# Selling items you make from pattern books



## mishawetterling (Mar 23, 2011)

what are your thoughts on this? I mean...why have dozens or even hundreds of knitting books and not be able to see what you make from them? how many knitted items can your family and friends really not mind getting from you over the years?

I've been struggling with this topic for years. I have all these fabulous and challenging patterns, and everyone person in my family has several things I've knitted. why not sell the rest I make? can anyone shed some light on this for me? i'm getting really frustrated. this is all in light of Lionbrand.com letting us make and sell for our own money ANYTHING from their website.


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## Poledra65 (Jul 6, 2011)

I agree, it seems a little crazy to me, now if the pattern creator was making the item themselves for sale, or if you wanted to mass produce an item you got from another source, I could understand it, but really, how much are you going to make off that one pattern, probably not nearly what the creator is making by selling the pattern, or at least I hope not. I think it should be acceptable to make and sell a small number of items from a given pattern, certainly not hundreds or anything, but at least a few. 
But this topic of copywrite has been covered more than enough probably so no sense stirring it all up again. 
And I guess when we start writting our own patterns and selling them, maybe we'll have a different point of view.


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## hennie (Mar 28, 2011)

I tend to (in the main) only buy the patterns which do allow me to sell. I email the designer, where possible, if they don't mention selling.
I have had only a few designers refuse me, however I am selling to raise funds for epilepsy research via our sons memorial fund, so I think this is probably why most give me permission.


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## mishawetterling (Mar 23, 2011)

I fully intend to allow my patterns to be purchased, made, and then sold as a finished item as long as it isn't mass produced in any way. cuz I don't want other people to have the problem I'm having of all these books and nothing to do with them once my family has everything from them


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## hennie (Mar 28, 2011)

Although I (Like most knitters I suppose) make up my own patterns all the time, I have only written up one for other people, that one I gave away freely, and said on it, to use as you see fit.


My thinking is if a knitter buys a pattern.. GREAT..
a non knitter isnt going to buy the pattern anyway so the designer won't be losing a sale, there was never going to be one off that particular person anyway, so let the knitter get some benefit from the pattern too. 

Does that make sense lol


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## mishawetterling (Mar 23, 2011)

totally makes sense...and I agree. so I might start contacting designers and asking if I can sell their stuff.


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## hennie (Mar 28, 2011)

What have you got to lose?? nothing??
Good luck


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## mishawetterling (Mar 23, 2011)

well, not nothing really...I don't want some crazy designer looking for me on etsy and then suing me


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## hennie (Mar 28, 2011)

Well if they say you can't sell...Dont sell online!! I doubt someone in another country is going to come and see if you have anything from their patterns for sale at your local craft fayre lol


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## tintin63 (Apr 18, 2011)

mishawetterling said:


> well, not nothing really...I don't want some crazy designer looking for me on etsy and then suing me


Well I wouldn't use the same name or e-mail that links you to etsy then they can't trace it back. It is only a general query after all.


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## DianneWoodis (Apr 6, 2011)

so what if you just change something in the pattern to make it your own. if you follow it exact, I can see, but if you change something, it is no longer that exact pattern.


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## cathy47 (Jun 6, 2011)

The copywright laws are a pain. I do embroidery also and you have to be careful with that also. And these days there is someone out there to sink your boat fast. Thats why most times I just give away items. Disney is one that always have people out looking for copies being sold. But I agree why share the patterns if we can't go and sell them. Needless to say does the copywirght laws cover someone else taking items given to them and then they sell them?


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## Araciel (Apr 2, 2011)

Not long ago there was a similar discussion on this site about selling intems, I remember someone saying, as long as you change 25% of the pattern you can sell the product for profit, I would be very careful about who I sell, and specially the name of the pattern or designer.


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## rolyn63 (Jul 18, 2011)

Peoline said:


> Not long ago there was a similar discussion on this site about selling intems, I remember someone saying, as long as you change 25% of the pattern you can sell the product for profit, I would be very careful about who I sell, and specially the name of the pattern or designer.


I missed that in the other post, but thank you for putting it here. I did figure that if a certain amount of the pattern has been changed it would no longer be the exact pattern that was purchased, so it should be ok. Now I know how much. I usually do change close to half of the pattern, at least after I'm comfortable with it. 
I have found that I have a bit of a problem. 3-4 yrs ago I purchased some "Stitches" books from Amazon - ones that were published in the 70's and 80's. I spent countless hours reading them and learning new stitches. Well, I "designed" what began as a dish/wash cloth pattern and then I did a few small rugs and an afghan with it. And now, I have found that Lion Brand has a pattern (free) that is very much like what I came up with. {the diagonal baby blankets that have 3 sts as a border} I did the 3 myself cuz I do many things using 3 or 5, we have 3 kids so there are 5 members in the family. I do dec differnetly, but cuz that is the ONLY difference, I won't be able to sell any of the afghans that I make like that online.  Oh well, I guess that - once again - I did not kow how wise I really am. {My older sis and I said a number of yrs ago that they needed to come up with a way to put coffee in a bag like they did tea. Some yrs later, "they" did....lol}
WAIT... didn't someone post that LB allows the selling of the made items now?? hhmmm I will have to double check that... hehehehehe

One thing I don't like about doing the "Quote Reply" - you can't re-read all posts while you are replying.


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## silvercharms (Mar 29, 2011)

I used to worry about this too, but I decided that people who put patterns out to the public must expect this. I don't think it is reasonable to expect a pattern to be kept for individual use only; it IS reasonable to have copyright on the pattern itself and not sell it. 
There is no copyright on IDEAS, so I expect if you change the pattern to your liking that will be super-safe.
I too am hoping to sell on etsy, and I intended to give credit to the pattern author, but now I am not so sure - it so quickly identifies you to any 'mad designer' about. So the pattern writer loses out, because of the unreasonableness of others. 
Now where has that ever happened before? Haha.


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## Leonora (Apr 22, 2011)

Those of you who are intending to sell garments that you have made from purchased patterns, just keep in mind the following:- DO NOT KNIT THE GARMENT IN THE SAME BRAND YARN, AND COLOURWAYS, THAT IT IS DEPICTED, ON THE PATTERN FRONT PAGE, THIS IS CLASSED AS COPYRIGHT MATERIAL ALSO. Do it in any other colourway that you wish, using the brand yarn if that is what you would prefer to do, and you are fine to sell, as long as you don't mass produce.


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## procrastin8or (Jul 1, 2011)

I thought copyright laws only protected the pattern - not what was made from the pattern. 

If you buy a pattern, what you make from it is YOURS. The products you used to make that pattern (yarn, needles, buttons, etc.) have no copyright. What you DO with that pattern - sell it, give it as a gift, donate to charity - is of no concern to the pattern maker. It in no way takes away any profit from the pattern maker.

I've never understood how a designer or pattern maker can dictate that you can sell the PRODUCT; the pattern yes, but not the result of your labor!

I'm not a lawyer. JMHO


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## LilgirlCA (Jan 22, 2011)

rolyn63 said:


> Peoline said:
> 
> 
> > Not long ago there was a similar discussion on this site about selling intems, I remember someone saying, as long as you change 25% of the pattern you can sell the product for profit, I would be very careful about who I sell, and specially the name of the pattern or designer.
> ...


If you designed it and made it once before Lion Brand showed it on their website and can prove it, then you should be safe selling it. There are not that many ideas in the world that several people won't come up with similar ones. Document when you created your design and then go for it.

Most will send you a cease and desist letter if they think you are violating their rules - not necessarily Disney but most designers - before filing a law suit. If you respond politely with your documentation, that should be enough. If not, you can always take down the items from your sales venue.


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## LilgirlCA (Jan 22, 2011)

Peoline said:


> Not long ago there was a similar discussion on this site about selling intems, I remember someone saying, as long as you change 25% of the pattern you can sell the product for profit, I would be very careful about who I sell, and specially the name of the pattern or designer.


This may not be enough as the idea of derived from the pattern is still there and is often enough to create a problem. I would not rely on taking a pattern and changing some portion to protect me. An overzealous lawyer could still cause a problem.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

I am a designer. Copyright law can cover EVERY aspect or limited aspects. For instance:

1) "All rights reserved," means just that. You can knit it for yourself or as a gift, but you cannot SELL the product. It is on the design, NOT THE YARN USED. For the most part, designers really don't care about the yarn used.

2) "It's free, you can make copies of the pattern, but not sell the pattern." If you have this, try to contact the designer. They might let you sell the product, especially for not-for-profit.

3) "You may not sell the product." I think that says it.

A woman is being taken to court now in England for the violation of #1. She sold the sweater on ebay. The designer bought it!

As a designer, if I saw someone sell the PRODUCT, I would be thrilled. Someone else may see it and want to make it. But, if I saw someone giving away or selling my PATTERN, I would sue, in a cold heart beat.


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## procrastin8or (Jul 1, 2011)

WOW! I had no idea, StitchDesigner, that copyright covered all that. Thanks for setting me straight.


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## Leonora (Apr 22, 2011)

I stand corrected by stitchdesigner. I was led to believe as long as you didn't copy the design using the same yarn and colourways, that you could sell the garment. I was wrong, sorry for giving wrong information. Leonora.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

rolyn63 said:


> Well, I "designed" what began as a dish/wash cloth pattern and then I did a few small rugs and an afghan with it. And now, I have found that Lion Brand has a pattern (free) that is very much like what I came up with. {the diagonal baby blankets that have 3 sts as a border} I did the 3 myself cuz I do many things using 3 or 5, we have 3 kids so there are 5 members in the family. I do dec differnetly, but cuz that is the ONLY difference, I won't be able to sell any of the afghans that I make like that online.  Oh well, I guess that - once again - I did not kow how wise I really am. {My older sis and I said a number of yrs ago that they needed to come up with a way to put coffee in a bag like they did tea. Some yrs later, "they" did....lol}
> WAIT... didn't someone post that LB allows the selling of the made items now?? hhmmm I will have to double check that... hehehehehe
> 
> One thing I don't like about doing the "Quote Reply" - you can't re-read all posts while you are replying.


The diagonal dishcloth, shawl, blanket is a knitting staple. In fact, that's the very pattern my Grandma used AT THE TURN of the 20th century to knit dishcloths. LB uses is to showcase a yarn. If you call it by the exact name on the LB site, they might be able to nail you for something, but I have seen patterns for Garter stitch straight dishcloths. Do these people really believe that a Garter stitch swatch is copyrightable?


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## kctaxlady (Jun 5, 2011)

Well, how about this . . . the copywritten PATTERN belongs to the designer or publisher and cannot be copied and distributed by you. however, the publication of a pattern implies the right to USE it, but not mass produce it. so, if you make a quilt from a pattern, the finished product belongs to YOU (because it contains your workmanship, fabric choice, etc) and you can give it away or sell it. what you can't do is mass produce from a pattern using an industrial process because that right is not implied when a pattern is published.

my question is, what about traditional patterns like log cabin quilts or pineapple doilies?. i have seen the same crochet motifs reproduced in pattern books for years. are they in the public domain?


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## G-Linda (Aug 15, 2011)

Even though the pattern is copywritted, here in the US it is legal to make and sell items using these patterns. It doesn't matter if the pattern says you can't, you can. Go for it and don't think twice about it. ps: Don't waste your money paying extra for patterns that "allow this" unless you live outside of the US.


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## 12773 (Mar 21, 2011)

Are all you kidding me? I maintain that one should be free to sell anything they wish for as much as they want. Caveat emptor. Are there knitting police who will come to your home and haul away your "stash"? Fortunately (?) my knitting isn't professional enough to sell. It's just good enough to give as gifts to annoying relatives.


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## Dreamweaver (Feb 1, 2011)

I don't think my way of thinking is actually the letter of the law, BUT.... if a pattern is in a magazine, book, leaflet, I feel that I should be able to make it and sell it. I have no way of knowing (in many instances) who the designer is or how to contact. I am selling my time and talent in creating the item. Stitches are public domain, yarn can be purchased by anyone. Some designers say that their pattern can be sold for charity only. Some allow selling for profit. Some say nothing. Weaving patterns as well. The pattern design is not patented, As stated by someone else, most people who would buy a handcarfted item from a knitter/weaver do not do the craft themselves, so there is no lost sale of pattern, Also, it is possible for more than one person to put together the same arrangement of stitches. i.e. invent the same pattern - so I think we should be able to sell our work.

I also embroider and know that Disney is UBER protective of their copyrights and I respect that - but I think I should be able to make a hat and sell it. How hard is it to create a hat... I'm sure a thousand people have designed the same plain hat. 

I'm sure I'm not within the law entirely in my opinion, but this is how I think it SHOULD be.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

silvercharms said:


> I used to worry about this too, but I decided that people who put patterns out to the public must expect this. I don't think it is reasonable to expect a pattern to be kept for individual use only; it IS reasonable to have copyright on the pattern itself and not sell it.
> There is no copyright on IDEAS, so I expect if you change the pattern to your liking that will be super-safe.
> I too am hoping to sell on etsy, and I intended to give credit to the pattern author, but now I am not so sure - it so quickly identifies you to any 'mad designer' about. So the pattern writer loses out, because of the unreasonableness of others.
> Now where has that ever happened before? Haha.


If there is no copyright on IDEAS, then why are novels, music, lithographs, etc. copyrighted? They are called by the courts "intellectual property". And ONLY the copyright owner has say-so over how they can be "disbursed." Most copyrights are "All Rights Reserved," and as I said before, it means just that.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

Traditional PATTERNS , like pineapple, log cabin, or lone star quilts are in the public domain. So is the diagonal dishcloth/afghan pattern. In those cases, unless the pattern says "free," you CANNOT even mass produce and give the printed pattern away (you can give away one as a gift). There is a copyright (correct spelling, it's a Right) on the printed work. Yes, on the printed work, the publishing. And it applys to magazines, leaflets, pamphlets, websites, any medium. 

If you think you know the law and want to risk selling on Ebay or etsy, be my guest. You can do jail time AND pay a huge fine. Just to make $10 over the price of yarn.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

This issue has always caused "contentious" discussion. I design patterns and market them.

Personally I do not care if someone sells items they craft from my patterns, though not all designers are in agreement on this.

Somehow "feelings" always end up being aired when this topic comes up, with phases like: I think...I feel. Please remember how YOU feel has nothing to do with copyright. Your opinions will not stand up in court. It's rather like speeding, the speed limit is 65 and if you feel or think you should be able to go 75, you are still going to get a ticket and end up in court.


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## dijewe (Mar 1, 2011)

I deal with copyrights in the graphic design world but it pretty much works the same way. 

When you buy a pattern, you only buy a 'license' to use it, you don't buy the pattern itself. So if you knit stuff from the pattern and sell it, you really should credit the designer. 

Designers want exposure because they do this stuff for a living, so the more people credit their work, the more recogniction they get and the more they can make a living ; who wants to steal food out the mouths of a poor starving artist, right?

If everyone just complied to this, artists ( knitwear designers) wouldn't have to make a living sueing people who 'steal' their designs and make it their own for profit.


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## judithw1 (Mar 8, 2011)

I am a rug hooker and we have had many of the same discussions. If the pattern/product/painting was made before 1920, it is in the public domain and can be copied and sold. We had person come to one of the meetings and give us the information.


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## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

If the lion brand pattern is newer than your work and you can show that you have been doing it since before the pattern came out you will be OK. And if you have kept all your scribblings as you worked it out you also be OK. Basically you need to be able to show the pattern did not come from them but that you designed it.



rolyn63 said:


> Peoline said:
> 
> 
> > I have found that I have a bit of a problem. 3-4 yrs ago I purchased some "Stitches" books from Amazon - ones that were published in the 70's and 80's. I spent countless hours reading them and learning new stitches. Well, I "designed" what began as a dish/wash cloth pattern and then I did a few small rugs and an afghan with it. And now, I have found that Lion Brand has a pattern (free) that is very much like what I came up with. {the diagonal baby blankets that have 3 sts as a border} I did the 3 myself cuz I do many things using 3 or 5, we have 3 kids so there are 5 members in the family. I do dec differnetly, but cuz that is the ONLY difference, I won't be able to sell any of the afghans that I make like that online.  Oh well, I guess that - once again - I did not kow how wise I really am. {My older sis and I said a number of yrs ago that they needed to come up with a way to put coffee in a bag like they did tea. Some yrs later, "they" did....lol}
> ...


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## ICE (May 4, 2011)

cathy47 said:


> The copywright laws are a pain. I do embroidery also and you have to be careful with that also. And these days there is someone out there to sink your boat fast. Thats why most times I just give away items. Disney is one that always have people out looking for copies being sold. But I agree why share the patterns if we can't go and sell them. Needless to say does the copywirght laws cover someone else taking items given to them and then they sell them?


My husband and I had an Embroidery Business. We "did" many gymnastics meets in Florida. Disney people are around in DROVES. They look, they buy, they SUE YOU....
Never had it happen to us personally, but have seen it happen to other merchants...
Face it, it is the BIG companies who have the time and the money to spent. The more they have the more they want.
Stick to your own designs. Most times they will be much more original.
ICE in NJ
ps. Our experience with Disney was that they published several of our designs as theirs. Advise from lawyer: Don't even think about suing them, they bury you in paper work and you will spend more money than you ever can recoup! They have a WHOLE division of Lawyers whom specialize in these Copy rights!
Whew, thanks for letting me vent. LOng overdue


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Part of copywrite law has to do with intellectual property. This comes up very often in institutions that employ outside contractors to do program design, for example. It is always a negotiated (or should be) item in contracts with people who are savvy.

However, we humans read, observe, take in and process lots of visual stimulus. If we put our ideas together in a pattern, it is ours. As others pointed out in this discussion, there are not that many new ideas in the world--only how we put them together. 

I called one yarn co recently about a pattern problem I was having. In that conversation I asked about selling product from their patterns and was told to go for it to my heart's content--no qualifications on use. Some designers feel quite differently but usually they just want recognition. If I had a blog and put out an item I made, I would think any distinct influence I had should be credited. So we see all the time a craftperson sharing a pattern but giving credit to someone for their technique or stitch pattern or other idea they used in putting together their design. 

If selling at a craft fair or privately, this type of crediting is just about impossible. Today, ruffle scarves seem to be popular (at least on KP). You can read a dozen patterns on ruffle scarves. They all follow a particular format for construction. The idea of a ruffle scarf belongs to no one as far as I can tell. Learning how to do them and creating one of your own would not trample copywrite law as far as I can tell. Just do not copy someone else's artistic rendition of one of these and call it your own design. That feels dishonest to me.


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## alonalena (Jun 23, 2011)

I think when you buy a pattern or a book you already paid the designer in that way, so I agree with another person who said once it is public you can do with it what you want


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## dijewe (Mar 1, 2011)

You DO NOT buy a pattern, you only buy a license to use it.


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## thisthat (Aug 10, 2011)

Since when can't we sell items that we make whether or not we use a pattern from a book? I have sold many items that I have made over the years usually at Arts and Crafts shows or by word of mouth when someone needs a nice gift. Is there a law against it?! I guess if you alter one stitch or row, you have changed the pattern from the book!!!!


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

dwernars said:


> You DO NOT buy a pattern, you only buy a license to use it.


Exactly! That's why they are COPY RIGHT laws! You cannot COPY the pattern, you do not have the RIGHT!


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## Smargit (Apr 2, 2011)

G-Linda -- Do you have information that verifies that in the US? Seems like such a controversial subject and surely everyone in the US would like to know if they have no concern over selling items made from copyrighted patterns. Thanks.


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## Sewvirgo (Jul 27, 2011)

Don't take a chance on getting sued. Whether you win or lose is not even important unless you have unlimited funds to keep paying lawyers for the fight. My quilt guild spent thousands just trying to settle with a pattern designer when we used 2 of her applique flowers on a raffle quilt. We had given her credit on our website and even posted the link to her other patterns. The final settlement was only a small fraction of the total cost of the suit.


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## thisthat (Aug 10, 2011)

How many of you are going to join me in jail for selling something we have made using a pattern from a [email protected] I inherited many knitting books from my mother and a lot of the information was missing so I would have no idea where the patterns came from but they are the old and tried and true patterns from years ago. Is there a legal notation on these patterns that they are covered by a copyright? I guess maybe I should look more carefully but I have never noticed one. It's hard enough to find out how many yards and how many strings are in some of the yarn let along tp find any legal wordings!!!!!


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## Becky O (Aug 10, 2011)

Peoline said:


> Not long ago there was a similar discussion on this site about selling intems, I remember someone saying, as long as you change 25% of the pattern you can sell the product for profit, I would be very careful about who I sell, and specially the name of the pattern or designer.


I dont have this problem with x-st. Somehow with every pattern I manage to get it off count ,but it still looks similar to the original. If these companies dont want anyone to sell their patterns then they shouldnt sell their patterns to do. If you paid for the pattern it should belong to you. :?: Somebody always wants to spoil our fun dont they?


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## Bobbie9 (Apr 14, 2011)

mishawetterling said:


> what are your thoughts on this? I mean...why have dozens or even hundreds of knitting books and not be able to see what you make from them? how many knitted items can your family and friends really not mind getting from you over the years?
> 
> I've been struggling with this topic for years. I have all these fabulous and challenging patterns, and everyone person in my family has several things I've knitted. why not sell the rest I make? can anyone shed some light on this for me? i'm getting really frustrated. this is all in light of Lionbrand.com letting us make and sell for our own money ANYTHING from their website.


You may generally sell anything you make from a pattern as long as you don't use a photo copied from a website or book to sell your stuff.Take your own photos. You also cannot sell the pattern. 
If you need more info on this - you may google "can I sell what I make from copyrighted patterns"


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

Becky O said:


> Peoline said:
> 
> 
> > Not long ago there was a similar discussion on this site about selling intems, I remember someone saying, as long as you change 25% of the pattern you can sell the product for profit, I would be very careful about who I sell, and specially the name of the pattern or designer.
> ...


So you don't have a problem stealing someone else's mental and physical labor. Hmm...


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## AuntKnitty (Apr 10, 2011)

Don't get involved with copyright infringement! Unless it's CLEARLY stated that you can sell the item, assume that you CANNOT. The designer designed this to make money, not so others can make money off her work. 

That being said, many designers DO give permission to sell the knitted item, but not the pattern. Even if you have a pattern that you would like to use with no specific instructions, write to the designer FIRST to ask what her policy is. Then keep a copy of that permission filed away just in case. In my experience, many designers have been amenable with attribution. I've also run into designers who have told me that I can reproduce this item a limited number of times. 

Do not assume that just because you bought a pattern or even got it for free, that you can make it freely to sell. The legal system takes copyright infringement VERY seriously and it could get quite costly for you if you are caught.


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## ICE (May 4, 2011)

Dreamweaver said:


> I don't think my way of thinking is actually the letter of the law, BUT.... if a pattern is in a magazine, book, leaflet, I feel that I should be able to make it and sell it. I have no way of knowing (in many instances) who the designer is or how to contact. I am selling my time and talent in creating the item. Stitches are public domain, yarn can be purchased by anyone. Some designers say that their pattern can be sold for charity only. Some allow selling for profit. Some say nothing. Weaving patterns as well. The pattern design is not patented, As stated by someone else, most people who would buy a handcarfted item from a knitter/weaver do not do the craft themselves, so there is no lost sale of pattern, Also, it is possible for more than one person to put together the same arrangement of stitches. i.e. invent the same pattern - so I think we should be able to sell our work.
> 
> I also embroider and know that Disney is UBER protective of their copyrights and I respect that - but I think I should be able to make a hat and sell it. How hard is it to create a hat... I'm sure a thousand people have designed the same plain hat.
> 
> I'm sure I'm not within the law entirely in my opinion, but this is how I think it SHOULD be.


Yes! We too "know" about Disney's UBER protection. But they go scout everyone else and openly STEAL other peoples designs (as they did with many of our designs, which showed up in various places!) and unfortunately we did NOT have the money to battle them. We know it is not fair, but they can because they are Disney!
ICE in NJ


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## merren (Apr 7, 2011)

I have made so many dolls and teadies that I usually give them to Ronald McDonald house.I usually save a few for baby gift as well .Now so many people have told me to sel thm ????


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## c2cAROL (Jul 31, 2011)

Wow, this is all news to me, being I am new to knitting, is what you are all saying right,If you make a hat, from a pattern, you can not sell it?I have been to many markets, when some one will be set up selling all hand knit articals,so, she can not do this?Unless she made up her own pattern? Am I hearing this right?


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## beachgirlfi (Aug 10, 2011)

I make knit and crocheted items and sell them at craft shows. Many of the patterns I adapt, some I do not. However, I don't think that you should 'share' the pattern with others. This is where the designer is making their money. Also, I've always been told that it is only necessary to change 10% of the original, not 25%.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Once again people are trying to put their "feelings" into copyright and what they THINK copyright means. More rumor and innuendo cited.

If you don't like the constraints that copyright carries, I suggest you design your own patterns, problem solved! Then we designers won't have to deal with people who think or feel they can do whatever they want with our creative property.

Have a nice day.


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## jltrask (Feb 18, 2011)

If you come up with the pattern on your own, even if it resembles someone else's pattern, I think you can sell it. Basic stitches can't be copyrighted, and you can put them together however you want. It might be different if you are copying someone else's pattern and claiming to have made it up yourself - but I suppose someone would have to prove it.


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## AuntKnitty (Apr 10, 2011)

There are at least three big copyright cases I can think of where the court ruled that a 10% difference was not enough to constitute an original pattern. 

Really, making your own designs is not difficult. A hat is a hat is a hat. If you've made several hats then you have a sens of how they are constructed. Swatch your yarn, figure for an average head size of 21", do some simple math. Come up with your own basic pattern. then learn a bunch of new stitches. You can add bands of interesting stitches, you can add bobbles every few rows, you can make eyelets or lace or what have you! it's not rocket science!

The same goes for scarves, dishcloths, slippers, shawls, again whatever! This summer, I designed a new piece of cool/cold weather wear. I love shawls, but hate fussing with them all the time...so I solved that problem in an easy and fast way. Everyone who seen it loves it and right now I have orders for about 8 of them! I don't even have a name for it yet but people want one anyway. i can now take this pattern and add cables, panels of fancy stitches, I can do all over lace and I don't have to worry about stepping on anyone else's toes.

Here's the other thing that I do, like with the shawl thingy, I write out the pattern in my handwriting, with all my notes, then print out a copy on my puter, date it all, put it all in a document envelope and send it to myself with a note on the envelope about what pattern this is. When I get it, I file it unopened. If ever there were a copyright issue, I've got proof.


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## Sorlenna (Feb 17, 2011)

c2cAROL said:


> Wow, this is all news to me, being I am new to knitting, is what you are all saying right,If you make a hat, from a pattern, you can not sell it?I have been to many markets, when some one will be set up selling all hand knit articals,so, she can not do this?Unless she made up her own pattern? Am I hearing this right?


Read the pattern text carefully; many will say you can sell what you make from the pattern, but some say please don't. My personal take on it is this: if I write a pattern, that is my work, but what you make from it is YOUR work. That is, you can do whatever you like with the items you make using my pattern. If you buy the pattern from me and then proceed to copy it and give it away or sell it yourself, that's wrong. But if you make a million bucks selling the *items* you made using the pattern, I'm happy for you (and it's always nice to say who the pattern maker is, too)!

Personally, I LOVE seeing what people make from my patterns and hope that any sales help them fund their yarn addictions (or pay the electric bill...I've been there, too)!

Not all designers feel this way, however, so always read all the text from a pattern to see what their wishes are. I think that most of the time, selling in a small local show isn't really the issue; it is those people who will either sell dozens of the same item without giving credit (or worse, claim it as their own design--I've seen that happen) who create problems.


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## msusanc (Apr 5, 2011)

One thing I don't like about doing the "Quote Reply" - you can't re-read all posts while you are replying.[/quote]

You can use the "delete" function to erase everything except that which you are replying to. See?

On another note, I wonder if more designers would be willing to have garments/items sold if they were given credit for the design on a label? Sort of like in writing, quoting someone and using footnotes.


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## Dcsmith77 (Apr 18, 2011)

Disney does not even let the United States Post Office use their characters without paying for the use. They are ruthless. Not such a good example for kids, huh! However, they get millions from producing their own products and they are a business. If you don't like it don't go to their movies or their theme parks. No one would miss them. They started the licensing of these "characters" and now many estates of dead celebrities have done the same thing.

I wonder, however, if you make something, sell it for charity and don't get anything personal from it, does that break the copyright law? Even the copyright laws for books allow you to short quotes from the book, so perhaps you could use just a portion of the pattern?


ICE said:


> cathy47 said:
> 
> 
> > The copywright laws are a pain. I do embroidery also and you have to be careful with that also. And these days there is someone out there to sink your boat fast. Thats why most times I just give away items. Disney is one that always have people out looking for copies being sold. But I agree why share the patterns if we can't go and sell them. Needless to say does the copywirght laws cover someone else taking items given to them and then they sell them?
> ...


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Selling items, be it at a small local show or in mass quantities over the internet, using a pattern that states you cannot is still copyright infringement. The size, scope or location of the infringement does NOT matter.

To state otherwise is to say, lying a little is OK, or stealing a little is acceptable, a little infidelity isn't bad, and a small murder is perfectly fine!

Diminishing a wrong by saying it's acceptable to do on a small scale...wrong is still wrong.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

With copyright laws one has to be very careful. I agree with Courier on this one. Every country has different copyright laws for everything (not just knitting or crafting). It is absolutely best to push aside the "I thought this,,,," or "I thought that..." and talk to a lawyer. Most law offices will give you a freebie if you ask a general question such as, "I bought this knitting pattern. It is made by..... It has a copyright indication on it. What are my rights about this pattern?" People who assume they can change 25% of the pattern and claim it as their own may in fact be totally wrong. This was also covered on another topic here at KP. Safest thing to do is ask a lawyer in your own country. Different designers also have different copyright expectations. One thing you can not do is make the knitted items and then sell them commercially unless the pattern clearly states that you can do so.


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## jltrask (Feb 18, 2011)

For books, the copyright is usually in the front few pages of the book. And for magazines can vary, but there's usually a page that states their copyright policy. I think, if you can find a way, you should probably ask permission to sell what you make from someones published pattern.

On the other hand, many of the patterns are intended to be made as gifts, and I don't see much difference between making something for yourself, or having someone else pay you to make a pattern they like. I've paid a seamstress take a commercial (butterick/simplicity, etc.) sewing pattern and make a dress for me. Is it any different to make something that way than to make it and sell it to whoever wants it?


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## msusanc (Apr 5, 2011)

The diagonal dishcloth, shawl, blanket is a knitting staple. In fact, that's the very pattern my Grandma used AT THE TURN of the 20th century to knit dishcloths. patterns for Garter stitch straight dishcloths. Do these people really believe that a Garter stitch swatch is copyrightable?[/quote]

Yes, I'd say that diagonal dishcloth is in the "public domain" now -- no one knows who designed it and everyone makes it. Even "Knitting for Dummies" uses that design for teaching. So it's probably fair game to knit and sell.

One other confusion with copyright is that whether or not you are selling/making money is irrelevant. For example, a church that buys one copy of a piece of choir music and then copies it to give to all the choir members, is breaking copyright law. A church in our town got the "cease and desist" letter for that infringement.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

mishawetterling said:


> what are your thoughts on this? I mean...why have dozens or even hundreds of knitting books and not be able to see what you make from them? how many knitted items can your family and friends really not mind getting from you over the years?
> 
> I've been struggling with this topic for years. I have all these fabulous and challenging patterns, and everyone person in my family has several things I've knitted. why not sell the rest I make? can anyone shed some light on this for me? i'm getting really frustrated. this is all in light of Lionbrand.com letting us make and sell for our own money ANYTHING from their website.


Totally wrong on this one. You did not read their copyright agreement that you made when you registered for the Lion Brand Yarn website. In case you missed it, (and you did, sorry) I am reposting it here for you and anyone else to read. Please pay particular attention to the last sentence of their paragraph:

3.Copyright: All material on this site is protected by copyrights. Unauthorized copying, reproduction, republishing, posting, or duplicating of any of the material is prohibited. The Lion Brand Yarn site contains copyrighted material, trade secrets, and other proprietary software and documentation. You may not decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, or otherwise reduce the software to a human-perceivable form. You may not modify, rent, lease, loan, sell, distribute, or create derivative works based on Lion Brand Yarn in whole or in part.

This is taken directly from the Lion Brand Yarn website.


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## darowil (Apr 17, 2011)

Maybe sewing dresses from bought patterns is actually wrong too? And what about selling cakes and slices at school and church fetes when using a recipe?


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## silvercharms (Mar 29, 2011)

StitchDesigner said:


> silvercharms said:
> 
> 
> > I used to worry about this too, but I decided that people who put patterns out to the public must expect this. I don't think it is reasonable to expect a pattern to be kept for individual use only; it IS reasonable to have copyright on the pattern itself and not sell it.
> ...


There is no copyright on ideas at least here in the UK unless you patent them. The 'ideas' are ways of making things - like the Dyson vacuum cleaner. 
Written items like novels etc are copyrighted and if you can prove plagiarism (very difficult in itself) you have legal redress. But this is dependent on the use of the actual words, images, notes, not on taking the idea behind them and fashioning your own version. This applies, I think to all copyright issues.
I appreciate the very hard work that goes into designing a pattern, but once that pattern has been sold, the usual copyright laws apply. No-one can copy out and resell the pattern.
It is difficult to see how any copyright issues can apply to the using of the pattern to make the designed item which is then either used , given away or sold.
If there wasn't so much confusion about copyright, then I'm sure most sellers would be more than happy to credit the pattern designer, which in turn provides the designer with more publicity.


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## msusanc (Apr 5, 2011)

Face it, it is the BIG companies who have the time and the money to spent. The more they have the more they want.
Whew, thanks for letting me vent. LOng overdue[/quote]

Good to vent now and then -- that must REALLY be galling if they are using your designs, and you're right about it being too expensive to sue because they will Bury you.

But it's not just "the more they have the more they want". If they become aware of a copyright infringement, no matter how small the scale, the law requires that they protect it -- or they will lose it. That's why you see so many "David and Goliath" cases.

From a retired lawyer. One of the good ones


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## msusanc (Apr 5, 2011)

thisthat said:


> Since when can't we sell items that we make whether or not we use a pattern from a book? I have sold many items that I have made over the years usually at Arts and Crafts shows or by word of mouth when someone needs a nice gift. Is there a law against it?!
> 
> 
> > Yes, it's called copyright law.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

"Template" patterns (such as sewing patterns are not covered by copyright as are knitting/crochet patterns.

As for Disney, why lambaste them for protecting their trademarked property? They are a large corporation with employees to compensate (pay and benefits) and stock holders to answer to. 

Perhaps YOU could live without their theme parks but I doubt putting thousands of people out of work in this economy is anything one should wish for.

The "they and them" of big companies are the little folks who happen to work for them. You know, people like everyone else with bills to pay, families to feed, retirements to save for.


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## Ronie (Jan 21, 2011)

I don't have time this morning to read all 5 (as of now) pages of replys.. but I think if you BUY the pattern its yours.. you should be able to do what you want with it... I know designers don't agree.. and there are 2 sides of this quandry... but again if you own it you should be able to sell what you make from it.. Where the designer should stand firm is the giving away or selling of their PATTERN not what we put our hard earned money and time into... plus we all knit differently with simular results and the designer doesn't have a copywrite on that..


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## msusanc (Apr 5, 2011)

AuntKnitty said:


> Here's the other thing that I do, like with the shawl thingy, I write out the pattern in my handwriting, with all my notes, then print out a copy on my puter, date it all, put it all in a document envelope and send it to myself with a note on the envelope about what pattern this is. When I get it, I file it unopened. If ever there were a copyright issue, I've got proof.


Wise Woman!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Once again, what you think or feel is not law. I AM a designer. Please take the time to actually read up on copyright. Take a moment of time to realize that designers are real people like everyone else.


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## msusanc (Apr 5, 2011)

Bobbie9
You may generally sell anything you make from a pattern as long as you don't use a photo copied from a website or book to sell your stuff.Take your own photos. You also cannot sell the pattern.
If you need more info on this - you may google "can I sell what I make from copyrighted patterns"[/quote said:


> Don't believe everything you read on the Internet. Intellectual property lawyers spend years learning all the nuances of the very complicated body of laws.
> 
> What you apparently found on Google sounds more like a way to avoid getting caught than to properly follow the law.


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## msusanc (Apr 5, 2011)

Ronie said:


> I don't have time this morning to read all 5 (as of now) pages of replys.. but I think if you BUY the pattern its yours.. you should be able to do what you want with it... I know designers don't agree.. and there are 2 sides ..


Well, actually, there aren't two sides to this quandary -- just the legal one. The other are opinions and feelings which count for nothing if you're caught infringing on the law.

But you're right about the time thing -- none of us has time for this long discussion. If you do, go to law school. If you don't, consult a lawyer who specializes in copyright. But please don't steal just because you think it's 
okay.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Exactly msusanc! Some people will always find a way to either justify their actions or a way to beat the system. Sadly the same people would scream bloody murder if someone were to do the same to them.

I'm a firm believer in "you get what you give in life". The "Everything I needed to know in life I learned in Kindergarten" is a great set of rules to live by.


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## MissP (Mar 1, 2011)

How does copyright law work if you have made a design from a pattern, in order to sell the items, as in a toy animal, and then changed it to another animal, with the same properties, or accessories? 
Would crediting the designer, or contacting the designer first, to let them know they inspired you be appropriate?
I am writing a children's story, and wish to attach a tiny animal form the story to the book, to sell on Etsy on my gift site. Rozetoilegifts.
Thank you all for discussing this. I learn so much.


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## c2cAROL (Jul 31, 2011)

I just bought a skain of yarn, there is a pattern on the back of the lable,I do not see any thing pertaining to making the item and selling it.Should it not be there if they do not want you to make it and sell it?


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Miss P, I suggest you read up on copyright to find out for yourself. So many "myths" and "mistruths" have cropped up in these discussions you'd be well advised to research the subject.

c2cAROL, go to the yarn companies website and see if the pattern is there too and what the website states about their patterns.

It's already been cited here that Lion Brand clearly states their stance, on their site.


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## c2cAROL (Jul 31, 2011)

Thank you, boy, this is all new.Who ever would have thought.


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## Mrs. Mac (Feb 10, 2011)

procrastin8or said:


> I thought copyright laws only protected the pattern - not what was made from the pattern.
> 
> If you buy a pattern, what you make from it is YOURS. The products you used to make that pattern (yarn, needles, buttons, etc.) have no copyright. What you DO with that pattern - sell it, give it as a gift, donate to charity - is of no concern to the pattern maker. It in no way takes away any profit from the pattern maker.
> 
> ...


What a great signature line, from Einstein!Thanks,.


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## msusanc (Apr 5, 2011)

c2cAROL said:


> I just bought a skain of yarn, there is a pattern on the back of the lable,I do not see any thing pertaining to making the item and selling it.Should it not be there if they do not want you to make it and sell it?


Making it even more confusing, there is an implied copyright even if you don't see that little "c" symbol. Always better to ask permission first -- asking forgiveness after is not so easy!

And as noted in a previous post (Courier?) the yarn manufacturer's website will probably have the info you want.


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## Mrs. Mac (Feb 10, 2011)

msusanc said:


> The diagonal dishcloth, shawl, blanket is a knitting staple. In fact, that's the very pattern my Grandma used AT THE TURN of the 20th century to knit dishcloths. patterns for Garter stitch straight dishcloths. Do these people really believe that a Garter stitch swatch is copyrightable?


Yes, I'd say that diagonal dishcloth is in the "public domain" now -- no one knows who designed it and everyone makes it. Even "Knitting for Dummies" uses that design for teaching. So it's probably fair game to knit and sell.

One other confusion with copyright is that whether or not you are selling/making money is irrelevant. For example, a church that buys one copy of a piece of choir music and then copies it to give to all the choir members, is breaking copyright law. A church in our town got the "cease and desist" letter for that infringement.[/quote]

Such good observations. Where are all of these"Copyright police," anyway? has anyone out there been taken to court over selling something they hand made from a pattern? I wonder.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

I have to agree with Courier's mantra here: the law is the law is the law! If you want to bend the law, or even side-step it, you need to be very clear with yourself that is what you are doing and their are legal risks involved, however small they may seem in one's personal situation.

The ethical question has to do with your personal values and standards in life.

Without making any judgements on anyone else's choices, this is the reality, pure and simple. You can call LB, or any other source, about using their pattern(s) and see what they say. If you use their patterns, then know what your choice is about on all levels.


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## Mrs. Mac (Feb 10, 2011)

Mrs. Mac said:


> msusanc said:
> 
> 
> > The diagonal dishcloth, shawl, blanket is a knitting staple. In fact, that's the very pattern my Grandma used AT THE TURN of the 20th century to knit dishcloths. patterns for Garter stitch straight dishcloths. Do these people really believe that a Garter stitch swatch is copyrightable?
> ...


Such good observations. Where are all of these"Copyright police," anyway? has anyone out there been taken to court over selling something they hand made from a pattern? I wonder.[/quote]

Mrs. Mac here, just to avoid confusion, the last paragraph about copyright police is mine, and i see it posted to someone else's piece. Have no idea why,or how to correct it.


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## Bethany (Feb 25, 2011)

i agree with the person that said to change something on the pattern or maybe even add a little flower or something. plus how will anyone know you sold it ?


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## MizNoOne (Aug 17, 2011)

Hello Everyone!
Here is something I think you might be interested in reading! It's an article titled "Patterns and how they are affected by copyright law". This might answer some of your questions and alleviate some of your fears. It's very worthwhile to read -- It sure surprised me!
http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml


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## jltrask (Feb 18, 2011)

Our church has a license to copy most music for congregational use. There are exceptions, and some music states clearly that the LLC license does not apply. The license does not give you permission to copy for choir use, only congregational. The license gives permission to type out words and print them or show them on an overhead projector, or copy the music and do the same. We have to pay each year for the license to do this. Even if the music doesn't have a copyright, you are obligated to check to check if there is one. At least for music, there are databases that can help.
While the laws aren't necessarily the same for patterns, there are some correlations. It can be confusing. Ignorance is not an excuse. Asking permission is the best way to be sure you aren't infringing on anyone's rights. You should at least try - and if in doubt, maybe you can try a different pattern or design your own. There are tons of patterns out there with no copyright issues.


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## jltrask (Feb 18, 2011)

MizNoOne said:


> Hello Everyone!
> Here is something I think you might be interested in reading! It's an article titled "Patterns and how they are affected by copyright law". This might answer some of your questions and alleviate some of your fears. It's very worthwhile to read -- It sure surprised me!
> http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml


Check out tabberone's disclaimer page. They might be right-on with their advice, but like a lot of internet information, double check it for yourself. As they say, please don't assume their advice is completely accurate. There have been recent changes to these laws. There are government sites with accurate copyright information - if you can understand it. Legalese is a whole different language!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Mrs. Mac...one's conscience is all that is needed. "Self policing" is a term that comes to mind. What's with this "Copyright Police" comment, that keeps showing up? Nasty commentary about copyright police really is uncalled for.

As a designer, I have the law on my side when it comes to my creative property. 

In this modern age of the internet and email it only takes a few seconds to ask for permission. Wouldn't that be more polite than throwing around nasty comments?

Copyright is serious business as is trademarking.


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## Chava (Jul 7, 2011)

I am 78 and, among other things, have a variety of memory and recall problems. At some point I will finish knitting a baby sweater I started 6 years ago. I have made maybe 40 of these sweaters over the years, with practically no variations, out of my mind mostly. I have photos of babies who are now up to 55 years old, wearing that same sweater. I saw the original botany pattern book on a vintage site, but have no money to buy it. It will show the same sweater. Was I in copyright violation? I see patterns certainly derived from patterns in that book, on Lion and Ravlry and other places, and now covered by "copyright." Furthermore, Disney has taken many beloved images that remain in my mind, distorted them, stamped and branded them and copywritten them! How can I get Wind in the Willows, Peter Rabbit, the original Oz ilustrations etc, back. How dare they take the iconography of my childhood and my parents' childhood, shape them in their own images and then "copyright" it. I spent my time as my children and friend's children were growing up trying to escape the Disney image in clothing, books, toys and decoration. It was very difficult. 

As I review designs--I have been working with the leaf variations--using patterns, photos, some of them yours, and ultimately I will put something together which I will believe is out of my own mind, But sometimes I am indeed out of my own mind. What if it duplicates exactly what someone else has done or dreamt of? Or close enough. Should I produce nothing? Should I get someone to research what I know? I've just gotten together literally 1000s of vintage patterns in pdf files in order to recover the images I had before. All of this stuff is prior to 1900. People are taking this stuff and placing a copyright on it.

I used to do lace and cable knitting out of mind or from a previous object but I lose focus and now laboriously follow a written pattern, and often get it wrong.

If I make scrubbies can I sell them?

I have forgotten my thread of thought and willl go back to working on my swatches. Love you all.


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## Smargit (Apr 2, 2011)

It appears, at least in the US, that one can make an item from a pattern and sell it. What you can't do is copy the pattern and resell the pattern. See the following: http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/knitting-pattern-copyright-108115.html


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## jltrask (Feb 18, 2011)

I have forgotten my thread of thought amd go back to working on my swatches. Love you all.[/quote]

LOL! I forget my thread of thought all the time! Sometimes that's a good thing for those around me! Usually it's frustrating to me.

Thanks for all the postings. It's good to see issues from many perspectives. Happy knitting, everyone!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

No one is "taking" anything and copyrighting it! I don't understand this hatred of Disney. It's a company that many people depend on for their livelihoods - you know, the employees!

The company I work for has had to engage in legal action a few times to protect our trademark. They pay me well for my job, provide me with excellent benefits and a safe work environment. Yes it's a very large corporation that employs hundreds of thousands across the globe. Those hundreds of thousands..are little guys like myself, just regular people.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

Mrs. Mac said:


> msusanc said:
> 
> 
> > The diagonal dishcloth, shawl, blanket is a knitting staple. In fact, that's the very pattern my Grandma used AT THE TURN of the 20th century to knit dishcloths. patterns for Garter stitch straight dishcloths. Do these people really believe that a Garter stitch swatch is copyrightable?
> ...


Such good observations. Where are all of these"Copyright police," anyway? has anyone out there been taken to court over selling something they hand made from a pattern? I wonder.[/quote]

You ask where the "copyright police" are and wonder if anyone has ever been taken to court over this issue of making and selling an item. The answer is "yes". There was a woman who knitted a sweater and advertised it for sale and sold it. The one who designed the sweater and held the copyright for it took her to court and won. This was in the UK and happened this past spring. This was the topic for another forum here on KP. You think it cant happen to you because so many people do this and are able to get away with it without being caught. But some do get caught, and then the world can see what kind of reputation that person now has. Think to yourself, "is this something that I am willing to risk?" Better to know the law in your own country before starting out on this venture.

As far as "copyright police" yes, there are these people but they are not called that. Companies do hire people to keep an eye on copyright violations.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

And just to throw another monkey wrench into this discussion. There are people who print their patterns online and claim they are copyrighted, but are not. I was told that when I published a pattern here on KP that I should have written that it was copyrighted. It was my first attempt to write a pattern for people I do not know, but shared it gladly. Did not even think to say that I should get credit for the pattern!


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## bellelynn (May 20, 2011)

http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml

Copyright laws on patterns are different that on books, and other things. Patterns are sold for you to make something. I would do my own research, then decide if it is worth maybe being sued. Disney makes fabric that you can sew using someones pattern. They have lost in court. They are selling a usable product. Colleges did the same thing had their logos put on fabrics. I would do my own research and then do what you feel best. Most companies will send a cease and desist letter before taking you to court.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

bellelynn said:


> http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml
> 
> Copyright laws on patterns are different that on books, and other things. Patterns are sold for you to make something. I would do my own research, then decide if it is worth maybe being sued. Disney makes fabric that you can sew using someones pattern. They have lost in court. They are selling a usable product. Colleges did the same thing had their logos put on fabrics. I would do my own research and then do what you feel best. Most companies will send a cease and desist letter before taking you to court.


Please note to all people who are readers of this forum topic, this applies ONLY to the USA. I also copied and pasted below, an interesting thing I found reading this article. Most noteably this article is regarding SEWING patterns.

"The purchaser, that being you, buys the pattern for a fixed amount of money. It is now yours and the manufacturer no longer has any legal control over what you do with the pattern, however, even if the pattern is not copyrightable, you should not 
Make copies of the pattern to either sell or give away 
Post a copy of the pattern on the internet for others to use 
Modify the pattern slightly and sell it as your own creation

The reason we say the above, even though the federal law allows otherwise, you could run afoul of state laws concerning unfair business practices."


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## gsbyrge (Jul 12, 2011)

And they do find out - I received some free patterns from a wonderful toy designer somewhere in Europe. She gives away her patterns and there are several dozen of them. Next time I went to her website she had posted her feelings about someone selling toys made with her pattern, on Etsy, and stating that if it happened again she would close down her website and stop giving away patterns. So there's a good chance that Etsy or eBay, or Amazon or whatever, is watched by designers.


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## bellelynn (May 20, 2011)

Copyright laws on patterns are different that on books, and other things. Patterns are sold for you to make something. I would do my own research, then decide if it is worth maybe being sued. Disney makes fabric that you can sew using someones pattern. They have lost in court. They are selling a usable product. Colleges did the same thing had their logos put on fabrics. I would do my own research and then do what you feel best. Most companies will send a cease and desist letter before taking you to court.[/quote]

Please note to all people who are readers of this forum topic, this applies ONLY to the USA. I also copied and pasted below, an interesting thing I found reading this article. Most noteably this article is regarding SEWING patterns.

"Thefor a fixed amount of money. It is now yours and the manufacturer n purchaser, that being you, buys the pattern o longer has any legal control over what you do with the pattern, however, even if the pattern is not copyrightable, you should not 
Make copies of the pattern to either sell or give away 
Post a copy of the pattern on the internet for others to use 
Modify the pattern slightly and sell it as your own creation

This refers to the pattern itself not to the product made from the pattern.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Sewing patterns (templates) are different from instructional patterns!

I'm a designer and have quite a number of copyrighted patterns on the market. I regularly search on line to see if my patterns are being posted ANYWHERE on line or if people are sharing them on blogs, forums, etc.. If I find someone selling items made from my patterns, I send them a "gentle" reminder requesting credit for the pattern design (since I do not object to knitters selling items made from my patterns - but I do ask that credit be given). Many designers do the same thing. It doesn't make us members of the "Copyright Police Department", it's protecting OUR financial interests.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

c2cAROL said:


> I just bought a skain of yarn, there is a pattern on the back of the lable,I do not see any thing pertaining to making the item and selling it.Should it not be there if they do not want you to make it and sell it?


Go to the yarn website. It will be there. All you need is the opyright symbol and "All rights reserved". Actually only the symbol.


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## andersjw (Apr 25, 2011)

I often am asked to make something for someone and they always pay me to do so. This is usually a baby afghan. I generally use a pattern. Am I now suppossed to tell them that I can't do it anymore because the pattern I am using is copyrighted? Many of us knit and crochet constantly and would soon run out of friends and relatives to give our finished items to. I have given away lots of things thru the years including to charities. If I didn't get paid for some of the things I make I would eventually have to stop doing what I love to do because I no longer can afford the supplies? I am at a loss as to what I can do.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

andersjw said:


> I often am asked to make something for someone and they always pay me to do so. This is usually a baby afghan. I generally use a pattern. Am I now suppossed to tell them that I can't do it anymore because the pattern I am using is copyrighted? Many of us knit and crochet constantly and would soon run out of friends and relatives to give our finished items to. I have given away lots of things thru the years including to charities. If I didn't get paid for some of the things I make I would eventually have to stop doing what I love to do because I no longer can afford the supplies? I am at a loss as to what I can do.


This is really simple for you and not difficult at all. Contact a lawyer in your state and ask him/her. Then you can stop guessing as to what you legally can do.


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## AuntKnitty (Apr 10, 2011)

andersjw said:


> I often am asked to make something for someone and they always pay me to do so. This is usually a baby afghan. I generally use a pattern. Am I now suppossed to tell them that I can't do it anymore because the pattern I am using is copyrighted? Many of us knit and crochet constantly and would soon run out of friends and relatives to give our finished items to. I have given away lots of things thru the years including to charities. If I didn't get paid for some of the things I make I would eventually have to stop doing what I love to do because I no longer can afford the supplies? I am at a loss as to what I can do.


Design your own patterns and circumvent the issue entirely!


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## Sue Prenter (Mar 27, 2011)

someone may have already suggested this but just in case search "copyright" on KP and you will see the this has had several lengthy discussion especilay an actual case in Wales Sue


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

courier770 said:


> No one is "taking" anything and copyrighting it! I don't understand this hatred of Disney. It's a company that many people depend on for their livelihoods - you know, the employees!
> 
> The company I work for has had to engage in legal action a few times to protect our trademark. They pay me well for my job, provide me with excellent benefits and a safe work environment. Yes it's a very large corporation that employs hundreds of thousands across the globe. Those hundreds of thousands..are little guys like myself, just regular people.


Courier, the knitters are upset because now they can no longer presume it is ok to do something. Now they need to find out what is legal for them to do. Plain and simple. It all goes back to "its comfortable in my world, and I dont want it to change, nor do I want to take the time to see if I need to change it".


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

I don't think the issue is that cut and dry. Here is a link to a blog on exactly this issue. Some might find it interesting to read:

http://knittingforprofit.com/blog/an-update-on-knitting-pattern-copyrights/


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

tamarque said:


> I don't think the issue is that cut and dry. Here is a link to a blog on exactly this issue. Some might find it interesting to read:
> 
> http://knittingforprofit.com/blog/an-update-on-knitting-pattern-copyrights/


Not to be ignorant or unsensitive, but this article is in general terms and is several years old. And yes, it is as cut and dried as I stated. Contact a lawyer in your own country or state to find out how this pertains to your right to take someone else's pattern and sell the item made from it. People really are trying to make mountains out of molehills when it comes to legal issues. When it comes to legal issues, ask a lawyer, it is different in each country and state.


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## c2cAROL (Jul 31, 2011)

Is buying a knit or crochet pattern, different fron buying a sewing pattern?If I bought a pattern to make a dress, made it, then sold it,would that still be wrong,what about a knit pattern for a hat,same thing?I can understand not re-printing a pattern,and selling it, this would be wrong,I just don't get why you can't sell something you knit.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

c2cAROL said:


> Is buying a knit or crochet pattern, different fron buying a sewing pattern?If I bought a pattern to make a dress, made it, then sold it,would that still be wrong,what about a knit pattern for a hat,same thing?I can understand not re-printing a pattern,and selling it, this would be wrong,I just don't get why you can't sell something you knit.


Absolutely different but in some ways the same. You need to contact a lawyer as they are the ones who will know all the ins and outs of the laws. Someone living in the USA, contacts a lawyer in their state, not a lawyer living in Canada or another country. Copyright laws are mostly specific to that country in which the person lives. If I was a lawyer, I could advise you as to what your legal right was here in Canada. It does not matter in the least what I think or feel the law is, what matters is what the legalities are of the law.

And what you read on the internet are only people's opinions of what the laws are. They are not lawyers who have studied the copyright issues. No practicing lawyer would open themself up to lawsuits by posting things on the internet when it comes to interpreting the law.

Too many times, the average person will try to interpret the law according to what they feel or think it should be. Lawyers have gone to school for years to educate themselves as to how to interpret and understand what the legalities of the law state.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

5mmdpns said:


> tamarque said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think the issue is that cut and dry. Here is a link to a blog on exactly this issue. Some might find it interesting to read:
> ...


The problem is that nothing is cut and dry in law or anything else, despite all the mechanistic efforts to impose control. The blog discussion goes on till late in 2010 and the discussion resonates well with this one. The only thing absolutely true is that in case of a legal claim, the one with the greater wealth will be able to sustain the fight longer. And that is still no guarantee they will win despite their expectations. The courts are full of such David and Goliath examples. Human decency, and personal integrity are the only things that ultimately will mean anything--at least in this community of small craftspeople.


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## Judy_ (Jun 25, 2011)

hennie said:


> Well if they say you can't sell...Dont sell online!! I doubt someone in another country is going to come and see if you have anything from their patterns for sale at your local craft fayre lol


I wouldn't worry about it! There are only so many ways you can inc./dec/and bind off! It's called "knitting". A sweater must, by definition have two arms and some length, and a hole for the head! Nobody can stop you from making a sweater even though it resembles all sweaters. What about those diagonal dishrags everybody makes? One is the same as the next, yet they are sold by the hundreds!
I think as long as you even choose a different color from that shown in the original pattern, you have "made it your own" pattern! I have used many patterns and have improved method, added rows, or usually added something that makes it my own and better than the original pattern I had gotten the idea from. Patterns are like recipes! They are to be used as a guide, but that's it!
Not only that, if the mistakes are counted, the pattern has been changed! It's called "one of a kind"! LOL


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## Judy_ (Jun 25, 2011)

cathy47 said:


> The copywright laws are a pain. I do embroidery also and you have to be careful with that also. And these days there is someone out there to sink your boat fast. Thats why most times I just give away items. Disney is one that always have people out looking for copies being sold. But I agree why share the patterns if we can't go and sell them. Needless to say does the copywirght laws cover someone else taking items given to them and then they sell them?


I wouldn't worry about one bit about a certain %. I just bet there isn't a law that covers. Add rows, add stitches, or take a few out here or there. Anything, so that it isn't exactly the same. Nobody is going to say anything. How would they prove anything? A scarf is a scarf! There is only so many ways you can make a piece of knit fabric that will fit around the neck. If it resembles a certain pattern, who could say?

I make cats beds and sell them. I started out looking at a wonderful, pattern with a copyright. Well, all cats beds I've seen either knit, or manufactured, are round things with a bottom! How else can you make them so a cat can fit in them, right? So, I did my own, based on the pattern, but I could not get the bottom to turn out right, so I made my own basic crocheted circle (anyone have the copyright for a crocheted circle??) and like it much better. I also used a different yarn! I have sold a few. A circle is a circle and only a couple of ways to make it! Can anyone stop you from making a circle, attaching it to a tube, and calling it a pet bed? Who would dare take credit for it?
I think it's carried way too far!

When I was in the handspun business, I put out a few patterns that I had created for my yarn. If I ever would see my pattern used somewhere, I would consider it a huge compliment! There is no reason to be "small" about it! We need to help each other in this business. It's tough to make any profit as it is.


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## Frogsong (Feb 26, 2011)

http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml


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## pattisark (Feb 4, 2011)

I have two questions, 1st I have older patterns that do not mention copy rights, so then shouldn't we be free to share the patterns or sale the items? Then my 2nd question is how long is a copy right good for? I know most patents are for a limited time, is the copy right different? I do not understand why patterns are being treated this way, but if you buy a book you read it and pass it on, or sell it in your yard sell, without looking over your shoulder. I agree with the believe that people who buy handmade items, do so because they don't buy patterns and make them, so how is the designer losing anything?


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## Chava (Jul 7, 2011)

Thanks. Interesting. If I were in a position to sell items in any quantity on such sites as Etsy, for instance, I think I would in any case use what I at least thought were my own designs and acknowledge the source of some influence I thought worthy...inspired by janje smith's pattern for a glove..inspired by Audobon's bird prints... To be safe, I would ask an attorney.


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## lkellison (Apr 23, 2011)

My question has to do with the pattern itself. If I make an item using a pattern I cut out of a magazine in the 70's (and yes I have some), then knit it and post a picture on this site, when others ask for the pattern what do I say? I should be able to give them the pattern - zillions of people bought that magazine and surely I wouldn't be the only one making items from the pattern. I feel I should be able to post the pattern here, 'cause there isn't a snowball's chance in H___ of them ever getting a copy of the magazine itself if I even did have a record of which magazine it appeared in. Plus, by my posting the pattern here for free, I'm not selling it. What say you?


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## pattisark (Feb 4, 2011)

Frogsong said:


> http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml


Thank you, point made.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

couple of years ago I made a crochet scarf pattern that I found on Lion Brand. I actually made 3 of them! At some point I was roaming around Etsy and there was this pattern in 2 varieties (length and yarn). I was surprised to see it there.

"Laws: We know what they are, and what they are worth! They are spider webs for the rich and mighty, steel chains for the poor and weak, fishing nets in the hands of the government." - Pierre-Joseph Proudhon (1809-1865) French mutualist political philosopher

My standard is to know what you are dealing with and be conscious of your choices. Do what you think is right!


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## rolyn63 (Jul 18, 2011)

LilgirlCA said:


> rolyn63 said:
> 
> 
> > Peoline said:
> ...


That is a problem, now. I have NO black and white proof. The things I made for self -dish/wash clothes were accidently left at my last place of employment (I used them to clean counters and such at the convient store I worked at). The rug I made had to be tossed out - it was barely 24" square, after a cat we had decided to pee on it, more then once. The few afghans I made like that - except for one I'm currently working on, are now out of the state. Even if I get photos of them now, there will be no actual proof that they were made before. I did not think to take photos of them before I gave them away. 
I will double check the Lion Brand site to see what they say about selling the items made from their free patterns.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Doing what you "think" is right is hardly the same as doing what IS right!

Finding ways to circumvent copyright is just oh so wrong.

In pointing out the constraints of complying with copyright, obviously some feathers have been "ruffled". 

Most pattern designers are NOT fodder for "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous". We/they are people trying desperately to provide for themselves and their families.

Let's drop some of the "them and us" attitudes and have some respect for the creative property of others.

If you think copyright is such a frivolous topic, you are free to design your own patterns, write your own books, music, newspapers, etc..


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

Frogsong said:


> http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml


interesting article that contradicts much of what has been stated as gospel here. if this article is correct, it informs me that the tactic is to scare people enough that they will do what the designer wishes. certainly is a cost effective process if it works.

like i previously said, it all comes down to comradery, respect and integrity between people in the public--in this case it is the small crafsperson community.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

It's NOT a matter of scaring people..it's called "limited use" and it's perfectly legal.

Let's say a designer not only designs patterns but derives a portion of her/his income from sales of finished garments made from those patterns. By limiting the use of the patterns the designer is ensuring that they do not create competition for their own enterprise.

I personally have no problem with anyone using my patterns to make items and sell as long as I am given credit for the creative design. This is because I do not sell knitted items. I'll design for pay but I knit for pure pleasure.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

lkellison said:


> My question has to do with the pattern itself. If I make an item using a pattern I cut out of a magazine in the 70's (and yes I have some), then knit it and post a picture on this site, when others ask for the pattern what do I say? I should be able to give them the pattern - zillions of people bought that magazine and surely I wouldn't be the only one making items from the pattern. I feel I should be able to post the pattern here, 'cause there isn't a snowball's chance in H___ of them ever getting a copy of the magazine itself if I even did have a record of which magazine it appeared in. Plus, by my posting the pattern here for free, I'm not selling it. What say you?


You need to read the Terms of Use as laid out by the Knitting Paradise legal team. You also need to remember the contract you agreed to with KP when you signed up and registered as a member. I dont need to say anymore than that.

People all over are always trying to get "one up and over on the law or anyone else" they can no matter who it hurts. The only way that this "comrodery" works is by mutual respect for everyone, including those who work for a living designing and copyrighting patterns. The law is the law is the law. And no amount of what a person thinks or feels is right is going to stand up in court when you are sued for going against what the law states.

And by the way to all who keep posting articles about what the copyright laws are and should be and think they should be need to remember THE INTERNET IS NOT AND DOES NOT WRITE THE LAWS OF THE COUNTRY YOU LIVE IN. NOR DOES IT INTERPRET THESE LAWS. They are giving legal advise and this is against the law.


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## rolyn63 (Jul 18, 2011)

MissP said:


> How does copyright law work if you have made a design from a pattern, in order to sell the items, as in a toy animal, and then changed it to another animal, with the same properties, or accessories?
> Would crediting the designer, or contacting the designer first, to let them know they inspired you be appropriate?
> I am writing a children's story, and wish to attach a tiny animal form the story to the book, to sell on Etsy on my gift site. Rozetoilegifts.
> Thank you all for discussing this. I learn so much.


This may help you with that. It is only one section of stuff that I found online.

Copyright law doesn't cover ideas or techniques, it only protects the particular way an idea is expressed. As long as you do not copy another designer's work, you may use a similar idea or the same techniques to create something new and unique. In a nutshell, you can use an underlying idea or technique, but you cannot copy someone else's unique way of expressing that idea or technique.


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## rolyn63 (Jul 18, 2011)

judithw1 said:


> I am a rug hooker and we have had many of the same discussions. If the pattern/product/painting was made before 1920, it is in the public domain and can be copied and sold. We had person come to one of the meetings and give us the information.


Part of something I found online.

In the United States:
Any published works copyrighted prior to 1923 are in the public domain.


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## rolyn63 (Jul 18, 2011)

A link to something else that I found, puts things in "laymens terms".

http://knittingforprofit.com/blog/an-update-on-knitting-pattern-copyrights/


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## kacey64 (Mar 23, 2011)

Check with the publisher or designer. I would guess it is like beading and that some designers/publishers do allow us to sell items made from their patterns. Beaders I know (including me) allow customers to sell items made from their patterns to keep the bead stores open and the craft active! Just respect those who do not allow sales or just don't buy those books/patterns!


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

rolyn63-this is the same link i posted a bit earlier.

knitting paradise may have asked people to sign an agreement, but that is not legal law. Laws have never been anything but guidelines and they have always been applied differentially. Despite how this may irritate some, that is the history of Law. So I will go back to my basic premise--people make agreements between each other as means to mutually live by. They depend solely on the good will of the people involved for peaceful co-existence and mutual benefit. Otherwise the system devolves into a law and order mentality with people seeing each other as enemies and wanting to set up a policing mechanism. This latter is usually sought by those with power and money. In a knitting community, we have whatever goes for honor and respect to make the system working mutually. 

It is feeling like this conversation has reached the point of just going in circles.


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## rolyn63 (Jul 18, 2011)

Oh ok, tamarque - I missed your posting of it, sorry. Just trying to figure it out myself and thought I would post the link to the one I found that made it a bit easier to understand. Legal terms can be a pain to figure out sometimes.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I don't know that the discussion has gone in circles. Legalities can be difficult for lay people to understand, additionally the average person doesn't realize that their "feelings or thoughts" are not legal definitions. 

Personally I'd prefer not to have to fill out those annoying income tax forms every year..but legally I know I have to..or face spending some time in the "gray bar hotel". Since I'm pretty sure the accommodations are much more spartan than my condo...I'll continue to fill out the blasted forms.

Lively discussion is not a bad thing. It can be educational, insightful and thought provoking.

Now I think I'll wander over to my freezer and have a little ice cream...see what I mean?


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## lkellison (Apr 23, 2011)

5mmdpns said:


> lkellison said:
> 
> 
> > My question has to do with the pattern itself. If I make an item using a pattern I cut out of a magazine in the 70's (and yes I have some), then knit it and post a picture on this site, when others ask for the pattern what do I say? I should be able to give them the pattern - zillions of people bought that magazine and surely I wouldn't be the only one making items from the pattern. I feel I should be able to post the pattern here, 'cause there isn't a snowball's chance in H___ of them ever getting a copy of the magazine itself if I even did have a record of which magazine it appeared in. Plus, by my posting the pattern here for free, I'm not selling it. What say you?
> ...


Thank you for the recap of the discussion and the forum rules. All I asked was if I could give a pattern out, and you told me no, so I won't give it out. Okay? Okay.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

lkellison, no one was beating you up on this, I'm pretty sure of that.

You can always give a friend a link to a pattern (remember that websites are often paid by advertisers by the number of "hits" they get).

I happen to have a cousin, who is disabled and on a limited income. When I am done with a pattern and sure I will not use it again...I "give" it to her, without keeping a copy, she does the same for me. There are ways to legally "share" without causing financial hardship to the designer. On the other hand both my cousin and I design patterns..we often send our pattern to each other and ask the other to "rate" the pattern. Last year I sent her a scarf pattern..her feedback: this is an advanced piece of work that will confuse and annoy a novice. She was right!


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## PlumKrazy (Aug 7, 2011)

HOLY SMOKES!!! This is a very lively discussion, to say the least. I am new to this site and I decided to follow this entire discussion to this point. It is a little confussing for my ADD-ridden mind, but I think I get it. I just bought 2 patterns from an internet site. I did notice a copyright thing on them so I will do some checking into it to see if I can sell my creations off of the patterns. I'm not one to follow a pattern exactly, especially if you factor in mistakes that were not fixed. But, I can see the side of the designer too. If I can use a pattern to make some money off of my labor, I have no problem giving credit to the designer. If the designer wants to be a pain and say I can't use the pattern for making things to sell to try to have extra income for my hobbies of knitting and drag racing, then they may not be worthy of my money. I probably shouldn't get that attitude about it, but I knit to share with others, either by gifts or selling the items. So if I'm going to spend my money on a pattern, I want to be able to sell the creations I make off of the pattern. I'm not interested in reselling patterns, that would be oh so wrong. But, I want to be able to sell my little stuffed bears I knit, so other Grandmas can buy them for their grand babies. 
As an ethical person, I will watch things like copyrights, which I never gave much thought to before this discussion. Not because I don't care, but because I don't read every little thing (due to the ADD) My efforts will be boosted to do so, especially since rumor has it that there are designers out there who let us make & sell things off of their patters, in exchange for credit where credit is due. 

All that being said, does anyone have a cute pattern, not too hard to do, for a cute little stuffed animal that I can make and sell? If so, I'm interested. Let me know.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Please don't judge designers harshly who don't want their patterns used to create items for retail....they may in fact derive a portion of their income from crafting items from their own patterns. Marketing such items as "exclusive" can boost their sales base. It's not a matter of them wanting to be a "pain" it's a matter of them protecting their retail business.

Not all designers feel as I do (that it's OK to retail items made from my patterns).

You will have to research stuffed animal patterns...second hand information is never a good idea, it's led to more than one person finding themselves afoul of the law.


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## Sunsea (Jul 10, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Selling items, be it at a small local show or in mass quantities over the internet, using a pattern that states you cannot is still copyright infringement. The size, scope or location of the infringement does NOT matter.
> 
> To state otherwise is to say, lying a little is OK, or stealing a little is acceptable, a little infidelity isn't bad, and a small murder is perfectly fine!
> 
> Diminishing a wrong by saying it's acceptable to do on a small scale...wrong is still wrong.


Woah Nelly! Your analogy comparing stealing copyright with murder is hideous! I can say first hand as a person who has had both a design stole and reproduced (when I was designing needle point canvases over a decade ago) and who has lost a parent through homicide, they do not even come close! Please give more thought to what you say before you say it. You can always create another design. Get over it! You cannot return a life that was taken.


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## PlumKrazy (Aug 7, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Please don't judge designers harshly who don't want their patterns used to create items for retail....they may in fact derive a portion of their income from crafting items from their own patterns. Marketing such items as "exclusive" can boost their sales base. It's not a matter of them wanting to be a "pain" it's a matter of them protecting their retail business.
> 
> Not all designers feel as I do (that it's OK to retail items made from my patterns).
> 
> You will have to research stuffed animal patterns...second hand information is never a good idea, it's led to more than one person finding themselves afoul of the law.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not really judging them harshly...I may have said it wrong...it's late & I'm getting tired. I know everyone has to make money somehow. I do research things when I get a chance, which doesn't happen often.

I really don't see myself trying to sidestep laws. I'm in the medical field & ethics is a HUGE part of my integrity to my job. It's also how I was raised. If I do something that is against the law, I try to rectify it ASAP. For instance, I started making a bear from one of the patterns I just bought. I did the first one for my granddaughter, cuz I gotta spoil her every chance I get. But my intention was to make more for others who wanted to buy them for their little ones. I knew about the pattern being protected by copyrights, but after reading this thread, I sent to the site I got them from and sent an email asking specifically about selling what I make from the patterns. Why? Because my parents instilled in me all my life, that integrity and ethics were more important that any amount of money. I can't seem to lose that. And I really don't want to. It makes me a good person & employee.

So just out of curiosity, what kind of patterns have you designed? I may be interested in buying some.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I do NOT sell my patterns over the internet and will not allow them to be sold as downloads. I specifically design cabled patterns for a variety of items.

My analogy about crime was just that..an analogy. MOst of my grandmother's family was murdered by the Red Army during the occupation of Austria..I think I have a good handle on losing loved ones to crime.

A crime is a crime...some may think a "small crime" is just that..small..it isn't! Lying is lying, stealing is stealing and cheating is cheating.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

rolyn63 said:


> Oh ok, tamarque - I missed your posting of it, sorry. Just trying to figure it out myself and thought I would post the link to the one I found that made it a bit easier to understand. Legal terms can be a pain to figure out sometimes.


wasn't criticizing you. but nice to see that you had the same reaction to that blog as i did.


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## tamarque (Jan 21, 2011)

well, i have enjoyed the ideas of this discussion, and have seen the different sides of the issue. as with everything in law, the application of it will always be in dispute, as it is in all laws. and the ethical standards of the people involved is what will make or break the concepts of the law. it is always that way. so, i thank you for bringing the topic up. discussion is always good. i have just had my fill.


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## coolmoves (Mar 27, 2011)

Good plan! I applaud you.


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## silvercharms (Mar 29, 2011)

So where have we got to?
If designers really want their designs to be EXCLUSIVE, they should not publish and take money for their patterns.
If designers are OK with people selling their made-up versions of the pattern, they might require a small sum of money (only applicable to expensive garments) and credit.
If designers are happy to join the great big creative world of crafters they will be happy to see their patterns used and even improved on so that we all can share and learn and enjoy.
How's that for a full circle?


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

.



hennie said:


> Well if they say you can't sell...Dont sell online!! I doubt someone in another country is going to come and see if you have anything from their patterns for sale at your local craft fayre lol


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## Raelithe (Aug 21, 2011)

With regard to selling items made from Lion Brand patterns, this is taken straight from the FAQ on their website:

Many people have asked us if they can sell items made with our patterns. The short answer is most of the time. You have permission to sell any finished item you make using a Lion Brand copyrighted pattern. So, for example, you could crochet and sell a completed Fast and Easy Cowl.

When you sell an item from one of our patterns, there are two rules. First, you cannot sell or give away our patterns; if you want to share our patterns with others, you should either use the Email function on our patterns or direct your friends to LionBrand.com. Second, you cannot reproduce our photographs, as they are copyrighted. Remember, your own photography will be the most accurate depiction of what youre selling; after all, your customer is buying your handmade goods, not ours!

While the vast majority of patterns on our site are owned by Lion Brand, select patterns are sampled with permission from books, designers, etc. If the caption under the photo of the pattern indicates that the pattern is reproduced with permission, please contact the original copyright holder to find out their policies. Click here to view some of the patterns that are reproduced with permission. We also carry a selection of physical patterns from other designers; again, please respect their copyright and policies.

http://blog.lionbrand.com/tag/faq/


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## PlumKrazy (Aug 7, 2011)

courier770 said:


> I do NOT sell my patterns over the internet and will not allow them to be sold as downloads. I specifically design cabled patterns for a variety of items.


That was a little harsh, in my opinion. I was just expressing an interest in patterns. Who's to say I wouldn't be willing to use "snail mail" or whatever? But, it's ok. I won't ask for your patterns.

Thanks for the lively discussion, everyone...it's been interesting and informative.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I didn't mean to be harsh, just emphatic that I will not sell on the internet as I've heard some true horror stories from other designers.


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## Augustgran (Apr 16, 2011)

if the pattern reads no selling of items made then don't buy it! if all the crafty persons would stick together and not purchase from those deigners then they may change their minds. the only time I use a pattern is for the basic measurements (surely thats not copyrighted) such as cast on 50 stitches for the sleeve of a childs sweaterand create as I go and I am sure 99% of you folks here are capable of the same


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## Sewvirgo (Jul 27, 2011)

I must be one of the 1% who can't knit on the fly without directions. I love it that there are those that can and I depend on patterns for my creations. 

Thank you all designers who provide me with inspiration and directions. I hope to one day be able to design something too. It's on my bucket list. In the meantime, I will use other people's designs and respect their wishes.


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## Laura R (Apr 14, 2011)

I think the title of "Designer" is being played loosely here. I'll bet most experienced KP knitters could easily claim that title. Loosely, that is.

Re. professional, recognized Designers, show me your credits.


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## Sunsea (Jul 10, 2011)

Laura R said:


> I think the title of "Designer" is being played loosely here. I'll bet most experienced KP knitters could easily claim that title. Loosely, that is.
> 
> Re. professional, recognized Designers, show me your credits.


I wholeheartedly agree. They need to either put up or shut up as the old saying goes. So if those claiming to have published copyright patterns, please be willing to show the credits to validate your claims.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I'm not sure what is meant by "show the credits". Since I have several patterns out in shops that are selling and I derive a portion of my income from those sales, I suppose that's enough for some but will never be enough for others.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

Sorry, Laura and Sunsea, 

I think you ladies need to leave the attitudes in another room. I, too, have sold copyrighted patterns. I can give you chapter and verse, if you buy them.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

"put up or shut up"..how ladylike.


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## terri81455 (Aug 21, 2011)

I heard somewhere that if you purchase a pattern then that "purchased" pattern belongs to you. Even though you can't reproduce the pattern for sale, you can sell "your own" knitted items made from the pattern. I always give the designer credit and if I can post where the pattern came from in case someone else what's to also "purchase" the pattern. To me, it's free advertising for the designer. I also always try to gain permission first but sometimes that is not possible.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

The copyright holder "can" attach a caveat such as the pattern(s) not being used to make items for retail sales. You have to read the fine print.


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## AuntKnitty (Apr 10, 2011)

Sewvirgo said:


> I must be one of the 1% who can't knit on the fly without directions. I love it that there are those that can and I depend on patterns for my creations.
> 
> Thank you all designers who provide me with inspiration and directions. I hope to one day be able to design something too. It's on my bucket list.* In the meantime, I will use other people's designs and respect their wishes.*


That's really what this WHOLE issue boils down to isn't it? Respecting others? Respecting their boundaries and limits?


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## AuntKnitty (Apr 10, 2011)

Sunsea said:


> Laura R said:
> 
> 
> > I think the title of "Designer" is being played loosely here. I'll bet most experienced KP knitters could easily claim that title. Loosely, that is.
> ...


Wow...what happened to the warm supportive community of knitters?

I really wish sometimes, that KP would ban all discussions on copyright issues, cos they never seem to end well.

It's not about what you think they should be, or feel they should be, or have heard they are, these are laws we're discussing. Laws and ethics. If you think it ethical and legal (meaning you won't get caught) to make something with a pattern that is clearly marked "for personal use only" then go for it. But be prepared for the consequences and don't be surprised and shocked if they happen to you.


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## zipknitter (Feb 6, 2011)

Just another view on the subject. When I was actively knitting as a business and selling large amounts of handmade items at craft fairs in Portland OR, I met people whose only job was to attend the sales and see if people were making things from certain designers and more then one was ordered on the spot to take every item made from those patterns and put them off the tables or face a lawsuit. After a couple of years I started carrying the patterns I had used with me so that if someone challenged me I had the patterns to prove that they were allowed to be used for resale. Twice I had people come to my home to check and see what patterns I was using for resale too. 
Even was challenged once about using a pattern with a graphic that was close to a Disney character, but was able to show that the graph had been used by my great aunt long before Disney ever came up with the character but was really glad they didn't decide to take me to court. The My attorney told me even if I did have picture showing her with the afghan in a newspaper in 1911 after she won at the county fair, they could still make me spend every last cent defending myself and could end up taking the pattern as their own and I couldn't do a thing about it.
Since I did a lot of designing back then too, there were a couple of times that I spent hours proving that the patterns were my own and did not copy anything that was published by others. Luckily some of mine were published in small publications and I had full color proof they were mine before the other designers put theirs out.
So, there is no dead certain rule that you can sell anything without someone coming to check it out and challenge your right to do it. That doesn't mean you cannot sell items you make, it just means you need to be careful and follow the rules of the designers that put those patterns out and just because you design something yourself doesn't mean that someone else might think they designed it first or that you copied their ideas. I still sell many items through mail order and have challenged some sellers on ebay asking where they got the patterns for some things in their stores.


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## dijewe (Mar 1, 2011)

This is such a touchy subject in any creative field. Anything, whether its knitting, sewing, painting etc, that is designed by someone is their Intellectual Property. They can choose to sell it, give it away AND they can choose to request that people don't steal their art. 

In any case, every designer will immediately recognize their own designs, no matter how it has been tweaked. I know it drives them crazy that people have the gaul to claim their work and yes some do go quite crazy when they find it out - these are all passionate people after all. 

When people start demanding credentials of an artist, things are getting out of hand. Ugh, such bad karma to be around such a negative vibe - just serves to squash that creative spirit and may be time to move on and mix with like-minded people instead. People who respect the work of others and don't steal it and sell it off as their own.

I guess someone will flame me for calling knitwear designers - artists, well too bad because it takes one to know one :twisted:


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## Sunsea (Jul 10, 2011)

I just want to make something clear on here. Never once have I mentioned selling what I make. I knit for joy and give gifts. 

I read this thread out of curiosity. What I have experienced in this thread has been receiving harsh arrogant comments from people claiming they are designers. It has been sprinkled from page one to page eleven. I have seen links to postings on the net by legal attorneys among the threads being discounted by people who are not attorneys. I have seen things like theft compared to be the same as murder. Not hardly. I have seen a few people inflexible and unwilling to really hear each other out. It is not unreasonable to request proof of the pudding when there have been certain persons consistently belittling others and calling them thieves from their soapboxes. And yet, when asked in return to show they are who they claim to be, to validate their statements (which would only give more credence to their commentary), they see it as insulting. An unwillingness to do this takes away from the credibility and attacking makes it even more so. 

The only negative vibe has been from the people claiming to be designers that have been attacking every other comment since this thread began. 

Also for the record, I am against pattern theft. I do believe in following what the copyright states. I also believe many designers are cutting off their noses with some of the restrictions they apply to the copyright. It is just as much an abuse or the copyright (albeit a legal abuse) as is copying and selling. In this case I can simply choose not to purchase from them if they insist on placing restrictions. 

As to those who believe changing a percentage of the pattern is okay for reselling, whether it is or is not I do not know but personally, I do consider that to still be theft of a design irregardless of whatever percent is changed.


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## dijewe (Mar 1, 2011)

I hear what you are saying Sunsea. Some artists do get all obsessive compulsive about their work and I can see how one would want some credibility regarding the condescending statements. 

In a nutshell, one can only claim copyright if you have registered a design, so if you are paying to have your work copyrighted, I think you have full right to get uptight about people infringing the copyright.

The internet is such an effective way of advertising , marketing and selling that I am stumped when people don't use it. There are so many ways to sell on the internet without having to scream 'copyright' every 5 minutes too. 

The poor lady who asked the initial question must be slapping herself upside the head for bringing this up now


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## andersjw (Apr 25, 2011)

Please clear up something for me. What is the reason some designers do not want you to sell anything you made from their patterns.I am not asking about selling the pattern itself. Does this affect them monetarily ,if so how. Do they not want a poorly made item to be offered for sale? I am not posing this question as a copyright question. If any designer is on line and can answer this question for me I would appreciate it. Thank you


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

andersjw, I personally do not object if someone purchases one of my copyrighted patterns and uses it to make items for sale (making that clear).

Think about this situation if you will...a designer comes up with a pattern, copyrights it and markets it. Along comes a company that obtains the pattern, adapts it to a mass production operation and markets the item. Clearly the designers intent was NOT to generate commercial income for another. How could the designer possibly draw the line between 12 items being made for retail, 120, 1,200 or 12,000?

In my nearly 60 years of life I've been to many art fairs and craft shows. I've seen a great many knitted items on tables and in booths. Only once did I see a vendor give credit to the designer of the item. 

This summer at our local Art show a woman was selling knitted and crochet items, not one of them gave information about the origin of the design. When I asked the woman why she didn't credit the designer, her answer floored me. "If I did that people would just buy the patterns and make this stuff themselves". So in her mind it's fine for her to make money but not the designer.

The funny thing is, yarn shops often display "models" that have been knitted or crocheted from patterns and yarns available at their shops. The shops ALWAYS put a tag on the item stating the pattern and designer..but nearly never does the tag state who knitted the item! Interesting twist. Sometimes the shops sell these models to make room for new yarns with new models. Generally they sell them for the cost of the yarn only and a shop owner friend of mine said she ALWAYS gets permission from the copyright holder before she sells the item, otherwise it's donated.


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

I am guessing that they think their designs are so ugly that only a small number of people (those they can make items for) will want them. 
Seriously tho, who knows?
The claim is so that they can make more money from some who post here. I am not sure how getting your name out there as a designer of a well made piece is going to hurt your future sales. Different strokes...



andersjw said:


> Please clear up something for me. What is the reason some designers do not want you to sell anything you made from their patterns.I am not asking about selling the pattern itself. Does this affect them monetarily ,if so how. Do they not want a poorly made item to be offered for sale? I am not posing this question as a copyright question. If any designer is on line and can answer this question for me I would appreciate it. Thank you


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

Yes, Terri, I have been holding off because I have had no luck contacting a pattern designer. I am now in the midst of deciding which way to go if I continue to come up against a brick wall. 
It isn't as if there aren't thousands of patterns I like... (sigh).



terri81455 said:


> I heard somewhere that if you purchase a pattern then that "purchased" pattern belongs to you. Even though you can't reproduce the pattern for sale, you can sell "your own" knitted items made from the pattern. I always give the designer credit and if I can post where the pattern came from in case someone else what's to also "purchase" the pattern. To me, it's free advertising for the designer. I also always try to gain permission first but sometimes that is not possible.


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## mishawetterling (Mar 23, 2011)

I never wanted to spark such despair and debate! I was just asking an honest question, I'm sorry to have caused everyone such trouble,. I thought that this is where you come to have your questions answered....perhaps I need to think twice before I ask something on here.


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

Despair? If someone is despairing over this discussion I would guess they are beyond hope with the circumstances our world is in. 
Debate, the sparking of thought, is a good thing not a negative. I certainly hope that through reading this type of thread people who never would have thought of simply asking permission will do so now. 
It is the easiest solution really.



mishawetterling said:


> I never wanted to spark such despair and debate! I was just asking an honest question, I'm sorry to have caused everyone such trouble,. I thought that this is where you come to have your questions answered....perhaps I need to think twice before I ask something on here.


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## dijewe (Mar 1, 2011)

@andersjw. 

It's probably because they are scared that their pattern is going to be mass produced and they will lose out on the stipend. 

They really are fighting a losing battle though - China copies everything with and without patents, copyrights whatever the hell. My husband went through that issue 3 years ago when one of the mechanical products that he designed was bought, reverse engineered, mass produced and the market flooded with a product that looked identical but was inferior. It was a nightmare!

Besides all that, fashion trends shift every 3 months - along with that fabrics and yarn, not to mention colorways! I would love to see how many ladies here can knit 120 000 pairs of fashionable socks for example to sell at a massive profit!!

Just a side note here - I have numerous books of knitting patterns and some of the designs are so poorly designed and ocnstructed that I am amazed they were published!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I think this discussion has run it's course. Apparently there is no "middle ground" on this subject.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I said a company as in manufacturing company, not an individual knitter.


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## LilgirlCA (Jan 22, 2011)

andersjw said:


> Please clear up something for me. What is the reason some designers do not want you to sell anything you made from their patterns.I am not asking about selling the pattern itself. Does this affect them monetarily ,if so how. Do they not want a poorly made item to be offered for sale? I am not posing this question as a copyright question. If any designer is on line and can answer this question for me I would appreciate it. Thank you


I'm not a designer. Some designers also sell finished product so they maybe they don't want the competition


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

And then there are the folks who claim copyright on a simple garter stitch and stst baby sweater that a newbie knitter with confidence might try. 
People can call an end to the discussion all they want, but, since the subject comes up every month or two I think we are not done with it for as long as we use this site. 
It has been said before I will say it again, the advice goes ... if you are tired of the subject click unwatch or delete the notification email .


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## PlumKrazy (Aug 7, 2011)

jelun said:


> And then there are the folks who claim copyright on a simple garter stitch and stst baby sweater that a newbie knitter with confidence might try.
> People can call an end to the discussion all they want, but, since the subject comes up every month or two I think we are not done with is for as long as we use this site.
> It has been said before I will say it again, the advice goes ... if you are tired of the subject click unwatch or delete the notification email .


WELL SAID, JELUN!!! I applaud you!!! I was just thinking the same thing. If you don't want the discussion to continue, don't watch it anymore. There is no rule that states you MUST read or even participate in any thread started. So if you don't like what's said, don't read it. And if people really want it to die down, then stop posting in it.

I was so excited to see this new forum for me to be part of...I love sharing things with people. I am a member of 3 different car forums & love them cuz of the interaction. I hope I can enjoy this forum too...so I hope the negativity won't trickle into the other threads...


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## mishawetterling (Mar 23, 2011)

That bear in your profile pick is PRECIOUS!!!


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

No worries, PlumKrazy, for the most part the positive flows over and the negative stays in one spot. 
Welcome in.


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## PlumKrazy (Aug 7, 2011)

Thanks mishawetterling. My granddaughter loves it!! It's so soft and cuddly for her...

Thanks jelun. I hope so. The world is so negative that I use these forums to escape the every day life stuff.  

now...Back to knitting...


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

jelun said:


> And then there are the folks who claim copyright on a simple garter stitch and stst baby sweater that a newbie knitter with confidence might try.


Well said indeed. Take a look at the Easy Drop Stitch Scarf. The "designer" says you must "buy" her commercial version of the pattern if you wish to sell it. I have no problem with that, except...take a look at the Seafoam scarf on the Skacel Yarn website. Ooops, all the "designer" did was stand the Seafoam on end! It is NOT her design. In fact, she says hers is "based" on the Seafoam.

When Courier and I and others on this site talk about being designers, we're talking about spending hours and hours, days and days, and sometimes months developing something different. NOT standing a scarf on end and claiming glory.


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## silvercharms (Mar 29, 2011)

courier770 said:


> I think this discussion has run it's course. Apparently there is no "middle ground" on this subject.


Didn't read my post, eh?


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

That is why I sometimes put the word designers in quotes, not to offend those who sincerely struggle to put out a product that will bring joy to the crafter and designer both (as well as some well earned recompense to either one or both), but, because with the loose copyright demands most of the alterations that many of us make could be claimed as "design".



StitchDesigner said:


> jelun said:
> 
> 
> > And then there are the folks who claim copyright on a simple garter stitch and stst baby sweater that a newbie knitter with confidence might try.
> ...


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## kacey64 (Mar 23, 2011)

To give you one example of how copyright infringement may damage the designer. I received an email from a customer who had purchased one of my bracelet patterns. She was questioning whether or not it was actually my design since she saw a class for it advertised at her local bead store, taught by someone else. I contacted the beader teaching the class and she said she had figured the pattern out from someone's bracelet. (I had taught the class at a natinal beading show just before that.) So that situation brought my credibility into question. 
Haven't deersigned any knitted items recentlyd, but I have plans to... given time!


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## terri81455 (Aug 21, 2011)

I'm thinking I should just stick to expired copywrite free vintage patterns. There seems to be a lot of hateful "designers" out there. For me I could only conceivably knit a few anyway. It also brings up the question of why purchase patterns only for personal use when there are thousands of FREE patterns everywhere. If the designers pocketbooks were hit for this reason alone, maybe the rules would change.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

terri81455 said:


> I'm thinking I should just stick to expired copywrite free vintage patterns. There seems to be a lot of hateful "designers" out there. For me I could only conceivably knit a few anyway. It also brings up the question of why purchase patterns only for personal use when there are thousands of FREE patterns everywhere. If the designers pocketbooks were hit for this reason alone, maybe the rules would change.


I wonder how you or your spouse would feel if you suddenly got a "your fired" notice from your place of work because you were no longer useful to the company? Would you then call your former boss "hateful"? It has nothing to do with "hateful" designers. This is their source of income. The designers who copyright their patterns expect the knitter to obey the law of copyright.
How sad that there are knitters who would deny a knitting designer their income but would rather thief the design and sell the finished product without regard to copyright. It comes down to the integrity of the knitter. Will the knitter be a law-abiding citizen? or one who will break the law? And we all know without any doubt that someone who breaks the law is called a criminal.
And if the shoe fits, wear it. Dont shoot the messanger for speaking the cold hard truth. Do any of you knitters who actually uphold the right to knit any pattern and then sell the items really believe that you are above the law? Pretty shameful that it isnt only the politians who are dishonest but those who elect them also are. Look at yourself honestly the next time you look in the mirror.


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## AuntKnitty (Apr 10, 2011)

terri81455 said:


> I'm thinking I should just stick to expired copywrite free vintage patterns. There seems to be a lot of hateful "designers" out there. For me I could only conceivably knit a few anyway. * It also brings up the question of why purchase patterns only for personal use when there are thousands of FREE patterns everywhere.* If the designers pocketbooks were hit for this reason alone, maybe the rules would change.


"Hateful designers"? Because they're exerting and protecting their rights? Wow, who knew that following the law or asking that others do, made one hateful?!

Just because the pattern is free, doesn't mean that it negates the designers rights. Please read carefully. Pretty much every pattern I've gotten from Knitty.com for example, includes the caveat that it is for personal use only.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

courier770 said:


> I think this discussion has run it's course. Apparently there is no "middle ground" on this subject.


I agree with you courier. There is only black and white on this subject with no gray in between. Sayingthat the chinese do it all the time does not make it right. In New York, they are raided and busted daily for all of the knock off purses and sunglasses. They actually have a copyright infringement sqaud in NYPD to enforce these laws.


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

We all know as well that there there is nobody under the sun who hasn't broken a law. So, please, let's not get all carried away. 
Some seem to have forgotten that the question was about a denial to use the design for sale NOT the theft. Nowhere does the person you responded to with an accusation of law breaking say he/she will sell a pattern product where there was denial.

And then, dear friends, please... wrap your heads around this one, free patterns are NOT WITHOUT copyright protections. 
Permission must still be asked when one wants to sell product made from a free pattern.



5mmdpns said:


> terri81455 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm thinking I should just stick to expired copywrite free vintage patterns. There seems to be a lot of hateful "designers" out there. For me I could only conceivably knit a few anyway. It also brings up the question of why purchase patterns only for personal use when there are thousands of FREE patterns everywhere. If the designers pocketbooks were hit for this reason alone, maybe the rules would change.
> ...


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## dijewe (Mar 1, 2011)

I think this 2 dimensional medium of communication creates a lot of misunderstanding on both sides.People don't really read posts completely especially in such a devisive topic: emotions take over and the fingers hit the keyboard running!

Fact is, I did not say it was okay because the chinese do it all the time. I actually relayed a situation where this happened to my husband's business where patents, copyrights and trademarks were all registered and the chinese did it anyway.( And they do it with almost everything) Three years down the road and the lawsuit is still ongoing and going nowhere. The fake product is off the market and the original product sales are dismal - consumers don't trust it. So now it has to be re-engineered to make it more appealing which costs a huge fortune.

As a web developer, I deal with copyrights every day. People assume you can nick images off the internet and use them. Photographers copyright their images ( a very famous wildlife photographer has just had a major battle with one of the big news networks.) Illustrators copyright their drawings. Everybody is paranoid about their stuff getting stolen!!The truth is, it happens and it happens pretty much daily. You send a C&D notice, nothing happens.....so you waste gobs of time obsessing about how to nail the person who stole your stuff....it's not worth it, honestly its a waste of time. 

In my opinion, when you slap a copyright on your work, human nature will find a way to defy that copyright even if its just to see what happens if they do. Remove the copyright and the stress is off.

I honestly cannot imagine anyone on KP deliberately going out there to make millions from someone's knitting pattern. 

I am glad about this thread though. Since I am working on a knitting pattern book right now; I sent one of my patterns to a fellow KP member as she specifically requested it. I had copyrighted it; my attorney had sent me a 'canned' copyright notice to use. After reading numerous sentiments on this thread, I am going to lift the copyright.

The way I see it, if people like my patterns enough to buy them, they can use them anyway they want to except for selling the pattern itself and I will just ask nicely that they don't do that - just seems friendlier than screaming about dragging them off to court if they infringe the copyright. It sounds like a better marketing model anyway as why P$$ off your customers you know.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

dwernars

What a sweet and lovely person you must be! Thank You!

Carla


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## Chara (Jun 10, 2011)

silvercharms said:


> I used to worry about this too, but I decided that people who put patterns out to the public must expect this. I don't think it is reasonable to expect a pattern to be kept for individual use only; it IS reasonable to have copyright on the pattern itself and not sell it.
> There is no copyright on IDEAS, so I expect if you change the pattern to your liking that will be super-safe.
> I too am hoping to sell on etsy, and I intended to give credit to the pattern author, but now I am not so sure - it so quickly identifies you to any 'mad designer' about. So the pattern writer loses out, because of the unreasonableness of others.
> Now where has that ever happened before? Haha.


Seems to me if you buy a pattern, then it's yours. And if you make something using the pattern and then sell what you make, you are NOT selling the pattern, you're selling your creation. Anyhow, that's my thinking. I never make anything good enough to sell so thinking that way won't get me in any trouble if I'm wrong.

:lol:


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## terri81455 (Aug 21, 2011)

dwernars said:


> I think this 2 dimensional medium of communication creates a lot of misunderstanding on both sides.People don't really read posts completely especially in such a devisive topic: emotions take over and the fingers hit the keyboard running!
> 
> Fact is, I did not say it was okay because the chinese do it all the time. I actually relayed a situation where this happened to my husband's business where patents, copyrights and trademarks were all registered and the chinese did it anyway.( And they do it with almost everything) Three years down the road and the lawsuit is still ongoing and going nowhere. The fake product is off the market and the original product sales are dismal - consumers don't trust it. So now it has to be re-engineered to make it more appealing which costs a huge fortune.
> 
> ...


I agree totally! Boy, were my words taken out of context! After hearing some of the comments from our "friendly" knitting community on a subject that needs discussing and clarification, it is no surprise that some knitters don't even ask. They might get their heads chopped off for even the suggestion. Obviously, many of us just aren't talented enough to create our own patterns. I certainly know a few people whose patterns I won't be purchasing for ANY reason.


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## anntics (Jun 4, 2011)

There are lots of patterns both free and for purchase that specifically allow you to sell the finished products. Using these ensures that you stay within the law. The Drops design site, for example, has nearly 5000 patterns in their library for download/printing and you can sell the finished items. Knittoday and craftseller magazines also allow selling of the finished articles on a small scale. I have also built up a collection of patterns that allow you to sell items. When I am unsure I ask the copyright holder and so far have not been refused as long as it is a few items for a craft fair or charity. I already have a huge collection of books and patterns from the last 45 years that have various restrictions, so now I generally only buy those that allow selling unless it is for a specific personal project.


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## thisthat (Aug 10, 2011)

do you have a website for these frebees?


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## anntics (Jun 4, 2011)

This is drops website address. Click on the flag for your site. Clicking on any image will bring up the pattern for printing and the copyright statement gives the details.

http://www.garnstudio.com/index_lang.php

You can join knittoday's site for access to their free patterns. The copyright notice in the magazine allows the selling of finished items but not the sharing/selling of patterns.

This is about craftseller I don't know if there is a website yet. It only just released recently and I haven't read my copy yet.

http://www.ppa.co.uk/news/industry/craftseller-magazine-hits-the-newsstands/

I can't give you any others at the moment because I am away from home, but I just follow links from this site and many others to patterns and resources. When I download patterns I like and might use, I tag the filename with the copyright restrictions, e.g. PUO = personal use only; ATS = allowed to sell; and save them in separate folders. If I contact the copyright holder I save a copy of the reply with the pattern file. When I print the pattern I also print the reply and keep them together.


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## thisthat (Aug 10, 2011)

thanks- I will try that. Right now I am making socks for an order I have. I think I have altered the pattern enough that it shouldn't involve copyrights. I have been making these for over 60 years!!!!!


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## Becky O (Aug 10, 2011)

I keep wanting to Sell ,but I am a GIVER.


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## sherrybp (Oct 31, 2011)

rolyn63 said:


> Peoline said:
> 
> 
> > Not long ago there was a similar discussion on this site about selling intems, I remember someone saying, as long as you change 25% of the pattern you can sell the product for profit, I would be very careful about who I sell, and specially the name of the pattern or designer.
> ...


This is what Lion Brand's website says about the use of their posted patterns:

_"*About Patterns: Can I sell something I made using one of your patterns?*
You have permission to sell any finished item you make using a Lion Brand copyrighted pattern. However, you may not sell our patterns; they are copyrighted. If you would like to give someone a copy, please use the option on our site to send a pattern to a friend.

*NON-LION BRAND PATTERNS*
While the vast majority of patterns on our site are owned by Lion Brand, select patterns are sampled with permission from books, designers, etc. If the caption under the photo of the pattern indicates that the pattern is reproduced with permission, please contact the original copyright holder to find out their policies. We also carry a selection of physical patterns from other designers; again, please respect their copyright and policies.

*PHOTOS*
Finally, please also note that you may NOT reproduce images from our website without written permission to sell your finished items; please take your own photos of your finished items."_

I imagine the pattern books we use include similar statements telling us whether or not we're allowed to sell the items we make based on their designs. Since I usually end up modifying the patterns, yarns and/or colors, my creations rarely resemble the original designs so hopefully this is a moot point for me.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

sherrybp said:


> Since I usually end up modifying the patterns, yarns and/or colors, my creations rarely resemble the original designs so hopefully this is a moot point for me.


Changing the yarn or color *is not* enough. You may still be in violation of copyright law if you sell the item. Give away is always ok. But if you see nothing but the basic copyright statement or, especially, if you see "All Rights Reserved" you cannot sell without permission. Most designers *assume* people will change yarn and/or color. Oh, yeah, adding or subtracting a few stitches or adding/subtracting a repeat is not a significant change in a pattern.


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## sherrybp (Oct 31, 2011)

StitchDesigner said:


> sherrybp said:
> 
> 
> > Since I usually end up modifying the patterns, yarns and/or colors, my creations rarely resemble the original designs so hopefully this is a moot point for me.
> ...


This is the Sugar N Cream pattern I used initially: http://sugarncream.com/data/pattern/pdf/Lily_SugarnCream302_cr_bag.en_US.pdf

I didn't see any copyright info on the pattern itself but there is an "ARR" one at the bottom of Lily's webpage. Does this mean only the site layout is copyrighted or does this statement apply to the site's content? If it cover the patterns too, then Lily needs to notify the sellers on Etsy who are in violation. At least I altered the pattern mainly by moving the strap, plus I haven't sold anything yet. Some of the people on Etsy are making money on what appear to be exact copies of the pattern.


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