# Fish Lips Kiss Heel - easy enough for beginners?



## rittek (Dec 22, 2014)

I am a pretty new knitter and don't have much experience reading patterns but want to try the fish lips kiss heel. Is this something a beginner could understand? I have just knit my first pair of toe-up, two at a time socks and would like to try a different heel.


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## Sandy4cats (May 8, 2014)

Thanks for asking, rittek! I would like to know the answer to that question; although, you are one pair of socks ahead of me. I haven't knitted any yet.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

rittek said:


> I am a pretty new knitter and don't have much experience reading patterns but want to try the fish lips kiss heel. Is this something a beginner could understand? I have just knit my first pair of toe-up, two at a time socks and would like to try a different heel.


Yes See my other post.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Sandy4cats said:


> Thanks for asking, rittek! I would like to know the answer to that question; although, you are one pair of socks ahead of me. I haven't knitted any yet.


Yes. The nice thing about the FLKH are the pictures after the directions for making the heel. IMHO you can skip over the first 8 pages if you are making socks for yourself. Page 9 starts the directions. And past the directions are photographs of the TSK and TSP stitches. So easy to see. You will whip that heel out in no time


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## mopgenorth (Nov 20, 2011)

http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/fish-lips-kiss-heel

The best $1 investment I ever made (at least until I win the lottery!) Her method of short rows is not just for socks. I use it any time I am knitting short rows.

Sock Heels Perfected!!! An innovative, new method for knitting perfectly-fitting, beautiful, simple heels. And the eBook is only $1.00!!! Come join the Sox Therapy group to see photos and join a fishy kissy knit-along.

Whats to love about the Fish Lips Kiss Heel? EVERYTHING!

Knit cuff-down or toe-up with one simple design
No wraps
No gaps!!!
No maths
No flaps or gussets, so no picking up stitches, not even pick up a mystery stitch somewhere in the corner, and remember to knit it away on the next round
No counting!!!
Heels will now be the easiest part of the sock, so you can knit them at knit night or while watching TV without ever getting lost or messing up
Your stitch count stays the same, easy peasy
Its blindingly obvious where you make your short-row turns, so no guessing where the gaps arebecause there are no gaps!

AND BEST FOR LAST Your socks will fit the recipient foot perfectly every time, even if you dont have the foot available to try on as you knit!!! The first half of the eBook describes how to make a precision cardboard foot pattern, complete with exact markings for various parts of sock construction. Make and collect cardboard feet for everyone you knit socks for, and youll never need the actual foot again!

Okay, one more, because this is just so cool VIDEO LINKS to learn the best short-row turning stitches on the planet! You will be using this method for all your short-row projects, not just FLK Heels, because these stitches simply dissolve and disappear into your knitting without ever leaving a hole or misshapen stitch. Yay that!


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## Sue721 (Feb 17, 2012)

I knit my 2nd pair of toe up socks on 1 circular needle with the FLKH. Read and follow the written directions and watch the videos. You can do it!


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## jmcret05 (Oct 24, 2011)

The instructions for FLK heel are on Ravelry by Sox Therapist. Only $1.00 and well worth it.
http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/fish-lips-kiss-heel

I would suggest that you read the Ravelry page and look at the links provided so that you know a little about the process. It is very well laid out and lots of great information.


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## Cru (May 18, 2013)

Have never read or made FLK heals. What I make is K1, Sl1 on the front and P on the back, making a cushiony durable heal. Could someone who has done both please let me know how they compare for wear?


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## ncowie (Aug 27, 2013)

rittek said:


> I am a pretty new knitter and don't have much experience reading patterns but want to try the fish lips kiss heel. Is this something a beginner could understand? I have just knit my first pair of toe-up, two at a time socks and would like to try a different heel.


This is the next heel I'm going to try so I bought the instructions. They are VERY detailed and comprehensive. Very economical for the price of one dollar.
I think this heel seems like it would be easier than others. The only other heel I've tried is the afterthought heel and I though it was pretty easy considering it was my first socks.


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## rosebud527 (Jun 20, 2014)

I found it very confusing-14 pages?


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

rosebud527 said:


> I found it very confusing-14 pages?


Just skip to page 9 for the instructions. You don't need a temp plate if you are making for yourself or another that you can try them on. And the photos right after the instructions are very good. Don't get bogged down.


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## mamalava (Apr 26, 2014)

I've only been knitting for less than a year. I am currently making a pair of bulky socks using FLK for the toe and heel. Easy and no holes! Love it!


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## Bee-g (Dec 9, 2014)

I dont know any other heel as I downloaded the FLK heel pattern first. Be sure to use markers and tug where she says to tug.
I practice on worsted yarn and did a test peice that I did oooh about 7 or 8 heels on just to learn it so I would not have to refure to the paper over and over . took a few to get the counts right but so worth the effort.


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## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

Cru said:


> Have never read or made FLK heals. What I make is K1, Sl1 on the front and P on the back, making a cushiony durable heal. Could someone who has done both please let me know how they compare for wear?


I would like to know what makes them so special. From what I can tell it's just a short row heel. I've not bought the pattern to find out, I do toe-up with gusset heels and it seems the FLK heel isn't intended for a gusset. If it's the twin stitch...I guess I do a form of that when I do short rows anyhow. None of my heels have worn out but none are more than three years old either.


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## mopgenorth (Nov 20, 2011)

GrumpyGramma said:


> I would like to know what makes them so special. From what I can tell it's just a short row heel. I've not bought the pattern to find out, I do toe-up with gusset heels and it seems the FLK heel isn't intended for a gusset. If it's the twin stitch...I guess I do a form of that when I do short rows anyhow. None of my heels have worn out but none are more than three years old either.


Then I guess you're all set! If you have a heel you like to use, no reason to change.

But, if you want to use a gusset with the heel flap for the FLKH it's easy to do and really isn't any different than any other gusset and heel flap. The FLKH incorporates a 1" heel flap already so all you need to do is add the gusset. I prefer toe up, because it eliminates having to pick up stitches to create the gusset with cuff down; I much prefer the ease and consistency with decreasing. I shared how I do it on a previous post: http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-305884-1.html

If you still want to know more about the FLKH - check out the ravelry site: http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/fish-lips-kiss-heel

All of the pros listed by the designer (which are also listed above in my earlier post) are all true. I recently knit 2AAT toe up FLK heels sitting at the municipal pool while my grandson was having his swimming lesson (see picture below). All the noise and commotion and I never lost my place - not once, not ever. It also cut the time it used to take me to knit a heel knitting in half - it goes that quickly. It fits better than any heel I have ever used and personally, I think the the FLKH looks so much better than a "regular" short row heel that uses traditional wrap in turn and way more than the afterthought heel. It is not my intention to criticize other methods - just sharing my own personal preferences and why.


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## Sandy4cats (May 8, 2014)

jmcret05 said:


> The instructions for FLK heel are on Ravelry by Sox Therapist. Only $1.00 and well worth it.
> http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/fish-lips-kiss-heel
> 
> I would suggest that you read the Ravelry page and look at the links provided so that you know a little about the process. It is very well laid out and lots of great information.


Yes, I bought and printed the instructions several months ago. I will also check on the Joy of Sox group on Ravelry. Thanks!


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## Sandy4cats (May 8, 2014)

mopgenorth said:


> I shared how I do it on a previous post: http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-305884-1.html
> 
> If you still want to know more about the FLKH - check out the ravelry site: http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/fish-lips-kiss-heel


Thanks for the links! I'm thinking my first pair should be 2 at a time toe up FLKH socks.


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## knittingnanna19 (Nov 6, 2013)

I am a sock knitter with my preferred heel but once again this heel has come up for discussion. My next pair of sox will definitely have these 
FLKH . Shame that I have promised myself to finish off some of my projects before starting any more. I get a bit anxious if I have too many projects on the go at any one time. 

So thanks to the original poster and thanks to all contributers.


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## Aunt Nay (Nov 25, 2011)

Absolutely! The FLK heel gave me the courage to complete my first pair of socks. They took me a year to complete.  :lol:


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## speni (Nov 9, 2012)

very easy, i use it for the toe too


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## rittek (Dec 22, 2014)

Thanks everyone for all the information! I will be purchasing the FLK details for sure!! I'm amazed at how many different ways there are to do heels, toes, etc.

Thanks again all!! Appreciate all the time you all take to help!


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

rittek said:


> I am a pretty new knitter and don't have much experience reading patterns but want to try the fish lips kiss heel. Is this something a beginner could understand? I have just knit my first pair of toe-up, two at a time socks and would like to try a different heel.


The quick answer is YES!!!

The FLKHeel is way easier than any other heel, IMHO. Since you have already knit toe up, two at a time..You have already done the hardest part. I'm sure you will love the FLKHeel.


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## sbel3555 (Apr 11, 2011)

Yes, If you already made one pair of sock, you have the idea of how the heel turn is done. Fish Lip Kiss Heel is sort of a "shorthand" version. Go for it.


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## louisa1014 (Jan 24, 2015)

I agree completely with mopgenorth...it's the easiest and best fitting heel I've tried...been knitting for 50+ years..try it...you'll like it!


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

Cru said:


> Have never read or made FLK heals. What I make is K1, Sl1 on the front and P on the back, making a cushiony durable heal. Could someone who has done both please let me know how they compare for wear?


You can do your K1, S1, on any portion of the FLK Heel if you wish. I have often worked the Eye of Partridge stitch on the center 10 to 14 stitches...as I start the second portion of the heel... I start the center stitches (non twin stitches) and as I begin adding additional stitches, I incorporate them into the EOP portion... leaving the last 4 or so stitches on each side of heel in plain stockinette. Sometimes only do EOP on only the center non-twin stitched portion.


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## sritchie171 (Jul 3, 2013)

Google "waffle stitch toe up sock" for the easiest heel ever!


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## asty (Nov 1, 2014)

rittek said:


> I am a pretty new knitter and don't have much experience reading patterns but want to try the fish lips kiss heel. Is this something a beginner could understand? I have just knit my first pair of toe-up, two at a time socks and would like to try a different heel.


I did try the FLKH and it was a success. The $1.00 instructions are intimidating because they're so long; you have to read them completely so you can understand how simple this technique is. Good luck or I should say happy reading
:wink:


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## asty (Nov 1, 2014)

asty said:


> I did try the FLKH and it was a success. The $1.00 instructions are intimidating because they're so long; you have to read them completely so you can understand how simple this technique is. Good luck or I should say happy reading
> :wink:


My next attempt is the Tomato Heel, I don't think this is the correct name of it.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

rosebud527 said:


> I found it very confusing-14 pages?


Yes...lots of pages...but the directions for the heel start on page 9 ... the previous pages are all about how to build and use a template to knit perfectly fitting socks for anyone (as long as you can get hold of the person you want to knit for to make the template) You can always use any other pattern for the sock...and insert the Fish Lips Kiss Heel pattern for only the heel. 
I seldom even read a pattern for socks. I learned how to knit socks to fit from the Lifestyle Toe Up Sock Pattern...and continue to use what I learned for every single pair of socks I knit (more than 150 pairs to date). When I reach the heel area...I simply begin to knit the FLKHeel.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

sritchie171 said:


> Google "waffle stitch toe up sock" for the easiest heel ever!


If you have never tried the Fish Lips Kiss Heel...you do not know what is the easiest heel ever.


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## ilmacheryl (Feb 3, 2013)

mopgenorth said:


> http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/fish-lips-kiss-heel
> 
> The best $1 investment I ever made (at least until I win the lottery!) Her method of short rows is not just for socks. I use it any time I am knitting short rows.
> 
> ...


I agree 100% with everything she said! I haven't used the video because her photos are so good. Best $1.00 I ever spent!


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## ilmacheryl (Feb 3, 2013)

WindingRoad said:


> Just skip to page 9 for the instructions. You don't need a temp plate if you are making for yourself or another that you can try them on. And the photos right after the instructions are very good. Don't get bogged down.


I LOVE the template! When I use the ones I've made, the socks fit every time.


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## gpatters71 (Aug 7, 2014)

rittek said:


> I am a pretty new knitter and don't have much experience reading patterns but want to try the fish lips kiss heel. Is this something a beginner could understand? I have just knit my first pair of toe-up, two at a time socks and would like to try a different heel.


Hi, I used the FLK heel on my second pair without much problem.

# I did make a "sample" first. I used a larger yarn, started knitting 1" above the heel, and bound off a bit after the heel was finished. It helped me learn the process, and I now have a reference sample when I do it again.

Glo


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## marg 123 (Oct 17, 2012)

Unfortunately I am unable to purchase these instructions as they are not available from Ravelry within EU.


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## Fluteplayer7 (Jul 29, 2011)

Rittek -- I've been knitting socks for a couple of years. I finally tried this method of heel-making a month ago and love it. In traditional gusset heels and other short row methods, you add quite a number of stitches to the heel as you make the heel cup. Adding all those stitches made the heel too big for me and my daughter. The fish lips heel does not add stitches at the heel. My daughter and I both got heels that fit better with this method. 


Making the short is a little confusing. If you search SoxTherapist on Youtube, you will find two videos on how to do the short row. One is for knit and one is for purl. They are invaluable. I watched them over and over as I was making the heel. 

I agree with everyone else that you do not have to use her sock making method. I don't use a pattern at all except for the heel and the decorative leg.


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## yarndriver (Aug 24, 2014)

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## rittek (Dec 22, 2014)

Fluteplayer7 said:


> Rittek -- I've been knitting socks for a couple of years. I finally tried this method of heel-making a month ago and love it. In traditional gusset heels and other short row methods, you add quite a number of stitches to the heel as you make the heel cup. Adding all those stitches made the heel too big for me and my daughter. The fish lips heel does not add stitches at the heel. My daughter and I both got heels that fit better with this method.
> 
> Making the short is a little confusing. If you search SoxTherapist on Youtube, you will find two videos on how to do the short row. One is for knit and one is for purl. They are invaluable. I watched them over and over as I was making the heel.
> 
> I agree with everyone else that you do not have to use her sock making method. I don't use a pattern at all except for the heel and the decorative leg.


Thank you!! I am definitely going to purchase it!


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Sandy4cats said:


> Thanks for the links! I'm thinking my first pair should be 2 at a time toe up FLKH socks.


I'm thinking they should be too. LOL To me it's very hard to pick up stitches on #0 or #1 needles I think that's why I like FLKH. I don't even like picking up stitches down the fronts of sweaters for buttonhole and placket. I never can get it right either it wants to pucker or it's got too many stitches. I've picked up around a neck but usually they say the exact # of stitches to pick up not this every 3rd stitch.

Now with flap and gusset because I make my socks very dense (72 stitches in all) I can't figure out the number of stitches I need to pick up

There is no counting with FLKH. That's another plus. I love the classic look of flap and gusset but I don't like doing it.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

marg 123 said:


> Unfortunately I am unable to purchase these instructions as they are not available from Ravelry within EU.


I didn't know that.


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## mamalava (Apr 26, 2014)

marg 123 said:


> Unfortunately I am unable to purchase these instructions as they are not available from Ravelry within EU.


If you go to the sox therapist group page on Ravelry, there is a topic for those in the EU. You should be able to get it thru there.


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## yarndriver (Aug 24, 2014)

Marg123, I'll be in London in Sept. PM me for details. I use the FLK heel all the time now.


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## Chemchic (Dec 16, 2012)

you've already done the hard learning..a sock! good for you!

I think this heel is easy to understand and there is a video to aid in the stitch:





Also there has been prior talk about this heel in the past on KP, but I saved this one:
http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-202052-1.html
you could do a further search on KP for this topic.


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## cah (Oct 2, 2014)

I have yet to read through all 16 pages of this pattern so I don't really know if it's any easier than what I'm already doing. Maybe some day!


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## Woodsywife (Mar 9, 2014)

rosebud527 said:


> I found it very confusing-14 pages?


I agree! I printed it out and thought how intimidating it was. I have not tried it yet nor given it a second thought. But since a post above says you can skip some pages I might look again. It will be awhile before I start more socks. I have a bunch of baby items to do.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Woodsywife said:


> I agree! I printed it out and thought how intimidating it was. I have not tried it yet nor given it a second thought. But since a post above says you can skip some pages I might look again. It will be awhile before I start more socks. I have a bunch of baby items to do.


Yeah just jump to page 9 if you are making for yourself or someone who can try them on. I work to within 2" of the back of my heel and snug up to the hinge on the top of my foot then I turn.


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## ilmacheryl (Feb 3, 2013)

mamalava said:


> If you go to the sox therapist group page on Ravelry, there is a topic for those in the EU. You should be able to get it thru there.


She now also has an anatomically correct toe for those who need it. I don't think I'll bother with it. She posted that in her Ravelry group, Sox Therapy, awhile back.


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## bhooie (Jan 4, 2015)

I've only knitted a couple of pairs of socks with the heel flap, etc. I purchased the fish lips heel directions. Seems like WAY too many directions. I'm a newbee. Is there an easy, simple go-to sock pattern that uses the fish lips heel pattern? Thanks.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

bhooie said:


> I've only knitted a couple of pairs of socks with the heel flap, etc. I purchased the fish lips heel directions. Seems like WAY too many directions. I'm a newbee. Is there an easy, simple go-to sock pattern that uses the fish lips heel pattern? Thanks.


Again skip right to page 9 for the directions and then on to the next few pages for photos. Work you sock until you are 2" from the back of your heel and snug up to the hinge of your foot on the top. Then start you heel.

To heck with a pattern. Make you toe, st st your foot and then your heel. Then the leg. Once you get the construction of a sock you can make any fancy pattern you want.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

marg 123 said:


> Unfortunately I am unable to purchase these instructions as they are not available from Ravelry within EU.


Try contacting Patty Joy, the designer. She might have a solutions for you. Actually if you check the Ravelry page for FLKHeel ....about halfway down the page is a comment telling you to go to this link:
http://www.ravelry.com/discuss/sox-therapy/3103908/1-25


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## marg 123 (Oct 17, 2012)

Thank you.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

JTM said:


> Try contacting Patty Joy, the designer. She might have a solutions for you. Actually if you check the Ravelry page for FLKHeel ....about halfway down the page is a comment telling you to go to this link:
> http://www.ravelry.com/discuss/sox-therapy/3103908/1-25


I see it's all the VAT stuff. I didn't know it would be such a hassle for everyone. Geeeezzzz. Gonna cut into commerce how will that help with taxes?


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## slbtex (May 15, 2013)

I think they're the easiest socks I've ever done (altho' I haven't done a lot). They're very easy to fit and, if you've already done toe up and two at a time, you shouldn't have any problems.

Good luck!


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## slbtex (May 15, 2013)

I think they're the easiest socks I've ever done (altho' I haven't done a lot). They're very easy to fit and, if you've already done toe up and two at a time, you shouldn't have any problems.

Good luck!


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## bethn (Dec 26, 2012)

The main reason I haven't knitted this one (in almost a dozen pairs of socks that are well loved) is a comment I came across on a Ravelry pattern that a knitter had a lot of trouble with short row heels as they didn't fit her foot due to her very high instep. And that's just what I've got -- a very high instep. Perhaps there are ways to fit this in FLK/Sweet Tomato heels?


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## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

mopgenorth said:


> Then I guess you're all set! If you have a heel you like to use, no reason to change.
> 
> But, if you want to use a gusset with the heel flap for the FLKH it's easy to do and really isn't any different than any other gusset and heel flap. The FLKH incorporates a 1" heel flap already so all you need to do is add the gusset. I prefer toe up, because it eliminates having to pick up stitches to create the gusset with cuff down; I much prefer the ease and consistency with decreasing. I shared how I do it on a previous post: http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-305884-1.html


Thanks! I've wondered about the near religious fervor of FLK heel devotees, have actually read about some of the problems people were having in the Ravelry forum, and have thus far refused to spend a dollar for enlightenment. I'm going to check your links but meanwhile I wanted to point out that top down, gusseted socks can be done without a true heel flap. I did a pair and basically worked the faux heel flap in Liat Gat's Toe Up Heel Flap Socks pattern in reverse, working the heel stitch on the "flap" stitches and increasing until the turn then decreasing them out to form the triangular gusset on the foot. Piece of cake with chocolate frosting.

When I do my short rows I do a knit or purl below, place it on the needle beside the stitch that would have been wrapped so it's twisted then knit backwards to the next turn and repeat the process. When it's time to pick up the stitches I just untwist the increased stitch and work them together. This method seems to minimize the stress on the short rows more than any other method I've used, is very easy, and after a few turns mindless. I'm working on exactly what is my preferred way of working the two stitches together for appearance sake.


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## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

sritchie171 said:


> Google "waffle stitch toe up sock" for the easiest heel ever!


Cute socks. IMHO the absolutely easiest pattern is to learn to do socks without a pattern. If I should care to I can incorporate a lace or other pattern stitches but oddly enough I and those I make socks for seem to prefer plain stockinette with a ribbed top. Go figure.


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## jangmb (Oct 27, 2011)

I purchased this pattern at least a year ago and have not made the socks yet. LOL Guess I better get with it After reading some of the responses, I am eager to use this method.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

bethn said:


> The main reason I haven't knitted this one (in almost a dozen pairs of socks that are well loved) is a comment I came across on a Ravelry pattern that a knitter had a lot of trouble with short row heels as they didn't fit her foot due to her very high instep. And that's just what I've got -- a very high instep. Perhaps there are ways to fit this in FLK/Sweet Tomato heels?


Then they did not follow the instructions. You start to turn your heel when you are 2" from the back of your heel ( toe up technique) AND the top of your sock is snug up to the hinge of your ankle on the top of your foot. I'd be curious if it's only one group who's having trouble. i.e. the toe up group or the cuff down group and how they are measuring for the turn itself.


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## ilmacheryl (Feb 3, 2013)

WindingRoad said:


> Then they did not follow the instructions. You start to turn your heel when you are 2" from the back of your heel ( toe up technique) AND the top of your sock is snug up to the hinge of your ankle on the top of your foot. I'd be curious if it's only one group who's having trouble. i.e. the toe up group or the cuff down group and how they are measuring for the turn itself.


I have done them both ways with no problems. I prefer cuff down. But if I had trouble fitting them over my instep, I'd add a few more stitches before I started the heel.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

ilmacheryl said:


> I have done them both ways with no problems. I prefer cuff down. But if I had trouble fitting them over my instep, I'd add a few more stitches before I started the heel.


Maybe doing them toe up would solve the problem. IDK


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

GrumpyGramma said:


> Thanks! I've wondered about the near religious fervor of FLK heel devotees, have actually read about some of the problems people were having in the Ravelry forum, and have thus far refused to spend a dollar for enlightenment. I'm going to check your links but meanwhile I wanted to point out that top down, gusseted socks can be done without a true heel flap. I did a pair and basically worked the faux heel flap in Liat Gat's Toe Up Heel Flap Socks pattern in reverse, working the heel stitch on the "flap" stitches and increasing until the turn then decreasing them out to form the triangular gusset on the foot. Piece of cake with chocolate frosting.
> 
> When I do my short rows I do a knit or purl below, place it on the needle beside the stitch that would have been wrapped so it's twisted then knit backwards to the next turn and repeat the process. When it's time to pick up the stitches I just untwist the increased stitch and work them together. This method seems to minimize the stress on the short rows more than any other method I've used, is very easy, and after a few turns mindless. I'm working on exactly what is my preferred way of working the two stitches together for appearance sake.


Grumpy Grandma...you are missing the easiest short row heel ever... can be worked toe up or cuff down. That $1.00 is truly the best dollar I ever spent on anything to do with knitting. The FLKHeel is by far superior to any other heel. If you want reinforcing...easy to do with added nylon, with special stitching (as in Eye of Partridge or simple K1, s1) or any other method such as duplicate stitching.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

bhooie said:


> I've only knitted a couple of pairs of socks with the heel flap, etc. I purchased the fish lips heel directions. Seems like WAY too many directions. I'm a newbee. Is there an easy, simple go-to sock pattern that uses the fish lips heel pattern? Thanks.


Go to page 9 in the directions....that is where the directions for starting the heel itself begin. There are still pictures at the end of the booklet to "see" what is being done... there are also links to videos of how to work those twin stitches. Either way, you get a visual of how to work the heel. Not hard at all. If you have knit a pair of socks ... you already know something of the construction of socks, which will make it lots easier to follow Patty Joy's directions. 
You can use any pattern you wish...then when it is time turn to the FLKHeel pattern on page 9 and begin working the steps listed there. That truly is the easiest heel pattern around. I have worked just about every toe up heel pattern that exists....and believe me... FLKHeel is by far the easiest, and fastest. Just follow the simple steps and it will work. 
I learned sock construction from the Lifestyle Toe Up Sock pattern which boasts no swatch necessary. I have not used a pattern for sock knitting since (more than 2 years ago) and only after learning FLKHeel not even for that part. I do however, use specific stitch patterns to "dress up" otherwise plain socks. I have a few favorite pattern stitches that I like to use...only on instep and leg portions of the sock... Fish Lips Kiss Heel is always used in ever sock, every time.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

slbtex said:


> I think they're the easiest socks I've ever done (altho' I haven't done a lot). They're very easy to fit and, if you've already done toe up and two at a time, you shouldn't have any problems.
> 
> Good luck!


High insteps... directions for that are also available. Just add a mini gusset for medium high instep... very high instep ad a few more extra stitches. Make note of how many added stitches ( 1 per side every other round on instep side keeping those stitches in stockinette prior to heel with toe up socks...not sure exactly how with cuff down) make sure to do K2tog and ssk every other round while still in that 1" above heel turn in the stockinette area even when working the instep pattern outside the pattern the k2tog and ssk stitches should remain in stockinette.


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## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

JTM said:


> Grumpy Grandma...you are missing the easiest short row heel ever... can be worked toe up or cuff down. That $1.00 is truly the best dollar I ever spent on anything to do with knitting. The FLKHeel is by far superior to any other heel. If you want reinforcing...easy to do with added nylon, with special stitching (as in Eye of Partridge or simple K1, s1) or any other method such as duplicate stitching.


Have you used Liat Gat's Toe Up Heel Flap sock pattern or Fleegle heels? Those I can do without a pattern. To each their own, knitter's choice, etc., etc. For now I think I'll continue in my unenlightened ignorant bliss. Thanks just the same. Chalk it up to being set in my ways I suppose, and the fact that I work a very high instep which means doubling the heel stitches on most socks I knit. That's the fit everyone I knit for seems to like best. When it comes to socks these days, if I need a pattern I don't like them. Stubborn old bat, aren't I?


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## burgher (Feb 9, 2013)

Cru said:


> Have never read or made FLK heals. What I make is K1, Sl1 on the front and P on the back, making a cushiony durable heal. Could someone who has done both please let me know how they compare for wear?


 I have knit lots of socks top down with heel flaps.I used to think that the heel flap would make heels wear longer but unless your shoes rub on the back of your heel they don't wear longer. Most times when you get a hole in your heel it is at the bottom so the heel flap doesn't really help. I have the FLK that I purchased from Ravelry but haven't done them yet. My next pair will be FLK tho, toe up..


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## misszzzzz (Feb 23, 2012)

shall give it a try.


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## cah (Oct 2, 2014)

GrumpyGramma said:


> Have you used Liat Gat's Toe Up Heel Flap sock pattern or Fleegle heels? Those I can do without a pattern. To each their own, knitter's choice, etc., etc. For now I think I'll continue in my unenlightened ignorant bliss. Thanks just the same. Chalk it up to being set in my ways I suppose, and the fact that I work a very high instep which means doubling the heel stitches on most socks I knit. That's the fit everyone I knit for seems to like best. When it comes to socks these days, if I need a pattern I don't like them. Stubborn old bat, aren't I?


I have the pattern but never used it. The socks I make now fit me so I wasn't looking for a change. The heel flap method I use isn't hard, nor is it better or worse. I just now opened the pattern and jumped to page 9, but it still wasn't clear. There's too much information to wade through. If anybody ever makes a condensed version of this pattern, I'd be interested, but not until I already have a ton of socks to wear. I then watched the two videos by Sox Therapist and now realize I never needed the pattern to make those heels. What you need the pattern for is the template instructions.

I'm glad I learned to knit before I hit the internets. That way I was able to find what I liked and make my own choices instead of having someone else tell my what I should like.


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## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

cah said:


> I have the pattern but never used it. The socks I make now fit me so I wasn't looking for a change. The heel flap method I use isn't hard, nor is it better or worse. I just now opened the pattern and jumped to page 9, but it still wasn't clear. There's too much information to wade through. If anybody ever makes a condensed version of this pattern, I'd be interested, but not until I already have a ton of socks to wear. I then watched the two videos by Sox Therapist and now realize I never needed the pattern to make those heels. What you need the pattern for is the template instructions.
> 
> I'm glad I learned to knit before I hit the internets. That way I was able to find what I liked and make my own choices instead of having someone else tell my what I should like.


I learned to knit thanks to the internet. I still don't feel like I need to go with every fad and I'm sure this is a fad. Right now I'm making second soles for a pair of slippers. No pattern, really, I adapted a DROPS pattern to fit my daughter the way she wants and now I can make the sole from the bottom and next time I'll skip the Kitchener closure and do a better slipper. I've watched videos for the FLK and saw nothing I needed to get a mega-download for. I've read about people using the pattern and admittedly it's been a while but the questions I saw people asking on Ravelry made even less inclined to spend a buck to see what it's all about. What I really want to know is what makes people so religiously excited and evangelistic about them. Inquiring minds...things that make me go hmmmmmmmmm...


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

GrumpyGramma said:


> Have you used Liat Gat's Toe Up Heel Flap sock pattern or Fleegle heels? .....


Yes, I have used both several times...enough time to have learned them by heart too. Since learning FLKHeel...I have no need to remember them at all.

When knitting a sock for someone with high instep... I add stitches, 1 each side,(toe up) to the instep prior to the heel... usually only twice every other round (Instep only), then go into the heel. Once the heel has been turned... decrease each end of instep needle every other round within that 1" you might have read about above the actual heel turn... Then I go into any particular pattern of choice for the rest of the leg.

No comment on your last sentence.


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## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

JTM said:


> Yes, I have used both several times...enough time to have learned them by heart too. Since learning FLKHeel...I have no need to remember them at all.
> 
> When knitting a sock for someone with high instep... I add stitches, 1 each side,(toe up) to the instep prior to the heel... usually only twice every other round (Instep only), then go into the heel. Once the heel has been turned... decrease each end of instep needle every other round within that 1" you might have read about above the actual heel turn... Then I go into any particular pattern of choice for the rest of the leg.
> 
> No comment on your last sentence.


No comment? And I left myself wide open on purpose. :XD: That's OK I have slipper soles to finish and have to quit checking this thread. Daughter wants her slippers.


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## pamap (Dec 4, 2012)

I've used the FLK heel exclusively since I bought the pattern. Before that I used the heel flap and gusset, but found that those socks didn't always fit well. The first 8 pages of Patty Joy's pattern is about sock architecture and how and why to make a sock that fits well and well-fitting socks last longer because they don't rub or bunch up under your foot. Well worth the $1.00 and worth the read!


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## KnitnNat (Nov 17, 2012)

I was finally able to knit a few pairs of socks, using a number of heels.Listened to you and tried FLK heel,now I've
fitted both daughters with many pairs they love. Never have to use pattern or count.
Yes!!use FLK for toe,but to make even easier, I use Ann Kingstone version of Judy's magic cast on to begin toe.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

KnitnNat said:


> ... I use Ann Kingstone version of Judy's magic cast on to begin toe.


I have been using my own version of Judy's Magic Cast On... what is Ann Kingstone's version??? Maybe hers is better than mine.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

cah said:


> I have the pattern but never used it. The socks I make now fit me so I wasn't looking for a change. The heel flap method I use isn't hard, nor is it better or worse. I just now opened the pattern and jumped to page 9, but it still wasn't clear. There's too much information to wade through. If anybody ever makes a condensed version of this pattern, I'd be interested, but not until I already have a ton of socks to wear. I then watched the two videos by Sox Therapist and now realize I never needed the pattern to make those heels. What you need the pattern for is the template instructions.
> 
> I'm glad I learned to knit before I hit the internets. That way I was able to find what I liked and make my own choices instead of having someone else tell my what I should like.


Actually the only thing the internet videos shows you is the way to make the twin stitches... very much more to knitting the heel than just the twin stitches which is described in the pattern. Page 9, 10 and part of 11 is the condensed version. 
Pages 12 through 16 show still pictures of how to work those twin stitches...step by step... easy peasy!


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## Sandy4cats (May 8, 2014)

WindingRoad said:


> I'm thinking they should be too. LOL To me it's very hard to pick up stitches on #0 or #1 needles I think that's why I like FLKH. I don't even like picking up stitches down the fronts of sweaters for buttonhole and placket. I never can get it right either it wants to pucker or it's got too many stitches. I've picked up around a neck but usually they say the exact # of stitches to pick up not this every 3rd stitch.
> 
> Now with flap and gusset because I make my socks very dense (72 stitches in all) I can't figure out the number of stitches I need to pick up
> 
> There is no counting with FLKH. That's another plus. I love the classic look of flap and gusset but I don't like doing it.


WindingRoad, I have the same problem with picking up stitches. Thanks for the encouragement!


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## quiltwiz (Dec 17, 2011)

Have had the FLKH pattern for a while...now to the knitting. Really want to learn toe up to see if I can get a better fit...just need to kitchener stitch the toes of the pair on my needles now...then the toe up's.
Thanks for all the great info!


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## KnitnNat (Nov 17, 2012)

JTM said:


> I have been using my own version of Judy's Magic Cast On... what is Ann Kingstone's version??? Maybe hers is better than mine.


Sorry ican not send link from my nook, type in Ann Kingstone and maybe you can find it. If not i will find a way.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

GrumpyGramma said:


> No comment? And I left myself wide open on purpose. :XD: That's OK I have slipper soles to finish and have to quit checking this thread. Daughter wants her slippers.


I chose not to comment on your self deprecating comment. It is ok when I call myself a grey haired old grandma...but would rather not hear it from others... same goes for your comment.


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## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

JTM said:


> I chose not to comment on your self deprecating comment. It is ok when I call myself a grey haired old grandma...but would rather not hear it from others... same goes for your comment.


When my granddaughter was about five she looked at me and said, "Grammy, you're not old. You just look old." That was priceless. Now she's a teenager I can tell her about it and she can't believe she said it.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

KnitnNat said:


> Sorry ican not send link from my nook, type in Ann Kingstone and maybe you can find it. If not i will find a way.


Thanks...
I did search...and found it. I prefer my method for Judy's Magic Cast On.


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## KnitnNat (Nov 17, 2012)

JTM said:


> Thanks...
> I did search...and found it. I prefer my method for Judy's Magic Cast On.


What is your method? I always respect your advise, I'm 83 and love to learn from all you great knitters. You can PM me if you had rather.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

KnitnNat said:


> What is your method? I always respect your advise, I'm 83 and love to learn from all you great knitters. You can PM me if you had rather.


For my toe up socks I do use Judy's Magic Cast On...but instead of casting on an even number of stitches on each side of the circular needle. I usually keep the even side for the instep and the odd side for the sole. I doubt that it really makes a difference which side is which... Just me being a little OCD. Sometimes if I decide on a stitch pattern for the sock instep and leg that has an odd number of stitches...I work the instep as the odd side....so see it really doesn't matter all that much.
I found it easier to use that extra stitch on the odd side to hold the stitches in place when knitting the first round, rather than twisting the yarn around. I also use both working yarn and tail on as many rounds as the tail will last (and I do make sure I have an extra long tail so it will hopefully go at least the first 3 to 4 rounds) I feel that this reinforces the toe without any extra work...and I hate any extra work if I can avoid it. 
Thanks for kind comments.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

Cru said:


> Have never read or made FLK heals. What I make is K1, Sl1 on the front and P on the back, making a cushiony durable heal. Could someone who has done both please let me know how they compare for wear?


I often use the Eye of Partridge stitching on the center portion of the heel when working the Fish Lips Kiss Heel. It makes a padded heel, also gives a little "extra" for durability in a hard wear area. 
I work the EOP from the beginning of the short rows (stitch pattern is 4 rows) which works great for that are of the sock that is knit flat(the heel turn)...then continue to use EOP on heel side for !" above the finish of the heel turn...takes a bit more concentration to work in the round only on the heel side.


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## Amyjoja (Feb 16, 2016)

Once you buy it, and can you use a debit card to buy it, will it be in your library...i want to buy it but I'm worried as I seem to have bad luck down loading things.? Sorry to cut in on the post.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

Amyjoja said:


> Once you buy it, and can you use a debit card to buy it, will it be in your library...i want to buy it but I'm worried as I seem to have bad luck down loading things.? Sorry to cut in on the post.


I would suggest using PayPal (credit card is safer that way) Once FLKHeel pattern/booklet is purchased, it will always be in your library...and can be downloaded again and again should you require that. I do have a printed copy somewhere...I have no real idea where, though.
I would access the pattern on the computer...since I wanted to be able to use the links to the YouTube videos as I was learning the process. I only noticed that there were still pictures of the steps a year or so after I had been using the FLKHeel for every pair of socks I had been knitting for more than a year. (Since January 17 ...the day we left Oregon for the CA desert I have finished 16 pairs of socks ...with one pair almost ready for the heels...so you know I have knit lots of socks with this heel and have not even had to glance at the pattern since the first 3 or 4 pairs ... about 3 years ago.


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## QuinnS13 (Nov 5, 2019)




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