# downloaded pdf paid for patterns



## greatgrannytidy (Mar 10, 2013)

I found a web site where I can pay for and then download patterns. these are not the sites own patterns but sirdar, wendy, peter pan etc. so they can ¨sell¨ the pattern many times over. is this legal on copyright? am I doing the designer an injustice buying from them? just thought I´d ask before committing to buy.


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## tintin63 (Apr 18, 2011)

Ebay is full of people selling copies of patterns and they are getting away with it but I thought it was wrong too. British laws are different to US but the way I see it if it's a copy of a pattern then it's wrong.


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## EllenCrafts (Apr 17, 2012)

That's the way we see it over here too


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## greatgrannytidy (Mar 10, 2013)

thank you for your quick reply. I won´t give them my time or money if it´s wrong. will just have to keep looking for what I need.


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## Bernadettebunty (Nov 3, 2012)

Not sure about USA laws but the UK copyright laws prevent copies of purchased patterns being sold. I belong to a knit and natter group and we 'share' patterns - when one is finished with a pattern we pass it on to another member who wants to knit the same garment. We were told by the library manager - we meed in the local library - that we wouldn't be able to use their photo-copier to make any copies as it is illegal to do so. - Hope this helps


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## Bernadettebunty (Nov 3, 2012)

I am currently knitting from a purchased Sirdar pattern and on the back in the small print on the bottom there is a "WARNING" Reproduction of this publication is protected by copyright. It is sold on condition that is is used for non-commercial purposes. All other rights reserved by Sirdar Spinning Ltd. From what I can gather from UK law I cannot sell copies of the pattern although I could sell the finished garment.


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## Raybo (Mar 12, 2011)

tintin63 said:


> Ebay is full of people selling copies of patterns and they are getting away with it but I thought it was wrong too. British laws are different to US but the way I see it if it's a copy of a pattern then it's wrong.


E-Bay thinks it's wrong too. If it's reported to them they'll take some action to stop the it. I know this because I once bought an appliance owner's manual there which had been photocopied from an original. I didn't report it but somebody did and I received a notice from E-bay that this vendor had been discontinued from E-bay. But of course they can't watch everybody who lists something on there, so I guess they just wait for somebody to report it. :XD:


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## greatgrannytidy (Mar 10, 2013)

http://www.knitpat.com/ 
this is from the site
'KnitPat' is an online trading name of: Shaws (Cardiff) Ltd [Registered in England & Wales: 00495388]

Copyright

The website design, content, software and source code used on the site are the copyright of KnitPat or others as indicated. The pattern leaflets are to be used for non-commercial purposes. All rights are reserved.

if it is illegal how do they get away with it?


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## Raybo (Mar 12, 2011)

greatgrannytidy said:


> if it is illegal how do they get away with it?


 Because any law is only as good as its enforcement. If nobody goes after them, they just keep on keeping on, because they can and it's profitable for them. :thumbdown:


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## kiwiannie (Jul 30, 2011)

I don't know how you get away doing that. :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

Notify the yarn companies involved. If they do nothing, you've done the right thing.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

I buy a lot of patterns from many different designers from patternfish.com -- they are legit.


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## BoogieCat (Nov 3, 2012)

I think that the designers either have sold their pattern or get a % of the sale price from these sites. Kind of like the designs in magazines, of which many thousands of copies are made.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Lori, Don't be too quick to make that assumption though. Some of the patterns are from a yarn company.

I design and sell patterns, I have sold a few to yarn companies. When that happens the pattern becomes THEIRS and my name only appears if I have negotiated such.

The "pattern industry" is rife with copyright abuses.

I only sell hard copy patterns because it's simply too easy for someone to print multiple copies from a download and pass them around like free candy.

My patterns are printed on "copy proof" paper. If you try putting one on a copy machine or scanner to make a copy - you get back a black page!

A woman who purchased one of my patterns in a yarn shop emailed me. She said she had spilled coffee on the pages and requested that I send her the pattern in an email. I was "leery" and told that I don't do business that way and responded "if you send me the coffee stained pattern I will send you a new copy"...never heard from her again. I suspect she had tried to copy the original and found out it was impossible. People can be very "sly" when they are trying to steal something that doesn't belong to them.


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## BoogieCat (Nov 3, 2012)

Courier - good to know! This is disturbing to me, and I am not a designer. I think I will stick with Ravelry designers & skip the yarn company ones. Oh yes, and KnitPicks independent designer patterns. Thanks for the valuable information.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Yarn companies sometimes employ "in house" designers and sometimes they will purchase the rights to a pattern from an "outside" designer.

Where the copyright abuses come in, are on sites such as ebay, where people are selling copies of patterns they have no right to. Other abuses are committed by people who think that once they have purchased a single copy of a pattern, they are free to copy it and pass it along to everyone and their third cousin. This denies designers income from sales. Worse yet are those who "borrow" a book from a library and copy multiple patterns, multiples times and pass those around also.

People think that designers are "THEM", people with deep pockets who won't notice a missed sale here and there. If I took $3.00 out of someone's purse while standing at the check out line, I'd be arrested wouldn't I?

A portion of my income is derived from pattern sales. I use that money to pay for my glaucoma medications every month. So no, not all designers are rolling in dough. Nor are most writers and other people involved in careers where copyright is foundational. You only hear of large settlements in the cases of popular or famous songwriters/singers. 

Remember Whitney Houston's huge hit "I will always love you"? That song was written and copyrighted by Dolly Parton and she maintained her copyright on it..Whitney Houston made more money for Dolly Parton on that song than she did for herself! Dolly merely "lent" it to her for a price.


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## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

greatgrannytidy said:


> I found a web site where I can pay for and then download patterns. these are not the sites own patterns but sirdar, wendy, peter pan etc. so they can ¨sell¨ the pattern many times over. is this legal on copyright? am I doing the designer an injustice buying from them? just thought I´d ask before committing to buy.


Your title mentioned PDF patterns
I did once buy a vintage pattern from someone who converts old patterns to PDF form and sells them. 
She goes to the trouble of enhancing some of those not very clear pictures, making the print larger and clearer, and also adds some modern terms for pattern instructions. I was happy to buy from her.

As for the scanned copies, most would be freely available somewhere on the Internet and out of copyright. I don't know why people would purchase these.
If they are still in copyright, then I would think the seller could get in to trouble for doing this.


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## greatgrannytidy (Mar 10, 2013)

oh dear I feel I´ve opened a can of worms here. I was only trying to do the right thing!
I have often designed my own patterns and have always shared them, but I do understand how some people have to make a living.


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## tryalot (Apr 29, 2012)

greatgrannytidy said:


> oh dear I feel I´ve opened a can of worms here. I was only trying to do the right thing!


You have done the right thing, those selling patterns that don't belong to them ought not be allowed to do so.
Probably many of us wouldn't have given a thought to designers, their income and their rights if we hadn't read it here.

The only point I was attempting to make is, I didn't mind paying for my pattern as the seller had put work and thought into it. She hadn't, like the many you mentioned, just scanned something for download.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

US Copyright was rewritten in the late 70's. Some vintage patterns have fallen off copyright but remember copyright is for the life of the copyright holder PLUS 75 years! 

Though I doubt anyone is going to complain about patterns from past centuries.

What I would love to get my hands on are some old advertising posters from yarn mills of bygone eras. Wouldn't they make the perfect wall decor for one's craft room? I've never come across any though. I remember seeing them along the wall of Woolworth's though..many years ago!


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

If you are a designer, please be aware that there is no such thing as paper that only shows up black if you copy it. Copy-proof paper will show words such as "copy" or "void" on the copy if you try to duplicate the original document printed on it, but as of yet there is no paper that will copy black.
http://www.highsecuritypaper.com/Securitytechnologies.html will give you the information on the types of security paper available.
In Healthcare it was always important that our prescriptions and such be printed on the most secure paper available to prevent unlawful duplication, so it was important for me to be up to date on the available technology. 
Just thought you'd like to know.


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## ddyfrom (Dec 3, 2012)

"Shaws the Drapers" is a reputable company here in Wales with shops throughout the area selling household goods such as bedding, curtains etc., wool and patterns. It is a family business and I would have thought that they would have looked into the laws covering the sale of these patterns.
One way to find out would be to e-mail them with any concerns - their e-mail address is on the site.
The next time I visit one of their shops I'll try to remember to ask the question.


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## wannabegranny (May 27, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Lori, Don't be too quick to make that assumption though. Some of the patterns are from a yarn company.
> 
> I design and sell patterns, I have sold a few to yarn companies. When that happens the pattern becomes THEIRS and my name only appears if I have negotiated such.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info Courier770 - just did a google and found what you were talking about - Neat stuff. Here is a link for those that are curious

http://www.protectedpaper.com/product_p/obxuc.htm


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## E Christina Dabis (Mar 31, 2013)

Raybo said:


> E-Bay thinks it's wrong too. If it's reported to them they'll take some action to stop the it. I know this because I once bought an appliance owner's manual there which had been photocopied from an original. I didn't report it but somebody did and I received a notice from E-bay that this vendor had been discontinued from E-bay. But of course they can't watch everybody who lists something on there, so I guess they just wait for somebody to report it. :XD:


Great topic! Thanks for bringing it up, and all of the discussion has been informative, too.

I have purchased patterns on Ebay and I received the actual pages where the pattern was printed in a magazine. I suspect it is not a violation of copyright, just as selling a whole used magazine wouldn't be a violation.

Think of it as buying a used book.

There is room for debate, that's for sure.

I do buy patterns and I also mention them in my Trust. Why? They have VALUE just like a coin collection. Some of the out-of-print patterns are selling in the hundreds of dollar range. When I find a 'sell' price, I print it out and put it inside of that particular book (or booklet) so family knows about it.


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## redland81 (Nov 25, 2012)

I live in South Wales and regularly go into Shaws as their wool is a good price. They sell lots of Mariners wool etc. they sell patterns for £1.95 and pattern books for £3.50but they rarely have many in stock. So are they doing anything wrong if the prices ae the same as buying a "real" pattern? Jae


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## redland81 (Nov 25, 2012)

It says on their "contact us" part of their site that you can contact them with any queries. To me that says that it is legit as they give their name and address so they are not trying to hide anything.jane


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## triana (May 2, 2012)

Oh please don't feel that way. I've learned a lot from this thread. Thank you for raising it. 


greatgrannytidy said:


> oh dear I feel I´ve opened a can of worms here. I was only trying to do the right thing!
> I have often designed my own patterns and have always shared them, but I do understand how some people have to make a living.


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## Bernadettebunty (Nov 3, 2012)

There seems to be some confusion regarding "the copyright". In this case it is illegal for me or anyone else to purchase a paper pattern and to scan copy or photo-copy the same either for sale or to pass around to other folks for free!! In other words I have no "right to copy"!! I have a pattern book published in 1940s which may or may not still be in copyright - I cannot scan or photo-copy any of these patterns legally, However, I can, because the patterns are knitted in 2, 3 or 4 ply (English ply measurements) which are very fine, work out the tension, re-work the garments in a different ply yarn and sell the pattern. If I use the original photograph from the book my version must give written credit for where the photograph is from.


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## Bernadettebunty (Nov 3, 2012)

Another point mentioned is the resale of original patterns - I or anyone can buy original paper patterns either single garments or booklets or bound books and irrespective of the price that I paid for them I can then resell them at any price that I choose, similarly any business can buy patterns and sell them for less than the printed price. I can donate them to a charity shop for free and they can charge what they think is a fair price or sell them at £100 each there is no law governing this (although no-one would pay this much for a pattern)! Many years ago (before I was into knitting alas) I went to an auction and there to purchase were bundles of yarn and patterns/books etc from a yarn shop that had closed down - they went for pennies!


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## cydneyjo (Aug 5, 2011)

I thought that you couldn't even sell the finished product from a copyrighted pattern.


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## Goldengate (Jan 30, 2013)

One effort that annoyed me was a woman, selling individual patterns on eBay, who had an old pattern book that she said was out of copyright, but she had made some minor change and claimed a new copyright for herself!! So if you were dumb enough to purchase it from her, you were beholden! I would rather search out the original pattern book!


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## joannem602 (Feb 7, 2011)

Bernadettebunty said:


> Not sure about USA laws but the UK copyright laws prevent copies of purchased patterns being sold. I belong to a knit and natter group and we 'share' patterns - when one is finished with a pattern we pass it on to another member who wants to knit the same garment. We were told by the library manager - we meed in the local library - that we wouldn't be able to use their photo-copier to make any copies as it is illegal to do so. - Hope this helps


Interesting... We meet once a month at a Panera, and it's sometimes challenging to get enough seats together. A couple of times I have mentioned that we should meet in a library, then we would have access to a copy machine. (and removal from all the pastries at Panera...) I guess my idea needs more research.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

Bernadettebunty said:


> I am currently knitting from a purchased Sirdar pattern and on the back in the small print on the bottom there is a "WARNING" Reproduction of this publication is protected by copyright. It is sold on condition that is is used for non-commercial purposes. All other rights reserved by Sirdar Spinning Ltd. From what I can gather from UK law I cannot sell copies of the pattern although I could sell the finished garment.


Actually that sentence "It is sold on condition that is is used for non-commercial purposes." means that you should not sell the finished garment either.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

There are several companies that produce copy proof paper. Some blacks out whatever is on the original, when copied, some "over prints" on what is on the original with characters that makes the copy illegible. Granted the whole page does not truly come out black but it does produce a copied document, that cannot be used.

Regarding the sale of items crafted from copyrighted material. Copyright law, automatically, protects the owner of the intelligent property from having their work used for the financial gain of another. When you think about this in the music industry it's more palatable. You can sing Garth Brook's songs all day long but you can't record them and sell them. You can even sing those songs at your cousins wedding..you just can't record them and sell them. Does that make it a little more understandable? 

Some designers will grant permission for their patterns to be used to craft items that can be sold, though most will not. The words "not for retail use" means exactly that. Even ONE sale is "retail use", it doesn't have to be dozens, hundreds or thousands. 

You can sell the patterns or books you have purchased after you are finished using them but you may not duplicate and distribute them. The same holds true for novels, sheet music and other works that are copyrighted.

There is great misunderstanding regarding copyright, by the general public. You cannot make a few small changes and claim the new work as your own design. Again lets go to anther genre to see this clearer. You can't change 200 words in a Stephen King novel and claim the "new story" is your own. You can't change a few words in a copyrighted song and claim it as your own creation.

Copyright law is not up to interpretation, it's very clear and it's very concise.

Please remember that copyrighted works are how some people make their living. Copyright laws are intended to protect those individuals and their livelihoods. 

Yes it is a "can of worms" and once you open the lid there's no putting all those worms back in. The best you can try to do, is gather them all up. Sometimes it's a messy job but it can also be done neatly.


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## jmai5421 (May 6, 2011)

I like to copy patterns that I have so that I can write on them. I just did that for the ASJ jacket by Eliz. Zimmerman. I have made the jacket, added changes that I made to the orginal or on a piece of paper put the orginal and my notes in a sleeve for the next jacket. The very much written on copy went in the trash. I do this to keep the orginal pattern nice to be used again.
I usually don't buy patterns that I can't do this to. I have a Norwegian company that prints on red paper. You can't see the print on a copy. I don't buy from them anymore. I don't intend to sell the copy, share the copy, but just want to keep mie neat for future use.


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## pmarch (Mar 18, 2012)

Knit Picks designers don't just design for knit picks. They are on Ravelry under their there own names. Unless these designers have exclusive contracts, they sell their patterns to get their name out there and hopefully a big company discovers them. I have a book right now where the author has her work in several places, including Knit Picks.


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## Lehtomaki (Oct 18, 2012)

On the other hand, I always make a copy of the pattern i am working on so I can write on it and cross things off etc. and leave my original "clean" in case I want to use it again. Would not buy a pattern I cannot duplicate to use in this way.


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## pzoe (Mar 17, 2011)

Ebay is a different beast. Often times designers sell the rights to "share" their patterns, allowing yarn sites to share their patterns. Our LYS gives copies of patterns with yarn purchases. When in doubt, ask. If they are breaching copyright law this at least puts they on alert that we notice these things.

PZOE

Pzoe


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## Englishknitter (Oct 13, 2012)

I purchased a pattern for an Aran cardigan from e bay and it was a photocopy from a book as it had page numbers at the bottom and they did not start at 1. I notice on ebay there are loads of people selling really old copies of patterns which are out of print and I imagine most of the yarn companies which owned the copyright will have gone out of business. Unless you really, really want a copy of a pattern then you ought to really buy new patterns to keep those companies still writing patterns in business.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Lehtomaki, the "working copy" that you make is perfectly legal under copyright law.

Violation involves duplication and distribution/sale.

Englishknitter, when it comes to copyright, make no assumptions. If a yarn company has gone out of business it is likely they have sold off all assets to another and that includes the "intelligent property" (copyrighted materials). Even a company that is out of business is still protected under copyright law. Remember that copyright exceeds the life of the holder by a great many years.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

Lehtomaki said:


> On the other hand, I always make a copy of the pattern i am working on so I can write on it and cross things off etc. and leave my original "clean" in case I want to use it again. Would not buy a pattern I cannot duplicate to use in this way.


Copyright laws are not about us making that copy for marking while we work...it is to protect the designer from us making the copy to sell to someone else...or give to someone else.


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## jmai5421 (May 6, 2011)

Lehtomaki said:


> On the other hand, I always make a copy of the pattern i am working on so I can write on it and cross things off etc. and leave my original "clean" in case I want to use it again. Would not buy a pattern I cannot duplicate to use in this way.


Ditto.


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## joyce1946 (Apr 27, 2011)

I agree!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

See what I mean about misconceptions and copyright law?


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## jmai5421 (May 6, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Lehtomaki, the "working copy" that you make is perfectly legal under copyright law.
> 
> Violation involves duplication and distribution/sale.
> 
> Englishknitter, when it comes to copyright, make no assumptions. If a yarn company has gone out of business it is likely they have sold off all assets to another and that includes the "intelligent property" (copyrighted materials). Even a company that is out of business is still protected under copyright law. Remember that copyright exceeds the life of the holder by a great many years.


You can't make a working copy if you try to copy and the page turns up black or just won't copy. I don't make that mistake more than once. Now I ask if I can do that before I buy. If not I won't buy.


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## Jenny.Wren (Nov 28, 2011)

Great info. I learn something every day from this site.
Something I have never heard of is copy proof paper. Is it available at office supply stores?


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## Kbg351 (Jul 20, 2011)

Berococo, patonns,tahkistacycharles..
All have free pattern sections on their websites..


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## Lehtomaki (Oct 18, 2012)

I was referring to the responder who said if you tried to copy her patterns they come out black.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Lehtomaki, I've already responded that there are differing types of copy proof paper. The brand that I use blacks out what is on the original when the copy is produced. Some produce a copy that has characters over printed on what appears on the original. It all depends on how much you want to spend for the paper. The end result is pretty much the same, you end up with a copy that is not useable.

You can order this type of paper from some office supply stores but I prefer the higher quality variety. I've never found it available in any store and I have to get it from the manufacturer.


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## Lehtomaki (Oct 18, 2012)

Still, if I buy your pattern, I cannot make a copy for my own use.


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## Goldengate (Jan 30, 2013)

It could get really sticky, if it were interpreted that copying included even making an item. Discouraging, to say he least. I think I will avoid purchasing any patterns! Copyrights do run out, though.
That reminds me, I've seen copyrighted recipes. Be afraid to serve and eat them! Glad I can manage cooking without them.


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## JeanBlain (Mar 21, 2013)

It's wrong in the US, too!


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

Thanks for the food for thought, Courier!

I've been selling printed patterns, and had been planning to switch to PDFs, but might want to rethink this.

I had one person email me, saying they'd bought one of my patterns a year before, but couldn't find the file on their computer, so I must not have sent it to them, and they wanted me to send another copy. The pattern didn't even exist as a PDF, and I told them so. I don't know if they were just confused or what.

Thanks.


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## Jan J (Oct 12, 2011)

I have purchased and downloaded a few from Annie's and E-Patterns Central. Should I not continue?


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

That is correct you cannot make a copy of one of my patterns. It is because of dishonest people that many designers have been driven to this extreme. Every single one of my patterns come in a plastic sleeve that can be written on with a dry erase marker and I encourage people to do that to keep the original in pristine condition. 

It's a shame that some have taken this subject so far afield from the intention of copyright law. The intention of the law is NOT to infringe on other people but to protect the intelligent property of another.

When you take the intelligent property of another, for financial gain, you are harming another. I know it's difficult to see how, unless you are on the other side of the fence.

Even free patterns are covered by copyright.

One always has the option of creating their own patterns to use for commercial/retail purposes, or for distribution. 

"Personal use" means you can use the pattern(s) to craft the item(s) to be used by yourself, family members, gifts and even donations to charity. 

I find the comparison to recipes a little convoluted. Why would you think that you could not serve a dish, from a copyrighted recipe, to guests? That's personal use. Now if you opened a business selling pies that were baked from a copyrighted recipe, that would be different.


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## LilgirlCA (Jan 22, 2011)

Bernadettebunty said:


> Not sure about USA laws but the UK copyright laws prevent copies of purchased patterns being sold. I belong to a knit and natter group and we 'share' patterns - when one is finished with a pattern we pass it on to another member who wants to knit the same garment. We were told by the library manager - we meed in the local library - that we wouldn't be able to use their photo-copier to make any copies as it is illegal to do so. - Hope this helps


US copyright law is the same - you cannot make copies of patterns and sell them or even give them away.

BTW - the etsy shops selling copies of patterns may be in violation or may have permission from the author. Either way, etsy management will not intervene. They rely on the potential purchaser to tell the author of the violation.

it would be nice if you sent emails to the companies and/or authors whose patterns are being copied letting them know of the potential violation - the seller may have permission to sell them


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## dialfred (Nov 21, 2011)

Would it be ok to hand write a copy for someone? Where does "fair use" really end?


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## easycreations (Aug 27, 2012)

I am a designer and am very interested in obtaining "copy proof" paper. I looked online, but didn't find anything close to where I live. Can you tell me where you purchase your paper? Does only the "copy" turn black or does the original also turn black from the light shining on it from the maching?? 

Thanks for your help
Marcia


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## Goldengate (Jan 30, 2013)

I would like to enlarge the print so I can follow the instructions more easily.
No one else would even see it.


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## Terrie327 (Apr 15, 2013)

The legality of this type of transaction depends upon wether or not the original author/company gives permission and gains their royalty as patterns are sold. If the owner of the site requests permission and pays the designer then there is no problem. If they are simply "selling copied patterns" without paying acording to a legal contract with the owner/designer/company in question, it is absolutly a violation of copywrite as well as public trust.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

dialfred, no it is NOT OK if someone gives you a copy. That is duplication and distribution even if money does not change hands.

There are various types of copy proof paper available (please see my earlier comments on this). Only the COPY is affected. You simply cannot make a useable copy.

I'm not going to divulge my source. I will tell you this, I did NOT find them on the internet. My attorney referred me to the company.


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## Redhatchris (Apr 21, 2012)

greatgrannytidy said:


> I found a web site where I can pay for and then download patterns. these are not the sites own patterns but sirdar, wendy, peter pan etc. so they can ¨sell¨ the pattern many times over. is this legal on copyright? am I doing the designer an injustice buying from them? just thought I´d ask before committing to buy.


WHY DON'T YOU JUST EMAIL THAT SITE AND ASK WHAT AUTHORITY THEY HAVE TO SELL THE PATTERN?...


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Some designers (not all but some) will regularly do an internet search of their patterns and the name that they design under. This will show them if their pattern designs are being distributed or sold without their permission.

Yes designers do authorize sales of their patterns by others and under certain conditions will allow use of their patterns by others for commercial purposes. When in doubt, simply ask. 

What alerted me to how rife pattern piracy is, was an experience I had with a knitting group. A bunch of harmless gals who got together once a week to knit. There were about 20 members and one had purchased a download pattern from a fairly well known designer. She then copied the pattern and passed the copies out, to everyone. Seems harmless right? Not really, if each person who got a copy made a few more copies and passed those around..and so on and so on, the designer would very quickly loose a few hundred download sales.

Each copy might only represent a few dollars but would you like it if person after person came along and took a few dollars out of your purse/wallet?


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## Palenque1978 (Feb 16, 2011)

Good for you, Courier. Sounds like you had a "sly" one on your hand. 

Whenever, I buy a pattern from a designer or company... their patterns usually indicate if one can share the pattern or not; some indicate that the knitted item cannot be intended for resale, unless given permission. Most state that the pattern is for personal use only. I've had designers say it's okay, if I make a copy and give it (gift it) to a pal... other's say NO! However, the gifted pattern has to be personally given or sent via US mails... no electronic "gifting". Makes sense to me. 

I respect designer's or a company's wishes; I don't ever get into trouble regarding copywrites, etc. 

Last year, I had a kitchen fire. I have my "office" in the kitchen area... so, I lost many items along with my file holder which included knitting patterns and my computer was damaged (no hard copies, no saved electronic ones either). Once things were back to normal, and was back knitting and collecting patterns via the net... I remembered two purchased patterns that I dearly missed and didn't want to have to buy again. I emailed both designers and explained what had happened. Both venders were not only sympathetic about the fire, they immediately emailed me a links for the pattern; one told me that she had no problem finding the file on my purchase.


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## AnneDi Napoli (Apr 11, 2013)

The only time I think it may be okay is when the pattern is out of print and no longer available.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

You may only make a copy of copyrighted material and "gift" it to someone with the permission of THAT copyright holder. Copyright law prohibits "duplication and distribution", of any ilk.

AnneDi Napoli, that isn't exactly true. Copyright extends far beyond the life of the copyright holder. "Out of print" is a relative term. You still can't photocopy and distribute "out of print", copyrighted material.

Please read up on copyright law, it's not up to interpretation.


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## joycevv (Oct 13, 2011)

Maybe you should send this website to the true owners of the copyrights so they know about it.
I just purchased a pattern from Ravelry last night, and noticed that the designer had forgotten to say what size needles. I wrote to her and there was an answer in my box this morning and a note that she would have the pattern modified on the site. That was reassuring, and I can't wait to make the pattern.
Can you believe, Ravelry now has 3,000,000 users!!? And it is definitely a reputable place to get many free patterns and buy from the actual designers.


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## Dowager (Jun 7, 2011)

ladams123 said:


> Courier - good to know! This is disturbing to me, and I am not a designer. I think I will stick with Ravelry designers & skip the yarn company ones. Oh yes, and KnitPicks independent designer patterns. Thanks for the valuable information.


Some of these companies have bought the patterns from the designers and have negotiated deals for selling them on the 'net. Putting them into a PDF file and allowing purchasers to download them is a matter of convenience, and savings on paper and shipping costs. If you have paid for the pdf file pattern, the the onus is on the company you purchased it from to insure thqt they have complied with copyright laws.


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## flginny (Feb 6, 2011)

Copyright laws can be very severely enforced if the wrong party has enough clout and wants to push it. 

When people were sharing machine embroidery designs, we were told that if you were caught you could lose anything you had the "stolen" design on: your computer, your embroidery machine, etc....

I don't know if all that is true, but I don't believe in sharing patterns without the designer's permission. There's a lot of work in designing and perfecting directions and charts. Why should designers work for us for nothing? If they stopped designing, what would we knit? Let's be grateful for the patterns they GIVE us for free and pay them for the rest that we like well enough to knit.

Virginia


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

It's really not about clout. It's just as wrong to steal from someone who has little or no clout. The "clout" afforded to all holders of copyrighted material is copyright law. The protection afforded under the law is equally afforded.

I find it interesting that the words "sharing" and "gifting" are often used when it comes to copyright infringement. Sort of reminds me of that old expression about being a little bit pregnant.

Try not to view copyright law as a stumbling block because that is not the intent.

Remember too, that this is how people make a living, support their families, pay their bills, etc.. Don't we have enough people who are unemployed, don't we have enough people living below the poverty level?


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## Bernadettebunty (Nov 3, 2012)

Thank you Courier770 for your full and instructive advice re copyright issues. I knew the basics but you have filled in a lot of gaps in my knowledge.  My avatar is knitted partly (the lady figure) from a book written by a local crafter / author known to other members of my Knit and Natter group. It was knit for an exhibition for the 2012 London Olympics. The horse was my own concoction from a free download pattern for a zebra adjusted to look like a horse. I have had several local offers to buy them but because of the copyright on the original pattern I have had to refuse all of these offers. I doubt I would have been caught but my conscience wouldn't allow me to do it. My basic feelings are if there is any doubt DON'T do it!


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## denisejh (May 20, 2011)

Granny T-It's possible that this website is a licensed dealer for these companies and is selling these patterns legally. If you go online to different yarn stores, you can purchase patterns from them legally, just as you can from sites such as Patternfish and Annie's Attic. If you have any doubts, contact the actual company (Sirdar, etc) and ask if this particular website is a licensed dealer of their patterns. If they are, you can use them with confidence. If they're not, you will have alerted the company that their patterns are being sold illegally and they can take action. I'm thinking they may be selling the downloads legally but you won't know for sure unless you inquire. Denise


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## jmstalice (Oct 30, 2011)

What happens to patterns when the person who bought them (legitimately) dies? Must they be destroyed? Is it illegal to pass them on to your children or other knitters? Books are copyrighted yet we see loads of them at yard sales and used book stores. I can understand not selling someone elses pattern but to say I can't share a pattern with a friend seems like an uncontrollable situation. Most of my patterns with the exception of a few books are free from Ravelry. After I am gone, I won't care what happens to them. Just saying....


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

jmstalice, Great Questions! Let me answer them one at a time. You may share the one copy of a pattern or book with a friend by lending them the original that you purchased. What you may not do is duplicate, by any method, and distribute.

My knitting library is open to friends for the purpose of borrowing but I make it very clear that they may not duplicate as I respect the copyright holder(s). As an aside, my late sister was furious when I wouldn't copy a pattern out of a book for her...I bought her a copy of the book! 

As for what happens when you pass on. Your heirs may choose to retain the originals for their own use or sell them at auction an estate sale, garage sale, etc..

I began to realize that my own collection of materials would probably "over whelm" my heirs so I've made provisions in my will for this. If no members of my family hold an interest in the items (books, patterns, tools, spinning wheels....the list is endless) then those items will go to the local fiber guild. The Guild is free to sell them for fundraising purposes or retain them for lending purposes. This makes things easier for my family.

Some of my patterns are copyrighted in my name only, some under my name and my grand daughters name and some in my name and the name of both of my grand children (the youngest is under 1 year of age). Will the patterns be of any monetary value in the future? Who knows! Right now my pattern sales cover the costs of my glaucoma medications and puts a few pennies aside for my grand children. I'm not retired yet.....


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## mzmom1 (Mar 4, 2011)

greatgrannytidy said:


> I found a web site where I can pay for and then download patterns. these are not the sites own patterns but sirdar, wendy, peter pan etc. so they can ¨sell¨ the pattern many times over. is this legal on copyright? am I doing the designer an injustice buying from them? just thought I´d ask before committing to buy.


Maybe they have an agreement with the design and pay royalties.


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## babysnapdragon (Nov 14, 2012)

I attempted to buy a pdf & paper copy from a vintage knitting patterns set up in the UK who not only did not send me what I had paid for but despite repeated requests both via email and ordinary postage have never to this day reimbursed me. I now avoid these crooks like the plague.
For the record they are Vintage Pattern Shop, 24a) Silver Street, Dursley GLOS UK


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## rkr (Aug 15, 2012)

Interesting dialog which concerns all of us! 
You're the voice-of-reason, Courier - THX!
The USPTO (US Patent & Trademark Office) used to call this the Garage Sale Effect; more recently the eBay® Effect - reselling and/or redistribution of original sheets/papers/pages of patterns. I hesitate to call these 'copies' of patterns as that's also what making the identical version of something is named and it can lead to confusion...

This occurred many times to me as I stood behind my trade show table and groups of collectors talked amongst themselves on the other side, agreeing to which patts each would purchase then share with each other. The problem I faced was -let them know how personally offensive this was, how much it cut into my pocketbook and the high cost of bring my items to the public at the Fine Art trade shows I attended, how illegal it was, etc - - or continue to smile and not lose the fewer sales these would represent?
This site addresses that:
http://www.craftdesigns4you.com/stop.htm

And to address how to handle disposing of the original piece of property and the rights of this first owner to making copies of it for sale or (gifting/redistribution) of it, but not limiting those of the Author/Developer of the original Intellectual Property Owner:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine
It's the more formal direction of what Courier wrote but less lengthy reading that what is on the US PTO site.

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html - 10 © myths
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copyright.html - brief intro to copyright
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html - a US PTO listing of topics


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

mzmom1, if they are selling photo copies or scanned copies you can bet your (fill in body part) that they do NOT have an agreement with the copyright holder.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

dialfred said:


> Would it be ok to hand write a copy for someone? Where does "fair use" really end?


The simple answer is NO. Intelligent property is still being infringed upon if you hand copy it. It is still illegal and punishable. Selling items made from patterns that have a copyright is also illegal. Most free patterns say that they are free for personal use...and not for items sold for capital gain. You certainly can knit a garment and give it away...but not sell it.

Jane


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

dialfred, duplication in ANY form is forbidden under copyright law. You cannot "rewrite" a copyrighted novel, in long hand and distribute it either...just in case you were wondering.


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## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

courier770 said:


> I find the comparison to recipes a little convoluted. Why would you think that you could not serve a dish, from a copyrighted recipe, to guests? That's personal use. Now if you opened a business selling pies that were baked from a copyrighted recipe, that would be different.


But cakes etc are regularly sold on trading tables and these will almost all have been baked from a recipe so what is the difference between this and selling things you have knitted on a trading table? Or sharing recipes here on KP when we don't share patterns?


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## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

flginny said:


> If they stopped designing, what would we knit?
> Virginia


Maybe we could get some of the patterns we have had in drawers for so long done! :-D :-D :-D


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Lori, Don't be too quick to make that assumption though. Some of the patterns are from a yarn company.
> 
> I design and sell patterns, I have sold a few to yarn companies. When that happens the pattern becomes THEIRS and my name only appears if I have negotiated such.
> 
> ...


That's an outstanding solution regarding the "spilled coffee pattern." It certainly pays to be a little more clever than the cheaters :~D!


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

ladams123 said:


> Courier - good to know! This is disturbing to me, and I am not a designer. I think I will stick with Ravelry designers & skip the yarn company ones. Oh yes, and KnitPicks independent designer patterns. Thanks for the valuable information.


I think the patterns you buy from companies have either been sold to the company or the company has purchased a license from the designer to distribute the patterns. If you have doubts in any given situation, I'd ask the seller to provide proof of their right to sell the pattern in question. You could also contact the designer and ask. I can't think of any other ways to be sure, but I'm with you. I would never knowingly rob designers of their livelihood.


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## Mum7 (Oct 11, 2011)

greatgrannytidy said:


> I found a web site where I can pay for and then download patterns. these are not the sites own patterns but sirdar, wendy, peter pan etc. so they can ¨sell¨ the pattern many times over. is this legal on copyright? am I doing the designer an injustice buying from them? just thought I´d ask before committing to buy.


There are loads of FREE patterns on Lyon Brand and Red Heart sites. Just Google them and enjoy.


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## jmstalice (Oct 30, 2011)

courier770 said:


> jmstalice, Great Questions! Let me answer them one at a time. You may share the one copy of a pattern or book with a friend by lending them the original that you purchased. What you may not do is duplicate, by any method, and distribute.
> 
> As for what happens when you pass on. Your heirs may choose to retain the originals for their own use or sell them at auction an estate sale, garage sale, etc..
> 
> Thank you courier770 for your reply. Why is it not copyright infringement to sell them at a garage sale or estate sale after I am gone but not while I'm still alive. I'm not trying to be difficult. I just find it a bit confusing. And, I agree, if someone wants a copy of a pattern, share the info where the pattern can be purchased or downloaded if it's free as many on Ravelry are. Thanks for the info.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Once again people are interjecting their "views" when copyright law is very clear.

As to recipes, if someone is using a copyrighted recipe for commercial gain, the copyright holder has redress. You may not like it, you don't have to agree with it but it is the law.

These "but what if" queries could go on and on for days, weeks, months and even years..the law is the law. 

If you don't "like" copyright law you are free to write your own songs, write your own patterns, write your own books or manuscripts, create your own recipes and copyright them.

The law says you cannot take the copyrighted material of another and claim it as your own, sell it, duplicate it, distribute it, or make a profit off of it.

There seems to be two trains of thought here...one is to obey the law and t he other is to challenge it.

You don't get to pick and choose which laws are worthy of obeying and which are not.

As knitters, we don't get a "pass" on copyright law. We are expected to obey the law as anyone else is. I don't understand why there is such contention about something that is so clearly spelled out.

There are designers who I truly admire, I wouldn't dream of taking a dime out of their pocket..but I wouldn't think of taking a dime out of a ditch diggers pocket either. It's all about "respect"...as I recall Aretha Franklin put out a pretty good song about that...a COPYRIGHTED song to boot!


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## SAMkewel (Mar 5, 2011)

lostarts said:


> Thanks for the food for thought, Courier!
> 
> I've been selling printed patterns, and had been planning to switch to PDFs, but might want to rethink this.
> 
> ...


This sounds more like an attempted scam to me, with the scammer hoping you had a PDF version available. I do enjoy buying patterns online and downloading the PDF patterns. I don't think it's any more risky than selling printed hard copy patterns and having to trust that the buyer will not copy and distribute it. In the final analysis, either the buyer is honest or not.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

courier770 said:


> dialfred, no it is NOT OK if someone gives you a copy. That is duplication and distribution even if money does not change hands.
> 
> There are various types of copy proof paper available (please see my earlier comments on this). Only the COPY is affected. You simply cannot make a useable copy.
> 
> I'm not going to divulge my source. I will tell you this, I did NOT find them on the internet. My attorney referred me to the company.


You won't divulge the source of your paper? You are kidding, right? Why wouldn't you help other designers protect their products like you do? That seems rather selfish. Why should you care if they use the same paper as you?


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## Jokim (Nov 22, 2011)

courier770 said:


> US Copyright was rewritten in the late 70's. Some vintage patterns have fallen off copyright but remember copyright is for the life of the copyright holder PLUS 75 years!
> 
> Is the copyright term as stated above: " ..life of .. holder PLUS 75 years.." true for all copyrights or only only those pertaining to knitting patterns? Thanks.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

What I choose to divulge or not divulge should not be a bone of contention any more than what you choose to divulge or not divulge. In the past you have been very critical of me..so I'll just consider this a continuation of past conversations.

You can either do the research for yourself or not. I'm not exactly sure why the average person needs in depth information on copy proof paper..but one is always free to do research. It's certainly NOT my job to do your research.

You can view this as selfish if you choose or you can realize that the technical information is one that I prefer to not choose. I'm not required to provide information that I'm not comfortable with divulging..but thank you for the scolding. You seem pretty adept at it...in short...MYOB or learn to do your own research!


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## kikifields (Jul 3, 2011)

Unless the owner of the copyright is getting a % of the sale of the pattern - then Yes! it's wrong!
Notify eBay and ask them, before you buy a pattern from XYZ Seller if they are breaking copyright laws.
If they are, eBay will boot them off!


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## arwenian (Aug 15, 2011)

The yarn companies can sell multiple copies of any pattern they own the rights to as can their agents. Most times they have in-house designers or have purchased the rights to the pattern from the designer. This is usually the case with the well known companies. 
We have more opportunities than ever to buy directly from the designer through sites like Knitting Paradise, Ravelry, Craftsy, Etsy and so many others. It's good for the designers and good for us. We should respect our designers rights and never copy. For many,this is their source of income and it requires time, energy and skill for which they deserve to be paid.


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## Mum7 (Oct 11, 2011)

Oh what a pity. This is usually such a lovely, friendly happy and helpful site. Let's not start "brick batting" ladies. If someone asks a question, they don't want a lecture. I doubt if I am the only member of KP who has been left with a "bad taste" at this squabbling.
Do we want to have to bring in a Sensor?


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Copyright is copyright..it doesn't matter what the genre is. I'm a bit insulted that someone feels I need to divulge every bit of information/source that I have. You can do a google search right? You are an adult? I owe you NO answers as to what supplier I use anymore than you are bound to tell me where you purchase your underpants.

This has been an adult and polite conversation..until now. Someone always has to cross the line and "demand" information, followed by an insult!

If you had a real "need to know" about such technology, you would have sent a private message rather than attack me, as you have done in the past. Knock it off!

My copyright attorney put me onto the paper company I use. You are free to retain an attorney who can do the same for you.

This entitlement attitude and demanding that everyone "share" is so embarrassing.

By the way if you ask my yearly income, I'm likely to respond in a similar manner.


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## Karzie (Nov 29, 2012)

arwenian said:


> The yarn companies can sell multiple copies of any pattern they own the rights to as can their agents. Most times they have in-house designers or have purchased the rights to the pattern from the designer. This is usually the case with the well known companies.
> We have more opportunities than ever to buy directly from the designer through sites like Knitting Paradise, Ravelry, Craftsy, Etsy and so many others. It's good for the designers and good for us. We should respect our designers rights and never copy. For many,this is their source of income and it requires time, energy and skill for which they deserve to be paid.


Absolutely! Well said!


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## Goldengate (Jan 30, 2013)

Mum7 said:


> Oh what a pity. This is usually such a lovely, friendly happy and helpful site. Let's not start "brick batting" ladies. If someone asks a question, they don't want a lecture. I doubt if I am the only member of KP who has been left with a "bad taste" at this squabbling.
> Do we want to have to bring in a Sensor?


I heartily agree with you! No censor!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I agree that no sensor should be needed, nor should members feel "bullied" into providing information to those who "demand" such information. A polite exchange of information, sans "demands" should be free flowing information and when someone states they are not comfortable giving such information..it should be respected.


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## Goldengate (Jan 30, 2013)

courier770 said:


> I agree that no sensor should be needed, nor should members feel "bullied" into providing information to those who "demand" such information. A polite exchange of information, sans "demands" should be free flowing information and when someone states they are not comfortable giving such information..it should be respected.


How would you use a sensor? Some electronic pattern sensor? A divining rod used by the Pattern Police? Interesting images emerge! Ah! Patterns would be embedded with identifying chips!! Got it!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Thank you for the sarcasm..I do assume it was sarcasm right? I guess you figure everyone should work for free and live off of entitlement programs? That's what you are saying right?

I'm really sorry that you have little or no respect for the creative ability of others and think it should all be "free". 

"Pattern Police?"Obviously you have never invested months of your life into a pattern development and had it "shared" (stolen). Would you work for an employer that didn't pay you for 6 months of work? I doubt it. Would you work for 3 months with no pay? Would you work for a month with no pay? How about a couple of weeks? Maybe a week?

If the shoe were on the other foot would you be so generous? Would you or your children be willing to go without food? Without heat or electricity..maybe water would be something you could live without. Sewer service or trash collection? Would you work for free?


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## greatgrannytidy (Mar 10, 2013)

PLEASE, can we stop now. I have emailed the company and am awaiting a reply. I will NOT buy from anyone who is sending out copies as I DO respect designers and feel they SHOULD be paid for their work.


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## colleend2006 (Aug 25, 2012)

Thanks for the food for thought, Courier!
I've been selling printed patterns, and had been planning to switch to PDFs, but might want to rethink this.
I had one person email me, saying they'd bought one of my patterns a year before, but couldn't find the file on their computer, so I must not have sent it to them, and they wanted me to send another copy. The pattern didn't even exist as a PDF, and I told them so. I don't know if they were just confused or what.

I bought a pattern from etsy and could not find it on my computer I emailed the lady and she was kind enough to resend it. I will buy from her again


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## Dowager (Jun 7, 2011)

Just another sticky little point. Copyright begins when the "item" is created. So even though an item is not registered, the copyright exists. The purpose of registering the copyright is to prove that YOU own the copyright to the item, and when you submitted proof of Ownership. That way, if someone else tries to claim copyright, and did not register it before you did, the law holds that you own the copyright.


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## E Christina Dabis (Mar 31, 2013)

Just to make my life simple: I buy patterns. I add them to my collection, and I index them, too! Why? They have VALUE! 

Women, sad to say, do not 'value' their possessions or themselves, really. WE DO HAVE VALUE (think of all the service people needed to fill your role) and our crafts have value, too! 

In my "TRUST" I have listed my collections. I show their purchase value and any recently published resale value. 

I don't mind paying for patterns; I'll make the money back AND a profit, too!

Don't cheat yourself, and your estate. Buy the danged patterns and treat them as men would do, as a valuable collection!


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## mzmom1 (Mar 4, 2011)

vjh1530 said:


> You won't divulge the source of your paper? You are kidding, right? Why wouldn't you help other designers protect their products like you do? That seems rather selfish. Why should you care if they use the same paper as you?


Just google it, it's easy to find.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

It still amazes me on the misconceptions of what copyright truly means. The laws on our books are NOT open to interpretation to lay people who"think" they mean what may or may not apply to them. Please take the time to "educate" yoursvlves, rather than making a horses behind of yourself.


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## foxglove (Jun 17, 2012)

Raybo said:


> E-Bay thinks it's wrong too. If it's reported to them they'll take some action to stop the it. I know this because I once bought an appliance owner's manual there which had been photocopied from an original. I didn't report it but somebody did and I received a notice from E-bay that this vendor had been discontinued from E-bay. But of course they can't watch everybody who lists something on there, so I guess they just wait for somebody to report it. :XD:


I complained to e-bay about people selling copies of knitting patterns, also selling pages ripped out of magazines for silly prices. They even copy the pages to sell the pattern over and over again. To this day nothing has been done and it is still going on.


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## rkr (Aug 15, 2012)

JMStaltice - courier was responding to your comment: 
>>>Thank you courier770 for your reply. Why is it not copyright infringement to sell them at a garage sale or estate sale after I am gone but not while I'm still alive. I'm not trying to be difficult. I just find it a bit confusing.<<<

In the first paragraph she stated that it's illegal to duplicate any copyrighted materials for re-distribution in any format and in the second commented on distribution of materials after you're gone. 
But it goes w/o saying that you of course, may do the same thing now, while you have ownership in your possession. 
That's what I meant in my first post about the PTO's naming it the "Garage Sale Effect/eBay® Effect": the first owner/purchaser of any original IP material is free to dispose of any ORIGINAL material in any manner they wish, as long as they do not make copies of it for themselves or others first, NOR retain a copy of it in any manner (print, electronic, etc...) 

The original purchaser MUST dispose of that original purchase legally, according to the laws of the nation; ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Etsy and eBay also do not go after wrong-doers; they believe the first person to lodge a complaint against another no matter who is correct and files their paperwork properly. They also assume that no one lies/commits perjury: it states this in their Rules & Guidelines. This indemnifies them against damages. Beyond that they expect the two aggrieved parties to settle any matters between themselves. In the meanwhile they collect the fees and return nothing. They are NOT a not-for-profit company!


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## Knitish (Feb 8, 2011)

Etsy, Ebay. Craiglist and others function as the classified ads used to function in the days of newspapers. You and any legal owner can sell your Picasso or your Turner. So you can resale items as books at yard sales, library sales, charity sales, etc. You can even take them apart as people do with old nature or costume gravures torn out of books and framed. Buyers and users have certain "fair" rights of use to the product they buy, just as you can buy a car, drive it, loan it, resell it or donate it to a family member, a friend or a charity. That is just a few uses that have to be done within compliance of the law.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Just because a site, that collects revenue doesn't collect revenue from a 'scam" seller is irrelevant. YOU know what is and isn't right! YOU know when an designer is being exploited! Please don't claim ignorance when it "suits" you or not.

Stealing is still stealing shame on your parents for not teaching you better and shame on you for not teaching your children not to STEAL!


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## Savta Fern (Nov 28, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Yarn companies sometimes employ "in house" designers and sometimes they will purchase the rights to a pattern from an "outside" designer.
> 
> Where the copyright abuses come in, are on sites such as ebay, where people are selling copies of patterns they have no right to. Other abuses are committed by people who think that once they have purchased a single copy of a pattern, they are free to copy it and pass it along to everyone and their third cousin. This denies designers income from sales. Worse yet are those who "borrow" a book from a library and copy multiple patterns, multiples times and pass those around also.
> 
> ...


Yesterday, there was a picture of a gorgeous afghan Solaria that inspired me to put it on my list of things to do. I tracked down the pattern only to find that it is part of a book. I got to look through the rest of the book but only saw one other thing that might inspire me. I would have gladly paid to download a copy of just the pattern I would like but it can't be done. I have too many single patterns and books of patterns to be willing to spend $16.00 + 13 % tax and separate shipping costs for just that one magnificent pattern. If publishers would be willing to sell individual patterns from these books, I would be a much happier camper. The person who develops a pattern should definitely get paid for their time and effort.


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## Savta Fern (Nov 28, 2011)

jmai5421 said:


> Ditto.


Double ditto


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## Knitish (Feb 8, 2011)

Yes, the point that C770 makes is that "I" am not to steal. There is no knowledge on my part what they are doing. Like how am i to know? Like may last sentence said "in compliance with the laws". I will give a pertinent example. Used to own a really good books on clothing design, sewing, knitting, everything. It did get lost in a move. I would like another 'Creative Design' by Kaori O'Connor. Went to amazon and found TWO! Because i want to give one to a friend. That is ok. And i am not going to live in fear of what she may do with it. If another friend sees mine and wants to borrow it, i will lend it to her. I will not check up on her. If i copy a pattern to enlarge the print for mu personal use, write it up, and tear it up and destroy it when i am done -- that is a reasonable use not infringing on "fair use" rights for me. People should educate and interpret the laws, or else governments steal their freedoms. The free pattern by yarn companies are given because you financially support them by buying their yarn. I am not going to live in false-generated fear. If someone is misusing your copyrighted material, then you need to legally pursue that and collect damages.


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## E Christina Dabis (Mar 31, 2013)

It comes down to personal morals. We each have to live with our own decisions to abide by the laws, or violate them.


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## joycevv (Oct 13, 2011)

Our library system has dozens of knitting books available through interlibrary loan. I check them out and copy the patterns that I may use. I certainly don't sell them. Is it illegal to copy patterns from a library book for ones personal use? Can anyone tell me? Actually, I now just scan them and put them into the pattern folder on my laptop. I would have to live to be at least 300 to ever get around to knitting all the patterns I've collected!


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## E Christina Dabis (Mar 31, 2013)

joycevv said:


> Our library system has dozens of knitting books available through interlibrary loan. I check them out and copy the patterns that I may use. I certainly don't sell them. Is it illegal to copy patterns from a library book for ones personal use? Can anyone tell me? Actually, I now just scan them and put them into the pattern folder on my laptop. I would have to live to be at least 300 to ever get around to knitting all the patterns I've collected!


What was said in the copyright statement with that publication?


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## enid (Aug 25, 2011)

We do copies of patterns within our group, but just dont sell them, so thats OK


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I just checked back in...excuse me but i am NOT obligated to reveal any source.....I'm sorry is you think that I am. How rude to infer that I am!...where do you buy your underpants? How much do you pay for each pair? I'm so sorry that I do not reveal my sources.and how rude of you to demand that I do...now tell me again..where exactly do you get your drawers from and what do you pay for each pair? Give me a break!


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## E Christina Dabis (Mar 31, 2013)

courier770 said:


> I just checked back in...excuse me but i am NOT obligated to reveal any source.....I'm sorry is you think that I am. How rude to infer that I am!...where do you buy your underpants? How much do you pay for each pair? I'm so sorry that I do not reveal my sources.and how rude of you to demand that I do...now tell me again..where exactly do you get your drawers from and what do you pay for each pair? Give me a break!


Well said.


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## E Christina Dabis (Mar 31, 2013)

Right.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

NO that's NOT OK! I'm sorry bu t you and your "group" are committing piracy of copyrighted materials...I hope you are truly prepared to pay the price...stealing is stealing and under any other name..well...it's still STEALING!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Enid, it doesn't matterr if your group is stealing 5 cents or 5 dollars, you are still stealing! It's wrong!


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## E Christina Dabis (Mar 31, 2013)

courier770 said:


> NO that's NOT OK! I'm sorry bu t you and your "group" are committing piracy of copyrighted materials...I hope you are truly prepared to pay the price...stealing is stealing and under any other name..well...it's still STEALING!


You're right and they know it.


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## E Christina Dabis (Mar 31, 2013)

Look, this group of women would easily drop their needles and 'give to a cause' because it's the "right thing to do" and at the same time they pretend to be ignorant of simple basic copyright laws. True characters do show through.


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## Dowager (Jun 7, 2011)

enid said:


> We do copies of patterns within our group, but just dont sell them, so thats OK


Not necessarily.


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## Dowager (Jun 7, 2011)

E Christina Dabis said:


> Look, this group of women would easily drop their needles and 'give to a cause' because it's the "right thing to do" and at the same time they pretend to be ignorant of simple basic copyright laws. True characters do show through.


Chrisitina, most people ARE truly ignorant of copyright laws. An d copyright laws are not necessarily "simple" or "basic". As a former legal secretary, I know just how complicated even the simplest laws can get.


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## Knitish (Feb 8, 2011)

Enid: please go enter an internet search and check the 'copyrights rules explained' on copying in your country. They are too long and involved to repeat here and we do not know you or your groups specifics. Nor do we want to speculate or assume. Make sure you are in compliance, not breaking any laws, and stay within that framework. If your group is using for immediate personal use, or education, does not exploit or make any profit, then your group is probably ok. Yes, you CAN drive through a red traffic light, in certain areas, if certain conditions are met -- no traffic, a full stop, you can proceed on through.


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## E Christina Dabis (Mar 31, 2013)

Dowager said:


> Chrisitina, most people ARE truly ignorant of copyright laws. An d copyright laws are not necessarily "simple" or "basic". As a former legal secretary, I know just how complicated even the simplest laws can get.


They know they didn't buy the pattern or book, so it is not theirs to use. No, I don't agree that they are easily confused. Willingly confused; yes.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

They may know it but they seem to excuse their behavior, after all every else does it!...old expression if everyone jumped off a bridge..feel free to jump lemmings! It doesn't make it "right" and it certainly doesn't make it acceptable but feel free to justify your actions.After all"everyone else" does it. The nice part of being a grown up is knowing right from wrong. The ability to choose between right and wrong....separates us from animals.


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## Dowager (Jun 7, 2011)

joycevv said:


> Our library system has dozens of knitting books available through interlibrary loan. I check them out and copy the patterns that I may use. I certainly don't sell them. Is it illegal to copy patterns from a library book for ones personal use? Can anyone tell me? Actually, I now just scan them and put them into the pattern folder on my laptop. I would have to live to be at least 300 to ever get around to knitting all the patterns I've collected!


Yes, it is technically in violation of copyright law. Now if you OWN the book and copy the pattern to enlarge it so you can see it better for your personal use, that is different.


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## sarah1965 (Feb 13, 2012)

They get away with it because no one is rporting them for fraudulent activities


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## joanh8060 (Apr 22, 2011)

I purchased a patttern from Ravelry. Thought I was paying for it with my credit card....through PayPal...which I had used once before. Imagine my surprise when a $30 charge appeared in my checking account statement from "LoanFor You Today.com or some such 2nd party or 3rd if you count Ravelry. We filed a fraudulent claim with the bank and I called the phone number immediately....they claimed I agreed to that..and took me off the PayPal roster and promised to restore the $30...but it hasn't happened yet. $30 charge to buy a $6.50 pattern.....Comeon!! Joan 8060


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

We need to be wary and savvy consumers...sometimes this takes a little vigilance. We'd all like to think that the sites we are directed to are honest..I hate to tell you this..that's not always the case. Be wary, be very cafefull!


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## E Christina Dabis (Mar 31, 2013)

courier770 said:


> We need to be wary and savvy consumers...sometimes this takes a little vigilance. We'd all like to think that the sites we are directed to are honest..I hate to tell you this..that's not always the case. Be wary, be very cafefull!


Yes. And, using your credit card to pay for the item is perfect. Your credit card issuer will put the payment into "dispute" if you notify them about an issue with the item. They won't pay the provider until you're made whole.

Using PayPal, and your credit card is double protection.


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## Knitish (Feb 8, 2011)

Search "copyright laws" and note the "fair use" portion of the copyright laws: fair use is the limitation and exception to exclusive right granted by copyright law... [Not my words or invention!] Yes, not all copy is illegal. That is the question. As in anything, find out where YOU stand. Get educated!! Peace.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

A library system that allows borrowers to access a photocopy machine is NOT operating in the best interests of the system! Any librarian that allows unlimited access to "lending material only" is a library that I would not only challenge but distrust!. Libraries not only are educated in the area of "copy right they certainly know better. Those are lawsuits just waiting to happen...I'd distance myself as far as I possibly could from such an "ingnorant" bunch of asses asap! I well remember the days when "Peyton Place" as on the "banned list"...a few of my class mates ended up on the "banned for life" list because they didn't behave as their parents expected them to.


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## joycevv (Oct 13, 2011)

Libraries check out books to patrons. They have no idea if those patrons have access to photocopy machines. If designers publish a book of their designs, they know people will be using them, and not just the person who purchased the book. What is the difference if I copy it to use later rather than immediately making the item out of the book? If they want to sell one design at a time, they could do that over many internet sites or through yarn companies. I think unkindness and name calling is a far worse offense than photocopying a pattern for later use!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

IGNORANCE of the law is Never an excuse..not ever...ever. I'm sorry but this in one area where I have ZERO tollerance. Thirty five years ago some idiot took his chances...he broke in on a young mother..with an infant to protect..He took the wrong gamble and didn't think t hat a little 5'1" gal would heft a hunting rifle to protect her child. I took that gamble and trust me the memories are not all that "fond". After blowing my "would be" rapist through a door..I was placed in handcuffs..my baby was temporarily removed from my custody. My "baby" was handed over to strangers... I was fingerprinted like a criminal. Pardon me but for 24 hours I was treated like a criminal..NOT a protective mother. I spent close to 48 hours in custody..for killing a man who happily would have seen my baby and I dead....Do I regret what I did? Yes there are days when I wish t he outcome would have different. Do I regret killing the man who would have taken my life or my child's life? Not in the least...I haven't lost a night of sleep in over 35 years!


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## ml3522 (Sep 8, 2012)

KnitPat is the sister website for Marriner Yarns of Cardiff


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## knitnanny (Feb 28, 2012)

I buy from Patternfish and as long as the site is creditable, you can buy and download patterns rather than get them delivered by mail. I would not buy a copy from anyone on eBay...


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

"Fair use" IS fairly well abused...talk to any music shop owner nd see how how much income they have "lost"to "fair use"
they have lost. Fair use applies to true instructors and real critiques. Give me a break! This is a very small segment of the problem. Piracy is t he true issue, to deny it is to to deny the real bull in the china shop.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

That's one if ans a maybe too close to comfort. If you want to bet your lifes income on those odd...I've got a gently used bridge for lease in Brooklyn!


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## Sharon Y (Aug 8, 2012)

I wondered about the legality of this too, and was told that most people (not all) who sell patterns on the internet only sell those which are no longer covered by copyright (apparently it only lasts so many years)?


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## Dowager (Jun 7, 2011)

I hate to admit it, but the library in my small town is, and has been for years, equipped with copy machines and the patrons can copy anything for 20 cents per page!


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## lizmaxwell (Jul 23, 2011)

On annies attick there are lots of patterns that can be downloaded. Perhaps this company has licenses from the various companies to sell their patterns. I had a look at the site and they only seem to have a limited number of patterns available.


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## nanasgrandcreations (Jun 28, 2011)

I agree with Sharon Y I often donate to Purple Kitty this is a company who only print/provide patterns that are no longer under copy write I would hate to think that my grand mother's century old pattern magazines would end up in the land fill from some ones lack of knowledge be sure to check out who you buy from some companies are very ethical


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## my2blkcats (Jun 9, 2011)

I agree also. I always make a copy for my own use so I can make notes, etc.


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## my2blkcats (Jun 9, 2011)

I don't think I would buy a pattern that I couldn't copy so I could make notes and save the original as new. I will have to start asking that question I guess when I want to purchase a pattern.


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## my2blkcats (Jun 9, 2011)

Good point! I do that sometimes also, I especially always enlarge graphs.


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## nanasgrandcreations (Jun 28, 2011)

this pattern book is no longer under copy write unless the family renewed the paper work


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## deshka (Apr 6, 2011)

I never thought of that, thanks for bringing it up. I have bought quite a few patterns online, but have gotten them from the designers sites. I think I will try to stick with those and buying the books. I have a lot of respect for copyrights, since we are in business and our products are copyrighted. 
I have seen the 5 hour baby sweater type patterns and claimed by several people. The oldest pattern I have seen of that is printed in an older Columbia Minerva baby book, so it's sort of funny what one can 'claim'. Also, some of the copiers now you can scan in the printed work and it will make a file that can be edited and come out looking like brand spankin new product.


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## dunottargirl (Oct 29, 2011)

I like patternfish too and I'm glad it's OK, and ravelry. I am sure the designers get something out of our payment. I do have patterns where the name of the person is stamped on it to prevent free copies. But any scanner can copy patterns.


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## my2blkcats (Jun 9, 2011)

I agree!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Here we go again with people who do not understand or do not want to understand the constraints of US copy right law. If your library is allowing the duplication of copyrighted materials they are aiding in copyright infringement. No it is NOT your God Given right to duplicate the intelligent property of another. Take the time to read US copyright laws before putting your foot in your mouth!

Until now this has been a fairly intelligent conversation about the actual legalities of copy right law. If you don't have a law degree and you have NOT retained the services of a copyright lawyer...you should butt out of the conversation..anything your have to offer is less than professional at this point, purely speculation and will not hold up in copy right litigation. Have I made myself clear enough? Unless you have legal, expertise in this matter, you are just throwing gas on a fire! There are so many misnomers in this area of the law it isn't even funny.

Would you offer in depth, medical expertise without being an MD? I doubt it. Don't offer advice in Jurice Prudence, without the education and training to back it up.! The field of law is complicated and what you "think"is right must be established in our legal system. Unlike football there are no "expert" arm chair quarterbacks. You either know the law, verbatim, or you are just shooting "from the hip".

I've tried very hard to sit back and listen to the, not only bad advice given on this subject but bite my tongue. How many of you, who have weighed in on this subject are attorneys? How many of you have studied copyright law? Given the answers, I've seen, I'm going to guess the numbers are slim to none.

I'm going to repeat this one more time...copyright law is very clear, it's very concise and it' not up to interpretation by laymen. You don't get to stand in front of a judge and say "gee I thought I would be able to..." what you do get to do is stand in front of a judge and accept the sentence..no if ands or butts!


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## janetj54 (Mar 12, 2011)

I would like to thank everyone for their questions and all the answers. I liked all the information it was very informative. It's only fair that if I can purchase patterns that I want why shouldn't everyone . I will not copy any patterns to give out its not right the designers should be paid for their work the have the knowledge to design. It's their hard work and time so they should be paid its not like they are charging a fortune and if you really want to make the pattern then buy it !


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

You are most welcome. Copyright laws can be confounding but the basic premise is pretty simple...don't do what you wouldn't want done to you or your family. you wouldn't want food taken off of the table your children eat from..so don't do it to someone elses children. You wouldn't want money taken our of your wallet..so don't take it out of another's. To me it's pretty simple.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

Whenever you have questions regarding copyright laws for patterns for "useful items" which is what knitting patterns come under, unlike music and books which are different laws, you can try looking at this site:

http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/site_index.shtml

Before anyone jumps on me, I know they are not lawyers, but they have done an amazing amount of research on the topic and have actually been to court over the topic. And won. They have many links to the actual court documents and government websites that pertain to this topic. This site may not be the final authority, but it does have quite a bit of information gathered together in one place. An actual copyright attorney is the best place to get definitive answers to specific questions, but this site is certainly worth a look-see.

If nothing else, it beats googling for hours to find the links, lol!


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## E Christina Dabis (Mar 31, 2013)

janetj54 said:


> I would like to thank everyone for their questions and all the answers. I liked all the information it was very informative. It's only fair that if I can purchase patterns that I want why shouldn't everyone . I will not copy any patterns to give out its not right the designers should be paid for their work the have the knowledge to design. It's their hard work and time so they should be paid its not like they are charging a fortune and if you really want to make the pattern then buy it !


You said it best!


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## dotb in mo (Dec 10, 2011)

I have gotten some copied magazine pages , as well as copied patterns. Sometimes you cannot tell until you get it, because the original is what is pictured .


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## enid (Aug 25, 2011)

Thank you very much for your PM. I wish I had not started this debate as I am sure I am not stealing in anyway. I belong to a group of knitters at our local senior centre and what we knit is sold to help with expenses of keeping the centre going. The lady in charge might decide on the pattern and then a copy is made for us. All the patterns we have are donated and so is the wool. Thank you for being on my side as it were, I am totally unaware of any rules for this. I didnt like being called a thief and was going to ignore it.
Thanks again


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## Little Person (Jul 13, 2012)

If you made copies for your personal use only, it is legal. I believe that that is printed on most or all patterns. However, it you make the copy for someone else, it is illegal and not fair to the designer.


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## jmai5421 (May 6, 2011)

Little Person said:


> If you made copies for your personal use only, it is legal. I believe that that is printed on most or all patterns. However, it you make the copy for someone else, it is illegal and not fair to the designer.


You can't make one for yourself if the pattern is not copyable. I now know to check first before I buy. I have one that I copied for myself but after many pairs of socks the copy needs to be trashed and recopied. I will still buy from that designer. I can keep the orginal and make a working copy. The plastic sleeve is nice with a erase marker, however I don't have an erase marker at every project. Pencils and pens are always handy. With a erase marker you put the pattern and project away as a WIP and when you come back most of your notes have been erased.


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## Dowager (Jun 7, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Here we go again with people who do not understand or do not want to understand the constraints of US copy right law. If your library is allowing the duplication of copyrighted materials they are aiding in copyright infringement. No it is NOT your God Given right to duplicate the intelligent property of another. Take the time to read US copyright laws before putting your foot in your mouth!
> 
> Courier, in NO way did I say that it is legal for my Library to offer copy machines and allow copying of anything the patron wishes. I merely said it was done at my local library. In fact, I stated in another post that I am a former legal secretary, and in the course of that career I learned about copyright law. However the average person who does not know, might see this done at the Library and thus not unreasonably assume that if the Library allows it, it must be o.k. Actually, what most people DON'T realize is that most web sites are copyrighted, and if you copy something from one without crediting the author, you are in violation of copyright law.
> 
> And that is another thing I wish you would discuss since you are so knowledgeable of copyright law. Exactly when and under what circumstances are you allowed to use material that is copyrighted as long as you credit the owner of the copyright?


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## lizmaxwell (Jul 23, 2011)

So perhaps libraries should not offer the service of providing a public copying machine.
When i was a student copying machines were not avaiable. If we wanted information from a book we had to take notes longhand.
If we wanted to use a quote from a book in an appendix we had to give total details of where the quote came from otherwise we could be accused of plaguerism.
As the majority of people now own computers with printers that can scan and copy do we need public photocopiers


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## Dowager (Jun 7, 2011)

lizmaxwell said:


> So perhaps libraries should not offer the service of providing a public copying machine.
> When i was a student copying machines were not avaiable. If we wanted information from a book we had to take notes longhand.
> If we wanted to use a quote from a book in an appendix we had to give total details of where the quote came from otherwise we could be accused of plaguerism.
> As the majority of people now own computers with printers that can scan and copy do we need public photocopiers


You might be surprised how many folks do NOT own computers with printers that can scan or copy and print. Many of us older folks don't, or if we do, they may be out of ink or something. or we don't really know how to use them, so if we have need of copies of something we have to go somewhere where we can have access to a "public" copy machine.


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## KRIKKITWARS42 (Aug 20, 2012)

As an attorney, I would note that it depends on the arrangements the site has made. Many designers have licensed certain people/sites with the right to sell them and they get royalties.


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## dogstitcher (Apr 14, 2013)

Knitting isn't the only place this occurs. I've seen it in the cross stitch world as well. The designers of cross stitch charts usually will let the purchaser make a working copy of the design. I do this periodically if it is an expectionally large chart. 
When I am finished with it, I shred it. Because of the copyright laws I won't put it in the trash.


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## sheila kay (Jan 2, 2013)

You must report this to Ebay, it is theft in every sense of the word. I am sure that any of the companies concerned would be grateful to hear what is going on.

Sheila


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## greatgrannytidy (Mar 10, 2013)

sheila kay said:


> You must report this to Ebay, it is theft in every sense of the word. I am sure that any of the companies concerned would be grateful to hear what is going on.
> 
> Sheila


this is not on EBay.
http://www.knitpat.com/
this is from the site
'KnitPat' is an online trading name of: Shaws (Cardiff) Ltd [Registered in England & Wales: 00495388]

Copyright

The website design, content, software and source code used on the site are the copyright of KnitPat or others as indicated. The pattern leaflets are to be used for non-commercial purposes. All rights are reserved.


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## KarenJo (Feb 24, 2011)

greatgrannytidy said:


> I found a web site where I can pay for and then download patterns. these are not the sites own patterns but sirdar, wendy, peter pan etc. so they can ¨sell¨ the pattern many times over. is this legal on copyright? am I doing the designer an injustice buying from them? just thought I´d ask before committing to buy.


If you buy a pattern at a yarn store, there are often multiple official" print copies of that pattern for purchase. It coud be a legitamite site that has the right to sell a certain number of patterns. Just sayin'...


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

easycreations said:


> I am a designer and am very interested in obtaining "copy proof" paper. I looked online, but didn't find anything close to where I live. Can you tell me where you purchase your paper? Does only the "copy" turn black or does the original also turn black from the light shining on it from the maching??
> 
> Thanks for your help
> Marcia


http://www.protectedpaper.com/product_p/obxuc.htm


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

Savta Fern said:


> Yesterday, there was a picture of a gorgeous afghan Solaria that inspired me to put it on my list of things to do. I tracked down the pattern only to find that it is part of a book. I got to look through the rest of the book but only saw one other thing that might inspire me. I would have gladly paid to download a copy of just the pattern I would like but it can't be done. I have too many single patterns and books of patterns to be willing to spend $16.00 + 13 % tax and separate shipping costs for just that one magnificent pattern. If publishers would be willing to sell individual patterns from these books, I would be a much happier camper. The person who develops a pattern should definitely get paid for their time and effort.


Agreed. That's a bit much for a single pattern or even two. Maybe you can get your local public library to buy it? Then you could borrow it.

Or ... depending on your knitting skills, you could duplicate it from the photo that Berroco has on their website. http://www.berroco.com/patterns/solaria-blanket
It appears to be worked from the outside towards the center, but there's nothing stopping you from reversing _that_ and making one that's a very close match to theirs. It seems to me, that anyone experienced enough to work it from the pattern would also be able to make it from such clear photos.


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## Jessica-Jean (Mar 14, 2011)

I can't believe I just read through all 12 pages of this! It's way past my bedtime! Off to dream of photocopiers, libraries, and pages of patterns!


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## Savta Fern (Nov 28, 2011)

Jessica-Jean said:


> Agreed. That's a bit much for a single pattern or even two. Maybe you can get your local public library to buy it? Then you could borrow it.
> 
> Or ... depending on your knitting skills, you could duplicate it from the photo that Berroco has on their website. http://www.berroco.com/patterns/solaria-blanket
> It appears to be worked from the outside towards the center, but there's nothing stopping you from reversing _that_ and making one that's a very close match to theirs. It seems to me, that anyone experienced enough to work it from the pattern would also be able to make it from such clear photos.


I put in a request to the library yesterday. I will be returning it next week. Disappointment on a large scale. I have no problem following a chart for colour changes but to have to follow a chart for stitch changes requires too much concentration for me when I want to sit down and relax. Gorgeous pattern and results but not for me. Imagine how disappointed I would have been if I had bought the book and not been able/willing to make the best pattern in the book.


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## Savta Fern (Nov 28, 2011)

Savta Fern said:


> I put in a request to the library yesterday. I will be returning it next week. Disappointment on a large scale. I have no problem following a chart for colour changes but to have to follow a chart for stitch changes requires too much concentration for me when I want to sit down and relax. Gorgeous pattern and results but not for me. Imagine how disappointed I would have been if I had bought the book and not been able/willing to make the best pattern in the book.


Correction!!!! I put in the request at the library last week and picked it up yesterday.


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