# Things are heating up in the world #2



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't think God appreciates the prayers of those who mistreat others. Do you?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> This is a cruel comment! You disgust me! You are truly a wolf in sheep's clothing! You claim to be a Christian and yet, you misrepresent my LORD, with your words! IMO, you should get on your knees and ask for forgiveness or go back to he#% where you belong! No one falls for your PHONY concern. You're a hateful person and I hope that your friends see you for what you are!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

BRAVO!!! Well put!!



DGreen said:


> If your god is in control, then he is one sick bastard.
> 
> I cannot for the life of me understand how some Christians can claim in all piousness that god is all good, all loving, all merciful, all just, and takes personal care of them.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Please tell me then, why god calls down earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, floods and other natural disasters on the good and the evil alike. If it is a punishment for sin, then he is not just or merciful. If he can't do anything about it, he's not all powerful. Your god is a complete contradiction in his very concept. All gods are, actually.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> Very sassy response.
> 
> I do, however, wish to remind the readers that all the judeo-christian religions believe in how you described god.


And I think they are merely telling God what to do. :hunf: :hunf: :hunf:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

georgethefifth said:


> HI everyone, I noticed John 3:16 quoted, can you all imagine how much God loved us, that He gave His only begotten son, so that we would be saved. We will never be able to love as He did. But every one seems to be so angry with each other. Stop, pray for each other, try to love each other as He wants us to love. None of us are perfect. I honestly love all of you ladies & gentlemen. Blessings, Dorothy


Dorothy, I'm sure you're a very good-hearted person, but what kind of love can you have for people you don't even know?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

georgethefifth said:


> the person you ladies are discussing is getting just what she wants. She is looking for attention & you are giving it to her. Put her on ignore & chat about something happier. With any luck she won't want to take part. Don't let anyone push your buttons. Blessings, Dorothy


Okay, now I see what you mean when you say you love all of us. Nothing.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Ignore her. SOB. She is only grandstanding, seeking attention. Just treat her like you treat any two year old.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Do you mean "any other two year old"?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

RachelL said:


> Over the past 2000 years there have been countless attempts to interpret current events according to the signs in the Bible. There have been innumerable predictions that the Second Coming was imminent. All have been wrong.


The past predictions were all wrong because the key element was missing: The land of Israel had not yet been returned to the Jewish people. The Second Coming will not happen until ALL the Jewish people are back in Israel. We are seeing that more and more Jews are going back to Israel because of the growing anti-Semitism throughout the world.[/quote]

And a lot more are remaining in the US, where they're intermarrying and not raising their technically Jewish children as Jews. So there will never be a time when ALL the Jewish people are back in Israel.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> If your god is in control, then he is one sick bastard.
> 
> I cannot for the life of me understand how some Christians can claim in all piousness that god is all good, all loving, all merciful, all just, and takes personal care of them.
> 
> ...


They have eyes but see not.

They have mouths, which unfortunately they use a lot.

Great message. Thank you.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Please tell me then, why god calls down earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, floods and other natural disasters on the good and the evil alike. If it is a punishment for sin, then he is not just or merciful. If he can't do anything about it, he's not all powerful. Your god is a complete contradiction in his very concept. All gods are, actually.


I thought it was because of the gays, but that might not be true in places like Pakistan.

But now that you've pointed it out, they'll tell you that just saying it will send you to hell, because unless you pay him lip service, their god will punish you. He's not just a contradiction; he's a narcissist.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> hi TOOTS:
> 
> YOu repeat the same things over and over about all liberals, you have all the answers - you tell us how wonderful you are, how you know more than anyone else about what people should say and what they should think. I sure do get to you when I call you on it.
> 
> ...


Designer, please ignore these truly horrible people who don't even have the decency to say such things in private. Obviously, they pay a lot of attention to what you've said and have figured out how to make you feel bad. It's the only thing they're able to figure out on their own. The problem is that since you don't have Alzheimer's, you're going to remember what they've said.

You just keep your mind on preparing for your move. I hope it all goes well, and if it doesn't, you'll have stories to tell us. Just remember: Living well is the best revenge.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> lovethelake said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe she is suffering from PMS or such a severe case of post menopausal symptoms because of her lack of estrogen, that she isn't thinking clearly and is angry all the time.
> ...


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
> 
> Do you mean "any other two year old"?


Yes, any other two year old. thanks.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

DGreen said:


> If your god is in control, then he is one sick bastard.
> 
> I cannot for the life of me understand how some Christians can claim in all piousness that god is all good, all loving, all merciful, all just, and takes personal care of them.
> 
> ...


Boy, do you need to study the Bible so you can understand God and the world you live in amongst Christians.

*Everything* that is going on in the world is of God's creation and design. If you truly wished to know, you would read and attempt to understand what is written in the Bible.

When you take matters into your own hands, you *are* following God's plan and in the footsteps of the first man and woman.

God doesn't demand you follow Him. He gives you the choice. If you choose not to understand and have a personal relationship with Him, you'll not understand the world around you AND you are taking matters into your own hands and it will not end well for you.

God himself picked up the sword, killed, and destroyed more than once the very _world_ He created because He was not pleased by His creation (mankind). God was not pleased that His sons and daughters turned from Him as many still do today and always will.

Everyone has the ability to write their own story apart from God. It is called 'free will' and everyone has one. That doesn't mean God has given up on you, but does mean you have given up on God. You'll never experience God's blessings and promises for you, but it remains your choice.

Left to ourselves, we will destroy ourselves and the lives we were meant to live and that includes everyone in the world not living and experiencing what was created for us. You can look anywhere and see what was prophesied happening.

God is a loving God but also takes matters into His own hands. He has destroyed His own creation three times already.

First with Adam & Eve, then with Noah and the flood, and then again with the people of Babel. The fourth time, God, chose a new path with Abram and Sarai. God NEVER gives up on us!

As I said, God, this final time doesn't demand His creations follow Him, he invites us through His grace and love for His us to follow Him. Yet, still, many refuse because men don't always get it right.

Yet, through His Grace, anyone can accept Him and follow Him.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

georgethefifth said:


> Hi there, yes my God is in control & all will come out good for man in the end. God in His mercy & kindness gave us all a mind of our own. We can decide if we want to choose good or evil. Otherwise, we would be puppets, God made us in His image & likeness. That does not mean that we are all going to be good. Again, He gave us the freedom to choose. Evil people make evil choices, good people make good choices. We can not blame God for what is happening, God made this world for us to live in and have peace & harmony. Man is to blame for what is wrong with our world. As human beings we are selfish, we want more & more. We should know the difference from good & evil, however, we don't always practice it. Blessings to you and yours


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Please tell me then, why god calls down earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, floods and other natural disasters on the good and the evil alike. If it is a punishment for sin, then he is not just or merciful. If he can't do anything about it, he's not all powerful. Your god is a complete contradiction in his very concept. All gods are, actually.


You do not understand God. God sends the earthquakes, tsunamis, etc., He doesn't call them down from someone else!

He is all Omnipotent (all powerful), Omnipresent (present everywhere all at once), and Omniscient (all knowing).

He is following HIS plan, not yours. There are zero contradictions in His plan and concept. The errors are all yours and ours (mankind).


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Thank you Baby Jesus
> 
> And thank you for the patience to help my dad and others suffering
> 
> Need to edit, KPG. I found that my dad is sometimes has no filters and makes very childish inappropriate comments. But, I smile, nod and hopefully coax him to a different place.


I know, it is so difficult to watch our elders return to children or witness their suffering, but we can only do our best to show our compassion, patience and understanding.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Yikes see I told you so KPG


sigh


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

georgethefifth said:


> I am capable of doing the "best" & that is praying. I see you are agreeing with what I wrote. He is in control. Blessings


 :thumbup: I'm there with you Sister!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> You are an alter ego for one of the D&P set. My guess is Gerslay: she's one of the very few intelligent ones' on that thread.


This is hilarious, Lisa, or do you prefer Dan, Beth, Betsy or some other name? You of all people should know better.

What number user name are you on now - have you hit 200 yet?

What about all the private communications we've exchanged when you praised the Denim core members and trashed all the Libs? What # alter ego was speaking then? :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Okay, now I see what you mean when you say you love all of us. Nothing.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
> 
> Do you mean "any other two year old"?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I thought it was because of the gays, but that might not be true in places like Pakistan.
> 
> But now that you've pointed it out, they'll tell you that just saying it will send you to hell, because unless you pay him lip service, their god will punish you. He's not just a contradiction; he's a narcissist.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Boy, do you need to study the Bible so you can understand God and the world you live in amongst Christians.
> 
> *Everything* that is going on in the world is of God's creation and design. If you truly wished to know, you would read and attempt to understand what is written in the Bible.
> 
> ...


Have a good trip.

:twisted:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Few people are so sure of everything. I can see you're proud of that.



knitpresentgifts said:


> You do not understand God. God sends the earthquakes, tsunamis, etc., He doesn't call them down from someone else!
> 
> He is all Omnipotent (all powerful), Omnipresent (present everywhere all at once), and Omniscient (all knowing).
> 
> He is following HIS plan, not yours. There are zero contradictions in His plan and concept. The errors are all yours and ours (mankind).


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I know, it is so difficult to watch our elders return to children or witness their suffering, but we can only do our best to show our compassion, patience and understanding.


 :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh, I'm so crushed to hear your allegations against others. Not. I can judge for myself. Most people do the same, but your attention-seeking nature compels you to tell 'all.' Go ahead. It's always good for a laugh.



knitpresentgifts said:


> This is hilarious, Lisa, or do you prefer Dan, Beth, Betsy or some other name? You of all people should know better.
> 
> What number user name are you on now - have you hit 200 yet?
> 
> What about all the private communications we've exchanged when you praised the Denim core members and trashed all the Libs? What # alter ego was speaking then? :XD:


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Designer, please ignore these truly horrible people who don't even have the decency to say such things in private. Obviously, they pay a lot of attention to what you've said and have figured out how to make you feel bad. It's the only thing they're able to figure out on their own. The problem is that since you don't have Alzheimer's, you're going to remember what they've said.
> 
> You just keep your mind on preparing for your move. I hope it all goes well, and if it doesn't, you'll have stories to tell us. Just remember: Living well is the best revenge.


==========

Thanks Purl. I needed to answer her.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

LTL wrote - KPG. I found that my dad is sometimes has no filters and makes very childish inappropriate comments. But, I smile, nod and hopefully coax him to a different place.


I know, it is so difficult to watch our elders return to children or witness their suffering, but we can only do our best to show our compassion, patience and understanding.

unless they are more left wing than you are in their politics? 

Compassion, Patience and Understanding ????You are unbelievable.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> LTL wrote - KPG. I found that my dad is sometimes has no filters and makes very childish inappropriate comments. But, I smile, nod and hopefully coax him to a different place.
> 
> I know, it is so difficult to watch our elders return to children or witness their suffering, but we can only do our best to show our compassion, patience and understanding.
> 
> ...


She's shameless, Designer--don't let her get you down. You're a good-hearted and extremely intelligent lady.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I have been watching the vote in Scotland -- I am not sure how much interest is felt here about it but personally, I am glad they voted to stay as part of the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth. 


It is one of the loveliest countries and as my family originated in Scotland I felt a real connection when I visited there. I am personally glad they decided to stay. They had a huge turnout. I wish Canada and the US would have such a wonderful turnout - then the people who are elected would really represent the country.

We have a beautiful autumn day here in Alberta. The leaves are turning a deep gold and the Rockies in the distance have snow on the peaks. A perfect day. 

Thanks to my friends who pm'd me - you all know who you are - 

We are going out with friends for lunch. Lived next door to them for 30 years when we were raising our children. So it will be hard to leave them. 

We will be at our destination this time next week which will be good. It will be nice to have visit with my son and family, and to get settled. 

I stayed up late to watch the Scottish election results so am going to have a nap before our lunch.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

"You do not understand God."

Mrs Gifts:

And god sent you her instructional manual?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Boy, do you need to study the Bible so you can understand God and the world you live in amongst Christians.

****
What makes you think I have not studied the bible and christianity? I come from a background of fundamentalist christians who indoctrinated me early, then became a catholic when I married young. I studied the bible as an adult and found the "answers" therein lacking in substance or sense. You suggest that you believe that all one needs to do to believe is to read the bible. You're wrong on so many levels. Don't assume that non-believers are ignorant. You don't need to "educate" me on christian belief. Been there.

*Everything* that is going on in the world is of God's creation and design. If you truly wished to know, you would read and attempt to understand what is written in the Bible.

****
The bible does not contain the answers you say it does. If, (and that's a big if), the world is of god's design, it's horribly flawed and could not have been designed by the god you describe.

When you take matters into your own hands, you *are* following God's plan and in the footsteps of the first man and woman.

****
You are saying that god planned that adam and eve would disobey, so when they actually followed his plan he then punished them (and all future generations) for doing what he planned in the first place. You don't see any contradiction in this? Read your statement again, if you will. That is exactly what you are suggesting and it makes no sense whatever.

God doesn't demand you follow Him. He gives you the choice. If you choose not to understand and have a personal relationship with Him, you'll not understand the world around you AND you are taking matters into your own hands and it will not end well for you.

****
I understand the world around me and take full responsibility for my own decisions, morality, ethics and beliefs because I have a brain and use it. I have no personal relationship with a fantasy, nor do I want one. When you say "it will not end well for you" I assume you are predicting that I'm headed for hell. Laughable, but still offensive. You are saying that if I don't submit to and worship him, that your merciful god will condemn me to eternal suffering for refusing to obey. This is not love, it's terrorism. But a pretty good way for men, who invented god, to control others.

God himself picked up the sword, killed, and destroyed more than once the very _world_ He created because He was not pleased by His creation (mankind). God was not pleased that His sons and daughters turned from Him as many still do today and always will.

Everyone has the ability to write their own story apart from God. It is called 'free will' and everyone has one. That doesn't mean God has given up on you, but does mean you have given up on God. You'll never experience God's blessings and promises for you, but it remains your choice.

Left to ourselves, we will destroy ourselves and the lives we were meant to live and that includes everyone in the world not living and experiencing what was created for us. You can look anywhere and see what was prophesied happening.

****
No, I don't see that at all. You're fooling yourself because you want to.

God is a loving God but also takes matters into His own hands. He has destroyed His own creation three times already.

****
So, this all knowing god did not know ahead of time his creation would disobey? Go back to the beginning of your statement and you, yourself, say he planned this all along.

First with Adam & Eve, then with Noah and the flood, and then again with the people of Babel. The fourth time, God, chose a new path with Abram and Sarai. God NEVER gives up on us!

****
Yep. If you don't get it right the first time, keep trying, even if you have to commit wholesale slaughter of the good along with the evil. There's some justice and mercy for you.

As I said, God, this final time doesn't demand His creations follow Him, he invites us through His grace and love for His us to follow Him. Yet, still, many refuse because men don't always get it right.

Yet, through His Grace, anyone can accept Him and follow Him.

*********
Christians that believe as you do amaze me. You cannot or will not engage in anything that resembles an intelligent discussion but fall back always, always, always, on quoting scripture. You obviously have no concept of logic, and if a logical thought creeps in you run from it like the plague because it might lead to actual reasoning. You argue like a three-year-old, fingers in ears, singing "la la la la la." I have asked reasonable questions of christians here and never get answers except bible quotes. Do you HAVE a brain? 
You seem to have no compassion, since all is unfolding per god's plan in spite of the brutality we see daily, then flaunt your supposed love for humankind. And that god loves us all, aside from the fact that he also loves blood sacrifice and suffering. If god is so good, he surely COULD have arranged salvation some other way than through blood sacrifice and horrible suffering. The concept of gaining love through suffering is a contradiction at it's very core; but that is the very core of christianity. Babies with cancer? Explain their suffering. The tens of thousands of women who are tortured as children or even babies, by genital mutilatation? Explain their LIFETIME of suffering. The innocents killed by war? Explain their suffering. The millions of hungry? Explain their suffering. If you believe this to be part of the mysterious ways of god, you are admitting there is no compassion from god - or you. Let me explain this "mystery" to you. The world is a random, unfair place. God is not in charge. Do what YOU can to relieve the suffering of others - that's merciful and loving.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> "You do not understand God."
> 
> Mrs Gifts:
> 
> And god sent you her instructional manual?


Oh, no. _He_ sent an invitation to join Him to everyone, which includes you, along with some party suggestions but no instructional manual. We all have free will to follow His suggestions or not.

BTW: You haven't RSVP'd yet, but you still have some time. Better late than never. I've thanked Him for his invitation to you, but He'd still like to hear from you personally.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Uh, huh. The woman has expressed in no uncertain terms her dislike of me and many others again and again and again. The majority of non Libs, since that is who she hurls her attacks at, do not even respond to her posts. So, how could we cause 'maximum impact.' We're not attacking and attempting to hurt her; it is the other way around, toots.
> 
> Join the real world. One would think a nurse, if you ever were one as you claimed, would recognize the signs and be the one to express your compassion and concerns. Don't see anything of the sort from you.


Once again she exhibits her true Christianity. It might be time to talk to her pastor and parents. That's what we do with out-of-control children. It's at the point of embarrassment.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Boy, do you need to study the Bible so you can understand God and the world you live in amongst Christians.
> 
> *Everything* that is going on in the world is of God's creation and design. If you truly wished to know, you would read and attempt to understand what is written in the Bible.
> 
> ...


You worship a schizophrenic.

"God doesn't demand you follow Him. He gives you the choice."

But "God himself picked up the sword, killed, and destroyed more than once the very _world_ He created because He was not pleased by His creation (mankind). God was not pleased that His sons and daughters turned from Him as many still do today and always will."

You say he has destroyed the world & his creations 3 times because he doesn't like what those he supposedly gave free will to--and whom he supposedly never gives up on--are doing.

I have read the bible--more than once--which is _why_ I am not a believer.


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

There is only One God, it is alright to question Him, but a bad idea to doubt Him. This is just a suggestion, read the bible & study it, you will find answers there that will make you think & feel differently about Who He is. Blessings.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Oh, no. _He_ sent an invitation to join Him to everyone, which includes you, along with some party suggestions but no instructional manual. We all have free will to follow His suggestions or not.
> 
> BTW: You haven't RSVP'd yet, but you still have some time. Better late than never. I've thanked Him for his invitation to you, but He'd still like to hear from you personally.


I must send my regrets but I cannot attend. I am using either my get out of jail card or my free will to decline. But thanks for the invite.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Dorothy, I'm sure you're a very good-hearted person, but what kind of love can you have for people you don't even know?


 :thumbup:


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

We may refuse to have God in our lives now, but when the end comes, "Every knee will bow & say that "Jesus Christ is Lord". every knee, not just the believers, every knee. Then it will be too late for the non believers. I love my life here on earth, but life will only begin when the Lord takes me home to Heaven to live with Him & His Son Jesus Christ for all eternity. Blessings to you all.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Jesus will not consider Jews unbelievers and you know why. So that leaves the Muslims and "the coalition" is taking care of that. And the other religions probably do not care one whit. As for getting on my knees, I can do that just fine but will need help getting up.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> Jesus will not consider Jews unbelievers and you know why. So that leaves the Muslims and "the coalition" is taking care of that. And the other religions probably do not care one whit. As for getting on my knees, I can do that just fine but will need help getting up.


 :lol:


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

it is called "Agape" love, it is the kind of love God has for me & for every one else. To say I believe in Him, I have to try to be more like Him. No matter how hard I will try I will never be like Him, my desire is to be more like Him. I don't see God, but my faith allows me to believe in what is not seen. That is what faith is, believing in the unseen. I can feel HIs Presence, I feel His love. I, like you, didn't believe, when the time came & I was introduced to my God, my heart felt like it was going to bounce out of my chest. My life was truly changed, I thought differently about others, I don't judge anymore. The Only One Who will judge is Jesus, He will judge us all one day. I would rather live with God in my life then without Him. He offers us all the choice, He is a gentleman, He does not force Himself on us. He allows us to either believe or not. His desire is to have all of us to believe in Him. If we decide not to believe, that is our choice. He will never stop loving us, even though we are all sinners. I love my Lord, I pray some day you will realize that you love Him too. Blessings.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

georgethefifth said:


> We may refuse to have God in our lives now, but when the end comes, "Every knee will bow & say that "Jesus Christ is Lord". every knee, not just the believers, every knee. Then it will be too late for the non believers. I love my life here on earth, but life will only begin when the Lord takes me home to Heaven to live with Him & His Son Jesus Christ for all eternity. Blessings to you all.


Sorry but that is only a Christian view, and a narrow minded interpretation at that. As a Buddhist I believe in reincarnation. Your views are yours and mine are mine, and never the twain shall meet, it appears. Jesus is accepted as a Prophet in many non Christians religions. So not every knee will be bent in subservience.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

georgethefifth said:


> it is called "Agape" love, it is the kind of love God has for me & for every one else. To say I believe in Him, I have to try to be more like Him. No matter how hard I will try I will never be like Him, my desire is to be more like Him. I don't see God, but my faith allows me to believe in what is not seen. That is what faith is, believing in the unseen. I can feel HIs Presence, I feel His love. I, like you, didn't believe, when the time came & I was introduced to my God, my heart felt like it was going to bounce out of my chest. My life was truly changed, I thought differently about others, I don't judge anymore. The Only One Who will judge is Jesus, He will judge us all one day. I would rather live with God in my life then without Him. He offers us all the choice, He is a gentleman, He does not force Himself on us. He allows us to either believe or not. His desire is to have all of us to believe in Him. If we decide not to believe, that is our choice. He will never stop loving us, even though we are all sinners. I love my Lord, I pray some day you will realize that you love Him too. Blessings.


Believe me you are more like him than you think since we created him in our own image. Blessings back to you.


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

Yes, our beliefs are different, that is what free choice is all about. We will have to pay for our decisions in the end. I sure would hate to be on the wrong side when we all find out that "every knee will bend" and say that He is Lord. Blessings,


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Oh, no. _He_ sent an invitation to join Him to everyone, which includes you, along with some party suggestions but no instructional manual. We all have free will to follow His suggestions or not.
> 
> BTW: You haven't RSVP'd yet, but you still have some time. Better late than never. I've thanked Him for his invitation to you, but He'd still like to hear from you personally.


SQM -- you had better listen - she is the know all, end all of God's plan. She only reads the posts that irritate her. She missed something along the way.

. I wonder what your Rabbi would say about her.

You show restraint. :thumbup:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

georgethefifth said:


> Yes, our beliefs are different, that is what free choice is all about. We will have to pay for our decisions in the end. I sure would hate to be on the wrong side when we all find out that "every knee will bend" and say that He is Lord. Blessings,


Please do not worry about me, just worry about yourself and may you be judged by your good works and your judgement of others.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Have a good trip.
> 
> :twisted:


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:


Apparently "compassion, patience, and understanding" are the rightspeak translations of "meanness, nastiness, and deliberate insult" in everyday English.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

DGreen said:


> If your god is in control, then he is one sick bastard.
> 
> I cannot for the life of me understand how some Christians can claim in all piousness that god is all good, all loving, all merciful, all just, and takes personal care of them.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:
 

> Few people are so sure of everything. I can see you're proud of that.


Those who are incapable of rational thought tend to be absolutely certain, especially when they're wrong.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

georgethefifth said:


> I am capable of doing the "best" & that is praying. I see you are agreeing with what I wrote. He is in control. Blessings


Please take your Christian clap-trap to the Prayer thread.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> "You do not understand God."
> 
> Mrs Gifts:
> 
> And god sent you her instructional manual?


Unfortunately, she left the brain out of the kit. She's kind of distractible when more important things are going on.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

georgethefifth said:


> it is called "Agape" love, it is the kind of love God has for me & for every one else. To say I believe in Him, I have to try to be more like Him. No matter how hard I will try I will never be like Him, my desire is to be more like Him. I don't see God, but my faith allows me to believe in what is not seen. That is what faith is, believing in the unseen. I can feel HIs Presence, I feel His love. I, like you, didn't believe, when the time came & I was introduced to my God, my heart felt like it was going to bounce out of my chest. My life was truly changed, I thought differently about others, I don't judge anymore. The Only One Who will judge is Jesus, He will judge us all one day. I would rather live with God in my life then without Him. He offers us all the choice, He is a gentleman, He does not force Himself on us. He allows us to either believe or not. His desire is to have all of us to believe in Him. If we decide not to believe, that is our choice. He will never stop loving us, even though we are all sinners. I love my Lord, I pray some day you will realize that you love Him too. Blessings.


 Amen.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> You are an alter ego for one of the D&P set. My guess is Gerslay: she's one of the very few intelligent ones' on that thread.


I think you might be wrong about georgethefifth. She's just a shill for her God.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> You seem to have no compassion, since all is unfolding per god's plan in spite of the brutality we see daily, then flaunt your supposed love for humankind. And that god loves us all, aside from the fact that he also loves blood sacrifice and suffering. If god is so good, he surely COULD have arranged salvation some other way than through blood sacrifice and horrible suffering. The concept of gaining love through suffering is a contradiction at it's very core; but that is the very core of christianity. Babies with cancer? Explain their suffering. The tens of thousands of women who are tortured as children or even babies, by genital mutilation? Explain their LIFETIME of suffering. The innocents killed by war? Explain their suffering. The millions of hungry? Explain their suffering. If you believe this to be part of the mysterious ways of god, you are admitting there is no compassion from god - or you. Let me explain this "mystery" to you. The world is a random, unfair place. God is not in charge. Do what YOU can to relieve the suffering of others - that's merciful and loving.


But it's so much harder than just preaching.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Sorry but that is only a Christian view, and a narrow minded interpretation at that. As a Buddhist I believe in reincarnation. Your views are yours and mine are mine, and never the twain shall meet, it appears. Jesus is accepted as a Prophet in many non Christians religions. So not every knee will be bent in subservience.


You are wrong. Every knee will bow. You won't be able to stop yourself when you are before God. Doesn't matter what you think now it will happen. Christ is not in the tomb but buddha is. So you are serving a dead god.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Designer, KPG lives to hurt people who disagree with her. To use your sister's condition as a way to get to you is beyond wrong. Turn your back on her and don't let someone who can stoop so low as to use a family tragedy hurt you. Don't give her the satisfaction of getting a rise out of you. I'm so sorry that you had to be subjected to her kind of vitriol. If she's a Christian, I'm a monkey's uncle.


Designer1234 said:


> hi TOOTS:
> 
> YOu repeat the same things over and over about all liberals, you have all the answers - you tell us how wonderful you are, how you know more than anyone else about what people should say and what they should think. I sure do get to you when I call you on it.
> 
> ...


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You are wrong. Every knee will bow. You won't be able to stop yourself when you are before God. Doesn't matter what you think now it will happen. Christ is not in the tomb but buddha is. So you are serving a dead god.


How do you "know" this? Based on your bible? Flimsy, CB, flimsy.

Besides, you sound a little threatening, there.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Those who are incapable of rational thought tend to be absolutely certain, especially when they're wrong.


 :thumbup:


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

DGreen said:


> How do you "know" this? Based on your bible? Flimsy, CB, flimsy.
> 
> Besides, you sound a little threatening, there.


How am I threatening? Yes by the Word of God is my testimony.

Philippians 2:10-11New King James Version (NKJV)

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You are wrong. Every knee will bow. You won't be able to stop yourself when you are before God. Doesn't matter what you think now it will happen. Christ is not in the tomb but buddha is. So you are serving a dead god.


Your ignorance is showing CB. Buddha was not a god, never claimed to be a god, and did not call himself a god. He lived his life like a normal human.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Your ignorance is showing CB. Buddha was not a god, never claimed to be a god, and did not call himself a god. He lived his life like a normal human.


Then why serve him?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

DGreen said:


> :thumbup:


What if you are wrong? Are you willing to spend to eternity in everlasting fire? Maybe use your heart instead of your head.


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Please do not worry about me, just worry about yourself and may you be judged by your good works and your judgement of others.[/quo
> 
> It is not my job to worry about others. The best I can do is pray for everyone. I do not judge anyone for their beliefs of how they live. That again, is freedom of choice. I can not judge anyone, I am on my own path, believe me I am not perfect, I struggle as well as every other person in this world. I don't have any reason to worry, I have complete trust in my God. No matter what will happen in my life, I know He is their to take care of me. Blessings to you.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> How am I threatening? Yes by the Word of God is my testimony.
> 
> Philippians 2:10-11New King James Version (NKJV)
> 
> 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


In response to this nonsense, I can only quote what you said yourself, "When you don't know what to say, say 'Jesus.'"

My inflection and emphasis, however, is different from yours, as in, "Jesus Christ in a sidecar, you must be kidding."


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

georgethefifth said:


> Yes, our beliefs are different, that is what free choice is all about. We will have to pay for our decisions in the end. I sure would hate to be on the wrong side when we all find out that "every knee will bend" and say that He is Lord. Blessings,


I bend my knee to no one and no thing. God will accept me as I am, standing before him upright instead of foolishly doing something I have yet to do in this life.

"Glad I come and Thou, dear Lamb
Shall take me to Thee as I am"


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

DGreen said:


> In response to this nonsense, I can only quote what you said yourself, "When you don't know what to say, say 'Jesus.'"
> 
> My inflection and emphasis, however, is different from yours, as in, "Jesus Christ in a sidecar, you must be kidding."


I never kid about my Lord. It is no joke. Why are you frightened of Him? He loves you just as you are. He died for you just as He did for me.He is knocking at the door for you to let Him in. I pray the Holy Spirit comes to You and shows you the real Jesus.


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

DGreen said:


> :thumbup:


that seems to be everybody who has commented on this topic. Blessings, to you all.


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I bend my knee to no one and no thing. God will have to accept me as I am, standing before him upright instead of foolishly doing something I have yet to do in this life.
> 
> "Glad I come and Thou, dear Lamb
> Shall take me to Thee as I am"


that is what you are feeling & thinking NOW. But the day will come when you will bow your knee to the Lord God Almighty. Not my words, but the Lord's. Blessings to you.


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

georgethefifth said:


> EveMCooke said:
> 
> 
> > Please do not worry about me, just worry about yourself and may you be judged by your good works and your judgement of others.[/quo
> ...


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Then why serve him?


You're making assumptions that are not valid. Followers of Buddah follow TEACHINGS and wise advice. They do not worship in the sense that Christians do. Far from it. They are encouraged to use their intellect to find truth for themselves.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I never kid about my Lord. It is no joke. Why are you frightened of Him? He loves you just as you are. He died for you just as He did for me.He is knocking at the door for you to let Him in. I pray the Holy Spirit comes to You and shows you the real Jesus.


Jesus F--ing Christ, you're dense.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

georgethefifth said:


> that is what you are feeling & thinking NOW. But the day will come when you will bow your knee to the Lord God Almighty. Not my words, but the Lord's. Blessings to you.


No, that day won't come for me, no matter what *the man-made Bible* says. When He calls me home, I will run to Him and He will take me to Him as I am.


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Jesus F--ing Christ, you're dense.


why are you getting into disgusting language? This proves to me that when one is wrong they get angry. Keep calm, look to the Lord for guidance. Blessings


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Jesus F--ing Christ, you're dense.


I pray that you see the Light of the Lord. There is no need to attack me. Would buddha attack me ?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Designer, KPG lives to hurt people who disagree with her. To use your sister's condition as a way to get to you is beyond wrong. Turn your back on her and don't let someone who can stoop so low as to use a family tragedy hurt you. Don't give her the satisfaction of getting a rise out of you. I'm so sorry that you had to be subjected to her kind of vitriol. If she's a Christian, I'm a monkey's uncle.


Thanks Maid. You are not a Monkey's uncle any more than I have dementia- She is the one with the problem.


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> No, that day won't come for me, no matter what *the man-made Bible* says. When He calls me home, I will run to Him and He will take me to Him as I am.


What makes you think you are an exception? do you know something the rest of the world hasn't been told yet?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Is the tent revival over with now? Why can't you so called "Christians" go start a thread on your beliefs and leave those who don't believe as you do alone?
What really bothers me here is the people here who are condemning non believers to hell. Is that not the job of God?
Are you so righteous and pompous that you dare speak for him? Be careful there. Being _reborn_ does not make you Jesus Christ, nor gives you the right to condemn anyone. 
Some of you really need to go back to your bibles and rethink what a Christian is 
You may very well pray and shout the word, but your behavior here shows that 99% of you are charletans.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Is the tent revival over with now? Why can't you so called "Christians" go start a thread on your beliefs and leave those who don't believe as you do alone?
> What really bothers me here is the people here who are condemning non believers to hell. Is that not the job of God?
> Are you so righteous and pompous that you dare speak for him? Be careful there. Being _reborn_ does not make you Jesus Christ, nor gives you the right to condemn anyone.
> Some of you really need to go back to your bibles and rethink what a Christian is
> You may very well pray and shout the word, but your behavior here shows that 99% of you are charletans.


Are you talking to me Patty?


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

georgethefifth said:


> What makes you think you are an exception? do you know something the rest of the world hasn't been told yet?


I am no exception. I am created in God's image, and I was not made to bend my knee to anyone or anything. God's image is infinitively variable.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

georgethefifth said:


> why are you getting into disgusting language? This proves to me that when one is wrong they get angry. Keep calm, look to the Lord for guidance. Blessings


I find CB's attempts to convert me to be far more disgusting.

It takes a pretty arrogant person to stand up straight, look another person in the face and tell them their beliefs are wrong because "they" "know" the truth. It is deeply offensive. I believe you just indulged in the same kind of arrogance, George.

I have repeatedly said I don't believe and have given reasons why I think there should be freedom FROM religion because of the penchant for Christians to try to get their religion into law that governs everyone. This is a great evil, not a great good. Instead of using reason to understand the point, the discussion always devolves into threats of hell from their loving god. They deserve to be cursed at.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I pray that you see the Light of the Lord. There is no need to attack me. Would buddha attack me ?


I consider proselytizing a form of attack, which is what you do. The classic Christian "pot calling the kettle black." YOU are the one threatening me with hell.

Explain what Buddha has to do with anything. I'm an atheist, not a Buddhist.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Viva the UK and viva Scotland for its turnout. Good to see our allies stick together.



Designer1234 said:


> I have been watching the vote in Scotland -- I am not sure how much interest is felt here about it but personally, I am glad they voted to stay as part of the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth.
> 
> It is one of the loveliest countries and as my family originated in Scotland I felt a real connection when I visited there. I am personally glad they decided to stay. They had a huge turnout. I wish Canada and the US would have such a wonderful turnout - then the people who are elected would really represent the country.
> 
> ...


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I consider proselytizing a form of attack, which is what you do. The classic Christian "pot calling the kettle black." YOU are the one threatening me with hell.
> 
> Explain what Buddha has to do with anything. I'm an atheist, not a Buddhist.


I am not threatening I am warning you about hell. You are the one denying there is no God. You brought up buddha first. Why are you so threatening about what I say? I am not scary either. I come in love not hate.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I'm just wondering what's going on here. Is this how we are to witness? Does anyone think that this is how we bring souls to GOD? What is the true purpose of this discourse? I think that each should examine their motives. It seems to me that this is just chasing people further from GOD. Let it go! It is not serving GOD'S purpose, only yours.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm just wondering what's going on here. Is this how we are to witness? Does anyone think that this is how we bring souls to GOD? What is the true purpose of this discourse? I think that each should examine their motives. It seems to me that this is just chasing people further from GOD. Let it go! It is not serving GOD'S purpose, only yours.


Are you talking to me?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> Viva the UK and viva Scotland for its turnout. Good to see our allies stick together.


That was nice to see today, dame. From the way the media built it up, I thought Scotland would be independent. The voter turnout proved otherwise. 84%! That's big!


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I am no exception. I am created in God's image, and I was not made to bend my knee to anyone or anything. God's image is infinitively
> variable.


We are not talking about just anyone or anything here. We are talking about an Almighty God, Who made heaven and earth and all that is in it. You keep repeating you will bow to no one and nothing. Time will tell. I have things to do today that I must get done. I pray that you will have a good day. Much blessings are sent to you from me.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

georgethefifth said:


> We are not talking about just anyone or anything here. We are talking about an Almighty God, Who made heaven and earth and all that is in it. You keep repeating you will bow to no one and nothing. Time will tell. I have things to do today that I must get done. I pray that you will have a good day. Much blessings are sent to you from me.


God will be the judge of that. Your warnings are meaningless.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Are you talking to me?


To all who have ears to hear!


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

georgethefifth said:


> We are not talking about just anyone or anything here. We are talking about an Almighty God, Who made heaven and earth and all that is in it. You keep repeating you will bow to no one and nothing. Time will tell. I have things to do today that I must get done. I pray that you will have a good day. Much blessings are sent to you from me.


Ah, how refreshing to find another so-called Christian know-it-all. I also said I am made in God's image. He will take me to Him as I am. This seems to be a concept you've never heard of.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> To all who have ears to hear!


Since you have been sharing your views on politics and haven't converted any followers I will say....
The Holy Spirit speaks to me in a different way that you do. I think I will chose Him to listen too. God Bless


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I am not threatening I am warning you about hell. You are the one denying there is no God. You brought up buddha first. Why are you so threatening about what I say? I am not scary either. I come in love not hate.


You are displaying a shocking lack of respect for me. Do you really think I have never heard of hell? I didn't crawl out from under a rock yesterday, you know. I've had a long lifetime of hearing this from every direction in every guise and in varying degrees of "love."

Let me give you a head's up, CB. Smarter people than you have tried to convince me that god is real and failed. I'll make up my own mind about my beliefs and I take responsibility for my life. Butt out. Shut up. Go away. Save your breath for those who care, OK?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

DGreen said:


> You are displaying a shocking lack of respect for me. Do you really think I have never heard of hell? I didn't crawl out from under a rock yesterday, you know. I've had a long lifetime of hearing this from every direction in every guise and in varying degrees of "love."
> 
> Let me give you a head's up, CB. Smarter people than you have tried to convince me that god is real and failed. I'll make up my own mind about my beliefs and I take responsibility for my life. Butt out. Shut up. Go away. Save your breath for those who care, OK?


Your choice Heaven or hell. But I will be praying for you.


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm just wondering what's going on here. Is this how we are to witness? Does anyone think that this is how we bring souls to GOD? What is the true purpose of this discourse? I think that each should examine their motives. It seems to me that this is just chasing people further from GOD. Let it go! It is not serving GOD'S purpose, only yours.


If we don't tell the truth about God, how will people who don't know Him find out about Him? Do we just sweep it under the carpet, so to speak? I belong to a Christian motorcycle group, we attend rallies that we would rather not be there. But if we don't go, how will they know about the Lord. the thought of others not knowing Jesus as their Lord and Saviour makes me weep with sadness for them. It is only because we love God's people that we want to tell them the truth. If we don't, we will answer to God for it later. Having said that, the person we are witnessing to has the freedom to accept or deny Christ as their Lord & Saviour. We have done our part the decision is up to them. Blessings.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Since you have been sharing your views on politics and haven't converted any followers I will say....
> The Holy Spirit speaks to me in a different way that you do. I think I will chose Him to listen too. God Bless


Is this how to convert followers? Given the results of your efforts, what is the real purpose of this discourse?


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> God will be the judge of that. Your warnings are meaningless.


May the Lord God Almighty, bless you and open your heart to HIS word, not mine. Blessings


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

georgethefifth said:


> If we don't tell the truth about God, how will people who don't know Him find out about Him? Do we just sweep it under the carpet, so to speak? I belong to a Christian motorcycle group, we attend rallies that we would rather not be there. But if we don't go, how will they know about the Lord. the thought of others not knowing Jesus as their Lord and Saviour makes me weep with sadness for them. It is only because we love God's people that we want to tell them the truth. If we don't, we will answer to God for it later. Having said that, the person we are witnessing to has the freedom to accept or deny Christ as their Lord & Saviour. We have done our part the decision is up to them. Blessings.


Amen Sis. Blessing to you. ♥


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Perhaps you may ask the person if they want to be "witnessed" before you start imposing on them. Obviously, D.Green has rebuffed you on several occasions. Take a hint.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Is this how to convert followers? Given the results of your efforts, what is the real purpose of this discourse?


Don't worry about it.


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Amen Sis. Blessing to you. ♥


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

DGreen said:


> You are displaying a shocking lack of respect for me. Do you really think I have never heard of hell? I didn't crawl out from under a rock yesterday, you know. I've had a long lifetime of hearing this from every direction in every guise and in varying degrees of "love."
> 
> Let me give you a head's up, CB. Smarter people than you have tried to convince me that god is real and failed. I'll make up my own mind about my beliefs and I take responsibility for my life. hout. Shut up. Go away. Save your breath for those who care, OK?


As an idiosyncratic Catholic, I've been told many times here on KP that I will end up in Hell. Satan hasn't sent me an invitation yet. I don't plan to RSVP.

I hope the evangelistic, proselytizing fundamentalists will take the hint and leave you in peace.

To get back on topic, why aren't we hearing about Boko Haram these days? Are those girls they kidnapped no longer worth considering? Oughtn't we be concerned about terrorists wherever they are and whatever acts of terrorism they commit? Ooops, I forgot that most of the American public has the attention span of a gnat and want the news to go away so they can watch "Survivor" or "Big Brother House".


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Is this how to convert followers? Given the results of your efforts, what is the real purpose of this discourse?


To be sticklers, KFN. I can't think of any other reason. The world is riddled with religious wars and they feel the need to keep one going in here.
Very sad if you ask me.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Don't worry about it.


Never mind......


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Perhaps you may ask the person if they want to be "witnessed" before you start imposing on them. Obviously, D.Green has rebuffed you on several occasions. Take a hint.


She is not rebuffing ME, she is rebuffing the Lord. I am only HIs messenger. Nobody wants to be witnessed to when they are not walking with the Lord. I didn't, many people witnessed to me before I got the truthful message. My heart wasn't ready to accept Jesus into my life. I thank God every day that people didn't give up on me. God places it on our hearts to witness to others. The bible tells us to enter heaven, we must be reborn. I love others with the love of God. I am not judging, I am only loving. God loves all of us and His desire is for ALL of us to know Him. Blessings.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

georgethefifth said:


> She is not rebuffing ME, she is rebuffing the Lord. I am only HIs messenger. Nobody wants to be witnessed to when they are not walking with the Lord. I didn't, many people witnessed to me before I got the truthful message. My heart wasn't ready to accept Jesus into my life. I thank God every day that people didn't give up on me. God places it on our hearts to witness to others. The bible tells us to enter heaven, we must be reborn. I love others with the love of God. I am not judging, I am only loving. God loves all of us and His desire is for ALL of us to know Him. Blessings.


Oh, I didn't realize I was talking to god's appointed messenger. That makes it all ok.


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> As an idiosyncratic Catholic, I've been told many times here on KP that I will end up in Hell. Satan hasn't sent mean invitation yet. I don't plan to RSVP.
> 
> I hope the evangelistic, proselytizing fundamentalists will take the hint and leave you in peace.
> 
> To get back on topic, why aren't we hearing about Boko Haram these days? Are those girls they kidnapped no longer worth considering? Oughtn't we be concerned about terrorists wherever they are and whatever acts of terrorism they commit? Ooops, I forgot that most of the American public has the attention span of a gnat and want the news to go away so they can watch "Survivor" or "Big Brother House".


That is another topic, hopefully you receive the replies you desire. Who ever told you that you will go to hell is judging you. Jesus is the only one who will & can judge all of us. Until our last breath God will allow us to ask for forgiveness & invite HIM into our hearts & life. No matter how long or little time we have left. All things are possible for the Lord. As for watching television I have more meaningful things to do with my time. I have no idea which shows you have mentioned. You must know them or you wouldn't have brought them up. Blessings to you today.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> SQM -- you had better listen - she is the know all, end all of God's plan. She only reads the posts that irritate her. She missed something along the way.
> 
> . I wonder what your Rabbi would say about her.
> 
> You show restraint. :thumbup:


My Rabbi would not say anything since I don't have one.

I like her posts because she is a better psychic than I am.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> As an idiosyncratic Catholic, I've been told many times here on KP that I will end up in Hell. Satan hasn't sent me an invitation yet. I don't plan to RSVP.
> 
> I hope the evangelistic, proselytizing fundamentalists will take the hint and leave you in peace.
> 
> To get back on topic, why aren't we hearing about Boko Haram these days? Are those girls they kidnapped no longer worth considering? Oughtn't we be concerned about terrorists wherever they are and whatever acts of terrorism they commit? Ooops, I forgot that most of the American public has the attention span of a gnat and want the news to go away so they can watch "Survivor" or "Big Brother House".


They don't control any oil, as far as I know.

You have a point about the girls. No one seems to care, but in a way I understand. How may evils can we think about at once? The world has gone insane.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I bend my knee to no one and no thing. God will accept me as I am, standing before him upright instead of foolishly doing something I have yet to do in this life.
> 
> "Glad I come and Thou, dear Lamb
> Shall take me to Thee as I am"


Then you won't be upright in front of god but on your hands and knees - like a lamb.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Then you won't be upright in front of god but on your hands and knees - like a lamb.


No, no. Jesus is the Lamb who gets to take as I am. :thumbup:


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> No, no. Jesus is the Lamb who gets to take as I am. :thumbup:


Oh! I thought Jesus is the shepherd and I am the lamb. Analogies are so confusing, aren't they?

Who is this new Dorothy or better yet who was George the Fifth? Which one of the Georges was particularly mad?


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

SQM said:


> Then you won't be upright in front of god but on your hands and knees - like a lamb.


It will be my pleasure to bow before my Lord. He has given me so much and done so much for me here on earth, to bow before Him in heaven will be a piece of cake. Most enjoyable. As for being like a lamb, we would be a gentle, kind, innocent & loving creature. Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

georgethefifth said:


> It will be my pleasure to bow before my Lord. He has given me so much and done so much for me here on earth, to bow before Him in heaven will be a piece of cake. Most enjoyable. As for being like a lamb, we would be a gentle, kind, innocent & loving creature. Nothing wrong with that.


But I would not allow a lamb to bleat in my face. Nice to meet you but Shalom and goodbye.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Oh, no. _He_ sent an invitation to join Him to everyone, which includes you, along with some party suggestions but no instructional manual. We all have free will to follow His suggestions or not.
> 
> BTW: You haven't RSVP'd yet, but you still have some time. Better late than never. I've thanked Him for his invitation to you, but He'd still like to hear from you personally.


Are you a man pretending to be a woman, pretending to be a man?


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Christian analogies are ever confusing. Jesus is the Lamb because he was sacrificed for us (the sacrificial lamb analogy). He's also our Shepherd, leading us to a better life.

I have no idea who Dorothy and George V are. George III was the particularly mad one. I assume they are alter egos of some of our dear Christian favorites.


SQM said:


> Oh! I thought Jesus is the shepherd an I am the lamb. Analogies are so confusing, aren't they?
> 
> Who is this new Dorothy or better yet who was George the Fifth? Which one of the Georges was particularly mad?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Now that some of us are stirred up, I would like to make a point, and I plead with you Christian evangelists to try to understand what I'm trying to say.

The last several pages are very revealing, in that widely divergent views exist on religion and religious freedom. I will take at face value that Christians are sincerely trying to spread what they believe as the "good word." I can see responses that tell me we have Jewish people with their beliefs and varying degrees of observance. There is a Buddhist. I'm sure we have not heard from many others who may be viewing the thread but who prefer not to join in. 

How does it make sense, then, for ANY of us, to promote their religion so far as to want it taught in schools or for laws to be passed favoring it over others? Can they not see how painful and wrong it would be to impose on those with differing beliefs, their own version of "truth?" That is the fundamental question we need to grapple with and it would be so nice to hear from you who would defend passing "Christian" laws, how and why you feel this is justified.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

georgethefifth said:


> We may refuse to have God in our lives now, but when the end comes, "Every knee will bow & say that "Jesus Christ is Lord". every knee, not just the believers, every knee. Then it will be too late for the non believers. I love my life here on earth, but life will only begin when the Lord takes me home to Heaven to live with Him & His Son Jesus Christ for all eternity. Blessings to you all.


You might just be georgethesixth by then. :shock:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Apparently "compassion, patience, and understanding" are the rightspeak translations of "meanness, nastiness, and deliberate insult" in everyday English.


Absolutely true.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I think you might be wrong about georgethefifth. She's just a shill for her God.


My point exactly.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I am going to change the topic from being aggressively preached to , to something more important and compelling -

I learned my favorite stitch yesterday - feather and fan. Now that should heat this thread up better than King George can.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I bend my knee to no one and no thing. God will accept me as I am, standing before him upright instead of foolishly doing something I have yet to do in this life.
> 
> "Glad I come and Thou, dear Lamb
> Shall take me to Thee as I am"


I'm not sure the word 'glad' was invented back then.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I'm not sure the word 'glad' was invented back then.


If I remember correctly, there is no word for happy in Hebrew - they had to borrow from the Arabic. PP will tell me if I am right.


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Christian analogies are ever confusing. Jesus is the Lamb because he was sacrificed for us (the sacrificial lamb analogy). He's also our Shepherd, leading us to a better life.
> 
> I have no idea who Dorothy and George V are. George III was the particularly mad one. I assume they are alter egos of some of our dear Christian favorites.


My name if you it will help you to have an idea who I am is Dorothy. I can assure you I am not mad. Even after reading the nasty comments you have made, I am still not mad. I am a woman who loves her Lord, if that makes me mad, so be it. I could ask who is "Maid in bedlam" the word bedlam is in itself "mad" sounding. But to each their own, as in beliefs ,names, decisions etc. As I wrote before,I am a woman who find it easier to love, rather than hate. I don't judge, who am I to judge others? I am only a lowly servant of God. I am a happy mother, grandmother, great grandmother & wife, who would do anything in my power to help others. I do hope this helps to clear up for you, as to who I am. blessings to you all.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> okay! Sorry ! Because I didn't stay permanently usually because of the workshops and sometimes because I hated the fighting - you took exception to that and greeted my posts with sarcasm and unkindness. I reacted. We have had a problem with each other ever since which had nothing, in my opinion to do with Politics, although we are on completely opposite sides.
> 
> Obviously from your answer it isn't something you are interested in. so be it. Just forget it.
> 
> I just re read my post - when I said sometimes we irritate each other - I mean we are on different sides and look at a lot of things differently. I just suggested we keep away from personal attacks which both of us have been guilty of. There are lots of things we don't agree on. However it is up to you.


Designer, nice spin on our "personal" fight. That's all it is, a spin to make you out to be the victim. What I said to you had absolutely NOTHING to do with your workshop schedule.

To refresh your memory, it's time to be honest, I was only talking about your reaction to the political threads. Posts got nasty and a lot of unkind things were being said about and to people on both sides. I know we can agree on that. You repeatedly said you didn't like the direction these threads were going and you were going to leave and no longer post to them. Then you would stay around and continue posting. You did eventually stay away from these political threads. After returning - checking back in was the term I believe you used - you posted that you had hoped that things would have changed but can see that they haven't which saddened you. You again said you were leaving and kept on posting. This scenario happen a few more times. Then I called you on that. It was not about your workshop schedule of even the content of your posts. It was solely on your stating you were leaving and then not leaving. I told you to either leave or stay, it didn't matter which, but make a commitment. That's all there was to it. Then you and your friends amused yourselves with leaving and staying posts. You emerged the victim, which is what you wanted so congratulations on that.

As far as burying the hatchet, I never believed you meant it at all, as is evident in the posts that followed. So be it.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I never kid about my Lord. It is no joke. Why are you frightened of Him?


Because he's a spooky old construct put out there to keep us all in line. Don't 'kid' yourself.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

georgethefifth said:


> My name if you it will help you to have an idea who I am is Dorothy. I can assure you I am not mad. Even after reading the nasty comments you have made, I am still not mad. I am a woman who loves her Lord, if that makes me mad, so be it. I could ask who is "Maid in bedlam" the word bedlam is in itself "mad" sounding. But to each their own, as in beliefs ,names, decisions etc. As I wrote before,I am a woman who find it easier to love, rather than hate. I don't judge, who am I to judge others? I am only a lowly servant of God. I am a happy mother, grandmother, great grandmother & wife, who would do anything in my power to help others. I do hope this helps to clear up for you, as to who I am. blessings to you all.


again nice to meet you. I appreciate your sharing but we understand your position and this thread is really for what is happening in the Middle East. What is your opinion about ISIS?


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

SQM said:


> again nice to meet you. I appreciate your sharing but we understand your position and this thread is really for what is happening in the Middle East. What is your opinion about ISIS?


What I can not control, I leave to the people who are in control. I am against anything that is evil. My opinion about ISIS won't fix the problems they are causing. I think they are cruel, should be stopped doing what they are doing. Again, I am against anything that is evil. blessings. PS Because I sometimes sign my name, it doesn't mean I am 2 people. LOL


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> In response to this nonsense, I can only quote what you said yourself, "When you don't know what to say, say 'Jesus.'"
> 
> My inflection and emphasis, however, is different from yours, as in, "Jesus Christ in a sidecar, you must be kidding."


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

georgethefifth said:


> It is not my job to worry about others. The best I can do is pray for everyone. I do not judge anyone for their beliefs of how they live. That again, is freedom of choice. I can not judge anyone, I am on my own path, believe me I am not perfect, I struggle as well as every other person in this world. I don't have any reason to worry, I have complete trust in my God. No matter what will happen in my life, I know He is their to take care of me. Blessings to you.
> 
> Please take the time to read & study Philippians 4: 6-7


Is it your job to keep annoying people with your preaching?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Jesus F--ing Christ, you're dense.


It took you a while, but you finally figured it out. :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

georgethefifth said:


> why are you getting into disgusting language? This proves to me that when one is wrong they get angry. Keep calm, look to the Lord for guidance. Blessings


That's not anger; it's exasperation. I know, because I'm feeling it, too.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Is the tent revival over with now? Why can't you so called "Christians" go start a thread on your beliefs and leave those who don't believe as you do alone?
> What really bothers me here is the people here who are condemning non believers to hell. Is that not the job of God?
> Are you so righteous and pompous that you dare speak for him? Be careful there. Being _reborn_ does not make you Jesus Christ, nor gives you the right to condemn anyone.
> Some of you really need to go back to your bibles and rethink what a Christian is
> You may very well pray and shout the word, but your behavior here shows that 99% of you are charlatans.


And you, Patty, speak truth.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


>


You're back at it again after saying you are done with it. Keep it up, you are only proving me correct.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

damemary said:


> You are disgraceful. You and your minions attack and repeat endlessly. You keep coming back. I'd rather have poison ivy.


I'll send you some and throw in poison oak at no charge.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Then you won't be upright in front of god but on your hands and knees - like a lamb.


Or like that famous poster of Farrah Fawcett (RIP), doggy style.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Are you a man pretending to be a woman, pretending to be a man?


Okay, this one you can't blame on me.


----------



## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> And a lot more are remaining in the US, where they're intermarrying and not raising their technically Jewish children as Jews. So there will never be a time when ALL the Jewish people are back in Israel.


Give it time. Just watch.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Now that some of us are stirred up, I would like to make a point, and I plead with you Christian evangelists to try to understand what I'm trying to say.
> 
> The last several pages are very revealing, in that widely divergent views exist on religion and religious freedom. I will take at face value that Christians are sincerely trying to spread what they believe as the "good word." I can see responses that tell me we have Jewish people with their beliefs and varying degrees of observance. There is a Buddhist. I'm sure we have not heard from many others who may be viewing the thread but who prefer not to join in.
> 
> How does it make sense, then, for ANY of us, to promote their religion so far as to want it taught in schools or for laws to be passed favoring it over others? Can they not see how painful and wrong it would be to impose on those with differing beliefs, their own version of "truth?" That is the fundamental question we need to grapple with and it would be so nice to hear from you who would defend passing "Christian" laws, how and why you feel this is justified.


Because they're right and everyone else is wrong. Don't you know _anything_?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I'm not sure the word 'glad' was invented back then.


Why not? It would have been related to "glee."


----------



## RachelL (Dec 18, 2011)

Knitpresentgifts wrote:



> "God himself picked up the sword, killed, and destroyed more than once the very _world_ He created because He was not pleased by His creation (mankind). God was not pleased that His sons and daughters turned from Him as many still do today and always will.
> 
> First with Adam & Eve, then with Noah and the flood, and then again with the people of Babel. The fourth time, God, chose a new path with Abram and Sarai. God NEVER gives up on us!"
> 
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> If I remember correctly, there is no word for happy in Hebrew - they had to borrow from the Arabic. PP will tell me if I am right.


שמח, _Same'ach_ (sorry, no vowels on this typewriter)? Is that Arabic?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Because he's a spooky old construct put out there to keep us all in line. Don't 'kid' yourself.


I know some very funny God jokes, and I'm still alive to tell them.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Because they're right and everyone else is wrong. Don't you know _anything_?


I have boundless faith in human intelligence.

Oh. Faith is believing without evidence. I'm in trouble, aren't I?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I have boundless faith in human intelligence.
> 
> Oh. Faith is believing without evidence. I'm in trouble, aren't I?


Yes.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

SQM said:


> I am going to change the topic from being aggressively preached to , to something more important and compelling -
> 
> I learned my favorite stitch yesterday - feather and fan. Now that should heat this thread up better than King George can.


That's a nice stitch SQM. I made a shawl using that stitch and it came out quite nice if I do say so myself. What are you making with it?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Yes.


Only in that I have faith in your intelligence. You have not demonstrated any ability to think rationally or critically. I notice you have not provided any justification for your apparent belief that the bible should rule us all.

I'll wait.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Only in that I have faith in your intelligence. You have not demonstrated any ability to think rationally or critically. I notice you have not provided any justification for your apparent belief that the bible should rule us all.
> 
> I'll wait.


 Do you want Scriptures? Or my personal life? I will be happy to share with you. Let me know.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You are wrong. Every knee will bow. You won't be able to stop yourself when you are before God. Doesn't matter what you think now it will happen. Christ is not in the tomb but buddha is. So you are serving a dead god.


Buddha was not a god, he was a man. The term buddha (Sanskrit: awakened one) is a title rather than a name, and Buddhists believe that there are an infinite number of past and future buddhas. The historical Buddha, referred to as the Buddha Gautama or simply as the Buddha, was born a prince of the Shakyas, on the India-Nepal border. He is said to have lived a sheltered life of luxury that was interrupted when he left the palace and encountered an old man, a sick man, and a corpse. Renouncing his princely life, he spent six years seeking out teachers and trying various ascetic practices, including fasting, to gain enlightenment. Unsatisfied with the results, he meditated beneath the bodhi tree, where, after temptations by Mara, he realized the Four Noble Truths and achieved enlightenment. At Sarnath he preached his first sermon to his companions, outlining the Eightfold Path, which offered a middle way between self-indulgence and self-mortification and led to the liberation of nirvana. The five ascetics who heard this sermon became not only his first disciples but also arhats who would enter nirvana upon death. His mission fulfilled, the Buddha died after eating a meal that may accidentally have contained spoiled pork and escaped the cycle of rebirth; his body was cremated, and stupas were built over his relics.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Buddha was not a god, he was a man. The term buddha (Sanskrit: awakened one) is a title rather than a name, and Buddhists believe that there are an infinite number of past and future buddhas. The historical Buddha, referred to as the Buddha Gautama or simply as the Buddha, was born a prince of the Shakyas, on the India-Nepal border. He is said to have lived a sheltered life of luxury that was interrupted when he left the palace and encountered an old man, a sick man, and a corpse. Renouncing his princely life, he spent six years seeking out teachers and trying various ascetic practices, including fasting, to gain enlightenment. Unsatisfied with the results, he meditated beneath the bodhi tree, where, after temptations by Mara, he realized the Four Noble Truths and achieved enlightenment. At Sarnath he preached his first sermon to his companions, outlining the Eightfold Path, which offered a middle way between self-indulgence and self-mortification and led to the liberation of nirvana. The five ascetics who heard this sermon became not only his first disciples but also arhats who would enter nirvana upon death. His mission fulfilled, the Buddha died after eating a meal that may accidentally have contained spoiled pork and escaped the cycle of rebirth; his body was cremated, and stupas were built over his relics.


Susan I don't really care. His body is still on the earth. Ashes or not. Jesus is not in the tomb. buddha is just a man flesh and blood.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You are wrong. Every knee will bow. You won't be able to stop yourself when you are before God. Doesn't matter what you think now it will happen. Christ is not in the tomb but buddha is. So you are serving a dead god.


Yes, Buddhists know that Buddha is in the tomb. There have been many Buddhas as the word Buddha means fully awakened and enlightened. When we refer to the Buddha we refer to the Enlightened one. When people speak of The Buddha they refer to 
Gautama Buddha, also known as Siddhārtha Gautama. Siddhārtha Gautama or the Buddha, was a sage on whose teachings Buddhism was founded.

"Buddha" is also used as a title for the first awakened being in an era. In most Buddhist traditions, Siddhartha Gautama is regarded as the Supreme Buddha.

Gautama taught a Middle Way between sensual indulgence and the severe asceticism found in the Sramana (renunciation) movement common in his region.

I am not serving a dead God. Buddha said "I am not a God, do not look to me for divine intervention. Do not take my word as gospel, but question every word I say".

Before he died, the Buddha instructed the sangha not to make images of him. In the Maha-parinibbana Sutta, he wanted each of his disciples to be an island unto his or herself, as a refuge unto his or herself seeking no other refuges. There were no portrayals of the Buddha in a human form in early Buddhism. But his presence was represented symbolical in pictures and sculptures by an empty throne, dharma wheels and footprints.

Buddhists do not serve, worship or idolise the Buddha, they strive to emulate him. 
Emulate: verb (used with object), emulated, emulating.
to try to equal or excel; imitate with effort to equal or surpass:


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes, Buddhists know that Buddha is in the tomb. There have been many Buddhas as the word Buddha means fully awakened and enlightened. When we refer to the Buddha we refer to the Enlightened one. When people speak of The Buddha they refer to
> Gautama Buddha, also known as Siddhārtha Gautama. Siddhārtha Gautama or the Buddha, was a sage on whose teachings Buddhism was founded.
> 
> "Buddha" is also used as a title for the first awakened being in an era. In most Buddhist traditions, Siddhartha Gautama is regarded as the Supreme Buddha.
> ...


No thank you I will try to emulate Jesus . He is the one that lead a perfect life and died for my sins.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Then why serve him?


Buddhists do not 'serve' Buddha, he is dead. Buddhists strive to emulate him.

emulate : to strive to equal or excel

I find it so sad that whilst Buddhists have a knowledge of Christianity, Christians do not attempt to enlighten themselves about Buddhism. Many of them simply accept the ill informed falsehoods that are sprouted by unenlightened preachers, who do not know about Buddhism.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Buddhists do not 'serve' Buddha, he is dead. Buddhists strive to emulate him.
> 
> emulate : to strive to equal or excel
> 
> I find it so sad that whilst Buddhists have a knowledge of Christianity, Christians do not attempt to enlighten themselves about Buddhism. Many of them simply accept the ill informed falsehoods that are sprouted by unenlightened preachers, who do not know about Buddhism.


Why waste your time trying to be like man when you can try to be like the Son of God? Don't be sad for me. Worry about your own believes. I am not deceived by trying to act like another person. Helps no one.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I pray that you see the Light of the Lord. There is no need to attack me. Would buddha attack me ?


Because you are seen as attacking those who do not follow your chosen religious path. You are happy, wrapped in your bible quotes, leave it at that, please. All that people ask is that you stop quoting your bible at them. It is simple, it should not be a difficult thing for you to understand. You now have a prayer thread, perhaps your bible quotes would be better received over there. I am not saying that you should not post elsewhere, I am asking that you stop preaching at others and saying they are condemned to the everlasting fires of an eternal hell because they do not follow your chosen religious path.

Not to worry, though, I know you will come back with further bible quotes to hurl at others who you regard as little better than heathen savages.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

georgethefifth said:


> What makes you think you are an exception? do you know something the rest of the world hasn't been told yet?


The trolls are still out in force. Last night we had the invasion of the nasty trolls, tonight we have the invasion of the religious trolls. Oh well, it keeps them off the streets, as they say.

But I will severely take to task those who unjustly criticise Designer. Designer is a caring, compassionate being. She has had a lot of pain and suffering in her life of late and to attack her in this way can only be the work of people with no love in their hearts, no compassion for their fellow humans.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I am not threatening I am warning you about hell. You are the one denying there is no God. You brought up buddha first. Why are you so threatening about what I say? I am not scary either. I come in love not hate.


Then why do you accept without question KPG's post that I am in the beginnings of Dementia because I won't accept her arrogant posts correcting everone etc. Or accept that she said that when I asked on the Prayer Thread for people to pray for my sister, myself and the family as she waits for a decision as to whether she will have to be put in an Alzheimers ward.

She knew that was cutting to me and made a point of saying it. I saw no Christian post from any of you saying you knew better and she was out of line with Christian behavior.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Is the tent revival over with now? Why can't you so called "Christians" go start a thread on your beliefs and leave those who don't believe as you do alone?
> What really bothers me here is the people here who are condemning non believers to hell. Is that not the job of God?
> Are you so righteous and pompous that you dare speak for him? Be careful there. Being _reborn_ does not make you Jesus Christ, nor gives you the right to condemn anyone.
> Some of you really need to go back to your bibles and rethink what a Christian is
> You may very well pray and shout the word, but your behavior here shows that 99% of you are charletans.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: Well said.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Why waste your time trying to be like man when you can try to be like the Son of God?


Well, I think your posts for the last ten pages or so answers that one, CB. In your efforts to emulate Jesus you've taken to whapping folks upside the head with your trusty Bible and threatening them with Hellfire--certainly not behavior He ever would have condoned.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> The trolls are still out in force. Last night we had the invasion of the nasty trolls, tonight we have the invasion of the religious trolls. Oh well, it keeps them off the streets, as they say.
> 
> But I will severely take to task those who unjustly criticise Designer. Designer is a caring, compassionate being. She has had a lot of pain and suffering in her life of late and to attack her in this way can only be the work of people with no love in their hearts, no compassion for their fellow humans.


I agree with you 100%, Evie. KPG's and LTL's attacks on Designer were outrageous and hateful. The conservatives have reached a new low, as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I am not threatening I am warning you about hell. You are the one denying there is no God. You brought up buddha first. Why are you so threatening about what I say? I am not scary either. I come in love not hate.


You say that you come in love not hate, but I find your quotes condescending and patronising.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Then why do you accept without question KPG's post that I am in the beginnings of Dementia because I won't accept her arrogant posts correcting everone etc. Or accept that she said that when I asked on the Prayer Thread for people to pray for my sister, myself and the family as she waits for a decision as to whether she will have to be put in an Alzheimers ward.
> 
> She knew that was cutting to me and made a point of saying it. I saw no Christian post from any of you saying you knew better and she was out of line with Christian behavior.


What are you talking about? I didn't say anything about you. You are confusing me with someone else . Again.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> You say that you come in love not hate, but I find your quotes condescending and patronising.


Martha you keep talking to me. I stopped talking now you are bringing me back up to talk. You say your believes I say mine. Why am I the one to stop talking?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> You say that you come in love not hate, but I find your quotes condescending and patronising.


Actually, CB's so-sweet words bring to mind those of a vampire--one rapping at the window begging to be admitted.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Anyone ever heard of the Sykes Picot Agreement? I ran into this article on the Blaze. I'm not sure if I agree with everything in the article, but I'd never heard of this. Beck says that ISIL is trying to take back the land that was promised to them under the Sykes Picot Agreement. Its definitely worth the read. It has a lot of information that's new (to me). 
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/09/18/the-100-year-old-agreement-you-need-to-know-about-if-you-want-to-understand-whats-driving-the-islamic-state/

Here's another article about the Sykes Picot Agreement.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/britain-and-france-conclude-sykes-picot-agreement


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Well, I think your posts for the last ten pages or so answers that one, CB. In your efforts to emulate Jesus you've taken to whapping folks upside the head with your trusty Bible and threatening them with Hellfire--certainly not behavior He ever would have condoned.


Susan don't worry about me. Just go back to playing.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Actually, CB's so-sweet words bring to mind those of a vampire--one rapping at the window begging to be admitted.


Susan , Susan, Susan. :roll:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> As an idiosyncratic Catholic, I've been told many times here on KP that I will end up in Hell. Satan hasn't sent me an invitation yet. I don't plan to RSVP.
> 
> I hope the evangelistic, proselytizing fundamentalists will take the hint and leave you in peace.
> 
> To get back on topic, why aren't we hearing about Boko Haram these days? Are those girls they kidnapped no longer worth considering? Oughtn't we be concerned about terrorists wherever they are and whatever acts of terrorism they commit? Ooops, I forgot that most of the American public has the attention span of a gnat and want the news to go away so they can watch "Survivor" or "Big Brother House".


" why aren't we hearing about Boko Haram these days?" I was also wondering about this. There does not seem to be any mention in the papers lately. Is it yesterday's news, therefore gone and forgotten? These girls and their families cannot be forgotten, but what is being done to stop the kidnappings?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> " why aren't we hearing about Boko Haram these days?" I was also wondering about this. There does not seem to be any mention in the papers lately. Is it yesterday's news, therefore gone and forgotten? These girls and their families cannot be forgotten, but what is being done to stop the kidnappings?


Not much, it appears. Schools and colleges are still being raided, and villagers slaughtered in their beds at night--I hate to say it, but I think most of those girls are gone forever.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> Oh! I thought Jesus is the shepherd and I am the lamb. Analogies are so confusing, aren't they?
> 
> Who is this new Dorothy or better yet who was George the Fifth? Which one of the Georges was particularly mad?


George V was the grandfather of the present Queen. He is the one who looked like a twin of the last Tzar. They were cousins. Made King George, the one who lost the American colonies, was George 111.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> You might just be georgethesixth by then. :shock:


Are you referring to George VI, the Queen's father?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> What are you talking about? I didn't say anything about you. You are confusing me with someone else . Again.


She didn't say that YOU said something. She's asking why you didn't stand up and declare that it was wrong of kpg to hurt her in the way that she did. You say you come in love, not hate. Then why do you not speak out against hate? It was hateful and it was hurtful, and yet, you said nothing.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Susan , Susan, Susan. :roll:


Sorry, CB--you can't come in. Why not try your local blood bank?


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree with you 100%, Evie. KPG's and LTL's attacks on Designer were outrageous and hateful. The conservatives have reached a new low, as far as I'm concerned.


Of course you would. But you fail to acknowledge the nasty comments Designer makes towards so many, and the heinous innuendoes made towards me. Fair is fair.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Of course you would. But you fail to acknowledge the nasty comments Designer makes towards so many, and the heinous innuendoes made towards me. Fair is fair.


No, you're not being fair. Unless Designer taunted someone about a loved one's poor health it was not a case of tit for tat--just you and the other conservatives being particularly unpleasant. Most of us have developed pretty thick skins and can take rude personal comments in stride--twitting each other about seriously ill family members is something else again.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Nasty troll is here again.

Has this thread also been killed by those on the right? It seems that they will not be satisfied until they drive anyone who thinks differently from them off KP altogether. That way they will have their nice little chat site set up just for themselves.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Nasty troll is here again.
> 
> Has this thread also been killed by those on the right? It seems that they will not be satisfied until they drive anyone who thinks differently from them off KP altogether. That way they will have their nice little chat site set up just for themselves.


I'm sure the prospect warms the cockles of their irksome little hearts. Hopefully though they won't succeed.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Definitely one protest I intends to follow. Does anyone think these folks will succeed?

"Protests planned to target U.S. southern border entry ports
Reuters By Lisa Maria Garza

DALLAS (Reuters) - American citizens describing themselves as "deeply concerned" with Obama administration immigration policies plan a mass protest on Saturday to press their demand to seal the southern border by blocking traffic at more than a dozen U.S. crossings.

Demonstrators will attempt to stop incoming and outgoing traffic at 17 of the 63 locations in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California listed on the U.S. Customs and Border Protection website.

Rob Chupp, an organizer of the action publicized as "Shut Down All Ports Of Entry," said more than a thousand people are expected to gather across the several states at the same time, 8 a.m. PDT/10 a.m. CDT at targeted checkpoints, park their vehicles in every lane and turn them off.

Chupp said protesters planned to camp out indefinitely, while avoiding trespassing on federal property, and expect the most serious legal consequence to be a traffic ticket.

"If it's putting people's safety at risk then we would move, but other than that, we won't," Chupp said.

Chupp said a First Amendment area has no boundaries.

"We're not going to be at every port so people can still travel in and out of the country," he said.

Their demands include permanently sealing the southern border with an impenetrable razor wire or electric fence, giving border patrol agents authority to detain and remove immigrants who cross the border illegally and ending U.S. government assistance to undocumented immigrants.

Chupp denied media reports that armed militias would be present at the demonstration. Everyone is acting as an individual and is responsible for their own actions, including the legal possession of concealed firearms, he said.

"This is not an open carry rally," Chupp said.

Customs and Border Protection said in a statement it has been coordinating with local police departments to respond to any situation near the ports of entry such as temporary blockage of traffic at the international border crossings.

"Our primary concern is to ensure the safety of our officers and the traveling public," the statement said.

Ruben Villarreal, mayor of Rio Grande City on the Texas border with Mexico, said he supports a right to peaceful protest but doesn't want demonstrators to obstruct roads or operations at the port of entry, where hundreds of millions of dollars of business is transacted every day.

"It's a lifeline to our country," Villarreal said. "It's a lifeline to our community."


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Nasty troll is here again.
> 
> Has this thread also been killed by those on the right? It seems that they will not be satisfied until they drive anyone who thinks differently from them off KP altogether. That way they will have their nice little chat site set up just for themselves.


I agree! They chase after us and disrupt discussion regardless of the subject matter. Its almost like stalking!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Definitely one protest I intends to follow. Does anyone think these folks will succeed?
> 
> "Protests planned to target U.S. southern border entry ports
> Reuters By Lisa Maria Garza
> ...


Define success. They're only trying to bring attention to the fact that anyone can enter our country whenever they wish, including ISIS. I'd feel safer if our borders were secure. Wouldn't you?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> What are you talking about? I didn't say anything about you. You are confusing me with someone else . Again.


I suppose Designer, who actually seems to like you, expected you to say that claiming she has Alzheimer's is a nasty thing to say. Instead you ignored KPG's message and got sarcastic with Designer. If that's the kind of behavior that goes with your faith, you'll have no luck converting anyone here. Why would anyone want to become a sarcastic, condescending know-it-all, and why would Heaven be open to you with an attitude like that? To be stuck with you for eternity would be Hell.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Actually, CB's so-sweet words bring to mind those of a vampire--one rapping at the window begging to be admitted.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> The trolls are still out in force. Last night we had the invasion of the nasty trolls, tonight we have the invasion of the religious trolls. Oh well, it keeps them off the streets, as they say.
> 
> But I will severely take to task those who unjustly criticise Designer. Designer is a caring, compassionate being. She has had a lot of pain and suffering in her life of late and to attack her in this way can only be the work of people with no love in their hearts, no compassion for their fellow humans.


I agree, dear Eve. Designer does not deserve the hate that has been directed at her.


----------



## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Anyone ever heard of the Sykes Picot Agreement? I ran into this article on the Blaze. I'm not sure if I agree with everything in the article, but I'd never heard of this. Beck says that ISIL is trying to take back the land that was promised to them under the Sykes Picot Agreement. Its definitely worth the read. It has a lot of information that's new (to me).
> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/09/18/the-100-year-old-agreement-you-need-to-know-about-if-you-want-to-understand-whats-driving-the-islamic-state/
> 
> Here's another article about the Sykes Picot Agreement.
> http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/britain-and-france-conclude-sykes-picot-agreement


It made me understand the ME better but not completely, and I believe it shows proof the the ME has not been at war with each other for 100's of years. Insite into Ottoman Empire and Lawrence of arabia was eye opening along with Woodrow Wilson and the League of Nations. I have much more to learn on Sykes Picot Agreement. Beck always makes me think and research.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Anyone ever heard of the Sykes Picot Agreement? I ran into this article on the Blaze. I'm not sure if I agree with everything in the article, but I'd never heard of this. Beck says that ISIL is trying to take back the land that was promised to them under the Sykes Picot Agreement. Its definitely worth the read. It has a lot of information that's new (to me).
> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/09/18/the-100-year-old-agreement-you-need-to-know-about-if-you-want-to-understand-whats-driving-the-islamic-state/
> 
> Here's another article about the Sykes Picot Agreement.
> http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/britain-and-france-conclude-sykes-picot-agreement


Is that the same issue of The Blaze that has an article on the Satanic coloring book soon to be distributed in public schools?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I suppose Designer, who actually seems to like you, expected you to say that claiming she has Alzheimer's is a nasty thing to say. Instead you ignored KPG's message and got sarcastic with Designer. If that's the kind of behavior that goes with your faith, you'll have no luck converting anyone here. Why would anyone want to become a sarcastic, condescending know-it-all, and why would Heaven be open to you with an attitude like that? To be stuck with you for eternity would be Hell.


Turn it around anyway you want. Spinning will make you dizzy. :shock:


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> She didn't say that YOU said something. She's asking why you didn't stand up and declare that it was wrong of kpg to hurt her in the way that she did. You say you come in love, not hate. Then why do you not speak out against hate? It was hateful and it was hurtful, and yet, you said nothing.


Please stay out of my business. I don't butt into yours. It is not my business to control everyone on KP. Why don't you correct your friends when they are bashing me?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Because you are seen as attacking those who do not follow your chosen religious path. You are happy, wrapped in your bible quotes, leave it at that, please. All that people ask is that you stop quoting your bible at them. It is simple, it should not be a difficult thing for you to understand. You now have a prayer thread, perhaps your bible quotes would be better received over there. I am not saying that you should not post elsewhere, I am asking that you stop preaching at others and saying they are condemned to the everlasting fires of an eternal hell because they do not follow your chosen religious path.
> 
> Not to worry, though, I know you will come back with further bible quotes to hurl at others who you regard as little better than heathen savages.


Eve, though it is not difficult to understand your words, CB apparently has no capacity for thinking outside her narrow mindset. I have repeatedly challenged her to engage in some thoughtful conversation but she only answers by throwing out scripture. I fear it is all she knows. I'm done trying, and while I won't promise to never respond to her in the future (depending on the extent of her egregious behavior), I will try to rob her of at least one opportunity to spew her unending stream of Jesus baloney.

She's been very disrespectful of your beliefs and I'm so sorry you were victimized by her blindness and lack of intellect when she characterized your beliefs as a waste of time. I sincerely don't think she has the mental capacity to understand why others might be offended.

You have obviously studied your beliefs and at least know why they make sense to you due to careful reflection. Questioning and refining one's understanding is crucial to a truly mature belief. Accepting whatever one has been taught without the benefit of any intellectual exploration is childlike and incomplete.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> I have boundless faith in human intelligence.
> 
> Oh. Faith is believing without evidence. I'm in trouble, aren't I?


Green - you are a riot. Are you new to the political/religious sites?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> That's a nice stitch SQM. I made a shawl using that stitch and it came out quite nice if I do say so myself. What are you making with it?


Just a schmata now. I am using cotton and one repeat to learn. But it is too nice to frog - 18 stitches on #7. Maybe a skinny red scarf?

So beautiful.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> Green - you are a riot. Are you new to the political/religious sites?


Back after a summer of travel. Soon to exit due to political activities that will take precedence over some of the nonsense.

I thank you and admire your wit and contributions to the discussion.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> What are you talking about? I didn't say anything about you. You are confusing me with someone else . Again.


No I am not doing anything of the sort. I am asking you whether you felt the KGP's post was way out of line for telling one of our other members that she should be taking me to the doctor because i definitely show signs of alzheimers or dementia. This was said to hurt me in any way she could as she knew from the Prayer group when I asked those there to pray for my sister (you were one of them that did) as she was being checked to find out whether she should go into an Alzheimers ward for the rest of her life, and that it had been confirmed she had to go. She and all of you know I was devastated.

So your wonderful Christian friend suggested during the same week when she was attacking me, that I was in the beginnings of dementia because I had left and returned two or three times and and had told them what I thought -- they certainly make their thoughts known all over the threads, however I was not supposed to express my feelings about what they say.

I had hoped one of you on your thread, you especially as you say your are a true Christian and preach to us all the time, would stand up and say, "this type of attack should not be put on these threads by anyone especially a Christian person, or even," I know that isn't true."

Your Christianity is all about preaching at people. It obviously does not mean you stand by it - I went to Church and my whole congregation stood up and came to me and comforted me. Some I didn't even know. Some I have not always agreed with -- every single one. that is what I am talking about. It is okay CB you answered my question.

I will not be discussing this any more. Courage used to be a huge thing with Christians -- I guess they pick and choose when they have courage to stand up and be counted.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> No I am not doing anything of the sort. I am asking you whether you felt the KGP's post was way out of line for telling one of our other members that she should be taking me to the doctor because i definitely show signs of alzheimers or dementia. This was said to hurt me in any way she could as she knew from the Prayer group when I asked those there to pray for my sister (you were one of them that did) as she was being checked to find out whether she should go into an Alzheimers ward for the rest of her life, and that it had been confirmed she had to go. She and all of you know I was devastated.
> 
> So your wonderful Christian friend suggested during the same week when she was attacking me, that I was in the beginnings of dementia because I had left and returned two or three times and had said the same things about them, told them what I thought -- they certainly make their thoughts known.
> 
> ...


I don't read every post so I don't know what you are referring I am suppose to have done. Now I am confused. Sounds like you are judging me. I can't control what people say. I have been blasted all day on here for my faith. You haven't came to my rescue for being a Christian. So what are you saying about that since you claim to be of the same faith that I am? I don't remember anyone saying anything against you on the prayer list.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Of course you would. But you fail to acknowledge the nasty comments Designer makes towards so many, and the heinous innuendoes made towards me. Fair is fair.


I have said and I will say again, that you dislike and want nothing to do with anyone who voted or likes President Obama. I have said you hate him. I have said you have never managed a whole post without blaming him except possibly the one above. Heinous? no. You told people you were 'afraid' of me on D and P. when I approached you with an offer to help you with crochet and you answered me as only you and I know. I lost all respect for you and will remark when I read one of your usual nasty posts if I feel like it.

That is my heinous post. I have no respect for you and never will. I think you are full of hate and nastiness. Anyone who says they want to bomb innocent people no matter whether they are guilty or not until the desert becomes glass , does not have much human kindness in her. You also said you would feel no qualms in doing it. If there has to be a ground war I doubt that the soldiers who are fighting would feel good about the innocents who are killed, maimed or mentally anguished. So your dear compatriot really tried to stick it to me with your support and acknowledgement. good for you.

That is it everyone -- I am out of here, back again tomorrow and then gone off line for a few days. I don't have any intention of rehashing this. I needed to answer, I am not sorry I did, and I have called it the way I see it. I am finished with it.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> Just a schmata now. I am using cotton and one repeat to learn. But it is too nice to frog - 18 stitches on #7. Maybe a skinny red scarf?
> 
> So beautiful.


Ooh, schmatta---one of my favorite words!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I don't read every post so I don't know what you are referring I am suppose to have done. Now I am confused. Sounds like you are judging me. I can't control what people say. I have been blasted all day on here for my faith. You haven't came to my rescue for being a Christian. So what are you saying about that since you claim to be of the same faith that I am? I don't remember anyone saying anything against you on the prayer list.


No one talked about me on the Prayer list, But I opened my heart about my sister there and your friend then attacked me yesterday and told me and a nurse friend from here that I should be taken to the doctor and checked for alzheimers or dementia. This was shortly after I opened my heart on NB and also on the Prayer thread that Marj. was likely going to be put in a long term alzheimers ward.. Read the post here if you haven't .

It was deliberate and cruel and nearly did me in. I don't care if she knows it. That is all I will say -


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I agree, dear Eve. Designer does not deserve the hate that has been directed at her.


You are right. You just have to consider the source where it came from and know that they truly are trolls. Shirley has more class, compassion and honor than those other 2 non essential beings could ever dream of having.
And one of them has a long bible quote under her signature. She is one of the charlatans that I was speaking of.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> No one talked about me on the Prayer list, But I opened my heart about my sister there and your friend then attacked me yesterday and told me and a nurse friend from here that I should be taken to the doctor and checked for alzheimers or dementia. This was shortly after I opened my heart on NB and also on the Prayer thread that Marj. was likely going to be put in a long term alzheimers ward.. Read the post here if you haven't .
> 
> It was deliberate and cruel and nearly did me in. I don't care if she knows it. That is all I will say to any of the 'Christians ' on the right. I will go to my Church for comfort and to my family and my friends here.


Hang in there Designer. There are plenty of people on KP who like you, respect you, and wish you well. Me, included.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> No, you're not being fair. Unless Designer taunted someone about a loved one's poor health it was not a case of tit for tat--just you and the other conservatives being particularly unpleasant. Most of us have developed pretty thick skins and can take rude personal comments in stride--twitting each other about seriously ill family members is something else again.


I support those who are saying that the post to Designer was a new low. Usually I laugh, but this particular post made me gasp. I think it was Mrs. Gift's great display of .....


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> I support those who are saying that the post to Designer was a new low. Usually I laugh, but this particular post made me gasp. I think it was Mrs. Gift's great display of .....


Flatulence, plain and simple, but not at all pleasant. Typical of that one.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Hang in there Designer. There are plenty of people on KP who like you, respect you, and wish you well. Me, included.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Thanks, I know some of you feel I should not have talked about it but enough is enough. If it carries on I will not be here to read it as I will be off line for a couple of weeks. Whether I come back or not I don't know. 

I am sorry I have taken away from the important things that are happening in the world. I Pray that ISIS can be stopped without a ground war. I Pray that President Obama find a way to solve this huge mess. It would be so good if the so called Christians prayed for him to Succeed instead of Praying for him to fail, and broadcasting to all that they hope he does. Your country and mine is at risk as well as the whole world.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Thanks Patty -- I am doing okay now. not so much yesterday. I talked it over with a Christian friend of mine from Church and decided to discuss it and to question it. I am not sorry I did but won't carry it on any more.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> No one talked about me on the Prayer list, But I opened my heart about my sister there and your friend then attacked me yesterday and told me and a nurse friend from here that I should be taken to the doctor and checked for alzheimers or dementia. This was shortly after I opened my heart on NB and also on the Prayer thread that Marj. was likely going to be put in a long term alzheimers ward.. Read the post here if you haven't .
> 
> It was deliberate and cruel and nearly did me in. I don't care if she knows it. That is all I will say -


Do you not think that your friends weren't deliberate in talking cruel and hurtful today about my faith ? I can be hurt too. You didn't take up for me. So where is the empathy for me? They were talking about Your Savior too. You were silent so I take that as consent.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Do you not think that your friends weren't deliberate in talking cruel and hurtful today about my faith ? I can be hurt too. You didn't take up for me. So where is the empathy for me? They were talking about Your Savior too. You were silent so I take that as consent.


No different than you telling people that they will go to hell if they don't accept your faith, Margaret. It's great to have faith, but not okay to keep trying to shove it down people's throats. That was what the other ladies were trying to say. If someone does not want to hear it, then walk away. Simple. Then all the bickering could be avoided. They don't need to be threatened with the Hounds of Hell and such. We are all adults here and have the right to worship in the way we believe and not worship for those who do not believe. Why can't you just accept that?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Thanks Patty -- I am doing okay now. not so much yesterday. I talked it over with a Christian friend of mine from Church and decided to discuss it and to question it. I am not sorry I did but won't carry it on any more.


You have nothing to be sorry about, Shirley. I saw the posts. 
Keeping you and yours in my heart.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> I support those who are saying that the post to Designer was a new low. Usually I laugh, but this particular post made me gasp. I think it was Mrs. Gift's great display of .....


Thankyou to all of those who have been kind enough to post about it -- It makes a difference to the person who is attacked and possibly it might make a difference to those who allow the attack to happen without standing up for their beliefs. I am fine now. I am not sorry I discussed it. She really got to me and I was so sad to start with. Love to all of you who stood up for me.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> No different than you telling people that they will go to hell if they don't accept your faith. It's okay to have faith, but not okay to keep trying to shove it down people's throats. That was what the other ladies were trying to say. If someone does not want to hear it, then walk away. Simple.


The other woman were just plain ugly. So I guess it is okay coming from the left? Got ya!They can be ugly to me just because I try to keep them out of hell. At least I am concerned enough to tell them. Double standard that I have to be preached to about budda. Designer likes to jump on me for things I don't even know about. That is like the 5th time now. But she wants me to take up for her? Maybe she needs to take up for me and OUR faith. Shirley you need to apologize to me for making up stuff I did to you. Or you could just keep me out of your rants.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Thankyou to all of those who have been kind enough to post about it -- It makes a difference to the person who is attacked and possibly it might make a difference to those who allow the attack to happen without standing up for their beliefs. I am fine now. I am not sorry I discussed it. She really got to me and I was so sad to start with. Love to all of you who stood up for me.


What about you attacking me out of nowhere?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> The other woman were just plain ugly. So I guess it is okay coming from the left? Got ya!They can be ugly to me just because I try to keep them out of hell. At least I am concerned enough to tell them. Double standard that I have to be preached to about budda. Designer likes to jump on me for things I don't even know about. That is like the 5th time now. But she wants me to take up for her? Maybe she needs to take up for me and OUR faith. Shirley you need to apologize to me for making up stuff I did to you.


Unbelievable--now YOU expect an apology? You disgust me, CB.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Unbelievable--now YOU expect an apology? You disgust me, CB.


Back off!


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Back off!


Sorry, Toots--no. You and your cronies started this.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry, Toots--no. You and your cronies started this.


I have no croonies. You need to butt out. Shirley came after me. I haven't talked to her since Mother's Day. Mind your own business. If you have any. I am not you toots.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> The other woman were just plain ugly. So I guess it is okay coming from the left? Got ya!They can be ugly to me just because I try to keep them out of hell. At least I am concerned enough to tell them. Double standard that I have to be preached to about budda. Designer likes to jump on me for things I don't even know about. That is like the 5th time now. But she wants me to take up for her? Maybe she needs to take up for me and OUR faith. Shirley you need to apologize to me for making up stuff I did to you. Or you could just keep me out of your rants.


That is what I am trying to say. If someone does not want to hear it, then stop. It only causes tension and more wars on these threads. The women on the right can be just as if even more ugly.. Just look at the posts directed at Shirley. That was flat out nastiness coming from women who want to save US from hell. 
I know you are strong in your faith and have respected that, but you have to show the same respect to those who do not believe as you do.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I have no croonies. You need to butt out. Shirley came after me. I haven't talked to her since Mother's Day. Mind your own business. If you have any. I am not you toots.


Sorry, dear--when you hurt a friend of mine it _is_ my business.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry, dear--when you hurt a friend of mine it _is_ my business.


I haven't done a thing to shirley. Just in your twisted mind. Show me what I did to her. She came after me . She knows it too.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I thought all of this would end when we left War on Women. 
We are involved in another thread and here they are.
BTW, whatever happened to War on Women? Seems like when we left, the thread disintegrated. 
We are followed and harassed all the time, no matter what thread we are posting in.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> That is what I am trying to say. If someone does not want to hear it, then stop. It only causes tension and more wars on these threads. The women on the right can be just as if even more ugly.. Just look at the posts directed at Shirley. That was flat out nastiness coming from women who want to save US from hell.
> I know you are strong in your faith and have respected that, but you have to show the same respect to those who do not believe as you do.


I haven't done anything to Shirley . She came after me. You call what has been said to me today pretty? I need to respect people for having no belief? What about having respect for my belief? Double standards. 
Shirley came after me. I told her I didn't read what she said. Take up for people who really have been wronged like me . I guess I am not as worthy as Shirley because I tell people about hell. She can say anything she wants and yall come to her rescue.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I haven't done anything to Shirley . She came after me. You call what has been said to me today pretty? I need to respect people for having no belief? What about having respect for my belief? Double standards.
> Shirley came after me. I told her I didn't read what she said. Take up for people who really have been wronged like me . I guess I am not as worthy as Shirley because I tell people about hell. She can say anything she wants and yall come to her rescue.


What about not worrying about what their faith is at all? Why should faith be the main contention in threads? I have friends who are Mormon, Jewish, agnostic, athiest, and yes, one Jehovah's witness. We are still friends because we respect the beliefs of each other and leave it at that.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Do you not think that your friends weren't deliberate in talking cruel and hurtful today about my faith ? I can be hurt too. You didn't take up for me. So where is the empathy for me? They were talking about Your Savior too. You were silent so I take that as consent.


You always twist it around to an attack on you. I am not surprised at your reaction. i know when we ask you to stop Preaching at us that you won't stop. It is all you do.

I should never have expected you to put your money where your mouth is - Christianity is how we ACT not just what we say. Enough said.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> No one talked about me on the Prayer list, But I opened my heart about my sister there and your friend then attacked me yesterday and told me and a nurse friend from here that I should be taken to the doctor and checked for alzheimers or dementia. This was shortly after I opened my heart on NB and also on the Prayer thread that Marj. was likely going to be put in a long term alzheimers ward.. Read the post here if you haven't .
> 
> It was deliberate and cruel and nearly did me in. I don't care if she knows it. That is all I will say -


I don't read NB so how would I know what you are saying on there. I am upset with you. You are not the only person that can be upset. I am upset right now for your judging me. You always come after me. I am tired of it.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> You always twist it around to an attack on you. I am not surprised at your reaction. i know when we ask you to stop Preaching at us that you won't stop. It is all you do.
> 
> I should never have expected you to put your money where your mouth is - Christianity is how we ACT not just what we say. Enough said.


You are something else. You have never asked me to stop preaching but you have asked me many times for prayer. Seems you must have some faith in my faith. So you are saying I am a terrible Christian because I witness to people? You did attack me and judged me for something I don't even know you are talking about.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> What about not worrying about what their faith is at all?


no point in arguing -- she has completely missed what we were trying to tell her. It is a shame we pick on CB -but maybe if she decided to stop pushing her beliefs on those who are not interested she would not have any problem.

I don't deliberately hurt someone about alzheimers or dementia. It is a terrible thing to happen that is something quite different than being asked not to preach to people who are not interested.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I haven't done anything to Shirley . She came after me. You call what has been said to me today pretty? I need to respect people for having no belief? What about having respect for my belief? Double standards.
> Shirley came after me. I told her I didn't read what she said. Take up for people who really have been wronged like me . I guess I am not as worthy as Shirley because I tell people about hell. She can say anything she wants and yall come to her rescue.


Good point, CB. The fact that none of your "friends" is here to support you speaks volumes.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I don't read NB so how would I know what you are saying on there. I am upset with you. You are not the only person that can be upset. I am upset right now for your judging me. You always come after me. I am tired of it.


Well, hello!! "Judge not lest ye be judged". Were you not judging the non believers today? It works both ways, CB.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> What about not worrying about what their faith is at all? Why should faith be the main contention in threads? I have friends who are Mormon, Jewish, agnostic, athiest, and yes, one Jehovah's witness. We are still friends because we respect the beliefs of each other and leave it at that.


 So you are saying I should let everyone just go straight to hell and not tell them the truth? I am not that kind of person to just turn my back on them. All of you lefters maybe say just go to hell but I won't. You can abuse me all you want but I will still keep trying to get you out of hell. Shame isn't it? Call me a terrible person for it. I don't care.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I haven't done anything to Shirley . She came after me. You call what has been said to me today pretty? I need to respect people for having no belief? What about having respect for my belief? Double standards.
> Shirley came after me. I told her I didn't read what she said. Take up for people who really have been wronged like me . I guess I am not as worthy as Shirley because I tell people about hell. She can say anything she wants and yall come to her rescue.


I never said you hurt Shirley in any posts made by you, I was speaking about the nastiness posted by your friends, KPG and LTL. Totally unwarranted and cruel.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Do you not think that your friends weren't deliberate in talking cruel and hurtful today about my faith ? I can be hurt too. You didn't take up for me. So where is the empathy for me? They were talking about Your Savior too. You were silent so I take that as consent.


NOBODY should be ridiculed for believing or not. It is hurtful for someone to make fun of someone who believes "in fairy tales." There is no scientific evidence for believing in God. It's faith, and you either have it or you don't. People are antagonized by efforts to try to "make" others believe. Nobody can be forced. It's a personal thing. On the other hand, if someone (not necessarily directing this at you, CB) makes a big display out of being a Christian (or any other religion) that person should not be name-calling, denigrating people, or being nasty here or in other aspects of life. Yes, I have been guilty, but mostly in trying to defend something or other. We're all human, but those who shout the loudest may have some harsh words coming back at them.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> So you are saying I should let everyone just go straight to hell and not tell them the truth? I am not that kind of person to just turn my back on them. All of you lefters maybe say just go to hell but I won't. You can abuse me all you want but I will still keep trying to get you out of hell. Shame isn't it? Call me a terrible person for it. I don't care.


That is the truth that you and many believe. There are many, many more who do not believe that. If they say that, then yes, you should let it go.
I am not trying to abuse you. I am trying to end this senseless war going on here. I do not believe I am going to hell.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> What about not worrying about what their faith is at all? Why should faith be the main contention in threads? I have friends who are Mormon, Jewish, agnostic, athiest, and yes, one Jehovah's witness. We are still friends because we respect the beliefs of each other and leave it at that.


So do I


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> That is the truth that you and many believe. There are many, many more who do not believe that. If they say that, then yes, you should let it go.
> I am not trying to abuse you. I am trying to end this senseless war going on here.


Well then stop talking to me. And tell Shirley to get her facts straight before she comes after me again. You all cause a lot on yourselves.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Well then stop talking to me.


If that is what you want, but only on one condition. Stop harassing the women in this thread. Nothing more needs to be said, Margaret.
You bring this on yourself.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> If that is what you want, but only on one condition. Stop harassing the women in this thread. Nothing more needs to be said, Margaret.
> You bring this on yourself.


Tell Shirley to leave me out of her rants.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Tell Shirley to leave me out of her rants.


I think you are a big girl and can do that all by yourself.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Turn it around anyway you want. Spinning will make you dizzy. :shock:


Just what is it that I've "turned around." You didn't object to KPG's message, did you? You didn't point out that saying Designer has Alzheimer's is disgusting, did you. You did say something sarcastic to Designer, didn't you? Where's the spin?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> NOBODY should be ridiculed for believing or not. It is hurtful for someone to make fun of someone who believes "in fairy tales." There is no scientific evidence for believing in God. It's faith, and you either have it or you don't. People are antagonized by efforts to try to "make" others believe. Nobody can be forced. It's a personal thing. On the other hand, if someone (not necessarily directing this at you, CB) makes a big display out of being a Christian (or any other religion) that person should not be name-calling, denigrating people, or being nasty here or in other aspects of life. Yes, I have been guilty, but mostly in trying to defend something or other. We're all human, but those who shout the loudest may have some harsh words coming back at them.


You are right Andrea. I can't force anyone out of hell. I wish I had the power. If I can keep anyone from going to hell I will shout the loudest. It is out of love that I shout. I know I am not received every time but at least I try. I am guilty of that.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Just what is it that I've "turned around." You didn't object to KPG's message, did you? You didn't point out that saying Designer has Alzheimer's is disgusting, did you. You did say something sarcastic to Designer, didn't you? Where's the spin?


How many times do I have to tell everyone I have not read any messages. No I didn't say anything sarcastic to Shirley.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You are right Andrea. I can't force anyone out of hell. I wish I had the power. If I can keep anyone from going to hell I will shout the loudest. It is out of love that I shout. I know I am not received every time but at least I try. I am guilty of that.


Nor do you have any right to say they are going to hell. That is up to God and God alone. He will decide that. And for those who do not believe, then there is no hell to be sent to.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Nor do you have any right to say they are going to hell. That is up to God and God alone.


Yes


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Okay then! Are we done now?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Okay then! Are we done now?


I doubt it. Everyone down the line will keep it up.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I don't read every post so I don't know what you are referring I am suppose to have done. Now I am confused. Sounds like you are judging me. I can't control what people say. I have been blasted all day on here for my faith. You haven't came to my rescue for being a Christian. So what are you saying about that since you claim to be of the same faith that I am? I don't remember anyone saying anything against you on the prayer list.


Tell the truth, CB. You insulted other people's beliefs (for example, buddhism); you kept preaching when we really had something else to discuss; you made yourself annoying as heck. It wasn't your faith you were blasted for; it was your language, your attitude, and your behavior.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Tell the truth, CB. You insulted other people's beliefs (for example, buddhism); you kept preaching when we really had something else to discuss; you made yourself annoying as heck. It wasn't your faith you were blasted for; it was your language, your attitude, and your behavior.


Patty said we can't talk about it anymore. You are the one keeping it going.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Fine tell Patty I did what you asked.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> CB - I have never questions that you have absolute faith, I question what you do with it. I have asked you to Pray for me and you have just fixed it so that I won't ask again. I will ask those who don't talk about it or use it in an argument. Yes there have been times in my life I have asked for your Prayers- soooo?? I appreciated it that you did.
> 
> Now that you have said that again and again over the past few months since you said I betrayed you, I will give you my word that I will never ask you to Pray for me again. I have friends who are just as good Christians as you who won't use that against me in an argument. They also are not obsessed with their beliefs. It is really sad as I valued you and your Prayers but now I will never ask you to do that for me again.


Please leave me alone. Patty said for me to tell you. If you continue I will be forced to turn you in for stalking me.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> No different than you telling people that they will go to hell if they don't accept your faith, Margaret. It's great to have faith, but not okay to keep trying to shove it down people's throats. That was what the other ladies were trying to say. If someone does not want to hear it, then walk away. Simple. Then all the bickering could be avoided. They don't need to be threatened with the Hounds of Hell and such. We are all adults here and have the right to worship in the way we believe and not worship for those who do not believe. Why can't you just accept that?


Bless you, Patty. Metaphorically, of course.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> The other woman were just plain ugly. So I guess it is okay coming from the left? Got ya!They can be ugly to me just because I try to keep them out of hell. At least I am concerned enough to tell them. Double standard that I have to be preached to about budda. Designer likes to jump on me for things I don't even know about. That is like the 5th time now. But she wants me to take up for her? Maybe she needs to take up for me and OUR faith. Shirley you need to apologize to me for making up stuff I did to you. Or you could just keep me out of your rants.


Preached to about Buddha? Just because one or two people showed you that you had the wrong idea about Buddhism? I think they were simply attempts to make you less ignorant about other people's beliefs. Didn't work, did they?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Please leave me alone. Patty said for me to tell you. If you continue I will be forced to turn you in for stalking me.


My post was over the hour. I removed one and will not in anyway discuss you Praying for me again. okay???


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Preached to about Buddha? Just because one or two people showed you that you had the wrong idea about Buddhism? I think they were simply attempts to make you less ignorant about other people's beliefs. Didn't work, did they?


Patty said for you not to talk to me.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

This is interesting. It seems to have parallels to the recent link KFN posted:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2014/09/kerry-says-iran-can-help-tackle-isil-threat-201491923615283773.html

What I mean is that Iran may think it can bargain it's way out of sanctions re it's nuclear program in return for fighting ISIS.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Thanks for trying Patty -- I agree with what you are trying to say and do. I will not discuss it any more. I have already asked admin to remove one of my posts. the one that is left will stay but there will be no more because I agree with you. thanks.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Thanks for trying Patty -- I agree with what you are trying to say and do. I will not discuss it any more. I have already asked admin to remove one of my posts. the one that is left will stay but there will be no more because I agree with you. thanks.


((( ))) hugs Designer.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> no point in arguing -- she has completely missed what we were trying to tell her. It is a shame we pick on CB -but maybe if she decided to stop pushing her beliefs on those who are not interested she would not have any problem.
> 
> I don't deliberately hurt someone about alzheimers or dementia. It is a terrible thing to happen that is something quite different than being asked not to preach to people who are not interested.


If I'm not mistaken, Shirley, you have referred to CB as somebody you regarded as a friend, or at least somebody you admired for her faith. It stands to reason that you expected her to treat you like a friend. Somehow that never entered her mind.

It was a hard lesson, but maybe that's how you can regard it.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Preached to about Buddha? Just because one or two people showed you that you had the wrong idea about Buddhism? I think they were simply attempts to make you less ignorant about other people's beliefs. Didn't work, did they?


Hmmm . . Buddhism . ..there's something about those candles and incense . . I think it's more of a personal spiritual journey than a religion. But what do I know?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> If I'm not mistaken, Shirley, you have referred to CB as somebody you regarded as a friend, or at least somebody you admired for her faith. It stands to reason that you expected her to treat you like a friend. Somehow that never entered her mind.
> 
> It was a hard lesson, but maybe that's how you can regard it.


You need to mind your own business. I treated her as a friend. I prayed for her and told her happy birthday merry Christmas checked on her. She betrayed me I didn't betray her. Patty said for everyone to shut it up.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> So you are saying I should let everyone just go straight to hell and not tell them the truth? I am not that kind of person to just turn my back on them. All of you lefters maybe say just go to hell but I won't. You can abuse me all you want but I will still keep trying to get you out of hell. Shame isn't it? Call me a terrible person for it. I don't care.


Please do me a favor and let me go to hell. As I've said already, if you're going to Heaven, I'll be happier elsewhere.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Please do me a favor and let me go to hell. As I've said already, if you're going to Heaven, I'll be happier elsewhere.


Patty said to shut it up.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> The other woman were just plain ugly. So I guess it is okay coming from the left? Got ya!They can be ugly to me just because I try to keep them out of hell. At least I am concerned enough to tell them. Double standard that I have to be preached to about budda. Designer likes to jump on me for things I don't even know about. That is like the 5th time now. But she wants me to take up for her? Maybe she needs to take up for me and OUR faith. Shirley you need to apologize to me for making up stuff I did to you. Or you could just keep me out of your rants.


No one preached to you about Buddha/Buddhism. You called him a god that is being worshiped and you were merely told that a) he wasn't a god, and b) he isn't worshipped. Buddhism is a way of life. There is a difference whether you like it or not.

You persistently yell that your beliefs MUST be everyone's belief and that you will "pray for us" to change our evil ways. Just remember what your New Testament says about praying:

Matthew 6:5-7King James Version (KJV)

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Patty said to shut it up.


Please...how old are you...5? Just go away.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> No one preached to you about Buddha/Buddhism. You called him a god that is being worshiped and you were merely told that a) he wasn't a god, and b) he isn't worshipped. Buddhism is a way of life. There is a difference whether you like it or not.
> 
> You persistently yell that your beliefs MUST be everyone's belief and that you will "pray for us" to change our evil ways. Just remember what your New Testament says about praying:
> 
> ...


Patty said to shut it up Susan.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

This is uncomfortable but thought provoking. Makes me think that there will never be peace in the ME, or at least, not for a very, very long time.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/09/obama-war-2014911142413797822.html


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> How many times do I have to tell everyone I have not read any messages. No I didn't say anything sarcastic to Shirley.


Okay, I get that you didn't see that perfectly disgusting message KPG left. But


Country Bumpkins said:


> You are confusing me with someone else . Again.


is pretty sarcastic.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> is pretty sarcastic.


Designer has gotten me confused with someone else. Just the truth. Patty said to drop it.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> No one preached to you about Buddha/Buddhism. You called him a god that is being worshiped and you were merely told that a) he wasn't a god, and b) he isn't worshipped. Buddhism is a way of life. There is a difference whether you like it or not.
> 
> You persistently yell that your beliefs MUST be everyone's belief and that you will "pray for us" to change our evil ways. Just remember what your New Testament says about praying:
> 
> ...


This is just too logical for the every day born again.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Patty said we can't talk about it anymore. You are the one keeping it going.


I'm done.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm done.


Good. Patty said to drop the subject.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Patty said for you not to talk to me.


Okay, I'll do it for Boss Patty.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Okay, I'll do it for Boss Patty.


 :thumbup:


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Please do me a favor and let me go to hell. As I've said already, if you're going to Heaven, I'll be happier elsewhere.


I don't think you have to worry about it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Hmmm . . Buddhism . ..there's something about those candles and incense . . I think it's more of a personal spiritual journey than a religion. But what do I know?


More than some people. You know, the ones who think Buddhists "serve" Buddha.

In any case, CB has said she hates religion. I mean "religion," the word.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:



> This is interesting. It seems to have parallels to the recent link KFN posted:
> 
> http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2014/09/kerry-says-iran-can-help-tackle-isil-threat-201491923615283773.html
> 
> What I mean is that Iran may think it can bargain it's way out of sanctions re it's nuclear program in return for fighting ISIS.


This will be interesting to watch and see what develops.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> Hmmm . . Buddhism . ..there's something about those candles and incense . . I think it's more of a personal spiritual journey than a religion. But what do I know?


Yes, you are right. Buddhism is but the path, it should not be thought of as a religion in the strictest sense.

Now, about that incense, I always loved going to Benediction as a child. The priest walking down the aisle waving the container with the incense wafting over our heads. I am sure that we kids were as high as kites for several hours afterwards. It was not until I was a teenager and someone asked what they were burning in the incense holder (I am sure it has a name but I cannot remember it). They said it had given them a bad headache and made them feel as if they were floating.

Just checked and I think it is called a Censer.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You need to mind your own business. I treated her as a friend. I prayed for her and told her happy birthday merry Christmas checked on her. She betrayed me I didn't betray her. Patty said for everyone to shut it up.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> This is interesting. It seems to have parallels to the recent link KFN posted:
> 
> http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2014/09/kerry-says-iran-can-help-tackle-isil-threat-201491923615283773.html
> 
> What I mean is that Iran may think it can bargain it's way out of sanctions re it's nuclear program in return for fighting ISIS.


Well, if we believe what they tell us, here we are making deals with the devil again. Wasn't it just months ago that they were telling us that Iran wanted to nuke us? They must really think we're stupid! Of course, if you (the proverbial you) believe everything you hear on TV, you are!

Thanks for sharing that. I hadn't heard.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You need to mind your own business. I treated her as a friend. I prayed for her and told her happy birthday merry Christmas checked on her. She betrayed me I didn't betray her. Patty said for everyone to shut it up.


I never once 'betrayed you' I posted something that I misunderstood and apologized to you. Let it go! YOu have carried it on for over a year. let it go.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Okay, I'll do it for Boss Patty.


me too.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I never once 'betrayed you' I posted something that I misunderstood and apologized to you. Let it go! YOu have carried it on for over a year. let it go.


You are stalking me again. I was talking to PP. You are the one carrying it on.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Wonderful gesture but is the monetary offering enough?

http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/australia-pledges-funds-to-help-iraq-women/story-e6frfku9-1227064935046


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You are stalking me again. I was talking to PP. You are the one carrying it on.


Go back to D&P. You've wreaked more than enough havoc today across several threads. It's getting ridiculous.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> Ooh, schmatta---one of my favorite words!


Al! Al! my beloved Al is back. I forget you are you.

I have been restraining myself from bringing this up but I no longer have filters. You need to get a better avatar for this new personality - cookie queen. The Brat is great at finding good ones.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Go back to D&P. You've wreaked more than enough havoc today across several threads. It's getting ridiculous.


What is D & P, or do I really want to know?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> This is uncomfortable but thought provoking. Makes me think that there will never be peace in the ME, or at least, not for a very, very long time.
> 
> http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/09/obama-war-2014911142413797822.html


Thanks for posting that. I agree with you and we'll probably be at war as long as I live.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> Al! Al! my beloved Al is back. I forget you are you.
> 
> I have been restraining myself from bringing this up but I no longer have filters. You need to get a better avatar for this new personality - cookie queen. The Brat is great at finding good ones.


Notice new avatar


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Designer, nice spin on our "personal" fight. That's all it is, a spin to make you out to be the victim. What I said to you had absolutely NOTHING to do with your workshop schedule.
> 
> To refresh your memory, it's time to be honest, I was only talking about your reaction to the political threads. Posts got nasty and a lot of unkind things were being said about and to people on both sides. I know we can agree on that. You repeatedly said you didn't like the direction these threads were going and you were going to leave and no longer post to them. Then you would stay around and continue posting. You did eventually stay away from these political threads. After returning - checking back in was the term I believe you used - you posted that you had hoped that things would have changed but can see that they haven't which saddened you. You again said you were leaving and kept on posting. This scenario happen a few more times. Then I called you on that. It was not about your workshop schedule of even the content of your posts. It was solely on your stating you were leaving and then not leaving. I told you to either leave or stay, it didn't matter which, but make a commitment. That's all there was to it. Then you and your friends amused yourselves with leaving and staying posts. You emerged the victim, which is what you wanted so congratulations on that. I hoped to be able to discuss without nastiness- instead I want to be a victim. believe what you want. You know it all.
> 
> As far as burying the hatchet, I never believed you meant it at all, as is evident in the posts that followed. So be it.


I did mean it - believe it or not. You misread my post . I hoped we could avoid the personal nasty posts but said we had huge differences of opinion so we would have disagreements or something to that effect. I hoped however that we could avoid trashing each other and forget our past nastiness on BOTH sides. As you say you never believed I meant it so it was a useless suggestion. I have tried before and you all agree about me except for Bonnie and I hope she has not changed her mind. I will understand if she has as nothing good is believed about me or said about me. So, not to worry I have given up trying. I did think it was possible for us but you weren't willing to give it a chance - so that is fine.

You are all on the same page about everything. I should n't have thought there was a chance. You discuss quietly and decide who is worth speaking to and who isn't. We are told we are not welcome and we respect it but 3 or 4 of you come and attack us every where we go.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Wonderful gesture but is the monetary offering enough?
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/australia-pledges-funds-to-help-iraq-women/story-e6frfku9-1227064935046


What do you think they (or we) should be doing? What could we do? I wonder what the money will be used for and will it be lost to governments, administration of funds and theft.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You are stalking me again. I was talking to PP. You are the one carrying it on.


I was reading what you said about me to purl about how I knifed you in the back and betrayed you,

That is enough CB forget it - and just leave me alone and I promise if you do you won't get a reply . Just quit telling the world that I betrayed you. They already know you think that and they already know I have explained it to you over and over. NO more. okay?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I am quoting what you said about me -- remember?


Oh my gosh!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Notice new avatar


I liked your cookie but I like this one too.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> Notice new avatar


My second gasp of the day. It is a dream, sheer perfection and so very you.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I think we need a break -- how about a picture of the 
beautiful beautiful Canadia Rockies. If I wasn't so busy moving , we would have driven to Banff and the Vermilion lakes right in Banff and eaten our lunch and drink in the beauty of Mt. Rundle - such a beautiful mountain, especially when covered with snow.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Al! Al! my beloved Al is back. I forget you are you.
> 
> I have been restraining myself from bringing this up but I no longer have filters. You need to get a better avatar for this new personality - cookie queen. The Brat is great at finding good ones.


Oh, I want the "brat" back. She was SO cute! Best avatar ever!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> Notice new avatar


Are "you" sticking out your tongue? :lol: 
These changing avatars confuse me. I won't know who you are. :lol:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I think we need a break -- how about a picture of the
> beautiful beautiful Canadia Rockies. If I wasn't so busy moving , we would have driven to Banff and the Vermilion lakes right in Banff and eaten our lunch and drink in the beauty of Mt. Rundle - such a beautiful mountain, especially when covered with snow.


So beautiful! Thanks for sharing the pics. Your thread picture is amazing. I read the post where you explained how you did it. It boggles my mind that you can create such beauty in that manner. You're so creative.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

..


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I still have the emails. Do you want me to post how you said you were sorry for it. You keep going with it. All they have to do is go read your post.You quit lying on me and jumping on me. You are stalking me again. Let it go. Stop bring attention to it. I didn't tell pp that you knived me I said betrayed me. You did. Three times in a row. I looked up 2 times Mother's day and then again on June 3rd. Do you want me to show you?


Hi Bumps,
Let us drop this topic already. There is so much going on in the world that heckling Designer is not so compelling.

I can hear a southern accent when you write.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> Hi Bumps,
> Let us drop this topic already. There is so much going on in the world that heckling Designer is not so compelling.
> 
> I can hear a southern accent when you write.


Am I drawling? Tell Designer to not heckle me and I will stop taking up for myself.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Am I drawling? Tell Designer to not heckle me and I will stop taking up for myself.


I never heard the expression "taking up". Is it new or old?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> I never heard the expression "taking up". Is it new or old?


I guess old.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I guess old.


What does it actually mean? I am trying to think of a Yankee equivalent - speaking up? protecting? We use 'taking up" to mean to start something new. Example - I am taking up lace knitting.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> What does it actually mean? I am trying to think of a Yankee equivalent - speaking up? protecting? We use 'taking up" to mean to start something new. Example - I am taking up lace knitting.


When no one is on your side you have to take up for yourself. Yes speak up for yourself that is it. How is you sil?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> What does it actually mean? I am trying to think of a Yankee equivalent - speaking up? protecting? We use 'taking up" to mean to start something new. Example - I am taking up lace knitting.


'Taken to task?'


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Of course the expression makes no sense but I like it more for it.

SIL has 'stabilized' in a condition I would only wish for ISIS. Too awful. Thanks for asking.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> Of course the expression makes no sense but I like it more for it.
> 
> SIL has 'stabilized' in a condition I would only wish for ISIS. Too awful. Thanks for asking.


It is dreadful that anyone should go thru that. I hope she is comfortable for now.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I think we need a break -- how about a picture of the
> beautiful beautiful Canadia Rockies. If I wasn't so busy moving , we would have driven to Banff and the Vermilion lakes right in Banff and eaten our lunch and drink in the beauty of Mt. Rundle - such a beautiful mountain, especially when covered with snow.


Marvelous. I think we all needed that.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Notice new avatar


I loved the cheerful homemade cookie with the thumb up. This one came from a box.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh, I want the "brat" back. She was SO cute! Best avatar ever!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I think we need a break -- how about a picture of the
> beautiful beautiful Canadia Rockies. If I wasn't so busy moving , we would have driven to Banff and the Vermilion lakes right in Banff and eaten our lunch and drink in the beauty of Mt. Rundle - such a beautiful mountain, especially when covered with snow.


Beautiful pictures, you live in a wonderful place. I could just sit and let the sheer beauty massage my soul. Mountains, snow and rivers, it must be heaven. Warming up down here, it is supposed to be 32C today, but probably only the high 20s. Summer is near.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Patty said for you not to talk to me.


Excuse me?? No I didn't.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

YAY! The brat's back! I love it! It makes me smile every time I see it.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> Hi Bumps,
> Let us drop this topic already. There is so much going on in the world that heckling Designer is not so compelling.
> 
> I can hear a southern accent when you write.


So what if she has a Southern accent? Don't see you snarking about any other part of the country's way of speaking. Seems you are against Southerners, which is odd since Slick Willy was from her state. Oh I guess New Yorkers are so soft spoken, not loud, not brassy, not crass, and do not use any regional lingo that there is no need to mention that. People from Minnesota have aye. Bostonians have no r's. So why pick on CB's roots?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> So what if she has a Southern accent? Don't see you snarking about any other part of the country's way of speaking. Seems you are against Southerners, which is odd since Slick Willy was from her state. Oh I guess New Yorkers are so soft spoken, not loud, not brassy, not crass, and do not use any regional lingo that there is no need to mention that. People from Minnesota have aye. Bostonians have no r's. So why pick on CB's roots?


A little prickly today? What in the world made you think "I hear a southern accent" was a criticism?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> My Rabbi would not say anything since I don't have one.
> 
> I like her posts because she is a better psychic than I am.


Sorry SQM -- I shouldn't have posted that - I came to an incorrect conclusion. I apologize.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So beautiful! Thanks for sharing the pics. Your thread picture is amazing. I read the post where you explained how you did it. It boggles my mind that you can create such beauty in that manner. You're so creative.


Thankyou -- it is something I spent a lot of time doing and got a lot of joy when I did it. Your words are kind. Are you a quilter?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Excuse me?? No I didn't.


not to worry Patty -- I know you are trying -- but good luck.

I understand that you are trying to be heard but I doubt it will happen. I love your avatar -- it is a really good one.

How is your little one? bet she is growing.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> 'Taken to task?'


In Canada we use it rarely but it means a scolding. Usually just a mild rebuke - but sometimes more serious- another way of expressing it is =putting someone in their place.

I haven't heard it used much though. More when I was a child. (Hundreds of years ago the way I feel right now)! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I did have a good sleep but both of us are sooo ready to get on the road. Just a couple more days.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Of course the expression makes no sense but I like it more for it.
> 
> SIL has 'stabilized' in a condition I would only wish for ISIS. Too awful. Thanks for asking.


I hope you are doing okay -- I know how hard it is when someone we love is very very ill. My thoughts are with you and I hope she is not suffering.

She doesn't live near you if I remember correctly?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> If I'm not mistaken, Shirley, you have referred to CB as somebody you regarded as a friend, or at least somebody you admired for her faith. It stands to reason that you expected her to treat you like a friend. Somehow that never entered her mind.
> 
> It was a hard lesson, but maybe that's how you can regard it.


I have been learning a lot of hard lessons this past week. You are correct but I can't say so here as I will be accused of 'stalking ' again. Nothing I can say -- I will be accused of it forever, so no point in defending myself ( by telling the truth), any more.

Anyway, It is a lovely morning here. I hope the weather holds off for at least another week or so until we finish our drive through the Rockies. I will miss my Beautiful Canadian Rockies but we are going to another beautlful part of my country, so I will have had the best of both worlds.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> What does it actually mean? I am trying to think of a Yankee equivalent - speaking up? protecting? We use 'taking up" to mean to start something new. Example - I am taking up lace knitting.


Sometimes I have heard it used here as 'I understand she is 'taking up' with a new beau or boyfriend' That is all I remember about that phrase. - so it is basically what you are saying - taking up with a new boyfriend, taking up crochet -

starting something?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Thankyou -- it is something I spent a lot of time doing and got a lot of joy when I did it. Your words are kind. Are you a quilter?


I did make a couple of quilts years ago. I never learned the proper way as I couldn't afford to take a class back then. But I just cut out the squares and sewed them together on the machine and then hand quilted them. I made a baby quilt for my youngest son, when I was pregnant with him. He and his wife love it and they use it for Max. I also made a lap quilt for my mil. That was about all because quilting was too expensive for me. I used to do a lot of embroidery and cross stitch. They were more affordable.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Excuse me?? No I didn't.


CB is just being passive-aggressive, trying to blame you for her wanting to tell everyone to shut up (and I don't blame her for wanting to - she's really been picked on, even if she asked for it).

More important: The best avatar on KP (okay, one of the best) makes its comeback!


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> CB is just being passive-aggressive, trying to blame you for her wanting to tell everyone to shut up.
> 
> More important: The best avatar on KP (okay, one of the best) makes its comeback!


Are you a psychic now ? Mind reader. You are not very good at it. :thumbdown:


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> " why aren't we hearing about Boko Haram these days?" I was also wondering about this. There does not seem to be any mention in the papers lately. Is it yesterday's news, therefore gone and forgotten? These girls and their families cannot be forgotten, but what is being done to stop the kidnappings?


I think it's yesterday's news. I think the fact that young women are involved is one element in why we aren't hearing about Boko Haram. Those young women have no value in the places they came from.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Are you a psychic now ? Mind reader. You are not very good at it. :thumbdown:


Not at all, but I'm a pretty good psychotherapist. I've seen it often. BTW, I edited my message; please reread it.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Not at all, but I'm a pretty good psychotherapist. I've seen it often. BTW, I edited my message; please reread it.


 If y'all want me to stop talking to you stop talking about me. An atheist can't go into the mind of a Christian. Impossible.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

May God Bless you all today.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> If y'all want me to stop talking to you stop talking about me. An atheist can't go into the mind of a Christian. Impossible.


I don't want you to stop talking, only to stop preaching. If you have something to add on the subject of "Things are heating up in the world," I'd love to hear what it is.

And I have no desire to "go inside" your mind, even if that were possible. I simply gave a probable reason why you lied and said that Patty told us to stop talking about it. She didn't. (And even if she had, who would listen?)

A lot of atheists were raised as Christians (see DGreen's posts on the subject) and know how to think like them. I don't, but I don't pretend to.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> If y'all want me to stop talking to you stop talking about me. An atheist can't go into the mind of a Christian. Impossible.


No self-respecting atheist would want to go there. It would be easier to swim in a mud puddle.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

DGreen said:


> No self-respecting atheist would want to go there. I'd as soon go swimming in a cesspool.


yuck you mean you would do that? The smell alone would make a person gag.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> yuck you mean you would do that? The smell alone would make a person gag.


Preferable to listening to those who would force their Christianity on me. I find that even smellier. But, to each his own.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Preferable to listening to those who would force their Christianity on me. I find that even smellier. But, to each his own.


Oh I don't believe that and know you would not do that. It is just words.

God Bless you any way.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> If y'all want me to stop talking to you stop talking about me. An atheist can't go into the mind of a Christian. Impossible.


What a lovely fairy tale you have about atheists. If only it were longer.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Oh I don't believe that and know you would not do that. It is just words.
> 
> God Bless you any way.


God Bless you Yarnie.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> No self-respecting atheist would want to go there. It would be easier to swim in a mud puddle.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> yuck you mean you would do that? The smell alone would make a person gag.


That seems to be her point.


----------



## anneevamod (Apr 16, 2011)

Oh my.....I don't know what to say or think. This thread has been painful to read. I'm so sorry anyone here on KP is judging or being nasty to anyone . Let's all just breathe. Everyone is Entitled to their belief and their view points. Respect for all is my belief. No matter what your belief. Hope everyone has a great day. May the spirit fill you.......be it heaven, the great spirits of Native American ancestors, Buddha. Whatever!!!! I just want to send good wishes to all.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I have read the bible--more than once--which is _why_ I am not a believer.[/quote]

I believe that you have that right - and I am a Christian. I am, however not a Christian who accepts the behavior or attitude of some (certainly only 2 or 3) who come on these threads and attack us indiscriminately and also insist on Preaching to us.

I think that what those on these threads who come here and constantly try to change some of us don't realize is, that they are making it more and more logical to pay absolutely no attention to those who insist they need to be saved 'for our own good' God made us with minds - we are quite capable of making our own choices. They never accept that.

believe God gave us brains and we should use them. Our experiences make us who we are.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

anneevamod said:


> Oh my.....I don't know what to say or think. This thread has been painful to read. I'm so sorry anyone here on KP is judging or being nasty to anyone . Let's all just breathe. Everyone is Entitled to their belief and their view points. Respect for all is my belief. No matter what your belief. Hope everyone has a great day. May the spirit fill you.......be it heaven, the great spirits of Native American ancestors, Buddha. Whatever!!!! I just want to send good wishes to all.


Thankyou - I applaud your post.


----------



## anneevamod (Apr 16, 2011)

I was thinking about something that happened to me as a child. When I came to America it was not customary for Americans to pierce their children's ears. In my culture it is a custom to pierce them immediately after birth (girls). I remember.being at a girlfriends home and being asked if my parents were barbarian or savages. I looked these words up and was embarrassed to think anyone would think such a thought. I was little and had cute tiny gold studs in my ears. I wonder if that family now has grandchildren with tattoos and multiple piercings? I still only have my two . Isn't it sad to judge others according to our beliefs? What might be right for one isn't necessarily wrong or evil for another. Just saying....PEACE


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> So what if she has a Southern accent? Don't see you snarking about any other part of the country's way of speaking. Seems you are against Southerners, which is odd since Slick Willy was from her state. Oh I guess New Yorkers are so soft spoken, not loud, not brassy, not crass, and do not use any regional lingo that there is no need to mention that. People from Minnesota have aye. Bostonians have no r's. So why pick on CB's roots?


Boy are you stupid! I think you need to get some...education on regional accents. Bostonians do use 'R's". No Minnesotan that I have met in the 30 years I have lived here say "aye". 
You are bringing Slick Willy into things a lot lately. Could it be that you are jealous of Monica? I think so.
New Yorkers have many accents. Brooklyn is different from Manhattan. Syracuse and Buffalo are different from NYC and Brooklyn. 
Keep trying to appear intelligent. Try really hard for the sake of those who have to read your garbage.
Y'all have a nice day now, heah?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> A little prickly today? What in the world made you think "I hear a southern accent" was a criticism?


She's prickly everyday. It's just her personality, D.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> She's prickly everyday. It's just her personality, D.


And she only answers when she can attack or deliver what she thinks is a clever "zinger." Oh well.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

changed my mind


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Boy are you stupid! I think you need to get some...education on regional accents. Bostonians do use 'R's". No Minnesotan that I have met in the 30 years I have lived here say "aye".
> You are bringing Slick Willy into things a lot lately. Could it be that you are jealous of Monica? I think so.
> New Yorkers have many accents. Brooklyn is different from Manhattan. Syracuse and Buffalo are different from NYC and Brooklyn.
> Keep trying to appear intelligent. Try really hard for the sake of those who have to read your garbage.
> Y'all have a nice day now, heah?


Thanks Brat. Lakes wrote that post to me and I decided it was best to ignore it especially since I speak Chicago and that was not on the hit list. Bumps and I pm'ed and had a fun chat about our accents. All is well.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> Thanks Brat. Lakes wrote that post to me and I decided it was best to ignore it especially since I speak Chicago and that was not on the hit list. Bumps and I pm'ed and had a fun chat about our accents. All is well.


Good! Now if LTL would go gnaw on a side of beef for a few days, all will be well in here too.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> What a lovely fairy tale you have about atheists. If only it were longer.


If only it were quieter.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

anneevamod said:


> Oh my.....I don't know what to say or think. This thread has been painful to read. I'm so sorry anyone here on KP is judging or being nasty to anyone . Let's all just breathe. Everyone is Entitled to their belief and their view points. Respect for all is my belief. No matter what your belief. Hope everyone has a great day. May the spirit fill you.......be it heaven, the great spirits of Native American ancestors, Buddha. Whatever!!!! I just want to send good wishes to all.


Thanks for trying. Good wishes right back at you.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

anneevamod said:


> I was thinking about something that happened to me as a child. When I came to America it was not customary for Americans to pierce their children's ears. In my culture it is a custom to pierce them immediately after birth (girls). I remember.being at a girlfriends home and being asked if my parents were barbarian or savages. I looked these words up and was embarrassed to think anyone would think such a thought. I was little and had cute tiny gold studs in my ears. I wonder if that family now has grandchildren with tattoos and multiple piercings? I still only have my two . Isn't it sad to judge others according to our beliefs? What might be right for one isn't necessarily wrong or evil for another. Just saying....PEACE


Wise words. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Good! Now if LTL would go gnaw on a side of beef for a few days, all will be well in here too.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

anneevamod said:


> I was thinking about something that happened to me as a child. When I came to America it was not customary for Americans to pierce their children's ears. In my culture it is a custom to pierce them immediately after birth (girls). I remember.being at a girlfriends home and being asked if my parents were barbarian or savages. I looked these words up and was embarrassed to think anyone would think such a thought. I was little and had cute tiny gold studs in my ears. I wonder if that family now has grandchildren with tattoos and multiple piercings? I still only have my two . Isn't it sad to judge others according to our beliefs? What might be right for one isn't necessarily wrong or evil for another. Just saying....PEACE


The two messages you left here were the most thoughtful we've had in a while.

How sad that adults would ask children a question like that, no matter how ignorant they (the adults) were. They were the barbarians. Ear-piercing is not uncommon in many cultures.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

45,000 Syrian Kurds cross border into Turkey to escape ISIS:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/09/thousands-syrian-kurds-flee-isil-advance-201492082010981567.html


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

anneevamod said:


> I was thinking about something that happened to me as a child. When I came to America it was not customary for Americans to pierce their children's ears. In my culture it is a custom to pierce them immediately after birth (girls). I remember.being at a girlfriends home and being asked if my parents were barbarian or savages. I looked these words up and was embarrassed to think anyone would think such a thought. I was little and had cute tiny gold studs in my ears. I wonder if that family now has grandchildren with tattoos and multiple piercings? I still only have my two . Isn't it sad to judge others according to our beliefs? What might be right for one isn't necessarily wrong or evil for another. Just saying....PEACE


When I was in early primary school, we had quite a number of Italian girls in our class, all with pierced ears. My mother always loved to remind me how I begged for my ears to be pierced too. I finally did get them pierced as an adult and earrings are by far my favourite type of jewellery.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Oh my gosh!


Country Bumpkins
You are getting extremely unkind. Sometime ago I predicted that your "niceness" was just a cover and the real you would eventually emerge and here you are. Mrs. Nasty in living color.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> The two messages you left here were the most thoughtful we've had in a while.
> 
> How sad that adults would ask children a question like that, no matter how ignorant they (the adults) were. They were the barbarians. Ear-piercing is not uncommon in many cultures.


Poor Purl
there is no fix for stupid.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Hello, Huck!!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> 45,000 Syrian Kurds cross border into Turkey to escape ISIS:
> 
> http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/09/thousands-syrian-kurds-flee-isil-advance-201492082010981567.html


The first thing I wondered was, how many isis fighters were there? 45,000 people fled in one day! The article said about only 18 isis fighters were killed. But doesn't mention the size of either force, or how many Kurds were killed. I'd read that in Mosul, over 30,000 Iraqi troops ran away from 800 members of Isis. It seems to me that at some point, the people need to stop running and stand their ground.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I like this. France is ditching the "Islamic state" name, and replacing it with a label the group hates, "Daesh". They say they won't recognize them as a state. I propose we do the same.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/09/17/france-is-ditching-the-islamic-state-name-and-replacing-it-with-a-label-the-group-hates/


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The first thing I wondered was, how many isis fighters were there? 45,000 people fled in one day! The article said about only 18 isis fighters were killed. But doesn't mention the size of either force, or how many Kurds were killed. I'd read that in Mosul, over 30,000 Iraqi troops ran away from 800 members of Isis. It seems to me that at some point, the people need to stop running and stand their ground.


How can they? They're unarmed, peaceful people going about their day and all of a sudden the dogs of war descend upon them, snatching their women and girls and try to kill as many of them as possible. They don't stand a chance.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> How can they? They're unarmed, peaceful people going about their day and all of a sudden the dogs of war descend upon them, snatching their women and girls and try to kill as many of them as possible. They don't stand a chance.


Are you sure they're unarmed? I was going to make this point the other day re the Iraqis, but after doing the research, I found that most Iraqis have guns. So, I'm not sure about the Syrians but with all of the warring there, you'd think they'd be armed.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Found this, 750,000 privately owned guns in Syria. So apparently its allowed.
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/syria


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Found this, 750,000 privately owned guns in Syria. So apparently its allowed.
> http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/syria


A different perspective - that is only 3.9 per 100 people according to Wikipedia.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Poor Purl
> there is no fix for stupid.


Hi, Huck.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> A different perspective - that is only 3.9 per 100 people according to Wikipedia.


I'll bet they wish more people had them, now.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Well ladies, I just have tomorrow on line and we are going to be out most of it and still have some final packing to do. Actually I am not sad at leaving the threads for a week or two after my adventures this past couple of days. I see no way it is going to stop so will have to decide what I can do or whether I want to deal with the nastiness and accusations or just give it up. I hate to do that as I believe in what this group stands for so I likely will decide to come back. I am very tired and have been very down this past while. 

You are all my friends and I thank you for your support. 

Our TV's, Computer and phones will be turned off early on MOnday and the movers come early Tuesday morning- we leave as soon as they do and hope to have a quiet, nice drive through the rockies. We will take our time and hope to be there sometime later on in the week. 

I hope you all take care of yourselves and don't let those who attack, and preach, get you down. I hope that things get less nasty when I am out of sight. I don't believe in one case it is ever going to end and am not sure what I should do about it. Possibly stay away - I have to decide if it is worth it. 

I might find a few minutes tomorrow but am not sure. Take care all. If I don't get a chance to say goodbye I am saying it now. hope to see you in a week or two.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Good luck with your move and I hope everything goes smoothly for you.

Please do not leave us for good, we need you here, you are one of our living treasures as the Japanese would say. Do not let them beat you. Have a break and enjoy some time in nature if you can. Nature soothes the soul.

I look forward to reading your posts when you are settled and revitalised. Hope the move is not too stressful for your husband.

Talking of nature, they say we are in for bad weather today and it is not far away. It is getting dark and I can smell a storm coming. It has been very windy but it is very, very quiet at the moment. No movement at all outside, so birds singing either. It was 34.6C yesterday, the hottest September day for 96 years.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Have a safe journey, Designer. Enjoy the beauty.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Well ladies, I just have tomorrow on line and we are going to be out most of it and still have some final packing to do. Actually I am not sad at leaving the threads for a week or two after my adventures this past couple of days. I see no way it is going to stop so will have to decide what I can do or whether I want to deal with the nastiness and accusations or just give it up. I hate to do that as I believe in what this group stands for so I likely will decide to come back. I am very tired and have been very down this past while.
> 
> You are all my friends and I thank you for your support.
> 
> ...


In case I'm not around tomorrow, Shirley, I'll take the chance now to wish you well in your move. I hope it all goes smoothly, and the trip is an easy one.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Well ladies, I just have tomorrow on line and we are going to be out most of it and still have some final packing to do. Actually I am not sad at leaving the threads for a week or two after my adventures this past couple of days. I see no way it is going to stop so will have to decide what I can do or whether I want to deal with the nastiness and accusations or just give it up. I hate to do that as I believe in what this group stands for so I likely will decide to come back. I am very tired and have been very down this past while.
> 
> You are all my friends and I thank you for your support.
> 
> ...


Hi, Shirley! Take it easy and enjoy the ride. Soak in the scenery and take some pics for us. Once you get there, don't try to get everything done at once. Take your time. This move will be so good for you, being close to family. We'll be thinking of you and we WILL talk to you soon! You've more friends here than enemies. We'll be here! Ttyl!
Nan


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Have a safe and pleasant trip, Shirley. Take things one at a time and enjoy seeing your family. Yes, please send pics!
Hugs,
Patty


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Well ladies, I just have tomorrow on line and we are going to be out most of it and still have some final packing to do. Actually I am not sad at leaving the threads for a week or two after my adventures this past couple of days. I see no way it is going to stop so will have to decide what I can do or whether I want to deal with the nastiness and accusations or just give it up. I hate to do that as I believe in what this group stands for so I likely will decide to come back. I am very tired and have been very down this past while.
> 
> You are all my friends and I thank you for your support.
> 
> ...


Best wishes for the move Designer.

Things won't change on these threads even if everyone ignored the fanatics. And I would sincerely hope that you remain who you are: someone who is intelligent, has valid and interesting opinions and who positively contributes to these threads. Pity the same can't be said about the fanatics. :evil:


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Thanks to all of you. You are friends. I doubt I could leave -- I have never turned tail and run and don't really want to now. It has been a hard 6 months with the worry about my sister and all the medical tests. We are nearly there and once we are settled I know we will like the place we will be living. I love the coast of BC after living in Vancouver for many years when Pat was in the army. 

I know that once we are settled I will be feeling better physically and will be able to rest up. Once again, thank you all for your constant support of this Canadian who happens to love your country. Take care and keep up the good work and the use of your intelligent thought, which is the reason I stay as you are interesting, wonderful people and I applaud you all for hanging in there all these years. S


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Have a safe and pleasant trip, Shirley. Take things one at a time and enjoy seeing your family. Yes, please send pics!
> Hugs,
> Patty


That is a promise Patty -- I admire you very much and you are a good friend.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Back at you, girlfriend


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Bon voyage Shirley. I hope the move goes smoothly and the cable guy shows up on time.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The first thing I wondered was, how many isis fighters were there? 45,000 people fled in one day! The article said about only 18 isis fighters were killed. But doesn't mention the size of either force, or how many Kurds were killed. I'd read that in Mosul, over 30,000 Iraqi troops ran away from 800 members of Isis. It seems to me that at some point, the people need to stop running and stand their ground.


This was my first thought too.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for the perspective.



DGreen said:


> A different perspective - that is only 3.9 per 100 people according to Wikipedia.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Thanks Brat. Lakes wrote that post to me and I decided it was best to ignore it especially since I speak Chicago and that was not on the hit list. Bumps and I pm'ed and had a fun chat about our accents. All is well.


Good for you.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Bon voyage Shirley. I hope the move goes smoothly and the cable guy shows up on time.


Thanks - he comes tomorrow. sure hope the movers come up on time. We want to get a good way through the Rockies so hope to leave around noon. Thanks for the good wishes.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> When I was in early primary school, we had quite a number of Italian girls in our class, all with pierced ears. My mother always loved to remind me how I begged for my ears to be pierced too. I finally did get them pierced as an adult and earrings are by far my favourite type of jeweler.


When I was in high school it was a big fad for us girls to get pierced ears. Most of the time we did it to each other. We did this quite sanitarily, and it was a lot of fun. We also made a lot of the earrings we had. I made a lot of earrings and pierced a lot of ears.

I knew my father would have a giant fit if he saw mine. I had long hair and hid my ears. One day he actually saw what I'd done and went on a rant about it, insisted I take my earrings out, and told me could have pierced ears when I was 18. 18 was the magic age when I'd be allowed several things, such as no longer having a curfew. Of course, on my 18th birthday I pierced my ears and stayed out until 3am with a bunch of friends.

Ah, youth. (And my Dad was a great father, perhaps a bit too strict, but better that than a father who was too lax.)


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I like this. France is ditching the "Islamic state" name, and replacing it with a label the group hates, "Daesh". They say they won't recognize them as a state. I propose we do the same.
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/09/17/france-is-ditching-the-islamic-state-name-and-replacing-it-with-a-label-the-group-hates/


"Daesh" seems like the perfect word to use when referring to ISIS or ISIL or whatever they want to call themselves. I like the addition of "cutthroats", too. So let us all now call them "The Daesh Cutthroats".


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> Oh I don't believe that and know you would not do that. It is just words.
> 
> God Bless you any way.


The result of proselytizing is to convert people to Christianity. Proselytizers can be disgustingly persistent, to the extent that they actually do seem to be trying to force Christianity on those they target to rant and rave at.

As a pretty dedicated Christian, I believe people will become Christians all on their own, a far more reliable conversion. Blasphemous as it may be, I don't believe God wants people who have to be harassed into becoming Christian.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> *The result of proselytizing is to convert people to Christianity.* Proselytizers can be disgustingly persistent, to the extent that they actually do seem to be trying to force Christianity on those they target to rant and rave at.
> 
> As a pretty dedicated Christian, I believe people will become Christians all on their own, a far more reliable conversion. Blasphemous as it may be, I don't believe God wants people who have to be harassed into becoming Christian.


I think you mean "the desired result" (or "the aim" ). The forced conversions don't turn out well (see The Spanish Inquisition).


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> The result of proselytizing is to convert people to Christianity. Proselytizers can be disgustingly persistent, to the extent that they actually do seem to be trying to force Christianity on those they target to rant and rave at.
> 
> As a pretty dedicated Christian, I believe people will become Christians all on their own, a far more reliable conversion. Blasphemous as it may be, I don't believe God wants people who have to be harassed into becoming Christian.


Very wise.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:



> I think you mean "the desired result" (or "the aim" ). The forced conversions don't turn out well (see The Spanish Inquisition).


A sad part of history for the Catholic Church. Where have all the flowers gone? We haven't learned much. Ask the Ayatollah.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> The result of proselytizing is to convert people to Christianity. Proselytizers can be disgustingly persistent, to the extent that they actually do seem to be trying to force Christianity on those they target to rant and rave at.
> 
> As a pretty dedicated Christian, I believe people will become Christians all on their own, a far more reliable conversion. Blasphemous as it may be, I don't believe God wants people who have to be harassed into becoming Christian.


Why would that be blasphemous? Is coerced conversion a sacred christian doctrine? Today, not historically, of course.

Your message is generous and tolerant, Maid. Thank you.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Why would that be blasphemous? Is coerced conversion a sacred christian doctrine? Today, not historically, of course.
> 
> Your message is generous and tolerant, Maid. Thank you.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I think you mean "the desired result" (or "the aim" ). The forced conversions don't turn out well (see The Spanish Inquisition).


Yes, that's what I meant, though it does seem to me that some proselytizers fully believe their efforts will actually result in an instant conversion.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Why would that be blasphemous? Is coerced conversion a sacred christian doctrine? Today, not historically, of course.
> 
> Your message is generous and tolerant, Maid. Thank you.


It's probably not officially blasphemous, but I think some Christians believe that conversion to Christianity as a result of listening to a proselytizer is as good as someone becoming a Christian as the result of personal conviction.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> It's probably not officially blasphemous, but I think some Christians believe that conversion to Christianity as a result of listening to a proselytizer is as good as someone becoming a Christian as the result of personal conviction.


Very astute observation.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

The link below is a chilling account of how events unfolded prior to the 'terror raids' carried out in Sydney, Australia on Thursday last week.

Apparently, a random beheading in Sydney was just days away:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/how-surveillance-may-have-stopped-a-sydney-beheading/story-fni0cx12-1227064478285

New terror counter-measure laws will be introduced in the Australian Parliament this week, giving police and ASIO officers greater powers:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/new-antiterror-laws-will-gag-hate-preachers-and-give-asio-agents-licence-to-kill-in-self-defence/story-fni0cx12-1227065138529


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> The link below is a chilling account of how events unfolded prior to the 'terror raids' carried out in Sydney, Australia on Thursday last week.
> 
> Apparently, a random beheading in Sydney was just days away:
> 
> ...


I posted this on Current Events yesterday, Sunday, but I do not think it is illegal to post it here. I find it scarey that people can still get their ideas out even when confined to Supermax prison.

*Terrorists urge jihad from jail*: report
AAP Sunday 21 September 2014 06:25:48 AM

Convicted terrorists are using coded messages to continue jihadi activities from inside Australia's most secure prison, Goulburn Supermax, it's been reported.
Senior corrections officials say they fear some of Australia's most dangerous inmates are capable of plotting acts of terror from inside jail because of serious security gaps, News Corp Australia reported on Sunday.
Despite being on the strictest AA classification, introduced in 2008 especially for terrorists, the inmates are free to communicate with the outside world through letters, phone calls, family visits and messages sent through other inmates they come in contact with.
They are kept in isolation but that means nothing in jail, a high-ranking former official said.
He said the inmates' mail was scrutinised and sent to ASIO, but there was still a risk.
A corrective services Custody and Sentence Planning report says some AA inmates are recruiting others to terrorism while some are commanded to attempt escape.
News Corp said prison sources claim the inmates can communicate jihadist messages by using a prepared code, while the report makes mention of an al-Qaeda training manual outlining prison behaviour.
A Corrective Services spokesperson said the department did not release information on the management of AA prisoners for security reasons.

http://www.news.net/article/1957130/Top+Stories/?referid=114


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I posted this on Current Events yesterday, Sunday, but I do not think it is illegal to post it here. I find it scarey that people can still get their ideas out even when confined to Supermax prison.
> 
> *Terrorists urge jihad from jail*: report
> AAP Sunday 21 September 2014 06:25:48 AM
> ...


Thank you and wombatnomore for information. US news channels barely mention the terrorist threat you are facing in Oz. Makes my blood run cold.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Thank you and wombatnomore for information. US news channels barely mention the terrorist threat you are facing in Oz. Makes my blood run cold.


We are a pretty with it bunch down here in OZ.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> We are a pretty with it bunch down here in OZ.


As you may know, I have a particular fondness for Aussies. I had a long-term, serious relationship with an Aussie and had the pleasure of meeting many from Oz at various social gatherings and Anzac (did I get the name right?) events. Never met an Aussie I didn't like.

Sadly, Jeff died last year. I miss his friendship and wonderful humor and intelligence - he was one of a kind and Australian to the core.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Thank you and wombatnomore for information. US news channels barely mention the terrorist threat you are facing in Oz. Makes my blood run cold.


You are most welcome Green!

It is chilling finding out what has been going on behind the scenes. They've got the ministerial wing of Parliament House in Canberra in lockdown now due to 'chatter' picked up by intelligence officers. Don't know the details yet. :|


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I posted this on Current Events yesterday, Sunday, but I do not think it is illegal to post it here. I find it scarey that people can still get their ideas out even when confined to Supermax prison.
> 
> *Terrorists urge jihad from jail*: report
> AAP Sunday 21 September 2014 06:25:48 AM
> ...


This is very concerning but not surprising. They're able to get drugs and other paraphernalia also, sometimes through the prison guards. Nothing is infallible.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Latest confirmed message from ISIL to the 'non-believers'

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/09/22/17/21/terror-group-urges-kill-australians


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Latest confirmed message from ISIL to the 'non-believers'
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/09/22/17/21/terror-group-urges-kill-australians


This all sounds so crazy to me, and then I remember how crazy Hitler sounded. Crazy or not, it's something to worry about.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> This all sounds so crazy to me, and then I remember how crazy Hitler sounded. Crazy or not, it's something to worry about.


What worries me is Abbott saying the Aussies will have to trade their freedoms for security. That is very chilling. My bro the Historian says the US is the most aggressive country on the planet. I am conflicted about all of this.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Thank you and wombatnomore for information. US news channels barely mention the terrorist threat you are facing in Oz. Makes my blood run cold.


And the Secret Service lets a person slip in the front door of the White House here.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sorry you lost a dear friend.



DGreen said:


> As you may know, I have a particular fondness for Aussies. I had a long-term, serious relationship with an Aussie and had the pleasure of meeting many from Oz at various social gatherings and Anzac (did I get the name right?) events. Never met an Aussie I didn't like.
> 
> Sadly, Jeff died last year. I miss his friendship and wonderful humor and intelligence - he was one of a kind and Australian to the core.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> What worries me is Abbott saying the Aussies will have to trade their freedoms for security. That is very chilling. My bro the Historian says the US is the most aggressive country on the planet. I am conflicted about all of this.


I agree with you regarding Aussies trading freedoms for security. But remember Tony and the Liberals have only been in power for one year and they are keen to make themselves heard and seen on the international stage. Also, remember that they still have not had all the harsh measures that they introduced in their May budget passed through the Senate. I think a lot of Tony's grandstanding is to deflect criticism from the harsh measures in Joe Hockey's budget. Joe Hockey is the Federal Treasurer.

You may have missed what John Howard said the other day. He was the Prime Minister in 1993 when we followed the US into the Iraq war. John Howard apologised for committing troops to the war, admitting that the stories about weapons of mass destruction were not true.

PS sorry I made a mistake above, I should have said John Howard was embarrassed, he did not apologise. But he could not resist having a dig at Julia Gillard, our first female Prime Minister, and a Labor Party member. He says " Julia Gillard had "no authority" because of her involvement in replacing Kevin Rudd as Labor leader." He did not say the same thing about Malcolm Fraser who had the Governor General dismiss Whitlam as Prime Minister in 1975 and appoint Malcolm as PM. Whitlam was Labor Party and Fraser was Liberal Party.

John Howard also dismissed Ms Gillard's so-called misogyny speech in October 2012 as "nonsense". His statement that "while the speech in Parliament attacking Mr Abbott and sexism attracted a lot of media attention, it failed to resonate with women" is not true, women everywhere applauded the speech. Sour grapes John, you not only lost the election in 2007 you also lost your seat in the Federal Parliament. You are now a former Prime Minister, you are no longer a member of the Federal Parliament.

Howard 'embarrassed' by Iraq WMD intelligence
By ABC
ABC AUSTRALIA Monday 22 September 2014 07:36:01 AM 
Former prime minister John Howard says he is "embarrassed" he took Australia to war in Iraq on the false suspicion it harboured weapons of mass destruction, but denies it was a "deliberate deception".
In an interview broadcast on the Seven Network, Mr Howard said he and the then National Security Committee of Cabinet in 2003 sent Australian troops into Iraq because they believed American intelligence that Saddam Hussein posed a threat to a West.
"I was struck by the force of the language used in the American national intelligence assessment late in November 2002," he said.
"It brought together all the American intelligence and paragraph after paragraph, they said, we judge Iraq had weapons of mass destruction."
However, he said as evidence emerged that there were no weapons of mass destruction, he sought to explain the government's decision.
"I felt embarrassed. I couldn't believe it, because I had genuinely believed it," he told interviewer Janet Albrechtsen.
"So, I felt embarrassed and I did my best to explain ... that it wasn't a deliberate deception."
Mr Howard denied the conflict - led by United States and Britain - sowed the seeds for the formation of militant group Islamic State (IS), which has since seized control of large swathes of Iraq and Syria.
"If you're seeking to locate the responsibility specifically to the 2003 invasion, let me put it to you that Syria was not involved in any outside military operation, but more than 200,000 have died in the Syrian civil war," he said.
"And so much of the Islamic State operation comes out of what's occurring in Syria and to suggest that it's purely or predominately a result of what happened in Iraq in 2003 is a false reading of history."
US president Barack Obama last month launched strikes against IS targets in Iraq and has foreshadowed the formation of a multi-national coalition to "destroy" the brutal Sunni militant group.
Australia has supported US efforts by delivering humanitarian and military aid to Iraqis under siege by IS fighters and sent fighter jets and about 600 troops, including special forces soldiers, to the Middle East to prepare for possible deployment in coming weeks.
Authorities last week said they had uncovered a plot by IS-linked operatives to abduct and execute a "random member of the public" from the Sydney streets.
Mr Howard said the threat to Australia of terrorism by Islamic extremists was "very real" but advised against using that as a justification for slowing the rate of Muslim integration.
Mr Howard, who was prime minister from 1996 to 2007, also took aim at the trouble that plagued the Labor government after he was ousted from office.
He said former Labor prime minister Julia Gillard had "no authority" because of her involvement in replacing Kevin Rudd as Labor leader.
"Having done the extraordinary thing in participating in removing a first-term prime minster and then not to win the subsequent election, meant she never had authority," he said.
"She never exercised authority because she had to validate her extraordinary participation in an extraordinary act."
He also dismissed Ms Gillard's so-called misogyny speech in October 2012 as "nonsense".
"The idea that Tony Abbott is anti-women is ridiculous. Just quite wrong," he said.
"I think it's the worst possible way of promoting a greater involvement by women in public life and something that I support, we should have more women in Parliament ... is to play the misogyny card.
"And so many women of ability I know in the community poured scorn on that."
Mr Howard said while the speech in Parliament attacking Mr Abbott and sexism attracted a lot of media attention, it failed to resonate with women.
An interview with Ms Gillard, who is releasing her memoirs next month, will air on the Nine Network this week.
http://www.news.net/article/1965719/howard-embarrassed-by-iraq-wmd-intelligence


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Howard's apology is too too late. I think all the countries knew Iraq was bullshit but their arms were twisted by Cheney and Halliburton - the winners of that war. 
Do you and the rest of the citizens on KP from Oz sound like Channel 9?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> What worries me is Abbott saying the Aussies will have to trade their freedoms for security. That is very chilling. My bro the Historian says the US is the most aggressive country on the planet. I am conflicted about all of this.


Your bro is correct.

Trading freedom for security after 9-1-1 is what gave us the NSA and vast banks of computers, storing our personal lives.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Your bro is correct.
> 
> Trading freedom for security after 9-1-1 is what gave us the NSA and vast banks of computers, storing our personal lives.


And with all our passwords on computers getting hacked into regularly now. Now I have to change all my passwords.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> Howard's apology is too too late. I think all the countries knew Iraq was bullshit but their arms were twisted by Cheney and Halliburton - the winners of that war.
> Do you and the rest of the citizens on KP from Oz sound like Channel 9?


I do not know, I do not watch channel 9. I cannot get the free to air TV stations on my TV set. My set is analogue and TV has switched to digital. I receive the digital signals through the Foxtel IQ set top box but of course Foxtel does not pick up the Australian free to air channels.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Changed my mind.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Latest confirmed message from ISIL to the 'non-believers'
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/09/22/17/21/terror-group-urges-kill-australians


The thing that struck me first, was the caption under the first set of photos. "September 22, 2014: Prime Minister Tony Abbott has warned Australians that the balance between freedom and security may have to shift in order to protect us from a terror attack."

I know I'll be called a conspiracy theorist but this is exactly what happened in the US. They USED 911 to take away out rights with the Patriot Acts I and II and the National Defense Authorization Act (ndaa). We should all be aware of those who train and finance the terrorists and then want to take away OUR rights! No law that takes away our rights, will keep us safe from terrorists. It will only take away our rights and give those very elite more control over us.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> The link below is a chilling account of how events unfolded prior to the 'terror raids' carried out in Sydney, Australia on Thursday last week.
> 
> Apparently, a random beheading in Sydney was just days away:
> 
> ...


The first article mentioned that the terrorists were meeting in Turkey. It surprises me that Turkey isn't doing anything to stop that. Turkey seems to support the daesh. Im also surprised the US isnt leaning on Turkey. Here's an article.
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/09/15/does-the-us-have-allies-it-needs-to-fight-isis/turkey-should-be-the-strongest-ally-against-isis-but-it-wont-be


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> What worries me is Abbott saying the Aussies will have to trade their freedoms for security. That is very chilling. My bro the Historian says the US is the most aggressive country on the planet. I am conflicted about all of this.


Exactly!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> And the Secret Service lets a person slip in the front door of the White House here.


Makes you wonder, doesn't it?


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Makes you wonder, doesn't it?


Knitter from Nebraska
that would not be the only Enemy close to our President, would it! There are hundreds who have no problem showing their nasty attitudes and I am quite sure hope to entice others to do some dirty work for them. Those are the folks to fear most.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

IMO, it all starts with removing individual rights. Later nations will lose their sovereignty and individuals won't be able to stop it, because they will have already lost their rights.

The masses will accept the new world order just to stop the wars. Here's a relevant quote from Henry Kissinger.

"Today Americans would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will pledge with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world government." 
- Henry Kissinger in an address to the Bilderberger meeting at Evian, France, May 21, 1992.

(in an address to the Bilderberger organization meeting at Evian, France, on May 21, 1991. As transcribed from a tape recording made by one of the Swiss delegates. )


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> that would not be the only Enemy close to our President, would it! There are hundreds who have no problem showing their nasty attitudes and I am quite sure hope to entice others to do some dirty work for them. Those are the folks to fear most.


Or maybe... they LET the guy get that close. The president had already left and was in no danger. Perhaps, they have an agenda. I do not believe that anybody could just walk right up to the whitehouse unless they let him. They're probably going to use it to take away some of our rights.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

I think that regardless of the fear mongering, the impingement on our freedoms, the invisible elite and the lies we've been told (i.e., weapons of mass destruction), there is a real threat from a group of individuals (whether constructed by the powers that be or not), who are determined to wreak horror and terror in the cities and suburbs of our nations. And they will, that's a given. You only have to reflect on what was inflicted on Lee Rigby the British Soldier, and the captive journalists and aid worker to understand the brand of terror we face now.

We're told to go about our daily lives, but to accept the fact that some of our freedoms will be lost in order to ensure a modicum of safety.

The question is, how does one process all of this and responsibly prepare psychologically?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I think that regardless of the fear mongering, the impingement on our freedoms, the invisible elite and the lies we've been told (i.e., weapons of mass destruction), there is a real threat from a group of individuals (whether constructed by the powers that be or not), who are determined to wreak horror and terror in the cities and suburbs of our nations. And they will, that's a given. You only have to reflect on what was inflicted on Lee Rigby the British Soldier, and the captive journalists and aid worker to understand the brand of terror we face now.
> 
> We're told to go about our daily lives, but to accept the fact that some of our freedoms will be lost in order to ensure a modicum of safety.
> 
> The question is, how does one process all of this and responsibly prepare psychologically?


IMO, you learn as much as you can. You examine the circumstances and decide what you can do about any of it. The things you have no control over? You just let them go. It's one thing to be aware of your surroundings and the people around you, when you go out. It's another thing to be afraid to go out. You can imagine scenarios to judge what actions you should take, ahead of time. For example, if there were a mall shooting, where should I go and what should I do. Be aware of exits. That way, you will be prepared to act, instead of freezing in fear. Sometimes, being aware of the circumstances can help you to act safely. Otherwise, it's luck of the draw. So be it.

I also pray for awareness and safety, but I understand that not all would. It calms me and gives me peace for whatever is to come.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Do you and the rest of the citizens on KP from Oz sound like Channel 9?


 :XD:

Yes, and we all have Ray Martin haircuts!


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Latest confirmed message from ISIL to the 'non-believers'
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/09/22/17/21/terror-group-urges-kill-australians


I saw this "announcement" on our news at noon today. I had such a feeling of fear in my stomach as I listened to the news reporter. Fear is what the "crazies" want us to feel & I realize we must not be afraid of the "crazies". However, fear is a natural & human emotion. I sat in my kitchen & I prayed ( I am not starting up the response we had last week re Christians & non Christians alike) We must pray that our leaders make the right decision to keep our beloved countries safe, free from the "crazies" who want to destroy us. May God bless us and keep us safe from "evil".


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Leader of Boko Haram believed to have been killed:

http://news.vice.com/article/boko-haram-leader-abubakar-shekau-reported-killed-again-this-time-by-cameroons-army

*Deal has been struck to release 219 kidnapped girls*

http://thenationonlineng.net/new/boko-haram-to-free-219-chibok-girls-in-swap-deal/


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

georgethefifth said:


> I saw this "announcement" on our news at noon today. I had such a feeling of fear in my stomach as I listened to the news reporter. Fear is what the "crazies" want us to feel & I realize we must not be afraid of the "crazies". However, fear is a natural & human emotion. I sat in my kitchen & I prayed ( I am not starting up the response we had last week re Christians & non Christians alike) We must pray that our leaders make the right decision to keep our beloved countries safe, free from the "crazies" who want to destroy us. May God bless us and keep us safe from "evil".


IMO that ship has sailed. Australia is certainly accommodating 'crazies' and I read today that the Netherlands has had to react in a similar way to Australia over the last week due to their resident 'crazies.'

But then, 'evil' has always resided among us. What's new?


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, it all starts with removing individual rights. Later nations will lose their sovereignty and individuals won't be able to stop it, because they will have already lost their rights.
> 
> The masses will accept the new world order just to stop the wars. Here's a relevant quote from Henry Kissinger.
> 
> ...


This is the goal of the UN. They want a global government and thinks this will eliminate inequality. They are slowly doing it through different treaties. A recent push is against gun ownership of citizens. Kissinger has it right.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> What worries me is Abbott saying the Aussies will have to trade their freedoms for security. That is very chilling. My bro the Historian says the US is the most aggressive country on the planet. I am conflicted about all of this.


Isn't that how we got the Patriot Act forced on us?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Or maybe... they LET the guy get that close. The president had already left and was in no danger. Perhaps, they have an agenda. I do not believe that anybody could just walk right up to the whitehouse unless they let him. They're probably going to use it to take away some of our rights.


We still have rights for them to take away?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Or maybe... they LET the guy get that close. The president had already left and was in no danger. Perhaps, they have an agenda. I do not believe that anybody could just walk right up to the whitehouse unless they let him. They're probably going to use it to take away some of our rights.


I adore other paranoids who think like I do. It was fishy that with all the Secret Service men and dogs that 2 guys made it so close to the front door of the White House. Is this the excuse the WH needs to turn it into a bunker, really knowing of some serious attack against the US is in the works? What do you think?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Isn't that how we got the Patriot Act forced on us?


Yes, ma'am.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

In this article, more of the actual message by IS is published. It describes President Obama being a 'mule for...'

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/islamic-state-followers-urged-to-attack-australians-by-any-means-possible-20140922-10kg74.html


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> This is very concerning but not surprising. They're able to get drugs and other paraphernalia also, sometimes through the prison guards. Nothing is infallible.


Unfortunately, this has been going on in our prisons for decades. Anyone and anything can be bought or sold.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, you learn as much as you can. You examine the circumstances and decide what you can do about any of it. The things you have no control over? You just let them go. It's one thing to be aware of your surroundings and the people around you, when you go out. It's another thing to be afraid to go out. You can imagine scenarios to judge what actions you should take, ahead of time. For example, if there were a mall shooting, where should I go and what should I do. Be aware of exits. That way, you will be prepared to act, instead of freezing in fear. Sometimes, being aware of the circumstances can help you to act safely. Otherwise, it's luck of the draw. So be it.
> 
> I also pray for awareness and safety, but I understand that not all would. It calms me and gives me peace for whatever is to come.


Excellent advice.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> In this article, more of the actual message by IS is published. It describes President Obama being a 'mule for...'
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/islamic-state-followers-urged-to-attack-australians-by-any-means-possible-20140922-10kg74.html


Ha Ha. The terrorists have a bit of a sense of humor. I liked their description of Kerry. But how would they know???? As for the mule reference - I am glad they did not call Jews mules. So that could have been worse.

Solo, PP, Marilyn and maybe part of Wombat - happy new year.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Ha Ha. The terrorists have a bit of a sense of humor. I liked their description of Kerry. But how would they know???? As for the mule reference - I am glad they did not call Jews mules. So that could have been worse.


Well, I'm off to buy a burka, or I'll knit one. Hmm, decisions, decisions!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Here is something funny and oh so appropriate.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/09/22/1331400/-Is-This-Photo-With-Rick-Perry-Real-If-It-s-Not-It-Should-Be?detail=email8#


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I think that regardless of the fear mongering, the impingement on our freedoms, the invisible elite and the lies we've been told (i.e., weapons of mass destruction), there is a real threat from a group of individuals (whether constructed by the powers that be or not), who are determined to wreak horror and terror in the cities and suburbs of our nations. And they will, that's a given. You only have to reflect on what was inflicted on Lee Rigby the British Soldier, and the captive journalists and aid worker to understand the brand of terror we face now.
> 
> We're told to go about our daily lives, but to accept the fact that some of our freedoms will be lost in order to ensure a modicum of safety.
> 
> The question is, how does one process all of this and responsibly prepare psychologically?


Benjamin Franklin said, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." It sounds appropriate here, though of course no country's citizens have any say when their government decides to take away "essential Liberty" in return for providing "temporary Safety." (And if you don't know who Benjamin Franklin was, you should. He practically invented the entire 18th century.)


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Leader of Boko Haram believed to have been killed:
> 
> http://news.vice.com/article/boko-haram-leader-abubakar-shekau-reported-killed-again-this-time-by-cameroons-army
> 
> ...


Well, some news is good news.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> This is the goal of the UN. They want a global government and thinks this will eliminate inequality. They are slowly doing it through different treaties. A recent push is against gun ownership of citizens. Kissinger has it right.


There are those in our own government who want the same.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Isn't that how we got the Patriot Act forced on us?


Absolutely! That and the ndaa.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> We still have rights for them to take away?


I think maybe just a few.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I adore other paranoids who think like I do. It was fishy that with all the Secret Service men and dogs that 2 guys made it so close to the front door of the White House. Is this the excuse the WH needs to turn it into a bunker, really knowing of some serious attack against the US is in the works? What do you think?


Ah, sisters of the mind. 
The whitehouse is already a bunker. Literally! I think they're going to say that the masses cannot visit any of the important places, ie the whitehouse, the capitol building, the monuments etc... No marches! No protests! No one can interfere with the government. Of course it will all be to protect the government.

Either that, or they want to ask for everyone's papers and frisk them on the street. I can assure you that terrorism will be used for more control. Again!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> Unfortunately, this has been going on in our prisons for decades. Anyone and anything can be bought or sold.


And they could stop it anytime they wanted.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Excellent advice.


Thank you!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> In this article, more of the actual message by IS is published. It describes President Obama being a 'mule for...'
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/islamic-state-followers-urged-to-attack-australians-by-any-means-possible-20140922-10kg74.html


I like how they called the French, spiteful and filthy. That's because the French are calling them daesh, and they hate it.

Seriously though, they are on a rampage. We ALL need to pay attention to our surroundings and who's around us. If you see some guy with a big bushy beard, run the other way! Or a guy with a machete! Just kidding! LOOK at the people around you. Look for clues. Be aware! Be prepared to act, ie run. People, especially women who look like they're not paying attention, are targets. They can only succeed by sneaking up on someone.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Ha Ha. The terrorists have a bit of a sense of humor. I liked their description of Kerry. But how would they know???? As for the mule reference - I am glad they did not call Jews mules. So that could have been worse.
> 
> Solo, PP, Marilyn and maybe part of Wombat - happy new year.


I wonder how they know he's uncircumcised.

Yeah, Happy New Year to those for whom it applies.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Well, I'm off to buy a burka, or I'll knit one. Hmm, decisions, decisions!


Choose black!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Benjamin Franklin said, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." It sounds appropriate here, though of course no country's citizens have any say when their government decides to take away "essential Liberty" in return for providing "temporary Safety." (And if you don't know who Benjamin Franklin was, you should. He practically invented the entire 18th century.)


Gee! Now you're starting to sound like ME!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Well, some news is good news.


IF it actually happens, this time.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Ha Ha. The terrorists have a bit of a sense of humor. I liked their description of Kerry. But how would they know???? As for the mule reference - I am glad they did not call Jews mules. So that could have been worse.
> 
> Solo, PP, Marilyn and maybe part of Wombat - happy new year.


L' shalom


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I like how they called the French, spiteful and filthy. That's because the French are calling them daesh, and they hate it.
> 
> Seriously though, they are on a rampage. We ALL need to pay attention to our surroundings and who's around us. If you see some guy with a big bushy beard, run the other way! Or a guy with a machete! Just kidding! LOOK at the people around you. Look for clues. Be aware! Be prepared to act, ie run. People, especially women who look like they're not paying attention, are targets. They can only succeed by sneaking up on someone.


all evil people should be "trampled on" otherwise, before we know it, they will be ruling us and the world. I feel ISIS is like a cancer that should be cut out before it is allowed to spread.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Benjamin Franklin said, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." It sounds appropriate here, though of course no country's citizens have any say when their government decides to take away "essential Liberty" in return for providing "temporary Safety." (And if you don't know who Benjamin Franklin was, you should. He practically invented the entire 18th century.)


I know of Benjamin Franklin, of course. A great man. Maybe we have to form a resistance ourselves. Stand up to this scum. Get a licence for a concealed firearm and take it from there.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

georgethefifth said:


> all evil people should be "trampled on" otherwise, before we know it, they will be ruling us and the world. I feel ISIS is like a cancer that should be cut out before it is allowed to spread.


Are you saying, if they try to cut off our heads, we should trample them? I think we should run!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I know of Benjamin Franklin, of course. A great man. Maybe we have to form a resistance ourselves. Stand up to this scum. Get a licence for a concealed firearm and take it from there.


But...but... youre a liberal!
Can't wait to hear the responses to this comment!


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Are you saying, if they try to cut off our heads, we should trample them? I think we should run!


that is not what I am saying. Hitler, was an evil man, look at what he did & tried to do. It wasn't until he was "trampled" on, that good "overcame" evil.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

georgethefifth said:


> that is not what I am saying. Hitler, was an evil man, look at what he did & tried to do. It wasn't until he was "trampled" on, that good "overcame" evil.


Well, feel free to go "trample" on them! I don't want to and I don't want my sons to do it. How about if the US and her allies just stop training, funding and arming them? Would that do? Perhaps, we should get out of the business of creating terrorists?


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Well, feel free to go "trample" on them! I don't want to and I don't want my sons to do it. How about if the US and her allies just stop training, funding and arming them? Would that do? Perhaps, we should get out of the business of creating terrorists?


Dear, you are missing the point. You & I can't "trample" on the evil ISIS. I agree with you that our governments are spending time and money, for what? Not the betterment of our countries. Are they trying to help "humanity" out of the goodness of their hearts? I don't know. If everybody keeps saying, "I don't want to do it & I don't want my children to do it either" then we will fall into the clutches of evil. It has to be done as a unit. You know that old saying, united we stand, divided we fall. I don't have the answers, that is why I said in my first comment re this today, "I pray our governments will make the right decisions for everybody in our peace loving countries. There comes a time when we have to stand up to bullies, whether they are in our home towns or around the world. Let's not argue with each other, that is not going to cure anything. Blessings


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I like how they called the French, spiteful and filthy. That's because the French are calling them daesh, and they hate it.
> 
> Seriously though, they are on a rampage. We ALL need to pay attention to our surroundings and who's around us. If you see some guy with a big bushy beard, run the other way! Or a guy with a machete! Just kidding! LOOK at the people around you. Look for clues. Be aware! Be prepared to act, ie run. People, especially women who look like they're not paying attention, are targets. They can only succeed by sneaking up on someone.


 some guy with a big bushy beard Describes our bikies.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

georgethefifth said:


> Dear, you are missing the point. You & I can't "trample" on the evil ISIS. I agree with you that our governments are spending time and money, for what? Not the betterment of our countries. Are they trying to help "humanity" out of the goodness of their hearts? I don't know. If everybody keeps saying, "I don't want to do it & I don't want my children to do it either" then we will fall into the clutches of evil. It has to be done as a unit. You know that old saying, united we stand, divided we fall. I don't have the answers, that is why I said in my first comment re this today, "I pray our governments will make the right decisions for everybody in our peace loving countries. There comes a time when we have to stand up to bullies, whether they are in our home towns or around the world. Let's not argue with each other, that is not going to cure anything. Blessings


Nope. You're the one that's missing the point. It was our government who created the terrorists. They did so for several reasons, all leading back to money, oil, power and control. Not to mention, they love war! We must be at war, at all times! War is money! We are being deceived! Are we to sacrifice the lives of our sons, for political games? They do not value the lives of our sons!

Here's an article for you to read. Be sure to click on the links. They provide the evidence for what's being said. Watch the videos! Listen to the general who was told the plan before it happened. ALL of this, was part of their plan! Nothing is happening that wasn't planned!
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/the-wars-in-the-middle-east-and-north-africa-are-not-just-about-oil-theyre-also-about-gas.html

If this doesn't convince you, let me know. I have more! If you want to get rid of the true evil, you must identify it!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> some guy with a big bushy beard Describes our bikies.


I was kidding.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

ISIL ally responds to French air strikes in Iraq by kidnapping French tourist:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/09/fighters-kidnap-french-citizen-algeria-201492219175850454.html


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> some guy with a big bushy beard Describes our bikies.


Maybe our government should reintroduce conscription for all bikies registered with a club; train them up for terror combat and let them loose in the ME?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Nope. You're the one that's missing the point. It was our government who created the terrorists. They did so for several reasons, all leading back to money, oil, power and control. Not to mention, they love war! We must be at war, at all times! War is money! We are being deceived! Are we to sacrifice the lives of our sons, for political games? They do not value the lives of our sons!
> 
> Here's an article for you to read. Be sure to click on the links. They provide the evidence for what's being said. Watch the videos! Listen to the general who was told the plan before it happened. ALL of this, was part of their plan! Nothing is happening that wasn't planned!
> http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/the-wars-in-the-middle-east-and-north-africa-are-not-just-about-oil-theyre-also-about-gas.html
> ...


Maybe said governments and those in cahoots) has finally bitten off more than they can chew now?


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Nope. You're the one that's missing the point. It was our government who created the terrorists. They did so for several reasons, all leading back to money, oil, power and control. Not to mention, they love war! We must be at war, at all times! War is money! We are being deceived! Are we to sacrifice the lives of our sons, for political games? They do not value the lives of our sons!
> 
> Here's an article for you to read. Be sure to click on the links. They provide the evidence for what's being said. Watch the videos! Listen to the general who was told the plan before it happened. ALL of this, was part of their plan! Nothing is happening that wasn't planned!
> http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/the-wars-in-the-middle-east-and-north-africa-are-not-just-about-oil-theyre-also-about-gas.html
> ...


This is what starts war, people arguing back & forth, always wanting the last word. I am not falling into your trap. Please let us stop this. Blessings to you & peace to you and your world. Which is what I wish for everyone in this beautiful world we live in.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

The US started bombing Syria. France did so earlier. Not much of a coalition at this point. There may be covert help from a slew of countries, inc some Arab nations. We will see.


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

SQM said:


> The US started bombing Syria. France did so earlier. Not much of a coalition at this point. There may be covert help from a slew of countries, inc some Arab nations. We will see.


The more I learn, the more I think, maybe you don't have the right people in your government. If, that is the case, you should be more careful about electing the proper officials. Or, let the present power know what displeases you & hopefully, something will be done about it.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> IMO that ship has sailed. Australia is certainly accommodating 'crazies' and I read today that the Netherlands has had to react in a similar way to Australia over the last week due to their resident 'crazies.'
> 
> But then, 'evil' has always resided among us. What's new?


Wombatnomore
Evil is where Man resides. Just look at those who call themselves "good fearing" how nasty and hateful they behave. They are on constant attack against those who do not believe as they do. As you say: "What's new?"


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

georgethefifth said:


> The more I learn, the more I think, maybe you don't have the right people in your government. If, that is the case, you should be more careful about electing the proper officials. Or, let the present power know what displeases you & hopefully, something will be done about it.


The officials are in charge of nothing. The present power is just an administrator for Defense Contractors and other war profiteers.


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

SQM said:


> The officials are in charge of nothing. The present power is just an administrator for Defense Contractors and other war profiteers.


How did the present officials come to power?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

georgethefifth said:


> How did the present officials come to power?


The power is held by the corporations, banks and military (defense contractors). Our govt. officials are just administrators for these groups.

We are voting for puppets.

I assume your question was rhetorical.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> The power is held by the corporations, banks and military (defense contractors). Our govt. officials are just administrators for these groups.
> 
> We are voting for puppets.
> 
> I assume your question was rhetorical.


Agree!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Agree!


Ah ha! Nebs is more radical than she is willing to meet. Thumbs up! A conservative citizen would be saying my country right or wrong and accept all the American symbols at face value.

Yay!!!!!!!

Hi Nebs.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Ah ha! Nebs is more radical than she is willing to meet. Thumbs up! A conservative citizen would be saying my country right or wrong and accept all the American symbols at face value.
> 
> Yay!!!!!!!
> 
> Hi Nebs.


Hey, SQM! A TRUE conservative is never in denial. They would rather acknowledge the problem and find a solution, than pretend nothing was wrong. Is that radical?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Conservatives want to maintain the status quo and consider themselves patriotic. What problem has a conservative ever solved? I thought they only caused the problem and leave it to the liberals to clean up. Sort of like following an elephant with a dust pan.

You are observant of your religion. Otherwise, you think a bit differently than the typical conservative. Do any of your neighbors share your political world view?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Conservatives want to maintain the status quo and consider themselves patriotic. What problem has a conservative ever solved? I thought they only caused the problem and leave it to the liberals to clean up. Sort of like following an elephant with a dust pan.
> 
> You are observant of your religion. Otherwise, you think a bit differently than the typical conservative. Do any of your neighbors share your political world view?


It is true that conservatives generally don't like change. That doesn't mean that they want to keep the change that's already occurred. They'd rather things went back to where they were comfortable. There are all kinds of conservatives, just as there are all kinds of liberals. They don't all believe the same things. What you think of as a conservative is merely a stereotype. The media hypes the stereotype to create an us vs them atmosphere. It sells. The truth is, we are all more alike than different. We all want the same things, we just disagree on how to get them. I wish there were no conservatives, no liberals, no democrats and no republicans, just people.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Wombatnomore
> Evil is where Man resides. Just look at those who call themselves "good fearing" how nasty and hateful they behave. They are on constant attack against those who do not believe as they do. As you say: "What's new?"


Thank goodness they're not armed. Oh wait...


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It is true that conservatives generally don't like change. That doesn't mean that they want to keep the change that's already occurred. They'd rather things went back to where they were comfortable. There are all kinds of conservatives, just as there are all kinds of liberals. They don't all believe the same things. What you think of as a conservative is merely a stereotype. The media hypes the stereotype to create an us vs them atmosphere. It sells. The truth is, we are all more alike than different. We all want the same things, we just disagree on how to get them. I wish there were no conservatives, no liberals, no democrats and no republicans, just people.


Eeek! Anarchy!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> But...but... youre a liberal!
> Can't wait to hear the responses to this comment!


Do you think liberal=idiot? If guns are registered and the owners are trained to use and store them safely - and they're not given out like lollipops - even liberals might find them useful.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> some guy with a big bushy beard Describes our bikies.


Describes our rabbis.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Maybe our government should reintroduce conscription for all bikies registered with a club; train them up for terror combat and let them loose in the ME?


Great idea. We have a few, too. Or we could send in the rabbis.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Or you could consider that the voters elect our officials and therefore the voters bear the burden.



SQM said:


> The power is held by the corporations, banks and military (defense contractors). Our govt. officials are just administrators for these groups.
> 
> We are voting for puppets.
> 
> I assume your question was rhetorical.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Great idea. We have a few, too. Or we could send in the rabbis.


 :XD:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Do you think liberal=idiot? If guns are registered and the owners are trained to use and store them safely - and they're not given out like lollipops - even liberals might find them useful.


I think there are probably as many liberal idiots as there are conservative idiots. Since wombat was speaking of a hand gun, they already must be registered. You can't buy a hand gun anywhere without registering it. Except of course, the criminals, who can and do. What I find particularly interesting, is that no one commented on your post. It's such a contradiction to hear a liberal suggest that arming themselves might be a good idea.

Seriously though, if isis is going to bring the war to our streets, I hope lots of people are armed. I should even think about getting a gun. Perhaps, we should all consider arming ourselves before we're in a situation where we need one? I bet the people in Iraq and Syria, wish they had. The world's gone mad! It's only a matter of time, for the madness to strike here.

Perhaps, the government could even train and assign weapons to the people, like they do in Switzerland. Switzerland has the lowest crime rate of any country. Nah, our government is trying to disarm the people, so that we'll be helpless when they come after us, like they're going after the Iraqis and the Syrians.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Or you could consider that the voters elect our officials and therefore the voters bear the burden.


Or you could consider that the entire election process is corrupt. Why couldn't it be? Everything else is corrupted. Joseph Stalin said, "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything.".

We've already seen hanging chads and voting machines that change your vote. Why do we assume that everything is fine?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think there are probably as many liberal idiots as there are conservative idiots. Since wombat was speaking of a hand gun, they already must be registered. You can't buy a hand gun anywhere without registering it. Except of course, the criminals, who can and do. What I find particularly interesting, is that no one commented on your post. It's such a contradiction to hear a liberal suggest that arming themselves might be a good idea.
> 
> Seriously though, if isis is going to bring the war to our streets, I hope lots of people are armed. I should even think about getting a gun. Perhaps, we should all consider arming ourselves before we're in a situation where we need one? I bet the people in Iraq and Syria, wish they had. The world's gone mad! It's only a matter of time, for the madness to strike here.
> 
> Perhaps, the government could even train and assign weapons to the people, like they do in Switzerland. Switzerland has the lowest crime rate of any country. Nah, our government is trying to disarm the people, so that we'll be helpless when they come after us, like they're going after the Iraqis and the Syrians.


Americans are already armed to the teeth. There are 90 privately-owned guns for every 100 people in the US, the highest in the world. No one is trying to take away guns. Faux news and NRA myths.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Great idea. We have a few, too. Or we could send in the rabbis.


This brought to my mind, the pictures of the hippies putting flowers down the barrels of the soldiers guns, in the sixties.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Americans are already armed to the teeth. There are 90 privately-owned guns for every 100 people in the US, the highest in the world. No one is trying to take away guns. Faux news and NRA myths.


According to Pew research conducted last year, only 24% of Americans own guns. 
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/04/a-minority-of-americans-own-guns-but-just-how-many-is-unclear/


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> What happened to the people in New Orleans after Katrina?


Yup! Gun confiscation! Of course, the criminals still had their guns.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> According to Pew research conducted last year, only 24% of Americans own guns.
> http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/04/a-minority-of-americans-own-guns-but-just-how-many-is-unclear/


Interesting. Thanks for that.

There are still a LOT of guns out there.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> What happened to the people in New Orleans after Katrina?


A lot of bad stuff.

Widespread gun confiscation was not one of them. Try to read more accounts of those instances where it happened than you will see on YouTube or hear from the NRA.

I can't believe anyone would seriously suggest that what happened in New Orleans is proof that the "govermint" is in the business of taking away guns. Doesn't stand up to scrutiny at all.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Or you could consider that the entire election process is corrupt. Why couldn't it be? Everything else is corrupted. Joseph Stalin said, "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything.".
> 
> We've already seen hanging chads and voting machines that change your vote. Why do we assume that everything is fine?


Then don't assume. Volunteer to be a poll worker and see for yourself. You might even learn something.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Interesting. Thanks for that.
> 
> There are still a LOT of guns out there.


What I wonder is, how many of those guns are in the hands of gang bangers? Are we going to have to rely on them to protect us if isis comes to town? I'd feel better if more of the good guys were carrying. It would be nice if, the minute a terrorist pulled out his machete, somebody popped him.  That would teach them to go after Americans!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What I wonder is, how many of those guns are in the hands of gang bangers? Are we going to have to rely on them to protect us if isis comes to town? I'd feel better if more of the good guys were carrying. It would be nice if, the minute a terrorist pulled out his machete, somebody popped him.  That would teach them to go after Americans!


You are correct - probably a lot. But there are a lot of good guys carrying, too. In my own circle of friends and family, most everyone has their own arsenal and would use it.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> A lot of bad stuff.
> 
> Widespread gun confiscation was not one of them. Try to read more accounts of those instances where it happened than you will see on YouTube or hear from the NRA.
> 
> I can't believe anyone would seriously suggest that what happened in New Orleans is proof that the "govermint" is in the business of taking away guns. Doesn't stand up to scrutiny at all.


You are deceived! Guns were confiscated! NO civilians were allowed guns! They went door to door and took them from the people. This doesn't prove that the government WILL take guns but it does prove that they WOULD take guns from the people. 
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/08/national/nationalspecial/08cnd-storm.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

They even beat little old ladies to take their guns.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Then don't assume. Volunteer to be a poll worker and see for yourself. You might even learn something.


A poll worker would not be present when they go into the computers and change the votes. Nor is a poll worker present when the voting machine changes the vote, right in front of the voter's eyes. And you can't exactly volunteer to be there when they COUNT the votes.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You are correct - probably a lot. But there are a lot of good guys carrying, too. In my own circle of friends and family, most everyone has their own arsenal and would use it.


I wish that were true for me. We're just not gun people. My guys never hunted and having a gun just feels so foreign and scary. Maybe someday? Even though we don't have guns, I will fight for the right to have one.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

As to the talk about guns. Those and not all but those who want to use guns to harm someone can obtain guns on the black market meaning they are not registored, or steal them. They also can file off the numbers of said gun so they can not be caught using said gun. 

Most people who own guns do not use them to kill anyone.

Plus knives can kill, hammers can kill, beating people can kill. If it is in the nature of the person if they want to kill they will find away.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Maybe our government should reintroduce conscription for all bikies registered with a club; train them up for terror combat and let them loose in the ME?


They are already conscripted into the various gangs, tooled up and high as kites. I do not think they would need much training, they are pretty good at fighting and striking terror into the hearts of those who fall foul of them. Have you ever heard the noise made as over 100 of them roar past you on the open road? Their Harleys are more maneuverable than the utes IS use and a lot faster to boot. Only one problem. How to get the Hells Angels, Gods Garbage, Mongrel Mob and Coffin Cheaters all to co operate with each other and fight the enemy and not each other? I know, I know, just tell them that IS are the coppers who are out to stop them making money from their various nefarious activities. We all know what line of business they are in, the bikies that is not the boys in blue, although some of them are also in the same line of trade.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You are deceived! Guns were confiscated! NO civilians were allowed guns! They went door to door and took them from the people. This doesn't prove that the government WILL take guns but it does prove that they WOULD take guns from the people.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/08/national/nationalspecial/08cnd-storm.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
> 
> They even beat little old ladies to take their guns.
> ...


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> According to Pew research conducted last year, only 24% of Americans own guns.
> http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/04/a-minority-of-americans-own-guns-but-just-how-many-is-unclear/


Pew did not ask me if I had a gun. Polls extrapolate and are not the last word. I am a liberal and am against gun control -except for private ownership of semi automatic and automatic guns. Who really needs those?


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

SQM said:


> Pew did not ask me if I had a gun. Polls extrapolate and are not the last word. I am a liberal and am against gun control -except for private ownership of semi automatic and automatic guns. Who really needs those?


you are right about guns you said. Even husband said there is no reason to own one. Unless you want to use to harm others.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Great idea. We have a few, too. Or we could send in the rabbis.


Good idea. I have a mental picture of each and every member of IS being surrounded by several Rabbi, each arguing a point in the Torah. I am sure that the IS would be pleading for mercy in a very short space of time.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Or you could consider that the entire election process is corrupt. Why couldn't it be? Everything else is corrupted. Joseph Stalin said, "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything.".
> 
> We've already seen hanging chads and voting machines that change your vote. Why do we assume that everything is fine?


Over here we do not have the voting machines, we still use paper and pencil. It is the boys in the backroom who wheel and deal and make preference sharing agreements between the minor parties who control the vote. At our last Federal Election we had members of the minor parties being elected to the Senate with so few first preference votes but these were bolstered by the preference deals that had been struck by the back room power brokers. We do not have 'first past the post' system of voting but the preferential system. The last Federal election saw so many independent and minor party candidates standing, the voting paper was about 1 metre long. Unfortunately we ended up with Senators from the 'Hunters and Shooters' Party, the 'Motoring Enthusiasts' Party, and of course we must not forget Jackie Lambie from the "Palmer United Party' or PUP for short. Boy were they ever sold a PUP when they voted for her.

It is the popular press who manipulate and persuade the general population and they are only acting out the wishes of the moguls who own the media outlets. Shock Jocks also do their best to persuade the man in the street, the average voter to cast their vote in a particular fashion.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> A different, and more reasonable story from Brannon LeBouef, who is the owner and founder of NOLATAC Training and Consulting and The St Bernard indoor Shooting Center. Brannon is an 11-year veteran of the US Marine Corps, a 15 plus year veteran of law enforcement, a former private military security contractor, and professional firearms trainer. He can be reached at [email protected] or www.nolatacforum.com.
> 
> From his account of the time following Katrina:
> 
> ...


It was the superintendent of police who said, "No civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to carry pistols, shotguns or other firearms. Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons.". 
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/12/27/426702/-Shooting-Down-The-NRA-s-Katrina-Elitism


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> You are right. It is the person that kills, not the weapon.


I never understood this distinction. I could not kill an intruder unless I had a weapon. Once I am holding and aiming the gun, the gun becomes the means of death. Not my extended arm which would do very little damage. (Where are my resistance bands?)


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Good old Kissinger. Add to what you've quoted, the fact that many Americans believe their rights have already eroded so much that they're almost nonexistent, and a lot of people will gladly give them up for a sense of greater security, not necessarily better security. The recent actions of the Daesh Cutthroats, especially the three beheadings, have created an ugly picture in the minds of Americans, and many other countries. Here we are, worried about terrorists who could sneak into the country with perfectly valid passports and the guy who made it to the White House with a knife and it looks like we don't have any security. Oh, I forgot to mention home-grown terrorists. Who knows how many of those we've got.


Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, it all starts with removing individual rights. Later nations will lose their sovereignty and individuals won't be able to stop it, because they will have already lost their rights.
> =picture in ur minds about what hme-grwn terrorists could do here in the
> The masses will accept the new world order just to stop the wars. Here's a relevant quote from Henry Kissinger.
> 
> ...


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Pew did not ask me if I had a gun. Polls extrapolate and are not the last word. I am a liberal and am against gun control -except for private ownership of semi automatic and automatic guns. Who really needs those?


Do you understand what a semi automatic means? It simply means that the gun shoots when you pull the trigger, vs having to cock the gun before pulling the trigger. An automatic is when hold the trigger down and it sprays bullets. Those are illegal. Most hunting titles are semi automatic. The only difference between a hunting rifle and an assault rifle, is that hunting rifles generally have a wood stock and assault rifles are made to LOOK scary by being all black.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Do you understand what a semi automatic means? It simply means that the gun shoots when you pull the trigger, vs having to cock the gun before pulling the trigger. An automatic is when hold the trigger down and it sprays bullets. Those are illegal. Most hunting titles are semi automatic. The only difference between a hunting rifle and an assault rifle, is that hunting rifles generally have a wood stock and assault rifles are made to LOOK scary by being all black.


I understand cap and water guns.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

I have been wondering when we are going to see the kind of violence you describe happen here in the US. Given the number of terrorist acts other countries have experienced, it doesn't seem like much of that has happened here. Yet.


Wombatnomore said:


> I think that regardless of the fear mongering, the impingement on our freedoms, the invisible elite and the lies we've been told (i.e., weapons of mass destruction), there is a real threat from a group of individuals (whether constructed by the powers that be or not), who are determined to wreak horror and terror in the cities and suburbs of our nations. And they will, that's a given. You only have to reflect on what was inflicted on Lee Rigby the British Soldier, and the captive journalists and aid worker to understand the brand of terror we face now.
> 
> We're told to go about our daily lives, but to accept the fact that some of our freedoms will be lost in order to ensure a modicum of safety.
> 
> The question is, how does one process all of this and responsibly prepare psychologically?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Over here we do not have the voting machines, we still use paper and pencil. It is the boys in the backroom who wheel and deal and make preference sharing agreements between the minor parties who control the vote. At our last Federal Election we had members of the minor parties being elected to the Senate with so few first preference votes but these were bolstered by the preference deals that had been struck by the back room power brokers. We do not have 'first past the post' system of voting but the preferential system. The last Federal election saw so many independent and minor party candidates standing, the voting paper was about 1 metre long. Unfortunately we ended up with Senators from the 'Hunters and Shooters' Party, the 'Motoring Enthusiasts' Party, and of course we must not forget Jackie Lambie from the "Palmer United Party' or PUP for short. Boy were they ever sold a PUP when they voted for her.
> 
> It is the popular press who manipulate and persuade the general population and they are only acting out the wishes of the moguls who own the media outlets. Shock Jocks also do their best to persuade the man in the street, the average voter to cast their vote in a particular fashion.


Here in Nebraska, we have paper and pencil voting as well. But I think the general trend is toward computerized voting. Manipulation by the media is a problem as well.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I never understood this distinction. I could not kill an intruder unless I had a weapon. Once I am holding and aiming the gun, the gun becomes the means of death. Not my extended arm which would do very little damage. (Where are my resistance bands?)


A person can kill with any weapon. It is the person who does the killing. Just ask isis. They're pretty handy with machetes.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Good old Kissinger. Add to what you've quoted, the fact that many Americans believe their rights have already eroded so much that they're almost nonexistent, and a lot of people will gladly give them up for a sense of greater security, not necessarily better security. The recent actions of the Daesh Cutthroats, especially the three beheadings, have created an ugly picture in the minds of Americans, and many other countries. Here we are, worried about terrorists who could sneak into the country with perfectly valid passports and the guy who made it to the White House with a knife and it looks like we don't have any security. Oh, I forgot to mention home-grown terrorists. Who knows how many of those we've got.


It looks as though you may have accidentally altered my comment by inserting into it.

We hear a lot about "home grown terrorists". The government refers to the tea party and other patriots groups, as " home grown terrorists". I'm not afraid of those people. They're not going after innocent people. They're just trying to "out" government corruption. IMO, there are two main groups we need to worry about (other than the government). There are those who have been recruited by the terrorists and there are the crazies. The crazies are the mentally unbalanced people who go on shooting sprees. We are never going to eliminate the crazies. They're a fact of life. If they don't get their hands on guns, they'll use other weapons, such as knives, machetes and chainsaws. The crazies are random so there's not much we can do about them. The only control we could have over each of these groups is if good people were armed, and we were allowed to defend ourselves. All the laws in the world can't protect us against either terrorists or crazies. So, I'm not willing to give up my rights for pretend safety! We're fools if we allow it!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I understand cap and water guns.


I'm pretty good with those, as well. :lol:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I have been wondering when we are going to see the kind of violence you describe happen here in the US. Given the number of terrorist acts other countries have experienced, it doesn't seem like much of that has happened here. Yet.


I think that it will. Perhaps they're hesitant because in America, many people have concealed carry permits? Also, I'd like to think there'd be enough heroes, to stop an attack. I think in America, they'll go for indirect attacks like bombs or bioweapons. Too many of us would fight back against a direct attack. Maybe???


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think that it will. Perhaps they're hesitant because in America, many people have concealed carry permits? Also, I'd like to think there'd be enough heroes, to stop an attack. I think in America, they'll go for indirect attacks like bombs or bioweapons. Too many of us would fight back against a direct attack. Maybe???


Maybe. On 9/11 I kept wondering when a plane was going to crash into the Golden Gate Bridge, San Francisco being a mecca for gay people. (pardon the bad pun...) Then I started to wonder why no planes were crashing into Hollywood, the great cess pool of perversion where films depicting all sorts of sinful things are produced for public viewing.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think there are probably as many liberal idiots as there are conservative idiots. Since wombat was speaking of a hand gun, they already must be registered. You can't buy a hand gun anywhere without registering it. Except of course, the criminals, who can and do. What I find particularly interesting, is that no one commented on your post. It's such a contradiction to hear a liberal suggest that arming themselves might be a good idea.
> 
> Seriously though, if isis is going to bring the war to our streets, I hope lots of people are armed. I should even think about getting a gun. Perhaps, we should all consider arming ourselves before we're in a situation where we need one? I bet the people in Iraq and Syria, wish they had. The world's gone mad! It's only a matter of time, for the madness to strike here.
> 
> Perhaps, the government could even train and assign weapons to the people, like they do in Switzerland. Switzerland has the lowest crime rate of any country. Nah, our government is trying to disarm the people, so that we'll be helpless when they come after us, like they're going after the Iraqis and the Syrians.


Here's your paranoia rearing it's little head again. What evidence do you have that the govt is trying to disarm people? The right keeps saying it, but there's been no sign of any such attempt. In fact, the number of guns in this country keeps getting larger, to a frightening extent.

As for registration, maybe I should have called for background checks instead. But first, guns may have been registered when sold, but private sales can happen afterward, and I'm sure there are plenty of guns in the hands of non-criminals (a vague term) whose registrations have other people's names. Makes it useless.

As for background checks, there are enough loopholes to allow every madman who's not currently locked up to buy as many guns as he wants. And to get magazines that hold umpteen bullets. (These were once unlawful, but the "conservatives" that you claim to be allied with did away with that.)

I guess you've never known anyone who was killed accidentally by a gunshot meant for someone else. I've met people whose parents or babies were killed that way (well, one of each). So arming everyone isn't the safest way, either, unless you believe that killing a bad guy is more important than protecting a good guy.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Americans are already armed to the teeth. There are 90 privately-owned guns for every 100 people in the US, the highest in the world. No one is trying to take away guns. Faux news and NRA myths.


Thank you, D.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> According to Pew research conducted last year, only 24% of Americans own guns.
> http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/04/a-minority-of-americans-own-guns-but-just-how-many-is-unclear/


Okay, and more than half of the remaining 76% are children. Plus keep in mind that people own multiple guns (to quote Texas Conservative Phil Gramm: "I have more guns than I need but not as many as I want").

So 90 guns per 100 people doesn't seems to be out of bounds.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Interesting. Thanks for that.
> 
> There are still a LOT of guns out there.


And that link is also consistent with your numbers:

"There are by various estimates anywhere from 270 million to 310 million guns in the United States  close to one firearm for every man, woman and child. But in point of fact, only a minority of Americans own guns."


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> A lot of bad stuff.
> 
> Widespread gun confiscation was not one of them. Try to read more accounts of those instances where it happened than you will see on YouTube or hear from the NRA.
> 
> I can't believe anyone would seriously suggest that what happened in New Orleans is proof that the "govermint" is in the business of taking away guns. Doesn't stand up to scrutiny at all.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> As to the talk about guns. Those and not all but those who want to use guns to harm someone can obtain guns on the black market meaning they are not registored, or steal them. They also can file off the numbers of said gun so they can not be caught using said gun.
> 
> Most people who own guns do not use them to kill anyone.
> 
> Plus knives can kill, hammers can kill, beating people can kill. If it is in the nature of the person if they want to kill they will find away.


Poison, too, and cars. But all of these require getting close to your chosen victim, while a gun can be shot from across the street or on a roof and hit the target.

1. Many people have been shot accidentally by a gun aimed at someone else or a gun misfiring. Not so many have been killed by knives hitting the wrong target.

2. Guns are the most efficient way for one lunatic to kill many others, which is why mass killers always have them. How many people can you kill with a hammer before they come to take you away?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> You are right. It is the person that kills, not the weapon.


From http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/

In 2010, unintentional firearm injuries caused the deaths of 606 people.18

From 2005-2010, almost 3,800 people in the U.S. died from unintentional shootings.19

Over 1,300 victims of unintentional shootings for the period 20052010 were under 25 years of age.20

*People of all age groups are significantly more likely to die from unintentional firearm injuries when they live in states with more guns, relative to states with fewer guns. On average, states with the highest gun levels had nine times the rate of unintentional firearms deaths compared to states with the lowest gun levels.*21


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Good idea. I have a mental picture of each and every member of IS being surrounded by several Rabbi, each arguing a point in the Torah. I am sure that the IS would be pleading for mercy in a very short space of time.


A joke: Golda Meir, when she was PM of Israel, was asked how come Israeli forces did so well against the more numerous Arabs fighting them. Meir said: "Well, the front lines are entirely made up of Jewish lawyers, behind them we have Jewish accountants, and to the rear are the Jewish doctors and dentists. Then the Commander calls out _Charge!_, and you know how those guys can charge."


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I never understood this distinction. I could not kill an intruder unless I had a weapon. Once I am holding and aiming the gun, the gun becomes the means of death. Not my extended arm which would do very little damage. (Where are my resistance bands?)


 :thumbup: :XD: :thumbup: :XD: :thumbup:


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> As to the talk about guns. Those and not all but those who want to use guns to harm someone can obtain guns on the black market meaning they are not registored, or steal them. They also can file off the numbers of said gun so they can not be caught using said gun.
> 
> Most people who own guns do not use them to kill anyone.
> 
> Plus knives can kill, hammers can kill, beating people can kill. If it is in the nature of the person if they want to kill they will find away.


no weapon kills, it is the person who is handling the weapon that kills


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Okay, and more than half of the remaining 76% are children. Plus keep in mind that people own multiple guns (to quote Texas Conservative Phil Gramm: "I have more guns than I need but not as many as I want").
> 
> So 90 guns per 100 people doesn't seems to be out of bounds.


The research was based upon ADULTS who own guns. Here's clarification.

http://www.people-press.org/2013/03/12/section-3-gun-ownership-trends-and-demographics/#who-owns


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> From http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/
> 
> In 2010, unintentional firearm injuries caused the deaths of 606 people.18
> 
> ...


And over 800 people drown at home in pools and bathtubs. Should we ban those as well?
http://realestate.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=22436364

And over 40,000 die every year in car accidents. Should we ban cars?
http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/stats.html

Every year, 18,000 people die from accidents in their own homes!
http://realestate.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=22436364

Shall we put this in perspective?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think that it will. Perhaps they're hesitant because in America, many people have concealed carry permits? Also, I'd like to think there'd be enough heroes, to stop an attack. I think in America, they'll go for indirect attacks like bombs or bioweapons. Too many of us would fight back against a direct attack. Maybe???


I'm not sure it's fear of American heroes stopping the attack with their six-shooters. Distance is probably a factor--the US is (happily) surrounded by two vast oceans that take some effort to cross. Yes, I know some would argue that terrorists can easily slip across the Mexico/US border, but they'd still have to get to Central America first.

Frankly, I think it's fear of reprisal. As someone (LTL?) has pointed out, we could turn the territory of the IS Caliphate into glass in a matter of hours. That's unlikely to happen as long as Americans are safe behind their own borders, but even one attack on US territory would probably spell the quick and total demise of ISIS.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> A joke: Golda Meir, when she was PM of Israel, was asked how come Israeli forces did so well against the more numerous Arabs fighting them. Meir said: "Well, the front lines are entirely made up of Jewish lawyers, behind them we have Jewish accountants, and to the rear are the Jewish doctors and dentists. Then the Commander calls out _Charge!_, and you know how those guys can charge."


Off topic, but did you see the joke that was posted about Jewish mothers? Funny!
http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-287619-1.html


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm not sure it's fear of American heroes stopping the attack with their six-shooters. Distance is probably a factor--the US is (happily) surrounded by two vast oceans that take some effort to cross. Yes, I know some would argue that terrorists can easily slip across the Mexico/US border, but they'd still have to get to Central America first.
> 
> Frankly, I think it's fear of reprisal. As someone (LTL?) has pointed out, we could turn the territory of the IS Caliphate into glass in a matter of hours. That's unlikely to happen as long as Americans are safe behind their own borders, but even one attack on US territory would probably spell the quick and total demise of ISIS.


But, they're saying that the terrorists are already here, that many of them are Americans.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And over 800 people drown at home in pools and bathtubs. Should we ban those as well?
> http://realestate.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=22436364
> 
> And over 40,000 die every year in car accidents. Should we ban cars?
> ...


Yes, let's.

Swimming pools are for swimming, exercise, cooling down, etc. No intent to harm anyone. Deaths/uses=some small number.

Cars are for going places (and often storage). Usually, no intent to harm anyone. Deaths/uses=some small number (number of deaths is high, but number of uses is way higher).

Homes are for living in. Often no intent to harm anyone. (Deaths/uses=some very small number.)

Guns are for shooting. (Like cigarettes, they result in death if used as prescribed.) Harm often intended. (Deaths/uses=a relatively high number; injuries/uses is even higher.)


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Yes, let's.
> 
> Swimming pools are for swimming, exercise, cooling down, etc. No intent to harm anyone. Deaths/uses=some small number.
> 
> ...


You ASSUME that guns are only used to kill.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/20098/gun-ownership-use-america.aspx


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> But, they're saying that the terrorists are already here, that many of them are Americans.


I know, but fortunately they haven't seem inclined to wage war against their own people as of yet. I imagine it would be a lot harder for these homegrown terrorists to attack familiar folks in familiar settings, like the neighborhood grocery, a park, or a school.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Off topic, but did you see the joke that was posted about Jewish mothers? Funny!
> http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-287619-1.html


Very funny. But it hit too close to home for me. While I was in graduate school, studying mathematics, I visited my mother in the hospital. She whispered to me in awe that her roommate's son-in-law was a scientist. I whispered back "So am I." Mom changed the subject immediately. Later that week I told her I'd just learned I was pregnant. Boy, was she proud! Roomy's son-in-law couldn't do that!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You ASSUME that guns are only used to kill.
> http://www.gallup.com/poll/20098/gun-ownership-use-america.aspx


Yes, I assume that's their purpose. Maybe animals, maybe to look scary, I'm sure there are many people who want guns for other uses, but their purpose is at the very least to injure.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Very funny. But it hit too close to home for me. While I was in graduate school, studying mathematics, I visited my mother in the hospital. She whispered to me in awe that her roommate's son-in-law was a scientist. I whispered back "So am I." Mom changed the subject immediately. Later that week I told her I'd just learned I was pregnant. Boy, was she proud! Roomy's son-in-law couldn't do that!


That's funny. So, did she ever acknowledge that your being a scientist was pretty great as well? Is it just a thing that Jewish women have with sons and not with daughters? I thought it was a "doctor" thing.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

SQM said:


> I never understood this distinction. I could not kill an intruder unless I had a weapon. Once I am holding and aiming the gun, the gun becomes the means of death. Not my extended arm which would do very little damage. (Where are my resistance bands?)


That's not true. Your arm could very well put down an intruder. A few self defense (not martial arts savvy) moves would allow for that. Many objects can be used as weapons. One just has to be ready to use the object as a weapon.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And over 800 people drown at home in pools and bathtubs. Should we ban those as well?
> http://realestate.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=22436364
> 
> And over 40,000 die every year in car accidents. Should we ban cars?
> ...


Shall we put this in further perspective? Bathtubs and cars are not INTENDED to hurt or kill. Accidents in our own homes - shall we outlaw homes? False equivalency at it's best.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> I know, but fortunately they haven't seem inclined to wage war against their own people as of yet. I imagine it would be a lot harder for these homegrown terrorists to attack familiar folks in familiar settings, like the neighborhood grocery, a park, or a school.


Those are exactly the targets they would choose first.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Yes, I assume that's their purpose. Maybe animals, maybe to look scary, I'm sure there are many people who want guns for other uses, but their purpose is at the very least to injure.


Lots of people think guns are fun for target shooting. I'll accept that, since a certain amount of skill is required to be proficient, just like most other sports. People like to collect them, like stamps, I guess. But one person's right to "fun" does not outweigh my right to safety. Sensible gun control is the answer.

And we need to stop expecting our law enforcement people to solve mental health problems.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Lots of people think guns are fun for target shooting. I'll accept that, since a certain amount of skill is required to be proficient, just like most other sports. People like to collect them, like stamps, I guess. But one person's right to "fun" does not outweigh my right to safety. Sensible gun control is the answer.
> 
> And we need to stop expecting our law enforcement people to solve mental health problems.


Do we really expect law enforcement to solve mental health problems? Policemen seem to have at least as many problems as civilians.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

I do not know if this news item has already been posted. It is 5.03 am Wednesday and I am just out of bed. I did hear it on last night's news. It was a news flash on our 7.00 pm news, but it took place at 7.40 (EAST) which is 2 hours ahead of us .

*Man who made threats against PM shot dead, two police stabbed*
ABC AUSTRALIA Wednesday 24 September 2014 04:51:32 AM 
	The shooting and stabbing took place near the Endeavour Hills police station. 
An 18-year-old man who made threats against the Prime Minister was shot dead after he stabbed two police officers from the joint counter terrorism team in Melbourne's outer south-east.
The ABC understands the dead man, who recently had his passport cancelled, was considered a "person of interest" by authorities and was being investigated over terrorism.
AFP Commander Bruce Giles said officers were looking into unconfirmed reports the man had been seen with an Islamic State flag before he was shot.
"There is intelligence to suggest that this incident may have happened but [we're] still confirming all the details to bring the links together on that," he said.
The incident occurred as the man arrived at a police station on Heatherton Road in Endeavour Hills about 7:40pm (AEST) on Tuesday.
He had been asked to attend an interview as part of an investigation.
Victoria Police Assistant Commissioner Luke Cornelius would not go into detail about why they wanted to speak to the man, but the ABC understands he had made threats against Prime Minister Tony Abbott.
An altercation between the man and the two officers took place outside the station. He produced a knife and stabbed the policemen.
The 18-year-old was then fatally shot by an officer.
One of the injured officers is from the Australian Federal Police (AFP) and the other is a Victoria Police member.
They were both rushed to hospital and one remained in a serious but stable condition in the early hours of Wednesday.
Mr Cornelius stressed the man came to the station of his own freewill.
"It's absolutely clear to us that our members had no choice other than to act in the way in which they did," he said.
"This is not an exercise in police seeking to single out particular individuals in the community."
Mr Cornelius added police believed this was an isolated incident.
"It appears this individual was acting on his own and was not acting in concert with other individuals," he said.
A large number of uniformed and plain clothes officers attended the scene late on Tuesday night, with officers interviewing witnesses from a nearby shopping centre.
The incident has occurred amid heightened tensions following last week's counter-terrorism raids in Sydney and Brisbane.
On Monday, Mr Abbott warned Australians the balance between freedom and security "may have to shift", given the current "troubling" and "darkening" security situation.
In Canberra on Tuesday AFP officers armed with assault rifles could be seen outside Parliament House.
The decision to post the heavily armed police officers outside Parliament House was taken by Speaker Bronwyn Bishop and President of the Senate Stephen Parry based on advice from security agencies.
It also comes after the Federal Government released its proposed anti-terrorism legislation targeting so-called "foreign fighters".
The Foreign Fighters Bill would create new offences for entering areas of countries that are declared as terrorist zones, and broaden the criteria for a terrorist organisation.
The Government says the 160-page document would give some law enforcement agencies extra "tools" to investigate, arrest and prosecute people supporting foreign conflicts.
Summary: An 18-year-old man who made threats against the Prime Minister was shot dead after he stabbed two police officers from the joint counter terrorism team in Melbourne's outer south-east.
The ABC understands the dead man, who recently had his passport cancelled, was considered a "person of interest" by authorities and was being investigated over terrorism.
The incident occurred as the man arrived at a police station on Heatherton Road in Endeavour Hills about 7:40pm (AEST) on Tuesday.
He had been asked to attend an interview as part of an investigation. Police would not go into detail about why they wanted to speak to the man.
AFP Commander Bruce Giles said officers were looking into unconfirmed reports the man had been seen with an Islamic State flag before he was shot.

Copyright © 2014 ABC Australia. All rights reserved. Disclaimer. 
http://www.news.net/article/1976680/Top+Stories/?referid=114


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You ASSUME that guns are only used to kill.
> http://www.gallup.com/poll/20098/gun-ownership-use-america.aspx


Forgive me, I am a peace loving Canadian, who don't believe in toting guns. Would you please explain to me what guns are used for, if not to kill. I don't know anything about guns, so please excuse my ignorance. Thank you for in advance for your reply .


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Poison, too, and cars. But all of these require getting close to your chosen victim, while a gun can be shot from across the street or on a roof and hit the target.
> 
> 1. Many people have been shot accidentally by a gun aimed at someone else or a gun misfiring. Not so many have been killed by knives hitting the wrong target.
> 
> 2. Guns are the most efficient way for one lunatic to kill many others, which is why mass killers always have them. How many people can you kill with a hammer before they come to take you away?


Well said, thank you. 
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> From http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/
> 
> In 2010, unintentional firearm injuries caused the deaths of 606 people.18
> 
> ...


Well spoken.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> A joke: Golda Meir, when she was PM of Israel, was asked how come Israeli forces did so well against the more numerous Arabs fighting them. Meir said: "Well, the front lines are entirely made up of Jewish lawyers, behind them we have Jewish accountants, and to the rear are the Jewish doctors and dentists. Then the Commander calls out _Charge!_, and you know how those guys can charge."


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Do we really expect law enforcement to solve mental health problems? Policemen seem to have at least as many problems as civilians.


We seem to expect them to protect us from shooters. Which is impossible, as we continue to learn. Instead of focusing on the mental health problems of those such as that wacko in Sandy Hook, recognizing the shortcomings of our mental health system, then doing something about that national disgrace, the hue and cry is to arm all the teachers and pay for police in every school. We need to think about our proposed "solutions."


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And over 800 people drown at home in pools and bathtubs. Should we ban those as well?
> http://realestate.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=22436364
> 
> And over 40,000 die every year in car accidents. Should we ban cars?
> ...


Perspective yes, but remember pools, bathtubs, cars and homes (where accidents occur) are not machines of death, they are not purchased with the intent to kill anyone. Death by these causes is accidental. Nor are they used by armies, terrorists or crazies to kill other people. Guns, on the other hand, are machines of death. People say they are purchased as a means of defence but to defend the user the guns would have to be used as a killing machine. Guns, used by people, do kill people. Guns by themselves do not kill people, apart from a gun that has been carelessly placed somewhere, ie a motor vehicle, by a careless person or a lazy person who did not unload the ammunition first. I am glad Australia has strict gun control. Do not jump on me with both boots and tell me that guns are imported illegally into Australia and the criminals here are well tooled up, I know these facts. But we are not allowed to go armed in public, our guns, when you are licensed to own one, must be stored in a locked gun cabinet, which cannot be removed from the wall and taken from the house, and the ammunition is to be locked elsewhere, away from the gun. Unfortunately, shooting accidents do happen. But we still have strong gun laws and I hope it stays that way.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm not sure it's fear of American heroes stopping the attack with their six-shooters. Distance is probably a factor--the US is (happily) surrounded by two vast oceans that take some effort to cross. Yes, I know some would argue that terrorists can easily slip across the Mexico/US border, but they'd still have to get to Central America first.
> 
> Frankly, I think it's fear of reprisal. As someone (LTL?) has pointed out, we could turn the territory of the IS Caliphate into glass in a matter of hours. That's unlikely to happen as long as Americans are safe behind their own borders, but even one attack on US territory would probably spell the quick and total demise of ISIS.


In this respect Australia is even safer as we are further away from anyone and do not have an borders with another country. Our nearest neighbour has the largest Muslim population in the world and they agree with Australia in its fight against Islamists. Indonesia has its own home grown terrorists who have acted violently against non believers. Australia lost so many innocent people in the Bali bombings. I am glad Indonesia is our friend.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You ASSUME that guns are only used to kill.
> http://www.gallup.com/poll/20098/gun-ownership-use-america.aspx


So, some people have guns as decoration pieces? They only have guns to hang on the wall or place on the coffee table? I assume that guns are machines of death, and they are. Why else would you own a gun if you did not intend to kill something, not necessarily a human being, but something, an animal, a bird, a reptile.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Well spoken.


That's why it's called *smart*gunlaws.org
:lol: :lol:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

georgethefifth said:


> Forgive me, I am a peace loving Canadian, who don't believe in toting guns. Would you please explain to me what guns are used for, if not to kill. I don't know anything about guns, so please excuse my ignorance. Thank you for in advance for your reply .


I have deleted my reply because it apparently intruded into someones personal question to another poster. I did not realise that I was not supposed to post a reply. Sorry about that.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> We seem to expect them to protect us from shooters. Which is impossible, as we continue to learn. Instead of focusing on the mental health problems of those such as that wacko in Sandy Hook, recognizing the shortcomings of our mental health system, then doing something about that national disgrace, the hue and cry is to arm all the teachers and pay for police in every school. We need to think about our proposed "solutions."


You're right: that is a silly solution. How can a teacher possible concern herself with shooting a shooter while trying to protect the children? And as for police in every school, it's unfortunate that so many kids these days see school as a prison; wouldn't having armed guards increase that problem?


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Canadians and Australia are part of the Commonwealth of Nations, formerly the British Empire. It must be our English inheritance that instills a strong dislike for firearms. Remember how long it took to arm the British Bobby. Australian police are now armed to the teeth but they were not armed once and it was very difficult for a copper to get a gun. I do not know about Canadian gun control laws but I am glad Australia has gun control laws in place. I am 73 years old and have never owned a gun, I have never been in a position where I needed to use a gun. I am sure if you asked a lot of gun owners if they could tell you how many times they have needed their guns to defend themselves and they gave an *honest* answer, I am sure that they would agree that they have *never* been in a position when they actually needed a gun. Some people just appear to have an extremely strong desire to own a gun, or several guns. Guns are machines of death.


I was hoping Knitter from Nebraska would reply to my question.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

georgethefifth said:


> I was hoping Knitter from Nebraska would reply to my question.


Sorry for intruding, I did not mean to be rude and intrude into a private conversation.


----------



## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Sorry for intruding, I did not mean to be rude and intrude into a private conversation.


No, no, you certainly were not intruding, I appreciated your reply. I was looking forward to what Knitter in Nebraska had to say.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> So, some people have guns as decoration pieces? They only have guns to hang on the wall or place on the coffee table? I assume that guns are machines of death, and they are. Why else would you own a gun if you did not intend to kill something, not necessarily a human being, but something, an animal, a bird, a reptile.


Competitive target shooting? It's an Olympic sport.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I know, but fortunately they haven't seem inclined to wage war against their own people as of yet. I imagine it would be a lot harder for these homegrown terrorists to attack familiar folks in familiar settings, like the neighborhood grocery, a park, or a school.


As Eve posted earlier. Last night (Tuesday), the first terrorist attack occurred in a suburb not too far from mine.

An 18 year old man, under surveillance for suspicious behaviour and threats made to our Prime Minister, met with two counter terrorism officers outside a police station, shook their hands, then produced a knife and stabbed one officer as he went to shake is hand then repeatedly stabbed the other officer multiple times. The first officer drew his gun and fatally shot the 18 year old. The officer who received multiple stab wounds was critically injured and has just regained consciousness as I write.

It's happened here and it will happen in the U.S.

And so it begins.

http://www.9news.com.au/National/2014/09/23/21/17/Fatal-shooting-in-Melbournes-southeast


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You're right: that is a silly solution. How can a teacher possible concern herself with shooting a shooter while trying to protect the children? And as for police in every school, it's unfortunate that so many kids these days see school as a prison; wouldn't having armed guards increase that problem?


The NRA wants everyone to become accustomed to firearms everywhere. Observe the recent "demonstrations" by gun activists carrying loaded assault weapons in grocery stores to prove they CAN - according to the constitution. Yeah, yeah. They can, but it's still stupid.

As for police in schools, I fail to see how this would work. First of all, the cost of hiring gun-toting guards for every school in the country would be staggering. Count in extra-curricular activities, etc. Then there is the question of how one guard could be exactly where he/she was needed at exactly the right moment. Had there been an armed guard at Sandy Hook, there is no guarantee the guard would not have been guarding the playground, the cafeteria, or just taking a piss. One guard, not knowing WHAT was happening or exactly where....?? Think of all the things that could easily go wrong, or at a minimum, differently than the fantasies of gun advocates propose.

In a bad situation, if all the teachers were shooting, the shooter was shooting, the guard was shooting, how would anyone know the good guy from the bad guy? (Same if it was a mall or other public place if armed citizens started playing hero).

There is also the problem of arming all those teachers, some of whom may not be all that stable mentally. Are we to assume (with no possible evidence) that every teacher in the country can be trusted with a gun? How about we arm the sexual predators among us and give them yet another weapon in their arsenal of ways to intimidate little children?

Someone suggested we arm returning soldiers and have them guard the schools. They have the training, but we are learning more and more every day that they can be unhinged, too.

Gun-free zones? Ridiculous. A sign is going to stop a wacko?

Health care. Meaningful health care. Aggressively providing the means necessary to HELP people. Even so, not all can be helped, but we sure as heck can't expect the police to solve this.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> The NRA wants everyone to become accustomed to firearms everywhere. Observe the recent "demonstrations" by gun activists carrying loaded assault weapons in grocery stores to prove they CAN - according to the constitution. Yeah, yeah. They can, but it's still stupid.
> 
> As for police in schools, I fail to see how this would work. First of all, the cost of hiring gun-toting guards for every school in the country would be staggering. Count in extra-curricular activities, etc. Then there is the question of how one guard could be exactly where he/she was needed at exactly the right moment. Had there been an armed guard at Sandy Hook, there is no guarantee the guard would not have been guarding the playground, the cafeteria, or just taking a piss. One guard, not knowing WHAT was happening or exactly where....?? Think of all the things that could easily go wrong, or at a minimum, differently than the fantasies of gun advocates propose.
> 
> ...


Very well thought out. Pity that the people who make policy don't think the way you do. Or at all, with all the encouragement the NRA gives them.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Lots of people think guns are fun for target shooting. I'll accept that, since a certain amount of skill is required to be proficient, just like most other sports. People like to collect them, like stamps, I guess. But one person's right to "fun" does not outweigh my right to safety. Sensible gun control is the answer.
> 
> And we need to stop expecting our law enforcement people to solve mental health problems.


Those who enjoy target shooting or collecting guns are no risk to your safety. The risk to your safety comes from criminals, who are not going to obey gun control laws in the first place.

I don't think that anyone expects law enforcement to solve our mental health problems. And in fact, IMO they are trying to put that responsibility onto family members who often have no idea that their loved ones are dangerous or don't know where to turn, when they do.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I do not know if this news item has already been posted. It is 5.03 am Wednesday and I am just out of bed. I did hear it on last night's news. It was a news flash on our 7.00 pm news, but it took place at 7.40 (EAST) which is 2 hours ahead of us .
> 
> *Man who made threats against PM shot dead, two police stabbed*
> ABC AUSTRALIA Wednesday 24 September 2014 04:51:32 AM
> ...


Scary! I guess the terrorists weren't joking. I wonder when they'll come after us.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

georgethefifth said:


> Forgive me, I am a peace loving Canadian, who don't believe in toting guns. Would you please explain to me what guns are used for, if not to kill. I don't know anything about guns, so please excuse my ignorance. Thank you for in advance for your reply .


If you'd read the article, you'd have seen this.

"The poll also shows that most gun owners use their guns for each of these three purposes: crime protection (67%), target shooting (66%), and hunting (58%)"


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Sorry for intruding, I did not mean to be rude and intrude into a private conversation.


There's no such thing as a private conversation on a public forum. Reply away!

Actually, I read your reply as it was quoted on her comment. My response would be, ask someone who actually saved lives with a gun, how they feel. Generally, people don't buy a gun with the intent of killing someone. They buy it JUST IN CASE someone tries to kill them. Not to mention those who participate in target shooting, skeet shooting and putting food on their table. Sometimes, hunting is a necessity. When I was a kid, my dad went hunting because it put food on the table. We ate pheasant every Sunday because we couldn't afford chicken.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> If you'd read the article, you'd have seen this.
> 
> "The poll also shows that most gun owners use their guns for each of these three purposes: crime protection (67%), target shooting (66%), and hunting (58%)"


As we learned from Trayvon Martin, the crime protection category can be very controversial.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Those who enjoy target shooting or collecting guns are no risk to your safety. The risk to your safety comes from criminals, who are not going to obey gun control laws in the first place.
> 
> I don't think that anyone expects law enforcement to solve our mental health problems. And in fact, IMO they are trying to put that responsibility onto family members who often have no idea that their loved ones are dangerous or don't know where to turn, when they do.


Yes, we do expect the police to protect us from the mentally ill that we put on the streets when there are no social services to help them. When families have no resources to deal with dangerous kids, we say, "too bad - your problem." Which points to the need to address the problem of mental health instead of sweeping it under the rug. It will take money and commitment, but seems like it would be money well spent.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> As Eve posted earlier. Last night (Tuesday), the first terrorist attack occurred in a suburb not too far from mine.
> 
> An 18 year old man, under surveillance for suspicious behaviour and threats made to our Prime Minister, met with two counter terrorism officers outside a police station, shook their hands, then produced a knife and stabbed one officer as he went to shake is hand then repeatedly stabbed the other officer multiple times. The first officer drew his gun and fatally shot the 18 year old. The officer who received multiple stab wounds was critically injured and has just regained consciousness as I write.
> 
> ...


The reaction from the Islamic community to the above event was to urge the authorities/community tease out the root cause as to why this young man acted in the way he did.

So why do these young men become disenfranchised from their families, friends and the community at large? Although there has been no official confirmation, it's believed this young man came from an Afghani family and was born in Australia, had recently graduated from an Islamic college and was by all intents and purposes considered well assimilated in the community. What changed?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> The reaction from the Islamic community to the above event was to urge the authorities/community tease out the root cause as to why this young man acted in the way he did.
> 
> So why do these young men become disenfranchised from their families, friends and the community at large? Although there has been no official confirmation, it's believed this young man came from an Afghani family and was born in Australia, had recently graduated from an Islamic college and was by all intents and purposes considered well assimilated in the community. What changed?


Clearly something happened at the Islamic college. Many kids get radicalized in college.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> As we learned from Trayvon Martin, the crime protection category can be very controversial.


Uh...the Trayvon Martin incident comes under the heading of "hunting,"


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Very well thought out. Pity that the people who make policy don't think the way you do. Or at all, with all the encouragement the NRA gives them.


Thank you Purl. All we seem to hear is MORE GUNS! Fear-based response.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Clearly something happened at the Islamic college. Many kids get radicalized in college.


It's not a college as in a university, it's a senior high school.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> It's not a college as in a university, it's a senior high school.


Oh. Say what you mean, please. Hi Wombat.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Oh. Say what you mean, please. Hi Wombat.


Hi dear sloth! Over here, your term 'college' is 'university' to us. We have primary school, then high school. It's not divided into junior, middle and senior like in the States.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> Oh. Say what you mean, please. Hi Wombat.


In Oz the last years of high school are spent in a college, or senior college. It is just another name for the senior part of high school. In Tasmania it was years 11 and 12 that were spent in Matriculation college, but the name is also being adopted by the other states. We used to say high school, then adopted the title senior high school for years 11 and 12, now we call it senior college or just college. My two grandsons both attend the same school, one in year 8 the other in year 12. One is said to attend Ellenbrook High School and the other Ellenbrook Senior College.

When I went to school we had very few school going through to year 12, most school only went to year 10, but that was a long time ago.

After matriculating at the end of year 12 the students can then attend either university or TAFE, Technical and Further Education colleges. The students are either 17 or 18 when they finish year 12. I understand it is different in US. I also understand that your colleges are more like our universities. There are private universities in Australia but so far there are no Muslim universities. It is at university that students become radicalised, not at school, but generally they become radicalised by listening to radical preachers at certain Mosques. Muslims do have their own schools, both primary (kindergarten, pre primary through to year 6) and secondary or high school, which includes the senior colleges. (year 7 to year 12)


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> The NRA wants everyone to become accustomed to firearms everywhere. Observe the recent "demonstrations" by gun activists carrying loaded assault weapons in grocery stores to prove they CAN - according to the constitution. Yeah, yeah. They can, but it's still stupid.
> 
> As for police in schools, I fail to see how this would work. First of all, the cost of hiring gun-toting guards for every school in the country would be staggering. Count in extra-curricular activities, etc. Then there is the question of how one guard could be exactly where he/she was needed at exactly the right moment. Had there been an armed guard at Sandy Hook, there is no guarantee the guard would not have been guarding the playground, the cafeteria, or just taking a piss. One guard, not knowing WHAT was happening or exactly where....?? Think of all the things that could easily go wrong, or at a minimum, differently than the fantasies of gun advocates propose.
> 
> ...


So, who's to protect us and our children? The police can't or don't protect us. They usually show up AFTER someone's been killed. Our laws don't protect us. Prison is no longer a deterrent. Frankly, I would be comfortable in knowing that the good guys were armed, just as the bad guys are. I would like knowing that if I were in danger, someone could come to my rescue. Why should we be like sitting ducks in gun free zones? The crazies choose places exactly because they ARE gun free zones. Shouldn't someone be allowed to stop the mass shootings? Why are we defenseless?

IMO, if teachers are willing to carry a gun to protect our children, why shouldn't we want that? The crazies love to shoot up schools. It gets lots of media attention and they become famous. The teachers who are being allowed to carry a weapon have to go through rigorous background checks. Then they receive the same firearms training that the police get. They are required to practice at a range, just like the police.

I have very personal feelings about school shootings. There was a shooting at my daughter's school, in her senior year. Thankfully, she wasn't there that day, but it was very traumatic nonetheless. There was a boy who'd lived in Lincoln, Nebraska. He lived with his mother and stepfather. He'd gotten into some trouble with the law, so they sent him to Omaha, to live with his father who was a policeman. The boy was enrolled in my daughter's school. Shortly after he arrived, he drove his car all over the football field and destroyed the turf. He was suspended from school. The next day, he took his father's service revolver and went to the school and shot the principal and the vice principal who'd suspended him. The vice principal died. We do have armed Omaha police officers in our middle and high schools. While this kid was shooting the two people in their separate offices, the police officer was in another office, down the hall, hiding under a desk. So, I happen to think that if anyone is brave enough, they should be allowed to protect others. Perhaps, this has colored my opinion. It's a terrible thing to go through!
http://abcnews.go.com/US/son-omaha-detective-shoots-school-officials-kills/story?id=12549391


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Very well thought out. Pity that the people who make policy don't think the way you do. Or at all, with all the encouragement the NRA gives them.


Perhaps, if a shooting had occurred at your child's school, you would feel differently.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> As we learned from Trayvon Martin, the crime protection category can be very controversial.


Perhaps, if it was your head that he was slamming into the concrete, you would feel differently.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Yes, we do expect the police to protect us from the mentally ill that we put on the streets when there are no social services to help them. When families have no resources to deal with dangerous kids, we say, "too bad - your problem." Which points to the need to address the problem of mental health instead of sweeping it under the rug. It will take money and commitment, but seems like it would be money well spent.


I don't expect the police to protect me from anyone. They show up after a crime was already committed, write up a police report and hopefully, investigate.

Neither do I believe that the resources aren't there. The biggest problem lies in trying to figure out who's a threat and who's not. The mentally ill do not always appear to be mentally ill. Sometimes they seem to be just fine. And even when you know they're ill, most of the time, you could never imagine that they would kill.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> The reaction from the Islamic community to the above event was to urge the authorities/community tease out the root cause as to why this young man acted in the way he did.
> 
> So why do these young men become disenfranchised from their families, friends and the community at large? Although there has been no official confirmation, it's believed this young man came from an Afghani family and was born in Australia, had recently graduated from an Islamic college and was by all intents and purposes considered well assimilated in the community. What changed?


He was probably drawn into the group at college. He'd spent his childhood being different from most of the other kids and now he was exposed to those who "seemed" to be like him. Not to mention that after 911, it was probably difficult to "look" like the terrorists. ???


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Thank you Purl. All we seem to hear is MORE GUNS! Fear-based response.


So, what should the response be?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> In Oz the last years of high school are spent in a college, or senior college. It is just another name for the senior part of high school. In Tasmania it was years 11 and 12 that were spent in Matriculation college, but the name is also being adopted by the other states. We used to say high school, then adopted the title senior high school for years 11 and 12, now we call it senior college or just college. My two grandsons both attend the same school, one in year 8 the other in year 12. One is said to attend Ellenbrook High School and the other Ellenbrook Senior College.
> 
> When I went to school we had very few school going through to year 12, most school only went to year 10, but that was a long time ago.
> 
> After matriculating at the end of year 12 the students can then attend either university or TAFE, Technical and Further Education colleges. The students are either 17 or 18 when they finish year 12. I understand it is different in US. I also understand that your colleges are more like our universities. There are private universities in Australia but so far there are no Muslim universities. It is at university that students become radicalised, not at school, but generally they become radicalised by listening to radical preachers at certain Mosques. Muslims do have their own schools, both primary (kindergarten, pre primary through to year 6) and secondary or high school, which includes the senior colleges. (year 7 to year 12)


Interesting! Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Perhaps, if it was your head that he was slamming into the concrete, you would feel differently.


Who slammed who's head?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> In Oz the last years of high school are spent in a college, or senior college. It is just another name for the senior part of high school. In Tasmania it was years 11 and 12 that were spent in Matriculation college, but the name is also being adopted by the other states. We used to say high school, then adopted the title senior high school for years 11 and 12, now we call it senior college or just college. My two grandsons both attend the same school, one in year 8 the other in year 12. One is said to attend Ellenbrook High School and the other Ellenbrook Senior College.
> 
> When I went to school we had very few school going through to year 12, most school only went to year 10, but that was a long time ago.
> 
> After matriculating at the end of year 12 the students can then attend either university or TAFE, Technical and Further Education colleges. The students are either 17 or 18 when they finish year 12. I understand it is different in US. I also understand that your colleges are more like our universities. There are private universities in Australia but so far there are no Muslim universities. It is at university that students become radicalised, not at school, but generally they become radicalised by listening to radical preachers at certain Mosques. Muslims do have their own schools, both primary (kindergarten, pre primary through to year 6) and secondary or high school, which includes the senior colleges. (year 7 to year 12)


Not in Victoria. High school from year 7 through 12 and years 11 and 12 students study the Victorian Certificate of Education which used to be Higher School Certificate. In the '70s it was called matriculation.

Isn't it weird how much things vary from state to state?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So, what should the response be?


Evidence based.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't expect the police to protect me from anyone. They show up after a crime was already committed, write up a police report and hopefully, investigate.
> 
> Neither do I believe that the resources aren't there. The biggest problem lies in trying to figure out who's a threat and who's not. The mentally ill do not always appear to be mentally ill. Sometimes they seem to be just fine. And even when you know they're ill, most of the time, you could never imagine that they would kill.


Well, we found something we can agree on. The biggest problem lies in figuring out who's a threat.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

O


Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So, who's to protect us and our children? The police can't or don't protect us. They usually show up AFTER someone's been killed. Our laws don't protect us. Prison is no longer a deterrent. Frankly, I would be comfortable in knowing that the good guys were armed, just as the bad guys are. I would like knowing that if I were in danger, someone could come to my rescue. Why should we be like sitting ducks in gun free zones? The crazies choose places exactly because they ARE gun free zones. Shouldn't someone be allowed to stop the mass shootings? Why are we defenseless?
> 
> IMO, if teachers are willing to carry a gun to protect our children, why shouldn't we want that? The crazies love to shoot up schools. It gets lots of media attention and they become famous. The teachers who are being allowed to carry a weapon have to go through rigorous background checks. Then they receive the same firearms training that the police get. They are required to practice at a range, just like the police.
> 
> ...


I would never let a child of mine attend a school at which teachers carried guns.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Not in Victoria. High school from year 7 through 12 and years 11 and 12 students study the Victorian Certificate of Education which used to be Higher School Certificate. In the '70s it was called matriculation.
> 
> Isn't it weird how much things vary from state to state?


I wish they would standardise the schools across all the states. Tasmania had years 1 - 6, plus pre school and kindy, in primary school, and kids went to high school in year 7. In WA is used to be year 8 when they started high school, now it is year 7. It is very hard for people who have to change states because of work commitments, such as people working in the defence forces.

Grandson had a meltdown just over two years ago and went from a straight A student to one who may not graduate from year 12. He is not doing the TEE so no hope of Uni, although he may go back when he is older and do a mature age matric. He had problems with one teacher, a maths teacher, but I think there is more there than my daughter will admit. They are Mormons so he could have been getting stick from the teacher over his religion. He was a PEAC student in primary. (Primary Extension and Challenge (PEAC) is a part-time program for public school children in Years 5, 6 and 7. Children are tested in Year 4 and are selected to participate in a range of innovative and challenging programs offered in a variety of ways. Children are withdrawn from regular class to attend PEAC programmes). Do they have the PEAC over there in the big smoke?


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> O
> 
> I would never let a child of mine attend a school at which teachers carried guns.


I agree with you, I can see so many problems and so many mistakes. The thought is just too scary to contemplate.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Who slammed who's head?


Martin was slamming Zimmerman's head into the concrete. That's why Zimmerman felt as if he had to shoot him.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Those who enjoy target shooting or collecting guns are no risk to your safety. The risk to your safety comes from criminals, who are not going to obey gun control laws in the first place.
> 
> I don't think that anyone expects law enforcement to solve our mental health problems. And in fact, IMO they are trying to put that responsibility onto family members who often have no idea that their loved ones are dangerous or don't know where to turn, when they do.


No, the real threat to your safety comes from legal gun owners who don't know what they're doing. There have been at least two incidents recently where someone stranded on the road has rung a doorbell and been shot in the head by a homeowner who couldn't wait to find out whether he was at risk.

Or someone like the man (former sheriff, I think) in a movie theater who shot someone else because the other person wouldn't stop texting (even though the movie hadn't started). Criminals are usually interesting in theft and would prefer not to kill someone, which is a lot more troublesome for them. It's the supposedly honest but scared ones you have to watch out for.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Evidence based.


To me, the evidence shows that the good guys should be armed. No one is protecting the innocent.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> O
> 
> I would never let a child of mine attend a school at which teachers carried guns.


As I stated, any volunteers go through rigorous background checks and the same firearms training as the police. Not just any teacher would qualify. 
What do you propose we do to protect children at school? Schoolchildren have become targets.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> There's no such thing as a private conversation on a public forum. Reply away!
> 
> Actually, I read your reply as it was quoted on her comment. My response would be, ask someone who actually saved lives with a gun, how they feel. Generally, people don't buy a gun with the intent of killing someone. They buy it JUST IN CASE someone tries to kill them. Not to mention those who participate in target shooting, skeet shooting and putting food on their table. Sometimes, hunting is a necessity. When I was a kid, my dad went hunting because it put food on the table. We ate pheasant every Sunday because we couldn't afford chicken.


Hunting is fine. Skeet shooting is fine. The ones who worry me are the 67% who have guns because they're afraid someone wants to kill them. Who are these people, and where do they live? And why do they stay there, if life is so dangerous?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> No, the real threat to your safety comes from legal gun owners who don't know what they're doing. There have been at least two incidents recently where someone stranded on the road has rung a doorbell and been shot in the head by a homeowner who couldn't wait to find out whether he was at risk.
> 
> Or someone like the man (former sheriff, I think) in a movie theater who shot someone else because the other person wouldn't stop texting (even though the movie hadn't started). Criminals are usually interesting in theft and would prefer not to kill someone, which is a lot more troublesome for them. It's the supposedly honest but scared ones you have to watch out for.


Just because the media plays up the idiots, doesn't mean that law abiding gun owners are more dangerous than the criminals they're protecting themselves from. There will always be idiots. Just as criminals will always have guns.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Hunting is fine. Skeet shooting is fine. The ones who worry me are the 67% who have guns because they're afraid someone wants to kill them. Who are these people, and where do they live? And why do they stay there, if life is so dangerous?


They are anybody and they live anywhere. It used to be that we were safe in our homes and neighborhoods. We didnt even lock our doors. Now even our locks cant keep us safe. There are break ins, robberies and murders everywhere. It probably has to do with drugs, in one way or another. We've got easy accessibility to drugs these days. Addicts need money to buy drugs.

I give up! I'm too tired to think anymore. Good night everyone!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> O
> 
> I would never let a child of mine attend a school at which teachers carried guns.


Nor would I. What bothered me about Nebraska's story of the boy whose mother sent him to live with his policeman father is why was the service revolver sitting around where the kid could get it? Would it have been a happy ending if this severely troubled kid had been killed, too?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Martin was slamming Zimmerman's head into the concrete. That's why Zimmerman felt as if he had to shoot him.


No, Zimmerman _said_ Martin was slamming his head into the concrete. Z had been following Martin even after police told him to stop. Maybe (assuming Z was telling the truth, which I don't believe for a minute) Martin was acting in self-defense, trying to stop this armed man from following him around.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Just because the media plays up the idiots, doesn't mean that law abiding gun owners are more dangerous than the criminals they're protecting themselves from. There will always be idiots. Just as criminals will always have guns.


Please. If we allow idiots to own guns, do we deserve what we get? Not if someone innocent gets shot.

My husband was once held up at gunpoint, in a nice suburban neighborhood. He said it was obvious that all they wanted (there were two of them) was his wallet; they were very reasonable and said they wouldn't shoot him as long as he gave them no trouble. He gave them his wallet, and they drove away.

Never mind. I will never again say you're not the usual type of conservative. You swallow every slogan the right-wing passes around. You believe every story Fox News or Newsnet or Breitbart tells.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm with you.

In order to be effective, a teacher would have to be armed and trained correctly. They would need to be in the correct position in the school. And then there's the consideration of cross-fire. No. Simple answers don't work here.



cookiequeen said:


> O
> 
> I would never let a child of mine attend a school at which teachers carried guns.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Update to my previous story.

*Police name man shot dead in Melbourne by anti terrorist officers*

http://www.news.net/article/1978847/Top+Stories/?referid=114rt

Earlier reports said Haider made threats against the Prime Minster, but Acting Australian Federal Police Commissioner Andrew Colvin refuted the claims.
ABC AUSTRALIA Wednesday 24 September 2014 12:33:11 PM

Police have named the 18-year-old man who was shot dead after stabbing two officers from the Joint Counter Terrorism team outside a Melbourne police station last night.
Abdul Numan Haider was the "person of interest" who was expected to attend an interview at the Endeavour Hills Police Station when the incident occurred, senior police sources confirmed.
Victoria Police Chief Commissioner Ken Lay said Haider, who was under investigation and had his passport cancelled, was allegedly seen last week with an Islamic State flag.
"There's certainly information that he was present at the shopping centre in the last week or so with the flag that appeared to be an ISIS flag," Chief Commissioner Lay said.
"It's not an offence but clearly it drew our attention to this person and we had a conversation with this person."
Haider, whose family are from Afghanistan, had also been associated with the radical Islamic group called Al-Furqan. 
It is understood he had recently moved away from the group.
Based in Springvale, in Melbourne's south-east, associates of Al-Furqan were the targets of terrorism raids by Victoria Police and the Australian Federal Police in 2012.
Chief Commissioner Lay said Haider attacked a police officer who tried to shake his hand outside the station, and then stabbed another officer, about 7:40pm (AEST) on Tuesday.
"When our police members have approached this young man, one's extended his hand to shake his hand and the response has been he's been stabbed in the arm," he said.
"The attacker's then turned on the second police member and stabbed him three or four times in the body and in the head.
"The first wounded member has then shot and killed the young man."
One of the injured officers is from the Australian Federal Police (AFP) and the other is a Victoria Police member, they were both rushed to hospital.
Chief Commissioner Lay said both police officers required surgery.
Earlier reports said Haider made threats against the Prime Minster, but Acting Australian Federal Police Commissioner Andrew Colvin refuted the claims.
"This is early stages of an investigation ... What I will say is and what I can be very confident on is there were no specific threats made," he said.
The dead man's car is parked at a childcare centre next to the police station and the area is locked down.
Natalie Morales, who works at the childcare centre, said staff were unable to contact parents this morning to tell them the facility was closed, because the contact lists were in the building.
"That can happen anywhere around Australia, unfortunately it happened next door to the childcare I work at," Ms Morales said.
"Even if it happened during the day, we have a pin code that only the staff and families know, so no-one can access the centre even if we had children in the centre."
Speaking in Hawaii while en route to a UN Security Council meeting in New York, Prime Minister Tony Abbott said the Melbourne incident was "nasty" and showed the threat from extremists was real.
"Obviously, this indicates that there are people in our community who are capable of very extreme acts," he said.
"It also indicates that the police will be constantly vigilant to protect us against people who would do us harm."
Mr Abbott said he had spoken to the wives of both police officers involved.
Chief Commissioner Lay said the stab wounds to the police officers were significant and required surgery, but that both officers were in a stable condition this morning.
"Our AFP colleague underwent surgery overnight for some significant injuries, he's come through that surgery it appears pretty well, he's in a serious but stable condition," Chief Commissioner Lay said.
"Our Victorian Police member has had quite a significant stab wound to his arm, I understand he'll undergo surgery today to repair some ligament and nerve damage.
"So the physical injuries will heal quick enough and obviously we need to think about the psychological stuff and give these people as much support as we possibly can."
Victorian Premier Denis Napthine said it was important that the incident did not divide the community. 
"Let me make it very, very clear, one of the greatest strengths, one of the greatest assets we have here in Victoria is our harmonious, diverse, multi cultural, multi-faith community," Dr Napthine said. 
"We need to preserve and protect that. We need to enhance and build on that. 
"We shouldn't let a single incident divide that. We need to show each other respect, be tolerant and remain united." 
He said authorities were working together to ensure the safety of the community.
"It is imperative that we do all that we can to reassure all members of the Victorian community that everything is being done to protect our safety and making sure that our community continues to work together as a whole Victorian community," Dr Napthine said.
Leaders of Melbourne's Islamic community have criticised police over their investigation into the fatal shooting.
Gaith Krayem from the Islamic Council of Victoria said police were quick to jump to conclusions.
"I was disappointed with the immediate press conference police held last night. It was held three hours after the event, and they drew conclusions immediately," Mr Krayem said.
"There needs to be a proper process as there always should be when police are involved in a fatality."
Mr Krayen said the public needed to reserve their judgement until a full and objective investigation has taken place.
"Immediately, individuals such as this unfortunately are given these labels of a radical, or a terrorist, or an extremist," he said.
"Unfortunately, because of the environment we're in, as soon as you label somebody like that, people don't want to then question what occurred.
"We don't know really what happened when this young man arrived at the police station.
"What we do know is that there's an 18-year-old young man who is dead this morning, there are two police officers in hospital, there is a family who is grieving."
Copyright © 2014 ABC Australia. All rights reserved. Disclaimer


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'm with you.
> 
> In order to be effective, a teacher would have to be armed and trained correctly. They would need to be in the correct position in the school. And then there's the consideration of cross-fire. No. Simple answers don't work here.


In addition to knowing how to use a gun, the teacher also has to be aware of what the children are doing, show them where to stay to be safe, keep them calm. In other words, have eyes in the back of her/his head and superhuman presence of mind.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> As I stated, any volunteers go through rigorous background checks and the same firearms training as the police. Not just any teacher would qualify.
> What do you propose we do to protect children at school? Schoolchildren have become targets.


I don't feel that rigorous background checks are enough--didn't some teacher in Utah just shoot herself in the leg when her concealed pistol went off? Of course it was an accident, but that's just the point--accidents happen, as with that poor ten-year old girl with the Uzi who shot and killed her instructor by mistake.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> No, Zimmerman _said_ Martin was slamming his head into the concrete. Z had been following Martin even after police told him to stop. Maybe (assuming Z was telling the truth, which I don't believe for a minute) Martin was acting in self-defense, trying to stop this armed man from following him around.


Exactly, Purl. When the case broke I had exactly the same thought--Martin was pounced on by a guy he had every reason to believe was armed and dangerous. And you know? He was right!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> No, Zimmerman _said_ Martin was slamming his head into the concrete. Z had been following Martin even after police told him to stop. Maybe (assuming Z was telling the truth, which I don't believe for a minute) Martin was acting in self-defense, trying to stop this armed man from following him around.


Observe Zimmerman's trouble with the law more recently. The guy is dangerous and got away with murder.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> In addition to knowing how to use a gun, the teacher also has to be aware of what the children are doing, show them where to stay to be safe, keep them calm. In other words, have eyes in the back of her/his head and superhuman presence of mind.


OR...if they hear shooting from the hallway or another room, they just go and stop it, thereby reducing the number of casualties.

We live in a different world now, than when we were younger. It's a world where evil can walk right into our schools and start killing until it's stopped. Who will stop it?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Exactly, Purl. When the case broke I had exactly the same thought--Martin was pounced on by a guy he had every reason to believe was armed and dangerous. And you know? He was right!


Well, let's not pay any attention to the FACTS that came out at trial.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Observe Zimmerman's trouble with the law more recently. The guy is dangerous and got away with murder.


In your opinion, but you weren't there! Neither were you in the courtroom when the facts came out. It amazes me how people will hold onto their beliefs despite evidence to the contrary.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

A gut, gezunt yor to all and happy Wednesday!


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Well, let's not pay any attention to the FACTS that came out at trial.


I'm not sure what facts you're referring to, Nebraska. If I remember correctly, Martin was returning from a trip to a nearby 7-11 when Zimmerman spotted him. Zimmerman thought he looked suspicious and called the police, who told him to wait until a squad car arrived. Zimmerman then trailed Martin in his car and, at some point, climbed out with his pistol and ordered Martin to stop. Martin, believing he was about to be assaulted, fought back and Zimmerman then shot him.

Be honest--if a stranger accosted you on a dark street, wouldn't you figure he or she was up to no good and try to defend yourself?


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> A gut, gezunt yor to all and happy Wednesday!


Good Morning Ms. Cookie of the Queens and may your gut ge zunt be all yor's today.

What ever that mean that I think means but am sure it doesn't mean.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> In your opinion, but you weren't there! Neither were you in the courtroom when the facts came out. It amazes me how people will hold onto their beliefs despite evidence to the contrary.


That's pretty funny, K


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> A gut, gezunt yor to all and happy Wednesday!


And I also say "Wishing all a good, healthy, creative year full of happiness, peace & prosperity."


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Observe Zimmerman's trouble with the law more recently. The guy is dangerous and got away with murder.


I really do believe he's deranged--can't seem to ditch the Superhero costume and quit playing Captain American:

"George Zimmerman 'patrolling' Central Florida shop after gun theft
Owner of Pompano Pat's in DeLand says Zimmerman not working for him

Published On: Aug 06 2014 11:45:22 AM EDT Updated On: Jul 29 2014 06:23:24 PM EDT

George Zimmerman 'patrolling' Central Florida shop after gun theft
DeLAND, Fla. -
Although he's not a hired security officer, George Zimmerman has been "patrolling" outside a Volusia County gun shop after it was recently robbed, according to the store owner.

Pat Johnson told Local 6 that Zimmerman is not an employee of his DeLand store Pompano Pat's, which sells firearms, ammunition and motorcycles.

Johnson said that Zimmerman, on his own accord, has been spotted outside the store since the robbery earlier this month. The thieves stole rifles worth up to $5,000 and two mini-bikes, according to Johnson.

"I didn't OK it. I didn't know about it. I didn't authorize it. I didn't pay for it," Johnson said. "He had just watched Facebook and the news and just took it upon himself to come up here and sit."

Johnson added that although he knows Zimmerman, he has not hired him as a security officer.

"I sent him a text message telling him not to come back to the store anymore," Johnson said.

DeLand police officers stopped to investigate why Zimmerman was parked in back of the store just after midnight on Sunday morning.

Video from the dash camera of the police cruiser shows a closer view of their exchange.

"Zimmerman informed me that he was sitting behind the business with the permission of the owner," the officer wrote in his incident report.

"Did Pat's hire you?" the officer asked him.

"No, no," Zimmerman responded.

"You're just doing this as a friend," the officer asked Zimmerman.

"He's a friend of mine," he replied.

Pompano Pat's made headlines last July when it offered Zimmerman a free gun days after his murder trial ended.

Johnson, who is running for mayor, said he believes politics are somehow behind the attention being given to Zimmerman's activities at his store.

"My campaign is pretty much over. But my intention was always just to try and make this a better and safer place to live," Johnson said. "This whole Zimmerman situation has nothing to do with my campaign."

Johnson said the police have also been out to the store at least three times for death threats since the Zimmerman report.

Zimmerman, a former neighborhood watch leader, was acquitted of murder last summer in the death of Trayvon Martin."


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Perhaps, if it was your head that he was slamming into the concrete, you would feel differently.


Was there any proof of that? Zimmerman has gotten into so much trouble since that I will accept Green's hunting statement as more factual.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

SQM said:


> Was there any proof of that? Zimmerman has gotten into so much trouble since that I will accept Green's hunting statement as more factual.


Sorry can't resist this one. If my head was slammed into concret I would have a heck of a head ache.

Lifes to short to worry about what may or may not have happen.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> I'm with you.
> 
> In order to be effective, a teacher would have to be armed and trained correctly. They would need to be in the correct position in the school. And then there's the consideration of cross-fire. No. Simple answers don't work here.


Teachers struggle with the Smart Board. I am going to give them a gun?????????


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> A gut, gezunt yor to all and happy Wednesday!


And a Shana Tova to the Great Al with the great avatar.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Well, let's not pay any attention to the FACTS that came out at trial.


Facts? The only facts that came out at the trial was that the jury had met the man they regarded as George - like an old friend - early and that they didn't care about the black boy who'd been stalked and murdered. Everything else was Z's word against nobody's. In fact, if I recall correctly, when the story first broke, the pictures of Z showed no injury to his head or face; those showed up later.

His behavior since the trial would indicate that he's far from the law-abiding sweetheart the gun promoters have made him seem.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> A gut, gezunt yor to all and happy Wednesday!


Thank you, CQ. Everyone can use one of those (the year, but also the Wednesday). Today's DH's birthday, so I get away with one cake for two purposes.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> And I also say "Wishing all a good, healthy, creative year full of happiness, peace & prosperity."


Thank you. Same to you. I fear we may have to skip the "peace" part, but happiness, prosperity - and health - would be nice.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Sorry can't resist this one. If my head was slammed into concret I would have a heck of a head ache.
> 
> Lifes to short to worry about what may or may not have happen.


I like your joke. Unfortunately, it's no joke that a teenage boy was killed.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Good Morning Ms. Cookie of the Queens and may your gut ge zunt be all yor's today.
> 
> What ever that mean that I think means but am sure it doesn't mean.


Gut=good; gezunt=healthy or strong; yor=year.

I wish you and your family a gut gezunt yor.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Teachers struggle with the Smart Board. I am going to give them a gun?????????


I would consider home schooling if that became an actual practice.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm not sure what facts you're referring to, Nebraska. If I remember correctly, Martin was returning from a trip to a nearby 7-11 when Zimmerman spotted him. Zimmerman thought he looked suspicious and called the police, who told him to wait until a squad car arrived. Zimmerman then trailed Martin in his car and, at some point, climbed out with his pistol and ordered Martin to stop. Martin, believing he was about to be assaulted, fought back and Zimmerman then shot him.
> 
> Be honest--if a stranger accosted you on a dark street, wouldn't you figure he or she was up to no good and try to defend yourself?


No. If I thought someone was following me, I'd run away. I wouldn't turn around and beat them up.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> I know, but fortunately they haven't seem inclined to wage war against their own people as of yet. I imagine it would be a lot harder for these homegrown terrorists to attack familiar folks in familiar settings, like the neighborhood grocery, a park, or a school.


If we're talking about home-grown American terrorists, I think it might be easier for someone who is known enough around his/her neighborhood to be ignored, having been classed as someone who belongs where they are and hasn't done anything to attract attention. Even better, I live near a shopping mall and am well know at the businesses I patronize. I always end up chatting with employees. I also appear to be a pudgy granny lady.If I could be recruited and radicalized by some terrorist organization, I'd make a great suicide bomber. I could hide a baby elephant under my clothes and no one would suspect a thing. Sorry, that was kind of facetious. My point is that I'm virtually invisible and, as a result, I have freedom of access to all kinds of places.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> If we're talking about home-grown American terrorists, I think it might be easier for someone who is known enough around his/her neighborhood to be ignored, having been classed as someone who belongs where they are and hasn't done anything to attract attention. Even better, I live near a shopping mall and am well know at the businesses I patronize. I always end up chatting with employees. I also appear to be a pudgy granny lady.If I could be recruited and radicalized by some terrorist organization, I'd make a great suicide bomber. I could hide a baby elephant under my clothes and no one would suspect a thing. Sorry, that was kind of facetious. My point is that I'm virtually invisible and, as a result, I have freedom of access to all kinds of places.


Laugh Laugh. In New York, we have police terrorist teams that move around the city, sort of practicing with German Shepherds. I stopped and chatted with them and asked them if they would ever take me for a terrorist with bombs. They said they would overlook me but the dog wouldn't. Laugh Laugh


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Talking about home grown terrorists, does Edward Snowden count as a terrorist or a traitor. I see he has been awarded an alternative Nobel Peace Prize, the Right Livelihood Award . No, it is not awarded to people who have created havoc instead of peace, it is awarded by a group, the annual Right Livelihood Award, to people who they believe have helped the cause of world peace. The Right Livelihood Award foundation typically honors grass-roots activists and says it's "not an award for the world's political, scientific or economic elite.", Edward Snowden divulged military secrets and then ran and hid in Russia, I would not call Edward Snowden a peace activist, I would call him a coward and a traitor. It has also been reported that he has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.

STOCKHOLM (AP)  Edward Snowden was among the winners Wednesday of a Swedish human rights award, sometimes referred to as the "alternative Nobel," for his disclosures of top secret surveillance programs.
The decision to honor the former National Security Agency contractor with the Right Livelihood Award appeared to cause a diplomatic headache for Sweden's Foreign Ministry, which withdrew the prize jury's permission to use its media room for the announcement.
Snowden split the honorary portion of the award with Alan Rusbridger, editor of British newspaper The Guardian, which has published a series of articles on government surveillance based on documents leaked by Snowden.
The 1.5 million kronor ($210,000) cash portion of the award was shared by Pakistani human rights activist Asma Jahangir, Basil Fernando of the Asian Human Rights Commission and U.S. environmentalist Bill McKibben.
Created in 1980, the annual Right Livelihood Award honors efforts that founder Jacob von Uexkull felt were being ignored by the Nobel Prizes.
Foundation director Ole von Uexkull  the award creator's nephew  said all winners have been invited to the Dec. 1 award ceremony in Stockholm, though he added it's unclear whether Snowden can attend.
"We will start discussions with the Swedish government and his lawyers in due course to discuss the potential arrangements for his participation," von Uexkull told The Associated Press.
Snowden, who has reportedly also been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, remains exiled in Russia since leaking top secret NSA documents to journalists last year. He has been charged under the U.S. Espionage Act and could face up to 30 years in prison.
Though the honorary award doesn't include any money, the foundation would offer to help pay Snowden's legal costs, von Uexkull said.
The announcement had been set for Thursday but it was communicated early after a leak to Swedish broadcaster SVT.
Von Uexkull said the foundation had been denied access to the Swedish Foreign Ministry's media room, where it has announced the awards since 1995. He provided an email in which the ministry said it had closed the room to "external events" for security reasons, but said he believed the decision was linked to the fact that Snowden was among the laureates.
The Foreign Ministry referred questions to Foreign Minister Carl Bildt's spokesman, Erik Zsiga, who didn't return calls and an email seeking comment.
The award foundation cited Snowden's "courage and skill" in revealing the extent of government surveillance and praised Rusbridger "for building a global media organization dedicated to responsible journalism in the public interest."
In a statement, Rusbridger said he was "delighted" to share the award with Snowden "because I think he was a whistleblower who took considerable risks with his own personal freedom in order to tell society about things that people needed to know."
Jahangir is a human rights lawyer who has defended women, children, religious minorities and the poor in Pakistan, the award citation said.
Fernando, originally from Sri Lanka, led the Hong Kong-based Asian Human Rights Commission for nearly two decades and now serves as its director of policy and programs.
McKibben is founder of 350.org, a grass-roots environmental movement aimed at spurring action to fight climate change.
The Right Livelihood Award is typically announced just ahead of the Nobel Prize announcements, which this year will begin on Oct. 6. There is no connection between the two, except Jacob von Uexkull established his prize after failing to persuade the Nobel Foundation to expand the categories for its prestigious awards. A wealthy stamp dealer, he sold his collection to fund the prize.
The Right Livelihood Award foundation typically honors grass-roots activists and says it's "not an award for the world's political, scientific or economic elite."
___


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> If we're talking about home-grown American terrorists, I think it might be easier for someone who is known enough around his/her neighborhood to be ignored, having been classed as someone who belongs where they are and hasn't done anything to attract attention. Even better, I live near a shopping mall and am well know at the businesses I patronize. I always end up chatting with employees. I also appear to be a pudgy granny lady.If I could be recruited and radicalized by some terrorist organization, I'd make a great suicide bomber. I could hide a baby elephant under my clothes and no one would suspect a thing. Sorry, that was kind of facetious. My point is that I'm virtually invisible and, as a result, I have freedom of access to all kinds of places.


Same thing with the "sleepers" during the cold war. These people were assimilated into American society, way of life, language right down to the slang of the area, way of dress, mannerisms, etc. No one would expect a neighbor. That's what the Russians (in this case) strived for. You are right. You would be invisible and the perfect person to recruit.

Just think of what people say that are interviewed after a neighbor kills their family, or goes on a shooting spree. How many neighbors or even family members would have thought that person would have committed such a crime.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

I have just read that the French prisonet, Herve Gourdel, held by Jund al-Khilafah, Algerian extremists allied with the Islamic State group, has been executed.

PARIS (AP)  A terrorism watchdog says Algerian extremists allied with the Islamic State group have killed a French hostage.
A group calling itself Jund al-Khilafah said after abducting Herve Gourdel on Sunday that he would be killed within 24 hours unless France ended its airstrikes against Islamic State fighters in Iraq. The French government has insisted it will not back down.
U.S. terrorism watchdog SITE Intelligence Group says Jund al-Khilafah released a video online Wednesday saying Gourdel has been killed. He was a 55-year-old mountaineering guide from Nice. The French government would not immediately comment.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

I heard earlier that US air strikes had killed the head of the Khorasan group, an Al-Qaeda offshoot, but I now see that these claims have been denied.

US airstrikes in Syria have had an "important impact," US national security adviser Susan Rice said Wednesday, but it is unclear if they have killed the head of the Khorasan group, an Al-Qaeda offshoot.
The strikes by US warplanes and cruise missiles targeted the Islamic State movement as well as the little-known Khorasan group, which Washington said has said was plotting attacks against US targets. 
"We think the strikes had an impact, important impact," Rice told NBC news, 36 hours after Washington expanded its bombing campaign from Iraq to Syria, backed by allies in the region.
"Obviously, this won't be the last of our efforts. But this was a first wave."
She added: "We feel very good about our success. We'll continue to take a look and we'll be doing more."
Rice said the United States at this point is unable to confirm that the airstrikes succeeded in killing Khorasan's alleged leader, long-standing Qaeda operative Muhsin al-Fadhli.
"We can't confirm that at this stage. We've seen reports on social media to that effect. We will continue to look for signs as to whether or not that's, in fact, the case," Rice told NBC.
The coalition aims to destroy the Islamic State group, which controls a swath of territory in Iraq and Syria, has murdered two US journalists and a British aid worker and is locked in a brutal war with Iraqi and Kurdish authorities


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Jon Stewart had a hysterical routine last night regarding the splinter formations of terrorist groups after we go in and try to destroy one:

In addition to ISIL we are bombing the Khorasan Group, which is a splinter of Al Qaeda.

The routine had a splinter group of Khorasan forming called "Al Kill You All" and, after we bomb that one out of existence, there would be a splinter group of that one formed called "Al Fa-aq You Up." :-D

In other words, we are in for a never-ending war in the Middle East as we play Whack-A-Mole and cause the formation of new splinter groups each time.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No. If I thought someone was following me, I'd run away. I wouldn't turn around and beat them up.


You're not a teenage boy; at least, I don't think you are.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Talking about home grown terrorists, does Edward Snowden count as a terrorist or a traitor. I see he has been awarded an alternative Nobel Peace Prize, the Right Livelihood Award . No, it is not awarded to people who have created havoc instead of peace, it is awarded by a group, the annual Right Livelihood Award, to people who they believe have helped the cause of world peace. The Right Livelihood Award foundation typically honors grass-roots activists and says it's "not an award for the world's political, scientific or economic elite.", Edward Snowden divulged military secrets and then ran and hid in Russia, I would not call Edward Snowden a peace activist, I would call him a coward and a traitor. It has also been reported that he has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.


I think what Snowden divulged were secrets of illegal actions taken by so-called security agencies. That would make him at least a whistleblower, and neither a terrorist nor a traitor. Of course he had to leave the country, if he wanted to live. The NSA is not known for its sense of humor or its velvet glove.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

An American fighting for isis in Syria, was killed.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/american-douglas-mcauthur-mccain-dies-fighting-isis-syria-n189081


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No. If I thought someone was following me, I'd run away. I wouldn't turn around and beat them up.


The thing is KFN, inserting yourself into past situations demonstrates your bias. Now, if you were to 'insert' yourself into possible future scenarios, your potential actions may better represent who you really are.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I think what Snowden divulged were secrets of illegal actions taken by so-called security agencies. That would make him at least a whistleblower, and neither a terrorist nor a traitor. Of course he had to leave the country, if he wanted to live. The NSA is not known for its sense of humor or its velvet glove.


I agree, Purl. I consider him a hero. Had it not been for him (or someone like him), we would not have known about the extensive abuse of power and "data mining" of our personal lives by the US government. He's hiding because otherwise he would have been killed. I don't think I would have the courage to do what he did, knowing he may never see his family or country again.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Talking about home grown terrorists, does Edward Snowden count as a terrorist or a traitor. I see he has been awarded an alternative Nobel Peace Prize, the Right Livelihood Award . No, it is not awarded to people who have created havoc instead of peace, it is awarded by a group, the annual Right Livelihood Award, to people who they believe have helped the cause of world peace. The Right Livelihood Award foundation typically honors grass-roots activists and says it's "not an award for the world's political, scientific or economic elite.", Edward Snowden divulged military secrets and then ran and hid in Russia, I would not call Edward Snowden a peace activist, I would call him a coward and a traitor. It has also been reported that he has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.
> 
> STOCKHOLM (AP)  Edward Snowden was among the winners Wednesday of a Swedish human rights award, sometimes referred to as the "alternative Nobel," for his disclosures of top secret surveillance programs.
> The decision to honor the former National Security Agency contractor with the Right Livelihood Award appeared to cause a diplomatic headache for Sweden's Foreign Ministry, which withdrew the prize jury's permission to use its media room for the announcement.
> ...


Ironic since the Swedes are seeking extradition of Julian Assange.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> The thing is KFN, inserting yourself into past situations demonstrates your bias. Now, if you were to 'insert' yourself into possible future scenarios, your potential actions may better represent who you really are.


She asked me what I would do. I answered. My answer would be the same in the future as it would have been in the past. I'm not a fighter!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I agree, Purl. I consider him a hero. Had it not been for him (or someone like him), we would not have known about the extensive abuse of power and "data mining" of our personal lives by the US government. He's hiding because otherwise he would have been killed. I don't think I would have the courage to do what he did, knowing he may never see his family or country again.


We agree again!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> Teachers struggle with the Smart Board. I am going to give them a gun?????????


And while locked and loaded, we expect teachers to direct the students, keep them safe and somehow keep their attention. Leaps tall buildings at a single bound.....


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> If we're talking about home-grown American terrorists, I think it might be easier for someone who is known enough around his/her neighborhood to be ignored, having been classed as someone who belongs where they are and hasn't done anything to attract attention. Even better, I live near a shopping mall and am well know at the businesses I patronize. I always end up chatting with employees. I also appear to be a pudgy granny lady.If I could be recruited and radicalized by some terrorist organization, I'd make a great suicide bomber. I could hide a baby elephant under my clothes and no one would suspect a thing. Sorry, that was kind of facetious. My point is that I'm virtually invisible and, as a result, I have freedom of access to all kinds of places.


Think of all the people who enjoy similar invisibility. All it takes is one who is not as he/she appears. Excuse me. I'm scaring myself.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Think of all the people who enjoy similar invisibility. All it takes is one who is not as he/she appears. Excuse me. I'm scaring myself.


This is relevant to the situation here following the stabbing of the 2 police officers. The authorities are telling us to remain calm etc., but then I learned today that it's likely he was not acting alone. Not to suggest that I hadn't assumed there are others out there but hearing it gave me a bit of a jolt.

All police have been told to carry their guns at all times (even in police station), and to be hyper-vigilant. There is a lot of fear about possible 'lone wolf' attacks in the city and suburbia. My son walks everywhere and he's expressed concern about being out there.

It's really worrying.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I agree, Purl. I consider him a hero. Had it not been for him (or someone like him), we would not have known about the extensive abuse of power and "data mining" of our personal lives by the US government. He's hiding because otherwise he would have been killed. I don't think I would have the courage to do what he did, knowing he may never see his family or country again.


Thanks, D. I'm in good company.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm conflicted. I respect and agree with PoorPurl and DGreen almost all the time, but Edward Snowdon is a separate case.

I don't like the man. He is no whistleblower. He fled the country and provided secrets to our enemies rather than staying and presenting his concerns to our government.

We are definitely at risk from abroad. I think his actions betray us.

I keep trying to understand. I miss the company. Keep the opinions coming.



Poor Purl said:


> Thanks, D. I'm in good company.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'm conflicted. I respect and agree with PoorPurl and DGreen almost all the time, but Edward Snowdon is a separate case.
> 
> I don't like the man. He is no whistleblower. He fled the country and provided secrets to our enemies rather than staying and presenting his concerns to our government.
> 
> ...


I agree with you, Dame. Whatever good Snowdon did was canceled out by his taking refuge in Russia and feeding officials there secret information to protect his status as an asylum seeker. I would have considered the man a hero had he remained in the country and continued his battle in court and from a prison cell. But he didn't, of course. IMO he's a traitor and an awful coward, really a political gigolo or "kept man" of the Russians.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> I'm conflicted. I respect and agree with PoorPurl and DGreen almost all the time, but Edward Snowdon is a separate case.
> 
> I don't like the man. He is no whistleblower. He fled the country and provided secrets to our enemies rather than staying and presenting his concerns to our government.
> 
> ...


I strongly agree with you. He did not stay and take his medicine, he fled to Russia and hid, with his tail between his legs. I think he has done his country a great disservice by his actions in publishing the secret information he gathered in his job.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Laugh Laugh. In New York, we have police terrorist teams that move around the city, sort of practicing with German Shepherds. I stopped and chatted with them and asked them if they would ever take me for a terrorist with bombs. They said they would overlook me but the dog wouldn't. Laugh Laugh


Same with me. At airports they practically shove me through security. It makes me laugh, too, even though it's a pretty serious idea. I wonder if some of the Muslim attitudes about women are keeping them from tapping what seems to me a gold mine of opportunity. I'm sure there area bunch of old women who would jump at the chance, especially as a sacrifice for the men in their families.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

We also have ordinary Americans who were born here, probably not even the first generation of their families so they don't need the training the sleepers did. I'm wildly appreciative of the fact that, so far, ordinary Americans aren't acting as terrorists. Yet.


soloweygirl said:


> Same thing with the "sleepers" during the cold war. These people were assimilated into American society, way of life, language right down to the slang of the area, way of dress, mannerisms, etc. No one would expect a neighbor. That's what the Russians (in this case) strived for. You are right. You would be invisible and the perfect person to recruit.
> 
> Just think of what people say that are interviewed after a neighbor kills their family, or goes on a shooting spree. How many neighbors or even family members would have thought that person would have committed such a crime.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Same with me. At airports they practically shove me through security. It makes me laugh, too, even though it's a pretty serious idea. I wonder if some of the Muslim attitudes about women are keeping them from tapping what seems to me a gold mine of opportunity. I'm sure there area bunch of old women who would jump at the chance, especially as a sacrifice for the men in their families. Of course, I'm glad this isn't happening.


Maybe as we age we lose our idealism so few old ladies may want to blow themselves up. It seems like only very young women are getting involved in terror. But while I am also invisible to the greater population, except for men on rollators, it is good to know that dogs still see me. Hi Fido.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I think what Snowden divulged were secrets of illegal actions taken by so-called security agencies. That would make him at least a whistleblower, and neither a terrorist nor a traitor. Of course he had to leave the country, if he wanted to live. The NSA is not known for its sense of humor or its velvet glove.


I agree. :thumbup:


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

damemary said:


> Think of all the people who enjoy similar invisibility. All it takes is one who is not as he/she appears. Excuse me. I'm scaring myself.


It's pretty scary. I was a messenger for a law office in DC in the first half of 1971. Unlike employees of messenger services, I didn't ride a bike or motor cycle and dressed in business clothes. There was far, far less security back then, but I am still amazed at the places I could go without any security check-in. One day I even had to deliver something to J. Edgar Hoover's office and just breezed down the halls until I got to his office. The only place that had strict security was the State Department. One HAD to stop at the security desk and check in. If one was expected by whoever a message was being delivered to, one went right through and if one wasn't expected one left the message at the security desk.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> It's pretty scary. I was a messenger for a law office in DC in the first half of 1971. Unlike employees of messenger services, I didn't ride a bike or motor cycle and dressed in business clothes. There was far, far less security back then, but I am still amazed at the places I could go without any security check-in. One day I even had to deliver something to J. Edgar Hoover's office and just breezed down the halls until I got to his office. The only place that had strict security was the State Department. One HAD to stop at the security desk and check in. If one was expected by whoever a message was being delivered to, one went right through and if one wasn't expected one left the message at the security desk.


Did you see Hoover? Was he in a dress?


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Did you see Hoover? Was he in a dress?


Unfortunately, there were two offices for secretaries between me and old J. Edgar. I only got as far as the first secretary and she was wearing a dress. God knows what Hoover was wearing or doing...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for the reality check. That's what I'm thinking too.



susanmos2000 said:


> I agree with you, Dame. Whatever good Snowdon did was canceled out by his taking refuge in Russia and feeding officials there secret information to protect his status as an asylum seeker. I would have considered the man a hero had he remained in the country and continued his battle in court and from a prison cell. But he didn't, of course. IMO he's a traitor and an awful coward, really a political gigolo or "kept man" of the Russians.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks. The current score is 3 to 2 in favor of traitor. Keep the votes coming.



EveMCooke said:


> I strongly agree with you. He did not stay and take his medicine, he fled to Russia and hid, with his tail between his legs. I think he has done his country a great disservice by his actions in publishing the secret information he gathered in his job.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Don't give the creeps any ideas. hugs



MaidInBedlam said:


> Same with me. At airports they practically shove me through security. It makes me laugh, too, even though it's a pretty serious idea. I wonder if some of the Muslim attitudes about women are keeping them from tapping what seems to me a gold mine of opportunity. I'm sure there area bunch of old women who would jump at the chance, especially as a sacrifice for the men in their families.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> Thanks for the reality check. That's what I'm thinking too.


I disagree. Snowden could have been put into jail for life or maybe have gotten the death penalty (treason)for what most of us seem to think was a noble act. Whistle Blowers in America get shafted. Plus you don't bleep with our Government. He did the right thing.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

As they say, 'If you want a real friend, get a dog. '



SQM said:


> Maybe as we age we lose our idealism so few old ladies may want to blow themselves up. It seems like only very young women are getting involved in terror. But while I am also invisible to the greater population, except for men on rollators, it is good to know that dogs still see me. Hi Fido.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Is this two more votes for whistleblower? 3 to 4. Plus SQM = 3 to 5 whistleblower. Any others?

I find it interesting how this topic is different for people who usually agree.



MaidInBedlam said:


> I agree. :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Was that only 1971? Good example how security has changed.



MaidInBedlam said:


> It's pretty scary. I was a messenger for a law office in DC in the first half of 1971. Unlike employees of messenger services, I didn't ride a bike or motor cycle and dressed in business clothes. There was far, far less security back then, but I am still amazed at the places I could go without any security check-in. One day I even had to deliver something to J. Edgar Hoover's office and just breezed down the halls until I got to his office. The only place that had strict security was the State Department. One HAD to stop at the security desk and check in. If one was expected by whoever a message was being delivered to, one went right through and if one wasn't expected one left the message at the security desk.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think he only dressed for special occasions. Secrets were kept in those days, no?



SQM said:


> Did you see Hoover? Was he in a dress?


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> We also have ordinary Americans who were born here, probably not even the first generation of their families so they don't need the training the sleepers did. I'm wildly appreciative of the fact that, so far, ordinary Americans aren't acting as terrorists. Yet.


What about Bill Ayers, Timothy McVeigh, the Fort Hood shooter? Aren't they Americans that are terrorists?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I disagree. Snowden could have been put into jail for life or maybe have gotten the death penalty (treason)for what most of us seem to think was a noble act. Whistle Blowers in America get shafted. Plus you don't bleep with our Government. He did the right thing.


He would have died in an "accident" or "suicide", before he was ever brought to trial.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> He would have died in an "accident" or "suicide", before he was ever brought to trial.


exactly - my favorite one - he hanged himself in his cell.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> He would have died in an "accident" or "suicide", before he was ever brought to trial.


Of course. That's why it was a good idea for him to leave the country.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> What about Bill Ayers, Timothy McVeigh, the Fort Hood shooter? Aren't they Americans that are terrorists?


What did Ayers do that even remotely compares to McVeigh or Fort Hood?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> What did Ayers do that even remotely compares to McVeigh or Fort Hood?


Ha. Ha. I was scratching my head at that one. Ha. Ha.

I just saw the first commercial advertising this new war - Northrop Grumman. The commercial was high-tech and interesting. Futuristic.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> exactly - my favorite one - he hanged himself in his cell.


My favorite is when they shoot themselves in the head. TWICE!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Ha. Ha. I was scratching my head at that one. Ha. Ha.
> 
> I just saw the first commercial advertising this new war - Northrop Grumman. The commercial was high-tech and interesting. Futuristic.


They're advertising WAR?!?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> What did Ayers do that even remotely compares to McVeigh or Fort Hood?


He struck terror in people. A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist. There aren't degrees of terrorism.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> They're advertising WAR?!?


They've got to sell it to the people. Look what happened when they didn't do it for Vietnam.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> He struck terror in people.  A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist. There aren't degrees of terrorism.


And just how did he do that? I was around in the days of the Weathermen, or whatever group he was with. They did nothing I would call terrifying.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> And just how did he do that? I was around in the days of the Weathermen, or whatever group he was with. They did nothing I would call terrifying.


You don't consider bombing to be terror?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Just ask the researcher at UW-Madison that was killed in a bombing of a Laboratory in 1970.


Can't do that, but you might be able to. I don't have a direct line to the hereafter. What was the name of the researcher? And was it Ayers who exploded the bomb?

And if so, why wasn't he tried for treason? Why has he been able to start a whole new career, instead of spending his life behind bars. There were several GOP presidents between the 60s and the 2008; if there were evidence against him, why is he free?

Or could it be that he is just another bogey man, one of the names the right gets all worked up about for no earthly reason?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You don't consider bombing to be terror?


As I recall, the only people killed by Weather Underground bombs was two of their own members. Joey says there was also someone at U of W, but was that directly caused by Ayers? I don't remember that incident.

Please, where does your information come from - I know you must have good sources to be so certain in your opinion.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> As I recall, the only people killed by Weather Underground bombs was two of their own members. Joey says there was also someone at U of W, but was that directly caused by Ayers? I don't remember that incident.
> 
> Please, where does your information come from - I know you must have good sources to be so certain in your opinion.


I just checked the net for details of a bombing at the U of W and found this link, but you being an American may be able to find more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterling_Hall_bombing

It does not mention the name Ayers, but it does mention the names of the people who planted the bomb and describes the bomb and outlines the reasons for the bombing.

The bombers were Karleton Armstrong, Dwight Armstrong, David Fine, and Leo Burt. They called themselves the "New Year's Gang",


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

I did a little more research and found the following article

http://www.theawl.com/2011/10/why-the-tea-party-hates-occupy-wall-street

The article includes such statements as


> "Smelly."Erick Erickson, CNN Contributor and editor-in-chief of RedState.com.
> "Before I arrived, I could smell the stench of their unwashed bodies."Scott Brooks, 2010 candidate for Minnesota state legislature.
> "These days a 'progressive' is someone who believes indoor plumbing is a tool of oppression."James Taranto, Wall Street Journal writer
> "Who knew pubic lice would be so down with protesting the banksters, too?!"Andrew Breitbart, founder of BigGovernment.com


I just love the


> wishful ignorance of a large conservative group desperate to believe Ayers' unaccounted for years in the 1970s were spent smuggling Obama into the United States from Kenya


The four bombers are well known. All UW students, they included Karleton Armstrong, Dwight Armstrong, David Fine and Leo Burt. Three served three to seven years on prison. Burt remains in hiding to this day. They called themselves the "New Year's Gang." And as far as anyone knows, Ayers never met any of them.
So when I asked Conrad about her claims, on Facebook and on the radio, that Ayers was responsible for the Sterling Hall bombing, she told me, "You would have to ask him about that."
"Are you going to ask him the hard questions too?" asked Gail Chicks, standing behind me.
Chicks, a member of the Tea Party Wisconsin 9/12 Project, had come to protest Ayers as well. Recently, Chicks modeled a pink dress (worn by a man who poured a beer on a Republican state legislator) when the dress was auctioned on eBay to raise funds for the GOP.
Of Ayers' connection to the Sterling Hall bomb, Chicks said, "His group was. I don't know if he specifically was. It slays me because he is killing Americans."
Though Ayers connection to Sterling Hall is surely advanced by the wishful ignorance of a large conservative group desperate to believe Ayers' unaccounted for years in the 1970s were spent smuggling Obama into the United States from Kenya, liberal Hollywood actually hasn't helped. The 1988 Sidney Lumet film Running on Empty melts the on-the-run lives of Ayers and his wife with a crime based on the Sterling Hall bombing.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

I suppose you could call Julian Assange the predecessor to Snowdon. He created the 'Wikileak' site and published secret documents on the net.

http://www.biography.com/people/julian-assange-20688499#sexual-assault-controversy

Soon after that event, sexual assault charges appeared from two women in Sweden. Assange claimed this was a construct of the U.S. in retaliation for his leaking top secret documents. He is currently holed up in the Ecuador Embassy in London. I think these guys have done a massive service to the world. We need more like them.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Can't do that, but you might be able to. I don't have a direct line to the hereafter. What was the name of the researcher? And was it Ayers who exploded the bomb?
> 
> And if so, why wasn't he tried for treason? Why has he been able to start a whole new career, instead of spending his life behind bars. There were several GOP presidents between the 60s and the 2008; if there were evidence against him, why is he free?
> 
> Or could it be that he is just another bogey man, one of the names the right gets all worked up about for no earthly reason?


All charges against him were dropped due to illegal evidence gathering by the FBI. That doesn't make him innocent. He was able to have a career in academia because for some reason, radical liberalism is an admired trait throughout higher education industry. In other words, radical liberalism has taken over our institutes of higher learning. He fit right in.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I suppose you could call Julian Assange the predecessor to Snowdon. He created the 'Wikileak' site and published secret documents on the net.
> 
> http://www.biography.com/people/julian-assange-20688499#sexual-assault-controversy
> 
> Soon after that event, sexual assault charges appeared from two women in Sweden. Assange claimed this was a construct of the U.S. in retaliation for his leaking top secret documents. He is currently holed up in the Ecuador Embassy in London. I think these guys have done a massive service to the world. We need more like them.


Assange is a creep. He started ranting against the Jews for some crazy reason when he was under pressure. He can rot - Snowden is a much better sort.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> All charges against him were dropped due to illegal evidence gathering by the FBI. That doesn't make him innocent. He was able to have a career in academia because for some reason, radical liberalism is an admired trait throughout higher education industry. In other words, radical liberalism has taken over our institutes of higher learning. He fit right in.


Ha Ha Dear Nebs. So would you.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> As I recall, the only people killed by Weather Underground bombs was two of their own members. Joey says there was also someone at U of W, but was that directly caused by Ayers? I don't remember that incident.
> 
> Please, where does your information come from - I know you must have good sources to be so certain in your opinion.


Are you saying that people can't be terrorized by buildings blowing up, if no one is killed? I disagree. The Weather Underground was clearly a domestic terror group. My information comes from common knowledge. Do you want me to find a source for you? BTW, I think it was three of their members who were killed while making a bomb. But I could be wrong. It was just dumb luck that no one else was killed when they blew up their townhouse.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I suppose you could call Julian Assange the predecessor to Snowdon. He created the 'Wikileak' site and published secret documents on the net.
> 
> http://www.biography.com/people/julian-assange-20688499#sexual-assault-controversy
> 
> Soon after that event, sexual assault charges appeared from two women in Sweden. Assange claimed this was a construct of the U.S. in retaliation for his leaking top secret documents. He is currently holed up in the Ecuador Embassy in London. I think these guys have done a massive service to the world. We need more like them.


I agree! The people need to wake up and realize that there's an alternative reality out there. It's as if we live in the matrix and people only believe what they're told by the authorities.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Assange is a creep. He started ranting against the Jews for some crazy reason when he was under pressure. He can rot - Snowden is a much better sort.


Being antisemitic is despicable but he's still done a service to the people of the world. I'd not heard about his ranting against the Jews but perhaps he's fallen for the whole "Jewish banker" thing? The fact that the Rothschild's started the whole evil empire of central banking, doesn't have anything to do with the Jewish people. Those in the "evil empire", come from all over the world. They wish to control and rule over the Jews along with everyone else.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Ha Ha Dear Nebs. So would you.


NOT!!!


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

damemary said:


> Was that only 1971? Good example how security has changed.


Yes, security at the government buildings I had to go to was very lax compared to today. I thought it was pretty lax in 1971. There were still tours trough the first floor of the White . That was pretty new. It was once possible to take a guided tour through the first and second floors. This probably isn't allowed any either, but I also attended committee hearings. I was in the same room with Ted Kennedy once. I thought this was very cool.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> What about Bill Ayers, Timothy McVeigh, the Fort Hood shooter? Aren't they Americans that are terrorists?


I didn't omit the acts of McVeigh and the Fort Hood shooter on purpose. Actually, I'm surprised there aren't more people who followed in their footsteps. Loots like it's still possible to fly under the radar in the US. Look at the Boston Marathon bombing. Two young men who looked pretty ordinary managed to plant two bombs. Consider how many people make it through TSA security at airports. Seems to me that most of the increased security since 911 uses the Keystone Kops who take their orders from the Three Stooges. And please don't use what I've said to slam the President. It only proves you're a poor excuse for an American citizen.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Just ask the researcher at UW-Madison that was killed in a bombing of a Laboratory in 1970.


How about bothering to remember the Kent State shootings in 1970?


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> My favorite is when they shoot themselves in the head. TWICE!


I've always liked "shot while escaping".
.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Being antisemitic is despicable but he's still done a service to the people of the world. I'd not heard about his ranting against the Jews but perhaps he's fallen for the whole "Jewish banker" thing? The fact that the Rothschild's started the whole evil empire of central banking, doesn't have anything to do with the Jewish people. Those in the "evil empire", come from all over the world. They wish to control and rule over the Jews along with everyone else.


He was angry with a journo for a piece he wrote about a colleague of Assange's who is Jewish (but denies the holocaust), concerned that it would stop Jewish people from supporting Wikileaks. During that private conversation he mentioned to this journo that it felt like he (the journo) and a few other journos (who happen to be Jewish), were in a conspiracy to prevent support for Wikileaks.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Being antisemitic is despicable but he's still done a service to the people of the world. I'd not heard about his ranting against the Jews but perhaps he's fallen for the whole "Jewish banker" thing? The fact that the Rothschild's started the whole evil empire of central banking, doesn't have anything to do with the Jewish people. Those in the "evil empire", come from all over the world. They wish to control and rule over the Jews along with everyone else.


"The whole 'Jewish banker' thing" is more likely a result of anti-Semitism than a cause.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Just ask the researcher at UW-Madison that was killed in a bombing of a Laboratory in 1970.


Which Ayers was not implicated in.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> "The whole 'Jewish banker' thing" is more likely a result of anti-Semitism than a cause.


I'm not so sure about that. The central bankers have been robbing us blind! The dollar has lost 90% of it's value since the beginning of the federal reserve.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I just checked the net for details of a bombing at the U of W and found this link, but you being an American may be able to find more.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterling_Hall_bombing
> 
> ...


And not the Weather Underground. But the right will continue to tie all these actions to Ayers, and by association to Obama, because Obama and Ayers lived in the same city and met once, shortly.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I did a little more research and found the following article
> 
> http://www.theawl.com/2011/10/why-the-tea-party-hates-occupy-wall-street
> 
> ...


I'm glad that you enjoy research, apparently, because I haven't much time just now for it. The Tea Party vs. Occupy is an interesting thing. What Occupy has done is raise money to help people at risk of foreclosure keep their homes; what the Tea Party has done is make it impossible to run the country in any sensible way.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> What did Ayers do that even remotely compares to McVeigh or Fort Hood?


Ayers and his Weather Underground were responsible for numerous acts of domestic terrorism. Too bad his long term goals of creating a new communist society and killing all those that resisted failed, where as McVeigh and the Fort Hood shooter succeeded. The old saying that those who can't ... - teach, is true in Ayers' case.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> All charges against him were dropped due to illegal evidence gathering by the FBI. That doesn't make him innocent. He was able to have a career in academia because for some reason, radical liberalism is an admired trait throughout higher education industry. In other words, radical liberalism has taken over our institutes of higher learning. He fit right in.


Maybe "radical liberalism is an admired trait throughout higher education industry," as you put it, because people involved in higher ed. tend to have more education than the ordinary person and probably more reasoning ability.

But truly the most radical people operating today are the 5 right-wing members of the Supreme Court.

And even if all charges against Ayers were dropped at one time, if he had really been guilty of the dastardly deeds attributed to him, the gov't would have produced other charges and further evidence. Republicans have a tendency to jail people for all kinds of trumped-up charges. See, for instance, Don Siegelman, former Democratic governor of Alabama, who's been in prison on charges that nobody else has been convicted of, sentenced by a judge, Mark Fuller, with friends like Karl Rove. (Fuller has been in the news recently after his wife's 911 call that he was beating her.)


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Are you saying that people can't be terrorized by buildings blowing up, if no one is killed? I disagree. The Weather Underground was clearly a domestic terror group. My information comes from common knowledge. Do you want me to find a source for you? BTW, I think it was three of their members who were killed while making a bomb. But I could be wrong. It was just dumb luck that no one else was killed when they blew up their townhouse.


Common knowledge is certainly common but rarely knowledge.

I'm saying that whatever Ayers did (and he was only one person, not the entire Weather Underground), it did not come anywhere near McVeigh or the Fort Hood shooter. Ayers has said (I can't verify the truth of this) that they planted their bombs in offices they expected to be empty, in order not to hurt anyone, and the truth is very few people were hurt.

I was an adult at the time they were operating, and I don't recall anyone claiming to feel terrorized by them. Most of us were inconvenienced - even angered - by some of the demonstrations, but terrorized? No.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree! The people need to wake up and realize that there's an alternative reality out there. It's as if we live in the matrix and people only believe what they're told by the authorities.


Unless they get their information from Fox News.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I didn't omit the acts of McVeigh and the Fort Hood shooter on purpose. Actually, I'm surprised there aren't more people who followed in their footsteps. Loots like it's still possible to fly under the radar in the US. Look at the Boston Marathon bombing. Two young men who looked pretty ordinary managed to plant two bombs. Consider how many people make it through TSA security at airports. Seems to me that most of the increased security since 911 uses the Keystone Kops who take their orders from the Three Stooges. And please don't use what I've said to slam the President. It only proves you're a poor excuse for an American citizen.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :XD: :XD: :XD: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> He was angry with a journo for a piece he wrote about a colleague of Assange's who is Jewish (but denies the holocaust), concerned that it would stop Jewish people from supporting Wikileaks. During that private conversation he mentioned to this journo that it felt like he (the journo) and a few other journos (who happen to be Jewish), were in a conspiracy to prevent support for Wikileaks.


So not "the whole Jewish banker thing"? Interesting information you posted.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Maybe "radical liberalism is an admired trait throughout higher education industry," as you put it, because people involved in higher ed. tend to have more education than the ordinary person and probably more reasoning ability.
> 
> But truly the most radical people operating today are the 5 right-wing members of the Supreme Court.
> 
> And even if all charges against Ayers were dropped at one time, if he had really been guilty of the dastardly deeds attributed to him, the gov't would have produced other charges and further evidence. Republicans have a tendency to jail people for all kinds of trumped-up charges. See, for instance, Don Siegelman, former Democratic governor of Alabama, who's been in prison on charges that nobody else has been convicted of, sentenced by a judge, Mark Fuller, with friends like Karl Rove. (Fuller has been in the news recently after his wife's 911 call that he was beating her.)


Nonsense! All of it!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Why is Eric Holder leaving?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm not so sure about that. The central bankers have been robbing us blind! The dollar has lost 90% of it's value since the beginning of the federal reserve.


And it's Jews who run the Fed?

And pretty much all currency has lost the same percentage.

And here's a headline from today's New York Times: *
Buoyant Dollar Recovers Its Luster, Underlining Rebound in U.S. Economy* The full article is at http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/09/25/buoyant-dollar-underlines-resurgence-in-u-s-economy/?_php=true&_type=blogs&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20140926&_r=0


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Ayers and his Weather Underground were responsible for numerous acts of domestic terrorism. Too bad his long term goals of creating a new communist society and killing all those that resisted failed, where as McVeigh and the Fort Hood shooter succeeded. The old saying that those who can't ... - teach, is true in Ayers' case.


Sure, sure...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Nonsense! All of it!


Maybe it's nonsense, but it's true (except for my opening, which I meant as a joke).

Where did you go to college?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Maybe "radical liberalism is an admired trait throughout higher education industry," as you put it, because people involved in higher ed. tend to have more education than the ordinary person and probably more reasoning ability.
> 
> But truly the most radical people operating today are the 5 right-wing members of the Supreme Court.
> 
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Poor Purl said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe "radical liberalism is an admired trait throughout higher education industry," as you put it, because people involved in higher ed. tend to have more education than the ordinary person and probably more reasoning ability.
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Did Osama Bin Laden fly a plane into the twin towers?
> 
> Was Ayers the leader of the Weather underground?
> 
> Same difference.


But it wasn't the Weather Underground who bombed the lab where the researcher was killed. Still, keep trying guilt by association. Maybe one day it will work for you.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

http://www.tpnn.com/2014/09/26/breaking-fired-employee-who-beheaded-woman-recently-converted-to-islam-tried-to-convert-co-workers/


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Will someone please explain to me what the Weatherman Underground has to do with anything? Geez. Seems like there are far more contemporary problems and controversies to fight about...!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> http://www.tpnn.com/2014/09/26/breaking-fired-employee-who-beheaded-woman-recently-converted-to-islam-tried-to-convert-co-workers/


Hi Bumps. How are you? I like your autumnal avatar. I like the word autumnal.

Is your link a new version of going postal?


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Will someone please explain to me what the Weatherman Underground has to do with anything? Geez. Seems like there are far more contemporary problems and controversies to fight about...!


If you didn't live at ground zero of the various 60s protest movements you can't understand what was happening then or how what seems to be ancient history to you isn't ancient at all. Go sit in a corner, put your dunce cap on and keep quiet until your brain finally decides to reenter your skull. Here's a hint. What seems to be contemporary and controversial now are just links in a chain.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Will someone please explain to me what the Weatherman Underground has to do with anything? Geez. Seems like there are far more contemporary problems and controversies to fight about...!


When the subject of terrorism comes up, the right bring up Bill Ayers, whom they're trying to sell as a terrorist on the scale of Patrick McVeigh and also as a friend of Obama. If Ayers himself didn't do what they accuse him of, then the Weather U. did, making him now as bad as Osama bin Laden.

Goodness, can't you keep up? :roll:


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> When the subject of terrorism comes up, the right bring up Bill Ayers, whom they're trying to sell as a terrorist on the scale of Patrick McVeigh and also as a friend of Obama. If Ayers himself didn't do what they accuse him of, then the Weather U. did, making him now as bad as Osama bin Laden.
> 
> Goodness, can't you keep up? :roll:


It is Timothy McVeigh not Patrick.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> It is Timothy McVeigh not Patrick.


True. I wonder who Patrick McVeigh is.

The rest of the message was okay?


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> True. I wonder who Patrick McVeigh is.
> 
> The rest of the message was okay?


A suspected IRA member who was fatally shot in the back by plainclothes soldiers on 12 May 1972. The soldiers were said to be members of the British armys Military Reaction Force (MRF), which nationalists have claimed operated as a death squad in the bloodiest year of the conflict.

Is this the one you seek?


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> It is Timothy McVeigh not Patrick.


Do you know who Patrick McVeigh was?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> A suspected IRA member who was fatally shot in the back by plainclothes soldiers on 12 May 1972. The soldiers were said to be members of the British armys Military Reaction Force (MRF), which nationalists have claimed operated as a death squad in the bloodiest year of the conflict.
> 
> Is this the one you seek?


Your Patrick was way more interesting than mine. This was who I was thinking of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_McVey . He played a reporter on a tv series called Big Town, which I never missed.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Things are heating up in our world. Last quarter to go, but I think the Hawks have it in the bag.

Wombat will be celebrating tonight.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Things are heating up in our world. Last quarter to go, but I think the Hawks have it in the bag.
> 
> Wombat will be celebrating tonight.


Eve, such a spectacular win for Hawthorn! The cup stays in Melbourne...YAY!!!!!


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Eve, such a spectacular win for Hawthorn! The cup stays in Melbourne...YAY!!!!!


Sydney v Hawthorn, Full Time 11.8.74 - 21.11.137
I knew you would be celebrating.

We're a happy team at Hawthorn
We're the Mighty Fighting Hawks.
We love our Club, and we play to win,
Riding the bumps with a grin (at Hawthorn).
Come what may, you'll find us striving
Team work is the thing that talks,
One for all and all for one
Is the way we play at Hawthorn.
We are the Mighty Fighting Hawks.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Sydney v Hawthorn, Full Time 11.8.74 - 21.11.137
> I knew you would be celebrating.
> 
> We're a happy team at Hawthorn
> ...


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Oh. So we have some knitting jocks in our midst. 

Is it football soccer season all over the world?

I am glad things heated up for your team and that Wombat posted a happy post.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Oh. So we have some knitting jocks in our midst.
> 
> Is it football soccer season all over the world?
> 
> I am glad things heated up for your team and that Wombat posted a happy post.


In a month our grandiosely named World Series will be on, and we can have our own fun. Though I've been a Yankee fan my entire life (at least between the ages of 9 and 25), I am rooting for your team, the Cubs.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

How did you know we are Cub fans? My Evil Republican Twin named his dog Wrigley. Do you always root for losers?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> How did you know we are Cub fans? My Evil Republican Twin named his dog Wrigley. Do you always root for losers?


Hardly. Didn't I say I was a Yankee fan? But they're no fun. I had to choose between the Mets and the Cubs, and the Cubs have been losers for a much longer time. Now, that's fun.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Hardly. Didn't I say I was a Yankee fan? But they're no fun. I had to choose between the Mets and the Cubs, and the Cubs have been losers for a much longer time. Now, that's fun.


Yeah for over 100 years. They did have a strong season less than a 100 years and I think they even won the pennant.

Baseball is boring and slow. I think football is now the American pastime. All sports are dull. Sorry.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> Yeah for over 100 years. They did have a strong season less than a 100 years and I think they even won the pennant.
> 
> Baseball is boring and slow. I think football is now the American pastime. All sports are dull. Sorry.


I have admitted it before: on Saturdays I watch my first alma mater (Minnesota Golden Gophers) and on Sunday it's the,Minnesota Vikings. And about a month from now NBA basketball starts. My vices. It could be worse, right?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Oh. So we have some knitting jocks in our midst.
> 
> Is it football soccer season all over the world?
> 
> I am glad things heated up for your team and that Wombat posted a happy post.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> In a month our grandiosely named World Series will be on, and we can have our own fun. Though I've been a Yankee fan my entire life (at least between the ages of 9 and 25), I am rooting for your team, the Cubs.


I haven't been paying attention to sports reports (I usually tune them out...) but as far as I'm concerned it's "Go A's" as in the Oakland Athletics.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> If you didn't live at ground zero of the various 60s protest movements you can't understand what was happening then or how what seems to be ancient history to you isn't ancient at all. Go sit in a corner, put your dunce cap on and keep quiet until your brain finally decides to reenter your skull. Here's a hint. What seems to be contemporary and controversial now are just links in a chain.


Links so weak as to be imaginary.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I haven't been paying attention to sports reports (I usually tune them out...) but as far as I'm concerned it's "Go A's" as in the Oakland Athletics.


Who originally hailed from Philadelphia.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> Oh. So we have some knitting jocks in our midst.
> 
> Is it football soccer season all over the world?
> 
> I am glad things heated up for your team and that Wombat posted a happy post.


Not soccer, please. Aussie Rules Footy......Australian Rules Football for those who do not speak strine. Aussie Rules is Australia's most followed religion. Devotees never miss a ritual.....match....and hang on every word the coach utters. No more footy until next year now, what are we going to do? sob sob sob Oh I know, we can watch the videos and listen to the post match comments. But, please, NEVER confuse Aussie Rules with Soccer, that is a hanging offence down under in Oz. I can see someone following Rugger as a second preference.

Hey Wombat, how about a Grand Final derby between the Eagles and the Dockers here at Subi Oval instead of the MCG?????


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Yeah for over 100 years. They did have a strong season less than a 100 years and I think they even won the pennant.
> 
> Baseball is boring and slow. I think football is now the American pastime. All sports are dull. Sorry.


I wonder how football will continue now that it's obviously been causing brain damage.

Baseball is deliberate; football is random and dangerous.

This says it all:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> Yeah for over 100 years. They did have a strong season less than a 100 years and I think they even won the pennant.
> 
> Baseball is boring and slow. I think football is now the American pastime. All sports are dull. Sorry.


But your football players are all rugged and geared up and look like they are going on a space walk. Have you seen our Aussie Rules players. Those dinky little short shorts and those footy jerseys with no sleeves? 36 fit and virile young men with rippling bums and bulging muscles everywhere. Never mind the fact that they cannot string two words together in a coherent sentence or sing in tune, they are not Mensa candidates or auditioning for the opera, they are there to be enjoyed. Have you ever watched an Aussie Rules match and see how fast they run, how far they run, and how far they can kick the ball? Yes, they kick the ball they do not just grab it and run. Aussie Rules has four quarters, each lasting 25 minutes, with a break in between each quarter, longer break at half time than quarter time and three quarter time. Total match time is two and a half hours. 100,000 at yesterday's AFL grand final and many people could not get tickets. People flew over from Perth to go to the match. Flying distance is 2,730 km or 1,697 miles and flight time takes about 4 hours 15 minutes, plus extra time at the airport. You have to arrive at check in one hour before departure. Some people actually drive, and the driving distance is 2,128 km or 3,424 miles and takes a couple of days. The flight takes a shorter route over the Great Australian Bite.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I wonder how football will continue now that it's obviously been causing brain damage.
> 
> Baseball is deliberate; football is random and dangerous.
> 
> ...


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Not soccer, please. Aussie Rules Footy......Australian Rules Football for those who do not speak strine. Aussie Rules is Australia's most followed religion. Devotees never miss a ritual.....match....and hang on every word the coach utters. No more footy until next year now, what are we going to do? sob sob sob Oh I know, we can watch the videos and listen to the post match comments. But, please, NEVER confuse Aussie Rules with Soccer, that is a hanging offence down under in Oz. I can see someone following Rugger as a second preference.
> 
> Hey Wombat, how about a Grand Final derby between the Eagles and the Dockers here at Subi Oval instead of the MCG?????


Why not? That would be a match made in heaven and well worth the trip to WA. I loved Subiaco by the way!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> But your football players are all rugged and geared up and look like they are going on a space walk. Have you seen our Aussie Rules players. Those dinky little short shorts and those footy jerseys with no sleeves? 36 fit and virile young men with rippling bums and bulging muscles everywhere. Never mind the fact that they cannot string two words together in a coherent sentence or sing in tune, they are not Mensa candidates or auditioning for the opera, they are there to be enjoyed. Have you ever watched an Aussie Rules match and see how fast they run, how far they run, and how far they can kick the ball? Yes, they kick the ball they do not just grab it and run. Aussie Rules has four quarters, each lasting 25 minutes, with a break in between each quarter, longer break at half time than quarter time and three quarter time. Total match time is two and a half hours. 100,000 at yesterday's AFL grand final and many people could not get tickets. People flew over from Perth to go to the match. Flying distance is 2,730 km or 1,697 miles and flight time takes about 4 hours 15 minutes, plus extra time at the airport. You have to arrive at check in one hour before departure. Some people actually drive, and the driving distance is 2,128 km or 3,424 miles and takes a couple of days. The flight takes a shorter route over the Great Australian Bite.


Don't forget, footy is played on a soccer field, which is much bigger than our "gridiron." The ball is different and can also be passed by striking it as we do a volleyball. I have had the pleasure of attending many Aussie rules football games with my dear departed friend, and have also stayed up into the wee hours at a sports pub, watching the finals on television. In attendance were throngs of Aussies drinking vats of Foster's. Such wonderful memories!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Don't forget, footy is played on a soccer field, which is much bigger than our "gridiron." The ball is different and can also be passed by striking it as we do a volleyball. I have had the pleasure of attending many Aussie rules football games with my dear departed friend, and have also stayed up into the wee hours at a sports pub, watching the finals on television. In attendance were throngs of Aussies drinking vats of Foster's. Such wonderful memories!


It's great that you have such an interest in Aussie rules! I watch gridiron whenever there is a match on television because I'm keen to learn the rules. I have to say, it's still a bit of a mystery but I'm getting there.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> Yeah for over 100 years. They did have a strong season less than a 100 years and I think they even won the pennant.
> 
> Baseball is boring and slow. I think football is now the American pastime. All sports are dull. Sorry.


Here are a couple of videos explaining our great game. Those ladies with a delicate disposition may need to retire to the kitchen and made a cuppa. But do watch a little bit and enjoy. I am sure you will not say that sport is boring after watching our heroes in action.











Now remember when you are watching the following, this is just a footy game between two rival footy teams, it is not all out warfare, it is how we relax and play sport. If this is how we play sport just imagine what our battle hardened defence force troops act in a war situation? Perhaps we should send this video to ISIS and tell them that our footy players are on the way to sort them out.











This one is very long but it does describe our footy. Well worth watching if you are interested in footy.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> But your football players are all rugged and geared up and look like they are going on a space walk. Have you seen our Aussie Rules players. Those dinky little short shorts and those footy jerseys with no sleeves? 36 fit and virile young men with rippling bums and bulging muscles everywhere. Never mind the fact that they cannot string two words together in a coherent sentence or sing in tune, they are not Mensa candidates or auditioning for the opera, they are there to be enjoyed. Have you ever watched an Aussie Rules match and see how fast they run, how far they run, and how far they can kick the ball? Yes, they kick the ball they do not just grab it and run. Aussie Rules has four quarters, each lasting 25 minutes, with a break in between each quarter, longer break at half time than quarter time and three quarter time. Total match time is two and a half hours. 100,000 at yesterday's AFL grand final and many people could not get tickets. People flew over from Perth to go to the match. Flying distance is 2,730 km or 1,697 miles and flight time takes about 4 hours 15 minutes, plus extra time at the airport. You have to arrive at check in one hour before departure. Some people actually drive, and the driving distance is 2,128 km or 3,424 miles and takes a couple of days. The flight takes a shorter route over the Great Australian Bite.


(Kidding alert)

Duh! Is it anything like quidditch?


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Why not? That would be a match made in heaven and well worth the trip to WA. I loved Subiaco by the way!


Wait until the Emperor, aka Collin Barnett our Premier, builds the new stadium next to the Casino. But I still love Subi Oval, so many, many memories especially the 1961 grand final. First grand final ever won by Swan Districts, our local team. What a day that was.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> (Kidding alert)
> 
> Duh! Is it anything like quidditch?


Nah, that is just a game played by a mob of nancy boys. You want to see some real action then watch


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Nah, that is just a game played by a mob of nancy boys. You want to see some real action then watch
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Nah, that is just a game played by a mob of nancy boys. You want to see some real action then watch
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> Is this a bogan sport(You taught us that word, Eve.) or do lots of people watch?


No it is not a bogan sport, it is Australia's favourite sporting code. 100,000 at the grand final yesterday. But things can and do get a little heated at times.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> It's great that you have such an interest in Aussie rules! I watch gridiron whenever there is a match on television because I'm keen to learn the rules. I have to say, it's still a bit of a mystery but I'm getting there.


I've been watching American football my entire life and I'm still learning the rules!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I've been watching American football my entire life and I'm still learning the rules!


I gave up when I realized the yards they referred to had nothing to do with yarn.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I gave up when I realized the yards they referred to had nothing to do with yarn.


Ha Ha.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Mr Boehner believes ground troops will be required to fight IS. I was watching a news story about the Kurdish Peshmerga having taken Mosul back from IS and this was considered a good example of what can be achieved.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/barbarians-boehner-says-america-may-need-ground-troops-fight-isis-n213466

The Kurdish soldiers stated they need help but then there is IS *wanting* America and allies to commit ground troops:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29315164

American people believe ground troops will go in:

http://wavy.com/2014/09/28/poll-72-believe-us-will-use-ground-forces-against-isis/

Committing to a ground war is the last thing anyone wants. What does everyone think? Ground troops or no?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Mr Boehner believes ground troops will be required to fight IS. I was watching a news story about the Kurdish Peshmerga having taken Mosul back from IS and this was considered a good example of what can be achieved.
> 
> http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/barbarians-boehner-says-america-may-need-ground-troops-fight-isis-n213466
> 
> ...


No. Another quagmire and people in the ME would hate us even more - if that is possible. They need to resolve this issue themselves.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> No. Another quagmire and people in the ME would hate us even more - if that is possible. They need to resolve this issue themselves.


Just saw on our news that President Obama has stated intelligence underestimated IS advance:

http://online.wsj.com/articles/obama-says-u-s-intelligence-underestimated-developments-in-syria-1411918072


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I object to the idea that USA is the world's protector. In most cases I think we should mind our own business. Imagine someone unilaterally deciding to invade us. How would we support that?

I say, build up our homeland security... at least until asked for help.

To your original question on ground troups, my answer is no USA ground troups at this time.



Wombatnomore said:


> Mr Boehner believes ground troops will be required to fight IS. I was watching a news story about the Kurdish Peshmerga having taken Mosul back from IS and this was considered a good example of what can be achieved.
> 
> http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/barbarians-boehner-says-america-may-need-ground-troops-fight-isis-n213466
> 
> ...


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

damemary said:


> I object to the idea that USA is the world's protector. In most cases I think we should mind our own business. Imagine someone unilaterally deciding to invade us. How would we support that?
> 
> I say, build up our homeland security... at least until asked for help.
> 
> To your original question on ground troups, my answer is no USA ground troups at this time.


The only way to build up our homeland security and which means a military rebuild, is to reverse the Sequestration. I doubt that the Dems in Congress will go with that. The Sequestration was the brain child of Harry Reid (with Obama's blessing) and for it to be reversed would mean he/they made a mistake. Yes the Republicans did vote for it with the hope that the Dems would work with them to come up with budget cuts that Obama said would happen. But I doubt that will happen unless the Dems break ranks and do budget cutting and reinstate the military's budget. With all the layoffs of soldiers over the past few months, I do not see that happening for years.

But what also concerns me is that Obama blames the Intelligence community for not realizing what a threat ISIS was and is. That can not be true. Obama received daily security emails that laid out ISIS' threat. He may have received them, but there is no way to know if he read them. But if he read them he should have become extremely concerned and attended the daily briefings, so that he would be able to ask questions and hear the reports and not read them? So how can he blame them, if he rarely attended the meeting or even read the reports? It appears that once again he is blaming others for his failures

I too wish that we do not have to have 'boots on the ground', but I do not se how that is possible. It will take over a year to 'train' 5,000 M.E. troops, and according to Obama's military advisors there needs to be between 15,000 - 30,000. I can not image how many more women will be raped and enslaved in that year. I can not image how many more beheadings will occur during that year.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

On Snowden

Fact--Snowden gave his papers to the London Guardian. It was the Guardian that released the papers. There was an article last week about the Guardian breaching their agreement with Snowden. So how about applying some progressive analysis to understanding the propaganda that you seem to have accepted.

As for Snowden in Russia? Good for him. Russia was the only country that opened its doors to him as they apparently have enough power to keep the US at bay. What Snowden did was reveal the insidiousness of the Security State. So why judge him for being in Russia and working with them, if in fact he is.

His goal seemed to be to reveal the conspiratorial nature of government, the US's in particular with its hegemonic goals.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> The only way to build up our homeland security and which means a military rebuild, is to reverse the Sequestration. I doubt that the Dems in Congress will go with that. The Sequestration was the brain child of Harry Reid (with Obama's blessing) and for it to be reversed would mean he/they made a mistake. Yes the Republicans did vote for it with the hope that the Dems would work with them to come up with budget cuts that Obama said would happen. But I doubt that will happen unless the Dems break ranks and do budget cutting and reinstate the military's budget. With all the layoffs of soldiers over the past few months, I do not see that happening for years.
> 
> But what also concerns me is that Obama blames the Intelligence community for not realizing what a threat ISIS was and is. That can not be true. Obama received daily security emails that laid out ISIS' threat. He may have received them, but there is no way to know if he read them. But if he read them he should have become extremely concerned and attended the daily briefings, so that he would be able to ask questions and hear the reports and not read them? So how can he blame them, if he rarely attended the meeting or even read the reports? It appears that once again he is blaming others for his failures
> 
> I too wish that we do not have to have 'boots on the ground', but I do not se how that is possible. It will take over a year to 'train' 5,000 M.E. troops, and according to Obama's military advisors there needs to be between 15,000 - 30,000. I can not image how many more women will be raped and enslaved in that year. I can not image how many more beheadings will occur during that year.


Fantasies my dear. The US and Israel have been funding ISIL/IS/ISIS for years. This group is the morph of Al Queda which was also created, trained and funded by the US.

The US has been trying to destabilize Syria and having lost that battle, it is going in the back door with this IS brouhaha, using it as an excuse to bomb Syria and gain control over that country.

The US has been destroying every secular country in the Mid-East. End result is always a fundamentalist movement that rises up. And why not. The people of those countries are furious with the US and the West for destroying their cultures, their infrastructure and the blatant murders of the people. And their US process is to fund these fundamentalist groups, train them and then blame them, using their fighting as excuse to go in militarily.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

tamarque said:


> On Snowden
> 
> Fact--Snowden gave his papers to the London Guardian. It was the Guardian that released the papers. There was an article last week about the Guardian breaching their agreement with Snowden. So how about applying some progressive analysis to understanding the propaganda that you seem to have accepted.
> 
> ...


I agree Snowden did a huge service to the US. But hegemonic goals? Please elaborate.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

tamarque said:


> Fantasies my dear. The US and Israel have been funding ISIL/IS/ISIS for years. This group is the morph of Al Queda which was also created, trained and funded by the US.
> 
> The US has been trying to destabilize Syria and having lost that battle, it is going in the back door with this IS brouhaha, using it as an excuse to bomb Syria and gain control over that country.
> 
> The US has been destroying every secular country in the Mid-East. End result is always a fundamentalist movement that rises up. And why not. The people of those countries are furious with the US and the West for destroying their cultures, their infrastructure and the blatant murders of the people. And their US process is to fund these fundamentalist groups, train them and then blame them, using their fighting as excuse to go in militarily.


Please explain to me how Israel profits by supporting IS.

Visited your FB page and you are an incredible knitter.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

An Afghani-Australian travelling in Afghanistan while visiting relatives was seized on a bus by the Taliban, tortured and murdered. He had no ties or business with them or any other terrorist organisation:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/australian-man-sayed-habib-tortured-and-killed-by-taliban/story-e6frg6nf-1227073472190?nk=ea5d177d45d8847bfbf89ceca6088a38


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

To the Cutest Wombat Down Under,

Please post one good news link.

Do you call us Up Over?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> To the Cutest Wombat Down Under,
> 
> Please post one good news link.
> 
> Do you call us Up Over?


But dear sloth, this thread is about what's going on in the ME.

Okay.

Check this adorableness out!

http://www.viralnova.com/kangaroo-wombat-friends/


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> But dear sloth, this thread is about what's going on in the ME.
> 
> Okay.
> 
> ...


I loved them so.

Now back to all the ugliness in the world.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I loved them so.
> 
> Now back to all the ugliness in the world.


How are you cuteness and light? (I'm being genuine here).


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> How are you cuteness and light? (I'm being genuine here).


I don't know. Hard existential question.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I don't know. Hard existential question.


 :XD: :XD: You make me laugh! Where is PP?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I don't know where PP is. I know she is taking a rigorous Literature Class so that is probably keeping her busy along with Jewish holidays.

I would like to know where Tamarque is. Is she doing a fast hit and run over Israel?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I don't know where PP is. I know she is taking a rigorous Literature Class so that is probably keeping her busy along with Jewish holidays.
> 
> I would like to know where Tamarque is. Is she doing a fast hit and run over Israel?


I don't think so. I don't think Tamarque is anti Israel as such. I think she is a broad thinker who takes to task the controversial issues which abound.

I'm taking a risk here. Tamarque may take me to task. 

I miss PP. Just saying.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I don't think so. I don't think Tamarque is anti Israel as such. I think she is a broad thinker who takes to task the controversial issues which abound.
> 
> I'm taking a risk here. Tamarque may take me to task.
> 
> I miss PP. Just saying.


PM PP.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> How are you cuteness and light? (I'm being genuine here).


I'm being nauseated here. Will you two get a room and leave us in peace? or war, or whatever we're in now?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> SQM said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know. Hard existential question.
> ...


Here. But why would that question make you think of me? Definitely not an Existentialist.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I don't think so. I don't think Tamarque is anti Israel as such. I think she is a broad thinker who takes to task the controversial issues which abound.
> 
> I'm taking a risk here. Tamarque may take me to task.
> 
> I miss PP. Just saying.


I guess Tamarque is no more anti-Israel than the rest of the far left who demonstrate against any Jew that might be a Zionist. Or anyone who thinks that just because Hamas is being hurt, they're the underdog and therefore the ones "we" like. Or that not enough Jews were killed by Hamas.

Oddly, though I'm opinionated about almost everything, I've kept out of the discussion of what we can do about ISIS? I have no idea.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm being nauseated here. Will you two get a room and leave us in peace? or war, or whatever we're in now?


Lighten up Grumples. Or picture the marsupials being beheaded to fit the theme of this thread.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Lighten up Grumples. Or picture the marsupials being beheaded to fit the theme of this thread.


Why limit my imagination to marsupials? Anyway, it wasn't the little beasts that bothered me; it was the humans calling each other cuteness and light and things like that. That belongs on FF. :hunf:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Fantasies my dear. The US and Israel have been funding ISIL/IS/ISIS for years. This group is the morph of Al Queda which was also created, trained and funded by the US.
> 
> The US has been trying to destabilize Syria and having lost that battle, it is going in the back door with this IS brouhaha, using it as an excuse to bomb Syria and gain control over that country.
> 
> The US has been destroying every secular country in the Mid-East. End result is always a fundamentalist movement that rises up. And why not. The people of those countries are furious with the US and the West for destroying their cultures, their infrastructure and the blatant murders of the people. And their US process is to fund these fundamentalist groups, train them and then blame them, using their fighting as excuse to go in militarily.


I agree with almost everything you wrote. Here's where we differ; this isn't some grand scheme that belongs to the US and Israel. IMO, the globalists, (the elite, the 1%, the corporatists, WHATEVER you want to call them) have taken control of the governments of the US and ALL of her allies, including Israel.

They want control of the middle east for multiple reasons, one of which is control over oil. Mind you, I said "one", there are many relating to global control of everything and everyone. Everyone should keep in mind that they want the masses to pay for this takeover, both in dollars and lives lost. How they must laugh at us for being gullible!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Please explain to me how Israel profits by supporting IS.
> 
> Visited your FB page and you are an incredible knitter.


It's not about Israel profiting. It's about what's playing out in the background, total global control. There are those in Israel's political system that are just as corrupt and involved in the global takeover as there are in ours and of our allies. Those who won't give in and participate, will be destroyed by war and terrorism, which we're seeing in the middle east, right now.

Free people are ruled through manipulation and illusion. If that doesn't work, armies.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Then my question is for the vanishing Tamarque - why does she always call out Israel if the world is playing the same game?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> An Afghani-Australian travelling in Afghanistan while visiting relatives was seized on a bus by the Taliban, tortured and murdered. He had no ties or business with them or any other terrorist organisation:
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/australian-man-sayed-habib-tortured-and-killed-by-taliban/story-e6frg6nf-1227073472190?nk=ea5d177d45d8847bfbf89ceca6088a38


I can't help thinking that the guy was probably a spy.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I don't think so. I don't think Tamarque is anti Israel as such. I think she is a broad thinker who takes to task the controversial issues which abound.
> 
> I'm taking a risk here. Tamarque may take me to task.
> 
> I miss PP. Just saying.


I think Tamarque is an anti globalist, whether they're in Israel or anywhere else.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Somehow I do not see Israel as part of a global take-over. That stereotype is old and useless. I think Israel is defending itself from the nut jobs on its borders. Sad to hear you saying that old shit about the Jews wanting to control the world.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Then my question is for the vanishing Tamarque - why does she always call out Israel if the world is playing the same game?


I can't answer for her, but ?maybe? due the the absolute defense of Israel by some. While I believe that there are innocent Americans, innocent Israelis and innocent Palestians, I don't believe that governments are ever entirely innocent, not even Israel's. I DO believe that Israel has a right to defend herself. What I don't know is, what's going on behind the scenes. In example, our own government created Al qaida and Isis. And now? We must defend ourselves?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Somehow I do not see Israel as part of a global take-over. That stereotype is old and useless. I think Israel is defending itself from the nut jobs on its borders. Sad to hear you saying that old shit about the Jews wanting to control the world.


I NEVER said that the Jews were a part of a global takeover!!! SOME of these people MAY be Jews, it is irrelevant. I SAID that I believe that the globalists (or whatever you want to call them) are infiltrating all countries, including the US and Israel. Its a global conspiracy NOT a Jewish conspiracy! So called, Jews, so called Christians, atheists, agnostics, it makes no difference! Evil doesn't come from just one group of people.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Somehow I do not see Israel as part of a global take-over. That stereotype is old and useless. I think Israel is defending itself from the nut jobs on its borders. Sad to hear you saying that old shit about the Jews wanting to control the world.


And not Israel herself, anymore than the US, herself. I believe that there are people within Israel, just as there are people within the US, that are involved.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

This doesn't concern what's going on in the middle east but is very important. It's an article from a Chinese newspaper about the necessity of gearing up for world war III.
http://english.people.com.cn/n/2014/0916/c90000-8782955.html


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Then my question is for the vanishing Tamarque - why does she always call out Israel if the world is playing the same game?


Oh, come on. Tamarque has her fantasy; Nebraska has hers. Israel plays different parts in the different melodramas, as usual.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Somehow I do not see Israel as part of a global take-over. That stereotype is old and useless. I think Israel is defending itself from the nut jobs on its borders. Sad to hear you saying that old shit about the Jews wanting to control the world.


But, but, but aren't the Jews in charge of all the money?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm being nauseated here. Will you two get a room and leave us in peace? or war, or whatever we're in now?


 :XD: :XD: There you are! Thanks for making me laugh.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Why limit my imagination to marsupials? Anyway, it wasn't the little beasts that bothered me; it was the humans calling each other cuteness and light and things like that. That belongs on FF. :hunf:


I did miss you. Maybe I shouldn't have?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Ah, the old "New World Order" conspiracy talk. For a pretty good overview of the origins and evolution of this theory, just look it up in Wikipedia, particularly the part where George Bush inadvertently fueled the fire. It's a long, but interesting read and all of us are familiar with the references and spin-off conspiracy theories.

I personally think the idea of a global takeover is pure nonsense. People can read what they want in the tea leaves; for this to be true it would require a conspiracy of unimaginable complexity, commitment and cleverness, not to mention secrecy. I'll put my money on Occam's Razor. The simple answer is there is no conspiracy - just humans being humans and disagreeing, fighting and killing each other.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Ah, the old "New World Order" conspiracy talk. For a pretty good overview of the origins and evolution of this theory, just look it up in Wikipedia, particularly the part where George Bush inadvertently fueled the fire. It's a long, but interesting read and all of us are familiar with the references and spin-off conspiracy theories.
> 
> I personally think the idea of a global takeover is pure nonsense. People can read what they want in the tea leaves; for this to be true it would require a conspiracy of unimaginable complexity, commitment and cleverness, not to mention secrecy. I'll put my money on Occam's Razor. The simple answer is there is no conspiracy - just humans being humans and disagreeing, fighting and killing each other.


Then you don't agree with Soloweygirl that that's what the UN "wants"? As if the UN could get together enough to ever want the same thing.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: There you are! Thanks for making me laugh.


Fair trade: you make me barf, and I make you laugh. Why aren't you asleep at this time of night, anyway?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I did miss you. Maybe I shouldn't have?


There used to be, in the 60's and even before, a very popular variety tv show mc'ed by a man named Ed Sullivan. The hipper people would avoid it (except when Senor Wences was on, but that's a different story). Anyway, we used to say "Ed Sullivan? Never miss him. Never watch him; never miss him." (We also spoke with semicolons back then.)


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Oh, come on. Tamarque has her fantasy; Nebraska has hers. Israel plays different parts in the different melodramas, as usual.


Tres vrai! However, the comment made you sound a little bit existential. Very brilliant observation.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> HOORAY - a 53-46 vote
> 
> Please note that the ones that voted for this Resolution were 45 Democrats including Mary Landrieu and one Independent.
> 
> ...


Um...

"In a 53-46 vote, the Senate narrowly passed a measure that will *stop* the United States from entering into the United Nations Arms Trade Treaty."

"The U.N. Small Arms Treaty, which has been championed by the Obama Administration, *would have* effectively *placed* a global ban on the import and export of small firearms. The ban would have affected all private gun owners in the U.S. and had language that would have implemented an international gun registry, now get this, on all private guns and ammo."

So what is your issue? They stopped it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Tres vrai! However, the comment made you sound a little bit existential. Very brilliant observation.


Doesn't the obvious always sound brilliant the first time it's expressed?

What's less than brilliant is that screed just below your post from the pro-death people. I can't help hoping one of those gazillions of guns comes back to shoot her in the fa... I mean foot.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Then you don't agree with Soloweygirl that that's what the UN "wants"? As if the UN could get together enough to ever want the same thing.


Nope. I rarely agree with anything she says!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Um...
> 
> "In a 53-46 vote, the Senate narrowly passed a measure that will *stop* the United States from entering into the United Nations Arms Trade Treaty."
> 
> ...


Sumpleby, the Dems need to be punished just for disagreeing with the gun lobby and the pro-death faction.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Nope. I rarely agree with anything she says!


I agree with you.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> HOORAY - a 53-46 vote
> 
> Please note that the ones that voted for this Resolution were 45 Democrats including Mary Landrieu and one Independent.
> 
> ...


This is yet another pile of crap - and old crap, at that. I know you have no confidence in SNOPES, but they give an excellent history on this subject and put to rest the fear-mongering, lying, alarmist content you have swallowed hook-line-and-sinker.

In one particularly pertinent sentence, they effectively take the wind out of your sails:

"In short, there is no "legal way around the 2nd Amendment" other than a further amendment to the Constitution that repeals or alters it, or a Supreme Court decision that radically reinterprets how the 2nd Amendment is to be applied. 
Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/untreaty.asp#1ASIGR2hhEWe1pvO.99"


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

I have pretty much been staying out of this soap opera. We have our Christian die hards on one side and now our Jews-in-residence sounding no different. SQM takes side swipes at me even when I am not writing anything. Now PP seems to have joined her party. Same old crap of trying to silence anyone who will dare to criticize zionism and Israel. 

Frist, it is a meaningless then to say there are some good people in all countries. It is the leadership that defines a country, not the people. If there are elections, then the people are part of the support for a countries policies and politics. In Israel, the people have been electing increasing more extreme leadership and supporting them. So that is what the country is about--not the few who resist.

Calling my comments fantasy puts SQM and PP in the same camp as the Joeysommas and other right wing people who have a few facts, miss many and refuse to open themselves up to questioning of their belief systems. I have been trying very hard to avoid this but when people on the left take their fight into the public, all it does is create divisiveness which feeds the right wing. But such are belief systems that people will wear blinders and live with very narrow perspectives.

Thank you Wombatnomore for your comment about me and strangely enough, KnitterFromNebraska. I think you understand better than others that I do see things more globally and I do look behind the curtains a lot more carefully. As a result, I do think my politics are more progressive than most but I spend a great deal of time reading, and observing and using my street experience which is extensive. The US these days are at the top of the heap in creating hegemony in the world. Most Western countries tend to conform to US policies, tho not completely. Thank goodness for little things. For example Monsanto is having trouble forcing it GMO patented poison on the world with more and more countries banning it and almost all of them labeling GMO containing food. It is this push back which is all that provides space for the public to organize and try to impose another set of rules and regulations.

As for Israel, I never attacked Israel as an existing State. That is a done deal regardless of what I may know about its inception and development. However, the country has moved heavily to the right, and is blatantly racist and colonialist. And for the record, let me say that Zionism always took the position that if there were Arabs living in Palestine--too damn bad; they would be moved out in anyway. The lack of respect for these people has been blatant from the beginning. And that is racist.

You need to interpret my silence as my very generous attempt to avoid a head on collision among people who in many ways see eye to eye from a liberal to progressive stance. However, SQM, your stupid and disrespectful attacks on me deserve a response. The history of the past few decades has been to try and silence any criticism of Israel. Th. Friedman, a man who's politics I usually barf over, wrote that any criticism of Israel should get met with criticizing some other country. He was not bright enough to create this paradigm but just wrote about it. I deal with this kind of ad hominem attack by others and they can do nothing by send out conservative, downright reactionary posts to try and support their racism and bigotry--so much for liberals!

Personally, I don't kowtow to the kind of intimidation via name calling, and character assassination that SQM tries. I think it shows more something about her cowardice to confront mythology that she holds dear despite what is in front of her eyes and her aggressiveness to try and mock and silence those who have a very different understanding.

I would suggest that SQM and others disabuse themselves of the Israel-the-Victim mythology. Israel is the only country that has been a vicious and violent aggressor and screams about their victimhood. This would be totally laughable except for the damage they create. I am sorry PP, but the Palestinians have been subjected to the most disgusting suppression and genocidal racism. They have been resisting for over 60 years and every time they respond they are called terrorists. Well, whether you like it or not, Hamas was duly and fairly elected by the people as the only ones that did anything for the people. They were like the Black Panthers providing social services and support for people in the community. But you don't hear this on Fox 5 news. Today, outside of Barghouti who has been held in administrative detention for years, Hamas would clearly win an open and fair election in West Bank. I find it disgusting that privileged white people in the US think they can judge a struggle of direly oppressed people for even the most basic human services and civil rights. 

Personally, the authorities I will listen to on the subject are the progressive voices of Israel and real progressive Jews elsewhere. I will also pay attention to people who are not afraid to dig into history and expose the mythology that you so will go to the mat to defend. I would send link and bibliography but I doubt you, SQM, would have the courage to read it. You will be like some men on another group who can only send out reactionary posts to try and negate the realities of the colonialist regime of that State. Call me names all you want, but that doesn't negate reality. 

So, no I don't just take side swipes at Israel and disappear.. I have been avoiding dealing with the same fundamentalist myopia that you criticize on the right. It is painful to me to see but certainly not surprising.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Ayers and his Weather Underground were responsible for numerous acts of domestic terrorism. Too bad his long term goals of creating a new communist society and killing all those that resisted failed, where as McVeigh and the Fort Hood shooter succeeded. The old saying that those who can't ... - teach, is true in Ayers' case.


I listened to the two day interview with Ayers with Meagan Kelly, and he was scary. He wanted to do more damage, and he said that the US deserves to be bombed again. That is what he said. But I doubt any of the AOLW will dare watch that interview because it was on Fox News. But if they want the truth and not snippets from Wikipedia they would watch it, and LEARN. Novel idea, huh?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> In a 53-46 vote, the Senate narrowly passed a measure that will stop the United States from entering into the United Nations Arms Trade Treaty. The Statement of Purpose from the Senate Bill reads: "To uphold Second Amendment rights and prevent the United States from entering into the United Nations Arms Trade Treaty." The U.N. Small Arms Treaty, which has been championed by the Obama Administration, *would have effectively placed a global ban on the import and export of small firearms. The ban would have affected all private gun owners in the U.S. and had language that would have implemented an international gun registry, now get this, on all private guns and ammo.*
> 
> I guess you didn't read about the ban on importing and exporting and the international gun registry. Why should any other country, who might be an enemy in the future, know which Americans have weapons and ammo, and how much of each. For them to know this, we would be sitting ducks. Gun registration is the first step in confiscation. Use some common sense!


Please provide the specific text that says what you claim. Take your time, since it does NOT exist in the treaty language.

Those opposed to the accord have misrepresented what it does, suggesting that it would somehow infringe on American gun owners rights. It would do nothing of the kind.

The treaty applies only to international transfers of conventional arms and, in fact, reaffirms the sovereign right of any State to regulate and control conventional arms within its territory. The treaty's preamble also makes specific reference to the legitimate trade, lawful ownership and use of certain conventional arms for recreational, cultural, historical and sporting activities.

Secretary of State John Kerry emphasized these points in his statement welcoming the treaty's adoption, noting that nothing in this treaty could ever infringe on the rights of American citizens under our domestic law or the Constitution, including the Second Amendment, a point on which the United States insisted throughout the negotiations. This treaty has no reach into domestic gun policy, nor would it create a United Nations gun registry. There is absolutely nothing in it that violates the Second Amendment.

Please note the phrase, "nor would it create a United Nations gun registry."


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Tamarque,

You can never understand what Israel signifies to a Jew so I will not waste my fingertips trying to convince you. Please feel free to spew. I don't give a care.

(The next poster better have an air sickness bag for Tamala's spew. )


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> I have pretty much been staying out of this soap opera. We have our Christian die hards on one side and now our Jews-in-residence sounding no different. SQM takes side swipes at me even when I am not writing anything. Now PP seems to have joined her party. Same old crap of trying to silence anyone who will dare to criticize zionism and Israel.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> As for Israel, I never attacked Israel as an existing State. That is a done deal regardless of what I may know about its inception and development. However, the country has moved heavily to the right, and is blatantly racist and colonialist.


This is true, but as long as the Arabs continue to work toward the destruction of Israel, 1. they don't need your attack, and 2. the Israeli government will continue to move further to the right - who would blame them, given what they have to deal with both inside and outside their own borders?



> And for the record, let me say that Zionism always took the position that if there were Arabs living in Palestine--too damn bad; they would be moved out in anyway. The lack of respect for these people has been blatant from the beginning. And that is racist.


Again, Israel has never called for killing them all. In fact, as Jews moved into the land, they offered to buy property from the Arabs they displaced, unlike what various Arab nations did with the property of Jews whom they ejected from Syria, Iran, Egypt, Yemen, etc.



> I am sorry PP, but the Palestinians have been subjected to the most disgusting suppression and genocidal racism. They have been resisting for over 60 years and every time they respond they are called terrorists. Well, whether you like it or not, Hamas was duly and fairly elected by the people as the only ones that did anything for the people. They were like the Black Panthers providing social services and support for people in the community. But you don't hear this on Fox 5 news. Today, outside of Barghouti who has been held in administrative detention for years, Hamas would clearly win an open and fair election in West Bank. I find it disgusting that privileged white people in the US think they can judge a struggle of direly oppressed people for even the most basic human services and civil rights.


So long as the Hamas constitution continues to call for the destruction of the state of Israel, I don't think anything Israel does is uncalled-for. It's true that Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank are treated terribly, but they've made it impossible to treat them as partners. If Hamas doesn't want ambulances stopped at the border, they ought to consider *not* using ambulances to transport suicide bombers. Try living next door to someone who hates you and believes he can shoot at you whenever he feels like. Wouldn't you build a wall to protect yourself? What kinds of human services would you provide for such a neighbor?

I know you're sincere, but as long as you can see the destruction of Israel as a possibility, I can't agree with you. And whether you call for it or not, that destruction would be the outcome of the actions you do seem to support.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> I listened to the two day interview with Ayers with Meagan Kelly, and he was scary. He wanted to do more damage, and he said that the US deserves to be bombed again. That is what he said. But I doubt any of the AOLW will dare watch that interview because it was on Fox News. But if they want the truth and not snippets from Wikipedia they would watch it, and LEARN. Novel idea, huh?


Is there a transcript of this interview that I can link to? Watching an interview allows too much stuff to fly by; I'd like to see in black and white that "he said that the US deserves to be bombed again."

And it's time for you to delete your smarmy insults if you want to be taken seriously. You COWs just don't know when to stop.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

AOLW? I figured out the left-wing part but what about the AO?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

The Jew-In -Residence wants to congratulate PP for such a wonderful, well-thought out and tempered response to a comrade with a different POV. 

Uh Oh! It is "Our First Fall Going For a Hunt" Time. 

So Gang, don your detective's hat, pick up your magnifying glass because this evening we will go ahuntin' for more Jews-In-
Residence so I will not feel so lonely. The first one who finds One will get tonight's point.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm being nauseated here. Will you two get a room and leave us in peace? or war, or whatever we're in now?


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I guess Tamarque is no more anti-Israel than the rest of the far left who demonstrate against any Jew that might be a Zionist. Or anyone who thinks that just because Hamas is being hurt, they're the underdog and therefore the ones "we" like. Or that not enough Jews were killed by Hamas.
> 
> Oddly, though I'm opinionated about almost everything, I've kept out of the discussion of what we can do about ISIS? I have no idea.


I'm afraid we've done enough already to thicken the quagmire with ISIS.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Anything that smacks of a conspiracy theory makes me yarn. They can't get two people to meet for lunch at the same time, much less take over the world. IMHO


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I have only seen reports not the actual document. the registration of guns and ammo would be a big problem. and regulation of international sales of weapons and ammo. Anything the Congress can do to overturn it would benefit our country.
> 
> The main reason for my post was to list the Senators who voted for the treaty as they would be traitors.


I think DGreen made it very clear that you have jumped on a critical band wagon based on your personal biases and belief systems and have ignored facts which are as available to you as they are to DGreen, etc.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Is there a weapons ad included?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> This doesn't concern what's going on in the middle east but is very important. It's an article from a Chinese newspaper about the necessity of gearing up for world war III.
> http://english.people.com.cn/n/2014/0916/c90000-8782955.html


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

SQM said:


> Tamarque,
> 
> You can never understand what Israel signifies to a Jew so I will not waste my fingertips trying to convince you. Please feel free to spew. I don't give a care.
> 
> (The next poster better have an air sickness bag for Tamala's spew. )


You make assumptions that sound like joeysomma and they are as arrogant. Your lack of respect is no different either, so you have shown your cards and have lost a great deal of respect.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That's our Purl.



Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: There you are! Thanks for making me laugh.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Tamala's definition of a fact: Whatever she believes.
Tamala's definition of biases and belief systems: Whatever you think is a fact but she doesn't.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I have only seen reports not the actual document. the registration of guns and ammo would be a big problem. and regulation of international sales of weapons and ammo. Anything the Congress can do to overturn it would benefit our country.
> 
> The main reason for my post was to list the Senators who voted for the treaty as they would be traitors.


But it does NOT establish an international gun registry.

Regulation of international trade in weapons could be beneficial - like keeping gun profiteers from selling arms to drug cartels and revolutionaries. Without knowing the contents, it seems irresponsible to label those who voted for this treaty as traitors. Of course this vote broke down along party lines, with all republicans voting against. This is predictable, since they are all terrified of the NRA and tea party threats. And they have gotten a lot of mileage out of disseminating MISINFORMATION about the actual treaty.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Tamala's definition of a fact: Whatever she believes.
> Tamala's definition of biases and belief systems: Whatever you think is a fact but she doesn't.


I guess that makes her the same as everyone else on here!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Conspiracy theory has always left me laughing. They can't organize a bake sale...without the help of a Mom or two.



DGreen said:


> Ah, the old "New World Order" conspiracy talk. For a pretty good overview of the origins and evolution of this theory, just look it up in Wikipedia, particularly the part where George Bush inadvertently fueled the fire. It's a long, but interesting read and all of us are familiar with the references and spin-off conspiracy theories.
> 
> I personally think the idea of a global takeover is pure nonsense. People can read what they want in the tea leaves; for this to be true it would require a conspiracy of unimaginable complexity, commitment and cleverness, not to mention secrecy. I'll put my money on Occam's Razor. The simple answer is there is no conspiracy - just humans being humans and disagreeing, fighting and killing each other.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Then you don't agree with Soloweygirl that that's what the UN "wants"? As if the UN could get together enough to ever want the same thing.


Like Congress?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

damemary said:


> Is there a weapons ad included?


It's just an opinion piece. I don't look at it as any sort of "news" about some policy shift or anything. Sort of the same kind of saber-rattling opinions McCain spouts on a regular basis. Truly irrelevant to this discussion.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> There used to be, in the 60's and even before, a very popular variety tv show mc'ed by a man named Ed Sullivan. The hipper people would avoid it (except when Senor Wences was on, but that's a different story). Anyway, we used to say "Ed Sullivan? Never miss him. Never watch him; never miss him." (We also spoke with semicolons back then.)


 :XD: :XD: :XD: ROFL


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Conspiracy theory has always left me laughing. They can't organize a bake sale...without the help of a Mom or two.


Whom are you referring to, as "they"? And how would you have any idea what " they" could do, if you don't believe "they" exist?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

damemary said:


> Anything that smacks of a conspiracy theory makes me yarn. They can't get two people to meet for lunch at the same time, much less take over the world. IMHO


makes me laugh - except conspiracy theorists vote their fantasies


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Not everyone believes everyone needs a gun.



joeysomma said:


> HOORAY - a 53-46 vote
> 
> Please note that the ones that voted for this Resolution were 45 Democrats including Mary Landrieu and one Independent.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Will you please find an emoticom for sarcasm to alert all?



Poor Purl said:


> Sumpleby, the Dems need to be punished just for disagreeing with the gun lobby and the pro-death faction.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> It's just an opinion piece. I don't look at it as any sort of "news" about some policy shift or anything. Sort of the same kind of saber-rattling opinions McCain spouts on a regular basis. Truly irrelevant to this discussion.


It's an indication of what the Chinese people are being led to believe. Are you only interested in what those like you, believe? I think it's good to know what others are thinking, especially if they're preparing their people for world war III. Remember...Chinese media is government run.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It's an indication of what the Chinese people are being led to believe. Are you only interested in what those like you, believe? I think it's good to know what others are thinking, especially if they're preparing their people for world war III. Remember...Chinese media is government run.


So is our media.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> makes me laugh - except conspiracy theorists vote their fantasies


And everyone else votes with theirs.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> So is our media.


Right! They're getting the people all riled up and ready for war.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> So is our media.


I think we have to be wary of any media these days.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Right. But we are not buying it, are we? 

What media is government-free?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I think we have to be wary of any media these days.


Agreed!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Is there a category for lapsed Catholics supporting Jews-in-residence (whoever that may be)?



SQM said:


> The Jew-In -Residence wants to congratulate PP for such a wonderful, well-thought out and tempered response to a comrade with a different POV.
> 
> Uh Oh! It is "Our First Fall Going For a Hunt" Time.
> 
> ...


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Right. But we are not buying it, are we?
> 
> What media is government-free?


"We" aren't buying it, but most people are. They believe everything they hear on the news or read in the newspaper.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I have only seen reports not the actual document. the registration of guns and ammo would be a big problem. and regulation of international sales of weapons and ammo. Anything the Congress can do to overturn it would benefit our country.
> 
> The main reason for my post was to list the Senators who voted for the treaty as they would be traitors.


YOU KNOW WHO'S A TRAITOR WITHOUT READING THE DOCUMENT THEY APPROVED?????


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> Is there a category for lapsed Catholics supporting Jews-in-residence (whoever that may be)?


YES.

And since you found yourself, Our Great Dame won tonight's point.

Ladies - hunt is over. Call in the Beagles.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> Tamala's definition of a fact: Whatever she believes.
> Tamala's definition of biases and belief systems: Whatever you think is a fact but she doesn't.


She has company.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You're right. I'm not going to fuss about it.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Whom are you referring to, as "they"? And how would you have any idea what " they" could do, if you don't believe "they" exist?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> So is our media.


And there is a mounting drum-beat for war.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> She has company.


Yup! Every person here thinks that they are right and anyone who disagrees with them, is wrong. It was a stupid comment to begin with. Why belabor it?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> YES.
> 
> And since you found yourself, Our Great Dame won tonight's point.
> 
> Ladies - hunt is over. Call in the Beagles.


Did I just get a point because no one else can find themselves tonight? Just being silly. Thanks.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> And there is a mounting drum-beat for war.


Agreed! I was only pointing out that the drums are beating in China, as well.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And everyone else votes with theirs.


Conspiracy theories are not real. One World Order is a fantasy. Santa Claus is not real. Gun confiscation is a fantasy. FEMA camps are a fantasy. The Tooth Fairy is a myth.

Your One World Order has about a dozen different iterations and theories about the coming doom and who will do what. Even conspiracy theorists can't agree on THAT story.

Some of us actually DO strive to find facts and don't rely on others' opinions to inform our decisions. I can't vouch for your crowd.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Conspiracy theories are not real. One World Order is a fantasy. Santa Claus is not real. Gun confiscation is a fantasy. FEMA camps are a fantasy. The Tooth Fairy is a myth.
> 
> Your One World Order has about a dozen different iterations and theories about the coming doom and who will do what. Even conspiracy theorists can't agree on THAT story.
> 
> Some of us actually DO strive to find facts and don't rely on others' opinions to inform our decisions. I can't vouch for your crowd.


What I'm saying is that NO ONE knows whether what they read, is truth or not. You believe those whose world view aligns with your own. I also believe that all are deceived by misinformation. Anyone who claims to know everything, is WRONG!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Right. But we are not buying it, are we?
> 
> What media is government-free?


It's been said before but I think it's important to get information from a very broad base. We can only get to the truth by constantly being curious. (I hope).


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> AOLW? I figured out the left-wing part but what about the AO?


I believe it stands for "angry old," and the W is for "women." They like to pretend that we're much older than they are and that we're the angry ones, we who who elected the president we wanted (twice) and helped him pass the ACA. In reality, you can smell that they're fuming.

And COW stands for Conservative Obnoxious Women.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> The Jew-In -Residence wants to congratulate PP for such a wonderful, well-thought out and tempered response to a comrade with a different POV.
> 
> Uh Oh! It is "Our First Fall Going For a Hunt" Time.
> 
> ...


I hope Marilyn and DH aren't sick again. But, you know, you always have soloweygirl.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> So long as the Hamas constitution continues to call for the destruction of the state of Israel, I don't think anything Israel does is uncalled-for. It's true that Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank are treated terribly, but they've made it impossible to treat them as partners. If Hamas doesn't want ambulances stopped at the border, they ought to consider *not* using ambulances to transport suicide bombers. Try living next door to someone who hates you and believes he can shoot at you whenever he feels like. Wouldn't you build a wall to protect yourself? What kinds of human services would you provide for such a neighbor?
> 
> I know you're sincere, but as long as you can see the destruction of Israel as a possibility, I can't agree with you. And whether you call for it or not, that destruction would be the outcome of the actions you do seem to support.


Believe it or not, I am more familiar with your position than you can know. But the facts on the ground do not support your position. The hasbara coming out of Israel and promoted by their foreign agent AIPAC and other right wing zionist groups has been very powerful for many years. However, it is based mainly on lies.

I find that it is Israel that has never been a partner for peace. It is Zionism that created a politic of removal of the Palestinians going back to its inception as a concept and it was and is racist to the core.

It is mythology that the Hamas 'constitution' calls for the destruction of Israel. Yes, there were people who felt/feel that way, however Hamas never approved that document as I know. Further, Hamas has offered the olive branch to Israel many times over the years with Israel always rejecting it, playing the victim.

Further, every time there is a break in fighting, and a cease fire or peace period agreed, it is always Israel that breaks it. Even this past invasion by Israel never ceased even when an agreement was reached. Israel has not stopped the assault; it is just not as loud and the media has moved on to other distractions such as Ukraine or Syria.

Considering that Israel has one of the largest militaries in the world and is a major nuclear power with over 200 nuclear war heads/weapons last I read, it is very hard to see it has a weak state. Quite the contrary. It has been an aggressor State from its inception.

The US has politically supported the mantra that Israel has a right to defend itself, but ignores the right of the Palestinian people to defend themselves and to wage a campaign for freedom and social justice. Such a campaign is within international law while Israel has been extra-legal in all ways for decades. It's policies are designed to subjugate and remove the Palestinians from their land. They are doing it more slowly than Hitler's plan for extermination only as part of a PR campaign for international support. It is the same tactic used in the US on many issues. Make your changes more slowly so they are not as dramatic and will more likely be tolerated by the masses. This is as true for political agenda as it is for raising the price of gasoline.

The history of Israel has been distorted for PR value and that paradigm has been extremely successful. However, more and more researchers and investigative journalists are 'coming out of the closet' and speaking. My bibliography of such reports is growing. Most of them are written by Israels and American Jews. I am sure you will find this hard to accept and I do understand that. Having been raised with a given belief system it is hard to deal with the fact that it has not been completely true and that the most moral army in the world is not very at all. I don't know how anyone can think of an army as a moral institution in any way at all considering that all wars are immoral.

I don't know what you saw me suggest that would put Israel in any danger since I don't think I put forth any political solution other than to imply that its racism is totally unacceptable which needs to be dealt with. Perhaps that fact that it has never written a Constitution because it would never write a democratic one for all its citizens which include Arabs needs to be addressed. The reality is that Israel has always had a position to never negotiate with the Palestinians no matter who becomes a leader for those people. That is the State's position so every leader is trashed and called a terrorist. Fatah has betrayed the Palestinians but Hamas has still attempted to find peace with them,giving up much of its political power. Israel freaked out and created this past summer's invasion. That is Israel's strategy--ongoing military invasions and slow strangulation. The growing concern of many in Israel is the erosion of any sense of morality and social justice of the culture. When you have high government leaders calling for bombing the Palestinians off the face of the earth, I think we have a very clear idea of what that State's intents are.

That State's politic is to have full control of all of Palestine. Their school books show maps of Israel as the whole of Palestine. This is what they teach their young people. And when gas deposits were found in 2007, some of them in Palestinian land, Israel upped the ante of their assaults which can only be seen as colonialist, racist and genocidal.

I don't disagree that there are people in the world who are anti-Semitic however, they are not in power--except in newly constituted nazi Ukraine. Now that is a situation to be exposed more heavily. There are many more people in Israel whose rabid racism is way more dangerous. The settlers are given a green light for their attacks on Palestinians, their land, homes and economy. The same thinking people within Israel are also given free reign to riot against people of color. These people are electing the increasingly right wing leadership and actually have a lot of power.

In reality there is no threat to Israel. It is a white supremacist country as is the US and Europe and serves a major function for the US hegemony. It is a major purveyor of spying technology which is a big 'export' industry. It has a major armament industry and profits heavily from war. 
No Israel is neither weak nor under threat and we do disagree.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Agreed!


It's frustrating to think we're being fed lies. Just another form of social control. Ho Hum.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I have only seen reports not the actual document. the registration of guns and ammo would be a big problem. and regulation of international sales of weapons and ammo. Anything the Congress can do to overturn it would benefit our country.
> 
> The main reason for my post was to list the Senators who voted for the treaty as they would be traitors.


Guns are so important to you? You really are in the pro-death faction.

Those senators you call traitors are the only ones with their heads glued on straight. And at least they understand what they voted for, unlike you.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I hope Marilyn and DH aren't sick again. But, you know, you always have soloweygirl.


Marilyn is in exceptional form over on Hobby Lobby.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What I'm saying is that NO ONE knows whether what they read, is truth or not. You believe those whose world view aligns with your own. I also believe that all are deceived by misinformation.  Anyone who claims to know everything, is WRONG!


Who is claiming to know everything?

It is difficult to separate fact from fiction, so one needs to use their brains first of all, to weed out the blatant bs. I don't believe conspiracy theories because of pure logic and observation. For example, the magnitude of the One World Order conspiracy would require logistics fantastic in scope. Our leaders often can't get the small stuff right, so I don't believe turning over the country to some phantom order (all preplanned with incredible precision and foresight, including electing the "right" person) is within their ability. And someone would talk. Someone would always talk.

How about the conspiracy theory that it was REALLY a missile that hit the Pentagon on 9-11? That's a very popular one. Trouble is, the missile would have to have passed directly over a busy freeway and would have been seen by many who could not have been "in" on the deception. Trouble is, lots of people saw a plane. No missile. Again, Occam was right - sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one. It was a freaking plane!

So, you're not completely correct. Yes, we can and have been deceived. But you can't fool all of the people all of the time - just some of them.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. This has never been forthcoming from the conspiracy theorists whose claims are truly in-credible.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Conspiracy theory has always left me laughing. They can't organize a bake sale...without the help of a Mom or two.


That proves what I've always believed: Mother is the Invention of Necessity.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I believe it stands for "angry old," and the W is for "women." They like to pretend that we're much older than they are and that we're the angry ones, we who who elected the president we wanted (twice) and helped him pass the ACA. In reality, you can smell that they're fuming.
> 
> And COW stands for Conservative Obnoxious Women.


Thanks, Purl!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Like Congress?


Congress is worse than the UN. They do it all out of spite.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> It's been said before but I think it's important to get information from a very broad base. We can only get to the truth by constantly being curious. (I hope).


So true.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

What about that intruder who made it all the way into the first floor of the WH? How could that have happened? What is being said about the Secret Service? And their dogs?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Who is claiming to know everything?
> 
> It is difficult to separate fact from fiction, so one needs to use their brains first of all, to weed out the blatant bs. I don't believe conspiracy theories because of pure logic and observation. For example, the magnitude of the One World Order conspiracy would require logistics fantastic in scope. Our leaders often can't get the small stuff right, so I don't believe turning over the country to some phantom order (all preplanned with incredible precision and foresight, including electing the "right" person) is within their ability. *And someone would talk. Someone would always talk*.
> 
> ...


Someone WILL always talk. I find that part of human nature both ugly and fascinating. To truly believe you can trust someone close to you with information is a fallacy. Sad but true. I've only recently decided not to trust anyone with deeply personal information. It's just not worth it. Anytime with anyone.

ADDIT: Fascinating that people will 'promise' not to divulge when they deeply know they will.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Congress is worse than the UN. They do it all out of spite.


Oh, it's more than spite. They have an agenda and it involves stirring up the gun owners and the abortion-haters and the fundamentalist Christians, not to mention the racists and bigots. They capitalize on fear. Of course, Christians operate from a default position of fear (of going to hell), so they hammer on the idea that Christianity is being "attacked."

One has to wonder if the tea party succeeds in making this country a theocracy, what religion they will endorse. No matter what it is, someone will be out of favor and they will only have themselves to blame. As an atheist, I'm against this trend because it endangers religious freedom, which I believe in, even though I don't believe in god.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> What about that intruder who made it all the way into the first floor of the WH? How could that have happened? What is being said about the Secret Service? And their dogs?


So your theory is?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Oh, it's more than spite. They have an agenda and it involves stirring up the gun owners and the abortion-haters and the fundamentalist Christians, not to mention the racists and bigots. They capitalize on fear. Of course, Christians operate from a default position of fear (of going to hell), so they hammer on the idea that Christianity is being "attacked."
> 
> One has to wonder if the tea party succeeds in making this country a theocracy, what religion they will endorse. No matter what it is, someone will be out of favor and they will only have themselves to blame. As an atheist, I'm against this trend because it endangers religious freedom, which I believe in, even though I don't believe in god.


This congress and others?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Someone WILL always talk. I find that part of human nature both ugly and fascinating. To truly believe you can trust someone close to you with information is a fallacy. Sad but true. I've only recently decided not to trust anyone with deeply personal information. It's just not worth it. Anytime with anyone.
> 
> ADDIT: Fascinating that people will 'promise' not to divulge when they deeply know they will.


If you have had confidences betrayed, I truly sympathize with your hurt and disappointment. So sorry if that happened to you.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Believe it or not, I am more familiar with your position than you can know. But the facts on the ground do not support your position. The hasbara coming out of Israel and promoted by their foreign agent AIPAC and other right wing zionist groups has been very powerful for many years. However, it is based mainly on lies.
> 
> I find that it is Israel that has never been a partner for peace. It is Zionism that created a politic of removal of the Palestinians going back to its inception as a concept and it was and is racist to the core.
> 
> ...


I DON'T agree with almost all of this! Yes, Israel has a powerful lobby. Yes, they've a large military force and they have lots of nuclear weapons. But don't think for one minute that their decisions aren't based upon defense. They're surrounded by Arabs who would like to eliminate them. This has got to color every decision they make. You believe in your facts and I believe in mine. We are all subject to propaganda of one form or another. While I may not be aware of everything that goes on in Israel, neither are you. You've just been listening to different sort of propaganda.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I assume that the secret global government is trying to kill Obama. Transferring the SS to a political agency was probably a poor move.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Will you please find an emoticom for sarcasm to alert all?


I thought my words were warning enough. But will this do?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> I assume that the secret global government is trying to kill Obama. Transferring the SS to a political agency was probably a poor move.


No, no! Obama is the one who will turn the US over to the New World Order after he puts us in FEMA camps, implants chips in our foreheads to force us to obey (obey what, I don't know), wrecks the economy and becomes President for Life. You just don't know ANYTHING, do you???

:roll:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> YOU KNOW WHO'S A TRAITOR WITHOUT READING THE DOCUMENT THEY APPROVED?????


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> If you have had confidences betrayed, I truly sympathize with your hurt and disappointment. So sorry if that happened to you.


Thank you Green. It's painful, particularly when I loyally keep confidences for others, that is the truth. Anyway, 'moving forward' is all one can do.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What I'm saying is that NO ONE knows whether what they read, is truth or not. You believe those whose world view aligns with your own. I also believe that all are deceived by misinformation. Anyone who claims to know everything, is WRONG!


Some are capable of using logic to determine what is or isn't credible. It has nothing to do with "world view."


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> No, no! Obama is the one who will turn the US over to the New World Order after he puts us in FEMA camps, implants chips in our foreheads to force us to obey (obey what, I don't know), wrecks the economy and becomes President for Life. You just don't know ANYTHING, do you???
> 
> :roll:


Have you ever heard of disinformation? When part of an agenda is leaked, you release all kinds of nonsense so that no one will believe any of it. In this case, it was designed just for you. You bought it, hook, line and sinker.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Have you ever heard of disinformation? When part of an agenda is leaked, you release all kinds of nonsense so that no one will believe any of it. In this case, it was designed just for you. You bought it, hook, line and sinker.


Ms. Green was being sarcastic for my sake.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Someone WILL always talk. I find that part of human nature both ugly and fascinating. To truly believe you can trust someone close to you with information is a fallacy. Sad but true. I've only recently decided not to trust anyone with deeply personal information. It's just not worth it. Anytime with anyone.
> 
> ADDIT: Fascinating that people will 'promise' not to divulge when they deeply know they will.


As my grandmother always said "Never put anything in writing and never have a witness".

Sometimes we do accidentally betray a trust. We repeat something that has been told to us in confidence. We often say, or print, things without thinking, then too late we realise what we have done. That is why it is best to keep our cards close to our chest, so many things we say and especially things we write can be misconstrued and misunderstood. I know, I was married to a man who did this all the time. He betrayed my trust and told others things I wanted to keep private. He also twisted my words and threw them back at me over 20 years later. I would stop and say "I did not say that", only to be told "yes, you did". His "yes you did" was the opposite of what I had said, but he had twisted my words to make it seem I had said the opposite of what I had actually said. I am still having difficulty coming to grips with what members of his family swore in their affidavits in a legal case just recently, as what they swore ranges from outright lies to a total exaggeration and distortion of the truth.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Everyone is entitled to believe what they want. But when the discussion comes down to criticizing others for what they believe, the discussion is no longer about the issues. Discussion really only takes place, among those with differing opinions. But I'm sick of being insulted. So you all can just talk about the fact that you agree with everything each of you says, and you'll all be happy! Such stimulating discussion!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> As my grandmother always said "Never put anything in writing and never have a witness".
> 
> Sometimes we do accidentally betray a trust. We repeat something that has been told to us in confidence. We often say, or print, things without thinking, then too late we realise what we have done. That is why it is best to keep our cards close to our chest, so many things we say and especially things we write can be misconstrued and misunderstood. I know, I was married to a man who did this all the time. He betrayed my trust and told others things I wanted to keep private. He also twisted my words and threw them back at me over 20 years later. I would stop and say "I did not say that", only to be told "yes, you did". His "yes you did" was the opposite of what I had said, but he had twisted my words to make it seem I had said the opposite of what I had actually said.  I am still having difficulty coming to grips with what members of his family swore in their affidavits in a legal case just recently, as what they swore ranges from outright lies to a total exaggeration and distortion of the truth.


Eve, I am so sorry. To be 'legally bullied' in that way is just plain cruel. Something you are left to struggle with and it's so unfair.

Sometimes I think it's useless trying to be a 'good' human being but then I witness something pretty wonderful and faith is restored. Until the next time. :evil:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

The Preamble to the Hamas Charter states: ″Israel will exist and will continue to exist *until Islam invalidates it, just as it invalidated others before it*″.



tamarque said:


> Too much stuff that I find distasteful and will not repeat. - s. Poor Purl


And much that is untrue. The Oslo accords, the Camp David accords, who knows how many private deals - it was always the Palestinians who had no use for these.

You do realize that one loss means the end of Israel. Though you deny it, I think that's what you're hoping for. I don't think I want to continue to justify Israel's continuation, especially to someone who would rather see it turn back into desert, as it was before Jews came.

Israelis aren't necessarily nice people, and the administration is indeed corrupt. But unless you can give me the name of an Israeli who blew himself up just to kill dozens of "Palestinians," and a mother of one such who cheered him on and was paid for his sacrifice, I know who I'd rather be working with.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Oh, it's more than spite. They have an agenda and it involves stirring up the gun owners and the abortion-haters and the fundamentalist Christians, not to mention the racists and bigots. They capitalize on fear. Of course, Christians operate from a default position of fear (of going to hell), so they hammer on the idea that Christianity is being "attacked."
> 
> One has to wonder if the tea party succeeds in making this country a theocracy, what religion they will endorse. No matter what it is, someone will be out of favor and they will only have themselves to blame. As an atheist, I'm against this trend because it endangers religious freedom, which I believe in, even though I don't believe in god.


Thank you. You make a lot of sense, as usual.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Everyone is entitled to believe what they want. But when the discussion comes down to criticizing others for what they believe, the discussion is no longer about the issues. Discussion really only takes place, among those with differing opinions. But I'm sick of being insulted. So you all can just talk about the fact that you agree with everything each of you says, and you'll all be happy! Such stimulating discussion!


KFN, you're stronger than this! I don't think I know of anyone else who can take stings like you do.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Have you ever heard of disinformation? When part of an agenda is leaked, you release all kinds of nonsense so that no one will believe any of it. In this case, it was designed just for you. You bought it, hook, line and sinker.


Facts. Not rumor. Not clues. Not interpretation of facts to fit the premise. These are the bases upon which I form opinion.

If there is a "disinformation" campaign going on, exactly who is behind it? And how could the logistics of a thing like that work?

Let's say a loved one was arrested for robbing a bank. Serious, but not like murder or anything. Would you assist him any possible way you could, including demanding proof BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, that he really did it? Of course you would, and your standard of proof would be very high - you wouldn't just accept some policeman's note in a notebook that so-and-so said it was him, which is what conspiracy theorists effectively do.

That is what I mean when I say extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I have not see it or anything that comes close to it. So I don't believe and I feel a little sorry for those who do because some of the nonsense out there would be really scary, if true. And I feel more than a little angry when those "believers" vote their fantasies.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Counter terrorism raids were carried out in 5 Melbourne suburbs this morning. A 23 year old man was arrested and charged with supplying money to a known 'terrorist' who is fighting in Syria. This was a joint exercise with Victoria Police and the FBI! 9 months in the planning.

http://www.9news.com.au/


----------



## Llavaia (Oct 14, 2013)

DGreen said:


> No, no! Obama is the one who will turn the US over to the New World Order after he puts us in FEMA camps, implants chips in our foreheads to force us to obey (obey what, I don't know), wrecks the economy and becomes President for Life. You just don't know ANYTHING, do you???
> 
> :roll:


Sorta sounds like marriage...


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Llavaia said:


> Sorta sounds like marriage...


 :XD:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Over on Denim and Pearls they're calling Benjamin Netanyahu "Bibi." Could not believe it until I looked twice.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I DON'T agree with almost all of this! Yes, Israel has a powerful lobby. Yes, they've a large military force and they have lots of nuclear weapons. But don't think for one minute that their decisions aren't based upon defense. They're surrounded by Arabs who would like to eliminate them. This has got to color every decision they make. You believe in your facts and I believe in mine. We are all subject to propaganda of one form or another. While I may not be aware of everything that goes on in Israel, neither are you. You've just been listening to different sort of propaganda.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup:


Hi Designer, hope you're well.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Hi Designer, hope you're well.


We are in BC waiting for our furniture to arrive. Have possession of our suite and bought basic groceries andput them away. Will be on and off line for awhile. Lovely here.Staying with our son. We had a glorious trip through the Rockies and the weather here has been nice until it rained a bit today.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Over on Denim and Pearls they're calling Benjamin Netanyahu "Bibi." Could not believe it until I looked twice.


Why not? "Bibi" is his actual nickname.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> We are in BC waiting for our furniture to arrive. Have possession of our suite and bought basic groceries andput them away. Will be on and off line for awhile. Lovely here.


That's great! I'm glad it's 'being' a pleasant experience for you. Makes things so much easier.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> Why not? "Bibi" is his actual nickname.


I had no idea! Never heard of it before now.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Speaking of which Netanyahu just delivered a scathing speech:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/29/netanyahu-un-speech_n_5901574.html

Ouch!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I bow to the master.



Poor Purl said:


> That proves what I've always believed: Mother is the Invention of Necessity.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm flabbergasted on this one. Almost seems as though someone wanted him to get in.



SQM said:


> What about that intruder who made it all the way into the first floor of the WH? How could that have happened? What is being said about the Secret Service? And their dogs?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> No, no! Obama is the one who will turn the US over to the New World Order after he puts us in FEMA camps, implants chips in our foreheads to force us to obey (obey what, I don't know), wrecks the economy and becomes President for Life. You just don't know ANYTHING, do you???
> 
> :roll:


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's an alternate reality over there.



Wombatnomore said:


> Over on Denim and Pearls they're calling Benjamin Netanyahu "Bibi." Could not believe it until I looked twice.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

damemary said:


> It's an alternate reality over there.


The whole world calls him "Bibi" including Obama but you and the Womb in your ignorance try to slam Denim?

Pair of matching lunkheads!


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

damemary said:


> Is there a weapons ad included?


Actually the article from China was a very good, concise picture of a very real concern. I have been saying the Mid-East disruption by the US and it hegemonic interests is only a stepping stone to Russia and China. I think Americans need to look at their own ethnocentrism, even those on the left.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Over on Denim and Pearls they're calling Benjamin Netanyahu "Bibi." Could not believe it until I looked twice.


Yes, that is the nickname Israeli's use for Netanyahu--an attempt to humanize him.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> The whole world calls him "Bibi" including Obama but you and the Womb in your ignorance try to slam Denim?
> 
> Pair of matching lunkheads!


Come on Gerslay, 'lunkheads,' really? I've seen you do much better than that!


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'm flabbergasted on this one. Almost seems as though someone wanted him to get in.


That has been my take on it. You need to remind yourself that this is an increasing 'security state' which is really out of control regarding the public and its needs. I do not believe anyone can get into the White House, and into the private family quarters of a president--unless it was pre-arranged. So was this an attempt at a real attack? Or was it a false flag type situation to add to the fear mongering that is ongoing and the increased militarization of the US here at home?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

I was wondering whether this intruder business was staged. Seems a bit over the top not to have been. Why would the SS want to be portrayed as useless?


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

tamarque wrote:
Too much stuff that I find distasteful and will not repeat. - s. Poor Purl
The Preamble to the Hamas Charter states: ″Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam invalidates it, just as it invalidated others before it″.

And much that is untrue. The Oslo accords, the Camp David accords, who knows how many private deals - it was always the Palestinians who had no use for these.

You do realize that one loss means the end of Israel. Though you deny it, I think that's what you're hoping for. I don't think I want to continue to justify Israel's continuation, especially to someone who would rather see it turn back into desert, as it was before Jews came.

Israelis aren't necessarily nice people, and the administration is indeed corrupt. But unless you can give me the name of an Israeli who blew himself up just to kill dozens of "Palestinians," and a mother of one such who cheered him on and was paid for his sacrifice, I know who I'd rather be working with.

It is disappointing that someone who is usually more perceptive, is so controlled by blind faith and emotion in this situation. The Charter has been up for grabs among the leadership of Hamas as I already said. And even if the Hamas charter was agreed to, they have also put forth offers for peace which Israel always ignores. It is the policy of Israel to not have peace as they want the land and its resources. The State's behavior speaks loudly; those are the facts on the ground. And there is too much money made from war.

As for those agreementseveryone of them put the Palestinians at a great disadvantage. Further, and very importantly, every Israeli leader has been committed to never allowing a Palestinian State to exist. They have trashed the agreements, made a mockery of them. Their answer is more invasions, more house demolitions, more land theft, more destruction of Palestinian infrastructure and economy. The alleged end of this summers war was Israel laying claim to 1000 acres of West Bank land for more settlement development. This was followed by another 500 acres taken. Peace? No it is Israel that has no use for peace.

As for cheering human misery? Israelis sat out side in safety cheering the bombing of Gaza, a big party.

I find your existential angst about Israel to be just way to emotional for you to hear any other facts.

Read this years ago but it was on a website sent to me by an Israeli friend, a good progressive. Lengthy but it should open your eyes, even if it makes you uncomfortable:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I said nothing about Bibi. I do think there is an alternate reality in D&P.



Gerslay said:


> The whole world calls him "Bibi" including Obama but you and the Womb in your ignorance try to slam Denim?
> 
> Pair of matching lunkheads!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think there are many more possibilities.



tamarque said:


> That has been my take on it. You need to remind yourself that this is an increasing 'security state' which is really out of control regarding the public and its needs. I do not believe anyone can get into the White House, and into the private family quarters of a president--unless it was pre-arranged. So was this an attempt at a real attack? Or was it a false flag type situation to add to the fear mongering that is ongoing and the increased militarization of the US here at home?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Over on Denim and Pearls they're calling Benjamin Netanyahu "Bibi." Could not believe it until I looked twice.


Yesterday you were trashing that thread and posters with your Lib friends about how boring that thread is.

Today, you're showing your own ignorance _and_ the fact you read every post on that thread. Hypocrite or impostor?

BTW: Who, but you, doesn't know that Bibi is Netanyahu's nickname?

You need to educate yourself if you wish to be taken seriously in any discussion. I suggest you spend your time doing that instead of looking for something (usually nothing) on which to insult another.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> The whole world calls him "Bibi" including Obama but you and the Womb in your ignorance try to slam Denim?
> 
> Pair of matching lunkheads!


Hi Gerslay - welcome back!

Yep, you pegged them - a pair of lunkheads. We aren't surprised are we? 

Isn't dunderheads more accurate?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Yesterday you were trashing that thread and posters with your Lib friends about how boring that thread is.
> 
> Today, you're showing your own ignorance _and_ the fact you read every post on that thread. Hypocrite or impostor?
> 
> ...


Well, you know, it's not any thread that is boring, it's you showing up with your predictable blurb which is boring.

Go and play with Bibi!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Come on Gerslay, 'lunkheads,' really? I've seen you do much better than that!


I was being gentle with you for old times sake!

:-D


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> I was being gentle with you for old times sake!
> 
> :-D


I've seen you gentler!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I've seen you gentler!


That was in your previous incarnation!

:lol:


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Hi Gerslay - welcome back!
> 
> Yep, you pegged them - a pair of lunkheads. We aren't surprised are we?
> 
> Isn't dunderheads more accurate?


Thanks for the welcome...still on the road though, arriving home tonight!

Dunderheads ... Dunder Mifflin ... Dunder Muffins!

That's my new name for the libs...Dunder Muffins!

:thumbup:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Thanks for the welcome...still on the road though, arriving home tonight!
> 
> Dunderheads ... Dunder Mifflin ... Dunder Muffins!
> 
> ...


Oh you...!


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> If you would go back a few more years (like thousands) than what was stated in the article, you will read in History that the land belongs to Israel. No one else. If they have to fight to keep it, so be it.


*snort* By that line of reasoning the North American continent belongs to the Native Americans and should be returned to them on the double. There are some good reasons for supporting Israel, but the "they got there first" argument isn't one of them.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> The whole world calls him "Bibi" including Obama but you and the Womb in your ignorance try to slam Denim?
> 
> Pair of matching lunkheads!


You can't fix stupid, and they prove it over and over again. Good grief, they are as stupid as the ACLU people that were highlighted last night.

And then to comment that someone probably wanted someone to get into the White House is such a classic AOLW comment that it cracked me up. They always seem to think about such outlandish conspiracy theories about the Coward In Chief. How about the theory that even the Secret Service doesn't respect him? Hey that makes just as much sense.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Thanks for the welcome...still on the road though, arriving home tonight!
> 
> Dunderheads ... Dunder Mifflin ... Dunder Muffins!
> 
> ...


Cow patties?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> You can't fix stupid, and they prove it over and over again. Good grief, they are as stupid as the ACLU people that were highlighted last night.
> 
> And then to comment that someone probably wanted someone to get into the White House is such a classic AOLW comment that it cracked me up. They always seem to think about such outlandish conspiracy theories about the Coward In Chief. How about the theory that even the Secret Service doesn't respect him? Hey that makes just as much sense.


Oh dear, talking to yourself again LTL? Go play with KPG and Bibi, they're waiting for you. :-D


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

tamarque said:


> That has been my take on it. You need to remind yourself that this is an increasing 'security state' which is really out of control regarding the public and its needs. I do not believe anyone can get into the White House, and into the private family quarters of a president--unless it was pre-arranged. So was this an attempt at a real attack? Or was it a false flag type situation to add to the fear mongering that is ongoing and the increased militarization of the US here at home?


Tamala - I always agree with your comments outside of Israel and I saw on your website what a great knitter/designer you are. Plus you live in one of my favorite towns. Let us realize that our only difference is Israel and that neither of us are going to change opinions. I was a major lefty for decades (Masters in Marxist theory) but had to part ways over Israel and I am against gun control except for those automatic guns that are only meant to kill humans. Offer of peace.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Thanks for the welcome...still on the road though, arriving home tonight!
> 
> Dunderheads ... Dunder Mifflin ... Dunder Muffins!
> 
> ...


oh, you, missed you. Safe travels.

We had so much fun together .... cannot wait until we can meet again.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> You can't fix stupid, and they prove it over and over again. Good grief, they are as stupid as the ACLU people that were highlighted last night.
> 
> And then to comment that someone probably wanted someone to get into the White House is such a classic AOLW comment that it cracked me up. They always seem to think about such outlandish conspiracy theories about the Coward In Chief. How about the theory that even the Secret Service doesn't respect him? Hey that makes just as much sense.


 :-D


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Hi Lakes,

You sound skeptical about the speculations re: the WH break-in. How would you explain it?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> It's an alternate reality over there.


Everyone calls him Bibi. It's very informal over there (Israel).


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Another video from IS. They are now 1 mile away from Baghdad:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2774174/BREAKING-NEWS-New-video-released-British-hostage-John-Cantlie-talks-Obama-s-disappointingly-predictable-strategy-Isis.html


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Tamarque - I read a good deal of "The Origin ..." but so much of it was written by people with Arabic names (including Edward Said, whom I have heard speak on the subject) that I question its historical accuracy. Not that Arabs can't be accurate. They can, but they choose not to, because under Islam there's no responsibility to tell the truth when dealing with *******.

(The piece doesn't seem to mention the Uganda Program, which many Zionists supported: they were willing to settle on undeveloped land the Brits would give them in Uganda, just to leave Russia, where Jews were not safe. It's a funny piece of Zionist history. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/uganda.jpg )

Back to The Origin...: I will admit that the closing sentence is not anti-Zionist and a fair summary of what many Jews would like: "In the long run, only by admitting their culpability and making amends can Israelis live with their neighbors in peace. Only then can the centuries-old Jewish tradition of being a people of high moral character be restored. And only in this way can real security, peace and justice come to this ancient land."

Show me such a statement from an Arab writer, and I would be happier about your comments.

I have to admit that you're right about one thing you point to: "I find your existential angst <what an insulting phrase!> about Israel to be just way to<o> emotional for you to hear any other facts <even more insulting>." Like most Jews, I have family living in Israel. Some moved there from the United States and therefore have someplace to move back to if they have to leave Israel. Others are there because they needed to go somewhere when the USSR finally made it possible for Jews to leave. Others are the descendants of Jews who'd been living there since sometime in the 1800s. I am concerned for the safety of these people. And, yes, I see the attacks against Israel (physical and verbal) as threatening to Israel's existence. Anyone not wearing blinders would see them that way, too.

To quote you, "As for cheering human misery? Israelis sat out side in safety cheering the bombing of Gaza, a big party." This statement is a cheap one. Israelis finally felt safe from the rockets that have been peppering Israeli towns since Gaza was released by Ariel Sharon. This cheering can't compare with the young Arabs sent to restaurants and pizza places in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv simply to explode bombs and kill whoever happened to be around. And the cheerers were not paid for their efforts; in fact, they don't even expect 70 virgins when they get to heaven.

I'm tired of having to defend Israel, as I'm sure Israelis are, though my defense is only metaphorical and theirs is literal. And I don't believe your statements that ISIS was created by Israel; it's the kind of thing people like you invent to make Israel sound even worse than it is. I doubt that there's anything more for either of us to say on the subject, so please let's call a 21-day ceasefire.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I said nothing about Bibi. I do think there is an alternate reality in D&P.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> If you would go back a few more years (like thousands) than what was stated in the article, you will read in History that the land belongs to Israel. No one else. If they have to fight to keep it, so be it.


The Bible is not a real estate map, nor is it "History." Whom do you expect to convince with that statement?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Oh you...!


Isn't she clever? Just ask her, and she'll tell you how clever she is.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Cow patties?


Sorry. The word "COW" is reserved for you and your conservative, obnoxious friends. (Though I have to admit it was funnier than what Gerslay wrote.)


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

My Evil Republican Twin emailed me the following. I have no opinion on it but thought it might stimulate some conversation in lieu of name-calling.

Ive always found it strange that we havent heard any of the Muslim leaders around the world denounce all of the murders by terrorists and beheadings of innocents since the World Trade Center attacks. After reading the article below, I now know why..
We are in deep bandini folks!!

This is an interesting read.

However, having never had a close relationship with many Muslims --But it is a subject worth paying attention.

Islam in a Nutshell
Islam, not the Chinese nor the Russians, represent the greatest threat to the world and might be the fulfillment of the book of Revelation in the Holy Bible. This is very disturbing for a Christian to read, but read it and be educated.

Adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat

Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life.

Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the components.

Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges.

When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well.

Here's how it works:

As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in:

United States -- Muslim 0.6%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1.8%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:

France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law.
The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris, we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam, with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections in:

Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 15%

After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian
churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:

Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:

Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:

Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and is on-going in:

Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace. Here there's supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrasses are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in:

Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 100%

Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons.

'Before I was nine, I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel. -- Leon Uris, 'The Haj'

It is important to understand that in some countries, with well under 100% Muslim populations, such as France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts, nor schools, nor non-Muslim religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrasses. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death. Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate.

Today 's 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world's population. But their birth rates are higher than the birth rates of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists,  Jews, and all other believers. Muslims will exceed 50% of the world's population by the end of this century.

Well, boys and girls, today we are letting the fox guard the henhouse.
The wolves will be herding the sheep!

NOTE : Has anyone ever heard a new government official being identified as a devout Catholic , a devout Jew or a devout Protestant...? Just wondering.

Devout Muslims being appointed to critical Homeland Security positions?
Doesn't this make you feel safer already??

That should make the United States much safer, huh!!
Was it not "Devout Muslim men " that flew planes into U.S. buildings only 10 years ago?
We must never forget this..
Was it not a Devout Muslim man who killed 13 at Fort Hood ? (He killed "From within" -don't forget that).

Also: This is very interesting and we all need to read it from start to finish. Maybe this is why our American Muslims are so quiet and not speaking out about any atrocities. Can a good Muslim be a good American? This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. The following is his reply:

Theologically - no . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon God of Arabia

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)(Koran)

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews..

Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four Women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 )

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression.. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.

Therefore, after much study and deliberation. ... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. - - - They obviously cannot be both 'good' Muslims and good Americans. Call it what you wish, it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future. The religious war is bigger than we know or understand.

Can a Muslim be a good soldier???

Army Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, opened fire at Ft. Hood and Killed 13. He is a good Muslim!!!
Footnote: The Muslims have said they will destroy us from within.
SO FREEDOM IS NOT FREE.

THE MARINES WANT THIS TO ROLL ALL OVER THE U.S.

Please don't delete this until you send it on.

In God We Trust.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> My Evil Republican Twin emailed me the following. I have no opinion on it but thought it might stimulate some conversation in lieu of name-calling.
> 
> Ive always found it strange that we havent heard any of the Muslim leaders around the world denounce all of the murders by terrorists and beheadings of innocents since the World Trade Center attacks. After reading the article below, I now know why..
> We are in deep bandini folks!!


This really was worth reading, and I'm afraid it makes sense, given what I know about Islam. I don't like it, but I can't deny its possibility.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> My Evil Republican Twin emailed me the following. I have no opinion on it but thought it might stimulate some conversation in lieu of name-calling.


As always, before I comment I would love to see the source of this. Can you inquire?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Sorry. The word "COW" is reserved for you and your conservative, obnoxious friends. (Though I have to admit it was funnier than what Gerslay wrote.)


Yes, she worships the COW, Purl. Patties and all. It takes a full side of beef to keep her satisfied. When she runs out, she comes here looking for someone else to sink her teeth into.
She is living proof that stupid can't be fixed.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> *snort* By that line of reasoning the North American continent belongs to the Native Americans and should be returned to them on the double. There are some good reasons for supporting Israel, but the "they got there first" argument isn't one of them.


I think she needs KPG to educate her.....
:XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> As always, before I comment I would love to see the source of this. Can you inquire?


I got it from my evil twin via email and asked him that same question and still did not hear from him.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Yes, she worships the COW, Purl. Patties and all. It takes a full side of beef to keep her satisfied. When she runs out, she comes here looking for someone else to sink her teeth into.
> She is living proof that stupid can't be fixed.


You, Patty, are definitely not the COW type. Hello again. How have you been?


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> Hi Lakes,
> 
> You sound skeptical about the speculations re: the WH break-in. How would you explain it?


I was referring to Dame creating a conspiracy theory that someone wanted the guy to get into the WH, which insinuated that they would condone an assassination attempt. Just plain ridiculous theory.

Oh, but they should not be worried, Obama is hardly there. In fact, during his second term he has only attended 41% of the daily briefings. In fact.......shocker alert.......................he has spent more hours on the golf course than in the security briefing room. And he blames others for others for him not knowing about ISIS. Maybe if he had attended those briefings, he would have asked questions, gotten clarifications and if the people giving the briefings were incompetent, he would have known that. But alas, he would rather play golf and raise money than do his job.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> I was referring to Dame creating a conspiracy theory that someone wanted the guy to get into the WH, which insinuated that they would condone an assassination attempt. Just plain ridiculous theory.
> 
> Oh, but they should not be worried, Obama is hardly there. In fact, during his second term he has only attended 41% of the daily briefings. In fact.......shocker alert.......................he has spent more hours on the golf course than in the security briefing room. And he blames others for others for him not knowing about ISIS. Maybe if he had attended those briefings, he would have asked questions, gotten clarifications and if the people giving the briefings were incompetent, he would have known that. But alas, he would rather play golf and raise money than do his job.


You sound like a complete fool. You don't think that he can be briefed about anything outside of the WH? 
I feel sorry for your mate to have to live with such a whining harpie. 
Once again, you do not look smart by posting stupid rubbish.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> You, Patty, are definitely not the COW type. Hello again. How have you been?


Good to see you, Purl. I can see the NORWN's are making their appearance again. Strange how they couldn't wait to have us leave WOW thread. We did and here they are again foaming at the mouth like rapid dogs nipping at our heels. They are harassing and stalking us again. Poor old Cherf/KPG can't make it through a week without dropping her verbal flatulence among us. Keep the air freshener handy for when she slips in among us.
And LTL. Well, she is irrelevant. She just likes to try and look smart by slamming the Prez. Too bad it has the opposite effect.
I suggest we keep the topics going and ignore them like pesky flies. Of course once in a while one of us will swat.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I sort of like when the Denims come over. Why should we be preaching to the choir? I like the debate but not name-calling.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I sort of like when the Denims come over. Why should we be preaching to the choir? I like the debate but not name-calling.


But haven't you noticed that they can't debate without insults or calling people names. Or making a big deal about the current president when the former one did worse and they ignored him.

BTW, does anyone remember the guy who used to show up with press credentials so he could ask Bush easy questions? Then it turned out he had a website advertising gay sex. Though he was a fraud as far as press creds. were concerned, he was allowed into the WH quite often.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I was shaking my finger at many.

How long ago did that incident happen?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> I was referring to Dame creating a conspiracy theory that someone wanted the guy to get into the WH, which insinuated that they would condone an assassination attempt. Just plain ridiculous theory.
> 
> Oh, but they should not be worried, Obama is hardly there. In fact, during his second term he has only attended 41% of the daily briefings. In fact.......shocker alert.......................he has spent more hours on the golf course than in the security briefing room. And he blames others for others for him not knowing about ISIS. Maybe if he had attended those briefings, he would have asked questions, gotten clarifications and if the people giving the briefings were incompetent, he would have known that. But alas, he would rather play golf and raise money than do his job.


At least he didn't miss a memo telling him "Bin Ladin Determined To Strike in US," you know the one, from August 2001.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I was shaking my finger at many.
> 
> How long ago did that incident happen?


It was while Karl Rove had an office in the WH, so possibly between 2002 and 2004. I wish I could remember the guy's name (which was not the name on his press pass). Randi Rhodes had a lot of fun with him.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I was shaking my finger at many.
> 
> How long ago did that incident happen?


I found it, thanks to Google. Maybe we ought to let Google run the world, because I entered "Fraudulent press pass in Bush White House" and it immediately came up with Jeff Gannon's Wikipedia article.

But the best piece on it is from Salon, Feb. 2005 (it's long but worth it for the nostalgic chuckles):

THURSDAY, FEB 10, 2005 04:12 PM EST
*Fake news, fake reporter
Why was a partisan hack, using an alias and with no journalism background, given repeated access to daily White House press briefings?*
ERIC BOEHLERT

When President Bush bypassed dozens of eager reporters from nationally and internationally recognized news outlets and selected Jeff Gannon to pose a question at his Jan. 26 news conference, Bushs recognition bestowed instant credibility on the apparently novice reporter, as well as the little-known conservative organization he worked for at the time, called Talon News. That attention only intensified when Gannon used his nationally televised press conference time to ask Bush a loaded, partisan question  featuring a manufactured quote that mocked Democrats for being divorced from reality.

Gannons star turn quickly piqued the interest of many online commentators, who wondered how an obvious Republican operative had been granted access to daily White House press briefings normally reserved for accredited journalists. Two weeks later, a swarming investigation inside the blogosphere <http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/01/31/89011/-Plame-Leaked-by-Fake-News-Source-Part-VI > into Gannon and Talon News had produced all sorts of damning revelations about how Talon is connected at the hip to a right-wing activist organization called GOPUSA, how its news staff consists largely of volunteer Republican activists with no journalism experience, how Gannon often simply rewrote GOP press releases when filing his Talon dispatches. It also uncovered embarrassing information about Gannons past as well as his fake identity. When Gannon himself this week confirmed to the Washington Post that his name was a pseudonym, it only added to the sense of a bizarre hoax waiting to be exposed.

On Tuesday night, the reporter who apparently saw himself as a trailblazing conservative embedded with the liberal Washington press corps abruptly quit his post <http://mediacitizen.blogspot.com/2005/02/gannon-quits-after-blogger-inquiry.html> as Washington bureau chief and White House correspondent for Talon News, that after earlier taunting those digging into his past that he was hiding in plain sight. Contacted by e-mail for a comment, Gannon referred Salon to the message posted on his Web site: Because of the attention being paid to me I find it is no longer possible to effectively be a reporter for Talon News. In consideration of the welfare of me and my family I have decided to return to private life. Thank you to all those who supported me.

The Gannon revelations come on the heels of the discovery that Bush administration officials signed lucrative contracts for several conservative pundits who hyped White House initiatives and did not disclose the governments payments. The Talon News fiasco raises serious questions about who the White House is allowing into its daily press briefings: How can a reporter using a fake name and working for a fake news organization get press credentials from the White House, let alone curry enough favor with the notoriously disciplined Bush administration to get picked by the president in order to ask fake questions? The White House did not return Salons calls seeking answers to those questions.

The situation begs further investigation, says James Pinkerton, a media critic for Fox News who has worked for two Republican White Houses. In the six years I worked for Reagan and Bush I, I remember the White House being strict about who got in. Its inconceivable to me that the White House, especially after 9/11, gives credentials to people without doing a background check.

Gannon reportedly did not have whats known as a hard pass for the White House press room, which allows journalists to enter daily without getting prior approval each time. Instead Gannon picked up a daily pass by contacting the White House press office each morning and asking for clearance. Mark Smith, vice president of the White House Correspondents Association, says its up to White House officials to decide whom they want to wave in each day. They dont consult us. If they had, Smith says, he would have been very uncomfortable granting Gannon the same access as professional journalists.

And the association never would have backed a reporter using an alias. Says Pinkerton: If [Gannon] was walking around the White House with a pass that had a different name on it than his real name, thats pretty remarkable. Smith, who covers the White House for Associated Press radio, says he could have sworn that he saw credentials around Gannons neck with the name Jeff Gannon on them.

Somebody was waving him into the White House every day, notes David Brock, president and CEO of Media Matters for America, an online liberal advocacy group that led the way in raising questions about Gannon and Talon News.

Earlier this week, when asked about Gannons access, White House press secretary Scott McClellan essentially threw up his hands and said he has no control over who is in the press room and whom the president calls on during his rare press conferences. I dont think its the role of the press secretary to get into the business of being a media critic or picking and choosing who gets credentials, he told the Washington Post.

Thats like [McClellan] saying, Im chief of staff at a hospital and when a patient dies in surgery and it turns out the guy operating wasnt a doctor  [it's] not my business to be a medical critic, says Ron Suskind, a former Wall Street Journal reporter who has written extensively about the inner workings of the Bush administration. Nobody is asking him to be a media critic. Theyre asking him to make sure people in the press room  the ones using up precious time during extremely rare press conferences  are acting journalists, honest brokers dealing with genuine inquiry to get at the truth.

Suskind questions the White Houses explanation that Bush had no idea who Gannon was when he called on him during the press conference. Frankly, my sense is that almost nothing happens inside the White House episodically. They are so ardent with their message discipline. It all happens for a reason.

And its not as if finding out the connection between Talon and GOPUSA was difficult. The Standing Committee of Correspondents, a group of congressional reporters who oversee press credential distribution on Capitol Hill, did just that last spring when Gannon approached the organization to apply for a press pass. We didnt recognize the publication, so we asked for information about what Talon was, says Julie Davis, a reporter for the Baltimore Sun who is on the committee. We did some digging, and it became clear it was owned by the owner of GOPUSA. And we had asked for some proof of Talons editorial independence from that group  They didnt provide anything, so we denied their credentials, which is pretty rare, says Davis. She adds, Theres limited space, and particularly after 9/11 theres limited access to the Capitol. Our role is to make sure journalists have as much access as possible, and to ensure that credentials mean something.

Talons unusual access to the White House has upset journalists at other small outlets who dont enjoy the same privileged connections. Were a weekly newspaper with a circulation of 22,000 and Im pretty sure we couldnt get a White House press pass, says Mike Hudson, editor of the Niagara Falls Reporter in Niagara Falls, N.Y. How does Gannon, which isnt even his real name, get past security? Hudson wrote to Rep. Louise Slaughter, D-N.Y., asking her office to look into how a partisan political organization and an individual with no credentials as a reporter  and apparently operating under an assumed name  landed a coveted spot in the White House press corps.

Slaughter, a vocal critic of the administrations pundit payola practices, wrote to the White House on Monday urging Bush to please explain to the Congress and to the American people how and why the individual known as Mr. Gannon was repeatedly cleared by your staff to join the legitimate White House press corps.

Until this week, what little was known about Gannon was vague. But several Web sites he is connected with provide some possible clues. Introducing himself to readers of his ConservativeGuy.com Web site, Gannon once wrote, Ive been a preppie, a yuppie, blue-collar, green-collar and white collar. Ive served in the military, graduated from college, taught in the public school system, was a union truck driver, a management consultant, a fitness instructor and an entrepreneur. Im a two-holiday Christian and I usually vote Republican.

When the recent controversy erupted, Gannon positioned himself as more of an ardent right-winger, not to mention ardent Christian. On JeffGannon.com he wrote, Im everything people on the Left seem to despise. Im a man who is white, politically conservative, a gun-owner, an SUV driver and Ive voted for Republicans. Im pro-American, pro-military, pro-democracy, pro-capitalism, pro-free speech, anti-tax and anti-big government. Most importantly, Im a Christian. Not only by birth, but by rebirth through the blood of Jesus Christ. Posting on the right-wing FreeRepublic.com, Gannon, while working as a White House reporter, once urged fellow Freepers to stage a demonstration outside Sen. John Kerrys headquarters and chant Jane Fondas name and throw DNC medals, a reference to the Vietnam ribbons of honor Kerry threw away during an antiwar demonstration in the early 1970s.

As a would-be reporter, Gannon often copied entire sections from White House press releases and pasted them into his stories, according to an analysis done by Media Matters. This despite the fact he once ridiculed legitimate journalists for working off the talking points provided by the Democrats.

According to his bio on Talons Web site (which has now been removed), hes a graduate of the Pennsylvania State University System, which could mean anything from Penn State to a much smaller state-run school such as West Chester University. He also noted that hes a graduate of Leadership Institute Broadcast School of Journalism  which is a two-day, $50 seminar run by Morton Blackwell, a longtime Republican activist who co-founded the Rev. Jerry Falwells Moral Majority and has said that those on the ultra left harness hate and envy in their quest for unlimited power. Blackwells journalism seminar aims to prepare conservatives for success in politics, government and the news media, according to the institutes Web site. The classes are also designed to bring balance to the media.

It was Blackwell, serving as a Virginia delegate to the GOP convention this summer, who handed out purple bandages in an effort to make fun of Kerrys Vietnam War wounds. They read: It was just a self-inflicted scratch, but you see I got a Purple Heart for it? Blackwell also served as a mentor to a young field organizer who is now Bushs deputy chief of staff. (Karl Rove called Blackwell just days after winning the 2000 election to thank him for his help.)

What likely forced Gannon to quit Talon News Tuesday were the revelations uncovered by bloggers such as World O Crap, AmericaBlog <http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/02/quick-reflection-on-gannon-gate.html >, Mediacitizen, Daily Kos and Eschaton, along with their readers, about Gannons past. For instance, bloggers uncovered evidence suggesting that the person and company that own the Web site JeffGannon.com also registered the gay-themed sites hotmilitarystud.com, militaryescorts.com and militaryescortsm4m.com. And according to this online research, that company, Bedrock Corp., is owned by a man named Jim Guckert, leading to speculation that Guckert and Gannon are one and the same. Bedrock is based in Wilmington, Del., where Gannon apparently is from.

As for Talon, its Web site says it is committed to delivering accurate, unbiased news coverage to our readers. The site is run by Bobby Eberle, a Texas Republican Party delegate and political activist who also runs GOPUSA.com, which touts itself as bringing the conservative message to America. As Media Matters documented, In addition to Eberles dual role as the head of both entities, both domain names TalonNews.com and GOPUSA.com are registered to the same address in Pearland, Texas, which appears to be Eberles personal residence. The TalonNews.com domain name registration lists Eberles e-mail address as [email protected]  Talon News apparently consists of little more than Eberle, Gannon, and a few volunteers, and is virtually indistinguishable from GOPUSA.com  GOPUSAs officers and directors show a similar lack of journalism experience, but plenty of experience working for Republican causes. After Media Matters highlighted the background of Talons news team, Talon quickly yanked their bios from the site.

There is evidence that ownership of both Talon and GOPUSA changed hands Monday, just as the Gannon controversy was growing. More recently, many archived stories, including some dealing with the issue of homosexuality and defending the ban on gay marriage, were scrubbed from the Talon site. Eberle at Talon and GOPUSA did not respond to calls seeking comment.

Last year Gannon and Talon made a blip on the Beltway radar over an interview Gannon did with former U.S. diplomat Joseph Wilson, whose wife, Valerie Plame, was exposed as a CIA agent by conservative columnist Robert Novak. That potentially illegal disclosure prompted an independent counsel investigation. Gannon apparently attracted investigators attention when, in the interview with Wilson, he referred to an unclassified document that may have been distributed to conservative allies in the press to bolster the administrations case that it was Wilsons wife who suggested he be sent to Niger to investigate the claim that Iraq tried to purchase uranium, or yellowcake, from the African nation.

Its likely Talon and Gannon would have remained obscure had the swaggering reporter not popped his now famous question to Bush. The details surrounding the Jan. 26 press room incident are telling, as they highlight the elasticity Gannon and other partisan advocates often use in their reporting. Gannon asked Bush, Senate Democratic leaders have painted a very bleak picture of the U.S. economy. He continued, [Minority Leader] Harry Reid was talking about soup lines, and Hillary Clinton was talking about the economy being on the verge of collapse. Yet, in the same breath, they say that Social Security is rock solid and theres no crisis there. How are you going to work  you said youre going to reach out to these people  how are you going to work with people who seem to have divorced themselves from reality?

Reid never made any such comment about soup lines.

That afternoon conservative talk show host Rush Limbaugh crowed that Gannons question was a repeat, a rehash, of a precise point I made on this program yesterday. However, Limbaugh conceded that Reid had never actually said soup lines. That was simply Limbaughs exaggerated characterization of Reids concerns. Gannon either heard that phrase on Limbaughs show or read it in Limbaughs online column and then inserted it into his loaded question to Bush. On Feb. 2, with Gannon under fire for his lack of journalistic ethics, Limbaugh suddenly flip-flopped and told listeners that Gannons question about Reid and soup lines was an accurate recitation of what the Senate Democrat leaders had said. Then, in a Feb. 7 article in the Washington Post, Gannon finally conceded the quote was made up, but suggested he had nothing to apologize for.

All of which begs the question, Who are they issuing credentials to? asks Hudson at the Niagara Falls Reporter. Could a guy from [Comedy Central's] The Daily Show get press credentials from this White House?

Eric Boehlert, a former senior writer for Salon, is the author of "Lapdogs: How the Press Rolled Over for Bush." http://www.salon.com/2005/02/10/gannon_affair/


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> I sort of like when the Denims come over. Why should we be preaching to the choir? I like the debate but not name-calling.


What debate? It is always name calling, SQ, or proselytising.
KFN gives a great debate, but she is not a member of the Denim thread.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> What debate? It is always name calling, SQ, or proselytising.
> KFN gives a great debate, but she is not a member of the Denim thread.


And can't be, because she never resorts to name calling.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> *snort* By that line of reasoning the North American continent belongs to the Native Americans and should be returned to them on the double. There are some good reasons for supporting Israel, but the "they got there first" argument isn't one of them.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: But I hope the Native Americans win the war.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't think it's possible to understand anyone by reducing them to numbers. Much too complex.



Poor Purl said:


> This really was worth reading, and I'm afraid it makes sense, given what I know about Islam. I don't like it, but I can't deny its possibility.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Keep trying.



SQM said:


> I got it from my evil twin via email and asked him that same question and still did not hear from him.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Found this site with part of 'email' SQM posted:

http://www.pastorpauley.com/tzedekah/articles/Muslims_good_americans.pdf

Here's another site (there are many of them):

http://mediamattersaction.org/emailchecker/200912010004


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I don't think it's possible to understand anyone by reducing them to numbers. Much too complex.


No, you can't understand any*one*, but we're talking about a society, not an individual. Statistics tend to work pretty well for large groups of people.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: But I hope the Native Americans win the war.


You'd probably have to give up your land, in that case. Here in NY, we bought ours, for $24, so we get to keep it. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Found this site with part of 'email' SQM posted:
> 
> http://www.pastorpauley.com/tzedekah/articles/Muslims_good_americans.pdf
> 
> ...


Why does the Christian Pastor Pauley speak in talmudic Hebrew?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Why does the Christian Pastor Pauley speak in talmudic Hebrew?


I just asked him. Says it's easier on his tongue!


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Cow patties?


More Christian love on display


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> You can't fix stupid, and they prove it over and over again. Good grief, they are as stupid as the ACLU people that were highlighted last night.
> 
> And then to comment that someone probably wanted someone to get into the White House is such a classic AOLW comment that it cracked me up. They always seem to think about such outlandish conspiracy theories about the Coward In Chief. How about the theory that even the Secret Service doesn't respect him? Hey that makes just as much sense.


I

And said in the spirit of love and compassion . . . .


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I just asked him. Says it's easier on his tongue!


Is this a joke? How could Hebrew be easier on anyone's tongue, with all its cchhh's? Scots and Germans maybe could do it, but who else?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> I
> 
> And said in the spirit of love and compassion . . . .


The rabidity is getting worse. Not doing her any favours though.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> More Christian love on display


Apparently.

You know how LTL brags about never insulting people? Here's an example of her never insulting anyone.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> I
> 
> And said in the spirit of love and compassion . . . .


and true understanding and acceptance.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Is this a joke? How could Hebrew be easier on anyone's tongue, with all its cchhh's? Scots and Germans maybe could do it, but who else?


Yes, a joke!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Yes, a joke!


How do you expect me to recognize a joke without a smiley face?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> How do you expect me to recognize a joke without a smiley face?


I was going to post this - :shock: , but I forgot!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I was going to post this - :shock: , but I forgot!


That would have done it. :roll:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Found this site with part of 'email' SQM posted:
> 
> http://www.pastorpauley.com/tzedekah/articles/Muslims_good_americans.pdf
> 
> ...


Ugh. A freakin' preacher. Sorry, but anything coming from pastorpauley I suspect is intensely colored by his Christian viewpoint. I would rather learn about the Muslim either from a Muslim or from someone with actual credentials on the subject of what Muslims believe. The second link is much more balanced and points out a valid truth, that the writer selected passages from the Quran that supported his viewpoint in the same way anyone familiar with the bible can easily paint Christianity as violent, misogynistic and hateful.

That is not to say that I think Islam is the religion of peace they claim it to be. I see Islam as a grave threat to the world as it seems to be so easily twisted to violence. But I'm not ready to condemn all Muslims based on this rather alarmist piece, either.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> I
> 
> And said in the spirit of love and compassion . . . .


as per usual -- never ever changes.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

SQM said:


> My Evil Republican Twin emailed me the following. I have no opinion on it but thought it might stimulate some conversation in lieu of name-calling.
> 
> Ive always found it strange that we havent heard any of the Muslim leaders around the world denounce all of the murders by terrorists and beheadings of innocents since the World Trade Center attacks. After reading the article below, I now know why..
> We are in deep bandini folks!!
> ...


I for one want to thank you for posting this from your brother. Maybe some will finial learn what the truth is and what is really happening in this world.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> I for one want to thank you for posting this from your brother. Maybe some will finial learn what the truth is and what is really happening in this world.


HI Yarnie,

Yes he would almost fit with the Denims.He liked Bush and I sort of miss Bush because he allotted me 8 years of calling my twin an Idiot.

However, he doesn't knit and is a social liberal. But he calls himself a fiscal conservative and seems to scorn taxes. Whatever! He is my Womb Mate!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Explanation for WH security breach:

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/10/01/15/00/white-house-breach-unacceptable


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Explanation for WH security breach:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/10/01/15/00/white-house-breach-unacceptable


To be perfectly honest, there is no excuse or explanation for the breaches. There have always been the fence jumpers, but I can never remember a time when someone got in. I do no think it warrants a 'Blue Ribbon Committee' because that takes years and has a lot of posturing for TV face time. I think it was apparent by the outrage on all of the Congress' faces that this is will not be tolerated. What concerns me the most is not just the security breaches but their number and frequency. I believe that it is the administration's responsibility to clean it's own house. But based on past situations by this administration there will be a lot of rhetoric but no one will be fired. Unfortunately the Executive Branch is not acting like an executive: taking responsibility, firing people not qualified for the job and hiring the best person for the job, not a political hack.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> You sound like a complete fool. You don't think that he can be briefed about anything outside of the WH?
> I feel sorry for your mate to have to live with such a whining harpie.
> Once again, you do not look smart by posting stupid rubbish.


You may not like it, but it is the truth. Of course one can be briefed outside of the WH, but within the last two years he has attended only 41% of the briefings. This in spite of and knowing since June of 2013 that ISIS was growing and this was once again confirmed at the Daily Press Briefing on October 31, 2013, letting Syria Cross the 'red line' that led to ISIS' empowerment. Not physically attending these daily meetings, asking questions, getting clarifications, gathering more information and reading people's faces to get a feel for the urgency is a dereliction of duty to the country. Case in point, he could return from vacation to the WH for a bachelor party the day before the first beheading, but would not stay in Washington for the rest of the week to deal with this crisis and to be at the briefing meetings knowing full well that ISIS was not a JV terrorist team, but found it more important to play golf and joke around like nothing had happened.

Compare and contrast Obama with the Israeli Prime Minister and the British Prime Minister and their handling of the terrorists. Israel defended herself and has a PM that speaks like a leader, leads like a leader, and people believe that he means what he says. The day after the first beheading I was jealous of the Brits because their PM gave such a powerful speech with such passion and conviction that I could not imagine our president capable of doing because no one would believe him. Why would anyone believe a word that comes out of his mouth? He has lied to the American public over and over again. He has let Syria cross the very fluid red line in the sand over and over again with no consequences. His blames 'them and they' for his failures. He looked like a duck drowning on 60 Minutes. He is not a leader, but a narcissist that can not believe or tolerate any criticism without retaliation.

To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize  Voltaire


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Ugh. A freakin' preacher. Sorry, but anything coming from pastorpauley I suspect is intensely colored by his Christian viewpoint. I would rather learn about the Muslim either from a Muslim or from someone with actual credentials on the subject of what Muslims believe. The second link is much more balanced and points out a valid truth, that the writer selected passages from the Quran that supported his viewpoint in the same way anyone familiar with the bible can easily paint Christianity as violent, misogynistic and hateful.
> 
> That is not to say that I think Islam is the religion of peace they claim it to be. I see Islam as a grave threat to the world as it seems to be so easily twisted to violence. But I'm not ready to condemn all Muslims based on this rather alarmist piece, either.


I agree with you, Green. I dislike Islam as a religion, but our new neighbors are Muslim and I'm looking forward to getting to know them. I've already met the wife--she's veiled from head to toe but seems like a nice lady and has already extended the hand of friendship by coming over to introduce herself. It seems only fair to treat folks as individuals and be as open and friendly as possible.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

R


lovethelake said:


> To be perfectly honest, there is no excuse or explanation for the breaches. There have always been the fence jumpers, but I can never remember a time when someone got in. I do no think it warrants a 'Blue Ribbon Committee' because that takes years and has a lot of posturing for TV face time. I think it was apparent by the outrage on all of the Congress' faces that this is will not be tolerated. What concerns me the most is not just the security breaches but their number and frequency. I believe that it is the administration's responsibility to clean it's own house. But based on past situations by this administration there will be a lot of rhetoric but no one will be fired. Unfortunately the Executive Branch is not acting like an executive: taking responsibility, firing people not qualified for the job and hiring the best person for the job, not a political hack.


Yes, blame Obama and his administration for this occurrence.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree with you, Green. I dislike Islam as a religion, but our new neighbors are Muslim and I'm looking forward to getting to know them. I've already met the wife--she's veiled from head to toe but seems like a nice lady and has already extended the hand of friendship by coming over to introduce herself. It seems only fair to treat folks as individuals and be as open and friendly as possible.


We have a large Muslim population in our city. I have had many occasions to come into contact with many before I retired. They were always friendly and gracious and wanted what was best for their children. Muslim leaders have given talks in the community and at some churches to inform and to promote acceptance and tolerance.
I also wonder how many Muslims are "cultural" Muslims and not so religious. Just as many people call themselves Christian or Jewish, many are religious in name only. They follow the traditions but don't go to church or temple or mosque.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Ugh. A freakin' preacher. Sorry, but anything coming from pastorpauley I suspect is intensely colored by his Christian viewpoint. I would rather learn about the Muslim either from a Muslim or from someone with actual credentials on the subject of what Muslims believe. The second link is much more balanced and points out a valid truth, that the writer selected passages from the Quran that supported his viewpoint in the same way anyone familiar with the bible can easily paint Christianity as violent, misogynistic and hateful.
> 
> That is not to say that I think Islam is the religion of peace they claim it to be. I see Islam as a grave threat to the world as it seems to be so easily twisted to violence. But I'm not ready to condemn all Muslims based on this rather alarmist piece, either.


What an ignorant statement! How can you say that the second link is more balanced if you didn't even bother reading both links? If you had even bothered looking at the link that wombat posted, you would have seen that this Pastor Pauley was NOT the source if the e mail, but instead was critical of it. He addressed each point and called it slander. He cautions against speaking of any community, race, ethnic group, gender, or age group as a whole. He said it would be a sin to pass the e-mail along to others.

As with many things, you jump to conclusions that are colored by your own prejudices. Instead of believing what you're told, you should actually read the evidence before commenting on it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> To be perfectly honest, there is no excuse or explanation for the breaches. There have always been the fence jumpers, but I can never remember a time when someone got in. I do no think it warrants a 'Blue Ribbon Committee' because that takes years and has a lot of posturing for TV face time. I think it was apparent by the outrage on all of the Congress' faces that this is will not be tolerated. What concerns me the most is not just the security breaches but their number and frequency. I believe that it is the administration's responsibility to clean it's own house. But based on past situations by this administration there will be a lot of rhetoric but no one will be fired. Unfortunately the Executive Branch is not acting like an executive: taking responsibility, firing people not qualified for the job and hiring the best person for the job, not a political hack.


At the start of your message, I was about to agree with you. But sadly, I read to the end, and was immediately reminded of Heckuva Job Brownie, who stood around doing nothing while Katrina destroyed New Orleans, and those Heritage Foundation interns, working under Bremer, who were sent to run Iraq and somehow misplaced billions in cash while they did it.

In other words, this president is not the first one to appoint incompetents and keep them in the job, and there have been worse consequences.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What an ignorant statement! How can you say that the second link is more balanced if you didn't even bother reading both links? If you had even bothered looking at the link that wombat posted, you would have seen that this Pastor Pauley was NOT the source if the e mail, but instead was critical of it. He addressed each point and called it slander. He cautions against speaking of any community, race, ethnic group, gender, or age group as a whole. He said it would be a sin to pass the e-mail along to others.
> 
> As with many things, you jump to conclusions that are colored by your own prejudices. Instead of believing what you're told, you should actually read the evidence before commenting on it.


I have to agree with you about Pastor Pauley's message. It was Christian in the best sense of the word. I found it strange that he used Hebrew phrases all over, but it was otherwise a very good response to the email.

As was the second link.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What an ignorant statement! How can you say that the second link is more balanced if you didn't even bother reading both links? If you had even bothered looking at the link that wombat posted, you would have seen that this Pastor Pauley was NOT the source if the e mail, but instead was critical of it. He addressed each point and called it slander. He cautions against speaking of any community, race, ethnic group, gender, or age group as a whole. He said it would be a sin to pass the e-mail along to others.
> 
> As with many things, you jump to conclusions that are colored by your own prejudices. Instead of believing what you're told, you should actually read the evidence before commenting on it.


I deserved that. In this particular case.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> We have a large Muslim population in our city. I have had many occasions to come into contact with many before I retired. They were always friendly and gracious and wanted what was best for their children. Muslim leaders have given talks in the community and at some churches to inform and to promote acceptance and tolerance.
> I also wonder how many Muslims are "cultural" Muslims and not so religious. Just as many people call themselves Christian or Jewish, many are religious in name only. They follow the traditions but don't go to church or temple or mosque.


Excellent point!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> At the start of your message, I was about to agree with you. But sadly, I read to the end, and was immediately reminded of Heckuva Job Brownie, who stood around doing nothing while Katrina destroyed New Orleans, and those Heritage Foundation interns, working under Bremer, who were sent to run Iraq and somehow misplaced billions in cash while they did it.
> 
> In other words, this president is not the first one to appoint incompetents and keep them in the job, and there have been worse consequences.


I don't know what to think. The secret service is the secret service regardless of who's at it's head. I would think that these guys are trained in such a way that they know what to do without being told. I'm assuming that this administration didn't bring in and hire all new people. If that were the case, I could accept mere incompetence. But if these are the secret service agents that have been there for years and have had the same training as previous agents, then I have to think, there's something else going on. IMO, there are three possibilities; 1) mere incompetence, 2) somebody wants the president taken out or 3) they're planning more restrictions against the people.

Of course, my conspiratorial mind thinks, there's more going on here, than meets the eye. Big question! If this were mere incompetence, why would they advertise it? Wouldn't this have been dealt with in a secretive manner? By making a public spectacle of all of this, they're just encouraging more crazies to try. Theyre telling everyone, the white house is wide open. Why?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I have to agree with you about Pastor Pauley's message. It was Christian in the best sense of the word. I found it strange that he used Hebrew phrases all over, but it was otherwise a very good response to the email.
> 
> As was the second link.


I tried to find out who this Pastor Pauley was. There are several by that name. But a couple of things come to mind about the Hebrew thing, 1) he could be a messianic Jew or 2) there are some Christians who are trying to go back to the roots of Christianity which of course, lie in Judaism. They use the Jewish terms because they come from the original bible. They try to incorporate GOD'S original laws and teaching into present day Christianity.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I'm assuming that everyone has heard about the Ebola case in Dallas? A man from Liberia traveled to Dallas to visit relatives. He developed symptoms and went to the hospital. The hospital did not check him for Ebola, but gave him an antibiotic and sent him on his way. Later, he returned to the hospital, was diagnosed and put into isolation. We should all be concerned. This is how easily this could spread throughout the US.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/01/health/airline-passenger-with-ebola-is-under-treatment-in-dallas.html?_r=0


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't know what to think. The secret service is the secret service regardless of who's at it's head. I would think that these guys are trained in such a way that they know what to do without being told. I'm assuming that this administration didn't bring in and hire all new people. If that were the case, I could accept mere incompetence. But if these are the secret service agents that have been there for years and have had the same training as previous agents, then I have to think, there's something else going on. IMO, there are three possibilities; 1) mere incompetence, 2) somebody wants the president taken out or 3) they're planning more restrictions against the people.
> 
> Of course, my conspiratorial mind thinks, there's more going on here, than meets the eye. Big question! If this were mere incompetence, why would they advertise it? Wouldn't this have been dealt with in a secretive manner? By making a public spectacle of all of this, they're just encouraging more crazies to try. Theyre telling everyone, the white house is wide open. Why?


I'm sure there are more than 3 possibilities, and I think your third doesn't make sense. There may simply be a few incompetents - I've recently learned that education and IQ are not considered in SS hiring.

As far as advertising what happened, I suspect it was really more a matter of not being able to keep everybody quiet. All it takes is one person hearing about it to convey it to the media.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm assuming that everyone has heard about the Ebola case in Dallas? A man from Liberia traveled to Dallas to visit relatives. He developed symptoms and went to the hospital. The hospital did not check him for Ebola, but gave him an antibiotic and sent him on his way. Later, he returned to the hospital, was diagnosed and put into isolation. We should all be concerned. This is how easy this could spread throughout the US.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/01/health/airline-passenger-with-ebola-is-under-treatment-in-dallas.html?_r=0


Ebola is not an air-borne illness so you need to come in contact with someone who is actually sick with Ebola and handle their bodily fluids. It is not so easy to catch.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I tried to find out who this Pastor Pauley was. There are several by that name. But a couple of things come to mind about the Hebrew thing, 1) he could be a messianic Jew or 2) there are some Christians who are trying to go back to the roots of Christianity which of course, lie in Judaism. They use the Jewish terms because they come from the original bible. They try to incorporate GOD'S original laws and teaching into present day Christianity.


Okay, maybe messianic. For the rest, the Hebrew he used was not biblical Hebrew but more modern phrases. Yesterday I called it "talmudic," but it wasn't even that. It's the kind of Hebrew present-day rabbis would drop into their (English-language) sermons.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm sure there are more than 3 possibilities, and I think your third doesn't make sense. There may simply be a few incompetents - I've recently learned that education and IQ are not considered in SS hiring.
> 
> As far as advertising what happened, I suspect it was really more a matter of not being able to keep everybody quiet. All it takes is one person hearing about it to convey it to the media.


There were more than just a few incompetents plus their incompetent dogs. Also it is being learned that Obama was on an elevator with a gun-toting ex con when he was visiting the CDC. I believe it was deliberate laxity.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> There were more than just a few incompetents plus their incompetent dogs. Also it is being learned that Obama was on an elevator with a gun-toting ex con when he was visiting the CDC. I believe it was deliberate laxity.


But whose deliberateness?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> But whose deliberateness?


Take your pick. Influential bigots is my choice.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Take your pick. Influential bigots is my choice.


That works for me. Thanks.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> That works for me. Thanks.


No problema. I am always willing to point my three-toed paw at influential bigots.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Ebola is not an air-borne illness so you need to come in contact with someone who is actually sick with Ebola and handle their bodily fluids. It is not so easy to catch.


The Ebola virus can spread in close proximity, through areosoled particles. It can also live on surfaces that have been touched by the infected.
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/lab-bio/res/psds-ftss/ebola-eng.php

Initially, they put identified cases into bio containment units of which, there are only four in the US. Now they're saying that isolation within any hospital is adequate. I think we're going to see many more cases, spread through human error, which may or may not be happening in Dallas. How many people came in contact with this man in Dallas, or touched surfaces where he may have left the virus?

If Ebola were not so easy to catch, it would not have reached epidemic proportions in Africa, not to mention the trained American doctors who caught it. Our government is merely trying to calm people's fears so that the economic engine in this country, doesn't shut down. When Ebola becomes more widespread (and it will), people won't go to work, won't send their kids to school and won't go shopping. When or if, Ebola truly threatens Americans, don't expect the government to tell you the truth.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The Ebola virus can spread in close proximity, through areosoled particles. It can also live on surfaces that have been touched by the infected.
> http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/lab-bio/res/psds-ftss/ebola-eng.php
> 
> Initially, they put identified cases into bio containment units of which, there are only four in the US. Now they're saying that isolation within any hospital is adequate. I think we're going to see many more cases, spread through human error, which may or may not be happening in Dallas. How many people came in contact with this man in Dallas, or touched surfaces where he may have left the virus?
> ...


Get out your tinfoil hats, everyone! Nebraska is about to warn us of yet another conspiracy. They're everywhere!

"Clearly, susceptibility to conspiracy theories isnt a matter of objectively evaluating evidence. Its more about alienation. People who fall for such theories dont trust the government or the media." By William Saletan published in The Slate.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Get out your tinfoil hats, everyone! Nebraska is about to warn us of yet another conspiracy. They're everywhere!
> 
> "Clearly, susceptibility to conspiracy theories isnt a matter of objectively evaluating evidence. Its more about alienation. People who fall for such theories dont trust the government or the media." By William Saletan published in The Slate.


"Recent studies by psychologists and social scientists in the US and the UK suggest that contrary to mainstream media stereotypes, those labeled " conspiracy theorists" appear to be saner than those who accept the official versions of contested events."

"Additionally, it turned out that the anti-conspiracy people were not only hostile, but fanatically attached to their own conspiracy theories as well."

The term "conspiracy theorist", " was invented and put into wide circulation by the CIA to smear and defame people questioning the JFK assassination. The CIA's campaign to popularize the term 'conspiracy theory' and make conspiracy belief a target of ridicule and hostility must be credited, unfortunately, with being one of the most successful propaganda initiatives of all time."

Psychologist Laurie Manwell points out in an article published in American Behavioral Science (2010), "that anti conspiracy people are unable to think clearly about such apparent state crimes against democracy as 9/11 due to their inability to process information that conflicts with preexisting belief."

University of Buffalo professor Steven Hoffman adds that anti-conspiracy people are typically prey to strong "confirmation bias"- that is, they seek out information that confirms their pre-existing beliefs, while using irrational mechanisms (such as the " conspiracy theory" label) to avoid conflicting information."

"The extreme irrationality of those who attack " conspiracy theories " has been ably exposed by Communications professors Ginna Hurting and Martin Orr of Boise State University. In a peer reviewed article entitled "Dangerous Machinery: 'Conspiracy Theorist' as a Transpersonal Strategy of Exclusion", they wrote: " If I call you a conspiracy theorist, it matters little whether you have actually claimed that a conspiracy exists or whether you have simply raised an issue that I would rather avoid... By labeling you, I strategically exclude you from the sphere where public speech, debate, and conflict occur."

So! Go pull the blanket up over your head! I wouldn't want to expose you to new ideas. I know that you just can't process them!
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/07/12/313399/conspiracy-theorists-vs-govt-dupes/


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No time for blue-ribbon commissions. Off with their heads.



Wombatnomore said:


> Explanation for WH security breach:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/10/01/15/00/white-house-breach-unacceptable


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Bullfeathers.



lovethelake said:


> You may not like it, but it is the truth. Of course one can be briefed outside of the WH, but within the last two years he has attended only 41% of the briefings. This in spite of and knowing since June of 2013 that ISIS was growing and this was once again confirmed at the Daily Press Briefing on October 31, 2013, letting Syria Cross the 'red line' that led to ISIS' empowerment. Not physically attending these daily meetings, asking questions, getting clarifications, gathering more information and reading people's faces to get a feel for the urgency is a dereliction of duty to the country. Case in point, he could return from vacation to the WH for a bachelor party the day before the first beheading, but would not stay in Washington for the rest of the week to deal with this crisis and to be at the briefing meetings knowing full well that ISIS was not a JV terrorist team, but found it more important to play golf and joke around like nothing had happened.
> 
> Compare and contrast Obama with the Israeli Prime Minister and the British Prime Minister and their handling of the terrorists. Israel defended herself and has a PM that speaks like a leader, leads like a leader, and people believe that he means what he says. The day after the first beheading I was jealous of the Brits because their PM gave such a powerful speech with such passion and conviction that I could not imagine our president capable of doing because no one would believe him. Why would anyone believe a word that comes out of his mouth? He has lied to the American public over and over again. He has let Syria cross the very fluid red line in the sand over and over again with no consequences. His blames 'them and they' for his failures. He looked like a duck drowning on 60 Minutes. He is not a leader, but a narcissist that can not believe or tolerate any criticism without retaliation.
> 
> To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize  Voltaire


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Excellent approach. Inform us too.



susanmos2000 said:


> I agree with you, Green. I dislike Islam as a religion, but our new neighbors are Muslim and I'm looking forward to getting to know them. I've already met the wife--she's veiled from head to toe but seems like a nice lady and has already extended the hand of friendship by coming over to introduce herself. It seems only fair to treat folks as individuals and be as open and friendly as possible.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

He better get to work on the polar ice too. 40,000 walrus are gathering in AK on the bare shore.



cookiequeen said:


> R
> 
> Yes, blame Obama and his administration for this occurrence.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And they are not suicide bombers.



cookiequeen said:


> We have a large Muslim population in our city. I have had many occasions to come into contact with many before I retired. They were always friendly and gracious and wanted what was best for their children. Muslim leaders have given talks in the community and at some churches to inform and to promote acceptance and tolerance.
> I also wonder how many Muslims are "cultural" Muslims and not so religious. Just as many people call themselves Christian or Jewish, many are religious in name only. They follow the traditions but don't go to church or temple or mosque.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And he has put himself and his family at even greater risk than usual. Wouldn't you love to hear the private family conversations about this? Time to use the undisclosed location?



Poor Purl said:


> At the start of your message, I was about to agree with you. But sadly, I read to the end, and was immediately reminded of Heckuva Job Brownie, who stood around doing nothing while Katrina destroyed New Orleans, and those Heritage Foundation interns, working under Bremer, who were sent to run Iraq and somehow misplaced billions in cash while they did it.
> 
> In other words, this president is not the first one to appoint incompetents and keep them in the job, and there have been worse consequences.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think whistleblowers went to the press when they realized nothing was being done. At some point Secret Service was put under authority of politicos. Bad, BAD! Maybe bureaucracy is just rearing its ugly head. Maybe it's more than that. Must change immediately. I say call in the Marines...from the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, if necessary.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't know what to think. The secret service is the secret service regardless of who's at it's head. I would think that these guys are trained in such a way that they know what to do without being told. I'm assuming that this administration didn't bring in and hire all new people. If that were the case, I could accept mere incompetence. But if these are the secret service agents that have been there for years and have had the same training as previous agents, then I have to think, there's something else going on. IMO, there are three possibilities; 1) mere incompetence, 2) somebody wants the president taken out or 3) they're planning more restrictions against the people.
> 
> Of course, my conspiratorial mind thinks, there's more going on here, than meets the eye. Big question! If this were mere incompetence, why would they advertise it? Wouldn't this have been dealt with in a secretive manner? By making a public spectacle of all of this, they're just encouraging more crazies to try. Theyre telling everyone, the white house is wide open. Why?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Great Ceasar's ghost. OK, if it is only spread by direct contact with contaminated bodily fluids, but it only takes an 'oversight' by a hospital neglecting the patient's travel history and Pandora's Box is open. How many other patients and hospital care-givers could have been contaminated before the original patient was quarantined? Who needs conspiracies? My knees are knocking.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm assuming that everyone has heard about the Ebola case in Dallas? A man from Liberia traveled to Dallas to visit relatives. He developed symptoms and went to the hospital. The hospital did not check him for Ebola, but gave him an antibiotic and sent him on his way. Later, he returned to the hospital, was diagnosed and put into isolation. We should all be concerned. This is how easily this could spread throughout the US.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/01/health/airline-passenger-with-ebola-is-under-treatment-in-dallas.html?_r=0


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Influential bigot in Secret Service? No limits on conspiracies.



SQM said:


> Take your pick. Influential bigots is my choice.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Psychologist Laurie Manwell points out in an article published in American Behavioral Science (2010) said:


> Quoting a conspiracy theory as factual. Imagine that. Your source, Laurie Manwell, has an hour-long video telling us why 9-11 was a conspiracy. One would not expect her to view NON-believers of such nonsense as able to "think clearly." There is disagreement on this.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Great Ceasar's ghost. OK, if it is only spread by direct contact with contaminated bodily fluids, but it only takes an 'oversight' by a hospital neglecting the patient's travel history and Pandora's Box is open. How many other patients and hospital care-givers could have been contaminated before the original patient was quarantined? Who needs conspiracies? My knees are knocking.


Thank you for seeing the point I was making, and for not calling me names!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Quoting a conspiracy theory as fact. Imagine that.


I thought you'd have the blanket up over your head by now.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I thought you'd have the blanket up over your head by now.


That's your default position, not mine.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> Oh, but they should not be worried, Obama is hardly there. .


It is something to be worried about. In this instance, his youngest daughter was in their quarters.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Good to see you, Purl. I can see the NORWN's are making their appearance again. Strange how they couldn't wait to have us leave WOW thread. We did and here they are again foaming at the mouth like rapid dogs nipping at our heels. They are harassing and stalking us again. Poor old Cherf/KPG can't make it through a week without dropping her verbal flatulence among us. Keep the air freshener handy for when she slips in among us.
> And LTL. Well, she is irrelevant. She just likes to try and look smart by slamming the Prez. Too bad it has the opposite effect.
> I suggest we keep the topics going and ignore them like pesky flies. Of course once in a while one of us will swat.


If you are so paranoid about being harassed and stalked, then stay away from all threads but your LOLL thread. You'll be safe there as we don't post on it and most of your friends have abandoned it. A safe haven for you to talk to yourself, discuss any topic of your choosing and free range to answer yourself. Your own "CHEERS" establishment where everyone knows your name - since you are the only one there. :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> If you are so paranoid about being harassed and stalked, then stay away from all threads but your LOLL thread. You'll be safe there as we don't post on it and most of your friends have abandoned it. A safe haven for you to talk to yourself, discuss any topic of your choosing and free range to answer yourself. Your own "CHEERS" establishment where everyone knows your name - since you are the only one there. :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


. :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> If you are so paranoid about being harassed and stalked, then stay away from all threads but your LOLL thread. You'll be safe there as we don't post on it and most of your friends have abandoned it. A safe haven for you to talk to yourself, discuss any topic of your choosing and free range to answer yourself. Your own "CHEERS" establishment where everyone knows your name - since you are the only one there. :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


Once again you are wrong solow. I am not paranoid about being stalked, I just made an obvious observation. I will post where I will, and throw a biscuit when you roll over. But you are still snapping and making useless noise and collecting avatars from the left. They must help you in your stalking practices.
Go lay by your dish like a good little cur. No biscuits for you today.
As for LOLL, you are lying again. KPG is coaching you well. 
I post there occasionally, as do the other ladies.
Bad doggie! No biscuits for you tomorrow either.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

And now, we will go to war with Syria, which is why we were funding Isis in the first place. A year ago, they wanted to go to war with Syria but the American people wouldn't support it. Conveniently, Isis has given the American people a reason to beat the drums of war. Are we falling for it?
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/09/30/380603/obama-reconsiders-attacking-assad/


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> If you are so paranoid about being harassed and stalked, then stay away from all threads but your LOLL thread. You'll be safe there as we don't post on it and most of your friends have abandoned it. A safe haven for you to talk to yourself, discuss any topic of your choosing and free range to answer yourself. Your own "CHEERS" establishment where everyone knows your name - since you are the only one there. :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


How cute, laughing at your own jokes.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

They're preparing the American people for troops on the ground. General Dempsey raised the possibility that ground troops could be involved, despite pledges from obama to the contrary.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/dempsey-raises-possibility-of-involving-us-combat-troops-in-fight-against-islamic-state/2014/09/16/8e13a742-3da1-11e4-b0ea-8141703bbf6f_story.html

While fewer than 4 in 10 Americans approve of sending ground troops, 75% say that it is either likely or somewhat likely that we will send in ground troops.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/29/politics/poll-americans-back-airstrikes/

They've pretty much convinced the American people that war is necessary. If one false flag operation doesn't work, another will.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> "Recent studies by psychologists and social scientists in the US and the UK suggest that contrary to mainstream media stereotypes, those labeled " conspiracy theorists" appear to be saner than those who accept the official versions of contested events."
> 
> "Additionally, it turned out that the anti-conspiracy people were not only hostile, but fanatically attached to their own conspiracy theories as well."
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, many of your ideas aren't new; they go back at least as far as the John Birch Society and probably earlier than that.

I haven't the patience to read that whole article in you link, but I did read about the first study, and guess what - the conclusions can't be valid. You can't learn anything about the general public by reading comments from a self-selected group. Of course conspiracist comments would outnumber conventionalist ones. It's mainly people who feel strongly about something who will post comments. The rest of us go about our daily lives. I've never left a comment anywhere (at least if messages on KP don't count), so I - and people like me - are left out of such studies. Whoever peer-reviewed that one is a worse statistician than I am, and I'm not a statistician.

Besides, I suspect it's normal for most people to believe in a couple of conspiracies. I, for one, think there was more to 9/11 than we were told, simply because so much went wrong that day. Why weren't any of our planes available to go after the hijackers?

But to regard everything as one huge interlocking conspiracy shows a measure of illogic. Chemtrails? Currency dealings? the UN? Ebola?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The Ebola virus can spread in close proximity, through areosoled particles. It can also live on surfaces that have been touched by the infected.
> http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/lab-bio/res/psds-ftss/ebola-eng.php
> 
> Initially, they put identified cases into bio containment units of which, there are only four in the US. Now they're saying that isolation within any hospital is adequate. I think we're going to see many more cases, spread through human error, which may or may not be happening in Dallas. How many people came in contact with this man in Dallas, or touched surfaces where he may have left the virus?
> ...


Gee! You are always a bundle of laughs.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Secret Service head resigned:

http://nypost.com/2014/10/01/secret-service-director-resigns-amid-security-lapses-at-white-house/

Rightfully so. Seems the SS is in a hell of a mess.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Unfortunately, many of your ideas aren't new; they go back at least as far as the John Birch Society and probably earlier than that.
> 
> I haven't the patience to read that whole article in you link, but I did read about the first study, and guess what - the conclusions can't be valid. You can't learn anything about the general public by reading comments from a self-selected group. Of course conspiracist comments would outnumber conventionalist ones. It's mainly people who feel strongly about something who will post comments. The rest of us go about our daily lives. I've never left a comment anywhere (at least if messages on KP don't count), so I - and people like me - are left out of such studies. Whoever peer-reviewed that one is a worse statistician than I am, and I'm not a statistician.
> 
> ...


According to the Fire Chief of Purchase, NY in 2001, the Pennsylvania PLane was taken down by one of our fighter jets. By that time, the Govt. knew what was happening and shot down the plane and then made a heros' story out of that.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> According to the Fire Chief of Purchase, NY in 2001, the Pennsylvania PLane was taken down by one of our fighter jets. By that time, the Govt. knew what was happening and shot down the plane and then made a heros' story out of that.


And how did the Fire Chief of Purchase know that? And how was the govt. able to synthesize all those phone calls from passengers to family?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Gee! You are always a bundle of laughs.


Oh, yeah! In addition, the Ebola patient from Dallas has had close contact with five children who attend four different schools. They've put additional medical personnel in those schools. Those children (family members) and others with whom he had close personal contact, are being quarantined. The two ambulance attendants who transported the patient to the hospital, are also being quarantined. The ambulance has now been set aside but not before transporting others before the diagnosis was made. One can certainly see how this could rapidly spread.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> Excellent approach. Inform us too.


It's definitely an interesting situation. I know some Muslim moms at my son's school, but only on a casual basis--these new folks are just across the driveway, in the other half of our duplex, in fact. As I said, they seem very friendly and the wife appears to have her husband firmly in hand--she does all the talking while he waits shyly on the sidelines.

The weird thing is that after a couple of days of watching this veiled lady and similarly-clad female friends and/or family members bustling about the place, _I'm_ starting to feel a bit peculiar about going out into the yard with my uncovered head, T-shirt, and sloppy jeans. DH's reaction has been just the opposite--he got out his razor and trimmed his beard way back after seeing all the folically-blessed menfolk on the other side of the fence.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> And how did the Fire Chief of Purchase know that? And how was the govt. able to synthesize all those phone calls from passengers to family?


What were the content of the calls? Did you ever actually hear them? I believe our govt. can fabricate anything it wants. Spin Spin Spin

Off topic but this is for My Al aka CQ.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/01/diagram-sentence-grammar_n_5908462.html?ir=Books&utm_campaign=100114&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Alert-books&utm_content=Title


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> What were the content of the calls? Did you ever actually hear them? I believe our govt. can fabricate anything it wants. Spin Spin Spin


But why would the government bother with a coverup? It would have been tragic had that plane been shot down, but I believe most Americans would have understood. The only thing worse than the loss of those 44 souls would have been the added loss of hundreds or even thousands more had that plane reached the destination the hijackers had in mind.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> What were the content of the calls? Did you ever actually hear them? I believe our govt. can fabricate anything it wants. Spin Spin Spin
> 
> Off topic but this is for My Al aka CQ.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/01/diagram-sentence-grammar_n_5908462.html?ir=Books&utm_campaign=100114&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Alert-books&utm_content=Title


It was 13 years ago, but I seem to recall a couple of family members recounting a last phone call with a passenger.

But who am I to question the veracity of the Fire Chief of Purchase (which I think is a suburb of White Plains, which is itself a suburb)? And now I'm going to read the secret message you sent to the Empress of the Cookie.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Gee, Piers Morgan agrees with love the lake.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2776592/A-slapdash-Secret-Service-isn-t-s-wrong-White-House-real-scandal-President-complacent-protecting-Americans.html


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> According to the Fire Chief of Purchase, NY in 2001, the Pennsylvania PLane was taken down by one of our fighter jets. By that time, the Govt. knew what was happening and shot down the plane and then made a heros' story out of that.


You left out the part about how the Fire Chief "knows" this. If he saw it, then others would have seen it. If it was shot down, there would be tell-tale evidence and it's too much to believe that everyone examining the wreckage could be kept silent.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> What were the content of the calls? Did you ever actually hear them? I believe our govt. can fabricate anything it wants. Spin Spin Spin
> 
> Off topic but this is for My Al aka CQ.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/01/diagram-sentence-grammar_n_5908462.html?ir=Books&utm_campaign=100114&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Alert-books&utm_content=Title


You just brought back gut-wrenching memories from my childhood. I'd rather have my fingernails pulled out than go through that nightmare again.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'd give up trying to explain the common fallacies expressed here, but I'm too stubborn.



DGreen said:


> Quoting a conspiracy theory as factual. Imagine that. Your source, Laurie Manwell, has an hour-long video telling us why 9-11 was a conspiracy. One would not expect her to view NON-believers of such nonsense as able to "think clearly." There is disagreement on this.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'll call you a very nice lady who tries to open her mind to all possibilities. Right now anyway.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you for seeing the point I was making, and for not calling me names!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sometimes I think you may be as stubborn as I am. Proud to know you.



DGreen said:


> That's your default position, not mine.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Don't dare try to banish us. It won't work. Even you should know that by now.



soloweygirl said:


> If you are so paranoid about being harassed and stalked, then stay away from all threads but your LOLL thread. You'll be safe there as we don't post on it and most of your friends have abandoned it. A safe haven for you to talk to yourself, discuss any topic of your choosing and free range to answer yourself. Your own "CHEERS" establishment where everyone knows your name - since you are the only one there. :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Not me.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And now, we will go to war with Syria, which is why we were funding Isis in the first place. A year ago, they wanted to go to war with Syria but the American people wouldn't support it. Conveniently, Isis has given the American people a reason to beat the drums of war. Are we falling for it?
> http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/09/30/380603/obama-reconsiders-attacking-assad/


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> How cute, laughing at your own jokes.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Purl, you're the best.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I believe we should strengthen our borders and wait for allies and 'friends' to step up. If it's not enough for them to fight, why should we? IMHO



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> They're preparing the American people for troops on the ground. General Dempsey raised the possibility that ground troops could be involved, despite pledges from obama to the contrary.
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/dempsey-raises-possibility-of-involving-us-combat-troops-in-fight-against-islamic-state/2014/09/16/8e13a742-3da1-11e4-b0ea-8141703bbf6f_story.html
> 
> While fewer than 4 in 10 Americans approve of sending ground troops, 75% say that it is either likely or somewhat likely that we will send in ground troops.
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

A joke, right?



SQM said:


> According to the Fire Chief of Purchase, NY in 2001, the Pennsylvania PLane was taken down by one of our fighter jets. By that time, the Govt. knew what was happening and shot down the plane and then made a heros' story out of that.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Personally, I believe some or all of these situations may prove to be fact. I hope not, but I fear so.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh, yeah! In addition, the Ebola patient from Dallas has had close contact with five children who attend four different schools. They've put additional medical personnel in those schools. Those children (family members) and others with whom he had close personal contact, are being quarantined. The two ambulance attendants who transported the patient to the hospital, are also being quarantined. The ambulance has now been set aside but not before transporting others before the diagnosis was made. One can certainly see how this could rapidly spread.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Careful. Edging on conspiracy theories. IMHO



SQM said:


> What were the content of the calls? Did you ever actually hear them? I believe our govt. can fabricate anything it wants. Spin Spin Spin
> 
> Off topic but this is for My Al aka CQ.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/01/diagram-sentence-grammar_n_5908462.html?ir=Books&utm_campaign=100114&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Alert-books&utm_content=Title


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's just opinion from a British guy trying to make his program interesting. Humbug. IMHO



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Gee, Piers Morgan agrees with love the lake.
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2776592/A-slapdash-Secret-Service-isn-t-s-wrong-White-House-real-scandal-President-complacent-protecting-Americans.html


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Careful. Edging on conspiracy theories. IMHO


True, grammar is a conspiracy concocted by hyperliterates to make everyone else feel stupid.

Oh, you meant the Pennsylvania flight, not the grammar. Never mind.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> It's just opinion from a British guy trying to make his program interesting. Humbug. IMHO


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Who is that in your new avatar?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I'll call you a very nice lady who tries to open her mind to all possibilities. Right now anyway.


Thank you! For now, anyway.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Not me.


Me neither!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I believe we should strengthen our borders and wait for allies and 'friends' to step up. If it's not enough for them to fight, why should we? IMHO


I agree with the strengthening the borders part.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> True, grammar is a conspiracy concocted by hyperliterates to make everyone else feel stupid.
> 
> Oh, you meant the Pennsylvania flight, not the grammar. Never mind.


 :XD:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Health officials in Dallas are closely monitoring a second possible Ebola patient who was in close contact with the first.
http://www.wtsp.com/story/news/2014/10/01/ebola-second-person-monitored/16528391/

I wonder where they've been lately and how many people they've come in contact with.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> A joke, right?


It was told to me in all seriousness. Makes sense to me totally.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> True, grammar is a conspiracy concocted by hyperliterates to make everyone else feel stupid.
> 
> Oh, you meant the Pennsylvania flight, not the grammar. Never mind.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Renoir lady with hat & cat on her lap.



Poor Purl said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
> 
> Who is that in your new avatar?


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Secret Service head resigned:
> 
> http://nypost.com/2014/10/01/secret-service-director-resigns-amid-security-lapses-at-white-house/
> 
> Rightfully so. Seems the SS is in a hell of a mess.


Our personal homes have better security than the White House!!!! watching that stupid woman 
testify it made me want to slap her upside the 
head. She was not genuine in being sorry for 
anything. The guard that tackled and stopped the 
man from running around through the White 
House was off duty. It really makes you wonder 
what the hell is going on. The Secret Service 
coulda let the dogs loose and they would have 
taken the guy down and the dogs wouldn't kill him. 
What the heck is their problem? Resign you wicked woman resign. Stupid is as stupid does. Oh boy don't get me started. Lately everyone is 
stupid. I mean the ones who are supposed to be 
professionals that are supposed to know what 
they're doing.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

damemary said:


> I'm flabbergasted on this one. Almost seems as though someone wanted him to get in.


Yes. I think it was a trial run.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

damemary said:


> It's an alternate reality over there.


Whhhaaatttt!!!????
.....oh yeah they have no sense over there.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Isn't she clever? Just ask her, and she'll tell you how clever she is.


Clever enough to get the best of you more than once; and we all know you're the smartest person on KP!!!

;-)

How's your foot?


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Explanation for WH security breach:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/10/01/15/00/white-house-breach-unacceptable


I wonder if the Secret Service agents are recruited from the stupid idiots in the post office.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree with you, Green. I dislike Islam as a religion, but our new neighbors are Muslim and I'm looking forward to getting to know them. I've already met the wife--she's veiled from head to toe but seems like a nice lady and has already extended the hand of friendship by coming over to introduce herself. It seems only fair to treat folks as individuals and be as open and friendly as possible.


watch your back with muslims around.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> R
> 
> Yes, blame Obama and his administration for this occurrence.


and everything else too. I mean he should be blamed when there's clouds in the sky.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm assuming that everyone has heard about the Ebola case in Dallas? A man from Liberia traveled to Dallas to visit relatives. He developed symptoms and went to the hospital. The hospital did not check him for Ebola, but gave him an antibiotic and sent him on his way. Later, he returned to the hospital, was diagnosed and put into isolation. We should all be concerned. This is how easily this could spread throughout the US.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/01/health/airline-passenger-with-ebola-is-under-treatment-in-dallas.html?_r=0


I'd like to know why the SOB was even allowed in this country. and why did he all of a sudden decide to travel to the US after he had touched and handled a sickly deathly ill patient with ebola. I think he knew he was getting sick and all of a sudden decided to travel here so he could check into a hospital. but before that he threw up all over the sidewalk.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> But whose deliberateness?


the darkside.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Get out your tinfoil hats, everyone! Nebraska is about to warn us of yet another conspiracy. They're everywhere!
> 
> "Clearly, susceptibility to conspiracy theories isnt a matter of objectively evaluating evidence. Its more about alienation. People who fall for such theories dont trust the government or the media." By William Saletan published in The Slate.


I like to question authority. Lately authority is really stupid.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> And how did the Fire Chief of Purchase know that? And how was the govt. able to synthesize all those phone calls from passengers to family?


maybe he investigated the burn marks on the ground.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> It's definitely an interesting situation. I know some Muslim moms at my son's school, but only on a casual basis--these new folks are just across the driveway, in the other half of our duplex, in fact. As I said, they seem very friendly and the wife appears to have her husband firmly in hand--she does all the talking while he waits shyly on the sidelines.
> 
> The weird thing is that after a couple of days of watching this veiled lady and similarly-clad female friends and/or family members bustling about the place, _I'm_ starting to feel a bit peculiar about going out into the yard with my uncovered head, T-shirt, and sloppy jeans. DH's reaction has been just the opposite--he got out his razor and trimmed his beard way back after seeing all the folically-blessed menfolk on the other side of the fence.


I'd probably go higher a bunch of strippers and have them parade around my yard...lol.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> But why would the government bother with a coverup? It would have been tragic had that plane been shot down, but I believe most Americans would have understood. The only thing worse than the loss of those 44 souls would have been the added loss of hundreds or even thousands more had that plane reached the destination the hijackers had in mind.


I think because the government is so used to covering up everything it's going to cover up anything.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No argument here. I thought I'd 'seen it all.' Boy, was I wrong. I am astonished and MAH.


ute4kp said:


> Our personal homes have better security than the White House!!!! watching that stupid woman
> testify it made me want to slap her upside the
> head. She was not genuine in being sorry for
> anything. The guard that tackled and stopped the
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And we're holding Blue Ribbon Commissions. Give em time. Eventually they'll believe the sorry state of security (as if there was no clue with the hookers in Columbia.)



ute4kp said:


> Yes. I think it was a trial run.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> Whhhaaatttt!!!????
> .....oh yeah they have no sense over there.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

.



ute4kp said:


> I'd probably go higher a bunch of strippers and have them parade around my yard...lol.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> I like to question authority. Lately authority is really stupid.


Nothing wrong with questioning, but there are some who believe everything that happens points to their favorite conspiracy theory. Tiresome.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Well, here's a doozy! This article quotes an official from the Dallas Department of Health and Human Services as saying that family members and others who have been in contact with the Ebola patient have NOT been quarantined. They are relying on these individuals to "self isolate". I have to wonder if we have IDIOTS running this country!!!
http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/10/01/6165611/officials-say-only-one-ebola-case.html?rh=1


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Well, here's a doozy! This article quotes an official from the Dallas Department of Health and Human Services as saying that family members and others who have been in contact with the Ebola patient have NOT been quarantined. They are relying on these individuals to "self isolate". I have to wonder if we have IDIOTS running this country!!!
> http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/10/01/6165611/officials-say-only-one-ebola-case.html?rh=1


This seems reasonable to me. After all, the students have been only been in contact with a person who's had contact with the Ebola patient...seems unlikely that they could catch it in this indirect way. Ebola is scary, sure, but I think it's important not to overreact. Remember the hysteria in the early days of AIDS? We don't want that happening again.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Nothing wrong with questioning, but there are some who believe everything that happens points to their favorite conspiracy theory. Tiresome.


You've made it absolutely, perfectly clear that you think everything I say is a conspiracy theory. So you can just give it up now! There are many things I THINK about you, but I restrain myself from saying them. Perhaps you could restrain yourself as well! Maybe we could just stick to addressing issues, without flinging around personal assaults. We all know what you think or what you don't think. I propose that we move on.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> This seems reasonable to me. After all, the students have been only been in contact with a person who's had contact with the Ebola patient...seems unlikely that they could catch it in this indirect way. Ebola is scary, sure, but I think it's important not to overreact. Remember the hysteria in the early days of AIDS? We don't want that happening again.


He caught the disease by TOUCHING someone who had it. What are the chances that he didn't touch his children? Or his wife?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> This seems reasonable to me. After all, the students have been only been in contact with a person who's had contact with the Ebola patient...seems unlikely that they could catch it in this indirect way. Ebola is scary, sure, but I think it's important not to overreact. Remember the hysteria in the early days of AIDS? We don't want that happening again.


Oh! I wasn't talking about quarantining the students at the school, I was referring to family members and those who had close contact with him. I think they should be quarantined!


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> At the start of your message, I was about to agree with you. But sadly, I read to the end, and was immediately reminded of Heckuva Job Brownie, who stood around doing nothing while Katrina destroyed New Orleans, and those Heritage Foundation interns, working under Bremer, who were sent to run Iraq and somehow misplaced billions in cash while they did it.
> 
> In other words, this president is not the first one to appoint incompetents and keep them in the job, and there have been worse consequences.


Here is a core disagreement between us: these people were not incompetent. They did exactly what was intended. It is only the propaganda of incompetence which makes for good public drama and self-righteousness. Bush was right when he said 'mission accomplished.' It just wasn't a mission that most people wanted or accepted, but the neo-cons did.

The current WH breach? Have to question the whole story and will wait to see what the solutions will be. That will be more informative to me than all the mainstream news drama. The resignation of the head of security is all part of the drama. Political appointees become pawns in the drama so this woman needed to go. However, she will not lose out. She will turn up with some very lucrative job and high paid speaking engagements, and perhaps a multimillion dollar book deal.

And what about this guy with a gun in the elevator with Obama? First, he didn't try to shoot Obama. So what was he doing there? Was this simply a test of the system? Was some group testing their access for some future purpose? Was this something of an inside job in the planning? I suspect there have been more threats against O and his family than other presidents given the rabid racism in this country. But this is something that smells of a security plan, not a breach.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> He caught the disease by TOUCHING someone who had it. What are the chances that he didn't touch his children? Or his wife?


He touched her, yes. But as the woman was already sick she was doubtless covered in vomit and sweat. I honestly don't understand what all the panic is about. Ebola patients aren't contagious until they start showing symptoms, and then the virus can only be spread by exposure to their contaminated bodily fluids. To me something like the flu seems a lot worse--all someone has to do is sneeze or cough on you, and *bingo* you've got it too.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm sure there are more than 3 possibilities, and I think your third doesn't make sense. There may simply be a few incompetents - I've recently learned that education and IQ are not considered in SS hiring.
> 
> As far as advertising what happened, I suspect it was really more a matter of not being able to keep everybody quiet. All it takes is one person hearing about it to convey it to the media.


Maybe but you assume there is very little discipline amongst these services. I think they are highly disciplined and if there was a leak, it was intentional. So for what purpose?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh! I wasn't talking about quarantining the students at the school, I was referring to family members and those who had close contact with him. I think they should be quarantined!


I'm sure they have the sense to stay home until they know they're OK. People are pretty alert to the dangers of Ebola, and I'm sure no one takes it casually or want to spread it around.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You've made it absolutely, perfectly clear that you think everything I say is a conspiracy theory. So you can just give it up now! There are many things I THINK about you, but I restrain myself from saying them. Perhaps you could restrain yourself as well! Maybe we could just stick to addressing issues, without flinging around personal assaults. We all know what you think or what you don't think. I propose that we move on.


I propose that you get over your paranoia. I don't see your name in that statement. There are plenty of conspiracy theorists on this site.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The Ebola virus can spread in close proximity, through areosoled particles. It can also live on surfaces that have been touched by the infected.
> http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/lab-bio/res/psds-ftss/ebola-eng.php
> 
> Initially, they put identified cases into bio containment units of which, there are only four in the US. Now they're saying that isolation within any hospital is adequate. I think we're going to see many more cases, spread through human error, which may or may not be happening in Dallas. How many people came in contact with this man in Dallas, or touched surfaces where he may have left the virus?
> ...


Nah. This is part of the medical fascism that is occurring in the country. There have been numerous medical events where the public is scared into submission--or attempts at doing this. Remember the anthrax scares with talk of imposed vaccines--untested of course and owned by political interests. Or the bogus flu epidemics with enforced vaccines which make more billions for big pharma despite the dangers of the vaccine and it lack of efficacy. Now we have Ebola with the govt patent applications for the virus and any alternative variations of it AND all treatments! This is again the Big Lie and fear mongering. I have to wonder about the virus to begin with as the US has major bio weaponry labs that often have 'leaks' of micro-organisms. There is a long history of the govt/industry trying to cause epidemics. None have ever materialized and only result in a few deaths and illnesses easily recovered. But they keep trying.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm sure they have the sense to stay home until they know they're OK. People are pretty alert to the dangers of Ebola, and I'm sure no one takes it casually or want to spread it around.


I think you're assuming too much. I don't think that the average person would self isolate for 21 days. I don't think that the average person has 21 days worth of food in their home. They would be going out. I also don't think we should be so cavalier about this disease. If these disease were that hard to catch, there wouldn't be an epidemic. You wouldn't see doctors catching it. When you hear doctors and scientists expressing concern, there's a reason for that concern. It's important to not cause a panic but I think its irresponsible to not quarantine those known to have been exposed. There are so many ways this could be inadvertently spread.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You've made it absolutely, perfectly clear that you think everything I say is a conspiracy theory. So you can just give it up now! There are many things I THINK about you, but I restrain myself from saying them. Perhaps you could restrain yourself as well! Maybe we could just stick to addressing issues, without flinging around personal assaults. We all know what you think or what you don't think. I propose that we move on.


On second thought - I have a different answer. I do think you have a favorite conspiracy theory but you refuse to come out and say it because you know you would get a lot of blowback from more rational people. Shall we give it a name? Like New World Order? Fits when you think about it, l but I could be wrong. Why don't you just come out and tell us exactly what master plan you think is controlling the government, current events, etc.?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Nah. This is part of the medical fascism that is occurring in the country. There have been numerous medical events where the public is scared into submission--or attempts at doing this. Remember the anthrax scares with talk of imposed vaccines--untested of course and owned by political interests. Or the bogus flu epidemics with enforced vaccines which make more billions for big pharma despite the dangers of the vaccine and it lack of efficacy. Now we have Ebola with the govt patent applications for the virus and any alternative variations of it AND all treatments! This is again the Big Lie and fear mongering. I have to wonder about the virus to begin with as the US has major bio weaponry labs that often have 'leaks' of micro-organisms. There is a long history of the govt/industry trying to cause epidemics. None have ever materialized and only result in a few deaths and illnesses easily recovered. But they keep trying.


I agree with what you're saying to a point. At some point, one of these germs is going to run wild and get beyond control.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think you're assuming too much. I don't think that the average person would self isolate for 21 days. I don't think that the average person has 21 days worth of food in their home. They would be going out. I also don't think we should be so cavalier about this disease. If these disease were that hard to catch, there wouldn't be an epidemic. You wouldn't see doctors catching it. When you hear doctors and scientists expressing concern, there's a reason for that concern. It's important to not cause a panic but I think its irresponsible to not quarantine those known to have been exposed. There are so many ways this could be inadvertently spread.


I think you are right on this one. People are pretty selfish and totally capable of denial. It would also be helpful to remember that the epidemic in Africa has become huge because they do not have the kind of sanitation or health care we do. Doctors in that area are begging for disinfecting supplies - simple chlorine bleach - that they don't have. There is also ignorance, superstition and other cultural factors.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> On second thought - I have a different answer. I do think you have a favorite conspiracy theory but you refuse to come out and say it because you know you would get a lot of blowback from more rational people. Shall we give it a name? Like New World Order? Fits when you think about it, l but I could be wrong. Why don't you just come out and tell us exactly what master plan you think is controlling the government, current events, etc.?


I've never made any secret about the fact that I think they're aiming for total global control. You're just a little late to the game!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I think you are right on this one. People are pretty selfish and totally capable of denial. It would also be helpful to remember that the epidemic in Africa has become huge because they do not have the kind of sanitation or health care we do. Doctors in that area are begging for disinfecting supplies - simple chlorine bleach - that they don't have. There is also ignorance, superstition and other cultural factors.


Why! You must be a conspiracy theorist!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> Our personal homes have better security than the White House!!!! watching that stupid woman
> testify it made me want to slap her upside the
> head. She was not genuine in being sorry for
> anything. The guard that tackled and stopped the
> ...


I like the "Lately every one is stupid" line just on it's own! :XD:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> I wonder if the Secret Service agents are recruited from the stupid idiots in the post office.


You're in fine form today!

:XD:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> I like to question authority. Lately authority is really stupid.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Why! You must be a conspiracy theorist!


Please explain the logic on that one.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> He touched her, yes. But as the woman was already sick she was doubtless covered in vomit and sweat. I honestly don't understand what all the panic is about. Ebola patients aren't contagious until they start showing symptoms, and then the virus can only be spread by exposure to their contaminated bodily fluids. To me something like the flu seems a lot worse--all someone has to do is sneeze or cough on you, and *bingo* you've got it too.


Because Ebola has such a high mortality rate, people are rattled.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Because Ebola has such a high mortality rate, people are rattled.


As they should be. Rattled, but not in a state of panic.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> You may not like it, but it is the truth. Of course one can be briefed outside of the WH, but within the last two years he has attended only 41% of the briefings. This in spite of and knowing since June of 2013 that ISIS was growing and this was once again confirmed at the Daily Press Briefing on October 31, 2013, letting Syria Cross the 'red line' that led to ISIS' empowerment. Not physically attending these daily meetings, asking questions, getting clarifications, gathering more information and reading people's faces to get a feel for the urgency is a dereliction of duty to the country. Case in point, he could return from vacation to the WH for a bachelor party the day before the first beheading, but would not stay in Washington for the rest of the week to deal with this crisis and to be at the briefing meetings knowing full well that ISIS was not a JV terrorist team, but found it more important to play golf and joke around like nothing had happened.
> 
> Compare and contrast Obama with the Israeli Prime Minister and the British Prime Minister and their handling of the terrorists. Israel defended herself and has a PM that speaks like a leader, leads like a leader, and people believe that he means what he says. The day after the first beheading I was jealous of the Brits because their PM gave such a powerful speech with such passion and conviction that I could not imagine our president capable of doing because no one would believe him. Why would anyone believe a word that comes out of his mouth? He has lied to the American public over and over again. He has let Syria cross the very fluid red line in the sand over and over again with no consequences. His blames 'them and they' for his failures. He looked like a duck drowning on 60 Minutes. He is not a leader, but a narcissist that can not believe or tolerate any criticism without retaliation.
> 
> To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize  Voltaire


Great post LTL.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Please explain the logic on that one.


I'll spell it out for you. If you agree with anything "I" say, you must be a conspiracy theorist.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> As they should be. Rattled, but not in a state of panic.


Oh look! We agree again!

Although, I'm not sure "rattled" is the right word. I would choose concerned or vigilent.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> maybe he investigated the burn marks on the ground.


1.No. He knew of the fighter plane taking the Pa. plane down shortly after it happened.

2.At the WH, there was no lock on the door, a woman SS was watching the door and could not bring down the man. The question is why aren't Marines protecting the WH instead of the SS like most countries have in some form? Also SS should be removed from the idiots at "Homeland" (hate that word) Security and go back to Treasury where they will be handled better.

3. Allegedly the Ebola man was symptom free when he traveled to Texas to see his girlfriend. The real question is why the hospital let him leave? Did they even ask where he was from?

Stupid all indeed.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'll spell it out for you. If you agree with anything "I" say, you must be a conspiracy theorist.


I'm going to take that as a joke.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> 1.No. He knew of the fighter plane taking the Pa. plane down shortly after it happened.


Still no evidence or explanation of how he knew this.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

tamarque said:


> Here is a core disagreement between us: these people were not incompetent. They did exactly what was intended. It is only the propaganda of incompetence which makes for good public drama and self-righteousness. Bush was right when he said 'mission accomplished.' It just wasn't a mission that most people wanted or accepted, but the neo-cons did.
> 
> The current WH breach? Have to question the whole story and will wait to see what the solutions will be. That will be more informative to me than all the mainstream news drama. The resignation of the head of security is all part of the drama. Political appointees become pawns in the drama so this woman needed to go. However, she will not lose out. She will turn up with some very lucrative job and high paid speaking engagements, and perhaps a multimillion dollar book deal.
> 
> And what about this guy with a gun in the elevator with Obama? First, he didn't try to shoot Obama. So what was he doing there? Was this simply a test of the system? Was some group testing their access for some future purpose? Was this something of an inside job in the planning? I suspect there have been more threats against O and his family than other presidents given the rabid racism in this country. But this is something that smells of a security plan, not a breach.


Tamala is my Dear Tamala today. I smell the same security plan. And it could have come from the Dems as well as the Reps.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> As they should be. Rattled, but not in a state of panic.


I have no idea if this is true, I need to do more checking. But this article says that there is a man with Ebola in Payson, Arizona. You might want to check it out.
http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/2014/10/02/the-cdc-does-nothing-as-ebola-potentially-spreads-from-dallas-to-portland-to-payson-az-to-nyc/

I've only found this blog, written by his wife. It sounds as if he's under self imposed quarantine as a precautionary measure, after traveling to Liberia. ?
http://gospelmann.wordpress.com/


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Still no evidence or explanation of how he knew this.


All fire and police stations around Manhattan were on high alert and told everything then. The Provost at Purchase College told this to me. It all makes perfect sense. And I am not so sure that the Public would have understood that we took down our own plane. Better to create martyrs.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Renoir lady with hat & cat on her lap.


Her pose is so natural; I love it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Clever enough to get the best of you more than once; and we all know you're the smartest person on KP!!!
> 
> ;-)
> 
> How's your foot?


That's something I've never thought and certainly never said. It's only on D&P that people call me a liar for saying so. But as someone recently said, there's an alternate reality there.

My foot is as a foot would be with a bone spur on the back of the heel (fortunately not on the bottom). I have to wear clogs and sandals and can't dance. Thank you for asking.

I've found another place in Jewish prayer where the singular nature of God is emphasized - it's said at the end of every prayer service. It's obviously a repudiation of the trinity. Are you interested? PM me.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> maybe he investigated the burn marks on the ground.


Ute, you seem to be in a good mood. Or maybe a very bad mood. Whichever it is, you're a lot of fun.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Nothing wrong with questioning, but there are some who believe everything that happens points to their favorite conspiracy theory. Tiresome.


"Tiresome" is the perfect way to characterize it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Well, here's a doozy! This article quotes an official from the Dallas Department of Health and Human Services as saying that family members and others who have been in contact with the Ebola patient have NOT been quarantined. They are relying on these individuals to "self isolate". I have to wonder if we have IDIOTS running this country!!!
> http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/10/01/6165611/officials-say-only-one-ebola-case.html?rh=1


Or just running Texas. But we already knew that.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Here is a core disagreement between us: these people were not incompetent. They did exactly what was intended. It is only the propaganda of incompetence which makes for good public drama and self-righteousness. Bush was right when he said 'mission accomplished.' It just wasn't a mission that most people wanted or accepted, but the neo-cons did.
> 
> The current WH breach? Have to question the whole story and will wait to see what the solutions will be. That will be more informative to me than all the mainstream news drama. The resignation of the head of security is all part of the drama. Political appointees become pawns in the drama so this woman needed to go. However, she will not lose out. She will turn up with some very lucrative job and high paid speaking engagements, and perhaps a multimillion dollar book deal.
> 
> And what about this guy with a gun in the elevator with Obama? First, he didn't try to shoot Obama. So what was he doing there? Was this simply a test of the system? Was some group testing their access for some future purpose? Was this something of an inside job in the planning? I suspect there have been more threats against O and his family than other presidents given the rabid racism in this country. But this is something that smells of a security plan, not a breach.


You raise interesting questions. I was never sure how much that the Bush admin did was due to stupidity/incompetence and how much to Cheney's and Rove's strategy. It's certainly true that some wealthy people did very well in New Orleans after Katrina.

I'm just hoping that this admin is not as evil as the last.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Maybe but you assume there is very little discipline amongst these services. I think they are highly disciplined and if there was a leak, it was intentional. So for what purpose?


I suppose that depends on the culture of the Secret Service. It might be that the people hired to protect the President are really not "on his side." Or it might be that the admin wanted this leaked.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> Nah. This is part of the medical fascism that is occurring in the country. There have been numerous medical events where the public is scared into submission--or attempts at doing this. Remember the anthrax scares with talk of imposed vaccines--untested of course and owned by political interests. Or the bogus flu epidemics with enforced vaccines which make more billions for big pharma despite the dangers of the vaccine and it lack of efficacy. Now we have Ebola with the govt patent applications for the virus and any alternative variations of it AND all treatments! This is again the Big Lie and fear mongering. I have to wonder about the virus to begin with as the US has major bio weaponry labs that often have 'leaks' of micro-organisms. There is a long history of the govt/industry trying to cause epidemics. None have ever materialized and only result in a few deaths and illnesses easily recovered. But they keep trying.


I still have the Tamiflu that we were advised to buy for some unremembered-by-me expected outbreak. Then surprise, surprise, we learned that Donald Rumsfeld owned a piece of the mfr.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Still no evidence or explanation of how he knew this.


Wouldn't it stand to reason that the fire chief of Purchase, NY, has friends in high places?

No, I guess it wouldn't.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Wouldn't it stand to reason that the fire chief of Purchase, NY, has friends in high places?
> 
> No, I guess it wouldn't.


You're right. No.

Population as of the 2000 census was a little over 3,400. I doubt those "in control" would count him among those who had a need to know about such things!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> All fire and police stations around Manhattan were on high alert and told everything then. The Provost at Purchase College told this to me. It all makes perfect sense. And I am not so sure that the Public would have understood that we took down our own plane. Better to create martyrs.


If all the fire and police stations around Manhattan were told this, how is it only one has come forward, considering the intense interest in all the wild conspiracy theories? Or is every police and fire station part of the plot and planning, too?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I have no idea if this is true, I need to do more checking. But this article says that there is a man with Ebola in Payson, Arizona. You might want to check it out.
> http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/2014/10/02/the-cdc-does-nothing-as-ebola-potentially-spreads-from-dallas-to-portland-to-payson-az-to-nyc/
> 
> I've only found this blog, written by his wife. It sounds as if he's under self imposed quarantine as a precautionary measure, after traveling to Liberia. ?
> http://gospelmann.wordpress.com/


Nothing in the article says this minister was anywhere near anyone with ebola. Ebola doesn't just float around on the air - it is only transmitted by those exhibiting symptoms, then by direct contact. I applaud this fellow for providing disinfecting products to those poor people, though I find his willingness to withhold such products until people were forced to listen to his "teaching" to be problematic. Smacks of coercion - I'll give you something to help save your life but first you have to hear about my merciful god (who has inflicted this scourge on the world).

I live in Payson, Arizona and I plan to go about my business without panicking.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> That's something I've never thought and certainly never said. It's only on D&P that people call me a liar for saying so. But as someone recently said, there's an alternate reality there.
> 
> My foot is as a foot would be with a bone spur on the back of the heel (fortunately not on the bottom). I have to wear clogs and sandals and can't dance. Thank you for asking.
> 
> I've found another place in Jewish prayer where the singular nature of God is emphasized - it's said at the end of every prayer service. It's obviously a repudiation of the trinity. Are you interested? PM me.


Not to worry, I'm just being sarcastic!

I also have had a bone spur on the back/bottom of my heel. Wore mostly Clark's clogs and sandals for at least 10-15 years. Strangely it has stopped bothering me the past few years and now I wear all kinds of shoes...but I'm careful to make sure the heel cushion is adequate.

Thanks anyway but I'm not interested in repudiating the trinity. Talk about an alternate reality!!!


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Health officials in Dallas are closely monitoring a second possible Ebola patient who was in close contact with the first.
> http://www.wtsp.com/story/news/2014/10/01/ebola-second-person-monitored/16528391/
> I wonder where they've been lately and how many people they've come in contact with


I love the part of this "Ebola Comes to America" story where the first Ebola patient was turned away from the ER the first time he went there even though one of the screening questions was if he had been to Africa recently. Seems to me that enough people have now been exposed to the Ebola virus that we can say with confidence that Ebola has arrived here. Viruses love to travel, and this one was bound to get here eventually. That love of travel will take it all around the world. If I recall last night's new report, ten people have been exposed to the virus.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree.



DGreen said:


> Nothing wrong with questioning, but there are some who believe everything that happens points to their favorite conspiracy theory. Tiresome.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

In open minded discussions, the guiding rule should be that personal opinions are labeled as such, and facts be carefully evaluated. I'm sure that's what keeps the discussion interesting. I know it does for me.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You've made it absolutely, perfectly clear that you think everything I say is a conspiracy theory. So you can just give it up now! There are many things I THINK about you, but I restrain myself from saying them. Perhaps you could restrain yourself as well! Maybe we could just stick to addressing issues, without flinging around personal assaults. We all know what you think or what you don't think. I propose that we move on.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Given the current state of affairs, I think it is safe to assume the discipline attributed to these services has disintegrated. It's time to question your concept of intentional leaks. IMHO



tamarque said:


> Maybe but you assume there is very little discipline amongst these services. I think they are highly disciplined and if there was a leak, it was intentional. So for what purpose?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Seems a bit blase. Are you not concerned at all? Content to let the government and medical establishment take care of it? Confident this virus will simply run its course? I don't believe in panic, but I do hope to understand and get the facts.



tamarque said:


> Nah. This is part of the medical fascism that is occurring in the country. There have been numerous medical events where the public is scared into submission--or attempts at doing this. Remember the anthrax scares with talk of imposed vaccines--untested of course and owned by political interests. Or the bogus flu epidemics with enforced vaccines which make more billions for big pharma despite the dangers of the vaccine and it lack of efficacy. Now we have Ebola with the govt patent applications for the virus and any alternative variations of it AND all treatments! This is again the Big Lie and fear mongering. I have to wonder about the virus to begin with as the US has major bio weaponry labs that often have 'leaks' of micro-organisms. There is a long history of the govt/industry trying to cause epidemics. None have ever materialized and only result in a few deaths and illnesses easily recovered. But they keep trying.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Shouldn't part of the quarantine issue provide food, medicine, health care worker over-sight to quarantined persons, or am I asking too much?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think you're assuming too much. I don't think that the average person would self isolate for 21 days. I don't think that the average person has 21 days worth of food in their home. They would be going out. I also don't think we should be so cavalier about this disease. If these disease were that hard to catch, there wouldn't be an epidemic. You wouldn't see doctors catching it. When you hear doctors and scientists expressing concern, there's a reason for that concern. It's important to not cause a panic but I think its irresponsible to not quarantine those known to have been exposed. There are so many ways this could be inadvertently spread.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm afraid this 'game' was found to be nothing at all many, many years ago.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I've never made any secret about the fact that I think they're aiming for total global control. You're just a little late to the game!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Me too. But they say I'm too quick with the quip.



Wombatnomore said:


> I like the "Lately every one is stupid" line just on it's own! :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You forgot to add "IMHO." My honest opinion is quite different.

G'day to you.



knitpresentgifts said:


> Great post LTL.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And you are now entering the Twilight Zone.



SQM said:


> Tamala is my Dear Tamala today. I smell the same security plan. And it could have come from the Dems as well as the Reps.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I only started to read the first article which said person was contagious without being symptomatic. This is not true according to everything else I've read. The author may be trying to stir the pot rather than provide fact.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I have no idea if this is true, I need to do more checking. But this article says that there is a man with Ebola in Payson, Arizona. You might want to check it out.
> http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/2014/10/02/the-cdc-does-nothing-as-ebola-potentially-spreads-from-dallas-to-portland-to-payson-az-to-nyc/
> 
> I've only found this blog, written by his wife. It sounds as if he's under self imposed quarantine as a precautionary measure, after traveling to Liberia. ?
> http://gospelmann.wordpress.com/


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to keep any kind of secret these days? I don't believe any of this for one second.



SQM said:


> All fire and police stations around Manhattan were on high alert and told everything then. The Provost at Purchase College told this to me. It all makes perfect sense. And I am not so sure that the Public would have understood that we took down our own plane. Better to create martyrs.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Me too. Relaxed me entirely.



Poor Purl said:


> Her pose is so natural; I love it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Not to worry, I'm just being sarcastic!
> 
> I also have had a bone spur on the back/bottom of my heel. Wore mostly Clark's clogs and sandals for at least 10-15 years. Strangely it has stopped bothering me the past few years and now I wear all kinds of shoes...but I'm careful to make sure the heel cushion is adequate.
> 
> Thanks anyway but I'm not interested in repudiating the trinity. Talk about an alternate reality!!!


You had the spur for 10-15 years. What a nightmare! Aren't they supposed to be reabsorbed at some time? Or is that just wishful thinking?

Did you get shots for the pain, or were OTC pain relievers enough?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Or just running Texas. But we already knew that.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I still have the Tamiflu that we were advised to buy for some unremembered-by-me expected outbreak. Then surprise, surprise, we learned that Donald Rumsfeld owned a piece of the mfr.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: I hadn't heard this one but I'm not surprised. Rummy


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Wouldn't it stand to reason that the fire chief of Purchase, NY, has friends in high places?
> 
> No, I guess it wouldn't.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: I wonder what his/her name is and if anyone reputable has interviewed them.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You had the spur for 10-15 years. What a nightmare! Aren't they supposed to be reabsorbed at some time? Or is that just wishful thinking?
> 
> Did you get shots for the pain, or were OTC pain relievers enough?


I never got a cortisone shot. Stretching exercise, ice and anti-inflammatory OTC did the trick for me. I feel your pain.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

damemary said:


> I only started to read the first article which said person was contagious without being symptomatic. This is not true according to everything else I've read. The author may be trying to stir the pot rather than provide fact.


You might want to take a look at the source again. Another alarmist site with a clear bias against the "govermint."


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> You had the spur for 10-15 years. What a nightmare! Aren't they supposed to be reabsorbed at some time? Or is that just wishful thinking?
> 
> Did you get shots for the pain, or were OTC pain relievers enough?


It was mild and I had no problems as long as I wore Clarks shoes, esp the "Springers" model with a specially designed heel bed. I rarely needed pain relief. I began calcium magnesium supps for other reasons but that's probably why it finally dissolved. I hope yours is short-lived.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> He caught the disease by TOUCHING someone who had it. What are the chances that he didn't touch his children? Or his wife?


In this case the someone he TOUCHED had a full blown case of Ebola and died 2 days later at the hospital. He carried her into the hospital. It was likely he came into contact with her bodily fluids at that time. I'm still more concerned with why the Dallas hospital didn't quarantine he when he first went in. To me, that's far more troubling.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> In open minded discussions, the guiding rule should be that personal opinions are labeled as such, and facts be carefully evaluated. I'm sure that's what keeps the discussion interesting. I know it does for me.


I think if you looked at my posts, I almost always link a source or SAY, "I think", " I don't think" or "IMO".


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Shouldn't part of the quarantine issue provide food, medicine, health care worker over-sight to quarantined persons, or am I asking too much?


The point was, these people were NOT put under quarantine. They were asked to self isolate. IMO, they should have been put under supervised quarantine and should have had their needs met, so they wouldn't have a need to go out. Just telling someone to stay home isn't a realistic solution.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I'm afraid this 'game' was found to be nothing at all many, many years ago.


Don't forget to say, "IMO"! My opinion is different.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I only started to read the first article which said person was contagious without being symptomatic. This is not true according to everything else I've read. The author may be trying to stir the pot rather than provide fact.


I think it was crap. I posted before I checked it out. But I DID quantify it by saying, "I don't know if this is true". Subsequently, I searched and couldn't find anything to back it up.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> In this case the someone he TOUCHED had a full blown case of Ebola and died 2 days later at the hospital. He carried her into the hospital. It was likely he came into contact with her bodily fluids at that time. I'm still more concerned with why the Dallas hospital didn't quarantine he when he first went in. To me, that's far more troubling.


The point I was making is that after HE showed symptoms and was sent home from the hospital, he likely touched his children and even the sweat from his body, could have transmitted the disease to the children. IMO, those who came in contact with him during that period, should have been quarantined.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The point I was making is that after HE showed symptoms and was sent home from the hospital, he likely touched his children and even the sweat from his body, could have transmitted the disease to the children. IMO, those who came in contact with him during that period, should have been quarantined.


It has also been determined that he lied when the airline questioned him about any contact with ebola patients. The New York Times said Duncan, in his mid-40s, helped take by car a pregnant woman suffering from Ebola to a hospital in Liberia, where she was turned away for lack of space. The woman died. Pretty close contact if you ask me. His family has been quarantined and the 100 or so people they think he may have been in contact with are being checked. Yes, I said 100 or more.

Which supports your earlier message about some people. They're selfish and guilty of what I call "felony stupid."

Another tidbit regarding his family: ""There were violations of the request to not leave their premises," Dallas judge Clay Jenkins said of the breach that prompted the Texas Department of State Health Services to order the quarantine. " Congenital felony stupid.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

damemary said:


> .


Oops. should have been ... hire....not higher. I use the microphone input to send messages and sometimes don't catch these errors.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> Oops. should have been ... hire....not higher. I use the microphone input to send messages and sometimes don't catch these errors.


voice recognition and auto correct - two curiously mixed blessings


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> This seems reasonable to me. After all, the students have been only been in contact with a person who's had contact with the Ebola patient...seems unlikely that they could catch it in this indirect way. Ebola is scary, sure, but I think it's important not to overreact. Remember the hysteria in the early days of AIDS? We don't want that happening again.


I was working in a hospital back when AIDS came to the forefront. We attended meetings in the hospital to explain to us all about the disease. I think most of us were like deer in headlights.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> He caught the disease by TOUCHING someone who had it. What are the chances that he didn't touch his children? Or his wife?


now more of the story is coming out. The Ebola man in Dallas lied on his questionnaire before he left Africa.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> He touched her, yes. But as the woman was already sick she was doubtless covered in vomit and sweat. I honestly don't understand what all the panic is about. Ebola patients aren't contagious until they start showing symptoms, and then the virus can only be spread by exposure to their contaminated bodily fluids. To me something like the flu seems a lot worse--all someone has to do is sneeze or cough on you, and *bingo* you've got it too.


For now. What worries me is these crazy diseases have a way of mutating into something else more communicable.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> You're in fine form today!
> 
> :XD:


I was all riled up.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

DGreen said:


> As they should be. Rattled, but not in a state of panic.


I think I'd be really rattled if I had small children.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You've made it absolutely, perfectly clear that you think everything I say is a conspiracy theory. So you can just give it up now! There are many things I THINK about you, but I restrain myself from saying them. Perhaps you could restrain yourself as well! Maybe we could just stick to addressing issues, without flinging around personal assaults. We all know what you think or what you don't think. I propose that we move on.


Knitter--read an article this week that reminded me that the use of the 'conspiracy theory' attack is really an expression of Cognitive Dissonance. It is a way to make a mockery of someone that a person not only disagrees with, but also is a method to dismiss that person as 'less than.' So when people do this, something pretty common here, it is really an insult, a show of disrespect. And it is a statement of the close mindedness of the person who used that tactic and a sign that their core belief system has been shaken and they are defensive.

So I would suggest that before people accuse someone of subscribing to conspiracy theory, they think twice and realize how disrespectful they are and that it does not make their criticism valid no matter how insulting they become. It is actually more a reflection of the ignorance of the person using that tactic to shut you up.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Still no evidence or explanation of how he knew this.


Maybe he knew the pilot who took down the airliner.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Ute, you seem to be in a good mood. Or maybe a very bad mood. Whichever it is, you're a lot of fun.


a friend and I were talking today and we got each other all hepped up.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I still have the Tamiflu that we were advised to buy for some unremembered-by-me expected outbreak. Then surprise, surprise, we learned that Donald Rumsfeld owned a piece of the mfr.


I tend to do a lot of reading on health issues and am involved with holistic healing. Be assured that the numbers speak quite loudly--no epidemic at all; no huge death numbers. The CDC a couple of years back instructed medical facilities to stop testing for flu because the numbers were not there. Instead every upper respiratory condition was to be named the flu. This is a way of cooking the books and is blatant fraud. So all the seniors who developed pneumonia after medical treatment were listed as death by flu. The actually numbers for flu deaths were extraordinarily low. The 18,000 number is the same one that is pulled out of the medical closet annually and fed to the public. But even if it were 18,000 deaths is that even an epidemic? Not hardly. Breast cancer is still killing 40,000 woman annually as far as I know and there is no hysteria about it. Of course not--there is no vaccines to scare people into taking. And the big C words scares women sufficiently they succumb to useless and death defying toxic drugs and surgery. Money is still being made hand over fist.

FYI, this is not theory, but can be considered conspiracy as the means for cure of cancer have been available for almost 100 yrs in the US.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

damemary said:


> Given the current state of affairs, I think it is safe to assume the discipline attributed to these services has disintegrated. It's time to question your concept of intentional leaks. IMHO


I think you trust the system far more than I do.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

damemary said:


> Seems a bit blase. Are you not concerned at all? Content to let the government and medical establishment take care of it? Confident this virus will simply run its course? I don't believe in panic, but I do hope to understand and get the facts.


I don't think you get what I say. I am not blasé. I am critical and angry. And I have no trust in the govt propaganda. Other countries are sending doctors and supplies to Africa. The US is sending 3000 military to their Africom base. Cheney said in office that every mishap, failure or unexpected consequence is an opportunity to do more. Ebola is proving just that opportunity for the US to militarize around a health crisis. Cuba is sending several 100 doctors and supplies; the US sends in the military. Blasé? Heck no. Disgusted, angry, incensed--yes.

Cheap materials like IV fluids, Vit C, disinfectants would go a long way to curb the spread. Nutritious food would help. Seeds and tools for planting small vegetable gardens for building health is a necessity. All cheap supplies to help control disease.

BTW--approx 50% of Ebola cases heal with little intervention other than acute care.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'm afraid this 'game' was found to be nothing at all many, many years ago.


Who told you that? Fox News?


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Changing topics here....Theresa and Joe are found guilty. Their greed did them in. I hope they learn something. Of course their kids will suffer. Theresa didn't want to live in a USED house. Well now she'll have to go live in the BIG house《《 karma 》》.

http://deadline.com/2014/10/real-housewives-of-nj-stars-sentenced-prison-joe-teresa-giudice-844551/


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> Maybe he knew the pilot who took down the airliner.


Squirrel sounds like a lawyer.

Since Purchase College is one of the biggest institutions in Purchase, NY, it makes sense that the emergency teams and the college were in close contact on 9/11.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

tamarque said:


> Knitter--read an article this week that reminded me that the use of the 'conspiracy theory' attack is really an expression of Cognitive Dissonance. It is a way to make a mockery of someone that a person not only disagrees with, but also is a method to dismiss that person as 'less than.' So when people do this, something pretty common here, it is really an insult, a show of disrespect. And it is a statement of the close mindedness of the person who used that tactic and a sign that their core belief system has been shaken and they are defensive.
> 
> So I would suggest that before people accuse someone of subscribing to conspiracy theory, they think twice and realize how disrespectful they are and that it does not make their criticism valid no matter how insulting they become. It is actually more a reflection of the ignorance of the person using that tactic to shut you up.


Certainly no more insulting than CT believers who also adopt a "better than" or "more informed than" attitude and call non-believers sheep.

Illuminati
New World Order
Climate Change is a Hoax
Vaccines cause Autism
Michelle Obama is really a man
Barak Obama is the Antichrist
9-11 planned by US government
Sandy Hook staged
Boston bombing staged

What do those things have in common? Theories that have been debunked repeatedly.

This person is not ignorant, just objecting to people spreading outrageous nonsense by demanding proof. Real, verifiable proof. That's not closed-mindedness or cognitive dissonance because my beliefs are being SHAKEN. No shakin' goin' on. I'll continue to request something - anything - that constitutes proof. So far, crickets.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

DGreen said:


> You might want to take a look at the source again. Another alarmist site with a clear bias against the "govermint."


I haven't read the articles, but take exception to your categorical dismissal of the source as being alarmist and anti-govt. Your comment implies that the govt is trustworthy and any criticism must be off base. If you didn't mean this, check out your communication process.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

SQM said:


> Squirrel sounds like a lawyer.
> 
> Since Purchase College is one of the biggest institutions in Purchase, NY, it makes sense that the emergency teams and the college were in close contact on 9/11.


Hahaha. my friend and I were in a discussion yesterday and I told her I should have been a private investigator.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

"FYI, this is not theory, but can be considered conspiracy as the means for cure of cancer have been available for almost 100 yrs in the US."


What is this cure?

Will I need to send in money for S&H?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

tamarque said:


> I don't think you get what I say. I am not blasé. I am critical and angry. And I have no trust in the govt propaganda. Other countries are sending doctors and supplies to Africa. The US is sending 3000 military to their Africom base. Cheney said in office that every mishap, failure or unexpected consequence is an opportunity to do more. Ebola is proving just that opportunity for the US to militarize around a health crisis. Cuba is sending several 100 doctors and supplies; the US sends in the military. Blasé? Heck no. Disgusted, angry, incensed--yes.
> 
> Cheap materials like IV fluids, Vit C, disinfectants would go a long way to curb the spread. Nutritious food would help. Seeds and tools for planting small vegetable gardens for building health is a necessity. All cheap supplies to help control disease.
> 
> BTW--approx 50% of Ebola cases heal with little intervention other than acute care.


Yes - and the other 50% die. Your point?

 Assigning 3,000 U.S. forces to Monrovia, Liberia, where they will provide command and control support in the region for U.S. military activities and facilitate coordination with U.S. government and international relief efforts. A U.S. Army general will lead the effort.

 Help build 17 new health care facilities in the region with 100 beds each.

 Deploy 65 officers from the U.S. Public Health Service Commissioned Corps to manage and staff a previously announced Department of Defense hospital to care for health care workers who become ill.

 Establish a site in the region to train up to 500 health care providers per week to help them safely provide medical care to Ebola patients.

 Airlift 50,000 home health care kits to Liberia that can be used by people in remote communities. The U.S. will also train local populations on how to handle patients exposed to Ebola.

One of the reasons this disease has spread is that coordination of efforts is practically non-existent. I'm not thrilled with a military response, but I wonder who else has the mobility and equipment to respond. (I don't say respond quickly, because the response is long overdue.)


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

tamarque said:


> I haven't read the articles, but take exception to your categorical dismissal of the source as being alarmist and anti-govt. Your comment implies that the govt is trustworthy and any criticism must be off base. If you didn't mean this, check out your communication process.


You might want to go to the site and look for yourself.

My comment implies nothing of the sort. You are using a logical fallacy that won't stand up to scrutiny, so perhaps you should check out your skills at stepping through a logical process.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Certainly no more insulting than CT believers who also adopt a "better than" or "more informed than" attitude and call non-believers sheep.
> 
> Illuminati
> New World Order
> ...


That is quite a list you have there--everything but the kitchen sink--but maybe that is hidden beta the lines.

Some of your list is not debunked except by people who don't want to know the truth. The Illuminati and the Bildeberg groups exist and do world planning. The Neo-cons developed their concept of the New World Order based on American hegemony. Many studies, books and speakers on this demonstrate the reality of this concept in practice. The Project for a New American Century was a defining document that prepared for a coup and only needed a major event on the level of Pearl Harbor to scare the public into submission as well as allow the neo-con administration to declare Marshall Law on the country. And they did threaten the Congress to do this if they didn't immediately pass the Patriot Act--without reading it. This document was written well before 911: it was way too long and detailed to have been thrown together in less than 6 weeks.

Vaccines and autism? The only people denying the connection are the big pharm corporations and the govt agencies they control (CDC, FDA). Merck was just given one of the biggest fines last year for their fraudulent statements about the MMR conferring lifetime immunity and the CDC just had a major whistleblowing from a Dr. Thompson who stated clearly that he and his cohorts lied about the MMR vaccine not causing autism. The date was cooked and manipulated. Independent researchers have been saying vaccines are a cause of autism. The vaccine courts, have award millions in damages to parents with children with autism as a result of vaccines and this despite the incredible difficulty to get your case into the court to begin with.

Almost all on your list are events with major pieces of information that contradict the govt spin but you think you know they have all been relegated to the conspiracy bin. You are a true believer and your simple dismissal of research my many people with far more expertise than you can only be understood as your refusal to deal with the betrayal of your ideas of this country; i.e., cognitive dissonance.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And I came to the same conclusion in a few minutes and I did not post it before checking its validity.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think it was crap. I posted before I checked it out. But I DID quantify it by saying, "I don't know if this is true". Subsequently, I searched and couldn't find anything to back it up.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Yes - and the other 50% die. Your point?
> 
>  Assigning 3,000 U.S. forces to Monrovia, Liberia, where they will provide command and control support in the region for U.S. military activities and facilitate coordination with U.S. government and international relief efforts. A U.S. Army general will lead the effort.
> 
> ...


Right. Like in Haiti. The military landed, closed the main airport and sat on plastic bottles of water which the people needed. You are not reading real information of real experiences. I know of homeopaths that went to Haiti and got to the people and began treating. I know of one US doctor who funded his own surgery and spent several weeks there working. I know Cuba went in with 100's of doctors and medical equipment and set up over night with surgeries and other care.

The same is going on in Africa now. Anybody can go in and set up real services more quickly than the US. And why? Because they have the will to serve. The US has the will only to control. And that control is always deadly


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> I'd like to know why the SOB was even allowed in this country. and why did he all of a sudden decide to travel to the US after he had touched and handled a sickly deathly ill patient with ebola. I think he knew he was getting sick and all of a sudden decided to travel here so he could check into a hospital. but before that he threw up all over the sidewalk.


Prior to boarding the plane, the airlines check everyone for fever. He did not present one at that time so he was not contagious. The virus hit him a few days later and he was treated at the hospital but they didn't run any tests. He went a second time and they found he had ebola. So far, no panic here in Dallas. Just a new awareness.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

1. Your logic states that because I think the government is trustworthy in one instance that I must believe the government is trustworthy in ALL instances. This is a failure of logic. Besides being a completely unfounded assumption.

2. The site in question is clearly anti-Obama, a fact easily observed by reading their articles. I am in the habit of considering the source and probable motivation before I "buy" anything. That includes "miracle" health statements, opinions put forth without supporting evidence, outrageous claims on YouTube and Facebook (and KP).... then I verify what I can.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Or just running Texas. But we already knew that.


They are in quarantine now. And yes, we do have a few idiots running Texas.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

thus proving that all the extremists are not on the same side.



tamarque said:


> That is quite a list you have there--everything but the kitchen sink--but maybe that is hidden beta the lines.
> 
> Some of your list is not debunked except by people who don't want to know the truth. The Illuminati and the Bildeberg groups exist and do world planning. The Neo-cons developed their concept of the New World Order based on American hegemony. Many studies, books and speakers on this demonstrate the reality of this concept in practice. The Project for a New American Century was a defining document that prepared for a coup and only needed a major event on the level of Pearl Harbor to scare the public into submission as well as allow the neo-con administration to declare Marshall Law on the country. And they did threaten the Congress to do this if they didn't immediately pass the Patriot Act--without reading it. This document was written well before 911: it was way too long and detailed to have been thrown together in less than 6 weeks.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You make sense to me DGreen. Ps. I don't even believe in osteopathy much less homeopathy.



DGreen said:


> 1. Your logic states that because I think the government is trustworthy in one instance that I must believe the government is trustworthy in ALL instances. This is a failure of logic. Besides being a completely unfounded assumption.
> 
> 2. The site in question is clearly anti-Obama, a fact easily observed by reading their articles. I am in the habit of considering the source and probable motivation before I "buy" anything. That includes "miracle" health statements, opinions put forth without supporting evidence, outrageous claims on YouTube and Facebook (and KP).... then I verify what I can.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

GWPlver said:
 

> Prior to boarding the plane, the airlines check everyone for fever. He did not present one at that time so he was not contagious. The virus hit him a few days later and he was treated at the hospital but they didn't run any tests. He went a second time and they found he had ebola. So far, no panic here in Dallas. Just a new awareness.


I knew I knew someone on KP from Dallas. Panda, please check in and keep us posted on Ebola. Do you live near the hospital?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

tamarque said:


> That is quite a list you have there--everything but the kitchen sink--but maybe that is hidden beta the lines.
> 
> Some of your list is not debunked except by people who don't want to know the truth. The Illuminati and the Bildeberg groups exist and do world planning. The Neo-cons developed their concept of the New World Order based on American hegemony. Many studies, books and speakers on this demonstrate the reality of this concept in practice. The Project for a New American Century was a defining document that prepared for a coup and only needed a major event on the level of Pearl Harbor to scare the public into submission as well as allow the neo-con administration to declare Marshall Law on the country. And they did threaten the Congress to do this if they didn't immediately pass the Patriot Act--without reading it. This document was written well before 911: it was way too long and detailed to have been thrown together in less than 6 weeks.
> 
> ...


Oh - I forgot to add that the US caused the earthquake in Haiti to take over the country's natural resources.

I see where you stand and you see where I stand. There is probably no middle ground on this.

But kindly stop telling me what my ideas are and how I feel. It's not cognitive dissonance. It's deductive reasoning and critical thinking.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

damemary said:


> You make sense to me DGreen. Ps. I don't even believe in osteopathy much less homeopathy.


I worked for quite a while for the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine. Homeopathy? Utter bunk.

Alternative medicine has some great ideas and wonderful advice to stay healthy. Proper nutrition. Adequate exercise. Acupuncture (more to it than meets the eye.) I also observed that when a senior faculty member, himself a naturopathic doctor, developed bladder cancer, he went to an allopath (mainstream medicine) and had surgery - post haste.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

damemary said:


> You make sense to me DGreen. Ps. I don't even believe in osteopathy much less homeopathy.


My BS Detector is in high gear today - spinning like a top, actually.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

SQM said:


> "FYI, this is not theory, but can be considered conspiracy as the means for cure of cancer have been available for almost 100 yrs in the US."
> 
> What is this cure?
> 
> Will I need to send in money for S&H?


There are many protocols that will cure cancer without the harmful and killing effects of the mainstream toxins. Anything from Burzynski's work which actually is pretty allopathic but effective to homeopathy. Royal Rife had developed energy frequencies and was able to stop cancer within practically minutes--they destroyed most of his equipment and files but not all. Low level laser uses the Rife frequencies for healing. Diet, alone, can cure. The Budwig diet is one that has been used for decades. Others diets are also available but they all have one similar feature: clean food, raw food; i.e., organics food in measured amounts with lots of raw food. The list goes on. The Gerson diet has been around for many decades and there is much information available. Vit D and Vit C are major anti-cancer nutrients. How about that for simplicity. IV Vit C up to 150 g/ dose has cured cancer. But there are documented cases of it being effective as low as 25 g/dose. Vit D deficiency is one of the biggest factors in causing cancer and healing it. Is this enough of a beginning for you.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I worked for quite a while for the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine. Homeopathy? Utter bunk.
> 
> Alternative medicine has some great ideas and wonderful advice to stay healthy. Proper nutrition. Adequate exercise. Acupuncture (more to it than meets the eye.) I also observed that when a senior faculty member, himself a naturopathic doctor, developed bladder cancer, he went to an allopath (mainstream medicine) and had surgery - post haste.


I know you know not what you speak of. There are many people in holistic medicine who are no better practitioners than are in allopathy. And if you think homeopathy is bunk then you don't know anything about it.


----------



## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

damemary said:


> thus proving that all the extremists are not on the same side.


And you are proving what? That sitting in the middle makes a muddle of nothing? Anything that is a wee bit off the middle sends you reeling? Can't handle anything too new or different?
So you can read emotional marketing spin that pushes mainstream thinking and you think you are getting information. Is this what you mean by studying an issue?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

tamarque said:


> There are many protocols that will cure cancer without the harmful and killing effects of the mainstream toxins. Anything from Burzynski's work which actually is pretty allopathic but effective to homeopathy. Royal Rife had developed energy frequencies and was able to stop cancer within practically minutes--they destroyed most of his equipment and files but not all. Low level laser uses the Rife frequencies for healing. Diet, alone, can cure. The Budwig diet is one that has been used for decades. Others diets are also available but they all have one similar feature: clean food, raw food; i.e., organics food in measured amounts with lots of raw food. The list goes on. The Gerson diet has been around for many decades and there is much information available. Vit D and Vit C are major anti-cancer nutrients. How about that for simplicity. IV Vit C up to 150 g/ dose has cured cancer. But there are documented cases of it being effective as low as 25 g/dose. Vit D deficiency is one of the biggest factors in causing cancer and healing it. Is this enough of a beginning for you.


Yes Mam. Are any of these diets Kosher?
Cancer is a huge industry so there is no real motivation to search for a cure. Treatment is the focus. So since I see Medicine as part of Big Business, I can believe that successful alternative treatments will certainly be squelched.

If others are interested, would you describe one of the diets in greater details? Thanks.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> It has also been determined that he lied when the airline questioned him about any contact with ebola patients. The New York Times said Duncan, in his mid-40s, helped take by car a pregnant woman suffering from Ebola to a hospital in Liberia, where she was turned away for lack of space. The woman died. Pretty close contact if you ask me. His family has been quarantined and the 100 or so people they think he may have been in contact with are being checked. Yes, I said 100 or more.
> 
> Which supports your earlier message about some people. They're selfish and guilty of what I call "felony stupid."
> 
> Another tidbit regarding his family: ""There were violations of the request to not leave their premises," Dallas judge Clay Jenkins said of the breach that prompted the Texas Department of State Health Services to order the quarantine. " Congenital felony stupid.


Wow! Thanks for sharing. I've been out of touch with everything today, as I was running my mil around on errands.

I'd heard people speculate that his sole reason for coming to the US, was that he knew he'd been exposed, and knew he'd have a better chance of surviving in the US. I don't know, maybe?

"100 or so people"?!? Are you kidding?!? And they've already violated their isolation? OMG! I expected it but not so quickly.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Wow! Thanks for sharing. I've been out of touch with everything today, as I was running my mil around on errands.
> 
> I'd heard people speculate that his sole reason for coming to the US, was that he knew he'd been exposed, and knew he'd have a better chance of surviving in the US. I don't know, maybe?
> 
> "100 or so people"?!? Are you kidding?!? And they've already violated their isolation? OMG! I expected it but not so quickly.


That speculation would certainly make sense. Where would you rather be treated for that horrible disease? I know what my answer would be, but I truly think I would behave more responsibly and ethically than he did. Fear is a bad thing and makes otherwise good people do bad stuff.

As I said about him and his family, though - congenital felony stupidity.

Fortunately, it appears they have contacted those at risk so they can be assessed and monitored.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> For now. What worries me is these crazy diseases have a way of mutating into something else more communicable.


I agree! It could mutate to become airborne. The Public Health Agency of Canada reported that non human primates became infected from aerosolized ebolavirus, in a laboratory setting.
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/lab-bio/res/psds-ftss/ebola-eng.php

Section II, under Mode of Transmission


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

tamarque said:


> I know you know not what you speak of. There are many people in holistic medicine who are no better practitioners than are in allopathy. And if you think homeopathy is bunk then you don't know anything about it.


Well, I do know something about it and I still think it is bunk. My opinion. If you want to be treated that way, that's your business.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> That speculation would certainly make sense. Where would you rather be treated for that horrible disease? I know what my answer would be, but I truly think I would behave more responsibly and ethically than he did. Fear is a bad thing and makes otherwise good people do bad stuff.
> 
> As I said about him and his family, though - congenital felony stupidity.
> 
> Fortunately, it appears they have contacted those at risk so they can be assessed and monitored.


Incubation is between 2-21 days. I pray that he isn't lying about when his fever started so that he may have infected many more than is thought.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> Knitter--read an article this week that reminded me that the use of the 'conspiracy theory' attack is really an expression of Cognitive Dissonance. It is a way to make a mockery of someone that a person not only disagrees with, but also is a method to dismiss that person as 'less than.' So when people do this, something pretty common here, it is really an insult, a show of disrespect. And it is a statement of the close mindedness of the person who used that tactic and a sign that their core belief system has been shaken and they are defensive.
> 
> So I would suggest that before people accuse someone of subscribing to conspiracy theory, they think twice and realize how disrespectful they are and that it does not make their criticism valid no matter how insulting they become. It is actually more a reflection of the ignorance of the person using that tactic to shut you up.


I agree! Thank you.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

tamarque said:


> I tend to do a lot of reading on health issues and am involved with holistic healing. Be assured that the numbers speak quite loudly--no epidemic at all; no huge death numbers. The CDC a couple of years back instructed medical facilities to stop testing for flu because the numbers were not there. Instead every upper respiratory condition was to be named the flu. This is a way of cooking the books and is blatant fraud. So all the seniors who developed pneumonia after medical treatment were listed as death by flu. The actually numbers for flu deaths were extraordinarily low. The 18,000 number is the same one that is pulled out of the medical closet annually and fed to the public. But even if it were 18,000 deaths is that even an epidemic? Not hardly. Breast cancer is still killing 40,000 woman annually as far as I know and there is no hysteria about it. Of course not--there is no vaccines to scare people into taking. And the big C words scares women sufficiently they succumb to useless and death defying toxic drugs and surgery. Money is still being made hand over fist.
> 
> FYI, this is not theory, but can be considered conspiracy as the means for cure of cancer have been available for almost 100 yrs in the US.


Really? All types of cancer? For 100 years? I'm skeptical.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> I tend to do a lot of reading on health issues and am involved with holistic healing. Be assured that the numbers speak quite loudly--no epidemic at all; no huge death numbers. The CDC a couple of years back instructed medical facilities to stop testing for flu because the numbers were not there. Instead every upper respiratory condition was to be named the flu. This is a way of cooking the books and is blatant fraud. So all the seniors who developed pneumonia after medical treatment were listed as death by flu. The actually numbers for flu deaths were extraordinarily low. The 18,000 number is the same one that is pulled out of the medical closet annually and fed to the public. But even if it were 18,000 deaths is that even an epidemic? Not hardly. Breast cancer is still killing 40,000 woman annually as far as I know and there is no hysteria about it. Of course not--there is no vaccines to scare people into taking. And the big C words scares women sufficiently they succumb to useless and death defying toxic drugs and surgery. Money is still being made hand over fist.
> 
> FYI, this is not theory, but can be considered conspiracy as the means for cure of cancer have been available for almost 100 yrs in the US.


I am very concerned that they're hurrying to put out an Ebola vaccine. There will be virtually no testing of this vaccine but they'll convince everyone that they need to take it. They may even make it mandatory. And of course, as always the drug companies will be immune from the damage they do. When there was that big swine flu pandemic (not), people lined up for the untested vaccine. And many paid the price with death or lifetime debilitation.
http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v08n10.shtml


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> I don't think you get what I say. I am not blasé. I am critical and angry. And I have no trust in the govt propaganda. Other countries are sending doctors and supplies to Africa. The US is sending 3000 military to their Africom base. Cheney said in office that every mishap, failure or unexpected consequence is an opportunity to do more. Ebola is proving just that opportunity for the US to militarize around a health crisis. Cuba is sending several 100 doctors and supplies; the US sends in the military. Blasé? Heck no. Disgusted, angry, incensed--yes.
> 
> Cheap materials like IV fluids, Vit C, disinfectants would go a long way to curb the spread. Nutritious food would help. Seeds and tools for planting small vegetable gardens for building health is a necessity. All cheap supplies to help control disease.
> 
> BTW--approx 50% of Ebola cases heal with little intervention other than acute care.


I agree with most of this. I do not trust the government to tell the truth. I believe that our government is complicit. And I can think of no legitimate reason to send in troops! Your comment about IV fluids brings to mind that there's been a chronic shortage of IV saline solution. What's that about? I've a friend that works at a major hospital and he says they've had to delay surgeries due to not having IV saline solution.

I've heard different figures on how many people survive Ebola. The numbers I've heard have been consistently higher than you quote. CBS says 60%-96% of the people who contract Ebola, will die. But then it IS CBS.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/surviving-ebola-for-those-who-live-through-it-what-lies-ahead/


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I vote for deductive reasoning and critical thinking. Perhaps agree to disagree is best.



DGreen said:


> Oh - I forgot to add that the US caused the earthquake in Haiti to take over the country's natural resources.
> 
> I see where you stand and you see where I stand. There is probably no middle ground on this.
> 
> But kindly stop telling me what my ideas are and how I feel. It's not cognitive dissonance. It's deductive reasoning and critical thinking.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Makes sense to me.



DGreen said:


> I worked for quite a while for the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine. Homeopathy? Utter bunk.
> 
> Alternative medicine has some great ideas and wonderful advice to stay healthy. Proper nutrition. Adequate exercise. Acupuncture (more to it than meets the eye.) I also observed that when a senior faculty member, himself a naturopathic doctor, developed bladder cancer, he went to an allopath (mainstream medicine) and had surgery - post haste.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

tamarque said:


> That is quite a list you have there--everything but the kitchen sink--but maybe that is hidden beta the lines.
> 
> Some of your list is not debunked except by people who don't want to know the truth. The Illuminati and the Bildeberg groups exist and do world planning. The Neo-cons developed their concept of the New World Order based on American hegemony. Many studies, books and speakers on this demonstrate the reality of this concept in practice. The Project for a New American Century was a defining document that prepared for a coup and only needed a major event on the level of Pearl Harbor to scare the public into submission as well as allow the neo-con administration to declare Marshall Law on the country. And they did threaten the Congress to do this if they didn't immediately pass the Patriot Act--without reading it. This document was written well before 911: it was way too long and detailed to have been thrown together in less than 6 weeks.
> 
> ...


Many will not believe until the controlled media comes out and admits it. But that will never happen. IMO, people are naive if they think the government is telling them the truth about everything, or for that matter, anything. The masses are controlled by propaganda.

State propaganda, when supported by the educated classes and when no deviation is permitted from it, can have a big effect. It was a lesson learned by Hitler and many others, and it has been pursued to this day. 
― Noam Chomsky, Media Control: The Spectacular Achievements of Propaganda

It is always a much easier task to educate uneducated people than to re-educate the mis-educated. 
― Herbert M. Shelton, Getting Well


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> And I came to the same conclusion in a few minutes and I did not post it before checking its validity.


Sorry. I was in a hurry because I had to leave. I wanted to bring it to Green's attention because she lives in Payson. But I thought I made it clear that I hadn't checked it out.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I worked for quite a while for the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine. Homeopathy? Utter bunk.
> 
> Alternative medicine has some great ideas and wonderful advice to stay healthy. Proper nutrition. Adequate exercise. Acupuncture (more to it than meets the eye.) I also observed that when a senior faculty member, himself a naturopathic doctor, developed bladder cancer, he went to an allopath (mainstream medicine) and had surgery - post haste.


Utter bunk? Naturopathic medicine often includes homeopathy.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Please allow me to add some random thoughts available from the media to the populace. 

Yes the government will 'lie' by omission at least. There is such a thing as private, top-secret information. Some will always rail against it; others will accept that they will not have all the information; the greatest segment of the population's opinion will fall in the middle.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Many will not believe until the controlled media comes out and admits it. But that will never happen. IMO, people are naive if they think the government is telling them the truth about everything, or for that matter, anything. The masses are controlled by propaganda.
> 
> State propaganda, when supported by the educated classes and when no deviation is permitted from it, can have a big effect. It was a lesson learned by Hitler and many others, and it has been pursued to this day.
> ― Noam Chomsky, Media Control: The Spectacular Achievements of Propaganda
> ...


Noam Chomsky is a great linguistics scholar; his father was a great Hebrew scholar. He has said many times that Israel should not exist.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Noam Chomsky is a great linguistics scholar; his father was a great Hebrew scholar. He has said many times that Israel should not exist.


Irrelevant to the quote.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Irrelevant to the quote.


Do you simply pick and choose quotes that seem to support your opinion, no matter whom they're from? I'm sure Hermann Goering said some nice things. Would you quote him, if he said something relevant?

Everything someone says is relevant to everything else s/he says.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

GWPlver said:


> Prior to boarding the plane, the airlines check everyone for fever. He did not present one at that time so he was not contagious. The virus hit him a few days later and he was treated at the hospital but they didn't run any tests. He went a second time and they found he had ebola. So far, no panic here in Dallas. Just a new awareness.


Yes it is a given that he showed no signs of fever. but he knew he handled an Ebola patient and he lied to questionnaire before leaving Africa. I think he came to the US because he figured his chances were good of catching ebola and he wanted to be in the u.s for medical care. Meanwhile his family members are under quarantine. And where else did he go that he's lying about.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Yes it is a given that he showed no signs of fever. but he knew he handled an Ebola patient and he lied to questionnaire before leaving Africa. I think he came to the US because he figured his chances were good of catching ebola and he wanted to be in the u.s for medical care. Meanwhile his family members are under quarantine. And where else did he go that he's lying about.


I think it's too soon to know how much the man knew and how much he lied, but I think taking a hard line with the exposed is probably a mistake. The last thing in the world we need is people lying about their medical histories and trying to hide their symptoms out of fear of prosecution. People who've been exposed need to feel that they can come forward and be open and honest about where they've been and who their contacts are. It's the only reasonable way to deal with this and, frankly, it's a humane and charitable approach. This is a horrible disease, and its victims deserve to be treated with care and compassion. The man was exposed trying to assist a dying woman, after all. If he knowingly risked his life to do so, he's a hero in my book.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> I think it's too soon to know how much the man knew and how much he lied, but I think taking a hard line with the exposed is probably a mistake. The last thing in the world we need is people lying about their medical histories and trying to hide their symptoms out of fear of prosecution. People who've been exposed need to come forward and feel that they can be open and honest about where they've been and who their contacts are. It's the only reasonable way to deal with this and, frankly, it's a humane and charitable approach. This is a horrible disease, and its victims deserve to be treated with care and compassion.


Lots of wisdom there.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I worked for quite a while for the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine. Homeopathy? Utter bunk.
> 
> Alternative medicine has some great ideas and wonderful advice to stay healthy. Proper nutrition. Adequate exercise. Acupuncture (more to it than meets the eye.) I also observed that when a senior faculty member, himself a naturopathic doctor, developed bladder cancer, he went to an allopath (mainstream medicine) and had surgery - post haste.


I find it interesting that 'alternative medicine' disciplines end in 'pathy.' In mainstream medicine 'pathy' has negative connotations.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Yes Mam. Are any of these diets Kosher?
> Cancer is a huge industry so there is no real motivation to search for a cure. Treatment is the focus. So since I see Medicine as part of Big Business, I can believe that successful alternative treatments will certainly be squelched.
> 
> If others are interested, would you describe one of the diets in greater details? Thanks.


I think cancer cures outside of mainstream medical treatment are legitimate in that the particular person's immune system won out over any alternative treatment.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I find it interesting that 'alternative medicine' disciplines end in 'pathy.' In mainstream medicine 'pathy' has negative connotations.


Mainstream medicine is called Allopathy.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I think cancer cures outside of mainstream medical treatment are legitimate in that the particular person's immune system won out over any alternative treatment.


Alternative medicine is all about the immune system. It operates under the premise that the human body was designed to fight off disease. If the body is in the proper balance and the immune system works correctly, you won't get disease. If the body gets out of balance and the immune system is not working properly, you find out what it needs, ie vitamins and minerals (but not exclusively). Diseases are treated without poisoning the body. Prescription drugs are poison designed to kill something in the body ie kill bacteria, kill cancer cells. But when you kill the bad cells, you also kill the good cells.

Allopathic (mainstream) medicine is not about curing disease, but about treating symptoms with drugs that then cause other symptoms. Prescription drugs are the number one cause of death in the US. And yet, we hold on to Allopathy as if our lives depended upon it.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Do you simply pick and choose quotes that seem to support your opinion, no matter whom they're from? I'm sure Hermann Goering said some nice things. Would you quote him, if he said something relevant?
> 
> Everything someone says is relevant to everything else s/he says.


In this case, I was looking for a specific quote but I couldn't find it, so I settled. There was actually a very good quote about propaganda, by Hitler. I didn't pick it. But I probably should have because when you're talking about propaganda, you have to realize that it is the bad guys who use propaganda against the people. So most of the quotes would come from them.

I've quoted all sorts of people to make a point, negative or positive. But never once have I suggested that I agree with the politics of that person. I've even quoted Stalin, but surely you don't think I stand for socialism! If that's what you think, you're mistaken.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I find it interesting that 'alternative medicine' disciplines end in 'pathy.' In mainstream medicine 'pathy' has negative connotations.


Mainstream medicine is also called _allopathy_, but in general you're right. A pathologist is a doctor looking for what's wrong.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Mainstream medicine is called Allopathy.


You beat me to it. That's what I get for waking up late.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I think it's too soon to know how much the man knew and how much he lied, but I think taking a hard line with the exposed is probably a mistake. The last thing in the world we need is people lying about their medical histories and trying to hide their symptoms out of fear of prosecution. People who've been exposed need to feel that they can come forward and be open and honest about where they've been and who their contacts are. It's the only reasonable way to deal with this and, frankly, it's a humane and charitable approach. This is a horrible disease, and its victims deserve to be treated with care and compassion. The man was exposed trying to assist a dying woman, after all. If he knowingly risked his life to do so, he's a hero in my book.


Seriously?!? So approximately 100 people have been exposed, and we should be nice and let them go about their lives for the next 21 days? What if one of them gets sick and vomits in the grocery store? Oh well? I hope you're not in range and, will you clean it up? Or if someone passes out at Walmart, I hope no one comes to their aid. What if one of them were your son's classmate, would you be all for waiting until it's too late? Is it humane and charitable to allow the disease to spread to thousands? If one man exposed 100, how many will these 100 expose? There's no way to predict when the symptoms will show up, anywhere from 2-21 days. Would you want to be working along side one of them when their symptoms show up? This is too dangerous for nice. We need to protect people. These people should be quarantined! Period!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> In this case, I was looking for a specific quote but I couldn't find it, so I settled. There was actually a very good quote about propaganda, by Hitler. I didn't pick it. But I probably should have because when you're talking about propaganda, you have to realize that it is the bad guys who use propaganda against the people. So most of the quotes would come from them.
> 
> I've quoted all sorts of people to make a point, negative or positive. But never once have I suggested that I agree with the politics of that person. I've even quoted Stalin, but surely you don't think I stand for socialism! If that's what you think, you're mistaken.


That's not at all what I think (though I do intend to bring up economics at some point). All I meant was that if someone is honest and has good ideas in a certain area, fine - quote him. But if you're not familiar with the person's ideas, how do you know that anything he says is valid?

Besides, if all you do is cherry-pick quotations to support your point, how convincing is that? You're simply ignoring what doesn't support you, even though it may be right.

I wonder how people managed to discuss and argue about things before the internet. Did they actually have to know something, rather than search lists of quotations?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You beat me to it. That's what I get for waking up late.


That's OK. Pretty soon, you can get way ahead of me. I've got to get busy and clean my house. I'm having the whole family for breakfast on Sunday. I haven't cleaned my blinds in at least a month and they're full of little finger marks. My sliding glass door is full of little fingerprints and little mouth prints. Aw! They're so cute, I almost don't want to clean them off! But I must! I have a reputation to uphold! I'm the queen of clean.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Seriously?!? So approximately 100 people have been exposed, and we should be nice and let them go about their lives for the next 21 days? What if one of them gets sick and vomits in the grocery store? Oh well? I hope you're not in range and, will you clean it up? Or if someone passes out at Walmart, I hope no one comes to their aid. What if one of them were your son's classmate, would you be all for waiting until it's too late? Is it humane and charitable to allow the disease to spread to thousands? If one man exposed 100, how many will these 100 expose? There's no way to predict when the symptoms will show up, anywhere from 2-21 days. Would you want to be working along side one of them when their symptoms show up? This is too dangerous for nice. We need to protect people. These people should be quarantined! Period!


Can you see nothing between what you think and what you believe Susan thinks? I doubt that she advocates doing nothing. In fact her whole point is that if you make it difficult for people to admit to being exposed, they're not going to, and the disease will spread even further.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> That's not at all what I think (though I do intend to bring up economics at some point). All I meant was that if someone is honest and has good ideas in a certain area, fine - quote him. But if you're not familiar with the person's ideas, how do you know that anything he says is valid?
> 
> Besides, if all you do is cherry-pick quotations to support your point, how convincing is that? You're simply ignoring what doesn't support you, even though it may be right.
> 
> I wonder how people managed to discuss and argue about things before the internet. Did they actually have to know something, rather than search lists of quotations?


I wasn't making a statement about Noam Chomsky. I was making a statement about propaganda. As I stated earlier, I could have quoted Hitler, without meaning that I agreed with him. Frankly, I don't agree with propaganda at all! So, by your thinking I shouldn't comment on it?

I certainly agree with your comment about the internet. But then, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation without it. I'd be conversing with people in my own little world, and I wouldn't be learning all sorts of new things.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Can you see nothing between what you think and what you believe Susan thinks? I doubt that she advocates doing nothing. In fact her whole point is that if you make it difficult for people to admit to being exposed, they're not going to, and the disease will spread even further.


The conversation was rooted in the fact that they asked these people to self isolate. They didn't! So, where do you go from there? How can you be nice after they've already violated the agreement? Should we put millions of lives at risk to assure that we're being nice? While I know that any one of us on this thread, would cooperate with authorities and self isolate, there are those who won't. There will always be those who won't.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I wasn't making a statement about Noam Chomsky. I was making a statement about propaganda. As I stated earlier, I could have quoted Hitler, without meaning that I agreed with him. Frankly, I don't agree with propaganda at all! So, by your thinking I shouldn't comment on it?
> 
> I certainly agree with your comment about the internet. But then, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation without it. I'd be conversing with people in my own little world, and I wouldn't be learning all sorts of new things.


Apparently you didn't understand my point. By quoting Chomsky, you *were* making a statement about him: that you agree with him about propaganda. But why should you? What makes you think he's right about propaganda or anything else? The only reason you chose him was that he put into words what you wanted to say. But then if he's wrong, so are you.

I think just searching for quotes to back up what you say is meaningless. Though it may impress some people. It's hardly a way to make your case.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I've been thinking a lot about those who get exposed and are asked to isolate themselves. It's one thing for those of us with vacation, sick days or any with a steady stream of income, and a pantry full of food but another thing entirely for those who live paycheck to paycheck. While in many cases I'm against handouts, in this case we should be helping these people so that the CAN stay home. We should be paying their bills and providing them with necessities. Otherwise, they're in an impossible situation. Even though they KNOW they shouldn't go to work or to the grocery store, they must. And anyone who is able should prepare themselves by having three weeks worth of necessities.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The conversation was rooted in the fact that they asked these people to self isolate. They didn't! So, where do you go from there? How can you be nice after they've already violated the agreement? Should we put millions of lives at risk to assure that we're being nice? While I know that any one of us on this thread, would cooperate with authorities and self isolate, there are those who won't. There will always be those who won't.


Then we should throw them all in some sick people's prison? How will that stop the threat, since there will be a lot more infected people that we don't know about - and will not learn about until they die of the disease - because they don't want to be locked up.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Apparently you didn't understand my point. By quoting Chomsky, you *were* making a statement about him: that you agree with him about propaganda. But why should you? What makes you think he's right about propaganda or anything else? The only reason you chose him was that he put into words what you wanted to say. But then if he's wrong, so are you.
> 
> I think just searching for quotes to back up what you say is meaningless. Though it may impress some people. It's hardly a way to make your case.


No one is all right or all wrong. I can agree with one thing you say without agreeing with everything you say. When I do agree with you, I am not validating everything else you've said. That's nonsense. You've made your point about the quotes and I'll take that under advisement. But the remainder of your comment is not valid.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Then we should throw them all in some sick people's prison? How will that stop the threat, since there will be a lot more infected people that we don't know about - and will not learn about until they die of the disease - because they don't want to be locked up.


See my comment above. However, if we do make it feasible for people to remain in their homes and they refuse, what do you propose we do? Should the well people stay home? I'm not advocating that. I'm just saying if people refuse to self isolate, the disease will run rampant as it has in Africa.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I've been thinking a lot about those who get exposed and are asked to isolate themselves. It's one thing for those of us with vacation, sick days or any with a steady stream of income, and a pantry full of food but another thing entirely for those who live paycheck to paycheck. While in many cases I'm against handouts, in this case we should be helping these people so that the CAN stay home. We should be paying their bills and providing them with necessities. Otherwise, they're in an impossible situation. Even though they KNOW they shouldn't go to work or to the grocery store, they must. And anyone who is able should prepare themselves by having three weeks worth of necessities.


This is how you define a handout? Equating sick people who can't afford to take time out from work with drunks sitting on the sidewalk collecting money for "coffee"?

Anyway, I'm going to let you go. I've been listening to Ella Fitzgerald and Peggy Lee and Louis Armstrong while typing, and I'd rather give my attention to them. Happy housecleaning.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> This is how you define a handout? Equating sick people who can't afford to take time out from work with drunks sitting on the sidewalk collecting money for "coffee"?
> 
> Anyway, I'm going to let you go. I've been listening to Ella Fitzgerald and Peggy Lee and Louis Armstrong while typing, and I'd rather give my attention to them. Happy housecleaning.


I define "handouts" as giving people money they haven't earned. I'm not the one who equated sick people with drunks. You're the one who made that connection!


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

If your involvement in holistic healing means you treat people, then you're a quack. Holistic healing! What complete nonsense! Next you'll be telling us you're also a naturopath.


tamarque said:


> I tend to do a lot of reading on health issues and am involved with holistic healing. Be assured that the numbers speak quite loudly--no epidemic at all; no huge death numbers. The CDC a couple of years back instructed medical facilities to stop testing for flu because the numbers were not there. Instead every upper respiratory condition was to be named the flu. This is a way of cooking the books and is blatant fraud. So all the seniors who developed pneumonia after medical treatment were listed as death by flu. The actually numbers for flu deaths were extraordinarily low. The 18,000 number is the same one that is pulled out of the medical closet annually and fed to the public. But even if it were 18,000 deaths is that even an epidemic? Not hardly. Breast cancer is still killing 40,000 woman annually as far as I know and there is no hysteria about it. Of course not--there is no vaccines to scare people into taking. And the big C words scares women sufficiently they succumb to useless and death defying toxic drugs and surgery. Money is still being made hand over fist.
> 
> FYI, this is not theory, but can be considered conspiracy as the means for cure of cancer have been available for almost 100 yrs in the US.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I've been thinking a lot about those who get exposed and are asked to isolate themselves. It's one thing for those of us with vacation, sick days or any with a steady stream of income, and a pantry full of food but another thing entirely for those who live paycheck to paycheck. While in many cases I'm against handouts, in this case we should be helping these people so that the CAN stay home. We should be paying their bills and providing them with necessities. Otherwise, they're in an impossible situation. Even though they KNOW they shouldn't go to work or to the grocery store, they must. And anyone who is able should prepare themselves by having three weeks worth of necessities.


I believe the family in Texas is being provided for. I can't believe the authorities would effectively lock up a family and let them starve.

But your point is a good one - that we would do well to stock our pantries and have a plan just in case.

And plenty of yarn in the stash to stave off insanity. (No problem for most of us, to be sure).

The job situation is certainly problematic.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I believe the family in Texas is being provided for. I can't believe the authorities would effectively lock up a family and let them starve.
> 
> But your point is a good one - that we would do well to stock our pantries and have a plan just in case.
> 
> ...


And the food is only one point. How many would lose their homes or apartments? How many would have their utilities turned off? There are many in this country, who would never be able to catch up if they missed three weeks of work. Knowing this, they would feel like they HAD to go to work.

PS I've enough yarn that I could stay home for a year and knit happily away.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Seriously?!? So approximately 100 people have been exposed, and we should be nice and let them go about their lives for the next 21 days? What if one of them gets sick and vomits in the grocery store? Oh well? I hope you're not in range and, will you clean it up? Or if someone passes out at Walmart, I hope no one comes to their aid. What if one of them were your son's classmate, would you be all for waiting until it's too late? Is it humane and charitable to allow the disease to spread to thousands? If one man exposed 100, how many will these 100 expose? There's no way to predict when the symptoms will show up, anywhere from, but some pe 2-21 days. Would you want to be working along side one of them when their symptoms show up? This is too dangerous for nice. We need to protect people. These people should be quarantined! Period!


I agree. :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Mainstream medicine is called Allopathy.


Even more interesting.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Alternative medicine is all about the immune system. It operates under the premise that the human body was designed to fight off disease. If the body is in the proper balance and the immune system works correctly, you won't get disease. If the body gets out of balance and the immune system is not working properly, you find out what it needs, ie vitamins and minerals (but not exclusively). Diseases are treated without poisoning the body. Prescription drugs are poison designed to kill something in the body ie kill bacteria, kill cancer cells. But when you kill the bad cells, you also kill the good cells.
> 
> Allopathic (mainstream) medicine is not about curing disease, but about treating symptoms with drugs that then cause other symptoms. Prescription drugs are the number one cause of death in the US. And yet, we hold on to Allopathy as if our lives depended upon it.


In 35 years of nursing, I have never met a patient who, having sought alternative treatment for cancer, do well. There are so many sham artists out there who will do anything to dupe people to make a buck and that they do this by exploiting desperate people is an absolute travesty.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Speaking of Ebola, this article discusses the way in which health officials have responded to the first case in the States. Quite interesting:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/03/us/dallas-ebola-case-thomas-duncan-contacts.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

I believe there is a place for naturopathic medicine AND traditional medicine. Wonderful when they work cooperatively to improve health outcomes. Naturopathic medicine focuses heavily on maintaining health. This is a very good thing. However, some "natural" cures, while they sound appealing, are not effective. At the same time, I am aware of a number of ways naturopaths do remarkable things better than allopaths. One Phoenix cancer hospital keeps naturopaths on staff to work with chemo patients to balance diet and natural remedies to almost completely alleviate the nausea, fatigue and other side effects of chemo. I know another naturopath who has made incredible strides with autistic children, using chelation and diet. His clinical studies hold wonderful promise for so many - and he will publish peer-reviewed findings in a professional, scientific way. Not all holistic medicine follows this discipline, I'm afraid. Anecdotal "evidence" doesn't cut it.

KFN, you say prescription drugs are poison designed to kill bacteria or cancer cells. This is a major oversimplification and I doubt you believe that yourself. When one considers the vast variety of prescription medications available, it is easy to see there are many, many other ways drugs work to treat illness. I agree, though, that we are often over-prescribed and the current trend of selling drugs on TV is quite disturbing. No explanation for that except to increase profits. But that ISN'T the whole picture, thankfully.

Can we try to stay away from looking only at polar opposites here? 

Traditional medicine IS concerned with curing disease. To paint all allopaths as ignorant, money-grubbing and only interested in keeping sick people sick is, well, sick. My cardiologist prescribed three prescriptions after my heart attack, but the concerned naturopaths at my place of employment tried to convince me to stop taking them and let them "try" to treat me in a "natural" way. Like hell. I almost died and I was not up for being a guinea pig. I'm doing very, very well a year and a half later, with an excellent recovery and I'm still taking my meds faithfully with NO side effects. I've worked hard with my diet, weight loss, exercise. I feel better than I had in years and my activity level exceeds that of a lot of people half my age. I've gone with what works and I know my doctors want to help me live long and prosper. Yeah, my life sort of DOES depend on it.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

I would like to see preventative medicine as a separate discipline (most medico's say they practice this but I'm sceptical), be more dominant than it is. It amazes me, that with the world's burgeoning ageing population that this hasn't happened. 

Thing is, it won't generate enough $.s.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> In 35 years of nursing, I have never met a patient who, having sought alternative treatment for cancer, do well. There are so many sham artists out there who will do anything to dupe people to make a buck and that they do this by exploiting desperate people is an absolute travesty.


Yes, there are sham artists in the fields of alternative medicine. But don't forget how many times the pharmaceutical companies lie and change their data as well. More people die from pharmaceutical drugs in this country than from any other cause of death. Drug companies KNOWINGLY put out drugs that are dangerous or ineffective. They calculate that the profits will be much higher than the fines and lawsuits. There are evil and conniving people in all walks of life.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Yes, there are sham artists in the fields of alternative medicine. But don't forget how many times the pharmaceutical companies lie and change their data as well. More people die from pharmaceutical drugs in this country than from any other cause of death. Drug companies KNOWINGLY put out drugs that are dangerous or ineffective. They calculate that the profits will be much higher than the fines and lawsuits. There are evil and conniving people in all walks of life.


The difference is though, that the doctor sits between the pharm companies and the patient. There is no middle man in alternative therapies.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Speaking of Ebola, this article discusses the way in which health officials have responded to the first case in the States. Quite interesting:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/03/us/dallas-ebola-case-thomas-duncan-contacts.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0


Thanks for sharing. I think it WOULD be very difficult to find people willing to participate in the clean up. When you consider that doctors (who know better than anyone the dangers involved) have contracted the disease, (either through human error or unknown factors) its a scary proposition.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I believe there is a place for naturopathic medicine AND traditional medicine. Wonderful when they work cooperatively to improve health outcomes. Naturopathic medicine focuses heavily on maintaining health. This is a very good thing. However, some "natural" cures, while they sound appealing, are not effective. At the same time, I am aware of a number of ways naturopaths do remarkable things better than allopaths. One Phoenix cancer hospital keeps naturopaths on staff to work with chemo patients to balance diet and natural remedies to almost completely alleviate the nausea, fatigue and other side effects of chemo. I know another naturopath who has made incredible strides with autistic children, using chelation and diet. His clinical studies hold wonderful promise for so many - and he will publish peer-reviewed findings in a professional, scientific way. Not all holistic medicine follows this discipline, I'm afraid. Anecdotal "evidence" doesn't cut it.
> 
> KFN, you say prescription drugs are poison designed to kill bacteria or cancer cells. This is a major oversimplification and I doubt you believe that yourself. When one considers the vast variety of prescription medications available, it is easy to see there are many, many other ways drugs work to treat illness. I agree, though, that we are often over-prescribed and the current trend of selling drugs on TV is quite disturbing. No explanation for that except to increase profits. But that ISN'T the whole picture, thankfully.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you've said here. I spoke of the differences between alternative medicine and allopathic medicine. And for the most part, I think they should work hand in hand.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks for sharing. I think it WOULD be very difficult to find people willing to participate in the clean up. When you consider that doctors (who know better than anyone the dangers involved) have contracted the disease, (either through human error or unknown factors) its a scary proposition.


In Australia we have a 'Displan' or Disaster plan authority. They're a branch of emergency services who become active in the event of a disaster.

I would have thought that there is something similar in the States. I would say even 1 case of Ebola is disastrous.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I would like to see preventative medicine as a separate discipline (most medico's say they practice this but I'm sceptical), be more dominant than it is. It amazes me, that with the world's burgeoning ageing population that this hasn't happened.
> 
> Thing is, it won't generate enough $.s.


That's kind of what naturopathic medicine is (simplified). If your body is in balance (in particular, have the right balance of vitamins and minerals) your immune system will work effectively and your body will fight off disease by itself.

Please everybody, don't jump on me. I said, simplified. It can be more complicated, I know. But that's the general idea.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> The difference is though, that the doctor sits between the pharm companies and the patient. There is no middle man in alternative therapies.


Oh, please! Don't deceive yourself! The doctors get their knowledge of the drugs, directly from the pharmaceutical companies. He/she prescribes what he's told to prescribe. And don't forget that doctors are often rewarded for prescribing certain drugs. The big pharma corporations put on lavish parties and vacations disquised as conferences.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> In Australia we have a 'Displan' or Disaster plan authority. They're a branch of emergency services who become active in the event of a disaster.
> 
> I would have thought that there is something similar in the States. I would say even 1 case of Ebola is disastrous.


Oh, we have plenty of disaster planning authorities. They're just not handling it well. I have to wonder why. It seems plain to me, what should be done.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

This is a great example of preventative medicine:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2779773/Has-Australian-scientist-cure-HERPES-Professor-responsible-cervical-cancer-vaccine-successfully-trials-new-treatment.html


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks for sharing. I think it WOULD be very difficult to find people willing to participate in the clean up. When you consider that doctors (who know better than anyone the dangers involved) have contracted the disease, (either through human error or unknown factors) its a scary proposition.


I would think a good place to start would be with those companies that clean up crime scenes. They have to deal with all sorts of bodily fluids. It wouldn't take too much to get them up to speed. The gov't should also pay them accordingly.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh, please! Don't deceive yourself! The doctors get their knowledge of the drugs, directly from the pharmaceutical companies. He/she prescribes what he's told to prescribe. And don't forget that doctors are often rewarded for prescribing certain drugs. The big pharma corporations put on lavish parties and vacations disquised as conferences.


That's a big statement. That may have been the case in the past but within the last 5 years, pharmaceutical companies in Australia have been banned from offering any sort of incentive to any person in the medical or allied health industry. And doctors, in my experience, are very careful with their prescribing.

My point is, that the patient does have a safety net in the doctor as far as prescription drugs are concerned, however, alternative therapists have direct and unhindered access to patients. The regulations for alternative therapies is quite strict here but not strict enough in my opinion. I think there should be an emphasis on enhancing peoples knowledge of how their body's work and disease processes. At least then they can make some sort of informed decision when it comes to their healthcare choices.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> I would think a good place to start would be with those companies that clean up crime scenes. They have to deal with all sorts of bodily fluids. It wouldn't take too much to get them up to speed. The gov't should also pay them accordingly.


Surely, the government would have this covered in disease control?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree with everything you've said here. I spoke of the differences between alternative medicine and allopathic medicine. And for the most part, I think they should work hand in hand.


Thanks, Nebraska.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I think there should be an emphasis on enhancing peoples knowledge of how their body's work and disease processes. At least then they can make some sort of informed decision when it comes to their healthcare choices.


Insurance companies here in the US are striving for exactly what you suggest. No doubt this helps enhance their bottom line, but a good thing regardless of the motivation. Now it is up to people to take responsibility for their own health. Too bad there are so many who are already suffering from chronic illnesses that might have been avoided - but they still deserve good care.

The ACA also mandates a certain amount of preventive care in the form of yearly checkups. If nothing else, perhaps they will detect problems before they become debilitating and chronic. Time will tell.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> See my comment above. However, if we do make it feasible for people to remain in their homes and they refuse, what do you propose we do? Should the well people stay home? I'm not advocating that. I'm just saying if people refuse to self isolate, the disease will run rampant as it has in Africa.


It's called responsibility. If people know they have been exposed to ebola because a person they know has symptoms, the responsible thing for them to do is self isolate. As part of a disaster plan, cities should have places where they can quarantine people if necessary. If it's too "inconvenient" for anyone to self isolate, then the alternative is for the gov't to enforce it, otherwise, and I agree with you, it will run rampant.


----------



## painthoss (Jul 10, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska wrote:
Oh, please! Don't deceive yourself! The doctors get their knowledge of the drugs, directly from the pharmaceutical companies. He/she prescribes what he's told to prescribe. And don't forget that doctors are often rewarded for prescribing certain drugs. The big pharma corporations put on lavish parties and vacations disquised as conferences."

Wombatnomore replied:
"That's a big statement. That may have been the case in the past but within the last 5 years, pharmaceutical companies in Australia have been banned from offering any sort of incentive to any person in the medical or allied health industry. And doctors, in my experience, are very careful with their prescribing. "

As a professional in the field of continuing medical education, I can say that Wombatnomore's perspective and knowledge are a lot more accurate than KFN's. Pharma involvement and financial support of medical education are heavily regulated, overseen, and reported. Doctors do not get all their information and marching orders from drug reps. That is untrue, and I owe it to myself to correct this erroneous assertion. It's not the first time I've doubted the poster's credibility, though I'm willing to believe there's something in there, somewhere.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Surely, the government would have this covered in disease control?


One would think so. The Atlanta hospital that took in the 1st 2 cases of ebola had trouble disposing of the waste. The problem was "worked out". I would also think other cities will have the same difficulty


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I define "handouts" as giving people money they haven't earned. I'm not the one who equated sick people with drunks. You're the one who made that connection!


I think the word "handout" is usually connected with giving something to a beggar. That's where the connection is - regarding help for people who can't possibly help themselves as a handout, something not earned. The word has a negative connotation, but I'm glad you're willing to give handouts to people who otherwise carry the means to infect you.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> The difference is though, that the doctor sits between the pharm companies and the patient. There is no middle man in alternative therapies.


That's an important consideration. Thanks for pointing it out.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> This is a great example of preventative medicine:
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2779773/Has-Australian-scientist-cure-HERPES-Professor-responsible-cervical-cancer-vaccine-successfully-trials-new-treatment.html


A doctor associated with the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine here in Arizona (adjunct faculty) has been working on a similar thing - though not as important as a vaccine for cervical cancer. He is conducting clinical trials with a treatment for oral herpes - the common cold sore - that so far is returning astonishingly good results.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> Changing topics here....Theresa and Joe are found guilty. Their greed did them in. I hope they learn something. Of course their kids will suffer. Theresa didn't want to live in a USED house. Well now she'll have to go live in the BIG house《《 karma 》》.
> 
> http://deadline.com/2014/10/real-housewives-of-nj-stars-sentenced-prison-joe-teresa-giudice-844551/


I have a friend that watches all of the "real housewives" shows. She said that if Theresa and Joe hadn't been on reality TV, they probably would have been in the clear. It wasn't until the subject came up in one episode that got the matter noticed. Were they bragging? Possibly. Someone, somewhere had a grudge against them.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> This is a great example of preventative medicine:
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2779773/Has-Australian-scientist-cure-HERPES-Professor-responsible-cervical-cancer-vaccine-successfully-trials-new-treatment.html


Really?!? Do you know how many girls have died from this vaccine?!? And how many more are permanently disabled? Do some research? This is a horrible vaccine!!!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> I would think a good place to start would be with those companies that clean up crime scenes. They have to deal with all sorts of bodily fluids. It wouldn't take too much to get them up to speed. The gov't should also pay them accordingly.


The article stated that they couldn't get those companies to come and clean it up. Would you? If you worked for one of those companies?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Really?!? Do you know how many girls have died from this vaccine?!? And how many more are permanently disabled? Do some research? This is a horrible vaccine!!!


KFN, settle. I think you need to do some research because your claim is outrageous.

FYI:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/HPV/jama.html


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Insurance companies here in the US are striving for exactly what you suggest. No doubt this helps enhance their bottom line, but a good thing regardless of the motivation. Now it is up to people to take responsibility for their own health. Too bad there are so many who are already suffering from chronic illnesses that might have been avoided - but they still deserve good care.
> 
> The ACA also mandates a certain amount of preventive care in the form of yearly checkups. If nothing else, perhaps they will detect problems before they become debilitating and chronic. Time will tell.


I think it would be enormously helpful if anatomy/physiology and pathophysiology of the human body be mandatory subjects in school to the point where students can demonstrate applied understanding. Biology is a fascinating discipline to study however, it's not enough and it's an elective anyway.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> A doctor associated with the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine here in Arizona (adjunct faculty) has been working on a similar thing - though not as important as a vaccine for cervical cancer. He is conducting clinical trials with a treatment for oral herpes - the common cold sore - that so far is returning astonishingly good results.


It's a fascinating study. I remember the days when it was thought that stomach ulcers were caused by mechanical erosion and then, through research it was discovered that it was a bug called helicobactor pylori. A massive breakthrough.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> That's a big statement. That may have been the case in the past but within the last 5 years, pharmaceutical companies in Australia have been banned from offering any sort of incentive to any person in the medical or allied health industry. And doctors, in my experience, are very careful with their prescribing.
> 
> My point is, that the patient does have a safety net in the doctor as far as prescription drugs are concerned, however, alternative therapists have direct and unhindered access to patients. The regulations for alternative therapies is quite strict here but not strict enough in my opinion. I think there should be an emphasis on enhancing peoples knowledge of how their body's work and disease processes. At least then they can make some sort of informed decision when it comes to their healthcare choices.


The pharmaceutical companies here in the US are still at it. Not only are doctors rewarded by big pharma for prescribing drugs, but they are also rewarded with big cash bonuses by the HMOs for immunizing their patients. Here in the US we have masses of children being put on psychotropic drugs, particularly children within the foster care system. Doctors are well rewarded for drugging our children!

Here are two articles, one that addresses rewards from big pharma, the other addressing rewards by HMOs. The first comes from a whistle blower who used to work as a drug salesman, the second from a doctor himself.
http://www.denverpost.com/investigations/ci_25561024/drug-firms-have-used-dangerous-tactics-drive-sales
http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/health-concerns/vaccines/do-doctors-have-financial-incentive-get-their-patients-fully-vaccinated


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> It's called responsibility. If people know they have been exposed to ebola because a person they know has symptoms, the responsible thing for them to do is self isolate. As part of a disaster plan, cities should have places where they can quarantine people if necessary. If it's too "inconvenient" for anyone to self isolate, then the alternative is for the gov't to enforce it, otherwise, and I agree with you, it will run rampant.


I agree with you except that there are many many irresponsible people in this country. Responsibility has not been taught and irresponsibility is rewarded. So the alternative is as you suggested, a place where they can set up quarantine.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Really?!? Do you know how many girls have died from this vaccine?!? And how many more are permanently disabled? Do some research? This is a horrible vaccine!!!


The vaccine this doctor is still trying to develop? Probably none, would be my guess, since it doesn't yet exist.

As for the one that does exist, probably none, also. At least, none of the deaths attributed to the vaccine have actually been linked to its use. http://www.snopes.com/medical/drugs/gardasil.asp


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

painthoss said:


> Knitter from Nebraska wrote:
> Oh, please! Don't deceive yourself! The doctors get their knowledge of the drugs, directly from the pharmaceutical companies. He/she prescribes what he's told to prescribe. And don't forget that doctors are often rewarded for prescribing certain drugs. The big pharma corporations put on lavish parties and vacations disquised as conferences."
> 
> Wombatnomore replied:
> ...


Drug companies hold a lot of influence with medical education establishments. They provide a lot of funding to those schools, in the form of donations and grants. You may think its not a problem due to regulations that are in effect, but I see it as a conflict of interest.

When it comes to drugs, doctors DO get their information from drug company sales reps. They don't go back to school every year to learn about all of the new drugs. Its the sales rep who tells them what to prescribe.

I don't care if you doubt my credibility, whatever you mean by that. Its a fact that doctors are influenced and rewarded to prescribe prescription drugs.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I think the word "handout" is usually connected with giving something to a beggar. That's where the connection is - regarding help for people who can't possibly help themselves as a handout, something not earned. The word has a negative connotation, but I'm glad you're willing to give handouts to people who otherwise carry the means to infect you.


That would be your opinion. A handout is still a handout however you see it. If someone gives you something you didn't earn, its either a gift or a handout.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> KFN, settle. I think you need to do some research because your claim is outrageous.
> 
> FYI:
> 
> http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/HPV/jama.html


This was published by the government. Don't expect KFN to believe it.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> KFN, settle. I think you need to do some research because your claim is outrageous.
> 
> FYI:
> 
> http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/HPV/jama.html


Read about a 28 year old woman from Australia and many, many more!
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/01/24/hpv-vaccine-victim-sues-merck.aspx


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> That would be your opinion. A handout is still a handout however you see it. If someone gives you something you didn't earn, its either a gift or a handout.


Never mind.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

painthoss said:


> Knitter from Nebraska wrote:
> Oh, please! Don't deceive yourself! The doctors get their knowledge of the drugs, directly from the pharmaceutical companies. He/she prescribes what he's told to prescribe. And don't forget that doctors are often rewarded for prescribing certain drugs. The big pharma corporations put on lavish parties and vacations disquised as conferences."
> 
> Wombatnomore replied:
> ...


 :thumbup: I agree with you Painthoss. I was shocked and angry how KFN discredited those doctors who excel in their fields, will do anything for their patients, are the best in their speciality and deserve our respect for who they are and what they do and know. Her words upset me, until I remembered they are only her opinions, and like you, after reading your post, realized those statements are not truthful nor accurate. Thanks for speaking.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Read about a 28 year old woman from Australia and many, many more!
> http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/01/24/hpv-vaccine-victim-sues-merck.aspx


And while Wombat is on Dr. Mercola's website, she can shop for some of his products; he'll "match any price on Mercola brand products."

Honestly!


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The article stated that they couldn't get those companies to come and clean it up. Would you? If you worked for one of those companies?


If properly "attired" then yes. To answer the next question, yes I would expect to be additionally compensated as well.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> The vaccine this doctor is still trying to develop? Probably none, would be my guess, since it doesn't yet exist.
> 
> As for the one that does exist, probably none, also. At least, none of the deaths attributed to the vaccine have actually been linked to its use. http://www.snopes.com/medical/drugs/gardasil.asp


Snopes has no more authority than my next door neighbor. They research and pick and choose what they report, just like everybody else.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Drug companies hold a lot of influence with medical education establishments. They provide a lot of funding to those schools, in the form of donations and grants. You may think its not a problem due to regulations that are in effect, but I see it as a conflict of interest.
> 
> When it comes to drugs, doctors DO get their information from drug company sales reps. They don't go back to school every year to learn about all of the new drugs. Its the sales rep who tells them what to prescribe.
> 
> I don't care if you doubt my credibility, whatever you mean by that. Its a fact that doctors are influenced and rewarded to prescribe prescription drugs.


Doctors and nurses have to undertake a quantified number of hours of education per year to maintain their professional registration. You're becoming reckless in your statements.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> :thumbup: I agree with you Painthoss. I was shocked and angry how KFN discredited those doctors who excel in their fields, will do anything for their patients, are the best in their speciality and deserve our respect for who they are and what they do and know. Her words upset me, until I remembered they are only her opinions, and like you, after reading your post, realized those statements are not truthful nor accurate. Thanks for speaking.


I didn't discredit "those" doctors.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Read about a 28 year old woman from Australia and many, many more!
> http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/01/24/hpv-vaccine-victim-sues-merck.aspx


This is tripe.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> And while Wombat is on Dr. Mercola's website, she can shop for some of his products; he'll "match any price on Mercola brand products."
> 
> Honestly!


I read very little of that piece before I knew it was rubbish. I worked as a practice nurse in a medical clinic which specialised in scheduled and travel vaccinations. I left 2 years ago. We had to be very careful to screen people coming into the clinic due to the vaccine nay sayers who would surreptitiously hand patients their propaganda leaflets and leave them in waiting rooms.

I can't count the number of times I had worried mothers knocking at my office door or phoning me because they had been exposed to that propaganda. Nearly as bad as right to lifers.


----------



## painthoss (Jul 10, 2012)

Medical education establishments? Do you mean medical schools? In any case, the possibility for conflict of interest is recognized, documented, and managed up front, or the money is not accepted. This is a minimum requirement for provided accredited education, as opposed to looking something up on a website and creating an amalgamated theory of whatever.

And let me make sure I understand your second point. You say that doctors must get information from drug reps because the only other option is to go back to school every couple years? That, my poor ign'ant friend, is where Continuing Medical Education comes in. Evidence-based, validated content, screened, sifted and assessed for commercial bias before, during and after, provided by vetted experts to meet documented practice gaps identified by a needs assessment and targeted to a specific target audience. Adult educational principals are used. Outcomes are measured and evaluated. Doctors learn stuff. So do nurses, NPs, PAs, and other providers, as team based learning is a powerful thing.

Give me a minute, sometimes I bring tears to my own eyes....

Anyway, there you have it. Is it a perfect system, or world? No. But at least the sky is blue in it.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Drug companies hold a lot of influence with medical education establishments. They provide a lot of funding to those schools, in the form of donations and grants. You may think its not a problem due to regulations that are in effect, but I see it as a conflict of interest.
> 
> When it comes to drugs, doctors DO get their information from drug company sales reps. They don't go back to school every year to learn about all of the new drugs. Its the sales rep who tells them what to prescribe.
> 
> I don't care if you doubt my credibility, whatever you mean by that. Its a fact that doctors are influenced and rewarded to prescribe prescription drugs.


----------



## painthoss (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks for your support. We recognize that there are doctors who betray trust and that would do anything for money. This is true everywhere, in every field.



knitpresentgifts said:


> :thumbup: I agree with you Painthoss. I was shocked and angry how KFN discredited those doctors who excel in their fields, will do anything for their patients, are the best in their speciality and deserve our respect for who they are and what they do and know. Her words upset me, until I remembered they are only her opinions, and like you, after reading your post, realized those statements are not truthful nor accurate. Thanks for speaking.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

2nd British aid worker said to have been beheaded by IS:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2780017/BREAKING-NEWS-British-ISIS-hostage-Alan-Henning-beheaded-new-video-released-terror-group.html


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Doctors and nurses have to undertake a quantified number of hours of education per year to maintain their professional registration. You're becoming reckless in your statements.


I never suggested that doctors aren't required to have additional education. Don't put words in my mouth. I SAID that doctors learn about new drugs from the drug companies. While not all doctors accept rewards from drug companies, many do. They're trying to move doctors away from doing that but educational lectures and training on drugs is usually funded by the drug companies. Here are a few articles. Read them or don't. I don't care!
http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/fact-sheets/2013/11/11/persuading-the-prescribers-pharmaceutical-industry-marketing-and-its-influence-on-physicians-and-patients
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/543641_2
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22944/


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I never suggested that doctors aren't required to have additional education. Don't put words in my mouth. I SAID that doctors learn about new drugs from the drug companies. While not all doctors accept rewards from drug companies, many do. They're trying to move doctors away from doing that but educational lectures and training on drugs is usually funded by the drug companies. Here are a few articles. Read them or don't. I don't care!
> http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/fact-sheets/2013/11/11/persuading-the-prescribers-pharmaceutical-industry-marketing-and-its-influence-on-physicians-and-patients
> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/543641_2
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22944/


I agree with you in part, Nebraska. Over the years I've dealt with countless doctors regarding various family ailments, and each seems to have his or her personal list of preferred prescription drugs. It seems pretty clear that they prescribe the same brand of drugs over and over again, but my gut feeling is that it has more to do with the promotional efforts of the pharmaceutical companies than flat-out bribery. I believe doctors are as susceptible as any of us to the power of advertising, and no doubt they're bombarded with circulars and in-office visits from salesmen touting this or that wonder drug.


----------



## lilredhen72 (Jun 2, 2014)

GOD sends HIS Sun and Rain on the Just as well as the Unjust! Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. It's not for us to doubt God's will or judge his intentions. Just to ask for mercy, understanding, and peace of mind. I understand your point, and life's situations can often be discouraging, confusing, and disappointing. Opinions vary. This is mine. Thank you for sharing.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

lilredhen72 said:


> GOD sends HIS Sun and Rain on the Just as well as the Unjust! Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. It's not for us to doubt God's will or judge his intentions. Just to ask for mercy, understanding, and peace of mind. I understand your point, and life's situations can often be discouraging, confusing, and disappointing. Opinions vary. This is mine. Thank you for sharing.


What are you talking about?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I apologize in advance for my statements and promise to go back to read everything
BUT
I simply don't believe there is a cure for cancer
AND
I am not a fan of Dr. Joseph Mercola and Dr. Mark Hyman. Testimonials and anecdotes are not scientific evidence. I've had this conversation many times in my long life.
Amen


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Nip it in the bud . Nip it. -- Barney Fife

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/12/health/ebola-airborne/index.html?hpt=us_mid

Yup. It mutates.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Seriously?!? So approximately 100 people have been exposed, and we should be nice and let them go about their lives for the next 21 days? What if one of them gets sick and vomits in the grocery store? Oh well? I hope you're not in range and, will you clean it up? Or if someone passes out at Walmart, I hope no one comes to their aid. What if one of them were your son's classmate, would you be all for waiting until it's too late? Is it humane and charitable to allow the disease to spread to thousands? If one man exposed 100, how many will these 100 expose? There's no way to predict when the symptoms will show up, anywhere from 2-21 days. Would you want to be working along side one of them when their symptoms show up? This is too dangerous for nice. We need to protect people. These people should be quarantined! Period!


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> I have a friend that watches all of the "real housewives" shows. She said that if Theresa and Joe hadn't been on reality TV, they probably would have been in the clear. It wasn't until the subject came up in one episode that got the matter noticed. Were they bragging? Possibly. Someone, somewhere had a grudge against them.


I watch the Jersey wives. I don't know why. I guess to see what stupid things they're doing. The oldest daughter makes better sense than her parents. Poor kid can see they're awful people.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

32 reported serious events out of 23 M doses. All fatal events not equated to vaccine. Sounds safe to me.



Wombatnomore said:


> KFN, settle. I think you need to do some research because your claim is outrageous.
> 
> FYI:
> 
> http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/HPV/jama.html


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> 2nd British aid worker said to have been beheaded by IS:
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2780017/BREAKING-NEWS-British-ISIS-hostage-Alan-Henning-beheaded-new-video-released-terror-group.html


thanks for the update. Unfortunately I think everyone expected it to happen. It was so sad to see his wife begging on TV. Those rotten devils were probably laughing. I wish news outlets would stop showing the photos of the prisoners kneeling wearing orange with the creeps standing behind them ready to go kill them. It's just demeaning and it gives the trash more incentive to do it 
again.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Now Faux News......



Poor Purl said:


> This was published by the government. Don't expect KFN to believe it.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sometimes the truth is the most outlandish joke of all. 
Dr. Mercola probably doesn't see the joke he's making.



Poor Purl said:


> And while Wombat is on Dr. Mercola's website, she can shop for some of his products; he'll "match any price on Mercola brand products."
> 
> Honestly!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> thanks for the update. Unfortunately I think everyone expected it to happen. It was so sad to see his wife begging on TV. Those rotten devils were probably laughing. I wish news outlets would stop showing the photos of the prisoners kneeling wearing orange with the creeps standing behind them ready to go kill them. It's just demeaning and it gives the trash more incentive to do it
> again.


Publishing the vile beheadings is part of their strategy and while on the face of it, it's macabre and completely unacceptable, their use of social media has been clever and sophisticated. This is not just a group of dishevelled bearded, trigger happy maniacs, it's a highly organised, self-administered and disciplined organisation which is also obscenely wealthy.

The success of this organisation is concerning because it has the ability to fund and support other groups (of which there are many) and by doing so, will augment itself even further. We could see a situation where all of these groups meld into one, creating an uber 'front.'

My instinct tells me that the U.S. and it's allies are holding back because they simply do not know exactly what they're dealing with. Turkey has publicly pledged they will not allow IS to take the town of Kobane in Syria, but their tanks and troops continue to languish near the border.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29486232


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> thanks for the update. Unfortunately I think everyone expected it to happen. It was so sad to see his wife begging on TV. Those rotten devils were probably laughing. I wish news outlets would stop showing the photos of the prisoners kneeling wearing orange with the creeps standing behind them ready to go kill them. It's just demeaning and it gives the trash more incentive to do it
> again.


I agree with you. Terrorism depends on terror and terror is spread by the news media publishing these photos. News items can be reported without going into graphic details and without photos.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> 32 reported serious events out of 23 M doses. All fatal events not equated to vaccine. Sounds safe to me.


Reminds me of the misinformation published so widely that the whooping cough immunisation caused autism. I think that the English Doctor's name was Wakefield, but I could be incorrect. His research was later found to be fraudulent and he was stripped of his medical qualifications. Unfortunately, even today many people still believe all the misinformation and refuse to immunise their children, putting the whole community at risk.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Publishing the vile beheadings is part of their strategy and while on the face of it, it's macabre and completely unacceptable, their use of social media has been clever and sophisticated. This is not just a group of dishevelled bearded, trigger happy maniacs, it's a highly organised, self-administered and disciplined organisation which is also obscenely wealthy.
> 
> The success of this organisation is concerning because it has the ability to fund and support other groups (of which there are many) and by doing so, will augment itself even further. We could see a situation where all of these groups meld into one, creating an uber 'front.'
> 
> ...


Turkey does not want to give aid and assistance to the Kurds because they fear an uprising of the Kurds who live in Turkey. These Kurds have been pushing for independence within Turkey for years.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

I admit I am sceptical. President Obama commits to avenging IS if they behead the American in the reports but does not outline how. UK's David Cameron condemns the beheading of his fellow countryman but does not outline the U.K's actual plan of attack.

I understand that actual operations cannot be reported but I think the rhetoric could be somewhat more sensitively indicative of what is planned. To assume the people of the world will drink in the current western propaganda is a dangerous thing and it might just cause catastrophe.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2780234/ISIS-threatens-execute-American-war-veteran-turned-aid-worker-beheading-Briton-Brutal-extremists-challenge-Obama-admit-US-air-stikes-hurting-them.html


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Reminds me of the misinformation published so widely that the whooping cough immunisation caused autism. I think that the English Doctor's name was Wakefield, but I could be incorrect. His research was later found to be fraudulent and he was stripped of his medical qualifications. Unfortunately, even today many people still believe all the misinformation and refuse to immunise their children, putting the whole community at risk.


Anti-vaxxers are the worst kind of conspiracy theorists. Most of them are just annoying but refusing to vaccinate children endangers public health. No matter how much proof is presented, they cling to their delusions.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Publishing the vile beheadings is part of their strategy and while on the face of it, it's macabre and completely unacceptable, their use of social media has been clever and sophisticated. This is not just a group of dishevelled bearded, trigger happy maniacs, it's a highly organised, self-administered and disciplined organisation which is also obscenely wealthy.
> 
> The success of this organisation is concerning because it has the ability to fund and support other groups (of which there are many) and by doing so, will augment itself even further. We could see a situation where all of these groups meld into one, creating an uber 'front.'
> 
> ...


I agree, ISIS certainly used social media to their advantage. They have a great recruiting campaign going on through its use. I also agree with you that the US doesn't have a clue on how to deal with ISIS. I maintain that in order to defeat ISIS, we can't play by the usual "acceptable" rules of engagement. ISIS plays by their own rules and unfortunately it is working for them. We don't even have a plan for their defeat or elimination. If our goal isn't elimination, then we need to back out now.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> I agree, ISIS certainly used social media to their advantage. They have a great recruiting campaign going on through its use. I also agree with you that the US doesn't have a clue on how to deal with ISIS. I maintain that in order to defeat ISIS, we can't play by the usual "acceptable" rules of engagement. ISIS plays by their own rules and unfortunately it is working for them. We don't even have a plan for their defeat or elimination. If our goal isn't elimination, then we need to back out now.


I just read that there was a protest in London, with 700 people rejecting Britain's involvement in Iraq. Lots of placards stating that war is not the answer. Others stating 'dispute resolution not war.' Dispute resolution didn't help those poor souls who were beheaded.

I agree with you in that the usual rules of engagement are useless with this mob. I wonder whether an outright covert response would be more effective. Covert operations are undoubtedly going on but thinking about it, if the U.S. and her allies abruptly pulled out, without explanation, laid low for a period of time, then attack covertly? Whatever the approach, it has to be more psychological than diplomatic and physical.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2780192/How-tattooed-blonde-Texas-unlikely-dream-girl-ISIS-fighters.html

After reading the above, I had a scary thought. What if westerners' could be found for kidnapping through their use of the internet? That thought occurred to me when considering that IS haven't kidnapped an Australian yet (as far as we know).


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> I agree, ISIS certainly used social media to their advantage. They have a great recruiting campaign going on through its use. I also agree with you that the US doesn't have a clue on how to deal with ISIS. I maintain that in order to defeat ISIS, we can't play by the usual "acceptable" rules of engagement. ISIS plays by their own rules and unfortunately it is working for them. We don't even have a plan for their defeat or elimination. If our goal isn't elimination, then we need to back out now.


If the Rangers are being sent in, then we are not playing by the usual rules of engagement.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Anti-vaxxers are the worst kind of conspiracy theorists. Most of them are just annoying but refusing to vaccinate children endangers public health. No matter how much proof is presented, they cling to their delusions.


And they place many at risk who don't have to be at risk. Selfishness of the worst kind.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> And they place many at risk who don't have to be at risk. Selfishness of the worst kind.


Unbelievably, parents who register as 'conscientious objectors' to vaccination receive a tax payment!

Totally outrageous. :evil:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/scientists-call-for-end-of-handouts-to-parents-who-dont-vaccinate-children/story-fni0cx12-1226874673399?nk=c6bacfc8f2d0d260852a11c23b3afa6d


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Unbelievably, parents who register as 'conscientious objectors' to vaccination receive a tax payment!
> 
> Totally outrageous. :evil:
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/scientists-call-for-end-of-handouts-to-parents-who-dont-vaccinate-children/story-fni0cx12-1226874673399?nk=c6bacfc8f2d0d260852a11c23b3afa6d


I'm stunned.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Yes. that's what military people are being warned against right now. Their families also. The creep recently arrested this year in upstate New York was trying to recruit people to kill returning military people. He ran his terror recruiting from his restaurant. The outside of his restaurant was painted as if it were the red and white stripes of the United States flag. One square was the blue background with the white stars. A real wolf in sheeps clothing.



Wombatnomore said:


> I just read that there was a protest in London, with 700 people rejecting Britain's involvement in Iraq. Lots of placards stating that war is not the answer. Others stating 'dispute resolution not war.' Dispute resolution didn't help those poor souls who were beheaded.
> 
> I agree with you in that the usual rules of engagement are useless with this mob. I wonder whether an outright covert response would be more effective. Covert operations are undoubtedly going on but thinking about it, if the U.S. and her allies abruptly pulled out, without explanation, laid low for a period of time, then attack covertly? Whatever the approach, it has to be more psychological than diplomatic and physical.
> 
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Unbelievably, parents who register as 'conscientious objectors' to vaccination receive a tax payment!
> 
> Totally outrageous. :evil:
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/scientists-call-for-end-of-handouts-to-parents-who-dont-vaccinate-children/story-fni0cx12-1226874673399?nk=c6bacfc8f2d0d260852a11c23b3afa6d


To be accurate, they get the same tax payment as other parents, not something special for them. Since apparently the tax payments are specifically for vaccinations, the Australian bureaucracy is as bad as the American one at missing the point.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> And they place many at risk who don't have to be at risk. Selfishness of the worst kind.


There's a piece in today's NY Times by a woman who thought she'd contracted pertussis (whooping cough?) and felt guilty about all the babies she had been close to while coughing uncontrollably. It's a good quick read: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/05/magazine/a-new-mothers-fear-about-coughing-fits.html?ref=magazine&_r=0


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> And they place many at risk who don't have to be at risk. Selfishness of the worst kind.


IF the vaccines worked, the only people at risk would be those who are unvaccinated! The truth is that in the recent epidemics of measles and whooping cough, the vast majority of cases have been in those who HAVE already been vaccinated. IF the vaccines had worked, they wouldn't have gotten these diseases.

Vaccines contain mercury and/or aluminum. BOTH are neurotoxins and both are cumulative. A child born in 1983 would have received 10 vaccines between birth and age six. A child born in 2014, will receive 36-38 vaccines by age six. If the EPA says it's dangerous to breathe in aluminum and mercury. It's dangerous for an expectant mother to eat fish, due to the mercury. Is it really safe to inject these neurotoxins into newborns and small children? How much is too much? 10 vaccines? 38 vaccines? And is EVERY tiny little body capable of handling the same amount? It accumulates in the body and the brain! How can anyone know how much is too much? What if a baby or a child lives near a factory or power plant and has additional exposure to mercury or aluminum? Will the amount the breathe in AND the amount injected put them past the danger point? No one cares as long as they get their shots! Nobody tracks total exposure to these neurotoxins. No one cares! The government says it's safe. The government says it's safe because the drug companies told them it's safe. There has NEVER been an official study comparing immunized kids to immunized ones. Private studies are ridiculed. So, how much exposure to neurotoxins is safe? Has anybody ever said? How do they know?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IF the vaccines worked, the only people at risk would be those who are unvaccinated! The truth is that in the recent epidemics of measles and whooping cough, the vast majority of cases have been in those who HAVE already been vaccinated. IF the vaccines had worked, they wouldn't have gotten these diseases.
> 
> Vaccines contain mercury and/or aluminum. BOTH are neurotoxins and both are cumulative. A child born in 1983 would have received 10 vaccines between birth and age six. A child born in 2014, will receive 36-38 vaccines by age six. If the EPA says it's dangerous to breathe in aluminum and mercury. It's dangerous for an expectant mother to eat fish, due to the mercury. Is it really safe to inject these neurotoxins into newborns and small children? How much is too much? 10 vaccines? 38 vaccines? And is EVERY tiny little body capable of handling the same amount? It accumulates in the body and the brain! How can anyone know how much is too much? What if a baby or a child lives near a factory or power plant and has additional exposure to mercury or aluminum? Will the amount the breathe in AND the amount injected put them past the danger point? No one cares as long as they get their shots! Nobody tracks total exposure to these neurotoxins. No one cares! The government says it's safe. The government says it's safe because the drug companies told them it's safe. There has NEVER been an official study comparing immunized kids to immunized ones. Private studies are ridiculed. So, how much exposure to neurotoxins is safe? Has anybody ever said? How do they know?


Did you have your children vaccinated?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I The


Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IF the vaccines worked, the only people at risk would be those who are unvaccinated! The truth is that in the recent epidemics of measles and whooping cough, the vast majority of cases have been in those who HAVE already been vaccinated. IF the vaccines had worked, they wouldn't have gotten these diseases.
> 
> Vaccines contain mercury and/or aluminum. BOTH are neurotoxins and both are cumulative. A child born in 1983 would have received 10 vaccines between birth and age six. A child born in 2014, will receive 36-38 vaccines by age six. If the EPA says it's dangerous to breathe in aluminum and mercury. It's dangerous for an expectant mother to eat fish, due to the mercury. Is it really safe to inject these neurotoxins into newborns and small children? How much is too much? 10 vaccines? 38 vaccines? And is EVERY tiny little body capable of handling the same amount? It accumulates in the body and the brain! How can anyone know how much is too much? What if a baby or a child lives near a factory or power plant and has additional exposure to mercury or aluminum? Will the amount the breathe in AND the amount injected put them past the danger point? No one cares as long as they get their shots! Nobody tracks total exposure to these neurotoxins. No one cares! The government says it's safe. The government says it's safe because the drug companies told them it's safe. There has NEVER been an official study comparing immunized kids to immunized ones. Private studies are ridiculed. So, how much exposure to neurotoxins is safe? Has anybody ever said? How do they know?


Mercury has been out of vaccinations for awhile, hasn't it?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> There's a piece in today's NY Times by a woman who thought she'd contracted pertussis (whooping cough?) and felt guilty about all the babies she had been close to while coughing uncontrollably. It's a good quick read: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/05/magazine/a-new-mothers-fear-about-coughing-fits.html?ref=magazine&_r=0


Pure propaganda!

Have YOU had a pertussis vaccine? I actually have. My doctor talked me into it when two of my daughter's in law were pregnant. I knew nothing about vaccines, only that we were supposed to get them. I always did what I was supposed to do. I'm good for ten years. How about you?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> I The
> 
> Mercury has been out of vaccinations for awhile, hasn't it?


They took it out for a while, then started putting it back. The flu vaccine (not the mist) also has mercury in it and always has.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Did you have your children vaccinated?


I did! Back then, I never questioned doctors. I've since learned that while they SAY vaccines are safe, it's never been proven. I also think that everyone is different. Some people can be exposed to toxins, with no effect, others not so lucky. When my father was diagnosed with Parkinson's, the doctors said that research showed that if a person carried a certain gene, AND was exposed to herbicides or pesticides, they would get the disease. When he was younger, he worked in my grandfather's nursery, spraying trees, wearing NO protective clothing because the Ortho chemical company assured them that it was perfectly safe!

Later, I had my fist child. Long labor but two pushes and he was out. He was born perfect! He had a perfect Apgar score! Perfect in every way! After his two month vaccines, he started holding his right hand in a fist and it seemed as if it were glued to his chest. For eight months, the pediatrician kept telling me he was fine. Finally, I found a new pediatrician. Everything was not fine! He was diagnosed with Cerebral Palsy. I asked how could that be? He'd been perfect! They said it was a catch all term for anything wrong with the brain. By this time, I'd heard the vaccine thing and asked the doctor. He said he wasn't sure but from then on out he gave my son the DT instead of the DPT.

Five years later, my third son started having seizures after his vaccines. I didn't know that there could be a connection between seizures and vaccines. It's now admitted, but it wasn't then. Thankfully, his seizures stopped when he was nine years old. But this son had ADHD.

Now, I've grandsons. My oldest grandson has Sensory Processing Disorder, which is a new name for Autism. My second grandson has Asthma. My third grandson has Exema and he has other issues that haven't been diagnosed yet. Independent research has shown a link between all of these things and vaccines. So, I want to know why! I want to know why, one in every 50 schoolage kids has Autism! If it's not vaccines, what's causing it and why haven't they found out? What's happening to our children, and why doesn't anybody care! Why do we let them tell us everything is fine, when we KNOW it's not?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I did! Back then, I never questioned doctors. I've since learned that while they SAY vaccines are safe, it's never been proven. I also think that everyone is different. Some people can be exposed to toxins, with no effect, others not so lucky. When my father was diagnosed with Parkinson's, the doctors said that research showed that if a person carried a certain gene, AND was exposed to herbicides or pesticides, they would get the disease. When he was younger, he worked in my grandfather's nursery, spraying trees, wearing NO protective clothing because the Ortho chemical company assured them that it was perfectly safe!
> 
> Later, I had my fist child. Long labor but two pushes and he was out. He was born perfect! He had a perfect Apgar score! Perfect in every way! After his two month vaccines, he started holding his right hand in a fist and it seemed as if it were glued to his chest. For eight months, the pediatrician kept telling me he was fine. Finally, I found a new pediatrician. Everything was not fine! He was diagnosed with Cerebral Palsy. I asked how could that be? He'd been perfect! They said it was a catch all term for anything wrong with the brain. By this time, I'd heard the vaccine thing and asked the doctor. He said he wasn't sure but from then on out he gave my son the DT instead of the DPT.
> 
> ...


I can't imagine your anguish over your children's and grandchildren's health problems and I'm sincerely sorry to hear about them.

But anecdotal evidence is not evidence. Your family does NOT constitute a scientific study. Correlation does NOT equal causation.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> I The
> 
> Mercury has been out of vaccinations for awhile, hasn't it?


Still used in some flu vaccines, but out of everything else.

Wait for it....

The next objection is aluminum, then the number of vaccines recommended are overwhelming the immune system and then "big pharma" and doctors making big bucks by harming kids.

Just another conspiracy theory. There is definitely a pattern here.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Pure propaganda!
> 
> Have YOU had a pertussis vaccine? I actually have. My doctor talked me into it when two of my daughter's in law were pregnant. I knew nothing about vaccines, only that we were supposed to get them. I always did what I was supposed to do. I'm good for ten years. How about you?


No, but I had whooping cough as a child, together with my brother. I remember the coughing fits and the difficulty catching my breath and the whooping. I think I was 8 and he was 5 and we were both able to tolerate it. It would have been much worse if we had been much younger. How did the pertussis vaccine harm you, as it must have, the way you speak about it.

And how offensive you are to call the piece I linked to "Pure propaganda!" If you read it, you would have seen it was not written by anyone connected with the vaccine industry. If you didn't read it, then you were doubly offensive.

And the same organ of propaganda, The New York Times, had an article yesterday on the front page of the business section discussing how the value of the dollar has risen compared to the currencies of our trading partners. This should calm your fears, though I bet it doesn't. It makes me feel worse about job prospects for the future.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> I The
> 
> Mercury has been out of vaccinations for awhile, hasn't it?


I thought it was, or that parents had a choice - they had to ask the doctor for one without mercury, or the old one would be given automatically.

KFN's entire message is something I read about 8 or more years ago, including most of the wording. I'm sure there's been some change since then.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Still used in some flu vaccines, but out of everything else.
> 
> Wait for it....
> 
> ...


NOT TRUE! Here's a list of vaccines with thimerosol (mercury)! Do you believe the FDA?!? Or are they conspiracy theorists as well? You are so easily fooled! 
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#t3


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IF the vaccines worked, the only people at risk would be those who are unvaccinated! The truth is that in the recent epidemics of measles and whooping cough, the vast majority of cases have been in those who HAVE already been vaccinated. IF the vaccines had worked, they wouldn't have gotten these diseases.
> 
> Vaccines contain mercury and/or aluminum. BOTH are neurotoxins and both are cumulative. A child born in 1983 would have received 10 vaccines between birth and age six. A child born in 2014, will receive 36-38 vaccines by age six. If the EPA says it's dangerous to breathe in aluminum and mercury. It's dangerous for an expectant mother to eat fish, due to the mercury. Is it really safe to inject these neurotoxins into newborns and small children? How much is too much? 10 vaccines? 38 vaccines? And is EVERY tiny little body capable of handling the same amount? It accumulates in the body and the brain! How can anyone know how much is too much? What if a baby or a child lives near a factory or power plant and has additional exposure to mercury or aluminum? Will the amount the breathe in AND the amount injected put them past the danger point? No one cares as long as they get their shots! Nobody tracks total exposure to these neurotoxins. No one cares! The government says it's safe. The government says it's safe because the drug companies told them it's safe. There has NEVER been an official study comparing immunized kids to immunized ones. Private studies are ridiculed. So, how much exposure to neurotoxins is safe? Has anybody ever said? How do they know?


Come to think of it, how do you know all this? Have you ever really searched for such studies, in the medical literature, or does it come from the website of Dr. Mercola or someone like him (who may have other products for sale)?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I can't imagine your anguish over your children's and grandchildren's health problems and I'm sincerely sorry to hear about them.
> 
> But anecdotal evidence is not evidence. Your family does NOT constitute a scientific study. Correlation does NOT equal causation.


I never claimed that anecdotal evidence is evidence. But that's what the drug companies do when they tell you it's safe! There has NEVER been proof that vaccines are safe! They just tell you they are and you believe them!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Still used in some flu vaccines, but out of everything else.
> 
> Wait for it....
> 
> ...


Ya think?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> No, but I had whooping cough as a child, together with my brother. I remember the coughing fits and the difficulty catching my breath and the whooping. I think I was 8 and he was 5 and we were both able to tolerate it. It would have been much worse if we had been much younger. How did the pertussis vaccine harm you, as it must have, the way you speak about it.
> 
> And how offensive you are to call the piece I linked to "Pure propaganda!" If you read it, you would have seen it was not written by anyone connected with the vaccine industry. If you didn't read it, then you were doubly offensive.
> 
> And the same organ of propaganda, The New York Times, had an article yesterday on the front page of the business section discussing how the value of the dollar has risen compared to the currencies of our trading partners. This should calm your fears, though I bet it doesn't. It makes me feel worse about job prospects for the future.


I read it all! It was a pure propaganda peice! As far as your whooping cough? Having had whooping cough as a child doesn't assure immunity. Read this from the CDC!
http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/about/faqs.html

Better get your vaccine!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I thought it was, or that parents had a choice - they had to ask the doctor for one without mercury, or the old one would be given automatically.
> 
> KFN's entire message is something I read about 8 or more years ago, including most of the wording. I'm sure there's been some change since then.


You're a liar! My words are mine and you never heard them eight years ago! And you're wrong about the mercury! That's something they did temporarily to calm the people. They went back to putting thimerisol in the vaccines without telling people. Maybe you should keep up with the latest information.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I read it all! It was a pure propaganda peice! As far as your whooping cough? Having had whooping cough as a child doesn't assure immunity. Read this from the CDC!
> http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/about/faqs.html
> 
> Better get your vaccine!


A propaganda piece? It was a personal essay. Now I know how seriously to take what you say.

By the way, you seemed to have missed my comment about the dollar. Isn't that one of your subjects?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You're a liar! My words are mine and you never heard them eight years ago! And you're wrong about the mercury! That's something they did temporarily to calm the people. They went back to putting thimerisol in the vaccines without telling people. Maybe you should keep up with the latest information.


In fact, I'm not a liar. You may have written it yourself, but you read about it elsewhere. Robert Kennedy, Jr., has had a long battle against vaccines, especially thimerisol, and a lot of what you've said he said years ago.

At least be open and tell us where your information comes from. Just saying they've but something back without telling anyone is not very convincing. (And don't say you're not trying to convince anyone; of course you are, or you wouldn't be fighting this hard about it.)


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Come to think of it, how do you know all this? Have you ever really searched for such studies, in the medical literature, or does it come from the website of Dr. Mercola or someone like him (who may have other products for sale)?


Unlike you, I've looked at many sources, not just the corrupted ones. You're so willing to acknowledge that corporations are corrupt and buy off the politicians. But you refuse to even think that that could be the case here. There are none as corrupt as the drug companies! Prescription drugs are the leading cause of death in the US and yet, you don't think they'd lie. They do lie and people die as a result.

I challenge you to show me one study that compares vaccinated kids to unvaccinated kids. You won't find one done by the drug companies. But you can find some by independent researchers. You won't like what they say.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Ya think?


I posted a link from the FDA. Was that not good enough?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> A propaganda piece? It was a personal essay. Now I know how seriously to take what you say.
> 
> By the way, you seemed to have missed my comment about the dollar. Isn't that one of your subjects?


The dollar has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Why are you trying to change the subject?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Unlike you, I've looked at many sources, not just the corrupted ones. You're so willing to acknowledge that corporations are corrupt and buy off the politicians. But you refuse to even think that that could be the case here. There are none as corrupt as the drug companies! Prescription drugs are the leading cause of death in the US and yet, you don't think they'd lie. They do lie and people die as a result.
> 
> I challenge you to show me one study that compares vaccinated kids to unvaccinated kids. You won't find one done by the drug companies. But you can find some by independent researchers. You won't like what they say.


I hold no brief for the pharmaceutical companies - I think they're as greedy and corrupt as you do. But I have some confidence in the medical profession, having had experience with quite a few fine doctors (who can't be all that greedy, since they all accept Medicare, which pays peanuts). I don't think doctors would give medications they knew were dangerous, and please don't tell me you know more than most doctors.

Oh, never mind. I've never met anyone who knew as much as you do about so many different subjects. I'm in awe. As I am of KPG.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The dollar has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Why are you trying to change the subject?


Not trying to change the subject, just introduce a new one. I thought of you when I saw the piece in the paper, because I remember you writing warnings about how the dollar is going down the drain. You even asked us to trust you on that.

If you like, I'll drop it, or we can save it for another time. After all, this thread started out with terrorism, and now we're on vaccines.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> In fact, I'm not a liar. You may have written it yourself, but you read about it elsewhere. Robert Kennedy, Jr., has had a long battle against vaccines, especially thimerisol, and a lot of what you've said he said years ago.
> 
> At least be open and tell us where your information comes from. Just saying they've but something back without telling anyone is not very convincing. (And don't say you're not trying to convince anyone; of course you are, or you wouldn't be fighting this hard about it.)


I'm fighting when you accuse me of using someone else's words! It's a lie! It would be a waste of my time to post my sources. If I posted 50 doctors, you'd find something wrong with them. But I'll go ahead and post a few links to articles that detail the lies and corruption. I don't know why I bother.
http://vactruth.com/2014/09/10/cdc-corrupt-and-dangerous/

http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=13EAAF22CDA367BB3C2F94D2CD90EF7B

http://vactruth.com/2013/04/02/who-suspends-vaccine/?utm_source=The+Vaccine+Truth+Newsletter&utm_campaign=6d0d6bbcf6-04_02_2013_who&utm_medium=email

http://www.newsmaxhealth.com/Headline/influenza-virus-flu-vaccine-Peter-Doshi-Ph-D-/2013/05/16/id/504942/?s=al&promo_code=13895-1

http://vactruth.com/2013/07/04/vaccination-causes-autism/?utm_source=The+Vaccine+Truth+Newsletter&utm_campaign=ceccd959e7-07_04_2013_autism&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ce7860ee83-ceccd959e7-408196345

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/2013-measles-outbreak-failing-vaccine-not-failure-vaccinate1


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I hold no brief for the pharmaceutical companies - I think they're as greedy and corrupt as you do. But I have some confidence in the medical profession, having had experience with quite a few fine doctors (who can't be all that greedy, since they all accept Medicare, which pays peanuts). I don't think doctors would give medications they knew were dangerous, and please don't tell me you know more than most doctors.
> 
> Oh, never mind. I've never met anyone who knew as much as you do about so many different subjects. I'm in awe. As I am of KPG.


I'm not criticizing the medical profession as a whole. There are many, many wonderful, caring doctors! I don't think that any doctor would knowingly prescribe medications that are dangerous. I think the deceit lies with the drug companies. They lie. They change their figures. They tell the doctors that these drugs are safe and effective even if they know they're not. The FDA does not test any drugs. Its up to the drug companies to do the research and testing. They've been caught lying over and over, but its more profitable to pay the fines and the lawsuits than to not put out a bad drug.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Lots to consider. It's worth reading.



Poor Purl said:


> There's a piece in today's NY Times by a woman who thought she'd contracted pertussis (whooping cough?) and felt guilty about all the babies she had been close to while coughing uncontrollably. It's a good quick read: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/05/magazine/a-new-mothers-fear-about-coughing-fits.html?ref=magazine&_r=0


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Come to think of it, how do you know all this? Have you ever really searched for such studies, in the medical literature, or does it come from the website of Dr. Mercola or someone like him (who may have other products for sale)?


You're thinking the way I'm thinking.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I never claimed that anecdotal evidence is evidence. But that's what the drug companies do when they tell you it's safe! There has NEVER been proof that vaccines are safe! They just tell you they are and you believe them!


"NEVER been proof (sic) vaccines are safe!" This statement alone leads me to shun your ideas.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I hold no brief for the pharmaceutical companies - I think they're as greedy and corrupt as you do. But I have some confidence in the medical profession, having had experience with quite a few fine doctors (who can't be all that greedy, since they all accept Medicare, which pays peanuts). I don't think doctors would give medications they knew were dangerous, and please don't tell me you know more than most doctors.
> 
> Oh, never mind. I've never met anyone who knew as much as you do about so many different subjects. I'm in awe. As I am of KPG.


I don't call it 'awe,' unless it's 'ahhhhhhh.'


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Lots to consider. It's worth reading.


But I've been told it's "pure propaganda."


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

There have been many different views, theories and studies posted on the net regarding vaccines, you have to be careful and check the source.

One such source is

Studies Prove Without Doubt That Unvaccinated Children ...
vactruth.com/2014/02/26/unvaccinated-children-healthier/

but please remember that vactruth is an organisation whose mission is to prove that vaccines are harmful. You have to dig deeper and analyse their sources, their surveys and their survey methods. Many of their survey methods can be questioned and survey sample is either too small or not random.

Then we have Dr Wakefield. I just did a quick search and came across this report.
Antivaccine hero Andrew Wakefield: Scientific fraud?

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-perils-and-pitfalls-of-doing-a-vaccinated-versus-unvaccinated-study/

I will just quote a few paragraphs here, but I suggest you read the whole article. It is too large to cut and paste.



> ....not only was Wakefield paid big bucks by trial lawyers seeking to sue vaccine manufacturers for vaccine injury to do his studies on autistic children, a conflict of interest he never revealed and that had to be exposed through Deers investigations, but months before he published his Lancet paper Wakefield had applied for a patent on a an allegedly safer single measles vaccine that could succeed best if the safety of the MMR were called into doubt.
> 
> The research was published in February 1998 in an article in The Lancet medical journal. It claimed that the families of eight out of 12 children attending a routine clinic at the hospital had blamed MMR for their autism, and said that problems came on within days of the jab..However, our investigation, confirmed by evidence presented to the General Medical Council (GMC), reveals that: In most of the 12 cases, the childrens ailments as described in The Lancet were different from their hospital and GP records. Although the research paper claimed that problems came on within days of the jab, in only one case did medical records suggest this was true, and in many of the cases medical concerns had been raised before the children were vaccinated.
> In the paper this claim would be adopted, with Wakefield and his team reporting that Child Ones parents said behavioural symptoms started one week after he received the MMR.
> ...


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm fighting when you accuse me of using someone else's words! It's a lie! It would be a waste of my time to post my sources. If I posted 50 doctors, you'd find something wrong with them. But I'll go ahead and post a few links to articles that detail the lies and corruption. I don't know why I bother.
> http://vactruth.com/2014/09/10/cdc-corrupt-and-dangerous/
> 
> http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=13EAAF22CDA367BB3C2F94D2CD90EF7B
> ...


Please, vactruth is an organisation who are fiercely anti vaccine. You have to question their motives in publishing these articles.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> You're thinking the way I'm thinking.


I don't trust the drug manufacturers at all, but I also have problems with such websites as 
http://vactruth.com , The Vaccine Truth Newsletter, http://tv.naturalnews.com, http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/2013-measles-outbreak-failing-vaccine-not-failure-vaccin..., which all seem to have axes to grind.

There are reports by professionals who do the testing and write up the studies (that's something biology PhDs do if they're not teaching), and I'd prefer to see their results. But they're not so easy to find or to read using Google (or Bing). It's much easier to start with the result you want and do a search for it.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> But I've been told it's "pure propaganda."


Listen to me.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I did! Back then, I never questioned doctors. I've since learned that while they SAY vaccines are safe, it's never been proven. I also think that everyone is different. Some people can be exposed to toxins, with no effect, others not so lucky. When my father was diagnosed with Parkinson's, the doctors said that research showed that if a person carried a certain gene, AND was exposed to herbicides or pesticides, they would get the disease. When he was younger, he worked in my grandfather's nursery, spraying trees, wearing NO protective clothing because the Ortho chemical company assured them that it was perfectly safe!
> 
> Later, I had my fist child. Long labor but two pushes and he was out. He was born perfect! He had a perfect Apgar score! Perfect in every way! After his two month vaccines, he started holding his right hand in a fist and it seemed as if it were glued to his chest. For eight months, the pediatrician kept telling me he was fine. Finally, I found a new pediatrician. Everything was not fine! He was diagnosed with Cerebral Palsy. I asked how could that be? He'd been perfect! They said it was a catch all term for anything wrong with the brain. By this time, I'd heard the vaccine thing and asked the doctor. He said he wasn't sure but from then on out he gave my son the DT instead of the DPT.
> 
> ...


There is no evidence whatsoever that vaccines are a causal link to any of the health issues you've outlined.

If there was, do you honestly think the government of the day would allow vaccines to continue to be given? Common sense just has to prevail here. I'm having a hard time wondering where it is you're coming from. :shock:


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IF the vaccines worked, the only people at risk would be those who are unvaccinated! The truth is that in the recent epidemics of measles and whooping cough, the vast majority of cases have been in those who HAVE already been vaccinated. IF the vaccines had worked, they wouldn't have gotten these diseases.
> 
> Vaccines contain mercury and/or aluminum. BOTH are neurotoxins and both are cumulative. A child born in 1983 would have received 10 vaccines between birth and age six. A child born in 2014, will receive 36-38 vaccines by age six. If the EPA says it's dangerous to breathe in aluminum and mercury. It's dangerous for an expectant mother to eat fish, due to the mercury. Is it really safe to inject these neurotoxins into newborns and small children? How much is too much? 10 vaccines? 38 vaccines? And is EVERY tiny little body capable of handling the same amount? It accumulates in the body and the brain! How can anyone know how much is too much? What if a baby or a child lives near a factory or power plant and has additional exposure to mercury or aluminum? Will the amount the breathe in AND the amount injected put them past the danger point? No one cares as long as they get their shots! Nobody tracks total exposure to these neurotoxins. No one cares! The government says it's safe. The government says it's safe because the drug companies told them it's safe. There has NEVER been an official study comparing immunized kids to immunized ones. Private studies are ridiculed. So, how much exposure to neurotoxins is safe? Has anybody ever said? How do they know?


I can't agree with you, Nebraska--modern vaccines are a blessing, and even if there was a slightly elevated risk of autism I'd still choose for my son to have the shots. I remember too clearly how ill my fourteen-year old brother became when he caught chicken pox, recall too my mother describing the polio epidemics of the 50s and how terrifying they were.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Speaking of polio, cases in Pakistan have increased sharply:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-03/polio-cases-in-pakistan-to-hit-record-high-officials/5787298

It'd difficult to comprehend when we in the west are free of it. And all the while, militants are attacking health care workers. It's proving to be a very dark age.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Speaking of polio, cases in Pakistan have increased sharply:
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-03/polio-cases-in-pakistan-to-hit-record-high-officials/5787298
> 
> It'd difficult to comprehend when we in the west are free of it. And all the while, militants are attacking health care workers. It's proving to be a very dark age.


Yes, it is. I simply can't understand those who preach against vaccinations when we've all seen folks limping about in public, their legs bent and twisted from polio. Smallpox, measles, mumps, whooping cough, diphtheria-such diseases used to strike mortal fear in the hearts of parents. My son had to have a DT booster this summer, and I remember feeling so thankful that he'd never catch any of those dreadful diseases.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> There is no evidence whatsoever that vaccines are a causal link to any of the health issues you've outlined.
> 
> If there was, do you honestly think the government of the day would allow vaccines to continue to be given? Common sense just has to prevail here. I'm having a hard time wondering where it is you're coming from. :shock:


In one of the articles cited, there is the unqualified statement that WHO and UNICEF are both part of the plan to depopulate the world. It all goes back to the New World Order conspiracy. There is no common sense here, and certainly no attempt to provide any evidence as to how our government and all these agencies who are "in on" the plot actually function to accomplish their nefarious plans. How do they recruit people? Considering how many people would have to be kept silent, how many more would be needed to keep them silent? The next step of the plan is not stated, either - why this reduction in population would achieve the desired increase in power. Power over what? Who benefits and when are these masterminds going to finally reveal themselves? The "plan" for a new world order has been around about a hundred years. Patience, grasshopper.

I'm reminded of the "death panel" ridiculousness that Sarah Palin spoke of. Imagine, if you will, the number of people who would have to staff these death panels at every hospital in the country. Just THINK of the bureaucracy it would require. Who would serve on such a panel, and how would they be kept silent? Doctors and nurses would not universally follow instructions to let people die - they would talk. Scream. Refuse. What about the unfortunate souls who were consigned to die? Their families would be screaming bloody murder, yet this has not happened. Still, this conspiracy theory thrives. Think of the magnitude of the organization it would require to kill off major chunks of the world population.

Face plant. I know I'm talking to myself and dedicated CTists never answer any of these logical questions. EVER.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Yes, it is. I simply can't understand those who preach against vaccinations when we've all seen folks limping about in public, their legs bent and twisted from polio. Smallpox, measles, mumps, whooping cough, diphtheria-such diseases used to strike mortal fear in the hearts of parents. My son had to have a DT booster this summer, and I remember feeling so thankful that he'd never catch any of those dreadful diseases.


The first funeral I ever attended was for my little 18-month-old cousin, who died from encephalitis associated with measles. This was well before the MMR vaccine was developed. I also worked with a woman who contracted rubella during pregnancy and her daughter was born blind. Vaccines prevent some pretty tragic illnesses.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> There is no evidence whatsoever that vaccines are a causal link to any of the health issues you've outlined.
> 
> If there was, do you honestly think the government of the day would allow vaccines to continue to be given? Common sense just has to prevail here. I'm having a hard time wondering where it is you're coming from. :shock:


I think you'd be surprised at the answer you get. Or maybe not. But the idea that there is nobody in government or medical circles who stands up for the people is not only depressing but also anti-human nature.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Eve, you've obviously given the subject a lot of thought, and time as well. I suspect there's a strong need for parents to have someone to blame when something is wrong with their child. They convince themselves their child was perfect until..., when s/he probably wasn't. And it's a short step from there to blaming the meds or the doctors for forcing them to inoculate their babies against some of the horrible diseases that still plague less-developed parts of the world.

I had a close friend who contracted polio in the mid-1940s. I have pictures of him at the age of five, when we were playing, and then at a later age (he was 6 or 7 when it happened) when he was in a wheelchair. There was no vaccine then, so parents would try anything to avoid the illness. (I wore a little velvet bag containing camphor on a ribbon around my neck - thanks, Mom, for knowing how to sew; all my friends smelled like clothes closets.)

Thank you for posting this, and for being someone who faces her own problems and doesn't try to find others to blame them on.



EveMCooke said:


> There have been many different views, theories and studies posted on the net regarding vaccines, you have to be careful and check the source.
> 
> One such source is
> 
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Listen to me.


Of course I will. It's so obviously not propaganda but a simple personal statement that I question the motives of anyone who would call it by that name.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Yes, it is. I simply can't understand those who preach against vaccinations when we've all seen folks limping about in public, their legs bent and twisted from polio. Smallpox, measles, mumps, whooping cough, diphtheria-such diseases used to strike mortal fear in the hearts of parents. My son had to have a DT booster this summer, and I remember feeling so thankful that he'd never catch any of those dreadful diseases.


As you should. I had one shot as a child - smallpox (and maybe diphtheria, but I recall only smallpox) - and suffered through measles, mumps, whooping cough, and chicken pox, fortunately mild cases, but I've heard so many stories of permanent damage done by these that I'm surprised most of us escaped unharmed.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> In one of the articles cited, there is the unqualified statement that WHO and UNICEF are both part of the plan to depopulate the world. It all goes back to the New World Order conspiracy. There is no common sense here, and certainly no attempt to provide any evidence as to how our government and all these agencies who are "in on" the plot actually function to accomplish their nefarious plans. How do they recruit people? Considering how many people would have to be kept silent, how many more would be needed to keep them silent? The next step of the plan is not stated, either - why this reduction in population would achieve the desired increase in power. Power over what? Who benefits and when are these masterminds going to finally reveal themselves? The "plan" for a new world order has been around about a hundred years. Patience, grasshopper.
> 
> I'm reminded of the "death panel" ridiculousness that Sarah Palin spoke of. Imagine, if you will, the number of people who would have to staff these death panels at every hospital in the country. Just THINK of the bureaucracy it would require. Who would serve on such a panel, and how would they be kept silent? Doctors and nurses would not universally follow instructions to let people die - they would talk. Scream. Refuse. What about the unfortunate souls who were consigned to die? Their families would be screaming bloody murder, yet this has not happened. Still, this conspiracy theory thrives. Think of the magnitude of the organization it would require to kill off major chunks of the world population.
> 
> Face plant. I know I'm talking to myself and dedicated CTists never answer any of these logical questions. EVER.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I can't agree with you, Nebraska--modern vaccines are a blessing, and even if there was a slightly elevated risk of autism I'd still choose for my son to have the shots. I remember too clearly how ill my fourteen-year old brother became when he caught chicken pox, recall too my mother describing the polio epidemics of the 50s and how terrifying they were.


I lived through those years when these diseases were considered common childhood diseases. I suffered from whooping cough when I was 2 years old. The whooping cough vaccine was not available in 1943 in Australia, and it was also the war years. Until the early 1950s children were only immunised against diphtheria and tetanus. I also suffered from measles in 1946 and chicken pox in 1952, as well as mumps in 1949 and glandular fever in 1948. Several of my classmates came down with diphtheria in 1950 but I was lucky and did not catch it. The vaccinations for these diseases were in the future. I remember how sick I was with all except the whooping cough because I was too young to remember that but my mother thought I was dying on several occasions whilst I was suffering from it. I also vividly remember the polio outbreaks of 1948/9 and went to school with many children who suffered and ended up crippled or with withered limbs as a result. In 1954 the girl who sat next to me in school suffered from Polio, in fact her whole family did. I was away from school for over a month at the same time that they were diagnosed with polio. My mother said was a bad case of the flu, I could not get out of bed for over three weeks and often think I may have had a mild dose of the disease. The Salk vaccine was introduced in 1954 in Australia. Children can and do die from complications from measles. My daughter suffered from whooping cough when she was 7 years old and she had been fully immunised. The doctor said it was only a mild case as the vaccination did not totally prevent anyone catching the disease but lessened the severity. I remember how sick she was. She would cough and cough and cough until she was exhausted. I wonder if the other poster has ever seen a very small baby suffering from whooping cough, caught from a child who was not immunised. My daughter caught it from the children of friends who were not immunised.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

A cure for Ebola?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2781109/Has-Thailand-come-vaccine-EBOLA-Scientists-claim-developed-effective-antibody-kill-deadly-virus.html


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> In one of the articles cited, there is the unqualified statement that WHO and UNICEF are both part of the plan to depopulate the world. It all goes back to the New World Order conspiracy. There is no common sense here, and certainly no attempt to provide any evidence as to how our government and all these agencies who are "in on" the plot actually function to accomplish their nefarious plans. How do they recruit people? Considering how many people would have to be kept silent, how many more would be needed to keep them silent? The next step of the plan is not stated, either - why this reduction in population would achieve the desired increase in power. Power over what? Who benefits and when are these masterminds going to finally reveal themselves? The "plan" for a new world order has been around about a hundred years. Patience, grasshopper.
> 
> I'm reminded of the "death panel" ridiculousness that Sarah Palin spoke of. Imagine, if you will, the number of people who would have to staff these death panels at every hospital in the country. Just THINK of the bureaucracy it would require. Who would serve on such a panel, and how would they be kept silent? Doctors and nurses would not universally follow instructions to let people die - they would talk. Scream. Refuse. What about the unfortunate souls who were consigned to die? Their families would be screaming bloody murder, yet this has not happened. Still, this conspiracy theory thrives. Think of the magnitude of the organization it would require to kill off major chunks of the world population.
> 
> Face plant. I know I'm talking to myself and dedicated CTists never answer any of these logical questions. EVER.


'Patience, grasshopper.' Love it! :XD:


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

I remember when autism was caused by "refrigerator mothers." Always willing to blame women, theorists decided that autism was caused by women who didn't give their children enough love. Now there has to be something new to blame--everything from vaccinations to diet to having nerdy parents. I have compassion for parents of autistic children, but other than "something neurological" I don't believe there is a firm, stated cause for autism supported by scientific evidence. In the meantime, parents are searching for causes and treatments.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> I remember when autism was caused by "refrigerator mothers." Always willing to blame women, theorists decided that autism was caused by women who didn't give their children enough love. Now there has to be something new to blame--everything from vaccinations to diet to having nerdy parents. I have compassion for parents of autistic children, but other than "something neurological" I don't believe there is a firm, stated cause for autism supported by scientific evidence. In the meantime, parents are searching for causes and treatments.


I used to work with a woman who had an autistic daughter. Since nobody liked her anyway, we all bought into the cause as being her personality. We were right not to like her - I once lent her a book that had only recently been taken off the banned list, and she never returned it, though I asked her for it many times. Still, I know she wasn't responsible for her daughter's condition.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

When I was a child I never suffered any disease by halves. I almost died from chicken pox, measles and mumps. The mumps at a friend's house, where I was quarantined & didn't see my mom for that time, phone only. Believe me, vaccines are the best thing since sliced bread.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> 'Patience, grasshopper.' Love it! :XD:


You will note that none of the CTists have bothered to respond to logical questions. They never do, but continue to insist the sky is falling.


----------



## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

DGreen said:


> In one of the articles cited, there is the unqualified statement that WHO and UNICEF are both part of the plan to depopulate the world. It all goes back to the New World Order conspiracy. There is no common sense here, and certainly no attempt to provide any evidence as to how our government and all these agencies who are "in on" the plot actually function to accomplish their nefarious plans. How do they recruit people? Considering how many people would have to be kept silent, how many more would be needed to keep them silent? The next step of the plan is not stated, either - why this reduction in population would achieve the desired increase in power. Power over what? Who benefits and when are these masterminds going to finally reveal themselves? The "plan" for a new world order has been around about a hundred years. Patience, grasshopper.
> 
> I'm reminded of the "death panel" ridiculousness that Sarah Palin spoke of. Imagine, if you will, the number of people who would have to staff these death panels at every hospital in the country. Just THINK of the bureaucracy it would require. Who would serve on such a panel, and how would they be kept silent? Doctors and nurses would not universally follow instructions to let people die - they would talk. Scream. Refuse. What about the unfortunate souls who were consigned to die? Their families would be screaming bloody murder, yet this has not happened. Still, this conspiracy theory thrives. Think of the magnitude of the organization it would require to kill off major chunks of the world population.
> 
> Face plant. I know I'm talking to myself and dedicated CTists never answer any of these logical questions. EVER.


The VA hospital Vet wait list was exactly that, Death Panels. A person can dispute it, but the end for many vets was death.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> When I was a child I never suffered any disease by halves. I almost died from chicken pox, measles and mumps. The mumps at a friend's house, where I was quarantined & didn't see my mom for that time, phone only. Believe me, vaccines are the best thing since sliced bread.


Except for sliced bread in the form of penicillin.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

galinipper said:


> The VA hospital Vet wait list was exactly that, Death Panels. A person can dispute it, but the end for many vets was death.


That's a truly sad situation, but the Death Panels were supposed to come with the ACA. Have they?


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

galinipper said:


> The VA hospital Vet wait list was exactly that, Death Panels. A person can dispute it, but the end for many vets was death.


I'm talking about the ACA and how one obscure benefit was blown into a scare tactic by the conservative right.

The VA hospital scandal is something different entirely. I don't think anyone has suggested that is a vast conspiracy to eliminate veterans - it was and is a horrendous failure of leadership and dereliction of duty. The lack of support in congress for our veterans is inexcusable. Please note who is voting against money for vets. But it is not a person-by-person evaluation of who should live and who should die.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The death panel is the insurance company because of Obamacare. They are deciding who will live or die by the treatment they will pay for or not. They decide if the person is worth living.
> Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/2/curran-one-familys-obamacare-nightmare/#ixzz3FJ684oVM


Good old Washington Times. One of the GOP's best works of fiction.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> The death panel is the insurance company because of Obamacare. They are deciding who will live or die by the treatment they will pay for or not. They decide if the person is worth living. This is the death panel for their children:


One of many sad stories highlighted to prove the ACA is horrible. It isn't. It benefits a lot of people.

You know exactly what the "Death Panels" fabrication entailed. Now you are using that phrase regarding an entirely different thing and claiming, "See! We were right!" You changed the argument and then claim victory. Lame.

Insurance companies have ALWAYS defined what they would and would not cover and it never worked in favor of sick people. Remember the maximum payment caps that insurance companies had always used to throw sick people off their plans? A death sentence for many. The ACA prohibits that.

So, tell me, have you come up with any explanation of how these panels Sarah Palin talks about would work?


----------



## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

With-out committing more time than I am willing to give up to Obamacare/death panels and pretending like the progressives source for information is with-out bias, I can wrap it up in just a few words. 
I believe about 5% of what our elected officials say.
I believe about 10% of what the media says.
I don't trust the United States Government. 
There, that covers it.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

galinipper said:


> With-out committing more time than I am willing to give up to Obamacare/death panels and pretending like the progressives source for information is with-out bias, I can wrap it up in just a few words.
> I believe about 5% of what our elected officials say.
> I believe about 10% of what the media says.
> I don't trust the United States Government.
> There, that covers it.


Covers your opinion. Now let's hear some facts that make you think death panels are real.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

galinipper said:


> With-out committing more time than I am willing to give up to Obamacare/death panels and pretending like the progressives source for information is with-out bias, I can wrap it up in just a few words.
> I believe about 5% of what our elected officials say.
> I believe about 10% of what the media says.
> I don't trust the United States Government.
> There, that covers it.


So who cares?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> "NEVER been proof (sic) vaccines are safe!" This statement alone leads me to shun your ideas.


Why? Would you like to contradict my statement with evidence? Apparently not! No official study has been conducted to compare vaccinated children to unvaccinated children. If you'd bothered reading the articles I linked, you would have seen a quote by Dr Colleen Boyle, the Director of the National Center on Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities at the CDC. She was quoted speaking to a congressional committee. She said, "We have not studied vaccinated vs unvaccinated.".


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> There have been many different views, theories and studies posted on the net regarding vaccines, you have to be careful and check the source.
> 
> One such source is
> 
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> So you would, if they find you (or your child or grand child) has a rare form of cancer and the insurance will not cover the expensive or experimental drugs needed or experimental surgery.


Did you care so much a couple of years ago, when insurance companies did that routinely and had staffs whose job it was to find every possible way to deny treatment, experimental or not? When people lost their insurance because they had such pre-existing conditions as acne?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> So you would, if they find you (or your child or grand child) has a rare form of cancer and the insurance will not cover the expensive or experimental drugs needed or experimental surgery.


I said "who cares" in response to galinipper's statement of opinion not to anything that involved anyone's insurance. You know, that statement about never believing the government? Go read it again.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Please, vactruth is an organisation who are fiercely anti vaccine. You have to question their motives in publishing these articles.


Motives? And what do you think the motives of the drug companies are?


----------



## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> I said "who cares" in response to galinipper's statement of opinion not to anything that involved anyone's insurance. You know, that statement about never believing the government? Go read it again.


You go read it again, I said I didn't Trust the Government.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Motives? And what do you think the motives of the drug companies are?


To kill or at least injure as many children as they can?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

galinipper said:


> You go read it again, I said I didn't Trust the Government.


You don't trust the government, but you believe it?


----------



## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You don't trust the government, but you believe it?


I believe that there is a government, Trust would be to have confidence in it.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

I'm still laughing over word choice in this article


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

galinipper said:


> I believe that there is a government, Trust would be to have confidence in it.


I know what Trust means; but you implied that you believed the government, not believed *in* it.

This is the silliest game I've played in a long time.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> I'm still laughing over word choice in this article


Knowing Schumer, I think he may actually have said that. And did you notice how many times he got his name mentioned in that small bit of text?


----------



## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I know what Trust means; but you implied that you believed the government, not believed *in* it.
> 
> This is the silliest game I've played in a long time.


I didn't type 'believe' in my first post. You are making it silly. If someone wants to quote my post then quote it right.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

galinipper said:


> I didn't type 'believe' in my first post. You are making it silly. If someone wants to quote my post then quote it right.


I saw what you typed int your first post. Then you corrected CQ's "You know, that statement about never believing the government?" implying that you do sometimes believe the government.

I can make anything silly in 3 sentences. How about you?


----------



## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I saw what you typed int your first post. Then you corrected CQ's "You know, that statement about never believing the government?" implying that you do sometimes believe the government.
> 
> I can make anything silly in 3 sentences. How about you?


and you just did it again in 4 sentences.
goodnight PP.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I don't trust the drug manufacturers at all, but I also have problems with such websites as
> http://vactruth.com , The Vaccine Truth Newsletter, http://tv.naturalnews.com, http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/2013-measles-outbreak-failing-vaccine-not-failure-vaccin..., which all seem to have axes to grind.
> 
> There are reports by professionals who do the testing and write up the studies (that's something biology PhDs do if they're not teaching), and I'd prefer to see their results. But they're not so easy to find or to read using Google (or Bing). It's much easier to start with the result you want and do a search for it.


So? Even when an article is documented with footnotes and verifiable quotes from doctors and scientists, you won't read them because you don't like the website? Well, let me give you the quick rundown.

Last month, a CDC whistleblower (a senior scientist) revealed that the CDC DELIBERATELY withheld crucial evidence proving that the MMR vaccine caused Autism. But you wouldn't want to read about that because the pro vaccine sites didn't report it.

The same whistleblower also revealed that vaccinating pregnant women with vaccinations containing thimerisol (mercury), is known to cause children to suffer from tics after they are born.

Perhaps, you don't want to know that a scientist at Johns Hopkins, Peter Doshi PH. D., wrote an article published by the British Medical Journal saying that influenza vaccines are less effective and cause more side effects than alleged by the CDC. He also said that the studies the CDC relies upon are often low quality studies that do not substantiate the official claims. Apparently the British Medical Journal considered him a valid source but you didn't read or hear about it in the mainstream media. And I guess you limit yourself.

The TV. Natural News link contained a audio recording of Maurice Hilleman, a microbiologist who developed vaccines for Merck. In the recording, he discusses how he discovered SV40 a simian virus that causes cancer in humans,in Sabins polio vaccine. The seed stock for the polio vaccine contained SV40. Scientists argued for years whether this would cause cancer in humans. They continued to use contaminated tissue and years later, many many people have gotten cancer from it. They have actually found the SV 40 virus in people's tumors. Its not that they didn't know that SV40 caused cancer. They actually used SV40 to cause cancer in animals to conduct cancer research with. Here's an article that explains the SV40 virus.
http://www.sv40foundation.org/cpv-link.html

The GreenMed article was about the failure of the measles vaccine. It's a well documented article but you wouldn't read it because it wasn't a pro vaccine site.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> I'm still laughing over word choice in this article


That is both funny and ironic!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> There is no evidence whatsoever that vaccines are a causal link to any of the health issues you've outlined.
> 
> If there was, do you honestly think the government of the day would allow vaccines to continue to be given? Common sense just has to prevail here. I'm having a hard time wondering where it is you're coming from. :shock:


Dr Boyd Haley discusses how genetics affects an individual's ability to excrete mercury from the body. Some people have a genetic make up that does not excrete mercury and allows it to enter the brain through the cerebral spinal fluid. His discussion is centered on Alzheimer's but he talks about mercury entering the body from pharmaceuticals. So, all of these neurological impairments could be caused by mercury accumulating in the brain. He discusses very clearly why it doesn't affect everyone. It's short and very interesting.
http://vaccine-injury.info/boyd-haley.cfm


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I can't agree with you, Nebraska--modern vaccines are a blessing, and even if there was a slightly elevated risk of autism I'd still choose for my son to have the shots. I remember too clearly how ill my fourteen-year old brother became when he caught chicken pox, recall too my mother describing the polio epidemics of the 50s and how terrifying they were.


If your family had the neurological issues mine has, you might think differently.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So? Even when an article is documented with footnotes and verifiable quotes from doctors and scientists, you won't read them because you don't like the website? Well, let me give you the quick rundown.
> 
> Last month, a CDC whistleblower (a senior scientist) revealed that the CDC DELIBERATELY withheld crucial evidence proving that the MMR vaccine caused Autism. But you wouldn't want to read about that because the pro vaccine sites didn't report it.
> 
> ...


Actually, you've made them sound more interesting than I thought they would be. I may read them, or some of them, after all.

There remains the problem of whether the vaccines are worse than the diseases they prevent. Do any of your sources go into whether vaccines can be made safe?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Why? Would you like to contradict my statement with evidence? Apparently not! No official study has been conducted to compare vaccinated children to unvaccinated children. If you'd bothered reading the articles I linked, you would have seen a quote by Dr Colleen Boyle, the Director of the National Center on Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities at the CDC. She was quoted speaking to a congressional committee. She said, "We have not studied vaccinated vs unvaccinated.".


There are many, many studies comparing outcomes for both vaccinated and non vaccinated children after exposure to any given bug. Here's an example:

http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=study+vaccinated+vs+unvaccinated&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=ht4xVOexNYrg8AWq4IGgCA&ved=0CBwQgQMwAA

I googled 'study vaccinated vs unvaccinated' and many, many studies came up. It doesn't have to be U.S. official and even if it was, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have a bar of it!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Dr Boyd Haley discusses how genetics affects an individual's ability to excrete mercury from the body. Some people have a genetic make up that does not excrete mercury and allows it to enter the brain through the cerebral spinal fluid. His discussion is centered on Alzheimer's but he talks about mercury entering the body from pharmaceuticals. So, all of these neurological impairments could be caused by mercury accumulating in the brain. He discusses very clearly why it doesn't affect everyone. It's short and very interesting.
> http://vaccine-injury.info/boyd-haley.cfm


We ingest more mercury by eating fish and some do that on a regular basis.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> There are many, many studies comparing outcomes for both vaccinated and non vaccinated children after exposure to any given bug. Here's an example:
> 
> http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=study+vaccinated+vs+unvaccinated&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=ht4xVOexNYrg8AWq4IGgCA&ved=0CBwQgQMwAA
> 
> I googled 'study vaccinated vs unvaccinated' and many, many studies came up. It doesn't have to be U.S. official and even if it was, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have a bar of it!


So much for the claim that no such studies exist. I didn't think it would be so easy to find them, but there they are. Including one on the MMR vaccine.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> To kill or at least injure as many children as they can?


Haha! Try MONEY!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Actually, you've made them sound more interesting than I thought they would be. I may read them, or some of them, after all.
> 
> There remains the problem of whether the vaccines are worse than the diseases they prevent. Do any of your sources go into whether vaccines can be made safe?


I think that for people with a certain genetic make-up, they're not safe. I'm going to do more research on what Dr Boyd Haley was saying about individuals who can't excrete mercury and it therefore enters the brain. This makes more sense than anything else I've heard. It deserves more research.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Actually, you've made them sound more interesting than I thought they would be. I may read them, or some of them, after all.
> 
> There remains the problem of whether the vaccines are worse than the diseases they prevent. Do any of your sources go into whether vaccines can be made safe?


Can they be made safe? Maybe they're already safe for SOME. It comes down to the neurotoxins in the vaccines, Thimerisol (a preservative) and aluminum (an adjuvant). I don't know what else. Can they make vaccines without these, for people who need them or won't accept the others? They won't even look at it! They've got too much invested in telling everyone they're perfectly safe. They don't care about the kids who are damaged. They don't even want to know why.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> There are many, many studies comparing outcomes for both vaccinated and non vaccinated children after exposure to any given bug. Here's an example:
> 
> http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=study+vaccinated+vs+unvaccinated&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=ht4xVOexNYrg8AWq4IGgCA&ved=0CBwQgQMwAA
> 
> I googled 'study vaccinated vs unvaccinated' and many, many studies came up. It doesn't have to be U.S. official and even if it was, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have a bar of it!


I wasn't talking about what happened after exposure. I was talking about comparing the numbers of kids with Autism, ADHD, Asthma, Exzema, and all of the other things that barely existed fifty years ago. Studies were however conducted in New Zealand and Germany. Kids who were not vaccinated had far fewer of these and other diseases(?).

For most people, childhood diseases are an inconvenience, involving short term suffering. People love to bring up the minority who have complications. For most people, childhood vaccines are an inconvenience, involving short term suffering (the pain, swelling, fever). But nobody wants to talk about those who are injured from vaccines. From November of 1989 through January of 2013, the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Fund has paid out over $2.5 billion! These are vaccine injuries that they acknowledge! So it's nonsense to claim that vaccines don't do harm!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> We ingest more mercury by eating fish and some do that on a regular basis.


And those whose bodies can excrete that mercury, are fine. For others, that mercury ends up in their brains!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> So much for the claim that no such studies exist. I didn't think it would be so easy to find them, but there they are. Including one on the MMR vaccine.


Not so! She's citing studies comparing how people do after they're exposed. There are studies that compare vaccinated kids to unvaccinated kids, but NONE of them are official studies done by the drug companies or the CDC! They won't touch it!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Haha! Try MONEY!


Why couldn't they make money without doing harm? We're not talking about cigarettes here.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Can they be made safe? Maybe they're already safe for SOME. It comes down to the neurotoxins in the vaccines, Thimerisol (a preservative) and aluminum (an adjuvant). I don't know what else. Can they make vaccines without these, for people who need them or won't accept the others? They won't even look at it! They've got too much invested in telling everyone they're perfectly safe. They don't care about the kids who are damaged. They don't even want to know why.


That's quite a sweeping generalization, especially from someone whose education on the subject consists of internet sites.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> I'm still laughing over word choice in this article


Me too, Squirrel. And I needed that laugh.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> That's quite a sweeping generalization, especially from someone whose education on the subject consists of internet sites.


At least I'm TRYING to learn something new! I refuse to stay static!

I just watched the other video on this page. I'm asking everyone to PLEASE, PLEASE watch these two videos. Please tell me what you think, after you've watched these. I need to know!
http://vaccine-injury.info/boyd-haley.cfm


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

galinipper said:


> You go read it again, I said I didn't Trust the Government.


Well, the point was that I was responding to your post, not the lengthy Obamacare/insurance piece. You must believe me, I'm not an elected official or the media.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I wasn't talking about what happened after exposure. I was talking about comparing the numbers of kids with Autism, ADHD, Asthma, Exzema, and all of the other things that barely existed fifty years ago. Studies were however conducted in New Zealand and Germany. Kids who were not vaccinated had far fewer of these and other diseases(?).
> 
> For most people, childhood diseases are an inconvenience, involving short term suffering. People love to bring up the minority who have complications. For most people, childhood vaccines are an inconvenience, involving short term suffering (the pain, swelling, fever). But nobody wants to talk about those who are injured from vaccines. From November of 1989 through January of 2013, the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Fund has paid out over $2.5 billion! These are vaccine injuries that they acknowledge! So it's nonsense to claim that vaccines don't do harm!


There's a strong possibility that the 1918 flu pandemic - which killed between 20 and 50 million people worldwide - also caused Parkinson's Disease in survivors fifty years down the line. So diseases can cause neurological injuries as well, in addition to death.

There's no easy answer, unless you see only one side of the question.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> I'm still laughing over word choice in this article


Love it!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> There's a strong possibility that the 1918 flu pandemic - which killed between 20 and 50 million people worldwide - also caused Parkinson's Disease in survivors fifty years down the line. So diseases can cause neurological injuries as well, in addition to death.
> 
> There's no easy answer, unless you see only one side of the question.


Please! Just listen to what Dr Haley says and tell me what you think. Its very interesting. You won't get bored.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> At least I'm TRYING to learn something new! I refuse to stay static!
> 
> I just watched the other video on this page. I'm asking everyone to PLEASE, PLEASE watch these two videos. Please tell me what you think, after you've watched these. I need to know!
> http://vaccine-injury.info/boyd-haley.cfm


I watched them both, but I haven't the knowledge to judge. I think Boyd-Haley believes what he says, but I don't see how anything was proved. After all, the fact that he had never met an autistic before a certain date can easily be explained by the fact that children with autism tend to shy away from crowds, such as in classrooms, not to mention that his sample was pretty small. He was also kind of insulting to Offitt, though that shouldn't be a consideration. I simply don't know how to judge such a discussion, but I wasn't entirely convinced.

I would venture to suggest that autism went by other names before 1940, like mental retardation or other mental disabilities, not that it never existed before vaccines. (I harp on this because it was the only thing I understood well enough.)

Given that your statistics on the HPV vaccine were wrong, I wouldn't rush to judgment on that, either.

I also think that as far as I'm concerned, this conversation has run its course. If there's any more discussion, I will either be silly or absent.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I watched them both, but I haven't the knowledge to judge. I think Boyd-Haley believes what he says, but I don't see how anything was proved. After all, the fact that he had never met an autistic before a certain date can easily be explained by the fact that children with autism tend to shy away from crowds, such as in classrooms, not to mention that his sample was pretty small. He was also kind of insulting to Offitt, though that shouldn't be a consideration. I simply don't know how to judge such a discussion, but I wasn't entirely convinced.
> 
> I would venture to suggest that autism went by other names before 1940, like mental retardation or other mental disabilities, not that it never existed before vaccines. (I harp on this because it was the only thing I understood well enough.)
> 
> ...


Thank you, for your opinion!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Please! Just listen to what Dr Haley says and tell me what you think. Its very interesting. You won't get bored.


I told you, and I did get bored but I stayed with it. If the flu did indeed cause Parkinson's, I know which side I'd be on.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> If your family had the neurological issues mine has, you might think differently.


I'm so sorry for all the troubles that the vaccines cause your family. About 28 years ago my kids were getting their vaccines and I was scared to death back then. I just prayed that everything went well. My daughter had a very bad reaction to the MMR vaccine. When I was a kid I don't even know if we got vaccines for anything except for polio. I recall being in elementary school maybe first or second grade . Each class went to the nurses office and we took the vaccine on a sugar cube. I guess we got that other vaccines but the polio vaccine was the most memorable.A friend I've known for the past 10 years had polio as a child. It's not that obvious but she does have a limp and sometimes has to wear a leg brace. She's about 2 or 3 years older than me.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

SQM said:


> Me too, Squirrel. And I needed that laugh.


Lol. I emailed their news team and the article still there.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> I'm so sorry for all the troubles that the vaccines cause your family. About 28 years ago my kids were getting their vaccines and I was scared to death back then. I just prayed that everything went well. My daughter had a very bad reaction to the MMR vaccine. When I was a kid I don't even know if we got vaccines for anything except for polio. I recall being in elementary school maybe first or second grade . Each class went to the nurses office and we took the vaccine on a sugar cube. I guess we got that other vaccines but the polio vaccine was the most memorable.A friend I've known for the past 10 years had polio as a child. It's not that obvious but she does have a limp and sometimes has to wear a leg brace. She's about 2 or 3 years older than me.


Thank you! I don't know anything for a fact, but I'll keep looking. I think the day will come when they'll say we shouldn't be injecting neurotoxins into our baby's bodies. And we shouldn't be breathing, eating and drinking chemicals.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you! I don't know anything for a fact, but I'll keep looking. I think the day will come when they'll say we shouldn't be injecting neurotoxins into our baby's bodies. And we shouldn't be breathing, eating and drinking chemicals.


I hope what I say here comes out right  Have you ever listened to the talk show Coast to coast AM.? Of course I don't believe everything they talk about but they do bring up some good points/topics. I like to listen to the radio better than TV but the problem is their show comes on when I have to sleep. I signed up with the yearly membership and can go back for years and listen to older shows. and its Ad free. the whole point I mean is that there's plenty of times they talked about vaccines and toxins and GMO foods. Sometimes I think oh we're all doomed!!! I don't believe that everything is a conspiracy but I certainly believe there is the possibility of many conspiracies.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Have you ever figured out what changed you from being one who never questioned doctors into one who believes conspiracy theories? Did anything change in your life?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I did! Back then, I never questioned doctors. I've since learned that while they SAY vaccines are safe, it's never been proven. I also think that everyone is different. Some people can be exposed to toxins, with no effect, others not so lucky. When my father was diagnosed with Parkinson's, the doctors said that research showed that if a person carried a certain gene, AND was exposed to herbicides or pesticides, they would get the disease. When he was younger, he worked in my grandfather's nursery, spraying trees, wearing NO protective clothing because the Ortho chemical company assured them that it was perfectly safe!
> 
> Later, I had my fist child. Long labor but two pushes and he was out. He was born perfect! He had a perfect Apgar score! Perfect in every way! After his two month vaccines, he started holding his right hand in a fist and it seemed as if it were glued to his chest. For eight months, the pediatrician kept telling me he was fine. Finally, I found a new pediatrician. Everything was not fine! He was diagnosed with Cerebral Palsy. I asked how could that be? He'd been perfect! They said it was a catch all term for anything wrong with the brain. By this time, I'd heard the vaccine thing and asked the doctor. He said he wasn't sure but from then on out he gave my son the DT instead of the DPT.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> There is no evidence whatsoever that vaccines are a causal link to any of the health issues you've outlined.
> 
> If there was, do you honestly think the government of the day would allow vaccines to continue to be given? Common sense just has to prevail here. I'm having a hard time wondering where it is you're coming from. :shock:


Clue: We know it's not common sense.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

galinipper said:


> With-out committing more time than I am willing to give up to Obamacare/death panels and pretending like the progressives source for information is with-out bias, I can wrap it up in just a few words.
> I believe about 5% of what our elected officials say.
> I believe about 10% of what the media says.
> I don't trust the United States Government.
> There, that covers it.


And I don't care.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Why? Would you like to contradict my statement with evidence? Apparently not! No official study has been conducted to compare vaccinated children to unvaccinated children. If you'd bothered reading the articles I linked, you would have seen a quote by Dr Colleen Boyle, the Director of the National Center on Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities at the CDC. She was quoted speaking to a congressional committee. She said, "We have not studied vaccinated vs unvaccinated.".


Vaccines have saved many lives. Just look around. On the other hand, I don't expect you to allocate any good to them at all. Enjoy your paranoia.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Motives? And what do you think the motives of the drug companies are?


Profit.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I watched them both, but I haven't the knowledge to judge. I think Boyd-Haley believes what he says, but I don't see how anything was proved. After all, the fact that he had never met an autistic before a certain date can easily be explained by the fact that children with autism tend to shy away from crowds, such as in classrooms, not to mention that his sample was pretty small. He was also kind of insulting to Offitt, though that shouldn't be a consideration. I simply don't know how to judge such a discussion, but I wasn't entirely convinced.
> 
> I would venture to suggest that autism went by other names before 1940, like mental retardation or other mental disabilities, not that it never existed before vaccines. (I harp on this because it was the only thing I understood well enough.)
> 
> ...


I agree with you, I will also be either absent or silly. It is getting far to expensive to continue. It is costing me a fortune in band aids and bricklayers costs. Knocking your head against a brick wall also gives you a darned headache. Off to sip my soothing chamomile tea and have a quiet lie down.

Autism sufferers have always been with us but people were unaware that there were degrees of autism. They believed autism only had the one face, the severely disabled sufferer who was totally locked in their own world and spent their days screaming and either sat rocking back and forth or backing their heads into a wall. They were locked up in mental institutions where they were very heavily drugged. Autism is diagnosed at a much earlier age today and there are better treatment programmes available.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

ute4kp said:


> I hope what I say here comes out right  Have you ever listened to the talk show Coast to coast AM.? Of course I don't believe everything they talk about but they do bring up some good points/topics. I like to listen to the radio better than TV but the problem is their show comes on when I have to sleep. I signed up with the yearly membership and can go back for years and listen to older shows. and its Ad free. the whole point I mean is that there's plenty of times they talked about vaccines and toxins and GMO foods. Sometimes I think oh we're all doomed!!! I don't believe that everything is a conspiracy but I certainly believe there is the possibility of many conspiracies.


I can honestly say that I heard Coast to Coast one time. Years ago, we were hit by a heavy snow storm in October, before the leaves fell. The weight of the snow on the leaves brought trees down onto the power lines, all over the city and we had no electricity for 10 days. So all we had were battery operated radios. We came upon Coast to Coast and they were talking about UFOs. But now, the only time I listen to the radio is when I have the 70s station on, in my car. I'd check it out online, but I don't want to pay for it.

I agree that not everything is s conspiracy. But conspiracies abound. When corporations hire psychologists to direct their marketing and trick people into thinking they NEED a product, that's a conspiracy. When the add chemicals to the food to make it addictive, that's a conspiracy. When they pay politicians to pass favorable legislation, that's a conspiracy. Conspiracies have become so commonplace, that we've become inured to them. But there's also been a conspiracy to silence anyone who speaks out against them. Back in the 60s, the CIA coined the term "conspiracy theorist" to silence those who questioned the official explanation of Kennedy's assassination. Anyone who spoke out about anything became the object of ridicule. It's been very effective in silencing the masses. And if you want to hide a really big conspiracy, all you have to do is start rumors of some fake ones, so the people will think they're all fake.

It used to be a good thing to stand up and speak out. It's not anymore. Can you imagine if those who created the unions, were ridiculed when they stood up and said that there was a conspiracy to pay workers less? Or what about those who stood up for women's rights, were they conspiracy theorists? What if no one listened, for fear of ridicule? It used to be, that people could debate issues and either agree or not agree, not any longer. Those who debate outside the acceptable norms are ridiculed. The term "conspiracy theorist" was designed to control! It was designed to silence anyone who looks further than the mainstream media for answers. It's a conspiracy to get people to go along with anything.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Have you ever figured out what changed you from being one who never questioned doctors into one who believes conspiracy theories? Did anything change in your life?


Yes, I used to think that I was just unlucky. But at some point, I had to come to the conclusion that something else was going on. I believe in coincidence, but only up to a point. So I started researching. I used to check out books from the library and buy the ones I couldn't find. Every book I read, gave me another clue to follow. I've come to the conclusion, that it isn't just one thing. We've many assaults on our bodies. I've also come to the conclusion that the reason all are not affected, is genetics. I've also seen that people have been brainwashed into caring about the very few who suffer complications from childhood diseases, but to not care at all about those who suffer from complications of the vaccines. One is acceptable, the other is not.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Clue: We know it's not common sense.


There is no common sense anymore. People don't think for themselves. They're told what to think.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Vaccines have saved many lives. Just look around. On the other hand, I don't expect you to allocate any good to them at all. Enjoy your paranoia.


Instead of just repeating what you've heard, do some research. All of these diseases were already in decline before the vaccines were ever created. Ask yourself why we've had outbreaks of measles and pertussis in people who WERE vaccinated. Just stop believing everything you're told! Find out for yourself!


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Absolutely unbelievable. Diseases were not "in decline" before vaccinations were "ever created." Where do you possibly get "information" like that? And how were you so gullible as to believe it? As to the other, there can be different strains. 

As one who nearly died of three different diseases as a child, I wish that vaccinations for mumps, chicken pox and measles had been around then. It would have saved my mother a lot of terror and me a lot of suffering.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> Absolutely unbelievable. Diseases were not "in decline" before vaccinations were "ever created." Where do you possibly get "information" like that? And how were you so gullible as to believe it? As to the other, there can be different strains.
> 
> As one who nearly died of three different diseases as a child, I wish that vaccinations for mumps, chicken pox and measles had been around then. It would have saved my mother a lot of terror and me a lot of suffering.


The "decline" is rooted in a kernel of truth, primarily due to increased sanitation in the developed world. Of course, anti-vaxxers give this entirely too much weight because the potential for epidemics has always been there and still is. I don't think the decline was that significant.

It is well-documented that whooping cough vaccine wears off and does not confer 100% immunity for all. Which is why there are booster shots. Still no reason NOT to get the vaccine, because even partial protection helps reduce the severity of the disease and helps protect those too young to be vaccinated. The youngest are most at risk of death.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Absolutely unbelievable. Diseases were not "in decline" before vaccinations were "ever created." Where do you possibly get "information" like that? And how were you so gullible as to believe it? As to the other, there can be different strains.
> 
> As one who nearly died of three different diseases as a child, I wish that vaccinations for mumps, chicken pox and measles had been around then. It would have saved my mother a lot of terror and me a lot of suffering.


This is in a video KFN linked to of two doctors disagreeing about vaccines. The anti, Dr. Boyd-something claimed that measles was in decline before vaccines. He also claimed that there was no such thing as autism because he had never met an autistic in his one-room schoolhouse or in college. That is a very small sample indeed.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> This is in a video KFN linked to of two doctors disagreeing about vaccines. The anti, Dr. Boyd-something claimed that measles was in decline before vaccines. He also claimed that there was no such thing as autism because he had never met an autistic in his one-room schoolhouse or in college. That is a very small sample indeed.


Probably not statistically valid!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

So IS is now considered to be at the door of Europe as it's fight for the town of Kobane near the border of Turkey seems to be going their way:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2782308/Black-flag-ISIS-raised-outskirts-Syrian-border-town-amid-furious-fighting-jihadists-Kurds-Turkish-tanks-prepare-worst.html


----------



## Farmwoman (Jul 2, 2014)

DameMary- I have no idea what led to your hateful out burst, but want to share with you that it is not attractive, or kind, of you to spew such hatefulness. Maybe this isn't the place to air your God grievances? I wish you the best at finding a healthy outlet for your aggression, and care about your health & happiness, but please, don't use this forum for your personal target practice any more, Thanks!


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Farmwoman said:


> DameMary- I have no idea what led to your hateful out burst, but want to share with you that it is not attractive, or kind, of you to spew such hatefulness. Maybe this isn't the place to air your God grievances? I wish you the best at finding a healthy outlet for your aggression, and care about your health & happiness, but please, don't use this forum for your personal target practice any more, Thanks!


I honestly think you need to redirect your comments above to some others on KP. DameMary does not use the forum for personal target practice but I could name a few who do. I will not name them on the public forum as that would be libel but they know who they are and others also know who they are. Please wish these other nasty posters the best at finding a healthy outlet for their aggression and grievances.

:thumbdown:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Farmwoman said:


> DameMary- I have no idea what led to your hateful out burst, but want to share with you that it is not attractive, or kind, of you to spew such hatefulness. Maybe this isn't the place to air your God grievances? I wish you the best at finding a healthy outlet for your aggression, and care about your health & happiness, but please, don't use this forum for your personal target practice any more, Thanks!


You make this post without reference to the crime you attribute to Damemary. She is not a hateful person, rather, she considers carefully and then comments. Hateful? No. Intelligent and witty? Yes and Yes and Yes.

And there may be some who will trawl through my message history in an attempt to discredit what I've posted here but I have apologized to Damemary for my previous behaviour and she graciously accepted it.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Hi Farmwoman,

I don't think we have properly met. NIce to meet you. 

This is now the second thread that you have chastised others. This part of the forum tends to get heated as it seems like so far, you have chosen the tougher topics. If you are upset, please visit Denim and Pearls where your POV will be very welcome. Or else stick with Pictures where the most provocative response is " I love your All-In- One."

Nice to have met you.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

SQM said:


> Hi Farmwoman,
> 
> I don't think we have properly met. NIce to meet you.
> 
> ...


Really SQM? Now you're thread monitor?

Farmwoman's POV is very welcome on this and every thread she chooses to post to.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Hi Gers,

How are you? I am fine, fine.

Actually it was Farmwoman who is taking people to task. She sounded like she would be happier with your gang and elsewhere. All I want is for Farmwoman to be be happy.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

SQM said:


> Hi Gers,
> 
> How are you? I am fine, fine.
> 
> Actually it was Farmwoman who is taking people to task. She sounded like she would be happier with your gang and elsewhere. All I want is for Farmwoman to be be happy.


Sarcasm noted, SQM!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Gerslay said:


> Really SQM? Now you're thread monitor?
> 
> Farmwoman's POV is very welcome on this and every thread she chooses to post to.


I agree - Farmwoman is welcome to post, but if she chooses to do so, she should be prepared to endure the criticism she deserves for lurking in the background and then chastising damemary, for what, we do not know. If she wants to JOIN the discussion, great. Her post sounded holier-than-thou, coming from someone with a superiority complex. My guess is she'll hit and run because she has nothing of substance to contribute.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Farmwoman said:


> DameMary- I have no idea what led to your hateful out burst, but want to share with you that it is not attractive, or kind, of you to spew such hatefulness. Maybe this isn't the place to air your God grievances? I wish you the best at finding a healthy outlet for your aggression, and care about your health & happiness, but please, don't use this forum for your personal target practice any more, Thanks!


Dame Mary has been on this site since its inception. She is thoughtful, kind and does not usually, if ever say anything unkind. you, however, are unkind and seem to feel you have the right to Preach at her. She is highly thought of on KP, not just the Political forums. She is one of the nicest people I have met on KP.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Hi Farmwoman,
> 
> I don't think we have properly met. NIce to meet you.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: well said SQM


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> I'm so sorry for all the troubles that the vaccines cause your family. About 28 years ago my kids were getting their vaccines and I was scared to death back then. I just prayed that everything went well. My daughter had a very bad reaction to the MMR vaccine. When I was a kid I don't even know if we got vaccines for anything except for polio. I recall being in elementary school maybe first or second grade . Each class went to the nurses office and we took the vaccine on a sugar cube. I guess we got that other vaccines but the polio vaccine was the most memorable.A friend I've known for the past 10 years had polio as a child. It's not that obvious but she does have a limp and sometimes has to wear a leg brace. She's about 2 or 3 years older than me.


I think the polio vaccine changed both our countries. I had an uncle who had polio and was crippled his whole life. I have not seen anyone with polio for years and years and the vaccine is the reason in my opinion.

I hate to see people who automatically decide not to take different vaccines. If parents had kept their children up to date on the Measles vaccine there would be no measles - as up until a few years ago it was automatic to get the vaccine. 
We had a 'rash' of measles in Alberta a year or so ago and it was discovered that over 50% of the parents did not have their children vaccinated. those who weren't were the ones who got the measles. Those who had been vaccinated in the same schools didn't get it or if they did it was extremely mild.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Absolutely unbelievable. Diseases were not "in decline" before vaccinations were "ever created." Where do you possibly get "information" like that? And how were you so gullible as to believe it? As to the other, there can be different strains.
> 
> As one who nearly died of three different diseases as a child, I wish that vaccinations for mumps, chicken pox and measles had been around then. It would have saved my mother a lot of terror and me a lot of suffering.


 :thumbup:


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Really SQM? Now you're thread monitor?
> 
> Farmwoman's POV is very welcome on this and every thread she chooses to post to.


yes, and we are welcome to answer her post. She doesn't know Dame Mary. It works both ways.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Dame Mary has been on this site since its inception. She is thoughtful, kind and does not usually, if ever say anything unkind. you, however, are unkind and seem to feel you have the right to Preach at her. She is highly thought of on KP, not just the Political forums. She is one of the nicest people I have met on KP.


Hi, Designer. I see you're settled in, at least for the time being, and are back at work here, standing up for what's right (lower-case R).


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Farmwoman said:


> DameMary- I have no idea what led to your hateful out burst, but want to share with you that it is not attractive, or kind, of you to spew such hatefulness. Maybe this isn't the place to air your God grievances? I wish you the best at finding a healthy outlet for your aggression, and care about your health & happiness, but please, don't use this forum for your personal target practice any more, Thanks!


Hi Farmwoman, you'll find many of her friends use the same tactics to insult or berate those whose opinions they don't agree. It is the normal operating procedure and has always been their way for as long as I've been posting on this site. I, for one, am happy to hear from another voice; yours, that I haven't heard before.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Hi Farmwoman, you'll find many of her friends use the same tactics to insult of berate those whose opinions they don't agree. It is the normal operating procedure and has always been their way for as long as I've been posting on this site. I, for one, am happy to hear from another voice; yours, that I haven't heard before.


See Farmerwoman - I steered you in the right direction. Mrs. Gifts will clasp you to the bosoms of those on D and P. Plus Mrs. Gifts is very placid and would never stir any ugly pots. I am happy you found some nicer ladies.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Not so! She's citing studies comparing how people do after they're exposed. There are studies that compare vaccinated kids to unvaccinated kids, but NONE of them are official studies done by the drug companies or the CDC! They won't touch it!


who would know they were the truth if they did?

I was born in l931 - Polio, Measles, Hooping Cough, and many other diseases were killing children especially at that time. Then they discovered the use of Vaccines.

Since that time, most of those diseases have disappeared in North America, UNTIL those who decided the Health Care system was two faced and not truthful. Since then measles have come back and children in my Province have been faced with an epidemic. You will have a hard time convincing me that the vaccines didn't cause the reduction and disappearance of those diseases.

You are very definite in your opinions although you profess to 
being open minded -- I am strongly in favor of vaccines and am upset that my own children are questioning the results. My old GD did get the measles because she was not vaccinated, last year. She was very sick and was isolated in the hospital. Her brothers and sisters were isolated at home.

Polio is rarely if ever found here in North America - I have not heard of one case that I can think of since the 40's.

I have a higher opinion of doctors and health care researchers than some here. That is okay. All my opinions are based on my life experiences. I get my flue shot every year and haven't had the flue since I started getting them. My friends who decided not to in many cases have had the flue. That is just my own opinion but I stand by it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Really SQM? Now you're thread monitor?
> 
> Farmwoman's POV is very welcome on this and every thread she chooses to post to.


Her POV seems to be that she can tell other individuals what they shouldn't say on this or any other thread, and to get pretty nasty about it (note the word "spew"; I've never seen it used in a nice or helpful way). So SQM's response was in keeping with Farmwoman's POV. In fact, it was far gentler.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> See Farmerwoman - I steered you in the right direction. Mrs. Gifts will clasp you to the bosoms of those on D and P. Plus Mrs. Gifts is very placid and would never stir any ugly pots. I am happy you found some nicer ladies.


Thank you for your vote of confidence and complimentary opinion, SQM.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Hie everyone -- just to let you know we are back on line. It has been a very hectic move. our furniture was late arriving so we had to stay with our family for 9 extra days.

We are nearly settled in and it is great to be back on line.

I see that the topics have been interesting . I will have to catch up. Snow storm in Alberta- plus l8 C here and lovely. We really like Vancouver Island.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> See Farmerwoman - I steered you in the right direction. Mrs. Gifts will clasp you to the bosoms of those on D and P. Plus Mrs. Gifts is very placid and would never stir any ugly pots. I am happy you found some nicer ladies.


Would you like me to find you a sarcasm smiley? :roll: :roll:


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> You make this post without reference to the crime you attribute to Damemary. She is not a hateful person, rather, she considers carefully and then comments. Hateful? No. Intelligent and witty? Yes and Yes and Yes.
> 
> And there may be some who will trawl through my message history in an attempt to discredit what I've posted here but I have apologized to Damemary for my previous behaviour and she graciously accepted it.


I hope you've apologized to each and every Liberal and Dem poster you insulted and raked over the coals in your private e-mail communications to me when you claimed you were being grossly and unfairly attacked by them. I also love remembering how you said you were so shy and didn't feel free to post on particular threads because of the Libs who were always attacking you. Remember those e-mails? I do.

Seems you sway with the wind and say what others want to hear and are not true or truthful but just another Lib well versed in hypocrisy.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Hie everyone -- just to let you know we are back on line. It has been a very hectic move. our furniture was late arriving so we had to stay with our family for 9 extra days.
> 
> We are nearly settled in and it is great to be back on line.
> 
> I see that the topics have been interesting . I will have to catch up. Snow storm in Alberta- plus l8 C here and lovely. We really like Vancouver Island.


Welcome back to the Mean Ladies. I am not familiar with Canadian climate but I am assuming you moved from our midwest-like weather to Seattle-type climate. Glad it is over. Hope you find your yarn and needles easily.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I hope you've apologized to each and every Liberal and Dem poster you insulted and raked over the coals in your private e-mail communications to me when you claimed you were being grossly and unfairly attacked by them. I also love remembering how you said you were so shy and didn't feel free to post on particular threads because of the Libs who were always attacking you. Remember those e-mails? I do.
> 
> Seems you sway with the wind and say what others want to hear and are not true or truthful but just another versed in hypocrisy.


Always the milk of human kindness is our Mrs. Gifts.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Would you like me to find you a sarcasm smiley? :roll: :roll:


No. I would like a smiley heart laughing.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> Always the milk of human kindness is our Mrs. Gifts.


Thank you again, SQM. You are in high spirits today!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Instead of just repeating what you've heard, do some research. All of these diseases were already in decline before the vaccines were ever created. Ask yourself why we've had outbreaks of measles and pertussis in people who WERE vaccinated. Just stop believing everything you're told! Find out for yourself!


Must you always tell people how to do things? I know you are very strong in your opinions but you talk down to others including Dame who has been here for many years and has her own opinions. I think it would be much more productive if you would stop telling people what to do and instead suggest a different approach to them. I know after reading the posts while I was away - you sometimes sound as if you are brow beating who you are speaking to. I know you are very well versed and admire your courage to put your money where your mouth is (as my Dad used to say). But others have opinions that are different even though in many cases we agree with you. I personally disagree completely with your opinion on vaccinations. see my previous post. I don't need to be scolded for it or told to 'study'. I have lived my life and vaccinations started after I was born and an Uncle and cousin had polio and two of my other cousins died from measles and polio. So I do know from experience what I am talking about.
--
I hope things are going well with you and your family. Is your MIL doing well? I hope things have settled down for you.

We are finally moved - and just about finished settling in. Just my workroom left and it is very nice. We love it here and even though at our age it was difficult, we are here and we are glad.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Folks, please note that Farmwoman uses the word "spew" which we have seen some of our favorite RWNs use . I wonder whose alter-ego she is :?: :?: :?: :?:


Farmwoman said:


> DameMary- I have no idea what led to your hateful out burst, but want to share with you that it is not attractive, or kind, of you to spew such hatefulness. Maybe this isn't the place to air your God grievances? I wish you the best at finding a healthy outlet for your aggression, and care about your health & happiness, but please, don't use this forum for your personal target practice any more, Thanks!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I hope you've apologized to each and every Liberal and Dem poster you insulted and raked over the coals in your private e-mail communications to me when you claimed you were being grossly and unfairly attacked by them. I also love remembering how you said you were so shy and didn't feel free to post on particular threads because of the Libs who were always attacking you. Remember those e-mails? I do.
> 
> Seems you sway with the wind and say what others want to hear and are not true or truthful but just another Lib well versed in hypocrisy.


It is interesting that you are talking about pm's which are supposed to be private conversations and there is an unwritten rule that we don't say what was talked about or what was said. It doesn't surprise me that you don't follow that rule either. No one can stop you, but beware of private conversations with you. Thinking people can change their minds


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Always the milk of human kindness is our Mrs. Gifts.


I guess you don't need one; you do fine on your own. But here's something anyway:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> No. I would like a smiley heart laughing.


Is winking okay?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> No. I would like a smiley heart laughing.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

My PP can find anything. 

How about a suitable man for me? He can be smiling.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Hi Farmwoman, you'll find many of her friends use the same tactics to insult of berate those whose opinions they don't agree. It is the normal operating procedure and has always been their way for as long as I've been posting on this site. I, for one, am happy to hear from another voice; yours, that I haven't heard before.


=======
I am happy that you have found a kindred spirit who is willing to be as judgmental as you are. Farmwoman joined in without knowing Dame. You know her and still you insult us all.

Actually, what escapes you and the other people on the right {except for a few in D and P}. We are not like those in your group. We are 'libs' yes , we are also Christians, non Christians and some of us are not religious at all. We have different opinions on many things, we discuss - we sometimes don't agree with each other -- we try not to judge but it is very very hard when close minded, narrow, unkind, unChristian posts are posted by people who profess to be better than anyone else and who are narrow and rigid in their opinions-

You are a group who rarely disagree with anything each other says. { Except for one or two very nice people who have the courage to break away from your narrow ideas and meet us half way, in friendship. We never attack them because we feel they have the same rights we do, we THINK and we choose what we believe and how we want to live our lives-they do too and we respect that).Those who are not strong Christians rarely mention that, rarely join into the discussions. I wonder why? I have found out recently that there are some on your thread that are very right wing (their right) but are not Christians. Do they ever discuss that there? I doubt it.

Christianity has many faces in my experience -- the different Christian members never acknowledge differences - but you come here (3 or 4 of you) and Preach how superior you are. You haven't convinced me and you haven't convinced any of the rest of us. You never will. I grew up in a rigid Christian home full of hypocrites. I prefer to be able to make my own decisions. My Church is a good Christian Church but likely would not fit into your idea of a far right or fundamentalist Church. There are actually quite a few liberal people who care about others in my Church.

You are a person who doesn't hesitate to hurt, to attack and to demean others. I have no problem with taking you on when you talk about us as if we were not quite as bright, not quite as perfect, not quite as sure about how important we are as you .

I know you are pretty smart too, as I know that they all follow you because you are 'kind, and sweet, and talented, and all those good things when you talk to them. You come here and you are none of those things. So be it. You have a cruel streak which comes out quite often and it is so far from being a good Christian that it is unbelievable. Yet you act as if we are evil because we think. So insult away, hurt people all you can. I do not personally give you a pass for your unkindness so I will answer your posts when the mood strikes me as I am doing now. I won't, however go to your 'home' and attack you, and if you are ever kind I will applaud you, so why don't you surprise some of us and have a conversation rather than come and attack all the time? just a thought.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> My PP can find anything.
> 
> How about a suitable man for me? He can be smiling.


Anything in print, that is. How about


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Anything in print, that is. How about


Ha Ha Ha. I forgot to add that he must be Jewish. Try again.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Folks, please note that Farmwoman uses the word "spew" which we have seen some of our favorite RWNs use . I wonder whose alter-ego she is :?: :?: :?: :?:


Also the curiously passive-aggressive stance. How typically Christian of her.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Hie everyone -- just to let you know we are back on line. It has been a very hectic move. our furniture was late arriving so we had to stay with our family for 9 extra days.
> 
> We are nearly settled in and it is great to be back on line.
> 
> I see that the topics have been interesting . I will have to catch up. Snow storm in Alberta- plus l8 C here and lovely. We really like Vancouver Island.


It is lovely to see your posts again. I am pleased that your move was not too traumatic and you are settling in. I just could not contemplate moving house again, especially a long haul move.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Welcome back to the Mean Ladies. I am not familiar with Canadian climate but I am assuming you moved from our midwest-like weather to Seattle-type climate. Glad it is over. Hope you find your yarn and needles easily.


It is much like Seattle. Much less in the way of snow and bitter winters which is welcome. Lots of rain in the 2 - 2.5 months of 'winter' but the springs are spectacular, summers warm and autumn is beautiful. Much milder climate. I would rather put up with the dull days and rain, than --20 to -30 C temperatures with bitter winds and difficult driving. We lived in Vancouver (on the main land) for 9 years and I loved every moment. When it got dull for too long, I always thought, oh well, I don't have to shovel it!

We are getting well settled in and I am really happy we made it through the move which was challenging at our age. I have done nothing but work a little, nap, work a little and nap - first full night's sleep for months. I am a happy camper.

There was a huge snow fall before we left which just reminded us how much we wanted to come here. I am enjoying hearing about 5+ weather rather than the l8+ C here.

It was the right move for us. It is very beautiful on the Island. We will be touring around a lot next spring and summer.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Dame Mary has been on this site since its inception. She is thoughtful, kind and does not usually, if ever say anything unkind. you, however, are unkind and seem to feel you have the right to Preach at her. She is highly thought of on KP, not just the Political forums. She is one of the nicest people I have met on KP.


That's a good one Designer. Try rereading her posts. Damemary gives as good as she gets.

Before you get on my case for being mean to you, yours was the first post applying sainthood to Damemary that I came across. I was reading the thread from the end back to where I left off. I have since noticed all of your buddies were saying the same thing about Damemary, which as you are well aware, doesn't make it so. You (collective) have also said basically the same thing to and about Farmwoman without knowing her. So what does that say about all of you, other than you all know how to gang up on another person. It is so amusing to see you pick on another poster for doing the very same thing you all do. What a bunch of hypocrites.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> That's a good one Designer. Try rereading her posts. Damemary gives as good as she gets.


And cleverly. She's very astute and I enjoy her barbs and quips.

Farmlady was way out of bounds. Funny - we haven't heard any more from her. Perhaps she realized she was in over her head.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> And cleverly. She's very astute and I enjoy her barbs and quips.
> 
> Farmlady was way out of bounds. Funny - we haven't heard any more from her. Perhaps she realized she was in over her head.


No, she's the aka of an individual we're all familiar with. Trust me.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I hope you've apologized to each and every Liberal and Dem poster you insulted and raked over the coals in your private e-mail communications to me when you claimed you were being grossly and unfairly attacked by them. I also love remembering how you said you were so shy and didn't feel free to post on particular threads because of the Libs who were always attacking you. Remember those e-mails? I do.
> 
> Seems you sway with the wind and say what others want to hear and are not true or truthful but just another Lib well versed in hypocrisy.


To the piglet who calls people pigs! I don't care. Simple.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Unfortunately, IS seems to be on the verge of acquiring Kabone in Syria:

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/10/08/01/10/syria-border-town-about-to-fall-to-is


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> And cleverly. She's very astute and I enjoy her barbs and quips.
> 
> Farmlady was way out of bounds. Funny - we haven't heard any more from her. Perhaps she realized she was in over her head.


Yes Siree Bob! When the Roller Derby Girls go skating - get out of the rink unless you can keep up. Now if her name was Tribeca Loft she might have done better.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> =======
> I am happy that you have found a kindred spirit who is willing to be as judgmental as you are. Farmwoman joined in without knowing Dame. You know her and still you insult us all.
> 
> Actually, what escapes you and the other people on the right {except for a few in D and P}. We are not like those in your group. We are 'libs' yes , we are also Christians, non Christians and some of us are not religious at all. We have different opinions on many things, we discuss - we sometimes don't agree with each other -- we try not to judge but it is very very hard when close minded, narrow, unkind, unChristian posts are posted by people who profess to be better than anyone else and who are narrow and rigid in their opinions-
> ...


What do you call your lengthly diatribes if they are not attacks aimed at KPG? 
What is the purpose of your finger-pointing lectures?
What do you call your own behavior?
Do you think you dont insult people?
Do you think that you dont have a mean streak?
Do you really believe that you dont consider yourself superior?

You are blind to the demeaning remarks that are consistently made towards D & P as individuals and in general.

You are obsessed with KPG. She cannot make a post on these threads without you jumping all over her. I can almost hear you cackle with glee as you go on and on, ad nauseam, over and over, repeating yourself endlessly. Good grief, woman, dont you have enough on your plate?

Point of correction: KPG did not mention PMsshe said Private Emails.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

DGreen said:


> And cleverly. She's very astute and I enjoy her barbs and quips.
> 
> Farmlady was way out of bounds. Funny - we haven't heard any more from her. Perhaps she realized she was in over her head.


We probably won't hear from her anymore now that she's found out what its like to be given 40 lashes from the oh so tolerant liberals on this site.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> That's a good one Designer. Try rereading her posts. Damemary gives as good as she gets.
> 
> Before you get on my case for being mean to you, yours was the first post applying sainthood to Damemary that I came across. I was reading the thread from the end back to where I left off. I have since noticed all of your buddies were saying the same thing about Damemary, which as you are well aware, doesn't make it so. You (collective) have also said basically the same thing to and about Farmwoman without knowing her. So what does that say about all of you, other than you all know how to gang up on another person. It is so amusing to see you pick on another poster for doing the very same thing you all do. What a bunch of hypocrites.


I have never said she is a Saint. She is however a decent, kind person - I was not talking about you. I was answering KPG's post. Hypocrites are in the eyes of the beholder I guess. You never miss an opportunity to get into my conversations. And, as something I didn't call you on before, you said my workshops had nothing to do with me not coming here that much. How would you know that? As a matter of fact, they were the main reason as I worked about 6 hours a day on them, finding teachers, setting up schedules etc. and being involved with the actual classes. Yes, I said i got tired of the nastiness. However I have been on here since I put the workshops to rest until I decide whether to go back to them. If and when I do I won't be here as much. that is a fact. So please don't say you know my reasons for anything I say or do. You don't.

You love to jump all over me - and I don't mind - but get your facts straight. One of the main reasons I was tired of the nastiness then was because I was tired from doing the workshops and I found it impossible to keep up with both. As they were something very positive and often these threads are very negative I chose them. YOu put words in my mouth and told me my reasons when you don't know what you are talking about.

You don't know me - you don't like me and the feeling is mutual. So carry on with your superior posts, they are par for the course.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> To the piglet who calls people pigs! I don't care. Simple.


Piglets are small and cute. Boars are big; sows are big and female. Apologize to the piglets!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Seems you sway with the wind and say what others want to hear and are not true or truthful but just another Lib well versed in hypocrisy.





Wombatnomore said:


> To the piglet who calls people pigs! I don't care. Simple.


Oops, I could have made it more simple; you are a liar. There; now no need to ask you to prove your words.

Perhaps I should just share everything you've said about your (now) Liberal friends because you don't care. No comparison or offensive to cute piglets.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> What do you call your lengthly diatribes if they are not attacks aimed at KPG?
> What is the purpose of your finger-pointing lectures?
> What do you call your own behavior?
> Do you think you dont insult people?
> ...


Thank you Gerslay. She is obsessed with me and struggling. Best to leave her to herself with her all-consuming hatred and ignore her as I do. She has lost all credibility because of her repeated insults and unsolicited attacks to others and simply cannot control herself or at least her words (evident by reading her prior posts).


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Thank you Gerslay. She is obsessed with me and struggling. Best to leave her to herself with her all-consuming hatred and ignore her as I do. She has lost all credibility because of her repeated insults and unsolicited attacks to others and simply cannot control herself or at least her words (it's evident by reading her prior posts).


I am embarrassed for her.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I am embarrassed for her.


I would be, but I've asked her to stop on a few occasions. She could but refuses. Her choice, and yes, her great loss. Why anyone would choose to harbor such hatred for no logical reason is beyond my understanding.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Piglets are small and cute. Boars are big; sows are big and female. Apologize to the piglets!


 :XD: You are so right! Will do.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Oops, I could have made it more simple; you are a liar. There; now no need to ask you to prove your words.
> 
> Perhaps I should just share everything you've said about your (now) Liberal friends because you don't care. No comparison or offensive to cute piglets.


Seems like the word "liar" is our worst insult. Now that is the least of my sins. I think we should up the stakes and come up with a harsher word. The one who comes up with an insult that is better than "liar" wins tonight's point. I will give the first suggestion:

Fatty


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Oops, I could have made it more simple; you are a liar. There; now no need to ask you to prove your words.
> 
> Perhaps I should just share everything you've said about your (now) Liberal friends because you don't care. No comparison or offensive to cute piglets.


Do it, don't do it. But I've got to say you are a low, base and ugly human being.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Thank you Gerslay. She is obsessed with me and struggling. Best to leave her to herself with her all-consuming hatred and ignore her as I do. She has lost all credibility because of her repeated insults and unsolicited attacks to others and simply cannot control herself or at least her words (evident by reading her prior posts).


Credibility? You talk about credibility? You wouldn't know it if it hit you in the face. Shut your mouth.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Seems like the word "liar" is our worst insult. Now that is the least of my sins. I think we should up the stakes and come up with a harsher word. The one who comes up with an insult that is better than "liar" wins tonight's point. I will give the first suggestion:
> 
> Fatty


Lummox


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Thank you Gerslay. She is obsessed with me and struggling. Best to leave her to herself with her all-consuming hatred and ignore her as I do. She has lost all credibility because of her repeated insults and unsolicited attacks to others and simply cannot control herself or at least her words (evident by reading her prior posts).


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

oops


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Seems like the word "liar" is our worst insult. Now that is the least of my sins. I think we should up the stakes and come up with a harsher word. The one who comes up with an insult that is better than "liar" wins tonight's point. I will give the first suggestion:
> 
> Fatty


Swinish.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


>


Oh boy -- obsessed??? you have to be kidding. I have absolutely no respect for you.

I give you back what you hand out - I just express my feelings for the posts you make that attack others and the insults to all of us including all 'libs' on this thread. So stop that and you won't hear from me again. You won't get a reply if you ever played nice. Or maybe I would applaud you? who knows.

CB your post was noted. I suppose you agree with her telling one of my friends I need to be examined for alzheimers when everyone on these thread know my sister is slowly leaving all of us with that same disease? And that it was the first day she never knew me when I called her??


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Swinish.


unkind although I like swinish.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


>


Wow you sure are ignoring me with your comments to Gerslay. :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> unkind although I like swinish.


Wasn't being unkind the point of the exercise? How about "porcine"?


----------



## admin (Jan 12, 2011)

This is an automated notice.

This topic was split up because it reached high page count.
Please feel free to continue the conversation in the new topic that was automatically created here:

http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-291268-1.html

Sorry for any inconvenience.


----------

