# But you don't own the actual work!



## zombiesue (May 30, 2012)

I am a little new to knitting  So the rest of you might just be immune to this, but I keep seeing this over and over again when looking for patterns:



> Additionally, DO NOT sell the finished items made from these patterns. As stated above, they are for PERSONAL and CHARITABLE use only.


I think that this is stretching the bounds of intellectual property. If you think about it, a pattern is knowledge, it teaches you something--namely what stitch to put where. So how much can you own knowledge? if I taught you how to do something, like draw an elephant, wouldn't you think it strange if I told you that you're not allowed to sell any pictures of elephants? Of course you would.

That said, I understand if someone wants to make a pattern available for free and they strongly desire to keep the concept of greed out of their patterns. I get it. I still think it is weird. If you knit something, you own the actual work, it doesn't matter who's instructions you followed. But I understand why someone would say that.

What really boggles me is that people sell patterns, which is okay, I think it is perfectly okay to make money that way, but there are even patterns that you have to pay for that say you aren't allowed to sell anything made from the pattern you paid for. Now that, I think, is really pushing it.

I will respect people's wishes on their patterns just because it is a nice thing to do, even though I think it is strange.

So what is your opinion? A nice legal-moral-philosophical question about what abstract concepts a person can own and to what extent ;D


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## Linday (Jan 22, 2012)

There are many discussions on here about copyright and there are many articles on copyright as well. Perhaps a search for the discussion threads will help to answer your question.

Here is an article that addresses your question in a simple way. There are other more detailed articles in the threads mentioned previously.

http://www.craftsy.com/patterns/search?fit=&sortBy=&category=All&name=gypsycream


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## zombiesue (May 30, 2012)

I am more interested in what people think, not the actual law.


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## Vickie2249 (Mar 13, 2012)

I absolutely agree with you Sue(?). But I think that if you change a little something about a pattern that has these instructions on it and then sell it then I don't see how you can be in breach of any copyright rules. And the same applies, I would have thought, if you knitted the item in question in pink, for example, when the pattern is in blue (for example) then again, copyright is not breached.

I'm not even sure how a designer would know that these directions had not been abided by. I don't think I'm ready to test my theories though  

Vickie xox


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## zombiesue (May 30, 2012)

Sue, Suzy, whatever  

If I designed a pattern (some day!) I wouldn't care who reposted it or taught it to their friend or sold the work or whatever. I wouldn't even require credit. All I would care about is that no one claimed to have invented it themselves, that is just rude ;p


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## dachsmom (Aug 23, 2011)

Seems like if you pay for the pattern you should be able to use it for what you want.If not, what are you actually buying? I find it hard to believe that all of the companies in China actually designed the patterns for the million of garments they crank out. I'm probably wrong but wouldn't be first time.


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## zombiesue (May 30, 2012)

That is a good point haha.

And some things are like... I don't know. If I garter stitch a whole blanket, do I own all garter stitched squares? Haha. What if I get fancy and seed stitch half of it. Then I get fancier and add cables. Where do you draw the line? Just how original or unoriginal does it have to be?


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## Joy Marshall (Apr 6, 2011)

You have opened a can of worms. There has been reams written about copyright on this site alone.


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## Tennessee.Gal (Mar 11, 2012)

How would anyone know if you sold it or not? I wouldn't give it another thought.


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## zombiesue (May 30, 2012)

They wouldn't know, unless you made millions on it, which is another reason I think the restriction is silly. I don't think I have ever heard of someone being sued for this.


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## inishowen (May 28, 2011)

I hope you don't get bombarded with the rules and regulations of copywrite laws, as it seems to get people's backs up, even to ask an innocent question!


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## zombiesue (May 30, 2012)

I ain't scared of nothing 

It would be interesting if someone has a legal precedent though, since the law doesn't mention knitting specifically and it is a little different than other areas of art.


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## Poledra65 (Jul 6, 2011)

Oh Yes! People have been sued. On one of the threads a lady that someone knows is being sued. Also, if you want to sell something at a craft fair or on Etsy or someplace like that and the designer comes across it, be very careful, Disney will and does sue, they also win because they have the money to win. 
The main reason people don't want items sold, if they are selling the pattern is that they would like to sell more patterns. Most designers will give you permission if you contact them, they mostly don't want mass production from their patterns, they could do that themselves, they would like recognition for their patterns though, but some designers do not want items sold at all from their patterns. Just contact the designer, they usually have a webpage or email address. 
Lion Brand yarn gives permission to sell a small amount of items, if you ask them. 
I used to think it was silly to put this on patterns but as I am now designing patterns and would like to make some money at it, it is no longer so silly. 
I don't mind however if you sell items made from my pattern, I just don't want to walk into Walmart or someplace and see my design that took me hours upon hours to get right mass produced for sale and someone who didn't create the actual pattern making millions of dollars off of my leg work, however if you want to sell some at a craft fair or something, give me credit for designing the pattern and have fun, hopefully you'll make a few dollars and some of your customers will come to my site to look at other patterns.

Please don't anyone get mad at me, I'm just answering the question from my experience and point of view.

This may answer some questions for people. 
http://www.craftdesigns4you.com/copyrights.htm


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## zombiesue (May 30, 2012)

The Disney issue is different, those are copyrighted characters, not knitting patterns. A character is definitely a creative work, not the simple know-how of how to knit a thing.

You don't remember the title of the thread do you? ;D I would think it is very interesting. I don't see any reason for anyone to be mad at you rofl. Actually that made me laugh a little.

Do fellow knitters often buy a finished product in lieu of buying the pattern and knitting it themselves?


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## Poledra65 (Jul 6, 2011)

zombiesue said:


> The Disney issue is different, those are copyrighted characters, not knitting patterns. A character is definitely a creative work, not the simple know-how of how to knit a thing.
> 
> You don't remember the title of the thread do you? ;D I would think it is very interesting. I don't see any reason for anyone to be mad at you rofl. Actually that made me laugh a little.
> 
> Do fellow knitters often buy a finished product in lieu of buying the pattern and knitting it themselves?


Lol, you got me on that one, I don't know if any knitters would or not, well, no, I take that back, I do know a couple people, but that's one of the things that I think are kinda silly about it, most people really don't want to make and sell several hundred of something. Oh well...
I'll see if I can find the link and post it.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

zombiesue said:


> Do fellow knitters often buy a finished product in lieu of buying the pattern and knitting it themselves?


I knit. Most of the time I do NOT knit sweaters. However, I have several hand-knit sweaters ... well knit for some unappreciative boor who chucked it to a charity store, where I found it. If I like it and it fits me (unusual, given my size!), I buy it and wear it proudly admitting I did not knit it. Ditto for bed-socks and the entre-lac beret I have.

I have patterns for all those items, but no great inclination to knit them for myself. Go figure!


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## insanitynz (Mar 14, 2011)

I go on the theroy I paaid for it so I own it so I share my patterns


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## Poledra65 (Jul 6, 2011)

Well, I can't find that particular link, there are so many threads on copyright that it'd take me the better part of a month I think, but I did manage to pull up all of these to give anyone interested a better idea of what it is dealing with. 
Hope this helps at least one person with questions and lessons the confusion.

http://knittingforprofit.com/blog/an-update-on-knitting-pattern-copyrights/
http://knitty.com/ISSUEfall03/FEATcopyright.html
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/
http://www.vogueknitting.com/magazine/article_archive/a_matter_of_principle.aspx


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## ssho (Oct 2, 2011)

When someone comes up with an original idea, spends hours knitting it, ripping it out and reknitting it until it is just right {right enough for someone to want to buy it} and then you spend many more hours putting it into a PDF file.. now they sell it to you for $5 so you can afford it. They are selling it to you for your personal use. If you want to pay a designer to come up with an original idea for you and go though all those hours of work so you can do what you want with it it would probably cost you at least $500. If it is so easy to do then everyone would be able to do it!  Just another way to look at it.


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## Linday (Jan 22, 2012)

zombiesue said:


> I am more interested in what people think, not the actual law.


I have an opinion but after some of the discussion on this forum about Copyright Law, I think I was trying to avoid another round of discussion about what is a really "hot topic" that seems to bring out some things better left buried.
I think I should be able to sell my work because the designer has made their money from the sale of the pattern. That being said, I would exercise caution because I don't want to end up in court.


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## usafwife (Feb 16, 2012)

This is definitely a proverbial can of worms. 

These issues.. it's so hard to see where the rules start, and where they end. Personally, I include on all of my patterns the note of: "You can feel free to make and sell as many items from this pattern as you'd like. Just please don't sell the actual pattern."


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

One pattern maker has a very pragmatic attitude about the whole subject and writes this on the patterns sold:
"This pattern cannot be reproduced without permission from numma numma llc. If you can use this pattern to produce items for sale and make money knitting - go for it!"

There are damned few knitters actually making money at knitting!

P.S. Numma Numma is a _real_ company: http://www.numma-numma.com/


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## zombiesue (May 30, 2012)

ssho said:


> When someone comes up with an original idea, spends hours knitting it, ripping it out and reknitting it until it is just right {right enough for someone to want to buy it} and then you spend many more hours putting it into a PDF file.. now they sell it to you for $5 so you can afford it. They are selling it to you for your personal use. If you want to pay a designer to come up with an original idea for you and go though all those hours of work so you can do what you want with it it would probably cost you at least $500. If it is so easy to do then everyone would be able to do it! Just another way to look at it.


That is true, and I feel more sympathy here the more unique the pattern is.

But it shouldn't take someone hours to convert to a pdf lol!


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## Gypsycream (Nov 23, 2011)

I don't really want to get too involved in this discussion because there have been too many similar discussions on this matter. 

But as a designer I think I have a right to an opinion. That is, if you buy one of my patterns, I have no problem with an individual making the bears and selling them. I have a problem with them being sold in mass production. To me if you are kind enough to buy one of my patterns, and you buy the yarn, notions and put all the hard work into making a bear then its your bear.

But I would have a problem if you bought one of my patterns and shared it or sold it. My designs have taken me weeks, sometimes months to design, its my hard work, blood, sweat and tears and my idea. If I ever found that my actual patterns were being sold on the open market I would sue. They are covered by copyright for a reason.

The lady above who stated that if she bought a pattern it was hers and she would share if she wanted to, please don't buy one of my patterns.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Gypsycream said:


> The lady above who stated that if she bought a pattern it was hers and she would share if she wanted to, please don't buy one of my patterns.


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## zombiesue (May 30, 2012)

Gypsycream said:


> I don't really want to get too involved in this discussion because there have been too many similar discussions on this matter.
> 
> But as a designer I think I have a right to an opinion. That is, if you buy one of my patterns, I have no problem with an individual making the bears and selling them. I have a problem with them being sold in mass production. To me if you are kind enough to buy one of my patterns, and you buy the yarn, notions and put all the hard work into making a bear then its your bear.
> 
> ...


I think that we are entitled to our opinions as human beings, status as a designer is irrelevant lol.

But people probably do share your patterns. Sorry, but it is true. And the chances of you ever catching them is incredibly slim. Assuming you could sue them (what if mr thief lives in another country? Uganda? Especially if you sell them on the internet. Or they might claim that they thought of the same thing themselves). At the very least, I am willing to bet that when Mrs Kitty Knitter's mother in law or close friend or whatever comes over, she probably lets her take home the printed pattern. You would never know! And most people I think would agree that it is wrong to resell your pattern on their own website, but I think most people think it's okay to just send it to a few friends or include it with a few yarns they get rid of at a yard sale.

Just look at internet music piracy! It's wrong, it's illegal, but a large percentage of the country thinks its okay.

I am sure you already knew all that, but it brings up another point... is it worth it to make rules you cannot enforce?


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## Gypsycream (Nov 23, 2011)

Yes you make a good point Zombiesue. And I'm sure you are right and folk do share patterns/designs, its human nature to share.

But your last point about making rules that cannot be enforced, I don't necessarily agree with. I think there are enough honest folk out there who wouldn't share or resell a pattern if they know its wrong and would be taking money from the pocket of the designer. 

Sharing with a friend or relative is one thing but printing out mass copies of patterns and selling them on an open market is quite another. That is why we have copyright laws in most countries. And it would be those I would sue. For that reason I spent time on lots of sites like Ebay, Esty and alike checking that my patterns are not being resold without my permission. Sure some will slip through the net, but in the world of technology we now live in its easy to check things like this.


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## zombiesue (May 30, 2012)

Gypsycream said:


> Yes you make a good point Zombiesue. And I'm sure you are right and folk do share patterns/designs, its human nature to share.
> 
> But your last point about making rules that cannot be enforced, I don't necessarily agree with. I think there are enough honest folk out there who wouldn't share or resell a pattern if they know its wrong and would be taking money from the pocket of the designer.
> 
> Sharing with a friend or relative is one thing but printing out mass copies of patterns and selling them on an open market is quite another. That is why we have copyright laws in most countries. And it would be those I would sue. For that reason I spent time on lots of sites like Ebay, Esty and alike checking that my patterns are not being resold without my permission. Sure some will slip through the net, but in the world of technology we now live in its easy to check things like this.


That's true, I think most people are honest too.

But one bad apple can really spoil things for very unlucky people!


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## inishowen (May 28, 2011)

I know of a charity shop that sells photocopied patterns! They have no idea they're doing anything wrong.


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## Tashi (Aug 12, 2011)

Creating aN ORIGINAL pattern, testing it, developing it for various sizes and yarns and then publishing it takes substantial commitment in time, resources, intellect, persistence, tremendous problem solving skills, imagination and CREATIVITY.

I for one am always grateful for the generosity of others who have created the patterns and I respect that I should always acknowledge them...... strange meeting someone who is tauting YOUR PATTERN as her own. RESPECT me thinks!


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## pengwensgranny (Aug 3, 2011)

I have a book of Disney character patterns.
In the book it requests that you embroider the Disney copyright logo in small black characters at the bottom of the designed part of the item.
As I only knit for my grand daughters, I haven't done this. Perhaps I should start.


zombiesue said:


> The Disney issue is different, those are copyrighted characters, not knitting patterns. A character is definitely a creative work, not the simple know-how of how to knit a thing.
> 
> You don't remember the title of the thread do you? ;D I would think it is very interesting. I don't see any reason for anyone to be mad at you rofl. Actually that made me laugh a little.
> 
> Do fellow knitters often buy a finished product in lieu of buying the pattern and knitting it themselves?


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## jennylynn (May 16, 2011)

While I understand the copyright issues, I have to side with those who feel like if you purchase anything, it is then yours to use as you see fit. I agree that if you buy someone else's pattern, you do not have the right to claim that PATTERN as your own and sell the PATTERN, or even give it away actually. That is basically pirating, like with music or movies, etc. BUT, if you purchased the right to make that garment from someone else's pattern, you should be able to make those garments and sell them. You did the labor, all you used from that other vendor was their pattern. I am happy to give credit to the pattern maker, even if I give the item away as a gift. I would even be happy to pay some form of reasonable royalty to the pattern maker, but think that is kind of greedy. If you make and sell the pattern to millions of people, I think you've already made your profit and that should be enough. If you go by the copyrights people are placing on knitting/crocheting patterns, then every pattern we have ever bought through any of the major sewing pattern makers, we are not allowed to make any garment for sale from those patterns. I personally know several seamstresses who do that every day. It is a very, very gray area.


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## kacey64 (Mar 23, 2011)

I design beadwork and have sold patterns from my website. A few weeks after selling a pattern for one of my bracelets to a beader in California, I received an email from her with an ad for a class for the same pattern I had sold her, to be taught by someone at her LBS. I contacted the teacher and she said she had figured out the pattern from someone's bracelet. Copyright infringement? Absolutely! My customer was questioning whether or not the design was mine. And that is the problem. The true designer's integrity was questioned. Changing the color does not make the design your own. And 'figuring it out' is copyright infringement.


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## realsilvergirl (Nov 13, 2011)

Oh dear....


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## flhusker (Feb 17, 2011)

Let me add my 2 cents. And this is regarding knitted items only. Hubby and I sell at craft fairs. I find that as far as my knitted items go that anyone who is a knitter will look at my item and perhaps ask questions. I frequently hear, "I am a knitter and I would like to knit that myself." Therefore I am not infringing on anyone's patterns as I may have helped to make a sale for that person's pattern. On the other hand people who are not knitters do buy the items I make. They would not be buying the pattern anyway so I have not hurt anyone sales of a pattern.


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## kiwiannie (Jul 30, 2011)

I adapt patterns to what I want,i don't thinkeven the person that wrote the pattern would know their work by the time i'm finished.Sometimesi can take bits and pieces from 5 or 6 different patterns.


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## mandymoo (Mar 29, 2011)

I buy many,many patterns from loads of sites but if it states that you cannot sell finished item,I JUST DO NOT BUY,so they do themselves out of a purchase,their lose there are many many other super pattern designers that allow you to sell you can always find a pattern near to the ones that they offer,i cannot see the point of them even putting them on the site for sale.


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## fibertrix (Apr 25, 2011)

When I was working in a yarn store I made up a very easy hat pattern to give away with the yarn. Later that year I took my own knitting of that pattern to a craft shop to sell on behalf. Oh no said Mrs shopkeeper, We have plenty of those, we don't want any more! Luckily I am able to make up my own patterns but I still check out any copyright issues on free or bought patterns. Simply, if I cant sell my work I won't buy the pattern.


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## cydneyjo (Aug 5, 2011)

I knit all the time, but not in the volume that would permit me to sell the items, although proud relatives always say, "You should sell that." I tell them I can't, and I tell them why, but I have the same question raised by others: if I make it, do not sell the pattern, but do sell the finished product, where's the harm. I explain that I am not creative; I just "follow the recipe," and that's another analogy. If I make cookies and sell them at a bak sale, although I didn't create the recipe, is that a copyright infringement? It's not as if I was in competition with the designer, unless he or she was going to make the items for sale, as well as the patterns. As I said, I don't do it, but I've always questioned why.


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## vpatt (Dec 24, 2011)

So if you knit a watch cap that is just knit 1 purl 1, or a pair of socks from a formula instead of a pattern how is someone to prove it is their pattern. Now I don't want to think that I am taking something from someone, but how would I be able to search every pattern that has ever been written to know for sure? I'm not trying to be silly, I really don't understand. If I measure MY hands and make mittens that fit me how would I ever know if someone had written out that exact pattern before? What about all the knit stitches that have been put in books. They have been around for many years, doen't that make them public domain? Having said that I contacted someone once when their website said not to reproduce her patterns for selling. She said she didn't care as long as it was not mass produced. But how many constitute mass production? Is there a specific number? I will look at the link above.


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## Lijnet (Oct 7, 2011)

For me, the whole thing comes down to a personal ethical and moral response . . . if something has a copyright and accompanying statements on a pattern, then I am happy to oblige and agree to the terms and conditions. If I don't like the terms and conditions, I don't need to knit or buy the pattern. For me, it is about the values in life that I hold, and what my actions portray to others . . . in this case it is about my respect for the work and efforts of others in their creativity.


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## kimberknit (Jun 8, 2012)

cydneyjo said:


> I knit all the time, but not in the volume that would permit me to sell the items, although proud relatives always say, "You should sell that." I tell them I can't, and I tell them why, but I have the same question raised by others: if I make it, do not sell the pattern, but do sell the finished product, where's the harm. I explain that I am not creative; I just "follow the recipe," and that's another analogy. If I make cookies and sell them at a bak sale, although I didn't create the recipe, is that a copyright infringement? It's not as if I was in competition with the designer, unless he or she was going to make the items for sale, as well as the patterns. As I said, I don't do it, but I've always questioned why.


I hear the 'why don't you sell that' line a lot from friends. first reason is because when I learned how to knit just a few years ago I learned from blogs and YouTube, I almost feel that I 'know' some of these designers just from their Internet presence. I have seen instances where designers have found their patterns knit up and for sale, and their followers are rabid about shutting those sellers down. what I don't understand is this, in this day & age how can anyone really claim to have done something original? I understand the great measures that have to be gone thru to write, test, and publish a pattern of book of patterns. I know myself that without these patterns I would still be making scarves. but whose to say that pattern they made is 100% original, it could be a knock off of something that designer saw in a store somewhere and decided to write up a pattern for, and because it was the 'first' knitting pattern for the item it's 'theirs' it is like the old 'which came first the chicken or the egg?' if you ask me. the only other thing I can say is when it comes to making knits for sale, it hardly seems worth it to me. I make socks, shawls, baby sweaters, hats, and for the most part of someone who is worthy asks for something I will have them get the needed yarn, and make the item. by the time I finish a pair of socks (1 week or so) and purchase materials the price I would feel is fair for my time would be far to expensive for a single pair of socks.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

I think the situation is not easily controlled despite any laws. Mass marketing is one thing and is usually relatively easily discovered. The making of a small handful of items based on someone else's pattern is a different story. If my neighbor wants to pay me for duplicating an item I am making, I will do it without a second thought, other than what color or yarn differences to use. If I like a pattern and begin to use it, the chances are that I will begin making changes almost as soon as I begin. 

I think it important to acknowledge that you are using someone else's designs/ideas but to tell the truth, if I said I got my idea from so-and-so, no one would know who I was talking about, nor would they care. What I see is that people want to know they are buying from the creator of the idea as well as the product itself. It seems to feel special to a buyer that you are the creative genius.


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## Mrs. G (Sep 5, 2011)

A friend asked me to knit a couple of jumpers for her grandchildren. I brought the wool, knitted it and when she asked what I wanted for it - I just said whatever you want to give me - the wool cost so and so. She was very generous and I got the wool money back plus a little extra. I don't knit to sell items in a shop or anything just for friends - surely this doesn't count as counterfeit. I am going to make enquiries about this topic as I use to work for a Trade Mark/Patent Attorney.


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## blackat99 (Nov 4, 2011)

Gypsycream said:


> I don't really want to get too involved in this discussion because there have been too many similar discussions on this matter.
> 
> But as a designer I think I have a right to an opinion. That is, if you buy one of my patterns, I have no problem with an individual making the bears and selling them. I have a problem with them being sold in mass production. To me if you are kind enough to buy one of my patterns, and you buy the yarn, notions and put all the hard work into making a bear then its your bear.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## swampygirl (Nov 1, 2011)

I am fed up with all this copyright rubbish.

I have many, many patterns and I do what I like with them and have been doing so for 40+ years. 
I've not had my hand slapped or hauled into court for violating a copyright.

It's all a load of Pish!!!


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## laurelarts (Jul 31, 2011)

Gypsycream said:


> I don't really want to get too involved in this discussion because there have been too many similar discussions on this matter.
> 
> But as a designer I think I have a right to an opinion. That is, if you buy one of my patterns, I have no problem with an individual making the bears and selling them. I have a problem with them being sold in mass production. To me if you are kind enough to buy one of my patterns, and you buy the yarn, notions and put all the hard work into making a bear then its your bear.
> 
> ...


I agree, do not buy one of my patterns. Our designs are copyrighted and protected by Federal Copyright Infringement Law.


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## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

I agree with Gypsycream and Laurelarts. What you say makes perfect sense, even from a common-sense point of view. 

I can see that a pattern itself is the property of the designer. However, the created project will certainly be different with each knitter. Only a machine could make two EXACTLY alike. Therefore, the created project should be the sole property of the knitter, and he/she should be able to sell it. 

Mass sales are a different story altogether, and acknowledgement/compensation would be due the designer. That would be only right.


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## DenzelsMa (May 21, 2012)

zombiesue said:


> They wouldn't know, unless you made millions on it, which is another reason I think the restriction is silly. I don't think I have ever heard of someone being sued for this.


I sympathise with your point of view.
I used to subscribe to a cross-stitch magazine. There was always the same big article in each monthly copy. It said the buyer must only copy a design for their own use, must never make any design for sale only for charity. Lots more tarradiddle about what the buyer could and couldn't do. My attitude was 'I'm paying more than £5 per month to have this magazine sent to France so I'll do just what I like with it'.


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## Leonora (Apr 22, 2011)

Some months ago there was a thread on here relating to a design that had been made by someone, and then sold on a website. Someone else recognised the work and who had designed it. They got in touch with the designer, and the seller of the garment is being sued in court for beach of copyright laws. You have to remember, it takes many weeks or even months to design a project, then it has to be test knitted by several people, then proof read for mistakes before it is printed. In effect the designer spends not only her time but money in getting her pattern onto the public marketplace. She has the right to have her work put into copyright, it is her work, and she has the right to say how her pattern can be used. You may get away with selling the designers work once maybe twice, but do not think for one minute you will always get away with it. I am a retired fully qualifed needle craft tutor, and as such I respect designers wishes. If I want to sell the products I make, which I do, I get permission from the designer to do so, and did so just a couple of weeks ago from a brilliant crochet designer of baby outfits.


zombiesue said:


> They wouldn't know, unless you made millions on it, which is another reason I think the restriction is silly. I don't think I have ever heard of someone being sued for this.


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## nanasgrandcreations (Jun 28, 2011)

personally I don't buy patterns with that restriction because I never know when one of the grand children or great grand children will want donation to the school bazzar I will deffiatly buy from some one who gives permission to sell for say 10 per year with acknowledgement of designer


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## swampygirl (Nov 1, 2011)

Well said, DenzelsMa. 
:thumbup:


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## Nanimal (Dec 14, 2011)

Being that there is no way for anyone to tell that something is made from anyone's pattern, then that rule about not selling something made from the pattern is bogus, and in no way can anything legal be gained from it. If the pattern is sold or given away, it is no longer the pattern giver/seller's to dictate what is done with the product made from it, and the only way a person can get into trouble is if it's a matter of copyright infringement. Wow, what some people won't do to try to micromanage what they sell and give. Sheesh.


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## cbjlinda (May 25, 2011)

I am not sure what is so difficult to understand about this issue. This is how someone makes their living. If you designed a motor for a car that uses less gas would you expect that person to let you have it for nothing? creeating these designs takes time and thought. have you ever tried to create a pattern from scratch I mean really from scratch? not copying someone elses work and changing a thing or two? which by the way is still not legal to do". If you resent paying for patterns there are thousands of free ones out there and guess who is supplying those for us? its the same people that are selling patterns. Just my humble opinion on this issue and by the way I am not a pattern designer and do not care to be" I am perfectly happy sitting back and letting them do the designing and I am perfectly willing to pay for what they do" after all they have earned it in my book.


zombiesue said:


> I am a little new to knitting  So the rest of you might just be immune to this, but I keep seeing this over and over again when looking for patterns:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bluebird52 (Jun 11, 2012)

I think people just want to make money.. What good is a pattern if you can't create it correctly. 

Knitting is an ancient art. Patterns have been shared throughout history. If they weren't, we wouldn't be knitting today. 

It's not the pattern but the actually knitting that is of any real value. The caliber of the work is what everyone wants.. not the stinkin pattern.. 

An experienced knitter can go to any garment.. and figure out the pattern. It has been done for centuries. Patterns should be free.. IMO. 
The quality of the work will speak for itself. 

I have never bought a pattern. Every knitter is a DESIGNER.. your work is unique even it there are errors. 

There is a difference between a Designer and a Teacher. We really need more teachers today.


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## HandyFamily (Sep 30, 2011)

If you buy one of my patterns and make the item, do whatever you like with it - ware it / play with it, give it away, give it to charity, sell it - it is yours and I don't care. If you want or can, make a 100 out of a pattern - that's ok with me. I would really be upset if someone starts a mass production - for this will lower the value of any individual item, but as long as you do it with your own hands, your customers are not my potential customers. If they asked you to make it, they probably can't knit / crochet. And would never buy a pattern... calling for a skill they lack.


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## Nanimal (Dec 14, 2011)

I've seen several 'exclusives' that looked like the same thing. All you have to do is change a few little things in a pattern, and you have a whole new pattern, or a whole new old pattern. I respect copyrights, but that's just for the pattern. And, I'm sure that there's no copyright infringement police included in your purchase to make sure you follow all the restrictions. 
Look how many copies of the Mona Lisa there are. You only get in trouble if you try to pass it off as the real deal.


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## Bluebird52 (Jun 11, 2012)

me too.. I learned via internet.. It's like everything in life.. some people are good at something .. then there is an exception.. someone who is REALLY GOOD. 

This knitting is like everything else in life.. if people want the product, they will pay for it. 

Patterns gather dust.


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## Bluebird52 (Jun 11, 2012)

Exactly.. majority of stuff in life is copied with a twist.


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## knitsofacto (Jun 11, 2012)

Okay, newbie piling in with her two pennorth on what she thinks (rather than knows about copyright law) ... please don't be too hard on me here.

I design patterns for baby knits and accessories. Some for publication (book due toward the end of the year), and some which I give away free via Ravelry and my blog. In fact I see that two of the latter (the Demne vintage inspired baby jacket and Runrig Muffatees) have been discussed here on the forum.

I have asked on my free patterns that items not be knitted for resale. I have no problem however with them being sold to benefit charity. I put a lot of work into my designs - to anyone who doubts that designing knitwear and pattern writing is time consuming and often challenging I say try it for yourself. When I make my patterns available at no cost to you I am giving all that effort away. In return I ask that if they possibly can knitters donate an amount of their choosing to p/hop to benefit Medicine Sans Frontieres. Of course not everyone does this, just like p/hop itself (which will soon be hosting my patterns on it's website)I have to rely on an honesty box system and I accept that some are knitting on a very tight budget. But equally some folk donate far more to p/hop than I could or would ever charge for the pattern.

Imagine how it feels then when you discover that others are knitting up your free patterns, made available to benefit charity, and then selling the garments to benefit themselves. Yes, it's happened. Realistically there's little you can do but you do feel disappointed that not everyone is as charitable as you are. And frankly it demonstrates a pretty poor appreciation of the efforts of the person who made that pattern available. Being a pattern designer can be pretty thankless at the best of times but since becoming one I have a new appreciation of just how much we knitters owe those who put the work in.


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## cablenut (Oct 19, 2011)

OK, I'll throw in my 2 cents' worth.
Lots of good instincts here, ladies. I'm not a lawyer, either, so anything I've learned has been from reading up on posts & links to experts.
...
It's truly been a hot topic, from what I can tell. Tempers burn, when folks are challenged about their assumed right to tell you how to use their patterns.
HOWEVER, I've encountered many "copyrighted" patterns that were remakes of vintage stuff from the earlier books with chapters on the subjects. (I like to read and look through the old books)
That means their attempts to claim the pattern they're selling as their original brainchild [due to changing a couple things, or combining it in a way that hasn't been done really recently], is probably bogus. 
!!!
Yep. That's serious copyright infringement -of books previously published.
Some of those books are still in print, and still under copyright themselves. Betcha these pattern authors who are so vehement would calm down if they found themselves in violation. 
...
Intellectual property is one thing. 
Stuff we knit from it is another thing altogether.
... From what I gather, I'm OK if I use the pattern, and knit from it, IT wouldn't be OK to copy it off and pass it around to my knitting buddies. 
If it's already general knowledge, in general domain, so to speak, that's another story. Those are fair game.
...
The limits on what can be copyrighted are really specific. I forget where I read it, but there are explanations out on the net as to why lots of clothes can't copyright their patterns, despite their attempts to do so. I don't believe it would even hold up in court, if they wasted their money to pursue it. That's why they don't. 
I forget the words they used, exactly.
It really pays to look it up if you're worried.
Again, I'm no lawyer, so this isn't meant as legal advice. It's just what I've absorbed and also generally what I go by.
...
As for what you make from the patterns, as long as you aren't selling your own written version of the pattern, or copying it off to give to buddies, generally you're safe. If it's in a book, encourage pals to buy the book. They can get used ones for cheap. If they want to borrow your book, you could loan it to them. No one has made rules about that yet. 
(Talk about too many rules!)
What we knit, sew, or bake [from the instructions we read] is OURS to do with as we please. 
I'm a fan of giving credit to whomever published the patterns I love so much. I figure it's only fair.
Elizabeth Zimmerman wrote lots about knitting, but was humble about what she "unvented" -her coined term for what she came up with. She figured in all the centuries of this craft, and the wise gals and guys who've plied it, we're often rediscovering something that's been done before, though perhaps forgotten. Some may even be published or republished recently.
I mostly knit for charity, so I really don't figure there's a problem either way, in my case. 
I do find it annoying when people get arrogant about their "patterns" as if they're the one who invented fire. Their printed expression can be copyrighted, and so can the pictures... in USA. However these authors can't tell you what you can do with the creation you make from their technical instructions. That's what they are: technical instructions. 
IF they wanted to patent some part of it, they'd go for that, but it's not cheap to do. You know, like a new type of closure or a new gadget to work with, might be worth patenting.

In the music industry, there's a general disapproval when someone rips off another musician's phrases or stanzas of music. In Jazz, they do it for fun, and run with it -as a style. It's expected then. 
In education, teachers are allowed to borrow all kinds of things in the interest of teaching and inspiring the kids.
In crafts, for centuries, the practice has been to share the "how to" of things. It's honored tradition to pass it along. Many artists have tried to guard their secrets. There are special protections in place for artists & photographers, as to derivatives being made from their work, such as the copyright protections being automatic from the creation and extending automatically for 70 years beyond the artist's demise; but they don't generally extend to yarn & fabric industries.
Again, I'm no lawyer. I'm an artist. IT pays to know something about what is and isn't affected in your own hobby or industry. That way you'll know who to ignore, and who to listen to and keep yourself happy & safe.
When I'm not painting animals, I'm generally doing something fun with yarn. Often both. 
Coincidentally, when you see crafts based off copyrighted artwork (such as Disney), you're dealing with derivatives. If some company has secured permission to create their kits, they've gotten permission from the artist or company who holds the copyright, to make that derivative and sell it. 
Disney's own guidelines are based in legal rights. I would definitely pay attention to anything like that. Its better to be on the safe side.


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## DenzelsMa (May 21, 2012)

swampygirl said:


> Well said, DenzelsMa.
> :thumbup:


Thanks. I know people put a lot of time into making designs and patterns. Then they probably make a fair amount of money selling them, either singly or in magazines. So why should they be so uppity about the way buyers use them? If I designed something and it sold well I'd be happy if people used in whatever way they wanted. After all, a few more people might say 'I like that. Who designed it and where can I see more of their patterns?'
Look at it this way. Presumably there's some kind of copyright or patent for the design of my car, but the maker can't dictate to me what I do with the car, where I go with it, if I have it resprayed a different colour or who I sell it to.


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## 1artist (May 24, 2011)

Interesting to note, as an artist, I recently entered a show with my painting, and at that show the top prize went to a (xmas-tree shaped pile of crafted balls, inccluding a knitted one over styrofoam). Mind you the juror told us not to think of it as Xmas shaped! this woman PATENTED the process we have all used at one time or another, that of stuffing a small piece of fabric and tying it off to make a ball. She has a 78 step explanation. So beware the corruption (my words) of the patent process and stop making balls or the infringement police will get you.


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## knitsofacto (Jun 11, 2012)

zombiesue said:


> I am a little new to knitting  So the rest of you might just be immune to this, but I keep seeing this over and over again when looking for patterns:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would question the logic of the above. If I teach you to knit of course you are free to pass that skill on to others and charge for teaching them, that's knowledge. But a pattern is not knowledge, a pattern is a blueprint, a garment in potentia. If a builder builds a house for someone from their architects drawings would you think it acceptable for that builder to then go away and without permission build a whole estate of similar house to sell?


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## MaryTre (Mar 25, 2011)

The directions may be for 'a raglan cardigan from the neck down' but since I can't follow a pattern without changing/improving it I just don't pay attention to that 'warning'. Besides interpretation equals creativity in my book. I agree the warning is to make money by selling more patterns. Anyway, who wrote down the very lst sweater pattern? Everything else is interpretation, isn't it? (p.s. I'm in a cranky mood.)


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## kathiebee (Dec 11, 2011)

usafwife said:


> This is definitely a proverbial can of worms.
> 
> These issues.. it's so hard to see where the rules start, and where they end. Personally, I include on all of my patterns the note of: "You can feel free to make and sell as many items from this pattern as you'd like. Just please don't sell the actual pattern."


I don't sell anything I make, just give them as gifts. I have bought a few patterns and I would never share them, only let the person know where they could get them. But if it is a free pattern and a friend wants it, what is the harm of making a copy for her, as she could get it free on the net?
I have bought licensed sport material to make stuff for gifts, it says that you cannot sell anything made from the material, yet I go to craft show and there are items all over the place. I think if a pattern says not to sell items made for profit, then don't. Otherwise just don't share the pattern.


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## DonnieK (Nov 23, 2011)

I think it does not matter the whys or your ideas. It is the law and the designer has the right if they own the copyright to decide if you can sell a few at a bazaar, and usually give their permission for that. The laws are made for everyone and not for just those who agree or not. A designer puts in long and many many hours to create the design. I think we should all respect their rights to own that pattern in its entirity. If someone disagrees with the copyright law, then take it to court and fight for your rights to end the law. But, I don't think anyone has the right to break the law because they don't agree with it.
Take the right path and discuss your concern with the designer. You may find that they don't care if you sell the items at a bazaar, they just don't want you to mass produce, and they DON'T want their patterns being sold by someone and making profits from the pattern instead of them being able to sell the pattern. Also, I think they would like credit for being the designer. I have never come across a designer, when asked, to deny me the right to sell some of the items I have made from the pattern. Respect the designers rights and keep the laws of the land.


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## dalex1945 (Sep 28, 2011)

Since I don't sell my work, I am not bothered by the copyright language at the bottom of some patterns. However, when I knit from a pattern, I almost always change some part of the pattern to suit my personal preference. Maybe a different border, or adding some decreases at the waist for better fit, or changing a collar. So now the finished product is different from the copyrighted pattern, so essentially it is my own design and if I wanted to sell it, I don't believe I would be violating any copyright laws.


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## DonnieK (Nov 23, 2011)

DenzelsMa said:


> swampygirl said:
> 
> 
> > Well said, DenzelsMa.
> ...


So, do you just sit around and try to figure ways to get around the laws that are written? If you don't agree with a law take it to court. And, no, I think you are being extreme, but try making a car just like that car maker and your butt would be tied up in court for years. Just follow the law. If you don't like the law, then don't make the item, find something else to make and sell. If you would take as much time contacting the designer as you did to write your message, you would probably find them very agreeable to your selling a few of the items you made from their pattern.


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## nannymarg (Aug 16, 2011)

I am in total agreement with you Zombisue. I recently bought a pattern and it said I had free will of what to do with the product knitted from it, and I could sell the product if I chose to, but was asked not to copy the pattern and pass it on. I thought this was very reasonable and I could quite understand why I wasnt able to copy and distribute the pattern around. I will definitely buy more patterns from them again because I do intend to sell the knitted product after making it, so hence more custom for the designer. If only other designers realised that they would get more customers if they allowed the knitted items from patterns to be sold on. The only trouble is Ive forgotten which pattern it was and where I got it from, so Ill have to have a good search and let you all know.


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## carolky (May 3, 2011)

Haven't read each entry, so I may be duplicating someone else's thoughts...for which I apologize, but I wonder why those creating patterns don't just offer a license to make and sell "x" number of items for sale or require a royalty for items sold from their pattern. It's been in the music and software industries forever. That would be one way the creative process could be a little more lucrative.

People don't truly appreciate creativity until they, themselves, have tried to do that skill on their own. By attempting different things (knitting without a pattern, painting a landscape, writing a computer program, etc.), I have developed a strong respect for those who try to make a little money doing so.


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## HeatherD (May 20, 2012)

Little changes such as color are still in breach of the copyright.


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## sam07671 (May 12, 2011)

I just knit for family and friends. I buy patterns and I get the free ones. I don't post my finished products as I don't think they are good enough to do so. But if I did I would diffently give credit to where I obtained the pattern from. I would want acknowledgement for something I spent time producing and sharing for someone to enjoy making as I enjoyed producing. I do not sell any of my things I have made. As I said I just knit for family and friends and it makes me feel good to just make things for them and get the thank you from them.


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## dalex1945 (Sep 28, 2011)

I agree, selling or passing along a copyrighted pattern would be a violation of copyright laws. Where the confusion lies is with the product made from the pattern. Specifically, whether someone can make a profit from selling a product made from a copyrighted pattern. When in doubt, don't do it!


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## alonalena (Jun 23, 2011)

I agree with you. I never thought about patterns along these lines, but it seems that you have a very good point


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## Ronie (Jan 21, 2011)

I think this is a great question... Some who 'Sell' patterns are just selling the pattern and what you make of it is up to you to do with what you want... others are more protective of their patterns.. *The reason its a great question is because copywrite laws are very tricky and we get new members in here daily... so that being said some new memebers will not think or pay attention to the copywrite...* Also some of the sites that give us FREE patterns will not let you sell what you have made..
I agree with you Zombiesue that if we BOUGHT the pattern...... Made the project..... then its ours t do with what we would want.... Pattern makers don't see it this way... Personally I think the only thing they could possibly object to is us making copy's of the pattern and selling it... plus there is a percentage of what you need to change before it becomes yours and not the original designers... just changing the color or size isn't enough...

I just went to another post and I mentioned Quilting... all the years I quilted no one ever brought up copy write laws... hundreds of us quilt, show our quilts in quilt shows, and sell them... Are we in jepordy of being sued???? I don't think so... When a town of Sisters Oregon hangs quilts on every possible spot from one end of town to the other for their annual show and all those people are selling them and this must go on in other states as well then thats a lot of law suits... somethings not making sense here....


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## MrsB (Jun 3, 2011)

This is also true in making clothing from patterns such as McCall's, Simplicity, Vogue. The law states that you basically cannot copy the *exact* pattern and sell it for profit. However, you can alter a pattern in such a way that it is slightly different, a diffferent sleeve idea and sizing dimensions, etc. We've all heard of "knockoffs" in the garment industry and that is what they do when copying a designer original. So, one takes creative license when reconfiguring someone else's patterns and it's legal.


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## wtchgrl (Sep 19, 2011)

Poledra65 said:


> Oh Yes! People have been sued. On one of the threads a lady that someone knows is being sued. Also, if you want to sell something at a craft fair or on Etsy or someplace like that and the designer comes across it, be very careful, Disney will and does sue, they also win because they have the money to win.
> The main reason people don't want items sold, if they are selling the pattern is that they would like to sell more patterns. Most designers will give you permission if you contact them, they mostly don't want mass production from their patterns, they could do that themselves, they would like recognition for their patterns though, but some designers do not want items sold at all from their patterns. Just contact the designer, they usually have a webpage or email address.
> Lion Brand yarn gives permission to sell a small amount of items, if you ask them.
> I used to think it was silly to put this on patterns but as I am now designing patterns and would like to make some money at it, it is no longer so silly.
> ...


I think that your answer is well thought out and makes a lot of sense. I was looking for dishcloth patterns one day, and found several made with patterns, like feather and fan, that can and have been used over over and over again from dishcloths to afghans to sweaters. All they were (the dishcloths) were squares using those patterns with a garter stitch border. The person on that site *copyrighted* the patterns, even though there was nothing unique about them. You would be *stealing* her pattern even if all you were doing was making a swatch in that pattern for something else entirely. I would think that you cannot *copyright* a stitch pattern unless it is a brand new one that you have invented.

As a dancer, we often get inspiration for our dances from other troupes and dancers. If we learn a choreography from a workshop that we have paid for, the choreography is ours to use as we please, as long as we credit the original dancer. The same goes for learning from a DVD or You Tube. But if a dancer were to claim credit for a particular move, say hip circles, or shimmies, it would make it very difficult to choreograph a dance. But we ALWAYS credit the original choreographer, even if we change it a bit here and there to make the choreography our own.

If a knitter wants to have ownership of a particular pattern that they designed, that is their right and I would want the same thing for anything I designed. But it would be ridiculous to claim ownership for a basic concept, as sweaters, for example, all require sleeves of some sort, a hole for your neck, and a body. It's how one combines the basic concepts to create ones own pattern that belongs to the creator.


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## stj (Aug 12, 2011)

I think the REAL copyright infringement is when you buy a pattern and then reproduce it and sell it as your own design. That is definitely grounds for being sued.


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## pengwensgranny (Aug 3, 2011)

Copyright is a minefield.
While I have sympathy for the 'small' business trying to make a living, the big companies believe they can ride rough shod over the ordinary person.
A few years ago we had a case in the next town of a small business man opening a sandwich shop called 'Macdonalds' - his own surname.
Macdonalds sued him but they lost the case. The local shop was called after the owner and was not using the 'golden arches'. 
The court decided that he was not breaking any laws or regulations by using his own name.


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## love yarn (Oct 28, 2011)

the baby bootie pattern "christine's". my mother bought the pattern in a knit shop in nashville, tn. in the 1930s. i made those booties for my children in the 1950s and i still have those booties, am now using the same directions that i copied from mothers pattern for the grandchildren and great grandchildren. i am 80, my sister is 91 and is also still using the pattern. christine copyrighted it in the 1980s as her own.


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## alonalena (Jun 23, 2011)

I wonder is there a stature of limitation. How old should be a pattern before it gets public knowledge?


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## Redhatchris (Apr 21, 2012)

There are laws, but how many of them are actually enforced? It is easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission...


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## past (Apr 3, 2011)

Since most of my creations are either given as gifts or donated for charity I never really paid much attention to the copy write notes on patterns. However, that being said, last year I was asked to have a table at a craft show in the park I was staying in for the winter. I went back through the patterns of the items which I was planning on selling. I pull all my patterns off the internet for free so was able to go back to each site. Several patterns said that you could make for your own use or to give as gifts, but do not sell as the pattern is not yours (my paraphrase). A few of the sites said that you could sell if the proceeds went to an 501c charity. Needless to say, the finished items from those patterns went right back into my box for charity and gifts. There was one site that I have pulled several patterns off and that site said that you could sell on a limited basis as long as you listed the name of the designer and the sites webpage. As far as I'm concerned this is a wise decision of the owners of the site because now they are adding the possibility of increased visits to their site and ability to sell their items and patterns. One other site I went to indicated that you could sell the items as long as you included the name of the designer, link to their website, and you made a donation from your profits to their site and there was a donation link. I'm not sure how many donations they get. I knew that this was going to be a small show and I'd be lucky if I made $20 from anything sold, so I just stuck to selling those items that I had created using my own patterns. The few items I had that came from the site where they wanted just the name of the designer and link to their site I made small fancy cards and used tiny safety pins to attach the information as they requested. I don't know much about copy write, trade mark, or licensing. However, I do know this much. Any time that you ignore copy write laws you are basically stealing from the owner. It may seem like nothing more to you than taking a pen from a grocery store after you borrowed to sign your credit card receipt or write a check, but it does cost someone money in the long run. I can also say that when you are dealing with trademark or licensed items you are really running into a real issue. I know of a screen print shop that lost their license to sell and the owners were put in jail because they were using pro team logos and certain cartoon characters in their screen print industry without getting the appropriate licensing from the originating team/company holding ownership of the trademark/license. Have you seen those ads in the paper looking for mystery shoppers? I know someone who has one of those mystery shopper jobs. She goes around to flea markets, craft shows, and small shops in malls just looking for anything that could be considered violation of copywrite, trademark, or licensing.


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## laurelarts (Jul 31, 2011)

stj said:


> I think the REAL copyright infringement is when you buy a pattern and then reproduce it and sell it as your own design. That is definitely grounds for being sued.


There are designers who would sue. I was in the legal field for over 30 years, retiring last year. I know more attorneys than you could shake a stick at, that would jump on this at no charge to me. But it would sure cost the defendant much more that the price of a pattern. Is it worth it? Those who state they would share a copyrighted pattern need to think this thru. Once something starts in the Court System, it can't end on it's own, it has to go thru the process.


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## judygold (Nov 14, 2011)

Poledra65 said:


> Oh Yes! People have been sued. On one of the threads a lady that someone knows is being sued. Also, if you want to sell something at a craft fair or on Etsy or someplace like that and the designer comes across it, be very careful, Disney will and does sue, they also win because they have the money to win.
> The main reason people don't want items sold, if they are selling the pattern is that they would like to sell more patterns. Most designers will give you permission if you contact them, they mostly don't want mass production from their patterns, they could do that themselves, they would like recognition for their patterns though, but some designers do not want items sold at all from their patterns. Just contact the designer, they usually have a webpage or email address.
> Lion Brand yarn gives permission to sell a small amount of items, if you ask them.
> I used to think it was silly to put this on patterns but as I am now designing patterns and would like to make some money at it, it is no longer so silly.
> ...


Kaye,

Thanks for the link. I knew some of this information, but had no idea just how tight the restrictions were. I have contacted owners before I made items for our Bazaar and always got a "yes" (at least so far).

Judy


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## Torticollus (Dec 3, 2011)

Kind of like someone giving you a recipe for bread but says you can't sell it at a farmer's market?


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## Steeleye (Feb 26, 2012)

To me, this is important. If I create anything and sell it to you, then you turn around and sell it AS YOUR OWN WORK (whether you change a minor component or not), that is not right, even if it is legal. Now if you create something else, incorporating what I created into what you created, then your selling your product is okay - you have added value & should be compensated for your effort. Just my opinion.


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## mousepotato (May 30, 2011)

Vickie2249 said:


> I absolutely agree with you Sue(?). But I think that if you change a little something about a pattern that has these instructions on it and then sell it then I don't see how you can be in breach of any copyright rules. And the same applies, I would have thought, if you knitted the item in question in pink, for example, when the pattern is in blue (for example) then again, copyright is not breached.
> 
> I'm not even sure how a designer would know that these directions had not been abided by. I don't think I'm ready to test my theories though
> 
> ...


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## mousepotato (May 30, 2011)

zombiesue said:


> I am a little new to knitting  So the rest of you might just be immune to this, but I keep seeing this over and over again when looking for patterns:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know a number of well-known designers. Their patterns are their bread and butter. If you developed a certain technique and taught it to someone else for a fee, and then that person taught it, again for a fee, to a third person as their technique because they perhaps used a different size needle or different yarn, and failed to pay you a royalty, that takes away from your earnings. Most designers would have no problem if you knit 50 of their designs for sale, if you purchased 50 patterns, because then they do earn their daily bread as it were. That said, I have never been turned down by a designer if I ask if I may knit one of their designs to be donated to raise funds for charity.

As for changing part of a pattern to make it your own, the law says you must make a fundamental change to the pattern. Changing the color of the yarn, or the brand of yarn used is not a fundamental change to the pattern. There are designers and copyright holders who do sue (take Disney for example) when you use their intellectual property for personal gain. Again, would you willingly allow your intellectual property for free to earn a living for someone else? If so, then simply post your pattern for free on-line.


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## vpatt (Dec 24, 2011)

Steeleye said:


> To me, this is important. If I create anything and sell it to you, then you turn around and sell it AS YOUR OWN WORK (whether you change a minor component or not), that is not right, even if it is legal. Now if you create something else, incorporating what I created into what you created, then your selling your product is okay - you have added value & should be compensated for your effort. Just my opinion.


I guess I don't understand all of this. I would never sell another person's pattern or even an item made from that pattern if they didn't want me to. BUT, what if I knit something that is very similar and I've never seen your pattern. How does that work? And how do you know that your pattern is not the same or very similar to another person's pattern? I guess I mean that somewhere along the way two creative minds are going to come up with very similar ideas.


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## HandyFamily (Sep 30, 2011)

knitsofacto said:


> I have asked on my free patterns that items not be knitted for resale. I have no problem however with them being sold to benefit charity. I put a lot of work into my designs - to anyone who doubts that designing knitwear and pattern writing is time consuming and often challenging I say try it for yourself. When I make my patterns available at no cost to you I am giving all that effort away.


Yea... maybe we need something similar to GNU's General Public License (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License) regarding free patterns...

Perhaps we - the Forum - could start a movement in that regard... not just for knit and crochet, but patterns as such - for embroiderer, or any sort of craft - something like "free means FREE" project...
See Copyleft
I am a programmer - in the "other" life, the one outside knitting. And I know that when I share some code it will be for all to use. Why than if someone shares a pattern for craft it can be used for commercial uses... 
But there is the "other side" to that. If I edit a picture with gimp I can, if I want, sell it... it will not be seen as a part of gimp,or as using a part of gimp... so maybe making the item is like this? Than maybe the free pattern should be a part of it - like a label or something?
Hard to say. Just some thoughts.


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## HandyFamily (Sep 30, 2011)

love yarn said:


> the baby bootie pattern "christine's". my mother bought the pattern in a knit shop in nashville, tn. in the 1930s. i made those booties for my children in the 1950s and i still have those booties, am now using the same directions that i copied from mothers pattern for the grandchildren and great grandchildren. i am 80, my sister is 91 and is also still using the pattern. christine copyrighted it in the 1980s as her own.


Ha, how absurd is that!?


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## prairiemoon (Nov 15, 2011)

Poledra65 said:


> Oh Yes! People have been sued. On one of the threads a lady that someone knows is being sued. Also, if you want to sell something at a craft fair or on Etsy or someplace like that and the designer comes across it, be very careful, Disney will and does sue, they also win because they have the money to win.
> The main reason people don't want items sold, if they are selling the pattern is that they would like to sell more patterns. Most designers will give you permission if you contact them, they mostly don't want mass production from their patterns, they could do that themselves, they would like recognition for their patterns though, but some designers do not want items sold at all from their patterns. Just contact the designer, they usually have a webpage or email address.
> Lion Brand yarn gives permission to sell a small amount of items, if you ask them.
> I used to think it was silly to put this on patterns but as I am now designing patterns and would like to make some money at it, it is no longer so silly.
> ...


I think you described it perfectly! If someone sells a few items at a craft fair with a tag that says "pattern by whomever" that is one thing but if someone sells 100's or thousands of items that is a totally different scenario. But knitters, crocheters and seamstresses have always taken a look at something and then gone home and made one for themselves. And when the fashion industry copies designer clothes in a cheaper version for retail stores, how do they deal with the intellectual property issue?


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## knitknack (Oct 30, 2011)

Sue, I would have to agree with oyu. Copyright is one t hing, and they are referring to the actual pattern itself. But a knitted item to be sold is absolutely absurd as far as not being able to do it. You make the item, but change the front from buttonholes to a zipper, so does that still apply, I THINK NOT.
We have gotten to the point that you are afraid to do something for the fear of being found out and sued up the kazoo.
NONSENSE.


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## wittless knitter (Mar 25, 2011)

thanks, usafwife, my feelings exactly. don't think an item should be massed produced, however, for all of us crafters that sell a few items to friends or at craft shows, i don't think that should be a problem. if a designer is against that, i won't use their pattern, even if its free. the wittless knitter


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## PYRM (Dec 11, 2011)

ME TOO!! It seems to me a "cardigan is a cardigan", no matter which stitch you use to make the body, BTW who invented the different stitches. Are they copywrited? How can we use this lace stitch if we did not make it up??


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## Merrywitch (Feb 20, 2012)

The pattern people who put these restrictions on them are just control freaks - I'd say don't worry about it ! Anyhow, who makes something according to exactly what the pattern says, even one stitch makes it different if you make a mistake !!


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## hgayle (Aug 22, 2011)

laurelarts said:


> stj said:
> 
> 
> > I think the REAL copyright infringement is when you buy a pattern and then reproduce it and sell it as your own design. That is definitely grounds for being sued.
> ...


I guess my question is - why don't you want me to knit one of your patterns and sell the finished product? I get the part about not selling or copying your pattern for my own financial gain. And I'm not trying to be argumentative, just wondering about the reason. Thanks for your answer.


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## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

pengwensgranny said:


> Copyright is a minefield.
> While I have sympathy for the 'small' business trying to make a living, the big companies believe they can ride rough shod over the ordinary person.
> A few years ago we had a case in the next town of a small business man opening a sandwich shop called 'Macdonalds' - his own surname.
> Macdonalds sued him but they lost the case. The local shop was called after the owner and was not using the 'golden arches'.
> The court decided that he was not breaking any laws or regulations by using his own name.


We have a suburb called Hilton and in Hilton is a hotel called Hilton Hotel. When Hiltons came to Adelaide they tried to sue the Hilton Hotel- and lost because it was in Hilton and so was a reasonable name to use. The fact that the Hilton Hotel was there before Hiltons came seems to have been irrelevant.


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## Woolywarmer (May 31, 2011)

Vickie2249 said:


> I absolutely agree with you Sue(?). But I think that if you change a little something about a pattern that has these instructions on it and then sell it then I don't see how you can be in breach of any copyright rules. And the same applies, I would have thought, if you knitted the item in question in pink, for example, when the pattern is in blue (for example) then again, copyright is not breached.
> 
> I'm not even sure how a designer would know that these directions had not been abided by. I don't think I'm ready to test my theories though
> 
> ...


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## leslie41447 (Feb 7, 2011)

I am in agreement... unless the pattern writer has a legal copyright in place concerning said pattern it should be available to be used in any way available. I think a lot of designors just tack that on... to look professional! They probably do not have a legal copyright on that pattern.


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## dransom42 (Mar 26, 2011)

I totally agree with you - especially if you pay for a pattern. That's like saying to an architect that you can design a house and I can build it but can't sell it! I think if I pay money for a pattern it is mine to do as I see fit.


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## kathiebee (Dec 11, 2011)

So you just give your finished product away to a friend or donate them to a charity bazaar, but you have no control over the person that gets it from them reselling it. When I die, who is going to go thru my pattern stash and see which ones can be sold and which can't? I am sure that is where a lot of thrift stores get their patterns.
On another note, I do a lot of things on the computer, you always have to read and sign the license agreement, that it is for your personal use. So if I make anything, it is a gift.


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## knitsofacto (Jun 11, 2012)

I guess it comes down to what I said before. A pattern is a blueprint, a garment in potentia. If a builder builds a house for someone from their architects drawings would you think it acceptable for that builder to then go away and without permission build a whole estate of similar house to sell?

Not saying I always apply this to my own patterns - most of my stuff is free to those who ask nicely and give credit - but I defend the right of those who do to do so. Copyright law is clear that the houses, knitted garments etc. are copyright, not just the blueprints/patterns.


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## MrsB (Jun 3, 2011)

On a segment of the show, "So You Think You Can Dance", there was a duo of guys who had copied a YouTube video of two other guys dancing to a song. The moves were exactly the way the YouTube duo had choreographed their piece. Nigel Lithgow (the head of SYTYCD) mentioned that he remembered these guys on the show getting into copyrighting trouble for basically stealing their routine. The guys claimed they didn't mean to steal the moves but it was just a way of paying "homage" to them. Right. I didn't know that a choreographed piece was under copyrighting laws, too.


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## Bethknits79 (Jul 19, 2011)

This seems to be a hot topic around here!! I see it on this site all the time. I mostly knit for my own or my family's use, however, I have sold a few, very few things at craft fairs. I do have an etsy store where I sell dishcloths and ruffle scarves. The dishcloths are made from patterns that I bought from a designer. The designer said that I could do what I wished with the products I made from her patterns but to please include her name. So I put her name as the designer right in the description of the dishcloths. That being said, unless I intend to only use a pattern for personal use I do not buy patterns or use free ones with selling restrictions. If I really LOVE a pattern I may try to contact the designer to see if they care if I put my finished item from their pattern on etsy or sell at craft fairs.


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## price90210 (Jan 24, 2012)

I crocheted a baby blanket for my daughter with Winnie the Pooh on it. I had made the pattern myself. I don't see where I did anything wrong and would do it again if the occasion arose for it. Also if someone asked for one I would make it and sell it. I designed the pattern not Disney. I used their chacter but as long as there are pictures to follow its like coloring the page in a coloring book only with yarn.....LOL



zombiesue said:


> The Disney issue is different, those are copyrighted characters, not knitting patterns. A character is definitely a creative work, not the simple know-how of how to knit a thing.
> 
> You don't remember the title of the thread do you? ;D I would think it is very interesting. I don't see any reason for anyone to be mad at you rofl. Actually that made me laugh a little.
> 
> Do fellow knitters often buy a finished product in lieu of buying the pattern and knitting it themselves?


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## debbieb (May 7, 2011)

I think that it is silly and totally unreasonable for a pattern designer to try to restrict the use of a finished item. It's been my personal experience that the "occasional" designers are the ones most likely to try to dictate how they are to be used. I purchase quite a few patterns online and I can honestly say that I have never purchased one which has advised me of the restrictions until I have paid for and downloaded the pattern. I can only imagine what would happen if I tried to get reimbursed it because I wanted to sell an item made from it.
On the other hand, patterns by professional designers or yarn companies don't seem to have the same restrictions. I wonder why?


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## laurelarts (Jul 31, 2011)

knittingnewbie said:


> This seems to be a hot topic around here!! I see it on this site all the time. I mostly knit for my own or my family's use, however, I have sold a few, very few things at craft fairs. I do have an etsy store where I sell dishcloths and ruffle scarves. The dishcloths are made from patterns that I bought from a designer. The designer said that I could do what I wished with the products I made from her patterns but to please include her name. So I put her name as the designer right in the description of the dishcloths. That being said, unless I intend to only use a pattern for personal use I do not buy patterns or use free ones with selling restrictions. If I really LOVE a pattern I may try to contact the designer to see if they care if I put my finished item from their pattern on etsy or sell at craft fairs.


You are complying with the law. And that says so much about the kind of person you are. It is an honor to be in this forum with you.


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## StellasKnits (Apr 10, 2011)

With patterns that I write and offer for sale, of course, I don't want anyone to try to re-sell the actual patterns as something they had written but if you make something from one of my patterns? Meh! You bought my pattern, you do what you want with the finished product. The only thing I have ever asked is for people not to undercut my prices on finished items on Etsy and that was more of a courtesy than anything else.

I do think it is interesting though that with regard to one particular pattern I emailed a designer about I was told that the designer did not allow the selling of the finished product made from one of the designer's patterns. Then I see multiple for sale listings on this site for the same finished product with nary a word having been said. I dunno. Maybe the designer just changed her mind but it just seemed sort of odd.


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## Katsch (Mar 15, 2011)

HandyFamily said:


> If you buy one of my patterns and make the item, do whatever you like with it - ware it / play with it, give it away, give it to charity, sell it - it is yours and I don't care. If you want or can, make a 100 out of a pattern - that's ok with me. I would really be upset if someone starts a mass production - for this will lower the value of any individual item, but as long as you do it with your own hands, your customers are not my potential customers. If they asked you to make it, they probably can't knit / crochet. And would never buy a pattern... calling for a skill they lack.


Thank you Happy Family! I find if I want to make three four or five of one item and sell it I ask the designer and there has never been a designer who has said no and they have always been gracious to me. I feel the designer has the right to my respect and frankly I wouldn't go about it any other way.


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## Katsch (Mar 15, 2011)

prairiemoon said:


> Poledra65 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh Yes! People have been sued. On one of the threads a lady that someone knows is being sued. Also, if you want to sell something at a craft fair or on Etsy or someplace like that and the designer comes across it, be very careful, Disney will and does sue, they also win because they have the money to win.
> ...


My grandmother was a seamstress and she made all my mothers clothes from pictures and window displays in stores including the most beautiful wedding gown ever, that my mom looked lovely in. I don't know at that time if there was so much concern back then about copyright.


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## littlemissxmas (Oct 1, 2011)

OK I will say something here. When a person so called designs a pattern those are done with stitches they have already seen some where. They in most cases did not design the stitches we use to knit what we are making. And chances are those same patterns have been created by someone else decades before many of us were even born. So who's pattern is it really? It should belong to the person who designed the stitches we use to knit them. They are the ones who created the stitches in the first place. 

Just because you are the first to write it down on paper and get it into a copy write lawyers office shouldn't mean it is yours. Back then there werent copy write laws. Had our ancestors not shared their knowledge we wouldn't be knitting today. 

So who's creation is it really? The exact way it is lay'ed out in a set pattern may be yours but the stitches them selves are not yours. Does the family of the person who created the stitches come after you? Don't matter how you use them just the fact that you are using them is the same thing. You are using their stitches to create your pattern to sell. Are you paying royalties to use them? 

Garments are only so big and there are only so many things on the planet to put into an art form. The odds of someone putting the same thing into an art form are pretty good that does not know you or has never seen your work. 

The point of all of this is that we create what we see don't matter what order you put it in, it has been done some where before you saw it. So for most pattern makers to lay such a strict claim to it being just their own work is not accurate. Their request to limit you from selling an item made with the patterns to me is a bit much. With that being said I will not buy one that puts such claim on it. 

That would be like the company who makes knitting needles telling you, you can't sell anything you make with them. Or the yarn companies telling you, you can use our yarn but you can't sell what you make from it. Where do you draw the line? 

This is all comes down to greed and the person who has the most money to pay for the high priced lawyers to get more money. Where does it all stop? If the judges would take the time to once put their foot down many nonsense suits wouldn't be in court today. 

OK! I am kicking my soap box back under my desk now. Don't send me any hate mail these are just the facts as I see them.


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## honeydewhaven (Mar 24, 2011)

zombiesue said:


> Gypsycream said:
> 
> 
> > I don't really want to get too involved in this discussion because there have been too many similar discussions on this matter.
> ...


You say that you think that "most people" think it's okay just to send it to a few friends... I'm not so sure it would be "most"... "some", maybe. Yesterday, there was a post in General Chit Chat about an honest lady going back into the store to pay for a 69 cent garlic bulb that the cashier missed. The thread went on and on with other honest people who would do the same thing. I think that most of us regular knitters respect the designers and would feel terrible reproducing their patterns or selling their work without permission.


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## dachsmom (Aug 23, 2011)

HandyFamily said:


> If you buy one of my patterns and make the item, do whatever you like with it - ware it / play with it, give it away, give it to charity, sell it - it is yours and I don't care. If you want or can, make a 100 out of a pattern - that's ok with me. I would really be upset if someone starts a mass production - for this will lower the value of any individual item, but as long as you do it with your own hands, your customers are not my potential customers. If they asked you to make it, they probably can't knit / crochet. And would never buy a pattern... calling for a skill they lack.


I agree. Wouldn't dream of copying the pattern itself and selling, but don't really understand why after all of the work put into actually knitting it I couldn't sell the product. Similar to using an architects house plans. Of course this is all hypothetical for me as I don't knit fast enough to make money. Haha


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## HandyFamily (Sep 30, 2011)

knitknack said:


> We have gotten to the point that you are afraid to do something for the fear of being found out and sued up the kazoo.


What does this mean? I tried the dictionary, and google, and I got this








and while I am not exactly curtain what it is it does look like some kind of whistle...m definitely not law connected, so this up the kazoo must be some idiom I do not know. Would someone, please, explain it to me? Thank you.


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## Gypsycream (Nov 23, 2011)

honeydewhaven said:


> zombiesue said:
> 
> 
> > Gypsycream said:
> ...


Apologies you are correct I should have said "some" people not most. Unforgivable of me to assume most people. Most people I have come across on this forum are very honest and have pm'd me and asked if they can sell items made from my designs.

As I've always said, of course, no problem in an individual way, not mass.

Just do not copy and share or sell my actual patterns please, a percentage of the profit goes to charity the rest is my income.


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## craftylady49 (Dec 27, 2011)

It seems to me that most of the people who recieve or buy what you made from a pattern you bought wouldn't be able to copy just by looking at what you made because most of them probably don't knit. I think that's what concerns the pattern sellers because they would sell fewer patterns and therefore make less money.


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## pmarch (Mar 18, 2012)

I was at a workshop recently with one of the Rowan designers. He said if you knit anything and pass it off using his name, he would definetly sue! Meaning if you pass it off saying he actually made it. He sells his sweaters for. $1600.00 in up.


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## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

Leonora said:


> Some months ago there was a thread on here relating to a design that had been made by someone, and then sold on a website. Someone else recognised the work and who had designed it. They got in touch with the designer, and the seller of the garment is being sued in court for beach of copyright laws. You have to remember, it takes many weeks or even months to design a project, then it has to be test knitted by several people, then proof read for mistakes before it is printed. In effect the designer spends not only her time but money in getting her pattern onto the public marketplace. She has the right to have her work put into copyright, it is her work, and she has the right to say how her pattern can be used. You may get away with selling the designers work once maybe twice, but do not think for one minute you will always get away with it. I am a retired fully qualifed needle craft tutor, and as such I respect designers wishes. If I want to sell the products I make, which I do, I get permission from the designer to do so, and did so just a couple of weeks ago from a brilliant crochet designer of baby outfits.
> 
> 
> zombiesue said:
> ...


I see your point. I write poetry and would like to share some. I don't put them on the internet because I need to become familiar with copyright laws regarding internet. I sure wouldn't want to see my poem with someone else as the author, and I can understand how a pattern designer would feel the same about a pattern. We don't know how much work goes into something until we try doing it ourselves. Most creative efforts take a lot of hard work - just like knitting!

Zombiesue has a point - I think it IS hard to find the misuses of other people's work. Sometimes it even makes the news! That's partly because with the internet, untold millions of people have access to it and can usually copy it quite easily. As a teacher, I saw the copyright laws broken frequently - in the form of copying lessons from books to share with colleagues. Good intentions - but not following the letter of the law. The people who write the lessons want them to be bought - that's their "bread and butter." But - who would know? I guess you know if you've done it. I think we're talking about people making a lot of money by selling someone else's pattern as their own - not a knitter who sells a sweater she made from someone else's pattern. We need little Jiminy Cricket - he said, "Let your conscience be your guide."


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## HandyFamily (Sep 30, 2011)

knitsofacto said:


> I guess it comes down to what I said before. A pattern is a blueprint, a garment in potentia. If a builder builds a house for someone from their architects drawings would you think it acceptable for that builder to then go away and without permission build a whole estate of similar house to sell?
> 
> Not saying I always apply this to my own patterns - most of my stuff is free to those who ask nicely and give credit - but I defend the right of those who do to do so. Copyright law is clear that the houses, knitted garments etc. are copyright, not just the blueprints/patterns.


The low is far not clear. Not even your own low - let alone each one countries copyright low.
And as for your example, the investor that ordered the architecture plan is the owner of the architect's blueprint and can, if wants, to build a whole neighborhood from it - and actually often does.


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## Ms knit a lot (Mar 19, 2011)

What is the origin of "up the gazoo"

In the U.S the usual expression is "up the wazoo." It belongs to a class of expressions of which the meaning is inferred from the context. It is a euphemism for "up the rear end," or "up the rectum." The OED defines "wazoo" as "buttocks or anus."


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## HandyFamily (Sep 30, 2011)

Ms knit a lot said:


> What is the origin of "up the gazoo"
> 
> In the U.S the usual expression is "up the wazoo." It belongs to a class of expressions of which the meaning is inferred from the context. It is a euphemism for "up the rear end," or "up the rectum." The OED defines "wazoo" as "buttocks or anus."


Ooooooo...  
Thank you so much!
I would have NEVER taught of that!


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## nuclearfinz (Feb 23, 2011)

mandymoo said:


> I buy many,many patterns from loads of sites but if it states that you cannot sell finished item,I JUST DO NOT BUY,so they do themselves out of a purchase,their lose there are many many other super pattern designers that allow you to sell you can always find a pattern near to the ones that they offer,i cannot see the point of them even putting them on the site for sale.


Im the same way.


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## honeydewhaven (Mar 24, 2011)

Gypsycream said:


> honeydewhaven said:
> 
> 
> > zombiesue said:
> ...


Gypsycream...that comment wasn't for you...it was for the other person in that thread...sometimes we don't know who said what!

I have purchased one of your patterns (almost finished with my first bear) and would never, ever think about even giving the pattern to someone else. If they want it, I will direct them to you.


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## sarah66 (Sep 26, 2011)

zombiesue said:


> That is a good point haha.
> 
> And some things are like... I don't know. If I garter stitch a whole blanket, do I own all garter stitched squares? Haha. What if I get fancy and seed stitch half of it. Then I get fancier and add cables. Where do you draw the line? Just how original or unoriginal does it have to be?


And what about the traditional crochet granny square- can an afghan made from granny squares never be sold again?????


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## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

Just to lighten this up a little - before we sink again into the muck and mire of strife - I'll tell you what happened to me yesterday. I was knitting number six of twelve afghans for my grandkids. I'm slow - takes me a Loooong time. I love the knitting, and I make it wait until other things are done. Business before pleasure. I'm almost finished but had a little setback. Yesterday, tired from our vacation, I sat down to knit. I fell asleep half-way into a row. I'm sure you know what happened when I woke up. Some stitches were off the needle in my hand. In the fog of sleepiness, I leaned forward - and pulled off a BUNCH of stitches from the needle I had dropped!! Oh - I'm not good at this. So I pulled out six rows (160 stitches per row). Then as I reknitted, I had to stop to turn most of the stitches because I'd scooted them back on the needle facing the wrong way. Grrrrrrr. I must admit, my language left a lot to be desired.


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## nuclearfinz (Feb 23, 2011)

knitsofacto said:


> zombiesue said:
> 
> 
> > I am a little new to knitting  So the rest of you might just be immune to this, but I keep seeing this over and over again when looking for patterns:
> ...


True but the architect doesnt tell the builder he cant sell the house that he designed. Thats is what the original poster is protesting.


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## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

nuclearfinz, you make a good point.


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## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

nuclearfinz said:


> mandymoo said:
> 
> 
> > I buy many,many patterns from loads of sites but if it states that you cannot sell finished item,I JUST DO NOT BUY,so they do themselves out of a purchase,their lose there are many many other super pattern designers that allow you to sell you can always find a pattern near to the ones that they offer,i cannot see the point of them even putting them on the site for sale.
> ...


That makes perfect sense to me!


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## HandyFamily (Sep 30, 2011)

MrsB said:


> On a segment of the show, "So You Think You Can Dance", there was a duo of guys who had copied a YouTube video of two other guys dancing to a song. The moves were exactly the way the YouTube duo had choreographed their piece. Nigel Lithgow (the head of SYTYCD) mentioned that he remembered these guys on the show getting into copyrighting trouble for basically stealing their routine. The guys claimed they didn't mean to steal the moves but it was just a way of paying "homage" to them. Right. I didn't know that a choreographed piece was under copyrighting laws, too.


Well... Imagine they both the choreography. And in the end there was a statement "you can dance this dance, you can even perform, but only for charity and non-commercial purposes, you can't sell tickets for the show!"


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## nuclearfinz (Feb 23, 2011)

bonbf3 said:


> Just to lighten this up a little - before we sink again into the muck and mire of strife - I'll tell you what happened to me yesterday. I was knitting number six of twelve afghans for my grandkids. I'm slow - takes me a Loooong time. I love the knitting, and I make it wait until other things are done. Business before pleasure. I'm almost finished but had a little setback. Yesterday, tired from our vacation, I sat down to knit. I fell asleep half-way into a row. I'm sure you know what happened when I woke up. Some stitches were off the needle in my hand. In the fog of sleepiness, I leaned forward - and pulled off a BUNCH of stitches from the needle I had dropped!! Oh - I'm not good at this. So I pulled out six rows (160 stitches per row). Then as I reknitted, I had to stop to turn most of the stitches because I'd scooted them back on the needle facing the wrong way. Grrrrrrr. I must admit, my language left a lot to be desired.


My language would be fine..... My kitchen cabinet doors might now have survived


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## Vickie2249 (Mar 13, 2012)

Sue I think this has now gone full circle. Your original question was about a pattern designer saying you can't sell anything that you produce resulting from that pattern which, in my opinion, is entirely unreasonable. Gypsycream is also right because the ownership of a pattern's intellectual property and the copyright of the pattern itself is a different question altogether, isn't it!!

Good discussion though ... I enjoyed it very much.

Vickie xox


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## nuclearfinz (Feb 23, 2011)

Good discussion though ... I enjoyed it very much.

Vickie xox[/quote]

I have too, its nice to know I am not completely out in left field with my opinions


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## AuntKnitty (Apr 10, 2011)

I hate when someone feels the need to bring up this topic. There are far too many threads on this issue already.

You can have all the opinions you like, but it is a legal matter. Period.


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## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

Vickie2249 said:


> Sue I think this has now gone full circle. Your original question was about a pattern designer saying you can't sell anything that you produce resulting from that pattern which, in my opinion, is entirely unreasonable. Gypsycream is also right because the ownership of a pattern's intellectual property and the copyright of the pattern itself is a different question altogether, isn't it!!
> 
> Good discussion though ... I enjoyed it very much.
> 
> Vickie xox


I enjoyed your summary, Vickie. And now - The End?


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## Susiebluel (Feb 12, 2011)

I hear what you are saying but there are people trying to make a living from their work.

Susie



zombiesue said:


> Sue, Suzy, whatever
> 
> If I designed a pattern (some day!) I wouldn't care who reposted it or taught it to their friend or sold the work or whatever. I wouldn't even require credit. All I would care about is that no one claimed to have invented it themselves, that is just rude ;p


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## sqwire (Dec 3, 2011)

I feel the same way. I can't work but I can make a few dollars selling knitted items I make. Big deal. I want to post a pattern and tell everyone. Do whatever you like sell as many as you like, just don't sell the pattern it is meant for everyone's enjoyment for free.
Gail


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## susannahp (Nov 7, 2011)

I cant see any designer of a pattern worried about us the little people , Im sure they have bigger fish to fry lol why they would bother about the minutia of this world is far beyond me and thats why when this type of question comes up I simply tune out ...if ppl are soo worried about being sued then make one or two stitches different and voila problem solved!!


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## Cin (Jul 8, 2011)

I get it. As an artist, if someone bought one of my pictures, then stole my compostion to paint/draw one of their own, then sold it as their own invention, I'd be pissed! Especially if they made a bunch of prints to sell. While it may be a compliment to your work, it is stealing never the less. If they stole my idea & painted ONE for themselves or as a gift, it wouldn't upset me quite so bad. But it still wouldn't really be right. I wouldn't even WANT to copy someone elses work. But a pattern is meant to be used, which is a tiny bit different. Still....not to sell. Not without the inventors permission. Makes sense to me!


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## bretsfp (Apr 14, 2012)

I think you should be able to do what ever you like when you buy something, it belongs to you, to do with as you see fit.


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> One pattern maker has a very pragmatic attitude about the whole subject and writes this on the patterns sold:
> "This pattern cannot be reproduced without permission from numma numma llc. If you can use this pattern to produce items for sale and make money knitting - go for it!"
> 
> There are damned few knitters actually making money at knitting!
> ...


Jessica Jean, You said it! regarding knitters actually making money at knitting. It's not possible!


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## Izziebear (Dec 31, 2011)

zombiesue said:


> I am a little new to knitting  So the rest of you might just be immune to this, but I keep seeing this over and over again when looking for patterns:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does anyone remember the law suit about George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord", vs. "He's so Fine"? The court finally decided that Harrison had plagiarised the song. Harrison agreed that he might have subconsciously plagiarised it.

I designed some little baby hats, and sold maybe half a dozen. Later I saw a similar design. Had I seen it before and subconsciously copied it? Or are there only so many ways to make a baby hat? I don't know. That was the only time I've sold anything, so I don't think I'm likely to get sued. Most of my work goes to family, friends, or charity.

I have a favorite baby blanket pattern that my mother used over 30 years ago, and I made for every baby shower. If someone asked me to make one, and paid me for the yarn and a little extra for my time, would that violate the copyright?

I don't knit fast enough to turn my knitting into a busines.


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## Boggled (Sep 3, 2011)

I have a problem when others try to scare people into doing what they believe is right or wrong, and I think by threatening that one can be sued and implying that it will cost them an arm and a leg if this happens, is something I do not like. Therefore, that is the only reason I am writing this. I have actually talked to a patent/copyright lawyer when my husband and I patented something a few years ago. Regardless of whether you think it is right or wrong to produce a garment from another's pattern, here are the facts. The ONLY thing one can sue for is the PROFIT lost to them by someone infringing on their copyright. Everyone keeps bringing up Disney. Well, Disney makes a LOT of profit on anything that has their characters on them. However, let's take the following scenario in regards to a designer who has sold me a sweater pattern, and I am one who believes that making a sweater from the pattern and selling that sweater it is not wrong. Well, if I AM wrong, here are some facts a lawyer would consider if a designer tried to sue me. Let's say I made sweaters from a pattern I bought, and I sold the sweaters at a craft fair. If it cost me $20 in materials and I sold the sweaters for $50 each, that would be a profit of $30 in my pocket. For arguments sake, I will assume the worst and say that my time in making the sweater was not taken into account in the court of laws. Let's say I actually sold 500 sweaters. Are you all laughing yet? IF I were infringing on the designers copyrights, they could sue me. However, let's see if it would actually be worth it. In my scenario above, my profit on 500 sweaters would be $15,000.00 (Now get up off the floor from laughing so hard.) However, the designer would NOT get that amount because they are ONLY entitled to the amount of profit they have lost by me selling these sweaters. Disney would get that amount because they have copyrighted ALL items sold with their characters on them, and I would be taking their profit by producing them. Since the designer of the knitted sweater is only selling the pattern, they ONLY get the profit they would have lost from their pattern. Let's say they sold the pattern for $10.00 (totally ridiculous amount, I know), that would mean we would start with a possible $5,000.00 lost revenue for the designer. They would not have lost $15,000.00 in sales, like Disney would have, but they would only have lost the amount they would have received for the pattern they sold. However, please keep reading because $5,000.00 is in NO way the amount I would have to pay to the designer. Since there is only 16% of Americans who know how to knit (Google it), the amount of potential customers the designer could have sold her pattern to would be 80, which is 16% of the 500 sweaters I sold. The other 420 customers would have never bought the pattern since they do not know how to knit, and therefore, are not potential lost revenue for the designer. Now, you also have to allot for the fact that NOT every single knitter who goes onto the designers website will actually purchase a pattern. Let's say, for arguments sake, that 10% of every hit on their website purchased a pattern (this is more than double the studies that have been done), this would mean that they would have only lost a potential $50.00 in profit. Even if 100% of knitters would have bought the pattern, that is still only $800.00 in lost profit. Well, I would probably not have a problem paying for a lawyer AND the $800.00 back to the designer out of the $15,000.00 I profited. Since we all know that there is probably not even a possibility that I would profit that much, I do not see any designer who is an actual business person, spending the money on a lawyer to recoup the pennies they would get from me if they were crazy enough to try and sue me. As a matter of fact, I would venture to say that they would actually lose money by suing me because it would cost a LOT more for the lawyer than they would get from me. Therefore, do not let fear convince you one way or the other in what YOU think is right. If you think it is wrong, based on your research into copyright laws, do not sell the item produced by the pattern you bought from a knitting designer. If you do not think it is wrong, based on your research into copyright laws, go ahead and sell the items you produce from a pattern you bought from a knitting designer. They got their money either way.


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## tbforest (Feb 25, 2012)

How would you feel if you designed something and suddenly it was mass produced, you saw your design popping up in retail stores everywhere without any credit given to you for the design? Or anything financial either. I've suspected that has happened a few times over the past few years.


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## Lady Kaira (Jan 11, 2012)

The ones that get me are the ones that claim the copyright to patterns that my grandmother had gotten from the wrappers of balls of thread. Just for reference here I am 63 yrs. young. What happens if I use one of her patterns and the new person calls me on a copyright.


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## Bluebird52 (Jun 11, 2012)

Yep... as an old contract administrator.. I have seen many patons lapse. They do expire ya'll know this..eventually. 

Look at it this way.. when a talented person dies.. imitators try to take their place. 
The only thing unique is YOU.. 

It's like a recipe.. handed down. It has been made over and over again.. however, still not the same as when great grandma made it. 

That's because only she knew when the dish was perfect to 'her' standard. Same goes for the art of knitting. I call it an art.


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## AuntKnitty (Apr 10, 2011)

tbforest said:


> How would you feel if you designed something and suddenly it was mass produced, you saw your design popping up in retail stores everywhere without any credit given to you for the design? Or anything financial either. I've suspected that has happened a few times over the past few years.


I know _exactly_ how that feels. Try angry, violated, helpless and like I never, ever wanted to trust anyone again. Thing is, I more than likely would have given my permission for being credited on the work. But I wasn't asked, I was stolen from and the company who stole from me made _alot_ of money from my designs.


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## HandyFamily (Sep 30, 2011)

price90210 said:


> I crocheted a baby blanket for my daughter with Winnie the Pooh on it. I had made the pattern myself. I don't see where I did anything wrong and would do it again if the occasion arose for it. Also if someone asked for one I would make it and sell it. I designed the pattern not Disney. I used their chacter but as long as there are pictures to follow its like coloring the page in a coloring book only with yarn.....LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Winnie the Pooh is NOT a Disney character.
A person called A. A. Milne - a writer, a poet, a journalist, a father to Cristopher Robin and... Pooh - created him. HE made the original drownings, not Walt. And not some working for Disney. And unless you made the absurd tail-jumping Disney's Tigger does or the even absurder Elephant... no one can claim ownership to these drawings. Not since the death of their father.

Here is the real Pooh - and his real friend, Cristopher Robin, the way he was... when they were, when they lived in the 100 Aker Wood.










Here they are - all their friends. The original ones. Take some time to look at them, to enjoy them... and to treasure them.
https://www.google.bg/search?q=a.a.milne+winnie+the+pooh&hl=bg&prmd=imvnsbo&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NxbWT6KABYPMmAXfy6SiAw&ved=0CFsQsAQ&biw=1059&bih=877

Wherever they go, and whatever happens to them on the way, in that enchanted place on the top of the forest, a little boy and his Bear will always be playing.


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

To Handy Family -You are so right about this. Thank you for your post!


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## Bluebird52 (Jun 11, 2012)

Yes.. hand made knits aren't in great demand today. The stuff that is in demand is the love that goes into the art of making a creation. When I see someone wearing my stuff.. that IS the reward. And when I make a baby outfit.. I always think of the baby who will be wearing it.. while knitting it. 

Some people have made livings out of it.. It's a very hard market to capture. 

Word of mouth is the only way to make $ on a garment. Only the very rich can afford to commission someone for their time and talent. Bill Cosby wore $300-1000 sweaters on his show..


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## HandyFamily (Sep 30, 2011)

gypsie said:


> To Handy Family -You are so right about this. Thank you for your post!


You are so welcome...
We should treasure these books - the timeless...
I love Disney's movies - but NOT these ones, they are so close to plagiarism I can hardly think of a closer place. :thumbdown:


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## Bluebird52 (Jun 11, 2012)

BAM! You just WON this thread... pooh, like a secret recipe, has changed over the years. 

Lawyers need livings as well.. One thing they can't copyright is the brain..


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## MrsB (Jun 3, 2011)

Knitter's Review has some interesting information of Copyright Laws do's and don't's

http://www.knittersreview.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=73157&whichpage=2


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## loopingrope (Nov 18, 2011)

Zombiesue, I am gifted somewhat, when I have a problem I take it to bed and in my dreams I solve the problem, later own sometimes I see where someone has done it before me and copy writed it, who is going to see that I have used someones elses way of doing. Will the FBI come and search my hard drive to see if I have stold their problem, I think not, and how many people would see a sweator and say, she used someone elses patterns and I would get fined. Maybe if it was the Atomic Bomb the FBI would care as would other people. Seems it would be a hard thing to prove. So go for it. LOL


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

knitsofacto said:


> I guess it comes down to what I said before. A pattern is a blueprint, a garment in potentia. If a builder builds a house for someone from their architects drawings would you think it acceptable for that builder to then go away and without permission build a whole estate of similar house to sell?
> 
> Not saying I always apply this to my own patterns - most of my stuff is free to those who ask nicely and give credit - but I defend the right of those who do to do so. Copyright law is clear that the houses, knitted garments etc. are copyright, not just the blueprints/patterns.


You _can_ use the blueprints to build as many houses as you want. You cannot, however, _resell/share/copy_ blueprints as your own as _they_ are protected, however you can _modify/sell/lease_ the houses themselves anytime you want, as they belong to you.
kat


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## Boggled (Sep 3, 2011)

tbforest said:


> How would you feel if you designed something and suddenly it was mass produced, you saw your design popping up in retail stores everywhere without any credit given to you for the design? Or anything financial either. I've suspected that has happened a few times over the past few years.


It costs over $1,000 to have a patent/copyright search done. Unless designers have actually done this or have looked at EVERY single pattern created or seen every item people have made in the past 50+ years, how on Earth would you know that you are not trying to claim something that someone before you has already created. Just because the item may not be on the market, does not mean that someone in the past has not already written the same pattern you have. I will go even further in saying that if you TRY to get your pattern copyrighted, it might be near impossible to do unless it contains some new knitting process or stitch that has never been invented before. With that being said, I know enough in life to know that when someone believes strongly in something, there is NO one that is going to change their mind. I am not trying to change your mind or anyone else's, for that matter. I am just trying to put information out there that I have not seen on any other thread I have read when it comes to this issue. People can take it or leave it.


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## Kathie (Mar 29, 2011)

I've read most of this discussion but not all so I'm not sure if this has been addressed. I bought a knitting pattern and made the article for myself and family. It was so popular I made one that I donated to a local church which auctioned it off. Since I gave it away, am I infringing on someones copyright? Several people have asked for the pattern and I have referred them to the designers website so they could purchase the pattern. I don't ever copy patterns and give them away or sell them but can't I give an item I have knitted to anyone? After that, what they do with it is up to them.


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## HandyFamily (Sep 30, 2011)

katrinka said:


> knitsofacto said:
> 
> 
> > I guess it comes down to what I said before. A pattern is a blueprint, a garment in potentia. If a builder builds a house for someone from their architects drawings would you think it acceptable for that builder to then go away and without permission build a whole estate of similar house to sell?
> ...


You can make more houses, if you are the original inverter.


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## Palenque1978 (Feb 16, 2011)

Poledra65 said:


> Oh Yes! People have been sued. On one of the threads a lady that someone knows is being sued. Also, if you want to sell something at a craft fair or on Etsy or someplace like that and the designer comes across it, be very careful, Disney will and does sue, they also win because they have the money to win.
> The main reason people don't want items sold, if they are selling the pattern is that they would like to sell more patterns. Most designers will give you permission if you contact them, they mostly don't want mass production from their patterns, they could do that themselves, they would like recognition for their patterns though, but some designers do not want items sold at all from their patterns. Just contact the designer, they usually have a webpage or email address.
> Lion Brand yarn gives permission to sell a small amount of items, if you ask them.
> I used to think it was silly to put this on patterns but as I am now designing patterns and would like to make some money at it, it is no longer so silly.
> ...


Good post; I agree with you.

I was going to mention Disney... but, zombiesue clarified why we can't SELL knitted items with Disney characters on them. It's not the knitted sweater but the character itself... it's their property. They send their Disney "police" to fairs and places where such items may appear... for sale. It's a total no no... and they'll press charges and fine you.


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## katrinka (Sep 27, 2011)

HandyFamily said:


> katrinka said:
> 
> 
> > knitsofacto said:
> ...


You are correct; I changed my original post.
kat


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## denisejh (May 20, 2011)

zombiesue-We have discussed, argued over, fought, snipped at, and gotten downright nasty over the copyright issue (ad nauseaum-did I spell that right?) and we haven't progressed any further than where we are right now. I don't think we ever will. Go to the top of the page and search copyright. You can read all the stuff we've written. Denise


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## kentish lady (Jun 10, 2011)

these pattern designers when selling their patterns on ebay esty should state on the site ,before you buy the pattern 
''knitted items from pattern must not be sold '' not when you have purchased the pattern and its on the last page .as you can't read the pattern until you have brought it ,and you can't send it back .
if l am knitting a pattern or selling the finished item that l am allowed to, and someone wants it .l give that person the web site for the pattern .if the pattern is for personal use only and l am wearing it and someone wants to know where l got it from ,l don't say as its for personal use.(will l get commission if she made a sale on the pattern ) so l think that person misses out a lot as if you are allowed to sell ''items from the pattern she would get more people seeing her good designs,
as if l am going to make 500 of one thing.there s loads of thing out there to knit ,might only make one or two anyway .
Now l do ask before l buy a pattern. 

here s a question what if they don't say nothing anywhere on there pattern you can sell the finished item .what do you do then ?


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## zombiesue (May 30, 2012)

denisejh said:


> zombiesue-We have discussed, argued over, fought, snipped at, and gotten downright nasty over the copyright issue (ad nauseaum-did I spell that right?) and we haven't progressed any further than where we are right now. I don't think we ever will. Go to the top of the page and search copyright. You can read all the stuff we've written. Denise


No one is fighting here :0)


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## knitminx (Oct 16, 2011)

I sell my own patterns I do not write anything about not being able to knit and sell the garments because the garment is my advertising. I do hope but don't expect the seller to say it's from this pattern by Grace Alexander

In order for my pattern to become yours I believe by law you must change at least 25% of it.

Hope this helps..


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## knitminx (Oct 16, 2011)

Oh you do own the work you just don't own the design


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## susannahp (Nov 7, 2011)

tbforest said:


> How would you feel if you designed something and suddenly it was mass produced, you saw your design popping up in retail stores everywhere without any credit given to you for the design? Or anything financial either. I've suspected that has happened a few times over the past few years.


I dont think any of us lowly knitters and crocheters could sell enough to get into the stores lol we are barely able to get one or two items done , none of the regular crafters could mass produce that item, they would have to ultimately rich to do so ....!!!!


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## dwknits (Oct 18, 2011)

Thank you Gypsycream. I really appreciate your written statement
giving us permission to sell a few of your wonderful bears I made from your patterns. I would never sell the pattern. The price is very reasonable and everyone should be able to afford at least one. I have all of them myself.


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## susannahp (Nov 7, 2011)

dwknits said:


> Thank you Gypsycream. I really appreciate your written statement
> giving us permission to sell a few of your wonderful bears I made from your patterns. I would never sell the pattern. The price is very reasonable and everyone should be able to afford at least one. I have all of them myself.


Yes we appreciate it very much .....your patterns are simply wonderful , but I must confess that I dont want to sell the product after working on it lol I want to keep it for myself but I could give it as a gift ...


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:



> Gypsycream said:
> 
> 
> > The lady above who stated that if she bought a pattern it was hers and she would share if she wanted to, please don't buy one of my patterns.
> ...


I agree completely. If you want to make it truly yours, design it yourself; then you can do whatever you wish with it. Selling the work of others may not bother you at all--until you end up in court trying to explain why you stole someone else's work.....


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## zombiesue (May 30, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> Jessica-Jean said:
> 
> 
> > Gypsycream said:
> ...


I don't think she shows them I think she just shares them.

Woops, I meant, I don't think she SELLS them..


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

swampygirl said:


> I am fed up with all this copyright rubbish.
> 
> I have many, many patterns and I do what I like with them and have been doing so for 40+ years.
> I've not had my hand slapped or hauled into court for violating a copyright.
> ...


Perhaps it's pish in the UK, but I'd say you've been very fortunate so far.


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## zombiesue (May 30, 2012)

SAMkewel said:


> swampygirl said:
> 
> 
> > I am fed up with all this copyright rubbish.
> ...


This is typical, it is extremely unlikely that someone will get caught.


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## dwr (Jun 16, 2011)

I do believe in frugality and am guessing that is why some knitters share purchased patterns; however, that would be done at the expense of a fellow knitter. I feel a bond with all knitters and am THRILLED when someone can actually make some money off of their creativity/ work. There is an abundance of free patterns on the internet. Do we really need to take money out of the pockets of fellow knitters?


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## Beverly Jean (Jul 10, 2011)

If some one or some company does not want us to use their pattern to make an item and sell it then don't put your pattern out there for us to see it! Keep it locked away in your secret closet!

I also have another theory that I use often with recipes. I look at the recipe and use it, then I add /change it in some way to suit my tastes. I can say that many of the expert knitters here do the same thing with patterns. I am in no way an expert but I use a combination of patterns to make something fit better or to make it easier for me to complete! (Like socks!) :lol: That should make the finished item mine shouldn't it?


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## Wynn11 (Jul 20, 2011)

I don't think anyone should get mad at any one for defending their creation. Musicians, writers, artists, etc. all have copyrights on their products. Is knitting any less creative? I don't think so. Wynn


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## Alpaca Farmer (Jan 19, 2011)

My take on things is that I (the crafter) did the work and own the piece I made. I do not own the pattern nor can I sell the pattern. I do sell things that I make from patterns that I buy or get online for free. The one or two things that I might make from any particular pattern are not going to make me rich.


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## mathom (Jun 4, 2012)

I believe it is just basic decency to follow the wishes of the copyright holder, even if those wishes may not have legal support. Is it really that hard to be nice and respect another person's wishes without having to have a law hanging over your head to enforce it?

That being said, Probably the best web site (that I have found so far) for researching this issue is http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml.

Now I know that many of the designers who have weighed in on this topic will not like what they read there, but these pages include quite a few references to copyright law and lawsuits that support the arguments made. It should at least make for interesting reading if you have a desire to delve more deeply into the topic. If anyone knows of a site with a similar level of quality references that supports another viewpoint, I would be very interested in reading it.

I know, call me sick for being entertained by such a boring topic, but there it is. Perhaps I should spend more time knitting and less time surfing the web.


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## wetfeet2 (Sep 14, 2011)

This site really needs a like button! Like! Like! Like!
Kristine


Gypsycream said:


> I don't really want to get too involved in this discussion because there have been too many similar discussions on this matter.
> 
> But as a designer I think I have a right to an opinion. That is, if you buy one of my patterns, I have no problem with an individual making the bears and selling them. I have a problem with them being sold in mass production. To me if you are kind enough to buy one of my patterns, and you buy the yarn, notions and put all the hard work into making a bear then its your bear.
> 
> ...


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## knitsofacto (Jun 11, 2012)

HandyFamily said:


> knitsofacto said:
> 
> 
> > I guess it comes down to what I said before. A pattern is a blueprint, a garment in potentia. If a builder builds a house for someone from their architects drawings would you think it acceptable for that builder to then go away and without permission build a whole estate of similar house to sell?
> ...


I think you misunderstood me, that's what I said. The person who paid for the blueprint - the 'someone' above - has the right, depending on what the terms of purchase from the architect were, to build as many houses from it as he/she likes. The actual builder, the guy laying the bricks and putting in the pipes doesn't.


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## Boggled (Sep 3, 2011)

It seems to me that there are 2 separate subjects going on here. One is the copyright of a pattern, and the other one is the selling of an item produced by a pattern. I would never sell or give away a purchased pattern because it is illegal. Period. However, if I were selling an item at a craft fair from a pattern I purchased, and that item was selling pretty good, I would certainly return to the designer that I bought the pattern from and purchase another one. Also, if you are a designer and you are selling your patterns, then you would be getting FREE advertising from me when someone asks me where I come up with all the great stuff I am making because I would let them know about you! It would not hurt me in the slightest if they go to your site and purchase your patterns because I am mainly selling to those who cannot or will not make the item themselves!!! It just does not seem like good "business sense" to tick off your customers by trying to tell them what they can and cannot do, especially since you cannot enforce it. You are talking to grown adults here. I would certainly give my customers the name of the designer I bought the patterns from because I KNOW the importance of customer service and not trying to bite the hand that is feeding me.


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## Carlyle (Mar 14, 2012)

I copy patterns for myself as a working copy., to mark on while knitting a item. I will refer patterns to those asking about them.

I do use patterns from a stash my MIL had from the 1940's & 50's. I wasn't going to throw them out because I didn't buy them.

I have sold items made from these patterns at small Christmas craft fairs.


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## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

AuntKnitty said:


> I hate when someone feels the need to bring up this topic. There are far too many threads on this issue already.
> 
> You can have all the opinions you like, but it is a legal matter. Period.


That is true. And that is that.


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## cydneyjo (Aug 5, 2011)

Handy Family, I was wondering when someone would get around to who ever gave Disney the exclusive rights to Winnie the Pooh. Maybe the Milne family, but still....


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## Mumah (Nov 15, 2011)

I totally agree with zombiesue about having to worry about copy right and the selling of goods made from the patterns.I agree that the copy right should be respected,. On the other hand, I have seen patterns where the pattern designer gives permission for the public to use the pattern and sell the goods from it, but in return they ask that we let people know where we got the pattern from.
This is a great idea dont you think :thumbup:


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## price90210 (Jan 24, 2012)

Thank you for setting me straight.



HandyFamily said:


> price90210 said:
> 
> 
> > I crocheted a baby blanket for my daughter with Winnie the Pooh on it. I had made the pattern myself. I don't see where I did anything wrong and would do it again if the occasion arose for it. Also if someone asked for one I would make it and sell it. I designed the pattern not Disney. I used their chacter but as long as there are pictures to follow its like coloring the page in a coloring book only with yarn.....LOL
> ...


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## hennie (Mar 28, 2011)

DonnieK said:


> I have never come across a designer, when asked, to deny me the right to sell some of the items I have made from the pattern.


 I have even when I've sent them all the details of my charity work!
Most have given their permission tho, and more than a few have been generous enough to send me extra patterns.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Isn't rationalization a wonderful thing? We rationalize a subject to fit our own needs and wishes. However, whether or not you agree with a law, rationalization does not change it.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

zombiesue said:


> I am a little new to knitting  So the rest of you might just be immune to this, but I keep seeing this over and over again when looking for patterns:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with you wholeheartedly. If I purchase the pattern, the materials & spend the time making the item, why shouldn't I be able to sell said item? The pattern designer made her money when I bought it. Shouldn't I be allowed to recover my material & time money from someone who doesn't knit & would love to have the item & is willing to pay me to make it?


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## mousepotato (May 30, 2011)

kathiebee said:


> So you just give your finished product away to a friend or donate them to a charity bazaar, but you have no control over the person that gets it from them reselling it. When I die, who is going to go thru my pattern stash and see which ones can be sold and which can't? I am sure that is where a lot of thrift stores get their patterns.
> On another note, I do a lot of things on the computer, you always have to read and sign the license agreement, that it is for your personal use. So if I make anything, it is a gift.


Ah, but selling the pattern itself is a whole different issue. You then no longer own the intellectual property. Selling the original pattern and retaining a copy of it, is a copyright infringement, too. Is it splitting hairs? Perhaps, but if my intellectual property is used to make money for someone else, I'd expect to be compensated. This is different from a license to produce a product. Personal gain is the issue here, more than donations to charity. And that's the problem. Not many designers will refuse to allow their patterns to be made for charity, what they balk at is allowing someone else to profit from their work themselves. If you want to write patterns, and trust me, unless you become well known as a designer there isn't a lot of money in it, and sell the finished product of your own intellect, go to, but let the designer who had to do the math, design the shape, figure out the gauge and the needle size and the yarn, have the item test knit, and then have the pattern published before he or she made any money on it, earn their living from it.


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## grammacat (Nov 30, 2011)

Google copyright law re public domain. If published with notice and not renewed, after 28 years it becomes public domain. This should answer questions about patterns from vintage books.


Linday said:


> There are many discussions on here about copyright and there are many articles on copyright as well. Perhaps a search for the discussion threads will help to answer your question.
> 
> Here is an article that addresses your question in a simple way. There are other more detailed articles in the threads mentioned previously.
> 
> http://www.craftsy.com/patterns/search?fit=&sortBy=&category=All&name=gypsycream


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## donmaur (Mar 4, 2012)

most of us who sell work are using our own patterns


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## zombiesue (May 30, 2012)

bonbf3 said:


> AuntKnitty said:
> 
> 
> > I hate when someone feels the need to bring up this topic. There are far too many threads on this issue already.
> ...


I don't think there is a legal precedence for this. I believe that people can require that credit be given for the original pattern, but I do not think that someone could win a case about selling the finished product at all.


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## User5935 (Feb 9, 2011)

My take it this... if someone comes up with a pattern that is uniquely theirs, and they chose to share that pattern freely, then they are being charitable in doing so. So while, yes, the person who knits up the pattern after finding it is doing the hard part of knitting it, they should not be making a profit off of someone elses idea. That pattern is not telling you how to do a knit stitch or a purl stitch.... it is giving you which stitch and where to place each and every one for an entire piece. If someone shows me how do draw an elephant it is because they have figured out how to and I have not. Not because they came up with the idea of "the elephant". How to knit the particular stitches is the knowledge, one that designers do not teach you before sharing their patterns. When and where to put them is the art within the work. The idea for that art is theirs. If you were shown how to paint the Mona Lisa could you go sell it? No. And it is no different in this case just becuase the topic/item isn't wildely famous.
Does this make sense?


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## zombiesue (May 30, 2012)

MsMallo said:


> My take it this... if someone comes up with a pattern that is uniquely theirs, and they chose to share that pattern freely, then they are being charitable in doing so. So while, yes, the person who knits up the pattern after finding it is doing the hard part of knitting it, they should not be making a profit off of someone elses idea. That pattern is not telling you how to do a knit stitch or a purl stitch.... it is giving you which stitch and where to place each and every one for an entire piece. If someone shows me how do draw an elephant it is because they have figured out how to and I have not. Not because they came up with the idea of "the elephant". How to knit the particular stitches is the knowledge, one that designers do not teach you before sharing their patterns. When and where to put them is the art within the work. The idea for that art is theirs. If you were shown how to paint the Mona Lisa could you go sell it? No. And it is no different in this case just becuase the topic/item isn't wildely famous.
> Does this make sense?


People sell re-produced famous artworks all the time. I think you need a better example.

I'd say that how to knit a sock still counts as knowledge, even if the subject matter is specific.


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## tricilicious (Aug 30, 2011)

If I buy a pattern then I expect to be able to sell the finished article. I can understand not selling the pattern but what one makes is for that person, surely, do with as they wish. I have made loads of Jean Greenhowe with no probs. And I will make many others. If I get caught, I will plead insanitary!!


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

zombiesue said:


> I am a little new to knitting  So the rest of you might just be immune to this, but I keep seeing this over and over again when looking for patterns:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see that you have scads of pages of replies and I don't have time right now to read all of them. So I'm going to give my opinion without having read all the others.

I respect the designer's copyright on their pattern and I don't share patterns that I have purchased. But that's as far as it goes. If I purchased the yarn and put in the time to make something from a pattern ... any pattern ... that finished item belongs to me and I can give it away or sell it to whomever I want. I believe there was a court ruling stating that the copyright does not extend to the finished product.


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## EweWho (Feb 9, 2011)

My first taste of this was when I was cross-stitching a pattern that had Precious Moments characters on it. The copyright stated that the work could only be used me. I could not sell, nor give away any item created from the pattern. WHAT??? I was making it as a gift for my granddaughter. I ripped out what I had done and never bought another Precious Moment pattern.

I was thrilled to see someone win a lawsuit brought by PM regarding copyright infringement. Fabric containing Precious Moment characters was purchased by a sewing business, who turned the fabric into bedding. Precious Moments brought the suit but lost because of something called "Derivative Work" which was defined as:

A "derivative work" is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a "derivative work."

It doesn't sound like copyright infringement is as all-encompassing as some would like to make it.

Just this week several stores in town were raided by the federal government and t-shirts were confiscated because they had the word "Thunder" on them. Even though they were designed and sold on a small scale by local artists (who completely designed the artwork themselves), it seems that the basketball team in Oklahoma City has a copyright on the word Thunder. They didn't coin the word, so how can they copyright it? This is the kind of stuff that causes me to just shake my head at stupidity. 

It was determined that the government acted without the authority to do so, but I don't know if the merchandise was returned or not. All I know is that there will be a bunch of lawsuits over this.

Oh, and I don't sell anything I make. I usually just give it away, usually to my mother.


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## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

EweWho said:


> My first taste of this was when I was cross-stitching a pattern that had Precious Moments characters on it. The copyright stated that the work could only be used me. I could not sell, nor give away any item created from the pattern. WHAT??? I was making it as a gift for my granddaughter. I ripped out what I had done and never bought another Precious Moment pattern.
> 
> I was thrilled to see someone win a lawsuit brought by PM regarding copyright infringement. Fabric containing Precious Moment characters was purchased by a sewing business, who turned the fabric into bedding. Precious Moments brought the suit but lost because of something called "Derivative Work" which was defined as:
> 
> ...


Thanks for your very interesting information! It certainly makes sense. After all, if you have an idea and someone expands on it, there's some point where it belongs to the second person. ?


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## clavettek (Oct 22, 2011)

Hi. I downloaded 1 pattern that said that you can sell an item if you made tags the said pattern by and their name. and knitted by insert your name.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

MsMallo said:


> My take it this... if someone comes up with a pattern that is uniquely theirs, and they chose to share that pattern freely, then they are being charitable in doing so. So while, yes, the person who knits up the pattern after finding it is doing the hard part of knitting it, they should not be making a profit off of someone elses idea. That pattern is not telling you how to do a knit stitch or a purl stitch.... it is giving you which stitch and where to place each and every one for an entire piece. If someone shows me how do draw an elephant it is because they have figured out how to and I have not. Not because they came up with the idea of "the elephant". How to knit the particular stitches is the knowledge, one that designers do not teach you before sharing their patterns. When and where to put them is the art within the work. The idea for that art is theirs. If you were shown how to paint the Mona Lisa could you go sell it? No. And it is no different in this case just becuase the topic/item isn't wildely famous.
> Does this make sense?


It's not that it doesn't make sense. No one was looking for a definition of the law here. We were just voicing our opinions about how we feel about the law.


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## Boggled (Sep 3, 2011)

Once again, having actually talked to a patent/copyright lawyer, the facts are the facts and the laws are the laws. I mean no disrespect to designers who sell their patterns for knitting or crochet items, but I have yet to see an item that is NEW and therefore is protected under the copyright laws. I mean, I cannot take a chapter from the book Gone With The Wind, a chapter from Pride and Prejudice, and a chapter from Green Eggs and Ham and put them all together and say they are MINE and nobody has the right to reproduce this collection. Designers can "say" you do not have a right to sell an item produced by their pattern, but that does not mean it is 'THE LAW'. If you take a sleeve from one sweater and use a punchcard to produce it, and take a collar from another sweater, and take a ribbing from another sweater, and use a punchcard design from another sweater and put it all together, I am sorry to tell you that it is NOT your design. There has already been someone who created that sleeve, that collar, and that punchcard design. You did NOT create the stitch nor the design of the sleeve. You simply put everyone else's designs together. If someone wishes to PAY you for saving them the trouble of putting all that stuff down on paper, then consider yourself lucky and blessed. However, you did not design anything new, and are not entitled to the profit from someone creating the item. Remember, all vintage patterns from long, long ago are copyright free and so are ALL Brother patterns. Therefore, if there is any part of your "design" that is in one of those publications, you are NOT the designer. You are simply someone copying other people's free designs and putting them together to sell to the public.


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## zombiesue (May 30, 2012)

That could be true, but laws also change.

I guess I am mostly interested in the moral question. How much credit can you take for anything in a hobby that comes down to two stitches?


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## frankie2963 (Mar 25, 2012)

zombiesue said:


> I am a little new to knitting  So the rest of you might just be immune to this, but I keep seeing this over and over again when looking for patterns:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hi this article explains the copywrite in plain terms so we can all understand it and will answer your questions...what you are refering to is the right to control Derivitive works and this article also contains information on this...good luck figuring it all out because it can be really confusing...I still have to look it up to make sure I am doing things right...it also makes a difference as to when the pattern was published wether it still has a copywrite or not... http://www.yarntree.com/066copyr.htm check it out really informative and also has the links to the government laws themselves...


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## SharonK1 (Nov 4, 2011)

zombiesue said:


> I am more interested in what people think, not the actual law.


I see the reasonableness of a designer who copywrites a PATTERN, and why it shouldn't be sold or distributed to others without permission. But I would think what you do with it is your own and you can use that product as you wish. After all most people change things about a pattern to suit themselves, such as the color or kind of thread, size of needles, etc.


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## AuntKnitty (Apr 10, 2011)

zombiesue said:


> That could be true, but laws also change.
> 
> I guess I am mostly interested in the moral question. How much credit can you take for anything in a hobby that comes down to two stitches?


Zombiesue,

It's not a question of morality. According then to your logic, a dress designer ought not get paid for a dress design because "dresses" have been made since Eve and since dresses are essentially 4 pattern pieces (bodice, skirt, sleeve, collar). Same with shirts and pants and blouses and jackets and coats and hats and scarves. So how much credit can Michael Cors take for designing dresses?

How about quilt designers? Hey...quilts are standard sizes, usually a top, a filler and bottom, so since they only combine 3 layers, they shouldn't take credit for it either? Cross stitch designers? Needlepoint designers?

I say that you'd be best off to leave others patterns alone and start designing your own. If you don't want to honor the designer's copyright, then don't use the pattern. Period. And yes, I am getting torqued off. My designs have been stolen and mass produced and I got nothing and had no recourse because the thieves were in Asia.


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## Jamie (Mar 10, 2011)

kacey64 said:


> I design beadwork and have sold patterns from my website. A few weeks after selling a pattern for one of my bracelets to a beader in California, I received an email from her with an ad for a class for the same pattern I had sold her, to be taught by someone at her LBS. I contacted the teacher and she said she had figured out the pattern from someone's bracelet. Copyright infringement? Absolutely! My customer was questioning whether or not the design was mine. And that is the problem. The true designer's integrity was questioned. Changing the color does not make the design your own. And 'figuring it out' is copyright infringement.


On the flip side of this situation ... I envisioned an entrelac scarf with a leaf pattern knitted into each little square, found the perfect yarn, found a stitch pattern (from a purchased book of stitch designs) which was approximately what I was wanting, modified it until it was exactly what I wanted, and started to knit. About halfway through, I was browsing on Ravelry, and came across a scarf which looked exactly like mine, with the pattern for sale. So whose pattern is it? I sure didn't copy anyone, nor did the other pattern maker. And I certainly will take credit for the work I put into making the scarf that I envisioned. I think there is a real danger in claiming things as exclusive.


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## vpatt (Dec 24, 2011)

Q: How do you get a copyright? 
A: Copyright is secured automatically when the work is created. No registration or other action in the U.S. Copyright Office is required to secure a copyright, but in some cases it may be desirable to register with the U.S. Copyright Office.

Does this mean what I think it means? You can write a pattern and do nothing and it is covered by copyright? What if someone has already created the same thing? I'm more confused now, lol.


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## vpatt (Dec 24, 2011)

What if I knit something without a pattern, is that item then covered by copyright?


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## Boggled (Sep 3, 2011)

AuntKnitty said:


> zombiesue said:
> 
> 
> > That could be true, but laws also change.
> ...


Here is a link to a Michael Kors sweater for $95.00. http://www.michaelkors.com/p/Michael-Kors-Michael-Kors-Tipped-V-Neck-Sweater-SWEATERS/prod16130009_cat36004__/?index=0&cmCat=cat000000cat4801cat36004&isEditorial=false 
I CAN make that sweater and sell it without ANY law broken. As you see, it is a basic V-neck sweater and has not been "designed" by Michael Kors, which is why i can make it and sell it. I CANNOT, however, put a label on it that says it is a Michael Kors sweater. His NAME brand is what people are buying. He does not have the right to the design if it has already been created.


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## DenzelsMa (May 21, 2012)

DonnieK said:


> DenzelsMa said:
> 
> 
> > swampygirl said:
> ...


Just as well I work from my own designs, isn't it? Before you take off into orbit, please take the time to read posts properly.


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## deechilders (Sep 24, 2011)

Sue, I have been a needlework designer (counted cross stitch), and know how much work goes into each and every design that I make public.

I ask that everyone respect the copyright laws. However I put a twist on my rules- on most of my charts, I state that the needle worker must respect the copy right rules, by NOT reprinting, coping, or 'sharing' the chart that they have bought. But I also encourage the worker to use different fabrics and threads types/colors, to suite their needs. This means that they do not have to go strictly by how my model was stitched.

In fact, I love to see the finished work, especially if it is different than the colors I chose for the design.

I don't state it on my copyright, but I do not mind if a stitcher sells their hand made finish. 
I wouldn't want the stitcher to go into production and sell wholesale, though. LOL

I need to add that if a pattern specifically states that you may NOT do something, I would not do it, and would probably not buy the pattern, either, though. 
Dee


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## julietremain (Jul 8, 2011)

I knit for myself, for charity and make some gifts....I have never sold a knitted item...and I would never violate a copyright or disrespect or steal from a designer....However, If I wanted to sell items at a craft show I would be able to make a variety of fashionable and interesting items from patterns found on ravelry where the designer has SPECIFICALLY STATED that items made from a SPECIFIC PATTERN MAY BE SOLD!!!!!!! Do your homework....y0u will find these patterns...
julie


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## Dreamweaver (Feb 1, 2011)

I've read *most* of the posts here, but will probably be repeating some. Since this is *opinion*, not law, question, here goes.....

I do understand and I do respect copyright laws, for the most part. I do not do much knitting for sale, though there is the odd piece. I would *like* to sell my knitting and weaving. I feel strongly that the *work* and the creative choices of color, etc. involved should be something that I am free to sell. Aftter all, weaving starts out as a flat, piece of material based on very old basic pattern and theory.... not to say that new ideas don't exist.... I'm NOT a designer.... wouldn't know how far to go before feeling secure in it being *my* orginial thought... there aren't that many original thoughts floating around these days...

Soooooooo,,,,, I think you should be able to sell things you make, NOT MASS PRODUCE, but a reasonable amount. Take all the ruffle scarves that are all the rage.... Are those not to be sold? No dish clothes, plain baby bibs, a classic raglan sweater. I've done shrugs from a pattern that has been around forever, given to my as a typed piece of paper.... Well, I've since seen someone else use the same pattern... Is it copyrighted? Probably,... Do I feel guilty.... NO... It is so basic, plan and simple that I believe many, many knitters could come up with this independently.

Remember, I didn't say I was right,,,,, just giving my opinion.


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## KnitPicker (Jan 19, 2011)

I write and if I write a book, then someone sold it as hers with her name on it. You knit or crochet. You knit someone's pattern. It looks like hers. You put your name on it and sell it.

Same thing. Copyright infringement. If you use the knowledge to make another item that doesn't look like the original pattern, you have a right to sell that.

If someone writes a book that doesn't plagerize mine, they can sell it under their name.

Same thing.

You own the yarn. If specified. you do not own the pattern or the exact copy.


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## deshka (Apr 6, 2011)

How about just selling the yarn? so, it happens to be knit up. I know people have been sued and more will be, but my feeling is, you buy a pattern, then it's yours. Do with it what you may, except sell copies of it. Now, doesn't the resale of pattern books sort of come in this same vein? How about you give them away? loan them? allow them to be stolen? passed down from mom to daughter? how about auntie to niece? what is legal and what is not? do I care, --only a little bit. I still feel like whatever you buy is yours and you should be able to sell what you make from the book/leaflet. I don't sell much, most of it's given away, maybe I should make it clear that I am only selling the yarn.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

knitsofacto said:


> HandyFamily said:
> 
> 
> > knitsofacto said:
> ...


We need to be aware that copyright laws may very well differ from one country to another.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Colorado knits said:


> Isn't rationalization a wonderful thing? We rationalize a subject to fit our own needs and wishes. However, whether or not you agree with a law, rationalization does not change it.


I certainly hope no one in the USA suddenly decides it's okay to start driving their car down the left side of the highway, and no one in other countries where they customarily drive on the left decides to switch to the right because that's the way they think it should be, don't you? I'm curious about where the idea came from that we don't have to obey the law unless we agree with it.


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## glacy1 (Sep 30, 2011)

laurelarts said:


> knittingnewbie said:
> 
> 
> > This seems to be a hot topic around here!! I see it on this site all the time. I mostly knit for my own or my family's use, however, I have sold a few, very few things at craft fairs. I do have an etsy store where I sell dishcloths and ruffle scarves. The dishcloths are made from patterns that I bought from a designer. The designer said that I could do what I wished with the products I made from her patterns but to please include her name. So I put her name as the designer right in the description of the dishcloths. That being said, unless I intend to only use a pattern for personal use I do not buy patterns or use free ones with selling restrictions. If I really LOVE a pattern I may try to contact the designer to see if they care if I put my finished item from their pattern on etsy or sell at craft fairs.
> ...


So, if I buy one of your patterns, Are you one of the designers that would allow a few sales of the finished items at craft fairs?? I'm a slow knitter, and have many UFO's on my plate, plus many things in my 'to be started
queue, so it's unlikely that I would get many made, but would like the option to sell if I made a few.


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## glacy1 (Sep 30, 2011)

missvix61 said:


> With patterns that I write and offer for sale, of course, I don't want anyone to try to re-sell the actual patterns as something they had written but if you make something from one of my patterns? Meh! You bought my pattern, you do what you want with the finished product. The only thing I have ever asked is for people not to undercut my prices on finished items on Etsy and that was more of a courtesy than anything else.
> 
> I do think it is interesting though that with regard to one particular pattern I emailed a designer about I was told that the designer did not allow the selling of the finished product made from one of the designer's patterns. Then I see multiple for sale listings on this site for the same finished product with nary a word having been said. I dunno. Maybe the designer just changed her mind but it just seemed sort of odd.


I'm glad you said that because I just put your cupcake hat into my shopping cart on Craftsy. I just could not resist it. 
I had a friend make one for me a year ago for my newborn baby granddaughter, but she's a year old and now I think I need a larger size for her, but they are so cute that I might need to make a few extra and sell them at craft fairs. I have a pattern somewhere in a knitting pattern book (probably one of your patterns?), but can't put my hands on it right now. By the way, the one that I got before from my friend... where the cupcake connected to the frosting.. was not stretchy.. is yours stretchy right there?


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## KnitPicker (Jan 19, 2011)

deshka said:


> How about just selling the yarn? so, it happens to be knit up. I know people have been sued and more will be, but my feeling is, you buy a pattern, then it's yours. Do with it what you may, except sell copies of it. Now, doesn't the resale of pattern books sort of come in this same vein? How about you give them away? loan them? allow them to be stolen? passed down from mom to daughter? how about auntie to niece? what is legal and what is not? do I care, --only a little bit. I still feel like whatever you buy is yours and you should be able to sell what you make from the book/leaflet. I don't sell much, most of it's given away, maybe I should make it clear that I am only selling the yarn.


LOL


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## glacy1 (Sep 30, 2011)

Gypsycream said:


> honeydewhaven said:
> 
> 
> > zombiesue said:
> ...


Thank you for that. I have six grandchildren to make for and after that, I was thinking that they might sell at our local craft fair.. of course, I'm not fast enough to make much of a profit at it after buying the yarn, pattern, and time to make the bears.. and Yes,.. I bought each and every one of your patterns.. they are just too cute. I will pm you personally if I get to the level of wanting to sell one or two.


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## glacy1 (Sep 30, 2011)

bonbf3 said:


> Just to lighten this up a little - before we sink again into the muck and mire of strife - I'll tell you what happened to me yesterday. I was knitting number six of twelve afghans for my grandkids. I'm slow - takes me a Loooong time. I love the knitting, and I make it wait until other things are done. Business before pleasure. I'm almost finished but had a little setback. Yesterday, tired from our vacation, I sat down to knit. I fell asleep half-way into a row. I'm sure you know what happened when I woke up. Some stitches were off the needle in my hand. In the fog of sleepiness, I leaned forward - and pulled off a BUNCH of stitches from the needle I had dropped!! Oh - I'm not good at this. So I pulled out six rows (160 stitches per row). Then as I reknitted, I had to stop to turn most of the stitches because I'd scooted them back on the needle facing the wrong way. Grrrrrrr. I must admit, my language left a lot to be desired.


FYI, when you have them oriented the wrong way so that the back is leading, just knit into the back of the stitch.. you don't have to turn them.. I used to do that too, until someone told me about knitting into the back loop.


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## nannyberfa (Oct 9, 2011)

So you are not stepping on anyones toes, just change the pattern, a bit -that way they dont have a thing to say. Its just like song writing, you change the words and music and its yours.


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## Bluebird52 (Jun 11, 2012)

you must apply for a paton: http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/howtopat.htm

They usually check to see if your idea is the first of it's kind etc. There is also a hefty price to have that paton as well.. I have seen many people sell the paton rights to others. This is how big $ is made.

I don't know about ya'll... but nearly every pattern I have knitted is a little unique. It all about the 'cast on and cast off'.. I use several different kinds. IE crochet, russian, turkish, standard, etc. etc.

I really don't think most designers knit alot.. They may have at one point... There are so many different variations of patterns.. it is infinite.

Now, the yarns are a different story.. Secret to a beautiful garment is the quality of the yarn and the fingers that picks up the stitch.

No two garments are the same.. when it comes to hand knit. This is one reason why man had industrialized.

I just saw some sweet bears on this forum.. now those were made with love.. you can tell... really.


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## User5935 (Feb 9, 2011)

I would like to note, that if you SEE a pattern that is CLEARLY written by someone else, even if you COULD come up with it, or thought of similar things, the particular pattern you are seeing is in fact someone else's. I would think one would feel MUCH better about selling items THEY came up with the pattern for, or selling that pattern for the item itself. If its a pattern you have come across that you want to make and sell sometimes asking the designer if you can make a couple to sell works out. Or if you are asked to make something that someone will pay you for, and the ONLY pattern you find that works is one that requests you not sell it, explain to the designer, you may be able to obtain permission or come to some sort of agreement/arrangement. But if your desire is to FIND patterns that you CAN sell, you are better off coming up with your own or paying close attention to the fine print. I'm sure there are some out there that frankly won't care if you use their pattern to sell a few of at say a craft fair etc. You aren't about to make millions off of it, and as long as you don't go around claiming it as yours, some people wont care.


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## nannyberfa (Oct 9, 2011)

Its just like clothing designer, the original pattern came from somewhere. So if you make it your own, it is your own.


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## User5935 (Feb 9, 2011)

Yes, don't try to sell anything with a patent to it. I buy very few patterns as I typically change SOMETHING and not just to get a size right. I usually add or omit something. I don't see this as making the pattern mine since I didn't come up with the basic design I am working off it, but it is MY personal version of it, and I were to, say post it as "my pattern" on a site like Ravelry it would certainly be with the strong mention of who and where the original pattern comes from. While I don't know the specific details I know I found a pattern and went "huh, that looks just like such and such pattern with just the edge border changed" Sure enough it was, and the person submitting it said so and provided the link to the more basic pattern. I don't know if the two know each other and worked that out or what, but if not I think putting the credit where is goes is best. If not posting it on my own I'd post a picture of it as "My version of the _____ pattern" on that patterns photos.



Bluebird52 said:


> you must apply for a paton: http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/howtopat.htm
> 
> They usually check to see if your idea is the first of it's kind etc. There is also a hefty price to have that paton as well.. I have seen many people sell the paton rights to others. This is how big $ is made.
> 
> ...


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## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

"I will respect people's wishes on their patterns just because it is a nice thing to do, even though I think it is strange."


Just go with "strange" and leave it at that, there is no answer to this one!


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## janette777 (Jun 11, 2011)

Not only has this topic been chewed to death, but it seems the arguments of SOME people become more childish as time goes on. Anyone reading this thread through its entirity would think some of you were children in a playground. Law is law. Live it or change it.....otherwise, when the fire hits your butt in court don't say ouch! There are a lot of court cases going on over this very thing.


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## Boggled (Sep 3, 2011)

KnitPicker said:


> I write and if I write a book, then someone sold it as hers with her name on it. You knit or crochet. You knit someone's pattern. It looks like hers. You put your name on it and sell it.
> 
> Same thing. Copyright infringement. If you use the knowledge to make another item that doesn't look like the original pattern, you have a right to sell that.
> 
> ...


It appears to me that you are comparing apples to oranges and saying they are the SAME thing. Your written words cannot be reproduced. However, if your book tells me what colors to paint my living room and how to do it, even if there is not any other book in the world that puts your colors together and mixes them with a faux painting technique, I can paint any house I want and charge for it. I can even paint a room exactly like you instruct me in your book and charge for it without it being illegal because you did NOT invent or create the art of painting color on a wall and the art of faux painting. Those who write patterns for knitting and crocheting have NOT created the actual stitches, the type of sleeves, the type of collars, etc., and are not creating a new design. They are simply taking other people's designs and mixing and matching and putting them into 1 garment. I am not trying to downgrade what knitting and crocheting designers do. I think it is hard work and they should be compensated for the pattern they put together. The way they put their words together can easily show someone how to knit the pieces of a particular sweater or item, which is why their exact written pattern alone is under the copyright law. Since they did not invent or create the art of knitting a sweater, they have no legal right to the sweater being produced. They will not be compensated for me knitting an item based on their written word because they did NOT create the stitches they used in their patterns. Just like the author of a book written on how to paint a faux finish on a wall does not have the legal or moral right to be compensated when someone uses their instructions to paint someone elses wall and charges for it.


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## kdfigueroa (Jun 11, 2012)

Vogue Knitting just came out with a legal opinion about this. Best to honor the wishes of those who do not want you to sell items made from their patterns. There are tons of patterns that do not say it. Assuming I'm remembering correctly, the patterns are copyrighted, not necessarily the work, however you don't want to go into mass production. I was concerned because Etsy talks about intellectual property.

check out for more opinions:

http://www.vogueknitting.com/magazine/article_archive/ask_a_lawyer_knitting_and_copyright.aspx


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## kacey64 (Mar 23, 2011)

Jamie said:


> kacey64 said:
> 
> 
> > I design beadwork and have sold patterns from my website. A few weeks after selling a pattern for one of my bracelets to a beader in California, I received an email from her with an ad for a class for the same pattern I had sold her, to be taught by someone at her LBS. I contacted the teacher and she said she had figured out the pattern from someone's bracelet. Copyright infringement? Absolutely! My customer was questioning whether or not the design was mine. And that is the problem. The true designer's integrity was questioned. Changing the color does not make the design your own. And 'figuring it out' is copyright infringement.
> ...


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## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

They do say there is nothing that is new in this world, that may be why the more affluent designers hit the market hard before knock-offs arrive


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

Boggled said:


> KnitPicker said:
> 
> 
> > I write and if I write a book, then someone sold it as hers with her name on it. You knit or crochet. You knit someone's pattern. It looks like hers. You put your name on it and sell it.
> ...


I don't believe anyone has ever said that a knit STITCH can be copyrighted; I don't believe anyone has ever said that a particular ITEM can be copyrighted. However, the PATTERN or DESIGN of the manner in which the stitches are placed and items are made, if they are original, certainly can be copyrighted. I'm sorry Courier has not weighed in on this discussion since she has successfully sued for copyright infringement twice in the USA and won. She's probably sick and tired of the whole issue, especially since people tend to take it to such extremes. I don't see any comparison between painting a wall and designing knitting/crocheting patterns.


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## Dreamweaver (Feb 1, 2011)

Just to add to my earlier comment/opinion.... Of course I would give credit to the designer of knitting a sale item from her pattern. Where I run into problems with the law,,,, I buy many instructional books, plain old magazines, etc.... in many instances, there is no way to FIND the designer.... I want all designers to make money but I do wish that it was required to post contact info OR make a complete statement as to wishes, (even in magazines) so that I COULD ask permission..... 

Another thought, just as in software, within reason, I would be willing to buy multiple patterns of an intricate item for each one I was making for sale... I don't feel that most designers are going to loose out on an item I would sell though, because it is usually being sold to someone who does not have any interest in knitting it themselves, so no sale is lost.....


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## BarbaraSD (Mar 10, 2011)

I *so* agree with you!! But I'm not going to get in a shouting match with a couple of rabid members regarding this subject. Been there. Done that.

How many of us have sold cookies at a bake sale using a recipe from a cook book or made a cake from a Betty Crocker mix and didn't have to get *her* permission.



zombiesue said:


> I am a little new to knitting  So the rest of you might just be immune to this, but I keep seeing this over and over again when looking for patterns:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Boggled (Sep 3, 2011)

SAMkewel said:


> Boggled said:
> 
> 
> > KnitPicker said:
> ...


You made my point by saying, "IF they are original." If someone has created a new stitch or a new manipulation of a stitch, then it is original. However, as I stated, if they take stitches, collars, punchcard designs, sleeves, etc., that comes from a Brother pattern or a vintage pattern which are free and not under copyright law, they have not created anything original. Therefore, their written pattern is the only thing that is protected. With that being said, I am bowing out of this conversation.


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## DonnieK (Nov 23, 2011)

laurelarts said:


> Gypsycream said:
> 
> 
> > I don't really want to get too involved in this discussion because there have been too many similar discussions on this matter.
> ...


I am in full agreement with these two ladies. I personally know the hard work that goes into each of their designs. I know how Gypsycream goes 100+% to be sure that those who purchase her patterns gets more than just a pattern. There are free clothes for her designed bears, there are free instructions on putting each bear together, and detailed so that even a novice can make a bear. I know the hours that went into the new baby bear, and I believe we should respect the designers rights. I do not think there are many true designers if asked would tell you they would not allow you to make a few to sell at a church bazaar or use the pattern for charity, however, these laws protect designers from people claiming the pattern as their own and selling it to a large company capable of mass production. I always approach the designer if their pattern is something I truly enjoy making and ask permission. If they say okay, then I do. If they say no, I respect that and do not use it. Where would some of us be without the designers? I just think fair is fair. I could not look myself in the mirror if I knew I was doing something that was not right and I don't think we ever profit from doing the wrong thing, whether we agree or not. Support the designers and their rights.


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## BarbaraSD (Mar 10, 2011)

Don't you mean you would object to a "copy" of your pattern being sold? Surely you wouldn't object to the actual pattern, owned by a person who bought it from you, to be sold to a second person. This is done all the time on eBay.



Gypsycream said:


> I don't really want to get too involved in this discussion because there have been too many similar discussions on this matter.
> 
> But as a designer I think I have a right to an opinion. That is, if you buy one of my patterns, I have no problem with an individual making the bears and selling them. I have a problem with them being sold in mass production. To me if you are kind enough to buy one of my patterns, and you buy the yarn, notions and put all the hard work into making a bear then its your bear.
> 
> ...


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## PauletteB. (Feb 7, 2012)

This thread is like opening a can of worms. I will be following it closely. It is really interesting.


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## laurelarts (Jul 31, 2011)

glacy1 said:


> laurelarts said:
> 
> 
> > knittingnewbie said:
> ...


It's on all of my patterns that I encourage you to make as many as possible and sell them. I stopped selling my custom knitting and crocheting because I want my pattern customers to sell and I don't want to compete with that. So yes....sell the completed item. Just please don't copy, sell or share my patterns. It's my livelihood.


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## Bluebird52 (Jun 11, 2012)

kdfigueroa said:


> Vogue Knitting just came out with a legal opinion about this. Best to honor the wishes of those who do not want you to sell items made from their patterns. There are tons of patterns that do not say it. Assuming I'm remembering correctly, the patterns are copyrighted, not necessarily the work, however you don't want to go into mass production. I was concerned because Etsy talks about intellectual property.
> 
> check out for more opinions:
> 
> http://www.vogueknitting.com/magazine/article_archive/ask_a_lawyer_knitting_and_copyright.aspx


Vogue is in it for $$.. nothing more. A factory making the stuff is totally different market.. I look at this stuff like BBQ.. that one isn't patented is it..


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

PauletteB. said:


> This thread is like opening a can of worms. I will be following it closely. It is really interesting.


Yes, it is like opening a can of worms. Yes, it is an interesting subject. Yes, this thread has been done before on KP and got even hotter than this time. You might want to go to "Search," above, type in "copyright" and read all those responses from a different date from this one. Courier770 has a number of informative posts there, as do several others.


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## Hohjocello (Jul 7, 2011)

Think about this issue from this point of view...What if you made your livelihood from knit designs? Wouldn't it be only fair to seek reimbursement for your efforts? 


zombiesue said:


> I am a little new to knitting  So the rest of you might just be immune to this, but I keep seeing this over and over again when looking for patterns:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## frankie2963 (Mar 25, 2012)

BarbaraSD said:


> Don't you mean you would object to a "copy" of your pattern being sold? Surely you wouldn't object to the actual pattern, owned by a person who bought it from you, to be sold to a second person. This is done all the time on eBay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Barbra that is right if you owned a book and were done with it you could sell it second hand as you would in a yard sale but you cannot make copies of that book and sell them to make a profit...the same goes for patterns that are in books or leaflets...in digital form you cannot re-sell it unless you recieved it on a disk and you resell the original disk* without* keeping a copy for yourself...if you recieved it as a downloaded file you are pretty much screwed as there is no way you would be able to prove the file you sold was the original file you purchased and therefore you can't sell it that way even if you are done with it without running the risk of infringing on a copyright...as to selling the items made with a pattern...that is where the law becomes harder to interpret but i see it as the designer has the right to limit the sale of items made from their pattern as they have the right to royalties from anything made with their pattern the same as a songwriter is entitled to royalties from the singer who sings their songs....so always get permission from the designer with thier conditions and always get that permission with conditions in writting....


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## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

Are the laws the same in every state and country? If not, that would cause even more confusion


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## frankie2963 (Mar 25, 2012)

tryalot said:


> Are the laws the same in every state and country? If not, that would cause even more confusion


here in the US it is a federal law which means yes it is the same for every state here...other countries do have different laws but a lot of countries have agreements between them to honor each others copyright laws...so if you bought a pattern here in the US that pattern would more than likely still be covered by US law and you would still be able to be taken to court for copyright infringment...you would need to check with your own government to get all the details in your country....


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## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

frankie2963 thanks for your reply.
I do often wonder about some patterns that don't really seem "designed" at all, for example, I looked at one for a scarf which simply consisted of rows of double crochet, they wanted $5 for this "pattern". guess it's "buyer beware" for rip-offs like that
NOT that I am disagreeing with any comments here, everyone needs to make a living.
Have to say, I reckon any person who can design a unique pattern has a pretty special brain!


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## Jamie (Mar 10, 2011)

kacey64 said:


> Beading is different from knitting. My designs were all unique. Even my beaded butterflies, not based on real butterflies, but drawn by me have been infringed and claimed to be someone else's dersigns. One woman insisted she had designed one of my free butterfly patterns. She has now deleted it from her website along with several other items that were easily recognizable as other bead artists designs.
> Someone on this thread stated all patterns and designs should be freeley shared. I think she would quickly change her belief if she was the designer. If every designer, whether it be beading, knitted or whatever had to be offered free to whoever thought they were entitled to it, there would not be patterns created.
> My copyright statyement does allow sales of finished items from my patterns and I think the majority of designers do allow for that. But choosing to ignore anyone's copyright is dangerous to any craft.
> Hours and weeks go into the creation of a design and then creating the pattern.


On the flip side of this situation ... I envisioned an entrelac scarf with a leaf pattern knitted into each little square, found the perfect yarn, found a stitch pattern (from a purchased book of stitch designs) which was approximately what I was wanting, modified it until it was exactly what I wanted, and started to knit. About halfway through, I was browsing on Ravelry, and came across a scarf which looked exactly like mine, with the pattern for sale. So whose pattern is it? I sure didn't copy anyone, nor did the other pattern maker. And I certainly will take credit for the work I put into making the scarf that I envisioned. I think there is a real danger in claiming things as exclusive.[/quote][/quote]

My point was that it is entirely possible for 2 (or more) people to come up with the same design on their own. While you may be right that it might be easier to do in knitting than in designing a butterfly in beading, there are only so many colors (read stitches) which can go together in so many shapes and ways ... while huge, still a finite number.

Jamie


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## grammacat (Nov 30, 2011)

Google copyright law. If no copyright notice appears, it is immediately public domain. If notice appears and is not renewed, copyright expires after 28 years and it becomes public domain. This answers lots of questions re vintage patterns, pattern books, etc. 


Dreamweaver said:


> Just to add to my earlier comment/opinion.... Of course I would give credit to the designer of knitting a sale item from her pattern. Where I run into problems with the law,,,, I buy many instructional books, plain old magazines, etc.... in many instances, there is no way to FIND the designer.... I want all designers to make money but I do wish that it was required to post contact info OR make a complete statement as to wishes, (even in magazines) so that I COULD ask permission.....
> 
> Another thought, just as in software, within reason, I would be willing to buy multiple patterns of an intricate item for each one I was making for sale... I don't feel that most designers are going to loose out on an item I would sell though, because it is usually being sold to someone who does not have any interest in knitting it themselves, so no sale is lost.....


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## juerobinson433 (Mar 21, 2011)

Hi,I do not think if you change the pattern a little and do not advertise it on Ebay I think you should be ok.
I


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## spinthyme (Sep 1, 2011)

knitsofacto said:


> If a builder builds a house for someone from their architects drawings would you think it acceptable for that builder to then go away and without permission build a whole estate of similar house to sell?


That's like saying: A lady purchased a pattern for a knit sweater. Since she doesn't know how to knit she asked her friend to knit it for her. Would you think it acceptable for the friend to go away without permission knit up a bunch of similar sweaters to sell?

First off, ethically, she wouldn't have the pattern - it should have stayed with her friend. (A builder requires blueprints to build a house.)

And if she tried to duplicate it without the pattern it wouldn't be the exact same pattern because she would have, most likely made some changes that were different - even if it's just a stitch pattern or an increase or decrease.

(The builder can try to draw up plans of her own similar to those she just built, but most likely, she will come up with plans that are different in size and shape of some rooms and will try her best to make these work.)

She should be able to make as many of these sweaters (houses) as she wants and do what she wants with them as well. This is NOT the same pattern (house plan) that she just made.

As I see it, if she wants to make the EXACT same pattern (house) she should buy the pattern (blueprints) from the designer (architect). After that is done she should be able to make as many of them as she wants or do whatever she wants with them. She has paid for that opportunity.

... Anyway, how I see it, as a designer.


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## spinthyme (Sep 1, 2011)

DonnieK said:


> DenzelsMa said:
> 
> 
> > swampygirl said:
> ...


You sound like a lawyer...?


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## frankie2963 (Mar 25, 2012)

grammacat said:


> Google copyright law. If no copyright notice appears, it is immediately public domain. If notice appears and is not renewed, copyright expires after 28 years and it becomes public domain. This answers lots of questions re vintage patterns, pattern books, etc.


this is only true for items published before the law was changed you need to find a more recent version of this law....there have been several changes since that law was added to the constitution...


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## rjla (Nov 8, 2011)

Zombiesue it means: Do not sell for money the finished item at markets where you will receive the profits. But you can keep the finished item for your personal use, but then a charitable use  means you are not receiving any monies for the item and giving the item to a hospital childrens ward or the flying ambulance for the benefit of the patients use.


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## kiwi11 (Jul 27, 2011)

I soooo agree with most of the comments on this issue (non copyright) that is>>> can of worms? you bet>>>but just tweek or change a pattern/colour and it's yours to own/sell/whatever??? right???

Didn't every pattern start way back in the "dark ages" anyways?? they have all been tweeked from originals LOL i believe the only way to pursue the copyright would be to constantly surf the net to search for your (own) pattern LOL is just silly.
Copyright is different in every country, and cannot be enforced globally yet!!!
Sooooooo go with what you feel???


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## glacy1 (Sep 30, 2011)

laurelarts said:


> glacy1 said:
> 
> 
> > laurelarts said:
> ...


Thank you for that. I just bought and downloaded your Honey Bee Hat to make one for my granddaughter but it's so cute that I bet I could make and sell a couple more at the craft fairs. I don't suppose there's a matching sweater or booties? I think I can come up with something that will 'look' like it matches, even if it's just the same yellow yarn. 
The cupcake hat that StellasKnits designed is awfully cute too... My granddaughter got a newborn size but she's outgrown it, so time to make another one soon. 
Gloria


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## christine4321 (Jun 10, 2012)

sharing a pattern is fine, you are just not supposed to write it out if it is copyright protected. Sharing a pattern is like sharing a book or video.


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## DenzelsMa (May 21, 2012)

nannyberfa said:


> So you are not stepping on anyones toes, just change the pattern, a bit -that way they dont have a thing to say. Its just like song writing, you change the words and music and its yours.


That's one of the most sensible things that anyone has said yet.


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## vpatt (Dec 24, 2011)

frankie2963 said:


> grammacat said:
> 
> 
> > Google copyright law. If no copyright notice appears, it is immediately public domain. If notice appears and is not renewed, copyright expires after 28 years and it becomes public domain. This answers lots of questions re vintage patterns, pattern books, etc.
> ...


Q: How do you get a copyright? 
A: Copyright is secured automatically when the work is created. No registration or other action in the U.S. Copyright Office is required to secure a copyright, but in some cases it may be desirable to register with the U.S. Copyright Office.

???


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## HandyFamily (Sep 30, 2011)

nannyberfa said:


> Its just like song writing, you change the words and music and its yours.


If you change the words and music you will have a completely new song...


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

spinthyme said:


> knitsofacto said:
> 
> 
> > If a builder builds a house for someone from their architects drawings would you think it acceptable for that builder to then go away and without permission build a whole estate of similar house to sell?
> ...


I totally agree. At the risk of repeating myself, the pattern has been paid for, the designer got his/her reward & now the knitter owns the work because he/she put the time into doing it.


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## glacy1 (Sep 30, 2011)

kneonknitter said:


> spinthyme said:
> 
> 
> > knitsofacto said:
> ...


In the US, the knitter cannot copy or sell the pattern but can sell the derived work, i.e. the finished object. In other countries, this is apparently different, and the designer has a right to dictate dispensation of the finished object, from what I have read on this forum in the past.

On the other hand, if there's something that I want to sell a few of at a craft fair, it's common courtesy to ask the designer. If the designer has an issue, then there are thousands of other designers and patterns out there that will allow sales of the finished product. If the designer refuses permission, I don't sell the finished item, regardless of a concern whether anyone will 'catch' me. Honor and honesty is doing what is right, even if no one is watching. If we don't do what is right, with honor, how can we expect our children and grandchildren to learn from our example. We are their teachers! They learn from our example, whether good or bad examples.
Okay, off my soapbox now.

FYI: I am not directing this to anyone in particular. I just wanted to express my opinion. I've seen parents stuff their bag with snacks before going into a theater with their kids (against the rules), and then be surprised when their kids break the rules that they (the kids) don't agree with.. Big surprise! Where did they (the kids) learn it from?

It's so much easier to do it right the first time, even if no one is watching, than make excuses later.

Sorry, I'm going through a situation with my grandson and him going to Juvenile Detention right now. He learned his tendencies from his mom! Why is she surprised? He learned at his mother's knee to only do what he wanted to do and to ignore everything and everyone else. She is and was his role model.


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## Babydollhandknitdesigns (Jun 12, 2012)

Some designers have an issue about people selling the finished items from their patterns. I don't understand this at all, it's weird. I have been designing and selling patterns for years, and part of what I enjoy is going on ebay and seeing items for sale, and going 'Oh, that's one of mine'. I have increased customers because of it, people see my designs on forums like here, and on ebay, and then come to me to buy the pattern to knit it. 

The only issue I have is people sharing my patterns as that means I would have to find alternative employment as if everyone shared them, I wouldn't sell enough to keep designing.

The copyright I have is for my patterns, once you've knitted an item from it,you can do what you like with it. I love designing and people buying my patterns enables me to do it, but if I stopped them from selling the items, they wouldn't want to buy them. It's biting the hand that feeds you, the way I see it.


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

kneonknitter said:


> spinthyme said:
> 
> 
> > knitsofacto said:
> ...


Let us know if that stands up in Federal Court :~).


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## glacy1 (Sep 30, 2011)

Babydollhandknitdesigns said:


> Some designers have an issue about people selling the finished items from their patterns. I don't understand this at all, it's weird. I have been designing and selling patterns for years, and part of what I enjoy is going on ebay and seeing items for sale, and going 'Oh, that's one of mine'. I have increased customers because of it, people see my designs on forums like here, and on ebay, and then come to me to buy the pattern to knit it.
> 
> The only issue I have is people sharing my patterns as that means I would have to find alternative employment as if everyone shared them, I wouldn't sell enough to keep designing.
> 
> The copyright I have is for my patterns, once you've knitted an item from it,you can do what you like with it. I love designing and people buying my patterns enables me to do it, but if I stopped them from selling the items, they wouldn't want to buy them. It's biting the hand that feeds you, the way I see it.


I agree with everything you are saying. Now where are your patterns? I 'need' to look at what you've got!

Found your website.. OMG! Those are so cute.. I can see how much work you've put into them! 
Lovely!


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

DenzelsMa said:


> nannyberfa said:
> 
> 
> > So you are not stepping on anyones toes, just change the pattern, a bit -that way they dont have a thing to say. Its just like song writing, you change the words and music and its yours.
> ...


Let us know if sensible stands up in Federal Court :~).


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## wetfeet2 (Sep 14, 2011)

I've seen blueprints with a note stating that if you purchase their plans for the purpose of building the house for sale, you may not build additional houses for sale from the same blueprint. You need to purchase an additional blueprint for each additional client. Considering the mass prodution that goes on in the housing industry, I can't blame them.



knitsofacto said:


> I guess it comes down to what I said before. A pattern is a blueprint, a garment in potentia. If a builder builds a house for someone from their architects drawings would you think it acceptable for that builder to then go away and without permission build a whole estate of similar house to sell?
> 
> Not saying I always apply this to my own patterns - most of my stuff is free to those who ask nicely and give credit - but I defend the right of those who do to do so. Copyright law is clear that the houses, knitted garments etc. are copyright, not just the blueprints/patterns.


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## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

What about designer dresses that get "knocked off" as they say, do they have rights? Seems they must start with an original pattern


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## cook (Aug 28, 2011)

I may have a problem. I have some can cozies that my mother made years ago. I have joined a swap that I want to send to my swap buddy with the pattern. I of course don't to send mine that mama made as she isn't here to make me more so I looked at hers and made some that look a lot like hers, but taller. I wrote what I did and now I wonder if this will be a problem. I have know idea where the pattern came from and they are probably 30-40 years old.


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

cook said:


> I may have a problem. I have some can cozies that my mother made years ago. I have joined a swap that I want to send to my swap buddy with the pattern. I of course don't to send mine that mama made as she isn't here to make me more so I looked at hers and made some that look a lot like hers, but taller. I wrote what I did and now I wonder if this will be a problem. I have know idea where the pattern came from and they are probably 30-40 years old.


Good grief!!! Just share it!!!


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## cook (Aug 28, 2011)

I agree, Babydollknitdesigns are great. I guess I'm showing my old age as I'd love to have one of the reborn dolls and knit for them, but that's not happening. Have grands to knit for. Happy Knitting everyone.


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## spinthyme (Sep 1, 2011)

Sometimes if I see a sweater I like in the store, I have been known to whip out my little notebook I always carry and begin to jot down a pattern that should work for me. I try to figure the stitch pattern but if I can't I draw it out and when I get home I look up that pattern or one that closely resembles it or maybe even a different one. Then I sit down with my yarn and some needles and start to work.

I may make the components of the sweater the same as what I saw, I may not. (I mean, you can only change those components so much!) I take from the sweater what I want and write down the pattern I'm creating as I go. 

Since I have no pattern to guide me, just my memory and imagination, this seems like a design I could put my name to.

What does everyone think?

(I do the same with fine jewelry and turn it into wire and bead jewelry since I can't afford diamonds. :lol: )


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## laurelarts (Jul 31, 2011)

spinthyme said:


> Sometimes if I see a sweater I like in the store, I have been known to whip out my little notebook I always carry and begin to jot down a pattern that should work for me. I try to figure the stitch pattern but if I can't I draw it out and when I get home I look up that pattern or one that closely resembles it or maybe even a different one. Then I sit down with my yarn and some needles and start to work.
> 
> I may make the components of the sweater the same as what I saw, I may not. (I mean, you can only change those components so much!) I take from the sweater what I want and write down the pattern I'm creating as I go.
> 
> ...


That's called "designing", you are inspired by one item and you create another. Similar, yes, but definitely your own. Good going.


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## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

Spinthyme I keep looking at your avatar, sometimes it appears as a beautiful shawl over a chair, other times it looks like the rear view of a lady wearing a headscarf. Is this accidental or just very clever?


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## spinthyme (Sep 1, 2011)

laurelarts said:


> spinthyme said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes if I see a sweater I like in the store, I have been known to whip out my little notebook I always carry and begin to jot down a pattern that should work for me. I try to figure the stitch pattern but if I can't I draw it out and when I get home I look up that pattern or one that closely resembles it or maybe even a different one. Then I sit down with my yarn and some needles and start to work.
> ...


Thanks for the confirmation, Laurelarts!

After reading so many opinions here I was starting to wonder how others would see it... :lol:


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## spinthyme (Sep 1, 2011)

tryalot said:


> Spinthyme I keep looking at your avatar, sometimes it appears as a beautiful shawl over a chair, other times it looks like the rear view of a lady wearing a headscarf. Is this accidental or just very clever?


Oooh, it's just very clever (NOT!). :lol:

I wish I could take the compliment but it is only what you wish to see. Now that you mention it, I can see it too!

But the pic is actually a beautifully designed shawl by Emily Ross called "Haruni". I love it so much I have made only a few but am already thinking of making another one.


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## Boggled (Sep 3, 2011)

Babydollhandknitdesigns said:


> Some designers have an issue about people selling the finished items from their patterns. I don't understand this at all, it's weird. I have been designing and selling patterns for years, and part of what I enjoy is going on ebay and seeing items for sale, and going 'Oh, that's one of mine'. I have increased customers because of it, people see my designs on forums like here, and on ebay, and then come to me to buy the pattern to knit it.
> 
> The only issue I have is people sharing my patterns as that means I would have to find alternative employment as if everyone shared them, I wouldn't sell enough to keep designing.
> 
> The copyright I have is for my patterns, once you've knitted an item from it,you can do what you like with it. I love designing and people buying my patterns enables me to do it, but if I stopped them from selling the items, they wouldn't want to buy them. It's biting the hand that feeds you, the way I see it.


I have never bought a pattern from anyone, but I must say that your items are absolutely beautiful!!!! The next person I know who is going to have a baby will definitely be getting one of your designs. I hope I hear soon of a lot of babies on their way because I want to buy ALL of your designs.


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## frankie2963 (Mar 25, 2012)

cook said:


> I may have a problem. I have some can cozies that my mother made years ago. I have joined a swap that I want to send to my swap buddy with the pattern. I of course don't to send mine that mama made as she isn't here to make me more so I looked at hers and made some that look a lot like hers, but taller. I wrote what I did and now I wonder if this will be a problem. I have know idea where the pattern came from and they are probably 30-40 years old.


if your mamma made them that long ago the pattern is probably old enough that it is in public domain now and no longer under copyright...but just to make sure do a quick google search for can cozies and see what comes up...


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## frankie2963 (Mar 25, 2012)

tryalot said:


> What about designer dresses that get "knocked off" as they say, do they have rights? Seems they must start with an original pattern


Knock offs are illegal copies of actual items that people try to sell as the originals and those who make them always eventually find themselves in court if not in jail......but there are leagal knockoffs...those are the ones that the makers have gotten written permission and a contract to make a certain number of that item from the original designer or the design is so old that the copyright has run out on it...but even though they are legal copies it is still illegal to try and sell them as the originals or as your own design...


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## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

spinthyme said:


> tryalot said:
> 
> 
> > Spinthyme I keep looking at your avatar, sometimes it appears as a beautiful shawl over a chair, other times it looks like the rear view of a lady wearing a headscarf. Is this accidental or just very clever?
> ...


Let's just call it very clever!!


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## spinthyme (Sep 1, 2011)

Geez...

When I was a kid in the 60's my girlfriend showed me how to make an easy pair of slippers. We made tons of them. There was no pattern. All our friends made them all without a pattern. A few months ago I decided to write up the pattern and put it up on Ravelry as my design. I didn't do a search of slippers to see if a similar pattern was already available. This was the pattern *I used* years ago.

Then another member told me the pattern was already available on Rav. So I contacted Ravelry and asked if my pattern was ok to be used as my design.

She told me that at this point it was ok because I had written it up myself and more than likely it was written differently from any of the others that were similar.

Just food for thought...


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## Boggled (Sep 3, 2011)

frankie2963 said:


> tryalot said:
> 
> 
> > What about designer dresses that get "knocked off" as they say, do they have rights? Seems they must start with an original pattern
> ...


If this is factual, why did the Chicago Tribune in 2006 have an article that said, "At a time when the Oscar broadcast audience is declining, sales of red-carpet look-alike dresses are holding steady at about $300 million a year, according to the NPD Group, which tracks apparel sales." I really doubt that these famous designers would give permission to ANYONE to make their red carpet dresses, let alone to the tune of $300 million. The only illegal knock-offs are the ones who are trying to sell the garments and pass them off as garments made by the famous designer. However, the knock-off designers are recreating the dresses to look as close as they possibly can to the original dress and selling them. This is because no one can copyright a garment made from a pattern. They can only copyright the pattern. Please read the laws. If what you are saying is true, then how come Simplicity, Butterick, McCalls, and Vogue have never sued anyone for making garments from their patterns and selling them. The reason they have not is because they cannot. Only their patterns are copyrighted and not the garments made from them. I am only commenting on this because I want a balanced view for all to read. The actual copyright laws can easily be viewed on the web. People need to research this for themselves to find the truth.


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## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

Boggled said:


> frankie2963 said:
> 
> 
> > tryalot said:
> ...


Ladies, I did not intend to start an argument, it isn't necessary


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## Boggled (Sep 3, 2011)

I am truly sorry, tryalot. I really did not say what I said in order to start an argument or to argue with anyone. I was only trying to voice an opinion that was different from Frankie2963's in order to give a balanced view and state where I disagreed. I think a balanced view, giving both sides of a topic, allows everyone to decide for themselves. Discussing only 1 point of view seems very unfair. Again, I am sorry if I came off as if I wanted to argue. :-(


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## nanma esther (Aug 22, 2011)

the good book says there is nothing new under the sun,how do you copyrite something that the orginal is mabe a hundred years old


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

Some interesting reading. This is about what the Federal Courts say about patterns for quilts, knitting, dresses, etc. It is not Tabberone's opinion, it is the Court's opinion (see the referenced laws and Court decisions. Tabberones has simply put all the info on one website for you to read. These people have successfully been sued for copyright infringement and WON against big companies because the law does not support what the companies want you to believe. Remember, these companies are in the business of making money which is accomplished by selling patterns or licensed fabrics. It is not in their best interest for you to know that the law says you can make and sell as many items from patterns as you want to. You cannot sell the patterns as your own, or make copies and sell them or give them away, but you can sell the finished products from those patterns. Read the law for yourself here. You should always do your own research and not rely on what some article in a magazine tells you no matter who writes it. Go by what the actual law says (this is for USA only, of course). I am not trying to be argumentative here, only trying to offer information for you to read. If you are going to make and sell items, it is incumbent upon you to know the laws - to know both your rights and your responsibilities:

http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Quilting/Quilting.shtml

http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml

http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns/PatternCompanies.shtml


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

vjh1530 said:


> Some interesting reading. This is about what the Federal Courts say about patterns for quilts, knitting, dresses, etc. It is not Tabberone's opinion, it is the Court's opinion (see the referenced laws and Court decisions. Tabberones has simply put all the info on one website for you to read. These people have successfully been sued for copyright infringement and WON against big companies because the law does not support what the companies want you to believe. Remember, these companies are in the business of making money which is accomplished by selling patterns or licensed fabrics. It is not in their best interest for you to know that the law says you can make and sell as many items from patterns as you want to. You cannot sell the patterns as your own, or make copies and sell them or give them away, but you can sell the finished products from those patterns. Read the law for yourself here. You should always do your own research and not rely on what some article in a magazine tells you no matter who writes it. Go by what the actual law says (this is for USA only, of course). I am not trying to be argumentative here, only trying to offer information for you to read. If you are going to make and sell items, it is incumbent upon you to know the laws - to know both your rights and your responsibilities:
> 
> http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Quilting/Quilting.shtml
> 
> ...


It's also wise to realize that not everything we read on the internet is true and that several sources should be researched. If I really wanted to know the truth about copyright laws in any given country, I would consult a reputable copyright attorney. There are simply too many old, outdated ideas out there and too many rumors and wishful interpretations.


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## littlemissxmas (Oct 1, 2011)

vjh1530 said:


> Some interesting reading. This is about what the Federal Courts say about patterns for quilts, knitting, dresses, etc. It is not Tabberone's opinion, it is the Court's opinion (see the referenced laws and Court decisions. Tabberones has simply put all the info on one website for you to read. These people have successfully been sued for copyright infringement and WON against big companies because the law does not support what the companies want you to believe. Remember, these companies are in the business of making money which is accomplished by selling patterns or licensed fabrics. It is not in their best interest for you to know that the law says you can make and sell as many items from patterns as you want to. You cannot sell the patterns as your own, or make copies and sell them or give them away, but you can sell the finished products from those patterns. Read the law for yourself here. You should always do your own research and not rely on what some article in a magazine tells you no matter who writes it. Go by what the actual law says (this is for USA only, of course). I am not trying to be argumentative here, only trying to offer information for you to read. If you are going to make and sell items, it is incumbent upon you to know the laws - to know both your rights and your responsibilities:
> 
> http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Quilting/Quilting.shtml
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting this. Now it should put this issue to bed once and for all. I would assume that those who intend to continue making such silly demands will pull the patterns from the sites since they can't tell you what you can do with the items you make. Problem solved.


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## frankie2963 (Mar 25, 2012)

vjh1530 said:


> Some interesting reading. This is about what the Federal Courts say about patterns for quilts, knitting, dresses, etc. It is not Tabberone's opinion, it is the Court's opinion (see the referenced laws and Court decisions. Tabberones has simply put all the info on one website for you to read. These people have successfully been sued for copyright infringement and WON against big companies because the law does not support what the companies want you to believe. Remember, these companies are in the business of making money which is accomplished by selling patterns or licensed fabrics. It is not in their best interest for you to know that the law says you can make and sell as many items from patterns as you want to. You cannot sell the patterns as your own, or make copies and sell them or give them away, but you can sell the finished products from those patterns. Read the law for yourself here. You should always do your own research and not rely on what some article in a magazine tells you no matter who writes it. Go by what the actual law says (this is for USA only, of course). I am not trying to be argumentative here, only trying to offer information for you to read. If you are going to make and sell items, it is incumbent upon you to know the laws - to know both your rights and your responsibilities:
> 
> http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Quilting/Quilting.shtml
> 
> ...


ok here goes first before trusting in this site please read the disclaimer page located here...http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/disclaimer.shtml

Then when you are done with that check out the dates for the court cases alot has changed since then...

The next step I would take is to visit here.... http://www.copyright.gov and if like the rest of us layman you can't quite understand this mumbo jumbo and what it means for you then you can either call a good copyright attorney who is local to you or push the contact us button on this government site to get an official explanation...

For those of you out of the US who want to know something about the international treaty you can check this link out http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ38a.pdf and it will get you started in the right direction then find and visit your own country's government site or office that deals with copyrights...

last but not least I would like to express this opinion....there are loopholes in all laws but you really should not try to jump through them because they can suddenly close at anytime without warning and besides that it is a common courtisy to abide by the creators wishes even if it is not covered by a law...just think you might be taking the food from the mouth of a child if you don't...MY 2 Cents...


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## frankie2963 (Mar 25, 2012)

Boggled said:


> However, the knock-off designers are recreating the dresses to look as close as they possibly can to the original dress and selling them.


I am not arguing either but your answer is in this one sentence from your original post....I have Hilighted it so you will find it easier....they would not be considered Copies of the original designs because they are different from the originals and no one is trying to pass off exact copies as their own...


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

The disclaimer is a standard disclaimer saying they can not be held liable for any information on their website if you use it and have a problem. It is a standard disclaimer that you will find on any website that gives information to the public. It does not say "we wrote this but we may be lying to you". No offense, please! The laws have NOT changed since then. They do not have to be 2012 laws to be in effect. They can be from 100 yrs ago if they are in effect and the courts have not had a reason to change them. I have extensively researched the USA FEDERAL SITES personally. They are still in effect. They don't change laws that are working fine just to change them. Many of the laws we go by today in our daily lives were created decades ago but they still apply. When you drive you stop at stop signs, right? Well, that law was written probably in 1920 when cars became common, but that doesn't mean it isn't still in effect today.

Bottom line - This stuff is not mysterious or difficult and I agree it should be laid to rest. Companies make exact copies of designer dresses because they CAN. It is LEGAL. It is just not legal to try to pass them off as originals from that designer.

If you buy quilt pattern, a knitting pattern, a dress pattern - you can make as many of them as you want. You can sell them, donate them, burn them. It is your right under the law. Once you have purchased the pattern, the designer has gotten paid for his product. He is now out of the picture. The "useable item" as the law calls the item you produce from the pattern - is YOURS to do with as you please. He can put whatever he wants on his pattern about not selling stuff, whatever, but it means NOTHING. And unless he paid the fee to the Copyright Office and registered his pattern, he does not have any legal rights to sue even if he wanted to. He would also have to have a legal binding contract that he and you signed to hold you to any rules about reproducing items from his pattern. That is not clicking on a "yes I agree to blah blah blah" on a website. That is NOT a contract. So make however many sweaters you want and do what you want with them. That is your right under the law. If you go to Tabberones the links are there (the beauty of Tabberones is all the links are right there for you - you don't have to go searching for them) for you to go to the governmental sites that have the current laws posted to read for yourself if you want. The problem that happens when people read them is that they add their own ideas and interpretations instead of just going by exactly what is written.

What you CANNOT do is copy that pattern, share that pattern, sell that pattern, or claim that you are the designer of that pattern. THAT is what is protected under copyright law. That is what you can be sued for. That said, there are no Copyright spy cameras in your house that will turn you in if you loan the pattern to your mother. Unless you try to publish it or make it public, how would anyone know? It is up to you and your moral sense to govern what you do when no one is looking. That is when you are taking money from the designer, because the pattern you shared is one she could have been paid for by the person you shared it with.

If you go to Ravelry and you type in "Washcloth" you will see hundreds of patterns for washcloths. 500 of them are for the standard bias-knit Grandma's washcloth. Do you really think all those people invented that pattern? Knitting has been going on for centuries, so how much new stuff is there? You have to use your common sense. If you dream up a blanket pattern and make it then go to Ravelry and find the same one, do not worry about it. Most patterns for simple stuff is just someone taking a stitch they liked from a stitch dictionary and repeating that stitch pattern until it is big enough to make the blanket or washcloth or whatever. 

My disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, this is only what I have learned from days spend reading this stuff on the computer, on various sites and mainly on the Federal Court sites and the Federal Copyright Law sites. I strongly encourage anyone who is going to start a knitting business to do their own research to decide for themselves what is right or what is wrong. Get several opinions from lawyers, not just one. They make mistakes, too. 

If you are a home knitter who makes things for family or the school fair, don't sweat it. As long as you are not claiming a pattern as your own or selling or sharing the PATTERN (not the knitted item) you are fine under the law and the designer who tells you otherwise is wrong.

I hope that helps and lays the whole thing to rest. I am not trying to argue or make fun or whatever of anyone here at KP. I just am trying to share what I have learned thru my research. I feel bad when someone posts that they are worried because they want to make an item to sell at the school fair or sell to make a couple of bucks or donate to charity but are afraid they will be dragged off in handcuffs, because they do not understand what the law actually says. If you want to believe you have to re-purchase the pattern every time you make a new item because an article in Vogue written by a lawyer who was paid by the company that sells patterns (hmm, conflict of interest here? Don't believe for a minute that big companies will not lie to you to make money) tell you that is what you have to do - go for it. That is up to you. But you are wasting your money.
Vicki


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

vjh1530 said:


> You have to use your common sense.
> Vicki


COMMON SENSE?!

What a radical concept.


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## Intheknow (Apr 22, 2012)

Actually, China doesn't have copyright laws and they steal our copyrighted work and patents all the time.

A designer can copyright her pattern and I think that is only right, but she can't legally do anything to keep you from selling the item you make from the pattern.

I have a few free patterns online that I designed and when someone asks me if they can make the item to sell at craft fairs, I take it as a compliment.


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## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

vjh1530 said:


> The disclaimer is a standard disclaimer saying they can not be held liable for any information on their website if you use it and have a problem. It is a standard disclaimer that you will find on any website that gives information to the public. It does not say "we wrote this but we may be lying to you". No offense, please! The laws have NOT changed since then. They do not have to be 2012 laws to be in effect. They can be from 100 yrs ago if they are in effect and the courts have not had a reason to change them. I have extensively researched the USA FEDERAL SITES personally. They are still in effect. They don't change laws that are working fine just to change them. Many of the laws we go by today in our daily lives were created decades ago but they still apply. When you drive you stop at stop signs, right? Well, that law was written probably in 1920 when cars became common, but that doesn't mean it isn't still in effect today.
> 
> Bottom line - This stuff is not mysterious or difficult and I agree it should be laid to rest. Companies make exact copies of designer dresses because they CAN. It is LEGAL. It is just not legal to try to pass them off as originals from that designer.
> 
> ...


Wow, Vicki! That's a very impressive posting! You did my work for me, and then explained it. Thank you very much.
Bonnie


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## nannyberfa (Oct 9, 2011)

Dont worry! The yarn police wont come after you. Just put that statement, dont know where mama got the pattern, in with the pattern. Id like to see pictures.


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## Babydollhandknitdesigns (Jun 12, 2012)

Boggled said:


> Babydollhandknitdesigns said:
> 
> 
> > Some designers have an issue about people selling the finished items from their patterns. I don't understand this at all, it's weird. I have been designing and selling patterns for years, and part of what I enjoy is going on ebay and seeing items for sale, and going 'Oh, that's one of mine'. I have increased customers because of it, people see my designs on forums like here, and on ebay, and then come to me to buy the pattern to knit it.
> ...


Thanks


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## glacy1 (Sep 30, 2011)

Babydollhandknitdesigns said:


> Boggled said:
> 
> 
> > Babydollhandknitdesigns said:
> ...


I love your designs too. I'll have to see what size my granddaughers doll is, because I'm sure she will want ALL of your designs.. (for me to make, of course!) I'm afraid to send a link to your webpage or she will love ALL of them.


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## spinthyme (Sep 1, 2011)

bonbf3 said:


> vjh1530 said:
> 
> 
> > ...I hope that helps and lays the whole thing to rest. I am not trying to argue or make fun or whatever of anyone here at KP. I just am trying to share what I have learned thru my research. I feel bad when someone posts that they are worried because they want to make an item to sell at the school fair or sell to make a couple of bucks or donate to charity but are afraid they will be dragged off in handcuffs, because they do not understand what the law actually says. If you want to believe you have to re-purchase the pattern every time you make a new item because an article in Vogue written by a lawyer who was paid by the company that sells patterns (hmm, conflict of interest here? Don't believe for a minute that big companies will not lie to you to make money) tell you that is what you have to do - go for it. That is up to you. But you are wasting your money.
> ...


Ditto!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## loopingrope (Nov 18, 2011)

Vickie, I was just reading a rant from Michyle Massie he is a black member of a think tank and very concervative he said after reading me you might disagree with me, but disagreeing with me doesn't make me wrong, I hope this will stop all this disagreeing with each other. lol


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## MaryMargaret (Mar 7, 2012)

nannyberfa said:


> Dont worry! The yarn police wont come after you. Just put that statement, dont know where mama got the pattern, in with the pattern. Id like to see pictures.


Nannyberfa, you are ALMOST right. If she tells on herself in this forum, the self-anointed KP copyright police WILL come after her. I've seen it happen over and over. It's seldom or never the designers, just people who can't seem to resist finger-wagging.


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## kneonknitter (Feb 10, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> nannyberfa said:
> 
> 
> > Dont worry! The yarn police wont come after you. Just put that statement, dont know where mama got the pattern, in with the pattern. Id like to see pictures.
> ...


I think this subject has been beaten & rebeaten to death. Lots of legal wording in any area is pretty much open to the interpertation of whoever it's presented to. The final word by a judge, any judge, is still that judge's interpertation of said law. Can we move away from this so that there is no back biting please?


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

loopingrope said:


> Vickie, I was just reading a rant from Michyle Massie he is a black member of a think tank and very concervative he said after reading me you might disagree with me, but disagreeing with me doesn't make me wrong, I hope this will stop all this disagreeing with each other. lol


Good thought! Lol!


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## bonbf3 (Dec 20, 2011)

kneonknitter said:


> MaryMargaret said:
> 
> 
> > nannyberfa said:
> ...


Well said, kneonknitter!


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## kiwi11 (Jul 27, 2011)

vjh1530 said:


> The disclaimer is a standard disclaimer saying they can not be held liable for any information on their website if you use it and have a problem. It is a standard disclaimer that you will find on any website that gives information to the public. It does not say "we wrote this but we may be lying to you". No offense, please! The laws have NOT changed since then. They do not have to be 2012 laws to be in effect. They can be from 100 yrs ago if they are in effect and the courts have not had a reason to change them. I have extensively researched the USA FEDERAL SITES personally. They are still in effect. They don't change laws that are working fine just to change them. Many of the laws we go by today in our daily lives were created decades ago but they still apply. When you drive you stop at stop signs, right? Well, that law was written probably in 1920 when cars became common, but that doesn't mean it isn't still in effect today.
> 
> Bottom line - This stuff is not mysterious or difficult and I agree it should be laid to rest. Companies make exact copies of designer dresses because they CAN. It is LEGAL. It is just not legal to try to pass them off as originals from that designer.
> 
> ...


Go Vicky

You have nailed it!! Thank you.......
I hope this has cleared the air for all of those nervous, unsure, fragile peeps out there


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## TabathaJoy (Mar 5, 2011)

Rules,rules,rules. There just too many to remember.ME.I buy alot of patterns,but,I have never sold any of the finished items.I give them away.People tell me to sell my itams and I tell themno,maybe some day.But right now I love giving them away,because I love making the items and I feel wonderful when I see the smile on their face or the hug they give me.I think that I would go crazy trying to remember all those RULES!!!!


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## hennie (Mar 28, 2011)

spinthyme said:


> bonbf3 said:
> 
> 
> > vjh1530 said:
> ...


Ditto!! from me too 
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## levi (Jul 30, 2011)

I make up patterns (sweaters,neck mufflers, lots of baby items, blankets ect, ebt) I have made more $ this year than ever. There are more people wanting hand made items now than ever before, whether it's needle work, quilting, woodworking the sky is the limit. If you can make it & someone wants one. Sell them one. I make alot of tank top & yoke style sweaters, wear them around town, people want them to buy. I give them a little business card. Everyone is happy. I am also a retired hairdresser. Do I cut at home ABSOLUTELY. God gave us all talent to prosper in the world!!! Go out into the world & prosper


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## BarbaraSD (Mar 10, 2011)

MaryMargaret said:


> nannyberfa said:
> 
> 
> > Dont worry! The yarn police wont come after you. Just put that statement, dont know where mama got the pattern, in with the pattern. Id like to see pictures.
> ...


Mary Margaret, boy do you have that right. There are so many "thou shalt nots" here who just want to scare people who are only trying to make a few bucks. My advice is go for it, only don't say you are.


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