
From the rivers to the sea
Every hand that reaches out
Every hand that reaches out to offer peace
Every simple act of mercy
Every step to kingdom come
All the Hope in every heart will
Speak what love has done

CHORUS:
For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
With every breath I take I will give thanks to God above
For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love

(Instrumental)

CHORUS (until the end):
For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
With every breath I take I will give thanks to God above
For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Man does not actually produce variability; he only unintentionally exposes organic beings to new conditions of life, and then nature acts on the organisation, and causes variability. But man can and does select the variations given to him by nature, and thus accumulate them in any desired manner. He thus adapts animals and plants for his own benefit or pleasure. He may do this methodically, or he may do it unconsciously by preserving the individuals most useful to him at the time, without any thought of altering the breed. It is certain that he can largely influence the character of a breed by selecting, in each successive generation, individual differences so slight as to be quite inappreciable by an uneducated eye. This process of selection has been the great agency in the production of the most distinct and useful domestic breeds. That many of the breeds produced by man have to a large extent the character of natural species, is shown by the inextricable doubts whether very many of them are varieties or aboriginal species.


joeysomma
you copy well.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> joeysomma
> you copy well.


How do you like my singing?


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> I believe it has been found, about 20+ years ago there was a TV program on one of the main stream media stations that found a huge wooden structure on one of the mountains of Ararat, in modern day Turkey. They calculated that the measurement were the same as in the Bible and they also found partitions like animals would be kept in a barn.
> 
> Since many people do believe it is a fairy tale they would not want to admit it has been found.


Actually, I think you are correct. I remember reading about this or seeing in on television.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Shame on you who throws stones and is judge and juror. You do not know me and my words are the truth. No one, including me, is responsible for another group of Christians. I hope you raise your children in the way they should go so they do not depart from it.
> 
> You cannot even understand my post to Susan. Your words are ridiculous, so I shall not respond to you again. Please do not address me again as I do not suffer fools. (not calling you a name - speaking the truth once again). You chose to judge and insult me yet again. God will judge me accordingly not you; he resents that.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> damemary
> go for it Girl, that other stuff is so worn out.


But sadly, some won't (can't) understand it.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> joeysomma
> you copy well.


Doesn't she though. I wonder if she even understands what she copied.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> To date I've not heard from any Fundamentalists on KP. Have you?


Everyday from you!!


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

As I read through all the posts, the one thing that stands out to me is that some are disputing others right to their belief system. It doesn't matter what is right or wrong - just what is right and works for you. If you want to believe in God, great, go for it. If you don't, that's great too. Why does it matter to anyone else what one believes?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Who decided and determined this is a Liberal thread? The OP asked what is the most outrageous political act we have done.
> 
> I read no bias into that question, why did you?


Oh please, the only reason you came into this thread is because it was started by someone who opposes you. Once the libs started posting, there you were and still are. You are fooling no one. 
"I could have died a thousand deaths."......... gag. What happened to you not responding to my posts?


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> As I read through all the posts, the one thing that stands out to me is that some are disputing others right to their belief system. It doesn't matter what is right or wrong - just what is right and works for you. If you want to believe in God, great, go for it. If you don't, that's great too. Why does it matter to anyone else what one believes?


 Because we want everyone to have the joy and gift of eternal life that we have. I want everyone to know that God has taken care of me in hard times. He has never left me or forsaken. Life is so very hard and He has helped me thru it. I couldn't have made it without His strength . We probably don't know how to reach everyone but I will try as long as I have breath . Someone gave His life for our sins. I just think it is important to tell anyone who may need His help. It is out of love that we do it. It doesn't benefit me to tell you. You just get mad and call me names so why should I tell you just to get called names? Not you but everyone that doesn't believe. We have all been in the same boat at one time. I just have a Savior that I love and want to share HIm with everyone. Sorry if I don't do it in the right way. I do mean well. I agree with you it is everyone's own free will to pick or chose who they serve. If I saw someone drowning I would reach out to help them out of the water . Same thing as helping someone with their spiritual life.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> I find the biblical lectures annoying. Perhaps I will start sharing scientific tracts to educate others.


Or perhaps we could post long tracts from the Koran, the Torah or the Tripitaka. I wonder how well they would be received. Perhaps I should lead with quoting The Four Noble Truths. But I do not read those long Bible quotes, to many other interesting posts to read. I always read the posts marked SL though, I love these posts, they brighten my day.


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## alwilda (Apr 14, 2011)

laceandbits said:


> Hidden in the depths, around page 8 or 9, is the wonderful irony that the linens sent by the OP to make her outrageous statement were returned to her, by a secretary, as not being suitable or some similar bland comment.
> 
> So not only was it a bit pointless in the first place, it was treated with a polite contempt which just made the whole thing a complete farce.


thank you, will look at that page


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## alwilda (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Thank you was from the social secretary.
> 
> Yes Eleanor had a FBI file, she was considered a radical because of her social justice work.
> 
> Blanche Wiesen Cook wrote a great biography of Eleanor.


thank you for that info


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I don't know what you are talking about.


I'm talking about the belief that human life has only existed on earth for some 6000 years. I know Joey believes this, and I thought you had said the same.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm talking about the belief that human life has only existed on earth for some 6000 years. I know Joey believes this, and I thought you had said the same.


No I didn't say it.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> No I didn't say it.


My apologies then. :-D


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> My apologies then. :-D


 :thumbup:


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> Hmmmm.how about you?


Nope - not even close. Another thing you don't understand about Christians, I guess.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

blessedinMO said:


> BTW I'm curious how you are blessed and by whom if you'd care to share. (re your ID name)
> 
> I had to make a life-changing move last year on short notice with a long geographic relocation and zero preparation time for planning how I could make it all work It was scary and hard, but I feel content and satisfied with the result. I feel blessed and content.


Thanks for your reply. I'm happy for you that all seemed to work out for you.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

blessedinMO said:


> Exactly who on this thread is a Fundamentalist? Name them please.
> 
> By name? I don't think that's required here?


By the ID's they use on KP. The Libs keep bringing 'them' up and I have no idea who they are talking about.

Come to think of it, the Libs don't know who they are talking about either. :-D


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> Determining the age of prehistoric fossils is done through the use of science.


I'm still waiting for the scientific proof of how life began and what scientist has created a living cell.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> What no one disagrees we me? I'm surprised!


Have you seen this?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYFHQzLp4fM


----------



## GemsByGranny (Dec 7, 2012)

Lolly12 said:


> Do you really think that outrageous political statements or actions are the norm? You ask this question with a flippant attitude, my ire is definitely up. Why is there political B......t on this forum, you do this to cause trouble and i'm really pissed
> :twisted: It is the same people that do this. You call yourself a "peacegoddess", you are a troublemaker. I am a very, friendly easy person to get along with, but I really have a bitter taste in my mouth right now. You are looking for attention. Grow up


Hey! I live in a political household, I am not political. People can be political if they want. It's OK. But what is not OK is for people to call each other rude names just because they don't like what someone else said.

Lolly12, your ire might be up but let it go. That is a sign of maturity. We call it 'graciousness'. If you are so easy to get along with you will let Peacegoddess have her say. You don't have to follow it. She wanted a laugh, and saw humour in what she did once (at least, that's what I assume). Just walk away from the link. Just walk away.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> What no one disagrees we me? I'm surprised!


Joey, this has nothing much to do with the conversation and was, we suspect, copied from somewhere else. what does it have to do with anything?


----------



## GemsByGranny (Dec 7, 2012)

Lostie said:


> I once considered marching to the town hall and chaining myself to the railings until they told me why gooseberries wouldn't grow in my garden ... does that count?


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Someone said they dated the beams from the Noah's Ark discovery at 6000 years, I agreed. Human life was on earth much longer.


The so-called Noah's ark discovery, depending on which story you read, is either a hoax or a gross misinterpretation of what was found. In any case, it didn't prove to be an ark, and the beams would have had to be much older. Man, at current estimate, has been around for 2.5 million years.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> This is evolution right from the horses mouth. And I agree with it. Yes it was copied from Darwin's Origin of the Species. And no one recognized it. I guess you are not up on evolution!


Nope, haven't read my Darwin lately. That is, however, a paragraph about the adaptation of species as affected by humans.


----------



## GemsByGranny (Dec 7, 2012)

Anna3703 said:


> Oh please, stop it !!! This ia s KNITTERS' FORUM, not a political forum. Do you talk "knitting" at your political rallies??


Some would (oops, sorry, stirring the pot now).


----------



## GemsByGranny (Dec 7, 2012)

Leslie_S said:


> I shall be vigilant in keeping an eye on happenings pertaining to Syria as it could effect my ability to log on to Knitting Paradise (someone could hack and bring down the internet) as I knit an afghan. ;-)


Good one, Leslie!!


----------



## GemsByGranny (Dec 7, 2012)

damemary said:


> I'd have exploded. And they told me to 'Be nice.' And 'be a little lady.' I'm afraid it brought out a bit of the rebel in me.


I didn't fit that era either. I was too sure I was right (a fault? Maybe, but I still think so most of the time, although I try to see the other perspective too). It took 40 years after I left home for my mother to appreciate me for who I am. Now we get on fine, and I'll miss her when she goes.

But hey, I'm enjoying seeing all the comments on this chat page, and watching the sparks fly.


----------



## GemsByGranny (Dec 7, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Very well said. We are all equal in the eyes of God but too many people on the right hate everyone and worst of all they make it a point to try and silence anyone who disagrees with them. Hitler tried that too and so did Stalin. They make me laugh. Sorry folks. We are all wise to you on KP. Go scurry back to D&P and talk to your pseudo Christian friends who think they know everything, even the big blow hard there runs all over KP telling everyone who is and isn't going to hell. What ever happened to "Judge not lest ye be judged"? I guess that doesn't fit into the new gospel according to the Tea Party and one of their headliners Ms Bachmann and her Pray the Gay away crazy husband Marcus. Oh and those holy rollers have a date with the courts for misappropriating campaign funds. I guess stealing has become another virtue of this new religion of the right.


Ooh. A bit rude.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> The so-called Noah's ark discovery, depending on which story you read, is either a hoax or a gross misinterpretation of what was found. In any case, it didn't prove to be an ark, and the beams would have had to be much older. Man, at current estimate, has been around for 2.5 million years.


Interesting. They thought one find was definitely the ark. One church even built a church on the site. Then it was discovered the find was actually a natural structure, rock, not man made. Right size, right shape, etc. The Turkish Government will give you directions to the site. Another find was found to be the site of avery old Christian monastery built there because the monks believe that was the resting place of the ark. Yes, old timber was found there, but it was from the monastery not the ark.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

GemsByGranny said:


> Good one, Leslie!!


I think we are all keeping our eyes and ears on the situation in Syria. It is complicated. What to do.....what not to do? What will the repercussions of our actions, or non actions be? So many questions, which is the correct answer?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No thank you, bless your heart.



joeysomma said:


> Robert Boyle's discoveries


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Wrong again joey. What is a frog before it becomes a frog? Why do human fetuses have gills and some even residual tails that doctors remove at birth? Probably because at one time we had tails and no longer need them and fetuses need gills just like a fish when we are in the uterus. Perhaps, as some believe we originally came form the ocean and then came on to the land. Perhaps we did swing through the trees and now can walk upright on the ground. We know all these things are true because of science. We know none of this from the bible stories. Go to any major natural history museum on the world and you could start at the Smithsonian or the Field Museum in Chicago which is close to your home. Carbon dating joey and other methods used in science are very exacting on how old human remains, animal remains and thousands of other artifacts are. Your Bible neither proves or disproves anything because it is a compilation of stories written by men over several years. You say you believe in science but yet you reject the obvious truth if it contradicts your Bible. That is ignorance joey and nothing more. What are you so afraid of? Do you fear that your beliefs are built on sand? Most Christians would not even agree with you and don't see a conflict with their Bible teaching and science. You are a member of an extreme minority and you can't even see that. Also, your wanting to force your beliefs on the rest of us in government, public education, etc. Teach your beliefs in your own home and place of worship because they do not belong in a public forum that is paid for by other Americans who do not share your beliefs. Your arrogance and ignorance are breath taking.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Well put, Cheeky


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm still waiting for the scientific proof of how life began and what scientist has created a living cell.


I'm not sure why you can't be bothered to look it up for yourself, but here's what the experts have to say:

From evolution.berkeley.edu ("How did life originate?" ) :

"Living things (even ancient organisms like bacteria) are enormously complex. However, all this complexity did not leap fully-formed from the primordial soup. Instead life almost certainly originated in a series of small steps, each building upon the complexity that evolved previously.

Simple organic molecules, similar to the nucleotide shown below, are the building blocks of life and must have been involved in its origin. Experiments suggest that organic molecules could have been synthesized in the atmosphere of early Earth and rained down into the oceans. RNA and DNA molecules  the genetic material for all life  are just long chains of simple nucleotides.

All living things reproduce, copying their genetic material and passing it on to their offspring. Thus, the ability to copy the molecules that encode genetic information is a key step in the origin of life  without it, life could not exist. This ability probably first evolved in the form of an RNA self-replicator  an RNA molecule that could copy itself.

Many biologists hypothesize that this step led to an "RNA world" in which RNA did many jobs, storing genetic information, copying itself, and performing basic metabolic functions. Today, these jobs are performed by many different sorts of molecules (DNA, RNA, and proteins, mostly), but in the RNA world, RNA did it all.

Self-replication opened the door for natural selection. Once a self-replicating molecule formed, some variants of these early replicators would have done a better job of copying themselves than others, producing more "offspring." These super-replicators would have become more common  that is, until one of them was accidentally built in a way that allowed it to be a super-super-replicator  and then, that variant would take over. Through this process of continuous natural selection, small changes in replicating molecules eventually accumulated until a stable, efficient replicating system evolved.

The evolution of a membrane surrounding the genetic material provided two huge advantages: the products of the genetic material could be kept close by and the internal environment of this proto-cell could be different than the external environment. Cell membranes must have been so advantageous that these encased replicators quickly out-competed "naked" replicators. This breakthrough would have given rise to an organism much like a modern bacterium.

Some cells began to evolve modern metabolic processes and out-competed those with older forms of metabolism.
Up until this point, life had probably relied on RNA for most jobs (as described in Step 2 above). But everything changed when some cell or group of cells evolved to use different types of molecules for different functions: DNA (which is more stable than RNA) became the genetic material, proteins (which are often more efficient promoters of chemical reactions than RNA) became responsible for basic metabolic reactions in the cell, and RNA was demoted to the role of messenger, carrying information from the DNA to protein-building centers in the cell. Cells incorporating these innovations would have easily out-competed "old-fashioned" cells with RNA-based metabolisms, hailing the end of the RNA world.

As early as two billion years ago, some cells stopped going their separate ways after replicating and evolved specialized functions. They gave rise to Earth's first lineage of multicellular organisms, such as the 1.2 billion year old fossilized red algae in the photo below."

And from evolutionfaq.com ("Have Scientists Ever Created Life in a Laboratory?" ) :

"As of the time of this writing, no, scientists have never created cellular life in a laboratory from scratch. The technology simply does not yet exist to manipulate molecules with the precision required to create all of the inner workings of a cell, built one atom at a time.

However, many of the important building blocks of life have indeed been created in a laboratory, including amino acids, self-replicating RNA molecules, and self-sealing and self-replicating lipid bubbles (ie, cell membranes) which are profound steps toward the goal of one day creating fully-synthetic life."


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Now there's a source for you.....not.



joeysomma said:


> So who is Robert Boyle? So call me crazy. But you realize the most intelligent people are crazy. Remember Ted K.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

GWPlver said:


> As I read through all the posts, the one thing that stands out to me is that some are disputing others right to their belief system. It doesn't matter what is right or wrong - just what is right and works for you. If you want to believe in God, great, go for it. If you don't, that's great too. Why does it matter to anyone else what one believes?


Isn't this a free country or do they dispute that too?

:XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> What no one disagrees we me? I'm surprised!


No. We're just bored and we are ignoring everything you try to say. Include your manipulative, devious friends....and the sheep too.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I like the fact you say ESTIMATE. still no proof.
> 
> 6000 years ago for Noah's Ark is reasonable. How long ago do you think it should be?


I can't see how any date would be reasonable, quite honestly. Human civilizations have flourished on all the major continents since about 10,000 BC, and at no point were they all wiped out simultaneously as with a world-wide flood.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Does ANYONE think this is important? When do we move on to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?



joeysomma said:


> I like the fact you say ESTIMATE. still no proof.
> 
> 6000 years ago for Noah's Ark is reasonable. How long ago do you think it should be?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

GemsByGranny said:


> I didn't fit that era either. I was too sure I was right (a fault? Maybe, but I still think so most of the time, although I try to see the other perspective too). It took 40 years after I left home for my mother to appreciate me for who I am. Now we get on fine, and I'll miss her when she goes.
> 
> But hey, I'm enjoying seeing all the comments on this chat page, and watching the sparks fly.


It took awhile for my mother and I to appreciate each other too. Fortunately we did before she died. I miss her a great deal.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Bazinga.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Really? If you pay attention to politics then you know who is being investigated these days for campaign fund problems. Those problems mean taking the money that supporters sent in (allegedly taking) and spending it in ways it shouldn't be spent. I am not sure pointing that out is rude.



GemsByGranny said:


> Ooh. A bit rude.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

damemary said:


> Isn't this a free country or do they dispute that too?
> 
> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


GWPlver wrote:
As I read through all the posts, the one thing that stands out to me is that some are disputing others right to their belief system. It doesn't matter what is right or wrong - just what is right and works for you. If you want to believe in God, great, go for it. If you don't, that's great too. Why does it matter to anyone else what one believes?

It doesn't matter, GWPlver, that is exactly what I can't understand. My belief is very simple. There is a God. Period. Why anyone would want to tell me that I am going to some fictional hot hot hot place because of that simple belief is beyond me. 
Time for work! Have a great one! Oh, and God bless. :wink:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's not. It is illegal and public record.



jelun2 said:


> Really? If you pay attention to politics then you know who is being investigated these days for campaign fund problems. Those problems mean taking the money that supporters sent in (allegedly taking) and spending it in ways it shouldn't be spent. I am not sure pointing that out is rude.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm not sure why you can't be bothered to look it up for yourself, but here's what the experts have to say:
> 
> And from evolutionfaq.com ("Have Scientists Ever Created Life in a Laboratory?" ) :
> 
> *"As of the time of this writing, no, scientists have never created cellular life in a laboratory from scratch. *


Yep - still waiting. No proof of the perfect combo of chemicals to bang together to create life. No scientist has ever proven evolution to be fact; just a lot of writings. No proof = evolution is a load of crap. Only God can create life and only God did.

End of story (with scientific proof to back it up).

BTW susan; how to you claim to be a Catholic yet believe in Evolution? How do you reconcile that I wonder.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I like the fact you say ESTIMATE. still no proof.
> 
> 6000 years ago for Noah's Ark is reasonable. How long ago do you think it should be?


You never say what you would think of as proof. When you are talking about millions of years, any dating will be within a number of years. It would be impossible to say something happened on January 2, millions of years ago, at 1:15 in the afternoon. You are showing your ignorance about how science works.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Yep - still waiting. No proof of the perfect combo of chemicals to bang together to create life. No scientist has ever proven evolution to be fact; just a lot of writings. No proof = evolution is a load of crap. Only God can create life and only God did.
> 
> End of story (with scientific proof to back it up).
> 
> BTW susan; how to you claim to be a Catholic yet believe in Evolution? How do you reconcile that I wonder.


KPG
blessed are those who are simple minded.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The same way the Pope does, I figure.



knitpresentgifts said:


> Yep - still waiting. No proof of the perfect combo of chemicals to bang together to create life. No scientist has ever proven evolution to be fact; just a lot of writings. No proof = evolution is a load of crap. Only God can create life and only God did.
> 
> End of story (with scientific proof to back it up).
> 
> BTW susan; how to you claim to be a Catholic yet believe in Evolution? How do you reconcile that I wonder.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> KPG
> blessed are those who are simple minded.


for they are easy to confuse. Welcome to the GOP.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

"Evolution is a load of crap" (KPG)

I didn't think it possible, but you have outdone yourself. If it weren't so tragic I'd be laughing myself sick.


----------



## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> joey keeps repeating herself. I've seen the Boyle story before.
> She is totally out of gas and running on fumes. Maybe it is old age she keeps telling us about her kids and their travels abroad and her travels along with repeating over and over again "her proof" trying hopelessly to defend her beliefs. Maybe, that's your problem joey, the world has moved along and you are years and years behind and not catching up. I'm trying to tell you in a nice way you are really boring and nobody cares and you are making a lot of people sick. Who does that? A crazy person?


I care, Joey. And you are not making me sick. So now it's OK to attack someone because of their age? Nice going.


----------



## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

damemary said:


> Does ANYONE think this is important? When do we move on to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?


If you want this thread to stop, why do you keep responding to it? Can you just let it go quietly into that good night?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> BTW susan; how to you claim to be a Catholic yet believe in Evolution? How do you reconcile that I wonder.


Guess the great I Am needs a crash course in Catholic theology...
Catholics see no contradiction between God and evolution.

"According to Eugenie Scott, Director of the US National Center for Science Education: Theistic evolutionism is the official position of the Catholic church. In 1996, Pope John Paul II reiterated the Catholic TE position, according to which God created, evolution occurred, human beings may indeed have been descended from more primitive forms, and the Hand of God was required for the production of the human soul."


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Then in 1996 a man, Pope John Paul II, decided that the Biblical account of Creation was wrong. And evolution trumps the Word of God.
> God does not need help from evolution. He can speak and it happens.


Not knocking the Pope, are you Joey?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's not quiet.



RachelL said:


> If you want this thread to stop, why do you keep responding to it? Can you just let it go quietly into that good night?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Guess the great I Am needs a crash course in Catholic theology...
> Catholics see no contradiction between God and evolution.
> 
> "According to Eugenie Scott, Director of the US National Center for Science Education: Theistic evolutionism is the official position of the Catholic church. In 1996, Pope John Paul II reiterated the Catholic TE position, according to which God created, evolution occurred, human beings may indeed have been descended from more primitive forms, and the Hand of God was required for the production of the human soul."


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You know what else they say happens.



joeysomma said:


> Then in 1996 a man, Pope John Paul II, decided that the Biblical account of Creation was wrong. And evolution trumps the Word of God.
> God does not need help from evolution. He can speak and it happens.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Guess the great I Am needs a crash course in Catholic theology...
> Catholics see no contradiction between God and evolution.
> 
> "According to Eugenie Scott, Director of the US National Center for Science Education: Theistic evolutionism is the official position of the Catholic church. In 1996, Pope John Paul II reiterated the Catholic TE position, according to which God created, evolution occurred, human beings may indeed have been descended from more primitive forms, and the Hand of God was required for the production of the human soul."


I attended a convent school for all my schooling and we were taught evolution as fact. We traced the ascent of man right from the beginnings and discussed possible causes as to why man's brain developed. We had great discussions with the nuns as to whether the increased brainsize led to the development of tools or whether the development of tools led to an increased brainsize. Now there is evidene to uggest that it was an increased intake of protein that led to increased brain decelopment. The protein came mainly from eating marine creatures along the shallow shore line.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> KPG
> blessed are those who are simple minded.


Then you must be overwhelmed with blessings. Good for you.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

RachelL said:


> I care, Joey. And you are not making me sick. So now it's OK to attack someone because of their age? Nice going.


Rachel, as long as you are a conservative, anything is fair game to attack. Illness, age, way of life, what you believe, etc. it matters not. It's all part of their idea of an intelligent discussion.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Because we want everyone to have the joy and gift of eternal life that we have. I want everyone to know that God has taken care of me in hard times. He has never left me or forsaken. Life is so very hard and He has helped me thru it. I couldn't have made it without His strength . We probably don't know how to reach everyone but I will try as long as I have breath . Someone gave His life for our sins. I just think it is important to tell anyone who may need His help. It is out of love that we do it. It doesn't benefit me to tell you. You just get mad and call me names so why should I tell you just to get called names? Not you but everyone that doesn't believe. We have all been in the same boat at one time. I just have a Savior that I love and want to share HIm with everyone. Sorry if I don't do it in the right way. I do mean well. I agree with you it is everyone's own free will to pick or chose who they serve. If I saw someone drowning I would reach out to help them out of the water . Same thing as helping someone with their spiritual life.


Country Bumpkins - I believe you mean everything you say, That is why, even though we differ in our opinions I call you my friend. I believe you are absolutely honest in your beliefs and I admire you for it. I also believe that others are not as true to their beliefs as you are . You live your life as a Christian -- I don't see nastiness, or unkindness in your posts. I see 'do unto others as ye would have them do unto you" My Grandmother lived the way you do -- and I believed in her.

I just wish all "Christians" were even close to what you represent to me. If that were the case I would find it easier to accept some of the non Christian things that are 
accepted and approved of from those who profess to be true Christians.
My grandmother- never said an unkind word about anyone. She believed with her whole being -- I never heard a person Christian or non Christian say an unkind thing about her. She lived it.

I try to live by her beliefs even though I do not believe in many things that are quoted as God's Truth by those who prefer to think the worst instead of the best of all people. -- I don't think she would have either. I believe in God -- but a God who does not 
expect Christians to Judge - and I honestly believe you are good. I value you as a friend.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> How do you like my singing?


Country Bumpkins
acceptable.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> Doesn't she though. I wonder if she even understands what she copied.


GWPIver
the answer is no. A definite no.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Nope - not even close. Another thing you don't understand about Christians, I guess.


KPG
we understand well about the mainstream Christians, it is the once who inflict so much damage to it, we do not understand.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm still waiting for the scientific proof of how life began and what scientist has created a living cell.


KPG
getting all tattered again.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

GemsByGranny said:


> Hey! I live in a political household, I am not political. People can be political if they want. It's OK. But what is not OK is for people to call each other rude names just because they don't like what someone else said.
> 
> Lolly12, your ire might be up but let it go. That is a sign of maturity. We call it 'graciousness'. If you are so easy to get along with you will let Peacegoddess have her say. You don't have to follow it. She wanted a laugh, and saw humour in what she did once (at least, that's what I assume). Just walk away from the link. Just walk away.


GemsByGranny
wonderful response. Lolly12 speaks of putting out the fire by throwing Oil on it. Hope she finds a safe exit. Quite a language she speaks.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Hardly apt.



soloweygirl said:


> Then you must be overwhelmed with blessings. Good for you.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Then in 1996 a man, Pope John Paul II, decided that the Biblical account of Creation was wrong. And evolution trumps the Word of God.
> God does not need help from evolution. He can speak and it happens.


joeysomma
Your Preacher is always right and a Pope you question? W O W!
Go speak to God and ask for food for the millions of starving children. You folks seem to have a direct line, put it to good use PLEASE.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> "Evolution is a load of crap" (KPG)
> 
> I didn't think it possible, but you have outdone yourself. If it weren't so tragic I'd be laughing myself sick.


aw9358
amazing isn't it, the stuff these mindless are coming up with.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Guess the great I Am needs a crash course in Catholic theology...
> Catholics see no contradiction between God and evolution.
> 
> "According to Eugenie Scott, Director of the US National Center for Science Education: Theistic evolutionism is the official position of the Catholic church. In 1996, Pope John Paul II reiterated the Catholic TE position, according to which God created, evolution occurred, human beings may indeed have been descended from more primitive forms, and the Hand of God was required for the production of the human soul."


susanmos2000
oh dear, asking her who does not even understand her own branch of Religion to get into others? That would be unbearable overload of information gathering. What we do know from her is that she does not even understand the function of Heart, Soul and Mind.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

damemary said:


> for they are easy to confuse. Welcome to the GOP.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> susanmos2000
> oh dear, asking her who does not even understand her own branch of Religion to get into others? That would be unbearable overload of information gathering. What we do know from her is that she does not even understand the function of Heart, Soul and Mind.


So true, Huck, and unfortunate in the extreme. Nothing would help KPG more than exploring the Eastern religions with their emphasis on peace, brotherhood, and "do no harm". Perhaps her cronies will take up a collection to send her on an Buddhist retreat--an extended period of silent prayer and meditation would do her a world of good.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> So true, Huck, and unfortunate in the extreme. Nothing would help KPG more than exploring the Eastern religions with their emphasis on peace, brotherhood, and "do no harm". Perhaps her cronies will take up a collection to send her on an Buddhist retreat--an extended period of silent prayer and meditation would do her a world of good.


If they were to explore anything but their right-wing sources, they would do themselves a world of good.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> So true, Huck, and unfortunate in the extreme. Nothing would help KPG more than exploring the Eastern religions with their emphasis on peace, brotherhood, and "do no harm". Perhaps her cronies will take up a collection to send her on an Buddhist retreat--an extended period of silent prayer and meditation would do her a world of good.


susanmos2000
excellent suggestion. Meditation is a wonderful healer of the mind. However she is too full of fear to venture into such an undertaking.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> susanmos2000
> excellent suggestion. Meditation is a wonderful healer of the mind. However she is too full of fear to venture into such an undertaking.


Can't improve on Mary McCarthy's words to describe the religion of such folks--
"a sour, baleful doctrine in which old hates and rancors [have] been stewing for generations, with ignorance proudly stirring the pot."


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Can't improve on Mary McCarthy's words to describe the religion of such folks--
> "a sour, baleful doctrine in which old hates and rancors [have] been stewing for generations, with ignorance proudly stirring the pot."


Ooh, I like this line.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Ooh, I like this line.


Isn't that a gem? McCarthy was one heck of a writer.


----------



## seamer45 (Jan 18, 2011)

I was 8 months pregnant a month before a presidential election. The candidate I did not support was coming to our very small New Hampshire town to visit. I put on my brightest maroon top, pasted my candidates bumpersticker across my belly and went out to his location. He nearly had a heart attack. But it was fun.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

RachelL said:


> I care, Joey. And you are not making me sick. So now it's OK to attack someone because of their age? Nice going.


Everything Cheeks posts is rude and spiteful. Ignore her posts Rachel, most do.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Can't improve on Mary McCarthy's words to describe the religion of such folks--
> "a sour, baleful doctrine in which old hates and rancors [have] been stewing for generations, with ignorance proudly stirring the pot."


susanmos2000
thank you. Now there is a brilliant woman.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Everything Cheeks posts is rude and spiteful. Ignore her posts Rachel, most do.


KPG
you want to learn you just said. Lots to learn from Cheeky but be warned it will take some free thinking to understand it. That "free" part is what will be hang-up for you I am sure.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Then in 1996 a man, Pope John Paul II, decided that the Biblical account of Creation was wrong. And evolution trumps the Word of God.
> God does not need help from evolution. He can speak and it happens.


Here's the truth, plain and simple.

The greatest scientist ever is God. You want prove, you are it! God is _the_ only person who took dust and created something beautiful with it and breathed life into it. No scientist can replicate, nor will ever do what God did.

If you want to read his research and his writings and read the proof, the purpose, the reasons and the proclamations of what is to come, google The Bible for a digital copy. Rent a movie of The Bible if you learn by pictures. If you gain knowledge by the written word, pick up a printed copy of The Bible. You want to live out the research and see the future? Accept what the greatest scientist ever taught, accept Him as your Saviour, confess your sins and follow Him.

Got questions? Seek and you'll receive answers. Want proof; look at yourself, you are His creation and part of His experiment. You are loved by God who died for You.

You are living proof, created by Him; what more proof do you need.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

alcameron said:


> If they were to explore anything but their right-wing sources, they would do themselves a world of good.


I am not so sure of that. I think they would possibly die of shock. 
If I see one more person write that these minimum wage jobs were not meant to support a family I may just scream. 
(insert letters I cannot use here) of course the jobs were not meant ot sustain anyone but the rich so and so's lives who own the company. That self righteous Green person who own Hobby Lobby and that Christian Book Company who doesn't want women to have access to medications that they want and need had made $4.5 BILLION dollars in the past 40 years. He loves to tell the story about starting out with a $600. loan... he neglects to include that all of those folks working for minimum wage made him a multi billionaire. 
I am not sure about the rest of his family, they are not as rich as he, I am pretty sure. 
As Bill Gates and Steve Jobs demonstrated, it is not necessary to pay workers such low wages that they need for us to feed and house them in order to make billions of dollars.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Then in 1996 a man, Pope John Paul II, decided that the Biblical account of Creation was wrong. And evolution trumps the Word of God.
> God does not need help from evolution. He can speak and it happens.


Susan doesn't know or at least explain that the Catholic's position demands God is the Creator. God is also the creator of evolution! God is required to explain man's origin. Science cannot conflict with faith. TE may co-exist with God. God didn't need evolution to create it or anything.

If I've misinterpreted the Catholic position on TE only (not evolution that susan was in agreement with AND the type of evolution I therefore, asked how she reconciled with her Catholic Faith), I'm sure a practicing and knowledgeable Catholic will correct my statements. I hope they will if required. What I've written is how I understand their position.

Otherwise, susan again, didn't compare apples to apples and completely twisted my question to her.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> Then you must be overwhelmed with blessings. Good for you.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: She should take all her exorbitant blessings and spend her money to feed all the starving children at her door that she turns away.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> So true, Huck, and unfortunate in the extreme. Nothing would help KPG more than exploring the Eastern religions with their emphasis on peace, brotherhood, and "do no harm". Perhaps her cronies will take up a collection to send her on an Buddhist retreat--an extended period of silent prayer and meditation would do her a world of good.


Do you know how many Eastern countries I've visited, how many Monasteries, Churches, JW Temples, Jewish, Hindu, Mormon, Buddhist or Shinto Shrines, or Muslim mosques or temples I've visited, participated in or studied the religion's tenets? To how many people I've taught, lead courses or participated in discussions?

BTW; I'm blessed enough to travel on my own funds and do not accept nor require others to provide for me.

You are a fool.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Susan doesn't know or at least explain that the Catholic's position demands God is the Creator. God is also the creator of evolution! God is required to explain man's origin. Science cannot conflict with faith. TE may co-exist with God. God didn't need evolution to create it or anything.
> 
> If I've misinterpreted the Catholic position on TE only (not evolution that susan was in agreement with AND the type of evolution I therefore, asked how she reconciled with her Catholic Faith), I'm sure a practicing and knowledgeable Catholic will correct my statements. I hope they will if required. What I've written is how I understand their position.
> 
> Otherwise, susan again, didn't compare apples to apples and completely twisted my question to her.


Don't presume to speak for me, KPG. You're a disgrace.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Do you know how many Eastern countries I've visited, how many Monasteries, Churches, JS Temples, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist or Shinto Shrines, or Muslim mosques or temples I've visited, participated in or studied the religion's tenets? To how many people I've preached, taught, lead courses or discussions?
> 
> BTW; I'm blessed enough to travel on my own funds and do not accept nor require others to provide for me.
> 
> You are a fool.


KPG - Your insistence that you are the one to show the rest of us the only right way to live our lives is egotistical and condescending. I, too, have preached in our church. So what? How lovely that you are rich enough to travel extensively. Not everyone is that fortunate. I think you believe in a mythology which doesn't work for many people, and I'd appreciate it if you would keep it to yourself.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Don't presume to speak for me, KPG. You're a disgrace.


Confess to your priest your sins and stop throwing stones at me.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Don't presume to speak for me, KPG. You're a disgrace.


And is she telling us she's a minister? Behavior is certainly inappropriate for a person of the cloth! And that's putting it mildly!

Humble, too.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Confess to your priest your sins and stop throwing stones at me.


You began this, KPG, by taunting me about my terminally-ill brother when I dared to ask other KP members for advice, good wishes, and prayers. I can't imagine what sort of demon lives inside you, but it appears to be eating you alive.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> KPG - Your insistence that you are the one to show the rest of us the only right way to live our lives is egotistical and condescending. I, too, have preached in our church. So what? How lovely that you are rich enough to travel extensively. Not everyone is that fortunate. I think you believe in a mythology which doesn't work for many people, and I'd appreciate it if you would keep it to yourself.


Do you have a comprehension problem? Susan told me what I needed to understand what I speak of. Tell her to get a life. I didn't tell you how to live your life. I explained my beliefs and you explained yours. I asked you multiple times of proof of the topic we discussed which you never provided. Our conversation ended.

Now you interrupt someone insulting me and you do likewise.

I didn't bring up money for traveling. Susan presumed what I needed for education and funds. She is a complete fool to characterize me. Perhaps you enjoy her mythology and insulting others. So respond to her, stop insulting me and ignore me.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Do you have a comprehension problem? Susan told me what I needed to understand what I speak of. Tell her to get a life. I didn't tell you how to live your life. I explained my beliefs and you explained yours. I asked you multiple times of proof which you never provided. Our conversation ended.
> 
> Now you interrupt someone insulting me and you do likewise.
> 
> I didn't bring up money for traveling. Susan presumed what I needed for education and funds. She is a complete fool to characterize me. Perhaps you enjoy her mythology and insulting others. So respond to her, stop insulting me and ignore me.


You absolutely did tell me how to live my life. You think I should buy into your religious beliefs and that your mythology is the only way to believe. You also said that you travel on your own dime, which implies, since you say you have travelled extensively, that you have the money to do that. And, you presume to speak to what Catholics believe, when you aren't one and those who are have told you what their education in their own church has been. You deny what they say and presume to tell them what their own religion teaches.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Do you have a comprehension problem? Susan told me what I needed to understand what I speak of. Tell her to get a life. I didn't tell you how to live your life. I explained my beliefs and you explained yours. I asked you multiple times of proof which you never provided. Our conversation ended.
> 
> Now you interrupt someone insulting me and you do likewise.
> 
> I didn't bring up money for traveling. Susan presumed what I needed for education and funds. She is a complete fool to characterize me. Perhaps you enjoy her mythology and insulting others. So respond to her, stop insulting me and ignore me.


Furthermore, you have never told me what you would consider proof for anything. You just ignore that.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> You began this, KPG, by taunting me about my terminally-ill brother when I dared to ask other KP members for advice, good wishes, and prayers. I can't imagine what sort of demon lives inside you, but it appears to be eating you alive.


I began nothing. From day you you have defamed my character, my name, my faith and every word I post.

I never taunted you regarding your brother. You asked me if I was speaking of your ill brother when I asked you a question about your religious beliefs in an attempt to vilify my words.

Try as you may, you cannot put words in my mouth.

One would think you would have better things to do as an adult but to insult and berate others.

Perhaps one day you'll grow up. Meanwhile leave me alone as you stated you would multiple times.

I choose joy!


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

seamer45 said:


> I was 8 months pregnant a month before a presidential election. The candidate I did not support was coming to our very small New Hampshire town to visit. I put on my brightest maroon top, pasted my candidates bumpersticker across my belly and went out to his location. He nearly had a heart attack. But it was fun.


seamer45
Now that is original. Thank you for sharing.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> You absolutely did tell me how to live my life. You think I should buy into your religious beliefs and that your mythology is the only way to believe. You also said that you travel on your own dime, which implies, since you say you have travelled extensively, that you have the money to do that. And, you presume to speak to what Catholics believe, when you aren't one and those who are have told you what their education in their own church has been. You deny what they say and presume to tell them what their own religion teaches.


You DO have a comprehension problem. I cannot help you with that.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You DO have a comprehension problem. I cannot help you with that.


Don't need your help and wouldn't take it if offered.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I began nothing. From day you you have defamed my character, my name, my faith and every word I post.
> 
> I never taunted you regarding your brother. You asked me if I was speaking of your ill brother when I asked you a question about your religious beliefs in an attempt to vilify my words.
> 
> ...


knitpresentgifts
I think it is time for you to go into analysis. You accuse everyone of everything you always have done and continue to do so. You have such a need to read back what any of us have written, please, take some time and read what you wrote. Lots of surprises for you in store and lots of time needed to repent.

Remember
4 innocent American Children murdered by hateful Americans unlike the slayings in Benghazi where foreign Enemies killed our Men.

So it may be 50 years now, it will be our ugly History forever.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I didn't bring up money for traveling. Susan presumed what I needed for education and funds. She is a complete fool to characterize me. Perhaps you enjoy her mythology and insulting others. So respond to her, stop insulting me and ignore me.


After reading this I don't believe a word you say about your travels through the Eastern world and all the Buddhist shrines you claim to have visited. Buddhist monks focus on liberating their mind to the exclusion of all else--the community is expected to provide for their needs. A Buddhist retreat, whether to a monastery or a mountain top, traditionally begins by soliciting the necessary funds from family members and friends--not because they have to, but because people need to give, and because the act of begging is considered a meditation on the ego.

That's twice today you've shot your mouth off about a religion you know nothing about. Care to try one last time?


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> You began this, KPG, by taunting me about my terminally-ill brother when I dared to ask other KP members for advice, good wishes, and prayers. I can't imagine what sort of demon lives inside you, but it appears to be eating you alive.


susanmos2000
she could not have been any uglier but let's wait, she has a way to top herself in that department.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> susanmos2000
> she could not have been any uglier but let's wait, she has a way to top herself in that department.


Yes, she does. That monumental stack of Bibles she perches on appears far from steady--I think someone's taken one too many nosedives to the carpet.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Here's the truth, plain and simple.
> 
> The greatest scientist ever is God. You want prove, you are it! God is _the_ only person who took dust and created something beautiful with it and breathed life into it. No scientist can replicate, nor will ever do what God did.
> 
> ...


KPG
your Pulpit reeks of arrogance. Why can't you keep some of this stuff to yourself? Nobody around you listening and you are eager to find an audience? Go to D&P to spread your nonsense. God died for us? I thought is was Jesus. Oh does that have to do with the Trinity? Three happy fellows. God wrote books on Science and did research? Why do you folks keep attacking Science if your God was the greatest Scientist ever? If he created us he sure made an enormous mess of it. Holy Cow you folks are weird. 
God bless you.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> After reading this I don't believe a word you say about your travels through the Eastern world and all the Buddhist shrines you claim to have visited. Buddhist monks focus on liberating their mind to the exclusion of all else--the community is expected to provide for their needs. A Buddhist retreat, whether to a monastery or a mountain top, traditionally begins by soliciting the necessary funds from family members and friends--not because they have to, but because people need to give, and because the act of begging is considered a meditation on the ego.
> 
> That's twice today you've shot your mouth off about a religion you know nothing about. Care to try one last time?


OK, braggart - tell me which places I've visited since you know so much about me. BTW: I didn't only mention Buddhist shrines. So go ahead, I'm waiting. List every single place of religious intent I've visited.

When you've completed that list, then tell me how many monks I've met and spoken to and in which country or location.

YOU shot your mouth off about BUDDHISTS yet you claim you are a Catholic. So stop talking about a religion you know nothing about. I posted my belief about the Catholic TE beliefs and even requested if I were incorrect for a Catholic person of faith to correct me. You didn't correct me and you're a Catholic person of faith, so I'll assume what I posted was the TRUTH.

Since you stated you are a Catholic, explain the Theists Evolution Catholic belief and how its compares and contrasts to biological Evolution in regards to creation that you bragged you know so much about and agree with.

... or do you EVEN KNOW THE DIFFERENCE?

When you are done, tell me my age, eye color, hair color, gender, race, religion, career path, height and name since you cannot shut your mouth and claim to know everything about me.

Of course, you'll not answer because your intention is to defame and insult anyone and everyone you hate. Your words are evil, worthless and spoken for the sole purpose to incite and flame others. When you are challenged and faced with the truth to your lies, you run. That is fear.

Those are a few things you certainly seem to do well.

If I feel charitable, I'll post pictures of those places of worship I visited that you 'guess' correctly since you know nothing about me which you blab on about.

RU and others are correct, responding to you _is_ a complete waste of my knowledge and time.

One final comment: after you taunted me about your brother, I posted a beautiful graphic and told you prayers were being said. If that wasn't good enough for you, I'm sorry. Considering the way you have treated me since I joined KP, that is all I was capable to give you.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I was shocked when I read this! I do not want to believe what I read. Since I am not Catholic, maybe someone can clarify.
> 
> No joke this time: Is the pope Catholic?
> 
> Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/09/is-pope-francis-even-catholic/#TkUwdEBK3E5aUb7z.99


I'm not even close to Catholic, but I think this pope will do more to bring people back to the Catholic Church than any pope has in hundreds of years. He truly seems to understand the basic tenets of Christianity.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> After reading this I don't believe a word you say about your travels through the Eastern world and all the Buddhist shrines you claim to have visited. Buddhist monks focus on liberating their mind to the exclusion of all else--the community is expected to provide for their needs. A Buddhist retreat, whether to a monastery or a mountain top, traditionally begins by soliciting the necessary funds from family members and friends--not because they have to, but because people need to give, and because the act of begging is considered a meditation on the ego.
> 
> That's twice today you've shot your mouth off about a religion you know nothing about. Care to try one last time?


susanmos2000
your knowledge is fabulous. I thank you. Somebody sure messed up royally when he created her. She is trying her best to destroy every little bit of Faith some of us had left. I have never ever encountered someone achieving exactly the opposite of what they set out to do. Talk about making Enemies. She is a genius doing so. Boy would she make an interesting Missionary.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> I was shocked when I read this! I do not want to believe what I read. Since I am not Catholic, maybe someone can clarify.
> 
> No joke this time: Is the pope Catholic?
> 
> Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/09/is-pope-francis-even-catholic/#TkUwdEBK3E5aUb7z.99


Joey - don't you get it? The Pope is Greek. According to pardoquilts, Christianity is only mythology which we all know began in Greece. Correct? Please correct me if I wrong about where mythology originated.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> I'm not even close to Catholic, but I think this pope will do more to bring people back to the Catholic Church than any pope has in hundreds of years. He truly seems to understand the basic tenets of Christianity.


pardoquilts
exactly how I see him. At least he seems to be trying to be humane and fair. Time will tell. Wonder how he got to be Pope being so opposite the previous one. So far I like him very much even so I do not belong to his Faith.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Joey - don't you get it? The Pope is Greek. According to pardoquilts, Christianity is only mythology which we all know began in Greece. Correct? Please correct me if I wrong about where mythology originated.


KPG
lots of mythology is in your head.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> OK, braggart - tell me which places I've visited since you know so much about me. BTW: I didn't only mention Buddhist shrines. So go ahead, I'm waiting. List every single place of religious intent I've visited.
> 
> When you've completed that list, then tell me how many monks I've met and spoken to and in which country or location.
> 
> ...


KPG
what in the dickens have you ingested today? You are on the edge of something. Get a hold of yourself.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> I was shocked when I read this! I do not want to believe what I read. Since I am not Catholic, maybe someone can clarify.
> 
> No joke this time: Is the pope Catholic?
> 
> Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/09/is-pope-francis-even-catholic/#TkUwdEBK3E5aUb7z.99


joeysomma
are you serious? Kidding, right?
Now you indeed need blessings.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> YOU shot your mouth off about BUDDHISTS yet you claim you are a Catholic. So stop talking about a religion you know nothing about.


I may not be Buddhist, but my SIL and her family ARE. With his wife's encouragement my brother undertook a ten-day retreat in a Buddhist monastery recently, and the peace and solace he found there was a great comfort to him.


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## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

The most outrageous action is to have rescued a mistreated animal from some very abusive people. I put myself in great danger and still fear giving details.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> OK, braggart - tell me which places I've visited since you know so much about me. BTW: I didn't only mention Buddhist shrines. So go ahead, I'm waiting. List every single place of religious intent I've visited.
> 
> When you've completed that list, then tell me how many monks I've met and spoken to and in which country or location.
> 
> ...


KPG
thank you for verifying that you know something about your Faith only and nothing about any other. It has been clear to us but you just verified it.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Joey - don't you get it? The Pope is Greek. According to pardoquilts, Christianity is only mythology which we all know began in Greece. Correct? Please correct me if I wrong about where mythology originated.


When I was in the 9th grade I had a class in world mythology. Virtually every tribal group in the world has a mythology. They all had stories of a flood or ice or some catastrophe. There are many similarities among the myths of the world, including Christianity. Mythology didn't begin in Greece - the goddess figures found in many parts of the world are from civilizations far older than ancient Greece. So no, you aren't correct.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I may not be Buddhist, but my SIL and her family ARE. With his wife's encouragement my brother undertook a ten-day retreat in a Buddhist monastery recently, and the peace and solace he found there was a great comfort to him.


I'm waiting to hear what you brag you know about me. I didn't ask you what you know about being a Buddhist.

I'm waiting ... will you answer or cut and run like all bullies do after a strike?


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Joey - don't you get it? The Pope is Greek. According to pardoquilts, Christianity is only mythology which we all know began in Greece. Correct? Please correct me if I wrong about where mythology originated.


KPG
sending blessings, you are in dire need of them.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm waiting to hear what you brag you know about me. I didn't ask you what you know about being a Buddhist.
> 
> I'm waiting ...


Then you'll be waiting until Hell freezes over. You literally turn my stomach, KPG.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm waiting to hear what you brag you know about me. I didn't ask you what you know about being a Buddhist.
> 
> I'm waiting ... will you answer or cut and run?


KPG
KPG you are unique, very unique, superbly unique, weirdly unique, uniquer than unique. What can I say.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> So true, Huck, and unfortunate in the extreme. Nothing would help KPG more than exploring the Eastern religions with their emphasis on peace, brotherhood, and "do no harm". Perhaps her cronies will take up a collection to send her on an Buddhist retreat--an extended period of silent prayer and meditation would do her a world of good.


She could never keep her mouth shut, Susan and she would tell the monks how they have got it all wrong.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Then you'll be waiting until Hell freezes over. You literally turn my stomach, KPG.


As I thought. A bully, a liar and a fool.

Have a good evening.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> She could never keep her mouth shut, Susan and she would tell the monks how they have got it all wrong.


Cheeky Blighter
I am sure you are right about that too. Her problems will start right at the door of the Temple I am very sure.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> KPG
> KPG you are unique, very unique, superbly unique, weirdly unique, uniquer than unique. What can I say.


Nothing. Since you cannot modify the word unique in the way you attempted to do.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> As I thought. A bully, a liar and a fool.
> 
> Have a good evening.


KPG
every time you do not get your way you go to name calling. Bully you are.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Nothing. BTW: nothing can modify the word unique.


KPG
I did not attempt, I did. May find it in the next Websters. Just in case you have missed that as well, new Words are added regularly.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> KPG
> I did not attempt, I did. May find it in the next Websters. Just in case you have missed that as well, new Words are added regularly.


Learn something. You failed. You cannot modify the word 'unique' in the way you attempted to do.

Unique is not a new word, it dates back to the 17th century I would bet, and you do not understand how to properly modify it.

(Perhaps you have no idea what a modifier is either. Hence, why you failed. Ask your whippersnapper to explain your failure to you.)


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> I'm not even close to Catholic, but I think this pope will do more to bring people back to the Catholic Church than any pope has in hundreds of years. He truly seems to understand the basic tenets of Christianity.


Joey is so full of it and I don't mean grace. I was raised a Catholic and unless she was she should not pretend she knows anything about the Catholic church and her link was absolutely offensive to Catholics. Catholics don't believe what you do, Joey. Joey is so far gone all she puts out here is a load of c--p and what is saddest of all, nobody cares and she is just making a fool of herself but the just keeps showing up everyday. I can only imagine this is her way of trying to save souls by boring us all to tears. At least she doesn't believe she is God like crazy Cheryl does.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> susanmos2000
> your knowledge is fabulous. I thank you. Somebody sure messed up royally when he created her. She is trying her best to destroy every little bit of Faith some of us had left. I have never ever encountered someone achieving exactly the opposite of what they set out to do. Talk about making Enemies. She is a genius doing so. Boy would she make an interesting Missionary.


No, Cheryl would have been involved in the inquisition torturing people. Just her being here is nauseating. Now she has shown her ignorance of Judaism, Catholicism and Buddhism. I wonder how she will embarrass herself next?


----------



## Queenmum (Dec 3, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I was shocked when I read this! I do not want to believe what I read. Since I am not Catholic, maybe someone can clarify.
> 
> No joke this time: Is the pope Catholic?
> 
> Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/09/is-pope-francis-even-catholic/#TkUwdEBK3E5aUb7z.99


Joeysomma, your instincts are correct. WND is a terrible source of accurate information, and you do well not to accept their take on anything without questioning it critically.


----------



## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

omnivore2 said:


> The most outrageous action is to have rescued a mistreated animal from some very abusive people. I put myself in great danger and still fear giving details.


Hurray!
Wow. That was very courageous. 
The direct answers to the original question in this thread are real gems. I love reading them.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Queenmum said:


> Joeysomma, your instincts are correct. WND is a terrible source of accurate information, and you do well not to accept their take on anything without questioning it critically.


Queenmum
Joeysomma
I think you two need to read again what was written. Goodness gracious, it was never really questioned if he is a Catholic, darn, what is the matter with you and you want us to believe that you understand the Bible when you do not even understand plain English?


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

pardoquilts said:


> When I was in the 9th grade I had a class in world mythology. Virtually every tribal group in the world has a mythology. They all had stories of a flood or ice or some catastrophe. There are many similarities among the myths of the world, including Christianity. Mythology didn't begin in Greece - the goddess figures found in many parts of the world are from civilizations far older than ancient Greece. So no, you aren't correct.


Thanks pardoquuilts, for pointing that out. One recurring myth that is very well known is that of god the father and god the son And the father offering his son as a sacrifice for man's sin so this Jewish man was just one in a long line of myths that people have believed down through history. For them nothing is important before Jesus came along and he may have been a good man but he lived and died a Jew and beyond that who knows. I guess if believing in trying to live by the example of a good man's life helps people that is a good thing but it is obvious the right wing nuts certainly haven't learned anything good at all. Pope Francis on the other hand is trying to correct the course of the Catholic church and wants Catholics to live their lives as Jesus lived his.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Queenmum said:


> Joeysomma, your instincts are correct. WND is a terrible source of accurate information, and you do well not to accept their take on anything without questioning it critically.


Queenmum, joey believes the article is true she isn't questioning it's accuracy, she believes that c--p.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

God did not offer His Son as a sacrifice. Jesus gave up His Life willingly. The Power to Lay It Down - John 10:17-18

"The Father loves me because I give my life. I give my life so that I can get it back again. No person takes my life away from me. I give my own life freely. I have the right to give my life. And I have the right to get it back again. This is what the Father told me." (ERV) Full Text


Jesus didn't just die; he died with power and authority. His life wasn't taken from him; he laid it down willingly to die for our sins. His crucifixion was an apparent defeat for him, but turned into a lasting defeat for the evil one who sought to use his death to win a victory over God. No one could take Jesus' life. He gave it willingly to save us and purchase us from death. The Cross is God's power demonstrated in humanity's worst forum. It is our glory!


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> No, Cheryl would have been involved in the inquisition torturing people. Just her being here is nauseating. Now she has shown her ignorance of Judaism, Catholicism and Buddhism. I wonder how she will embarrass herself next?


Cheeky Blighter
has she not shown all along that every subject that has been discussed she flunked? Can you imagine what it would be like to have her as a Mother? Talk about Hell on Earth. Prison would be freedom compared to being under the same roof with her.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I love your avatar, Granny. A Russian blue who allows you to knit in his presence?



GemsByGranny said:


> I didn't fit that era either. I was too sure I was right (a fault? Maybe, but I still think so most of the time, although I try to see the other perspective too). It took 40 years after I left home for my mother to appreciate me for who I am. Now we get on fine, and I'll miss her when she goes.
> 
> But hey, I'm enjoying seeing all the comments on this chat page, and watching the sparks fly.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Fascinating Susan. Thanks for sharing.



susanmos2000 said:


> I'm not sure why you can't be bothered to look it up for yourself, but here's what the experts have to say:
> 
> From evolution.berkeley.edu ("How did life originate?" ) :
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh for a time machine. I would give them all a one way ticket.



pardoquilts said:


> You never say what you would think of as proof. When you are talking about millions of years, any dating will be within a number of years. It would be impossible to say something happened on January 2, millions of years ago, at 1:15 in the afternoon. You are showing your ignorance about how science works.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

God will get you for that.



susanmos2000 said:


> Not knocking the Pope, are you Joey?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> So true, Huck, and unfortunate in the extreme. Nothing would help KPG more than exploring the Eastern religions with their emphasis on peace, brotherhood, and "do no harm". Perhaps her cronies will take up a collection to send her on an Buddhist retreat--an extended period of silent prayer and meditation would do her a world of good.


And us too!!!!!!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Can't improve on Mary McCarthy's words to describe the religion of such folks--
> "a sour, baleful doctrine in which old hates and rancors [have] been stewing for generations, with ignorance proudly stirring the pot."


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Reality check. Doesn't Cheryl seem out of sorts tonight?



Huckleberry said:


> KPG
> you want to learn you just said. Lots to learn from Cheeky but be warned it will take some free thinking to understand it. That "free" part is what will be hang-up for you I am sure.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

jelun2 said:


> I am not so sure of that. I think they would possibly die of shock.
> If I see one more person write that these minimum wage jobs were not meant to support a family I may just scream.
> (insert letters I cannot use here) of course the jobs were not meant ot sustain anyone but the rich so and so's lives who own the company. That self righteous Green person who own Hobby Lobby and that Christian Book Company who doesn't want women to have access to medications that they want and need had made $4.5 BILLION dollars in the past 40 years. He loves to tell the story about starting out with a $600. loan... he neglects to include that all of those folks working for minimum wage made him a multi billionaire.
> I am not sure about the rest of his family, they are not as rich as he, I am pretty sure.
> As Bill Gates and Steve Jobs demonstrated, it is not necessary to pay workers such low wages that they need for us to feed and house them in order to make billions of dollars.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Remember West Texas.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think tonight may be the blast off.



susanmos2000 said:


> Don't presume to speak for me, KPG. You're a disgrace.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You are too kind. I think she deludes herself and embarrasses everyone else. Do you see lies and manipulation? Grandiosity? Exaggeration? Not signs of mental health. IMHO



pardoquilts said:


> KPG - Your insistence that you are the one to show the rest of us the only right way to live our lives is egotistical and condescending. I, too, have preached in our church. So what? How lovely that you are rich enough to travel extensively. Not everyone is that fortunate. I think you believe in a mythology which doesn't work for many people, and I'd appreciate it if you would keep it to yourself.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Insane?



alcameron said:


> And is she telling us she's a minister? Behavior is certainly inappropriate for a person of the cloth! And that's putting it mildly!
> 
> Humble, too.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Self imploding finally?



pardoquilts said:


> You absolutely did tell me how to live my life. You think I should buy into your religious beliefs and that your mythology is the only way to believe. You also said that you travel on your own dime, which implies, since you say you have travelled extensively, that you have the money to do that. And, you presume to speak to what Catholics believe, when you aren't one and those who are have told you what their education in their own church has been. You deny what they say and presume to tell them what their own religion teaches.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

HAHAHAA, World Net Daily, that has to be! 
Now that I think of it that must be the "source" for this RWN who is claiming everyone but Muslims will go to jail for not getting health insurance. 
Sometimes you feel like a nut...



Queenmum said:


> Joeysomma, your instincts are correct. WND is a terrible source of accurate information, and you do well not to accept their take on anything without questioning it critically.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

pardoquilts said:


> Furthermore, you have never told me what you would consider proof for anything. You just ignore that.


fyi she will ignore any proof you give, so just please share your thoughts with us. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> knitpresentgifts
> I think it is time for you to go into analysis. You accuse everyone of everything you always have done and continue to do so. You have such a need to read back what any of us have written, please, take some time and read what you wrote. Lots of surprises for you in store and lots of time needed to repent.
> 
> Remember
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You're on the money Susan. I don't believe a single word that erupts from her mouth.



susanmos2000 said:


> After reading this I don't believe a word you say about your travels through the Eastern world and all the Buddhist shrines you claim to have visited. Buddhist monks focus on liberating their mind to the exclusion of all else--the community is expected to provide for their needs. A Buddhist retreat, whether to a monastery or a mountain top, traditionally begins by soliciting the necessary funds from family members and friends--not because they have to, but because people need to give, and because the act of begging is considered a meditation on the ego.
> 
> That's twice today you've shot your mouth off about a religion you know nothing about. Care to try one last time?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Joey I never open your idiotic links. Boredom and fear of contamination.



joeysomma said:


> I was shocked when I read this! I do not want to believe what I read. Since I am not Catholic, maybe someone can clarify.
> 
> No joke this time: Is the pope Catholic?
> 
> Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/09/is-pope-francis-even-catholic/#TkUwdEBK3E5aUb7z.99


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

God bless you.



knitpresentgifts said:


> OK, braggart - tell me which places I've visited since you know so much about me. BTW: I didn't only mention Buddhist shrines. So go ahead, I'm waiting. List every single place of religious intent I've visited.
> 
> When you've completed that list, then tell me how many monks I've met and spoken to and in which country or location.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Can you believe she seriously asked if the Pope were Catholic? Is it a full moon? The loonies are dancing under the moon tonight.



pardoquilts said:


> I'm not even close to Catholic, but I think this pope will do more to bring people back to the Catholic Church than any pope has in hundreds of years. He truly seems to understand the basic tenets of Christianity.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

like everything else she invents.



Huckleberry said:


> KPG
> lots of mythology is in your head.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You are an admirable, courageous person. Thank you.



omnivore2 said:


> The most outrageous action is to have rescued a mistreated animal from some very abusive people. I put myself in great danger and still fear giving details.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> As I thought. A bully, a liar and a fool.
> 
> Have a good evening.


Oh, you're leaving? Please try to rest. God bless.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And KPG is beyond unique. Blast off!



Huckleberry said:


> KPG
> I did not attempt, I did. May find it in the next Websters. Just in case you have missed that as well, new Words are added regularly.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Joey is so full of it and I don't mean grace. I was raised a Catholic and unless she was she should not pretend she knows anything about the Catholic church and her link was absolutely offensive to Catholics. Catholics don't believe what you do, Joey. Joey is so far gone all she puts out here is a load of c--p and what is saddest of all, nobody cares and she is just making a fool of herself but the just keeps showing up everyday. I can only imagine this is her way of trying to save souls by boring us all to tears. At least she doesn't believe she is God like crazy Cheryl does.


True, but she tries. I think I can. I think I can......


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> Cheeky Blighter
> has she not shown all along that every subject that has been discussed she flunked? Can you imagine what it would be like to have her as a Mother? Talk about Hell on Earth. Prison would be freedom compared to being under the same roof with her.


I would be willing to bet she has no children.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> I would be willing to bet she has no children.


damemary
that would make me feel good. No worries about them still suffering.


----------



## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

thank you so much Camacho; I fear I would endanger myself doing the same again too, god help me. Hugs


Camacho said:


> Hurray!
> Wow. That was very courageous.
> The direct answers to the original question in this thread are real gems. I love reading them.


----------



## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

Try entering "big booties" when you are actually interested in making baby clothes OMG what a shock that became ...


cloud9 said:


> [email protected] Leslie. I wanted to join Afgan squares so I typed in Google "join Afgans". Google very seriously told me where to contact the Taliban.


----------



## omnivore2 (Jul 23, 2013)

Hahaha I loved reading that quip : )


SQM said:


> "Encouraging Words" and "Happy Thoughts R Us" are also sections that seem to never appear. For those who do not like political chat, try to get the admins of those sections to activate.
> 
> If ever I get into a manic phase, I might be able to post there.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Queenmum
> Joeysomma
> I think you two need to read again what was written. Goodness gracious, it was never really questioned if he is a Catholic, darn, what is the matter with you and you want us to believe that you understand the Bible when you do not even understand plain English?


Huckleberry, Have you learned how to properly use your new favorite word (unique) and why you failed miserably when you did use it last night? It would be most helpful on your path of even understanding and writing simple English.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> God did not offer His Son as a sacrifice. Jesus gave up His Life willingly. The Power to Lay It Down - John 10:17-18
> 
> "The Father loves me because I give my life. I give my life so that I can get it back again. No person takes my life away from me. I give my own life freely. I have the right to give my life. And I have the right to get it back again. This is what the Father told me." (ERV) Full Text
> 
> Jesus didn't just die; he died with power and authority. His life wasn't taken from him; he laid it down willingly to die for our sins. His crucifixion was an apparent defeat for him, but turned into a lasting defeat for the evil one who sought to use his death to win a victory over God. No one could take Jesus' life. He gave it willingly to save us and purchase us from death. The Cross is God's power demonstrated in humanity's worst forum. It is our glory!


Yes it is!

(They don't know of which they speak. The uneducated on this thread believe in mythologies, their own made-up beliefs, superstitions and fairy tales. They remain miserable and cannot understand why that is so.)

They need Hope yet deny and refuse it.


----------



## Queenmum (Dec 3, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Queenmum
> Joeysomma
> I think you two need to read again what was written. Goodness gracious, it was never really questioned if he is a Catholic, darn, what is the matter with you and you want us to believe that you understand the Bible when you do not even understand plain English?


C'mon, Huck, read what I wrote again and see if you don't understand it a little better.


----------



## Queenmum (Dec 3, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Queenmum, joey believes the article is true she isn't questioning it's accuracy, she believes that c--p.


I know she does, Cheeky. I was applauding what looked like a first attempt to question what she read without automatically believing it. You'd never see KPG doing that.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Cheeky Blighter
> I am sure you are right about that too. Her problems will start right at the door of the Temple I am very sure.


You're no doubt correct, Huck. As proof of her travels KPG made a half-hearted promise to post some photos, but no need--I'm sure she must have made an indelible impression on each and every one she did in fact visit: Buddhas with their faces twisted into expressions of consternation and dismay, Cathedrals bursting into flames, Islamic prayer towers falling in upon themselves, Hindu shrines emptying within seconds as the cows and other sacred animals ran for the hills.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Yes it is!
> 
> (They don't know of which they speak. The uneducated on this thread believe in mythologies, their own made-up beliefs, superstitions and fairy tales. They remain miserable and cannot understand why that is so.)
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I just see it as one of her lies to attempt to mislead.



Huckleberry said:


> damemary
> that would make me feel good. No worries about them still suffering.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> What I asked was anything in the article true. If it is, I would think the Church is in trouble. The ones on here who say they are Catholic should know if anything in the article is true.
> 
> I did not ask if the Pope was Catholic, it is the title of the article. Many of you made comments without opening the link.


They are dunces Joey. We need to stop wasting our time with them as they cannot comprehend anything.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And wasn't last night special, speaking of manic phases. KPG was on a trip. See Smoking and Obamacare #21 pge 98. Lovethelake tells Huck she "needs to die." I think some serious intervention is needed.



susanmos2000 said:


> You're no doubt correct, Huck. As proof of her travels KPG made a half-hearted promise to post some photos, but no need--I'm sure she must have made an indelible impression on each and every one she did in fact visit: Buddhas with their faces twisted into expressions of consternation and dismay, Cathedrals bursting into flames, Islamic prayer towers falling in upon themselves, Hindu shrines emptying within seconds as the cows and other sacred animals ran for the hills.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> What I asked was anything in the article is true. If it is, I would think the Church is in trouble. The ones on here who say they are Catholic should know if anything in the article is true.
> 
> I did not ask if the Pope was Catholic, it is the title of the article. Many of you made comments without opening the link.


To put it bluntly, Joey, that article is poppycock. Here's why:

The Church does not believe that the fact of being gay is in itself sinful. Catholics believe that God made homosexuals that way for reasons we cannot comprehend, and sin only enters the picture if gays (like straights) indulge in sexual activity outside the sacrament of marriage.

Can non-Christians/agnostics/atheists/ go to Heaven? Of course they can. Only those who reject Christ with full knowledge are condemned, and in some cases enlightenment may only come after death. Obviously there are many in the world who have received a distorted or misguided impression of Him--or simply have not received the message at all (as with Native Americans before the arrival of the Europeans)

Can priests and nuns marry? God's law is constant and unchanging, but issues like this and what positions women may hold in the Church hierarchy are determined by man (under the guidance of the Lord) and may be subject to re-examination from time to time.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The link was suspect. I'm quite certain there is no truth in it. I am also quite certain you were not questioning the article, but rather you were just intending to stir the pot. Not happening. God bless.



joeysomma said:


> What I asked was anything in the article true. If it is, I would think the Church is in trouble. The ones on here who say they are Catholic should know if anything in the article is true.
> 
> I did not ask if the Pope was Catholic, it is the title of the article. Many of you made comments without opening the link.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

IMHO, Cheryl is also a lying troublemaker.



pardoquilts said:


> How presumptuous and condescending! I am not miserable and I have created my moral system based on the idea that every human has intrinsic worth and dignity (though some people try that notion more than others). I believe strongly that we are supposed to do what we can to help others and work to create a better community.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

damemary said:


> The link was suspect. I'm quite certain there is no truth in it. I am also quite certain you were not questioning the article, but rather you were just intending to stir the pot. Not happening. God bless.


The source was WND, another right-wing rag. Anyone who reads that stuff needs to look around to see if there are other, more main stream sources that say the same thing. There are Catholic websites. Why not go there to read what they say?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

What was all that stuff from KPG telling Huck she was properly modifying the word "unique?" She coined a new word:uniquer, and if it had been out in quotes, you,d know that she was being cute. The other words modifying "unique" we're absolutely fine---adverbs modify adjectives, and that's how she used "unique."
Huck, your grammar and vocabulary and syntax are fine.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

alcameron said:


> What was all that stuff from KPG telling Huck she was properly modifying the word "unique?" She coined a new word:uniquer, and if it had been out in quotes, you,d know that she was being cute. The other words modifying "unique" we're absolutely fine---adverbs modify adjectives, and that's how she used "unique."
> Huck, your grammar and vocabulary and syntax are fine.


You have no idea either how Huck failed in using proper English. Bravo Al. Look it up and learn what you do not know.

Or stay in the dark as you usually do. BTW: proper English is bipartisan so any source that teaches you proper English can apply.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> They are dunces Joey. We need to stop wasting our time with them as they cannot comprehend anything.


You can't always blame the other person. They are not always fools, liars, and dunces who are weak on comprehension. Time to examine inwardly.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You have no idea either how Huck failed in using proper English. Bravo Al. Look it up and learn what you do not know.


Wow! Is there anything you aren't an authority on?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> Wow! Is there anything you aren't an authority on?


Why don't you explain how Huck failed then? I'm sure she'd rather hear from you than me.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Language can be used for emphasis.....and humor. I think they should lighten up and try and get the joke.



alcameron said:


> What was all that stuff from KPG telling Huck she was properly modifying the word "unique?" She coined a new word:uniquer, and if it had been out in quotes, you,d know that she was being cute. The other words modifying "unique" we're absolutely fine---adverbs modify adjectives, and that's how she used "unique."
> Huck, your grammar and vocabulary and syntax are fine.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Or stay the joke. Their choice.



alcameron said:


> You can't always blame the other person. They are not always fools, liars, and dunces who are weak on comprehension. Time to examine inwardly.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

damemary said:


> Language can be used for emphasis.....and humor. I think they should lighten up and try and get the joke.


There was no joke. Huck, herself, said she used proper English.

It seems no one understands the error in her ways including you.

I'm not surprised. The joke is all those who have no idea of the errors in Huck's attempt to write proper English. Huck actually bragged about how she used a "new" word in the English language as well.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

In her own mind? No.



pardoquilts said:


> Wow! Is there anything you aren't an authority on?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

damemary said:


> In her own mind? No.


Cannot understand Huck's error yourself either, huh, damemary?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> Wow! Is there anything you aren't an authority on?


You recently implied you are un-educated, so I'll pass on answering your question to me.


----------



## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Cannot understand Huck's error yourself either, huh, damemary?


Maybe if nobody understands what you are trying to get across it can't be understood. Maybe if nobody believes as you do, it is unbelievable. Maybe you are not an authority on everything! Maybe you don't have all the answers.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

damemary said:


> And wasn't last night special, speaking of manic phases. KPG was on a trip. See Smoking and Obamacare #21 pge 98. Lovethelake tells Huck she "needs to die." I think some serious intervention is needed.


You of course blew out of proportion what I meant. You have to die to get to Heaven or Hell................duhhhhhh


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> They are dunces Joey. We need to stop wasting our time with them as they cannot comprehend anything.


Please do stop wasting your time.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

pardoquilts said:


> Maybe if nobody understands what you are trying to get across it can't be understood. Maybe if nobody believes as you do, it is unbelievable. Maybe you are not an authority on everything! Maybe you don't have all the answers.


Not my problem you, nor any of the haters who choose to criticize me, do not understand the proper way to modify the word 'unique.' So, the usual MO appears; personally attack the one who knows what you do not and are un-willing to learn.

Maybe you could find *any* English teacher to explain to you what you cannot grasp. Maybe I'm correct and you cannot accept that fact.

I'm certain no apologies by anyone for their ignorance and attack of me will be forthcoming.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> You of course blew out of proportion what I meant. You have to die to get to Heaven or Hell................duhhhhhh


Typical LTL. You answered Huck's question, they attack you personally for doing so. Ignore them and their stupidity.

In order to contrive a new low, dame had to cross post to incite everyone as well.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Not my problem you, nor any of the haters who choose to criticize me, do not understand the proper way to modify the word 'unique.' So, the usual MO appears; personally attack the one who knows what you do not and are un-willing to learn.
> 
> Maybe you could find *any* English teacher to explain to you what you cannot grasp.
> 
> I'm certain no apologies by anyone for their ignorance and attack of me will be forthcoming.


For crying out loud, do you ever stop? If I had the time and inclination, and could hold down my breakfast, I would trawl through your foul posts and find numerous examples of your less than perfect grasp of English. You impress nobody but yourself. Motes and beams, lady, motes and beams.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> You of course blew out of proportion what I meant. You have to die to get to Heaven or Hell................duhhhhhh


Nice try, LTL. As one who claims to love and worship the Lord, do you really think you can fool Him with double meanings?


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> You of course blew out of proportion what I meant. You have to die to get to Heaven or Hell................duhhhhhh


Then of course I wish you the same.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Susan doesn't know or at least explain that the Catholic's position demands God is the Creator. God is also the creator of evolution! God is required to explain man's origin. Science cannot conflict with faith. TE may co-exist with God. God didn't need evolution to create it or anything.
> 
> If I've misinterpreted the Catholic position on TE only (not evolution that susan was in agreement with AND the type of evolution I therefore, asked how she reconciled with her Catholic Faith), I'm sure a practicing and knowledgeable Catholic will correct my statements. I hope they will if required. What I've written is how I understand their position.
> 
> Otherwise, susan again, didn't compare apples to apples and completely twisted my question to her.


Catholics do not believe that what was written in the Bible about the creation is absolute fact. What we believe is that God created the earth, and through His direction we evolved. If you look at the Genesis timeline, it was pretty close, the sun, seas, birds, animals, and man. The stories were told by man in language that the people could understand at that time in history with God's words coming through the writer


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Typical LTL. You answered Huck's question, they attack you personally for doing so. Ignore them and their stupidity.


A self-proclaimed Christian with an ego so large she believes that her double entendres can trick God. I'd say you're unique, KPG, but it isn't so--you and LTL are two of a kind.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Catholics do not believe that what was written in the Bible about the creation is absolute fact. What we believe is that God created the earth, and through His direction we evolved. If you look at the Genesis timeline, it was pretty close, the sun, seas, birds, animals, and man. The stories were told by man in language that the people could understand at that time in history with God's words coming through the writer


Thanks for clarifying; we were discussing who is the creator and proof of same. Some said evolution was the cause of all creation and others said only God created anything. Susan posted that Catholics can believe that Evolution created man.


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## pardoquilts (Aug 23, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You recently implied you are un-educated, so I'll pass on answering your question to me.


When did I suggest I was uneducated?


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