# Things are heating up in the world #8



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Thanks tamarque. I am taking extra C. I take the D3 2,000iu. Guess I need to amp it up.


Yep, up both of these supplements and don't be afraid of hurting yourself. The bit C is water soluble and the body will use it up very quickly if you are sick. I take 5 gr in the morning and another 5 gr about 2 hours later. Then kept taking 1 or 2 gr every hour or 2 thru out the day. Vit D3 can be taken in the 10's of 1000's when sick. Mayer Eisenstein, MD had a chart he shared with people taking 50,000 iu/day when sick. I do 10,000 iu/daily during the winter when not getting much direct sun.

And try to cut out all sugars and processed foods. They cause inflammation in the body and run down your immune system.

Feel better.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> You do not have to edit my post, my young eyes are fine and do not need bold print to read.


I did it just to point out which words I was responding to. I was being polite (look it up in the dictionary).

And if growing old is as bad as you seem to think, I hope it will never happen to you.



> I never said she posted pictures that were offensive, I said she acted like a lemming and encouraged and approved of the postings that she knew would hurt others. Never once did she (or any other AOLW) tell 'their group' to stop posting things that were knowing hurting people who were caught in the vicious crossfire to get at a few. Many innocent ladies were hurt by postings that they had no idea why someone would do that to their thread. So for Designer to come to D & P to wish people a Merry Christmas without apologizing or accepting responsibility for the pain she and others caused was hollow and just plain rude. She and other AOLW may believe that saying Merry Christmas to the women (and gentleman) on D&P will make things better is just insane thinking. One can forgive, but forgiveness does not mean that a person(s) forgets the pain and should not. To forget is to open one's self to be a target again, which is just stupid. If one really understands the story of Jesus and turning the other cheek, one would realize that it is a form of passive resistance because when one turns the other cheek that way it is almost impossible for a right-handed person to strike that cheek. So one is dared to strike back, but they know that it won't be affective. Interesting.


I couldn't read most of this, because it's such crap. But I'd like you to see what you actually wrote, not what you claim you wrote. I'm curious to see how you weasel out of it. But I will mention, as I did a couple of times earlier, that Designer tried to stop us from posting those messages; she did not do anything like a lemming, and she did not encourage us.

You COWs are just too sensitive to live in the real world, aren't you?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> lovethelake
> we get, we get it. You will never stretch out a hand for the sake of Peace. We have known that all along, you underlining it is really not necessary. HAPPY NEW YEAR. Huck


Is it still the season of Good Will to Men/Women? Someone should keep her informed.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> According to lovethelake AOLW means "angry old liberal women".
> D&P is for "FF Wearing Denim &Pearls" thread here in Chit Chat.


Thanks for the dictionary lesson. Can't keep up with all the alphabet soup.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Yeah. Can you come downstate to see us? PP, Camacho, The Brat (?) and you on January 16ish. How far up are you? I used to live in Irvington New York. PM if you want more info.


Camacho said she'll come in on the 15th and go back on the 16th, so people should leave the 15th open.

And I invited someone who live in Massachusetts, who said she'd try to work things out to come. Now we have to work on getting New Yorkers.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Camacho said she'll come in on the 15th and go back on the 16th, so people should leave the 15th open.
> 
> And I invited someone who live in Massachusetts, who said she'd try to work things out to come. Now we have to work on getting New Yorkers.


I am confused.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> No, custard is made with eggs, and pudding isn't.


My homemade pudding has egg yolks in it.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Geez, I leave for a few days and come back to "Spotted Dick" and Treacle. The names sound like STD's.
> My future son in law gave me a mega cold for Christmas. Gotta love that...not!
> So how many do we have for the New York trip?


I'm sorry you haven't been feeling well. Hope you're better.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> I am confused.


Listen to PP and not me. So the 15th it is.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm sorry you haven't been feeling well. Hope you're better.


Thank you, KFN. It was inevitable that I would catch this. My Sweet GD has it too. We had lots of cuddle time today.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> You do not have to edit my post, my young eyes are fine and do not need bold print to read.
> 
> I never said she posted pictures that were offensive, I said she acted like a lemming and encouraged and approved of the postings that she knew would hurt others. Never once did she (or any other AOLW) tell 'their group' to stop posting things that were knowing hurting people who were caught in the vicious crossfire to get at a few. Many innocent ladies were hurt by postings that they had no idea why someone would do that to their thread. So for Designer to come to D & P to wish people a Merry Christmas without apologizing or accepting responsibility for the pain she and others caused was hollow and just plain rude. She and other AOLW may believe that saying Merry Christmas to the women (and gentleman) on D&P will make things better is just insane thinking. One can forgive, but forgiveness does not mean that a person(s) forgets the pain and should not. To forget is to open one's self to be a target again, which is just stupid. If one really understands the story of Jesus and turning the other cheek, one would realize that it is a form of passive resistance because when one turns the other cheek that way it is almost impossible for a right-handed person to strike that cheek. So one is dared to strike back, but they know that it won't be affective. Interesting.


I try very hard to not get involved in this crap, but I think you're out of line! Shirley is NOT responsible for the behavior of others! Not even her friends! And if she wants to go on D&P to wish a Merry Christmas to those she considers friends, she has every right to do so. I did the same! I can't even imagine why you think she owes anyone an apology for someone else's behavior. For you to claim that "many innocent ladies" were hurt by postings and had no idea why, is bologna! They know exactly why! It's because SOME in their group like to stalk and start fights! Look in the mirror! If your friends were hurt, YOU had a part in it, NOT Shirley! If you want to fight with the libs, don't expect them to sit back and take it! You get what you give!

And DONT use JESUS to excuse your rotten behavior! I think you should read about JESUS, and learn about who and what HE is, before you make stupid comments like you did! JESUS was about forgiveness!!! Forgiveness has nothing to do with being a target!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I think that Designer should be the one to pursue this as it dealt with her. I think Lakes is trying to be reasonable. Plus the incident happened awhile ago and peace has been established so let us move on to new things.


Reasonable?!? How so???


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> There is quite a bit of info on saturated fats being healthy vs hydrogenated fats which are dangerous to our health. These fats have very different chemical structures and work in different ways in the body. Two sources that I often read are Mercola.com and GreenMedicine (Sayer Ji). There are others, too, but these are sites with massive libraries and good references provided.
> 
> Here is one article from Mercola's site: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/07/27/saturated-fat-cholesterol.aspx
> 
> ...


They don't like Mercola. I do! You put me on to him. I appreciate it.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Yep, up both of these supplements and don't be afraid of hurting yourself. The bit C is water soluble and the body will use it up very quickly if you are sick. I take 5 gr in the morning and another 5 gr about 2 hours later. Then kept taking 1 or 2 gr every hour or 2 thru out the day. Vit D3 can be taken in the 10's of 1000's when sick. Mayer Eisenstein, MD had a chart he shared with people taking 50,000 iu/day when sick. I do 10,000 iu/daily during the winter when not getting much direct sun.
> 
> And try to cut out all sugars and processed foods. They cause inflammation in the body and run down your immune system.
> 
> Feel better.


A few years ago, my doctor prescribed 50,000 iu's of vit D3 per day. She said I'd just pee out what I didn't need. I'm currently taking 12,000 per day.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Thank you, KFN. It was inevitable that I would catch this. My Sweet GD has it too. We had lots of cuddle time today.


Cuddle time makes everything better!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I posted my first pic - under the Sloth Really Doth Knits. OOOOOOOO!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I am confused.


We are all confused.

The story to date: Camacho lives in Mass. now but it moving to Maine soon, which is a few hours further away. She wanted to come to the city to meet her LOLL friends and others, too.

They plan to bus in on Thurs, Jan 15 and go back sometime Fri, Jan 16. Vogue Knitting Live opens that Friday, so there will be some KP people there.

So far all we've thought of is Lion Brand Studios, which is sort of Lower East Side. Camacho was also hoping to visit Ellis Island and The Cloisters (if you've never seen it, it's a beautiful place to visit), but since they're at opposite ends of Manhattan, she prob won't be able to.

I think that's all so far.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Reasonable?!? How so???


Thank you. Reasonable as a body bag!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you. Reasonable as a body bag!


Did I type "Reasonable"? I meant "reprehensible".

(Oy! I am going to the neurologists if I keep making that kind of mistake.)

Almost on another topic - have you ever held out your hand here and then have it bitten? That is just what Our Favorite Lurker did to me. Come out Lakes or should I just re-born you as Judas? Bad Lakes.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> You do not have to edit my post, my young eyes are fine and do not need bold print to read.
> 
> I never said she posted pictures that were offensive, I said she acted like a lemming and encouraged and approved of the postings that she knew would hurt others. Never once did she (or any other AOLW) tell 'their group' to stop posting things that were knowing hurting people who were caught in the vicious crossfire to get at a few. Many innocent ladies were hurt by postings that they had no idea why someone would do that to their thread. So for Designer to come to D & P to wish people a Merry Christmas without apologizing or accepting responsibility for the pain she and others caused was hollow and just plain rude. She and other AOLW may believe that saying Merry Christmas to the women (and gentleman) on D&P will make things better is just insane thinking. One can forgive, but forgiveness does not mean that a person(s) forgets the pain and should not. To forget is to open one's self to be a target again, which is just stupid. If one really understands the story of Jesus and turning the other cheek, one would realize that it is a form of passive resistance because when one turns the other cheek that way it is almost impossible for a right-handed person to strike that cheek. So one is dared to strike back, but they know that it won't be affective. Interesting.


I think your remarks have also been hurtful. Over and over and over again. Are you sorry?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Did I type "Reasonable"? I meant "reprehensible".
> 
> (Oy! I am going to the neurologists if I keep making that kind of mistake.)
> 
> Almost on another topic - have you ever held out your hand here and then have it bitten? That is just what Our Favorite Lurker did to me. Come out Lakes or should I just re-born you as Judas? Bad Lakes.


That's what happens when you try to keep one foot on either side of the fence! You must be true to yourself!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I respectfully suggest you let Designer and ltl resolve this as they see fit and refrain from comment.



SQM said:


> I think that Designer should be the one to pursue this as it dealt with her. I think Lakes is trying to be reasonable. Plus the incident happened awhile ago and peace has been established so let us move on to new things.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I couldn't read most of this, because it's such crap. But I'd like you to see what you actually wrote, not what you claim you wrote. I'm curious to see how you weasel out of it. But I will mention, as I did a couple of times earlier, that Designer tried to stop us from posting those messages; she did not do anything like a lemming, and she did not encourage us.
> 
> You COWs are just too sensitive to live in the real world, aren't you?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :thumbup:


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> That's what happens when you try to keep one foot on either side of the fence!


Zowie--sounds painful!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you. Reasonable as a body bag!


 :XD: :XD: :XD: I'd say it was less reasonable than a body bag.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Lurker=laker? I'm lost completely.



SQM said:


> Did I type "Reasonable"? I meant "reprehensible".
> 
> (Oy! I am going to the neurologists if I keep making that kind of mistake.)
> 
> Almost on another topic - have you ever held out your hand here and then have it bitten? That is just what Our Favorite Lurker did to me. Come out Lakes or should I just re-born you as Judas? Bad Lakes.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Did I type "Reasonable"? I meant "reprehensible".
> 
> (Oy! I am going to the neurologists if I keep making that kind of mistake.)
> 
> Almost on another topic - have you ever held out your hand here and then have it bitten? That is just what Our Favorite Lurker did to me. Come out Lakes or should I just re-born you as Judas? Bad Lakes.


What on earth do you think you're doing here? You typed "reasonable" and you meant "reasonable." You were wrong, but you ought to own it and not try to weasel out of it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Zowie--sounds painful!


I hope it's not one of those wrought iron jobbies with the spearheads at the top.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> I think your remarks have also been hurtful. Over and over and over again. Are you sorry?


Are you kidding?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Especially when it has those cast iron arrows at the top!
I stay on one side.



susanmos2000 said:


> Zowie--sounds painful!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Great minds? Right on target.



Poor Purl said:


> I hope it's not one of those wrought iron jobbies with the spearheads at the top.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Oops! Double post.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Zowie--sounds painful!


Apparently, it was. :XD:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Great minds? Right on target.
> 
> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


See? I have as black a sense of humor as you have.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> What on earth do you think you're doing here? You typed "reasonable" and you meant "reasonable." You were wrong, but you ought to own it and not try to weasel out of it.


Was I wrong for trying to be kind to someone?

In this case, yes.

But I will continue to be kind to others until I get evidence that I am an idiot. Got that message loud and clear. Carrying anger and grudges is not for me. Too negative.

BTW: I am a registered Independent. I don't like to be told what I can or cannot post. Does anyone like that?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I hope it's not one of those wrought iron jobbies with the spearheads at the top.


I think it was. :XD:


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Anyone have any exciting plans for New Year's Eve? Tomorrow we're heading to Northern California to hike through some hills that were once part of a quicksilver mining operation. Ordinarily I'm not a big fan of hiking, but I'm really looking forward to this--trails well maintained and not too steep, lots of dilapidated buildings to view, and perfect weather to boot.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I never doubted you did, and I love your way with words.



Poor Purl said:


> See? I have as black a sense of humor as you have.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Anyone have any exciting plans for New Year's Eve? Tomorrow we're heading to Northern California to hike through some hills that were once part of a quicksilver mining operation. Ordinarily I'm not a big fan of hiking, but I'm really looking forward to this--trails well maintained and not too steep, lots of dilapidated buildings to view, and perfect weather to boot.


No plans here. Your day sounds like fun!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Seems to be a cold front coming through. I'm not positive about Northern CA. Check local weather and be prepared. hugs



susanmos2000 said:


> Anyone have any exciting plans for New Year's Eve? Tomorrow we're heading to Northern California to hike through some hills that were once part of a quicksilver mining operation. Ordinarily I'm not a big fan of hiking, but I'm really looking forward to this--trails well maintained and not too steep, lots of dilapidated buildings to view, and perfect weather to boot.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Was I wrong for trying to be kind to someone?
> 
> In this case, yes.
> 
> ...


Who has told you what you can or cannot post? It was the other way around.

And as for being kind, I don't see whom you were being kind to, other than LTL, who wouldn't recognize kindness if it fell into her body bag.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No plans here. Your day sounds like fun!


I sure hope it will be. I've been staying busy these past few days by working in the garden, but I figure it's time for a change--my legs will no doubt be crying uncle after a day of hiking, but my poor blistered hands will thank me for it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Anyone have any exciting plans for New Year's Eve? Tomorrow we're heading to Northern California to hike through some hills that were once part of a quicksilver mining operation. Ordinarily I'm not a big fan of hiking, but I'm really looking forward to this--trails well maintained and not too steep, lots of dilapidated buildings to view, and perfect weather to boot.


This sounds wonderful. A good way to say goodbye to a bad year.

My plans are to finish a sweater I've been at since August of 2013 because I want it for a baby I'm going to meet on Jan 1 of 2015, and to bake a cake to bring along for the visit. Baguettes, too.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Was I wrong for trying to be kind to someone?
> 
> In this case, yes.
> 
> ...


It's always good to be nice...unless it comes at the expense of a friend. Sometimes, it's just nicest to say nothing at all. And if you find yourself in a position of having to choose sides, choose your friend! Shirley has been a friend to all of us! Just my opinion. Take it or leave it.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> Seems to be a cold front coming through. I'm not positive about Northern CA.


No kidding! The cold front has already arrived--the temperature here in coastal California hit a high of 51 degrees today.  I figure as long as it doesn't rain it'll up in the foothills--all that hiking should keep us warm (if not we can make a beeline back to the truck and crank up the heater).


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> This sounds wonderful. A good way to say goodbye to a bad year.
> 
> My plans are to finish a sweater I've been at since August of 2013 because I want it for a baby I'm going to meet on Jan 1 of 2015, and to bake a cake to bring along for the visit. Baguettes, too.


That sounds wonderful, Purl--especially those baguettes!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I sure hope it will be. I've been staying busy these past few days by working in the garden, but I figure it's time for a change--my legs will no doubt be crying uncle after a day of hiking, but my poor blistered hands will thank me for it.


Bring ibuprofen!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Bring ibuprofen!


It's on my checklist, Nebraska--that and Bandaids are Must Haves!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> This sounds wonderful. A good way to say goodbye to a bad year.
> 
> My plans are to finish a sweater I've been at since August of 2013 because I want it for a baby I'm going to meet on Jan 1 of 2015, and to bake a cake to bring along for the visit. Baguettes, too.


Good riddance to a bad year! I hope 2015 is different. What color is the baby sweater? Style? Who's the baby you're going to meet? What kind of cake? Mmmm! Aren't I nosy?!?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> No kidding! The cold front has already arrived--the temperature here in coastal California hit a high of 51 degrees today.  I figure as long as it doesn't rain it'll up in the foothills--all that hiking should keep us warm (if not we can make a beeline back to the truck and crank up the heater).


51 sounds balmy! It's 0 degrees here. Brrrr! I don't even need a jacket when it's 51!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> It's on my checklist, Nebraska--that and Bandaids are Must Haves!


Bandaids?!? Whadda ya need Bandaids for?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Northern AZ getting 18 inches of snow tomorrow. Desert expecting high of 49 degrees. You may be looking at rain or worse. Check local weather and, if you go, take change of dry clothes, blankets and/or garbage bags, food and water....and cell phones. Hope they work where you want to go. hugs



susanmos2000 said:


> No kidding! The cold front has already arrived--the temperature here in coastal California hit a high of 51 degrees today.  I figure as long as it doesn't rain it'll up in the foothills--all that hiking should keep us warm (if not we can make a beeline back to the truck and crank up the heater).


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Bandaids?!? Whadda ya need Bandaids for?


I figure I'll split a box between the existing blisters on my hands and those that will be covering my feet by tomorrow night.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Snowbirds from MN and Canada are sunning themselves. Natives wearing winter coats and gloves. We all wear the same clothes....just at different temperatures.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> 51 sounds balmy! It's 0 degrees here. Brrrr! I don't even need a jacket when it's 51!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I figure I'll split a box between the existing blisters on my hands and those that will be covering my feet by tomorrow night.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Neosporin is a good thing to have.



susanmos2000 said:


> I figure I'll split a box between the existing blisters on my hands and those that will be covering my feet by tomorrow night.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Snowbirds from MN and Canada are sunning themselves. Natives wearing winter coats and gloves. We all wear the same clothes....just at different temperatures.


Yup!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> Northern AZ getting 18 inches of snow tomorrow. Desert expecting high of 49 degrees. You may be looking at rain or worse. Check local weather and, if you go, take change of dry clothes, blankets and/or garbage bags, food and water....and cell phones. Hope they work where you want to go. hugs


Thanks, Dame. Weirdly enough, the thought of leaving our kitties for a couple of days seems like the biggest challenge. As always they know something's up and are at their cuddly best tonight.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> That sounds wonderful, Purl--especially those baguettes!


Those will stay home. Only the cake goes out.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Good riddance to a bad year! I hope 2015 is different. What color is the baby sweater? Style? Who's the baby you're going to meet? What kind of cake? Mmmm! Aren't I nosy?!?


Sweater is stripes of different widths from 3 different sock yarns: one solid, one variegated, one self-patterning. I guess the effect is bluish. The baby is the second child of a girl I've known since she was 2; she and DS were in day care together. Cake is lemon cake. Thanks for asking, and no, you're not nosy.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Northern AZ getting 18 inches of snow tomorrow. Desert expecting high of 49 degrees. You may be looking at rain or worse. Check local weather and, if you go, take change of dry clothes, blankets and/or garbage bags, food and water....and cell phones. Hope they work where you want to go. hugs


18 inches of snow??? You have no idea how much I envy you (or those lucky Arizonans). We don't get decent snow here any more. It's probably just as well, come to think of it, since I'm still wearing backless shoes.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Sweater is stripes of different widths from 3 different sock yarns: one solid, one variegated, one self-patterning. I guess the effect is bluish. The baby is the second child of a girl I've known since she was 2; she and DS were in day care together. Cake is lemon cake. Thanks for asking, and no, you're not nosy.


Thanks! You piqued my curiosity. The sweater sounds real cute. I found some cute yarn and thought I'd knit some sunsuits for the babies. It has red, turquoise, yellow, orange, green and white. I wasn't paying attention but it is striping. Problem? The stripes are very wide at the bottom crotch where the rows are short and narrower at the body. I don't like it! I like even, matching stripes. So now I've got to think of something else to do with the yarn. I guess I'll put together Blake's dragon. I'm tired of dragons! Drats!

The cake sounds yummy! I love lemon cake! I've got a recipe for lemon pound cake that's awesome. I may have to make it.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We've left ours by herself for a long weekend with lots of food and water. She's fine but glad to see us when we return.



susanmos2000 said:


> Thanks, Dame. Weirdly enough, the thought of leaving our kitties for a couple of days seems like the biggest challenge. As always they know something's up and are at their cuddly best tonight.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's the altitude. AZ is lucky to see snow-capped peaks in the distance while you're wearing shorts and t-shirts. Tucson is far to the south, close to Mexican border and has 10,000 ft Mt. Lemmon at the edge of town. There is a lovely area they call Summerhaven at the top. I like it. No shoveling or falling, but you get to see snow. Maybe I'll just take a picture.

Ps. I'm still in sandals.



Poor Purl said:


> 18 inches of snow??? You have no idea how much I envy you (or those lucky Arizonans). We don't get decent snow here any more. It's probably just as well, come to think of it, since I'm still wearing backless shoes.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I hate to ask this in mixed company, but what the H is Spotted Dick?


Spotted Dick is a conical, cylindrical pudding with dried fruit (sultanas, currents, raisons) and it's typically served with custard. It is deliciously divine. This winter I am going to make steamed puddings, spotted dicks and lakes of custard and weight gain be damned!

You can get Spotted Dick Pudding in a tin! Heinz make it.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> http://www.yelp.com/search?cflt=knittingsupplies&find_loc=Greenwich+Village%2C+Manhattan%2C+NY


Oh my goodness! What a scoop! I want to come to the union of KPer's New York. Eating British food and all of the Yarn crawling to be done. Heaven!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Be sure to try the Haggis or Blood Pudding! :XD: :XD: :XD:
> 
> Then I will have tea and sympathy!


KFN, stop being derogatory towards foods that you've probably never even tasted! You might surprise yourself if you do give them a try!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Elf on a shelf. Hag in a bag. What a holiday!


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Sounds like a disease to me.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: Except that it's a delectable pudding!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I mentioned that I like treacle pudding but what is a treacle? Is Aussie cuisine the same as British?


Yep! Treacle is the end product of 'cooking' sugar, similar to or the same as molasses.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, based upon much research, the reason Americans are fat is not because we're eating fried chicken, pizza and sugared cereal everyday. It's because we've allowed the chemical companies to genetically alter our food supply. Great Britain would be wise to pay attention to this and keep GMOs out. Research is being done with animals, all over the world. It's shown that GMOs cause obesity, cancer and a whole host of other problems. We've also got the chemical companies trying to put aspartame in everything, even our milk! Aspartame is a low calorie sweetener but research shows that using it causes people to feel more hungry and to eat more food, thus causing weight gain rather than weight loss. In countries where people are the leanest, they have banned GMO crops and have banned GMO imports. They're the smart ones! The chemical companies have bought off our politicians, so while we get sicker and fatter, no one will stand up to them.


I think you'll find that corn syrup is a huge culprit also.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks! You piqued my curiosity. The sweater sounds real cute. I found some cute yarn and thought I'd knit some sunsuits for the babies. It has red, turquoise, yellow, orange, green and white. I wasn't paying attention but it is striping. Problem? The stripes are very wide at the bottom crotch where the rows are short and narrower at the body. I don't like it! I like even, matching stripes. So now I've got to think of something else to do with the yarn. I guess I'll put together Blake's dragon. I'm tired of dragons! Drats!
> 
> The cake sounds yummy! I love lemon cake! I've got a recipe for lemon pound cake that's awesome. I may have to make it.


With the self-striping yarn, you don't have to let it be boss. Make the stripes the width you want; then unwind to the next color. You end up with a lot of short cut-off pieces, but you can use those for something else. If you can't think of anything, save them for nesting birds.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Things are heating up in the kitchen here. Thanks for the info. The British restaurant is run by Brits.
> 
> Why isn't Cornwell considered a part of England? It looks great on Doc Martin.


Cornwell is part of England. My father's family came from there.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Oh my goodness! What a scoop! I want to come to the union of KPer's New York. Eating British food and all of the Yarn crawling to be done. Heaven!


Well, what are you waiting for?

Wait, leave Australia and come to New York for English food and yarn? What's the opposite of carrying coals to Newcastle?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Suet make the best pasty, whether is be sweet or savory pastry.


My mother told me she and her siblings grew up on lard sandwiches and as a result, my older sister and brother were given lard sandwiches in their school lunches from time to time. Ma would season the lard with various things and add gravy. My sister and brother really liked it. My twin and I missed out. We'd get thickened gravy sandwiches every Monday after the Sunday Roast. Yum!

No cardiac/cholesterol history on my mother's side of the family.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I had not heard of frozen custard so did a quick net scan and came up with the following information.
> 
> Frozen custard was invented in Coney Island, New York in 1919, when ice cream vendors Archie and Elton Kohr found that adding egg yolks to ice cream created a smoother texture and helped the ice cream stay cold longer. In their first weekend on the boardwalk, they sold 18,460 cones.
> 
> ...


Or you could make your own Eve! I'm going to check to see if there are any recipes!!!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Geez, I leave for a few days and come back to "Spotted Dick" and Treacle. The names sound like STD's.
> My future son in law gave me a mega cold for Christmas. Gotta love that...not!
> So how many do we have for the New York trip?


Hey Bratty, nice to see you! Hope you feel better soon.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> We decided to make this a "Things are cooling down" thread.
> 
> I think Spotted Dick is an STD. Not treacle. That's a urinary tract problem or else a bladder problem. Depends.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Sounds like a fun outing.
> Is that a Friday? I might be able to do that.


Good to see you too tamarque!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> A few years ago, my doctor prescribed 50,000 iu's of vit D3 per day. She said I'd just pee out what I didn't need. I'm currently taking 12,000 per day.


1000 international units of Vitamin D3 per day is the therapeutic dose for maintaining Vitamin D3 blood levels in the absence of sun exposure. Vitamin D3 is required to facilitate bone uptake of calcium which is particularly important in preventing osteoperosis.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> It's on my checklist, Nebraska--that and Bandaids are Must Haves!


Happy hiking Mos and Happy New Year!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> With the self-striping yarn, you don't have to let it be boss. Make the stripes the width you want; then unwind to the next color. You end up with a lot of short cut-off pieces, but you can use those for something else. If you can't think of anything, save them for nesting birds.


Like you PP, I'll be spending New Years Eve knitting (tonight). Son is away at a music festival so it's nice and quiet.

Hope you and all of the Ladies and loved ones have a very Happy New Year and I also hope there is more peace than not in the world for 2015.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Well, what are you waiting for?
> 
> Wait, leave Australia and come to New York for English food and yarn? What's the opposite of carrying coals to Newcastle?


Ah yes, but any excuse to get back to NYC and to meet all of the ladies! Plus, it wouldn't be all about British cuisine and yarn, not in NYC!


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> A few years ago, my doctor prescribed 50,000 iu's of vit D3 per day. She said I'd just pee out what I didn't need. I'm currently taking 12,000 per day.


Lucky you that you have a practitioner who is really health oriented. However, she is wrong about peeing out what you don't need. The science is that the body uses the supplements and when it is done it processes them out. They are not extra, especially vit D from everything I have read. The 12,000/day is reasonable if you do not get sun regularly. Do you get your blood levels tested at all? If you are seeing a licensed practitioner they should do this; if not tell them to do it and make sure you get the results in actual numbers, not just a general judgement about the results. Doctors don't like giving results and often say you are fine or some such comment. Your body; your information.

Funny experience (one of many). I have a family that I visit where the H is a doctor. During my recent visit one of the kids (almost age 50) had an exam and gave his father the test results. I took a look at them and said there is no Vit D test and tossed the papers back. The father came back at me saying doctors always test for Vit D levels, blah, blah..... This is an ongoing battle between us, for years. He came back at me later saying, that was a good catch. How could they not do that test...... My experience is that most medical people still do not do this test and ignore nutrition for the most part. They are not trained in nutrition at all. And often nutrition is dismissed as irrelevant or useless with very minor exceptions such as Vit B12.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> 1000 international units of Vitamin D3 per day is the therapeutic dose for maintaining Vitamin D3 blood levels in the absence of sun exposure. Vitamin D3 is required to facilitate bone uptake of calcium which is particularly important in preventing osteoperosis.


Your information is not complete. First of all Vit D is used in at least 2000, yes 2000 body functions. It is really a hormone altho not sure why it got classified as a vitamin. Probably an error made decades ago and never reclassified. There is hardly a biochemical process in the body that doesn't require Vit D. As for bones: Vit D in conjunction with Calc, Mag and Vit K2 (not K1) helps keep the calcium where it belongs in the body.
1000 IU/daily is a very low dosage. If you want to know what your body is doing then have the 25 OH-D hydroxy blood test taken. Not sure of the regs in Au but some States here allow home tests and some do not. Unfortunately NY is one of the few states that don't allow home testing.

The Vit D Council is well known for its extensive information on Vit D. You can access it here:

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/about-vitamin-d/testing-for-vitamin-d/

And you can buy test kits from them. Sorry I don't know what is locally available to you. It is believed that a healthy blood level is at 50 if you are in general good health. If other conditions prevail, many nutritionally focused practitioners up that level to 70 or 80.

GreenMed and Mercola.com are 2 other great online free resources on health.

I use Vit D3 at 10,000 iu/daily particularly in the winter. It has such an immediate affect on my SAD which took me years to recognize. This is not about calcium in the bones but how my very basic sense of well being. I have always been a big sun person--crave it.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Good to see you too tamarque!


Same here.

Can't believe it is New Years Eve tonite. Way too cold for me to go out. I think me and the computer, TV and knitting will be my companions.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Well, what are you waiting for?
> 
> Wait, leave Australia and come to New York for English food and yarn? What's the opposite of carrying coals to Newcastle?


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Happy hiking Mos and Happy New Year!


Thanks, Wombat! Happy New Year to you as well and of course all the Liberal Ladies. Let's hope 2015 turns out to be a better year than last.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Merry New Year to all and to all some good bubbly!


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Did you all get together? And if so, where?


We usually got together at my Grandparents house for dinner. We had a grownup's table and a children's table. There were usually 12 or so who couldn't make it all the way to the Left Coast and the rest bunked with the ones who lived locally.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Google says crumpets are like a hard pancake. In the picture, it looks like an English muffin. While I can stand to eat either of those, I wouldn't choose them. In fact, they'd be pretty far down on my list. Clotted cream sounds very much like butter. I don't like butter and only use it in baking and cooking. I can stand to eat scones but wonder why anyone would. They're hard, dry and mostly tasteless. I'd much prefer a donut, a cinnamon roll or a muffin. And from what wiki says about Vegemite, salty, bitter and malty??? I'm glad you like it but that doesn't sound like anything I could keep in my mouth.


Some things are an acquired taste. Vegemite and I are not good friends. Crumpets aren't hard. They're bready, like English muffins but with more holes so more goodies can fit in. At Pike Street Market in Seattle, which is both a tourist attraction and a great place to shop, there's a place that makes crumpets while you watch. They're pretty darn good hot off the griddle.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think the British will eat anything. I'm sure I'd starve to death over there.


But what about Cornish pasties, bangers & mash, scotch eggs, fish & chips where the chips are done very nice and crispy? Well, I could go on, but I'm not trying to convert anyone. Give me some Yorkshire Pudding with my roast beef and I'm a happy camper.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> You must be the thick headed one to not 'get' that I don't lie, I am not thick headed (smart but not dense) and not rigid, just in not parsing words or be wishy washy about my core beliefs. Maybe if you bang your head against your Obama poster more often, you will break up some concrete and understand that just because you boringly bring something up over and over again does not make it true or even interesting.


Sweetie, you didn't *lie* to me about my opinion of Joey's avatar. You *disagreed* with me. Your opinion is different than mine. The word "different" neither means good nor bad. And there are as many different opinions as there are people in the world.

And I'm not going to be so silly as to remark on any of your other posts here. Someone else can do that, and probably enjoy if more than me.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> But what about Cornish pasties, bangers & mash, scotch eggs, fish & chips where the chips are done very nice and crispy? Well, I could go on, but I'm not trying to convert anyone. Give me some Yorkshire Pudding with my roast beef and I'm a happy camper.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: second helping please miss, and can you bung in some mushy peas with those chips.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> You must be the thick headed one to not 'get' that I don't lie, I am not thick headed (smart but not dense) and not rigid, just believe in not parsing words or be wishy washy about my core beliefs. Maybe if you bang your head against your Obama poster more often, you will break up some concrete and understand that just because you boringly bring something up over and over again does not make it true or even interesting.


A thought for you.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> A thought for you.


EveeeeM the Computer Whiz Hippie always finds such good whatever it is called.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> EveeeeM the Computer Whiz Hippie always finds such good whatever it is called.


The thanks is due to Scottish Lass, she always comes up with something that is appropriate. This is one of hers. I never miss her posts. So :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: to Scottish Lass.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Actually the menu looks rather ordinary.
> 
> http://www.teaandsympathy.com/#!restaurant/cgej


Looks pretty expensive but I'll assume that's because it's in NYC. I confess I've never been to NYC but and getting a craving to do so from reading all the posts here.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Puddings have custard poured over them before they are eaten. Puddings are generally boiled, in a cloth, or steamed. They can also be baked, similar to a cake.
> 
> Custard is made with custard powder and milk on the stove top, and you can also have a baked custard, made with eggs and milk, and vanilla essence and cooked in a bain maire, or dish of water, in the oven.  The bain maire or dish of water keeps the temperature lower and allows the custard to cook slower and set properly.


And never forget when making a baked custard to scald the milk!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Grab your coat and grab your hat and buy a ticket for mid-January when we are trying to put together a get-together. Brat might come. PM her and share a hotel or an AirB&B.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> EveeeeM the Computer Whiz Hippie always finds such good whatever it is called.


Another good one from Scottish Lass. We could use it to send to those we think need it, I am sure SL would not mind.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> We used to say "Molasses is the thickest and darkest and least purified, followed by treacle, then golden syrup.
> 
> Molasses, or black treacle, is a viscous by-product of the refining of sugarcane or sugar beets into sugar. The word comes from the Portuguese melaço, ultimately derived from mel, the Portuguese and Latin word for "honey". Wikipedia
> 
> ...


Molasses is necessary for human life to survive. Without it there would be no ginger bread.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Another good one from Scottish Lass. We could use it to send to those we think need it, I am sure SL would not mind.


some of those hard-asses wouldn't even notice.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

First snow in two years and it's beautiful!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Like you PP, I'll be spending New Years Eve knitting (tonight). Son is away at a music festival so it's nice and quiet.
> 
> Hope you and all of the Ladies and loved ones have a very Happy New Year and I also hope there is more peace than not in the world for 2015.


It's already January 1 where you are, isn't it. I hope you had a peaceful evening (which is a strange thing to wish someone for New Year's Eve, now that I think of it). My baby sweater is about done, except that I found two holes in it. My first thought was moths. But then I found the ball band for the torn yarn, and it's 50% nylon and 50% acrylic. I don't know how it tore, but it wasn't moths. Or maybe it was GMO moths.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Ah yes, but any excuse to get back to NYC and to meet all of the ladies! Plus, it wouldn't be all about British cuisine and yarn, not in NYC!


Okay, then what are you waiting for?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Sweetie, you didn't *lie* to me about my opinion of Joey's avatar. You *disagreed* with me. Your opinion is different than mine. The word "different" neither means good nor bad. And there are as many different opinions as there are people in the world.
> 
> And I'm not going to be so silly as to remark on any of your other posts here. Someone else can do that, and probably enjoy if more than me.


Sorry, Maid, but you're not entitled to an opinion on that poor cat's picture. It would be cruel of you not to like what joey has wrought - or at least that's how "sweetie" sounds. The same way she sounds when talking about how hurt those poor women were at seeing anti-Republican cartoons.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> A thought for you.


This is wonderful, though LTL does claim to be perfect ("I don't lie").


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Molasses is necessary for human life to survive. Without it there would be no ginger bread.


 :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Another good one from Scottish Lass. We could use it to send to those we think need it, I am sure SL would not mind.


omigod, this one is unbelievable. I'm going to have to start reading SL's stuff again. I'm also going to download the picture.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> some of those hard-asses wouldn't even notice.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> First snow in two years and it's beautiful!


It is beautiful. Is this spot near your home?

The forecast here for the next few days is Sunny, even though temps are in the 30s to low 40.

Bah!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> It is beautiful. Is this spot near your home?
> 
> The forecast here for the next few days is Sunny, even though temps are in the 30s to low 40.
> 
> Bah!


Yes, it's across the street and down a couple of houses where we have a little urban lake and park. We now have about 6" on the ground and it's still coming down. We may have 12" by tomorrow. It's absolutely beautiful and so quiet. Lovin' it.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Happy new year to all who read this. I'm on the settee drinking port and eating chocolate finger biscuits this evening, while everyone else is out at various licensed premises. I find I don't miss the NYE pub madness as much as I thought I would. Damn that old age.

And, to attempt to put an end to the British food is horrible debate, trust me, it's not. I've tried American cheese. Puddings can contain eggs and Cornwall is part of England. I was merely making a joke that Cornwall often regards itself as separate from the rest of England because it's at the end of the island and has an old Celtic culture. Right, I'm going to try not talk about any of this until next year.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

aw9358 said:


> Happy new year to all who read this. I'm on the settee drinking port and eating chocolate finger biscuits this evening, while everyone else is out at various licensed premises. I find I don't miss the NYE pub madness as much as I thought I would. Damn that old age.
> 
> And, to attempt to put an end to the British food is horrible debate, trust me, it's not. I've tried American cheese. Puddings can contain eggs and Cornwall is part of England. I was merely making a joke that Cornwall often regards itself as separate from the rest of England because it's at the end of the island and has an old Celtic culture. Right, I'm going to try not talk about any of this until next year.


American cheese isn't cheese. It's a processed dairy product! Bleah. Snowing here so I can't go out to get port - sounds divine. I guess I'll have to make do with a bottle of Zin or perhaps hot coffee with Kahlua.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

DGreen said:


> American cheese isn't cheese. It's a processed dairy product! Bleah. Snowing here so I can't go out to get port - sounds divine. I guess I'll have to make do with a bottle of Zin or perhaps hot coffee with Kahlua.


Ah, Kahlua. Now I have envy.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

I've just been in my garden watching the most incredible fireworks. It's 2015 here - let's hope it's a better one. Love to all.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think you have identified the source of dispute. Shades of meaning.



MaidInBedlam said:


> Sweetie, you didn't *lie* to me about my opinion of Joey's avatar. You *disagreed* with me. Your opinion is different than mine. The word "different" neither means good nor bad. And there are as many different opinions as there are people in the world.
> 
> And I'm not going to be so silly as to remark on any of your other posts here. Someone else can do that, and probably enjoy if more than me.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

damemary said:


> I think you have identified the source of dispute. Shades of meaning.


True. The COWS color any disagreement with their views as "lies."


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> American cheese isn't cheese. It's a processed dairy product! Bleah. Snowing here so I can't go out to get port - sounds divine. I guess I'll have to make do with a bottle of Zin or perhaps hot coffee with Kahlua.


My eldest son told me that American cheddar cheese is orange in colour and is squeezed out of a tube. Is this true? He said that Americans also love our Browne's Cheddar cheese, which is one of our cheapest cheeses over here in Western Australia. It is the cheese mum grabs when she does the shopping because it is the cheapest. Do you not have Stilton, Danish Blue Vein, Camembert, goat's milk cheese, cheese made from sheep or camel milk and so many other different cheeses in your fridge just for everyday consumption. Yes, we are big cheese eaters in our family and have different varieties in the fridge. No, I have not tried the cheese made from camel milk, it is only available from selected outlets and is very expensive. Just wondering, and not meant to stir up trouble here.

I just noticed the time, I think it is still last night over there in the USA, you have not had your New Year's celebrations yet. So, I wish you all A Happy New Year, which should be in 2 hours and 35 minutes time from now. Sorry my calculations are a bit out, I noticed the post time 21:22:53 it is 10.26 am according to my computer.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> My eldest son told me that American cheddar cheese is orange in colour and is squeezed out of a tube. Is this true? He said that Americans also love our Browne's Cheddar cheese, which is one of our cheapest cheeses over here in Western Australia. It is the cheese mum grabs when she does the shopping because it is the cheapest. Do you not have Stilton, Danish Blue Vein, Camembert, goat's milk cheese, cheese made from sheep or camel milk and so many other different cheeses in your fridge just for everyday consumption. Yes, we are big cheese eaters in our family and have different varieties in the fridge. No, I have not tried the cheese made from camel milk, it is only available from selected outlets and is very expensive. Just wondering, and not meant to stir up trouble here.
> 
> I just noticed the time, I think it is still last night over there in the USA, you have not had your New Year's celebrations yet. So, I wish you all A Happy New Year, which should be in 1 hour and 35 minutes time from now.


Happy New Year to you, dear Eve!

I personally love all the cheeses you named. I just have to limit my consumption because I restrict my intake of saturated fats. Americans can obtain good cheeses. Unfortunately, the cheaper bulk cheddars are most often used, especially in restaurant food. We Americans have an abundance of excellent foodstuffs. We just don't always choose to eat them.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

byobb



DGreen said:


> True. The COWS color any disagreement with their views as "lies."


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Eve, Velveeta is a processed, squishy cheese familiar here. We also have various varieties in aerosol cans. Fine cheeses from sheep and goats are coming into their own. Americans need more educated palates. Our groceries are amazing. Almost every store has a selection of fine domestic and imported cheeses, but they are more expensive than the ordinary stuff.

Here in AZ USA it's only 8:40 PM so New Year's is still hours away. They routinely celebrate at 10:00 PM to coincide with East Coast celebration. My eyes are drooping so I may not last.

I do wish all at KP a very Happy and Prosperous New Year.



EveMCooke said:


> My eldest son told me that American cheddar cheese is orange in colour and is squeezed out of a tube. Is this true? He said that Americans also love our Browne's Cheddar cheese, which is one of our cheapest cheeses over here in Western Australia. It is the cheese mum grabs when she does the shopping because it is the cheapest. Do you not have Stilton, Danish Blue Vein, Camembert, goat's milk cheese, cheese made from sheep or camel milk and so many other different cheeses in your fridge just for everyday consumption. Yes, we are big cheese eaters in our family and have different varieties in the fridge. No, I have not tried the cheese made from camel milk, it is only available from selected outlets and is very expensive. Just wondering, and not meant to stir up trouble here.
> 
> I just noticed the time, I think it is still last night over there in the USA, you have not had your New Year's celebrations yet. So, I wish you all A Happy New Year, which should be in 2 hours and 35 minutes time from now. Sorry my calculations are a bit out, I noticed the post time 21:22:53 it is 10.26 am according to my computer.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

I do apologise for my overly friendly wishes earlier. I'm afraid Dr Smirnoff had done his work. What I meant to say was have a fairly pleasant new year.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

To all my friends here, whatever section of the US you're in or whatever continent you're on, a very happy New Year to you and your loved ones, and plenty of


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> Eve, Velveeta is a processed, squishy cheese familiar here. We also have various varieties in aerosol cans. Fine cheeses from sheep and goats are coming into their own. Americans need more educated palates. Our groceries are amazing. Almost every store has a selection of fine domestic and imported cheeses, but they are more expensive than the ordinary stuff.
> 
> Here in AZ USA it's only 8:40 PM so New Year's is still hours away. They routinely celebrate at 10:00 PM to coincide with East Coast celebration. My eyes are drooping so I may not last.
> 
> I do wish all at KP a very Happy and Prosperous New Year.


I remember Velveeta cheese from when I was a child. We had the usual variety of cheeses you purchased by the slice from the deli, and then Kraft Cheddar and Kraft Velveeta which you purchased from the grocer. The Kraft products did not have to be refrigerated until opened, they came in a cardboard box and were wrapped in foil. They did not really taste like cheese though. Then in the mid 50s the Velveeta disappeared from the shelves, I do not know why. Cheese in aerosol cans is stretching my imagination, spray on cheese? I thought those individually wrapped cheese slices was going far enough. Plastic cheese some of us call these cheese slices. Cheese in an aerosol can??? :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

American Cheese is a cheap, processed form of Cheddar. I personally hate it, but many love it. These days many cheeses are available through specialty stores, but when I was growing up only a few were: Cheddar (mild and sharp), American, Swiss, Gouda, Jack, smoked Cheddar, Mozzarella & Parmesan (for cooking) and Bleu Cheese (Roquefort) (for salads). Brie and Limburger could be found if you looked hard.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

One British food I can't stand is mushy peas. The two time I visited the UK it seemed to be served with every meal at restaurants. It was like it was the national vegetable or something. Basically it was peas cooked to major softness and then mushed up into a green mass. Blech!


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> American Cheese is a cheap, processed form of Cheddar. I personally hate it, but many love it. These days many cheeses are available through specialty stores, but when I was growing up only a few were: Cheddar (mild and sharp), American, Swiss, Gouda, Jack, smoked Cheddar, Mozzarella & Parmesan (for cooking) and Bleu Cheese (Roquefort) (for salads). Brie and Limburger could be found if you looked hard.


We have a huge variety of cheeses available in the Supermarket. The problem lies with obtaining the different brands, Coles and Woolworth are pushing their own brands and do not have certain brands available any more. I love Mainland cheese but Coles no longer stocks it, apart from one or two specialty varieties. It is the same with Stilton, a lot of Coles branches do not stock it. True Stilton can only be made by UK cheese manufacturers.

Facts and Figures

There are just 6 dairies in the world licensed to make Blue Stilton cheese
Stilton is a "protected name" cheese and by law can only be made in the three counties of Derbyshire, Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire
It takes 136 pints milk (78 litres) to make one 17 lb (8kg) Stilton cheese
Stilton takes its name from the village of the same name in Cambridgeshire where a pressed, cooked, cream cheese of that name was first made and sold. We are still unclear how it evolved into a semi hard unpressed blue vein cheese but our History of Stilton section sheds some light on its evolution 
http://www.stiltoncheese.co.uk/stilton_facts


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

They even have different 'flavors' such as Swiss, pimento, cheddar. I'm just warning you because I like you. Avoid at all costs.



EveMCooke said:


> I remember Velveeta cheese from when I was a child. We had the usual variety of cheeses you purchased by the slice from the deli, and then Kraft Cheddar and Kraft Velveeta which you purchased from the grocer. The Kraft products did not have to be refrigerated until opened, they came in a cardboard box and were wrapped in foil. They did not really taste like cheese though. Then in the mid 50s the Velveeta disappeared from the shelves, I do not know why. Cheese in aerosol cans is stretching my imagination, spray on cheese? I thought those individually wrapped cheese slices was going far enough. Plastic cheese some of us call these cheese slices. Cheese in an aerosol can??? :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> They even have different 'flavors' such as Swiss, pimento, cheddar. I'm just warning you because I like you. Avoid at all costs.


I just did a quick net crawl and came up with the following comments that Aussies had posted on the net.

Originally Posted by caspian 
but aerosol cheese just makes me feel 
Ditto... I don't know how they get away with calling it cheese, it should be called 'vaugely cheese flavoured muck'
Originally Posted by Icebeacon 
Agreed, I bought a can once, would have been 24 months ago from woolies. The brand was called cheezam, the woolies was in the Macquarie centre. Don't know if they still stock it, one can was all I needed 
That's the name! I went to Woolies last night and didn't see it on the shelf anymore. Maybe that's because I don't think anyone ever bought it.

Its like cream cheese (cheddar type) that comes out of a pressurised can so it looks like mustard.

Actually it kind of looks pretty much like mustard, but the consistency of plastic wrapped cheese
yes, I realise the full horror of the situation. it's cheese done in a similar manner to aerosol cream.

it's still a revolting concept.

there are simply somethings that are not meant to be delivered in such a manner. theoretically you could do aerosol ham, for instance.

just because you can do things doesn't mean you should.
__________________
Originally Posted by Bastard Child 
because it tastes just how you'd imagine American cheese would taste 
i.e. absolutely shite.

Originally Posted by Revenge 
Rather than pay the premium for the aerosol cans of oil, you can buy a pump pack thingy (like this) that lets you refill.

Never heard of this crazy cheese, doesn't sound all that appetising, but this 
'pump pack thingy' looks awesome. might have to get me one of those.

http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?s=a33e1b5e661170e036bf465d0436de1e&t=880822&page=2

Plus the following little gem from the same website

The Prime Minister of Australia: "no one can be the suppository of all wisdom''
abbott on the NBN: "We're not against using the internet, errr, for all these things, ah but do we really want to invest $50billion dollars of hard earned tax payers money on what is essentially a video entertainment system."

I remember him saying "no one can be the suppository of all wisdom''    And he is our Prime Minister. :? :? :-( :-(


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## Farmwoman (Jul 2, 2014)

EveMCook- What's foremost in my memory are the pictures and videos of American workers, serving to help the Iraci people, with a monster standing behind them, who then severs their heads.
To hell with torture- this is WAR and MURDER!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I remember Velveeta cheese from when I was a child. We had the usual variety of cheeses you purchased by the slice from the deli, and then Kraft Cheddar and Kraft Velveeta which you purchased from the grocer. The Kraft products did not have to be refrigerated until opened, they came in a cardboard box and were wrapped in foil. They did not really taste like cheese though. Then in the mid 50s the Velveeta disappeared from the shelves, I do not know why. Cheese in aerosol cans is stretching my imagination, spray on cheese? I thought those individually wrapped cheese slices was going far enough. Plastic cheese some of us call these cheese slices. Cheese in an aerosol can??? :roll: :roll: :roll:


I hate Velveeta and always think of it as plastic rather than cheese.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> Eve, Velveeta is a processed, squishy cheese familiar here. We also have various varieties in aerosol cans. Fine cheeses from sheep and goats are coming into their own. Americans need more educated palates. Our groceries are amazing. Almost every store has a selection of fine domestic and imported cheeses, but they are more expensive than the ordinary stuff.
> 
> Here in AZ USA it's only 8:40 PM so New Year's is still hours away. They routinely celebrate at 10:00 PM to coincide with East Coast celebration. My eyes are drooping so I may not last.
> 
> I do wish all at KP a very Happy and Prosperous New Year.


I just watched a video on youtube showing Americans living in Australia how to make home made Velveeta cheese. All I can say is why? Why not just go to the deli and buy some decent cheese, every Coles and Woolies and IGA have a deli counter where you can buy so many different varieties of cheese. The refrigerator aisles are also full of different varieties of good cheeses. Why would you take cheese, add gelatine, milk powder, milk and what else, put it through the blender and set it in the fridge for several hours? :shock: :-o


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Your information is not complete. First of all Vit D is used in at least 2000, yes 2000 body functions. It is really a hormone altho not sure why it got classified as a vitamin. Probably an error made decades ago and never reclassified. There is hardly a biochemical process in the body that doesn't require Vit D. As for bones: Vit D in conjunction with Calc, Mag and Vit K2 (not K1) helps keep the calcium where it belongs in the body.
> 1000 IU/daily is a very low dosage. If you want to know what your body is doing then have the 25 OH-D hydroxy blood test taken. Not sure of the regs in Au but some States here allow home tests and some do not. Unfortunately NY is one of the few states that don't allow home testing.
> 
> The Vit D Council is well known for its extensive information on Vit D. You can access it here:
> ...


Vitamin D3 is routinely screened through a blood biochemistry test in Australia. Approximately 15 years ago, elderly aged care residential recipients were found to have alarmingly low levels of Vitamin D3, due to lack of sun exposure. Doctors then decided to start screening their other community patients whom for most, vitamin D3 was low. It was found that a daily dose of 1000 i.u. of vitamin D3 was the therapeutic dose for maintaining a healthy blood serum level. The healthy range is between 50 nmol/L and 120 nmol/L of blood in Australia.

My level was so low, my Doc jokingly said it wasn't compatible with life! :shock: It was 12 nmol/L. Anyway, he had me taking 3000 i.u. per day for three months and then 1000 i.u. per day for good. I am too fair for sun exposure. The sun cannot synthesise vitamin D3 in the body when sun creams are used and I can't go out in the sun without it.

My Doc has told me anymore than 1000 i.u. vitamin D3 per day is not necessary. He has not discussed with me the other actions of vitamin D3 in the body so your links have been quite enlightening and thank you.

This is one place I've researched on the subject of Vit D3:

http://www.osteoporosis.org.au/vitamin-d


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> But what about Cornish pasties, bangers & mash, scotch eggs, fish & chips where the chips are done very nice and crispy? Well, I could go on, but I'm not trying to convert anyone. Give me some Yorkshire Pudding with my roast beef and I'm a happy camper.


Drool...Mmmm!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: second helping please miss, and can you bung in some mushy peas with those chips.


What's that dish? It's a pork pie surrounded by mushy peas. Can't recall it's name. I love those canned, mint mushy peas (I used to get them at Coles under the 'Farmland' name but I can't find them any more).

Just googled pork pie and mushy peas and it's a traditional dish from the north of England, sometimes called a 'Pie Floater.' Isn't that fabulous?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Looks pretty expensive but I'll assume that's because it's in NYC. I confess I've never been to NYC but and getting a craving to do so from reading all the posts here.


I've been several times and I yearn to go back. Perhaps I could sync a visit with another KP gathering later on. Maid, you must get there at some stage. It's magical!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It's already January 1 where you are, isn't it. I hope you had a peaceful evening (which is a strange thing to wish someone for New Year's Eve, now that I think of it). My baby sweater is about done, except that I found two holes in it. My first thought was moths. But then I found the ball band for the torn yarn, and it's 50% nylon and 50% acrylic. I don't know how it tore, but it wasn't moths. Or maybe it was GMO moths.


I did have a peaceful evening thank you PP. When it struck midnight the area around me exploded with fireworks, fire crackers, music and various human yelps and continued until 0215 in the morning! I wasn't concerned because I was so into the knitting I didn't notice the time.

Just watched the Ball drop in Times Square prior to writing this post. Wonderful as usual. I expected to see swathes of snow but it wasn't to be, only zero temperatures and a lot of mouth steam!

About the holes in the baby sweater. Tears you say? The yarn would be extra strong being nylon and acrylic to be torn I would think. Were you able to repair it?

Genetically modified moths would have the ability to tear anything. Even body bags G-d forbid! Must keep my wallet closed...


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Okay, then what are you waiting for?


I would love to go to NYC right now, I really would but it isn't a good time. I'm not looking for work at the moment but will step this up after some surgery I'm having in the first part of 2015. So, have to be careful money wise. I have decided to do one more OS trip and only have 2 destinations; NYC and Florence. Pending yours and SQM's consent, I hope to catch up with you both when I get there.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> Happy new year to all who read this. I'm on the settee drinking port and eating chocolate finger biscuits this evening, while everyone else is out at various licensed premises. I find I don't miss the NYE pub madness as much as I thought I would. Damn that old age.
> 
> And, to attempt to put an end to the British food is horrible debate, trust me, it's not. I've tried American cheese. Puddings can contain eggs and Cornwall is part of England. I was merely making a joke that Cornwall often regards itself as separate from the rest of England because it's at the end of the island and has an old Celtic culture. Right, I'm going to try not talk about any of this until next year.


No aw! Nebraska is the only one debating! I love British AND Irish food dearly. Scottish food as well and so does Eve. We Australians grew up with mostly British fare and I plan to emulate my mother who was a whizz at all of those cuisines as well as Polish cuisine.

Happy New Years to you! Hope you're enjoying the port and choc bics. Delightful combination!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> American cheese isn't cheese. It's a processed dairy product! Bleah. Snowing here so I can't go out to get port - sounds divine. I guess I'll have to make do with a bottle of Zin or perhaps hot coffee with Kahlua.


That picture is so wistful and lovely Green. What's Zin? Coffee and Kahlua I'm intimately acquainted with so there's no question about that!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> byobb


 :XD: :XD: :XD: absolutely!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> I do apologise for my overly friendly wishes earlier. I'm afraid Dr Smirnoff had done his work. What I meant to say was have a fairly pleasant new year.


What??? Your wishes weren't overly friendly and even if they were, all the more satisfying for us! Your wishes were perfect for New Years Eve and thank you for them aw!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> To all my friends here, whatever section of the US you're in or whatever continent you're on, a very happy New Year to you and your loved ones, and plenty of


 :XD: Very cute!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I remember Velveeta cheese from when I was a child. We had the usual variety of cheeses you purchased by the slice from the deli, and then Kraft Cheddar and Kraft Velveeta which you purchased from the grocer. The Kraft products did not have to be refrigerated until opened, they came in a cardboard box and were wrapped in foil. They did not really taste like cheese though. Then in the mid 50s the Velveeta disappeared from the shelves, I do not know why. Cheese in aerosol cans is stretching my imagination, spray on cheese? I thought those individually wrapped cheese slices was going far enough. Plastic cheese some of us call these cheese slices. Cheese in an aerosol can??? :roll: :roll: :roll:


Kraft cheese in the cardboard box, wrapped in foil is the best cheese to use for pasta bakes! Delicious, creamy with just a hint of salt to save having to season with extra salt. My mother used to give us chunks of it in school lunches. Love it!

The canned cheese is not bad either. Like the canned cream, directly squeezing it into one's mouth is pure bliss!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I just watched a video on youtube showing Americans living in Australia how to make home made Velveeta cheese. All I can say is why? Why not just go to the deli and buy some decent cheese, every Coles and Woolies and IGA have a deli counter where you can buy so many different varieties of cheese. The refrigerator aisles are also full of different varieties of good cheeses. Why would you take cheese, add gelatine, milk powder, milk and what else, put it through the blender and set it in the fridge for several hours? :shock: :-o


A fair question, and I will attempt a reply. Americans of a certain age grew up with the belief that everything faster, more convenient, more modern was an improvement. (For example my Mom's family were thrilled with canned vegetables after having grown and canned their own.) It must get to be a habit. Of course a 'new' generation came along and believed that 'back to natural' was the only way to go.

Myself, I'm just contrary enough to test and choose what I prefer. And I prefer cheese that looks like cheese and not canned plastic. I trust from the replies that Aussies are firmly supporting me.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Farmwoman said:


> EveMCook- What's foremost in my memory are the pictures and videos of American workers, serving to help the Iraci people, with a monster standing behind them, who then severs their heads.
> To hell with torture- this is WAR and MURDER!


 Yes war and murder are definitely not nice and should be avoided, but that does not mean that one group of people can torture another group of people in retaliation.

Question: Who are the Iraci people you refer to in your posting? I have not heard of the Iraci people.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Vitamin D3 is routinely screened through a blood biochemistry test in Australia. Approximately 15 years ago, elderly aged care residential recipients were found to have alarmingly low levels of Vitamin D3, due to lack of sun exposure. Doctors then decided to start screening their other community patients whom for most, vitamin D3 was low. It was found that a daily dose of 1000 i.u. of vitamin D3 was the therapeutic dose for maintaining a healthy blood serum level. The healthy range is between 50 nmol/L and 120 nmol/L of blood in Australia.
> 
> My level was so low, my Doc jokingly said it wasn't compatible with life! :shock: It was 12 nmol/L. Anyway, he had me taking 3000 i.u. per day for three months and then 1000 i.u. per day for good. I am too fair for sun exposure. The sun cannot synthesise vitamin D3 in the body when sun creams are used and I can't go out in the sun without it.
> 
> ...


In the US it has been shown that 85% of white people are significantly deficient in Vit D. People with darker skins have even worse stats. Sunscreen blocks out the rays that help form Vit D in the body but allow the ones that cause cancer to penetrate. Talk about a sinister industry!!!!

Mercola once wrote that adequate Vit D will help prevent sunburn. My one case testing this is my daughter who would get a terrible case of sunburn every year despite her darker skin. When she went to Haiti a few yrs ago where the sun is extremely strong and closer to the equator than NYS, I had her take 5000 iu/daily for a month before her trip. No sunburn!!

If 1000 iu/daily got your blood levels up to 50 that is very good. You must have very good nutrition and low levels of inflammation in your system.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> A fair question, and I will attempt a reply. Americans of a certain age grew up with the belief that everything faster, more convenient, more modern was an improvement. (For example my Mom's family were thrilled with canned vegetables after having grown and canned their own.) It must get to be a habit. Of course a 'new' generation came along and believed that 'back to natural' was the only way to go.
> 
> Myself, I'm just contrary enough to test and choose what I prefer. And I prefer cheese that looks like cheese and not canned plastic. I trust from the replies that Aussies are firmly supporting me.


You have my support and the support of other Aussies who commented in online chat sites about canned and spray on cheese. Your comments about canned vegetables had me pulling a face. I remember tinned peas and tinned corn and they were revolting. The only thing they were good for, apart from feeding to the chooks, was as an emergency addition to a stock pot when making soup.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Just catching up on the past several pages. Last nite I stretched out about 7 pm and that was it for me. Thinking about my workshop in 3 weeks here on KP (yes I am doing one--hope some of you join in) and simply zoned out till about 3 a.m. Law and Order is doing one of their marathon runs on TV so picked up where I left off last nite.

Funny food discussion on cheese. Takes me back. Remember the advent of Velveeta and the bags of margarine. They came in, as memory serves, about the time TVs became accessible to the working public in the 1950's. All that saved money from returning soldiers and military installations converting to consumer goods. Mass marketing on TV telling the housewife about the benefits of new appliances and plastic foods. TV dinners allowed the working mother to feed her family easily. We all got suckered into the new consumerism. S&H blue stamps and other such gimmicks allowed the working class person to have access to lots of glittery things. My mother saved books of these stamps and had a kitchen filled with chrome plated appliances. And the food became more packaged and artificial. Such was considered progress. Today we realize for who that was.

Thank goodness for the rebellion against the repression of the McCarthy years and part of that was a move back to nature and humane learning. But cheap cheese was here to stay. In poorer neighborhoods that is all you could buy--and still is true today. Barely any fresh fruit or vegetable and lots of canned goods and fake cheese and bacteria slimed meat to make it look fresh.

Locally, there are cheese counters in all the big supermarkets upstate. But I wouldn't buy most of it. It is all pasteurized cheese from CAFO raised cows fed GMO feed. I used to buy this Jarlsburg imported cheese but even this has changed, or maybe my tastes have been reconditioned to demand something more real. Fortunately, there are a number of cheeses from grass fed animals, and some that are truly organic in my region. We have some small operations that make their own cheese. My neighbor organic farm brings milk to this man who makes provolone cheese. So now I buy it from the farmer instead of the cheese maker himself. Price has just about doubled this way and my cheese buying has been cut by 60% for this cheese but it is solo good and has become a real treat. A woman who raises the cutest goats behind her little raised ranch house makes goat cheese and I try to get all my Feta from her and sometimes the most delicious goat yogurt. It is possible to get organic, raw milk cheese from Amish farmers who have a thriving business distributing their products--mainly cheddar and baby swiss available.

Other cheeses are hard to come if you want organic, grass fed raw milk product which is what I eat.

NYC, tho, had a shop that was only cheese. It was called Zabar's on the upper West Side. It was really an experience to go there. City folk--does that store still exist? If so, have they paid attention to the growing demand for raw milk cheeses?

Whole Foods Market in Boston has a very large cheese section with a few selections of raw milk cheeses and some others that are listed as organic but not raw milk. They do have cheeses form many countries.

So there is a growing interest in cheeses in the US of better quality. But Velveeta and American cheese really are plastic products. The fact that many people actually think this is what cheese is about just shows how easy it is to lead the public around by its nose, even conditioning people's taste buds.

And canned foods, the joy of the housewife returning to work (1950-60's) has proven to be another toxic, nutrient deficient way of selling garbage and ruining health. BPA in cans has proven noxious but there are other leaches from cans that are even worse. BPA is even on store receipts which people can absorb thru their skin--you know those shiny paper receipts that every store hands you as you pay? Estrogenic and carcinogenic goodies to pollute our body and our environment. And canned peas was the most vomititious food ever created. And I loved raw peas; still do. Okay. Enough of my rant down memory lane.

Hoping for a Healthier and Happier New Years for everyone

I


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

I am resisting sending out a political article given the lighter conversation ongoing. So let me know when people want to get into politics again.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> That picture is so wistful and lovely Green. What's Zin? Coffee and Kahlua I'm intimately acquainted with so there's no question about that!


Zinfandel is a variety of full-bodied red wine. I do love good red wine!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

damemary said:


> A fair question, and I will attempt a reply. Americans of a certain age grew up with the belief that everything faster, more convenient, more modern was an improvement. (For example my Mom's family were thrilled with canned vegetables after having grown and canned their own.) It must get to be a habit. Of course a 'new' generation came along and believed that 'back to natural' was the only way to go.
> 
> Myself, I'm just contrary enough to test and choose what I prefer. And I prefer cheese that looks like cheese and not canned plastic. I trust from the replies that Aussies are firmly supporting me.


I think there is also a "comfort food" factor. We all retain a fondness for some foods we enjoyed as children. Aussies have their vegemite, don't they? I can't gag that stuff down!

Yesterday I made a nice pot of chicken with dumplings - comfort food and perfect for a snowy day. Making ones own mock velveeta could be a way to get an old familiar taste associated with mac and cheese.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

DGreen--your winter photo is beautiful. And so true, snow is a very quiet event when it is happening Not always good to clear up but on a sunny day after a storm it has a very special beauty and calm feeling.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

tamarque said:


> DGreen--your winter photo is beautiful. And so true, snow is a very quiet event when it is happening Not always good to clear up but on a sunny day after a storm it has a very special beauty and calm feeling.


Thanks, I'm glad you like it. The sun will be rising soon here and I'm heading out to take advantage of the morning light and untouched snow. It's pretty darn cold this morning and we are forecast for more snow on top of the 12' we got yesterday. This opportunity is rare here in Arizona. Just hope it doesn't start snowing again before I get back indoors!


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Thanks, I'm glad you like it. The sun will be rising soon here and I'm heading out to take advantage of the morning light and untouched snow. It's pretty darn cold this morning and we are forecast for more snow on top of the 12' we got yesterday. This opportunity is rare here in Arizona. Just hope it doesn't start snowing again before I get back indoors!


You must be at a pretty high elevation with all those evergreen trees. I recall that region as having tall cactus fields that are really the remains of the forests at lower, dessert levels.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I remember Velveeta cheese from when I was a child. We had the usual variety of cheeses you purchased by the slice from the deli, and then Kraft Cheddar and Kraft Velveeta which you purchased from the grocer. The Kraft products did not have to be refrigerated until opened, they came in a cardboard box and were wrapped in foil. They did not really taste like cheese though. Then in the mid 50s the Velveeta disappeared from the shelves, I do not know why. Cheese in aerosol cans is stretching my imagination, spray on cheese? I thought those individually wrapped cheese slices was going far enough. Plastic cheese some of us call these cheese slices. Cheese in an aerosol can??? :roll: :roll: :roll:


IMO, Velveeta, plastic wrapped slices and aerosolized "cheese" aren't really cheese. They're just cheese flavored chemicals. I try to avoid the stuff. However, the plastic wrapped slices come in handy when grilling cheeseburgers. :XD: I like the fake swiss.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> One British food I can't stand is mushy peas. The two time I visited the UK it seemed to be served with every meal at restaurants. It was like it was the national vegetable or something. Basically it was peas cooked to major softness and then mushed up into a green mass. Blech!


I too, hate those little mushy peas. I like the big firm peas, fresh or frozen. The only canned vegetable I like is green beans. I know they're bad for me, but I like them.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> No aw! Nebraska is the only one debating! I love British AND Irish food dearly. Scottish food as well and so does Eve. We Australians grew up with mostly British fare and I plan to emulate my mother who was a whizz at all of those cuisines as well as Polish cuisine.
> 
> Happy New Years to you! Hope you're enjoying the port and choc bics. Delightful combination!


To be fair, I don't like a lot of things. I'm a supertaster, otherwise known as a picky eater. Many things, including most cheeses and wines, have a very strong bitter taste. I can't stand the taste of fat and if I eat fried foods, all I can taste is the oil they were fried in. The only fish I can stand are the mild white fish like cod? The others gag me. Went to a Bar Mitzvah once where they served salmon. That first bite just would not stay in my mouth. Good thing I had a napkin. People look down on picky eaters, as if it were a choice. It's not! I'd love to be able to eat more things, I just can't. As I age, I'm finding that I can eat more things though. Maybe some of those taste buds are dying out. I hope so.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

tamarque said:


> You must be at a pretty high elevation with all those evergreen trees. I recall that region as having tall cactus fields that are really the remains of the forests at lower, dessert levels.


We are at 5,000 feet. Arizona has lots of mountains - and deserts. It's a beautiful place to live! Attached is a photo taken about 20 miles from here to give you an idea of where I live. If I drive 50 miles south, I'm in the cactus forests you mention. That's the second photo.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Zinfandel is a variety of full-bodied red wine. I do love good red wine!


Actually, Zins come in light bodied, medium bodied and full bodied versions. I like the light bodied ones, especially Beringer's White Zinfandel. My favorite, a light fruity flavor. I also love the fruity Sangria that Outback serves. Alas, I haven't had anything to drink since last summer. I was getting frequent migraines. While sometimes I got them when I hadn't been drinking, I did get one EVERY time I drank. So, now I'm afraid to drink. I miss it! Last night, I had a half can of Pepsi in a wine glass and then switched to water in my wine glass. The wine glass really helped.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Thanks, I'm glad you like it. The sun will be rising soon here and I'm heading out to take advantage of the morning light and untouched snow. It's pretty darn cold this morning and we are forecast for more snow on top of the 12' we got yesterday. This opportunity is rare here in Arizona. Just hope it doesn't start snowing again before I get back indoors!


We got about a half inch, a few days ago. We've had almost no snow this winter, just rain. I always hope for snow. I love it (until it gets all dirty and grungy).


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

KFN--I couldn't drink wine for many years as it, suffice it to say, did not feel good. When I lost my taste for beer, I began to want wine again. This time I went for wines that had less chemicals in them; i.e., organic ones or those from sustainable grown grapes and no added sulfites. No more discomfort in any way and that has held for the past almost 20 yrs. I can say that the change from beer came from a homeopathic remedy i had been on. There was a rebalancing of my system and my body told me what was better for me.

I do think our body speaks to us and we need to listen. But that works best when we detox from all the processed and chemicalized foods. Chemicalized foods, HFCS foods, MSG & aspartame, etc really corrupts our bodies and they then reflect the results of this in our tastes. I found years ago that if you stop eating a particular food for about 2-4 weeks and then try it again, your body reacts pretty quickly letting you know if this is good for you or not. And this is still true even if still in a general toxic state. But bottom line, our tastes can/do change over the years for a number of reasons.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

DGreen said:


> We are at 5,000 feet. Arizona has lots of mountains - and deserts. It's a beautiful place to live! Attached is a photo taken about 20 miles from here to give you an idea of where I live. If I drive 50 miles south, I'm in the cactus forests you mention. That's the second photo.


Yes, really beautiful. I remember going up Lemon Mt outside Tuscon years ago and seeing sites like your photos. Was very impressed with the dramatic change of scenery from the top to bottom of the mountain. 80* temps at the bottom with the cacti forests and snow at the top with evergreens. Also love the magnificent red rock formations in that region. Had also driven thru N. Mexico from Colorado about 4-5 yrs ago when there for a course being held in a mountain top Buddhist retreat. Again loving the dramatic geographical changes. Such a beautiful country we have.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> We are at 5,000 feet. Arizona has lots of mountains - and deserts. It's a beautiful place to live! Attached is a photo taken about 20 miles from here to give you an idea of where I live. If I drive 50 miles south, I'm in the cactus forests you mention. That's the second photo.


Thanks for sharing the photos. Arizona IS beautiful! I love to visit there. It's surprising that a state can have both snowy mountains and deserts. DH and I really want to go back to Arizona with no agenda, just wander. In the past, we've always had hotel reservations, and had to move on whether we were ready or not. I'd really like to rent a motorhome and just go where the spirit moves me then stop for the night, wherever we ended up. We were going to do it last summer, then fil died. This summer, dil will be having quads and will need lots of help. Maybe next year? My soul yearns to wander.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

I will add that nature is also a great lesson in adaptation. Those cactus structures really are an ancient biological adaptation to the dessert. I don't think most people look at them and see shrunken tree structures. Like the needles are really their leaves.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> KFN--I couldn't drink wine for many years as it, suffice it to say, did not feel good. When I lost my taste for beer, I began to want wine again. This time I went for wines that had less chemicals in them; i.e., organic ones or those from sustainable grown grapes and no added sulfites. No more discomfort in any way and that has held for the past almost 20 yrs. I can say that the change from beer came from a homeopathic remedy i had been on. There was a rebalancing of my system and my body told me what was better for me.
> 
> I do think our body speaks to us and we need to listen. But that works best when we detox from all the processed and chemicalized foods. Chemicalized foods, HFCS foods, MSG & aspartame, etc really corrupts our bodies and they then reflect the results of this in our tastes. I found years ago that if you stop eating a particular food for about 2-4 weeks and then try it again, your body reacts pretty quickly letting you know if this is good for you or not. And this is still true even if still in a general toxic state. But bottom line, our tastes can/do change over the years for a number of reasons.


I've never been able to drink beer. To me, it tastes horrible. I could only drink the light fruity wines. It's never occurred to me to look for organic wines. I'd like to try them but I'm scared to death, I'd get a migraine. I'll think about it. I won't eat anything with msg or aspartame, ever! I try to avoid chemicals as much as possible, but do succumb occasionally.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Vitamin D3 is routinely screened through a blood biochemistry test in Australia. Approximately 15 years ago, elderly aged care residential recipients were found to have alarmingly low levels of Vitamin D3, due to lack of sun exposure. Doctors then decided to start screening their other community patients whom for most, vitamin D3 was low. It was found that a daily dose of 1000 i.u. of vitamin D3 was the therapeutic dose for maintaining a healthy blood serum level. The healthy range is between 50 nmol/L and 120 nmol/L of blood in Australia.
> 
> My level was so low, my Doc jokingly said it wasn't compatible with life! :shock: It was 12 nmol/L. Anyway, he had me taking 3000 i.u. per day for three months and then 1000 i.u. per day for good. I am too fair for sun exposure. The sun cannot synthesise vitamin D3 in the body when sun creams are used and I can't go out in the sun without it.
> 
> ...


You could be describing me. Happy 2015 Wonderful Wombat and to everyone who reads about cheese.

Nu? No mention of cream cheese?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Actually, Zins come in light bodied, medium bodied and full bodied versions. I like the light bodied ones, especially Beringer's White Zinfandel. My favorite, a light fruity flavor. I also love the fruity Sangria that Outback serves. Alas, I haven't had anything to drink since last summer. I was getting frequent migraines. While sometimes I got them when I hadn't been drinking, I did get one EVERY time I drank. So, now I'm afraid to drink. I miss it! Last night, I had a half can of Pepsi in a wine glass and then switched to water in my wine glass. The wine glass really helped.


In my life, zinfandel is full-bodied and red. I have no use for the "white" or blush zins because they are much too sweet, but everyone should drink what they like.

I get a headache next morning if I have more than one glass - but nothing close to a migraine, thankfully. So I limit my intake and get along just fine! I would seriously hate it if I had to give up wine, since I'm not into the hard stuff except for very good gin once in a while. Love beer, too, but don't imbibe very often. I would NOT be satisfied with water in a wine glass!


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Sorry, Maid, but you're not entitled to an opinion on that poor cat's picture. It would be cruel of you not to like what joey has wrought - or at least that's how "sweetie" sounds. The same way she sounds when talking about how hurt those poor women were at seeing anti-Republican cartoons.


Thanks for my first laugh of the day.:-D


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: second helping please miss, and can you bung in some mushy peas with those chips.


You can have all the mushy peas. I like mine petit and slightly cooked. :-D


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Grab your coat and grab your hat and buy a ticket for mid-January when we are trying to put together a get-together. Brat might come. PM her and share a hotel or an AirB&B.


Alas, no traveling for me this month. I'm trying to put together a trip to Seattle and Portland around Memorial Day. The details are too gory to post here. :-D :twisted:


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

DGreen said:


> American cheese isn't cheese. It's a processed dairy product! Bleah. Snowing here so I can't go out to get port - sounds divine. I guess I'll have to make do with a bottle of Zin or perhaps hot coffee with Kahlua.


I'll take a nice Stilton cheese served with port and walnuts. Yummy! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Duplicate post.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

damemary said:


> I think you have identified the source of dispute. Shades of meaning.


After reading a couple years worth of posts made by our dear D&P friends, I have become convinced they don't know the difference between lies and opinions. Maybe it's more exciting to believe opinions and disagreement are lies. I'm not quite sure if that equals shades of meaning. Seems more like the part of their brains that understands the definitions and proper use of words has been removed or never even existed in the first place.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> My eldest son told me that American cheddar cheese is orange in colour and is squeezed out of a tube. Is this true? He said that Americans also love our Browne's Cheddar cheese, which is one of our cheapest cheeses over here in Western Australia. It is the cheese mum grabs when she does the shopping because it is the cheapest. Do you not have Stilton, Danish Blue Vein, Camembert, goat's milk cheese, cheese made from sheep or camel milk and so many other different cheeses in your fridge just for everyday consumption. Yes, we are big cheese eaters in our family and have different varieties in the fridge. No, I have not tried the cheese made from camel milk, it is only available from selected outlets and is very expensive. Just wondering, and not meant to stir up trouble here.
> 
> I just noticed the time, I think it is still last night over there in the USA, you have not had your New Year's celebrations yet. So, I wish you all A Happy New Year, which should be in 2 hours and 35 minutes time from now. Sorry my calculations are a bit out, I noticed the post time 21:22:53 it is 10.26 am according to my computer.


It's possible to get American cheese that comes in a tube. One can even get it in an aerosol can We do have Stilton, Danish Blue Vein, Camembert, goat's milk cheese, cheese made from sheep milk. I've never heard of camel's milk cheese but I'm sure some gourmet cheese shops have it.The US also has a fine industry devoted to making lots of cheeses, most notably as far as I'm concerned, is our varieties of Cheddar. Should I send you a sampler? I am a devout cheesaholic.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> After reading a couple years worth of posts made by our dear D&P friends, I have become convinced they don't know the difference between lies and opinions. Maybe it's more exciting to believe opinions and disagreement are lies. I'm not quite sure if that equals shades of meaning. Seems more like the part of their brains that understands the definitions and proper use of words has been removed or never even existed in the first place.


They don't know the difference as the thinking of the right is very rigid and ideological without them knowing it. They are fed propaganda in sound bites and with gobs of emotionality. There is no thinking, but lots of self-righteousness. The left can be this way, too, but there is a great deal of looking into events and opinions that results in a broader dialogue. Remember how Kerry was slandered for being too intellectual when he ran for Pres? This country is pretty anti-intellectual and there are liberals like this, too. Strange, and pitiful to say, but my son has worked hard to become this way. Ugh!!

I was very happy to see articles coming out this past year that began to look at the difference between conservative, right wing thinking vs that of liberals or progressives who do have their differences, too. One article that I read this past week described Statism. It had a lot of truth to it, mainly talking about that real absence of freedom with people who don't actually question what is told to them. The vituperative reactions of many people inform us that we are dealing with deep belief systems, often not recognized by the person. But they will react strongly, even violently. It is called Cognitive Dissonance when people cannot handle hearing something that goes against these beliefs. WE have a lot of this on KP with the conservatives insinuating themselves on a progressive discussion and carrying on like lunatics demanding attention and adherence to their views without anything to back them up. They cannot do that as they have no material to draw on other than some authority figure like a priest saying so. It is more complicated than this as intellectual people and progressive people have their sticking points, too.

I am also looking at the depths of narcissism in conservative/reactionary thinking. Narcissism is really an American personality trait that has been bred by the 1% over the past 3-4 decades. Something more than worth exploring, in all people's behavior.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Duplicate.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes war and murder are definitely not nice and should be avoided, but that does not mean that one group of people can torture another group of people in retaliation.
> 
> Question: Who are the Iraci people you refer to in your posting? I have not heard of the Iraci people.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> It's possible to get American cheese that comes in a tube. One can even get it in an aerosol can. We do Stilton, Danish Blue Vein, Camembert, goat's milk cheese, cheese made from sheep milk. I've never heard of camel's milk cheese but I'm sure some gourmet cheese shops have it. We have a great cheese making industry h


I am sure there is a dairy product in areas where they have camels that give milk.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

tamarque said:


> They don't know the difference as the thinking of the right is very rigid and ideological without them knowing it. They are fed propaganda in sound bites and with gobs of emotionality. There is no thinking, but lots of self-righteousness. The left can be this way, too, but there is a great deal of looking into events and opinions that results in a broader dialogue. Remember how Kerry was slandered for being too intellectual when he ran for Pres? This country is pretty anti-intellectual and there are liberals like this, too. Strange, and pitiful to say, but my son has worked hard to become this way. Ugh!!
> 
> I was very happy to see articles coming out this past year that began to look at the difference between conservative, right wing thinking vs that of liberals or progressives who do have their differences, too. One article that I read this past week described Statism. It had a lot of truth to it, mainly talking about that real absence of freedom with people who don't actually question what is told to them. The vituperative reactions of many people inform us that we are dealing with deep belief systems, often not recognized by the person. But they will react strongly, even violently. WE have a lot of this on KP with the conservatives insinuating themselves on a progressive discussion and carrying on like lunatics demanding attention and adherence to their views without anything to back them up. They cannot do that as they have no material to draw on other than some authority figure like a priest saying so.
> 
> I am also looking at the depths of narcissism in conservative/reactionary thinking. Narcissism is really an American personality trait that has been bred by the 1% over the past 3-4 decades. Something more than worth exploring, in all people's behavior.


I agree that they don't know the difference between lies and opinions, fact and fiction and are happy to be told what to believe. Narcissism? Yeah, all too many people are completely concerned with getting what they want for themselves and don't seem to believe anyone exists at all no matter how many people they see around them.

Some of my many gripes are that people get no education in understanding what they read and no education in using words that would better express what they're trying to say. This really drives me up the wall.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> They don't know the difference as the thinking of the right is very rigid and ideological without them knowing it. They are fed propaganda in sound bites and with gobs of emotionality. There is no thinking, but lots of self-righteousness. The left can be this way, too, but there is a great deal of looking into events and opinions that results in a broader dialogue. Remember how Kerry was slandered for being too intellectual when he ran for Pres? This country is pretty anti-intellectual and there are liberals like this, too. Strange, and pitiful to say, but my son has worked hard to become this way. Ugh!!
> 
> I was very happy to see articles coming out this past year that began to look at the difference between conservative, right wing thinking vs that of liberals or progressives who do have their differences, too. One article that I read this past week described Statism. It had a lot of truth to it, mainly talking about that real absence of freedom with people who don't actually question what is told to them. The vituperative reactions of many people inform us that we are dealing with deep belief systems, often not recognized by the person. But they will react strongly, even violently. It is called Cognitive Dissonance when people cannot handle hearing something that goes against these beliefs. WE have a lot of this on KP with the conservatives insinuating themselves on a progressive discussion and carrying on like lunatics demanding attention and adherence to their views without anything to back them up. They cannot do that as they have no material to draw on other than some authority figure like a priest saying so. It is more complicated than this as intellectual people and progressive people have their sticking points, too.
> 
> I am also looking at the depths of narcissism in conservative/reactionary thinking. Narcissism is really an American personality trait that has been bred by the 1% over the past 3-4 decades. Something more than worth exploring, in all people's behavior.


I find this amusing, as everything you say about conservatives, is true of liberals as well. You're describing HUMAN traits in which everybody identifies with one group or another! Ignorance and narcissism exist within every group! Real freedom exists only when we look past the propaganda of both sides. As long as we fall for putting people in a box, we will never see truth!


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I remember Velveeta cheese from when I was a child. We had the usual variety of cheeses you purchased by the slice from the deli, and then Kraft Cheddar and Kraft Velveeta which you purchased from the grocer. The Kraft products did not have to be refrigerated until opened, they came in a cardboard box and were wrapped in foil. They did not really taste like cheese though. Then in the mid 50s the Velveeta disappeared from the shelves, I do not know why. Cheese in aerosol cans is stretching my imagination, spray on cheese? I thought those individually wrapped cheese slices was going far enough. Plastic cheese some of us call these cheese slices. Cheese in an aerosol can??? :roll: :roll: :roll:


Velveeta is alive and well here in the US. I confess I still like to have some now and then. Must be one of those comfort foods, with a dash of nostalgia for my childhood thrown in for good measure.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Snow is the big news of the day in my neck of the woods. Went out for an early morning walk - with camera, of course. The sun is coming out now and the whole world glitters. This is an amazing day for a transplanted desert rat.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> You can have all the mushy peas. I like mine petit and slightly cooked. :-D


This is the best way. Big ones have lost their flavor; overcooked ones have lost their texture.

As a child, I used to go through a pound of peas in the pod at a sitting. I loved it when my mom bought several pounds and asked me to shell them. There was always enough for my snack and for dinner. Now I rarely find those. There are either snow peas, which have nothing inside the shell, or sugar-snap peas, which are meant to be eaten with the shell.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> This is the best way. Big ones have lost their flavor; overcooked ones have lost their texture.
> 
> As a child, I used to go through a pound of peas in the pod at a sitting. I loved it when my mom bought several pounds and asked me to shell them. There was always enough for my snack and for dinner. Now I rarely find those. There are either snow peas, which have nothing inside the shell, or sugar-snap peas, which are meant to be eaten with the shell.


PP-- snow peas are edible pea pods and they are very popular today. But there are regular pea pods to be shell. I loved when my mother bought fresh peas in season. It was easy to begin to pick thru the bag and not stop till it was finished!!

Today I don't grow them as they come in way too fast to keep up with the picking of any of the varieties. But I do like fresh green beans which do the same thing for me and are much easier to manage.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> After reading a couple years worth of posts made by our dear D&P friends, I have become convinced they don't know the difference between lies and opinions. Maybe it's more exciting to believe opinions and disagreement are lies. I'm not quite sure if that equals shades of meaning. Seems more like the part of their brains that understands the definitions and proper use of words has been removed or never even existed in the first place.


Of course they know the difference between lies and opinions. Opinions are what they have, and express. Lies are what you and I express. They also seem to be unaware that questions cannot be lies.

I think they all have a logic disability. I've noticed it in joey many times. Last week soloweygirl showed hers. Someone asked when the riots would begin over the killings of two NYC police. Naturally, this was nothing like the situation in Ferguson.



Poor Purl said:


> The shooter in this case was also insane, and he killed himself, too. Maybe if Darren Wilson had killed himself or pleaded guilty by reason of insanity, there would have been no need for protests. But Wilson was treated like the (only) victim.
> 
> Do you really not see the difference between the situations? Or do you choose to be so dense?





soloweygirl said:


> Why should a police officer kill himself for doing his job? It's you that doesn't see the difference between the situations. Michael Brown blah blah blah. Al Sharpton burble burble burble.


She read my explanation as advocating that Wilson should have killed himself. Of course it made no sense - it was going on only in her mind.

And I won't even touch the missing logic in the messages of LTL and KPG.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> They don't know the difference as the thinking of the right is very rigid and ideological without them knowing it. They are fed propaganda in sound bites and with gobs of emotionality. There is no thinking, but lots of self-righteousness. The left can be this way, too, but there is a great deal of looking into events and opinions that results in a broader dialogue. Remember how Kerry was slandered for being too intellectual when he ran for Pres? This country is pretty anti-intellectual and there are liberals like this, too. Strange, and pitiful to say, but my son has worked hard to become this way. Ugh!!
> 
> I was very happy to see articles coming out this past year that began to look at the difference between conservative, right wing thinking vs that of liberals or progressives who do have their differences, too. One article that I read this past week described Statism. It had a lot of truth to it, mainly talking about that real absence of freedom with people who don't actually question what is told to them. The vituperative reactions of many people inform us that we are dealing with deep belief systems, often not recognized by the person. But they will react strongly, even violently. It is called Cognitive Dissonance when people cannot handle hearing something that goes against these beliefs. WE have a lot of this on KP with the conservatives insinuating themselves on a progressive discussion and carrying on like lunatics demanding attention and adherence to their views without anything to back them up. They cannot do that as they have no material to draw on other than some authority figure like a priest saying so. It is more complicated than this as intellectual people and progressive people have their sticking points, too.
> 
> I am also looking at the depths of narcissism in conservative/reactionary thinking. Narcissism is really an American personality trait that has been bred by the 1% over the past 3-4 decades. Something more than worth exploring, in all people's behavior.


How right you are! Rather, how correct you are!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Snow is the big news of the day in my neck of the woods. Went out for an early morning walk - with camera, of course. The sun is coming out now and the whole world glitters. This is an amazing day for a transplanted desert rat.


Oh, how fortunate you are. It is very beautiful.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> PP-- snow peas are edible pea pods and they are very popular today. But there are regular pea pods to be shell. I loved when my mother bought fresh peas in season. It was easy to begin to pick thru the bag and not stop till it was finished!!
> 
> Today I don't grow them as they come in way too fast to keep up with the picking of any of the varieties. But I do like fresh green beans which do the same thing for me and are much easier to manage.


I understand about snow peas. But we rarely get regular peas around here, and when they come in they cost about $3 a pound, which, without the pods, makes the peas inside about $5 a pound.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I find this amusing, as everything you say about conservatives, is true of liberals as well. You're describing HUMAN traits in which everybody identifies with one group or another! Ignorance and narcissism exist within every group! Real freedom exists only when we look past the propaganda of both sides. As long as we fall for putting people in a box, we will never see truth!


KFN--if you read my post carefully you would have seen I also referenced people on the liberal/progressive end, too. The difference is that there is more possibility for discussion on variation on a theme than with conservative, right wing people.

Narcissism was promoted by the neo-con ideology which seeks to isolate people for easier manipulation and disempowerment.
Your comment about not putting people in a box is questionable. I think we need to be able to categorize positions and the people who hold them. Otherwise you are participating in the creating isolation. There are similarities betw groups of people and to deny that just creates more of the same. I find this idea that we must not categorize and must never label things a real problem of liberalism. It winds up avoiding ever making definitive judgements about behavior and policies to support or fight against. What is missing is core values or admission of the belief systems that guide one's life.

Here is an interesting article base on a 1979 book on narcissism. Food for discussion here i think:

http://www.alternet.org/culture/can-we-escape-narcissism-america-5-possible-antidotes?akid=12633.276957.c_L89A&rd=1&src=newsletter1029524&t=3&paging=off&current_page=1#bookmark


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> She read my explanation as advocating that Wilson should have killed himself. Of course it made no sense - it was going on only in her mind.
> 
> And I won't even touch the missing logic in the messages of LTL and KPG.


Who is KPG? There is also Ute4f?? who has the same lack of hearing, much less thinking.

When people cannot hear the difference and are unwilling to try you have cognitive dissonance. It is impossible to argue with them as they operate out of unspoken beliefs which they won't admit. Ex. Last week I told a man that he had no right to refer to me as 'dear.' Of course the man came back and challenged me on this. Deciding to play it straight, I gave him an answer about the nature of the power relation in sexism and noted there is no word in the English language for women to use with men equally. It is an oxymoron as women do not have structural power over men and the language reflects this. He and his male buddies (I was the lone woman in the conversation--yes, where angels dare to tread) made a mockery of my comments. One man listed a bunch of curse words, none of which related to power relationships. The original man wrote to ask for more information because he was a bright man and could understand. Of course he couldn't because intelligence was not the problem: patriarcy was and he refused to see that. I cut the conversation--I took power. The reaction was that the men didn't want to talk to me as I was stupid!!! May not always express myself the way I want, but stupid? No.

The TP and conservative right people on KP are non-stop examples of this kind of behavior. Twisting what is said is a common tactic to avoid the information being presented.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

My last comment--at least for a bit. Relative to PP's comments about logic disability, clearly a result of the intentional dumbing down of the public:

http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/12/29/7-signs-may-victim-statism/

Some people may disagree, but my personal experience is that the most important aspect of education is what used to be called Civics, the training of students in the State's mythological ideology and obedience to it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Just catching up on the past several pages. Last nite I stretched out about 7 pm and that was it for me. Thinking about my workshop in 3 weeks here on KP (yes I am doing one--hope some of you join in) and simply zoned out till about 3 a.m. Law and Order is doing one of their marathon runs on TV so picked up where I left off last nite.
> 
> Funny food discussion on cheese. Takes me back. Remember the advent of Velveeta and the bags of margarine. They came in, as memory serves, about the time TVs became accessible to the working public in the 1950's. All that saved money from returning soldiers and military installations converting to consumer goods. Mass marketing on TV telling the housewife about the benefits of new appliances and plastic foods. TV dinners allowed the working mother to feed her family easily. We all got suckered into the new consumerism. S&H blue stamps and other such gimmicks allowed the working class person to have access to lots of glittery things. My mother saved books of these stamps and had a kitchen filled with chrome plated appliances. And the food became more packaged and artificial. Such was considered progress. Today we realize for who that was.
> 
> ...


I'm just commenting on Zabar's, which is still here and thriving, though it doesn't limit itself to cheeses. When you walk into the main entrance, however, the first place you come to is the cheese section, very large and with a huge selection.

Then there are smoked fish; meats, both raw and pre-prepared; baked goods, at reasonable prices; and a huge section of coffees, in the bean, and teas, by the ounce. There are also whatever you need for these items, like coffee filters and tea infusers. And then there is upstairs, where you can buy anything from a $1 wooden spoon to whatever $500 machine you need to take over your kitchen chores.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I find this amusing, as everything you say about conservatives, is true of liberals as well. You're describing HUMAN traits in which everybody identifies with one group or another! Ignorance and narcissism exist within every group! Real freedom exists only when we look past the propaganda of both sides. As long as we fall for putting people in a box, we will never see truth!


On this your opinion is unwarranted. Not on ignorance and narcissism but on rigidity and the need to have an authority to tell you what to think. If you didn't already have your mind made up, you might have noticed it.

At the very least, the left hasn't sought out and given all their attention to an organization like Fox News, which has been caught in lies umpteen times but which the right nevertheless believes.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

So beautiful and serene. Thanks for sharing your photos.



DGreen said:


> Snow is the big news of the day in my neck of the woods. Went out for an early morning walk - with camera, of course. The sun is coming out now and the whole world glitters. This is an amazing day for a transplanted desert rat.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> She read my explanation as advocating that Wilson should have killed himself. Of course it made no sense - it was going on only in her mind.
> 
> And I won't even touch the missing logic in the messages of LTL and KPG.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The only answer seems to be to find a place to plant a packet of seeds and attach a trellis (a dead branch will do.) Eat them all as soon as you see them and then dream for another year.



Poor Purl said:


> I understand about snow peas. But we rarely get regular peas around here, and when they come in they cost about $3 a pound, which, without the pods, makes the peas inside about $5 a pound.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'd love to browse in Zabar's and I normally hate to shop.



Poor Purl said:


> I'm just commenting on Zabar's, which is still here and thriving, though it doesn't limit itself to cheeses. When you walk into the main entrance, however, the first place you come to is the cheese section, very large and with a huge selection.
> 
> Then there are smoked fish; meats, both raw and pre-prepared; baked goods, at reasonable prices; and a huge section of coffees, in the bean, and teas, by the ounce. There are also whatever you need for these items, like coffee filters and tea infusers. And then there is upstairs, where you can buy anything from a $1 wooden spoon to whatever $500 machine you need to take over your kitchen chores.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Who is KPG? There is also Ute4f?? who has the same lack of hearing, much less thinking.
> 
> When people cannot hear the difference and are unwilling to try you have cognitive dissonance. It is impossible to argue with them as they operate out of unspoken beliefs which they won't admit. Ex. Last week I told a man that he had no right to refer to me as 'dear.' Of course the man came back and challenged me on this. Deciding to play it straight, I gave him an answer about the nature of the power relation in sexism and noted there is no word in the English language for women to use with men equally. It is an oxymoron as women do not have structural power over men and the language reflects this. He and his male buddies (I was the lone woman in the conversation--yes, where angels dare to tread) made a mockery of my comments. One man listed a bunch of curse words, none of which related to power relationships. The original man wrote to ask for more information because he was a bright man and could understand. Of course he couldn't because intelligence was not the problem: patriarchy was and he refused to see that. I cut the conversation--I took power. The reaction was that the men didn't want to talk to me as I was stupid!!! May not always express myself the way I want, but stupid? No.
> 
> The TP and conservative right people on KP are non-stop examples of this kind of behavior. Twisting what is said is a common tactic to avoid the information being presented.


If you've never encountered knitpresentgifts (KPG), you have been very fortunate. She's the leader of the D&P crowd, a "conservative" who has such hatred of liberals that she can't mention the word without a slew of insults.

Needless to say, she once announced that she keeps Fox News on in her house all day. And I think the Twist is her favorite dance.

Ute is often one of us, though she is sometimes so wry in her comments that people can't see it.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> If you've never encountered knitpresentgifts (KPG), you have been very fortunate. She's the leader of the D&P crowd, a "conservative" who has such hatred of liberals that she can't mention the word without a slew of insults.
> 
> Needless to say, she once announced that she keeps Fox News on in her house all day. And I think the Twist is her favorite dance.
> 
> Ute is often one of us, though she is sometimes so wry in her comments that people can't see it.


Strange. Ran into her on this conservative talk glorifying the police this week. She went off on a rant against me with no understanding of what I was saying. While others disliked my comment, I think she was the one who began this chasing me off to go to a progressive site. So, based on your description, she is a very confused person in her politics.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Strange. Ran into her on this conservative talk glorifying the police this week. She went off on a rant against me with no understanding of what I was saying. While others disliked my comment, I think she was the one who began this chasing me off to go to a progressive site. So, based on your description, she is a very confused person in her politics.


Can you point me in that direction? I may be wrong about her.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> This is the best way. Big ones have lost their flavor; overcooked ones have lost their texture.
> 
> As a child, I used to go through a pound of peas in the pod at a sitting. I loved it when my mom bought several pounds and asked me to shell them. There was always enough for my snack and for dinner. Now I rarely find those. There are either snow peas, which have nothing inside the shell, or sugar-snap peas, which are meant to be eaten with the shell.


I do not know if this also applies to pea farmers in the USA, but here in Western Australia the pea farmers are under contract to the major frozen food companies. They do not pick their pea crop by hand but by a mechanical harvester, which is part of their contract. The company owns the harvester and it picks the peas on all the farms under contract to supply the peas. Perhaps their acreage under peas is too large to employ hand pickers, I do not know. The mechanical picker not only picks the pea crop but it also shells the peas during the same operation. These peas are then taken directly to the processing plant where they are snap frozen. The pods come out bailed as pea straw. When we lived in Mt Barker my friends had a pea contact and she would tell us when the harvester was due on her property. We would visit her and have lunch and would go home with enough shelled peas to freeze for 12 months. I also collected enough to give to two old age pensioner couples I knew. All that was required was that we held a bucked under the shoot of the harvester and the operator pressed the button and out came the shelled peas. We used to grow our own peas before I met Lucy, whose husband grew the peas. She told me she would give me 12 months supply of peas in exchange for fruit from our orchard - apricots, plums, apples, pears, cherries, nectarines, figs, mulberries, quinces, peaches. A good bargain for both of us. You can still buy unshelled peas but they are expensive as they come from the smaller, specialised producer.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

tamarque said:


> Strange. Ran into her on this conservative talk glorifying the police this week. She went off on a rant against me with no understanding of what I was saying. While others disliked my comment, I think she was the one who began this chasing me off to go to a progressive site. So, based on your description, she is a very confused person in her politics.


Changed my mind


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I do not know if this also applies to pea farmers in the USA, but here in Western Australia the pea farmers are under contract to the major frozen food companies. They do not pick their pea crop by hand but by a mechanical harvester, which is part of their contract. The company owns the harvester and it picks the peas on all the farms under contract to supply the peas. Perhaps their acreage under peas is too large to employ hand pickers, I do not know. The mechanical picker not only picks the pea crop but it also shells the peas during the same operation. These peas are then taken directly to the processing plant where they are snap frozen. The pods come out bailed as pea straw. When we lived in Mt Barker my friends had a pea contact and she would tell us when the harvester was due on her property. We would visit her and have lunch and would go home with enough shelled peas to freeze for 12 months. I also collected enough to give to two old age pensioner couples I knew. All that was required was that we held a bucked under the shoot of the harvester and the operator pressed the button and out came the shelled peas. We used to grow our own peas before I met Lucy, whose husband grew the peas. She told me she would give me 12 months supply of peas in exchange for fruit from our orchard - apricots, plums, apples, pears, cherries, nectarines, figs, mulberries, quinces, peaches. A good bargain for both of us. You can still buy unshelled peas but they are expensive as they come from the smaller, specialised producer.


I dont know about peas specifically, but much of agribiz works in a mechanized way under contract. The chicken industry here is absolutely horrific in the way chickens are given 1 sf of space to live. They are mechanically 'harvested' and w/o regard to being alive or not, are thrown into the processors that begin to clean and cut them. Those harvesting pieces of equipment are very expensive to it makes sense under a capitalist system to have them owned by a corporation that contracts out the growing and harvesting. Smaller farmers and the smaller organic farmers all do planting and harvesting by hand still. At the farmer's markets the peas are not shelled. Brands like Cascade which is labelled Organic is owned by Kellogs (as in Kellogs Cornflakes) and I would imagine those peas are grown on large scale farms or small farms that are collectively contracted or some similar arrangement.

Your barter system with all your fruit sounds great.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

quotes from Ute4KP (are we talking about the same person?

tamarque wrote:
Too bad those cops were shot, but they are the authors of their own fate. When police start acting like they really are part of the community and there for people, they will receive the kind of support they want. 

How many know that policing began as vigilant type groups/people who were hired to track down runaway slaves. Sorry to say that mentality has not changed in 300 yrs.

Ute4KP:
I'd pay attention to your post on a politcal thread and not hijacking this one for your own agenda.

Beware of "people like me"
I'm a squirrel-rabbit.
a regular here


kittykatzmom wrote:
Over all I support the men and women in blue, BUT not the local yokels! I have been harassed and stalked and it is going into the 4th year and the idiots in law enforcement in this county can't seem to do anything. Yes a few more months and I will be moving. Hard to give support to law enforcement officers who are plain stupid and ignorant!

Ute4KP:
Take your garbage to a politcal thread.

Beware of "people like me"
I'm a squirrel-rabbit....lol.


Dec 30, 14 02:51:20
ute4kp
a regular here


kayknitty wrote:
Not all in blue are law abiding citizens. We need to understand that.

Ute4KP:
More politcal junk. Take it elsewhere.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Tamarque - what thread was this on? The Squirrel is a great person.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

SQM said:


> Tamarque - what thread was this on? The Squirrel is a great person.


There is a discussion this past week not he killing to the 2 cops. It is called Police Officers, about 6 or 7 pp long. I copied a short string of comments for this forum. I don't know this Squirrel. That line got copied with the others. Cannot comment on it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I do not know if this also applies to pea farmers in the USA, but here in Western Australia the pea farmers are under contract to the major frozen food companies. They do not pick their pea crop by hand but by a mechanical harvester, which is part of their contract. The company owns the harvester and it picks the peas on all the farms under contract to supply the peas. Perhaps their acreage under peas is too large to employ hand pickers, I do not know. The mechanical picker not only picks the pea crop but it also shells the peas during the same operation. These peas are then taken directly to the processing plant where they are snap frozen. The pods come out bailed as pea straw. When we lived in Mt Barker my friends had a pea contact and she would tell us when the harvester was due on her property. We would visit her and have lunch and would go home with enough shelled peas to freeze for 12 months. I also collected enough to give to two old age pensioner couples I knew. All that was required was that we held a bucked under the shoot of the harvester and the operator pressed the button and out came the shelled peas. We used to grow our own peas before I met Lucy, whose husband grew the peas. She told me she would give me 12 months supply of peas in exchange for fruit from our orchard - apricots, plums, apples, pears, cherries, nectarines, figs, mulberries, quinces, peaches. A good bargain for both of us. You can still buy unshelled peas but they are expensive as they come from the smaller, specialised producer.


I'm sure most produce in the US is also spoken for. And for us city-slickers, there's no way to get what we would like, because we'd be competing with business. I've never seen machines picking anything; I loved your description. Do you still have an orchard?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> quotes from Ute4KP (are we talking about the same person?
> 
> tamarque wrote:
> Too bad those cops were shot, but they are the authors of their own fate. When police start acting like they really are part of the community and there for people, they will receive the kind of support they want.
> ...


Without knowing what thread(s) these came from, it's impossible to know whether she disagrees with you or wants to get back to an earlier discussion. And there are even staunch progressives who come from families in which many are police and therefore wouldn't want to hear them described negatively.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> KFN--if you read my post carefully you would have seen I also referenced people on the liberal/progressive end, too. The difference is that there is more possibility for discussion on variation on a theme than with conservative, right wing people.
> 
> Narcissism was promoted by the neo-con ideology which seeks to isolate people for easier manipulation and disempowerment.
> Your comment about not putting people in a box is questionable. I think we need to be able to categorize positions and the people who hold them. Otherwise you are participating in the creating isolation. There are similarities betw groups of people and to deny that just creates more of the same. I find this idea that we must not categorize and must never label things a real problem of liberalism. It winds up avoiding ever making definitive judgements about behavior and policies to support or fight against. What is missing is core values or admission of the belief systems that guide one's life.
> ...


I think in most cases, there's precious little room for discussion on either side. And that saddens me.

I don't see narcissism as being promoted by neo con's. I've always seen it as a movement by progressives. The whole "I'm OK, you're OK", " if it feels good, do it" movement, encouraged people to think only of themselves and discouraged moral judgment of bad behaviors. It was around the same time when so many people developed an entitlement mentality and more and more, were pushing socialistic ideologies. I've never considered how capitalism created narcissism, but I can see how it does to a degree. The "I'm entitled to everything" mentality. But I still believe that the primary causation was the breakdown in mores.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> On this your opinion is unwarranted. Not on ignorance and narcissism but on rigidity and the need to have an authority to tell you what to think. If you didn't already have your mind made up, you might have noticed it.
> 
> At the very least, the left hasn't sought out and given all their attention to an organization like Fox News, which has been caught in lies umpteen times but which the right nevertheless believes.


I don't understand. Are you suggesting that I need an authority to tell me what to think? Why is my opinion unwarranted?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> The only answer seems to be to find a place to plant a packet of seeds and attach a trellis (a dead branch will do.) Eat them all as soon as you see them and then dream for another year.


I've planted peas for four years in a row. The rabbits eat them every year. I've not found anything that successfully keeps them out. :evil: But at least while they're nibbling away on peas, they're not eating everything else. Funny: DH bought a no kill trap. He put lots of different goodies in there, trying to catch the rabbits. But I said, "Why would they go in there when they have a whole garden to munch on?". That was a waste of $40!


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Without knowing what thread(s) these came from, it's impossible to know whether she disagrees with you or wants to get back to an earlier discussion. And there are even staunch progressives who come from families in which many are police and therefore wouldn't want to hear them described negatively.


I sent the name of the discussion. it is called Police Offiers in the chit chat section.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm sure most produce in the US is also spoken for. And for us city-slickers, there's no way to get what we would like, because we'd be competing with business. I've never seen machines picking anything; I loved your description. Do you still have an orchard?


Here's a very interesting video of how cherries are harvested. It's cool!





We have a food co-op where we can buy food directly from the growers. We also have several farmer's markets. But not all of the food is organic.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> If you've never encountered knitpresentgifts (KPG), you have been very fortunate. She's the leader of the D&P crowd, a "conservative" who has such hatred of liberals that she can't mention the word without a slew of insults.
> 
> Needless to say, she once announced that she keeps Fox News on in her house all day. And I think the Twist is her favorite dance.
> 
> Ute is often one of us, though she is sometimes so wry in her comments that people can't see it.


The D&P thread has no leader, so I have no idea why you would say that. We are not a cult that needs to be led, we are a group of friends that like to chat. Not sure about the Fox News comment, I know she sews a lot, so maybe it is in the background. I know for a fact that she is too young to have the Twist be her favorite dance unless she is doing something Retro. I think she is more of a 80's gal, not in her 80's.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> The D&P thread has no leader, so I have no idea why you would say that. We are not a cult that needs to be led, we are a group of friends that like to chat. Not sure about the Fox News comment, I know she sews a lot, so maybe it is in the background. I know for a fact that she is too young to have the Twist be her favorite dance unless she is doing something Retro. I think she is more of a 80's gal, not in her 80's.


Hmm, I didn't see anyone here describing D&P as a "cult". That is one of your favorite words it seems. 
You really do like to slap elderly women around, don't you? It certainly doesn't look good on you. It is known that with age comes wisdom. I guess you really are a young heifer or the wisdom just missed you all together.
Then again, I'm just an AOLW (Amazingly Outstanding Liberal Woman) voicing her opinion.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

tamarque said:


> Strange. Ran into her on this conservative talk glorifying the police this week. She went off on a rant against me with no understanding of what I was saying. While others disliked my comment, I think she was the one who began this chasing me off to go to a progressive site. So, based on your description, she is a very confused person in her politics.


She's very consistent and not confused at all. Anyone who doesn't see things exactly the way she does is the devil incarnate.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I've had success with large pot or tall raised bed with no steps or grade to climb up. They got my strawberries too and the worst part is they'd just take a bite out of each one.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I've planted peas for four years in a row. The rabbits eat them every year. I've not found anything that successfully keeps them out. :evil: But at least while they're nibbling away on peas, they're not eating everything else. Funny: DH bought a no kill trap. He put lots of different goodies in there, trying to catch the rabbits. But I said, "Why would they go in there when they have a whole garden to munch on?". That was a waste of $40!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Hmm, I didn't see anyone here describing D&P as a "cult". That is one of your favorite words it seems.
> You really do like to slap elderly women around, don't you? It certainly doesn't look good on you. It is known that with age comes wisdom. I guess you really are a young heifer or the wisdom just missed you all together.
> Then again, I'm just an AOLW (Amazingly Outstanding Liberal Woman) voicing her opinion.


Or AWOL - Awesome Women On the Left.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> She's very consistent and not confused at all. Anyone who doesn't see things exactly the way she does is the devil incarnate.


I think we are talking here about Ute, The Squirrel???? She seems to be very thoughtful and kind.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> I sent the name of the discussion. it is called Police Offiers in the chit chat section.


I saw it. I can understand why your post turned some people off. To say that the two NY cops killed in their car had brought it on themselves was kind of harsh, and in this case untrue, since the shooter was a lunatic.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think in most cases, there's precious little room for discussion on either side. And that saddens me.
> 
> I don't see narcissism as being promoted by neo con's. I've always seen it as a movement by progressives. The whole "I'm OK, you're OK", " if it feels good, do it" movement, encouraged people to think only of themselves and discouraged moral judgment of bad behaviors. It was around the same time when so many people developed an entitlement mentality and more and more, were pushing socialistic ideologies. I've never considered how capitalism created narcissism, but I can see how it does to a degree. The "I'm entitled to everything" mentality. But I still believe that the primary causation was the breakdown in mores.


I doubt that this is what you actually see. You've picked up the language of various Republican leaders, even though you deny being a Repub.

That has more to do with what those people want you to believe that what progressives do and want.

And narcissism has always existed. Some biblical characters could be seen as narcissistic (King David was probably the most important one). King Midas was clearly narcissistic.

Never mind. I recently got some bad news and am very depressed right now.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't understand. Are you suggesting that I need an authority to tell me what to think? Why is my opinion unwarranted?


You know I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the general class of people who refer to themselves as conservatives and/or Republicans.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> The only answer seems to be to find a place to plant a packet of seeds and attach a trellis (a dead branch will do.) Eat them all as soon as you see them and then dream for another year.


When DS was in kindergarten, he planted green beans in a pot, which sat on his window. He got 3 green beans from it. He said they were very good.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'd love to browse in Zabar's and I normally hate to shop.


You'd probably hate to browse there. It's almost always full of shoppers, there's a line at every counter. But the cashiers are amazingly efficient, so you get out quickly.

At certain times, though, it's a good place to bump into people you haven't seen in a while, though that's happened to me in Trader Joe's and also in Macy's.

Just browsing their website can be fun: http://www.zabars.com/


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'd suggest biggest pot you can find and plant outside early & protected from the cold.



Poor Purl said:


> When DS was in kindergarten, he planted green beans in a pot, which sat on his window. He got 3 green beans from it. He said they were very good.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> The D&P thread has no leader, so I have no idea why you would say that. We are not a cult that needs to be led, we are a group of friends that like to chat. Not sure about the Fox News comment, I know she sews a lot, so maybe it is in the background. I know for a fact that she is too young to have the Twist be her favorite dance unless she is doing something Retro. I think she is more of a 80's gal, not in her 80's.


Oh, I forgot about you humorectomy - the favorite dance remark was a joke, based on her ability to twist things.

As for your opening, you haven't seen yourselves as others see you. Jeez, she didn't like something sqm said, and the sloth became persona non grata over there.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Hmm, I didn't see anyone here describing D&P as a "cult". That is one of your favorite words it seems.
> You really do like to slap elderly women around, don't you? It certainly doesn't look good on you. It is known that with age comes wisdom. I guess you really are a young heifer or the wisdom just missed you all together.
> Then again, I'm just an AOLW (Amazingly Outstanding Liberal Woman) voicing her opinion.










[/URL]


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> She's very consistent and not confused at all. Anyone who doesn't see things exactly the way she does is the devil incarnate.


This doesn't sound like ute4kp; it sounds a lot like KPG.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'd suggest biggest pot you can find and plant outside early & protected from the cold.


You seem to have forgotten that "outside" is a spot in the air 80 feet above ground.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Oh, I forgot about you humorectomy - the favorite dance remark was a joke, based on her ability to twist things.
> 
> As for your opening, you haven't seen yourselves as others see you. Jeez, she didn't like something sqm said, and the sloth became persona non grata over there.


I have become Persona non grata on other threads, too. So what's new?

What is the thread Connections about? They have been flourishing for a long time. When I lurk, I cannot figure them out.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I've had success with large pot or tall raised bed with no steps or grade to climb up. They got my strawberries too and the worst part is they'd just take a bite out of each one.


I've raised beds, but they're only 10" tall. The birds get my strawberries before the rabbits can get to them. Next spring we're going to build a frame and put netting around them. Of course, that's probably just saving them for the rabbits. And to think, I used to LIKE bunny rabbits.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Or AWOL - Awesome Women On the Left.


Do I have to be a COW? Could you come up with a good one, just for me?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I doubt that this is what you actually see. You've picked up the language of various Republican leaders, even though you deny being a Repub.
> 
> That has more to do with what those people want you to believe that what progressives do and want.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you got bad news. I hope it will resolve itself.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I have become Persona non grata on other threads, too. So what's new?
> 
> What is the thread Connections about? They have been flourishing for a long time. When I lurk, I cannot figure them out.


I was just using you as an example of why KPG appears to be the leader over there. All you need is her disapproval, and most of the others want nothing to do with you.

I know nothing about Connections.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Do I have to be a COW? Could you come up with a good one, just for me?


You don't want to be a Conservative Obnoxious Woman? Who woulda thought?

Think up something yourself - I'm too depressed. But at least make it pronounceable, not like the name they give us.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> In the US it has been shown that 85% of white people are significantly deficient in Vit D. People with darker skins have even worse stats. Sunscreen blocks out the rays that help form Vit D in the body but allow the ones that cause cancer to penetrate. Talk about a sinister industry!!!!
> 
> Mercola once wrote that adequate Vit D will help prevent sunburn. My one case testing this is my daughter who would get a terrible case of sunburn every year despite her darker skin. When she went to Haiti a few yrs ago where the sun is extremely strong and closer to the equator than NYS, I had her take 5000 iu/daily for a month before her trip. No sunburn!!
> 
> If 1000 iu/daily got your blood levels up to 50 that is very good. You must have very good nutrition and low levels of inflammation in your system.


I like the no sunburn scenario! My blood level is now sitting in the early 90's and I've been taking 1000 i.u. D3 for about 3 years. I am most interested in D3's other wonders so thanks again for the links you provided.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm sorry you got bad news. I hope it will resolve itself.


It was the death of a politician I respected, no, I liked very much, Mario Cuomo. He was one reason I don't think all politicians are alike.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Zinfandel is a variety of full-bodied red wine. I do love good red wine!


I have to concur. A beautiful cabernet sauvignong accompanying a Fillet Mignon!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You don't want to be a Conservative Obnoxious Woman? Who woulda thought?
> 
> Think up something yourself - I'm too depressed. But at least make it pronounceable, not like the name they give us.


I'll distract you. Mil called this afternoon. A water pipe broke next door and water was flooding her living room. We rushed over, dried and moved her furniture and hubby used his wet vac to keep the water from spreading to the other side of the room. I had to move about a hundred knick knacks, just to move all the tables and curio cabinet. They got the water shut off next door and a carpet guy came and sucked the water out of the carpet. Then he lifted up two corners and stuck fans underneath. She's not too happy about having everything in disarray and having to listen to fans. So, we took her out to dinner and she felt better.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It was the death of a politician I respected, no, I liked very much, Mario Cuomo. He was one reason I don't think all politicians are alike.


I'm sorry. I won't try to pretend I know anything about him. But if you respected him, he mattered.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm sure most produce in the US is also spoken for. And for us city-slickers, there's no way to get what we would like, because we'd be competing with business. I've never seen machines picking anything; I loved your description. Do you still have an orchard?


No, unfortunately my ex sold the property, not as a whole but as individual blocks. It was originally thirty acres plus the use of a gazetted but unmade road on four titles, he split one title into two and sold the five titles as individual lots. The orchard does not exist any more either as the people who bought the land from us, or who subsequently bought the land from the people who bought the land from us, were not interested in the hard work that goes into growing fruit. The satsuma plum trees that were growing next to the new house we built on the property were a great little money earner. Sadly, there are now two houses where the satsumas once grew. We sold all our fruit from the door, plus the jams, sauces and preserves I made, together with our eggs and home grown vegies. Sadly the people who now live on the property do not sell anything, they probably do not grow their own vegies either.

Why did my ex sell the farm, a place my son still remembers and misses? M O N E Y, he said he only bought the property because he knew he could make money on it. He never purchased it to make it a home, not a house where we could live but a home; there is a big difference. He also had to move. He got up everyone's nose, he rubbed everyone up the wrong way. He always had to be the Mr Big. Look at me I am more intelligent than you are, I have a better education than you do, I know these thing, you do not. Initially people thought he was great, he was a very good looking and very fit man and he seemed to go out of his way to help people, but then people realised he was a Jekyll and Hyde. He really only helped others if he thought he could get something in return, especially monetary reward and the 'isn't he great' type of reward. He became isolated in that community so he would up stakes and move to another location where people did not know him. He was not run out of the community, tarred and feathered, but he was isolated. This isolation was extended to us, his wife and child, although I had a lot of friends he did not know about.

Now back to your question as to whether I still have an orchard. I only have half an acre of land. There were fruit trees growing, 2 orange trees, 1 mandarin, 1 fig, 1 grapefruit, 1 loquat tree. The trees were nearly 40 years old when I moved in, still producing fruit. With our severe water restrictions we can only water our gardens with fixed hoses on two days a week between the hours of 6.00 pm and 6.00 am, and you cannot use a fixed hose at all in Spring. I am too old to go stumbling around in the dark changing the position of the hoses. The mandarin tree died, as did the fig and the loquat. I have not replaced them, as I said they were growing down the back of the property and I am too old to stumble around in the dark to water them, plus Perth soils are just sand, of very poor quality and need a lot of manure and mulching to enrich them in order to produce fruit and vegetables. I do have a lemonade tree I planted near the house and that is easier to water. I have a fig seedling that sprung up self sown in one of my potted plants but I do not really know where to plant it out, I do not want to plant it way down the back and I do not have enough room in the inner back yard to plant it. I have a banana plant, well actually a plantain or cooking banana, they are not the nicest to eat. I bought this banana plant with me from the house we were renting before I bought this house. Bananas can be grown from the new plants that shoot up from the roots of the old plants. Perth summers are too dry, too hot and too long for the successful growing of fruit unless you have your own water supply. There is a well on the property but I do not use it, I do not have the pumping equipment for a start and I was advised that the water had gone saline after the Shire put in several large bores in the district to water their ovals. All the larger blocks in the street initially had their own bores but all lost their water when the big bores were installed by the Shire. One of my next door neighbours had his well down the back of the property and he told me when I moved in that the person who installed the well on my property had put it in the wrong position, he had missed the main underground stream. Albert said he could still use his bore until February because it was on a different stream. He had a great orchard, but one of the subsequent owners chain sawed most of the trees down. Why? Because he said he would never eat that much fruit. I told him that Albert gave most of his fruit away to neighbours and friends who did not have fruit trees and this idiot with the chain saw just replied that he was not going to do that. Since then the home has been bought by someone who just wants to sit on it and wait until it can be subdivided or units built on the land. The result has been a succession of tenants, mostly bad. The result; the orchard has gone and nature is taking over. Weeds and self sown trees, mainly the Japanese Pepper tree and Cape Lilacs and She Oaks plus some Marri Trees, all self sown. A few fruit trees are struggling but they too will give up the ghost soon.

I have grown a lot of native trees on my block, mainly from seed and cutting. These trees do not need regular watering, especially after they are established. The are native to the area therefore they grow well. They provide me with shade and they provide food and protection for the birds. Unfortunately they also provide too much shade for vegetables to be grown successfully as vegies need sunshine. The roots of the trees also compete with the vegies for nourishment and the vegies lose that battle. I used to go to the farmers' market in Midland every Sunday but it gradually became a monopoly of just three fruit and vegies sellers and people did not realise this. The fruit and vegies they sold were in fact seconds that they could not sell at the big wholesale fruit and vegetable markets. In fact a lot of the stuff they sold was actually seconds they themselves bought at the wholesale markets. It is handy when you know the people running the stalls and know what they do, an advantage of being an old inhabitant of the area, you know a lot of other families who have lived in the area for several generations. Farmers' Markets are often only farmers' markets in name only, but so many people do not know this or refuse to know it.

OK OK officer I am climbing down from my soap box and I will go quietly and belt up. Besides it is not after 2.00 pm and I must get some lunch.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> To be fair, I don't like a lot of things. I'm a supertaster, otherwise known as a picky eater. Many things, including most cheeses and wines, have a very strong bitter taste. I can't stand the taste of fat and if I eat fried foods, all I can taste is the oil they were fried in. The only fish I can stand are the mild white fish like cod? The others gag me. Went to a Bar Mitzvah once where they served salmon. That first bite just would not stay in my mouth. Good thing I had a napkin. People look down on picky eaters, as if it were a choice. It's not! I'd love to be able to eat more things, I just can't. As I age, I'm finding that I can eat more things though. Maybe some of those taste buds are dying out. I hope so.


That's a shame but you may still enjoy the delights of many of the foods you've avoided. I hope so too. I don't know why but I'll try anything food/drink wise. I love dinner parties for the especially prepared home made meals and in my experience, my friends and acquaintances have been adventurous and creative. There's a 'foodie' epidemic going on in Australia and people have reverted back to using whole foods and home made breads etc., only. Whatever is in season is the go and we're very lucky to have a huge variety of produce which would be found any where in the world.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> You could be describing me. Happy 2015 Wonderful Wombat and to everyone who reads about cheese.
> 
> Nu? No mention of cream cheese?


 :XD:  I do love cream cheese!

And a Happy 2015 to you fine Sloth! Love the new avatar.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> In my life, zinfandel is full-bodied and red. I have no use for the "white" or blush zins because they are much too sweet, but everyone should drink what they like.
> 
> I get a headache next morning if I have more than one glass - but nothing close to a migraine, thankfully. So I limit my intake and get along just fine! I would seriously hate it if I had to give up wine, since I'm not into the hard stuff except for very good gin once in a while. Love beer, too, but don't imbibe very often. I would NOT be satisfied with water in a wine glass!


I love a Gilby's Gin and tonic on a hot summers day. So refreshing. Gilby's Gin was a particular favourite of the Queen Mother as was a good Irish Whisky! Bless her.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Snow is the big news of the day in my neck of the woods. Went out for an early morning walk - with camera, of course. The sun is coming out now and the whole world glitters. This is an amazing day for a transplanted desert rat.


Magical photos Green! Stunning.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> That's a shame but you may still enjoy the delights of many of the foods you've avoided. I hope so too. I don't know why but I'll try anything food/drink wise. I love dinner parties for the especially prepared home made meals and in my experience, my friends and acquaintances have been adventurous and creative. There's a 'foodie' epidemic going on in Australia and people have reverted back to using whole foods and home made breads etc., only. Whatever is in season is the go and we're very lucky to have a huge variety of produce which would be found any where in the world.


I do try things that I couldn't eat in the past. But many are still too strong. In my mid thirties, I found to my delight that I could eat Chinese food, which I couldn't stand when I was younger. Now, I love it! I can manage to swallow broccoli but its still horribly bitter. I can eat spicy hot food, as long as I don't eat the peppers themselves. It truly is a curse. One that two of my sons and one grandson inherited. My oldest son will eat anything that doesn't eat him first.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Do I have to be a COW? Could you come up with a good one, just for me?


BULL

Baffling Us Liberal Ladies???????


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> PP-- snow peas are edible pea pods and they are very popular today. But there are regular pea pods to be shell. I loved when my mother bought fresh peas in season. It was easy to begin to pick thru the bag and not stop till it was finished!!
> 
> Today I don't grow them as they come in way too fast to keep up with the picking of any of the varieties. But I do like fresh green beans which do the same thing for me and are much easier to manage.


This brings back childhood memories of the Green Grocer delivering the weekly fruit and veg on a Friday night. Parcels of peas and beans wrapped in newspaper, beautiful and fragrant fruits in brown paper bags or just sitting free in a wooden crate. The Grocer also delivered on a Friday night. Made me feel safe for some reason. Oh, and hearing the Milkman on his horse and cart at around 3.00 in the morning. Safe.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'll distract you. Mil called this afternoon. A water pipe broke next door and water was flooding her living room. We rushed over, dried and moved her furniture and hubby used his wet vac to keep the water from spreading to the other side of the room. I had to move about a hundred knick knacks, just to move all the tables and curio cabinet. They got the water shut off next door and a carpet guy came and sucked the water out of the carpet. Then he lifted up two corners and stuck fans underneath. She's not too happy about having everything in disarray and having to listen to fans. So, we took her out to dinner and she felt better.


I am laughing at your MIL story. The Carpet Man should have sucked her up, too.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I love a Gilby's Gin and tonic on a hot summers day. So refreshing. Gilby's Gin was a particular favourite of the Queen Mother as was a good Irish Whisky! Bless her.


Never heard for Gilby's but gin and tonic is my favorite. I like Sapphire gin the best. Smooth.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Sorry, I just realised that this post duplicated itself, I must have clicked on send twice, so I have deleted it. I am a SOW.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Here's a very interesting video of how cherries are harvested. It's cool!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Most fruit and vegetables are now harvested by mechanical harvesters. Grape growers use a mechanical harvester, banana growers do the same. Have you seen how they pick strawberries. The days of unskilled workers spending back breaking hours in the fields are long gone. Cereal crops are no longer harvested by serfs with scythes but by combine harvesters, even the timber growers use mechanical tree fellers instead of men with saws.

No, a lot of farmers' markets are 'farmers' markets' in name only. Some produce is actually seconds purchased from the large wholesale fruit and vegie markets.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm just commenting on Zabar's, which is still here and thriving, though it doesn't limit itself to cheeses. When you walk into the main entrance, however, the first place you come to is the cheese section, very large and with a huge selection.
> 
> Then there are smoked fish; meats, both raw and pre-prepared; baked goods, at reasonable prices; and a huge section of coffees, in the bean, and teas, by the ounce. There are also whatever you need for these items, like coffee filters and tea infusers. And then there is upstairs, where you can buy anything from a $1 wooden spoon to whatever $500 machine you need to take over your kitchen chores.


I would love to see that store. Will go to their website in consolation.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> I've had success with large pot or tall raised bed with no steps or grade to climb up. They got my strawberries too and the worst part is they'd just take a bite out of each one.


You could be like my ex. He went to a great deal of trouble to build a rabbit proof fence around the vegie plot, dug it deep into the earth to prevent them digging under it. Guess what the rabbits still ate the vegies. He had not seen the rabbit burrow in the middle of his big vegie plot. Their burrows can extend a long way underground. The Agriculture Protection Board wanted to exterminate them in the area, but this involved all the people living on the land in the area and unfortunately some people did not see the problem the rabbits caused, they did not grow their own fruit and vegies. The APB wanted to catch several rabbits in order to test them prior to eradicating them. They only needed 10 rabbits, six an absolute minimum. No problem, come home at night and drive down the drive and you could see the rabbits scattering in every direction. The APB boys came out several nights in a row and yes, not a single rabbit to be seen on those nights. ?????


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Hmm, I didn't see anyone here describing D&P as a "cult". That is one of your favorite words it seems.
> You really do like to slap elderly women around, don't you? It certainly doesn't look good on you. It is known that with age comes wisdom. I guess you really are a young heifer or the wisdom just missed you all together.
> Then again, I'm just an AOLW (Amazingly Outstanding Liberal Woman) voicing her opinion.


 :XD: :thumbup:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I saw it. I can understand why your post turned some people off. To say that the two NY cops killed in their car had brought it on themselves was kind of harsh, and in this case untrue, since the shooter was a lunatic.


I mean no disrespect with regard to your post PP but the word 'lunatic' just sent me into a side-splitting gale of laughter! :XD:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I doubt that this is what you actually see. You've picked up the language of various Republican leaders, even though you deny being a Repub.
> 
> That has more to do with what those people want you to believe that what progressives do and want.
> 
> ...


Sorry you're feeling so down PP. I hope the blues lift very soon for you.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I have become Persona non grata on other threads, too. So what's new?
> 
> What is the thread Connections about? They have been flourishing for a long time. When I lurk, I cannot figure them out.


Being a persona non grata demonstrates one's importance in the scheme of things. When people turn their backs, you've done something worthwhile IMO.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I do try things that I couldn't eat in the past. But many are still too strong. In my mid thirties, I found to my delight that I could eat Chinese food, which I couldn't stand when I was younger. Now, I love it! I can manage to swallow broccoli but its still horribly bitter. I can eat spicy hot food, as long as I don't eat the peppers themselves. It truly is a curse. One that two of my sons and one grandson inherited. My oldest son will eat anything that doesn't eat him first.


 :XD: Loved the last sentence! I adore broccoli and what I do is steam several florets with several Brussels sprouts until they're al dente. Then I place them in a bowl, add extra virgin olive oil, salt and pepper and crushed garlic. Toss it all around and it is truly divine!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I am laughing at your MIL story. The Carpet Man should have sucked her up, too.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Never heard for Gilby's but gin and tonic is my favorite. I like Sapphire gin the best. Smooth.


Must try it.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'll distract you. Mil called this afternoon. A water pipe broke next door and water was flooding her living room. We rushed over, dried and moved her furniture and hubby used his wet vac to keep the water from spreading to the other side of the room. I had to move about a hundred knick knacks, just to move all the tables and curio cabinet. They got the water shut off next door and a carpet guy came and sucked the water out of the carpet. Then he lifted up two corners and stuck fans underneath. She's not too happy about having everything in disarray and having to listen to fans. So, we took her out to dinner and she felt better.


I hope your MIL's mini flood has been sorted and the carpets dried and order restored. Older people do not like having their routine disturbed. They do not welcome strangers trampling all over their house and moving things.

It reminds me of when I had a mini flood several years ago. I woke up on Saturday morning and saw a river running down my driveway. I initially thought the self timer on the front hose had not turned the hose off the night before, then sanity clicked in and I realised that my little hose and sprinkler could not possible result in the river that was running down my drive, yes it was a river. The reticulation pipe that runs from the bore on the site of old race course about 200 metres from my house to the sport ground about 500 metres down the road had burst. It had burst right under my my driveway. The pipeline was installed in the mid 1960s and is old and brittle and constantly rupturing. Thank heavens the drive runs down the side of the house and not to the house as in many newer houses. There is also a slight slope from the front of the block to the back and the river ran all the way to the back of the half acre where it formed a lake. Our house is also slightly elevated on jarrah stumps, only about 8 inches at the front but 3 ft at the back, this was necessary to get level flooring. Any water would have run under the house and not through it.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: Loved the last sentence! I adore broccoli and what I do is steam several florets with several Brussels sprouts until they're al dente. Then I place them in a bowl, add extra virgin olive oil, salt and pepper and crushed garlic. Toss it all around and it is truly divine!


I really went of broccoli when my ex started growing his own, no pesticides used. You have heard the question 'how many angels can you count dancing on the head of a pin?' well my question is 'how many wrigglies can you count on the bead of a broccoli?' Boy or boy, talk about difficulty in trying to get rid of them before cooking. No matter how many times I blanched the heads of broccoli in hot water, hot water with added vinegar, soaked the heads in water, there always seemed to be some remaining wrigglies left. I have blanched the same head in up to six changes of water and with each change of water I was still finding those wrigglies there.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sorry. I did not mean to include ute4kp.



Poor Purl said:


> This doesn't sound like ute4kp; it sounds a lot like KPG.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I didn't forget. Aren't there public plots for gardens anywhere? I know NY real estate is different but it's available in other places. How about a window box? I can just imagine sweet peas vining down the wall.



Poor Purl said:


> You seem to have forgotten that "outside" is a spot in the air 80 feet above ground.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My grandmother used to insist we plant more because the bunnies are hungry too. Too kind, in my opinion as the one weeding and watering the garden.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I've raised beds, but they're only 10" tall. The birds get my strawberries before the rabbits can get to them. Next spring we're going to build a frame and put netting around them. Of course, that's probably just saving them for the rabbits. And to think, I used to LIKE bunny rabbits.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No dumb bunnies there. Ta da. You can't fool Mother Nature.



EveMCooke said:


> You could be like my ex. He went to a great deal of trouble to build a rabbit proof fence around the vegie plot, dug it deep into the earth to prevent them digging under it. Guess what the rabbits still ate the vegies. He had not seen the rabbit burrow in the middle of his big vegie plot. Their burrows can extend a long way underground. The Agriculture Protection Board wanted to exterminate them in the area, but this involved all the people living on the land in the area and unfortunately some people did not see the problem the rabbits caused, they did not grow their own fruit and vegies. The APB wanted to catch several rabbits in order to test them prior to eradicating them. They only needed 10 rabbits, six an absolute minimum. No problem, come home at night and drive down the drive and you could see the rabbits scattering in every direction. The APB boys came out several nights in a row and yes, not a single rabbit to be seen on those nights. ?????


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> No, unfortunately my ex sold the property, not as a whole but as individual blocks. It was originally thirty acres plus the use of a gazetted but unmade road on four titles, he split one title into two and sold the five titles as individual lots. The orchard does not exist any more either as the people who bought the land from us, or who subsequently bought the land from the people who bought the land from us, were not interested in the hard work that goes into growing fruit. The satsuma plum trees that were growing next to the new house we built on the property were a great little money earner. Sadly, there are now two houses where the satsumas once grew. We sold all our fruit from the door, plus the jams, sauces and preserves I made, together with our eggs and home grown vegies. Sadly the people who now live on the property do not sell anything, they probably do not grow their own vegies either.
> 
> Why did my ex sell the farm, a place my son still remembers and misses? M O N E Y, he said he only bought the property because he knew he could make money on it. He never purchased it to make it a home, not a house where we could live but a home; there is a big difference. He also had to move. He got up everyone's nose, he rubbed everyone up the wrong way. He always had to be the Mr Big. Look at me I am more intelligent than you are, I have a better education than you do, I know these thing, you do not. Initially people thought he was great, he was a very good looking and very fit man and he seemed to go out of his way to help people, but then people realised he was a Jekyll and Hyde. He really only helped others if he thought he could get something in return, especially monetary reward and the 'isn't he great' type of reward. He became isolated in that community so he would up stakes and move to another location where people did not know him. He was not run out of the community, tarred and feathered, but he was isolated. This isolation was extended to us, his wife and child, although I had a lot of friends he did not know about.
> 
> ...


From the way you write, it is very clear why your ex is your ex. I would bet that it wasn't his idea to sell your fruit. He seemed to be looking for a quick payout, not what you can earn selling fruit and jam from your door.

But I do envy you - it would be lovely to have fruit trees growing outside my window, even if we never got to eat the fruit.

One important question: What are lemonade trees? I had no idea that lemonade grew that way.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I mean no disrespect with regard to your post PP but the word 'lunatic' just sent me into a side-splitting gale of laughter! :XD:


But he was. It is not a laughing matter. Came straight out of the loony bin and killed his girlfriend somewhere down south, then came up north to take care of New York's Finest.

Aren't we fortunate in this country to have such a large supply of weapons that crazy people can have as many as they want?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I didn't forget. Aren't there public plots for gardens anywhere? I know NY real estate is different but it's available in other places. How about a window box? I can just imagine sweet peas vining down the wall.


There are some blocks that have gardens, but before they even open, all the plots are spoken for. They've even taken over some land in a public park.

I have tried growing basil and parsley in a window box, and attracted the most amazing bugs. They survived all attempts to get rid of them.

I suppose I could ask my upstairs neighbors whether we could run ropes from our window to theirs, for the sake of the vines. They're very agreeable people. But they'd probably get to our peas before we do.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> My grandmother used to insist we plant more because the bunnies are hungry too. Too kind, in my opinion as the one weeding and watering the garden.


Your grandmother sounds sweet. But in helping bunnies to survive, she's only making them dependent on her, and they'll never bother to ....sorry, I got carried away and began to think I was solow.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> But he was. It is not a laughing matter. Came straight out of the loony bin and killed his girlfriend somewhere down south, then came up north to take care of New York's Finest.
> 
> Aren't we fortunate in this country to have such a large supply of weapons that crazy people can have as many as they want?


This is a 'right' in which I personally see no value. A radical indeed.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> There are some blocks that have gardens, but before they even open, all the plots are spoken for. They've even taken over some land in a public park.
> 
> I have tried growing basil and parsley in a window box, and attracted the most amazing bugs. They survived all attempts to get rid of them.
> 
> I suppose I could ask my upstairs neighbors whether we could run ropes from our window to theirs, for the sake of the vines. They're very agreeable people. But they'd probably get to our peas before we do.


Just think of the people upstairs as agreeable bunnies and plant more. Hope it works.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

damemary said:


> I've had success with large pot or tall raised bed with no steps or grade to climb up. They got my strawberries too and the worst part is they'd just take a bite out of each one.


Two things rabbit proof the garden. One is chicken wire sunk about 6" below grade. It only has to be about 12" above grade. Easy to install. Firmer wire works with small openings, but more expensive. The second is blood. You can buy bags of blood meal and spread it around the plants but this has to be redone as rain will soak it into the soil and it then becomes ineffective. It is a very quick and immediate solution, but the rabbit fence is long term once it is done.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

There was no stopping her sweetness, no bounds indeed. She fed anyone who was hungry and did so without taking someone's dignity away from them. Dependence had no meaning to her.

Ps. You can only be you.



Poor Purl said:


> Your grandmother sounds sweet. But in helping bunnies to survive, she's only making them dependent on her, and they'll never bother to ....sorry, I got carried away and began to think I was solow.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> From the way you write, it is very clear why your ex is your ex. I would bet that it wasn't his idea to sell your fruit. He seemed to be looking for a quick payout, not what you can earn selling fruit and jam from your door.
> 
> But I do envy you - it would be lovely to have fruit trees growing outside my window, even if we never got to eat the fruit.
> 
> One important question: What are lemonade trees? I had no idea that lemonade grew that way.


Best description comes from Wikipedia
The lemonade fruit is a hybrid citrus fruit found in Australia and New Zealand. A cross between a navel orange and a lemon, it was first cultivated in the 1980s and grows in subtropical regions of the two countries, notably Queensland in Australia and Northland in New Zealand. The fruit has a similar appearance to limes, but yellows as it ripens. The fruit is segmented, and can be eaten readily; its low-acid content gives it a sweet taste similar to the orange, but with a flavour not unlike a mild lemon.

The tree is smaller than a lemon or orange tree.

It was his idea to sell the fruit, it was part of the attraction of the property. It was situated on the highway between Albany and Perth with lots of passing traffic. We made a lot of money. We sold apricots for 10 cents a lb and our best days takings for the apricots was $116.00, that is a lot of apricots. He had just quit his job as a teacher, yep you guessed it, he did not get on with his fellow teachers, he thought he knew more than the headmaster. He had decided he was not going to get another job and he didnt. It was just before Christmas 1977 and when I left him in April 1990 the only paid employment he had since the time he quit teaching was mowing lawns a couple of days a fortnight and he did not start that until mid1985. Hands up the muggins who did go to work, - picture of me waving my hand in the air like a lunatic.

We had plenty of fresh fruit to eat, almost all year round, and in the off season we had the fruit that I had bottled. We also had plenty of fresh vegies all the time, plus own own eggs from our own chooks, our own milk from Petal my milking cow and we even ran a few killers for our own meat. Sheep not steers because it is easy to kill, skin and butcher a sheep, a steer is more difficult to slaughter and you have to know your meat in order to butcher a steer and label the cuts correctly. We could have sent a steer down to Faulkner's abattoirs but he had the reputation of taking your good steer and giving you the carcass of an old scrubber in return, so we just sent our steers to market.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think in most cases, there's precious little room for discussion on either side. And that saddens me.
> 
> I don't see narcissism as being promoted by neo con's. I've always seen it as a movement by progressives. The whole "I'm OK, you're OK", " if it feels good, do it" movement, encouraged people to think only of themselves and discouraged moral judgment of bad behaviors. It was around the same time when so many people developed an entitlement mentality and more and more, were pushing socialistic ideologies. I've never considered how capitalism created narcissism, but I can see how it does to a degree. The "I'm entitled to everything" mentality. But I still believe that the primary causation was the breakdown in mores.


I hope you read the article on Narcissism that I sent. In brief it explains a lot. And it is a tactic of Capitalism which thrives on divide and conquer. Individualism has always been part of the mythology of this country. However, it was always bogus. Not one single person ever survived alone. Every hero always had/has back up support. The Lone Ranger had Tonto, racist as that was. The Indian was his scout and savior on many occasions. That was one of the big mass marketing ploys of ideology of my youth. We have modern versions of the same dynamic.

Self-focus is a core value promoted because it weakens people. Community is trashed. There was a time when community was really important. A strong community was impossible to infiltrate or destroy. A few yrs ago there was an attempt by the Neo-nazis to create divisiveness in Billings, Montana on the basis of anti-semitism. The community rallied round together and made it impossible for these skinhead types to gain a foot hold. There was a very good documentary made on this situation. It was called Not In Our Town. Very good organizing tool which is what we did in my community. Today politicians talk only about the individual person. There is no value in community and people who talk about the group in any way are attacked as socialists. Well what is the real danger of socialism? It values the group, it sees people as part of a group for survival. It understands that the power of people is in co-ordinated group activity. Unions were called a socialist plot decades ago. Why? Because there is power in numbers and that is the real power of the people.

Narcissism is the extreme end of the spectrum of personal isolation. It is almost solipsistic (sp??) which is the next set in complete isolation of the person. It did not come out progressive thinking.

I think KFN you need to learn more about these concepts and history. And I think you need to read more carefully, at least my comments as you misrepresent them to make your point. You are entitled to your opinion, but it should be based on some piece of real information, not some prejudicial mantra that has been fed from a pulpit. Follow your own point and study. Your comment is very contradictory when it claims self-centeredness in progressive circles and then blames socialism which is all about creating a group understanding.

And feeling good about oneself is not narcissism in itself. It is feeling good about oneself as the only thing that is important that is the problem. It is the lack of balance betw a sense of self-worth and empathy with others. Narcissism lacks empathy and, further does not accept empathy as a desired social value.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I saw it. I can understand why your post turned some people off. To say that the two NY cops killed in their car had brought it on themselves was kind of harsh, and in this case untrue, since the shooter was a lunatic.


It may have been a strong statement but it galls me that people have this unquestioning support for police but blame the victims of their racism. I was not the only one who commented on police violence as you saw in the commentary I copied here. 
The person who shot the cops seems unbalanced--certainly not clear thinking from our point of view. But we know nothing about him really.

What we do know is that police violence against people of color is going to arouse the rage in many. Someone unbalanced can take this rage to an extreme and go off on his own in this suicidal way. The news this a.m. reported 2 other assaults on police. There was also a protest against a police station by about 100 people who attempted to take over the station. 25 were arrested and many chemically sprayed. I think we are seeing a rising up of the people against the violence of the police.

The public is forced to support the police for those 2 killed in their vehicle. But you have to see the situation within a larger context. The cops do. They immediately blames protesters at large and called for a prohibition of protests. The cops are not rallying in simply in support of these 2 guys; they are using it to impose increased repression of democratic rights of the people. The people are being told there is something wrong with them if they don't have sympathy. Well, my comment on that other forum said that sympathy was questionable as they chose to take a job that at core sees the majority of the public as the enemy.

Please read the link on the history of the police in this country. While focusing mainly on Chicago, it reflects a national history.

Personally, I felt my comment on that forum, filled with self-righteousness, was pretty benign.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I hope your MIL's mini flood has been sorted and the carpets dried and order restored. Older people do not like having their routine disturbed. They do not welcome strangers trampling all over their house and moving things.
> 
> It reminds me of when I had a mini flood several years ago. I woke up on Saturday morning and saw a river running down my driveway. I initially thought the self timer on the front hose had not turned the hose off the night before, then sanity clicked in and I realised that my little hose and sprinkler could not possible result in the river that was running down my drive, yes it was a river. The reticulation pipe that runs from the bore on the site of old race course about 200 metres from my house to the sport ground about 500 metres down the road had burst. It had burst right under my my driveway. The pipeline was installed in the mid 1960s and is old and brittle and constantly rupturing. Thank heavens the drive runs down the side of the house and not to the house as in many newer houses. There is also a slight slope from the front of the block to the back and the river ran all the way to the back of the half acre where it formed a lake. Our house is also slightly elevated on jarrah stumps, only about 8 inches at the front but 3 ft at the back, this was necessary to get level flooring. Any water would have run under the house and not through it.


That kind of pole construction is not possible in northern, colder climates. It would be impossible to weatherize such a foundation adequately. Older bungalows were build that way but were mainly done for summer rentals or weekend getaways. The problem in the house may have been that the foundation was not high enough off grade.

Sounds like that old pipe was like orangeburg tile which was very commonly used in the 1960-70's in the US. Turned out it had about a 20 yr life span before it deteriorated. Tree roots could also penetrate the pipe causing water problems in basements. Modern advances in technology without meaningful testing. Capitalism at its best (ugh).


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I have to concur. A beautiful cabernet sauvignong accompanying a Fillet Mignon!


Bliss.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Bliss.


Well would need 2 bottles of wine when we get together. White is all I drink, a nice dry, mellow wine--organic or sustainably grown grapes. I have found a number of S. African wines very nice and inexpensive. And we have a growing number of American organic wines that are quite good. I love a Chenin blanc or chardonnay.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

It is so sad that people have no respect for nature and what it can produce for our betterment. When money is the main motive, all other values get buried or destroyed. Your story, EveMCooke, is such a good case in point. You lived in a relationship with opposing values--Self-serving capitalist narcissism vs empathetic connection to nature and community and combining personal enjoyment with growing healthy food and sharing it with others. 

Have often said there are 2 themes that run thru modern history: the materialistic/mechanistic theme vs a humanistic/nature based value system. The difference in these value systems is being exploited today to disempower people by dividing them and mocking and trashing the humanistic and environmental system of thinking. 

Eve--your land sounds like it was heaven. Lots of work, but even more satisfaction.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> [/URL]


Funny pic!


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Here is an interesting little tidbit: Woodie Guthrie's New Year's Resolution list, 1942

http://nyceducator.com/2013/12/new-years-resolutions.html?utm_source=digg&utm_medium=email

I especially like the last one


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> BULL
> 
> Baffling Us Liberal Ladies???????


I was thinking...something a little less bovine.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I am laughing at your MIL story. The Carpet Man should have sucked her up, too.


I KNOW that she wanted to come and stay with us, but we have the perfect excuse. Two of our grandsons are coming this morning and staying overnight. We've only one guest room.  Whew!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Most fruit and vegetables are now harvested by mechanical harvesters. Grape growers use a mechanical harvester, banana growers do the same. Have you seen how they pick strawberries. The days of unskilled workers spending back breaking hours in the fields are long gone. Cereal crops are no longer harvested by serfs with scythes but by combine harvesters, even the timber growers use mechanical tree fellers instead of men with saws.
> 
> No, a lot of farmers' markets are 'farmers' markets' in name only. Some produce is actually seconds purchased from the large wholesale fruit and vegie markets.


A lot of ours comes from what they call "hobby farms". City people who've bought several acres of land in the country, then supplement their income by growing food and selling it at the farmer's market. I actually know one woman who's done this. In addition, she dehydrates veggies and makes dried soup mixes and other things, which she sells both at the farmer's markets and craft shows.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> You could be like my ex. He went to a great deal of trouble to build a rabbit proof fence around the vegie plot, dug it deep into the earth to prevent them digging under it. Guess what the rabbits still ate the vegies. He had not seen the rabbit burrow in the middle of his big vegie plot. Their burrows can extend a long way underground. The Agriculture Protection Board wanted to exterminate them in the area, but this involved all the people living on the land in the area and unfortunately some people did not see the problem the rabbits caused, they did not grow their own fruit and vegies. The APB wanted to catch several rabbits in order to test them prior to eradicating them. They only needed 10 rabbits, six an absolute minimum. No problem, come home at night and drive down the drive and you could see the rabbits scattering in every direction. The APB boys came out several nights in a row and yes, not a single rabbit to be seen on those nights. ?????


We could have easily given them six rabbits, until last summer. People started spotting a coyote in our neighborhood, in the wee hours of the mornings. Since then, I've only seen one rabbit. They're so awful! Last winter they even ate the bark off of one of our young apple trees. :evil:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: Loved the last sentence! I adore broccoli and what I do is steam several florets with several Brussels sprouts until they're al dente. Then I place them in a bowl, add extra virgin olive oil, salt and pepper and crushed garlic. Toss it all around and it is truly divine!


When my daughter was very little, we discovered at a Chinese restaurant that she LOVED little trees (broccoli). So I always bought it and even grew it, for her. But she eats it raw, she didn't like it cooked.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I hope your MIL's mini flood has been sorted and the carpets dried and order restored. Older people do not like having their routine disturbed. They do not welcome strangers trampling all over their house and moving things.
> 
> It reminds me of when I had a mini flood several years ago. I woke up on Saturday morning and saw a river running down my driveway. I initially thought the self timer on the front hose had not turned the hose off the night before, then sanity clicked in and I realised that my little hose and sprinkler could not possible result in the river that was running down my drive, yes it was a river. The reticulation pipe that runs from the bore on the site of old race course about 200 metres from my house to the sport ground about 500 metres down the road had burst. It had burst right under my my driveway. The pipeline was installed in the mid 1960s and is old and brittle and constantly rupturing. Thank heavens the drive runs down the side of the house and not to the house as in many newer houses. There is also a slight slope from the front of the block to the back and the river ran all the way to the back of the half acre where it formed a lake. Our house is also slightly elevated on jarrah stumps, only about 8 inches at the front but 3 ft at the back, this was necessary to get level flooring. Any water would have run under the house and not through it.


Sounds like you got lucky. When we lived in St Louis, following lots of rain the sewer backed up in our basement. They did not have separated rain sewers, so we had raw sewage flowing into our basement. It was so awful! I wanted to move immediately after but apparently it happened all over. Someone gave us a plug for the sewer hole, which was illegal. But I didn't care! We used it anyway. I don't know how people live with that. We had a finished basement and our sons bedroom was down there. We had to throw away everything we couldn't carry up the stairs. We didn't have insurance coverage for sewer backups. Who would have thought you'd need it? Since then, everywhere we've lived, we've added that rider to our policy. Now we live on a hill and have a sump pump. We've separated sewers but we still have coverage for sewer back up, just in case.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I really went of broccoli when my ex started growing his own, no pesticides used. You have heard the question 'how many angels can you count dancing on the head of a pin?' well my question is 'how many wrigglies can you count on the bead of a broccoli?' Boy or boy, talk about difficulty in trying to get rid of them before cooking. No matter how many times I blanched the heads of broccoli in hot water, hot water with added vinegar, soaked the heads in water, there always seemed to be some remaining wrigglies left. I have blanched the same head in up to six changes of water and with each change of water I was still finding those wrigglies there.


Ewww! Yuck! I never had anything crawling on my broccoli. Thank heavens.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> We could have easily given them six rabbits, until last summer. People started spotting a coyote in our neighborhood, in the wee hours of the mornings. Since then, I've only seen one rabbit. They're so awful! Last winter they even ate the bark off of one of our young apple trees. :evil:


Have you seen the destruction that rabbits have caused to the Australian farmland. Have you heard of the Rabbit Proof Fene that was built in Australia. We had hundreds of rabbits on the 9 acres we lived on at the time, and the neighbouring properties were infested. They are a big problem in Australia.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> You could be like my ex. He went to a great deal of trouble to build a rabbit proof fence around the vegie plot, dug it deep into the earth to prevent them digging under it. Guess what the rabbits still ate the vegies. He had not seen the rabbit burrow in the middle of his big vegie plot. Their burrows can extend a long way underground. The Agriculture Protection Board wanted to exterminate them in the area, but this involved all the people living on the land in the area and unfortunately some people did not see the problem the rabbits caused, they did not grow their own fruit and vegies. The APB wanted to catch several rabbits in order to test them prior to eradicating them. They only needed 10 rabbits, six an absolute minimum. No problem, come home at night and drive down the drive and you could see the rabbits scattering in every direction. The APB boys came out several nights in a row and yes, not a single rabbit to be seen on those nights. ?????


Peter Rabbit always wins at the end even tho he is a bit frazzled.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Being a persona non grata demonstrates one's importance in the scheme of things. When people turn their backs, you've done something worthwhile IMO.


Hmm. So you are the half-filled glass type. What do you fill the glass with?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Have you seen the destruction that rabbits have caused to the Australian farmland. Have you heard of the Rabbit Proof Fene that was built in Australia. We had hundreds of rabbits on the 9 acres we lived on at the time, and the neighbouring properties were infested. They are a big problem in Australia.


I think I read the book. Rabbit Proof Fence.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

tamarque said:


> Two things rabbit proof the garden. One is chicken wire sunk about 6" below grade. It only has to be about 12" above grade. Easy to install. Firmer wire works with small openings, but more expensive. The second is blood. You can buy bags of blood meal and spread it around the plants but this has to be redone as rain will soak it into the soil and it then becomes ineffective. It is a very quick and immediate solution, but the rabbit fence is long term once it is done.


You always have the answer to everything. How do you do it?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> There was no stopping her sweetness, no bounds indeed. She fed anyone who was hungry and did so without taking someone's dignity away from them. Dependence had no meaning to her.
> 
> Ps. You can only be you.


What a wonderful grandmother. I had only one, and she died when I was about four, so though I remember her as being affectionate, I don't remember her in other ways. (I never knew my maternal grandmother. She died when mom was 3, leaving behind a 7-year-old boy, a 3-month-old baby, and my mom.)

PS. I know I could never be solow, thank whatever gods there are.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Best description comes from Wikipedia
> The lemonade fruit is a hybrid citrus fruit found in Australia and New Zealand. A cross between a navel orange and a lemon, it was first cultivated in the 1980s and grows in subtropical regions of the two countries, notably Queensland in Australia and Northland in New Zealand. The fruit has a similar appearance to limes, but yellows as it ripens. The fruit is segmented, and can be eaten readily; its low-acid content gives it a sweet taste similar to the orange, but with a flavour not unlike a mild lemon.
> 
> The tree is smaller than a lemon or orange tree.
> ...


It doesn't pay to play the smart aleck with you. I assumed "lemonade" was a typo, so never even tried to look it up. But, as usual, you were correct.

You had a very rural life, apparently. For some reason, I wasn't expecting that, maybe owing to my urban snobbishness. Killing your own sheep for food is a kind of experience I will never have. I don't know whether I would want to, but it's so much more connected to real life than going into a store and buying plastic-wrapped styrofoam trays of unrecognizable meat.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> It may have been a strong statement but it galls me that people have this unquestioning support for police but blame the victims of their racism. I was not the only one who commented on police violence as you saw in the commentary I copied here.
> The person who shot the cops seems unbalanced--certainly not clear thinking from our point of view. But we know nothing about him really.
> 
> What we do know is that police violence against people of color is going to arouse the rage in many. Someone unbalanced can take this rage to an extreme and go off on his own in this suicidal way. The news this a.m. reported 2 other assaults on police. There was also a protest against a police station by about 100 people who attempted to take over the station. 25 were arrested and many chemically sprayed. I think we are seeing a rising up of the people against the violence of the police.
> ...


It galls me, too, as if police were entitled to bad behavior because the job they chose is more dangerous than most. But the job makes them more dangerous, too. Joeysomma challenged you to look up how many innocent or unarmed (black? I don't recall) people were killed by police over the years, so I did that. What I found was that it certainly wasn't one every day, but there was a large-enough list just for 2014 to get my anger up.

I only thought that on that particular thread, where sympathies were clearly with police who had been killed, it would have been diplomatic not to turn it into an argument.

But here's food for thought, and there are more websites like it:
http://gawker.com/unarmed-people-of-color-killed-by-police-1999-2014-1666672349

And then there's this, from USA Today, hardly a standard-bearer of progressive opinion: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/14/police-killings-data/14060357/


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Here is an interesting little tidbit: Woodie Guthrie's New Year's Resolution list, 1942
> 
> http://nyceducator.com/2013/12/new-years-resolutions.html?utm_source=digg&utm_medium=email
> 
> I especially like the last one


Yes, that last one is a good one.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I was thinking...something a little less bovine.


CROW (Conservative Ruthless Older Woman)?


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

tamarque said:


> I dont know about peas specifically, but much of agribiz works in a mechanized way under contract. The chicken industry here is absolutely horrific in the way chickens are given 1 sf of space to live. They are mechanically 'harvested' and w/o regard to being alive or not, are thrown into the processors that begin to clean and cut them. Those harvesting pieces of equipment are very expensive to it makes sense under a capitalist system to have them owned by a corporation that contracts out the growing and harvesting. Smaller farmers and the smaller organic farmers all do planting and harvesting by hand still. At the farmer's markets the peas are not shelled. Brands like Cascade which is labelled Organic is owned by Kellogs (as in Kellogs Cornflakes) and I would imagine those peas are grown on large scale farms or small farms that are collectively contracted or some similar arrangement.
> 
> Your barter system with all your fruit sounds great.


The one upside of mass harvesting is that the plant that freezes and/or cans whatever's being harvested are usually right nearby so the processed whatever loses less of its nutritional value than produce that starts out fresh and has to be shipped across the country and some of which may be warehoused for months does.

The only reliable way to get produce that is fully nutritious is to grow your own. Same goes for chickens and the degree of humane treatment they get. Tamarque's barter deal sounds great. I'd love to do that but have nowhere to putin an kind of garden, and as far as I can tell no one near me is growing anything.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> The one upside of mass harvesting is that the plant that freezes and/or cans whatever's being harvested are usually right nearby so the processed whatever loses less of its nutritional value than produce that starts out fresh and has to be shipped across the country and some of which may be warehoused for months does.
> 
> The only reliable way to get produce that is fully nutritious is to grow your own. Same goes for chickens and the degree of humane treatment they get. Tamarque's barter deal sounds great. I'd love to do that but have nowhere to putin an kind of garden, and as far as I can tell no one near me is growing anything.


Could there be a Craigslist for something like this?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DORK

Determined Old Republican Kvetchers


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> DORK
> 
> Determined Old Republican Kvetchers


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> It galls me, too, as if police were entitled to bad behavior because the job they chose is more dangerous than most. But the job makes them more dangerous, too. Joeysomma challenged you to look up how many innocent or unarmed (black? I don't recall) people were killed by police over the years, so I did that. What I found was that it certainly wasn't one every day, but there was a large-enough list just for 2014 to get my anger up.
> 
> I only thought that on that particular thread, where sympathies were clearly with police who had been killed, it would have been diplomatic not to turn it into an argument.
> 
> ...


Remember, too, that when a law enforcement officer is injured or killed, no effort is spared in hunting down the guilty party and there is no protracted wait to see if the grand jury will indict. Providing, of course, that the suspect survives.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Remember, too, that when a law enforcement officer is injured or killed, no effort is spared in hunting down the guilty party and there is no protracted wait to see if the grand jury will indict. Providing, of course, that the suspect survives.


My favorite is when the news reports that the cop killer, or mass killer turned the gun on himself. Sure!!!!!!!


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

tamarque said:


> How many know that policing began as vigilant type groups/people who were hired to track down runaway slaves. Sorry to say that mentality has not changed in 300 yrs.


I'm only addressing this part of your longer post. It seems you are failing to distinguish between Slave Patrols, sometimes called "paddy rollers" by slaves, and whose duties were to enforce discipline on black slaves in pre-Civil War southern states, and police organizations created to perform many more duties than the paddy rollers. Some municipal police forces can trace their history back to the early 17th century.

Yes, I realize police forces aided slave patrols. And, yes, I'm well aware of the fact that African-Americans are stopped by police merely because they were "driving being black" and are often treated with suspicion and even followed around in various retail establishments.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I saw it. I can understand why your post turned some people off. To say that the two NY cops killed in their car had brought it on themselves was kind of harsh, and in this case untrue, since the shooter was a lunatic.


Being somewhat pessimist about certain things, I see the shooting of the two NYC police officers as the beginning of open season on killing police officers.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Best description comes from Wikipedia
> The lemonade fruit is a hybrid citrus fruit found in Australia and New Zealand. A cross between a navel orange and a lemon, it was first cultivated in the 1980s and grows in subtropical regions of the two countries, notably Queensland in Australia and Northland in New Zealand. The fruit has a similar appearance to limes, but yellows as it ripens. The fruit is segmented, and can be eaten readily; its low-acid content gives it a sweet taste similar to the orange, but with a flavour not unlike a mild lemon.


 Now you've got me wanting some lemonade fruit. :-D :thumbup:


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: Loved the last sentence! I adore broccoli and what I do is steam several florets with several Brussels sprouts until they're al dente. Then I place them in a bowl, add extra virgin olive oil, salt and pepper and crushed garlic. Toss it all around and it is truly divine!


I take broccoli and potatoes, cooked as you like them, then coated with pesto sauce and topped with some parmesan cheese. A little time under the broiler and you've got something I think is delicious.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Two things rabbit proof the garden. One is chicken wire sunk about 6" below grade. It only has to be about 12" above grade. Easy to install. Firmer wire works with small openings, but more expensive. The second is blood. You can buy bags of blood meal and spread it around the plants but this has to be redone as rain will soak it into the soil and it then becomes ineffective. It is a very quick and immediate solution, but the rabbit fence is long term once it is done.


I used blood meal one summer and the neighbors were asking me where the body was buried. It worked, but it really had a stench to it.
I have put up the chicken wire for the last 2 years and it really does work.
The back of the garden is open and planted with perennials that attract hummingbirds and butterflies. Also sunflowers for the birds.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

SQM said:


> You always have the answer to everything. How do you do it?


I have a lot of problems and interests and constantly research things. Sometimes what I learn is helpful to others.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I take broccoli and potatoes, cooked as you like them, then coated with pesto sauce and topped with some parmesan cheese. A little time under the broiler and you've got something I think is delicious.


Sounds like a dinner for me. I am even simpler as I do it all in one pot.

This year I started doing wild fermentation and was stunned as how easy it is and so healthy. Thru a lot of the late broccoli buds into a couple of the fermenting jars. Doesn't even use any electricity or cooking fuel.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It galls me, too, as if police were entitled to bad behavior because the job they chose is more dangerous than most. But the job makes them more dangerous, too. Joeysomma challenged you to look up how many innocent or unarmed (black? I don't recall) people were killed by police over the years, so I did that. What I found was that it certainly wasn't one every day, but there was a large-enough list just for 2014 to get my anger up.
> 
> I only thought that on that particular thread, where sympathies were clearly with police who had been killed, it would have been diplomatic not to turn it into an argument.
> 
> ...


There are many more killings that are not listed here. For example a young black woman had car problems and went to knock on a door for help. The man inside got his rifle and killed her. I don't believe he even opened the door. I also don't see the murder of Oscar Grant on the list (you might recall the film Fruitvale Station which documented that murder). I tend to trust stats that come from the ACLU or NAACP or other liberal/progressive groups with an interest in tracking these kinds of killings. And those stats conservatively state 1killing every 28 hours of a person of color.

Yet when a white male is parading around the streets with an assault weapon the people won't even get our of their car, nor do they raise their voice or gun at this man. (yes, documented case this summer). And what about that jerk Clive Bundy and his libertarian boys that waged a stand off with the FBI and local police last summer? spring? Those guys were whooping up their power to get the police to back down and leave. Not a single gunshot. Not a single arrest.

It is interesting to note that when cops or white people are afraid of black people it is okay for them to shoot and kill. But if a person of color tries to leave the scene out of fear of the cops or white people, they are suspect and can and do get shot. Racism is always one sided as it is a power relationship and people of color do not hold the power in this country.

I do understand your reservation about raising a ruckus on that conservative forum, but I guess it was too irresistible to resist and I said the most neutral thing I could muster.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I'm only addressing this part of your longer post. It seems you are failing to distinguish between Slave Patrols, sometimes called "paddy rollers" by slaves, and whose duties were to enforce discipline on black slaves in pre-Civil War southern states, and police organizations created to perform many more duties than the paddy rollers. Some municipal police forces can trace their history back to the early 17th century.
> 
> Yes, I realize police forces aided slave patrols. And, yes, I'm well aware of the fact that African-Americans are stopped by police merely because they were "driving being black" and are often treated with suspicion and even followed around in various retail establishments.


Read the link I sent earlier on the history of policing in the US. The author focuses mainly on Chicago but that history is matched across the country. The FBI grew out of the goon squads used to break up labor protests. And those were also used by miners in the west to prevent strikes. Hoover came directly out of these goon squad patrols.

The point is that policing was always about protecting the interests of the upper crust ruling elite and the masses were always seen as dangerous hoards to control and suppress. When you throw in the issue of color, it got even worse. The history of unions was really a pretty bloody one in this country. Policing never was egalitarian and never was in the interests of the people because of that.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> I think I read the book. Rabbit Proof Fence.


That book was nothing to do with rabbits, it was about the forced removal of children of mixed blood from their Aboriginal mothers. Although it was stopped over 50 years ago it is still causing problems and heartache to many in our Aboriginal communities. It is a very sad chapter in the history of Australia.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

I have just deleted the double post here, that is all, nothing to worry about. Thank you.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> CROW (Conservative Ruthless Older Woman)?


Aussie version: Contrary, rightwing, obstinate w***** (sorry edited to avoid being edited) but if you know Aussie swear words you can fill in the blanks. OK OK I will modify it for USA consumption - contrary, rightwing, obstinate woman.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> DORK
> 
> Determined Old Republican Kvetchers


Demented Old Republican Kvetchers?


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> That book was nothing to do with rabbits, it was about the forced removal of children of mixed blood from their Aboriginal mothers. Although it was stopped over 50 years ago it is still causing problems and heartache to many in our Aboriginal communities. It is a very sad chapter in the history of Australia.


Who taught whom--the US or Australia. The american experience of removal of children from Native families was absolutely brutal. For that matte, any removal of populations is always brutal! It really is a form of ethnic cleansing and genocide.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

I must say the photos of the rabbits in such multitude is almost frightening--akin to a plague.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> That book was nothing to do with rabbits, it was about the forced removal of children of mixed blood from their Aboriginal mothers. Although it was stopped over 50 years ago it is still causing problems and heartache to many in our Aboriginal communities. It is a very sad chapter in the history of Australia.


Very sad, but a good book to read.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> DORK
> 
> Determined Old Republican Kvetchers


sighhhhhhh
I knew you were untruthful


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Who taught whom--the US or Australia. The american experience of removal of children from Native families was absolutely brutal. For that matte, any removal of populations is always brutal! It really is a form of ethnic cleansing and genocide.


I would say that we both learnt from the British. The British invaded Australia in 1788 and declared it a colony for Britain. It became a penal colony, although not all states were started as penal colonies. The British declared Australia as 'Terra Nullius' when in fact it was not an empty continent that belonged to no one. The Aboriginals have been living here for a very long time, some have estimated it as 65,000 years, they owned the land.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

tamarque said:


> I must say the photos of the rabbits in such multitude is almost frightening--akin to a plague.


It is a plague, it was referred to as a 'rabbit plague' and we have had several over our short history. Rabbits are not native to Australia, they were introduced by the Early settlers, along with the fox, the cane toad, the lists of imported pests is long.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> sighhhhhhh
> I knew you were untruthful


Just a joke, Lakes. Lighten up. Where is the lie? I said I only want to have fun. And I had fun thinking that one up. My family is full of Republicans and they can laugh at what I say. It is not that important. Focus on what is.

Ps. I am on the rabbits side on this one. They look cute and I am impressed with their warren.

See Lakes - I can disagree with the progressives.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Could there be a Craigslist for something like this?


I did a quick search and didn't find anything in my area. I probably need to think up some better search terms. Maybe you could give it a try.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)




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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

SQM said:


> Just a joke, Lakes. Lighten up. Where is the lie? I said I only want to have fun. And I had fun thinking that one up. My family is full of Republicans and they can laugh at what I say. It is not that important. Focus on what is.
> 
> Ps. I am on the rabbits side on this one. They look cute and I am impressed with their warren.
> 
> See Lakes - I can disagree with the progressives.


Rabbits look cute when you don't have to live with them. That many without predators to keep them in balance is counterproductive to say the least.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I would say that we both learnt from the British. The British invaded Australia in 1788 and declared it a colony for Britain. It became a penal colony, although not all states were started as penal colonies. The British declared Australia as 'Terra Nullius' when in fact it was not an empty continent that belonged to no one. The Aboriginals have been living here for a very long time, some have estimated it as 65,000 years, they owned the land.


That is totally true as it was British who settled the US and instated major removal policies along with slavery here. Of course other immigrants didn't protest--well maybe with the exemption of the Quakers many years after slavery's inception.

65,000 yrs seems like a very long time. Recently there have been some articles indicating the Sphinx was built about 10,000 yrs ago, many millennium longer than thought. However, making it more interesting is the question about the technology that allowed them to be built. The theory is there was another well developed civilization that was wiped out catastrophically and universally. The few remaining humans got scattered but the knowledge of what existed remained in the minds of the survivors. It was that memory of technology/science/etc that allowed the people to redevelop the means of building the Sphinx in its exact alignment with various astronomical alignments. That catastrophe is postulated to be a major flood that buried the earth. Further, the complete submersion of all life forms on earth created the oil deposits that we drill for today.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

tamarque said:


> That is totally true as it was British who settled the US and instated major removal policies along with slavery here. Of course other immigrants didn't protest--well maybe with the exemption of the Quakers many years after slavery's inception.
> 
> 65,000 yrs seems like a very long time. Recently there have been some articles indicating the Sphinx was built about 10,000 yrs ago, many millennium longer than thought. However, making it more interesting is the question about the technology that allowed them to be built. The theory is there was another well developed civilization that was wiped out catastrophically and universally. The few remaining humans got scattered but the knowledge of what existed remained in the minds of the survivors. It was that memory of technology/science/etc that allowed the people to redevelop the means of building the Sphinx in its exact alignment with various astronomical alignments. That catastrophe is postulated to be a major flood that buried the earth. Further, the complete submersion of all life forms on earth created the oil deposits that we drill for today.


Sounds like you are an "Ancient Aliens" fan.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I just posted on LOLL> a bit about what is going on here.

It sure is good to be back. I will be taking it easy and will keep in touch. Thanks for the good thoughts. Shirley


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> sighhhhhhh
> I knew you were untruthful


Untruthful? Do you have specifics on that accusation?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Untruthful? Do you have specifics on that accusation?


It was directed to me. Nothing all that important - just another attempt to censor me.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> It was directed to me. Nothing all that important - just another attempt to censor me.


I would still like to know what the "untruth" was supposed to be. The COWS love to throw around the accusation that libs lie all the time but they never give specifics. Without a rebuttal, it's just an epithet.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I just posted on LOLL> a bit about what is going on here.
> 
> It sure is good to be back. I will be taking it easy and will keep in touch. Thanks for the good thoughts. Shirley


I am so sorry to hear that you have not been well and have been in hospital. Please take is easy and relax. I hope you are feeling better today and improve over the next days. Kidney pain and infection is horrible, I know from experience. Sending you healing vibes and a virtual hug.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> I would still like to know what the "untruth" was supposed to be. The COWS love to throw around the accusation that libs lie all the time but they never give specifics. Without a rebuttal, it's just an epithet.


Pm Love the Lake. She wrote it and can explain herself.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> I hope you read the article on Narcissism that I sent. In brief it explains a lot. And it is a tactic of Capitalism which thrives on divide and conquer. Individualism has always been part of the mythology of this country. However, it was always bogus. Not one single person ever survived alone. Every hero always had/has back up support. The Lone Ranger had Tonto, racist as that was. The Indian was his scout and savior on many occasions. That was one of the big mass marketing ploys of ideology of my youth. We have modern versions of the same dynamic.
> 
> Self-focus is a core value promoted because it weakens people. Community is trashed. There was a time when community was really important. A strong community was impossible to infiltrate or destroy. A few yrs ago there was an attempt by the Neo-nazis to create divisiveness in Billings, Montana on the basis of anti-semitism. The community rallied round together and made it impossible for these skinhead types to gain a foot hold. There was a very good documentary made on this situation. It was called Not In Our Town. Very good organizing tool which is what we did in my community. Today politicians talk only about the individual person. There is no value in community and people who talk about the group in any way are attacked as socialists. Well what is the real danger of socialism? It values the group, it sees people as part of a group for survival. It understands that the power of people is in co-ordinated group activity. Unions were called a socialist plot decades ago. Why? Because there is power in numbers and that is the real power of the people.
> 
> ...


I read the article. But IMO, it settled on nihilism as the cause of increased narcissism. I don't agree. I think the main reason narcissism has increased is because of societal changes which took place beginning in the 60s. Everyone was encouraged to do whatever they wanted, without regard for others. While it was a period of liberation for many, it caused a breakdown in the mores which make it possible for people to live and work together.

When I speak of socialism, I'm not referring to it in it's truest form as I think you are. I see socialism as it exists in the real world, as a system of control. If mankind could ever form a true socialist system, no one would need for anything, including a federal government. Alas, there will always be those who want to rule and live off the labor of others. Therefore, socialism can only succeed within relatively small groups of like minded people, not countries or the world.

I also do not see how true capitalism fosters narcissism. In fact, I see it as the opposite. Capitalists spend billions of advertising dollars convincing people that they need to be like everybody else, also known as "keeping up with the Joneses". True capitalism causes people to find ways to meet the needs of others. A salesman who cares not about his clients, won't sell much. IMO, the problem lies in crony capitalism. Corporations buy out their competition, they buy off the politicians. I'm sure this fosters narcissism among the 1%, but I don't see how it would have the same effect on the majority of Americans. In spite of reading the article and your comments, I still think that narcissism can be blamed on a culture that says, " you are so special, you can do whatever you want". A culture that says, "you can have it all". Customs, ethics and mores are unnecessary in a society that worships self.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It galls me, too, as if police were entitled to bad behavior because the job they chose is more dangerous than most. But the job makes them more dangerous, too. Joeysomma challenged you to look up how many innocent or unarmed (black? I don't recall) people were killed by police over the years, so I did that. What I found was that it certainly wasn't one every day, but there was a large-enough list just for 2014 to get my anger up.
> 
> I only thought that on that particular thread, where sympathies were clearly with police who had been killed, it would have been diplomatic not to turn it into an argument.
> 
> ...


Eye opening


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> CROW (Conservative Ruthless Older Woman)?


You think I'm ruthless? Thanks


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> DORK
> 
> Determined Old Republican Kvetchers


Kvetcher? Really?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Kvetcher? Really?


No, not really.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> I have become Persona non grata on other threads, too. So what's new?
> 
> What is the thread Connections about? They have been flourishing for a long time. When I lurk, I cannot figure them out.


They are a conversation thread, a Lot of UK and some Aussie as well as quite a few Americans. Oce in awhile me, when I have the time. Just friends. Nice People much like the Knitting Tea Party. who back each other up and enjoy each other and don't allow politics religion little religion except when someone is illl or hurt about something ,which is very refreshing. Very good friends of mine (Tea Party).


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I really went of broccoli when my ex started growing his own, no pesticides used. You have heard the question 'how many angels can you count dancing on the head of a pin?' well my question is 'how many wrigglies can you count on the bead of a broccoli?' Boy or boy, talk about difficulty in trying to get rid of them before cooking. No matter how many times I blanched the heads of broccoli in hot water, hot water with added vinegar, soaked the heads in water, there always seemed to be some remaining wrigglies left. I have blanched the same head in up to six changes of water and with each change of water I was still finding those wrigglies there.


Blah! How awful. Have grown broccoli before but didn't have wrigglies to contend with. Sorry that put you off. I get mine at this green grocers and it's always good. Heads are firm and colour deep, deep green/purple. Broccoli, Brussels Sprouts, Green Beans and Bok Choy are my staple greens. Buy them 3 times per week. Sweet Potato, carrots, pumpkin, onions also staples for soup. Make soup twice per week. Wish I could have a veg garden again!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> But he was. It is not a laughing matter. Came straight out of the loony bin and killed his girlfriend somewhere down south, then came up north to take care of New York's Finest.
> 
> Aren't we fortunate in this country to have such a large supply of weapons that crazy people can have as many as they want?


Of course it's no laughing matter which explains my disclaimer at the beginning of my post. Yes, the man seemed to be in some sort of psychotic state to commit those horrendous murders and the fact that firearms are so freely available in the U.S., makes the situation all the more incredulous.

That situation isn't confined to the U.S., sadly. We have our fair share of lunatics here and there are whole countries over flowing with them like in Syria and Iraq. It's the evil versus the good paradigm which has been, is and always will be a part of the human condition I am sad to say.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Your grandmother sounds sweet. But in helping bunnies to survive, she's only making them dependent on her, and they'll never bother to ....sorry, I got carried away and began to think I was solow.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Here is an interesting little tidbit: Woodie Guthrie's New Year's Resolution list, 1942
> 
> http://nyceducator.com/2013/12/new-years-resolutions.html?utm_source=digg&utm_medium=email
> 
> I especially like the last one


Priceless and oh, so inspiring! Ditto the last one.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Hmm. So you are the half-filled glass type. What do you fill the glass with?


Anything mind altering and illegal!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Being somewhat pessimist about certain things, I see the shooting of the two NYC police officers as the beginning of open season on killing police officers.


A frightening thought. Imagine the crossfire if that happens. We're all at risk.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> I think I read the book. Rabbit Proof Fence.


Saw the film. Well worth a watch.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> DORK
> 
> Determined Old Republican Kvetchers


 :XD: :XD: :XD: Does the word 'old' have to be included?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> My favorite is when the news reports that the cop killer, or mass killer turned the gun on himself. Sure!!!!!!!


Mine too. How dumb do they think we are?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I take broccoli and potatoes, cooked as you like them, then coated with pesto sauce and topped with some parmesan cheese. A little time under the broiler and you've got something I think is delicious.


That sounds delectable. Have noted this and will make when the weather is cooler. It's over 40 degrees C (104F) here in Melbourne right now and we have out of control fires burning throughout the state. Hopefully no deaths will occur as a result.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Aussie version: Contrary, rightwing, obstinate w***** (sorry edited to avoid being edited) but if you know Aussie swear words you can fill in the blanks. OK OK I will modify it for USA consumption - contrary, rightwing, obstinate woman.


Nothing wrong with the word 'wanker.' It's application knows no bounds.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Who taught whom--the US or Australia. The american experience of removal of children from Native families was absolutely brutal. For that matte, any removal of populations is always brutal! It really is a form of ethnic cleansing and genocide.


Absolutely and it aggravates me no end in trying to understand the respective authorities justification for doing so. I'm sure it was borne out of fear.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I am so sorry to hear that you have not been well and have been in hospital. Please take is easy and relax. I hope you are feeling better today and improve over the next days. Kidney pain and infection is horrible, I know from experience. Sending you healing vibes and a virtual hug.


Good vibes from me also Designer. Didn't know you were unwell. Take care.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> There are many more killings that are not listed here. For example a young black woman had car problems and went to knock on a door for help. The man inside got his rifle and killed her. I don't believe he even opened the door. I also don't see the murder of Oscar Grant on the list (you might recall the film Fruitvale Station which documented that murder). I tend to trust stats that come from the ACLU or NAACP or other liberal/progressive groups with an interest in tracking these kinds of killings. And those stats conservatively state 1killing every 28 hours of a person of color.
> 
> Yet when a white male is parading around the streets with an assault weapon the people won't even get our of their car, nor do they raise their voice or gun at this man. (yes, documented case this summer). And what about that jerk Clive Bundy and his libertarian boys that waged a stand off with the FBI and local police last summer? spring? Those guys were whooping up their power to get the police to back down and leave. Not a single gunshot. Not a single arrest.
> 
> ...


I believe these were statistics of police shooting unarmed black people. That stupid man who shot the woman with car trouble wasn't police. Oscar Grant was murdered 5 or 6 years ago - did you go back that far?

There is obviously something wrong - seriously wrong - about police attitudes toward black people. I don't know how it gets repaired, but I know more than the Supreme Court. Sometimes it all makes me angry; sometimes I just want to cry about what my country has come to be.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Aussie version: Contrary, rightwing, obstinate w***** (sorry edited to avoid being edited) but if you know Aussie swear words you can fill in the blanks. OK OK I will modify it for USA consumption - contrary, rightwing, obstinate woman.


Scoooooore!!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> sighhhhhhh
> I knew you were untruthful


Speaking of untruths, now that you've been shown where you accused Designer of encouraging the rest of us to wallpaper D&P, isn't it time to admit you made that unfounded accusation? Or do you really think that you saying "I don't lie" is supposed to convince people?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I did a quick search and didn't find anything in my area. I probably need to think up some better search terms. Maybe you could give it a try.


I'm only guessing where your area is. You could start it: For barter in B------- area, (whatever you have to offer) in exchange for fresh vegetables grown organically. See whether anyone responds.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Pm Love the Lake. She wrote it and can explain herself.


But won't. She seems to think it's enough for her to make an accusation, without followup and without explanation.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Eye opening


Were you unfamiliar with the phenomenon?

BTW, your state made the op-ed page of the New York Times last week: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/27/opinion/nebraskas-lonely-progressives.html with letters yesterday in response: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/02/opinion/theres-hope-for-nebraskas-liberals.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I believe these were statistics of police shooting unarmed black people. That stupid man who shot the woman with car trouble wasn't police. Oscar Grant was murdered 5 or 6 years ago - did you go back that far?
> 
> There is obviously something wrong - seriously wrong - about police attitudes toward black people. I don't know how it gets repaired, but I know more than the Supreme Court. Sometimes it all makes me angry; sometimes I just want to cry about what my country has come to be.


This is only my theory. I really do think police officers are influenced less by their own past and present experiences and more by those of their colleagues (mostly related anecdotally with the inevitable embellishments), and of society's (through media) which psychologically forms a set of presumptions about varying groups of people and the way they are EXPECTED to react rather than the way they DO react. This sets up a 'planned response' for said groups of people which does not vary from situation to situation.

Insofar as black people are concerned, they are viewed with suspicion right off the bat, and there is no room for compromise. Police action is more likely, therefore, to be aggressive and lead to violence. We see it here with our police treatment of our indigenous people. Their treatment is very, very different than the treatment of non indigenous.

I think the answer has to lie with the selection process of people for the police force and the training that is given to them.

I think my opinion of police is known here. In my experience with them, I have found that they tend to be over confident, self-entitled and boorish. I've always felt they have no idea how to calm situations down.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You think I'm ruthless? Thanks


What other adjectives begin with R? At least I didn't use "obnoxious."


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Of course it's no laughing matter which explains my disclaimer at the beginning of my post. Yes, the man seemed to be in some sort of psychotic state to commit those horrendous murders and the fact that firearms are so freely available in the U.S., makes the situation all the more incredulous.
> 
> That situation isn't confined to the U.S., sadly. We have our fair share of lunatics here and there are whole countries over flowing with them like in Syria and Iraq. It's the evil versus the good paradigm which has been, is and always will be a part of the human condition I am sad to say.


Oh, dear. When I said it was no laughing matter, I meant that it was a laughing matter - the word "lunatic," not the shooting itself. The phrase "loony bin" in the next sentence should have given it away.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: Does the word 'old' have to be included?


In COW, the O is for "obnoxious." We don't care about age, the way those children in D&P do.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Nothing wrong with the word 'wanker.' It's application knows no bounds.


Funny, I thought the W stood for "whore."


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> This is only my theory. I really do think police officers are influenced less by their own past and present experiences and more by those of their colleagues (mostly related anecdotally with the inevitable embellishments), and of society's (through media) which psychologically forms a set of presumptions about varying groups of people and the way they are EXPECTED to react rather than the way they DO react. This sets up a 'planned response' for said groups of people which does not vary from situation to situation.
> 
> Insofar as black people are concerned, they are viewed with suspicion right off the bat, and there is no room for compromise. Police action is more likely, therefore, to be aggressive and lead to violence. We see it here with our police treatment of our indigenous people. Their treatment is very, very different than the treatment of non indigenous.
> 
> ...


No argument from me. Especially since I learned that many US police departments are looking for low, or at least below average, IQ in officers.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Wake up and fight. The time has come.



Wombatnomore said:


> Priceless and oh, so inspiring! Ditto the last one.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I wish they'd turn the guns on themselves first instead of last.



Wombatnomore said:


> Mine too. How dumb do they think we are?


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> It was directed to me. Nothing all that important - just another attempt to censor me.


Not true. I don't have the right to censor you. And I have never attempted to censor you in the past. Maybe the name lemming would be better than sloth.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

<<<whispering........Sounds like an attempt to censor to me. Perhaps she'll notice if everyone is very quiet. Shhhh. Back to important things. >>>



lovethelake said:


> Not true. I don't have the right to censor you. And I have never attempted to censor you in the past. Maybe the name lemming would be better than sloth.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

This is the problem when missing several pages--much gets missed or is too much to comment on--but let me see.

1. Broccoli with cabbage looper worms. Obnoxious and destructive things. I use homeopathy remedies in the garden to keep them away.

2. Barter for food: Try Freecycle better than Craigslist. You can sign up by county of your choice. The idea is to not have any money exchange hands and it is prohibited. Have gotten many things that way that are very useful including seeds and plants, and have given to others. It is not a 1:1 exchange. The idea is to keep things out of the waste stream


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Were you unfamiliar with the phenomenon?
> 
> BTW, your state made the op-ed page of the New York Times last week: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/27/opinion/nebraskas-lonely-progressives.html with letters yesterday in response: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/02/opinion/theres-hope-for-nebraskas-liberals.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0


That reminds me that there are only 360 Jews in South Dakota and no full-time rabbi. That is where Evil Alynn is from.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Funny, I thought the W stood for "whore."


Again we are on the same wave length. So did I and it fit the symbols. We don't use wanker here even tho I am sure Americans wank.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> Not true. I don't have the right to censor you. And I have never attempted to censor you in the past. Maybe the name lemming would be better than sloth.


I am sorry I did not meet you years ago when I began to worship the Great Sloth.

Kiss Kiss Muah for Lakes from Slomming.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Racism--a separate response as it is a big topic, but I will try to be brief.. This country was founded on racism. Our entire economy was based on racism and slavery. Actually Slavery came first and then was institutionalized by law. Early on enslaved people and indentured servants were pretty much in the same boat and lived in the same communities very often. There was fear of rebellion by these people who had the same class interests--poverty and seeking relief from oppression by the owner class. Laws were put on the books to separate them out. Early laws against misogyny back to the 18c I believe. The intent to make Black people a chattel class was intentional. While there was prejudice in the world, it was never institutionalized the way it was done in the US. Even enslavement in other parts of the world or among Native Americans always allowed improved status to accrue and people were not bought and sold wholesale as pieces of furniture or farm animals.

In other words, racism is a social construct. It defines a power over relationship between the white, male ruling class and people of color. And where white people can aspire to become part of the upper classes by blending in, people of color as a class cannot. Every white immigrant group by the 3rd generation was assimilated to the extent they wished to be. Name changes, accents lost, noses changed, hair colored and now even eye color can be changed with contact lens. But dark skin people are always dark skin and that puts them in a class to be distrusted, feared, and denigrated. I have seen professors and very wealthy black people profiled by police. Black politicians still report being profiled and defiled for their color. 

Racist attitudes are embedded cellularly in the public's consciousness in the US. I think it is the same for Aboriginees in Australia as another example.

As per article sent and other documentation, the concept of police was to contain these foreign masses of poor people and people of color. The intent is repress them always. While even during the Occupy movement, many of those people who were very orderly, became 'other' and were manhandled by the police, they could become 'white' again when they went back home or school, etc. But dark skinned people can never do this. They were intended to be a chattel class of people and still are. They are used for profit in many ways. Our prisons are filled with them and they are used to make profit for the privately owned prison system. 85% of prisons in the US are privately owned today in case you are not aware of this. And prison labor is used to make fortunes for the owned who contract with major corporations for various sorts of work. Again, most people do not know that prisons contract with IBM, and other similar large corporations for production items. This not only is a major money maker for the prison owners, but prisoners of color are used to keep labor costs down as they usually get paid less than $1/hour.

So racism has always made fortunes for people in the US, and that includes the North. There is a book called Ebony and Ivy about the roots of Brown University in the support of Slavery. And the slave trade operated in the north, too. NYS has a disgusting history of slavery. It was about 10??? yrs ago that a slave cemetery was unearthed during a dig in lower Manhattan. It is estimated that was was uncovered was only a small fraction of the burial ground. Today there is a memorial and a museum which people should visit next to the memorial.

So getting back to police: they are there to protect the ruling class property and interests. People who are defined as threatening; i.e., people of color, are always viewed with suspicion and treated thusly. Cops shoot to kill because of prejudice. Their so-called fear is systemic and not material. Therefore, there is never justification for them killing the ways they do. 

It is rare that they are in real danger and often when they are it is with white people. And we have seen how they react in the face of white skin heads or the Clive Bundy situation or the man with the assault rifle parading the streets. Those are materially frightening people but not a single gunshot much less a threat from law enforcement against them. These people carry white skin privilege no matter what they do, something people of color can never have by definition.

Read Michelle Alexander's The New Jim Crow. Watch the PBS documentary, free online, Slavery,By AnOther Name (think that is the title).

I said I wouldn't be long--sorry, I lie.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Were you unfamiliar with the phenomenon?
> 
> BTW, your state made the op-ed page of the New York Times last week: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/27/opinion/nebraskas-lonely-progressives.html with letters yesterday in response: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/02/opinion/theres-hope-for-nebraskas-liberals.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0


I was not unfamiliar. You hear about them on the news, in piecemeal fashion. To see them listed together has greater effect.

As to the opinion peice, the writer freely admits that the vast majority of Nebraskans are conservatives. And yet, she sees it as perfectly acceptable to undermine those people. She'd like more progressives to move to Nebraska in order to drown out the voices of those who already live there. Are those conservatives not entitled to representation? Is this some sort of quest to take over the world, to dismiss those who think differently? Frankly, I think the writer should move to an area where she'd be more comfortable, instead of trying to force the rest of us to bend to her will.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

On Police killing of Black folk: first link uses stats that are used in other articles but puts them in perspective of black people killed by police. The paragraph copied below the link is from that article.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36807.htm

Prysner is not alone in his assertion that race is a major factor in officer-related violence. This past May, a study from the the Malcolm X Grassroots Movement, an anti-racist activist organization, found that police officers, security guards or self-appointed vigilantes killed at least 313 Black people in 2012  meaning one Black person was killed in the U.S. by law enforcement roughly every 28 hours.

Here are some other articles with stats and commentary on the stats of Death by Police. They all note the inadequacy of the stats as police septs are not required to report nor are they reporting many deaths not considered unjustifiable or killed while in custody.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-many-americans-the-police-kill-each-year/

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/24/1324132/-How-Often-are-Unarmed-Black-Men-Shot-Down-By-Police

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/16/nearly-600-people-have-be_n_5831042.html

I found it interesting that mainstream articles like that in the Washington Post minimized the issue of race, or just doesn't mention it. One of the manifestations of racism is the lack of attention to racial data in reporting. On this note, a local issue fought with the schools was to get them to keep disaggregated data on race and class. The State now requires it but for years it was a major battle. Not having data is one of the racist tactics to create denial--no stats, no issue is the reaction. Not being hostile when I add this to your consciousness.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> That reminds me that there are only 360 Jews in South Dakota and no full-time rabbi. That is where Evil Alynn is from.


So, why don't the Jews send a rabbi to South Dakota? Do they not care about South Dakotans? Or perhaps, they just don't need a full time rabbi. I find it offensive that you call your relatives "evil", just because they have different ideas than you. It's quite intolerant of you.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So, why don't the Jews send a rabbi to South Dakota? Do they not care about South Dakotans? Or perhaps, they just don't need a full time rabbi. I find it offensive that you call your relatives "evil", just because they have different ideas than you. It's quite intolerant of you.


Dear Nebs,

Alynn and Twin just laugh when I call them that and claim that I am really a Rep. So why are you upset about what I call them? I come from a funny family.

There is a itinerant rabbi who does go to SD but the demand is small.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Dear Nebs,
> 
> Alynn and Twin just laugh when I call them that and claim that I am really a Rep. So why are you upset about what I call them? I come from a funny family.
> 
> There is a itinerant rabbi who does go to SD but the demand is small.


I know you are very fond of your siblings. You just got back from visiting them didn't you? Sounds like a close family who have great senses of humor.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Scoooooore!!


[Aussie version: Contrary, rightwing, obstinate w***** (sorry edited to avoid being edited) but if you know Aussie swear words you can fill in the blanks. OK OK I will modify it for USA consumption - contrary, rightwing, obstinate woman).

CROW????? :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I know you are very fond of your siblings. You just got back from visiting them didn't you? Sounds like a close family who have great senses of humor.


Hi Precious Shirley,

Of course I adore my twin and his partner and thanks for remembering that I did visit with them in Boston last month. And the "M" family is indeed very funny and totally quirky. Plus The Evils are tough and can take it by ignoring me.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Dear Nebs,
> 
> Alynn and Twin just laugh when I call them that and claim that I am really a Rep. So why are you upset about what I call them? I come from a funny family.
> 
> There is a itinerant rabbi who does go to SD but the demand is small.


I'm not upset. I just find it offensive.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

They don't so what I call The Evils is ultimately none of your business. In fact, they both find it amusing that they are characters on this forum. Chill and get offended at what is happening in the world around us. What I call them is so unimportant. You can also not read my posts but you will be missing out on some rich comments. ( Chortle.)


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

KFN--I think you are short sighted in your understanding of the social dynamics that resulted in the pathological rise of narcissism in our culture. By your repeated attacks on the idea that people have the right to feel good about themselves it shows your lack of understanding of the movements of the late '60's and '70's. It also shows your contempt for people who dared to question the establishment order of things, including social relationships. What many of the people back then were revolting against was the repression and fear of McCarthyism which demanded people act like plastic robots and dutifully goose step to a single concept of reality. 

One of the concepts practices was collective decision-making. The hardest part of it was for people to overcome their deep seated individualism which already was deeply entrenched in our society. I cannot speak to the many hours spent discussing and arguing about individualism as a pathology and how destructive it was to collective political, economic and social functioning. Actually, let me say bluntly that you have it completely backwards. Mainstream society wanted conformance and still does. But it promotes it as individuality. Yes, you can choose a blue car or a red car. Whoopy do!

This is a false image of independence in thinking or behavior. It is a lie that I believe you buy into without any understanding. 

As for capitalism promoting narcissism: That is exactly what it does. The idea of nihilism being the opposite of narcissism is a very interesting one, at least to me. It is a new way of looking at the problem and it deserves thought. The idea that without the total self-centeredness of the individual, they are so isolated from any meaningful value system that they feel like nothing. They suffer an existential void of being in the world. Any challenge to their narcissism results in dismissal, anger, vituperative reactions and downright violence, verbal or physical. 

When I think of the religious belief systems held by many and their rageful reaction if questioned, I have to wonder what they are really about. This concept of emptiness, a destruction of their identity might be what is causing them to fight so ragefully when opposite ideas are presented. This can happen with any belief system about anything that works as a defining piece of someones core identity.

This is promoted by Capitalism as it is a great way to keep people on a fragile ground, and isolated from others, which make them even more fragile. Capitalism tells people that money and power are the only things of value and importance. Take this away and the person is lost in a sea of nothingness. Thus the suicides of many wealthy people after the 1929 Stock market crash.

The neo-con vision has brought this country to place where Democracy and Capitalism are defined as one. The reality is that they are two concepts in opposition to each other. Which is why every time the US blabs about keeping the world safe for democracy it is a lie unless you mean Capitalism exported as Imperialist control over other nations and peoples of the world. In the US, it clearly is a mass confusion operating today and it did not get here by accident. Nor did it get here because some hippies wanted to feel free for repressive values that made no sense to people who wanted to learn to think for themselves and to actually live collectively.

Capitalism, and economic system, can only work well with Fascism, a political system. It is why the US destroyed every democratic effort in the world today, particularly in the US. And creating division amongst the people is definitive if the public is to be controlled. And there you have Narcissism lifted to the level of the public persona while any talk about collective, communal behavior and the values involved in that are mocked. You really have it totally backwards.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Were you unfamiliar with the phenomenon?
> 
> BTW, your state made the op-ed page of the New York Times last week: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/27/opinion/nebraskas-lonely-progressives.html with letters yesterday in response: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/02/opinion/theres-hope-for-nebraskas-liberals.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0


Some good letter writing there--all of them. It is interesting to note that even in the most conservative regions, there are always a handful of progressive, or at least populace thinkings.

I think it instructive that the small group that has been meeting for several years is successful on the XL pipeline because it is a universal issue that affects everyone. People need to organize around commonality and the challenge is how to frame the issues so they are inclusive.

In Seattle a young socialist mayor was elected because the campaign was based on building coalitions around populace issues that affect the majority of people. Minimum wage was a big one in Seattle just as it was in Nebraska. I just wish progressives would keep this in mind when working to create change.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I was not unfamiliar. You hear about them on the news, in piecemeal fashion. To see them listed together has greater effect.
> 
> As to the opinion peice, the writer freely admits that the vast majority of Nebraskans are conservatives. And yet, she sees it as perfectly acceptable to undermine those people. She'd like more progressives to move to Nebraska in order to drown out the voices of those who already live there. Are those conservatives not entitled to representation? Is this some sort of quest to take over the world, to dismiss those who think differently? Frankly, I think the writer should move to an area where she'd be more comfortable, instead of trying to force the rest of us to bend to her will.


How you miss the point! The letter writer stands for some changes that will benefit, not only Nebraska, but the country as a whole. Do you really stand for a country that wants to end public education in favor of private, for profit schools? Have you looked at what is actually happening with these private schools paid for by public money--millions each year? Have you ever done a real comparison with the consequences of privatization of public utilities? Why wouldn't you support a more populist agenda?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Oh, dear. When I said it was no laughing matter, I meant that it was a laughing matter - the word "lunatic," not the shooting itself. The phrase "loony bin" in the next sentence should have given it away.


I'm sorry. I re-read your post and got it. That's what happens when I don't read things carefully. :|


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Funny, I thought the W stood for "whore."


 :XD: another word with fewer boundaries, especially when women use it!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> No argument from me. Especially since I learned that many US police departments are looking for low, or at least below average, IQ in officers.


I wonder how the police powers that be justify this. It's not as if officers with above intelligence would be paid anymore, so it can't be for fiscal reasons. Maybe it's to do with the idea that people of lower intelligence would be more likely to 'cop' the danger and more repugnant aspects of the job (pardon the pun)?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I wish they'd turn the guns on themselves first instead of last.


That would be more than helpful. But there's a rage in them and they seem to have to leave their mark.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Again we are on the same wave length. So did I and it fit the symbols. We don't use wanker here even tho I am sure Americans wank.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Hi Precious Shirley,
> 
> Of course I adore my twin and his partner and thanks for remembering that I did visit with them in Boston last month. And the "M" family is indeed very funny and totally quirky. Plus The Evils are tough and can take it by ignoring me.


I always have a laugh when you talk about the 'Evils.'


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I was not unfamiliar. You hear about them on the news, in piecemeal fashion. To see them listed together has greater effect.
> 
> As to the opinion peice, the writer freely admits that the vast majority of Nebraskans are conservatives. And yet, she sees it as perfectly acceptable to undermine those people. She'd like more progressives to move to Nebraska in order to drown out the voices of those who already live there. Are those conservatives not entitled to representation? Is this some sort of quest to take over the world, to dismiss those who think differently? Frankly, I think the writer should move to an area where she'd be more comfortable, instead of trying to force the rest of us to bend to her will.


This message of yours is probably the most interesting one I've ever read. The author begins by saying "Nebraska is my home and ... I love its people and its geography." Why should she have to leave? "If we leave, who will voice our agenda?" Do you want this minority to have no voice at all?

And then she outlines the progressive agenda: "We originally came together to stop the Keystone XL pipeline from crossing our Sand Hills and Ogallala Aquifer, a cause that has brought together farmers, ranchers, urbanites, Republicans and Democrats, students and senior citizens. We are still fighting the tar sands pipeline, but we have expanded our mission to clean energy, environmental justice and the local food movement." Horrors, you must band together to chase these people out of your tranquil gun-filled state!

A few days ago you posted a message that indicated that you really have no idea what progressives and liberals stand for. All you know is the nonsense that conservative propaganda writes about them - about us. You've given more attention to trivia such as chemtrails than to what ideas we have that might be the saving of this country. You justify your lack of curiosity by saying both parties are alike and everyone is ruled by the oligarchs. Then what difference would it make to you if a few more Democrats moved to blood-red Nebraska?

Let me set your mind at ease about one issue, Christianity. You seem to think that only conservatives are believers. This is very far from the case. There are huge numbers of believing Chistians who regard liberalism as the system Jesus would have preferred. You just need to see how seriously the D&P people take the trappings of Christianity without any attention to the words of their savior. You may not even be aware that a number of us are believing Christians, because they keep that part of themselves in their hearts and in their souls and don't insult their faith by paying it lip service.

Well, enough, except that I'd like to point out that since the Founding, (white male) Americans have been free to move wherever they wanted for whatever reason they have. If a few more progressives want to move to Nebraska, who are you to even imply that they mustn't move to your state? That sounds un-American to me.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I wonder how the police powers that be justify this. It's not as if officers with above intelligence would be paid anymore, so it can't be for fiscal reasons. Maybe it's to do with the idea that people of lower intelligence would be more likely to 'cop' the danger and more repugnant aspects of the job (pardon the pun)?


Well, hard to imagine they admit this, but not surprising. It takes people with little imagination and little independence to do that job and not think about what they are really doing. Also people who get off on having the power of the gun and the right to use it. I found the same thing in the prisons. Guards who retained any sense of human decency never lasted on the job because of the abuse that was demanded of them.

Thinking back to Viet Nam when we still had a draft, many people of higher intelligence and more schooling were being drafted. Lots more thinking and analysis and rebellion within the ranks against the atrocities being committed in their name and what they needed to do to stay alive. Today the volunteer army fills its ranks with people with little education, little understanding of the world around them, and lots of poverty.

Years ago I had a group of young boys that hung around my apartment. They were all African-american or Puerto Rican, growing up poor and working class. They would talk a lot of shit but also talked about their lives from their perspective. I recall talk of joining the police because they could get all the free weed and not be arrested. I see that mentality in various ways still ongoing. But added to that today, police salaries are extremely high, at least in NY.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> KFN--I think you are short sighted in your understanding of the social dynamics that resulted in the pathological rise of narcissism in our culture. By your repeated attacks on the idea that people have the right to feel good about themselves it shows your lack of understanding of the movements of the late '60's and '70's. It also shows your contempt for people who dared to question the establishment order of things, including social relationships. What many of the people back then were revolting against was the repression and fear of McCarthyism which demanded people act like plastic robots and dutifully goose step to a single concept of reality.
> 
> One of the concepts practices was collective decision-making. The hardest part of it was for people to overcome their deep seated individualism which already was deeply entrenched in our society. I cannot speak to the many hours spent discussing and arguing about individualism as a pathology and how destructive it was to collective political, economic and social functioning. Actually, let me say bluntly that you have it completely backwards. Mainstream society wanted conformance and still does. But it promotes it as individuality. Yes, you can choose a blue car or a red car. Whoopy do!
> 
> ...


Interesting opinions! No less valid than mine. However you distort my view. I never said that people shouldn't feel good about themselves. I said that I believe that the breakdown of social mores was a causal factor in the increase of narcissism, the idea that anything goes, that the individual is more important than the whole. I also didn't suggest that capitalism promoted individuality. Quite the contrary. When I made the point about "keeping up with the Joneses", I was saying the opposite. Not too different from your " red car or blue car" example.

Frankly, I question your understanding of a lot of things. You think that religious belief causes nihilism, when by definition the opposite is true. You view democracy and capitalism as one. Capitalism is an exchange of goods, for something of value. Democracy is a political system where majority rules and there is no concern for individual rights. While both systems have been corrupted, they remain quite different from each other. You say that capitalism tells people that tells people that money and power are the only things of value and importance. That's simply not true! I engage in capitalism several times a week and I clearly know that friends and family are what's important to me. To make such statements is ridiculous and absurd!

We both recognize that there are those in power who control things. You can call them neo con's, if you wish. But they don't belong to conservatives or liberals. IMO, they made up those terms to divide us. As long as the blame falls on one party or another, people aren't aware of who's actually pulling the strings behind the scenes. They manipulate everything and everyone and use governments all over the world, to control people. If we are to ever stand a chance of being independent of these people, we need to disregard the details. We waste our time and energies arguing about things that don't matter. Bottom line: there are evil greedy people who want it all, and will stop at nothing to get it. They've bought our government and almost every other government in the world. They send us to war with those they can't buy. Unless people everywhere start to realize what's going on behind the scenes, we'll be in the same position as those who live in tyrannical dictatorships. Right now, our freedom is an illusion that they allow us, to keep us in line. Theyre well on their way to having their system of control in place. Time is short!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> How you miss the point! The letter writer stands for some changes that will benefit, not only Nebraska, but the country as a whole. Do you really stand for a country that wants to end public education in favor of private, for profit schools? Have you looked at what is actually happening with these private schools paid for by public money--millions each year? Have you ever done a real comparison with the consequences of privatization of public utilities? Why wouldn't you support a more populist agenda?


You have NO idea what you're talking about! Nebraska is one of only three states that refused to accept Bill Gate's common core! Education in Nebraska remains in the hands of the people. It's also one of very few states that has refused to allow corporations to buy and control our utilities! The gas, water and electricity companies belong to the people! It wasn't the progressives who did that!


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

tamarque said:


> This is the problem when missing several pages--much gets missed or is too much to comment on--but let me see.
> 
> 1. Broccoli with cabbage looper worms. Obnoxious and destructive things. I use homeopathy remedies in the garden to keep them away.
> 
> 2. Barter for food: Try Freecycle better than Craigslist. You can sign up by county of your choice. The idea is to not have any money exchange hands and it is prohibited. Have gotten many things that way that are very useful including seeds and plants, and have given to others. It is not a 1:1 exchange. The idea is to keep things out of the waste stream


I took a quick look at Freecycle and it looks like I could find some good uses for it.:thumbup:


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I took a quick look at Freecycle and it looks like I could find some good uses for it.:thumbup:


Glad it might help. About 2 yrs ago when I wanted a new couch I began to look for one. Missed a nice one when the owner didn't believe I was coming and gave it to someone else. The next week another one turned up, much closer to where I live and it was brand new. The owner had a bug in his bonnet about it. Turns out to be a very expensive couch that was feather filled --no chemicals. I could have sold it for $900 on craigslist but decided to keep it. It is valued a lot more than that. So just keep looking and asking for what you need. Eventually it all seems to come.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You have NO idea what you're talking about! Nebraska is one of only three states that refused to accept Bill Gate's common core! Education in Nebraska remains in the hands of the people. It's also one of very few states that has refused to allow corporations to buy and control our utilities! The gas, water and electricity companies belong to the people! It wasn't the progressives who did that!


From my reading of the history of Nebraska public utility it indeed has a lot to thank a progressive senator for in its creation. Nebraska Senator George Norris was described as a progressive republican and eventually left the Republican Party to become an independent who received great support from other progressives and liberal democrats


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> This message of yours is probably the most interesting one I've ever read. The author begins by saying "Nebraska is my home and ... I love its people and its geography." Why should she have to leave? "If we leave, who will voice our agenda?" Do you want this minority to have no voice at all?
> 
> And then she outlines the progressive agenda: "We originally came together to stop the Keystone XL pipeline from crossing our Sand Hills and Ogallala Aquifer, a cause that has brought together farmers, ranchers, urbanites, Republicans and Democrats, students and senior citizens. We are still fighting the tar sands pipeline, but we have expanded our mission to clean energy, environmental justice and the local food movement." Horrors, you must band together to chase these people out of your tranquil gun-filled state!
> 
> ...


In your very first paragraph, you quote the author's concern for their "agenda". That's the problem I have. There's an agenda to change everything in our state, one thing at a time. You insinuate that I don't want progressives to have a voice. That's not true. They should have the same voice as anyone else, without trying to force their agenda upon the rest of us.

Don't think for one minute that democrats are the only ones concerned about what the keystone pipeline will do to our state and our country. That's a lie! Big money comes in and buys advertising to try and convince us that we want the pipeline. Like every state, we've some short sighted people but most of us understand the risks and are against allowing a pipeline to run over the Ogalala Aquifer. It's quite misleading of the author to suggest that her tiny little group are the only ones who care. And yes, it is for the most part, "a tranquil gun filled state". Much more so than say, New York.

The author of the editorial is very proud of shutting down the coal fired power plant. Good for her. Obama already announced that he was going to shut down all of the coal fired plants anyway, so I doubt they succumbed to her little group. That just means that more of our power will have to come from our nuclear power plants, which most of us find unacceptable. Our nuclear plants are old and have been shut down several times. Wind energy and solar energy do not provide plentiful affordable electricity. They provide a fraction of electricity generation, afforded only by taxpayer subsidies. Considering that the numbers of tax paying citizens is dwindling, the costs of electricity will rise dramatically. Should electricity be available to everyone, or only those who can afford it? Here in Nebraska, we also like our wildlife. Do you have any idea how many birds get fried, flying across solar power plants or chewed to bits by wind generator blades? Where are the environmentalists when it comes to that? There is no perfect solution to electricity generation. Each manner of generation has good points and bad. But IMO, it would be unforgivable to create electricity that can only be afforded by the wealthy or subsidized by the few.

Your rant about Christians has nothing do do with anything. I've never implied that liberals weren't Christians and I've not aligned myself with D&P. So, I can only assume that you were frustrated with me and decide to throw at me, every talking point you've got. Well, I guess that's OK. Rant away!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So, why don't the Jews send a rabbi to South Dakota? Do they not care about South Dakotans? Or perhaps, they just don't need a full time rabbi. I find it offensive that you call your relatives "evil", just because they have different ideas than you. It's quite intolerant of you.


"The Jews" are not a single body with any kind of leadership, and Jews (no "the" ) don't _send_ rabbis anywhere. Rabbis have to find their own jobs. If there exists a SD congregation that needs or wants a rabbi, they can advertise for one or get in touch with the schools that ordain rabbis for referrals. Individuals can do the same thing if they need a rabbi to fill certain functions.

As for what the Sloth calls her own brother and his partner, that's absolutely none of your business. It's not even anything you should find offensive. Families make their own negotiations about things, have their own jokes, and outsiders may laugh at the jokes but shouldn't even comment on the negotiations.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> They don't so what I call The Evils is ultimately none of your business. In fact, they both find it amusing that they are characters on this forum. Chill and get offended at what is happening in the world around us. What I call them is so unimportant. You can also not read my posts but you will be missing out on some rich comments. ( Chortle.)


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> KFN--I think you are short sighted in your understanding of the social dynamics that resulted in the pathological rise of narcissism in our culture. By your repeated attacks on the idea that people have the right to feel good about themselves it shows your lack of understanding of the movements of the late '60's and '70's. It also shows your contempt for people who dared to question the establishment order of things, including social relationships. What many of the people back then were revolting against was the repression and fear of McCarthyism which demanded people act like plastic robots and dutifully goose step to a single concept of reality.
> 
> One of the concepts practices was collective decision-making. The hardest part of it was for people to overcome their deep seated individualism which already was deeply entrenched in our society. I cannot speak to the many hours spent discussing and arguing about individualism as a pathology and how destructive it was to collective political, economic and social functioning. Actually, let me say bluntly that you have it completely backwards. Mainstream society wanted conformance and still does. But it promotes it as individuality. Yes, you can choose a blue car or a red car. Whoopy do!
> 
> ...


I can't comment on your whole message because I don't know as much about its content as I should. Most of it sound valid to me.

I will say that Robert Reich - whom people around here look up to - in his book _Supercapitalism_ claims that capitalism and democracy need each other in order to work, which means that capitalism can't be allowed to take over policy and government which in turn can't place limits on democracy.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I'm sorry. I re-read your post and got it. That's what happens when I don't read things carefully. :|


No, I'm the one who should apologize. That's what happens when I don't announce it as


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I wonder how the police powers that be justify this. It's not as if officers with above intelligence would be paid anymore, so it can't be for fiscal reasons. Maybe it's to do with the idea that people of lower intelligence would be more likely to 'cop' the danger and more repugnant aspects of the job (pardon the pun)?


I think it has more to do with it being easier to order such people around. Smart people can cause trouble simply by seeing what's wrong.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I think it has more to do with it being easier to order such people around. Smart people can cause trouble simply by seeing what's wrong.


I think you're onto something there, Purl.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I can't comment on your whole message because I don't know as much about its content as I should. Most of it sound valid to me.
> 
> I will say that Robert Reich - whom people around here look up to - in his book _Supercapitalism_ claims that capitalism and democracy need each other in order to work, which means that capitalism can't be allowed to take over policy and government which in turn can't place limits on democracy.


This is totally untrue. It is more a reflection of Reich's personal biases, belief systems, etc. They don't need each other in the sense that one can exist without the other. However, I can say that Capitalism without strong Democratic controls can/will turn into total Fascism. Adam Smith, an author of Capitalism even way back then noted that capitalism would be a social disaster without strong controls placed on it. Democracy does not need capitalism to work at all. It is a political system that would work wonderfully well with socialism and even barter. If this is what Reich meant, then I could agree with him. BTW, I have read many of his articles that have been very good.

I haven't read Th. Pikety's book on Capitalism but have read some lengthy reviews. He, too, as a mainstream economist set out to explore capitalism and came away with major criticisms of the system. Interesting that anyone with an open mind about the system sees the foibles of it very clearly.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> In your very first paragraph, you quote the author's concern for their "agenda". That's the problem I have. There's an agenda to change everything in our state, one thing at a time. You insinuate that I don't want progressives to have a voice. That's not true. They should have the same voice as anyone else, without trying to force their agenda upon the rest of us.
> 
> Don't think for one minute that democrats are the only ones concerned about what the keystone pipeline will do to our state and our country. That's a lie! Big money comes in and buys advertising to try and convince us that we want the pipeline. Like every state, we've some short sighted people but most of us understand the risks and are against allowing a pipeline to run over the Ogalala Aquifer. It's quite misleading of the author to suggest that her tiny little group are the only ones who care. And yes, it is for the most part, "a tranquil gun filled state". Much more so than say, New York.
> 
> ...


KFN--One of my biggest problems with your comments is that you keep pitting yourself against progressives and populist positions but then want to portray yourself or Nebraskans as having the same concerns. In your process you attack everyone else. And when I think about your critical accusations of the progressive movements of the 1960's, it feels like listening to a person who was never there but looking from the outside with a kind of supercilious judgement about something that was different. Many people who became part of the 'hippy' happening did so because they knew what was didn't work and wasn't good for the people. Their intellectual understanding wasn't always profound, but it clearly was coming from a place that instinctively and intuitively knew that the culture was in the wrong place from a humanistic point of view.

Don't you think that is would be more beneficial to look at how people can form coalitions around the bread and butter issues that affect us all--like the Keystone pipeline.

Believe it or not, I agree with you about ensuring energy for everyone at an equitable cost. I will never be able to have a solar installation as my finances have gone downhill with little chance of them changing much. Further, there are too many trees around my house for solar to work and the trees are not mine to take down. I have been sitting on my town's Environmental Commission for about 3 yrs now and the rest of the Commission is buying into a funded program for promoting solar with no regard to what it will do the exorbitant electrical bills of the rest of us who cannot participate in that program. Without public utilities coming back there is no way that people in my position will ever be able to even have electricity!

A real look at minimum wage increases show that raising wages has actually increased business as people can afford to buy more. Doesn't it make sense to subscribe to the adage that when you lift the boat from the bottom, everyone rises. That is what unions did with their ability to increase wages and benefits.

So if you see yourself as a reasonable and thinking person, it seems more advantageous to find points of similarity to work from?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> In your very first paragraph, you quote the author's concern for their "agenda". That's the problem I have. There's an agenda to change everything in our state, one thing at a time. You insinuate that I don't want progressives to have a voice. That's not true. They should have the same voice as anyone else, without trying to force their agenda upon the rest of us.
> 
> Don't think for one minute that democrats are the only ones concerned about what the keystone pipeline will do to our state and our country. That's a lie! Big money comes in and buys advertising to try and convince us that we want the pipeline. Like every state, we've some short sighted people but most of us understand the risks and are against allowing a pipeline to run over the Ogalala Aquifer. It's quite misleading of the author to suggest that her tiny little group are the only ones who care. And yes, it is for the most part, "a tranquil gun filled state". Much more so than say, New York.
> 
> ...


Even when we read the same article, we don't read the same thing. 1) Everyone who's doing something they feel strongly about has an agenda. The word may not be to your liking, but it's really neutral - a list of things we want to accomplish. The conservative agenda in your state is not explicit because since most people automatically vote Republican, they don't have to let you know what they plan to do. If you don't want to know what the Progressive agenda is, you'll never find out what they really stand for and will have to depend on the Conservative BS about that.

2) She didn't say only Progressives could defeat the pipeline. To repeat:


> We originally came together to stop the Keystone XL pipeline from crossing our Sand Hills and Ogallala Aquifer, a cause that has brought together farmers, ranchers, urbanites, Republicans and Democrats, students and senior citizens. We are still fighting the tar sands pipeline, but we have expanded our mission to clean energy, environmental justice and the local food movement.


You seem to have missed this, which is the Progressive agenda in Nebraska. Not the Common Core, not making people dependent on government. Where does it say that only Democrats or only the author's little group are the only ones who care? I didn't see it. You seem to believe that all the things you disapprove of are precisely what progressives have in mind, but as I've pointed out you don't know enough about progressivism to have any idea what they have in mind.

Another thing you don't know is that crime - including murder - has been dropping steadily in New York and is now at its lowest rate since the 1960s, when the FBI began keeping records. This was accomplished without allowing everyone to own guns, which apparently haven't been needed here, regardless of what the NRA tells everyone. A state in which citizens need (or think they need) weapons to defend themselves is a lawless state, one in which criminals and noncriminals can't be expected to control their impulses toward violence.

3) As for the coal-fired electric plant, "Wed been active in pushing for the closure of a North Omaha coal-fired electric plant, which will shut down in 2016 rather than try to meet new emissions standards." This doesn't take credit for the closure, just says they were active in pushing for it. Coal has its own hazards, and if the plant management didn't want to clean up its act, it deserved to be closed. And when have you ever heard liberals declare that only the wealthy should have electricity? In California, some years back, Enron somehow became the entity that controlled electrical power and made a huge mess of it. Enron's CEO was Kenneth Lay, "Kenny Boy" to George W. Bush. It was these guy who thought it was funny that old people were being left sweltering in summer because of blackout periods, not any annoying little bunch of progressives.

As a side note, the film "The Smartest Guys in the Room" will absolutely show you how *right* you are about crony capitalists.

4) As for my "rant," I brought up Christianity because you once said your religious beliefs were conservative, and I was trying to show that conservative religious beliefs have nothing - nothing - to do with conservative political ideology. I know you have no connection with D&P; I used them as an example of what I just wrote.

Okay, no more of my "rant."


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> This is totally untrue. It is more a reflection of Reich's personal biases, belief systems, etc. They don't need each other in the sense that one can exist without the other. However, I can say that Capitalism without strong Democratic controls can/will turn into total Fascism. Adam Smith, an author of Capitalism even way back then noted that capitalism would be a social disaster without strong controls placed on it. Democracy does not need capitalism to work at all. It is a political system that would work wonderfully well with socialism and even barter. If this is what Reich meant, then I could agree with him. BTW, I have read many of his articles that have been very good.
> 
> I haven't read Th. Pikety's book on Capitalism but have read some lengthy reviews. He, too, as a mainstream economist set out to explore capitalism and came away with major criticisms of the system. Interesting that anyone with an open mind about the system sees the foibles of it very clearly.


If I can manage to locate Reich's book, which I misplaced before I could even get into it, I'll give you all of what he says. It made sense to me when I read it.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

tamarque said:


> KFN--I think you are short sighted in your understanding of the social dynamics that resulted in the pathological rise of narcissism in our culture. By your repeated attacks on the idea that people have the right to feel good about themselves it shows your lack of understanding of the movements of the late '60's and '70's. It also shows your contempt for people who dared to question the establishment order of things, including social relationships. What many of the people back then were revolting against was the repression and fear of McCarthyism which demanded people act like plastic robots and dutifully goose step to a single concept of reality.
> 
> One of the concepts practices was collective decision-making. The hardest part of it was for people to overcome their deep seated individualism which already was deeply entrenched in our society. I cannot speak to the many hours spent discussing and arguing about individualism as a pathology and how destructive it was to collective political, economic and social functioning. Actually, let me say bluntly that you have it completely backwards. Mainstream society wanted conformance and still does. But it promotes it as individuality. Yes, you can choose a blue car or a red car. Whoopy do!
> 
> ...


Love my Tamarque. First I went to your website and you are a magnificent designer and crafter. Stunning. Second, I see that you are/were a hippy which is great. And third, actually for anyone - did you read Christopher Lasch? I did centuries ago and I think he would agree with your analysis. When I studied Marxism, I remember learning about "no real choices - only the 36 flavors - and false needs. Kept me out of advertisement which was my first love - copywriting - but I could not do it with a good conscious.

Lastly, can you turn your designs into adult-sized. There was a baby sweater I adored with cap sleeves. And if that is your Grand, I am totally jealous.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> If I can manage to locate Reich's book, which I misplaced before I could even get into it, I'll give you all of what he says. It made sense to me when I read it.


He makes excellent sense and has abundant historical data to back up his conclusions.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> He makes excellent sense and has abundant historical data to back up his conclusions.


And he writes so clearly that anyone can understand his economics, not an easy subject to make clear.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> And he writes so clearly that anyone can understand his economics, not an easy subject to make clear.


That is true. So it Paul Craig Roberts who I also tend to read.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> You seem to have missed this, which is the Progressive agenda in Nebraska. Not the Common Core, not making people dependent on government. Where does it say that only Democrats or only the author's little group are the only ones who care? I didn't see it. You seem to believe that all the things you disapprove of are precisely what progressives have in mind, but as I've pointed out you don't know enough about progressivism to have any idea what they have in mind.
> 
> Another thing you don't know is that crime - including murder - has been dropping steadily in New York and is now at its lowest rate since the 1960s, when the FBI began keeping records. This was accomplished without allowing everyone to own guns, which apparently haven't been needed here, regardless of what the NRA tells everyone. A state in which citizens need (or think they need) weapons to defend themselves is a lawless state, one in which criminals and noncriminals can't be expected to control their impulses toward violence.
> 
> ...


Good parsing of the argument


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

SQM said:


> Love my Tamarque. First I went to your website and you are a magnificent designer and crafter. Stunning. Second, I see that you are/were a hippy which is great. And third, actually for anyone - did you read Christopher Lasch? I did centuries ago and I think he would agree with your analysis. When I studied Marxism, I remember learning about "no real choices - only the 36 flavors - and false needs. Kept me out of advertisement which was my first love - copywriting - but I could not do it with a good conscious.
> 
> Lastly, can you turn your designs into adult-sized. There was a baby sweater I adored with cap sleeves. And if that is your Grand, I am totally jealous.


Backwards: Yes that is my Grand who is now a beautiful 4!

I will have to look at what I had on the site with a cap sleeve. I was scheduled to do a workshop on a toddler miter square sweater which may/may not happen due to Shirley's health. Is the miter square sweater the one you are talking about? Shirley wanted me to make an adult pattern of that one. Some of my other baby sweaters would also be good in adult sizes.

Thank you for your appreciation of my craft work. Hope you 'liked' my page.

FYI, I was never a hippy, except across the back of mine (lol). However, I was very political and spent years studying and organizing. And we read Marx amongst many others such as Fanon, etc. Very exciting and hopeful days those were. We sure need some more of that progressive collective consciousness today.

Consciousness carries with it responsibility. My daughter once told me she hated me because I made her know to much--she wanted me to let her be a dumb teenager like everyone else. Not in my life! I understand how it affected your choice of work. That was a good thing.

And I am not familiar with Christopher Lasch. Can you give a brief description of who he is and his issues?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

tamarque said:


> Backwards: Yes that is my Grand who is now a beautiful 4!
> 
> I will have to look at what I had on the site with a cap sleeve. I was scheduled to do a workshop on a toddler miter square sweater which may/may not happen due to Shirley's health. Is the miter square sweater the one you are talking about? Shirley wanted me to make an adult pattern of that one. Some of my other baby sweaters would also be good in adult sizes.
> 
> ...


I will go back and look for the like button. Christopher Lasch wrote the popular book - at least in my house - The Culture of Narcissism. I am not sure if his analysis still holds up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Lasch


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

The baby sweater is purple with a dark green band. Looks like chenille??????


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> I will go back and look for the like button. Christopher Lasch wrote the popular book - at least in my house - The Culture of Narcissism. I am not sure if his analysis still holds up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Lasch


I am hoping that Tamarque can still teach. I am trying to work it out for her. Her work is absolutely wonderful and she is a true artist.The one I hope she can teach is the Toddlers sweater in red. I think we can workit out and I sure do hope so. I still want her to design an adult sweater using this theme. I will be the first one to knit it and I NEVER work with patterns. It is absolutely gorgeous. check out her blog under her posts.

You must check out her facebook pages - I am not sure whether she has a blog

here is the link- I am waiting to hear whether my idea will work for her. I sure do hope so.

http://www.facebook.com/MunchinGoatDesigns


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I am hoping that Tamarque can still teach. I am trying to work it out for her. Her work is absolutely wonderful and she is a true artist.The one I hope she can teach is the Toddlers sweater in red. I think we can workit out and I sure do hope so. I still want her to design an adult sweater using this theme. I will be the first one to knit it and I NEVER work with patterns. It is absolutely gorgeous. check out her blog under her posts.
> 
> You must check out her facebook pages - I am not sure whether she has a blog
> 
> ...


Our Tamarque is certainly an amazing talent. That knit art was beyond the beyond. T - do you hand or machine knit?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Backwards: Yes that is my Grand who is now a beautiful 4!
> 
> I will have to look at what I had on the site with a cap sleeve. I was scheduled to do a workshop on a toddler miter square sweater which may/may not happen due to Shirley's health. Is the miter square sweater the one you are talking about? Shirley wanted me to make an adult pattern of that one. Some of my other baby sweaters would also be good in adult sizes.
> 
> ...


I went to see your Facebook page too but couldn't like it because I'm not on FB and don't ever want to be. Sorry.

But I loved that long lace scarf you show being blocked. Also the striped baby sweater, which is similar to the one I screwed up. Is that the one Designer wants you to design for adults?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I went to see your Facebook page too but couldn't like it because I'm not on FB and don't ever want to be. Sorry.
> 
> But I loved that long lace scarf you show being blocked. Also the striped baby sweater, which is similar to the one I screwed up. Is that the one Designer wants you to design for adults?


Please post that damn little sweater. Let your fans know the name of the thread.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Love my Tamarque. First I went to your website and you are a magnificent designer and crafter. Stunning. Second, I see that you are/were a hippy which is great. And third, actually for anyone - did you read Christopher Lasch? I did centuries ago and I think he would agree with your analysis. When I studied Marxism, I remember learning about "no real choices - only the 36 flavors - and false needs. Kept me out of advertisement which was my first love - copywriting - but I could not do it with a good conscious.
> 
> Lastly, can you turn your designs into adult-sized. There was a baby sweater I adored with cap sleeves. And if that is your Grand, I am totally jealous.


You're funny! You despised her when she spoke of Israel. Have you forgotten?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> That is true. So it Paul Craig Roberts who I also tend to read.


Aren't the two antithetical? I've posted links from Roberts and practically got run out on a rail. I suppose, now they'll love him.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You seem to have missed this, which is the Progressive agenda in Nebraska. Not the Common Core, not making people dependent on government. Where does it say that only Democrats or only the author's little group are the only ones who care? I didn't see it. You seem to believe that all the things you disapprove of are precisely what progressives have in mind, but as I've pointed out you don't know enough about progressivism to have any idea what they have in mind.
> 
> Another thing you don't know is that crime - including murder - has been dropping steadily in New York and is now at its lowest rate since the 1960s, when the FBI began keeping records. This was accomplished without allowing everyone to own guns, which apparently haven't been needed here, regardless of what the NRA tells everyone. A state in which citizens need (or think they need) weapons to defend themselves is a lawless state, one in which criminals and noncriminals can't be expected to control their impulses toward violence.
> 
> ...


I've never said that religious beliefs are conservative, mine or anybody else's. IMO, religious beliefs are neither conservative nor liberal. Perhaps, you have me mistaken with someone else.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You're funny! You despised her when she spoke of Israel. Have you forgotten?


I do not think her feelings about Israel is all Tamarque is. She seems to be a bit more dimensional. When we meet, I am sure we can have a great time and need not stress our differences. I find her critique and yours on capitalism interesting. I am sure we all will have many things to talk about other than Israel. Wish you could come.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You're funny! You despised her when she spoke of Israel. Have you forgotten?


Are you suggesting that it's not possible to like someone's knitting because you disagree with her foreign policy? That sounds a lot like a certain D&P member. Actually, it sounds like many of them.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I've never said that religious beliefs are conservative, mine or anybody else's. IMO, religious beliefs are neither conservative nor liberal. Perhaps, you have me mistaken with someone else.


As I recall, when you were introducing yourself to us, one of the reasons you gave for calling yourself a conservative was your deep belief in Christianity. It was a very long time ago, so I doubt that I could find it.

And I don't think anyone could mistake you for someone else. :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I do not think her feelings about Israel is all Tamarque is. She seems to be a bit more dimensional. When we meet, I am sure we can have a great time and need not stress our differences. I find her critique and yours on capitalism interesting. I am sure we all will have many things to talk about other than Israel. Wish you could come.


I apologize for being snarky. It was rude of me.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> As I recall, when you were introducing yourself to us, one of the reasons you gave for calling yourself a conservative was your deep belief in Christianity. It was a very long time ago, so I doubt that I could find it.
> 
> And I don't think anyone could mistake you for someone else. :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Your recollection is incorrect. I may have called myself a conservative Christian, but I have never linked the two or suggested that they are exclusive to each other. I've known conservative Jews and democratic Christians.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Are you suggesting that it's not possible to like someone's knitting because you disagree with her foreign policy? That sounds a lot like a certain D&P member. Actually, it sounds like many of them.


No, it was the "Love my Tarmarque" remark that I was being snarky about. I was bitchy. I apologized. I was wrong.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

tamarque said:


> Glad it might help. About 2 yrs ago when I wanted a new couch I began to look for one. Missed a nice one when the owner didn't believe I was coming and gave it to someone else. The next week another one turned up, much closer to where I live and it was brand new. The owner had a bug in his bonnet about it. Turns out to be a very expensive couch that was feather filled --no chemicals. I could have sold it for $900 on craigslist but decided to keep it. It is valued a lot more than that. So just keep looking and asking for what you need. Eventually it all seems to come.


I think it could be an interesting and amusing thing to get involved in. I'm not very acquisitive so I don't own as much stuff as a lot of other people. I think what I have to barter is me, and some of the things I know how to do.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I apologize for being snarky. It was rude of me.


I did something I should never have done, and now I'm sorry. I went back to your earliest messages to see whether I could find the one I thought I remembered, about you being conservative because of religion. Instead I was reminded of how you were back then.

If you think you were snarky to SQM tonight, see what you wrote to Patty, Cheeky, Susanmos, and more a year or so ago.

I'm going to put on some Sinatra to get that out of my head.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Your recollection is incorrect. I may have called myself a conservative Christian, but I have never linked the two or suggested that they are exclusive to each other. I've known conservative Jews and democratic Christians.


I assume you mean politically conservative Jews. "Conservative Judaism" is one of the main branches of modern Judaism, and its members are rarely conservative.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> This message of yours is probably the most interesting one I've ever read. The author begins by saying "Nebraska is my home and ... I love its people and its geography." Why should she have to leave? "If we leave, who will voice our agenda?" Do you want this minority to have no voice at all?
> 
> And then she outlines the progressive agenda: "We originally came together to stop the Keystone XL pipeline from crossing our Sand Hills and Ogallala Aquifer, a cause that has brought together farmers, ranchers, urbanites, Republicans and Democrats, students and senior citizens. We are still fighting the tar sands pipeline, but we have expanded our mission to clean energy, environmental justice and the local food movement." Horrors, you must band together to chase these people out of your tranquil gun-filled state!
> 
> ...


And to me, this is one of your most heart warming posts. I get a real boost when I witness the voice of reason. Reason seems to have flown the coup in many respects. Brava PP.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Well, hard to imagine they admit this, but not surprising. It takes people with little imagination and little independence to do that job and not think about what they are really doing. Also people who get off on having the power of the gun and the right to use it. I found the same thing in the prisons. Guards who retained any sense of human decency never lasted on the job because of the abuse that was demanded of them.
> 
> Thinking back to Viet Nam when we still had a draft, many people of higher intelligence and more schooling were being drafted. Lots more thinking and analysis and rebellion within the ranks against the atrocities being committed in their name and what they needed to do to stay alive. Today the volunteer army fills its ranks with people with little education, little understanding of the world around them, and lots of poverty.
> 
> Years ago I had a group of young boys that hung around my apartment. They were all African-american or Puerto Rican, growing up poor and working class. They would talk a lot of shit but also talked about their lives from their perspective. I recall talk of joining the police because they could get all the free weed and not be arrested. I see that mentality in various ways still ongoing. But added to that today, police salaries are extremely high, at least in NY.


Ah yes, the power of wearing a gun. I truly gag when I see police officers out and about, walking that swagger that they do because they're wearing so much junk on their belts. They have to hold their arms in an abducted position to accommodate it all and that must feel so good to some of them.

Whenever I had the displeasure of their presence in my office I'd fantasise about grabbing one of their guns, cocking the trigger and aiming at one of their foreheads. Naughty me.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> No, I'm the one who should apologize. That's what happens when I don't announce it as


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I think it has more to do with it being easier to order such people around. Smart people can cause trouble simply by seeing what's wrong.


And that's exactly what's biting the police on the backside right now!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> I haven't read Th. Pikety's book on Capitalism but have read some lengthy reviews. He, too, as a mainstream economist set out to explore capitalism and came away with major criticisms of the system. Interesting that anyone with an open mind about the system sees the foibles of it very clearly.


As does Marx. His take is most interesting.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

SQM said:


> I will go back and look for the like button. Christopher Lasch wrote the popular book - at least in my house - The Culture of Narcissism. I am not sure if his analysis still holds up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Lasch


Oh, I am aware of that book. Actually I posted a link to a review of the book a few days ago right here. It was what KFN took issue with.

Will appreciate you Liking my Facebook page. Everyone else, too.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> As does Marx. His take is most interesting.


yes, goes without saying


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I think it could be an interesting and amusing thing to get involved in. I'm not very acquisitive so I don't own as much stuff as a lot of other people. I think what I have to barter is me, and some of the things I know how to do.


Why not try promoting barter. Let us know how it works for you.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Couple of articles this a.m. on the police backlash in NYC. These articles are typical of the efforts to apologize for them which really irks the crap out of me. However, it is important to understand the white washing of the problem, pun absolutely intended.

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/why-twisted-politics-white-resentment-our-real-policerace-problem?akid=12648.276957.ilbUW1&rd=1&src=newsletter1029671&t=7

Among the many links in this article there is one for a Salon article by Joan Walsh--more of the same apology. "Oh, poor cops are frightened, too."

The first article's ending is the most important point, looking at the systemic issues behind the behavior but the author barely notes this and buries it at the end. We really need to be sharply aware of how even liberal writers still pander to the existing power relationships and avoid looking at the human abuse in this light--which is the only meaningful way to look at it.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> And to me, this is one of your most heart warming posts. I get a real boost when I witness the voice of reason. Reason seems to have flown the coup in many respects. Brava PP.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Well put, Poor Purl.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for the information. What comes to mind? There are no simple answers to complex questions. We all bring preconceived notions to the issues, but who has the ability to open their minds? How do we act to change what 'common' sense tells us is wrong?



tamarque said:


> Couple of articles this a.m. on the police backlash in NYC. These articles are typical of the efforts to apologize for them which really irks the crap out of me. However, it is important to understand the white washing of the problem, pun absolutely intended.
> 
> http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/why-twisted-politics-white-resentment-our-real-policerace-problem?akid=12648.276957.ilbUW1&rd=1&src=newsletter1029671&t=7
> 
> ...


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Oh, I am aware of that book. Actually I posted a link to a review of the book a few days ago right here. It was what KFN took issue with.
> 
> Will appreciate you Liking my Facebook page. Everyone else, too.


Don't have Facebook but I do love your FB pages and you are so talented! Your knitting is perfect, colourful and provides a smorgasbord of inspiration. So for what it's worth, LIKE, LIKE, LIKE!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Thank you for the information. What comes to mind? There are no simple answers to complex questions. We all bring preconceived notions to the issues, but who has the ability to open their minds? How do we act to change what 'common' sense tells us is wrong?


It's a perplexing question and one that won't easily be answered. Police forces, particularly in the west are unfairly powerful organisations who have great influence in their relative justice systems and the backing of their relative governments. The question might be better phrased "who has to act to change what 'common' sense tells us is wrong?"


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

I've been lurking for a while, digesting some of the thoughtful and informed comments by everyone, particularly KFN and tamarque. I have not read a lot of books on the subject so I don't feel qualified to expound on the writings of social or economic critics/experts. I just have my own observations and opinions. 

I agree that our culture has become somewhat narcissistic and acquisitive - people always want more. But the idea that our culture has changed in some dramatic and fundamental way doesn't resonate with me. The people I know, whether family, friends or the ladies on KP, just don't fit that perception. My circle of friends and family are certainly a diverse mix and some do strive for material goods; others are more focused on the nuts and bolts of daily life, trying to make ends meet, struggling to pay the bills and worrying about how to pay for a decent education for their children. Their values are, for the most part, solid and what might be considered old-fashioned. Except for the rather predictable "me, me, me" of adolescence, I don't see excessive narcissism as prevalent. What I do see is a sense of frustration and worry over the future.

Designer's pragmatic ideas fall in line with my own. Let the authors sell their books as they analyze and pontificate. I care about their opinions only to the extent that they provide clues to the root cause of our national problems. I'm not convinced that they've got it right, either. After all, they are offering their opinions, nothing more. We are not going to replace capitalism any time soon, nor are we going to eliminate the overwhelming push from Madison Avenue to buy more, more, more. I don't see any major change in our political system, either. We must work hard to make the economy and government that we have work for everyone.

Money in politics is my hot-button issue; I see it as the absolute root cause of many of our ailments. Until we remove that corruption, our economy will continue to spiral downward for the majority of Americans because what we have now is capitalism UNCHECKED. We must restore a balance, where the good parts of capitalism continue to thrive but where there is also fairness and prosperity for everyone. I definitely subscribe to Reich's analysis, which he supports with solid historical numbers, and which not only make sense but can be seen. Taxation needs to be corrected so the flow of money does not all go to the very top. Businesses will never allow this to happen as long as they can buy legislators, so we need to cut off their corrupting influence and let the people's voices be heard. Until this happens, we cannot hope to make progress on serious problems in our economy, education, infrastructure, climate change, etc.

We need free and fair elections without gerrymandering, voter suppression and the flood of advertising that functionally markets candidates, often by use of blatant lies (both parties do this). Publicly funded elections, with strict limits on contributions and severe penalties for those who accept bribes, is my ideal. Accountability must be restored. Anyone running for office is a politician but we need to keep them honest and we must demand more of them. I recall the "debates" of 2012, which were laughable. Despite pointed questions by the commentators, the candidates, all of them, responded with nothing more than pre-written talking points that often had nothing to do with the question being asked. Ridiculous and fundamentally insulting to voters. This has got to change so we must stop being complacent and change it.

Now to my soapbox on activism. 

I can't change the world or much of my little piece of it, but I do what I can. I am politically active in my community and state and I have talked about it before. It isn't enough to chatter about these things endlessly; talk is cheap and as long as we allow ourselves to be distracted and divided, our problems only get worse. Today is the day to write your congressman, to join with others online in supporting the groups who are working to effect change, to help raise funds in the fight against Citizens United. There are many of groups who are working on this and they represent a growing groundswell of public outcry against it. Join the tide. This will not be an easy fight because the opposition (big business and the very wealthy with deep pockets) have far easier access to money. Pick one whose mission you agree with and join the fight in whatever way you can, big or small. We have to stop thinking in terms of what "people should" do and start asking ourselves, "what can I do?" And then do it.

I support Wolf-Pac because they are working toward constitutional amendments to overturn Citizens United and also to establish publicly funded elections with limitations on outside contributions. It's a start. If you want to know more about them, go to Wolf-Pac.com. It's also easy to find other groups interested in this critical issue if their message isn't right for you.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I assume you mean politically conservative Jews. "Conservative Judaism" is one of the main branches of modern Judaism, and its members are rarely conservative.


Note the lower case "c".


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I've been lurking for a while, digesting some of the thoughtful and informed comments by everyone, particularly KFN and tamarque. I have not read a lot of books on the subject so I don't feel qualified to expound on the writings of social or economic critics/experts. I just have my own observations and opinions.
> 
> I agree that our culture has become somewhat narcissistic and acquisitive - people always want more. But the idea that our culture has changed in some dramatic and fundamental way doesn't resonate with me. The people I know, whether family, friends or the ladies on KP, just don't fit that perception. My circle of friends and family are certainly a diverse mix and some do strive for material goods; others are more focused on the nuts and bolts of daily life, trying to make ends meet, struggling to pay the bills and worrying about how to pay for a decent education for their children. Their values are, for the most part, solid and what might be considered old-fashioned. Except for the rather predictable "me, me, me" of adolescence, I don't see excessive narcissism as prevalent. What I do see is a sense of frustration and worry over the future.
> 
> ...


Hear hear!!!!!!!!! we are really on the same page. I am not an American as you all know. I don't get involved in the quotations, and don't know a lot of the people who are being quoted. But my ideas are much like Green's and a lot of you as well. Sometimes someone looking in from outside might give something worthwhile to these types of discussions.

Not for a moment do I think I have the right to criticize or tell anyone from another Country what they should do. My posts I hope are just the views of someone from outside who cares and who is a Progressive thinking person, and certainly completely in the same mindset as most on this thread.

I have thought about what we have been discussing and have expressed my opinion for what it is worth. I am thankful that I have been so accepted here.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

"""Let me set your mind at ease about one issue, Christianity. You seem to think that only conservatives are believers. This is very far from the case. There are huge numbers of believing Chistians who regard liberalism as the system Jesus would have preferred. You just need to see how seriously the D&P people take the trappings of Christianity without any attention to the words of their savior. You may not even be aware that a number of us are believing Christians, because they keep that part of themselves in their hearts and in their souls and don't insult their faith by paying it lip service."""
=============================
You are expressing my feelings as a Christian, strongly liberal and progressive. My feelings about Christianity are much the same as you state above. I believe it is how I live, not how I speak. not much else to say about it. Thanks for this post - it is exactly how I feel.

One thing I don't completely agree with is that all the D and P people are the same. There are lots there who act their faith in my opinion - Some who in my opinion don't because of their close minded feelings about anything and everything Progressive (which I doubt they understand) or liberal. Things are too black and white. I don't agree with that type of Christianity but then they don't agree with mine. I figure I have to live my life as I believe I should - they will do the same. I just hope Iam not as close minded as those I grew up with and some on the other thread.

enough from me --- I am feeling so much better and will have to find out exactly what transpired and any negative results from the infection when I see the doctor on Wednesday. Until then I am taking it easy and spending far too much time on the computer. Did some water color cards last night which was fun. ttyal.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Hear hear!!!!!!!!! we are really on the same page. I am not an American as you all know. I don't get involved in the quotations, and don't know a lot of the people who are being quoted. But my ideas are much like Green's and a lot of you as well. Sometimes someone looking in from outside might give something worthwhile to these types of discussions.
> 
> Not for a moment do I think I have the right to criticize or tell anyone from another Country what they should do. My posts I hope are just the views of someone from outside who cares and who is a Progressive thinking person, and certainly completely in the same mindset as most on this thread.
> 
> I have thought about what we have been discussing and have expressed my opinion for what it is worth. I am thankful that I have been so accepted here.


I don't care whether you are American or Canadian - your comments are sensible and well-thought-out. I value you input and hope you will continue to offer your insights.

By the way, I'm so glad you have rejoined us and hope you're feeling better. Be well, Designer.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I don't care whether you are American or Canadian - your comments are sensible and well-thought-out. I value you input and hope you will continue to offer your insights.
> 
> By the way, I'm so glad you have rejoined us and hope you're feeling better. Be well, Designer.


Thank you --- I feel all your caring thoughts. It is helpful and heartwarming.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Thank you --- I feel all your caring thoughts. It is helpful and heartwarming.


Well, be sure you take your meds, too.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

I think there's an element in racism no one has brought up, and that is the fear of the other. To the extent we find archeological evidence, we see that humans identify humans who aren't part of their groups as other than themselves and therefor a threat to be eliminated. Killing the other, raping, pillaging and enslaving all have a long history. 

We've never really stopped doing this. What's going on in the Middle East is a great example. Also, Asians and
African-Americans stand out and are super easy to identify as the other. We are an inheritably violent and separatist race. I see this as a tremendous obstacle to an integrated world and can only believe this will change if those who are less fearful of the other reproduce in greater numbers until the ultra fearful are the exception rather than the norm.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> This is only my theory. I really do think police officers are influenced less by their own past and present experiences and more by those of their colleagues (mostly related anecdotally with the inevitable embellishments), and of society's (through media) which psychologically forms a set of presumptions about varying groups of people and the way they are EXPECTED to react rather than the way they DO react. This sets up a 'planned response' for said groups of people which does not vary from situation to situation.
> 
> Insofar as black people are concerned, they are viewed with suspicion right off the bat, and there is no room for compromise. Police action is more likely, therefore, to be aggressive and lead to violence. We see it here with our police treatment of our indigenous people. Their treatment is very, very different than the treatment of non indigenous.
> 
> ...


What about the fact that criminals are more heavily armed than they ever have been? Police step out on the street in a greater state of "battle mode" because that's part of what they face. I'm not saying this is a good thing, but IMO, it's an element we need to consider when we talk about the behavior of police officers.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Changed my mind


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I think there's an element in racism no one has brought up, and that is the fear of the other. To the extent we find archeological evidence, we see that humans identify humans who aren't part of their groups as other than themselves and therefor a threat to be eliminated. Killing the other, raping, pillaging and enslaving all have a long history.
> 
> We've never really stopped doing this. What's going on in the Middle East is a great example. Also, Asians and
> African-Americans stand out and are super easy to identify as the other. We are an inheritably violent and separatist race. I see this as a tremendous obstacle to an integrated world and can only believe this will change if those who are less fearful of the other reproduce in greater numbers until the ultra fearful are the exception rather than the norm.


Exactly my spin on things. It is inbred in us to be afraid of the "stranger", which was a survival tool. No amount of books, theories or politics is going to change this biological imperative. However, humans are rumored to have reasoning capacities but I fear that biology trumps those.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> What about the fact that criminals are more heavily armed than they ever have been? Police step out on the street in a greater state of "battle mode" because that's part of what they face. I'm not saying this is a good thing, but IMO, it's an element we need to consider when we talk about the behavior of police officers.


I agree that police face extraordinary dangers because of our heavily armed populace. It's a fact of life in today's US.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

tamarque said:


> KFN--I think you are short sighted in your understanding of the social dynamics that resulted in the pathological rise of narcissism in our culture. By your repeated attacks on the idea that people have the right to feel good about themselves it shows your lack of understanding of the movements of the late '60's and '70's. It also shows your contempt for people who dared to question the establishment order of things, including social relationships. What many of the people back then were revolting against was the repression and fear of McCarthyism which demanded people act like plastic robots and dutifully goose step to a single concept of reality.
> 
> One of the concepts practices was collective decision-making. The hardest part of it was for people to overcome their deep seated individualism which already was deeply entrenched in our society. I cannot speak to the many hours spent discussing and arguing about individualism as a pathology and how destructive it was to collective political, economic and social functioning. Actually, let me say bluntly that you have it completely backwards. Mainstream society wanted conformance and still does. But it promotes it as individuality. Yes, you can choose a blue car or a red car. Whoopy do!
> 
> ...


I'm full of questions as I catch up this morning. What about the shift from religion to materialism as a major focus on how we live now? I don't particularly want to return to life in the US as it was a hundred years ago but neither do I consider the focus on materialism to be a particularly good alternative. It divides us and makes us easier to control. Powered by capitalism, and the endless advertising most people pay attention to, it's no surprise people actually think they need the latest widget to make them happy, and better than the Jonses. A population of people who are materialistic wage slaves is a great benefit to capitalism. People who are focused on themselves are not people who are going to band together to address the value of a society based on capitalism and narcissism


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I'm full of questions as I catch up this morning. What about the shift from religion to materialism as a major focus on how we live now? I don't particularly want to return to life in the US as it was a hundred years ago but neither do I consider the focus on materialism to be a particularly good alternative. It divides us and makes us easier to control. Powered by capitalism, and the endless advertising most people pay attention to, it's no surprise people actually think they need the latest widget to make them happy, and better than the Jonses. A population of people who are materialistic wage slaves is a great benefit to capitalism. People who are focused on themselves are not people who are society based on capitalism and narcissism.


Good luck pushing that river of materialism back uphill, Maid.

Society changes. The question is, how do we solve our common problems?


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Good luck pushing that river of materialism back uphill, Maid.
> 
> Society changes. The question is, how do we solve our common problems?


No, I'm not going to imitate Sisyphus. How do we unite to solve our common problems? I think we have to take on the hard job of overcoming the kind of narcissism tamarque has addressed.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> How do we unite to solve our common problems?


One committed person at a time, reaching out to like-minded, committed people.

Narcissism is NOT the root of our problems. It's greed. IMO.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> And to me, this is one of your most heart warming posts. I get a real boost when I witness the voice of reason. Reason seems to have flown the coup in many respects. Brava PP.


Thank you.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> As does Marx. His take is most interesting.


Marx had an open mind about capitalism? Maybe Groucho; not Karl.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> One committed person at a time, reaching out to like-minded, committed people.
> 
> Narcissism is NOT the root of our problems. It's greed. IMO.


DGreen
NO DOUBT, it is greed.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> NO DOUBT, it is greed.


Hey, Huck, what are the ladies in your avatar saying?

(I'll bet it's funny, whatever it is)


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Couple of articles this a.m. on the police backlash in NYC. These articles are typical of the efforts to apologize for them which really irks the crap out of me. However, it is important to understand the white washing of the problem, pun absolutely intended.
> 
> http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/why-twisted-politics-white-resentment-our-real-policerace-problem?akid=12648.276957.ilbUW1&rd=1&src=newsletter1029671&t=7
> 
> ...


I found this to be a very good article and not quite deserving of the criticism you give it. All along, the author reminded us of incidents in which black men were mistreated by the law (the Central Park jogger case being an egregious mistreatment) and the environment in which young black men grew up that could turn them into "crazed cop-killers." Thanks for sharing, however we disagree on its merits. It was well worth reading.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Don't have Facebook but I do love your FB pages and you are so talented! Your knitting is perfect, colourful and provides a smorgasbord of inspiration. So for what it's worth, LIKE, LIKE, LIKE!


Ditto for me, Tamarque. In fact, I can do something better than Facebook offers: LOVE, LOVE, LOVE!


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Going backwards as there has been so much discussion this morning and I can't keep it all in my mind without taking notes, which I didn't.

First Narcisism is not the root of our problems as DGreen says. It is a symptom of the problem. I also do not agree with the one person at a time approach. Decades ago those with a psychological mind set argued that point. But that may only work in a very small circle of people, not in a humongous society with such divergent perspectives and a propaganda machine that out does a dozen Hitlerian societies. 

In talking about creating major change, we need the power of numbers. And it doesn't even have to be that many. History informs us that every revolution involved no more than 10% of the people whether it was the one in 1776 or the one in Cuba in 1958. I assure that number was very minimal in NYS when tracking was just banned--the only State in the Union to withstand the assault of the energy corporations. But it does take sound coordination and a willingness to work in coalitions with groups that may have disagreements. In my small school district 18 or us, from radical left to reactionary right defeated a $50 million dollar bond by staying focused and pooling skills, time and resources. We had the largest election turn out ever in the district and this in the dead of winter with snow, ice and freezing temps.

On religion: There was a very strong reason that church and state were deemed separate during the constitutional era of the US. Memories were strong about the consequences of autocratic religious control of various countries. And given so many different religious groups left Europe and now had to figure out how to live together it was a big move to create this separation. What that means is that people are free to develop their own spiritual practice but they do not have the right to impose it on others or to try and control the country.

Every spiritual practice that I know about has some core points of agreement. They all promote love as the guiding principle. They all talk about caring for the poor/unfortunate. They all talk about and promote living in communities that have empathy, caring and sharing. What day you pray, or dont or what your building for prayer looks like or whether you celebrate one holiday or another really has no universal consequence. For that matter most major holidays are all very similar, many of them coming straight out of pagan spirituality.

It seems to me there is something amiss when people need to insert religious commentary in everything they say and do. I don't find that very spiritual and need to wonder why the need to do so instead of simply being the kind of human being your spiritual practice teaches. After all it is what you do, not what you say. I am reminded that one of the goals of Zen Buddhism is to be able to live your life in the present and in a state of mindfulness and mediation. No need to mention your practice to anyone. The behavior is all that counts. 

From MaidinBedlam: "neither do I consider the focus on materialism to be a particularly good alternative. It divides us and makes us easier to control. Powered by capitalism, and the endless advertising most people pay attention to, it's no surprise people actually think they need the latest widget to make them happy, and better than the Jonses. A population of people who are materialistic wage slaves is a great benefit to capitalism. People who are focused on themselves are not people who are going to band together to address the value of a society based on capitalism and narcissism"

Capitalism demands increasing rates of profits for it to be successful. Thus, it promotes materialism as the means to do this. Remember when people realized the concept of built-in obsolescence? 1970's era? People were getting supersaturated with stuff that lasted. Remember when a phone would last 30 yrs? A big peeve of mine today. Today you buy a gizmo for $100 and they immediately want to sell you an insurance policy on it. Why? Because it won't last and even if it does, there is more money to be made with that policy. Capitalism and its exported expansion, Imperialism or economic colonialism, demands total control over all resources and people. 

People need to be controlled because they need to be maintained as cheap labor. They also need to be controlled because as the producers of the wealth, they might just decide they want more of it for their own betterment. The history of people's rebellion against tyranny and abuse is old and I won't repeat it here. We all know that when repression, and oppression reach a point where there is no reason not to rebel, people will do that. The guy who shot the 2 cops in NYC apparently reach that point. As an individual he got lost in his head as we can say, and acted in a violent and random manner. That was his problem--no connection to others. T

And here we come to egoism and narcissism. People lose connection with others. They are so self-absorbed they have no empathy for others. It is crazy making to do this to people, but the 1% and their underlings, have absolutely no respect for the majority of people. It is all about divide and conquer. Racism is about this kind of value judgement against an entire group of people. Fear of them because they have been abused and might just rise up in revolt. Under slavery, the people were constantly planning revolts and often carried them out. But more is the hatred of them because how else can you justify treatment them as less than human and still look at yourself without seeing yourself as the monster that you are. 

It is also critical that people be divided. Isolation prevent people from knowing each others humanity. Laws of misogyny (previously mentioned) served to do this. Later on redlining communities prevented white people from living with people of color. And lots of fear mongering by the controlling elite. The Southern Strategy to turn a strongly Democratic South to conservative Republican was done by promoting racial fear. And it worked because of the existing separation between Black and white communities and the history of racism was well established. Studies and books galore have been written about this and several articles posted here present some of the problem.

If people want change, they need to admit their own prejudices and be willing to deal with them. A big part of that is accepting there is white skin privilege that runs this country. People need to talk to their core values--not just say they have them. When growing up kids were always talking about what they believed and why. We always talked about ethics and how we were living in the world or wanted to live. That is not part of young people's talk today. They have been corralled into isolated little views of themselves and what they can get--be it power or material goods. Everyone is seen as an enemy.

The commie scare has morphed into other scares. But there is always racism.
Today we have Homeland Security. Everything is about fearing what someone else will or can do to you. You are vulnerable and must rely on some labeled authority. You have no personal authority. This is the world we live in and export.

AS for Shirley being Canadian? Canada is a mirror image of the US, functioning under American hegemonic pressure. Yes, there are still some differences, but not a whole lot. Freedoms are removed inch by inch and fear is the tool to get people give them up. 

Okay , enough of me now


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Note the lower case "c".


Right. (But probably not far right.)


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

tamarque said:


> I also do not agree with the one person at a time approach. Decades ago those with a psychological mind set argued that point. But that may only work in a very small circle of people, not in a humongous society with such divergent perspectives and a propaganda machine that out does a dozen Hitlerian societies.
> 
> In talking about creating major change, we need the power of numbers. And it doesn't even have to be that many. History informs us that every revolution involved no more than 10% of the people whether it was the one in 1776 or the one in Cuba in 1958. I assure that number was very minimal in NYS when tracking was just banned--the only State in the Union to withstand the assault of the energy corporations. But it does take sound coordination and a willingness to work in coalitions with groups that may have disagreements. In my small school district 18 or us, from radical left to reactionary right defeated a $50 million dollar bond by staying focused and pooling skills, time and resources. We had the largest election turn out ever in the district and this in the dead of winter with snow, ice and freezing temps.


If one person at a time does not get off their ass and join that coalition, nothing will be accomplished. Of course we need numbers, but where else do they come from than individuals making the decision to act? Please re-read the last paragraph or two of my post.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> """Let me set your mind at ease about one issue, Christianity. You seem to think that only conservatives are believers. This is very far from the case. There are huge numbers of believing Chistians who regard liberalism as the system Jesus would have preferred. You just need to see how seriously the D&P people take the trappings of Christianity without any attention to the words of their savior. You may not even be aware that a number of us are believing Christians, because they keep that part of themselves in their hearts and in their souls and don't insult their faith by paying it lip service."""
> =============================
> You are expressing my feelings as a Christian, strongly liberal and progressive. My feelings about Christianity are much the same as you state above. I believe it is how I live, not how I speak. not much else to say about it. Thanks for this post - it is exactly how I feel.
> 
> ...


Your actions, and the way you treat others, speak for themselves.

So does your art. Have fun with your water colors and rest until you're sure you feel tip-top.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> It's a perplexing question and one that won't easily be answered. Police forces, particularly in the west are unfairly powerful organisations who have great influence in their relative justice systems and the backing of their relative governments. The question might be better phrased "who has to act to change what 'common' sense tells us is wrong?"


IMO, in a western democracy the answer is the common man. (Now, whether they use the ballot box, bribes or weapons, that is the question.)


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Marx had an open mind about capitalism? Maybe Groucho; not Karl.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Very interesting.



tamarque said:


> Going backwards as there has been so much discussion this morning and I can't keep it all in my mind without taking notes, which I didn't.
> 
> First Narcisism is not the root of our problems as DGreen says. It is a symptom of the problem. I also do not agree with the one person at a time approach. Decades ago those with a psychological mind set argued that point. But that may only work in a very small circle of people, not in a humongous society with such divergent perspectives and a propaganda machine that out does a dozen Hitlerian societies.
> 
> ...


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I've been lurking for a while, digesting some of the thoughtful and informed comments by everyone, particularly KFN and tamarque. I have not read a lot of books on the subject so I don't feel qualified to expound on the writings of social or economic critics/experts. I just have my own observations and opinions.
> 
> I agree that our culture has become somewhat narcissistic and acquisitive - people always want more. But the idea that our culture has changed in some dramatic and fundamental way doesn't resonate with me. The people I know, whether family, friends or the ladies on KP, just don't fit that perception. My circle of friends and family are certainly a diverse mix and some do strive for material goods; others are more focused on the nuts and bolts of daily life, trying to make ends meet, struggling to pay the bills and worrying about how to pay for a decent education for their children. Their values are, for the most part, solid and what might be considered old-fashioned. Except for the rather predictable "me, me, me" of adolescence, I don't see excessive narcissism as prevalent. What I do see is a sense of frustration and worry over the future.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Green! I agree with almost all of this. I'd like to see an amendment passed and shall look at pressing our representatives to do so. (However, if they did, it would probably have loopholes as big as the ocean). I just think that calling for a constitutional convention carries too many risks. We've no legal means of limiting what they do, nor legal recourse if they pass something unrelated. Thank you for committing yourself to change.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Hear hear!!!!!!!!! we are really on the same page. I am not an American as you all know. I don't get involved in the quotations, and don't know a lot of the people who are being quoted. But my ideas are much like Green's and a lot of you as well. Sometimes someone looking in from outside might give something worthwhile to these types of discussions.
> 
> Not for a moment do I think I have the right to criticize or tell anyone from another Country what they should do. My posts I hope are just the views of someone from outside who cares and who is a Progressive thinking person, and certainly completely in the same mindset as most on this thread.
> 
> I have thought about what we have been discussing and have expressed my opinion for what it is worth. I am thankful that I have been so accepted here.


Shirley, your opinions are always welcome and you may criticize anyone you wish.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, Green! I agree with almost all of this. I'd like to see an amendment passed and shall look at pressing our representatives to do so. (However, if they did, it would probably have loopholes as big as the ocean). I just think that calling for a constitutional convention carries too many risks. We've no legal means of limiting what they do, nor legal recourse if they pass something unrelated. Thank you for committing yourself to change.


I've arranged for the Arizona chairman of Wolf-Pac to come from Phoenix to speak to our democratic club in a couple of weeks. You are not the only person to raise an alarm about the potential dangers of a constitutional convention and I plan to grill him - hard - on that very issue. As I mentioned, there are quite a few groups working toward overturning Citizens United and if I don't get a satisfactory answer from Wolf-Pac, I'm prepared to find another way to actively work on this critical issue. ALEC has an agenda that includes calling for a constitutional convention - another point of serious concern for all of us since they hold sway in many state legislatures and their proposed amendments (10 of them) are monstrous. We have a fight ahead of us.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> One committed person at a time, reaching out to like-minded, committed people.
> 
> Narcissism is NOT the root of our problems. It's greed. IMO.


 :thumbup:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I think there's an element in racism no one has brought up, and that is the fear of the other. To the extent we find archeological evidence, we see that humans identify humans who aren't part of their groups as other than themselves and therefor a threat to be eliminated. Killing the other, raping, pillaging and enslaving all have a long history.
> 
> We've never really stopped doing this. What's going on in the Middle East is a great example. Also, Asians and
> African-Americans stand out and are super easy to identify as the other. We are an inheritably violent and separatist race. I see this as a tremendous obstacle to an integrated world and can only believe this will change if those who are less fearful of the other reproduce in greater numbers until the ultra fearful are the exception rather than the norm.


General Chit-Chat (non-knitting talk) -> Things are heating up in the world #7 (go to message) Jan 3, 15 01:01:07

tamarque wrote:
Who taught whom--the US or Australia. The american experience of removal of children from Native families was absolutely brutal. For that matte, any removal of populations is always brutal! It really is a form of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

womatnomore wrote:
Absolutely and it aggravates me no end in trying to understand the respective authorities justification for doing so. I'm sure it was borne out of fear. 
______________________________________________

I wrote the last paragraph very recently. I believe racism is more about fear than anything else. The new settlers must have been petrified of the indigenous populations they encountered on arrival in their lands. People so different and alien to anything they were familiar with. Fear in humans often results in horrific and abhorrent acts; visceral reactions to perceived threats rather than considered reactions to actual events. So sad and so lame. No justification at all IMO.

The same continues to this day as evidenced by people who call themselves police officers.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

tamarque said:


> AS for Shirley being Canadian? Canada is a mirror image of the US, functioning under American hegemonic pressure. Yes, there are still some differences, but not a whole lot. Freedoms are removed inch by inch and fear is the tool to get people give them up.
> 
> Okay , enough of me now


I am not sure I agree with you tamarque --- there are a lot of ways that the States influence us but we are actually quite different in some basic ideas and thoughts. I have been following what has happened these last few years in the states and there are very big basic differences. For one we have a 3 party system, Big business might be involved in some ways but not to the extent that they are running the country. Also we have a lot of different approaches to a lot of things. One thing is the gun culture, another is our health care system. Certainly we have Democrats and Liberals but there is not the strong feelings against other parties. I lived in Alberta and am and always was a liberal leaning person, however I liked the people who were Conservative and didn't care that much for our liberal party members and voted Conservative and many of their policies up here were quite acceptable to me. Some I don't agree with . However I usually vote for the person I like.

We are not as powerful and I doubt any of us want to run the world. We are much less rabid in our Politics. that doesn't mean we haven't had bad politicians - quite a few in our Senate and Government have been thrown out and some are being charged. Many of the problems in the States are slowly coming here - I agree to that extent.

Our Political system is entirely different. It is not run by big business and our elections last 3 - 4 months even for F
ederal Politics. There is no automatic system where the Prime minister has another term without being voted in.

It is a party system and most do toe the line. However there are often minority governments as we have 3 parties. The New Democratic Party is often a tie breaker and have a fair amount of power although I can't remember having a New Democratic Feederal Government. Right now they are the opposition party and the liberals are third. 
The time is coming and would have already I think if the leader of the party who was extremely popular had not died of cancer. I am sure that other Canadians have different views from mine. I am extremely proud to be a Canadian - our Country is a good place to live. We certainly, as I said above, are influenced greatly by your country . We are sometimes more aware of what is going on down there than some Americans are. Our CBC Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is quite neutral and an excellent News Source -- I watch it first, then CNN and on extremely rare occasions i check into Fox which personally I think is not afraid of spreading untruths and is very right wing which is the opposite of my beliefs. I also watch other news sources including the British Broadcasting corporation.

So I don't agree at all that we are a mirror image of you. You might be well served if you were a mirror image of us ;-)

That was a joke, ladies, but just think about it. We, over the years have had good Goverments who have to be re elected every term. Our current Prime Minister has a lot of people who don't agree with him, but I believe he is honest and though I don't agree with lots of things about his policies none of them are so bad that I have voted liberal as I have little respect for the recent leaders of that party so that is my opinion.

I realize we don't have history of slavery which is still a cause for disagreement. I have not heard one Canadian 'hate ' someone from another party they way they do on the Political Threads. There are certainly very far right Christians - especially in Alberta but recently members of the 2nd Provincial party broke away and the reason I have heard was that the very far right was not where those elected wanted to go - so they broke away and have joined the Provincial Conservative party. I have no written proof that this was the reason but we have good friends in Alberta who have discussed the reasons for the breakaway with us. I don't know personally that that is the truth but it certainly had a majority of very strong Christians much like those on the other thread. The more liberal people didn't want to be counted in with them.

so- another long winded opinion, but it is how I see our differences . I definitely disagree that we are a mirror image of the US. We are much closer to Australias Political system but still there are differences. I am proud to be a Canadian and would never choose to be anything else, ever.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> . I am proud to be a Canadian and would never choose to be anything else, ever.


Canada is fortunate to have you as a loyal citizen. And we're lucky to have you for a friend who speaks her mind. Last summer as we traveled through Canada, I was very impressed with the friendliness and courtesy of the Canadians I met. Nice place to be.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> What about the fact that criminals are more heavily armed than they ever have been? Police step out on the street in a greater state of "battle mode" because that's part of what they face. I'm not saying this is a good thing, but IMO, it's an element we need to consider when we talk about the behavior of police officers.


And that demonstrates the overt and eager adaptable nature of the beast. The criminals haven't stockpiled armoured tanks, black ops garb and armies of themselves to tackle those in 'battle mode.' We don't see a 'good army' facing a 'bad' one out in the streets (except for rioting situations and even then the 'crims' are only armed with rocks and Molotov cocktails). Nope, that doesn't wash with me at all.

In fact, it's reported that at least one of the innocent victims of the recent siege in Sydney was killed by police fire when they stormed the café where siege was in play. When you view the footage of that, you have to ask the question as to what justified the hundreds of rounds of ammunition fired by multiple police officers with automatic machine guns no less. They went in there to apprehend one man with one shotgun. Seriously?

Until I witness consistently appropriate policing in the field, I have absolutely no empathy for what police officers have to face on a day to day basis. None whatsoever.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Marx had an open mind about capitalism? Maybe Groucho; not Karl.


 :XD: Not saying he did. His analysis though, holds true in many respects IMO.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> And that demonstrates the overt and eager adaptable nature of the beast. The criminals haven't stockpiled armoured tanks, black ops garb and armies of themselves to tackle those in 'battle mode.' We don't see a 'good army' facing a 'bad' one out in the streets (except for rioting situations and even then the 'crims' are only armed with rocks and Molotov cocktails). Nope, that doesn't wash with me at all.
> 
> In fact, it's reported that at least one of the innocent victims of the recent siege in Sydney was killed by police fire when they stormed the café where siege was in play. When you view the footage of that, you have to ask the question as to what justified the hundreds of rounds of ammunition fired by multiple police officers with automatic machine guns no less. They went in there to apprehend one man with one shotgun. Seriously?
> 
> Until I witness consistently appropriate policing in the field, I have absolutely no empathy for what police officers have to face on a day to day basis. None whatsoever.


Unfortunately, here in the States some criminals used to be better armed than the police. (I blame the gun lobby for the outrageous numbers and kinds of weapons available here). The police then felt compelled to improve their arsenals in response.

I condemn the unequal justice that I believe exists and the overzealous use of lethal force against people of color. But I don't believe all police are bloodthirsty, trigger-happy morons, eager for a chance to prove how macho they are. The mistrust I feel personally is that the good guys stand by the bad guys. And the police need to get over their growing militaristic mentality.

Accountability is what we need, just like we need it in every other aspect of our lives. Without that, there can be no trust.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> General Chit-Chat (non-knitting talk) -> Things are heating up in the world #7 (go to message) Jan 3, 15 01:01:07
> 
> tamarque wrote:
> Who taught whom--the US or Australia. The american experience of removal of children from Native families was absolutely brutal. For that matte, any removal of populations is always brutal! It really is a form of ethnic cleansing and genocide.
> ...


It may be simpler than that - one group of people are lacking a resource so must take it from somewhere - which is usually their neighbors. (We do live in a self - sustaining terrarium). Cause of all wars. So that explains the US - Australian attitude/actions toward the original groups living on land they had coveted.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> IMO, in a western democracy the answer is the common man. (Now, whether they use the ballot box, bribes or weapons, that is the question.)


I wish it were so. I see too much inertia and complacency in the common man these days, otherwise we would be seeing action for the common good and not just for one or another cause (e.g., the demonstrations and riots re police v unarmed black men).


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> It may be simpler than that - one group of people are lacking a resource so must take it from somewhere - which is usually their neighbors. (We do live in a self - sustaining terrarium). Cause of all wars. So that explains the US - Australian attitude/actions toward the original groups living on land they had coveted.


That doesn't justify the genocide committed against the indigenous in the US and Australia by the new settlers.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Unfortunately, here in the States some criminals used to be better armed than the police. (I blame the gun lobby for the outrageous numbers and kinds of weapons available here). The police then felt compelled to improve their arsenals in response.
> 
> I condemn the unequal justice that I believe exists and the overzealous use of lethal force against people of color. But I don't believe all police are bloodthirsty, trigger-happy morons, eager for a chance to prove how macho they are. The mistrust I feel personally is that the good guys stand by the bad guys. And the police need to get over their growing militaristic mentality.
> 
> Accountability is what we need, just like we need it in every other aspect of our lives. Without that, there can be no trust.


Green, I'm not sure what you mean by "The mistrust I feel personally is that the good guys stand by the bad guys."

I'm sure there are police officers who strive to diligently 'protect and serve' us mere plebs as they had vowed to do during their graduation pledge but sadly for them, the squeaky wheels among their ranks ruin it for everyone else. I have spent far too many hours in the presence of police in varied professional and a couple of personal situations to form any other view than disdain for them. That position will not change until I see evidence to the contrary.

My state's Police Commissioner, Mr. Ken Lay recently announced his retirement. In my lifetime, he has been the only police officer for whom I have respect. He is a man of integrity and genuine good will and will be sorely missed by those who benefitted from his wisdom and kindness (some deservedly, most not).

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/ken-lay-an-officer-and-a-gentleman/story-fni0fee2-1227173659928?nk=2101c64aaaf9be6453a5397c05856457


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Green, I'm not sure what you mean by "The mistrust I feel personally is that the good guys stand by the bad guys."
> 
> I'm sure there are police officers who strive to diligently 'protect and serve' us mere plebs as they had vowed to do during their graduation pledge but sadly for them, the squeaky wheels among their ranks ruin it for everyone else. I have spent far too many hours in the presence of police in varied professional and a couple of personal situations to form any other view than disdain for them. That position will not change until I see evidence to the contrary.
> 
> ...


Lovely article. You were fortunate to have such a public servant.

I have been fortunate to have few interactions with police but I have heard stories from trusted friends and I pay attention to the news. In the past I never gave the question of police brutality any thought - it was never on the radar, so to speak. In today's world, I do think about it and while I try to maintain a positive attitude and try to moderate my opinions with the belief that most police are just trying to do a good job, I'm fearful of police nowadays. Seems weird.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> That doesn't justify the genocide committed against the indigenous in the US and Australia by the new settlers.


Wasn't a justification in any way. It was possibly an explanation of why those things happen.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I've arranged for the Arizona chairman of Wolf-Pac to come from Phoenix to speak to our democratic club in a couple of weeks. You are not the only person to raise an alarm about the potential dangers of a constitutional convention and I plan to grill him - hard - on that very issue. As I mentioned, there are quite a few groups working toward overturning Citizens United and if I don't get a satisfactory answer from Wolf-Pac, I'm prepared to find another way to actively work on this critical issue. ALEC has an agenda that includes calling for a constitutional convention - another point of serious concern for all of us since they hold sway in many state legislatures and their proposed amendments (10 of them) are monstrous. We have a fight ahead of us.


I think the very fact that ALEC wants a constitutional convention speaks volumes of the danger of doing one. This country is too controlled by reactionary and fascist forces to trust this. The Koch brothers, as an example, do not believe in democracy at all. They think they should be able to do whatever they want without regulations, no taxes and absolutely no public services. But the people should keep paying taxes on their shrinking income.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> General Chit-Chat (non-knitting talk) -> Things are heating up in the world #7 (go to message) Jan 3, 15 01:01:07
> 
> tamarque wrote:
> Who taught whom--the US or Australia. The american experience of removal of children from Native families was absolutely brutal. For that matte, any removal of populations is always brutal! It really is a form of ethnic cleansing and genocide.
> ...


I think it more ethnocentrism with its attitudes of superiority. And given the need for depressed labor, these Europeans sought to enslave all they encountered. If they couldn't enslave them (which they did attempt to do), then they would take from them what they could and then remove or kill them.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> General Chit-Chat (non-knitting talk) -> Things are heating up in the world #7 (go to message) Jan 3, 15 01:01:07
> 
> tamarque wrote:
> Who taught whom--the US or Australia. The american experience of removal of children from Native families was absolutely brutal. For that matte, any removal of populations is always brutal! It really is a form of ethnic cleansing and genocide.
> ...


I think you're right about this. Fear drives people to do horrible things.

Now try to spell your name right. "womatnomore" indeed!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I've arranged for the Arizona chairman of Wolf-Pac to come from Phoenix to speak to our democratic club in a couple of weeks. You are not the only person to raise an alarm about the potential dangers of a constitutional convention and I plan to grill him - hard - on that very issue. As I mentioned, there are quite a few groups working toward overturning Citizens United and if I don't get a satisfactory answer from Wolf-Pac, I'm prepared to find another way to actively work on this critical issue. ALEC has an agenda that includes calling for a constitutional convention - another point of serious concern for all of us since they hold sway in many state legislatures and their proposed amendments (10 of them) are monstrous. We have a fight ahead of us.


I'll be very interested in hearing what he says about the potential dangers of holding a constitutional convention. Please share! There are a lot of republicans who also want a constitutional convention. I can't help but believe that one side or the other will pass something objectionable to all of us. I do not trust politicians. Particularly unelected ones.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I thought many of you would be interested in this latest piece of news.
> 
> Thank goodness this resolution did not pass in the United Nations. Why should Israel give up any land they have fought and died for. After all it is their "Promised Land," and there is no nation of Palestine, or Palestinians. They are Arabs.
> 
> ...


Please do Israel a favor and stop citing biblical prophecy as a reason for them to hold on to all the land they took in 1967. If they expect to have peace, they will have to deal with the Palestinians on terms that have nothing to do with Judaeo-Christian beliefs.

And, FYI, for several hundred years, until Israel became a state in 1948, that area was known as Palestine, and even called that by the Jews who planned to settle there.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

In April 2013, there was an incident involving the NYPD and a white middle-class couple that should make us all more watchful.

*Cops Arrest Professors Who Called 911 Over Medical Emergency*

We've seen some egregious examples of NYPD officers overstepping their duties to teach law-abiding citizens cruel lessons about carrying their ID at all times, criticizing stop-and-frisk, or daring to photograph a cop in public. The NY Times brings us the latest example of vindictiveness with a badge: officers arrested two professors who called 911 after one was suffering a routine medical emergency, despite them not doing anything wrong. "He said he needed to teach me the lesson that you are never allowed to touch a police officer," explained anthropology professor Suzanne LaFont.

LaFont and her husband Karl Anders Peltomaa, a professor of physics and math at The Art Institute of New York, were at their home on West 83rd Street last April when Peltomaa had a bad reaction to medication he was taking (he had undergone open-heart surgery a few days earlier). LaFont called 911, telling them they needed an ambulance and her husband was "freaking out," worried about his heart.

The couples' dog escaped the apartment when Officer Anthony Giambra first arrived; LaFont chased after the dog, and when she returned, she found her husband inexplicably against a wall being handcuffed. LaFont instinctively touched the officers shoulder and yelled at him to stop; she was arrested as well.
Giambra later claimed that Peltomaa was an "emotionally disturbed person" who indicated that he was willing to be placed in handcuffs for his protection. But he also said that Peltomaa fought back, kicking him in the groin and shin. He also claimed that LaFont grabbed him for a full minute. The couple denies those charges completely; Peltomaa says he didn't fight the officer, was confused why he was being handcuffed to go to the hospital, and says the officer shoved him face down on the tile floor, splitting open his chin and dislocating his thumb.
Peltomaa ended up spending two days in St. Lukes-Roosevelt Hospital Center with five stitches in his chin and electronic monitors keeping tabs on his ailing heart. LaFont was locked up for 19 hours before she was brought before a judge. The couple refused to take any plea deals, and fought up until this week to be totally exonerated.

That happened this week when Judge Steven M. Statsinger ruled that cops mishandled the call and injured an already sick man: Defendants motion describes facts so extreme and unusual that this can truly be deemed sui generis, Judge Statsinger wrote in his decision.

I dont think I can forgive what they did, Peltomaa said. I am continuously terrified I am going to meet this officer.

http://gothamist.com/2014/01/17/cops_arrest_professors_wh.php


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

So PP's post suggests that whites take crap from cops, also, but they get charges successfully pressed against the cops. I guess lose/win is better than lose/lose.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Not several hundred years, just since WWI. Do you support Israel or do you want their destruction? Palestine was founded for both Jews and Arabs. Britain gave it the name of Palestine.
> 
> _In recent history the area called Palestine includes the territories of present day Israel and Jordan (see map above. For earlier history of the term see article). From 1517 to 1917 most of this area remained under the rule of the Ottoman Empire.
> 
> ...


The first clear use of the term Palestine to refer to the entire area between Phoenicia and Egypt was in 5th century BC Ancient Greece, when Herodotus wrote of a "district of Syria, called Palaistinê" in The Histories, which included the Judean mountains and the Jordan Rift Valley.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

An acquaintance sent me this link. CNN and the BBC have been reporting on the school shooting in Pakistan. They've shown pictures and video of Pakistanis showing images of the child victims. One of the photos being shown in Pakistan is that of a Sandy Hook victim (the exact photo used in the US) Another photo is of someone linked to another Sandy Hook victim. Weird! I don't know what to think, but somebody's lying! I googled it and found two more sources, but no mainstream media.
http://memoryholeblog.com/2015/01/02/sandy-hooks-noah-pozner-dead-in-december-16-taliban-attack/#more-16047

http://www.dcclothesline.com/2015/01/03/sandy-hook-child-victim-noah-pozner-killed-twice-also-victim-pakistan-taliban-shooting/

http://www.prisonplanet.com/mystery-sandy-hook-victim-dies-again-in-pakistan.html

I've no idea what to think of this but thought I'd share anyway. ???


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

This was posted on D and P. I was checking to see if anyone was attacking the workshops or Tamarque -- they weren't but this interesting tidbit showed up. I won't say who posted it but It is rather interesting. 

quote: "I've heard it said that Obama wants to be the ruler of the UN and thereby the world". I didn't wait to see who agreed but I already know the answer end quote. 


so sad.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> This was posted on D and P. I was checking to see if anyone was attacking the workshops or Tamarque -- they weren't but this interesting tidbit showed up. I won't say who posted it but It is rather interesting.
> 
> quote: "I've heard it said that Obama wants to be the ruler of the UN and thereby the world". I didn't wait to see who agreed but I already know the answer end quote.
> 
> so sad.


Designer1234
There is never a shortage of Idiots. Let us count our blessings that we are not in that circle.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Designer1234
> There is never a shortage of Idiots. Let us count our blessings that we are not in that circle.


You can say that again, Huck!! I guess they missed the part where his approval rating is up and he was declared the most admired man in the world. 
They are just a bunch of COW's who have nothing better to do than to slam the president and blame everything that is wrong with their lives on him. It is sad.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1678/most-admired-man-woman.aspx


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Please do Israel a favor and stop citing biblical prophecy as a reason for them to hold on to all the land they took in 1967. If they expect to have peace, they will have to deal with the Palestinians on terms that have nothing to do with Judaeo-Christian beliefs.
> 
> And, FYI, for several hundred years, until Israel became a state in 1948, that area was known as Palestine, and even called that by the Jews who planned to settle there.


Poor Purl
THANK YOU. This information needs to be circulated more often. I feel strongly that if the old goats would get out of the way, the young would settle this issue amicably.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Poor Purl
> THANK YOU. This information needs to be circulated more often. I feel strongly that if the old goats would get out of the way, the young would settle this issue amicably.


LOL!! joey is the expert on Israel now? "And the hits just keep on coming!" :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> So PP's post suggests that whites take crap from cops, also, but they get charges successfully pressed against the cops. I guess lose/win is better than lose/lose.


At least in this incident, both white people lived to tell about it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> The first clear use of the term Palestine to refer to the entire area between Phoenicia and Egypt was in 5th century BC Ancient Greece, when Herodotus wrote of a "district of Syria, called Palaistinê" in The Histories, which included the Judean mountains and the Jordan Rift Valley.


Thank you. The Greeks continued to use "Palestine," as did the Turks. Besides, can there be peace for Israel if they behaved like joeysomma, covering their ears and singing "Nanana, there's no such place as Palestine, so I can't hear you"?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> This was posted on D and P. I was checking to see if anyone was attacking the workshops or Tamarque -- they weren't but this interesting tidbit showed up. I won't say who posted it but It is rather interesting.
> 
> quote: "I've heard it said that Obama wants to be the ruler of the UN and thereby the world". I didn't wait to see who agreed but I already know the answer end quote.
> 
> so sad.


If anyone spends enough time listening to Fox News, they will hear hundreds of things about President Obama that are not just untrue but absurd.

You can do it without Fox or the President. I've heard it said that the moon is made of green cream cheese. :shock:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> You can say that again, Huck!! I guess they missed the part where his approval rating is up and he was declared the most admired man in the world.
> They are just a bunch of COW's who have nothing better to do than to slam the president and blame everything that is wrong with their lives on him. It is sad.
> 
> http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll
> ...


Rasmussen tends to lean slightly to the right, so you can add a couple of points to the numbers they get.

How are you feeling, Patty?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Poor Purl
> THANK YOU. This information needs to be circulated more often. I feel strongly that if the old goats would get out of the way, the young would settle this issue amicably.


That may have been true a few years ago, but it's hard to tell how much damage those goats have done since then.

In fact, I'm not so certain that Palestinians are any different ethnically from Jordanians, but it makes no sense to insist that they don't exist.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm not upset. I just find it offensive.


I wonder why you feel how another family communicates is offensive. I think your Statement is offensive. SQM has been kidding about her family since I met her. She loves her twin and other members of her family. She visits them often and speaks of them with affection. Her name for them is something that they accept as she is being funny in their eyes and hers. Who are we to judge how a family interacts if they are all happy. You are sometimes too judgmental about things that have nothing to do with you. It is as if because I talk about my husband and tell my feelings about him that that is offensive. Everyone knows how I feel about him and how he feels about me -- is that offensive?

I just feel you are too willing sometimes to find fault with things that are none of any of our business. There are so many things that we can legitimately discuss, and other families and what they call each other in my opinion are not on the list.

Well ladies, time for me to turn in. I have spent too much time on the computer today and said too much. I will try to knit tomorrow and bypass these thread. I want to make up a workshop newsletter telling everyone that we think we have solved the problems - I just hope I am able to hang around and help tamarque but one of our other managers will help her I know, if I can't. I don't get any final results until Wednesday. Rather tired and allowed myself to speak my opinions far too much. I try not to do that, but the conversation is interesting andI find myself joining in far too much. Love to you all and thanks for all your suspport.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Lovely article. You were fortunate to have such a public servant.
> 
> I have been fortunate to have few interactions with police but I have heard stories from trusted friends and I pay attention to the news. In the past I never gave the question of police brutality any thought - it was never on the radar, so to speak. In today's world, I do think about it and while I try to maintain a positive attitude and try to moderate my opinions with the belief that most police are just trying to do a good job, I'm fearful of police nowadays. Seems weird.


I admire your moderation. My stance on this occupational group is unashamedly and unreservedly negative as I've no doubt illustrated. I too am not only intolerant of them but also fearful. Case in point: I was recently required to pull over for a breath test analysis at a designated 'station.' This was just prior to Christmas. Officers were stationed every 5 meters or so and I stopped at the end of the line. I avoided eye contact and blew into the device as instructed. Was told I was all clear and I said thank you, still avoiding eye contact. Just as I was about to drive off I hear a patronizing "and you have a good day too!" I nearly stopped to challenge the oaf but decided better of it. Eyes remaining straight ahead I drove away muttering under my breath "smart arse." Had I followed through with a challenge, it wouldn't have ended well for me.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Wasn't a justification in any way. It was possibly an explanation of why those things happen.


Are we humans really that base?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I think you're right about this. Fear drives people to do horrible things.
> 
> Now try to spell your name right. "womatnomore" indeed!


 :XD: :XD: :XD: Your eagle eye is too quick! Maybe I deliberately set a trap to test everyone's observational skills! Nah, I'm not that bright and anyway I'd be a bit of a 'woemat' to even think about doing something like that! :-(


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> I think it more ethnocentrism with its attitudes of superiority. And given the need for depressed labor, these Europeans sought to enslave all they encountered. If they couldn't enslave them (which they did attempt to do), then they would take from them what they could and then remove or kill them.


Rings too true. Whatever the motive, their cruelty and abject disregard for others stank and still stinks.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> So PP's post suggests that whites take crap from cops, also, but they get charges successfully pressed against the cops. I guess lose/win is better than lose/lose.


And I bet that is only the tip of the iceberg.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Not several hundred years, just since WWI. Do you support Israel or do you want their destruction? Palestine was founded for both Jews and Arabs. Britain gave it the name of Palestine.
> 
> _In recent history the area called Palestine includes the territories of present day Israel and Jordan (see map above. For earlier history of the term see article). From 1517 to 1917 most of this area remained under the rule of the Ottoman Empire.
> 
> ...


Why are you here? You haven't posted here for such a long time and it's been pure bliss without you. What are you trying to do? Whatever it is, it won't be good.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> An acquaintance sent me this link. CNN and the BBC have been reporting on the school shooting in Pakistan. They've shown pictures and video of Pakistanis showing images of the child victims. One of the photos being shown in Pakistan is that of a Sandy Hook victim (the exact photo used in the US) Another photo is of someone linked to another Sandy Hook victim. Weird! I don't know what to think, but somebody's lying! I googled it and found two more sources, but no mainstream media.
> http://memoryholeblog.com/2015/01/02/sandy-hooks-noah-pozner-dead-in-december-16-taliban-attack/#more-16047
> 
> http://www.dcclothesline.com/2015/01/03/sandy-hook-child-victim-noah-pozner-killed-twice-also-victim-pakistan-taliban-shooting/
> ...


Maybe it's due to lazy editing and the misguided notion that because the incident occurred in Pakistan, no one from the west will care or notice?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> If anyone spends enough time listening to Fox News, they will hear hundreds of things about President Obama that are not just untrue but absurd.
> 
> You can do it without Fox or the President. I've heard it said that the moon is made of green cream cheese. :shock:


 :XD: :XD: :XD: That was very funny. Thanks for the laugh.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> I am surprised you, of all people, do not seem to care about what happens to Israel. Almost every Arab country in the Middle East wants to wipe Israel off the map. And you don't care.
> 
> Even Harper Collins published maps for the English speaking schools in the Middle East that did not include Israel in the maps, since it would be "unacceptable."


Don't you accuse PP of not caring! You have no idea what her sentiments about Israel are and PP's sentiments for that matter are none of your bloody business. Now I know why you're back here. Getting bored over on D&P are you?


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Please do Israel a favor and stop citing biblical prophecy as a reason for them to hold on to all the land they took in 1967. If they expect to have peace, they will have to deal with the Palestinians on terms that have nothing to do with Judaeo-Christian beliefs.
> 
> And, FYI, for several hundred years, until Israel became a state in 1948, that area was known as Palestine, and even called that by the Jews who planned to settle there.


PP--please don't engage JS on this issue. This comment was sent solely to instigate a divisive argument. I read it and thought we have been having a pretty good dialogue for several days and then this person decided to instigate an argument. The fundamentalist argument about Palestine is beyond rational discussion.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> An acquaintance sent me this link. CNN and the BBC have been reporting on the school shooting in Pakistan. They've shown pictures and video of Pakistanis showing images of the child victims. One of the photos being shown in Pakistan is that of a Sandy Hook victim (the exact photo used in the US) Another photo is of someone linked to another Sandy Hook victim. Weird! I don't know what to think, but somebody's lying! I googled it and found two more sources, but no mainstream media.
> http://memoryholeblog.com/2015/01/02/sandy-hooks-noah-pozner-dead-in-december-16-taliban-attack/#more-16047
> 
> http://www.dcclothesline.com/2015/01/03/sandy-hook-child-victim-noah-pozner-killed-twice-also-victim-pakistan-taliban-shooting/
> ...


First of all you will never find this kind of information on mainstream media. Not unless there is a lot of rumbling and and major push for exposure. We have many False Flags from our govt that don't get exposed for many decades. Gulf of Tonkin comes to minds as one. The chances are very high that 911 was a False Flag operation to push the Patriot Act and the neo-con agenda. And of course this is exactly what happened.

Second, my recollection is that Sandy Hook had a lot of strange things about it that have never been answered. 911 had the same issue of people accused of being on the planes that allegedly took down the Twin Towers have turned up, living quite well, in Mid-east countries. Issues around lack of weaponry found, second person seen running from the scene, FBI vehicles on site before the shooting, etc.

Regardless of how you view Sandy Hook, it is true that we have a very nefarious government that will sacrifice human beings in a heart beat if they have an agenda to push. Just think of all the torture that is supported, not just in war but in police custody and in prisons. Think of all the human abuse as in the article that PP sent about this professional white couple.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Maybe it's due to lazy editing and the misguided notion that because the incident occurred in Pakistan, no one from the west will care or notice?


No, the right wing press often does this. I recall photos from Sarajevo, and 911, and Palestine/Israel very recently used with totally erroneous descriptions that were blatant lies. There is no ethics in mass media as they are in reality a propaganda arm of the ruling elite. It is why it is so important to try and read independent writers from many different places. And to always know something about the writer him/herself.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> This was posted on D and P. I was checking to see if anyone was attacking the workshops or Tamarque -- they weren't but this interesting tidbit showed up. I won't say who posted it but It is rather interesting.
> 
> quote: "I've heard it said that Obama wants to be the ruler of the UN and thereby the world". I didn't wait to see who agreed but I already know the answer end quote.
> 
> so sad.


Why are you trying to stir things up again? It might be a violation of TOS. Trying to get someone else to do your dirty work?

The comment, though parsed, said she heard. Does not say she agrees. You have no idea what other's think of the total comment and within it's frame of reference.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Two more posts to respond to:

First the one regarding the cops assaulting a white man with a medical emergency. About the time of Trayvon Martin there was a man with a medical monitor. He was about 58 or 68 yrs old. The monitor went off and the service for that monitor automatically called the police. The man called the service to say it was a mechanical error and he was fine. The Service called the police to stop their coming to the home of the man. However, the cops refused to listen to this, came to the house and began to bang on the door fightening the man who told them to leave as he was fine. The copts, in full assault gear and with assault rifles raised broke down the door and shot the man to death! But this man wasn't handcuffed--they shot him to death!!

The man was Black, a retired military man. He was on the phone with a neighbor telling him he was frightened for his life. I believe there was a call to or from his son, too during this incident. I can't begin to describe what it did to me reading about this when it happened. And even now it tears me up with horror, rage, grief for the family and all of us.

The second post I want to respond to is Shirley's about Canada. I agree with pretty much everything Shirley says however, I still maintain my perspective. Canada is not a major military country and doesn't have hegemonic goals for itself. So it is a 'softer' nation in that respect. However, it sits within the hegemonic sphere of the US and fully and willingly participates. To begin with it is a willing signer of the North American Treaty engineered by Bush and without any public knowledge. This treaty is designed to do away with borders as regard trade but closes them off for easy human movement. We never needed passports to go to Canada or Mexico but not do, for example.

Part of this treaty is that idea of dividing the US into mega north/south highways--10 lanes I believe. That is a lot of land scheduled to be taken by right of eminent domaine. Thus the reason for enacting legislation that private corporations had the right to do this. There have been significant fights over this in Texas and Oklahoma I think. Wealthy ranchers and land holders are able to pay to push the roadway our of their way, but not most of the people who will be affected. Plus the fact that it will literally divide the country geographically. The other roadway that saw mapped out was on the west coast. Think about the disaster to land and communities, water ways, environment, Native American land, etc.

Then there are things like the Keystone KL pipeline which is a joint effort beta the countries. Most Americans are not aware of the intense protest against this. It is spear headed by Native American groups that will be heavily affected by this pipeline. What else is new!

GMO's--Canada has bought in, hook, line and sinker, into promoting GMOs.
A major Canola grower, most of it is now GMO. GMO apples are being promoted in Canada and there are some fights over that ongoing.

Holistic health. Canada had freedom of access to holistic health but under Codex Alimentarius, an international agreement akin to the WTO for big ag, big chem and big medicine, Canada is making access to homeopathy, herbs and supplements increasingly illegal or harder to get.

Canada's single payer health care system is under attack along with all social programs. The New World Order, a neo-con dream is pushing for cut backs and destruction of those systems. Being done slowly is designed to keep the public numb to the creeping accumulation of cut backs and restrictions.

There Native Americans are treated with great racism. The Quebecois Movement for independence spoke to the rage of people for being teated like second class citizens.

So Shirley's comments are correct, but there is a much bigger picture that is controlling the direction of Canada. And that is where I come from on this. and I have been in touch with numbers of Canadians over the years who share my perceptions and understanding.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Why are you trying to stir things up again? It might be a violation of TOS. Trying to get someone else to do your dirty work?
> 
> The comment, though parsed, said she heard. Does not say she agrees. You have no idea what other's think of the total comment and within it's frame of reference.


Given the focus of that discussion, it is not unreasonable to think that the quoted statement was intended to be a bashing of Obama, Democrats, etc. Of course you are free to go into D & P and see for yourself how that discussion went.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> This was posted on D and P. I was checking to see if anyone was attacking the workshops or Tamarque -- they weren't but this interesting tidbit showed up. I won't say who posted it but It is rather interesting.
> 
> quote: "I've heard it said that Obama wants to be the ruler of the UN and thereby the world". I didn't wait to see who agreed but I already know the answer end quote.
> 
> so sad.


Yes, it is sad. But the haters can make up anything they want.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Maybe it's due to lazy editing and the misguided notion that because the incident occurred in Pakistan, no one from the west will care or notice?


The people in Pakistan are holding up his picture. It has nothing to do with editing.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> First of all you will never find this kind of information on mainstream media. Not unless there is a lot of rumbling and and major push for exposure. We have many False Flags from our govt that don't get exposed for many decades. Gulf of Tonkin comes to minds as one. The chances are very high that 911 was a False Flag operation to push the Patriot Act and the neo-con agenda. And of course this is exactly what happened.
> 
> Second, my recollection is that Sandy Hook had a lot of strange things about it that have never been answered. 911 had the same issue of people accused of being on the planes that allegedly took down the Twin Towers have turned up, living quite well, in Mid-east countries. Issues around lack of weaponry found, second person seen running from the scene, FBI vehicles on site before the shooting, etc.
> 
> Regardless of how you view Sandy Hook, it is true that we have a very nefarious government that will sacrifice human beings in a heart beat if they have an agenda to push. Just think of all the torture that is supported, not just in war but in police custody and in prisons. Think of all the human abuse as in the article that PP sent about this professional white couple.


Agree!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> P:S I thought you missed me. You have been talking about me for the last two weeks.


But not in a good way.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Are we humans really that base?


Think of our EXs.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

tamarque said:


> First of all you will never find this kind of information on mainstream media. Not unless there is a lot of rumbling and and major push for exposure. We have many False Flags from our govt that don't get exposed for many decades. Gulf of Tonkin comes to minds as one. The chances are very high that 911 was a False Flag operation to push the Patriot Act and the neo-con agenda. And of course this is exactly what happened.
> 
> Second, my recollection is that Sandy Hook had a lot of strange things about it that have never been answered. 911 had the same issue of people accused of being on the planes that allegedly took down the Twin Towers have turned up, living quite well, in Mid-east countries. Issues around lack of weaponry found, second person seen running from the scene, FBI vehicles on site before the shooting, etc.
> 
> Regardless of how you view Sandy Hook, it is true that we have a very nefarious government that will sacrifice human beings in a heart beat if they have an agenda to push. Just think of all the torture that is supported, not just in war but in police custody and in prisons. Think of all the human abuse as in the article that PP sent about this professional white couple.


I've recognized your tendency to be a conspiracy theorist for a long time, but because I like you I have refrained from addressing your hints about that kind of thinking.

This post has pushed me past my desire to live and let live and to ignore those hints. GMOs, alternative medicine, control of the masses...any number of things. These references to 9-11 and Sandy Hook have pissed me right off.

No matter what you think the reasons, historical or psychological, of our problems as a country may be, to flatly state that our government is nefarious and capable of mass murder is offensive on such a deep level that I am struggling to find words to address it. That you can seriously believe 9-11 and Sandy Hook (and who knows what else) were planned and executed or staged by our government, is outrageous. I suspect you also believe, based on former comments, that we Americans are nothing more than pawns of the New World Order, destined for mass de-population, mind control and eventual control by some single, evil, secret entity.

You probably think I'm stupid, blind, and naïve NOT to see what you so clearly THINK you see. I have no illusions that anything I say will dissuade you; it would be like trying to turn joeysomma into an atheist. Hopeless. At the same time, I will not be silent and I cannot resist calling everything you say in your post what it is - BULLSHIT.

How dare you deny the reality of 9-11? Alleged? How dare you discount and deny the suffering of those who died and their grieving families? Even worse, the slaughter of babies and their grieving parents? And "false flags" hints those are not the only incidents you would twist into some sort of plot. Isn't it enough that we experience tragedies without turning them into tools to promote a sick and twisted way of seeing the world?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I am surprised you, of all people, do not seem to care about what happens to Israel. Almost every Arab country in the Middle East wants to wipe Israel off the map. And you don't care.
> 
> Even Harper Collins published maps for the English speaking schools in the Middle East that did not include Israel in the maps, since it would be "unacceptable."


Are you serious? It's because I care a lot that I say what I've said. Israel has already lost the support of many nations, who feel sorry for the Palestinians. Will they like it better if Israel simply claims the Palestinians don't exist? And how do you think quoting biblical prophecy will go over with all the Muslim, Buddhist, Shinto, Hindu, etc. nations, not to mention those countries with no established religion?

And as for God promising to give that land to Israel, He hasn't fulfilled that promise yet - we may all be dead if and when He keeps His word. In the meantime, Israel has to do the best it can to keep some kind of peace, because if it ever loses a war, that's the end.

But you keep quoting scripture instead of being real. Think, for once.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: Your eagle eye is too quick! Maybe I deliberately set a trap to test everyone's observational skills! Nah, I'm not that bright and anyway I'd be a bit of a 'woemat' to even think about doing something like that! :-(


Sorry. I can't tamp down my need to proofread and correct. I was born with it; I used to earn money at it; and if I lose friends over it, well, I just can't help it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: Your eagle eye is too quick! Maybe I deliberately set a trap to test everyone's observational skills! Nah, I'm not that bright and anyway I'd be a bit of a 'woemat' to even think about doing something like that! :-(


Sorry. I can't tamp down my need to proofread and correct. I was born with it; I used to earn money at it; and if I lose friends over it, well, I just can't help it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Why are you here? You haven't posted here for such a long time and it's been pure bliss without you. What are you trying to do? Whatever it is, it won't be good.


Even more important, why did she go back to that horribly abused cat avatar?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Two more posts to respond to:
> 
> First the one regarding the cops assaulting a white man with a medical emergency. About the time of Trayvon Martin there was a man with a medical monitor. He was about 58 or 68 yrs old. The monitor went off and the service for that monitor automatically called the police. The man called the service to say it was a mechanical error and he was fine. The Service called the police to stop their coming to the home of the man. However, the cops refused to listen to this, came to the house and began to bang on the door fightening the man who told them to leave as he was fine. The copts, in full assault gear and with assault rifles raised broke down the door and shot the man to death! But this man wasn't handcuffed--they shot him to death!!
> 
> ...


I see where you are coming from but I don't agree in many ways with your ideas and strong feelings about many things.

I am not always looking for bad things. The things are mentioned in answer to your post about Canada. I also take issue that we follow like sheep. We refused to enter the Korean or Viet Nam wars, We didn't send troops to Iraq but did send them to Afghanistan. Our country is one of the longest serving Peace Keeping forces in the world. I am proud of that.  We have oil and gas-- and many people want it. I won't get into the pipeline except to say I understand and agree with those who are working against it.

I think our basic beliefs about many things are very different.

You say our health care system is under attack -- by Who?
We are in a recession as are you and there have been some cut backs. I just don't think that any American really dislikes our healthcare system. I have had many many people from the states write and ask me about it. You make it sound as if we are in dire straits. Yes there is racism here, but many efforts have been made to change what has happened. There is just as much racism in the uS against your First Nations people. We have and are making efforts to help the first nations people find a way to become productive and still keep their Basic differences, which by the way are many.

As far as Quebec is concerned. Quebec refused to join in the 
2nd World War when English Canada was l00% involved. Quebec is one of l0 Provinces and has more power than all but Ontario. It is our second language which is fine with Canadians, but you can't be a Government employee unless uyou speak fluent french. All Government agencies answer the phone with french first and the English.

The Province tried to remove all 
English speaking signs and insisted that English speech was not allowed. This didn't work well. We have had French Canadian Liberal leaders (Prime MInisters) over the past 50 years and many thing were put through without an input from the whole country. I have absolutely no problem with Quebec but I and many other Canadians don't feel that it is an even playing ground in Ottawa.

There are l0 Provinces and one should not be given special treatment which they demand. should not be treated differently than the other Provinces. I disagree in many ways with what you are saying, but I also disagree with many of your ideas which all seem negative and I just don't think you know as much about my country as you think you do.

We are not being taken over by the New World order, whatever that is. I just don't buy a lot of your ideas. You have every right to have your opinions and I know you are extremely well read but I, like Greene don't agree with much of what you believe.

One More Thing the Parti Quebecois tried very hard to convince Quebec to separate. They expounded on how badly Quebec is treated which is in my opinion a croc. The want to be a country in Canada with all the positives of a Province but be allowed to make all their own choices about everything. They can't have it both ways. I might not be as well educated as you and others on this thread, but I have lived in this country for over 80 years and have been very interested in the Quebec situation.

It is a beautiful Province and very nice people. I have no interest in them pulling out of the Country but I also have no interest in them getting special and lots better treatment that the English speaking provinces.

I am sure that there are others who agree with you -and they would be the ones you would likely talk to up here. There are many many Canadians who don't agree with you. This is not at all personal as you are my friend. However I don't agree with 90% of what you have said.I haven't spent years like you have studying all these different writings etc. But I have lived here. Our health care system saved my Husbands life. It is costly and we are willing to pay the taxes that support it. The cost of living has risen here as in the States.We have been and in some ways still are in a recession as is most of the world. I don't see a World Order undermining my country. I do see that our spending has to be cut down and that we are still in a recession as are most countries in different levels. We are much in the same boat as Australia - we have our problems but I just don't agree with your negative thinking about world orders etc.

I have not heard much against the fact of having to use Passports since 9/11 -- I think most of us here understand that that changed the US and they have to be much more aware - We never have had to have passports and we miss it but in my understanding most Canadians understand that the reasons are quite in keeping with what happened. It is a different North America since then and certainly a different United states.

Oh and by the way another place we did not follow was the cuban situation. We have good relations with cuba and have never had a problem with Cuba. We visit there and trade there. That is another place we didn't follow like sheep.

Anyway it has been an interesting conversation.

By the way everyone. Admin has just appointed Tamarque as one of the Managers of the Workshop section. Congratulations.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> PP--please don't engage JS on this issue. This comment was sent solely to instigate a divisive argument. I read it and thought we have been having a pretty good dialogue for several days and then this person decided to instigate an argument. The fundamentalist argument about Palestine is beyond rational discussion.


I don't know about engaging her - I'd like to smack her around a little. :twisted:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> First of all you will never find this kind of information on mainstream media. Not unless there is a lot of rumbling and and major push for exposure. We have many False Flags from our govt that don't get exposed for many decades. Gulf of Tonkin comes to minds as one. The chances are very high that 911 was a False Flag operation to push the Patriot Act and the neo-con agenda. And of course this is exactly what happened.
> 
> Second, my recollection is that Sandy Hook had a lot of strange things about it that have never been answered. 911 had the same issue of people accused of being on the planes that allegedly took down the Twin Towers have turned up, living quite well, in Mid-east countries. Issues around lack of weaponry found, second person seen running from the scene, FBI vehicles on site before the shooting, etc.
> 
> Regardless of how you view Sandy Hook, it is true that we have a very nefarious government that will sacrifice human beings in a heart beat if they have an agenda to push. Just think of all the torture that is supported, not just in war but in police custody and in prisons. Think of all the human abuse as in the article that PP sent about this professional white couple.


Oh, come on. Not everything bad that happens was designed by the government, and it trivializes the deaths murdered children and those who died in the buildings' collapse.

In fact I'd find it easier to believe that the government couldn't fight its way out of a paper bag than that those incidents, and others like them, were planned by our own government.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Why are you trying to stir things up again? It might be a violation of TOS. Trying to get someone else to do your dirty work?
> 
> The comment, though parsed, said she heard. Does not say she agrees. You have no idea what other's think of the total comment and within it's frame of reference.


Why are you even writing to Designer if you're not prepared to admit you lied about her being a part of the wallpapering of D&P?

(And you use apostrophes where they don't belong. Learn how to use punctuation.)


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Two more posts to respond to:
> 
> First the one regarding the cops assaulting a white man with a medical emergency. About the time of Trayvon Martin there was a man with a medical monitor. He was about 58 or 68 yrs old. The monitor went off and the service for that monitor automatically called the police. The man called the service to say it was a mechanical error and he was fine. The Service called the police to stop their coming to the home of the man. However, the cops refused to listen to this, came to the house and began to bang on the door fightening the man who told them to leave as he was fine. The copts, in full assault gear and with assault rifles raised broke down the door and shot the man to death! But this man wasn't handcuffed--they shot him to death!!
> 
> ...


I remember the incident involving the man who was shot in his own home for no reason, and it makes me sad as well.

But you undermine your own thoughtfulness when you bring in things like that north-south highway, which people have been talking about for years and is still not around, as well as some other evil plans our government has in store for us.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I've recognized your tendency to be a conspiracy theorist for a long time, but because I like you I have refrained from addressing your hints about that kind of thinking.
> 
> This post has pushed me past my desire to live and let live and to ignore those hints. GMOs, alternative medicine, control of the masses...any number of things. These references to 9-11 and Sandy Hook have pissed me right off.
> 
> ...


whoa there nelly! you are really overstepping bounds here. First of all get over this conspiracy theory crap. You obviously are blind to how repressive propaganda works. That is a phrase devised by the right to attack people with progressive perspectives. There is nothing theoretical about the false flags i listed.

Second, do you know what a False Flag is? You don't sound like you do. Let me try to politely educate you here. A False Flag was devised by pirates/sailors who would fly the flag of another country or ship in order to hide what they were really doing, or trying to slander another group or country. So where do hear me denying that 911 happened? You don't! So say you are sorry for not understanding.

Now let me state clearly that conspiracies do exist. Govt's are conspiratorial all the time. They work behind closed doors figuring out how to maneuver the public to buy into crap that is not to our best interest. That is conspiratorial. It was conspiratorial that Obama met with Drug corporations behind closed doors on the ACA and we have never gotten those reports. But we found out, at least generally, what happened by watching was came to pass. Drug prices were not going to be negotiable. Nor were they going to be investigated for health and safety any more than existing which is to say more of the same toxic crap foisted on people that does not work. Gulf of Tonkin was a False Flag. And there is tons of information that suggest 911 was an inside job, a conspiracy to foist the neo-con agenda on the public. The list is long of such conspiracies in govt. Industry does this, too, when they conspire on how to foist toxic food on the public or when they plan on how to manipulate oil prices, or any of the many ways that decisions are made about our lives without our knowledge or consent.

Now you seem like a decent, well intentioned person who is doing some political work which is good. But your rant on me tells me that you are pretty naive and politically timid.

I am sorry that information discussed here is blowing your bubble but you might just try to learn from those of us who have more experience than you do. It might do you some good to try and learn from us, maybe make you a better political organizer.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Yes, it is sad. But the haters can make up anything they want.


And they do, often without any logic, let alone truth.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> But not in a good way.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I've recognized your tendency to be a conspiracy theorist for a long time, but because I like you I have refrained from addressing your hints about that kind of thinking.
> 
> This post has pushed me past my desire to live and let live and to ignore those hints. GMOs, alternative medicine, control of the masses...any number of things. These references to 9-11 and Sandy Hook have pissed me right off.
> 
> ...


You speak for many of us, D. Thank you for expressing it so clearly.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

tamarque said:


> whoa there nelly! you are really overstepping bounds here. First of all get over this conspiracy theory crap. You obviously are blind to how repressive propaganda works. That is a phrase devised by the right to attack people with progressive perspectives. There is nothing theoretical about the false flags i listed.
> 
> Second, do you know what a False Flag is? You don't sound like you do. Let me try to politely educate you here. A False Flag was devised by pirates/sailors who would fly the flag of another country or ship in order to hide what they were really doing, or trying to slander another group or country. So where do here me denying that 911 happened? You don't! So say you are sorry for not understanding.
> 
> ...


My statements stand.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You speak for many of us, D. Thank you for expressing it so clearly.


Thank you, Purl.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Why are you trying to stir things up again? It might be a violation of TOS. Trying to get someone else to do your dirty work?
> 
> The comment, though parsed, said she heard. Does not say she agrees. You have no idea what other's think of the total comment and within it's frame of reference.


Thanks, LTL - exactly right! Designer and PP can barely write a post without referring to someone from the Denim thread and insulting them without cause. Their hatred runs deep and now they must do their own dirty work as their mentor, Vocal Lisa, can no longer do it for them. They cannot even shadow quote her any more as Admin is quick to delete her posts.

P.S. I haven't read this thread for awhile and learned today, it is the same crap and insults of those who aren't even posting here. It all about who they can run down. Disgusting. Designer lied and put words in my mouth by saying "end quote" = nothing new. She cannot exist without reading and commenting on threads other than Denim about what is said on Denim and is always looking for a fight where none exists. Let them run themselves into the ground LTL. They cannot ignore us, they are obsessed with us and the friendships we've made, but we can certainly ignore them!


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

tamarque said:


> No, the right wing press often does this. I recall photos from Sarajevo, and 911, and Palestine/Israel very recently used with totally erroneous descriptions that were blatant lies. There is no ethics in mass media as they are in reality a propaganda arm of the ruling elite. It is why it is so important to try and read independent writers from many different places. And to always know something about the writer him/herself.


Television is the opiate of the people.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Thanks, LTL - exactly right! Designer and PP can barely write a post without referring to someone from the Denim thread and insulting them without cause. Their hatred runs deep and now they must do their own dirty work as their mentor, Vocal Lisa, can no longer do it for them. They cannot even shadow quote her any more as Admin is quick to delete her posts.
> 
> P.S. I haven't read this thread for awhile and learned today, it is the same crap and insults of those who aren't even posting here. It all about who they can run down. Disgusting. Designer lied and put words in my mouth by saying "end quote" = nothing new. She cannot exist without reading and commenting on threads other than Denim about what is said on Denim and is always looking for a fight where none exists. Let them run themselves into the ground LTL. They cannot ignore us, they are obsessed with us and the friendships we've made but we can certainly ignore them!


Then please do so. We've been discussing world events, so there can't be anything here to interest you.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

DGreen said:


> I've recognized your tendency to be a conspiracy theorist for a long time, but because I like you I have refrained from addressing your hints about that kind of thinking.
> 
> This post has pushed me past my desire to live and let live and to ignore those hints. GMOs, alternative medicine, control of the masses...any number of things. These references to 9-11 and Sandy Hook have pissed me right off.
> 
> ...


I agree. Tamarque, at heart we/re talking about individual opinions and experiences. For example, I still believe the police are my friends because I grew up in Berkeley, CA where police officers had to have a BA to have their applications to the BPD considered at all, and were better trained than other police. Also, I've never been on the wrong side of the law. Generally, when I'm polite to a police officer, the police officer responds in the same and I've lived in several large cities.

The BPD managed to thread its way through the 60s pretty well, but there were always some people who had the knee jerk reaction that they were as bad as the Oakland PD and the Alameda County Sherriffs' Department, both policing organizations that are still as awful today as they were 50 years ago.

Tamarque, it seems like you're as attached to and swallow what your sources of information say just as any of the folks over at D&P.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

I am way behind reading the posts and therefore cannot respond individually with at least some intelligence. I must however state that either some folks are going bunkers simply due to age or are ingesting stuff that creates theories as LSD once brought forth. Mystery Writers should be looking in to extract some really "funny" stuff. My goodness the fantasy some people have. Are we having a greater number of psychotics here than are in the general population? It sure seems like it. Huck


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Why are you even writing to Designer if you're not prepared to admit you lied about her being a part of the wallpapering of D&P?
> 
> (And you use apostrophes where they don't belong. Learn how to use punctuation.)


Well snap, you appear to be a very angry person. I will not admit to a lie that I did not do. But your constant badgering for an apology that I do not have to make proves the definition of insanity...........doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. And getting your undies in a twist over a misplaced " ' " is hilarious.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Well snap, you appear to be a very angry person. I will not admit to a lie that I did not do. But your constant badgering for an apology that I do not have to make proves the definition of insanity...........doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. And getting your undies in a twist over a misplaced " ' " is hilarious.


Please, the mention of the apostrophes was just my way of saying "You're illiterate." I may not even have been wearing undies when I typed it.

But the only way to get a point across when dealing with a chronic liar or someone with dementia is to keep repeating it.

I don't expect an apology (though she deserves one), just an admission that you accused Designer of encouraging the wallpapering of your thread. You claimed you didn't, but here, for the second time, is the proof. If you can't retain it this time, then everyone will know about your dementia, brain damage, or inability to tell the truth even when it's staring you in the face.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Thanks, LTL - exactly right! Designer and PP can barely write a post without referring to someone from the Denim thread and insulting them without cause. Their hatred runs deep and now they must do their own dirty work as their mentor, Vocal Lisa, can no longer do it for them. They cannot even shadow quote her any more as Admin is quick to delete her posts.
> 
> P.S. I haven't read this thread for awhile and learned today, it is the same crap and insults of those who aren't even posting here. It all about who they can run down. Disgusting. Designer lied and put words in my mouth by saying "end quote" = nothing new. She cannot exist without reading and commenting on threads other than Denim about what is said on Denim and is always looking for a fight where none exists. Let them run themselves into the ground LTL. They cannot ignore us, they are obsessed with us and the friendships we've made, but we can certainly ignore them!


knitpresentgifts
quit throwing rocks, when others are only pitching pebbles.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

So tell me PP--you think this government doesn't support wholesale slaughter of people? You think that it is a theory that is too way out to accept?

Let me ask you something. Why does the idea of a runaway, nefarious government disturb you? You seem to understand the control of the government by the corporations. You seem to understand the media is not the friend of the people. You seem to recognize that the police are not friends of the people, particularly people of color. But are you then rejecting the entire picture of what all this behavior creates? Is it that scary to you to think that a government that supports the mass murder of 1.5 million Iraqis wouldn't support the killing of 3000 people in the US? 

These thoughts may be unsettling, but how is change to occur if people refuse to look at reality?


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I agree. Tamarque, at heart we/re talking about individual opinions and experiences. For example, I still believe the police are my friends because I grew up in Berkeley, CA where police officers had to have a BA to have their applications to the BPD considered at all, and were better trained than other police. Also, I've never been on the wrong side of the law. Generally, when I'm polite to a police officer, the police officer responds in the same and I've lived in several large cities.
> 
> The BPD managed to thread its way through the 60s pretty well, but there were always some people who had the knee jerk reaction that they were as bad as the Oakland PD and the Alameda County Sherriffs' Department, both policing organizations that are still as awful today as they were 50 years ago.
> 
> Tamarque, it seems like you're as attached to and swallow what your sources of information say just as any of the folks over at D&P.


I think you miss a big point here. D&P and now some people here are running opinions, often based on biases and their comfort zone. I don't give opinions. I have sent information. My understanding is based on documented facts and the reality shared by millions of people who are daily assaulted by a system that is set up to prevent their success.

Many here are obviously privileged and expect to continue to carry those privileges, even in the face of systemic failures that affect them personally. Such entitlement also carries with it the expectation that they will survive and survive in a safe and decent manner. I must say that I have yet to see much consciousness around white skin privilege. Yes, one article on a police invasion but the people arrested in their own home had charges dropped easily and it all became an annoying experience, a little aberration of the system. For many people this kind of experience results in high fines, beatings, imprisonment, and even death. This is a typical daily experience and expectation. Even NYC mayor, with his dark skin son, has commented on how he has to teach his son to avoid police assaults. The police went ballistics over this. Why? People of color know why. Do white folks?

So know MIB, it is not about difference of opinions based on what feels good. it is about real facts and experiences that draw the conclusions that I hold. If different facts are presented I will listen, but that is not what is done. So please note the difference.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I admire your moderation. My stance on this occupational group is unashamedly and unreservedly negative as I've no doubt illustrated. I too am not only intolerant of them but also fearful. Case in point: I was recently required to pull over for a breath test analysis at a designated 'station.' This was just prior to Christmas. Officers were stationed every 5 meters or so and I stopped at the end of the line. I avoided eye contact and blew into the device as instructed. Was told I was all clear and I said thank you, still avoiding eye contact. Just as I was about to drive off I hear a patronizing "and you have a good day too!" I nearly stopped to challenge the oaf but decided better of it. Eyes remaining straight ahead I drove away muttering under my breath "smart arse." Had I followed through with a challenge, it wouldn't have ended well for me.


You held your tongue, good for you. As many don't hold their tongues, this could be why the police are always on edge. Even something so innocent as trying to keep drunks off the roads can result in an unwarranted confrontation. Job well done, you didn't follow through. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> An acquaintance sent me this link. CNN and the BBC have been reporting on the school shooting in Pakistan. They've shown pictures and video of Pakistanis showing images of the child victims. One of the photos being shown in Pakistan is that of a Sandy Hook victim (the exact photo used in the US) Another photo is of someone linked to another Sandy Hook victim. Weird! I don't know what to think, but somebody's lying! I googled it and found two more sources, but no mainstream media.
> http://memoryholeblog.com/2015/01/02/sandy-hooks-noah-pozner-dead-in-december-16-taliban-attack/#more-16047
> 
> http://www.dcclothesline.com/2015/01/03/sandy-hook-child-victim-noah-pozner-killed-twice-also-victim-pakistan-taliban-shooting/
> ...


I posted this last night and Tamarque is is only one to comment on it. Does no one think that it's strange that Pakistanis have put a photo of a Sandy Hook victim on their memorial wall and on their speaker's lectern? Its not a photo of a child that "looks like" Noah Pozner, its the exact photo that his parents made public. It was displayed on a big billboard, showing pictures of the victims of the Pakistani school shooting. Doesn't anybody think its strange?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Thanks, LTL - exactly right! Designer and PP can barely write a post without referring to someone from the Denim thread and insulting them without cause. Their hatred runs deep and now they must do their own dirty work as their mentor, Vocal Lisa, can no longer do it for them. They cannot even shadow quote her any more as Admin is quick to delete her posts.
> 
> P.S. I haven't read this thread for awhile and learned today, it is the same crap and insults of those who aren't even posting here. It all about who they can run down. Disgusting. Designer lied and put words in my mouth by saying "end quote" = nothing new. She cannot exist without reading and commenting on threads other than Denim about what is said on Denim and is always looking for a fight where none exists. Let them run themselves into the ground LTL. They cannot ignore us, they are obsessed with us and the friendships we've made, [but we can certainly ignore them!]


---------------------------------
Then why don't you ignore us and put your money where your mouth is -- and go away? I did not mention your name - you are the one that has said it was you. We have been called every filthy name you have in your very wide vocabulary.

I did not say that *you made the remark * you said it was about something you read. read my post again. I copied the words exactly that were posted. If you want to take credit for telling them What you read then go ahead)

I never said they were the poster's words and you know it. I quoted the sentence as posted which clearly stated that it was something that person read. I never mentioned you nor did I lie. I never said what was discussed afterwords I left after being there less than five minutes and didn't wait around to see any of the conversation. I found it interesting that now he is thought to be trying to rule the world. I deliberately didn't use your name and used the end quote to show that the sentence was finished. You are really something.

I personally don't give a fig for your accusations which are not true, your calling me a liar when I speak the truth, your lack of Christmas spirit couldn't care less what you think but when you call me a liar I will fight back. When you say I accused you of something when I didn't I will fight back. If you don't want me to answer, then don't attack. it is that easy. And just go away as you have said over and over and over that you are going to do. And you have said you are going to ignore us over and over and over. We are not interested in one thing you say, as it is always nasty. Never a discussion, just scolding and calling us liars and evil, and twisted. Drop it.That is the last time I will speak on the subject.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> ---------------------------------
> 
> And just go away as you have said over and over and over that you are going to do. And you have said you are going to ignore us over and over and over. We are not interested in one thing you say, as it is always nasty. Never a discussion, just scolding and calling us liars and evil, and twisted. Drop it.That is the last time I will speak on the subject.


"We are not interested in one thing you say" - then please explain why you were lurking and reading D&P for nasty comments about your workshops and Tamarque? This alone proves that you ARE indeed INTERESTED in what is said on D&P. The fact that you copied this post and others from D&P to this thread also indicates that you are interested in what is said on D&P. Your words say one thing and your actions say another. This is one reason that LIAR is an appropriate description.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Well snap, you appear to be a very angry person. I will not admit to a lie that I did not do. But your constant badgering for an apology that I do not have to make proves the definition of insanity...........doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. And getting your undies in a twist over a misplaced " ' " is hilarious.


I notice mistakes in her words and punctuation often - frankly who cares? It is hilarious that it bothers her to the point of mentioning it but cannot see it in her own writing. Also, the way she brings up some false argument again and again and again. It does make her appear to be insane.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> This thread is "Things are heating up in this world." Since there was this proposal brought up in the UN as a step in removing Israel from the "face of the earth," that many of the people on this thread might want to know about it. What could be "hotter" than another attack on our only ally in the Middle East. This should be a warning sign for the US. Islam will not stop until every Jew and Christian is dead. (It is in the Koran). But then here we are all "snug as a bug in a rug" here in the US and it won't happen here. Except for the increasing number of Muslims in our Federal Government and our Muslim leaning President.
> 
> What is a rational discussion about the Middle East? That the US should side with the Muslims against Israel? In actuality, the Arabs that are peacefully working with the Jews in Israel have the same standard of living. Much better than the rest of the Muslim world.


"Our Muslim leaning President?" Does he tilt towards Mecca? What's a Muslim leaning person?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I've recognized your tendency to be a conspiracy theorist for a long time, but because I like you I have refrained from addressing your hints about that kind of thinking.
> 
> This post has pushed me past my desire to live and let live and to ignore those hints. GMOs, alternative medicine, control of the masses...any number of things. These references to 9-11 and Sandy Hook have pissed me right off.
> 
> ...


You go, DGreen! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I notice mistakes in her words and punctuation often - frankly who cares? It is hilarious that it bothers her to the point of mentioning it but cannot see it in her own writing. Also, the way she brings up some false argument again and again and again. It does make her appear to be insane.


Make us JOYFUL and leave.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> ---------------------------------
> Then why don't you ignore us and put your money where your mouth is -- and go away? I did not mention your name - you are the one that has said it was you. We have been called every filthy name you have in your very wide vocabulary.
> 
> I did not say that *you made the remark * you said it was about something you read. read my post again. I copied the words exactly that were posted. If you want to take credit for telling them What you read then go ahead)
> ...


Designer, why don't you shut your big mouth. You *repeatedly* say you don't read the Denim thread, do probably daily, and lie, lie and lie. You insult others* nearly every darn post you write.* I KNOW what I said and now you claimed you quoted me. You didn't have to tell me it was my words, you fool. Then, you added your opinion and said 'end quote.' You are incapable of understanding what you read and being a honest and nice person. * I DID NOT say I 'read it.' I said "heard."* To quote you, "Read my post again."

Words have meaning, learn the definitions and difference! You are so full of hatred you cannot leave ANYONE on that thread alone. Is it any wonder no one there likes you. You don't get it!!!! You cause your own problems and destroy any chance of a friendship with you by your nasty antics.

Then you keep making a mountain of a mole hill and regularly insult me and those you don't like when *I nor most from the Denim thread even read your posts or post to you. * We avoid and ignore you and you cannot stand that fact, so go on the war path. You say your don't give a fig about me and yet post to me or about me endlessly. Grow up and act like an adult.

Those on Denim cannot stand the way you berate, insult and attacks others, falsely accuse us and continually go looking for someone to attack or *make up something* so you think you have justification to attack us. You just *admitted* you went and read Denim to see if anyone there was attacking Tarmaque or the workshops. You learned NO ONE did, so you made crap UP so you can report back to your Liberal friends and start an argument about NOTHING on a completely different thread.

Either you stop or will be stopped. I'm not putting up with your libel and defamation of me anymore. READ THIS: I will start reading your posts and collecting all those in which you falsely insult, accuse or attack me. I will turn in each post to Admin so he is aware of your antics.

YOU DID NOT simply QUOTE ME.

I DID NOT ATTACK YOU and I do NOT want you to answer or fight back. I mentioned something I HEARD about Obama. You continue to lie and say you don't read that thread, yet you keep referring to it and make up BS. YOU BROUGHT MY WORDS FROM ONE THREAD TO ANOTHER SIMPLY TO INSULT ME AGAIN and it had *nothing* to do with you *or any other KPer.*

ENOUGH! Oh, and I have more Christmas spirit in a single hair on my head than you could even fathom.

BTW: your consistent LIE repeated again,


Designer1234 said:


> That is the last time I will speak on the subject.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I


knitpresentgifts said:


> Designer, why don't you shut your big mouth. You *repeatedly* say you don't read the Denim thread, do probably daily, and lie, lie and lie. You insult other s*nearly every darn post you write.*I KNOW what I said and you claim you quoted me. You didn't have to tell me it was my words, fool. Then, you added your opinion and said 'end quote.' You are incapable of understanding what you read and being a honest and nice person. * I DID NOT say I 'read it.' I said "heard".* You are so full of hatred you cannot leave ANYONE on that thread alone.
> 
> Then you make a mountain of a mole hill and regular insult me and those you don't like when I've not even been reading on posting to you.
> 
> ...


After that angry mouthful, take a trip to the prayer list.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Boy they Surely know how to blow their top over Shirley.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> Boy they Surely know how to blow their top over Shirley.


Keep it up SQM. It is Shirley who blows.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Keep it up SQM. It is Shirley who blows.


OOOOOO. You sound like a mean mommy. Keep it up SQM. You should have said that to my EX.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

+


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I don't know about engaging her - I'd like to smack her around a little. :twisted:


Perhaps you need to do that 1:1 privately as every public response just keeps the game going. Ignoring her got her to leave before. Personally I find it counterproductive to engage her on any level. I am not upset by differences beta us but I am not into supporting the inciteful bad behavior.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I've recognized your tendency to be a conspiracy theorist for a long time, but because I like you I have refrained from addressing your hints about that kind of thinking.
> 
> Does this mean that you DON'T like ME? :XD:


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Okay, enough. This discussion has devolved into personal inanities, attacks and counter attacks. 

The conversation was going on with respect and rational exchanges. Disagreements are not the problem, it is the vituperative tone that has exploded here and it is disappointing seeing that happen. Maybe some find it amusing; I dont.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> DGreen said:
> 
> 
> > I've recognized your tendency to be a conspiracy theorist for a long time, but because I like you I have refrained from addressing your hints about that kind of thinking.
> ...


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

DGreen--how did I go over the top? you totally misread my post and went on a rant against me. It would be nice to see you correct yourself.

But I am glad that you see value in many of my posts.

I think the goal is to be able to talk respectfully. If people have a disagreement, hopefully it can be addressed with questions instead of accusations.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You and I agree on a lot of things, Nebraska. I'm pretty sure there are others matters where we disagree and I prefer not to bring those up. You are entitled to your beliefs. Until or unless comments go over the top as tamarque's did today, I'm happy to let those differences lie.
> 
> I think you add a lot to this forum. I think tamarque does, too.


I'm sorry and thank you for the compliment. I wasn't fishing, really. I just thought it was hilarious. I was just waiting for you to bite your tongue off and I couldn't help but laugh. You did hold out for a while. :XD:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> DGreen--how did I go over the top? you totally misread my post and went on a rant against me. It would be nice to see you correct yourself.
> 
> But I am glad that you see value in many of my posts.
> 
> I think the goal is to be able to talk respectfully. If people have a disagreement, hopefully it can be addressed with questions instead of accusations.


Its OK, really. She calls me a conspiracy theorist all of the time (for saying the same things you say). And she still likes me.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The people in Pakistan are holding up his picture. It has nothing to do with editing.


You were wondering why this was happening and asked what others thought. I offered a possible solution. Don't ask if you have no intention of showing some respect to the people who bother to respond.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> P:S I thought you missed me. You have been talking about me for the last two weeks.


That is so not true. I wish you would just buzz off. I really do.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Think of our EXs.


Must I?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Sorry. I can't tamp down my need to proofread and correct. I was born with it; I used to earn money at it; and if I lose friends over it, well, I just can't help it.


No big deal. Why would you imagine you'd lose friends over your need to proof read? Friends might see that as an endearing quirk of yours.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Even more important, why did she go back to that horribly abused cat avatar?


 :XD: Because she's a control freak. Ownership of a photo of that poor creature wrapped to within an inch of it's life in a tourniquet of sorts probably scratches an itch which quells the anxiety of her being out of control.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> You were wondering why this was happening and asked what others thought. I offered a possible solution. Don't ask if you have no intention of showing some respect to the people who bother to respond.


Did you think my response was disrespectful? It wasn't intended to be so.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> You held your tongue, good for you. As many don't hold their tongues, this could be why the police are always on edge. Even something so innocent as trying to keep drunks off the roads can result in an unwarranted confrontation. Job well done, you didn't follow through. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


The cop didn't hold his tongue. Couldn't help throwing out a barb. And because I didn't respond, I've kept the peace. It's not my job to keep the peace, it's the coppers job. He didn't do his job. THAT's why there are too many unwarranted confrontations. THAT's where the thumbdown applies.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I posted this last night and Tamarque is is only one to comment on it. Does no one think that it's strange that Pakistanis have put a photo of a Sandy Hook victim on their memorial wall and on their speaker's lectern? Its not a photo of a child that "looks like" Noah Pozner, its the exact photo that his parents made public. It was displayed on a big billboard, showing pictures of the victims of the Pakistani school shooting. Doesn't anybody think its strange?


Excuse me? I also responded and you had a go at my response. Get your facts straight Nebraska. You do this a lot.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Excuse me? I also responded and you had a go at my response. Get your facts straight Nebraska. You do this a lot.


I apologize. I was looking for more than that. Discussion?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I apologize. I was looking for more than that. Discussion?


Have you ever heard of Occam's razor? "The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."

Oh mercy!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Have you ever heard of Occam's razor? "The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
> 
> Oh mercy!


Perhaps you didn't understand? It was not the news stations claiming that the photo was that of a victim. It was the Pakistanis, who were presenting the photo, as a photo of one of THEIR victims.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Please, the mention of the apostrophes was just my way of saying "You're illiterate." I may not even have been wearing undies when I typed it.
> 
> But the only way to get a point across when dealing with a chronic liar or someone with dementia is to keep repeating it.
> 
> I don't expect an apology (though she deserves one), just an admission that you accused Designer of encouraging the wallpapering of your thread. You claimed you didn't, but here, for the second time, is the proof. If you can't retain it this time, then everyone will know about your dementia, brain damage, or inability to tell the truth even when it's staring you in the face.


You need to use a ruler.

What I was replying to is that after all those horrible posts from people she calls friends (and she chimed in too) coming over to D&P to wish those on that thread a Merry Christmas was disrespectful to the ladies that were so deeply wounded by the AOLW's intentional vicious attack on that thread without any remorse.

So if she (or any of you) felt remorse for that it has never been stated. It was a planned and relentless assault on a group of women that had no idea why, and that deeply hurt them to their religious and core moral beliefs. So any wishing of Christmas cheer was just adding insult to a deep injury and cruel.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Even more important, why did she go back to that horribly abused cat avatar?


Catching up here and have not read all the posts. Too hot yesterday, temperature 44.4C or 111.92F. So forgive me if this question has already been answered.

In my humble opinion I think she has gone back to that poor cat is because to the quick and casual observer the cat looks as if it is shaking its head in disbelief. To me the cat appears to be saying "Now let me put this, for the umpteenth time, in words of one syllable in order that a cretinous two year old may understand". Perhaps that is how she sees us, as 'cretinous two year olds' who have to be told again, and again, and again.

The avatar is scaring my cats, especially in this above century heat.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> "Our Muslim leaning President?" Does he tilt towards Mecca? What's a Muslim leaning person?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> LOL!! joey is the expert on Israel now? "And the hits just keep on coming!" :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: ROFL


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Catching up here and have not read all the posts. Too hot yesterday, temperature 44.4C or 111.92F. So forgive me if this question has already been answered.
> 
> In my humble opinion I think she has gone back to that poor cat is because to the quick and casual observer the cat looks as if it is shaking its head in disbelief. To me the cat appears to be saying "Now let me put this, for the umpteenth time, in words of one syllable in order that a cretinous two year old may understand". Perhaps that is how she sees us, as 'cretinous two year olds' who have to be told again, and again, and again.
> 
> The avatar is scaring my cats, especially in this above century heat.


What is that creature in your avatar holding toilet paper?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you. The Greeks continued to use "Palestine," as did the Turks. Besides, can there be peace for Israel if they behaved like joeysomma, covering their ears and singing "Nanana, there's no such place as Palestine, so I can't hear you"?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: This is a good night for laughter.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> If anyone spends enough time listening to Fox News, they will hear hundreds of things about President Obama that are not just untrue but absurd.
> 
> You can do it without Fox or the President. I've heard it said that the moon is made of green cream cheese. :shock:


Funny, I've heard that too. 
:XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I am surprised you, of all people, do not seem to care about what happens to Israel. Almost every Arab country in the Middle East wants to wipe Israel off the map. And you don't care.
> 
> Even Harper Collins published maps for the English speaking schools in the Middle East that did not include Israel in the maps, since it would be "unacceptable."


 :XD: :XD: :XD: You're so funny.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> What is that creature in your avatar holding toilet paper?


As Aussie Spitfire. We Aussies were having a discussion on another thread about them. I will see if I can send you some info on the spitfire. It is not holding toilet paper.

Spitfire Grubs
By Cris | June 6, 2013 | Animals
Tap Tap, Tap, Tap TapTapTapTapTapTapTap
	Spitfire grubs look similar to the caterpillars of buttterflies and moths, however they are the larvae of a species of sawfly, the adult having a saw-like egg laying system, and are a relative of the wasp.
	Spitfire grubs, also known as sawfly larvae, are an Australian species of Perga from the sub family Perginae, from the family Pergidae (sawflies), which comes from the order of Hymenoptera, which includes sawflies, wasps, bees and ants.
	Spitfire grubs are the babies of the sawfly species that includes the Steel Blue Sawfly (Perga dorsalis), Large Green Sawfly (Perga affinis), and the Eucalyptus Sawfly (Perga kirbyi), and the adult sawflies are rarely seen and are said to only live for about a week.
	The most well known spitfire grubs, the Steel Blue Sawfly larvae, have black bodies and white hairs, with yellow tails and a shiny black head, and the Large Green Sawfly larvae also look the same.
	Spitfire grubs are herbivores and generally eat the leaves from Eucalyptus trees, and can sometimes strip the tree of all its leaves, although some species feed on Melaleuca, Callistemon and Angophora trees.

	Spitfire grubs are said to be harmless although they can kill a young tree by eating all of its foliage, and the adult sawfly does not sting.
	Spitfire grubs feed during the night, usually alone, and during the day they cluster together in large groups of 20-30 (sometimes more) as a defence against potential predators.
	Spitfire grubs have three pairs of front legs, and none at the back, with a tail that they thump up and down or tap, with which they use to communicate to others in the group.
	Spitfire grubs grow up 80 mm (3 inches) in length and when they have finished growing they burrow into the soil to pupate and become an adult sawfly.
	As a defence, spitfire grubs squirt from their mouths a yellow liquid made from eucalyptus oil then they are attacked or threatened, hence the name spitfire.

Have a quick squizz at the thread

Why is Australia called Oz or Down Under? The spitfires start on Page 2.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Full moon?



lovethelake said:


> Why are you trying to stir things up again? It might be a violation of TOS. Trying to get someone else to do your dirty work?
> 
> The comment, though parsed, said she heard. Does not say she agrees. You have no idea what other's think of the total comment and within it's frame of reference.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: You're so funny.


Mrs. Somma is not being funny but telling the truth. The Israelis gave back Gaza and before they knew it, the Palestinians were bombing them. The Palestinians may talk two-state but they are out to eradicate Israel.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> Mrs. Somma is not being funny but telling the truth. The Israelis gave back Gaza and before they knew it, the Palestinians were bombing them. The Palestinians may talk two-state but they are out to eradicate Israel.


 :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sometimes people seem so harmless....or out of touch with reality....or suspicious....or even amusing...that it is easier to overlook what they say. Other times you just have to say, "The emperor is stark naked." This is such a time. I agree with what you say.



DGreen said:


> I've recognized your tendency to be a conspiracy theorist for a long time, but because I like you I have refrained from addressing your hints about that kind of thinking.
> 
> This post has pushed me past my desire to live and let live and to ignore those hints. GMOs, alternative medicine, control of the masses...any number of things. These references to 9-11 and Sandy Hook have pissed me right off.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Even more important, why did she go back to that horribly abused cat avatar?


To prove she's light in the loafers?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Why are you even writing to Designer if you're not prepared to admit you lied about her being a part of the wallpapering of D&P?
> 
> (And you use apostrophes where they don't belong. Learn how to use punctuation.)


That's using your red pencil in the very best way.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but there are many intelligent people who do not agree. I'm one. I've gotten over the inclination to engage in debate on these subjects. But I will not let such opinions go totally unanswered. Suffice to say, agree to disagree.



tamarque said:


> whoa there nelly! you are really overstepping bounds here. First of all get over this conspiracy theory crap. You obviously are blind to how repressive propaganda works. That is a phrase devised by the right to attack people with progressive perspectives. There is nothing theoretical about the false flags i listed.
> 
> Second, do you know what a False Flag is? You don't sound like you do. Let me try to politely educate you here. A False Flag was devised by pirates/sailors who would fly the flag of another country or ship in order to hide what they were really doing, or trying to slander another group or country. So where do hear me denying that 911 happened? You don't! So say you are sorry for not understanding.
> 
> ...


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Perhaps you didn't understand? It was not the news stations claiming that the photo was that of a victim. It was the Pakistanis, who were presenting the photo, as a photo of one of THEIR victims.


I understood very well. And the possible reason I offered was perfectly valid - lazy editing and the notion by the Pakistanis that the west couldn't care less and probably wouldn't even notice. Perhaps that's why the picture hasn't appeared on mainstream media.

Alright, I'll say it. It's propaganda perpetuated by the Pakistanis to highlight the in-depth world coverage of the Sandy Hook massacre as apposed to the less in-depth world coverage of their school massacre which demonstrates yet again, that the west works in evil ways to dominate the world.

(I mean absolutely no disrespect to the terrible tragedy of both massacres).


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> FYI: I do not own the photograph. It is from the same website where Bratty Patty found the picture of the cat with the blue sweater.
> 
> Here is the website: http://www.technocrazed.com/the-top-28-cat-sweater-designs-photo-gallery


So that makes you using it okay? Oh lordy be!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

exerpt from Tamarque to DGreen:

"Now you seem like a decent, well intentioned person who is doing some political work which is good. But your rant on me tells me that you are pretty naive and politically timid.

I am sorry that information discussed here is blowing your bubble but you might just try to learn from those of us who have more experience than you do. It might do you some good to try and learn from us, maybe make you a better political organizer."

to tamarque from damemary:

DGreen is certainly not naive nor politically timid. There is as much truth in this statement as there are in your statements about our government. I am dismayed by your statements and your tone. Enough said, I think.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> You need to use a ruler.
> 
> What I was replying to is that after all those horrible posts from people she calls friends (and she chimed in too) coming over to D&P to wish those on that thread a Merry Christmas was disrespectful to the ladies that were so deeply wounded by the AOLW's intentional vicious attack on that thread without any remorse.
> 
> So if she (or any of you) felt remorse for that it has never been stated. It was a planned and relentless assault on a group of women that had no idea why, and that deeply hurt them to their religious and core moral beliefs. So any wishing of Christmas cheer was just adding insult to a deep injury and cruel.


And you need a ruler to whip yo' a$$! Hearts are bleeding all over the world tonight for you and your poor defeated, deflated and defunct brethren.

Blame the real problem. Your Fearless Ruler! Oops, I meant Leader!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but there are many intelligent people who do not agree. I'm one. I've gotten over the inclination to engage in debate on these subjects. But I will not let such opinions go totally unanswered. Suffice to say, agree to disagree.


tamarque there are some very intelligent well read people on this thread. I think you have a right to your opinion, but so do all of us. I would think that at least 90% of us don't agree with you and never will. You are saying the same things about my country. It just is not the case - I have not seen one sign of it and have lived here a long time.

So please don't lecture us. We try to discuss not override or ridicule others opinions on this thread. It is why it works for us.

=====
I had my family arrive so couldn't do the project - will do it tomorrow and send you the information. I think you will do a great job -just a few things to show you and you will do a very good job of running your workshop. I applaud you for agreeing to help out and hopefully make a decision that is good for you and the workshops.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Are you and ltl two little lambs who have lost your way? Bah, bah, bah.



knitpresentgifts said:


> Thanks, LTL - exactly right! Designer and PP can barely write a post without referring to someone from the Denim thread and insulting them without cause. Their hatred runs deep and now they must do their own dirty work as their mentor, Vocal Lisa, can no longer do it for them. They cannot even shadow quote her any more as Admin is quick to delete her posts.
> 
> P.S. I haven't read this thread for awhile and learned today, it is the same crap and insults of those who aren't even posting here. It all about who they can run down. Disgusting. Designer lied and put words in my mouth by saying "end quote" = nothing new. She cannot exist without reading and commenting on threads other than Denim about what is said on Denim and is always looking for a fight where none exists. Let them run themselves into the ground LTL. They cannot ignore us, they are obsessed with us and the friendships we've made, but we can certainly ignore them!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> exerpt from Tamarque to DGreen:
> 
> "Now you seem like a decent, well intentioned person who is doing some political work which is good. But your rant on me tells me that you are pretty naive and politically timid.
> 
> ...


Insults are not accepted here. You talk down to those who disagree with you. Not very productive as you get people's backs up. Green has every right to tell you her opinions - you certainly tell us yours. We reallly make the effort to be good friends here.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I agree. Tamarque, at heart we/re talking about individual opinions and experiences. For example, I still believe the police are my friends because I grew up in Berkeley, CA where police officers had to have a BA to have their applications to the BPD considered at all, and were better trained than other police. Also, I've never been on the wrong side of the law. Generally, when I'm polite to a police officer, the police officer responds in the same and I've lived in several large cities.
> 
> The BPD managed to thread its way through the 60s pretty well, but there were always some people who had the knee jerk reaction that they were as bad as the Oakland PD and the Alameda County Sherriffs' Department, both policing organizations that are still as awful today as they were 50 years ago.
> 
> Tamarque, it seems like you're as attached to and swallow what your sources of information say just as any of the folks over at D&P.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> I am way behind reading the posts and therefore cannot respond individually with at least some intelligence. I must however state that either some folks are going bunkers simply due to age or are ingesting stuff that creates theories as LSD once brought forth. Mystery Writers should be looking in to extract some really "funny" stuff. My goodness the fantasy some people have. Are we having a greater number of psychotics here than are in the general population? It sure seems like it. Huck


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: I know you're not joking. Full moon, perhaps?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> Well snap, you appear to be a very angry person. I will not admit to a lie that I did not do. But your constant badgering for an apology that I do not have to make proves the definition of insanity...........doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. And getting your undies in a twist over a misplaced " ' " is hilarious.


Nice try (for you), but the lie stands.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> You need to use a ruler.
> 
> What I was replying to is that after all those horrible posts from people she calls friends (and she chimed in too) coming over to D&P to wish those on that thread a Merry Christmas was disrespectful to the ladies that were so deeply wounded by the AOLW's intentional vicious attack on that thread without any remorse.
> 
> So if she (or any of you) felt remorse for that it has never been stated. It was a planned and relentless assault on a group of women that had no idea why, and that deeply hurt them to their religious and core moral beliefs. So any wishing of Christmas cheer was just adding insult to a deep injury and cruel.


I received private thanks from people who don't agree with you. Yarnie had the courage to return my Christmas greetings. Think what you wish. You are not a kind, or nice person. YOu twist things and you lie, you jump when there is no reason to jump you insult whether your reasons are true or not. Our biggest criminal intent is that we don't hate The President. You are blinded by you hatred and in no way will you ever change. Just leave me alone. I had no intention of going to D and P until CB asked me three times to go and defend Bonnie-- Bonnie is myfriend so I did. CBchanged her tune and implied that she told me to go there to see how the libs were treating my friend. I have the copies of all the messages received from all the DP 'friends'. I did go because I was under the impression that I was asked to try to stop an attack on Bonnie - I went and did say that Bonnie was myfriend, and then I left. So lie as much as you want to. I know that none of your cronies will ever admit what really happened. They know I am not the evil person you and KPG accuse me of being but then you all have to stick together and never admit your are ever wrong. You would have so much more respect if you just once in your life faced and admitted the possibility that you are unfair and wrong. Leave me alone.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Please, the mention of the apostrophes was just my way of saying "You're illiterate." I may not even have been wearing undies when I typed it.
> 
> But the only way to get a point across when dealing with a chronic liar or someone with dementia is to keep repeating it.
> 
> I don't expect an apology (though she deserves one), just an admission that you accused Designer of encouraging the wallpapering of your thread. You claimed you didn't, but here, for the second time, is the proof. If you can't retain it this time, then everyone will know about your dementia, brain damage, or inability to tell the truth even when it's staring you in the face.


 :hunf: :hunf: :hunf: :hunf: Well put. Persistence at its (no apostrophe) best.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I posted this last night and Tamarque is is only one to comment on it. Does no one think that it's strange that Pakistanis have put a photo of a Sandy Hook victim on their memorial wall and on their speaker's lectern? Its not a photo of a child that "looks like" Noah Pozner, its the exact photo that his parents made public. It was displayed on a big billboard, showing pictures of the victims of the Pakistani school shooting. Doesn't anybody think its strange?


No. I think it's just more lying fictitious blogs masquerading as news.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for the invitation to visit D&P. For the moment I must decline your offer.



soloweygirl said:


> "We are not interested in one thing you say" - then please explain why you were lurking and reading D&P for nasty comments about your workshops and Tamarque? This alone proves that you ARE indeed INTERESTED in what is said on D&P. The fact that you copied this post and others from D&P to this thread also indicates that you are interested in what is said on D&P. Your words say one thing and your actions say another. This is one reason that LIAR is an appropriate description.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Shirley's a truly nice person who has real friends. That seems to infuriate them.



SQM said:


> Boy they Surely know how to blow their top over Shirley.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Keep it up SQM. It is Shirley who blows.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> OOOOOO. You sound like a mean mommy. Keep it up SQM. You should have said that to my EX.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Naughty and nice.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Your welcome. But realize that I do not believe in the Bible other than as literature and in some instances, history. The US will not disappear but become allies with the prominent Arabs that will support American markets. The Jews in America can then be labeled "Enemy Aliens". That is why I need Israel to exist so I can have an exit strategy. 

Ha Ha. I may get dumped on tonight with you and Bumps thanking me. Hee Haw.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Tamarque, your understanding is based on how you interpret what you *believe* is unbiased information and documented fact. The catch is that there is no such thing as purely objective information. Objectivity doesn't exist.

I don't know if many here are obviously privileged. I'm white and the product of the blue-collar intelligentsia. My father was active in the post-WWII Civil Rights movement, acting as what was then called a "block buster", that is someone who pretended to be Mr. ***** or Mr. Jew so those people could buy homes in neighborhoods they wouldn't have been allowed to live in otherwise. Would that it had been unnecessary, but he did effect change within his sphere of influence. I am well aware of what my skin color means, and the automatic status it gives me.

As soon as you use the word "entitlement" you alienate yourself from me and put yourself in the same category as that of the RWNs who persist in calling the benefits I've earned from *my* society "entitlements". I have no illusions that what you call my "privileges" will continue to exist as they do now. However, I hope that the conditions I live under won't change substantially before I die. This is a good example of my foolish optimism. In spite of that, I don't base my hopes or opinions on what feels good.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> So tell me PP--you think this government doesn't support wholesale slaughter of people? You think that it is a theory that is too way out to accept?
> 
> Let me ask you something. Why does the idea of a runaway, nefarious government disturb you? You seem to understand the control of the government by the corporations. You seem to understand the media is not the friend of the people. You seem to recognize that the police are not friends of the people, particularly people of color. But are you then rejecting the entire picture of what all this behavior creates? Is it that scary to you to think that a government that supports the mass murder of 1.5 million Iraqis wouldn't support the killing of 3000 people in the US?
> 
> These thoughts may be unsettling, but how is change to occur if people refuse to look at reality?


I just don't agree that the government is "nefarious." I don't think everyone in power is so evil that they would murder their own people, wholesale. (I have to admit, some might do it one at a time, but not Stalin-style wholesale.)

I don't agree that the media are totally against the people, but then I NEVER watch TV news. I could be wrong, but it would take a lot of planning to get away with _everything_ you accuse them of.

AND I think this is not the same government as the one that invaded Iraq. Unlike KFN, I think there are differences between administrations.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I posted this last night and Tamarque is is only one to comment on it. Does no one think that it's strange that Pakistanis have put a photo of a Sandy Hook victim on their memorial wall and on their speaker's lectern? Its not a photo of a child that "looks like" Noah Pozner, its the exact photo that his parents made public. It was displayed on a big billboard, showing pictures of the victims of the Pakistani school shooting. Doesn't anybody think its strange?


I don't think it's strange. Someone asked for pictures of the dead kids; someone else grabbed up whatever pictures he saw around; and that picture happened to be on a nearby desk. I've seen similar things happen in the US, in other contexts.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> "We are not interested in one thing you say" - then please explain why you were lurking and reading D&P for nasty comments about your workshops and Tamarque? This alone proves that you ARE indeed INTERESTED in what is said on D&P. The fact that you copied this post and others from D&P to this thread also indicates that you are interested in what is said on D&P. Your words say one thing and your actions say another. This is one reason that LIAR is an appropriate description.


Once again you insert yourself where it has nothing to do with you. I visited the thread for at least 3 minutes -- I have been attacked about the workshop on two or three different occasions - I just made Tamarque a manager and was wondering if the same thing was going to happen to her. I saw the post that one of your members said SHE HAD READ and it was so interesting and so unbelievable I quoted the quote, i but did not include the poster. Who by the way came here and called me a liar once again, and even though I copied her words, she still twisted them. She admitted it was her. I don't intend to speak her name - you all know who she was. So why don't you quit inserting your self and making accusations you know are incorrect.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> "We are not interested in one thing you say" - then please explain why you were lurking and reading D&P for nasty comments about your workshops and Tamarque? This alone proves that you ARE indeed INTERESTED in what is said on D&P. The fact that you copied this post and others from D&P to this thread also indicates that you are interested in what is said on D&P. Your words say one thing and your actions say another. This is one reason that LIAR is an appropriate description.


Nice of you to speak for mommy, instead of waiting for her to speak for herself.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Boy they Surely know how to blow their top over Shirley.


She must have done something horrible to them, like --- I have no idea what she could have done to get them so worked up.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> DGreen said:
> 
> 
> > I've recognized your tendency to be a conspiracy theorist for a long time, but because I like you I have refrained from addressing your hints about that kind of thinking.
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: Because she's a control freak. Ownership of a photo of that poor creature wrapped to within an inch of it's life in a tourniquet of sorts probably scratches an itch which quells the anxiety of her being out of control.


This is hilarious. What a great description: in a tourniquet, scratching an itch. Here's what that cat should be doing.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> You need to use a ruler.
> 
> What I was replying to is that after all those horrible posts from people she calls friends (and she chimed in too) coming over to D&P to wish those on that thread a Merry Christmas was disrespectful to the ladies that were so deeply wounded by the AOLW's intentional vicious attack on that thread without any remorse.
> 
> So if she (or any of you) felt remorse for that it has never been stated. It was a planned and relentless assault on a group of women that had no idea why, and that deeply hurt them to their religious and core moral beliefs. So any wishing of Christmas cheer was just adding insult to a deep injury and cruel.


Tell me, why would grown women get so upset at seeing anti-Republican cartoons?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Catching up here and have not read all the posts. Too hot yesterday, temperature 44.4C or 111.92F. So forgive me if this question has already been answered.
> 
> In my humble opinion I think she has gone back to that poor cat is because to the quick and casual observer the cat looks as if it is shaking its head in disbelief. To me the cat appears to be saying "Now let me put this, for the umpteenth time, in words of one syllable in order that a cretinous two year old may understand". Perhaps that is how she sees us, as 'cretinous two year olds' who have to be told again, and again, and again.
> 
> The avatar is scaring my cats, especially in this above century heat.


Or maybe she is the cretinous two year old who thinks that picture is a nice one.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Nice of you to speak for mommy, instead of waiting for her to speak for herself.


I just noticed you quoted me in your signature. Way cool! Many thanks!!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> To prove she's light in the loafers?


Is "loafer" some slang word for "brain" that I've never heard before?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I understood very well. And the possible reason I offered was perfectly valid - lazy editing and the notion by the Pakistanis that the west couldn't care less and probably wouldn't even notice. Perhaps that's why the picture hasn't appeared on mainstream media.
> 
> Alright, I'll say it. It's propaganda perpetuated by the Pakistanis to highlight the in-depth world coverage of the Sandy Hook massacre as apposed to the less in-depth world coverage of their school massacre which demonstrates yet again, that the west works in evil ways to dominate the world.
> 
> (I mean absolutely no disrespect to the terrible tragedy of both massacres).


With all due respect,

:XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> And you need a ruler to whip yo' a$$! Hearts are bleeding all over the world tonight for you and your poor defeated, deflated and defunct brethren.
> 
> Blame the real problem. Your Fearless Ruler! Oops, I meant Leader!


I do believe the Wombat got into the catnip.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I received private thanks from people who don't agree with you. Yarnie had the courage to return my Christmas greetings. Think what you wish. You are not a kind, or nice person. YOu twist things and you lie, you jump when there is no reason to jump you insult whether your reasons are true or not. Our biggest criminal intent is that we don't hate The President. You are blinded by you hatred and in no way will you ever change. Just leave me alone. I had no intention of going to D and P until CB asked me three times to go and defend Bonnie-- Bonnie is myfriend so I did. CBchanged her tune and implied that she told me to go there to see how the libs were treating my friend. I have the copies of all the messages received from all the DP 'friends'. I did go because I was under the impression that I was asked to try to stop an attack on Bonnie - I went and did say that Bonnie was myfriend, and then I left. So lie as much as you want to. I know that none of your cronies will ever admit what really happened. They know I am not the evil person you and KPG accuse me of being but then you all have to stick together and never admit your are ever wrong. You would have so much more respect if you just once in your life faced and admitted the possibility that you are unfair and wrong. Leave me alone.


You've said so much more than I could. I'm going to let sleeping lies lie where LTL is concerned. Though I was having some fun pestering her.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> :hunf: :hunf: :hunf: :hunf: Well put. Persistence at its (no apostrophe) best.


Designer put it better. I'm throwing in the towel. (BTW, I really was wearing undies while typing. Just wanted to shock them.)


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Tamarque, your understanding is based on how you interpret what you *believe* is unbiased information and documented fact. The catch is that there is no such thing as purely objective information. Objectivity doesn't exist.
> 
> I don't know if many here are obviously privileged. I'm white and the product of the blue-collar intelligentsia. My father was active in the post-WWII Civil Rights movement, acting as what was then called a "block buster", that is someone who pretended to be Mr. ***** or Mr. Jew so those people could buy homes in neighborhoods they wouldn't have been allowed to live in otherwise. Would that it had been unnecessary, but he did effect change within his sphere of influence. I am well aware of what my skin color means, and the automatic status it gives me.
> 
> As soon as you use the word "entitlement" you alienate yourself from me and put yourself in the same category as that of the RWNs who persist in calling the benefits I've earned from *my* society "entitlements". I have no illusions that what you call my "privileges" will continue to exist as they do now. However, I hope that the conditions I live under won't change substantially before I die. This is a good example of my foolish optimism. In spite of that, I don't base my hopes or opinions on what feels good.


Very well said, Maid. Thank you.

The New Yorker has a piece this week on Mayor DeBlasio that quotes James Baldwin.

David Remnick: In 1960, James Baldwin, the American Orwell, wrote Fifth Avenue, Uptown: A Letter from Harlem, an essay that portrayed the ugly dynamic between white police officers and young black men in the neighborhood where he grew up:

_Rare, indeed, is the Harlem citizen, from the most circumspect church member to the most shiftless adolescent, who does not have a long tale to tell of police incompetence, injustice, or brutality. I myself have witnessed and endured it more than once. . . . It is hard, on the other hand, to blame the policeman, blank, good-natured, thoughtless, and insuperably innocent, for being such a perfect representative of the people he serves. He, too, believes in good intentions and is astounded and offended when they are not taken for the deed. He has never, himself, done anything for which to be hatedwhich of us has?and yet he is facing, daily and nightly, people who would gladly see him dead, and he knows it. There is no way for him not to know it: there are few things under heaven more unnerving than the silent, accumulating contempt and hatred of a people._

The piece continues (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/01/12/fire-time ), but I really wanted to point out how, despite the work people like your father did and despite the laws that have been passed, here it is, 55 years later, and Baldwin could have been writing today, for all the change that's occurred.

I feel like crying.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I just noticed you quoted me in your signature. Way cool! Many thanks!!


I did it yesterday. I loved what you said. Almost as good as County Bumpkins' quote. :twisted:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Have friends that like and admire her?



Poor Purl said:


> She must have done something horrible to them, like --- I have no idea what she could have done to get them so worked up.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I've heard it used that way. Did you hear about the moon and green cheese?



Poor Purl said:


> Is "loafer" some slang word for "brain" that I've never heard before?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You raised my eyebrow.



Poor Purl said:


> Designer put it better. I'm throwing in the towel. (BTW, I really was wearing undies while typing. Just wanted to shock them.)


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Magnificent article. And very, very sad indeed.



Poor Purl said:


> Very well said, Maid. Thank you.
> 
> The New Yorker has a piece this week on Mayor DeBlasio that quotes James Baldwin.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Is it time to stop? Has all the important stuff been said?



Poor Purl said:


> I did it yesterday. I loved what you said. Almost as good as County Bumpkins' quote. :twisted:


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

SQM said:


> Mrs. Somma is not being funny but telling the truth. The Israelis gave back Gaza and before they knew it, the Palestinians were bombing them. The Palestinians may talk two-state but they are out to eradicate Israel.


I think people if people here can't handle truths about what drives this country, they will never handle the hasbara coming out of Israel and supported by this govt.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I apologize. I was looking for more than that. Discussion?


This discussion has shown me how difficult it is for people to take in the extreme level of manipulative propaganda that is promoted by this country. Of course other countries do the same. The more powerful the country, the greater the propaganda.

Who has forgotten The Selling of the President, the book that exposed and detailed how Nixon was sold to the public by Madison Avenue. No one talks about it anymore since it has become common practice and the public has been dulled into accepting this form of indoctrination.

I have no idea about that particular picture but I do know that photoshop works worldwide. And I do know that the government and its propaganda organs, mass media, are always being caught selling such blatant lies. Without further research we have no idea if this actually did happen in Pakistan or was something some a..hole at Fox 5 news put together for incitement.

I also remember a photo from the Kosovo war showing these desperate looking people behind a fence. The news was they were starving, dirty and in disreputable camps. The problem was that the photo was taken from inside the wire fence and the people who were claimed to be imprisoned were outside.

Many photos misrepresented in the news. On this one, I don't know the history or any of the details and cannot react with judgement one way or the other than to raise some serious question about its veracity on one hand and the intent of its publication on the other.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

damemary said:


> You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but there are many intelligent people who do not agree. I'm one. I've gotten over the inclination to engage in debate on these subjects. But I will not let such opinions go totally unanswered. Suffice to say, agree to disagree.


Actually intelligence has little to do with these disagreements. It it was about intelligence all that is required is to do some more reading and study. Perhaps read what articles I send, or perhaps ask some serious questions about sources. But your disagreement is not about intelligence; it is about emotions. You are not comfortable with information that contradicts what you believe in. A belief system is never about intelligence. It is all about faith based learning, emotional training.

So your criticism of the information I present is more about your cognitive dissonance than it is about fact. I challenge you to question your own comfort zones. Ask yourself what it would mean to you if I am right in the things I say. Do you have the courage to really step outside the box.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I understood very well. And the possible reason I offered was perfectly valid - lazy editing and the notion by the Pakistanis that the west couldn't care less and probably wouldn't even notice. Perhaps that's why the picture hasn't appeared on mainstream media.
> 
> Alright, I'll say it. It's propaganda perpetuated by the Pakistanis to highlight the in-depth world coverage of the Sandy Hook massacre as apposed to the less in-depth world coverage of their school massacre which demonstrates yet again, that the west works in evil ways to dominate the world.
> 
> (I mean absolutely no disrespect to the terrible tragedy of both massacres).


That is an interesting thought. We have no idea what the Pakistanis are really saying as we rely on translations by Guess Who. What if they were simply saying the world makes a big deal about Sandy Hook, but where are they when Pakistani children are murdered? That would be a pretty valid position considering all the American drone killings in that country and elsewhere.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

damemary said:


> exerpt from Tamarque to DGreen:
> 
> "Now you seem like a decent, well intentioned person who is doing some political work which is good. But your rant on me tells me that you are pretty naive and politically timid.
> 
> ...


Not enough said. Where does DGreen or anyone for that matter attack me for my positions. This is as close minded as it gets. And if she, or you, or anyone thinks you can trash my opinions because you are uncomfortable with them, then why shouldn't I be allowed to call it like I see it. It goes both ways.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> If we become Allies with the Arabs, no one will recognize the US. No women's rights, no homosexuals and Sharia law will become the law of the land. (my opinion).


That's just stupid.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Tamarque, your understanding is based on how you interpret what you *believe* is unbiased information and documented fact. The catch is that there is no such thing as purely objective information. Objectivity doesn't exist.
> 
> I don't know if many here are obviously privileged. I'm white and the product of the blue-collar intelligentsia. My father was active in the post-WWII Civil Rights movement, acting as what was then called a "block buster", that is someone who pretended to be Mr. ***** or Mr. Jew so those people could buy homes in neighborhoods they wouldn't have been allowed to live in otherwise. Would that it had been unnecessary, but he did effect change within his sphere of influence. I am well aware of what my skin color means, and the automatic status it gives me.
> 
> As soon as you use the word "entitlement" you alienate yourself from me and put yourself in the same category as that of the RWNs who persist in calling the benefits I've earned from *my* society "entitlements". I have no illusions that what you call my "privileges" will continue to exist as they do now. However, I hope that the conditions I live under won't change substantially before I die. This is a good example of my foolish optimism. In spite of that, I don't base my hopes or opinions on what feels good.


Some interesting background that I assume would have made clear to you the nature of class differences in our society. I am acutely aware of the issue of redlining communities to keep them all white or all of a particular economic class. It was those kinds of stings that made the reality of prejudice in housing 'real.' The same thing happened in banking.

I have often attacked the concept of pure objectivity myself but there are things that do have objectivity or fact. When you look at numbers they speak volumes about what it happening. When you see that disproportionate numbers of Black people end up in prison working at less than $1/hour for private owners who rake in millions, this is not subjective believe system. When you go into public schools in poor neighborhoods and they have no books in the classrooms, this is not 'belief' but fact.

Why are you bothered by the word 'entitlement,' or privilege? As a white person you have both by birth. Why not take responsibility for having that and understand that others never will. That IS the class system. And it works with race. It works with sex/gender. It works with disability.

I find it typically defensive to speak to wanting your lifestyle to continue as if you were being challenged to give it up. It is that kind of statement that informs me about your understandings.

And, no. My understandings are not based on subjective belief. They are based on research and collective experience, most often often of people who are victimized by the system.

But you are right that sources are critical. And that is why I look for independent sources. And I look at several of them on issues. And more importantly I try to find the money behind the writer.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Very well said, Maid. Thank you.
> 
> The New Yorker has a piece this week on Mayor DeBlasio that quotes James Baldwin.
> 
> ...


I was ut of the US workplace in the 1990s when I lived in Canada. I was struck by the increased numbers of African-Americans in the workplace. My experience was a bit skewed in that I worked for a large HMO with a very low glass ceiling. Women and African-Americans were working at very high level jobs in numbers that pretty closely met the percentage of them in general. That doesn't mean I disagree with the idea that Baldwin's letter couldn't be written today.

It seems to me that poor African-Americans are still living in almost the same conditions they were 50 years ago. This is the Civil Rights Movement we need to see happen today. Until he was assassinated, Malcolm X was one of very few activists who represented the poor African-Americans. I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist, but I believe Malcolm X was assassinated because he was too dangerous precisely because he did represent poor African-Americans.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Do you ever consider you may be wrong? Questioning your comfort zone? Try it. It's not just advice for others. And people don't like to be patronized.



tamarque said:


> Actually intelligence has little to do with these disagreements. It it was about intelligence all that is required is to do some more reading and study. Perhaps read what articles I send, or perhaps ask some serious questions about sources. But your disagreement is not about intelligence; it is about emotions. You are not comfortable with information that contradicts what you believe in. A belief system is never about intelligence. It is all about faith based learning, emotional training.
> 
> So your criticism of the information I present is more about your cognitive dissonance than it is about fact. I challenge you to question your own comfort zones. Ask yourself what it would mean to you if I am right in the things I say. Do you have the courage to really step outside the box.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

tamarque said:


> Not enough said. Where does DGreen or anyone for that matter attack me for my positions. This is as close minded as it gets. And if she, or you, or anyone thinks you can trash my opinions because you are uncomfortable with them, then why shouldn't I be allowed to call it like I see it. It goes both ways.


I don't think an all-out political battle is a good way to work on a workshop together. Do you?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That's why it came from joey. (Sorry. I couldn't resist.)



DGreen said:


> That's just stupid.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I did it yesterday. I loved what you said. Almost as good as County Bumpkins' quote. :twisted:


:XD:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

tamarque said:


> whoa there nelly! you are really overstepping bounds here. First of all get over this conspiracy theory crap. You obviously are blind to how repressive propaganda works. That is a phrase devised by the right to attack people with progressive perspectives. There is nothing theoretical about the false flags i listed.
> 
> Second, do you know what a False Flag is? You don't sound like you do. Let me try to politely educate you here. A False Flag was devised by pirates/sailors who would fly the flag of another country or ship in order to hide what they were really doing, or trying to slander another group or country. So where do hear me denying that 911 happened? You don't! So say you are sorry for not understanding.
> 
> ...


Tamarque, you and I agree on a huge range of issues. I spent quite a bit of time going back through your postings and our political outlooks are quite similar when it comes to the importance of equality, decent public education and the need to resist privatization, the outrage of private prisons, the need for people to take personal responsibility for their health and so many other issues. I even agree that conspiracies are everywhere if one defines "conspiracy" as a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful. I would add the idea that a conspiracy can also be a group's plan (not necessarily secret) to advance ones' own political or economic interest. Old as time.

Your posts are laced with comments about a wide range of conspiracies. You see them everywhere, and while you may be strictly correct, your penchant for hammering on that issue is sometimes tedious. You have made many statements about conspiracies to repress research on GMO's, that the allopathic medical community likes to sterilize women because of the profit and to keep them on a lifetime of drugs (presumably as a conspiracy with pharma), that mainstream medicine strives to keep people sick and conspires with mainstream media to do so. You say policing has always been a means to control "the masses" for the benefit of the elite. That there is a conspiracy to make Americans dependent on manufactured food. Always, there is the underlying suggestion that all of these things are designed to manipulate the people into being submissive, numb to change, ignorant and confused. Additionally, your general tone does not always acknowledge that these are your beliefs; you state them as facts and strongly imply that anyone who does not agree or who does not read and believe what you read is ill-informed and blind to reality. For example, I personally think Mercola is a quack, engages in junk science and has a little too much profit motive. So what? If his advice works for you and if you feel he has helped you, I have no problem with that. Do what works for you and I can ignore him. Simple. Think GMOs are poison? Avoid them and it doesn't affect me in the least. But please don't tell me that I'm ignorant and close-minded when I choose to do what is right for me - based on my own experience, understanding and beliefs. I'm not stupid and I'm not ignorant and I'm not close-minded. I most certainly do not need to patronized by you. I'm not a fool. I know that capitalism will always try to convince me to part with my money and they'll lie to do it. I know from experience that capitalism will always try to extract the most work for the least money and that they hate unions. Hell, I was fired from a job for union organizing not that long ago. And yes, I can identify and recognize these thing for what they are.

Let me remind you that the "masses" for which you display such disdain is made up of people like me and the other ladies here, many of whom do not share your dark view of our ability to think or form opinions for ourselves. I personally have a much higher opinion of people than you seem to have.

I am often annoyed at your authoritarian tone, even if I agree with whatever message you are relaying. It is clear you are well-read and are exceptionally analytical, but your opinions and analyses are yours. My analysis may be different; the other ladies' analysis may be different. I personally choose to forego excruciating analysis of the whys and history of the world we live in, in favor of identifying what I see as a problem and then trying to figure out how to resolve it. I'm aware of my own limitations so I have to pick and choose how to focus my energy and efforts. Me? I'm more pragmatic. There's a place in the world for both of us.

As for the issues of 9-11 and Sandy Hook, your comments were unbearably provocative to me. If you want to believe in the sinister plot of the New World Order, go ahead and believe. (I think a conspiracy on such a massive scale is an absurdity on a massive scale, so I can laugh it off). However, I believe in our system of government on a deep, even visceral level, and I also believe each of us who chooses to participate can make a difference within the system. I believe we have major problems in the US, but I also believe we have the means to correct them because the pendulum always, always, swings. It's the best we have but we have to work at preserving it. I simply do not believe that huge numbers of people in government and politics are part of some nefarious conspiracy, which is what it would take for the US government to have planned and executed 9-11 and Sandy Hook. The suggestion that our government is an evil, manipulative pawn of some "other" power, willing and capable of murder and subterfuge on a scale that you suggest strikes at the very core of my beliefs. When you used the word "alleged" regarding the attack of 9-11, when you raised questions about possible involvement of our government in Sandy Hook, you hit a raw nerve. Then you doubled down and suggested that I should listen to you if I am interested in the truth. I find that superior attitude troubling and offensive.

Peace, Sister.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> "Our Muslim leaning President?" Does he tilt towards Mecca? What's a Muslim leaning person?


cookiequeen
you see when facts and figures are very positive re. the accomplishments of President Obama, the ones who hate him with a passion are grabbing at anything that is negative and can never be substantiated. When one hears voices, one gets very nutty information. "Leaning Muslim" fits that picture. Let's face it some folks are dancing to a different Drummer.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Thanks, LTL - exactly right! Designer and PP can barely write a post without referring to someone from the Denim thread and insulting them without cause. Their hatred runs deep and now they must do their own dirty work as their mentor, Vocal Lisa, can no longer do it for them. They cannot even shadow quote her any more as Admin is quick to delete her posts.
> 
> P.S. I haven't read this thread for awhile and learned today, it is the same crap and insults of those who aren't even posting here. It all about who they can run down. Disgusting. Designer lied and put words in my mouth by saying "end quote" = nothing new. She cannot exist without reading and commenting on threads other than Denim about what is said on Denim and is always looking for a fight where none exists. Let them run themselves into the ground LTL. They cannot ignore us, they are obsessed with us and the friendships we've made, but we can certainly ignore them!


knitpresentgifts
your decline is gaining speed.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> Boy they Surely know how to blow their top over Shirley.


SQM
and Shirley has been one of the most equalizing voices here. Does that not tell us a lot about the "other" folks?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> knitpresentgifts
> your decline is gaining speed.


 :XD: :XD:


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> That is so not true. I wish you would just buzz off. I really do.


Wombatnomore
let joeysomma hang around, she has no other outlet for her ranting. After all we are the ones who are liberal in many respects.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> You need to use a ruler.
> 
> What I was replying to is that after all those horrible posts from people she calls friends (and she chimed in too) coming over to D&P to wish those on that thread a Merry Christmas was disrespectful to the ladies that were so deeply wounded by the AOLW's intentional vicious attack on that thread without any remorse.
> 
> So if she (or any of you) felt remorse for that it has never been stated. It was a planned and relentless assault on a group of women that had no idea why, and that deeply hurt them to their religious and core moral beliefs. So any wishing of Christmas cheer was just adding insult to a deep injury and cruel.


lovethelake,
get over it, you are beating a dead horse to smithereens. Shirley meant well and you are looking to remove that in your usual ugly manner.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but there are many intelligent people who do not agree. I'm one. I've gotten over the inclination to engage in debate on these subjects. But I will not let such opinions go totally unanswered. Suffice to say, agree to disagree.


damemary
I frequently get the feeling that what some folks carry in their head (weird dreams) turns into reality for them. Poor Souls.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Thank you SQM. I am not an expert on Israel. That is why I quote news articles on the internet. And I *do *give the website so they can be checked (unlike others that post on this thread). These are not my opinions, other than Israel is entitled to the land they have now and much more because it was promised to them in the Bible. If Israel is defeated, so will the US disappear. The land and the name will still be here. But we will not recognize it. (also my opinion).


joeysomma
you are reaching the "outer limits". Hang on before you crash.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Sounds like you support the Palestinian side rather than Israel's right to exist.


joeysomma
you always need to put a twist on things, don't you. I think that support goes to the People of both Nations but not to their present day governments.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

tamarque said:


> I think people if people here can't handle truths about what drives this country, they will never handle the hasbara coming out of Israel and supported by this govt.


I don't know what hasbara means but my sources are Israelis living in Israel and informed Jews in NYC.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I don't know what hasbara means but my sources are Israelis living in Israel and informed Jews in NYC.


hasbara=propaganda


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Actually intelligence has little to do with these disagreements. It it was about intelligence all that is required is to do some more reading and study. Perhaps read what articles I send, or perhaps ask some serious questions about sources. But your disagreement is not about intelligence; it is about emotions. You are not comfortable with information that contradicts what you believe in. A belief system is never about intelligence. It is all about faith based learning, emotional training.
> 
> So your criticism of the information I present is more about your cognitive dissonance than it is about fact. I challenge you to question your own comfort zones. Ask yourself what it would mean to you if I am right in the things I say. Do you have the courage to really step outside the box.


You post is over the top and very judgmental. You preach to people . It is a fact that you have read lots of links that agree with your ideas. Have you bothered to read the topics that disagree? I believe completely you have the right to your ideas but when someone disagrees you react with near insults- You don't know these woman and actually you don't know where Our beliefs originated so please don't be so 
sure we are wrong and you are right. It is much like what happens to people on the other thread. They don't want to accept anyone elses opinion. Theirs is the only right one.

None of us are fools and it is difficult when sometimes you come across as expressing that you think we are fools if you don't mean to give that impression, maybe you could be a bit more forgiving of those of us (actually I believe most of us) don't agree with you.

========
Enough - I am going to post the link to the Workshop Happenings and I sent you an individual copy. I post them on the KTea Party , here and on L.O.L.L. and a few other places.

send me a note as to what you think about them as I will be sending another one out. Also please pass the word around about your class as some people might not realize we are open again.

Talk to you all later - going to go and take a bit of a rest. S


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Here is the direct link to the Workshop Happenings which will give you information about the new classes.

*http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-310502-1.html*


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Have friends that like and admire her?


I think you got it, by George!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> You raised my eyebrow.


A raised eyebrow from The Dame says so much more than a fainting spell from the far right.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Is it time to stop? Has all the important stuff been said?


Andre Gide probably said a lot of important stuff. So has Maid. This was a good chance to quote her.

I had to keep the other quote. What is so eloquent as "Susan take you papa go back home"?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> You post is over the top and very judgmental. You preach to people . It is a fact that you have read lots of links that agree with your ideas. Have you bothered to read the topics that disagree? I believe completely you have the right to your ideas but when someone disagrees you react with near insults- You don't know these woman and actually you don't know where Our beliefs originated so please don't be so
> sure we are wrong and you are right. It is much like what happens to people on the other thread. They don't want to accept anyone elses opinion. Theirs is the only right one.
> 
> None of us are fools and it is difficult when sometimes you come across as expressing that you think we are fools if you don't mean to give that impression, maybe you could be a bit more forgiving of those of us (actually I believe most of us) don't agree with you.
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Is it time to stop? Has all the important stuff been said?


You just reminded me: The Secret Lives of Sheep is coming to an end. I'm desolate. Last Friday's was a masterpiece.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Actually intelligence has little to do with these disagreements. It it was about intelligence all that is required is to do some more reading and study. Perhaps read what articles I send, or perhaps ask some serious questions about sources. But your disagreement is not about intelligence; it is about emotions. You are not comfortable with information that contradicts what you believe in. A belief system is never about intelligence. It is all about faith based learning, emotional training.
> 
> So your criticism of the information I present is more about your cognitive dissonance than it is about fact. I challenge you to question your own comfort zones. Ask yourself what it would mean to you if I am right in the things I say. Do you have the courage to really step outside the box.


Or else perhaps that information you share with us is also propaganda, only not recognized as such because it comes from a less-powerful source than the government.

There are plenty of smaller groups that are able to tell the Big Lie.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:



> Or else perhaps that information you share with us is also propaganda, only not recognized as such because it comes from a less-powerful source than the government.
> 
> There are plenty of smaller groups that are able to tell the Big Lie.


And not just groups - plenty of individuals out there with an agenda (not to mention profit motive).


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> The cop didn't hold his tongue. Couldn't help throwing out a barb. And because I didn't respond, I've kept the peace. It's not my job to keep the peace, it's the coppers job. He didn't do his job. THAT's why there are too many unwarranted confrontations. THAT's where the thumbdown applies.


He most likely threw out the barb from the tone in your response. He also kept the peace. It takes both sides to keep it, but only one side to break it.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> So that makes you using it okay? Oh lordy be!


The attacks on the avatar say a lot about the people attacking it. Joey's use of that cat is no different than your use of a stuffed wombat as your avatar, SQM's sloth or my dog shoes. They are pictures, yet you and your friends find a way to attack the person using them in a backhanded way.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> You need to use a ruler.
> 
> What I was replying to is that after all those horrible posts from people she calls friends (and she chimed in too) coming over to D&P to wish those on that thread a Merry Christmas was disrespectful to the ladies that were so deeply wounded by the AOLW's intentional vicious attack on that thread without any remorse.
> 
> So if she (or any of you) felt remorse for that it has never been stated. It was a planned and relentless assault on a group of women that had no idea why, and that deeply hurt them to their religious and core moral beliefs. So any wishing of Christmas cheer was just adding insult to a deep injury and cruel.


Those poor deeply hurt people - I am sorry for them. I know they will never get over it. You insult our intelligence when you say that Christmas Greetings to other Christians around Christmas was an insult. I wished those who I like and even those I don't like and even those I don't know, a Merry Christmas. You are really a drama queen. It is a shame you don't put as much kindness towards others as you do to those Poor group of women who "were deeply hurt." YOU think nothing of coming here and hurting us with your lies and your vicious statements. What about the hurt you try to cause us , and the lies you tell.

Thats enough from me right now. Not worth even answering you but it relieved my feelings quite a bit. I know nothing will ever change your love of attacking.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Once again you insert yourself where it has nothing to do with you. I visited the thread for at least 3 minutes -- I have been attacked about the workshop on two or three different occasions - I just made Tamarque a manager and was wondering if the same thing was going to happen to her. I saw the post that one of your members said SHE HAD READ and it was so interesting and so unbelievable I quoted the quote, i but did not include the poster. Who by the way came here and called me a liar once again, and even though I copied her words, she still twisted them. She admitted it was her. I don't intend to speak her name - you all know who she was. So why don't you quit inserting your self and making accusations you know are incorrect.


Do tell what is incorrect. It has everything to do with me and the rest of the D&P crowd. You were lurking on D&P and looking for something nasty to bring back here in order start something? Just like running back to mommy because your Christmas greeting was snubbed and that was a chance for you to tell what horrible people the D&P crowd are? The reason it was snubbed is because we are under no illusions of who you are, therefore took your Christmas wishes in the spirit they were intended. You are the one that made a big deal of it. You have also said many times that you no longer read D&P, which is another lie - proven by your copying posts across the threads. Yes Shirley, your words say one thing and your actions another. That is a CORRECT statement.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Do tell what is incorrect. It has everything to do with me and the rest of the D&P crowd. You were lurking on D&P and looking for something nasty to bring back here in order start something? Just like running back to mommy because your Christmas greeting was snubbed and that was a chance for you to tell what horrible people the D&P crowd are? The reason it was snubbed is because we are under no illusions of who you are, therefore took your Christmas wishes in the spirit they were intended. You are the one that made a big deal of it. You have also said many times that you no longer read D&P, which is another lie - proven by your copying posts across the threads. Yes Shirley, your words say one thing and your actions another. That is a CORRECT statement.


no it is not a lie -- It was the first time I lurked since I was attacked for wishing your group a Merry Christmas. I explained why and how long I was there. I saw the post which was from the person posting (it was read by the person posting). I haven't visited your wonderful group of 'hurt women, since I was welcomed with such Christmas spirit by LTL and the group. I wasn't looking for anything but I thought the 'quote' was unbelievable, and yes I shared it without saying who posted or even giving my opinion. I said I was sure this group would find it unbelievable like I did.

So rant all you want.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> no it is not a lie -- It was the first time I lurked since I was attacked for wishing your group a Merry Christmas. I explained why and how long I was there. I saw the post which was from the person posting (it was read by the person posting). I haven't visited your wonderful group of 'hurt women, since I was welcomed with such Christmas spirit by LTL and the group.


Hi Shirley
Hope you are feeling better!
Here we all know and love you. Forget about trying to talk to them or explain things. It's not worth it! Relax and get healthy.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> This is hilarious. What a great description: in a tourniquet, scratching an itch. Here's what that cat should be doing.


 :XD: Yes, exactly!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I do believe the Wombat got into the catnip.


If catnip makes Wombat's hyper irritable then yes, catnip it was.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Designer put it better. I'm throwing in the towel. (BTW, I really was wearing undies while typing. Just wanted to shock them.)


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Very well said, Maid. Thank you.
> 
> The New Yorker has a piece this week on Mayor DeBlasio that quotes James Baldwin.
> 
> ...


That piece is devastating but sadly, not surprising, (well to me anyway). Once targeted hatred and contempt is established in society, perhaps it's examination should be included in the school curricular. At least that would ensure the potential of an informed choice for the new generations.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Wombatnomore
> let joeysomma hang around, she has no other outlet for her ranting. After all we are the ones who are liberal in many respects.


Aarrgghh! Oh the pain of it all!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> He most likely threw out the barb from the tone in your response. He also kept the peace. It takes both sides to keep it, but only one side to break it.


And one side is getting paid to keep the peace. Tone of my response? So, taking direction from a cop and thanking him/her sets a 'tone' which invites an unnecessary comment in a 'tone' meant to aggravate me by a serving police officer? Right Solow. Whatever you say.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> The attacks on the avatar say a lot about the people attacking it. Joey's use of that cat is no different than your use of a stuffed wombat as your avatar, SQM's sloth or my dog shoes. They are pictures, yet you and your friends find a way to attack the person using them in a backhanded way.


I think the choice of an avatar says more about the person than the people attacking it.

The wombat in my avatar is a non-living knitted toy for crying out loud! Hardly a comparative to a live cat poured into a knitted garment and considered to be 'cute.' Okay Solow, whatever you say.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> Do tell what is incorrect. It has everything to do with me and the rest of the D&P crowd. You were lurking on D&P and looking for something nasty to bring back here in order start something? Just like running back to mommy because your Christmas greeting was snubbed and that was a chance for you to tell what horrible people the D&P crowd are? The reason it was snubbed is because we are under no illusions of who you are, therefore took your Christmas wishes in the spirit they were intended. You are the one that made a big deal of it. You have also said many times that you no longer read D&P, which is another lie - proven by your copying posts across the threads. Yes Shirley, your words say one thing and your actions another. That is a CORRECT statement.


soloweygril
lonely? Holy cow you are messed up. Are you in a rubber room and the only connection to the outside world is this forum? Your need to hang on to irrelevant stuff is astounding. Hope this year will bring you some relief. Oh I get it, you are missing Faux Entertainment and you create your own. Fine, but leave us out of it, we have no room for your SOS, share it on D&P.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> It is OK, their comments only show the intelligence of the accuser.


It not even your cat.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> That piece is devastating but sadly, not surprising, (well to me anyway). Once targeted hatred and contempt is established in society, perhaps it's examination should be included in the school curricular. At least that would ensure the potential of an informed choice for the new generations.


The teachers who could do that would be very rare. Certainly in the US, but I'm guessing in Oz as well.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> And one side is getting paid to keep the peace. Tone of my response? So, taking direction from a cop and thanking him/her sets a 'tone' which invites an unnecessary comment in a 'tone' meant to aggravate me by a serving police officer? Right Solow. Whatever you say.


She's never been good at understanding human speech. Maybe it's those dog shoes (which I must admit are very cute).


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Those poor deeply hurt people - I am sorry for them. I know they will never get over it. You insult our intelligence when you say that Christmas Greetings to other Christians around Christmas was an insult. I wished those who I like and even those I don't like and even those I don't know, a Merry Christmas. You are really a drama queen. It is a shame you don't put as much kindness towards others as you do to those Poor group of women who "were deeply hurt." YOU think nothing of coming here and hurting us with your lies and your vicious statements. What about the hurt you try to cause us , and the lies you tell.
> 
> Thats enough from me right now. Not worth even answering you but it relieved my feelings quite a bit. I know nothing will ever change your love of attacking.


I do not lie. I am truthful, but not vicious. What you interpret as vicious is the relentless pursuit of the truth. If you don't agree with it, well then you consider it vicious. I don't swear (unless I drop something on my toe and I think no one is around to hear it). I can't remember the last time I lost my temper; I don't because it is a waste of time and energy. I don't do drama, life is too short to worry about the small stuff, like misused apostrophes. Again when I point out the hurt you and your friends have caused, in your mind that is drama. I contend that what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of your thought processes. If I disagree with you, I am considered vicious, where as if you and your group disagree with me it is okay to purposefully, relentlessly, cruelly hurt people that are not even a part of that conversation. I very rarely post pictures, and never any images that would be considered offensive to you or your friends.

In my opinion, you and your friends' interpretation of 'we can agree to disagree' is really a copout, because none of you believe it or live by that.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> I do not lie. I am truthful, but not vicious. What you interpret as vicious is the relentless pursuit of the truth. If you don't agree with it, well then you consider it vicious. I don't swear (unless I drop something on my toe and I think no one is around to hear it). I can't remember the last time I lost my temper; I don't because it is a waste of time and energy. I don't do drama, life is too short to worry about the small stuff, like misused apostrophes. Again when I point out the hurt you and your friends have caused, in your mind that is drama. I contend that what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of your thought processes. If I disagree with you, I am considered vicious, where as if you and your group disagree with me it is okay to purposefully, relentlessly, cruelly hurt people that are not even a part of that conversation. I very rarely post pictures, and never any images that would be considered offensive to you or your friends.
> 
> In my opinion, you and your friends' interpretation of 'we can agree to disagree' is really a copout, because none of you believe it or live by that.


No you don't lose your temper your unkindness and nastiness is part of your character. You attack and accuse and twist about things that don't happen. That is cold, hard decision. You feel you have every right to twist things and you enjoy doing it. You also put us in one box as people who dare not to agree with you and therefore nothing you can do is too nasty because you are perfect and judgmental and unkind. You automatically take everything, truth or not and attack. one more thing -- the relentless pursuit of the truth is so far from what you are doing that it is actually funny.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> I do not lie. I am truthful, but not vicious. What you interpret as vicious is the relentless pursuit of the truth. If you don't agree with it, well then you consider it vicious. I don't swear (unless I drop something on my toe and I think no one is around to hear it). I can't remember the last time I lost my temper; I don't because it is a waste of time and energy. I don't do drama, life is too short to worry about the small stuff, like misused apostrophes. Again when I point out the hurt you and your friends have caused, in your mind that is drama. I contend that what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of your thought processes. If I disagree with you, I am considered vicious, where as if you and your group disagree with me it is okay to purposefully, relentlessly, cruelly hurt people that are not even a part of that conversation. I very rarely post pictures, and never any images that would be considered offensive to you or your friends.
> 
> In my opinion, you and your friends' interpretation of 'we can agree to disagree' is really a copout, because none of you believe it or live by that.




Do you really believe all those things you say about yourself? Of course you lie, including the first sentence of this message. And you certainly come off as vicious. It's actually a pity that you have no realistic picture of yourself.

At least you haven't said you never get angry. That makes you a little bit truthful (and a wee bit normal).


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You just reminded me: The Secret Lives of Sheep is coming to an end. I'm desolate. Last Friday's was a masterpiece.


I know I read that also and I am so sad. I am going to miss those sheep. :roll:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> If catnip makes Wombat's hyper irritable then yes, catnip it was.


And heres me thinking it was the weather you are having there in the big smoke. How are the fires there today? Shades of 1983 all over again. Take care and stay out of that sun.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

The Iraqis say that American planes are airdropping weapons to isis. ???
http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/american-aircraft-airdropped-weapons-to-isis-says-mp/


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> The teachers who could do that would be very rare. Certainly in the US, but I'm guessing in Oz as well.


That is sadly most probable but would it require much more than an objective presentation of the facts of both sides? It's ongoing history (repeating itself) and I think it would be a good thing to give it topical status in schools everywhere. I guess when all is said and done, the bones of it is racism after all. And whether we like it or not our kids need to be equipped to deal with it.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> She's never been good at understanding human speech. Maybe it's those dog shoes (which I must admit are very cute).


Dog shoes being cute doth not make the maiden thus!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> And heres me thinking it was the weather you are having there in the big smoke. How are the fires there today? Shades of 1983 all over again. Take care and stay out of that sun.


Poor old South Australia have it far worse than Victoria. 28 homes feared lost at last count and climbing. The firies think they may have the upper hand today despite the searing heat. Let's hope that's the case.

I'm out of the sun in my very warm house with the fan on at full blast. Not too bad at all.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The Iraqis say that American planes are airdropping weapons to isis. ???
> http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/american-aircraft-airdropped-weapons-to-isis-says-mp/


Wars always make for strange bedfellows and it may be true but I sincerely doubt it. If the Iraqi parliament get this type of intelligence they are duty bound to investigate and report it but they should carry out an investigation first.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> It not even your cat.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: Makes it even more palatable eh?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

'Well put' seems like not enough to say. This is a respectful, frank attempt at reason. Thanks for the inspiration.



DGreen said:


> Tamarque, you and I agree on a huge range of issues. I spent quite a bit of time going back through your postings and our political outlooks are quite similar when it comes to the importance of equality, decent public education and the need to resist privatization, the outrage of private prisons, the need for people to take personal responsibility for their health and so many other issues. I even agree that conspiracies are everywhere if one defines "conspiracy" as a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful. I would add the idea that a conspiracy can also be a group's plan (not necessarily secret) to advance ones' own political or economic interest. Old as time.
> 
> Your posts are laced with comments about a wide range of conspiracies. You see them everywhere, and while you may be strictly correct, your penchant for hammering on that issue is sometimes tedious. You have made many statements about conspiracies to repress research on GMO's, that the allopathic medical community likes to sterilize women because of the profit and to keep them on a lifetime of drugs (presumably as a conspiracy with pharma), that mainstream medicine strives to keep people sick and conspires with mainstream media to do so. You say policing has always been a means to control "the masses" for the benefit of the elite. That there is a conspiracy to make Americans dependent on manufactured food. Always, there is the underlying suggestion that all of these things are designed to manipulate the people into being submissive, numb to change, ignorant and confused. Additionally, your general tone does not always acknowledge that these are your beliefs; you state them as facts and strongly imply that anyone who does not agree or who does not read and believe what you read is ill-informed and blind to reality. For example, I personally think Mercola is a quack, engages in junk science and has a little too much profit motive. So what? If his advice works for you and if you feel he has helped you, I have no problem with that. Do what works for you and I can ignore him. Simple. Think GMOs are poison? Avoid them and it doesn't affect me in the least. But please don't tell me that I'm ignorant and close-minded when I choose to do what is right for me - based on my own experience, understanding and beliefs. I'm not stupid and I'm not ignorant and I'm not close-minded. I most certainly do not need to patronized by you. I'm not a fool. I know that capitalism will always try to convince me to part with my money and they'll lie to do it. I know from experience that capitalism will always try to extract the most work for the least money and that they hate unions. Hell, I was fired from a job for union organizing not that long ago. And yes, I can identify and recognize these thing for what they are.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Doing the Happy Dance in the street.



Huckleberry said:


> knitpresentgifts
> your decline is gaining speed.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

12 people shot dead at French magazine Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris:

http://www.9news.com.au/World/2015/01/07/22/36/Ten-people-shot-dead-after-gunman-storm-French-magazine-office

The attack is said to be in retaliation to the magazines portrayal of the prophet Mohammad. The gunmen have left the scene and are still at large.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> 12 people shot dead at French magazine Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/World/2015/01/07/22/36/Ten-people-shot-dead-after-gunman-storm-French-magazine-office
> 
> The attack is said to be in retaliation to the magazines portrayal of the prophet Mohammad. The gunmen have left the scene and are still at large.


Stop the world, I want to get off.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The Iraqis say that American planes are airdropping weapons to isis. ???
> http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/american-aircraft-airdropped-weapons-to-isis-says-mp/


They say a lot of things.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Poor old South Australia have it far worse than Victoria. 28 homes feared lost at last count and climbing. The firies think they may have the upper hand today despite the searing heat. Let's hope that's the case.
> 
> I'm out of the sun in my very warm house with the fan on at full blast. Not too bad at all.


I hope they have gained the upper hand on the fires, too. Such a tragedy for those who lost their homes.

Stay cool.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Stop the world, I want to get off.


Me too. It's getting to be a weekly scenario around the world Green.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Me too. It's getting to be a weekly scenario around the world Green.


No one seems to have any clue how to deal with the crazies.

Had a meeting yesterday with some of the democratic club officers who make up the steering committee for our group. We could not stay on topic and kept wandering off on the challenges and troubles we see in the news every day. There are so many.

It was a long meeting by the time we worked through the agenda!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> No one seems to have any clue how to deal with the crazies.
> 
> Had a meeting yesterday with some of the democratic club officers who make up the steering committee for our group. We could not stay on topic and kept wandering off on the challenges and troubles we see in the news every day. There are so many.
> 
> It was a long meeting by the time we worked through the agenda!


It is important to talk about it. As horrible as these events are we need to find some perspective (as difficult as that may be).

What can be done? That question is a real conundrum. I take the view that what we're witnessing is a new type of warfare which will probably continue to evolve. There are no rules of engagement anymore so all bets are off.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I received private thanks from people who don't agree with you. Yarnie had the courage to return my Christmas greetings. Think what you wish. You are not a kind, or nice person. YOu twist things and you lie, you jump when there is no reason to jump you insult whether your reasons are true or not. Our biggest criminal intent is that we don't hate The President. You are blinded by you hatred and in no way will you ever change. Just leave me alone. I had no intention of going to D and P until CB asked me three times to go and defend Bonnie-- Bonnie is myfriend so I did. CBchanged her tune and implied that she told me to go there to see how the libs were treating my friend. I have the copies of all the messages received from all the DP 'friends'. I did go because I was under the impression that I was asked to try to stop an attack on Bonnie - I went and did say that Bonnie was myfriend, and then I left. So lie as much as you want to. I know that none of your cronies will ever admit what really happened. They know I am not the evil person you and KPG accuse me of being but then you all have to stick together and never admit your are ever wrong. You would have so much more respect if you just once in your life faced and admitted the possibility that you are unfair and wrong. Leave me alone.


I never said you were evil, so please stop lying (again). I am too young to be a crony. In fact I had no idea what that meant and had to look it up.

ttfn


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> It is important to talk about it. As horrible as these events are we need to find some perspective (as difficult as that may be).
> 
> What can be done? That question is a real conundrum. I take the view that what we're witnessing is a new type of warfare which will probably continue to evolve. There are no rules of engagement anymore so all bets are off.


Conundrum. Exactly the correct word.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm just so sad.



Wombatnomore said:


> 12 people shot dead at French magazine Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/World/2015/01/07/22/36/Ten-people-shot-dead-after-gunman-storm-French-magazine-office
> 
> The attack is said to be in retaliation to the magazines portrayal of the prophet Mohammad. The gunmen have left the scene and are still at large.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

To our Friends in France. 
I am so sorry for the loss of Lives in Paris. May the perpetrators be apprehended and brought to justice quickly. 
Huck


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> 12 people shot dead at French magazine Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/World/2015/01/07/22/36/Ten-people-shot-dead-after-gunman-storm-French-magazine-office
> 
> The attack is said to be in retaliation to the magazines portrayal of the prophet Mohammad. The gunmen have left the scene and are still at large.


I'm sorry, but my first response to this was There's a French magazine called Charlie Hebdo???


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> I never said you were evil, so please stop lying (again). I am too young to be a crony. In fact I had no idea what that meant and had to look it up.
> 
> ttfn


You don't have to _say_ someone is evil when you imply it so clearly.

And nobody's too young to be a crony. You may have looked up "crone." You're possibly too young for that, but have no fear, it's in your future.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> 12 people shot dead at French magazine Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/World/2015/01/07/22/36/Ten-people-shot-dead-after-gunman-storm-French-magazine-office
> 
> The attack is said to be in retaliation to the magazines portrayal of the prophet Mohammad. The gunmen have left the scene and are still at large.


Being serious now:

This is something I just can't understand. Do Muslims - or at least the ones with Kalashnikovs - believe their God is so weak that he can't tolerate joking? Who would want to believe in a God like that?

I guess I know who: when someone posted a few "Republican Jesus" items on D&P, the girls there had the fantods. The historical Jesus most probably had a sense of humor; the one they worship certainly doesn't.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Being serious now:
> 
> This is something I just can't understand. Do Muslims - or at least the ones with Kalashnikovs - believe their God is so weak that he can't tolerate joking? Who would want to believe in a God like that?
> 
> I guess I know who: when someone posted a few "Republican Jesus" items on D&P, the girls there had the fantods. The historical Jesus most probably had a sense of humor; the one they worship certainly doesn't.


Poor Purl
all sorts of powers are to be those of Jesus for example, why do folks not leave it to him to take care of matters? Why do some little peepsqueak earthlings feel they have to protect him, stand up for him? Obviously they feel that he is too weak to fend for himself. He is being called on to solve all sorts of even mundane things, but needs Man's help to protect him? Weird.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Being serious now:
> 
> This is something I just can't understand. Do Muslims - or at least the ones with Kalashnikovs - believe their God is so weak that he can't tolerate joking? Who would want to believe in a God like that?
> 
> I guess I know who: when someone posted a few "Republican Jesus" items on D&P, the girls there had the fantods. The historical Jesus most probably had a sense of humor; the one they worship certainly doesn't.


The response to this morning's news on D&P Is appalling. Her vituperative harangue sounds as though it comes from an unbalanced person. JMHO


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> The response to this morning's news on D&P Is appalling. Her vituperative harangue sounds as though it comes from an unbalanced person. JMHO


No kidding. A very clear instance of painting everyone, be it muslims, democrats, blacks, etc., with one brush - and the worst possible one, at that. No shades of gray there.

Progressives want anarchy? First they accuse progressives of wanting TOO MUCH government and now she thinks we want no government. Whatever suits the moment, I guess.

(Resisted the urge to post there). Meh.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> No kidding. A very clear instance of painting everyone, be it muslims, democrats, blacks, etc., with one brush - and the worst possible one, at that. No shades of gray there.
> 
> Progressives want anarchy? First they accuse progressives of wanting TOO MUCH government and now she thinks we want no government. Whatever suits the moment, I guess.
> 
> (Resisted the urge to post there). Meh.


DGreen
I have resisted for a long time but this time I needed to chime in. Sometime when one has a snot nose, someone-else needs to hand them an hanky.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> The response to this morning's news on D&P Is appalling. Her vituperative harangue sounds as though it comes from an unbalanced person. JMHO


I'm just guessing, but are her initials KC? If so, then the harangue is indeed coming from someone unbalanced. But I will grit my teeth and check it out. (With gritted teeth, I'm safe from cream cheese.)


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> The response to this morning's news on D&P Is appalling. Her vituperative harangue sounds as though it comes from an unbalanced person. JMHO


cookiequeen
as I said, every society has its nuts.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> I have resisted for a long time but this time I needed to chime in. Sometime when one has a snot nose, someone-else needs to hand them an hanky.


Be sure to hold your own nose as you do so.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> And one side is getting paid to keep the peace. Tone of my response? So, taking direction from a cop and thanking him/her sets a 'tone' which invites an unnecessary comment in a 'tone' meant to aggravate me by a serving police officer? Right Solow. Whatever you say.


The police were trying to keep drunks off the roads so no one would get hurt or perhaps killed - and that included you. From the way you wrote your story I do say you had a tone in your voice. You have admitted that you don't like the police. and that came out loud and clear. Oh poor wombat, she received a sarcastic reply and had to make more out of it than was necessary.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I think the choice of an avatar says more about the person than the people attacking it.
> 
> The wombat in my avatar is a non-living knitted toy for crying out loud! Hardly a comparative to a live cat poured into a knitted garment and considered to be 'cute.' Okay Solow, whatever you say.


Whatever.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> Poor Purl
> all sorts of powers are to be those of Jesus for example, why do folks not leave it to him to take care of matters? Why do some little peepsqueak earthlings feel they have to protect him, stand up for him? Obviously they feel that he is too weak to fend for himself. He is being called on to solve all sorts of even mundane things, but needs Man's help to protect him? Weird.


They're not defending Jesus. They are defending themselves = their beliefs. They have a lot invested in being right about that subject.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The Iraqis say that American planes are airdropping weapons to isis. ???
> http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/american-aircraft-airdropped-weapons-to-isis-says-mp/


There was a news story around the end of summer about the US dropping weapons to the rebel forces fighting ISIS. The scheduled drop zone was being overtaken by ISIS and all but one crate made it into the rebel's possession. Along with air attacks, the US has been providing weapons to those Iraqis willing to fight ISIS. It sounds like a bunch of propaganda.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Folks, conspiracy is the daily bread of some. The imagination these folks have is fabulous for where they reside, in the twilight zone. 
Hope that upon their death their grey matter will be thoroughly examined. They sure are different from the majority. Things are just not right with them. Funny but not right.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> They're not defending Jesus. They are defending themselves = their beliefs. They have a lot invested in being right about that subject.


DGreen
you are right. They are writing their own scripture for sure. Translation Nr. 300+. New editions keep the "business" going.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> Folks, conspiracy is the daily bread of some. The imagination these folks have is fabulous for where they reside, in the twilight zone.
> Hope that upon their death their grey matter will be thoroughly examined. They sure are different from the majority. Things are just not right with them. Funny but not right.


I have actually done a little research on the characteristics common to conspiracy theorists and was not the least bit surprised to learn that they exist everywhere, they are generally intelligent, educated and normal in most ways. If a conspiracy theorist believes in one theory, the chances are good they will believe in others, or even many, sometimes embracing multiple theories that are logically contradictory.

Another common trait - the perception of *lack of control of their lives.*

Based on the people I know personally who have pet conspiracy theories, this sort of fits.

Oh, and they all seem to be so convinced that no amount of proof to the contrary, no logic, no facts, nothing, will dislodge that belief.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> I have actually done a little research on the characteristics common to conspiracy theorists and was not the least bit surprised to learn that they exist everywhere, they are generally intelligent, educated and normal in most ways. If a conspiracy theorist believes in one theory, the chances are good they will believe in others, or even many, sometimes embracing multiple theories that are logically contradictory.
> 
> Another common trait - the perception of *lack of control of their lives.*
> 
> ...


I believe in UFOs and feel I have no control over my life so your description seems true. What is a pet conspiracy theory? Is it like all the cats globally will stop using their litter boxes and do it on chenille bedspreads?


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I have actually done a little research on the characteristics common to conspiracy theorists and was not the least bit surprised to learn that they exist everywhere, they are generally intelligent, educated and normal in most ways. If a conspiracy theorist believes in one theory, the chances are good they will believe in others, or even many, sometimes embracing multiple theories that are logically contradictory.
> 
> Another common trait - the perception of *lack of control of their lives.*
> 
> ...


Spot on! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

SQM said:


> I believe in UFOs and feel I have no control over my life so your description seems true. What is a pet conspiracy theory? Is it like all the cats globally will stop using their litter boxes and do it on chenille bedspreads?


Thanks, I really needed a good laugh and so did my cats! :lol:


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Thanks, I really needed a good laugh and so did my cats! :lol:


Hi Cheeks.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm sorry, but my first response to this was There's a French magazine called Charlie Hebdo???


 :XD: :XD: :XD: I was befuddled by the name at first glance but then that's not unusual for me.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You don't have to _say_ someone is evil when you imply it so clearly.
> 
> And nobody's too young to be a crony. You may have looked up "crone." You're possibly too young for that, but have no fear, it's in your future.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Being serious now:
> 
> This is something I just can't understand. Do Muslims - or at least the ones with Kalashnikovs - believe their God is so weak that he can't tolerate joking? Who would want to believe in a God like that?
> 
> I guess I know who: when someone posted a few "Republican Jesus" items on D&P, the girls there had the fantods. The historical Jesus most probably had a sense of humor; the one they worship certainly doesn't.


Sadly a reflection of the meaning of Sharia Law - he who laughs gets killed. (My words).


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> I have resisted for a long time but this time I needed to chime in. Sometime when one has a snot nose, someone-else needs to hand them an hanky.


You're too generous Huck.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm just guessing, but are her initials KC? If so, then the harangue is indeed coming from someone unbalanced. But I will grit my teeth and check it out. (With gritted teeth, I'm safe from cream cheese.)


KC and The Sunshine Band - NOT!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> The police were trying to keep drunks off the roads so no one would get hurt or perhaps killed - and that included you. From the way you wrote your story I do say you had a tone in your voice. You have admitted that you don't like the police. and that came out loud and clear. Oh poor wombat, she received a sarcastic reply and had to make more out of it than was necessary.


Oh poor Solow having to defend an occupational group who would have her in handcuffs if she even so much as looked sideways at a cop. You are so naïve.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I believe in UFOs and feel I have no control over my life so your description seems true. What is a pet conspiracy theory? Is it like all the cats globally will stop using their litter boxes and do it on chenille bedspreads?


Not so funny. My cat threw up on my son's jacket in the middle of the night, and he ended up doing laundry at 6am (son, not cat). It's a conspiracy between cats and the detergent companies.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Sadly a reflection of the meaning of Sharia Law - he who laughs gets killed. (My words).


For once, Buzzfeed has something worth looking at :

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/heartbreaking-cartoons-from-artists-in-response-to-the-ch?s=mobile


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Reasonable?!? How so???


 :shock: :shock:


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> :shock: :shock:


It is unbelievable--- I am not interested in playing nice with someone who spends her life attacking me and myfriends with no reason. I have never seen a nice post from her and I don't intend to give her any slack until she quits lying, and quits twisting our words and meanings to suit her purposes.

I have had personal conversations with her and I don't think she will ever apologize to anyone.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> For once, Buzzfeed has something worth looking at :
> 
> http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/heartbreaking-cartoons-from-artists-in-response-to-the-ch?s=mobile


I am sitting here in tears watching the news--the same scene over and over of those killers jogging back to their car after having killed innocent people. The policeman who was shot at close range was a French Muslim. 
Thanks for the Buzzfeed cartoons.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Buzzfeed cartoons were magnific.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> I am sitting here in tears watching the news--the same scene over and over of those killers jogging back to their car after having killed innocent people. The policeman who was shot at close range was a French Muslim.
> Thanks for the Buzzfeed cartoons.


This is what religiosity without thought can lead to. The killers will never understand what they've done.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Oh poor Solow having to defend an occupational group who would have her in handcuffs if she even so much as looked sideways at a cop. You are so naïve.


But isn't it wonderful that she could hear everything that was said from 8,000 miles away?


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> I believe in UFOs and feel I have no control over my life so your description seems true. What is a pet conspiracy theory? Is it like all the cats globally will stop using their litter boxes and do it on chenille bedspreads?


No, no, no, wrong place........they will leave their deposits right in the middle of our yarn stashes, especially if we are hoarders of expensive yarns of light colours.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Not so funny. My cat threw up on my son's jacket in the middle of the night, and he ended up doing laundry at 6am (son, not cat). It's a conspiracy between cats and the detergent companies.


Or maybe just the cats. My male cat knows just where to leave his fur balls. Yes, on the mat beside my bed so I step onto it when I get out of bed, or in the computer room doorway, just where I will not see it. I could send a long list of places, all dark and lurking, waiting for the unsuspecting foot, and as we do not wear shoes inside the house, who knows where?????????


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Or maybe just the cats. My male cat knows just where to leave his fur balls. Yes, on the mat beside my bed so I step onto it when I get out of bed, or in the computer room doorway, just where I will not see it. I could send a long list of places, all dark and lurking, waiting for the unsuspecting foot, and as we do not wear shoes inside the house, who knows where?????????


Even if you did wear shoes in the house, even if you slept in shoes, your cat will know where to leave fur balls where they'll cause maximum - not damage, exactly; "disgust" is probably the word I want.

You may enjoy reading this: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/apr/29/pounce/


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Even if you did wear shoes in the house, even if you slept in shoes, your cat will know where to leave fur balls where they'll cause maximum - not damage, exactly; "disgust" is probably the word I want.
> 
> You may enjoy reading this: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/apr/29/pounce/


Thanks for that link, I loved reading that article. My mother never liked cats but she would always say "I could never hurt a cat nor be mean to one. If a cat was hungry I would have to feed it." My two older sisters do not like cats either. Me, I just lured every cat in the district home. "Mum, it just followed me home, honest, can I keep it, please?" with the big, begging eyes. Never mind the fact that I had kidnapped the poor moggie from the next street and carried it almost to the back door. But no, I had to remain catless until after I was married. One cat did adopt me in 1953, but I think she had someone take it down to the flour mill, that is what people did with unwanted cats back in the 1950s. I also had another cat adopt me in 1958 and I would sneak it into my bedroom at night. Mum would call out "I know you have that cat in there, I am coming into your bedroom right now". Never mind opening the bedroom window to let a lover escape, with me it was opening the bedroom window to let the cat out. That one also disappeared and I am sure mum bribed my then boyfriend to take that one down to the flour mill also. I love my cats.

Thanks again for the link, I enjoyed reading it.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I believe in UFOs and feel I have no control over my life so your description seems true. What is a pet conspiracy theory? Is it like all the cats globally will stop using their litter boxes and do it on chenille bedspreads?


Ha! Funny indeed. My last cat only pooped in the kitty litter. For her water works she'd elegantly position herself over the plug hole in the bath. She was such a hussy!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> For once, Buzzfeed has something worth looking at :
> 
> http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/heartbreaking-cartoons-from-artists-in-response-to-the-ch?s=mobile


I only saw three of the cartoons. There was just twitter text for the other entries. Something's wrong with my computer's flash thingy I think.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Thanks for that link, I loved reading that article. My mother never liked cats but she would always say "I could never hurt a cat nor be mean to one. If a cat was hungry I would have to feed it." My two older sisters do not like cats either. Me, I just lured every cat in the district home. "Mum, it just followed me home, honest, can I keep it, please?" with the big, begging eyes. Never mind the fact that I had kidnapped the poor moggie from the next street and carried it almost to the back door. But no, I had to remain catless until after I was married. One cat did adopt me in 1953, but I think she had someone take it down to the flour mill, that is what people did with unwanted cats back in the 1950s. I also had another cat adopt me in 1958 and I would sneak it into my bedroom at night. Mum would call out "I know you have that cat in there, I am coming into your bedroom right now". Never mind opening the bedroom window to let a lover escape, with me it was opening the bedroom window to let the cat out. That one also disappeared and I am sure mum bribed my then boyfriend to take that one down to the flour mill also. I love my cats.
> 
> Thanks again for the link, I enjoyed reading it.


What do you do with a cat in a flour mill? Feed it into the stone grinder? :shock:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> What do you do with a cat in a flour mill? Feed it into the stone grinder? :shock:


Flour mill, lots of mice running around eating the spilled grain, cats catching the mice. Or at least that was the theory then. Thank goodness we are now more enlightened.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Flour mill, lots of mice running around eating the spilled grain, cats catching the mice. Or at least that was the theory then. Thank goodness we are now more enlightened.


What do we do with flour-mill mice now that's more enlightened?


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> What do you do with a cat in a flour mill? Feed it into the stone grinder? :shock:


Wombatnomore
take care of the Mice.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Thanks for that link, I loved reading that article. My mother never liked cats but she would always say "I could never hurt a cat nor be mean to one. If a cat was hungry I would have to feed it." My two older sisters do not like cats either. Me, I just lured every cat in the district home. "Mum, it just followed me home, honest, can I keep it, please?" with the big, begging eyes. Never mind the fact that I had kidnapped the poor moggie from the next street and carried it almost to the back door. But no, I had to remain catless until after I was married. One cat did adopt me in 1953, but I think she had someone take it down to the flour mill, that is what people did with unwanted cats back in the 1950s. I also had another cat adopt me in 1958 and I would sneak it into my bedroom at night. Mum would call out "I know you have that cat in there, I am coming into your bedroom right now". Never mind opening the bedroom window to let a lover escape, with me it was opening the bedroom window to let the cat out. That one also disappeared and I am sure mum bribed my then boyfriend to take that one down to the flour mill also. I love my cats.
> 
> Thanks again for the link, I enjoyed reading it.


My father disliked cats, until we left our first one with my parents while we went on vacation. For a few days the cat hid somewhere while they were awake and came out at night. Then one day he jumped onto my father's lap and got affectionate with him (this cat was a real lover). The first few times, Dad stood up in alarm. Then he relaxed. When we went to pick up the cat, Dad didn't want him to go.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> What do we do with flour-mill mice now that's more enlightened?


We teach them to knit of course. Actually my enlightenment quote was more about how we treat our cats today. We no longer dump them at a four mill to fend for themselves by hunting mice. We pamper them, we spoil them. Or at least some of us do. Now if you have any really tiny knitting needles that you no longer need I know a group of poor flour mill mice that would appreciate them. They are busy knitting hats and scarves for the needy church mice, who every knows are really very poor. Nobody wishes to be as 'poor as church mice'. I know this thread is 'things are heating up in the world' but the Vicar forgot to pay the power bill and they turned his electricity off. Now he can no longer heat the church crypts where the poor church mice live, which means for those poor church mice 'things are NOT heating up in the world'.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> We teach them to knit of course. Actually my enlightenment quote was more about how we treat our cats today. We no longer dump them at a four mill to fend for themselves by hunting mice. We pamper them, we spoil them. Or at least some of us do. Now if you have any really tiny knitting needles that you no longer need I know a group of poor flour mill mice that would appreciate them. They are busy knitting hats and scarves for the needy church mice, who every knows are really very poor. Nobody wishes to be as 'poor as church mice'. I know this thread is 'things are heating up in the world' but the Vicar forgot to pay the power bill and they turned his electricity off. Now he can no longer heat the church crypts where the poor church mice live, which means for those poor church mice 'things are NOT heating up in the world'.


I've seen the tiny Moebius scarves they do, with their front paws knitting in one direction and their hind paws in the opposite direction. I have sets of toothpicks they can use, and some spools of thread. Will someone come to collect them?


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I've seen the tiny Moebius scarves they do, with their front paws knitting in one direction and their hind paws in the opposite direction. I have sets of toothpicks they can use, and some spools of thread. Will someone come to collect them?


You can just send the needles and yarn postage free. A wealthy fat cat has agreed to pick up the postage tab. You just have to make sure you use an orange envelope and mark it "free postage to the poor church mice of Needy Village". It really is so kind of you to make such a generous donation and I thank you for your donation. A blessing of a thousand fairy kisses and rainbow hugs coming your way. :lol: :lol:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> You can just send the needles and yarn postage free. A wealthy fat cat has agreed to pick up the postage tab. You just have to make sure you use an orange envelope and mark it "free postage to the poor church mice of Needy Village". It really is so kind of you to make such a generous donation and I thank you for your donation. A blessing of a thousand fairy kisses and rainbow hugs coming your way. :lol: :lol:


I feel so good about this that I want to cry. But the only orange envelopes I can find easily are the ones stuck on car windshields with traffic tickets. If I use those, and the car owners aren't even aware they've been ticketed, they will have $100 added to their original fine.

But I'll leave a note telling them about the good cause it's all going for.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> For once, Buzzfeed has something worth looking at :
> 
> http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/heartbreaking-cartoons-from-artists-in-response-to-the-ch?s=mobile


Humor lives on forever.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The best that can be done in their memory is to keep humor alive at all costs. IMHO



cookiequeen said:


> I am sitting here in tears watching the news--the same scene over and over of those killers jogging back to their car after having killed innocent people. The policeman who was shot at close range was a French Muslim.
> Thanks for the Buzzfeed cartoons.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> Buzzfeed cartoons were magnific.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Humor will not be stilled. Laugh on. People think you're up to something.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> Buzzfeed cartoons were magnific.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Humor will not be stilled. Laugh on. People think you're up to something.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I feel so good about this that I want to cry. But the only orange envelopes I can find easily are the ones stuck on car windshields with traffic tickets. If I use those, and the car owners aren't even aware they've been ticketed, they will have $100 added to their original fine.
> 
> But I'll leave a note telling them about the good cause it's all going for.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> What do we do with flour-mill mice now that's more enlightened?


Take the gluten out of the grain?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Flour mill, lots of mice running around eating the spilled grain, cats catching the mice. Or at least that was the theory then. Thank goodness we are now more enlightened.


Okay. I thought you meant for the cat to be punished but the alternative sounds like cat nirvana!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Wombatnomore
> take care of the Mice.


I'm pretty sure my namesake would Huck!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> We teach them to knit of course. Actually my enlightenment quote was more about how we treat our cats today. We no longer dump them at a four mill to fend for themselves by hunting mice. We pamper them, we spoil them. Or at least some of us do. Now if you have any really tiny knitting needles that you no longer need I know a group of poor flour mill mice that would appreciate them. They are busy knitting hats and scarves for the needy church mice, who every knows are really very poor. Nobody wishes to be as 'poor as church mice'. I know this thread is 'things are heating up in the world' but the Vicar forgot to pay the power bill and they turned his electricity off. Now he can no longer heat the church crypts where the poor church mice live, which means for those poor church mice 'things are NOT heating up in the world'.


 :XD: Very cute.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I've seen the tiny Moebius scarves they do, with their front paws knitting in one direction and their hind paws in the opposite direction. I have sets of toothpicks they can use, and some spools of thread. Will someone come to collect them?


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> You can just send the needles and yarn postage free. A wealthy fat cat has agreed to pick up the postage tab. You just have to make sure you use an orange envelope and mark it "free postage to the poor church mice of Needy Village". It really is so kind of you to make such a generous donation and I thank you for your donation. A blessing of a thousand fairy kisses and rainbow hugs coming your way. :lol: :lol:


 :XD: Keeps getting cuter!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I feel so good about this that I want to cry. But the only orange envelopes I can find easily are the ones stuck on car windshields with traffic tickets. If I use those, and the car owners aren't even aware they've been ticketed, they will have $100 added to their original fine.
> 
> But I'll leave a note telling them about the good cause it's all going for.


 :XD: And the judge no doubt will not increase the fine for the hapless drivers given the kindness of strangers!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Take the gluten out of the grain?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: And the judge no doubt will not increase the fine for the hapless drivers given the kindness of strangers!


No doubt.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Are the mice on gluten-free diet too?



cookiequeen said:


> Take the gluten out of the grain?


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I feel so good about this that I want to cry. But the only orange envelopes I can find easily are the ones stuck on car windshields with traffic tickets. If I use those, and the car owners aren't even aware they've been ticketed, they will have $100 added to their original fine.
> 
> But I'll leave a note telling them about the good cause it's all going for.


 :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I've not been hearing much about what's been going on with Russia and the Ukraine lately. I guess I just assumed that nothing was going on. But apparently, plenty is happening behind the scenes. I've read this article which details some of what's been happening. It seems that our politicians are poking sticks at Russia and trying to start a war with them. We're in the process of trying to make life miserable for the Russian people, to get them to rise up against their government. This saddens me. Why do we allow those who run our government, to try and take over the world? Why can't we live and let live? 
http://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/91007/road-war-russia


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I've not been hearing much about what's been going on with Russia and the Ukraine lately. I guess I just assumed that nothing was going on. But apparently, plenty is happening behind the scenes. I've read this article which details some of what's been happening. It seems that our politicians are poking sticks at Russia and trying to start a war with them. We're in the process of trying to make life miserable for the Russian people, to get them to rise up against their government. This saddens me. Why do we allow those who run our government, to try and take over the world? Why can't we live and let live?
> http://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/91007/road-war-russia


Because the Ukraine is filled with neonazis and they are more aminable to USA style of capitalism than are the Russians. Follow the money.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Dear Australian Friends. Are you still in need of knitted Gloves for the Koalas who have singed Paws? Poor things to be suffering like that.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Dear Australian Friends. Are you still in need of knitted Gloves for the Koalas who have singed Paws? Poor things to be suffering like that.


Yes. Gloves are needed still for the Koalas:

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2015/01/09/paw-mittens-needed-koalas-burnt-bushfires-animal-welfare-group-says


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Yes. Gloves are needed still for the Koalas:
> 
> http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2015/01/09/paw-mittens-needed-koalas-burnt-bushfires-animal-welfare-group-says


Will you sew for them? It is a horrible situation.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Will you sew for them? It is a horrible situation.


Funny you should ask. I have some fabric I was going to use for a quilt but there isn't enough. It's pure cotton so I thought I could whip up a couple of dozen mittens for the wee little things. I love Koalas.

I used to make mittens for newborn human babies back in the day. Made them out of flannelette with little ribbons to tie around the wrists. They were used because newborns have a habit of scratching their faces with their tiny fingernails.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev warned that tensions between Russia and European powers over the Ukraine crisis could result in a major conflict or even nuclear war.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0KI1US20150109?irpc=932

Things are heating up, and no one's talking about it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev warned that tensions between Russia and European powers over the Ukraine crisis could result in a major conflict or even nuclear war.
> http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0KI1US20150109?irpc=932
> 
> Things are heating up, and no one's talking about it.


There are other, hotter spots. In Paris, terrorists took people hostage at a kosher supermarket, on Friday, a day when many Jews shop for the Sabbath. They managed to kill four before the police got them. These were women and children, mostly, and they had done nothing. They were captured and killed because they were Jews.

This news has been downplayed because the Charlie Hebdo incident was both worse and with longer-lasting effects. I've seen several articles by people admitting that they would be afraid to write anything about Islam.

The murdered Jews couldn't even have avoided this, because they did nothing but exist to make them targets.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev warned that tensions between Russia and European powers over the Ukraine crisis could result in a major conflict or even nuclear war.
> http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0KI1US20150109?irpc=932
> 
> Things are heating up, and no one's talking about it.


Did you see what was at the end of the Gorbachev article? *Nebraska court clears pipeline route as showdown looms in Washington* http://mobile.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSKBN0KI1FV20150109?irpc=932


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The Repubs are obviously planning ahead to lose 2016 elections by funding the pipeline. It will blow up on them. IMHO
************************************************
Here's another interesting excerpt from Daily Kos:

If you already thought the GOP had 2016 problems, you ain't seen nothing yet. Here's an excerpt from a "Dear Colleague" letter Rep. Steve King (R-IA) is circulating on the Hill titled "Defund All of President Obama's Executive Amnesty:"

"Any proposed solution must not unnecessarily be narrowed to only defunding the President's recent illegal and unconstitutional actions announced on November 20, 2014. We must also defund the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) policy as announced in 2012 and the Morton Memos which began illegally setting up classes for "individual" prosecutorial discretion in 2011. To leave out DACA and the Morton Memos is to suggest those acts were compliant with the Constitution.

Never forget, DACA in 2012 was the dry run for the illegal and unconstitutional misdeeds President Obama is implementing today"

Never forget, DACA had broad mainstream support and was wildly popular among Latinos.

Nearly two-thirds of U.S. adults (63%) approved of the new immigration program, according to a 2012 Pew Research Center survey. An even greater share of Hispanics (89%) said the same, according to the Pew Research Centers 2012 National Survey of Latinos.

Never forget, Obama's 2012 DACA announcement entirely flipped his numbers with Latino voters in battleground states, with a plurality (41 percent) saying they were "less enthusiastic" about Obama before he announced DACA, and a plurality (49 percent) calling themselves "more enthusiastic" about Obama after he announced the program. That's a net enthusiasm shift of +35 points.

Steve Kingthe guy who famously said that for every undocumented DREAMer "who's a valedictorian, theres another 100 out there who weigh 130 pounds and theyve got calves the size of cantaloupes because theyre hauling 75 pounds of marijuana across the desert"is quickly shaping up to be the nemesis of Speaker John Boehner. It wasn't enough for him to oppose Boehner's leadership, now he's fixing to torpedo any chance the GOP has of showing they can govern in a reasonable way. (By the way, defunding DACA isn't real high on the priority list of things Americans hope the 114th Congress will accomplish.)

The cards were already stacked against Republicans in 2016, but ol' Cantaloupe King is their ace in the hole.

for


Poor Purl said:


> Did you see what was at the end of the Gorbachev article? *Nebraska court clears pipeline route as showdown looms in Washington* http://mobile.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSKBN0KI1FV20150109?irpc=932


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> The Repubs are obviously planning ahead to lose 2016 elections by funding the pipeline. It will blow up on them. IMHO
> ************************************************
> 
> The republicans aren't going to vote on "funding the pipeline". Trans Canada is funding their own pipeline. Congress will be voting on whether Trans Canada will be allowed to run their pipeline over (or under) American soil. There was never any question in my mind whether the pipeline would happen. Nobody stops big money. IMO, the only reason Obama wouldn't allow the pipeline is because, one of his biggest supporters and donor Warren Buffet, is making sh#t tons of money transporting the oil by rail. His company owns the railroad that currently transports the oil to the gulf. Everything is about money. Don't ever forget, solyndra!
> ...


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> There are other, hotter spots. In Paris, terrorists took people hostage at a kosher supermarket, on Friday, a day when many Jews shop for the Sabbath. They managed to kill four before the police got them. These were women and children, mostly, and they had done nothing. They were captured and killed because they were Jews.
> 
> This news has been downplayed because the Charlie Hebdo incident was both worse and with longer-lasting effects. I've seen several articles by people admitting that they would be afraid to write anything about Islam.
> 
> The murdered Jews couldn't even have avoided this, because they did nothing but exist to make them targets.


IMO, the advent of world war III beats out anything else. If we go to war with Russia, it WILL turn into a world war. I also think that the attack on innocents, is far worse than the attack on the newspaper that "defamed" the muslim prophet. At least those people were aware that they ran a risk, publishing their cartoons. As opposed to innocent people shopping for groceries. Those who committed this act and those who endorse it, are the evilest of evil!

I'd like to know why the French government and her people, have allowed the murder of innocents. We've been hearing reports of anti semitic acts for months. Why don't the French people roundly condemn these acts? Why aren't they reminding everyone of what happened in world war II? No one should ever turn a blind eye to this again. If it takes declaring war on radical muslims, then that's what we should do. We all know what happens when we wait too long.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> Will you sew for them? It is a horrible situation.


SW
sew, knit, whatever I can do to help them get well.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev warned that tensions between Russia and European powers over the Ukraine crisis could result in a major conflict or even nuclear war.
> http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0KI1US20150109?irpc=932
> 
> Things are heating up, and no one's talking about it.


More power to the Russians and let them blast the bleep out of those Neonazi Ukraines.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Interesting video called "Who Am I?".


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> More power to the Russians and let them blast the bleep out of those Neonazi Ukraines.


You mean the neonazis that OUR government PUT into power?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You mean the neonazis that OUR government PUT into power?


Isn't that our usual pattern? Nada nuevo.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Interesting video called "Who Am I?".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Interesting video called "Who Am I?".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Is your intent to suggest that Barak Obama is another Hitler, or do you intend to give us an example of right-wing hate-mongering?
> 
> Please state clearly so everyone understands your position.


I did not pick up on that angle. I just read it as a questionnaire.

Just a question, what did Nostradamus have to say about the present problems in the world? So much of what he wrote has come true.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I did not pick up on that angle. I just read it as a questionnaire.
> 
> Just a question, what did Nostradamus have to say about the present problems in the world? So much of what he wrote has come true.


I'm not familiar with the writings of Nostradamus.

The video obviously implies that Obama has horrible plans that will only be revealed - later. Right-wing nut cases have been calling him Hitler for a long time and some are now claiming he plans to stay in office indefinitely as a dictator. These beliefs have been stated on another thread. Too early and I'm having tummy issues or I would look them up.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I'm not familiar with the writings of Nostradamus.
> 
> The video obviously implies that Obama has horrible plans that will only be revealed - later. Right-wing nut cases have been calling him Hitler for a long time and some are now claiming he plans to stay in office indefinitely as a dictator. These beliefs have been stated on another thread. Too early and I'm having tummy issues or I would look them up.


No need to research--just ask Joeysmomma. She's stated many times that she believes Obama will never leave office...and oh yes that the government is running concentration camps and stocking up on guillotines. :roll:


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> No need to research--just ask Joeysmomma. She's stated many times that she believes Obama will never leave office...and oh yes that the government is running concentration camps and stocking up on guillotines. :roll:


susanmos2000
oh yes the stored Guillotines and do not forget the Caskets being on hold underground on the West Coast. I think we ventured into Lala Land when we arrived here.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> No need to research--just ask Joeysmomma. She's stated many times that she believes Obama will never leave office...and oh yes that the government is running concentration camps and stocking up on guillotines. :roll:


I would rather take a beating with a fat stick than ask joesomma's opinion on anything. The classic conspiracy theorist in action and a rabid Christian to boot. No thinking going on in that head.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

deleted decide not worth it.

Wish now had not delete.

What was said at first in that view did remind me of President Obama as it has it has been said of him. But after mention the father I knew it was Hilter. Only one man has controled the part of the world. 

Obama is a find husband and father. As I have not meet him and do not know him I can not form an opinion of that. But his policy's I do not agree what he has done as President. But then there are many President's I have not agreed with. 

As to mention someone again state opinions do not attack Joey for her opinions she has every right to voice her beliefs. When will you get pass that. We can agree not to agree.

I want to thank you Eve for your understanding on here as it is a free site. I also want to say I respect her and two others on the Liberal side. I am not here to start a name calling event. I am here to vioce my opinion. you do not have to agree with it. But you have no right to call me and others names. 

I am tried of all that lets get pass that it is just plan nuts. I have every right to post my beliefs with out feeling it is time to attack. Don't and I mean it don't think that because I have come on here it is a pass for all of you to again to go on DP and start again.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> deleted decide not worth it.
> 
> Wish now had not delete.
> 
> ...


It is nice to hear from you Yarnie - I applaud your post. Thank you for expressing your honest opinion. You have never been untrue to your beliefs. It is easy to be misunderstood and difficult to be the minority. HAPPY NEW YEAR and I hope good things happen for you.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> deleted decide not worth it.
> 
> Wish now had not delete.
> 
> ...


If you are talking about my comments about joey, she certainly does have a right to state her opinions, as do you. Anyone who sees through her insane beliefs has the right - no, the obligation - to refute those opinions for what they are. She has a bad habit of stating opinion as fact but the truth is not on her side.

No one wants to go to DP that I'm aware of. The question is, what are you doing here?


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> deleted decide not worth it.
> 
> Wish now had not delete.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: As I said earlier you are a gracious lady. We all have our differences and we are allowed to voice our different opinions. The world would be a dull place if we were all the same and all thought the same. Happy knitting.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

DGreen said:


> If you are talking about my comments about joey, she certainly does have a right to state her opinions, as do you. Anyone who sees through her insane beliefs has the right - no, the obligation - to refute those opinions for what they are. She has a bad habit of stating opinion as fact but the truth is not on her side.
> 
> No one wants to go to DP that I'm aware of. The question is, what are you doing here?


To say what I beleive that is why I am here. It is not LOLL, it is a place to voice what I saw in the video. you have every right to your opinion, about what Joey has said does not deserve an attack on her. It is her beliefs, that is what I am talking about.

As to going on DP when you do not agree some of your group and not all feel the need to attack. Maybe if we could just get pass the attacks and allow each to post their feelings we could get beyond all of this. I do not go over to LOLL and feel the need to attack any of you. I have every right to if I wanted to to post there. But feel that is your place to explan your thoughts. I want it to stop with attacking our site with just words of angry and calling people names. It's is nuts just plain nuts.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I did not pick up on that angle. I just read it as a questionnaire.
> 
> Just a question, what did Nostradamus have to say about the present problems in the world? So much of what he wrote has come true.


On my weirdo TV shows, they say that Nostradamus can only be understood after the fact since he was afraid that the Church would kill him for doing prophecies.

My first answer was going to be aske EveeeeeM. Ha Ha.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> No need to research--just ask Joeysmomma. She's stated many times that she believes Obama will never leave office...and oh yes that the government is running concentration camps and stocking up on guillotines. :roll:


Sounds like Mrs. Somma could use a literary agent.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> To say what I beleive that is why I am here. It is not LOLL, it is a place to voice what I saw in the video. you have every right to your opinion, about what Joey has said does not deserve an attack on her. It is her beliefs, that is what I am talking about.
> 
> As to going on DP when you do not agree some of your group and not all feel the need to attack. Maybe if we could just get pass the attacks and allow each to post their feelings we could get beyond all of this. I do not go over to LOLL and feel the need to attack any of you. I have every right to if I wanted to to post there. But feel that is your place to explan your thoughts. I want it to stop with attacking our site with just words of angry and calling people names. It's is nuts just plain nuts.


Ok, then. Aside from complaining about "calling people names" do you have an opinion you wish to express other than criticism of my/our disgust with joey's version of things like "chemtrails" and other outrageous theories already mentioned?

Regarding the video, for example; do you have an opinion about whether it is propaganda or something else? In MY opinion, it is a propaganda piece intended to equate Obama with Hitler, since it clearly infers we have yet to see the "true" Obama intent. If you disagree with this, I invite you to enlighten us as to how the video could possibly have any legitimate validity or useful message; defend it however you can.

As for joey's many statements about wild conspiracies, do you believe she has a right to state such as FACTS? If so, I would challenge you, or her, to produce actual evidence of such. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof and the burden of proof always rests on the one making the claim. She can state anything she wants but she needs to be ready to defend it - and that applies to you, as well.

Remember, she also has a habit of quoting scripture as FACT, when in reality, there is no proof and never has been proof of anything the bible says; living by how one interprets scripture is entirely a matter of BELIEF. Let me remind you that her attacks (including predictions of eternal punishment) on those who do not agree with scripture are plentiful and easily found.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> deleted decide not worth it.
> 
> Wish now had not delete.
> 
> ...


I agree with you! We all have a right to express our opinions and state facts as we know them. Liberals are just as guilty of stating their opinions as fact, as conservatives are. We each know what we know. Very few "facts" exist, as much is hidden. We each form opinions based upon what we've been exposed to. IMO, those who are not confident in themselves, feel the need to attack any who disagree. They drown out dissent with fervent desire to always be right. They refuse to discuss anything that negates their own beliefs. They are content where they are and do not seek to explore the ideas of others. They believe what their idols tell them and seek to destroy anyone who believes differently.

I used to be that person. I used to attack those who think differently with that same fervent desire to prove that I'm right. I still think that I'm right but I've stopped attacking. I'm listening and looking for things that we have in common. I've no problem with attacking ideas but I despise the attacks on the people who hold those ideas. It's bullying in its simplest form. And we all know what they say about bullies.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> It is nice to hear from you Yarnie - I applaud your post. Thank you for expressing your honest opinion. You have never been untrue to your beliefs. It is easy to be misunderstood and difficult to be the minority. HAPPY NEW YEAR and I hope good things happen for you.


Hi Shirley! How have you been feeling? I've been thinking of you.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> If you are talking about my comments about joey, she certainly does have a right to state her opinions, as do you. Anyone who sees through her insane beliefs has the right - no, the obligation - to refute those opinions for what they are. She has a bad habit of stating opinion as fact but the truth is not on her side.
> 
> No one wants to go to DP that I'm aware of. The question is, what are you doing here?


You've the right to refute her opinions but when you state that her beliefs are insane, you are going beyond refuting her opinions. You are implying that she is insane and that is not acceptable! You seem to be unable to discuss ideas that differ from your own and react in an almost violent manner. Seriously, why do you feel so threatened?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: As I said earlier you are a gracious lady. We all have our differences and we are allowed to voice our different opinions. The world would be a dull place if we were all the same and all thought the same. Happy knitting.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You've the right to refute her opinions but when you state that her beliefs are insane, you are going beyond refuting her opinions. You are implying that she is insane and that is not acceptable! You seem to be unable to discuss ideas that differ from your own and react in an almost violent manner. Seriously, why do you feel so threatened?


I'll stop calling them insane when she or anyone else comes up with valid, verifiable proof of any of the wild conspiracies we keep hearing about. Things like Obama wanting to remain in office, things like FEMA concentration camps, "chemtrails" and a worldwide plot to kill off large numbers of the world population to make it easier for the "new world order" to take over. Anyone is welcome to believe such things - I have the right to call them what they are.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Ok, then. Aside from complaining about "calling people names" do you have an opinion you wish to express other than criticism of my/our disgust with joey's version of things like "chemtrails" and other outrageous theories already mentioned?
> 
> Regarding the video, for example; do you have an opinion about whether it is propaganda or something else? In MY opinion, it is a propaganda piece intended to equate Obama with Hitler, since it clearly infers we have yet to see the "true" Obama intent. If you disagree with this, I invite you to enlighten us as to how the video could possibly have any legitimate validity or useful message; defend it however you can.
> 
> ...


And there you are, exposing your absolute denial of anything that makes you uncomfortable. You deride Joey's belief in chemtrails as if it were an outrageous theory. You are in denial! If you want to google "chemtrails", you'll find all sorts of crazy things but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. The latest technical terms for chemtrails are SRM, Solar Radiation Management or SRA, Solar Radiation Abatement. Google THAT! Then you'll find that you've been wrong all along. But you won't! You'd rather stay close minded and ridicule those who aren't. Or you could just look UP! They're striping the skies with their chemicals. The stripes all blend together to turn the sky white, thus reducing the sunlight that reaches the earth. They've been doing it here, 24 hours a day, for the last few days. The blue sky is almost gone.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> To say what I beleive that is why I am here. It is not LOLL, it is a place to voice what I saw in the video. you have every right to your opinion, about what Joey has said does not deserve an attack on her. It is her beliefs, that is what I am talking about.
> 
> As to going on DP when you do not agree some of your group and not all feel the need to attack. Maybe if we could just get pass the attacks and allow each to post their feelings we could get beyond all of this. I do not go over to LOLL and feel the need to attack any of you. I have every right to if I wanted to to post there. But feel that is your place to explan your thoughts. I want it to stop with attacking our site with just words of angry and calling people names. It's is nuts just plain nuts.


Hi, yarnlady. It's nice to see you here. I was one who got on DP a few days ago because there was a message from Jokim saying that Progressives are allied with Islamic terrorists (not her exact words, but I believe that was her meaning). That is not an opinion; it can only be true or false, and I know it to be false, so I questioned her on it. I don't think she ever responded, but Knit crazy did, with something else that was faked.

I would rather not go on DP; I don't even find it interesting to lurk there. But if that is where people tell each other lies about us, we at least have to look there.

By the way, I looked again the next day and found messages calling a few of us nasty names, very childish ones, by a person who told us to "grow up." I didn't respond to them because they weren't worth my time. But if she's going to act like a child and make up names, she has no right to accuse anyone else of being childish.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And there you are, exposing your absolute denial of anything that makes you uncomfortable. You deride Joey's belief in chemtrails as if it were an outrageous theory. You are in denial! If you want to google "chemtrails", you'll find all sorts of crazy things but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. The latest technical terms for chemtrails are SRM, Solar Radiation Management or SRA, Solar Radiation Abatement. Google THAT! Then you'll find that you've been wrong all along. But you won't! You'd rather stay close minded and ridicule those who aren't. Or you could just look UP! They're striping the skies with their chemicals. The stripes all blend together to turn the sky white, thus reducing the sunlight that reaches the earth. They've been doing it here, 24 hours a day, for the last few days. The blue sky is almost gone.


Chemtrails have been debunked repeatedly. Yes, I've looked it up and accept the most reasonable scientific explanation of a normal phenomenon instead of some theory of a sinister plot. Enjoy your nightmares - I have other, real problems to think about.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree with you! We all have a right to express our opinions and state facts as we know them. Liberals are just as guilty of stating their opinions as fact, as conservatives are. We each know what we know. Very few "facts" exist, as much is hidden. We each form opinions based upon what we've been exposed to. IMO, those who are not confident in themselves, feel the need to attack any who disagree. They drown out dissent with fervent desire to always be right. They refuse to discuss anything that negates their own beliefs. They are content where they are and do not seek to explore the ideas of others. They believe what their idols tell them and seek to destroy anyone who believes differently.
> 
> I used to be that person. I used to attack those who think differently with that same fervent desire to prove that I'm right. I still think that I'm right but I've stopped attacking. I'm listening and looking for things that we have in common. I've no problem with attacking ideas but I despise the attacks on the people who hold those ideas. It's bullying in its simplest form. And we all know what they say about bullies.


Do we? It seems to me that the wealthy in this country are bullies, and nobody can stop them.

As for attacking someone who doesn't agree with me, I may do that, but not because it's a different opinion. I do it because it sounds so off the wall that I can't imagine it could possibly be true, and I think it could result in harm. There are some statements that could be either true or false but nothing in between. Those are not really statements of opinion; they're either the truth or they're not, and only time will tell us which they are.

Do you really feel drowned out by progressive bullies? You haven't seen us disagree with each other, but we do, on many subjects. Still, certain subjects are so important that we can't let lies slip in, because people believing those lies could have a tragic end. The myth that the ACA is terrible for this country is one of those. People who are chronically ill but have no recourse to a doctor can die from their diseases (such as diabetes).

Whoa Nellie! I never expected to go on this long. Bye for now.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I'll stop calling them insane when she or anyone else comes up with valid, verifiable proof of any of the wild conspiracies we keep hearing about. Things like Obama wanting to remain in office, things like FEMA concentration camps, "chemtrails" and a worldwide plot to kill off large numbers of the world population to make it easier for the "new world order" to take over. Anyone is welcome to believe such things - I have the right to call them what they are.


http://www.academia.edu/2577296/The_Intergenerational_Transfer_of_Solar_Radiation_Management_Capabilities_and_Atmospheric_Carbon_Stocks

Quote from the introduction: "These technologies enable an increase in the earth's albedo with respect to solar radiation, eg by the dispersal of reflective aerosols in the atmosphere.".

http://www.srmgi.org/
Watch and listen to the video!

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/2/21/if-the-world-hadagiantthermostatwhowouldcontroltheweather.html

If you want more, do some research! Open your mind!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Do we? It seems to me that the wealthy in this country are bullies, and nobody can stop them.
> 
> As for attacking someone who doesn't agree with me, I may do that, but not because it's a different opinion. I do it because it sounds so off the wall that I can't imagine it could possibly be true, and I think it could result in harm. There are some statements that could be either true or false but nothing in between. Those are not really statements of opinion; they're either the truth or they're not, and only time will tell us which they are.
> 
> ...


It's one thing to attack an opinion. It's another to attack the person who holds that opinion. Attacking opinion, leads to discussion. Attacking individuals leads to other attacks. Which has benefit?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> http://www.academia.edu/2577296/The_Intergenerational_Transfer_of_Solar_Radiation_Management_Capabilities_and_Atmospheric_Carbon_Stocks
> 
> Quote from the introduction: "These technologies enable an increase in the earth's albedo with respect to solar radiation, eg by the dispersal of reflective aerosols in the atmosphere.".


From the FIRST PARAGRAPH:

"If developed, a future generation could deploy them"

Both articles discuss the POTENIAL for these ideas. Nothing about implementation. Nothing about secretive testing on an unsuspecting populace.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I'll stop calling them insane when she or anyone else comes up with valid, verifiable proof of any of the wild conspiracies we keep hearing about. Things like Obama wanting to remain in office, things like FEMA concentration camps, "chemtrails" and a worldwide plot to kill off large numbers of the world population to make it easier for the "new world order" to take over. Anyone is welcome to believe such things - I have the right to call them what they are.


DGreen
unfortunately insane fits to a T frequently. There is a reason for it being in Websters.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> From the FIRST PARAGRAPH:
> 
> "If developed, a future generation could deploy them"
> 
> Both articles discuss the POTENIAL for these ideas. Nothing about implementation. Nothing about secretive testing on an unsuspecting populace.


DGreen
speculation and imagination run rampant in some people's lives and everything they foresee is dark, very dark.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Hi Shirley! How have you been feeling? I've been thinking of you.


ThanKs Neb - slow but steady. Pretty sick this last time in hospital and it is taking time to build up my strength again.

I am doing better today than for some time. Good doctor who I trust, and he is making changes in my meds etc. I am optimistic that the worst is behind me. Thanks for all the support and kind words. I am laying quite low right now.

How is your dil and the babies? they are in my prayers. S


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Do we? It seems to me that the wealthy in this country are bullies, and nobody can stop them.
> 
> As for attacking someone who doesn't agree with me, I may do that, but not because it's a different opinion. I do it because it sounds so off the wall that I can't imagine it could possibly be true, and I think it could result in harm. There are some statements that could be either true or false but nothing in between. Those are not really statements of opinion; they're either the truth or they're not, and only time will tell us which they are.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Ok, then. Aside from complaining about "calling people names" do you have an opinion you wish to express other than criticism of my/our disgust with joey's version of things like "chemtrails" and other outrageous theories already mentioned?
> 
> Regarding the video, for example; do you have an opinion about whether it is propaganda or something else? In MY opinion, it is a propaganda piece intended to equate Obama with Hitler, since it clearly infers we have yet to see the "true" Obama intent. If you disagree with this, I invite you to enlighten us as to how the video could possibly have any legitimate validity or useful message; defend it however you can.
> 
> ...


I wanted to think this over and answer you with what I see in myself no one else, but me.

I am seeing in myself as the worst of all as to calling others names. I do not want to go there again. But having said that before and knowing who I am I will probably do it. But I hope not I really hope not.

I still think Joey has a right to state what she feels and thinks. You do not have to agree with her, but is that is what she sees. I just want you to not pick her apart because you do not believe as she does. I know Joey personal as we have met. She is a kind person, but she is stating her beliefs just as I do. Thats does not make her wrong or you right. That is Joey and she is true to herself and what she believes.

As to the video, I want to be trueful. My first thoughts were they were discribing Obama. But after I got pass his mention the father part. I knew it was Hilter, why because no one in this world has been as bad as that man was. 
Was I wrong about thinking it was Obama, yes I was . Have I called Obama Hilter? Knowing my past yes I probably did, just truefully can't remember. Doing it was it wrong yes. 
Yes if I am truthful it is a propaganda video.

I myself and no one else do I include with this. I am a mean bas--- when it comes to wanting to get even. Ask my husband, KFN is so right. I will go at it just to prove I am right, but in the end I am the one who apolozises why because I know I am wrong. 
this is not meant for you in what I believe it is meant for me to state how I feel.
The old saying what would Jesus do? Well I have ask myself of late What would Jesus think? Just my beliefs and not asking you to beleive it. I do not want to sit before the seat of Judgement and hear the words Yarnie what did you say? You know it was wrong you are not of me when you did it? I don't want to hear those words. I know he forgives me, but it is still wrong and I will have to answer for it.
I just want to say yes I am was and still am wrong for the words that should not have been said in angry. My keyboard is my worst enmey. Just kidding I am . That is my truth. That is what I know of myself. But when I voice my beliefs I do not want to be talk down to be called stupid ect. as both you and I know what will happen I will again go off the wall.

On another site a women came on and said and just my words of what I read. She said I do not comment on any of these sites, but sure do love to read them. All I could think of is what the heck am I doing to cause one person to enjoy it. Wow that is what another person thinks of all of this?? 
That is why I came on here to say lets stop judging each other. Your truth is how you believe my truth is what I believe. It does not make either of them wrong or right. 
We all are on a jouney through this life. I see myself as becoming a mini Hilter and I do not like what I see. 
Sorry so long posting but want to be honest . I am not perfect so I do hope that I will stop and think before I post again to attack someone with name calling ect. So I ask you forgive me for the pass and apologize for now. I really hope I can stay the course that My God has set before me. But do so hope that I do not do it again.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Hi, yarnlady. It's nice to see you here. I was one who got on DP a few days ago because there was a message from Jokim saying that Progressives are allied with Islamic terrorists (not her exact words, but I believe that was her meaning). That is not an opinion; it can only be true or false, and I know it to be false, so I questioned her on it. I don't think she ever responded, but Knit crazy did, with something else that was faked.
> 
> I would rather not go on DP; I don't even find it interesting to lurk there. But if that is where people tell each other lies about us, we at least have to look there.
> 
> By the way, I looked again the next day and found messages calling a few of us nasty names, very childish ones, by a person who told us to "grow up." I didn't respond to them because they weren't worth my time. But if she's going to act like a child and make up names, she has no right to accuse anyone else of being childish.


I can not answer for any one but myself. As said to D Green I am the only person I can judge and my actions. Like I said when it comes to a war of words I can be a Bi---.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> I wanted to think this over and answer you with what I see in myself no one else, but me.
> 
> I am seeing in myself as the worst of all as to calling others names. I do not want to go there again. But having said that before and knowing who I am I will probably do it. But I hope not I really hope not.
> 
> ...


Yarnie - thanks so much for writing this. I am sure if all of us all met, we would have a great time and our political differences would not matter one bit. How we treat others is what is important.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I did not pick up on that angle. I just read it as a questionnaire.
> 
> Just a question, what did Nostradamus have to say about the present problems in the world? So much of what he wrote has come true.


I have read some of what Norstradmus has written. yes it has come true.

Another person I have read is Dave Wilkerson's book The Vision. It may be out of print and you may not want to read it. But he also perdicted what would happen in this country and I see it bearing fruit. He is a Christian that is why I said you may not want to read his book. Both men have predict what would happen in the world. Both have been found to be right to me.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Yarnie - thank you for making the effort and coming here - I agree with so much of what you have said. I have been angry too, and hurt. However I basically agree with what you have said. We will have to answer for our actions and I know you are being honest. Your post won't change those who don't want to change on either side. However you are the first person who I have felt wants to stop all the nastiness.

I think if a few of us start that way, maybe we can accomplish something. I once again applaud you for your thoughts and your wishes. We have developed our feeling about the world from our childhood and adulthood experiences, good and bad. There are others on your thread that I know are true to their faith. Others are not interested in finding a meeting of minds. We will never agree as to our Politics, and our basic ideas are different, but we can still believe that being kind is something we can aim for. I have not been able to get past the hurt and frustration, but you make me want to try harder.

I know you believe that I am not as evil as some on your thread do. I also thank you for your return of my Christmas Greetings. So as far as I am concerned I will still standup for my beliefs and our Political Differences, But I won't attack anyone unless I am called a liar or sneaking or the other words that 2 people use all the time. I promise I will try to do the same thing you are trying to do. 

You are the first person I have seen with the courage to come here and be counted. I applaud you.


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## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Ok, then. Aside from complaining about "calling people names" do you have an opinion you wish to express other than criticism of my/our disgust with joey's version of things like "chemtrails" and other outrageous theories already mentioned?
> 
> Regarding the video, for example; do you have an opinion about whether it is propaganda or something else? In MY opinion, it is a propaganda piece intended to equate Obama with Hitler, since it clearly infers we have yet to see the "true" Obama intent. If you disagree with this, I invite you to enlighten us as to how the video could possibly have any legitimate validity or useful message; defend it however you can.
> 
> ...


I think you've missed the point; it's possible to disagree with someone's viewpoint or challenge their beliefs without trying to insult, belittle or mock the person. I don't recall that Joey has ever made personal insults, made fun of anyone's physical traits or carried on for pages about their choice of avatar -- but all of those things have been done to her on a regular basis by some posters on these threads. In fact some posters have said they get entertainment value by making fun of others. We all make choices in how we respond to others -- and yes, I can make better choices too and am a work in progress.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

These threads have been going on for years -- it has gotten nastier and nastier. The only way we can do anything about it is try to keep personalities out of our opinions and try not to be nasty for the sake of being nasty. 

I think I am a work in progress too Kitty. I speak only for myself. I know it will be easier now that Yarnie feels as I do. I hope to react less and think more without replying. I know my motives, and it hurts to be attacked when I am trying to be honest. However, I will try to let it go - I just hope that others of us will try. I speak only for myself. One thing we have to do is speak for ourselves, -- we can't speak for others. We have to read the individual posts and we have to accept that on either side we are not all the same. 

Well ladies, I am weary and am going to go and make dinner for Pat and I and sit and read or knit tonight. This is the best day I have had for over a month so it is slowly coming. See you all tomorrow.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sorry Eve. I think of Nostradamus as being in a club with the Oracle at Delphi.



EveMCooke said:


> I did not pick up on that angle. I just read it as a questionnaire.
> 
> Just a question, what did Nostradamus have to say about the present problems in the world? So much of what he wrote has come true.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> Sorry Eve. I think of Nostradamus as being in a club with the Oracle at Delphi.


There are more things between Heaven and Earth....


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I would say that joey's opinions are insane because they are not based on fact and she repeats the same opinions endlessly expecting others to believe her. Sometimes you just have to say the Emperor's new clothes don't exist and he's naked. IMHO



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You've the right to refute her opinions but when you state that her beliefs are insane, you are going beyond refuting her opinions. You are implying that she is insane and that is not acceptable! You seem to be unable to discuss ideas that differ from your own and react in an almost violent manner. Seriously, why do you feel so threatened?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Uncle. We have just entered the Twilight Zone.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And there you are, exposing your absolute denial of anything that makes you uncomfortable. You deride Joey's belief in chemtrails as if it were an outrageous theory. You are in denial! If you want to google "chemtrails", you'll find all sorts of crazy things but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. The latest technical terms for chemtrails are SRM, Solar Radiation Management or SRA, Solar Radiation Abatement. Google THAT! Then you'll find that you've been wrong all along. But you won't! You'd rather stay close minded and ridicule those who aren't. Or you could just look UP! They're striping the skies with their chemicals. The stripes all blend together to turn the sky white, thus reducing the sunlight that reaches the earth. They've been doing it here, 24 hours a day, for the last few days. The blue sky is almost gone.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put.

"Still, certain subjects are so important that we can't let lies slip in, because people believing those lies could have a tragic end."



Poor Purl said:


> Do we? It seems to me that the wealthy in this country are bullies, and nobody can stop them.
> 
> As for attacking someone who doesn't agree with me, I may do that, but not because it's a different opinion. I do it because it sounds so off the wall that I can't imagine it could possibly be true, and I think it could result in harm. There are some statements that could be either true or false but nothing in between. Those are not really statements of opinion; they're either the truth or they're not, and only time will tell us which they are.
> 
> ...


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It's one thing to attack an opinion. It's another to attack the person who holds that opinion. Attacking opinion, leads to discussion. Attacking individuals leads to other attacks. Which has benefit?


You're right. But all of us become hotheads when faced with certain opinions, and that's when the shouting starts. You have to wait for it to subside, for the speaker to cool down, before you can expect decent talk, as you deserve.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Sorry Eve. I think of Nostradamus as being in a club with the Oracle at Delphi.


Really? I find the Oracle much more believable than Nostradamus.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Really? I find the Oracle much more believable than Nostradamus.


What did the Oracle predict?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> I can not answer for any one but myself. As said to D Green I am the only person I can judge and my actions. Like I said when it comes to a war of words I can be a Bi---.


I'm sorry that you're so hard on yourself. I've seen you be a Bi---, and I've seen you be a warm, protective woman. The Bi--- is only temporary, but the woman is underneath it all.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> What did the Oracle predict?


That Oedipus would be complex.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm sorry that you're so hard on yourself. I've seen you be a Bi---, and I've seen you be a warm, protective woman. The Bi--- is only temporary, but the woman is underneath it all.


I agree - I think we know that you struggle as some of us do and get drawn in when you really don't want to. Once again, I think you open a door.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm sorry that you're so hard on yourself. I've seen you be a Bi---, and I've seen you be a warm, protective woman. The Bi--- is only temporary, but the woman is underneath it all.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Whatever would earn him/her some money and allow keeping head on shoulders if asked for opinion by the king. Some things never change.



SQM said:


> What did the Oracle predict?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> That Oedipus would be complex.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> I have read some of what Norstradmus has written. yes it has come true.
> 
> Another person I have read is Dave Wilkerson's book The Vision. It may be out of print and you may not want to read it. But he also perdicted what would happen in this country and I see it bearing fruit. He is a Christian that is why I said you may not want to read his book. Both men have predict what would happen in the world. Both have been found to be right to me.


Thank you for recommending that book, I will look to see it there is a copy in the State Library System. There may also be a copy available from another source. I read widely and do not pass over a book because it is written by someone of a particular religion. I believe you cannot comment on a particular book unless you have read it. But thank you for the recommendation, hopefully the book will be on Kindle as I can adjust the print in Kindle, it makes it so much easier for my old eye to read.

Nostradamus's prophesies are interesting. Many interpretations can be applied to his prophesies, depending on your point of view. His prophesies can also be misinterpreted, which is what a lot of people do. They piece together his prophecies after an event and then say "look Nostradamus predicted that", but hindsight can be wonderful and it can be misleading.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> Sorry Eve. I think of Nostradamus as being in a club with the Oracle at Delphi.


He is interesting to read, though. But I think I also like reading how other people cut and paste his predictions after an event. I had two friends who each had a copy of his book and would sit down every night and pour over his words to see if they could link his words in any way to what was happening in in their everyday world. My comments were more tongue in cheek so perhaps I should have added TIC. When I was posting the reference to Nastradamus I was remembering a TV show of the late 1970s when they used his writings to predict what would happen in the future. If you analysed what they were saying you could reply that "yes, it could come true but it all depends on how you are reading it". Many of his predictions could also be attributed to common sense, seeing that action A will result in consequences B.

Do you remember Mother Shipton, or maybe you have not heard of her. Her prophesies were very big in the 1950s.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

A good book on prophecy is "The Late Great Planet Earth " by Hal Lindsey. Any of his books are good but this is the first one I read.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> deleted decide not worth it.
> 
> Wish now had not delete.
> 
> ...


I'm having a hard time digesting your post since you very recently announced over on D&P that I am a man because Vocal Lisa said so. So I don't think you're in any position to tell others they have no right to call you names.

As for you being 'tried' (I think you meant tired) "of all that lets get pass that it is just plain nuts" well the join the club. There, I've just voiced my opinion.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> If you are talking about my comments about joey, she certainly does have a right to state her opinions, as do you. Anyone who sees through her insane beliefs has the right - no, the obligation - to refute those opinions for what they are. She has a bad habit of stating opinion as fact but the truth is not on her side.
> 
> No one wants to go to DP that I'm aware of. The question is, what are you doing here?


Exactly. I hate to say it but it wouldn't surprise me at all that KPG is orchestrating this from her non participatory vantage point.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> To say what I beleive that is why I am here. It is not LOLL, it is a place to voice what I saw in the video. you have every right to your opinion, about what Joey has said does not deserve an attack on her. It is her beliefs, that is what I am talking about.
> 
> As to going on DP when you do not agree some of your group and not all feel the need to attack. Maybe if we could just get pass the attacks and allow each to post their feelings we could get beyond all of this. *I do not go over to LOLL and feel the need to attack any of you.* I have every right to if I wanted to to post there. But feel that is your place to explan your thoughts. I want it to stop with attacking our site with just words of angry and calling people names. It's is nuts just plain nuts.


No, you don't go over to LOLL to attack, you stay on the D&P thread to do your attacking don't you? You haven't got the gumption to try it on any other thread. Pretty typical of those on D&P. And you wonder why people go over to your site? Seriously?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree with you! We all have a right to express our opinions and state facts as we know them. Liberals are just as guilty of stating their opinions as fact, as conservatives are. We each know what we know. Very few "facts" exist, as much is hidden. We each form opinions based upon what we've been exposed to. IMO, those who are not confident in themselves, feel the need to attack any who disagree. They drown out dissent with fervent desire to always be right. They refuse to discuss anything that negates their own beliefs. They are content where they are and do not seek to explore the ideas of others. They believe what their idols tell them and seek to destroy anyone who believes differently.
> 
> I used to be that person. I used to attack those who think differently with that same fervent desire to prove that I'm right. I still think that I'm right but I've stopped attacking. I'm listening and looking for things that we have in common. I've no problem with attacking ideas but I despise the attacks on the people who hold those ideas. It's bullying in its simplest form. And we all know what they say about bullies.


Blech :hunf:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You've the right to refute her opinions but when you state that her beliefs are insane, you are going beyond refuting her opinions. You are implying that she is insane and that is not acceptable! You seem to be unable to discuss ideas that differ from your own and react in an almost violent manner. Seriously, why do you feel so threatened?


That is utter baloney Nebraska. Try again.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And there you are, exposing your absolute denial of anything that makes you uncomfortable. You deride Joey's belief in chemtrails as if it were an outrageous theory. You are in denial! If you want to google "chemtrails", you'll find all sorts of crazy things but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. The latest technical terms for chemtrails are SRM, Solar Radiation Management or SRA, Solar Radiation Abatement. Google THAT! Then you'll find that you've been wrong all along. But you won't! You'd rather stay close minded and ridicule those who aren't. Or you could just look UP! They're striping the skies with their chemicals. The stripes all blend together to turn the sky white, thus reducing the sunlight that reaches the earth. They've been doing it here, 24 hours a day, for the last few days. The blue sky is almost gone.


Changed my mind. What response could anyone come up with to this?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> I wanted to think this over and answer you with what I see in myself no one else, but me.
> 
> I am seeing in myself as the worst of all as to calling others names. I do not want to go there again. But having said that before and knowing who I am I will probably do it. But I hope not I really hope not.
> 
> ...


And was this *epiphany* of yours before or after accusing me of being a man?

Repent all you want. I cannot see you as trustworthy. Ever.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> That Oedipus would be complex.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Exactly. I hate to say it but it wouldn't surprise me at all that KPG is orchestrating this from her non participatory vantage point.


Nah. Too conciliatory.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> I wanted to think this over and answer you with what I see in myself no one else, but me.
> 
> I am seeing in myself as the worst of all as to calling others names. I do not want to go there again. But having said that before and knowing who I am I will probably do it. But I hope not I really hope not.
> 
> ...


Like you, I wanted to give myself a little time before posting and the first thing I want to say is we could all benefit from the kind of soul-searching you seem to have done. I know little about you but my attitude toward you is pretty positive, as it is based on a private conversation you and I had some time ago where I felt you were genuinely interested in learning about my beliefs. You were respectful and tolerant even though you expressed disagreement. Consequently, I have made a deliberate effort to show you the same courtesy. I think you are being a little too hard on yourself, especially when you say you were wrong to think the video was about Obama - it was clearly intended to do exactly that. You also recognized it as propaganda, which tells me you use your brains for something other than to keep your ears apart. I truly believe you have a good heart and are trying to do what's right.

As for joey, I have never seen any tolerance or evidence of thinking in her. On the contrary, away from D&P she is extremely judgmental and deliberately provocative, taking advantage of any excuse to inject her extreme views into conversations. She has an annoying habit of using cut and paste in an apparent attempt to convince the world that she is right because "others" agree with her political beliefs. Don't agree with her religion? Expect to be buried in scriptural quotes. Of course, most of her cut/paste jobs are merely opinion pieces from sources liberals would never bother to read, knowing the extreme bias (and often outright lies) they contain. I don't think she does this out of any effort to seek understanding; it's her way of saying, "Stick THIS up your nose!" She is also unapologetically judgmental. She has repeatedly stated that anyone who does not believe in her version of god will go to hell, accompanied by appropriate bible quotes. Just the other day, one of her posts contained this: "You can choose to not believe. But then when you reach the gates of heaven, you will not enter." And another, "And unless you accept the fact that you are a sinner, as I am. And ask Jesus to forgive your sins, as I have. You will never see the Kingdom of God." These are not softened in any way by saying, "I believe." They are flat-out personal judgments and as such, they are offensive. She regurgitates extreme right-wing political talking points constantly and seizes upon isolated incidents as supposed proof that liberals ALL are conspiring to destroy our country. She is incapable of recognizing nuance and displays no evidence whatever of critical thinking or logic in her arguments or statements. She is a conspiracy theorist and tries to convince others to believe lies. She brings antagonism and anger to every post on the liberal threads (while dripping with sweetness and love on D&P) and should expect to receive the same in kind. I'll give her no slack.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> No, you don't go over to LOLL to attack, you stay on the D&P thread to do your attacking don't you? You haven't got the gumption to try it on any other thread. Pretty typical of those on D&P. And you wonder why people go over to your site? Seriously?


I have known yarnie for years. I think she is sincere.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I have known yarnie for years. I think she is sincere.


I agree.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> No, you don't go over to LOLL to attack, you stay on the D&P thread to do your attacking don't you? You haven't got the gumption to try it on any other thread. Pretty typical of those on D&P. And you wonder why people go over to your site? Seriously?


Wombat - we talk about those we dislike and don't agree with on LOLL. This is an open thread. I think someone is trying to slow the nastiness down. We have all said many things we regret. Once again, I believe Yarnie - I don't think this is organize by anyone else. If someone comes and makes an effort I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt. Each of us has to make our own decisions. I personally agree that I want to try. I know that I am not ever going to be 
believed by some on D and P. There are some (one or two at the most - that I will never trust). That is to be expected with the way things have developed between our groups.

You have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> That is utter baloney Nebraska. Try again.


 :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Nah. Too conciliatory.


?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Wombat - we talk about those we dislike and don't agree with on LOLL. This is an open thread. I think someone is trying to slow the nastiness down. We have all said many things we regret. Once again, I believe Yarnie - I don't think this is organize by anyone else. If someone comes and makes an effort I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt. Each of us has to make our own decisions. I personally agree that I want to try. I know that I am not ever going to be
> believed by some on D and P. There are some (one or two at the most - that I will never trust). That is to be expected with the way things have developed between our groups.
> 
> You have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine.


Your last sentence leaves me wondering why you addressed me over this Designer (by the way I'm glad you're feeling better). Like you, there are some on D&P that I do not trust, and never will, and one of them happens to be Yarnie.

I have no issue with anyone else accepting her apology or whatever it was. As for me, I just can't. I don't think she is being sincere at all. She stated quite emphatically that although she would probably continue to call people names, she'd really try not to. To me, a comment like that suggests she's hedging her bets so that when she is nasty to someone, she can simply refer to her warning that she'd probably continue being so.

Her announcement about me being a man was pure spite and troll like behaviour. No thanks.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Like you, I wanted to give myself a little time before posting and the first thing I want to say is we could all benefit from the kind of soul-searching you seem to have done. I know little about you but my attitude toward you is pretty positive, as it is based on a private conversation you and I had some time ago where I felt you were genuinely interested in learning about my beliefs. You were respectful and tolerant even though you expressed disagreement. Consequently, I have made a deliberate effort to show you the same courtesy. I think you are being a little too hard on yourself, especially when you say you were wrong to think the video was about Obama - it was clearly intended to do exactly that. You also recognized it as propaganda, which tells me you use your brains for something other than to keep your ears apart. I truly believe you have a good heart and are trying to do what's right.
> 
> As for joey, I have never seen any tolerance or evidence of thinking in her. On the contrary, away from D&P she is extremely judgmental and deliberately provocative, taking advantage of any excuse to inject her extreme views into conversations. She has an annoying habit of using cut and paste in an apparent attempt to convince the world that she is right because "others" agree with her political beliefs. Don't agree with her religion? Expect to be buried in scriptural quotes. Of course, most of her cut/paste jobs are merely opinion pieces from sources liberals would never bother to read, knowing the extreme bias (and often outright lies) they contain. I don't think she does this out of any effort to seek understanding; it's her way of saying, "Stick THIS up your nose!" She is also unapologetically judgmental. She has repeatedly stated that anyone who does not believe in her version of god will go to hell, accompanied by appropriate bible quotes. Just the other day, one of her posts contained this: "You can choose to not believe. But then when you reach the gates of heaven, you will not enter." And another, "And unless you accept the fact that you are a sinner, as I am. And ask Jesus to forgive your sins, as I have. You will never see the Kingdom of God." These are not softened in any way by saying, "I believe." They are flat-out personal judgments and as such, they are offensive. She regurgitates extreme right-wing political talking points constantly and seizes upon isolated incidents as supposed proof that liberals ALL are conspiring to destroy our country. She is incapable of recognizing nuance and displays no evidence whatever of critical thinking or logic in her arguments or statements. She is a conspiracy theorist and tries to convince others to believe lies. She brings antagonism and anger to every post on the liberal threads (while dripping with sweetness and love on D&P) and should expect to receive the same in kind. I'll give her no slack.


DGreen
My sentiment exactly. Thank you. Huck


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

DGreen said:


> If you are talking about my comments about joey, she certainly does have a right to state her opinions, as do you. Anyone who sees through her insane beliefs has the right - no, the obligation - to refute those opinions for what they are. She has a bad habit of stating opinion as fact but the truth is not on her side.
> 
> No one wants to go to DP that I'm aware of. The question is, what are you doing here?


I don't see how any of us has any obligation to refute anyone's beliefs and opinions. Rights and obligations are very different things. Yeah, you have the right to say your say, and joey has just as much of a right to state her beliefs and opinions, even if she states them as facts. Lots of people do that. They don't care one bit about whether the truth is on their side. What difference does that make?

All you've succeeded in doing is get me to stand up for joey. Just lately I've gone after her about her avatar. Her avatar is a tangible reality that she could be influenced to change. Or not. And, yes, sometimes I respond to her other posts because they drive me crazy. I try not to do that because I can't influence her to change any of her beliefs and opinions.

So, hang in there, joey. Most of your posts drive me wild but that doesn't mean a thing.

PS, DGreen. As I catch up with everything from page 55 of this topic to here, I see you've already gotten a lot of responses about how you react to some kinds of posts. didn't realize that horse had already been thoroughly beaten to death...


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Designer, great avatar!! Is that another one of your creations?   I just read your footnote. You are one fine artist. :thumbup:


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Duplicate.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I'm having a hard time digesting your post since you very recently announced over on D&P that I am a man because Vocal Lisa said so. So I don't think you're in any position to tell others they have no right to call you names.
> 
> As for you being 'tried' (I think you meant tired) "of all that lets get pass that it is just plain nuts" well the join the club. There, I've just voiced my opinion.


Yes I did say that, as KPG even told us that Lisa was wrong' Lisa again mention it and I went on interent and found a Wombat in the Philppines who had a twin sister in Australia Whose internet name was Wombat no more. I again went and looked it up. I was angry for the name calling and posted what I beleived, was what I thought. Should I have done it no no no. Do I owe you an apology yes and I will post it I was wrong. I have no excuse for doing that no matter how I felt. Why did I do it on DP because some where on there attacking again. I did not want to go on any site other then DP as it would lead to more problems, and I used angry to get even that is still no excuse for doing it. I am sorry I judge you in angry. As I have said before I did it in angry and there is no excuse for it. I am sorry for hurting you and I do mean it and I do apolozie for hurting you.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Your last sentence leaves me wondering why you addressed me over this Designer (by the way I'm glad you're feeling better). Like you, there are some on D&P that I do not trust, and never will, and one of them happens to be Yarnie.
> 
> I have no issue with anyone else accepting her apology or whatever it was. As for me, I just can't. I don't think she is being sincere at all. She stated quite emphatically that although she would probably continue to call people names, she'd really try not to. To me, a comment like that suggests she's hedging her bets so that when she is nasty to someone, she can simply refer to her warning that she'd probably continue being so.
> 
> Her announcement about me being a man was pure spite and troll like behaviour. No thanks.


That was not what I meant at all about doing it again. I am human and I have a problem controling my angry . I do not want to do it again. I know who I am and like I have stated before.If you knew my husband he would tell you the same thing. I will not except that I may be wrong when I am mad. I will go after him tooth and nail . When I cool down I know I have done wrong and I have to apologize to him. Not to say he does not do the same thing, but we have learned being married so long that the only way to get pass it is to apologize. If I don't I would be in divorce court by now. 
If I have learned nothing from my Fathers death, and what he and my mom taught me it is to ask for forgiveness. It is easier to hate then it is to love.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

deleted double post.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Just to be clear --- I am not saying I won't discuss my beliefs and if there is something that I strongly disagree with I will post it. However I will try to stop attacking anyone and try to avoid answering nasty posts aimed at me. 

Someone calling me twisted or a liar, (which one or two do all the time), might be different. I do promise to try to avoid using names and attacking - 
===================

Well it is another 'winter' day here. I can't believe we haven't had snow except for just a dusting. It is averaging about 7dg. Celcius which is, I believe 46F or close to it. I have lost my C - F graph. 

Calgary, is nearly always between -15 and -25 with lots of snow and extra cold windchill.

I have only worn sweaters since I got here. It is dull, and little sun, but enough to not worry about it. The azalea buds are showing and will be blooming soon. 

We haven't had nearly the rain I was expecting. So in that respect I am a happy camper. I think the whole place will be in bloom (trees with beautiful blossoms and many plants that don't even try to grow in the Prairies by the middle of Feb. Short winters, long summers -- the opposite from where we came from.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> <Joeysomma> is also unapologetically judgmental. She has repeatedly stated that anyone who does not believe in her version of god will go to hell, accompanied by appropriate bible quotes. Just the other day, one of her posts contained this: "You can choose to not believe. But then when you reach the gates of heaven, you will not enter." And another, "And unless you accept the fact that you are a sinner, as I am. And ask Jesus to forgive your sins, as I have. You will never see the Kingdom of God." These are not softened in any way by saying, "I believe." They are flat-out personal judgments and as such, they are offensive.


Have you thought of the possibility that she's a descendant of the Oracle of Delphi?

I don't think you were around for the Obamacare threads, which went on and on and on. Several of the D&P crowd would post about how disastrous it would be, a train wreck, it would do a lot of damage. I always wondered how they knew all that before the ACA was in any written form. Decided it was all either the Oracle or Prophecy.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Like you, I wanted to give myself a little time before posting and the first thing I want to say is we could all benefit from the kind of soul-searching you seem to have done. I know little about you but my attitude toward you is pretty positive, as it is based on a private conversation you and I had some time ago where I felt you were genuinely interested in learning about my beliefs. You were respectful and tolerant even though you expressed disagreement. Consequently, I have made a deliberate effort to show you the same courtesy. I think you are being a little too hard on yourself, especially when you say you were wrong to think the video was about Obama - it was clearly intended to do exactly that. You also recognized it as propaganda, which tells me you use your brains for something other than to keep your ears apart. I truly believe you have a good heart and are trying to do what's right.
> 
> As for joey, I have never seen any tolerance or evidence of thinking in her. On the contrary, away from D&P she is extremely judgmental and deliberately provocative, taking advantage of any excuse to inject her extreme views into conversations. She has an annoying habit of using cut and paste in an apparent attempt to convince the world that she is right because "others" agree with her political beliefs. Don't agree with her religion? Expect to be buried in scriptural quotes. Of course, most of her cut/paste jobs are merely opinion pieces from sources liberals would never bother to read, knowing the extreme bias (and often outright lies) they contain. I don't think she does this out of any effort to seek understanding; it's her way of saying, "Stick THIS up your nose!" She is also unapologetically judgmental. She has repeatedly stated that anyone who does not believe in her version of god will go to hell, accompanied by appropriate bible quotes. Just the other day, one of her posts contained this: "You can choose to not believe. But then when you reach the gates of heaven, you will not enter." And another, "And unless you accept the fact that you are a sinner, as I am. And ask Jesus to forgive your sins, as I have. You will never see the Kingdom of God." These are not softened in any way by saying, "I believe." They are flat-out personal judgments and as such, they are offensive. She regurgitates extreme right-wing political talking points constantly and seizes upon isolated incidents as supposed proof that liberals ALL are conspiring to destroy our country. She is incapable of recognizing nuance and displays no evidence whatever of critical thinking or logic in her arguments or statements. She is a conspiracy theorist and tries to convince others to believe lies. She brings antagonism and anger to every post on the liberal threads (while dripping with sweetness and love on D&P) and should expect to receive the same in kind. I'll give her no slack.


I have to speak about what I know about Joey as we have met several time. 
She is only posting her beliefs. We have all done the copy and paste. She may not come across as what others think she should. But she has her beliefs and her rights. She is a very devote Christian. She has gone to other countries for her faith and help and gave so much and continues to do so.
She quotes the Bible and that is her truth as it is mine. We post from the Bible yes I do may not like it but we hold strongly to our faith.
As to saying going to hell, well I have said the same thing. Maid in belm can attest to that. I did it to her when she mention she would not go to heaven unless there were dogs there. Did I come on strong you bet your sweet bippy I did. Was it right in my eyes yes. Does it mean I should have said it that way no. I am again speaking for myself. It is my opinion and i could have said it a better way then I did.

But one thing I do know is that Joey is the kindest person you would ever want to meet. She was there for me when my world was spinning around during my Dad leaving this earth and I know he is in heaven and with out pain.But I am a selfish person and wanted him to stay here. I know what Susan is facing it hurts it just hurts. Because of Joey and her help me through that journey it help me except what was to be.
you do not have to except her opinion I agree. But she to me is right. Why because I believe as she does. That is her truth and that is mine also, and CB and many others in our group. 
Yes we do share what I tease and say is kissy face and love.
But I see that in your group too. Nothing wrong with it, to have such a kindness to each other is a good thing is it not.

Friendship is a wonderful thing if one meets even on the internet strong bonds are form. We defend each other because of that. I would think least of anyone who did not. I don't like pretend kissy face people.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Have you thought of the possibility that she's a descendant of the Oracle of Delphi?
> 
> I don't think you were around for the Obamacare threads, which went on and on and on. Several of the D&P crowd would post about how disastrous it would be, a train wreck, it would do a lot of damage. I always wondered how they knew all that before the ACA was in any written form. Decided it was all either the Oracle or Prophecy.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:

You are correct, I wasn't around for the Obamacare threads, but I can imagine. Funny how if one prophesy is found to be "true" the other 99 which were wrong are forgotten - or held out to still be valid - in the future.

Bah on prophesy, anyway. I could be a prophet by saying the world will be at war in 50 years (or 500) and be right. Or that earthquakes and volcanoes will rain down death to humans for ignoring climate change.

Trumpets, please.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Thank you Yarnie. But I am just a sinner saved by grace.
> 
> I do not proclaim that I know everything about God or eternity. I do believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. I will quote the Bible to support my statements. You have been given free will and you can choose to believe or not believe.


Just for you, Joey.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Just for you, Joey.


Obviously not a believer, so the quote is meaningless to those who do. He or she can choose to believe or not to believe, but as the saying goes, "There are no atheists in foxholes"


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Obviously not a believer, so the quote is meaningless to those who do. He or she can choose to believe or not to believe, but as the saying goes, "There are no atheists in foxholes"


Um...that was carved by a Jew in a concentration camp, a loooooong step down from a foxhole....


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> Um...that was carved by a Jew in a concentration camp, a loooooong step down from a foxhole....


You Betcha!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> Obviously not a believer, so the quote is meaningless to those who do. He or she can choose to believe or not to believe, but as the saying goes, "There are no atheists in foxholes"


You are correct, ltl, I'm not a believer. I came very close to death a couple of years ago (BAD heart attack) and I recently had a stroke - both life-threatening. The thought of god never entered my mind - not even a fleeting shadow of a thought. You see, I don't fear death - I fear living badly because I believe this life is all any of us have.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD:
> 
> You are correct, I wasn't around for the Obamacare threads, but I can imagine. Funny how if one prophesy is found to be "true" the other 99 which were wrong are forgotten - or held out to still be valid - in the future.
> 
> ...


You asked for it:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> Obviously not a believer, so the quote is meaningless to those who do. He or she can choose to believe or not to believe, but as the saying goes, "There are no atheists in foxholes"


Sorry to hear about your dog. Your post on D and P was very sad, indeed. I am sure your dog's heaven was being with you. Please post on this thread the pic of the new puppy. Mazel tov.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Obviously not a believer, so the quote is meaningless to those who do. He or she can choose to believe or not to believe, but as the saying goes, "There are no atheists in foxholes"


"Obviously not a believer"???? Could you possibly get any more insulting?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> "Obviously not a believer"???? Could you possibly get any more insulting?


I'm used to hearing crap like that - as if that person (or others like her) are magically experts on what is in my heart and mind. Devout Christians are extremely uncomfortable with us atheists.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You asked for it: quote]
> 
> Purl, you're priceless.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> "Obviously not a believer"???? Could you possibly get any more insulting?


Sure, but she'd have to give it some thought. That's where the problem is.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Sure, but she'd have to give it some thought. That's where the problem is.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> Yes I did say that, as KPG even told us that Lisa was wrong' Lisa again mention it and I went on interent and found a Wombat in the Philppines who had a twin sister in Australia Whose internet name was Wombat no more. I again went and looked it up. I was angry for the name calling and posted what I beleived, was what I thought. Should I have done it no no no. Do I owe you an apology yes and I will post it I was wrong. I have no excuse for doing that no matter how I felt. Why did I do it on DP because some where on there attacking again. I did not want to go on any site other then DP as it would lead to more problems, and I used angry to get even that is still no excuse for doing it. I am sorry I judge you in angry. As I have said before I did it in angry and there is no excuse for it. I am sorry for hurting you and I do mean it and I do apolozie for hurting you.


Way to go Yarnie! String it out just a little longer that I am or could be a man. Then sweeten things by apologizing.

You totally lack any tact or sophistication and to me you are simply a loose cannon, no filter between brain and mouth.

Apologize all you want. Damage is done. No going back.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> "Obviously not a believer"???? Could you possibly get any more insulting?


The answer to that is yes!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> The answer to that is yes!


Right you are. She's proved that on numerous occasions.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Designer - I love your avatar. Tell us about it.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Um...that was carved by a Jew in a concentration camp, a loooooong step down from a foxhole....


likely before he was put in the ovens. Unbelievably sad.

It speaks volumns


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Designer - I love your avatar. Tell us about it.


It is one of 20 or 24 blocks I gave her four of them to make pillows to match. I painted with metalic paint on black fabric and was made into a quilt. I don't have the finished quilt picture. It was very bright . For a member of my family. The room was in black with off white walls. The quilt was hung on the wall. Quite effective. One of the most different of all my bed quilts. Looked nice on the wall above the bed.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Just for you, Joey.


DGreen
It could not be said any clearer. Why are all the Gods always in hiding while their children are suffering terribly? Makes one question the existence of any Gods, doesn't it. 
Look at Haiti, 5 years after the Earthquake and the people are still suffering. The country needs to be rebuild and the money is there and the people cannot find a job. No assistence from any God to help the Needy.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Obviously not a believer, so the quote is meaningless to those who do. He or she can choose to believe or not to believe, but as the saying goes, "There are no atheists in foxholes"


lovethelake
....meaningless?" I VERY much question your Christianity even more now than ever. You will need more than one God to forgive your hateful self. It is truly breathtaking to see what you think Christianity means. I have seen nothing Christian in your behavior. Shout as loud as you wish that you are Christian, that a Christian does not make.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD:
> 
> You are correct, I wasn't around for the Obamacare threads, but I can imagine. Funny how if one prophesy is found to be "true" the other 99 which were wrong are forgotten - or held out to still be valid - in the future.
> 
> ...


DGreen
I am blowing a Hallelujah on a French Horn. Hope that will do.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> The answer to that is yes!


At the top of page 61 you said "I will try to stop attacking anyone...."

Here you are attacking LTL when she was posting to someone else. You were in no way attacked, yet felt obliged to attack LTL indirectly. Once again, your words say one thing one day and something else the next. You can't get past the 24 hour period without going back on your word. Sheesh.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> It could not be said any clearer. Why are all the Gods always in hiding while their children are suffering terribly? Makes one question the existence of any Gods, doesn't it.
> Look at Haiti, 5 years after the Earthquake and the people are still suffering. The country needs to be rebuild and the money is there and the people cannot find a job. No interference from any God to help the Needy.


My answer is this: because there is no god.

Christians attribute these evils and suffering on man's "free will" and the ability of some to inflict grave suffering on others. Work of Satan, too.

How could horrible earthquakes, tsunami, hurricanes, epidemics and other disasters be caused by man's evil to his fellow man? Not possible. So...Christians then go to calling such things god's punishment for our collective sins. Yeah - all the innocent children, all the faithful, the good and the bad. How could anyone call that kind of god a loving one? How could anyone call that kind of god a "just" god? How could anyone call that kind of god a merciful god?

Too many can't accept the fact that the universe is a random place and sometimes there IS NO explanation.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> At the top of page 61 you said "I will try to stop attacking anyone...."
> 
> Here you are attacking LTL when she was posting to someone else. You were in no way attacked, yet felt obliged to attack LTL indirectly. Once again, your words say one thing one day and something else the next. You can't get past the 24 hour period without going back on your word. Sheesh.


I wondered how long it would be before you said your regular piece. I said I would not instigate unless I was attacked. I didn't instigate. Why don't you worry about what you say, and leave me alone. I am still allowed to speak my opinion. I will answer if and when I feel like it. I owe nothing to LTL.

YOu worry about what you say and I will look after what I say.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I wondered how long it would be before you said your regular piece. I said I would not instigate unless I was attacked. I didn't instigate. Why don't you worry about what you say, and leave me alone. I am still allowed to speak my opinion. I will answer if and when I feel like it. I owe nothing to LTL.
> 
> YOu worry about what you say and I will look after what I say.


You were NOT attacked but you DID instigate. You can answer any post if and when you like, never said you couldn't, however, don't promise something you have no intention of doing. I can see my "regular piece" bothers you so much because it is the truth.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> I am blowing a Hallelujah on a French Horn. Hope that will do.


Lovely, thanks!

Taking a cyber bow.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> You were NOT attacked but you DID instigate. You can answer any post if and when you like, never said you couldn't, however, don't promise something you have no intention of doing. I can see my "regular piece" bothers you so much because it is the truth.


How about a few words for lovethelake for disparaging me? No one was addressing her, yet she felt free to ridicule my beliefs. Or was that ok with you?

Just askin'.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Um...that was carved by a Jew in a concentration camp, a loooooong step down from a foxhole....


True. But then again, we do not know if that was carved at a time of their deepest despair, but later found their faith again. It is a very real snapshot of that moment in time, it does not mean that it was how they lived the rest of their life. So many people have survived 'Hell' on earth, but have become true believers.

What bothered me the most about the poster is how that person's total despair (in a situation I can't imagine), was used to slam believers. In my opinion, when you use someone's pain to hurt others, you diminish the person's despair and selfishly use it to for your own purpose.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> True. But then again, we do not know if that was carved at a time of their deepest despair, but later found their faith again. It is a very real snapshot of that moment in time, it does not mean that it was how they lived the rest of their life. So many people have survived 'Hell' on earth, but have become true believers.
> 
> What bothered me the most about the poster is how that person's total despair (in a situation I can't imagine), was used to slam believers. In my opinion, when you use someone's pain to hurt others, you diminish the person's despair and selfishly use it to for your own purpose.


You make some outlandish assumptions, LTL.

How does that post hurt anyone? Unless, of course, it hurts you to think.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> True. But then again, we do not know if that was carved at a time of their deepest despair, but later found their faith again. It is a very real snapshot of that moment in time, it does not mean that it was how they lived the rest of their life. So many people have survived 'Hell' on earth, but have become true believers.
> 
> What bothered me the most about the poster is how that person's total despair (in a situation I can't imagine), was used to slam believers. In my opinion, when you use someone's pain to hurt others, you diminish the person's despair and selfishly use it to for your own purpose.


No, you don't know when that was carved, but you also do not know whether that person survived that hell on earth at all and minimizes the magnitude of the unspeakable horror of the Holocaust. You make the assumption that that person lived, which is very, very unlikely. So, how about your god that allowed the Holocaust? How do you reconcile a loving, merciful, just god with such a thing?

When you say the poster - in this case me - suffers from total despair. On what do you base such a statement?

I can only assume that you think all atheists MUST be despondent by definition, but the reality is atheists are probably much happier and fulfilled in life than most deists. You see, we are not saddled with the burden of believing that we are fundamentally bad, that we are hopelessly lost in sin and that we are in need of redemption. I don't need to beg forgiveness from a-god and I don't fear that I am in danger of eternal punishment unless I live in constant fear of some invisible power that is all-seeing, all-knowing and all-judging. I have no problem understanding and accepting that this life is it - there is no more so I make the best of it every day.

I am free to live my life in a moral, ethical, satisfying way. If I need to ask forgiveness, I can go to the real, living, breathing person I have offended and communicate directly. I don't need to cower in fear of a-god.

As for hurting others, your reveal your similarity to muslim jihadists, as if to say your god can withstand no questioning, no criticism, no denials. I didn't slam anyone, LTL. The photo was a statement; it was, and is, thought provoking but not insulting. Why is it that joey and any other christian can post their beliefs, replete with scriptural verses, but not me?

No one (in this country, at least) restricts your ability to pray, to attend the church of your choice, to wear a cross, to teach your children your religion, or to write or speak about your beliefs. So long as you don't try to impose your beliefs on others, you are unrestricted. I have the same right to deny the existence of god. Is your faith so weak you can't accept the fact that someone else does not? I do not believe in god. Any god. I don't believe in spirits, angels, superstitions or prophesy. My feet are firmly planted in reality and that is not going to change. I, and thousands or millions like me, have given the matter of religion a great deal of thought. I have searched my soul and I have engaged in critical thought and the idea of a-god comes up far short of anything I could ever believe in.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Just to let you know I backed away for a few days to finish readying for my KP Workshop beginning on January 20. But have been peripherally following some of the conversation.

I am thrilled to post these links to my first formally written knitting pattern which was quite a learning challenge requiring much concentration. So for those interested (and you are) here is the KP link:

http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-312314-1.html#6678029

or if you prefer to go directly thru Ravelry at:

http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/toddler-miter-square-sweater

Use the discount coupon code: Miter Square Sweater.

The discount will be available thru January 26, 2015


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

DGreen said:


> No, you don't know when that was carved, but you also do not know whether that person survived that hell on earth at all and minimizes the magnitude of the unspeakable horror of the Holocaust. You make the assumption that that person lived, which is very, very unlikely. So, how about your god that allowed the Holocaust? How do you reconcile a loving, merciful, just god with such a thing?
> 
> When you say the poster - in this case me - suffers from total despair. On what do you base such a statement?
> 
> ...


So true, Green. It boggles me that the so-called Christians of the D and P thread condemn those Muslims who grow angry when the prophet Muhammad is portrayed in undignified ways. Such hypocrisy! They themselves blew a gasket when less-than-flattering images of the Christian God and Jesus were posted on D and P...compared it to a gang rape, moaned that they'd never get over the hurt and trauma, and tried to bounce the posters by reporting the images to Admin.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> How sad! You are so determined that there is no God, that you want everyone else to believe the same. You have stated you are a member of "Freedom from Religion." That group is determined to remove any trace of Christianity from displays or history. Why are you, as a member of that group, so afraid of a 60 year old cross as a war memorial, on a hill in the middle of nowhere? Or a picture of two children with hands together in front of a flag? Why is the sight of anything Christian so offensive, you do not anyone to see it?
> 
> If you *truly* believe there is no God, you would leave everyone else to their "foolishness," and not try to take away their belief in God and their way of practicing their belief. In the back of your mind, are you afraid there really is God?


We have been over this before. Keep your displays on private property and there is no problem. It's called separation of church and state. You cannot display religious propaganda in or on publicly-owned spaces.

I'm not trying to convince you to give up your beliefs. Where do you get such an idea?

You are insulting when you suggest I am afraid of you being right about god. I'm not. I just object to having your beliefs considered the only ones. Why does that bother YOU? Are you afraid I'm right?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> So true, Green. It boggles me that the so-called Christians of the D and P thread condemn those Muslims who grow angry when the prophet Muhammad is portrayed in undignified ways. Such hypocrisy! They themselves blew a gasket when less-than-flattering images of the Christian God and Jesus were posted on D and P...compared it to a gang rape, moaned that they'd never get over the hurt and trauma, and tried to bounce the posters by reporting the images to Admin.


And, similar to the jihadists, some posters are total cowards. Note that joesomma did another of her "hit and run" posts. I have yet to see any of the more extreme believers in the bible come up with any response - not even a lame one - to legitimate questions. Questions that might require something other than regurgitating bible verses.

Such as - where they get their knowledge of others' innermost thoughts, fears or concerns.

Such as - how their god can be loving, just, or powerful in the face of things like the Holocaust - or events going on in Syria, where they are crucifying Christians. Or Paris. Or Africa with Boko Haram.

Such as - how they can rationalize their imaginary "war on Christianity" when all evidence and reason proves they have almost absolute freedom to practice religion and are even given preferential treatment because they are the majority (and refuse to honor minority rights).

Such as - how can they logically say the constitution does NOT guarantee freedom from religion.

They just run away. Presumably hammering out pm's to their like-minded deists on D&P and crying because their sweet jesus has been maligned by horrible people who have simply not given Christianity enough thought. (If they can assume I am a miserable, despondent person, I can make wild assumptions, too).


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> If you are right, there will be no afterlife. If I am right, I will go to heaven and you will go to hell. Have you considered that? I have nothing to fear.


What makes you think I have not heard of heaven and hell?

Why don't you answer my question?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> If you are right, there will be no afterlife. If I am right, I will go to heaven and you will go to hell. Have you considered that? I have nothing to fear.


And what makes you think that I have not given as much thought to my beliefs as you have? Or probably more, since you believe the bible without question.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> If you are right, there will be no afterlife. If I am right, I will go to heaven and you will go to hell. Have you considered that? I have nothing to fear.


No doubt...that line of reasoning is called Pascal's Wager and dates back centuries. Here it is in a nutshell (courtesy of Wikipedia):

"The wager uses the following logic (excerpts from Pensées, part III, §233):

1. God is, or God is not. Reason cannot decide between the two alternatives.

2. A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up.
You must wager (it is not optional).

3. Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.

4. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.

5. But some cannot believe. They should then 'at least learn your inability to believe...' and 'Endeavour then to convince' themselves.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> No doubt...that line of reasoning is called Pascal's Wager and dates back centuries. Here it is in a nutshell (courtesy of Wikipedia):
> 
> "The wager uses the following logic (excerpts from Pensées, part III, §233):
> 
> ...


I consider Pascal to be intellectually bankrupt. But I have no problem believing joey and those like her (extreme, literal - not all christians) have no need to endeavor to convince themselves. They are totally convinced.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> No, you don't know when that was carved, but you also do not know whether that person survived that hell on earth at all and minimizes the magnitude of the unspeakable horror of the Holocaust. You make the assumption that that person lived, which is very, very unlikely. So, how about your god that allowed the Holocaust? How do you reconcile a loving, merciful, just god with such a thing?
> 
> When you say the poster - in this case me - suffers from total despair. On what do you base such a statement?
> 
> ...


Right on. Except there are some things in life that happen inexplicably but it has nothing to do with organized religions. And how many gods have come and gone? Today's god, tomorrow' s myth.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> At the top of page 61 you said "I will try to stop attacking anyone...."
> 
> Here you are attacking LTL when she was posting to someone else. You were in no way attacked, yet felt obliged to attack LTL indirectly. Once again, your words say one thing one day and something else the next. You can't get past the 24 hour period without going back on your word. Sheesh.


Solo, this isn't a message just for you. I'm using what you've said as a springboard for what I want to say.

There's no such thing as posting solely to someone else here. This is a public place and people can and do respond to whatever is posted.

Once again, we are talking about how people behave here. Isn't this the millionth time we've discussed this? Has it ever done any good or made any noticeable difference? Isn't there a definition of insanity that says if you do the same thing over and over again and nothing changes then that's insane?

I don't think any of us is actually insane, but there certainly are a bunch of people here who are very stubborn. Many of us confuse beliefs and opinions with facts. It doesn't do anyone any good. It sure would be nice if everyone dropped their daggers and tried to remember that people believe a lot of different things, and not all of them are based on fact.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Duplicate post.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

DGreen said:


> We have been over this before. Keep your displays on private property and there is no problem. It's called separation of church and state. You cannot display religious propaganda in or on publicly-owned spaces.
> 
> I'm not trying to convince you to give up your beliefs. Where do you get such an idea?
> 
> You are insulting when you suggest I am afraid of you being right about god. I'm not. I just object to having your beliefs considered the only ones. Why does that bother YOU? Are you afraid I'm right?


And ever time some politico ends a speech with "God bless America" it's unconstitutional. Once we start thinking about separation of church and state, and freedom of and from religion, we ought to take that discussion right down to the smallest things that reality covers for each and every American.

As you say "keep your displays on private property". Why in the world does anyone think they can do otherwise?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Such as - where they get their knowledge of others' innermost thoughts, fears or concerns.

Such as - how their god can be loving, just, or powerful in the face of things like the Holocaust - or events going on in Syria, where they are crucifying Christians. Or Paris. Or Africa with Boko Haram.

Such as - how they can rationalize their imaginary "war on Christianity" when all evidence and reason proves they have almost absolute freedom to practice religion and are even given preferential treatment because they are the majority (and refuse to honor minority rights).

Such as - how can they logically say the constitution does NOT guarantee freedom from religion.

They just run away. Presumably hammering out pm's to their like-minded deists on D&P and crying because their sweet jesus has been maligned by horrible people who have simply not given Christianity enough thought. (If they can assume I am a miserable, despondent person, I can make wild assumptions, too).


joeysomma said:


> This is what it says in the Constitution regarding religion: _ "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"_ nothing about freedom from religion.
> 
> The history in the Old Testament has shown that God has punished his chosen people, Israel, when they disobeyed Him, When they turned to idols, when they did not conquer a land as they were told, (the 40 years in the wilderness). Now, the majority of the people on the earth mock God in some form or another. The true Christian know that God's promise is not a peaceful life on this earth, but it is in Heaven. The bad things that are happening on earth is because of Satan. He is the ruler of the earth. Only those who have accepted Jesus as their personal Savior will escape Satan's rule.
> 
> There is a war on Christians. There have been to many taken to court when they wanted to exercise their Religious beliefs. The latest one, the courts are threatening to take away everything she owns, because of her belief.


The last one, first. You have inflicted this kind of story on us before; I assume it deals with a person who was violating the civil rights of homosexual customers. It was her choice to illegally discriminate. If your religious beliefs won't allow you to follow the law, then you should go out of business. It's really quite simple. It would be just as true if a business refused to serve blacks or Jews. Against the law. Comply or pay the penalty. That person can still go to church, wear a cross, pray, preach, teach their children of their beliefs. No one at no time is being forced to change their religion, no one is forbidden to pray, preach or teach. War? It is that Christian who is at war with the constitution and is seeking preferential treatment - because Jesus. Besides, millions of Christians follow the law every hour of every day without the need to discriminate illegally. How could this isolated incident (or even a hundred such examples) possibly be characterized as a war that threatens to take your religion away? (Hint: war kills people, like religions do).

So, god punished millions and millions of people in the 1940's for sins their ancestors supposedly committed thousands of years prior? (And the sins were not committed by millions - kinda skewed there, too). Not good enough, joey. This violates the Christian claim that god is just, merciful, forgiving and loving. If your rationale is true and god was punishing the Jews by means of Hitler, then that is all the more reason to reject him - and vehemently so because that is a god that makes no sense and doesn't behave morally. Besides, you left out the gypsies, disabled and thousands of others Hitler targeted. Why were they punished? Or is god NOT all powerful and they just sort of got caught up and were murdered by accident? Oops?

Let's get down to some REAL logic regarding the constitution. If congress shall pass no law establishing a religion, there can be no "state sanctioned" religion. Everyone is therefore free to have their own beliefs. Government will STAY OUT OF RELIGION. Period. By what stretch of logic can you possibly say that I DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to reject religion??? I want logic, not crap. It may be foreign to your literal way of thinking, but just because the exact words "freedom from religion" do not appear in the constitution, the concept is clearly there and has been upheld repeatedly by the courts. If you deny my right to NOT be religious, then please show me precisely where in the constitution or in any US law that it says I must observe a religion?

The bad things that are happening in the world are because of Satan? A supposed "being" created by god - but you are saying god can't control this being, which a loving and merciful god would do. Thereby making god NOT all powerful. Unless, of course, god USES Satan and ALLOWS Satan to do evil to accomplish god's own wishes. Remember - you also claim god has a plan for all of us, so the second argument appears to be the right one. Please refer to previous observation about how god is just, loving, forgiving and merciful. There is no possible stretch of logic where both claims can make sense or be true.

Which leaves one more little issue. You did not answer the question about how you know my thoughts, fears or concerns. Exactly HOW can you know this, joey? Perhaps now would be a good time to admit the truth on that matter - you're spewing unfounded nonsense and you can't rationally defend claiming I'm fearful or anything else about what or how I think.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> And ever time some politico ends a speech with "God bless America" it's unconstitutional. Once we start thinking about separation of church and state, and freedom of and from religion, we ought to take that discussion right down to the smallest things that reality covers for each and every American.
> 
> As you say "keep your displays on private property". Why in the world does anyone think they can do otherwise?


Because they've been allowed to violate separation of church and state for so long they have come to believe it is their "right" to do so.

And...because the right-wing extremists find it useful to inflame the fundamental Christians. It's a tactic the Koch's have found extremely useful, along with abortion, welfare, and other "wedge" issues.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Well said! :thumbup:



DGreen said:


> Such as - where they get their knowledge of others' innermost thoughts, fears or concerns.
> 
> Such as - how their god can be loving, just, or powerful in the face of things like the Holocaust - or events going on in Syria, where they are crucifying Christians. Or Paris. Or Africa with Boko Haram.
> 
> ...


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> There is no separation of Church and State, in the Constitution. When does a statement written in a letter more than 100 years old become a part of the Constitution? The answer is when some liberal judges decide it should be.
> 
> Remember the First Amendment: "_Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech..._ Anyone, anywhere, anytime can say* "God Bless America."*


There is no logic in your statement and you did not answer the question. You just keep repeating the same old same old over and over.

Separation of church and state is an idea, a concept, a concise way of expressing that idea and concept. Do you deny the concept as well as the words?? Please be honest.

You can say god bless anything and I don't give a rat's a** about it. What you can't do is make any laws forcing me to say it and you can't put a sign over the courthouse door saying it. You can't erect that on public property. Your lawn? Go for it. Your church? Go for it. Why do you deny that?


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> This is what it says in the Constitution regarding religion: _ "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"_ nothing about freedom from religion.
> 
> The history in the Old Testament has shown that God has punished his chosen people, Israel, when they disobeyed Him, When they turned to idols, when they did not conquer a land as they were told, (the 40 years in the wilderness). Now, the majority of the people on the earth mock God in some form or another. The true Christian know that God's promise is not a peaceful life on this earth, but it is in Heaven. The bad things that are happening on earth is because of Satan. He is the ruler of the earth. Only those who have accepted Jesus as their personal Savior will escape Satan's rule.
> 
> There is a war on Christians. There have been to many taken to court when they wanted to exercise their Religious beliefs. The latest one, the courts are threatening to take away everything she owns, because of her belief.


Every time the Constitution says one can swear an oath or make an attestation, that gives us freedom from religion. Oaths are sworn on the Bible. An attestation is made on a person's individual intention to abide by whatever they are swearing to.

Even though I could swear on the Bible, I won't do it. I prefer to keep church and state as separate as possible. I want to exercise my freedom from religion. I always make attestations instead. "Will you swear by the Bible? I will not said Fox* for the truth is as holy as the Book to me."

*George Fox (September 1624  13 January 1691) was an English Dissenter and a founder of the Religious Society of Friends, commonly known as the Quakers or Friends. By refusing to swear [oaths], he felt that he could bear witness to the value of truth in everyday life, as well as to God, who he associated with truth and the inner light.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> > Every time the Constitution says one can swear an oath or make an attestation, that gives us freedom from religion. Oaths are sworn on the Bible. An attestation is made on a person's individual intention to abide by whatever they are swearing to.
> >
> > Even though I could swear on the Bible, I won't do it. I prefer to keep church and state as separate as possible. I want to exercise my freedom from religion. I always make attestations instead. "Will you swear by the Bible? I will not said Fox* for the truth is as holy as the Book to me."
> >
> ...


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Yes I did say that, as KPG even told us that Lisa was wrong' Lisa again mention it and I went on interent and found a Wombat in the Philppines who had a twin sister in Australia Whose internet name was Wombat no more. I again went and looked it up. I was angry for the name calling and posted what I beleived, was what I thought. Should I have done it no no no. Do I owe you an apology yes and I will post it I was wrong. I have no excuse for doing that no matter how I felt. Why did I do it on DP because some where on there attacking again. I did not want to go on any site other then DP as it would lead to more problems, and I used angry to get even that is still no excuse for doing it. I am sorry I judge you in angry. As I have said before I did it in angry and there is no excuse for it. I am sorry for hurting you and I do mean it and I do apolozie for hurting you.


Wombatnomore. I did not read what I had written on Jan 9 and apologize to you.

I posted wombatnomore is a women, wombat is a man. I went back today for a reason I believe God sent me to see what I meant. Yes Lisa did have it right. I did say what I said and because of what I thought I had said wrong without reading it. I said when would the Lib's get it right. I really did not read what I had posted. I now know when I get angry I should read what I posted and not assume I did anything wrong. I only mention the Libs( and should not have spelt it that way either) had brought it up more then once that you were a man.

I am not here to accuse anyone other then myself for not reading what I posted in angry. I should be apologizing to you ladies for even bringing it up about you saying that Wombatnomore was a man.

So I do apologize to all of you for doing that. I am glad for once that I did go back and read what I posted. But wombatnomore I do not need you to forgive me as I did not say you were a man.

Ending it all now. Like I have said to the rest of you I do owe you an apology.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> likely before he was put in the ovens. Unbelievably sad.
> 
> It speaks volumns


Prove it!

You have no idea if your knee jerk comment is true or not. It may have been from a survivor that went on to do great things.

Symbolism over substance, classic


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> You were NOT attacked but you DID instigate. You can answer any post if and when you like, never said you couldn't, however, don't promise something you have no intention of doing. I can see my "regular piece" bothers you so much because it is the truth.


Not surprised at that she once again went back on her word aka lied. But thank you for pointing it out, for all to see again. Pathetic, don't you think?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I believe you are fearful because you want to remove any reference to Christianity from the public sphere. If you were not fearful, you would not care if someone placed a cross on public land in the middle of nowhere. Do You think that if you do not see a cross it will not exist?
> 
> I have said that Satan rules this world. You can blame him for the holocaust and all of the other horrible things happening in this world. God did send his Son, Jesus, as a Savior for individuals who CHOOSE to believe in Him. Satan is ruling a "Season." At the appointed time, God will throw Satan and all of his followers into the "Lake of Fire."
> 
> ...


YOU blamed Satan for the Holocaust. Still no justification for how this is merciful or loving, not to mention fair or just. You are welcome to worship such a malevolent god, but I reject the entire idea of your god or any other gods. I have no fear whatever, because I don't believe in your lake of fire. You can have it along with your bible, since it enables you to sail through life with easy, pat answers. You have not offered any answers, you just repeated the same old thing you have stated so many times.

Homosexuals are, indeed, born that way. Your statements about them are based on your religion, nothing more. You can't possibly know what a homosexual knows about his state of being, so your statements are irrational and somewhat bigoted. Title VII notwithstanding, they deserve protection from people like you. You see, you only have an opinion - they know.

Maybe you can answer this question. Let's say you had a student in your chemistry class who turned in a test paper with the answer to every question completed, but did not show his calculations. Would you give that student full credit for any correct answers? Or would you suspect him of cheating and either demand to see his calculations or give that student a failing grade? The purpose of the test, as you know, is not whether the student comes up with an answer, but for the student to demonstrate his grasp of the concepts you taught and his ability to employ those concepts to arrive at the correct answer. So, which would it be?

You see, all you have given is pat answers; you have not demonstrated in any way that you have thought through the reasons for your belief. It is as though you have been cheating by copying the "answers" from your neighbor's paper and have not exercised your own mind regarding the hard questions. I believe that kind of faith is shallow and fragile.

Of course, you can believe in unicorns, UFO's, chemtrails and your illusion that homosexuals, bisexuals and transgender people are making a choice. You can deny that no matter how your "god" made them, they are entitled to civil rights like everyone else. You can even believe that unless you deny their right to happiness you will incur the wrath of your meanspirited god. I just don't believe you have explored the spirit of your belief because if you had, you might have a more open and generous attitude toward those who believe differently.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> Prove it!
> 
> You have no idea if your knee jerk comment is true or not. It may have been from a survivor that went on to do great things.
> 
> Symbolism over substance, classic


How about YOU prove it? What kind of god do you have that he needs the likes of you to defend him?


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Because they've been allowed to violate separation of church and state for so long they have come to believe it is their "right" to do so.
> 
> And...because the right-wing extremists find it useful to inflame the fundamental Christians. It's a tactic the Koch's have found extremely useful, along with abortion, welfare, and other "wedge" issues.


Indeed, separation of church and state and freedom from religion are violated minute after minute. Every time every President has ended a speech with "God bless America", I cringe. I want to chain myself to the White House fence. I want to start a legal action that would take separation of church and state all the way to the Supreme Court. The strict constructionists would find it very hard to rule against Constitutional imperatives.

Using hot-button issues is a great way to practice good old "divide and conquer". My only excuse is that I have major responsibilities at home leaving me with little time to do much of anything else. Isn't it way past time for younger generations to take up this cause as well as may others? Rioting and vandalism don't count.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Indeed, separation of church and state and freedom from religion are violated minute after minute. Every time every President has ended a speech with "God bless America", I cringe. I want to chain myself to the White House fence. I want to start a legal action that would take separation of church and state all the way to the Supreme Court. The strict constructionists would find it very hard to rule against Constitutional imperatives.
> 
> Using hot-button issues is a great way to practice good old "divide and conquer". My only excuse is that I have major responsibilities at home leaving me with little time to do much of anything else. Isn't it way past time for younger generations to take up this cause as well as may others? Rioting and vandalism don't count.


I agree - except the President has the right to say "god bless America" like everyone else. (I also flinch when I hear it.)

The young are too busy communicating on their cellphones with their thumbs to be bothered.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I believe you are fearful because you want to remove any reference to Christianity from the public sphere. If you were not fearful, you would not care if someone placed a cross on public land in the middle of nowhere.


And one could say the same for you. It's safe to assume you don't hold to the tenets of Islam, but you'd have six fits if portions of the Koran were posted in a country courthouse, or someone erected the star and crescent on public land. Why? Is it because you're afraid of Allah's judgement?


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

DGreen said:


> How about a few words for lovethelake for disparaging me? No one was addressing her, yet she felt free to ridicule my beliefs. Or was that ok with you?
> 
> Just askin'.


You do your fair share of attacking others, as do I, so I doubt very much that LTL's post bothered you in the least . LTL did not state that she was not going to attack anyone, Designer did. Designer is the one that pretends to be so innocent and gets attacked for no reason. Designer didn't make it beyond a day before she made another one of her snarky comments. I will repeat what I have said in the past, Designer's words say one thing and her actions another.

Just sayin'.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> And one could say the same for you. It's safe to assume you don't hold to the tenets of Islam, but you'd have six fits if portions of the Koran were posted in a country courthouse, or someone erected the star and crescent on public land. Why? Is it because you're afraid of Allah's judgement?


Good point! Christians only want THEIR message to be heard. They get apoplectic when atheists demand equal space on the courthouse lawn and scream "this is an attack!"


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> You do your fair share of attacking others, as do I, so I doubt very much that LTL's post bothered you in the least . LTL did not state that she was not going to attack anyone, Designer did. Designer is the one that pretends to be so innocent and gets attacked for no reason. Designer didn't make it beyond a day before she made another one of her snarky comments. I will repeat what I have said in the past, Designer's words say one thing and her actions another.
> 
> Just sayin'.


LTL's posts always bother me. I just let it go most of the time.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Good point! Christians only want THEIR message to be heard. They get apoplectic when atheists demand equal space on the courthouse lawn and scream "this is an attack!"


Exactly, Green. These so-called Christians want only one religion to be practiced: theirs.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

DGreen said:


> I agree - except the President has the right to say "god bless America" like everyone else. (I also flinch when I hear it.)
> 
> The young are too busy communicating on their cellphones with their thumbs to be bothered.


The President does not have the right to say "God Bless America" in his official capacity. He is not keeping church and state separate nor is he maintaining our right to freedom from religion when he does so. He's making a Christianity-based statement. There shouldn't be a national Christmas tree, the White House should only have Christmas decorations in the Presidential residence, and I could go on and on.

The short version of what I have to say is that once we begin to look at ways in which the separation of church and state isn't absolutely complete, and when our freedom from religion isn't absolutely always given us, we haven't taken the discussion all the way. Even the tiny details that seem so harmless have to be addressed. I'm not being unreasonably picky for no good reason. Freedom from religion and separation of church and state are innately picky concepts, but we forget that all too often.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> How sad! You are so determined that there is no God, that you want everyone else to believe the same. You have stated you are a member of "Freedom from Religion." That group is determined to remove any trace of Christianity from displays or history. Why are you, as a member of that group, so afraid of a 60 year old cross as a war memorial, on a hill in the middle of nowhere? Or a picture of two children with hands together in front of a flag? Why is the sight of anything Christian so offensive, you do not anyone to see it?
> 
> If you *truly* believe there is no God, you would leave everyone else to their "foolishness," and not try to take away their belief in God and their way of practicing their belief. In the back of your mind, are you afraid there really is God?


Joey, your last paragraph a good description of yourself. If a person doesn't believe in god then let it be. Trying to shove bible verses down their throats won't change their beliefs.
I don't see D trying to take away anyone's beliefs, she is simply stating hers. 
Nobody is trying to take your God away from you. You are free to practice your religion. If you felt the urge to fall down on your knees and start praying in the middle of a mall, you could and do so legally.
So what is the point you are trying to make ? How are your religious rights being taken away from you personally?
As far as children standing in front of the flag with their hands together, I always said the pledge with my hand over my heart. You are confusing the pledge and prayer.
This country could never have one religion involved in governing. We are not and never will be a theocracy. Our constitution guarantees that.
If you want prayer in school, then send the kids to a private school where there is prayer. In a public school half of the day would be spent praying considering all of the different religions of the class. 
Just something to think about.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> The President does not have the right to say "God Bless America" in his official capacity. He is not keeping church and state separate nor is he maintaining our right to freedomb from religion when he does so. He's making a Christianity-based statement. There shouldn't be a national Christmas tree, the White House should only have Christmas decorations in the Presidential residence, and I could go on and on.
> 
> The short version of what I have to say is that once we begin to look at ways in which the separation of church and state isn't absolutely complete, and when our freedom from religion isn't absolutely always given us, we haven't taken the discussion all the way. Even the tiny details that seem so harmless have to be addressed. I'm not being unreasonably picky for no good reason. Freedom from religion and separation of church and state are innately picky concepts, but we forget that all too often.


After some thought, I have to agree with you.

We are immersed in god-talk. It's everywhere, everyday, in every sphere of life. Christians are like the fish who has no awareness that he's wet.

We who don't believe are so accustomed to the encroachment of religion into government that we only notice when it becomes egregious.

Some christians think that the statement "I don't believe in god" is an attack; observe the outrage expressed by LTL over my photo post that was in no way an attack. It was a statement. They feel THEY can make statements and even call their beliefs actual facts with impunity.

An attack would look more like:

"You are stupid to believe that"
"All churches should be burned to the ground"
"All Christians should be deported"
"Wearing a cross proves you are a bigot"
"Atheists know nothing about the bible or religion"
"You will go to hell if you don't believe in Jesus"

There is a difference, but of course, such nuances are lost on some.

Time to call them out. Thanks for the reminder.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Joey, your last paragraph a good description of yourself. If a person doesn't believe in god then let it be. Trying to shove bible verses down their throats won't change their beliefs.
> I don't see D trying to take away anyone's beliefs, she is simply stating hers.
> Nobody is trying to take your God away from you. You are free to practice your religion. If you felt the urge to fall down on your knees and start praying in the middle of a mall, you could and do so legally.
> So what is the point you are trying to make ? How are your religious rights being taken away from you personally?
> ...


Patty, the children with folded hands refers to a picture that was hung in a school showing two children, hands folded, obviously praying, with a flag in the background.

This was a violation of the constitution because

1. It was an obvious depiction of a Christian way of praying
2. It was an undeniable endorsement of prayer
3. It was hung in a school, where children are supposed to accept what teachers tell them
4. It could have created a situation where those of other faiths or no faiths could be harassed and ridiculed
5. It belonged in a church, NOT a school! No educational purpose other than promotion of Christian belief in prayer.
6. It was hung in a tax-supported institution, which is off-limits to promotions of religion


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

DGreen said:


> After some thought, I have to agree with you.
> 
> We are immersed in god-talk. It's everywhere, everyday, in every sphere of life. Christians are like the fish who has no awareness that he's wet.
> 
> ...


A Jewish friend of mine took her employer to court for printing "Merry Christmas" on the employees' paychecks. She won. I'm Catholic and even I don't want to be subjected to public displays of Christianity. Keep religion where it belongs, in your heart, in your soul, in your home, in your church, temple, synagogue, etc.

Religious people who persist in attacking people of other faiths aren't practicing their own very well. Practicing a religion take a lot of work. After I attend to my personal devotions I don't have much time to attack anyone. Too bad others don't feel the same.

IMO, fundamentalism is the dark side of any religion you care to name, including none at all. The religious wars we're seeing now leave me despairing about human nature. To me "in my house are many mansions" means there's room for everyone in Heaven. We could be practicing for that instead of seeing anything anyone of us believes is superior to what someone else may believe. Heck, we could see this world as a home with many mansions. A lot more people would still be alive if we did.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> A Jewish friend of mine took her employer to court for printing "Merry Christmas" on the employees' paychecks. She won. I'm Catholic and even I don't want to be subjected to public displays of Christianity. Keep religion where it belongs, in your heart, in your soul, in your home, in your church, temple, synagogue, etc.
> 
> Religious people who persist in attacking people of other faiths aren't practicing their own very well. Practicing a religion take a lot of work. After I attend to my personal devotions I don't have much time to attack anyone. Too bad others don't feel the same.
> 
> IMO, fundamentalism is the dark side of any religion you care to name, including none at all. The religious wars we're seeing now leave me despairing about human nature. To me "in my house are many mansions" means there's room for everyone in Heaven. We could be practicing for that instead of seeing anything anyone of us believes is superior to what someone else may believe. Heck, we could see this world as a home with many mansions. A lot more people would still be alive if we did.


Bravo, Maid. Well said--I agree with you 100%.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I will answer your question about the Chemistry test. I will depend upon the question and the directions. If the directions state show the 3 steps in finding your answer. they would only get 1 of 3 for just the correct answer.
> 
> If it was a Math class, it would be different. If the directions say show your work, the work is the important part, not the answer. The importance of Math beside the answer is learning how to solve a problem. First to know the information given, then what are you looking for, then the important part is how you go about solving it. If a student learns how to put the steps on paper to solve easy problems. They will know how to go about solving more difficult problems. This is what most people miss about the importance of Math.
> 
> You did not answer my question about the bisexuals. Does the government give them protection if they are acting as a homosexual, but then are they the same as anyone else when they are acting as a heterosexual?


You are splitting hairs regarding the bisexual; it isn't necessary to make it so complicated. Sexual orientation is immaterial.

Once again, you miss the point about the chemistry test. I suspect it is due to your disturbingly literal view of the world.

In this instance, I was taking the role of the one giving the test and you failed miserably. You know the answer but you don't have a clue how you got there except "the bible." You have no basis in logic to defend even the most obvious failures and contradictions contained in your beliefs about your god. You do not question on a meaningful level. Instead, you regurgitate what you have been taught and what you accepted as a child of 8. I think that kind of faith is shallow, superficial and immature.

And you have the gall to imply that I have not given religious belief enough consideration or thought it through. You apparently don't have enough insight to recognize that as the insult it is.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I will not be hurt by the posting of a star and crescent. But in no way should their laws take precedence over the Constitution.
> 
> I will NEVER be judged by allah.


Then why should Christian beliefs take precedence over the Constitution? What possible difference do you see?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Then should Islam be taught in Public School? Should students be asked to write the tenets of Islam and be denied the Ten Commandments?


I actually have no problem with religion being studied in schools in a historical context, but only if every religion gets its fair share of air time--Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Wiccism (or however you say it), etc. And, as some Christians insist that atheism is a religion, one might have include that one as well (much to the conservatives' horror, of course).


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Then should Islam be taught in Public School? Should students be asked to write the tenets of Islam and be denied the Ten Commandments?


No. No religious subjects should not be taught in public schools. Why did you ask that question? In my post that you replied to I said that religion should be taught to those who want it in private schools or parochial schools.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Saying Merry Christmas is a recognition of a Federal Holiday. Would your Jewish friend have accepted "Merry Christmas" and "Happy Hanukah" on the check? Did she refuse holiday pay if it was offered? Did she volunteer to work on Christmas so those who do believe in Christmas could have off?


Your questions have no bearing whatever on anything.

As for holiday pay, I can comment as a payroll professional. If employees are given X number of holidays, EVERY employee gets the same number of holidays and the same paid hours whether they are Christian or not. Why would a Jew refuse holiday pay if everyone else got paid for a day off? If a Jewish person volunteered to work Christmas, that person would be absolutely entitled to double pay (and double time and a half if over 40 hours). One would also have to ask, do the Christians offer to stand in for the Jewish worker who would like to have a day off for Yom Kippur? If so, good for them.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> I actually have no problem with religion being studied in schools in a historical context, but only if every religion gets its fair share of air time--Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Wiccism (or however you say it), etc. And, as some Christians insist that atheism is a religion, one might have include that one as well (much to the conservatives' horror, of course).


It gets sticky, though, if the teacher has a strong bias. Can't monitor every class. I think comparative religion should only be taught at college level and then only as an elective.

Atheism is not a religion, no matter what Christians say. A single sentence would cover it. "Atheists don't believe any of this."


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> No. No religious subjects should not be taught in public schools. Why did you ask that question? In my post that you replied to I said that religion should be taught to those who want it in private schools or parochial schools.


In Arizona, taxpayer funds support religious education by means of tax credits (which are directly offset by reducing public education funds). Shocking, horrifying and WRONG.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> There are no contradictions or failures in my God or the Bible. The only thing I KNEW when I was 8 was that I was a sinner and needed forgiveness. I have read and studied the Bible for more than 60 years and I am still learning. I will NEVER know it all.
> 
> From the Christmas story: Luke 2:7 (NKJV) _ And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in *swaddling cloths*, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn._
> The swaddling cloths were burial cloths, they carried with them so if someone on the journey died, they could prepare the body for the return trip. Makes perfect sense, since Jesus would be the one who would die for our sins. This fact was mentioned by someone on KP in December.


What possible sins could an 8 year old commit ? You were told that you were a sinner and believed it.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> There are no contradictions or failures in my God or the Bible. The only thing I KNEW when I was 8 was that I was a sinner and needed forgiveness. I have read and studied the Bible for more than 60 years and I am still learning. I will NEVER know it all.
> 
> From the Christmas story: Luke 2:7 (NKJV) _ And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in *swaddling cloths*, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn._
> The swaddling cloths were burial cloths, they carried with them so if someone on the journey died, they could prepare the body for the return trip. Makes perfect sense, since Jesus would be the one who would die for our sins. This fact was mentioned by someone on KP in December.


I didn't say anything about contradictions in the bible. I'm talking about the contradictions contained in the very concept and characterization of your god. Evidently the challenge was too great for you.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> So true, Green. It boggles me that the so-called Christians of the D and P thread condemn those Muslims who grow angry when the prophet Muhammad is portrayed in undignified ways. Such hypocrisy! They themselves blew a gasket when less-than-flattering images of the Christian God and Jesus were posted on D and P...compared it to a gang rape, moaned that they'd never get over the hurt and trauma, and tried to bounce the posters by reporting the images to Admin.


So you got that connection - all of them saying _je suis Charlie_ when they're just the opposite.

I believe "fantods" is the best way to describe what happened to them.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> So you got that connection - all of them saying _je suis Charlie_ when they're just the opposite.
> 
> I believe "fantods" is the best way to describe what happened to them.


I had to look up the word - I like it.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Lying, disobeying my parents, hitting my sisters, refusing to go to school and many, many, more.


Very menial actions typical of any 8 year old.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Please tell me why Atheists want to be chaplains in the Military, if it is not a Religion?


You've got the "chaplain" part skewed.

What makes you think atheists are not entitled to counseling in such a situation without insisting they have a religion?

One more time. You do NOT know what you are talking about. Atheism is NOT a religion any more than NOT playing golf is a hobby. Kindly defer to the experts because you are making a fool of yourself on this point.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Since there are* none* I have no idea of what you are referring to.


My point exactly. Which tells me you have never given your religion any deep thought or consideration. Superficial, shallow and immature.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Saying Merry Christmas is a recognition of a Federal Holiday. Would your Jewish friend have accepted "Merry Christmas" and "Happy Hanukah" on the check? Did she refuse holiday pay if it was offered? Did she volunteer to work on Christmas so those who do believe in Christmas could have off?


The fact that Christmas is a federal holiday is beside the point. Labor Day is a holiday, too, and not all the folks who enjoy it labor. Also, employers accommodate the religious celebrations of people of other faiths, and pay them according to the law.

No, my friend wouldn't have been happy if "Happy Hanukah" had been printed on her pay check. That's still a violation of both the concept of separation of church and state, and freedom from religion. She's a very decent person and may well have done some volunteering out of courtesy to those who wanted to celebrate Christmas have to work then. I don't know if she did. We haven't discussed it.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Are you as anti-Jewish as you are anti-Christian?


I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-religion when it comes to MY LIFE.

You have conveniently forgotten the many times I have stated my passionate belief in freedom of religion and my belief that churches should not be taxed.

I know that protecting your freedom to worship ensures my freedom to NOT worship. I also know that the power to tax is the power to control. When it comes to religion, that must never, ever be permitted.

You're trying to portray me as a hater, but I'm questioning and challenging you. Only those who challenge and examine their own beliefs can claim any depth and fullness of faith. You seem to have taken the easy route.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> There are no contradictions or failures in my God or the Bible. The only thing I KNEW when I was 8 was that I was a sinner and needed forgiveness. I have read and studied the Bible for more than 60 years and I am still learning. I will NEVER know it all.
> 
> From the Christmas story: Luke 2:7 (NKJV) _ And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in *swaddling cloths*, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn._
> The swaddling cloths were burial cloths, they carried with them so if someone on the journey died, they could prepare the body for the return trip. Makes perfect sense, since Jesus would be the one who would die for our sins. This fact was mentioned by someone on KP in December.


Say what?? Swaddling babies is a fine old tradition. They're often swaddled in hospital nurseries. It makes them feel more secure after being born. After all, the womb doesn't have much extra stretching room in it.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Say what?? Swaddling babies is a fine old tradition. They're often swaddled in hospital nurseries. It makes them feel more secure after being born. After all, the womb doesn't have much extra stretching room in it.


Return trip? I always understood that Jewish tradition called for immediate burial. Will some of our Jewish friends care to enlighten us?

It makes a lot more sense to me that the swaddling cloths were carried to wrap a baby, since I presume Mary knew she was pregnant and just might need something for the baby. Burial cloths? C'mon.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Then should Islam be taught in Public School? Should students be asked to write the tenets of Islam and be denied the Ten Commandments?


joesomma
since we are a Nation with many cultures, Students should be taught ALL or NOTHING. Take your pick.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-religion when it comes to MY LIFE.
> 
> You have conveniently forgotten the many times I have stated my passionate belief in freedom of religion and my belief that churches should not be taxed.
> 
> ...


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

I think taxing religion would eventually lead to regulating religion. Legislators can't help themselves. Then where would we be?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Then why is Islam being taught?


Baloney. Information and history is one thing, indoctrination is another. Christians are much, much more guilty of doing that.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Since there are* none* I have no idea of what you are referring to.
> 
> My God is a loving God. He wants all to believe in Him.
> 
> He is a just God. He will not admit a sinner to Heaven unless they have repented of their sins, through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.


And his justice includes some pretty horrible, immoral things. LOGIC. If god is all powerful, all loving and all just, why punish the innocent for the sins of others? Why punish all those Jews with the Holocaust for sins committed by someone else, thousands of years before they were even alive? How can that be considered justice? How can that be called love? If, as Christians claim, humans are able to understand and reason, do they not understand and reason as god intended? We understand morality and killing Jews for ancient sins of others doesn't even come close. God is immoral if he behaves as you describe. This is a very fundamental contradiction in character.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Not surprised at that she once again went back on her word aka lied. But thank you for pointing it out, for all to see again. Pathetic, don't you think?


Do you realize how childish you and solow are? You search for every little nuance in Designer's messages that you think makes her look bad, and instead you look silly and trivial. Why don't you stop this, which is apparently based in some incident from prehistoric times?

Yes, you can say "She started it." That only looks more childish.

You can say that I myself pick on what you think are trivial matters, and that would be true if I believed they were trivial.

Just grow up where Designer is concerned; you can pick on me all you want, but this battle against Designer is just too silly.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> A Jewish friend of mine took her employer to court for printing "Merry Christmas" on the employees' paychecks. She won. I'm Catholic and even I don't want to be subjected to public displays of Christianity. Keep religion where it belongs, in your heart, in your soul, in your home, in your church, temple, synagogue, etc.
> 
> Religious people who persist in attacking people of other faiths aren't practicing their own very well. Practicing a religion take a lot of work. After I attend to my personal devotions I don't have much time to attack anyone. Too bad others don't feel the same.
> 
> IMO, fundamentalism is the dark side of any religion you care to name, including none at all. The religious wars we're seeing now leave me despairing about human nature. To me "in my house are many mansions" means there's room for everyone in Heaven. We could be practicing for that instead of seeing anything anyone of us believes is superior to what someone else may believe. Heck, we could see this world as a home with many mansions. A lot more people would still be alive if we did.


===================
My Nana told me when we were talking about our faith. _"Shirley -- it is not your place to judge. Only God will judge. I believe that he will judge on how you live your life, not what is taught by one faith or another. I believe that it is like the spoke of a wheel, with the center Heaven, or God -- it doesn't matter what spoke you go on -as all roads lead to God. It is important how you live your life -- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Live kindly, do good, love your fellow man" I have always believed in her ideas of Christianity and heaven.

She believed how people lived their lives was the way to the center spoke ( heaven or God). It made sense to me. She was a very strong Baptist but did not believe that others who lived by a different religion were doomed to hell. She felt that all of us were created by God, Christian, Agnostics, Muslims, Jews, and on and on. How you lived your life was what mattered_. She did however recognize evil. (she lost a son in Europe during WWII and another was taken prisoner in Hong Kong. She believed they went against everything God wanted us to do and live by.

I was part of a very rigid, close minded Christian family who had no real love for anyone who didn't agree l00% like they did. However, my parents were hypocrites. My father was very active in the Church (one of the elders, and very highly respected. Except he shouldn't have been because behind closed doors he was a martinet and a verbal and sometimes physical abuser. Our life was a complete lie. I learned a lot from seeing him and seeing the difference between him and my Nana. jmo


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Baloney. Information and history is one thing, indoctrination is another. Christians are much, much more guilty of doing that.


When was the last time you saw a Catholic or a Jew have bombs strapped to their chest and blow themselves up in a mosque?


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> ===================
> My Nana told me when we were talking about our faith. _"Shirley -- it is not your place to judge. Only God will judge. I believe that he will judge on how you live your life, not what is taught by one faith or another. I believe that it is like the spoke of a wheel, with the center Heaven, or God -- it doesn't matter what spoke you go on -as all roads lead to God. It is important how you live your life -- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Live kindly, do good, love your fellow man" I have always believed in her ideas of Christianity and heaven.
> 
> She believed how people lived their lives was the way to the center spoke ( heaven or God). It made sense to me. She was a very strong Baptist but did not believe that others who lived by a different religion were doomed to hell. She felt that all of us were created by God, Christian, Agnostics, Muslims, Jews, and on and on. How you lived your life was what mattered_. She did however recognize evil. (she lost a son in Europe during WWII and another was taken prisoner in Hong Kong. She believed they went against everything God wanted us to do and live by.
> ...


I think your Nana was a great lady.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Duplicate


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Triplicate


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> When was the last time you saw a Catholic or a Jew have bombs strapped to their chest and blow themselves up in a mosque?


Totally off point and nonsensical.

The topic was education vs. indoctrination.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> ===================
> My Nana told me when we were talking about our faith. _"Shirley -- it is not your place to judge. Only God will judge. I believe that he will judge on how you live your life, not what is taught by one faith or another. I believe that it is like the spoke of a wheel, with the center Heaven, or God -- it doesn't matter what spoke you go on -as all roads lead to God. It is important how you live your life -- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Live kindly, do good, love your fellow man" I have always believed in her ideas of Christianity and heaven.
> 
> She believed how people lived their lives was the way to the center spoke ( heaven or God). It made sense to me. She was a very strong Baptist but did not believe that others who lived by a different religion were doomed to hell. She felt that all of us were created by God, Christian, Agnostics, Muslims, Jews, and on and on. How you lived your life was what mattered_. She did however recognize evil. (she lost a son in Europe during WWII and another was taken prisoner in Hong Kong. She believed they went against everything God wanted us to do and live by.
> ...


Your Nana was a wise woman and I'm glad you listened to her.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Prove it!
> 
> You have no idea if your knee jerk comment is true or not. It may have been from a survivor that went on to do great things.
> 
> Symbolism over substance, classic


Considering that is was a well known fact that most of those in concentration camps were murdered, many by being put in an oven and burned to death (I am speaking of 6 million people , a goodly portion who were Jews. I stand by my statement that it was very possible, and likely probable that the person who wrote message died in the ovens. * Substance over symbolism - classic *in my opinion. You prove it wasn't!

I am not going to carry this on with you. I realize there is no way anyone can reason with you.

Even facts don't matter. Only you have all the answers. NOT


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Do you realize how childish you and solow are? You search for every little nuance in Designer's messages that you think makes her look bad, and instead you look silly and trivial. Why don't you stop this, which is apparently based in some incident from prehistoric times?
> 
> Yes, you can say "She started it." That only looks more childish.
> 
> ...


I prefer to sometimes be child-like and enjoy life's wonders.

You should really consider stop telling people what to do and what not to do. That could be construed as an attempt to act like a bully. Tsk tsk, you are way too old to be acting that way in my opinion.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Totally off point and nonsensical.
> 
> The topic was education vs. indoctrination.


Have you never noticed this before. It's the Right's way of doing things. When faced with a question they can't answer, they change the subject, or try to.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> How sad! You are so determined that there is no God, that you want everyone else to believe the same. You have stated you are a member of "Freedom from Religion." That group is determined to remove any trace of Christianity from displays or history. Why are you, as a member of that group, so afraid of a 60 year old cross as a war memorial, on a hill in the middle of nowhere? Or a picture of two children with hands together in front of a flag? Why is the sight of anything Christian so offensive, you do not anyone to see it?
> 
> If you *truly* believe there is no God, you would leave everyone else to their "foolishness," and not try to take away their belief in God and their way of practicing their belief. In the back of your mind, are you afraid there really is God?


Green made her own position very clear. She did not, in any way, indicate she wished to remove any traces of religion. Nowhere in her post does she allude to that.

Is it so hard for you to understand that some of us do not believe in G-d?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> So true, Green. It boggles me that the so-called Christians of the D and P thread condemn those Muslims who grow angry when the prophet Muhammad is portrayed in undignified ways. Such hypocrisy! They themselves blew a gasket when less-than-flattering images of the Christian God and Jesus were posted on D and P...compared it to a gang rape, moaned that they'd never get over the hurt and trauma, and tried to bounce the posters by reporting the images to Admin.


 :thumbup:


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Considering that is was a well known fact that most of those in concentration camps were murdered, many by being put in an oven and burned to death (I am speaking of 6 million people , a goodly portion who were Jews. I stand by my statement that it was very possible, and likely probable that the person who wrote message died in the ovens. * Substance over symbolism - classic *in my opinion. You prove it wasn't!
> 
> I am not going to carry this on with you. I realize there is no way anyone can reason with you.
> 
> Even facts don't matter. Only you have all the answers. NOT


Again, you are making a conclusion without proof. All we know is someone etched that comment on a wall in a concentration camp. We don't know who. We don't know when. We don't know what happened after that. You can not prove anymore than that. Feelings are not facts.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> If you are right, there will be no afterlife. If I am right, I will go to heaven and you will go to hell. Have you considered that? I have nothing to fear.


Good for you. Now leave everybody else alone.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> I prefer to sometimes be child-like and enjoy life's wonders.
> 
> You should really consider stop telling people what to do and what not to do. That could be construed as an attempt to act like a bully. Tsk tsk, you are way too old to be acting that way in my opinion.


How old is way too old?

There's a difference between childishness (your quality) and child-likeness (which you may aspire to but have missed).

Okay, never mind. You and Solow should continue acting like 8-year-olds and looking ridiculous, and I'll just laugh at you.

And if you really believe that old age is so restrictive and unpleasant, I hope it never happens to you.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Lying, disobeying my parents, hitting my sisters, refusing to go to school and many, many, more.


joeysomma
those around you seemed to be bend on finding fault with you and each additional fault made you disobey even more. Children are born innocent, they are being influenced by those who are in charge of them and around them. So glad I had excellent role models. It now becomes clear why you are so critical of everything others do and say. You are still rebelling and are trying to take charge. Sorry you are not on a winning track. Lay down the weapons still being handed to you and find some Peace in your Life.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I consider Pascal to be intellectually bankrupt. But I have no problem believing joey and those like her (extreme, literal - not all christians) have no need to endeavor to convince themselves. They are totally convinced.


Yes, but every post joey makes about her religious convictions reads as though she IS trying to convince herself.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> Again, you are making a conclusion without proof. All we know is someone etched that comment on a wall in a concentration camp. We don't know who. We don't know when. We don't know what happened after that. You can not prove anymore than that. Feelings are not facts.


Your feelings are not facts, either.

No one has claimed to know the facts, but it doesn't take a genius to understand probability of outcome. Your idea of the probability is far less plausible and looks more like magical thinking than anything else.

Additionally, you seem to have missed the point and are just trying to obfuscate the core issue. Not everyone believes in a-god. Yours or any other. Why is that such a difficult concept for you to accept?


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Totally off point and nonsensical.
> 
> The topic was education vs. indoctrination.


Not true. I do not believe that Christians are more indoctrinated than radical Muslims. And yes there are radical Christians, but more radical Muslim extremists have blown up or murdered more innocent people than radical Christians. I can not change what was done during the Crusades, I am talking about today. I do know that radical Muslim terrorists murdered people at a bakery for just being Jewish. I know that radical Muslims are slaughtering Christians, and that radical Christians are not slaughtering innocent Muslims.

So if you want to score religions on the basis of indoctrination and horrible things that happen because of that indoctrination in recent times, the radical Muslims win that contest hands down.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> I believe you are fearful because you want to remove any reference to Christianity from the public sphere. If you were not fearful, you would not care if someone placed a cross on public land in the middle of nowhere. Do You think that if you do not see a cross it will not exist?
> 
> I have said that Satan rules this world. You can blame him for the holocaust and all of the other horrible things happening in this world. God did send his Son, Jesus, as a Savior for individuals who CHOOSE to believe in Him. Satan is ruling a "Season." At the appointed time, God will throw Satan and all of his followers into the "Lake of Fire."
> 
> ...


Satan. How convenient.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> joeysomma
> those around you seemed to be bend on finding fault with you and each additional fault made you disobey even more. Children are born innocent, they are being influenced by those who are in charge of them and around them. So glad I had excellent role models. It now becomes clear why you are so critical of everything others do and say. You are still rebelling and are trying to take charge. Sorry you are not on a winning track. Lay down the weapons still being handed to you and find some Peace in your Life.


I weep for the little children who, instead of having parents that understand the learning process and socialization of the human species, inflict guilt and shame and fear by frightening children with sin and hell and the idea they are fundamentally bad at the core unless god helps them. So sad when a child is taught she is a "sinner" and displeasing to god before she has reached the age of reason and before she has learned self-control and before the moral conscience is fully developed. I don't think small children are capable of "sin" in a willful way and I don't think they can fully comprehend religion at that age.

My opinion.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> Not true. I do not believe that Christians are more indoctrinated than radical Muslims. And yes there are radical Christians, but more radical Muslim extremists have blown up or murdered more innocent people than radical Christians. I can not change what was done during the Crusades, I am talking about today. I do know that radical Muslim terrorists murdered people at a bakery for just being Jewish. I know that radical Muslims are slaughtering Christians, and that radical Christians are not slaughtering innocent Muslims.
> 
> So if you want to score religions on the basis of indoctrination and horrible things that happen because of that indoctrination in recent times, the radical Muslims win that contest hands down.


Go back and see if you can find the topic before you start pontificating. You are completely out in space on this one.

If you want to express your opinion, start another panel instead of replying to something that was never said.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Then should Islam be taught in Public School? Should students be asked to write the tenets of Islam and be denied the Ten Commandments?


Yes, there's a history to religion after all.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I weep for the little children who, instead of having parents that understand the learning process and socialization of the human species, inflict guilt and shame and fear by frightening children with sin and hell and the idea they are fundamentally bad at the core unless god helps them. So sad when a child is taught she is a "sinner" and displeasing to god before she has reached the age of reason and before she has learned self-control and before the moral conscience is fully developed. I don't think small children are capable of "sin" in a willful way and I don't think they can fully comprehend religion at that age.
> 
> My opinion.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Lying, disobeying my parents, hitting my sisters, refusing to go to school and many, many, more.


And you haven't changed a bit? Still sinning after 60 years? Thought you might of learned by now.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Go back and see if you can find the topic before you start pontificating. You are completely out in space on this one.
> 
> If you want to express your opinion, start another panel instead of replying to something that was never said.


Thank you. You saved me the trouble of pointing out that she obviously hadn't understood what was said.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you. You saved me the trouble of pointing out that she obviously hadn't understood what was said.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I'm used to hearing crap like that - as if that person (or others like her) are magically experts on what is in my heart and mind. Devout Christians are extremely uncomfortable with us atheists.


Some of my best friends are atheists . . .


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> When was the last time you saw a Catholic or a Jew have bombs strapped to their chest and blow themselves up in a mosque?


lovethelake
not all there again today? Sure sounds like it.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Again, you are making a conclusion without proof. All we know is someone etched that comment on a wall in a concentration camp. We don't know who. We don't know when. We don't know what happened after that. You can not prove anymore than that. Feelings are not facts.


lovethelake
You are proof that the God you speak of as your Creator, has failed miserably.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joesomma
boy are you arrogant being so sure that you wind up in some Heaven. I am very sure that you and I wind up in exactly the same place, you getting there by evolution and I as specks of ashes. I know my prediction rattles your cage because you do not want to face reality. Face it, there is no other way.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I weep for the little children who, instead of having parents that understand the learning process and socialization of the human species, inflict guilt and shame and fear by frightening children with sin and hell and the idea they are fundamentally bad at the core unless god helps them. So sad when a child is taught she is a "sinner" and displeasing to god before she has reached the age of reason and before she has learned self-control and before the moral conscience is fully developed. I don't think small children are capable of "sin" in a willful way and I don't think they can fully comprehend religion at that age.
> 
> My opinion.
> 
> ...


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Born innocent, as they do not know right from wrong at the moment of birth.
> Sinless, NO,
> Romans 3:23 (NKJV)_ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, _


joeysomma
Newborns are Sinners? Are you out of your frickin mind?


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> I have stated many times, I am just a sinner "Saved by the Grace of God."


joeysomma
Fairy Tales don't come true, it will happen to you, just be sure of that.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> Some of my best friends are atheists . . .


And why not? We're (mostly) very nice people. Glad you can see that.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Born innocent, as they do not know right from wrong at the moment of birth.
> Sinless, NO,
> Romans 3:23 (NKJV)_ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, _


Makes excellent sense. And very "just."

Innocent babies at the moment of birth are doomed because...?

I've never bought the idea of original sin. It is completely immoral to lay "sin" on a child because Adam and Eve disobeyed god. Of course, the idea goes back to barbarians who saw no problem with it, and also is tied into the Christian idea that the pleasure of sex is evil and must be controlled.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen said:
> 
> 
> > I weep for the little children who, instead of having parents that understand the learning process and socialization of the human species, inflict guilt and shame and fear by frightening children with sin and hell and the idea they are fundamentally bad at the core unless god helps them. So sad when a child is taught she is a "sinner" and displeasing to god before she has reached the age of reason and before she has learned self-control and before the moral conscience is fully developed. I don't think small children are capable of "sin" in a willful way and I don't think they can fully comprehend religion at that age.
> ...


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You're the Christian in that story. How very, very sad. How sad that it is not uncommon among the hyper-religious.


DGreen
My professional Life started with a super-religious Boss. What Hell he created for us. He thought that he was God while he was nothing but a pompous Bastard.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> My professional Life started with a super-religious Boss. What Hell he created for us. He thought that he was God while he was nothing but a pompous Bastard.


I don't mean to make light of your experience, but I've had plenty of bosses who thought they were god - even if not super religious!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> You're the Christian in that story. How very, very sad. How sad that it is not uncommon among the hyper-religious.


I agree - ask me how I know. Life was not very pleasant and really scary when you are told you are going to hell, because you didn't eat your dinner fast enough. Or didn't do the dishes quick enough, or dropped something and on and on. I just never fell for it. I lost all respect for them. Thanks be to my Nana. This was in the 30's-early 40's. Took a long time to gain any feeling of self worth - even though I knew they weren't right -- it still colored my life. I met my husband who has spent his life telling me how okay I am -- finally I started to accept that he was right. If he saw only good in me and I valued his opinion over every other person, it sure helped me get my ideas straight. But I still fighth feeligs that I deserve to be treated shabbily. However I don't feel that for very long. It affects children when they are ridiculed and shown no love, but lots of anger and are treated as if they are stupid and not good enough. I understand Joey better now although she won't agree with me for a minute.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Not true. I do not believe that Christians are more indoctrinated than radical Muslims. And yes there are radical Christians, but more radical Muslim extremists have blown up or murdered more innocent people than radical Christians. I can not change what was done during the Crusades, I am talking about today. I do know that radical Muslim terrorists murdered people at a bakery for just being Jewish. I know that radical Muslims are slaughtering Christians, and that radical Christians are not slaughtering innocent Muslims.
> 
> So if you want to score religions on the basis of indoctrination and horrible things that happen because of that indoctrination in recent times, the radical Muslims win that contest hands down.


You know the concept: You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts!!!

Do you know that the US military is/has been hijacked by fundamentalist Christians? Do you know how much pressure enlistees are put under to subscribe to a fundamentalist Christian understanding of the world? Do you know that soldiers are being trained in the same jihadist mentality that you decry? And who do think killed 1.5 millions people in Iraq? It sure wasn't Native Americans!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> And his justice includes some pretty horrible, immoral things. LOGIC. If god is all powerful, all loving and all just, why punish the innocent for the sins of others? Why punish all those Jews with the Holocaust for sins committed by someone else, thousands of years before they were even alive? How can that be considered justice? How can that be called love? If, as Christians claim, humans are able to understand and reason, do they not understand and reason as god intended? We understand morality and killing Jews for ancient sins of others doesn't even come close. God is immoral if he behaves as you describe. This is a very fundamental contradiction in character.


good question. I have struggled with the answer. I have ended up agreeing with you. There is no other logical answer for me at least.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Some of my best friends are atheists . . .


me too! pretty smart and nice people too.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Some of my best friends are atheists . . .


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> You know the concept: You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts!!!
> 
> Do you know that the US military is/has been hijacked by fundamentalist Christians? Do you know how much pressure enlistees are put under to subscribe to a fundamentalist Christian understanding of the world? Do you know that soldiers are being trained in the same jihadist mentality that you decry? And who do think killed 1.5 millions people in Iraq? It sure wasn't Native Americans!


 :thumbup:


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I don't mean to make light of your experience, but I've had plenty of bosses who thought they were god - even if not super religious!


DGreen
I hear you. My "special" guy (not Catholic) went to Church almost every day during work hours and we had to make up for what he did not do. I often wondered if it was Church he went to. Looking back, I think instead of going to a Holy place he went to a ho place and since he was so obvious religious, no-one suspected any hanky-panky then. Oh under the umbrella of religion much takes place that is not kosher.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> It is the Christians that are being removed from the Military.


joeysomma
since in our Nation most people are Christians, what do you expect Grouch? Do we have to teach you everything? Yikes you are "undernourished".


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put MIB.



MaidInBedlam said:


> Solo, this isn't a message just for you. I'm using what you've said as a springboard for what I want to say.
> 
> There's no such thing as posting solely to someone else here. This is a public place and people can and do respond to whatever is posted.
> 
> ...


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I agree - ask me how I know. Life was not very pleasant and really scary when you are told you are going to hell, because you didn't eat your dinner fast enough. Or didn't do the dishes quick enough, or dropped something and on and on. I just never fell for it. I lost all respect for them. Thanks be to my Nana. This was in the 30's-early 40's. Took a long time to gain any feeling of self worth - even though I knew they weren't right -- it still colored my life. I met my husband who has spent his life telling me how okay I am -- finally I started to accept that he was right. If he saw only good in me and I valued his opinion over every other person, it sure helped me get my ideas straight. But I still fighth feeligs that I deserve to be treated shabbily. However I don't feel that for very long. It affects children when they are ridiculed and shown no love, but lots of anger and are treated as if they are stupid and not good enough. I understand Joey better now although she won't agree with me for a minute.


Designer1234
you deserve everything good and never think otherwise. I am so happy to hear that you had a wonderful Nana. I had the most fabulous Mom and the WORST Grandmothers. Two women who should have never been Mothers and never wanted to be Grandmothers and let us know over and over again.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> There is no separation of Church and State, in the Constitution. When does a statement written in a letter more than 100 years old become a part of the Constitution? The answer is when some liberal judges decide it should be.
> 
> Remember the First Amendment: "_Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech..._ Anyone, anywhere, anytime can say* "God Bless America."*


And anyone, anywhere, anytime can say 'Your religion, as you practice it, is hypocritical nonsense.' Presumably we both feel better now.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> And anyone, anywhere, anytime can say 'Your religion, as you practice it, is hypocritical nonsense.' Presumably we both feel better now.


damemary
Bravo.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> joeysomma
> since in our Nation most people are Christians, what do you expect Grouch? Do we have to teach you everything? Yikes you are "undernourished".


From the extreme right-wing rag "Godfather Politics" I found this:

Then earlier this year, we reported on a new Pentagon order telling military chaplains that if they preached against sin, including homosexuality, that they could be charged with sedition and treason. It seems that these were only the beginning skirmishes in the militarys war on Christianity.

Read more at http://godfatherpolitics.com/5854/us-military-waging-war-christianity/#XLqYUJuLF4f6yDzS.99

A skirmish regarding Gideon bibles is hardly purging the military of Christians. This kind of garbage doesn't deserve further analysis.

For further "news" on this subject, I invite you to go to http://offgridsurvival.com/category/news/police-state/page/2/ where you can also find lots of other hate pieces against Obama. Judge their objectivity and accuracy for yourselves. These appear to be the kind of "resources" some people believe because they pander to the fantasy that there is a war on Christians.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Denier.



lovethelake said:


> Prove it!
> 
> You have no idea if your knee jerk comment is true or not. It may have been from a survivor that went on to do great things.
> 
> Symbolism over substance, classic


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> From the extreme right-wing rag "Godfather Politics" I found this:
> 
> Then earlier this year, we reported on a new Pentagon order telling military chaplains that if they preached against sin, including homosexuality, that they could be charged with sedition and treason. It seems that these were only the beginning skirmishes in the militarys war on Christianity.
> 
> ...


DGreen
thank you very much. I shall go there a little later. Too many disruptions right now. 
Garbage is the most accurate description.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I thought Wombat would enjoy this. Australia knitters were acknowledged for knitting outfits for penguins and for the paw covers for the koalas. It was shown on Rachel Maddow.
Those are the best dressed penguins in the world.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> Denier.


damemary
we aren't really surprised at her ill statements, are we.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> damemary
> we aren't really surprised at her ill statements, are we.


Did she just say that Christians are being removed from the military????


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Did she just say that Christians are being removed from the military????


Bratty Patty
yes, that is the manure she spreads.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I've just been ranting about it's about time for the younger women to fight the birth control/ abortion fight or live without it for a while and see how they like it. I'm tired of fighting these battles too.



MaidInBedlam said:


> Indeed, separation of church and state and freedom from religion are violated minute after minute. Every time every President has ended a speech with "God bless America", I cringe. I want to chain myself to the White House fence. I want to start a legal action that would take separation of church and state all the way to the Supreme Court. The strict constructionists would find it very hard to rule against Constitutional imperatives.
> 
> Using hot-button issues is a great way to practice good old "divide and conquer". My only excuse is that I have major responsibilities at home leaving me with little time to do much of anything else. Isn't it way past time for younger generations to take up this cause as well as may others? Rioting and vandalism don't count.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Did she just say that Christians are being removed from the military????


Yep. I'm afraid to ask where that crapola came from - she's liable to cut and paste all of her "sources." I just had a very nice dinner and I don't want to get nauseous.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Bratty Patty
> yes, that is the manure she spreads.


I wonder what the reasoning is for that. As far as I know the military does not give special regard for one's personal religion.
Please don't respond joeysomma.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> I thought Wombat would enjoy this. Australia knitters were acknowledged for knitting outfits for penguins and for the paw covers for the koalas. It was shown on Rachel Maddow.
> Those are the best dressed penguins in the world.


Yea knitters!! Yea Aussies!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Yea knitters!! Yea Aussies!


They looked do adorable!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> I wonder what the reasoning is for that. As far as I know the military does not give special regard for one's personal religion.


Not true. The military heavily favors Christianity and has had to discipline officers (after being sued) for forcing those under their command to attend services and for discriminating against atheists and others.

So, when the miscreants are disciplined, it's a war on Christians. We've heard this story before, I believe.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> I've just been ranting about it's about time for the younger women to fight the birth control/ abortion fight or live without it for a while and see how they like it. I'm tired of fighting these battles too.


damemary
when things are handed over easily, the value of it is always diminished.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Not true. The military heavily favors Christianity and has had to discipline officers (after being sued) for forcing those under their command to attend services and for discriminating against atheists and others.
> 
> So, when the miscreants are disciplined, it's a war on Christians. We've heard this story before, I believe.


Thanks for enlightening me on this. I had no idea!


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen said:
> 
> 
> > I weep for the little children who, instead of having parents that understand the learning process and socialization of the human species, inflict guilt and shame and fear by frightening children with sin and hell and the idea they are fundamentally bad at the core unless god helps them. So sad when a child is taught she is a "sinner" and displeasing to god before she has reached the age of reason and before she has learned self-control and before the moral conscience is fully developed. I don't think small children are capable of "sin" in a willful way and I don't think they can fully comprehend religion at that age.
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Where is Islam being taught? Is it taught as religion or as philosophy? There is a difference. Let's just drop it.



joeysomma said:


> Then why is Islam being taught?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Your Nana was a wise woman.



Designer1234 said:


> ===================
> My Nana told me when we were talking about our faith. _"Shirley -- it is not your place to judge. Only God will judge. I believe that he will judge on how you live your life, not what is taught by one faith or another. I believe that it is like the spoke of a wheel, with the center Heaven, or God -- it doesn't matter what spoke you go on -as all roads lead to God. It is important how you live your life -- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Live kindly, do good, love your fellow man" I have always believed in her ideas of Christianity and heaven.
> 
> She believed how people lived their lives was the way to the center spoke ( heaven or God). It made sense to me. She was a very strong Baptist but did not believe that others who lived by a different religion were doomed to hell. She felt that all of us were created by God, Christian, Agnostics, Muslims, Jews, and on and on. How you lived your life was what mattered_. She did however recognize evil. (she lost a son in Europe during WWII and another was taken prisoner in Hong Kong. She believed they went against everything God wanted us to do and live by.
> ...


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

tamarque said:


> Many use religion to hide behind and excuse their abusive behavior. It clearly is not spiritually motivated. The difference I think is that when someone let's say is drinking, it is possible to argue against the effects of alcohol. But when you stick religion in the mix, you have a situation where you find yourself confronting the brick wall of a belief system that has no logic nor can it be argued. And given the high value this culture places on religion, it become doubly hard to confront. You often end up with a deranged person who cannot come to grips with their own, internalized belief system. It operates on the cellular level in the person. There is very little in our culture that can work on the cellular level of learning. Maybe meditation. Often homeopathy. Some other energy forms of healing may help as they can operate on the cellular level. But our culture does not allow acceptance of these protocols so another layer of obstacles to cure.


I have no interest in "curing" religion so long as there is no harm to others. It's hopeless anyway, because our culture reinforces religion in too many ways. Deranged or not, you are right, reason is useless against deep-seated religious beliefs. But then, we don't know how to treat other forms of insanity, either.

I DO draw the line where Christians want to enshrine their beliefs into law. That's why I speak out and push back.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I thought Wombat would enjoy this. Australia knitters were acknowledged for knitting outfits for penguins and for the paw covers for the koalas. It was shown on Rachel Maddow.
> Those are the best dressed penguins in the world.


That is terrific. I thought it would be the Aussies that would be able to respond because of geographical proximity. And Rachel is such a good one to give commendations. Do like that woman a lot.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> It is the Christians that are being removed from the Military.


Link to something that proves your statement??? Other than godfatherpolitics stuff??


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I have no interest in "curing" religion so long as there is no harm to others. It's hopeless anyway, because our culture reinforces religion in too many ways. Deranged or not, you are right, reason is useless against deep-seated religious beliefs. But then, we don't know how to treat other forms of insanity, either.
> 
> I DO draw the line where Christians want to enshrine their beliefs into law. That's why I speak out and push back.


I did not talk about curing religion, but the ill consequences from its abuse. That is entirely different. Depression, violence, suicide--those are some of the consequences that even religions recognize as dysfunctional behaviors. That was the point I was responding to, not the issue of separation of church and state.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Not surprised, but definitely offended.



Huckleberry said:


> damemary
> we aren't really surprised at her ill statements, are we.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Why don't you read the entire article
> 
> http://godfatherpolitics.com/5854/us-military-waging-war-christianity/#XLqYUJuLF4f6yDzS.99
> 
> There is a "War on Christians" in the Military


Why don't I read the entire article? Because it's crap and because Godfather Politics is not legitimate journalism.

I don't think any of the ladies here are going to be convinced by your "resource," so save yourself some trouble and let it go.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Did you hear about the moon and green cheese?



BrattyPatty said:


> Did she just say that Christians are being removed from the military????


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

tamarque said:


> I did not talk about curing religion, but the ill consequences from its abuse. That is entirely different. Depression, violence, suicide--those are some of the consequences that even religions recognize as dysfunctional behaviors. That was the point I was responding to, not the issue of separation of church and state.


I see.

We don't know what to do with the mentally ill. Quite discouraging, actually.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sad and true.



Huckleberry said:


> damemary
> when things are handed over easily, the value of it is always diminished.


----------



## Farmwoman (Jul 2, 2014)

Poor Pearl & lovethelake- LADIES! This is not the forum for your arguments, and spewing nastiness, and hatred. This is a place for sharing, knitting, crocheting, and friends who care about each other, and support one another. Your posts are disgusting, disturbing, disheartening, and sad. I fail to understand why you continue to snipe and attack each other repeatedly on a public forum. Please, take it some where else! : (


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Farmwoman said:


> Poor Pearl & lovethelake- LADIES! This is not the forum for your arguments, and spewing nastiness, and hatred. This is a place for sharing, knitting, crocheting, and friends who care about each other, and support one another. Your posts are disgusting, disturbing, disheartening, and sad. I fail to understand why you continue to snipe and attack each other repeatedly on a public forum. Please, take it some where else! : (


Aw, shaddup. No one forced you to come here.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> This was DGreen's link.


Fine, but where is the proof of your statement??


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Not true. The military heavily favors Christianity and has had to discipline officers (after being sued) for forcing those under their command to attend services and for discriminating against atheists and others.
> 
> So, when the miscreants are disciplined, it's a war on Christians. We've heard this story before, I believe.


DGreen
in thousands of years from now the same stuff will be spread no doubt. It keeps the business going.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> http://www.stripes.com/news/navy/would-be-atheist-chaplain-files-suit-over-navy-s-rejection-of-application-1.312395


In support of my statements earlier today:

The notion of an atheist chaplain is nonsensical; its an oxymoron"

See, I'm not the only one who knows this.

Your story is about ONE person. What a groundswell of atheist rabblerousing. (Sarcasm)


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Why don't you wake up and smell the roses? Find out what is really going on in this country. Have you heard of Common Core???


Common Core is not a plot to contaminate children. It was dreamed up by governors but now your republicans hate it because you hate everything.

Perhaps it is you who should wake up and recognize how sanctimonious you are on the subject of "what is really going on." We know what's going on - the republicans are destroying the country. Period. Full stop. End of paragraph.

That is sincerely the only response I will have to the subject. Blather on, Joey.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Why don't you read the entire article
> 
> http://godfatherpolitics.com/5854/us-military-waging-war-christianity/#XLqYUJuLF4f6yDzS.99
> 
> There is a "War on Christians" in the Military


joeysomma
why can't you ever come up with a source that is neutral and sane? Makes one wonder where you reside.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Farmwoman said:


> Poor Pearl & lovethelake- LADIES! This is not the forum for your arguments, and spewing nastiness, and hatred. This is a place for sharing, knitting, crocheting, and friends who care about each other, and support one another. Your posts are disgusting, disturbing, disheartening, and sad. I fail to understand why you continue to snipe and attack each other repeatedly on a public forum. Please, take it some where else! : (


Sorry, Hon, but this is the Chat section where any topic is fine. Time to turn around and go back to the farm - funny farm?????


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> But if he wins the lawsuit, Atheism will be recognized by the Navy as a religion, and the rest of the rules of a religion will follow, if they are not there already. That's what happens when one person sues for what they think is a right, it will soon apply to everyone.


Like Christians sued over hobby lobby? And now a religious wacko has used it in Utah to avoid testifying against a child rapist because it would violate their religious beliefs. Way to go, Christians.

By the way, I don't care what the Navy recognizes. Atheism is not a religion because a religion requires a god. I think we have been over that point already.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> joeysomma
> why can't you ever come up with a source that is neutral and sane? Makes one wonder where you reside.


Mentally or physically?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> But if he wins the lawsuit, Atheism will be recognized by the Navy as a religion, and the rest of the rules of a religion will follow, if they are not there already. That's what happens when one person sues for what they think is a right, it will soon apply to everyone.


How do you make a religion out of nothing? Wait a moment - can that be the common core of all religions?


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> But if he wins the lawsuit, Atheism will be recognized by the Navy as a religion, and the rest of the rules of a religion will follow, if they are not there already. That's what happens when one person sues for what they think is a right, it will soon apply to everyone.


joeysomma
wonder if you are reserved a place in the rubber room in your Heaven.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> How do you make a religion out of nothing? Wait a moment - can that be the common core of all religions?


By George, I think you have it!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Farmwoman said:


> Poor Pearl & lovethelake- LADIES! This is not the forum for your arguments, and spewing nastiness, and hatred. This is a place for sharing, knitting, crocheting, and friends who care about each other, and support one another. Your posts are disgusting, disturbing, disheartening, and sad. I fail to understand why you continue to snipe and attack each other repeatedly on a public forum. Please, take it some where else! : (


This happens to be one of the Political Threads which are on chit chat (non knitting posts). If it bothers you you are welcome to go to other threads that suit you better. Admin allows these threads and this is nothing to do with knitting or crochet.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> But if he wins the lawsuit, Atheism will be recognized by the Navy as a religion, and the rest of the rules of a religion will follow, if they are not there already. That's what happens when one person sues for what they think is a right, it will soon apply to everyone.


That is how the Republicans work, isn't it?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ah. Always the perfect words.



DGreen said:


> Aw, shaddup. No one forced you to come here.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Farmwoman said:


> Poor Pearl & lovethelake- LADIES! This is not the forum for your arguments, and spewing nastiness, and hatred. This is a place for sharing, knitting, crocheting, and friends who care about each other, and support one another. Your posts are disgusting, disturbing, disheartening, and sad. I fail to understand why you continue to snipe and attack each other repeatedly on a public forum. Please, take it some where else! : (


Farmwoman
I am sure you mean well but make a choice, if you do not like this kind of banter, don't read it, don't get involved, "Unwatch" and your Peace will be restored.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Why don't you wake up and smell the roses? Find out what is really going on in this country. Have you heard of Common Core???


joeysomma
we have always been wide awake and still have the capacity to think clearly and independently. You are hanging on to sources and things which are actually irrelevant because they are imaginary. After all the time you have spend here, do you still believe that we miss anything that has value? Think again. Now, write this down, we smell all flowers. We do not restrict ourselves to Roses, we are very liberal with our selection, we are all inclusive.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> joeysomma
> we have always been wide awake and still have the capacity to think clearly and independently. You are hanging on to sources and things which are actually irrelevant because they are imaginary. After all the time you have spend here, do you still believe that we miss anything that has value? Think again. Now, write this down, we smell all flowers. We do not restrict ourselves to Roses, we are very liberal with our selection, we are all inclusive.


Beautifully spoken.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Go back and read the article! Religion is a belief system. And Atheism is a belief in nothing.


You have no idea what you are talking about.

It takes stupendous arrogance for a Christian to presume to tell an atheist what an atheist believes.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Go back and read the article! Religion is a belief system. And Atheism is a belief in nothing.


Oh dear joey, quit. Just quit.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Aw, shaddup. No one forced you to come here.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> joeysomma
> we have always been wide awake and still have the capacity to think clearly and independently. You are hanging on to sources and things which are actually irrelevant because they are imaginary. After all the time you have spend here, do you still believe that we miss anything that has value? Think again. Now, write this down, we smell all flowers. We do not restrict ourselves to Roses, we are very liberal with our selection, we are all inclusive.


Very well put, Huck! :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Go back and read the article! Religion is a belief system. And Atheism is a belief in nothing.


joeysomma
oh dear, you must be ready to explode being so full of truly breathtaking stuff. I need to catch some air.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I thought Wombat would enjoy this. Australia knitters were acknowledged for knitting outfits for penguins and for the paw covers for the koalas. It was shown on Rachel Maddow.
> Those are the best dressed penguins in the world.


It's lovely to know the work of Aussie knitters are being acknowledged! Thanks Bratty for letting me know.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Yea knitters!! Yea Aussies!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Why don't you wake up and smell the roses? Find out what is really going on in this country. Have you heard of Common Core???


Oh, not that old chestnut! Again. :|


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> How do you make a religion out of nothing? Wait a moment - can that be the common core of all religions?


Ha!


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


Was it really necessary for you two to mock this well meaning lady? Don't see any of the Conservatives reacting that way. Just another example of the difference between Conservatives and Angry Liberals; kindness and acceptance VS mockery and attack.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> Was it really necessary for you two to mock this well meaning lady? Don't see any of the Conservatives reacting that way. Just another example of the difference between Conservatives and Angry Liberals; kindness and acceptance VS mockery and attack.


Well meaning?

Nothing in her post was well-meaning, it was a rebuke from someone who, even though she was not participating in the conversation, felt she had the right to chastise posters. She was being a busybody, telling people what to do.

Of course you don't "see" conservatives acting that way because you don't want to.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

lovethelake said:



> Was it really necessary for you two to mock this well meaning lady? Don't see any of the Conservatives reacting that way. Just another example of the difference between Conservatives and Angry Liberals; kindness and acceptance VS mockery and attack.


Okay Lakes you are right. We will invite Farm Woman back with Old McDonald.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Was it really necessary for you two to mock this well meaning lady? Don't see any of the Conservatives reacting that way. Just another example of the difference between Conservatives and Angry Liberals; kindness and acceptance VS mockery and attack.


lovethelake
your Optician got the lenses reversed.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Was it really necessary for you two to mock this well meaning lady? Don't see any of the Conservatives reacting that way. Just another example of the difference between Conservatives and Angry Liberals; kindness and acceptance VS mockery and attack.


lovethelake
all of us were directing her to "unwatch". No need for her to attack us - she just needs to bow out.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I see.
> 
> We don't know what to do with the mentally ill. Quite discouraging, actually.


Sure they do--make money off them. It is a booming windfall for the drug, psychiatric, prison and institutional industries.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Was it really necessary for you two to mock this well meaning lady? Don't see any of the Conservatives reacting that way. Just another example of the difference between Conservatives and Angry Liberals; kindness and acceptance VS mockery and attack.


Hostile behavior is something to be avoided--that's true. But how many times do you have to tell some they are not welcome before you lose your cool to their intransigence. You, too.

As for Conservative kindness? You must have drunk the Kool-aid Bush was pouring. He was so kind that he killed another 1 million Iraqis as collateral damage in his quest for power. Compassionate Conservatism has sold public education to the highest privateer. The results are stunningly disastrous. Enforced drugging via Monsatan and vaccine moguls, that his compassionate conservatism awarded 'held harmless' status and then supported fast tracking of drugs that cause major harm.

On a one-to-one, reread the hostile get lost commentaries that are meted out by those reactionaries, anti-democratic conservatives. Let's try and remove the rose colored glasses you wear.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

damemary said:


> I've just been ranting about it's about time for the younger women to fight the birth control/ abortion fight or live without it for a while and see how they like it. I'm tired of fighting these battles too.


I think I'm saving my energy for protesting against the gutting of Social Security and Medicare which is going to be really hairy if we end up with a Republican in the White House. Yes, both have already been damaged but it's only going to get worse. Maybe I should be putting together the things I'll need when I become homeless and my SS and Medicare eat up every cent I have for rent. Probably will have to go to soup kitchens unless those disappear, too. I guess I should look on the bright side. Every hungry person will be out hunting pigeons so there won't be as much pigeon poop on the streets...


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Allowing atheist chaplains recognizes atheism as a religion and would make atheists subject to the same legal restrictions they have gleefully placed on every other religion,


Given that there are noticeable numbers of people who don't believe in God plus the number of people who consider themselves to be secular humanists, it just might be a good idea for the military to provide them with the comfort of someone who could minister to their needs.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Was it really necessary for you two to mock this well meaning lady? Don't see any of the Conservatives reacting that way. Just another example of the difference between Conservatives and Angry Liberals; kindness and acceptance VS mockery and attack.


"Kindness and acceptance". Then why are you here? Most COWS would know better. There is nothing kind or accepting about you.
MOOOve on!


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I think I'm saving my energy for protesting against the gutting of Social Security and Medicare which is going to be really hairy if we end up with a Republican in the White House. Yes, both have already been damaged but it's only going to get worse. Maybe I should be putting together the things I'll need when I become homeless and my SS and Medicare eat up every cent I have for rent. Probably will have to go to soup kitchens unless those disappear, too. I guess I should look on the bright side. Every hungry person will be out hunting pigeons so there won't be as much pigeon poop on the streets...


Let me come back to my central piece of the problem It is RACISM. This entire country was founded on it. It has morphed in some ways but that is to be expected as the country as developed economically and materially. But the core attitudes, beliefs, and power relations have not changed 1 iota in 300 yrs--except to get sneakier. The entire Tea Party was organized based on racial fear and prejudice.

Remember the Southern Strategy designed to change the South from Blue to Red? It was all based on racial fear and prejudice. Today the Tea Party uses the same kind of bigotry and fear mongering to organize. And those people, the Fox News kind of people, buy into it. They support privatizing Social Security because they believe Blacks don't deserve it.
They still pull Reagan's Welfare Queen clap trap out of the dust bin to attack social services. When Romney attacked the 47% who were there with their hands out, he was not talking about white working people, but Black Americans and immigrants implying they don't work. Of course they make up less than 25% of the country. So who are the other 25%?

You might read this article on Not Being Charlie:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/10/1356555/-On-not-being-Charlie

She describes a race based political dynamic that is world wide.

Later I can find the links to other articles that deal with this from the false terrorist argument but I need to get out of here now.

So suffice it to say that while Social Security is critical, nothing will change until people wrap their minds around some of the core ideology that is running this country.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> "Kindness and acceptance". Then why are you here? Most COWS would know better. There is nothing kind or accepting about you.
> MOOOve on!


BrattyPatty
hatred and bigotry are trademarks of the right and kindness and acceptance those of us liberals.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Looking forward to twinkletoes getting into the ring for the 3rd time. What a pleasure it will be seeing him lose for the 3rd time. I guess he just wants to set some record however negative it is.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Was it really necessary for you two to mock this well meaning lady? Don't see any of the Conservatives reacting that way. Just another example of the difference between Conservatives and Angry Liberals; kindness and acceptance VS mockery and attack.


Excuse me? When have you ever displayed kindness and acceptance towards any liberals? What planetary system are you in?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I'm changing the subject. Two GIRLS and two boys! 14 weeks. My first grandDAUGHTERS! YAY!

Please say a prayer, send good vibes, think positively or do whatever you do. I am SO excited! 

Dil had her cerclage this week, so I've had Max all week. That's why I haven't been on much. Busy, busy.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm changing the subject. Two GIRLS and two boys! 14 weeks. My first grandDAUGHTERS! YAY!
> 
> Please say a prayer, send good vibes, think positively or do whatever you do. I am SO excited!
> 
> Dil had her cerclage this week, so I've had Max all week. That's why I haven't been on much. Busy, busy.


All the good vibes and prayers headed to you, the babies and your DIL.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm changing the subject. Two GIRLS and two boys! 14 weeks. My first grandDAUGHTERS! YAY!
> 
> Please say a prayer, send good vibes, think positively or do whatever you do. I am SO excited!
> 
> Dil had her cerclage this week, so I've had Max all week. That's why I haven't been on much. Busy, busy.


That is wonderful news! Get those knitting needles clicking, KFN!
Sending virtual hugs!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> All the good vibes and prayers headed to you, the babies and your DIL.


Thank you, Cindy! We need all the prayers and good vibes we can get.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> That is wonderful news! Get those knitting needles clicking, KFN!
> Sending virtual hugs!


Thanks, Patty! I'm working on it. I'll be able to change from white, to colors.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> All the good vibes and prayers headed to you, the babies and your DIL.


I have been thinking about you constantly, and those wee babies and their parents. I will keep on and I Pray everything works out. It is wonderful. Take Care and know you are in all our thoughts.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Very menial actions typical of any 8 year old.


*So, I guess all 8 year olds are going to hell*! _That was the attitude I was raised with and I will fight that idea till my last breath_.

Innocence, bahavior quite common to that age at different levels.  What child wouldn't act out when they are abused, verbally and physically, their whole lives. Instead of being loved and nurtured they are ridiculed and put down about every thing they do. There is no way out for them.

Some end up just as rigid as their parents. Through fear or possibly being brainwashed to believe all that crap.

Others turn away and know it is wrong instinctively. I believe Joey is the first and I know I am one who didn't accept the way Iwas treated and I turned away from that type of Religion. Luckily for me I had a true person who was the finest person I have ever known, to open other doors for me.

Many fundamentalist families carry on the lifestyle, generation after generation as they don't know any other way. I don't believe they are evil, I believe they know nothing else to believe. In their mind disbelieving would mean agreeing with evil. They are convinced (because, in my opinion) the are afraid to look at their religion in any other way. They are afraid to question. Some are kind and live good lives, but they are still absolutely convinced that anyone who doesn't accept their ideas will go to hell.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> lovethelake
> all of us were directing her to "unwatch". No need for her to attack us - she just needs to bow out.


Poor Pearl & lovethelake- LADIES! This is not the forum for your arguments, and spewing nastiness, and hatred. This is a place for sharing, knitting, crocheting, and friends who care about each other, and support one another. Your posts are disgusting, disturbing, disheartening, and sad. I fail to understand why you continue to snipe and attack each other repeatedly on a public forum. Please, take it some where else! : (

Aw, shaddup. No one forced you to come here.
Farmwoman wrote:
Poor Pearl & lovethelake- LADIES! This is not the forum for your arguments, and spewing nastiness, and hatred. This is a place for sharing, knitting, crocheting, and friends who care about each other, and support one another. Your posts are disgusting, disturbing, disheartening, and sad. I fail to understand why you continue to snipe and attack each other repeatedly on a public forum. Please, take it some where else! : (
_________________________________________________________________
Sorry, Hon, but this is the Chat section where any topic is fine. Time to turn around and go back to the farm - funny farm????? 
__________________________________________________________________
Ah. Always the perfect words. 
DGreen wrote:
Aw, shaddup. No one forced you to come here.

____________________________________________________________________
Bratty Patty: DGreen wrote:
Aw, shaddup. No one forced you to come here.

_____________________________________________

Somehow none of those comments tell her to bow out, they are just nasty. And I am not even upset with her original comment and it was directed at me. So why was there a need for those comments to be made by people that it did not affect? Just another example of AOLW with too much time on their hands


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Poor Pearl & lovethelake- LADIES! This is not the forum for your arguments, and spewing nastiness, and hatred. This is a place for sharing, knitting, crocheting, and friends who care about each other, and support one another. Your posts are disgusting, disturbing, disheartening, and sad. I fail to understand why you continue to snipe and attack each other repeatedly on a public forum. Please, take it some where else! : (
> 
> Aw, shaddup. No one forced you to come here.
> Farmwoman wrote:
> ...


You know, your posts don't make any sense 90% of the time. They are just there to stir, like the post about the Jewish prisoner. Not once did I ever say It *was* a person who was killed, I said it was quite possible, and even probable that it was a Jew who ended up in the ovens, as most of those in the Concentration camps did. You don't read the answers to your statement because you don't care whether you being truthful about what was really said. You don't know for sure either and I stated I didn't . You pick a fight over nothing.. You put your own twist on it .


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Poor Pearl & lovethelake- LADIES! This is not the forum for your arguments, and spewing nastiness, and hatred. This is a place for sharing, knitting, crocheting, and friends who care about each other, and support one another. Your posts are disgusting, disturbing, disheartening, and sad. I fail to understand why you continue to snipe and attack each other repeatedly on a public forum. Please, take it some where else! : (
> 
> Aw, shaddup. No one forced you to come here.
> Farmwoman wrote:
> ...


I notice you didn't quote my answer. Was I 'rude' to the poster? no.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

O


lovethelake said:


> Poor Pearl & lovethelake- LADIES! This is not the forum for your arguments, and spewing nastiness, and hatred. This is a place for sharing, knitting, crocheting, and friends who care about each other, and support one another. Your posts are disgusting, disturbing, disheartening, and sad. I fail to understand why you continue to snipe and attack each other repeatedly on a public forum. Please, take it some where else! : (
> 
> Aw, shaddup. No one forced you to come here.
> Farmwoman wrote:
> ...


PLEASE, go away.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> O
> 
> PLEASE, go away.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :XD: :XD: :shock: :shock:


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> *So, I guess all 8 year olds are going to hell*! _That was the attitude I was raised with and I will fight that idea till my last breath_.
> 
> Innocence, bahavior quite common to that age at different levels.  What child wouldn't act out when they are abused, verbally and physically, their whole lives. Instead of being loved and nurtured they are ridiculed and put down about every thing they do. There is no way out for them.
> 
> ...


My experience is that we will find a wide range of behavior in just about any group. Some people who make religion a core paradigm of they lives are more than rigid. They really live to either convert or destroy non-believers. Not sure they are evil as much as sick in their narrow mindedness. But some are vicious actively and will go after 'disbelievers' with an intent to destroy. Can that be called evil? It is complicated for sure.

What I do call evil are those with the power who conscientiously plan to destroy the interconnectedness beta people and will use and abuse people as they have no respect for them. They will set up false flags internationally and they will use law enforcement for entrapment in order to prove their agenda with no regard for ethics or the consequences on families and communities. I do think there are people who we classify as sociopathic/psychopathic who have no conscience whatsoever and they do evil things and many are evil in their intent.

One thing that bothers me is how people are intentionally limited so they can be controlled. They become pawns in bigger plans for which they are not decision-makers. But once controlled and subsumed to others ideology, they are beyond conversation with different ideas. They become horrified at being asked to consider other ideas. And they can become violent verbally or physically if they cannot close the door.

But it is not only religious fundamentalists that behave this way. We have liberals and even progressives like this. We have elected 'leaders' who are like this. And those people have a level of power that we poor peons will never have. They are the most dangerous in my book.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm changing the subject. Two GIRLS and two boys! 14 weeks. My first grandDAUGHTERS! YAY!
> 
> Please say a prayer, send good vibes, think positively or do whatever you do. I am SO excited!
> 
> Dil had her cerclage this week, so I've had Max all week. That's why I haven't been on much. Busy, busy.


KFN--zipping in and out I tend to miss things--like this major event in your life. 4 babies????!!!!! Oh that poor woman to have carried them all.

Please explain 'cerclage?' Too tired to do a search.

I am so happy for you multiple granny. My chrystal ball sees lots of busy needles in your future. All those marvelous little things to make for them.

Hope mom and the babies will do well. Such joy.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I have been thinking about you constantly, and those wee babies and their parents. I will keep on and I Pray everything works out. It is wonderful. Take Care and know you are in all our thoughts.


Thank you so much, Shirley!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> KFN--zipping in and out I tend to miss things--like this major event in your life. 4 babies????!!!!! Oh that poor woman to have carried them all.
> 
> Please explain 'cerclage?' Too tired to do a search.
> 
> ...


First, the babies haven't been born yet. Dil is 14 weeks along. A cerclage is a surgical procedure where they stitch up the cervix with a stitch that resembles a purse string. This is used for women with an incompetent cervix. Dil has had 3 miscarriages and lost triplets who were born prematurely. With the triplets, they did the cerclage too late. This time it was just in time. I do feel sorry for my dil. It will be very difficult for her. I'm trying to help out by going over in the mornings to do laundry and housework and watch Max. Then I take Max back to my house till his daddy gets off work. I just started doing that this week. It's exhausting but I'll do anything to assure a safe delivery.

I just started a PINK sunsuit but I'm dismayed because I need a 16" size 2 circular needle, but I only have 24". (The reason I stress PINK is because I have 3 grandsons and no granddaughters.) Maybe I'll start another and put on stitch holder til I get the 16". I see a trip to the yarn store, in my future.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Poor Pearl & lovethelake- LADIES! This is not the forum for your arguments, and spewing nastiness, and hatred. This is a place for sharing, knitting, crocheting, and friends who care about each other, and support one another. Your posts are disgusting, disturbing, disheartening, and sad. I fail to understand why you continue to snipe and attack each other repeatedly on a public forum. Please, take it some where else! : (
> 
> Aw, shaddup. No one forced you to come here.
> Farmwoman wrote:
> ...


And this is the example of a COW with too much time on her hoofs.
Find another pasture to drop your COW pies in.

Ladies, she just can't stay away from us. :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Poor Pearl & lovethelake- LADIES! This is not the forum for your arguments, and spewing nastiness, and hatred. This is a place for sharing, knitting, crocheting, and friends who care about each other, and support one another. Your posts are disgusting, disturbing, disheartening, and sad. I fail to understand why you continue to snipe and attack each other repeatedly on a public forum. Please, take it some where else! : (
> 
> Aw, shaddup. No one forced you to come here.
> Farmwoman wrote:
> ...


lovethelake
are you sitting in for KPG? Filing every comment anyone of us makes? The Lady came in to scold us and we reacted. All she had to do is zip it. Interesting that you left out my reply to her.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> You know, your posts don't make any sense 90% of the time. They are just there to stir, like the post about the Jewish prisoner. Not once did I ever say It *was* a person who was killed, I said it was quite possible, and even probable that it was a Jew who ended up in the ovens, as most of those in the Concentration camps did. You don't read the answers to your statement because you don't care whether you being truthful about what was really said. You don't know for sure either and I stated I didn't . You pick a fight over nothing.. You put your own twist on it .


Designer1234
well said. I like the fact that you are giving it straight and try no longer to tip toe around these folks. They do not understand when diplomacy is being used.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I notice you didn't quote my answer. Was I 'rude' to the poster? no.


Designer1234
mine was absent as well.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> And this is the example of a COW with too much time on her hoofs.
> Find another pasture to drop your COW pies in.
> 
> Ladies, she just can't stay away from us. quote]
> ...


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Folks another Fairytale is circulating on the cheesy thread. The Ferguson riots were planned and underwritten by G. Soros. Amazing Grace what stuff these people believe and spread. I think I will start a new thread claiming that I encountered Jesus in Walmart and that he was looking for
cream cheese and bagels. That story would equal most of theirs.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Designer1234
> well said. I like the fact that you are giving it straight and try no longer to tip toe around these folks. They do not understand when diplomacy is being used.


I will answer them if it is too far out. I get so sick of every word I say being twisted and attacked. When it is necessary I will answer both of them.

Tip toeing isn't working -- I am sick of their games. 
I avoided a fight because I knew I couldn't be as mean as they are -- but I have had it with both of them.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

"The new medical terms" is a thread that gives you a chuckle. May want to check it out.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I will answer them if it is too far out. I get so sick of every word I say being twisted and attacked. When it is necessary I will answer both of them.
> 
> Tip toeing isn't working -- I am sick of their games.
> I avoided a fight because I knew I couldn't be as mean as they are -- but I have had it with both of them.


I love your new avatar, Shirl!! Is that you?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Folks another Fairytale is circulating on the cheesy thread. The Ferguson riots were planned and underwritten by G. Soros. Amazing Grace what stuff these people believe and spread. I think I will start a new thread claiming that I encountered Jesus in Walmart and that he was looking for
> cream cheese and bagels. That story would equal most of theirs.


 :XD: :XD:


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

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Tax Records Show George Soros Funded the Ferguson Riots

redstatements.co/tax-records-show-george-soros-funded-the-ferguson-riots/

15 hours ago ... Tax records of the Soros funded group, Open Society, shows that Soros gave 33 million dollars in funding that kept the Ferguson riots going ...

BOOM! George Soros Caught Funding Ferguson Protests with $33 ...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPTJ4oN0Suk
3 min - 21 hours ago - Uploaded by DAHBOO77
George Soros Caught Funding Ferguson Protests with $33 Million to .... on The Sean Hannity ...
Search for videos of George Soros and The Ferguson riots
The Movers and Shakers Behind the Ferguson Riots | NoisyRoom.net

noisyroom.net/.../the-movers-and-shakers-behind-the-ferguson-riots/

Nov 30, 2014 ... The Ferguson riots are not what they seem and those behind them are ... organization of the George Soros linked Institute for Policy Studies.
George Soros gave $33 Million to groups fueling Ferguson riots |

theequagmire.com/.../george-soros-gave-33-million-to-groups-fueling- ferguson...

16 hours ago ... By Kelly Riddell - The Washington Times - Wednesday, January 14, 2015 There's a solitary man at the financial center of the Ferguson protest ...

The Ferguson/Soros Connections | Red Nation Rising

https://rednationrising.wordpress.com/2014/11/20/2563/

Nov 20, 2014 ... How does George Soros relate to the Mike Brown case in Ferguson? ... in Ferguson are by fanning the flames of hate and busing in rioters from ...
GEORGE SOROS FUNDED FERGUSON RIOTS | Burst Updates

https://burstupdates.wordpress.com/.../george-soros-funded-ferguson-...

GEORGE SOROS FUNDED FERGUSON RIOTS. Posted on January 15, 2015. 1. WT: Liberal billionaire gave at least $33 million in one year to groups that ...

[ More results from burstupdates.wordpress.com ]
Report  George Soros Funds Ferguson Rioters » Right Pundits

www.rightpundits.com/?p=12142

8 hours ago ... The Washington Times reports that Liberal-Progressive billionaire, George Soros financially supported many of the groups which protested the ...

Should George Soros be held criminally & civilly libel for ...

www.experienceproject.com/...George-Soros...Ferguson-Riots/4369358

14 hours ago ... ...Find answers to the question, Should George Soros Be Held Criminally & Civilly Libel For Ferguson Riots? from people who know at Ask ...
The Movers and Shakers Behind the Ferguson Riots | John ...

rightwingnews.com/culture/movers-shakers-behind-ferguson-riots/


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Web Results
> 
> George Soros gave $33-Million to Ferguson protesters/rioters.
> 
> ...


RUBBISH!! :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> RUBBISH!! :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


Tell the internet


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Tell the internet


Don't you mean the far right wing internet users? 
What's next?? :XD: :XD:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Web Results
> 
> rightwingnews.com/culture/movers-shakers-behind-ferguson-riots/


Take your right wing baloney and go back to D&P where you belong.

We don't like you here.

We don't want to hear right wing propaganda and lies.

Clear enough? If not just say so and I'm sure we can elaborate.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Take your right wing baloney and go back to D&P where you belong.
> 
> We don't like you here.
> 
> ...


I guess truth is scarey. Boo


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> Folks another Fairytale is circulating on the cheesy thread. The Ferguson riots were planned and underwritten by G. Soros. Amazing Grace what stuff these people believe and spread. I think I will start a new thread claiming that I encountered Jesus in Walmart and that he was looking for
> cream cheese and bagels. That story would equal most of theirs.


CB just came over and shat a bunch of right-wing propaganda, complete with references. Common thread is G. Soros pumped $33 million into supporting the Ferguson riots.

Geez. I knew the cost of living was going up, but riots are getting ridiculously expensive.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> CB just came over and shat a bunch of right-wing propaganda, complete with references. Common thread is G. Soros pumped $33 million into supporting the Ferguson riots.
> 
> Geez. I knew the cost of living was going up, but riots are getting ridiculously expensive.


Especially in small towns like Ferguson!

CB, I believe right wing papers, news stations, and internet posts as much as I believe that elephants can fly. They are one step below the National Enquirer.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I guess truth is scarey. Boo


When I see the far right project some truth I'll let you know


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Tell the internet


You must have learned by now that not everything you read anywhere is the truth. The right-wing has demonized George Soros the same way some of your friends think liberal = Satan. Can't you see by doing a quick Google search that this is all right-wing propaganda? Don't you question this stuff when the only place you find it is in right-wing blogs or news sources? You have to look for some balanced news sources and look in more than one place before you accept something as "truth." The Lord has given us brains and the power of reasoning and language to read and weigh information and to figure out the difference between fact and Inflammatory rhetoric. What was the purpose of posting all that stuff? From my standpoint it looks pretty much like your intent was simply to rile the people who frequent this thread. Why do you want to provoke people?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> You must have learned by now that not everything you read anywhere is the truth. The right-wing has demonized George Soros the same way some of your friends think liberal = Satan. Can't you see by doing a quick Google search that this is all right-wing propaganda? Don't you question this stuff when the only place you find it is in right-wing blogs or news sources? You have to look for some balanced news sources and look in more than one place before you accept something as "truth." The Lord has given us brains and the power of reasoning and language to read and weigh information and to figure out the difference between fact and Inflammatory rhetoric. What was the purpose of posting all that stuff? From my standpoint it looks pretty much like your intent was simply to rile the people who frequent this thread. Why do you want to provoke people?


You're not expecting an answer, are you? My guess is you won't hear a peep...


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> You must have learned by now that not everything you read anywhere is the truth. The right-wing has demonized George Soros the same way some of your friends think liberal = Satan. Can't you see by doing a quick Google search that this is all right-wing propaganda? Don't you question this stuff when the only place you find it is in right-wing blogs or news sources? You have to look for some balanced news sources and look in more than one place before you accept something as "truth." The Lord has given us brains and the power of reasoning and language to read and weigh information and to figure out the difference between fact and Inflammatory rhetoric. What was the purpose of posting all that stuff? From my standpoint it looks pretty much like your intent was simply to rile the people who frequent this thread. Why do you want to provoke people?


Hi Cookie!!! Long time no see!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Hi Cookie!!! Long time no see!


Hi Bratty. I'm here. Just trying to use some of my time in other ways. I've been watching a lot of NBA games, day-dreaming, doing nothing, sleeping until 7 am instead of six, and relaxing. Impressive, huh?

It's necessary to use simple, concrete, even -tempered responses. I'm trying to be thoughtful and polite. OK, yes, it's abnormal for me, but the other language never worked, did it? I'm practicing control, nice, even brain activity, and a reduced pulse rate. How am I doing?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Hi Bratty. I'm here. Just trying to use some of my time in other ways. I've been watching a lot of NBA games, day-dreaming, doing nothing, sleeping until 7 am instead of six, and relaxing. Impressive, huh?
> 
> It's necessary to use simple, concrete, even -tempered responses. I'm trying to be thoughtful and polite. OK, yes, it's abnormal for me, but the other language never worked, did it? I'm practicing control, nice, even brain activity, and a reduced pulse rate. How am I doing?


You are doing just fine, Cookie. :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> You are doing just fine, Cookie. :thumbup: :thumbup:


Thank you.
I'm also untangling a massive yarn barf and working on a jigsaw puzzle, which I haven't done in years. I'm tempted to just cut away the mound of tangle, but That means I would have wasted the time I already spent on it.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Thank you.
> I'm also untangling a massive yarn barf and working on a jigsaw puzzle, which I haven't done in years. I'm tempted to just cut away the mound of tangle, but That means I would have wasted the time I already spent on it.


I have no patience for yarn barf. Fortunately for me, my husband does!
I have Brynn with me 5 days a week now. I can't believe how fast time has gone since she was born. I am working on puzzles, but not of the jigsaw kind. LOL


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> You do your fair share of attacking others, as do I, so I doubt very much that LTL's post bothered you in the least . LTL did not state that she was not going to attack anyone, Designer did. Designer is the one that pretends to be so innocent and gets attacked for no reason. Designer didn't make it beyond a day before she made another one of her snarky comments. I will repeat what I have said in the past, Designer's words say one thing and her actions another.
> 
> Just sayin'.


you are the master of snarky remarks. I have so little respect for you and your opinions, and it is so obvious that if you don't have something to complain about you make something up. Over and over. You started attacking me when I came back to these threads between my workshop duties which were just about full time. It has never changed. You have a bee in your bonnet and it isn't very attractive Solo. In a million years I will never catch up (as if I wanted to) to your vicious, deep seated jealousy and hatred of every post I make. You are so shallow and so nasty that it boggles the mind. Have your fun. Just sayin.

We all know how absolutely offensive you are when you answer any of my posts - as I rarely address you as I am now.

You would think you might be jealous? hmmm. Or maybe it is lack of empathy with anyone who has accomplished some things that you will never accomplish == Just saying


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> you are the master of snarky remarks. I have so little respect for you and your opinions, and it is so obvious that if your don't have something to complain about you make something up. Over and over. You started attacking me when I came back to these threads between my workshop duties which were just about full time. It has never changed. You have a bee in your bonnet and it isn't very attractive Solo. In a million years I will never catch up (as if I wanted to) to your vicious, deep seated jealousy and hatred of every post I make. You are so shallow and so nasty that it boggles the mind. Have your fun. Just sayin.
> 
> We all know how absolutely offensive you are when you answer any of my posts - as I rarely address you as I am now.
> 
> You would think you might be jealous? hmmm. Or maybe it is lack of empathy with anyone who has accomplished some things that you will never accomplish == Just saying


Cool photo.

I agree about Solo. Always nasty. Always.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> Thank you.
> I'm also untangling a massive yarn barf and working on a jigsaw puzzle, which I haven't done in years. I'm tempted to just cut away the mound of tangle, but That means I would have wasted the time I already spent on it.


I love untangling yarn. Don't know whether it's a gift or a curse.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Cool photo.
> 
> I agree about Solo. Always nasty. Always.


My son took the photo on Lake Louise last winter. they cut out a skating rink and have ice carvings all over the place. This one I found interesting. Thanks - time I stopped taking her insults.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I love your new avatar, Shirl!! Is that you?


Yes -- when I was very small (it says on the photo that I was three --) that is quite a few years ago to say the least.

and I mean a lot of years ago


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> My son took the photo on Lake Louise last winter. they cut out a skating rink and have ice carvings all over the place. This one I found interesting. Thanks - time I stopped taking her insults.


Give 'em hell, Designer. You don't have to tolerate insults. None of us do.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Hi Bratty. I'm here. Just trying to use some of my time in other ways. I've been watching a lot of NBA games, day-dreaming, doing nothing, sleeping until 7 am instead of six, and relaxing. Impressive, huh?
> 
> It's necessary to use simple, concrete, even -tempered responses. I'm trying to be thoughtful and polite. OK, yes, it's abnormal for me, but the other language never worked, did it? I'm practicing control, nice, even brain activity, and a reduced pulse rate. How am I doing?


You are doing well -- It sure doesn't seem to work for me. I have actually had it with both of them. No holds barred from now on until I get sick of the whole business again. but I will make my own mind up as to when I want to answer and when I want to ignore their crap.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> My son took the photo on Lake Louise last winter. they cut out a skating rink and have ice carvings all over the place. This one I found interesting. Thanks - time I stopped taking her insults.


Your son has gift with the camera! What a beautiful picture.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Yes -- when I was very small (it says on the photo that I was three --) that is quite a few years ago to say the least.
> 
> and I mean a lot of years ago


Too cute! I have one of me and my brother at about the same age. Want to see?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Too cute! I have one of me and my brother at about the same age. Want to see?


Yes!!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

T


Designer1234 said:


> you are the master of snarky remarks. I have so little respect for you and your opinions, and it is so obvious that if your don't have something to complain about you make something up. Over and over. You started attacking me when I came back to these threads between my workshop duties which were just about full time. It has never changed. You have a bee in your bonnet and it isn't very attractive Solo. In a million years I will never catch up (as if I wanted to) to your vicious, deep seated jealousy and hatred of every post I make. You are so shallow and so nasty that it boggles the mind. Have your fun. Just sayin.
> 
> We all know how absolutely offensive you are when you answer any of my posts - as I rarely address you as I am now.
> 
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Web Results
> 
> George Soros gave $33-Million to Ferguson protesters/rioters.
> 
> rightwingnews.com/culture/movers-shakers-behind-ferguson-riots/


Nonsense! And the fact that you repeated the same item (which clearly originated in the same source) makes it worse than nonsense.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Yes!!


Just to lighten things up a little.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I guess truth is scarey. Boo


No, lies are.

Be real: could the riots really have cost $33 million? Soros may be rich, but he's too smart to throw his money away.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Especially in small towns like Ferguson!
> 
> CB, I believe right wing papers, news stations, and internet posts as much as I believe that elephants can fly. They are one step below the National Enquirer.


Two steps, Patty.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Too cute! I have one of me and my brother at about the same age. Want to see?


YES! I am trying to find one of my sister who is in the midst of alzheimers and is leaving us -- so sad. I will find it and post it.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Two steps, Patty.


Whale dung?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> YES! I am trying to find one of my sister who is in the midst of alzheimers and is leaving us -- so sad. I will find it and post it.


How beautiful! Love the portrait.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> you are the master of snarky remarks. I have so little respect for you and your opinions, and it is so obvious that if you don't have something to complain about you make something up. Over and over. You started attacking me when I came back to these threads between my workshop duties which were just about full time. It has never changed. You have a bee in your bonnet and it isn't very attractive Solo. In a million years I will never catch up (as if I wanted to) to your vicious, deep seated jealousy and hatred of every post I make. You are so shallow and so nasty that it boggles the mind. Have your fun. Just sayin.
> 
> We all know how absolutely offensive you are when you answer any of my posts - as I rarely address you as I am now.
> 
> You would think you might be jealous? hmmm. Or maybe it is lack of empathy with anyone who has accomplished some things that you will never accomplish == Just saying


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Just to lighten things up a little.


I *love* it!! you were so cute. How old were you both?

Anyone else have some childhood pictures??


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Yes -- when I was very small (it says on the photo that I was three --) that is quite a few years ago to say the least.
> 
> and I mean a lot of years ago


You were adorable. And you still look like that in some ways.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Just to lighten things up a little.


What cuties. Did your brother always wear a fedora?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> http://racialequity.org/docs/Sustaining%20Racial%20Justice%20Action%20inPhilanthropyFergusonBeyond.pdf
> 
> _...More recently, following the killing of Michael Brown by Officer Darren Wilson and the subsequent protests and militarized responses in Ferguson, PRE convened a meeting of activists and funders, sponsored by the Ford Foundation, W.K. Kellogg Foundation and Open Society Foundations, to tackle the questions of how to address this tragedy and seize the moment in a strategic way for our longer term racial justice goals. How do we ensure that needed racial justice organizing and infrastructure work continues and is strongly supported, so organizations and communities can effectively and proactively respond when there are racialized flashpoints? How do we both address immediate problems, as well as frame solutions structurally for more significant and lasting change? ..._
> 
> George Soros funds the Tide Foundation, Philanthropic Initiative for Racial Equity,and Open Society Foundations and others. All three were organizing the protests in Ferguson. With the millions of dollars Soros has provided to these organizations, he funded the protests in Ferguson.


And he funds them with the goal of racial justice? Heavens to cream cheese, what a monster!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I *love* it!! you were so cute. How old were you both?
> 
> Anyone else have some childhood pictures??


I was a year and a half old, my brother was 4.

See the palm tree in the background? One of my earliest memories is of that tree when my father was trimming it and found a frond that was covered with ladybugs. He called me over and showed them to me. The recollection is very clear.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> What cuties. Did your brother always wear a fedora?


I think it was Easter and he was decked out. He wears a ball cap now to avoid sunburn - he's bald as an egg.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You were adorable. And you still look like that in some ways.


I agree, the years have been kind to Designer.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> YES! I am trying to find one of my sister who is in the midst of alzheimers and is leaving us -- so sad. I will find it and post it.


Your sister in that picture looks like one of the child actresses of the time. Maybe Peggy Ann Garner. How beautiful. And now how sad.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> And he funds them with the goal of racial justice? Heavens to cream cheese, what a monster!


Evidently some of the ladies of the extreme right don't agree that racial injustice exists. They're all thugs, you know. :roll:


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Web Results
> 
> George Soros gave $33-Million to Ferguson protesters/rioters.
> 
> ...


Country Bumpkins
total garbage but then what else do you buy into. Total fabrication. I have it from sources in the Ferguson Administration and they would be quick to grab something like this if it was true.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> How beautiful! Love the portrait.


She was very beautiful and I always tried to keep her from the chaos. She was the apple of Dad's eye. I looked like my Mom who died when Marjorie was one and he had not treated her well. My Grandmother (Nana) felt it was the reason he couldn't bear to have to look at me. We made up in some ways before he died but we never had a very good 
relationship. We were played off against each other. Marj and I cleared the air when I went down to visit her when she was in the 3rd or 4th year of Alzheimers as she remembered more than I did of our childhood. We cleared the air and we finally were fully sisters.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Just to lighten things up a little.


DGreen
adorable.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Your sister in that picture looks like one of the child actresses of the time. Maybe Peggy Ann Garner. How beautiful. And now how sad.


Actually she did look like her. We all noticed that and we used to teaser her.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

This is the only picture I have from my early childhood. I was almost 5 yrs old here. I am the second from the right in front. This was taken in front of our beach house in Breezy Point, NY. The tall girl in the back as well as the girls to my right and left are my cousins. My sister is on the back left and the 2 red headed freckle faced boys are my brothers.
I can see my grand daughter in my face there. Poor kid!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> T
> 
> 
> Designer1234 said:
> ...


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Country Bumpkins
> total garbage but then what else do you buy into. Total fabrication. I have it from sources in the Ferguson Administration and they would be quick to grab something like this if it was true.


Oh please CB - what a crock


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's such a shame the wounds done to children by adults who never grew up. IMHO



Designer1234 said:


> She was very beautiful and I always tried to keep her from the chaos. She was the apple of Dad's eye. I looked like my Mom who died when Marjorie was one and he had not treated her well. My Grandmother (Nana) felt it was the reason he couldn't bear to have to look at me. We made up in some ways before he died but we never had a very good
> relationship. We were played off against each other. Marj and I cleared the air when I went down to visit her when she was in the 3rd or 4th year of Alzheimers as she remembered more than I did of our childhood. We cleared the air and we finally were fully sisters.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Brynn knows she's a lucky girl.



BrattyPatty said:


> This is the only picture I have from my early childhood. I was almost 5 yrs old here. I am the second from the right in front. This was taken in front of our beach house in Breezy Point, NY. The tall girl in the back as well as the girls to my right and left are my cousins. My sister is on the back left and the 2 red headed freckle faced boys are my brothers.
> I can see my gran daughter in my face there. Poor kid!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I am feeling better every day. Final results today, No permamemt damage to the kidney and I am doing quite well. New meds and doing some things differently. Pat is a tower of strength and help to me so he makes life easier. I went to the seniors craft club this morning and really enjoyed myself.


What a treat for Seniors' Craft Club!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> What a treat for Seniors' Craft Club!


Ain't nothin' like our dame! Wasn't that from some musical? I remember another song from it. "I'm Gonna Wash That Man Right of MY Hair"
I can't remember the name of the musical though.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

<<<whispering....but some things are so easy to mock, and the clever mockery reveals truths to be considered.>>>>



lovethelake said:


> Was it really necessary for you two to mock this well meaning lady? Don't see any of the Conservatives reacting that way. Just another example of the difference between Conservatives and Angry Liberals; kindness and acceptance VS mockery and attack.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Ain't nothin' like our dame! Wasn't that from some musical? I remember another song from it. "I'm Gonna Wash That Man Right of MY Hair"
> I can't remember the name of the musical though.


South Pacific


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> South Pacific


Thanks, Cookie! That was driving me crazy for a few minutes there!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Try to rest when Max does. Must be great exhausting fun. I'm sending positive thoughts your way. Best to all the family. Keep us in the loop.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm changing the subject. Two GIRLS and two boys! 14 weeks. My first grandDAUGHTERS! YAY!
> 
> Please say a prayer, send good vibes, think positively or do whatever you do. I am SO excited!
> 
> Dil had her cerclage this week, so I've had Max all week. That's why I haven't been on much. Busy, busy.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I *love* it!! you were so cute. How old were you both?
> 
> Anyone else have some childhood pictures??


I posted mine on page 81. It's the only one I have.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I am feeling better every day. Final results today, No permamemt damage to the kidney and I am doing quite well. New meds and doing some things differently. Pat is a tower of strength and help to me so he makes life easier. I went to the seniors craft club this morning and really enjoyed myself.


That is great news, Shirley! Your Pat sounds like a wonderful husband.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> Poor Pearl & lovethelake- LADIES! This is not the forum for your arguments, and spewing nastiness, and hatred. This is a place for sharing, knitting, crocheting, and friends who care about each other, and support one another. Your posts are disgusting, disturbing, disheartening, and sad. I fail to understand why you continue to snipe and attack each other repeatedly on a public forum. Please, take it some where else! : (
> 
> Aw, shaddup. No one forced you to come here.
> Farmwoman wrote:
> ...


I think you're right. Sometimes it's best to be direct. Go join farmlady somewhere you'll both enjoy better. Good bye.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Evidently some of the ladies of the extreme right don't agree that racial injustice exists. They're all thugs, you know. :roll:


Especially the ones who've been killed.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Actually she did look like her. We all noticed that and we used to teaser her.


The resemblance is there.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> First, the babies haven't been born yet. Dil is 14 weeks along. A cerclage is a surgical procedure where they stitch up the cervix with a stitch that resembles a purse string. This is used for women with an incompetent cervix. Dil has had 3 miscarriages and lost triplets who were born prematurely. With the triplets, they did the cerclage too late. This time it was just in time. I do feel sorry for my dil. It will be very difficult for her. I'm trying to help out by going over in the mornings to do laundry and housework and watch Max. Then I take Max back to my house till his daddy gets off work. I just started doing that this week. It's exhausting but I'll do anything to assure a safe delivery.
> 
> I just started a PINK sunsuit but I'm dismayed because I need a 16" size 2 circular needle, but I only have 24". (The reason I stress PINK is because I have 3 grandsons and no granddaughters.) Maybe I'll start another and put on stitch holder til I get the 16". I see a trip to the yarn store, in my future.


Look for Chiagoo online, appx $7-9. They'll deliver to your door.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> This is the only picture I have from my early childhood. I was almost 5 yrs old here. I am the second from the right in front. This was taken in front of our beach house in Breezy Point, NY. The tall girl in the back as well as the girls to my right and left are my cousins. My sister is on the back left and the 2 red headed freckle faced boys are my brothers.
> I can see my grand daughter in my face there. Poor kid!


That is a great family picture. You don't look very happy to be there, but that blonde singing next to you must have been annoying.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Great idea Huck. We could see how creative we could be with rumors. After all, we've been subjected to so many by the moo COWS.



Huckleberry said:


> Folks another Fairytale is circulating on the cheesy thread. The Ferguson riots were planned and underwritten by G. Soros. Amazing Grace what stuff these people believe and spread. I think I will start a new thread claiming that I encountered Jesus in Walmart and that he was looking for
> cream cheese and bagels. That story would equal most of theirs.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Go get em Tiger! They've earned it.



Designer1234 said:


> I will answer them if it is too far out. I get so sick of every word I say being twisted and attacked. When it is necessary I will answer both of them.
> 
> Tip toeing isn't working -- I am sick of their games.
> I avoided a fight because I knew I couldn't be as mean as they are -- but I have had it with both of them.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> I think you're right. Sometimes it's best to be direct. Go join farmlady somewhere you'll both enjoy better. Good bye.


Most COWS do enjoy farms......


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I tried Search function and couldn't find it. Do you know who opened it?



Huckleberry said:


> "The new medical terms" is a thread that gives you a chuckle. May want to check it out.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That's quite a pile you've gathered. Keep it.



Country Bumpkins said:


> Web Results
> 
> George Soros gave $33-Million to Ferguson protesters/rioters.
> 
> ...


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> That is a great family picture. You don't look very happy to be there, but that blonde singing next to you must have been annoying.


Actually the sun was in our eyes and the sand we were standing in was hot. I remember that day like it was just yesterday. The one who is singing is my cousin and also my best friend.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Take your right wing baloney and go back to D&P where you belong.
> 
> We don't like you here.
> 
> ...


She won't get that either, but we'll have the pleasure of placing it on her door mat.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> CB just came over and shat a bunch of right-wing propaganda, complete with references. Common thread is G. Soros pumped $33 million into supporting the Ferguson riots.
> 
> Geez. I knew the cost of living was going up, but riots are getting ridiculously expensive.


That's just because the RWN's insist on traveling First Class+. They do have their standards, especially when they aren't paying for it.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> Hi Bratty. I'm here. Just trying to use some of my time in other ways. I've been watching a lot of NBA games, day-dreaming, doing nothing, sleeping until 7 am instead of six, and relaxing. Impressive, huh?
> 
> It's necessary to use simple, concrete, even -tempered responses. I'm trying to be thoughtful and polite. OK, yes, it's abnormal for me, but the other language never worked, did it? I'm practicing control, nice, even brain activity, and a reduced pulse rate. How am I doing?


I'm trying to learn from you. Good work.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

South Pacific.



BrattyPatty said:


> Ain't nothin' like our dame! Wasn't that from some musical? I remember another song from it. "I'm Gonna Wash That Man Right of MY Hair"
> I can't remember the name of the musical though.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knit Crazy liked killing chickens on the farm and wished she'd gotten to butcher pigs. Hardly ever hear that from anyone.



BrattyPatty said:


> Most COWS do enjoy farms......


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> For anyone on this thread that thinks this is just rubbish. either has not or will not read this web site. Their minds are totally closed to what is really going on in this country. No one has said George Soros planned the riots, only that he financed them. His millions have been given to many organizations that organized the protests, that soon became riots. Therefore, he financed the protests.
> 
> *George Soros funds Ferguson protests, hopes to spur civil action*
> 
> ...


Blah Blah Blah. It's over, joey. Quit.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I guess truth is scarey. Boo


Interesting you should say that because when you posted some very inaccurate information on the religions in Sri Lanka all you could do when I posted the correct information was to reply with an insult to people who are non Christian. It was said that you were upset because I dared to post information on D & P thread. So, yes, the truth can be a scary thing, especially for you.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> When I see the far right project some truth I'll let you know


But they will never acknowledge that they have posted misinformation. This poster stated that Sri Lanka was 99 % Muslim and 1 % Christian. I posted the correct figures

Sri Lanka's population practices a variety of religions. 
As of the 2011 census 
70.2% of Sri Lankans were Theravada Buddhists, 
12.6% were Hindus, 
9.7% were Muslims and 
7.4% Christians (6.1% Roman Catholic and 1.3% other Christian).

and this poster replied with the following insult

I' m sorry I should have said 7.4% Christians (6.1% Roman Catholic and 1.3% other Christian) and the rest of the population Heathen.

plus a bible quote.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You're not expecting an answer, are you? My guess is you won't hear a peep...


They will never acknowledge the fact that they have posted incorrect and misleading information.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Yes -- when I was very small (it says on the photo that I was three --) that is quite a few years ago to say the least.
> 
> and I mean a lot of years ago


You were, and still are, a real cutie pie. I can see you in the photo of you as a child. :thumbup:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Too cute! I have one of me and my brother at about the same age. Want to see?


Yes please.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Just to lighten things up a little.


I love the hat your brother is wearing.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> YES! I am trying to find one of my sister who is in the midst of alzheimers and is leaving us -- so sad. I will find it and post it.


It is so very hard if you have a close family member with alzheimer's. All anyone can do is to be there, hold their hand and tell them you love them. When they talk just go along with the flow of their conversation. If they talk about their childhood, talk to them as if those days are still here, just talk about what they talk about. When my sister was in the hospice dying from a brain tumour she had virtually lost the power of speech and what she did say was only gibberish. She would just say "Wibbly, wobbly, wibbly, wobbly woo, and the three hail marys." I do not know why she said "and the three hail marys" as it was the only intelligent words she would say. There was a lady who sat at her dining table and she was suffering from alzheimer's. Strangely, she remembered and recognised me every time I visited but she did not remember or recognise her family. I would chat to her and we would wander around Perth as it was in the 1940s. I could remember Perth from that period and to her it was Perth of today. The staff said I was the only person she wanted to talk to, but I think it was just because I could enter into her world and share memories with her. But, treasure your memories of your sister from better days.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Call it what you want. I ignore it.



joeysomma said:


> Your mind is closed!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> They will never acknowledge the fact that they have posted incorrect and misleading information.


And they will call us closed-minded when we ignore them.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

bratty, Too cute!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Try to rest when Max does. Must be great exhausting fun. I'm sending positive thoughts your way. Best to all the family. Keep us in the loop.


Thanks, dame! 
The closest we come to rest is sitting on the floor playing with buttons and beads. He loves them. I try to think of things like that, that he doesn't do at home. We go in the dark rooms and shine flashlights or twist pipe cleaners into shapes. I've got lots of stamps and stickers, stuff like that. Right now, my biggest problem is that my legs hurt, from getting up and down from the floor, a million times a day. I'm going to have to think of more table activities or maybe build up the muscles in my legs. But it is great exhausting fun!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Look for Chiagoo online, appx $7-9. They'll deliver to your door.


I picked up some Clover bamboos last night, at JoAnns. I got a couple of inches done. I've heard that Chiagoo's are great but I was impatient.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Your mind is closed!


HER mind is closed?? 
Go read what the Koch brothers have done to destroy this country and government. If you can't find anything to read, let me know. In the meantime look up the word "propaganda."


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I love the hat your brother is wearing.


Me, too. He looks downright dapper.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

damemary said:


> I tried Search function and couldn't find it. Do you know who opened it?


http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-312691-1.html


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> but I think it was just because I could enter into her world and share memories with her. But, treasure your memories of your sister from better days.


I am the only one my sister ever really talks to. We are on the west coast and she is in Ottawa but sometimes we have talked for close to an hour on the phone. I am the only one who remembers what she remembers - (which is also leaving her). I know she isn't sure who I am until I say, 'do you remember when and a childhood story. Her voice lights up and she remembers much more about that time (including the bad times and including the fact that we were played off against each other.) Finally we put to rest a lot of the bad stuff which came between us all our lives. She and I have cleared the air, and I am so thankful that that happened.

Once in awhile she knows me NOW but less and less. Last year she called me about 20 times wishing me a happy birthday. Or Merry Christmas. Had no recollection of the previous calls and messages. It is so difficult for my niece and nephew. She remembers nothing of what happened l5 minutes ago.

They take her out for a pedicure and a manicure and I get a picture. I call her and ask her what she did today and she remembers none of it. She says the 'kids' never visit her and one of them is there every day. So sad. It is a dreadful
disease.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> It is so very hard if you have a close family member with alzheimer's. All anyone can do is to be there, hold their hand and tell them you love them. When they talk just go along with the flow of their conversation. If they talk about their childhood, talk to them as if those days are still here, just talk about what they talk about. When my sister was in the hospice dying from a brain tumour she had virtually lost the power of speech and what she did say was only gibberish. She would just say "Wibbly, wobbly, wibbly, wobbly woo, and the three hail marys." I do not know why she said "and the three hail marys" as it was the only intelligent words she would say. There was a lady who sat at her dining table and she was suffering from alzheimer's. Strangely, she remembered and recognised me every time I visited but she did not remember or recognise her family. I would chat to her and we would wander around Perth as it was in the 1940s. I could remember Perth from that period and to her it was Perth of today. The staff said I was the only person she wanted to talk to, but I think it was just because I could enter into her world and share memories with her. But, treasure your memories of your sister from better days.


Lost my mom to brain tumor too. It was hard wasn't it.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> I tried Search function and couldn't find it. Do you know who opened it?


damemary
Ann DeGray opened it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> That's quite a pile you've gathered. Keep it.


It will make excellent fertilizer this spring.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Most COWS do enjoy farms......


Omigod, what a mouth. Do you know where that mouth has been?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Actually the sun was in our eyes and the sand we were standing in was hot. I remember that day like it was just yesterday. The one who is singing is my cousin and also my best friend.


Seriously, most pictures of me that young show me frowning because I hate the sun in my eyes, and the sun had to be there or you couldn't see the faces. Pity the picture wasn't in color so we could see your red hair.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> That's just because the RWN's insist on traveling First Class+. They do have their standards, especially when they aren't paying for it.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> So you corrected the information. Did anyone call what you posted "Rubbish?" So it was accepted. What else do you want?


How about you ladies from D&P stop posting such rubbish in the first place?

You can't possibly think we will agree with anything from your right-wing propaganda sites, so what's the point?

1. To "stick it up our noses"
2. To start an argument


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Knit Crazy liked killing chickens on the farm and wished she'd gotten to butcher pigs. Hardly ever hear that from anyone.


Not as good as that new Iowa senator, who campaigned on her experience castrating pigs. I bet KC would have liked that even better.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> Lost my mom to brain tumor too. It was hard wasn't it.


Thankfully it was only six months from when she was diagnosed to when she died, but she deteriorated very rapidly. The said the tumour was inoperable. But her children still made her undergo chemo treatment. She would not take the drugs, she would pretend to swallow them and when the nurse had gone she would spit the tablets out. The cleaners did not seem to notice the tablets on the floor of the ward. When they took her down for radiotherapy she would not lie still so they could not give it to her. She was lucid enough to lodge her complaints even though she could not speak rationally. But her children insisted she undergo the treatment. In the end the doctor stepped in and told her children that she would not be forced to undergo any further treatments as they would not prolong her life.

My father also died from a brain tumour as did one of his sisters.

My other two sisters are not getting on a bit, one is 87 years and the other 86 years. They are talking about going on another cruise, a 19 day cruise. I do not like the idea of floating around the ocean on a converted sheep carrier with a mob of strangers, with the added option of drowning. Those cruise ships are just too big, they remind me of the sheep carriers they use for the live sheep trade to the middle east. They do not look safe, how many of them have run into trouble and sunk?


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

tamarque said:


> Let me come back to my central piece of the problem It is RACISM. This entire country was founded on it. It has morphed in some ways but that is to be expected as the country as developed economically and materially. But the core attitudes, beliefs, and power relations have not changed 1 iota in 300 yrs--except to get sneakier. The entire Tea Party was organized based on racial fear and prejudice.
> 
> Remember the Southern Strategy designed to change the South from Blue to Red? It was all based on racial fear and prejudice. Today the Tea Party uses the same kind of bigotry and fear mongering to organize. And those people, the Fox News kind of people, buy into it. They support privatizing Social Security because they believe Blacks don't deserve it.
> They still pull Reagan's Welfare Queen clap trap out of the dust bin to attack social services. When Romney attacked the 47% who were there with their hands out, he was not talking about white working people, but Black Americans and immigrants implying they don't work. Of course they make up less than 25% of the country. So who are the other 25%?
> ...


I'm not sure racism is the only force at work, and that's the deliberate destruction of the middle class, which has long been a cherished part of the Republican/Conservative/1% agenda. Not only does this create a barrier to African-American economic success, it also targets a portion of the white population in this country. The goal is to get to the point were there are only the rich and the poor, and the face of the poor will be multi-colored. There may be fewer white faces in the lower class, but I'm not entirely sure of that. Greed is color blind.

If the wealth of this country is solely in the hands of the white patriarchy, and that class is made up entirely of the 1%, there are going to be a lot of white people who will fall into the poor class. They're already there, in a sense, if you look at the massive amount of credit card debt which almost entirely belongs to the middle class. Most of those in the middle class are already wage slaves, living from pay check to pay check. They only look like they're middle class, and when they eventually have to deal with that debt, they will be proven to be poor.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> For anyone on this thread that thinks this is just rubbish. either has not or will not read this web site. Their minds are totally closed to what is really going on in this country. No one has said George Soros planned the riots, only that he financed them. His millions have been given to many organizations that organized the protests, that soon became riots. Therefore, he financed the protests.
> 
> *George Soros funds Ferguson protests, hopes to spur civil action*
> 
> ...


As long as your sources are only right-wing ones, there's no need to read what they say. They simply are not believable.

The Washington Times is very right wing. You can try again, but I bet you find nothing.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

From Tamarque regarding the New World Order: "The NWO is the name that the Bushes used. It is a program to take over the world under US hegemonic control. It is not a theory despite the fact that you are uncomfortable with it."

What you say is a fabrication. The context in which he used this term includes no hint of US control of the world. 

In a January 16, 1991 speech, he identified the opportunity to build a New World Order, 


where the rule of law governs the conduct of nations, and in which a credible United Nations can use its peacekeeping role to fulfill the promise and vision of the UNs founders. 

World peace. What a sinister idea. (sarcasm)

Exactly how does that idea translate into what you suggest? If you have a verifiable quote that validates what you claim, please provide it along with the source.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'm trying to learn from you. Good work.


I have tried that - it doesn't seem to work with some of them. I am trying to use restraint with them, but it just shows them I won't fight so they increase the nastiness. I am not going to do that all the time. Cookie you are doing a good job. You seem to be able to accomplish it . I don't do as good a job.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Thankfully it was only six months from when she was diagnosed to when she died, but she deteriorated very rapidly. The said the tumour was inoperable. But her children still made her undergo chemo treatment. She would not take the drugs, she would pretend to swallow them and when the nurse had gone she would spit the tablets out. The cleaners did not seem to notice the tablets on the floor of the ward. When they took her down for radiotherapy she would not lie still so they could not give it to her. She was lucid enough to lodge her complaints even though she could not speak rationally. But her children insisted she undergo the treatment. In the end the doctor stepped in and told her children that she would not be forced to undergo any further treatments as they would not prolong her life.
> 
> My father also died from a brain tumour as did one of his sisters.
> 
> My other two sisters are not getting on a bit, one is 87 years and the other 86 years. They are talking about going on another cruise, a 19 day cruise. I do not like the idea of floating around the ocean on a converted sheep carrier with a mob of strangers, with the added option of drowning. Those cruise ships are just too big, they remind me of the sheep carriers they use for the live sheep trade to the middle east. They do not look safe, how many of them have run into trouble and sunk?


I'm impressed that your sisters are still out and about and cruising at their ages! I share your concerns about the safety of those massive ships, though. I would not get on one.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I am the only one my sister ever really talks to. We are on the west coast and she is in Ottawa but sometimes we have talked for close to an hour on the phone. I am the only one who remembers what she remembers - (which is also leaving her). I know she isn't sure who I am until I say, 'do you remember when and a childhood story. Her voice lights up and she remembers much more about that time (including the bad times and including the fact that we were played off against each other.) Finally we put to rest a lot of the bad stuff which came between us all our lives. She and I have cleared the air, and I am so thankful that that happened.
> 
> Once in awhile she knows me NOW but less and less. Last year she called me about 20 times wishing me a happy birthday. Or Merry Christmas. Had no recollection of the previous calls and messages. It is so difficult for my niece and nephew. She remembers nothing of what happened l5 minutes ago.
> 
> ...


It is very hard, you just have to be there in their moment of time. These will become treasured gems to remember, the happy little moments you share together. Smile and keep these precious moments in your heart.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> It is very hard, you just have to be there in their moment of time. These will become treasured gems to remember, the happy little moments you share together. Smile and keep these precious moments in your heart.


That is exactly what I am doing. It opens up the past for her so we talk a lot.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> HER mind is closed??
> Go read what the Koch brothers have done to destroy this country and government. If you can't find anything to read, let me know. In the meantime look up the word "propaganda."


Perfect answer, even though the message was a dumb one.

I take that back. When the Kochs do it, it's wonderful, even though most RWNs are having their pockets picked by the richest people in the country. If one of the few left-wing zillionaires does it, not for his own profit but for racial justice, then call out the cavalry. Even though he hasn't done it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> So you corrected the information. Did anyone call what you posted "Rubbish?" So it was accepted. What else do you want?


Are you serious? Eve's info was correct; calling it "rubbish" would have made you guys look even stupider. What should be done, when you realize your own post was incorrect, is at least an "oops," if not a sincere apology.

You can remove "sincere" from that.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I'm impressed that your sisters are still out and about and cruising at their ages! I share your concerns about the safety of those massive ships, though. I would not get on one.


The older sister is still driving her car although her youngest daughter will not let her drive down to see the other sister. That is about one and a half hours drive each way along the highway that is also a truck route so she would be sharing the road with the 18 wheelers. Talk about 'wagons roll' they seem to travel in convoys, sometimes up to a dozen big rigs travelling together. They are supposed to leave gaps between the rigs but they don't. She still works one day a week as a volunteer in the Op Shop and one day a week as a volunteer at the hospital. She takes books, lollies etc around the wards for the patients. She lives in a retirement village and there is something on every day of the week - card evenings, days out, lawn bowls, I do not know where she gets her energy. She also has several trips to Bali each year, thankfully that is only a three and a half hour trip on the plane, plus 2 hours at the aerodrome before the plane takes off. Bali is considered to be an outer Perth suburb, it is cheaper to get on a plane and fly to Bali for a holiday than it is to travel to one of our Western Australian country towns and stay there for a holiday.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> this block African-Americans from greater economicI'm not sure racism is the only force at work, and that's the deliberate destruction of the middle class, which has long been a cherished part of the Republican/Conservative/1% agenda. Not only does this create a barrier to African-American economic success, it also targets a portion of the white population in this country. The goal is to get to the point were there are only the rich and the poor, and the face of the poor will be multi-colored. There may be fewer white faces in the lower class, but I'm not entirely sure of that. Greed is color blind.
> 
> If the wealth of this country is solely in the hands of the white patriarchy, and that class is made up entirely of the 1%, there are going to be a lot of white people who will fall into the poor class. They're already there, in a sense, if you look at the massive amount of credit card debt which almost entirely belongs to the middle class. Most of those in the middle class are already wage slaves, living from pay check to pay check. They only look like they're middle class, and when they eventually have to deal with that debt they will be proven to be poor.


Thanks for your thoughtful response, Maid. Every now and then I go back to the thread on Income Inequality and look at the graphic again, just to keep my mind fresh on the reality of what is happening to the middle class.

In the statement you quoted, tamarque says:

"I can find the links to other articles that deal with this from the false terrorist argument but I need to get out of here now."

I could not find her post, but this needs to be explored and if necessary, refuted. Can you point me to the post you quoted? "False terrorist" hints strongly of yet ANOTHER conspiracy theory. I'm sick of them and I intend to challenge such nonsense each and every time and also until she answers with some kind of valid source for her "facts."


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Lost my mom to brain tumor too. It was hard wasn't it.


I am sorry Yarnie -- It is so heartbreaking..


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Thanks for your thoughtful response, Maid. Every now and then I go back to the thread on Income Inequality and look at the graphic again, just to keep my mind fresh on the reality of what is happening to the middle class.
> 
> In the statement you quoted, tamarque says:
> 
> ...


Tamarque's post that I was responding to is on page 76.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

tamarque said:


> Later I can find the links to other articles that deal with this from the false terrorist argument but I need to get out of here now.
> 
> So suffice it to say that while Social Security is critical, nothing will change until people wrap their minds around some of the core ideology that is running this country.


Ok, so post your articles. Please cite sources.

You mention a "core ideology." I assume that means the one you believe in, correct?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Tamarque's post that I was responding to is on page 76.


Thanks, Maid.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> The older sister is still driving her car although her youngest daughter will not let her drive down to see the other sister. That is about one and a half hours drive each way along the highway that is also a truck route so she would be sharing the road with the 18 wheelers. Talk about 'wagons roll' they seem to travel in convoys, sometimes up to a dozen big rigs travelling together. They are supposed to leave gaps between the rigs but they don't. She still works one day a week as a volunteer in the Op Shop and one day a week as a volunteer at the hospital. She takes books, lollies etc around the wards for the patients. She lives in a retirement village and there is something on every day of the week - card evenings, days out, lawn bowls, I do not know where she gets her energy. She also has several trips to Bali each year, thankfully that is only a three and a half hour trip on the plane, plus 2 hours at the aerodrome before the plane takes off. Bali is considered to be an outer Perth suburb, it is cheaper to get on a plane and fly to Bali for a holiday than it is to travel to one of our Western Australian country towns and stay there for a holiday.


I think I need to adopt her as a role model.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> It is so very hard if you have a close family member with alzheimer's. All anyone can do is to be there, hold their hand and tell them you love them. When they talk just go along with the flow of their conversation. If they talk about their childhood, talk to them as if those days are still here, just talk about what they talk about. When my sister was in the hospice dying from a brain tumour she had virtually lost the power of speech and what she did say was only gibberish. She would just say "Wibbly, wobbly, wibbly, wobbly woo, and the three hail marys." I do not know why she said "and the three hail marys" as it was the only intelligent words she would say. There was a lady who sat at her dining table and she was suffering from alzheimer's. Strangely, she remembered and recognised me every time I visited but she did not remember or recognise her family. I would chat to her and we would wander around Perth as it was in the 1940s. I could remember Perth from that period and to her it was Perth of today. The staff said I was the only person she wanted to talk to, but I think it was just because I could enter into her world and share memories with her. But, treasure your memories of your sister from better days.


The Wibbly Wobbly Woo reminds me of a song. She must have prayed the Rosary a lot to have the Hail Mary prayer so important to her.

But you are so right about accepting them where they are and not where you are. At this time in their life it is all about them; what they need, and what we can do to keep them happy and feel safe. What a gift you gave to her and what a gift she gave to you for the wonderful memories.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Just think of moving your activities from the floor to kitchen or dining room table. They sound like great fun.

My GM started us on her button jar. We used to plant flowers and vegetables on her chenille bedspread. Pipe cleaners are fun for so many things. And don't forget paper and crayons. With the aid of stickers, even the youngest artist can make something for your refrigerator and something to send to Mom.

Best of luck. Maybe a good night book or sing a lullaby while you rock him. My oldest GS is 16 and I swear 'Home on the range' still knocks him out.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, dame!
> The closest we come to rest is sitting on the floor playing with buttons and beads. He loves them. I try to think of things like that, that he doesn't do at home. We go in the dark rooms and shine flashlights or twist pipe cleaners into shapes. I've got lots of stamps and stickers, stuff like that. Right now, my biggest problem is that my legs hurt, from getting up and down from the floor, a million times a day. I'm going to have to think of more table activities or maybe build up the muscles in my legs. But it is great exhausting fun!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks.



Cindy S said:


> http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-312691-1.html


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Visitors must take the good moments as and if they come. Not everyone is as talented at seeing into another's mind as you are. People can ignore this skill at their own peril.



Designer1234 said:


> I am the only one my sister ever really talks to. We are on the west coast and she is in Ottawa but sometimes we have talked for close to an hour on the phone. I am the only one who remembers what she remembers - (which is also leaving her). I know she isn't sure who I am until I say, 'do you remember when and a childhood story. Her voice lights up and she remembers much more about that time (including the bad times and including the fact that we were played off against each other.) Finally we put to rest a lot of the bad stuff which came between us all our lives. She and I have cleared the air, and I am so thankful that that happened.
> 
> Once in awhile she knows me NOW but less and less. Last year she called me about 20 times wishing me a happy birthday. Or Merry Christmas. Had no recollection of the previous calls and messages. It is so difficult for my niece and nephew. She remembers nothing of what happened l5 minutes ago.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Got it. Thanks.



Huckleberry said:


> damemary
> Ann DeGray opened it.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> So you corrected the information. Did anyone call what you posted "Rubbish?" So it was accepted. What else do you want?


Freedom from propaganda?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> How about you ladies from D&P stop posting such rubbish in the first place?
> 
> You can't possibly think we will agree with anything from your right-wing propaganda sites, so what's the point?
> 
> ...


1. To get their can kicked. 
2. To whine how mean we are.

Locked and loaded.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We share views on cruises.

I'm glad your sisters are chipper and they're having fun. Maybe they'll send you a postcard.

Regarding death, I think the patient's wishes should be honored, and the family should deal with it. Sorry about your Mom and Dad. Mine both went quickly. I still miss them every day.



EveMCooke said:


> Thankfully it was only six months from when she was diagnosed to when she died, but she deteriorated very rapidly. The said the tumour was inoperable. But her children still made her undergo chemo treatment. She would not take the drugs, she would pretend to swallow them and when the nurse had gone she would spit the tablets out. The cleaners did not seem to notice the tablets on the floor of the ward. When they took her down for radiotherapy she would not lie still so they could not give it to her. She was lucid enough to lodge her complaints even though she could not speak rationally. But her children insisted she undergo the treatment. In the end the doctor stepped in and told her children that she would not be forced to undergo any further treatments as they would not prolong her life.
> 
> My father also died from a brain tumour as did one of his sisters.
> 
> My other two sisters are not getting on a bit, one is 87 years and the other 86 years. They are talking about going on another cruise, a 19 day cruise. I do not like the idea of floating around the ocean on a converted sheep carrier with a mob of strangers, with the added option of drowning. Those cruise ships are just too big, they remind me of the sheep carriers they use for the live sheep trade to the middle east. They do not look safe, how many of them have run into trouble and sunk?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Good points.



MaidInBedlam said:


> I'm not sure racism is the only force at work, and that's the deliberate destruction of the middle class, which has long been a cherished part of the Republican/Conservative/1% agenda. Not only does this create a barrier to African-American economic success, it also targets a portion of the white population in this country. The goal is to get to the point were there are only the rich and the poor, and the face of the poor will be multi-colored. There may be fewer white faces in the lower class, but I'm not entirely sure of that. Greed is color blind.
> 
> If the wealth of this country is solely in the hands of the white patriarchy, and that class is made up entirely of the 1%, there are going to be a lot of white people who will fall into the poor class. They're already there, in a sense, if you look at the massive amount of credit card debt which almost entirely belongs to the middle class. Most of those in the middle class are already wage slaves, living from pay check to pay check. They only look like they're middle class, and when they eventually have to deal with that debt, they will be proven to be poor.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

OK. Maybe Cookie will teach both of us how to express thoughts politely. I think you're pretty good at it unless aggravated in extreme. I struggle.



Designer1234 said:


> I have tried that - it doesn't seem to work with some of them. I am trying to use restraint with them, but it just shows them I won't fight so they increase the nastiness. I am not going to do that all the time. Cookie you are doing a good job. You seem to be able to accomplish it . I don't do as good a job.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> I'm impressed that your sisters are still out and about and cruising at their ages! I share your concerns about the safety of those massive ships, though. I would not get on one.


That's three of us so far that don't desire to cruise. Any others? I think the European River cruises are at least close to land and they don't seem to hit rough waters.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Stuff a sock in it.



joeysomma said:


> "Rubbish" is what is posted on this site when someone does not agree with information that is stated, without even reading it. Apologies are not forth coming from this site when a statement is proven wrong.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> "Kindness and acceptance". Then why are you here? Most COWS would know better. There is nothing kind or accepting about you.
> MOOOve on!


Hi Batty,

Here is just another example of proof of what LTL says is true. Mockery and attack - for no reason other than you can.

Farmwoman, LTL, I and even you can post anywhere we please on this forum, so please stop ordering people to move on.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> This website is one of Soros's funded organizations. Did you bother to read this. It describes the organizations he funds and they organized the protests.


What is "this website"? Can't read it without a name.

I have no doubt that he supports those organizations. My doubt is about "they organized the protests." Does "this website" claim to have organized the protests?

It's interesting that the person the right hates almost as much as - maybe even more than - President Obama is a Jewish holocaust survivor. That's as much a coincidence as the President's being a black man.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> lovethelake
> are you sitting in for KPG? Filing every comment anyone of us makes? The Lady came in to scold us and we reacted. All she had to do is zip it. Interesting that you left out my reply to her.


All you and your group had to do was keep it zipped. I guess ignoring someone is no fun when you can attack instead. Yes, I just attacked instead of ignoring you. The difference is that at least I admit and take responsibility for what I do.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> That's three of us so far that don't desire to cruise. Any others? I think the European River cruises are at least close to land and they don't seem to hit rough waters.


I have friends who love cruises and won't take any other type of vacation. I always think "there's no accounting for taste," and say No thank you.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Hi Batty,
> 
> Here is just another example of proof of what LTL says is true. Mockery and attack - for no reason other than you can.
> 
> Farmwoman, LTL, I and even you can post anywhere we please on this forum, so please stop ordering people to move on.


Why should she stop? You don't listen to her anyway. She's as free to say Move on as you are to insult her.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Hi Batty,
> 
> Here is just another example of proof of what LTL says is true. Mockery and attack - for no reason other than you can.
> 
> Farmwoman, LTL, I and even you can post anywhere we please on this forum, so please stop ordering people to move on.


Sloweygirl, if you don't like the atmosphere, there are plenty of other threads to drop your snark in.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Hi Batty,
> 
> Here is just another example of proof of what LTL says is true. Mockery and attack - for no reason other than you can.
> 
> Farmwoman, LTL, I and even you can post anywhere we please on this forum, so please stop ordering people to move on.


Yes we can. I did not order her to do anything. I simply suggested that she MOOOve on.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I think I need to adopt her as a role model.


Just promise me that you will not follow her example and become a picky eater. She is so fussy with what she eats these days I honestly wonder how she maintains a healthy diet. She does not take any extra vitamins or supplements and does not need any of the medications that a lot of elderly people need.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Why should she stop? You don't listen to her anyway. She's as free to say Move on as you are to insult her.


She doesn't see that about herself, Purl. She condemns others for doing exactly what she does.
When there is a good discussion going, you can count on those 2 to come in and interrupt with snarky comments. It is as regular as clockwork.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> All you and your group had to do was keep it zipped. I guess ignoring someone is no fun when you can attack instead. Yes, I just attacked instead of ignoring you. The difference is that at least I admit and take responsibility for what I do.


Why should we "keep it zipped?" Should we give you a trophy because you take responsibility for being rude and sarcastic?


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> The Wibbly Wobbly Woo reminds me of a song. She must have prayed the Rosary a lot to have the Hail Mary prayer so important to her.
> 
> But you are so right about accepting them where they are and not where you are. At this time in their life it is all about them; what they need, and what we can do to keep them happy and feel safe. What a gift you gave to her and what a gift she gave to you for the wonderful memories.


We attended convent schools and were reared as Catholics. We had the usual prayers in school but we did not pray as a family, unlike some families that said the rosary every night, our family did not do this. We said our private prayers before we went to bed but that was that. She was not a particularly religious person, in fact she did not attend mass on a regular basis after she left school and did not go to mass at all after she married in 1956. She died in 2009. I would say that she had not said the rosary since she left school in 1949. I think it was just a memory there from her childhood. When we went to confession as children the priest would tell us to go and say three hail marys as our penance.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> We share views on cruises.
> 
> I'm glad your sisters are chipper and they're having fun. Maybe they'll send you a postcard.
> 
> Regarding death, I think the patient's wishes should be honored, and the family should deal with it. Sorry about your Mom and Dad. Mine both went quickly. I still miss them every day.


Mum took sick and died within 24 hours, it was so hard to take. She had a bowel blockage and took several doses of laxatives to cure it. She vomited the contents of her stomach under force as a result. This caused a massive cardiac arrest. The doctors said what happened would have killed a 20 year old. She was just short of her 88th birthday. She had never suffered heart problems in her life.

Dad had been very ill in hospital for a long time. He had been in and out of hospital ever since he was discharged from the army in December 1944, as medically unfit. He died in 1966, he was only 65 years old. They operated on the brain tumour about six weeks before he died, but it was too late. His problems were masked by his excessive alcohol consumption. What were symptoms of a brain tumour were treated as symptoms of the DTs caused by his alcoholism. He was even locked in a padded cell in the Repatriation Hospital. He was also a drug addict. Prescription drugs not the illegal drugs that are rampant in society. Returned servicemen who were discharged as 'medically unfit' were often given strong drugs like they were lollies. He had bottles of strong drugs hidden everywhere.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> That's three of us so far that don't desire to cruise. Any others? I think the European River cruises are at least close to land and they don't seem to hit rough waters.


I would love to take one of those gypsy horse drawn caravan tours of the British Isles. Nice and slow and gentle.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> Hi Batty,
> 
> Here is just another example of proof of what LTL says is true. Mockery and attack - for no reason other than you can.
> 
> Farmwoman, LTL, I and even you can post anywhere we please on this forum, so please stop ordering people to move on.


Which would also mean that we are free to post on D & P?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Just promise me that you will not follow her example and become a picky eater. She is so fussy with what she eats these days I honestly wonder how she maintains a healthy diet. She does not take any extra vitamins or supplements and does not need any of the medications that a lot of elderly people need.


I'll eat most anything. Except liver, okra and cucumbers. Not crazy about watermelon, but don't fuss about it.

Otherwise, if it doesn't eat me first...


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I would love to take one of those gypsy horse drawn caravan tours of the British Isles. Nice and slow and gentle.


How fun would that be?! I want to visit Ireland, but don't want to sit on a bus and see the tourist traps. I want to see everything east to west and south to north and everything in between.
I tried for Scotland and England, but DH says it's one isle at a time.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> you are the master of snarky remarks. I have so little respect for you and your opinions, and it is so obvious that if you don't have something to complain about you make something up. Over and over. You started attacking me when I came back to these threads between my workshop duties which were just about full time. It has never changed. You have a bee in your bonnet and it isn't very attractive Solo. In a million years I will never catch up (as if I wanted to) to your vicious, deep seated jealousy and hatred of every post I make. You are so shallow and so nasty that it boggles the mind. Have your fun. Just sayin.
> 
> We all know how absolutely offensive you are when you answer any of my posts - as I rarely address you as I am now.
> 
> You would think you might be jealous? hmmm. Or maybe it is lack of empathy with anyone who has accomplished some things that you will never accomplish == Just saying


HAHAHAHA jealous of you - hardly, but thanks for the chuckle. What's to be jealous about a whiny, tattletale attention seeker?People tend to outgrow that personality trait when they leave their teens. There is nothing about you that I would want to be, so there is no jealousy involved.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> How fun would that be?! I want to visit Ireland, but don't want to sit on a bus and see the tourist traps. I want to see everything east to west and south to north and everything in between.
> I tried for Scotland and England, but DH says it's one isle at a time.


No tourist traps! Good for you. We spent 2 months last summer on a road trip to Alaska and avoided anything that smacked of a tourist trap. What we DID see and do was wonderful, fantastic, memorable...the only way to go.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> HAHAHAHA jealous of you - hardly, but thanks for the chuckle. What's to be jealous about a whiny, tattletale attention seeker?People tend to outgrow that personality trait when they leave their teens. There is nothing about you that I would want to be, so there is no jealousy involved.


That's kindness and acceptance? Shame on you sloweygirl. It is plain to see that you are in this thread to pick fights. You could have "kept it zipped."
What explanation do you have for your retort? Shouldn't you have outgrown that behavior in your teens?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> No tourist traps! Good for you. We spent 2 months last summer on a road trip to Alaska and avoided anything that smacked of a tourist trap. What we DID see and do was wonderful, fantastic, memorable...the only way to go.


My idea is B&B's along the way. Take as much time in each place as we want.
I have done the family geneology and want to visit the villages where my ancestors lived. But this is what I really want to see.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> How fun would that be?! I want to visit Ireland, but don't want to sit on a bus and see the tourist traps. I want to see everything east to west and south to north and everything in between.
> I tried for Scotland and England, but DH says it's one isle at a time.


One good thing about the British Isles is they are so tiny. Nowhere is far from anywhere. Not like here in Perth where we are so far from everywhere. We are nearly 4,000 km from Sydney and that involves mile after mile after mile of nothing but road, especially across the Nullarbor. I think I would prefer to travel by private car than tourist coach. We had to catch the bus from Albany to Perth on a couple of occasions when the car was in for repairs, only just over 400 km, but the bus took forever. I love train travel but they stopped the trains in 1978.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> HAHAHAHA jealous of you - hardly, but thanks for the chuckle. What's to be jealous about a whiny, tattletale attention seeker?People tend to outgrow that personality trait when they leave their teens. There is nothing about you that I would want to be, so there is no jealousy involved.


Hindus believe that we associate with the same group of people throughout several incarnations and this explains why we instantly like or dislike someone. All I can say is that Solo and Designer must have been enemies in a previous existence and Solo just cannot bring herself to forgive these past wrongs from her previous incarnation.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> My idea is B&B's along the way. Take as much time in each place as we want.
> I have done the family geneology and want to visit the villages where my ancestors lived. But this is what I really want to see.


We always travelled in a VW Kombi and I still love that form of travel. Stop anywhere and cook your own meals. We met so many other interesting travellers and I have so many memories. Little things, such as the way the light strikes the salmon gums at sunrise or sunset, they look like someone has used Mr Sheen on their trunks. My memories are not about great tourist attractions but small, almost insignificant things. I love the trees in your photo. :thumbup:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> We always travelled in a VW Kombi and I still love that form of travel. Stop anywhere and cook your own meals. We met so many other interesting travellers and I have so many memories. Little things, such as the way the light strikes the salmon gums at sunrise or sunset, they look like someone has used Mr Sheen on their trunks. My memories are not about great tourist attractions but small, almost insignificant things. I love the trees in your photo. :thumbup:


They look like something out of a story book.
I have read that Northern Ireland is selling their forests. I hope they don't chop this one down.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Yes we can. I did not order her to do anything. I simply suggested that she MOOOve on.


Ok, whatever floats your boat.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Just promise me that you will not follow her example and become a picky eater. She is so fussy with what she eats these days I honestly wonder how she maintains a healthy diet. She does not take any extra vitamins or supplements and does not need any of the medications that a lot of elderly people need.


Good for her. She seems to be doing quite well and her mind is sharp, so maybe she shouldn't change anything. Whatever she is doing is working for her.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> She doesn't see that about herself, Purl. She condemns others for doing exactly what she does.
> When there is a good discussion going, you can count on those 2 to come in and interrupt with snarky comments. It is as regular as clockwork.


I do see that about me. I also am one of the few on here that actually admits and takes responsibility for what I say and do.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Why should we "keep it zipped?" Should we give you a trophy because you take responsibility for being rude and sarcastic?


Then don't bitch about others not keeping quiet. It's the old double standard, even if you don't acknowledge it. No trophy needed, thank you.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Which would also mean that we are free to post on D & P?


Just as free as we are to post on LOLL.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> I do see that about me. I also am one of the few on here that actually admits and takes responsibility for what I say and do.


That's the second time you have said that. You admit that you only come into this thread to pick fights. That's something to beat your chest about. 
Do you behave like this in D&P?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

damemary said:


> That's three of us so far that don't desire to cruise. Any others? I think the European River cruises are at least close to land and they don't seem to hit rough waters.


I have no desire to go on a cruise. So many days trapped on a ship with a million people you don't know or care to know? A European river cruise sounds better, but I can't get DH interested.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Just as free as we are to post on LOLL.


Go for it! Now all threads are free to post in :mrgreen:


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> That's the second time you have said that. Once again, do you want a prize?
> Do you behave like this in D&P?


Is the truth in that bothering you?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Is the truth in that bothering you?


The truth that you are rude and sarcastic and only come here to pick fights?
No, not at all.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Just think of moving your activities from the floor to kitchen or dining room table. They sound like great fun.
> 
> My GM started us on her button jar. We used to plant flowers and vegetables on her chenille bedspread. Pipe cleaners are fun for so many things. And don't forget paper and crayons. With the aid of stickers, even the youngest artist can make something for your refrigerator and something to send to Mom.
> 
> Best of luck. Maybe a good night book or sing a lullaby while you rock him. My oldest GS is 16 and I swear 'Home on the range' still knocks him out.


Max isn't real fond of coloring but he likes to "write" with a pen. I've several coloring books but he's not interested. He like other crafty projects though. His favorite (which we've done over and over) is when I cut a peice of blue construction paper in the shape of a fish bowl and spread glue across the bottom. He sprinkles fine craft sand onto the glue, then we glue tiny shells to the bottom and stick fish stickers all over the page. He also like glitter pens and painting of any kind. He won't sit still for reading except at bedtime but loves singing and anything musical (like his daddy). He loves to play his daddy's keyboard but doesn't want anyone to show him how to play. I taught him "chopsticks", which amazed his parents because he never let's anyone sit and play with him, just me.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Hi Batty,
> 
> Here is just another example of proof of what LTL says is true. Mockery and attack - for no reason other than you can.
> 
> Farmwoman, LTL, I and even you can post anywhere we please on this forum, so please stop ordering people to move on.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> HAHAHAHA jealous of you - hardly, but thanks for the chuckle. What's to be jealous about a whiny, tattletale attention seeker?People tend to outgrow that personality trait when they leave their teens. There is nothing about you that I would want to be, so there is no jealousy involved.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Which would also mean that we are free to post on D & P?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> That's three of us so far that don't desire to cruise. Any others? I think the European River cruises are at least close to land and they don't seem to hit rough waters.


I agree! River Cruses are fun, nice and short. But you couldn't pay me to take an ocean cruise. What with ships breaking down and epidemics of Norovirus? No thanks! Neither will I fly. I refuse to be molested ever again. Once was enough! If I can't drive, I'm not going!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Hindus believe that we associate with the same group of people throughout several incarnations and this explains why we instantly like or dislike someone. All I can say is that Solo and Designer must have been enemies in a previous existence and Solo just cannot bring herself to forgive these past wrongs from her previous incarnation.


I think that might be possible, but there is no way I could forget Solo even if it was so. -- she is one of a kind nasty. Its been going on ever since I was working on the workshops

. I used to leave for awhile as I hated the fighting, then would come back when I had a few weeks with nothing planned. She forgets that I have been on these threads since the beginning - I never bothered to check how long she has been spouting her nastiness. I have been off and on since the Progressive site was still open and run as a section.

It is just so silly -- yep every word I said in my last post was the truth from my point of view.

I also wonder whether her post that said we are all on a public public forum and can post wherever we want, {including D and P as their members were so devastated when you all visited them}?. From LTL's post it sounded as if they were damaged forever and will never get over it. Weird indeed. Contradiction???? yes. I am sick of both of them. The others don't bother me - but these two are really nasty. They enjoy insulting me so I am going to reply.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> I do see that about me. I also am one of the few on here that actually admits and takes responsibility for what I say and do.


So you are aware of how nasty and unkind you are? and proud of it??? That is the difference -- you thrive on it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> From Tamarque regarding the New World Order: "The NWO is the name that the Bushes used. It is a program to take over the world under US hegemonic control. It is not a theory despite the fact that you are uncomfortable with it."
> 
> What you say is a fabrication. The context in which he used this term includes no hint of US control of the world.
> 
> ...


Try Project for a New American Century. It's the Neocons' plan for the future (written in the early part of the 21st century), and it still seems attractive to them.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> She doesn't see that about herself, Purl. She condemns others for doing exactly what she does.
> When there is a good discussion going, you can count on those 2 to come in and interrupt with snarky comments. It is as regular as clockwork.


I have noticed that, going all the way back to an unforgiveable interruption. Those two really don't know how to zip it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Why should we "keep it zipped?" Should we give you a trophy because you take responsibility for being rude and sarcastic?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> My idea is B&B's along the way. Take as much time in each place as we want.
> I have done the family geneology and want to visit the villages where my ancestors lived. But this is what I really want to see.


Looks magical.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Looks magical.


I am currently reading a novel trilogy by Juliene Osborn McKnight.
It is about paganism in Ireland leading up to the change over to Christianity.
She has described this road to a tee.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree! River Cruses are fun, nice and short. But you couldn't pay me to take an ocean cruise. What with ships breaking down and epidemics of Norovirus? No thanks! Neither will I fly. I refuse to be molested ever again. Once was enough! If I can't drive, I'm not going!


Unfortunately, in Australia we have to fly, otherwise we would just be stuck here in Oz. We did have the ocean liners to UK and Europe but they took weeks, now it is only about 25 hours flying time to US, with one stop in Sydney or another eastern states city. Driving between the big cities takes time, Perth is so far from anywhere. Perth to Albany is just over 400 km, so a good 4 hour trip at the shortest, but longer because you really should not drive for more than 2 hours without a break. Not much to see on the road to Albany, there are a few towns, but they are only very small places. Too many big rigs on the roads these days. Most country trains have been replaced by busses and they can be such a pain.

Cost is another factor. I know petrol prices have fallen but in our country towns we can pay up to 20 cents a litre more than the city prices, so driving is not cheap. Petrol is around $1.06 a litre but it can be $1.54 in Kalgoorlie, unfortunately the prices for places like Mundrabilla, in the middle of the Nullarbor have not been posted but they would be even higher. So it is not a cheap way to travel. I can get a one way ticket to Sydney for under $200 and the trip takes about four and a half hours as opposed to a good four days or even longer. It is also far to hot to think about travelling across the Nullarbor at the moment. Yes, I have driven across the Nullarbor during the summer months but have found shade under the old water tanks or whatever during the middle of the day. I much prefer to fly. The only thing I dislike about flying is the wait at the airport, 2 hours for international flights and 1 hour for domestic flights. Thankfully the airport is less than 30 minutes from where I live if we use the back road.

I love that buzz you get when the engines roar into life and you go thundering down the runway and lift off. You also get a magnificent view of Perth, the view depends on which flight path you are given. When we flew to Bali once we were about 45 minutes late in take off. The captain rejected the plane for some reason so they had to bring another plane out. We were given a different flight path and the one we were given gave us a panoramic view of all Perth beaches. Usually the flight path takes you over my house and straight over the Darling Escarpment, but this one was so different. No, I love flying and really have lost the enthusiasm for long car trips.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> What is "this website"? Can't read it without a name.
> 
> I have no doubt that he supports those organizations. My doubt is about "they organized the protests." Does "this website" claim to have organized the protests?
> 
> It's interesting that the person the right hates almost as much as - maybe even more than - President Obama is a Jewish holocaust survivor. That's as much a coincidence as the President's being a black man.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think I see a trend.



Poor Purl said:


> I have friends who love cruises and won't take any other type of vacation. I always think "there's no accounting for taste," and say No thank you.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Yeah, if we can just hold our noses as we write.



EveMCooke said:


> Which would also mean that we are free to post on D & P?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Solo about Designer1234....again.



soloweygirl said:


> HAHAHAHA jealous of you - hardly, but thanks for the chuckle. What's to be jealous about a whiny, tattletale attention seeker?People tend to outgrow that personality trait when they leave their teens. There is nothing about you that I would want to be, so there is no jealousy involved.


Rude, shameful and thoroughly untrue statements about a lovely lady. That's my honest opinion and I'm sticking to it.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My ideal is to see any area beyond the tourist traps.



DGreen said:


> No tourist traps! Good for you. We spent 2 months last summer on a road trip to Alaska and avoided anything that smacked of a tourist trap. What we DID see and do was wonderful, fantastic, memorable...the only way to go.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That's called an allee (al-lay'). Someone must have planted it directly into their garden many years ago.



BrattyPatty said:


> They look like something out of a story book.
> I have read that Northern Ireland is selling their forests. I hope they don't chop this one down.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Same here as far as DH. He traveled a great deal on business. I did a bit of it, but I've always loved travel.

No ocean cruises? So far it's Eve, Patty, DGreen, me, and ??? I'm a bad record-keeper.



cookiequeen said:


> I have no desire to go on a cruise. So many days trapped on a ship with a million people you don't know or care to know? A European river cruise sounds better, but I can't get DH interested.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And it all makes money for the owners.



BrattyPatty said:


> Go for it! Now all threads are free to post in :mrgreen:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You're no source of truth to me. No danger there.



soloweygirl said:


> Is the truth in that bothering you?


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I think that might be possible, but there is no way I could forget Solo even if it was so. -- she is one of a kind nasty. Its been going on ever since I was working on the workshops
> 
> . I used to leave for awhile as I hated the fighting, then would come back when I had a few weeks with nothing planned. She forgets that I have been on these threads since the beginning - I never bothered to check how long she has been spouting her nastiness. I have been off and on since the Progressive site was still open and run as a section.
> 
> ...


Must you put your words in red, which symbolizes yelling angrily? Yikes, naptime on the West Coast. I did not say all of them were damaged forever, I said many that had no idea why things were posted that offended them so much. The difference with what happened on D&P and here is that many were so offended and they had no idea why. And those that posted those offensive images knew that, planned it and that is just plain nasty to do to people that had not offended you.

One of the things I do enjoy is pointing out the hypocrisy and lies. That is not nasty, there is no vicious name calling, just the facts. Facts are not feelings; facts that sometimes many don't realize the difference and react in an emotional manner that can be a nasty knee jerk reaction to their own feelings.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You're a very special person to Max. I can just see your blue fish bowls with Goldfish crackers.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Max isn't real fond of coloring but he likes to "write" with a pen. I've several coloring books but he's not interested. He like other crafty projects though. His favorite (which we've done over and over) is when I cut a peice of blue construction paper in the shape of a fish bowl and spread glue across the bottom. He sprinkles fine craft sand onto the glue, then we glue tiny shells to the bottom and stick fish stickers all over the page. He also like glitter pens and painting of any kind. He won't sit still for reading except at bedtime but loves singing and anything musical (like his daddy). He loves to play his daddy's keyboard but doesn't want anyone to show him how to play. I taught him "chopsticks", which amazed his parents because he never let's anyone sit and play with him, just me.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

damemary said:


> And it all makes money for the owners.


If you are referring to advertising revenue, it would be interesting to see which ads generate the most money for the companies and on which threads. Wonder if they get to choose where their ads will show up.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I've always loved to fly, but the airlines are taking all the fun out of it. Long waits to board. No room to sit, much less stretch your legs. No customer service. Ugh.



EveMCooke said:


> Unfortunately, in Australia we have to fly, otherwise we would just be stuck here in Oz. We did have the ocean liners to UK and Europe but they took weeks, now it is only about 25 hours flying time to US, with one stop in Sydney or another eastern states city. Driving between the big cities takes time, Perth is so far from anywhere. Perth to Albany is just over 400 km, so a good 4 hour trip at the shortest, but longer because you really should not drive for more than 2 hours without a break. Not much to see on the road to Albany, there are a few towns, but they are only very small places. Too many big rigs on the roads these days. Most country trains have been replaced by busses and they can be such a pain.
> 
> Cost is another factor. I know petrol prices have fallen but in our country towns we can pay up to 20 cents a litre more than the city prices, so driving is not cheap. Petrol is around $1.06 a litre but it can be $1.54 in Kalgoorlie, unfortunately the prices for places like Mundrabilla, in the middle of the Nullarbor have not been posted but they would be even higher. So it is not a cheap way to travel. I can get a one way ticket to Sydney for under $200 and the trip takes about four and a half hours as opposed to a good four days or even longer. It is also far to hot to think about travelling across the Nullarbor at the moment. Yes, I have driven across the Nullarbor during the summer months but have found shade under the old water tanks or whatever during the middle of the day. I much prefer to fly. The only thing I dislike about flying is the wait at the airport, 2 hours for international flights and 1 hour for domestic flights. Thankfully the airport is less than 30 minutes from where I live if we use the back road.
> 
> I love that buzz you get when the engines roar into life and you go thundering down the runway and lift off. You also get a magnificent view of Perth, the view depends on which flight path you are given. When we flew to Bali once we were about 45 minutes late in take off. The captain rejected the plane for some reason so they had to bring another plane out. We were given a different flight path and the one we were given gave us a panoramic view of all Perth beaches. Usually the flight path takes you over my house and straight over the Darling Escarpment, but this one was so different. No, I love flying and really have lost the enthusiasm for long car trips.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Yawn.



joeysomma said:


> http://racialequity.org/docs/Sustaining%20Racial%20Justice%20Action%20inPhilanthropyFergusonBeyond.pdf


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Must you put your words in red, which symbolizes yelling angrily? Yikes, naptime on the West Coast. I did not say all of them were damaged forever, I said many that had no idea why things were posted that offended them so much. The difference with what happened on D&P and here is that many were so offended and they had no idea why. And those that posted those offensive images knew that, planned it and that is just plain nasty to do to people that had not offended you.
> 
> One of the things I do enjoy is pointing out the hypocrisy and lies. That is not nasty, there is no vicious name calling, just the facts. Facts are not feelings; facts that sometimes many don't realize the difference and react in an emotional manner that can be a nasty knee jerk reaction to their own feelings.


*CAPS Sumbolize angry yelling*. Colors draw attention to the part that is colored. Why don't you look in the mirror LTL. None of your facts are true - and you love to attack. You came on here and tried to hold a pity party. "Those poor women seemed devastated, They would never forget it " - you come wherever we are and say outrageous things, you scold us, you insult us -- you say how superior you are, and on and on. You stop and it might surprise you how little you are missed. Solo does the same thing. Her twisted posts about me are practically scary as they don't make any sense. She is obsessed. (We all know that). She won't hear from me once she leaves me alone.

But it has to be alone, not jumping in every other time I post. I will continue posting what I want, when I want. If she wan'ts it stopped, then both of you stop attacking. That is the point. neither of you want it stopped because you both get your jollies by trying to hurt, or upset us.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> Must you put your words in red, which symbolizes yelling angrily? Yikes, naptime on the West Coast. I did not say all of them were damaged forever, I said many that had no idea why things were posted that offended them so much. The difference with what happened on D&P and here is that many were so offended and they had no idea why. And those that posted those offensive images knew that, planned it and that is just plain nasty to do to people that had not offended you.
> 
> One of the things I do enjoy is pointing out the hypocrisy and lies. That is not nasty, there is no vicious name calling, just the facts. Facts are not feelings; facts that sometimes many don't realize the difference and react in an emotional manner that can be a nasty knee jerk reaction to their own feelings.


Someone - it might not have been you - did say some of the ladies were so deeply hurt they might never get over it. Fragile, I guess. Perhaps sheltered their entire lives?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Someone - it might not have been you - did say some of the ladies were so deeply hurt they might never get over it. Fragile, I guess. Perhaps sheltered their entire lives?


It was LTL - I will try to find the post if necessary


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> It was LTL - I will try to find the post if necessary


I don't think that's necessary. We all know what was said.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

In answer to LTL's post today which denied these types of posts.

They are incapable of telling the truth, so how can you expect them to be honorable? They take pride in their relentless harming of people's sensibilities and do not care who they hurt or how deeply their actions and words damage their hearts. But as they continue to post here with their relentless attempt at harming innocent women, they show everyone on KP what type of low lifes they really are. They are who they are, sad but true.

What I was replying to is that after all those horrible posts from people she calls friends (and she chimed in too) coming over to D&P to wish those on that thread a Merry Christmas was disrespectful to the ladies that were so deeply wounded by the AOLW's intentional vicious attack on that thread without any remorse.

So if she (or any of you) felt remorse for that it has never been stated. It was a planned and relentless assault on a group of women that had no idea why, and that deeply hurt them to their religious and core moral beliefs. So any wishing of Christmas cheer was just adding insult to a deep injury and cruel.

I never said she posted pictures that were offensive, I said she acted like a lemming and encouraged and approved of the postings that she knew would hurt others. Never once did she (or any other AOLW) tell 'their group' to stop posting things that were knowing hurting people who were caught in the vicious crossfire to get at a few. Many innocent ladies were hurt by postings that they had no idea why someone would do that to their thread. So for Designer to come to D & P to wish people a Merry Christmas without apologizing or accepting responsibility for the pain she and others caused was hollow and just plain rude. She and other AOLW may believe that saying Merry Christmas to the women (and gentleman) on D&P will make things better is just insane thinking. One can forgive, but forgiveness does not mean that a person(s) forgets the pain and should not. To forget is to open one's self to be a target again, which is just stupid. If one really understands the story of Jesus and turning the other cheek, one would realize that it is a form of passive resistance because when one turns the other cheek that way it is almost impossible for a right-handed person to strike that cheek. So one is dared to strike back, but they know that it won't be affective. Interesting.

======Designer1234 wrote:
I posted Christmas wishes on D and P - LTL twisted it - please don't go back there and reply. I know what I meant and some of them do to. It is Christmas so let it go please. This is just in case one of you see it -
=========
LTL posted
Good grief. Nothing like playing the victim and calling attention to yourself. _You chose to involve yourself with the nasty invasion on D&P, and you think just popping over to say Merry Christmas people will forget the hurt you and the others caused them. You have no idea what you and the other AOLW did to some of those women. Many were so hurt by all the comments and pictures, and they did not even know why their beliefs were being assaulted, just so you could get your kicks in to a few. Sorry, they may forgive you but they will never forget._

_ But I need to pray about how to forgive those that purposefully and cruelly attacked my friends to their very core. I can't image having such an evil soul that allows someone to justify such satanic behavior. I pray that I will forgive, but I will never forget what they did, who they are, how they created a mob mentality that made them lose their humanity. I also pray that the lemmings that followed the most evil of the evil will ask for forgiveness from those who they hurt and violated. They do not seem to understand how much they hurt the ladies on this thread and how long (if ever) they will heal from the pain_.

===Posted by LTL recently
This is just one of 5 posts she posted which say and imply the same thing. I have them here if she calls me a liar again.
They were posted on two Political threads. I copied her messages which is allowed. I checked with admin said it was allowed as it is public information,as it is there for all to read. My posts have been used against me in the past. I won't copy any more unless there is another attack or lies posted about this.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I don't think that's necessary. We all know what was said.


 TOO LATE a part of her group of posts is already posted. I am getting tired of being called a liar, and evil.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> TOO LATE a part of her group of posts is already posted. I am getting tired of being called a liar, and evil.


After you refreshed my memory - - you are right. LTL's posts were wildly exaggerated and offensive.

We really do love you here, Designer. Just so you don't forget.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> After you refreshed my memory - - you are right. LTL's posts were wildly exaggerated and offensive.
> 
> We really do love you here, Designer. Just so you don't forget.


I am feeling enough better that I have decided to call them on their lies. I am sick of the whole business. They think I am too scared, or too simple to fight back -- I tried that - it doesn't work. Thanks Green for your support as well as the support of all my friends. I know you all know the truth.

I am feeling better each day. Went out for a light dinner tonight, and came back and decided to post this. It has been a good day- now I am tired and I am going to leave and knit for a couple of hours. Slept through the night last night and had a nap this afternoon. This morning I walked l/4 mile on the track with Pat. Three days ago I wouldn't have thought it was possible. Yeay! Have a good sleep everyone it is about 9 pm in the east, only 7.pm here on Vancouver Island. A lovely sunny day - the trees are showing spring growth already. We drove out to Maple Bay Marina and had coffee and a muffin sitting and looking at all the yachts etc. on a bench in the sun. Lovely lovely day!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, dame!
> The closest we come to rest is sitting on the floor playing with buttons and beads. He loves them. I try to think of things like that, that he doesn't do at home. We go in the dark rooms and shine flashlights or twist pipe cleaners into shapes. I've got lots of stamps and stickers, stuff like that. Right now, my biggest problem is that my legs hurt, from getting up and down from the floor, a million times a day. I'm going to have to think of more table activities or maybe build up the muscles in my legs. But it is great exhausting fun!


You're a fun GM and I'm wishing a safe gestation and birth of the 4 littlies for your daughter in law.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

[quote lovethelake:
"I never said she posted pictures that were offensive, I said she acted like a lemming and encouraged and approved of the postings that she knew would hurt others. Never once did she (or any other AOLW) tell 'their group' to stop posting things that were knowing hurting people who were caught in the vicious crossfire to get at a few. Many innocent ladies were hurt by postings that they had no idea why someone would do that to their thread. So for Designer to come to D & P to wish people a Merry Christmas without apologizing or accepting responsibility for the pain she and others caused was hollow and just plain rude. She and other AOLW may believe that saying Merry Christmas to the women (and gentleman) on D&P will make things better is just insane thinking. One can forgive, but forgiveness does not mean that a person(s) forgets the pain and should not. To forget is to open one's self to be a target again, which is just stupid. If one really understands the story of Jesus and turning the other cheek, one would realize that it is a form of passive resistance because when one turns the other cheek that way it is almost impossible for a right-handed person to strike that cheek. So one is dared to strike back, but they know that it won't be affective. Interesting." [end quote]
________________________________________________________
LTL:
FYI Designer 1234 was *not* informed of the wallpapering that I had orchestrated. Therefore, *she* was not responsible for anything one way or the other. Why not come after me? It's easier for you to be the coward and call the innocent a liar? Pathetic.
The ladies on D&P for the most part are grown ups and I highly doubt that they felt as though they had been *raped* as you stated. How melodramatic!
What is your purpose here? To make one person who had *nothing* to do with anything your personal whipping boy? You are one sick arse. If you want to beat someone up over this then come to me.
No particular person in your group was attacked personally as you like to fabricate.
Do you realize that *you* are the only one bitching about it? There is only one thing that I can think of (besides you being a pissy complaining pest) that would have you still harping on something that happened months ago.

*You have MAD COW disease.*






Signed,
Bratty Patty aka AOLW
(Awesome Opinionated Liberal Woman.)


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I


Designer1234 said:


> In answer to LTL's post today which denied these types of posts.
> 
> They are incapable of telling the truth, so how can you expect them to be honorable? They take pride in their relentless harming of people's sensibilities and do not care who they hurt or how deeply their actions and words damage their hearts. But as they continue to post here with their relentless attempt at harming innocent women, they show everyone on KP what type of low lifes they really are. They are who they are, sad but true.
> 
> ...


Because she enjoys it so much, maybe LTL could read back through her own posts and point out the hypocrisy and lies.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Must you put your words in red, which symbolizes yelling angrily? Yikes, naptime on the West Coast. I did not say all of them were damaged forever, I said many that had no idea why things were posted that offended them so much. The difference with what happened on D&P and here is that many were so offended and they had no idea why. And those that posted those offensive images knew that, planned it and that is just plain nasty to do to people that had not offended you.
> 
> One of the things I do enjoy is pointing out the hypocrisy and lies. That is not nasty, there is no vicious name calling, just the facts. Facts are not feelings; facts that sometimes many don't realize the difference and react in an emotional manner that can be a nasty knee jerk reaction to their own feelings.


So now you are a psychologist or is this what is fed to you by your own shrink?
You like to point out hypocracy and lies? Look no further than yourself.
As for the red ink, it is used by your buddies all the time. Get educated on online protocol. All caps is yelling. Your idea of facts is very twisted. You do your friends injustice by stating that they are to weak to handle anti- republican memes.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I am feeling enough better that I have decided to call them on their lies. I am sick of the whole business. They think I am too scared, or too simple to fight back -- I tried that - it doesn't work. Thanks Green for your support as well as the support of all my friends. I know you all know the truth.
> 
> I am feeling better each day. Went out for a light dinner tonight, and came back and decided to post this. It has been a good day- now I am tired and I am going to leave and knit for a couple of hours. Slept through the night last night and had a nap this afternoon. This morning I walked l/4 mile on the track with Pat. Three days ago I wouldn't have thought it was possible. Yeay! Have a good sleep everyone it is about 9 pm in the east, only 7.pm here on Vancouver Island. A lovely sunny day - the trees are showing spring growth already. We drove out to Maple Bay Marina and had coffee and a muffin sitting and looking at all the yachts etc. on a bench in the sun. Lovely lovely day!


I'm so glad you're recovering. Tomorrow will be even better.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> I
> 
> Because she enjoys it so much, maybe LTL could read back through her own posts and point out the hypocrisy and lies.


Cookie, have you ever read such BS as that? This is all in her sick and twisted mind. I almost feel sorry for her.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> After you refreshed my memory - - you are right. LTL's posts were wildly exaggerated and offensive.
> 
> We really do love you here, Designer. Just so you don't forget.


I'll second that!!


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

A bit of comic relief and good for a laugh. I just posted a picture of my family and our pussy cat in a new thread entitled Love my pussy cat. Have a peek and a laugh, and yes it is a real live animal.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> I do see that about me. I also am one of the few on here that actually admits and takes responsibility for what I say and do.


Some might differ with you on that. But what I wonder is whether you think taking responsibility after the fact permits you to say whatever come into you mind?

By your logic, if I were to punch you in the nose and make it bleed, I could just admit I did it, take "responsibility" (whatever that means in this context), and walk away as if nothing happened.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> http://racialequity.org/docs/Sustaining%20Racial%20Justice%20Action%20inPhilanthropyFergusonBeyond.pdf


This was very interesting. Did you read it? More importantly, did you understand it.

What this particular group, PRE, wants to do is change the way protests are done - from the messy kind of reactive protest (as when people are protesting about a policeman killing a boy and being released) to something more well planned and more able to promote racial justice.

This organization uses philanthropy to end the kind of rioting and store-burning that you complain about and instead protest in ways that will have an effect. *Please show me where it says anything like "What we want to do is pay for destructive protests, and we'll spend millions doing it."*


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Solo about Designer1234....again.
> 
> Rude, shameful and thoroughly untrue statements about a lovely lady. That's my honest opinion and I'm sticking to it.


I just figured it out. The reason LTL thinks we're all so old is that they all act like 8-year-olds and we don't. Whatever that feud is with Designer, it's so old it has a beard, yet they won't stop. Just like 8-year-olds.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Same here as far as DH. He traveled a great deal on business. I did a bit of it, but I've always loved travel.
> 
> No ocean cruises? So far it's Eve, Patty, DGreen, me, and ??? I'm a bad record-keeper.


Me, too.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I just figured it out. The reason LTL thinks we're all so old is that they all act like 8-year-olds and we don't. Whatever that feud is with Designer, it's so old it has a beard, yet they won't stop. Just like 8-year-olds.


Too MOOOch flatulence out of that bunch. Their only contribution to the world.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Must you put your words in red, which symbolizes yelling angrily? Yikes, naptime on the West Coast. I did not say all of them were damaged forever, I said many that had no idea why things were posted that offended them so much. The difference with what happened on D&P and here is that many were so offended and they had no idea why. And those that posted those offensive images knew that, planned it and that is just plain nasty to do to people that had not offended you.
> 
> One of the things I do enjoy is pointing out the hypocrisy and lies. That is not nasty, there is no vicious name calling, just the facts. Facts are not feelings; facts that sometimes many don't realize the difference and react in an emotional manner that can be a nasty knee jerk reaction to their own feelings.


By what rules does red symbolize yelling angrily? And why do so many successful people wear red as a power color?

Wikipedia says "Because it is the color of blood, red has historically been associated with sacrifice, danger and courage. Modern surveys in the United States and Europe show red is the color most commonly associated with heat, activity, passion, sexuality, anger, love, and joy."

It also says "Pope Innocent IV (1400-1410) dressed in red, the symbol of the blood of Christ." Was he yelling angrily?

And I have yet to learn why anti-Republican cartoons are so offensive that 2 months later the sensitive plants in D&P haven't gotten over them. Or maybe it's just you who keeps bringing it up. Hmmm?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Yawn.


Actually, it's quite an interesting website. It doesn't say anything that joey thinks it says.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> By what rules does red symbolize yelling angrily? And why do so many successful people wear red as a power color?
> 
> Wikipedia says "Because it is the color of blood, red has historically been associated with sacrifice, danger and courage. Modern surveys in the United States and Europe show red is the color most commonly associated with heat, activity, passion, sexuality, anger, love, and joy."
> 
> ...


Not to mention Nancy Reagan wore red. Was she yelling???
She keeps bringing it up because she has nothing else of any kind of substance to post.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> It was LTL - I will try to find the post if necessary


She has said it many times, in fact, whenever she sees an opening.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Do you mean this ?

[quote LTL]
"But I need to pray about how to forgive those that purposefully and cruelly attacked my friends to their very core. I can't image having such an evil soul that allows someone to justify such satanic behavior. I pray that I will forgive, but I will never forget what they did, who they are, how they created a mob mentality that made them lose their humanity. I also pray that the lemmings that followed the most evil of the evil will ask for forgiveness from those who they hurt and violated. They do not seem to understand how much they hurt the ladies on this thread and how long (if ever) they will heal from the pain." [end quote]

This is not a rational person. Posting memes is Satanic? They were inhumane? I must be the "most evil of the evil." :XD: :XD: :XD: 
Notice she has dropped her usual "cult" description to lemmings? She must have learned a new word. 
This is the biggest display of BS that I have ever read on this site sans
KPG. I can't grasp the mentality that she would think that these women were psychologically damaged by anti republican pics.
Next she'll have the vapors.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> In answer to LTL's post today which denied these types of posts.
> 
> What I was replying to is that after all those horrible posts from people she calls friends (and she chimed in too) coming over to D&P to wish those on that thread a Merry Christmas was disrespectful to the ladies that were so deeply wounded by the AOLW's intentional vicious attack on that thread without any remorse.
> 
> ...


There it is again, in red, where she accuses you of "chiming in" with the ones who posted "horrible pictures," then denies she accused you but insists that you "approved of the postings." Which you didn't. She even knows that by now, which makes her a Huge Liar.

They are all very tiresome, those peace-loving vulnerable women.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I am feeling enough better that I have decided to call them on their lies. I am sick of the whole business. They think I am too scared, or too simple to fight back -- I tried that - it doesn't work. Thanks Green for your support as well as the support of all my friends. I know you all know the truth.
> 
> I am feeling better each day. Went out for a light dinner tonight, and came back and decided to post this. It has been a good day- now I am tired and I am going to leave and knit for a couple of hours. Slept through the night last night and had a nap this afternoon. This morning I walked l/4 mile on the track with Pat. Three days ago I wouldn't have thought it was possible. Yeay! Have a good sleep everyone it is about 9 pm in the east, only 7.pm here on Vancouver Island. A lovely sunny day - the trees are showing spring growth already. We drove out to Maple Bay Marina and had coffee and a muffin sitting and looking at all the yachts etc. on a bench in the sun. Lovely lovely day!


I'm very happy to hear this. Rest well.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> [quote lovethelake:
> "I never said she posted pictures that were offensive, I said she acted like a lemming and encouraged and approved of the postings that she knew would hurt others. Never once did she (or any other AOLW) tell 'their group' to stop posting things that were knowing hurting people who were caught in the vicious crossfire to get at a few. Many innocent ladies were hurt by postings that they had no idea why someone would do that to their thread. So for Designer to come to D & P to wish people a Merry Christmas without apologizing or accepting responsibility for the pain she and others caused was hollow and just plain rude. She and other AOLW may believe that saying Merry Christmas to the women (and gentleman) on D&P will make things better is just insane thinking. One can forgive, but forgiveness does not mean that a person(s) forgets the pain and should not. To forget is to open one's self to be a target again, which is just stupid. If one really understands the story of Jesus and turning the other cheek, one would realize that it is a form of passive resistance because when one turns the other cheek that way it is almost impossible for a right-handed person to strike that cheek. So one is dared to strike back, but they know that it won't be affective. Interesting." [end quote]
> ________________________________________________________
> LTL:
> ...


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> There it is again, in red, where she accuses you of "chiming in" with the ones who posted "horrible pictures," then denies she accused you but insists that you "approved of the postings." Which you didn't. She even knows that by now, which makes her a Huge Liar.
> 
> They are all very tiresome, those peace-loving vulnerable women.


What's more tiring is her constant bullying of Designer. She has no clue what went on that night except that we posted anti repug memes. 
I have told her that I was the ring leader and that I also ended it. Shirley had nothing to do with any of it. She was not online when we posted in the "pasture". But she continues to rag and harp on Designer regardless.
I not only find her a huge liar, but also a huge bully knowing that I started the TP job. She is a coward who has to pick on the innocent one.(Not that posting anti repug memes is a felonious matter. Nor is it rape as she had screamed.
One more thing, the ladies who were online in D&P know exactly why it was done. We spoke to them afterward. So why does this COW have her have her tail in knots? Has she conveniently forgotten the reason why we did it? I think she has selective memory when it suits her.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> I
> 
> Because she enjoys it so much, maybe LTL could read back through her own posts and point out the hypocrisy and lies.


That sounds like a fun game. I hope LTL plays to win.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> So now you are a psychologist or is this what is fed to you by your own shrink?
> You like to point out hypocrisy and lies? Look no further than yourself.
> As for the red ink, it is used by your buddies all the time. Get educated on online protocol. All caps is yelling. Your idea of facts is very twisted. You do your friends injustice by stating that they are too weak to handle anti- republican memes.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Too MOOOch flatulence out of that bunch. Their only contribution to the world.


Hey, we can blame them for the icecaps melting. Their methane is a worse greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Not to mention Nancy Reagan wore red. Was she yelling???
> She keeps bringing it up because she has nothing else of any kind of substance to post.


You betcha.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Do you mean this ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She is really very funny. I wonder whether that's how she wants to look.

Maybe not, because of that Satanic bs.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> What's more tiring is her constant bullying of Designer. She has no clue what went on that night except that we posted anti repug memes.
> I have told her that I was the ring leader and that I also ended it. Shirley had nothing to do with any of it. She was not online when we posted in the "pasture". But she continues to rag and harp on Designer regardless.
> I not only find her a huge liar, but also a huge bully knowing that I started the TP job. She is a coward who has to pick on the innocent one.(Not that posting anti repug memes is a felonious matter. Nor is it rape as she had screamed.
> One more thing, the ladies who were online in D&P know exactly why it was done. We spoke to them afterward. So why does this dodo bird have her feathers ruffled?


Let's see: coward, bully, liar, cry-baby, ignoramus, nasty - I know I've left a lot out, but it's pretty late.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Rafiki had a great message in her post "How you are treated vs How you react...." today. I think we all should read it and take her message to heart. http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-312937-1.html


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Same here as far as DH. He traveled a great deal on business. I did a bit of it, but I've always loved travel.
> 
> No ocean cruises? So far it's Eve, Patty, DGreen, me, and ??? I'm a bad record-keeper.


I went on an ocean cruise once and it was not good. The ship was the FairStar (out of commission now), one of P&O Cruises ships. It was very popular with people between the ages of 18 - 24. I was in my early 30's and travelled with a friend of around the same age. My friend was a drop-dead gorgeous woman with a figure and a tan to die for and then there was me, slimmish and as pale as the moon.

Anyway, the first three days at sea was horribly rough and most people (including my friend), were in their cabins with sea sickness. Not me though. I was fine and spent the time wandering around looking at all the attractions. The cruise took us to the south pacific islands like Fiji, New Caledonia, Vanuatu etc., so every day we were motor-boated to the islands which was fine. The horror occurred on board night after night with the antics of the 18 - 24's. Every morning there would be vomit, rubbish and comatose bodies lying around the galley-ways when we got up. And sleep? Forget about it. Often I'd get up, get dressed and take myself off to one of the bars. The noise outside our cabin was monstrous.

Days on the ship (when no island in sight), for my friend at least, were spent with her sunbathing, swimming, jogging around the deck and all the while she had an army of men drooling after her. I sat in the shade reading various books feeling terribly bored.

The only good part about it was the evening meal and entertainment. I'll give it that much but I will never, as long as I live and breath, go on a cruise again.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Must you put your words in red, which symbolizes yelling angrily? Yikes, naptime on the West Coast. I did not say all of them were damaged forever, I said many that had no idea why things were posted that offended them so much. The difference with what happened on D&P and here is that many were so offended and they had no idea why. And those that posted those offensive images knew that, planned it and that is just plain nasty to do to people that had not offended you.
> 
> One of the things I do enjoy is pointing out the hypocrisy and lies. That is not nasty, there is no vicious name calling, just the facts. Facts are not feelings; facts that sometimes many don't realize the difference and react in an emotional manner that can be a nasty knee jerk reaction to their own feelings.


Understand this fact: as usual, you write in such a cryptic fashion that it's impossible to understand. And that's a good thing for me anyway.

And this fact: you and your mate Solow are only repeating yourselves every time you post here anyway. You may as well write 'ditto' and be done with it.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Someone - it might not have been you - did say some of the ladies were so deeply hurt they might never get over it. Fragile, I guess. Perhaps sheltered their entire lives?


Annoyed would be more like it. Deeply hurt indeed. :hunf:


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Why don't you assign one of your group to go back and review the Denim attack? Perhaps you might be able to figure out what was so particularly offensive. Then y'all might be able to stop stop playing at being so innocent or actually being so ignorant. 

You've been given clues but you've ignored them and even mocked them, so I guess I'll have to speak very slowly: 
Check.. out.. pictures.. posted.. by.. Susan.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Why don't you assign one of your group to go back and review the Denim attack? Perhaps you might be able to figure out what was so particularly offensive. Then y'all might be able to stop stop playing at being so innocent or actually being so ignorant.
> 
> You've been given clues but you've ignored them and even mocked them, so I guess I'll have to speak very slowly:
> Check.. out.. pictures.. posted.. by.. Susan.


Gerslay, your mates LTL and Solow are the one's constantly bringing this thing up and I say get past it. So what? A bunch of anti repug memes! Big deal.

You and yours put up anti dem memes all the time over on D&P. Get with the program.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Anyway, on a far more pleasant note. I have published a picture of my latest project. You can see it here:

http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-312968-1.html


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Gerslay, your mates LTL and Solow are the one's constantly bringing this thing up and I say get past it. So what? A bunch of anti repug memes! Big deal.
> 
> You and yours put up anti dem memes all the time over on D&P. Get with the program.


Remain in your ignorance then...your choice!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> You're a very special person to Max. I can just see your blue fish bowls with Goldfish crackers.


Good idea! Thanks!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> You're a fun GM and I'm wishing a safe gestation and birth of the 4 littlies for your daughter in law.


Thanks, Wombat!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> A bit of comic relief and good for a laugh. I just posted a picture of my family and our pussy cat in a new thread entitled Love my pussy cat. Have a peek and a laugh, and yes it is a real live animal.


Cool pic! I think I'd be afraid to get that close.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Beautiful color and your choice of pattern is lovely. Thanks for the inspiration.



Wombatnomore said:


> Anyway, on a far more pleasant note. I have published a picture of my latest project. You can see it here:
> 
> http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-312968-1.html


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Those are good pictures for the family album. Thanks for sharing.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Cool pic! I think I'd be afraid to get that close.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Just promise me that you will not follow her example and become a picky eater. She is so fussy with what she eats these days I honestly wonder how n big bshe maintains a healthy diet. She does not take any extra vitamins or supplements and does not need any of the medications that a lot of elderly people need.


As my budget is taking a few body blows, I think about becoming a vegan... I do have a freezer full of meat and things I've cooked in big batches and divided into meal-size amounts, so I have time to plan ahead. I do know a bit about good nutrition. It could be fun cooking differently than I do now.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I have friends who love cruises and won't take any other type of vacation. I always think "there's no accounting for taste," and say No thank you.


I keep getting enticing pamphlets about Viking Cruises, all sorts of European and Chinese river cruises. If I won the lottery you wouldn't see me for a a few years as I would be traveling to all sorts of places, no airplanes allowed.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> As my budget is taking a few body blows, I think about becoming a vegan... I do have a freezer full of meat and things I've cooked in big batches and divided into meal-size amounts, so I have time to plan ahead. I do know a bit about good nutrition. It could be fun cooking differently than I do now.


It is fun - for a while. I find myself getting very tired of a strict hearth-healthy diet and go back to slipping in some of my old favorites.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> I have no desire to go on a cruise. So many days trapped on a ship with a million people you don't know or care to know? A European river cruise sounds better, but I can't get DH interested.


cookiequeen
no interest in joining thousands on a big hunk of concrete floating on Water. A Danube River Cruise is sheer luxury. Always something to see, stops to hop off and see the surroundings, no barfing since the Waters are quite calm and the amount of people on the Ship is very reasonable. Certainly planning to repeat that voyage.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> cookiequeen
> no interest in joining thousands on a big hunk of concrete floating on Water. A Danube River Cruise is sheer luxury. Always something to see, stops to hop off and see the surroundings, no barfing since the Waters are quite calm and the amount of people on the Ship is very reasonable. Certainly planning to repeat that voyage.


My problem would be the flight to Europe. I never want to get on another airplane as long as I live. It's become torture.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I keep getting enticing pamphlets about Viking Cruises, all sorts of European and Chinese river cruises. If I won the lottery you wouldn't see me for a a few years as I would be traveling to all sorts of places, no airplanes allowed.


I think I would spend my time taking trips on all the different railways of the world. The Trans Siberian Railway for a start. Then the trains in India. I would love to do the Indian Pacific and the Ghan in Australia but they are so expensive. In 1958 I accompanied my sister to North Queensland to see her in laws when her husband was killed in a hit and run accident. We went by train and in those days we did not have standard gauge railways throughout the Australian States, every state had a different gauge. The trip took 8 days and we travelled on 8 different trains. If was a wonderful journey for a 17 year old. The interstate freight railway line runs past the rear of my property and I love watching the trains.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I think I would spend my time taking trips on all the different railways of the world. The Trans Siberian Railway for a start. Then the trains in India. I would love to do the Indian Pacific and the Ghan in Australia but they are so expensive. In 1958 I accompanied my sister to North Queensland to see her in laws when her husband was killed in a hit and run accident. We went by train and in those days we did not have standard gauge railways throughout the Australian States, every state had a different gauge. The trip took 8 days and we travelled on 8 different trains. If was a wonderful journey for a 17 year old. The interstate freight railway line runs past the rear of my property and I love watching the trains.


I'd go to Siberia with you, Eve. Actually, any train trip would be lovely. I've enjoyed it every time I've traveled by train. The trip with 8 different trains sounds like a real adventure.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Understand this fact: as usual, you write in such a cryptic fashion that it's impossible to understand. And that's a good thing for me anyway.
> 
> And this fact: you and your mate Solow are only repeating yourselves every time you post here anyway. You may as well write 'ditto' and be done with it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Why don't you assign one of your group to go back and review the Denim attack? Perhaps you might be able to figure out what was so particularly offensive. Then y'all might be able to stop stop playing at being so innocent or actually being so ignorant.
> 
> You've been given clues but you've ignored them and even mocked them, so I guess I'll have to speak very slowly:
> Check.. out.. pictures.. posted.. by.. Susan.


I don't know what specifically Susan posted, but if you've read enough of Susan's messages you'd be surprised at what you learn.

I know there were a few - maybe more than a few - pictures referring to "Republican Jesus." If these bothered you, maybe you ought to have read the words more carefully.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Why don't you assign one of your group to go back and review the Denim attack? Perhaps you might be able to figure out what was so particularly offensive. Then y'all might be able to stop stop playing at being so innocent or actually being so ignorant.
> 
> You've been given clues but you've ignored them and even mocked them, so I guess I'll have to speak very slowly:
> Check.. out.. pictures.. posted.. by.. Susan.


Is there a reason why you can't post the link? Seems to me if you want vindication you would supply that link and be done with it.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I think I would spend my time taking trips on all the different railways of the world. The Trans Siberian Railway for a start. Then the trains in India. I would love to do the Indian Pacific and the Ghan in Australia but they are so expensive. In 1958 I accompanied my sister to North Queensland to see her in laws when her husband was killed in a hit and run accident. We went by train and in those days we did not have standard gauge railways throughout the Australian States, every state had a different gauge. The trip took 8 days and we travelled on 8 different trains. If was a wonderful journey for a 17 year old. The interstate freight railway line runs past the rear of my property and I love watching the trains.


EveMCooke
I am a train buff. No nicer way to travel than by train whether they are the cog rail ones in the mountains or the high speed trains, it is wonderful. Love the sounds of the Mountain climbing trains huffing and puffing up the terrain and the super smooth rides on the high speed ones. Sure hope trains make a come-back since flying is the pits and getting worse it seems and private flying has become terribly expensive. What a dream excursion it would be on the Orient Express. Russia has some glorious trains. France has some which inside make you feel you are in the Palace of Versailles. Why can't we ever be so extraordinary? Well, I know, greed killed our Trains. The automobile industry saw to it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> As my budget is taking a few body blows, I think about becoming a vegan... I do have a freezer full of meat and things I've cooked in big batches and divided into meal-size amounts, so I have time to plan ahead. I do know a bit about good nutrition. It could be fun cooking differently than I do now.


When I first saw your message, somehow "vegan" became "virgin" in my mind. Actually, that made the message even more interesting. Good luck with it.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I think I would spend my time taking trips on all the different railways of the world. The Trans Siberian Railway for a start. Then the trains in India. I would love to do the Indian Pacific and the Ghan in Australia but they are so expensive. In 1958 I accompanied my sister to North Queensland to see her in laws when her husband was killed in a hit and run accident. We went by train and in those days we did not have standard gauge railways throughout the Australian States, every state had a different gauge. The trip took 8 days and we travelled on 8 different trains. If was a wonderful journey for a 17 year old. The interstate freight railway line runs past the rear of my property and I love watching the trains.


Good morning! I have gone on one cruise although for us it was a huge move to New Zealand. We were on the P & O ship the 'ORSOVA in l970 when we moved to NZ when Pat got out of the Service (Canadian) Army. l7 days, stopped at Wai Kiki, Fiji, Western Samoa and docked in Auckland.

We had a great time on the ship considering we were taking our family to an unknown country. The Boys, 13, 10 and our 8 month baby girl. She started crawling on A deck.

Pat and I would look after her all day, and the boys would be free to play games and swim etc. Then after dinner they would take over looking after her and Pat and I would have some time to go to the evening show, or a movie or just sit in the bar and watch the world (ocean) go by. The boys were both wonderful with the little one. We got to know a wonderful Australian lady who, offered to watch her for us in Fiji. What a new and wonderful experience the Fiji open market was for us. We had taken an empty suit case to pick up some masks and fruit bowl and wicker work for our new place in NZ. It was the first time I had a chance to 'dicker' and I had an absolutely great time.

When we left Pago Pago (Samoa) there was a cable strung across the narrowest part of the harbor and as the ship passed under they dropped a huge basket of fangipani and other south south sea flowers. It is a memory I hold very dear.

I have to admit I was a bit nervous when all you could see was endless ocean - we hit one storm while we were in the movie theater and I remember all the groans from the ship and the fact that a lot got sea sick - luckily we didn't. A great memory for our whole family.
In the picture below I am wearing a dress I made from some fabric Pat sent me from Egypt when he was stationed on the Gasa Strip with the UN. It was the time of the short short skirts and long boots. I received 30 parcels of fabric and made some spiffy clothes. Great memory


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I'd go to Siberia with you, Eve. Actually, any train trip would be lovely. I've enjoyed it every time I've traveled by train. The trip with 8 different trains sounds like a real adventure.


May I tag along? Just the thought of trains is romantic. Too many movies, I guess.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Is there a reason why you can't post the link? Seems to me if you want vindication you would supply that link and be done with it.


Exactly. Gerslay seems to prefer being cryptic to giving information.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Good morning! I have gone on one cruise although for us it was a huge move to New Zealand. We were on the P & O ship the 'ORSOVA in l970 when we moved to NZ when Pat got out of the Service (Canadian) Army. l7 days, stopped at Wai Kiki, Fiji, Western Samoa and docked in Auckland.
> 
> We had a great time on the ship considering we were taking our family to an unknown country. The Boys, 13, 10 and our 8 month baby girl. She started crawling on A deck.
> 
> ...


VERY Hot Mama.

I have not been on a cruise, but flying over the Pacific from Papatee to Los Angeles was amazing. The Pacific Ocean is unimaginably huge and empty. 14 hours of flying and we saw nothing but water after the receding beauty of Bora Bora. Our flight was on Air France, though it was a long, long time ago. At the time, their service was incredibly good.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I think I would spend my time taking trips on all the different railways of the world. The Trans Siberian Railway for a start. Then the trains in India. I would love to do the Indian Pacific and the Ghan in Australia but they are so expensive. In 1958 I accompanied my sister to North Queensland to see her in laws when her husband was killed in a hit and run accident. We went by train and in those days we did not have standard gauge railways throughout the Australian States, every state had a different gauge. The trip took 8 days and we travelled on 8 different trains. If was a wonderful journey for a 17 year old. The interstate freight railway line runs past the rear of my property and I love watching the trains.


I love the train too. I loved to travel across Canada and at night listen to the 'clickety click', clickety click. There are very few passenger trains here now. One, the Rocky Mountaineer, is a train that leaves from Calgary and another from Jasper and goes to Vancouver. It is expensive but they have wonderful service and sky dome cars where you can look up and see the beautiful Canadian Rockies. It was on my bucket list, but now I want to go to Port Hardy and stay at a wonderful nature camp - cabins, and hiking trails. Will have to see how it goes.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I am enjoying this thread.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I am enjoying this thread.


You are a hottie!! That dress is so cool. You and Pat make a very handsome couple.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> You are a hottie!! That dress is so cool. You and Pat make a very handsome couple.


That was our biggest adventure. We had a wonderful two plus years there. 45 years ago! still great memories.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> You are a hottie!! That dress is so cool. You and Pat make a very handsome couple.


Quite a bit of the fabric he sent me was Damascus silk with silver or gold inlay. This was a beautiful piece of fabric. I was not much of a sewer so one of my neighbors came over and helped me get the fit right. I actually got quite a bit of wear from this one. There was also a wonderful turquoise silk fabric with silver and tiny bits of bright read throughout. I had an evening gown made from it. Didn't go out that much - I also had a scarf (shawl) made from it. very lovely. I also got many pieces of Egyptian cotton and made dresses and tops that lasted for years. 32 parcels during the year. With jewellry and wonderful fabric. I sewed the whole year as he bought me a sewing machine before he left for the Middle east for a full year. No computers or phones so letters were the only way to keep in contact. I wrote every day - he wrote every other day. They used to call his mail the 'Readers digest" He got the most mail of every one stationed there.

It was a long long bitterly cold year in Edmonton - broke records that year -- coldest in 114 years. I didn't drive. not fun.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> That was our biggest adventure. We had a wonderful two plus years there. 45 years ago! still great memories.


I can't imagine how beautiful it is on that side of the globe. Fiji sounds like paradise.
I had toyed with the idea of of taking the QE ll over to Liverpool and start the tour in England then ferry over to Dublin and lastly Scotland. 
I hear that the North Atlantic can be treacherous, so flying over it will be.
I know for sure that they have a river cruise on the Shannon river in Ireland that we can embark on if we choose to.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Quite a bit of the fabric he sent me was Damascus silk with silver or gold inlay. This was a beautiful piece of fabric. I was not much of a sewer so one of my neighbors came over and helped me get the fit right. I actually got quite a bit of wear from this one. There was also a wonderful turquoise silk fabric with silver and tiny bits of bright read throughout. I had an evening gown made from it. Didn't go out that much - I also had a scarf (shawl) made from it. very lovely. I also got many pieces of Egyptian cotton and made dresses and tops that lasted for years. 32 parcels during the year. With jewellry and wonderful fabric. I sewed the whole year as he bought me a sewing machine before he left for the Middle east for a full year. No computers or phones so letters were the only way to keep in contact. I wrote every day - he wrote every other day. They used to call his mail the 'Readers digest" He got the most mail of every one stationed there.
> 
> It was a long long bitterly cold year in Edmonton - broke records that year -- coldest in 114 years. I didn't drive. not fun.


I can't imagine how lonely you must have been during that time. How nice that he sent you the fabrics and jewelry to keep you occupied. I am sure you had many other projects as well.
I know this is going to sound a little kitchy, but wasn't it more fun anticipating that letter in the post versus email?


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

DGreen said:


> It is fun - for a while. I find myself getting very tired of a strict hearth-healthy diet and go back to slipping in some of my old favorites.


I'm sure that's what would happen to me. A big part of why I'd do that is my mother is very underweight and I've been making things she likes a lot because she'll eat them.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I can't imagine how lonely you must have been during that time. How nice that he sent you the fabrics and jewelry to keep you occupied. I am sure you had many other projects as well.
> I know this is going to sound a little kitchy, but wasn't it more fun anticipating that letter in the post versus email?


We didn't even dream of the computers. I received so many letters and parcels. It helped. I had the two boys at home both under school age - I pulled them over to the grocery store on a tobaggon, Kelly (youngest, sitting in a box)) in a and Rob holding on. Then took a taxi home. It was a nightmare.

Kelly was 2and a half when he left and 3 and a half when he got home. Pat sent me a 8 mm. Movie player - and had his friends take pictures where he waved to the boys, sent movies of the Cairo zoo, and pictures of him , and I showed them over and over at home. When Pat got home Kellly looked at him, a beautiful smile and he hugged Pat's leg and said 'Daddy you were gone so long! Other children that age didn't remember their dad. I was afraid that would happen but we talked about Daddy every day and included him in our Prayers at night. Brought tears to Pat's eyes.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> We didn't even dream of the computers. I received so many letters and parcels. It helped. I had the two boys at home both under school age - I pulled them over to the grocery store on a tobaggon, Kelly (youngest, sitting in a box)) in a and Rob holding on. Then took a taxi home. It was a nightmare.
> 
> Kelly was 2and a half when he left and 3 and a half when he got home. Pat sent me a movie camera and had his friends take pictures where he waved to the boys, sent pictures of the Cairo zoo, and pictures of him , and I showed them over and over at home. When Pat got home Kellly looked at him, a beautiful smile and he hugged Pat's leg and said 'Daddy you were gone so long! Other children that age didn't remember their dad. I was afraid that would happen but we talked about Daddy every day and included him in our Prayers at night. Brought tears to Pat's eyes.


Brought tears to MY eyes.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> *CAPS Sumbolize angry yelling*. Colors draw attention to the part that is colored. Why don't you look in the mirror LTL. None of your facts are true - and you love to attack. You came on here and tried to hold a pity party. "Those poor women seemed devastated, They would never forget it " - you come wherever we are and say outrageous things, you scold us, you insult us -- you say how superior you are, and on and on. You stop and it might surprise you how little you are missed. Solo does the same thing. Her twisted posts about me are practically scary as they don't make any sense. She is obsessed. (We all know that). She won't hear from me once she leaves me alone.
> 
> But it has to be alone, not jumping in every other time I post. I will continue posting what I want, when I want. If she wan'ts it stopped, then both of you stop attacking. That is the point. neither of you want it stopped because you both get your jollies by trying to hurt, or upset us.


I will jump in here and speak to you directly instead of going through LTL.

Okay Designer, I will leave you alone. That includes not bringing up your name or your actions, past and present, in any post that I make. Can I expect the same from you? Do we have a deal?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> I will jump in here and speak to you directly instead of going through LTL.
> 
> Okay Designer, I will leave you alone. That includes not bringing up your name or your actions, past and present, in any post that I make. Can I expect the same from you? Do we have a deal?


I have always wanted that deal. Agreed!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That sounds better than I'd hoped. Only one unpack/pack and see many interesting places. No seasickness worries...even for me. I gotta go and twist someone's arm.



Huckleberry said:


> cookiequeen
> no interest in joining thousands on a big hunk of concrete floating on Water. A Danube River Cruise is sheer luxury. Always something to see, stops to hop off and see the surroundings, no barfing since the Waters are quite calm and the amount of people on the Ship is very reasonable. Certainly planning to repeat that voyage.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I had a return trip from Italy with four stops once. And that was before flying got nasty. I was ready to lay down crying in the airport and just relocate to Minneapolis.



DGreen said:


> My problem would be the flight to Europe. I never want to get on another airplane as long as I live. It's become torture.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I love trains too. There is an old hotel designed by Mary Coulter, a very famous architect that is refurbished and reopened called La Posada. It's right on the Burlington Northern RR, Winslow AZ. (Sitting on a corner in Winslow Arizona, What a fine site to see. Eagles) You can eat and watch trains. Park benches line the station. And they're always full. People from babies to older folks. I'll go back anytime.



EveMCooke said:


> I think I would spend my time taking trips on all the different railways of the world. The Trans Siberian Railway for a start. Then the trains in India. I would love to do the Indian Pacific and the Ghan in Australia but they are so expensive. In 1958 I accompanied my sister to North Queensland to see her in laws when her husband was killed in a hit and run accident. We went by train and in those days we did not have standard gauge railways throughout the Australian States, every state had a different gauge. The trip took 8 days and we travelled on 8 different trains. If was a wonderful journey for a 17 year old. The interstate freight railway line runs past the rear of my property and I love watching the trains.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> I'd go to Siberia with you, Eve. Actually, any train trip would be lovely. I've enjoyed it every time I've traveled by train. The trip with 8 different trains sounds like a real adventure.


 :shock: :shock: :shock: Remember this is from a brave soul who drove an RV for three months and thousands of miles....and backed up and parked in tight places. This girl knows adventure. ( But she did have home cooked meals, and her own bed and bathroom. Smart lady.)


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> When I first saw your message, somehow "vegan" became "virgin" in my mind. Actually, that made the message even more interesting. Good luck with it.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Smokin Shirley. Hot. Hot. Hot. Cool picture. Wonderful stories. Thanks for sharing.



Designer1234 said:


> Good morning! I have gone on one cruise although for us it was a huge move to New Zealand. We were on the P & O ship the 'ORSOVA in l970 when we moved to NZ when Pat got out of the Service (Canadian) Army. l7 days, stopped at Wai Kiki, Fiji, Western Samoa and docked in Auckland.
> 
> We had a great time on the ship considering we were taking our family to an unknown country. The Boys, 13, 10 and our 8 month baby girl. She started crawling on A deck.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I flew Air France 20 years ago. Champagne, china, great food...and that was coach. (And seats big enough for your whole fanny.) Viva la France!



DGreen said:


> VERY Hot Mama.
> 
> I have not been on a cruise, but flying over the Pacific from Papatee to Los Angeles was amazing. The Pacific Ocean is unimaginably huge and empty. 14 hours of flying and we saw nothing but water after the receding beauty of Bora Bora. Our flight was on Air France, though it was a long, long time ago. At the time, their service was incredibly good.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It is fun.



Designer1234 said:


> I am enjoying this thread.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You and Pat are wonderful correspondents. Did you save any? Do the grand kids know? Good role models.



Designer1234 said:


> Quite a bit of the fabric he sent me was Damascus silk with silver or gold inlay. This was a beautiful piece of fabric. I was not much of a sewer so one of my neighbors came over and helped me get the fit right. I actually got quite a bit of wear from this one. There was also a wonderful turquoise silk fabric with silver and tiny bits of bright read throughout. I had an evening gown made from it. Didn't go out that much - I also had a scarf (shawl) made from it. very lovely. I also got many pieces of Egyptian cotton and made dresses and tops that lasted for years. 32 parcels during the year. With jewellry and wonderful fabric. I sewed the whole year as he bought me a sewing machine before he left for the Middle east for a full year. No computers or phones so letters were the only way to keep in contact. I wrote every day - he wrote every other day. They used to call his mail the 'Readers digest" He got the most mail of every one stationed there.
> 
> It was a long long bitterly cold year in Edmonton - broke records that year -- coldest in 114 years. I didn't drive. not fun.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I can't wait to hear the tales. Go for the river cruise.



BrattyPatty said:


> I can't imagine how beautiful it is on that side of the globe. Fiji sounds like paradise.
> I had toyed with the idea of of taking the QE ll over to Liverpool and start the tour in England then ferry over to Dublin and lastly Scotland.
> I hear that the North Atlantic can be treacherous, so flying over it will be.
> I know for sure that they have a river cruise on the Shannon river in Ireland that we can embark on if we choose to.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I loved real letters. Stationary was one of my major purchases in college....and sealing wax. Emails are still good, but I remember letters and stamps.



BrattyPatty said:


> I can't imagine how lonely you must have been during that time. How nice that he sent you the fabrics and jewelry to keep you occupied. I am sure you had many other projects as well.
> I know this is going to sound a little kitchy, but wasn't it more fun anticipating that letter in the post versus email?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> We didn't even dream of the computers. I received so many letters and parcels. It helped. I had the two boys at home both under school age - I pulled them over to the grocery store on a tobaggon, Kelly (youngest, sitting in a box)) in a and Rob holding on. Then took a taxi home. It was a nightmare.
> 
> Kelly was 2and a half when he left and 3 and a half when he got home. Pat sent me a 8 mm. Movie player - and had his friends take pictures where he waved to the boys, sent movies of the Cairo zoo, and pictures of him , and I showed them over and over at home. When Pat got home Kellly looked at him, a beautiful smile and he hugged Pat's leg and said 'Daddy you were gone so long! Other children that age didn't remember their dad. I was afraid that would happen but we talked about Daddy every day and included him in our Prayers at night. Brought tears to Pat's eyes.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I can see a long, happy marriage in the making. You should write a book.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

damemary said:


> I flew Air France 20 years ago. Champagne, china, great food...and that was coach. (And seats big enough for your whole fanny.) Viva la France!


The only downside of Air France was the outbound leg from Los Angeles to Tahiti. Our flight had originated in Paris and had been in the air for many hours already. When we boarded, the stench of body odor in the cabin nearly knocked me over. No kidding - my eyes watered.

Thank goodness for the noses' ability to go blind to smells after a while! On the return flight, the cabin was immaculately clean and fresh.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> You and Pat are wonderful correspondents. Did you save any? Do the grand kids know? Good role models.


We have a few but with him being away so much our letters filled boxes. I read them all before we sorted them out. It was like a diary of our lives. I have written stories of all our trips, NEW ZEALAND, our time living in the 5th wheel, our years as snow birds in Mesa Arizona, our years since then. As both our Son and daughter were each with an Airline, Air Canada and West jet - we got special rates so after we decided not to go south we took trips all over the place. We had to go standbye but it was an adventure. Shanghai, HongKong, Hawaii 3 times, Australia twice, Scotland, the Maritimes - two trips to Vancouver Island so it made a difference. Life has been one adventure after another and we have enjoyed each of the different parts of our life. Lots of separation when he was in the service though -- hard on me, but exciting for him.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> In the picture below I am wearing a dress I made from some fabric Pat sent me from Egypt when he was stationed on the Gasa Strip with the UN. It was the time of the short short skirts and long boots. I received 30 parcels of fabric and made some spiffy clothes. Great memory


Groovy!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I love trains too. There is an old hotel designed by Mary Coulter, a very famous architect that is refurbished and reopened called La Posada. It's right on the Burlington Northern RR, Winslow AZ. (Sitting on a corner in Winslow Arizona, What a fine site to see. Eagles) You can eat and watch trains. Park benches line the station. And they're always full. People from babies to older folks. I'll go back anytime.


Hey! I stood on the corner in Winslow Arizona!

When we were planning our trip to Arizona, I asked my hubby how far we'd be from Winslow. He asked why and I said I wanted to stand on the corner. He didn't get it until I started singing the song. Everyone else in our group thought I was crazy, but it was fun. There were seven of us, DD, DH and I in one car and DS, DIL, DIL's mother and niester (niece adopted by mother), in the other car. The Eagles is our traveling music.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

La Posada is 1/2 mile down the road if you were at the corner that's marked.

...What a fine sight to see...



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Hey! I stood on the corner in Winslow Arizona!
> 
> When we were planning our trip to Arizona, I asked my hubby how far we'd be from Winslow. He asked why and I said I wanted to stand on the corner. He didn't get it until I started singing the song. Everyone else in our group thought I was crazy, but it was fun. There were seven of us, DD, DH and I in one car and DS, DIL, DIL's mother and niester (niece adopted by mother), in the other car. The Eagles is our traveling music.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> We have a few but with him being away so much our letters filled boxes. I read them all before we sorted them out. It was like a diary of our lives. I have written stories of all our trips, NEW ZEALAND, our time living in the 5th wheel, our years as snow birds in Mesa Arizona, our years since then. As both our Son and daughter were each with an Airline, Air Canada and West jet - we got special rates so after we decided not to go south we took trips all over the place. We had to go standbye but it was an adventure. Shanghai, HongKong, Hawaii 3 times, Australia twice, Scotland, the Maritimes - two trips to Vancouver Island so it made a difference. Life has been one adventure after another and we have enjoyed each of the different parts of our life. Lots of separation when he was in the service though -- hard on me, but exciting for him.


You've really had an exciting, interesting life. I love hearing your stories! Thanks for sharing them.

I love your pics as well! Fun to see!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> La Posada is 1/2 mile down the road if you were at the corner that's marked.
> 
> ...What a fine sight to see...


I'm sure I saw it without realizing it's significance. We drove around a bit after we did the tourist thing (and bought t shirts). After we left there, we ate at a Fifties Diner. I can't remember if it was in Winslow, or nearby.

But...if I remember correctly, the "fine sight" was a girl in a flat bed Ford. We missed her. :lol:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Good morning! I have gone on one cruise although for us it was a huge move to New Zealand. We were on the P & O ship the 'ORSOVA in l970 when we moved to NZ when Pat got out of the Service (Canadian) Army. l7 days, stopped at Wai Kiki, Fiji, Western Samoa and docked in Auckland.
> 
> We had a great time on the ship considering we were taking our family to an unknown country. The Boys, 13, 10 and our 8 month baby girl. She started crawling on A deck.
> 
> ...


You look so groovy in that photo Designer! I love that look.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> I will jump in here and speak to you directly instead of going through LTL.
> 
> Okay Designer, I will leave you alone. That includes not bringing up your name or your actions, past and present, in any post that I make. Can I expect the same from you? Do we have a deal?


How big of you solow! Won't hold my breath.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl wrote:
W

"It's interesting that the person the right hates almost as much as - maybe even more than - President Obama is a Jewish holocaust survivor. That's as much a coincidence as the President's being a black man".
-------------------------
Purl * it was never established that the Jewish prisoner survived the holocaust. I would doubt that he did as most of those who arrived at any of the camps were either made to dig a long trench then strip of their clothes and then stand beside the trench and then they were shot. Not all died from the shootings, but they were buried anyway.* Pat visited Belsen and he brought back a book describing the way the prisosners were murdered. He said he had nightmares for ages.

In those that had the ovens they were stripped of their clothes, locked in the furnace and burned to death or were poisoned with poison gas. *Very few Jewish men, women or children survived*.

 It amazes me that LTL would even make an argument about those horrible actions. It shows she is too ignorant to know, or too uncaring to give a darn.

The above is the truth - I saw the movies that were first shown and later, in the movie house with my mother and sister. The theatre was full of sobs - we had heard rumors but because they were so dreadful some of them were not shown after a couple of weeks.

They are in the archives of the concentration camps. Pat went through Belsen when he was stationed in Germany a few years after the war ended when he was sent there to represent the UN or Nato with the Canadian army.I am not sure which. It was before I met him. He was l8 or 19 years old then.

*It angers me at her lack of compassion and off the cuff statements that she has not a feeling of horror. She is really something our LTL. She should be ashamed*.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> How big of you solow! Won't hold my breath.


I have agreed Wombat-


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I have agreed Wombat-


Well good on you Designer and I hope 'the deal' holds true.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Poor Purl wrote:
> W
> 
> "It's interesting that the person the right hates almost as much as - maybe even more than - President Obama is a Jewish holocaust survivor. That's as much a coincidence as the President's being a black man".
> ...


Unfortunately, that type never feels shame. I think if they admitted to being ashamed of what they do, they'd never be able to stop.

BUT, my message about a holocaust survivor was not about the anonymous lost soul in the camp. I was referring to George Soros, whom the right continues to demonize. This time they claim he paid for the Ferguson riots, which apparently cost $33 million. This is so absurd that I find it hard to think even they believe it.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm sure I saw it without realizing it's significance. We drove around a bit after we did the tourist thing (and bought t shirts). After we left there, we ate at a Fifties Diner. I can't remember if it was in Winslow, or nearby.
> 
> But...if I remember correctly, the "fine sight" was a girl in a flat bed Ford. We missed her. :lol:


Wasn't the girl in the flat bed Ford YOU trying to get a look at DH?

Mary Coulter, the architect of La Posada, designesd some building at Grand Canyon. It looks a bit like an old hacienda with lawn and bougainvillea.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And I imagine it will be a great relief if it holds, and I truly hope it will.



Designer1234 said:


> I have agreed Wombat-


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> First, the babies haven't been born yet. Dil is 14 weeks along. A cerclage is a surgical procedure where they stitch up the cervix with a stitch that resembles a purse string. This is used for women with an incompetent cervix. Dil has had 3 miscarriages and lost triplets who were born prematurely. With the triplets, they did the cerclage too late. This time it was just in time. I do feel sorry for my dil. It will be very difficult for her. I'm trying to help out by going over in the mornings to do laundry and housework and watch Max. Then I take Max back to my house till his daddy gets off work. I just started doing that this week. It's exhausting but I'll do anything to assure a safe delivery.
> 
> I just started a PINK sunsuit but I'm dismayed because I need a 16" size 2 circular needle, but I only have 24". (The reason I stress PINK is because I have 3 grandsons and no granddaughters.) Maybe I'll start another and put on stitch holder til I get the 16". I see a trip to the yarn store, in my future.


Thanks for the medical information. Am always interested in these things, health being a major part of my interests and work in life.

I can only imagine the stress being felt over this pregnancy given the history of losses. That is wonderful of you to take 
your grandson daily and help with the housework. Are there other family members or friends to help out? That is a lot you have taken on.

Do you know there will be gd's coming? I saw a pink blanket the other day. My comment to the knitter was it was 'so pink!' She laughed and said 'yes, it was.' I think the only pink thing I ever made was a little scarf that someone asked me to make for her pink loving gd.

I hope your DIL makes it through this time and the babies are healthy. She does have a ways to go yet. Hope you do, too.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Wasn't the girl in the flat bed Ford YOU trying to get a look at DH?
> 
> Mary Coulter, the architect of La Posada, designesd some building at Grand Canyon. It looks a bit like an old hacienda with lawn and bougainvillea.


Ahahahahaha!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Thanks for the medical information. Am always interested in these things, health being a major part of my interests and work in life.
> 
> I can only imagine the stress being felt over this pregnancy given the history of losses. That is wonderful of you to take
> your grandson daily and help with the housework. Are there other family members or friends to help out? That is a lot you have taken on.
> ...


Thanks, Tamarque! 
Now dil thinks she won't need help everyday for a while yet. So it looks like I'll just being going over a couple times a week for now. They don't want to burn me out. At 20 weeks she will be on complete bed rest. There really isn't anyone else who will watch Max for very long. No one else has the patience. His other Grandma can't stand it when he turns the lights on and off (for hours) and opens and closes doors. Or when he has meltdowns where he throws his head on the floor. I think Max has a mild case of Autism. I've done a lot of research, and I'm sure. His parents know that something is wrong. Their pediatrician says he's fine. They've also gone to a child psychologist, who thinks they aren't doing things right. But I KNOW that there's something wrong with Max. Last week, his mother actually said, "I wonder if he has Autism". That will be the first step. They need to find different doctors. I know personally, how difficult it is to make yourself know that something is wrong with your child, when the pediatrician tells you everything is fine. I lived it with my first son, before he was diagnosed with Cerebral Palsy. For 11 months, the pediatrician told me there was nothing wrong. Once I got the courage to move on, we moved forward in meeting his needs.

I'm very good with Max because I've read a lot and I've worked with kids like him before. The key is calm and patience. I make sure to make eye contact when giving him instructions. Eye contact is difficult for him but I hold his face until he looks at me. Then he gets it. I speak in a calm voice. During playtime, I do what he wants to do. I don't care if every light in the house has to be on. I don't care if cupboard doors have to be open or room doors have to be closed. It's important to him and doesn't matter to me. Others can't stand it, it drives them crazy. He's not a bad boy and doesn't do bad things. He just has a major meltdown if people don't let him do these things. Most people don't understand and don't have the patience. I would HATE for him to be in a daycare setting with people who don't love him. I can't imagine anything worse for him. There will be lots of people volunteering to help with the babies but I will make sure that Max's needs are met. And I will love him when others won't!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, Tamarque!
> Now dil thinks she won't need help everyday for a while yet. So it looks like I'll just being going over a couple times a week for now. They don't want to burn me out. At 20 weeks she will be on complete bed rest. There really isn't anyone else who will watch Max for very long. No one else has the patience. His other Grandma can't stand it when he turns the lights on and off (for hours) and opens and closes doors. Or when he has meltdowns where he throws his head on the floor. I think Max has a mild case of Autism. I've done a lot of research, and I'm sure. His parents know that something is wrong. Their pediatrician says he's fine. They've also gone to a child psychologist, who thinks they aren't doing things right. But I KNOW that there's something wrong with Max. Last week, his mother actually said, "I wonder if he has Autism". That will be the first step. They need to find different doctors. I know personally, how difficult it is to make yourself know that something is wrong with your child, when the pediatrician tells you everything is fine. I lived it with my first son, before he was diagnosed with Cerebral Palsy. For 11 months, the pediatrician told me there was nothing wrong. Once I got the courage to move on, we moved forward in meeting his needs.
> 
> I'm very good with Max because I've read a lot and I've worked with kids like him before. The key is calm and patience. I make sure to make eye contact when giving him instructions. Eye contact is difficult for him but I hold his face until he looks at me. Then he gets it. I speak in a calm voice. During playtime, I do what he wants to do. I don't care if every light in the house has to be on. I don't care if cupboard doors have to be open or room doors have to be closed. It's important to him and doesn't matter to me. Others can't stand it, it drives them crazy. He's not a bad boy and doesn't do bad things. He just has a major meltdown if people don't let him do these things. Most people don't understand and don't have the patience. I would HATE for him to be in a daycare setting with people who don't love him. I can't imagine anything worse for him. There will be lots of people volunteering to help with the babies but I will make sure that Max's needs are met. And I will love him when others won't!


I know how much you love him! He and his parents are so lucky to have you in his life. Once the babies are born it will be important that there is someone to let him know how very important he is. Hang in there. I applaud you. Just try to get enough rest as it is important for both of you. Other things like housework and other things get into perspective when a little one needs you. I wish I could help.

Thoughts and Prayers are with you for Max and You too.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Well good on you Designer and I hope 'the deal' holds true.


Thankyou.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I have tears in my eyes. You are the best kind of Grandma for a child to have.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, Tamarque!
> Now dil thinks she won't need help everyday for a while yet. So it looks like I'll just being going over a couple times a week for now. They don't want to burn me out. At 20 weeks she will be on complete bed rest. There really isn't anyone else who will watch Max for very long. No one else has the patience. His other Grandma can't stand it when he turns the lights on and off (for hours) and opens and closes doors. Or when he has meltdowns where he throws his head on the floor. I think Max has a mild case of Autism. I've done a lot of research, and I'm sure. His parents know that something is wrong. Their pediatrician says he's fine. They've also gone to a child psychologist, who thinks they aren't doing things right. But I KNOW that there's something wrong with Max. Last week, his mother actually said, "I wonder if he has Autism". That will be the first step. They need to find different doctors. I know personally, how difficult it is to make yourself know that something is wrong with your child, when the pediatrician tells you everything is fine. I lived it with my first son, before he was diagnosed with Cerebral Palsy. For 11 months, the pediatrician told me there was nothing wrong. Once I got the courage to move on, we moved forward in meeting his needs.
> 
> I'm very good with Max because I've read a lot and I've worked with kids like him before. The key is calm and patience. I make sure to make eye contact when giving him instructions. Eye contact is difficult for him but I hold his face until he looks at me. Then he gets it. I speak in a calm voice. During playtime, I do what he wants to do. I don't care if every light in the house has to be on. I don't care if cupboard doors have to be open or room doors have to be closed. It's important to him and doesn't matter to me. Others can't stand it, it drives them crazy. He's not a bad boy and doesn't do bad things. He just has a major meltdown if people don't let him do these things. Most people don't understand and don't have the patience. I would HATE for him to be in a daycare setting with people who don't love him. I can't imagine anything worse for him. There will be lots of people volunteering to help with the babies but I will make sure that Max's needs are met. And I will love him when others won't!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

[quote lovethelake:
"I never said she posted pictures that were offensive, I said she acted like a lemming and encouraged and approved of the postings that she knew would hurt others.
*Never once did she (or any other AOLW) tell 'their group' to stop posting things that were knowing hurting people who were caught in the vicious crossfire to get at a few* Many innocent ladies were hurt by postings that they had no idea why someone would do that to their thread. So for Designer to come to D & P to wish people a Merry Christmas without apologizing or accepting responsibility for the pain she and others caused was hollow and just plain rude. She and other AOLW may believe that saying Merry Christmas to the women (and gentleman) on D&P will make things better is just insane thinking. One can forgive, but forgiveness does not mean that a person(s) forgets the pain and should not. To forget is to open one's self to be a target again, which is just stupid. If one really understands the story of Jesus and turning the other cheek, one would realize that it is a form of passive resistance because when one turns the other cheek that way it is almost impossible for a right-handed person to strike that cheek. So one is dared to strike back, but they know that it won't be affective. Interesting." [end quote]
---------------------------------------------------
Note:
*This is interesting because I received pm's after wishing the D& P group 'Merry Christmas' saying that they knew I meant it. But none had the courage to stand up and say it publicly so who is afraid to stand up and be counted*? *So it is better to accept a lie from a fellow dp member, than be willing to say something decent and true so that others will know you don't agree with the lie. That is what hurt me the most*.

One informed me that 'You have to understand, the group were hurt - even though that person also acknowledged that I was not involved with the visit to the thread-

Before I am jumped on this. One of the members who has been named previously pm'd me 3 times that night to say how one of my friends who had defended me and who others knew was my friend,was being picked on and I should go and do something. I went there and I believe I posted two lines at the most and left.

As a result I have absolute belief that the truth will never be acknowledged, especially with LTL doing her best to make sure that no one there knows the truth - the others are not very brave - but because no one DARES go against the group - lies are told and those who know they are lies do not stand up and be counted.

That is all I wish to clear up - Now I have finally answered and that is it. If LTL brings it up again, I will answer. I am just thankful that I am allowed to defend what I know is right, rather than feel I have to keep quiet even though I know the attacks are false. This group speaks our truth -- I have stood against my friends' opinions often and never once have I been made to feel I overstepped. They back me when they know lies are told. I have stood up for D and P members but that has never been acknowledged. I am glad I am a Liberal if being a 'true believer' means you allow lies and keep quiet out of either fear or being afraid you will be chastised if you go against the others in any way. I have never seen anyone acknowledge except Yarnie - publicly that they have at least regretted some of the nastiness.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> [quote lovethelake:
> "I never said she posted pictures that were offensive, I said she acted like a lemming and encouraged and approved of the postings that she knew would hurt others.
> *Never once did she (or any other AOLW) tell 'their group' to stop posting things that were knowing hurting people who were caught in the vicious crossfire to get at a few* Many innocent ladies were hurt by postings that they had no idea why someone would do that to their thread. So for Designer to come to D & P to wish people a Merry Christmas without apologizing or accepting responsibility for the pain she and others caused was hollow and just plain rude. She and other AOLW may believe that saying Merry Christmas to the women (and gentleman) on D&P will make things better is just insane thinking. One can forgive, but forgiveness does not mean that a person(s) forgets the pain and should not. To forget is to open one's self to be a target again, which is just stupid. If one really understands the story of Jesus and turning the other cheek, one would realize that it is a form of passive resistance because when one turns the other cheek that way it is almost impossible for a right-handed person to strike that cheek. So one is dared to strike back, but they know that it won't be affective. Interesting." [end quote]
> 
> ...


*

Designer, LTLs post makes no sense, as usual. She's just trying to wiggle out of the corner she painted herself into. She denied saying things that were easy to prove and she was called out for blaming you for something you didn't do. Now she has to find some excuse to save face.

Admits you never posted pictures, but blames you for not stopping what others were doing. Seriously?*


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

///


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I know how much you love him! He and his parents are so lucky to have you in his life. Once the babies are born it will be important that there is someone to let him know how very important he is. Hang in there. I applaud you. Just try to get enough rest as it is important for both of you. Other things like housework and other things get into perspective when a little one needs you. I wish I could help.
> 
> Thoughts and Prayers are with you for Max and You too.


Thanks, Shirley!
I'm doing a lot of research into things that might help, such as gluten free diets and dietary enzymes. I hope I'll be able to help him et better. He's such a sweetie!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Note:
> *This is interesting because I received pm's after wishing the D& P group 'Merry Christmas' saying that they knew I meant it. But none had the courage to stand up and say it publicly so who is afraid to stand up and be counted*? *So it is better to accept a lie from a fellow dp member, than be willing to say something decent and true so that others will know you don't agree with the lie. That is what hurt me the most*.
> 
> One informed me that 'You have to understand, the group were hurt - even though that person also acknowledged that I was not involved with the visit to the thread-
> ...


I am fascinated by the way these great friends who love each other so much are terrified of deviating from the standard line. Why do they put up with it? Are the recipes so good that they don't want to lose them?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Max isn't real fond of coloring but he likes to "write" with a pen. I've several coloring books but he's not interested. He like other crafty projects though. His favorite (which we've done over and over) is when I cut a peice of blue construction paper in the shape of a fish bowl and spread glue across the bottom. He sprinkles fine craft sand onto the glue, then we glue tiny shells to the bottom and stick fish stickers all over the page. He also like glitter pens and painting of any kind. He won't sit still for reading except at bedtime but loves singing and anything musical (like his daddy). He loves to play his daddy's keyboard but doesn't want anyone to show him how to play. I taught him "chopsticks", which amazed his parents because he never let's anyone sit and play with him, just me.


Is that why it's nice to be a grandmother - you can give a kid all the attention he needs and think up new activities, while his parents have to split their attention? It sounds as though he responds to the way you love him and show it. He's going to need a lot of that when the quads come.

And your dil will need it, too. Best of luck to all of you.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

damemary said:


> I love trains too. There is an old hotel designed by Mary Coulter, a very famous architect that is refurbished and reopened called La Posada. It's right on the Burlington Northern RR, Winslow AZ. (Sitting on a corner in Winslow Arizona, What a fine site to see. Eagles) You can eat and watch trains. Park benches line the station. And they're always full. People from babies to older folks. I'll go back anytime.


One of my fantasies is to travel on every train route that still exists in this country with a roomette to relax and sleep in. They may be small, but sleeping accommodations on a train is my idea of luxury. So far, the routes I've been on had great shower rooms.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I have tears in my eyes. You are the best kind of Grandma for a child to have.


Thanks, dame! I think that my knowledge and experience make me the best kind of grandma for Max. Throughout my many years of volunteering in the schools, I was drawn to the kids who didn't fit in. Many were like Max, others had suffered from physical or sexual abuse. I recognize that all kids need love, especially the unlovable ones.

My dil's family don't want to watch Max because they can't control him. They think he's being naughty when he turns the lights on and off or opens and closes doors. I say, who cares? He's not hurting anything or anyone. They won't sit down and engage him in the things he likes to do. I let him run his fingers through my buttons and let him use my dpns as drumsticks on the tin. Who cares if the tin gets dented? What difference does it make? No one else will let him explore in these ways. I teach him what things he can beat on and what he can't. He likes to get in my buffet cupboard to get battery operated candles. He's fascinated by them. There are many fragile things in there, so I taught him to ask me to get them for him instead of getting in there. That's all he wanted, so now when he wants it, he asks and I get it. So what, if the batteries wear out. They cost nearly nothing. Others won't let him touch things. I teach him to touch them carefully.

Last week Max said, "I love you Grandma". That's the first time he's ever said that. And in fact, he's only ever said I love you, to his Mommy. That makes me feel better than anything. He's an awesome kid! He's so incredibly smart and curious. I don't want anyone to squash that, just because he's different.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

damemary said:


> I can't wait to hear the tales. Go for the river cruise.


I keep getting pamphlets from Viking River Cruises. I want to hop on one right this minute. They sound wonderful, and I correct my point of view by downgrading all descriptions. That way, if I got to go on one I wouldn't be disappointed and might even be pleasantly surprised.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Is that why it's nice to be a grandmother - you can give a kid all the attention he needs and think up new activities, while his parents have to split their attention? It sounds as though he responds to the way you love him and show it. He's going to need a lot of that when the quads come.
> 
> And your dil will need it, too. Best of luck to all of you.


Thanks, Purl! We'll all do the best we can.


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