# Tuck or Lace stitch question



## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

If someone could help me I would appreciate it. I've been trying to knit either a tuck st. or a lace st. on my knitting machine. When the pattern calls for three strands of yarn to be held and then knit off, those sts. won't knit and I get big loops. I've used heavy weights, tried different yarns and played with my tension. Is there something I'm not doing or is there a secret to doing this. I can do a tuck or lace pattern if the yarn isn't held over so many times. My machine is a Brother 970.
Thanks,
Jeanne


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## jaysclark (Jan 26, 2013)

JeanneHolmes said:


> If someone could help me I would appreciate it. I've been trying to knit either a tuck st. or a lace st. on my knitting machine. When the pattern calls for three strands of yarn to be held and then knit off, those sts. won't knit and I get big loops. I've used heavy weights, tried different yarns and played with my tension. Is there something I'm not doing or is there a secret to doing this. I can do a tuck or lace pattern if the yarn isn't held over so many times. My machine is a Brother 970.
> Thanks,
> Jeanne


Check the pattern you are using, refer to charts in the back of stitch world 3. Some tuck need certain needles out of work.

You cannot tuck 2 needles together, horizontally


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## ValT (Aug 15, 2012)

What pattern are you using? Is it tuck, tuck lace or just lace?
Also is your sponge bar in good condition?
Maybe the 3 strands of yarn is just too thick for the 970 to handle.
Val


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## Rita in Raleigh (Aug 20, 2011)

I sometimes have to use the weaving brushes along with the rubber tuck wheels to help my loops knit off. Also sometimes I use a lot of weight.....I mean using the big ribber weights....sometimes 4 of them or more!

Three loops on a needle should not be too many. Did you remember to use a looser tension number than you would use with the same yarn in stockinette? 

Hope some of these ideas help you.


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## Rita in Raleigh (Aug 20, 2011)

If you are doing tuck lace (needles our of work while doing tuck) you need the carriage set on KCII.


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

ValT said:


> What pattern are you using? Is it tuck, tuck lace or just lace?
> Also is your sponge bar in good condition?
> Maybe the 3 strands of yarn is just too thick for the 970 to handle.
> Val


Hi Val ---It is just tuck, or just lace, and my sponge bar is new.
I explained the yarn wrong. I'm only using 1 strand of yarn but it is held once on row 1, then held again on the same needle on the second row, and again on the third row. On the fourth row it should knit the three stitches off, but I just got loops and they don't knit off. Thanks for the response.
Jeanne


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

Rita in Raleigh said:


> If you are doing tuck lace (needles our of work while doing tuck) you need the carriage set on KCII.


Thanks Rita
I'll do that.
Jeanne


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

jaysclark said:


> Check the pattern you are using, refer to charts in the back of stitch world 3. Some tuck need certain needles out of work.
> 
> You cannot tuck 2 needles together, horizontally


Thank you,
I will check the charts in the book. These machines are such a challenge (for me) but I just love it.
Jeanne


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## rainbirdoz (Nov 7, 2012)

JeanneHolmes said:


> Hi Val ---It is just tuck, or just lace, and my sponge bar is new.
> I explained the yarn wrong. I'm only using 1 strand of yarn but it is held once on row 1, then held again on the same needle on the second row, and again on the third row. On the fourth row it should knit the three stitches off, but I just got loops and they don't knit off. Thanks for the response.
> Jeanne


Jeanette, could you post a photo of it as it is on the machine so that we can see exactly what is happening, it is difficult to understand when you say they don't knit off, you just get loops. What weight yarn are you using? If the yarn is too heavy it would be difficult to hold three loops on a Japanese machine. Is the carriage stiff to push? What pattern number are you using?

Sheila
Western Australia


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

rainbirdoz said:


> Jeanette, could you post a photo of it as it is on the machine so that we can see exactly what is happening, it is difficult to understand when you say they don't knit off, you just get loops. What weight yarn are you using? If the yarn is too heavy it would be difficult to hold three loops on a Japanese machine. Is the carriage stiff to push? What pattern number are you using?
> 
> Sheila
> Western Australia


Thanks Sheila
Hear's a picture of the mess. I was trying to use #254 tuck pattern and #142 for the lace.
Jeanne


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## ValT (Aug 15, 2012)

Hi Jeanne
Thanks for posting a photo. I assume the yarn is handknit yarn, as it looks like it has a very loose ply. Can you try it with a finer machine knit yarn?
Val


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## meknit (Dec 5, 2012)

put extra weights on each end and let it all fall over the ribber not between bed and ribber. If need be until it is long enough to go over the ribber, pull it down with your hand when doing the fourth row.


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## AncientWire (Jul 6, 2013)

I have a 970 and I remember a pattern doing a loopy mess for me as well. I can't remember how I fixed it, so I went back to my notes and they say, "Hit enter one more time than you think you need to." I know that this was when I had first gotten my machine, so this may not be your problem, but I offer it as a suggestion.


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## Rita in Raleigh (Aug 20, 2011)

Okay, pattern # 254 is a tuck lace pattern. See page 82 in the StitchWorld III book. There are 3 needles in work and one out of work (in A position) all across the width of the knitting. The diagram on page 82 shows that needle number 2 on the right of the center(and every fourth needle after that and before that) is in A position.

I do not know why the StitchWorld III did not label these designs as Tuck Lace.

You did not post a photo of #142 the lace pattern.

Rita in Raleigh


JeanneHolmes said:


> Thanks Sheila
> Hear's a picture of the mess. I was trying to use #254 tuck pattern and #142 for the lace.
> Jeanne


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## KnittyGritty800 (Apr 1, 2014)

Are the levers on your carriage (cams) set correctly? Try using a transfer tool to move the three loops into the hook portion of the needle (putting yarn and needles into work position), making sure they are under the little latch. When they are all manually put back into work position, try to run your carriage to knit one row. This will tell if you if the yarn is too thick for the tuck pattern. If it does knit perfectly (including the three "carried" strands, then I would strongly suspect your carriage settings are incorrect or you need to add rubber wheels or brushes to it. As previously suggested, you may need additional weight to hold the loops in position until the plain row is knit.


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

ValT said:


> Hi Jeanne
> Thanks for posting a photo. I assume the yarn is handknit yarn, as it looks like it has a very loose ply. Can you try it with a finer machine knit yarn?
> Val


Hi Val - The white yarn was Panama which may have been too heavy for lace or tuck, so I then tried a very fine cotton green yarn, and the same problem happened. I'm going to try a tuck stitch again tomorrow. I've been able to to a tuck stitch without a lot of big spaces in the pattern - such as pattern #221 or #249 seen below.


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I really appreciate your help.
Jeanne


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

Rita in Raleigh said:


> Okay, pattern # 254 is a tuck lace pattern. See page 82 in the StitchWorld III book. There are 3 needles in work and one out of work (in A position) all across the width of the knitting. The diagram on page 82 shows that needle number 2 on the right of the center(and every fourth needle after that and before that) is in A position.
> 
> I do not know why the StitchWorld III did not label these designs as Tuck Lace.
> 
> ...


Rita - the lace pattern came out almost identical to the loopy picture of the tuck lace.


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## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

For the Tuck pattern did you have the needles out of work like Rita said? If you didn't then this pattern wont knit correctly. 
Lace pattern #142 (and probably the tuck as well) needs quite a fine yarn. I have knit this on my 970 without a problem but I can't imagine it knitting in a heavy yarn, or a yarn that doesn't give easily. 
I think it's also a case of trying different stitch settings to find the one that the stitch pattern combined with the yarn you are using, the machine likes best. Check the upper tension on the mast also, because if this isn't correct then you can end up with the problems that you are getting.


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

susieknitter said:


> For the Tuck pattern did you have the needles out of work like Rita said? If you didn't then this pattern wont knit correctly.
> Lace pattern #142 (and probably the tuck as well) needs quite a fine yarn. I have knit this on my 970 without a problem but I can't imagine it knitting in a heavy yarn, or a yarn that doesn't give easily.
> I think it's also a case of trying different stitch settings to find the one that the stitch pattern combined with the yarn you are using, the machine likes best. Check the upper tension on the mast also, because if this isn't correct then you can end up with the problems that you are getting.


Thanks Suz for taking the time to answer. I will try all the suggestions given and I'm sure to have success. One of the problems may have been the yarn. Tommorrow we'll try again.
Jeanne


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## ValT (Aug 15, 2012)

Hi Jeanne
Have you moved the rubber wheels forward into working position? 
You need to remove the sinker plate and push the rubber wheels into working position. This can cause looping if the wheels are not in the forward position. The pic shows the rubber wheels in the normal (back) position. Just use a little thumb pressure to slide them forward.
Clean any lint from the brushes. The brushes should be as shown in the pic - not splayed out.
As Susieknitter said - for the tuck lace pattern you need to have a needle out of work. From your pic, it doesn't look like you have every 4th needle out of work which this pattern specifies. Ensure you select the correct one to put oow.
Val


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## ValT (Aug 15, 2012)

Just read this article from Mary Ann Oger's blog
'What every brother machine knitter should know'
http://www.knitwords.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/what-every-brother-knitter-should-know.html
Mmm ... v. interesting.
Val


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

I'm working until 1:00 today, and you can bet I'll be on that machine as soon as I get home to try the pattern again. I wasn't putting the needles out of work. I can't wait to try it. I'll send you a picture of the work as soon as I knit it. Thanks ever so much for all your time and help.
Jeanne


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## meknit (Dec 5, 2012)

at a closer look this looks like the the number 3 tuck card for a singer knitting machine, am not sure what number that would be for a brother machine, and for this one it has to go over the ribber. if you do needles out of work it becomes a tuck lace and same thing applies over the ribber it goes.


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## ValT (Aug 15, 2012)

meknit said:


> at a closer look this looks like the the number 3 tuck card for a singer knitting machine, am not sure what number that would be for a brother machine, and for this one it has to go over the ribber. if you do needles out of work it becomes a tuck lace and same thing applies over the ribber it goes.


They're definitely Brother Stitchworld III patterns - I looked them up in my pattern book.
The patterns do not involve a ribber.
Val


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

ValT said:


> Hi Jeanne
> Have you moved the rubber wheels forward into working position?
> You need to remove the sinker plate and push the rubber wheels into working position. This can cause looping if the wheels are not in the forward position. The pic shows the rubber wheels in the normal (back) position. Just use a little thumb pressure to slide them forward.
> Clean any lint from the brushes. The brushes should be as shown in the pic - not splayed out.
> ...


Val - is it correct to put the small " o " in between the rest of the stitches in the center of the bed?


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## meknit (Dec 5, 2012)

Yes Jeanne, it is correct to leave the "0" needle out of work.
here are some views of what it will look like. it is for a Singer but the brother will work up the same way.


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

meknit said:


> Yes Jeanne, it is correct to leave the "0" needle out of work.
> here are some views of what it will look like. it is for a Singer but the brother will work up the same way.


Thank you - I'm still working on it. I realized that this is called tuck lace. On the third row of the pattern 254 the needles are 3 tog in B position on the third row, and there aren't supposed to be any needles together in B. Is this true? I just love the patterns you've shown me and recognize the needle positions.
Jeanne


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## ValT (Aug 15, 2012)

I haven't done this pattern, but for me, when you do tuck lace the needles that you have selected to be out of work, stay out of work and the needle arrangement remains the same throughout the pattern.
It is essential that you select the correct needles to be out of work to match what the pattern requires.
Val


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## Rita in Raleigh (Aug 20, 2011)

Jeanne,
The diagram on page 82 of your stitchworld manual shows a 4 stitch by 4 row design.

This design comes up centered on your needle bed. The 4 stitch pattern starts on Left 2 and goes through Right 2 (and repeats over and over to the right and to the left, without reversing) for as many needles as you have in work.

As the diagram shows, the needle out of work is the needle numbered Right 2. (Count the needles, diagram shows Left 2, Left 1, Right 1 and Right 2) The needle that is out of work is the one on the white (not selected or what would be B position IF that needle were in work) column.

If you want to knit this pattern over needles 20 Left through 20 right, you would leave these needles out of work:
Left 19
Left 15
Left 11
Left 7
Left 3
Right 2
Right 6
Right 10
Right 14
Right 18

You said " On the third row of the pattern 254 the needles are 3 tog in B position on the third row, and there aren't supposed to be any needles together in B. Is this true? "

If you look carefully, you will see that you do NOT have 3 needled together in B position because the center needle of those 3 is OUT OF WORK.

Once you put those needles out of work, they stay in A position, which is out of work, until you finish knitting.

So, perhaps we interpreted your quote below incorrectly. The small o (needle out of work) must go on Right 2 (and others as I showed above).

It is a bit difficult to get your head around, I know, but sit at the machine and give it a try.



JeanneHolmes said:


> Val - is it correct to put the small " o " in between the rest of the stitches in the center of the bed?


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

Rita in Raleigh said:


> Jeanne,
> The diagram on page 82 of your stitchworld manual shows a 4 stitch by 4 row design.
> 
> This design comes up centered on your needle bed. The 4 stitch pattern starts on Left 2 and goes through Right 2 (and repeats over and over to the right and to the left, without reversing) for as many needles as you have in work.
> ...


Hi Rita - the needles are now in the right position and I took a picture of what I now have.

I also tried putting in my fine needle bar, but it didn't seem to make much difference.


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## dialknit (Oct 17, 2012)

Hope this is not too basic, but have you got your numbered needle strip in the right place, if it is 1 space out it could be throwing your needle selection off.


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## ValT (Aug 15, 2012)

On the short length that did knit before it went wrong, did it look as if it was producing the right pattern?
Couldn't see the needle arrangement on the RH side.
I am leaning towards thinking that the wrong needles have been selected to be out of work.

Can you do a smaller swatch - then we will be able to see both the L and R edges if you post a pic.
Please also can you show the knitted pattern in the pic.

Hang on in there ... we'll get it sorted eventually.

Val

PS: on your last pic, the LH edge looks like you have 1 needle oow, followed by only 2 needles in work (should be 3) - this could be the problem


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

dialknit said:


> Hope this is not too basic, but have you got your numbered needle strip in the right place, if it is 1 space out it could be throwing your needle selection off.


Hi - I just checked it and my number strip is in the right place. Thanks,
Jeanne


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

ValT said:


> On the short length that did knit before it went wrong, did it look as if it was producing the right pattern?
> Couldn't see the needle arrangement on the RH side.
> I am leaning towards thinking that the wrong needles have been selected to be out of work.
> 
> ...


Just went grocery shopping - Will work on this in an hour or so.
Thanks Val,
Jeanne


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## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

When you program any pattern into the KH970 it tells you the first needle position, here the first needle position can be altered, so make sure that you don't do this and it stays on L2.
In case you don't know what this refers to....it is the first needle used on the left side of the pattern. Seeing that this pattern is 4st wide then the first needle position should read L2 as I have already stated. From the left 2 needle (orange side of the tape) you will have 3st in work (B position) and then one out of work (A position) Get this section right first and then make it so that you have 3 needles in work followed by one out of work right across the bed.
Looking at the pattern on page 82, the first 3 blocks show a needle beneath them telling you that you need needles for these 3 stitches and the 4th/last block shows a O (minus needle) telling you this one is left out of work/a needle isn't needed.
Hope that you can understand this....Sue.

I have just realized that Rita has already informed you how this needle set up works. If you have the needles already in the correct formation and are still having problems then I would take a guess at the problem being one of the following, incorrect tension on either/both the carriage/mast, the yarn not being of a suitable weight for the pattern, or down to using too many or or not enough weights.


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

susieknitter said:


> When you program any pattern into the KH970 it tells you the first needle position, here the first needle position can be altered, so make sure that you don't do this and it stays on L2.
> In case you don't know what this refers to....it is the first needle used on the left side of the pattern. Seeing that this pattern is 4st wide then the first needle position should read L2 as I have already stated. From the left 2 needle (orange side of the tape) you will have 3st in work (B position) and then one out of work (A position) Get this section right first and then make it so that you have 3 needles in work followed by one out of work right across the bed.
> Looking at the pattern on page 82, the first 3 blocks show a needle beneath them telling you that you need needles for these 3 stitches and the 4th/last block shows a O (minus needle) telling you this one is left out of work/a needle isn't needed.
> Hope that you can understand this....Sue.
> ...


Hi Suz - I just tried this one more time and it seems to be messed up on the 3 rd row. I tried a really thin yarn and then diamante, on T7. I also tried it on T5. I do believe the needles are in the right position.
Thanks,
Jeanne


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

ValT said:


> On the short length that did knit before it went wrong, did it look as if it was producing the right pattern?
> Couldn't see the needle arrangement on the RH side.
> I am leaning towards thinking that the wrong needles have been selected to be out of work.
> 
> ...


Here are more pictures and I think the problem starts on the 3rd row of the pattern.


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## ValT (Aug 15, 2012)

JeanneHolmes said:


> Here are more pictures and I think the problem starts on the 3rd row of the pattern.


I don't know for sure since I don't know the pattern, but I would have expected you to be tucking on the middle stitch (of the 3 knit stitches).
It looks like you are trying to tuck on the needles each side of the out of work needle. This would give you a problem.
Val


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## susieknitter (Jul 14, 2011)

ValT said:


> I don't know for sure since I don't know the pattern, but I would have expected you to be tucking on the middle stitch (of the 3 knit stitches).
> It looks like you are trying to tuck on the needles each side of the out of work needle. This would give you a problem.
> Val


You are right Val, it should tuck on the middle needle of the three.


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

Is the pattern incorrect or do i have something set-up wrong?


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## ValT (Aug 15, 2012)

My thoughts are that there's something wrong with the needle setup. 
Since it's a 4 needle pattern the total number of needles should be multiples of 4.
With end needle selection off.
Susieknitter: I always appreciate your input - what do you think?
Val


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## Rita in Raleigh (Aug 20, 2011)

Okay, you forced me to clear off my 970 and try to knit this stitch pattern. <G>

It is difficult. I used a lot of weight (2 big ribber weights) and my yarn was 2/12 weight acrylic, which usually knits stockinette at about a tension of 6, but I used a stitch size of 9. Tuck needs a looser tension than stockinette and more weight.

I cast on from 30L to 30R. I knit a few rows of stockinette then moved the proper needles to out of work position. (I moved each stitch not needed to the needle on the right, so I had no runs.)I set the carriage for KCII (which turns off end needle selection, as needed for tuck lace with needles out of work.)

I programmed the console as the manual said to do (see page 60). I checked the instruction book on page 60 for how to do Open Tuck Stitch Pattern (Tuck Lace). I noted that after programming the console I had to program it to get to the stop screen (a pattern row is selected but will not move up to the next row until I tell it to).

I followed all the directions, including "Remember to bring forward the end needles to D position, if they are not selected" (from bottom of page 60). I had to do this for every row I knit.

I believe that you have been doing all of this.

I carefully began knitting (including releasing the stop screen after knitting one row).

You are right, all goes fine for about 3 rows until the two needles next to the needle out of work are put into D position. Now there is a loop over 2 needles (and the empty space) all across the needlebed. This is how the program is supposed to work. Knit slowly, using lots of weight and make sure these big loops do not flip up over the gatepegs and cause the fabric to hang up. Those big loops should be knit in on the next row, because needles in D position will knit (those in B position just gather loops).

So, this pattern will work when you knit carefully, slowly, and watch the big loops so they stay in the hooks of the needles in D position.

Good luck on your great adventure. I am sure you can do it if you knit slowly and watch carefully!


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## ValT (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks for doing this Rita - it's just as I thought ... there's a problem when you try to knit two tucked needles either side of an out of work needle. But you seem to have worked through this.
Please tell me, did you have end needle selection off?
Val


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## Rita in Raleigh (Aug 20, 2011)

I took some photos showing the big loops and then showing after I knit the next row which knitted in the loops.


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## Rita in Raleigh (Aug 20, 2011)

Yes, Val. To do tuck lace you must have the end needle selection off. This is done through using the KCII setting.

We do not want the carriage to select the end needle because each time the carriage comes to a needle out of work, it thinks (haha) that that is the end needle and so should be selected to knit!

Because the end needle is not selected we must manually pull the end needle to D or even E so that it will knit off each row.



ValT said:


> Thanks for doing this Rita - it's just as I thought ... there's a problem when you try to knit two tucked needles either side of an out of work needle. But you seem to have worked through this.
> Please tell me, did you have end needle selection off?
> Val


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

Thank you for sticking to it with me. I'll will try this again and go much slower this time. I will try a looser tension and go really slow. Keep you posted, and I am in awe of you pros.
Jeanne


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## ValT (Aug 15, 2012)

Rita in Raleigh said:


> Yes, Val. To do tuck lace you must have the end needle selection off. This is done through using the KCII setting.
> 
> We do not want the carriage to select the end needle because each time the carriage comes to a needle out of work, it thinks (haha) that that is the end needle and so should be selected to knit!
> 
> Because the end needle is not selected we must manually pull the end needle to D or even E so that it will knit off each row.


Rita, do you not change end needle selection by manually changing the position of those little orange triangular plates (Brother) on the underside of the carriage? Or .. does the program on the console make this unnecessary?

Looks like a very interesting pattern - I've added it to my 'to do' list. Will try it on both my Silver Reed bulky and mid-gauge - I thought the pattern would be more show all the detail if done on a bigger gauge machine.

Val


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## Rita in Raleigh (Aug 20, 2011)

Hi Val,
The KCII setting on the 970 and other "newer" brother main carriages is the setting for single motif (and is labeled SM on some of the carriages such as the 260). It automatically turns off the end needle selection.

Lace carriages have orange triangular plates on the underside to turn on or off the end needle selection.

I checked with an older brother machine (891) and find that if the carriage does not have KCII then you must turn the carriage over and move the orange/pink end needle selection cams. These machines have just a KC (not a KC and a KCII) on their change knobs. But they all will work as far as I know.

So it is not a program on the console, but the setting of the setting knob.



ValT said:


> Rita, do you not change end needle selection by manually changing the position of those little orange triangular plates (Brother) on the underside of the carriage? Or .. does the program on the console make this unnecessary?


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## 30Knitter (Apr 9, 2012)

Check your latches, sometimes they stick. If you push on the latch when it opens and it sticks, then you should change the needle. From the picture you displayed, It looks as if you have enough weights. You may want to put your weaving brushes on. You should be able to do 6 rows before having to knit. So, 3 rows should not be giving any problem.


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

This pattern has done me in. I appreciate all the suggestions and tips but it is just not working for me. At my age (77) I don't have enough time left to play with this one pattern when there are so many other patterns that are just as pretty. I gave it my best, but I need to move on and I'm okay with that. Thanks especially to Rita and Val, and all the others who tried to help. You are the best.
Jeanne


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## jaysclark (Jan 26, 2013)

JeanneHolmes said:


> This pattern has done me in. I appreciate all the suggestions and tips but it is just not working for me. At my age (77) I don't have enough time left to play with this one pattern when there are so many other patterns that are just as pretty. I gave it my best, but I need to move on and I'm okay with that. Thanks especially to Rita and Val, and all the others who tried to help. You are the best.
> Jeanne


Are using stitch world 3? There is one tuck lace pattern I cannot get to work and wonder whether the set up diagram is wrong!?


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## Rita in Raleigh (Aug 20, 2011)

That is the way to think, Jeanne. If you have tried your best, and I can see that you have, then just go on to another design and have fun. 

I am glad to have been part of those who tried to help you. Please be sure to post and brag of your accomplishments in the future. 

PS. We're all going to live and knit to be 120, aren't we?


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## JeanneHolmes (May 4, 2011)

Rita in Raleigh said:


> That is the way to think, Jeanne. If you have tried your best, and I can see that you have, then just go on to another design and have fun.
> 
> I am glad to have been part of those who tried to help you. Please be sure to post and brag of your accomplishments in the future.
> 
> PS. We're all going to live and knit to be 120, aren't we?


I'm counting on it. I enjoyed chatting with you.
Jeanne

:-D :-D :-D :-D


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