# Current Events



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

There are several topics in General Chit-Chat that address current events, social, political, and/or religious. These topics ramble through a lot of different subjects. Sometimes it's satisfyingly diverse and interesting. Sometimes things get pretty heated. 

C'mon in, if you like. Bring your interests here and discuss them with a bunch of different people with differing points of view. Try not to step too hard on anyone you radically disagree with.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Some topics are very close to our hearts and therefore we do tend to become a little heated. 

I do not know if you saw the latest video posted by PETA, supposedly showing conditions in Australian shearing sheds. The thread is entitled 'has anyone seen this'. People who are not familiar with the operations in an Australian Shearing shed believe that the video portrays conditions in the majority of Australian Shearing Sheds. It is a propaganda video produced by PETA and definitely does not portray the working conditions in the shearing shed. It is hard to debunk this video without appearing to be attacking other posters.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Some topics are very close to our hearts and therefore we do tend to become a little heated.
> 
> I do not know if you saw the latest video posted by PETA, supposedly showing conditions in Australian shearing sheds. The thread is entitled 'has anyone seen this'. People who are not familiar with the operations in an Australian Shearing shed believe that the video portrays conditions in the majority of Australian Shearing Sheds. It is a propaganda video produced by PETA and definitely does not portray the working conditions in the shearing shed. It is hard to debunk this video without appearing to be attacking other posters.


EveMCooke
I have observed shearings in many places but never seen abuse.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> EveMCooke
> I have observed shearings in many places but never seen abuse.


I lived in New Zealand and shearing sheds were common . I never saw any animal mistreatment. We had a friend who raised sheep and learned a lot about sheep and how they were raised, and treated.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Our 4H kids learn to shear and do demonstrations at the 4H Fair. The sheep seem relieved to lose their winter coats.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> There are several topics in General Chit-Chat that address current events, social, political, and/or religious. These topics ramble through a lot of different subjects. Sometimes it's satisfyingly diverse and interesting. Sometimes things get pretty heated.
> 
> C'mon in, if you like. Bring your interests here and discuss them with a bunch of different people with differing points of view. Try not to step too hard on anyone you radically disagree with.


Sorry, you all have your pet players and newcomers are raked over the coals.
I will continue to monitor my own way, as I know what topics and who is discussing them.
Have a good day.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

galaxycraft said:


> Sorry, you all have your pet players and newcomers are raked over the coals.
> I will continue to monitor my.own way, as I know what topics and who is discussing them.
> Have a good day.


"We" are not the only ones who do what you're describing. I was going to post this on WOW, but thought I'd try it here. Maybe the wild rumpus will move over here and duke it out instead of misusing WOW.

This was on FFD&P: "...at this point in time I think the left is attacking Joey because it fills a void for them. They are all free to leave the thread and stay on their liberal threads, but do not. Whenever Joey posts an article, they all come out in force and attack. It's not about abortion, I don't think the lefties really care about abortion. It's about the one against the many. It's about trying to take Joey down and getting her to leave KP. One less Republican/Conservative is always a good thing. The one thing they didn't count on is that Joey is strong and will fight back and defend what she feels strongly about. It's been one round after another and Joey is still standing and standing STRONG. I equate this to Joey being Israel and the lefties being Hamas. Hamas will lose. That my opinion of what is going on."

Somehow, I don't much like being compared to Hamas. I don't even like reading that Joey is Israel, though she uses her defensive weapons as freely as Israel is doing right now. I find this post from D&P offensive in so many ways I can't hardly begin to say anything about it at all.

The subject that pops into my mind first is how much I dread the 2016 Presidential election and the backlash I believe we will have to live through against anything even vaguely liberal and everything that can be attributed to President Obama getting wiped out.

I'm developing a real bunker mentality. I would like to live in the middle of nowhere, far from the country the US will become in 2016. How do any of you feel?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> "We" are not the only ones who do what you're describing. I was going to post this on WOW, but thought I'd try it here. Maybe the wild rumpus will move over here and duke it out instead of misusing WOW.
> 
> This was on FFD&P: "...at this point in time I think the left is attacking Joey because it fills a void for them. They are all free to leave the thread and stay on their liberal threads, but do not. Whenever Joey posts an article, they all come out in force and attack. It's not about abortion, I don't think the lefties really care about abortion. It's about the one against the many. It's about trying to take Joey down and getting her to leave KP. One less Republican/Conservative is always a good thing. The one thing they didn't count on is that Joey is strong and will fight back and defend what she feels strongly about. It's been one round after another and Joey is still standing and standing STRONG. I equate this to Joey being Israel and the lefties being Hamas. Hamas will lose. That my opinion of what is going on."
> 
> ...


Well, I for one feel that you, madam, are very strange indeed.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Well, I for one feel that you, madam, are very strange indeed.


Wombat
What is this supposed to mean?

MIB, I'm going into my bunker before 2016!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

"I don't even like reading that Joey is Israel, though she uses her defensive weapons as freely as Israel is doing right now."

Of course Israel is using defensive weapons. What country wouldn't if they were being attacked by missiles?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> "I don't even like reading that Joey is Israel, though she uses her defensive weapons as freely as Israel is doing right now."
> 
> Of course Israel is using defensive weapons. What country wouldn't if they were being attacked by missiles?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> "We" are not the only ones who do what you're describing. I was going to post this on WOW, but thought I'd try it here. Maybe the wild rumpus will move over here and duke it out instead of misusing WOW.
> 
> This was on FFD&P: "...at this point in time I think the left is attacking Joey because it fills a void for them. They are all free to leave the thread and stay on their liberal threads, but do not. Whenever Joey posts an article, they all come out in force and attack. It's not about abortion, I don't think the lefties really care about abortion. It's about the one against the many. It's about trying to take Joey down and getting her to leave KP. One less Republican/Conservative is always a good thing. The one thing they didn't count on is that Joey is strong and will fight back and defend what she feels strongly about. It's been one round after another and Joey is still standing and standing STRONG. I equate this to Joey being Israel and the lefties being Hamas. Hamas will lose. That my opinion of what is going on."
> 
> ...


If the political campaigns from the far right are as distorted and slanted as their representatives on KP, I fear the average uninvolved voter will start to buy into the fear tactics. So many people are so gullible and don't bother to do much critical thinking to determine what is truly in their best interests. The country may be on the down side of its glory days, but we have weathered idiots and monsters running it in the past. Among what we can do is carefully vet for whom we vote, write letters to editors and our elected officials, and see what happens.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> "I don't even like reading that Joey is Israel, though she uses her defensive weapons as freely as Israel is doing right now."
> 
> Of course Israel is using defensive weapons. What country wouldn't if they were being attacked by missiles?


I would more equate Joey with Hamas distributing distorted information then rabidly defending the disinformation. The people debating against her rhetoric are more in tune with Israel's position of defending against attack.

But even making comments such as those leading to our rebuttals is typical of the practice of the big lie, keep repeating it loudly and often and in print to the point that non thinkers start to believe it.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Wombat
> What is this supposed to mean?
> MIB, I'm going into my bunker before 2016!


Oh, I dearly hope I will be in mine as well. It's definitely a work in progress.


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## Confuzzled (May 31, 2014)

MaidInBedlam said:


> There are several topics in General Chit-Chat that address current events, social, political, and/or religious. These topics ramble through a lot of different subjects. Sometimes it's satisfyingly diverse and interesting. Sometimes things get pretty heated.
> 
> C'mon in, if you like. Bring your interests here and discuss them with a bunch of different people with differing points of view. Try not to step too hard on anyone you radically disagree with.


I Looked At This Invitation, And Wondered Why About It. A Modest Proposal: Current Events Have Many Meanings. This Site Is International. Please Reflect Upon That. Insta-Squabble Between Those Who Feel They Have The Right 
To Do So. Devil Take The Hindmost. Pray Continue To Knit At The Base of The Guillotine.

Have I won? Knitting, History, Literature?


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## Confuzzled (May 31, 2014)

Religion too ? I mentioned the devil ......


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Confuzzled said:


> I Looked At This Invitation, And Wondered Why About It. A Modest Proposal: Current Events Have Many Meanings. This Site Is International. Please Reflect Upon That. Insta-Squabble Between Those Who Feel They Have The Right
> To Do So. Devil Take The Hindmost. Pray Continue To Knit At The Base of The Guillotine.
> 
> Have I won? Knitting, History, Literature?


I thought of calling this topic "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here" but thought better of it in the end.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I thought of calling this topic "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here" but thought better of it in the end.


Sorry you edited yourself. Great title.


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## Confuzzled (May 31, 2014)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I thought of calling this topic "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here" but thought better of it in the end.


LOL :-D

Are we talking about Dante now? Sistene Chapel? Travel, "Latine Legamus?" Coliseum full of cats now (they ate the lions)?

Yarn sold in Italy? (E bella)


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Sorry you edited yourself. Great title.


I still could start a topic called "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here". It might be more popular than this one with its really dull name. What do you think?


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## Confuzzled (May 31, 2014)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I still could start a topic called "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here". It might be more popular than this one with its really dull name. What do you think?


Arbeit macht frei


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Confuzzled said:


> Arbeit macht frei


*No, most definitely not that, please.* It has far too many unhappy memories. Have you forgotten who used this phrase and where it was posted? I am sure that there are posters who have personal and painful memories of that phrase.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Confuzzled said:


> Arbeit macht frei


Are you trying to be deliberately offensive or do you forget the history of that phrase?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I still could start a topic called "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here". It might be more popular than this one with its really dull name. What do you think?


You know me well enough to realize that I adore the bizarre. Go for it in a day or two if this doesn't catch on. It is so great that we can redo our mistakes on KP and not so easily in real life, including knitting.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Confuzzled said:


> Arbeit macht frei


Oh! Seems like our Confuzzled is a bit of a pig and should confine herself to hunting truffles. Shoo fly shoo!


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## Confuzzled (May 31, 2014)

I do apologise for being offensive.

I do indeed know my "world" history and "personal" history. One's point of view varies as to what is amusing and what is not. I freely acknowledge your right to scorn me from your point of view. I reserve my right to a sense of humour ........ Please forgive this humble idiot. I'll tell the family what I have done and said and ask them if I am wicked.

Dammit, I know they will roll their eyes and say "irony" . Teach them " irony"

In the meantime, my sincere apologies to the many many casual readers of this thread.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> If the political campaigns from the far right are as distorted and slanted as their representatives on KP, I fear the average uninvolved voter will start to buy into the fear tactics. So many people are so gullible and don't bother to do much critical thinking to determine what is truly in their best interests. The country may be on the down side of its glory days, but we have weathered idiots and monsters running it in the past. Among what we can do is carefully vet for whom we vote, write letters to editors and our elected officials, and see what happens.


Chicago citizens have bought into the liberal fear tactics and voted for Obama twice. They have now changed their tune and are calling Obama the worst President in history and are calling for his removal. This is what happens when the gullible finally wake up and see this administration for what it really is - it is all about the lies. No one likes to be constantly lied to.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Confuzzled said:


> I do apologise for being offensive.
> 
> I do indeed know my "world" history and "personal" history. One's point of view varies as to what is amusing and what is not. I freely acknowledge your right to scorn me from your point of view. I reserve my right to a sense of humour ........ Please forgive this humble idiot. I'll tell the family what I have done and said and ask them if I am wicked.
> 
> ...


Sense of humor????? You are a bloody insensitive idiot. Ironic only in the sense that it was unexpected. But that is the least of it. Wicked???? I would say you are very stupid. Find some fascist site that would welcome you and your disgusting irony.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> Sense of humor????? You are a bloody insensitive idiot. Ironic only in the sense that it was unexpected. But that is the least of it. Wicked???? I would say you are very stupid. Find some fascist site that would welcome you and your disgusting irony.


Strongly agree, it is not irony but gross stupidity and insensitivity. Did you notice the tongue in cheek apology? She did not apologise to anyone who may have personal memories of the holocaust, she apologised to 'casual readers of the thread'.

Interesting fact though, on another thread someone spoke of a Clydesdale and you though they were referring to a ship. It appears that you have limited knowledge of horses also.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I have her in my sights.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You ally yourself with the Nazis, a new all-time low. Are you unaware? Surely you realize this will not make you friends ready to discuss issues.



Confuzzled said:


> Arbeit macht frei


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Strongly agree, it is not irony but gross stupidity and insensitivity. Did you notice the tongue in cheek apology? She did not apologise to anyone who may have personal memories of the holocaust, she apologised to 'casual readers of the thread'.
> 
> Interesting fact though, on another thread someone spoke of a Clydesdale and you though they were referring to a ship. It appears that you have limited knowledge of horses also.


How can we even begin to know if someone is trying to be humorous or ironic when a post solely consists of a phrase that is considered offensive.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I share a sense of humor, but I also feel there are some things that are not funny in any measure. For me (I am not Jewish) one is the Holocaust.

I accept your explanation. 'Apology' not yet.



Confuzzled said:


> I do apologise for being offensive.
> 
> I do indeed know my "world" history and "personal" history. One's point of view varies as to what is amusing and what is not. I freely acknowledge your right to scorn me from your point of view. I reserve my right to a sense of humour ........ Please forgive this humble idiot. I'll tell the family what I have done and said and ask them if I am wicked.
> 
> ...


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> You know me well enough to realize that I adore the bizarre. Go for it in a day or two if this doesn't catch on. It is so great that we can redo our mistakes on KP and not so easily in real life, including knitting.


Ah, yes. I am practicing editing myself for tact as I am well known by friends to be very tactless. I'll see how it goes. Maybe there will be a need for "Abandon all hope". One way or another, I'm trying to start a topic where various people can duke it out as in "War on Women" without automatically having to remember that that that topic is supposed to be a discussion about abortion. It's wandered a lot and it seems tome we could wander further with a new topic.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Already I have made a duplicate post. Ooopps.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The author knew, quickly responding with excuse not heart-felt apology. I knew.



MaidInBedlam said:


> How can we even begin to know if someone is trying to be humorous or ironic when a post solely consists of a phrase that is considered offensive.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> Chicago citizens have bought into the liberal fear tactics and voted for Obama twice. They have now changed their tune and are calling Obama the worst President in history and are calling for his removal. This is what happens when the gullible finally dollars to wake up and see this administration for what it really is - it is all about the lies. No one likes to be constantly lied to.


Well, I admit I voted for Obama twice. I don't think I'm entirely gullible though right now I'm pretty hot about President Obama requesting almost 4 billion dollars to deport children who have entered the country illegally. As I understand it, these children are fleeing a lot of desperate circumstances. Maybe they are also coming here as a way to help their families immigrate more easily.

Whatever the reasons for funding deportation, it seems this situation requires a humanitarian response. The news stories I've seen on TV show young people being housed in what look to me to be conditions that are worse than those required by the Geneva Convention for POWs.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Good grief! Another duplicate post...


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Some of our elite researchers have found this 'person' has made other stupid tho not offensive comments. So now we have to decide what level stupid she is.

Moran?
Idiot?
Imbecile?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm not sure I want to wander with this entire group. I used to think, not that long ago, that I could discuss anything with anyone. No more.



MaidInBedlam said:


> Ah, yes. I am practicing editing myself for tact as I am well known by friends to be very tactless. I'll see how it goes. Maybe there will be a need for "Abandon all hope". One way or another, I'm trying to start a topic where various people can duke it out as in "War on Women" without automatically having to remember t that that topic is supposed to be a discussion about abortion. It's wandered a lot and it seems tome we could wander further with a new topic.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

damemary said:


> You ally yourself with the Nazis, a new all-time low. Are you unaware? Surely you realize this will not make you friends ready to discuss issues.


Maybe the dreaded KPG is after us.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree regarding the immoral attitude towards refugee children.



MaidInBedlam said:


> Well, I admit I voted for Obama twice. I don't think I'm entirely gullible though right now I'm pretty hot about President Obama requesting almost 4 billion dollars to deport children who have entered the country illegally. As I understand it, these children are fleeing a lot of desperate circumstances. Maybe they are also coming here as a way to help their families immigrate more easily.
> 
> Whatever the reasons for funding deportation, it seems this situation requires a humanitarian response. The news stories I've seen on TV show young people being housed in what look to me to be conditions that are worse than those required by the Geneva Convention for POWs.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't dread KPG.



MaidInBedlam said:


> Maybe the dreaded KPG is after us.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Maid - who does Obama owe to agree to deporting these kids? Or who is putting pressure on him to do so?


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

damemary said:


> I'm not sure I want to wander with this entire group. I used to think, not that long ago, that I could discuss anything with anyone. No more.


WOW does get pretty difficult sometimes.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Maid - who does Obama owe to agree to deporting these kids? Or who is putting pressure on him to do so?


Good question. The President's reaction to children entering this country illegally doesn't seem to me to be a situation where the first solution is deportation. I wonder why no other alternatives have been fielded by anyone. At least that's how it seems. I can't think of any news reports, for example, that have made any suggestions about dealing with children illegally entering the US.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Some of our elite researchers have found this 'person' has made other stupid tho not offensive comments. So now we have to decide what level stupid she is.
> 
> Moran?
> Idiot?
> Imbecile?


Purposeful bumbler?


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

damemary said:


> I agree regarding the immoral attitude towards refugee children.


This is the first time I've seen someone use the word "refugee" to describe the children who have been entering the country lately. I think it's a much better to think of these children as refugees instead of criminals.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Confuzzled said:


> Arbeit macht frei


That is NOT funny - it is entirely out of order. I would ask for your apology to the descendents of those who were killed under that banner! The millions of them.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Well, I admit I voted for Obama twice. I don't think I'm entirely gullible though right now I'm pretty hot about President Obama requesting almost 4 billion dollars to deport children who have entered the country illegally. As I understand it, these children are fleeing a lot of desperate circumstances. Maybe they are also coming here as a way to help their families immigrate more easily.
> 
> Whatever the reasons for funding deportation, it seems this situation requires a humanitarian response. The news stories I've seen on TV show young people being housed in what look to me to be conditions that are worse than those required by the Geneva Convention for POWs.


Most of these cities were caught totally off guard regarding processing the illegal immigrants. Where were they to house them? They were scrambling to house, clothe, feed and give medical care to them. This is a situation that was/is preventable and will have severe consequences well into the future.

If you listen to the border patrol personnel, the children are coming here with pre-printed statements saying they are fleeing their countries. Really ?They are not being oppressed, their situation doesn't compare to what is going on in Syria, Nigeria or other central African countries. Please - They are coming here because once they put their feet on American soil, they WON'T be deported, it will be safe for them to stay. This is what they are being told in their countries. This is being proven correct. Once they are finished with the border crossing, they are given a piece of paper telling them to report to ICE in 15 days for a hearing. Only 20%, if that, will report for their hearings. The rest just vanish into our country. We, the taxpayer, get to pay for the illegal immigrants from then on, how lucky are we!!.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> I share a sense of humor, but I also feel there are some things that are not funny in any measure. For me (I am not Jewish) one is the Holocaust.
> 
> I accept your explanation. 'Apology' not yet.


Next time think before you post something so absolutely offensive and hurtful I am not at all sure whether you mean your apology -- It is not up to me to accept it - it is up to the survivors and descendants of those who lived or died during that time.


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## Mountain Stitches (May 25, 2014)

message sent to Admin requesting Confuzzled be counseled about the gross inappropriateness of her posting.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Mountain Stitches said:


> message sent to Admin requesting Confuzzled be counseled about the gross inappropriateness of her posting.


Thanks Mount. Good step.


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## Confuzzled (May 31, 2014)

joeysomma said:


> You are so right Galaxycraft. A newcomer made a comment without knowing the religion of the posters on this thread. They took a big offence, and decided to make a combined effort to run her off. They don't ever think about how much their comments might offend others.


I am the person in question. True, I did not know the religion of others. I completely and unreservedly apologise.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> You are so right Galaxycraft. A newcomer made a comment without knowing the religion of the posters on this thread. They took a big offence, and decided to make a combined effort to run her off. They don't ever think about how much their comments might offend others.


This comment is so offensive. Did the stupid idiot think for one moment how her post might offend others? J'suis une dame sans merci.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Chicago citizens have bought into the liberal fear tactics and voted for Obama twice. They have now changed their tune and are calling Obama the worst President in history and are calling for his removal. This is what happens when the gullible finally wake up and see this administration for what it really is - it is all about the lies. No one likes to be constantly lied to.


New Jersey is waking up to Chris Christie as the epitome of NJ politics as usual. Mixed feelings about his running for prez. Run, Chris, Run and NJ gets rid of you. Then hope Hillary eats him for breakfast. Of course she could get dreadful indigestion from it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> You are so right Galaxycraft. A newcomer made a comment without knowing the religion of the posters on this thread. They took a big offence, and decided to make a combined effort to run her off. They don't ever think about how much their comments might offend others.


A "comic" reference to Nazis is not offensive to anyone but Jews? It's good to know that. Actually, it's a pretty nauseating fact I didn't know about you until now.

But though that may be true for you, MIB and EveMCooke objected, and neither of them is Jewish.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> New Jersey is waking up to Chris Christie as the epitome of NJ politics as usual. Mixed feelings about his running for prez. Run, Chris, Run and NJ gets rid of you. Then hope Hillary eats him for breakfast. Of course she could get dreadful indigestion from it.


It's about time NJ caught on.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> A "comic" reference to Nazis is not offensive to anyone but Jews? It's good to know that. Actually, it's a pretty nauseating fact I didn't know about you until now.
> 
> But though that may be true for you, MIB and EveMCooke objected, and neither of them is Jewish.


I am not a Jew but it was extremely offensive to me as well.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Confuzzled said:


> I am the person in question. True, I did not know the religion of others. I completely and unreservedly apologise.


What difference would it have made if you'd known that some were Jewish? Would you have taken the trouble to hide your admiration of the Nazis?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I am not a Jew but it was extremely offensive to me as well.


I think it would be extremely offensive to any decent person.

Though apparently not to Joeysomma. Oh, right, I said "decent person."


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

The editorial board of the NJ Star Ledger presented the following column, confirming Ruth Bader Ginsburg's warning about the slippery slope the 5 old men oiled. I am old enough to remember quotas on how many Jews would be allowed to enroll in particular colleges and demeaning discrimination against Black people. I read about businesses posting signs that Irish need not apply for jobs when they were refugees here from famine. I remember how US citizens of Japanese descent were treated during the War. We have spent recent decades overcoming the shameful history of discrimination, with miles to go on behalf of Native Americans, the LGBT community, and women among others. This SCOTUS may unravel all that progress.

"More Hobby Lobby fallout, this time for gays: Editorial

When five male justices on the U.S. Supreme Court decided that any business owner with a religious qualm about birth control can refuse to cover it in the health plans of all his female employees, they assured us that this was a very limited ruling. It would apply to lady pills and unchaste women, only.

But in Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburgs dissent, she argued that in fact, this slippery slope is steep. And she was immediately proved right. On the very first day after the Hobby Lobby decision was handed down, religious leaders sent a letter to President Obama, doubling down on their right to discriminate not just against women, but against gay people, too.

Scary thing is, these are groups that are generally friendly to the Obama administration, such as Catholics for Obama. So this stampede has only just begun.

Michael Wear, the Washington-based consultant who spearheaded the letter-writing effort, assured the New York Times that "were not trying to support crazy claims of religious privilege."

Heres an example of what these religious leaders do not consider crazy: A Catholic charity group that believes sex outside heterosexual marriage is a sin, and doesnt think it should be denied government funding because it refuses to employ someone who is openly gay.

Give us a break. Should the government also give public money to an employer who fires a single woman because she becomes pregnant? Or a married man because he gets divorced?

These groups want all the government funding they can receive, but dont want to abide by the rules that everyone else has to. They are calling upon President Obama to insert a "robust religious exemption" into a planned executive order to prohibit federal contractors from discriminating against LGBT people. Why? So they can take money from taxpayers, including LGBT people, and discriminate against them, too.

The backdrop is that Congress has failed to act to ban anti-LGBT workplace discrimination nationwide. Some states, including New Jersey, already have such laws. But Obamas order would extend them to federal contractors in states that still dont.

Keep in mind that publicly funded religious groups are already allowed to consider someones religious beliefs when making hiring decisions. But thats apparently not enough. Now these groups, including Catholic Charities and the evangelical aid organization World Relief, want to make sure taxpayers still support them when they fire someone who is gay, too.

Incredibly, Wear paints this cause as a modern-day civil rights movement. To argue that it violates your civil rights to have to extend civil rights to other people is ludicrous. Discrimination cloaked in the language of a religious exemption is still discrimination."

http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2014/07/more_hobby_lobby_fallout_this_time_for_gays_editorial.html#incart_river


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> You ally yourself with the Nazis, a new all-time low. Are you unaware? Surely you realize this will not make you friends ready to discuss issues.


That Nazi comment demonstrates either monumental ignorance or monumental insensitivity. The response to being called on it demonstrates monumental arrogance. Whatta gal/guy/whatever.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> Maid - who does Obama owe to agree to deporting these kids? Or who is putting pressure on him to do so?


Good thought. Wonder what the trade off would be?

There does seem to be a concerted effort to undermine the credibility and the economy of the US to suddenly inundate our borders with these poor refugees. Have conditions for these children suddenly become more unbearable than they had been? Or is there something going on behind the scenes using the children as pawns in an ugly game? The timing just before a national election goes full steam ahead seems fishy too.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> You are so right Galaxycraft. A newcomer made a comment without knowing the religion of the posters on this thread. They took a big offence, and decided to make a combined effort to run her off. They don't ever think about how much their comments might offend others.


It doesn't involve being careful not to say things in front of a particular ethnos not to offend them. I cringe when people say ugly things about Black people, LGBT people, or other groups suffering overt or covert discrimination. I cringe at Polish jokes, Italian jokes, and other jokes implying people from particular countries are inferior or stupid.

I am sure you would take offense if people started calling football fans and Green Bay Packers fans in particular worthless and stupid. But evoking a phrase associated with the annihilation of a people, in this case of Jews, the Romany, and gays, is beyond offensive.


----------



## Mountain Stitches (May 25, 2014)

Under the First Amendment, Confuzzled does have the right to free speech, even offensive free speech. Equally, we have the right to say her comment was offensive.

Did anyone else notice she apologized? 
_I am the person in question. True, I did not know the religion of others. I completely and unreservedly apologise._

Thank you for the apology, Confuzzled.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> The editorial board of the NJ Star Ledger presented the following column, confirming Ruth Bader Ginsburg's warning about the slippery slope the 5 old men oiled. I am old enough to remember quotas on how many Jews would be allowed to enroll in particular colleges and demeaning discrimination against Black people. I read about businesses posting signs that Irish need not apply for jobs when they were refugees here from famine. I remember how US citizens of Japanese descent were treated during the War. We have spent recent decades overcoming the shameful history of discrimination, with miles to go on behalf of Native Americans, the LGBT community, and women among others. This SCOTUS may unravel all that progress.
> 
> "More Hobby Lobby fallout, this time for gays: Editorial
> 
> ...


Bravo for the Star Ledger!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> A "comic" reference to Nazis is not offensive to anyone but Jews? It's good to know that. Actually, it's a pretty nauseating fact I didn't know about you until now.
> 
> But though that may be true for you, MIB and EveMCooke objected, and neither of them is Jewish.


I like Mrs. Somma and nauseating in the same sentence.


----------



## Confuzzled (May 31, 2014)

Mountain Stitches said:


> Under the First Amendment, Confuzzled does have the right to free speech, even offensive free speech. Equally, we have the right to say her comment was offensive.
> 
> Did anyone else notice she apologized?
> _I am the person in question. True, I did not know the religion of others. I completely and unreservedly apologise._
> ...


My last word is thank you


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I read the German words "Work makes Free" since I understand German, nothing else.
> 
> MIB said "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here". same thought


What? I don't get this.

"Work makes free" is nothing like "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here." How is it the same thought?

I understood the German, too. I also know that those words were posted at the entrances to the Nazi death camps. So do a lot of other people here. Are you telling me you had no idea of how that phrase was used?

Then you're right in saying you know "nothing else."


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I read the German words "Work makes Free" since I understand German, nothing else.
> 
> MIB said "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here". same thought


Same thought? Except the locales and intentions of these comments. But you are correct - you may understand German and certainly nothing else.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Confuzzled said:


> My last word is thank you


Hope returns to my darkened heart. She states "My last word". Let us pray that it is for eternity.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> Most of these cities were caught totally off guard regarding processing the illegal immigrants. Where were they to house them? They were scrambling to house, clothe, feed and give medical care to them. This is a situation that was/is preventable and will have severe consequences well into the future.
> 
> If you listen to the border patrol personnel, the children are coming here with pre-printed statements saying they are fleeing their countries. Really ?They are not being oppressed, their situation doesn't compare to what is going on in Syria, Nigeria or other central African countries. Please - They are coming here because once they put their feet on American soil, they WON'T be deported, it will be safe for them to stay. This is what they are being told in their countries. This is being proven correct. Once they are finished with the border crossing, they are given a piece of paper telling them to report to ICE in 15 days for a hearing. Only 20%, if that, will report for their hearings. The rest just vanish into our country. We, the taxpayer, get to pay for the illegal immigrants from then on, how lucky are we!!.


Indeed, someone has to pay one way or another for the care of these refugee children who seem to be pouring into the country. "Someone" usually mean the American tax payers. I have to wonder if this has been under-reported for a while and now we're hearing about it because it's becoming a big problem.

I also wonder if these children are being sent here ahead of their parents and other family so they can assist their families in coming into this country legally. After all, isn't it good for children to live with their parents? Maybe we're seeing the reverse of adults coming here illegally just to have their babies born in the US.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Mountain Stitches said:


> Under the First Amendment, Confuzzled does have the right to free speech, even offensive free speech. Equally, we have the right to say her comment was offensive.
> 
> Did anyone else notice she apologized?
> _I am the person in question. True, I did not know the religion of others. I completely and unreservedly apologise._
> ...


She apologized for saying it in a place where Jewish people might read it. That sounds more like an apology to bigots who want to hide their bigotry, not to the people hurt by her words.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Same thought? Except the locales and intentions of these comments. But you are correct - you may understand German and certainly nothing else.


GMTA


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> You are so right Galaxycraft. A newcomer made a comment without knowing the religion of the posters on this thread. They took a big offence, and decided to make a combined effort to run her off. They don't ever think about how much their comments might offend ohthers.


I don't think this is just a matter of religion. A lot of people went to the camps and the ovens without being Jewish, though they form a large majority. I think we're talking about a phrase we would rather see placed in it's historical context to prevent the kind of misunderstanding.

This topic is only 5 pages long and been in existence for a day. I don't think there's been time yet to form "pet plaers" or anything at all like that. Anyone who comes here is a newbie.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> GMTA


What does GMTA mean?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> What does GMTA mean?


Great Minds Think Alike


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Great Minds Think Alike


That goes without saying.

Does my being mean on this thread rather than my affable self mean I am my Evil Republican Twin?


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Same thought? Except the locales and intentions of these comments. But you are correct - you may understand German and certainly nothing else.


"Abandon hope, all ye who enter here" is the sign Dante says hangs at the entrance to Hell in his book The Inferno Since the camps were hellish and exceedingly hopeless places it does seem that these phrases express the same thought, though not originally intended to be. I doubt Hitler was thinking of The Divine Comedy when he came up with his sign for the entrances to the camps.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> That goes without saying.
> 
> Does my being mean on this thread rather than my affable self mean I am my Evil Republican Twin?


Not at all. Anyone who wants to be effective can sometimes be mean.

Your "affable self" isn't always that affable, either.


----------



## Mountain Stitches (May 25, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> She apologized for saying it in a place where Jewish people might read it. That sounds more like an apology to bigots who want to hide their bigotry, not to the people hurt by her words.


With complete respect, I acknowledge your right to interpret Confuzzled's apology through the filter of your knowledge and experience.

My choice is to accept it at face value and watch her postings from this time forward. If she sees my response as condoning further offensive posts, then I will know her to be a person without compassion, sincerity, wisdom or honor.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here" is the sign Dante says hangs at the entrance to Hell in his book The Inferno Since the camps were hellish and exceedingly hopeless places it does seem that these phrases express the same thought, though not originally intended to be. I doubt Hitler was thinking of The Divine Comedy when he came up with his sign for the entrances to the camps.


one is literature; one is history. Do they really seem so much alike?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> That goes without saying.
> 
> Does my being mean on this thread rather than my affable self mean I am my Evil Republican Twin?


not in my book. You had every reason to be upset in my opinion. Anyway, I am going to take a break. Will see you all tomorrow.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Mountain Stitches said:


> With complete respect, I acknowledge your right to interpret Confuzzled's apology through the filter of your knowledge and experience.
> 
> My choice is to accept it at face value and watch her postings from this time forward. If she sees my response as condoning further offensive posts, then I will know her to be a person without compassion, sincerity, wisdom or honor.


You may be right in giving her the benefit of the doubt. It's certainly the more positive way to view her.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> one is literature; one is history. Do they really seem so much alike?


Exactly. There's no comparison between the two.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Republicans. They hate anyone who isn't just like them.



SQM said:


> Maid - who does Obama owe to agree to deporting these kids? Or who is putting pressure on him to do so?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

LOLL, Current Events, D&P, etc. Back to knitting and emails.



MaidInBedlam said:


> WOW does get pretty difficult sometimes.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Have you seen the 'Americans' meeting the buses of refugee children with ugly posters, screams & threats refusing to 'allow' the buses to enter their towns? Proud to be an American? NOT.



MaidInBedlam said:


> Good question. The President's reaction to children entering this country illegally doesn't seem to me to be a situation where the first solution is deportation. I wonder why no other alternatives have been fielded by anyone. At least that's how it seems. I can't think of any news reports, for example, that have made any suggestions about dealing with children illegally entering the US.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Me too. That's how I think of them. What happened to "Give us your poor and huddled masses yearning to breathe free?" Or is that just for statues?



MaidInBedlam said:


> This is the first time I've seen someone use the word "refugee" to describe the children who have been entering the country lately. I think it's a much better to think of these children as refugees instead of criminals.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The 'casual readers' here need no apology.



Designer1234 said:


> That is NOT funny - it is entirely out of order. I would ask for your apology to the descendents of those who were killed under that banner! The millions of them.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Next time think before you post something so absolutely offensive and hurtful I am not at all sure whether you mean your apology -- It is not up to me to accept it - it is up to the survivors and descendants of those who lived or died during that time.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Good thought. I wonder if we will hear a result.



Mountain Stitches said:


> message sent to Admin requesting Confuzzled be counseled about the gross inappropriateness of her posting.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I have no wish to criticize. I accept your wish to apologize.

But to further educate all, people do not have to be any certain religious persuasion to take offense to the Holocaust. Gypsies, Jews, artists, children etc were among the 6 M killed by the Nazis. Some lived with the memory of having their grandparents, parents, siblings torn from their arms never to be seen again. Empathy only requires that you put yourself in their position.

Now, we will try to go on from here.



Confuzzled said:


> I am the person in question. True, I did not know the religion of others. I completely and unreservedly apologise.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Interesting to hear that Elizabeth Warren is becoming a good speaker and fund-raiser for other candidates.



MarilynKnits said:


> New Jersey is waking up to Chris Christie as the epitome of NJ politics as usual. Mixed feelings about his running for prez. Run, Chris, Run and NJ gets rid of you. Then hope Hillary eats him for breakfast. Of course she could get dreadful indigestion from it.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm not Jewish either.



Poor Purl said:


> A "comic" reference to Nazis is not offensive to anyone but Jews? It's good to know that. Actually, it's a pretty nauseating fact I didn't know about you until now.
> 
> But though that may be true for you, MIB and EveMCooke objected, and neither of them is Jewish.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

This was obvious from the beginning and we haven't heard the last of it.



MarilynKnits said:


> The editorial board of the NJ Star Ledger presented the following column, confirming Ruth Bader Ginsburg's warning about the slippery slope the 5 old men oiled. I am old enough to remember quotas on how many Jews would be allowed to enroll in particular colleges and demeaning discrimination against Black people. I read about businesses posting signs that Irish need not apply for jobs when they were refugees here from famine. I remember how US citizens of Japanese descent were treated during the War. We have spent recent decades overcoming the shameful history of discrimination, with miles to go on behalf of Native Americans, the LGBT community, and women among others. This SCOTUS may unravel all that progress.
> 
> "More Hobby Lobby fallout, this time for gays: Editorial
> 
> ...


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> "We" are not the only ones who do what you're describing. I was going to post this on WOW, but thought I'd try it here. Maybe the wild rumpus will move over here and duke it out instead of misusing WOW.
> 
> This was on FFD&P: "...at this point in time I think the left is attacking Joey because it fills a void for them. They are all free to leave the thread and stay on their liberal threads, but do not. Whenever Joey posts an article, they all come out in force and attack. It's not about abortion, I don't think the lefties really care about abortion. It's about the one against the many. It's about trying to take Joey down and getting her to leave KP. One less Republican/Conservative is always a good thing. The one thing they didn't count on is that Joey is strong and will fight back and defend what she feels strongly about. It's been one round after another and Joey is still standing and standing STRONG. I equate this to Joey being Israel and the lefties being Hamas. Hamas will lose. That my opinion of what is going on."
> 
> ...


How is gossiping between threads a current event?
Just appears to be another thread created to bash people that disagree with you and make it harder for them to defend themselves.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Really? You do have a different way of thinking. Comfortable with it? No twinge of need to reconsider?



joeysomma said:


> I read the German words "Work makes Free" since I understand German, nothing else.
> 
> MIB said "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here". same thought


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I acknowledged and accepted the apology and explained empathy.



Mountain Stitches said:


> Under the First Amendment, Confuzzled does have the right to free speech, even offensive free speech. Equally, we have the right to say her comment was offensive.
> 
> Did anyone else notice she apologized?
> _I am the person in question. True, I did not know the religion of others. I completely and unreservedly apologise._
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> What? I don't get this.
> 
> "Work makes free" is nothing like "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here." How is it the same thought?
> 
> ...


Perhaps you mean to stop at nothing?


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> That goes without saying.
> 
> Does my being mean on this thread rather than my affable self mean I am my Evil Republican Twin?


chuckle


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'm not Jewish either.


I know. Your sleek blonde hair gives that away.

Seriously, I posted my message immediately after seeing MIB's and Eve's responses. Yours was further down the line.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Indeed, someone has to pay one way or another for the care of these refugee children who seem to be pouring into the country. "Someone" usually mean the American tax payers. I have to wonder if this has been under-reported for a while and now we're hearing about it because it's becoming a big problem.
> 
> I also wonder if these children are being sent here ahead of their parents and other family so they can assist their families in coming into this country legally. After all, isn't it good for children to live with their parents? Maybe we're seeing the reverse of adults coming here illegally just to have their babies born in the US.


We have needed regulations on immigration forever. Migrant workers have come across our borders and enabled our country's agricultural industry to grow and thrive. The workers got slave wages and children worked the fields to feed families. Education? For decades.

Some countries still see the USA as the land of opportunity.

Crossing the border in summer (105+ degrees daytime. No water except what you carry. A gallon a day or more per child.) Somehow I don't see a family scraping together thousands of dollars to trust someone to take their child across the border unless they feared for their lives in their country. I may be wrong. They may be trying to take advantage, but I cannot bring myself to refuse these children.

The USA has caused some problems. And NO, it is not President Obama's fault. IMHO


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> FYI: the phrase "Arbeit macht frei" was in use before the Nazi's claimed it.  Just because it was used by the Nazi's does not mean it is derogatory.
> 
> _The expression comes from the title of a novel by German philologist Lorenz Diefenbach, Arbeit macht frei: Erzählung von Lorenz Diefenbach (1873), in which gamblers and fraudsters find the path to virtue through labour. The phrase was also used in French ("le travail rend libre!") by Auguste Forel, a Swiss ant scientist, neuroanatomist and psychiatrist, in his "Fourmis de la Suisse" ("Ants of Switzerland") (1920). In 1922, the Deutsche Schulverein of Vienna, an ethnic nationalist "protective" organization of Germans within the Austrian empire, printed membership stamps with the phrase Arbeit macht frei. It was adopted in 1928 by the Weimar government as a slogan extolling the effects of their desired policy of large-scale public works programmes to end unemployment. This use of the phrase was continued by the Nazi Party when it came to power in 1933._
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeit_macht_frei


You have got to be kidding!. It became a disgrace and derogatory the first second it was posted on the Gates of the Concentration camp or camps. It should be removed from dictionaries and speech for what it stands for. I thought that you would at least feel some sort of empathy for those who were loaded on trains and taken through the gates to be murdered ,with this slogan on them. Shame on you. Until now I thought you were just strong in your Political beliefs which I didn't agree with -- now I have no interest in even reading your posts.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> You have got to be kidding!. It became a disgrace and derogatory the first second it was posted on the Gates of the Concentration camp or camps. It should be removed from dictionaries and speech for what it stands for. I thought that you would at least feel some sort of empathy for those who were loaded on trains and taken through the gates to be murdered ,with this slogan on it. Shame on you. Until now I thought you were just strong in your Political beliefs which I didn't agree with -- now I have no interest in even reading your posts.


Republicans have made fun of empathy; it's not one of their character traits. And whatever protectiveness Joey may feel for the unborn doesn't carry over to the already born.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> How is gossiping between threads a current event?
> Just appears to be another thread created to bash people that disagree with you and make it harder for them to defend themselves.


Have you looked at the actual posts, or just the first one? There's a discussion about the child refugees coming up from Latin America; there was a discussion about "Arbeit macht frei" until Joey inserted herself into it. Nobody was gossiping about other threads.

Have you ever apologized for your undeserved criticism of people you disagreed with? This would be a good time.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Perhaps you mean to stop at nothing?


No, apparently Joey understands German but nothing else.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> FYI: the phrase "Arbeit macht frei" was in use before the Nazi's claimed it. Just because it was used by the Nazi's does not mean it is derogatory.
> 
> _The expression comes from the title of a novel by German philologist Lorenz Diefenbach, Arbeit macht frei: Erzählung von Lorenz Diefenbach (1873), in which gamblers and fraudsters find the path to virtue through labour. The phrase was also used in French ("le travail rend libre!") by Auguste Forel, a Swiss ant scientist, neuroanatomist and psychiatrist, in his "Fourmis de la Suisse" ("Ants of Switzerland") (1920). In 1922, the Deutsche Schulverein of Vienna, an ethnic nationalist "protective" organization of Germans within the Austrian empire, printed membership stamps with the phrase Arbeit macht frei. It was adopted in 1928 by the Weimar government as a slogan extolling the effects of their desired policy of large-scale public works programmes to end unemployment. This use of the phrase was continued by the Nazi Party when it came to power in 1933._
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeit_macht_frei


And the symbol the swastika had a more benign connotation before the nazis adopted it as their symbol. It has become the visual symbol of hatred, murder, bigotry, and general swinishness (apologies to Porky, Petunia, and Babe). People with decent instincts do not use it as a casual decoration. The slogan may have had equally benign beginnings. But when it was adopted by the murderers and became a symbol of their atrocities, it also lost its previous meaning.

For people who do not believe in evolution, the original meanings of words and symbols may not have changed. But with the passage of time the meanings of hot button words just in English have changed radically. Words like democratic, conservative, gay, among others. I am sure there are words and phrases in all languages commonly used by large numbers of people which have taken on new meanings, some kinder, some uglier. There are words, the use of which at the wrong time or in the wrong neighborhood, can get a person very dead or very beaten up.

If you have a soupcon of empathy you will try to understand. But if you are a person who uses words to wound others, that is on you.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> *The words, themselves, have hurt no one. It was the Nazi's that did, Just like a gun by itself, has hurt no one. It is the person using it that kills. Get real*!


The words themselves have hurt everyone who had a parent, child, relative or friend killed in the holocaust. Not just Jews. 
How can you believe otherwise?

enough -- I have had my say -


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The words, themselves, have hurt no one. It was the Nazi's that did, Just like a gun by itself, has hurt no one. It is the person using it that kills. Get real!


If you have no concept of how words can be symbolic substitutes for the horrors with which they are associated, you are a bigger clod than I thought possible.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The words, themselves, have hurt no one. It was the Nazi's that did, Just like a gun by itself, has hurt no one. It is the person using it that kills. Get real!


The Sticks and Stones defense, right. Similar to the NRA defense.

Adopting what became a Nazi slogan long before you were born would indicate some kind of identification with them. Unless you've already read those other sources in Wikipedia, the only relevant ones are the Nazi ones.

Anyway, the only way the words got on here was by someone posting them (and someone else repeating them), so there _were_ people using them. They didn't jump onto my screen all by themselves.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Republicans have made fun of empathy; it's not one of their character traits. And whatever protectiveness Joey may feel for the unborn doesn't carry over to the already born.


Or to the victims of murder who were already born and contributing to society's betterment.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> If you have no concept of how words can be symbolic substitutes for the horrors with which they are associated, you are a bigger clod than I thought possible.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Can you sing like your avatar?



Poor Purl said:


> I know. Your sleek blonde hair gives that away.
> 
> Seriously, I posted my message immediately after seeing MIB's and Eve's responses. Yours was further down the line.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Can you sing like your avatar?


I wish. But you can probably sing like your avatar.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> FYI: the phrase "Arbeit macht frei" was in use before the Nazi's claimed it. Just because it was used by the Nazi's does not mean it is derogatory.
> 
> _The expression comes from the title of a novel by German philologist Lorenz Diefenbach, Arbeit macht frei: Erzählung von Lorenz Diefenbach (1873), in which gamblers and fraudsters find the path to virtue through labour. The phrase was also used in French ("le travail rend libre!") by Auguste Forel, a Swiss ant scientist, neuroanatomist and psychiatrist, in his "Fourmis de la Suisse" ("Ants of Switzerland") (1920). In 1922, the Deutsche Schulverein of Vienna, an ethnic nationalist "protective" organization of Germans within the Austrian empire, printed membership stamps with the phrase Arbeit macht frei. It was adopted in 1928 by the Weimar government as a slogan extolling the effects of their desired policy of large-scale public works programmes to end unemployment. This use of the phrase was continued by the Nazi Party when it came to power in 1933._
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeit_macht_frei


What does it make it? A way to encourage people off of welfare? The only freedom the slaves in the camps got was the freedom death gives. Stick with knitting simple. Any thinking is beyond your skill set.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think I'm tone deaf.



Poor Purl said:


> I wish. But you can probably sing like your avatar.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I think I'm tone deaf.


I think Grace was, too. Have you ever seen High Society?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The words, themselves, have hurt no one. It was the Nazi's that did, Just like a gun by itself, has hurt no one. It is the person using it that kills. Get real!


Have you thought that the words are very hurtful and act as a too real reminder to people?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sadly, I don't remember. I guess I'm not aging well. hugs



Poor Purl said:


> I think Grace was, too. Have you ever seen High Society?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

High Society is a musical with songs by Cole Porter, starring Grace Kelly, Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, and Louis Armstrong. Grace sings with Bing, dances with Frank, and is wonderful. Here she sings:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> Good thought. I wonder if we will hear a result.


I also send a similar message to Admin, through the 'report issue button' when I read the post. I am glad I was not the only person to report the post.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Lovely. Thanks. She really lights up the screen, and steals the scene with small movements.



Poor Purl said:


> High Society is a musical with songs by Cole Porter, starring Grace Kelly, Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, and Louis Armstrong. Grace sings with Bing, dances with Frank, and is wonderful. Here she sings:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Lovely. Thanks. She really lights up the screen, and steals the scene with small movements.


She does. I've heard her called _luminous_.


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## Lostie (May 2, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> There are several topics in General Chit-Chat that address current events, social, political, and/or religious. These topics ramble through a lot of different subjects. Sometimes it's satisfyingly diverse and interesting. Sometimes things get pretty heated.
> 
> C'mon in, if you like. Bring your interests here and discuss them with a bunch of different people with differing points of view. Try not to step too hard on anyone you radically disagree with.


My immediate reaction to this invitation on seeing it was to join in. Scanning through the thread, I decided best not.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> The words, themselves, have hurt no one. It was the Nazi's that did, Just like a gun by itself, has hurt no one. It is the person using it that kills. Get real!


joeysomma
we know, if Hitler was here and run as a Republican you would vote for him. What a lovely person you turned out to be! Bless you.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> one is literature; one is history. Do they really seem so much alike?


Alike as ideas, but not as realities, though, in part, literature is informed by history


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> FYI: the phrase "Arbeit macht frei" was in use before the Nazi's claimed it. Just because it was used by the Nazi's does not mean it is derogatory.
> 
> _The expression comes from the title of a novel by German philologist Lorenz Diefenbach, Arbeit macht frei: Erzählung von Lorenz Diefenbach (1873), in which gamblers and fraudsters find the path to virtue through labour. The phrase was also used in French ("le travail rend libre!") by Auguste Forel, a Swiss ant scientist, neuroanatomist and psychiatrist, in his "Fourmis de la Suisse" ("Ants of Switzerland") (1920). In 1922, the Deutsche Schulverein of Vienna, an ethnic nationalist "protective" organization of Germans within the Austrian empire, printed membership stamps with the phrase Arbeit macht frei. It was adopted in 1928 by the Weimar government as a slogan extolling the effects of their desired policy of large-scale public works programmes to end unemployment. This use of the phrase was continued by the Nazi Party when it came to power in 1933._
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeit_macht_frei


joeysomma
Have you NO decency at all? Trying to cover your ugliness by citing others who used the phrase? There are hundreds of ways to say what this phrase says but you had to pick this one which reminds the World of Hitler's atrocities. You are a Jewel of a dark kind. Again I have no doubt that you worship Satan as your God, no doubt at all.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> joeysomma
> we know, if Hitler was here and run as a Republican you would vote for him. What a lovely person you turned out to be! Bless you.


Huck, for all we know Hitler never killed anyone himself. He just said the words that sent the SS to do the killing. So words _do_ hurt people.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> How is gossiping between threads a current event?
> Just appears to be another thread created to bash people that disagree with you and make it harder for them to defend themselves.


Gossiping between threads is a bad idea. I wanted to address what someone had posted on another thread and didn't do enough to make the post that concerned me as anonymous as I should have. I'm sorry for that, and certainly didn't and don't want this to be a topic devoted to bashing anyone on.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> FYI: the phrase "Arbeit macht frei" was in use before the Nazi's claimed it. Just because it was used by the Nazi's does not mean it is derogatory.


Nobody's talking about it being "derogatory," which it obviously isn't. But because the Nazis used it in the worst possible way (at the entrance to forced labor camps and death camps), it became linked to them, and since WWII most people have seen it only in that connection. Which makes it a reminder of a very dark time for several groups of people, not just those of a specific religion, and some very brave individuals who died with them.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Gossiping between threads is a bad idea. I wanted to address what someone had posted on another thread and didn't do enough to make the post that concerned me as anonymous as I should have. I'm sorry for that, and certainly didn't and don't want this to be a topic to bash anyone on.


Nobody else thinks of it as gossiping or bashing. The person who should be apologizing is not you, but whoever used those descriptions originally.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I know I promised I would not post an abortion article on this thread. But then I did not expect the outrage over 3 words associated with the German Holocaust. Why don't you get as outraged over the Holocaust that is happening in this country every day. 11 million were killed by the Nazi's, 1 million of them children in Germany. More than 5 times that amount have been killed in this country. All of them totally innocent. Do any of you care? I think not!
> 
> You are more interested in bashing people over 3 words than the death of innocent children. You are a sorry lot, indeed.


It's possible for intelligent people to be upset about more than one thing. Somebody here used the phrase _Arbeit macht frei_ and you defended it. If you're being "bashed," it's because you were insensitive, and still are, as far as I can tell.

The abortions that you're concerned with are an entirely different matter. They may upset people just as much, but they were not the subject under discussion. I think you bring them up every time you say something that is not justifiable, so you never have to say you're sorry.


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## Mountain Stitches (May 25, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> It's possible for intelligent people to be upset about more than one thing. Somebody here used the phrase _Arbeit macht frei_ and you defended it. If you're being "bashed," it's because you were insensitive, and still are, as far as I can tell.
> 
> The abortions that you're concerned with are an entirely different matter. They may upset people just as much, but they were not the subject under discussion. I think you bring them up every time you say something that is not justifiable, so you never have to say you're sorry.


You hit that nail squarely on the head. She sees herself as a martyr for the anti-abortion cause and will always attempt to validate her behavior, no matter how bizarre or twisted because "it is for the cause". I doubt anything you say would persuade her to feel shame for any of her postings.

Adding: my choice is to not respond any further to her. It's a waste of my time.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Mountain Stitches said:


> You hit that nail squarely on the head. She sees herself as a martyr for the anti-abortion cause and will always attempt to validate her behavior, no matter how bizarre or twisted because "it is for the cause". I doubt anything you say would persuade her to feel shame for any of her postings.


Thank you, Mountain Stitches. I've never seen her apologize for anything, so you're probably right: she's very self-righteous and incapable of shame. And now she can complain about being bashed even though she brought it all on herself.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I do believe the title of this thread is "Current Events." What is more current than the babies that are killed at this minute than an event in history 70 years old?
> 
> I will never be sorry about trying to stop the murder of babies.


Nothing is more current than what is still happening, but that doesn't cancel out your insensitivity. Again, you bring up abortion whenever your back is against the wall and you can't wiggle out of the dumb things you're saying.

Not to mention your total lack of comprehension that many religions do not regard abortion as murder and therefore you're the one doing the bashing.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Huck, for all we know Hitler never killed anyone himself. He just said the words that sent the SS to do the killing. So words _do_ hurt people.


Poor Purl
you are correct, he was too much of a coward to dirty his hands directly but used others to carry out his monster deeds, and someone has joeysomma marching for them


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Could we please stop responding so personally to a single individual who is never going to change?


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## Mountain Stitches (May 25, 2014)

I would prefer a world without the need for abortions. Until the day comes when all babies are wanted and pregnancy is no longer ever a threat to a mother's life, I want a woman to have a legal choice. I participate in a group counseling women about options other than abortion. 

I never had a chance to meet one of my aunts. At seventeen she was raped, impregnated and forced by my grandfather to have an illegal abortion for the sake of family honor. She bled out in excruciating pain because her father would not take her to a doctor. Family honor meant more to him than his daughter's life. It does not get more screwed up than that.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Could we please stop responding so personally to a single individual who is never going to change?


Okay. But it would be nice if she'd stop trying to either justify the unjustifiable or change the subject.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Mountain Stitches said:


> I would prefer a world without the need for abortions. Until the day comes when all babies are wanted and pregnancy is no longer ever a threat to a mother's life, I want a woman to have a legal choice. I participate in a group counseling women about options other than abortion.
> 
> I never had a chance to meet one of my aunts. At seventeen she was raped, impregnated and forced by my grandfather to have an illegal abortion for the sake of family honor. She bled out in excruciating pain because her father would not take her to a doctor. Family honor meant more to him than his daughter's life. It does not get more screwed up than that.


What a terrible story, and a terrible thing to have happened to a young girl. We have to make certain that kind of death never happens again.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I know I promised I would not post an abortion article on this thread. But then I did not expect the outrage over 3 words associated with the German Holocaust. Why don't you get as outraged over the Holocaust that is happening in this country every day. 11 million were killed by the Nazi's, 1 million of them children in Germany. More than 5 times that amount have been killed in this country. All of them totally innocent. Do any of you care? I think not!
> 
> You are more interested in bashing people over 3 words than the death of innocent children. You are a sorry lot, indeed.


So tired of your insensitivity. As been mentioned time and time again, once the birth is over, you do not give a care for the child's quality of lives. How can you equate a missed period (in an early abortion) to the slaughter of millions who were alive? I don't want to write on. It would be only to heap insults on you.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

I've probably said this a million times but I'll say it again. Whenever we find sufficient archaeological evidence of human civilization going back say 50 million years, to cover humans who were genetically identical to us, we find evidence that women have sought and used abortifacients. We also discover that we've been killing each other for one or another stupid reason which boils down to saying "We do it because we can."

All of which is to say we know what we are capable of. Some of the things we could do are things we shouldn't do. We're not very good at modifying our behavior. At least, if we remember our history we might remember how easy it is repeat it.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I've probably said this a million times but I'll say it again. Whenever we find sufficient archaeological evidence of human civilization going back say 50 million years, to cover humans who were genetically identical to us, we find evidence that women have sought and used abortifacients. We also discover that we've been killing each other for one or another stupid reason which boils down to saying "We do it because we can."
> 
> All of which is to say we know what we are capable of. Some of the things we could do are things we shouldn't do. We're not very good at modifying our behavior. At least, if we remember our history we might remember how easy it is repeat it.


Our Maid is very smart today. Brava for the good post.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Our Maid is very smart today. Brava for the good post.


Thanks. I'd give that a thumbs up but for some reason I'm not seeing KP's emoticons.
.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> I know I promised I would not post an abortion article on this thread. But then I did not expect the outrage over 3 words associated with the German Holocaust. Why don't you get as outraged over the Holocaust that is happening in this country every day. 11 million were killed by the Nazi's, 1 million of them children in Germany. More than 5 times that amount have been killed in this country. All of them totally innocent. Do any of you care? I think not!
> 
> You are more interested in bashing people over 3 words than the death of innocent children. You are a sorry lot, indeed.


joeysomma
go and feed the starving, they have been begging for half a century for food, why your absence there. We are doing our part and always wonder why you don't. I know, talk is cheaper and easier.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Indeed, someone has to pay one way or another for the care of these refugee children who seem to be pouring into the country. "Someone" usually mean the American tax payers. I have to wonder if this has been under-reported for a while and now we're hearing about it because it's becoming a big problem.
> 
> I also wonder if these children are being sent here ahead of their parents and other family so they can assist their families in coming into this country legally. After all, isn't it good for children to live with their parents? Maybe we're seeing the reverse of adults coming here illegally just to have their babies born in the US.


Under-reported -NO. Not reported - YES. The children coming from Central America has been going on for years. It has nearly tripled since October of last year. Why should we have to pay for these illegal immigrants? This is a totally preventable situation of which this administration is doing nothing to prevent. They are definitely allowing it to happen/continue.

If the children are sent here first who is sponsoring them? How are they able to support themselves? The answers are no one and they can't support themselves. - as our laws demand. We, the taxpayer, have to do that. I doubt very much that their parents and family members are going to come here legally.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> Under-reported -NO. Not reported - YES. The children coming from Central America has been going on for years. It has nearly tripled since October of last year. Why should we have to pay for these illegal immigrants? This is a totally preventable situation of which this administration is doing nothing to prevent. They are definitely allowing it to happen/continue.
> 
> If the children are sent here first who is sponsoring them? How are they able to support themselves? The answers are no one and they can't support themselves. - as our laws demand. We, the taxpayer, have to do that. I doubt very much that their parents and family members are going to come here legally.


soloweygirl
go after he Repuglicans, they have been stalling on everything. They like illegals to come here to clean their Toilets and wash their Underwear, do their lawn care and whatever else is beneath their dignity to do for themselves. You are barking up the wrong Tree.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

SQM said:


> What does it make it? A way to encourage people off of welfare? The only freedom the slaves in the camps got was the freedom death gives. Stick with knitting simple. Any thinking is beyond your skill set.


This scenario doesn't change no matter the thread does it? A difference of opinion, them WHAM, the insult/attack. It doesn't matter the subject, the action/reaction is always the same by the same group of people.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Gossiping between threads is a bad idea. I wanted to address what someone had posted on another thread and didn't do enough to make the post that concerned me as anonymous as I should have. I'm sorry for that, and certainly didn't and don't want this to be a topic devoted to bashing anyone on.


If you think gossiping between the threads is such a bad idea, then why did you bring up KPG? She hasn't been on the site, let alone post anything to this thread. Do you hate her so much that you need to take her everywhere?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> This scenario doesn't change no matter the thread does it? A difference of opinion, them WHAM, the insult/attack. It doesn't matter the subject, the action/reaction is always the same by the same group of people.


I only react strongly to anti-semitic statements. Most of the other topics I let slide. Surprised that another Jewish person would not react similarly unless your need to fit in overrides any of your other feelings.


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## Llavaia (Oct 14, 2013)

The name calling on this site saddens me... If someone says something hurtful please make one decent comment and move on... Ignore them and do not further reply.. You will never change them. Instead the anger widens to include so many other hurtful comments...the insults on this thread were too many to count...remember we are women and are held to a higher standard then men because frankly we are better.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Llavaia said:


> The name calling on this site saddens me... If someone says something hurtful please make one decent comment and move on... Ignore them and do not further reply.. You will never change them. Instead the anger widens to include so many other hurtful comments...the insults on this thread were too many to count...remember we are women and are held to a higher standard then men because frankly we are better.


Yours is a wise and kind hearted comment. Thank you.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Llavaia said:


> The name calling on this site saddens me... If someone says something hurtful please make one decent comment and move on... Ignore them and do not further reply.. You will never change them. Instead the anger widens to include so many other hurtful comments...the insults on this thread were too many to count...remember we are women and are held to a higher standard then men because frankly we are better.


Llavaia, you make me feel ashamed. I'll try to do better.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> If you think gossiping between the threads is such a bad idea, then why did you bring up KPG? She hasn't been on the site, let alone post anything to this thread. Do you hate her so much that you need to take her everywhere?


Where did Maid bring up KPG? Did I miss it? or do you mean the following paragraph by an anonymous writer?


> "...at this point in time I think the left is attacking Joey because it fills a void for them. They are all free to leave the thread and stay on their liberal threads, but do not. Whenever Joey posts an article, they all come out in force and attack. It's not about abortion, I don't think the lefties really care about abortion. It's about the one against the many. It's about trying to take Joey down and getting her to leave KP. One less Republican/Conservative is always a good thing. The one thing they didn't count on is that Joey is strong and will fight back and defend what she feels strongly about. It's been one round after another and Joey is still standing and standing STRONG. I equate this to Joey being Israel and the lefties being Hamas. Hamas will lose. That my opinion of what is going on."


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> Under-reported -NO. Not reported - YES. The children coming from Central America has been going on for years. It has nearly tripled since October of last year. Why should we have to pay for these illegal immigrants? This is a totally preventable situation of which this administration is doing nothing to prevent. They are definitely allowing it to happen/continue.
> 
> If the children are sent here first who is sponsoring them? How are they able to support themselves? The answers are no one and they can't support themselves. - as our laws demand. We, the taxpayer, have to do that. I doubt very much that their parents and family members are going to come here legally.


It has been occuring for years and so has our creation of the problem.

A bit of information about the economic conditions in Central America and why children are sent to the U S. Once again it is a problem created by us and now no one wants to see the results of our greed and stupid foriegn economic policies.

Central Americans Speak Out Against CAFTA
Central Americans Speak Out Against DR-CAFTA: Major Issues and Mobilizations

Alliance for Responsible Trade
Karen Hansen-Kuhn, March 2005

Introduction: Why Central Americans Oppose DR-CAFTA

When the Bush Administration announced in 2002 the initiation of talks toward the establishment of a U.S.-Central America Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA, also known as DR-CAFTA after the inclusion of the Dominican Republic in 2004), it declared that the accord would advance "regional stability, democracy and economic development." Central Americans organized in unions, women's, environmental, family-farm, consumer and youth organizations and social movements, on the other hand, have expressed their alarm at the agreement's potential consequences in a series of protests, workshops, conferences and press events designed to increase public awareness about these damaging potential impacts. These events have paralleled the negotiations and the present planning for the accord's submission to the U.S. and Central American legislatures for approval, perhaps later this year.

The issues that most concern Central Americans vary from country to country. In Costa Rica, for example, there has been considerable opposition to provisions in DR-CAFTA that would serve to privatize the country's inexpensive and well functioning telecommunications system. In El Salvador, much of the protest has focused on the link between efforts to privatize public-health care and provisions in DR-CAFTA that would expedite the sector's privatization and make it permanent.

Some issues have resonated throughout the region. Central Americans look with alarm at the experience of Mexican farmers under NAFTA, realizing that their own agricultural sectors, which are the source of up to half of local employment, could be devastated by imports of low-cost farm goods from the United States. Many civil-society groups in every country in the region are also strongly opposed to provisions in DR-CAFTA on investment, services, and government procurement, among others, that would make it extremely difficult, if not virtually impossible, for local governments to respond to democratic initiatives to design and implement sustainable and equitable national development programs.

Civil-society programs to educate local populations about DR-CAFTA are more advanced in Central America than in the Dominican Republic, which was "docked in" to DR-CAFTA last year after a short series of hasty negotiations. Even so, Dominican groups are committed to broadening the public debate on the accord in their country. In February 2005, 62 civil-society organizations, led by the Dominican Medical College, held an Alternative Social Forum. Citing the agreement's potential impacts on Dominican family farmers and on people's access to low-cost medicines, participants in the Forum agreed to launch a major public-education campaign and to urge their legislators to reject the proposed accord.

The Dominican and Central American organizations opposing DR-CAFTA, like their allies in the United States, are not against increasing trade and other economic ties among our seven countries. They believe, however, that the provisions of DR-CAFTA constitute the wrong rules for regional integration. They are therefore calling for the rejection of DR-CAFTA and for the initiation of a greatly expanded public dialogue in each nation with civil society to shape a set of economic relations among the countries of the region that would lead to just and sustainable development.

Guatemala: Devastating Impacts on Agriculture and Sovereignty

As Mexico's closest neighbors, Guatemalans view the Mexican experience under NAFTA with grave concern, particularly the fact that some 1.3 million Mexican farmers have been displaced by imports of cheap U.S. agricultural goods. Agriculture makes up 23% of Guatemala's GDP and is the source of 50% of its employment. The Coordination of NGOs and Cooperatives (CONGOOD) carried out a detailed study of the potential impact of DR-CAFTA on Guatemalan agriculture, particularly on the export and import of 24 key crops. CONGCOOP concludes that the agreement could result in a net loss of between 45,000 and 124,000 jobs. The job losses among white-corn producers (who account for 38 percent of employment in the country) could be especially severe during the first year of implementation, when production could fall by as much as 80 percent.

Not surprisingly, family-farm and indigenous organizations have been at the forefront of demonstrations against the agreement. In a recent protest at the national Congress, Nery Barrios of Unity of Union and Popular Action (UASP) emphasized that, "campesinos won't be able to produce corn, beans, rice or grains, because those goods will come from abroad at lower prices. They will be genetically modified goods that will affect Guatemalans' health." Indigenous groups assert that the agreement violates their rights under ILO Convention 169 (which Guatemala ratified in 1996), which states that they must be consulted on issues that affect their rights to land or livelihoods.

Over the past few months, a new issue has emerged: the Guatemalan Congress's right to establish laws regarding the production and marketing of generic medicines. The Congress approved legislation in December 2004 that eliminated a five-year ban on the use of test data on pharmaceutical products. Under the old ban generic producers were forced to conduct their own trials on the safety of medicines in order to gain marketing authority, which is prohibitively expensive. The office of the U.S. Trade Representative has threatened to remove Guatemala from DR-CAFTA unless the five-year protection on the use of test data is reinstated. Luis Velazquez of the Association of Pharmaceutical Industries of Guatemala (ASINFRAGUA) called this pressure "an abuse" and said that it violates the country's sovereignty.

Guatemalan organizations have also protested the lack of public debate on DR-CAFTA and have insisted on a public consultation on the accord. The Mesa Global, a multisectoral coalition on trade and development, has, in working with other organizations, gathered 25,000 letters to legislators demanding that they convene a public consultation on the ratification of this accord. They urge the Congress not to rush through a vote but instead to carefully consider the potential consequences for the country's future economic and social development.

Guatemalan Demonstrations against CAFTA

12 October 2002: Mobilizations against CAFTA are held throughout Central America. A thousand indigenous Guatemalans block the Pan-American Highway at Huehuetenango, and 6,000 protestors block highways, airports and border crossings in Petén.

12 May 2003: Hundreds of farmers protest outside the site of the fourth round of official negotiations in Guatemala City. "We want to continue working without the threat of an invasion of subsidized U.S. products, as occurred in Mexico under NAFTA," the protestors announce in a press statement.

26 November 2003: 20,000 Guatemalan family farmers and indigenous people march to demand changes in the government's agricultural and land-tenure policies and to protest CAFTA, the FTAA and Plan Puebla Panama.

23 March 2004: Thousands of Guatemalan farmers, women, workers and youth march and block roads to protest CAFTA, Plan Puebla Panama and recent price increases on consumer goods.

31 March 2004: More than 10,000 indigenous Guatemalans organized by the Mayan Wagib'Kij march to demand that the government cancel permits for mining on their lands and that it review CAFTA, the FTAA and PPP and initiate a process to redefine those agreements in consultation with indigenous peoples.

8 June 2004: Thousands of Guatemalan farmers, workers and indigenous peoples block highways and border crossings, protesting violent land evictions, proposals for regressive taxes and CAFTA (now known as DR-CAFTA after the addition of the Dominican Republic). The government agrees to a series of commitments in response to the protests, including a promise to hold public hearings on DR-CAFTA throughout the country.

12 October 2004: Nearly 12,000 Guatemalans, led by indigenous and campesino organizations, march in Guatemala City against DR-CAFTA. "The FTA will only bring more poverty to our country," said Daniel Pascual of the National Coordination of Campesino Organizations (CNOC, quoted in La Prensa).

11 January 2005: Several hundred representatives of the National October 20 Coalition protest at the U.S. Embassy against pressure by the U.S. government to rescind legislation on patent protections to make the Guatemalan law consistent with DR-CAFTA.

11 February 2005: More than 300 representatives of unions and family-farm and other civil-society organizations demonstrate at the national Congress to demand that the legislators authorize a popular consultation on the agreement rather than ratify it.

1 March 2005: More than 8,000 Guatemalans march to the Plaza of the Constitution to demand that legislators vote against DR-CAFTA and mining concessions to foreign companies.

El Salvador: Health Care, Labor Rights and Democracy

Despite the fact that El Salvador was the first country to ratify DR-CAFTA, it has also been the site of massive protests against the proposed accord. Hundreds of thousands of Salvadorans have participated in numerous protests against DR-CAFTA, expressing concerns about the potential impacts on the country's public health-care system, labor rights, and its future democratic development.

Perhaps the most explosive issue in recent years in El Salvador has been the proposed privatization of public health care. Since the late 1990s, the government has moved to weaken unions in the sector through huge layoffs and to contract out certain health-care services to private companies. In response, local unions organized a series of protests, culminating in a demonstration in March 2003 by some 250,000 people from a broad variety of sectors. The government was compelled to back down on those plans, although it has yet to fulfill promises to rehire workers who went on strike or to end private concessions being granted at public hospitals.

Based on the experiences of other countries that have privatized public-health services, Salvadorans are concerned that such plans will result in a sharp rise in prices for those essential services. The privatization plans are seen as precursors to DR-CAFTA, since once a service has been opened to contracts with private providers, the trade agreement would ban restrictions on foreign investment in that service. In addition, if a future government were to decide to reinstate the public provision of health care, under the terms of the agreement's investment chapter, it would be subject to potentially ruinous lawsuits by private companies alleging that such moves would undermine their potential profits.

Salvadorans have also expressed concerns that the proposed agreement would weaken protections for labor rights. Just before the vote in the Salvadoran Assembly, Human Rights Ombudsperson Beatrice Alamanni de Carrillo issued a public letter urging the Assembly not to rush through a vote on the accord. In the letter, she stated that her office had carried out an in-depth analysis of DR-CAFTA "that reflects the serious impact of the Agreement on the right to work and to organize trade unions -- despite the fact that the Agreement includes chapters on labor and the environment." The multisectoral Sinti Techan network issued a similar statement, decrying the fact that, rather than improve on existing labor-rights review mechanisms under the Generalized System of Preferences and the Caribbean Basin Initiative, "the agreement eliminates the verification of labor rights issues, instead substituting a rhetorical and unenforceable 'Labor Chapter'. As a result, the legitimate aspirations of millions of workers in the region for improvements in their working conditions become even more distant."

In February 2005, the Sinti Techan network presented a legal challenge to the ratification of DR-CAFTA, alleging that the agreement violates constitutional guarantees for labor rights, health care and other economic and social rights, and that it contradicts existing international commitments on regional integration and environmental protection. Despite its ratification in December in a legislative session held in the middle of the night, the public debate on DR-CAFTA in El Salvador is far from over.

Demonstrations against DR-CAFTA in El Salvador

24 March 2002: "Another Central America is Possible" forum is held in San Salvador. Hundreds of activists from the region gather to discuss the potential impacts of CAFTA. The forum results in the formation of the Central American Popular Bloc, which coordinates actions on CAFTA throughout the region.

17 September 2002: Salvadoran health-care workers declare a national strike against privatization, union busting and CAFTA, which they see as inter-related.

12 October 2002: Mobilizations are held throughout the region. Some 13,000 Salvadorans march and peacefully obstruct 11 border crossing points to protest CAFTA, Plan Puebla Panama and the FTAA.

22 October 2002: More than 150,000 Salvadorans march to protest plans to privatize health care and electricity, which are seen as key elements in the government's plans for CAFTA and Plan Puebla Panama.

9 January 2003: Tens of thousands of Salvadoran activists protest the formal initiation of CAFTA negotiations, which begin that week in Washington, DC. The protesters in San Salvador blockade roads and bridges, occupy the city's cathedral and block entrances to three factories controlled by transnational corporations.

6 February 2003: Some 125,000 Salvadorans march against the privatization of health care and CAFTA.

13 March 2003: Nearly 250,000 Salvadorans march again against the privatization of health care and CAFTA.

2 April 2003: Tens of thousands of protesters from all over Central America hold a rally outside the official CAFTA negotiating session being held in San Salvador.

10-12 December 2003: Over 2,000 Salvadoran farmers, students and other citizens' groups march to the capital to protest the final round of CAFTA negotiations being held that week in Washington, DC.

19-21 July 2004: Social movement leaders from throughout Central America meet in El Salvador at the fifth Mesoamerican Forum. Representatives of more than 700 organizations sign a petition against DR-CAFTA.

12 October 2004: Thousands of people mobilize against DR-CAFTA. Similar mobilizations are carried out on this day throughout Central America.

16 December 2004: Representatives of the MPR-12 network peacefully occupy the National Congress to voice their opposition to DR-CAFTA. Hundreds more gather outside the Congress.

22 December 2004: Activists block highways at ten locations across the country to protest the Salvadoran Assembly's ratification of DR-CAFTA.

Honduras: Trading Away Farms to Save Sweatshops?

Since Honduras was devastated by Hurricane Mitch in 1998, the economy has been slowly recovering, although the government estimates that nearly a third of the economically active population is still either unemployed or underemployed. Many of the arguments being made now in favor of DR-CAFTA's ratification assert that provisions in the agreement will save jobs in the country's maquila sector. They ignore, however, the potential impacts on the agricultural sector, which is the source of 36.6% of employment.

Some 120,000 people work in the Honduran maquila sector, primarily in textile exports. The recent expiration of quotas under the Multi-Fibre Arrangement means that those goods are now forced to compete with exports from China, where wages are even lower than in Honduras (and other Central American countries). DR-CAFTA's promoters insist that the tariff reductions under the agreement would give local textile exports a cost advantage that would allow those goods to continue to compete with the Chinese goods.

Honduran unions, family-farm organizations and other social movements question, however, the wisdom of continuing to favor that sector at the expense of agricultural production. During the 1990s, when agricultural tariffs and public support for agriculture were slashed, the maquila sector received tax holidays and subsidized services, including energy, port and other facilities. In a January 2005 letter to members of the Honduran Congress, four labor federations, the Honduran Popular Bloc, the National Campesino Council and 14 social movements state that, "it was a mistake to dismantle our national productive sector, destroying the agrarian reform process and the social sector of the economy and essentially betting everything on the maquilas. DR-CAFTA will not lead to any substantive changes in the maquila scheme. To the contrary, it will reinforce its current logic, making jobs even more precarious and demanding even more subsidies from the State (our people) in the hope of competing with China."

Raf Flores, a local analyst, points to the experience of rice production under the trade liberalization that has already taken place. Honduras was once self-sufficient in rice production; next year it will produce a mere 20 percent of local demand. Flores warns that if DR-CAFTA is implemented, some 700,000 farmers and their families could be thrown out of work and forced to seek employment elsewhere. In essence, he explains, provisions in the agreement could potentially protect 120,000 jobs at the expense of those 700,000.

These issues, as well as concerns that the agreement contradicts the Honduran constitution and would severely constrain the government's ability to implement development policies, are being echoed in the Honduran Congress. In a September letter to the U.S. Congress signed by 31 members of the Honduran Congress from all major political parties, the legislators assert, "DR-CAFTA is a pre-announced Mitch. The negative impacts on the Honduran population will be equal to or greater than the disasters caused by that hurricane in 1998...We urge you to vote no on DR-CAFTA."

Key Demonstrations against DR-CAFTA in Honduras

22-23 June 2002: Over 1,000 representatives of social movements from Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras meet in Choluteca, Honduras at the Mesoamerican Forum. They declare their rejection of CAFTA, the FTAA and Plan Puebla Panama and develop plans for public education and mobilization.

12 October 2002: Mobilizations are held throughout the region. In Honduras, marches in Tegucigalpa, San Pedro Sula and Choluteca draw thousands of people protesting CAFTA and the privatization of health care, water and education.

21-24 July 2003: More than 1,500 activists from Central America and Mexico attend the Fourth Mesoamerican Conference, "For People's Self-Determination and Resistance," in Tegucigalpa. The conference culminates in a march to the presidential palace attended by more than 10,000 people opposed to CAFTA and Plan Puebla Panama.

5 February 2004: More than 15,000 Hondurans mobilized by the Bloque Popular Hondureño demonstrate against CAFTA.

8 March 2004: Hundreds of Honduran women march in Tegucigalpa on International Women's Day, demanding greater political representation in the country and voicing their rejection of CAFTA.

12 March 2004: Some 3,000 Honduran consumer activists demonstrate against recent price increases and CAFTA.

20 March 2004: Some 4,000 Honduran activists, including a large contingent of indigenous people, demonstrate against CAFTA and the Iraq War.

1 May 2004: Demonstrations commemorating Labor Day take place throughout Central America. Some 15,000 Honduran workers take to the streets and present a list of 12 demands, including a call on the government not to ratify CAFTA.

2 July 2004: Honduran students, teachers and workers blockade streets in Tegucigalpa to protest the lack of any response by the government to the demands presented on 1 May.

28 September 2004: Members of the Bloque Popular deliver over 18,000 letters to the National Congress demanding that the legislators reject DR-CAFTA.

23-27 December 2004: A series of demonstrations and marches occur to protest plans to ratify DR-CAFTA during the holidays. Members of the Bloque Popular peacefully occupy the Congress to prevent a secret middle-of-the-night vote on the agreement.

11 February 2005: Hundreds of people attend the "People's Congress", urging legislators to reject DR-CAFTA.

Nicaragua: Agriculture and Water

Many Nicaraguans are deeply concerned that DR-CAFTA would devastate the country's food production and limit citizens' access to water, a commodity that many argue should be considered a basic human right.

The Nicaraguan economy is highly dependent on agriculture, even more so than other Central American economies. According Nicaraguan economist Adolfo Acevedo, agricultural production accounts for 28 percent of the country's GDP and 42 percent of employment (compared to an average of 26 percent in the rest of Central America). Corn, rice and beans are essential crops for many farmers, both as sources of income and food for their families.

Under the terms of DR-CAFTA, these farmers, most of whom lack credit, technical assistance and access to irrigation, would be forced to compete with highly productive, highly subsidized U.S. goods. According to Oxfam International's Carlos Galian, U.S. exports of corn to Nicaragua under DR-CAFTA could increase by 10,000 percent the first year alone. "In the final analysis," Acevedo concludes, "what is at stake for the long term is not just the possibility of preserving a large part of the national food production, assuring food sovereignty, or of losing the possibility of developing a multifunctional and sustainable rural economy, which on its own has fundamental importance, but the fate of the labor force itself, and, more deeply yet, the fate of the human beings linked to this production."

Nicaraguans are also concerned that the agreement would further the privatization of water, a proposal currently being promoted by the Inter-American Development Bank. The IDB water "modernization" proposal includes contracting out the management of water systems. Carlos Pacheco, Executive Director of the Center for International Studies, explains that, despite the government's claims that the agreement would not mandate privatization, the government procurement provisions in DR-CAFTA would require more than one third of the country's municipalities to open the management of their water systems to bidding by private, including foreign, companies.

So far, this proposal has been stalled because of massive public resistance. Ruth Herrera, coordinator of the Consumers' Defense Network, explains, "More than half of all Nicaraguans lack potable water in their homes. This vital service must be expanded and administered solely by the public sector in our country in the interests of the people and their household and productive activities and not as a commodity to be sold for profit. The Consumers' Defense Network is fighting against the privatization of water and water distribution management which is being pushed by the Inter-American Development Bank, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund and now by the provisions of CAFTA. We see access to water as a basic human right."

Protests against CAFTA in Nicaragua

16-18 July 2002: Third Mesoamerican Forum is held in Managua. More than 1,000 representatives from citizens' groups in Central American and Mexico gather to discuss strategies around CAFTA and Plan Puebla Panama.

12 October 2002: Mobilizations are held against CAFTA throughout the region. Thousands of Nicaraguans rally in Managua.

12 January 2003: Nicaraguan environmental and union activists gather outside the National Assembly to protest CAFTA. The groups call on legislators to reject the privatization of water (seen as a first step in the CAFTA process) and to demand genuine public participation in the CAFTA talks.

3-4 June 2003: More than 600 people representing the Central American Popular Bloc gather in Managua for a two-day strategy session on CAFTA. The meeting coincides with a round of official CAFTA talks, and protests are held in front of the hotel where the talks are being conducted.

18 September 2003: Some 10,000 Nicaraguans from unions and family-farm, women's youth, consumer, environmental and other citizens' organizations gather to protest the official CAFTA talks being held in Managua.

12 October 2004: Thousands of Nicaraguans march to protest water privatization and DR-CAFTA.

18 September 2003 March against CAFTA.

Costa Rica: Undermining Democracy and the Environment

Costa Rica is known for its long history of democracy, its relatively low levels of poverty, and its pristine national parks and natural resources. Unfortunately, each of these achievements could be threatened if DR-CAFTA were to be implemented.

The proposed opening of the telecommunications sector to foreign investment under DR-CAFTA has generated extensive public opposition. Costa Rica has a publicly owned electricity and telecommunications system that provides telephone services to 97 percent of the population at prices comparable to those in the United States and lower than those in any other Latin American country. Under the current system, profits from internet and cell-phone services are used to subsidize rural telephone services and internet services in public schools. Under DR-CAFTA, the internet and cellular phone services (the most profitable sectors, which are projected to grow the most in the next few years) would be opened to competition from foreign companies, leaving the public system with only regular phone service. This would likely result in sharp increases in prices to consumers and massive layoffs.

Costa Ricans were astonished that these provisions were included in the agreement, given the turmoil caused by a similar proposal just two years earlier. In 2000, President Miguel Angel Rodríguez (now charged with corruption arising from payments he received from Alcatel, a French telephone company), proposed the privatization of the Costa Rican Electricity Institute (ICE), which provides both energy and telecommunications services. People took to the streets in a series of massive protests and roadblocks lasting over two weeks, leading the national Congress to reject the proposal. The privatization plan appeared to have died until it suddenly appeared in the DR-CAFTA text during the last few days of negotiations.

Many Costa Ricans are also concerned that the investment provisions in DR-CAFTA could threaten the country's high environmental standards. The Costa Rican government recently denied the U.S.-based Harken Energy Corp. a permit to conduct offshore oil exploration because of a very negative environmental impact assessment of the proposed project (a normal requirement under Costa Rican law). Harken attempted to sue the Costa Rican government for US$57 billion (a figure that far exceeds the country's entire GDP) under the World Bank's International Convention for the Settlement of International Disputes (ICSID). Because Costa Rica is not a party to ICSID and has not signed a bilateral investment treaty with the United States, the government was able to avoid the ICSID arbitration process and remove the matter to its the local court system for resolution.

Ottón Solís, a former finance minister and current head of the progressive Partido de Acción Ciudadana said, "The U.S. promotes CAFTA as a tool to enhance democracy, but it would actually weaken our democratically built judicial institutions by creating supra-national mechanisms for U.S. companies to bypass our courts and sue governments when they believe their profits are being harmed by regulations." Solís, along with members of Congress from the three major political parties and tens of thousands of Costa Ricans who have taken to the streets to protest such measures, demand that DR-CAFTA be rejected and new talks for sustainable trade and development begin.

Key Mobilizations against CAFTA in Costa Rica

27 January 2003: Hundreds of Costa Rican activists from social movements, unions and environmental groups hold a peaceful protest against CAFTA parallel to the round of official negotiations being held in San Jose.

20 October 2003: More than 3,000 Costa Rican students, workers and activists march to the Congress to demand that it reject CAFTA.

21 November 2003: 5,000 Costa Rican telecommunications and insurance workers (sectors that would likely be privatized under CAFTA), along with students and other activists, march to Congress and to the Presidential Palace to express their opposition to CAFTA.

1 May 2004: Demonstrations commemorating Labor Day take place throughout the region. More than 6,000 Costa Ricans march against the privatization of public telecommunications and insurance services and the signing of CAFTA.

31 May 2004: Some 20,000 Costa Ricans march to the National Assembly to express their opposition to CAFTA. Legislator Gloria Valerín (PUSC, the majority party) vows to vote against the agreement, adding, "I am pleasantly surprised by the massive support for this effort by the Costa Rican people. Now it is our job to make sure more Deputies vote against CAFTA." (La Nación, 1 June 2004)

23-30 August 2004: Tens of thousands of Costa Ricans bring the country to a halt in demonstrations against a foreign company's control of vehicle inspection services, against the possible ratification of DR-CAFTA and for much needed wage increases. The government accedes to several of the protesters' demands, leading to resignations by four ministers (including the trade and finance ministers) and other top economic advisors.

12 October 2004: Nearly 30,000 Costa Ricans protest against DR-CAFTA and corruption scandals involving foreign investment in public utilities, especially the tele-communications sector. Two former presidents are charged with accepting bribes from foreign firms interested in investing in strategic sectors


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> peacegoddess So what has happened in the last 10 years?


I am sure you can connect the dots and figure we ruined their economic structures and people are leaving the countries in droves because of the effects brought on by our policies.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

More info on U S foriegn policy and its resusts in Central America.

Posted on June 18, 2014 by Hector Luis Alamo, Jr.
The U.S.-Created Child Migrant Crisis

When a coup removed the democratically-elected leftist president of Honduras in June 2009, receiving tacit support from the U.S. State Department, the American people barely took notice. Then when the United States increased military funding in its little protectorate to reinforce the new right-wing regime installed there, the American public still remained largely unaware and unconcerned. Even after it was reported that Honduras had become the most dangerous country in the world a year after the coup (it still is), and that a campaign against drug cartels in Mexico had made Honduras a major distribution point for drugs making their way from South American producers to American consumers, Americans couldnt be bothered.

They focused all of their attention on Mexico, and their tunnel vision is somewhat understandable. The United States and Mexico share a long, porous border, and Americans have been worried about the violence in Mexico being exported to the United Statesthough looking at cities like Chicago, its hard to argue that it hasnt already. In addition, considering Mexico is the second largest country in Latin America, with Mexicans making up the largest slice of immigrants in the United States, it seems only natural that the average American would view the topic of immigration as a Mexico thing.

But now that child migrants from Honduras and other Central American countries have begun appearing on Americas doorstep, the formerly negligible crises in the region has suddenly been upgraded to an urgent humanitarian situation by President Barack Obama.



I guess its true what they say, All politics is local.

For the past few weeks, the immigration debate in the United States has almost completely shifted to talk of child migrants making the dangerous journey from Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras to the U.S.-Mexico border, ever since President Obama released a presidential memo on June 2 asking Congress for an additional $1.4 billion in federal funds to address the issue. He even tasked the Federal Emergency Management Agency to deal with the problem.

Cecilia Muñoz, Obamas director of domestic policy, revealed that the number of child migrants traveling alone has been on the rise since 2009, and Border Patrol reports that the apprehension of Unaccompanied Alien Children from Central America has increased by 92 percent from last year, with the largest number of children coming from Honduras. Already over 13,000 Honduran children have been caught at the border this year, a far cry from the 968 apprehended in 2009. And this years figure is already twice as high as the number of Honduran children caught at the U.S. border in all of 2013.

Controversy surrounds possible reasons for the recent surge, as the government refers to it. Some believe Central Americans are under the false impression that child migrants who make it to U.S. soil are granted some sort of amnesty. More than a few of Obamas critics accuse the president of fueling this belief through lax enforcement of U.S. immigration laws.

To undo Americas image as a golden door, personalities as seemingly diverse as the Congressional Republicans and soon-to-be presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton demand the Obama administration send a clear message to the people of Central America that migrants of any age caught at the U.S. border will be sent back to their home countries. Vice President Joe Biden has been sent to Guatemala to meet with Central American leaders and relay the message. In this way the U.S. government hopes its unwelcoming stance will deter would-be migrants.

But whats clear for anyone following the situation in Central America is that these children need no other motivation to travel thousands of miles, walk through a searing desert and face all kinds of human dangers than the already hellish conditions in their home countries, conditions supported and oftentimes designed by the very same government now trying to remedy an urgent humanitarian situation.

Since its early years the United States has sought to dominate Central America rather than empower it, as evidenced by policies such as the Monroe Doctrine and its Roosevelt Corollary, the deceptive Good Neighbor policy that left harsh dictatorships virtually unmolested, the Kennedy Doctrine that sought to combat socialism in Latin America at any cost, the Reagan Doctrine took things up a notch and the concurrent wars on terrorism and drugs in Latin America. In fact, the history of U.S. imperialistic policy in Latin America is so shameful, youd be hard-pressed to point to one position or action taken in the region that benefited the people of Latin America. In any case, the net result of U.S. foreign policy in Latin America, especially in Central America, is overwhelmingly negative.



The U.S. governments primary objective in Honduras, as with the rest of Latin America, has never been to establish a safe and prosperous society for its citizens. The Honduran government has simply been a proxy for U.S. business interests, first the United Fruit Company, and now the U.S. military-industrial complex. And because Washingtons game plan has been so successful in Honduras, we have our glimpse at what could be in store for Central America and beyond. Order and peace is desired by policymakers insofar as it creates an environment for the U.S. government and the governments it controls can impose neoliberal policies on the region and extract wealth.

Its no surprise then that Honduras, the original banana republic, and the poster child for U.S. meddling run amok, should today be the country of origin for the greatest number of child migrants. The United States vampirish policy toward Honduras has drained that country.

As well as implementing a foreign policy that has forged the kind of Central America we see today impoverished and unstable, with weak systems ill-equipped to resurrect themselves. U.S. drug consumption and the U.S. war on drugs have created both high demand and a black market for illegal narcotics, making the production, distribution and sale of drugs a lucrative enterprise. So lucrative, in fact, that in a region offering its citizens no other route out of extreme poverty, many have deemed it worth killing for.

Enforcement is not the solution to the latest version of the United States immigration issue. To stem immigration, if thats indeed what is desired, the United States needs to make Central America habitable again, especially since the U.S. government has been the major instigator in the region for at least the past century. The Obama administration and future presidential administrations must recognize the socioeconomics behind the child migrant crisis. Washington has to realize that it can no longer fund right-wing regimes to combat criminal groups like Mara Salvatrucha and Barrio 18, when doing so only endorses the kind of neoliberal policies in those countries that foster further poverty and despair, thus leading many to join gangs in the first place.

What Honduran parents want for their children is what any parent wants for their child, which is merely the opportunity to build a decent life that is healthy and secure. The child migrants traveling to the U.S. border arent making the journey with dreams of buying mansions and sports cars once they get here. They come just as millions of other immigrants have come since the nations founding: tired and poor. They are the homeless, the tempest-tost, the huddled masses yearning to breathe free.

There was a time when America extended her hand to people like that, no matter where they were. Now were withdrawing that hand just when child migrants are so desperate to come here, and even though weve made them that way.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> I am sure you can connect the dots and figure we ruined their economic structures and people are leaving the countries in droves because of the effects brought on by our policies.


And who was POTUS most of those years?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> And who was POTUS most of those years?


This an American foriegn policy problem that has been upheld by both parties. While CAFTA was enacted during Bush's term in office, NAFTA which has had similar results was a Clinton era boondogle and now Obama is going for the Asian trade agreement.

The real problem is unrestrained corporate involvement and influence on economic structures here and else where in the world.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> This an American foriegn policy problem that has been upheld by both parties. While CAFTA was enacted during Bush's term in office, NAFTA which has had similar results was a Clinton era boondogle and now Obama is going for the Asian trade agreement.
> 
> The real problem is unrestrained corporate involvement and influence on economic structures here and else where in the world.


That Pacific rim trade agreement in the works would be AWFUL for American workers. And you don't see much about it in the press.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> And who was POTUS most of those years?


I wasn't particularly happy with our most recent former president in general and, at the moment, I'm pretty ticked off that President Obama's answer to the humanitarian crisis of children flooding across the US/Mexico border fleeing from horrible circumstances in South America is to ask for funding to deport these children Somehow, asking for almost 4 billion dollars to fund deportation doesn't seem like a humanitarian answer to any humanitarian crisis.

Peacegoddess, thanks for both of your long posts about this subject.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I wasn't particularly happy with our most recent former president in general and, at the moment, I'm pretty ticked off that President Obama's answer to the humanitarian crisis of children flooding across the US/Mexico border fleeing from horrible circumstances in South America is to ask for funding to deport these children Somehow, asking for almost 4 billion dollars to fund deportation doesn't seem like a humanitarian answer to any humanitarian crisis.
> 
> Peacegoddess, thanks for both of your long posts about this subject.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> This an American foriegn policy problem that has been upheld by both parties. While CAFTA was enacted during Bush's term in office, NAFTA which has had similar results was a Clinton era boondogle and now Obama is going for the Asian trade agreement.
> 
> The real problem is unrestrained corporate involvement and influence on economic structures here and else where in the world.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

alcameron said:


> That Pacific rim trade agreement in the works would be AWFUL for American workers. And you don't see much about it in the press.


I bet Robert Reich has commented.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I wasn't particularly happy with our most recent former president in general and, at the moment, I'm pretty ticked off that President Obama's answer to the humanitarian crisis of children flooding across the US/Mexico border fleeing from horrible circumstances in South America is to ask for funding to deport these children Somehow, asking for almost 4 billion dollars to fund deportation doesn't seem like a humanitarian answer to any humanitarian crisis.
> 
> Peacegoddess, thanks for both of your long posts about this subject.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: to everything you say here, including your thanks to Peacegoddess.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> I bet Robert Reich has commented.


In addition to two bad puns from 2004 - Afta NAFTA Comes CAFTA and CAFTA: do we hafta? - there's the following, which are illustrations for the new edition of _Beyond Outrage_. Enjoy the slide show.
http://robertreich.org/post/31335756096


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> In addition to two bad puns from 2004 - Afta NAFTA Comes CAFTA and CAFTA: do we hafta? - there's the following, which are illustrations for the new edition of _Beyond Outrage_. Enjoy the slide show.
> http://robertreich.org/post/31335756096


The cartoon is great as is all of Reich's points. I do think the cartoon is a bit complicated for some to understand........


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> The cartoon is great as is all of Reich's points. I do think the cartoon is a bit complicated for some to understand........


There are 11 of them (click on the arrows on the side of the picture), some simpler. But people with large brains and a lot of knowledge rarely think simply.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

SQM said:


> I only react strongly to anti-semitic statements. Most of the other topics I let slide. Surprised that another Jewish person would not react similarly unless your need to fit in overrides any of your other feelings.


There is reacting and overreacting, it has nothing to do with fitting in with a certain group. Carrying on by overreacting after the apology was given is unnecessary in my book. One either accepts the apology or not. Your group chose not to accept it. In all your rantings, not one of you asked the poster what she meant by the phrase she used. I see it was more important to get in on the bandwagon and attack her first and then not accept her apology. Good for you.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

She did and you did. No, I was not talking about that post as it didn't mention KPG.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> I bet Robert Reich has commented.


Just read your post and did a quick search. This is from a Facebook post from Robert.
STOP THE TPP. Congress is poised to fast-track the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal (that is, move it through both houses without opportunity for amendment). This massive trade pact with 11 Asian and Latin American nations, whose total population is almost 800 million and comprise 40 percent of the worlds GDP, is a high priority for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and its corporate patrons because it would strengthen patent and copyright protections abroad, and encourage American corporations to make even more stuff overseas and ship it here. Americans benefit from cheaper goods from abroad only if Americans have the money to buy them. But this massive deal would further erode the jobs and wages of working and middle-class Americans while delivering its biggest gains to corporate executives and shareholders. Moreover, the deals environmental and labor safeguards are woefully inadequate, and it would give global corporations further rights to challenge American health and safety laws.
I still regret not doing more to strengthen the North American Free Trade Act's labor and environmental side-agreements when I was labor secretary under Bill Clinton. The TPP is NAFTA on steroids. Make a ruckus.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Baham said:


> Agreed.
> 
> The other side of that story is we don't want the government forcing women into gestations and childbirth which has also resulted in women dying after having the autonomy of their bodies violated.
> 
> ...


Baham
wise statement. Thank you.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

alcameron said:


> Just read your post and did a quick search. This is from a Facebook post from Robert.
> STOP THE TPP. Congress is poised to fast-track the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal (that is, move it through both houses without opportunity for amendment). This massive trade pact with 11 Asian and Latin American nations, whose total population is almost 800 million and comprise 40 percent of the worlds GDP, is a high priority for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and its corporate patrons because it would strengthen patent and copyright protections abroad, and encourage American corporations to make even more stuff overseas and ship it here. Americans benefit from cheaper goods from abroad only if Americans have the money to buy them. But this massive deal would further erode the jobs and wages of working and middle-class Americans while delivering its biggest gains to corporate executives and shareholders. Moreover, the deals environmental and labor safeguards are woefully inadequate, and it would give global corporations further rights to challenge American health and safety laws.
> I still regret not doing more to strengthen the North American Free Trade Act's labor and environmental side-agreements when I was labor secretary under Bill Clinton. The TPP is NAFTA on steroids. Make a ruckus.


Amazing how similar the dems are to the repubs in giving carte blanch to corporations.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> She did and you did. No, I was not talking about that post as it didn't mention KPG.


I'm sure this can be followed in some alternate universe. Thanks for the - um- answer.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Baham said:


> Agreed.
> 
> The other side of that story is we don't want the government forcing women into gestations and childbirth which has also resulted in women dying after having the autonomy of their bodies violated.
> 
> ...


I second that.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> There is reacting and overreacting, it has nothing to do with fitting in with a certain group. Carrying on by overreacting after the apology was given is unnecessary in my book. One either accepts the apology or not. Your group chose not to accept it. In all your rantings, not one of you asked the poster what she meant by the phrase she used. I see it was more important to get in on the bandwagon and attack her first and then not accept her apology. Good for you.


If you are referring to the slogan adopted by and forever tainted by its association with the Nazis, it is not overreacting to disparage it and question the motivations of the person presenting such a slogan. It is akin to someone using a black swastika in a white circle against a red background as an avatar. To claim being clueless is not an excuse. If the person introducing the slogan to this topic meant to arouse negative feelings, s/he certainly succeeded. For all of us who lost family, who were survivors, or who, but for the luck of having grandparents who left Europe decades earlier, the ugliness associated with the Holocaust will never go away, any more than the taint on the lives of abused acolytes or nightmares of raped women will ever go away.

I react with as much disgust to people using the N word or those who try to dehumanize LGBT people as to those who make anti Jewish comments either directly or by innuendo.

Whatever ethnos or other personal identity any of us is, we have to remember first and foremost we are all part of the Human race and try to act with decency and sensitivity to one another. I doubt I will see that level of civilization in my lifetime, but I am quite old.

Sometimes I revert to the science fiction lover in me and wonder whether this planet is somebody somewhere's sociology experiment, much the way our scientists watch lab rats in mazes. So far they are probably getting a D.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Amazing how similar the dems are to the repubs in giving carte blanch to corporations.


Nobody wants to be tagged a "liberal" these days, you know. A fate worse than death!


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

alcameron said:


> Nobody wants to be tagged a "liberal" these days, you know. A fate worse than death!


alcameron
I wear the Title "liberal" proudly even though I am also, conservative, moderate and independent as most of the people are whom I associate with. LIBERTA, one of the most precious words in any language.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> alcameron
> I wear the Title "liberal" proudly even though I am also, conservative, moderate and independent as most of the people are whom I associate with. LIBERTA, one of the most precious words in any language.


Part of our problem is with labeling people. Like you I have different ideas in different situations. The words liberal and conservative have taken on such narrow and slanted definitions that it is hard to describe exactly how I would be categorized. I try to keep an independent perspective and decide on issues on an issue by issue basis. I lean strongly in the direction of compassion for the people who have trouble maneuvering through life without some social crutches, and think it is to the benefit of society to help people find ways to be independent if they are capable of doing so and helping them survive life with dignity either if they can't or until they can cut the apron strings. Sorry for the run on sentence. Hope I made myself clear.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Part of our problem is with labeling people. Like you I have different ideas in different situations. The words liberal and conservative have taken on such narrow and slanted definitions that it is hard to describe exactly how I would be categorized. I try to keep an independent perspective and decide on issues on an issue by issue basis. I lean strongly in the direction of compassion for the people who have trouble maneuvering through life without some social crutches, and think it is to the benefit of society to help people find ways to be independent if they are capable of doing so and helping them survive life with dignity either if they can't or until they can cut the apron strings. Sorry for the run on sentence. Hope I made myself clear.


MarilynKnits
you describe exactly how I navigate through all issues in Life. No excuse necessary, you made yourself very clear.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Part of our problem is with labeling people. Like you I have different ideas in different situations. The words liberal and conservative have taken on such narrow and slanted definitions that it is hard to describe exactly how I would be categorized. I try to keep an independent perspective and decide on issues on an issue by issue basis. I lean strongly in the direction of compassion for the people who have trouble maneuvering through life without some social crutches, and think it is to the benefit of society to help people find ways to be independent if they are capable of doing so and helping them survive life with dignity either if they can't or until they can cut the apron strings. Sorry for the run on sentence. Hope I made myself clear.


You make yourself very clear. I continue to think you're a very wise person.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm sure this can be followed in some alternate universe. Thanks for the - um- answer.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: suggest posting it in alternate universe instead of this one.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put Marilyn. I'm with you.



MarilynKnits said:


> If you are referring to the slogan adopted by and forever tainted by its association with the Nazis, it is not overreacting to disparage it and question the motivations of the person presenting such a slogan. It is akin to someone using a black swastika in a white circle against a red background as an avatar. To claim being clueless is not an excuse. If the person introducing the slogan to this topic meant to arouse negative feelings, s/he certainly succeeded. For all of us who lost family, who were survivors, or who, but for the luck of having grandparents who left Europe decades earlier, the ugliness associated with the Holocaust will never go away, any more than the taint on the lives of abused acolytes or nightmares of raped women will ever go away.
> 
> I react with as much disgust to people using the N word or those who try to dehumanize LGBT people as to those who make anti Jewish comments either directly or by innuendo.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> alcameron
> I wear the Title "liberal" proudly even though I am also, conservative, moderate and independent as most of the people are whom I associate with. LIBERTA, one of the most precious words in any language.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Part of our problem is with labeling people. Like you I have different ideas in different situations. The words liberal and conservative have taken on such narrow and slanted definitions that it is hard to describe exactly how I would be categorized. I try to keep an independent perspective and decide on issues on an issue by issue basis. I lean strongly in the direction of compassion for the people who have trouble maneuvering through life without some social crutches, and think it is to the benefit of society to help people find ways to be independent if they are capable of doing so and helping them survive life with dignity either if they can't or until they can cut the apron strings. Sorry for the run on sentence. Hope I made myself clear.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> Amazing how similar the dems are to the repubs in giving carte blanch to corporations.


peacegoddess
we need to push for all moneys being kept out of politics. Let's start with Citizens United and go from there. It will make a dent in all directions.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> peacegoddess
> we need to push for all money to be kept out of politics. Let's start with Citizens United and go from there. It will make a dent in all directions.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> peacegoddess
> we need to push


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Campaign Reform has been discussed for ages. It is desperately needed now, but so many look at campaign coffers as treasure chests.



Huckleberry said:


> peacegoddess
> we need to push for all moneys being kept out of politics. Let's start with Citizens United and go from there. It will make a dent in all directions.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Get the tractors ready. I'll clean out the barn.



Huckleberry said:


> Huckleberry said:
> 
> 
> > peacegoddess
> > we need to push


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Get the tractors ready. I'll clean out the barn.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Frogging123 (Jul 3, 2014)

Huckleberry said:


> peacegoddess
> we need to push for all moneys being kept out of politics. Let's start with Citizens United and go from there. It will make a dent in all directions.


You have singled out a conservative contributor...which liberal contributor would you also single out? How about ActBlue or the NEA? The money is flowing in from both camps. It's not a one sided money push.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I am ashamed to admit that I am watching Fox Tales for news on Israel. This is a confession. Forgive me knitters for I have sinned, but I cannot listen to CNN anymore criticizing Israel for its zealous defense. I was infuriated and will listen to Fox Tales until the situation is settled and hopefully soon. I am amazed at the ugliness and rage toward the immigrants. Are these the same people who are anti-abortion and yet are totally heartless about this situation that actually has been going on for ages.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Frogging123 said:


> You have singled out a conservative contributor...which liberal contributor would you also single out? How about ActBlue or the NEA? The money is flowing in from both camps. It's not a one sided money push.


Frogging123
I agree there is more than one guilty Party in the Game but once the biggest devil is conquered, the rest will go down as well.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I wasn't particularly happy with our most recent former president in general and, at the moment, I'm pretty ticked off that President Obama's answer to the humanitarian crisis of children flooding across the US/Mexico border fleeing from horrible circumstances in South America is to ask for funding to deport these children Somehow, asking for almost 4 billion dollars to fund deportation doesn't seem like a humanitarian answer to any humanitarian crisis.
> 
> Peacegoddess, thanks for both of your long posts about this subject.


According to the Border Patrol's data - the influx of "family units" has increased 5X (to 55,420) what it was when being compared to the unaccompanied children numbers over the last year. This growth is hidden by the WH and other agency officials. The WH wants the public to believe all the children are fleeing abuse and violence. The hidden truth is that they are not. According to the Border Patrol, most unaccompanied youths say they are between the ages of 14 and 17, are male and made the trip to find a job. This was another reason cameras were not allowed when touring the detention centers, nor were interviews of the children allowed.

WH is downplaying "family units" in favor of "unaccompanied children" because they wish to focus the media's attention on the 2008 law - The William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act. 
The act is designed to allow seriously traumatized victims of forced trafficking to apply for green cards in the US. I.E. teenage prostitutes held by violent pimps.

The 2008 act allows the border/immigration agencies to settle the children in the US until judges decide if they can stay in the country or need to be deported. Labeling these children "unaccompanied alien children" prevents the agencies from deporting them rapidly.

The influx of illegals from Central America as been going on for more than 6 months. Officials have tried to hide the transfer of these illegals to various parts of the US to mute the protest that is currently happening now that the truth has been exposed.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> According to the Border Patrol's data - the influx of "family units" has increased 5X (to 55,420) what it was when being compared to the unaccompanied children numbers over the last year. This growth is hidden by the WH and other agency officials. The WH wants the public to believe all the children are fleeing abuse and violence. The hidden truth is that they are not. According to the Border Patrol, most unaccompanied youths say they are between the ages of 14 and 17, are male and made the trip to find a job. This was another reason cameras were not allowed when touring the detention centers, nor were interviews of the children allowed.
> 
> WH is downplaying "family units" in favor of "unaccompanied children" because they wish to focus the media's attention on the 2008 law - The William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act.
> The act is designed to allow seriously traumatized victims of forced trafficking to apply for green cards in the US. I.E. teenage prostitutes held by violent pimps.
> ...


Please spend some time reading up on the cause of the migration of Central American children, teens, and families into the U S. I recommend reading not only opinions etc by sources known to you, but also outside of your comfort zone.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Part of our problem is with labeling people. Like you I have different ideas in different situations. The words liberal and conservative have taken on such narrow and slanted definitions that it is hard to describe exactly how I would be categorized. I try to keep an independent perspective and decide on issues on an issue by issue basis. I lean strongly in the direction of compassion for the people who have trouble maneuvering through life without some social crutches, and think it is to the benefit of society to help people find ways to be independent if they are capable of doing so and helping them survive life with dignity either if they can't or until they can cut the apron strings. Sorry for the run on sentence. Hope I made myself clear.


 :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think everyone sees what they believe or what they can deal with at the moment.



soloweygirl said:


> According to the Border Patrol's data - the influx of "family units" has increased 5X (to 55,420) what it was when being compared to the unaccompanied children numbers over the last year. This growth is hidden by the WH and other agency officials. The WH wants the public to believe all the children are fleeing abuse and violence. The hidden truth is that they are not. According to the Border Patrol, most unaccompanied youths say they are between the ages of 14 and 17, are male and made the trip to find a job. This was another reason cameras were not allowed when touring the detention centers, nor were interviews of the children allowed.
> 
> WH is downplaying "family units" in favor of "unaccompanied children" because they wish to focus the media's attention on the 2008 law - The William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act.
> The act is designed to allow seriously traumatized victims of forced trafficking to apply for green cards in the US. I.E. teenage prostitutes held by violent pimps.
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No point suggesting. Not gonna happen.



peacegoddess said:


> Please spend some time reading up on the cause of the migration of Central American children, teens, and families into the U S. I recommend reading not only opinions etc by sources known to you, but also outside of your comfort zone.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I am confused about what I have been hearing re: the downed plane. Seems like the American Court of Opinion is blaming Putin. I am not sure. What do you think?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Evidence is disappearing. Forensic scientists are unable to gain access. Putin and rebels are pointing fingers at everyone else. Plane was shot down from an area held by the rebels. Weapon said to need training to use. The weapon came from Russia.

What do you think? I think Putin thinks he can get away with it. I think it's up to the UN and Europe to get off the stump.



SQM said:


> I am confused about what I have been hearing re: the downed plane. Seems like the American Court of Opinion is blaming Putin. I am not sure. What do you think?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

damemary said:


> No point suggesting. Not gonna happen.


We never know when a person will widen their blinders to see a new perspective.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I think it is in America's interest to create a foe out of Putin because Western Ukraine is more right-winged with fascist ideology but open to American Commerce. Putin, being a communist, is not playing ball with The States.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'll try to think like you.



peacegoddess said:


> We never know when a person will widen their blinders to see a new perspective.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

One reason why the shuttle should never have been abandoned. As it is right now we are forced to rely on other countries. Someday soon private companies will perhaps have it enough together for private space programs...but will then charge an arm and a leg for taking astronauts & scientists up and down. I sure am sick of the rush to "privatize" everything.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Satire alert!!!

You mean privatizing isn't always a brilliant idea? Who'd a thunk it?



sumpleby said:


> One reason why the shuttle should never have been abandoned. As it is right now we are forced to rely on other countries. Someday soon private companies will perhaps have it enough together for private space programs...but will then charge an arm and a leg for taking astronauts & scientists up and down. I sure am sick of the rush to "privatize" everything.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

SQM said:


> I think it is in America's interest to create a foe out of Putin because Western Ukraine is more right-winged with fascist ideology but open to American Commerce. Putin, being a communist, is not playing ball with The States.


We have enough foes without purposefully creating another...don't you think?????


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> I am confused about what I have been hearing re: the downed plane. Seems like the American Court of Opinion is blaming Putin. I am not sure. What do you think?


It sure seems like it here in our news. They believe he allowed the Russian activists (terrorists) to have the missiles weapons and they go back and forth into Russia. The news here seems quite definite that they are the ones who shot down the plane even though they are now denying it.

Right now they are saying on CNN that the Russians were micro managing the whole problem for the past weeks. They also said on Canadian news as well as CNN, that there is little doubt that the Russian activists(?) shot down the plane. They are hoping that the European countries who have a lot at stake will follow the Americans and stop trade in some places, and install new sanctions by all the countries together. There doesn't sound as if anyone has any ideas about doing anything of a military nature, as Putin is a wild card and very arrogant They do not want a World War to start. It is a difficult situation.

'I just saw Chris Cuomo on CNN who is there. He says the bodies are lying in the fields and that they have been disturbed and things taken, that there is absolutely no doubt about that as he has seen it with his own eyes.

He says, purses emptied etc. I also heard on Canadian TV by one reporter that one of the people in one of the villages near there said that 'everyone has a new watch. Unbelievable.

I have a fair amount of faith in our News Sources and Cuomo is right there so it is not hearsay.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> We have enough foes without purposefully creating another...don't you think?????


You're too young to remember, but The States has had a decades old poor history with Russia. I was not exactly clear in my original post. The States and Russia are almost natural enemies. So it is in the US's interest to make Putin the evil one, no matter what really happened. And we cannot believe what we hear on the news. Pay attention to what words are used. If the Ukranians are the "terrorists" that is a way to get sympathy for the Russians or visa versa.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> It sure seems like it here in our news. They believe he allowed the Russian activists (terrorists) to have the missiles weapons and they go back and forth into Russia. The news here seems quite definite that they are the ones who shot down the plane even though they are now denying it.
> 
> Right now they are saying on CNN that the Russians were micro managing the whole problem for the past weeks. They also said on Canadian news as well as CNN, that there is little doubt that the Russian activists(?) shot down the plane. They are hoping that the European countries who have a lot at stake will follow the Americans and stop trade in some places, and install new sactions by all the countries together. There doesn't sound as if anyone has any ideas about doing anything of a military nature, as Putin is a wild card and very arrogant They do not want a World War to start. It is a difficult situation.
> 
> ...


I would like to hear Canadian news. It may have a different and more objective spin on things.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

SQM said:


> You're too young to remember, but The States has had a decades old poor history with Russia. I was not exactly clear in my original post. The States and Russia are almost natural enemies. So it is in the US's interest to make Putin the evil one, no matter what really happened. And we cannot believe what we hear on the news. Pay attention to what words are used. If the Ukranians are the "terrorists" that is a way to get sympathy for the Russians or visa versa.


I am not sure how old you think I am, but I was around for the whole iron curtain crap etc. As a policy the U S does not need any more enemies whether "declared" by the public, the media, or by individuals.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Of course that is true, but Russia is not an "any more enemy". It has been one since WW2 but you know that already.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> You're too young to remember, but The States has had a decades old poor history with Russia. I was not exactly clear in my original post. The States and Russia are almost natural enemies. So it is in the US's interest to make Putin the evil one, no matter what really happened. And we cannot believe what we hear on the news. Pay attention to what words are used. If the Ukranians are the "terrorists" that is a way to get sympathy for the Russians or visa versa.


I remember the war, and Stalin was nearly as bad if not as bad as Hitler. The cold war was scary, and you make a good point that the relationship has never been that good. I admit I am not a fan of Putin -- I think he is arrogant and I think he is looking to take a lot more control of portions of Europe.

I am not an expert but have strong feelings that he is behind the takeover attempt and would love to take over parts of the Ukraine.

I remember how dreadful the Russians suffered in the war too. I do remember the news which came out of Europe after the war. So many different opinions. I don't like Putin at all.

I don't see how we can't depend to some extent on the news as there is no other way of getting information. It is interesting - I am watching the Repubs on CNN and lots of talk of making them pay a ' heavy price' etc. etc.

I am one person and I am not expert. it is a dreadful mess.

NOTE: I just watched a Canadian Reporter on Global newson the edge of the site. He showed bodies in black bags all along the road beside the crash but said that there were still many many more to be covered and moved. There was a Russian man with a rifle and a mask over his face refusing to allow him on the site. He said that there were bodies all over the place. He said that the bodies had been examined and things taken. Much like what has been reported on the American News.

I have watched this reporter before in different places and I trust his news. with our Global National news and we watch Global news and CBC all the time. I would think he was telling it like it is.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

SQM said:


> Of course that is true, but Russia is not an "any more enemy". It has been one since WW2 but you know that already.


Well, the U S tends to have "real" enemies and pretend underground enemies that we just spy on like Germany. We are so into being the police of the world that we no longer have any credibility.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> I would like to hear Canadian news. It may have a different and more objective spin on things.


I have to be honest -- a lot of our news is feed from US sources. I do believe that we have newspaper writers and some TV newscasters who are individuals and don't follow the American news feeds. I am a bit irritated right now by CNN as they seem to be talking to Republican politicians who are strongly critical of Obama and demand he takes action etc. I have seen one Democrat interviewed in the last hour.

It is hard for a country the size of ours when we live next door to a World power. Everything that happens to us is 
affected by the US actions. I have been following most US and Canadian News programs and most seem to be along the same ideas. Those on the Right in the States are much more interested in taking 'strong' action, than I have seen here. I don't watch Fox News. I just can't stomach them and I doubt they will be truthful anyway. I also don't get MSNBC although I do like Rachel Maddow.

I have been watching the news all day.

I think those who shot down the plane did it deliberately and they are thumbing their noses at the world. I believe that they chose to do it on their own but those are feelings, no proof.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I am confused about what I have been hearing re: the downed plane. Seems like the American Court of Opinion is blaming Putin. I am not sure. What do you think?


It's not a matter of opinion. When further investigation is done, more will be known. But from what I've seen of Putin, I wouldn't put it past him.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It's not a matter of opinion. When further investigation is done, more will be known. But from what I've seen of Putin, I wouldn't put it past him.


I agree completely. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I think everyone sees what they believe or what they can deal with at the moment.


Sometimes I wonder whether they believe what they claim is happening or just go along with the negativity because they want Obama to look more like a failure than he is.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I think it is in America's interest to create a foe out of Putin because Western Ukraine is more right-winged with fascist ideology but open to American Commerce. Putin, being a communist, is not playing ball with The States.


China is a communist country and has no trouble playing ball with the US. I think Putin is doing what he's doing because he's a despot, not because he's a communist.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> Well, the U S tends to have "real" enemies and pretend underground enemies that we just spy on like Germany. We are so into being the police of the world that we no longer have any credibility.


That recent spy escapade was a joke. All countries are spying on each other. No new news there.

America needs to police the world because the world must be Capitalistic.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

serendipetty said:


> Whoa. You seriously don't see the difference between a citizen's group and a corporate entity? Really? I know they called themselves 'Citizens United' but you didn't really fall for that ploy, did you?
> 
> No wonder SCOTUS is getting away with giving human civil rights to corporations when even "liberals" can't tell the difference.
> 
> I'm all for funding elections solely by public funding. But until then you can't be conflating corporate entities with a group of teachers trying to preserve basic workers rights.


Thanks. Teachers have come away with so little recently that anyone who thinks the NEA is comparable to Citizens United isn't giving the subject enough thought.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> China is a communist country and has no trouble playing ball with the US. I think Putin is doing what he's doing because he's a despot, not because he's a communist.


I agree Purl. I think he is looking for more territory and the Ukraine is his first step toward gaining his objectives. He has supplied those rockets to those who are pro Russia and who have taken over a part of the Ukraine. I am not saying the Ukraine Government is perfect. I don't know enough about the situation to say that. _The are just my opinions from what I have been watching and reading_. As I said previously, I don'tthink he planned the take down of the aircraft. I do think he did give thek to the Pro Russian rebels. there is no other way they would have them. I think those who had the missiles might have done that on their own. I don't really believe they were surprised it was an airliner though as they have shot down other planes from the sounds of things. Makes you wonder why Malaysia Airlines was flying over a territory that was in the midst of a war. We pulled out of flying over there a few days before,I understand. (Not confirmed) I did hear that on Canadian news the day the plane was shot down.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> That recent spy escapade was a joke. All countries are spying on each other. No new news there.
> 
> America needs to police the world because the world must be Capitalistic.


After what happened on 9/11 I am glad they do. I don't think they would be smart not to know what was going on. Do you think they should not be aware what is going on behind the scenes? I think they have to cover your backs, and it isn't bad that they also cover ours at the same time. 
I understand you might not agree with me, but I will take our system over any others - especially what i have seen of communism in Eastern Europe and China and other Communist Countries.

Things seem to be going downhill rapidly lately. I worry.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

serendipetty said:


> I'm sorry, but we're you of the naive impression that we don't or even shouldn't keep a spy's eye on our allies? Are you equally naive in thinking that Germany doesn't spy on us?


I am (so naively) saying that we have no high ground and I am sick of our country thinking that we do and are on some type of high moral ground.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> After what happened on 9/11 I am glad they do. I don't think they would be smart not to know what was going on. Do you think they should not be aware what is going on behind the scenes? I think they have to cover your backs, and it isn't bad that they also cover ours at the same time.
> I understand you might not agree with me, but I will take our system over any others - especially what i have seen of communism in Eastern Europe and China and other Communist Countries.
> 
> Things seem to be going downhill rapidly lately. I worry.


This is where the rubber hits the road between liberals and progressives.....capitalism is failing us.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Confuzzled said:


> I do apologise for being offensive.
> 
> I do indeed know my "world" history and "personal" history. One's point of view varies as to what is amusing and what is not. I freely acknowledge your right to scorn me from your point of view. I reserve my right to a sense of humour ........ Please forgive this humble idiot. I'll tell the family what I have done and said and ask them if I am wicked.
> 
> ...


Really. Really?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> That recent spy escapade was a joke. All countries are spying on each other. No new news there.
> 
> America needs to police the world because the world must be Capitalistic.


The one idea I've gotten so far from Robert Reich's _Supercapitalism_ is that democracy can't happen without it, and capitalism needs democracy to keep it in check.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> FYI: the phrase "Arbeit macht frei" was in use before the Nazi's claimed it. Just because it was used by the Nazi's does not mean it is derogatory.
> 
> _The expression comes from the title of a novel by German philologist Lorenz Diefenbach, Arbeit macht frei: Erzählung von Lorenz Diefenbach (1873), in which gamblers and fraudsters find the path to virtue through labour. The phrase was also used in French ("le travail rend libre!") by Auguste Forel, a Swiss ant scientist, neuroanatomist and psychiatrist, in his "Fourmis de la Suisse" ("Ants of Switzerland") (1920). In 1922, the Deutsche Schulverein of Vienna, an ethnic nationalist "protective" organization of Germans within the Austrian empire, printed membership stamps with the phrase Arbeit macht frei. It was adopted in 1928 by the Weimar government as a slogan extolling the effects of their desired policy of large-scale public works programmes to end unemployment. This use of the phrase was continued by the Nazi Party when it came to power in 1933._
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeit_macht_frei


Once the evil nazi trash used the phrase, it's tainted forever.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> The words, themselves, have hurt no one. It was the Nazi's that did, Just like a gun by itself, has hurt no one. It is the person using it that kills. Get real!


Spoken by a real nazi lover.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Once the evil nazi trash used the phrase, it's tainted forever.


You can see that, and I can see that, and so can the large majority of people here, but still there are one or two who feel the need to protect the slogan.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> The one idea I've gotten so far from Robert Reich's _Supercapitalism_ is that democracy can't happen without it, and capitalism needs democracy to keep it in check.


Is Democracy able to keep Capitalism in check? What about that 1% we all kvetch about? Capitalism is running amok here and abroad. I cannot comment on the first part of the quote.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> This is where the rubber hits the road between liberals and progressives.....capitalism is failing us.


I am not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that you believe you should not be watching what other countries are doing? I think the Libs and Progressives are not that far apart. What is your feeling about how the US should handle the situation?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Spoken by a real nazi lover.


Obviously you were not born then or too young to have lived through it and seen the aftermath. Read the story of the camps and you might have more empathy and understanding.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Is Democracy able to keep Capitalism in check? What about that 1% we all kvetch about? Capitalism is running amok here and abroad. I cannot comment on the first part of the quote.


That's what he means by supercapitalism, capitalism without government regulation, which is necessary to make it work for the population in general. It may be a lost cause here, thanks to the hard work of so many of our legislators, but I hope that's not true elsewhere.

You realize this is one reason the right keeps insisting the US is not a democracy. They don't want it to be one.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> I do believe the title of this thread is "Current Events." What is more current than the babies that are killed at this minute than an event in history 70 years old?
> 
> I will never be sorry about trying to stop the murder of babies.


And yet you support nazis.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I am not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that you believe you should not be watching what other countries are doing? I think the Libs and Progressives are not that far apart. What is your feeling about how the US should handle the situation?


We are very far apart. There is watching and there is spying and invading privacy. Listening to Angela Merkel's phone conversations is not watching. I do believe there is a greater difference between liberals and progressives than there is between conservatives and liberals.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Obviously you were not born then or too young to have lived through it and seen the aftermath. Read the story of the camps and you might have more empathy and understanding.


Why did you write this to me?


----------



## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> Once the evil nazi trash used the phrase, it's tainted forever.


Some people will never understand that, just as some will never be able to free themselves of the myth concerning the "heritage" demonstrated by the Confederate battle flag.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> There is reacting and overreacting, it has nothing to do with fitting in with a certain group. Carrying on by overreacting after the apology was given is unnecessary in my book. One either accepts the apology or not. Your group chose not to accept it. In all your rantings, not one of you asked the poster what she meant by the phrase she used. I see it was more important to get in on the bandwagon and attack her first and then not accept her apology. Good for you.


That was 8 and 10 pages ago. Think FROZEN and let it go, Please.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Wasn't Russia an Allie in WWII?



SQM said:


> Of course that is true, but Russia is not an "any more enemy". It has been one since WW2 but you know that already.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> China is a communist country and has no trouble playing ball with the US. I think Putin is doing what he's doing because he's a despot, not because he's a communist.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> That recent spy escapade was a joke. All countries are spying on each other. No new news there.
> 
> America needs to police the world because the world must be Capitalistic.


Why capitalist?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm with you goddess. USA has no claim to the high moral ground. Communism is dead. Capitalism has grave problems. The times they are a changing.



peacegoddess said:


> I am (so naively) saying that we have no high ground and I am sick of our country thinking that we do and are on some type of high moral ground.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> This is where the rubber hits the road between liberals and progressives.....capitalism is failing us.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> Once the evil nazi trash used the phrase, it's tainted forever.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: True!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sounds like a Nazi with NRA card.



ute4kp said:


> Spoken by a real nazi lover.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You can see that, and I can see that, and so can the large majority of people here, but still there are one or two who feel the need to protect the slogan.


They just insist on using it to see what they can stir up. Shame.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> Why capitalist?


Because we do not do business with Communistic countries. So the more Capitalistic countries, the more places we can set up our industries. Or to say it another way - the better it is for the 1% to have a lot of Capitalistic countries.

Listening to the news covering the plane and Israel. Trying to listen carefully for bias.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> I'm with you goddess. USA has no claim to the high moral ground. Communism is dead. Capitalism has grave problems. The times they are a changing.


Communism is still practiced in China, North Korea and Cuba. But it only seems to be doing a bit well in China. But it certainly is not dead.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Communism is still practiced in China, North Korea and Cuba. But it only seems to be doing a bit well in China. But it certainly is not dead.


And China is the country with which we do most of our business. So we do in fact do business with at least one Communist country.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We do a lot of business with China. If it gets much better for the 1%, the rest of us will disappear. What are you talking about?



SQM said:


> Because we do not do business with Communistic countries. So the more Capitalistic countries, the more places we can set up our industries. Or to say it another way - the better it is for the 1% to have a lot of Capitalistic countries.
> 
> Listening to the news covering the plane and Israel. Trying to listen carefully for bias.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Many countries practice a form a socialism, Scandinavian countries, Costa Rica, European countries.

If you weigh your three countries (small and isolated except for China) against the rest of the World it is heavily weighted against Communism. Ok, Communism is not dead, but dying. Granted, current strife may change things is ways we do not expect.



SQM said:


> Communism is still practiced in China, North Korea and Cuba. But it only seems to be doing a bit well in China. But it certainly is not dead.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> And China is the country with which we do most of our business. So we do in fact do business with at least one Communist country.


We do business with China despite it's reputation for ignoring human rights because we are a Capitalist Nation and money is #1 to us. (Does anyone see any high moral ground here?)


----------



## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Humans have human nature. 
Greed is part of that. I don't think it matters whether it is those who are .001 of the 1%ers or the folks we love to make fun of because they want the government out of their socialist Medicare and SSA check, or those temporarily embarrassed millionaires purportedly mentioned by Steinbeck.
"I got mine" runs pretty deep.



damemary said:


> We do business with China despite it's reputation for ignoring human rights because we are a Capitalist Nation and money is #1 to us. (Does anyone see any high moral ground here?)


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And the question remains, does anyone see high moral ground here?



Knitanon said:


> Humans have human nature.
> Greed is part of that. I don't think it matters whether it is those who are .001 of the 1%ers or the folks we love to make fun of because they want the government out of their socialist Medicare and SSA check, or those temporarily embarrassed millionaires purportedly mentioned by Steinbeck.
> "I got mine" runs pretty deep.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> And China is the country with which we do most of our business. So we do in fact do business with at least one Communist country.


We have to do BIG business with China because of all the financial loans we have taken from them. They are also leaning more toward capitalism since it has proven profitable. So maybe they are a hybrid.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

SQM said:


> We have to do BIG business with China because of all the financial loans we have taken from them. They are also leaning more toward capitalism since it has proven profitable. So maybe they are a hybrid.


We do big business with China because Americans value quanity over quality. China holds something like 8% of our bonds. Japan 7%. 
The difference I see is that people like to wander into the largest cutthroat retailer on earth to do business. It may change, China is cultivating African countries and South American nations now.

http://www.factcheck.org/2013/11/who-holds-our-debt/


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> I am confused about what I have been hearing re: the downed plane. Seems like the American Court of Opinion is blaming Putin. I am not sure. What do you think?


I get an e-mail from GoComics every day, and the consensus among a number of the political cartoonists including Danziger, Anderson, and Rob Rogers puts the blame on Putin and his policies.

Wherever the blame belongs, I hope accountability can be made to stick. Whatever the outcome of the investigation, there are so many dead people, so many children, that there can never be true justice for their having their lives stolen so cruelly.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> We have enough foes without purposefully creating another...don't you think?????


It would be more acknowledging a foe than making one.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> I get an e-mail from GoComics every day, and the consensus among a number of the political cartoonists including Danziger, Anderson, and Rob Rogers puts the blame on Putin and his policies.
> 
> Wherever the blame belongs, I hope accountability can be made to stick. Whatever the outcome of the investigation, there are so many dead people, so many children, that there can never be true justice for their having their lives stolen so cruelly.


Still cannot grasp the motive for shooting down a passenger plane unless it was a mistake.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> We are very far apart. There is watching and there is spying and invading privacy. Listening to Angela Merkel's phone conversations is not watching. I do believe there is a greater difference between liberals and progressives than there is between conservatives and liberals.


I fear that you are naive if you do not at least suspect that we are being spied upon as aggressively as other countries are able to manage. If each country does not know what is being planned by other countries there is great vulnerability in regard to economic, social, and security issues. No country can afford to be caught "with its pants down".

If the US had had the espionage capability in 1941 that we have today we might have had a chance to prevent the slaughter in Pearl Harbor. We might have learned about the Nazi genocides in time to save millions of innocent lives.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> I fear that you are naive if you do not at least suspect that we are being spied upon as aggressively as other countries are able to manage. If each country does not know what is being planned by other countries there is great vulnerability in regard to economic, social, and security issues. No country can afford to be caught "with its pants down".
> 
> If the US had had the espionage capability in 1941 that we have today we might have had a chance to prevent the slaughter in Pearl Harbor. We might have learned about the Nazi genocides in time to save millions of innocent lives.


Roosevelt knew what was going on and did nothing to stop the slaughter of millions of innocent lives. Espionage equipment is only as good as the Prez wants to make use of the info.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> We do business with China despite it's reputation for ignoring human rights because we are a Capitalist Nation and money is #1 to us. (Does anyone see any high moral ground here?)


By "we" I assume you mean those _people_ who have considerably more rights than the rest of us, i.e., corporations.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> I get an e-mail from GoComics every day, and the consensus among a number of the political cartoonists including Danziger, Anderson, and Rob Rogers puts the blame on Putin and his policies.
> 
> Wherever the blame belongs, I hope accountability can be made to stick. Whatever the outcome of the investigation, there are so many dead people, so many children, that there can never be true justice for their having their lives stolen so cruelly.


In the end, there was no justice for the Lockerbie victims. I expect nothing from this investigation.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> I fear that you are naive if you do not at least suspect that we are being spied upon as aggressively as other countries are able to manage. If each country does not know what is being planned by other countries there is great vulnerability in regard to economic, social, and security issues. No country can afford to be caught "with its pants down".
> 
> If the US had had the espionage capability in 1941 that we have today we might have had a chance to prevent the slaughter in Pearl Harbor. We might have learned about the Nazi genocides in time to save millions of innocent lives.


We in fact did have some of that knowledge but would not act on it because we didn't want the Axis to know we could read their communications.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Still cannot grasp the motive for shooting down a passenger plane unless it was a mistake.


Then you're not thinking like a Cossack.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Roosevelt knew what was going on and did nothing to stop the slaughter of millions of innocent lives. Espionage equipment is only as good as the Prez wants to make use of the info.


Exactly. Thank you.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Then you're not thinking like a Cossack.


Nu? So how does a Cossack think? What if the fascistic Ukrainians shot down the plane?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Nu? So how does a Cossack think? What if the fascistic Ukrainians shot down the plane?


They are the Cossacks.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree, Marilyn. Eyes open; not eyes wide shut.



MarilynKnits said:


> It would be more acknowledging a foe than making one.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> It's not a matter of opinion. When further investigation is done, more will be known. But from what I've seen of Putin, I wouldn't put it past him.


And keep in mind that Putin was born in 1952 into a Soviet Union that was well established. I believe he is so steeped in the reality of the United Soviet Socialist Republic he was born into that it's likely that he wants to recreate it. Russia has term limits for presidents much like the US. Putin served for two terms, skipped one because he was ineligible to participate in it, and ran again in 2012. He can run again in 2016. One of his grandfathers, Spiridon Ivanovich Putin, was a chef who cooked for Vladimir Lenin, Lenin's wife, and for Joseph Stalin.

I find it very easy to believe that whoever fired the missile that downed flight #17 was trained to use that kind of rocket by Russians and was probably quietly applauded in private by Putin.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Maid, I have been trying to figure out who is your avatar and my sloth brain can only think of Helen Keller. If so, her profession was as a preachin' socialist and she would travel all over giving her socialist talks. That was her purpose - not being blind and deaf.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> I fear that you are naive if you do not at least suspect that we are being spied upon as aggressively as other countries are able to manage. If each country does not know what is being planned by other countries there is great vulnerability in regard to economic, social, and security issues. No country can afford to be caught "with its pants down".
> 
> If the US had had the espionage capability in 1941 that we have today we might have had a chance to prevent the slaughter in Pearl Harbor. We might have learned about the Nazi genocides in time to save millions of innocent lives.


The U S knew about the genocides longggggggggggg before we entered the war. Then, as now, the military armament groups made big profits from arming the Germans. As for Pearl Harbor the diplomats ignored their intel.


----------



## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

damemary said:


> And the question remains, does anyone see high moral ground here?


I think that it is pretty clear, without any moral center there can be no high ground.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitanon said:


> I think that it is pretty clear, without any moral center there can be no high ground.


I need a day or two to think this over.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> Still cannot grasp the motive for shooting down a passenger plane unless it was a mistake.


There are some evil people in the world. When they are drunk that exacerbates the evil. Give them lethal toys when they are drunk and horror can ensue, as it just did.

I think part of it is testosterone poisoning and its effects on the brain. Perhaps the men with "Low T" are the kind and gentle heroes in our lives, with the balanced hormones that keep them strong but not stupid.


----------



## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> There are some evil people in the world. When they are drunk that exacerbates the evil. Give them lethal toys when they are drunk and horror can ensue, as it just did.
> 
> I think part of it is testosterone poisoning and its effects on the brain. Perhaps the men with "Low T" are the kind and gentle heroes in our lives, with the balanced hormones that keep them strong but not stupid.


And it may have been error. We don't know we will never know, unless someone was stupid enough to record a plan in some fashion.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I need a day or two to think this over.


LOL, go for it. Be sure to let me know which world leaders you see as moral characters. I would love to consider that.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Maid, I have been trying to figure out who is your avatar and my sloth brain can only think of Helen Keller. If so, her profession was as a preachin' socialist and she would travel all over giving her socialist talks. That was her purpose - not being blind and deaf.


Yes, indeed, that's Helen Keller. Part of her purpose was to give socialist speeches out of concern for the plight of many Americans. She also was very active in causes for the blind, such as helping to make the Talking Books plan a reality. I admire her.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Yes, indeed, that's Helen Keller. Part of her purpose was to give socialist speeches out of concern for the plight of many Americans. She also was very active in causes for the blind, such as helping to make the Talking Books plan a reality. I admire her.


Is there anyone who doesn't admire her? Her achievements outdid most people's, notwithstanding (I've never used that word before) her handicaps.


----------



## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

I just heard this on the radio today. I'm not sure why "they" have to get a court ruling. Are they trying to dismantle the ACA by chipping away at it?That's what it seems to me. Of course there is always the chance I'm reading into what's happening. It looks to me as tho they want to throw many people off health insurance so they have nothing. I'm thankful my state created it's own marketplace. (and thankful I have access to a PC so I can cut/Paste since it's difficult on a tablet he he.)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/22/republican-judges-obamacare-ruling-gutted_n_5609795.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D505327

or

http://preview.tinyurl.com/pd8jkh4

IN PART:
"WASHINGTON -- Two Republican judges on the D.C. Circuit Court have ruled that the equivalent of a typo is enough to strip health care subsidies from up to five million people, dealing what would be a death blow to the Affordable Care Act if the decision is allowed to stand. The one Democrat on the panel dissented.

The three-judge panel ruled in Halbig v. Burwell that people in the 36 states that use the federal health insurance exchange are ineligible for subsidized insurance. The decision would also affect those who purchased insurance through the exchange but don't receive subsidies, as reneging on the payments would lead to a rapid increase in insurance rates for everyone.

The White House said Tuesday the decision will be appealed to the entire D.C. circuit court -- what's known as an en banc review -- where Democrats hold a majority that is nearly certain to overturn the GOP judges' aggressive move. The next step could be the Supreme Court, which already upheld the Affordable Care Act in a separate case two years ago."

I found another link with video report on CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/22/politics/obamacare-subsidy-ruling/index.html?hpt=hp_t2


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

I think they just can't accept "you lost". People like to say that Dems and Reps are all alike. Being neither, I say that is just plain silly. 
Even those people who did, and do, believe that George W. Bush stole the presidency recognized that hopes were sunk for four and then another four years. 
Wait it out, accept what you can get and stry again seems to be the Dem way. 
Recently at least the Reps seem to have to kick and scream through the whole presidency. 
When the Dems roll into the White House for another few years...



ute4kp said:


> I just heard this on the radio today. I'm not sure why "they" have to get a court ruling. Are they trying to dismantle the ACA by chipping away at it?That's what it seems to me. Of course there is always the chance I'm reading into what's happening. It looks to me as tho they want to throw many people off health insurance so they have nothing. I'm thankful my state created it's own marketplace. (and thankful I have access to a PC so I can cut/Paste since it's difficult on a tablet he he.)
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/22/republican-judges-obamacare-ruling-gutted_n_5609795.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D505327
> 
> ...


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

ute4kp said:


> I just heard this on the radio today. I'm not sure why "they" have to get a court ruling. Are they trying to dismantle the ACA by chipping away at it?That's what it seems to me. Of course there is always the chance I'm reading into what's happening. It looks to me as tho they want to throw many people off health insurance so they have nothing. I'm thankful my state created it's own marketplace. (and thankful I have access to a PC so I can cut/Paste since it's difficult on a tablet he he.)
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/22/republican-judges-obamacare-ruling-gutted_n_5609795.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D505327
> 
> ...


No, I don't think you are reading into it or that you are wrong. I think "they" will do anything "they" can to undermine american's needs. It's not just with the ACA, it's with everything. "They" will cut off their nose to spite "their" faces.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Natureschampion said:


> No, I don't think you are reading into it or that you are wrong. I think "they" will do anything "they" can to undermine american's needs. It's not just with the ACA, it's with everything. "They" will cut off their nose to spite "their" faces.


If not their own noses, ours.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> By "we" I assume you mean those _people_ who have considerably more rights than the rest of us, i.e., corporations.


You said it. Oy vey! What this country has come to...


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Knitanon said:


> If not their own noses, ours.


Unfortunately, you're right. But the thing is, "they" are not an island and "they" need us more than we need "them." When no one in this country except "them" have jobs (outsourcing), who will buy "their" bullsh*t I mean products? When everyone else is sick because they can't afford healthcare, who will be footing the bill? "They" will still have to live with us, so if there is an outbreak of something and no one but "they" have health insurance, how far will that health insurance really get them if the epidemic is bad enough? Although, I wouldn't put it beyond "them" to start making "communities" for people to "live in" to "keep them safe"...

I said it just now, but I'll say it again; Oy vey!


----------



## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

damemary said:


> We do a lot of business with China. If it gets much better for the 1%, the rest of us will disappear. What are you talking about?


I'm responding to this comment, but this applies to a few I've seen (I haven't read them all).

Despite what people think, china is NOT a true socialist/communist country. They ARE capitalist, like us. They have an upper 1% who gets all the money and industry, and makes all the laws. They control and play games with peoples's lives, just like our upper 1%. Do they have to abide by the "population control" laws? I highly doubt it.

We will disappear if we do nothing. Edmund Burke said "all evil needs to triumph is that good men do nothing." Well, how do we be those "good men" and do something? I fear it is already too late.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

There hasn't been a communist country that hasn't run with/by an elite. That is why they have failed. Human nature doesn't allow a community based society. However, they are not capitalist like us. The government controls so much and is very corrupt. 
No oligarchy there.



Natureschampion said:


> I'm responding to this comment, but this applies to a few I've seen (I haven't read them all).
> 
> Despite what people think, china is NOT a true socialist/communist country. They ARE capitalist, like us. They have an upper 1% who gets all the money and industry, and makes all the laws. They control and play games with peoples's lives, just like our upper 1%. Do they have to abide by the "population control" laws? I highly doubt it.
> 
> We will disappear if we do nothing. Edmund Burke said "all evil needs to triumph is that good men do nothing." Well, how do we be those "good men" and do something? I fear it is already too late.


----------



## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

There hasn't been a communist country that hasn't run with/by an elite. That is why they have failed. Human nature doesn't allow a community based society. However, they are not capitalist like us. The government controls so much and is very corrupt. 
No oligarchy there.



Natureschampion said:


> I'm responding to this comment, but this applies to a few I've seen (I haven't read them all).
> 
> Despite what people think, china is NOT a true socialist/communist country. They ARE capitalist, like us. They have an upper 1% who gets all the money and industry, and makes all the laws. They control and play games with peoples's lives, just like our upper 1%. Do they have to abide by the "population control" laws? I highly doubt it.
> 
> We will disappear if we do nothing. Edmund Burke said "all evil needs to triumph is that good men do nothing." Well, how do we be those "good men" and do something? I fear it is already too late.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Knitanon said:


> There hasn't been a communist country that hasn't run with/by an elite. That is why they have failed. Human nature doesn't allow a community based society. However, they are not capitalist like us. The government controls so much and is very corrupt.
> No oligarchy there.


It does on a small scale. I've been to Israel and seen how the kibbutz (communal farms, kind of like coops) are run. Everyone has a job and everyone does their job. Even the children have work to do besides their school work. The very old, very young, and disabled are cared for by EVERYONE. This is much like how the Native American societies were. It seems to only work in smaller groups, though.

How is their government controlling so much and being so corrupt any different from us, nowadays? Their government IS the oligarchy. Our government is full of puppets of our oligarchy. I'm still failing to see the difference,


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I just read that many global airlines will not fly planes for 24 hours to Israel. Scarey to see how quickly a country can be isolated. There are also a huge number of anti-Israel riots in France, especially Paris. These countries have been coiled up like snakes since 1945 and with the current global financial worries, they are ready to strike.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

France has western Europe's largest population of Muslims. Apparently there is a ban on the rioters. Supposedly the police are trying to stop them.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Read the whole thing. Parts I feel I have read over and over before (Hamas has always played this game), others, well, yeah...

Will it ever end? Why are people so spiteful and destructive? That they are willing to destroy their own society in order to desolate an entire population... It's so... I can't even think of a word that describes that.

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-07-11/is-hamas-trying-to-get-gazans-killed


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Natureschampion said:


> Read the whole thing. Parts I feel I have read over and over before (Hamas has always played this game), others, well, yeah...
> 
> Will it ever end? Why are people so spiteful and destructive? That they are willing to destroy their own society in order to desolate an entire population... It's so... I can't even think of a word that describes that.
> 
> http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-07-11/is-hamas-trying-to-get-gazans-killed


I don't care for the one sided reporting , ex: CNN showing Gazan people injured. It's as tho Cnn is trying to make the viewer be against Israel.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

ute4kp said:


> I don't care for the one sided reporting , ex: CNN showing Gazan people injured. It's as tho Cnn is trying to make the viewer be against Israel.


My mom sent me a picture that Hamas released of a family that Israel had supposedly killed in bombings. In actuality, this family was killed in Syria. That's another game they have been playing far too long and it makes me sick. Beyond sick. To use people's loss and tragedy to suit their ends. I guess when you have no regard for human life... What is reprehensible is that people and the media eat it up.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> I don't care for the one sided reporting , ex: CNN showing Gazan people injured. It's as tho Cnn is trying to make the viewer be against Israel.


Absolutely the case. MSNBC is a bit better. Chris Matthews reported the subtlety pro-Gaza stuff but then had Chuck Schumer on as a great guest, rationally explaining and comparing Israel to Gaza.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I just read that many global airlines will not fly planes for 24 hours to Israel. Scarey to see how quickly a country can be isolated. There are also a huge number of anti-Israel riots in France, especially Paris. These countries have been coiled up like snakes since 1945 and with the current global financial worries, they are ready to strike.


There have been demonstrations in England, too, blaming the Conservative govt. for being too chummy with Israel. One of the rabbis around here is leaving to visit his children in Israel tomorrow night. He must be very worried.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> There have been demonstrations in England, too, blaming the Conservative govt. for being too chummy with Israel. One of the rabbis around here is leaving to visit his children in Israel tomorrow night. He must be very worried.


I have friends in my area with kids and nephews in Israel of draft age and they are worried sick. I quit asking them questions.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Natureschampion said:


> Read the whole thing. Parts I feel I have read over and over before (Hamas has always played this game), others, well, yeah...
> 
> Will it ever end? Why are people so spiteful and destructive? That they are willing to destroy their own society in order to desolate an entire population... It's so... I can't even think of a word that describes that.
> 
> http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-07-11/is-hamas-trying-to-get-gazans-killed


Thanks for the link. Very interesting view on the situation.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> There have been demonstrations in England, too, blaming the Conservative govt. for being too chummy with Israel. One of the rabbis around here is leaving to visit his children in Israel tomorrow night. He must be very worried.


I heard on the radio today that the US has canceled all flights to Israel.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I have friends in my area with kids and nephews in Israel of draft age and they are worried sick. I quit asking them questions.


My great-nephew (my brother's grandson) joined the IDF about 2 years ago, and discovered that he had a problem with his feet that prevented him from running as fast as the others. So now that real fighting has broken out, officers won't send him into Gaza because of his slowness, but rather than send him home, they have him training newer soldiers to become snipers. His mother says he calls every couple of days wishing he could be on the front with his friends. He doesn't think what he's doing is important enough. I guess being caught in a firefight, unable to escape, would be more important.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I heard on the radio today that the US has canceled all flights to Israel.


I guess the rabbi will be disappointed. All flights, or all flights by US airlines? Can they stop El-Al from flying there. I suppose the airlines can send planes to somewhere on the way, like Cyprus, and then the second leg has nothing to do with the US.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

alcameron said:


> I heard on the radio today that the US has canceled all flights to Israel.


But what can we do? We can't put passengers into danger. That's all Israel needs, too, is to be blamed for the death of Tourists.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> I guess the rabbi will be disappointed. All flights, or all flights by US airlines? Can they stop El-Al from flying there. I suppose the airlines can send planes to somewhere on the way, like Cyprus, and then the second leg has nothing to do with the US.


That's male pride and patriotism for ya.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Natureschampion said:


> But what can we do? We can't put passengers into danger. That's all Israel needs, too, is to be blamed for the death of Tourists.


Here's a headline from Fox News: *FAA tells US airlines that all flights to Tel Aviv airport prohibited for 24 hours*. So 1) if Fox is right (a big if) it's specifically US airlines; and 2) would someone parse that and tell me whether that's English?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Natureschampion said:


> That's male pride and patriotism for ya.


Sorry, maybe it's reading too much Fox, but I don't understand what you mean.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Natureschampion said:


> But what can we do? We can't put passengers into danger. That's all Israel needs, too, is to be blamed for the death of Tourists.


The ban is for 24 hours and will be reevaluated after that. I agree, we don't need to send in planes where we know there are rockets blazing all over..


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> Sorry, maybe it's reading too much Fox, but I don't understand what you mean.


Oops, meant to quote this reply.



Poor Purl said:


> My great-nephew (my brother's grandson) joined the IDF about 2 years ago, and discovered that he had a problem with his feet that prevented him from running as fast as the others. So now that real fighting has broken out, officers won't send him into Gaza because of his slowness, but rather than send him home, they have him training newer soldiers to become snipers. His mother says he calls every couple of days wishing he could be on the front with his friends. He doesn't think what he's doing is important enough. I guess being caught in a firefight, unable to escape, would be more important.


Does that make more sense? Lol


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

It is not an oligarchy in one major way. The power structure in China is HUGE. 
The number of people holding power in the US is shrinking all the time. Just one example would be what are now called multi-media conglomerates. 
This article just hints at the power these companies share mainly in the US.
http://elitedaily.com/money/the-worlds-10-largest-media-conglomerates/
That is not to suggest that the US has reached the definition of oligarchy, yet. 
The corruption in China is massive, people in the US are still horrified by police brutality. The Chinese were not even allowed to observe the anniversary of the horror in Tiananmen Square. 
While the political system in the US is far from perfect, corrupt politicians are still held accountable. In China it would appear that a foreign dignitary has to die before party officials are investigated. 
And yes, a kibbutz is a wonderful example of a socailist society working on a small scale.



Natureschampion said:


> It does on a small scale. I've been to Israel and seen how the kibbutz (communal farms, kind of like coops) are run. Everyone has a job and everyone does their job. Even the children have work to do besides their school work. The very old, very young, and disabled are cared for by EVERYONE. This is much like how the Native American societies were. It seems to only work in smaller groups, though.
> 
> How is their government controlling so much and being so corrupt any different from us, nowadays? Their government IS the oligarchy. Our government is full of puppets of our oligarchy. I'm still failing to see the difference,


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> Here's a headline from Fox News: *FAA tells US airlines that all flights to Tel Aviv airport prohibited for 24 hours*. So 1) if Fox is right (a big if) it's specifically US airlines; and 2) would someone parse that and tell me whether that's English?


I don't think FOX news knows proper English.

The FAA only has jurisdiction over American flights. Other countries have postponed flights to Israel as well.

On one hand, safety needs to be considered. Especially in the wake of the recent tragedy with the Malaysian flight. On the other, it greatly hurts Israel's economy and support when they need it the most. Of course, human lives comes first. I just wish it weren't this way...


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Here's a headline from Fox News: *FAA tells US airlines that all flights to Tel Aviv airport prohibited for 24 hours*. So 1) if Fox is right (a big if) it's specifically US airlines; and 2) would someone parse that and tell me whether that's English?


Many international airlines have stopped flying to Israel. Why not stop flying over the Ukraine? I don't really understand but I do really understand.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Natureschampion said:


> Does that make more sense? Lol


Lots more. Thanks.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

US and now European flights to Israel canceled.
Had to look up canceled. Or cancelled? What do you think?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> US and now European flights to Israel canceled.
> Had to look up canceled. Or cancelled? What do you think?


Al. You are asking us?

Where ever there is not a red line is the correct spelling of cancelled. Plus since the accent in cancel is over the second syllable and it ends with a consonant next to a short vowel, you need to double the final consonant when adding a suffix.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

alcameron said:


> US and now European flights to Israel canceled.
> Had to look up canceled. Or cancelled? What do you think?


I always want to spell it "cancelled" but that's just me. It seems they are both correct, as they both have the same definition in the dictionary.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Canceled. My tablet spell checks -canceled. Hmmm, it just doesn't look right. I have a hard time spelling: license, guarantee, both auto corrected.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

ute4kp said:


> Canceled. My tablet spell checks -canceled. Hmmm, it just doesn't look right. I have a hard time spelling: license, guarantee, both auto corrected.


Mine says "cancelled" is ok to. My dh and I also have to ask each other how to spell "license". "Guarantee" I always have to do a double take.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> Al. You are asking us?
> 
> Where ever there is not a red line is the correct spelling of cancelled. Plus since the accent in cancel is over the second syllable and it ends with a consonant next to a short vowel, you need to double the final consonant when adding a suffix.


Excuse me, but the accent is on the first syllable. CAN-cel.
Cancelled preferred by British. Canceled is US spelling.


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## Mountain Stitches (May 25, 2014)

Is the difference between the American canceled and the British cancelled another one of the changes made by Noah Webster?


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Excuse me, but the accent is on the first syllable. CAN-cel.
> Cancelled preferred by British. Canceled is US spelling.


Hey, I'm British


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Mountain Stitches said:


> Is the difference between the American canceled and the British cancelled another one of the changes made by Noah Webster?


Good question.

This kinda reminds me of my favorite song from MY FAIR LADY (my favorite movie), also the lyrics are the dialogue from George Bernard Shaw's play PYGMALION, "why can't the English teach their children how to speak?" Marvelous! Especially the part that goes "there even are places where English has completely disappeared. Why, in America, they haven't used it for years!" <throat clear> :wink:


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

ute4kp said:


> Hey, I'm British


I must be too, or at least partly. I prefer the English spelling for a lot of things. At least they had the good sense to drop the English system of measurement and use metric! Our way of measuring things is ridiculous and illogical.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Natureschampion said:


> Good question.
> 
> This kinda reminds me of my favorite song from MY FAIR LADY (my favorite movie), also the lyrics are the dialogue from George Bernard Shaw's play PYGMALION, "why can't the English teach their children how to speak?" Marvelous! Especially the part that goes "there even are places where English has completely disappeared. Why, in America, they haven't used it for years!" <throat clear> :wink:


 Hahahaha :lol:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> I just read that many global airlines will not fly planes for 24 hours to Israel. Scarey to see how quickly a country can be isolated. There are also a huge number of anti-Israel riots in France, especially Paris. These countries have been coiled up like snakes since 1945 and with the current global financial worries, they are ready to strike.


Who remembers Alfred Dreyfus? The antiseminism expressed way back then is still alive in so many countries today.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Natureschampion said:


> Good question.
> 
> This kinda reminds me of my favorite song from MY FAIR LADY (my favorite movie), also the lyrics are the dialogue from George Bernard Shaw's play PYGMALION, "why can't the English teach their children how to speak?" Marvelous! Especially the part that goes "there even are places where English has completely disappeared. Why, in America, they haven't used it for years!" <throat clear> :wink:


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Excuse me, but the accent is on the first syllable. CAN-cel.
> Cancelled preferred by British. Canceled is US spelling.


You are right as I knew you would be. I never taught the second part of that spelling rule because I can never hear the accents. But the rest of the rule is certainly correct for one syllable words.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> You are right as I knew you would be. I never taught the second part of that spelling rule because I can never hear the accents. But the rest of the rule is certainly correct for one syllable words.


I think "cancelled" looks better. I think if you listen to another person say the word you'd hear the emphasis. I thought you were a reading specialist or something, Slothy?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Who remembers Alfred Dreyfus? The antiseminism expressed way back then is still alive in so many countries today.


Now I have to look him up. I can't remember stuff like I used to. Accused of treason? French, Jewish and I can't remember the ending.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> I think "cancelled" looks better. I think if you listen to another person say the word you'd hear the emphasis. I thought you were a reading specialist or something, Slothy?


I was and that is why I know all these arcane spelling rules. But I have auditory processing issues so I usually skipped over the second part of that rule. Sloth's way out.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Now I have to look him up. I can't remember stuff like I used to. Accused of treason? French, Jewish and I can't remember the ending.


Semi-bad ending but then he got exonerated in his lifetime.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

SQM said:


> Al. You are asking us?
> 
> Where ever there is not a red line is the correct spelling of cancelled. Plus since the accent in cancel is over the second syllable and it ends with a consonant next to a short vowel, you need to double the final consonant when adding a suffix.


I used to know that rule. It went away. Now since I do all of my writing online anyway, I just doublecheck.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Mountain Stitches said:


> Is the difference between the American canceled and the British cancelled another one of the changes made by Noah Webster?


Webster's 2nd (1934) spelled it with 2 L's; Webster's 3rd (1961) with one. Noah had nothing to do with either of those. The Third also spells "advisor" as "adviser" and leaves out hyphens where they should be. A favorite is "co-worker," which is now "coworker," as in "one who orks cows."


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Who remembers Alfred Dreyfus? The antiseminism expressed way back then is still alive in so many countries today.


Several important French writers fought for Dreyfus's release, Emile Zola and Marcel Proust, to name a couple. I think Zola is the one who saved him.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> The ban is for 24 hours and will be reevaluated after that. I agree, we don't need to send in planes where we know there are rockets blazing all over..


Here's part of a letter from a local (NYC) rabbi who left for Israel Thursday:

July 25, 2014

Dear Members and Friends:

It's hard to believe how normal things seem here in Jerusalem in the middle of what is transpiring in the South. The airport was eerily empty when we arrived, and I saw only one other plane in the airport. We approached Ben Gurion from the Judean desert, a vantage point I don't ever recall from a plane. Of course, everything was safe on the plane, but we did get into an accident on the 133 bus to Giv'at Ze'ev today. Baruch Hashem no one was hurt. This country is united in its resolve and praying as one for the success of our soldiers in their mission. Golda Meir said we will have peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us.

The true story of the phenomenal restraint that our soldiers are showing is that they are amazingly showing more love for the lives of the Gazans than their leaders show themselves. You probably are not shown the images of soldiers leading residents of Gaza to safety and assuring that civilians are taken out of harm's way to the best of their ability. The dichotomy of what our soldiers are doing and how they are portrayed in the outside world is shameful and it has real repercussions in Anti- Semitic protests around the world. That is why it is so important for Monday's rally in NY to be very well attended. Israelis are aware of this support and they appreciate it. I will be speaking to soldiers in Sderot after Shabbos. The Yeshiva there is a rock of support for our young boys who are about to enter an uncertain type of combat for which there is no training.

I am also meeting on Sunday with Miriam Peretz, who just lost 2 sons who were in the Golani Brigades. She is scheduled to speak at OZ in September. Her strength and conviction are inspirational. Over this trip I will be distributing funds that our Congregation very generously donated for a number of timely causes. Among them: extra protective gear for soldiers charged with clearing the tunnels. We also sent very coveted undergarments and socks as well as toiletries for the soldiers. We also made it possible for 20 kids in the South to be taken North for 2 weeks, free from constant escape to shelters. We also sent money to Eli, a large city in Eretz Binyamin, where the breadwinner of 150 families is now in uniform. I'll report further on this trip about other expenditures.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> I was and that is why I know all these arcane spelling rules. But I have auditory processing issues so I usually skipped over the second part of that rule. Sloth's way out.


Maybe Her Slothiness can comment on this one. Last spring I was volunteering for the reading specialist at our neighborhood school. These were elementary students who "needed more practice" reading aloud. We were reading out of an old elementary textbook and the word "fisher" popped up. At first I thought they were talking about some type of bird, but no. They were talking about people who fished, so they were called "fishers." It was probably an effort to avoid "fisherman" (gender bias) so they took it upon themselves to use "fisher." Gee williikers!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Webster's 2nd (1934) spelled it with 2 L's; Webster's 3rd (1961) with one. Noah had nothing to do with either of those. The Third also spells "advisor" as "adviser" and leaves out hyphens where they should be. A favorite is "co-worker," which is now "coworker," as in "one who orks cows."


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> Here's part of a letter from a local (NYC) rabbi who left for Israel Thursday:
> 
> July 25, 2014
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for sharing, PP. I just sent that to my mom who appreciates it as well.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> Maybe Her Slothiness can comment on this one. Last spring I was volunteering for the reading specialist at our neighborhood school. These were elementary students who "needed more practice" reading aloud. We were reading out of an old elementary textbook and the word "fisher" popped up. At first I thought they were talking about some type of bird, but no. They were talking about people who fished, so they were called "fishers." It was probably an effort to avoid "fisherman" (gender bias) so they took it upon themselves to use "fisher." Gee williikers!


Actually, "fisher" is quite correct. The animal is the _secondary_ meaning.

From Merriam-Webster:

fish·er
noun \ˈfi-shər\
Definition of FISHER
1
: one that fishes
2
a : a dark brown North American carnivorous mammal (Martes pennanti) of the weasel family
b : the fur or pelt of this animal
See fisher defined for kids »
Examples of FISHER

<few fishers of lake trout are more ardent or adept than my father>

First Known Use of FISHER
before 12th century
Related to FISHER

Synonyms
fisherman


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Natureschampion said:


> I must be too, or at least partly. I prefer the English spelling for a lot of things. At least they had the good sense to drop the English system of measurement and use metric! Our way of measuring things is ridiculous and illogical.


Here in Canada we are caught in the middle. If you want to put in a tag for colour (English) you have to type color (US)

it is the same with a lot of words so you will see us using both at different times. Our schools taught the British English, not sure about now though.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> Maybe Her Slothiness can comment on this one. Last spring I was volunteering for the reading specialist at our neighborhood school. These were elementary students who "needed more practice" reading aloud. We were reading out of an old elementary textbook and the word "fisher" popped up. At first I thought they were talking about some type of bird, but no. They were talking about people who fished, so they were called "fishers." It was probably an effort to avoid "fisherman" (gender bias) so they took it upon themselves to use "fisher." Gee williikers!


Dear Sugar-Free ( I Hope) Cookie Queen,

I guess PC can control too much like our ladies on D and P suggest. But then, language is very powerful and it shapes how we think so maybe Fishers is a good substitute.

To Our PP - Thanks for sharing the Rabbi's report. I can no longer listen to the progressive news so I am relying on tidbits from friends and Haaretz to get some idea on what is happening in Israel. For once Cruz made some sense when he mentioned the stopping of flights to Israel. Sad to admit, but he said just what I was thinking. He may not be so dumb after all. Just that he is on the wrong side of all the other fences.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Being sugar free doesn't usually help, they just up the fat content which is just as bad.



SQM said:


> Dear Sugar-Free ( I Hope) Cookie Queen,
> 
> I guess PC can control too much like our ladies on D and P suggest. But then, language is very powerful and it shapes how we think so maybe Fishers is a good substitute.
> 
> To Our PP - Thanks for sharing the Rabbi's report. I can no longer listen to the progressive news so I am relying on tidbits from friends and Haaretz to get some idea on what is happening in Israel. For once Cruz made some sense when he mentioned the stopping of flights to Israel. Sad to admit, but he said just what I was thinking. He may not be so dumb after all. Just that he is on the wrong side of all the other fences.


----------



## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> Being sugar free doesn't usually help, they just up the fat content which is just as bad.


The only reason his sounds right is because he is anti-administration.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> The only reason his sounds right is because he is anti-administration.


Not just that, My Young Precious. He spoke the words that are not being mentioned on all the liberal news reports.

BTW - who knows why David Gregory is being bounced from Meet the Press? I once saw him on Lexington Ave. eating an ice cream cone. Took me some time to put a name to his face.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

SQM said:


> Not just that, My Young Precious. He spoke the words that are not being mentioned on all the liberal news reports.
> 
> BTW - who knows why David Gregory is being bounced from Meet the Press? I once saw him on Lexington Ave. eating an ice cream cone. Took me some time to put a name to his face.


I am not sure what that means. I never watch Sunday morning commentary anymore because it is just so much propaganda in my opinion. 
Isn't truth the first casualty of war? 
We won't get a straight story regardless. I have to say that after listening to MSNBC for about 5 minutes this afternoon (can't get much more liberal than that, tho they are NOT news) I was convinced that if I had a call in what Israel should do I would suggest flattening all of Gaza. 
Give people a week to get out and bomb the heck out of it and start over.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Knitanon said:


> I am not sure what that means. I never watch Sunday morning commentary anymore because it is just so much propaganda in my opinion.
> Isn't truth the first casualty of war?
> We won't get a straight story regardless. I have to say that after listening to MSNBC for about 5 minutes this afternoon (can't get much more liberal than that, tho they are NOT news) I was convinced that if I had a call in what Israel should do I would suggest flattening all of Gaza.
> Give people a week to get out and bomb the heck out of it and start over.


Hear, hear! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> I am not sure what that means. I never watch Sunday morning commentary anymore because it is just so much propaganda in my opinion.
> Isn't truth the first casualty of war?
> We won't get a straight story regardless. I have to say that after listening to MSNBC for about 5 minutes this afternoon (can't get much more liberal than that, tho they are NOT news) I was convinced that if I had a call in what Israel should do I would suggest flattening all of Gaza.
> Give people a week to get out and bomb the heck out of it and start over.


Can't help lovin' that Knitanon of mine. You so remind me of a KP member who was not only a great thinker but also a superb researcher if facts were ever needed here. So glad you are here. The void in my heart has been filled. And yes. Those are my exact sentiments. Biggest mistake for Israel to give up the land to them. What president was pressuring Israel to do that?
We should make General Knitanon the head of the IDF.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

That could be interesting. I was talking to a friend and we couldn't help but chat a bit of the similarities to the Turkish invasion of Cyprus. Nobody goes nuts about Turkey hanging on...



SQM said:


> Can't help lovin' that Knitanon of mine. You so remind me of a KP member who was not only a great thinker but also a superb researcher if facts were ever needed here. So glad you are here. The void in my heart has been filled. And yes. Those are my exact sentiments. Biggest mistake for Israel to give up the land to them. What president was pressuring Israel to do that?
> We should make General Knitanon the head of the IDF.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

SQM said:


> Can't help lovin' that Knitanon of mine. You so remind me of a KP member who was not only a great thinker but also a superb researcher if facts were ever needed here. So glad you are here. The void in my heart has been filled. And yes. Those are my exact sentiments. Biggest mistake for Israel to give up the land to them. What president was pressuring Israel to do that?
> We should make General Knitanon the head of the IDF.


I second that!

If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times. The land Israel gave back they did not STEAL. They acquired that land when THEY were unjustly invaded and the Palestinians abandoned the land for promises of a "better future" without the Jews. The Palestinians (who I know are lied to by Hamas) have proven that there is no negotiating, there is no peace, there is only lies and destruction. 
Whoever did suggest for Israel to give up their land (imagine if this president was successful in convincing Israel to give up ALL of the Golian heights?!), had another agenda and/or was vey naive. Wasn't it Clinton? Or was it much earlier than that? I forget. No one has done Israel any favors, Which gives me more admiration for what she has accomplished. She is considered a third world country by many, but in many ways leads the world in technology and medicine, especially biotechnology. They also came up with Aquaponics, which to me is the coolest thing ever and the way to end hunger and water waste.

Again, I know I am preaching to the choir, but I had to get that out.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Can't help lovin' that Knitanon of mine. You so remind me of a KP member who was not only a great thinker but also a superb researcher if facts were ever needed here. So glad you are here. The void in my heart has been filled. And yes. Those are my exact sentiments. Biggest mistake for Israel to give up the land to them. What president was pressuring Israel to do that?
> We should make General Knitanon the head of the IDF.


Then you'd have to knit her a tin-foil hat.

As for Israel giving Gaza over, I think that was 2005. Right in the middle of the reign of the Burning Bush.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Natureschampion said:


> I second that!
> 
> If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times. The land Israel gave back they did not STEAL. They acquired that land when THEY were unjustly invaded and the Palestinians abandoned the land for promises of a "better future" without the Jews. The Palestinians (who I know are lied to by Hamas) have proven that there is no negotiating, there is no peace, there is only lies and destruction.
> Whoever did suggest for Israel to give up their land (imagine if this president was successful in convincing Israel to give up ALL of the Golian heights?!), had another agenda and/or was vey naive. Wasn't it Clinton? Or was it much earlier than that? I forget. No one has done Israel any favors, Which gives me more admiration for what she has accomplished. She is considered a third world country by many, but in many ways leads the world in technology and medicine, especially biotechnology. They also came up with Aquaponics, which to me is the coolest thing ever and the way to end hunger and water waste.
> ...


They also came up with Krav Maga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga for those unfamiliar with it.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Actually, "fisher" is quite correct. The animal is the _secondary_ meaning.
> 
> From Merriam-Webster:
> 
> ...


Thank you. I never even THOUGHT of looking it up because I thought it had to be an invented word! I learned something new. Doesn't it sound weird?


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

cookiequeen said:


> Thank you. I never even THOUGHT of looking it up because I thought it had to be an invented word! I learned something new. Doesn't it sound weird?


Back in the "olden times", those who did not have the money to purchase a name and title were assigned family names by occupation. This is where we get last names such as "Miller", "Baker", and "Fisher".


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knitanon said:



> I am not sure what that means. I never watch Sunday morning commentary anymore because it is just so much propaganda in my opinion.
> Isn't truth the first casualty of war?
> We won't get a straight story regardless. I have to say that after listening to MSNBC for about 5 minutes this afternoon (can't get much more liberal than that, tho they are NOT news) I was convinced that if I had a call in what Israel should do I would suggest flattening all of Gaza.
> Give people a week to get out and bomb the heck out of it and start over.


As I said days ago, nice liberals and conservatives are truely not so far apart as demonstrated by your leaving MSNBC which is not PROGRESSIVE at all. As usual, the US does not have a moral high ground in this instance either.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

It does sound odd to our ears today, but most Christians should be familiar with it, as it is used in the Bible. As an atheist who has read the Bible, it stuck in my mind.

Matthew 4:18-19

18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. 

19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> They also came up with Krav Maga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga for those unfamiliar with it.


Ooh! I so want to Lear Krav Maga! It's such an amazing, all encompassing form of self defense. They move so fast and with such grace!


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

peacegoddess said:


> As I said days ago, nice liberals and conservatives are truely not so far apart as demonstrated by your leaving MSNBC which is not PROGRESSIVE at all. As usual, the US does not have a moral high ground in this instance either.


Yah, and Kerry is pleading with Israel to accept a ceasefire. To what end? The Palestinians have broken EVERY ceasefire that Israel has agreed to. Two quotes come to mind. 
"The definition of 'insanity' is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results." -Albert Einstein
"Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it." -Edmund Burke

Kerry would be singing a different tune if it were he and his who lived in the constant fear that Israelis do. If it were rockets flying at his home, place of work, and place of worship. If he had to worry every time he got on a bus that it would be blown up. If he couldn't send his kids to a pizza parlor or their preschool without fear of some nutcase blowing himself up. Fortunately, we don't have to live like this, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't understand where the Israelis are coming from. How long is the US going to ask them to keep up this insanity?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Natureschampion said:


> Yah, and Kerry is pleading with Israel to accept a ceasefire. To what end? The Palestinians have broken EVERY ceasefire that Israel has agreed to. Two quotes come to mind.
> "The definition of 'insanity' is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results." -Albert Einstein
> "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it." -Edmund Burke
> 
> Kerry would be singing a different tune if it were he and his who lived in the constant fear that Israelis do. If it were rockets flying at his home, place of work, and place of worship. If he had to worry every time he got on a bus that it would be blown up. If he couldn't send his kids to a pizza parlor or their preschool without fear of some nutcase blowing himself up. Fortunately, we don't have to live like this, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't understand where the Israelis are coming from. How long is the US going to ask them to keep up this insanity?


so tired of the Zionist line of "it is only about us".


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

peacegoddess said:


> so tired of the Zionist line of "it is only about us".


While I don't agree with everything the Israelis have done, they have recently only been protecting themselves. What is it about? The Israelis have agreed to peace and cease fires every few years for the past 78 years. Except the groan heights, they have given back a majority of the land they won in wars they did not want, some of which came after these "ceasefires." What, pray tell me, are they supposed to do? What attitude should they have in protecting themselves? I have not heard that line. I have heard the very far liberal left say they say those things, but have not actually heard that from an Israeli or a Zionist (except the hard core fundamentalist ones).


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

That's human nature, peacegoddess. If family members are at risk that is who people think of. 
Throwing stones just makes people dig their heels in and nothing is solved. Maybe nothing is solved ever, maybe the negative actions just bounce from place to place, from culture to culture and from individual to individual.



peacegoddess said:


> so tired of the Zionist line of "it is only about us".


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Deaths in current conflict in Israel: 36 Israelis, more than 800 in Gaza. According to the BBC, most of the Palestinian deaths have been civilians, while 34 of Israel's dead have been soldiers.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

A different perspective


SundayReview | Op-Ed Columnist |&#8203;&#8203;NYT Now 
Whos Right and Wrong in the Middle East?
JULY 19, 2014 
Nicholas Kristof 

This story is included with an NYT Opinion subscription.
www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/opinion/sunday/nicholas-kristof-whos-right-and-wrong-in-the-middle-east.html, targetedPage: www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/opinion, position: MiddleLeftWITH Israeli troops again invading Gaza and the death toll rising, some of the rhetoric from partisans on each side is oddly parallel. Maybe its time to correct a few common misconceptions among the salvos flying back and forth.
This is a struggle between good and evil, right and wrong. We cant relax, cant compromise, and we had no choice but to act.
On the contrary, this is a war in which both peoples have a considerable amount of right on their sides. The failure to acknowledge the humanity and legitimate interests of people on the other side has led to cross-demonization. That results in a series of military escalations that leave both peoples worse off.
Israelis are absolutely correct that they have a right not to be hit with rockets by Hamas, not to be kidnapped, not to be subjected to terrorist bombings. And Palestinians are absolutely right that they have a right to a state, a right to run businesses and import goods, a right to live in freedom rather than relegated to second-class citizenship in their own land.
Both sides have plenty of good people who just want the best for their children and their communities, and also plenty of myopic zealots who preach hatred. A starting point is to put away the good vs. evil narrative and recognize this as the aching story of two peoples  each with legitimate grievances  colliding with each other.
Just because the underlying conflict is between two peoples who each have plenty of right, thats not to say that there are no villains. Hamas is violent, not only toward Israel, but toward its own people, and, in contrast to Israel, it doesnt seem to try to minimize civilian casualties  its own or Israels. Hamas is not as corrupt as the Palestinian Authority, but it is far more repressive, and my impression from my visits to Gaza is that its also unpopular at home. Hamas sometimes seems to have more support on certain college campuses in America or Europe than within Gaza.
Meanwhile, the Israeli right undermines the best partner for peace Israel has had, President Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority, and Israels settlements are a gift to Palestinian extremism. These days, in both Gaza and Jerusalem, hawks are in charge, and they empower each other.
The other side understands only force. What else can we do but fight back when we are attacked?
Israeli leaders, starting with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, think that the way to protect their citizens is to invade Gaza and blow up tunnels  and, if Gazan civilians and children die, thats sad but inevitable. And some Gazans think that theyre already in an open-air prison, suffocating under the Israeli embargo, and the only way to achieve change is fire rockets  and if some Israeli children die, thats too bad, but 100 times as many Palestinian children are dying already.
In fact, weve seen this movie before: Israel responded to aggression by invading Lebanon in 1982 and 2006, and Gaza in 2008; each time, hawks cheered. Yet each invasion in retrospect accomplished at best temporary military gains while killing large numbers of innocents; they didnt solve any problems.
Continue reading the main story Continue reading the main story Continue reading the main story Likewise, Palestinian militancy has accomplished nothing but increasing the misery of the Palestinian people. If Palestinians instead turned more to huge Gandhi-style nonviolence resistance campaigns, the resulting videos would reverberate around the world and Palestine would achieve statehood and freedom.
Some Palestinians understand this and are trying this strategy, but too many define nonviolence to include rock-throwing. No, that doesnt cut it.
What would you do if your family were in Gaza/Israel, at risk of being killed. You wouldnt just sit back and sing Kumbaya, would you?
If any of us were in southern Israel, frightened sick by rockets being fired by Hamas, we, too, might cheer an invasion of Gaza. And if any of us were in Gaza, strangled by the embargo and losing relatives to Israeli airstrikes, we, too, might cheer the launch of rockets on Tel Aviv. Thats human nature.
Thats why we need to de-escalate, starting with a cease-fire that includes an end to Hamas rocket attacks and a withdrawal from Gaza by Israel. For Israel, this is a chance to use diplomacy to achieve what gunpowder wont: the marginalization of Hamas. Israel might suggest an internationally supervised election in Gaza with the promise that the return of control to the Palestinian Authority would mean an end to the economic embargo.
Here we have a conflict between right and right that has been hijacked by hard-liners on each side who feed each other. Its not that they are the same, and what I see isnt equivalence. Yet there is, in some ways, a painful symmetry  and one element is that each side vigorously denies that there is any symmetry at all.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Tell it to Hamas.... bunkers for Hamas leadership =9 
bunkers for general Palestinian population = 0

Can anyone tell me how it is determined that a person is a civilian in Gaza? The last I was aware Hamas had no uniform except when they are wearing IDF uniforms to terrorize Israelis.



sumpleby said:


> Deaths in current conflict in Israel: 36 Israelis, more than 800 in Gaza. According to the BBC, most of the Palestinian deaths have been civilians, while 34 of Israel's dead have been soldiers.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

sumpleby said:


> Deaths in current conflict in Israel: 36 Israelis, more than 800 in Gaza. According to the BBC, most of the Palestinian deaths have been civilians, while 34 of Israel's dead have been soldiers.


Well, if you hide your your weapons and put bases in heavily populated area, this is bound to happen. Those ratios are exactly what Hamas was going for. The Israelis aren't targeting civilians, but when the targets are purposely placed amongst civilians, what is Israel supposed to do?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Natureschampion said:


> Well, if you hide your your weapons and put bases in heavily populated area, this is bound to happen. Those ratios are exactly what Hamas was going for. The Israelis aren't targeting civilians, but when the targets are purposely placed amongst civilians, what is Israel supposed to do?


where is the "liberal" empathy for killed women and children? children of both sides deserve empathy from "liberals" who normally would have empathy if the children were living anywhere else other than Palestine.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

There is NOBODY who doesn't grieve for dead women and children. 
If they don't want Hamas to be in their neighborhoods and schools and mosques so that those places are targetted then they need to get them out of there. 
Hamas is storing weapons and creating systems of tunnels to use to attack Israel so that Israeli babies and women can die. 
They can't get to them with missiles so they go to the trenches, hide themselves in Israeli military outfits and try to kill the citizenry. 
What? Because Hamas is ineffectual Israel should just lay down their weapons? 
Hamas' demands are totally unreasonable for a group that is less and less meaningful. They are terrorists. Just as in Iraq they don't give a darn what happens to the populace. They want power.



peacegoddess said:


> where is the "liberal" empathy for killed women and children? children of both sides deserve empathy from "liberals" who normally would have empathy if the children were living anywhere else other than Palestine.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

peacegoddess said:


> A different perspective
> 
> SundayReview | Op-Ed Columnist |​​NYT Now
> Whos Right and Wrong in the Middle East?
> ...


But Israel gave back a majority of the land that they acquired in wars they were forced to fight in. They have given money and physical support to rebuild Palestinian infrastructure, start schools and fund hospitals. They allowed Palestinians to trade and they used this to smuggle weapons. Israel gave the Palestinians ambulances. They used these to smuggle weapons and bombs, not sick patients. Hamas and such do these things so the world says "look, Israel isn't letting ambulances through. How horrible!" Don't tell me that it's the "liberals" who are feeding this to me. I have had family in Israel for a long time. What about when the Palestinians bombed the Passover Seder a few years ago in the hotel? The pizza parlor? The preschools? The buses? When has Israel actually gone in to the Palestinian Territories unprovoked and started shooting or bombing? Of course they are bombing civilian areas, Hamas has placed things very strategically so that this will happen.

Every ceasefire Israel has agreed to has LITERALLY blown up in their faces. Are they not suposed to go on the offensive bc The Palestinians have a warped sense of the rules of engagement?

The Palestinians have taken everything handed to them and spit in Israel's face. All the world sees is what Hamas and other Palestinian extremist groups want them to see.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Knitanon said:


> There is NOBODY who doesn't grieve for dead women and children.
> If they don't want Hamas to be in their neighborhoods and schools and mosques so that those places are targetted then they need to get them out of there.
> Hamas is storing weapons and creating systems of tunnels to use to attack Israel so that Israeli babies and women can die.
> They can't get to them with missiles so they go to the trenches, hide themselves in Israeli military outfits and try to kill the citizenry.
> ...


I was going to respond, but you said it very well.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

The rest of the world has no perspective and is hoodwinked because they are not pro Israel?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> The rest of the world has no perspective and is hoodwinked because they are not pro Israel?


Israel and Jews know we have no friends. This is not new news. Nu?


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

I don't know where you got that from anything that has been said. 
I won't be responding anymore as it is getting to be much too insulting and personal.



peacegoddess said:


> The rest of the world has no perspective and is hoodwinked because they are not pro Israel?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knitanon said:


> I don't know where you got that from anything that has been said.
> I won't be responding anymore as it is getting to be much too insulting and personal.


Too personal? Insulting? Because I do not support your opinion?


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

peacegoddess said:


> The rest of the world has no perspective and is hoodwinked because they are not pro Israel?


No. They are bc they fail to see what Hamas is actually doing. Hamas int even trying to hide it. No fundamentalist Muslim has respect for human life, it is part of their credo. The "adults" sit on their cushions while they have the children on the font lines and the teenagers strapping bombs to themselves, promising their parents money and hope for their family.

The rest of the world fails to see this, and hat is why they are "hoodwinked."


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

peacegoddess said:


> Too personal? Insulting? Because I do not support your opinion?


It's not about supporting our opinion. You said that we have an "all about us" attitude, when Israel gives many charitable contributions outside of their country (though they have little and what they do have gets drained by defense), and Jews around the world account for most of the contributors. By asking that question, you implied that we think the world is somehow misled only due to the fact that they are not pro Israel, no other explanation. As if we are that self centered. I think each one of us deserves the benefit of the doubt. You seem to think that bc we are for Israel standing up for herself, we are against the Palestinian children and women (gee ladies, who does that sound like?), and not against tyranny and terrorism.

These things can be construed as insulting and personal.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Natureschampion said:


> It's not about supporting our opinion. You said that we have an "all about us" attitude, when Israel gives many charitable contributions outside of their country (though they have little and what they do have gets drained by defense), and Jews around the world account for most of the contributors. By asking that question, you implied that we think the world is somehow misled only due to the fact that they are not pro Israel, no other explanation. As if we are that self centered. I think each one of us deserves the benefit of the doubt. You seem to think that bc we are for Israel standing up for herself, we are against the Palestinian children and women (gee ladies, who does that sound like?), and not against tyranny and terrorism.
> 
> These things can be construed as insulting and personal.


The U S supports the Isreali military in the millions. Yep you sound that way. No mention of the suffering of the women and children of Palestine until you got called on it and the it is very tepid.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

It is hard for me to feel any sympathy for anyone who prefers me dead or wishes me ill because of the religion into which I have been born.

Tell me P.G. - how would you react if you were Jewish? (This will require roll playing on your part but I believe you can suspend disbelief for a moment.)


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> so tired of the Zionist line of "it is only about us".


Where exactly have you seen that "Zionist line"?

I find it interesting that someone adopting the name *peace*goddess should think it's okay for one group to throw rockets into the cities of another, but not okay for the other to fight back by doing the same thing. Do you also think it was okay for them to kidnap and murder 3 teenagers? (I grant you that what was done in retaliation to that poor Muslim teenager was horrible beyond belief. Only savages would have set a boy on fire. But that wouldn't have happened if the 3 hadn't been found dead.)

A government that does not protect its citizens does not deserve to exist. Israel at least protects its citizens. Hamas used its resources to build tunnels for arms smuggling rather than the hospitals and schools it promised voters, and it has done a very bad job of protecting its citizens.

I'm tired of hearing Israel badmouthed by people who have no idea of what it's like to live there.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Deaths in current conflict in Israel: 36 Israelis, more than 800 in Gaza. According to the BBC, most of the Palestinian deaths have been civilians, while 34 of Israel's dead have been soldiers.


Oh, then Israel would be more acceptable if more of its civilians died? Really? Do you understand what a strange idea that is. Israelis spend a good part of their day hiding in fallout shelters. Maybe the Gazans should do the same. Why not turn all those well-constructed tunnels into shelters and do something for the people for a change?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> where is the "liberal" empathy for killed women and children? children of both sides deserve empathy from "liberals" who normally would have empathy if the children were living anywhere else other than Palestine.


I think we all have "empathy" for the women and children; more than empathy, I think we grieve for them no matter which side of the line they're on. The Israeli government may appear heartless, but the Israeli people are concerned about the children in Gaza as well as those in Tel Aviv. But they can't stop protecting their own just because the leaders in Gaza have no desire to protect their own. It really seems as though they're trying to get more of their civilians killed to gain the sympathy of people like you.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> The rest of the world has no perspective and is hoodwinked because they are not pro Israel?


No, but a lot of people are hoodwinked because they _are_ pro-Hamas.

Did you even read that column you posted by Nicolas Krystof?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> The U S supports the Isreali military in the millions. Yep you sound that way. No mention of the suffering of the women and children of Palestine until you got called on it and the it is very tepid.


And you haven't once admitted that maybe life for the Israelis isn't all a bed of roses.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

peacegoddess said:


> The U S supports the Isreali military in the millions. Yep you sound that way. No mention of the suffering of the women and children of Palestine until you got called on it and the it is very tepid.


It would be redundant for me to state what I have already said, but whatever. What part of (capital for emphasis) ISRAEL HAS GIVEN SUPPORT FOR THE PALESTINIANS TO BUILD INFRASTRUCTURE, HOSPITALS AND SCHOOLS, GAVE THEM AMBULANCES (which are quite expensive) AND THE PALESTINIANS TURNED THE AMBULANCES INTO BOMBS don't you understand? How does Israel or I not care about the women and children? Is hone suposed to keep suffering on behalf of the women and children whose leaders are using them as a human shield, LITERALLY?! I bet you didn't know THIS little fact, but Israel has a HISTORY of taking PALESTINIAN civilian casualties when it is the PALESTINIAN LEADERS who are responsible for their plight. The PALESTINIAN LEADERS who should be caring about their own people are sending children out to get killed, putting weapons in schools, hospitals, etc. YOU are buying into the propaganda. My people have lived this.

Actually, by siding with Hamas (bc that's all you are doing. Palestinian civilians mostly know they will be better off without their so called "leaders"), YOU are disregarding the women and children, and don't forget the MEN who would rather not be sending their children to get killed. Isn't it sexist to disc life them?


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

SQM said:


> It is hard for me to feel any sympathy for anyone who prefers me dead or wishes me ill because of the religion into which I have been born.
> 
> Tell me P.G. - how would you react if you were Jewish? (This will require roll playing on your part but I believe you can suspend disbelief for a moment.)


To understand what it is to be Jewish, to truly know, one has to allow over 3000 years of strength over suffering, courage over fear, kindness over hostility, hard work, TRADITIOOOON! Tradition! (Sorry, had to;-)), enlightenment in darkness. They would have to know one of the most important lessons we have learned, and that is that those who hate are mostly hurting themselves (it is interesting that every civilization that has been cruel to the Jews have fallen HARD after being world powers), but that unfortunately hatred can be like a ripple on a lake; growing until there is a force great enough to stop it rather than get swept up with the waves. We have had to be that "force" more often than not.

Not many Gentiles have the strength of character or open mind to do this (much of the present company excluded). It is inherent in us. Maybe sometimes as American Jews we even take it for granted?

What people don't realize is that if Israel falls, America is next. What will she think about their women and children when the Arab nations have their nukes all trained on us?


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

SQM said:


> Israel and Jews know we have no friends. This is not new news. Nu?


And yet despite this, we have always been near or at the front of the line to lend a helping hand. Jordan, though not historically a friend to us, has benefited greatly in the money and resources Israel put in to research for ways to conserve and collect water, medicine, and ways to grow sustainable agriculture in the desert. But no, we don't think of ANYONE but ourselves...


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Natureschampion said:


> And yet despite this, we have always been near or at the front of the line to lend a helping hand. Jordan, though not historically a friend to us, has benefited greatly in the money and resources Israel put in to research for ways to conserve and collect water, medicine, and ways to grow sustainable agriculture in the desert. But no, we don't think of ANYONE but ourselves...


Plus Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem is treating Palestinian casualties. What is ironic about Peacegoddess is that her avatar is a hamsa - a traditional Israeli amulet. I wear one all the time. Ha Ha.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

SQM said:


> Plus Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem is treating Palestinian casualties. What is ironic about Peacegoddess is that her avatar is a hamsa - a traditional Israeli amulet. I wear one all the time. Ha Ha.


Ha Ha on me??????? Read below.
HamsaFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search 
HamsaThis article is about the amulet. For other uses, see Hamsa (disambiguation) and Khamsa (disambiguation).
The hamsa (Arabic: خمسة‎ khamsah, also romanized khamsa, meaning lit. "five") is a palm-shaped amulet popular throughout the Middle East and North Africa, and commonly used in jewelry and wall hangings.[1][2] Depicting the open right hand, an image recognized and used as a sign of protection in many societies throughout history, the hamsa is believed to provide defense against the evil eye. The symbol predates Judaism, Christianity and Islam.[citation needed] In Islam, it is also known as the hand of Fatima, so named to commemorate Muhammad's daughter Fatima Zahra (c. 605 or 615[3]  633). Levantine Christians call it the hand of Mary, for the Virgin Mary. Jews refer to it as the hand of Miriam in remembrance of the biblical Miriam, sister of Moses and Aaron.

In Islam, the hamsa is called the Hand of Fatima, in honor of one of the daughters of the Prophet Mohammed. Some say that in Islamic tradition the five fingers represent the Five Pillars of Islam In Ottoman Turkish this sign is called: 'pence-i al-i aba', with 'pence' meaning 'hand' or 'five', referring to the household of the Islamic prophet Muhammed. The household of Muhammed is enumerated as those five people over whom the prophet held a cloth; they are:


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Natureschampion said:


> To understand what it is to be Jewish, to truly know, one has to allow over 3000 years of strength over suffering, courage over fear, kindness over hostility, hard work, TRADITIOOOON! Tradition! (Sorry, had to;-)), enlightenment in darkness. They would have to know one of the most important lessons we have learned, and that is that those who hate are mostly hurting themselves (it is interesting that every civilization that has been cruel to the Jews have fallen HARD after being world powers), but that unfortunately hatred can be like a ripple on a lake; growing until there is a force great enough to stop it rather than get swept up with the waves. We have had to be that "force" more often than not.
> 
> Not many Gentiles have the strength of character or open mind to do this (much of the present company excluded). It is inherent in us. Maybe sometimes as American Jews we even take it for granted?
> 
> What people don't realize is that if Israel falls, America is next. What will she think about their women and children when the Arab nations have their nukes all trained on us?


Why the assumption I am a Gentile, I am a Jewish woman for the liberation of Palestine and and end to the hostilities. I do not believe Israel is the buffer for the U S.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Natureschampion said:


> It would be redundant for me to state what I have already said, but whatever. What part of (capital for emphasis) ISRAEL HAS GIVEN SUPPORT FOR THE PALESTINIANS TO BUILD INFRASTRUCTURE, HOSPITALS AND SCHOOLS, GAVE THEM AMBULANCES (which are quite expensive) AND THE PALESTINIANS TURNED THE AMBULANCES INTO BOMBS don't you understand? How does Israel or I not care about the women and children? Is hone suposed to keep suffering on behalf of the women and children whose leaders are using them as a human shield, LITERALLY?! I bet you didn't know THIS little fact, but Israel has a HISTORY of taking PALESTINIAN civilian casualties when it is the PALESTINIAN LEADERS who are responsible for their plight. The PALESTINIAN LEADERS who should be caring about their own people are sending children out to get killed, putting weapons in schools, hospitals, etc. YOU are buying into the propaganda. My people have lived this.
> 
> Actually, by siding with Hamas (bc that's all you are doing. Palestinian civilians mostly know they will be better off without their so called "leaders"), YOU are disregarding the women and children, and don't forget the MEN who would rather not be sending their children to get killed. Isn't it sexist to disc life them?


Believing in the need for the end of hostilities and a real peace process is not siding with Hamas, it is siding with PEACE and the need for arrogance on both sides to end.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> Why the assumption I am a Gentile, I am a Jewish woman for the liberation of Palestine and and end to the hostilities. I do not believe Israel is the buffer for the U S.


Nu???? Who knew that our PeaceGoddess is Jewish.

No new info about my hamsa. But I have only seen Jewish women wearing them.

Now I need to ask a question since you are a lansman. What do you imagine would happen to Jews globally if Israel is destroyed?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> No, but a lot of people are hoodwinked because they _are_ pro-Hamas.
> 
> Did you even read that column you posted by Nicolas Krystof?


He presented a balanced opinion which is what I am tring to get across, but you and others here want to make it an all all or all them issue and there is blame on both sides.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

SQM said:


> Nu???? Who knew that our PeaceGoddess is Jewish.
> 
> No new info about my hamsa. But I have only seen Jewish women wearing them.
> 
> Now I need to ask a question since you are a lansman. What do you imagine would happen to Jews globally if Israel is destroyed?


Then perhaps you might want to go outside your mileu a bit more.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> Then perhaps you might want to go outside your mileu a bit more.


This is not an answer to my question.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

SQM said:


> This is not an answer to my question.


I do not believe Israel would be destroyed if there were a end to the hositilities....and yes you may think I am naive. I do not believe that the average Palestinean wants the deaath of all Jews.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> I do not believe Israel would be destroyed if there were a end to the hositilities....and yes you may think I am naive. I do not believe that the average Palestinean wants the deaath of all Jews.


of course the average Palestinian does not want trouble. But their leaders certainly have a clear message on their desire to destroy Israel. As my father of blessed memory used to say - If the Arabs were not busy killing Jews they would be killing each other.

There is a glitch in their minds.

Again you did not answer my original question.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Ha Ha on me??????? Read below.
> HamsaFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Good thing you don't have to admit there's anything about Israel that might have a positive connection.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Why the assumption I am a Gentile, I am a Jewish woman for the liberation of Palestine and and end to the hostilities. I do not believe Israel is the buffer for the U S.


Do you believe that the destruction of Israel will accomplish this end? That's the most probable consequence of allowing Hamas free rein to hidden tunnels and stores of weapons while Israel is expected to sit on its hands (or hamsas).


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> He presented a balanced opinion which is what I am tring to get across, but you and others here want to make it an all all or all them issue and there is blame on both sides.


You're entirely wrong. Your bias makes you incapable of reading what you don't want to read. I was struck by that column the first time I read it, a few days ago in the NYTimes, and I reread it. Krystof doesn't put the entire onus on Israel, as you seem to, nor does he think Israel hasn't had enough children killed.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

peacegoddess said:


> I do not believe Israel would be destroyed if there were a end to the hositilities....and yes you may think I am naive. I do not believe that the average Palestinean wants the deaath of all Jews.


I KNOW the average Palestinian does not want the death of all Jews. Like the Israelis, a majority of them want to live in peace, be able to feed and educate their children, have the security to be able to walk down the street with no worries. There are actually more Palestinian Americans (living under American protection) that would rather see Israel not exist than there are Palestinians living there who believe so.

That is not what makes you naive. What makes you naive is believing that the end to the hostilities would not destroy Israel. Hamas along with other fundamentalist Muslim groups have stated very clearly that they WILL NOT STOP until Israel and the Jews have been destroyed. It is beyond naive bc they have stated this over and over, and sometimes they have thrown America into that equation. So, as an American Jew, you should be afraid. Be very, very afraid.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

peacegoddess said:


> He presented a balanced opinion which is what I am tring to get across, but you and others here want to make it an all all or all them issue and there is blame on both sides.





peacegoddess said:


> Believing in the need for the end of hostilities and a real peace process is not siding with Hamas, it is siding with PEACE and the need for arrogance on both sides to end.


Waaaait a minute. When did Israel ever kidnap Palestinian children, kill them, and leave them in the desert? When did they hide weapons in schools in order to draw fire to civilians? When did they go into a place of worship or holiday festival and detonate bombs? When have they ever gone to pizza parlors, buses, or preschools for the intense purpose of killing innocent people?

Never. Hamas has done all these things and more. There will never be peace as long as the world tell Israel that they just have to "bend over and take it" in the interest of peace. Hamas doesn't speak that language, and they don't wish to learn.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

peacegoddess said:


> Why the assumption I am a Gentile, I am a Jewish woman for the liberation of Palestine and and end to the hostilities. I do not believe Israel is the buffer for the U S.


Then you are beyond ignorant bc Fundamentalist Muslim groups have made it very clear that they would (and don't forget HAVE) come after America, partly bc of how "nice" she is to the Jews.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

peacegoddess said:


> Why the assumption I am a Gentile, I am a Jewish woman for the liberation of Palestine and and end to the hostilities. I do not believe Israel is the buffer for the U S.


Bc of how ignorant you are to the situation and your willingness to assign as much "blame" on Israel as Hamas. Because you seem to care more about the Palestinian women and children than your own.

Let me guess, you were one of "those" Jews who thought that Israel should have given up the Golan Heights in the interest of "peace."

Whether you believe it to be so or not, it is true and Hamas and the other terrorists have made to pretense to hide their disdain for America.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

:XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:

I love Joan Rivers. General knitanon, you should make HER your second in command.

http://www.tmz.com/2014/07/25/joan-rivers-israel-gaza-palestine-rant-video/


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Not likely, I think she is a pig.



Natureschampion said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:
> 
> I love Joan Rivers. General knitanon, you should make HER your second in command.
> 
> http://www.tmz.com/2014/07/25/joan-rivers-israel-gaza-palestine-rant-video/


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Knitanon said:


> Not likely, I think she is a pig.


I get a kick out of her. I've never followed her career but the few interviews I have heard/seen leave me laughing.

Well, since you will be general of the IDF, you choose your second. Just know I am willing to throw my hat in the ring!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitanon said:


> Not likely, I think she is a pig.


That's the best description of Joan Rivers I've ever seen.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> Do you believe that the destruction of Israel will accomplish this end? That's the most probable consequence of allowing Hamas free rein to hidden tunnels and stores of weapons while Israel is expected to sit on its hands (or hamsas).


It's not just likely or probable. Hamas has said that they are bent of the destruction of Israel and the Jews. It is an inevitability if Hamas were allowed free reign.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Natureschampion said:


> It's not just likely or probable. Hamas has said that they are bent of the destruction of Israel and the Jews. It is an inevitability if Hamas were allowed free reign.


You're probably right. Not something I like to think of as inevitable.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> You're probably right. Not something I like to think of as inevitable.


Me either.

6 years ago (or whenever it was that it was last this bad), I was one of the Jews who did believe that Israel should " be the bigger person" and try to live amicably with the Palestinians. Now I say "enough is enough." There is no possibility of peace as long as a) Israel's enemies are living in "islands" of territories within her borders (what WAS the UN thinking?!), and b) as long as there are fundamentalist Muslims bent on her destruction living so close by.

I ask, "when does it end?" While Israel is not innocent of everything, they have never been the first to lob mix ilex. They do not terrorize civilians by actually going into their place of business, worship, or entertainment he'll bent on destruction. They have given aid to the Palestinians and their leaders use this money to buy weapons and pay for tunnels to be built, though I doubt this money is going to labor. They are LITERALLY stealing food out of their childrens' mouths. We have warned the civilians when we are coming, even though is is detrimental to strategy. They don't give us the same courtesy. The world forgets this. They only see what Israel is doing wrong, not what they are doing right. They fail to see the atrocities that Hamas inflicts on it's own people. They have no regard for their own people's lives. Why do people think they will honor a ceasefire if they never have before and have such disdain for any life besides their own?

I know I don't have to remind you, but I wish to remind everyone that it was these militant Muslim groups who attacked us 13 years ago. It was these SAME Palestinians who were celebrating in the streets and burning American flags when this happened.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Had to post this - especially for Our Lansman - PG.






http://nation.foxnews.com/2014/07/24/howard-stern-delivers-epic-defense-israel-if-youre-anti-israel-then-youre-anti-america


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitanon said:


> Not likely, I think she is a pig.


me too, I can't stand her.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Had to post this - especially for Our Lansman - PG.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bill Maher, okay. But Howard Stern and Fox News? Really?


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> Bill Maher, okay. But Howard Stern and Fox News? Really?


Did you listen to it? Regardless of the media outlet, that's Howard Stern. He said nothing that we haven't said here (except pointing out the irrationality behind the Palestinians being angry with the Israelis for their plight and not their own leaders.), only people actually listen to him.

I used to not like him. I thought he was crass, crude, and disrespectful to women. That was before I really listened to him. He is actually the best interviewer I have ever heard. He knows how to get information out of people. He has had very interesting interviews with Billy Joel, Ron Howard, Larry King, Bryan Wilson, and others. He is also much more progressive than you think. He interviews porn stars and nude models, yes. But he speaks to them as equals and commends them for doing what they enjoy doing. He puts sex out in the open, rather than in the closet like the rest of the country. He is crass and crude at times. He is a shock jock after all. But he has very interesting ideas and is very intelligent and enlightened. He stands up for what he believes in and does his research. HE does most of his research. When he's not at the studio often times he is still working. He respects women greatly, as shown by his admiration for his wife and the support of the things she does (she is an avid animal rights enthusiast.).

There are sometimes when dh is listening that I have to tune Howard out, but for the most part I enjoy what he has to say.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

One of those times we have to agree to disagree, I guess, there are plenty of intelligent people out there who don't have to demean women and act like adolescents to get their message heard. 


Natureschampion said:


> Did you listen to it? Regardless of the media outlet, that's Howard Stern. He said nothing that we haven't said here (except pointing out the irrationality behind the Palestinians being angry with the Israelis for their plight and not their own leaders.), only people actually listen to him.
> 
> I used to not like him. I thought he was crass, crude, and disrespectful to women. That was before I really listened to him. He is actually the best interviewer I have ever heard. He knows how to get information out of people. He has had very interesting interviews with Billy Joel, Ron Howard, Larry King, Bryan Wilson, and others. He is also much more progressive than you think. He interviews porn stars and nude models, yes. But he speaks to them as equals and commends them for doing what they enjoy doing. He puts sex out in the open, rather than in the closet like the rest of the country. He is crass and crude at times. He is a shock jock after all. But he has very interesting ideas and is very intelligent and enlightened. He stands up for what he believes in and does his research. HE does most of his research. When he's not at the studio often times he is still working. He respects women greatly, as shown by his admiration for his wife and the support of the things she does (she is an avid animal rights enthusiast.).
> 
> There are sometimes when dh is listening that I have to tune Howard out, but for the most part I enjoy what he has to say.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Bill Maher, okay. But Howard Stern and Fox News? Really?


How many other Jewish celebrities are saying anything about Israel currently?

CNN and MSNBC are spewing pro-Palestinian stuff. Bravo to Stern.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Giving both sides coverage time does not show favoritism. That is what news is, there are two sides, if not more, to every story. Both are getting whacked for being pro-Israeli in the news. 
Guess it all depends on your perspective.



SQM said:


> How many other Jewish celebrities are saying anything about Israel currently?
> 
> CNN and MSNBC are spewing pro-Palestinian stuff. Bravo to Stern.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> me too, I can't stand her.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> Giving both sides coverage time does not show favoritism. That is what news is, there are two sides, if not more, to every story. Both are getting whacked for being pro-Israeli in the news.
> Guess it all depends on your perspective.


Tell me where on the media I can hear pro-Israel news. Who is being whacked? It is all anti-Israel news.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Knitanon said:


> One of those times we have to agree to disagree, I guess, there are plenty of intelligent people out there who don't have to demean women and act like adolescents to get their message heard.


Yes we can agree to disagree. I'm sure I don't have a taste for some things/people that you do as well.

However, I have to say that I don't feel like he demeans women. I think he gives a certain group/profession of women a voice that would not normally be heard. Many times he asks them intelligent questions. Of course he has to ask questions about their jobs, that's HIS job. But I think that when he converses with them, he does so with the utmost of respect. He has said very often that he couldn't do it.

I agree that he can be very childish; beyond adolescent. I don't think he is always or even mostly like that. On the few occasions i have heard him seriously immature (some of what he does is for effect. That is also his job), it was about arbitrary things that wouldn't have demanded respect one way or the other. He gets very heated about his beliefs and is a very loyal person. I am the same way. His heart is in the right place as far as I can tell.

I have been following him for six years now and I used to think the same thing as you. It did take a few weeks or so, but when I heard what the guests and he were saying, I changed my opinion. Maybe you have heard things that I haven't. That is a distinct possibility as he has been on the air for over 30 years now. They play reruns when he's not there (which is more now but the man is a workaholic, he used to take only a couple weeks off a year, though he recently cut back on the amount of shows he does), there's no way they could have played every episode of his career in the short time I've been paying attention. Plus, I listen to him less lately.

Have you ever heard of Tom Leikis? Now THAT man should have been confined for his abuse of women. "All women are money grubbing whores. If they are not, they are ugly and ugly women aren't worth anyone's time." He would say this and things like this all the time. I have heard worse, but it doesn't bare repeating. I have never heard such things from Howard, unless he is specifically talking about a woman who is like that. He doesn't give respect to the individual people who don't deserve it, like the women who think it is ok to use their young children as psychological pawns in a dangerous game they play with their husbands; the ones who think it is ok to leave their kids at a motel while they go score drugs. He points out the deadbeat dads, too. And the men who truly do disrespect women.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

SQM said:


> Tell me where on the media I can hear pro-Israel news. Who is being whacked? It is all anti-Israel news.


That's all I've seen/heard. There might have been a couple "but..." Devils advocate statements, but beyond that I have only witnessed anti-Israel sentiment from the actual media.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

SQM said:


> Tell me where on the media I can hear pro-Israel news. Who is being whacked? It is all anti-Israel news.


News is not supposed to be proIsraeli or proHamas ( I don't want to say Palestinian as they seem to be left out of the equation for except for the sympathy) 
All we can do is sift through, and evaluate, it is like any other news. Some truth, some error, some BS, some propaganda... put on your waders and take a dip with the dips.
Remember not so long ago we had that discussion about what the NYT leadership did to sell out the Jews in WWII and then they trailed along after Bush taking the easy route in the build up to the Iraq invasion. 
I don't know how to discern what is real and what isn't ALL the time, if it doesn't smell right I I don't consume it. <shrug>


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> News is not supposed to be proIsraeli or proHamas ( I don't want to say Palestinian as they seem to be left out of the equation for except for the sympathy)
> All we can do is sift through, and evaluate, it is like any other news. Some truth, some error, some BS, some propaganda... put on your waders and take a dip with the dips.


I have been listening carefully and I am only hearing anti-Israel sentiments except on Fox.

I hesitate to admit but I did listen to Cruz and he read my mind with his comments about the no plane flying to Israel situation. He called it punishment to get Israel to acquiesce to Kerry. Exactly.

Cruz is now an enigma for me. All news commentators claim he is a buffoon but I am going to listen to him for a bit. I know he was a brilliant student but I have dismissed him outright for his tea party "chazeria". What is he, asks SQM with the enquiring mind?


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

I think that if you read NC's last post on WOW and think about where Ted Cruz comes from (family not nation) you will understand his position. 
Just a guess, of course.



SQM said:


> I have been listening carefully and I am only hearing anti-Israel sentiments except on Fox.
> 
> I hesitate to admit but I did listen to Cruz and he read my mind with his comments about the no plane flying to Israel situation. He called it punishment to get Israel to acquiesce to Kerry. Exactly.
> 
> Cruz is now an enigma for me. All news commentators claim he is a buffoon but I am going to listen to him for a bit. I know he was a brilliant student but I have dismissed him outright for his tea party "chazeria". What is he, asks SQM with the enquiring mind?


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Knitanon said:


> News is not supposed to be proIsraeli or proHamas ( I don't want to say Palestinian as they seem to be left out of the equation for except for the sympathy)
> All we can do is sift through, and evaluate, it is like any other news. Some truth, some error, some BS, some propaganda... put on your waders and take a dip with the dips.
> Remember not so long ago we had that discussion about what the NYT leadership did to sell out the Jews in WWII and then they trailed along after Bush taking the easy route in the build up to the Iraq invasion.
> I don't know how to discern what is real and what isn't ALL the time, if it doesn't smell right I I don't consume it. <shrug>


It's not supposed to be, but it is. They play on the public's soft spot for the "underdog." They are making the Palestinian victims Israel's responsibility and do not tell the TRUTH of why the Palestinians are living this way; and that is bc Hamas has taken money meant to feed, educate, and build infrastructure, to buy weapons and build tunnels to Israel for the intense purpose of annihilation. They neglect to inform you that Israel gave some of these "misallocated" funds, helped rebuild, and donated ambulances that were then turned on them as bombs. They show you the numbers of casualties saying "it's so horrible!" But (forgot?) to tell you that the targets are bing hid in civilian areas (on purpose) and that Israel is WARNING Palestinians when they are going to attack! As far as I know, according to the "rules of engagement," a party doesn't have to warn the opposition when they are going to attack. Kinda defeats the whole "element of surprise." They point out Israel's flaws, which she does have them, and leaves out their generosity.

When they are blatantly disregarding the truth, the media is playing favorites and being "pro" one side, which in this case happens to be on the side of the Palestinians/Hamas. This is dangerous bc people believe what they hear and won't seek any other knowledge.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Knitanon said:


> I think that if you read NC's last post on WOW and think about where Ted Cruz comese from you will understand his position.
> Just a guess, of course.


Excuse me, but what is that supposed to mean?


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Natureschampion said:


> Excuse me, but what is that supposed to mean?


Natureschampion wrote:
You seem to think the antisemitism only goes back as far as the state of Israel and democrats. There were political parties as far back as the founding of this nation and antisemitism predates even that. There have been countless cases of "good Christians" not allowing Jews into eating and resting establishments, wouldn't rent to them, Jews couldn't even go to some colleges.

I have known many a "true Christian" who are, in fact, very antisemitic. I don't know who PP is talking about and will reserve judgement until I hear such nonsense, but I have gotten it my whole lifeAnd "true Christians", Jehovah Witnesses, and anyone else who believes that Armageddon comes with the plight of the Jews are for the destruction of Israel, essentially. You want the Jews there and in power bc your book says that your "messiah" will only come when they are there and destroyed. We don't believe in this and would rather not be swept up in that deranged logic. I appreciate that you believe we are entitled to the land by G-d and other sentiments regarding Israel, but if you are one of these "true Christians" who believes the part about Armageddon and the desolation of the Jews, it is hypocritical.

Antizionism is mainly a liberal concept in my experience. Antizionism is antisemitism, but antisemitism is not antizionism. Kinda like how pinkies on the foot are toes, but toes are not pinkies. Btw, can "true Christians" not be democrat?


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Knitanon said:


> Natureschampion wrote:
> You seem to think the antisemitism only goes back as far as the state of Israel and democrats. There were political parties as far back as the founding of this nation and antisemitism predates even that. There have been countless cases of "good Christians" not allowing Jews into eating and resting establishments, wouldn't rent to them, Jews couldn't even go to some colleges.
> 
> I have known many a "true Christian" who are, in fact, very antisemitic. I don't know who PP is talking about and will reserve judgement until I hear such nonsense, but I have gotten it my whole lifeAnd "true Christians", Jehovah Witnesses, and anyone else who believes that Armageddon comes with the plight of the Jews are for the destruction of Israel, essentially. You want the Jews there and in power bc your book says that your "messiah" will only come when they are there and destroyed. We don't believe in this and would rather not be swept up in that deranged logic. I appreciate that you believe we are entitled to the land by G-d and other sentiments regarding Israel, but if you are one of these "true Christians" who believes the part about Armageddon and the desolation of the Jews, it is hypocritical.
> ...


I know what I wrote. I don't know what you meant by "think about where Ted Cruz comese from you will understand his position. 
Just a guess, of course." I am unfamiliar with Ted Cruz and don't have the time to research him. I just got a hint of, I don't know, something unpleasant, from that comment. It could just be me being a little defensive, of course.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

I think that you are being more than a little defensive.

Ted Cruz' father is this guy ...
http://time.com/110436/ted-cruzs-father-the-bible-tells-you-exactly-who-to-vote-for/
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/10/ted-cruz-rafael-father-video-christian-tea-party
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/11/07/the-six-craziest-quotes-from-ted-cruz-s-father-rafael-cruz.html
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/lauretta-brown/rev-rafael-cruz-there-attack-christianity-america
http://m.christianpost.com/news/pastor-rafael-cruz-religion-and-politics-interrelated-us-comparable-to-ancient-israel-120235/



Natureschampion said:


> I know what I wrote. I don't know what you meant by "think about where Ted Cruz comese from you will understand his position.
> Just a guess, of course." I am unfamiliar with Ted Cruz and don't have the time to research him. I just got a hint of, I don't know, something unpleasant, from that comment. It could just be me being a little defensive, of course.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Knitanon said:


> I think that you are being more than a little defensive.
> 
> Ted Cruz' father is this guy ...
> http://time.com/110436/ted-cruzs-father-the-bible-tells-you-exactly-who-to-vote-for/
> ...


Yes, you are right. Thank you for clarifying, I appreciate it.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitanon said:


> Natureschampion wrote:
> You seem to think the antisemitism only goes back as far as the state of Israel and democrats. There were political parties as far back as the founding of this nation and antisemitism predates even that. There have been countless cases of "good Christians" not allowing Jews into eating and resting establishments, wouldn't rent to them, Jews couldn't even go to some colleges.
> 
> I have known many a "true Christian" who are, in fact, very antisemitic. I don't know who PP is talking about and will reserve judgement until I hear such nonsense, but I have gotten it my whole lifeAnd "true Christians", Jehovah Witnesses, and anyone else who believes that Armageddon comes with the plight of the Jews are for the destruction of Israel, essentially. You want the Jews there and in power bc your book says that your "messiah" will only come when they are there and destroyed. We don't believe in this and would rather not be swept up in that deranged logic. I appreciate that you believe we are entitled to the land by G-d and other sentiments regarding Israel, but if you are one of these "true Christians" who believes the part about Armageddon and the desolation of the Jews, it is hypocritical.
> ...


Love that last "BTW." I've always felt that a "true Christian" would be a Democrat if we're talking about the two main parties. After all, Jesus was a socialist. I think repub "true Christians" always have to rationalize to be able to be repub. I was told that Jesus said we should take care of the poor but that he didn't say the GOVERNMENT should do it. He meant we as individuals and churches should take care of the poor. If that isn't an excuse, I don't know what is.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> I have been listening carefully and I am only hearing anti-Israel sentiments except on Fox.
> 
> I hesitate to admit but I did listen to Cruz and he read my mind with his comments about the no plane flying to Israel situation. He called it punishment to get Israel to acquiesce to Kerry. Exactly.
> 
> Cruz is now an enigma for me. All news commentators claim he is a buffoon but I am going to listen to him for a bit. I know he was a brilliant student but I have dismissed him outright for his tea party "chazeria". What is he, asks SQM with the enquiring mind?


---------------
I don't agree -- Our Airlines didn't fly in either. It is pretty understandable after what happened last week, and also the fact that a missile landed close to the Tel Aviv Airport. My daughter and dil are both Flight attendants . I am glad that our Government suggested they wait. Hamas is quite capable of deliberately shooting down a plane in Tel Aviv. After what happened in Europe, I believe it was a good decision.

You are willing to listen to Ted Cruz? come on! There is no one more pro Israel than I am. I don't however like to hear of children killed on either side. I don't see Hamas ever letting go of the Strangle hold on Gaza.

I understand that Israel has to defend herself and I understand why she attacks. It is a matter of survival. But let's be real. As long as Hamas is in Charge they will be 
attacking Israel, and Israel will have to do what has to be done.

I wouldn't trust Ted Cruz with a l0 ft. pole. so we will have to agree to disagree. He is an arrogant jerk and I don't think he makes a statement without it benefiting his hopes for the Presidency.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Love that last "BTW." I've always felt that a "true Christian" would be a Democrat if we're talking about the two main parties. After all, Jesus was a socialist. I think repub "true Christians" always have to rationalize to be able to be repub. I was told that Jesus said we should take care of the poor but that he didn't say the GOVERNMENT should do it. He meant we as individuals and churches should take care of the poor. If that isn't an excuse, I don't know what is.


YEAH!!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> I have been listening carefully and I am only hearing anti-Israel sentiments except on Fox.
> 
> I hesitate to admit but I did listen to Cruz and he read my mind with his comments about the no plane flying to Israel situation. He called it punishment to get Israel to acquiesce to Kerry. Exactly.
> 
> Cruz is now an enigma for me. All news commentators claim he is a buffoon but I am going to listen to him for a bit. I know he was a brilliant student but I have dismissed him outright for his tea party "chazeria". What is he, asks SQM with the enquiring mind?


Cruz isn't too enigma-ish as far as I'm concerned. He's a jerk. Slothy, cleanse the toxins from your brain this instant!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> ---------------
> I don't agree -- Our Airlines didn't fly in either. It is pretty understandable after what happened last week, and also the fact that a missile landed close to the Tel Aviv Airport. My daughter and dil are both Flight attendants . I am glad that our Government suggested they wait. Hamas is quite capable of deliberately shooting down a plane in Tel Aviv. After what happened in Europe, I believe it was a good decision.
> 
> You are willing to listen to Ted Cruz? come on! There is no one more pro Israel than I am. I don't however like to hear of children killed on either side. I don't see Hamas ever letting go of the Strangle hold on Gaza.
> ...


Just read this after I wrote my thoughts on Cruz! We agree down to the same word!


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

cookiequeen said:


> Love that last "BTW." I've always felt that a "true Christian" would be a Democrat if we're talking about the two main parties. After all, Jesus was a socialist. I think repub "true Christians" always have to rationalize to be able to be repub. I was told that Jesus said we should take care of the poor but that he didn't say the GOVERNMENT should do it. He meant we as individuals and churches should take care of the poor. If that isn't an excuse, I don't know what is.


I completely agree. But when the government takes everything from those who would contribute so we can hardly feed ourselves, who is left? Just a thought. They call themselves "true Christians" bc they selfishly misinterpret Jesus' teachings. If anything, ?Jesus was a socialist hippie bc he valued peace above almost everything else. Isn't that what he died for, kinda? That's what I took from it. They use "true Christianity" as an self righteous excuse to treat people however THEY think "heathens" should be treated. Jesus was about love for all mankind. And let's not forget, Jesus WAS a Jew!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Hi, NatureChild. Is it hot in your part of Cali, too?


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Natureschampion said:


> Well, if you hide your your weapons and put bases in heavily populated area, this is bound to happen. Those ratios are exactly what Hamas was going for. The Israelis aren't targeting civilians, but when the targets are purposely placed amongst civilians, what is Israel supposed to do?


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> I don't know where you got that from anything that has been said.
> I won't be responding anymore as it is getting to be much too insulting and personal.


Don't pay any attn to the PG troll.


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## ute4kp (Nov 6, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> Cruz isn't too enigma-ish as far as I'm concerned. He's a jerk. Slothy, cleanse the toxins from your brain this instant!


I can't stand the sight of his sneering face. Ugh.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

cookiequeen said:


> Hi, NatureChild. Is it hot in your part of Cali, too?


It has been very, very hot. Today wasn't quite as bad as we could actually sit in the shade. What about you? Could you go outside AT ALL?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> Just read this after I wrote my thoughts on Cruz! We agree down to the same word!


Why weren't planes stopped from flying over the Ukraine? Someone there knocked out a flight - didn't happen in Israel.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

ute4kp said:


> Don't pay any attn to the PG troll.


PeaceGoddess and I generally agree on lots, I know that I have put myself in positions where I haven't had much wiggle room to explain a position thoroughly without feeling vulnerable at the flank.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

SQM said:


> Why weren't planes stopped from flying over the Ukraine? Someone there knocked out a flight - didn't happen in Israel.


It isn't simply about a route apparently, SQM, it is about altitude. 
That cannot very well be a factor for landing. Crimea is closed to air traffic, it seems. 
A missile was a mile away from Ben Gurion, Americans are the greatest number of summer visitors to Israel. Do you really want a plane full of Americans shot down? American Jews in greater percentage than any other group?

http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/ukraine-responsible-for-airspace-safety-iata-20140720-zuzmp.html


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> It isn't simply about a route apparently, SQM, it is about altitude.
> That cannot very well be a factor for landing. Crimea is closed to air traffic, it seems.
> A missile was a mile away from Ben Gurion, Americans are the greatest number of summer visitors to Israel. Do you really want a plane full of Americans shot down? American Jews in greater percentage than any other group?
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/ukraine-responsible-for-airspace-safety-iata-20140720-zuzmp.html


After 36 hours the no-flight was canceled to Israel. Yet the missiles were still going full force. Very regretfully and much to my own alarm, I am sticking with Cruz on this one.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

You have REALLY lousy taste in men. :wink:



SQM said:


> After 36 hours the no-flight was canceled to Israel. Yet the missiles were still going full force. Very regretfully and much to my own alarm, I am sticking with Cruz on this one.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

So because that straw man position about Ukrainian air space was shown to be false you just drop it and go somewhere else?
Without reason and logic a discussion is impossible. While I understand the emotions, letting emotions drive all thought makes communication impossible.



SQM said:


> After 36 hours the no-flight was canceled to Israel. Yet the missiles were still going full force. Very regretfully and much to my own alarm, I am sticking with Cruz on this one.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> So because that straw man position about Ukrainian air space was shown to be false you just drop it and go somewhere else?
> Without reason and logic a discussion is impossible. While I understand the emotions, letting emotions drive all thought makes communication impossible.


My position is totally logical. A plane was shot down over the Ukraine and no stopping of International flights. That area is equally as dangerous as Israel yet Israel gets isolated for 36 hours. Ukraine does not have an Iron Dome. Israel does. El Al was still flying during the no-flight time and I did not hear of any trouble, likewise Bloomberg flew to Israel to prove this point. Cruz-Think for me on this score.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> My position is totally logical. A plane was shot down over the Ukraine and no stopping of International flights. That area is equally as dangerous as Israel yet Israel gets isolated for 36 hours. Ukraine does not have an Iron Dome. Israel does. El Al was still flying during the no-flight time and I did not hear of any trouble, likewise Bloomberg flew to Israel to prove this point. Cruz-Think for me on this score.


There is no trouble until some terrorist decides to shoot one out of the skies. Then would you still feel that way. Personally I would rather avoid it - Hamas is quite capable of choosing to make a bigger name for itself and also Kill a few Jews - especially North American Jews while they are at it. You are leaving it up to them to make that decision.

Guess it is a difference of opinion. Being careful or taking a chance. no one but Hamas leaders would know whether they will shoot a missile at a plane. Too soon after the other one.

Did you read the links given showing his Father's words?

You say no stopping of international flights-in the Ukraine- there was room to fly around that area- this is being done by Canada and I am sure most other International flights. They are not in a narrow corridor with no other way to go.

in Gaza and Israel they are in a narrow corridor easily accessible. Better to be safe - especially if you are on the plane.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

SQM said:


> My position is totally logical. A plane was shot down over the Ukraine and no stopping of International flights. That area is equally as dangerous as Israel yet Israel gets isolated for 36 hours. Ukraine does not have an Iron Dome. Israel does. El Al was still flying during the no-flight time and I did not hear of any trouble, likewise Bloomberg flew to Israel to prove this point. Cruz-Think for me on this score.


Was that aircraft LANDING in Ukraine? No. 
It is a completely different scenario and despite that there is all sorts of shouting the Ukraine is responsible for the safety of travellers using their airspace. 
You neglected to respond to what the reaction would be if upwards of 200 American Jews were shot out of the air considering the above. One mile from Ben Gurion and yet Israel insists they could keep travellers safe? It is a ridiculous guarantee. 
But you stick with Cruz. He is a great choice.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> You have REALLY lousy taste in men. :wink:


You don't have to remind me.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> My position is totally logical. A plane was shot down over the Ukraine and no stopping of International flights. That area is equally as dangerous as Israel yet Israel gets isolated for 36 hours. Ukraine does not have an Iron Dome. Israel does. El Al was still flying during the no-flight time and I did not hear of any trouble, likewise Bloomberg flew to Israel to prove this point. Cruz-Think for me on this score.


I read in today's papers that El Al planes are equipped with anti missile defense systems.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Yes, Marilyn, and those flew into Ben Gurion. It isn't like there wasn't an option. I read that the airport was like a ghost town as there were only two planes landing at about the same time, the one the blogger was on and one other. 
Funny how we continue to say planes.



MarilynKnits said:


> I read in today's papers that El Al planes are equipped with anti missile defense systems.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> I read in today's papers that El Al planes are equipped with anti missile defense systems.


I hope they are right. I still wouldn't want to be in a plane or have one of my family in a plane that Hamas decided was fair game.

I don't believe Cruz ever makes a statement without a great deal of thought and the conclusion that he will gain votes or approval for saying it. It seems he has gained you!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

double post.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

ute4kp said:


> Don't pay any attn to the PG troll.


Peacegoddess is not a troll. She has strong opinions, and sometimes they clash with others', but she's sincere in what she's saying. I disagree with her about the Israel/Gaza situation, but so what?


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Exactly, we are a passionate group. One of the biggest attractions to this group is that we don't move in lock step, that we can disagree, that we can be annoyed and zealous and on seemingly oppositie ends of a continuum and then... day two, agree on almost every point.



Poor Purl said:


> Peacegoddess is not a troll. She has strong opinions, and sometimes they clash with others', but she's sincere in what she's saying. I disagree with her about the Israel/Gaza situation, but so what?


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I don't believe Cruz ever makes a statement without a great deal of thought and the conclusion that he will gain votes or approval for saying it. It seems he has gained you!


Huh? He has gained my love as much as Chris Christie. Not. I don't love men I can't trust. I don't ever vote for people who appear to be two faced. Yes, I do vote, but try to find the least of the evils among all the people running.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Why weren't planes stopped from flying over the Ukraine? Someone there knocked out a flight - didn't happen in Israel.


It is *because* a plane was shot down in the Ukraine.

It is a fact that terrorists look and see what is successful and then follow suit - This happens quite often. It was one of the first things I thought of when it happened. "Where is some nut case terrorist gong to do it again?" Israel is in Hamas's way, they will do anything to hurt Israel. Israel has promised that it will be safe to go there. It would be a perfect time for Hamas to prove them wrong. They see it happening in Eastern Europe and think, hmm, that is a good idea. It is obvious that they have the ability.

It is not my imagination. I don't really care whether Bloomberg agrees with you. I also agree that it would upset Israel to acknowledge the threat, but there is a good possibility there is a good chance that Hamas will decide to do something like it. Once a wall (door) is breached, it is easy for someone else to do the same. That is life.

It has shown that here. Once someone has been targeted, it is easy to carry on the targeting. The ground has been broken. Just, once again my feelings about it. I think it was the right move. Whether it might have happened we will never know, but I do think it was a good move on the part of the international airlines.

I am sure that you have a justifiable reason in your mind for being happy with Cruz. He scares me - and I don't even live there. I wouldn't give him one little bit of support. If he wins the Presidency (and I doubt he has even a slim chance, thank heavens, as there are some people on the right who also see through him), your country will really be in trouble.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitanon said:


> Exactly, we are a passionate group. One of the biggest attractions to this group is that we don't move in lock step, that we can disagree, that we can be annoyed and zealous and on seemingly oppositie ends of a continuum and then... day two, agree on almost every point.


Does this mean we can't punish Peace by chasing her away? Phooey! :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Her, PG? Neither, I.



Poor Purl said:


> Does this mean we can't punish Peace by chasing her away? Phooey! :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitanon said:


> Her, PG? Neither, I.


Some things never get old. Thanks for the reminder.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Knitanon said:


> Exactly, we are a passionate group. One of the biggest attractions to this group is that we don't move in lock step, that we can disagree, that we can be annoyed and zealous and on seemingly oppositie ends of a continuum and then... day two, agree on almost every point.


Very well put!


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Does this mean we can't punish Peace by chasing her away? Phooey! :roll: :roll: :roll:


Only here for a short time. The latest from Democracy Now
Monday, July 28, 2014 FULL SHOW | HEADLINES | PREVIOUS: What Do Gazans Endure? A Palestinian Student Who Lost... 2014-07-28 
Professor Ilan Pappé: Israel Has Chosen to be a "Racist Apartheid State" with U.S. SupportDonate download: Video Audio Get CD/DVD More Formats Related Stories How the West Chose War in Gaza: Crisis Tied to Israeli-U.S. Effort to Isolate Hamas & Keep the Siege
Not In Our Name: Jewish Activists Arrested in Sit-in at Friends of Israel Defense Forces NYC Office

TopicsIsrael, Gaza, Israel & Palestine GuestsIlan Pappé, professor of history and the director of the European Centre for Palestine Studies at the University of Exeter. He is the author of several books, including, most recently, The Idea of Israel: A History of Power and Knowledge. 
RelatedIsraeli Writer Gideon Levy: If Netanyahu Wants to Stop the Rockets, He Needs to Accept a Just PeaceJul 22, 2014 | Story What Does Hamas Really Want? Israeli Journalist Gideon Levy on Ending the Crippling Blockade of GazaJul 22, 2014 | Story Norwegian Physician Treating Wounded Civilians: Stop the Bombing, End Israeli Impunity in GazaJul 14, 2014 | Story LinksBook: "The Idea of Israel: A History of Power and Knowledge." By Ilan Pappé (Verso) European Centre for Palestine Studies at the University of Exeter See all Democracy Now! reports about the Gaza conflict

As the Palestinian death toll tops 1,000 in Gaza, we are joined from Haifa by Israeli professor and historian Ilan Pappé. "I think Israel in 2014 made a decision that it prefers to be a racist apartheid state and not a democracy," Pappé says. "It still hopes that the United States will license this decision and provide it with the immunity to continue, with the necessary implication of such a policy vis-à-vis the Palestinians wherever they are." A professor of history and the director of the European Centre for Palestine Studies at the University of Exeter, Pappé is the author of several books, including most recently, "The Idea of Israel: A History of Power and Knowledge."

AMY GOODMAN: As we continue our coverage of the crisis in Gaza, we go to Haifa, Israel, to speak with Ilan Pappé, a professor of history and the director of the European Centre for Palestine Studies at the University of Exeter in Britain. Hes the author of a number of books, including, most recently, The Idea of Israel: A History of Power and Knowledge, joining us by Democracy Now! video stream from Haifa.

Welcome to Democracy Now!, Professor Pappé. At this point, over a thousand Palestinians have been killed, as well, I believe the number is 45 Israeli soldiers, and three civilians have been killed in Israel. Can you talk about the latest negotiations over a ceasefire and what you think needs to happen?

ILAN PAPPÉ: Its good to be on your show, Amy. There is no sign for a ceasefire on the ground itself. And there are sort of two competing initiatives still going on: The Egyptian-Israeli initiative that actually wants to dictate to the Hamas a return to the status quo and sort of marginalize and disregard everything that Hamas was fighting for, and there is a more serious effort that the secretary of state was trying to push forward, John Kerry, with the help of the Qataris and the Turks, to try and address at least some of the issues that are at the heart of this present wave of violence. But so far, none of the two has affected the reality on the ground, apart from a certain lull in the last few hours compared to the last 20 days.

AMY GOODMAN: There were protests in Tel Aviv. How many people came out at those protests, as well as Haifa this weekend? Were you there at the protest in Haifa, Professor Pappé?

ILAN PAPPÉ: Yes, yes, I was. Haifa, there were about 700 people. In Tel Aviv, there were 3,000. I should say that, of course, a large number of the protesters are Palestinian citizens of Israel. So the number of Israeli Jews who are courageous enough to come out and demonstrate is even smaller than these numbers indicate. And they were met by a very vicious reaction both from right-wing demonstrators and very harshand were harshly treated by the police.

AMY GOODMAN: What do you think its most important for people to understand about the conflict?

ILAN PAPPÉ: I think the most important thing is the historical context. When you listen to mainstream media coverage of the situation in Gaza, you get the impression that it all starts with an unreasonable launching of rockets into Israel by the Hamas. And two very basic historical kind of backgrounds are being missed. The very immediate one goes back to June this year, when Israel decided, by force, to try and demolish the Hamas politically in the West Bank and foil the attempts of the unity government of Palestine to push forward an international campaign to bring Israel to justice on the basis of the agenda of human rights and civil rights.

And the deeper historical context is the fact that ever since 2005, the Gaza Strip is beingor people in the Gaza Strip are being incarcerated as criminals, and their only crime is that they are Palestinians in a geopolitical location that Israel doesnt know how to deal with. And when they elected democratically someone who was vowed to struggle against this ghettoizing or this siege, Israel reacted with all its force. So, this sort of wider historical context, that would explain to people that it is a desperate attempt to get out of the situation that your previous interviewee was talking about, is at the heart of the issue, and therefore it is soluble. One can solve this situation by lifting the siege, by allowing the people of Gaza to be connected with their brothers and sisters in the West Bank, and by allowing them to be connected to the world and not to live under circumstances that no one else in the world seems to experience at this moment in time.

AMY GOODMAN: Professor Pappé, over the weekend, BBC correspondent Jon Donnison reported on what was called an Israeli admission that Hamas was not responsible for the killing of the three Israeli teenagers in the West Bank in June. On Twitter, Donnison said Israeli police spokesperson Micky Rosenfeld told him the suspects who killed the three teenagers were a lone cell affiliated with Hamas but not operating under its leadership. What is the significance of this?

ILAN PAPPÉ: Its very significant, because this was, of course, known to the Israelis the moment they heard about this abduction and the killing of the three young settlers. It was very clear that Israel was looking for a pretext to try and launch both a military operation in the West Bank and in the Gaza Strip in order to try and bring back the situation in Palestine to what it was during the failed peace process, with a sort of good domicile, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, in a way that they could forget about it and continue with the colonization of the West Bank without the need to change anything in their attitude or policies. And the depression in the West Bank, the frustration, the anger, especially in May 2014, of the killing of five young Palestinians by the Israeli army, burst out in this local action, this local initiative, that had nothing to do with the strategy of the Hamas, that was willing to try and give Abu Mazen leeway to create a unity government and to try the new initiativegoing to the United Nations, going to international bodies, in order to make Israel accountable for more than 46 years of colonization and occupation. So it really highlights the connection between a pretext and a policy and a strategy which has wreaked such carnage in Gaza today.

AMY GOODMAN: Finally, Professor Pappé, you worked in Israel for years as a professor. You left Israel and now teach at the University of Exeter in Britain. Youve returned to Haifa. Do you see a change in your country?

ILAN PAPPÉ: Yes, unfortunately, a change for the worse. I think the Israel is at a crossroad, but it has already made its decision which way it is going from this junction. It was in a junction where it had to decide finally whether it wants to be a democracy or to be a racist and apartheid state, given the realities on the ground. I think Israel, in 2014, made a decision that it prefers to be a racist apartheid state and not a democracy, and it still hopes that the United States would license this decision and provide it with the immunity to continue with the necessary implication of such a policy vis-à-vis the Palestinians, wherever they are.

AMY GOODMAN: What do you think the U.S. should do?

ILAN PAPPÉ: Well, the U.S. should apply the basic definitions of democracy to Israel and recognize that it is giving, its providing an unconditional support for a regime that systematically abuses the human rights and the civil rights of anyone who is not a Jew between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean. If America wants clearly to support such regimesit had done it in the pastthats OK. But if it feels that it wants to send a different message to the Middle East, then it really has a different agenda of human rights

AMY GOODMAN: We have two seconds.

ILAN PAPPÉ: Yeah, human rights and civil rights in Palestine.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Thank you for posting.
And now I have a naive question: are non-Jews allowed to live anywhere in Israel?


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

cookiequeen said:


> Thank you for posting.
> And now I have a naive question: are non-Jews allowed to live anywhere in Israel?


Yes. There are many Christian-Israelis and Arab-Israelis, there are even Palestinian-Israelis, living throughout Israel. While Israel is the national religion, everyone is free to observe the religion they choose.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Yes they have the same rights and privileges.


Thanks for your continuing strong support of Israel.

Have you ever visited? Have any of the other ladies visited Israel?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

*The Bizarre Moral Criticism Against Israel*
Eric H. Yoffie

What does it mean to say that casualties are disproportionate?

On NBC Nightly News on July 12, David Gregory spoke of growing pressure from the United Nations for a ceasefire in Gaza. He noted that the United States and many other nations believed that Israel had a right to self-defense. Nonetheless, Gregory reported, these countries were likely to be sympathetic to calls for a ceasefire because of the disproportionate number of casualties between the two sides. Among the residents of Gaza, the death toll then exceeded 100, while Israel had suffered dozens of injuries but no casualties.

Mr. Gregory was simply reporting the news, but I found his comments disturbing, nonetheless. What does it mean to say that the casualties are disproportionate? And is that really the moral issue that we need to be concerned about?

The implication of the disproportionality claim is that, given their losses, the people of Gaza are the real victims. But morally and politically, this is an intolerable and distorted interpretation of the realities in the region.

The reason that Hamas has not killed more Israelis is not because they havent tried. In the seven years during which it has controlled Gaza, Hamas and its proxies have fired more than 5000 rockets into Israel; almost 800 have been launched just this past week. Each one has been aimed at civilians and intended to murder and maim. The reason that more Israelis have not died is that the weapons are mostly crude and inaccurate and that, over time, Israel has prepared herself with shelters, warning sirens and an anti-missile system. In addition, Israelis have been just plain lucky.

But that luck could change at any moment. If a single rocket were to hit a school or a mall, the number of dead could balance out in a flash. Then, to be sure, you would have proportionality, but there is no moral calculus by which additional dead civilians is a preferable outcome.

For Israel, the fundamental issue is the responsibility of its government to protect its citizens. As missiles have fallen on her cities over the years, the government has not succeeded in providing that protection. The reasons are many, including sensitivity to American wishes and a concern for world opinion; but the desire not to hurt the innocent is the most important. Now, however, as children in the south continue to live in terror and civilians throughout Israel flee to shelters several times daily, Israels leaders have concluded that they must act.

There is something bizarre, in fact, about the idea of proportionality being used as a moral criticism against Israel. A proportional response by Israel to the attacks of the last seven years would mean that every time a rocket is fired by Hamas at an Israeli civilian center, Israel would respond by firing a rocket at a civilian center in Gaza. Israel, of course, rejected that, then and now. Still, when Hamas violated the ceasefire yet again and got its hands on longer-range rockets, something had to be done.

The best way to evaluate Israels action is to imagine how we as Americans would respond to similar provocations. Assume the following: a terrorist group embedded in Mexico that the Mexican government refused to disarm is firing missiles into Houston night after night, endangering American lives. Our government would not wait a week or a month; indeed, it would not wait a single day before taking action to assure the well-being of her citizens. In fact, we need only remember how American forces flew half way around the world to engage in a war in Afghanistan against terrorists who carried out an attack on American soil. The talk then was not of proportionality, but of providing security for our country and stopping those who wished to do us harm.

Of course, let us not think for a moment, God forbid, that we can be indifferent to the death of innocents. The death of any child, Israeli or Arab, Muslim or Jew, is an unspeakable tragedy that rends the heart. Israel must do everything humanly possible to avoid the civilian casualties; already she issues warnings and calls for evacuation of areas about to be attacked, and must do more. Still, for any country, morality begins with a reasonable measure of security for her own citizens, and it is not right to say that Israel must protect Palestinian civilians at the cost of abandoning her own.

The issue was never proportionality; it is the suffering and dying of too many Arabs and Jews. And while there is much that is complicated about the Middle East, ending the violence in Gaza is not complicated. Hamas needs to halt the missile attacks and provide credible assurances to Israel and the world that they will not be resumed. If the rockets stop, quiet can come tomorrow. And tomorrow is not soon enough.

_Rabbi Eric H. Yoffie, a writer and lecturer, was President of the Union for Reform Judaism from 1996 to 2012. His writings are collected at ericyoffie.com._


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> *The Bizarre Moral Criticism Against Israel*
> Eric H. Yoffie
> 
> What does it mean to say that casualties are disproportionate?
> ...


Thanks, PP! I am going to share this with my mother. It is so well written and to the point. He said it better than any of us were trying to!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> *The Bizarre Moral Criticism Against Israel*
> Eric H. Yoffie
> 
> What does it mean to say that casualties are disproportionate?
> ...


Very best post of the day. Cheers to PP and a point can be found hidden behind the 2 es.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

This gentleman has to have so much courage. I admire him for speaking out.

http://www.israelvideonetwork.com/you-wont-believe-what-the-son-of-hamas-just-said-on-cnn


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

joeysomma said:


> Good post! I agree. Israel has the right to protect its citizens and residents. Hamas can stop at any time.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

I saw a report on our news channel yesterday that Hamas intended importing rockets with better guidance technology from North Korea and was wondering if it appeared in news broadcasts in USA. The article stated that North Korea had sent rockets to Lebanon to aid Hezbollah in its war against Israel. 

Many people have slammed Israel for not permitting Gaza to import concrete needed to build houses but I do not think that these people realise what Hamas uses this concrete to build. How many tunnels have been constructed underneath the border into Israel? There have been reports that these tunnels contain handcuffs and tranquilizers to be used on the Israeli prisoners they take. How many tunnels have been built under the border into Egypt in order to smuggle arms into Gaza. I read that Egypt has destroyed over 1,300 of these tunnels in recent months as Hamas fighters are using them to cross into Egypt in order to join the Muslim Brotherhood and bring down the present government in Egypt. These points are often overlooked in the arguments .


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

EveMCooke said:


> I saw a report on our news channel yesterday that Hamas intended importing rockets with better guidance technology from North Korea and was wondering if it appeared in news broadcasts in USA. The article stated that North Korea had sent rockets to Lebanon to aid Hezbollah in its war against Israel.
> 
> Many people have slammed Israel for not permitting Gaza to import concrete needed to build houses but I do not think that these people realise what Hamas uses this concrete to build. How many tunnels have been constructed underneath the border into Israel? There have been reports that these tunnels contain handcuffs and tranquilizers to be used on the Israeli prisoners they take. How many tunnels have been built under the border into Egypt in order to smuggle arms into Gaza. I read that Egypt has destroyed over 1,300 of these tunnels in recent months as Hamas fighters are using them to cross into Egypt in order to join the Muslim Brotherhood and bring down the present government in Egypt. These points are often overlooked in the arguments .


That's scary about North Korea. It doesn't surprise me, though.

Not only what would they be using the cement for, but what would they be smuggling IN WITH the cement? I mentioned before how Israel donated ambulances to the Palestinians and they (this was before Hamas, I don't remember who was "in charge" at the time) used them against the Israelis as bombs. After this, Israel stopped allowing ambulances out of or into certain areas. All the world heard was "Israel won't let ambulances through... Israel won't allow injured people to be cared for." Of course, this was exactly what the terrorists want. Why can't people see that?


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Natureschampion said:


> That's scary about North Korea. It doesn't surprise me, though.
> 
> Not only what would they be using the cement for, but what would they be smuggling IN WITH the cement? I mentioned before how Israel donated ambulances to the Palestinians and they (this was before Hamas, I don't remember who was "in charge" at the time) used them against the Israelis as bombs. After this, Israel stopped allowing ambulances out of or into certain areas. All the world heard was "Israel won't let ambulances through... Israel won't allow injured people to be cared for." Of course, this was exactly what the terrorists want. Why can't people see that?


I also heard on one of our news broadcasts that Hamas wants the most tear jerking images of injured and killed children to be broadcast to the rest of the world. It was suggested that some of these photo shoots were engineered by Hamas. I know it is horrific when innocent children are killed but it is even more so when these deaths are used to gain support for a terrorist organisation. I have now stopped attending a fortnightly craft group that I have been attending for more than 20 years because several people present were very vocal in their condemnation of Israel. They could not, or would not, see that their views were biased. One of them told me "Well what do you expect from the Jews, after all they killed Christ." I told her that the vatican had denounced that view some years ago but she then went of with a lot of nonsense against the Jews, I will not repeat it here but it was nonsense that I heard in the 1950s. At that stage I told these ladies that they were entitled to their views even if they were misguided and misinformed, but I no longer wished to be associated with a group who espoused such nonsense. I left and have not been back and at this stage I am not planning on going back. These were the same ladies who were against Australia accepting refugees because they were Muslim and in their eyes all Muslims were terrorists. They could not see the irony in their present stand, supporting Hamas, but denigrating Muslim refugees.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

EveMCooke said:


> I also heard on one of our news broadcasts that Hamas wants the most tear jerking images of injured and killed children to be broadcast to the rest of the world. It was suggested that some of these photo shoots were engineered by Hamas. I know it is horrific when innocent children are killed but it is even more so when these deaths are used to gain support for a terrorist organisation. I have now stopped attending a fortnightly craft group that I have been attending for more than 20 years because several people present were very vocal in their condemnation of Israel. They could not, or would not, see that their views were biased. One of them told me "Well what do you expect from the Jews, after all they killed Christ." I told her that the vatican had denounced that view some years ago but she then went of with a lot of nonsense against the Jews, I will not repeat it here but it was nonsense that I heard in the 1950s. At that stage I told these ladies that they were entitled to their views even if they were misguided and misinformed, but I no longer wished to be associated with a group who espoused such nonsense. I left and have not been back and at this stage I am not planning on going back. These were the same ladies who were against Australia accepting refugees because they were Muslim and in their eyes all Muslims were terrorists. They could not see the irony in their present stand, supporting Hamas, but denigrating Muslim refugees.


On behalf of Jews around the world, I thank you. It takes a very strong character to stand up to such hatred, regardless of the subject. Especially when it's a close social group. People not doing what you did is how certain atrocities are allowed to occur. It seems that people just need to hate and find misery in things. It's weird bc we are such a small minority, much less than .5% of the worlds population. Kinda sad, huh? That such a small group of people can attract such hostility? The "irony" you speak of is more hypocrisy as far as I can see it.

Hamas, the PLO black sabbath, they all did it and will continue to, regardless of what they call themselves. One of their MOs is releasing pictures of a child or family that was "killed" by the Israelis, when in fact they died in other countries, or (and this is the best one) they would say they were Palestinians killed by Israelites, when in fact they were Israelites killed by the group presenting the photo! I wrote many papers on this when I was a freshman in college. What you told me doesn't surprise me in the least. In fact, I expected it.

Did you watch the video I posted a little while ago tonight? It was the son of a leader of Hamas who defected. My mom sent it to me and said "you were right. Everything you said about Hamas, he said." I am quite good at "psychically" predicting how people will act and their motives. It's a gift, and a curse 

Thanks again for your support of all humanity, not just the Jews. I will continue to do the same!


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

EveMCooke said:


> I also heard on one of our news broadcasts that Hamas wants the most tear jerking images of injured and killed children to be broadcast to the rest of the world. It was suggested that some of these photo shoots were engineered by Hamas. I know it is horrific when innocent children are killed but it is even more so when these deaths are used to gain support for a terrorist organisation. I have now stopped attending a fortnightly craft group that I have been attending for more than 20 years because several people present were very vocal in their condemnation of Israel. They could not, or would not, see that their views were biased. One of them told me "Well what do you expect from the Jews, after all they killed Christ." I told her that the vatican had denounced that view some years ago but she then went of with a lot of nonsense against the Jews, I will not repeat it here but it was nonsense that I heard in the 1950s. At that stage I told these ladies that they were entitled to their views even if they were misguided and misinformed, but I no longer wished to be associated with a group who espoused such nonsense. I left and have not been back and at this stage I am not planning on going back. These were the same ladies who were against Australia accepting refugees because they were Muslim and in their eyes all Muslims were terrorists. They could not see the irony in their present stand, supporting Hamas, but denigrating Muslim refugees.


"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of of the people who are evil, but because of the people who do nothing about it."
-Albert Einstein

Thank you for being the person who does something about it. I wish more people were like you.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

I so strongly agree with this statement, "The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of of the people who are evil, but because of the people who do nothing about it." -Albert Einstein


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

EveMCooke said:


> I so strongly agree with this statement, "The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of of the people who are evil, but because of the people who do nothing about it." -Albert Einstein


Me too. Albert Einstein was one of those rare geniuses whose expertise spanned many fields. He was a true humanitarian. We should all try to live by his philosophies.

One of my favorite philosophers is John Stuart Mill. He wrote a lot about liberty and equality. His father, I believe, said something that resonated in me. There are 2 types of thinkers, or experts. There is the "fox" and the "hedgehog". The hedgehog is good at doing one thing, but he is the best at it. He views things through a "single lens" (as Berlin put it). The fox is excellent at many things, or approaches things from many angles. Albert Einstein is the fox. I know Isaiah Berlin is credited with this philosophy, as is Tolstoy. But I distinctly recall learning that it was john mill who first expanded the idea from Greek philosophy. But maybe that was just my "liberal education." Or maybe I'm remembering it wrong. It was a long time ago...


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

It sounds like Austalian news has gone the way of the US news. Unless they have someone from Hamas appearing to confirm or deny that they are using kids as heartbreakers it shouldn't be on the news shows. 
Now do thinking people KNOW that they are doing that? Of course. 
Do thinking people wonder why Hamas leadership gets to hide their cowardly little butts in those same tunnels used for sneaking into Israeli territory to kill? Of course.

It ain't news without verification. 
So far as the rest of it goes, I suppose it is comforting to know that there are people there who are just as ignorant as many people here.



EveMCooke said:


> I also heard on one of our news broadcasts that Hamas wants the most tear jerking images of injured and killed children to be broadcast to the rest of the world. It was suggested that some of these photo shoots were engineered by Hamas. I know it is horrific when innocent children are killed but it is even more so when these deaths are used to gain support for a terrorist organisation. I have now stopped attending a fortnightly craft group that I have been attending for more than 20 years because several people present were very vocal in their condemnation of Israel. They could not, or would not, see that their views were biased. One of them told me "Well what do you expect from the Jews, after all they killed Christ." I told her that the vatican had denounced that view some years ago but she then went of with a lot of nonsense against the Jews, I will not repeat it here but it was nonsense that I heard in the 1950s. At that stage I told these ladies that they were entitled to their views even if they were misguided and misinformed, but I no longer wished to be associated with a group who espoused such nonsense. I left and have not been back and at this stage I am not planning on going back. These were the same ladies who were against Australia accepting refugees because they were Muslim and in their eyes all Muslims were terrorists. They could not see the irony in their present stand, supporting Hamas, but denigrating Muslim refugees.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> It sounds like Austalian news has gone the way of the US news. Unless they have someone from Hamas appearing to confirm or deny that they are using kids as heartbreakers it shouldn't be on the news shows.
> Now do thinking people KNOW that they are doing that? Of course.
> Do thinking people wonder why Hamas leadership gets to hide their cowardly little butts in those same tunnels used for sneaking into Israeli territory to kill? Of course.
> 
> ...


I think it was Will Rogers who said that you can never go broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Natureschampion said:


> On behalf of Jews around the world, I thank you. It takes a very strong character to stand up to such hatred, regardless of the subject. Especially when it's a close social group. People not doing what you did is how certain atrocities are allowed to occur. It seems that people just need to hate and find misery in things. It's weird bc we are such a small minority, much less than .5% of the worlds population. Kinda sad, huh? That such a small group of people can attract such hostility? The "irony" you speak of is more hypocrisy as far as I can see it.
> 
> Hamas, the PLO black sabbath, they all did it and will continue to, regardless of what they call themselves. One of their MOs is releasing pictures of a child or family that was "killed" by the Israelis, when in fact they died in other countries, or (and this is the best one) they would say they were Palestinians killed by Israelites, when in fact they were Israelites killed by the group presenting the photo! I wrote many papers on this when I was a freshman in college. What you told me doesn't surprise me in the least. In fact, I expected it.
> 
> ...


It's actually only 0.2%.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I think it was Will Rogers who said that you can never go broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.


H. L. Mencken.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> H. L. Mencken.


Thanks for the correction. Did you have to look it up or was it in that 'crowded with great facts' mind of yours? Maybe that is what is meant by saying your apt. is crowded.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Thanks for the correction. Did you have to look it up or was it in that 'crowded with great facts' mind of yours? Maybe that is what is meant by saying your apt. is crowded.


I remembered it, though I did check it to make sure before I posted. The stuff my head is crowded with belongs in a dumpster. Not the stuff in my apartment.

I love the way KPG makes these assumptions about people that are invariably wrong. She needs imagination to do that, but the things she imagines are always unpleasant.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Thanks for the correction. Did you have to look it up or was it in that 'crowded with great facts' mind of yours? Maybe that is what is meant by saying your apt. is crowded.


????????


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Some things never get old. Thanks for the reminder.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Huh? He has gained my love as much as Chris Christie. Not. I don't love men I can't trust. I don't ever vote for people who appear to be two faced. Yes, I do vote, but try to find the least of the evils among all the people running.


Marilyn, I was not saying that to you. You would be the last person that would deserve that.

Being a Canadian - I always vote for the person, not the party. The problem that a lot of countries face is that those who chose Politics as a career start for possibly the right reason, but Power Corrupts and in order to keep the power they forget why they ran in the first place. That is not the case just in the US.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Will wonders never cease?

*Arab Leaders Silent, Viewing Hamas as Worse Than Israel*

CAIRO  Battling Palestinian militants in Gaza two years ago, Israel found itself pressed from all sides by unfriendly Arab neighbors to end the fighting.

Not this time.

After the military ouster of the Islamist government in Cairo last year, Egypt has led a new coalition of Arab states  including Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Jordan  that has effectively lined up with Israel in its fight against Hamas, the Islamist movement that controls the Gaza Strip. That, in turn, may have contributed to the failure of the antagonists to reach a negotiated cease-fire even after more than three weeks of bloodshed.

(much, much more at http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/31/world/middleeast/fighting-political-islam-arab-states-find-themselves-allied-with-israel.html?emc=eta1&_r=0 )


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> Will wonders never cease?
> 
> *Arab Leaders Silent, Viewing Hamas as Worse Than Israel*
> 
> ...


Wow!!! Awesome, thanks!! Its surprising to say the least, but im so glad for it. Its very odd to have so many arab nations rally behind israel, especially when these nations have a history of being so antizionist and antisemitic.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> Will wonders never cease?
> 
> *Arab Leaders Silent, Viewing Hamas as Worse Than Israel*
> 
> ...


Wow!!! Awesome, thanks!! Its surprising to say the least, but im so glad for it. Its very odd to have so many arab nations rally behind israel, especially when these nations have a history of being so antizionist and antisemitic.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> It's actually only 0.2%.


I know, i know.<sigh>. I was trying to be optimistic in saying "less than". I didnt want to admit the truth, either, that for as long as i can remember, the jewish people have had a negative growth rate.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

I think that this was being said on NPR a couple of weeks ago, this is the reason for Hamas pulling this stuff is that they were losing standing with the rest of the Arab leaders and thought that framing themselves as victims of the Israeli gov't would turn the perspective around in their favor. 
Not that Arabs like Israel's existence more, just that they like Hamas less, I think. 
Anyway, it was reported then that the play didn't work. 
Regardless of the games that the leadership on both sides are playing, I weep for the little guy who always gets the short end of the stick.

Meanwhile, did anyone hear the story of the Syrian police photog who defected with something like 55K pics of tortured individuals (11K dead) that he is claiming were killed by the Assad regime?



Poor Purl said:


> Will wonders never cease?
> 
> *Arab Leaders Silent, Viewing Hamas as Worse Than Israel*
> 
> ...


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Natureschampion said:


> I know, i know.<sigh>. I was trying to be optimistic in saying "less than". I didnt want to admit the truth, either, that for as long as i can remember, the jewish people have had a negative growth rate.


Better get busy, Nature. You're still young!


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Who really started the current fight? The kidnapping and death of the 3 teens. The rockets shot into Israel with no military purpose?
> 
> Hamas using its civilians to protect their rockets, and Israel using its rockets to protect its civilians.


My opinion exactly. Glad we can agree on some issues.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I remembered it, though I did check it to make sure before I posted. The stuff my head is crowded with belongs in a dumpster. Not the stuff in my apartment.
> 
> I love the way KPG makes these assumptions about people that are invariably wrong. She needs imagination to do that, but the things she imagines are always unpleasant.


And either she chooses not to or does not know how to do research on the Internet to verify her "facts".


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Natureschampion said:


> Wow!!! Awesome, thanks!! Its surprising to say the least, but im so glad for it. Its very odd to have so many arab nations rally behind israel, especially when these nations have a history of being so antizionist and antisemitic.


These were the same countries that wouldn't allow Palestinians to assimilate into the population when they ran there in 1948. Every one of those countries kept them in camps because they were known to be troublemakers. Egypt and Jordan have been trading with Israel for a while and probably see the benefits. But Saudi Arabia is a big surprise.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Better get busy, Nature. You're still young!


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> And either she chooses not to or does not know how to do research on the Internet to verify her "facts".


I think she knows how, but uses it for things that are none of her business, like finding people's real names and addresses, etc. But she talks about my crowded apartment, which is very funny.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

72-Hour Cease-Fire Announced in Gaza

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/01/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-conflict.html?emc=eta1&_r=0

Now we can find out how long 72 hours lasts in Gaza.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> 72-Hour Cease-Fire Announced in Gaza
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/01/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-conflict.html?emc=eta1&_r=0
> 
> Now we can find out how long 72 hours lasts in Gaza.


Yup, those clocks have run a bit fast in other cease fire circumstances.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> 72-Hour Cease-Fire Announced in Gaza
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/01/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-conflict.html?emc=eta1&_r=0
> 
> Now we can find out how long 72 hours lasts in Gaza.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Natureschampion said:


> Wow!!! Awesome, thanks!! Its surprising to say the least, but im so glad for it. Its very odd to have so many arab nations rally behind israel, especially when these nations have a history of being so antizionist and antisemitic.


Maybe they are realizing that it isn't so bad to have Isreal in the mix. I am not too familiar with the situation. Does Isreal deal with any of the arab countries as far as Trade and other things? Hamas seems to have lost favor with the rest of the arab world.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Huh? He has gained my love as much as Chris Christie. Not. I don't love men I can't trust. I don't ever vote for people who appear to be two faced. Yes, I do vote, but try to find the least of the evils among all the people running.


I was answering SQM. maybe it wasn't clear. I wouldn't trust either of them as far as I could through them.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

joeysomma said:


> _..." my job is simple to understand -- you elected me to make it a little easier for hard-working Americans to succeed."_
> 
> Have you found this as a part of the President's job description, in the Constitution?


Just bc it isn't written in the constitution, doesn't mean it's not his job. The president is sworn to uphold the constitution and follow it, but it does not limit his job description. Especially since it was written at a different time with different issues in mind. Everything's so black and white, isn't it?

SCOTUS definitely went beyond their job description when they ruled that "corporations are people." Nowhere in the constitution does it say they have the power to do that. MONEY gave them the power to do that.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Maybe they are realizing that it isn't so bad to have Isreal in the mix. I am not too familiar with the situation. Does Isreal deal with any of the arab countries as far as Trade and other things? Hamas seems to have lost favor with the rest of the arab world.


They have pretty good relations with Jordan, and some kind of dealings with Egypt. Even after the revolution, the government has kept up the connection - Islamic Brotherhood tried to end it, but after they were kicked out, it went back into effect.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Natureschampion said:


> Just bc it isn't written in the constitution, doesn't mean it's not his job. The president is sworn to uphold the constitution and follow it, but it does not limit his job description. Especially since it was written at a different time with different issues in mind. Everything's so black and white, isn't it?
> 
> SCOTUS definitely went beyond their job description when they ruled that "corporations are people." Nowhere in the constitution does it say they have the power to do that. MONEY gave them the power to do that.


Besides what he is quoted as saying is that this was a reason people elected/voted for him. I missed any reference to his being in the middle of formulating a job application.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Designer1234 said:


> Maybe they are realizing that it isn't so bad to have Isreal in the mix. I am not too familiar with the situation. Does Isreal deal with any of the arab countries as far as Trade and other things? Hamas seems to have lost favor with the rest of the arab world.


One of the problems Egypt is facing is the same that Israel is. The new government is trying to set up a more peaceful nation, and allies of Hamas are trying to foil that. The other nations are faced with the same issue. If Israel were to fall, these groups would have that much more power, and a very convenient base of operations smack dab in the middle of everything.

Israel has had friendly relations with Jordan at least ever since they helped Jordan with water conservation and aqueducts. Jordan learned that is more productive to have Israel as a friend than an enemy. Or at least this is what I believe. There may be more history to it than that. I'm not sure what trade is like with the other countries. There has been so much back and forth, and a lot of distrust.

Hamas has lost popularity with the Arab world just like al-Queda and others have lost a lot of followers in their nations. I think a majority of these citizens are sick of the wars and living in fear. New governments that have the concerns of their people in mind want a new way of life. I don't think there are as many supporters of these terrorist groups as there once were, or that we think there are. I think a lot of people are just afraid to do anything bc they know they mean nothing to these people and their lives are worth nothing to these people, other than a means to a very destructive end.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

Knitanon said:


> Besides what he is quoted as saying is that this was a reason people elected/voted for him. I missed any reference to his being in the middle of formulating a job application.


Good point. I briefly thought of that, but lost it once I had what I said typed out. Thanks!


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Natureschampion said:


> Good point. I briefly thought of that, but lost it once I had what I said typed out. Thanks!


Believe me, I understand. Sometimes I spend a good amount of time writing what I think is a really good post and then close it out with no energy left to rewrite it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Hamas sure moves fast. Instead of 72 hours, it maybe lasted 72 minutes.

*Gaza Cease-Fire Collapses; Israeli Soldier Is Captured*

JERUSALEM  A newly reached cease-fire in the Gaza conflict quickly collapsed on Friday as the Israeli military announced that two soldiers had been killed and a third captured by Palestinian militants who emerged from a tunnel near Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip. The Israelis responded with fierce assaults that left dozens more Palestinians dead.

The United States and United Nations, which had orchestrated the cease-fire, joined with Israel in condemning the capture, and President Obama asserted that the soldier must be freed in order to salvage a halt to the 25-day-old crisis.

Gaza health officials said at least 70 Palestinians were killed and more than 100 wounded as Israeli forces bombarded the Rafah area. Palestinian witnesses said by telephone that Israeli tank shells had hit eastern Rafah as residents returned to inspect homes they had evacuated.

Each side accused the other of violating the 72-hour truce, which disintegrated in less than two hours.

Hamas, the dominant militant group in Gaza, said in a statement that Israels announcement about the capture of an Israeli soldier was intended to cover up the barbaric massacres, especially in Rafah.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/02/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-conflict.html?emc=eta1&_r=0


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

!


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Hamas sure moves fast. Instead of 72 hours, it maybe lasted 72 minutes.
> Hamas, the dominant militant group in Gaza, said in a statement that Israels announcement about the capture of an Israeli soldier was intended to cover up the barbaric massacres, especially in Rafah.


Hamas forgot to mention that the soldier was captured when Hamas militants entered into Israel via the tunnels Hamas built under the border in order to kill and capture Israel citizens. They forgot to mention that these militants killed Israelie soldiers inside Israel.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Hamas forgot to mention that the soldier was captured when Hamas militants entered into Israel via the tunnels Hamas built under the border in order to kill and capture Israel citizens. They forgot to mention that these militants killed Israelie soldiers inside Israel.


They sound kind of forgetful.

The interesting thing about the tunnels is that when they were originally dug, it was so that Gazans could do business with Egyptians, and leave Gaza without having to go through Israeli checkpoints. They started sometime in the 1980s. But Hamas seems to have found a better use for them.


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

EveMCooke said:


> Hamas forgot to mention that the soldier was captured when Hamas militants entered into Israel via the tunnels Hamas built under the border in order to kill and capture Israel citizens. They forgot to mention that these militants killed Israelie soldiers inside Israel.


Hamas "forgets" to mention a lot of things. They also insert their version of " the truth" wherever they think it will suit them best. Gee, who else do we know who is like that? :shock: :shock: :roll: :roll:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> They sound kind of forgetful.
> 
> The interesting thing about the tunnels is that when they were originally dug, it was so that Gazans could do business with Egyptians, and leave Gaza without having to go through Israeli checkpoints. They started sometime in the 1980s. But Hamas seems to have found a better use for them.


Yes, I agree but these were the tunnels into Egypt. Hamas has since built tunnels directly under the Gaza - Israel border into Israel. Hamas said they wanted to use the tunnels into Egypt to import cement to build houses for the civilians but this cement was used to build the tunnels into Israel.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Natureschampion said:


> Hamas "forgets" to mention a lot of things. They also insert their version of " the truth" wherever they think it will suit them best. Gee, who else do we know who is like that? :shock: :shock: :roll: :roll:


 No one here on KP is guilty of telling a mistruth or misleading anyone???????????? No, me thinks we are confusing ourselves with some other posters on some other site, perhaps the Keeping Pretty site?????????? Everyone here only says nice things about others???????? :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Natureschampion (Mar 17, 2014)

EveMCooke said:


> No one here on KP is guilty of telling a mistruth or misleading anyone???????????? No, me thinks we are confusing ourselves with some other posters on some other site, perhaps the Keeping Pretty site?????????? Everyone here only says nice things about others???????? :XD: :XD: :XD:


Do I deduce a hint of sarcasm in that response? Just a teensy weensy bit?? Hmmmmmmm????

:XD: :XD: :XD: :thumbup: :thumbup: :wink: :wink: :wink:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I guess I can revisit the Ruth B. Ginsburg topic here. Obama has asked her to resign by November in case the Republicans get more seats. She is refusing. She is in her 80s and had cancer. What do you think?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes, I agree but these were the tunnels into Egypt. Hamas has since built tunnels directly under the Gaza - Israel border into Israel. Hamas said they wanted to use the tunnels into Egypt to import cement to build houses for the civilians but this cement was used to build the tunnels into Israel.


Once they learned construction skill, what better way to use them than to tunnel into the neighboring country? Houses for civilians? Please.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I guess I can revisit the Ruth B. Ginsburg topic here. Obama has asked her to resign by November in case the Republicans get more seats. She is refusing. She is in her 80s and had cancer. What do you think?


She's needed where she is. The cancer wasn't in her brain, and the righties hate because she speaks her mind.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> She's needed where she is. The cancer wasn't in her brain, and the righties hate because she speaks her mind.


Here she is, darling Rith.or Ruth.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

That group otherwise known as the KP terrorists?


Natureschampion said:


> Hamas "forgets" to mention a lot of things. They also insert their version of " the truth" wherever they think it will suit them best. Gee, who else do we know who is like that? :shock: :shock: :roll: :roll:


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

SQM said:


> I guess I can revisit the Ruth B. Ginsburg topic here. Obama has asked her to resign by November in case the Republicans get more seats. She is refusing. She is in her 80s and had cancer. What do you think?


Just wondering where you read that, SQM?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Here she is, darling Rith.or Ruth.


That's an interesting error you made, from the point of view of Yiddish. The two largest dialects of Yiddish differ in that one pronounces a u as a u and the other pronounces a u as an i or an ee. You've been spending too much time hanging out with Shifra.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> She's needed where she is. The cancer wasn't in her brain, and the righties hate because she speaks her mind.


Nobody hates her, PP. However, if one of the male justices said that the female justices had 'blind spots' when it came to men's issues, thereby invalidating women's opinions, the whole country would erupt in outrage over it.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Nobody hates her, PP. However, if one of the male justices said that the female justices had 'blind spots' when it came to men's issues, thereby invalidating women's opinions, the whole country would erupt in outrage over it.


Of course, because women have no blind spots and they're always right, doncha' know?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> That's an interesting error you made, from the point of view of Yiddish. The two largest dialects of Yiddish differ in that one pronounces a u as a u and the other pronounces a u as an i or an ee. You've been spending too much time hanging out with Shifra.


Actually, "Shifra" has a compromised immune system and our time together is only on the phone. I've seen her just once since Christmas.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

She didn't say "hate her". 
Females are faced with non-verbal messages about their lack of understanding and competancy every day in every way. 
Sadly, there is no outrage over it.



Gerslay said:


> Nobody hates her, PP. However, if one of the male justices said that the female justices had 'blind spots' when it came to men's issues, thereby invalidating women's opinions, the whole country would erupt in outrage over it.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Can we really picture Antonin Scalia containing his arrogance while he interacts with the female members of SCOTUS?


cookiequeen said:


> Of course, because women have no blind spots and they're always right, doncha' know?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> Just wondering where you read that, SQM?


Heard it somewhere on TV or radio.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> Can we really picture Antonin Scalia containing his arrogance while he interacts with the female members of SCOTUS?


Did hear on TV some years ago that Scalia is quite witty and charming at dinner parties.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

SQM said:


> Did hear on TV some years ago that Scalia is quite witty and charming at dinner parties.


You may have, I am sure he shines in the David Koch's dining room.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

SQM said:


> Heard it somewhere on TV or radio.


Couldn't find anything like the Prez saying that, I did find this.

http://wincountry.com/news/articles/2014/aug/01/us-justice-ginsburg-hits-back-at-liberals-who-want-her-to-retire/


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> You may have, I am sure he shines in the David Koch's dining room.


I don't think I would pass up a meal there. Remember my Evil Twin is a Republican.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

SQM said:


> I don't think I would pass up a meal there. Remember my Evil Twin is a Republican.


LOL, I would have to plead "I don't have a thing to wear!" I am afraid. Maybe I could do one of those trips to the store that ends with returning the dress the next day. 
I have read about people doing that. 
Nah, I think I will just pass, cuz I would probably regurgitate all over everything and have to keep the darned thing.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> LOL, I would have to plead "I don't have a thing to wear!" I am afraid. Maybe I could do one of those trips to the store that ends with returning the dress the next day.
> I have read about people doing that.
> Nah, I think I will just pass, cuz I would probably regurgitate all over everything and have to keep the darned thing.


My daughter rents designer dresses for events. There are online sites where you give your measurements and they post dresses to fit. So we can go to the Kochs' dinner party.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Democracy Now 
Wednesday, July 30, 2014

Henry Siegman, Leading Voice of U.S. Jewry, on Gaza: "A Slaughter of Innocents"

Given his background, what American Jewish leader Henry Siegman has to say about Israels founding in 1948 through the current assault on Gaza may surprise you. From 1978 to 1994, Siegman served as executive director of the American Jewish Congress, long described as one of the nations "big three" Jewish organizations along with the American Jewish Committee and the Anti-Defamation League. Born in Germany three years before the Nazis came to power in 1933, Siegmans family eventually moved to the United States. His father was a leader of the European Zionist movement that pushed for the creation of a Jewish state. In New York, Siegman studied the religion and was ordained as an Orthodox rabbi by Yeshiva Torah Vodaas, later becoming head of the Synagogue Council of America. After his time at the American Jewish Congress, Siegman became a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. He now serves as president of the U.S./Middle East Project. In the first of our two-part interview, Siegman discusses the assault on Gaza, the myths surrounding Israels founding in 1948, and his own background as a German-Jewish refugee who fled Nazi occupation to later become a leading American Jewish voice and now vocal critic of Israels policies in the Occupied Territories.

"When one thinks that this is what is necessary for Israel to survive, that the Zionist dream is based on the repeated slaughter of innocents on a scale that were watching these days on television, that is really a profound, profound crisis  and should be a profound crisis in the thinking of all of us who were committed to the establishment of the state and to its success," Siegman says. Responding to Israels U.S.-backed claim that its assault on Gaza is necessary because no country would tolerate the rocket fire from militants in Gaza, Siegman says: "What undermines this principle is that no country and no people would live the way that Gazans have been made to live.  The question of the morality of Israels action depends, in the first instance, on the question, couldnt Israel be doing something [to prevent] this disaster that is playing out now, in terms of the destruction of human life? Couldnt they have done something that did not require that cost? And the answer is, sure, they could have ended the occupation."

Click here to watch part 2 of this interview.

Transcript

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: As we continue our coverage of the Israeli offensive in Gaza, we spend the rest of the hour with Henry Siegman, the former executive director of the American Jewish Congress, long described as one of the nations "big three" Jewish organizations along with the American Jewish Committee and the Anti-Defamation League. Henry Siegman was born in 1930 in Frankfurt, Germany. Three years later, the Nazis came to power. After fleeing Nazi troops in Belgium, his family eventually moved to the United States. His father was a leader of the European Zionist movement, pushing for the creation of a Jewish state. In New York, Henry Siegman studied and was ordained as an Orthodox rabbi by Yeshiva Torah Vodaas. He later became head of the Synagogue Council of America. After his time at the American Jewish Congress, Siegman became a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. He now serves as president of the U.S./Middle East Project.

AMY GOODMAN: Over the years, Henry Siegman has become a vocal critic of Israels policies in the Occupied Territories and has urged Isral to engage with Hamas. He has called the Palestinian struggle for a state, quote, "the mirror image of the Zionist movement" that led to the founding of Israel in 1948. He recently wrote a piece for Politico headlined "Israel Provoked This War." Nermeen Shaikh and I sat down with him on Tuesday. I started by asking Henry Siegman if he could characterize the situation in Gaza at the moment.

HENRY SIEGMAN: Yes, its disastrous. Its disastrous, both in political terms, which is to say the situation cannot conceivably, certainly in the short run, lead to any positive results, to an improvement in the lives of either Israelis or Palestinians, and of course its disastrous in humanitarian terms, the kind of slaughter thats taking place there. When one thinks that this is what is necessary for Israel to survive, that the Zionist dream is based on the slaughter ofrepeated slaughter of innocents on a scale that were watching these days on television, that is really a profound, profound crisisand should be a profound crisisin the thinking of all of us who were committed to the establishment of the state and to its success. It leads one virtually to a whole rethinking of this historical phenomenon.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: What do you believeMr. Siegman, what do you believe the objectives of Israel are in this present assault on Gaza?

HENRY SIEGMAN: Well, they have several objectives, although Im not sure that each of them is specifically responsible for the carnage were seeing now. It has what seems on the surface a justifiable objective of ending these attacks, the rockets that come from Gaza and are aimedits hard to say theyre aimed at civilians, because they never seem to land anywhere that causes serious damage, but they could and would have, if not for luck. So, on the face of it, Israel has a right to do what its doing now, and, of course, its been affirmed by even president of the United States, repeatedly, that no country would agree to live with that kind of a threat repeatedly hanging over it.

But what he doesnt add, and what perverts this principle, undermines the principle, is that no country and no people would live the way Gazans have been made to live. And consequently, this moral equation which puts Israel on top as the victim that has to act to prevent its situation from continuing that way, and the Palestinians in Gaza, or Hamas, the organization responsible for Gaza, who are the attackers, our media rarely ever points out that these are people who have a right to live a decent, normal life, too. And they, too, must think, "What can we do to put an end to this?"

And this is why in the Politico article that you mentioned, I pointed out the question of the morality of Israels action depends, in the first instance, on the question: Couldnt Israel be doing something in preventing this disaster that is playing out now, in terms of the destruction of human lives? Couldnt they have done something that didnt require that cost? And the answer is: Sure, that they could have ended the occupation, with resultswhatever the risks are, they certainly arent greater than the price being paid now for Israels effort to continue and sustain permanently their relationship to the Palestinians.

AMY GOODMAN: When you say that Israel could end the violence by ending the occupation, Israel says it does not occupy Gaza, that it left years ago. I wanted to play a clip for you from MSNBC. It was last week, and the host, Joy Reid, was interviewing the Israeli spokesperson, Mark Regev.

MARK REGEV: Listen, if youll allow me to, I want to take issue with one important word you said. You said Israel is the occupying authority. Youre forgetting Israel pulled out of the Gaza Strip. We took down all the settlements, and the settlers who didnt want to leave, we forced them to leave. We pulled back to the 1967 international frontier. There is no Israeli occupation of the Gaza Strip. We havent been there for some eight years.

AMY GOODMAN: Henry Siegman, can you respond?

HENRY SIEGMAN: OK, yeah. That is of course utter nonsense, and for several reasons. First of all, Gaza is controlled completely, like the West Bank, because it is totally surrounded by Israel. Israel could not be imposing the kind of chokehold it has on Gaza if it were not surrounding, if its military were not surrounding Gaza, and not just on the territory, but also on the air, on the sea. No one there can make a move without coming into contact with the Israeli IDF, you know, outside this imprisoned area where Gazans live. So, theres no one I have encountered, who is involved with international law, whos ever suggested to me that in international law Gaza is not considered occupied. So thats sheer nonsense.

But theres another point triggered by your question to me, and this is the propaganda machine, and these official spokespeople will always tell you, "Take a look at what kind of people these are. Here we turned over Gaza to them. And youd think they would invest their energies in building up the area, making it a model government and model economy. Instead, theyre working on rockets." The implication here is that they, in effect, offered Palestinians a mini state, and they didnt take advantage of it, so the issue isnt really Palestinian statehood. That is the purpose of this kind of critique.

And I have always asked myself, and this has a great deal to do with my own changing views about the policies of governments, not about the Jewish state qua Jewish state, but of the policies pursued by Israeli governments and supportedyou know, they say Israel is a model democracy in the Middle East, so you must assumethe public has to assume some responsibility for what the government does, because they put governments in place. So, the question I ask myself: What if the situation were reversed? You know, there is a Talmudic saying in Pirkei Avot, The Ethics of the Fathers: "Al tadin et chavercha ad shetagiah lemekomo," "Dont judge your neighbor until you can imagine yourself in his place." So, my first question when I deal with any issue related to the Israeli-Palestinian issue: What if we were in their place?

What if the situation were reversed, and the Jewish population were locked into, were told, "Here, you have less than 2 percent of Palestine, so now behave. No more resistance. And let us deal with the rest"? Is there any Jew who would have said this is a reasonable proposition, that we cease our resistance, we cease our effort to establish a Jewish state, at least on one-half of Palestine, which is authorized by the U.N.? Nobody would agree to that. They would say this is absurd. So the expectations that Palestiniansand Im speaking now about the resistance as a concept; Im not talking about rockets, whether they were justified or not. Theyre not. I think that sending rockets that are going to kill civilians is a crime. But for Palestinians to try, in any way they can, to end this state of affairand to expect of them to end their struggle and just focus on less than 2 percent to build a country is absurd. That is part ofthats propaganda, but its not a discussion of either politics or morality.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: One of the things thats repeated most often is, the problem with the Palestinian unity government is, of course, that Hamas is now part of it, and Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by Israel and also by the United States. Id just like to read you a short quote from an article that you wrote in 2009 in the London Review of Books. You said, "Hamas is no more a 'terror organisation' ... than the Zionist movement was during its struggle for a Jewish homeland. In the late 1930s and 1940s, parties within the Zionist movement resorted to terrorist activities for strategic reasons." Could you elaborate on that and what you see as the parallels between the two?

HENRY SIEGMAN: Well, Im glad I said that. In fact, I repeated it in a letter to The New York Times the other day, a week or two ago. The fact is that Israel had, pre-statein its pre-state stage, several terrorist groups that did exactly what Hamas does today. I dont mean they sent rockets, but they killed innocent people. And they did that in an even more targeted way than these rockets do. Benny Morris published a book that is considered the Bible on that particular period, the war of

AMY GOODMAN: The Israeli historian.

HENRY SIEGMAN: Sorry?

AMY GOODMAN: The Israeli historian, Benny Morris.

HENRY SIEGMAN: The Israeli historian, right, then in the book Righteous Victims, in which he saidI recall, when I read it, I was shockedin which heparticularly in his most recently updated book, which was based on some new information that the Israels Defensethe IDF finally had to open up and publish, that Israeli generals received direct instructions from Ben-Gurion during the War of Independence to kill civilians, or line them up against the wall and shoot them, in order to help to encourage the exodus, that in fact resulted, of 700,000 Palestinians, who were driven out of theirleft their homes, and their towns and villages were destroyed. This was terror, even within not just the terrorist groups, the pre-state terrorists, but this is within the military, the Israeli military, that fought the War of Independence. And in this recent book, that has received so much public attention by Ariyou know, My Promised Land.

AMY GOODMAN: Shavit.

HENRY SIEGMAN: Ari Shavit. He describes several such incidents, too. And incidentally, one of the people whoaccording to Benny Morris, one of the people who received these ordersand they were oral orders, but he, in his book, describes why he believes that these orders were given, were given to none other than Rabin, who was not a general then, but heand that he executed these orders.

AMY GOODMAN: Meaning?

HENRY SIEGMAN: Meaning?

AMY GOODMAN: What did it mean that he executed these orders, Rabin?

HENRY SIEGMAN: That he executed civilians. And the rationale given for this when Shavit, some years ago, had an interview with Benny Morris and said to him, "My God, you are saying that there was deliberate ethnic cleansing here?" And Morris said, "Yes, there was." And he says, "And you justify it?" And he said, "Yes, because otherwise there would not have been a state." And Shavit did not follow up. And that was one of my turning points myself, when I saw that. He would not follow up and say, "Well, if that is a justification, the struggle for statehood, why cant Palestinians do that? Whats wrong with Hamas? Why are they demonized if they do what we did?"

AMY GOODMAN: I want to go to the Israeli prime minister earlier this month, Benjamin Netanyahu, vowing to punish those responsible for the killing of Mohammed Abu Khdeir, the Palestinian teen who was burned alive following the murders of three Israeli teens. But in doing so, Netanyahu drew a distinction between Israel and its neighbors in how it deals with, quote, "murderers."

PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU: I know that in our society, the society of Israel, there is no place for such murderers. And thats the difference between us and our neighbors. They consider murderers to be heroes. They name public squares after them. We dont. We condemn them, and we put them on trial, and well put them in prison.

AMY GOODMAN: That was Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu talking about the difference. Henry Siegman, can you respond?

HENRY SIEGMAN: Well, the only difference I can think of is that in Israel they made the heads of the two major pre-state terrorist groups prime ministers. So this distinction hes drawing is simply false; its not true. The heads of the two terrorist groups, which incidentally, again, going back to Benny Morris, in his book, Righteous Victims, he writes, in this pre-state account, that the targeting of civilians was started by the Jewish terrorist groups, and the Araband the Arab groups followed.

AMY GOODMAN: Youre talking about Irgun and the Stern Gang.

HENRY SIEGMAN: Yes, yes. And as you know, both the head of the Irgun and both the head of the Stern GangIm talking about Begin and Shamirbecame prime ministers of the state of Israel. And contrary to Netanyahu, public highways and streets are named after them.

AMY GOODMAN: Henry Siegman, former head of the American Jewish Congress. Well continue our conversation with him in a minute.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report, as we continue our conversation with Henry Siegman, president of the U.S./Middle East Project, former head of the American Jewish Congress. I interviewed him Tuesday with Nermeen Shaikh.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Id like to turn, Henry Siegman, to Khaled Meshaal, the leader of Hamas, who was speaking to Charlie Rose of PBS. He said Hamas was willing to coexist with Jews but said it would not live, quote, "with a state of occupiers."

KHALED MESHAAL: [translated] I am ready to coexist with the Jews, with the Christians, and with the Arabs and non-Arabs, and with those who agree with my ideas and also disagree with them; however, I do not coexist with the occupiers, with the settlers and those who put a siege on us.

CHARLIE ROSE: Its one thing to say you want to coexist with the Jews. Its another thing you want to coexist with the state of Israel. Do you want to coexist with the state of Israel? Do you want to representdo you want to recognize Israel as a Jewish state?

KHALED MESHAAL: [translated] No. I said I do not want to live with a state of occupiers.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: That was Khaled Meshaal, the leader of Hamas, speaking to Charlie Rose. Henry Siegman, could you respond to that, and specifically the claim made by Israelis repeatedly that they cant negotiate with a political organization that refuses the state of Israels right to exist in its present form?

HENRY SIEGMAN: Yes. It so happens that in both international custom and international law, political parties, like Hamas, are not required or even ever asked to recognize states, whether they recognize a state or not. The question is whether the government of which they are a part and that makes policy and executes policy, whether that government is prepared to recognize other states. And this is true in the case of Israel, as well, the government of Israel, any government. I, incidentally, discussed this with Meshaal, not once, but several times, face to face, and asked him whether he would be part of a government that recognizes the state of Israel, and he saysand he said, "Yes, provided"they had a provisohe said, "provided that the Palestinian public approves that policy." And he repeated to me the fact thathe said, "Youre absolutely right." He says, "People ask us will we recognize the state of Israel, and will we affirm that its legitimately a Jewish state." He said, "No, we wont do that. But we have never said that we will not serve in a government that has public support for that position, that we will not serve in such a government."

But a more important point to be made hereand this is why these distinctions are so dishonestthe state of Israel does not recognize a Palestinian state, which is to say there are parties in Netanyahus governmentvery important parties, not marginal partiesincluding his own, the Likud, that to this day has an official platform that does not recognize the right of Palestinians to have a state anywhere in Palestine. And, of course, you have Naftali Bennetts party, the HaBayit HaYehudi, which says this openly, that there will never be a state, a Palestinian state, anywhere in Palestine. Why hasnt our government or anyone said, "Like Hamas, if you have parties like that in your government, you are not a peace partner, and you are a terrorist group, if in fact you use violence to implement your policy, as Hamas does"? So the hypocrisy in the discussion that is taking place publicly is just mind-boggling.

AMY GOODMAN: Henry Siegman, youre the head, the former head, of one of the leading Jewish organizations, the American Jewish Congress.

HENRY SIEGMAN: Two of them, also of the Synagogue Council of America.

AMY GOODMAN: So, these are major establishment Jewish organizations. You said you went to see Khaled Meshaal, the head of Hamas, not once, but several times to meet with him. The U.S. government calls Hamas a terrorist organization. They will not communicate with them. They communicate with them through other parties, through other countries, to talk to them. Talk about your decision to meet with Khaled Meshaal, where you met with him, and the significance of your conversations.

HENRY SIEGMAN: Well, first of all, it should be noted that the U.S. has no such policy of not meeting with terrorist organizations. It has a policy of not meeting with Hamas. Thats quite different. Were very happy to meet with the Taliban and to negotiate with them. And they cut off hands and heads of people, and they kill girls who go to school. And that didnt prevent the United States from having negotiations with the Taliban, so thats nonsense that we dont talk to terrorist organizations. We talk to enemies if we want to cease the slaughter, and were happy to do so and to try to reach an agreement that puts an end to it. And why Hamas should be the exception, again, I find dishonest. And the only reason that we do that is in response to the pressures from AIPAC and, of course, Israels position. The largest caucus, parliamentary caucus, in Israels Knesset is called the caucus of Eretz Yisrael HaShlema, which the Likud leads.

AMY GOODMAN: Explain that in English, "the land of Israel."

HENRY SIEGMAN: An "eretz," in Englishin English, it means the whole land of Israel. This is a parliamentary caucus, the largest caucus in the Knesset, which is totally dedicated to not permit any government to establish a Palestinian state anywhere in the land of Israel, headed by Likud, senior Likud members of Knesset, and headeda party that is headed by the prime minister of Israel. And what boggles the imagination is that no one talks about this, no one points this out, and no one says, "How can you take these positions via Hamas if this is exactly what is going on within your own government that you are heading?"

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Henry Siegman, as you are far more familiar than most, the argument made by Israel and supporters of Israel is that what might be construed as a disproportionate response by Israel to Hamas has to do with the historical experience of the persecution of the Jews and, of course, the Holocaust. So how do you respond to those kinds of claims?

HENRY SIEGMAN: Well, I dont accept that at all, because the lesson from the persecutions would seem to meand certainly if you follow Jewish tradition, the lesson of those persecutions, we have always said, until the state of Israel came into being, is that you do not treat people in that kind of an inhumane and cruel way. And the hope always was that Israel would be a model democracy, but not just a democracy, but a state that would practice Jewish values, in terms of its humanitarian approach to these issues, its pursuit of justice and so on.

I have always felt that, for me, the Holocaust experience, which was important to me, since I lived two years under Nazi occupation, most of it running from place to place and in hidingI always thought that the important lesson of the Holocaust is not that there is evil, that there are evil people in this world who could do the most unimaginable, unimaginably cruel things. That was not the great lesson of the Holocaust. The great lesson of the Holocaust is that decent, cultured people, people we would otherwise consider good people, can allow such evil to prevail, that the German publicthese were not monsters, but it was OK with them that the Nazi machine did what it did. Now I draw no comparisons between the Nazi machine and Israeli policy. And what I resent most deeply is when people say, "How dare you invoke the Nazi experience?" The point isnt, you know, what exactly they did, but the point is the evidence that they gave that decent people can watch evil and do nothing about it. That is the most important lesson of the Holocaust, not the Hitlers and not the SS, but the public that allowed this to happen. And my deep disappointment is that the Israeli public, precisely because Israel is a democracy and cannot say, "Were not responsible what our leaders do," that the public puts these people back into office again and again.

AMY GOODMAN: You mentioned your experience as a Holocaust survivor. Could you just go into it a little more deeply? You were born in 1930 in Germany. And talk about the rise of the Nazis and how your family escaped.

HENRY SIEGMAN: Well, I dont consider myself a Holocaust survivor, in the sense that I was not in a concentration camp. But I lived under Nazi occupation. I was born in 1930, but the Nazis came to power inI think in 1933. And shortly thereafter, we lived in Germany at the time. My parents lived in Germany, in Frankfurt. And they left. My father decided to give up a very successful business and to move to Belgium then, and on the assumption that Belgium was safe, that we would be escaping the Nazis. But in 1940, the Germans invaded Belgium, and they invaded France. That was in early 1940, I believe. And so, its a long story, but for the nextfrom that point on until February 1942, when we arrived, finally arrived in the United States.

And how my father pulled that off is a miracle; to this day, I dont fully understand, because there were six children that he had to bring with him, and my mother, of course. We ran from place to place. First we were at Dunkirk, where the classic evacuation, memorable evacuation took place, and the French and the British soldiers withdrew to across the channel. We happened to find ourselves there at the time. And then we were sent back by thewhen the Nazi troops finally caught up with us in Dunkirk, they sent us back to Antwerp. And then my father had connections with the police chief, because of his business interests in Antwerp before the Nazis came. He was tipped off the morning that we were supposed to bethe Gestapo was supposed to come to our house to take all of us away. And so we just picked up, and we managed to get to Paris. And from Paris, we crossedwe were smuggled across the border into occupied Vichy France, and we were there for about a year, again without proper papers and in hiding. Then we tried to cross into Spain. And we did, but when we arrived at the Spanish border, they finally closed the border and sent us back into France.

So, then we managed to get a boat to take us from Marseille to North Africa, where we were interned briefly in a camp in North Africa. And then thewhat I believe was the last ship, a Portuguese, a neutral ship, taking refugees to the United States stopped in North Africa. We boarded that ship. And we were on the high seas for two months, because the Nazi subs were already busy sinking the ships that they encountered. So we had to go all the way around to avoid various Nazi submarine-infested areas.

So after two months on the high seas, we arrived in New York, where we were sent to Ellis Island, which was full of Bundists, who had been German Bundists, who were arrested and were being sent back to Germany. But as we walked into Ellis Island into that hallway, something I will never forget, "Were in America at last!" And those Bundists were greeting each other in the hallway, "Heil Hitler!" So the "Heil Hitlers" that we were trying to escape in Europe was the first thing we encountered as we landed on Ellis Island.

AMY GOODMAN: And how did you end up becoming head of one of the countrysor, as you said, countrys two major Jewish organizations? And what was your position on Zionism after World War II?

HENRY SIEGMAN: Well, my father was one of the leaders of European Zionism. He was the head of the Mizrachi in the religious Zionist movement, not just in Belgium, but in Western Europe. And the leaders, the heads, the founders of the Mizrachimayor of Berlin himself, Gold, many otherswere guests in our house in Antwerp. And they used to take me on their knees and teach me Hebrew songs from Israel. So, I hadI was raised on mothers milk, and I was an ardentas a kid even, an ardent Zionist. I recall on the ship coming over, we were coming to America, and I was writing poetry and songsI was 10 years old, 11 years oldabout the blue sky of Palestine. In those days we referred to it as Palestina, Palestine.

And so, into adulthood, not until well after the 67 War, when I came acrossand I got to know Rabin and others, and I came across a discussion in which I was told by Israelis, by the Israeli people who I was talking to, government, senior government people, that they had an initiative from Sadat about peace and withdrawal and so on. And Rabin said, "But clearly, the Israeli public is not prepared for that now." And that hit me like a hammer. I always had this notion drilled into me that if only the Arabs were to reach out and be willing to live in peace with Israel, that would be the time of the Messiah. And the Messiah came, and the Israeli leadership said, "No, public opinion is not ready for that." And I wrote a piece then in Moment magazineif you recall, it was published by Leonard Feinand he made it a cover story, and the title was, "For the Sake of Zion, I Will Not Remain Silent." And that triggered my re-examination of things I had been told and what was going on on the ground.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Prior to that, your sense had always been that if the Arabs reached out, there would be two states: Palestine and Israel.

HENRY SIEGMAN: I had no doubt about that. I mean, that was, you know, just a given, that we are sharing. The resolution said, you know, two states. The resolution, which Israelthe partition resolution, which Israel invoked in its Declaration of Independence, planted, rooted its legitimacy in thatit cited the Palestinianthe partition plan. But when someone these days says, "But theres a partition plan that said that the rest of it, that was not assigned to Israel, is the legitimate patrimony of the Palestinian people," the answer given is, "Ah, yeah, but they voted they would not accept it, and the partition plan was never officially adopted." Well, why are you quoting it then in your Declaration of Independence, if you consider it to be null and void and notanyway.

AMY GOODMAN: And the response ofor the slogan, the idea that was put forward so much in the founding of the state of Israel: Palestine is a land without people for a people without land?

HENRY SIEGMAN: Well, that was the common understanding and referred to repeatedly in Ari Shavits book and others, that the Zionist movement, at its very birth, was founded on an untruth, on a myth, that Palestine was a country without a people. And as he says, obviouslyand he recognizes in his book that it was a lie. And therefore, from the very beginning, Zionism didnt confront this profound moral dilemma that lay at its very heart. How do you deal with that reality? And as a consequence of that, one of the ways in which they dealt with it was to see to the expulsion of 700,000 people from their cities, from their towns and villages, and the destruction of all of them, which, to his credit, Ari Shavit writes about very painfully and honestly.

AMY GOODMAN: Henry Siegman, president of the U.S./Middle East Project. Hes the former executive director of the American Jewish Congress as well as the Synagogue Council of America. He recently wrote a piece for Politico headlined "Israel Provoked This War." Well link to it at democracynow.org. Tune in tomorrow for part two of our conversation with Henry Siegman, where he talks about U.S. support for Israel and U.S. media coverage.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitanon said:


> She didn't say "hate her".
> Females are faced with non-verbal messages about their lack of understanding and competency every day in every way.
> Sadly, there is no outrage over it.


I tried to say "hate her" but left one word out.

LTL described Ginsburg's dissent from the Hobby Lobby opinion as "ranting" or maybe "raving." She much preferred Clarence Thomas's deaf, dumb, and blind show, which she thought was professional, even though apparently he sleeps during arguments. Since she's rarely original in her opinions, I assumed it was a right-wing thing to hate Ginsburg.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

That could be, makes sense to me. 


Poor Purl said:


> I tried to say "hate her" but left one word out.
> 
> LTL described Ginsburg's dissent from the Hobby Lobby opinion as "ranting" or maybe "raving." She much preferred Clarence Thomas's deaf, dumb, and blind show, which she thought was professional, even though apparently he sleeps during arguments. Since she's rarely original in her opinions, I assumed it was a right-wing thing to hate Ginsburg.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> That could be, makes sense to me.


In the mean time I can't help but wonder if Peace Goddess is a long lost cousin to JoeySomma.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitanon said:


> In the mean time I can't help but wonder if Peace Goddess is a long lost cousin to JoeySomma.


No, no, a thousand times no. Peacegoddess is following a common Liberal line - that the underdog is by definition the side we support. Joey probably just wants the Rapture. That means get the Arabs out of Israel and the Jews in. All of them - us, I guess. I'm not giving up my apartment for no Rapture.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Granted it is difficult to keep it straight. Sometimes WHO says it tells you more than WHAT they say. IMO



Poor Purl said:


> No, no, a thousand times no. Peacegoddess is following a common Liberal line - that the underdog is by definition the side we support. Joey probably just wants the Rapture. That means get the Arabs out of Israel and the Jews in. All of them - us, I guess. I'm not giving up my apartment for no Rapture.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> No, no, a thousand times no. Peacegoddess is following a common Liberal line - that the underdog is by definition the side we support. Joey probably just wants the Rapture. That means get the Arabs out of Israel and the Jews in. All of them - us, I guess. I'm not giving up my apartment for no Rapture.


I don't remember now what made me say that. But yes, the Palestinians are very much seen as the underdog while disregarding their history, or at least their history as told by mid 20th Century current events writers.
Ohoh, I just remembered, that comment lay on it's own for so long the intent slipped my mind. 
It was simply about the cut and paste, cut and paste, no other comment to share postings.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitanon said:


> I don't remember now what made me say that. But yes, the Palestinians are very much seen as the underdog while disregarding their history, or at least their history as told by mid 20th Century current events writers.
> Ohoh, I just remembered, that comment lay on it's own for so long the intent slipped my mind.
> It was simply about the cut and paste, cut and paste, no other comment to share postings.


Yes, it's old. Since I'm no longer following WOW or NB, I have to look around for where else I can make trouble. (Please, whoever is reading this, that was a joke. Don't report me to KPG so she comes over here to call me names.)

Okay, it's the cut and paste. I do that sometimes, too, but my paste jobs are usually funnier.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Granted it is difficult to keep it straight. Sometimes WHO says it tells you more than WHAT they say. IMO


Not just "sometimes." I'd say most of the time.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Yes, it's old. Since I'm no longer following WOW or NB, I have to look around for where else I can make trouble. (Please, whoever is reading this, that was a joke. Don't report me to KPG so she comes over here to call me names.)
> 
> Okay, it's the cut and paste. I do that sometimes, too, but my paste jobs are usually funnier.


That's why I like a teaser and a link. My brain turns off after about 10 lines of text with no break.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> That's why I like a teaser and a link. My brain turns off after about 10 lines of text with no break.


Miss ya both. Come back to Bridges. a guy who might dislike us from D and P, has opened up a prayer thread. It seems like it is interfaith, so I am going to take a look. A very surprising gesture but the thread might be very philosophical. Gonna look right now.

Won't you come home, Bill Bailey......


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> Miss ya both. Come back to Bridges. a guy who might dislike us from D and P, has opened up a prayer thread. It seems like it is interfaith, so I am going to take a look. A very surprising gesture but the thread might be very philosophical. Gonna look right now.
> 
> Won't you come home, Bill Bailey......


Do you have a link to the prayer topic?


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

SQM said:


> Miss ya both. Come back to Bridges. a guy who might dislike us from D and P, has opened up a prayer thread. It seems like it is interfaith, so I am going to take a look. A very surprising gesture but the thread might be very philosophical. Gonna look right now.
> 
> Won't you come home, Bill Bailey......


I saw Karverr on there, I think that he is related to wombat's evil twin. No thanks.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Do you have a link to the prayer topic?


Named: Prayer List


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Miss ya both. Come back to Bridges. a guy who might dislike us from D and P, has opened up a prayer thread. It seems like it is interfaith, so I am going to take a look. A very surprising gesture but the thread might be very philosophical. Gonna look right now.
> 
> Won't you come home, Bill Bailey......


From D&P? Philosophical??


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> From D&P? Philosophical??


SQM does not have our experience with Karverr and maybe not with that awful thread about his reaction to his lesbian daughter.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitanon said:


> That's why I like a teaser and a link. My brain turns off after about 10 lines of text with no break.


Here's one to a column that destroys the notion that poor people are in charge of their own destinies and poverty is the result of bad life choices. It also gives insight into the kinds of people who have those notions.

***************************************************************

*Is a Hard Life Inherited?*
Nicholas Kristof

ONE delusion common among Americas successful people is that they triumphed just because of hard work and intelligence.

In fact, their big break came when they were conceived in middle-class American families who loved them, read them stories, and nurtured them with Little League sports, library cards and music lessons. They were programmed for success by the time they were zygotes.

Yet many are oblivious of their own advantages, and of other peoples disadvantages. *The result is a meanspiritedness in the political world or, at best, a lack of empathy toward those struggling  partly explaining the hostility to state expansion of Medicaid, to long-term unemployment benefits, or to raising the minimum wage to keep up with inflation.*

This has been on my mind because Ive been visiting my hometown of Yamhill, Ore., a farming community thats a window into the national crisis facing working-class men.

See the whole column at http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/10/opinion/sunday/nicholas-kristof-is-a-hard-life-inherited.html?&hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region®ion=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region&_r=1


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> SQM does not have our experience with Karverr and maybe not with that awful thread about his reaction to his lesbian daughter.


Tres vrai. I only 'met' him in the spring and I am not on D and P much.

Sad that people will choose faith before offspring. But this happens in all fundamental religions. Still I am glad I missed that thread. I would have been tossed by Ostrich, I am sure.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitanon said:


> SQM does not have our experience with Karverr and maybe not with that awful thread about his reaction to his lesbian daughter.


Okay, maybe that's it.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Okay, maybe that's it.


Yes indeedy! That is it.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Yes, it's old. Since I'm no longer following WOW or NB, I have to look around for where else I can make trouble. (Please, whoever is reading this, that was a joke. Don't report me to KPG so she comes over here to call me names.)
> 
> Okay, it's the cut and paste. I do that sometimes, too, but my paste jobs are usually funnier.


Purl, we miss you on NB. Please think about dropping by at least once in awhile.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Purl, we miss you on NB. Please think about dropping by at least once in awhile.


That's very sweet of you, Designer. Right now I need a bit of a rest.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Didn't you miss me?



SQM said:


> Miss ya both. Come back to Bridges. a guy who might dislike us from D and P, has opened up a prayer thread. It seems like it is interfaith, so I am going to take a look. A very surprising gesture but the thread might be very philosophical. Gonna look right now.
> 
> Won't you come home, Bill Bailey......


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> No, no, a thousand times no. Peacegoddess is following a common Liberal line - that the underdog is by definition the side we support. Joey probably just wants the Rapture. That means get the Arabs out of Israel and the Jews in. All of them - us, I guess. I'm not giving up my apartment for no Rapture.


I think you do not know what I believe about you and others and the so called liberal line. I do not necessarily define you or very many other posters here as liberals..more like you are closer (as I have said times before) to centrists just like the president which has more in common with liberal republicans than progressives.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm with Purl. Not my style at all.



Poor Purl said:


> From D&P? Philosophical??


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Here's one to a column that destroys the notion that poor people are in charge of their own destinies and poverty is the result of bad life choices. It also gives insight into the kinds of people who have those notions.
> 
> ***************************************************************
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knitanon said:


> I don't remember now what made me say that. But yes, the Palestinians are very much seen as the underdog while disregarding their history, or at least their history as told by mid 20th Century current events writers.
> Ohoh, I just remembered, that comment lay on it's own for so long the intent slipped my mind.
> It was simply about the cut and paste, cut and paste, no other comment to share postings.


What history is being disregarded and by whom? The one where Palestinians lived in Palestine way before 1948?


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> What history is being disregarded and by whom? The one where Palestinians lived in Palestine way before 1948?


Sorry, if you want to get into a twisted pissing match about Middle Eastern history you need to find another dancing partner.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> I think you do not know what I believe about you and others and the so called liberal line. I do not necessarily define you or very many other posters here as liberals..more like you are closer (as I have said times before) to centrists just like the president which has more in common with liberal republicans than progressives.


Nobody asked you to define anyone. You should, however, read what is on the page and not what you believe someone is going to say.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> Didn't you miss me?


I did miss you but I was afraid to post to you because it looks like you are blowing your head off.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> What history is being disregarded and by whom? The one where Palestinians lived in Palestine way before 1948?


The Arabs threw Jews out of their countries in 1948. Collateral damage in all wars.

Anyway ISIS is certainly more of a present danger than anything else.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I accept your perception. I'm around.



SQM said:


> I did miss you but I was afraid to post to you because it looks like you are blowing your head off.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> I think you do not know what I believe about you and others and the so called liberal line. I do not necessarily define you or very many other posters here as liberals..more like you are closer (as I have said times before) to centrists just like the president which has more in common with liberal republicans than progressives.


You're not exactly right about me, but you are right that I shouldn't have tried to define you at all. Where I veer from Liberalism is on the subject of Israel - I can't be neutral because I have too much family living there. What I said about you was said mainly to show how different you are from Joey, but I think anybody with eyes could see that.

I'm nowhere near as centrist as Obama, which is why I didn't vote for him last time. I'm still waiting for Guantanamo to be closed; I still think we need a single-payer system for medical insurance, I don't think even $15 an hour is a living wage, and now, with food prices going up every minute, it will be clear to everyone.

But you're welcome to call me whatever you want - it's got to be better than what others have called me, simply because you're sane.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'm with Purl. Not my style at all.


I can't even imagine "D&P" on the same page as "philosophical."


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> What history is being disregarded and by whom? The one where Palestinians lived in Palestine way before 1948?


As did Jews. I have friends whose grandparents were born in that country, whatever its name, in the 19th century, and they're pretty sure that was not the first generation of their family to live there.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Talking current events, look at this. It's disgusting:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/the-photo-that-will-shock-the-world-jihadist-khaled-sharroufs-son-7-holds-severed-head/story-fni0cx12-1227019897582?nk=73a62ecf817ce73ad85c232b7086395c

Things have surely changed. We're going backwards in humanity. The world will never be the same again because of this heinous development. I'm ashamed that the perpetrator of this vile and criminal act (those words appropriately attributed this time), was born and bred in Australia, as were his children.

The Australian Muslim community denounce this, of course, stating that these people are "thugs and criminals" who have no business claiming they are followers of Islam.

I'm very concerned about this. I believe there are cells of these idiots already in Australia and it's only a matter of time that an incident similar to 9/11 will happen here.

I want to stress that I believe that the greater Muslim community in Australia are peace loving people. I think it's wrong to assume that all Muslims are radicalized.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Talking current events, look at this. It's disgusting:
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/the-photo-that-will-shock-the-world-jihadist-khaled-sharroufs-son-7-holds-severed-head/story-fni0cx12-1227019897582?nk=73a62ecf817ce73ad85c232b7086395c


How horrible that is. That any parent, of any religious persuasion, should do that to his child, and be proud of it, is beyond my understanding. And it couldn't be the first time the kid's seen a severed head, because he would have been traumatized if he were unused to it.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> How horrible that is. That any parent, of any religious persuasion, should do that to his child, and be proud of it, is beyond my understanding. And it couldn't be the first time the kid's seen a severed head, because he would have been traumatized if he were unused to it.


Absolutely. Just like the 'white pride' movement. To ensure future adherence to their principles, they indoctrinate their children. It's simply child abuse and these people need to be charged, found guilty and imprisoned for a very long time.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Absolutely. Just like the 'white pride' movement. To ensure future adherence to their principles, they indoctrinate their children. It's simply child abuse and these people need to be charged, found guilty and imprisoned for a very long time.


Most religions depend on indoctrination of children for future members, but we can't round them all up (regardless of how much some would like to). It's the particularly gruesome way this boy was treated that makes it especially bad.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

*Antisemitism on rise across Europe 'in worst times since the Nazis'*

_Experts say attacks go beyond Israel-Palestinian conflict as hate crimes strike fear into Jewish communities_

In the space of just one week last month, according to Crif, the umbrella group for France's Jewish organisations, eight synagogues were attacked. One, in the Paris suburb of Sarcelles, was firebombed by a 400-strong mob. A kosher supermarket and pharmacy were smashed and looted; the crowd's chants and banners included "Death to Jews" and "Slit Jews' throats". That same weekend, in the Barbes neighbourhood of the capital, stone-throwing protesters burned Israeli flags: "Israhell", read one banner.

In Germany last month, molotov cocktails were lobbed into the Bergische synagogue in Wuppertal  previously destroyed on Kristallnacht  and a Berlin imam, Abu Bilal Ismail, called on Allah to "destroy the Zionist Jews  Count them and kill them, to the very last one." Bottles were thrown through the window of an antisemitism campaigner in Frankfurt; an elderly Jewish man was beaten up at a pro-Israel rally in Hamburg; an Orthodox Jewish teenager punched in the face in Berlin. In several cities, chants at pro-Palestinian protests compared Israel's actions to the Holocaust; other notable slogans included: "Jew, coward pig, come out and fight alone," and "Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas."

_The rest of this article from The Guardian can be seen at:_
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/07/antisemitism-rise-europe-worst-since-nazis


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> As did Jews. I have friends whose grandparents were born in that country, whatever its name, in the 19th century, and they're pretty sure that was not the first generation of their family to live there.


It was NOt a Jewish state before 1948 and the number of Palestinians living there far outnumbered Jews. You along with nice so called political liberals are on the wrong side of the moral issue and history. The anti Jewish sentiments and outrageous actions in France, Rome and other parts of the world right now are perpetuated by thugs that are capitalizing on an anti Israel government and are just as against all semetic peoples as they are against Jews.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> It was NOt a Jewish state before 1948 and the number of Palestinians living there far outnumbered Jews. You along with nice so called political liberals are on the wrong side of the moral issue and history. The anti Jewish sentiments and outrageous actions in France, Rome and other parts of the world right now are perpetuated by thugs that are capitalizing on an anti Israel government and are just as against all semetic peoples as they are against Jews.


Nobody said it was a Jewish state. Now you know why you have no dance partner in me. Please go back to strict cut and paste, you made more sense.


----------



## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knitanon said:


> Nobody said it was a Jewish state. Now you know why you have no dance partner in me. Please go back to strict cut and paste, you made more sense.


I did not ask you to dance, but I believe you might make more sense by taking off your blinders and realizing that an occupation and blockade is the wrong way to deal with Palestine.


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## jbandsma (Mar 6, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Some topics are very close to our hearts and therefore we do tend to become a little heated.
> 
> I do not know if you saw the latest video posted by PETA, supposedly showing conditions in Australian shearing sheds. The thread is entitled 'has anyone seen this'. People who are not familiar with the operations in an Australian Shearing shed believe that the video portrays conditions in the majority of Australian Shearing Sheds. It is a propaganda video produced by PETA and definitely does not portray the working conditions in the shearing shed. It is hard to debunk this video without appearing to be attacking other posters.


I know what you mean. PETA "produced" a video about a monastery in this area that supported itself selling eggs. They got somebody to go in for a 'retreat'...carrying a video camera, etc. When they didn't find what they were looking for, they did a video of a really nasty chicken farm down the road. When that came out they had supporters outside the monastery day and night shouting, screaming, doing everything they could to upset the monastic life. The monks had to give up their chickens, and their means of support, in order to be able to pray in peace.

The guy who made the video of the chickens later had to admit that it wasn't made at the abbey. If PETA really wanted to do something decent they could have tackled the hunt club across the road from the abbey...the one that raised animals specifically for canned hunts.

I guess it's a lot easier to attack people who will face you with empty hands and peaceful words than bother those who carry guns.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> I did not ask you to dance, but I believe you might make more sense by taking off your blinders and realizing that an occupation and blockade is the wrong way to deal with Palestine.


Nobody making those decisions has asked my advice, just as I doubt that anyone who was silly enough to support Hamas' position within Palestinian territories asks for yours. 
This is not an all or nothing situation. 
I see both sides, it is shame that others cannot say the same.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

I am not, as most on this thread know, a cut and paste responder. However on the issue of Israel government actions vs Palestine I have pasted numerous discussions from Democracy Now as an alternate source for information and opinions. 
This is an emotional issue and I think other sources can provide thoughtful ways of looking at our close held beliefs.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

It's not like PETA is alone in that . 
Breitbart's organization is the same. We don't know now what reports are true and not. 
People ruined a wonderful organization like ACORN. 
When I watched one of the reports out of Iraq, it made me so sad to think that those reports might be like stories out of Kuwait in the 90s.



jbandsma said:


> I know what you mean. PETA "produced" a video about a monastery in this area that supported itself selling eggs. They got somebody to go in for a 'retreat'...carrying a video camera, etc. When they didn't find what they were looking for, they did a video of a really nasty chicken farm down the road. When that came out they had supporters outside the monastery day and night shouting, screaming, doing everything they could to upset the monastic life. The monks had to give up their chickens, and their means of support, in order to be able to pray in peace.
> 
> The guy who made the video of the chickens later had to admit that it wasn't made at the abbey. If PETA really wanted to do something decent they could have tackled the hunt club across the road from the abbey...the one that raised animals specifically for canned hunts.
> 
> I guess it's a lot easier to attack people who will face you with empty hands and peaceful words than bother those who carry guns.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> *Antisemitism on rise across Europe 'in worst times since the Nazis'*
> 
> _Experts say attacks go beyond Israel-Palestinian conflict as hate crimes strike fear into Jewish communities_
> 
> ...


This just confirms to me that humanity truly is on a downward spiral. It's so frightening. Are we heading towards another holocaust like catastrophe I wonder? In what form will it take, where will it happen? As to the people it will affect I believe that will be all of us.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> I did not ask you to dance, but I believe you might make more sense by taking off your blinders and realizing that an occupation and blockade is the wrong way to deal with Palestine.


What is the right way? Israel gave back Gaza and the thanks they got were missiles. The Arabs have a glitch - they also kill off each other. If missiles were dropped over San Fran what would you do? Sadly the innocent everyday people get the short end of the stick when their government consists of terrorists. And I would like to add that my great uncles moved to Palestine at the turn of the 20th century so Jews were indeed living there also.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> It was NOt a Jewish state before 1948 and the number of Palestinians living there far outnumbered Jews. You along with nice so called political liberals are on the wrong side of the moral issue and history. The anti Jewish sentiments and outrageous actions in France, Rome and other parts of the world right now are perpetuated by thugs that are capitalizing on an anti Israel government and are just as against all semetic peoples as they are against Jews.


You're wrong about the last sentence. Many of those actions have been instigated by Muslims.

Nobody said it was a Jewish state before 1948, though it had been 2,000 years earlier. The fact that more powerful nations, like Greece and Rome, kept exiling the Jews from the land does NOT remove the ties between the people and its land. If you believe that about the Palestinians vis-a-vis Israel, why not the Israelites vis-a-vis all those other nations that kept trying to exile them?

Why didn't the surrounding Arab countries like Jordan and Egypt allow the Palestinians to assimilate, but kept them in camps from 1948 until 1967 and even later? Because they knew what would happen to them if Palestinians were allowed to move freely: what has happened in Israel!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> I did not ask you to dance, but I believe you might make more sense by taking off your blinders and realizing that an occupation and blockade is the wrong way to deal with Palestine.


I'd like to cut in and ask what else you would do with people who refuse to talk, who don't keep their word on the rare occasions they do, and who continually threaten to drive you to the sea (and seem to be constantly tying to carry out their threat). Do as they ask? March quietly into the Mediterranean and hope that God will part it for you?

What's really going on is that Hamas has way better PR people than Netanyahu, and people like you believe their rhetoric. Neither side here is right, but only one side stubbornly refuses to even consider any change.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

brava to PP .


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

jbandsma said:


> I know what you mean. PETA "produced" a video about a monastery in this area that supported itself selling eggs. They got somebody to go in for a 'retreat'...carrying a video camera, etc. When they didn't find what they were looking for, they did a video of a really nasty chicken farm down the road. When that came out they had supporters outside the monastery day and night shouting, screaming, doing everything they could to upset the monastic life. The monks had to give up their chickens, and their means of support, in order to be able to pray in peace.
> 
> The guy who made the video of the chickens later had to admit that it wasn't made at the abbey. If PETA really wanted to do something decent they could have tackled the hunt club across the road from the abbey...the one that raised animals specifically for canned hunts.
> 
> I guess it's a lot easier to attack people who will face you with empty hands and peaceful words than bother those who carry guns.


I had no idea this was going on. Apparently faked videos work really well; they certainly did against ACORN. I always thought that PETA was a little screwy but not that it was a fraud.

People for the Unethical Sabotaging of Humans - PUSH?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> This just confirms to me that humanity truly is on a downward spiral. It's so frightening. Are we heading towards another holocaust like catastrophe I wonder? In what form will it take, where will it happen? As to the people it will affect I believe that will be all of us.


I hope you people down under have room for another 6,000,000. We here don't, and anyway we don't cotton to furriners.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You're wrong about the last sentence. Many of those actions have been instigated by Muslims.
> 
> Nobody said it was a Jewish state before 1948, though it had been 2,000 years earlier. The fact that more powerful nations, like Greece and Rome, kept exiling the Jews from the land does NOT remove the ties between the people and its land. If you believe that about the Palestinians vis-a-vis Israel, why not the Israelites vis-a-vis all those other nations that kept trying to exile them?
> 
> Why didn't the surrounding Arab countries like Jordan and Egypt allow the Palestinians to assimilate, but kept them in camps from 1948 until 1967 and even later? Because they knew what would happen to them if Palestinians were allowed to move freely: what has happened in Israel!


Let me recommend Barbara Tuchman's Bible and Sword that gives an excellent view of the history of Britain's real and religious relationship to Israel and gives an in-depth look at the development of Israel as it was formed from 1948-1956. It takes the 2000 year view in an interesting way. I know I'm going to be reading it again soon.

Over time, I've come to see Islam as a rebellion against both Judaism and Christianity. It is the youngest of the three religions, and takes its believers to a different end than either of the older religions, rejecting certain beliefs of both the older religions. It seems to have a strong element of pointing disapproving fingers at elements of the two older religions, and saying, "No, those guys got this stuff wrong. Here's what everyone should really believe. (And, by the way, if )you don't convert to Islam either Allah or we will kill you..." Sorry if I'm not saying this very well.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Absolutely. Just like the 'white pride' movement. To ensure future adherence to their principles, they indoctrinate their children. It's simply child abuse and these people need to be charged, found guilty and imprisoned for a very long time.


I couldn't look beyond the picture of proud papa and son without the head in it. No scrolling down or playing the video for this MIB.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> I did not ask you to dance, but I believe you might make more sense by taking off your blinders and realizing that an occupation and blockade is the wrong way to deal with Palestine.


Is there any way to deal with a region where most of the people are semitic, live in various countries whose borders have tap-danced around for a couple of thousand years and who have exclusionary religious and political views?


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

SQM said:


> What is the right way? Israel gave back Gaza and the thanks they got were missiles. The Arabs have a glitch - they also kill off each other. If missiles were dropped over San Fran what would you do? Sadly the innocent everyday people get the short end of the stick when their government consists of terrorists. And I would like to add that my great uncles moved to Palestine at the turn of the 20th century so Jews were indeed living there also.


What do you think a blockade and an occupation do to a people? I did not say Jews were not living in Palestine, but they were not the majority population and it was Palestine, not Israel.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

So how do you solve a millennia old problem ? 

If California was being shelled by Mexico, what do you imagine California would do? Blockades and occupations would be the least of it. 

The Arabs want to kill the Israelis. I have asked these questions before:

What would the Arabs do if Israel disarmed?
What would the Israelis do if the Arabs disarmed?

What has happened in the Middle East has happened here. The Europeans were a minority here but that did not stop them from committing genocide. Sadly it is the way of humans.

Why don't you change your sights to ISIS? Kvetch about that.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Let me recommend Barbara Tuchman's Bible and Sword that gives an excellent view of the history of Britain's real and religious relationship to Israel and gives an in-depth look at the development of Israel as it was formed from 1948-1956. It takes the 2000 year view in an interesting way. I know I'm going to be reading it again soon.
> 
> Over time, I've come to see Islam as a rebellion against both Judaism and Christianity. It is the youngest of the three religions, and takes its believers to a different end than either of the older religions, rejecting certain beliefs of both the older religions. It seems to have a strong element of pointing disapproving fingers at elements of the two older religions, and saying, "No, those guys got this stuff wrong. Here's what everyone should really believe. (And, by the way, if )you don't convert to Islam either Allah or we will kill you..." Sorry if I'm not saying this very well.


I think you said it clearly and very well. I'm going to get the book and read it before summer ends. Thanks for your input.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

More copy and paste, but easy to read:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-harris/to-the-weekend-protesters_b_5666015.html?msource=DHB081014

*To the Weekend Protesters*

This weekend, there have been large protests on the streets of London, Cape Town, and Santiago, and smaller demonstrations in Paris and New York.

Were they marching in support of the tens of thousands of Yazidis and Christians in Iraq who face imminent murder and starvation on a mountaintop at the hands of the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS)?

Were they marching in support of the non-Muslims in the path of ISIS, who are confronted with a hauntingly similar edict to what Russian Jews faced under Czar Alexander III, namely, one-third will convert, one-third will be compelled to emigrate, and one-third will be killed?

Were they marching in support of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi Christians who've already been forced by ISIS from their ancestral homes in cities like Mosul, including those who were reportedly beheaded and crucified?

Or were they perhaps marching in support of the beleaguered Syrians?

Were they marching in support of an end to the Assad regime's campaign, begun over three years ago, that has resulted in as many as 170,000 fatalities - and counting?

Were they marching in support of the millions of Syrians living today as refugees outside their country or as internally displaced persons?

Were they marching in support of naming and shaming those countries that stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Syria in this murderous rampage, from Iran to Venezuela?

Or were they perhaps marching in support of human rights victims in Iran?

Were they marching in support of minors awaiting capital punishment in Iranian prisons?

Were they marching in support of those millions of Iranians who yearn for freedom, but have been brutally suppressed since they took to the streets in protest in 2009?

Were they marching to demand an end to Iran's support for global terrorism, and the extradition to Argentina of those Iranians on Interpol's list linked to the attack in Buenos Aires 20 years ago that killed 85 people?

Or were they perhaps marching for a real Arab Spring?

Were they marching for an end to female genital mutilation, full legal rights, and equal educational and career opportunities for women in the Arab world?

Were they marching for gays to live as they wish, and not to be hounded, persecuted, and arrested?

Were they marching for religious minorities to live free of fear, and for individuals to choose their religion without running the risk of the "crime" of apostasy?

Or were they perhaps marching in support of the victims in Sudan?

Were they marching for the estimated 500,000 people from Darfur displaced this year alone by the ongoing Sudanese offensive?

Were they marching to demand that the Sudanese president, wanted by the International Criminal Court on charges of genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity, give himself up?

Or were they perhaps marching in support of Ukraine?

Were they marching to defend Ukraine's territorial integrity and right to determine its own destiny?

Were they marching to tell Moscow to stay out of Ukraine, and to stop providing deadly weapons that shoot down passenger planes and destabilize a big chunk of the country?

Or were they perhaps marching in support of Israel, the one democratic nation in the Middle East?

Were they marching to demand that Hamas end its firing of thousands of rockets, putting at risk millions of Israeli citizens, and that Hamas revise its charter calling for the annihilation of Israel and espousing anti-Semitism?

Were they marching to insist that Hamas use imported cement and other items for civilian infrastructure rather than the construction of infiltration tunnels to wreak havoc in Israel?

Were they marching to expose Hamas's use of civilians, including children, as human shields, and to demand that civilians be protected, not exploited as "protectors"?

Were they marching to remind the world that Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, giving it the first chance ever to govern itself, and that Israel's only goal in respect to Gaza is a quiet border, something unattainable until now?

No, these protesters in London, Cape Town, Santiago, Paris, and New York weren't doing anything of the sort.

They weren't uttering a word about any of these timely and gross violations of human rights and human dignity.

Their outrage is highly selective. It's only awakened if Israel is involved, even if it's defensive action on Israel's part. Nothing else seems to trouble them.

Their response is to suggest that people like me are just trying to divert attention from what's going on in Gaza. Rubbish!

To be clear, what's happening in Gaza is tragic, but the responsibility for it must be laid, first and foremost, at the doorstep of Hamas. To do otherwise is to ignore the obvious truth.

Is it too much to ask the protesters why only Israel leads them to the streets?

Is it because they believe in Hamas and its genocidal charter?

Is it because they want Israel to disappear from the world's map?

Is it because it's one thing if, say, Muslims do the killing - that's no reason to get upset - but entirely different if Jews dare to defend themselves against those who wish to destroy them?

One thing we do know: It's not genuine concern for human rights that leads these protesters to the streets of London, Cape Town, and Santiago.

If it were, they'd be protesting a lot more right now, beginning with the dire fate of the Yazidis and Christians in Iraq, the unspeakable tragedy in Syria, and the right of Ukraine to be free of foreign interference.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

PP - your post could not be any more perfect. But of course, Israelis are held to a different standard.

Round of applause for PP.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> More copy and paste, but easy to read:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-harris/to-the-weekend-protesters_b_5666015.html?msource=DHB081014
> 
> ...


Well said. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

SQM said:


> What is the right way? Israel gave back Gaza and the thanks they got were missiles. The Arabs have a glitch - they also kill off each other. If missiles were dropped over San Fran what would you do? Sadly the innocent everyday people get the short end of the stick when their government consists of terrorists. And I would like to add that my great uncles moved to Palestine at the turn of the 20th century so Jews were indeed living there also.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> More copy and paste, but easy to read:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-harris/to-the-weekend-protesters_b_5666015.html?msource=DHB081014
> 
> ...


Good article, trouble is that the only people who will get it are those who already do.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

David Harris's column is simplistic in the extreme. Many if not all of the issues he mentioned bring progressives out to protest. Seldom do these protests and demonstrations garner the press that the pro Palestinian protests receive. 

This is the last I will post on the subject, because just as the rigid conservatives on this and other threads refuse to regard any opinion and consider it may have some validity outside their personal bias, it seems neither do you PP, SQM, Knitnon etc.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> David Harris's column is simplistic in the extreme. Many if not all of the issues he mentioned bring progressives out to protest. Seldom do these protests and demonstrations garner the press that the pro Palestinian protests receive.
> 
> This is the last I will post on the subject, because just as the rigid conservatives on this and other threads refuse to regard any opinion and consider it may have some validity outside their personal bias, it seems neither do you PP, SQM, Knitnon etc.


What is your expectation of us? We beg to differ from you. That is all.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> David Harris's column is simplistic in the extreme. Many if not all of the issues he mentioned bring progressives out to protest. Seldom do these protests and demonstrations garner the press that the pro Palestinian protests receive.
> 
> This is the last I will post on the subject, because just as the rigid conservatives on this and other threads refuse to regard any opinion and consider it may have some validity outside their personal bias, it seems neither do you PP, SQM, Knitnon etc.


But doesn't that mean that you are just as ridget as all of us are?

Maybe if you were to say this is how I feel or think. Maybe if you said can we share what we are feeling and discuss it and find some middle ground.

Instead of turning off turn it on see why what and how one feels the way they do.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

SQM said:


> What is your expectation of us? We beg to differ from you. That is all.


The open mind(s) you expect from others.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> But doesn't that mean that you are just as ridget as all of us are?
> 
> Maybe if you were to say this is how I feel or think. Maybe if you said can we share what we are feeling and discuss it and find some middle ground.
> 
> Instead of turning off turn it on see why what and how one feels the way they do.


I have spent many long hours examining my stance on this issue and years ago after long consideration of both sides, concluded that what is being fed by the mainstream media and the Zionist opinion to the public (on this issue) and is fostered by traditional Jewish leaders is morally wrong.

It should be understood that a comment by anyone is their opinion and is how they think and feel. I really do not believe there is any middle ground on blockade and occupation. My opinion is shared by many other Jewish people.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> The open mind(s) you expect from others.


Open minds usually connotes "think like me". Why does it bother you so much that we disagree? None of us are going to solve the problems with the Arabs. I am okay with your opinions. I just like mine better.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

SQM said:


> Open minds usually connotes "think like me". Why does it bother you so much that we disagree? None of us are going to solve the problems with the Arabs. I am okay with your opinions. I just like mine better.


Oh you :roll: :wink:

Peace Goddess I realize where you are coming from. I have done the same thing. My way or the highway. The same with SQM is saying. But instead of finding the middle ground your beating your heads against the wall.

No one is right and no one is wrong. It took my dad dieding to show me. Life is to short to always be right.

It would be so much simpler if life was tread softly instead of with the right and wrong of it.

I do not fault anyones beliefs, but as we fight with each other ISIS is winning. If they can divide all of us then they win. I am sure you do not agreed with the way ISIS is using and killing people. They are killing both sides Arab and Jews. Would it not be better to seek away to come together on just that.

I know I know aren't I the one to call the Kettle black.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> David Harris's column is simplistic in the extreme. Many if not all of the issues he mentioned bring progressives out to protest. Seldom do these protests and demonstrations garner the press that the pro Palestinian protests receive.
> 
> This is the last I will post on the subject, because just as the rigid conservatives on this and other threads refuse to regard any opinion and consider it may have some validity outside their personal bias, it seems neither do you PP, SQM, Knitnon etc.


Was your purpose to change our minds so that we wouldn't mind our cousins and nieces and grand-nephews, if they're lucky to be alive, being thrown out of the country they were born in and/or have given so much to? That's sillier than Joeysomma thinking her messages will change our minds.

And allow me to point out that you, too, seem to be equally rigid on the subject, though you may believe you're on a higher moral plain and I just want to see my relatives and friends be able to live in peace.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Thanks, Yarnie. A very good suggestion.


theyarnlady said:


> But doesn't that mean that you are just as ridget as all of us are?
> 
> Maybe if you were to say this is how I feel or think. Maybe if you said can we share what we are feeling and discuss it and find some middle ground.
> 
> Instead of turning off turn it on see why what and how one feels the way they do.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> I have spent many long hours examining my stance on this issue and years ago after long consideration of both sides, concluded that what is being fed by the mainstream media and the Zionist opinion to the public (on this issue) and is fostered by traditional Jewish leaders is morally wrong.
> 
> It should be understood that a comment by anyone is their opinion and is how they think and feel. I really do not believe there is any middle ground on blockade and occupation. My opinion is shared by many other Jewish people.


Where is the middle ground between "We will drive you (Israelis) into the sea" and "We would like to see all Jews die"?


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> What do you think a blockade and an occupation do to a people? I did not say Jews were not living in Palestine, but they were not the majority population and it was Palestine, not Israel.


And way back when it was Canaan, and it was Judea. The word Palestine came from the Philistines (as in the people of Goliath).

Parts of the world change names as they are overrun by conquerors. You can bet the Native Americans did not call themselves any kind of Americans and did not call this place America.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> David Harris's column is simplistic in the extreme. Many if not all of the issues he mentioned bring progressives out to protest. Seldom do these protests and demonstrations garner the press that the pro Palestinian protests receive.
> 
> This is the last I will post on the subject, because just as the rigid conservatives on this and other threads refuse to regard any opinion and consider it may have some validity outside their personal bias, it seems neither do you PP, SQM, Knitnon etc.


Do I understand you correctly? You consider people who disagree with your perspective rigid and biased? Can you see the converse that you are rigid and do not choose to understand other people's viewpoints? You have your personal bias just as much as the rest of us do. I am biased toward people who are in danger of being murdered by their militant neighbors. I am biased toward people who just want to be left alone and are under siege through rocket attacks. Do you think Israel would be lobbing rockets if it were not in retaliation against Hamas trying to eradicate them? Israel is too busy trying to stave off annihilation to hire PR people to justify their stance.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> The open mind(s) you expect from others.


As long as the open mind is not the one emptied out of any common sense.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> I have spent many long hours examining my stance on this issue and years ago after long consideration of both sides, concluded that what is being fed by the mainstream media and the Zionist opinion to the public (on this issue) and is fostered by traditional Jewish leaders is morally wrong.
> 
> It should be understood that a comment by anyone is their opinion and is how they think and feel. I really do not believe there is any middle ground on blockade and occupation. My opinion is shared by many other Jewish people.


And there are many Jewish people who disagree with you heartily. There is a limit to how much Israel needs to cede to achieve peace. The only peace some of Israel's enemies offer is the utter destruction of Israel and the genocide of the remaining Jewish people. I do not want my descendents to end up being a sample exhibition at Madame Tussaud's.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

BookNook. said:


> Does SQM have "memory" issues?


I would like to forget you, Mayfly.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

BookNook. said:


> And then you would've come back asking for their friendship like it never happened.
> 
> The degree to which you kiss ass those bigots is at times nauseating and your "convenient" memory loss about their chronic bigoted and hateful behavior makes you an an enabler and maybe even worse than they are.


That is harsh and uncalled for. I know SQM can defend herself against anybody, but she is certainly not an a$$ ki$$er!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> And way back when it was Canaan, and it was Judea. The word Palestine came from the Philistines (as in the people of Goliath).
> 
> Parts of the world change names as they are overrun by conquerors. You can bet the Native Americans did not call themselves any kind of Americans and did not call this place America.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Do I understand you correctly? You consider people who disagree with your perspective rigid and biased? Can you see the converse that you are rigid and do not choose to understand other people's viewpoints? You have your personal bias just as much as the rest of us do. I am biased toward people who are in danger of being murdered by their militant neighbors. I am biased toward people who just want to be left alone and are under siege through rocket attacks. Do you think Israel would be lobbing rockets if it were not in retaliation against Hamas trying to eradicate them? Israel is too busy trying to stave off annihilation to hire PR people to justify their stance.


Thank you, Marilyn. Everything you say here goes for me, as well.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BookNook. said:


> I think you misunderstood Purl's point.
> 
> Her point is that Joey's position is based on blind religiosity where she's hoping for a situation where the rapture can come and
> 
> ...


And it's been said by some Christian clergymen that "the Antichrist will be a Jew, though his connections, his governmental position, his sphere of dominion, will by no means confine him to the Israelitish people." I guess if the Rapture comes to pass, the Israelitish people will have some new opponents to worry about.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Love that Israelitish. Are you describing Bloomberg?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Love that Israelitish. Are you describing Bloomberg?


http://biblehub.com/library/pink/the_antichrist/i_the_antichrist_will_be.htm

The following may also be enlightening: 
http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=171


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> http://biblehub.com/library/pink/the_antichrist/i_the_antichrist_will_be.htm
> 
> The following may also be enlightening:
> http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=171


kasarai.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

SQM said:


> What is your expectation of us? We beg to differ from you. That is all.


Does it matter? When someone, who is rigid herself, accuses others of being inflexible when at least some say I can see both sides... and the fact is that other than contacting representatives in the government none have any power to influence activity... it simply shows that intractibility of the poster.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> Oh you :roll: :wink:
> 
> Peace Goddess I realize where you are coming from. I have done the same thing. My way or the highway. The same with SQM is saying. But instead of finding the middle ground your beating your heads against the wall.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Will the Antichrist be a Muslim?
[read in Lamplighter (pdf)]

The traditional viewpoint has been that the Antichrist will be a European of Roman descent. This view is based on a statement in Daniel 9:26 which says that the Antichrist, referred to as "the prince who is to come," will be from "the people who destroy the Temple." Those people proved to be the Romans who destroyed the Temple in 70 AD.
Gentile or Jew?

Scholars have been divided as to whether or not this person of Roman heritage will be a Gentile or a Jew. Many have pointed to John 5:43 to argue that the Antichrist will be a Jew. That verse quotes Jesus as saying, "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another shall come in his own name, you will receive him." The argument drawn from this statement is that the Antichrist must be a Jew in order for the Jews to accept him as their Messiah.

But other prophecies in the Bible make it clear that the Jews will never accept the Antichrist as their Messiah. In fact we are told point blank that when the Antichrist declares himself to be God at the mid-point of the Tribulation, the Jews will be outraged and will reject him, causing him to turn on them in fury with the purpose of annihilating them (Revelation 12:13-17).
The Gentile Argument

So what did Jesus mean when He said that "if another shall come in his own name you will receive him?" Those who argue the Antichrist will be a Gentile respond by saying that the Antichrist will be accepted by the Jewish people as their political savior when he implements a treaty that will guarantee their security and enable them to rebuild their Temple (Daniel 9:27). But the Jews will never receive the Antichrist as their spiritual savior. Thus, when he declares himself to be God, they will reject him.

There is other scriptural evidence that the Antichrist will be a Gentile. For example, Revelation 13:1 pictures him as a beast arising "out of the sea." The sea is used in Scripture to symbolize the Gentile nations (Daniel 7:3 and Luke 21:25).

In contrast, the Antichrist's right-hand man and spiritual leader is pictured in Revelation 13:11 as rising up out of the land (or the earth, in some translations). This reference to the land is an indication that the False Prophet will be a Jew who will rise out of the Promised Land of Israel.
Possibly a Muslim?

Could the Antichrist possibly be a Muslim? This is a new idea that seems to be catching fire today due to the awakening of Islam and the revival of its territorial goal of conquering the world for Allah.

I recently read four books that relate to this topic. One lays the biblical foundation without asserting that the Antichrist will actually be a Muslim. The other three use that foundation to make the assertion.

The book that provides the biblical foundation  and the best book of the four  is entitled The Assyrian Connection.1 It was written in 1993 by Phillip Goodman. A revised edition was published in 2003.

Phillip Goodman

Goodman is a specialist in Bible prophecy who resides in Tulsa, Oklahoma. He is an astute Bible student and gifted teacher who bases all that he writes and says on Scripture.
Goodman's Book

In his book, Goodman argues that the Antichrist will rise from the Eastern wing of the old Roman Empire, coming from the ancient Greek sphere of influence that was incorporated into that empire. Getting even more specific, he argues that the Antichrist will come from the Seleucid area of the Greek sphere  specifically, from Assyria, meaning either modern-day Syria or Iraq. Although he never specifically states that the Antichrist will be a Muslim, he leaves this distinct impression by claiming that he will come from an area dominated by Islam.

For scriptural evidence of his thesis, Goodman points to the description of the Antichrist in Revelation 13:2 where he is portrayed symbolically as being like a leopard, with the feet of a bear, and the mouth of a lion. This imagery comes right out of Daniel 7 where the Empire of Babylon is pictured as a lion, the Medo-Persian Empire is depicted as a bear, and the Macedonian or Greek Empire of Alexander the Great is described as a leopard.

Goodman argues that since the dominate feature of the Antichrist in Revelation 13:2 is his leopard body, it is an indication that the Antichrist will rise out of the area of the Greek Empire that was incorporated into the Roman Empire.

Next, he narrows the geographical search by pointing to Micah 5:5 where an end time prophecy refers to "the Assyrian" invading the land of Israel. He argues this is a reference to the Antichrist.

He then buttresses his argument by referencing Daniel 8 where Daniel tells about a vision he was given of a succession of empires. Daniel says he saw a ram representing the Medo-Persian Empire (vs. 3 and 20) and that it was trampled by a male goat, representing the Greek Empire (vs. 5-7 and 21). The male goat had a "conspicuous horn between his eyes" representing Alexander the Great. But then Daniel reports that he saw the large horn "broken" (symbolizing the death of Alexander) and that "in its place there came up four conspicuous horns," representing the four divisions of the Greek Empire that were created after Alexander's death.

Out of one of those four divisions of Alexander's Empire Daniel witnessed the emergence of "a little horn which grew exceedingly great" (verse 9).
Antiochus Epiphanes

Nearly all Bible scholars agree that this little horn represents Antiochus Epiphanes, a tyrant who arose out of the Seleucid section of Alexander's Empire. He is described in detail in verses 23-26 in what sounds like a classic depiction of the Antichrist, making it clear that Antiochus was a type of the Antichrist. In fact, this is made rather clear in verses 17 and 19 where Daniel is told by Gabriel that the prophecy will not find its fulfillment until the "time of the end."

So, if the type of the Antichrist  Antiochus Epiphanes  was from Seleucia, then Goodman argues the Antichrist will also come from that same area (Syria/Iraq) and will thus be an Assyrian.
A Succession of Empires

Another argument Goodman uses to substantiate the Assyrian connection of the Antichrist is based on a passage in Revelation 17:9-11 where there is a reference to seven empires. Five are referred to as "fallen" (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece). The sixth is "the one that is"  namely, the one that existed at that time (Rome). The seventh is called the one that "has not yet come" (the empire that will give birth to the Antichrist). Revelation 13:1-3 also refers to these seven empires and states that the Antichrist will arise out of the one that comes back to life in the end times. The traditional interpretation is that this is a reference to a revival of the Roman Empire.

But Goodman says no. He argues that all the kingdoms continued to exist to one degree or another except the Assyrian. He argues it was the only one that totally ceased to exist and therefore, it is the one that will be resurrected from the dead in the end times. To support this conclusion from Scripture, Goodman quotes Daniel 7:12 where Daniel is told that "an extension of life" for "an appointed time" had been granted to the beasts that were symbolic of world empires.

Goodman offers a number of other arguments in behalf of his thesis, but these are the key ones. Let's now evaluate them.
Responding to Goodman

With regard to the symbolic description of the Antichrist in Revelation 13:2 as being like a leopard with the feet of a bear and the mouth of a lion, I see no reason to seize on the mention of the leopard to conclude that the Antichrist will come out of the Greek sphere of the old Roman Empire. I believe all this passage is saying is that the kingdom of the Antichrist will have characteristics of these three kingdoms  swift as a leopard, strong as a bear, and deadly as a lion.

And surely that will be the case, for keep in mind that the book of Revelation reveals that the Antichrist will conquer the entire world in only three and a half years!
Micah 5:5

Nor do I believe there is any validity to the use of Micah 5:5 to determine the national identity of the Antichrist. Micah 5:3-15 is entirely about the Millennium. The Antichrist will be dead and gone during that time. Revelation 19:20-21 says that at the Second Coming of Jesus  at the end of the Tribulation  the Antichrist and his False Prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire where they will be tormented eternally (20:10).

I believe that all the prophet is saying in Micah 5:5-6 is that during the Millennium the Lord will protect Israel from all its natural enemies  as symbolized by Assyria (the enemy of Israel at the time the prophet wrote).
Daniel 8

Regarding Daniel 8, there is no doubt that this chapter is a prophecy that Antiochus Epiphanes, who is a biblical type of the Antichrist, will rise out of one of the four divisions of Alexander's Empire that were created after his death. It is also clear that the chapter states that what is said about the nature of Antiochus applies to the Antichrist in the end times (Daniel 8:17 and 19). But the primary focus of the chapter is on the personality and character of the Antichrist (verses 23-26), not on his origin.

Keep in mind that there are many other symbolic types of the Antichrist in Scripture besides Antiochus. They include such persons as the Pharaoh of the Exodus, King Saul of Israel, David's son, Absalom, and King Herod. Some of these are Jewish, but that doesn't mean the Antichrist will be Jewish. One of the most significant, the Pharaoh of the Exodus, was from Egypt, but that doesn't mean the Antichrist will be an Egyptian.

They, like Antiochus, are types of the Antichrist because of their rebellion against God and because they attempted to exalt themselves above God. Remember also that symbolic types are never exactly the same as what they are symbols of. Joseph, for example, is a symbolic type of Jesus.

But even more important is the fact that Antiochus Epiphanes was of Greek heritage. He was not an Assyrian. So, if the prophecy in Daniel 8 is pointing to the heritage of the Antichrist, it is indicating that he will be a Roman of Greek heritage.
Revelation 17

The weakest argument Goodman attempts to use is the one he bases on Revelation 17:9-11. His assertion that all the empires included in this passage have continued to this day, except the Assyrian, simply cannot be justified in history. The Babylonian Empire ceased to exist overnight when it was overthrown by the Medo-Persian Empire. Two hundred years later, when Alexander the Great visited the site of the Empire's capital city, there was nothing left but ruins.

The Bible specifically prophesies that Babylon will be overthrown by the Medes, and that thereafter, it will "never be inhabited or lived in from generation to generation" (Isaiah 13:17-20). That prophecy was partially fulfilled in 539 BC when the Medes and the Persians conquered Babylon. It was completely fulfilled in the years that followed as the city went into a slow decline, ultimately ending up in ruins. And just as prophesied, the city has remained desolate to this day (despite persistent rumors of it being "rebuilt").

The bottom line is that there is no way around the fact that the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Roman Empires ceased to exist. And there is no way to sensibly argue that all of them have continued to this day except the Assyrian, and therefore it is the one that will be resurrected in the end times. The context of Daniel's succession of world empires as portrayed in chapters 2 and 7 is that the empire of the Antichrist will be a revival of the last of the empires in the series  the Roman Empire.

This discussion reminds me of the Holy Roman Empire that existed from about 800 AD to 1806. It was an attempt by Germanic tribes to keep the Roman Empire alive. But it was very limited in scope and existed primarily on paper, prompting Voltaire to observe, "It is neither holy, Roman, nor an empire."
A Major Revision

In the 2003 revision of his book, Goodman decided that the seventh empire of Revelation 17 should be changed from a revival of the Roman Empire to the Ottoman Empire (1299-1923). But he continued to argue that the Antichrist would arise out of the revived Assyrian Empire.2

Let's take a careful look at the Revelation 17 passage. It begins by referring to the scarlet beast (the Antichrist) on which a great harlot (the Antichrist's apostate religion) sits. It says the beast has seven heads.

9) Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,

10) and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.

11) And the beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

Considering the time when this passage was written (95 AD), the five kings "fallen" would be the following empires: Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Grecian. The "one is" empire  the one existing at the time Revelation was written  would be the Roman. The one to come would be the revival of the Roman Empire which will give birth to the Antichrist (the European Union). The eighth empire would be the worldwide empire of the Antichrist which he will establish through military conquest during the first half of the Tribulation.

The Ottoman Empire cannot be inserted in this passage. To do so would make it the seventh empire. The eighth, according to Goodman, would be the revival of the Assyrian Empire, making the worldwide empire of the Antichrist the ninth empire. But the passage provides for only eight empires.

Furthermore, to deny that the empire to be revived is the Roman Empire is to deny the significance of the miraculous revival of that empire in our day and time in the form of the European Union  an event that has been predicted by prophecy experts for several hundred years.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Many people, Christian and non-Christian alike, simply don't believe in the rapture or an anti-Christ. This post may not be appropriate for Current Events.
Just my opinion.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Will the Antichrist be a Muslim?
> <read in Lamplighter (pdf)>
> 
> The traditional viewpoint has been that the Antichrist will be a European of Roman descent. This view is based on a statement in Daniel 9:26 which says that the Antichrist, referred to as "the prince who is to come," will be from "the people who destroy the Temple." Those people proved to be the Romans who destroyed the Temple in 70 AD.
> Gentile or Jew?


An interesting piece. I'm curious to know how it actually eventually turns out.

I have one question: If it says that He will be from "the people who destroy the Temple," how do we know it isn't the First Temple that's being referred to? This was destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 BCE.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Many people, Christian and non-Christian alike, simply don't believe in the rapture or an anti-Christ. This post may not be appropriate for Current Events.
> Just my opinion.


Not current, you say. Well, it isn't history, is it?

A man I knew was once approached by a Chabad member, who said "The meshiach (Messiah) is here." My friend said, "I'm glad. He owes me ten bucks." The Chabad guy walked away.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Not appropriate for Current Events. IMHO



cookiequeen said:


> Many people, Christian and non-Christian alike, simply don't believe in the rapture or an anti-Christ. This post may not be appropriate for Current Events.
> Just my opinion.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Not current, you say. Well, it isn't history, is it?
> 
> A man I knew was once approached by a Chabad member, who said "The meshiach (Messiah) is here." My friend said, "I'm glad. He owes me ten bucks." The Chabad guy walked away.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Oh you :roll: :wink:
> 
> Peace Goddess I realize where you are coming from. I have done the same thing. My way or the highway. The same with SQM is saying. But instead of finding the middle ground your beating your heads against the wall.
> 
> ...


Before all else, my condolences on the loss of your father. I hope his spirit will be a guardian angel to you from now on.

Yarnie, we are each a work in progress. Sometimes it takes a life crisis, sometimes it is an "aha" moment when we find our inner self and reinvent ourselves. Most of us, whether we agree on some piddling details we really cannot control or not, seem to have that core of hope that makes our humanity shine out. We want a better (or at the least not a worse) world for our children and generations to come.

It is 30 years since my dad passed, and sometimes I can still see his face from when I was a child, hear his words, and find the strength to move through difficult times. That special bond can't ever go away.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

damemary said:


> Not appropriate for Current Events. IMHO


I opinion it is.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> And it's been said by some Christian clergymen that "the Antichrist will be a Jew, though his connections, his governmental position, his sphere of dominion, will by no means confine him to the Israelitish people." I guess if the Rapture comes to pass, the Israelitish people will have some new opponents to worry about.


Who are the 144,000?

In Revelation 7, we are introduced to a special group of believers who are called the servants of our God (Revelation 7:3). They are sealed by God for ministry before the 7th seal is opened. This number is exact of a certain group of people  the Jews, 12,000 from 12 tribes (Rev.7:4).

Some people claim that we do not know who they all are. It does not matter, God does.

The tribe of Dan is excluded (Revelation 7:6) and Manasseh who is one of the sons of Joseph takes his place.)

The 144,000 are not sealed to become Israel but are sealed OUT OF Israel. The Bible tells us these men from the 12 tribes of Israel who will be evangelists to the world during the Tribulation period.

The genealogical background of the 144,000 is Hebrew Rev. 7 tell us clearly that they will be totally Jewish in origin because they are called children of Israel. The scripture tells us plainly that there will be 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.

The importance of the number 12 is a consistent one. In Mt.10:2 Jesus picks 12 men that will be evangelists to Israel (in contradistinction, Jesus seals 12,000 men from 12 tribes to go to the world). Acts 1:21-26, the 11 apostles recognize that Judas must be replaced to keep this consistent number of 12.

Matt 19:28 So Jesus said to them, Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

In heaven the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles are recognized. Rev. 21:12-14: Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west. Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Of the New Jerusalem the number is kept as its theme:

The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel (Rev. 21:16-17).

The 144,000 will be saved men that will give faithful witness to Jesus Christ- they are His Jewish witnesses in the Tribulation period.

These are later referred to (Revelation 14:4) as the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. They will be the first to come to Christ as Saviour in the Tribulation period.

It will be these evangelists that will go throughout the world preaching the gospel fulfilling what Jesus said and then the end will come.

Rev 7:9: After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands These are those saved by the ministry of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists from without the world as the witness to every nation and people.. The white robes ands palm branches speak of salvation.

Rev. 7:13-14 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from? And I said to him, Sir, you know. So he said to me, These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This is a future people that are saved during the great tribulation. This is not taking place now.

In Rev. 14 we see them in a vision with the Messiah on the mount when he returns.

They are sealed for ministry and protection throughout the tribulation period:

In Rev. 9:1-4 the bottomless pit is open and this demonic force are told not to touch those who are sealed Rev 9: 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

And they are also virgins (this should be taken literally):

Rev. 14:4-5: These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

So we learn that they are all males, they are unmarried (virgins) and they speak only truth (no deceit in their mouth).

The 144,000 Jews appear to be on the earth throughout the complete tribulation period as they are sealed for doing ministry. Being sent throughout the world they might be in the city of Petra (Bozrah) when Israel flees at the second half of the Tribulation (Rev.12), and be influential in leading Israel into their repentance (Zech.12:9-14); then they will call upon Jesus to come back (Mt.23:39; Zech. 13:9; Hosea 5:15; Rom.11:26), first to rescue them then to the valley of Meggido where the battle of Armageddon will occur (Zech.14:2-5.)


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

These are the ones who were not defiled with women"

Oh that was my favorite line. How does a woman defile? Does that mean eschewing the manicurist?


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> These are the ones who were not defiled with women"
> 
> Oh that was my favorite line. How does a woman defile? Does that mean eschewing the manicurist?


It is not a joke. You are being disrespectful to your own people. Plus my faith.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Death turns life into a joke. 

Sounds a bit anti-woman and that deserves some sort of mention, doesn't it?


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> Death turns life into a joke.
> 
> Sounds a bit anti-woman and that deserves some sort of mention, doesn't it?


No because the Word of God is no joking matter. 
Revaltions 22:18
Nothing May Be Added
18I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
I am sorry you have having to deal with the death of you sil but you don't need to make fun of someone's faith.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> It is not a joke. You are being disrespectful to your own people. Plus my faith.


Sorry, but SQM's "own people" love to tell jokes and do not see them as disrespect.

This really is not a current event. I brought it up in answer to a different message, and now I'm sorry I did.

You can use this in many other threads, but I'm hoping this discussion is at an end here, or you can expect a lot more jokes.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Who are the 144,000?


Whatever you may "opinion," this message is obviously uncalled for on this thread, and it's this message, not SQM's joke, that disrespects my people.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> No because the Word of God is no joking matter.
> Revaltions 22:18
> Nothing May Be Added
> 18I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
> I am sorry you have having to deal with the death of you sil but you don't need to make fun of someone's faith.


SQM's and my people don't believe Revelations is a holy book; to me it's more like a horror story and it makes fun of my faith. Please take this stuff elsewhere. I'm sure WOW would love it, since that long message is one of the battles fought against women.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Since there will most likely be no anti-Christ I will have to beg off. I don't answer hypotheticals. 


Country Bumpkins said:


> Will the Antichrist be a Muslim?
> [read in Lamplighter (pdf)]
> 
> for several hundred years.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitanon said:


> Since there will most likely be no anti-Christ I will have to beg off. I don't answer hypotheticals.


Then why post the entire message? Now it's there twice, and others will do the same.

People, it's very easy to remove whole swathes of text: highlight what you want to get rid of, then hit delete.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> Many people, Christian and non-Christian alike, simply don't believe in the rapture or an anti-Christ. This post may not be appropriate for Current Events.
> Just my opinion.


That was my thought. What the heck does this have to do with Current Events?


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Then why post the entire message? Now it's there twice, and others will do the same.
> 
> People, it's very easy to remove whole swathes of text: highlight what you want to get rid of, then hit delete.


Sorry, Purl, I guess I expect that people will just skip the article just like I did. 
I am not short on ink this week. ;-)

NYAH NYAH


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh, I see. Are there any other opinions?



Country Bumpkins said:


> I opinion it is.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> These are the ones who were not defiled with women"
> 
> Oh that was my favorite line. How does a woman defile? Does that mean eschewing the manicurist?


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You are being disrespectful to me/us.



Country Bumpkins said:


> It is not a joke. You are being disrespectful to your own people. Plus my faith.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And eventually many, many unwatches. Or is that your or your leader's objective?



Poor Purl said:


> Sorry, but SQM's "own people" love to tell jokes and do not see them as disrespect.
> 
> This really is not a current event. I brought it up in answer to a different message, and now I'm sorry I did.
> 
> You can use this in many other threads, but I'm hoping this discussion is at an end here, or you can expect a lot more jokes.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitanon said:


> Sorry, Purl, I guess I expect that people will just skip the article just like I did.
> I am not short on ink this week. ;-)
> 
> NYAH NYAH


I hate even just scrolling through those things, and more than once is too many.

Thank you for shortening your message. And for putting me in my place with NYAH NYAH


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Oh, I see. Are there any other opinions?


One of her opinions seems to be that "opinion" is a verb.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I hate even just scrolling through those things, and more than once is too many.
> 
> Thank you for shortening your message. And for putting me in my place with NYAH NYAH


That was my one moment of fun filled thought today...that I was able to "fix" that. 
Robin Williams' death is current, an event, and so so sad.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitanon said:


> That was my one moment of fun filled thought today...that I was able to "fix" that.
> Robin Williams' death is current, an event, and so so sad.


And now Lauren Bacall. At least she had a long life. I think she had suffered a stroke recently. Have to read her bio.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> And now Lauren Bacall. At least she had a long life. I think she had suffered a stroke recently. Have to read her bio.


This thread is now my deliverer of bad news. Yikes!!!!!

She was stunning.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

SQM said:


> This thread is now my deliverer of bad news. Yikes!!!!!
> 
> She was stunning.


And the latest victim of police brutality, Mr. Michael Brown. 
So much to be mourned, much too much to be concerned about some hope of a limited number of souls being lifted up to God based on fables. 
Me, I want Rapunzel's hair and a spiffy tower.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitanon said:


> And the latest victim of police brutality, Mr. Michael Brown.
> So much to be mourned, much too much to be concerned about some hope of a limited number of souls being lifted up to God based on fables.
> Me, I want Rapunzel's hair and a spiffy tower.


And people think there is no more racism in this country!


----------



## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> And people think there is no more racism in this country!


That is one of the essential points of this rise(?) in shootings and beatings and maybe even the instant shooting response for the mentally ill. 
How often does it happen to the majority?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> And people think there is no more racism in this country!


Do people really _think_ that or do they just say it?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

What about giving special treatment to the whites who contracted ebola and not giving it to Africans? Thanks Anon for reminding us about Howard Brown.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> One of her opinions seems to be that "opinion" is a verb.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: ROFL You are clever with words. I couldn't get past stupidity. Much better.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

A sad day for all.



cookiequeen said:


> And now Lauren Bacall. At least she had a long life. I think she had suffered a stroke recently. Have to read her bio.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ugliness in the streets.



cookiequeen said:


> And people think there is no more racism in this country!


----------



## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Do people really _think_ that or do they just say it?


It's a good blind for haters, isn't it?
Oh, I just don't see it, it can't be.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> It's a good blind for haters, isn't it?
> Oh, I just don't see it, it can't be.


 :roll: :roll:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Kind of like those women who deny that women are still paid less than men, regardless of the statistics.


Knitanon said:


> It's a good blind for haters, isn't it?
> Oh, I just don't see it, it can't be.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

In late July, John Kerry's attempt to broker a ceasefire in the Middle East was met by anger on the part not only of Israel but also of Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Could this have been the reason?

*What Was He Thinking?
By seeking reconciliation with Iran, Washington alienates its allies and contributes to ever greater mayhem in the Middle East.*
Michael Doran |
August 13, 2014

On Friday July 25, as war raged in Gaza, John Kerry delivered a draft ceasefire agreement to
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who then presented it to his security cabinet for
consideration. Because the proposal granted Hamas a significant political victoryacquiescing,
up front, in a number of the terrorist groups key demands while failing even to mention Israels
two primary concerns of infiltration tunnels and rocketsthe ministers unanimously rejected it.

When unnamed officials leaked the document to Israels habitually left­leaning press, along with
an account of the governments thinking, a firestorm of indignation eruptednot, however, at
Netanyahu but at the American Secretary of State. The views of one highly respected journalist
were typical. Kerrys proposal, he wrote, raises serious doubts over his judgment. . . . Its as if
he isnt the foreign minister of the worlds most powerful nation but an alien who just disembarked
his spaceship in the Middle East.

The journalist in question, Barak Ravid, is the diplomatic correspondent for Haaretz, the flagship
publication of the Israeli Left. Remarkably, Ravid was not alone among his colleagues. Some of
the most vituperative attacks on Kerry came from critics of Netanyahucolumnists and others
who regard the prime ministers support for Israeli settlements as the greatest impediment to
peace with the Palestinians.

What accounts for this unprecedented show of unanimity? Wartime solidarity, in partbut only in part. No less dismaying to the Israeli Left was the way Kerrys proposal shunted aside both Egypt and the Palestinian Authority (PA) in a mad rush to embrace Hamas, Turkey, and Qatar as trusted interlocutors. In the eyes of Israeli leftists, the PA and Egypt are essential to a two-state solution of the conflict with the Palestinians, and any proposal that diminishes their standing is ignorant and misguided.

Its not clear what Kerry was thinking, Ravid wrote. Indeed, Kerrys Israeli critics assumed that he was not thinking at all. One commentator accused him of a rookie mistake. But this evaluation assigns responsibility to the wrong man, and incorrectly identifies the nature of the miscalculation. The true architect of the fiasco was not Kerry but President Obama, and the blunder was no tactical mishap. Rather, it was the logical product of a grand strategy, and fits seamlessly into an unmistakably broad pattern.

All across the Middle East, the traditional allies of the United States, just like the Israeli Left, feel that Obama has betrayed them. Egyptians, Saudis, Jordanians, Emiratis, and Turks, despite the very real differences among them, nurture grievances similar in kind to those expressed on the pages of Haaretz. Ravids questionWhat was Kerry thinking?deserves to be recast. It would get closer to the heart of the matter to ask what the president was thinking.

The answer is as simple as it is surprising: the president is dreaming of an historical accommodation with Iran. The pursuit of that accommodation is the great white whale of Obamas Middle East strategy, and capturing it is all that matters; everything else is insignificant by comparison. The goal looms so large as to influence every other facet of American policy, even so seemingly unrelated a matter as a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.
...........................................................................................................

See the rest of this longish piece at http://mosaicmagazine.com/tesserae/2014/08/what-was-he-thinking/


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

"Kerry sounds just like CNN" , said the Sloth who is wearing her new IDF tee shirt that she wheedled from a friend because she loves Israel so much.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> In late July, John Kerry's attempt to broker a ceasefire in the Middle East was met by anger on the part not only of Israel but also of Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Could this have been the reason?
> 
> *What Was He Thinking?
> By seeking reconciliation with Iran, Washington alienates its allies and contributes to ever greater mayhem in the Middle East.*
> ...


I read the entire article. Thanks for sharing it. I'd really like to know what you thought of it, and what you think of this administration's policies for the middle east. If you agree with the author, why do you think Obama is favoring Iran? I would really be interested in your views.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I read the entire article. Thanks for sharing it. I'd really like to know what you thought of it, and what you think of this administration's policies for the middle east. If you agree with the author, why do you think Obama is favoring Iran? I would really be interested in your views.


They are not Arabs and I assume they have some oil. Always think resources as the reason for alliances and wars.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> They are not Arabs and I assume they have some oil. Always think resources as the reason for alliances and wars.


Did you read the article? It concerns this administration favoring Iran over Israel. Why would we favor Iran when we can get oil from Saudi Arabia, an ally? (Technically, we get most of our oil from Venezuela) But Iran is our enemy. They fund our enemies. They fund the enemies of our allies. They have vowed to kill Americans and Jews. Why is this administration betraying Israel?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I read the entire article. Thanks for sharing it. I'd really like to know what you thought of it, and what you think of this administration's policies for the middle east. If you agree with the author, why do you think Obama is favoring Iran? I would really be interested in your views.


I think Obama wants to do what his predecessor couldn't do - bring Iran back into the fold. I'm not happy with his middle east policies. In an interview he did last week, when asked whether he was concerned about Israel, his reply was that they were so strong, he had no concerns. To me that sounded like "They're on their own." I'm very worried.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> They are not Arabs and I assume they have some oil. Always think resources as the reason for alliances and wars.


Why would Arab or not Arab have any importance? They _are_ Muslims.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Did you read the article? It concerns this administration favoring Iran over Israel. Why would we favor Iran when we can get oil from Saudi Arabia, an ally? (Technically, we get most of our oil from Venezuela) But Iran is our enemy. They fund our enemies. They fund the enemies of our allies. They have vowed to kill Americans and Jews. Why is this administration betraying Israel?


Haven't you been paying attention? Since his first inauguration, Obama has been trying to win over people who are adversaries. The ACA isn't half as good as it would have been with single payer, but he didn't want to fight the Repubs over it. In the meantime, they've shown that they don't want to play with him.

He appears to have given up on them, but now he's flirting with Iran. What a coup if he can make them our allies! I doubt it will happen, but a lot of bad things will happen before he realizes he can't do it.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Why would Arab or not Arab have any importance? They _are_ Muslims.


But there is a lot of infighting among Muslims. All Iranians that I have met make it very clear they are not Arabs. Iran has a different culture and can be encouraged to fight Arabs. Remember the Iraqi/ Iranian war? Hug your friends but hug your enemy's enemy more.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I think Obama wants to do what his predecessor couldn't do - bring Iran back into the fold. I'm not happy with his middle east policies. In an interview he did last week, when asked whether he was concerned about Israel, his reply was that they were so strong, he had no concerns. To me that sounded like "They're on their own." I'm very worried.


Thanks for responding! What do you mean by "bring Iran back into the fold"? Was Iran ever " in the fold"? To my knowledge, (correct me if I'm wrong) we backed the Shah, a brutal dictator. The people of Iran suffered greatly and hate us for it. They also hate us for supporting Israel. It is their goal to wipe Israel off the map. They refer to Israel as the little satan and the US as the big satan. So, what could be Obama's reason for allying with Iran? Wouldn't this be a betrayal to both the people of Israel and the people of the US?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I just cannot think of why we would betray our long time ally in the middle east. I too, worry about Israel. I worry that without the absolute support of the US, the Holocaust will happen again, but on a larger scale. I pray that something will change.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks for responding! What do you mean by "bring Iran back into the fold"? Was Iran ever " in the fold"? To my knowledge, (correct me if I'm wrong) we backed the Shah, a brutal dictator. The people of Iran suffered greatly and hate us for it. They also hate us for supporting Israel. It is their goal to wipe Israel off the map. They refer to Israel as the little satan and the US as the big satan. So, what could be Obama's reason for allying with Iran? Wouldn't this be a betrayal to both the people of Israel and the people of the US?
> 
> I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I just cannot think of why we would betray our long time ally in the middle east. I too, worry about Israel. I worry that without the absolute support of the US, the Holocaust will happen again, but on a larger scale. I pray that something will change.


Maybe Iran has more to offer the US than Israel does at the moment. If there is another Holocaust, I imagine Israel taking down the whole middle east.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Haven't you been paying attention? Since his first inauguration, Obama has been trying to win over people who are adversaries. The ACA isn't half as good as it would have been with single payer, but he didn't want to fight the Repubs over it. In the meantime, they've shown that they don't want to play with him.
> 
> He appears to have given up on them, but now he's flirting with Iran. What a coup if he can make them our allies! I doubt it will happen, but a lot of bad things will happen before he realizes he can't do it.


The way I see it, is that he is allying himself with our enemies, those who hate us. I see no connection between his middle east policies and the aca, except that IMO, he is fundamentally changing our country. And NOT in a good way! The only way we could be allies with Iran, is to be enemies of Israel!. No thanks! Keep the change!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> But there is a lot of infighting among Muslims. All Iranians that I have met make it very clear they are not Arabs. Iran has a different culture and can be encouraged to fight Arabs. Remember the Iraqi/ Iranian war? Hug your friends but hug your enemy's enemy more.


Yes, there is infighting among Muslims. But they all have one thing in common, they hate Israel! In my mind, it would be unacceptable to abandon Israel for any type of material gain.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Maybe Iran has more to offer the US than Israel does at the moment. If there is another Holocaust, I imagine Israel taking down the whole middle east.


Imagine that with both Russia and the US allying with Iran? IMO, perhaps Obama is just messing with Russia (by cozying up to Russia's ally) and Israel is just a pawn to him?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Yes, there is infighting among Muslims. But they all have one thing in common, they hate Israel! In my mind, it would be unacceptable to abandon Israel for any type of material gain.


Material gains trump any 'friendship".


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Material gains trump any 'friendship".


IMO, it has nothing to do with material gain. I can't help but believe that there is some underlying strategy or plan. When have we ever known what our government was up to?


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

SQM said:


> Maybe Iran has more to offer the US than Israel does at the moment. If there is another Holocaust, I imagine Israel taking down the whole middle east.


What Iran has is an atomic bomb which they have not given up making whether Kerry or the President belives it or not they have allowed sanctions to be lifted on Iran so food and money are again allowed to flow. It was a foolish move and one that should have never been allowed. This can not all be blamed on Kerry the President has allowed this.

It is not just oil right now it is a way of life for the terrioist who believe in that their faith is the only one on this earth to believe in.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> What Iran has is an atomic bomb which they have not given up making whether Kerry or the President belives it or not they have allowed sanctions to be lifted on Iran so food and money are again allowed to flow. It was a foolish move and one that should have never been allowed. This can not all be blamed on Kerry the President has allowed this.
> 
> It is not just oil right now it is a way of life for the terrioist who believe in that their faith is the only one on this earth to believe in.


Hi Yarnie,

Of course Iran has the bomb already and probably has had it for awhile.

Since the public has little info on what really goes on, I am sure there is a 'practical' reason why the Obama admin. is moving toward Iran. Kerry is a total idiot and the Obama foreign policy leaves me scratching my head. All I can guess is as I mentioned earlier, Iran does not share a culture with the Arabs so I assume this is another reason for muslims to hate each other. This must have some appeal to the current admin. Any other guesses?


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

The US has a long history of bolstering or providing aid to "enemy" countries in order to get what we want only to have them turn on us--usually with the very weapons we provided to them. We've done this interference with Iran a couple of times now, first by inserting & supporting the Shah, and then with providing them with weapons during the Iran-Contra Affair. I wish that we would just stay out of the affairs of other countries. We never seem to learn our lessons.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

BREAKING NEWS Friday, August 15, 2014 7:05 PM EDT
Texas Gov. Rick Perry Indicted on Charge of Abuse of Power
Gov. Rick Perry of Texas was indicted on two felony counts on Friday by a state grand jury examining his handling of a local district attorneys drunken driving arrest and the state financing for a public corruption unit under the lawyers control.
The indictment was returned late Friday in Austin.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> BREAKING NEWS Friday, August 15, 2014 7:05 PM EDT
> Texas Gov. Rick Perry Indicted on Charge of Abuse of Power
> Gov. Rick Perry of Texas was indicted on two felony counts on Friday by a state grand jury examining his handling of a local district attorneys drunken driving arrest and the state financing for a public corruption unit under the lawyers control.
> The indictment was returned late Friday in Austin.


Wow! But even in my little neighborhood's government body, corruption reports just became public. Pols can have issues.

We have not discussed Ferguson. The media is having a feeding frenzy.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Indictment does not mean guilty. If you want to indict someone for abuse of power it should be Obama. At least Perry is doing something to slow the illegals crossing the border where Obama has not (just the opposite). For a former Constitutional Law Professor, Obama seems to know nothing about the Constitution.


Oh and you know more???????


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I guess I'll just stay tuned for file at 11:00 PM.



MarilynKnits said:


> BREAKING NEWS Friday, August 15, 2014 7:05 PM EDT
> Texas Gov. Rick Perry Indicted on Charge of Abuse of Power
> Gov. Rick Perry of Texas was indicted on two felony counts on Friday by a state grand jury examining his handling of a local district attorneys drunken driving arrest and the state financing for a public corruption unit under the lawyers control.
> The indictment was returned late Friday in Austin.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

To me, it seems that everything that has come out so far has reflected very poorly on the police department. What has been provided by police dept. seems like excuses. I would say to let things calm down and see if the guilty is punished.



SQM said:


> Wow! But even in my little neighborhood's government body, corruption reports just became public. Pols can have issues.
> 
> We have not discussed Ferguson. The media is having a feeding frenzy.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

damemary said:


> To me, it seems that everything that has come out so far has reflected very poorly on the police department. What has been provided by police dept. seems like excuses. I would say to let things calm down and see if the guilty is punished.


Guess you have not seen the video of what the young man was really doing. As usual TV charges off, not knowing what has happen , people don't stop and really think about it, and off they go. To bad so many people want to believe the worst before they even know what is really going on.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> BREAKING NEWS Friday, August 15, 2014 7:05 PM EDT
> Texas Gov. Rick Perry Indicted on Charge of Abuse of Power
> Gov. Rick Perry of Texas was indicted on two felony counts on Friday by a state grand jury examining his handling of a local district attorneys drunken driving arrest and the state financing for a public corruption unit under the lawyers control.
> The indictment was returned late Friday in Austin.


Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. Or at least to a guy with nicer hair.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Oh and you know more???????


I was about to ask her the same thing.

Joey, does it never occur to you that you may be wrong, or at least mistaken, in some of your opinions?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Guess you have not seen the video of what the young man was really doing. As usual TV charges off, not knowing what has happen , people don't stop and really think about it, and off they go. To bad so many people want to believe the worst before they even know what is really going on.


Are you speaking about people who want to believe the worst about the police, or about people who want to believe the worst about the poor dead boy, like you?

Whatever he may have been doing, he was unarmed, so there was some way to stop him short of killing him. And what excuse is there for the police letting him lie on the ground, bleeding out, for 45 minutes before an ambulance showed up, not giving him first aid or CPR, just letting him die like that?


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> What happened to innocent until proven guilty?


Joey we know the answer to that, only innocent ones are the ones they approve of. Glad they are not judges.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> What happened to innocent until proven guilty?


Frankly, I think that died a long time ago. But if it didn't, then you could say the same about Obama.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Joey we know the answer to that, only innocent ones are the ones they approve of. Glad they are not judges.


Are you sure not one of us is a judge? Or at least married to one?

But, again, doesn't that describe how you judge people: the only innocent ones are the ones _you_ approve of?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> What happened to innocent until proven guilty?


You happened.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It took a week of criticism for that video to appear so I'm withholding judgement. Also the police on the street were aware of a robbery, but the victim was not identified as a suspect. Two blacks walking down the street sounds like racial profiling.



theyarnlady said:


> Guess you have not seen the video of what the young man was really doing. As usual TV charges off, not knowing what has happen , people don't stop and really think about it, and off they go. To bad so many people want to believe the worst before they even know what is really going on.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> Guess you have not seen the video of what the young man was really doing. As usual TV charges off, not knowing what has happen , people don't stop and really think about it, and off they go. To bad so many people want to believe the worst before they even know what is really going on.


Do you want to believe the best of the police before we all know what is really going on?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I was about to ask her the same thing.
> 
> Joey, does it never occur to you that you may be wrong, or at least mistaken, in some of your opinions?


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Indeed. Does that apply to the black shot mortally by the police?



joeysomma said:


> What happened to innocent until proven guilty?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I worry they get on juries.



theyarnlady said:


> Joey we know the answer to that, only innocent ones are the ones they approve of. Glad they are not judges.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I worry they get on juries.


Don't worry. Here's what will happen; I hope it cheers you up.

SATIRE ALERT SATIRE ALERT SATIRE ALERT 

BOROWITZ REPORT
TODAY 9:08 AM
*Widespread Support for Sending Politicians to Prison for Ninety-Nine Years*
BY ANDY BOROWITZ

AUSTIN (The Borowitz Report)Last weeks indictment of Texas Governor Rick Perry has sparked widespread bipartisan support for the concept of sending politicians to prison for ninety-nine years.

While Americans are divided about the merits of the specific charges levelled against Perry, there is near-unanimous agreement that imprisoning politicians for ninety-nine years is an idea worth exploring further, a poll released on Monday indicates.

According to the poll, eighty-seven per cent of voters from both parties agreed that sending politicians to prison for such a lengthy period would solve a lot of problems and make the country safer.

Additionally, when asked to name one politician they would like to see incarcerated for ninety-nine years, voters easily rattled off a dozen or more such candidates, with some voters naming as many as fifty.

Finally, when informed that imprisoning politicians for ninety-nine years might lead to overcrowding that would require the construction of costly new prisons, eighty-three per cent agreed with the statement, Money is no object.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Don't worry. Here's what will happen; I hope it cheers you up.
> 
> SATIRE ALERT SATIRE ALERT SATIRE ALERT
> 
> ...


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Made my day.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

President Barack Obama calls on the rest of the world to rid itself of the IS 'cancer'

http://www.9news.com.au/World/2014/08/21/03/47/Barack-Obama-urges-end-to-jihadist-cancer-following-beheading


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> President Barack Obama calls on the rest of the world to rid itself of the IS 'cancer'
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/World/2014/08/21/03/47/Barack-Obama-urges-end-to-jihadist-cancer-following-beheading


I cannot even open the link I am so distraught by IS. Is Australia following the States into this mess?


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> I cannot even open the link I am so distraught by IS. Is Australia following the States into this mess?


Is Australia following the States into this mess?

I hope not, but at the moment the Prime Minister is grandstanding on the world stage in an attempt to distract people's attention from the fact that he still has not managed to get his harsh budget through the Senate. Too many issues in the budget that will impact extremely harshly on the poor and needy in Australia. Julie Bishop, our Foreign Minister, is also trying to do the same.
It is an Australian Channel 9 news posting, so may only be available in Australia.
Cut and paste here.

US President Barack Obama has called on the nations of the world to join forces in exterminating the "cancerous" threat of the Islamic State, following the militant group's widely publicised murder of reporter James Foley.
Mr Obama said the entire world was appalled by the beheading of 40-year-old reporter James Foley, which the IS fighters recorded and published on the Internet.

US intelligence authorities have confirmed the video is genuine.

"There has to be a common effort to extract this cancer so it does not spread. It has to be a clear rejection of these kind of nihilistic ideologies," Mr Obama said.
"One thing we can all agree on is that a group like ISIL has no place in the 21st century," he said, using the acronym for the group when it was formerly known as the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant.
He said the group speaks for no true religion, and threatens Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

"Their victims are overwhelmingly Muslim and no faith teaches people to massacre innocents. No just god would stand for what they did yesterday and what they do every single day," Mr Obama said.

He said he had spoken to the parents of Foley, a freelance reporter who contributed to GlobalPost, AFP and other outlets before being kidnapped two years ago, and "told them we are all heartbroken at their loss."
UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has also issued a strong condemnation of Foley's murder, describing it as an "abominable crime."
IS militants have also threatened to kill another American journalist, Steven Sotloff, unless the US pulls its forces out of Iraq.
But Pentagon spokesman Rear Admiral John Kirby said the air strikes in Iraq, which have targeted IS militants for more than a week, have continued.
"We continue to conduct strikes in Iraq," he said.
"Without getting into details I can tell you that there have been additional strikes in Iraq, they're tied to the authorization through which we are conducting strikes."
The official said the air strikes were conducted in northern Iraq where a US air campaign has targeted Islamic State forces threatening civilian refugees and the Kurdish regional capital Arbil.
© ninemsn 2014

Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/08/21/03/47/barack-obama-urges-end-to-jihadist-cancer-following-beheading#IF1FVC3PdjzHtpqB.99

The above link may not work outside Australia, either.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> President Barack Obama calls on the rest of the world to rid itself of the IS 'cancer'
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/World/2014/08/21/03/47/Barack-Obama-urges-end-to-jihadist-cancer-following-beheading


Thanks for posting. It just proves that people down here in Oz may be a long way from the rest of the world but we are abreast of the current news broadcasts.

Just noticed the time and date stamp on the news broadcast, :24am August 21, 2014, It is still yesterday, Wednesday 20th August, in USA. We are not only up to date with the news we are ahead of them with the time and date also. Time and date stamp on my post here # ^ Aug 20, 14 22:39:23. My time is 10.43 am and of course you are 2 hours ahead of me. :XD: :XD:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Thanks for posting. It just proves that people down here in Oz may be a long way from the rest of the world but we are abreast of the current news broadcasts.
> 
> Just noticed the time and date stamp on the news broadcast, :24am August 21, 2014, It is still yesterday, Wednesday 20th August, in USA. We are not only up to date with the news we are ahead of them with the time and date also. Time and date stamp on my post here # ^ Aug 20, 14 22:39:23. My time is 10.43 am and of course you are 2 hours ahead of me. :XD: :XD:


You'll also outlast the rest of us. I saw "On the Beach"; I know what will happen.

Thank goodness the reaction this time is so much stronger than it was when the American journalist Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and killed sometime after 9-11. I don't recall the US government spending much time or thought on it (not that Bush had much thought to spare, though he had plenty of time).


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You'll also outlast the rest of us. I saw "On the Beach"; I know what will happen.
> 
> Thank goodness the reaction this time is so much stronger than it was when the American journalist Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and killed sometime after 9-11. I don't recall the US government spending much time or thought on it (not that Bush had much thought to spare, though he had plenty of time).


Still what can be done? IS has another journalist that they will slaughter if the States does not stop bombing Iraq. And of course that is not going to happen. Pearl got plenty of PR. So what.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Is Australia following the States into this mess?


An update on whether Australia will be committing ground troops.

Islamic State devastatingly effective: PM

AAP Thursday 21 August 2014 10:13:30 AM

Prime Minister Tony Abbott has described the Islamic State as perhaps the most effective terrorist organisation the world has seen.

The prime minister was speaking again about the shocking new video of an IS jihadist beheading American journalist James Foley, who was captured in Syria in 2012.

Mr Abbott was asked whether the British accent of the executioner was intended as a message to the West about the role of foreign fighters in the conflict.

"I have little doubt that the ISIL movement are masters of propaganda. They're masters of social media," Mr Abbott told Fairfax Radio in Melbourne.

"They are probably the most effective terrorist organisation the world has yet seen. That's why it's very important we redouble our vigilance."

Mr Abbott said the 60 or so Australians fighting with IS - also known as ISIL and ISIS - represented only a "miniscule" percentage of the country's population.

But he warned it did not take many people "to do enormous damage to countries".

Mr Abbott is adamant Australia and other Western nations will not commit combat troops to battle IS in northern Iraq.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Australia committed to assisting Northern Iraqi'an refugees and this was reported on August 14:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/defence/raaf-flies-first-aid-mission-to-stranded-iraqi-refugees/story-e6frg8yo-1227024255708?nk=ad0735888378e9c67b21e81da83f91fe#


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Still what can be done? IS has another journalist that they will slaughter if the States does not stop bombing Iraq. And of course that is not going to happen. Pearl got plenty of PR. So what.


I think that the US and ALL of her allies (including Australia) should launch a three pronged assault: water, land and air. And I think this should happen as quickly as possible. These lunatics need to be completely eradicated before they have a chance to get home to their countries of origin to wreak further atrocities.

Link below outlines why:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/james-foley-beheading-video-looks-genuine-and-the-killer-appears-to-be-a-british-person-foreign-secretary-says-9679915.html


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Thanks for posting. It just proves that people down here in Oz may be a long way from the rest of the world but we are abreast of the current news broadcasts.
> 
> Just noticed the time and date stamp on the news broadcast, :24am August 21, 2014, It is still yesterday, Wednesday 20th August, in USA. We are not only up to date with the news we are ahead of them with the time and date also. Time and date stamp on my post here # ^ Aug 20, 14 22:39:23. My time is 10.43 am and of course you are 2 hours ahead of me. :XD: :XD:


 :thumbup:


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

The trouble with these terrorist groups is that they are like the hydra--kill or stamp out one group and three more spring up in their stead.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

This Iraqi disaster has been on my mind as well as the Israeli/Hamas, and Russian/Ukraine conflicts for a while now and not necessarily in that order. My mind-set about this is defeatist at this particular point in time.

The US suffered a heinous assault per 9/11 to the World Trade Centre, Pentagon and UA flight 93. I'm sad to say it won't be the last assault for the US. Her allies (including Australia) will be subject to a similar horror but undoubtedly worse.

Who's to say these people won't silently come back to their communities and behave in the same way they did in Syria and Iraq? And we all know what has happened to innocent people in Syria and Iraq.

I think that the future of warfare will be locally driven rather than nationally driven. This is how these low life's will operate. I only hope strategic and smart minds will prevail.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Sumpleby and Wombat have very good points. But then one loses heart over world situations. I also fear our local ex cons who converted to Islam while in prison. These guys are full of hate and can probably be easy to persuade to make big trouble anywhere in the States. My older bro, the historian, told be that the Arabs never went thru a reformation, are tribal and are looking back to their former glory era. Does not sound like a good combo.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

SQM said:


> Sumpleby and Wombat have very good points. But then one loses heart over world situations. I also fear our local ex cons who converted to Islam while in prison. These guys are full of hate and can probably be easy to persuade to make big trouble anywhere in the States. My older bro, the historian, told be that the Arabs never went thru a reformation, are tribal and are looking back to their former glory era. Does not sound like a good combo.


So how does your brother, the historian, explain educated Muslims? How does your brother explain Muslim women who wear western clothing and participate in western culture?
Stereotyping and generalizing are always ugly activities.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> So how does your brother, the historian, explain educated Muslims? How does your brother explain Muslim women who wear western clothing and participate in western culture?
> Stereotyping and generalizing are always ugly activities.


Welcome back. Missed you. I did not make myself clear. We were talking about RADICAL muslims. Seems like they are living up to their stereotype.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

3 Hamas commanders killed by Israeli strikes in Gaza:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/21/us-mideast-gaza-idUSKBN0GI12O20140821


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> 3 Hamas commanders killed by Israeli strikes in Gaza:
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/21/us-mideast-gaza-idUSKBN0GI12O20140821


Great News.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Ebola Medics released from hospital:

http://www.9news.com.au/World/2014/08/21/23/46/Glimmer-of-hope-US-doctor-infected-with-Ebola-to-be-released-from-hospital


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

I can hardly speak...the most heinous crime has occurred...I'm about to faint...

http://www.shoptilyoudrop.com.au/fashion/insiders-shopping-guide/2014/8/is-this-the-death-of-skinny-jeans/


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I can hardly speak...the most heinous crime has occurred...I'm about to faint...
> 
> http://www.shoptilyoudrop.com.au/fashion/insiders-shopping-guide/2014/8/is-this-the-death-of-skinny-jeans/


ROFLMAO


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I can hardly speak...the most heinous crime has occurred...I'm about to faint...
> 
> http://www.shoptilyoudrop.com.au/fashion/insiders-shopping-guide/2014/8/is-this-the-death-of-skinny-jeans/


Ha Ha. And I just bought some skinny jeans. Definitely a step or two or three behind the the trend.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Horror!



Wombatnomore said:


> I can hardly speak...the most heinous crime has occurred...I'm about to faint...
> 
> http://www.shoptilyoudrop.com.au/fashion/insiders-shopping-guide/2014/8/is-this-the-death-of-skinny-jeans/


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

But I bet you look great. That's the true objective.



SQM said:


> Ha Ha. And I just bought some skinny jeans. Definitely a step or two or three behind the the trend.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Take a look at this:

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/08/23/15/39/cop-who-pushed-don-lemon-suspended-after-racist-rant-goes-viral

I wonder how many other police, in forces all over the world, have similar views. I have had dealings with police both professionally and privately and I have formed the conclusion that while not applying to all police officers, the police force seems attract a certain type of personality.

The thing that struck me the most through my experience is the lack of emotional intelligence among officers. There also seems to me, to be a lack of intelligence per se.

I stress, again, this obviously does not apply to all police officers. I comment on my experience only.

Don't have much respect for them I'm afraid to say.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Take a look at this:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/08/23/15/39/cop-who-pushed-don-lemon-suspended-after-racist-rant-goes-viral
> 
> ...


The clip of the officer's speech is too short to judge what he's saying. They SAY that is was a racist rant, but who knows? The officer was suspended because he pointed a gun in the face of a protester and said "I'm going to f#%$ing kill you. Here's a link.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/cop-suspended-threatening-kill-protester-ferguson-n185331

IMO, the media is using this speech to slam the Oathkeepers and make them look bad. The Oathkeepers is a group of people who have taken an oath (police, military, politicians etc) and reaffirm that oath, vowing to uphold the constitution and protect the people. As with any group of people, you have the good and the bad. The Oathkeepers saw what happened in Katrina, where law officers were ordered to go door to door confiscating guns of law abiding citizens. The group vows to refuse to follow any order that is unconstitutional. The group vows that if so ordered, they will refuse to conduct war against the American people. In a time when government is overstepping its authority and trampling on people's rights, I'm am grateful that there are those who will obey their oath, " to protect and defend the American people against all enemies, foreign and domestic". One bad apple does not spoil the whole bunch!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Here is Oathkeepers response to the governor of Missouri re Ferguson.
http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2014/08/22/open-letter-of-warning-to-governor-nixon-from-missouri-oath-keepers-2/


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Here is Oathkeepers response to the governor of Missouri re Ferguson.
> http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2014/08/22/open-letter-of-warning-to-governor-nixon-from-missouri-oath-keepers-2/


I've read a little about Oathkeepers. I think they're a pretty scary, radical group that I wouldn't want to have anything to do with.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

cookiequeen said:


> I've read a little about Oathkeepers. I think they're a pretty scary, radical group that I wouldn't want to have anything to do with.


Scary?!? How are they scary? I've never heard one scary thing about them. They vow to protect the rights of the people. Did you read the link?


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/canada/11052667/Islamic-State-recruiting-in-Canada-local-imam-warns.html


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Scary?!? How are they scary? I've never heard one scary thing about them. They vow to protect the rights of the people. Did you read the link?


I don't trust a right-wing, anti-Obama, anti-federal government paramilitary group to judge what is and what is not constitutional.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> I don't trust a right-wing, anti-Obama, anti-federal government paramilitary group to judge what is and what is not constitutional.


I felt the same way but they suggested that this was a bipartisan effort. What do you think?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> I felt the same way but they suggested that this was a bipartisan effort. What do you think?


Ok, MotherJones is little to the left, but nevertheless . . . . 
I also checked out their website and read a few other things about them, and they creep me out.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/10/oath-keepers-paramilitary-units-default


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> Ok, MotherJones is little to the left, but nevertheless . . . .
> I also checked out their website and read a few other things about them, and they creep me out.
> 
> http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/10/oath-keepers-paramilitary-units-default


I believe that governments are quite capable of turning against its citizens so the scenario, albeit distasteful, still falls in the realm of possibility. Wish the Jews in Europe had Oath Keepers.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

RE: Oathkeepers

You just heard a negative comment from cookiequeen. I trust her completely. I certainly would not discount it completely.

I just did a little research and they sound dangerous.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Scary?!? How are they scary? I've never heard one scary thing about them. They vow to protect the rights of the people. Did you read the link?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Scary?!? How are they scary? I've never heard one scary thing about them. They vow to protect the rights of the people. Did you read the link?


Who's to decide what "the rights of the people" are? Not you. And not me. And certainly not some self-appointed anti-government group.

If all you read about them is what they write about themselves (or what their allies write), it's no wonder that you've never read anything bad about them. But that just means you're not fully informed.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> I don't trust a right-wing, anti-Obama, anti-federal government paramilitary group to judge what is and what is not constitutional.


Thank you. You speak for me as well.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> One bad apple does not spoil the whole bunch!





wombatnomore said:


> I stress, again, this obviously does not apply to all police officers. I comment on my experience only.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Who's to decide what "the rights of the people" are? Not you. And not me. And certainly not some self-appointed anti-government group.
> 
> If all you read about them is what they write about themselves (or what their allies write), it's no wonder that you've never read anything bad about them. But that just means you're not fully informed.


The founders of this country decided what our rights were when they wrote The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, and The Bill of Rights.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The founders of this country decided what our rights were when they wrote The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, and The Bill of Rights.


And they are still relevant to speak for us almost 250 years later?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> And they are still relevant to speak for us almost 250 years later?


Who are we without The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution and The Bill of Rights? They're meant to stand between us and a tyrannical or dictatorial government. The United States became the land of opportunity precisely because of these rights. As we see our rights being eroded, we see the opportunities disappearing.

The Oathkeepers are misrepresented by a media that gains from the status quo. Besides alternative media, ALL media is owned by just six corporations. These corporations have tremendous influence over our government. If you want to know what the Oathkeepers stand for, you only have to look at their page. There are individuals within every group who deviate from the group's initial intent. But when judging the group, you must judge according to the official statement. http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2009/03/03/declaration-of-orders-we-will-not-obey/

The group states that there are ten orders, they will not obey. 
1) They will not obey any order to disarm the American people.
2) They will not obey any order to conduct warrantless searches.
3) They will not obey any order that causes them to detain American citizens as enemy combatants and subject them to military tribunals.
4) They will not obey any order that requires them to impose martial law.
5) They will not obey any order that subjugates any state declaring sovereignty.
6) They will not obey any order to blockade cities.
7) They will not obey any order to force Americans into detention camps.
8) They will not obey any order to assist the use of foreign troops on American soil.
9) They will not obey any order to confiscate the property of American citizens.
10) They will not obey any order to infringe upon the free speech of American citizens.
In short, they will obey the oath they took "to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign or domestic".


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The founders of this country decided what our rights were when they wrote The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, and The Bill of Rights.


And wiser heads than the Oathkeepers have been disputing their intention for well over 200 years. If everything were as obvious as you seem to think, the Supreme Court would always have unanimous findings. Surprise: they don't!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

And for those of you who think that any threat by our own government is nothing but a conspiracy theory, read this article from an Australian news source. They have no dog in this fight and state the facts. 
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/27/1027497418339.html

This isn't a democrat or republican thing. This follows through from every adminstration since Nixon's. Read about "Rex 84". Read about " garden plot". Read about "the patriot acts I and II". Read about " the NDAA". Read about "the FISA courts". Read about the presidential executive orders.

What we're seeing in Ferguson, with the National Guard being employed, is just a small taste of Rex 84. Read the rest of it. If our government weren't secretly planning for the suspension of the constitution, we wouldn't need groups like Oathkeepers. I hope that none of these things will ever come to pass. I believe that the biggest deterrent to the government instituting any of these plans is awareness of the people! If the German people had known the Nazi plans before they were in the midst of them, they wouldn't have allowed them to happen in the first place. If the Jews had known what was planned for them, they wouldn't have gone willingly. Governments seek power and control. The people can only retain their power and control with knowledge.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> And wiser heads than the Oathkeepers have been disputing their intention for well over 200 years. If everything were as obvious as you seem to think, the Supreme Court would always have unanimous findings. Surprise: they don't!


The problem lies with people who try to "interpret" something that doesn't need to be interpreted. It means what it says.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The problem lies with people who try to "interpret" something that doesn't need to be interpreted. It means what it says.


But I disagree with you about what the 2nd Amendment says. Which one of us is right?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And for those of you who think that any threat by our own government is nothing but a conspiracy theory, read this article from an Australian news source. They have no dog in this fight and state the facts.
> http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/27/1027497418339.html
> 
> This isn't a democrat or republican thing. This follows through from every adminstration since Nixon's. Read about "Rex 84". Read about " garden plot". Read about "the patriot acts I and II". Read about " the NDAA". Read about "the FISA courts". Read about the presidential executive orders.
> ...


I hate to admit it, but I really don't see anything on the Oath Keeper site that's offensive or scary. I haven't had a chance to look it over thoroughly, but at least they're _against_ the military buildup in Ferguson and _for_ allowing people to protest peacefully.

I think the group sends a confusing message by holding ostensibly reasonable positions but hobnobbing with absolute kooks like Ferguson cop Dan Page (" I'm into diversity. I kill everybody, I don't care" ). If the Oath Keepers want to be taken seriously they need to screen their members and their guest speakers a bit more carefully.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Wiser and more learned minds do not agree what it says. I'm not willing to accept what you say it says.

Do you understand what I'm saying? It's okay if you don't agree. I'm just hoping you understand others.

Would you please explain what you hear me say?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The problem lies with people who try to "interpret" something that doesn't need to be interpreted. It means what it says.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> But I disagree with you about what the 2nd Amendment says. Which one of us is right?


I agree, Purl. If you ask ten people their opinion on the 2nd Amendment you could possibly get ten different answers and your question about who is correct is totally valid. My opinion is we must keep the police and the military separate. There can't be a blurred line about what their responsibilities and duties are. This again is my opinion and I am sure there will be those who disagree. All I do know is we must protect our right to disagree with each other or no one is really free any longer.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Sorry posted something by accident on wrong thread.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I hate to admit it, but I really don't see anything on the Oath Keeper site that's offensive or scary. I haven't had a chance to look it over thoroughly, but at least they're _against_ the military buildup in Ferguson and _for_ allowing people to protest peacefully.
> 
> I think the group sends a confusing message by holding ostensibly reasonable positions but hobnobbing with absolute kooks like Ferguson cop Dan Page (" I'm into diversity. I kill everybody, I don't care" ). If the Oath Keepers want to be taken seriously they need to screen their members and their guest speakers a bit more carefully.


I think that it's very important to keep something in mind. Men who have made the military their life's career are different that the average person. They train to to kill. They talk differently. They see things differently. Their lives revolve around killing and violence. Their speech revolves around killing and violence.

I wondered if perhaps Dan Page's comments were taken out of context. So I went to you tube and watched the entire speech that he gave at an Oathkeepers meeting. His statements making rounds in the media were indeed taken out of context. First of all, he stated that he wasn't aware that it was an Oathkeepers meeting. He stated that he thought it was a church group. Second of all, he is not a republican. He stated that he hasn't voted for a republican in 35 years. Much of what he spoke of were things being done by republicans. His speech was extremely informative! I highly recommend that everyone listen to the entire speech! His career in the military put him in a position to know things that we couldn't possibly know. When he spoke his opinions, there were things I agreed with and things I did not agree with. Whether you agree with his opinions, is irrelevant. He speaks of things you will never hear of on TV. Here's a link. I hope everybody will listen to it. 





I think that the way that Dan Page behaved in Ferguson was reprehensible. He shoved a reporter and threatened to kill a protester who wouldn't move. I think he acted like the military man that he is. I also think that our police forces are becoming militarized. I think this is wrong. But I also think that Dan Page will be crucified in the media, not for only what happened at the protest but because he spoke the truth about something they don't want the people to know. His comments were purposely taken out of context to show only a snapshot and not the entire picture.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I agree, Purl. If you ask ten people their opinion on the 2nd Amendment you could possibly get ten different answers and your question about who is correct is totally valid. My opinion is we must keep the police and the military separate. There can't be a blurred line about what their responsibilities and duties are. This again is my opinion and I am sure there will be those who disagree. All I do know is we must protect our right to disagree with each other or no one is really free any longer.


One thing that bothers me about attitudes to the 2nd Amendment is that some groups think of it before any of the others (as with the Oathkeepers; their promises begin with the 2nd; the 1st doesn't show up until further down the list). Isn't it upsetting that the most important thing in life is to have as many (unregistered) guns as possible? I would prefer as few guns as necessary.

Yet, Cheeky, until sometime late in the last century, there was no controversy about gun control or registration.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Wiser and more learned minds do not agree what it says. I'm not willing to accept what you say it says.
> 
> Do you understand what I'm saying? It's okay if you don't agree. I'm just hoping you understand others.
> 
> Would you please explain what you hear me say?


I understand what you're saying, people disagree on what it means. I don't think it's open to interpretation. IMO, it makes no difference what anybody "thinks". It says exactly what it means. But even if someone were to say that it only pertains to those in a "well regulated militia", how would the people be able to form a militia if they didn't already have the right to keep and bear arms. If a situation arose where the people found it necessary to rein in or protect themselves from their government, that same government would not then, issue them arms in order for the people to form a militia. In every country that has faced tyranny, the first thing those governments did was to take away the people's right to defend themselves. They disarmed the people and made them dependent upon the government. We're already seeing the dependence on the government here in the US. We're hearing talk of disarming the people. We can no longer say that it couldn't happen here. The very fact that we're hearing talk of disarming the people, should set off alarm bells through the nation.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I agree, Purl. If you ask ten people their opinion on the 2nd Amendment you could possibly get ten different answers and your question about who is correct is totally valid. My opinion is we must keep the police and the military separate. There can't be a blurred line about what their responsibilities and duties are. This again is my opinion and I am sure there will be those who disagree. All I do know is we must protect our right to disagree with each other or no one is really free any longer.


The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, is what kept the police and the military separate. It forbid the federal government from using the military against the people. The NDAA (national defense authorization act) did away with the Posse Comitaus Act. They now allow themselves to come against the people with the entire force of the United States military.

I agree with you, but they don't care what we think!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> One thing that bothers me about attitudes to the 2nd Amendment is that some groups think of it before any of the others (as with the Oathkeepers; their promises begin with the 2nd; the 1st doesn't show up until further down the list). Isn't it upsetting that the most important thing in life is to have as many (unregistered) guns as possible? I would prefer as few guns as necessary.
> 
> Yet, Cheeky, until sometime late in the last century, there was no controversy about gun control or registration.


Because it is the second amendment that secures all of the others.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, is what kept the police and the military separate. It forbid the federal government from using the military against the people. The NDAA (national defense authorization act) did away with the Posse Comitaus Act. They now allow themselves to come against the people with the entire force of the United States military.
> 
> I agree with you, but they don't care what we think!


Which NDAA are you talking about? It's an Act that needs to be passed annually in order to fund the military.

Those of us who remember the Kent State massacre have already seen the military used against citizens. Somehow we survived the years between then and now. Don't you believe in the American people enough to think we'll continue? Of course, if democracy is done away with, as certain parties are trying to do, then I'll agree that we're done for.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Because it is the second amendment that secures all of the others.


Nonsense. Gun nuts may believe that, but people who actually understand the law don't.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Which NDAA are you talking about? It's an Act that needs to be passed annually in order to fund the military.
> 
> Those of us who remember the Kent State massacre have already seen the military used against citizens. Somehow we survived the years between then and now. Don't you believe in the American people enough to think we'll continue? Of course, if democracy is done away with, as certain parties are trying to do, then I'll agree that we're done for.


All of them! Every version of the NDAA allows the government to bring the force of the military against the people. It allows the government to kill or detain the American people without showing just cause, without a warrant and without a trial. And more! Read about it.

It makes no difference whether it's the republicans or the democrats. IMO, it's both, a tag team effort. Each side can blame the other. Both sides play an incremental role in the control of the people. I think it's a mistake not to recognize that. Remember, the NDAA was signed by both bush and obama.

IMO, the American people have become complacent. They acknowledge that their politicians are corrupt, yet they do nothing. As long as the situation doesn't affect them personally, they react like ostriches, with their proverbial heads in the sand. If it isn't on the news, it doesn't exist. It's a conspiracy theory. And yet, the news is controlled by the very people who control the politicians.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Nonsense. Gun nuts may believe that, but people who actually understand the law don't.


So, in your opinion, what was the purpose of the second amendment? Why was it included in the Bill of Rights?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think that it's very important to keep something in mind. Men who have made the military their life's career are different that the average person. They train to to kill. They talk differently. They see things differently. Their lives revolve around killing and violence. Their speech revolves around killing and violence.


I agree with you, Nebraska--Page's statements are the words of a battle-hardened warrior high on adrenalin. Unfortunately, he's no longer a soldier on the battlefield but rather a civilian cop--a position that entails keeping the peace rather than waging war.

Frankly, your position on this issue of Page and the Oath Keepers puzzles me. On one hand you support the Oath Keepers and (presumably) their efforts to demilitarize civilian law enforcement agencies--and on the other you don't have a problem with "military-minded" (and that's putting it mildly) cops on the force.

I'd truly like to understand your position. What gives?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So, in your opinion, what was the purpose of the second amendment? Why was it included in the Bill of Rights?


Since there was no standing army back then, it may have become necessary to call up a militia quickly in case of a threat. Those who were to make up the militia had to have access to weapons. Notice it says nothing about ownership, only "the right of the people to keep and bear arms." This could be accomplished by keeping the arms in central locations so that everyone who needed a gun could get to one.

Why on earth would the framers have wanted every lunatic in the country to be able to own as many guns as he felt like? They weren't crazy, and they weren't owned by the NRA.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

"the right of the people to keep and bear arms."


That statement is somewhat vague. The 'to keep' can be seen to mean private ownership. Didn't John Q. Public of that era hunt and own muskets or whatever it would have been?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I agree with you, Nebraska--Page's statements are the words of a battle-hardened warrior high on adrenalin. Unfortunately, he's no longer a soldier on the battlefield but rather a civilian cop--a position that entails keeping the peace rather than waging war.
> 
> Frankly, your position on this issue of Page and the Oath Keepers puzzles me. On one hand you support the Oath Keepers and (presumably) their efforts to demilitarize civilian law enforcement agencies--and on the other you don't have a problem with "military-minded" (and that's putting it mildly) cops on the force.
> 
> I'd truly like to understand your position. What gives?


I DO have a problem with putting military minded cops on police forces! I've been speaking against the militarization of police since day one! I'm no fan of officer Page. He deserves to be fired, without question! But I don't like it when anyone is quoted out of context. He should be fired for his actions, not because public opinion has been unfairly swayed.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> All of them! Every version of the NDAA allows the government to bring the force of the military against the people. It allows the government to kill or detain the American people without showing just cause, without a warrant and without a trial. And more! Read about it.
> 
> It makes no difference whether it's the republicans or the democrats. IMO, it's both, a tag team effort. Each side can blame the other. Both sides play an incremental role in the control of the people. I think it's a mistake not to recognize that. Remember, the NDAA was signed by both bush and obama.
> 
> IMO, the American people have become complacent. They acknowledge that their politicians are corrupt, yet they do nothing. As long as the situation doesn't affect them personally, they react like ostriches, with their proverbial heads in the sand. If it isn't on the news, it doesn't exist. It's a conspiracy theory. And yet, the news is controlled by the very people who control the politicians.


Interesting, but not true. In 2006, "President George W. Bush urged Congress to consider revising federal laws so that U.S. armed forces could restore public order and enforce laws in the aftermath of a natural disaster, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act )

Then, "In 2008, these changes in the Insurrection Act of 1807 were* repealed in their entirety, reverting to the previous wording of the Insurrection Act.* It was originally written to limit Presidential power as much as possible in the event of insurrection, rebellion, or lawlessness" (_loc.cit._).

There are some exclusions, but nothing like what you describe.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> "the right of the people to keep and bear arms."
> 
> That statement is somewhat vague. The 'to keep' can be seen to mean private ownership. Didn't John Q. Public of that era hunt and own muskets or whatever it would have been?


It's open to interpretation, the very thing Nebraska denies.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I DO have a problem with putting military minded cops on police forces! I've been speaking against the militarization of police since day one! I'm no fan of officer Page. He deserves to be fired, without question! But I don't like it when anyone is quoted out of context. He should be fired for his actions, not because public opinion has been unfairly swayed.


Mmmm...I think his actions speak plenty: shoving journalists on live TV and leveling a rifle at a crowd of unarmed civilians. I can't be absolutely certain of the chain of events, but I believe it was Page's alarming behavior that compelled people to start digging into his background.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Since there was no standing army back then, it may have become necessary to call up a militia quickly in case of a threat. Those who were to make up the militia had to have access to weapons. Notice it says nothing about ownership, only "the right of the people to keep and bear arms." This could be accomplished by keeping the arms in central locations so that everyone who needed a gun could get to one.
> 
> Why on earth would the framers have wanted every lunatic in the country to be able to own as many guns as he felt like? They weren't crazy, and they weren't owned by the NRA.


There was no standing army because the constitution forbade it. The founders were against a standing army. They considered it a threat to liberty. In Article I, section 8 of the constitution, it declares that congress shall have the power to collect taxes to raise and support armies, but no appropriations of money for that use shall be for a longer term than two years. Here are some quotes by the founders re a standing army. http://inquirer.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/the-congress-holds-the-war-powers/

The Declaration of Independence makes it perfectly clear that the founders of our country wanted to make sure that the people had the power to rid themselves of any government that infringed upon individual's unalienable rights. It declares the right of the people to alter or abolish government. You say that the people only have the right to "keep" arms, not own them. If that truly were the case, how would the people be allowed to "alter or abolish" government?

The framers of the constitution expected every man between the ages of 16-60, to serve in the militia. Therefore, every man would be allowed to "keep" a weapon. But in fact, they were required to provide their OWN weapon, so I guess they meant that every man could OWN a gun


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> "the right of the people to keep and bear arms."
> 
> That statement is somewhat vague. The 'to keep' can be seen to mean private ownership. Didn't John Q. Public of that era hunt and own muskets or whatever it would have been?


As members of the militia and even the army, every man provided his own gun.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> As members of the militia and even the army, every man provided his own gun.


Certainly that is what it looked like in documentaries and film.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Mmmm...I think his actions speak plenty: shoving journalists on live TV and leveling a rifle at a crowd of unarmed civilians. I can't be absolutely certain of the chain of events, but I believe it was Page's alarming behavior that compelled people to start digging into his background.


I agree with what you're saying about his actions. I think his actions alone are enough to cause outrage. I don't think anyone should be quoted out of context.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Certainly that is what it looked like in documentaries and film.


True! Every man was required to own their own gun. Heres an article from the James Madison Research Library, which goes into detail.
http://www.madisonbrigade.com/library_bor.htm


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Ludwicknitty said:


> Only because we didn't yet have our own military with it's own equipment.


And thank goodness we now do. In the old days our Forefathers fought battles with rifles and muskets--now we need helicopters, tanks, heavy artillery, bombs etc etc. Somehow I don't imagine they would have approved of civilians being in charge of such an arsenal. God knows I don't approve of war, but I'm pretty sure it would be impossible for Americans to fend off invaders with the contents of their gun lockers.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Interesting, but not true. In 2006, "President George W. Bush urged Congress to consider revising federal laws so that U.S. armed forces could restore public order and enforce laws in the aftermath of a natural disaster, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act )
> 
> Then, "In 2008, these changes in the Insurrection Act of 1807 were* repealed in their entirety, reverting to the previous wording of the Insurrection Act.* It was originally written to limit Presidential power as much as possible in the event of insurrection, rebellion, or lawlessness" (_loc.cit._).
> 
> There are some exclusions, but nothing like what you describe.


I apologize. You are technically correct. However, Eric Holder says that the president does have the authority to bring the force of the military against the American people. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/05/us-drone-strike_n_2813857.html

My statement about the detention of the American people is correct according to Salon and the ACLU.http://www.salon.com/2013/12/27/obama_signs_ndaa_2014_indefinite_detention_remains/
https://www.aclu.org/blog/tag/ndaa

It seems to me that BOTH the bush and the obama administrations think that they have the right to bring the force of the military against the people of the United States.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Ludwicknitty said:


> Well, what it DEFINITELY does is restrict guns to "well regulated" militias. Otherwise, they would've just written that every single person, regardless of militias could have a gun.
> 
> Why even mention the militia aspect unless they wanted to make the point that gun ownership should be discriminate?
> 
> ...


Read this.http://www.madisonbrigade.com/library_bor.htm


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Ludwicknitty said:


> I give you credit for being consistent in this regard.
> 
> I would like to know where the NRA and the Tea Party members are in regards to supporting the Ferguson residents for standing up for their rights.
> 
> ...


You may not agree with me but I am always consistent. When I'm mistaken, I admit it.

I have no idea where the tea party and the NRA are on the issue of Ferguson. I follow neither. However, I'm not aware of the tea party having a militia. Did you make that up?

The blm did treat the people at the Bundy ranch in a similar manner. They tried to force the protesters into a "first amendment zone". They pushed and shoved them. They tasered them and they aimed their guns at them. They threatened to kill them. Militias from the various states showed up to defend the rights of the people.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Ludwicknitty said:


> I think it was included mostly because the country was new and had no official military and it was a way to from an ad hoc military.
> 
> They used the term "well regulated" which meant it wasn't just supposed to be any bubba who took a basic gun class. It was not only supposed to be a GROUP of people who were trained, but a group that was WELL trained.
> 
> Which tells me, it's supposed to have a VERY high training level. Near expert gunmanship and it's supposed to be in the context of a militia. A militia being a body of citizens *enrolled* for military service. Enrolled. Not just some dangerous conspiracy theorists banding together to shoot down their paranoid delusions, or someone with only basic training. They wanted the militias to be as formal as possible in order to DEVELOP a formal military.


What an imagination! You assume far too much! 
Read the link I posted previously. Or read this.

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/guncontrol/a/Second-Amendment-History.htm


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Ludwicknitty said:


> Only because we didn't yet have our own military with it's own equipment.


The founders were against a standing army. They thought it was a threat to liberty.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The founders were against a standing army. They thought it was a threat to liberty.


Why such unwavering faith in the Founders? They could not even conceive of what life would be like almost 250 years later. Are they really still relevant? Did they believe they were carving in stone?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It seems to me that BOTH the bush and the obama administrations think that they have the right to bring the force of the military against the people of the United States.


I believe you're right, but they wouldn't be the first. Remember what happened to Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbor? Those poor folks were taken away by soldiers with fixed bayonets and jammed into squalid internment camps guarded by military personnel. For most of my life I've believed that such a thing could never happen again, but after 9/11 I changed my mind. It's awfully easy to picture American Muslims being rounded up and interned in the event of some major terrorist strike. And even easier to imagine the lame-brained justifications and excuses made by "good" Americans for such an act. Heck, we're hearing it now. Folks on "patriotic" websites and even some of the righties we all know and love (NOT) seem prepared to lock up and/or deport the whole bunch of them--American citizens or not.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> And thank goodness we now do. In the old days our Forefathers fought battles with rifles and muskets--now we need helicopters, tanks, heavy artillery, bombs etc etc. Somehow I don't imagine they would have approved of civilians being in charge of such an arsenal. God knows I don't approve of war, but I'm pretty sure it would be impossible for Americans to fend off invaders with the contents of their gun lockers.


I don't think our founders could have ever imagined the present degree of man's inhumanity to man. However, in their day they believed that the people should be armed to defend themselves against a tyrannical government. So, who knows?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> I believe you're right, but they wouldn't be the first. Remember what happened to Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbor? Those poor folks were taken away by soldiers with fixed bayonets and jammed into squalid internment camps guarded by military personnel. For most of my life I've believed that such a thing could never happen again, but after 9/11 I changed my mind. It's awfully easy to picture American Muslims being rounded up and interned in the event of some major terrorist strike. And even easier to imagine the lame-brained justifications and excuses made by "good" Americans for such an act. Heck, we're hearing it now. Folks on "patriotic" websites and even some of the righties we all know and love (NOT) seem prepared to lock up and/or deport the whole bunch of them--American citizens or not.


Thanks for the reminder, Mos. "Enemy Alien" is a label that had been used here successfully before.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Ludwicknitty said:


> With their vote.
> 
> That's why they created a form of democracy, which was a representative republic.
> 
> ...


I'm going to go watch a movie with dh. I'll respond later.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> There was no standing army because the constitution forbade it. The founders were against a standing army. They considered it a threat to liberty. In Article I, section 8 of the constitution, it declares that congress shall have the power to collect taxes to raise and support armies, but no appropriations of money for that use shall be for a longer term than two years. Here are some quotes by the founders re a standing army. http://inquirer.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/the-congress-holds-the-war-powers/
> 
> The Declaration of Independence makes it perfectly clear that the founders of our country wanted to make sure that the people had the power to rid themselves of any government that infringed upon individual's unalienable rights. It declares the right of the people to alter or abolish government. You say that the people only have the right to "keep" arms, not own them. If that truly were the case, how would the people be allowed to "alter or abolish" government?
> 
> The framers of the constitution expected every man between the ages of 16-60, to serve in the militia. Therefore, every man would be allowed to "keep" a weapon. But in fact, they were required to provide their OWN weapon, so I guess they meant that every man could OWN a gun


I give up. Let it be as you claim it is. I'm done.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You may not agree with me but I am always consistent. When I'm mistaken, I admit it.
> 
> I have no idea where the tea party and the NRA are on the issue of Ferguson. I follow neither. However, I'm not aware of the tea party having a militia. Did you make that up?
> 
> The blm did treat the people at the Bundy ranch in a similar manner. They tried to force the protesters into a "first amendment zone". They pushed and shoved them. They tasered them and they aimed their guns at them. They threatened to kill them. Militias from the various states showed up to defend the rights of the people.


Yes, and then the government troops simply threw up their hands and walked away, realizing that the situation was escalating out of control and it could be settled more effectively in court.

Hmmm...that seems to support Ludwicknitty's point that modern warfare is fought most effectively through the ballot box, the courts, and economically. I agree with her there. I've been following that mess over in the Ukraine, and I think the Separatists and their Russian allies have doomed themselves by insisting on traditional armaments to get what they want. IMHO that's a very old-fashioned notion--the best way to fight is to squeeze one's opponent economically. That's exactly what's happening to Russia--the US hasn't had to fire a shot but they're being slowly strangled by the world's economic octopus.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Certainly that is what it looked like in documentaries and film.


The ones that were made at the time? Or the ones that were written more recently by people who had their own axes to grind?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> The ones that were made at the time? Or the ones that were written more recently by people who had their own axes to grind?


We are talking about America right after the revolutionary war.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> True! Every man was required to own their own gun. Heres an article from the James Madison Research Library, which goes into detail.
> http://www.madisonbrigade.com/library_bor.htm


Oh, the James Madison Research Library that Wayne LaPierre writes for? How could such a "brigade" be biased? Hmmm?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Ludwicknitty said:


> Well, what it DEFINITELY does is restrict guns to "well regulated" militias. Otherwise, they would've just written that every single person, regardless of militias could have a gun.
> 
> Why even mention the militia aspect unless they wanted to make the point that gun ownership should be discriminate?
> 
> ...


Thank you. You're absolutely right, Ludwicknitty, despite your Germanic name.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Ludwicknitty said:


> I think it was included mostly because the country was new and had no official military and it was a way to from an ad hoc military.
> 
> They used the term "well regulated" which meant it wasn't just supposed to be any bubba who took a basic gun class. It was not only supposed to be a GROUP of people who were trained, but a group that was WELL trained.
> 
> Which tells me, it's supposed to have a VERY high training level. Near expert gunmanship and it's supposed to be in the context of a militia. A militia being a body of citizens *enrolled* for military service. Enrolled. Not just some dangerous conspiracy theorists banding together to shoot down their paranoid delusions, or someone with only basic training. They wanted the militias to be as formal as possible in order to DEVELOP a formal military.


Wait. Hold on a minute. You think people had to give their names, and there were records concerning who owned a gun? How un-American. (How sarcastic.)


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I believe you're right, but they wouldn't be the first. Remember what happened to Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbor? Those poor folks were taken away by soldiers with fixed bayonets and jammed into squalid internment camps guarded by military personnel. For most of my life I've believed that such a thing could never happen again, but after 9/11 I changed my mind. It's awfully easy to picture American Muslims being rounded up and interned in the event of some major terrorist strike. And even easier to imagine the lame-brained justifications and excuses made by "good" Americans for such an act. Heck, we're hearing it now. Folks on "patriotic" websites and even some of the righties we all know and love (NOT) seem prepared to lock up and/or deport the whole bunch of them--American citizens or not.


It may even have begun after 9/11 but was stopped. I had a couple of Muslim patients at the time, and two teenage boys told me some of their teachers and school administrators would blame them for everything that went wrong, and they were frequently stopped by police in the street. The fact that they were only 12 or 13 probably saved them from worse trouble.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> We are talking about America right after the revolutionary war.


No, you were talking about what films and documentaries showed about America after the revolution. I was questioning the accuracy of those films and documentaries.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> No, you were talking about what films and documentaries showed about America after the revolution. I was questioning the accuracy of those films and documentaries.


we were talking about films and documentaries that were made about the Revolutionary War. The common man had a gun. They hunted. No Whole Foods for the urban hunter.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It may even have begun after 9/11 but was stopped. I had a couple of Muslim patients at the time, and two teenage boys told me some of their teachers and school administrators would blame them for everything that went wrong, and they were frequently stopped by police in the street. The fact that they were only 12 or 13 probably saved them from worse trouble.


Yes, my husband has had the same problem. He's Serbian but has often been mistaken for a Muslim--after 9/11 I begged him to shave off his beard. We couldn't go anywhere without getting the stink eye and being subjected to hostile comments, and DH's bearded friend (also Serbian) had it even worse. He was once tailed more than twenty miles by the police, pulled over any number of times and hassled, and had his truck vandalized. I simply don't know what gets into people. I myself lost a family member in 9/11 (SIL's cousin), but I'd never take it out on other Americans--or anyone--like that.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

To pieces of breaking news, one sad and the other happy.

An American journalist kidnapped in Syria nearly two years ago has been freed and handed over to UN representatives.
Peter Theo Curtis was freed from captivity on Sunday, after being abducted in Antakya, Turkey, where he planned to enter Syria&#65533;in October 2012.


-- Acclaimed actor-director Richard Attenborough has died, the British Broadcasting Corporation reported Sunday, citing his son. Attenborough was 90.

Back later, going for a late breakfast. Now 10.04 am Monday morning. I just thought I would bring a little up to the minute news.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Have you noticed here on KP how often our comments are misunderstood? "It is what it says" is not true.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I understand what you're saying, people disagree on what it means. I don't think it's open to interpretation. IMO, it makes no difference what anybody "thinks". It says exactly what it means. But even if someone were to say that it only pertains to those in a "well regulated militia", how would the people be able to form a militia if they didn't already have the right to keep and bear arms. If a situation arose where the people found it necessary to rein in or protect themselves from their government, that same government would not then, issue them arms in order for the people to form a militia. In every country that has faced tyranny, the first thing those governments did was to take away the people's right to defend themselves. They disarmed the people and made them dependent upon the government. We're already seeing the dependence on the government here in the US. We're hearing talk of disarming the people. We can no longer say that it couldn't happen here. The very fact that we're hearing talk of disarming the people, should set off alarm bells through the nation.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Which NDAA are you talking about? It's an Act that needs to be passed annually in order to fund the military.
> 
> Those of us who remember the Kent State massacre have already seen the military used against citizens. Somehow we survived the years between then and now. Don't you believe in the American people enough to think we'll continue? Of course, if democracy is done away with, as certain parties are trying to do, then I'll agree that we're done for.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I'm with you Purl.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Nonsense. Gun nuts may believe that, but people who actually understand the law don't.


 :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Since there was no standing army back then, it may have become necessary to call up a militia quickly in case of a threat. Those who were to make up the militia had to have access to weapons. Notice it says nothing about ownership, only "the right of the people to keep and bear arms." This could be accomplished by keeping the arms in central locations so that everyone who needed a gun could get to one.
> 
> Why on earth would the framers have wanted every lunatic in the country to be able to own as many guns as he felt like? They weren't crazy, and they weren't owned by the NRA.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for the updated information.



Poor Purl said:


> Interesting, but not true. In 2006, "President George W. Bush urged Congress to consider revising federal laws so that U.S. armed forces could restore public order and enforce laws in the aftermath of a natural disaster, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act )
> 
> Then, "In 2008, these changes in the Insurrection Act of 1807 were* repealed in their entirety, reverting to the previous wording of the Insurrection Act.* It was originally written to limit Presidential power as much as possible in the event of insurrection, rebellion, or lawlessness" (_loc.cit._).
> 
> There are some exclusions, but nothing like what you describe.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> Certainly that is what it looked like in documentaries and film.


 :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Excellent point.



Ludwicknitty said:


> I give you credit for being consistent in this regard.
> 
> I would like to know where the NRA and the Tea Party members are in regards to supporting the Ferguson residents for standing up for their rights.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Interesting thoughts. Thanks for sharing.



Ludwicknitty said:


> I think it was included mostly because the country was new and had no official military and it was a way to from an ad hoc military.
> 
> They used the term "well regulated" which meant it wasn't just supposed to be any bubba who took a basic gun class. It was not only supposed to be a GROUP of people who were trained, but a group that was WELL trained.
> 
> Which tells me, it's supposed to have a VERY high training level. Near expert gunmanship and it's supposed to be in the context of a militia. A militia being a body of citizens *enrolled* for military service. Enrolled. Not just some dangerous conspiracy theorists banding together to shoot down their paranoid delusions, or someone with only basic training. They wanted the militias to be as formal as possible in order to DEVELOP a formal military.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ludwicknitty said:


> With their vote.
> 
> That's why they created a form of democracy, which was a representative republic.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The founders were against a standing army. They thought it was a threat to liberty.


Oh come on. Think of WWII. A standing army is a threat to liberty? How would the militia have done against the Nazis?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> Why such unwavering faith in the Founders? They could not even conceive of what life would be like almost 250 years later. Are they really still relevant? Did they believe they were carving in stone?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Ludwicknitty said:


> Holy God. Did she really post the corporate shill Wayne LaPierre?
> 
> See, this is the problem, they are being manipulated by corporations, and they didn't even know it. They don't understand that sites like that are propaganda sites.
> 
> ...


To be honest, I don't think they're hiding anything when they call themselves the Madison brigade. That gives it away, to anyone who can hear dog whistles.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> we were talking about films and documentaries that were made about the Revolutionary War. The common man had a gun. They hunted. No Whole Foods for the urban hunter.


"The common man" more likely had an ax. But thanks for the lecture.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't think our founders could have ever imagined the present degree of man's inhumanity to man. However, in their day they believed that the people should be armed to defend themselves against a tyrannical government. So, who knows?


Right. Our forefathers could not envision what our country would need to survive hundreds of years later, so they wisely left room for us to change as needed to survive.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I believe you meant to say, " Believe what you want. I'm through trying to make sense of it. "



Poor Purl said:


> I give up. Let it be as you claim it is. I'm done.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Wait. Hold on a minute. You think people had to give their names, and there were records concerning who owned a gun? How un-American. (How sarcastic.)


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Yes, my husband has had the same problem. He's Serbian but has often been mistaken for a Muslim--after 9/11 I begged him to shave off his beard. We couldn't go anywhere without getting the stink eye and being subjected to hostile comments, and DH's bearded friend (also Serbian) had it even worse. He was once tailed more than twenty miles by the police, pulled over any number of times and hassled, and had his truck vandalized. I simply don't know what gets into people. I myself lost a family member in 9/11 (SIL's cousin), but I'd never take it out on other Americans--or anyone--like that.


Sometimes I think people use tragedies like that in order not to feel guilty when they act like pigs. You're unfortunate in that you can distinguish between people and not blame one for the sins of another. Most people don't bother; they're happy to hate an entire group indiscriminately.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> No, you were talking about what films and documentaries showed about America after the revolution. I was questioning the accuracy of those films and documentaries.


I thought the same thing, Purl. Cowboys & Indians for example. I would never use a movie to prove accuracy.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put.



Ludwicknitty said:


> Holy God. Did she really post the corporate shill Wayne LaPierre?
> 
> See, this is the problem, they are being manipulated by corporations, and they didn't even know it. They don't understand that sites like that are propaganda sites.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Eve.



EveMCooke said:


> To pieces of breaking news, one sad and the other happy.
> 
> An American journalist kidnapped in Syria nearly two years ago has been freed and handed over to UN representatives.
> Peter Theo Curtis was freed from captivity on Sunday, after being abducted in Antakya, Turkey, where he planned to enter Syria�in October 2012.
> ...


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I'm with you Purl.


Susan took it even earlier than that, with the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII. Interesting that German-Americans, who look more like "us," weren't interned.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Susan took it even earlier than that, with the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII. Interesting that German-Americans, who look more like "us," weren't interned.


Didn't a single soul think of this and speak up? The idea is so obviously flawed and racist....oh no.... not the r-word.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I believe you meant to say, " Believe what you want. I'm through trying to make sense of it. "


Okay. I did mean that.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Okay. I did mean that.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: That's my girl!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

There's an interesting review by Cass Sunstein http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/jun/05/justice-stevens-refounding-father/ of a recent book by John Paul Stevens (remember him? Supreme Court justice?) called _Six Amendments: How and Why We Should Change the Constitution_. Here's an excerpt from the review:



> As a member of the Supreme Court from 1975 to 2010, John Paul Stevens was widely liked and admired. Modest and eclectic, he could not be pigeonholed, and he displayed a consistent openness to both facts and arguments. He frequently emphasized that under the American Constitution, the government must be impartial, and he exemplified impartiality with his own capacity to listen, his unfailing humility, and his insistence on giving respectful attention to opposing views. Stevens also revered, and reveres, the American Constitution. It is nothing short of remarkable that at the age of ninety-four, he has published a book calling for no fewer than six new amendments to the nations founding document. No Supreme Court justice, sitting or retired, has ever done anything of this kind.
> 
> It is noteworthy, though perhaps not surprising, that in every case, Stevens wants an amendment that will overturn what he sees as a wrongheaded decision by the Supreme Court. In each of these cases, Stevens was a dissenter. It is also noteworthy that Stevenss broadest theme is the importance of democratic rule. His general goal is to promote self-government, which, as he sees it, has been badly compromised by recent Supreme Court rulings.
> 
> ...


******************************************************************************
I'm impressed by the knowledge of a couple of you, who are so certain about what the language means.

If you need to be told who Sunstein is, Wikipedia says "Cass Robert Sunstein is an American legal scholar, particularly in the fields of constitutional law, administrative law, environmental law, and law and behavioral economics, who was the Administrator of the White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs in the Obama administration.[2] For 27 years, Sunstein taught at the University of Chicago Law School.[3] Sunstein is currently the Robert Walmsley University Professor[4] and Felix Frankfurter Professor of Law at Harvard Law School."

He seems to disagree with some of you about the obviousness of the meaning of the 2nd Amendment.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> To pieces of breaking news, one sad and the other happy.
> 
> An American journalist kidnapped in Syria nearly two years ago has been freed and handed over to UN representatives.
> Peter Theo Curtis was freed from captivity on Sunday, after being abducted in Antakya, Turkey, where he planned to enter Syria�in October 2012.
> ...


Thanks for the announcements, Eve. I remember Attenborough most from a movie called something like _Seance on a Wet Afternoon_, where he does a wonderful job of playing a very creepy character. Also from _Jurassic Park_, where he's not creepy at all.

And cheers for Peter Theo Curtis. It's good to hear this kind of news.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Have you noticed here on KP how often our comments are misunderstood? "It is what it says" is not true.


Nothing of any real value is obvious. If the Bill of Rights is valuable (which I believe), it takes a bit of study to understand.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Oh come on. Think of WWII. A standing army is a threat to liberty? How would the militia have done against the Nazis?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I thought the same thing, Purl. Cowboys & Indians for example. I would never use a movie to prove accuracy.


Not even if it starred John Wayne? or Ronald Reagan?

Come to think of it, neither of those patriots served in the military.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Didn't a single soul think of this and speak up? The idea is so obviously flawed and racist....oh no.... not the r-word.


I'm sure there were many who objected, but they weren't in charge, and, you know, Pearl Harbor.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Ludwicknitty said:


> I think it was included mostly because the country was new and had no official military and it was a way to from an ad hoc military.
> 
> They used the term "well regulated" which meant it wasn't just supposed to be any bubba who took a basic gun class. It was not only supposed to be a GROUP of people who were trained, but a group that was WELL trained.
> 
> Which tells me, it's supposed to have a VERY high training level. Near expert gunmanship and it's supposed to be in the context of a militia. A militia being a body of citizens *enrolled* for military service. Enrolled. Not just some dangerous conspiracy theorists banding together to shoot down their paranoid delusions, or someone with only basic training. They wanted the militias to be as formal as possible in order to DEVELOP a formal military.


Well, in truth our founders were opposed to a standing army. They believed that standing armies always led to tyranny. They also believed that the militia were the people. Here are some quotes from the founders on the subject of standing armies.
http://itistreason.wordpress.com/2011/09/18/founders-quotes-on-the-dangers-of-a-standing-army-and-the-need-for-a-constitutional-militia/


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Ludwicknitty said:


> Only because we didn't yet have our own military with it's own equipment.


Not so! They intended NOT to have a standing army.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Not even if it starred John Wayne? or Ronald Reagan?
> 
> Come to think of it, neither of those patriots served in the military.


I guess it's time to rest our case.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Ludwicknitty said:


> With their vote.
> 
> That's why they created a form of democracy, which was a representative republic.
> 
> ...


We aren't really a democracy. We are to be strictly a republic. Over the years, people have referred to us as a " democratic republic" but that was never intended by the founders of this country. A democracy protects the majority whereas a republic protects the individual. The point was never to stop the waring(sic), not having a standing army was to stop the warring. The point of a republic is to protect the rights of the individual.

I agree with your statement that we are no longer a democracy (OR a republic). I also agree that corporate cronyism is the rule of the day. But IMO, the rest of your statements are merely your opinions, backed by nothing.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Not even if it starred John Wayne? or Ronald Reagan?
> 
> Come to think of it, neither of those patriots served in the military.


Reagan was in the Army Reserve. Due to poor eyesight he was put on limited service and never went overseas.

http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/reference/military.html

MILITARY SERVICE OF RONALD REAGAN

Ronald Wilson Reagan enrolled in a series of home-study Army Extension Courses on 18 March 1935. After completing 14 of the courses, he enlisted in the Army Enlisted Reserve on 29 April 1937, as a Private assigned to Troop B, 322nd Cavalry at Des Moines, Iowa. He was appointed Second Lieutenant in the Officers Reserve Corps of the Cavalry on 25 May 1937. On June 18 of that year Reagan, who had just moved to Los Angeles to begin his film career, accepted his Officers Commission and was assigned to the 323rd Cavalry.

Lieutenant Reagan was ordered to active duty on 19 April 1942. Due to eyesight difficulties, he was classified for limited service only, which excluded him from serving overseas. His first assignment was at the San Francisco Port of Embarkation at Fort Mason, California, as liaison officer of the Port and Transportation Office. Upon the request of the Army Air Forces (AAF), he applied for a transfer from the Cavalry to the AAF on 15 May 1942; the transfer was approved on 9 June 1942. He was assigned to AAF Public Relations and subsequently to the 1st Motion Picture Unit in Culver City, California. Reagan was promoted to First Lieutenant on 14 January 1943 and was sent to the Provisional Task Force Show Unit of This Is The Army at Burbank, California. Following this duty, he returned to the 1st Motion Picture Unit, and on 22 July 1943 was promoted to Captain.

In January 1944, Captain Reagan was ordered to temporary duty in New York City to participate in the opening of the sixth War Loan Drive. He was assigned to the 18th AAF Base Unit, Culver City, California on 14 November 1944, where he remained until the end of the war. He was recommended for promotion to Major on 2 February 1945, but this recommendation was disapproved on July 17 of that year. On 8 September 1945, he was ordered to report to Fort MacArthur, California, where he was separated from active duty on 9 December 1945.

While on active duty with the 1st Motion Picture Unit and the 18th Army Air Forces Base Unit, Captain Reagan served as Personnel Officer, Post Adjutant, and Executive Officer. By the end of the war, his units had produced some 400 training films for the Army Air Forces.

Reagans Reserve Commission automatically terminated on 1 April 1953. However, he became Commander-in-Chief of all U.S. Armed Forces when he became President on 20 January 1981.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Why such unwavering faith in the Founders? They could not even conceive of what life would be like almost 250 years later. Are they really still relevant? Did they believe they were carving in stone?


The founders put into effect a process for amending the constitution. The second amendment still stands.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Not so! They intended NOT to have a standing army.


I hate to point this out, but for someone who often makes mistakes, you sound awfully certain about your insight into the thoughts of the founders.

And I know you can send me to websites that say the same thing, but most of your sites are biased. And I doubt that I'd be able to find a proof for a statement like "The founders did not intend NOT to have a standing army," negatives being hard to prove.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I believe you're right, but they wouldn't be the first. Remember what happened to Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbor? Those poor folks were taken away by soldiers with fixed bayonets and jammed into squalid internment camps guarded by military personnel. For most of my life I've believed that such a thing could never happen again, but after 9/11 I changed my mind. It's awfully easy to picture American Muslims being rounded up and interned in the event of some major terrorist strike. And even easier to imagine the lame-brained justifications and excuses made by "good" Americans for such an act. Heck, we're hearing it now. Folks on "patriotic" websites and even some of the righties we all know and love (NOT) seem prepared to lock up and/or deport the whole bunch of them--American citizens or not.


The internment of Americans of Japanese descent will always be a stain on this country. I don't believe they will be the last. I'm not sure if Muslims will be targeted. There is a government plan in place, (developed during the Reagan administration) called Rex 84. It is a plan to lock up those who disagree with the government. IMO, the "patriotic websites" and the "righties" are trying to sound the alarm and wake up the people. The libs are in denial. They refuse to entertain the possibility of it happening again.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Have you noticed here on KP how often our comments are misunderstood? "It is what it says" is not true.


You were not misunderstood. I acknowledged your opinion and expressed my own.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wow. From now on I'll watch what I say around you. But wasn't there a big deal made about how he "believed" he had served when in fact he hadn't. Maybe it was just that he believed he'd been in battle. Anyway, you deserve at least a point for this.

I know if I have to serve, I'd like it to be via a correspondence course.



sumpleby said:


> Reagan was in the Army Reserve. Due to poor eyesight he was put on limited service and never went overseas.
> 
> http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/reference/military.html
> 
> ...


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I hate to point this out, but for someone who often makes mistakes, you sound awfully certain about your insight into the thoughts of the founders.
> 
> And I know you can send me to websites that say the same thing, but most of your sites are biased. And I doubt that I'd be able to find a proof for a statement like "The founders did not intend NOT to have a standing army," negatives being hard to prove.


Well here's some QUOTES of the founders! You may not like the website but that doesn't change the quotes! Quotes are not biased! 
http://itistreason.wordpress.com/2011/09/18/founders-quotes-on-the-dangers-of-a-standing-army-and-the-need-for-a-constitutional-militia/


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The founders put into effect a process for amending the constitution. The second amendment still stands.


The book I cited earlier (okay, I cited a review of it) is all about the process for amending the Constitution. You may be interested in reading the whole review, which is way too long to post.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The internment of Americans of Japanese descent will always be a stain on this country. I don't believe they will be the last. I'm not sure if Muslims will be targeted. There is a government plan in place, (developed during the Reagan administration) called Rex 84. It is a plan to lock up those who disagree with the government. IMO, the "patriotic websites" and the "righties" are trying to sound the alarm and wake up the people. The libs are in denial. They refuse to entertain the possibility of it happening again.


Uh oh, here we go again. Time to make my goodbyes.

Good night.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Well here's some QUOTES of the founders! You may not like the website but that doesn't change the quotes! Quotes are not biased!
> http://itistreason.wordpress.com/2011/09/18/founders-quotes-on-the-dangers-of-a-standing-army-and-the-need-for-a-constitutional-militia/


The choice of what to quote is where the bias lies.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Yes, and then the government troops simply threw up their hands and walked away, realizing that the situation was escalating out of control and it could be settled more effectively in court.
> 
> Hmmm...that seems to support Ludwicknitty's point that modern warfare is fought most effectively through the ballot box, the courts, and economically. I agree with her there. I've been following that mess over in the Ukraine, and I think the Separatists and their Russian allies have doomed themselves by insisting on traditional armaments to get what they want. IMHO that's a very old-fashioned notion--the best way to fight is to squeeze one's opponent economically. That's exactly what's happening to Russia--the US hasn't had to fire a shot but they're being slowly strangled by the world's economic octopus.


I disagree with your assessment of the Ukraine situation. I believe that our government and that of our allies, went to Ukraine to foment trouble. NGOs were used to pay people to revolt and that the overthrow of their government was not the choice of the people. I believe this was done to obstruct Russia's oil shipments to Europe. Further, I don't believe that Russia is being slowly strangled. They have deals with China and the other BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China and south Africa). The BRICS are conducting trade in currencies other than the dollar. They have even formed the BRICS Bank to bypass dealings with the federal reserve and the IMF.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Oh, the James Madison Research Library that Wayne LaPierre writes for? How could such a "brigade" be biased? Hmmm?


Here's another! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Acts_of_1792

"shall within six months thereafter, provide himself..." with a musket, bayonet and belt, two spare flints, a cartridge box with 24 bullets and a knapsack. Men owning rifles were required to provide a powder horn, 1/4 pound of gunpowder, 20 rifle balls, a shooting pouch, and a knapsack.

If you google it, there are over 4 million results. Does it really matter who says it? It doesn't change the facts.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Wait. Hold on a minute. You think people had to give their names, and there were records concerning who owned a gun? How un-American. (How sarcastic.)


Just because she thinks it, doesn't mean that it happened. There were no records concerning who owned a gun! People often made their own.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Oh come on. Think of WWII. A standing army is a threat to liberty? How would the militia have done against the Nazis?


Agree or not, the founders never intended the US to be the world's police force. They wouldn't have gotten involved and they would have used it as an example as to why the people should not have allowed the Nazis to disarm them. They were very clear about a standing army being a threat to liberty. http://itistreason.wordpress.com/2011/09/18/founders-quotes-on-the-dangers-of-a-standing-army-and-the-need-for-a-constitutional-militia/
In addition, Article I, Section 8 of the constitution allowed them to tax or borrow to support an army but only for less than two years.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> "The common man" more likely had an ax. But thanks for the lecture.


Are you being serious? Do you really think that the common man hunted with an ax?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Right. Our forefathers could not envision what our country would need to survive hundreds of years later, so they wisely left room for us to change as needed to survive.


They DID leave us a process for changing the constitution! Its called an amendment. The second amendment has neither been changed nor annulled. It still stands!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Here's another! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Acts_of_1792
> 
> "shall within six months thereafter, provide himself..." with a musket, bayonet and belt, two spare flints, a cartridge box with 24 bullets and a knapsack. Men owning rifles were required to provide a powder horn, 1/4 pound of gunpowder, 20 rifle balls, a shooting pouch, and a knapsack.
> 
> If you google it, there are over 4 million results. Does it really matter who says it? It doesn't change the facts.


There's an interesting review by Cass Sunstein http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/jun/05/justice-stevens-refounding-father/ of a recent book by John Paul Stevens (remember him? Supreme Court justice?) called Six Amendments: How and Why We Should Change the Constitution. Here's an excerpt from the review:

Lets begin with gun control. The Second Amendment states: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. For over two hundred years, federal courts generally interpreted the Second Amendment quite narrowly. In their view, the opening reference to a well regulated Militia limited the scope of the amendment. *The Second Amendment did not create a freestanding individual right to have guns.*

Well-organized groups, above all the National Rifle Association, rejected this interpretation and insisted that the Second Amendment did indeed create an individual right. For many years, their view was widely regarded as unpersuasive, a form of ideology masquerading as constitutional law. Stevens notes that as late as 1991, *even retired Chief Justice Warren Burgera well-known conservative, appointed by President Richard Nixonsaid that the Second Amendment has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word fraud, on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.*


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I believe you meant to say, " Believe what you want. I'm through trying to make sense of it. "


The fact that she doesn't like the source, doesn't change the veracity of my statement. I posted another source. It makes perfect sense from either.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> There's an interesting review by Cass Sunstein http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/jun/05/justice-stevens-refounding-father/ of a recent book by John Paul Stevens (remember him? Supreme Court justice?) called _Six Amendments: How and Why We Should Change the Constitution_. Here's an excerpt from the review:
> 
> ******************************************************************************
> I'm impressed by the knowledge of a couple of you, who are so certain about what the language means.
> ...


First of all, the fact that he wants to "change" it acknowledges that it doesn't support his position. Second, he says, "For over two hundred years,federal courts generally interpreted the Second Amendment quite narrowly.  In their view, the open reference to " well regulated militia" limited the scope of the amendment. The Second Amendment did not create a freestanding individual right to have guns.". This is not true. 
http://civilliberty.about.com/od/guncontrol/a/Second-Amendment-History.htm


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Nothing of any real value is obvious. If the Bill of Rights is valuable (which I believe), it takes a bit of study to understand.


I agree!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I hate to point this out, but for someone who often makes mistakes, you sound awfully certain about your insight into the thoughts of the founders.
> 
> And I know you can send me to websites that say the same thing, but most of your sites are biased. And I doubt that I'd be able to find a proof for a statement like "The founders did not intend NOT to have a standing army," negatives being hard to prove.


I linked QUOTES! You can find them on any but liberal sites, because they don't want you to know what the founders meant! They reinterpret history.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> The choice of what to quote is where the bias lies.


I quote the statements that back my position. Why would I do otherwise? You're free to rebut them with quotes of your own. If you choose not to, it doesn't change what I'm saying or my evidence of such.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> There's an interesting review by Cass Sunstein http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/jun/05/justice-stevens-refounding-father/ of a recent book by John Paul Stevens (remember him? Supreme Court justice?) called Six Amendments: How and Why We Should Change the Constitution. Here's an excerpt from the review:
> 
> Lets begin with gun control. The Second Amendment states: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. For over two hundred years, federal courts generally interpreted the Second Amendment quite narrowly. In their view, the opening reference to a well regulated Militia limited the scope of the amendment. *The Second Amendment did not create a freestanding individual right to have guns.*
> 
> Well-organized groups, above all the National Rifle Association, rejected this interpretation and insisted that the Second Amendment did indeed create an individual right. For many years, their view was widely regarded as unpersuasive, a form of ideology masquerading as constitutional law. Stevens notes that as late as 1991, *even retired Chief Justice Warren Burgera well-known conservative, appointed by President Richard Nixonsaid that the Second Amendment has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word fraud, on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.*


Yup! I had actually read this even before you posted it the first time. It doesn't say anything about the fact that militia members provided their own guns. Where's the relevance?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My comment was a general one. I rest my case.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You were not misunderstood. I acknowledged your opinion and expressed my own.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Wow. From now on I'll watch what I say around you. But wasn't there a big deal made about how he "believed" he had served when in fact he hadn't. Maybe it was just that he believed he'd been in battle. Anyway, you deserve at least a point for this.
> 
> I know if I have to serve, I'd like it to be via a correspondence course.


 :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> There's an interesting review by Cass Sunstein http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/jun/05/justice-stevens-refounding-father/ of a recent book by John Paul Stevens (remember him? Supreme Court justice?) called Six Amendments: How and Why We Should Change the Constitution. Here's an excerpt from the review:
> 
> Lets begin with gun control. The Second Amendment states: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. For over two hundred years, federal courts generally interpreted the Second Amendment quite narrowly. In their view, the opening reference to a well regulated Militia limited the scope of the amendment. *The Second Amendment did not create a freestanding individual right to have guns.*
> 
> Well-organized groups, above all the National Rifle Association, rejected this interpretation and insisted that the Second Amendment did indeed create an individual right. For many years, their view was widely regarded as unpersuasive, a form of ideology masquerading as constitutional law. Stevens notes that as late as 1991, *even retired Chief Justice Warren Burgera well-known conservative, appointed by President Richard Nixonsaid that the Second Amendment has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word fraud, on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.*


\

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I have nothing to add. Neither does anyone else.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I quote the statements that back my position. Why would I do otherwise? You're free to rebut them with quotes of your own. If you choose not to, it doesn't change what I'm saying or my evidence of such.


In your mind, which is closed.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The internment of Americans of Japanese descent will always be a stain on this country. I don't believe they will be the last. I'm not sure if Muslims will be targeted. There is a government plan in place, (developed during the Reagan administration) called Rex 84. It is a plan to lock up those who disagree with the government. IMO, the "patriotic websites" and the "righties" are trying to sound the alarm and wake up the people. The libs are in denial. They refuse to entertain the possibility of it happening again.


Hmmm...it would appear from what I've seen that the righties who believe in FEMA concentration camps think that _they_ will be the primary victims of mass incarceration, and that's why I find it impossible to swallow their theories. Let's face it, roughly half of our Senators and Reps are righties, and they haven't exactly been rendered powerless. Utra-conservative Ted Cruz had the power to almost single-handedly tie the federal government up in knots for weeks--do you really believe he and his ilk could be bullied or strong-armed into signing orders for the roundup of himself and his fellow righties?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Not so! They intended NOT to have a standing army.


I believe you're correct, Nebraska. But as you yourself said earlier, our modern world is something our Forefathers couldn't have dreamed off. True, they may have boggled at the notion of organized armed forces, but then too they would have been shocked and disapproving at our present-day realities of votes for women and the abolition of slavery. Many would argue that the Bible is the word of the all-seeing God and therefore is applicable in any and all circumstances, but the same can't be said for the Declaration of Independence and Constitution and all the rest. These things are the word of _men_--brilliant, far-seeing men, but men all the same. They were not demigods who could peer a thousand years into the future and know what the world would be like.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Hmmm...it would appear from what I've seen that the righties who believe in FEMA concentration camps think that _they_ will be the primary victims of mass incarceration, and that's why I find it impossible to swallow their theories. Let's face it, roughly half of our Senators and Reps are righties, and they haven't exactly been rendered powerless. Utra-conservative Ted Cruz had the power to almost single-handedly tie the federal government up in knots for weeks--do you really believe he and his ilk could be bullied or strong-armed into signing orders for the roundup of himself and his fellow righties?


You're right! The "righties" do think they will be the victims of incarceration. They think that because they think they are the only ones who will stand up to the government. Which is really quite foolish, considering the firepower of the military. IMO, there will be a series of catastrophic events that will make people think that the camps are the place to be.

IMO, the people are merely pawns in some grand chess match. The congressmen and senators are maybe rooks, knights and bishops. When everything goes to he)), they too will become irrelevant. They play their role in the game but it isn't they who hold the true power. The real game is played behind the scenes where very few are allowed. The bankers and the corporate titans, they're the ones who move the peices around the chess board. They hold the power to control. JMO.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I believe you're correct, Nebraska. But as you yourself said earlier, our modern world is something our Forefathers couldn't have dreamed off. True, they may have boggled at the notion of organized armed forces, but then too they would have been shocked and disapproving at our present-day realities of votes for women and the abolition of slavery. Many would argue that the Bible is the word of the all-seeing God and therefore is applicable in any and all circumstances, but the same can't be said for the Declaration of Independence and Constitution and all the rest. These things are the word of _men_--brilliant, far-seeing men, but men all the same. They were not demigods who could peer a thousand years into the future and know what the world would be like.


The Declaration of Independence is a statement. It is never changing. However the founders put into the Constitution, a way for future generations to change it. The Constitution can be changed by passing an amendment. From what I understand, there are two ways an amendment can be made. Two thirds of the house and the senate must vote for an amendment. Or the states can call for a Constitutional Convention. Two thirds of the states must vote for the "Con Con" to take place and for an amendment to pass, it must have 3/4 of the vote. There is often an unknown danger in calling for a Constitutional Convention. Once there, the delegates (chosen by state legislators) can change any part of the Constitution, not just the part that the people sent them there to change.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, the people are merely pawns in some grand chess match. The congressmen and senators are maybe rooks, knights and bishops. When everything goes to he)), they too will become irrelevant. They play their role in the game but it isn't they who hold the true power. The real game is played behind the scenes where very few are allowed. The bankers and the corporate titans, they're the ones who move the peices around the chess board. They hold the power to control. JMO.


I couldn't agree with you more!

:thumbup:


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The Declaration of Independence is a statement. It is never changing. However the founders put into the Constitution, a way for future generations to change it. The Constitution can be changed by passing an amendment. From what I understand, there are two ways an amendment can be made. Two thirds of the house and the senate must vote for an amendment. Or the states can call for a Constitutional Convention. Two thirds of the states must vote for the "Con Con" to take place and for an amendment to pass, it must have 3/4 of the vote. There is often an unknown danger in calling for a Constitutional Convention. Once there, the delegates (chosen by state legislators) can change any part of the Constitution, not just the part that the people sent them there to change.


So true. I've often thought that, after some 250 years, the thing could use some serious revisions, but goodness knows what would result. The nation is completely polorized and citizens can't seem to agree on a single thing--the document emerging from a 21st century Constitutional Convention would undoubtedly be the stuff of nightmares.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> So true. I've often thought that, after some 250 years, the thing could use some serious revisions, but goodness knows what would result. The nation is completely polorized and citizens can't seem to agree on a single thing--the document emerging from a 21st century Constitutional Convention would undoubtedly be the stuff of nightmares.


I definitely agree with you! IMO, any attempt to revise the Constitution would result in fewer rights for the people and social upheaval. But I also believe that there are those who seek social upheaval, to do away with the Constitution altogether. There are those who seek a one world government and our Constitution doesn't fit into their plans. 
http://www.arewelivinginthelastdays.com/com/quotes.html

I know it's a wonky site but it puts all the quotes in one place, so I didn't have to post multiple links.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The fact that she doesn't like the source, doesn't change the veracity of my statement. I posted another source. It makes perfect sense from either.


You seem to think that by repeating what is now the Republican party line (and I know you say you're not a Republican, but they've eaten this up entirely) you'll convince others of your rightness. But I'm not buying it. Repetition of a half-truth doesn't make it any more truthful, though the mass of voters may come to believe it.

Did you read that book excerpt (which I cut down specially for you) about the 2nd Amendment? There are very respectable jurists and historians who see things from a totally different perspective, who know how complicated such things get, and who are more convincing to thinking people than repetitions of recently-made-up half-truths.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> First of all, the fact that he wants to "change" it acknowledges that it doesn't support his position. Second, he says, "For over two hundred years,federal courts generally interpreted the Second Amendment quite narrowly. In their view, the open reference to " well regulated militia" limited the scope of the amendment. The Second Amendment did not create a freestanding individual right to have guns.". This is not true.
> http://civilliberty.about.com/od/guncontrol/a/Second-Amendment-History.htm


I guess I didn't make it clear. That was a review by one man (CS) of a book by another (JPS). Some of it was written by one, some by the other - I tried to leave in the quotes to make it clear, but apparently it didn't work.

The Supreme Court Justice wants to change the Second and a few other Amendments. The legal scholar discusses things from a historical point of view.

The man in your link, Ben Garrett, seems serious and well-intentioned, but his self-description shows where his heart lies:


Ben Garrett said:


> Ben Garrett
> 
> As a lifelong hunter and hunting advocate, I have shot, handled and admired many different types of firearms. As a homeowner, husband and father, I've used other types of firearms for home defense. As a competition shooter, I've used still other types of firearms at the range and at skeet shoots. These guns range from the light .17 caliber rifle to the powerful .300 ultra magnum to the "military-style" AR-15. From .22 handguns to .357 magnum revolvers. But one thing they all have in common is that there are as many people passionate about their prohibition as there are people passionate about their unrestricted ownership. From the National Rifle Association to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, from the Gun Owners of America to the Million Moms, let's explore America's great debate over the Second Amendment together.


Do you think John Paul Stevens (94 years old), whom you should have heard of (he only stepped down from SCOTUS in 2010), has an ax to grind? Is he part of a conspiracy to remove guns from everyone? Or could he simply believe that there's been too little regulation lately of something that seriously needs regulating, just as drugs do?

I think this conversation is going nowhere. I won't read your links from groups who call themselves brigades, and you don't have to read mine from people with long histories of scholarship.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> First of all, the fact that he wants to "change" it acknowledges that it doesn't support his position.


 No it doesn't. It only acknowledges that it's too open to interpretation by one side or the other.


> Second, he says, "For over two hundred years,federal courts generally interpreted the Second Amendment quite narrowly. In their view, the open reference to " well regulated militia" limited the scope of the amendment. The Second Amendment did not create a freestanding individual right to have guns.". This is not true.


Another point: What you call "not true" is a description of the legal writing on the subject. Of course the description is true.

I also think that from the point of view of modesty, you ought to at least admit that your beliefs (and that's what they are, second hand) don't take precedence over seriously thought-out opinions by people who've been studying the matter for well more than two years.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I linked QUOTES! You can find them on any but liberal sites, because they don't want you to know what the founders meant! They reinterpret history.


You linked a carefully selected group of quotations that appear to support your opinion. I have no doubt that someone else could find an equally biased set of quotations that support mine. I don't want to spend any more time on this. Your choice of sources from bloggers and gun buffs will never convince me. My choice of sources from legal scholars and Supreme Court justices will never convince you.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You seem to think that by repeating what is now the Republican party line (and I know you say you're not a Republican, but they've eaten this up entirely) you'll convince others of your rightness. But I'm not buying it. Repetition of a half-truth doesn't make it any more truthful, though the mass of voters may come to believe it.
> 
> Did you read that book excerpt (which I cut down specially for you) about the 2nd Amendment? There are very respectable jurists and historians who see things from a totally different perspective, who know how complicated such things get, and who are more convincing to thinking people than repetitions of recently-made-up half-truths.


I'm starting to get lost in what you're saying. What are the "made-up half-truths"? That the founders were against having a standing army or that the members of the militias provided their own guns? Or both? Is your opinion backed by any sort of evidence at all, or is it based upon what someone else thinks or writes? I don't understand why you challenge quotes from the founders and yet post none of your own to present the other side.

I read the excerpt from the book that you posted. Actually, I read that quite some time ago. I don't disagree that " some" reputable jurists and historians see things from a different perspective. I do disagree that for over two hundred years, people accepted his version. I showed you where the Supreme Court has repeatly upheld the individual's right to bear arms. Obviously, his ideas are not universally accepted.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Yup! I had actually read this even before you posted it the first time. It doesn't say anything about the fact that militia members provided their own guns. Where's the relevance?


I think I meant to attach this to a different message.

Frankly, nothing I say will have any relevance to you because we start from different first principles. So I think I'm pulling out of this argument because it's fruitless for both of us. (As usual, though, I may decide to step in later. In the meantime, I have a physical therapy appointment to go to.)


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Quote: Poor Purl

I guess I didn't make it clear. That was a review by one man (CS) of a book by another (JPS). Some of it was written by one, some by the other - I tried to leave in the quotes to make it clear, but apparently it didn't work.

The Supreme Court Justice wants to change the Second and a few other Amendments. The legal scholar discusses things from a historical point of view.

The man in your link, Ben Garrett, seems serious and well-intentioned, but his self-description shows where his heart lies:
Ben Garrett wrote:
Ben Garrett

As a lifelong hunter and hunting advocate, I have shot, handled and admired many different types of firearms. As a homeowner, husband and father, I've used other types of firearms for home defense. As a competition shooter, I've used still other types of firearms at the range and at skeet shoots. These guns range from the light .17 caliber rifle to the powerful .300 ultra magnum to the "military-style" AR-15. From .22 handguns to .357 magnum revolvers. But one thing they all have in common is that there are as many people passionate about their prohibition as there are people passionate about their unrestricted ownership. From the National Rifle Association to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, from the Gun Owners of America to the Million Moms, let's explore America's great debate over the Second Amendment together.


Do you think John Paul Stevens (94 years old), whom you should have heard of (he only stepped down from SCOTUS in 2010), has an ax to grind? Is he part of a conspiracy to remove guns from everyone? Or could he simply believe that there's been too little regulation lately of something that seriously needs regulating, just as drugs do?

I think this conversation is going nowhere. I won't read your links from groups who call themselves brigades, and you don't have to read mine from people with long histories of scholarship.




I read it! I understood it. I had no problem following what Justice Stevens wrote. Neither did I have a problem understanding WHO Justice Stevens is. I made two points to Justice Steven's opinion. One, the fact that he wants to change it, acknowledges that it does not say what he wants it to. Second, he claimed that the Second Amendment had been generally interpreted "his way" for over 200 years. I posted a link that showed evidence to the contrary. You only take note of the author. Did you not notice that it referenced Supreme Court decisions to the contrary of Justice Steven's words? Bliss vs Commonwealth 1822, Dred Scott vs Sandford 1856, DC vs Heller 2008, McDonald vs Chicago 2010. I posted this to show that his beliefs were not the generally accepted beliefs for over 200 years.

I don't think Justice Stevens has an ax to grind. I disagree with him. The First Amendment still allows that!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Another point: What you call "not true" is a description of the legal writing on the subject. Of course the description is true.
> 
> I also think that from the point of view of modesty, you ought to at least admit that your beliefs (and that's what they are, second hand) don't take precedence over seriously thought-out opinions by people who've been studying the matter for well more than two years.


The Supreme Court ruled in favor of individual rights on multiple occasions. How is that, my opinion or my belief? It is a fact. Justice Stevens is entitled to his "opinion". But that's all it is. His statement that for over 200 years, federal courts believed as he does, is not true.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You linked a carefully selected group of quotations that appear to support your opinion. I have no doubt that someone else could find an equally biased set of quotations that support mine. I don't want to spend any more time on this. Your choice of sources from bloggers and gun buffs will never convince me. My choice of sources from legal scholars and Supreme Court justices will never convince you.


It is the very words of the founders that ought to convince you. Not mine or anybody else's. "Someone else" may find quotes in reference to the militia. But they will not find quotes negating the quotes that I posted. You may choose to rely upon the "opinions" of scholars and Supreme Court Justices on what the founders MEANT. I choose to believe what THEY THEMSELVES, said.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I think I meant to attach this to a different message.
> 
> Frankly, nothing I say will have any relevance to you because we start from different first principles. So I think I'm pulling out of this argument because it's fruitless for both of us. (As usual, though, I may decide to step in later. In the meantime, I have a physical therapy appointment to go to.)


I hope your physical therapy goes well! Get strong!


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Here is Oathkeepers response to the governor of Missouri re Ferguson.
> http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2014/08/22/open-letter-of-warning-to-governor-nixon-from-missouri-oath-keepers-2/


I read as much about the Oathkeepers as I could stomach. Just what we need, another trigger happy bunch of bozos. Here are some questions that popped into my mind:

Why don't police officers use their tazers>

Don't police officers have binoculars to get a good view of someone far enough away from theme to make visual identification unreliable?

Why on earth do police officers need to shoot to kil an elerly Vietnames lady in her own back yard whennd assi all she had in her hand was a vegetable peeler?

Why was Oscar Brand assassinated by BART p0lice (the most incompetent bunch of cowboys in existance) when he was already face down on the ground?

Why shouldn't police officers shoot to wound, thus rendering a crook whose whole attention suddenly shifts from doing whatever he/she planned to do to the fact that they're wounded, incapacetated and in pain?

One answer is that as criminals have becomed better armed, our police officers have had to do the same. Not only do they have improved arms, police officers have become trigger happy vigilantes who are scared to death every time they have to go out on the streets.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> This is reportedly from Michael Brown's face book. He sure looks like an innocent boy just walking down the center of the street just minding his own business. Not!


Uh-huh. This from KSAT.com (channel 12 news) regarding the supposed image of Michael Brown:

NEWS
KC officer faces review for Michael Brown Facebook posts

POSTED AUGUST 19, 2014, 4:04 AM
UPDATED AUGUST 19, 2014, 4:04 AM

Bonyen Lee & DeAnn Smith
Kansas City, MO - A Kansas City Police Department officer vented on Facebook about the Michael Brown shooting, and now he faces an internal review.

Officer Marc Catron's postings have produced outrage on social media, particularly because he made strong comments about Michael Brown. He shared a picture that he and others have claimed is Brown in a compromising position, but it's actually an accused killer from Oregon.

A spokesman for the Kansas City Police Department said this is a personnel issue that will be addressed with the officer. The department also provided a copy of the department's eight-page social media policy.

"Because members of this department are held to a higher standard than general members of the public, the online activities of members of this department shall reflect such professional expectations and standards," the department policy states.

Two cousins were accused in Oregon of using a sledge hammer to kill their great-grandmother last year. In one of the photos, Joda Cain has a wad of money stuffed in his mouth while pointing a gun at the camera.

People have posted this photo of Cain to Facebook, including KCTV5's Facebook page, claiming that it's Brown, when it's not. Catron posted the photo of Cain to his Facebook page and wrote, "I'm sure young Michael Brown is innocent and just misunderstood. I'm sure he is a pillar of the Ferguson community."

Catron also spoke about the violence that has rocked Ferguson over the past week since a police officer shot the unarmed teen.

"Remember how white people rioted after OJ's acquittal? Me neither," according to a Facebook post that Catron shared on his own Facebook page.

Some outraged residents shared their posts on KCTV5's Facebook page.

Sarah Jackson saw the posts and she contacted the police department brass. She said she is concerned about such racially insensitive posts by a police officer during such a tumultuous time.

"Right now with all the tension going on in Ferguson and there's a lot of uncertainty right now and I feel like those pictures were demeaning and judgmental, very one-sided," Jackson said. "These are the people that serve and protect us. And more than one wrong doesn't make a right."


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> This is reportedly from Michael Brown's face book. He sure looks like an innocent boy just walking down the center of the street just minding his own business. Not!


Does he still deserve to be shot to death?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> Does he still deserve to be shot to death?


Don't even bother, SQM. The picture's a fake...that's an image of murder suspect Joda Cain of Oregon.

Joey's attempt to smear a dead man by posting lies is shameless and shocking. I'm appalled.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> Only * IF* he was a physical threat to Officer Wilson, especially if he was bum rushing the injured officer after he was told to stop.


Thanks Mrs. Somma,

However, I don't exactly know what a bum rush it. I picture it like Michael Brown, after the first shot, did run to the cop to defend himself. It was probably a reflex for him. He tried to street fight with a deadly weapon. Sad whatever happened but hopefully some good will emerge out of this.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Don't even bother, SQM. The picture's a fake...that's an image of murder suspect Joda Cain of Oregon.
> 
> Joey's attempt to smear a dead man by posting lies is shameless and shocking. I'm appalled.


Gee! That was really reckless to post, if that picture was a fake. Let us assume that Mrs. Somma forgot to check her source.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> Gee! That was really reckless to post, if that picture was a fake. Let us assume that Mrs. Somma forgot to check her source.


You're generous to a fault, SQM. Possibly you're right, but this still burns me up. If Joey has any sense of decency she'll report her "error" to Admin and ask them to take that post down.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I read as much about the Oathkeepers as I could stomach. Just what we need, another trigger happy bunch of bozos. Here are some questions that popped into my mind:
> 
> Why don't police officers use their tazers>
> 
> ...


A very good set of questions, which I'm sure most of us wanted to ask.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> This is reportedly from Michael Brown's face book. He sure looks like an innocent boy just walking down the center of the street just minding his own business. Not!


So he deserved to die?

Here you are, insisting that the termination of a pregnancy is murder, but the termination of an actual - not potential - life is fine.

BTW, are you aware that tear gas is an abortifacient? How often do you protest its use?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Uh-huh. This from KSAT.com (channel 12 news) regarding the supposed image of Michael Brown:
> 
> NEWS
> KC officer faces review for Michael Brown Facebook posts
> ...


Who said "A lie can travel around the world before the truth can tie its shoes," or something like that? Thank you for the truth. The guy in the picture doesn't even look like Michael Brown, but, y'know, they all look alike.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Don't even bother, SQM. The picture's a fake...that's an image of murder suspect Joda Cain of Oregon.
> 
> Joey's attempt to smear a dead man by posting lies is shameless and shocking. I'm appalled.


I'm not. I expect such things from her. If she were to apologize, I'd be astounded.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Thanks Mrs. Somma,
> 
> However, I don't exactly know what a bum rush it. I picture it like Michael Brown, after the first shot, did run to the cop to defend himself. It was probably a reflex for him. He tried to street fight with a deadly weapon. Sad whatever happened but hopefully some good will emerge out of this.


It can only be good if the entire Ferguson PD were fired and replaced by people with feeling and common sense. Including more than 3 black men.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Gee! That was really reckless to post, if that picture was a fake. Let us assume that Mrs. Somma forgot to check her source.


This attempt to smear a dead man is not quite as trivial as - for instance - posting someone else's PM in public. Now, that's forgivable.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I know this may come across as crass but watching the funeral on CNN, it seems like the family are becoming celebs from all of this.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> You're generous to a fault, SQM. Possibly you're right, but this still burns me up. If Joey has any sense of decency she'll report her "error" to Admin and ask them to take that post down.


I'll let you know when you can stop holding your breath, Susan.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Shame on you Joey, check your facts before you post.

http://www.kgw.com/story/news/crime/2014/08/19/joda-cain-michael-brown/14284129/


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Shame on you Joey, check your facts before you post.
> 
> http://www.kgw.com/story/news/crime/2014/08/19/joda-cain-michael-brown/14284129/


Think she'll apologize?


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Think she'll apologize?


What??? and admit she was wrong?? I doubt it, but I also hope she does, it is beyond inflammatory.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Only * IF* he was a physical threat to Officer Wilson, especially if he was bum rushing the injured officer after he was told to stop.


"especially if he was bum rushing the injured officer"

What does that even mean? Rushing at the officer bum first?


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> "especially if he was bum rushing the injured officer"
> 
> What does that even mean? Rushing at the officer bum first?


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bum%20rush?s=t


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> "especially if he was bum rushing the injured officer"
> 
> What does that even mean? Rushing at the officer bum first?


Two countries separated by a common language. We'd have called that a "butt rush." A bum is usually a drunk on the street. Anyway, the phrase really is "bum's rush," and Joey didn't use it right.



Whoops, thanks to Cindy S, I got a quick comeuppance. Apparently while I was sleeping, the phrase "bum rush" came into the language. Joey may have used it correctly, but it still wasn't right.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bum%20rush?s=t


Thanks.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Two countries separated by a common language. We'd have called that a "butt rush." A bum is usually a drunk on the street. Anyway, the phrase really is "bum's rush," and Joey didn't use it right.


Yes, well over on D&P a photograph x 2 of baby wombat with genitals exposed to depict someone they know.

Such finesse.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Yes, well over on D&P a photograph x 2 of baby wombat with genitals exposed to depict someone they know.
> 
> Such finesse.


But they're such ladies, and such good friends. Jeez! I'd go over to see it, but I'd have to wade through dozens of kissy-face messages before I got to the important one.

(What they're doing to you is the definition of "bum's rush": getting you out of there as fast as possible.)


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Two countries separated by a common language. We'd have called that a "butt rush." A bum is usually a drunk on the street. Anyway, the phrase really is "bum's rush," and Joey didn't use it right.
> 
> 
> 
> Whoops, thanks to Cindy S, I got a quick comeuppance. Apparently while I was sleeping, the phrase "bum rush" came into the language. Joey may have used it correctly, but it still wasn't right.


No comeuppance intended, and I do think I like "butt rush" better

:shock:


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Yes, well over on D&P a photograph x 2 of baby wombat with genitals exposed to depict someone they know.
> 
> Such finesse.


Yes, well, from small minds come childish behaviors often seen on that thread.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> Yes, well, from small minds come childish behaviors.


I have to check it out too.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> I have to check it out too.


Saw it--I know the snap wasn't meant as a compliment, but I actually thought the little wombat was cute. And so tiny! In one of the pictures you can see the woman's pinkie, and it's about the same length as the little creature's leg.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Saw it--I know the snap wasn't meant as a compliment, but I actually thought the little wombat was cute. And so tiny! In one of the pictures you can see the woman's pinkie, and it's about the same length as the little creature's leg.


I agree. She (now, here's a wombat whose sex is known  ) looks so relaxed and cheerful, leaning back like that. And what a nice piece of knitting she's on.

I'm sure they did it to annoy you, but living well is the best revenge. Weren't you a nurse? You've seen girl-baby's genitals before. She's cute and tiny, unlike the beasts making fun of her.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I said: "This is *reportedly* from Michael Brown's face book." no proof provided. just an opinion.


Check the post right after the fraudulent photo.
So you knew it might be fraudulent and posted it anyway to smear someone?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I said: "This is *reportedly* from Michael Brown's face book." no proof provided. just an opinion.


Is this all you can say to justify posting a smear on a murdered young man? "Don't blame me. I posted the picture, with a nasty comment, but I covered my arse when I did it."

I'm sure you believe you have a soul, but it's a damaged one. All that hand-wringing over the "murdered" unborn, but you won't even accept the responsibility for what you did to a murdered young man.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> BTW, are you aware that tear gas is an abortifacient? How often do you protest its use?


I had no idea. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Uh-huh. This from KSAT.com (channel 12 news) regarding the supposed image of Michael Brown:
> 
> NEWS
> KC officer faces review for Michael Brown Facebook posts
> ...


Thanks for sharing this , Susan! Very important information.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It can only be good if the entire Ferguson PD were fired and replaced by people with feeling and common sense. Including more than 3 black men.


I've been lax and I'm curious. Do you happen to know how many officers are on the force?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> "especially if he was bum rushing the injured officer"
> 
> What does that even mean? Rushing at the officer bum first?


Ahahahahaha! OMG, I hope you were joking. I got a good laugh over this!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I've been lax and I'm curious. Do you happen to know how many officers are on the force?


Wikipedia: "The Ferguson Police Department includes 82 personnel including 54 commissioned officers and 20 civilian support staff. The officers are all police academy graduates and are certified peace officers by the Missouri Department of Public Safety."
To get a real feel for the place, visit http://www.fergusoncity.com/ and wait for all the pictures to show.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> Check the post right after the fraudulent photo.
> So you knew it might be fraudulent and posted it anyway to smear someone?


Isn't that the usual way they do it? So sloppy.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> Gee! That was really reckless to post, if that picture was a fake. Let us assume that Mrs. Somma forgot to check her source.


ROLF!!!!!

:XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Another point: What you call "not true" is a description of the legal writing on the subject. Of course the description is true.
> 
> I also think that from the point of view of modesty, you ought to at least admit that your beliefs (and that's what they are, second hand) don't take precedence over seriously thought-out opinions by people who've been studying the matter for well more than two years.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Agreed.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The ignorance and poor judgement of the police officer is matched by joeysomma for posting this photo on KP. Furthermore I would add the adjective "sloppy" to both for not bothering to check sources. A new low point has been reached.

And to think that tensions were just beginning to calm down in Ferguson......



susanmos2000 said:


> Uh-huh. This from KSAT.com (channel 12 news) regarding the supposed image of Michael Brown:
> 
> NEWS
> KC officer faces review for Michael Brown Facebook posts
> ...


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Wikipedia: "The Ferguson Police Department includes 82 personnel including 54 commissioned officers and 20 civilian support staff. The officers are all police academy graduates and are certified peace officers by the Missouri Department of Public Safety."
> To get a real feel for the place, visit http://www.fergusoncity.com/ and wait for all the pictures to show.


Thanks Purl! I didn't intend for you to have to look it up. I only thought if you'd already read it.... Lazy me!


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> I said: "This is* reportedly* from Michael Brown's face book. I never said it positively was. I was mistaken. I have been corrected. Thank you for the proof.


Regardless, posting something like this is extremely inflammatory. I stand by my suggestion that you check facts before you post stuff like this.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> Regardless, posting something like this is extremely inflammatory. I stand by my suggestion that you check facts before you post stuff like this.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Regardless, posting something like this is extremely inflammatory. I stand by my suggestion that you check facts before you post stuff like this.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: And that she apologize, at least to the Brown family if not to everyone here, for doing such a stupid, hurtful thing.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> Regardless, posting something like this is extremely inflammatory. I stand by my suggestion that you check facts before you post stuff like this.


I would have immediately looked further. Especially as it looks nothing like the pictures of Michael Brown that were already published. Even Joey, has gone on and on about how huge this 18 year old was. The guy in the photo, that she just "reported on" is nowhere near the size of Michael Brown and looks nothing like him. IMO, it is irresponsible to pass along rumors especially when they prove themselves to be false.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: And that she apologize, at least to the Brown family if not to everyone here, for doing such a stupid, hurtful thing.


In her mind, the fact that someone else corrected her, was sufficient.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> In her mind, the fact that someone else corrected her, was sufficient.


I guess if a person is certain God will forgive her no matter what she does, no apology to anyone else is necessary.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks Purl! I didn't intend for you to have to look it up. I only thought if you'd already read it.... Lazy me!


I had read it sometime last week, but why would I remember the details. It's enough to know that in a city with approximately 60% black and 40% white citizens, the black/white ratio in the PD was about 5%/95%.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And her mind is all that counts to her?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> In her mind, the fact that someone else corrected her, was sufficient.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> A very good set of questions, which I'm sure most of us wanted to ask. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


I long to read the replies. :thumbup:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I agree. She (now, here's a wombat whose sex is known  ) looks so relaxed and cheerful, leaning back like that. And what a nice piece of knitting she's on.
> 
> I'm sure they did it to annoy you, but living well is the best revenge. Weren't you a nurse? You've seen girl-baby's genitals before. She's cute and tiny, unlike the beasts making fun of her.


That's a lovely way to look at it - the photo I mean. I don't consider myself prudish but I've always had a thing about photographing the genitals of infants, be they human or animal. Photo's of my son as a baby and toddler are testament to this with a strategically placed rubber duck in all of his bath photos! Have to laugh really.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Cease-fire agreement reached say Palestinians and official announcement imminent:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/26/us-mideast-gaza-idUSKBN0GM11320140826


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I had read it sometime last week, but why would I remember the details. It's enough to know that in a city with approximately 60% black and 40% white citizens, the black/white ratio in the PD was about 5%/95%.


You'd sure never know that 60/40 stuff by looking at the photos posted on the town website! Almost without exception, every citizen depicted was Caucasian. Even before the shooting this fact alone would have raised the red flag for me.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Cease-fire agreement reached say Palestinians and official announcement imminent:
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/26/us-mideast-gaza-idUSKBN0GM11320140826


Hopefully this is correct. This crisis seems to be going nowhere. Now if only the other arab states would do something about IS.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Hopefully this is correct. This crisis seems to be going nowhere. Now if only the other arab states would do something about IS.


Brokered by Egypt. Just on news now, Egyptian and Palestinians officially announcing. Israel has yet to comment.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Just reported: at 7.00pm cease-fire will commence. ABC News Australia.

Just confirmed by Mahmoud Abbas.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Cease-fire agreement reached say Palestinians and official announcement imminent:
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/26/us-mideast-gaza-idUSKBN0GM11320140826


What struck me as I was reading this was,

"Cairo's initiative, Palestinian officials said, called for an indefinite halt to seven weeks of hostilities, the immediate opening of Gaza's blockaded crossings with Israel and Egypt and a widening of the enclave's fishing zone in the Mediterranean.".

An indefinite halt? For how long? Until hamas decides to start bombing Israel again? I don't trust hamas to abide by any agreement. IMO, this will turn out to be a short term cease fire. Israel is in an impossible situation. She will always be in danger.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> That's a lovely way to look at it - the photo I mean. I don't consider myself prudish but I've always had a thing about photographing the genitals of infants, be they human or animal. Photo's of my son as a baby and toddler are testament to this with a strategically placed rubber duck in all of his bath photos! Have to laugh really.


Human babies tend to grow into older children and adults, who can be embarrassed about having their parts exposed. This little smiling wombat won't even know.

Can she really be smiling? She certainly looks that way in the pictures.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Human babies tend to grow into older children and adults, who can be embarrassed about having their parts exposed. This little smiling wombat won't even know.
> 
> Can she really be smiling? She certainly looks that way in the pictures.


Sure does--I think that's what tugged on so many folks' heartstrings (mine included, of course).
It's funny how biologically programmed we are to respond to anything that resembles a smile. A baby's first smile is a huge event in his or her parents' lives, and we even like to see that upturned mouth on animals' faces, where it doesn't mean much.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Just reported: at 7.00pm cease-fire will commence. ABC News Australia.
> 
> Just confirmed by Mahmoud Abbas.


But Abbas has no influence over Hamas. Of what use is his confirmation?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I must have turned into an awful cynic. I yawned and thought this sounds like an attempt to say the other side broke the agreement when they never agreed to it....whatever 'it' is.



Poor Purl said:


> But Abbas has no influence over Hamas. Of what use is his confirmation?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I must have turned into an awful cynic. I yawned and thought this sounds like an attempt to say the other side broke the agreement when they never agreed to it....whatever 'it' is.


Me too.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> But Abbas has no influence over Hamas. Of what use is his confirmation?


Was writing as it was being reported on ABC News Australia. Abbas was the messenger and representative of the Palestinians I suppose.

I listened to the 'expert' commentary following this and the general consensus was that Hamas "appears" to have emerged from the crisis, not as the 'winner' but as a serious contender in the region; that they're not going anywhere and that Israel and the US are going to have to accept this.

Scary.

Latest:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/26/us-mideast-gaza-idUSKBN0GM11320140826


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Was writing as it was being reported on ABC News Australia. Abbas was the messenger and representative of the Palestinians I suppose.
> 
> I listened to the 'expert' commentary following this and the general consensus was that Hamas "appears" to have emerged from the crisis, not as the 'winner' but as a serious contender in the region; that they're not going anywhere and that Israel and the US are going to have to accept this.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link. There was one sentence I found particularly telling:

"After the ceasefire began, crowds and traffic filled the streets of Gaza. Car horns blared and recorded chants praising God sounded from mosque loudspeakers. *Celebratory gunfire killed one Palestinian and wounded 19 others, hospital officials said.*" Not exactly my idea of a celebration.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Thanks for the link. There was one sentence I found particularly telling:
> 
> "After the ceasefire began, crowds and traffic filled the streets of Gaza. Car horns blared and recorded chants praising God sounded from mosque loudspeakers. *Celebratory gunfire killed one Palestinian and wounded 19 others, hospital officials said.*" Not exactly my idea of a celebration.


Totally nuts.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Was writing as it was being reported on ABC News Australia. Abbas was the messenger and representative of the Palestinians I suppose.
> 
> I listened to the 'expert' commentary following this and the general consensus was that Hamas "appears" to have emerged from the crisis, not as the 'winner' but as a serious contender in the region; that they're not going anywhere and that Israel and the US are going to have to accept this.
> 
> ...


Does anybody think that hamas isn't going to "rebuild their military machine"? Why would anyone trust hamas?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Thanks for the link. There was one sentence I found particularly telling:
> 
> "After the ceasefire began, crowds and traffic filled the streets of Gaza. Car horns blared and recorded chants praising God sounded from mosque loudspeakers. *Celebratory gunfire killed one Palestinian and wounded 19 others, hospital officials said.*" Not exactly my idea of a celebration.


At least, there's that.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Thanks for the link. There was one sentence I found particularly telling:
> 
> "After the ceasefire began, crowds and traffic filled the streets of Gaza. Car horns blared and recorded chants praising God sounded from mosque loudspeakers. *Celebratory gunfire killed one Palestinian and wounded 19 others, hospital officials said.*" Not exactly my idea of a celebration.


We have that here--it's called New Year's Eve. People get killed every year when idiots fire their guns into the air. Exactly where do these geniuses think those bullets are going to go? What goes up must come down...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> We have that here--it's called New Year's Eve. People get killed every year when idiots fire their guns into the air. Exactly where do these geniuses think those bullets are going to go? What goes up must come down...


I was once in San Francisco on New Year's Eve, and the custom I saw was much weirder than shooting bullets in the air.

At noon, people began throwing calendars out of office windows, calendar pages, that is. The streets were littered with the past year's notes and phone messages. I thought it was charming.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

I heard recently that of the TENS of BILLIONS of dollars given to the Palestinians (they are the largest recipients of international aid per capita of any peoples in the world) that Abbas takes a salary of a MILLION dollars a MONTH!

...And that there has been enough aid given to the various Palestinian 'authorities' over the years to have rebuilt Europe 25 times.

As bad as the conditions are, I don't want to hear anymore how desperate are the lives of Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, or the refugees in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan (refugees for over 60 years) without mention of those facts!

Abbas salary: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4305124,00.html


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## Linnier (Aug 13, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> I heard recently that of the TENS of BILLIONS of dollars given to the Palestinians (they are the largest recipients of international aid per capita of any peoples in the world) that Abbas takes a salary of a MILLION dollars a MONTH!
> 
> ...And that there has been enough aid given to the various Palestinian 'authorities' over the years to have rebuilt Europe 25 times.
> 
> ...


If Hamas used SOME of that aid to improve living conditions for the average Palestinian, their conditions might not be so grim. Instead, Hamas uses that money to rebuild its arsenal of weapons to continue the work that is mandated in their Charter - to eliminate the Jews and destroy Israel. Hamas = terrorist scum.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Gerslay said:


> I heard recently that of the TENS of BILLIONS of dollars given to the Palestinians (they are the largest recipients of international aid per capita of any peoples in the world) that Abbas takes a salary of a MILLION dollars a MONTH!
> 
> ...And that there has been enough aid given to the various Palestinian 'authorities' over the years to have rebuilt Europe 25 times.
> 
> ...


Woke up loving you Gers and the next poster.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> We have that here--it's called New Year's Eve. People get killed every year when idiots fire their guns into the air. Exactly where do these geniuses think those bullets are going to go? What goes up must come down...


Tell that to my husband's extended family in Serbia. There too it's traditional to fire guns in the air at the stroke of twelve. We were there on New Year's eve a few years back, and I was baffled to see my MIL herding my son away from the windows when midnight arrived. A second later I heard the deafening retort of multiple pistols being fired--several members of the family were firing off the balcony. I was ticked. :evil:


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

SQM said:


> Woke up loving you Gers and the next poster.


That's funny SQM...do you dream about me often?

:lol:


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Gerslay said:


> That's funny SQM...do you dream about me often?
> 
> :lol:


I inferred that I was awake and reading your good post. I cannot dream about you since I have never seen you or spent time with you. But if you ever visit NYC, let me know.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> I heard recently that of the TENS of BILLIONS of dollars given to the Palestinians (they are the largest recipients of international aid per capita of any peoples in the world) that Abbas takes a salary of a MILLION dollars a MONTH!
> 
> ...And that there has been enough aid given to the various Palestinian 'authorities' over the years to have rebuilt Europe 25 times.
> 
> ...


I wonder what would happen if we stop funding terrorists.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/why-should-americans-fund-hamas-1401913021


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Linnier said:


> If Hamas used SOME of that aid to improve living conditions for the average Palestinian, their conditions might not be so grim. Instead, Hamas uses that money to rebuild its arsenal of weapons to continue the work that is mandated in their Charter - to eliminate the Jews and destroy Israel. Hamas = terrorist scum.


Yup! And you can bet they're taking advantage of the cease fire, to rebuild their arsenal, as we speak. Why does anybody trust hamas or even the Palestinians!? Its all a game, to those who move the peices on the chess board.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> I heard recently that of the TENS of BILLIONS of dollars given to the Palestinians (they are the largest recipients of international aid per capita of any peoples in the world) that Abbas takes a salary of a MILLION dollars a MONTH!
> 
> ...And that there has been enough aid given to the various Palestinian 'authorities' over the years to have rebuilt Europe 25 times.
> 
> ...


Ynetnews claims its source to be a paper written by the Israeli Foreign Office. I did a Google search for "Abbas makes $1,000,000 a month" and came up with one (count them, 1) hit, an article from the Gatestone Institute dated 2012 on how much Abbas may have embezzled, citing a former Arafat follower who himself became a wealthy man while working for the Palestinian Authority.

In other words, though I'm certain that Abbas makes enough to live comfortably on, I would question that the actual amount is a million a month. Remember what Daddy Reagan said: "Trust but verify."
**********************************************
HERE IT IS only 7 minutes later and I discover that the Foreign Office paper referred to above also dates from 2012. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-20322405


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I inferred that I was awake and reading your good post. I cannot dream about you since I have never seen you or spent time with you. But if you ever visit NYC, let me know.


You *implied* that you were awake; I infer that you'd be better off reading a dictionary. :roll: :roll: :roll:


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You *implied* that you were awake; I infer that you'd be better off reading a dictionary. :roll: :roll: :roll:


Good day to you, too.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Here's a piece of news dated today:
*Saudi Foreign Minister: Time for Islamic World to Recognize Israel*

http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/world/saudi-foreign-minister-time-for-islamic-world-to-recognize-israel

Really good news, if true. The source is Breitbart, and I don't know whether today is its weekly truth-telling day or just the normal, untrustworthy kind.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Good day to you, too.


Come on, now. If you expect to teach teachers how to teach, you shouldn't be miffed by a little correction.

But you're right - I should have said good morning. I hear they do that all the time on D&P.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Give me grace before my first cup of coffee. How are you feeling?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Give me grace before my first cup of coffee. How are you feeling?


Sorry. I didn't realize - I'm in the middle of my first cup.

You don't want to know how I'm feeling. I only hope that once summer finally ends, my various aches will, too.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

SQM said:


> I inferred that I was awake and reading your good post. I cannot dream about you since I have never seen you or spent time with you. But if you ever visit NYC, let me know.


You _inferred_ that you woke up loving me...that says to me I was on your mind in the process of your waking up. But that's okay, I don't mind if you deny your affection for me...I love you anyway!

;-)


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Ynetnews claims its source to be a paper written by the Israeli Foreign Office. I did a Google search for "Abbas makes $1,000,000 a month" and came up with one (count them, 1) hit, an article from the Gatestone Institute dated 2012 on how much Abbas may have embezzled, citing a former Arafat follower who himself became a wealthy man while working for the Palestinian Authority.
> 
> In other words, though I'm certain that Abbas makes enough to live comfortably on, I would question that the actual amount is a million a month. Remember what Daddy Reagan said: "Trust but verify."
> **********************************************
> HERE IT IS only 7 minutes later and I discover that the Foreign Office paper referred to above also dates from 2012. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-20322405


I agree. I did say that I 'heard' that about Abbas...I then did a search and found that article but I confess I didn't look further. I've since read that he's worth over 100 million so whatever his monthly take is, its exorbitant and speaks more to his greed than his concern for the people.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> I agree. I did say that I 'heard' that about Abbas...I then did a search and found that article but I confess I didn't look further. I've since read that he's worth over 100 million so whatever his monthly take is, its exorbitant and speaks more to his greed than his concern for the people.


I agree. But he's still more civilized than Hamas.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Gerslay said:


> You _inferred_ that you woke up loving me...that says to me I was on your mind in the process of your waking up. But that's okay, I don't mind if you deny your affection for me...I love you anyway!
> 
> ;-)


Thanks for the nice words.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I agree. But he's still more civilized than Hamas.


I guess, but that's not saying much.


----------



## Linnier (Aug 13, 2014)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Yup! And you can bet they're taking advantage of the cease fire, to rebuild their arsenal, as we speak. Why does anybody trust hamas or even the Palestinians!? Its all a game, to those who move the peices on the chess board.


Exactly. Rest assured, if the ceasefire is broken (who am I kidding? When the ceasefire is broken!) it will be Hamas who breaks it with their newly replenished arsenal.

I don't think anybody trusts Hamas. I think there's just such intense political pressure on Israel all the time that they're forced, repeatedly, to "negotiate" with terrorist scum. Of course when those negotiations prove fruitless, (bc how can you negotiate with a group whose raison d'être is to kill you?) it'll be Israel, yet again, cast in the role of evil oppressor and Palestinians playing the role of helpless oppressed.

The whole thing is sickening to me, but the amount and the tenor of the extreme anti-Israel and frankly anti-Semitic sentiment that I have read and heard since this latest war began is nothing short of frightening.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Linnier said:


> Exactly. Rest assured, if the ceasefire is broken (who am I kidding? When the ceasefire is broken!) it will be Hamas who breaks it with their newly replenished arsenal.
> 
> I don't think anybody trusts Hamas. I think there's just such intense political pressure on Israel all the time that they're forced, repeatedly, to "negotiate" with terrorist scum. Of course when those negotiations prove fruitless, (bc how can you negotiate with a group whose raison d'être is to kill you?) it'll be Israel, yet again, cast in the role of evil oppressor and Palestinians playing the role of helpless oppressed.
> 
> The whole thing is sickening to me, but the amount and the tenor of the extreme anti-Israel and frankly anti-Semitic sentiment that I have read and heard since this latest war began is nothing short of frightening.


I agree with your point of view. The following link will stir the ire of those who are pro Israel because it's a commentary by a resident of Gaza. It's interesting to gain insight to both sides involved. I don't like it but here it is:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/08/gaza-goy-2014827104730724557.html


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I agree with your point of view. The following link will stir the ire of those who are pro Israel because it's a commentary by a resident of Gaza. It's interesting to gain insight to both sides involved. I don't like it but here it is:
> 
> http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/08/gaza-goy-2014827104730724557.html


Total crap with a side of bullshit.

If the Palestinians rid themselves of Hamas and make some effort to create a government that does not want to destroy Israel but work for peace then fine.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Linnier said:


> Exactly. Rest assured, if the ceasefire is broken (who am I kidding? When the ceasefire is broken!) it will be Hamas who breaks it with their newly replenished arsenal.
> 
> I don't think anybody trusts Hamas. I think there's just such intense political pressure on Israel all the time that they're forced, repeatedly, to "negotiate" with terrorist scum. Of course when those negotiations prove fruitless, (bc how can you negotiate with a group whose raison d'être is to kill you?) it'll be Israel, yet again, cast in the role of evil oppressor and Palestinians playing the role of helpless oppressed.
> 
> The whole thing is sickening to me, but the amount and the tenor of the extreme anti-Israel and frankly anti-Semitic sentiment that I have read and heard since this latest war began is nothing short of frightening.


Thanks for writing this. I feel the same way.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Total crap with a side of bullshit.
> 
> If the Palestinians rid themselves of Hamas and make some effort to create a government that does not want to destroy Israel but work for peace then fine.


Problem is, Hamas seems embedded for the long term. The average Palestinian has no hope of effecting change it seems.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Problem is, Hamas seems embedded for the long term. The average Palestinian has no hope of effecting change it seems.


Let them agree to not destroying Israel and Israel will bring them into the 21st Century.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Let them agree to not destroying Israel and Israel will bring them into the 21st Century.


Sadly, that will be left up to the politics of power mongering.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

First IS 'wannabe' from Melbourne intercepted at airport:

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/08/28/03/16/new-details-revealed-of-terror-suspect-seized-at-airport


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Let them agree to not destroying Israel and Israel will bring them into the 21st Century.


Their imagination can't encompass such a thing. The simplest, most obvious move seems to evade them. It's self-destructive, but in the meantime they've managed to collect a large number of bleeding hearts.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Their imagination can't encompass such a thing."
> 
> Why?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Poor Purl said:
> 
> 
> > Their imagination can't encompass such a thing."
> ...


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I agree with your point of view. The following link will stir the ire of those who are pro Israel because it's a commentary by a resident of Gaza. It's interesting to gain insight to both sides involved. I don't like it but here it is:
> 
> http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/08/gaza-goy-2014827104730724557.html


And not one WORD of hamas! Every atrocity they write of, can be put back on them! Israel has NEVER spoke of killing all of the Palestinians but the opposite can not be said. A pack of lies!!! All of it! I am outraged!

But I'm scared for Israel. The lies are having an effect. People all over the world are turning against Her. Israel hating Muslims, (as opposed to those who don't, a little pc here) are emigrating all over Europe and the US, and are spreading their hatred in the streets of our countries. All those who support Israel must do so, loudly and clearly! We must not stand by and let the poison grow!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I don't know. I only know that it's an idea they're unable to consider.


Or unwilling to consider. Mob mentality maybe?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And not one WORD of hamas! Every atrocity they write of, can be put back on them! Israel has NEVER spoke of killing all of the Palestinians but the opposite can not be said. A pack of lies!!! All of it! I am outraged!
> 
> But I'm scared for Israel. The lies are having an effect. People all over the world are turning against Her. Israel hating Muslims, (as opposed to those who don't, a little pc here) are emigrating all over Europe and the US, and are spreading their hatred in the streets of our countries. All those who support Israel must do so, loudly and clearly! We must not stand by and let the poison grow!


Al Jazeera is an Arab-owned news service. It's usually fair, but why should we expect that in the current situation?

And as to your fear for Israel, it's more than anti-Israel feeling; it's working up to be plain old anti-Semitism, which is not new by any means. In France and Belgium, Jews are being attacked and beaten in the street. I don't think there have been any deaths, but that's only because Europeans in general don't own guns.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Or unwilling to consider. Mob mentality maybe?


I think with Hamas, it's an impossibility. The thought that Israel will continue to exist in it present or even reduced form gives rise to serious cognitive dissonance.


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## Linnier (Aug 13, 2014)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And not one WORD of hamas! Every atrocity they write of, can be put back on them! Israel has NEVER spoke of killing all of the Palestinians but the opposite can not be said. A pack of lies!!! All of it! I am outraged!
> 
> But I'm scared for Israel. The lies are having an effect. People all over the world are turning against Her. Israel hating Muslims, (as opposed to those who don't, a little pc here) are emigrating all over Europe and the US, and are spreading their hatred in the streets of our countries. All those who support Israel must do so, loudly and clearly! We must not stand by and let the poison grow!


I am scared not only for Israel but for any nation that does not embrace extremist Islamic views. I received the following earlier this week. Chilling to say the least:

The author of this email is Dr. Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist.

A German's View on Islam

A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.

'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come.'

'My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

'We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is a religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.'

'The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa, and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.'

'The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous. Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.'

'The average Japanese individual, prior to World War II, was not a warmongering sadist. Yet Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet. And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery? Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?

'History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because, like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

'Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.'

'Now Islamic prayers have been introduced in Toronto and other public schools in Ontario, and, yes, in Ottawa, too, while the Lord's Prayer was removed (due to being so offensive?). The Islamic way may be peaceful for the time being in our country until the fanatics move in.'

'In Australia, and indeed in many countries around the world, many of the most commonly consumed food items have the halal emblem on them. Just look at the back of some of the most popular chocolate bars, and at other food items in your local supermarket. Food on aircraft have the halal emblem just to appease the privileged minority who are now rapidly expanding within the nation's shores.'

'In the U.K, the Muslim communities refuse to integrate, and there are now dozens of "no-go" zones within major cities across the country that the police force dare not intrude upon. Sharia law prevails there, because the Muslim community in those areas refuse to acknowledge British law.'

'As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts - the fanatics who threaten our way of life.'


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I guess if you take a long look at things, it seems that war is a good population control method. It is an endless activity of humans.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Linnier said:


> I am scared not only for Israel but for any nation that does not embrace extremist Islamic views. I received the following earlier this week. Chilling to say the least:
> 
> The author of this email is Dr. Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist.
> 
> ...


But those who stand up to the fanatics and speak out are labeled racists and bigots. It is politically incorrect to speak truth, these days. What are we to do? Many in our own government are Muslims. No one in power will speak out. As in Hitler's Germany, many are afraid to speak. It will be too late! And this won't be limited to one country this time. The cancer is spreading! How to stop it???


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I guess if you take a long look at things, it seems that war is a good population control method. It is an endless activity of humans.


War IS used for population control. I think it's ugly and disgusting!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Linnier said:


> I am scared not only for Israel but for any nation that does not embrace extremist Islamic views. I received the following earlier this week. Chilling to say the least:
> 
> The author of this email is Dr. Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist.
> 
> ...


There's a lot to think about here; thank you for posting it. It's true that the nature of the majority of people of any faith has NO influence on what the fanatic leaders do.

I was going to point out that many foods in the US are marked with a Kosher symbol, which few non-Jews are even aware of, but in looking for a symbol to paste her, I came across this:

*YOU are supporting the killing in Gaza, like it or not!*

There have been many stories from around the globe of people who have protested the slaughter of innocent children and civilians in Gaza because of the "collective punishment" inflicted upon the Palestinians by the Israelis. Perhaps, hopefully, you are a moral person also and object to this.
While you may think that it is enough to voice your disapproval of these horrific acts in news threads or on blogs, you probably do not know that you have be forced to pay for the bullets, phosphorous bombs and mortar rounds that have be targeted on UN refuges, hospitals and schools in Gaza. NO? Actually, YES!

Every time you buy a product in the grocery store you are paying a portion of the price for that product to Israel so support the disgusting Zionist racism that is causing the carnage. It's called the "Kosher Tax" but don;t let that name deceive you. It has nothing to do with the product being 
"kosher".
http://www.viewzone.com/kosher.html
********************************************************************************
It goes on for quite a while, including the untruth that even pork products carry the kosher symbol (and therefore pig farmers are unknowingly contributing to Israeli genocide).

At this point I'd seen enough. But I have no doubt that the underlying anti-Semitism will come to the surface soon, if it hasn't already.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> War IS used for population control. I think it's ugly and disgusting!


On the biological level it isn't so ugly, etc. We overpopulate and Nature takes care of things - giving males high testosterone and the earth limited resources. These are all the ingredients for population control.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I think with Hamas, it's an impossibility. The thought that Israel will continue to exist in it present or even reduced form gives rise to serious cognitive dissonance.


Yes, I see your point. This from David Harris, AJC Executive Director:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-harris/israel-the-middle-east-an_b_5561526.html


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Thanks for the link. There was one sentence I found particularly telling:
> 
> "After the ceasefire began, crowds and traffic filled the streets of Gaza. Car horns blared and recorded chants praising God sounded from mosque loudspeakers. *Celebratory gunfire killed one Palestinian and wounded 19 others, hospital officials said.*" Not exactly my idea of a celebration.


A celebration of a cease fire yet!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Yes, I see your point. This from David Harris, AJC Executive Director:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-harris/israel-the-middle-east-an_b_5561526.html


Ah finally an article that makes sense. Thanks for posting it even if I am the only reader.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Yes, I see your point. This from David Harris, AJC Executive Director:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-harris/israel-the-middle-east-an_b_5561526.html


Thanks for sharing this! The world refuses to see the truth! The world is being infiltrated by enemies of Israel. I understand that most of you do not accept the bible as the word of GOD, but it is written! We know how it will end! Just because we do not understand or accept, it will be nonetheless. The only question in my mind; is it time?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Ah finally an article that makes sense. Thanks for posting it even if I am the only reader.


Why do you think you'd be the only reader?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Why do you think you'd be the only reader?


Seems sort of sleepy on the popular threads at the moment.


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## Linnier (Aug 13, 2014)

I read it too. Well written and deeply disturbing. This, in particular, really resonated:

Can there be any moral equivalence between a democratic nation fighting to defend its citizens and a terrorist group seeking to murder them?

There is NO moral equivalence between Israel and the terrorist scum she must repeatedly and endlessly defend herself against. And I think it's not long before we all find ourselves in the exact same position.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Linnier said:


> I read it too. Well written and deeply disturbing. This, in particular, really resonated:
> 
> Can there be any moral equivalence between a democratic nation fighting to defend its citizens and a terrorist group seeking to murder them?
> 
> There is NO moral equivalence between Israel and the terrorist scum she must repeatedly and endlessly defend herself against. And I think it's not long before we all find ourselves in the exact same position.


Good analysis, Ms. Linnier.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Seems sort of sleepy on the popular threads at the moment.


You're right about that! Where is everybody? Did it all become futile? Or was it just too nasty?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Linnier said:


> I read it too. Well written and deeply disturbing. This, in particular, really resonated:
> 
> Can there be any moral equivalence between a democratic nation fighting to defend its citizens and a terrorist group seeking to murder them?
> 
> There is NO moral equivalence between Israel and the terrorist scum she must repeatedly and endlessly defend herself against. And I think it's not long before we all find ourselves in the exact same position.


Referring to your last sentence "And I think it's not long before we all find ourselves in the exact same position.", are you speaking of terrorism or war? Just curious.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks for sharing this! The world refuses to see the truth! The world is being infiltrated by enemies of Israel. I understand that most of you do not accept the bible as the word of GOD, but it is written! We know how it will end! Just because we do not understand or accept, it will be nonetheless. The only question in my mind; is it time?


Nebraska, I find this the least persuasive argument anyone can give. Those who believe as you do already share your opinion. I, for one, can't accept your statement that because something is written in the Bible, it is inevitable, and only you and other Christians understand it correctly.

Jews (and their ancestors, the Hebrews) have been living in that part of the world since biblical times. They've built cities, they've grown food, they've lived among the other middle eastern people. Once in a while they were exiled by nations with stronger armies, but after a while they would move back to the Land of Israel. Many Israeli Jewish families can trace their ancestry back over several generations living in the same place. Those who didn't return to Israel settled in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Jordan, Iraq, Yemen (and others that I've left out) and blended into the cultures, if not the religions, of those countries.

Then, recently, they were exiled from all of those countries, so naturally they came back to Israel. It's not as though they all suddenly arrived in 1945 from Europe. They came to the only nation in the area that would not send them away. Maybe what the Palestinians should be insisting on is the property taken from Jews by the governments of the various countries that expelled them. (I know a man in his sixties who insists that Egypt owes him a bicycle from when his family had to pick up all they could carry and leave.)

And then there are those who believe that Israel (and Jews in general) constitute too small a group for them to worry about. A French official once referred to it as "your s*itty little country." European anti-Semitism has nothing really to do with Israel. It's always been there, though sometimes guilt has suppressed its expression. That's the kind of thing most Jews these days are concerned about, the fact that it's become respectable to blame Jews once again for all the problems in the world.

Okay, enough. If I've bored anyone, tough noogies.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Nebraska, I find this the least persuasive argument anyone can give. Those who believe as you do already share your opinion. I, for one, can't accept your statement that because something is written in the Bible, it is inevitable, and only you and other Christians understand it correctly.
> 
> Jews (and their ancestors, the Hebrews) have been living in that part of the world since biblical times. They've built cities, they've grown food, they've lived among the other middle eastern people. Once in a while they were exiled by nations with stronger armies, but after a while they would move back to the Land of Israel. Many Israeli Jewish families can trace their ancestry back over several generations living in the same place. Those who didn't return to Israel settled in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Jordan, Iraq, Yemen (and others that I've left out) and blended into the cultures, if not the religions, of those countries.
> 
> ...


I was not trying to persuade you or anyone else. I was just stating what I know. I am aware of the history of the Jews ie Hebrews. I'm currently studying in the book of Isaiah. I'm also reading a book called "The Mystery of the Shemitah", alongside Isaiah. When I read the bible by itself, I find many things difficult to understand. But when I read it with outside resources, it becomes clearer. So, while I haven't arrived at full understanding, I am learning. But IMO, the reason anti semitism always returns is because there will always be people who know the truth, and hate the Jews for having GOD'S favor. Even those who hate GOD, believe in HIM. Especially, those who hate GOD! You can't hate something you don't believe in.

So, I echo your words, " if I've bored anyone, tough noogies".


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I was not trying to persuade you or anyone else. I was just stating what I know. I am aware of the history of the Jews ie Hebrews. I'm currently studying in the book of Isaiah. I'm also reading a book called "The Mystery of the Shemitah", alongside Isaiah. When I read the bible by itself, I find many things difficult to understand. But when I read it with outside resources, it becomes clearer. So, while I haven't arrived at full understanding, I am learning. But IMO, the reason anti semitism always returns is because there will always be people who know the truth, and hate the Jews for having GOD'S favor. Even those who hate GOD, believe in HIM. Especially, those who hate GOD! You can't hate something you don't believe in.
> 
> So, I echo your words, " if I've bored anyone, tough noogies".


I would say you're just stating what you believe, because I "know" otherwise. There are many who resent the fact that Jews have been called the chosen people. But I think what they most resent is the fact that Jews retain our different customs, different holidays, different foods, different languages, sometimes different education and different professions, sometimes even different clothes or facial hair, and have done so in the face of great attempts to get us to change. It may simply be a matter of "If we have to follow the rules, why don't they?"


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I was not trying to persuade you or anyone else. I was just stating what I know. I am aware of the history of the Jews ie Hebrews. I'm currently studying in the book of Isaiah. I'm also reading a book called "The Mystery of the Shemitah", alongside Isaiah. When I read the bible by itself, I find many things difficult to understand. But when I read it with outside resources, it becomes clearer. So, while I haven't arrived at full understanding, I am learning. But IMO, the reason anti semitism always returns is because there will always be people who know the truth, and hate the Jews for having GOD'S favor. Even those who hate GOD, believe in HIM. Especially, those who hate GOD! You can't hate something you don't believe in.
> 
> So, I echo your words, " if I've bored anyone, tough noogies".


Another point: if you're using the Bible as the way to learn history, you're not studying history. Are you using any modern, non-sectarian outside resources?


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## Linnier (Aug 13, 2014)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Referring to your last sentence "And I think it's not long before we all find ourselves in the exact same position.", are you speaking of terrorism or war? Just curious.


I am speaking of the increase in terrorist activity worldwide, and the spread of influence of fanatical Muslims, and the inevitability that this will lead to war (as it has already done). I think it was you(?) who made the point that we can't say anything lest we be labelled as racists, but I will say it anyway. I'm not racist; I'm anti-terrorist.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I would say you're just stating what you believe, because I "know" otherwise. There are many who resent the fact that Jews have been called the chosen people. But I think what they most resent is the fact that Jews retain our different customs, different holidays, different foods, different languages, sometimes different education and different professions, sometimes even different clothes or facial hair, and have done so in the face of great attempts to get us to change. It may simply be a matter of "If we have to follow the rules, why don't they?"


I agree! You're entitled to know what you know. No disagreement! One of us or both of us, are wrong. It still doesn't matter. What will be will be, regardless of what you or I " know". I like that we can discuss things even when we don't agree.

You're right, many resent the fact that the Jews are the chosen people, both their enemies and some Jews themselves. A Jewish woman that I once knew, said "If we're the chosen ones, why do do many bad things happen to us?". She said she didn't want to be a chosen one. I didn't and won't try to answer the question.

I don't resent the customs , the language, the clothes, the hair or any of the rest. The Jewish people aren't killing those who differ from them. However, I am curious. I would like to know what it's all about. Its difficult to ask anyone about their " differentness" without coming across as one who disapproves. You know more about being Jewish than I could learn in a lifetime of study. I want you to know, that I appreciate anything and everything that you share with us.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Another point: if you're using the Bible as the way to learn history, you're not studying history. Are you using any modern, non-sectarian outside resources?


First of all, right now I'm more interested in the history as it relates to the bible. I understand that it is not a complete history but I am into studying the bible right now. I'm currently studying the book of Isaiah. I'm using two books written by a Messianic Jew, Rabbi Jonathan Cahn. (I know, a Messianic Jew is not a Jew, because the Jews don't believe that the Messiah has yet come.). But I'm looking at his two books, "The Harbinger" and "The Mystery of the Shemitah". I'm also looking at some online sources. Rabbi Cahn is explaining what happened to the Jews in the book of Isaiah and is comparing that to what is happening now. Anyway, its quite interesting. I understand that it is not a history book, per se. But it's loaded with history. If you were to recommend one book to start with, what would it be?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Linnier said:


> I am speaking of the increase in terrorist activity worldwide, and the spread of influence of fanatical Muslims, and the inevitability that this will lead to war (as it has already done). I think it was you(?) who made the point that we can't say anything lest we be labelled as racists, but I will say it anyway. I'm not racist; I'm anti-terrorist.


I agree with you on all of it!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> First of all, right now I'm more interested in the history as it relates to the bible. I understand that it is not a complete history but I am into studying the bible right now. I'm currently studying the book of Isaiah. I'm using two books written by a Messianic Jew, Rabbi Jonathan Cahn. (I know, a Messianic Jew is not a Jew, because the Jews don't believe that the Messiah has yet come.). But I'm looking at his two books, "The Harbinger" and "The Mystery of the Shemitah". I'm also looking at some online sources. Rabbi Cahn is explaining what happened to the Jews in the book of Isaiah and is comparing that to what is happening now. Anyway, its quite interesting. I understand that it is not a history book, per se. But it's loaded with history. If you were to recommend one book to start with, what would it be?


History of the Jewish People by ??? Johnson. A Christian who, I think, wrote one of the most insightful book on Judaism.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> History of the Jewish People by ??? Johnson. A Christian who, I think, wrote one of the most insightful book on Judaism.


Thank you, SQM!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree! You're entitled to know what you know. No disagreement! One of us or both of us, are wrong. It still doesn't matter. What will be will be, regardless of what you or I " know". I like that we can discuss things even when we don't agree.
> 
> You're right, many resent the fact that the Jews are the chosen people, both their enemies and some Jews themselves. A Jewish woman that I once knew, said "If we're the chosen ones, why do do many bad things happen to us?". She said she didn't want to be a chosen one. I didn't and won't try to answer the question.
> 
> I don't resent the customs , the language, the clothes, the hair or any of the rest. The Jewish people aren't killing those who differ from them. However, I am curious. I would like to know what it's all about. Its difficult to ask anyone about their " differentness" without coming across as one who disapproves. You know more about being Jewish than I could learn in a lifetime of study. I want you to know, that I appreciate anything and everything that you share with us.


I found this link NFN. It's very basic but it gives a general overview:

http://www.jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> History of the Jewish People by ??? Johnson. A Christian who, I think, wrote one of the most insightful book on Judaism.


For a second I though his name was "Johnson A. Christian," until I realized I had moved the period. Turns out his real name is the much duller Paul Johnson (and the book is History of the Jews).


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> For a second I though his name was "Johnson A. Christian," until I realized I had moved the period. Turns out his real name is the much duller Paul Johnson (and the book is History of the Jews).


I knew PP would fill in the blank for me. Thanks.

What book would you have recommended?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I found this link NFN. It's very basic but it gives a general overview:
> 
> http://www.jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm


This looks like a good source for reference - thank you for posting it. I recommend reading the author's description of where she's coming from: http://www.jewfaq.org/author.htm


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I knew PP would fill in the blank for me. Thanks.
> 
> What book would you have recommended?


Whatever DH tells me is a good book. I tend not to read that kind of stuff.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I can hardly speak...the most heinous crime has occurred...I'm about to faint...
> 
> http://www.shoptilyoudrop.com.au/fashion/insiders-shopping-guide/2014/8/is-this-the-death-of-skinny-jeans/


Wouldn't open for me, but I saw the article about the death of skinny jeans. Since I don't have a skinny butt, skinny jeans were never an issue for me. I do enjoy breathing, as well.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Wouldn't open for me, but I saw the article about the death of skinny jeans. Since I don't have a skinny butt, skinny jeans were never an issue for me. I do enjoy breathing, as well.


I don't wear them either but my son and all of his friends do. Typically, waist is parked below the gluteal divide, crutch of jeans reside at near mid thigh and much fabric ruches at the ankle! Talk about a 'good look' NOT.

:XD:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Wouldn't open for me, but I saw the article about the death of skinny jeans. Since I don't have a skinny butt, skinny jeans were never an issue for me. I do enjoy breathing, as well.


I have a friend who's thin as the proverbial rail - and of course eats everything you put in front of her - who would never wear skinny jeans because "why would you want to wear something that feels like a girdle?" Why, indeed?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I found this link NFN. It's very basic but it gives a general overview:
> 
> http://www.jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm


Thank you so much, Wombat! I've read over the main article itself, but I'll have to look at the links later. I babysat my grandsons tonight and we're getting ready to go camping tomorrow. So, I'll be kind of busy until Sunday.

I am struck by the flexibility(?) of the Conservative and Reform/Reconstructionist forms of Judiasm. I've heard some say, they don't believe in GOD, but that they believe in good works. This always puzzled me. After reading this, I also understand why some think that the Constitution and Bill of Rights should change. If they believe that their religious laws should change with the times, why not the secular laws? That too, always puzzled me. Thanks for sharing this. I'll be digging in a bit more later. I think it helps all of us, to understand where others are coming from, the very basis for how their ideas are formed.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> For a second I though his name was "Johnson A. Christian," until I realized I had moved the period. Turns out his real name is the much duller Paul Johnson (and the book is History of the Jews).


Thank you, Purl! I've found it on Amazon and bookmarked it. I'll look at ordering it next week.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> This looks like a good source for reference - thank you for posting it. I recommend reading the author's description of where she's coming from: http://www.jewfaq.org/author.htm


Thank you, Purl. I'll look over more later.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Wouldn't open for me, but I saw the article about the death of skinny jeans. Since I don't have a skinny butt, skinny jeans were never an issue for me. I do enjoy breathing, as well.


Ahahahahaha! I enjoy breathing as well! I buy my pants a size larger so that they don't cut me in half, when I sit down. I hate that! I prefer baggy to tight.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I don't wear them either but my son and all of his friends do. Typically, waist is parked below the gluteal divide, crutch of jeans reside at near mid thigh and much fabric ruches at the ankle! Talk about a 'good look' NOT.
> 
> :XD:


This reminds me of when we moved from St Louis back to Omaha. In St Louis, the style for boys was the big baggy Dockers and long t shirts. I took my youngest to middle school to sign him up and they said nothing about his clothes. But on his first day, the principal embarrassed him in front of everyone in the cafeteria, saying "We don't allow gang bangers". She made him tie a rope around his pants. He was the furthest thing from a gang banger. He was a straight A honor student who played the violin, beautifully by ear. Six months later, everybody was wearing the baggy pants.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Ahahahahaha! I enjoy breathing as well! I buy my pants a size larger so that they don't cut me in half, when I sit down. I hate that! I prefer baggy to tight.


I have skinny jeans. They are very comfortable because they have a lot of spandex in them. I also have elastic waist pants. Now that is current events.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I have skinny jeans. They are very comfortable because they have a lot of spandex in them. I also have elastic waist pants. Now that is current events.


The following is current - happened not 30 minutes ago.

Needed more yarn so quickly threw on some clothes and drove to store. Walking along to get to store and thought my skirt felt a bit longer than usual. Go into store and walk up to counter and skirt drops to my ankles!

Fortunately I was the only customer in the store and the owner and her daughter are lovely. Daughter says "are you alright?" I reply "my skirt just fell down!" She comes around from behind the counter and bursts out laughing. Mother comes from back of the store and also bursts out laughing. They shuffle me behind a stand where I reach down and pull skirt up. Turns out I'd put the thing on upside down! It's a 'tube' skirt. Did I feel like a dork!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> The following is current - happened not 30 minutes ago.
> 
> Needed more yarn so quickly threw on some clothes and drove to store. Walking along to get to store and thought my skirt felt a bit longer than usual. Go into store and walk up to counter and skirt drops to my ankles!
> 
> Fortunately I was the only customer in the store and the owner and her daughter are lovely. Daughter says "are you alright?" I reply "my skirt just fell down!" She comes around from behind the counter and bursts out laughing. Mother comes from back of the store and also bursts out laughing. They shuffle me behind a stand where I reach down and pull skirt up. Turns out I'd put the thing on upside down! It's a 'tube' skirt. Did I feel like a dork!


Ahahahahahahaha!!! Oh, I'm sorry, I just couldn't help myself!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Oh Wombat-ala,

You ended my day with a great laugh. What a riot. A friend of mine went to work wearing her sheep skin jacket upside down. She demonstrated it for me but I still cannot explain it. Another friend wore her pants a whole day inside out. I went to work with my house shoes but they looked like suede slippers.

Ha Ha Ha Ha. Big laughs.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I prefer comfort to everything else.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Ahahahahaha! I enjoy breathing as well! I buy my pants a size larger so that they don't cut me in half, when I sit down. I hate that! I prefer baggy to tight.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

True story. As a group of us were all hanging up our coats at work, there was a dead silence and then hysterical laughter. A friend wasn't wearing a skirt...just a lacy slip. She forgot to put the skirt on, slipped on her coat and made a dash to the freeway.

Wombat, love your tube skirt. At least it fell in a safe spot.



Wombatnomore said:


> The following is current - happened not 30 minutes ago.
> 
> Needed more yarn so quickly threw on some clothes and drove to store. Walking along to get to store and thought my skirt felt a bit longer than usual. Go into store and walk up to counter and skirt drops to my ankles!
> 
> Fortunately I was the only customer in the store and the owner and her daughter are lovely. Daughter says "are you alright?" I reply "my skirt just fell down!" She comes around from behind the counter and bursts out laughing. Mother comes from back of the store and also bursts out laughing. They shuffle me behind a stand where I reach down and pull skirt up. Turns out I'd put the thing on upside down! It's a 'tube' skirt. Did I feel like a dork!


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you so much, Wombat! I've read over the main article itself, but I'll have to look at the links later. I babysat my grandsons tonight and we're getting ready to go camping tomorrow. So, I'll be kind of busy until Sunday.
> 
> I am struck by the flexibility(?) of the Conservative and Reform/Reconstructionist forms of Judiasm. I've heard some say, they don't believe in GOD, but that they believe in good works. This always puzzled me. After reading this, I also understand why some think that the Constitution and Bill of Rights should change. If they believe that their religious laws should change with the times, why not the secular laws? That too, always puzzled me. Thanks for sharing this. I'll be digging in a bit more later. I think it helps all of us, to understand where others are coming from, the very basis for how their ideas are formed.


Of course laws change with the times. Otherwise we would still have people sentenced to the stocks. Theft might still be punished by having a hand cut off. There would still be "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." Children might still be employed in factories. Men would still be able to beat their wives with a stick no wider than their thumb. Some of this might still occur in other countries, but not in ours.

As for the Constitution, it is a documented meant to be changed as needed, otherwise amendments would not have been allowed for. If it had never changed women would not have the vote. Slavery would still be legal. Black people would not have the right to vote. Presidents would still be able to serve more than two terms. Poll taxes would still be in effect. Eighteen year-olds would not be able to vote. It is a living document made to be able to change with the times.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you sumpleby. Well put.



sumpleby said:


> Of course laws change with the times. Otherwise we would still have people sentenced to the stocks. Theft might still be punished by having a hand cut off. There would still be "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." Children might still be employed in factories. Men would still be able to beat their wives with a stick no wider than their thumb. Some of this might still occur in other countries, but not in ours.
> 
> As for the Constitution, it is a documented meant to be changed as needed, otherwise amendments would not have been allowed for. If it had never changed women would not have the vote. Slavery would still be legal. Black people would not have the right to vote. Presidents would still be able to serve more than two terms. Poll taxes would still be in effect. Eighteen year-olds would not be able to vote. It is a living document made to be able to change with the times.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> Of course laws change with the times. Otherwise we would still have people sentenced to the stocks. Theft might still be punished by having a hand cut off. There would still be "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." Children might still be employed in factories. Men would still be able to beat their wives with a stick no wider than their thumb. Some of this might still occur in other countries, but not in ours.
> 
> As for the Constitution, it is a documented meant to be changed as needed, otherwise amendments would not have been allowed for. If it had never changed women would not have the vote. Slavery would still be legal. Black people would not have the right to vote. Presidents would still be able to serve more than two terms. Poll taxes would still be in effect. Eighteen year-olds would not be able to vote. It is a living document made to be able to change with the times.


I'm sorry. What I meant to say was, our INTERPRETATION of laws and the Constitution.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I don't wear them either but my son and all of his friends do. Typically, waist is parked below the gluteal divide, crutch of jeans reside at near mid thigh and much fabric ruches at the ankle! Talk about a 'good look' NOT.
> 
> :XD:


It must be hilarious watching them try to run!


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> The following is current - happened not 30 minutes ago.
> 
> Needed more yarn so quickly threw on some clothes and drove to store. Walking along to get to store and thought my skirt felt a bit longer than usual. Go into store and walk up to counter and skirt drops to my ankles!
> 
> Fortunately I was the only customer in the store and the owner and her daughter are lovely. Daughter says "are you alright?" I reply "my skirt just fell down!" She comes around from behind the counter and bursts out laughing. Mother comes from back of the store and also bursts out laughing. They shuffle me behind a stand where I reach down and pull skirt up. Turns out I'd put the thing on upside down! It's a 'tube' skirt. Did I feel like a dork!


What a fashion statement!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> What a fashion statement!


The same thing happened when I was at work once, while dressing a patient's wound. Patient a young man, sitting in chair with me attending. We were chatting away and all of a sudden skirt falls to ankles! Fortunately I had a long overall apron on so I step out of skirt and kick it to the side. Didn't miss a beat with the dressing and patient was none the wiser!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

You have bad skirt karma.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> You have bad skirt karma.


 :XD: And it's all to do with an abdomen which won't quit!

Talk about the games people play:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/29/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-denial-idUSKBN0GT1DY20140829


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> It must be hilarious watching them try to run!


Run you say? Now that visual is scary! It's way too cool a 'look' to be ruined by running. This particular look belongs to band practice, a beer at the pub or general 'hanging out' type scenarios. :shock:


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: And it's all to do with an abdomen which won't quit!
> 
> Talk about the games people play:
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/29/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-denial-idUSKBN0GT1DY20140829


Try some cute suspenders. DH has a tummy issue and his pants keep slipping. He has arthritis in his hips so tightening the belt is painful. Suspenders (conservative navy blue for him) do the job nicely.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Something good for once:

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/08/30/09/11/ferguson-police-officer-resigns-after-assault-rifle-controversy


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> The same thing happened when I was at work once, while dressing a patient's wound. Patient a young man, sitting in chair with me attending. We were chatting away and all of a sudden skirt falls to ankles! Fortunately I had a long overall apron on so I step out of skirt and kick it to the side. Didn't miss a beat with the dressing and patient was none the wiser!


Picture this: 8:30am statistics class, with about 35 non-math majors who did NOT want to be there. Teacher lifts her arm to write on the board and feels something slinky land around her ankles. She looks down and sees it's her half-slip, whose elastic has disintegrated. The students are staring, rigid, obviously not knowing how to respond. Also not knowing it's not underpants.

(I guess I might as well admit I was the teacher.) What I want to do is run out of the room and into the ladies' room a few doors down. What I realize is that if I do that, I'll be a laughing stock until the school year ends, and probably after that. I quickly pick up the slip and put it in my purse and say, "I guess now I know how a male teacher feels when he realizes his fly is unzipped." It gets a chuckle, but most of the kids are still stone-faced. And then it hits me (this has all taken a few seconds only). "Please stop looking so scared. You're allowed to laugh when something ridiculous happens. Take two minutes to laugh, and then we can get back to work." And they did, and we did, and this turned into the hardest-working class I ever dealt with.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Something good for once:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/08/30/09/11/ferguson-police-officer-resigns-after-assault-rifle-controversy


The end result might be good, but what do they put in the water in Ferguson?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Picture this: 8:30am statistics class, with about 35 non-math majors who did NOT want to be there. Teacher lifts her arm to write on the board and feels something slinky land around her ankles. She looks down and sees it's her half-slip, whose elastic has disintegrated. The students are staring, rigid, obviously not knowing how to respond. Also not knowing it's not underpants.
> 
> (I guess I might as well admit I was the teacher.) What I want to do is run out of the room and into the ladies' room a few doors down. What I realize is that if I do that, I'll be a laughing stock until the school year ends, and probably after that. I quickly pick up the slip and put it in my purse and say, "I guess now I know how a male teacher feels when he realizes his fly is unzipped." It gets a chuckle, but most of the kids are still stone-faced. And then it hits me (this has all taken a few seconds only). "Please stop looking so scared. You're allowed to laugh when something ridiculous happens. Take two minutes to laugh, and then we can get back to work." And they did, and we did, and this turned into the hardest-working class I ever dealt with.


That is priceless! Handled with perfection.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put.



sumpleby said:


> Of course laws change with the times. Otherwise we would still have people sentenced to the stocks. Theft might still be punished by having a hand cut off. There would still be "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." Children might still be employed in factories. Men would still be able to beat their wives with a stick no wider than their thumb. Some of this might still occur in other countries, but not in ours.
> 
> As for the Constitution, it is a documented meant to be changed as needed, otherwise amendments would not have been allowed for. If it had never changed women would not have the vote. Slavery would still be legal. Black people would not have the right to vote. Presidents would still be able to serve more than two terms. Poll taxes would still be in effect. Eighteen year-olds would not be able to vote. It is a living document made to be able to change with the times.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

JanisSeegle said:


> His captain still says he had a right to pull a gun because he saw agun in the crowd.
> 
> Riiiight. And the rest of the cops just "let that go". Puuulease.


On tv, when cops see a gun, they all start shouting "Gun, gun," but the ones in Ferguson must have been checking their email at the time. Geez.

After all this time, shouldn't the captain know better than to back up that kind of behavior?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

My question is why did the Ferguson cops keep the uncovered body on the street for 4 hours? It took that long to make a crime scene???

Does anyone suspect that Joan Rivers was in to get her face pulled again and something went horribly wrong?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> The end result might be good, but what do they put in the water in Ferguson?


There's something in the water as there is here in Australia. There is a corruption inquiry regarding the dealings of New South Wales Members of Parliament being conducted currently. 11 of them have either stood down or resigned when found they had illegally taken huge sums of cash in exchange for favouring construction tenders and such.

Unbelievable.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> My question is why did the Ferguson cops keep the uncovered body on the street for 4 hours? It took that long to make a crime scene???
> 
> Does anyone suspect that Joan Rivers was in to get her face pulled again and something went horribly wrong?


We'll probably never know. I've read she's stable. Have you heard anything else?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Wonderful story. Quick thinking and great sense of humor. Students learned something important that day. Their teacher is human.



Poor Purl said:


> Picture this: 8:30am statistics class, with about 35 non-math majors who did NOT want to be there. Teacher lifts her arm to write on the board and feels something slinky land around her ankles. She looks down and sees it's her half-slip, whose elastic has disintegrated. The students are staring, rigid, obviously not knowing how to respond. Also not knowing it's not underpants.
> 
> (I guess I might as well admit I was the teacher.) What I want to do is run out of the room and into the ladies' room a few doors down. What I realize is that if I do that, I'll be a laughing stock until the school year ends, and probably after that. I quickly pick up the slip and put it in my purse and say, "I guess now I know how a male teacher feels when he realizes his fly is unzipped." It gets a chuckle, but most of the kids are still stone-faced. And then it hits me (this has all taken a few seconds only). "Please stop looking so scared. You're allowed to laugh when something ridiculous happens. Take two minutes to laugh, and then we can get back to work." And they did, and we did, and this turned into the hardest-working class I ever dealt with.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> On tv, when cops see a gun, they all start shouting "Gun, gun," but the ones in Ferguson must have been checking their email at the time. Geez.
> 
> After all this time, shouldn't the captain know better than to back up that kind of behavior?


As I said previously, this indicates a failure of management. This proves it.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> My question is why did the Ferguson cops keep the uncovered body on the street for 4 hours? It took that long to make a crime scene???
> 
> Does anyone suspect that Joan Rivers was in to get her face pulled again and something went horribly wrong?


I guess it doesn't matter what she was doing. She left in a much different state. I think the 'stable' means she's being kept alive artificially. Her daughter has medical POA, and that's difficult if it's your mother or anyone else you love.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

JanisSeegle said:


> I would say so, they just say "throat surgery", but if it was REAL throat surgery, they would've said she was having nodes removed or something.
> 
> Just a generic "throat surgery".


Maybe it was a voice transplant.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Maybe it was a voice transplant.


Her voice sounded terrible last time I saw her.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

JanisSeegle said:


> How much you wanna bet the rocket scientists over at Drool & Pussfaces buy his story hook, line and sinker.


They've already bought the picture of some murder suspect as Michael Brown's. They're born to shop.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> There's something in the water as there is here in Australia. There is a corruption inquiry regarding the dealings of New South Wales Members of Parliament being conducted currently. 11 of them have either stood down or resigned when found they had illegally taken huge sums of cash in exchange for favouring construction tenders and such.
> 
> Unbelievable.


Compared to what goes on all the time in much of the world? Not unbelievable at all. I'm waiting for something to break in New York State. Our governor is not as clean as his beloved father.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> My question is why did the Ferguson cops keep the uncovered body on the street for 4 hours? It took that long to make a crime scene???


That really is hard to figure out. Maybe they were using it as a warning to other young black unarmed men to stay away.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

A duplicate.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

another one


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Yet another.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

This is getting boring. I think I'll send out the chorus.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

JanisSeegle said:


> I think that's likely it. It was a scare tactic. Done on purpose. As incompetent as Ferguson might be, I don't think even THEY could be THAT incompetent, which means they were just that cruel and corrupt.


I think KOS had a story about how the police let their dog urinate on a memorial to Michael Brown, then drove over it in a police car. They can't even pretend to be decent.

Here it is: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/27/1325000/-Police-let-their-dog-pee-on-Brown-memorial-then-drove-over-it


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

This is not a current event in USA, but it is very much a current event in my local community.

Vegie shop could be uprooted
29/Aug/2014
Joel Kelly, Midland Reporter

Mohammad Alizhdeh and his son Matt face losing their fruit and vegetable store to make way for a liquor store.

SWAN View Fruit and Veg owners Mohammad Alizhdeh and his son Matt have spent the past five years selling fresh produce and know most of their customers by their first names.

Now they face having to move their successful business at Swan View shopping centre to make way for a Liquorland store.

Mohammad said he was told his lease would not be renewed last Monday but the liquor store application still needed approval from Shire of Mundaring.

On Monday, we got the news from Charter Hall (the lease negotiator for Swan View shopping centre) that we would need to move from here, he said.

They said that Liquorland was going to take over the new shop and they gave me no option except that they could provide a lease in Secret Harbour. But thats too far away from here.

Already, the family works up to 90 hours a week.

Its going to be too hard for us to drive an hour from home in Swan View then an hour back from Secret Harbour, he said.

We start at 5am then finish at 9pm and we spend about three hours a night with paperwork.

They will take away our income. Weve got to pay off the mortgages, send the kids to school and if we move, well need to move them somewhere else.

Mohammad, originally from Afghanistan, arrived to Australia by boat in 2000 as a refugee and was separated from his family until 2005, when they arrived in Australia.

He spent eight years as a taxi driver in Canberra, saving what he could to open his own business in Perth.

The family-run Swan View produce store is renowned in the community for its friendly service, local produce and hard-working team.

When locals learned the produce store was under threat last week, they drew up a petition to save the business, which attracted more than 1000 signatures in just two days.

Swan View resident Jen Adele-Schelfhout was organising the petition and said the loss of the store would impact the community.

Its sending a bad message to the community that alcohol is good and fruit and vegetables are not, she said.

When you buy here, you know you are also supporting WA growers too.

So it seems, according to those who look to maximise profits for Wesfarmers, who own the Coles supermarket chain: *Alcohol is good, fresh fruit and vegies are not*.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

This article has spooked me:

http://www.9news.com.au/World/2014/08/30/19/39/Saudi-king-warns-West-will-be-next-terrorism-target

After reading it, I couldn't help but wonder what President Obama, the joint Chiefs and other senior government administrators think about the seemingly global expectation for the US to act against IS.

Why does this responsibility rest on the USA? I understand the US is a massive power in the world but it struck me that there is the UK, Germany, France, Australia and China, Indonesia (whose armies are massive) and that this threat is global, not solely aimed at the US. Just wondering.

I remember seeing a clip of Bin Laden on the news about 2 years before 9/11 where he warned that there would be a massive strike against the west, never before seen in any war (words to that effect). The fact that this news item wasn't further discussed and only appeared that one time was unnerving to say the least. I have the same feeling now as I did back then.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> This article has spooked me:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/World/2014/08/30/19/39/Saudi-king-warns-West-will-be-next-terrorism-target
> 
> ...


Where are the Sunni nations in all of this except being prophets of doom? None of them seem too willing to pull themselves together to actually fight. A coalition is needed, not just the US. Of course it is worrisome about the number of Americans who joined IS. And I am sure the Brits have an even bigger concern. I am all for getting rid of IS but that requires ground fighting. Not sure the American public has the stomach for it now but will if something happens here.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Where are the Sunni nations in all of this except being prophets of doom? None of them seem too willing to pull themselves together to actually fight. A coalition is needed, not just the US. Of course it is worrisome about the number of Americans who joined IS. And I am sure the Brits have an even bigger concern. I am all for getting rid of IS but that requires ground fighting. Not sure the American public has the stomach for it now but will if something happens here.


I don't think many of the Sunni nations are capable of the combat which would be required. Not enough man power or equipment. I might be wrong but I haven't seen evidence of it in my lifetime. Australia has pledged her allegiance to the US in this and is waiting to see what the US will do.

Australian men intending on joining IS are being intercepted at airports now, around 5 to date. I'm concerned that terrorist strikes against the west will occur sooner rather than later. I think that speed is now required before it's too late. Can you imagine this type of warfare occurring in out streets? I can.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I hope someone in the community who appreciates good produce and the contribution of immigrants will be able to help with a suitable place to conduct business.



EveMCooke said:


> This is not a current event in USA, but it is very much a current event in my local community.
> 
> Vegie shop could be uprooted
> 29/Aug/2014
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

This quagmire is beyond help. IMHO. To me the key is to protect our borders. There seems to be no agreement among allies. US cannot and should not attempt to free the world.



SQM said:


> Where are the Sunni nations in all of this except being prophets of doom? None of them seem too willing to pull themselves together to actually fight. A coalition is needed, not just the US. Of course it is worrisome about the number of Americans who joined IS. And I am sure the Brits have an even bigger concern. I am all for getting rid of IS but that requires ground fighting. Not sure the American public has the stomach for it now but will if something happens here.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

damemary said:


> This quagmire is beyond help. IMHO. To me the key is to protect our borders. There seems to be no agreement among allies. US cannot and should not attempt to free the world.


Protecting our borders from IS terrorists with American passports?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Protecting our borders from IS terrorists with American passports?


And therein lies a real problem. I'm concerned that rather than us watching events from afar, those events will spring up around us and we won't have seen it coming.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

damemary said:


> This quagmire is beyond help. IMHO. To me the key is to protect our borders. There seems to be no agreement among allies. US cannot and should not attempt to free the world.


What??????????? Your comment is hypocritical in my opinion.

Weren't you and your AOLW the ones that wailed over and over again when a Conservative suggested that we secure our borders that we were hateful? How could we deny 'the children', don't we care, we were selfish.........

Well we were RIGHT again.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> What??????????? Your comment is hypocritical in my opinion.
> 
> Weren't you and your AOLW the ones that wailed over and over again when a Conservative suggested that we secure our borders that we were hateful? How could we deny 'the children', don't we care, we were selfish.........
> 
> Well we were RIGHT again.


You are mixing up two events - the central american kids coming to the states and ISIS infiltrators. But again I repeat - closing the borders to an american ISIS is useless. By the way - hi Lakes and your comment would have been much improved without the acronym. Unnecessary to call names before noon.


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> And thank goodness we now do. In the old days our Forefathers fought battles with rifles and muskets--now we need helicopters, tanks, heavy artillery, bombs etc etc. Somehow I don't imagine they would have approved of civilians being in charge of such an arsenal. God knows I don't approve of war, but I'm pretty sure it would be impossible for Americans to fend off invaders with the contents of their gun lockers.


And while there are people who are itching to get their hands on drones, I would like to keep them in the hands of the gov't for the time being.


----------



## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> And therein lies a real problem. I'm concerned that rather than us watching events from afar, those events will spring up around us and we won't have seen it coming.


I am unclear on that statement. 
We are already talking about it coming, aren't we?
If we try to claim ignorance now we would sound like the Bush Administration after 9/11.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

SQM said:


> You are mixing up two events - the central american kids coming to the states and ISIS infiltrators. But again I repeat - closing the borders to an american ISIS is useless. By the way - hi Lakes and your comment would have been much improved without the acronym. Unnecessary to call names before noon.


Oh no she was not, even before the children, the left was complaining how , we were awful for not wanting to let illegals into this country. That there was no mention by them to sc\eduring our boraders. That we should be ashame for not welcoming everyone who crosses our borders. She is not calling names she is stating the facts that the left put out on KP over and over again.

Do you maybe think that those who came into this country at that time were not the enemy. History has all ready proven
that. 9/11, Boston marathon , Fort Hood, and even New York city.

But again they caught saying all should be allowed in and we should care for them, not meaning Terrorist at that time. But look at what has happen now.

The people who did not believe in allowing this were on the right.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitanon said:


> And while there are people who are itching to get their hands on drones, I would like to keep them in the hands of the gov't for the time being.


I think drones are being used for package delivery and the forecast is that more online companies will be using them.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Oh no she was not, even before the children, the left was complaining how , we were awful for not wanting to let illegals into this country. That there was no mention by them to sc\eduring our boraders. That we should be ashame for not welcoming everyone who crosses our borders.


Sorry, Yarnie--I don't recall even one post in which someone suggested welcoming "everyone"--including nut jobs armed with Korans and scimitars--into the country.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Linnier said:


> I am scared not only for Israel but for any nation that does not embrace extremist Islamic views. I received the following earlier this week. Chilling to say the least:
> The author of this email is Dr. Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist.
> 
> A German's View on Islam
> ...


I agree we must pay attention to the various groups of fanatics. I believe we also need to pay attention to the many silent majorities who do nothing about the terrorists that live among them.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> You are mixing up two events - the central american kids coming to the states and ISIS infiltrators. But again I repeat - closing the borders to an american ISIS is useless. By the way - hi Lakes and your comment would have been much improved without the acronym. Unnecessary to call names before noon.


No it is not a separate issue. With such porous borders ISIS can get in easily. If children can come unaccompanied across the border, what is to stop a terrorist? Nothing. The fence should have been built years ago, but Obama did nothing. So now we are unprotected.

Way to go Liberals...............you wanted to let illegals in and you got your wish.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

PS: No my acronym is accurate. Almost like saying if you are against abortion you are for rape.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> No it is not a separate issue. With such porous borders ISIS can get in easily. If children can come unaccompanied across the border, what is to stop a terrorist? Nothing. The fence should have been built years ago, but Obama did nothing. So now we are unprotected.
> 
> Way to go Liberals...............you wanted to let illegals in and you got your wish.


 :thumbup:


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> Oh no she was not, even before the children, the left was complaining how , we were awful for not wanting to let illegals into this country. That there was no mention by them to securing our borders. That we should be ashame for not welcoming everyone who crosses our borders. She is not calling names she is stating the facts that the left put out on KP over and over again.
> 
> Do you maybe think that those who came into this country at that time were not the enemy. History has all ready proven
> that. 9/11, Boston marathon , Fort Hood, and even New York city.
> ...


I'm pretty far to the left, but illegal immigration is a problem this country has to address.

How do you propose we secure our borders? The border between the US and Mexico is 1,954 miles long, while the border between the US and Canada is 5,525 miles long, including 1,538 miles shared with Alaska. (stats courtesy of Wikipedia) Should the states that border on Canada and Mexico be entirely responsible for border security in their states or should the Feds take full responsibility?

I'm not trying to be facetious here. I'm sincerely interested in solutions to illegal immigration and border security, especially in these days when there are so many terrorists who would love to do as much harm as possible to our country.

We can't support everyone who enters the US illegally. That's part of the reason we set limits on legal immigration. We've got borders that are almost 7,500 miles long. Securing that many miles of borders sounds pretty hard, if not impossible, to do. Comprehensive border security would be very costly. How many of us would be happy to pay more taxes to fund border security?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> No it is not a separate issue. With such porous borders ISIS can get in easily. If children can come unaccompanied across the border, what is to stop a terrorist? Nothing. The fence should have been built years ago, but Obama did nothing. So now we are unprotected.
> 
> Way to go Liberals...............you wanted to let illegals in and you got your wish.


What fence? People from your country, mine and many other countries are currently being recruited and are fighting with IS and a 'fence' wouldn't keep them out even if there was one. All they have to do is come back home with their valid passports, combat know-how and start fighting in our streets. David Cameron raised the UK's terror alert to severe for that very reason. Fence indeed.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> No it is not a separate issue. With such porous borders ISIS can get in easily. If children can come unaccompanied across the border, what is to stop a terrorist? Nothing. The fence should have been built years ago, but Obama did nothing. So now we are unprotected.
> 
> Way to go Liberals...............you wanted to let illegals in and you got your wish.


Try to listen, Lakes. Some ISIS terrorists are Americans with American Passports. They just need to fly back home or they are home already. What would sealing the southern border do to stop those who are already here???????


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I'm pretty far to the left, but illegal immigration is a problem this country has to address.
> 
> How do you propose we secure our borders? The border between the US and Mexico is 1,954 miles long, while the border between the US and Canada is 5,525 miles long, including 1,538 miles shared with Alaska. (stats courtesy of Wikipedia) Should the states that border on Canada and Mexico be entirely responsible for border security in their states or should the Feds take full responsibility?
> 
> ...


Concentrate on the southern border first. Leave it in the hands of the each state, as the federal gov't doesn't seem to care and hasn't for decades. When Gov. Perry had the Texas Rangers down at the border, the illegals stopped entering through Texas. Complete the fence. Increase border patrol and ICE agents. If Congress won't pay, then states can set up their own agencies. The main thing is to let the states handle their security and the job will get done. Return the illegals to their country of origin as quickly as possible. There is no need for US taxpayers to pay for them to reside here illegally.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Oh no she was not, even before the children, the left was complaining how , we were awful for not wanting to let illegals into this country. That there was no mention by them to sc\eduring our boraders. That we should be ashame for not welcoming everyone who crosses our borders. She is not calling names she is stating the facts that the left put out on KP over and over again.
> 
> Do you maybe think that those who came into this country at that time were not the enemy. History has all ready proven
> that. 9/11, Boston marathon , Fort Hood, and even New York city.
> ...


I know you believe what you say, but I doubt that you can find an actual quotation from a person on the left with any authority who said that "we should be ashamed for not welcoming *everyone* who crosses our borders."

Do I have to go through a list of terrorists like Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols in Oklahoma City, the Unabomber all over the country, and numerous others - see the lists in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_terrorism_in_the_United_States and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States

As for LTL "not calling names," what does she mean by "AOLW"? "Awesome Openly Lovely Women"? Or did she mean something you COWs* use as an insult to us all the time?

*Conservative Obnoxious Women


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry, Yarnie--I don't recall even one post in which someone suggested welcoming "everyone"--including nut jobs armed with Korans and scimitars--into the country.


Hi, Susan. You certainly took care of that in short order. I should have let you do all the talking.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> No it is not a separate issue. With such porous borders ISIS can get in easily. If children can come unaccompanied across the border, what is to stop a terrorist? Nothing. The fence should have been built years ago, but Obama did nothing. So now we are unprotected.
> 
> Way to go Liberals...............you wanted to let illegals in and you got your wish.


I don't know whether you're just pretending, or you're incapable of seeing the difference.

Do you know that during WWII, many Jews escaping Germany were not permitted to enter the US because they were Germans. So you're not the only one incapable of seeing very important differences.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> What fence? People from your country, mine and many other countries are currently being recruited and are fighting with IS and a 'fence' wouldn't keep them out even if there was one. All they have to do is come back home with their valid passports, combat know-how and start fighting in our streets. David Cameron raised the UK's terror alert to severe for that very reason. Fence indeed.


This is the scariest thing about ISIS: not just that they're dangerous Islamic terrorists but that they seem very attractive to young men in all of our countries, who can come and go as they please.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I don't know whether you're just pretending, or you're incapable of seeing the difference.
> 
> Do you know that during WWII, many Jews escaping Germany were not permitted to enter the US because they were Germans. So you're not the only one incapable of seeing very important differences.


I think the righties are determined _not_ to understand the difference, Purl. It's their golden opportunity to deport every man, woman, and child of Mexican descent under the guise of "Homeland Security". Frankly, it's disgusting.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> PS: No my acronym is accurate. Almost like saying if you are against abortion you are for rape.


You must have changed the meaning of your "acronym" while my back was turned (it's really just an abbreviation; acronyms are pronounceable as if they were words). What does it mean now? And what does it have to do with ISIS?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I think the righties are determined _not_ to understand the difference, Purl. It's their golden opportunity to deport every man, woman, and child of Mexican descent under the guise of "Homeland Security". Frankly, it's disgusting.


Yes, they're very determined, and it's very disgusting.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> Try to listen, Lakes. Some ISIS terrorists are Americans with American Passports. They just need to fly back home or they are home already. What would sealing the southern border do to stop those who are already here???????


No YOU try to listen. If the border patrol was not so busy stopping illegal aliens, they would have more time to check people coming into this country.

The border should have been made more secure over Obama's reign. It hasn't because they were too busy spending money on Fast and Furious. You are either for closing the border or not regardless of who is illegally coming in, we should be spending money on national security or not....This is what AOLW asked for and this is where it got us. Obama let the red line be crossed, and underestimated this JV team, and now we are in greater danger since 911. He has destroyed our military. We should be bombing ISIS NOW and not coming up with a strategy. We should have all Americans that went to Syria and other terrorist countries not on diplomatic missions have their passports made invalid. But no, Obama would rather play golf, go to fund raisers, not cancel his vacation and let underlings deal with our future. He is a pathetic coward not worthy of the Presidency.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> No YOU try to listen. If the border patrol was not so busy stopping illegal aliens, they would have more time to check people coming into this country.
> 
> The border should have been made more secure over Obama's reign. It hasn't because they were too busy spending money on Fast and Furious. You are either for closing the border or not regardless of who is illegally coming in, we should be spending money on national security or not....This is what AOLW asked for and this is where it got us. Obama let the red line be crossed, and underestimated this JV team, and now we are in greater danger since 911. He has destroyed our military. We should be bombing ISIS NOW and not coming up with a strategy. We should have all Americans that went to Syria and other terrorist countries not on diplomatic missions have their passports made invalid. But no, Obama would rather play golf, go to fund raisers, not cancel his vacation and let underlings deal with our future. He is a pathetic coward not worthy of the Presidency.


<sigh> *1)* There are now more border agents then ever before, thanks to the Obama administration. What do you propose--moats filled with alligators? *2*) Bombing isn't the answer to every problem, and would cause us more problems in the long run. We should learn from our mistakes. *3)* Obama has taken less vacation then the last 5 presidents, including Bush who took 3 months worth of vacation in his first 8 months in office. He also hasn't made flip remarks about an issue from the golf course and then said "now watch this drive" as one president famously did...oh yeah, that was Bush... *4)* Almost a year ago Obama asked Congress to vote for attacking Syria, as he is supposed to, and so far Congress has done...nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada. They do nothing, then if Obama acts they scream that he is overstepping. Sheesh.

Hey, it is 103° here today. I am sure it is Obama's fault.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> No YOU try to listen. If the border patrol was not so busy stopping illegal aliens, they would have more time to check people coming into this country.
> 
> The border should have been made more secure over Obama's reign. It hasn't because they were too busy spending money on Fast and Furious. You are either for closing the border or not regardless of who is illegally coming in, we should be spending money on national security or not....This is what AOLW asked for and this is where it got us. Obama let the red line be crossed, and underestimated this JV team, and now we are in greater danger since 911. He has destroyed our military. We should be bombing ISIS NOW and not coming up with a strategy. We should have all Americans that went to Syria and other terrorist countries not on diplomatic missions have their passports made invalid. But no, Obama would rather play golf, go to fund raisers, not cancel his vacation and let underlings deal with our future. He is a pathetic coward not worthy of the Presidency.


NU????? And what did the Repubs. do for the border? Nada. They aren't new borders and people crossing illegally is nothing new. It is to no one's advantage to seal the borders. As I have mentioned before but no one seems to be listening - open borders are good for the military so they get recruits, labor so they have people who will do jobs many citizens do not like and the American Catholic Church who gets new members. Since no president is a free agent but beholding to power groups - where is the incentive to close the borders for either side?


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## Knitanon (Sep 2, 2012)

SQM said:


> I think drones are being used for package delivery and the forecast is that more online companies will be using them.


Back in the day we had a saying 'want in one hand, spit in the other; see which is filled up first"

The CEO of Amazon would LIKE to use drones, the FAA is bringing charges against anyone who uses them commercially.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> <sigh> *1)* There are now more border agents then ever before, thanks to the Obama administration. What do you propose--moats filled with alligators? *2*) Bombing isn't the answer to every problem, and would cause us more problems in the long run. We should learn from our mistakes. *3)* Obama has taken less vacation then the last 5 presidents, including Bush who took 3 months worth of vacation in his first 8 months in office. He also hasn't made flip remarks about an issue from the golf course and then said "now watch this drive" as one president famously did...oh yeah, that was Bush... *4)* Almost a year ago Obama asked Congress to vote for attacking Syria, as he is supposed to, and so far Congress has done...nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada. They do nothing, then if Obama acts they scream that he is overstepping. Sheesh.
> 
> Hey, it is 103° here today. I am sure it is Obama's fault.


But Sumpleby, he was too busy spending money on Fast and Furious (which began in 2006). And Bush the vacation champion? Somehow those numbers never sink in.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitanon said:


> Back in the day we had a saying 'want in one hand, spit in the other; see which is filled up first"


I've never heard that one. I can't even guess what it means.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> No it is not a separate issue. With such porous borders ISIS can get in easily. If children can come unaccompanied across the border, what is to stop a terrorist? Nothing. The fence should have been built years ago, but Obama did nothing. So now we are unprotected.
> 
> Way to go Liberals...............you wanted to let illegals in and you got your wish.


Scuse me? The idea of a fence came up under Bush and was never pursued by him or Congress....Obama has increased the number of border guards.....if you are so darned concerned, move to a border state and join one of those volunteer border patrols. I believe the cliché is "put up or shut up"


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> No YOU try to listen. If the border patrol was not so busy stopping illegal aliens, they would have more time to check people coming into this country.
> 
> The border should have been made more secure over Obama's reign. It hasn't because they were too busy spending money on Fast and Furious. You are either for closing the border or not regardless of who is illegally coming in, we should be spending money on national security or not....This is what AOLW asked for and this is where it got us. Obama let the red line be crossed, and underestimated this JV team, and now we are in greater danger since 911. He has destroyed our military. We should be bombing ISIS NOW and not coming up with a strategy. We should have all Americans that went to Syria and other terrorist countries not on diplomatic missions have their passports made invalid. But no, Obama would rather play golf, go to fund raisers, not cancel his vacation and let underlings deal with our future. He is a pathetic coward not worthy of the Presidency.


You continue to amaze me, LTL. Your insistence on lumping an ISIS wacko traveling on an American passport with a two-year old Mexican tot being carried across the border by his mother defies all belief. Given the righties' enthusiasm for imprisonment, interrogation, and torture of all terrorist suspects I shudder to think where this might lead us as a nation. Under the leadership of those as thoughtless as you it's all too easy to imagine the worst: routine waterboarding sessions to "persuade" suspects to tell all they know, from the names of key contacts to the location of a cache of binkies.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> You continue to amaze me, LTL. Your insistence on lumping an ISIS wacko traveling on an American passport with a two-year old Mexican tot being carried across the border by his mother defies all belief. Given the righties' enthusiasm for imprisonment, interrogation, and torture of all terrorist suspects I shudder to think where this might lead us as a nation. Under the leadership of those as thoughtless as you it's all too easy to imagine the worst: routine waterboarding sessions to "persuade" suspects to tell all they know, from the names of key contacts to the location of a cache of binkies.


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I've never heard that one. I can't even guess what it means.


Thanks PP. I like the sounds of that statement but I also could not understand it. I am sure it is a most helpful statement.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> Scuse me? The idea of a fence came up under Bush and was never pursued by him or Congress....Obama has increased the number of border guards.....if you are so darned concerned, move to a border state and join one of those volunteer border patrols. I believe the cliché is "put up or shut up"


I always forget that Miss Cindy is a Texan. She is very insightful.
Do you live near the border?

Why do Texas, North Florida and Arizona frighten me?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> NU????? And what did the Repubs. do for the border? Nada. They aren't new borders and people crossing illegally is nothing new. It is to no one's advantage to seal the borders. As I have mentioned before but no one seems to be listening - open borders are good for the military so they get recruits, labor so they have people who will do jobs many citizens do not like and the American Catholic Church who gets new members. Since no president is a free agent but beholding to power groups - where is the incentive to close the borders for either side?


Likely, the reason no one is listening to you is because you are wrong.

Illegal aliens cannot join the USA military so they are of NO interest to military recruiters. One must be a citizen or a permanent LEGAL resident or hold a green card (depending on the service). ILLEGAL aliens do not meet the basic requirements. Our military is an all volunteer military, and you need to be able to pass the physical, aptitude test and have often higher educational/skills qualifications as well. Long gone are the days when derelicts, delinquents, or those with a criminal past or no brains or skills to offer can qualify or be accepted into the military. The military has been cut to the bone, they are lean, and mean and those without the qualifications need not apply. You don't join and automatically qualify to stay year after year either. You must continue to meet the physical requirements, and increase your skill set and worth to your service as you serve. There are no longer slouchers skating through and making rank.

Illegal aliens keep wages down for the Americans who WOULD do they very jobs the illegal aliens are taking from the American workers BECAUSE the illegal aliens will work for much less as the wages in America are much greater than where the IAs are from. They only decrease wages rates for all and take jobs from Americans.

I cannot speak to the Catholic Church as I don't know if their membership increases as you suggest.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

A couple of 'Aussie' guys. Until they were radicalized:

http://www.9news.com.au/National/2014/08/31/02/31/Queensland-father-brainwashed-into-joining-Islamic-State-jihadists


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Start with making sure there are laws with teeth pertaining to the people they have already identified. Then arrest and charge them. I also would not be adverse to thoroughly investigating their families and friends. I say let the NSA go wild.



SQM said:


> Protecting our borders from IS terrorists with American passports?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We know it's out there. We just need to pull our heads out of the sand. IMO



Wombatnomore said:


> And therein lies a real problem. I'm concerned that rather than us watching events from afar, those events will spring up around us and we won't have seen it coming.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No dear. YOU are confusing (deliberately) trained and armed terrorists and children coming to our country asking for help. 
YOU are the heartless, foolish person, not I. IMHO



lovethelake said:


> What??????????? Your comment is hypocritical in my opinion.
> 
> Weren't you and your AOLW the ones that wailed over and over again when a Conservative suggested that we secure our borders that we were hateful? How could we deny 'the children', don't we care, we were selfish.........
> 
> Well we were RIGHT again.


----------



## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Illegal aliens keep wages down for the Americans who WOULD do they very jobs the illegal aliens are taking from the American workers BECAUSE the illegal aliens will work for much less as the wages in America are much greater than where the IAs are from. They only decrease wages rates for all and take jobs from Americans.


Please tell a grower in California, Pennsylvania, Florida, Colorado and Texas how eagerly Americans want any available job. Then hope the grower does not have a coronary event as he rolls around on the ground helpless with laughter.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Likely, the reason no one is listening to you is because you are wrong.


In fact she's correct, KPG. This from the The Weekly Standard:

Report: 'Undocumented Immigrants' Will Be Able to 'Join the Military'
5:35 PM, MAY 30, 2014  BY DANIEL HALPER

The Huffington Post reports that the "Obama Administration Plans To Let Some Young Undocumented Immigrants Join The Military." The plans have been approved by the Pentagon.

"Pentagon officials have approved a policy that would allow a limited group of undocumented young people who came to the U.S. as children to enlist in the military, opening up a path for them to eventually become citizens, The Huffington Post has learned," reports the liberal website.

The move, which has not been formally announced by the Obama administration, would affect some of the roughly 550,000 undocumented young people granted the ability to remain in the country under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, many of whom have pled with the government to allow them to enlist.

Immigrants in the country legally can enlist in the military, and through their service, they can receive expedited naturalization as U.S. citizens. More than 89,000 service members have gained citizenship since September 2002, according to U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services. But young undocumented immigrants, often referred to as Dreamers, cannot currently enlist, even if they have been granted work authorization and the ability to remain in the country under DACA.

The new change, under a Pentagon recruitment plan called Military Accessions Vital to National Interest, would allow some undocumented immigrants with critical language or medical skills to enlist in the armed forces -- considerably limiting the number of Dreamers who would be eligible. Roughly 3,000 legal immigrants have enlisted through the MAVNI program since 2009, and now the program will be open to those who are in the country illegally."


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Those young people are ones that have been in the country all their lives, having been brought when they were small children.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Thank you Ms. Mojave and Ms. Mos.

The Sloth knows from which she speaks. 

Now it does not take too much imagination to realize the the Church only gets stronger from the immigrants who are mainly Catholics. 

So we will always have permeable borders. I am not claiming I am a proponent - just describing how things must be since the "problem" has never been solved. So we look for the cause for the effect. Pure logic.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Many of the disasters inflicted on this country are at the hands of disgruntled, anti-gummint extremists.

Are we talking about illegals risking their lives to work as migrant field hands, gardeners, nannies, restaurant workers for whatever they can make? 'Illegals' whose families have been here for generations? Children are American citizens. Do we send them back to a country they don't know and have no resources? Too heartless for me. I feel that we need a thorough overhall of our immigration policies.

Remember President Obama asking for this? Did anyone in our Congress move their butts or did they break for vacation?

But when it comes to protecting the USA from any potential attack, I feel differently.

Find another way to pat yourself on the back.

Ps. I thought this comment required more than my usual quick & sweet answer. Do you like this better?



theyarnlady said:


> Oh no she was not, even before the children, the left was complaining how , we were awful for not wanting to let illegals into this country. That there was no mention by them to sc\eduring our boraders. That we should be ashame for not welcoming everyone who crosses our borders. She is not calling names she is stating the facts that the left put out on KP over and over again.
> 
> Do you maybe think that those who came into this country at that time were not the enemy. History has all ready proven
> that. 9/11, Boston marathon , Fort Hood, and even New York city.
> ...


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> In fact she's correct, KPG. This from the The Weekly Standard:
> 
> Report: 'Undocumented Immigrants' Will Be Able to 'Join the Military'
> 5:35 PM, MAY 30, 2014  BY DANIEL HALPER
> ...


It is unfortunate that you cannot comprehend what you read.

Your article DOES NOT state that ILLEGAL Immigrants may join the USA military services.

In fact, YOU are also wrong in trying to correct my CORRECT words.

Try reading your article again and learn from it. It says SOME may be allowed to enlist  and be on a path to citizenship and ILLEGAL immigrants *CANNOT currently enlist *EXACTLY AS I SAID and no different that the requirements as they stand today.

The NEW change would allow a LIMITED number to join and stay even though they are illegal BECAUSE they have critical (translation; shortages) language or medical skills. (They has been the case before 2009 as well).

No where in your article does it say illegal immigrants can enlist in the USA military services.

Get your facts straight.

BTW: If you want to know the facts, go to the official USA Army, Air Force, Marines, Navy and Coast Guards sites. Don't use an editorial to give the facts. (You should also at least try to post an editorial that supports your opinion.)


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

mojave said:


> Please tell a grower in California, Pennsylvania, Florida, Colorado and Texas how eagerly Americans want any available job. Then hope the grower does not have a coronary event as he rolls around on the ground helpless with laughter.


You tell them, I never said that. You're story.


----------



## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You tell them, I never said that. You're story.


It is a specific example negating your broad claim of immigrants preventing Americans from obtaining jobs. It is called falsification of your claim. The pertinent phrase may be modus tollens - sorry if that's not correct - long time since logic classes.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

If the states need more military, they will make eligible illegals legal and get them to serve as cannon fodder. Whatever is expedient will be done.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

mojave said:


> It is a specific example negating your broad claim of immigrants preventing Americans from obtaining jobs.


No it wasn't. I didn't say immigrants prevented Americans from obtaining jobs. I said immigrants are willing to work for less wages and therefore depress Americans' wages. The Americans don't want the lower paying jobs that the illegal immigrants are willing to accept (less than minimum in many cases).

Learn to comprehend what you read.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> No it wasn't. I didn't say immigrants prevented Americans from obtaining jobs. I said immigrants suppresses wages and therefore Americans don't want the lower paying jobs that the illegal immigrants are willing to do for low wages (less than minimum in many cases).


This seems to have a ring of truth to it but I imagine this is not new news. This is how all immigrant groups got a foothold in the states.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> It is unfortunate that you cannot comprehend what you read.
> 
> Your article DOES NOT state that ILLEGAL Immigrants may join the USA military services.
> 
> ...


Well, yes it does. I thought you paraphrased it beautifully: "The new change would allow a limited number to join [the military] and stay even though they are illegal."

Why can you never admit that you were wrong? Where's that Christian humility you trumpet so often?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> If the states need more military, they will make eligible illegals legal and get them to serve as cannon fodder. Whatever is expedient will be done.


I agree with you completely, SQM. If this international situation continues to deteriorate, the military will be begging them to join. Why not? Most are bilingual to some degree, they're hungry for citizenship, and they're most assuredly not Muslim.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> No it wasn't. I didn't say immigrants prevented Americans from obtaining jobs. I said immigrants are willing to work for less wages and therefore depress Americans' wages. The Americans don't want the lower paying jobs that the illegal immigrants are willing to accept (less than minimum in many cases).
> 
> Learn to comprehend what you read.


My, someone's cranky tonight. Grow up.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Add Arizona to your list.



mojave said:


> Please tell a grower in California, Pennsylvania, Florida, Colorado and Texas how eagerly Americans want any available job. Then hope the grower does not have a coronary event as he rolls around on the ground helpless with laughter.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> No dear. YOU are confusing (deliberately) trained and armed terrorists and children coming to our country asking for help.
> YOU are the heartless, foolish person, not I. IMHO


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

mojave said:


> Please tell a grower in California, Pennsylvania, Florida, Colorado and Texas how eagerly Americans want any available job. Then hope the grower does not have a coronary event as he rolls around on the ground helpless with laughter.


Welcome back, Mojave. It's always good to hear sense from someone who knows what she's talking about.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> In fact she's correct, KPG. This from the The Weekly Standard:
> 
> Report: 'Undocumented Immigrants' Will Be Able to 'Join the Military'
> 5:35 PM, MAY 30, 2014  BY DANIEL HALPER
> ...


The Weekly Standard? That left-wing rag? Oh, wait, it's a right-wing rag. So it must speak the truth.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> It is unfortunate that you cannot comprehend what you read.
> 
> Your article DOES NOT state that ILLEGAL Immigrants may join the USA military services.
> 
> ...


 "and now the program will be open to those who are in the country illegally."



knitpresentgifts said:


> It is unfortunate that you cannot comprehend what you read.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

mojave said:


> It is a specific example negating your broad claim of immigrants preventing Americans from obtaining jobs. It is called falsification of your claim. The pertinent phrase may be modus tollens - sorry if that's not correct - long time since logic classes.


Don't worry about logic here. One of the funniest things I've seen on KP was KPG thinking she was proving that negative statements can be proved. I wish I had bookmarked it.


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## mmorris (Sep 5, 2013)

You get an 'A-Plus'. :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

Thank you for the lovely complements, Purl. Will try to contribute occasionally as time permits this semester. KPG did not seem too impressed. Oh well....


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

mojave said:


> Thank you for the lovely complements, Purl. Will try to contribute occasionally as time permits this semester. KPG did not seem too impressed. Oh well....


Nor too impressive.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Yes, you could argue until the cows come home. In my country, 'boat people' are continually intercepted in the waters northwest of the country. The current Australian government have a 'no boats will land on Australian shores' policy and they will not acquiesce. People on boats are being 'processed' in neighbouring countries like Papua New Guiney for example. My country have not processed asylum seekers for months and months.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> It is unfortunate that you cannot comprehend what you read.
> 
> Your article DOES NOT state that ILLEGAL Immigrants may join the USA military services.
> 
> ...


You make these grandiose statements and never back them up with links to support you point of view. The sources you supply here are nothing short of supporting you pretending to be a reactionist. A breed only known to the RIGHT. The righter you are the more reactionist you become. Patty Hearst has taught you well. Bless.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> NU????? And what did the Repubs. do for the border? Nada. They aren't new borders and people crossing illegally is nothing new. It is to no one's advantage to seal the borders. As I have mentioned before but no one seems to be listening - open borders are good for the military so they get recruits, labor so they have people who will do jobs many citizens do not like and the American Catholic Church who gets new members. Since no president is a free agent but beholding to power groups - where is the incentive to close the borders for either side?


No advantage to seal the border? Illegals can't and shouldn't serve in the military, they are illegally here and not citizens. American Catholic Church gets new members????? We don't have an USA Catholic Church. And how are adding illegals a positive?

Under Obama we have had a murdered ambassador and staff. We have a murdered general. We have had a beheading. We have had workplace violence,. We have had a border patrolman murdered with US aka Eric Holder guns (and yes obamacultist a type of Fast and Furious was started in '06 and Bush stopped it and Holder resurrected it). We have a president slapped down by the Supreme Court more than any other president. We have a Senate that has not passed a budget in 6 years. We have a military that is laying off people when we need them more than ever. We have veterans dying because of the incompetence of the VA. We have an IRS that is so scandalous that it behaves like Hitler's SS. We have a Marine in a Mexican jail, while the Mexican presidents lunches with the CA governor. (And to think Obama could have interrupted his vacation to have lunch in CA and get our Marine home, but I guess the links are too important than a Marine)

We have a president that prefers to play golf, go to parties and fund raisers instead of coming up with a strategy regarding ISIS. He would rather fly back to Washington from the Vineyard for a bachelor party than deal with a beheaded American. And to say Bush had more vacations is basically a lie (don't remember him or his wife taking over French Hotels, jaunts to the Vineyard, jaunts to Hawaii). He went to his home, just like Biden does on the weekends but you don't hear about that. And Bush going to his home, was cheaper for the American taxpayer because it was secured, no hotel bill, no weeks of Secret Service preparations, his office was already there with all the communications necessary for him to do his job.... Oh and if he visited his dad and mom that place was like Fort Knox too, so no big expense for the taxpayer. So Bush went home to family what a scandal.

I would bet my last dollar that if Bush 41, 43 or Reagan were president today there would not be fundraising events attended. Vacations would have been cancelled. There would be a strategy in place and put into action instead of having underlings discussing what to do with such a JV terrorist group. And my guess is that where ISIS is would have been turned into a sheet of glass. And Russia would not be humiliating them, defying them or reminding them he was a Super Power, because they were not emasculated and cowardly like this president. I cheered when the Prime Minister of Britain gave his speech about ISIS; such conviction a true leader. Then I was ashamed over the sissy press conference Obama gave. He is an embarrassment.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts
It is unfortunate that you cannot comprehend what you read.
Your article DOES NOT state that ILLEGAL Immigrants may join the USA military services.
In fact said:


> may be allowed to enlist [/u] and be on a path to citizenship and ILLEGAL immigrants *CANNOT currently enlist EXACTLY AS I SAID and no different that the requirements as they stand today.
> 
> The NEW change would allow a LIMITED number to join and stay even though they are illegal BECAUSE they have critical (translation; shortages) language or medical skills. (They has been the case before 2009 as well).
> 
> ...


*
============================

changed my mind -*


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Well, yes it does. I thought you paraphrased it beautifully: "The new change would allow a limited number to join (the military) and stay even though they are illegal."
> 
> Why can you never admit that you were wrong? Where's that Christian humility you trumpet so often?


You're welcome to continue to remain ignorant of the facts.

I'm not wrong - illegal immigrants are not allowed to enlist in the military services and your editorial stated the same. The article mentioned a limited # (200? a year) of exceptions and both of us mentioned the reason why those are allowed which has often been the case.

You purposefully dropped the end of my quote trying to make your point which is NOT the facts.

Go right ahead and pretend you proved your point which is not the topic of discussion and at which you failed.

You proved yourself unable to comprehend what you read and still you do not know the facts.

You're problem, not mine.

Oh, in closing, I'll state this about you, (like you did about me).

I wonder what kind of American citizen you are not being aware of the facts about our military. You know, the USA military who served and died for all Americans and the USA Military who gives their blood and treasure for themselves and others, for those like you who don't know what the USA military has done and does. The very men and women who serve you.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> No advantage to seal the border? Illegals can't and shouldn't serve in the military, they are illegally here and not citizens. American Catholic Church gets new members????? We don't have an USA Catholic Church. And how are adding illegals a positive?
> 
> Under Obama we have had a murdered ambassador and staff. We have a murdered general. We have had a beheading. We have had workplace violence,. We have had a border patrolman murdered with US aka Eric Holder guns (and yes obamacultist a type of Fast and Furious was started in '06 and Bush stopped it and Holder resurrected it). We have a president slapped down by the Supreme Court more than any other president. We have a Senate that has not passed a budget in 6 years. We have a military that is laying off people when we need them more than ever. We have veterans dying because of the incompetence of the VA. We have an IRS that is so scandalous that it behaves like Hitler's SS. We have a Marine in a Mexican jail, while the Mexican presidents lunches with the CA governor. (And to think Obama could have interrupted his vacation to have lunch in CA and get our Marine home, but I guess the links are too important than a Marine)
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You're welcome to continue to remain ignorant of the facts.
> 
> I'm not wrong - illegal immigrants are not allowed to enlist in the military services and your editorial stated the same. The article mentioned a limited # (200? a year) of exceptions and both of us mentioned the reason why those are allowed which has often been the case.
> 
> ...


What do you expect from those AOLW? Logic, facts, honesty, courage........ not going to happen. They are a cult that worships the coward in chief, because they can't even admit what a failure he has been over the past 6 years or even in the past month. He would rather have the Federal Government control school lunches under the guise of National Security, than seal the borders, get our Marine home, let ISIS behead more Americans (or anyone for that matter), let Russia steamroll over him like a bug on a road than man up and do his job. Glad I don't live in NYC, the left coast or DC because ISIS is gunning (or should I say dirty bombing) for them.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You're welcome to continue to remain ignorant of the facts.
> 
> I'm not wrong - illegal immigrants are not allowed to enlist in the military services and your editorial stated the same. The article mentioned a limited # (200? a year) of exceptions and both of us mentioned the reason why those are allowed which has often been the case.
> 
> ...


Frankly, KPG, I assumed the matter was closed and was prepared to move forward. But by all means let us carry on--you're making yourself look more foolish by the minute.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Frankly, KPG, I assumed the matter was closed and was prepared to move forward. But by all means let us carry on--you're making yourself look more foolish by the minute.


Well, you always 'ass'ume, but at least you are consistent on remaining a donkey and true to your party


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> What do you expect from those AOLW? Logic, facts, honesty, courage........ not going to happen. They are a cult that worships the coward in chief, because they can't even admit what a failure he has been over the past 6 years or even in the past month. He would rather have the Federal Government control school lunches under the guise of National Security, than seal the borders, get our Marine home, let ISIS behead more Americans (or anyone for that matter), let Russia steamroll over him like a bug on a road than man up and do his job. Glad I don't live in NYC, the left coast or DC because ISIS is gunning (or should I say dirty bombing) for them.


You're right. I'm going back to not wasting my time reading their ignorance and stupidity. Enough of that in the present Administration who is intentionally destroying our country that was fought and died for. They are to be blamed as well for supporting the idiots in charge.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Well, you always 'ass'ume, but at least you are consistent on remaining a donkey and true to your party


Susan also thinks illegal immigrants can simply enlist in the military. Cowards never learn and always avoid or twist the facts.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

http://www.ilrc.org/files/documents/faq_registering__enlisting_in_us_military_for_immgirants_final2.pdf

may help to know our laws enlistment of illegal immgrants.

Seem to me they can't as government has not made it a law.

So that would seem to me that someone has not bothered to check it out. So looks like you KPG are right.

So no more twisting of the facts.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> What do you expect from those AOLW? Logic, facts, honesty, courage........ not going to happen. They are a cult that worships the coward in chief, because they can't even admit what a failure he has been over the past 6 years or even in the past month. He would rather have the Federal Government control school lunches under the guise of National Security, than seal the borders, get our Marine home, let ISIS behead more Americans (or anyone for that matter), let Russia steamroll over him like a bug on a road than man up and do his job. Glad I don't live in NYC, the left coast or DC because ISIS is gunning (or should I say dirty bombing) for them.


Is there a liberal city in Virginia? I'm moving.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Well, you always 'ass'ume, but at least you are consistent on remaining a donkey and true to your party


 All one has to do is look up the facts. So it seem you are right about that.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

SQM said:


> Try to listen, Lakes. Some ISIS terrorists are Americans with American Passports. They just need to fly back home or they are home already. What would sealing the southern border do to stop those who are already here???????


You're forgetting that we have a very long border with Canada. I find it difficult to believe only our southern border might be used by terrorists to enter the US.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> In fact she's correct, KPG. This from the The Weekly Standard:
> 
> Report: 'Undocumented Immigrants' Will Be Able to 'Join the Military'
> 5:35 PM, MAY 30, 2014  BY DANIEL HALPER
> ...


This sounds like an excellent way for young illegal immigrants to prove just how much they want to be American citizens


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Duplicate post


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> No advantage to seal the border? Illegals can't and shouldn't serve in the military, they are illegally here and not citizens. American Catholic Church gets new members????? We don't have an USA Catholic Church. And how are adding illegals a positive?
> 
> Under Obama we have had a murdered ambassador and staff. We have a murdered general. We have had a beheading. We have had workplace violence,. We have had a border patrolman murdered with US aka Eric Holder guns (and yes obamacultist a type of Fast and Furious was started in '06 and Bush stopped it and Holder resurrected it). We have a president slapped down by the Supreme Court more than any other president. We have a Senate that has not passed a budget in 6 years. We have a military that is laying off people when we need them more than ever. We have veterans dying because of the incompetence of the VA. We have an IRS that is so scandalous that it behaves like Hitler's SS. We have a Marine in a Mexican jail, while the Mexican presidents lunches with the CA governor. (And to think Obama could have interrupted his vacation to have lunch in CA and get our Marine home, but I guess the links are too important than a Marine)
> 
> ...


President Bush #43 spent 1,020 days on vacation during his two-term presidency.

There are Catholic churches all over the US. They don't all conform strictly to Catholic dogma. They actually do have an American twist on Catholic dogma and their rejection of some tenets of Catholicism makes it reasonable to describe the Church in this country as the USA Catholic Church


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> http://www.ilrc.org/files/documents/faq_registering__enlisting_in_us_military_for_immgirants_final2.pdf
> 
> may help to know our laws enlistment of illegal immgrants.
> 
> ...


Tell me something, Yarnlady. Have you ever thought that KPG was actually wrong, ever, about anything?

Susan was referring to a new change in a program, which is too new to be on the army or navy etc. website or in the old files you were looking at. Don't be so quick to tell her she's wrong.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> President Bush #43 spent 1,020 days on vacation during his two-term presidency.
> 
> There are Catholic churches all over the US. They don't all conform strictly to Catholic dogma. They actually do have an American twist on Catholic dogma and their rejection of some tenets of Catholicism makes it reasonable to describe the Church in this country as the USA Catholic Church


You forgot to point out that while Katrina was devastating New Orleans, Bush had time to go to a birthday party for Strom Thurmond or someone like that, but no time for anything but a flyover for New Orleans.

It's amazing how their memories fade. 1,020 days is *2 years and 9 months* of vacation out of 8 years (almost 30% of his time in office). Do you know how often it's been shown that Bush took more vacation days than Obama will ever be able to? Yet they begrudge Obama his vacations and simply forget Bush's. Could that be dementia or simply low IQ on their part?


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> No advantage to seal the border? Illegals can't and shouldn't serve in the military, they are illegally here and not citizens. American Catholic Church gets new members????? We don't have an USA Catholic Church. And how are adding illegals a positive?
> 
> Under Obama we have had a murdered ambassador and staff. We have a murdered general. We have had a beheading. We have had workplace violence,. We have had a border patrolman murdered with US aka Eric Holder guns (and yes obamacultist a type of Fast and Furious was started in '06 and Bush stopped it and Holder resurrected it). We have a president slapped down by the Supreme Court more than any other president. We have a Senate that has not passed a budget in 6 years. We have a military that is laying off people when we need them more than ever. We have veterans dying because of the incompetence of the VA. We have an IRS that is so scandalous that it behaves like Hitler's  SS. We have a Marine in a Mexican jail, while the Mexican presidents lunches with the CA governor. (And to think Obama could have interrupted his vacation to have lunch in CA and get our Marine home, but I guess the links are too important than a Marine)
> 
> ...


You know, repeating something over and over will not change reality and make it true.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...marthas-vineyard-oped-08-20140814-column.html

"This president has left the White House for vacations a total of 125 partial or complete days since he took office in 2009, by Knoller's count. By comparison, President George W. Bush spent 381 partial or complete days at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, and another 26 days at the Bush family compound in Kennebunkport, Maine." That was a comparison

The president pays for lodging, food and other incidentals. As with EVERY president, the government pays for Air Force One and the secret service men. So what if he doesn't vacation in Texas?

And you will notice that, fine speeches aside, Britain & Europe aren't rushing to oppose Russia's incursion into Ukraine, or to fight ISIS. Exactly why is it OUR business to be the sole opponents to these groups? Of course, our Congress makes a lot of noise about what Obama should be doing, but never puts its money where its mouth is, do they? And if Obama were to act unilaterally they would scream like stuck pigs and accuse him of being a "king" or a "dictator" for doing what they say they want him to do. Hypocrites.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> You know, repeating something over and over will not change reality and make it true.
> 
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...marthas-vineyard-oped-08-20140814-column.html
> 
> ...


What will you bet that your message goes completely unread?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> You make these grandiose statements and never back them up with links to support you point of view. The sources you supply here are nothing short of supporting you pretending to be a reactionist. A breed only known to the RIGHT. The righter you are the more reactionist you become. Patty Hearst has taught you well. Bless.


But wait! She supplies links: the army, navy, etc. websites. Which are probably updated monthly if at all and are necessarily behind news reports.

But I don't get the reference to Patty Hearst. I know who she is, but where is her part in this?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> No advantage to seal the border? Illegals can't and shouldn't serve in the military, they are illegally here and not citizens. American Catholic Church gets new members????? We don't have an USA Catholic Church. And how are adding illegals a positive?
> 
> Under Obama we have had a murdered ambassador and staff. We have a murdered general. We have had a beheading. We have had workplace violence,.


And in the years 2001-2009 we had nothing? Remember Faluja? Probably not, the way you don't remember Bush's vacations or partygoing or - in fact - dumb, useless, costly war.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

here is the newest one green card required for five years.
http://www.fairus.org/DocServer/amnesty_2014_debate/Military_DREAM_Act_Policy_Statement.pdf


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> here is the newest one green card required for five years.
> http://www.fairus.org/DocServer/amnesty_2014_debate/Military_DREAM_Act_Policy_Statement.pdf


This does not appear to be a government-issued statement but one from some organization. The term "kicked out" was used which is a bit slangy for an official statement. So who is this organization? They should be told about 'code switching'- not using slang in official documents. This article does not pass Sloth Editing, Inc.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> here is the newest one green card required for five years.
> http://www.fairus.org/DocServer/amnesty_2014_debate/Military_DREAM_Act_Policy_Statement.pdf


This isn't a source. It's an opinion piece, or rather an advocacy piece.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> You know, repeating something over and over will not change reality and make it true.
> 
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...marthas-vineyard-oped-08-20140814-column.html
> 
> ...


There's a new thread on this subject at http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-282896-1.html (*If You're Upset About Obama's Golf Game, Here's Reagan Goofing Off During Major Events*).


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> In fact she's correct, KPG. This from the The Weekly Standard:
> 
> Report: 'Undocumented Immigrants' Will Be Able to 'Join the Military'
> 5:35 PM, MAY 30, 2014  BY DANIEL HALPER
> ...


There it is in a nutshell. "The Obama Administration PLANS to let... How does he plan to do this? Perhaps with his pen or phone. Will this action be another one where SCOTUS will tell him that's illegal? Probably, another way to ensure votes for the Party, that's for sure.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> Those young people are ones that have been in the country all their lives, having been brought when they were small children.


They have been here illegally most of their lives. Have they even attempted to become citizens? Probably not- they just want the benefits. What's stopping them? Perhaps they don't really want to be American citizens. If not, they should return to their country of origin and allow those that truly want to be citizens the ability to become one legally.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> They have been here illegally most of their lives. Have they even attempted to become citizens? Probably not- they just want the benefits. What's stopping them? Perhaps they don't really want to be American citizens. If not, they should return to their country of origin and allow those that truly want to be citizens the ability to become one legally.


They are Americans - albeit central or south.

Why are you always filled with such wrath?


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

damemary said:


> No dear. YOU are confusing (deliberately) trained and armed terrorists and children coming to our country asking for help.
> YOU are the heartless, foolish person, not I. IMHO


In case you missed it, children are being trained as terrorists. They are doing the dirty work for the terrorists. Adults are planning while the children are carrying out the plans. This is nothing new.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

SQM said:


> They are Americans - albeit central or south.
> 
> Why are you always filled with such wrath?


No they aren't. They are illegally here and through their actions that is the way they choose to live. If they want to prove they are "American" then take the necessary steps to become a citizen. Just because you have been living here for a number of years, it does NOT make you an American - despite all the propaganda to the contrary. They are in a state of limbo, neither their country of origin nor the US recognizes them. They need to make a choice. There are people waiting years to come to this country to be citizens. It would be nice to see these illegals show an ounce of that eagerness to become an American citizen.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I was referring to your use of Americans. They are Americans tho not citizens of the United States.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

SQM said:


> I was referring to your use of Americans. They are Americans tho not citizens of the United States.


Now, let's not put forth something that, while true, will fly right over Solowey's head


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> Now, let's not put forth something that, while true, will fly right over Solowey's head


Oh sorry I flew over Slowey's head. At least I am not a pigeon.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> President Bush #43 spent 1,020 days on vacation during his two-term presidency.
> 
> There are Catholic churches all over the US. They don't all conform strictly to Catholic dogma. They actually do have an American twist on Catholic dogma and their rejection of some tenets of Catholicism makes it reasonable to describe the Church in this country as the USA Catholic Church


Define vacation. I don't think a vacation is a return to home. If obamacultist want to define it as number of days away from the WH, then I think there should be an accounting of what was done on each vacation day and what did that vacation day cost the American taxpayer. Regardless, Obama should have had respect for the beheaded journalist and not fly off after the bachelor party that Monday night before the American people knew about the beheading. He is having a grand time with the 1%'ers on the golf course and attending fund raisers while Americans were sickened with the news and views of the beheading. He has no class or respect for anyone because I believe he is a sociopathic narcissist that only thinks about himself. And when he does not get his way he whines, pouts and blames other people for his woes. He should not be wearing a "Summer suit" he should be wearing knickers because he doesn't know how to wear big boy pants.

The US churches do not have a choice whether or not to follow a Church Doctrine. To do so is a violation of Church Law, and priests have been removed from the priesthood because of those violations. Meaning they are no longer priests and not in good standing with the Church (meaning they are one step away from excommunication) But as a non-Catholic your opinion or so called facts are irrelevant and false. Just ask Nancy Pelosi who is no longer allowed to receive the sacraments because of her views on abortions, obamacare and not defending the Church's violation of religious freedom.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> There it is in a nutshell. "The Obama Administration PLANS to let... How does he plan to do this? Perhaps with his pen or phone. Will this action be another one where SCOTUS will tell him that's illegal? Probably, another way to ensure votes for the Party, that's for sure.


He won't in the near future or ever. He has had so much attack from both sides of the aisle over his lack of a strategy over ISIS and his callous disrespect for the beheaded journalist because he thought it was more important to play golf and raise money than respect the dead. Just look at what his approval of the Arab Spring got us................more terrorists. He is such a coward and so over his head it is embarrassing. Maybe he should give back his unearned Nobel Peace Prize. Because for him to keep it is a slap in the face to the men and women that have devoted their lives and worked to earn it.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

http://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/HTML/PolicyManual-Volume12-PartI-Chapter3.html#S-E

You may want to read the parts in blue as to see what is meant.

Does this help it is put out by the government.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Define vacation. I don't think a vacation is a return to home. If obamacultist want to define it as number of days away from the WH, then I think there should be an accounting of what was done on each vacation day and what did that vacation day cost the American taxpayer. Regardless, Obama should have had respect for the beheaded journalist and not fly off after the bachelor party that Monday night before the American people knew about the beheading. He is having a grand time with the 1%'ers on the golf course and attending fund raisers while Americans were sickened with the news and views of the beheading. He has no class or respect for anyone because I believe he is a sociopathic narcissist that only thinks about himself. And when he does not get his way he whines, pouts and blames other people for his woes. He should not be wearing a "Summer suit" he should be wearing knickers because he doesn't know how to wear big boy pants.
> 
> The US churches do not have a choice whether or not to follow a Church Doctrine. To do so is a violation of Church Law, and priests have been removed from the priesthood because of those violations. Meaning they are no longer priests and not in good standing with the Church (meaning they are one step away from excommunication) But as a non-Catholic your opinion or so called facts are irrelevant and false. Just ask Nancy Pelosi who is no longer allowed to receive the sacraments because of her views on abortions, obamacare and not defending the Church's violation of religious freedom.


You talk an awful lot for someone who has nothing worthwhile to say.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You talk an awful lot for someone who has nothing worthwhile to say.


Actually the comment about the summer suit was so brilliant. So I think this was an important and worthwhile post.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> http://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/HTML/PolicyManual-Volume12-PartI-Chapter3.html#S-E
> 
> You may want to read the parts in blue as to see what is meant.
> 
> Does this help it is put out by the government.


It's all about customer service. It doesn't say anything relevant.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Actually the comment about the summer suit was so brilliant. So I think this was an important and worthwhile post.


I stand corrected. Or would, if I didn't have a pain in my foot.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It's all about customer service. It doesn't say anything relevant.


What are you looking at. Not sure. This is about the military and it policys. It is put out by your government. Do you ever read anything or do you just pretend you do .


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> I was referring to your use of Americans. They are Americans tho not citizens of the United States.


Sorry, but no. While I agree with a lot of what you say, this is a straw man argument that I can't support. While I sympathize with those who were brought here as children, or those who are refugees from an horrendous situation, I am NOT a supporter of illegal immigration in general. Want to come here? Come and be welcome--if you come legally.

By your argument Canadians are Americans. And we are Mexicans, Guatemalans or whatever. People from other countries are citizens of those countries, not ours. Whenever anyone in the world say "America" they mean our country, the US, and no other country. Others might call themselves "north Americans" or "south Americans" because they lived on these continents, but they are not ipso facto "Americans" as in the USA.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> What are you looking at. Not sure. This is about the military and it policys. It is put out by your government. Do you ever read anything or do you just pretend you do .


I'm sorry - you're right. I went a little too far. When I got to the opening page, I looked at the top, where it said "UPDATES," so I clicked on that to see how recently it was updated. Well, it was updated on Aug. 26, 2014, but only with respect to Customer Service, and then I couldn't get out of that.

I'm not sure where to look for the new change that will or will not allow illegal immigrants to join the armed forces.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I don't know if this has been posted yet. It's an article about an IS computer being found with plans and instructions for biological weapons.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/08/28/found_the_islamic_state_terror_laptop_of_doom_bubonic_plague_weapons_of_mass_destruction_exclusive#_


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> Sorry, but no. While I agree with a lot of what you say, this is a straw man argument that I can't support. While I sympathize with those who were brought here as children, or those who are refugees from an horrendous situation, I am NOT a supporter of illegal immigration in general. Want to come here? Come and be welcome--if you come legally.
> 
> By your argument Canadians are Americans. And we are Mexicans, Guatemalans or whatever. People from other countries are citizens of those countries, not ours. Whenever anyone in the world say "America" they mean our country, the US, and no other country. Others might call themselves "north Americans" or "south Americans" because they lived on these continents, but they are not ipso facto "Americans" as in the USA.


Please think continents.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't know if this has been posted yet. It's an article about an IS computer being found with plans and instructions for biological weapons.
> http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/08/28/found_the_islamic_state_terror_laptop_of_doom_bubonic_plague_weapons_of_mass_destruction_exclusive#_


This is truly scary.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> This is truly scary.


Are you familiar with the publication?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Are you familiar with the publication?


It's not one of those Breitbart followers. I've heard of it, but i don't remember what was said.

Okay - read wikipedia. it seems to be a sane, centrist pub. Nebraska got it right.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> This is truly scary.


I dunno, Purl. How sharp could Muhammed S., owner of the laptop, be? He's supposed to be a university-educated science whiz bent on making biological weapons, but somehow he's not capable of deleting hidden files or even getting his name off the thing.

Either Muhammed needs to go back to school or the laptop was planted. If all ISIS recruits were this dumb we'd have nothing to fear.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Well, you always 'ass'ume, but at least you are consistent on remaining a donkey and true to your party


What an unkind person you are!!! Every post is nasty and hurtful.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Please think continents.


People have included us as living in America. The US is the country that uses the continent as another name for US citizens, and the U.S. as America.

It is fine with me, I prefer to be called a Canadian as it shows that I am from my favorite country in the world. I do not ever remember being called an American. North American yes in that context - I am a Canadian, not an American. I have to admit that it is certainly what is preferable to us. I would quickly correct anyone who called me an American.

I like my country named. It is nice that sometimes people do remember that there are two countries bordering "America" but none of us lose any sleep over it as we are known by our names so the US is welcome to it in my opinion.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> here is the newest one green card required for five years.
> http://www.fairus.org/DocServer/amnesty_2014_debate/Military_DREAM_Act_Policy_Statement.pdf


You are correct Yarnie, and the Libs are wrong.

The USA military does NOT presently allow illegal immigrants to enlist into one of the armed services. There has always been and still remains exceptions as noted previously (i.e. critical shortages in language speakers or medical skills - highly doubtful that those illegal immigrants SQM referred to have those critical and necessary skills).

As I have said prior, you must be a US citizen, have a permanent residence and a green card or visa and be in the country *legally.* *Illegal* immigrants need not apply.

For those who don't know how to look up official military websites, here are two screen shots that I did their work for them, looked up and posted here. The Libs are free to look up the other services to see how wrong they are.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Actually the comment about the summer suit was so brilliant. So I think this was an important and worthwhile post.



----


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> There it is in a nutshell. "The Obama Administration PLANS to let... How does he plan to do this? Perhaps with his pen or phone. Will this action be another one where SCOTUS will tell him that's illegal? Probably, another way to ensure votes for the Party, that's for sure.


Yep, because 0 despises the military, but loves his illegal immigrants.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> They are Americans - albeit central or south.
> 
> Why are you always filled with such wrath?


Wrong again, Sloth. You know full well we were discussing those who come to America from other countries and are in the US illegally. They are * illegal * immigrants within the USA. The military doesn't accept criminals.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Are you familiar with the publication?


I've never heard of it. A friend sent the link.

Huff Post tagged it.???
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/28/found-the-islamic-states-_n_5733028.html


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Tell me something, Yarnlady. Have you ever thought that KPG was actually wrong, ever, about anything?
> 
> Susan was referring to a new change in a program, which is too new to be on the army or navy etc. website or in the old files you were looking at. Don't be so quick to tell her she's wrong.


Foolish questionPurl. We all know the answer


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Foolish questionPurl. We all know the answer





Designer1234 said:


> What an unkind person you are!!! Every post is nasty and hurtful.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

yarnie is really a very nice person. That is a fact. I like her and I think she is sincere in her beliefs- She is a good friend to you. I hope you appreciate it but for some reason I doubt it. She will defend you and is a true friend to you. I hope it is reciprocated.

Enough from me. I don't like carrying on conversations with you. I think i might have hurt yarnie, that is the only reason I am answering.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> But wait! She supplies links: the army, navy, etc. websites. Which are probably updated monthly if at all and are necessarily behind news reports.
> 
> But I don't get the reference to Patty Hearst. I know who she is, but where is her part in this?


She was considered to have suffered 'Stockholm Syndrome' but I don't agree. I saw her as a hypocrite who knew exactly what she was doing.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> She was considered to have suffered 'Stockholm Syndrome' but I don't agree. I saw her as a hypocrite who knew exactly what she was doing.


Okay. I never saw her spoken about like that, but you probably have your reasons.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> Please think continents.


I did. To reiterate: being a North American or a South American by virtue of living on these continents does not equal being an American. Ask anyone in the world what America or an "American" is and the answer will be the US. Not Mexico. Not Brazil. Not Guatemala. Not Canada. To say that someone has a right to come to our country illegally simply because they live on these continents and are therefore "Americans" is a straw man argument.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> What an unkind person you are!!! Every post is nasty and hurtful.


Thought you weren't going to respond to me.

Why don't you read the post I was responding to, and maybe you would have a better understanding about my reply?


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> My question is why did the Ferguson cops keep the uncovered body on the street for 4 hours? It took that long to make a crime scene???
> 
> Does anyone suspect that Joan Rivers was in to get her face pulled again and something went horribly wrong?


I just reread the article about the death of Olivia Goldsmith (First Wives Club) from cardiac arrest apparently related to anaesthesia, during a chin tuck. The price of looking younger can be too high. Does it get to the point that skin is stretched as far as it can go? The older we get the less elastic the skin is, as well.

My thought is I earned my face by living my life. People tell me I look younger than my actual age, but that is just an accident of the genes I inherited and efforts to eat properly and stay away from smoke and smokers. I try to stay out of the sun and use sun screen, too. But the thought of surgery (anathema is too strong a term) to make me look younger strikes me as ludicrous. Whom would I be trying to kid? And my blood vessels, joints, and internal organs are the age they are. Nothing is going to make my innards young again. Oh well, to each their own.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> yarnie is really a very nice person. That is a fact. I like her and I think she is sincere in her beliefs- She is a good friend to you. I hope you appreciate it but for some reason I doubt it. She will defend you and is a true friend to you. I hope it is reciprocated.
> 
> Enough from me. I don't like carrying on conversations with you. I think i might have hurt yarnie, that is the only reason I am answering.


Enough from you is appropriate. You 'think' you might have hurt Yarnie? Give me a break, you insult most everyone, repeatedly, from the Denim thread. It's your MO and then you carry on about how much you hate talking to us and don't stop running your mouth about us.

Here's some good advice for you. Keep your nose and mouth out of my life and business and concern yourself with your own.

Yarnie and I have a friendship that runs deeper than you'll ever know. I do not discuss my relationship with anyone but the one who I consider my dear friend.

So go peddle your hatred elsewhere and leave us alone or better yet stop it and treat others with love and respect. You have no idea what friendship is or could be or how to treat others.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Enough from you is appropriate. You 'think' you might have hurt Yarnie? Give me a break, you insult everyone, repeatedly, from the Denim thread. It's your MO and then you carry on about how much you hate talking to us and don't stop running your mouth about us.
> 
> Here's some good advice for you. Keep your nose and mouth out of my life and business and concern yourself with your own.


Wise up, KPG. Designer is one of the nicest ladies here and I don't think you'll receive widespread support from your cronies for your hateful attacks on her.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> I just reread the article about the death of Olivia Goldsmith (First Wives Club) from cardiac arrest apparently related to anaesthesia, during a chin tuck. The price of looking younger can be too high. Does it get to the point that skin is stretched as far as it can go? The older we get the less elastic the skin is, as well.
> 
> My thought is I earned my face by living my life. People tell me I look younger than my actual age, but that is just an accident of the genes I inherited and efforts to eat properly and stay away from smoke and smokers. I try to stay out of the sun and use sun screen, too. But the thought of surgery (anathema is too strong a term) to make me look younger strikes me as ludicrous. Whom would I be trying to kid? And my blood vessels, joints, and internal organs are the age they are. Nothing is going to make my innards young again. Oh well, to each their own.


Because of the above, I have stopped coloring my hair. As I asked my hair person, who am I kidding? I just have age-inappropriate cuts and that is good enough. All surgeries have their risks but I think Rivers was having some throat problems. But why did she opt to have it done in a dr's office at her age? We have a grand choice of hospitals in NYC.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> Because of the above, I have stopped coloring my hair. As I asked my hair person, who am I kidding? I just have age-inappropriate cuts and that is good enough. All surgeries have their risks but I think Rivers was having some throat problems. But why did she opt to have it done in a dr's office at her age? We have a grand choice of hospitals in NYC.


I don't know. But it sounds as if she was just having an endoscopy (camera threaded into the GI tract to take a look around), and that's generally not a big deal. I'm not a big Joan Rivers fan, but I am sad about this. Hope she recovers.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Latest re Israel:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-claims-400-hectares-in-west-bank-for-state-use-9702112.html


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> Because of the above, I have stopped coloring my hair. As I asked my hair person, who am I kidding? I just have age-inappropriate cuts and that is good enough. All surgeries have their risks but I think Rivers was having some throat problems. But why did she opt to have it done in a dr's office at her age? We have a grand choice of hospitals in NYC.


Myself, I don't color my hair to hide my age--I make no secret of that! I am waiting for it to turn entirely gray to make sure it is the right sort. I am a blond and so many of us get that ugly yellowy gray. If mine goes that way the color stays. If I get a beautiful white or silvery gray the color goes. Right now I am only about 50% gray according to the hairdresser, so it is wait and see.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> Myself, I don't color my hair to hide my age--I make no secret of that! I am waiting for it to turn entirely gray to make sure it is the right sort. I am a blond and so many of us get that ugly yellowy gray. If mine goes that way the color stays. If I get a beautiful white or silvery gray the color goes. Right now I am only about 50% gray according to the hairdresser.


No grays yet, but when that time arrives I'm with you, Sumpleby. Some shades of gray and white are gorgeous.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

KPG said "So go peddle your hatred elsewhere", you should take your own advice


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> I just reread the article about the death of Olivia Goldsmith (First Wives Club) from cardiac arrest apparently related to anaesthesia, during a chin tuck. The price of looking younger can be too high. Does it get to the point that skin is stretched as far as it can go? The older we get the less elastic the skin is, as well.
> 
> My thought is I earned my face by living my life. People tell me I look younger than my actual age, but that is just an accident of the genes I inherited and efforts to eat properly and stay away from smoke and smokers. I try to stay out of the sun and use sun screen, too. But the thought of surgery (anathema is too strong a term) to make me look younger strikes me as ludicrous. Whom would I be trying to kid? And my blood vessels, joints, and internal organs are the age they are. Nothing is going to make my innards young again. Oh well, to each their own.


I feel exactly the same way. When my son died I turned salt and pepper in two months. When my husband had his serious (extremely serious heart surgery I turned very grey, now my hair is white. I earned the white hair. Never thought I wanted it colored or hidden. I think Joan Rivers looks dreadful, unnatural and rather sad. I guess it is the 'in' thing, but not for me. I am my age, have never dreaded it and never been ashamed of it. I have earned my age.  :thumbup:


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> I dunno, Purl. How sharp could Muhammed S., owner of the laptop, be? He's supposed to be a university-educated science whiz bent on making biological weapons, but somehow he's not capable of deleting hidden files or even getting his name off the thing.
> 
> Either Muhammed needs to go back to school or the laptop was planted. If all ISIS recruits were this dumb we'd have nothing to fear.


How smart to you have to be to behead someone, cut off their hand, stone a woman to death, execute a group of people or strap a bomb to yourself? Intelligence doesn't seem to be a requirement.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> How smart to you have to be to behead someone, cut off their hand, stone a woman to death, execute a group of people or strap a bomb to yourself?


Not very, but they're aren't going to conquer us with stones and scimitars. Shariah comes later, after their camels have loped into town and they've taken over. I agree though that bombs are a real threat--any dope can make one and, as we know from the Boston Marathon, the effects can be devastating.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> KPG said "So go peddle your hatred elsewhere", you should take your own advice


Cindy, I recognize you don't usually offer anything of your own to say, but when you quote another, at least learn how to do it correctly. Don't eliminate words or take sentences out of context. May I suggest the same advice I told another who repeatedly insults me, could easily apply to you as well.

I *said*, _"So go peddle your hatred elsewhere and leave us alone or better yet stop it and treat others with love and respect. You have no idea what friendship is or could be or how to treat others."_


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You forgot to point out that while Katrina was devastating New Orleans, Bush had time to go to a birthday party for Strom Thurmond or someone like that, but no time for anything but a flyover for New Orleans.
> 
> It's amazing how their memories fade. 1,020 days is *2 years and 9 months* of vacation out of 8 years (almost 30% of his time in office). Do you know how often it's been shown that Bush took more vacation days than Obama will ever be able to? Yet they begrudge Obama his vacations and simply forget Bush's. Could that be dementia or simply low IQ on their part?


Perhaps you felt, instead of attending a party, Bush could have huffed and puffed and blew Katrina away from NO. Bush didn't land because he knew the people needed their first responders and he didn't want them to divert their attention away from that. It is amazing how memories fade.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Cindy, I recognize you don't ever offer anything of your own to say, but when you quote another, at least learn how to do it correctly. Don't eliminate words or take sentences out of context. May I suggest the same advice I told another could easily apply to you as well.
> 
> I *said*, _"So go peddle your hatred elsewhere and leave us alone or better yet stop it and treat others with love and respect. You have no idea what friendship is or could be or how to treat others."_


Sound advice, KPG, but since you seem unable to take it I have something better: have the snake charmer close the top on your basket.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Wise up, KPG. Designer is one of the nicest ladies here and I don't think you'll receive widespread support from your cronies for your hateful attacks on her.


Think again, we see her for what she really is.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> This article has spooked me:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/World/2014/08/30/19/39/Saudi-king-warns-West-will-be-next-terrorism-target
> 
> ...


Why waste energy striking when all they have to do is wait for an implosion. News article this week about Burger King moving to Canada and noting that BK has a major office in Brazil. The article went on to say that many major corporations have international ownership and feel no loyalty to any nation, just to their stockholders. They will move headquarters to wherever they can maximize profits. The entanglements within each corporation are such nobody can really figure out where they are truly located. And all the countries that have had these corporations do business and then move taxable portions to other countries with lower taxes end up having to cover their costs by increasing taxes on us citizens who don't have the option to relocate. We are moving backward to a feudal culture.

In another article it was written that union membership is in a steady decline. When the union movement began it served to help people progress toward shorter work days (40 hours), benefits such as vacation time, health insurance, and pensions, and enabled the emergence of the middle class. Now people are intimidated into not joining unions for fear of losing jobs, the work week is gaining hours, pensions are increasingly nonexistent, and we know the state of health insurance.

When we were young we were able to own a modest 2 bedroom 1 bath home and start a family on one income. Now most people have trouble finding affordable rentals on two incomes, sometimes 3 with a second job for one spouse.

The infrequent times my DH comes to the grocery with me he has sticker shock over the price of food. I take advantage of every offer for items I would normally use; last week it was buy 1 Skippy PB for $1.77, 1 Welch grape jam for $1.77 and get a $2 loaf of bread free. I also had a coupon for the pb, so I bought 2 and got another $1 off. At least I was able to get pb and bread without high fructose corn syrup as an ingredient. When you try to eat more nutritious food shopping becomes even more of a challenge.

We are all blessed we have discretionary income to buy our yarn and needles. This week AC Moore had some nice baby yarn on sale so I added to my stash to make hats for my charity projects. Watch every penny.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> PS: No my acronym is accurate. Almost like saying if you are against abortion you are for rape.


And you complain about being considered a RWN? Double standard, sweetie. Don't use them if you don't want them used against you. Or should it be AORWN? Or RORWN?


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> This is the scariest thing about ISIS: not just that they're dangerous Islamic terrorists but that they seem very attractive to young men in all of our countries, who can come and go as they please.


Is it possible these young men find an attraction because they don't have jobs or meaningful lives? The jobs that once recruited young men have been "outsourced" to increase profits for multinational corporations. Many of the jobs that are here pay so poorly young men do not see a future where they can afford wives, families, homes, and a few of the amenities our generation has grown up taking for granted. Hopelessness leads to radical action for some people. They do not see the long view and wonder where their radical action will lead them. Probably to an early grave.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

mojave said:


> Thank you for the lovely complements, Purl. Will try to contribute occasionally as time permits this semester. KPG did not seem too impressed. Oh well....


Well, basically she is impressed with herself.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> What will you bet that your message goes completely unread?


They tend to ignore anything that makes sense. They are a one horse cavalry.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> But wait! She supplies links: the army, navy, etc. websites. Which are probably updated monthly if at all and are necessarily behind news reports.
> 
> But I don't get the reference to Patty Hearst. I know who she is, but where is her part in this?


She was brainwashed by radicals and participated in criminal acts.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Is it possible these young men find an attraction because they don't have jobs or meaningful lives? The jobs that once recruited young men have been "outsourced" to increase profits for multinational corporations. Many of the jobs that are here pay so poorly young men do not see a future where they can afford wives, families, homes, and a few of the amenities our generation has grown up taking for granted. Hopelessness leads to radical action for some people. They do not see the long view and wonder where their radical action will lead them. Probably to an early grave.


You hit the nail on the head, Marilyn. I've watched a few English-language ISIS recruitment videos, and they make no bones about that fact that recruits are very likely to end up dead. One even showed the corpse of a Candadian recruit who'd been killed in battle, and I don't believe the stiff was a dummy or a prop. If videos such as these are typical, ISIS is pulling in young men from the West who believe they have no future and, quite frankly, don't want to go on living. It's beyond sick.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Enough from you is appropriate. You 'think' you might have hurt Yarnie? Give me a break, you insult most everyone, repeatedly, from the Denim thread. It's your MO and then you carry on about how much you hate talking to us and don't stop running your mouth about us.
> 
> Here's some good advice for you. Keep your nose and mouth out of my life and business and concern yourself with your own.
> 
> ...


Then keep your yap shut and stop disparaging Designer. You are a bully who starts the fight then go whining indignantly when somebody fights back. To the principal's office with you! If I were the Red Queen I would have a different comment.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> Because of the above, I have stopped coloring my hair. As I asked my hair person, who am I kidding? I just have age-inappropriate cuts and that is good enough. All surgeries have their risks but I think Rivers was having some throat problems. But why did she opt to have it done in a dr's office at her age? We have a grand choice of hospitals in NYC.


Good for you for stopping coloring your hair. I tried it once and the dye came out with liquid waste. I was aghast at that stuff circulating through my body, so never again. I drank tons of water to flush my system.

And I have a couple of friends who colored their hair dark and developed non Hodgkins lymphoma, the ailment that afflicted Jackie Kennedy. There may not be any connection, or if there is all the companies that sell hair color will have it suppressed, but I am taking no chances.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Then keep your yap shut and stop disparaging Designer. You are a bully who starts the fight then go whining indignantly when somebody fights back. To the principal's office with you! If I were the Red Queen I would have a different comment.


Get a clue. I don't even respond to Designer UNLESS and UNTIL she has spewed so many insults at me as she often does. Her post I recently responded to was attacking me again for no reason, simply because it is what she does. When I've read enough, I have every right to defend myself against her unsolicited attacks. In fact, everyone does. Thankfully, most of the time, I ignore her posts as I do yours, so I don't have to put up with your nonsense either.

I'm not a bully, but I can name quite a few Libs on KP who are.

It is about time you, too, stop poking your nose and mouth into conversations of no business or concern of yours especially since you cannot follow the chronological order of posts, freely give out your own insults for no reason and are not the thread monitor, Admin and offer nothing relevant.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Wise up, KPG. Designer is one of the nicest ladies here and I don't think you'll receive widespread support from your cronies for your hateful attacks on her.


Wrong again

she is only nice to AOLW


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Wrong again
> 
> she is only nice to AOLW


Thanks for your support LTL, they all need a course in how to speak to others. I don't even think she is nice to her alleged buds either for that matter from the few posts I've read.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> And you complain about being considered a RWN? Double standard, sweetie. Don't use them if you don't want them used against you. Or should it be AORWN? Or RORWN?


Hilarious, you can't even be a creative idea thief. Besides that we get called repugs all the time, but copying my idea is such a complement


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Hilarious, you can't even be a creative idea thief. Besides that we get called repugs all the time, but copying my idea is such a complement


LTL: did you notice how Susan and SQM had to change the discussion as soon as they were proven to be wrong on who can join the military? Happens all the time (them being wrong and changing the subject).


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Thanks for your support LTL, they all need a course in how to speak to others. I don't even think she is nice to her alleged buds either for that matter.


Remember they "circle the wagons", which is hard to imagine since cowboys use guns and long rifles and they hate the NRA and the Second Amendment. So they are like hyenas and group attack because they can't stand on their own ideas (notice I did not say facts)


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Remember they "circle the wagons", which is hard to imagine since cowboys use guns and long rifles and they hate the NRA and the Second Amendment. So they are like hyenas and group attack because they can't stand on their own ideas (notice I did not say facts)


Got it! :thumbup: I'm through with trying to converse with _________ (fill in the blank).


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Get a clue. I don't even respond to Designer UNLESS and UNTIL she has spewed so many insults at me as she often does. Her post I recently responded to was attacking me again for no reason, simply because it is what she does. When I've read enough, I have every right to defend myself against her unsolicited attacks. In fact, everyone does. Thankfully, most of the time, I ignore her posts as I do yours, so I don't have to put up with your nonsense either.
> 
> I'm not a bully, but I can name quite a few Libs on KP who are.
> 
> It is about time you, too, stop poking your nose and mouth into conversations of no business or concern of yours especially since you cannot follow the chronological order of posts, freely give out your own insults for no reason and are not the thread monitor, Admin and offer nothing relevant.


Looks like that basket keeps popping open...maybe LTL would like to come over and sit on it.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Looks like that basket keeps popping open...maybe LTL would like to come over and sit on it.


After you darlin'

Another example of an AOLW and how she wants to kill Conservatives. She wants us to die


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Wise up, KPG. Designer is one of the nicest ladies here and I don't think you'll receive widespread support from your cronies for your hateful attacks on her.


Thanks Susan -- I like Yarnie- always have and always will. 
Let KPG) spout as much as she wishes. Yarnie doesn't have to reciprocate but she is a very decent lady and has had a bad year. I think she will be able to decide way down deep if I mean it or not. If not, that is her choice. I understand where she stands and she has that right too. She is loyal to her friends and she is kind.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> After you darlin'
> 
> Another example of an AOLW and how she wants to kill Conservatives. She wants us to die


Not at all...as a master flute player I'm sure you can charm the beast.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Got it! :thumbup: I'm through with trying to converse with _________ (fill in the blank).


Bet you aren't -- you can't stop yourself.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Thanks Susan -- I like Yarnie- always have and always will.
> Let KPG) spout as much as she wishes. Yarnie doesn't have to reciprocate but she is a very decent lady and has had a bad year. I think she will be able to decide way down deep if I mean it or not. If not, that is her choice. I understand where she stands and she has that right too. She is loyal to her friends and she is kind.


I'm glad, Designer. It's nice that some friendships exist between the left and the right.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> After you darlin'
> 
> Another example of an AOLW and how she wants to kill Conservatives. She wants us to die


Aren't you getting a bit carried away sweetie??? Hmmmm


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm glad, Designer. It's nice that some friendships exist between the left and the right.


I doubt that it is reciprocated - however I do like her .

I also admire Joey - she is true to her beliefs. She rarely attacks and puts her money where her mouth is. 
I believe strongly in what I stand for, both of them do too.

Yarnie is a good friend to those she cares for. She doesn't attack, she covers people's backs, she doesn't deliberately hurt people but defends her friends.

I doubt that either will jump with joy because I think they are true to themselves. But I admire those who are true to what they believe and stand up and be counted. Even if I think they are wrong. There are others too.

I will likely be attacked for this post but I do know that it won't be by those on the left. We don't have to follow a hard line. Each of us are individuals and we are welcome to say what we think. We are not evil, and we do not even think about cutting someone out of our lives because of who they vote for or because they disagree.

Well ladies, enough for me. Lots to do. I will be on line tomorrow and then gone for awhile.

How is your brother doing Susan? I hope he is not in too much pain. He sure is a fighter. My heart aches for him and his family. It is so nice to have you back with us.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I doubt that it is reciprocated - however I do like her .
> 
> I also admire Joey - she is true to her beliefs. She rarely attacks and puts her money where her mouth is.
> I believe strongly in what I stand for, both of them do too.
> ...


Thanks for asking, Designer. He seems stable for now and his pain is being well managed, so we're grateful. And I agree that he's a real fighter--EC is horrible disease, as you know yourself.

Did you make that quilt yourself? It's beautiful. My grandmother quilted too, but I myself don't think I have the patience.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Get a clue. I don't even respond to Designer UNLESS and UNTIL she has spewed so many insults at me as she often does. Her post I recently responded to was attacking me again for no reason, simply because it is what she does. When I've read enough, I have every right to defend myself against her unsolicited attacks. In fact, everyone does. Thankfully, most of the time, I ignore her posts as I do yours, so I don't have to put up with your nonsense either.
> 
> I'm not a bully, but I can name quite a few Libs on KP who are.
> 
> It is about time you, too, stop poking your nose and mouth into conversations of no business or concern of yours especially since you cannot follow the chronological order of posts, freely give out your own insults for no reason and are not the thread monitor, Admin and offer nothing relevant.


Don't tell me where I may and may not post. You are not the thread monitor either. If you are so annoyed with my comments, ignore me and go on spewing your venom. It is really only an insult to you if it hits a sore spot. So, bless your little heart, have fun with your spiteful garbage. But choosing someone as universally liked and respected as Designer as an enemy shows thinking people exactly what you are.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Enough from you is appropriate. You 'think' you might have hurt Yarnie? Give me a break, you insult most everyone, repeatedly, from the Denim thread. It's your MO and then you carry on about how much you hate talking to us and don't stop running your mouth about us.
> 
> Here's some good advice for you. Keep your nose and mouth out of my life and business and concern yourself with your own.
> 
> ...


love and respect like you do??? just a question.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Wrong again
> 
> she is only nice to AOLW


What did you do when I offered to help you with something privately - which was a big mistake. enough said.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Wrong again
> 
> she is only nice to AOLW


Not quite. She is nice to nice people. When she offers niceness to people who are basically unkind, she finds that no good deed goes unpunished.

She reprimands people who have earned reprimands by their unpleasantness. As one is known by the company one keeps, I am on Designer's team all the way. Here's to the Good Old Girls!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Thanks for asking, Designer. He seems stable for now and his pain is being well managed, so we're grateful. And I agree that he's a real fighter--EC is horrible disease, as you know yourself.
> 
> Did you make that quilt yourself? It's beautiful. My grandmother quilted too, but I myself don't think I have the patience.


yes, I just thought a bit of brightness might please one or two of you all. I was in a Maple leaf swap (Canadian emblem). Some of the results were outstanding. Some times a change of scenery helps when unpleasantness seems to be happening.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Cindy, I recognize you don't usually offer anything of your own to say, but when you quote another, at least learn how to do it correctly. Don't eliminate words or take sentences out of context. May I suggest the same advice I told another who repeatedly insults me, could easily apply to you as well.
> 
> I *said*, _"So go peddle your hatred elsewhere and leave us alone or better yet stop it and treat others with love and respect. You have no idea what friendship is or could be or how to treat others."_


Oh yay, some more of your hatred......had I quoted your whole remark it would have been an additional waste of space that your original remark was. Keep it coming toots, you make yourself look petty


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Think again, we see her for what she really is.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Oh yay, some more of your hatred......had I quoted your whole remark it would have been an additional waste of space that your original remark was. Keep it coming toots, you make yourself look petty


I like Toots better than sweetie. It makes our posts more interesting, darllin, sweetie, toots, we are full of kind words tonight.

nice to see you Cindy -- it is a breath of fresh air when another person joins us. I have been meaning to tell you I enjoy your posts.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I like Toots better than sweetie. It makes our posts more interesting, darllin, sweetie, toots, we are full of kind words tonight.
> 
> nice to see you Cindy -- it is a breath of fresh air when another person joins us. I have been meaning to tell you I enjoy your posts.


I am betting the emails are flying to KPG so she can get on here and entertain us with more of her antics.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Why waste energy striking when all they have to do is wait for an implosion. News article this week about Burger King moving to Canada and noting that BK has a major office in Brazil. The article went on to say that many major corporations have international ownership and feel no loyalty to any nation, just to their stockholders. They will move headquarters to wherever they can maximize profits. The entanglements within each corporation are such nobody can really figure out where they are truly located. And all the countries that have had these corporations do business and then move taxable portions to other countries with lower taxes end up having to cover their costs by increasing taxes on us citizens who don't have the option to relocate. We are moving backward to a feudal culture.
> 
> In another article it was written that union membership is in a steady decline. When the union movement began it served to help people progress toward shorter work days (40 hours), benefits such as vacation time, health insurance, and pensions, and enabled the emergence of the middle class. Now people are intimidated into not joining unions for fear of losing jobs, the work week is gaining hours, pensions are increasingly nonexistent, and we know the state of health insurance.
> 
> ...


The question we should be asking is WHY are corporations allowed to move to other countries to avoid taxes? You can't blame corporations for taking advantage of our tax laws. What you can blame them for is paying off our representatives in exchange for passing these laws or for leaving them on the books. We should be demanding our representatives fix this! But the truth is that our representatives don't represent US! They represent those with the money and the power.

IMO (based upon what I've read), people aren't joining the unions because they're not getting more than they could in a non union job. Why pay dues? The union leaders only care about lining their own pockets.

The reason the price of our food is going up, isn't because food costs more. It's because the federal reserve (privately owned, not federal) is inflating the dollar. You've heard of QE (quantitative easing). They're printing money like crazy and giving it to themselves. They're buying the bad mortgages they made and they're buying stocks to keep the stock market high, with OUR money. Every dollar they print, makes your dollars worth less! It's like stealing the money right out of your wallet (or bank account). While they inflate the dollar, they lower the interest rates paid for savings. You are actually losing money by saving it.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Is it possible these young men find an attraction because they don't have jobs or meaningful lives?  The jobs that once recruited young men have been "outsourced" to increase profits for multinational corporations. Many of the jobs that are here pay so poorly young men do not see a future where they can afford wives, families, homes, and a few of the amenities our generation has grown up taking for granted. Hopelessness leads to radical action for some people. They do not see the long view and wonder where their radical action will lead them. Probably to an early grave.


Good point! It's something to consider, however their efforts would be better spent trying to change things, rather than killing innocent people. These people they're killing have nothing to do with the injustices they experience.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Why waste energy striking when all they have to do is wait for an implosion. News article this week about Burger King moving to Canada and noting that BK has a major office in Brazil. The article went on to say that many major corporations have international ownership and feel no loyalty to any nation, just to their stockholders. They will move headquarters to wherever they can maximize profits. The entanglements within each corporation are such nobody can really figure out where they are truly located. And all the countries that have had these corporations do business and then move taxable portions to other countries with lower taxes end up having to cover their costs by increasing taxes on us citizens who don't have the option to relocate. We are moving backward to a feudal culture.
> 
> In another article it was written that union membership is in a steady decline. When the union movement began it served to help people progress toward shorter work days (40 hours), benefits such as vacation time, health insurance, and pensions, and enabled the emergence of the middle class. Now people are intimidated into not joining unions for fear of losing jobs, the work week is gaining hours, pensions are increasingly nonexistent, and we know the state of health insurance.
> 
> ...


Yes, burger king just bought our wonderful Tim Hortons. I personally liked it when it was a Canadian Company.

We lost the Hudson's Bay to the US, and a lot of other major businesses. they gobble us up. Most Canadians my opinion only, have very mixed feelings about the takeovers Personally I like to buy Canadian products but often they are owned by an American conglomerate and it is not widely 
publicized.

One that hasn't worked out here is Target. They have fallen flat on their face. They moved up here, and expected to make huge profits. However they made the mistake which they don't in the States and that is to charge much more than target US does for the same products. Canadians are staying away in droves - me included.

I try to shop Canadian but am not always sure what companies are really American now. Not a happy camper in that regard. Many Canadians feel as I do. I really am upset about Tim Hortons being taken over by Burger King. Tims is so Canadian, named after a Canadian Hockey Player, is extremely popular here. Gives good value for the money but that will likely change. I have often bought at Burger king and realized it was American but won't buy there any more.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Good point! It's something to consider, however their efforts would be better spent trying to change things, rather than killing innocent people. These people they're killing have nothing to do with the injustices they experience.


Absolutely. And it appears they are too inexperienced in life to see how they are being used and exploited by people who are worse oppressors than any they faced back home in the US or Great Britain or whatever other free country they came from. Their value to these monsters is to embarrass their countries of origin.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Get a clue. I don't even respond to Designer UNLESS and UNTIL she has spewed so many insults at me as she often does. Her post I recently responded to was attacking me again for no reason, simply because it is what she does. When I've read enough, I have every right to defend myself against her unsolicited attacks. In fact, everyone does. Thankfully, most of the time, I ignore her posts as I do yours, so I don't have to put up with your nonsense either.
> 
> I'm not a bully, but I can name quite a few Libs on KP who are.
> 
> It is about time you, too, stop poking your nose and mouth into conversations of no business or concern of yours especially since you cannot follow the chronological order of posts, freely give out your own insults for no reason and are not the thread monitor, Admin and offer nothing relevant.


Just go away! People left WOW to avoid you and yours. Now you just come here, looking for a fight. Just go back to D&P. If you you and yours weren't here looking for a fight, nobody would be attacking you! We could just pretend you don't exist!


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Our trying to change things to suit ourselves and thereby destabilizing the region led directly to ISIS. We should stay out of it. Let them solve their own problems and only get involved if/when they extend them to the rest of the world. At some point we have to learn to butt out.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Wrong again
> 
> she is only nice to AOLW


Not true!!!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Got it! :thumbup: I'm through with trying to converse with _________ (fill in the blank).


Nobody believes this!!!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> After you darlin'
> 
> Another example of an AOLW and how she wants to kill Conservatives. She wants us to die


No, she just wants to keep the snake in her basket!


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Yes, burger king just bought our wonderful Tim Hortons. I personally liked it when it was a Canadian Company. We lost the Hudson's Bay to the US, and a lot of other major businesses. they gobble us up. Most Canadians my opinion only, have very mixed feelings about the takeovers.


I had read a couple of news articles that this internationalization of businesses creates a tangled web that becomes impenetrable as far as any country collecting appropriate business taxes. It is another factor in widening the gap between "haves" and "have nots". The middle class is being pushed into poverty because they are the only ones stuck paying taxes who 1) can't finagle a way out of it and 2) still have some money for the time being.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm glad, Designer. It's nice that some friendships exist between the left and the right.


Hey! Don't forget me! Ahahahahahaha!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I doubt that it is reciprocated - however I do like her .
> 
> I also admire Joey - she is true to her beliefs. She rarely attacks and puts her money where her mouth is.
> I believe strongly in what I stand for, both of them do too.
> ...


Beautiful quilting, Shirley! Thanks for sharing!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Absolutely. And it appears they are too inexperienced in life to see how they are being used and exploited by people who are worse oppressors than any they faced back home in the US or Great Britain or whatever other free country they came from. Their value to these monsters is to embarrass their countries of origin.


Some of those who have joined the terrorist groups are 
Canadians. It has been discovered that one of the apartment buildings here in Calgary have been home to about 6 terrorists, all young Muslim Canadians who decided to join - three have already been killed - this is recent news. It seems that there is a group here who try to attract young men to join. Most of our muslim leaders have attacked them and stood up against them. New information is being found every day and it is recent news.

We are finding more and more of the problems felt in the States are slowly happening here - people shooting people which used to be very rare, young men joining terrorist groups, University shootings. Sad indeed. Thank heavens we 
or at least the majority are NOT in love with guns and the gun culture. Sorry if I am stepping on toes here but the majority are not gun lovers - thank heavens. It worries me that it is slowly becoming more and more like the US - the division between people - although it is not obvious yet.

I have voted Conservative my whole life but this time I won't. I don't care for our LIberal Government, especially Federal, but I have no use for the Conservative government both Federally and Provincially. it is a conundrum. The words don't mean that much - we vote for our members but lately there have been so many bad things happen with both Governments, people are getting sick of it.

Just a bit about Canadian Politics and just my opinion. I think that WCK and I might be more on the same page here than our opinions about American Politics, Maybe not. Who knows as so little actual discussion about our differences really is publicized up here. Interesting the differences and scary the things that are creeping up here through the internet, the news and the Political situation in the States which affects us in just about every way.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Absolutely. And it appears they are too inexperienced in life to see how they are being used and exploited by people who are worse oppressors than any they faced back home in the US or Great Britain or whatever other free country they came from. Their value to these monsters is to embarrass their countries of origin.


IMO, Truer words were never spoken!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, Truer words were never spoken!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Yes, burger king just bought our wonderful Tim Hortons. I personally liked it when it was a Canadian Company.
> 
> We lost the Hudson's Bay to the US, and a lot of other major businesses. they gobble us up. Most Canadians my opinion only, have very mixed feelings about the takeovers Personally I like to buy Canadian products but often they are owned by an American conglomerate and it is not widely
> publicized.
> ...


Actually it seems that Tim Horton's is a bigger business than BK so it is being portrayed that TH is taking over BK. But I don't believe it. There is a lot of protest here against BK not being a US company anymore.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> Our trying to change things to suit ourselves and thereby destabilizing the region led directly to ISIS. We should stay out of it. Let them solve their own problems and only get involved if/when they extend them to the rest of the world. At some point we have to learn to butt out.


I partly agree with you. We should have stayed out of it. We cause much unrest by taking out countries leaders and installing ones who are friendly to us. We should never have gotten involved. But now? Now they pose a threat to us. I'm not convinced that, that wasn't what our leaders wanted in the first place. War is money!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Thanks for your support LTL, they all need a course in how to speak to others. I don't even think she is nice to her alleged buds either for that matter from the few posts I've read.


yep -We are allowed to speak our minds if we are liberal. that is one of the meanings of the word Progressive or liberal. We are allowed to speak and sometimes disagree. We don't expect everyone to agree. There are different types of liberals, some are Christians like me, some are Jews, some are agnostic, we are allowed our own opinions. If someone acts in ways we don't like, we can speak without fear of reprisal or banishment. We are thinking human beings who 
have learned through life experiences that some things are important to us. Those are the facts.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Actually it seems that Tim Horton's is a bigger business than BK so it is being portrayed that TH is taking over BK. But I don't believe it. There is a lot of protest here against BK not being a US company anymore.


It sounds as if the head office of each company will be headquartered in Canada (Tim Hortons) and the US (burger king). It is interesting to me that Americans are upset that someone takes over one of their companies. Although I guess the China exported companies are the reason. I don't think you will find Canada to be in a position to take over many American companies. I find that most times it is the other way around. Actually, that is rather amusing that People are upset that we are taking over Burger King. Maybe it is true which would certainly be unusual. Tims is one of our most well known and lucrative companies. The stock has gone sky high since it was announced. Not sure whether most Canadians would be pleased about Tims having American owners though.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

oops double post -- sorry!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> It sounds as if the head office of each company will be headquartered in Canada (Tim Hortons) and the US (burger king). It is interesting to me that Americans are upset that someone takes over one of their companies. Although I guess the China exported companies are the reason. I don't think you will find Canada to be in a position to take over many American companies. I find that most times it is the other way around. Actually, that is rather amusing that People are upset that we are taking over Burger King. Maybe it is true which would certainly be unusual. Tims is one of our most well known and lucrative companies. The stock has gone sky high since it was announced. Not sure whether most Canadians would be pleased about Tims having American owners though.


Maybe it is BK having Canadian owners.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Maybe it is BK having Canadian owners.


could be I guess but that is not what I have heard on our news. I just heard the first about it late last week. We were told on the Canadian news that Burger king 'bought' Tim Hortons. It did say that Tim's stock went way up.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> I am betting the emails are flying to KPG so she can get on here and entertain us with more of her antics.


Yes, she seems to have some at least in the palm of her hand. To each his own. that is what I like about us - we think for ourselves.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> could be I guess but that is not what I have heard on our news. I just heard the first about it late last week. We were told on the Canadian news that Burger king 'bought' Tim Hortons. It did say that Tim's stock went way up.


What exactly is Tim Horton's? Is it like Dunkin' Donuts?


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> It sounds as if the head office of each company will be headquartered in Canada (Tim Hortons) and the US (burger king). It is interesting to me that Americans are upset that someone takes over one of their companies. Although I guess the China exported companies are the reason. I don't think you will find Canada to be in a position to take over many American companies. I find that most times it is the other way around. Actually, that is rather amusing that People are upset that we are taking over Burger King. Maybe it is true which would certainly be unusual. Tims is one of our most well known and lucrative companies. The stock has gone sky high since it was announced. Not sure whether most Canadians would be pleased about Tims having American owners though.


BK announced last week that their corporate headquarters would remain in Miami, Florida however read the attached, there may be a smoke screen here

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/aug/29/burger-king/burger-king-says-its-not-moving-and-will-continue-/


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Cindy, I recognize you don't usually offer anything of your own to say, but when you quote another, at least learn how to do it correctly. Don't eliminate words or take sentences out of context. May I suggest the same advice I told another who repeatedly insults me, could easily apply to you as well.
> 
> I *said*, _"So go peddle your hatred elsewhere and leave us alone or better yet stop it and treat others with love and respect. You have no idea what friendship is or could be or how to treat others."_


do you do that with your hatred????? NO! Only one other person who is on these threads right now holds a candle to you. You are the Bobsey twins of nastiness.

Well ladies, It is getting late and I am tired. I am going to go and read something light and fluffy! (actually, it isn't light and fluffy ) it is King and Maxwell by David Baldacci -- good book. We are going to take it easy tomorrow. We are packed except for last minute additions, and we are going to visit our kids and check out our new home town. I am looking forward to getting away. We will be around tomorrow and I mighjt drop by. or not.

TTYL - designer


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

I will say this you all think you know KPG and you seem to think all she does is attack.

Well I see it as you attacking her. She puts out the truth of what was said about military and who can not serve in the military. She stated the facts. Then you down grade her with out even checking to see if she was right. Then you expect her not to say anything in defense of herself. When someone is attack what do we do back. 

You do not really know KPG nor have any of you tried to get to know her. You attack and why do you expect her not to defend herself. 

She and the women I have met on KP I enjoy and have gotten to know them like you all never will. So many of us on Denim have a long history on here and have know each other for many years. I enjoy them and have learned much from them.

Joey and I have become great friends and have met each other and spent time together .

LTL and I have shared many a laugh, and friendship.

Oh my Jayne we have shared so much together through the years on here. 

KPG has a heart of gold and is a very giving person. 

Country B has a faith that none can shake,and is the first to reach out to others in need. 

There is WCK a voice of reason and a kind heart.

Gerslay so sweet nature

Bon who is so full of kindness .

Soloway who stands up for what is right.

Thumper who is wisdom when I need it.

and their are new ones I am getting to know

All I have learned from LIb's is do not trust, or expect anything but angry.

You have never even gave KPG a chance or tried to get to know her. Then when you attack her even when she is not even on KP you still attack her. Yet you want to blame her for everything. 

You bet I will stand by her and all of them. 

Why because the Word trust, kindness, faith , true friendship, When down they pick me up. They are not afraid to show they care. With cards gifts and love. They have brought me through a difficult time in my life. To do that for someone you have never met is a gift to me from God.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Very nice testimonial to your friends, MIss Yarnie.

Joan Rivers seems to be improving a tad but I am not sure how accurate that is.

What should we be doing about IS? 

(We need to get back to the purpose of this thread.)


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> I will say this you all think you know KPG and you seem to think all she does is attack.
> 
> Well I see it as you attacking her. She puts out the truth of what was said about military and who can not serve in the military. She stated the facts. Then you down grade her with out even checking to see if she was right. Then you expect her not to say anything in defense of herself. When someone is attack what do we do back.
> 
> ...


I love you Yarnie.♥


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> I will say this you all think you know KPG and you seem to think all she does is attack.
> 
> Well I see it as you attacking her. She puts out the truth of what was said about military and who can not serve in the military. She stated the facts. Then you down grade her with out even checking to see if she was right. Then you expect her not to say anything in defense of herself. When someone is attack what do we do back.
> 
> ...


So well said, Yarnie. I'm proud to know you!


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## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> I will say this you all think you know KPG and you seem to think all she does is attack.
> 
> Well I see it as you attacking her. She puts out the truth of what was said about military and who can not serve in the military. She stated the facts. Then you down grade her with out even checking to see if she was right. Then you expect her not to say anything in defense of herself. When someone is attack what do we do back.
> 
> ...


You're the best Yarnie! You need to update your signature lines under your posts - you understand very well and you said it perfectly!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> I will say this you all think you know KPG and you seem to think all she does is attack.
> 
> Well I see it as you attacking her. She puts out the truth of what was said about military and who can not serve in the military. She stated the facts. Then you down grade her with out even checking to see if she was right. Then you expect her not to say anything in defense of herself. When someone is attack what do we do back.
> 
> ...


you are a good friend yarnie! I applaud you.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

SQM said:


> Actually it seems that Tim Horton's is a bigger business than BK so it is being portrayed that TH is taking over BK. But I don't believe it. There is a lot of protest here against BK not being a US company anymore.


It has always been reported that Tim Horton's is a bigger company, that is not new news. With Warren Buffet's financial support Burger King can buy TH's, move it's office to Canada, and pay lower taxes. Smart financial plan especially from a hypocrite like Buffet that promotes higher taxes for himself, yet takes an American company abroad to save on taxes


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Israel is under attack in a war of the minds. Former president, Jimmy Carter is a supporter of Palestine and hamas. He recently spoke at a meeting of ISNA (Islamic Society of North America). ISNA has been caught funneling money to hamas. Here are two interesting articles on the subject.
http://www.wnd.com/2014/08/jimmy-carter-refuses-to-cancel-speech-for-hamas-front/
http://personalliberty.com/jimmy-carter-raises-money-terrorists/


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> I will say this you all think you know KPG and you seem to think all she does is attack.
> 
> Well I see it as you attacking her. She puts out the truth of what was said about military and who can not serve in the military. She stated the facts. Then you down grade her with out even checking to see if she was right. Then you expect her not to say anything in defense of herself. When someone is attack what do we do back.
> 
> ...


All this is very nice. Have you heard of "love your enemies?" KPG has NEVER been nice to someone who disagrees with her, and she has not always been on the defense. She came to this forum with both fists swinging, and she hasn't stopped.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> Define vacation. I don't think a vacation is a return to home. If obamacultist want to define it as number of days away from the WH, then I think there should be an accounting of what was done on each vacation day and what did that vacation day cost the American taxpayer. Regardless, Obama should have had respect for the beheaded journalist and not fly off after the bachelor party that Monday night before the American people knew about the beheading. He is having a grand time with the 1%'ers on the golf course and attending fund raisers while Americans were sickened with the news and views of the beheading. He has no class or respect for anyone because I believe he is a sociopathic narcissist that only thinks about himself. And when he does not get his way he whines, pouts and blames other people for his woes. He should not be wearing a "Summer suit" he should be wearing knickers because he doesn't know how to wear big boy pants.
> 
> The US churches do not have a choice whether or not to follow a Church Doctrine. To do so is a violation of Church Law, and priests have been removed from the priesthood because of those violations. Meaning they are no longer priests and not in good standing with the Church (meaning they are one step away from excommunication) But as a non-Catholic your opinion or so called facts are irrelevant and false. Just ask Nancy Pelosi who is no longer allowed to receive the sacraments because of her views on abortions, obamacare and not defending the Church's violation of religious freedom.


Well, first of all, I am a Catholic. The idiosyncrasies of the Catholic Church in the US have been discussed for a long time in a variety of venues. For example, there are US Catholics who use birth control. I imagine they don't confess this, and priests don't oppose what they're doing. Yes, this means there are priests and lay persons who could be excommunicated this very second. What would the effect of that be? It means the Catholic Church in the US would lose even more members and priests than it already has. Is every pew in your parish church full? None of the four churches I live near are.

I think the US Catholic Church is acting expediently to avoid further erosion of the Church in the US and the authorities in the Church are turning a blind eye on the Church in the US unless there is a situation that gets a great deal of attention hat forces them to act. Consider how long child sexual abuse by priests has been overlooked. This is a world wide problem, and dealing with it means losing priests and individual Catholics. This problem is finally being addressed to the extent it needs to be by the Church because there has been so much attention paid to it and we have a Pope who is an activist while being charismatic enough to keep the Church from losing members. IMHO.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Wrong again, Sloth. You know full well we were discussing those who come to America from other countries and are in the US illegally. They are * illegal * immigrants within the USA. The military doesn't accept criminals.


What about the criminals who are given the option of going to jail or joining one of our military services?


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> What did you do when I offered to help you with something privately - which was a big mistake. enough said.


Answering me again.

You did not offer me help, you tried to change my mind. So the big mistake was your false idea that helping someone is changing someone and when that does not work the person is hateful.

Enough said???? or do you want to continue?


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Looks like that basket keeps popping open...maybe LTL would like to come over and sit on it.


No apology for the death threat?


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> What about the criminals who are given the option of going to jail or joining one of our military services?


The gang members join the Army or Marines, receive combat training and after discharge they take the knowledge back to the gang. Police in Detroit, Los Angeles and Chicago have faced gangs conducting operations in a military-style.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> No apology for the death threat?


Seriously?!? There was no death threat! You have a very vivid imagination! :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

mojave said:


> The gang members join the Army or Marines, receive combat training and after discharge they take the knowledge back to the gang. Police in Detroit, Los Angeles and Chicago have faced gangs conducting operations in a military-style.


No wonder police officers are as heavily outfitted as military members. Prisons are all too often places where criminals get further education about becoming better at committing various crimes instead of education that could make them legitament members of society.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

ISIS operating out of Mexico? Planning attacks in the US?
http://www.judicialwatch.org/bulletins/imminent-terrorist-attack-warning-feds-us-border/


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Perhaps you felt, instead of attending a party, Bush could have huffed and puffed and blew Katrina away from NO. Bush didn't land because he knew the people needed their first responders and he didn't want them to divert their attention away from that. It is amazing how memories fade.


But you think Obama is capable of repairing the entire world and would rather go to parties or play golf. Once again you speak nonsense. Bush should have been paying attention to those suffering people, not to Strom Thurmond. But it was in good hands: Heckuva Job Brownie's


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Is it possible these young men find an attraction because they don't have jobs or meaningful lives? The jobs that once recruited young men have been "outsourced" to increase profits for multinational corporations. Many of the jobs that are here pay so poorly young men do not see a future where they can afford wives, families, homes, and a few of the amenities our generation has grown up taking for granted. Hopelessness leads to radical action for some people. They do not see the long view and wonder where their radical action will lead them. Probably to an early grave.


Of course it's possible. In fact, it's highly probable. And since they're forever being told they'll never get a decent job without a college degree, and many are not college material (though they can be very useful elsewhere), ISIS must look really good.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> She was brainwashed by radicals and participated in criminal acts.


I know what happened to Patty Hearst, but Wombat's message made her sound more like a leader than a captive follower.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

lovethelake said:


> No apology for the death threat?


Death threat? Did the opportunity present itself to go totally ballistic and become drama queens for days on end? How did we ever let that pass?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> No apology for the death threat?


How was it a death threat? Suggesting that a serpent go back into its basket is just a suggestion. Unless you think that by sitting on the basket, you'd crush both basket and serpent.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Good for you for stopping coloring your hair. I tried it once and the dye came out with liquid waste. I was aghast at that stuff circulating through my body, so never again. I drank tons of water to flush my system.
> 
> And I have a couple of friends who colored their hair dark and developed non Hodgkins lymphoma, the ailment that afflicted Jackie Kennedy. There may not be any connection, or if there is all the companies that sell hair color will have it suppressed, but I am taking no chances.


That's probably the safest way to go. More and more people are complaining of developing reactions, possibly allergic, to hair dyes. Many of these women have been dying their hair for years and years. What starts out as a mild rash develops, with the next few dye jobs, into severe allergic reactions requiring hospitalization. Even the hair dye and beard dye for men is not immune. I quit using hair dye a few years ago because it started to burn my scalp.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

mojave said:


> The gang members join the Army or Marines, receive combat training and after discharge they take the knowledge back to the gang. Police in Detroit, Los Angeles and Chicago have faced gangs conducting operations in a military-style.


Mojave - your statement that gang members join the Army or Marines as an alternative to jail is your myth. Because you believe it and repeat it doesn't mean it is true.

A judge, probation officer, court, etc., may determine the course of action is to send a convicted criminal to military service as an alternative to jail, but that doesnt mean the military branch will accept the criminal because they dont have to accept the individual.

As I said prior, if the applicant doesnt meet the requirements, and is a convicted criminal, ALL the company Commanders, must grant waivers in order for the criminal to be allowed to serve. The criminals do not simply enlist, and the applicant produces the reasoning for the requested waiver. (as always, exceptions Ive mentioned MAY apply).

I like the facts, dont you? I looked them up, you should have. BTW: they support what I have posted prior, and I'm not even a Professor as you claim to be. Imagine that! Here are the facts:

*From the Army:* (underlining emphasis added)

The Army addresses this issue in the Army Recruiting Regulation, Army Regulation 601-210, paragraph 4-12 b:
"Applicant who, as a condition for any civil conviction or adverse disposition or any other reason through a civil or criminal court, is ordered or subjected to a sentence that implies or imposes enlistment into the Armed Forces of the United States is not eligible for enlistment." unless -

1) The Condition is removed by the same or higher authority imposing the sentence.

2) The condition is removed by virtue of expired period of sentence.

3) The condition is over 12 months from imposition and the court, city, county, or State no longer obligates applicant to this condition.

*From the Army re criminal gang members:*

This from Army Recruiting Regulation 601-210, Section I, Waivable & NonWaivable Disqualifications

_ (2) A person who admits to or is determined to have been associated with or in a gang linked to criminal activity or an extremist group or organization will be questioned concerning their involvement. The whole person concept must be applied. Criminal background, commander interview, and potential for meeting Army standards must be reviewed. A member of any extremist organization will be denied enlistment.  A member of a gang associated with criminal activity will also be denied enlistment. Applicants denied entry will be reported to HQ USAREC (Policy). USAREC will publish a list of those denied so that other components/battalions do not enlist the individuals._

*and from the Marines:*

_3281. Criteria. Applicants with no criminal convictions, fines, or periods of restraint are morally eligible for enlistment. However, the voluntary disclosure, self admitted, or recruiter discovery, of any form of police/criminal involvement by an applicant may require waiver as a moral disqualification. In such cases, moral waivers will be processed per chapter 3, section 3, table 3-13, page 3-113._

The Marine Corps Recruiting Regulation, MCO P1100.72C, Chapter 3, Section 2, Part H, Paragraph 14 states:

_14. Enlistment as an Alternative to Prosecution. *Applicants may not enlist as an alternative* to criminal prosecution, indictment, incarceration, parole, probation, or other punitive sentence. *They are ineligible for enlistment until the original assigned sentence would have been completed.*_


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Seriously?!? There was no death threat! You have a very vivid imagination! :roll: :roll: :roll:


No. One of the AOLW asked how do you get to Hell. I answered that "you have to die". Oh my goodness the psycho lefties went insane screaming about how I issued a death threat. They reported me. I explained my answer but for over a week they pummeled me with false accusations and attacks. In fact Damemary brought it up again and said she still believes I made a death threat. I answered a question about Hell, I was told to sit on a cobra and die. Seems obvious to me. Or circling the wagons (against the Indians) was not a racist slur. Just another example of how AOLW can say whatever they want and have no consequences.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> How was it a death threat? Suggesting that a serpent go back into its basket is just a suggestion. Unless you think that by sitting on the basket, you'd crush both basket and serpent.


Good try, but won't fly. I was threatened, and it has not gone unnoticed. I would suggest you drop it


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

To KPG

Thank you for quoting the official manuals. They state the ideal situation, do not reflect reality.
1. Not all gang members are convicted criminals.
2. Tell the police officers in Detroit, Los Angeles and Chicago they are not facing military tactics. Many of these officers are former military and they have the expertise to recognize military tactics.
3. Gang graffiti was a problem in Iraq and remains a problem in Afghanistan.
4. Report on FBI investigation of gang activity in the military http://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-gang-assessment-us-military-2011-10
5. Article from Police One http://www.policemag.com/blog/gangs/story/2007/10/criminal-gangs-in-the-military.aspx
6. From Fox News http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/01/mexican-cartels-recruiting-hit-men-from-ranks-us-military/ 
Happy reading


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> yep -We are allowed to speak our minds if we are liberal. that is one of the meanings of the word Progressive or liberal. We are allowed to speak and sometimes disagree. We don't expect everyone to agree. There are different types of liberals, some are Christians like me, some are Jews, some are agnostic, we are allowed our own opinions. If someone acts in ways we don't like, we can speak without fear of reprisal or banishment. We are thinking human beings who
> have learned through life experiences that some things are important to us. Those are the facts.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

mojave said:


> To KPG
> 
> Thank you for quoting the official manuals. They state the ideal situation, do not reflect reality.
> 1. Not all gang members are convicted criminals.
> ...


To mojave

The entire discussion was about *criminals* not being able to enlist for military service (with few exceptions allowed).

The official manuals *are* the reality and your statements the lies.

1) I never said all gang members were convicted criminals and, once again, _only_ criminals were being discussed as to those people not allowed to enlist. MIB also mentioned only *criminals* and that was your answer to her; about gang members implying _criminal gang members_. If you noticed, I mentioned ONLY criminal gang members because that is ALL that was being discussed.

2) I've already told you to tell others what you wish as it is your story, not mine. Stop telling me what to tell others btw. I don't follow your orders, and seemingly you weren't a very good military member either since you didn't know the rules.

I have no desire to read anything you posted. Happy lying and poor attempt on your part, I must say, trying to hide the truth by changing the words and not admitting your errors. Is that how you teach as well?


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> It sounds as if the head office of each company will be headquartered in Canada (Tim Hortons) and the US (burger king). It is interesting to me that Americans are upset that someone takes over one of their companies. Although I guess the China exported companies are the reason. I don't think you will find Canada to be in a position to take over many American companies. I find that most times it is the other way around. Actually, that is rather amusing that People are upset that we are taking over Burger King. Maybe it is true which would certainly be unusual. Tims is one of our most well known and lucrative companies. The stock has gone sky high since it was announced. Not sure whether most Canadians would be pleased about Tims having American owners though.


It is possible if the times were prosperous and the tax base were not so eroded it would not have caused a flutter. It is an increasingly global economy, and the US is not the only country that will have to rethink its tax codes so companies doing business in the country will pay their equitable share of taxes. Middle class people in developed countries all over the planet appear to be squeezed while the heads of international corporations get richer and richer. These companies are certainly entitled to their profits, but it is short sighted of them not to realize that eventually their customer base will have vanished, being unable to afford the products.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> To mojave
> 
> The entire discussion was about criminals are not able to enlist for military service (with few exceptions allowed).
> 
> ...


"Happy reading" constitutes an order? The articles I posted verify my statements about gang members in the military and taking their knowledge back to the hood. If you wish to obfuscate the issue with cut and paste demonstrations - go for it.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

KPG has her coterie of loyal friends. I am sure she is a loyal friend to each of her supporters. Possibly as long as her circle of friends continues to agree with her and support her. What happens to anybody who gets out of line? Enmity and banishment? Not the sort of friend I would cultivate. With a friend like that who needs enemies?

However, to people with whom she disagrees she shows her Mr. Hyde side and is mean spirited, says nasty things, makes false accusations, appears to deliberately misinterpret what is said and comes across as a viper spewing venom. She is evidently not a devotee of Dale Carnegie.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

mojave said:


> "Happy reading" constitutes an order? The articles I posted verify my statements about gang members in the military and taking their knowledge back to the hood. If you wish to obfuscate the issue with cut and paste demonstrations - go for it.


You told MIB that (criminal) gang members join the military as an alternative to jail sentences when MIB asked that very question. Gang members don't have jail sentences if not convicted criminals.

You now are trying to muddle your comments to hide your lies and mistakes.

Go for it.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I know what happened to Patty Hearst, but Wombat's message made her sound more like a leader than a captive follower.


As I remember there was a great deal of discussion in the news about Stockholm syndrome at the time.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> KPG has her coterie of loyal friends. I am sure she is a loyal friend to each of her supporters. Possibly as long as her circle of friends continues to agree with her and support her. What happens to anybody who gets out of line? Enmity and banishment? Not the sort of friend I would cultivate. With a friend like that who needs enemies?
> 
> However, to people with whom she disagrees she shows her Mr. Hyde side and is mean spirited, says nasty things, makes false accusations, appears to deliberately misinterpret what is said and comes across as a viper spewing venom. She is evidently not a devotee of Dale Carnegie.


Yeah, but her hyperbole has entertainment value. We're sitting here trying to kill some time while waiting for samples to finish processing. My grads are goofing off trying to top one another making comments about her postings.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Good try, but won't fly. I was threatened, and it has not gone unnoticed. I would suggest you drop it


No, I hate to let the matter go, LTL, as it disturbed you so. We need to talk about it some more--in as much detail and for as long as it takes to really get to the bottom of this. What do you say?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

mojave said:


> Yeah, but her hyperbole has entertainment value. We're sitting here trying to kill some time while waiting for samples to finish processing. My grads are goofing off trying to top one another making comments about her postings.


Good teach them about the truth.

Oh, wait, you cannot, because you cannot speak it yourself.

Ask your students how many not convicted gang members receive jail sentences. That ought to take quite a few minutes of your time.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> No. One of the AOLW asked how do you get to Hell. I answered that "you have to die". Oh my goodness the psycho lefties went insane screaming about how I issued a death threat. They reported me. I explained my answer but for over a week they pummeled me with false accusations and attacks. In fact Damemary brought it up again and said she still believes I made a death threat. I answered a question about Hell, I was told to sit on a cobra and die. Seems obvious to me. Or circling the wagons (against the Indians) was not a racist slur. Just another example of how AOLW can say whatever they want and have no consequences.


First of all, YOU'RE the one bringing it up! No one else! Second of all, " circling the wagons" is NOT a racist slur! Its a commonly used expression which means to protect each other from attack. And third, there was no threat on your life. Pure nonsense! Susan told kpg to "Have the snake charmer close the lid on your basket.". Later, she said, " Looks like the basket keeps popping open...maybe LTL would like to come over and sit on it.". She was insinuating that kpg was a snake but never mentioned a cobra, you did. She was also hinting that kpg, go away but obviously she didn't. So she suggested that you sit on the lid. She never said DIE, YOU did! There was no threat! Its just another example of someone trying to twist the words of others. I understand that you think its acceptable behavior because they did it to you. Grow up! We're not in third grade!

Why can we never just have a discussion on issues without somebody trotting over from D&P, to start a fight? Everybody left WOW because every time we tried to discuss anything, somebody from D&P came to fight. Then they told us to leave because it was the abortion thread. Well, THIS isn't the abortion thread, but youre still LOOKING for a fight! Try to discuss things without being nasty. Express your opinion in a non accusatory manner and let people agree or disagree. Let go of the past and move forward!


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

mojave said:


> Yeah, but her hyperbole has entertainment value. We're sitting here trying to kill some time while waiting for samples to finish processing. My grads are goofing off trying to top one another making comments about her postings.


I'm sitting at home waiting for yeast bread to rise, so it is a time killer for me too this afternoon. Sometimes it fills in for commercials between innings when I watch baseball. Sounds like more fun having a bunch of people do a comedy club routine about it.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> I'm sitting at home waiting for yeast bread to rise, so it is a time killer for me too this afternoon. Sometimes it fills in for commercials between innings when I watch baseball. Sounds like more fun having a bunch of people do a comedy club routine about it.


I think it's hilarious. I've often suspected the political threads have a vast, invisible audience, and that the antics that go on here provide a huge amount of entertainment for these folks.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> First of all, YOU'RE the one bringing it up! No one else! Second of all, " circling the wagons" is NOT a racist slur! Its a commonly used expression which means to protect each other from attack. And third, there was no threat on your life. Pure nonsense! Susan told kpg to "Have the snake charmer close the lid on your basket.". Later, she said, " Looks like the basket keeps popping open...maybe LTL would like to come over and sit on it.". She was insinuating that kpg was a snake but never mentioned a cobra, you did. She was also hinting that kpg, go away but obviously she didn't. So she suggested that you sit on the lid. She never said DIE, YOU did! There was no threat! Its just another example of someone trying to twist the words of others. I understand that you think its acceptable behavior because they did it to you. Grow up! We're not in third grade!


Thanks, Nebraska. No, we're not in third grade, and as mature ladies we should be able to discuss these things. If LTL truly believes I wanted or expected her to topple into a real cobra basket or squash the serpent flat by sitting on her then she's truly mistaken. I never expected a posted image and a suggestion to raise such a ruckus, but then I often don't understand how the FF minds work. All I can hope is that she takes me up on my offer to sort it all out.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

mojave said:


> Yeah, but her hyperbole has entertainment value. We're sitting here trying to kill some time while waiting for samples to finish processing. My grads are goofing off trying to top one another making comments about her postings.


Ahahahaha! Don't forget, she has no desire to read what you write.  Oh, wait! She did!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> No, I hate to let the matter go, LTL, as it disturbed you so. We need to talk about it some more--in as much detail and for as long as it takes to really get to the bottom of this. What do you say?


Oh, puleeeze don't!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Thanks, Nebraska. No, we're not in third grade, and as mature ladies we should be able to discuss these things. If LTL truly believes I wanted or expected her to topple into a real cobra basket or squash the serpent flat by sitting on her then she's truly mistaken. I never expected a posted image and a suggestion to raise such a ruckus, but then I often don't understand how the FF minds work. All I can hope is that she takes me up on my offer to sort it all out.


They get tired of being nice all of the time. So they go looking for a fight. They nit pick on the details and never consider the broader discussion. They're not interested in learning anything or hearing new ideas, they just want to be release their ugly side.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Ahahahaha! Don't forget, she has no desire to read what you write. Oh, wait! She did!


Have a comprehension problem KFN? I never told mojave I don't read her posts. In fact, she is one of the few posters on the Lib side I read. I said I don't have any desire to read her recently suggested reading assignments (links). I suggest you stop interrupting and insulting everyone and making stuff up that isn't the truth, perhaps more would speak to you.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh, puleeeze don't!


I'm sorry, Nebraska, but I did feel obligated to offer to sort the matter out. Frankly, rehashing the incident--posted image, my suggestion, associated imagery, what I was thinking, what LTL thought I was thinking etc etc--is a bit embarrassing, especially in a public thread. But fair is fair, I suppose.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Have a comprehension problem KFN? I never told mojave I don't read her posts. In fact, she is one of the few posters on the Lib side I read. I said I don't have any desire to read her recently suggested reading assignments (links). I suggest you stop interrupting and insulting everyone and making stuff up that isn't the truth, perhaps more would speak to you.


What's with you, KPG? You truly have been unusually and impossibly rude these past few days. You're snapping like a crocodile, and it's upsetting a lot of people here.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Have a comprehension problem KFN? I never told mojave I don't read her posts. In fact, she is one of the few posters on the Lib side I read. I said I don't have any desire to read her recently suggested reading assignments (links). Grow up and stop interrupting and insulting everyone and making stuff up that isn't the truth.


Oh, wait! THIS is what you said!

"I have no desire to read anything you posted. Happy lying and poor attempt on your part, I must say, trying to hide the truth by changing the words and not admitting your errors. Is that how you teach as well?"

So who's making stuff up? You accuse everyone of lying! Do you have a comprehension issue? Perhaps, you're the one who needs to grow up! Or maybe just go away!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh, wait! THIS is what you said!
> 
> "I have no desire to read anything you posted. Happy lying and poor attempt on your part, I must say, trying to hide the truth by changing the words and not admitting your errors. Is that how you teach as well?"
> 
> So who's making stuff up? You accuse everyone of lying! Do you have a comprehension issue? Perhaps, you're the one who needs to grow up! Or maybe just go away!


That would be nice, wouldn't it? Wouldn't hold my breath, though.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh, wait! THIS is what you said!
> 
> "I have no desire to read anything you posted. Happy lying and poor attempt on your part, I must say, trying to hide the truth by changing the words and not admitting your errors. Is that how you teach as well?"
> 
> So who's making stuff up? You accuse everyone of lying! Do you have a comprehension issue? Perhaps, you're the one who needs to grow up! Or maybe just go away!


It's the accusation of lying that gets me. Nobody is ever mistaken or doesn't understand - oops, sorry, comprehend - or forgets. It's always called a lie by someone who has said, at different times, that 1. she always tells the truth and 2. she has a perfect memory, though 3. she can suddenly turn around and say the exact opposite of what she had just been insisting on "prior."


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm sorry, Nebraska, but I did feel obligated to offer to sort the matter out. Frankly, rehashing the incident--posted image, my suggestion, associated imagery, what I was thinking, what LTL thought I was thinking etc etc--is a bit embarrassing, especially in a public thread. But fair is fair, I suppose.


This is not just a matter of fairness; it's a necessity: to squeeze the last bit of meaning and intention out of what's been said. (If you don't, they'll accuse you of having said something you never said and convincing themselves that they're right.) Besides, what's going on in the world that's more important than whether or not you threatened LTL?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It's the accusation of lying that gets me. Nobody is ever mistaken or doesn't understand - oops, sorry, comprehend - or forgets. It's always called a lie by someone who has said, at different times, that 1. she always tells the truth and 2. she has a perfect memory, though 3. she can suddenly turn around and say the exact opposite of what she had just been insisting on "prior."


So true, Purl. Comparisons between KPG and Pinocchio have been done to death so I shouldn't go there, but my...that wooden nose of hers could stretch to the moon and back.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> So true, Purl. Comparisons between KPG and Pinocchio have been done to death so I shouldn't go there, but my...that wooden nose of hers could stretch to the moon and back.


That brings up a troubling mental picture.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> This is not just a matter of fairness; it's a necessity: to squeeze the last bit of meaning and intention out of what's been said. (If you don't, they'll accuse you of having said something you never said and convincing themselves that they're right.) Besides, what's going on in the world that's more important than whether or not you threatened LTL?


I'm forced to agree with you, Purl. I have a hunch that the KPG the Cobra story is well on its way to becoming the KP version of an urban legend--a semi-mythical tale that repeats itself _ad nauseum_ and grows more fantastic with each retelling.

Frankly, given KPG's behavior these days I think that comparing her to a viper was pretty mild. How else was I supposed to express my disapproval? By calling her an evil Jack that pops out of its box when one of the FF ladies turns the crank?


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> So true, Purl. Comparisons between KPG and Pinocchio have been done to death so I shouldn't go there, but my...that wooden nose of hers could stretch to the moon and back.


All I am imagining is how many broomsticks that much of a dowel would make.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> All I am imagining is how many broomsticks that much of a dowel would make.


Or whittled down into multiple pairs of chopsticks--enough for every person in Asia, I imagine.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> No, I hate to let the matter go, LTL, as it disturbed you so. We need to talk about it some more--in as much detail and for as long as it takes to really get to the bottom of this. What do you say?


We already got to Lake's bottom with this matter.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It's the accusation of lying that gets me. Nobody is ever mistaken or doesn't understand - oops, sorry, comprehend - or forgets. It's always called a lie by someone who has said, at different times, that 1. she always tells the truth and 2. she has a perfect memory, though 3. she can suddenly turn around and say the exact opposite of what she had just been insisting on "prior."


Its because she doesn't tag after us to discuss anything. She only comes to look for things she can attack. She carefully places her bait, and then she strikes!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> We already got to Lake's bottom with this matter.


Do we have to go to her bottom? :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> We already got to Lake's bottom with this matter.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh, wait! THIS is what you said!
> 
> *"I have no desire to read anything you posted.* Happy lying and poor attempt on your part, I must say, trying to hide the truth by changing the words and not admitting your errors. Is that how you teach as well?"
> 
> So who's making stuff up? You accuse everyone of lying! Do you have a comprehension issue? Perhaps, you're the one who needs to grow up! Or maybe just go away!


My God, you truly do have a comprehension problem.

Let me spell it out for you; I was in a conversation with mojave and it is impossible to not read her posts while conversing intelligently with her. Are you still with me? Mojave and I had an exchange of a couple of posts, called a conversation.

Also, please notice I said, "I have no desire to read anything you *posted.* "Ed" refers to the reading assignment mojave told me to enjoy when she said, "Happy Reading," to which I respond*ed* I don't take her orders on what I will read.

Talk about nitpicky and not following the conversation and looking for a fight over something that never concerned you. You are so eager to insult me, you cannot understand what you read even after you quoted it and repeated it.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Its because she doesn't tag after us to discuss anything. She only comes to look for things she can attack. She carefully places her bait, and then she strikes!


... and there you go again. Can you make a post without insulting me or others? I doubt it.

I had a conversation with mojave and it just eats you alive that others can have a civil conversation of which you are not a part.

Get this, I've had many conversations in the past with mojave. Surprise!

Oh, and you'll also love this - I didn't start the conversation. So, no, I didn't place any bait. It is you who are fishing for an argument.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> My God, you truly do have a comprehension problem.
> 
> Let me spell it out for you; I was in a conversation with mojave and it is impossible to not read her posts while conversing intelligently with her. Are you still with me? Mojave and I had an exchange of a couple of posts, called a conversation.
> 
> ...


Jack's back. Handle with caution, ladies.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> My God, you truly do have a comprehension problem.
> 
> Let me spell it out for you; I was in a conversation with mojave and it is impossible to not read her posts while conversing intelligently with her. Are you still with me? Mojave and I had an exchange of a couple of posts, called a conversation.
> 
> ...


Taking the LORD'S name in vain?!? My, my! Even I, can comprehend that! Your facade is slipping! Go away!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> ... and there you go again. Can you make a post without insulting me or others? I doubt it.
> 
> I had a conversation with mojave and it just eats you alive that others can have a civil conversation of which you are not a part.
> 
> ...


And here YOU are, again! Just go away! Nobody (except D&Pers), wants to talk to you!


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And here YOU are, again! Just go away! Nobody (except D&Pers), wants to talk to you!


So why do you keep talking to me and bringing up my name only to insult me.

I have no facade and you are always itching for an argument.

How old are you, three; old enough to know better, I'm certain.

You accuse me of everything, I've stated the truth and only facts. You cannot make your point or show I did anything of which you accuse me, so you personally attack and insult.

You are offering nothing to the conversation or thread with your pettiness.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

How frivolous we are this evening!

Just heard that Sotloff was beheaded by IS.

There are 26 more Americans in their stash. Seems like the liberal news (Chris Matthews) is getting impatient with Obama's "inaction". What do you think?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> How frivolous we are this evening!
> 
> Just heard that Sotloff was beheaded by IS.
> 
> There are 26 more Americans in their stash. Seems like the liberal news (Chris Matthews) is getting impatient with Obama's "inaction". What do you think?


I think you should stop watching MSNBC; this news was presented six or so hours ago.

BTW: did you know that only 5% of 38,000 Americans polled believe MSNBC is a trusted news source. Actually, the poll showed that only the 5% trust MSNBC for their news. MSNBC is in deep trouble because of their lack of ratings, sponsors and viewers.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> We already got to Lake's bottom with this matter.


Please, that is not an image I want following me this late in the day!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I think you should stop watching MSNBC; this news was presented six or so hours ago.
> 
> BTW: did you know that only 5% of 38,000 Americans polled believe MSNBC is a trusted news source. Actually, the poll showed that only the 5% trust MSNBC for their news. MSNBC is in deep trouble because of their lack of ratings, sponsors and viewers.


Thanks for your comments on the minorest details in my post. Excuse me for not relaying the beheading news as soon as it happened, as I was out and about today. Otherwise, I am hoping to honor the purpose of this thread.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> KPG has her coterie of loyal friends. I am sure she is a loyal friend to each of her supporters. Possibly as long as her circle of friends continues to agree with her and support her. What happens to anybody who gets out of line? Enmity and banishment? Not the sort of friend I would cultivate. With a friend like that who needs enemies?
> 
> However, to people with whom she disagrees she shows her Mr. Hyde side and is mean spirited, says nasty things, makes false accusations, appears to deliberately misinterpret what is said and comes across as a viper spewing venom. She is evidently not a devotee of Dale Carnegie.


Quite the contrary, Marilyn, KPG is a friend of mine and I disagree with her on a number of things. In fact we are in the middle of a fairly serious discussion as we speak and we hold opposing opinions. I am not in the least bit concerned with what my punishment will be for not towing the party line. I am assured that the bruises will heal in a week or two!!!

What a ridiculous thing that was for you to say...what a doofus!


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

SQM said:


> How frivolous we are this evening!
> 
> Just heard that Sotloff was beheaded by IS.
> 
> There are 26 more Americans in their stash. Seems like the liberal news (Chris Matthews) is getting impatient with Obama's "inaction". What do you think?


SQM I am getting impatient as I know if nothing is done they will become llike Germany but in the middle East. You and I both know they will be going into Israel and destory it. With each passing day they become stronger and stronger.

When I see men lined up and shot in a mass grave, it reminds me what the Germans did. When I see pictures of women and children behead. Not just men from this country, their own people. When I heard the little girl of 12 on TV tell of watching them shot her father in the head because he would not reanounce his Christian faith. When they destory and kill others because they will not bow down to their faith. It reminds me of Hilter and what he did.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> SQM I am getting impatient as I know if nothing is done they will become llike Germany but in the middle East. You and I both know they will be going into Israel and destory it. With each passing day they become stronger and stronger.
> 
> When I see men lined up and shot in a mass grave, it reminds me what the Germans did. When I see pictures of women and children behead. Not just men from this country, their own people. When I heard the little girl of 12 on TV tell of watching them shot her father in the head because he would not reanounce his Christian faith. When they destory and kill others because they will not bow down to their faith. It reminds me of Hilter and what he did.


Me too. But this ISIS seems like an equal opportunity killer - not just going after Jews. In fact, since we are smaller in number, I have to assume that all of Christendom is the biggest target along with the 'wrong' Muslims and Buddhists, Hindus, etc. They are out to get all of us and they seem to be quite savvy. ISIS popped up at the right time. The US is fatigued by the wasteful 10 year war in Iraq. So these terrorists took advantage of the situation to strike, as did a group in Somalia.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

SQM said:


> Me too. But this ISIS seems like an equal opportunity killer - not just going after Jews. In fact, since we are smaller in number, I have to assume that all of Christendom is the biggest target along with the 'wrong' Muslims and Buddhists, Hindus, etc. They are out to get all of us and they seem to be quite savvy. ISIS popped up at the right time. The US is fatigued by the wasteful 10 year war in Iraq. So these terrorists took advantage of the situation to strike, as did a group in Somalia.


I don't feel the same as you do about Iraq. But I do question our and other nations going into Afganstin(sure not spelt right). As Suddam was killing his own people and gasing them. 
What bothers me is the cuts in our military budget. Granted there is a lot of waste. But still we have given to much away to other nations. The money that flows into those countrys should have been stop as soon as the trouble started. Iran is now free to do what it wants and am sure Atomic bomb is on its way there. We removed all santions why, then we send money to countrys that funnel it into Terrorist groups. It's a scary world right now.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> Me too. But this ISIS seems like an equal opportunity killer - not just going after Jews. In fact, since we are smaller in number, I have to assume that all of Christendom is the biggest target along with the 'wrong' Muslims and Buddhists, Hindus, etc. They are out to get all of us and they seem to be quite savvy. ISIS popped up at the right time. The US is fatigued by the wasteful 10 year war in Iraq. So these terrorists took advantage of the situation to strike, as did a group in Somalia.


 SQM you are a prophetess and don't even know it.
Who are the beheaded martyrs in Revelation 20:4?

By Rev. Roger Best

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4)

This passage answers several questions. Who is beheaded? Clearly, believers alive on the earth during the time Antichrist is reigning. When are they beheaded? The text indicates that Antichrist's reign of terror begins at the midpoint of Daniel's Seventieth Week and runs to the beginning of the Day of the Lord. Why are they beheaded? Believers will be challenged for their faith in Christ and their unwillingness to worship Antichrist.

Unfortunately, it does not answer a very important question. Why are they resurrected at the beginning of the millennium? Perhaps insight is given in Revelation 6:9-11 concerning this question. The similarity between the two groups of martyrs described in these two passages allow the reader to conclude that the same group is described in both places.

While it is not possible to be dogmatic, the martyrs in the book of Revelation appear to be special in that they refuse to submit to Antichrist's demand for worship and are killed for it. The period beginning at the midpoint of Daniel's Seventieth Week and running until the beginning of the Day of the Lord/God's wrath will be the single most demanding time in human history to be a follower of Christ. Those who are faithful during this time, up to and including the giving of their lives, will be honored by God. To die as a "beheaded martyr" and be raised near the beginning of the millennial kingdom for all to see would certainly be a great honor.

Their deaths are particularly violent and ruthless which may in fact explain why they are resurrected at the beginning of the millennial reign of Christ. Revelation 6:11 indicates that God instructed the martyrs to wait a little while longer for their deaths to be avenged on those who dwell on the earth. God's vengeance against the earth dwellers culminates with the battle of Armageddon that occurs at the end of the 30-day reclamation period that follows the Seventieth Week of Daniel.

Therefore, these martyrs are resurrected after Armageddon very near the beginning of the millennial kingdom. This is about as dogmatic as one is able to be given what the text explicitly says.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And here YOU are, again! Just go away! Nobody (except D&Pers), wants to talk to you!


How nice of you you criticize her and you turn around and act like that.

How do you know how may people want to talk to her?

I would ask you do others talk to you other then the people on the left.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> How frivolous we are this evening!
> 
> Just heard that Sotloff was beheaded by IS.
> 
> There are 26 more Americans in their stash. Seems like the liberal news (Chris Matthews) is getting impatient with Obama's "inaction". What do you think?


Not much to say except the obvious: those 26 Americans are f***ed (excuse my language). There isn't a chance in the world of getting them back unless we're prepared to hand over stacks of cash to ISIS, which of course will be used for more scimitars, knives, and video cameras.

I'm not too concerned about Obama's so-called "inaction"--it's obvious from the growing number of official envoys being dispatched to the Middle East that a lot going on behind the scenes. I'm not sure how trustworthy countries like Saudi Arabia will ultimately be, but they can be counted on in one respect: to deliver a resounding and well-deserved coup de gras when we finally get ISIS backed into a corner.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Not much to say except the obvious: those 26 Americans are f***ed (excuse my language). There isn't a chance in the world of getting them back unless we're prepared to hand over stacks of cash to ISIS, which of course will be used for more scimitars, knives, and video cameras.
> 
> I'm not too concerned about Obama's so-called "inaction"--it's obvious from the growing number of official envoys being dispatched to the Middle East that a lot going on behind the scenes. I'm not sure how trustworthy countries like Saudi Arabia will ultimately be, but they can be counted on in one respect: to deliver a resounding and well-deserved coup de gras when we finally get ISIS backed into a corner.


Just talked to my bro, The Historian, and he believes that a coalition is being formed now to fight against ISIS. I think the Saudis are the wrong kind of muslim, so they ultimately should prove to be trustworthy. I guess there really is no inaction - just careful team building.

While I am shocked by the beheadings, I have to feel that anyone who deliberately puts himself in a very dangerous situation, must be aware of the terrible risks. Yes, I agree their geese are cooked.

Bumps - thanks for the passages. Do other cultures predict doom also?


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> Just talked to my bro, The Historian, and he believes that a coalition is being formed now to fight against ISIS. I think the Saudis are the wrong kind of muslim, so they ultimately should prove to be trustworthy. I guess there really is no inaction - just careful team building.
> 
> While I am shocked by the beheadings, I have to feel that anyone who deliberately puts himself in a very dangerous situation, must be aware of the terrible risks. Yes, I agree their geese are cooked.
> 
> Bumps - thanks for the passages. Do other cultures predict doom also?


I don't know about other cultures. But it is the Bible . Soon to be happening. I can see it coming.


----------



## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

Saudis = Sunni
ISIS = Sunni
Hamas = Sunni
al Maliki = Shia
Iran = Shia
Hezbollah = Shia


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> Just talked to my bro, The Historian, and he believes that a coalition is being formed now to fight against ISIS. I think the Saudis are the wrong kind of muslim, so they ultimately should prove to be trustworthy. I guess there really is no inaction - just careful team building.
> 
> While I am shocked by the beheadings, I have to feel that anyone who deliberately puts himself in a very dangerous situation, must be aware of the terrible risks.


But how could they have known just how real the danger? Most of these guys were snatched a year or more ago. The Middle East is always bubbling and boiling, but ISIS wasn't even on the world radar then.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

mojave said:


> Saudis = Sunni
> ISIS = Sunni
> Hamas = Sunni
> al Maliki = Shia
> ...


Don't forget Indonesia, where the majority are Sunni. Indonesia may be a long way away from the Middle East but they can, and do, export their terrorists to fight in their Holy Wars. Remember the Bali bombings and the bombing of the Embassies in Jakarta. Bali is only just over three hours flying time north of where I live, Indonesia is our next door neighbour.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> But how could they have known just how real the danger? Most of these guys were snatched a year or more ago. The Middle East is always bubbling and boiling, but ISIS wasn't even on the world radar then.


ISIS is the re-organized version of Al Qaeda in Iraq. Just like some chapters of the KKK rebranded themselves. New name - same old stink


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

mojave said:


> ISIS is the re-organized version of Al Qaeda in Iraq. Just like some chapters of the KKK rebranded themselves. New name - same old stink


No. Worse. Kind of like the scent of a durian. Most people find it atrocious, but some few are drawn to its rank odor. That's what's happening here, and it's hard for me to understand.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Jack's back. Handle with caution, ladies.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> But how could they have known just how real the danger? Most of these guys were snatched a year or more ago. The Middle East is always bubbling and boiling, but ISIS wasn't even on the world radar then.


The freelancers volunteered to go into hotbed countries. They mostly followed war stories. I think they were adrenaline junkies.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> But how could they have known just how real the danger? Most of these guys were snatched a year or more ago. The Middle East is always bubbling and boiling, but ISIS wasn't even on the world radar then.


*Heres A Picture Of John McCain Hanging Out With ISIS Freedom Fighters In 2013*

Read more at Wonkette: http://wonkette.com/552931/heres-a-picture-of-john-mccain-hanging-out-with-isis-freedom-fighters-in-2013#ixzz3CDoJ04oP
Read more at http://wonkette.com/552931/heres-a-picture-of-john-mccain-hanging-out-with-isis-freedom-fighters-in-2013#1GQlOus8GEoOqR9w.99


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> The freelancers volunteered to go into hotbed countries. They mostly followed war stories. I think they were adrenaline junkies.


Unfortunately terrorism relies on terror. They need publicity to spread their terror. News media, whether print or online, relies on sensationalism, they depend on the use of exciting or shocking stories or language, often at the expense of accuracy, in order to provoke public interest or excitement. The general public demand instant, up to the minute and in graphic imagery, details about the atrocities committed by the terrorists. If the terrorists were starved of the media outlets to broadcast their terror tactics????? Perhaps we, the general public, should not repeat the horror stories. We are, in many ways, pandering to the terrorists by repeating these stories, we are adding to the terror by spreading the stories to an even larger audience. That is what the terrorists want, to spread terror and force others to obey, and others will obey them out of sheer fear.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Unfortunately terrorism relies on terror. They need publicity to spread their terror. News media, whether print or online, relies on sensationalism, they depend on the use of exciting or shocking stories or language, often at the expense of accuracy, in order to provoke public interest or excitement. The general public demand instant, up to the minute and in graphic imagery, details about the atrocities committed by the terrorists. If the terrorists were starved of the media outlets to broadcast their terror tactics????? Perhaps we, the general public, should not repeat the horror stories. We are, in many ways, pandering to the terrorists by repeating these stories, we are adding to the terror by spreading the stories to an even larger audience. That is what the terrorists want, to spread terror and force others to obey, and others will obey them out of sheer fear.


I am not clear about your position. Are you suggesting we just ignore ISIS and they will go away?


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> I am not clear about your position. Are you suggesting we just ignore ISIS and they will go away?


No, I am not saying we should ignore ISIS as it definitely will not go away. I am saying that perhaps we should not give ISIS an outlet to spread their terror into our living rooms every five minutes. Yes, broadcast what has happened, but is there a need for the horrific, graphic images? When people see those images they are immediately fearful, full or terror, and that is what ISIS want. The people who are suffering at the hands of ISIS definitely need help. Perhaps more details should be given to the humanitarian help that is being given to the people who are suffering at the hands of ISIS?

It is a complex issue. Just who is funding ISIS? I know they are seizing all the assets from the banks and other institutions in the areas they are overrunning, but there are powerful interests acting behind the scenes who are funding them also.

So, not ignoring ISIS, just not giving them so much air time to spread their terror.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> No, I am not saying we should ignore ISIS as it definitely will not go away. I am saying that perhaps we should not give ISIS an outlet to spread their terror into our living rooms every five minutes. Yes, broadcast what has happened, but is there a need for the horrific, graphic images? When people see those images they are immediately fearful, full or terror, and that is what ISIS want. The people who are suffering at the hands of ISIS definitely need help. Perhaps more details should be given to the humanitarian help that is being given to the people who are suffering at the hands of ISIS?
> 
> It is a complex issue. Just who is funding ISIS? I know they are seizing all the assets from the banks and other institutions in the areas they are overrunning, but there are powerful interests acting behind the scenes who are funding them also.
> 
> So, not ignoring ISIS, just not giving them so much air time to spread their terror.


I forgot to mention how cute your avatar is Ms. Eve.

I rarely watch the news so I am not affected too much by ugly images. But I stay tuned just enough to sound a little less idiotic than usual, here. Monitor what you watch - too much negativity is not good. I agree.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/09/02/report-nearly-a-dozen-commercial-airliners-missing-ahead-of-911-anniversary-after-islamists-overrun-libyan-airport/


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> No, I am not saying we should ignore ISIS as it definitely will not go away. I am saying that perhaps we should not give ISIS an outlet to spread their terror into our living rooms every five minutes. Yes, broadcast what has happened, but is there a need for the horrific, graphic images? When people see those images they are immediately fearful, full or terror, and that is what ISIS want. The people who are suffering at the hands of ISIS definitely need help. Perhaps more details should be given to the humanitarian help that is being given to the people who are suffering at the hands of ISIS?
> 
> It is a complex issue. Just who is funding ISIS? I know they are seizing all the assets from the banks and other institutions in the areas they are overrunning, but there are powerful interests acting behind the scenes who are funding them also.
> 
> So, not ignoring ISIS, just not giving them so much air time to spread their terror.


I saw this article. I haven't checked it's veracity, but I'll share it anyway.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/14/america-s-allies-are-funding-isis.html


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Not much to say except the obvious: those 26 Americans are f***ed (excuse my language). There isn't a chance in the world of getting them back unless we're prepared to hand over stacks of cash to ISIS, which of course will be used for more scimitars, knives, and video cameras.
> 
> I'm not too concerned about Obama's so-called "inaction"--it's obvious from the growing number of official envoys being dispatched to the Middle East that a lot going on behind the scenes. I'm not sure how trustworthy countries like Saudi Arabia will ultimately be, but they can be counted on in one respect: to deliver a resounding and well-deserved coup de gras when we finally get ISIS backed into a corner.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
It's sad to consider, but these people set themselves in harm's way. I'm sure we will try to rescue them if we can but that is America going out of its way rather than something owed . IMHO


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> *Heres A Picture Of John McCain Hanging Out With ISIS Freedom Fighters In 2013*
> 
> Read more at Wonkette: http://wonkette.com/552931/heres-a-picture-of-john-mccain-hanging-out-with-isis-freedom-fighters-in-2013#ixzz3CDoJ04oP
> Read more at http://wonkette.com/552931/heres-a-picture-of-john-mccain-hanging-out-with-isis-freedom-fighters-in-2013#1GQlOus8GEoOqR9w.99


 :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: Shame on McCain. Put a black hood over their heads and give them a sword.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

As with the terrorists on KP, I say ignoring them is the best thing we can do. Prepare behind the scenes without fanfare.



EveMCooke said:


> Unfortunately terrorism relies on terror. They need publicity to spread their terror. News media, whether print or online, relies on sensationalism, they depend on the use of exciting or shocking stories or language, often at the expense of accuracy, in order to provoke public interest or excitement. The general public demand instant, up to the minute and in graphic imagery, details about the atrocities committed by the terrorists. If the terrorists were starved of the media outlets to broadcast their terror tactics????? Perhaps we, the general public, should not repeat the horror stories. We are, in many ways, pandering to the terrorists by repeating these stories, we are adding to the terror by spreading the stories to an even larger audience. That is what the terrorists want, to spread terror and force others to obey, and others will obey them out of sheer fear.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No. Provide no attention, but prepare behind the scenes. IMO



SQM said:


> I am not clear about your position. Are you suggesting we just ignore ISIS and they will go away?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> No, I am not saying we should ignore ISIS as it definitely will not go away. I am saying that perhaps we should not give ISIS an outlet to spread their terror into our living rooms every five minutes. Yes, broadcast what has happened, but is there a need for the horrific, graphic images? When people see those images they are immediately fearful, full or terror, and that is what ISIS want. The people who are suffering at the hands of ISIS definitely need help. Perhaps more details should be given to the humanitarian help that is being given to the people who are suffering at the hands of ISIS?
> 
> It is a complex issue. Just who is funding ISIS? I know they are seizing all the assets from the banks and other institutions in the areas they are overrunning, but there are powerful interests acting behind the scenes who are funding them also.
> 
> So, not ignoring ISIS, just not giving them so much air time to spread their terror.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: Shame on McCain. Put a black hood over their heads and give them a sword.


Much as I dislike his stance on many things, I have to say that we can't call McCain much to task here.

Look back over the past 70 years or so. Repeatedly the US has supported or "befriended" groups or leaders for our own purposes. Usually when said groups or leaders were in opposition to others we had a beef with or who did not conform to our wants or ideals. Only to have them turn into enemies that we hate later.

In McCain's case it was a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" at the point when that picture was taken. That sort of friendship is built on shifting sands.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Not much to say except the obvious: those 26 Americans are f***ed (excuse my language). There isn't a chance in the world of getting them back unless we're prepared to hand over stacks of cash to ISIS, which of course will be used for more scimitars, knives, and video cameras.
> 
> I'm not too concerned about Obama's so-called "inaction"--it's obvious from the growing number of official envoys being dispatched to the Middle East that a lot going on behind the scenes. I'm not sure how trustworthy countries like Saudi Arabia will ultimately be, but they can be counted on in one respect: to deliver a resounding and well-deserved coup de gras when we finally get ISIS backed into a corner.


Susan, a _coup de gras_ is "a slap of grease," which I'm sure those oil-rich Saudis can deliver. Is that why you used it instead of _coup de grâce_? Signed, the Unstoppable Proofreader.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Unfortunately terrorism relies on terror. They need publicity to spread their terror. News media, whether print or online, relies on sensationalism, they depend on the use of exciting or shocking stories or language, often at the expense of accuracy, in order to provoke public interest or excitement. The general public demand instant, up to the minute and in graphic imagery, details about the atrocities committed by the terrorists. If the terrorists were starved of the media outlets to broadcast their terror tactics????? Perhaps we, the general public, should not repeat the horror stories. We are, in many ways, pandering to the terrorists by repeating these stories, we are adding to the terror by spreading the stories to an even larger audience. That is what the terrorists want, to spread terror and force others to obey, and others will obey them out of sheer fear.


You're undoubtedly right, Eve, but how to prevent the media from giving them what they want? The rule the media follow is "If it bleeds, it leads."


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

'Shifting sands' sounds like McCain. I have the feeling he'll say anything. I don't respect the man.



sumpleby said:


> Much as I dislike his stance on many things, I have to say that we can't call McCain much to task here.
> 
> Look back over the past 70 years or so. Repeatedly the US has supported or "befriended" groups or leaders for our own purposes. Usually when said groups or leaders were in opposition to others we had a beef with or who did not conform to our wants or ideals. Only to have them turn into enemies that we hate later.
> 
> In McCain's case it was a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" at the point when that picture was taken. That sort of friendship is built on shifting sands.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Susan, a _coup de gras_ is "a slap of grease," which I'm sure those oil-rich Saudis can deliver. Is that why you used it instead of _coup de grâce_? Signed, the Unstoppable Proofreader.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: So hard when we try to use foreign terms without the proper punctuation. Leave it to Poor Purl.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Russia and Ukraine agree to ceasefire:

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/09/03/18/15/putin-poroshenko-agree-to-permanent-truce

Will be interesting to see whether it's a) true and b) whether it lasts.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Susan, a _coup de gras_ is "a slap of grease," which I'm sure those oil-rich Saudis can deliver. Is that why you used it instead of _coup de grâce_? Signed, the Unstoppable Proofreader.


Good catch, Purl. Of course you're right--right too about the Saudis being specialists at the oil treatments. I was imagining a lot of fancy sword work on their part, but stuffing that Abdel-Majed Abdel Bary headfirst down an oil well might be even better.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/09/02/report-nearly-a-dozen-commercial-airliners-missing-ahead-of-911-anniversary-after-islamists-overrun-libyan-airport/


One has to wonder what plans they have for the airliners. Surely our country would be prepared to shoot them down, wouldn't you think? There are so many things going on at once right now, that nothing would surprise me. Pray for the air traffic controllers, that they might spot them quickly, and give warning.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I saw this article. I haven't checked it's veracity, but I'll share it anyway.
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/14/america-s-allies-are-funding-isis.html


Thanks, Nebraska. I don't generally place a lot of faith in what The Blaze has to say, but this is interesting. If true, I wonder where they've been stashed? Those things are huge--you can't just tuck them away in someone's garage.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> One has to wonder what plans they have for the airliners. Surely our country would be prepared to shoot them down, wouldn't you think?


I'd sure like to think that our military would notice a huge "mystery jet" lumbering toward the US and take appropriate action! It's hard for me to believe though that members of ISIS have the brains and knowhow to get these things off the ground. Maybe they plan to sell them to the highest bidder? Those planes are worth 35M+ per--multiply by 11 and that amounts to a sizable stack of cash.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> As with the terrorists on KP, I say ignoring them is the best thing we can do. Prepare behind the scenes without fanfare.


The problem with getting prepared behind the scenes is that you have to use the media to get the people all riled up and ready for war. If the people aren't properly outraged, you won't get their support.

Hey Dame, I'm going to be in your neck of the woods over the next few days. DH has to go to Minneapolis on business, and I'm going to tag along.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> Much as I dislike his stance on many things, I have to say that we can't call McCain much to task here.
> 
> Look back over the past 70 years or so. Repeatedly the US has supported or "befriended" groups or leaders for our own purposes. Usually when said groups or leaders were in opposition to others we had a beef with or who did not conform to our wants or ideals. Only to have them turn into enemies that we hate later.
> 
> In McCain's case it was a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" at the point when that picture was taken. That sort of friendship is built on shifting sands.


I agree with much of what you said, but McCain is still a snake. He's a warmonger!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The problem with getting prepared behind the scenes is that you have to use the media to get the people all riled up and ready for war. If the people aren't properly outraged, you won't get their support.


Hmm...seems like we're already there--those beheading videos really have folks steamed. I won't bother to describe all the fanciful suggestions I've read on the Internet about what should be done with Jihadi John but, in comparison, they make my idea (push him down an oil well) seem positively benign.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Russia and Ukraine agree to ceasefire:
> 
> http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/09/03/18/15/putin-poroshenko-agree-to-permanent-truce
> 
> Will be interesting to see whether it's a) true and b) whether it lasts.


I'd sure like to know the terms of the ceasefire. I wonder if it includes Russia bring able to use its port and the ability to get their oil to Europe.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'd sure like to think that our military would notice a huge "mystery jet" lumbering toward the US and take appropriate action! It's hard for me to believe though that members of ISIS have the brains and knowhow to get these things off the ground. Maybe they plan to sell them to the highest bidder? Those planes are worth 35M+ per--multiply by 11 and that amounts to a sizable stack of cash.


Think 911. We trained their pilots. Also, even when our military KNEW what was happening with 911, they were ordered to stand down. As Winston Churchill said, "Never let a good crisis go to waste". Our government allowed 911 to happen. It took us into war which is very profitable for the military industrial complex and they were able to pass legislation that gave them more control over the people.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Hmm...seems like we're already there--those beheading videos really have folks steamed. I won't bother to describe all the fanciful suggestions I've read on the Internet about what should be done with Jihadi John but, in comparison, they make my idea (push him down an oil well) seem positively benign.


IMO, they want war, so they create situations in which the people will demand war. Our government created Al Quaida and I wouldn't be surprised if they had a hand in creating ISIS. They've been itching for war. Last year it was Syria. A few months ago, it was Russia. Now it's ISIS. They're really working the people into a frenzy. We WILL be going to war and I wouldn't be surprised if it were an all out world war.

Keep in mind, ALL of the media is owned by the very people who profit from war.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I gotta go. We're heading out. Ttyl!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I gotta go. We're heading out. Ttyl!


Bye!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Think 911. We trained their pilots. Also, even when our military KNEW what was happening with 911, they were ordered to stand down. As Winston Churchill said, "Never let a good crisis go to waste". Our government allowed 911 to happen. It took us into war which is very profitable for the military industrial complex and they were able to pass legislation that gave them more control over the people.


I sort of like this spin, especially since it was probably a Bush maneuver.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Further info re Moscow and Kiev:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/03/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0GX21720140903

My mother used to always tell me that nothing is what it seems.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

KPG, I used the wrong word when I asked about "criminals" being presented with the option of joining the military or going to trial and likely landing in jail. I should have asked about "suspected wrongdoers" who hadn't gone to trial yet and convicted of a crime being given the option of going to trial, very likely to be sentence to some jail time or being offered the option to join the military. This is like a plea deal that offers the option of relative freedom in the military or ending up with no freedom due to being sent to jail.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

The following story is to be featured on 60 Minutes here on Sunday night:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2336804/The-great-aviation-graveyard-New-aerial-images-hundreds-planes-left-die-American-deserts.html


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Think 911. We trained their pilots. Also, even when our military KNEW what was happening with 911, they were ordered to stand down. As Winston Churchill said, "Never let a good crisis go to waste". *Our government allowed 911 to happen.* It took us into war which is very profitable for the military industrial complex and they were able to pass legislation that gave them more control over the people.


KFN...I respectfully suggest that you need to get out more, you are spending way too much time in the circles of your own mind!


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

damemary said:


> As with the terrorists on KP, I say ignoring them is the best thing we can do. Prepare behind the scenes without fanfare.


So now you are calling me a Terrorists. Wow How low can one get to carry your hate into these words.

I thought I had heard it all with some of the names I have been called on here. But your words have been the worst.

You have accuse some on the right awful names but this please is that all you can do is find the nasty unkind words like this to use.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> So now you are calling me a Terrorists. Wow How low can one get to carry your hate into these words.
> 
> I thought I had heard it all with some of the names I have been called on here. But your words have been the worst.
> 
> You have accuse some on the right awful names but this please is that all you can do is find the nasty unkind words like this to use.


Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." Mathew 11: 28-30

Please consider the idea she did not refer to you. She did not give names or indicate political leanings. There are posts about people becoming incised over jokes. In other threads there are people resorting to name calling because they are too rigid to understand the beauty and inspiration available in diversity. Maybe a cup of tea and a few minutes sitting on the porch looking at the beauty of God's handiwork to calm you?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> KFN...I respectfully suggest that you need to get out more, you are spending way too much time in the circles of your own mind!


 :thumbup:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

mojave said:


> Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." Mathew 11: 28-30
> 
> Please consider the idea she did not refer to you. She did not give names or indicate political leanings. There are posts about people becoming incised over jokes. In other threads there are people resorting to name calling because they are too rigid to understand the beauty and inspiration available in diversity. Maybe a cup of tea and a few minutes sitting on the porch looking at the beauty of God's handiwork to calm you?


Who do you think you're kidding. Damemary's comments are crass and shows her absolute stupidity for uttering them particularly at this sensitive time. No matter to whom she referred (we all know), her words were disgusting and inappropriate. It is she who should be ignored and perhaps Admin will address the issue as well.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Who do you think you're kidding. Damemary's comments are crass and shows her absolute stupidity for uttering them particularly at this sensitive time. No matter who she referred to (we all know), her words were disgusting and inappropriate. It is she who should be ignored and perhaps Admin will address the issue as well.


_B-O-I-N-G!_


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

mojave said:


> Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." Mathew 11: 28-30
> 
> Please consider the idea she did not refer to you. She did not give names or indicate political leanings. There are posts about people becoming incised over jokes. In other threads there are people resorting to name calling because they are too rigid to understand the beauty and inspiration available in diversity. Maybe a cup of tea and a few minutes sitting on the porch looking at the beauty of God's handiwork to calm you?


Why did you quote the scripture with this post? I am not understanding.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> _B-O-I-N-G!_


What is wrong with you? I wondered for 2 years.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> What is wrong with you? I wondered for 2 years.


Not a thing if you'd only stop cranking the box.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Not a thing if you'd only stop cranking the box.


You make no sense.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You make no sense.


Heehee--to you, perhaps. Doesn't matter--I have no quarrel with you, Yarnie.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Heehee--to you, perhaps. Doesn't matter--I have no quarrel with you, Yarnie.


What? I am not Yarnie. :shock:


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Why did you quote the scripture with this post? I am not understanding.


Your friend seems quite upset, prof across the hall suggested this verse. He has degrees in bio and divinity. Most of us here find a cup of tea and enjoying Nature for awhile has a calming effect when events are stressful. Is compassion for her agitation inappropriate?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> What? I am not Yarnie. :shock:


She isn't Susan either.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> What? I am not Yarnie. :shock:


Gee, thanks for the correction. We _do_ have a quarrel, CB.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

mojave said:


> Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." Mathew 11: 28-30
> 
> Please consider the idea she did not refer to you. She did not give names or indicate political leanings. There are posts about people becoming incised over jokes. In other threads there are people resorting to name calling because they are too rigid to understand the beauty and inspiration available in diversity. Maybe a cup of tea and a few minutes sitting on the porch looking at the beauty of God's handiwork to calm you?


Great post. Thanks 
:!: :!: :!: :!: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Gee, thanks for the correction. We _do_ have a quarrel, CB.


I have no quarrel with anyone. You need to stop acting like a child and posting silly pictures. You are just trying to get brownie points with your friends. Surely they are not as immature as you.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Who do you think you're kidding. Damemary's comments are crass and shows her absolute stupidity for uttering them particularly at this sensitive time. No matter to whom she referred (we all know), her words were disgusting and inappropriate. It is she who should be ignored and perhaps Admin will address the issue as well.


What's so sensitive about this time? We live, as the Chinese proverb says, in interesting times.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

mojave said:


> Your friend seems quite upset, prof across the hall suggested this verse. He has degrees in bio and divinity. Most of us here find a cup of tea and enjoying Nature for awhile has a calming effect when events are stressful. Is compassion for her agitation inappropriate?


 Do you believe that Jesus can take your burdens away?


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Do you believe that Jesus can take your burdens away?


Not personally religious, respectful that Yarnie and you are. That's why I asked my fellow prof if there was an appropriate verse. She really seems to be hurting.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

mojave said:


> Not personally religious, respectful that Yarnie and you are. That's why I asked my fellow prof if there was an appropriate verse. She really seems to be hurting.


Yarnie isn't hurting over the comment, (she may say she isn't 'religious' either as CB has said of herself) she's disgusted that Damemary chose to call KPers the "t" word in a comparison to ISIS.

Turn your thoughts to the dame who needs help. I'm more curious what your fellow professor thinks of the dame's comments.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Thanks, Nebraska. I don't generally place a lot of faith in what The Blaze has to say, but this is interesting. If true, I wonder where they've been stashed? Those things are huge--you can't just tuck them away in someone's garage.


They can be hidden in plain sight. Major airports are huge, it's not a leap to hide a plane at one. Smaller airports can be "upgraded" to handle a larger plane and people bribed to "Know Nothing". It's not really that hard to hide a plane.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

mojave said:


> Not personally religious, respectful that Yarnie and you are. That's why I asked my fellow prof if there was an appropriate verse. She really seems to be hurting.


Wrong verse to apply to someone that was called a terrorist. Maybe the verse was meant for you.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Wrong verse to apply to someone that was called a terrorist.


I agree. What kind of "divinity" professor would suggest that verse anyway for that comment?

They (Lib professors) are all nuts or learned nothing when earning their 'degrees.'


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Wrong verse to apply to someone that was called a terrorist. Maybe the verse was meant for you.


First part of your message: Out of curiosity, what verse would you suggest? 
Second part: Doubtful. Life is very busy, but not unhappy or stressful.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

mojave said:


> First part of your message: Out of curiosity, what verse would you suggest?
> Second part: Doubtful. Life is very busy, but not unhappy or stressful.


 First part:I agree with Yarnie. She is not the one that needs a verse. Would you like to be called a terrorist? 
Second part: Having burdens is everyday life. Jesus can carry even the smallest burden. There is always unhappiness and stress in life. Especially when you are busy.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I have no quarrel with anyone. You need to stop acting like a child and posting silly pictures. You are just trying to get brownie points with your friends. Surely they are not as immature as you.


Hi Bumps.

I hope to be twice as immature and swallow as she is. Do you ever laugh at all these posts or do you take them all seriously? I snort a lot.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> Hi Bumps.
> 
> I hope to be twice as immature and swallow as she is. Do you ever laugh at all these posts or do you take them all seriously? I snort a lot.


Oh yeah I get some big snorts out of some of Susan's post.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I agree. What kind of "divinity" professor would suggest that verse anyway for that comment?
> 
> They (Lib professors) are all nuts or learned nothing when earning their 'degrees.'


Mrs Gifts has the gift for sweeping generalizations.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> First part:I agree with Yarnie. She is not the one that needs a verse. Would you like to be called a terrorist?
> Second part: Having burdens is everyday life. Jesus can carry even the smallest burden. There is always unhappiness and stress in life. Especially when you are busy.


You probably did not intend to cause great amusement. I have been called a terrorist and much worse by students when I refuse to give an automatic 'A' for the semester to a student who ditched most of the classes and failed every exam. That I actually have the audacity to demand class attendance and passing grades on exams & papers is a rude shock to some of these students in the semesters I teach a freshman level class.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> But you think Obama is capable of repairing the entire world and would rather go to parties or play golf. Once again you speak nonsense. Bush should have been paying attention to those suffering people, not to Strom Thurmond. But it was in good hands: Heckuva Job Brownie's


The only things I think Obama is capable of is campaigning and having a bounce in his step when descending Air Force 1. Being a golf orphan, I really don't care about Obama playing golf and have not mentioned it. The Gov of LA didn't declare NO a disaster area right away, therefore preventing the feds from getting involved. A lot of what happened in NO after Katrina was the fault of the state and its lack of attention to its own people, and that goes for before the storm as well.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

mojave said:


> You probably did not intend to cause great amusement. I have been called a terrorist and much worse by students when I refuse to give an automatic 'A' for the semester to a student who ditched most of the classes and failed every exam. That I actually have the audacity to demand class attendance and passing grades on exams & papers is a rude shock to some of these students in the semesters I teach a freshman level class.


How did I amuse you? By telling you Jesus is the one that can take your burdens away. You posted the verse not me.
Damemary is calling people who she disagrees with a terrorist. With all of the beheadings going on right now and the murders of innocent people I would not call that amusing . Threats are not funny to me.


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## mojave (Oct 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> How did I amuse you? By telling you Jesus is the one that can take your burdens away. You posted the verse not me.
> Damemary is calling people who she disagrees with a terrorist. With all of the beheadings going on right now and the murders of innocent people I would not call that amusing . Threats are not funny to me.


Telling me Jesus can take my burdens is not offensive.

Thinking I would be offended by being called a terrorist (or any other non-flattering name) is highly amusing. Maybe you are not in a position requiring you to deal with greatly inflated senses of entitlement so you cannot picture the temper tantrums of a freshman who thinks he/she deserves an 'A' for the semester without doing the required assignments. 
Now if you were to call the FBI or police and falsely accuse me of committing criminal acts, that would be another matter. But name calling - not worth getting upset.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> The only things I think Obama is capable of is campaigning and having a bounce in his step when descending Air Force 1. Being a golf orphan, I really don't care about Obama playing golf and have not mentioned it. The Gov of LA didn't declare NO a disaster area right away, therefore preventing the feds from getting involved. A lot of what happened in NO after Katrina was the fault of the state and its lack of attention to its own people, and that goes for before the storm as well.


Does this mean you play golf or were left behind by parents who played golf?

I like to golf and do we have that in common?

You're spot on re New Orleans. Bush was refused by the ex-Mayor (Nagin - a Democrat) there (now in jail) as was water/supplies/the Reserves multiple times by the Dem machine in charge who did much more to oppress and hurt the people of NO than Katrina ever did.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Quite the contrary, Marilyn, KPG is a friend of mine and I disagree with her on a number of things. In fact we are in the middle of a fairly serious discussion as we speak and we hold opposing opinions. I am not in the least bit concerned with what my punishment will be for not towing the party line. I am assured that the bruises will heal in a week or two!!!
> 
> What a ridiculous thing that was for you to say...what a doofus!


Well, Gerri, apparently you have the brains and sense to think for yourself, and a presence about you that KPG respects.

But some of the women who rush to KPG's defense every time she vilifies some of us on the other team and then is called on it certainly sounds like a queen and her drones.

It is so kind of you to call my comments ridiculous and to call me a doofus. What a mature way to note your disagreement with my remarks. What grade of junior high did you say you were?


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I gotta go. We're heading out. Ttyl!


Best wishes for a safe and pleasant trip.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> So now you are calling me a Terrorists. Wow How low can one get to carry your hate into these words.
> 
> I thought I had heard it all with some of the names I have been called on here. But your words have been the worst.
> 
> You have accuse some on the right awful names but this please is that all you can do is find the nasty unkind words like this to use.


Oh, this is a too funny for words example of what some of us have been commenting about.

The Dame didn't name you. She didn't single you out. She did not name any individual. And up you jump saying *you* are being called a name.

Do you consider yourself someone a person would call a terrorist? Is that how you view yourself? Or are you just someone who is looking for attention and grasping at straws to dramatize yourself?

Consider how ridiculous you have made yourself look. So sad. And in some contexts you have seemed like such a nice lady. Sorry I have to look at you differently now.

And no, I do not think the Dame or any of her friends will start walking on eggs to avoid upsetting you. Poor dear!


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Not a thing if you'd only stop cranking the box.


If I may Spooner, it is sometimes fun to box the crank.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I have no quarrel with anyone. You need to stop acting like a child and posting silly pictures. You are just trying to get brownie points with your friends. Surely they are not as immature as you.


Depends upon one's definition of immature. If one becomes overblown it leads to being pompous, annoying, and boring.

Life is too short to give up on the kid in us and have some fun playing with ideas and words. The world is such a serious place, at times a scary place, and many of us are getting closer and closer to the end of a one way road. If we can't find some fun and laughs in life, we have given up. It doesn't hurt to lighten up. Get a giggle out of silliness.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Wrong verse to apply to someone that was called a terrorist. Maybe the verse was meant for you.


And now you go jumping to assumptions. Nobody was named as a terrorist. But boyo, some people seem to self label and jump to their defense whenever something negative is said.

Is this how you view Yarnie? As a terrorist? Be kinder to her. She is someone who went through a tough year and suffered a sad loss.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> Mrs Gifts has the gift for sweeping generalizations.


Maybe she was an advertising executive in another life?


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Does this mean you play golf or were left behind by parents who played golf?
> 
> I like to golf and do we have that in common?
> 
> You're spot on re New Orleans. Bush was refused by the ex-Mayor (Nagin - a Democrat) there (now in jail) as was water/supplies/the Reserves multiple times by the Dem machine in charge who did much more to oppress and hurt the people of NO than Katrina ever did.


I don't play, just left behind by golfing parents. Boo Hoo. It was my father's passion. The golf club he belonged to made a special class for the golf widows, as most couldn't handle a club or hit the ball - it was amusing to watch them. :-D


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Oh, this is a too funny for words example of what some of us have been commenting about.
> 
> The Dame didn't name you. She didn't single you out. She did not name any individual. And up you jump saying *you* are being called a name.
> 
> ...


No, damemary didn't call Yarnie a terrorist directly. She did imply it though and made it broad enough to encompass the KPers from D&P. Last year she called us jihadists. Actually she referred to the Tea Party members as jihadists because she assumed we all belonged to the Tea Party.

Your making fun of Yarnie is so immature. I, for one and probably Yarnie, certainly don't have to look at you differently now as you have always been this way. It just amazes me how easy it is for your to look ridiculous, no effort required at all.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Well, Gerri, apparently you have the brains and sense to think for yourself, and a presence about you that KPG respects.
> 
> But some of the women who rush to KPG's defense every time she vilifies some of us on the other team and then is called on it certainly sounds like a queen and her drones.
> 
> It is so kind of you to call my comments ridiculous and to call me a doofus. What a mature way to note your disagreement with my remarks. What grade of junior high did you say you were?


You continue to disparage me and my friends on D&P and yet your offended by the word doofus? Doofus is a silly word, aren't you a proponent of enjoying silliness? In your own words, lighten up!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Just read that Bernie Madoff's remaining son died of cancer - at 47. Madoff's story is the stuff for Shakespeare.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> You continue to disparage me and my friends on D&P and yet your offended by the word doofus? Doofus is a silly word, aren't you a proponent of enjoying silliness? In your own words, lighten up!


Doofus means a stupid person. Not such a silly word if someone calls you that is it? And Marilyn is one of the sharpest minds around here!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> Doofus means a stupid person. Not such a silly word if someone calls you that is it? And Marilyn is one of the sharpest minds around here!


Ditto that!!!!!

Here is another interesting tidbit I ran across.

Why are most of the dangerous cities in the South and West?

http://www.thestreet.com/story/12747294/13/the-13-most-dangerous-cities-in-america.html


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> Ditto that!!!!!
> 
> Here is another interesting tidbit I ran across.
> 
> ...


I wonder if there's a correlation with numbers of jobs??


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Good theory. Maybe one of our Southern Ladies can suggest a reason.

Just heard on CNN that ISIS has half of Iraq and Syria. Blitzkrieg.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Doofus means a stupid person. Not such a silly word if someone calls you that is it? And Marilyn is one of the sharpest minds around here!


Thank you, your Majesty. I am honored to have the friends I do.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> Ditto that!!!!!
> 
> Here is another interesting tidbit I ran across.
> 
> ...


Did you read the comments from people who read the whole article? This is an annoying site that doesn't present the article on one page to scan. But from the comments I surmise they did not include Newark NJ, New Orleans, Chicago and some others where the people familiar with them say they are not safe.

The comments also allege that all crimes were lumped together rather than the rate of murders and rapes and other violent crimes being separated from less life threatening ones. There are some places I would not have gone near when I was young and could run fast, much less now.

But except for absolutely scary places like Camden and its ilk, if you know what areas are safe and what times of day they are safe, you should be okay.

It is when you read local papers and they report drive by shootings that you really get on edge. There are places I used to shop when we moved to this area 50 years ago that I would not go near any more. Of course most of the attractive stores that were there no longer exist, either.

Whatever the situation wherever you all live, stay alert and stay safe.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Gee. My family is urging me to move back to Chicago. Are they out to get me killed?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

SQM said:


> Gee. My family is urging me to move back to Chicago. Are they out to get me killed?


I think you learn to stay away from the "bad" sections. My big brother lives in Chicago, and I love going to visit him. There's so much to do. Out here, there are parts of Oakland to stay away from, too, but sometimes you have to pass through a place to get somewhere else. A few years ago my husband and I had gone to Lake Merritt in Oakland for something or other, and on the way to the freeway we got a little lost and DH had to use the facilities. He stopped at a McDonald's and I stayed in the car with the doors locked. When he came back he told me that he had never seen a men's room like that one. Everything was chained to the floor including the toilet, the seat, the paper holders---everything! The scary thing now is the proliferation of guns and drive-by shootings. They can happen anywhere.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Doofus means a stupid person. Not such a silly word if someone calls you that is it? And Marilyn is one of the sharpest minds around here!


You might be right that Marilyn is not stupid. However, my use of the word 'doofus' is a person who is ignorant of social skills which Marilyn definitely is if she contends that myself and my friends on D&P tremble in fear of disagreeing with KPG. That remark is not only ridiculous in the least but also highly insulting (to all parties) at best. And if you stand in agreement with her on that subject you're a doofus as well!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Thank you, your Majesty. I am honored to have the friends I do.


Yes, I think we have a rather great group of friends around here, each one unique. I've been on the forum for 3 years and have met many great friends along the way. Although I'm not going to write a testament, I love you all for your quick wit, intelligent discussions, good ideas, senses of humor, recipes, pictures, cartoons, good research and articles, and more. I'm always learning something. And, oh yeah---some of you even knit!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> You might be right that Marilyn is not stupid. However, my use of the word 'doofus' is a person who is ignorant of social skills which Marilyn definitely is if she contends that myself and my friends on D&P tremble in fear of disagreeing with KPG. That remark is not only ridiculous in the least but also highly insulting (to all parties) at best. And if you stand in agreement with her on that subject you're a doofus as well!


Oh my! All I did was write the definition of doofus.
I contend that Marilyn has excellent social skills and command of the language. She wrote what it looks like from her point of view. I have never seen anyone on D & P dare to disagree publicly with the Queen Bee. Go ahead and call all of us names, but we can only speak to what we have seen.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

And I forgot to say that my Yiddish vocabulary has quadrupled!


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

SQM said:


> Ditto that!!!!!
> 
> Here is another interesting tidbit I ran across.
> 
> ...


I don't know about that list, SQM, Forbes says the top 10 most dangerous cities are: Detroit, St Louis, Oakland, Stockton, Birmingham, Baltimore, Cleveland, Tallahassee, Atlanta, Milwaukee

Looks to me to be an even split between North/South and East/West.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2013/10/22/detroit-again-tops-list-of-most-dangerous-cities-but-crime-rate-dips/


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

cookiequeen said:


> And I forgot to say that my Yiddish vocabulary has quadrupled!


Sorry but yours has not. Al's did.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Oh my! All I did was write the definition of doofus.
> I contend that Marilyn has excellent social skills and command of the language. She wrote what it looks like from her point of view. I have never seen anyone on D & P dare to disagree publicly with the Queen Bee. Go ahead and call all of us names, but we can only speak to what we have seen.


We see the same from you and yours. I have yet to see any one of you ever call out anyone else for making false statements, accusations, or insinuations against any of us.

I think I remember something about silence meaning consent!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Gerslay said:


> I don't know about that list, SQM, Forbes says the top 10 most dangerous cities are: Detroit, St Louis, Oakland, Stockton, Birmingham, Baltimore, Cleveland, Tallahassee, Atlanta, Milwaukee
> 
> Looks to me to be an even split between North/South and East/West.
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2013/10/22/detroit-again-tops-list-of-most-dangerous-cities-but-crime-rate-dips/


Somehow I counted differently.

I am sure there are a lot of spins on this issue and it changes every few months. But, as was so smartly mentioned, follow the unemployment rate.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

SQM said:


> Somehow I counted differently.
> 
> I am sure there are a lot of spins on this issue and it changes every few months. But, as was so smartly mentioned, follow the unemployment rate.


Or check out which party controls the city, and for how long.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Oh my! All I did was write the definition of doofus.
> I contend that Marilyn has excellent social skills and command of the language. She wrote what it looks like from her point of view. I have never seen anyone on D & P dare to disagree publicly with the Queen Bee. Go ahead and call all of us names, but we can only speak to what we have seen.


Agreed. Sometimes you are known by the enemies you make. When I was in high school my friends and I did not go to the teen hangout where the "popular" crowd gathered. We were insulted regularly by the "in" crowd. We were nerds, really. In a way we were lucky, as the girls who attracted the hotshot boys usually ended up "in trouble". That was not for my friends and me.

But we were happy with who we were and enjoyed the way we lived our lives.

The 25th reunion was interesting. My best friend Bev and I had not been to the prior ones. One of the nastiest of the classmates came over to us all smiles and charm. She had not aged well. Bev and I looked much better than we had as chubby teenagers. Bev looked at me and said "The best revenge is looking good". That ended the conversation.

All the nerdy ones among us had gotten educations, had careers, and had interesting lives. Some of the "popular" ones had not made the effort to grow as people over the years because they never had to make an effort as teenagers. The nerdiest of the guys ended up being a real estate magnate in the area and another got his PhD at the Sorbonne and was a department head at a prestigious university.

Life is so much more interesting than most fiction.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Yarnie isn't hurting over the comment, (she may say she isn't 'religious' either as CB has said of herself) she's disgusted that Damemary chose to call KPers the "t" word in a comparison to ISIS.
> 
> Turn your thoughts to the dame who needs help. I'm more curious what your fellow professor thinks of the dame's comments.


Guess they got tired of calling people racists, and thought terrorist would work.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> I don't know about that list, SQM, Forbes says the top 10 most dangerous cities are: Detroit, St Louis, Oakland, Stockton, Birmingham, Baltimore, Cleveland, Tallahassee, Atlanta, Milwaukee
> 
> Looks to me to be an even split between North/South and East/West.
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2013/10/22/detroit-again-tops-list-of-most-dangerous-cities-but-crime-rate-dips/


I believe it has to do that those cities are run mostly by Democrats


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> And I forgot to say that my Yiddish vocabulary has quadrupled!


Mazel Tov!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Guess they got tired of calling people racists, and thought terrorist would work.


Oh come off it, LTL. We all remember how you and your cronies cheered on that truckers' convey last fall that planned to tie up the Beltway, seize the President by force, and try him in a kangaroo court. If I remember correctly, some of you even wanted to join them. So do us a favor and drop the innocent act.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

I started this topic just about 2 months ago and it hasn't gotten as much attention as WOW, BUT it's now up to 99 pages and if a bunch of you who've spent time here would post more often it would finally get split up by Admin into Current Events#2. This would warm the cockles of my heart, which may not be the most effective way of increasing participation here instead of WOW. But consider this, we are often reminded WOW is a topic formed to discuss abortion and I started this topic to get away from those reminders and create a general battleground. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I started this topic just about 2 months ago and it hasn't gotten as much attention as WOW, BUT it's now up to 99 pages and if a bunch of you who've spent time here would post more often it would finally get split up by Admin into Current Events#2. This would warm the cockles of my heart, which may not be the most effective way of increasing participation here instead of WOW. But consider this, we are often reminded WOW is a topic formed to discuss abortion and I started this topic to get away from those reminders and create a general battleground. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


I'd be happy to oblige.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'd be happy to oblige.


 Oooops. This post was meant for NB.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Oooops. This post was meant for NB.


That's OK. It added a few more posts. :wink:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

IMHO this thread has been hijacked also. I just skim through on occasion.



MaidInBedlam said:


> I started this topic just about 2 months ago and it hasn't gotten as much attention as WOW, BUT it's now up to 99 pages and if a bunch of you who've spent time here would post more often it would finally get split up by Admin into Current Events#2. This would warm the cockles of my heart, which may not be the most effective way of increasing participation here instead of WOW. But consider this, we are often reminded WOW is a topic formed to discuss abortion and I started this topic to get away from those reminders and create a general battleground. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I just read an article by ABC news talking about foreigners who come to this country on student visas. It said that there are some schools that are only set up to help foreigners get visas. It also said, many disappear once they get here. 
In the past year alone, 58,000 have overstayed their visas. 6000 who are considered to be a heightened concern, have vanished. Our government is trying to find them.

After 911, they supposedly acted to correct the problem of foreigners coming in on visas and vanishing. Its a serious security risk, along with our open borders. It's only a matter of time until terrorist acts on US soil become commonplace. It's almost as if we've extended an invitation.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/visa-program-struggles-track-missing-foreign-students/story?id=25208740


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I started this topic just about 2 months ago and it hasn't gotten as much attention as WOW, BUT it's now up to 99 pages and if a bunch of you who've spent time here would post more often it would finally get split up by Admin into Current Events#2. This would warm the cockles of my heart, which may not be the most effective way of increasing participation here instead of WOW. But consider this, we are often reminded WOW is a topic formed to discuss abortion and I started this topic to get away from those reminders and create a general battleground. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Doesn't seem much to say at the moment about abortion, but how about this? It does make me laugh as I'm no fan of Putin:

IS militants vow to 'de-throne' Putin over Syria support

Moscow (AFP) - Islamic State militants have issued a threat to President Vladimir Putin, vowing to oust him and "liberate" the volatile North Caucasus over his support of the Syrian regime.

"This is a message to you, oh Vladimir Putin, these are the jets that you have sent to Bashar, we will send them to you, God willing, remember that," said one fighter in Arabic, according to Russian-language captions provided in the video.

"And we will liberate Chechnya and the entire Caucasus, God willing," said the militant. "The Islamic State is and will be and it is expanding God willing."

"Your throne has already teetered, it is under threat and will fall when we come to you because Allah is truly on our side," said the fighter. "We are already on our way God willing."


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## admin (Jan 12, 2011)

This is an automated notice.

This topic was split up because it reached high page count.
Please feel free to continue the conversation in the new topic that was automatically created here:

http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-285238-1.html

Sorry for any inconvenience.


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