# Warning on more copy right laws in the UK



## knittingsue (May 31, 2011)

A friend of mine bought a knitting pattern from her local craft shop, she also bought all the wool that she needed to knit the cardigan with. After she had knitted it she sold it on a on line site. Yesterday she received a letter telling her that she was being taken to court as she had broken the copy right laws on the cardigan.She had knitted it in the same colours as the picture on the pattern. She has been told that if you look at the back of a knitting pattern it tells you there that "It is sold on the condition that it is only used for non- commercial purposes". this means that if you knit some thing from a bought pattern do not do it in the same colours as the picture on the pattern. the copy right law not only covers the pattern but it also covers the colours the pattern is knitted in. so if you have a nice pattern that you want to knit and then sell, change one or two of the colours that the pattern is printed in.


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## Leonora (Apr 22, 2011)

That's worth remembering, thanks for the heads up. Leonora.


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## Poledra65 (Jul 6, 2011)

That's good information, thank you for sharing that.


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

knittingsue said:


> A friend of mine bought a knitting pattern from her local craft shop, she also bought all the wool that she needed to knit the cardigan with. After she had knitted it she sold it on a on line site. Yesterday she received a letter telling her that she was being taken to court as she had broken the copy right laws on the cardigan.She had knitted it in the same colours as the picture on the pattern. She has been told that if you look at the back of a knitting pattern it tells you there that "It is sold on the condition that it is only used for non- commercial purposes". this means that if you knit some thing from a bought pattern do not do it in the same colours as the picture on the pattern. the copy right law not only covers the pattern but it also covers the colours the pattern is knitted in. so if you have a nice pattern that you want to knit and then sell, change one or two of the colours that the pattern is printed in.


Actually, colors have nothing at all to do with it. The line you quoted from the copyright notice, _"It is sold on the condition that it is only used for non- commercial purposes"_ means they don't want you selling either the pattern or any items made from the pattern, *regardless of color *. The author of the pattern does not want anyone selling what is made from it-- personal use only means you can make it for yourself or for gifts. No selling.

Unfortunately, you have to read the copyright and follow the stipulations therein. Whatever they say in the copyright is the rules you have to play by. If you don't agree, don't buy or use that pattern.

It seems like most people ignor the legalities in the copyrights, but here is an example of someone getting stung by doing just that. Whether the designer wins the lawsuit or not, your friend will be out money for legal representation. If I were her, I would contact the designer, apologize, and offer to compensate her out of the profit from the sale of the sweater, in exchange for her dropping the lawsuit. If it goes to court, it gets expensive, and the designer will most likely win.

Forget about changing colors or even modifying the style a little to get around the copyright notice. That is not the case. If you want to knit items for sale, try coming up with your own designs. That's the safest way. If you have to use a pattern, be sure it is allowed to be sold before you use it. You can usually find a way to contact a designer or publisher to ask. Some do allow this, so ASK.


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## petitenwuk (Apr 1, 2011)

The courts over here would throw it out they have better things to do than take people to court over knitting patterns. It is wasting the courts time and money, she should just get a warning.


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## Dreamweaver (Feb 1, 2011)

It is, and always will be, a slippery slope. In a way, I feel it is unfair that you cannot sell an item that you have done all the work on.. You are selling your labor. Some of us are not able to design our own - and I feel it is a compliment to the designer that you like the work well enough to take the time to duplicate and that you think others will enjoy it as well. After all, the people buying the article are not likely to just stumble across the pattern or they may not knit at all. None-the-less... That is the law. 
It is really a problem with magazines - not always easy to even find out who designed it, let alone how to contact them.....

I have the same dilemna with items I weave. If I make a placemat out of an age old weaving pattern, I feel free to sell it. If I make one that someone has put in an Interweave Collection, I have to study it very carefully to see if there is anything original about it.


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

petitenwuk said:


> The courts over here would throw it out they have better things to do than take people to court over knitting patterns. It is wasting the courts time and money, she should just get a warning.


Wouldn't the offender pay the court costs, if the judgement was against her? That's how it is done in America. If a law is broken and charges are brought, it is the court's job to enforce the law. They are not there to pick and choose.


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## petitenwuk (Apr 1, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> petitenwuk said:
> 
> 
> > The courts over here would throw it out they have better things to do than take people to court over knitting patterns. It is wasting the courts time and money, she should just get a warning.
> ...


Yes the offender would pay the court costs if it did go to court and they won, but over here the courts would throw it out. Not sure about the small claims court thought I have not had experience with them. Our laws are different to American laws.


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

petitenwuk said:


> Sewbizgirl said:
> 
> 
> > petitenwuk said:
> ...


Actually this is an issue of intellectual property rights. Not so insignificant as you might think. It involves profiting from someone else's work.


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## knittingsue (May 31, 2011)

just to up date you all on this. My friend has got 14 days to reply to the courts, she has to state where & when she bought the pattern and the wool from and how much she paid for it, she also has to say how much she sold it for. She has been told that the fine for this could be any thing from £200 to £2,000. time will tell.


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## insanitynz (Mar 14, 2011)

how stupid i doubt it would stand up in court


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## petitenwuk (Apr 1, 2011)

insanitynz said:


> how stupid i doubt it would stand up in court


Thats is what I said. The courts have more serious things to do than this.


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## petitenwuk (Apr 1, 2011)

knittingsue said:


> just to up date you all on this. My friend has got 14 days to reply to the courts, she has to state where & when she bought the pattern and the wool from and how much she paid for it, she also has to say how much she sold it for. She has been told that the fine for this could be any thing from £200 to £2,000. time will tell.


She should get a solicitor, I wouldn't do this myself he would advise her what to do. 
I wish her all the luck in the world.

The time and effort she put into that garment should come into it and if this was her first time knitting the price of the needles etc should as well.


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## knittingsue (May 31, 2011)

She is seeing a solicitor on Monday. She has been knitting for over 40 years and she started to sell on line about a year ago. I'll let everyone know how she gets on.


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## petitenwuk (Apr 1, 2011)

knittingsue said:


> She is seeing a solicitor on Monday. She has been knitting for over 40 years and she started to sell on line about a year ago. I'll let everyone know how she gets on.


Yes please do, tell her I wish her well and let us know who designed the pattern. I will not buy any of her/their patterns and I am sure a lot more will say that on here too.


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

Yes, please let us know how this turns out for her. It's a hard lesson... It's going to cost her money, any way she goes.

I'm wondering if it was an Alice Starmore design. She has sued people before, and won. But she's not the only one.


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## battye one (May 23, 2011)

alan dart said you may sell his things that you knit from his patterns, as long as you acknowledge its his pattern but made by you. on his web site, he even has tags that one can copy to put with the knitted article. maybe others should do something similar


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## Aslan (May 22, 2011)

I agree with petitenwuk - boycott the company. At the same time take note of the advice about colour or tweak the pattern so that ir is no longer a faithful copy.
Thanks for the info.


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## theo (Jan 23, 2011)

Hi Sue 

Thank you for offering to look through your patterns for some cute baby things I AN VERY ANXIOUS TO MAKE SOMETHING USING THE EYLETE LACE..if you have any other patterns you care to share that are great holiday gifts i would appricate them stay in touch if I CAN share anything i do i will be very happy to do so theo


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## CamillaDesertMouse (Mar 19, 2011)

I agree with Dream..it is a very slippery slope...believe me I understand the main purpose of the
copy right laws is to protect each of us and for the most part I agree...When I work hard..some work years to create their work..and offer my item/ idea etc for sale..I would most certainly be put out if someone violated the law for their own personal gain..especially if they claimed it was their own.
I do not feel most disregard the law..but enough do to make it bad for others...
I like Alan Darts idea..he has to know others do his work and sell items for an income or any type of profit..it is very generous of him to agree to that with stipulations.
Some areas of the law are so grey it would confuse some.
I worked for an attorney many years ago...and the way some laws read are not black and white..it is the grey areas that most get sued on.

Camilla



Dreamweaver said:


> It is, and always will be, a slippery slope. In a way, I feel it is unfair that you cannot sell an item that you have done all the work on.. You are selling your labor. Some of us are not able to design our own - and I feel it is a compliment to the designer that you like the work well enough to take the time to duplicate and that you think others will enjoy it as well. After all, the people buying the article are not likely to just stumble across the pattern or they may not knit at all. None-the-less... That is the law.
> It is really a problem with magazines - not always easy to even find out who designed it, let alone how to contact them.....
> 
> I have the same dilemna with items I weave. If I make a placemat out of an age old weaving pattern, I feel free to sell it. If I make one that someone has put in an Interweave Collection, I have to study it very carefully to see if there is anything original about it.


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## mombr4 (Apr 21, 2011)

This has happenes here is the states also, someone bought a pattern and sold the items made from it. One of the designers saw it on line and did take them to court. The out come was she had to pay the damages along with a % for every one she sold, so in the long run it wasn't worth selling them and not abiding by the copyright law that was noted on the back of the pattern she used. It didn't have anything to do with the color she made it in, which was different then in the picture.

There are many designers who do scan the internet looking for their designs or people selling items made from their pattens and if their patterns says it can't be sold they do have the right to take legal action and many will not hesitate.


This is not only with making a item from a pattern and selling it, this also happens when people share patterns that have copyright on them, if not done privately that is against copyright laws also.

Some designers join groups to see if people are sharing their patterns, with the internet it has made it very easy for them to find these people. I know someone who did this and had to pay the company not only a $ amount but a % for each pattern she shared.


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## newkntr (Jun 25, 2011)

This is an interesting line of discussion. I'm not familiar with UK copyright but, in the US I had been under the impression that once patterns are sold, you paid for and own the rights to use the pattern unless, the copyright states otherwise which in this case it appears it does. I've always asked when a copyright or designer specifies that you do and had good results. The designer then gets recognition of their design and work for allowing the use of the pattern. Advertising of sort.


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## ZenHooker (Jul 31, 2011)

Please cite this alleged court case as I cannot find any such court case in the US. Here's a rundown on the inapplicability of copyright law to patterns for knitting, crochet, sewing, etc.

http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml

"Useful items, such as clothing, cannot be copyrighted."

Neither can recipes. The only thing copyrighted in a recipe is the presentation - the written instructions, accompanying photos, etc. That's because it's a "useful item" and no recipe is truly "unique" (just as no sewing, crochet, or knitting pattern is truly unique, ALL are based on existing stitches (ingredients) that stretch back to the dawn of time).

That's not to say there aren't fruit loops out there intent on trying to convince you otherwise. But there is no legal precedent on THIS side of the pond.

Perhaps things are different in the UK, but not here in the US.


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## Benji (Jun 5, 2011)

petitenwuk said:


> knittingsue said:
> 
> 
> > She is seeing a solicitor on Monday. She has been knitting for over 40 years and she started to sell on line about a year ago. I'll let everyone know how she gets on.
> ...


I too wish your friend the best of luck, hopefully she will be able to get a "Free first consultation" with the solicitor. I am also in Lancashire and will also not buy the patterns of the designer - we need to make a stand.


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## jemima (Mar 26, 2011)

So does this mean in future .If somebody puts their work on here .Will it be naughty to say where the pattern came from. There are far moore inportantant things for courts to sort out.


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## lvchocl8nknitting (Mar 3, 2011)

petitenwuk said:


> The courts over here would throw it out they have better things to do than take people to court over knitting patterns. It is wasting the courts time and money, she should just get a warning.


The writer's location was Wales.


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## jltrask (Feb 18, 2011)

Copyrights are for the protection of the person who creates something - a pattern, a painting, a song, a book. There is no difference between using someone's pattern without permission and then selling what you made than changing a name and using their book or making a record and selling it without paying for the rights to use the song. It's always better to ask first. Rights for artists are difficult to figure out sometimes.
One of the reason courts sometimes deal with these small issues is because sometimes the small issues can change or clarify the law for the future.


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## roseknit (Apr 2, 2011)

How petty to bring a lawsuit against your friend, I hope they throw this out, just as they do with more serious crimes I have read about.


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## jltrask (Feb 18, 2011)

If there is a problem, you should go to the person first and talk to them, or send a letter. This type of thing costs a lot of money for both people and wastes the court's time. Even if the case is thrown out for one reason or another, someone has to take the time to deal with it. Still, if it's a clear violation or clearly not a violation, the Court can make a decision without hearing, just based on the filings. Then you'd have to appeal it, which can be expensive, to attempt to change the outcome.


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## pugmom5 (Feb 19, 2011)

petitenwuk said:


> The courts over here would throw it out they have better things to do than take people to court over knitting patterns. It is wasting the courts time and money, she should just get a warning.


I think we are "sue" happy. I was going to the hospital once a month or more for my PKD. Then they happened to find cancer. I had a lawyer call me to ask if I wanted to sue the hospital for not finding the cancer sooner. I am sorry, I was going to the hospital for PKD, I was lucky they found the cancer.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

This is not a petty issue. Copy right is to protect the work of others. Why would you boycott a company that is taking the time to protect it's "product". While these laws seem trivial to some, they are important and the courts cannot throw the case out. That would set a legal precedent and NO one's work would be safe.

I have several patterns that are copy righted. My purpose is so that no one can duplicate the patterns and distribute them (either for free or payment). Personally I wouldn't care if they were used to craft items to be sold but I would want the seller to state the source of the pattern.


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

ZenHooker said:


> Please cite this alleged court case as I cannot find any such court case in the US. Here's a rundown on the inapplicability of copyright law to patterns for knitting, crochet, sewing, etc.
> 
> http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml
> 
> ...


That tabberone article is merely opinion, not a legal ruling, and is talking about sewing patterns, not knit or crochet patterns. Sewing patterns are TEMPLATES, (shapes). Knitting patterns are WORDS (written 'copy').

Go ahead and keep spreading this misinformation about copyright, and defying copyright law, and people will pay for their ignorance by having to defend their illegal behavior in lawsuits.


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

mombr4 said:


> There are many designers who do scan the internet looking for their designs or people selling items made from their pattens and if their patterns says it can't be sold they do have the right to take legal action and many will not hesitate.
> 
> This is not only with making a item from a pattern and selling it, this also happens when people share patterns that have copyright on them, if not done privately that is against copyright laws also.


Distributing copyrighted patterns is actually just as illegal when done privately, it's merely harder to discover.


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## kgiles326 (Jul 31, 2011)

I have a friend who IS a designer. Not knit designs, but art to wear clothes. She tells me that a person may legally copy a design IF they may seven changes to that design. This is according to American copyright law, so don't know about the UK. So conceivably, one could buy a pattern and make changes such as buttonholes, sleeve length, etc. etc. Not that easy to come up with 7 changes to a simple design.


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## Shawie (Jul 22, 2011)

I never thought about it and never sold anything I knitted. But being a writer I have dealt with copyright laws on my books for years. It's the same with songwriters. I understand why a knitting or crochet pattern would be copyrighted and certainly will watch for any laws regarding them in the future. The copyright laws in this country are among the strictest we have.

Thanks for calling that to our attention.


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## Sutallee Stitcher (Apr 2, 2011)

I for one enjoy the links to where people purchased or found patterns. No laws are broken. I shy away from the cut and paste or scanned patterns. I have purchased several patterns/books that have been shown here and am glad to support the designers efforts. As for copyright laws...you should read your patterns down to the fine print and not do things that are you were instructed not to.


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## pleclerc (Jan 17, 2011)

Thanks for the information. Regardless of how we feel about it,
copyright laws are law and this warning should be sufficient to all to avoid similar incidents. I'm sorry this happened and hope your sincere apology is accepted by the designer. Never know if the
warning letter is just a warning or if it will go to court. Most knitters are good people and your written apology for this one-time sale should make amends. Patricia


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## wmcav06 (Jan 29, 2011)

I really don't understand those who don't want items sold that are made from their patterns--that is free advertising for them. Isn't it true that you want to see ALL the designs made by specific designers? How many times have you asked or have been asked where did you get that pattern or whose pattern is that???? I believe the old adage applies--cut off their nose to spite their face. I would shy away from any patterns from that designer, there are too many others out there who love to see the products of their designs are good enough to be sold.


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## bizzyknitter (May 10, 2011)

Does anyone know who the designer was?


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## scrappinmagic (Apr 29, 2011)

wmcav06 said:


> I really don't understand those who don't want items sold that are made from their patterns--that is free advertising for them. Isn't it true that you want to see ALL the designs made by specific designers? How many times have you asked or have been asked where did you get that pattern or whose pattern is that???? I believe the old adage applies--cut off their nose to spite their face. I would shy away from any patterns from that designer, there are too many others out there who love to see the products of their designs are good enough to be sold.


It is free advertising as long as it is stated on the article who designed the pattern....but I've been to craft fairs where people do not specify where they got the pattern from. I designed a couple of small items and have the patterns for sale on ravelry....but I state in the copyright that the items may NOT be sold on the internet, but can be sold at a local craft fair.....because I too sell these items on the internet.


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## Leya (May 3, 2011)

Would the copyright laws only apply to copying and reselling the pattern itself? I would think then the manufacturers of the yarn would have a law suit as well for using their yarn in the finished product.


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## scrappinmagic (Apr 29, 2011)

Leya said:


> Would the copyright laws only apply to copying and reselling the pattern itself? I would think then the manufacturers of the yarn would have a law suit as well for using their yarn in the finished product.


If it states on the patterns that the item made is for personal use ONLY...then you cannot sell what you make from it. Most only state that the pattern is for personal use only and you cannot redistribute the pattern in any way, sell OR share for free. Some will state that you cannot sell what you make from the pattern.


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## elizabethmb (Jul 31, 2011)

I am sorry that this causes all of us so much inconvenience. But - the designer might be making his/her living at this and deserves to be financially secure. Perhaps as so many have said, creating a knitted object from someone's pattern is very flattering and an acknowledgement that on the final product would be sufficient. We are aware of plagiarism in writing and this is an example of it in art.


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## missyern (Jan 23, 2011)

I think it is so unfair they tell us we cannot sell the items we make. We pay for the pattern, we pay for the yarn, and the tools necessary to make the item. What are we to do with the items? Put them away until we die and our families inherit them? Several times I have made items that attract a lot of attention. Our friends and neighbors want one also. Are we forced to make them and give them away for free? After 60 years of knitting and crocheting I would have an awful lot of items stored if I could not sell something once in awhile.


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## Dory (May 4, 2011)

Sorry to hear about the dilema your friend is in. I wish her all the luck and look forward to the outcome. Hopefully it will be her favor.


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## scrappinmagic (Apr 29, 2011)

missyern said:


> I think it is so unfair they tell us we cannot sell the items we make. We pay for the pattern, we pay for the yarn, and the tools necessary to make the item. What are we to do with the items? Put them away until we die and our families inherit them? Several times I have made items that attract a lot of attention. Our friends and neighbors want one also. Are we forced to make them and give them away for free? After 60 years of knitting and crocheting I would have an awful lot of items stored if I could not sell something once in awhile.


actually, it's not unfair. You will find MANY patterns that you can sell the finished item from. Most of the ones you make from the books you purchase you can sell. It's when the pattern states you cannot sell the finished item is where you can run into problems. But it's always best to ask first anyway.


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

Or simply ask permission. 
After all, if people want to make money from selling patterns they must be flexible.



Sewbizgirl said:


> knittingsue said:
> 
> 
> > A friend of mine bought a knitting pattern from her local craft shop, she also bought all the wool that she needed to knit the cardigan with. After she had knitted it she sold it on a on line site. Yesterday she received a letter telling her that she was being taken to court as she had broken the copy right laws on the cardigan.She had knitted it in the same colours as the picture on the pattern. She has been told that if you look at the back of a knitting pattern it tells you there that "It is sold on the condition that it is only used for non- commercial purposes". this means that if you knit some thing from a bought pattern do not do it in the same colours as the picture on the pattern. the copy right law not only covers the pattern but it also covers the colours the pattern is knitted in. so if you have a nice pattern that you want to knit and then sell, change one or two of the colours that the pattern is printed in.
> ...


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

I bet my not so little butt that if your friend did some investigating she would find that the "design" is not so original, it's worth a try.



petitenwuk said:


> The courts over here would throw it out they have better things to do than take people to court over knitting patterns. It is wasting the courts time and money, she should just get a warning.


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## dinah d (May 15, 2011)

This is becoming a sad world, how many people can knit and are will to buy things from people who can,so now we have whatch what colour or wool??? we knit in, where will it stop?


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## wmcav06 (Jan 29, 2011)

I won't buy a pattern with that restriction. The designers should make a decision--do the want to be a pattern designer or sell items they make exclusively-- They want their cake and eat it to. It's their option to do so, but my option not to buy their patterns. There are too many out there to restrict myself should I want to sell something I made.


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

While I agree with you, the law is the law. Too bad it is not clarified to some extent for lay people.



wmcav06 said:


> I won't buy a pattern with that restriction. The designers should make a decision--do the want to be a pattern designer or sell items they make exclusively-- They want their cake and eat it to. It's their option to do so, but my option not to buy their patterns. There are too many out there to restrict myself should I want to sell something I made.


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## KnitPicker (Jan 19, 2011)

It used to be in the USA - I'm not sure it still is - that if you wanted to sell an item that was copyrighted, you could change it by 2% (or was it 20% - someone out there knows) and it would be considered yours. I was a dress designer for a while and found that if I liked a design and copied it but changed the buttons on a blouse, it was legal (at the time). 

At the same time, if someone designs a product, whatever it is, without changing it, they are due copyright protection in the full sense. In this case, the woman really didn't understand and she's not a corporation (I'm presuming), but rather a cottage industry. The company & designer should be understanding.

I think the best she could do at this point is what was suggested: an apology goes a long way stipulating she didn't understand. And tell them she won't do it again, offering part of the profit (they probably won't take it) and sincerely be careful and honor copyrights from then on. She could check to see how much change in a pattern will constitute it hers from now on. I hope she isn't discouraged from doing this. Just needs to be a bit more careful in the future.


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## Christi (Feb 3, 2011)

If I sell something that I made from a pattern I just sell to people I know......not through the internet.


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## Christi (Feb 3, 2011)

I was just thinking....it isn't really different if someone buys or gets a pattern for free and shares it with someone versus getting a book from the library......in a sense the library books with patterns in it share the patterns also. Just a thought I had.......


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## janayoga (Jul 13, 2011)

Intellectual property just like material property has ownership. If I design something and copyrite it I have to prove it is an original concept, I am claiming ownership of my original idea/design. People understandably want credit for their creations, and some give permission to share, some do not. When you sell an item you are selling your labor, not the idea, and the law says the idea must be protected. This is not a trivial area of the law and I think we must respect it just as we would not dream of stealing someone's authorship of a written project.


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## Homeshppr (Feb 28, 2011)

I read posts on this "copyright" topic frequently and I think the bottom line is: "Be Careful" The laws ARE there and they CAN be enforced. Read copyright regulations carefully on any pattern you are creating to distribute in any way. 

Pattern designers with copyrighted work can (and do) easliy search the internet to find their work being sold for profit--and many of them WILL file suit.

Have you noticed when you google that posts from this website will frequently pop up in your google searches? We do NOT want to put KP site administrators at risk of lawsuits by our actions here--whether they be innocent or intentional.


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## AuntKnitty (Apr 10, 2011)

petitenwuk said:


> The courts over here would throw it out they have better things to do than take people to court over knitting patterns. It is wasting the courts time and money, she should just get a warning.


I doubt that sincerely. Copyright infringement, regardless of whether it's a knitting pattern, clothing design or writing from a book, is a serious issue and is taken seriously by the US court system.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

petitenwuk said:


> knittingsue said:
> 
> 
> > She is seeing a solicitor on Monday. She has been knitting for over 40 years and she started to sell on line about a year ago. I'll let everyone know how she gets on.
> ...


It might be different in England, but the designer of any type pattern, knitting, cross-stitch, etc. here in the U.S. usually only gets a small percentage of the retail price of the pattern. The publisher, distributor, shop owner also get their share. If a pattern sells for $6.00 (3.65 British Pound Sterling) the designer will actually see very little of that after everyone else gets their share. She comes up with the design, charts it out, knits it up, makes corrections if necessary, and then calculates changes for the various sizes the pattern comes in. I seriously doubt I would want to put in all that effort for $1 or $2. Of course if her design was very popular and she sold a lot, she would obviously make more. Or if she became famous for her designs like Alice Starmore for example she might be little better off. Also if she were a prolific designer the work would still be there but she'd have a lot more pattern designs to sell.


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## MarySandra (Mar 23, 2011)

insanitynz said:


> how stupid i doubt it would stand up in court


Really when you think about it I'm not sure if it is stupid. It takes time and skill to create design and patterns and many people make their living doing this. You actually aren't even to pass on a free pattern that you have gotten from a web site. You are to give the web site address to who ever wants that pattern because the point of many free patterns is to get you to that web site.


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## jmoster80 (Mar 18, 2011)

Thanks for that information! I guess I assumed if you bought a pattern, it was yours to do as you please.
Is changing just the colour enough? Do you know if this also applies to online free patterns? If you change just something minor, can you sell it?


knittingsue said:


> A friend of mine bought a knitting pattern from her local craft shop, she also bought all the wool that she needed to knit the cardigan with. After she had knitted it she sold it on a on line site. Yesterday she received a letter telling her that she was being taken to court as she had broken the copy right laws on the cardigan.She had knitted it in the same colours as the picture on the pattern. She has been told that if you look at the back of a knitting pattern it tells you there that "It is sold on the condition that it is only used for non- commercial purposes". this means that if you knit some thing from a bought pattern do not do it in the same colours as the picture on the pattern. the copy right law not only covers the pattern but it also covers the colours the pattern is knitted in. so if you have a nice pattern that you want to knit and then sell, change one or two of the colours that the pattern is printed in.


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## mwcb2002 (Mar 15, 2011)

My 2 cents, Why do they have their patterns up if not for people to use them.Mostly than writing the patterns it is much time someone put on to do the product, and who knows it may be selling their work is bringing a little fund to pay the bills. If selling the patterns only would not be right but really putting hours and hours on a sweater to sell for pennies, it is not that they are making a fortune with this, just a way to have some money on hand, now if this was making them rich and wealthy I would agree that then ok share with me the wealth as it is from the pattern that you are making a lot of money but come on for the price they can get from these things. Sometime they just can get enough to cover the price of the wool and nothing for their labor, as first of all these ladies love what they do so even if it is to cover just for the wool so what the patter did just help them go a little quicker instead of stopping and counting rows and points. I think that the law would be if you don't want people to copy just hide in your stach. I may be wrong but this s what I think.


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## Homeshppr (Feb 28, 2011)

I have a question for those who know more about this than I every will:

If we create a requested item from ANY pattern (purchased or FREE) for friends/family---is it okay to charge them for materials and labor? I've heard 2-3x cost of supplies is a fair rate to charge for our time. And is this different than "selling for profit?" To me, it seems like a "fine line"--but it is certainly different than marketing at craft shows or selling on the internet.


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## venicesusie (Feb 19, 2011)

This IS serious. The designer had to pay for her copyright and nobody has the right to violate it.


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## mothermartha (Mar 1, 2011)

Oh, no they wouldn't. It would be small claims court where you can have a lawyer or not, and I believe we have the same law on selling. Look at the back of some of the patterns you buy or esp ones you buy online.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Bea 465 said:


> petitenwuk said:
> 
> 
> > knittingsue said:
> ...


Bea 463, You are so right.
I do carving on antique pelt boards, bowls, rolling pin,ect. I work very hard to do my santa designs on these objects. I then sell them. I love my work, but do not make that much money on what I make. I have copyrighted all my designs.
I recieved a catalog, listing a class that someone was doing santa's on new rolling pins. Not just making them but collecting money from each person to profit from it. I called said person and told them that I had a copyright( and it does cost money to get this) on this, and he could not profit from it in that way. I might have given him permission if he had just ask me and exknowledge it was my work. I work very hard doing these, and usually get less then 30.00 dollars a per item. I had to first work out my design, and spend hours carving it until it was right, Then I had to make these items to sell, and that would take me any where from two weeks plus. 
You are paying one price for that pattern you buy, it is your chose of yarn, and you will make more then that designer selling them for, come on is that fair. Boycott if you must, but I dare you to make your own designs and see how you would feel if it were done to you.
Also most patterns state on their patterns, if you ask written permission, they just might allow you to do the pattern to sell.. It only takes a little time, to do this, and you might find the person is very nice and will share with you. 
I will get off my soap box now. But I still feel that the designer has ever right to ask that you honor their work.


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## jmoster80 (Mar 18, 2011)

Sounds like sage advice.


jelun said:


> Or simply ask permission.
> After all, if people want to make money from selling patterns they must be flexible.
> 
> 
> ...


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

There are designers who make it clear that you can sell their items. One example is the site Strings and Things. 
Suzetta of Suzies Stuff is open to requests. It is an individual decision, I think.



jmoster80 said:


> Thanks for that information! I guess I assumed if you bought a pattern, it was yours to do as you please.
> Is changing just the colour enough? Do you know if this also applies to online free patterns? If you change just something minor, can you sell it?
> 
> 
> ...


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## jentonic (Jul 24, 2011)

My sentiments entirely. Perhaps they should spend their time getting their time getting the real criminals to court and charged!


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## jentonic (Jul 24, 2011)

Good information, thanks for that.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

> There are many designers who do scan the internet looking for their designs or people selling items made from their pattens and if their patterns says it can't be sold they do have the right to take legal action and many will not hesitate.
> 
> Some designers join groups to see if people are sharing their patterns, with the internet it has made it very easy for them to find these people. I know someone who did this and had to pay the company not only a $ amount but a % for each pattern she shared.


There is/was a cross-stitch designer who had a huge number of fans who, when searching the internet or in stores spotted one of her designs being used/sold, would tell her in details what they had seen and where so she could have her lawyer investigate and contact them.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> ZenHooker said:
> 
> 
> > Please cite this alleged court case as I cannot find any such court case in the US. Here's a rundown on the inapplicability of copyright law to patterns for knitting, crochet, sewing, etc.
> ...


Actually the Tabarrone case was about Disney threatening to sue because this woman used fabric imprinted with Disney characters to make nursery items(?) or baby items. It wasn't about the patterns. Disney did not think she should be able to use fabric with their copyrighted characters to make items to sell, only for personal use. The woman filed suit in Federal District Court in Colorado and Disney, with all their lawyers, backed down. This woman filed her lawsuit on her own behalf, in Federal Court, without an attorney.


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## Jansk (May 1, 2011)

Copyright infringement is taken very seriously in the UK and the courts are taking more and more notice. I work for a and Intellectual Property lawyer in the UK. He spends a lot of time trying to sort out the messes people have got themselves into and it's not cheap, the court fees are high nevermind the fine and technically it is a criminal offence. Who knows on a bad day a judge might decide to make an example of the lady making profit from a copyrighted pattern and send her to prison. Think very carefully when trying to sell anything made from a copyrighted pattern. Jan


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## Jansk (May 1, 2011)

They are real criminals, they are stealing. 

Jan


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## jltrask (Feb 18, 2011)

I work for a Judge. While in our little community I have not seen actual copyright cases, I have read about them. Criminals are sometimes prosecuted for stealing $5 worth of goods from a store. Sometimes because they're repeat offenders, but also because the law is the law. It can be difficult to know, even for lawyers, when you are infringing on the rights of others. That's why we have to have judges. Small claims court is where most civil cases for small amounts of money are handled. But it's expensive, so must people don't file about small amounts of money. I expect the issue in this case is more about the person advertising the items on-line, which is a little more serious than making it for a friend. 
I have heard recently in the national news about somebody being prosecuted for copying a DVD. Not a company that sells pirated movies, but an individual who copied a DVD. Criminal charges! The lawyers seem to be making an example of this one person. Maybe that's the case here.
I don't know what is morally right in this case. Perhaps we can just charge for our time and material? And give credit to whoever designed it. With permission, of course.
I still think whoever designed this should have contacted her directly first to see if they could work it out.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

mwcb2002 said:


> If selling the patterns only would not be right but really putting hours and hours on a sweater to sell for pennies, it is not that they are making a fortune with this, just a way to have some money on hand, now if this was making them rich and wealthy I would agree that then ok share with me the wealth as it is from the pattern that you are making a lot of money but come on for the price they can get from these things. Sometime they just can get enough to cover the price of the wool and nothing for their labor


Most people don't realize the time in addition to the material costs that go into any finished needleart project. You seldom earn minimum wage for your efforts.


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## Mrs. Mac (Feb 10, 2011)

knittingsue said:


> A friend of mine bought a knitting pattern from her local craft shop, she also bought all the wool that she needed to knit the cardigan with. After she had knitted it she sold it on a on line site. Yesterday she received a letter telling her that she was being taken to court as she had broken the copy right laws on the cardigan.She had knitted it in the same colours as the picture on the pattern. She has been told that if you look at the back of a knitting pattern it tells you there that "It is sold on the condition that it is only used for non- commercial purposes". this means that if you knit some thing from a bought pattern do not do it in the same colours as the picture on the pattern. the copy right law not only covers the pattern but it also covers the colours the pattern is knitted in. so if you have a nice pattern that you want to knit and then sell, change one or two of the colours that the pattern is printed in.


I would like to read the law for myself. Was the friend being sued for damages, and how much do the lawyers expect? This sounds ridiculous, but then, who knows?

It boggles the mind to think that on line sites are being monitored for this sort of infraction. Thanks for the information.


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## ingrambead (May 24, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Bea 465 said:
> 
> 
> > petitenwuk said:
> ...


I have experienced the same thing with my beadwork. I published a pattern in Beadwork Magazine. I did the work, sent in the photographic illustrations which the magazine changed into drawings. A woman in Texas decided to teach my bracelet claiming it was her own work. BTW she was teaching at a Catholic school. ????? I asked her to stop and she kept saying she "knew" how to do this on her own. She didn't even know the tribal history of the technique nor how I developed into the contemporary item she was teaching. She finally stopped, at least stopped having the information posted on line where I could find it.
On the other hand I was contacted by the magazine several times for permission for someone to teach the bracelet. I happily granted permission for FREE. The only stipulation from me was that they give me credit for the design and the Magazine usually requests that the students all purchase their own copy of the article. Having someone profit from my hard work and taking credit for my work as their own is not a form of flattery in any way. My soapbox rant completed.


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## MarySandra (Mar 23, 2011)

mwcb2002 said:


> My 2 cents, Why do they have their patterns up if not for people to use them.Mostly than writing the patterns it is much time someone put on to do the product, and who knows it may be selling their work is bringing a little fund to pay the bills. If selling the patterns only would not be right but really putting hours and hours on a sweater to sell for pennies, it is not that they are making a fortune with this, just a way to have some money on hand, now if this was making them rich and wealthy I would agree that then ok share with me the wealth as it is from the pattern that you are making a lot of money but come on for the price they can get from these things. Sometime they just can get enough to cover the price of the wool and nothing for their labor, as first of all these ladies love what they do so even if it is to cover just for the wool so what the patter did just help them go a little quicker instead of stopping and counting rows and points. I think that the law would be if you don't want people to copy just hide in your stach. I may be wrong but this s what I think.


 So much work goes into doing this and it really should be respected. I'm grateful that these people are out there who will put so much time and effort to create something for me that I couldn't possible do and with any luck I make a finished product that I love. I'm sure most of us don't think this to the end because we have so many patterns available to us. We don't think of the living breathing person behind the pattern who hopes this will help pay their bills while they are doing something they love.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

Ingrambead, I find it amazing how some people feel they are entitled to use the creative work of others to their own advancement. I agree that most designers, when asked, will give permission for others to sell their designs as long as the designer is acknowledged.


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## pugmom5 (Feb 19, 2011)

I do machine embroidery. I BUY lots of designs. Sometimes the design comes with "do not sell items made with this design". I do not. One designer says you can sell items with her designs as long as you state "made by xxxx, design from xxxx.com" 

I have also sold many knitted designs from others...but I contact the designer first to ask for permission. I have never had anyone say no. As long as I stated who's design it was. (gave the pattern name, designer and web site along with yarn description on the tag) I do this with free and bought patterns. (my ex husbands brother is a copywrite and tax lawyer, so I have always done my selling this way...just habit)

And if someone, even my daughter wants my pattern, I will tell them where to buy it or buy them a copy.


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## Joy Marshall (Apr 6, 2011)

I make entrelac hats which I sell with every cent going to charity. Even though most designers do not mind if you are going to sell these for non-profit, it is still best to ask them. I emailed the designer of the first hat I made and she was happy to give me her permission. Then I started designing my own with so many changes to the original pattern I don't think anyone could claim copyright.


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## yarnstars (Feb 26, 2011)

I bought some machine embroidery patterns at ebay for my embroidery machine. The seller said they were her designs and that she was free to sell them, and they could be used anyway I wanted. Well I bought 2 discs from her, never got around to using the designs. 2 years later I got a letter from the Embroidery Coalition, saying that I broke the law and should pay them 600$ or they would see me in court. Well that was 3 years ago. I never heard from them again, I did not give them any money or even a reply. I read at the embroidery forum that someone did pay them and regretted it. They have not contacted me since 2008 and I have heard that it was a scam. I contacted ebay and they said it was not their problem.


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## Ronie (Jan 21, 2011)

Can I assume correctly that if there is NO instructions on how the item may be handled after its made then there's no law against selling it?? or do we need to be detectives and reaserch beyond the pattern? I appologize if this was asked and answered. I got to this post after 6 pages.. I have not read them all yet..


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## Mombee (May 21, 2011)

Don't be so hard on the designer - creating patterns could be one way that person makes a living, so in essence, you are stealing possible income. Copyright laws are in existence to protect inventors - whether it be an object, a piece of music or something written, such as a book, a poem or a pattern. Just think of how you would feel if someone made money off of an idea of yours that you though was protected by law as being just your idea. It sounds on the surface as being unimportant, but it can be very important to the creator of that idea. We all just need to watch and read stipulations on labels with care.


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## knitting_mama (Jan 30, 2011)

I know I wouldn't purchase any patterns from the original person. I wish your friend all the luck in the world. It is a waste of time for the courts over here to try this case. More times than not, the courts here give a slap on the hand an told not to do it again.


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## Mrs. Mac (Feb 10, 2011)

knittingsue said:


> just to up date you all on this. My friend has got 14 days to reply to the courts, she has to state where & when she bought the pattern and the wool from and how much she paid for it, she also has to say how much she sold it for. She has been told that the fine for this could be any thing from £200 to £2,000. time will tell.


Some of our states have passed laws against frivolous law suits. Not all. Most of them,however, seem aimed at product liability or medical malpractice issues. Seems like patent law needs to come under the same category.

Question? How did the suing party know that the item offered for sale was made by their pattern? Was it advertised as such?


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

wmcav06 said:


> I really don't understand those who don't want items sold that are made from their patterns--that is free advertising for them.


It may be advertising a really bad product.... not everyone knits well, chooses a decent yarn, or even knows what a proper gauge for an item looks like. I had a bunch of free patterns on Ravelry (and a few for sale) and in looking at the "projects" people made with my patterns, I saw some gosh-awful things. Some didn't even look like the pattern because the knitter couldn't interpret it correctly. I wouldn't want my name on that.


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## Mrs. Mac (Feb 10, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> wmcav06 said:
> 
> 
> > I really don't understand those who don't want items sold that are made from their patterns--that is free advertising for them.
> ...


Absolutely! One reason for my post just now about whether the item was advertised as by this designer.


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

Leya said:


> Would the copyright laws only apply to copying and reselling the pattern itself? I would think then the manufacturers of the yarn would have a law suit as well for using their yarn in the finished product.


No, it goes beyond that. Distribution rights are not granted unless specified on the copyright notice. So you can't distribute the pattern even for free. Then whatever conditions are listed on the copyright must be observed. Sometimes it just says "All Rights Reserved" which generally means the pattern is for personal use only, and no commercial usage. You can always try and contact the publisher and ask about usage if you are unclear. It is not hard to find contact info for publishers and yes, they do respond to their email.

I can't make any sense out of your yarn connotation.


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## wmcav06 (Jan 29, 2011)

Then shame on the person who wrote the pattern if it was the designers fault, but doesn't the maker usually get the blame for a poorly constructed item?


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

Christi said:


> I was just thinking....it isn't really different if someone buys or gets a pattern for free and shares it with someone versus getting a book from the library......in a sense the library books with patterns in it share the patterns also. Just a thought I had.......


There is a "fair use" clause in the law that allows for library books. You are allowed to copy not more than 10% of a library book and remain within the law.


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

Homeshppr said:


> I read posts on this "copyright" topic frequently and I think the bottom line is: "Be Careful" The laws ARE there and they CAN be enforced. Read copyright regulations carefully on any pattern you are creating to distribute in any way.
> 
> Pattern designers with copyrighted work can (and do) easliy search the internet to find their work being sold for profit--and many of them WILL file suit.
> 
> Have you noticed when you google that posts from this website will frequently pop up in your google searches? We do NOT want to put KP site administrators at risk of lawsuits by our actions here--whether they be innocent or intentional.


Good advice. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

petitenwuk said:


> knittingsue said:
> 
> 
> > She is seeing a solicitor on Monday. She has been knitting for over 40 years and she started to sell on line about a year ago. I'll let everyone know how she gets on.
> ...


As someone said, it is intellectual property and that is how designers earn an income. The same copyright law applies to one person buying a pattern and then making copies for the masses.


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

MarySandra said:


> insanitynz said:
> 
> 
> > how stupid i doubt it would stand up in court
> ...


Right. They generate advertising dollars that way, from the traffic to the website. This pays for the development of the "free" patterns.


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

Homeshppr said:


> I have a question for those who know more about this than I every will:
> 
> If we create a requested item from ANY pattern (purchased or FREE) for friends/family---is it okay to charge them for materials and labor? I've heard 2-3x cost of supplies is a fair rate to charge for our time. And is this different than "selling for profit?" To me, it seems like a "fine line"--but it is certainly different than marketing at craft shows or selling on the internet.


Private arrangements made between family members are really not the issue. For one thing, who would ever know? Now, if you have 200 family members who all want the same sweater... maybe a different story.


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## knittingneedles (Mar 27, 2011)

insanitynz said:


> how stupid i doubt it would stand up in court


It will very much stand up in court.. Just because it is a "silly knitting pattern" it is still under copywrite laws.. and if you make the exact pattern and then choose to sell it that is infringing on the law..

If you tweek it and change something then I am not so sure you can sue..

Have you seen the movie " The Social Network"? That is all based on intellectual property..basically has the same tenets.

So as insignificant as you might think a knitting pattern is.. if they throw it out of court then something else being sued that is way bigger can use that as a precedent, even if it is minor..
and then someone might be out of millions.. not pennies..


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

Bea 465 said:


> Actually the Tabarrone case was about Disney threatening to sue because this woman used fabric imprinted with Disney characters to make nursery items(?) or baby items. It wasn't about the patterns. Disney did not think she should be able to use fabric with their copyrighted characters to make items to sell, only for personal use. The woman filed suit in Federal District Court in Colorado and Disney, with all their lawyers, backed down. This woman filed her lawsuit on her own behalf, in Federal Court, without an attorney.


It is still irrelevant to the issue of creating knitted/crocheted items with a written (texted or charted) pattern. That case was about sewn clothing, from fabric. Apples and oranges...


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## inishowen (May 28, 2011)

knittingsue said:


> just to up date you all on this. My friend has got 14 days to reply to the courts, she has to state where & when she bought the pattern and the wool from and how much she paid for it, she also has to say how much she sold it for. She has been told that the fine for this could be any thing from £200 to £2,000. time will tell.[/quote Please let us know what happens. i'm shocked that with all the crime in our world someone thinks it's reasonable to take an innocent knitter to court. The world has truly gone mad.


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## knittingneedles (Mar 27, 2011)

Disney knew they had no case.. they has a manufacturer produce the material to purchase there is no disclaimer on the material that the person using it can't sell what she makes. 

I believe it has to be printed somewhere that states, they cannot use this material without permission for resell..

Isn't that what is on packages of cigarettes? and other items.. it says.. .not for resell???


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## knittingneedles (Mar 27, 2011)

I am starting an organization for knitting for troops.. I want to put patterns on my site so that it would be easier for people who want to knit..to find the patterns without having to look all over the web..

I have specifically asked all the designers of the patterns I want to list, for permission to do so..

If I haven't gotten a response.. I won't put their pattern on the site.. even if it is a free pattern and it is going to a good cause with no money involved..

Better to always be safe than sorry...

I agree with who ever said.. she should call or contact the designer and apologize and possibly split the profit from the sweater.. there will always be other sweaters and more profit from something else...


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## BGL (Feb 16, 2011)

AuntKnitty said:


> petitenwuk said:
> 
> 
> > The courts over here would throw it out they have better things to do than take people to court over knitting patterns. It is wasting the courts time and money, she should just get a warning.
> ...


I agree with you that the author should be protected, but again, how many times do we read about how fast a dress designer's work is (Copied?) sold as a "knock-off" by oodles of stores, and it is almost a contest to see which manufacturer can get the copies out to the stores first... Never read about those cases being prosecuted, and the designer who gets many thousands of $'s for the original should be able to afford a lawyer to sue folks.
Common sense HAS to enter into this, before the pattern designers can tell us how much $ per hour we have to charge for our work, and the yarn mfgr's get a commission for the use of their yarns. 
I can see the government getting into this, to tell us the required minimum hourly compensation for knitting...
Let's face it, when we buy a book of patterns we intend to use one or two of them, likely as gifts, which to me constitutes "personal use" as it is a personal gift. Is that banned, too? And at what point does it become a legal issue?
Now I have to think of what, 6 different ways to change the socks I am making, so I can give them away? Yeesh! And for those of you who are smiling and chuckling, NO, I am NOT going to knit individual toes, though that would cover 5 of the 6 changes, wouldn't it? Per sock, or does it have to be per useful item (as in a pair being one useful item, which unless you are an amputee, a pair is the usual unit measure for socks)?
I know a music artist gets paid each time their song is played (part of the invoice for my Sirius/XM radio service), doesn't a designer get paid for each copy of the pattern sold, whether direct or in a book?
Enough is enough!


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## BGL (Feb 16, 2011)

AuntKnitty said:


> petitenwuk said:
> 
> 
> > The courts over here would throw it out they have better things to do than take people to court over knitting patterns. It is wasting the courts time and money, she should just get a warning.
> ...


I agree with you that the author should be protected, but again, how many times do we read about how fast a dress designer's work is (Copied?) sold as a "knock-off" by oodles of stores, and it is almost a contest to see which manufacturer can get the copies out to the stores first... Never read about those cases being prosecuted, and the designer who gets many thousands of $'s for the original should be able to afford a lawyer to sue folks.
Common sense HAS to enter into this, before the pattern designers can tell us how much $ per hour we have to charge for our work, and the yarn mfgr's get a commission for the use of their yarns. 
I can see the government getting into this, to tell us the required minimum hourly compensation for knitting...
Let's face it, when we buy a book of patterns we intend to use one or two of them, likely as gifts, which to me constitutes "personal use" as it is a personal gift. Is that banned, too? And at what point does it become a legal issue?
Now I have to think of what, 6 different ways to change the socks I am making, so I can give them away? Yeesh! And for those of you who are smiling and chuckling, NO, I am NOT going to knit individual toes, though that would cover 5 of the 6 changes, wouldn't it? Per sock, or does it have to be per useful item (as in a pair being one useful item, which unless you are an amputee, a pair is the usual unit measure for socks)?
I know a music artist gets paid each time their song is played (part of the invoice for my Sirius/XM radio service), doesn't a designer get paid for each copy of the pattern sold, whether direct or in a book?
Enough is enough!


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

Yup, seems to me that it is often the recognition factor that makes a difference.



courier770 said:


> This is not a petty issue. Copy right is to protect the work of others. Why would you boycott a company that is taking the time to protect it's "product". While these laws seem trivial to some, they are important and the courts cannot throw the case out. That would set a legal precedent and NO one's work would be safe.
> 
> I have several patterns that are copy righted. My purpose is so that no one can duplicate the patterns and distribute them (either for free or payment). Personally I wouldn't care if they were used to craft items to be sold but I would want the seller to state the source of the pattern.


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## knittingneedles (Mar 27, 2011)

BGL said:


> AuntKnitty said:
> 
> 
> > petitenwuk said:
> ...


1. You aren't selling the socks, are you?

2. You can copy anything and sell it as long as you change something on it.. such as color, material etc.

3. Even if you choose to sell the socks as long as they are a different color.. they can't sue you...

If you watch info commercials you will see so many items that are very similar.. the first one got a patent (which, by the way, must have every component of the item written down exactly how you make it) which is easily stolen and switched up.. once that is done it is considered a new product and you can sell it.. You can even use a patented item for a different use and make money off it.. which is why many people choose not to patent an item,, but get it to market quickly before someone else does.

When you watch the Oscars right away designers are copying the designs but change it up enough so that they can sell it without infringement.

And music is about Royalties not copywrite..


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## Wynn11 (Jul 20, 2011)

Hi, I'm new. My profile got messed up, but I will fix it soon. On the subjecd - Last night I was looking through the patterns stored on my hard drive, found one I wanted then tried to print it. It just wouldn't work. I googled it and I came up with three sites with the same pattern; the original yarn shpo and 2 other different ones. Is this legal? I looks as if someone had "borrowed" the pattern. The strange thing is that I couldn't print it on any of them and when I went back to one of the sites, it had been deleted. I didn't think this was proper.


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

Most of the time when I come across a design that was developed by someone other than the blogger who puts it up it is attributed to the originator. 
There are, of course, always those who will try to claim someone else's skill as their own. 
It would take a whole lot of work for the viewer to determine who came up with the design first.



Wynn11 said:


> Hi, I'm new. My profile got messed up, but I will fix it soon. On the subjecd - Last night I was looking through the patterns stored on my hard drive, found one I wanted then tried to print it. It just wouldn't work. I googled it and I came up with three sites with the same pattern; the original yarn shpo and 2 other different ones. Is this legal? I looks as if someone had "borrowed" the pattern. The strange thing is that I couldn't print it on any of them and when I went back to one of the sites, it had been deleted. I didn't think this was proper.


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## Homeshppr (Feb 28, 2011)

Ronie said:


> Can I assume correctly that if there is NO instructions on how the item may be handled after its made then there's no law against selling it?? or do we need to be detectives and reaserch beyond the pattern? I appologize if this was asked and answered. I got to this post after 6 pages.. I have not read them all yet..


General rule: If you had to pay for your pattern, others should have to as well. And also assume it is not ethical to sell for profit any work created from an artist's pattern without getting permission from that artist first.


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## moogles (Apr 29, 2011)

this is how sad this world has become I only wish they would point themselves in the direction that is needed but I guess that it to hard for the powers that be to conquer


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## Homeshppr (Feb 28, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> Homeshppr said:
> 
> 
> > I have a question for those who know more about this than I every will:
> ...


Thanks for your response to my question. This issue comes up often for me and I've always hesitated to charge anything for my work (even though the my member sometimes gave my creation to someone else as a gift). I usually end up just donating my work, time and materials to the very most special people in my life--and am careful to choose my favorite FREE patterns when this occurs.


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## Maxine R (Apr 15, 2011)

knittingsue said:


> A friend of mine bought a knitting pattern from her local craft shop, she also bought all the wool that she needed to knit the cardigan with. After she had knitted it she sold it on a on line site. Yesterday she received a letter telling her that she was being taken to court as she had broken the copy right laws on the cardigan.She had knitted it in the same colours as the picture on the pattern. She has been told that if you look at the back of a knitting pattern it tells you there that "It is sold on the condition that it is only used for non- commercial purposes". this means that if you knit some thing from a bought pattern do not do it in the same colours as the picture on the pattern. the copy right law not only covers the pattern but it also covers the colours the pattern is knitted in. so if you have a nice pattern that you want to knit and then sell, change one or two of the colours that the pattern is printed in.


Well I never lots of people buy patterns because the colour is what got them to buy it it in first place. Can't quite understand that. But its worth remembering for future reference. You just don't know who's watching & listening they say walls have ears.


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## Palenque1978 (Feb 16, 2011)

petitenwuk said:


> knittingsue said:
> 
> 
> > She is seeing a solicitor on Monday. She has been knitting for over 40 years and she started to sell on line about a year ago. I'll let everyone know how she gets on.
> ...


Yes, I too wish her well and would like to know the name of the designer.


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## jltrask (Feb 18, 2011)

Some people who provide free patterns ask to be listed as designer.
When we make a CD, actually, whether we charge or not, we have to research to see if a song is public domain or copyrighted. (Royalties are the payments.) We have to exercise "due diligence" in searching. If we find nothing, we can use it. If we find it is licensed, we sometimes have to pay a fee - usually around $25, depending on how many copies we are going to make. And we have to get permission to change any words. That really surprised me. But, like my husband says, as a woodworker, when someone is working with him, if something goes out with his name on it, it better be of his quality of work. 
How's that for muddying up the waters? Music is handled differently than some other copyrights, but it does show how confusing copyright law is. And there is so much inaccurate information. I researched it when our group wrote a song a few years ago - and probably things have changed since. Someone mentioned she was married to a copyright attorney (or something to that effect). That would be helpful if you are creating or selling patterns/art,intellectual property.


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## Sunsea (Jul 10, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> knittingsue said:
> 
> 
> > A friend of mine bought a knitting pattern from her local craft shop, she also bought all the wool that she needed to knit the cardigan with. After she had knitted it she sold it on a on line site. Yesterday she received a letter telling her that she was being taken to court as she had broken the copy right laws on the cardigan.She had knitted it in the same colours as the picture on the pattern. She has been told that if you look at the back of a knitting pattern it tells you there that "It is sold on the condition that it is only used for non- commercial purposes". this means that if you knit some thing from a bought pattern do not do it in the same colours as the picture on the pattern. the copy right law not only covers the pattern but it also covers the colours the pattern is knitted in. so if you have a nice pattern that you want to knit and then sell, change one or two of the colours that the pattern is printed in.
> ...


I suggest you look at this website on the real copyright laws. You will find that the stipulation placed on that copyright on the pattern are not legal. http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml


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## Sue Prenter (Mar 27, 2011)

What commercial gain can there be if one includes a) the cost of the pattern, the cost of the wool and an hourly rate for the time taken to the knit the garment. In UK there is a standard mimimum hourly rate. I would suggest the time taken to knit the garment is documented, an hourly rate applied and then decide if financial gain has been made An aoplogy to the original designer with this explanation may avert the issue Good luck and keep us posted


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## YourLuckyEwe (Jul 2, 2011)

Next time change the edging of the sleeves, whatever, from ribbing to moss stitch or some other similar edging. These stories come around every few years about selling the designs of others yet it seems to be okay to knit something for another for a fee. Just change some part of the item that is large enough to show difference and originality.


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## MegK31 (Feb 4, 2011)

Benji said:


> petitenwuk said:
> 
> 
> > knittingsue said:
> ...


I would not buy any patterns from this designer. She should be grateful that someone admired her pattern and took the time to make it. I feel that if you buy a pattern you should be able to do what you want with it. I do not mean that you should make copies of the pattern and sell them but the finished garment should be yours to do what you want with it. By the way what is the name of the designer.

Let us know how this turns out.

I will bet the person being sued did not make very much from this project after she made it and purchased the wool. I think that copy writing patterns is really a lost cause. Most patterns have been around for many years. They get lost for awhile and then resurface again as new patterns. People have been knitting and crocheting for hundreds of years.


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## Sunsea (Jul 10, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> ZenHooker said:
> 
> 
> > Please cite this alleged court case as I cannot find any such court case in the US. Here's a rundown on the inapplicability of copyright law to patterns for knitting, crochet, sewing, etc.
> ...


Actually, sewing patterns are more then templates. It takes word in the directions to to know how to sew them together.


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## eneurian (May 4, 2011)

which is why i won't buy a pattern. intelectually i can understand both sides. however, copyrights only encourage money grubbing litigation. it's not the world i want to live in, which is why my only communication with the world outside my home is on this forum.


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## Whippet (Feb 21, 2011)

I bought a pattern with a copywrite on it and I wrote the designer and asked permission to make and sell what I made from her pattern. She wrote back and gave me permission to make and sell the items. I kept the copy of the letter she sent me in case anything happens in the future. I don't think it will.


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## scotslass (Mar 18, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> petitenwuk said:
> 
> 
> > The courts over here would throw it out they have better things to do than take people to court over knitting patterns. It is wasting the courts time and money, she should just get a warning.
> ...


Sewbizgirl you are looking at it from the American court system. Every country is different. It may just get thrown out, or come to an agreement before it gets to court. This could be an honest mistake and this lady should contact the designer.
I have been sewing from patterns for many many years, I have never sold anything, it's always been made for family, I have never considered looking for copyright laws. I don't consider myself doing anything wrong in notchecking because I've never considered selling anything I make


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## tence (Jun 16, 2011)

petitenwuk said:


> knittingsue said:
> 
> 
> > She is seeing a solicitor on Monday. She has been knitting for over 40 years and she started to sell on line about a year ago. I'll let everyone know how she gets on.
> ...


is this for real i never heard of such a thing how does the designer expect to sell his patterns if you can't sell or give them away most people need somebody else to knit or crochet for them and are willing to pay the designer should not tell us what color to use i personally will not buy a pattern that says i can't sell what i make please!


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## nannykints (Jul 7, 2011)

I found a cross bookmark one time that I wanted to make on a pretty large scale for a church sale,and because it had the copyright thing on it ..I emailed the designer and ask for permission and was granted permission with her blessing, so printed it out to have proof in case something came up, ended up selling all I made and a profit I might add , I know it is not the same as selling for you own personal profit...you do have to be careful...


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## smoqui (Mar 2, 2011)

Well, all this is well and good, but consider thinking of yourself in the place of the designer. He/She designed the pattern with the intention of selling the pattern. If you sell the garment, that is one copy of the pattern that the purchaser did not pay to the original author. If that goes on it is possible, if it turned out to be a very popular garment, that the author could lose quite a large sum in sales of the pattern because anyone simply buying the finished garment would bypass paying the author for his/her work. It may seem silly, but a sweater or other garment is quite similar in concept to a computer program, or an object manufactured for sale, like the Gucci bags, Channel dresses, or any other product. The designer put time and effort into the project with the intention of making money. True, the knitter put time into making up the garment, but she paid absolutely nothing to the designer for the pattern except for the very first purchase. There is nothing to prevent a person buying a pattern and selling thousands of copies or finished garments if the copyright laws are to be simply ignored.


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## wmcav06 (Jan 29, 2011)

The object you make is NOT the pattern...the pattern is the paper/file that you buy and use to make the object.


smoqui said:


> Well, all this is well and good, but consider thinking of yourself in the place of the designer. He/She designed the pattern with the intention of selling the pattern. If you sell the garment, that is one copy of the pattern that the purchaser did not pay to the original author. If that goes on it is possible, if it turned out to be a very popular garment, that the author could lose quite a large sum in sales of the pattern because anyone simply buying the finished garment would bypass paying the author for his/her work. It may seem silly, but a sweater or other garment is quite similar in concept to a computer program, or an object manufactured for sale, like the Gucci bags, Channel dresses, or any other product. The designer put time and effort into the project with the intention of making money. True, the knitter put time into making up the garment, but she paid absolutely nothing to the designer for the pattern except for the very first purchase. There is nothing to prevent a person buying a pattern and selling thousands of copies or finished garments if the copyright laws are to be simply ignored.


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## jltrask (Feb 18, 2011)

I think if I ever sell anything made from someone's pattern, copyrighted or not, I'll try to contact the designer or publishing company, etc. and get permission. All we can do is our best to follow the laws and try not to cheat anyone. I'd rather err on the side of being too careful than find out I was cheating someone. I think most people would be willing to let you use their pattern as long as you give them credit. If not - well, I'll try something else.


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## MarySandra (Mar 23, 2011)

tence said:


> petitenwuk said:
> 
> 
> > knittingsue said:
> ...


You can give away what you make and they aren't telling what colors you can use. Most of the patterns you get have a copyright on them. It's good that you won't buy these pattern and sell what you made from them because that is exactly the point of a copyright.


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## tence (Jun 16, 2011)

MarySandra said:


> tence said:
> 
> 
> > petitenwuk said:
> ...


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## scrappinmagic (Apr 29, 2011)

Sunsea said:


> I suggest you look at this website on the real copyright laws. You will find that the stipulation placed on that copyright on the pattern are not legal. http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml


Most patterns you can sell WHAT YOU MAKE with it....the copyright laws are there to protect the resell/distribution of the PATTERN ITSELF.(unless stated you cannot sell the finished product) You are NOT permitted to make copies of a purchased/free pattern and sell them or distribute them for free.

I do not allow resale of my PATTERNS or for them to be given away for free after purchase. This is just WRONG. It took me much trial and error to perfect them and I don't want someone else profiting from my hard work by just handing out my patterns to every one they know so they can make a small profit off the finished item.
I do allow sales of the completed item on my designs...I just do not allow INTERNET sales, as I sell them also through the internet. (and trust me, I AM one how looks out for copyright infringement on the internet. Not afraid to speak up either when someone is stealing some one elses hard work.) However, feel free to put them on your craft table at your local craft fair....as I highly doubt I will ever be in your particular area for the same craft fair! (unless you live in/near Erie, PA or Gainesville/Ocala Florida!)

As for Disney and other large corporations ie: Pokemon, Nintendo etc, it is the use of their designs that you cannot make things of and sell.....such as a wood cutout of Mickey Mouse or Mario, etc. If it is a fabric that has the design in it, you should be permitted to sell what you make with that fabric, unless it is a specific disney pattern (be it a dress or a vest, etc) design. 
For instance.....there is a local store in our neighborhood that has Mickey cut onto wood and they are advertising their store name right across him...that is illegal unless they have obtained permission from Disney to do so (which I highly doubt they have, knowing the type of store it is)


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## scrappinmagic (Apr 29, 2011)

and just changing the COLOR you use....that is not changing the design/pattern at all.


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## MegK31 (Feb 4, 2011)

smoqui said:


> Well, all this is well and good, but consider thinking of yourself in the place of the designer. He/She designed the pattern with the intention of selling the pattern. If you sell the garment, that is one copy of the pattern that the purchaser did not pay to the original author. If that goes on it is possible, if it turned out to be a very popular garment, that the author could lose quite a large sum in sales of the pattern because anyone simply buying the finished garment would bypass paying the author for his/her work. It may seem silly, but a sweater or other garment is quite similar in concept to a computer program, or an object manufactured for sale, like the Gucci bags, Channel dresses, or any other product. The designer put time and effort into the project with the intention of making money. True, the knitter put time into making up the garment, but she paid absolutely nothing to the designer for the pattern except for the very first purchase. There is nothing to prevent a person buying a pattern and selling thousands of copies or finished garments if the copyright laws are to be simply ignored.


I think the person who started this discussion did buy her copy of the pattern then she sold the completed sweater. So the designer did recieve money for her pattern. I think the person who bought the pattern and made the garment should be able to do what she wants with it.

I do not think anyone should make copies of the pattern and sell them. The designer will recieve money for each copy she sells. But I don't think she has the right to tell people what to do with their finished project.


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## KnitPicker (Jan 19, 2011)

The problem is two fold - 1-she made an EXACT copy (color, etc) and 2-sold it. In order to make exact copies, you must be licensed from the originator of the product - the designer, manufacturer, etc.

I'm a writer. My work is copyrighted. If someone copies my work and calls it theirs and sells it, it is a copyright infringement and I am entitled to their profit for my efforts since I have been "damaged" financially.

It is the same with what this lady did. Had she not done it in the same color, or changed it to a large degree (depending on how she changed it), or if she had received license from the owner of the copyright to sell it as it was represented in the picture, she wouldn't have run into problems re copyright infringement. She didn't know about it at the time, so I'm sure if she contacts the owner, they will forgive her. She may have to pay the profit, but she will be off the hook because there would not be any "damage" (financially or reputation wise) to the owner of the copyright and they could not go forth with their lawsuit.

I have sympathy for both the owner of the copyright and the lady who infringed without realizing she was doing so. Any copy of a copyrighted item must be licensed to sell by the owner of the copyright. 

I come from a long line of inventors and each one is entitled to protect their property, which in this case is the idea, plus all the hard work they put into it. It's the same with my books, articles, etc. People are welcome to quote in small amounts (you'll see this noted in manuscripts), but pulling out large amounts and selling it is prohibited by copyright. I wish this lady well, and hope we have all learned a great deal more about copyrights than we did when this conversation started.


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## Etbit (Jul 23, 2011)

Thank you for sharing this with us.


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## mjzorn (Feb 26, 2011)

Thanks to all who shared. As a musician, I deal with the copyright issue all the time. We may not agree with it, but it is important to know it. Especially with church music, you would be surprised at what people believe, for instance, I have had many people say that because the song is in the hymnal of their denomination, they have the right to copy it....wrong, wrong, wrong. Also have learned the hard way that DISNEY MEANS BUSINESS. Back to knitting, I'm guessing that one of the main problems this lady ran into was advertising online -- the potential for VOLUME sales of the design. 
Knitpicker, what kind of stuff do you write? We probably should recognize your picture..!?!


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## texanntx (Feb 7, 2011)

My solution is to not buy patterns like this. If I buy a pattern, I should be able to do whatever I want to with it. I do not mean mass produce...believe me, that is not going to happen.

I also do not buy fabric (for instance Disney fabric) that has prohibitions on it. Why on earth would I buy fabric that I can not use as I want?

Copyrights have gotten out of hand, books or patterns limiting you to making one, etc.


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## horsewoofie (Apr 10, 2011)

Hello Knitpicker,
It's interesting that you're a writer. If you don't mind, I have a writing question for you.
A couple years ago when I was laid off for a year, I started writing a how-to cook/shop book. I never finished it because I went back to work and haven't had the time or energy. The book was 90% complete at the time and has not been published. It's now in need of a re-write before I consider moving forward with the project. 
But, and here's my question, being a novice, I used clip art from the web between chapters for "cute". I emailed the site asking for permission and never got a response. Is the clip art public domain or is permission needed? I also scavenged some pictures from the web, such as how to cut up a chicken and roll pie dough because they were better than I can take while doing the task. OK or not?
Thanks in advance for your advice.


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## kiwi11 (Jul 27, 2011)

Hi-your warnings are heady and frustrating to many- I believe even if you should change the type of wool-you are safe from copyright. You could also re-name the pattern/style- perhaps the people who sell multitudes of these patterns should actually just keep them for their own use and not try to make $$$ LOL
I'm sure every pattern has started with someone else's "original"
even if they may have been centuries old patterns.


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## kiwi11 (Jul 27, 2011)

Interesting- I note that you are designing bags-where did your original idea come from?


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## kiwi11 (Jul 27, 2011)

Touche' dreamweaver-


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## eneurian (May 4, 2011)

omg 10 pages of this "knit picking" back and forth. any designer this petty is not aaarrrggghhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

these are knit stitches and purl stitches and there are only so many ways to put them together. the designer was paid. the knitter was paid for her talent and effort and patience and persistence in trying to read the designer's concept of a cogent thought. she's deserves something for that too. everybody got paid! i refuse to read this anymore.


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## TabathaJoy (Mar 5, 2011)

I just can't believe it. What a way to spend our tax dollar. I wish you all the luck in the world. I am behind you 100% of the way.Now we will all be checking our items before we sell them. Will be thinking of you.


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## Maelinde (Jan 26, 2011)

She really could end up paying the fine and possibly court costs. I'm hoping that the judge won't be harsh on her and just ask that she not do it again, maybe community service for a day. A heavy fine is not nice for someone who isn't a criminal.

I do hope that things go well for her.

I've had people copy my work when I was doing lots of jewelry and selling in a craft mall in Texas called Coomer's. Another jewelry crafter moved in to the booth right next to mine and had no scruples copying EVERYTHING I made, except for using very cheap beads, etc. Then she sold them for 1/2 the price of mine. I was doing exceptionally well there at the time until she moved in. The manager saw nothing wrong with it, so I put my 30 day notice in and vacated.

This girl called me up a week after I left and demanded I share my patterns with her as she has no new ideas to sell. She threatened to sue me for taking away her inspiration. I told her to go right ahead. My mom had an attorney on retainer, so he sent out a formal letter telling her to cease and desist otherwise she would be sued for copious amounts of money. That shut her up right quick.

People often look to see where their designs are at online and sometimes at shows.

When purchasing commercial patterns (either from a big name store or an individual pattern designer), they place their terms somewhere visible - on an envelope, instructions, etc. Please abide by them. It is really not fair to the designer to have everything created and sold.

I'm not trying to come across as a mean witch, I'm really not.

Now, something like the known stitches - those aren't copyrighted. They're in the public domain. Eventually 2 people are going to knit the same hat even down to the same yarn and color. Those things happen.

Best thing to do is to create one's own pattern and design from that. I've found that to be the most helpful. I'm kind of unique with my life in addition to my creativity.



knittingsue said:


> just to up date you all on this. My friend has got 14 days to reply to the courts, she has to state where & when she bought the pattern and the wool from and how much she paid for it, she also has to say how much she sold it for. She has been told that the fine for this could be any thing from £200 to £2,000. time will tell.


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## Maelinde (Jan 26, 2011)

battye one said:


> alan dart said you may sell his things that you knit from his patterns, as long as you acknowledge its his pattern but made by you. on his web site, he even has tags that one can copy to put with the knitted article. maybe others should do something similar


That is really cool. Not many designers offer that.

Some people in the Polymer Clay world also allow some sales for "pin money" (usually up to 20 items) provided that they're at craft shows, a home gathering, etc. But not for selling on a website.

It pays to read that really fine print. <sigh>


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## jbagnall (Jun 14, 2011)

this is frightening and it certainly gives us a wakeup call. maybe it also applys to loaning patterns to freinds also. i hope your freind does'nt get into serious trouble over this :?


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## knittingsue (May 31, 2011)

UPDATE. I have just heard from my friend, she has been to see her solicitor and this is what she has been told.When she bought the pattern she should have read the small print on the back as it clearly said that it was sold for "non commercial purposes". when she listed it for sale she should not have put "all my own work " as this also means that she designed the pattern as well as doing the knitting.she did not ask for permission from the designer to sell the knitted item,and she did not acknowledge the designer. Her solicitor went on to tell her that if she knits any more items to sell from a pattern that she has bought she should never knit them in the same colours as the picture on the pattern ( you can use the same colours if you are giving the item as a gift and no money is given )
The mistake that my friend made was that she made a true copy of the pattern, she even put the flowers in the same place as was on the pattern. her solicitor is 99% sure that she will not end up in court for this as she has contacted the designer and said how sorry she is for doing this. I think that this is a lesson for all of us, if we find a pretty pattern that we want to knit, change the colours from the picture of the pattern and never list it using the words " all my own work ". I will let you all know what is the outcome of this.


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

I agree with your basic premise that every pattern is based on something older. 
Renaming a product would actually constitute fraud, I think. It would show that you were intentionally trying to get around giving credit to the designer. 
The origin of copyright laws/ the intention, was to make a design/invention available to others while protecting the originator; it was meant to support distribution. It is all about ask, respond, credit, and a fee. The fee segment for profit takers. 
Any of the folks who have given me permission for free patterns from online have only asked that I not sell online.



kiwi11 said:


> Hi-your warnings are heady and frustrating to many- I believe even if you should change the type of wool-you are safe from copyright. You could also re-name the pattern/style- perhaps the people who sell multitudes of these patterns should actually just keep them for their own use and not try to make $$$ LOL
> I'm sure every pattern has started with someone else's "original"
> even if they may have been centuries old patterns.


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

Thanks so much for the quick update. It shows how simple it is to ensure the ability to make enough money to support our handcrafting while honoring the intellectual property of the designer. 
That being said, ask before you purchase the design, folks. 
Maybe share with the group who grants permission and who will not. 
We can show designers that it is worth sharing.



knittingsue said:


> UPDATE. I have just heard from my friend, she has been to see her solicitor and this is what she has been told.When she bought the pattern she should have read the small print on the back as it clearly said that it was sold for "non commercial purposes". when she listed it for sale she should not have put "all my own work " as this also means that she designed the pattern as well as doing the knitting.she did not ask for permission from the designer to sell the knitted item,and she did not acknowledge the designer. Her solicitor went on to tell her that if she knits any more items to sell from a pattern that she has bought she should never knit them in the same colours as the picture on the pattern ( you can use the same colours if you are giving the item as a gift and no money is given )
> The mistake that my friend made was that she made a true copy of the pattern, she even put the flowers in the same place as was on the pattern. her solicitor is 99% sure that she will not end up in court for this as she has contacted the designer and said how sorry she is for doing this. I think that this is a lesson for all of us, if we find a pretty pattern that we want to knit, change the colours from the picture of the pattern and never list it using the words " all my own work ". I will let you all know what is the outcome of this.


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## TerryLynn (Jul 26, 2011)

I made a sweater for a friend and it was from a pattern book. One in red and one in purple. am I in trouble?


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

TerryLynn, go back and read everything in the pattern book. Does it state anywhere that the patterns cannot be used for "commercial purposes"? That means you cannot use the pattern to make items for sale.

I have copyrighted patterns, but I don't care if someone uses the patterns to make items and sell them as long as they state the source of the pattern. Most of my patterns are fairly complicated and labor intensive, making them not particularly desirable for "commercial purposes".


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

As a gift?



TerryLynn said:


> I made a sweater for a friend and it was from a pattern book. One in red and one in purple. am I in trouble?


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## TerryLynn (Jul 26, 2011)

courier770, I will go back and read the pattern book. The pattern is from Family Circle knitting magazine. thank you


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

If it's a gift, it's not a commercial transaction.


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## TerryLynn (Jul 26, 2011)

dear Jelun, they were gifts just that they bought the materials and I just knitted it.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Then you have nothing to worry about. This weekend was our local Art Fair. I noticed several booths where people were selling hand knit and crocheted items. Not a single item gave credit to the pattern designer. When I asked a woman why she did not cite the designer, her answer floored me "if I did that people would buy the patterns themselves and make the items". I guess she figures it's O.K. for HER to make money, but not the designer!


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## bizzyknitter (May 10, 2011)

TerryLynn said:


> dear Jelun, they were gifts just that they bought the materials and I just knitted it.


 We buy the pattern because we like how it looks with the colors it was knitted in. So why should we have to change the color of the sweater? If I made it for someone and charged her for my work and I still in trouble?


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

LOL, I can be a dear... not often tho. 
You should have no issue. It is for those of us who want to provide the paying public with our craft that copyright law exists.



TerryLynn said:


> dear Jelun, they were gifts just that they bought the materials and I just knitted it.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

jelun, that's not why copyright laws exist.


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

If you bothered to read other posts that I have made you would see that I have given the origins of copyright law. 
Copyright was created to share information in order for "inventions" to be used.



courier770 said:


> jelun, that's not why copyright laws exist.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I did read them. Inventions come under patents, not copyright. Apples and Oranges.


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

That was the reason for the quotation marks. The intent is the very same to protect the originator of the idea while allowing the public to use it. 
Nobody charges me for singing Happy Birthday in the privacy of my home to family or friends, nobody expects to put a knitting pattern out on the internet for people to read, it is for use. 
The owner of the rights to Happy Birthday can and should collect when it is used commercially. The owner of a knitting pattern has the right to determine how that pattern can be used in other than personal use. 
Patents also are about intellectual property. The holder of the patent can allow or withhold License and use. 
Different term same general procedure. 
But just like with the library book issue you can be right even if you are not, it seems to be so important to you.



courier770 said:


> I did read them. Inventions come under patents, not copyright. Apples and Oranges.


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## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

ZenHooker said:


> Please cite this alleged court case as I cannot find any such court case in the US. Here's a rundown on the inapplicability of copyright law to patterns for knitting, crochet, sewing, etc.
> 
> http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml
> 
> ...


I suggest everyone read this message re the copyright laws. Thank you for taking the time to post this information for us. Blessings, Dorothy


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

And then read this...

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html


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## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

dinah d said:


> This is becoming a sad world, how many people can knit and are will to buy things from people who can,so now we have whatch what colour or wool??? we knit in, where will it stop?


It will stop when we start to stand up for ourselves. This is a form of control. Don't we lived in free countries? We can do without people dictating to us. Blessings, 
Dorothy


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

People will continue to twist wording to suit their own purposes or to justify their actions. Written patterns and "template" patterns cannot be compared.

I'll come down on the side of the designer every time. It is their artistic work (no different from a writer or song writer). Their body of work, both in total and in each individual piece is theirs.

There have been many cases to hit the courts regarding copyright and music (both words and melody). The original artist has prevailed time and time again.

It comes down to a matter of "respect" for the original artist/designer.

If you disagree, you are free to design your own patterns, write your own music, books, etc..


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

My thought is that if you are being paid for your labor it constitutes a commercial use. 
I would ask the developer of the pattern or the publisher for permission. 
Even if you are given a gift "in lieu of payment" that is considered income so far as bartering is concerned. 
With so much support from posters who say they have asked permission and received it as well as from those designers we have here who say they grant permission on a regular basis I am not sure why anyone would not go through that simple formality.



bizzyknitter said:


> TerryLynn said:
> 
> 
> > dear Jelun, they were gifts just that they bought the materials and I just knitted it.
> ...


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

Here in the US we are considered to live in a "nation of laws". We didn't have much argument with this idea until recent years, it seems now that people only like the laws that pertain to others.



georgethefifth said:


> dinah d said:
> 
> 
> > This is becoming a sad world, how many people can knit and are will to buy things from people who can,so now we have whatch what colour or wool??? we knit in, where will it stop?
> ...


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I've designed patterns and have many that are copyrighted. I've stated over and over that I have no problem with someone using one (or more) of my patterns to make items and sell them. If they paid for the pattern to begin with and do not distribute the pattern in any way..how they use it is up to them. Not all designers feel this way though.

My mother and grandmother designed patterns...some were written in long hand, my mother wrote hers in short hand, some were written on actual sheets of paper and others on pieces of paper grocery bags or the back of junk mail envelopes! I've saved each and every one that I got my hot little hands on.

I keep hoping that my grand daughter (now age 5) takes up knitting..and takes that folder of patterns from her great grandmother and great, great grandmother and publishes them in a book! She should make money from these very special patterns and live well!


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## jltrask (Feb 18, 2011)

jelun said:


> And then read this...
> 
> http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html


This is very good information. Thank you for posting. Click on the links for more info.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

MegK31 said:


> smoqui said:
> 
> 
> > Well, all this is well and good, but consider thinking of yourself in the place of the designer. He/She designed the pattern with the intention of selling the pattern. If you sell the garment, that is one copy of the pattern that the purchaser did not pay to the original author. If that goes on it is possible, if it turned out to be a very popular garment, that the author could lose quite a large sum in sales of the pattern because anyone simply buying the finished garment would bypass paying the author for his/her work. It may seem silly, but a sweater or other garment is quite similar in concept to a computer program, or an object manufactured for sale, like the Gucci bags, Channel dresses, or any other product. The designer put time and effort into the project with the intention of making money. True, the knitter put time into making up the garment, but she paid absolutely nothing to the designer for the pattern except for the very first purchase. There is nothing to prevent a person buying a pattern and selling thousands of copies or finished garments if the copyright laws are to be simply ignored.
> ...


I copied this from an email I received. "This just came up on the knitting site and someone emailed the U.S. Copyright office directly and got this response. It had a part about original artwork that sometimes come into play in needlework, so I thought it might be interesting.

Question via email to the U.S. Copyright Office:
I want to sell a knitting pattern I wrote complete with step-by-step instructions and a photo of the finished project. I understand that my written work and photo cannot be reproduced or distributed without my consent. My question regards the finished product produced by the individual who made it using my pattern: Do I have any claim to what is done with that finished product such as how it can be used or if it can be sold for profit?

Response via email from the U.S. Copyright Office:
Copyright in a pattern normally pertains to the pattern itself, not to the object that you construct from the pattern. If the pattern, however, includes original artwork that would be incorporated into the work you make, then you may need permission to use it commercially. An example of that would be a needlework pattern depicting original artwork. An example of the opposite would be a dress pattern: the dress you make from the pattern is not subject to copyright protection.
*********************************************
U.S. Copyright Office
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave SE
Washington DC 20559
(202) 707-3000
www.copyright.gov"

I guess its possible a knitwear designer can create a totally new stitch (original artwork?)and incorporate it into his/her designs, but I think those would be rare since people have been knitting for hundreds of years.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

tence said:


> petitenwuk said:
> 
> 
> > knittingsue said:
> ...


There is a school of thought that every time you want to create a finished product to sell, you should purchase another pattern, chart, or whatever. That way the designer sells more patterns, hence more profit. I'm NOT saying this is the law, it's just how some people feel.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Years ago I read a book about a young Jewish girl that survived Nazi Germany. She lived in one of the Ghetto's and was allowed out to clean houses of the wealthy. One of the women she cleaned for, had obtained some dairy animals (taken from Jews that were sent to either a Ghetto or deathcamps). The woman told the girl she would give her several liters of Milk if the girl would knit her a sweater.

Each night after she returned to the Ghetto, from cleaning houses, she worked on this sweater (she got the yarn by disassembling other garments and dying the wool herself), she also designed the sweater. When she went to deliver it...the woman slapped her and called her "stupid" for not realizing that the woman would gain weight now that she had so much milk. The young girl had to reknit the sweater to fit the growing girth of the woman. Upon delivery she was only given half of the milk promised...because the sweater was not delivered "on time". 

That story has stuck with me for many, many years. There are always people who will take advantage of others.


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## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

jelun said:


> Here in the US we are considered to live in a "nation of laws". We didn't have much argument with this idea until recent years, it seems now that people only like the laws that pertain to others.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here in Canada we live in a country which is "a nation of laws" as well. However, when we purchase an item, we have paid for it and have received a receipt it is ours to do with as we please. I would consider it a compliment if someone wanted to "copy" my work. I have many patterns that are 40 + years old. Today I can find almost any one of those patterns on the web "FOR SALE" by a person who is taking the credit as the original designer. That is not honest as far as I am concerned. I don't make items and sell them. I am blessed I don't have to do that, I always give my completed items to some one who can use them and appreciate receiving the finished item. For those who are trying to etch out a living by making an extra dollar, why would that be so wrong? Why would a "designer" want to take away the opportunity for someone to make a living? I know I will receive comments from those of you who do not agree. But if we all agreed it would be a dull world. I don't wish to take away from the designers, but again why would they want to take away from the "little guy" either? Let's talk about love, peace and helping each other. Blessings, Dorothy


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Some designers actually knit their patterns and sell the completed items...if others do this it creates direct competition for the designer!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

OK, I just spoke to my cousin's wife on line and she brought a whole different point of view into the discussion. She is NOT a knitter..but she is a costumer for the entertainment industry. Her list of credits is pretty impressive! She's dressed Reba McIntyre, Kevin Bacon and many other "well knowns", in movies.

She often seeks out "one of a kind" items and wants to make sure she won't find these items for sale anywhere else...so she works with designers. Say they are making a movie with ultra mega star "Jane Doe" and need a certain type of sweater/vest/whatever. They want an item that is unique and not available just anywhere, so she will contact a designer, who has to be able to ensure that this item is not available on the retail market.

I hadn't even considered that angle.


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## kentish lady (Jun 10, 2011)

l know when l did craft fairs in uk we would get the fair trading people walk around the shows and look at our table ,we didnt know who they were until the until they show there papers l at the time was doing door name plate with the ninga turtles on them, painting them on .this bloke said to me ,"you know those ninga turtles pictures are copy righted ,l suggest you give them away with another item ,and dont make no more " well l never did , but l was lucky that day the bloke was nice about it ,though he did take my name and address ,l can get the disney stuff as well
on the shopping channel they were selling disney card making papers ,they were selling like hots cakes until the lady said you cant sell the finished card personal use only well sales dropped then after


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## mombr4 (Apr 21, 2011)

There has been a lot of great information here re: this copyright post, but people also need to realize when they post a pattern they are looking for and people reply they have it with they email address, or the person looking asks to have it emailed to them with their email address this is also against copyright laws.

If you want to sell a pattern you have, you can sell it. If it is a hard copy you can't send them a copy you have to send them the original, and if it was originally a down load pattern bought and you forward them the pattern then you need to remove it from your computer. This is with patterns, programs and all things that have a copyright one them.

Many people do share patterns and other things but putting it here with email addresses which will come up on a search that anyone does is not safe and is opening the door for designers to find you, which they do look for.

You also don't know who is on the other side of a post when you reply, and they can be a designer looking for people sharing their patterns.

I know someone who had a problem with Schoolhouse press for sharing one of their patterns and they did take action against her.


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## Carlyta (Mar 23, 2011)

Thanks for the info Leonora :lol:


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

I don't think, Dorothy, that most designers are interested in curtailing folks from making a couple of dollars on an item here or there. Realistically, crafting is no way to make a dent in today's expenses for most of us. 
I do think that designers want their efforts recognized, acknowledgment of their efforts and maybe a pittance in compensation. 
The basic point is that it is not really about standing up for ourselves. After all, many of those people are ourselves; they are some for whom the turn of the craft is to development rather than production. 
Of course, the other side of that is that it is hardly worth the transaction for someone to take even 5% of the proceeds of the profit is five dollars, the pattern only being used once or twice for commercial use. 


georgethefifth said:


> jelun said:
> 
> 
> > Here in the US we are considered to live in a "nation of laws". We didn't have much argument with this idea until recent years, it seems now that people only like the laws that pertain to others.
> ...


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

Seems to me that then the designer has to agree not to sell that pattern publicly at all and would be compensated for that.



courier770 said:


> OK, I just spoke to my cousin's wife on line and she brought a whole different point of view into the discussion. She is NOT a knitter..but she is a costumer for the entertainment industry. Her list of credits is pretty impressive! She's dressed Reba McIntyre, Kevin Bacon and many other "well knowns", in movies.
> 
> She often seeks out "one of a kind" items and wants to make sure she won't find these items for sale anywhere else...so she works with designers. Say they are making a movie with ultra mega star "Jane Doe" and need a certain type of sweater/vest/whatever. They want an item that is unique and not available just anywhere, so she will contact a designer, who has to be able to ensure that this item is not available on the retail market.
> 
> I hadn't even considered that angle.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Most designers are "little guys" who are trying to pay their bills, feed their families, etc.. I don't think that anyone here would like to have money taken out of their pockets!

In order to compensate the designer for the loss of all sales of the pattern, the item would be so outrageously priced that the sale would not happen. What the buyer wants is assurance that the item is NOT being commercially produced.


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## Maxine R (Apr 15, 2011)

All I can say I'm so sorry that this has caused such a problem and hope that all can be sorted out without any more problems. I wish you well. Please let us know how you got on. Take care.


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## tence (Jun 16, 2011)

kiwi11 said:


> Interesting- I note that you are designing bags-where did your original idea come from?


my sentiments exactly it has to start from somewhere
and as time and knowledge go on people perfect the patterns and so on like houses ,pants,sweaters , cars, electronic equipment that's how we progress it's called technology or the future we weren't born knowing how to knit or crochet who came up with this in the first place cam anyone name the original crocheter or knitter a single stitch can create so much did betsy ross copyright her design lol


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## Sue Prenter (Mar 27, 2011)

I have read all contirbutions to this debate and have made the following observations
1) the original mistake occured in the UK and any legal dealings will probably be covered by UK law - However the shared issues have really produced healthy debate...
2) the problem appears to be more because the work was claimed to be "all my own" which was factually incorrect
3) having spent time looking at many patterns I have bought on line and in paper form, there is a distinct difference in the advice re copyright and to what it refers. However for the most part this is to be found at the end of the pattern, in the ususal "small print", when most of us are interested in the yarn, tension, etc etc and, I suggest, rarely consider the small print...
4) as with other areas in life, on line communication has allowed us easy access to many patterns, to share and copy without strict restrictions and at the same time has given access to policing what we advertise and sell....

All those who print and sell patterns should make the rules more obvious and use simple language to describe what one may or may not do with the pattern purchased. This will better protect both designers and crafters.... and given that many designers sell their work to third parties then those printing the patterns would do well to make the rules plain and simple

Such issues should be regularly flagged up on sites such as this so that those joining our crafting world are kept abreast of the rules .... We all know ignorance is no excuse but there are those of us who can help and advise others 

No doubt this will happen again but we should, at least on this site, advise new members to take care......

Feel better thats off my chest!!!!

take care everyone I doubt we ever mean to deliberately cause problems for designers and apologies for wrong doing is the best diffuser I know!!


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## Maelinde (Jan 26, 2011)

I totally agree with you Ingrambead. She should have at least asked for permission and then give credit.

A funny story - my husband sat down one day with some graph paper and created an interesting Celtic-Inspired pattern for me to bead up in square stitch. He gave it to me.

I wanted to sell the pattern (with his permission) on a bead patterns website, but they wouldn't allow it since I wasn't the designer. HE had to post it. He didn't want to and said to me that I should have just claimed credit on it. I can't do that as I'm freakishly honest. It made me feel safe knowing that the site was also honest. I'll link it here - http://bead-patterns.com/

Copyright is a serious issue and those of us who do create designs for a living are intent on protecting them. We work very hard to create unique designs and will take it seriously.

I am one of those who search the internet to see if anyone has copied my designs.



ingrambead said:


> I have experienced the same thing with my beadwork. I published a pattern in Beadwork Magazine. I did the work, sent in the photographic illustrations which the magazine changed into drawings. A woman in Texas decided to teach my bracelet claiming it was her own work. BTW she was teaching at a Catholic school. ????? I asked her to stop and she kept saying she "knew" how to do this on her own. She didn't even know the tribal history of the technique nor how I developed into the contemporary item she was teaching. She finally stopped, at least stopped having the information posted on line where I could find it.
> On the other hand I was contacted by the magazine several times for permission for someone to teach the bracelet. I happily granted permission for FREE. The only stipulation from me was that they give me credit for the design and the Magazine usually requests that the students all purchase their own copy of the article. Having someone profit from my hard work and taking credit for my work as their own is not a form of flattery in any way. My soapbox rant completed.


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## Maelinde (Jan 26, 2011)

You could always put the links to the patterns on your site. This would be a nice thing to do as the folks visiting the links might purchase any for sale patterns by the designer you linked to your site. 

Just a thought.



knittingneedles said:


> I am starting an organization for knitting for troops.. I want to put patterns on my site so that it would be easier for people who want to knit..to find the patterns without having to look all over the web..
> 
> I have specifically asked all the designers of the patterns I want to list, for permission to do so..
> 
> If I haven't gotten a response.. I won't put their pattern on the site.. even if it is a free pattern and it is going to a good cause with no money involved..


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

If someone does not have the courtesy to respond, why would a person link to them?



Maelinde said:


> You could always put the links to the patterns on your site. This would be a nice thing to do as the folks visiting the links might purchase any for sale patterns by the designer you linked to your site.
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> ...


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I also search the net to make sure that my copyrighted patterns haven't fallen into the wrong hands.

Sue, how large should the print be? All of my patterns very clearly state that they may not be duplicated, copied, scanned, uploaded to any website, distributed or sold. Books, leaflets, single patterns and magazines that I myself have purchased, very clearly state similar wording. People obviously choose to ignore these caveats and then complain later, when they find themselves in trouble. It doesn't matter what size print is used, if the statement(s) appear at the end or beginning..it's still there.

For those who say designers and publishers are taking too much control, you are free to design your own patterns. That should solve the problem.


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## tence (Jun 16, 2011)

georgethefifth said:


> ZenHooker said:
> 
> 
> > Please cite this alleged court case as I cannot find any such court case in the US. Here's a rundown on the inapplicability of copyright law to patterns for knitting, crochet, sewing, etc.
> ...


thank you for posting that link about useful items now i really don't feel so bad when i share a pattern or when i ask for one seeing that i'm not planning on mass producing the items unless i have hundreds of grandchildren thanks s tence


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## Christi (Feb 3, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> Leya said:
> 
> 
> > Would the copyright laws only apply to copying and reselling the pattern itself? I would think then the manufacturers of the yarn would have a law suit as well for using their yarn in the finished product.
> ...


What about books at the library.....they have knitting/crochet/ embroidery, and cross stitch patterns in them? More than likely those get copied on photocopy machines for personal use all the time..? The libraries distribute the patterns when someone checks them out ...that doesn't seem to be any different then a person buying a pattern and sharing it with a friend does it?


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## petitenwuk (Apr 1, 2011)

tence said:


> georgethefifth said:
> 
> 
> > ZenHooker said:
> ...


I like this bit, it made me smile.

When someone releases patterns into the stream of commerce they effectively have relinquished control over the uses of that pattern. What we find disturbing is that there are so many people who want to believe that a pattern manufacturer or a fabric manufacturer has the right to tell you what you can and cannot do after you buy their product. It just is not so. .............Imagine if General Motors tried to tell you where and when to drive a vehicle you purchased from them. Would you listen to them?


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## Maelinde (Jan 26, 2011)

jltrask said:


> I think if I ever sell anything made from someone's pattern, copyrighted or not, I'll try to contact the designer or publishing company, etc. and get permission. All we can do is our best to follow the laws and try not to cheat anyone. I'd rather err on the side of being too careful than find out I was cheating someone. I think most people would be willing to let you use their pattern as long as you give them credit. If not - well, I'll try something else.


Most designers will often say yes if asked - providing proper credit is given. 

I teach polymer clay in the home party format and use patterns specifically for these classes. Most of my "students" are under age 16 or over age 40. I tell them they can use the patterns for fundraisers, provided they give me the design credit.

These aren't items I'd make and sell, as I have much more detailed and labor intensive designs that are difficult to copy. They're very basic things like covering pens, tins, and simple cane techniques.

Most of the time, my "students" start playing around with polymer clay and end up with some pretty interesting sculpts that they came up with on their own. I teach the basics, they make it into something really neat. Some have given me credit for teaching them how to work with clay, even though what they created wasn't something I had taught. _That_ makes me proud.

That is an instance where I don't mind my patterns are used for profit. Permission was given at the beginning of the class.


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## Maelinde (Jan 26, 2011)

Very well said, KnitPicker!

By the way, I'm in Arlington. We're practically neighbors. 



KnitPicker said:


> The problem is two fold - 1-she made an EXACT copy (color, etc) and 2-sold it. In order to make exact copies, you must be licensed from the originator of the product - the designer, manufacturer, etc.
> 
> I'm a writer. My work is copyrighted. If someone copies my work and calls it theirs and sells it, it is a copyright infringement and I am entitled to their profit for my efforts since I have been "damaged" financially.
> 
> ...


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Christi, a good librarian would never allow anyone to copy patterns from books! Copying patterns that are covered by copyright is verboden, weather done for personal use or financial gain. Doing so robs the designer of income. Copying patterns for friends is the same thing.

People are entitled to be paid for their work, I don't suppose you work for free do you?

It's easy to think that designers are "those people" who won't miss the sale of a few patterns here and there. In reality they are like everyone else, they have bills to pay, families to provide for, retirements to plan for, medical bills, etc..

I was a free lance writer for many years and ONCE someone published work I had produced without paying me for it (they copied the article from a publication that did pay me). I took them to court and I prevailed!! In the long run it cost them more than if they had paid me to begin with. They had to pay my legal bills and the judge set punitive damages on top of actual damages.

If you want to share patterns with your friends, you are free to design your own and pass them around.


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## jltrask (Feb 18, 2011)

Christi said:


> Sewbizgirl said:
> 
> 
> > Leya said:
> ...


If you ask at the library, they will tell you not to copy anything. Of course, they can't control what you do in your own home.


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## Sue Prenter (Mar 27, 2011)

courier770 said:


> I also search the net to make sure that my copyrighted patterns haven't fallen into the wrong hands.
> 
> Sue, how large should the print be? All of my patterns very clearly state that they may not be duplicated, copied, scanned, uploaded to any website, distributed or sold. Books, leaflets, single patterns and magazines that I myself have purchased, very clearly state similar wording. People obviously choose to ignore these caveats and then complain later, when they find themselves in trouble. It doesn't matter what size print is used, if the statement(s) appear at the end or beginning..it's still there.
> 
> For those who say designers and publishers are taking too much control, you are free to design your own patterns. That should solve the problem.


Good point re print size........ I suppose I am trying to suggest an easy way of education! I have a pattern in my possession from Stitch Diva Studios which has two lines at the bottom in tiny print.... I need a magnifying glass to read ... my eyesight isnt that bad really! And also so many patterns are free, or vintage and dont have such wording so again I thin k folk dont know to look

I have worked in a professional capacity for years and chaired many committee meetings ..... hence I find it very difficult now to take part in voluntary or non professional organisations, because the discipline is usually not present... meetings turn into talking shops with few outcomes.. for designers and those who share ideas patterns etc it becomes so frustrating because the "amateur" has no concept of what it means to design and then find others inadvertantly or deliberately passing work off as their own In knitting I think the issue is that when someone purchases the pattern, the purchaser has assumed the pattern now "belongs" to them!!
Its like those who eat but dont cook and complain about the meal offered.....they do not know what is involved.....

I guess this debate is going to run and run... but hopefully lessons are being learned!! Happy knitting without frogging!!! Sue


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## Knitting Nanna in N.Z (Jul 13, 2011)

Re The copy right thing how would one get on if I knitted the article GAVE it to a charity shop and they sold it who then has broken the copyright or are charities exempt from this also this could apply to Hospitals ( neo nate units ) who want to sell excess items to help with fun raising the mind can really boggle at this I must inquire as to our laws. I know about photocopying the pattern and selling that but not selling the finish article


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

So many people are misinformed and distort copyright. I've probably heard it a few hundred times here that it's OK to duplicate a pattern and distribute it if it's not for profit (completely untrue). Ignorance is really no excuse. No court will accept ignorance as a defense for wrongdoing. I know that sounds mean, but it's just true.

Vintage material or material that is not readily available falls into a somewhat gray area, as does "out of print" material. Free patterns that appear on websites, although "free" are still the property of the website owner. Printing them for your own use is fine and directing others to the site is perfectly acceptable...printing out many copies and distributing them...not so cool! Websites that have paid advertisers are paid by the number of "hits" on the site. So they derive income from free patterns posted on their site. We never know who owns a website, it could be an enterprising young person venturing into the world of business. Or it could just as likely be a senior citizen trying to supplement their small retirement or Social Security.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Barbara, you will h ave to read each pattern carefully and see what caveats the designer(s) has placed on it. You could try to contact the designer(s) and explain your unique situation. Charities are not exempt from any laws that the rest of us have to obey..though I suspect you will find designers would give permission for a worthy cause. When you ask...you might want to add that you will give them credit for the pattern design.


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## kiwi11 (Jul 27, 2011)

Personally-I think it's got out of hand-only Americans can afford and doooo sue people for everyting>>>
Unless a person/company/etc has paid for the copyright eg. registered with the powers that be eg. a particular idea/pattern/item etc
they do not have a leg to stand on>>literally......LOL

So sue me I say-if I have inadvertently used an idea that someone says is theirs, every idea was seeded/propogated/grown from someone elses seeds-literally.
Everything has been done before somewhere>>> let's drop this subject now and move on as there are some out there who are afraid/ scared to move on with a project for fear of reprisals.
Bring on the proof of ownership/ originality etc>>>>
Otherwise, keep it to yourself, do not brag/sell your ideas, but keep them only to yourself. LOL

It's a sunny but cool day in Auck NZ about 13 celcius.
Have a great day folks


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

I have forgotten the precise language for US law, generally speaking someone in receipt of a second hand item can assume that the law has been respected and that sales are clean.



Barbara Balks said:


> Re The copy right thing how would one get on if I knitted the article GAVE it to a charity shop and they sold it who then has broken the copyright or are charities exempt from this also this could apply to Hospitals ( neo nate units ) who want to sell excess items to help with fun raising the mind can really boggle at this I must inquire as to our laws. I know about photocopying the pattern and selling that but not selling the finish article


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## jltrask (Feb 18, 2011)

I guess we're all gonna do what we're gonna do - sell'em, use'em, sue'em or forgive'em. Let's all do what we can to support each other - whether by knitting, designing, encouraging, praying... 

God bless.


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## tence (Jun 16, 2011)

jltrask said:


> I guess we're all gonna do what we're gonna do - sell'em, use'em, sue'em or forgive'em. Let's all do what we can to support each other - whether by knitting, designing, encouraging, praying...
> 
> God bless.


i agree God bless us all


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## MarySandra (Mar 23, 2011)

tence said:


> jltrask said:
> 
> 
> > I guess we're all gonna do what we're gonna do - sell'em, use'em, sue'em or forgive'em. Let's all do what we can to support each other - whether by knitting, designing, encouraging, praying...
> ...


That's the real beauty of all of this we can vent, discuss, agree or disagree and then knit.


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## nannykints (Jul 7, 2011)

AMEN TO THAT!!!


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## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

jltrask said:


> Christi said:
> 
> 
> > Sewbizgirl said:
> ...


I have been in libraries over the past 5 years from British Columbia to St. John's. Newfoundland as well as libraries from Maine to Florida. Every library had a copy machine on location to make copies from "books". Whether they are patterns, speeches, quotes etc. I have copied patterns in many libraries & not one librarian told me I could not do so. Maybe I was lucky. Blessings, Dorothy


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## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

kiwi11 said:


> Personally-I think it's got out of hand-only Americans can afford and doooo sue people for everyting>>>
> Unless a person/company/etc has paid for the copyright eg. registered with the powers that be eg. a particular idea/pattern/item etc
> they do not have a leg to stand on>>literally......LOL
> 
> ...


I agree with you. Blessings, Dorothy


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Wait a minute...we're talking about the livelihoods of people. Many of you know who I work for. A customer recently complained that the parts department had to carry their shipments to the office for pick up...or they would be charged for a separate pick up and the complaint got bitter when they said "it's the same damn building". I really try to diffuse situations like these. Being it was an auto dealer/repair facility I said "so if I bring my car in with 2 tires for repair you'll only charge me for one since it's on the same vehicle?". THEN the customer understood.

Very few designers are "wealthy"..they can afford to lose income about as much as any other working person. Mechanics, nurses, teachers, ditch diggers, lawyers, bakers and candlestick makers all deserved to be paid for their work. Please don't deny them what they have earned.

American librarians with a degree will NOT allow copyrighted work to be copied. In the opening pages of any book you will find a statement regarding "ownership" of the material, duplication and copyright.

Just because you "can" do something, doesn't mean you "should".

The global economy stinks! Millions have lost jobs, millions have lost their homes..lets not add to this situation. Putting our neighbors "out of work" should not be a goal.

I had my work stolen once! I brought legal action against the thief. Would you allow someone to "steal" from you and not put up a fight?


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## scrappinmagic (Apr 29, 2011)

I've designed several hot air balloons and bookmarks/zipper pulls. 
This is what I have at the bottom of all my pattern/designs:

-----------------------------------------------------------
You may NOT share this pattern with or sell it to anyone or anywhere. 
You may not sell the completed item through internet sales such as etsy.com/ebay.com/yardsellr.com/listia.com or any other online site.
You cannot claim this pattern as your own. You may use what you complete for personal use or as gifts. 
You may sell completed items at small venues such as your local craft fair. 
You are not permitted to revise this pattern in anyway, shape or form and claim it as your own. 
Please give proper credit for the design to Scrappinmagic Crafts/Karen Lyons if you share pictures of your completed item online or anywhere. 
You may link your picture to http://scrappinmagiccrafts.yolasite.com.
You may not use my pictures for your use. Please take your own pictures of your own completed item.

If you have received or purchased this pattern from someone other than myself, somewhere other than http://www.ravelry.com from me (scrappinmagic), or from my website at http://scrappinmagiccrafts.yolasite.com , or from me directly, please contact me immediately.

All rights reserved
Copyright April 2011 Karen Lyons Scrappinmagic Crafts
[email protected]
----------------------------------------------------------
And it doesn't matter what colors you use, you are still using my pattern/instructions to create the items.

I don't allow internet sales as I sell my designs on the internet and feel it would take away from my own sales to have someone making my designs and selling online.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

People do not design and sell patterns to brag! I cannot believe that was actually said! I'm further shocked that no idea is "new". Cat Bordhi's designs are most certainly "new and innovative". She's just one that comes to mind, there are countless others.

Designers, design and sell for one of three or a combination of three reasons: they enjoy it, they are good at it, they can support themselves by doing it..but bragging isn't in the equation.

Why designers are so maligned and abused shocks me. Why anyone would say that someone's choice of life work is bragging, really upsets me.

Grocery stores aren't going to give you free milk because operating a dairy wasn't their idea! Car manufacturers don't give away vehicles because the original idea came from some fellow named Henry Ford! You can't get out of paying your property taxes by claiming that God created the earth so it should be free!

Scrappin, I will not allow my patterns to be sold on the internet..by ANYONE. It's clear from this discussion that "thievery" is encouraged and prolific!

I've never heard such disrespect for a profession in my life!


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## scrappinmagic (Apr 29, 2011)

courier770 said:


> People do not design and sell patterns to brag! I cannot believe that was actually said! I'm further shocked that no idea is "new". Cat Bordhi's designs are most certainly "new and innovative". She's just one that comes to mind, there are countless others.
> 
> Designers, design and sell for one of three or a combination of three reasons: they enjoy it, they are good at it, they can support themselves by doing it..but bragging isn't in the equation.
> 
> ...


I'm right behind you on all of these points!
I'm always on the *lookout* for my designs being sold by others....completed items and the patterns. And if I see someone selling a pattern on another site that I know is a free download somewhere or for sale, I am one to speak up to the infringer and report them to the designer. I've reported a few that have been removed from the sites they were being sold at. Some of the sites can't always monitor what is being sold and they depend on those of us who are honest to be on the watch for such things.


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## Sue Prenter (Mar 27, 2011)

Here's the thing -
for all of those who feel they cannot "design", there are loads of books and pages on the web giving straight forward instructions - follow them and youll do fine. Check out Debbie Bliss, "Design it Knit It" or "The Sweater Book" (an old favourite now available from 2nd hand stores)
For the more complex patterns and designs - that takes much skill years of practise and much frogging (I am not making light of this) 
I design and knit one off', on both needles and machine - I dont share the patterns because only I understand them (am self taught did not attend art college)

For those of you who "copy" regardless, try knitting without the pattern someone has taken time to design, write up, check etc etc and see how you get on........ 

Lets inject a bit of respect into our craft and acknowledge those who have and are willing to share their knowledge and skills..............

Mistakes are made by all forgive and move on 

Sue


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## Sue Prenter (Mar 27, 2011)

scrappinmagic said:


> courier770 said:
> 
> 
> > People do not design and sell patterns to brag! I cannot believe that was actually said! I'm further shocked that no idea is "new". Cat Bordhi's designs are most certainly "new and innovative". She's just one that comes to mind, there are countless others.
> ...


I support you whole heartedly - see my last post! Sue


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## inishowen (May 28, 2011)

What's the point of a designer publishing a pattern if they then object to knitters using it?


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## Knitting Nanna in N.Z (Jul 13, 2011)

Hi once again just one or two final questions from me if I find a stitch pattern in a book of just stitches e.g for starting knitters and a style in another book then work out the stitches required myself because neither previous sources have the correct size does this make the finished garment my design 

Also if I add lace or similar trim to a bootie basic pattern do I still need permission to sell these


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## Sue Prenter (Mar 27, 2011)

inishowen said:


> What's the point of a designer publishing a pattern if they then object to knitters using it?


The issue arose because the lady had advertised the garment on the web as being all her own work (if you check all the posts made by the originator of the issue you will see what the real issues are)

Designers do not object to knitters using their patterns they object to people using their patterns for commercial gain


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## Sue Prenter (Mar 27, 2011)

Barbara Balks said:


> Hi once again just one or two final questions from me if I find a stitch pattern in a book of just stitches e.g for starting knitters and a style in another book then work out the stitches required myself because neither previous sources have the correct size does this make the finished garment my design
> 
> Also if I add lace or similar trim to a bootie basic pattern do I still need permission to sell these


We all use stitch patterns which have been handed down over centuries of knitting, we all use basic patterns especially when learning , adding trims etc makes your piece unique

check what is said on the pattern some may say reproduction of the document and some may say all or part of the pattern if there is a contact number use it to query 
Always read the small print and you cannot go wrong


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Not all designers object to their patterns being used for commercial purposes. I have no objection if someone PAYS for my patterns and uses them to make items for retail sale. Others DO object for a couple of reasons. The designer may well be using that pattern to "retail" the item and should not have her/his own designed used as competition against them. Another reason is that I have NEVER seen anyone selling knit or crochet items, give credit to the pattern designer.

What we all object to is having our patterns "stolen" and by that I mean this. One person goes into a shop, purchases one of our patterns, comes home and makes 5 copies to "share" with friends, thus denying the designer 5 sales. Multiply that over and over and that's a lot of money out of our pockets. YOU may think you are the only one doing it..but so does everyone else. Ten pattern sales pays for my glaucoma medication, copay ($35.00) for a month!


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## lvchocl8nknitting (Mar 3, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Wait a minute...we're talking about the livelihoods of people. Many of you know who I work for. A customer recently complained that the parts department had to carry their shipments to the office for pick up...or they would be charged for a separate pick up and the complaint got bitter when they said "it's the same damn building". I really try to diffuse situations like these. Being it was an auto dealer/repair facility I said "so if I bring my car in with 2 tires for repair you'll only charge me for one since it's on the same vehicle?". THEN the customer understood.
> 
> Very few designers are "wealthy"..they can afford to lose income about as much as any other working person. Mechanics, nurses, teachers, ditch diggers, lawyers, bakers and candlestick makers all deserved to be paid for their work. Please don't deny them what they have earned.
> 
> ...


The libraries in which I have made copies always have a notice warning not to photocopy items which are protected by copyright. The librarians cannot stand guard at the machines. It is up to the individual to do what is right; copyrighted material is not to be copied just because a machine is available which will do so.


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

scrappinmagic said:


> courier770 said:
> 
> 
> > People do not design and sell patterns to brag! I cannot believe that was actually said! I'm further shocked that no idea is "new". Cat Bordhi's designs are most certainly "new and innovative". She's just one that comes to mind, there are countless others.
> ...


Let me just add that if you see violations on this site (and there have been PLENTY), you should let the Admin. know, so he can take them down. Believe me, he appreciates being told. He can't see everything, everywhere on a big site like this...


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## scrappinmagic (Apr 29, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> scrappinmagic said:
> 
> 
> > I'm always on the *lookout* for my designs being sold by others....completed items and the patterns. And if I see someone selling a pattern on another site that I know is a free download somewhere or for sale, I am one to speak up to the infringer and report them to the designer. I've reported a few that have been removed from the sites they were being sold at. Some of the sites can't always monitor what is being sold and they depend on those of us who are honest to be on the watch for such things.
> ...


Exactly what the admins of other sites will say. They don't have time to sit and police everything that is being posted. They don't want their sites being closed down because someone is doing something wrong.


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## georgethefifth (Feb 17, 2011)

lvchocl8nknitting said:


> courier770 said:
> 
> 
> > Wait a minute...we're talking about the livelihoods of people. Many of you know who I work for. A customer recently complained that the parts department had to carry their shipments to the office for pick up...or they would be charged for a separate pick up and the complaint got bitter when they said "it's the same damn building". I really try to diffuse situations like these. Being it was an auto dealer/repair facility I said "so if I bring my car in with 2 tires for repair you'll only charge me for one since it's on the same vehicle?". THEN the customer understood.
> ...


I have never seen such a sign. Blessings, Dorothy


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## tence (Jun 16, 2011)

sewbiz this was posted on this forum by one of the other members does this not contradict what everybody is saying about copyrights and useful items please help us to understand the difference on what this link says about copyrights if you don't mind

http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml



Sewbizgirl said:


> scrappinmagic said:
> 
> 
> > courier770 said:
> ...


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## grommitt (Apr 12, 2011)

knittingsue said:


> A friend of mine bought a knitting pattern from her local craft shop, she also bought all the wool that she needed to knit the cardigan with. After she had knitted it she sold it on a on line site. Yesterday she received a letter telling her that she was being taken to court as she had broken the copy right laws on the cardigan.She had knitted it in the same colours as the picture on the pattern. She has been told that if you look at the back of a knitting pattern it tells you there that "It is sold on the condition that it is only used for non- commercial purposes". this means that if you knit some thing from a bought pattern do not do it in the same colours as the picture on the pattern. the copy right law not only covers the pattern but it also covers the colours the pattern is knitted in. so if you have a nice pattern that you want to knit and then sell, change one or two of the colours that the pattern is printed in.


Sorry does your friend have a shop ? or knit & sell for a living ?


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## Sue Prenter (Mar 27, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> scrappinmagic said:
> 
> 
> > courier770 said:
> ...


I have sent a PM to Admin drawing their attention to the ongoing debate. Just checked and my message indicates it has yet to be read Sue


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## nannykints (Jul 7, 2011)

I would like to know while we are on this subject..How do you know if something (pattern Book) is or was ever copyrighted?..This question has come up..I have a pattern that was sent to me and I want to give it away will I be breaking the Law if I do?


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

nannykints said:


> I would like to know while we are on this subject..How do you know if something (pattern Book) is or was ever copyrighted?..This question has come up..I have a pattern that was sent to me and I want to give it away will I be breaking the Law if I do?


The FIRST SALE DOCTRINE means that designers make their profit from sale of the design. It also means you cannot make copies to sell or give away. You can give away the original as long as you don't keep a copy for yourself. 
I checked a jpg pattern I purchased and printed on the bottom of each page it states "This pattern may not be reproduced without permission of. . ." A book I have states "All rights reserved" on the page after the title page, and a Leisure Arts leaflet I purchased states on the inside back cover "This publication is protected under federal copyright laws." There are several places this information is given depending on the publisher/designer.


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

tence said:


> sewbiz this was posted on this forum by one of the other members does this not contradict what everybody is saying about copyrights and useful items please help us to understand the difference on what this link says about copyrights if you don't mind
> 
> http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml


Please go and read what I have already posted about that article, on page 3 of this thread.

A person could learn a lot if they read this whole thread...


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

nannykints said:


> I would like to know while we are on this subject..How do you know if something (pattern Book) is or was ever copyrighted?..This question has come up..I have a pattern that was sent to me and I want to give it away will I be breaking the Law if I do?


Copyright is automatic. All published text is copyrighted. You are confusing this with items that are patented, which protects an original idea (not written text.) Patents have to be applied for, copyright does not.

You can go ahead and give your pattern away. You can give or even sell your one original copy, just not make copies from it. It doesn't matter if you have already used the pattern, you can give it or sell it, but not make a copy to keep for your own use. A little common sense goes a long way.

Library books: There is a "fair use" clause in the law that allows for up to 10% of library books to be copied for the borrower's personal use. This is legal. I said this earlier in the thread, too... :roll:


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## Knitting Nanna in N.Z (Jul 13, 2011)

Hi I am number 1 worry wort but I have no desire to finish up in trouble so PLEASE bear with me if I have a pattern taken many years ago from a well know mag. in N.Z. and I knit the article am I doing wrong there is no sign of copyright on the pattern and the mag. no longer prints patterns in it so I cannot check and any pattern I buy if there is no copyright notice on it I can sell the finished item correct or not 

I enjoy reading all the news from this site even if sometimes it causes me to worry

Thanks for all your help and advice


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## Squirrelcat (Jan 25, 2011)

I have to jump in on this: As a professional makeup artist/facepainter I see copyright infringement as a huge issue. One of the groups I am on as a facepainter often posts things for us to take a look and see if our designs are there - usually someone else's website claiming our work as their own. This is often the case with a new painter, and we always make a point (whoever had their work stolen) to contact that person and ask for it to be taken down. As artists our work is our own - yes, you will often see similar designs on multiple websites - we often copy one another (with permission), but the work we show on our sites is our OWN. I really think the knitting/crafting world should see things this way as well.
That said, I had a pattern I posted for sale not that long ago on this site - for those of you that now own copies of it - do you feel that my stating the pattern is NOT FOR SALE but that you can sell the ITEMS you make from the pattern is fair? I hope so!  I deliberately posted it that way because of this very issue - I wouldn't want to see my work somewhere and have to go after someone for selling it (if I find my pattern somewhere I have a recourse now).

Of course, some of you have also mentioned Disney - we in the facepainting world tend to avoid Disney licensed designs in our paintings for the simple reason that Disney WILL go after someone for all they have (and more) for using their designs. On the other side of that dark coin is Marvel Comics (think Spiderman, Batman, etc) - THEY actually encourage facepainters to replicate their designs... they feel it's good publicity. Disney should take a page from their book.

Also, another thing to think on - I can't recall where I read this, but it was in a magazine or book. If you create a knit item and change the way you do your stitches for some of it you now have your own creation. It is VERY difficult to prove that someone's work is exactly the same as someone elses pattern... There is a very fine line between it all, especially as some of us knit tighter than others, and some do continental while others do another style. There are only so many variations of stitch patterns out there to be used, and it can be a daunting task to prove that the sweater someone just sold is your exact pattern.
That said, the original poster's friend made the pattern in question in the same colors and pattern as stated in the directions she purchased so only time will tell if she is able to prove she did not intentionally do it to cause the owner of the pattern any issues.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Read exactly what "fair use" covers. Under fair use copies can be made for the purpose of critiquing, instructional and other "limited" uses. Fair use certainly does not apply to everyone.

People who usually cite "fair use" are just trying to find a way around paying for a book or other published work...tsk, tsk.


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

That is correct, as far as the other question is concerned... how do you know if a pattern has been copyrighted. It does not have to be done through the gov't in the US. It only takes the developer stating that the pattern/story/whatever is copyrighted. Which I guess means that we trust that the designer has done the due diligence in exploring that their design is original.



Bea 465 said:


> nannykints said:
> 
> 
> > I would like to know while we are on this subject..How do you know if something (pattern Book) is or was ever copyrighted?..This question has come up..I have a pattern that was sent to me and I want to give it away will I be breaking the Law if I do?
> ...


----------



## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

Barbara Balks said:


> Hi I am number 1 worry wort but I have no desire to finish up in trouble so PLEASE bear with me if I have a pattern taken many years ago from a well know mag. in N.Z. and I knit the article am I doing wrong there is no sign of copyright on the pattern and the mag. no longer prints patterns in it so I cannot check and any pattern I buy if there is no copyright notice on it I can sell the finished item correct or not
> 
> I enjoy reading all the news from this site even if sometimes it causes me to worry
> 
> Thanks for all your help and advice


Hi Barbara, all "copy" is copyrighted. It is, whether you see the notice or not. Copyright is good for 50 years, or longer if it is purchased or renewed after that time. After that it is said to be "in the public domain". If you are making an item from a very old pattern, it is not likely that you will be challenged legally, even if the pattern is not quite 50 years old.


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

Squirrelcat said:


> Also, another thing to think on - I can't recall where I read this, but it was in a magazine or book. If you create a knit item and change the way you do your stitches for some of it you now have your own creation. It is VERY difficult to prove that someone's work is exactly the same as someone elses pattern... There is a very fine line between it all, especially as some of us knit tighter than others, and some do continental while others do another style. There are only so many variations of stitch patterns out there to be used, and it can be a daunting task to prove that the sweater someone just sold is your exact pattern.


Merely changing some stitches or working the design up in a looser or tighter gauge does not constitute new, original work. If you are taken to court, it will be the judge's decision whether or not you copied someone elses' work, even if you have made some minor revisions. If you relied upon their pattern to get it done, it's not yours.

Just learn from all the patterns you knit, and make up your own, original ones! Knitting is not rocket science. You can do it, it's rewarding, and then you won't have to have any nagging doubts about cheating hanging over you.


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## harmony27 (Jul 29, 2011)

It seems to me that if you sell a pattern, the person who buys it has a right to do whatever with it within reason. Obviously photocopying and selling the pattern would be piracy, but selling what you make with it shouldn't. Everyone has different styles of knitting. If her CO is different, if she knits looser than the original, well, then it's not original. Otherwise, it would be like buying a book and then being sued for writing a book report for school. Intellectual property and all that, if the designer is so worried, she should not have sold the pattern!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

A designer that sells a pattern with "conditional use" is allowed, by law, to limit that use. Though it must be stated at the time of the sale. I don't but other designers do..usually because they are retailing items made from the pattern and do not want to lose sales. The other problem, which I have already cited, is that people who sell hand knit items rarely if ever, give credit to the designer. 

Designers aren't paid by the hour, nor do they collect salaries. These are people just trying to eek out a living and pay their bills, no different from anyone else.


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## harmony27 (Jul 29, 2011)

But they get paid for the pattern in the book, right?


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

I am Canadian living in Canada. As far as copyright laws go in Canada, anything in a Canadian library can be freely photocopied because the Canadian library is a non-profit entity. The Canadian copyright law allowing this was passed in 1997. I got this information from wikipedia. I would suggest that each one from their own country would benefit from looking up their copyright laws as pertains to their county. Each country has their own specific copyright law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_Canada


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## Maxine R (Apr 15, 2011)

How about we wait and see the outcome of that poor lady that has a court case pending to see what happens. This is heading I think down the path the others had headed and that came to a pretty unsettled situation. May one and all think of something else to talk about while we wait, this topic can get terribly confusing to some and uncomfortable to others. All the best to the lady concerned we are with you all the way. Still keep your knitting going as no one can stop you doing that. Could you please pass this to you friend and take care.


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## kiwi11 (Jul 27, 2011)

How about-you all take a chill pill-this is going nowhere>>>>>
There is no disrespect intended-but a bit of the light stuff needs to prevail>>>
Some people are just gettin too precious>>>>>>>>>>>


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## kiwi11 (Jul 27, 2011)

International Copyright

New Zealand is a party to various international agreements relating to copyright, including the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic works, the Universal Copyright Convention, and the Agreement on the Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (the TRIPs Agreement).

These agreements establish certain international standards for copyright protection. They also mean that copyright works created by people in other countries are protected in New Zealand under the Copyright Act. Similarly, other countries that are party to the international agreements must give works originating from New Zealand the same protection that they give works produced by their own nationals. 

Most countries have acceded to one or more of the international agreements.

Two recent copyright treaties update international copyright standards to take into account the development of digital technologies. Those are: 


the WIPO Copyright Treaty; and

the WIPO Performances and Phonographs Treaty.

New Zealand is not party to the WIPO Treaties, but is closer to compliance now that the Copyright (New Technologies) Amendment Act 2008 has come into force.

No formality is required for protection in countries that are party to the Berne Convention or the TRIPs Agreement. However, in a small number of countries that are only party to the Universal Copyright Convention, it is necessary to comply with certain formalities in order to claim copyright.


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## Maxine R (Apr 15, 2011)

kiwi11 said:


> How about-you all take a chill pill-this is going nowhere>>>>>
> There is no disrespect intended-but a bit of the light stuff needs to prevail>>>
> Some people are just gettin too precious>>>>>>>>>>>


Kiwi11
Where in NZ are you from?. This topic has been aired before and caused a lot of trouble and thats where it will end if a stop isn't put in place now.. We all have lots to say on the subject but it always seem to get slightly out of hand and ends up offending some which I know isn't the object of their information they put up. Lets all take a happy pill its amazing the difference it makes


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## chuilady (Feb 21, 2011)

Knittingsue, please keep us updated on this case. It is interesting.
I 'feel' for the defendant. If the plaintif wins the case, the defendant MAY have to pay court costs if it is stipulated in the charge.
Some Solicitors/Lawyers anywhere will take on any case - that's their business, and who turns down business. 
Well...who can sue us if we sell something we knitted in garter stitch? Somebody designed the original garter stitch!!! Maybe their heirs own the copywrite- Ha Ha...These are the cases that clog courts.
On the other hand, Place yourselves in the designer's shoes...I guess...


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## lvchocl8nknitting (Mar 3, 2011)

5mmdpns said:


> I am Canadian living in Canada. As far as copyright laws go in Canada, anything in a Canadian library can be freely photocopied because the Canadian library is a non-profit entity. The Canadian copyright law allowing this was passed in 1997. I got this information from wikipedia. I would suggest that each one from their own country would benefit from looking up their copyright laws as pertains to their county. Each country has their own specific copyright law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_Canada


I'm thinking you may want to read this again.

From wikipedia:
"Phase two of the reform took place in 1997 and saw the Copyright Act of Canada amended with a new remuneration right for producers and performers of sound recordings when their work was broadcast or publicly performed by radio stations and public places such as bars. A levy was introduced on blank audio tapes used for private copying and exclusive book distributors were granted protection in Canada. New copyright exceptions were introduced for non profit educational institutions, libraries, museums, broadcasters, and people with disability, allowing them to copy copyrighted works in specific circumstances without the permission of the copyright owner or the need to pay royalties."

It gives the LIBRARY permission to copy copyrighted works in certain circumstances--not users of the LIBRARY.


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## pugmom5 (Feb 19, 2011)

courier770 said:


> A designer that sells a pattern with "conditional use" is allowed, by law, to limit that use. Though it must be stated at the time of the sale. I don't but other designers do..usually because they are retailing items made from the pattern and do not want to lose sales. The other problem, which I have already cited, is that people who sell hand knit items rarely if ever, give credit to the designer.
> 
> Designers aren't paid by the hour, nor do they collect salaries. These are people just trying to eek out a living and pay their bills, no different from anyone else.


If you ever see my work for sale anyplace, it always has a tag stating "Pattern by xxx, used by permission, web site xxx.
Yarn used.....
knitting done by xxxx"
This way there is no problem with anything. Plus, I have contacted the designer to ask if I may do this...and even send a copy of what exactly my tag will say. If they approve, then I go ahead. If not, I do not use their design. And I make sure the designer knows I do not "mass produce" their design...I may only make one or two for sale. So far, no one has told me no. And many thank me for promoting their designs.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

It gives the LIBRARY permission to copy copyrighted works in certain circumstances--not users of the LIBRARY.

Sorry for any misunderstanding. That is what I thought I said. That is why there is always a copy machine in the libraries that I have been in. lol, have a great day everyone!


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## Aslan (May 22, 2011)

To Bea 465 - How does this affect patterns that have been given to charity shops to help them raise funds? My friend bought a lovely pattern, from such a shop, for a lacy cardi which we both would like to knit for personal use. Has the law been broken by buying a secondhand pattern?
I feel as though I am wading through treacle after following this fascinating thread!!


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## scrappinmagic (Apr 29, 2011)

If it's the ACTUAL pattern she purchased, she's okay. It's making copies and selling the COPIES of patterns that is not allowed.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

I can't quote you chapter and verse of the copyright law, but there were extensive discussions with designers years ago and buying a pattern, book, or chart and then selling or giving away the original WITHOUT keeping another copy for yourself was legal. People buy books, read them and then either give them away or sell them. The pattern your friend bought was given to the charity shop, they in turn sold it. As far as I know that's perfectly legal. Knit something beautiful with it and enjoy.


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## Aslan (May 22, 2011)

To Bea 465 and Karen
Thank you both for your advice. We will certainly enjoy knitting this design but it will be a while before my effort appears on KP. I have five other projects either on the needles or in the design stage.
Jean


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## Elaine Ohs (Jan 27, 2011)

I don't know how this case is going to come out. I know nothing about the courts in the UK. What I do know is if such a case came up in US courts, esp. lower courts, I doubt very strongly that the judge would have a clear understanding of copywrite law seeing how confusing it all is. I'm sure that unless the person could afford a lawyer that specialized in copywrite that the lawyer would probably have less understanding than the judge.

For me, I'm just not going to sell anything I make. Not a big loss. The way I knit I don't think there are many people that would like to buy my stuff.

elaine


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

knittingsue said:


> UPDATE. I have just heard from my friend, she has been to see her solicitor and this is what she has been told.When she bought the pattern she should have read the small print on the back as it clearly said that it was sold for "non commercial purposes". when she listed it for sale she should not have put "all my own work " as this also means that she designed the pattern as well as doing the knitting.she did not ask for permission from the designer to sell the knitted item,and she did not acknowledge the designer. Her solicitor went on to tell her that if she knits any more items to sell from a pattern that she has bought she should never knit them in the same colours as the picture on the pattern ( you can use the same colours if you are giving the item as a gift and no money is given )
> The mistake that my friend made was that she made a true copy of the pattern, she even put the flowers in the same place as was on the pattern. her solicitor is 99% sure that she will not end up in court for this as she has contacted the designer and said how sorry she is for doing this. I think that this is a lesson for all of us, if we find a pretty pattern that we want to knit, change the colours from the picture of the pattern and never list it using the words " all my own work ". I will let you all know what is the outcome of this.


This is in case anyone missed this update. This is also to point out that this particular copyright law is for the UK. Differences in copyright laws do occur and happen in different countries. What necessarily applies to one country does not necessarily hold true for other countries. I would then be bold to say, that before one breaks the copyright laws in their OWN country, be sure and make sure you absolutely know your laws for your own country. The laws are made in each country for the protection and enjoyment of life and liberty for all of its citizens not just a select few. If you are unsure of your copyright laws then talk to a lawyer to make sure where your rights are. These are just my own opinions as to what action/s are right and legal.


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## grommitt (Apr 12, 2011)

thank you for the update 
so we can knit & sell as long as we don't make the pattern the same as the picture on the front ie colour of wool & buttons or detail ? 
also look on the pattern at the back for where it says cannot copy to sell ?


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

grommitt said:


> thank you for the update
> so we can knit & sell as long as we don't make the pattern the same as the picture on the front ie colour of wool & buttons or detail ?
> also look on the pattern at the back for where it says cannot copy to sell ?


The following is for anyone who wants to know about copyright laws and the legal system: You can find out for YOURSELF the copyright laws as pertain to YOU in your OWN country and apply them to YOUR life. We have had papes upon pages upon pages on this topic here and on other postings about copyright laws. It is not fair to have people from other countries trying to figure out the rights and wrongs of the legal systems in other countries. Keep in mind that it is the responsibility of the persons involved to know their rights. If you dont know your rights, then ask a lawyer. It is that simple. I am not going to tell you what your copyright law is as pertains to you in your country. However, I am responsible for myself and my own actions. I am not responsible for anyone elses'.

People can have any opinions they want about the law, but it is the legalities of what the law states that is critical. No opinions can change what the law is in your own county. When it comes to legal aspects of things, opinions dont count. Legal facts do.


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## Maxine R (Apr 15, 2011)

CAN WE NOT WAIT AND READ THE OUTCOME OF THE CASE AND THEN PERHAPS COMMENT ON IT THEN. EVERYONE HAS THEIR OPINION AND I PERSONALLY HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF IT IM SURE MOST OF YOU KNOW WHAT WENT ON BEFORE REGARDING THIS TOPIC. WE ARE UP TO PAGE 17 ALREADY HOW FAR DOES THIS HAVE TO GO. PLEASE FOR PEACE OF MIND CAN WE JUST HOPE THAT ALL ENDS WELL FOR THIS LADY, I CERTAINLY HOPE IT DOES AS I FEEL SHE IS GETTING A RAW DEAL. CAN WE ALL MOVE FORWARD AND STOP FROM GOING BACKWARDS ALL THE TIME ON THE SAME TOPIC. THEY SAY YOU SHOULD LOOK AHEAD NOT BACKWARDS IT WON'T ACHIEVE ANY THING BY DOING THIS AS ITS HAPPENED AND WE CAN'T FIX IT. GOOD LUCK TO YOU. THIS ISN'T MEAN'T TO OFFEND ANYONE SO PLEASE DON'T TAKE IT AS SUCH. YOU ALL HAVE A LOVELY DAY


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

bhmrutherford said:


> CAN WE NOT WAIT AND READ THE OUTCOME OF THE CASE AND THEN PERHAPS COMMENT ON IT THEN. EVERYONE HAS THEIR OPINION AND I PERSONALLY HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF IT IM SURE MOST OF YOU KNOW WHAT WENT ON BEFORE REGARDING THIS TOPIC. WE ARE UP TO PAGE 17 ALREADY HOW FAR DOES THIS HAVE TO GO. PLEASE FOR PEACE OF MIND CAN WE JUST HOPE THAT ALL ENDS WELL FOR THIS LADY, I CERTAINLY HOPE IT DOES AS I FEEL SHE IS GETTING A RAW DEAL. CAN WE ALL MOVE FORWARD AND STOP FROM GOING BACKWARDS ALL THE TIME ON THE SAME TOPIC. THEY SAY YOU SHOULD LOOK AHEAD NOT BACKWARDS IT WON'T ACHIEVE ANY THING BY DOING THIS AS ITS HAPPENED AND WE CAN'T FIX IT. GOOD LUCK TO YOU. THIS ISN'T MEAN'T TO OFFEND ANYONE SO PLEASE DON'T TAKE IT AS SUCH. YOU ALL HAVE A LOVELY DAY


The outcome of the case has already been posted and I also reposted it four posts earlier for anyone who missed it.


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## Maxine R (Apr 15, 2011)

5mmdpns said:


> bhmrutherford said:
> 
> 
> > CAN WE NOT WAIT AND READ THE OUTCOME OF THE CASE AND THEN PERHAPS COMMENT ON IT THEN. EVERYONE HAS THEIR OPINION AND I PERSONALLY HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF IT IM SURE MOST OF YOU KNOW WHAT WENT ON BEFORE REGARDING THIS TOPIC. WE ARE UP TO PAGE 17 ALREADY HOW FAR DOES THIS HAVE TO GO. PLEASE FOR PEACE OF MIND CAN WE JUST HOPE THAT ALL ENDS WELL FOR THIS LADY, I CERTAINLY HOPE IT DOES AS I FEEL SHE IS GETTING A RAW DEAL. CAN WE ALL MOVE FORWARD AND STOP FROM GOING BACKWARDS ALL THE TIME ON THE SAME TOPIC. THEY SAY YOU SHOULD LOOK AHEAD NOT BACKWARDS IT WON'T ACHIEVE ANY THING BY DOING THIS AS ITS HAPPENED AND WE CAN'T FIX IT. GOOD LUCK TO YOU. THIS ISN'T MEAN'T TO OFFEND ANYONE SO PLEASE DON'T TAKE IT AS SUCH. YOU ALL HAVE A LOVELY DAY
> ...


Thank you I did miss that so much to read. Have a nice day


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

Everyone have a nice day! And happy knitting for all!!


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## Dianeks2 (Apr 19, 2011)

wmcav06 said:


> I really don't understand those who don't want items sold that are made from their patterns--that is free advertising for them. Isn't it true that you want to see ALL the designs made by specific designers? How many times have you asked or have been asked where did you get that pattern or whose pattern is that???? I believe the old adage applies--cut off their nose to spite their face. I would shy away from any patterns from that designer, there are too many others out there who love to see the products of their designs are good enough to be sold.


It depends on if the designer is designated.....you see folks wearing sweaters they bought all the time--do you know who designed it? If we were talking about something like a computer program, or a book......if you wrote a book and someone came along and copied it except for making some minor change--say changing the names of the characters....would you be upset? I don't design for my income, but some folks do. They don't deny me the opportunity to work for the insurance company or deny my getting paid if I make an unfavorable decision in their case (usually). Why would I want to deny having a designer get paid. Most of them are not the Nicky Epsteins who have tons of books...most of them are "mom & pop" style operations and they make just meager amount from the work that they could easily spend hours and hours and weeks and months creating.

But, I also have a couple of gig's of "free" patterns that I downloaded off the internet. I actually see both sides. Today is "pay the mortgage day" so I am a little more sensitive to the earning side today.

Diane


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

5mmdpns said:


> The outcome of the case has already been posted and I also reposted it four posts earlier for anyone who missed it.


Well that's what has transpired so far, but it will be interesting to see if the designer actually accepts her apology. I sincerely hope her solicitor's 99% is accurate. I imagine this woman has been going through a lot of upset over this whole situation. Hopefully we have all learned a lesson from her experience.


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## scrappinmagic (Apr 29, 2011)

those of you complaining about it going on for so long.....looks like you can just NOT watch the conversation. There is a button at the top that says *UNWATCH* then it won't show up in your e-mails. Just my opinion.


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## pugmom5 (Feb 19, 2011)

scrappinmagic said:


> those of you complaining about it going on for so long.....looks like you can just NOT watch the conversation. There is a button at the top that says *UNWATCH* then it won't show up in your e-mails. Just my opinion.


I like "your opinion" and I agree 100%. I just find this interesting. I only read and reply to what interests me....as I am sure others do. If I think I can help someone, I try that too. On some posts that I have answered to, I state "Just my opinion". No one should take offense at that.


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## Maxine R (Apr 15, 2011)

scrappinmagic said:


> those of you complaining about it going on for so long.....looks like you can just NOT watch the conversation. There is a button at the top that says *UNWATCH* then it won't show up in your e-mails. Just my opinion.


We are voicing our opinion just as you are. I know that was a poke at me , but as I said it wasn't to affend anyone. You have a lovely day.


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## harmony27 (Jul 29, 2011)

What's interesting for me, although I do not sell my work (give to charity or family), is that I use patterns, but almost always change the pattern somehow to reflect what I want the finished item to say. I almost never use the same color, often change the pattern stitch, or use a pattern stitch in a different shape. Somehow, though, I think the intellectual property may be a little stolen by me, even though I combine. Let's say, I follow a pattern for a hat but make polka dots instead of stripes, I have still depended on that pattern.

But, on the other hand (I think that's 3 hands by now), none of us would be knitting if we didn't use the intellectual gifts of previous generations. Who invented knitting anyway? I read that purling has only been around since the late 1800's. I know this didn't add any usable information, just thoughts. Sorry. BTW, the twin sisters on the puppet which shows in my avatar picture came from a book of European patters, no apparel, just stitching kind of patterns.


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## kiwi11 (Jul 27, 2011)

Not in capitals please-in email speach-this can beperceived as insulting>> thanks


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## kiwi11 (Jul 27, 2011)

Thank you-lets hope that's the end of it>> spoils a fab site when some just go on >>>>>


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## Maxine R (Apr 15, 2011)

kiwi11 said:


> Not in capitals please-in email speach-this can beperceived as insulting>> thanks


It was to get my point across and if you feel that was an insult you have got that terrible wrong. I f you read on you would see. I note you haven't responsed to where in NZ you live, I'm just interested, because there are alot from down under now and thats good to see. Enjoy your day


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## kiwi11 (Jul 27, 2011)

I'm from Auckland


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## lvchocl8nknitting (Mar 3, 2011)

bhmrutherford said:


> CAN WE NOT WAIT AND READ THE OUTCOME OF THE CASE AND THEN PERHAPS COMMENT ON IT THEN. EVERYONE HAS THEIR OPINION AND I PERSONALLY HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF IT IM SURE MOST OF YOU KNOW WHAT WENT ON BEFORE REGARDING THIS TOPIC. WE ARE UP TO PAGE 17 ALREADY HOW FAR DOES THIS HAVE TO GO. PLEASE FOR PEACE OF MIND CAN WE JUST HOPE THAT ALL ENDS WELL FOR THIS LADY, I CERTAINLY HOPE IT DOES AS I FEEL SHE IS GETTING A RAW DEAL. CAN WE ALL MOVE FORWARD AND STOP FROM GOING BACKWARDS ALL THE TIME ON THE SAME TOPIC. THEY SAY YOU SHOULD LOOK AHEAD NOT BACKWARDS IT WON'T ACHIEVE ANY THING BY DOING THIS AS ITS HAPPENED AND WE CAN'T FIX IT. GOOD LUCK TO YOU. THIS ISN'T MEAN'T TO OFFEND ANYONE SO PLEASE DON'T TAKE IT AS SUCH. YOU ALL HAVE A LOVELY DAY


Is this like my daughter saying, "don't eat any more I'm not hungry?"

This is about a lady being made aware of the law, without malice. It is also about the need for the rest of us to not misuse designer's work product. No offense taken, but if you don't want to read any more comments posted here, you don't need to do so. But anyone else with a comment should not have to stop because you've read enough.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

This subject has gone on (as in the past) because like the woman in the original post, so many people are "unaware" of what copyright covers and how it is applied in various countries. 

This is a "discussion" and like any discussion, there is going to be some back and forth.

If you don't care to hear any more on this subject, you are certainly free to ignore it.

Given that so many people have contributed to this posting, with comments and questions, it seems it's an interesting one.

Have a nice day.


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## casd (Aug 4, 2011)

Hi. Just wondering how you would stand if you knitted a jumper with a picture on it - something like Fireman Sam - and then sold it at a craft fayre or something like that but not for profit because the time taken to make it could never be charged for as it would be too expensive


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

The only time, I think, that one would need to look beyond the specific pattern is online, the site may make clear what the expectations are. 
It can be very difficult, I came across a pattern today and am trying to track down the designer as I want to sell product from baby hat designs she has created. It is, indeed, like being a private detective trying to track down Bonnie Brann. The darn pattern is all over the place, but no direct link to her. 
Whining done!



Ronie said:


> Can I assume correctly that if there is NO instructions on how the item may be handled after its made then there's no law against selling it?? or do we need to be detectives and reaserch beyond the pattern? I appologize if this was asked and answered. I got to this post after 6 pages.. I have not read them all yet..


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

I just saw 2 free Bonnie Braun's baby hat patterns on Ravelry. Love the ripple lace one! There was no information on allowed usage of the patterns and I'm wondering if you could contact someone at Ravelry through their 'Contact Us' section to try and get more information. Good luck.


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## margie1992 (Apr 27, 2011)

agreed -- all caps is yelling -- and none of us need to be yelled at


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## Maxine R (Apr 15, 2011)

lvchocl8nknitting said:


> bhmrutherford said:
> 
> 
> > CAN WE NOT WAIT AND READ THE OUTCOME OF THE CASE AND THEN PERHAPS COMMENT ON IT THEN. EVERYONE HAS THEIR OPINION AND I PERSONALLY HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF IT IM SURE MOST OF YOU KNOW WHAT WENT ON BEFORE REGARDING THIS TOPIC. WE ARE UP TO PAGE 17 ALREADY HOW FAR DOES THIS HAVE TO GO. PLEASE FOR PEACE OF MIND CAN WE JUST HOPE THAT ALL ENDS WELL FOR THIS LADY, I CERTAINLY HOPE IT DOES AS I FEEL SHE IS GETTING A RAW DEAL. CAN WE ALL MOVE FORWARD AND STOP FROM GOING BACKWARDS ALL THE TIME ON THE SAME TOPIC. THEY SAY YOU SHOULD LOOK AHEAD NOT BACKWARDS IT WON'T ACHIEVE ANY THING BY DOING THIS AS ITS HAPPENED AND WE CAN'T FIX IT. GOOD LUCK TO YOU. THIS ISN'T MEAN'T TO OFFEND ANYONE SO PLEASE DON'T TAKE IT AS SUCH. YOU ALL HAVE A LOVELY DAY
> ...


Get a life if you read you would see that I did not wish to affend anyone. I'm no stopping anyone from commenting, but how far does one want to take the subject when it has already been aired so many times before. As long as you feel happy thats ok. Have a lovely day (this is not meant to be smart)


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

Yes, it is proper manners not to post everything in capital letters. When things are posted in capital letters the message being sent is in "yelling, rude" format. One or two words being capitalized is ok. Then that is for emphasis. One of the "rules" of the KP is not to post in capital letters as per their regulations. 
Have a nice day folks. Just had a thunder n lightening storm for the last hour, some rain in it but not much. hehe, the grass will grow now!!


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## Maxine R (Apr 15, 2011)

5mmdpns said:


> Yes, it is proper manners not to post everything in capital letters. When things are posted in capital letters the message being sent is in "yelling, rude" format. One or two words being capitalized is ok. Then that is for emphasis. One of the "rules" of the KP is not to post in capital letters as per their regulations.
> Have a nice day folks. Just had a thunder n lightening storm for the last hour, some rain in it but not much. hehe, the grass will grow now!!


Sorry had no idea, will remember that. Thanks for the advice. We are having cold wet weather and our animals are having to get around in muddy paddocks. Just like to say I have got the message and would appreciate it if the subject on capitals was ended. Thank you.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

bhmrutherford said:


> 5mmdpns said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, it is proper manners not to post everything in capital letters. When things are posted in capital letters the message being sent is in "yelling, rude" format. One or two words being capitalized is ok. Then that is for emphasis. One of the "rules" of the KP is not to post in capital letters as per their regulations.
> ...


Not a problem, most people who post in capital letters dont realize what they are actually doing. Like knitting, it often takes another knitter to teach knitting skills and techniques. No one begrudges someone else who is learning! 
What are you knitting?? Are you someone who gets all kinds of works in progress all over the place?? Chuckles, I had this problem once because there were so many sock projects on the go that I ran out of needles to start anymore!! I had to finish them up so I could keep knitting! Now I will only have a couple on the go at once!


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

I am trying to be patient about a response, it just seems so strange that her designs are sitting in so many places with no ability to contact her. I actually tried Knitting on the Net as that is where I saw them first. Crossing my fingers and saying a little prayer.



Bea 465 said:


> I just saw 2 free Bonnie Braun's baby hat patterns on Ravelry. Love the ripple lace one! There was no information on allowed usage of the patterns and I'm wondering if you could contact someone at Ravelry through their 'Contact Us' section to try and get more information. Good luck.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Have you tried Facebook? Have you tried to see if she is a member of Ravely? Have you googled to see if she has her own website?

Zabasearch.com is a good search engine for people...but only if you know their full name, the state they live in and approximate birth date.


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

Yes, thanks. All good suggestions. There are several on facebook, none have any mention of knitting. So I will save that as a last resort rather than make people nervous about some stranger getting in touch. 
I did check Ravelry, no luck there. Lots of submissions from folks who have used the pattern(s), just no Bonnie. 
The only thing that comes up with a search is those patterns. 
Learning patience is character building, they say. Whoever they are.



courier770 said:



> Have you tried Facebook? Have you tried to see if she is a member of Ravely? Have you googled to see if she has her own website?
> 
> Zabasearch.com is a good search engine for people...but only if you know their full name, the state they live in and approximate birth date.


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

I got in touch with Knitting on the Net as they seem to be the original source. No point in making busy folks do duplicate work. Good suggestion, tho. Thanks.



Bea 465 said:


> I just saw 2 free Bonnie Braun's baby hat patterns on Ravelry. Love the ripple lace one! There was no information on allowed usage of the patterns and I'm wondering if you could contact someone at Ravelry through their 'Contact Us' section to try and get more information. Good luck.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Here's another suggestion. When you google her name and patterns come up, do you come up with one site that seems to carry many of her patterns or one shop that does? They might know how to contact her.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

What are the names of the baby hat patterns? I am curious to see if I would like to make them.
When I put Bonnie Braun into the google search, there were all kinds of names that came up but none were for knitting related things. Perhaps her name is a pseudoname??
Just a thought. Have a great day! It is Friday and the weekend is almost here!! tgif


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

The pattern is at knitting on the net, it is listed as "Ripple Eyelet Baby Hat" and her name is Bonnie Brann, no U two Ns. 
The spelling got lost in the translation a couple of posts up.
Oh, and the second is a cabled hat, if you do the Bonnie Brann search both come up, I think.



5mmdpns said:


> What are the names of the baby hat patterns? I am curious to see if I would like to make them.
> When I put Bonnie Braun into the google search, there were all kinds of names that came up but none were for knitting related things. Perhaps her name is a pseudoname??
> Just a thought. Have a great day! It is Friday and the weekend is almost here!! tgif


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

thanks Jelun. I am off to look up the hat patterns. I am looking for a hat and booties to go with the Baby Surprise Jacket. Stepson and his wife are having their first little one in a couple of weeks. I am hoping that I will have the BSJ pattern in time to knit for her Christmas present. I dont want to get the yarn yet because I dont know if she will have allergies to certain wools/yarns.
tgif!! :-D :-D :-D :-D


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

How nice! This eyelet pattern is a nice feminine looking one.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

Isnt it though?? Very cute and pretty for a little baby girl! The matching sweater is pretty too but I think I want to knit up the BSJ of EZimmermann. The color of yarns should tie them together.


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

no doubt, it looks like a quickie sweater though, maybe you can do both. HAHAHA


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## harmony27 (Jul 29, 2011)

I had to laugh when I looked at those patterns. I've been knitting baby hats for charity for about 4 years and I compiled a lot of patters. Those two were among the very first patterns I collected. The ripple one, I wasn't crazy about and the cable, well, I love using a cable needle, so if I'm going to do a cable stitch, I want it to be big enough to require a cable needle. It's good to have a URL now in case I ever decide to sell one of those hats- which is unlikely. I've enjoyed this thread. It was mind expanding which is always a good thing, even if it causes friction. Friction is good, without it there'd be no movement.


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## mavisb (Apr 18, 2011)

What if she had put a label in the garment stating that the item was knitted from a pattern giving the persons name who designed the item, would that have worked.


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## jelun (Jan 26, 2011)

So? Did we ever get a final resolution on this?



knittingsue said:


> A friend of mine bought a knitting pattern from her local craft shop, she also bought all the wool that she needed to knit the cardigan with. After she had knitted it she sold it on a on line site. Yesterday she received a letter telling her that she was being taken to court as she had broken the copy right laws on the cardigan.She had knitted it in the same colours as the picture on the pattern. She has been told that if you look at the back of a knitting pattern it tells you there that "It is sold on the condition that it is only used for non- commercial purposes". this means that if you knit some thing from a bought pattern do not do it in the same colours as the picture on the pattern. the copy right law not only covers the pattern but it also covers the colours the pattern is knitted in. so if you have a nice pattern that you want to knit and then sell, change one or two of the colours that the pattern is printed in.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

knittingsue said:


> UPDATE. I have just heard from my friend, she has been to see her solicitor and this is what she has been told.When she bought the pattern she should have read the small print on the back as it clearly said that it was sold for "non commercial purposes". when she listed it for sale she should not have put "all my own work " as this also means that she designed the pattern as well as doing the knitting.she did not ask for permission from the designer to sell the knitted item,and she did not acknowledge the designer. Her solicitor went on to tell her that if she knits any more items to sell from a pattern that she has bought she should never knit them in the same colours as the picture on the pattern ( you can use the same colours if you are giving the item as a gift and no money is given )
> The mistake that my friend made was that she made a true copy of the pattern, she even put the flowers in the same place as was on the pattern. her solicitor is 99% sure that she will not end up in court for this as she has contacted the designer and said how sorry she is for doing this. I think that this is a lesson for all of us, if we find a pretty pattern that we want to knit, change the colours from the picture of the pattern and never list it using the words " all my own work ". I will let you all know what is the outcome of this.


Jelun, this was posted on page 10 of this topic. So yes, the issure was resolved. I had also reposted this a few pages ago for anyone who had missed it. Have a wonderful day everyone!!


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

Just want to restate: In the USA the designers don't care if you use the same colors or not. If you sell something that they say, "No sales of finished products," the courts don't care what color it is. They only care about the implied contact between pattern buyer (you) and designer. And this does apply to free patterns.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

5mmdpns said:


> knittingsue said:
> 
> 
> > UPDATE. . . . . I will let you all know what is the outcome of this.
> ...


I was wondering if knittingsue had a further update. She did post that "I will let you all know what the outcome of this." So I thought there would be another update sometime.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

Bea 465 said:


> 5mmdpns said:
> 
> 
> > knittingsue said:
> ...


I believe that was the update. Nothing more has been heard from Knitting Sue about this so I would assume that it has all been resolved as per that post, which was her last post. Her last post was August 1/11.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

Thanks 5mmdpn.


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## glacy1 (Sep 30, 2011)

This may have been addressed ad nauseum, if so.. sorry.. I did not read all twenty pages of posts..



jelun said:


> While I agree with you, the law is the law. Too bad it is not clarified to some extent for lay people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In the USA, the copyright laws indicate that although one can copyright their designs, they cannot dictate what is done with the finished product if someone else makes it. Here is a link to the Copyright office website. I did a search under 'useful articles'.

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl103.html

Pay attention to the last paragraph where it says:

Copyright in a work that portrays a useful article extends only to the artistic expression of the author of the pictorial, graphic, or sculptural work. It does not extend to the design of the article that is portrayed. For example, a drawing or photograph of an automobile or a dress design can be copyrighted, but *that does not give the artist or photographer the exclusive right to make automobiles or dresses of the same design.*

Just saying.. if you don't want people to 'use' your patterns, don't publish them. It's not like they are opening a factory and making millions of items from the single pattern that they bought. The copyright protects the designer from others making and selling COPIES of the pattern (infringement!), not from someone else buying your design and then opting to buy yarn, needles, time, labor, and selling a few of items of your design.

Simply, it's the (U.S.) law that you cannot dictate to others what they can do with the 'useful article' even if they did use someone else's pattern.. Unless the image was licensed, like Mickey Mouse, Angry Birds, Smurf's, college icon images.. Then one would have to get a license from the creator of the trademarked item. Trademarked, licensed, and copyrights are all different things.

_Personally, I do my best to contact the designer, if I can, tell him/her that my friend and I wish to make and sell a few 'finished items' made from their designs at our Craft Bazaar, and want permission before spending our time, effort and money on something we cannot sell. So far, I've never had anyone tell me that I could not sell a few items, as long as I am not selling the pattern or (factory) mass producing the item from their design by the thousands. Sounds fair to me and apparently to them as well. There are enough patterns without those restrictions (by the designer) that I feel it is courtesy to respect their wishes and choose another design that we CAN sell finished products from. If I design something and want to be the only one who can sell that finished item, I would not publish the pattern, by selling or giving the pattern away on the internet. It's the same as a recipe.. Once it's out there, published, how can one dictate that moms that feel that is their favorite cake recipe cannot sell those cakes at a school bake sale? It's kinda the same thing. _


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## petitenwuk (Apr 1, 2011)

English copyright laws are different to American, and the courts don't take kindly to small matters being taken there. 

Why publish a pattern like GLACY1 said and then not let you SELL the finished product, seems strange to me. 

Also what happens when you send it to the charity shop....should they be able to sell it? or is there a different law to them


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

I think that some have missed the purpose of this particular lawsuit against the knitter. Her mistake was not in selling the item, but in claiming that she had done all this herself. She did not give the designer of the pattern credit for doing the pattern, instead she claimed it as her own. 
I agree with Petitenwuk though, when it comes to copyright laws, they are different between countries and even some US states. I am from Canada and some things are different too. No matter what country you live in, if you intend to do business with knitting, you should contact a lawyer so you understand the copyright laws in your place of residence. And that is also why when you have a pattern that you would like to make and sell, you should contact the designer and explain what you would like to do. Get the written permission from him/her to sell your knitted item/s. If they dont give it to you, then find another pattern to make. There are many of them out there.


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## mombr4 (Apr 21, 2011)

I totally agree with you on this, if you don't have it in writing that you can sell the finished project find another pattern.

I know someone personally that a company went after for not only sharing a pattern but for selling the finished project. they felt that the many copies she gave out of their pattern they lost the income from selling that pattern. This all came from someone from their company joining a group and came upon her offering to share their pattern.

I say why take chances, just request their permission.


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## jemima (Mar 26, 2011)

mombr4 said:


> I totally agree with you on this, if you don't have it in writing that you can sell the finished project find another pattern.
> 
> I know someone personally that a company went after for not only sharing a pattern but for selling the finished project. they felt that the many copies she gave out of their pattern they lost the income from selling that pattern. This all came from someone from their company joining a group and came upon her offering to share their pattern.
> 
> I say why take chances, just request their permission.


Lost income from selling a pattern does this also include patterns that are free patterns copied from sites.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

jemima said:


> mombr4 said:
> 
> 
> > I totally agree with you on this, if you don't have it in writing that you can sell the finished project find another pattern.
> ...


No, because they're free. The designer didn't expect to earn income from them. However, if you want to sell things knit from free patterns I think you have to look at the pattern or the designer's website. I'm making a free pattern now and on the designer's website it states "Do not sell pattern or sweaters made from it. For your personal use and charity knitting only." There isn't anyting on the pattern which I downloaded from another site so you have to be careful and do some research.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

Bea 465 said:


> jemima said:
> 
> 
> > mombr4 said:
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Many patterns contain the caveat that items cannot be made from it and sold. I've come across them myself and as a designer I respect the fact that the designer holds the artistic property.

Recently I came across one for the second time...a cute little ducky hat for babies. It was designed by a person who did so for the purpose of charity. They designed this very darling hat to be made for personal use or charitable use.

This is about respect, and trust me the courts will rule on the side of the designer..it's NOT a waste of the courts time!


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## Maxine R (Apr 15, 2011)

Just a quick note. Im amazed to see that this subject is still being brought up, even after a long gap in between. I thought that it had been sorted out in previous threads. Guess any subject never goes away, at some stage it rears it head again and off we go


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

The nuances of copy right will probably rage on, long after most of us have become dust. I hold copyright on many of my designs....in my fondest dreams they will provide for my grand daughter long after I am gone.


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## Hoosier Grandma (Oct 14, 2011)

This is unbelievable! I could see if she sold the pattern to other people, but not the finished product. In fact she is helping market the pattern cause other people would buy the pattern and make sweaters too! Aren't there bigger problems in the world like terrorism, murders, selling illegal drugs? Leave us knitters alone! We aren't hurting anyone.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoosier Grandma said:


> This is unbelievable! I could see if she sold the pattern to other people, but not the finished product. In fact she is helping market the pattern cause other people would buy the pattern and make sweaters too! Aren't there bigger problems in the world like terrorism, murders, selling illegal drugs? Leave us knitters alone! We aren't hurting anyone.


But the one who holds the copyright to the pattern would tell you otherwise. For many of them, these patterns and the money they generate are the income of that person who does design them. One often forgets about that fact.


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## nittineedles (Apr 14, 2011)

jemima said:


> Lost income from selling a pattern does this also include patterns that are free patterns copied from sites.


Yes, free patterns are under copyright as well. Admin deleted an entire thread when no less than 12 people illegaly copy & pasted one of my free patterns here in Knitting Paradise.


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## grommitt (Apr 12, 2011)

On happier note is there anything out there that is good ?


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

I wrote out a pattern for tube socks and posted it here on Knitting Paradise. I would suppose many have copied it. But that is ok as I did explain the pattern was from my head, and free for anyone who wished to use it, copy it, and make the socks from it. It is still up and has not been removed. I am not sure what happened with Nitineedles stuff -- perhaps because you also have your own business? sell on etsy?


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