# I know this has gone over before but what does it mean to YOU??



## Augustgran (Apr 16, 2011)

Pattern is for personal use only and not be used to create items for commercial purposes. This pattern can not be reproduced in any form or by any electronic or mechanical means without permission. Images are the property of the photographer and may not be reproduced without written permission. Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy 
I took out the name of the artist,
I understand I cannot, sell,copy,distribute the pattern or claim it as my own, or any apart as my design.
What about the sections where it is wrote note for commercial purposes?
Does this mean I could not make a few (meaning less than 3 to5 ) and sell then at a Christmas Bazzarr?
Truthfully I am afraid to contact the artist as it was not pleasant the last time.

, I did try to contact the artists previously on a pattern i purchased that was priced on her site as one price but when I got invinced it was $2 more (we are from the same country so it wasn;t a currency issue)
She got super nasty about it then made me wait almost a week before she sent the down load.(when her site list 24 hours or less)when I asked about the difference


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## farmkiti (Oct 13, 2011)

I would think that if it says, "not for commercial purposes," it would mean that you can't make any to sell. At least that's the way I interpret it. 

That still doesn't forgive the person who was so nasty to you. She should have been flattered that you wanted to use her pattern, and should have been happy that you even contacted her to clarify the situation. A lot of people just go ahead and do what they want, regardless of the wording on the pattern.


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## bakrmom (May 30, 2011)

My understanding is,regardless of what the designer says, he/she cannot dictate what you do with the finished item. i know this comes up with sewn items often and a few feel you are obligated to honor the designers wishes but it is not binding. The pattern/ way of making it is protected by copyright but that does not extend to how you use finished item as long as you don't claim it as your own design.


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## Damama (Oct 2, 2011)

Good question.


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## janeydee (Sep 12, 2014)

bakrmom said:


> My understanding is,regardless of what the designer says, he/she cannot dictate what you do with the finished item. i know this comes up with sewn items often and a few feel you are obligated to honor the designers wishes but it is not binding. The pattern/ way of making it is protected by copyright but that does not extend to how you use finished item as long as you don't claim it as your own design.


That is how would understand it too.


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## kiwi11 (Jul 27, 2011)

grandmasheryl said:


> Pattern is for personal use only and not be used to create items for commercial purposes. This pattern can not be reproduced in any form or by any electronic or mechanical means without permission. Images are the property of the photographer and may not be reproduced without written permission. Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy
> I took out the name of the artist,
> I understand I cannot, sell,copy,distribute the pattern or claim it as my own, or any apart as my design.
> What about the sections where it is wrote note for commercial purposes?
> ...


I cannot imagine this (nasty) person has eyes in the back of her head>>>to be able to see everywhere globally>>>they are just words>>>and I think you should be able to make to sell-but if you feel you cannot-seek out a similar pattern (and she cannot claim) and a free one, as there are so many out there>>>>and go for it and be damned I say>>>


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## kiwi11 (Jul 27, 2011)

The words(not for commercial ) in my view means that mass produced items sold retail>>>>so, I say go for it anyway<<<


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## superjan (Sep 10, 2011)

http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml

This article has really put it straight for me. Perhaps give this link to this rather obnoxious person. 

NO-ONE can stop you doing anything with the items you make from ANY pattern as far as I can understand from this. 
Exceptions I think would be licensed designs belonging to film studios etc. for characters such as Mickey Mouse,Hello Kitty etc.


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## disgo (Mar 2, 2013)

superjan said:


> http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml
> 
> This article has really put it straight for me. Perhaps give this link to this rather obnoxious person.
> 
> ...


Mickey and all the other characters created by Disney Productions carry a trademark on the name Walt Disney.

Just be aware it is up to Disney Productions or this designer to take you to court and have to prove their case that you are getting profits from their creations. Doing three to four items would not even be considered by the judge as a waste of time for the courts (nor would the lawyers and judge get any extra income from the case).

So hint, hint since I can't even use my own surname business wise I can still sign anything I want since Walt signed differently than me.

Suggestion--put some twist stitches in the selvedge edge and you have created your own design and would have nothing the designer could sue you for.


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## Buttons (Feb 11, 2011)

It means that you can't mass produce these in a factory to sell or sell her patterns.


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## Aisles (Feb 26, 2013)

Yes that's what it means you can't make to sell as that's the terms and conditions of usage you agree to when you buy the pattern. 

Beware of that link it often offers very bad legal advice and should never be taken as law.


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## Conchalea (Dec 30, 2013)

superjan said:


> http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml
> 
> This article has really put it straight for me. Perhaps give this link to this rather obnoxious person.
> 
> ...


Wow was that informative! Thank you so much for this. So what I gleaned from the site is that the DIRECTIONS for making an article of clothing (sewn, knitted, or crocheted) are copyrightable (if that's a word) but the finished article is NOT. It is now yours to with as you will, whether that's to give away, keep, or sell. Clothing is classified as 'useful articles' & therefore can't get a copyright. The page was long & had some legalese but once I waded through, I learned an awful lot. Thank you again!


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

grandmasheryl said:


> Pattern is for personal use only and not be used to create items for commercial purposes. This pattern can not be reproduced in any form or by any electronic or mechanical means without permission. Images are the property of the photographer and may not be reproduced without written permission. Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy
> I took out the name of the artist,
> I understand I cannot, sell,copy,distribute the pattern or claim it as my own, or any apart as my design.
> What about the sections where it is wrote note for commercial purposes?
> ...


What it means is the designer has freedom of speech. He/She can write anything they want below their pattern doesn't mean it's binding. The part about selling the pattern is copyright. You own your work. You can do what you like with it.


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## Conchalea (Dec 30, 2013)

Aisles said:


> Yes that's what it means you can't make to sell as that's the terms and conditions of usage you agree to when you buy the pattern.
> 
> Beware of that link it often offers very bad legal advice and should never be taken as law.


The site is interpreting the law & quotes Court decisions & statements. If that entire page is read, the Court's rulings are quoted. The items made from a pattern cannot be copyrighted, as they are useful items. I don't necessarily think designers lie about their copyrights, I simply think most of them, like me & others I know, are confused by statutes. Legalese is obscure, probably on purpose to keep lay people confused & needing lawyers to translate everything.


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## SharonKay222 (Oct 18, 2014)

That's right Bakrmom. Copyright covers the intellectual claim on the pattern as you explained it. But the owner of the copyright can't dictate how the finished product can be used. In any case I could see where it might be inappropriate to use someone else's pattern to mass produce items for sale, but I can't imagine that anyone could object to a few items sold at a local event.


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## Conchalea (Dec 30, 2013)

WindingRoad said:


> What it means is the designer has freedom of speech. He/She can write anything they want below their pattern doesn't mean it's binding. The part about selling the pattern is copyright. You own your work. You can do what you like with it.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Conchalea said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup:


We won't be popular with some here. Just sayin'


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## Conchalea (Dec 30, 2013)

WindingRoad said:


> We won't be popular with some here. Just sayin'


Ah, well, I was never popular in school-why start now?


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## Norma B. (Oct 15, 2012)

grandmasheryl said:


> Pattern is for personal use only and not be used to create items for commercial purposes. This pattern can not be reproduced in any form or by any electronic or mechanical means without permission. Images are the property of the photographer and may not be reproduced without written permission. Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy


All that wording is such a lot of BS! Does this designer really believe that she's created something so unique that no part of it can be used or changed? The old adage "There is nothing new under the sun" comes to mind. The issue has come up many times and there are always those who say you must adhere to every word or you'll be sued for millions (what?) while others are much more sensible about it. I agree that one would be liable for legal censure if you were selling the exact pattern product wholesale to Nordstrom or Neiman Marcus, but you're not. As Gordon said, put your own personal stamp on it with a change of stitches, yarn, color, shape, and do as you wish with the end product.


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## laceluvr (Feb 16, 2012)

Thanks superjan for the link. I read the whole thing and saved it for future reference.


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## Coral McRae (Jul 23, 2013)

Under these circumstances you are making it and donating it. The church bazaar is selling it. This does not refer to your use of the pattern as you aren't making a profit from it.


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## sandraway (Oct 19, 2014)

Very interesting thread. I suppose the simple solution is.....if you want to keep something all for yourself DON'T put it on the Internet. If you do you've lost control over usage. (Very bad behaviour to get nasty with someone who has the courtesy to ask permission  )


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## guen12 (Jul 28, 2011)

I have read on the bottom of some patterns about not reproducing an item. I understand not selling the actual pattern and taking credit for it. As far as reproducing I guess I am guilty because I reproduce all of them and store them on my thumb drive. I do not knit from my computer screen I work from a written copy. My second point is I would think a creator would want the end result of her pattern out before the public because it could mean potential buyers for her pattern. The seller of the completed object could provide the info to a potential buyer on where and how to actually get the pattern. I sometimes wonder if the copy write issue is why so many creators use the PDF program. I have noticed more of the websites are offering patterns for sale and they can be immediately downloaded. Some you can work with and some you can't. If I have trouble moving the pattern into Word, I move on.


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## RobbiD (Nov 13, 2012)

grandmasheryl said:


> Pattern is for personal use only and not be used to create items for commercial purposes. This pattern can not be reproduced in any form or by any electronic or mechanical means without permission. Images are the property of the photographer and may not be reproduced without written permission. Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy
> I took out the name of the artist,
> I understand I cannot, sell,copy,distribute the pattern or claim it as my own, or any apart as my design.
> What about the sections where it is wrote note for commercial purposes?
> ...


I don't think a Christmas Bazaar would be classified as a commercial enterprise. Usually they are only small affairs that occur only once a year. On the other hand, if you are knitting and selling items for profit, that could make *you* a commercial enterprise. If you are only selling things once a year, and in very small quantities, I think anyone would be hard pressed to classify you as a business, therefore not using the pattern for commercial purposes. JMO


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## 777cam (Oct 28, 2013)

I understand it to be that you cannot give out copies of the pattern. I feel once you make that item using your needles, yarn and time, the item is yours and you can do with it whatever you want as long as you do not claim the pattern as your design. I have even made modifications to a pattern to suit my needs but still do not claim it as my design. But I would still do with it what I like. I paid them for their product now the end product is mine, and if I want to sell it or give it away it is mine to do with as I choose.


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## safepethaven (Nov 1, 2011)

I've sewn from commercial tissue patterns bought/paid for from retail stores for over 50 years. If Simplicity, McCall's, Butterick or Vogue tried to tell me what I could/could not do with anything I created based upon their purchased pattern, I'd think they'd have lost their minds. And I wouldn't mind telling them so [nicely of course].


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## Nannyshirl (May 11, 2013)

I'd interpret 'not for commercial' to mean that you can't sell the finished items it order to make a business profit. To make and sell it for charity would not (in my opinion) contravene that requirement. 

Nor, I believe would you be in breach of the terms if you made it for someone else who paid you for materials and an agreed amount for your time. For example, if the materials cost $50, and you spent 25 hours making it, your time cost was agreed with the person commissioning it at $5 an hour (cheap if you ask me!), you receive $175 in total, you have not made a profit! If, however, you received, say $200, a clear profit of $25, that's a different story.

Now, I do get that designers need to make a living too, and I fully respect that, but seriously, if they think they can restrict domestic use of their published pattern, they've got another thing coming! It's like selling a cd and saying you can only listen to it once and you must be alone! Get a grip! The number of people morally and ethically likely to observe such restrictive terms (assuming they actually read the small print!) has to be minuscule in the great scheme of things, and I can't imagine how in the world they would ever be able to police it any way!


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## roseknit (Apr 2, 2011)

Just alter the pattern in some way and you have solved your problem


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

Copyright law does not protect the finished product, and it can be sold.

_According to copyright law!

But,_ it's possible to patent the design, and if she's done that, then it's illegal to make and sell even one finished product from the instructions.

Just because copyright law doesn't cover this situation, doesn't mean there isn't _other_ law that does cover it.

It's unlikely that the designer has taken out a patent on the design, but it is possible. It's very expensive, though, and t's unlikely that the designer has done that. But if you take things for granted and the designer sues, you could be responsible for big court costs, even if you win. It would be a really big time and money loss to defend.

I have heard too many stories of the person who buys a pattern making and selling finished copies and being sued by the designer where the designer won.

I'd say ask the designer, but she seems to have made the situation abundantly clear.

I'd recommend finding a different but similar pattern by a different designer and contacting them to see if they have an objection to your plans.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

RobbiD said:


> I don't think a Christmas Bazaar would be classified as a commercial enterprise. Usually they are only small affairs that occur only once a year. On the other hand, if you are knitting and selling items for profit, that could make *you* a commercial enterprise. If you are only selling things once a year, and in very small quantities, I think anyone would be hard pressed to classify you as a business, therefore not using the pattern for commercial purposes. JMO


Please don't confuse trademark (i.e Disney) vs copyright. Two different things.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

lostarts said:


> Copyright law does not protect the finished product, and it can be sold.
> 
> _According to copyright law!
> 
> ...


Can you post a link to those cases. I've heard a lot of things over the years. 99% of them are probably not true.


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## RobbiD (Nov 13, 2012)

lostarts said:


> Copyright law does not protect the finished product, and it can be sold.
> 
> _According to copyright law!
> 
> ...


I think it very unlikely that a patent would ever be issued for a clothing design. After all, that would be like patenting a cake recipe, making it totally illegal for a person to bake a cake, whether for personal consumption or not. Now the *means* by which the cake is baked (specialty equipment, different oven design, a certain type of cake pan, etc) can be patented- but not the cake itself. Just saying.


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## SouthernGirl (Dec 28, 2011)

Will be checking for more responses. This is always an interesting topic.


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## mathwizard (Feb 24, 2011)

You can make some but donate them. Fine line I could be wrong but ifyou sell them you are violating the copyright law. If you donate them and they sell them ( fine line is you are not selling or profiting from the sale) you probably are not violating the copyright law. I also know if you make 3 or more major changes to a pattern you have created a new pattern and you own the copyright. Changes do not mean errata but design changes.


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## gravelgert66 (Feb 21, 2011)

disgo said:


> Mickey and all the other characters created by Disney Productions carry a trademark on the name Walt Disney.
> 
> Just be aware it is up to Disney Productions or this designer to take you to court and have to prove their case that you are getting profits from their creations. Doing three to four items would not even be considered by the judge as a waste of time for the courts (nor would the lawyers and judge get any extra income from the case).
> 
> ...


I agree whole Heartily! The product never turns out 100% the original. If so, change a few stitch's. They may be for the better.


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## RobbiD (Nov 13, 2012)

mathwizard said:


> You can make some but donate them. Fine line I could be wrong but ifyou sell them you are violating the copyright law. If you donate them and they sell them ( fine line is you are not selling or profiting from the sale) you probably are not violating the copyright law. I also know if you make 3 or more major changes to a pattern you have created a new pattern and you own the copyright. Changes do not mean errata but design changes.


So the christening gown I made for my grandson, which incorporated stitches and designs gleaned from an existing christening gown pattern, a shawl pattern, and a blanket pattern, and had beads added (not in any of the patterns I "borrowed" from) would be copyright-able as my own original design?


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

mathwizard said:


> You can make some but donate them. Fine line I could be wrong but ifyou sell them you are violating the copyright law. If you donate them and they sell them ( fine line is you are not selling or profiting from the sale) you probably are not violating the copyright law. I also know if you make 3 or more major changes to a pattern you have created a new pattern and you own the copyright. Changes do not mean errata but design changes.


Copyright law applies to the pattern not the finished product. I could put a pattern up of something I've made that I think is original and I can write you can't sell the finished product of my pattern. I can write that but it has ZERO weight in the law of being enforce. I can't tell you what to do with something you've made with your own hands.


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## Dsynr (Jun 3, 2011)

If the design is PATENTED, U can't use it without the designer's precise written permisison or be in violation of a patent and to court we go and you lose.
If the design is COPYRIGHTED, U can use it; but NOT claim it for your own desing, or sell THE PATTERN.
Correct me if I'm wrong; but what YOU MAKE FROM THE BOUGHT PATTERN is YOURS to do with as you wish.
I'd not try to mass-market what was made from somebody else's pattern. That would be just WRONG!


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Dsynr said:


> If the design is PATENTED, U can't use it without the designer's precise written permisison or be in violation of a patent and to court we go and you lose.
> If the design is COPYRIGHTED, U can use it; but NOT claim it for your own desing, or sell THE PATTERN.
> Correct me if I'm wrong; but what YOU MAKE FROM THE BOUGHT PATTERN is YOURS to do with as you wish.
> I'd not try to mass-market what was made from somebody else's pattern. That would be just WRONG!


And yet it's done all the time in clothing. How many Paris runway fashions end up in Macy's?


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## Dweir (Apr 19, 2013)

Thanks for all of the clarification!


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## sassy22 (Sep 29, 2012)

While I think the designers are very talented and deserve credit for their designs, I don't believe they can control what is done with a handcrafted item. If we as knitters followed the rule "of not for commercial use or sale" there would never be any hand knit/crafted items at church bazaars, community craft shows, or fall fairs and people who don't knit would never have the pleasure of owning a beautifully knit, handmade sweater, socks, hat, scarf, etc.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

sassy22 said:


> While I think the designers are very talented and deserve credit for their designs, I don't believe they can control what is done with a handcrafted item. If we as knitters followed the rule "of not for commercial use or sale" there would never be any hand knit/crafted items at church bazaars, community craft shows, or fall fairs and people who don't knit would never have the pleasure of owning a beautifully knit, handmade sweater, socks, hat, scarf, etc.


If the designer wrote you have to use only green yarn when you make this item do you suppose every one would follow that also. NOPE. As I've said the designer can write whatever they want. Sometimes I'm not sure how they can call it a copyrighted pattern. How can a totally st st sweater be copyrighted? Nothing original about that.


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## MelissaC (May 27, 2012)

Think of it this way: when someone buys your work, they are paying not for the item, but for your time, materials, and expertise. The item is the result of those entities.


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## carrottop71 (Jul 17, 2011)

disgo said:


> Mickey and all the other characters created by Disney Productions carry a trademark on the name Walt Disney.
> 
> Just be aware it is up to Disney Productions or this designer to take you to court and have to prove their case that you are getting profits from their creations. Doing three to four items would not even be considered by the judge as a waste of time for the courts (nor would the lawyers and judge get any extra income from the case).
> 
> ...


You just reminded me that my ex daughter in law was a direct heir to Walt Disney. Her grandmother made my daughters hand made dolls and was able to use the Disney name on them.


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## Ronie (Jan 21, 2011)

disgo said:


> Mickey and all the other characters created by Disney Productions carry a trademark on the name Walt Disney.
> 
> Just be aware it is up to Disney Productions or this designer to take you to court and have to prove their case that you are getting profits from their creations. Doing three to four items would not even be considered by the judge as a waste of time for the courts (nor would the lawyers and judge get any extra income from the case).
> 
> ...


it would be worth looking up.. but you have to change a certain percent to then call it your own.. for some reason 10% pops into my mind.. but that could be wrong...
I personally don't see how they can put such strong restrictions on a pattern... I can understand the pattern itself but not what was made from it...


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## ElyseKnox (Sep 16, 2011)

"Beware of that link it often offers very bad legal advice and should never be taken as law."

Just wondering on what basis you make the above statement? I am not challenging you, just want to know more info.
Thanks



Aisles said:


> Yes that's what it means you can't make to sell as that's the terms and conditions of usage you agree to when you buy the pattern.
> 
> Beware of that link it often offers very bad legal advice and should never be taken as law.


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## Siouxiq (Aug 26, 2011)

As a designer, I rely on copyright laws, and I respect those of others. Professional designers depend on the income from the sale of their patterns. If you make items for sale from patterns that are not your own, you are infringing on the designers rights, and compromising their income stream. So, ethically, morally and legally it is the wrong thing to do.


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## Charlotte80 (Jan 24, 2011)

If everyone isn't confused enough now, go to search above and there is a whole lot more discussion available.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:


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## Irene1 (Oct 23, 2013)

To me, it's a question of ethics. It is not ethical to copy a purchased pattern and pass it on to a friend. It is not ethical to dredge up an old pattern, change the designer's name to your own, and put it out there as your own work. Making a few minor changes and claiming the whole design as your own is, in my eyes, not ethical. I also don't believe that making articles and selling them without the express permission of the designer is ethical.

I highly value the very talented designers out there, and want to continue to enrich my knitting and reading life with their works. I would hate to see them stop creating and publishing. 


Sorry for the soapbox rant, but can't we be honest AND ethical in our knitting?


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## barbdpayne (Jan 24, 2011)

Make as many as you want to sell. As long as you don't include the pattern with the item, there is no problem. The pattern is copyright protected. Your handmade item is not. To be extra sure, change a few design elements, or colors so that it is your own design.


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## Siouxiq (Aug 26, 2011)

As a designer, I rely on copyright laws, and I respect those of others. Professional designers depend on the income from the sale of their patterns. If you make items for sale from patterns that are not your own, you are infringing on the designers rights, and compromising their income stream. So, ethically, morally and legally it is the wrong thing to do.


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## LilgirlCA (Jan 22, 2011)

guen12 said:


> I have read on the bottom of some patterns about not reproducing an item. I understand not selling the actual pattern and taking credit for it. As far as reproducing I guess I am guilty because I reproduce all of them and store them on my thumb drive. I do not knit from my computer screen I work from a written copy. My second point is I would think a creator would want the end result of her pattern out before the public because it could mean potential buyers for her pattern. The seller of the completed object could provide the info to a potential buyer on where and how to actually get the pattern. I sometimes wonder if the copy write issue is why so many creators use the PDF program. I have noticed more of the websites are offering patterns for sale and they can be immediately downloaded. Some you can work with and some you can't. If I have trouble moving the pattern into Word, I move on.


I believe that you can make as many working copies of a pattern for your own use. You cannot make a copy and give it away or sell it. You cannot make copies of a pattern and use it in a class you are teaching.

The primary reason that many creators use the PDF program for pattern downloads is that anyone can get a free program to read these files. If they were to use MS Word, that would be very limiting as many do not have this expensive program.


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

RobbiD said:


> So the christening gown I made for my grandson, which incorporated stitches and designs gleaned from an existing christening gown pattern, a shawl pattern, and a blanket pattern, and had beads added (not in any of the patterns I "borrowed" from) would be copyright-able as my own original design?


You're copyrighting your _words._

If you write up the instructions, your _words_ are copyrightable. Especially with that degree of change.


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## ElyseKnox (Sep 16, 2011)

Somehow in this whole discussion, it seems to me that the logic gets a little fuzzy. Your comment seems to imply that if someone sells items made from a pattern purchased from you that the seller is somehow 'harming' you--as in siphoning off business that otherwise would have come to you rather than the seller.

But, if you sell patterns, not the items made based on those patterns, then buyers of the items would NOT have come to you to purchase anything so how could the seller be 'harming' you or compromising your income stream?

I am not trying to be argumentative or be nasty--only to apply logic and reason to the UNDERSTANDING of the applicable laws. I am also a pattern designer and would like to benefit from my time, effort and creativity but also believe that clear, logical discussions serve all of us.



Siouxiq said:


> As a designer, I rely on copyright laws, and I respect those of others. Professional designers depend on the income from the sale of their patterns. If you make items for sale from patterns that are not your own, you are infringing on the designers rights, and compromising their income stream. So, ethically, morally and legally it is the wrong thing to do.


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

Siouxiq said:


> As a designer, I rely on copyright laws, and I respect those of others. Professional designers depend on the income from the sale of their patterns. If you make items for sale from patterns that are not your own, you are infringing on the designers rights, and compromising their income stream. So, ethically, morally and legally it is the wrong thing to do.


I agree.

But it's not covered by copyright law.

It _is_ covered by other law, though.


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## safepethaven (Nov 1, 2011)

I've found that not that many laws, ordinances etc. are based upon logic [or common sense either], especially their intentionally obtuse wording. )


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

This whole topic has bothered me for a long time, so I finally bought a book on intellectual property and I'm reading it.

I knew there was some other way to protect a design over and above copyrighting the pattern. I had no idea it was possible to patent a design.

But I haven't finished reading the book, so take everything I say on this subject with a grain of salt!


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## KanFan (Mar 10, 2012)

You need to consult a lawyer who does copy write work..it may cost more than you want to pay. But it is a lot less than being sued for copy write rights. A school district was sued for showing movies that, although related to class work, there was a provision against using the movie for public use.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

KanFan said:


> You need to consult a lawyer who does copy write work..it may cost more than you want to pay. But it is a lot less than being sued for copy write rights. A school district was sued for showing movies that, although related to class work, there was a provision against using the movie for public use.


I'd like to read that case can you site it?


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## ICE (May 4, 2011)

disgo said:


> Mickey and all the other characters created by Disney Productions carry a trademark on the name Walt Disney.
> 
> Just be aware it is up to Disney Productions or this designer to take you to court and have to prove their case that you are getting profits from their creations. Doing three to four items would not even be considered by the judge as a waste of time for the courts (nor would the lawyers and judge get any extra income from the case).
> 
> ...


Hi,
"Suggestion--put some twist stitches in the selvedge edge and you have created your own design and would have nothing the designer could sue you for."
Absolutely FALSE! Disney has whole departments, that seek out ALL over the USA (and probably everywhere else) craft shows, sports meets, etc. AND look for anything that is even close to Disney design.
We had this experience at a local gymnastics meet where we sold embroidery and screen designs. I had printed some Tshirts with the "image" of a Volkswagen car. I did the color changes (Herbie's Lovebug" I think it was) by request of the recipient of a FREE Tshirt . Months later we were visited by a rep from Disney, which requested "restitution" for "robbing (?!) Disney Corp. of "legitimate income" by selling "their" design for "my" profit. To make a long story short, after a lot of "paper production" and being able to prove that the shirt was a "give away" AND that was the ONLY time we had used the Volkswagen as a print on a give away tshirt (btw this was the ONLY shrt with this print!!!) were they satisfied. I have never felt better about being obsessive regarding paperwork!
But, even though this shirt was a freebie we had to remove it from our website! 
ICE in NJ


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

ICE said:


> Hi,
> "Suggestion--put some twist stitches in the selvedge edge and you have created your own design and would have nothing the designer could sue you for."
> Absolutely FALSE! Disney has whole departments, that seek out ALL over the USA (and probably everywhere else) craft shows, sports meets, etc. AND look for anything that is even close to Disney design.
> We had this experience at a local gymnastics meet where we sold embroidery and screen designs. I had printed some Tshirts with the "image" of a Volkswagen car. I did the color changes (Herbie's Lovebug" I think it was) by request of the recipient of a FREE Tshirt . Months later we were visited by a rep from Disney, which requested "restitution" for "robbing (?!) Disney Corp. of "legitimate income" by selling "their" design for "my" profit. To make a long story short, after a lot of "paper production" and being able to prove that the shirt was a "give away" AND that was the ONLY time we had used the Volkswagen as a print on a give away tshirt (btw this was the ONLY shrt with this print!!!) were they satisfied. I have never felt better about being obsessive regarding paperwork!
> ...


Did you check for id? Where was Volkswagon?


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## ICE (May 4, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Did you check for id? Where was Volkswagon?


WinfingRoad,
As I said, it was a long story! Started with phone calls, emails, letters and visits! And YES I did, and do check id's. As to your question: "Where was Volkswagon?" What is the relevance?
Comments were to "inform" the readers of our company's "run in" with a LARGE corporation. NO more, NO less. Take what you want from it and act accordingly.
ICE


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## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

superjan said:


> http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml
> 
> This article has really put it straight for me. Perhaps give this link to this rather obnoxious person.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the link, is very informative. Now I know better. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

I always read if the book or pattern that I'm interested say copyrighted and not for commercial use. I don't buy it.

Is their lost, there are many free patterns that you can use any way you want.


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## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

777cam said:


> I understand it to be that you cannot give out copies of the pattern. I feel once you make that item using your needles, yarn and time, the item is yours and you can do with it whatever you want as long as you do not claim the pattern as your design. I have even made modifications to a pattern to suit my needs but still do not claim it as my design. But I would still do with it what I like. I paid them for their product now the end product is mine, and if I want to sell it or give it away it is mine to do with as I choose.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## gravelgert66 (Feb 21, 2011)

knitismything said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


I agree with you 100%. Thanks for sharing. :thumbup:


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## fourbyin (Oct 6, 2013)

this is a hot button topic for sure


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## CuriousKitty (Dec 19, 2013)

superjan said:


> http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml
> 
> This article has really put it straight for me. Perhaps give this link to this rather obnoxious person.
> 
> ...


Thank you! That was an informative write up!

I did try to contact the artists previously on a pattern i purchased that was priced on her site as one price but when I got invinced it was $2 more (we are from the same country so it wasn;t a currency issue)
She got super nasty about it then made me wait almost a week before she sent the down load.(when her site list 24 hours or less)when I asked about the difference

grandmasheryl
And, grandmasheryl, I've found the least informed and controlling tend to have the nastier attitudes - what we used to call 'stubborn-stupid' - the more facts you supply, the deeper they dig in their heels!
Sorry you had that experience, but thank you for bringing all this to light as we see constantly how they try to control something that cannot be controlled. So, in essence, a bunch of blowhards! 
Kit


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## CuriousKitty (Dec 19, 2013)

sandraway said:


> Very interesting thread. I suppose the simple solution is.....if you want to keep something all for yourself DON'T put it on the Internet. If you do you've lost control over usage. (Very bad behaviour to get nasty with someone who has the courtesy to ask permission  )


So true...I learned that with fotos and some artwork - all of a sudden it was showing up where it was definitely not posted...And WELCOME! What an initiation for you! Actually, you will find many kind, helpful people here...and yes, some interesting, 'hot' subjects! Anyway...Welcome!


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## mathwizard (Feb 24, 2011)

It really depends on how closely you followed the pattern and what kind of changes you made. Adding beads isn't changing the pattern adding decoration. Changing means design details, overall construction and stitches. The doily I attached has major design changes. Up to the puffy yellow things the design is from a pattern but all the rounds after it are my creation and design. I did credit to the author of that part when posted on another web site but the overall pattern is my copyright because of major design changes. The design from the center to the yellow is another but the rest is mine. The green netting and the pineapples and rest is my design . I hope this helps.


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## gordon000 (Jul 17, 2011)

I was once told by a designer that if someone wanted/could make enough finished items from her pattern to make a PROFIT, then "go for it". just sayin!


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## Lndyf9 (Jul 6, 2013)

Just go ahead and make them and sell them at the bazaar who's going to know anyway, I would be honoured if anyone liked my patterns enough to use them. I would hate it if someone claimed them to be their own though, it's only right to give credit to the designer so if someone were to ask if they were made from your pattern just say no and if they would like the pattern you can give them a link.


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## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

ICE said:


> WinfingRoad,
> As I said, it was a long story! Started with phone calls, emails, letters and visits! And YES I did, and do check id's. As to your question: "Where was Volkswagon?" What is the relevance?
> Comments were to "inform" the readers of our company's "run in" with a LARGE corporation. NO more, NO less. Take what you want from it and act accordingly.
> ICE


I think she did not see the movie "Herbie the Lovebug" back in 1984 and you did.
Therefore her question.


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## Siouxiq (Aug 26, 2011)

ElyseKnox said:


> Somehow in this whole discussion, it seems to me that the logic gets a little fuzzy. Your comment seems to imply that if someone sells items made from a pattern purchased from you that the seller is somehow 'harming' you--as in siphoning off business that otherwise would have come to you rather than the seller.
> 
> But, if you sell patterns, not the items made based on those patterns, then buyers of the items would NOT have come to you to purchase anything so how could the seller be 'harming' you or compromising your income stream?
> 
> I am not trying to be argumentative or be nasty--only to apply logic and reason to the UNDERSTANDING of the applicable laws. I am also a pattern designer and would like to benefit from my time, effort and creativity but also believe that clear, logical discussions serve all of us.


Anyone who wants a designer's creation should buy the pattern and make the item. Or buy the pattern and pay someone to make the item. 
It is a lot of work to design and prepare a pattern for someone elses use, and is rewarded by the copyright laws. These arguments that are in this 
conversation would allow for someone to take a photo of a painting in a gallery and sell it. I am going to post a link to our copyright laws. Just have to find it. NOT the spurious one being cited.


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## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

ICE said:


> WinfingRoad,
> As I said, it was a long story! Started with phone calls, emails, letters and visits! And YES I did, and do check id's. As to your question: "Where was Volkswagon?" What is the relevance?
> Comments were to "inform" the readers of our company's "run in" with a LARGE corporation. NO more, NO less. Take what you want from it and act accordingly.
> ICE


Correction on my previous response. I saw the movie "Herbie the Lovebug" in 1974 not 1984.


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## knitismything (Dec 4, 2011)

CuriousKitty said:


> Thank you! That was an informative write up!
> 
> I did try to contact the artists previously on a pattern i purchased that was priced on her site as one price but when I got invinced it was $2 more (we are from the same country so it wasn;t a currency issue)
> She got super nasty about it then made me wait almost a week before she sent the down load.(when her site list 24 hours or less)when I asked about the difference
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

superjan said:


> http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml
> 
> This article has really put it straight for me. Perhaps give this link to this rather obnoxious person.
> 
> ...


Tabberone is not a law firm and should never be relied on for legal advice. Read their disclaimer. Also check out former discussions regarding copyright laws on this forum. While these laws may differ from country to country, you can find yourself in a lot of (very expensive) trouble if you act on your own feelings rather than what the actual law says. While you are correct in saying that no one can stop you, that's also true of any other breaking of any laws. Getting caught at it puts it in a whole different light. Ask anyone who has been sued for copyright infringement. It really bothers me when anyone advises anyone else on legal issues without being qualified to do so.....


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## Siouxiq (Aug 26, 2011)

ElyseKnox said:


> Somehow in this whole discussion, it seems to me that the logic gets a little fuzzy. Your comment seems to imply that if someone sells items made from a pattern purchased from you that the seller is somehow 'harming' you--as in siphoning off business that otherwise would have come to you rather than the seller.
> 
> But, if you sell patterns, not the items made based on those patterns, then buyers of the items would NOT have come to you to purchase anything so how could the seller be 'harming' you or compromising your income stream?
> 
> I am not trying to be argumentative or be nasty--only to apply logic and reason to the UNDERSTANDING of the applicable laws. I am also a pattern designer and would like to benefit from my time, effort and creativity but also believe that clear, logical discussions serve all of us.


You can find a really good definition under wikipedia. It says this in part:
"Exclusive rights

There are six basic rights protected by copyright, sometimes called the six "pillars" of copyright.[citation needed] The owner of copyright has the exclusive right to do and to authorize others to do the following:

To reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords;
To prepare derivative works based upon the work;
To distribute copies or phonorecords of the work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;
To publicly perform the work, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works;
To publicly display the work, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work.
To digitally transmit sound recordings by means of digital audio transmission;
[30]

A violation of any of the exclusive rights of the copyright holder is said to be a copyright infringement."


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## Yorkieschitz (Sep 9, 2014)

WOW!!! Very interesting. I always change up the patterns I purchase and get for free and it is a true statement that once you change it up it is no longer the "creators" design. You are all so awesome. Love this site.


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## OddBodkin (Nov 18, 2013)

I read patterns and instructions carefully. If a designer doesn't want me to sell items made from their designs, I don't buy them.


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

Yorkieschitz said:


> WOW!!! Very interesting. I always change up the patterns I purchase and get for free and it is a true statement that once you change it up it is no longer the "creators" design. You are all so awesome. Love this site.


So you are creating a derivative work.

That's included under the definition of copyright law that was posted above your post.

That's breaking the copyright law, not making it "no longer the 'creators' design."


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## ohmunner (Aug 21, 2013)

My only comment for this topic, which seems to come up quite often, is this.... when was the last time ANYONE saw a NEVER SEEN BEFORE, pattern? Everything we make, be it a sweater, hat, quilt, whatever, is a variation on some other pattern. Just because I add a stitch or two, or omit a cable, does that automatically make it an original design that can't be copied? In my opinion, this whole topic is absurd. I say go ahead and make what you want. If you want to sell it, since you're the one who chose the color, and did the work, go for it!


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## Yorkieschitz (Sep 9, 2014)

I agree and well said.


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## Circular Knitter (Aug 15, 2013)

I know I am going to get some flak about this...so PLEASE do not be nasty about it. But it baffles me to no end. Why would a designer, put their design pattern out there for sale; someone BUYS it (so they've made money on you buying it) and make it with the yarn or whatever material the buyer chooses to use, then tell them, okay now you have bought it with your money (which now is a profit in my pocket), but you cannot reproduce it. I'll stick to FREE and then I can work whatever design element "I" want into the pattern.


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## Sorlenna (Feb 17, 2011)

I always include notice that the pattern (writing and pictures) are copyrighted to me (because that is my work) but you may do as you wish with the finished item--that's *your* work and I don't presume to tell you what to do with it!

Designers do vary in their positions on this, though, and in my experience, most will say yes if you ask about using items for charity or fundraising (though some will even ask that you not produce more than a certain amount--I once bought a pattern that specified for some reason one could sell up to 20 items made from it each year...I found that a bit odd--and, by the way, I only made one and it was for a gift). It's always a good idea to ask, just in case, but I have always felt that the statement was there to keep mass production out of the equation, although honestly I don't see how anyone could make a few hundred of the same thing...I know I couldn't! You could, however, if donating the items to the bazaar, add a tag acknowledging the designer, which might drive a little business her/his way, which would be great for everyone. 

That's not the same as copying/handing out the pattern to whomever--that devalues and disrespects a designer's efforts and expense to produce the pattern in the first place. Designers have to eat and pay bills, too, and if a pattern costs $5, and someone copies it and gives it to ten people, that is $50 out of the designer's pocket. It often takes many hours of writing, knitting, and editing to get a pattern to its final form, and not too many people want to work for no pay. 

Just offering another perspective here.


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## Yorkieschitz (Sep 9, 2014)

Then what is the purpose of purchasing a pattern. You only want to make one item and keep it for your self??


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## aranita (Mar 15, 2012)

I dont know if this is correct but.....if I buy a house ( pattern).....now the house is mine because I paid for it....so I can destroy the house ....or remodel it....,.or do whatever I want with it . Am I Correct???? If the before owner didnt want to see the house destroy or remodel.....so dont sell it.


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## guen12 (Jul 28, 2011)

I was downloading a pattern to use at a later date and it has an interesting line included in the "All Rights Reserved". 
Reproduction in whole or any part of all material, including illustrations, in this publication is strictly forbidden. No part may be reproduced, stored in a "retrieval" (I added the quotation marks to call attention to this particular line)system, or transmitted in any form or by any means electronic, electrostatic, magnetic tape, mechanical, photocopying, recording or otherwise without prior permission of the copyright owners having been given in writing. The designs ib this publication are copyrighted and must not be knitted for re-sale. Reproduction of this publication is protected by copyright and is sold on the condition that it is used for non commercial purposes. 

I guess, according to this, if we as users of computers, thumb drives, cds, etc. to save patterns for future use, are in violation of copyright rules and regulations. This was at the bottom of a free pattern called The Lacy Linen Snood by Sara Thornett.


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## Sorlenna (Feb 17, 2011)

guen12 said:


> I was downloading a pattern to use at a later date and it has an interesting line included in the "All Rights Reserved".
> Reproduction in whole or any part of all material, including illustrations, in this publication is strictly forbidden. No part may be reproduced, stored in a "retrieval" (I added the quotation marks to call attention to this particular line)system, or transmitted in any form or by any means electronic, electrostatic, magnetic tape, mechanical, photocopying, recording or otherwise without prior permission of the copyright owners having been given in writing. The designs ib this publication are copyrighted and must not be knitted for re-sale. Reproduction of this publication is protected by copyright and is sold on the condition that it is used for non commercial purposes.
> 
> I guess, according to this, if we as users of computers, thumb drives, cds, etc. to save patterns for future use, are in violation of copyright rules and regulations. This was at the bottom of a free pattern called The Lacy Linen Snood by Sara Thornett.


I'm thinking the "retrieval system" is cloud storage with shared folders (where other people could access it), so then it's not "private use"--really, I mean, we have to save it somewhere...oh, this language does get confusing.


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

aranita said:


> I dont know if this is correct but.....if I buy a house ( pattern).....now the house is mine because I paid for it....so I can destroy the house ....or remodel it....,.or do whatever I want with it . Am I Correct???? If the before owner didnt want to see the house destroy or remodel.....so dont sell it.


In some ways, you're correct, but in some ways this is a bad comparison.

You can't stick the house in a Xerox machine and make 100 of them to sell.

Doing that to a pattern is very possible, though, and selling those copies or even giving them away is robbing the person who wrote the pattern.

There is _SO_ much work involved in publishing a pattern! You have to have the idea for the design, possibly sketch it out, figure out how to construct it, actually knit it, possibly several times, write out all the directions, proofread all of it, find a model or a place to photograph it, do the photography, do the page layout for it, proof it all again, and make a PDF. This is very time consuming, and a lot of work. Someone who goes to all that trouble should be compensated for their time and hard work. Copyright lets them do that and makes lots of patterns available for you.

Free patterns are frequently written by new knitters who managed to design something and want to show off that they can do it.

I keep reading over and over again how people who are on this forum (who will buy yarn and needles) are refusing to pay anything for patterns. Those same people are complaining that the patterns they get free are confusing, have mistakes, and just can't be knit the way the instructions say to knit them. You get what you pay for.

The laws are there so you can enjoy patterns now and in the future. Try to circumvent those laws, and you're wrecking your own future of available patterns.


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## gravelgert66 (Feb 21, 2011)

aranita said:


> I dont know if this is correct but.....if I buy a house ( pattern).....now the house is mine because I paid for it....so I can destroy the house ....or remodel it....,.or do whatever I want with it . Am I Correct???? If the before owner didnt want to see the house destroy or remodel.....so dont sell it.


I agree! :thumbup:


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## Siouxiq (Aug 26, 2011)

Circular Knitter said:


> I know I am going to get some flak about this...so PLEASE do not be nasty about it. But it baffles me to no end. Why would a designer, put their design pattern out there for sale; someone BUYS it (so they've made money on you buying it) and make it with the yarn or whatever material the buyer chooses to use, then tell them, okay now you have bought it with your money (which now is a profit in my pocket), but you cannot reproduce it. I'll stick to FREE and then I can work whatever design element "I" want into the pattern.


Most, if not all, of the free designs are also copyrighted. It's the design, not the cost.


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## CuriousKitty (Dec 19, 2013)

lostarts said:


> In some ways, you're correct, but in some ways this is a bad comparison.
> 
> You can't stick the house in a Xerox machine and make 100 of them to sell.
> 
> ...


Thank you! Well said! I'd been thinking the same thing...to create and fully execute a usable pattern takes a lot of work, from its conception to (how many???) test runs (thank goodness for those willing to test the patterns!) until it's ready to release. Compensation is just a fragment of what goes into it...and no one is forcing another to purchase it. As long as the pattern cost isn't exorbitant, if it's something I really want, I'm happy to pay for their hard work! The only time I resent it is when they have a snarky attitude when contacting them for any questions. A bad attitude shows unprofessionalism and immaturity (or overblown ego). Those will not get my business, repeat or otherwise. But, we are blessed to have so many beautiful patterns available to us, reasonably priced and free!
Oh, and I always credit the (original) designer whenever possible...that's not only the correct thing to do (whether stated or not), but also shows your appreciation for their work and something you admire...


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## circularknitter (Jan 11, 2014)

To me, if I buy a knitting pattern, then what I do with the knitted product is my business. As long as I do not sell the "pattern". The fact a person has sold me the pattern, they have given me the right to knit that pattern as many times as I like otherwise whats the point of buying a pattern.

I think some people who sell patterns put the standard copyright words on the document because its "the thing" to do. But they dont really understand the copyright. I will continue to knit as many items of the pattern that I purchased as I like and do with them what I want. Have a good day all. Be happy.


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## gravelgert66 (Feb 21, 2011)

I agree! :thumbup:


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SharonKay222 said:


> That's right Bakrmom. Copyright covers the intellectual claim on the pattern as you explained it. But the owner of the copyright can't dictate how the finished product can be used. In any case I could see where it might be inappropriate to use someone else's pattern to mass produce items for sale, but I can't imagine that anyone could object to a few items sold at a local event.


I had read recently where there were raids on distributors of knockoffs of designer shoes, clothes, and handbags. They happen periodically, and affect original manufacturers like Rolex, Gucci, Prada, and other expensive brands. I doubt there would be a raid of the First Baptist Christmas Bazaar for the baby sweaters made from a pattern in Interweave Magazine.

But there was a thread a year or so ago where a designer contributed her thoughts. She saw someone selling a sweater made from her copyrighted pattern on eBay, she sued, and apparently she won in small claims court and the seller was fined. There are fine points to the laws, so I would advise keeping a low profile, and stay with generic patterns where nobody can prove a copyright. After all, if you make a basic top down slip over with random cables as the design, or a basic sock with a basket weave pattern, who could sue and prove design theft? As one of the other KPers wrote, you can't get a copyright on a basic apron pattern.


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## Augustgran (Apr 16, 2011)

Siouxiq said:


> As a designer, I rely on copyright laws, and I respect those of others. Professional designers depend on the income from the sale of their patterns. If you make items for sale from patterns that are not your own, you are infringing on the designers rights, and compromising their income stream. So, ethically, morally and legally it is the wrong thing to do.


I am not going to copy,handout,pass along any part of the pattern , I also will NOT claim to be the designer of the pattern at all!that I had to pay for $10 for a bootie and hat pattern (not cheap)for
I just seems to me if I am following the rules about all of the copying,claiming as on rules.
How does that make the designer suffer?I personally would have no problem letting someone know where to purchase the pattern.

It's just seems to me the people who are going to BUY a pattern to knit or crochet are NOT going to buy the finished garment from the designer unless it would be a ONE OF A KIND> Never to be made again!!
So the argument that knitters and crocheters are taking business id silly, if you want to keep your patterns private DO NOT SELL THEM!! Make and sell the garment yourself
:thumbup:


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## Augustgran (Apr 16, 2011)

Lndyf9 said:


> Just go ahead and make them and sell them at the bazaar who's going to know anyway, I would be honoured if anyone liked my patterns enough to use them. I would hate it if someone claimed them to be their own though, it's only right to give credit to the designer so if someone were to ask if they were made from your pattern just say no and if they would like the pattern you can give them a link.


 I would even go as far as printing out her website info and tuck it in the bag with the item but know I think I will just use something else or see what I can come up with myself. So it is really her that has lost with her "attitude" my supplying 5 site listing info to people could have led to more and more people checking out her site and possibly buying,
She won;t get any advertising from me now but I will make sure people know it is NOT my design and can be found on the net.

HER LOSS!

:thumbup:


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## aranita (Mar 15, 2012)

circularknitter said:


> To me, if I buy a knitting pattern, then what I do with the knitted product is my business. As long as I do not sell the "pattern". The fact a person has sold me the pattern, they have given me the right to knit that pattern as many times as I like otherwise whats the point of buying a pattern.
> 
> I think some people who sell patterns put the standard copyright words on the document because its "the thing" to do. But they dont really understand the copyright. I will continue to knit as many items of the pattern that I purchased as I like and do with them what I want. Have a good day all. Be happy.


 :thumbup:


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## OddBodkin (Nov 18, 2013)

I am very happy to pay for well designed patterns if I have permission to make as many as I like. I am also very happy to give credit to the designer and to send others to the designer's web site. If the description says that I can't sell garments made from the pattern, however, I won't buy it.

Thank you to all of you designers who allow those of us who love your patterns to make and sell them to others. Hugs to you all.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

CuriousKitty said:


> Thank you! Well said! I'd been thinking the same thing...to create and fully execute a usable pattern takes a lot of work, from its conception to (how many???) test runs (thank goodness for those willing to test the patterns!) until it's ready to release. Compensation is just a fragment of what goes into it...and no one is forcing another to purchase it. As long as the pattern cost isn't exorbitant, if it's something I really want, I'm happy to pay for their hard work! The only time I resent it is when they have a snarky attitude when contacting them for any questions. A bad attitude shows unprofessionalism and immaturity (or overblown ego). Those will not get my business, repeat or otherwise. But, we are blessed to have so many beautiful patterns available to us, reasonably priced and free!
> Oh, and I always credit the (original) designer whenever possible...that's not only the correct thing to do (whether stated or not), but also shows your appreciation for their work and something you admire...


Guess the poster you were replying to hasn't heard of 3D printing. Check it out. They are 3d printing houses now.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

grandmasheryl said:


> I am not going to copy,handout,pass along any part of the pattern , I also will NOT claim to be the designer of the pattern at all!that I had to pay for $10 for a bootie and hat pattern (not cheap)for
> I just seems to me if I am following the rules about all of the copying,claiming as on rules.
> How does that make the designer suffer?I personally would have no problem letting someone know where to purchase the pattern.
> 
> ...


Once you make something it belongs to you and you can do what you want with it. And you may sell it. All the goobldey **** about not selling is just that. It IS NOT part of the copyright of the pattern itself.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> I had read recently where there were raids on distributors of knockoffs of designer shoes, clothes, and handbags. They happen periodically, and affect original manufacturers like Rolex, Gucci, Prada, and other expensive brands. I doubt there would be a raid of the First Baptist Christmas Bazaar for the baby sweaters made from a pattern in Interweave Magazine.
> 
> But there was a thread a year or so ago where a designer contributed her thoughts. She saw someone selling a sweater made from her copyrighted pattern on eBay, she sued, and apparently she won in small claims court and the seller was fined. There are fine points to the laws, so I would advise keeping a low profile, and stay with generic patterns where nobody can prove a copyright. After all, if you make a basic top down slip over with random cables as the design, or a basic sock with a basket weave pattern, who could sue and prove design theft? As one of the other KPers wrote, you can't get a copyright on a basic apron pattern.


If that is the truth then I don't see any reason for her not posting the case for us to read. IF is a big word.


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## superjan (Sep 10, 2011)

Siouxiq said:


> As a designer, I rely on copyright laws, and I respect those of others. Professional designers depend on the income from the sale of their patterns. If you make items for sale from patterns that are not your own, you are infringing on the designers rights, and compromising their income stream. So, ethically, morally and legally it is the wrong thing to do.


Sorry but I don't understand this. What about all the people who can't knit crochet or sew. They would NOT be buying the patterns anyway.So not sure how that affects a pattern writer's income stream.


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## MsJackie (Nov 22, 2011)

grandmasheryl said:


> Pattern is for personal use only and not be used to create items for commercial purposes. This pattern can not be reproduced in any form or by any electronic or mechanical means without permission. Images are the property of the photographer and may not be reproduced without written permission. Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy
> I took out the name of the artist,
> I understand I cannot, sell,copy,distribute the pattern or claim it as my own, or any apart as my design.
> What about the sections where it is wrote note for commercial purposes?
> ...


If it's a different designer, try asking. When I asked the lady who designed the dead fish hats, she was very pleasant and appreciated me asking.


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## sherrit (Jul 20, 2014)

So how would you know if there is a patent on a pattern?


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## sherrit (Jul 20, 2014)

Siouxiq said:


> You can find a really good definition under wikipedia. It says this in part:
> "Exclusive rights
> 
> There are six basic rights protected by copyright, sometimes called the six "pillars" of copyright.[citation needed] The owner of copyright has the exclusive right to do and to authorize others to do the following:
> ...


Does anyone know what a derivative work is, legally? Is it the article of clothing made from the pattern? Is it a new pattern made from the original pattern but with a few changes?


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## sherrit (Jul 20, 2014)

Siouxiq said:


> As a designer, I rely on copyright laws, and I respect those of others. Professional designers depend on the income from the sale of their patterns. If you make items for sale from patterns that are not your own, you are infringing on the designers rights, and compromising their income stream. So, ethically, morally and legally it is the wrong thing to do.


I'm having a little trouble with this, Siouxiq. I appreciate a creative, well-thought out and well-written pattern and I am happy to pay for one. You will have income from the sale of your pattern to me. But if I knit a garment from your pattern, using my own creativity as regards color, type or yarn, using my own time and my own talent, isn't that worthy of remuneration, too? You could say that I should design my own patterns if I want to sell garments made from them, but I have no skill as a designer. It seems to me that we are talking about 2 different activities--designing and knitting--each involving somewhat different skills and each having its own difficulties and each being time-consuming. Yes, I know the skill sets are overlapping, but the time involved most likely isn't.


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## olbiddy (Feb 27, 2012)

My biggest gripe is with the seller who madly promotes her pattern, friendly greetings, explanations, illustrations etc, but it is only after your have paid for and downloaded the pattern that you find that all the friendliness has gone, and in it's place is a list of do's and don'ts, not available to you before. The overwhelming temptation is to do what I damn well like with the pattern.


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## LilgirlCA (Jan 22, 2011)

Circular Knitter said:


> I know I am going to get some flak about this...so PLEASE do not be nasty about it. But it baffles me to no end. Why would a designer, put their design pattern out there for sale; someone BUYS it (so they've made money on you buying it) and make it with the yarn or whatever material the buyer chooses to use, then tell them, okay now you have bought it with your money (which now is a profit in my pocket), but you cannot reproduce it. I'll stick to FREE and then I can work whatever design element "I" want into the pattern.


Some designers also make up and sell the designs. If you also make the design and sell your product, it can infringe

Copyrights also attach to 'free' designs - just because the designer gives the design away for free, does not negate their copyrights. The design is still covered and restrictions on their use can still apply


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## RobbiD (Nov 13, 2012)

I have noticed that many people on KP have very strong opinions on copyrights. One person brought up officially licensed products by referencing Walt Disney. It surprises me that with all the posters on this thread who are adamant that copyrights should not be infringed upon, never say *anything* to people who ask for free patterns and charts for sport team and other (i.e. Harley Davidson) logos or mascots. These are not only copyrighted, they are *licensed* logos, owned by the teams as well as the NFL, NHL, MLB, NBA and the manufacturers (in the case of Harley). On order to be reproduced, even for personal use, the licensing fee must be paid. That's why you don'e see free patterns that have Disney characters incorporated into them, and why your hear the long disclaimers at the end of a baseball, football, basketball, etc., game broadcast. I wonder how many think nothing of recording a sporting event to share with their friends at a later date? The Superbowl comes to mind. The name "Superbowl" cannot be used unless the proper licensing fee has been paid. That's why so many store advertisements include phrases such as "The Big Game", or "The Big Match Up" or some other alternative name. If you are going to advocate absolute compliance regarding copyright, be consistent and advocate compliance for *all* copyrighted materials, not just some.


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## guen12 (Jul 28, 2011)

With all the discussions and different views on this particular subject, I don't know how the gift of knitting has survived over the years. Maybe it was a black market hobby for a view years until the knitting community felt it was save for this gift to come out in the open. I strongly suspect it will always be out in the open from hear on in. The young people who are coming into there own and being taught by there gr. mothers/mothers,teachers/ etc. will find there way just like the KPer's have and will continue.


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## LilgirlCA (Jan 22, 2011)

RobbiD said:


> I have noticed that many people on KP have very strong opinions on copyrights. One person brought up officially licensed products by referencing Walt Disney. It surprises me that with all the posters on this thread who are adamant that copyrights should not be infringed upon, never say *anything* to people who ask for free patterns and charts for sport team and other (i.e. Harley Davidson) logos or mascots. These are not only copyrighted, they are *licensed* logos, owned by the teams as well as the NFL, NHL, MLB, NBA and the manufacturers (in the case of Harley). On order to be reproduced, even for personal use, the licensing fee must be paid. That's why you don'e see free patterns that have Disney characters incorporated into them, and why your hear the long disclaimers at the end of a baseball, football, basketball, etc., game broadcast. I wonder how many think nothing of recording a sporting event to share with their friends at a later date? The Superbowl comes to mind. The name "Superbowl" cannot be used unless the proper licensing fee has been paid. That's why so many store advertisements include phrases such as "The Big Game", or "The Big Match Up" or some other alternative name. If you are going to advocate absolute compliance regarding copyright, be consistent and advocate compliance for *all* copyrighted materials, not just some.


Sports leagues (baseball, football, soccer etc), equipment manufacturers (John Deere, etc), vehicle manufacturers (Ford, Volkswagon, Harley Davidson, etc), sports equipment manufacturers (Nike, etc), sororities and clubs (college sororities, Lions, Elks, etc), franchises (McDonalds, etc) all have protected their logos.

They have the money to protect their logos from reproduction and can afford the legal costs to defend their rights. THEY do defend their rights. You don't find many of these cases because they start with a letter to 'cease and desist'. Most crafters do not have the money to pursue - especially if they consult an attorney and learn the potential costs.

When the sewing/embroidery machines with the built-in Disney designs were popular, Disney had staff on the look out for their designs at craft shows and they took action when found.

At Disneyland in southern California, clothing with Disney designs that are not purchased from Disney enterprises - ie, made on these embroidery machines, cannot be worn into the venue. Employees stationed at the gate stopped people, including children, and they either had to change or leave.

Most crochet and knitting designers do not have the money to fully defend their designs. This does not mean the that the design is not protected.


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## RobbiD (Nov 13, 2012)

LilgirlCA said:


> Sports leagues (baseball, football, soccer etc), equipment manufacturers (John Deere, etc), vehicle manufacturers (Ford, Volkswagon, Harley Davidson, etc), sports equipment manufacturers (Nike, etc), sororities and clubs (college sororities, Lions, Elks, etc), franchises (McDonalds, etc) all have protected their logos.
> 
> They have the money to protect their logos from reproduction and can afford the legal costs to defend their rights. THEY do defend their rights. You don't find many of these cases because they start with a letter to 'cease and desist'. Most crafters do not have the money to pursue - especially if they consult an attorney and learn the potential costs.
> 
> ...


I am not disagreeing with you, just observing that those who are loudest about protecting the copyrights of knitting and crochet designers are inexplicably silent when the copyrights of others are openly infringed upon.


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## Sorlenna (Feb 17, 2011)

RobbiD said:


> I am not disagreeing with you, just observing that those who are loudest about protecting the copyrights of knitting and crochet designers are inexplicably silent when the copyrights of others are openly infringed upon.


I'm not. I will never promote or produce any item that violates someone's copyright (and that is why I boycott the DROPS designs, as they are blatantly ripping off other designers all the time). I often send notes to people in pm about things like that.


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## Augustgran (Apr 16, 2011)

olbiddy said:


> My biggest gripe is with the seller who madly promotes her pattern, friendly greetings, explanations, illustrations etc, but it is only after your have paid for and downloaded the pattern that you find that all the friendliness has gone, and in it's place is a list of do's and don'ts, not available to you before. The overwhelming temptation is to do what I damn well like with the pattern.


BINGO !! thats what happened to me! besides the pattern being listed at $8 USA and she issued an invoice for $10 !! Like a goofball I paid it but I really liked it so I bought it,
Then once I FINALLY got the pdf came all the do nots!and not alloweds! If I had seen that anywhere on her pattern site , I would not have purchased her pattern.
I have let her know about this now too as I was very pis*y after driving 3 hours in the rain from my DIL dads funeral. 
Low and behold it's on her site NOW, you betcha!.
I should have screen shot it before I emailed her.
:roll:


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## gravelgert66 (Feb 21, 2011)

grandmasheryl said:


> BINGO !! thats what happened to me! besides the pattern being listed at $8 USA and she issued an invoice for $10 !! Like a goofball I paid it but I really liked it so I bought it,
> Then once I FINALLY got the pdf came all the do nots!and not alloweds! If I had seen that anywhere on her pattern site , I would not have purchased her pattern.
> I have let her know about this now too as I was very pis*y after driving 3 hours in the rain from my DIL dads funeral.
> Low and behold it's on her site NOW, you betcha!.
> ...


Good For You! A would have done the same. Unfair with the do's and not's after the fact.


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## Evie RM (Sep 19, 2012)

grandmasheryl said:


> Pattern is for personal use only and not be used to create items for commercial purposes. This pattern can not be reproduced in any form or by any electronic or mechanical means without permission. Images are the property of the photographer and may not be reproduced without written permission. Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy
> I took out the name of the artist,
> I understand I cannot, sell,copy,distribute the pattern or claim it as my own, or any apart as my design.
> What about the sections where it is wrote note for commercial purposes?
> ...


Most of the free patterns I am finding on line have the statement that the pattern cannot be copied, reproduced and distributed, but anything made from the pattern can be sold, but to please give the information to the buyer back to the website so the designer gets credit for the pattern. Almost every pattern has this. It is very few that state that an item made from the pattern cannot be sold. There are so many patterns on line, I would not choose one from someone as nasty as you say this person is. I would go on line and find a different pattern by someone else.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

grandmasheryl said:


> Pattern is for personal use only and not be used to create items for commercial purposes. This pattern can not be reproduced in any form or by any electronic or mechanical means without permission. Images are the property of the photographer and may not be reproduced without written permission. Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy
> I took out the name of the artist,
> I understand I cannot, sell,copy,distribute the pattern or claim it as my own, or any apart as my design.
> What about the sections where it is wrote note for commercial purposes?
> ...


Blue prints are a pattern. So if I order blueprints for a house, pay very good money for them I can't sell the house after I build it. I don't thinks so.


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## Siouxiq (Aug 26, 2011)

grandmasheryl said:


> I am not going to copy,handout,pass along any part of the pattern , I also will NOT claim to be the designer of the pattern at all!that I had to pay for $10 for a bootie and hat pattern (not cheap)for
> I just seems to me if I am following the rules about all of the copying,claiming as on rules.
> How does that make the designer suffer?I personally would have no problem letting someone know where to purchase the pattern.
> 
> ...


That's what I do, mostly.


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## Siouxiq (Aug 26, 2011)

sherritilstra said:


> I'm having a little trouble with this, Siouxiq. I appreciate a creative, well-thought out and well-written pattern and I am happy to pay for one. You will have income from the sale of your pattern to me. But if I knit a garment from your pattern, using my own creativity as regards color, type or yarn, using my own time and my own talent, isn't that worthy of remuneration, too? You could say that I should design my own patterns if I want to sell garments made from them, but I have no skill as a designer. It seems to me that we are talking about 2 different activities--designing and knitting--each involving somewhat different skills and each having its own difficulties and each being time-consuming. Yes, I know the skill sets are overlapping, but the time involved most likely isn't.


I think the thing to do is contact the designer and get an agreement about using the design. I have sold very few of my designs, and since they were published I really don't know how they were used. Mainly, I design and make the articles for sale. That way my customers get an original without worrying that there will be one just like it out there. Spinning my own yarn for some of the items makes them even more original.
As to the law, I'm just forwarding what is written. This conversation should be taken to Ravelry!


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## Siouxiq (Aug 26, 2011)

RobbiD said:


> I have noticed that many people on KP have very strong opinions on copyrights. One person brought up officially licensed products by referencing Walt Disney. It surprises me that with all the posters on this thread who are adamant that copyrights should not be infringed upon, never say *anything* to people who ask for free patterns and charts for sport team and other (i.e. Harley Davidson) logos or mascots. These are not only copyrighted, they are *licensed* logos, owned by the teams as well as the NFL, NHL, MLB, NBA and the manufacturers (in the case of Harley). On order to be reproduced, even for personal use, the licensing fee must be paid. That's why you don'e see free patterns that have Disney characters incorporated into them, and why your hear the long disclaimers at the end of a baseball, football, basketball, etc., game broadcast. I wonder how many think nothing of recording a sporting event to share with their friends at a later date? The Superbowl comes to mind. The name "Superbowl" cannot be used unless the proper licensing fee has been paid. That's why so many store advertisements include phrases such as "The Big Game", or "The Big Match Up" or some other alternative name. If you are going to advocate absolute compliance regarding copyright, be consistent and advocate compliance for *all* copyrighted materials, not just some.


Well said. I'm wondering when there will be a thread about the requirement to attach information about country of origin, content and care instructions for ANY item of clothing that is sold.


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## Siouxiq (Aug 26, 2011)

RobbiD said:


> I am not disagreeing with you, just observing that those who are loudest about protecting the copyrights of knitting and crochet designers are inexplicably silent when the copyrights of others are openly infringed upon.


I sometimes use other peoples designs because I love well designed items, but they are only for me and my family, never for sale. I'm in a quandary right now as I have an extra scarf that my g'daughter didn't particularly like. I'm torn between keeping it myself or ripping it out. Sigh.
And yes, I do defend other artists rights. You know.... The Golden Rule.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

ICE said:


> WinfingRoad,
> As I said, it was a long story! Started with phone calls, emails, letters and visits! And YES I did, and do check id's. As to your question: "Where was Volkswagon?" What is the relevance?
> Comments were to "inform" the readers of our company's "run in" with a LARGE corporation. NO more, NO less. Take what you want from it and act accordingly.
> ICE


Why didn't Volkswagon sue.


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## farmkiti (Oct 13, 2011)

fourbyin said:


> this is a hot button topic for sure


Love your ativar!

Boy, there are a lot of opinions on this topic. And to think I just threw mine out there without much thought. However, I did work as an underwriter for a large insurance company, and I suppose I was using the most conservative meaning of the wording. I was lucky enough to work for a company that actually took any unclear meanings to be in the interest of the customer, so the customer got the benefit of the doubt in contract wording. I guess that really doesn't apply here. I was just giving the designer the benefit of the doubt. But after reading all this stuff, I don't know what is the actual law, so I suppose I'll continue using free patterns and making up my own. I don't sell anything much anyway, so it's a non-issue for me.

Ooops - I did once sell a baby blanket (sans profit, really just the cost of materials) made from an online pattern. But it was a free pattern, so I guess I'm OK. And it didn't have any of that wording on it. This is a really hot topic, isn't it? I can see the merits of both sides. :roll:


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## mavisb (Apr 18, 2011)

You cannot just change one part of the pattern to make it your own. This subject comes up quite often and there was one sometime ago which was very informative. There is a copyright on all patterns and this girl doesn't want you to sell the goods or the pattern at all. I believe that if it was for charity I am sure the woman wouldn't mind you knitting to get money for a charity.


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