# hobby lobby



## diane.dee (Jan 28, 2012)

went to hobby lobby today-they have discontinued red heart yarn. who the heck discontinues that yarn?!


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

Hmmm ... my Hobby Lobby had a whole aisle of it when I was there last week. Walmart usually has a large section of it too.


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## knitnanny (Feb 28, 2012)

Haven't shopped in Hobby Lobby since they started fighting their staff over their drug plan...


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## jumbleburt (Mar 10, 2011)

knitnanny said:


> Haven't shopped in Hobby Lobby since they started fighting their staff over their drug plan...


Me too! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Judithlynn (May 13, 2012)

knitnanny said:


> Haven't shopped in Hobby Lobby since they started fighting their staff over their drug plan...


Hobby Lobby's owners are christians and only object to the abortion pill. They offer regular birth control to their employees.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

jumbleburt said:


> Me too! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Me three!!!


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## Judithlynn (May 13, 2012)

diane.dee said:


> went to hobby lobby today-they have discontinued red heart yarn. who the heck discontinues that yarn?!


They are changing to a yarn that is especially made for them. Crazy,huh?


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## Judithlynn (May 13, 2012)

Sorry, double post.


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## Raybo (Mar 12, 2011)

Judithlynn said:


> They are changing to a yarn that is especially made for them. Crazy,huh?


Wonder who makes it?


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## Sophieroz (Dec 31, 2012)

I don't know what is happening there as I don't know of a store in this area. But I have used their "I Love This Yarn" yarn and loved it.


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## MaggiePringlemeir (Jun 3, 2012)

What store discontinues carrying a basic yarn like Red Heart?

A store that carries a great percentage of their inventory in house brands aka private label goods. There are many reasons to switch to this sort of program. If they are developing the line, the store is better able to ensure quality control and to develop an exclusive palette of colors not available in other stores. These are positives for the consumer.

But the main reason is, bottom line, financial. Most stores will offer a loss leader in their sales adverts. Savy shoppers will carry the sale adverts from store A into their preferred store B and ask the cashier to match the sale price. Stores do that to keep the customer happy and coming back, but in reality, that is an expensive procedure for their 
store. If your store is selling something that is ONLY available at your store chain, it is unique. It may be made in the same factory by the same manufacturer, but with that private, it is different. Thus, it is not subject to being price matched.

It's all marketing strategy. Good question, though. Thanks for introducing the subject.


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## ChasingRainbows (May 12, 2012)

It's not a surprise. Michael's has its own brand of yarn, and so does Joann's.


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## Meanjean (Jan 26, 2014)

I applaud Hobby Lobby for standing on their christian principles. I like the "I Love this Yarn" also.


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

Meanjean said:


> I applaud Hobby Lobby for standing on their christian principles. I like the "I Love this Yarn" also.


 :thumbup: I agree. Anytime a company is not allowed to stand on their principles, they should go out of business. Anyone who doesn't agree with their principles doesn't have to work there or shop there. As for me, I will keep shopping Hobby Lobby. :mrgreen:


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## seamer45 (Jan 18, 2011)

Companies trying to up their profit.


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## diane.dee (Jan 28, 2012)

yes, but both michaels and joann also carry red heart. it is a work horse of a yarn.


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## MissNettie (Dec 15, 2012)

peachy51 said:


> :thumbup: I agree. Anytime a company is not allowed to stand on their principles, they should go out of business. Anyone who doesn't agree with their principles doesn't have to work there or shop there. As for me, I will keep shopping Hobby Lobby. :mrgreen:


Me, too! :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

knitnanny said:


> Haven't shopped in Hobby Lobby since they started fighting their staff over their drug plan...


Same here. HB is complaining a more than the abortion pill.


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

Both Hobby Lobby and Michaels are coming out with their own label of yarn. I can't believe it either. I saw it earlier in the week. I was shocked, too. Joann's still has it. There was even a new color of variegated that I had not seen before: woodsey. It's Red Heart. Just I'll have to resort to ordering online. It is not as cheap as getting it at the store. I usually use my coupons.


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## juniemae (Sep 26, 2011)

Amen for Hobby Lobby! More companies need to stand up against "Big Brother"!


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## dora mac (Nov 15, 2011)

jumbleburt said:


> Me too! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Count me as well


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## dora mac (Nov 15, 2011)

Colorado knits said:


> Same here. HB is complaining a more than the abortion pill.


Yes.


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## dora mac (Nov 15, 2011)

I don't shop at Hobby Lobby.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

skyequeen said:


> I don't shop at Hobby Lobby.


I used to go to HB just to buy Snowflake wool yarn. But now I don't go there.


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## LAURA C (Jan 21, 2013)

Judithlynn said:


> They are changing to a yarn that is especially made for them. Crazy,huh?


Michael's did that also. Their yarn is like knitting with poorly recycled plastic bags. It made a mad dash for the garbage bag. It was so bad I couldn't bring myself to send it to the nursing home.


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## azmoonbugs (Dec 2, 2011)

knitnanny said:


> Haven't shopped in Hobby Lobby since they started fighting their staff over their drug plan...


I will not shop there until they stop that nonsense.


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## nrskrachet (Jun 7, 2013)

peachy51 said:


> :thumbup: I agree. Anytime a company is not allowed to stand on their principles, they should go out of business. Anyone who doesn't agree with their principles doesn't have to work there or shop there. As for me, I will keep shopping Hobby Lobby. :mrgreen:


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

The yarn is Tunisian, and packaged in the U.S.A. I think I remember that correctly. Red Heart is American made.


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## Memum (Jan 14, 2014)

knitnanny said:


> Haven't shopped in Hobby Lobby since they started fighting their staff over their drug plan...


I'm with you. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## bonniephillips (Feb 15, 2014)

me four


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## dylansnana (Feb 11, 2011)

like Hobby Lobby and their "I love this Yarn". I find it smooth and easy to work with. there is a great variety in the colors. I still buy red Heart for afghans, but find that over the years the yarn is not s nice as it used to be. Maybe they are saving money somewhere. I tend to shop more for Hobby Lobby yarn if doing afghans.


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## kimdegrazia (Jan 9, 2014)

Judithlynn said:


> Hobby Lobby's owners are christians and only object to the abortion pill. They offer regular birth control to their employees.


The morning after pill is now available over the counter. There should no longer be any arguing over health benefits.


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## Ann745 (Oct 29, 2012)

peachy51 said:


> :thumbup: I agree. Anytime a company is not allowed to stand on their principles, they should go out of business. Anyone who doesn't agree with their principles doesn't have to work there or shop there. As for me, I will keep shopping Hobby Lobby. :mrgreen:


Me too.


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## blavell (Mar 18, 2011)

Red Heart "Love" is really nice; soft & easy to work with.


dylansnana said:


> like Hobby Lobby and their "I love this Yarn". I find it smooth and easy to work with. there is a great variety in the colors. I still buy red Heart for afghans, but find that over the years the yarn is not s nice as it used to be. Maybe they are saving money somewhere. I tend to shop more for Hobby Lobby yarn if doing afghans.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

knitnanny said:


> Haven't shopped in Hobby Lobby since they started fighting their staff over their drug plan...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## whitetail (Feb 19, 2011)

Love Hobby Lobby and their yarn. I admire that they stand up for their rights, agree, nobody is making the people work there, other places to go if they don't like the policy.


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## whitetail (Feb 19, 2011)

Love Hobby Lobby and their yarn. I admire that they stand up for their rights, agree, nobody is making the people work there, other places to go if they don't like the policy.


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## Mertsp (Jun 5, 2012)

I love Hobby Lobby, especially their Christian music. I sometimes buy more than I should because the music puts me in a good mood.


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## Nittinnut (Jan 10, 2014)

knitnanny said:


> Haven't shopped in Hobby Lobby since they started fighting their staff over their drug plan...


Ditto!


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## blavell (Mar 18, 2011)

I've only been to Hobby Lobby once & didn't think it was anything special. I did buy some of their cotton as it was on sale. I love the colors but, so far, I haven't liked knitting with it - however, I've only just started a project. I did find all of their yarn (both their brand & other brands) to be about $1.00 a skein more than the same brands at Michael's & JoAnn's.


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## azmoonbugs (Dec 2, 2011)

kimdegrazia said:


> The morning after pill is now available over the counter. There should no longer be any arguing over health benefits.


You don't even understand what is going on here. HL does not want to have their employees to have the access to free contraceptives that the AHA mandates.

If they(and others get their way) then what will be next. " I don't believe in CAT scans, MRI scams etc. because of my religious beliefs, so I will not pay to have them in my health care"?


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## cartor (Apr 24, 2013)

I was in Hobby Lobby looking for yarn a couple months ago and even though they still had the swatches for other brands hanging on the shelves, they told me they sold out all the other yarns and would only Be carrying their own brand now.


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## Mercury (Apr 12, 2012)

I agree wholeheartedly that Hobby Lobby is standing by their principles and for this I give them credit. I love their yarn.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Meanjean said:


> I applaud Hobby Lobby for standing on their christian principles. I like the "I Love this Yarn" also.


I agree!!! And honestly Hobby Lobby's "I Love This Yarn" is so much nicer than Red Heart, I can see why they would discontinue the Red Heart! I Love This Yarn is so much softer! If you're going to Hobby Lobby, I don't know why you would choose Red Heart over I Love This Yarn. The price is about the same. Who wouldn't choose soft over scratchy?


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## whitetail (Feb 19, 2011)

Big difference between having a CAT Scan MRI and ending a life.


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## Pishi (Jul 15, 2013)

I have only been to Hobby Lobby twice and was disappointed in their yarn selection. It is a huge and rather messy store where I live. I probably won't go again.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I have to say that it really bothers me that in AMERICA, the land of the FREE, people have been brainwashed into thinking that its OK for government to dictate to private citizens! When did that become acceptable?!? The 1st Amendment guarantees that the government will not interfere in the free exercise of religion! So how is it that people are so willing to give up their rights?!? Do you no longer want a FREE America? Do you realize that we are no longer FREE? Where is freedom when government is allowed to dictate? You may not agree with Hobby Lobby's decision to stay true to their faith but if you don't fight for their rights, no one will fight for yours! Wake up people! Look at what is happening to our Republic! It is becoming a dictatorship!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

For those of you who support Hobby Lobby's stand on birth control, you might want to know more about their ACTUAL practices, which are in direct conflict with their stated beliefs. A huge amount of their merchandise is purchased from China, at pennies on the dollar, allowing them to make excellent profits on Chinese labor. So it seems Hobby Lobby is fine with forced abortion and mandatory contraception when it benefits their bottom line but not for American women. I find this somewhat hypocritical. I won't shop there.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> For those of you who support Hobby Lobby's stand on birth control, you might want to know more about their ACTUAL practices, which are in direct conflict with their stated beliefs. A huge amount of their merchandise is purchased from China, at pennies on the dollar, allowing them to make excellent profits on Chinese labor. So it seems Hobby Lobby is fine with forced abortion and mandatory contraception when it benefits their bottom line but not for American women. I find this somewhat hypocritical. I won't shop there.


Almost everything for sale in this country is made in China or a country with similar human rights abuses! So, what do you buy? Hypocracy is everywhere!


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## Carolt01 (Oct 29, 2013)

knitnanny said:


> Haven't shopped in Hobby Lobby since they started fighting their staff over their drug plan...


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

You are absolutely correct, but Hobby Lobby is making a big deal out of their religious beliefs so stand out as hypocritical in the extreme.


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## Carolt01 (Oct 29, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I have to say that it really bothers me that in AMERICA, the land of the FREE, people have been brainwashed into thinking that its OK for government to dictate to private citizens! When did that become acceptable?!? The 1st Amendment guarantees that the government will not interfere in the free exercise of religion! So how is it that people are so willing to give up their rights?!? Do you no longer want a FREE America? Do you realize that we are no longer FREE? Where is freedom when government is allowed to dictate? You may not agree with Hobby Lobby's decision to stay true to their faith but if you don't fight for their rights, no one will fight for yours! Wake up people! Look at what is happening to our
> Republic! It is becoming a dictatorship!


Hobby Lobby is a for-profit business. If it were a religious institution it would be a different issue.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

I also avoid WalMart and buy as much American-made merchandise as I can afford. I support my LYS (fortunate in that I can afford to do so sometimes).


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

knitnanny said:


> Haven't shopped in Hobby Lobby since they started fighting their staff over their drug plan...


Ummm...they're not fighting with their staff. They're fighting with the government who is telling them they have to pay for (support) the murder of innocent babies. YOU may not think it is murder, but THEY DO! America used to be free and if the staff didn't like working with people with strong beliefs, they could just go work elsewhere! The 1st Amendment GUARANTEES the right to believe and worship as you wish!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Carolt01 said:


> Hobby Lobby is a for-profit business. If it were a religious institution it would be a different issue.


NO!!! The 1st Amendment is for EVERYONE not just religious institutions!!! Hold onto your rights or you will lose them!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Ok. Please detail for me the last time you were prevented from attending church, putting up a Christmas tree in your home, praying, wearing a cross, proclaiming yourself to be a Christian....?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I also avoid WalMart and buy as much American-made merchandise as I can afford. I support my LYS (fortunate in that I can afford to do so sometimes).


It isn't just Walmart that's been taken over by foreign goods. I'd be willing to bet that very little of the yarn at your LYS is made in America. Our government sold out Americans by allowing American corporations to take the jobs to other countries. All of those countries allow a sort of slave labor. That's why they did it! More money for them! Its getting harder and harder to find goods that are not made under conditions of human rights abuses.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

If they were sincere conscientious objectors they might have a case that I could support. But they are definitely not consistent in their actions. If they truly believed abortion and contraception is wrong, they would not profit on China's labor.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Ok. Please detail for me the last time you were prevented from attending church, putting up a Christmas tree in your home, praying, wearing a cross, proclaiming yourself to be a Christian....?


Being a Christian is NOT about attending church, Christmas trees and crosses!!! Its not about proclaiming anything!!! And no one gets to limit it to those things!!!


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## Munchn (Mar 3, 2013)

~~ As do I.

You have a choice of shopping there or not. Sorry but this is true.



Meanjean said:


> I applaud Hobby Lobby for standing on their christian principles. I like the "I Love this Yarn" also.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## afoster (Jun 10, 2012)

peachy51 said:


> :thumbup: I agree. Anytime a company is not allowed to stand on their principles, they should go out of business. Anyone who doesn't agree with their principles doesn't have to work there or shop there. As for me, I will keep shopping Hobby Lobby. :mrgreen:


Totally agree with both of you.


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## juniemae (Sep 26, 2011)

The music is so uplifting. I leave the store feeling better then when I came to shop. I do not like Red heart as much as I Love This Yarn. I like the feel of it better.


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## Ann745 (Oct 29, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Being a Christian is NOT about attending church, Christmas trees and crosses!!! Its not about proclaiming anything!!! And no one gets to limit it to those things!!!


There are very few busineses who allow their workers to attend church on Sunday. HL closes their doors on Sunday so their employees have the right to. Just adding...


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## vermontmary (Jan 29, 2011)

knitnanny said:


> Haven't shopped in Hobby Lobby since they started fighting their staff over their drug plan...


 :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Try not having one when it's indicated, and then we'll talk.

A woman's right to choose has been the law of the land for decades. And some people are still fighting. No one is forced to have an abortion. For those who choose to, they don't have to bleed to death or did of septicemia from non-sterile conditions. MYOB



whitetail said:


> Big difference between having a CAT Scan MRI and ending a life.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Your point of view took an odd turn out there. It's Hobby Lobby, not the government that's doing the dictating. When we allow one religious point of view to overtake all others, we limit dissent.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I have to say that it really bothers me that in AMERICA, the land of the FREE, people have been brainwashed into thinking that its OK for government to dictate to private citizens! When did that become acceptable?!? The 1st Amendment guarantees that the government will not interfere in the free exercise of religion! So how is it that people are so willing to give up their rights?!? Do you no longer want a FREE America? Do you realize that we are no longer FREE? Where is freedom when government is allowed to dictate? You may not agree with Hobby Lobby's decision to stay true to their faith but if you don't fight for their rights, no one will fight for yours! Wake up people! Look at what is happening to our Republic! It is becoming a dictatorship!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Consider this. Is all the religious freedom discourse designed to allow corporate profit?



DGreen said:


> For those of you who support Hobby Lobby's stand on birth control, you might want to know more about their ACTUAL practices, which are in direct conflict with their stated beliefs. A huge amount of their merchandise is purchased from China, at pennies on the dollar, allowing them to make excellent profits on Chinese labor. So it seems Hobby Lobby is fine with forced abortion and mandatory contraception when it benefits their bottom line but not for American women. I find this somewhat hypocritical. I won't shop there.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Try not having one when it's indicated, and then we'll talk.
> 
> A woman's right to choose has been the law of the land for decades. And some people are still fighting. No one is forced to have an abortion. For those who choose to, they don't have to bleed to death or did of septicemia from non-sterile conditions. MYOB


Ahhhh, no one is being forced to have an abortion (yet) but people who believe that abortion is murder are being forced to pay for it, which means that they are being forced to participate in it! If a woman is granted the right to choose, why is everyone else not granted the right to choose?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And Hobby Lobby is not thriving. When you bring personal issues into a business, you offend someone. I think they are on the losing side of this one. Time will tell.



Munchn said:


> ~~ As do I.
> 
> You have a choice of shopping there or not. Sorry but this is true.
> 
> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SuzyinTX (Sep 15, 2013)

The last time I was in ours, they had LOTS of Red Heart. Will be going back for a pattern search in a day or two and will check it out.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And tell us, how do you pay for abortion?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Ahhhh, no one is being forced to have an abortion (yet) but people who believe that abortion is murder are being forced to pay for it, which means that they are being forced to participate in it! If a woman is granted the right to choose, why is everyone else not granted the right to choose?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Your point of view took an odd turn out there. It's Hobby Lobby, not the government that's doing the dictating. When we allow one religious point of view to overtake all others, we limit dissent.


No! You're wrong! One religious view is allowed to stand! This is what The 1st Amendment says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free execise thereof; ...". Did you get that, "prohibiting the free exercise thereof"?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Can you be serious that "one religious view is allowed to stand"? Maybe I don't understand the statement. Please explain.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> And tell us, how do you pay for abortion?


Those who want to end the life (murder) of an unborn child, should pay for it themselves!!! Those who believe in the sanctity of life should not be forced to be accomplices to murder!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Can you be serious that "one religious view is allowed to stand"? Maybe I don't understand the statement. Please explain.


The Constitution of the United States guarantees EVERYONE free exercise of their religion!!!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Ann745 said:


> There are very few busineses who allow their workers to attend church on Sunday. HL closes their doors on Sunday so their employees have the right to. Just adding...


Then what is being limited? I really want to know - but not generalities, specifics, please.

As for "allowing their workers to attend church on Sunday"... they don't ALLOW this - they simply offer the opportunity, not the RIGHT, for their employees to do so. Good for them. Doesn't change the reality of where much of their profit comes from.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Being a Christian is NOT about attending church, Christmas trees and crosses!!! Its not about proclaiming anything!!! And no one gets to limit it to those things!!!


OK. Then specifically WHAT about being a Christian is being taken from you? How is your right to BE a Christian being limited? You can't just say that is true and take such a stand without some evidence that this is so.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The Constitution is not a religious document.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No! You're wrong! One religious view is allowed to stand! This is what The 1st Amendment says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free execise thereof; ...". Did you get that, "prohibiting the free exercise thereof"?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

This makes no sense to anyone but you.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Those who want to end the life (murder) of an unborn child, should pay for it themselves!!! Those who believe in the sanctity of life should not be forced to be accomplices to murder!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

But not the right to impose one belief on others.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The Constitution of the United States guarantees EVERYONE free exercise of their religion!!!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Ahhhh, no one is being forced to have an abortion (yet) but people who believe that abortion is murder are being forced to pay for it, which means that they are being forced to participate in it! If a woman is granted the right to choose, why is everyone else not granted the right to choose?


But you DO have the right to choose. If your choice is not to have an abortion, then you are not forced to have one. You say, (yet) --- what EVIDENCE do you have that anytime in the future any woman in America will be forced to have an abortion??? I want specific reasons, please. If you make such a claim, you should be prepared to defend it.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> The Constitution is not a religious document.


No its not but you'd better READ it!!! "Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, OR prohibiting the FREE EXERCISE THEREOF..."!!!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> But not the right to impose one belief on others.


EXACTLY!!! Those who believe that abortion is fine are trying to impose their beliefs on others who do not, by forcing them to participate by financially supporting it!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We have very different interpretations. Neither of us is likely to change our views. Our discussion is over.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No its not but you'd better READ it!!! "Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, OR prohibiting the FREE EXERCISE THEREOF..."!!!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> But you DO have the right to choose. If your choice is not to have an abortion, then you are not forced to have one. You say, (yet) --- what EVIDENCE do you have that anytime in the future any woman in America will be forced to have an abortion??? I want specific reasons, please. If you make such a claim, you should be prepared to defend it.


I don't have to provide evidence for what I believe is coming! I'm allowed to speak my opinions in a FREE America!!! The 1st Amendment also affords me that right!!!

Here it is in its entirety! "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."


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## ChrisB (Jan 29, 2013)

I like Hobby Lobby and will continue to shop there. The in- house "I Love this Yarn" is good yarn, I especially like the sport weight, it's about the only way you can get light worsted (3) for baby things in colors other than pastel. The worsted weight is good too, on par with Super Saver and they have bright orange, actually neon, a life saver for me since I live in Bengal country (orange and black) and make hats to sell. I can't find this color locally anywere else. The management has the right to follow their principles on the abortion pill question, if employees have a problem with this one issue, there are many other methods of birth control and other places to work.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> We have very different interpretations. Neither of us is likely to change our views. Our discussion is over.


There is nothing to interpret! It says what it says! Period!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

You have been paying for abortion for a long time if you pay for health insurance. Along with Viagra, by the way. Along with various forms of birth control. Along with care for diseases caused by poor life choices some might consider wrong - like penicillin for syphilis. Or care for AIDS patients. You are welcome to your religious beliefs, but you cannot violate MY rights, no matter how passionately you believe you are "right." Just as you don't want Muslim rules to apply to you, I don't want Christian rules to apply to me. Secular law, upon which this country was founded, works for everybody of every faith, or no faith, as it is fair and unbiased. Insurance depends on a wide pool of participants and to limit services for a few - based on your religious views - would be clearly discriminatory.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Good-I thought that I was the only one feeling like this. The last time I was in there (one year ago), they had hymns playing over the loud speaker.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

You don't even bother to state what you think is coming or why. This is nonsense. Discussion over.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

If you're talking to me, I fully agree.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You have been paying for abortion for a long time if you pay for health insurance. Along with Viagra, by the way. Along with various forms of birth control. Along with care for diseases caused by poor life choices some might consider wrong - like penicillin for syphilis. Or care for AIDS patients. You are welcome to your religious beliefs, but you cannot violate MY rights, no matter how passionately you believe you are "right." Just as you don't want Muslim rules to apply to you, I don't want Christian rules to apply to me. Secular law, upon which this country was founded, works for everybody of every faith, or no faith, as it is fair and unbiased. Insurance depends on a wide pool of participants and to limit services for a few - based on your religious views - would be clearly discriminatory.


No. I disagree. First of all, most insurance plans did not provide coverage for abortion. And people had the right to CHOOSE one that did not! Now that choice has been taken away. Second of all, Muslims have been given an exemption to not participate in the affordable care act because it is against their religion to buy insurance! Why no exemption for Christians?!?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

mmorris said:


> If you're talking to me, I fully agree.


Who do you agree with?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No. I disagree. First of all, most insurance plans did not provide coverage for abortion. And people had the right to CHOOSE one that did not! Now that choice has been taken away. Second of all, Muslims have been given an exemption to not participate in the affordable care act because it is against their religion to buy insurance! Why no exemption for Christians?!?


You have no idea what you are talking about. First of all, Muslims are not exempt. You evidently don't check out internet myths so do your research.

My career was in benefits administration - including contracting for health insurance -and most plans do cover abortion. Have done so for years.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/oct/24/facebook-posts/congress-criminals-scientologists-and-other-groups/

The law does not specifically state that Muslims are exempt but DOES state that religions that are opposed to buying insurance are exempt! Hence, the Muslims have been given an exemption!

If religions that don't believe in insurance are exempted then why aren't religions that don't believe in abortion exempted? The Constitution applies to ALL people not just certain groups!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't have to provide evidence for what I believe is coming! I'm allowed to speak my opinions in a FREE America!!! The 1st Amendment also affords me that right!!!
> 
> Here it is in its entirety! "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."


Yes, I have read the First Amendment.

I can't resist pointing out that if you stood on a street corner and exercised your right to free speech by proclaiming that "no one is forced to have an abortion yet" you predictably would be asked to clarify your statement. Simply repeating it over and over and saying you don't have to explain would be well within your rights. However, passersby would doubtless consider you crazy. I'm not trying to belittle you - just pointing out that simply stating your beliefs won't convince anyone of your point of view. You need to provide something more convincing than stamping your feet and insisting you are right.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/oct/24/facebook-posts/congress-criminals-scientologists-and-other-groups/
> 
> The law does not specifically state that Muslims are exempt but DOES state that religions that are opposed to buying insurance are exempt! Hence, the Muslims have been given an exemption!


Do your homework. What you are saying is a very simplistic and biased interpretation of a complicated rule. Please don't spread half-truths and inflammatory mis-information.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Yes, I have read the First Amendment.
> 
> I can't resist pointing out that if you stood on a street corner and exercised your right to free speech by proclaiming that "no one is forced to have an abortion yet" you predictably would be asked to clarify your statement. Simply repeating it over and over and saying you don't have to explain would be well within your rights. However, passersby would doubtless consider you crazy. I'm not trying to belittle you - just pointing out that simply stating your beliefs won't convince anyone of your point of view. You need to provide something more convincing than stamping your feet and insisting you are right.


I AM right about the Constitution! And note that I DID put the word "yet" in parentheses.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You cross the line.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> There is nothing to interpret! It says what it says! Period!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Do your homework. What you are saying is a very simplistic and biased interpretation of a complicated rule. Please don't spread half-truths and inflammatory mis-information.


Read the linked article. Its dealing with the internet myths. At least read the section under religion. This is neither simplistic nor biased! The bias is in the law!!! You're the one spreading half truths and inflammatory misinformation!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for your thoughtful comments.



DGreen said:


> You have been paying for abortion for a long time if you pay for health insurance. Along with Viagra, by the way. Along with various forms of birth control. Along with care for diseases caused by poor life choices some might consider wrong - like penicillin for syphilis. Or care for AIDS patients. You are welcome to your religious beliefs, but you cannot violate MY rights, no matter how passionately you believe you are "right." Just as you don't want Muslim rules to apply to you, I don't want Christian rules to apply to me. Secular law, upon which this country was founded, works for everybody of every faith, or no faith, as it is fair and unbiased. Insurance depends on a wide pool of participants and to limit services for a few - based on your religious views - would be clearly discriminatory.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I AM right about the Constitution! And note that I DID put the word "yet" in parentheses.


Which clearly implies something more. So, what is it? Simple enough question in response to a provocative statement. (Even if it is in parentheses)


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Read the linked article. Its dealing with the internet myths. At least read the section under religion. This is neither simplistic nor biased! The bias is in the law!!! You're the one spreading half truths and inflammatory misinformation!


Actually, I DID read the entire article, which calls your claim absolutely false and puts it under the heading of "Pants on Fire Lie." Did YOU read the article? Evidently not, or you would not have provided a link showing your position is false.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I suggest that we all go away and let knitterfromnb talk to herself.


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## mlsolcz (Feb 16, 2012)

Me too! Also, if I want to listen to hymns I'll go to church not shopping.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

mlsolcz said:


> Me too! Also, if I want to listen to hymns I'll go to church not shopping.


LOL


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## ChrisB (Jan 29, 2013)

Thought this site was about knitting, not politics or religion, enough already, back to the needles please


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Which clearly implies something more. So, what is it? Simple enough question in response to a provocative statement. (Even if it is in parentheses)


It clearly implies that I believe that similar programs will be coming to The United States one day. My belief is partially based upon the fact that the president chose as his science "czar", John Holdren. Holdren wrote a book in which he espoused forced abortion, forced sterilization and permission from the government to procreate as means of population control. Note I said partially! I have done research and my "beliefs" are are based upon multiple sources.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> You cross the line.


What line did I cross?


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## argmom1 (Jan 13, 2012)

peachy51 said:


> :thumbup: I agree. Anytime a company is not allowed to stand on their principles, they should go out of business. Anyone who doesn't agree with their principles doesn't have to work there or shop there. As for me, I will keep shopping Hobby Lobby. :mrgreen:


your logic escapes me- you don't think they should be allowed to stay in business because they stand for their principles ( I agree don't shop there or work there if you don't share the company's well stated and known principles) yet you shop there supporting them...thereby approving (with your money) their principles.I like to shop my local ( non chain) stores first, then businesses like Chicfila and Hobby Lobby that reflect my values if i have need, and as a last resort the other options I don't really care for (but sometimes they are the only choice due to financial or time constraints)


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## argmom1 (Jan 13, 2012)

diane.dee said:


> yes, but both michaels and joann also carry red heart. it is a work horse of a yarn.


i use it for its washability etc..but it pills terribly imho


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:
 

> Actually, I DID read the entire article, which calls your claim absolutely false and puts it under the heading of "Pants on Fire Lie." Did YOU read the article? Evidently not, or you would not have provided a link showing your position is false.


What the article says is a lie, is that it specifically names religions (ie muslims) that are exempt! It does confirm that religions that do not believe in insurance are exempt.


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## TNnanaof4 (Oct 25, 2012)

Meanjean said:


> I applaud Hobby Lobby for standing on their christian principles. I like the "I Love this Yarn" also.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It clearly implies that I believe that similar programs will be coming to The United States one day. My belief is partially based upon the fact that the president chose as his science "czar", John Holdren. Holdren wrote a book in which he espoused forced abortion, forced sterilization and permission from the government to procreate as means of population control. Note I said partially! I have done research and my "beliefs" are are based upon multiple sources.


He did not espouse those things - the work you refer to was a wide-ranging discussion of overpopulation which incidentally included those subjects. Even if he DID believe in those things (which I sincerely doubt), I fail to see how one person could sway the entire lawmaking structure of the United States including the legislative branch, executive branch (where Obama will eventually be history) and the judicial branch into legalizing something like that. I base my skepticism on belief in the constitution and the good sense of the American people.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Additionally, just for the record; if such a program was ever proposed, I would be honored to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with you in opposition. But as an extreme human rights violation - not on religious grounds.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> He did not espouse those things - the work you refer to was a wide-ranging discussion of overpopulation which incidentally included those subjects. Even if he DID believe in those things (which I sincerely doubt), I fail to see how one person could sway the entire lawmaking structure of the United States including the legislative branch, executive branch (where Obama will eventually be history) and the judicial branch into legalizing something like that. I base my skepticism on belief in the constitution and the good sense of the American people.


Incidentally??? The book was ABOUT over population! And we already have one person swaying or disregarding the branches of government! Your belief in the Constitution must cause you to realize that they are trashing it! And as far as the "good sense of the American people"? They have no sense!!! They have NO idea what is going on right under their noses!!! They're too busy watching American Idol, Dancing with the Stars or sports!!!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Additionally, just for the record; if such a program was ever proposed, I would be honored to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with you in opposition. But as an extreme human rights violation - not on religious grounds.


By the time people see it coming, it will be too late!!! The stage is being set for complete control!


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## JMBeals (Nov 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I have to say that it really bothers me that in AMERICA, the land of the FREE, people have been brainwashed into thinking that its OK for government to dictate to private citizens! When did that become acceptable?!? The 1st Amendment guarantees that the government will not interfere in the free exercise of religion! So how is it that people are so willing to give up their rights?!? Do you no longer want a FREE America? Do you realize that we are no longer FREE? Where is freedom when government is allowed to dictate? You may not agree with Hobby Lobby's decision to stay true to their faith but if you don't fight for their rights, no one will fight for yours! Wake up people! Look at what is happening to our Republic! It is becoming a dictatorship!


 :thumbup:


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No. I disagree. First of all, most insurance plans did not provide coverage for abortion. And people had the right to CHOOSE one that did not! Now that choice has been taken away. Second of all, Muslims have been given an exemption to not participate in the affordable care act because it is against their religion to buy insurance! Why no exemption for Christians?!?


If what you say is correct about the exemption, I surely hope the Muslims have deep pockets to pay for any hospitalization they might experience, or do they expect the taxpayers to pick up the tab. I SHOULD HAVE READ THE ARTICLE before posting. Please accept my apologies for falling into Knitter from Nebraska's claim.


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## JMBeals (Nov 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Those who want to end the life (murder) of an unborn child, should pay for it themselves!!! Those who believe in the sanctity of life should not be forced to be accomplices to murder!


 :thumbup:


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## reborn knitter (Apr 7, 2013)

Meanjean said:


> I applaud Hobby Lobby for standing on their christian principles. I like the "I Love this Yarn" also.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: I only wish my nearest Hobby Lobby wasn't 3 hrs away!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Bea 465 said:


> If what you say is correct about the exemption, I surely hope the Muslims have deep pockets to pay for any hospitalization they might experience, or do they expect the taxpayers to pick up the tab.


Of course the taxpayers will pick up the tab, just like we do for illegal aliens!


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## JMBeals (Nov 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> But you DO have the right to choose. If your choice is not to have an abortion, then you are not forced to have one. You say, (yet) --- what EVIDENCE do you have that anytime in the future any woman in America will be forced to have an abortion??? I want specific reasons, please. If you make such a claim, you should be prepared to defend it.


You might want to look up the history of eugenicists in this country.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

JMBeals said:


> You might want to look up the history of eugenicists in this country.


EXACTLY!!! You are awake and aware! Thank You!!!


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## JMBeals (Nov 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You have been paying for abortion for a long time if you pay for health insurance. Along with Viagra, by the way. Along with various forms of birth control. Along with care for diseases caused by poor life choices some might consider wrong - like penicillin for syphilis. Or care for AIDS patients. You are welcome to your religious beliefs, but you cannot violate MY rights, no matter how passionately you believe you are "right." Just as you don't want Muslim rules to apply to you, I don't want Christian rules to apply to me. Secular law, upon which this country was founded, works for everybody of every faith, or no faith, as it is fair and unbiased. Insurance depends on a wide pool of participants and to limit services for a few - based on your religious views - would be clearly discriminatory.


How's about MY "right" to not have you reach into my pocket to FORCE me to pay for your irresponsibility.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> By the time people see it coming, it will be too late!!! The stage is being set for complete control!


So, failing to provide a well-reasoned argument, you retreat to crazy claims. I will now bow out of this conversation and rejoin the world of reality. Best wishes to you, Knitter from Nebraska.


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## Maryhm (Oct 11, 2012)

Meanjean said:



> I applaud Hobby Lobby for standing on their christian principles. I like the "I Love this Yarn" also.


I can't agree more. I just made my first trip to a store in neighboring NJ and was impressed with their "I Love this Yarn" The store is clean and organized unlike the Michaels and AC Moore near me. I wouldn't have made the trip except to support them in their fight against forced HHS standards.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

JMBeals said:


> How's about MY "right" to not have you reach into my pocket to FORCE me to pay for your irresponsibility.


Refer to above post regarding medicine for AIDS, Viagra, etc. Your judgment about someone else's irresponsibility is immaterial as it is inherently biased. If everyone claimed an exemption as you suggest, then who would decided WHAT was covered? Unworkable and flawed.


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## bonniephillips (Feb 15, 2014)

JMHO, but when HL became a corporation or got a business license, that was from the state, and they are to abide by the laws of the state. We have a separation of church and state to allow religious freedom to worship on one's own, not in a state entity. Their stance effectively discriminates against those employees whose opinions differ. Render unto Caesar...

I don't care what the medical issue is, I do not want a politician or employer making decisions for me and my family.

but enough politics!!


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

The Employees who need the Insurance coverage. (Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear.)


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Absolutely! :thumbup:


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## Meanjean (Jan 26, 2014)

ToKnitterin Alaska

AMEN! I am a Christian and can't abide killing babies! I don't want my tax dollars to pay for that either.


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Of course the taxpayers will pick up the tab, just like we do for illegal aliens!


I guess you didn't realize I edited my reply once I read the article and found that the statements about Muslims was not true.


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## Meanjean (Jan 26, 2014)

I joined this group for Knitting and Crochet help. I live in the country and have noone else that does this. I joined this group recently and felt I wasn't so alone. Please let's not get political and just stick to what this site really if for!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Meanjean said:


> ToKnitterin Alaska
> 
> AMEN! I am a Christian and can't abide killing babies! I don't want my tax dollars to pay for that either.


Please look up the Hyde Amendment. Your tax dollars do not pay for abortion.


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## MaggiePringlemeir (Jun 3, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> EXACTLY!!! Those who believe that abortion is fine are trying to impose their beliefs on others who do not, by forcing them to participate by financially supporting it!


Hokay .. I have been reading and hoping that calmer heads would prevail before this subject becomes truly incindinary and sends the rest of us searching for our long red fire proof undies. They are itchey and sooo unattractive.

But I see one basic concept being skated right past. As mentioned before, the Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld the concept of every woman's right to choose what happens within her own body. This IS the law of the land and no one has the legal right to deny that medical procedure, not even major medical insurers. Trust me, they would LOVE to be able to deny those costs.

LEGALLY and MEDICALLY speaking, life begins at the first breath, not while in the uterus. The unborn child is a fetus, with the potential of life. Not every pregnancy ends with a healthy infant. Spontaneous natural miscarriages can take place from date of conception to date of delivery.

Yes, it does make a difference that Hobby Lobby is a corporate entity and registered as a for-profit company. That "corporation" has its own unique legal identity, just as you and I do. It must comply with the same laws that the rest of us do. That is not denying a religious practise, it is even and impartial enforcement of our laws.

If your personally deeply held religious beliefs tell you that legally sanctioned abortion is wrong, then don't you have one. Just like every other woman, you have the right to make that choice.

I do wonder, though, if your 13 year old daughter was beaten and gang raped, would you tell the ER folks not to use legal and established medical procedures to ensure that she would not become pregnant? That becomes a moral issue, but again, as the parent of that child you have the right to make an informed choice. Just as I have. Just as every adult woman in this country has. No one can take that right away from you, and you cannot take it away from anyone else. That is illegal and that is unconstitutional. The law protects you the same as it protects others. For ANY legal entity to attempt to deny that right of choice is illegal and unconstitutional.

However, let's get real, as we used to say. The Powers-That-Be have been very careful not to put it into written form, but their corporate procedure is to encourage the hiring of fundamental Christians for any and all positions. Those ladies would not be likely to accept an abortion under any circumstances if it were offered to them. This whole mess is what Ben Franklin called "a tempest in a teacup". It was very cleverly positioned to bring public awareness of the store, and it has worked. It's moot - it has no legal bearing because it is patently illegal on its face. Every time they have tried, it has been tossed out of court. However, they are determined to prove that they are right and the rest of the United States is wrong.


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## bonniephillips (Feb 15, 2014)

Meanjean said:


> I joined this group for Knitting and Crochet help. ... Please let's not get political and just stick to what this site really if for!


yes, agreed


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Bea 465 said:


> I guess you didn't realize I edited my reply once I read the article and found that the statements about Muslims was not true.


The article states that Muslims are not specifically exempted but that religious groups that don't believe in insurance and do not participate in social security are exempted! The Koran states that participating in insurance is usary and is thereby forbidden. Some sects of Muslims follow the strict rule of the Koran, some don't! Anyone who follows the teachings of the Koran and does not believe in insurance is exempt!


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## Nittinnut (Jan 10, 2014)

Birth control is not ending life.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The article states that Muslims are not specifically exempted but that religious groups that don't believe in insurance and do not participate in social security are exempted! The Koran states that participating in insurance is usary and is thereby forbidden. Some sects of Muslims follow the strict rule of the Koran, some don't! Anyone who follows the teachings of the Koran and does not believe in insurance is exempt!


Kindly stay on point. Your conclusion is far too sweeping, as very few entities qualify for this exemption.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Thank you MaggiePringlemeir.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

bonniephillips said:


> JMHO, but when HL became a corporation or got a business license, that was from the state, and they are to abide by the laws of the state. We have a separation of church and state to allow religious freedom to worship on one's own, not in a state entity. Their stance effectively discriminates against those employees whose opinions differ. Render unto Caesar...
> 
> I don't care what the medical issue is, I do not want a politician or employer making decisions for me and my family.
> 
> but enough politics!!


I particularly do not want any particular religion meddling in my medical decisions, which is the foundation of many of these arguments. I have no problem following legitimate laws, so long as they are not influenced or sponsored by some religion.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaggiePringlemeir said:


> Hokay .. I have been reading and hoping that calmer heads would prevail before this subject becomes truly incindinary and sends the rest of us searching for our long red fire proof undies. They are itchey and sooo unattractive.
> 
> But I see one basic concept being skated right past. As mentioned before, the Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld the concept of every woman's right to choose what happens within her own body. This IS the law of the land and no one has the legal right to deny that medical procedure, not even major medical insurers. Trust me, they would LOVE to be able to deny those costs.
> 
> ...


The Constitution IS the law of the land! Nowhere does it say that if you incorporate, you give up your constitutional rights! But in fact, it does say "Congress SHALL MAKE NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion, OR prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...".

Furthermore, you say that legally and medically life begins at the first breath. That is not true! There is no legal definition of when life begins! Even Roe v Wade states that abortion is legal until the child is viable. It does NOT define viability! Every state sets its own cut off for viability. In nearly every state one may be charged with murder or manslaughter if they kill a fetus. Also know that infants born at 20 gestation survive and thrive. So who gets to decide when life begins? Not you or I!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I particularly do not want any particular religion meddling in my medical decisions, which is the foundation of many of these arguments. I have no problem following legitimate laws, so long as they are not influenced or sponsored by some religion.


This is not a case of religion meddling in your medical decisions! No one is telling you what to do! They are telling you not to meddle in their business! They do not want to participate in something that they deem evil!


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I also avoid WalMart and buy as much American-made merchandise as I can afford. I support my LYS (fortunate in that I can afford to do so sometimes).


Same here.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Let's get back to 'Knitting Paradise' and stop this.


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## Sophieroz (Dec 31, 2012)

What happened to the discussion about a company developing their own line of yarn?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

mmorris said:


> Let's get back to 'Knitting Paradise' and stop this.


Why? If it makes you uncomfortable, why do you read it? If adults want to carry out political discourse and no one is being harmed, why do you object? I thought we were having a fairly stimulating conversation.


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## Loe58 (Jan 28, 2013)

I do love "I Love This Yarn", but Hobby Lobby is hypocritical in picking and choosing which of their Christian principles they will uphold. The overwhelming majority of their products come from China, a country which has a mandatory abortion policy, a government which is hostile to religion (including Christianity), and has a terrible record on human rights. Yet Hobby Lobby continues to support China while fighting with the US government over a single issue. China's products are cheaper, so Hobby Lobby forgets its precious principles in order to make a bigger profit. But their yarn is great.


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## Loe58 (Jan 28, 2013)

I do love "I Love This Yarn", but Hobby Lobby is hypocritical in picking and choosing which of their Christian principles they will uphold. The overwhelming majority of their products come from China, a country which has a mandatory abortion policy, a government which is hostile to religion (including Christianity), and has a terrible record on human rights. Yet Hobby Lobby continues to support China while fighting with the US government over a single issue. China's products are cheaper, so Hobby Lobby forgets its precious principles in order to make a bigger profit. But their yarn is great.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Loe58 said:


> I do love "I Love This Yarn", but Hobby Lobby is hypocritical in picking and choosing which of their Christian principles they will uphold. The overwhelming majority of their products come from China, a country which has a mandatory abortion policy, a government which is hostile to religion (including Christianity), and has a terrible record on human rights. Yet Hobby Lobby continues to support China while fighting with the US government over a single issue. China's products are cheaper, so Hobby Lobby forgets its precious principles in order to make a bigger profit. But their yarn is great.


Have you ever tried to find anything that wasn't made in China! The vast majority of manufacturing has moved there thanks to NAFTA and GATT, courtesy of the US government! If Hobby Lobby decided not to carry anything from China, their stores would be empty!


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## Sophieroz (Dec 31, 2012)

Knitter from Neb--Its not that it makes me uncomfortable. Its just not the place for it. And since this started as a talk about yarn, I prefer to stay on the subject. Anyone else agree?


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## onegrannygoose (May 13, 2011)

Meanjean said:


> I applaud Hobby Lobby for standing on their christian principles. I like the "I Love this Yarn" also.


This is America and you do not have the right to tell me what I should use for birth control or any other item It is not standing up for you principles it is trying to control the rest of the people that do not believe what you do.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Thank you, Maggie, very well said.


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## normancha (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> For those of you who support Hobby Lobby's stand on birth control, you might want to know more about their ACTUAL practices, which are in direct conflict with their stated beliefs. A huge amount of their merchandise is purchased from China, at pennies on the dollar, allowing them to make excellent profits on Chinese labor. So it seems Hobby Lobby is fine with forced abortion and mandatory contraception when it benefits their bottom line but not for American women. I find this somewhat hypocritical. I won't shop there.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## RebeccaVM (Aug 14, 2012)

Meanjean said:


> I applaud Hobby Lobby for standing on their christian principles. I like the "I Love this Yarn" also.


Me too! to both comments


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

onegrannygoose said:


> This is America and you do not have the right to tell me what I should use for birth control or any other item It is not standing up for you principles it is trying to control the rest of the people that do not believe what you do.


No one, including Hobby Lobby, is trying to tell you what kind of birth control you can or should use. Really! We don't care what "you" do! We, including Hobby Lobby, don't want you telling "us" that we have to pay for abortion because we consider it to be murder. We believe that supporting abortion in any way is a sin.


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## Suzeluvs2stix (Jun 11, 2011)

I am very happy that so many of you won't shop at HL, because I won't have wait for you to move out of my way so I can shop at HL. Great store and they pay well also. You can always order Red Heart online and pay full price but that won't make you happy either.


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## Nittinnut (Jan 10, 2014)

Loe58 said:


> I do love "I Love This Yarn", but Hobby Lobby is hypocritical in picking and choosing which of their Christian principles they will uphold. The overwhelming majority of their products come from China, a country which has a mandatory abortion policy, a government which is hostile to religion (including Christianity), and has a terrible record on human rights. Yet Hobby Lobby continues to support China while fighting with the US government over a single issue. China's products are cheaper, so Hobby Lobby forgets its precious principles in order to make a bigger profit. But their yarn is great.


Much of religion now preaches the value that believers are entitled/promised wealth. If generosity and compassion and rationality conflicts with the acquisition of wealth...acquisition wins. I'm not a believer but I do appreciate Pope Francis. He personifies humility over arrogance. i'm willing to say 'i don't know' but erring on the side of generosity. I don't care how good their yarn is, i will not shop at HL.


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## Nittinnut (Jan 10, 2014)

My 2014 New Year's Resolution was to use only wool yarn grown, processed, and died in USA. I'm not a 'died in the wool' nationalist (no pun intended), but I like the idea that people are raising sheep, shearing their wool, and processing it right here.

As a yarn addict, I also appreciate that I buy less impulsively. I informed my LYS that this was my 2014 goal. One LYS pretty much said, ' good luck', the other pointed out the US origin wools she had on hand.

Another reason I don't buy at Hobby Lobby.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Nittinnut said:


> Much of religion now preaches the value that believers are entitled/promised wealth. If generosity and compassion and rationality conflicts with the acquisition of wealth...acquisition wins. I'm not a believer but I do appreciate Pope Francis. He personifies humility over arrogance. i'm willing to say 'i don't know' but erring on the side of generosity. I don't care how good their yarn is, i will not shop at HL.


All true for me too. Pope Francis impresses me. Actually, I worry for his safety.

Personally, I don't like I Love This Yarn.

As I stated earlier, I used to buy a particular wool yarn at HL -- Snowflake -- but now I won't shop there and haven't for a long time.

I won't shop at Walmart either.

Just as the strong Christians stand up for HL, I refuse to give them my money. We shop with our hearts, not just our bank accounts.

I mostly knit with wool, wool blends, and animal fibers because I enjoy them much more. There is nothing wrong with acrylics and they definitely have their place. I've used them for children's garments and for donation.

Last xmas I made my grandson a vest using Cascade 220 SW. It turned out lovely.


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## Judithlynn (May 13, 2012)

Raybo said:


> Wonder who makes it?


I was at Hob Lob today. The yarn is called Crafter's Choice and is made in Turkey. The label just says Hobby Lobby, Inc. I feels just like Super Saver to me.


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## Judithlynn (May 13, 2012)

kimdegrazia said:


> The morning after pill is now available over the counter. There should no longer be any arguing over health benefits.


As I understand it the abortion pill is still part of Obamacare, too.


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## Judithlynn (May 13, 2012)

azmoonbugs said:


> You don't even understand what is going on here. HL does not want to have their employees to have the access to free contraceptives that the AHA mandates.
> 
> If they(and others get their way) then what will be next. " I don't believe in CAT scans, MRI scams etc. because of my religious beliefs, so I will not pay to have them in my health care"?


I'm afraid you have been misinformed. The only problem Hobby Lobby has with contraceptives is the ABORTION PILL! I see no reason someone should be forced to take part in abortion.


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## Judithlynn (May 13, 2012)

DGreen said:


> If they were sincere conscientious objectors they might have a case that I could support. But they are definitely not consistent in their actions. If they truly believed abortion and contraception is wrong, they would not profit on China's labor.


First, it's NOT contraception, it IS abortion. Second, what does one have to do with the other? I'm not saying what the Chinese pay their workers is right, but it's definitely not murder.


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## Judithlynn (May 13, 2012)

damemary said:


> This makes no sense to anyone but you.


When my taxes pay for someone to get an abortion, my rights are being infringed on.


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## bobctwn65 (Jul 27, 2012)

I like their yarn but I have noticed their prices have went up and inventory on site is not as plentiful .as before...or is it just me.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

I agree w/you Loe.


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## Judithlynn (May 13, 2012)

Nittinnut said:


> Birth control is not ending life.


That may be true, but abortion does.


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## Judithlynn (May 13, 2012)

onegrannygoose said:


> This is America and you do not have the right to tell me what I should use for birth control or any other item It is not standing up for you principles it is trying to control the rest of the people that do not believe what you do.


By the same token, no one has the right to tell me or Hobby Lobby that we have to pay for someone's abortion! This is not a problem about birth control.


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## Judithlynn (May 13, 2012)

Nittinnut said:


> Much of religion now preaches the value that believers are entitled/promised wealth. If generosity and compassion and rationality conflicts with the acquisition of wealth...acquisition wins. I'm not a believer but I do appreciate Pope Francis. He personifies humility over arrogance. i'm willing to say 'i don't know' but erring on the side of generosity. I don't care how good their yarn is, i will not shop at HL.


I think you need to check your facts. All believers are entitled to is God's blessings. If that includes living comfortably, then good; but that's not necessarily so.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Ah for crying out loud! Birth control is legal; abortion is legal. 

All women should have access to birth control through their insurance plans; no one is mandated to use birth control; no one is mandated to have an abortion.

As long as Viagra and related brands are available through insurance plans, you (the collective you) should shut up about birth control. How about penis pumps? Insurance covers them too.

The more available birth control is, the less women will have unwanted pregnancies.

There are particular prescriptions that I would not take. Maybe it offends my philosophy/religion/beliefs, but I have no problem if anyone else takes them.

I really don't care how narrow your religious beliefs are, but trying to force your beliefs on others is wrong. Disallowing birth control in an insurance plan is freaking narrow. 

I want every woman to have safe, reliable, and available birth control. No woman seeks an abortion with little to no thought. I am not pro-abortion, but I want it legal. 

Get real, we are not living in the 1800s.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Have you ever tried to find anything that wasn't made in China! The vast majority of manufacturing has moved there thanks to NAFTA and GATT, courtesy of the US government! If Hobby Lobby decided not to carry anything from China, their stores would be empty!


No, not courtesy of the US government. For the bottom line, same as every other company who either purchases cheap goods overseas or moves their jobs overseas. They have a choice and they exercise it.

By the way, if you read your yarn labels, a LOT of yarn is made in Turkey. I will grant that a lot of what we buy is made in China. The point is, Hobby Lobby is making an issue in this instance and they are hypocrites to do so.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Judithlynn said:


> By the same token, no one has the right to tell me or Hobby Lobby that we have to pay for someone's abortion! This is not a problem about birth control.


The lawsuit deals directly and specifically with birth control. Which, like abortion (with reasonable limits), is legal. You forget who is trying to force their beliefs on whom.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Judithlynn said:


> When my taxes pay for someone to get an abortion, my rights are being infringed on.


In case you missed it earlier, please look up the Hyde Amendment. Your taxes don't pay for abortion.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No one, including Hobby Lobby, is trying to tell you what kind of birth control you can or should use. Really! We don't care what "you" do! We, including Hobby Lobby, don't want you telling "us" that we have to pay for abortion because we consider it to be murder. We believe that supporting abortion in any way is a sin.


Hobby Lobby specifically is suing over providing BIRTH CONTROL, not abortion. You may want to split hairs over how birth control works, but you are in the minority and don't get to have it your way. You don't get to have the law of the land cater to you because of your idea of sin. Which, by the way is A RELIGIOUS BELIEF. The first amendment says you can't pass laws based on that due to separation of church and state.


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## tanner49855 (Dec 18, 2011)

Colorado knits said:


> Ah for crying out loud! Birth control is legal; abortion is legal.
> 
> All women should have access to birth control through their insurance plans; no one is mandated to use birth control; no one is mandated to have an abortion.
> 
> ...


 Totally agree!!


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## JeanneW (Feb 9, 2013)

Me five or whatever number we are one. Employees have the right to chose for themselves what medical practices they wish to use.


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## Judithlynn (May 13, 2012)

DGreen said:


> The lawsuit deals directly and specifically with birth control. Which, like abortion (with reasonable limits), is legal. You forget who is trying to force their beliefs on whom.


The case is not about birth control. Hobby Lobby offers birth control with their insurance. They do not want to offer the abortion pill. I think you forget who is trying to force their beliefs on whom. Abortion may be legal, but it is not moral. It is murder.


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## Judithlynn (May 13, 2012)

DGreen said:


> In case you missed it earlier, please look up the Hyde Amendment. Your taxes don't pay for abortion.


I pay taxes to the federal government. The Hyde Amendment is just window dressing so they can claim that objecters money is not used. I'm not that gullible.


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## Judithlynn (May 13, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Hobby Lobby specifically is suing over providing BIRTH CONTROL, not abortion. You may want to split hairs over how birth control works, but you are in the minority and don't get to have it your way. You don't get to have the law of the land cater to you because of your idea of sin. Which, by the way is A RELIGIOUS BELIEF. The first amendment says you can't pass laws based on that due to separation of church and state.


The 1st amendment doesn't say anything about the sepsrstion of church and state. Hobby Lobby IS suing about the abortion pill! And, yes, it is because of a religeous belief. The government is trying to push President Obama's beliefs on David Green and his family.


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## Woolywarmer (May 31, 2011)

me too.


jumbleburt said:


> Me too! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Bea 465 (Mar 27, 2011)

Judithlynn said:


> The case is not about birth control. Hobby Lobby offers birth control with their insurance. They do not want to offer the abortion pill. I think you forget who is trying to force their beliefs on whom. Abortion may be legal, but it is not moral. It is murder.


The Becket Fund representing Hobby Lobby stated in their brief filed with the Supreme Court, that the ObamaCare contraception mandate states that companies that provide health insurance must give employees cost-free access to 20 contraceptives. Green, the company's president and son of the company's founder said his family objects to four they believe can trigger abortions. Hobby Lobby attorneys say the government's own brief concedes that some methods could prevent a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus.

So Hobby Lobby does not object to ALL contraception methods, but 4 of the 20 that can trigger abortions.


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## morningglory17 (Oct 21, 2012)

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## morningglory17 (Oct 21, 2012)

peachy51 said:


> :thumbup: I agree. Anytime a company is not allowed to stand on their principles, they should go out of business. Anyone who doesn't agree with their principles doesn't have to work there or shop there. As for me, I will keep shopping Hobby Lobby. :mrgreen:


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Judithlynn said:


> The case is not about birth control. Hobby Lobby offers birth control with their insurance. They do not want to offer the abortion pill. I think you forget who is trying to force their beliefs on whom. Abortion may be legal, but it is not moral. It is murder.


ABORTION IS NOT MURDER!

Abortion may not be moral to you, but morals and crimes are different.

No one goes around thinking, "Oh, goodie. An abortion" No one thinks it's wonderful, but, certainly, it is the best decision at times. It needs to be legal.

It's a choice, people!

Abortions will always be with us; let's keep it legal and not let one band of people deny access for others. It's easy to say to not work at HL, but, really, in today's job market, people are keeping jobs they have.

Unless you have adopted babies, you have not put your money where your mouth is.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Hobby Lobby specifically is suing over providing BIRTH CONTROL, not abortion. You may want to split hairs over how birth control works, but you are in the minority and don't get to have it your way. You don't get to have the law of the land cater to you because of your idea of sin. Which, by the way is A RELIGIOUS BELIEF. The first amendment says you can't pass laws based on that due to separation of church and state.


I'm sorry! But you need to READ the 1st Amendment!!! See, I think the biggest problem is that most people have NO idea what the Constitution says! It says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion OR prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.".

NOWHERE does it mention separation of church and state! Just because you heard someone say it, doesn't make it true! This is an illegal law and people better learn their rights or they will lose them!!! You might not care about losing this right but the next one might affect you in a bigger way! If you don't defend someone else's rights, they won't be there to defend yours!!!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Colorado knits said:


> ABORTION IS NOT MURDER!


There is a very fine line between abortion and murder! The definition of murder is the "unlawful" premeditated killing of one human being by another. Some of us don't believe that government sanctioned murder is legal even if lawmakers say it is!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Colorado knits said:


> ABORTION IS NOT MURDER!
> 
> Abortion may not be moral to you, but morals and crimes are different.
> 
> ...


Oh! And I HAVE adopted a baby!!! A drug baby, in fact!!!


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## seadog (Jan 4, 2014)

whitetail said:


> Love Hobby Lobby and their yarn. I admire that they stand up for their rights, agree, nobody is making the people work there, other places to go if they don't like the policy.


Yes, you can always go somewhere else. . . AND I DO!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh! And I HAVE adopted a baby!!! A drug baby, in fact!!!


She suffers from Attachment Disorder from the severe neglect she suffered as an infant!!!


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## JMBeals (Nov 27, 2013)

Suzeluvs2stix said:


> I am very happy that so many of you won't shop at HL, because I won't have wait for you to move out of my way so I can shop at HL. Great store and they pay well also. You can always order Red Heart online and pay full price but that won't make you happy either.


  :thumbup:


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## JMBeals (Nov 27, 2013)

Judithlynn said:


> I pay taxes to the federal government. The Hyde Amendment is just window dressing so they can claim that objecters money is not used. I'm not that gullible.[/quote
> 
> Ask any ER nurse how the Hyde amendment is circumvented.... and that procedure IS covered by Medicaid.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh! And I HAVE adopted a baby!!! A drug baby, in fact!!!


We have adopted two children.


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## cherylthompson (Feb 18, 2013)

peachy51 said:


> :thumbup: I agree. Anytime a company is not allowed to stand on their principles, they should go out of business. Anyone who doesn't agree with their principles doesn't have to work there or shop there. As for me, I will keep shopping Hobby Lobby. :mrgreen:


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## mdok (Mar 20, 2013)

Sometimes Hobby Lobby puts an item on clearance if it has been in stock for a long period of time. They apparently have a formula for this. I have en yarns beads scrapbooking paper, ink stamp, and other items they carry all the time in their clearance aisle. Some of the clearance items are items that didn't sell well, and will not be ordered again. Just y experience with my local Hobby Lobby store.


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## bonniephillips (Feb 15, 2014)

I love the idea of buying just American-sourced yarn! This year I am trying to stash-bust, but that sounds like a great resolution for 2015. Thanks for the inspiration!


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## mzmom1 (Mar 4, 2011)

diane.dee said:


> went to hobby lobby today-they have discontinued red heart yarn. who the heck discontinues that yarn?!


Bet they are going to introduce a store brand that Red Heart would compete with.


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## MJF (Mar 20, 2013)

Colorado knits said:


> ABORTION IS NOT MURDER!
> 
> Abortion may not be moral to you, but morals and crimes are different.
> 
> ...


THANK YOU, Colorado!!


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## Sophieroz (Dec 31, 2012)

I am still trying to buy only yarn made in the USA. I did get a list from Lion Brand stating which of their yarns are made here. 

Yet--if you want wool, there are wonderful breeds of sheep that do best in other countries and climates. Though some are now being bred here, don't overlook those from overseas.

Also, in this country, the Navajo Charro is being raised here again and I am spinning roving. It is a lovely wool.


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## uscgmom4 (Jul 6, 2012)

diane.dee said:


> went to hobby lobby today-they have discontinued red heart yarn. who the heck discontinues that yarn?!


 They discontinue Red Heart Yarn for a private label.....must probably made by Red Heart!! In the 60's all the rice came in the same ship to PR, from there it went to Sello Rojo, Valencia and the third can't remember. Still people say there was a difference in the grain of rice!! My family business also had a private label Ideal packed by Sello Rojo for the rice and Goya for the canned beans & tomato sauce!! Happy Knitting!!


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Sophieroz said:


> I am still trying to buy only yarn made in the USA. I did get a list from Lion Brand stating which of their yarns are made here.
> 
> Yet--if you want wool, there are wonderful breeds of sheep that do best in other countries and climates. Though some are now being bred here, don't overlook those from overseas.
> 
> Also, in this country, the Navajo Charro is being raised here again and I am spinning roving. It is a lovely wool.


I have a lot of Brown Sheep Yarn, from Mitchell, Nebraska. It's great yarn and the price is about right.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

morningglory17 said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Curves the exercise place, also had strong religious, right wing beliefs that they made very public. Ultimately it proved to be a very bad marketing plan. Many women were turned off to their anti-women politics and many of them closed, at least in NYC. Curves took a big hit and I am glad. A smart business person would know that airing your religious/political ideas in public can turn off customers.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> She suffers from Attachment Disorder from the severe neglect she suffered as an infant!!!


So did my cat who also went thru a very bad kittenhood. But with a lot of love and attention and firm limits,( behavioral training)my cat is now a wonderful, sleep machine. How did your girl turn out?


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## Sophieroz (Dec 31, 2012)

I do like Brown sheep wool. There are other good mills here as Blackberry Ridge. But acrylic yarn is made where??? in the USA? Ha.I use it all. Depends on the item I am knitting/crocheting. For me or a baby. On the same note--it is almost impossible to buy fabric made in the USA.


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## Pat FP (Nov 30, 2011)

If it's like the house brand micharls carries I will not buy iy. It was rough poor ly "spun" and far less quality than regular red heart.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> So did my cat who also went thru a very bad kittenhood. But with a lot of love and attention and firm limits,( behavioral training)my cat is now a wonderful, sleep machine. How did your girl turn out?


My daughter has turned into a loving caring person. She is the light of my life. Doctors said that she would never be able to attach to anyone because that part of her brain just never developed. If that is true, she had learned to adapt and acts like she does. We went through many years seeking specialists, sometimes traveling many miles. Attachment therapy was not readily available back then. Finally a Pyscholgist in Omaha, who had adopted a child with AD sought training and became an Attachment Disorder therapist. After we found her, things improved tremendously. My daughter is engaged. She was to have been married in May. But she has postponed the wedding. We will wait and see. Even though we have had many years or turmoil, I wouldn't trade her for the world!!! She is a blessing in my life! I only wish I could have made things easier for her.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> My daughter has turned into a loving caring person. She is the light of my life. Doctors said that she would never be able to attach to anyone because that part of her brain just never developed. If that is true, she had learned to adapt and acts like she does. We went through many years seeking specialists, sometimes traveling many miles. Attachment therapy was not readily available back then. Finally a Pyscholgist in Omaha, who had adopted a child with AD sought training and became an Attachment Disorder therapist. After we found her, things improved tremendously. My daughter is engaged. She was to have been married in May. But she has postponed the wedding. We will wait and see. Even though we have had many years or turmoil, I wouldn't trade her for the world!!! She is a blessing in my life! I only wish I could have made things easier for her.


Brava to you and I hope you reap the rewards of all your wonderful efforts. Reprogramming the cat was tough enough - I can imagine how hard it must be to do the same with a human.


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## nitcronut (Aug 9, 2011)

Believe me it's all profit motivated. Also be warned their line pills after a couple of washes and Red Heart does not.

Had a strange experience a few weeks back. Hobby Lobby had just opened their store in Bakersfield. I don't get to go to that town maybe once a month so I stopped in HL to get me some styro foam heads. Well the ladies was marked $4.99 and the men's was $9.99. I went to the customer service desk to ask why a male head was twice the price and expected to get a silly explanation only to be told it was an error and they should both be $4.99. Good! When I got home I realized I should have gotten a couple more heads since they are impossible to get in the Kern River Valley. So about six weeks later I'm back in Bkrsfld and HL and guess what the men's heads are still marked $9.99. Once again I questioned the price and once again was told it was an error and should be $4.99. So if you bought a male foam head at HL you paid twice the price. So now I wonder what else is wrongly marked just so they can get more money from me. I had expected them to correct the wrong price after my first visit there. Am I wrong?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

I wouldn't read too much into it - it could have been a simple oversight by the clerk who has lots to do and who simply forgot to fix it. Even though I don't care for HB, a "sales tactic" such as that (if widespread in the store) would quickly be recognized by the public and would turn off customers.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I wouldn't read too much into it - it could have been a simple oversight by the clerk who has lots to do and who simply forgot to fix it. Even though I don't care for HB, a "sales tactic" such as that (if widespread in the store) would quickly be recognized by the public and would turn off customers.


Hobby Lobby is more expensive than Michael's. I really don't know about JoAnn's as I don't have a real close one. I don't do other crafts besides knitting.


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## Knitcrazydeborah (Oct 25, 2011)

peachy51 said:


> :thumbup: I agree. Anytime a company is not allowed to stand on their principles, they should go out of business. Anyone who doesn't agree with their principles doesn't have to work there or shop there. As for me, I will keep shopping Hobby Lobby. :mrgreen:


I couldn't agree more. I worked at a wonderful Catholic hospital in Florida, which had an amazing, caring, compassionate obstetrics unit. The staff were the best I'd ever seen (in 40+ years as a nurse....I'd seen plenty!) and the unit was loved by the community. That is until the State began requiring that the Sisters of Allegheny perform abortions or lose all payments for Medicare & Medicaid patients. So the hospital - after serving the community since the early 1900's closed it's maternity units. It was a terrible loss and I learned first hand what crushing governmental intrusion can mean to a community.


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## Knitcrazydeborah (Oct 25, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I wouldn't read too much into it - it could have been a simple oversight by the clerk who has lots to do and who simply forgot to fix it. Even though I don't care for HB, a "sales tactic" such as that (if widespread in the store) would quickly be recognized by the public and would turn off customers.


I hate to think ill of people, but I've had many many "rip off" experiences with JoAnn's in 2 different states. Using a 40% off coupon, they have at least 10 times taken the 40% off my lowest priced item rather than the highest priced item. And when I try to use a coupon on a certain yarn or bead (& magazines back when they let you use a coupon on magazines) they say "Sorry, that item is on sale today". No sign, not in the flyer, but it's on sale & my coupon doesn't work. I'd believe it was a simple error but when it happens over and over, it's corporate policy!


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## Suzeluvs2stix (Jun 11, 2011)

DGreen said:


> In case you missed it earlier, please look up the Hyde Amendment. Your taxes don't pay for abortion.


In 2013, Planned Parenthood received 540.6 million $$ from the US government through grants that are financed with our tax dollars. Therefore, yes, our tax dollars do provide for abortions and those of us who believe it is murder are NOT allowed to exempt our portion of money from funding it. Don't hide behind the Hyde.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Suzeluvs2stix said:


> In 2013, Planned Parenthood received 540.6 million $$ from the US government through grants that are financed with our tax dollars. Therefore, yes, our tax dollars do provide for abortions and those of us who believe it is murder are NOT allowed to exempt our portion of money from funding it. Don't hide behind the Hyde.


Planned Parenthood is certainly not all abortions by a long shot. They provide all kinds of gynecological services to women who may not have other options. So fret more about your tax money going to needless wars rather than services to women.


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## Suzeluvs2stix (Jun 11, 2011)

SQM said:


> Planned Parenthood is certainly not all abortions by a long shot. They provide all kinds of gynecological services to women who may not have other options. So fret more about your tax money going to needless wars rather than services to women.


PP is the number 1 provider of abortions in the US. I can't do much about needless wars, but I can reach out to the woman next to me and help her find another way that doesn't end up in a senseless murder of an innocent infant and haunting memories that will follow that woman the rest of her life.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Suzeluvs2stix said:


> PP is the number 1 provider of abortions in the US. I can't do much about needless wars, but I can reach out to the woman next to me and help her find another way that doesn't end up in a senseless murder of an innocent infant and haunting memories that will follow that woman the rest of her life.


How do you know this fact? Please send me a reliable, unbiased link that would prove this. But that is actually besides the point. Abortions are the law of the land. Women will always seek abortions. Unfortunately what has happened in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas where all abortion clinics have been closed, women are doing it themselves. is that what you prefer? Once theses women have done serious damage, there are no gynecologists to help them since another part of this nefarious plan is not to give drs. who perform abortions hospital affiliations. Women will always have abortions, women will always have abortions. I mourn for the senseless deaths of women if the government followed your ideas. Please don't get an abortion but allow me my privilege to choose. And lastly, stay out of my vagina with all of your moralizing.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Only because so many other options have been eliminated. Thanks for making a legal abortion almost impossible to get in many states. On religious grounds. Which violates MY religious liberties.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Suzeluvs2stix said:


> PP is the number 1 provider of abortions in the US. I can't do much about needless wars, but I can reach out to the woman next to me and help her find another way that doesn't end up in a senseless murder of an innocent infant and haunting memories that will follow that woman the rest of her life.


Anti-abortion propaganda at it's best. An embryo IS NOT an "infant" and using that terminology is specifically designed to skew the argument. Research has PROVEN that the haunting memories you refer to is a fabrication invented by the anti-abortion movement. Doesn't exist. The word "murder" is also deliberately inflammatory and inaccurate. Abortion is not murder - it is LEGAL. Stay out of my life and my morality. Christian morality claims to hold the high ground and to follow an "absolute" moral imperative but Christianity is as RELAVITIST as it gets.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

And may I add to DGreen's post - following religious thinking without critical thinking makes you a stupid person.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> And may I add to DGreen's post - following religious thinking without critical thinking makes you a stupid person.


Thank you, SQM


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## Suzeluvs2stix (Jun 11, 2011)

SQM said:


> How do you know this fact? Please send me a reliable, unbiased link that would prove this. But that is actually besides the point. Abortions are the law of the land. Women will always seek abortions. Unfortunately what has happened in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas where all abortion clinics have been closed, women are doing it themselves. is that what you prefer? Once theses women have done serious damage, there are no gynecologists to help them since another part of this nefarious plan is not to give drs. who perform abortions hospital affiliations. Women will always have abortions, women will always have abortions. I mourn for the senseless deaths of women if the government followed your ideas. Please don't get an abortion but allow me my privilege to choose. And lastly, stay out of my vagina with all of your moralizing.


It will better for you to look it up so you can't say I sent you something biased. I said NOTHING to demoralize you or anyone else. I hope you also are mourning the senseless deaths of the aborted unborn, they do include future women, and they didn't have a choice. I am not taking your privilege to choose away from you. As my grandmother told me, "keep a dime between your knees and your worries will be few". Call your mom and thank her for giving you life. If you have kids, go give them a hug & kiss and tell them how much you love them. They will appreciate it.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Thank you, SQM


De nada.

Peek in on these various threads to meet clever,thinking posters:

War on Women #5
L.O.L.L
Affordable Health care or Obamacare - I forget the exact name.
Domestic Violence - this one is wrenching and better behaved posters.

It can get a bit heated on these posts but we are all progressive thinkers battling the right-winged nut jobs which has been abbreviated to RWNJ. A lot of laughs. Introduce yourself.


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

SQM said:


> How do you know this fact? Please send me a reliable, unbiased link that would prove this.


Go read any of the Right to Life websites ... it's certainly not unbiased tho as it's slanted toward the anit-abortion and pro-life sects. Taxpayers have been paying for abortions for decades and anyone who thinks they have not paid for them is seriously misinformed.


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## Suzeluvs2stix (Jun 11, 2011)

SQM said:


> And may I add to DGreen's post - following religious thinking without critical thinking makes you a stupid person.


It is ok for you to call me stupid. You aren't the first and I am sure not the last. I am tolerant though and also a critical thinker. Please don't yell at your kids for calling each other names because they are only following your lead.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peachy51 said:


> Go read any of the Right to Life websites ... it's certainly not unbiased tho as it's slanted toward the anit-abortion and pro-life sects. Taxpayers have been paying for abortions for decades and anyone who thinks they have not paid for them is seriously misinformed.


No thanks. I have enough on my thread plate with plenty of right-wingers spewing their illogical thoughts. I am sure I am encountering them on some of my other threads. I rather pay for legal abortions than have my money used to support any Republican or military junk.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Suzeluvs2stix said:


> It is ok for you to call me stupid. You aren't the first and I am sure not the last. I am tolerant though and also a critical thinker. Please don't yell at your kids for calling each other names because they are only following your lead.


Seems like other people have figured you out, so my news is not new news.

Plus I was not calling you stupid. I was suggesting your ilk is stupid, but not necessarily you, in particular.


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

SQM said:


> Seems like other people have figured you out, so my news is not new news.
> 
> Plus I was not calling you stupid. I was suggesting your ilk is stupid, but not necessarily you, in particular.


I am glad to see that you clarified this as I was thinking that KP is really sinking low if we are resorting to calling each other names


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Knitcrazydeborah said:


> I hate to think ill of people, but I've had many many "rip off" experiences with JoAnn's in 2 different states. Using a 40% off coupon, they have at least 10 times taken the 40% off my lowest priced item rather than the highest priced item. And when I try to use a coupon on a certain yarn or bead (& magazines back when they let you use a coupon on magazines) they say "Sorry, that item is on sale today". No sign, not in the flyer, but it's on sale & my coupon doesn't work. I'd believe it was a simple error but when it happens over and over, it's corporate policy!


Ooooh! I totally agree with you! JoAnn's drives me crazy! One time I was going to buy PUL fabric (fabric with the rubber lining for diaper covers). The regular price was $11.99 a yard. I very carefully went through the ad to make sure it wasn't on sale. I had my coupon ready! When I got there, they had put up a sale sign saying, $1.00 off per yard!


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

SQM said:


> No thanks. I have enough on my thread plate with plenty of right-wingers spewing their illogical thoughts. I am sure I am encountering them on some of my other threads. I rather pay for legal abortions than have my money used to support any Republican or military junk.


I'm sorry. I'm certain you asked for verification on the previous page. Guess you weren't serious in that request.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peachy51 said:


> I am glad to see that you clarified this as I was thinking that KP is really sinking low if we are resorting to calling each other names


Of course on some threads we call each other names. So we have sunk low into hilarity.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peachy51 said:


> I'm sorry. I'm certain you asked for verification on the previous page. Guess you weren't serious in that request.


I asked for verification from real studies, not from knitting posters.


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

SQM said:


> I asked for verification from real studies, not from knitting posters.


LOL ... isn't that ALL we have on this forum ... knitting posters??? :?


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## Suzeluvs2stix (Jun 11, 2011)

SQM said:


> Seems like other people have figured you out, so my news is not new news.
> 
> Plus I was not calling you stupid. I was suggesting your ilk is stupid, but not necessarily you, in particular.


Save your strength, it is too late to back peddle. Any critical thinker can read your post and determine you weren't speaking of ilk. But if it will make you feel better, I will forgive you. Enjoy you evening of knitting and hopefully there aren't any "frogs" in your life.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Planned Parenthood is certainly not all abortions by a long shot. They provide all kinds of gynecological services to women who may not have other options. So fret more about your tax money going to needless wars rather than services to women.


Well, I guess we don't need planned parenthood anymore! With o-care, women have all kinds of options, don't they? Frankly, pp has always been about abortion and birth control. The talk of all the healthcare services they offer is crap! I may not want my money going to war but neither do I want it going to the war on unborn children! Funny thing is...I have NO choice!!! So, my question to you is, why do YOU get to have a choice, but I do not?!?


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## whitetail (Feb 19, 2011)

I have to laugh at people who say that a fetus is not a baby, what is it, a dog, a monkey? The word itself means offspring. If it wasn't a living human creature there wouldn't be anything to have to do away with would there. It has a brain, heart, cells, DNA, ETC. sounds very human to me, so if something is alive and beating and brain cells growing and you stop it, that's ending a life.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> And may I add to DGreen's post - following religious thinking without critical thinking makes you a stupid person.


Then I guess the converse would also be true. Following secular, progressive thinking without critical thinking would make you stupid person also?

Critical thinking could only cause you to realize that abortion is ending a life! Critical thinking could only cause you to realize that ending life causes death! Critical thinking could only cause you to realize that causing death is wrong! So perhaps you speak of your own "ilk"?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

whitetail said:


> I have to laugh at people who say that a fetus is not a baby, what is it, a dog, a monkey? The word itself means offspring. If it wasn't a living human creature there wouldn't be anything to have to do away with would there. It has a brain, heart, cells, DNA, ETC. sounds very human to me, so if something is alive and beating and brain cells growing and you stop it, that's ending a life.


I don't even laugh! I've SEEN fetuses! They are absolutely fully formed BABIES!!! Even at 20 weeks gestation a baby can survive and thrive! Abortion kills babies!!! Even Roe, as in Roe v Wade came to understand that abortion is wrong, that it is the killing of babies!


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Suzeluvs2stix said:


> PP is the number 1 provider of abortions in the US. I can't do much about needless wars, but I can reach out to the woman next to me and help her find another way that doesn't end up in a senseless murder of an innocent infant and haunting memories that will follow that woman the rest of her life.


Only about 3% of Planned Parenthood's resources are for abortions. That leaves the rest for health care including birth control so women do not become pregnant!

I hope you think birth control is important.

A dime between the knees is just silly.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I am not going to argue abortion rights since we have that right by law. If you are anti-abortion, don't get one. Plain and simple. 

Are you also still fighting the War Between the States?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> De nada.
> 
> Peek in on these various threads to meet clever,thinking posters:
> 
> ...


I have another pressing task right now, but will figure out how to send a private message later. I appreciate your views and thoughtful comments. It's a crazy world.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I am not going to argue abortion rights since we have that right by law. If you are anti-abortion, don't get one. Plain and simple.
> 
> Are you also still fighting the War Between the States?


You know? The big question isn't about abortion rights. Its about whether we should be forced to pay for the killing of innocent babies! If you want to kill your baby and you think it's fine, why do you want to drag me into it? I consider it murder (yes, I know it's legal). I don't want to support the murder of innocent babies! Why do you get the choice and I don't?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Why do I have to have my tax dollars go to the military whose business is to kill viable people? That is the nature of our imperfect system of government. Maybe in a democracy, we have to accept the fact that we have to support, monetarily , causes we would wholeheartedly prefer not to.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> De nada.
> 
> Peek in on these various threads to meet clever,thinking posters:
> 
> ...


Oh yes! Go on these threads! They consist of a bunch of ignorant bullies! If you like to be in a place where you're not allowed to think and must follow the party line, then by all means go there! Not one of them knows anything that wasn't covered on the daily news. Oh! But they are sooo clever! But then, they do say that ignorance is bliss! If you disagree with anything they say, you will get a verbal beating and then they will talk about you behind your back. Its just like high school!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh yes! Go on these threads! They consist of a bunch of ignorant bullies! If you like to be in a place where you're not allowed to think and must follow the party line, then by all means go there! Not one of them knows anything that wasn't covered on the daily news. Oh! But they are sooo clever! But then, they do say that ignorance is bliss! If you disagree with anything they say, you will get a verbal beating and then they will talk about you behind your back. Its just like high school!


Actually it is more fun that high school which was no fun. It would be fairer to describe the posters as more progressive thinking than conservative. Yeah it can get a bit rough, but some of the comments are very funny. I will not deny that there is a lot of sparring but both sides get in great jabs. Just entertainment.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Actually it is more fun that high school which was no fun. It would be fairer to describe the posters as more progressive thinking than conservative. Yeah it can get a bit rough, but some of the comments are very funny. I will not deny that there is a lot of sparring but both sides get in great jabs. Just entertainment.


Oh, but you just called in the militia, over on WOW! What?!? You can dish it out but you can't take it!!!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Actually my comrades notified me of this site. ( Obviously I am new here.) Do you expect me to turn the other cheek rather than respond? Okay! Anything to make you happy. I will now agree with every comment made here. That will be just as much fun and challenging for me as does arguing.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Actually my comrades notified me of this site. ( Obviously I am new here.) Do you expect me to turn the other cheek rather than respond? Okay! Anything to make you happy. I will now agree with every comment made here. That will be just as much fun and challenging for me as does arguing.


Ahhh! Your use of the word "comrades" lends a hint to your thinking processes.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Ahhh! Your use of the word "comrades" lends a hint to your thinking processes.


Not plural - processes - but singular - process. I think about a lot of things, the least being Hobby Lobby. (I had to mention that otherwise, my post would be off topic.)


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Ahhh! Your use of the word "comrades" lends a hint to your thinking processes.


GET A GRIP.

The word comrade does not designate a thinking process. It's a perfectly good word in varied conversations.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Colorado knits said:


> GET A GRIP.
> 
> The word comrade does not designate a thinking process. It's a perfectly good word in varied conversations.


Not in my conversations! The most common use of the word is when communists use it to refer to each other!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Not in my conversations! The most common use of the word is when communists use it to refer to each other!


Dictionary.com:

1.

a person who shares in one's activities, occupation, etc.; companion, associate, or friend.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Dictionary.com:
> 
> 1.
> 
> a person who shares in one's activities, occupation, etc.; companion, associate, or friend.


Ah Green, a lady, scholar and seeker of the truth. What more can anyone ask? Oh I know - do you turn heels?


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Again, narrow thinking.


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## bonniephillips (Feb 15, 2014)

The Joann's register software is set to take Joann's coupons off the highest price non-sale items; competitor coupons have to be manually applied to a specific item. The policy is to apply it to the highest item, but if a cashier is lazy, it will only get applied to what they select. Joann's sales signs are put up by people, and people don't always get everything done if they are overworked. I do agree with your point that sales are deliberately set-up by HQ to prevent deep (coupon) discounts on certain items. All that said, Joann's allows you to use as many coupons as have different bar codes, so you can use the phone app, email coupons, text ones, website ones and others from the newspaper, plus one per competitor (except on fabric). Contrast this to AC Moore, that only allows use of one coupon per DAY. I have no idea what the policies are at Hancock Fabrics or HL.


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## my2blkcats (Jun 9, 2011)

WOW! I thought this was a knitting/crocheting site. It looks like it turned into a political, religious, civil rights site. I can't believe it just went through 17 pages of this. You guys should go at it on a PM or another site. Thanks.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> Ah Green, a lady, scholar and seeker of the truth. What more can anyone ask? Oh I know - do you turn heels?


I do, indeed! Kind of like a clever little miracle.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> I do, indeed! Kind of like a clever little miracle.


Oh you look so pretty. My Evil Republican Twin lives in Phoenix - how far away for there are you?

Hope to see you on some of the other threads.

Is Hobby Lobby closed on the Sabbath?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Thank you! Payson is about 95 miles northeast of Phoenix. I can get to the nearest Hobby Lobby (or not) in about an hour and fifteen minutes from here. We are about 5,000 elevation so the weather here is heaven compared to Phoenix - that's why we left the Phoenix area upon retiring. 40 years of brutal, unrelenting summer heat was more than enough for me. Small town, with both the good and not-so-good that comes with it. The drive between here and Phoenix is one of the most scenic in Arizona, climbing from low desert to pine forest and all vegetation zones between. Gorgeous.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Yes, Hobby Lobby is closed on the Sabbath. Not a problem for me! For all I care, they can close every other day of the week as well.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Yes, Hobby Lobby is closed on the Sabbath. Not a problem for me! For all I care, they can close every other day of the week as well.


Ha Ha Green. Thankfully they don't exist in NYC. I hope they eventually go the way of the dodo. When I was in the 'burbs of Chicago, my Christian fundamentalist niece was appalled by HL because they did not carry any ornaments for Chanukah. So a big blah to them.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

I'm not sure I understand her priorities. But then, I don't understand any of the Christian right wing priorities.


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## JMBeals (Nov 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You know? The big question isn't about abortion rights. Its about whether we should be forced to pay for the killing of innocent babies! If you want to kill your baby and you think it's fine, why do you want to drag me into it? I consider it murder (yes, I know it's legal). I don't want to support the murder of innocent babies! Why do you get the choice and I don't?


 :thumbup:


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I do, indeed! Kind of like a clever little miracle.


Ha, I always refer to a heel turn as magic.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I'm not sure I understand her priorities. But then, I don't understand any of the Christian right wing priorities.


Yeah, you and few million of us don't understand either.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

I've tried various other types of heel, but for some reason I just love the old-fashioned gusset - I've even figured out how to avoid the dreaded "hole" most of the time. Something about the math involved in the heel turn and gusset that is so satisfying - it always works.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Colorado knits said:


> Yeah, you and few million of us don't understand either.


The thing is, I can sincerely appreciate aversion to abortion because I share those sentiments. It's the other arguments and the desire to legislate their beliefs that baffle me. Annoying when the RWR people throw up their hands and say, you can have abortion - just don't make me pay for it. Seems like a last-ditch effort when every other argument fails. And they never bother to explore any but superficial arguments and never answer difficult questions. The financial argument is stupefying to me. Even the most superficial analysis of that causes me to put my face in my hands. The thing is, outlawing abortion won't ever, ever, ever achieve elimination of abortion. We need to protect women's lives and freedom to choose and stop minimizing the impact of pregnancy by calling it an inconvenience. Not to mention making sweeping and highly judgmental generalizations about personal responsibility. That one really ticks me off. Don't these RWR people know they would hurt themselves in the long run if they got their way?


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

DGreen said:


> I've tried various other types of heel, but for some reason I just love the old-fashioned gusset - I've even figured out how to avoid the dreaded "hole" most of the time. Something about the math involved in the heel turn and gusset that is so satisfying - it always works.


I also think that the heel turn is "magic!" But I also like the Sweet Tomato Heel that Cat Bordhi developed and I recently purchased the Fish Lips Kiss Heel and think I will try it next to compare.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

DGreen said:


> The thing is, I can sincerely appreciate aversion to abortion because I share those sentiments. It's the other arguments and the desire to legislate their beliefs that baffle me. Annoying when the RWR people throw up their hands and say, you can have abortion - just don't make me pay for it. Seems like a last-ditch effort when every other argument fails. And they never bother to explore any but superficial arguments and never answer difficult questions. The financial argument is stupefying to me. Even the most superficial analysis of that causes me to put my face in my hands. The thing is, outlawing abortion won't ever, ever, ever achieve elimination of abortion. We need to protect women's lives and freedom to choose and stop minimizing the impact of pregnancy by calling it an inconvenience. Not to mention making sweeping and highly judgmental generalizations about personal responsibility. That one really ticks me off. Don't these RWR people know they would hurt themselves in the long run if they got their way?


Agreed.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm not pro-abortion either, but I remember pre-Roe vs Wade and women bleeding to death or dying of septicemia because of illegal back street abortions. Legal abortions have been the law of the land for decades. No one is forcing anyone to have an abortion. There are rational reasons such as rape, incest, life of the mother etc. that warrant it in some peoples' opinion. It's a free country. MYOB



DGreen said:


> The thing is, I can sincerely appreciate aversion to abortion because I share those sentiments. It's the other arguments and the desire to legislate their beliefs that baffle me. Annoying when the RWR people throw up their hands and say, you can have abortion - just don't make me pay for it. Seems like a last-ditch effort when every other argument fails. And they never bother to explore any but superficial arguments and never answer difficult questions. The financial argument is stupefying to me. Even the most superficial analysis of that causes me to put my face in my hands. The thing is, outlawing abortion won't ever, ever, ever achieve elimination of abortion. We need to protect women's lives and freedom to choose and stop minimizing the impact of pregnancy by calling it an inconvenience. Not to mention making sweeping and highly judgmental generalizations about personal responsibility. That one really ticks me off. Don't these RWR people know they would hurt themselves in the long run if they got their way?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> The thing is, I can sincerely appreciate aversion to abortion because I share those sentiments. It's the other arguments and the desire to legislate their beliefs that baffle me. Annoying when the RWR people throw up their hands and say, you can have abortion - just don't make me pay for it. Seems like a last-ditch effort when every other argument fails. And they never bother to explore any but superficial arguments and never answer difficult questions. The financial argument is stupefying to me. Even the most superficial analysis of that causes me to put my face in my hands. The thing is, outlawing abortion won't ever, ever, ever achieve elimination of abortion. We need to protect women's lives and freedom to choose and stop minimizing the impact of pregnancy by calling it an inconvenience. Not to mention making sweeping and highly judgmental generalizations about personal responsibility. That one really ticks me off. Don't these RWR people know they would hurt themselves in the long run if they got their way?


"desire to legislate their beliefs" ??? You CAN'T be serious!!! All of the legislating is being done by the other side!!! THAT'S what WE'RE complaining about!!! Surely you can see the hyprocracy in your statement!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Not at all. You're only hearing your point of view.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> "desire to legislate their beliefs" ??? You CAN'T be serious!!! All of the legislating is being done by the other side!!! THAT'S what WE'RE complaining about!!! Surely you can see the hyprocracy in your statement!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I'm not pro-abortion either, but I remember pre-Roe vs Wade and women bleeding to death or dying of septicemia because of illegal back street abortions. Legal abortions have been the law of the land for decades. No one is forcing anyone to have an abortion. There are rational reasons such as rape, incest, life of the mother etc. that warrant it in some peoples' opinion. It's a free country. MYOB


Do you REALLY remember ANYONE "bleeding to death or dying of septicemia"? I've lived a long time and I've never known anyone, or had friends or acquaintances who have known anyone, who bled to death or died of septicemia from an illegal abortion! I've no doubt that it happened but it was hardly an epidemic. You probably heard the propaganda from those with an agenda!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I personally knew people who died. It's stayed with me all these years. These were young women who did not deserve to die because they made a mistake. They didn't deserve to lose the ability to ever have a child. What makes an 'epidemic?' Thousands? More?? One??? In my opinion, it's not the numbers that count.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Do you REALLY remember ANYONE "bleeding to death or dying of septicemia"? I've lived a long time and I've never known anyone, or had friends or acquaintances who have known anyone, who bled to death or died of septicemia from an illegal abortion! I've no doubt that it happened but it was hardly an epidemic. You probably heard the propaganda from those with an agenda!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I personally knew people who died. It's stayed with me all these years. These were young women who did not deserve to die because they made a mistake. What makes an 'epidemic?' Thousands? More?? One???


Wow! You personally knew "people", "women" as in plural? Who died from illegal abortions??? And so, what was their mistake, getting pregnant or getting an abortion? And are you aware that women STILL bleed to death and die of septicemia from LEGAL abortions?!?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm sorry. I have violated my own rule about not getting into discussion with defensive people. No more. Good-bye.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Wow! You personally knew "people", "women" as in plural? Who died from illegal abortions??? And so, what was their mistake, getting pregnant or getting an abortion? And are you aware that women STILL bleed to death and die of septicemia from LEGAL abortions?!?


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## MJF (Mar 20, 2013)

peachy51 said:


> I also think that the heel turn is "magic!" But I also like the Sweet Tomato Heel that Cat Bordhi developed and I recently purchased the Fish Lips Kiss Heel and think I will try it next to compare.


I just completed my first sock without running to my LYS for help with the heel. So, yes it is magic and I did it all by myself! For me, the Sweet Tomato and Fish Lips Kiss heels are way down the line....but I will get there some day. This site is so helpful with tips and instruction!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> "desire to legislate their beliefs" ??? You CAN'T be serious!!! All of the legislating is being done by the other side!!! THAT'S what WE'RE complaining about!!! Surely you can see the hyprocracy in your statement!


I would invite you to examine the record of Congress, where effectively NOTHING is happening.

Let me explain regarding abortion.

1. Abortion is legal - this was settled by the Supreme Court in the 1970's.

2. Right wing conservative religious people are clamoring to abolish abortion based on their RELIGIOUS view that it is immoral. Please note the total absence of left-wing groups voicing this agenda.

3. The only way to abolish abortion is to pass legislation making it illegal.

Tell me again what you don't understand or follow...?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I'm sorry. I have violated my own rule about not getting into discussion with defensive people. No more. Good-bye.


Gee, and I thought you were sounding defensive!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Wow! You personally knew "people", "women" as in plural? Who died from illegal abortions??? And so, what was their mistake, getting pregnant or getting an abortion? And are you aware that women STILL bleed to death and die of septicemia from LEGAL abortions?!?


If they die of those things, it is in far, far fewer numbers. Please don't fall into the trap of believing the pro-life propaganda. If you insist on make this claim, please justify your position based on FACT. By that I mean look up the number of women who died prior to Roe vs. Wade and compare them to the number who suffer complications of abortion today. No fair using pro-life or pro-choice figures.

Also, please refrain from judgments about whether women are to be condemned because they "made the mistake" of getting pregnant. Who appointed you the arbiter of other women's morals regarding sex?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MJF said:


> I just completed my first sock without running to my LYS for help with the heel. So, yes it is magic and I did it all by myself! For me, the Sweet Tomato and Fish Lips Kiss heels are way down the line....but I will get there some day. This site is so helpful with tips and instruction!


Congratulations! The next one will be easier...then easier and easier after that. Good for you MJF.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Do you REALLY remember ANYONE "bleeding to death or dying of septicemia"? I've lived a long time and I've never known anyone, or had friends or acquaintances who have known anyone, who bled to death or died of septicemia from an illegal abortion! I've no doubt that it happened but it was hardly an epidemic. You probably heard the propaganda from those with an agenda!


It is the do-it-yourselfers who died from not having access to legal abortions.

Ladies, don't you love people who cherish an embryo over viable people? How do these babies fare if the teen is a poverty girl and the boyfriend skipped? Or the married woman who just cannot afford another kid? Or the victim of domestic violence who suffers more when made pregnant by her tormenter? I am all for investing in great reliable birth control. Is HL against that, too?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> It is the do-it-yourselfers who died from not having access to legal abortions.
> 
> Ladies, don't you love people who cherish an embryo over viable people? How do these babies fare if the teen is a poverty girl and the boyfriend skipped? Or the married woman who just cannot afford another kid? Or the victim of domestic violence who suffers more when made pregnant by her tormenter? I am all for investing in great reliable birth control. Is HL against that, too?


Actually, HL's problem is with birth control that they think acts by causing abortion. Morning-after pill, IUD's, that sort of thing. I don't think I've heard anything about their position on abortion, though it's safe to assume they don't want to "pay" for that, either. Inextricably linked, I would say. But to be fair, they don't seem to object to the pill, condoms, diaphragms, etc.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Try to remember that back before Roe vs. Wade women were rightfully terrified of the back-alley abortionist and may have chosen to just go ahead with their pregnancies because the alternative was worse, especially for a mother facing the risk of leaving her children motherless. CDC figures show a major spike in reported abortions in the first years following Roe vs. Wade. Tells me women wanted abortions but either could not get them or were afraid to get them. Some who went to the abortionist or resorted to self-induced abortion died. How tragic.

Of course, this slavery to reproduction kept them pretty much in second-class status and at the mercy of their husbands, which is one reason abortion is linked so closely with women's rights. Control of our own bodies and reproductive lives is fundamentally a human right. Of course, some religious people are trying to tell today's young women that ALL birth control is bad for them and the answer to our nation's problem is outlawing sex education in favor of abstinence only. Of course, the Catholic Church also clings desperately to the ideal of "chastity" both IN and out of marriage (sex ONLY for procreation, but never for single people except priests). Curiously, in places where this is policy, teen pregnancy rates rise - and presumably abortions. As far as abstinence-only education goes, let's ask Sarah Palin how that worked out for her.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Try to remember that back before Roe vs. Wade women were rightfully terrified of the back-alley abortionist and may have chosen to just go ahead with their pregnancies because the alternative was worse, especially for a mother facing the risk of leaving her children motherless. CDC figures show a major spike in reported abortions in the first years following Roe vs. Wade. Tells me women wanted abortions but either could not get them or were afraid to get them. Some who went to the abortionist or resorted to self-induced abortion died. How tragic.
> 
> Of course, this slavery to reproduction kept them pretty much in second-class status and at the mercy of their husbands, which is one reason abortion is linked so closely with women's rights. Control of our own bodies and reproductive lives is fundamentally a human right. Of course, some religious people are trying to tell today's young women that ALL birth control is bad for them and the answer to our nation's problem is outlawing sex education in favor of abstinence only. Of course, the Catholic Church also clings desperately to the ideal of "chastity" both IN and out of marriage (sex ONLY for procreation, but never for single people except priests). Curiously, in places where this is policy, teen pregnancy rates rise - and presumably abortions. As far as abstinence-only education goes, let's ask Sarah Palin how that worked out for her.


Oh my Bright Green, you are such a gem. Definitely my find of the week. So glad to have your good sense on these pages.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

A friend was in HL a few days ago. They were playing Hymns on the loud speakers. Talk about Subliminal Advertising!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Are Hobby Lobbies successful stores? Or can I harbor hope that they can go out of business?


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Wow! You personally knew "people", "women" as in plural? Who died from illegal abortions??? And so, what was their mistake, getting pregnant or getting an abortion? And are you aware that women STILL bleed to death and die of septicemia from LEGAL abortions?!?


These aren't immaculate conceptions (as if I ever believed that possible) so why does no one mention the men who got these women pregnant? It takes two people to create a baby yet the woman receives all the blame for an unwanted pregnancy.

Oh yeah, the dime between the knees. I forgot that.

Sad, sad.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> Are Hobby Lobbies successful stores? Or can I harbor hope that they can go out of business?


They are very successful. They have hundreds of stores across the country. They carry a full range of craft supplies, plus fabric and a vast array of home décor items - probably takes up half the store.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Good question! I haven't been there in a long time and have no plans to go there. Other stores are closer.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Colorado knits said:


> These aren't immaculate conceptions (as if I ever believed that possible) so why does no one mention the men who got these women pregnant? It takes two people to create a baby yet the woman receives all the blame for an unwanted pregnancy.
> 
> Sad, sad.


You are absolutely right. Men step up and do the right thing lots of times - but as you know, not always because they can deny, deny, deny. Or leave. They don't bear the burden that women do, obviously. That is why (at the risk of committing an ad hominem attack) I don't believe men should be in charge of deciding anything about abortion. Observe their track record historically and more recently, in displaying their woefully ignorant, hateful beliefs about women's bodies, rape, pregnancy, ad nauseum. Nor should they be able to override a woman's decision based on their "rights" as a father. The woman's stake in her own body trumps his "rights" hands down.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I would invite you to examine the record of Congress, where effectively NOTHING is happening.
> 
> Let me explain regarding abortion.
> 
> ...


You conveniently left out the fact that it was the democrats who legislated the aca, which requires people through NO CHOICE of their own, to support something that is so repugnant and does not allow them to practice their religious beliefs! THAT is a blatent violation of the 1st Amendment!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You conveniently left out the fact that it was the democrats who legislated the aca, which requires people through NO CHOICE of their own, to support something that is so repugnant and does not allow them to practice their religious beliefs! THAT is a blatent violation of the 1st Amendment!


Neb - if there are problems with ACA - it is because the republicans forced on the Democrats "concessions" to get the program passed. So if you think ACA stinks, blame your comrades, not mine.


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## illusionsbydonna (Mar 24, 2012)

I was just in a local Hobby Lobby a few days ago and there was no indication that they were discontinuing anything. Just a small bit of clearance in the normal clearance area.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> If they die of those things, it is in far, far fewer numbers. Please don't fall into the trap of believing the pro-life propaganda. If you insist on make this claim, please justify your position based on FACT. By that I mean look up the number of women who died prior to Roe vs. Wade and compare them to the number who suffer complications of abortion today. No fair using pro-life or pro-choice figures.
> 
> Also, please refrain from judgments about whether women are to be condemned because they "made the mistake" of getting pregnant. Who appointed you the arbiter of other women's morals regarding sex?


My "claim" stands! It is true that people still die from having abortions! I made no claim about numbers. I simply stated fact! If you want to know how many, you look it up! I was making the point that people still die! I spoke truth! And I'm not the one making judgments about "mistakes". I was responding and quoting someone else! She said it was a mistake! I just asked for clarification!


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

My "claim" stands! It is true that people still die from having abortions! I made no claim about numbers. I simply stated fact! If you want to know how many, you look it up!

Here's one for you, KFN: More women die of complications during pregnancy than from legal abortions. Look it up if you don't believe me--


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

maysmom said:


> My "claim" stands! It is true that people still die from having abortions! I made no claim about numbers. I simply stated fact! If you want to know how many, you look it up!
> 
> Here's one for you, KFN: More women die of complications during pregnancy than from legal abortions. Look it up if you don't believe me--


Ha Ha Neb. Looks like the point is going to go to May's Mom. One more debating round, Ladies, and then we add up the score.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Colorado knits said:


> These aren't immaculate conceptions (as if I ever believed that possible) so why does no one mention the men who got these women pregnant? It takes two people to create a baby yet the woman receives all the blame for an unwanted pregnancy.
> 
> Oh yeah, the dime between the knees. I forgot that.
> 
> Sad, sad.


What does this have to do with the questions I asked? Oh, yeah! I wasn't even asking you! I was questioning the veracity of the statement. Your response doesn't address that!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Neb - if there are problems with ACA - it is because the republicans forced on the Democrats "concessions" to get the program passed. So if you think ACA stinks, blame your comrades, not mine.


WHAT?!? The legislators didn't even get a chance to READ it! Remember...Pelosi said you have to pass it to find out whats in it! So explain; "the republicans forced on the Democrats "concessions" to get the program passed"!


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## illusionsbydonna (Mar 24, 2012)

DGreen said:


> For those of you who support Hobby Lobby's stand on birth control, you might want to know more about their ACTUAL practices, which are in direct conflict with their stated beliefs. A huge amount of their merchandise is purchased from China, at pennies on the dollar, allowing them to make excellent profits on Chinese labor. So it seems Hobby Lobby is fine with forced abortion and mandatory contraception when it benefits their bottom line but not for American women. I find this somewhat hypocritical. I won't shop there.


I see people on here all.. the.. time.. bragging about buying needles from China and yarn from companies like ICE which I think is in Turkey.. So any concern about where Hobby Lobby's yarn is manufactured is kind of a moot point..


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

maysmom said:


> My "claim" stands! It is true that people still die from having abortions! I made no claim about numbers. I simply stated fact! If you want to know how many, you look it up!
> 
> Here's one for you, KFN: More women die of complications during pregnancy than from legal abortions. Look it up if you don't believe me--


Read it again! I said nothing about that! My statement stands!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Ha Ha Neb. Looks like the point is going to go to May's Mom. One more debating round, Ladies, and then we add up the score.


Who are the judges?


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What does this have to do with the questions I asked? Oh, yeah! I wasn't even asking you! I was questioning the veracity of the statement. Your response doesn't address that!


Well, Nebraska, you said, "Wow! You personally knew "people", "women" as in plural? Who died from illegal abortions??? And so, what was their mistake, getting pregnant or getting an abortion? ...."

I was responding to the remark that women made a mistake getting pregnant. It takes two people. STOP blaming just the woman.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

At a job long ago, I worked with a real chauvinist. Serious chauvinist. He was talking about a friend's daughter. He said, "Then she went and got herself pregnant."

I replied, "I bet she didn't."

He just sat there for a few minutes trying to figure it out.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Colorado knits said:


> Well, Nebraska, you said, "Wow! You personally knew "people", "women" as in plural? Who died from illegal abortions??? And so, what was their mistake, getting pregnant or getting an abortion? ...."
> 
> I was responding to the remark that women made a mistake getting pregnant. It takes two people. STOP blaming just the woman.


SHE said they made a mistake! I was quoting HER! Read it again!


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> SHE said they made a mistake! I was quoting HER! Read it again!


OK, but I stick by my statements about it taking two people and we should not blame just the females.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Colorado knits said:


> At a job long ago, I worked with a real chauvinist. Serious chauvinist. He was talking about a friend's daughter. He said, "Then she went and got herself pregnant."
> 
> I replied, "I bet she didn't."
> 
> He just sat there for a few minutes trying to figure it out.


 :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Colorado knits said:


> OK, but I stick by my statements about it taking two people and we should not blame just the females.


"I" didn't "blame" anybody!!!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You conveniently left out the fact that it was the democrats who legislated the aca, which requires people through NO CHOICE of their own, to support something that is so repugnant and does not allow them to practice their religious beliefs! THAT is a blatent violation of the 1st Amendment!


Nothing in the ACA prevents you from practicing your religious beliefs or forces you to have an abortion. "Paying" for abortions in this instance doesn't make you a participant any more than "paying" for a liver transplant implies you approve of the alcoholism that may have caused the liver failure. I'm sure your god will understand and won't hold you accountable because he knows your heart. The thing is, without making abortion illegal entirely, there is no realistic way to separate out your dollars from everyone else's. So what you really want, if you would only admit it, is to make abortion illegal. Which would be a violation of other people's freedom from religion. Like mine. Or maybe you just hate the idea of everyone having access to health care. Dunno.

I agree it is a very emotional and difficult question, but abortion remains legal. Funny, I don't hear any of you religious people screaming about war or executing criminals, both of which take lives. If killing is always wrong, then you are being inconsistent and your morality is relative to the situation as YOU see it.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Nothing in the ACA prevents you from practicing your religious beliefs or forces you to have an abortion. "Paying" for abortions in this instance doesn't make you a participant any more than "paying" for a liver transplant implies you approve of the alcoholism that may have caused the liver failure. I'm sure your god will understand and won't hold you accountable because he knows your heart. The thing is, without making abortion illegal entirely, there is no realistic way to separate out your dollars from everyone else's. So what you really want, if you would only admit it, is to make abortion illegal. Which would be a violation of other people's freedom from religion. Like mine. Or maybe you just hate the idea of everyone having access to health care. Dunno.
> 
> I agree it is a very emotional and difficult question, but abortion remains legal. Funny, I don't hear any of you religious people screaming about war or executing criminals, both of which take lives. If killing is always wrong, then you are being inconsistent and your morality is relative to the situation as YOU see it.


Paying for abortion IS providing and supporting abortion! You say there's no way to separate my tax dollars from others? I've got an idea! If you want an abortion, YOU pay for it! You also say making abortion illegal would "be a violation of other people's freedom from religion". Here's the thing...you don't have the right of "freedom from religion"! Its a lie! Nowhere in the constitution does it say anything about freedom from religion OR separation of church and state. It DOES say; "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...". All that means is that congress cannot pass a law that establishes an official religion AND that congress can pass no law that prohibits you from practicing your religion. And as to your next point, I do NOT consider abortion to be healthcare! It would be quite a reach to describe it as such. But then, people have been redefining words at a breakneck pace lately. And finally, I would not compare the execution of a murderer to the execution of an innocent baby! As far as war goes...it is the premeditated murder of millions, all for the profit and power of the global elite!


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## whitetail (Feb 19, 2011)

Christian music is offensive, what, not enough cursing in it for you, but listening to music in some of the stores in malls with obscene lyrics and words that make women nothing more than sex objects, that's really fine right? Very sad.


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## whitetail (Feb 19, 2011)

Never truly realized how much hatred there is on here towards Christians.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

whitetail said:


> Never truly realized how much hatred there is on here towards Christians.


Huh?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Paying for abortion IS providing and supporting abortion! You say there's no way to separate my tax dollars from others? I've got an idea! If you want an abortion, YOU pay for it! You also say making abortion illegal would "be a violation of other people's freedom from religion". Here's the thing...you don't have the right of "freedom from religion"! Its a lie! Nowhere in the constitution does it say anything about freedom from religion OR separation of church and state. It DOES say; "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...". All that means is that congress cannot pass a law that establishes an official religion AND that congress can pass no law that prohibits you from practicing your religion. And as to your next point, I do NOT consider abortion to be healthcare! It would be quite a reach to describe it as such. But then, people have been redefining words at a breakneck pace lately. And finally, I would not compare the execution of a murderer to the execution of an innocent baby! As far as war goes...it is the premeditated murder of millions, all for the profit and power of the global elite!


Not establishing an official religion means I don't have to be subject to your religion in that laws based on ANY religion are forbidden. This protects you, too, you know. You conveniently left out those who do not choose to practice any religion - none can be forced on them - hence, freedom FROM religion. You are still free to practice whatever you want in your home, your church, in your daily life. Just can't be made public policy. The United States are SECULAR. No set of religious beliefs can be imposed on US citizens, but that is what you are promoting.

If killing is always wrong, the reason or justification (or lack thereof) is immaterial. The death penalty should also be outlawed. Where is your moral outrage?

Your personal definition of healthcare is immaterial.

Finally, your taxes certainly pay for war. Where's the protest against that?


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## SometimesaKnitter (Sep 4, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Not establishing an official religion means I don't have to be subject to your religion in that laws based on ANY religion are forbidden. This protects you, too, you know. You conveniently left out those who do not choose to practice any religion - none can be forced on them - hence, freedom FROM religion. You are still free to practice whatever you want in your home, your church, in your daily life. Just can't be made public policy. The United States are SECULAR. No set of religious beliefs can be imposed on US citizens, but that is what you are promoting.
> 
> If killing is always wrong, the reason or justification (or lack thereof) is immaterial. The death penalty should also be outlawed. Where is your moral outrage?
> 
> ...


So you are saying that objecting to killing, as in abortion, is based on religion and as such can't be the law of the land? What about the laws against murder? Are they based on a religion too? Or not? As for killing criminals there is no comparison because they are two different things. One is killing the innocent through no fault of their own, the other is not allowing someone the freedom of life, usually because they have been found guilty of killing someone else. As for war??? What say you just go to the next country that has an evil dictator for a leader and go live there. There are wars because there is evil in this world, or do you think that Hitler should have not been stopped?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Not establishing an official religion means I don't have to be subject to your religion in that laws based on ANY religion are forbidden. This protects you, too, you know. You conveniently left out those who do not choose to practice any religion - none can be forced on them - hence, freedom FROM religion. You are still free to practice whatever you want in your home, your church, in your daily life. Just can't be made public policy. The United States are SECULAR. No set of religious beliefs can be imposed on US citizens, but that is what you are promoting.
> 
> If killing is always wrong, the reason or justification (or lack thereof) is immaterial. The death penalty should also be outlawed. Where is your moral outrage?
> 
> ...


No. Read it again. It says that government cannot establish an official religion and that they can't infringe on anyone's right to exercise THEIR religion. That's ALL it says! You don't get to make it say something it doesn't! And you say that the United States are secular? You need to do some reading! The founding of this nation has its basis in the belief in GOD!!! Have you even read The Declaration of Independence?!? If you'd ever read anything about the founding of this nation you would KNOW that our founding fathers recognized and endorsed our GOD given rights! We were a Christian nation for the majority of our existence. Its only been in recent decades that the atheists have tried to erase GOD from our country! The results of that are very plain to see! So while you don't have to worship GOD or anything else, the government is not to pass ANY law that infringes upon my right to exercise my religion! Period! That's all!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put.



DGreen said:


> I would invite you to examine the record of Congress, where effectively NOTHING is happening.
> 
> Let me explain regarding abortion.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Bravo!



DGreen said:


> If they die of those things, it is in far, far fewer numbers. Please don't fall into the trap of believing the pro-life propaganda. If you insist on make this claim, please justify your position based on FACT. By that I mean look up the number of women who died prior to Roe vs. Wade and compare them to the number who suffer complications of abortion today. No fair using pro-life or pro-choice figures.
> 
> Also, please refrain from judgments about whether women are to be condemned because they "made the mistake" of getting pregnant. Who appointed you the arbiter of other women's morals regarding sex?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

In the olden days, rich people's daughters went to other countries to safely have abortions.



SQM said:


> It is the do-it-yourselfers who died from not having access to legal abortions.
> 
> Ladies, don't you love people who cherish an embryo over viable people? How do these babies fare if the teen is a poverty girl and the boyfriend skipped? Or the married woman who just cannot afford another kid? Or the victim of domestic violence who suffers more when made pregnant by her tormenter? I am all for investing in great reliable birth control. Is HL against that, too?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I've noticed that their parking lots are empty around here.



SQM said:


> Are Hobby Lobbies successful stores? Or can I harbor hope that they can go out of business?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put!



DGreen said:


> Nothing in the ACA prevents you from practicing your religious beliefs or forces you to have an abortion. "Paying" for abortions in this instance doesn't make you a participant any more than "paying" for a liver transplant implies you approve of the alcoholism that may have caused the liver failure. I'm sure your god will understand and won't hold you accountable because he knows your heart. The thing is, without making abortion illegal entirely, there is no realistic way to separate out your dollars from everyone else's. So what you really want, if you would only admit it, is to make abortion illegal. Which would be a violation of other people's freedom from religion. Like mine. Or maybe you just hate the idea of everyone having access to health care. Dunno.
> 
> I agree it is a very emotional and difficult question, but abortion remains legal. Funny, I don't hear any of you religious people screaming about war or executing criminals, both of which take lives. If killing is always wrong, then you are being inconsistent and your morality is relative to the situation as YOU see it.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Not establishing an official religion means I don't have to be subject to your religion in that laws based on ANY religion are forbidden. This protects you, too, you know. You conveniently left out those who do not choose to practice any religion - none can be forced on them - hence, freedom FROM religion. You are still free to practice whatever you want in your home, your church, in your daily life. Just can't be made public policy. The United States are SECULAR. No set of religious beliefs can be imposed on US citizens, but that is what you are promoting.
> 
> If killing is always wrong, the reason or justification (or lack thereof) is immaterial. The death penalty should also be outlawed. Where is your moral outrage?
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I appreciate your perspective. Thank you for taking time to express your point of view.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Read it again! I said nothing about that! My statement stands!


Well, my statement stands. More women die from complications of pregnancy than from abortion. Just what point are you trying to make? So long as women live, they are sure as anything going to die, for any and every reason there is and has ever been.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

We were a Christian nation for the majority of our existence. 

Please show me exactly where in the Constitution it is written that the United States of America is a Christian nation.

I'll wait.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

maysmom said:


> We were a Christian nation for the majority of our existence.
> 
> Please show me exactly where in the Constitution it is written that the United States of America is a Christian nation.
> 
> I'll wait.


Actually the founding fathers were deists - they only believed in a god for creation purposes but felt she had no role in the lives of people. I don't think any of them were affiliated with organized religions. Maybe Helly Lobby should take a cue.


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## Sandrel (Aug 8, 2011)

I don't shop HL for another reason. My SIL [a 40ish, classy,kind, attractive,well spoken woman who knits and sews well. The call went out to work and help set up a new store.She went and WORKED VERY HARD setting up shelves and placed thousands of things on little pegs..It was such hard work!!! She passed the ten key test and all the necessary cash register requirements. They hired all the young kids that she had set up with. Even Those who didn't pass the ten key tests. It upset me .. I have worked in a fabric,yarn store and I know who makes a good employee. I know I am biased but I do feel better for sharing my thoughts ]


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## MJF (Mar 20, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You are absolutely right. Men step up and do the right thing lots of times - but as you know, not always because they can deny, deny, deny. Or leave. They don't bear the burden that women do, obviously. That is why (at the risk of committing an ad hominem attack) I don't believe men should be in charge of deciding anything about abortion. Observe their track record historically and more recently, in displaying their woefully ignorant, hateful beliefs about women's bodies, rape, pregnancy, ad nauseum. Nor should they be able to override a woman's decision based on their "rights" as a father. The woman's stake in her own body trumps his "rights" hands down.


Well said!!


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

I do hope that all of you who are boycotting Hobby Lobby (for whatever reason) have let me know that you will not be shopping at their establishment and why. Otherwise, I'm afraid they won't miss you or even know that you are boycotting them.

The Hobby Lobby here has a very large parking lot and it is always packed. I doubt it is suffering at all. But then, the city I live in is very much Christian oriented from all I have observed since I moved here.

At my daughter's last company, the CEO allowed each employee to take a paid month-long sabbatical as long as they agreed to spend time with their families, spend a week of the sabbatical doing some charitable work and blogged about their time.  Almost all of the employees participated. Definitely a different kind of city I live in now.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

The founding of this nation has its basis in the belief in GOD!!! 



But the founders, and more specifically the framers of the Constitution, included men who had fought a war for independence -- the very war celebrated on the "Glorious Fourth" -- against a country in which church and state were essentially one.

They understood the long history of sectarian bloodshed in Europe that brought many pilgrims to America. They knew the dangers of merging government, which was designed to protect individual rights, with religion, which as Jefferson argued, was a matter of individual conscience.

And that is why the U.S. Constitution reads as it does.

The supreme law of the land, written in the summer of 1787, includes no references to religion -- including in the presidential oath of office -- until the conclusion of Article VI, after all that dull stuff about debts and treaties: "No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." (There is a pro forma "Year of the Lord" reference in the date at the Constitution's conclusion.)

Original intent? "No religious Test" seems pretty clear cut.

The primacy of a secular state was solidified when the First Amendment was included in the Bill of Rights. According to Purdue history professor Frank Lambert, that "introduced the radical notion that the state had no voice concerning matters of conscience."

Beyond that, the first House of Representatives, while debating the First Amendment, specifically rejected a Senate proposal calling for the establishment of Christianity as an official religion. As Lambert concludes, "There would be no Church of the United States. Nor would America represent itself as a Christian Republic."

The actions of the first presidents, founders of the first rank, confirmed this "original intent:"

-- In 1790, President George Washington wrote to America's first synagogue, in Rhode Island, that "all possess alike liberty of conscience" and that "toleration" was an "inherent national gift," not the government's to dole out or take away

-- In 1797, with President John Adams in office, the Senate unanimously approved one of America's earliest foreign treaties, which emphatically stated (Article 11): "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen (Muslims) ..." 

-- In 1802, Jefferson added his famous "wall of separation," implicit in the Constitution until he so described it (and cited in several Supreme Court decisions since).

These are, to borrow an admittedly loaded phrase, "inconvenient truths" to those who proclaim that America is a "Christian Nation." 

The Constitution and the views of these Founding Fathers trump all arguments about references to God in presidential speeches (permitted under the First Amendment), on money (not introduced until the Civil War), the Pledge of Allegiance ("under God" added in 1954) and in the national motto "In God We Trust" (adopted by law in 1956).

And those contentious monuments to the Ten Commandments found around the country and occasionally challenged in court? Many of them were installed as a publicity stunt for Cecile B. DeMille's 1956 Hollywood spectacle, "The Ten Commandments."

So who are you going to believe? Thomas Jefferson or Hollywood? On second thought: Don't answer.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Sandrel said:


> I don't shop HL for another reason. My SIL [a 40ish, classy,kind, attractive,well spoken woman who knits and sews well. The call went out to work and help set up a new store.She went and WORKED VERY HARD setting up shelves and placed thousands of things on little pegs..It was such hard work!!! She passed the ten key test and all the necessary cash register requirements. They hired all the young kids that she had set up with. Even Those who didn't pass the ten key tests. It upset me .. I have worked in a fabric,yarn store and I know who makes a good employee. I know I am biased but I do feel better for sharing my thoughts ]


An earlier post suggested that Hobby Lobby hires a lot of fundamentalist Christians as a matter of policy. Gee, I wonder if that's true? Note - I'm WONDERING, not accusing. Certainly hiring young people instead of mature, experienced help, benefits their bottom line. Just like buying so much of their merchandise from China.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Its only been in recent decades that the atheists have tried to erase GOD from our country! The results of that are very plain to see! So while you don't have to worship GOD or anything else, the government is not to pass ANY law that infringes upon my right to exercise my religion! Period! That's all!


Pretty bold statement, there. Athiests trying to erase god from our country? You're going to have to defend that statement with some evidence and fact. Examples and specifics, please. Your opinion does not qualify as fact.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's in their minds, of course. Our nation was founded as one where any, all and no religious beliefs are welcome.



maysmom said:


> We were a Christian nation for the majority of our existence.
> 
> Please show me exactly where in the Constitution it is written that the United States of America is a Christian nation.
> 
> I'll wait.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> Actually the founding fathers were deists - they only believed in a god for creation purposes but felt she had no role in the lives of people. I don't think any of them were affiliated with organized religions. Maybe Helly Lobby should take a cue.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sorry to hear Hobby Lobby would choose age discrimination (at 40???) over hiring an able, hard-working employee. I hope your SIL does much better. We know who lost on this one.

Another reason not to shop there.



Sandrel said:


> I don't shop HL for another reason. My SIL [a 40ish, classy,kind, attractive,well spoken woman who knits and sews well. The call went out to work and help set up a new store.She went and WORKED VERY HARD setting up shelves and placed thousands of things on little pegs..It was such hard work!!! She passed the ten key test and all the necessary cash register requirements. They hired all the young kids that she had set up with. Even Those who didn't pass the ten key tests. It upset me .. I have worked in a fabric,yarn store and I know who makes a good employee. I know I am biased but I do feel better for sharing my thoughts ]


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Your daughter's company sounds like one who encourages growth in their employees with their money. Bravo!

HL less popular here. Hang in there and keep writing.



peachy51 said:


> I do hope that all of you who are boycotting Hobby Lobby (for whatever reason) have let me know that you will not be shopping at their establishment and why. Otherwise, I'm afraid they won't miss you or even know that you are boycotting them.
> 
> The Hobby Lobby here has a very large parking lot and it is always packed. I doubt it is suffering at all. But then, the city I live in is very much Christian oriented from all I have observed since I moved here.
> 
> At my daughter's last company, the CEO allowed each employee to take a paid month-long sabbatical as long as they agreed to spend time with their families, spend a week of the sabbatical doing some charitable work and blogged about their time. Almost all of the employees participated. Definitely a different kind of city I live in now.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put! Many have tried on this one, but you've done it.



DGreen said:


> The founding of this nation has its basis in the belief in GOD!!!
> 
> But the founders, and more specifically the framers of the Constitution, included men who had fought a war for independence -- the very war celebrated on the "Glorious Fourth" -- against a country in which church and state were essentially one.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

whitetail said:


> Never truly realized how much hatred there is on here towards Christians.


What makes you think that?

"I disagree with you" does not equal "I hate you."


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

maysmom said:


> We were a Christian nation for the majority of our existence.
> 
> Please show me exactly where in the Constitution it is written that the United States of America is a Christian nation.
> 
> I'll wait.


I've already SAID that the Constitution states that there shall be no established religion and that congress shall make no law that infringes upon the rights of the people to exercise their religion. Now, you don't have to look very far to see that our nation was founded on Christian principles and was in fact a Christian nation. Start in the Capitol building. It is full of Christian and biblical symbolism. Did you know that church services were held in the Capitol building for many years? Even Jefferson attended church services there. How does that fit in with separation of church and state? Did you know that the U.S. Congress authorized the first bible printed in the United States AND that they recommended that it be used in the SCHOOLS?!? Watch this video about the symbolism in the Capitol building and then tell me that our founding fathers did not create a foundation for a Christian nation. Yes! Our founding fathers wanted everyone to have the freedom to worship as they please! That is why they gave us that! But you cannot deny that we were "One Nation Under GOD"!!!


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## SuzyinTX (Sep 15, 2013)

Personally, I don't believe that abortion is the right thing to do, in general, but this forum is not going to change anyone's opinion on the subject, and I doubt it was started for a political stage for everyone to vent their belief on these kinds of issues. If you don't support Hobby Lobby, fine. If you do, fine. Can we move on to more "crafty" topics, as no one is going to change their minds based on someone else's statements.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Actually the founding fathers were deists - they only believed in a god for creation purposes but felt she had no role in the lives of people. I don't think any of them were affiliated with organized religions. Maybe Helly Lobby should take a cue.


I have NO idea where you got that! Absolutely NOT true!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> The founding of this nation has its basis in the belief in GOD!!!
> 
> But the founders, and more specifically the framers of the Constitution, included men who had fought a war for independence -- the very war celebrated on the "Glorious Fourth" -- against a country in which church and state were essentially one.
> 
> ...


Until the formation of The United States of America, government was NEVER designed to protect the rights of the people! It was to GOVERN the people! The war was not just about the freedom to worship as you choose. It was for all freedoms, the freedom to own property, the freedom to choose your own destiny, and the freedom to keep the fruits of your labor were very high on the list!

You stated that the year of our Lord was pro forma? Really? Because you say so? Did you know that the first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay was quoted as saying that we should only elect Christians to public office? Now, I don't agree with him but it goes to show the thinking at that time! Our founding fathers were for the most part Christians. In fact, many of the signers of the Constitution were ministers! They wanted a FREE nation where government would not DICTATE to them! They must be rolling over in their graves NOW!!! Watch this video and tell me our founding father's were not Christians and espoused separation of church and state!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I've already SAID that the Constitution states that there shall be no established religion and that congress shall make no law that infringes upon the rights of the people to exercise their religion. Now, you don't have to look very far to see that our nation was founded on Christian principles and was in fact a Christian nation. Start in the Capitol building. It is full of Christian and biblical symbolism. Did you know that church services were held in the Capitol building for many years? Even Jefferson attended church services there. How does that fit in with separation of church and state? Did you know that the U.S. Congress authorized the first bible printed in the United States AND that they recommended that it be used in the SCHOOLS?!? Watch this video about the symbolism in the Capitol building and then tell me that our founding fathers did not create a foundation for a Christian nation. Yes! Our founding fathers wanted everyone to have the freedom to worship as they please! That is why they gave us that! But you cannot deny that we were "One Nation Under GOD"!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

SuzyinTX said:


> Personally, I don't believe that abortion is the right thing to do, in general, but this forum is not going to change anyone's opinion on the subject, and I doubt it was started for a political stage for everyone to vent their belief on these kinds of issues. If you don't support Hobby Lobby, fine. If you do, fine. Can we move on to more "crafty" topics, as no one is going to change their minds based on someone else's statements.


Suz - you miss the point. We love the debate. You can excuse yourself from this dinner table if it does not suit you.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Since Christianity is derived from Judaism and Jesus was Jewish, I hereby declare the United States a Jewish Country. Mazel Tov!!!!!


I SAID that The United States of America was "founded" as a Christian nation. It is no more!!! If you want to called it a Jewish nation, go ahead. But I think perhaps that satan has other plans!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Until the formation of The United States of America, government was NEVER designed to protect the rights of the people! It was to GOVERN the people! The war was not just about the freedom to worship as you choose. It was for all freedoms, the freedom to own property, the freedom to choose your own destiny, and the freedom to keep the fruits of your labor were very high on the list!
> 
> You stated that the year of our Lord was pro forma? Really? Because you say so? Did you know that the first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay was quoted as saying that we should only elect Christians to public office? Now, I don't agree with him but it goes to show the thinking at that time! Our founding fathers were for the most part Christians. In fact, many of the signers of the Constitution were ministers! They wanted a FREE nation where government would not DICTATE to them! They must be rolling over in their graves NOW!!! Watch this video and tell me our founding father's were not Christians and espoused separation of church and state!
> 
> ...


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Let me amend my statement after re-reading your post. You did NOT say our government wasn't designed to protect our rights. I was in error on that one.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Put together and written by John Bowen - a professor of RELIGION. This is not independent research - it's his highly selective statement of belief. Christian artwork proves NOTHING except that the artist was a believer. How about I refer you to a youtube video that proves dogs have souls?
> 
> "In the Year of our Lord" is hardly evidence of a belief. Rather, a common (somewhat archaic) way of expressing a date. It has no relevance or meaning here.
> 
> I'm astonished that you believe our government was not designed to protect the rights of the people. THE BILL OF RIGHTS was intended to limit the power of government as it relates to basic human rights. This, in response to massive historical examples of religious states oppressing people in the name of god.


Read it again! I SAID: "Until the formation of The United States of America, government was never designed to protect the rights of the people! It was to GOVERN the people!"!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Let me amend my statement after re-reading your post. You did NOT say our government wasn't designed to protect our rights. I was in error on that one.


Just saw this.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I SAID that The United States of America was "founded" as a Christian nation. It is no more!!! If you want to called it a Jewish nation, go ahead. But I think perhaps that satan has other plans!


There is no satan. Satan was invented to keep people in line with the church.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Colorado knits said:


> There is no satan. Satan was invented to keep people in line with the church.


Ok then, lucifer!


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Ok then, lucifer!


Different word, same thing -- does not exist. Just because a book says it, does not make it true.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I SAID that The United States of America was "founded" as a Christian nation. It is no more!!! If you want to called it a Jewish nation, go ahead. But I think perhaps that satan has other plans!


Satan???????

The best that fantasy creature could do is misplace your row counter.

Where can I read that the US was founded as a Christian Nation? Certainly they are the majority religion but that should end soon.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Thanks for all the info, DG. Sorry it won't sink into some people's thought processes. Oh well, knit on!!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Ladies, we seem to be talking past one another here. There is not doubt that Christianity has always been a major influence in this country. I'll even go so far as to concede that Christian beliefs HELPED inform the morals and values of our early government. This remains true today - after all, most reasonable people agree the majority of the time about what is right or moral. This is nothing new. It's when we get down to a few "hot" issues that we have disagreement. I truly believe the framers of the constitution wanted to avoid anything that resembled state-sponsored religion, in spite of, not as a result of, whatever their personal beliefs may have been. They recognized the dangers inherent in state-sponsored religion. Thomas Jefferson, one of the greatest minds of his time, spoke eloquently against this. One of my favorite quotes is, "In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to Liberty." The challenge is now and has always been, how to fairly balance our laws with respect to one person's belief against the legitimate role of government or with an opposing or different belief. I believe that legislation must carefully avoid catering to any one belief system - and realistically, today that would be Christian belief since Christians are in the majority. Always have been; perhaps that is the genesis of the belief that this is a Christian nation. However, that majority does NOT define the whole.

It's a silly argument - except when defining the United States as a "Christian nation" is used to justify passing laws that favor the beliefs of the Christian over other beliefs. Or that Christians have a right to "run the show." Christians would be the first to protest any law that promoted Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim beliefs over them. I would be right there with you. That's why laws must be scrupulously neutral. Favoring one religion over another would invariably be wrong. Protecting one religion over another is invariably wrong and the founding fathers knew this.

As for "paying" for something that violates your beliefs, that's a very tough question. But there are ENDLESS ways taxpayers are required to pay for things that violate their sincerely held beliefs. I pay for Naval activities with my tax dollars - but the Navy is engaged in ongoing testing that kills marine mammals. I pay taxes to incarcerate criminals in Arizona, where they are treated shamefully and private companies routinely violate basic human rights and make a handy profit doing so. Can't get out of that taxation. I pay taxes for our military - where women who suffer sexual violence are often required to "report" the incident to the very person who committed the rape. Then, there's the killing part, the drones, and on and on. I pay taxes to execute criminals, yet I vehemently oppose capital punishment. And that's just me - lots of people pay taxes for things they find reprehensible on account of their beliefs. I understand you who put these objections in a different category than abortion, so stop screaming at me about that. I get it. We don't agree about the "murdering babies" part. But I'm not crazy or evil. 

The thing is, repeating "sound bites" about the issue of abortion really doesn't help. I'm not necessarily trying to change anybody - I hope to challenge others to use critical thinking and perhaps develop a broader understanding of others' views.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Ladies, we seem to be talking past one another here. There is not doubt that Christianity has always been a major influence in this country. I'll even go so far as to concede that Christian beliefs HELPED inform the morals and values of our early government. This remains true today - after all, most reasonable people agree the majority of the time about what is right or moral. This is nothing new. It's when we get down to a few "hot" issues that we have disagreement. I truly believe the framers of the constitution wanted to avoid anything that resembled state-sponsored religion, in spite of, not as a result of, whatever their personal beliefs may have been. They recognized the dangers inherent in state-sponsored religion. Thomas Jefferson, one of the greatest minds of his time, spoke eloquently against this. One of my favorite quotes is, "In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to Liberty." The challenge is now and has always been, how to fairly balance our laws with respect to one person's belief against the legitimate role of government or with an opposing or different belief. I believe that legislation must carefully avoid catering to any one belief system - and realistically, today that would be Christian belief since Christians are in the majority. Always have been; perhaps that is the genesis of the belief that this is a Christian nation. However, that majority does NOT define the whole.
> 
> It's a silly argument - except when defining the United States as a "Christian nation" is used to justify passing laws that favor the beliefs of the Christian over other beliefs. Or that Christians have a right to "run the show." Christians would be the first to protest any law that promoted Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim beliefs over them. I would be right there with you. That's why laws must be scrupulously neutral. Favoring one religion over another would invariably be wrong. Protecting one religion over another is invariably wrong and the founding fathers knew this.
> 
> ...


You speak of being forced to pay for what you believe to be atrocities. If you go along and not speak out, you become complicit! As a nation, we are devolving because the people will not stand up and say "This is wrong!". We are told that we must go along because the majority want it. But what if that isn't true? What if the majority are silent?!? We must no longer be silent! We must make ourselves heard because our country is turning into something we don't recognize. Our country no longer enters wars as defenders. We are the offenders. We are the conquerors and yet we, the people sit back and say nothing! We torture our enemies and enslave our prison populations. We kill innocent women and children and accept any and all perversions. This is what we have become because we say nothing! I speak out because if I don't, I am complicit!!!


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You speak of being forced to pay for what you believe to be atrocities. If you go along and not speak out, you become complicit! As a nation, we are devolving because the people will not stand up and say "This is wrong!". We are told that we must go along because the majority want it. But what if that isn't true? What if the majority are silent?!? We must no longer be silent! We must make ourselves heard because our country is turning into something we don't recognize. Our country no longer enters wars as defenders. We are the offenders. We are the conquerors and yet we, the people sit back and say nothing! We torture our enemies and enslave our prison populations. We kill innocent women and children and accept any and all perversions. This is what we have become because we say nothing! I speak out because if I don't, I am complicit!!!


Yah, Nebraska, we agree on a few things.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Ladies, we seem to be talking past one another here. There is not doubt that Christianity has always been a major influence in this country. I'll even go so far as to concede that Christian beliefs HELPED inform the morals and values of our early government. This remains true today - after all, most reasonable people agree the majority of the time about what is right or moral. This is nothing new. It's when we get down to a few "hot" issues that we have disagreement. I truly believe the framers of the constitution wanted to avoid anything that resembled state-sponsored religion, in spite of, not as a result of, whatever their personal beliefs may have been. They recognized the dangers inherent in state-sponsored religion. Thomas Jefferson, one of the greatest minds of his time, spoke eloquently against this. One of my favorite quotes is, "In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to Liberty." The challenge is now and has always been, how to fairly balance our laws with respect to one person's belief against the legitimate role of government or with an opposing or different belief. I believe that legislation must carefully avoid catering to any one belief system - and realistically, today that would be Christian belief since Christians are in the majority. Always have been; perhaps that is the genesis of the belief that this is a Christian nation. However, that majority does NOT define the whole.
> 
> It's a silly argument - except when defining the United States as a "Christian nation" is used to justify passing laws that favor the beliefs of the Christian over other beliefs. Or that Christians have a right to "run the show." Christians would be the first to protest any law that promoted Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim beliefs over them. I would be right there with you. That's why laws must be scrupulously neutral. Favoring one religion over another would invariably be wrong. Protecting one religion over another is invariably wrong and the founding fathers knew this.
> 
> ...


Agree with your entire post.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You speak of being forced to pay for what you believe to be atrocities. If you go along and not speak out, you become complicit! As a nation, we are devolving because the people will not stand up and say "This is wrong!". We are told that we must go along because the majority want it. But what if that isn't true? What if the majority are silent?!? We must no longer be silent! We must make ourselves heard because our country is turning into something we don't recognize. Our country no longer enters wars as defenders. We are the offenders. We are the conquerors and yet we, the people sit back and say nothing! We torture our enemies and enslave our prison populations. We kill innocent women and children and accept any and all perversions. This is what we have become because we say nothing! I speak out because if I don't, I am complicit!!!


As a matter of fact, I do speak out - I write my elected representatives about these issues all the time. And I vote, which collectively is the best way to make the changes we want. We are governed by LAW. Who makes the law? Our representatives do, so we need to make them answerable for their actions. And if the majority decides against me, I keep working. Democracy based on our Constitution. Been working pretty well for quite a while.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> As a matter of fact, I do speak out - I write my elected representatives about these issues all the time. And I vote, which collectively is the best way to make the changes we want. We are governed by LAW. Who makes the law? Our representatives do, so we need to make them answerable for their actions. And if the majority decides against me, I keep working. Democracy based on our Constitution. Been working pretty well for quite a while.


But see? It's not working! Our representatives don't represent US! They represent the corporatists (the elite, the 1%, the bankers, the powerful) because THAT'S where the money is! I write my representatives too! But do you know what I get back? A form letter, written up by some intern! I've challenged my representatives (in person) and they don't even know what their letters say! It's all handled by someone else! It's just a form of pacification. The elections have clearly been corrupted! We had the "hanging chads" in one election and the voting machines that changed people's votes right before their very eyes, in another! Even without the vote corruption, it makes no difference who you vote for! The two party system is a false paradigm designed to make you think that you can be part of the winning team! Watch the You Tube video entitled, "The Jones Plantation". It does a good job explaining what's happening to the American people. Both sides work for the SAME people! The SAY different things but they DO the same things! The results are the same; more and more laws that take away our rights and more and more control! We are becoming slaves without our even realizing it! Executive orders effectively allow our presidents to act as dictators. Our Republic is gone!!! I think we should take it back!!!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

You say that "the two party system is a false paradigm." Please put forth a better model. And how do you propose we "take back" our republic? I don't like the current state of politics, either - I'd love to hear a plan for changing it.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You say that "the two party system is a false paradigm." Please put forth a better model. And how do you propose we "take back" our republic? I don't like the current state of politics, either - I'd love to hear a plan for changing it.


Before anything can change, people must WAKE UP and see truth! Nothing changes without awareness! Did you watch the video? It does a very good job explaining the system we are living under! You cannot believe unless you understand. You cannot understand unless you know. You cannot know unless you seek.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

I am always suspicious of the take-back philosophy. Each person has a different view of how far back they want to go back. 

Take back what part? 

I'm all for new legislation, especially no funding from corporations, no lobbyists.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Before anything can change, people must WAKE UP and see truth! Nothing changes without awareness! Did you watch the video? It does a very good job explaining the system we are living under! You cannot believe unless you understand. You cannot understand unless you know. You cannot know unless you seek.


I'm speechless and shocked. I do believe you are serious, KFN, so I simply have no words and don't know where to begin to address the fantasy of that video. Our views of society are staggeringly different. Evidently we do not share the same perception of reality. I don't want to disrespect your beliefs so I won't comment on it any further.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Colorado knits said:


> I am always suspicious of the take-back philosophy. Each person has a different view of how far back they want to go back.
> 
> Take back what part?
> 
> I'm all for new legislation, especially no funding from corporations, no lobbyists.


Colorado, in order to have a full understanding of KFN's position, you need to watch the video.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I'm speechless and shocked. I do believe you are serious, KFN, so I simply have no words and don't know where to begin to address the fantasy of that video. Our views of society are staggeringly different. Evidently we do not share the same perception of reality. I don't want to disrespect your beliefs so I won't comment on it any further.


So, when you watched that, you couldn't see the paradigm of the two party system? Call it what you want but nothing changes! Work for Mr. Smith or Mr. Jones, it's the SAME thing!


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So, when you watched that, you couldn't see the paradigm of the two party system? Call it what you want but nothing changes! Work for Mr. Smith or Mr. Jones, it's the SAME thing!


Actually, I believe the agenda of the person who submitted that video (and other videos) is to eradicate any and all government.

Can you imagine that working?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:



> What makes you think that?
> 
> "I disagree with you" does not equal "I hate you."


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> Since Christianity is derived from Judaism and Jesus was Jewish, I hereby declare the United States a Jewish Country. Mazel Tov!!!!!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I SAID that The United States of America was "founded" as a Christian nation. It is no more!!! If you want to called it a Jewish nation, go ahead. But I think perhaps that satan has other plans!


 :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I tried to look at the video but gave up. Just from the comments, I don't wish to engage knitting in NB at all.



DGreen said:


> I'm speechless and shocked. I do believe you are serious, KFN, so I simply have no words and don't know where to begin to address the fantasy of that video. Our views of society are staggeringly different. Evidently we do not share the same perception of reality. I don't want to disrespect your beliefs so I won't comment on it any further.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Chaos with the nuts in charge? I don't think so. Sounds like Timothy McVeigh or Ted Kazinski.



peachy51 said:


> Actually, I believe the agenda of the person who submitted that video (and other videos) is to eradicate any and all government.
> 
> Can you imagine that working?


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

damemary said:


> Chaos with the nuts in charge? I don't think so. Sounds like Timothy McVeigh or Ted Kazinski.


Exactly!

The way I see it is ... we have to have some form of government of avoid mass chaos ... but we are at the point where we have too much government and too many useless governmental entities.

I realize I am biased (being retired from municipal government), but the bulk of citizen government should be more at the local level where the leaders are closer to the constituents and have better knowledge of their needs and issues.

And we need more rational citizens to manage to show up at the polls and vote. Part of my job was to act as Elections Administrator for our city ... a small city with approximately 26,000 registered voters of which approximately 90% were college educated and well above median income. For the 20 years I ran their elections, the most voter turnout we ever had was approximately 20 to 30%. Now that is just sad


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree 100% with what you said about voting. In my opinion, individual votes are the only thing that counts. No vote? Shut up. You missed your chance.

My mind is not made up on local government. Vast differences in quality.



peachy51 said:


> Exactly!
> 
> The way I see it is ... we have to have some form of government of avoid mass chaos ... but we are at the point where we have too much government and too many useless governmental entities.
> 
> ...


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

peachy51 said:


> Exactly!
> 
> The way I see it is ... we have to have some form of government of avoid mass chaos ... but we are at the point where we have too much government and too many useless governmental entities.
> 
> ...


I agree! We also need more people who are willing to stand for election. The selection we have is pretty poor.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> I agree! We also need more people who are willing to stand for election. The selection we have is pretty poor.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

I would do it myself but I have a bad heart. The stress of dealing with some of the constituents would probably kill me.


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## whitetail (Feb 19, 2011)

I watched the video, I believe the point they were trying to make is, just because someone(politicians to be exact) tell you that he/she is working for you and for your own good doesn't mean that's what's happening and don't just buy into it, it's usually for someone else's good. Love the USA, but government has gotten too big with way too many laws that I'm sure most people are not even aware, including me. More State government, and agree, if you don't vote then don't complain.


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

damemary said:


> I agree 100% with what you said about voting. In my opinion, individual votes are the only thing that counts. No vote? Shut up. You missed your chance.
> 
> My mind is not made up on local government. Vast differences in quality.


A lot of those differences in local government depends on how your city is set up and their city charter. Some cities are divided into wards or districts, so that you only get to vote for the person who is running from your district. In the city I worked, all the councilmembers were "at large" so every citizen was able to vote for or against every candidate on the ballot. And, in essence, every councilmember was every citizen's councilmember.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

whitetail said:


> I watched the video, I believe the point they were trying to make is, just because someone(politicians to be exact) tell you that he/she is working for you and for your own good doesn't mean that's what's happening and don't just buy into it, it's usually for someone else's good. Love the USA, but government has gotten too big with way too many laws that I'm sure most people are not even aware, including me. More State government, and agree, if you don't vote then don't complain.


She-it! More state government????? The worst laws come out of the states, except for Texas's wish to leave the Union. Thankfully the Fed. government has the final say as long as we have the Southern mentality.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm inclined to agree with you. Localities seem to grow radical factions.



SQM said:


> She-it! More state government????? The worst laws come out of the states, except for Texas's wish to leave the Union. Thankfully the Fed. government has the final say as long as we have the Southern mentality.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

peachy51 said:


> Actually, I believe the agenda of the person who submitted that video (and other videos) is to eradicate any and all government.
> 
> Can you imagine that working?


That's not at all what I'm suggesting!!! I'm suggesting that our system has gotten out of control and that our representatives no longer represent US! They represent the "plantation" or corporporate interests, if you may. My point is that FIRST people need to be aware! Then they need to be involved! Do you realize how much of YOUR money goes to these corporations through government contracts and in exchange for their government contracts, they "support" the politicians. It makes no difference whether the republicans are in charge or the democrats! Do you realize that the government provides your money to drug companies for research and development of new drugs and yet, the government doesn't share in the profits or even recoup its investment? You pay, they profit! You're subsidizing billionaires and they're telling you that you have a choice! People need to wake up and realize that the government is taking YOUR money and giving it to billionaires! Do you realize that these billionaires pay little or no taxes because their lobbyists get the politicians to protect their loopholes? Their lobbyists write the tax code and most of the laws too. I'm only saying that its time for people to know what's going on and say "No more"! There's strength in numbers! When millions of people say "no more", they listen! When one person says it, they are "crazy". Do want to keep subsidizing billionaires?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Totally agree with Neb's last statement. She got it right!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

peachy51 said:


> Exactly!
> 
> The way I see it is ... we have to have some form of government of avoid mass chaos ... but we are at the point where we have too much government and too many useless governmental entities.
> 
> ...


How about government of the people, by the people, for the people?!?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I agree 100% with what you said about voting. In my opinion, individual votes are the only thing that counts. No vote? Shut up. You missed your chance.
> 
> My mind is not made up on local government. Vast differences in quality.


What do you want to do about "hanging chads" and voting machines that are programmed to change your vote?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What do you want to do about "hanging chads" and voting machines that are programmed to change your vote?


Lest we forget.

I love Neb today. Want to come up and see me sometime in my canopy?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


But you only get to choose from Mr Johnson and Mr Jones! Watch the video!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Let Florida secede to Cuba? Sorry. I couldn't resist.

I don't disagree with ALL you've said. I just believe in picking my battles. If there is a local problem, I'm all over it.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What do you want to do about "hanging chads" and voting machines that are programmed to change your vote?


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Colorado, in order to have a full understanding of KFN's position, you need to watch the video.


Good grief, DGreen, you are right. I hesitated watching the video - it was far worse than I imagined. Actually, I found it quite disturbing. The background music alone was irritating.

I can see how those who do not read much beyond their own philosophy, religious beliefs, or extreme conservative leanings would be taken in.

I will just say, for now anyway, horsefeathers and claptrap, because, well, my stronger words for ignorance won't help at all.


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

SQM said:


> She-it! More state government????? The worst laws come out of the states, except for Texas's wish to leave the Union. Thankfully the Fed. government has the final say as long as we have the Southern mentality.


And I could say it's the Yankees who are the radicals. What would that accomplish? At least in my state, we have reasonable living costs, no state income tax and comparable sales and property taxes and far much better weather. I had to live in Chicago for 9 years and I have never seen anything so corrupt as the government there. Nice to be back home. 



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> That's not at all what I'm suggesting!!! I'm suggesting that our system has gotten out of control and that our representatives no longer represent US! They represent the "plantation" or corporporate interests, if you may. My point is that FIRST people need to be aware! Then they need to be involved! Do you realize how much of YOUR money goes to these corporations through government contracts and in exchange for their government contracts, they "support" the politicians. It makes no difference whether the republicans are in charge or the democrats! Do you realize that the government provides your money to drug companies for research and development of new drugs and yet, the government doesn't share in the profits or even recoup its investment? You pay, they profit! You're subsidizing billionaires and they're telling you that you have a choice! People need to wake up and realize that the government is taking YOUR money and giving it to billionaires! Do you realize that these billionaires pay little or no taxes because their lobbyists get the politicians to protect their loopholes? Their lobbyists write the tax code and most of the laws too. I'm only saying that its time for people to know what's going on and say "No more"! There's strength in numbers! When millions of people say "no more", they listen! When one person says it, they are "crazy". Do want to keep subsidizing billionaires?


Since you sent this as a "quote reply" to my post, I assume (maybe wrongly) that you are addressing me with all this.

First of all, don't get your panties in a wad ... I did not say or even intimate that that is what YOU were suggesting. I stated that was the agenda of the video poster and all his other videos.

And you don't have to tell me anything about how we are being bilked by the government. During the course of my career, I have been involved in all three levels of our government.

It is far from perfect and there are a lot of areas for improvement. But that is never going to happen until people band together and vote. Of course, as long as there is such a huge gap between the ideals of the citizenry, I think that even if we could fire all of Congress and elect new members, we would still have much of the same as we have now.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Colorado knits said:


> Good grief, DGreen, you are right. I hesitated watching the video - it was far worse than I imagined. Actually, I found it quite disturbing. The background music alone was irritating.
> 
> I can see how those who do not read much beyond their own philosophy, religious beliefs, or extreme conservative leanings would be taken in.
> 
> I will just say, for now anyway, horsefeathers and claptrap, because, well, my stronger words for ignorance won't help at all.


Its SUPPOSED to be disturbing!!! Having your comfortable views turned upside down is always disturbing! But are you going to honestly say that you didn't see the correlation? And, seriously?!? Are you saying that all you noticed was the music?!? If so, watch it again!


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## illusionsbydonna (Mar 24, 2012)

peachy51 said:


> :thumbup: I agree. Anytime a company is not allowed to stand on their principles, they should go out of business. Anyone who doesn't agree with their principles doesn't have to work there or shop there. As for me, I will keep shopping Hobby Lobby. :mrgreen:


 :thumbup: There's more yarn left for us there..


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

peachy51 said:


> Since you sent this as a "quote reply" to my post, I assume (maybe wrongly) that you are addressing me with all this.
> 
> First of all, don't get your panties in a wad ... I did not say or even intimate that that is what YOU were suggesting. I stated that was the agenda of the video poster and all his other videos.
> 
> ...


First of all, the previous poster had said something like, chaos with nuts in charge and you agreed so I was responding to you. Second of all, you say: "the agenda of the video poster and all of his other videos". "I" posted the video! I posted no others! Just the one! And my"agenda" is only to make people THINK!!!


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Its SUPPOSED to be disturbing!!! Having your comfortable views turned upside down is always disturbing! But are you going to honestly say that you didn't see the correlation? And, seriously?!? Are you saying that all you noticed was the music?!? If so, watch it again!


You're a special kind of narrow, aren't you. Nowhere did I say I have comfortable views. Our country has plenty of problems. As far as I'm concerned, the extreme views of the fundamental religious right and the extreme conservatives are huge problems.

Did I say anyplace that the music is all I noticed? NO, I did not; I just said it was irritating.

This video is claptrap. If someone thinks the moon is made of green cheese, you can find a place online to prove your erroneous views.

I proudly am liberal, progressive, Democratic, and a feminist. Why? Because I care about people besides myself. I read and research beyond my own beliefs and philosophies. I don't just read what validates my own philosophy.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Colorado knits said:


> You're a special kind of narrow, aren't you. Nowhere did I say I have comfortable views. Our country has plenty of problems. As far as I'm concerned, the extreme views of the fundamental religious right and the extreme conservatives are huge problems.
> 
> Did I say anyplace that the music is all I noticed? NO, I did not; I just said it was irritating.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Bravo ColoradoKnits! I'm with you all the way.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I just want to say this. Two years ago I was exactly where most of you are, except I lean more towards conservatism. I was disgusted with the republicans but the democrats weren't any better. I received a random e mail full of "crazy sh##". Well for days I couldn't forget that crazy sh##. It really bothered me so I started researching it. All day, everyday for two weeks i researched it. One thing led to another. I never just believe what someone says. I follow link after link until I've exhausted everything or I become convinced by the preponderance of vast amounts of evidence. I rarely believe anything on the main stream media anymore. I used to take it as gospel. Anyway, it turned out that the "crazy sh##" was true. And it led me down the rabbit hole. For two years, I've been going down the rabbit hole, and I cant believe that nearly everything I believed in was a lie (ok, not everything but alot)!When I say something its because I believe it, based on the evidence I've found. I'm not asking anyone to believe me. I'm just asking that you take the risk to find the truth! Your truth may end up in a different place than mine but I doubt it (on most things, anyway). Yes, we will always differ on opinions, but facts are facts!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Colorado knits said:


> You're a special kind of narrow, aren't you. Nowhere did I say I have comfortable views. Our country has plenty of problems. As far as I'm concerned, the extreme views of the fundamental religious right and the extreme conservatives are huge problems.
> 
> Did I say anyplace that the music is all I noticed? NO, I did not; I just said it was irritating.
> 
> ...


You say you care about people besides yourself but apparently only if they are just like you!!! Apparently everyone else is just a huge problem!!!


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## K2P2 knitter (Jan 31, 2013)

I was in Hobby Lobby today and saw very few skeins of Red Heart yarn but I did see Hobby Lobby brand of yarn everywhere and in all weights.


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## whitetail (Feb 19, 2011)

how judgmental is that statement, one cannot be caring about others without being a liberal, etc. I am a Christian and care about all people, how dare you make a statement such as that. Have worked in many food pantries, clothing storefronts, donated time and money and take great offense at that remark. Talk about not being able to think outside the box.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

This is priceless, a young woman who understands,


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

whitetail said:


> how judgmental is that statement, one cannot be caring about others without being a liberal, etc. I am a Christian and care about all people, how dare you make a statement such as that. Have worked in many food pantries, clothing storefronts, donated time and money and take great offense at that remark. Talk about not being able to think outside the box.


*What????*

I never said a conservative could not care about others.

I'm talking about taking away unemployment, educational funds, food stamps, etc. from the really poor, decimating the middle class. That is the ultra conservative mantra.

I think the Tea Party has harmed the Republicans more than anything.

So get over your hyper sensitivity, no offense was meant for those people helping others. By the way, being a Christian does not mean you care about others more than non Christians care.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> This is priceless, a young woman who understands,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I just want to say this. Two years ago I was exactly where most of you are, except I lean more towards conservatism. I was disgusted with the republicans but the democrats weren't any better. I received a random e mail full of "crazy sh##". Well for days I couldn't forget that crazy sh##. It really bothered me so I started researching it. All day, everyday for two weeks i researched it. One thing led to another. I never just believe what someone says. I follow link after link until I've exhausted everything or I become convinced by the preponderance of vast amounts of evidence. I rarely believe anything on the main stream media anymore. I used to take it as gospel. Anyway, it turned out that the "crazy sh##" was true. And it led me down the rabbit hole. For two years, I've been going down the rabbit hole, and I cant believe that nearly everything I believed in was a lie (ok, not everything but alot)!When I say something its because I believe it, based on the evidence I've found. I'm not asking anyone to believe me. I'm just asking that you take the risk to find the truth! Your truth may end up in a different place than mine but I doubt it (on most things, anyway). Yes, we will always differ on opinions, but facts are facts! You say you care about people besides yourself but apparently only if they are just like you!!! Apparently everyone else is just a huge problem!!!


Facts are facts, huh. Your idea of facts does not always touch reality. And I'm sure you think the same of me. Touche.

I have taken the time to read, research and find facts. I have different conclusions than you do.

Where and why would you think I only care only about people if they are like me? I've said nothing to indicate that. I care about people who have nothing, people who are any religion or no religion, people who have no medical insurance, people who are dying from horrible diseases; people in other countries, especially war-torn countries; people all over the world with inadequate food supplies. Most of those people are nothing like I am. Yes I care about people I don't know and will never know and who have nothing in common with me.


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## whitetail (Feb 19, 2011)

I never said being a Christian made me more caring, you stated you were a liberal and the reason why, being a liberal doesn't make one more caring than anyone else either.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Colorado knits said:


> Facts are facts, huh. Your idea of facts does not always touch reality. And I'm sure you think the same of me. Touche.
> 
> I have taken the time to read, research and find facts. I have different conclusions than you do.
> 
> Where and why would you think I only care only about people if they are like me? I've said nothing to indicate that. I care about people who have nothing, people who are any religion or no religion, people who have no medical insurance, people who are dying from horrible diseases; people in other countries, especially war-torn countries; people all over the world with inadequate food supplies. Most of those people are nothing like I am. Yes I care about people I don't know and will never know and who have nothing in common with me.


Why would I think that? Your words! You claimed that the fundamental, religious right and extreme conservatives are a huge problem. But then you implied that liberal, progressive, democrat feminists like yourself care about people! Obviously you don't care about everyone, certainly not anyone on the right! You call them extremists because you don't agree with them. You claim to care about all of these people who are suffering and dying, but what if they're part of the fundamental religious right? Then you dont? Then they are a huge problem?!? So that's why I believe you only care about people who are like you!


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Why would I think that? Your words! You claimed that the fundamental, religious right and extreme conservatives are a huge problem. But then you implied that liberal, progressive, democrat feminists like yourself care about people! Obviously you don't care about everyone, certainly not anyone on the right! You call them extremists because you don't agree with them. You claim to care about all of these people who are suffering and dying, but what if they're part of the fundamental religious right? Then you dont? Then they are a huge problem?!? So that's why I believe you only care about people who are like you!


Quite the leap, Nebraska, quite the leap. Yes, I care about people on the right who may be suffering. I care when people, whoever they are, are suffering or have the problems I listed earlier.

I talk about the conservatives because the political conservatives are cutting programs to help those who need help the most.

Nighty, night. Sleep tight.


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## Colorado knits (Jul 6, 2011)

whitetail said:


> I never said being a Christian made me more caring, you stated you were a liberal and the reason why, being a liberal doesn't make one more caring than anyone else either.


I was responding to YOUR remark: "I am a Christian and care about all people."

I didn't think being a Christian made a person more caring than a non Christian.

Conservatives in Congress, not you as an individual, show little concern for those in need.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I just want to say this. Two years ago I was exactly where most of you are, except I lean more towards conservatism. I was disgusted with the republicans but the democrats weren't any better. I received a random e mail full of "crazy sh##". Well for days I couldn't forget that crazy sh##. It really bothered me so I started researching it. All day, everyday for two weeks i researched it. One thing led to another. I never just believe what someone says. I follow link after link until I've exhausted everything or I become convinced by the preponderance of vast amounts of evidence. I rarely believe anything on the main stream media anymore. I used to take it as gospel. Anyway, it turned out that the "crazy sh##" was true. And it led me down the rabbit hole. For two years, I've been going down the rabbit hole, and I cant believe that nearly everything I believed in was a lie (ok, not everything but alot)!When I say something its because I believe it, based on the evidence I've found. I'm not asking anyone to believe me. I'm just asking that you take the risk to find the truth! Your truth may end up in a different place than mine but I doubt it (on most things, anyway). Yes, we will always differ on opinions, but facts are facts!


Yes, Nebraska, facts are facts. I can't help wondering what you were researching and what sources you were looking at. I viewed the video you recommended but could not help noticing the other "If you liked this...." videos displayed alongside the one I was watching. The list was comprised of videos espousing every kind of conspiracy theory and outlandish claim imaginable. These included videos claiming to "prove" that Michelle Obama is really a male and that our President is gay. Others claim Obama is the "Antichrist." I particularly liked the one that tries to convince us that we are all going to be micro-chipped with a device laced with cyanide - to be remotely released if we "disobey." How about the 30,000 guillotines purchased by the government? Another claims that anyone who doesn't sign up for insurance (ACA) will be sent to a FEMA concentration camp. I could go on and on. Is THAT your research? I certainly hope not! To give you every benefit of the doubt, please cite sources for your claims. If you want people to look and listen, that would be a reasonable thing to do, since you don't otherwise support your statements with any evidence. Please don't take this as dismissing your claims - that is not what I intend to do. People WILL listen if you give them a reason to listen backed up by facts. Americans are smart. Well, most of them, anyway.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> That's not at all what I'm suggesting!!! I'm suggesting that our system has gotten out of control and that our representatives no longer represent US! They represent the "plantation" or corporporate interests, if you may. My point is that FIRST people need to be aware! Then they need to be involved! Do you realize how much of YOUR money goes to these corporations through government contracts and in exchange for their government contracts, they "support" the politicians. It makes no difference whether the republicans are in charge or the democrats! Do you realize that the government provides your money to drug companies for research and development of new drugs and yet, the government doesn't share in the profits or even recoup its investment? You pay, they profit! You're subsidizing billionaires and they're telling you that you have a choice! People need to wake up and realize that the government is taking YOUR money and giving it to billionaires! Do you realize that these billionaires pay little or no taxes because their lobbyists get the politicians to protect their loopholes? Their lobbyists write the tax code and most of the laws too. I'm only saying that its time for people to know what's going on and say "No more"! There's strength in numbers! When millions of people say "no more", they listen! When one person says it, they are "crazy". Do want to keep subsidizing billionaires?


I agree with most of what you are saying here - except that you fail to propose any specific suggestions or remedies. "Strength in numbers" is meaningless unless those multitudes have a plan. Mine is to become active in the upcoming elections - this is the democratic process and we need to talk at the ballot box - in big numbers. We can't outspend the Koch brothers of the world so we have to outsmart them.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Colorado knits said:


> Good grief, DGreen, you are right. I hesitated watching the video - it was far worse than I imagined. Actually, I found it quite disturbing. The background music alone was irritating.
> 
> I can see how those who do not read much beyond their own philosophy, religious beliefs, or extreme conservative leanings would be taken in.
> 
> I will just say, for now anyway, horsefeathers and claptrap, because, well, my stronger words for ignorance won't help at all.


The problem I have with that video and "tea party" memes in general is that whoever generates such nonsense carefully crafts JUST ENOUGH "truth" to make some people say, "Yeah, yeah!!." Think a little below the surface and their arguments just don't hold up. There are so many "issues" that are USED to incite passion among the less critical thinkers out there and yes, I'm referring to birthers, anti-vacciners, climate-change deniers, creationists, extreme Christian zealots, and people who think illegal immigrants collect social security en masse. I use Facebook to keep up with my family, but I am constantly assaulted with memes that ask me to "like" if I think the Pledge of Allegiance should be said every day in schools, that Christians are being persecuted, that illegal immigration is killing the American Dream, that taxes are too high, that we all need more guns. JUST ENOUGH patriotism and pandering to irrational prejudice to swing the unthinking into buying into the (mostly) conservative mindset. Insidious.


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## Tokyoal (Mar 19, 2014)

This is my first time posting here and I hate to be a downer. Hobby Lobby has been in the news lately, stating that they don't stock decorations for Jewish holidays since they don't want to do business with "those" people. I don't know if there are any Jewish women who knit or crochet on this forum but it is very offensive to me. I just thought you might want to know.


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## whitetail (Feb 19, 2011)

where is your source, what news channel/paper.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Why would I think that? Your words! You claimed that the fundamental, religious right and extreme conservatives are a huge problem. But then you implied that liberal, progressive, democrat feminists like yourself care about people! Obviously you don't care about everyone, certainly not anyone on the right! You call them extremists because you don't agree with them. You claim to care about all of these people who are suffering and dying, but what if they're part of the fundamental religious right? Then you dont? Then they are a huge problem?!? So that's why I believe you only care about people who are like you!


I'll stick my neck out here and state flatly that I DO believe the fundamental religious right are a big problem.

Not all religious people or Christians fit in this category, obviously. There are many sincere, caring, intelligent Christians in the world who do a lot of good and I respect their views and their right to practice their faith. Got no problem with that. But the fundamentalists who have insane beliefs about creationism, sex, birth control (as in abstinence only) and who actually believe the Bible must be taken literally, have hijacked the conversation. I truly believe this brand of religion, while protected by the first amendment, is a special kind of crazy. I have no respect for them.

I have NO evidence to cite here, so you may take the following comments as my personal opinion.

Fundamentalist Christians as I describe them do not use anything that approaches critical thinking. They are so deeply invested in their religious beliefs that they can't do anything but ignore overwhelming evidence that PROVES their beliefs are flawed. They scream "religious persecution" when presented with opposing views. They resist any and all efforts to educate themselves or their poor children as to scientific FACT. In Texas, these types have been successful in rewriting textbooks to teach their perverted views on science. But not to only their kids - to everyone's kids. They work tirelessly to "protect" their children from sex education, instead demanding young people be kept ignorant except to their narrow values. But not just for their children - for everyone else's children. They claim that vaccinating girls against HPV encourages early sex, thereby raising the risk to their own daughters of cancer - for no rational reason. They deny climate science and they elect people who agree with them, thereby hurting the entire earth. They do damage in so many ways because they are enslaved to their fundamentalist beliefs. But they vote - boy do they vote, because they feel threatened. It's been proven that people are much more likely to vote when they perceive a threat or a crisis, which is why the extreme conservatives target them - they're easy. They are militant and crazy, and they are blind. And the Koch brothers and tea party love them because they DON'T think critically. They are tools of big money interests and they scare me because they are a threat to our democracy. Time for the rational among us to feel threatened - and vote.


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## Tokyoal (Mar 19, 2014)

http://www.aish.com/ci/s/Hobby-Lobbys-Hanukkah-Decoration-Fiasco.html

This is the article I was referring to....it was also in our newspaper and other sources. To be fair - Hobby Lobby is "reconsidering" their position. I live in Florida and they don't have any stores near me. Consider Michael's or Joanne's or order online. I hope I haven't started a fire storm. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Tokyoal said:


> http://www.aish.com/ci/s/Hobby-Lobbys-Hanukkah-Decoration-Fiasco.html
> 
> This is the article I was referring to....it was also in our newspaper and other sources. To be fair - Hobby Lobby is "reconsidering" their position. I live in Florida and they don't have any stores near me. Consider Michael's or Joanne's or order online. I hope I haven't started a fire storm. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.


Of course they are reconsidering - they want to make money and carrying a more inclusive line will help the bottom line. And make them appear more open-minded. Win win.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Tokyoal said:


> This is my first time posting here and I hate to be a downer. Hobby Lobby has been in the news lately, stating that they don't stock decorations for Jewish holidays since they don't want to do business with "those" people. I don't know if there are any Jewish women who knit or crochet on this forum but it is very offensive to me. I just thought you might want to know.


Thanks for using your virgin post to second what I have said numerously on this thread. My fundamentalist niece tried to buy few hanukkah items there last year and of course, was told they do not carry them. Sorry about being repetitious, but Curves had a similar social outlook and now they are nearly an extinct business. Any business that is so dumb as to publicize their personal beliefs at the risk of alienating customers should not be in business. But have no fear, the market will take of Helly-Lobby like it did Curves. Stock pile their yarn now while you can.

Where did you read this?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Tokyoal said:


> http://www.aish.com/ci/s/Hobby-Lobbys-Hanukkah-Decoration-Fiasco.html
> 
> This is the article I was referring to....it was also in our newspaper and other sources. To be fair - Hobby Lobby is "reconsidering" their position. I live in Florida and they don't have any stores near me. Consider Michael's or Joanne's or order online. I hope I haven't started a fire storm. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.


"Aish" is a very orthodox Jewish organization and not everyone would agree with the writer on the benefits of being 'separate".


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## K2P2 knitter (Jan 31, 2013)

I live in a very small town and none of the stores carry any Jewish items. They assume everyone is Christian like them. I emailed Hobby Lobby to see what they had to say about this and received a reply from Vincent Parker apologizing for the statement and that they respect the Jewish religion and values. As far as the store not carrying any Jewish decorations that is something I for one am very use to. If I want kosher food for Passover I drive either 80 miles round trip or 220 miles round trip to a larger Jewish store. We have one grocery store that is very willing to carry kosher foods for Passover as well as decorations for Chanukah. We let them know exactly when Passover is and they start ordering so the food is available before Passover. The store is very well regarded by the Jewish Community with a lot of the community spreading the word to shop there. There are stores that are really willing to go the extra mile for the Jewish population. They also are making money as well. The Synagogue is 80 miles round trip.


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## K2P2 knitter (Jan 31, 2013)

I received another email from Vincent Parker letting me know the Hobby Lobby online store does carry Chanukah decorations when it gets closer to Chanukah. He also said that select stores did stock Chanukah items.


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## Tokyoal (Mar 19, 2014)

K2P2 knitter said:


> I received another email from Vincent Parker letting me know the Hobby Lobby online store does carry Chanukah decorations when it gets closer to Chanukah. He also said that select stores did stock Chanukah items.


I'm glad they bowed to the pressure. The owner of Chik-Fil-a said today that he was sorry he made the statement about same sex marriage so I think that pressure from the public really does have an impact. I think we can really make a difference by sharing our views.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

K2P2 knitter said:


> I received another email from Vincent Parker letting me know the Hobby Lobby online store does carry Chanukah decorations when it gets closer to Chanukah. He also said that select stores did stock Chanukah items.


What did he mean about select stores? Those with a sizable Jewish population? If that be the case, his moral stance is pretty suspect if he would put profits over his religious values. In any case, he is bad news as far as I am concerned.


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## K2P2 knitter (Jan 31, 2013)

He really didn't explain what he meant by select stores. I would imagine and this is purely speculation on my part but it probably is the larger stores. I don't think Hobby Lobby is any different than other stores when it comes to stocking items in a specific store. The same can be said about Wal-Mart they don't stock any Jewish related items but do stock Hispanic foods in the store near me. What it all boils down to for any store is they stock items they feel the market will purchase.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

The difference however is that Wal-Mart does not have a religious discriminatory motive, at least publicly, for their decisions.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

There are Jewish members and even more members of all persuasions who find bigotry offensive. Welcome.



Tokyoal said:


> This is my first time posting here and I hate to be a downer. Hobby Lobby has been in the news lately, stating that they don't stock decorations for Jewish holidays since they don't want to do business with "those" people. I don't know if there are any Jewish women who knit or crochet on this forum but it is very offensive to me. I just thought you might want to know.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My opinions agree 100%. Well put. Thank you.



DGreen said:


> I'll stick my neck out here and state flatly that I DO believe the fundamental religious right are a big problem.
> 
> Not all religious people or Christians fit in this category, obviously. There are many sincere, caring, intelligent Christians in the world who do a lot of good and I respect their views and their right to practice their faith. Got no problem with that. But the fundamentalists who have insane beliefs about creationism, sex, birth control (as in abstinence only) and who actually believe the Bible must be taken literally, have hijacked the conversation. I truly believe this brand of religion, while protected by the first amendment, is a special kind of crazy. I have no respect for them.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for explaining your position. You have every right to voice your opinion.



Tokyoal said:


> http://www.aish.com/ci/s/Hobby-Lobbys-Hanukkah-Decoration-Fiasco.html
> 
> This is the article I was referring to....it was also in our newspaper and other sources. To be fair - Hobby Lobby is "reconsidering" their position. I live in Florida and they don't have any stores near me. Consider Michael's or Joanne's or order online. I hope I haven't started a fire storm. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

IMO not going to work.



DGreen said:


> Of course they are reconsidering - they want to make money and carrying a more inclusive line will help the bottom line. And make them appear more open-minded. Win win.


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## K2P2 knitter (Jan 31, 2013)

I am not sure Hobby Lobby does either. Is it because they are run by a deeply religious man they don't carry Jewish related items or is it because they simply have not considered carrying the items? From what I received from Vincent at Hobby Lobby I think it was an employee who made the statement and doesn't necessarily reflect the sentiments of the store. As I previously stated NONE of the stores in my area with the exception of one grocery store and Target carry any items. The point can be made that the Hobby Lobby near me doesn't carry piñatas either so they are against the Hispanic population. I would really like to think it is an area they have overlooked marketing to.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> What did he mean about select stores? Those with a sizable Jewish population? If that be the case, his moral stance is pretty suspect if he would put profits over his religious values. In any case, he is bad news as far as I am concerned.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I have been waiting for a good opportunity to post this link. It is directed at those who believe that the US is a Christian nation.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/18/1285607/-If-Our-Founding-Fathers-Were-All-Christians-Why-Did-They-Say-This?detail=email


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## Marcy S. (Mar 16, 2014)

I don't shop there anymore, after the article in the New York and New Jersey newspapers appeared. When a Jewish woman was looking for Hannukah items and asked a saleswoman who replied to the customer," There aren't any and referred to the woman as "You people." Hobby Lobby is within it's rights to sell whatever they want, however referring to Jews as "you people." They lost my business.


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## K2P2 knitter (Jan 31, 2013)

As I previously stated it was a single employee that in their ignorance made the statement. I really think every store at one point in time has had an employee make a stupid statement. If anyone chooses to not shop at a particular store that is their right. The store I stay away from is Michael's but that is just me if others choose to shop there it is none of my business.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Great stuff! Thanks for posting.



SQM said:


> I have been waiting for a good opportunity to post this link. It is directed at those who believe that the US is a Christian nation.
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/18/1285607/-If-Our-Founding-Fathers-Were-All-Christians-Why-Did-They-Say-This?detail=email


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## Loe58 (Jan 28, 2013)

Of course he puts profits over his religious convictions! Otherwise he wouldn't do business with China. The alternative is that his religious beliefs are only offended by American abortions, not Chinese ones.


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## 1953knitter (Mar 30, 2011)

I don't use Red Heart, but I did notice that Hobby Lobby no longer carried Lion yarn.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

lindaspinney said:


> I don't use Red Heart, but I did notice that Hobby Lobby no longer carried Lion yarn.


Lionbrand is owned by a devout Jewish family. Now I really despise Helly-Lobby. A pox on all their merchandise.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

lindaspinney said:


> I don't use Red Heart, but I did notice that Hobby Lobby no longer carried Lion yarn.


Not true.http://shop.hobbylobby.com/yarn-needlework/yarn-by-brand/lion-brand-yarn/


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Loe58 said:


> Of course he puts profits over his religious convictions! Otherwise he wouldn't do business with China. The alternative is that his religious beliefs are only offended by American abortions, not Chinese ones.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> I have been waiting for a good opportunity to post this link. It is directed at those who believe that the US is a Christian nation.
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/18/1285607/-If-Our-Founding-Fathers-Were-All-Christians-Why-Did-They-Say-This?detail=email


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## cynthia627 (Sep 15, 2013)

whitetail said:


> Big difference between having a CAT Scan MRI and ending a life.


Not being able to get a CAT Scan/MRI can lead to death too.

I won't shop in HL because of all of their nonsense.

Do not stand in the way of your employees and their insurance coverage.

If they are Christians and they believe in an afterlife, then let God handle to ones they consider to be sinners!!!


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## Marcy S. (Mar 16, 2014)

SQM, I agree.


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## 1953knitter (Mar 30, 2011)

It is not available at my brick & mortar store. I seldom order yarn, so I don't watch their web site.


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## Tokyoal (Mar 19, 2014)

:thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Yes, Nebraska, facts are facts. I can't help wondering what you were researching and what sources you were looking at. I viewed the video you recommended but could not help noticing the other "If you liked this...." videos displayed alongside the one I was watching. The list was comprised of videos espousing every kind of conspiracy theory and outlandish claim imaginable. These included videos claiming to "prove" that Michelle Obama is really a male and that our President is gay. Others claim Obama is the "Antichrist." I particularly liked the one that tries to convince us that we are all going to be micro-chipped with a device laced with cyanide - to be remotely released if we "disobey." How about the 30,000 guillotines purchased by the government? Another claims that anyone who doesn't sign up for insurance (ACA) will be sent to a FEMA concentration camp. I could go on and on. Is THAT your research? I certainly hope not! To give you every benefit of the doubt, please cite sources for your claims. If you want people to look and listen, that would be a reasonable thing to do, since you don't otherwise support your statements with any evidence. Please don't take this as dismissing your claims - that is not what I intend to do. People WILL listen if you give them a reason to listen backed up by facts. Americans are smart. Well, most of them, anyway.


Well, I've been traveling, just got to the hotel and decided to check my emails. This is what I found! I think that it is absolutely despicable of you to suggest that I said something that I didn't!!! You seem to think that if you defame me, it makes what I've said untrue or unreliable. I SAID what I SAID!!! For you to come up with some imaginary link to something I never said or espoused reveals you for exactly who you are!!! You disgust me!!!


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

For goodness' sake, KFN, she didn't say that you were pushing all the info. She said that these other sites were linked to the one you listed. Please read more carefully before you get apoplexy.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> The problem I have with that video and "tea party" memes in general is that whoever generates such nonsense carefully crafts JUST ENOUGH "truth" to make some people say, "Yeah, yeah!!." Think a little below the surface and their arguments just don't hold up. There are so many "issues" that are USED to incite passion among the less critical thinkers out there and yes, I'm referring to birthers, anti-vacciners, climate-change deniers, creationists, extreme Christian zealots, and people who think illegal immigrants collect social security en masse. I use Facebook to keep up with my family, but I am constantly assaulted with memes that ask me to "like" if I think the Pledge of Allegiance should be said every day in schools, that Christians are being persecuted, that illegal immigration is killing the American Dream, that taxes are too high, that we all need more guns. JUST ENOUGH patriotism and pandering to irrational prejudice to swing the unthinking into buying into the (mostly) conservative mindset. Insidious.


Talk about less critical thinkers!!! You believe anything you're told! You criticize and defame people who do not accept everything they're told! Your ignorance astounds me! First of all, I don't know and don't care where the president was born but I have seen overwhelming evidence that the birth certificate that he presented to the American people is a fraud! Just because you choose to plug your ears and close your eyes, doesn't make it real! Even his lawyer stated in court that it was a fraud! But you wouldn't know about that because to research it would make you a "birther"! Then other people like you, would call you names! You defame " creationists". If you think that evolution is a scientific fact then show one proof, one FACT that proves cross species evolution! There is not one shred of evidence! Scientists SAY it! So don't show me where somebody SAYS it happened. Show one single piece of evidence! You can't! Because it doesn't exist! So, while I can't prove that creation is a fact, neither can you prove that the theory of evolution is any more than a THEORY!!! I'm not even going to address your other issues at this time! I'm going to go enjoy myself! And try not to think about what a despicable person you are!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

maysmom said:


> For goodness' sake, KFN, she didn't say that you were pushing all the info. She said that these other sites were linked to the one you listed. Please read more carefully before you get apoplexy.


I DID read it!!! The power of suggestion is a mighty tool! And she WAS suggesting that the video I posted was of a like kind!


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Of course it is a like kind, that is why they are linked. And if you come here saying that Obama's birth certificate is a fraud, then I really do think you aren't capable of critical thinking. (Or any profound thinking at all, just lobbing onto whacked-out theories and biting like a trout.)


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## Loe58 (Jan 28, 2013)

The quotes say it all.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Talk about less critical thinkers!!! You believe anything you're told! You criticize and defame people who do not accept everything they're told! Your ignorance astounds me! First of all, I don't know and don't care where the president was born but I have seen overwhelming evidence that the birth certificate that he presented to the American people is a fraud! Just because you choose to plug your ears and close your eyes, doesn't make it real! Even his lawyer stated in court that it was a fraud! But you wouldn't know about that because to research it would make you a "birther"! Then other people like you, would call you names! You defame " creationists". If you think that evolution is a scientific fact then show one proof, one FACT that proves cross species evolution! There is not one shred of evidence! Scientists SAY it! So don't show me where somebody SAYS it happened. Show one single piece of evidence! You can't! Because it doesn't exist! So, while I can't prove that creation is a fact, neither can you prove that the theory of evolution is any more than a THEORY!!! I'm not even going to address your other issues at this time! I'm going to go enjoy myself! And try not to think about what a despicable person you are!


Neb - lay off of Green. You are over reacting and you sound nasty. I expect better from you. We can argue issues but you are doing so in a very unchristian way. Love thy enemy. Show what you are really made of and try to take a kinder tone in your postings. Then maybe we will listen harder to you.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Talk about less critical thinkers!!! You believe anything you're told! You criticize and defame people who do not accept everything they're told! Your ignorance astounds me! First of all, I don't know and don't care where the president was born but I have seen overwhelming evidence that the birth certificate that he presented to the American people is a fraud! Just because you choose to plug your ears and close your eyes, doesn't make it real! Even his lawyer stated in court that it was a fraud! But you wouldn't know about that because to research it would make you a "birther"! Then other people like you, would call you names! You defame " creationists". If you think that evolution is a scientific fact then show one proof, one FACT that proves cross species evolution! There is not one shred of evidence! Scientists SAY it! So don't show me where somebody SAYS it happened. Show one single piece of evidence! You can't! Because it doesn't exist! So, while I can't prove that creation is a fact, neither can you prove that the theory of evolution is any more than a THEORY!!! I'm not even going to address your other issues at this time! I'm going to go enjoy myself! And try not to think about what a despicable person you are!


Calm down, Nebraska. Reading your post I had a vision of you pacing around the room, tearing at your hair.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

"Calm down, Nebraska. Reading your post I had a vision of you pacing around the room, tearing at your hair."

it should read "hairs".


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> First of all, I don't know and don't care where the president was born but I have seen overwhelming evidence that the birth certificate that he presented to the American people is a fraud!


I Googled the subject of Obama's birth certificate, particularly your claim that his attorney admitted in court that it was a fake.

The sites claiming this is so:

The Right Perspective (read Tea Party)
Tea Party Tribune
Fed Up USA (the original Tea Party)
Govt Slaves - this is the most interesting one, with headline articles such as this:

"20 Passengers From Missing Malaysia Flight Were DOD Employees Involved In Electronic Warfare & Weapons That Can Cloak Or Make Planes Invisible" Hmm.

Draw your own conclusions on that one.

Other, reputable news sources (including Snopes, but I expect you believe they are "liberal" mouthpieces), soundly debunk this claim - and they have court transcripts that prove your sources are lying.

When claims are too outlandish to be believed, I don't believe them. That includes creationism, by the way.

Before you have an aneurism, try to remember that disagreeing with you is not a despicable act, any more than your saying I'm refusing to see is a despicable act - though I do believe I am considerably more civil than you. I have not called you names.

You're not helping your case by injecting name-calling and exclamation points. Just makes you appear a little hysterical.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> "Calm down, Nebraska. Reading your post I had a vision of you pacing around the room, tearing at your hair."
> 
> it should read "hairs".


I think she's down to one by now.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> But you wouldn't know about that because to research it would make you a "birther"! Then other people like you, would call you names!


Nebraska, you have no basis whatsoever for such an absurd claim. And your logic is seriously flawed. Researching Obama's birth certificate would not make me a "birther." I've read all that BS and it didn't convince me. Believing as you do - THAT would make me a birther.

As for "people like me," it appears that at least a few people who have read my posts agree with me. You are the only one calling me names for doing my "research." One problem here is that you SAY you have done research, but won't provide any citations or attribution for your statements. That leaves the reader wondering where the heck you get your information. You just keep repeating "Open your eyes."

To what? Big claims require big proof. You Tube videos do not qualify, sorry.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

"Open your eyes." 


No No No.

We must close our eyes to her dribble. Point goes to The Bright Green!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

I have another nugget published by GOVT SLAVES that seems relevant here. It's another headline:

Obama Signs Order Instituting YOUR SLAVERY

The dateline on this was 2012. Now, if we had all become slaves back in 2012, how come no one told us?

I mention this headline because it is this sort of horrifying statement that grabs attention and creates excitement and fear. And the kind of crappola that is part and parcel of the sites I mentioned above. You have not provided any reason for me (or anyone else) to believe that's NOT where you get your information. So, set the record straight. Easy.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Maybe we should keep on topic and remind others how much we dislike what happens in Helly- Lobby. I want to keep my wrath flowing.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> Maybe we should keep on topic and remind others how much we dislike what happens in Helly- Lobby. I want to keep my wrath flowing.


OK. I've done some checking on the progress of the Hobby Lobby case and it appears arguments will be heard by the Supreme very soon. The government has a lot of heavy hitters behind them, including the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, but Hobby Lobby has 80 - yes, 80, amicus briefs that have been filed by various conservative groups in support of their position.

I'm quoting from an article by Emily Bazelon in The Slate.

The Beverly LaHaye Institute, the research arm of Concerned Women for America, drives home this point, arguing that the government should have considered
the documented negative effects the widespread availability of contraceptives has on womens ability to enter into and maintain desired marital relationships. This in turn leads to decreased emotional wellbeing and economic stability (out-of-wedlock childbearing being a chief predictor of female poverty), as well as deleterious physical health consequences arising from, inter alia, sexually transmitted infections and domestic violence.

And so, as the AFLC argues, contraceptives of all kinds arent medical or related to health care at all. They are procedures involving gravely immoral practices. Protected sex demeans women by making men disrespect them. (Just as Pope Paul VI did decades ago, the AFLC presents this as true inside marriage as well as out.) By separating sex from childbearing, birth control is to blame for the erosion of marriage, for the economic difficulties of single motherhood, and even for the rotten behavior of men who beat their girlfriends and wives. Birth control is the original sin of modernity. Its widespread availability changed everything, for the worse.

THIS is the kind of thinking that is widespread among fundamentalist Christians. I personally doubt the rank-and-file catholic adheres to the idea that birth control is a grave moral transgression, or to the Pope's recommendation that even married couples should be celibate (I'm not making this up) because catholic women use birth control and have abortions in slightly HIGHER numbers than the general population.

That no less than 80 entities felt compelled to file amicus briefs in this case tells me it is a serious problem for those of us who believe a woman has the right to choose. As for birth control demeaning women? Evidently these organizations have the demeaning attitude toward women - they seem to think women are not naturally sexual beings and are willing slaves to the desires of men.


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## Marcy S. (Mar 16, 2014)

I'm Jewish and I find it offensive.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

The Beverly LaHaye Institute, the research arm of Concerned Women for America

Is this a LaHaye from the "Rapture" ish book series? I'm not surprised, but like you, dismayed.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

maysmom said:


> The Beverly LaHaye Institute, the research arm of Concerned Women for America
> 
> Is this a LaHaye from the "Rapture" ish book series? I'm not surprised, but like you, dismayed.


Not sure, but sounds right. The LaHaye Institute was formed "to counter the prevailing ideologies and agendas of radical leftists and secular humanists. " I'm a feminist so I find their positions offensive. They ARE against the trafficking of women, though - not all bad.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Green - great job of researching. I cannot go any further into my day without saying something about Helly-Lobby. Surrender HL!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> Green - great job of researching. I cannot go any further into my day without saying something about Helly-Lobby. Surrender HL!


Let's hope the Supreme Court agrees with us. I'm quite worried that they will uphold HL's position. This would have sweeping consequences - every right-wing, conservative, fundamentalist business owner (and there are lots of them) could jump on the bandwagon and deny women pretty much whatever they didn't like. As a sincerely-held religious belief, of course. Very slippery slope. And Christians feel persecuted? Sheesh.


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## Tokyoal (Mar 19, 2014)

:thumbup:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

I've been reading up and researching the issue of tax credits here in Arizona. Our legislature, in their infinite stupidity, allows a tax credit of up to $400 per year for contributions to "charitable" institutions. Same for charter schools and private schools - or even contributing to "umbrella" organizations that are quasi fund-raisers for religious schools. These are not deductions - the tax credits are a dollar-for-dollar write off on taxes. They reduce the state coffers. They take real dollars from public education to the tune of approximately $54 million A YEAR in Arizona.

Lots of charitable organizations do excellent work helping the homeless, feeding the hungry, caring for the sick. However, included in the ranks of "charitable" organizations who are tax-exempt and who benefit from these tax credits, are other, not-so-charitable outfits. And there are huge numbers of schools run by religious people who get tax dollars. MY tax dollars, which are used to promote religion. I believe this is a clear violation of the first amendment, but higher courts have approved the practice. 

One particular sore spot is the presence on the list of CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS of several "crisis pregnancy centers" who share in this misappropriation of tax money. They don't even try to hide their orientation, but instead boast about their fundamental values and beliefs, including abstinence-only and the evils of abortion. All the while, they distribute misinformation about reproductive choices and prey on vulnerable, frightened women and girls to literally prevent them from obtaining abortions. 

So, the point of my rant is this. Since pro-lifers complain bitterly about "paying" for abortions, how is it they are happy to take MY money to spread lies and misinformation?

Is this not just one more hypocrisy from the right-wing religious?


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## whitetail (Feb 19, 2011)

Charter schools are not religious. Those who send their children to private religious school have to pay a rather high tuition, books and uniform and still have to pay full school taxes which in the northeast are rather high. Of course this is their choice, but they are getting away with nothing there. You don't have to give to religious charities to get a tax right off. Crisis pregnancy centers are not hateful, they supply alternatives to killing their unborn child, how horrible is that. What lies are you talking about that are being spread? Planned Parenthood has been a huge deceiver of what really happens when one chooses to have an abortion. Maybe looking at the limbs of the inconvenient child they didn't want would put a different light on things. Are you an atheist or just a very angry person?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

whitetail said:


> Charter schools are not religious. Those who send their children to private religious school have to pay a rather high tuition, books and uniform and still have to pay full school taxes which in the northeast are rather high. Of course this is their choice, but they are getting away with nothing there. You don't have to give to religious charities to get a tax right off. Crisis pregnancy centers are not hateful, they supply alternatives to killing their unborn child, how horrible is that. What lies are you talking about that are being spread? Planned Parenthood has been a huge deceiver of what really happens when one chooses to have an abortion. Maybe looking at the limbs of the inconvenient child they didn't want would put a different light on things. Are you an atheist or just a very angry person?


In Arizona many charter schools are, indeed, religious. In Arizona people who send their children to religious schools DO get a tax credit. I know this because my grandchildren go to private Catholic schools. If I chose to contribute $400 to an "umbrella" organization for private schooling, I, too, could get a tax credit. I don't do it. I prefer that my dollars go 100% to public education. And I don't approve of my grandchildren being indoctrinated and immersed in religion.

CPC's tell women that there is a strong link between having had an abortion and breast cancer. Not true. This has been debunked repeatedly but the CPC's keep telling the lie in an attempt to scare women.

CPC's claim that there are severe psychological effects from having an abortion. Proven to be false. Much worse psychological damage from carrying an unwanted pregnancy. Even if it resulted from rape. Talk about psychological damage - can you imagine reliving the rape every day and every time the baby moves?

CPC's (not all, but many) discourage the use of any kind of birth control - including condoms. They say "Oh, condoms don't protect from STD's" which they do. Who could possibly object to condoms except the hyper-religious? They wildly exaggerate risks of birth control pills, the morning-after pill, etc. WILDLY.

CPC's are misleading to the extreme in their advertising by not disclosing their goals and beliefs. Many women go to CPC's expecting real counseling, not what amounts to pure religious sermonizing and shaming. They call themselves "counselors" but offer ONLY their personal views because they are not even licensed counselors in many cases. At least one state has prosecuted them for false advertising.

CPC's are fond of showing photos of dismembered fetuses - as if that was a common reality of abortion. It is not. To say this is common is a lie of monumental proportions. It is horrible, but only a last resort, often to save the life of the mother in late pregnancy. Which CPC's contribute to by doing everything in their power to prevent early abortion.

CPC's violate fair labor law by enforcing a religious test for employment. This is curious, since they claim to have NO religious agenda. Can't have it both ways, but they want it both ways so they can get tax money. Hmm.

CPC's claim to provide support and assistance AFTER the baby is born to entice women to keep their babies. Such support and assistance, if it exists at all, is minimal and short term as if a couple of month's worth of diapers is a big help over a lifetime. Which makes them the ultimate hypocrites - convincing women to have babies they can't care for then abandoning them.

Whether or not I am angry is immaterial. I believe women's rights are at risk so I'm speaking up. Just like you, so are YOU angry?

You use the word "atheist" as if it were an epithet. Perfectly legitimate and reasonable position. Based on reason, by the way.


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## whitetail (Feb 19, 2011)

I am not one bit angry, why would I be. We will never agree on this.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Whitetail, just curious--do you equate an atheist with being angry?


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## whitetail (Feb 19, 2011)

Of course not, how ignorant that would be.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I Googled the subject of Obama's birth certificate, particularly your claim that his attorney admitted in court that it was a fake.
> 
> The sites claiming this is so:
> 
> ...


First of all, I haven't been able to respond until now. You've cherry picked sources to ridicule the premise. There are hundreds of sites that are discussing this and no, none of them are liberal democratic sites! Whether you like this one or not, it has a lot of comprehensive evidence from multiple investigators and experts. Follow the links! Read the actual article instead of judging it by its title. Just start there!

You say that creationism is too outlandish to believe and yet, do you believe in Darwin's "theory" of evolution? I challenged you to find just ONE example of cross species evolution, and yet you remain silent on that. That's because no one has ever found any evidence of cross species evolution! It's all speculation! If the earth and everything on it just happened as the result of the big bang theory, and all species evolved from a bit of matter, WHY has no one ever found any proof or evidence? I'm still challenging you to post one shred of evidence! Just because someone says something, doesn't make it so!

And lastly, I did not say you were despicable because you disagreed with me! I SAID it because rather than answer and defend your position, you smear and discredit! You use suggestion to say that anyone who disagrees with you is a nut! You suggest that by association, I was saying things that I wasn't. Address the real points! I have NEVER gotten on here and suggested that all liberal democrats are terrible and are destroying this country. I could say a lot but conversely I have critisized BOTH parties! Not all liberal democrats are destroying this country and neither are all Christians republicans (fundamental or otherwise)! I judge people on the content of their character and their actions, NOT labels!!!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I've been reading up and researching the issue of tax credits here in Arizona. Our legislature, in their infinite stupidity, allows a tax credit of up to $400 per year for contributions to "charitable" institutions. Same for charter schools and private schools - or even contributing to "umbrella" organizations that are quasi fund-raisers for religious schools. These are not deductions - the tax credits are a dollar-for-dollar write off on taxes. They reduce the state coffers. They take real dollars from public education to the tune of approximately $54 million A YEAR in Arizona.
> 
> Lots of charitable organizations do excellent work helping the homeless, feeding the hungry, caring for the sick. However, included in the ranks of "charitable" organizations who are tax-exempt and who benefit from these tax credits, are other, not-so-charitable outfits. And there are huge numbers of schools run by religious people who get tax dollars. MY tax dollars, which are used to promote religion. I believe this is a clear violation of the first amendment, but higher courts have approved the practice.
> 
> ...


So...do you want to eliminate ALL tax credits, or just the ones YOU don't like?!?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Neb - lay off of Green. You are over reacting and you sound nasty. I expect better from you. We can argue issues but you are doing so in a very unchristian way. Love thy enemy. Show what you are really made of and try to take a kinder tone in your postings. Then maybe we will listen harder to you.


Really? Why do you not chastise anyone else? I WAS trying to argue ISSUES! I called her out on what she was doing, suggesting that I'm a nut! She doesn't argue the issues. She relies upon personal insults for anyone she disagrees with! The FIRST time I call her on it you say I'M being nasty! She spews nasty with every post! And frankly, listen or don't listen! It's no loss to me!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Shameful.



DGreen said:


> I've been reading up and researching the issue of tax credits here in Arizona. Our legislature, in their infinite stupidity, allows a tax credit of up to $400 per year for contributions to "charitable" institutions. Same for charter schools and private schools - or even contributing to "umbrella" organizations that are quasi fund-raisers for religious schools. These are not deductions - the tax credits are a dollar-for-dollar write off on taxes. They reduce the state coffers. They take real dollars from public education to the tune of approximately $54 million A YEAR in Arizona.
> 
> Lots of charitable organizations do excellent work helping the homeless, feeding the hungry, caring for the sick. However, included in the ranks of "charitable" organizations who are tax-exempt and who benefit from these tax credits, are other, not-so-charitable outfits. And there are huge numbers of schools run by religious people who get tax dollars. MY tax dollars, which are used to promote religion. I believe this is a clear violation of the first amendment, but higher courts have approved the practice.
> 
> ...


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Really? Why do you not chastise anyone else? I WAS trying to argue ISSUES! I called her out on what she was doing, suggesting that I'm a nut! She doesn't argue the issues. She relies upon personal insults for anyone she disagrees with! The FIRST time I call her on it you say I'M being nasty! She spews nasty with every post! And frankly, listen or don't listen! It's no loss to me!


If she's just suggesting you're a nut, she's being kind!!!!!!! :twisted:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Maybe we should get back on topic. Has anyone had any new thoughts or experiences with HL?


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

A lot of people are boycotting HL; Me Too! A friend was in there and said they were playing Hymns/Blue Grass Gospel, etc. Wonder how many employees feel the same way about the Issue. Bet not many! Insurance is an absolute Must these days.
:thumbdown:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Hmm!

mmoris -Do you live in a large city , suburb, etc. ? We don't have them in NYC, so I am wondering if the boycott works best in a town or a city. I hope they are hurting somewhere.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

Our town is about 50,000 people. All the knit shops around here went out of business several years ago. There is a nice shop about 15 miles away which is worth going to. What about yours?


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

The boycott seems to be having an effect here. I'd think it would be more effective in a large city.


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## whitetail (Feb 19, 2011)

I can't believe anyone could be upset because of music, hymns and bluegrass, seriously, do you get as upset with the rap music with all the sexual references and cursing playing in other shops.


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## cynthia627 (Sep 15, 2013)

I am boycotting HL because of this issue and another. My store is in Marlboro, NJ and a Jewish friend of mine told me that she asked why there were no menorahs or other holiday items in the store. She said the manager rudely replied that they don't cater to Jews because the owner is a Christian!!!

Well that was it for me!! And carpenters and other workers were picketing the store when it was being built because HL brought in out of state, non-union workers to build the store. How very Christian of Mr. Green!!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

mmorris said:


> Our town is about 50,000 people. All the knit shops around here went out of business several years ago. There is a nice shop about 15 miles away which is worth going to. What about yours?


We have many knit shops in all the boroughs of New York City but we don't have HL in Manhattan. Not sure if they exist in Queens, Brooklyn, Bronx or S.I. I guess the big box craft chains are eating up a lot of the lys.


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## Loe58 (Jan 28, 2013)

HL seems to be doing pretty well in the Las Vegas Valley. I think many people don't realize how hypocritical their policy is. Also, many people just don't care, because HL's prices appear to be pretty reasonable. The fact that the great majority of their merchandise is made in China (with no minimum wage policy, no standard health care, poor availability of birth control, mandatory abortion for women who have one male child, and religious persecution) isn't all that important. They play hymns in-store and are closed on Sunday. As a pro-choice and pro-human rights Christian, I am apalled by HL's apparent lack of concern for Asian fetuses and fully-grown humans across the globe. If you are pro-life you should be boycotting HL. Why doesn't the Christian Right address this issue?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The way to figure it out would be to check their stock performance. They could be privately owned. Personally, I don't think they're doing well. It's always a bad idea to antagonize any group of clients.



SQM said:


> Hmm!
> 
> mmoris -Do you live in a large city , suburb, etc. ? We don't have them in NYC, so I am wondering if the boycott works best in a town or a city. I hope they are hurting somewhere.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

What shops play rap music? I've never heard it in a store.



whitetail said:


> I can't believe anyone could be upset because of music, hymns and bluegrass, seriously, do you get as upset with the rap music with all the sexual references and cursing playing in other shops.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

They have antagonized too many potential clients. WHY would a manager reply to a customer in such an insulting way?



cynthia627 said:


> I am boycotting HL because of this issue and another. My store is in Marlboro, NJ and a Jewish friend of mine told me that she asked why there were no menorahs or other holiday items in the store. She said the manager rudely replied that they don't cater to Jews because the owner is a Christian!!!
> 
> Well that was it for me!! And carpenters and other workers were picketing the store when it was being built because HL brought in out of state, non-union workers to build the store. How very Christian of Mr. Green!!


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## whitetail (Feb 19, 2011)

I hear it in just about every store in the malls, where it is geared towards younger people. It's loud and very detailed.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for the information. I'll certainly avoid the malls. Nothing there anyway.



whitetail said:


> I hear it in just about every store in the malls, where it is geared towards younger people. It's loud and very detailed.


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## whitetail (Feb 19, 2011)

agree


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## cynthia627 (Sep 15, 2013)

damemary said:


> They have antagonized too many potential clients. WHY would a manager reply to a customer in such an insulting way?


100% true. It was on TV in the NY/NJ area plus it was in the newspapers too, NY Daily News and NJ papers.

Some man blogged about it, if I remember correctly, because the same manager told him something similar to my friend. He took great offense to the reply and wrote about it asking for an apology from HL.

I have no idea why the response would be like that, especially since Marlboro, NJ is a very heavily Jewish area. So alot of their clientele would be Jewish.

Anti-Semitism??? possibly, it makes no sense otherwise.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

cynthia627 said:


> 100% true. It was on TV in the NY/NJ area plus it was in the newspapers too, NY Daily News and NJ papers.
> 
> Some man blogged about it, if I remember correctly, because the same manager told him something similar to my friend. He took great offense to the reply and wrote about it asking for an apology from HL.
> 
> ...


If it IS anti-Semitism, they are calling a lot of attention to themselves and will suffer on account of that. As they should.


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## Tokyoal (Mar 19, 2014)

The Supreme Court is hearing their case tomorrow. Hobby Lobby says it's unconstitutional to "make" them pay for birth control for their employees since they are a Christian company and play Christian music in their stores. It will be interesting to see what the court says. I think it will open a whole can of worms if they rule in favor of Hobby Lobby. BTW, they employ 13,000 people, mostly women. I thought I would mention this since I started this whole thread.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Tokyoal - you started a hot thread! if you can, would you let us know what the Supreme Court rules, here?

All the Jewish people on this thread will hold a vigil (do Jews hold vigils?) for the right decision to be made.


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## Tokyoal (Mar 19, 2014)

Usually their decisions take a few months, but I will keep you up to date. I really didn't mean to start something but when I saw the topic "Hobby Lobby" I couldn't help myself. If you would like I will give you my opinions about Walmart and why everyone should shop at Costco. LOL


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Ha Ha. Yep, you certainly start provocative threads. Try for a second hit.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So...do you want to eliminate ALL tax credits, or just the ones YOU don't like?!?


When my taxes go to support religious education, I object. It's very clear cut. If parents want to send their kids to a religious school, they can do so - and pay for it themselves. This is a fundamental of separation of church and state. I don't believe I mentioned any other tax credits, so why the question except to be deliberately argumentative?


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## whitetail (Feb 19, 2011)

Parents do pay for religious education, and those same parents also have to pay school taxes for public school even though their children aren't attending. They also have to pay for the books and uniforms.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

whitetail said:


> Parents do pay for religious education, and those same parents also have to pay school taxes for public school even though their children aren't attending. They also have to pay for the books and uniforms.


Their choice. Public schools are available to them, and as you point out, they have paid for them. It has only been in recent years in Arizona that ANY tax money was diverted to religious schools, and now some $54 million a year is being siphoned off for private education. This leaves the student whose family has fewer resources at a distinct disadvantage as more and more money is diverted. Arizona already ranks very low in terms of the quality of public education and this only makes it worse. And no, I don't believe "throwing money" at education is the answer. There is a point beyond which you can't cut funding and expect a quality result. Arizona is WAY past that point.


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

Two things:

First, on the topic of this thread, I just returned from Hobby Lobby and my store still has plenty of Red Heart on the shelves, but they also have integrated into the Red Heart section a yarn called "Crafters Choice" which is their own brand. It is the same price as the Red Heart and feels much nicer.

Second, on the hijack topic of this thread, I have not seen it noted in this thread (so I may have missed it), but Hobby Lobby is not the only Plaintiff in the lawsuit ... the lawsuit has 50 Plaintiffs ... you just hear more about Hobby Lobby because they are the largest company involved. I hate seeing Hobby Lobby being the only one beaten up since they are not alone in their quest.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peachy51 said:


> Two things:
> 
> First, on the topic of this thread, I just returned from Hobby Lobby and my store still has plenty of Red Heart on the shelves, but they also have integrated into the Red Heart section a yarn called "Crafters Choice" which is their own brand. It is the same price as the Red Heart and feels much nicer.
> 
> Second, on the hijack topic of this thread, I have not seen it noted in this thread (so I may have missed it), but Hobby Lobby is not the only Plaintiff in the lawsuit ... the lawsuit has 50 Plaintiffs ... you just hear more about Hobby Lobby because they are the largest company involved. I hate seeing Hobby Lobby being the only one beaten up since they are not alone in their quest.


Interesting. Can you direct us to where we can see which other companies are involved?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> When my taxes go to support religious education, I object. It's very clear cut. If parents want to send their kids to a religious school, they can do so - and pay for it themselves. This is a fundamental of separation of church and state. I don't believe I mentioned any other tax credits, so why the question except to be deliberately argumentative?


I asked the question because you think its perfectly fine to force Christians to pay taxes that go to pay for things they consider evil (ie abortion) and YET, you don't think that YOU should have to pay for things you don't believe in! I believe that, that is the ultimate hyprocracy!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I asked the question because you think its perfectly fine to force Christians to pay taxes that go to pay for things they consider evil (ie abortion) and YET, you don't think that YOU should have to pay for things you don't believe in! I believe that, that is the ultimate hyprocracy!


I may not like it, Nebraska, but I pay for it. THAT IS THE POINT. You don't have a patent on paying for things you don't like.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

peachy51 said:


> Two things:
> 
> First, on the topic of this thread, I just returned from Hobby Lobby and my store still has plenty of Red Heart on the shelves, but they also have integrated into the Red Heart section a yarn called "Crafters Choice" which is their own brand. It is the same price as the Red Heart and feels much nicer.
> 
> Second, on the hijack topic of this thread, I have not seen it noted in this thread (so I may have missed it), but Hobby Lobby is not the only Plaintiff in the lawsuit ... the lawsuit has 50 Plaintiffs ... you just hear more about Hobby Lobby because they are the largest company involved. I hate seeing Hobby Lobby being the only one beaten up since they are not alone in their quest.


 :thumbup:


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

SQM said:


> Interesting. Can you direct us to where we can see which other companies are involved?


They are not all in the same lawsuit. Their are many lawsuits over the same issue. And one site I was on said there are now over 80 Plaintiffs.

The particular lawsuit for Hobby Lobby includes Hobby Lobby and Mardel.

Even tho they are scattered over numerous lawsuits, they are all asking for the same relief.

And many of the lawsuits have been filed by State governments. We just had it on our ballot last month to vote for or against the State repealing the whole of Obamacare.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> First of all, I haven't been able to respond until now. You've cherry picked sources to ridicule the premise. There are hundreds of sites that are discussing this and no, none of them are liberal democratic sites! Whether you like this one or not, it has a lot of comprehensive evidence from multiple investigators and experts. Follow the links! Read the actual article instead of judging it by its title. Just start there!
> 
> You say that creationism is too outlandish to believe and yet, do you believe in Darwin's "theory" of evolution? I challenged you to find just ONE example of cross species evolution, and yet you remain silent on that. That's because no one has ever found any evidence of cross species evolution! It's all speculation! If the earth and everything on it just happened as the result of the big bang theory, and all species evolved from a bit of matter, WHY has no one ever found any proof or evidence? I'm still challenging you to post one shred of evidence! Just because someone says something, doesn't make it so!
> 
> And lastly, I did not say you were despicable because you disagreed with me! I SAID it because rather than answer and defend your position, you smear and discredit! You use suggestion to say that anyone who disagrees with you is a nut! You suggest that by association, I was saying things that I wasn't. Address the real points! I have NEVER gotten on here and suggested that all liberal democrats are terrible and are destroying this country. I could say a lot but conversely I have critisized BOTH parties! Not all liberal democrats are destroying this country and neither are all Christians republicans (fundamental or otherwise)! I judge people on the content of their character and their actions, NOT labels!!!


I believe the theory of evolution is correct because it is the only thing that makes sense - based on the science and the world as we know it. You leave out an important element of evolution, which is the very real demonstrable concept of natural selection and the evolution of life OVER TIME. If you are one of those who think the world is only 6,000 years old, then you obviously would not find the theory plausible.

Much greater minds than mine postulate scientific theories. I don't pretend to understand them all completely, but I do believe that the scientific process of guessing at a cause, then experimenting or searching for evidence to support it is a sound practice. If scientists find their theory doesn't prove out, they discard it and try again to get to the truth. They freely admit they are working on theory and don't know everything. They are seekers. I find the process fascinating and enlightening. It stretches my mind beyond my own little concerns.

Creationists, on the other hand, base their belief on one book, one idea, one ideology. There is no room for seeking - it's all right there, spelled out for them. Since I have no use for the bible, the idea of creationism is completely uninteresting and ridiculous to me. You can have it.

I feel no need to convince you or to try to explain anything to you since you "know" all about it. Cross-species evolution is a straw man argument that indicates you are repeating the old "gotcha" arguments. Nothing original or thought provoking there.

As for discrediting you, I'm not sure I know what I'm discrediting. The only stand or beliefs you have clearly stated involved the slavery video and creationism. You never cite sources for your supposed knowledge. I'm quite frankly puzzled about WHAT you believe because you have not clearly stated your positions. You hint and rave about what I say, and accuse me of believing pretty much anything I've been told, but don't come right out and tell us any specifics about your thoughts. Or SPECIFIC sources of your supposed proof. If you don't want people to assume what you think, perhaps you should tell us.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peachy - texas is a wild state


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

peachy51 said:


> They are not all in the same lawsuit. Their are many lawsuits over the same issue. And one site I was on said there are now over 80 Plaintiffs.
> 
> The particular lawsuit for Hobby Lobby includes Hobby Lobby and Mardel.
> 
> ...


Exactly how does a State repeal federal law?


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I asked the question because you think its perfectly fine to force Christians to pay taxes that go to pay for things they consider evil (ie abortion) and YET, you don't think that YOU should have to pay for things you don't believe in! I believe that, that is the ultimate hyprocracy!


Well, KFN, some Christians don't have a problem with abortion. How do you differentiate those? Who decides what is evil and what isn't? I am quite sure that my tax dollars support people like Michelle Bachmann and her "pray the gay away" husband through farm subsidies, etc. etc. Just what do you suggest?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I suggest that we get excited/apprehensive that Helly-Lobby goes to the Supreme Court tomorrow!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> I suggest that we get excited/apprehensive that Helly-Lobby goes to the Supreme Court tomorrow!


We won't know their decision until mid-summer. Or whenever they decide to announce it. I guess the best we can hope is that the media will give us some idea of the arguments.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

maysmom said:


> Well, KFN, some Christians don't have a problem with abortion. How do you differentiate those? Who decides what is evil and what isn't? I am quite sure that my tax dollars support people like Michelle Bachmann and her "pray the gay away" husband through farm subsidies, etc. etc. Just what do you suggest?


KFM is short on suggestions and solutions.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

http://www.facebook.com/RickSantorum/photos/a.468157332369.259209.44746457369/10152286698422370/?type=1&theater


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> http://www.facebook.com/RickSantorum/photos/a.468157332369.259209.44746457369/10152286698422370/?type=1&theater


We all know where that one stands. Solidly against women and for male supremacy.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> KFM is short on suggestions and solutions.


Seems to me that I've been suggesting the SAME thing since this thread started! I've suggested that we follow the Constitution of The United States! Congress shall pass NO law that prohibits the free exercise of religion! Period!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Seems to me that I've been suggesting the SAME thing since this thread started! I've suggested that we follow the Constitution of The United States! Congress shall pass NO law that prohibits the free exercise of religion! Period!


Nor shall they pass any law that favors one religion over another.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Nor shall they pass any law that favors one religion over another.


Ah, but they have done that! Any religion that doesn't believe in insurance is not required to participate! Seems to me that they shouldn't force anyone to go against their beliefs! Not just selected groups!


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Ah, but they have done that! Any religion that doesn't believe in insurance is not required to participate! Seems to me that they shouldn't force anyone to go against their beliefs! Not just selected groups!


How about some bona fide data to back up that one? Again, I'll wait.

:roll:


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## Loe58 (Jan 28, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I asked the question because you think its perfectly fine to force Christians to pay taxes that go to pay for things they consider evil (ie abortion) and YET, you don't think that YOU should have to pay for things you don't believe in! I believe that, that is the ultimate hyprocracy!


Using taxes to pay for private religious education is a violation of the separation of church and state clause. Everyone pays taxes which support something they don't like (health care, military spending, farm subsidies, whatever). Those things however do not violate the Constitution.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Ah, but they have done that! Any religion that doesn't believe in insurance is not required to participate! Seems to me that they shouldn't force anyone to go against their beliefs! Not just selected groups!


PLEASE READ CAREFULLY:

(1) Exemption 
Any individual may file an application (in such form and manner, and with such official, as may be prescribed by regulations under this chapter) for an exemption from the tax imposed by this chapter if he is a member of a recognized religious sect or division thereof and is an adherent of established tenets or teachings of such sect or division by reason of which he is conscientiously opposed to acceptance of the benefits of any private or public insurance which makes payments in the event of death, disability, old-age, or retirement or makes payments toward the cost of, or provides services for, medical care (including the benefits of any insurance system established by the Social Security Act). Such exemption may be granted only if the application contains or is accompanied by 
(A) such evidence of such individuals membership in, and adherence to the tenets or teachings of, the sect or division thereof as the Secretary may require for purposes of determining such individuals compliance with the preceding sentence, and

(B) his waiver of all benefits and other payments under titles II and XVIII of the Social Security Act on the basis of his wages and self-employment income as well as all such benefits and other payments to him on the basis of the wages and self-employment income of any other person,

and only if the Commissioner of Social Security finds that

(C) such sect or division thereof has the established tenets or teachings referred to in the preceding sentence,

(D) it is the practice, and has been for a period of time which he deems to be substantial, for members of such sect or division thereof to make provision for their dependent members which in his judgment is reasonable in view of their general level of living, and

(E) such sect or division thereof has been in existence at all times since December 31, 1950.

****

We are talking about INDIVIDUALS who have established, historically, their objections to ALL insurance - including Social Security. This must be proven and documented and it covers a very small number of people. Muslims are not exempt, by the way.

Hobby Lobby is not an individual. Nor is it a church-owned enterprise such as a Catholic hospital. Their group insurance will (presumably) cover employees of many faiths - some of whom do not fall in line with their brand of Christianity. HL should not be permitted to dictate personal decisions for their employees based on THEIR beliefs.

Allowing this would open the door to all sorts of crazy religious objections. How about a Pagan-owned business that refuses to cover circumcision? Or Christian Scientists who want to be exempt from paying for blood transfusions? People have an amazing capacity for moralizing about other people's lives - the sky's the limit.

Referring to another post, I'm predicting that it is only a matter of time before Hobby Lobby is in deep trouble over their hiring practices (mostly Christian women, which implies a religious test for employment) and for maintaining a hostile work environment. A previous poster mentioned that employees are "invited" to pray at work twice a day. Hmm. Since Hobby Lobby has so many stores in so many places, one wonders whether the nature of these prayer meetings is truly voluntary - and that all management resists the urge to discriminate against anyone who does not play (pray) along. As a human resources manager in my past life, I am willing to bet that some manager, somewhere, creates a hostile environment for anyone who does not comply. That's against the law. Stay tuned, people.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Referring to another post, I'm predicting that it is only a matter of time before Hobby Lobby is in deep trouble over their hiring practices (mostly Christian women, which implies a religious test for employment)

DG, does HL actually ask this info during the hiring process?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

maysmom said:


> Referring to another post, I'm predicting that it is only a matter of time before Hobby Lobby is in deep trouble over their hiring practices (mostly Christian women, which implies a religious test for employment)
> 
> DG, does HL actually ask this info during the hiring process?


I don't know, but the former post makes me wonder. Even though it is illegal, employers often discriminate in hiring and it is up to the applicant to prove that. Which is mighty difficult. First, you have to remember that in the job market, there are often many applicants for every job. How do you know why you didn't get the job? How does one go about proving a thing like that? Even if you strongly suspect discrimination, who has the money to bring a lawsuit without some pretty strong proof? It would seem to me that HL could have any number of subtle ways to figure out who might not "fit" in. And any number of ways to get rid of those who don't. I certainly wouldn't put it past them.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm a loyal Costco shopper too.



Tokyoal said:


> Usually their decisions take a few months, but I will keep you up to date. I really didn't mean to start something but when I saw the topic "Hobby Lobby" I couldn't help myself. If you would like I will give you my opinions about Walmart and why everyone should shop at Costco. LOL


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Yes dear. My parents paid for us to attend Catholic school for years including uniforms etc.....and they paid taxes for Public schools. Get over it. It's your choice how you educate your children.



whitetail said:


> Parents do pay for religious education, and those same parents also have to pay school taxes for public school even though their children aren't attending. They also have to pay for the books and uniforms.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Agreed 100% from Arizona. We don't use the schools, but we support them.



DGreen said:


> Their choice. Public schools are available to them, and as you point out, they have paid for them. It has only been in recent years in Arizona that ANY tax money was diverted to religious schools, and now some $54 million a year is being siphoned off for private education. This leaves the student whose family has fewer resources at a distinct disadvantage as more and more money is diverted. Arizona already ranks very low in terms of the quality of public education and this only makes it worse. And no, I don't believe "throwing money" at education is the answer. There is a point beyond which you can't cut funding and expect a quality result. Arizona is WAY past that point.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That's what happens when your CEO is the spokesperson. They chose the position.



peachy51 said:


> Two things:
> 
> First, on the topic of this thread, I just returned from Hobby Lobby and my store still has plenty of Red Heart on the shelves, but they also have integrated into the Red Heart section a yarn called "Crafters Choice" which is their own brand. It is the same price as the Red Heart and feels much nicer.
> 
> Second, on the hijack topic of this thread, I have not seen it noted in this thread (so I may have missed it), but Hobby Lobby is not the only Plaintiff in the lawsuit ... the lawsuit has 50 Plaintiffs ... you just hear more about Hobby Lobby because they are the largest company involved. I hate seeing Hobby Lobby being the only one beaten up since they are not alone in their quest.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Bravo. Well put.



DGreen said:


> I believe the theory of evolution is correct because it is the only thing that makes sense - based on the science and the world as we know it. You leave out an important element of evolution, which is the very real demonstrable concept of natural selection and the evolution of life OVER TIME. If you are one of those who think the world is only 6,000 years old, then you obviously would not find the theory plausible.
> 
> Much greater minds than mine postulate scientific theories. I don't pretend to understand them all completely, but I do believe that the scientific process of guessing at a cause, then experimenting or searching for evidence to support it is a sound practice. If scientists find their theory doesn't prove out, they discard it and try again to get to the truth. They freely admit they are working on theory and don't know everything. They are seekers. I find the process fascinating and enlightening. It stretches my mind beyond my own little concerns.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Nor shall they pass any law that favors one religion over another.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Maybe they have a secret handshake.



maysmom said:


> Referring to another post, I'm predicting that it is only a matter of time before Hobby Lobby is in deep trouble over their hiring practices (mostly Christian women, which implies a religious test for employment)
> 
> DG, does HL actually ask this info during the hiring process?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Age discrimination is firmly against the law, but people over 50 find it next to impossible to get hired in this environment. Why?



DGreen said:


> I don't know, but the former post makes me wonder. Even though it is illegal, employers often discriminate in hiring and it is up to the applicant to prove that. Which is mighty difficult. First, you have to remember that in the job market, there are often many applicants for every job. How do you know why you didn't get the job? How does one go about proving a thing like that? Even if you strongly suspect discrimination, who has the money to bring a lawsuit without some pretty strong proof? It would seem to me that HL could have any number of subtle ways to figure out who might not "fit" in. And any number of ways to get rid of those who don't. I certainly wouldn't put it past them.


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## Tokyoal (Mar 19, 2014)

Re: Hobby Lobby Supreme Court case

Right now, the Supreme Court is hearing a case that could let right-wing bosses deny birth control to women. If craft retailer Hobby Lobby--a company headed by evangelical activists--wins, the precedent this case could set is frightening. We're talking about HIV treatment, vaccines, blood transfusions, and more.

Today, a lot of people will be talking about the case, but not a lot of people know why its so important. We need to spread the word so Americans everywhere understand that birth control is a vital health care need for millions of women and that 1 in 3 women have a hard time paying for it.


Just another viewpoint.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm with you 100%.



Tokyoal said:


> Re: Hobby Lobby Supreme Court case
> 
> Right now, the Supreme Court is hearing a case that could let right-wing bosses deny birth control to women. If craft retailer Hobby Lobby--a company headed by evangelical activists--wins, the precedent this case could set is frightening. We're talking about HIV treatment, vaccines, blood transfusions, and more.
> 
> ...


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Tokyoal said:


> Re: Hobby Lobby Supreme Court case
> 
> Right now, the Supreme Court is hearing a case that could let right-wing bosses deny birth control to women. If craft retailer Hobby Lobby--a company headed by evangelical activists--wins, the precedent this case could set is frightening. We're talking about HIV treatment, vaccines, blood transfusions, and more.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup:


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## whitetail (Feb 19, 2011)

DO NOT tell me to get over anything, or call me Dear, how condescending are you, I never said it wasn't their choice I said just the opposite, that it was their choice, in former post They also pay (myself included) school taxes, as all are required to do.


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

Tokyoal said:


> Re: Hobby Lobby Supreme Court case
> 
> Right now, the Supreme Court is hearing a case that could let right-wing bosses deny birth control to women. If craft retailer Hobby Lobby--a company headed by evangelical activists--wins, the precedent this case could set is frightening. We're talking about HIV treatment, vaccines, blood transfusions, and more.
> 
> ...


Please be factual in the posts. They are not asking to deny ALL birth control (I believe there are only 4 or 5 they object to). Hobby Lobby is not against birth control ... just certain forms. A lot of these posts are making it sound like Hobby Lobby doesn't want to cover birth control at all which isn't the case.

Quite honestly, I think people are making a mountain out of a molehill. Birth control used to not be covered on many insurance policies. Finally, the insurance companies got smart and realized it was less expensive to cover the birth control than to cover the babies.

If a person doesn't like the benefits offered by a company, then don't apply for a job there. I should be able to decide what my company is going to pay for and all companies have always made their own decisions. I have heard people for years say things like "I hate Cigna," or "Travelers is horrible insurance," when, in fact, the insurance company was covering only the things the employer chose to be covered.

We have way too much government in this country telling us what we can and can't do. The last thing we need is more government meddling in our lives.

And from my experience with Hobby Lobby employees, they seem to be quite pleased with the company and their jobs. Like I have said in a previous post tho, it could just be that my area is more in tune with their philosophy.

For the record, I am not a pro-lifer ... I am now and have always been pro-choice. But I am totally against those women who choose to not take any responsibility for birth control and use the abortion process as their method of birth control ... and there are way more of them out there than most people realize.


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## Marcy S. (Mar 16, 2014)

Tokyoal, I'll bite, why should we shop at Costco?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

peachy51 said:


> Please be factual in the posts. They are not asking to deny ALL birth control (I believe there are only 4 or 5 they object to). Hobby Lobby is not against birth control ... just certain forms. A lot of these posts are making it sound like Hobby Lobby doesn't want to cover birth control at all which isn't the case.
> 
> Quite honestly, I think people are making a mountain out of a molehill. Birth control used to not be covered on many insurance policies. Finally, the insurance companies got smart and realized it was less expensive to cover the birth control than to cover the babies.
> 
> ...


This is not a mountain out of a molehill. If the Supreme Court upholds HL's position, any employer can dictate what healthcare his employees get by claiming religious objection. It's a very, very slippery slope that ends up with those of different faiths, or no faith, having THEIR rights usurped by employers. It is also part and parcel of the fundamental Christian goal to outlaw abortion entirely. And to teach nothing but abstinence only in schools. Next it will be creationism instead of science (already trying hard on that one). This is just the current battle in the war.

I think it is a total myth that women use abortion as their main method of birth control. There may be a few who do but I have more respect for women than to ever believe that myth.


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## Tokyoal (Mar 19, 2014)

Well...Costco pays their employees an average of $19.00 per hour. Their CEO makes a really decent salary - I have forgotten how much but it isn't millions. Walmart, on the other hand, has 60% of their employees on food stamps because they qualify with their low salaries. You might have seen all the protests on the news. There are 5 Walton heirs that are worth BILLIONS! They deliberately schedule their employees on a schedule that changes every week so they cannot get other part time jobs to feed their families. They make sure that most of their employees only work part time to avoid paying benefits. So...no health insurance, no 401K, etc. Lately, I have been seeing ads for them touting how happy their employees are. Why can't they follow the lead of the Gap, which also owns Banana Republic, Old Navy and other stores and raise the salaries to $10.00 per hour. Still not a living wage but better than the ridiculous federal minimum wage that Congress is fighting so hard not to raise. And that's why I shop at Costco and I tell the managers why too. Last time I was there, we hugged - LOL


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

DGreen said:


> This is not a mountain out of a molehill. If the Supreme Court upholds HL's position, any employer can dictate what healthcare his employees get by claiming religious objection. It's a very, very slippery slope that ends up with those of different faiths, or no faith, having THEIR rights usurped by employers. It is also part and parcel of the fundamental Christian goal to outlaw abortion entirely. And to teach nothing but abstinence only in schools. Next it will be creationism instead of science (already trying hard on that one). This is just the current battle in the war.
> 
> I think it is a total myth that women use abortion as their main method of birth control. There may be a few who do but I have more respect for women than to ever believe that myth.


And you have your opinion and I have mine


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## Tokyoal (Mar 19, 2014)

You are entitled to your own opinions - always - but you are NOT entitled to your own facts.


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

Tokyoal said:


> You are entitled to your own opinions - always - but you are NOT entitled to your own facts.


LOL ... and neither are you ... they are NOT trying deny ALL birth control.


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## Tokyoal (Mar 19, 2014)

So....you apply for a job, the interviewer is a man...and you have to have a discussion with him about whether your husband (or boyfriend) uses condoms, or are you on the "pill" or you have an IUD and you have to figure out what the right answer is because you REALLY need this job to feed your family and pay the rent. How would that go?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Tokyoal said:


> So....you apply for a job, the interviewer is a man...and you have to have a discussion with him about whether your husband (or boyfriend) uses condoms, or are you on the "pill" or you have an IUD and you have to figure out what the right answer is because you REALLY need this job to feed your family and pay the rent. How would that go?


actually in my day I had to promise I would not get pregnant to get a job. And that happened more than once.


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## Tokyoal (Mar 19, 2014)

That happened to me too, but thankfully times have changed.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Tokyoal said:


> So....you apply for a job, the interviewer is a man...and you have to have a discussion with him about whether your husband (or boyfriend) uses condoms, or are you on the "pill" or you have an IUD and you have to figure out what the right answer is because you REALLY need this job to feed your family and pay the rent. How would that go?


Tokyoal - that exact thing happened to me. It is degrading and intrusive and over-the-top inappropriate. I didn't get the job, by the way - I told the interviewer it was immaterial and none of his business.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

peachy51 said:


> LOL ... and neither are you ... they are NOT trying deny ALL birth control.


You are correct. Nevertheless, their beliefs do not trump the right of every woman to decide what is best for her. If HL wins, it would set a precedent for others to claim the right to refuse to pay for ANY birth control - as a Catholic business might wish to do. It's a slippery slope.


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

DGreen said:


> You are correct. Nevertheless, their beliefs do not trump the right of every woman to decide what is best for her. If HL wins, it would set a precedent for others to claim the right to refuse to pay for ANY birth control - as a Catholic business might wish to do. It's a slippery slope.


I am not a Catholic, but I believe if a Catholic-owned company did not wish to pay for birth control because it was against their beliefs, they should not be made to go against their beliefs.

The bottom line here is that no one is forcing anyone to work for a company that doesn't provide what they think they should get.

And if Hobby Lobby decides to close its doors because it is being forced to provide what they don't believe, then what happens to all the employees they have? They will then have no job and no insurance at all. Suppose the employees would rather be in that boat?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

They pay their employees a living wage. The CEO makes a 'modest' $350,0000 per year because he thinks its fair. People make a career of working at Costco staying many years. Costco offers customers excellent quality at reasonable prices. That's my reasons off the top of my head.

This is in comparison with WalMart as an example. Mostly part-timers work there and end up on food stamps, Medicaid etc. The Walton family have amassed the greatest fortune since John D. Rockefeller (?.) Sell cheap products manufactured in China by children and slave labor.

Which do you prefer to shop?



Marcy S. said:


> Tokyoal, I'll bite, why should we shop at Costco?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Tokyoal said:


> You are entitled to your own opinions - always - but you are NOT entitled to your own facts.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

In my opinion, it is up to the individuals not a corporation to make these decisions.

For example it's okay with me if the owner of a company practices their beliefs in any way they wish. It is intrusive for the owner to control how their employees live their lives. Free speech and separation of Church and State.

If a company decides to close its doors for any reason, so be it. They are just not welcome to make money at the expense of employees or of the nation.



peachy51 said:


> I am not a Catholic, but I believe if a Catholic-owned company did not wish to pay for birth control because it was against their beliefs, they should not be made to go against their beliefs.
> 
> The bottom line here is that no one is forcing anyone to work for a company that doesn't provide what they think they should get.
> 
> And if Hobby Lobby decides to close its doors because it is being forced to provide what they don't believe, then what happens to all the employees they have? They will then have no job and no insurance at all. Suppose the employees would rather be in that boat?


----------



## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

damemary said:


> In my opinion, it is up to the individuals not a corporation to make these decisions.
> 
> For example it's okay with me if the owner of a company practices their beliefs in any way they wish. It is intrusive for the owner to control how their employees live their lives. Free speech and separation of Church and State.
> 
> If a company decides to close its doors for any reason, so be it. They are just not welcome to make money at the expense of employees or of the nation.


Like I said before ... the employees of Hobby Lobby *chose* to apply for a job there and work there. No one has forced any of them to work for that company. As the owner of my company, I do get to make the decisions on how my company will operate and the ideals my company will follow.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Agree to disagree.



peachy51 said:


> Like I said before ... the employees of Hobby Lobby *chose* to apply for a job there and work there. No one has forced any of them to work for that company. As the owner of my company, I do get to make the decisions on how my company will operate and the ideals my company will follow.


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

damemary said:


> Agree to disagree.


LOL ... you disagree that the employees chose to apply for a job and work at Hobby Lobby???

Or you disagree that I should be able to make the decisions for my company?


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

peachy51 said:


> Like I said before ... the employees of Hobby Lobby *chose* to apply for a job there and work there. No one has forced any of them to work for that company. As the owner of my company, I do get to make the decisions on how my company will operate and the ideals my company will follow.


You just stepped into a mud puddle here, peachy. Suppose you are a fundamentalist who believes that women should always cover their heads--would you hire or sell to women who do not wear headcoverings? If you are antigay, would you not serve gays(forget about employing them.) Please explain--


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

maysmom said:


> You just stepped into a mud puddle here, peachy. Suppose you are a fundamentalist who believes that women should always cover their heads--would you hire or sell to women who do not wear headcoverings? If you are antigay, would you not serve gays(forget about employing them.) Please explain--


Stepped into a mud puddle? I don't think so. You are trying to carry the discussion to a whole different realm. The issue has nothing to do with hiring practices or selling practices. It has to do with the forcing a business to pay for and provide services against their beliefs.

Every business that I know of is in the business of making money and I am not aware of any business that refuses to sell their products to any customer with the $$ to pay for the products they want to purchase.

As far as hiring practices, we have had for a long time the government meddling into who a business must hire and most of us have seen how that has worked.

But, neither of those issues are the issue at hand with Hobby Lobby.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think your attitude says you, as owner of the company, deserve more than others. I find such lack of humility appalling. I also dislike your baiting and manipulating to twist fact into lies. IMO, we have far different views and neither of us will change. So we agree to disagree. Good bye.



peachy51 said:


> LOL ... you disagree that the employees chose to apply for a job and work at Hobby Lobby???
> 
> Or you disagree that I should be able to make the decisions for my company?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

May Hobby Lobby disappear soon.



peachy51 said:


> Stepped into a mud puddle? I don't think so. You are trying to carry the discussion to a whole different realm. The issue has nothing to do with hiring practices or selling practices. It has to do with the forcing a business to pay for and provide services against their beliefs.
> 
> Every business that I know of is in the business of making money and I am not aware of any business that refuses to sell their products to any customer with the $$ to pay for the products they want to purchase.
> 
> ...


----------



## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

damemary said:


> I think your attitude says you, as owner of the company, deserve more than others. I find such lack of humility appalling. I also dislike your baiting and manipulating to twist fact into lies. IMO, we have far different views and neither of us will change. So we agree to disagree. Good bye.


I don't know where you got the inference that I think I deserve more than others when I say that I should get to make the decisions for my company. Who else should make those decisions? You obviously know nothing about running a business.

So, yes, I think we will definitely have to agree to disagree.

For the record, even tho I wholeheartedly disagree with you, I would fight for you to have your opinion (no matter how far it is off from mine) and I suspect you would never fight for any but your own opinion.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

peachy51 said:


> I don't know where you got the inference that I think I deserve more than others when I say that I should get to make the decisions for my company. Who else should make those decisions? You obviously know nothing about running a business.


Running a business is one thing. Closing the doors on Sunday is a business decision. What merchandise they carry - business decision. Attempting to impose one's religious beliefs onto employees is another thing entirely.

Back to the original point of this topic. Hobby Lobby purchases a lot of its merchandise from China at very low prices, making a healthy profit by doing so. It is common knowledge that China enforces mandatory abortion and birth control. Hobby Lobby, without a doubt, knows this. Christian values at home and crass capitalism overseas. This does not sound like "sincerely held" religious belief to me. Rather, the word "hypocrisy" comes to mind.

HL is only one of many who are claiming this religious exemption. Opening the door to such claims, some of which going forward may not pertain to abortion but to other services, puts employees at the mercy of their employers' RELIGIOUS whims. That's wrong.


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

DGreen said:


> ... Back to the original point of this topic ...


Actually, DG, the original topic of this thread was about Hobby Lobby discontinuing to carry Red Heart yarn.

This thread has been seriously hijacked.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

peachy51 said:


> Actually, DG, the original topic of this thread was about Hobby Lobby discontinuing to carry Red Heart yarn.
> 
> This thread has been seriously hijacked.


It has been changed. You don't need to follow.


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

DGreen said:


> It has been changed.


I know it was changed. It's a damned shame that some people have to bring politics into every thread 



DGreen said:


> You don't need to follow.


LOL ... you take care of your business and I'll take care of mine.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Running a business is one thing. Closing the doors on Sunday is a business decision. What merchandise they carry - business decision. Attempting to impose one's religious beliefs onto employees is another thing entirely.
> 
> Back to the original point of this topic. Hobby Lobby purchases a lot of its merchandise from China at very low prices, making a healthy profit by doing so. It is common knowledge that China enforces mandatory abortion and birth control. Hobby Lobby, without a doubt, knows this. Christian values at home and crass capitalism overseas. This does not sound like "sincerely held" religious belief to me. Rather, the word "hypocrisy" comes to mind.
> 
> HL is only one of many who are claiming this religious exemption. Opening the door to such claims, some of which going forward may not pertain to abortion but to other services, puts employees at the mercy of their employers' RELIGIOUS whims. That's wrong.


Wish I were as smart as Green. :mrgreen:


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## Tokyoal (Mar 19, 2014)

peachy51 said:


> Actually, DG, the original topic of this thread was about Hobby Lobby discontinuing to carry Red Heart yarn.
> 
> This thread has been seriously hijacked.


I was the hijacker - wanting to inform this forum about the lack of Jewish decorations in their stores. I found this information in the newspaper. I saw the topic titled "Hobby Lobby" and thought I would give you guys some information. It was my first post on this forum which I joined because I love to do needlework. I've been amazed at the reaction and differences of opinion. But I am a Unitarian Universalist so I guess I shouldn't have been. Our religion doesn't agree about much. LOL. I promise that my next post - if there is one will be about picking up dropped stitches.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Tokyoal said:


> I was the hijacker - wanting to inform this forum about the lack of Jewish decorations in their stores. I found this information in the newspaper. I saw the topic titled "Hobby Lobby" and thought I would give you guys some information. It was my first post on this forum which I joined because I love to do needlework. I've been amazed at the reaction and differences of opinion. But I am a Unitarian Universalist so I guess I shouldn't have been. Our religion doesn't agree about much. LOL. I promise that my next post - if there is one will be about picking up dropped stitches.


Ridiculous. You just stay right here. I brought up the decorations issue pages before you did. There is no law against diverging awhile. It usually goes back to topic quickly enough and the off comments are usually the most interesting.


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## Tokyoal (Mar 19, 2014)

SQM said:



> Ridiculous. You just stay right here. I brought up the decorations issue pages before you did. There is no law against diverging awhile. It usually goes back to topic quickly enough and the off comments are usually the most interesting.


Thank you very much :lol:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> Wish I were as smart as Green. :mrgreen:


I wish I were as smart as SQM


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Agree 100%. Well put.



DGreen said:


> Running a business is one thing. Closing the doors on Sunday is a business decision. What merchandise they carry - business decision. Attempting to impose one's religious beliefs onto employees is another thing entirely.
> 
> Back to the original point of this topic. Hobby Lobby purchases a lot of its merchandise from China at very low prices, making a healthy profit by doing so. It is common knowledge that China enforces mandatory abortion and birth control. Hobby Lobby, without a doubt, knows this. Christian values at home and crass capitalism overseas. This does not sound like "sincerely held" religious belief to me. Rather, the word "hypocrisy" comes to mind.
> 
> HL is only one of many who are claiming this religious exemption. Opening the door to such claims, some of which going forward may not pertain to abortion but to other services, puts employees at the mercy of their employers' RELIGIOUS whims. That's wrong.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You sound like an intelligent person who likes needleword, and your mind is active. Please jump in with anything you wish to say.



Tokyoal said:


> I was the hijacker - wanting to inform this forum about the lack of Jewish decorations in their stores. I found this information in the newspaper. I saw the topic titled "Hobby Lobby" and thought I would give you guys some information. It was my first post on this forum which I joined because I love to do needlework. I've been amazed at the reaction and differences of opinion. But I am a Unitarian Universalist so I guess I shouldn't have been. Our religion doesn't agree about much. LOL. I promise that my next post - if there is one will be about picking up dropped stitches.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> Ridiculous. You just stay right here. I brought up the decorations issue pages before you did. There is no law against diverging awhile. It usually goes back to topic quickly enough and the off comments are usually the most interesting.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

peachy51 said:


> Actually, DG, the original topic of this thread was about Hobby Lobby discontinuing to carry Red Heart yarn.
> 
> This thread has been seriously hijacked.


The thread morphed into business practices of a retailer. Hijacked, I doubt. 
We need a "Costco" retailer for yarns, fabrics, and craft supplies--


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That would be nice indeed. In the meantime, I do what I can. Keep knitting.....and thinking.



maysmom said:


> The thread morphed into business practices of a retailer. Hijacked, I doubt.
> We need a "Costco" retailer for yarns, fabrics, and craft supplies--


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

maysmom said:


> The thread morphed into business practices of a retailer. Hijacked, I doubt.


"Hijacked" is message board lingo for a thread that has gone completely off-topic which this one most assuredly has :roll:


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

peachy51 said:


> "Hijacked" is message board lingo for a thread that has gone completely off-topic which this one most assuredly has :roll:


Whatever you say, Peachy. Nice dog.


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

maysmom said:


> Whatever you say, Peachy. Nice dog.


Yes, she's a real diva ... a sweetheart, but still a diva :mrgreen:


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

peachy51 said:


> Yes, she's a real diva ... a sweetheart, but still a diva :mrgreen:


I have her male equivalent, but he's a Maltese. (And he thinks he's a German shepherd.)


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

knitnanny said:


> Haven't shopped in Hobby Lobby since they started fighting their staff over their drug plan...


Are there HL's in Canada?


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## Thulha (Nov 10, 2011)

I stand with Hobby Lobby. They are not fighting contraceptives. They are fighting abortions. It costs them a fortune in fines to stand up for life and for their principles. I admire their courage. Don't just take other peoples' opinions, get educated. Wake up to what is happening. I don't care about your opinions, your are responsible for those. I stand with Hobby Lobby because they are doing the work of God.


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## Bombshellknits (Feb 2, 2013)

After someone here told a story about asking for some type of Jewish item at Hobby Lobby and they told her that they didn't cater to "you people, we're Christian" I never intend to set foot in there again. I don't care if they are giving stuff away. They disputes over health care are irrelevant to me. But, to call someone Jewish "You People", like they are a second class citizens is way out of line. And, for all we know that person could have been buying a gift for a Jewish friend. This intolerance of "some people" for people who have beliefs that are different just offends me. Personally, I hope Hobby Lobby goes bankrupt.


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## peachy51 (Feb 9, 2012)

Bombshellknits said:


> After someone here told a story about asking for some type of Jewish item at Hobby Lobby and they told her that they didn't cater to "you people, we're Christian" I never intend to set foot in there again. I don't care if they are giving stuff away. They disputes over health care are irrelevant to me. But, to call someone Jewish "You People", like they are a second class citizens is way out of line. And, for all we know that person could have been buying a gift for a Jewish friend. This intolerance of "some people" for people who have beliefs that are different just offends me. Personally, I hope Hobby Lobby goes bankrupt.


So you think that every remark made by every employee of every large company is reflecting the stance of the leaders of the company?

I wonder if the person who asked for the Jewish items then went and spoke to the manager of that store or contacted the corporate office to see what they had to say? That employee might have been reprimanded or fired for the remarks. That is narrow-minded thinking to just take the words of a peon floor employee as being the stance of the company or in line with the company's mission statement.

I would never negate any company until I went to corporate and got their stance.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Ironically I saw a HL store sign that touted "Seasonals". When my Christian niece asked for a seasonal menorah she was told by the store in Elgin, Il that they do not stock Chanukah items. No season exists for Jews in HL.


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## bobctwn65 (Jul 27, 2012)

I go to buy yarn...I buy yarn...where my money goes or does after that I don't care...


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## Loe58 (Jan 28, 2013)

Hobby Lobby supports Chinese abortions. Get educated on that issue. If American abortions are wrong, then Chinese abortions are also wrong. If you support Hobby Lobby, you are supporting the mandatory abortion policy of China.


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## Bombshellknits (Feb 2, 2013)

peachy51 said:


> So you think that every remark made by every employee of every large company is reflecting the stance of the leaders of the company?
> 
> I wonder if the person who asked for the Jewish items then went and spoke to the manager of that store or contacted the corporate office to see what they had to say? That employee might have been reprimanded or fired for the remarks. That is narrow-minded thinking to just take the words of a peon floor employee as being the stance of the company or in line with the company's mission statement.
> 
> I would never negate any company until I went to corporate and got their stance.


As you can see by SQMs comment following mine, that sort of thing happens quite a bit at Hobby Lobby. I have heard the story many times. A lot of them right here on this forum. As far as how the person followed up, I'm not sure. Either they didn't say, or I don't remember. I will tell you one thing tho, as a business owner, MY employees are not "peons". They aren't even considered employees, the are called "coworkers". They work WITH us, not FOR us.

And to reply to a further comment, I absolutely care where my money goes after I buy yarn. I'm a small business owner. I support small business every chance I get. Small business Saturday? It's small business EVERYDAY at our home. My drugstore, yarn store and jewelry store are small businesses. So is my camera store. I shop on etsy when I can. My hairstylist is self employed as is the girl who does my facial. So are my greenhouses and nurseries. Sadly, the really great privately owned grocery store is about 35 miles away. So, I don't shop there weekly. But, I DO shop there. I will be there Monday. I live in a small town with, to quote John Mellencamp, "little opportunity". If we have been able to be in business this long as a small business, then I will do everything in my power to support other small businesses. Heck, when I go to the grocery store 35 miles away, I stop at the small business clothing store. And, what you aren't seeing is this: Let's say I buy yarn at Hobby Lobby. And, you said you don't care where your money goes after you buy yarn. Well, I do, and by supporting small businesses, a lot of my money has come right back to me, because those small businesses also support my business. The local small business appliance store? Their one employee is married to the owner of my LYS. I absolutely LOVE seeing where my money goes. My plumber, painter, electrician, heating and cooling guy, they are all small businesses and every single one gives me the most amazing service. Sometimes these folks send me thank you gifts, and those have come from another small business.

I'm not saying I use small businesses every day, all day. But, when I can, it is my only choice. You can't imagine the difference it makes in your community.


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## Bombshellknits (Feb 2, 2013)

SQM said:


> Ironically I saw a HL store sign that touted "Seasonals". When my Christian niece asked for a seasonal menorah she was told by the store in Elgin, Il that they do not stock Chanukah items. No season exists for Jews in HL.


If I had a dime for every time I heard a similar story about them I would be quite wealthy.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Bombshellknits said:


> If I had a dime for every time I heard a similar story about them I would be quite wealthy.


You are 'da bomb' and I am glad you are posting here. I applauded all you had to say about small local businesses. Seems like Helly-Lobby invests in overseas contraceptives and the like . Hippo-crits. We don't have them in NYC so I cannot see them in action first hand. Quelle dommage!


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## Bombshellknits (Feb 2, 2013)

SQM said:


> You are 'da bomb' and I am glad you are posting here. I applauded all you had to say about small local businesses. Seems like Helly-Lobby invests in overseas contraceptives and the like . Hippo-crits. We don't have them in NYC so I cannot see them in action first hand. Quelle dommage!


Thanx!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'd love to do business with you. Your attitude is refreshing.



Bombshellknits said:


> As you can see by SQMs comment following mine, that sort of thing happens quite a bit at Hobby Lobby. I have heard the story many times. A lot of them right here on this forum. As far as how the person followed up, I'm not sure. Either they didn't say, or I don't remember. I will tell you one thing tho, as a business owner, MY employees are not "peons". They aren't even considered employees, the are called "coworkers". They work WITH us, not FOR us.
> 
> And to reply to a further comment, I absolutely care where my money goes after I buy yarn. I'm a small business owner. I support small business every chance I get. Small business Saturday? It's small business EVERYDAY at our home. My drugstore, yarn store and jewelry store are small businesses. So is my camera store. I shop on etsy when I can. My hairstylist is self employed as is the girl who does my facial. So are my greenhouses and nurseries. Sadly, the really great privately owned grocery store is about 35 miles away. So, I don't shop there weekly. But, I DO shop there. I will be there Monday. I live in a small town with, to quote John Mellencamp, "little opportunity". If we have been able to be in business this long as a small business, then I will do everything in my power to support other small businesses. Heck, when I go to the grocery store 35 miles away, I stop at the small business clothing store. And, what you aren't seeing is this: Let's say I buy yarn at Hobby Lobby. And, you said you don't care where your money goes after you buy yarn. Well, I do, and by supporting small businesses, a lot of my money has come right back to me, because those small businesses also support my business. The local small business appliance store? Their one employee is married to the owner of my LYS. I absolutely LOVE seeing where my money goes. My plumber, painter, electrician, heating and cooling guy, they are all small businesses and every single one gives me the most amazing service. Sometimes these folks send me thank you gifts, and those have come from another small business.
> 
> I'm not saying I use small businesses every day, all day. But, when I can, it is my only choice. You can't imagine the difference it makes in your community.


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## RP1019 (May 23, 2014)

MaggiePringlemeir said:


> What store discontinues carrying a basic yarn like Red Heart?
> 
> A store that carries a great percentage of their inventory in house brands aka private label goods. There are many reasons to switch to this sort of program. If they are developing the line, the store is better able to ensure quality control and to develop an exclusive palette of colors not available in other stores. These are positives for the consumer.
> 
> ...


I think you've got it!


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## majormomma (Nov 2, 2011)

peachy51 said:


> :thumbup: I agree. Anytime a company is not allowed to stand on their principles, they should go out of business. Anyone who doesn't agree with their principles doesn't have to work there or shop there. As for me, I will keep shopping Hobby Lobby. :mrgreen:


 :thumbup:


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

peachy51:
I agree. Anytime a company is not allowed to stand on their principles said:


> :thumbup:


Then why don't they "stand on their own principles" and stop buying their goods from a country that MANDATES birth control, only allows one child, and even forces abortion?


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