# "War on Women" #3



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Hey, fool, it was more than 10 minutes before you posted that I logged off. It was not in embarassment that I logged off.
> Poor KPG. Wrong again!


Tell that to Janet - she cares. Learn how to tell time, too.

You did it up BIG time, this time, by slamming Janet's talent.

I realize it is beneath you to apologize because you cannot get much lower than a worm's bellybutton lint.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Poor Purl said:


> Didn't get Marilyn's joke, did you?


Nope. Went right over her head.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

KPG...what an ego, VL thinks my soapbox avatar had something to do with her.

Amazing dont you think that two years ago I made it just for this very time?


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Poo Pur ... not talking to you


Another that you're not talking to?
That lasts a long time.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> Poo Pur ... not talking to you


If you made a public post, you're not only taling to Pur, but to everyone else who can read the thread too.

Or don't you get the concept of a public message board?


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Mine is getting close to that. I have sworn to buy no more, but then the quilt shop that I shop at also has a very nice selection of yarn. It's hard to pass some of it up.


I never have liked shopping though, so that may be why I don't understand. I was literally a "decide what you want, walk in the store and get it, and walk out" type of person. I do admit though that I have stayed for a bit in the yarn department to feel the yarns and ponder on what to get for a project. But then I usually only go in when I need something for a project. I'm weird, I'll admit it


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> No, I didn't.
> 
> I'm sorry, I confused you with a couple of the other nutbirds here on the board who thought they "discovered" who I really am.
> 
> ...


Actually, I'm impressed...not by their detective work (which is ludicrous and always has been) but rather that their string-and-Dixie Cup network is working so well. They must have been buzzing behind the scenes for hours over that one.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Tell that to Janet - she cares. Learn how to tell time, too.
> 
> You did it up BIG time, this time, by slamming Janet's talent.
> 
> I realize it is beneath you to apologize because you cannot get much lower than a worm's bellybutton lint.


Forgive me if I forget to laugh, but then nothing in your quote is funny. However, you are lower than whale poop. You know the stuff you wade through on the bottom of the ocean when you wake up?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

VocalLisa said:


> No, I didn't.
> 
> I'm sorry, I confused you with a couple of the other nutbirds here on the board who thought they "discovered" who I really am.
> 
> ...


You can't recognize Dorothy's shoes?????

The red shoes were sexy shoes on a soapbox. Far from the yellow brick variety.

You really did fall off the stage one too many times.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> Exodus:
> 
> 18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you mean about the Torah not being set in stone permanently. It's taken by the faithful to be exactly as it should be, no change allowed. In fact, a scribe copying a Torah scroll who makes a mistake or even just a smudge has to start over from the beginning.

This doesn't take into account the Dead Sea Scrolls, which indicate that there were several versions in the past.

Or do you mean that it's constantly interpreted and reinterpreted, with the specifics argued about ad infinitem? That's certainly true, though there's some kind of consensus now about the law.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

VocalLisa said:


> Actually Jesus was Jewish until he became Christian.


He couldn't be. Christian literally means "follower of Christ". He was the Christ, so he would have just been spinning in circles if he was a Christian and trying to follow himself. Allow that image makes me laugh, lol.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

VocalLisa said:


> Nope. Went right over her head.


Oh heck, you guys need to slow down.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> Exodus:
> 
> 18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
> 
> ...


Don't forget about eating shrimp. Or wearing wool and linen woven together in the same cloth. Or the many, many other
"thou shalt not" admonitions included.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm not sure what you mean about the Torah not being set in stone permanently. It's taken by the faithful to be exactly as it should be, no change allowed. In fact, a scribe copying a Torah scroll who makes a mistake or even just a smudge has to start over from the beginning.
> 
> This doesn't take into account the Dead Sea Scrolls, which indicate that there were several versions in the past.
> 
> Or do you mean that it's constantly interpreted and reinterpreted, with the specifics argued about ad infinitem? That's certainly true, though there's some kind of consensus now about the law.


I think that is how most of us outsiders understand it, Empress Poor Purl.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Actually, I'm impressed...not by their detective work (which is ludicrous and always has been) but rather that their string-and-Dixie Cup network is working so well. They must have been buzzing behind the scenes for hours over that one.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> KPG...what an ego, VL thinks my soapbox avatar had something to do with her.
> 
> Amazing dont you think that two years ago I made it just for this very time?


She thinks everything is all about her.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Forgive me if I forget to laugh, but then nothing in your quote is funny. However, you are lower than whale poop. You know the stuff you wade through on the bottom of the ocean when you wake up?


One Two Three... shall we laugh again? 
I know you were "signed off" while we laughed the last time... how did you do that, by the way? I would love to be able to do that trick, be away from the site and yet talking to people through the site...

Are you calling that lovely woman a bottom feeder? Tsk Tsk


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

susanmos2000 said:


> Actually, I'm impressed...not by their detective work (which is ludicrous and always has been) but rather that their string-and-Dixie Cup network is working so well. They must have been buzzing behind the scenes for hours over that one.


It was fun watching them spin their wheels, puffing themselves up with how "clever" they thought they were being.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Another that you're not talking to?
> That lasts a long time.


I'm going to give a thank you offering to Zeus when I get off KP.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

VocalLisa said:


> It was fun watching them spin their wheels, puffing themselves up with how "clever" they thought they were being.


You are not a gracious loser.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> The world doesn't understand the biblical instructions to the husband and the wife.
> 
> The husband and wife are equals and all decisions are made together.
> If there is a difference of opinion then the husband as the head of the house gets final say as the tie-breaker.
> ...


Husbands love your wives just as Christ loved his church. When was the word 'church' replaced with the word 'bride'. I was raised a Cathilic and studied at a convent for 12 years and was taught Christ was not married. Oh dear, those catechism books were incorrect and Christ had taken a wife. For various reasons, personal, I am no longer a Catholic.

Yes, I know the response from some will be that I am a slow learner who has made a dreadful mistake, but remember, to err is human, to forgive is divine. I am only human.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> No He is the Son of God. He KNOWS
> that He is part of the Trinity. Christ is Christianity.


Which son of god was he. There are several sons of god long before Jesus appeared. Jesus is just the latest version of a long line of sons god had. It's a nice story and if it makes you happy that's nice. We all have our happy stories that comfort us.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It ought to work, once a person is dependent on the church. Shunning sounds so complicated; do you see it working in any of the standard denominations? I think the Amish resort to it.
> 
> Come to think of it, there's a similar practice in Judaism, but it's used only for apostasy and a panel of rabbis have to agree on it. I don't know whether it's been used since Spinoza, in the 17th century.


I see a much lower level of it in some standard denominations, but for the most part no. I was terrified my mil would be shunned from her church once she joined because of me (since we all live together and I'm not Christian). She was actually surprised at how worried I was for her because of what I had seen. Her church is cool though. My daughter goes and I've been to special services.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm not sure what you mean about the Torah not being set in stone permanently. It's taken by the faithful to be exactly as it should be, no change allowed. In fact, a scribe copying a Torah scroll who makes a mistake or even just a smudge has to start over from the beginning.
> 
> This doesn't take into account the Dead Sea Scrolls, which indicate that there were several versions in the past.
> 
> Or do you mean that it's constantly interpreted and reinterpreted, with the specifics argued about ad infinitem? That's certainly true, though there's some kind of consensus now about the law.


PP, according to a Jewish in-law, Jewis scholars will argue incessantly about the meanings of writing in the Torah. It's
fundie Christians who believe in absolute inerrancy of the Bible, and it has to be the King James version. 
Serious scholars will learn Aramaic and/or Greek in order to read the Bible at its most authentic meaning.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> KPG...what an ego, VL thinks my soapbox avatar had something to do with her.
> 
> Amazing dont you think that two years ago I made it just for this very time?


You poor thing. You and your friends were all talking about "Oz" and how the red shoes weren't just Dorothy's but they were the Wicked Witches too... and talking about "Tin Man" etc...

You all thought you were so cleaver.

And we were all laughing at you AGAIN behind the scenes.

Face it, you're a loser.

Unlike you, I would not be so stupid as to chastise someone for making their identity so easy discovered, and actually make my own that discoverable.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Husbands love your wives just as Christ loved his church. When was the word 'church' replaced with the word 'bride'. I was raised a Cathilic and studied at a convent for 12 years and was taught Christ was not married. Oh dear, those catechism books were incorrectand Christ had taken a wife. For various reasons, personal, I am no longer a Catholic.
> 
> Yes, I know the response from some will be that I am a slow learner who has made a dreadful mistake, but remember, to err is human, to forgive is divine. I am only human.


No, you have a brain and are not afraid to use it.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You are not a gracious loser.


That's right. I'm not being gracious and I'm not the "loser" in this scenario.

As... if I weren't such a nice person... as Gersley likes to say, I could literally successfully do what she tried to do and entice some dangerous people right to her front door or provide a phone number for her "fans" to call her --- like she tried to do to another member here ... however, as good as fighting back as I am, I wouldn't cross that line the way SHE did.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm going to give a thank you offering to Zeus when I get off KP.


Careful, you'll seriously annoy Odin, the Dagda, and is it Osirus?(I forget, there are so many!)


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm not sure what you mean about the Torah not being set in stone permanently. It's taken by the faithful to be exactly as it should be, no change allowed. In fact, a scribe copying a Torah scroll who makes a mistake or even just a smudge has to start over from the beginning.
> 
> This doesn't take into account the Dead Sea Scrolls, which indicate that there were several versions in the past.
> 
> Or do you mean that it's constantly interpreted and reinterpreted, with the specifics argued about ad infinitem? That's certainly true, though there's some kind of consensus now about the law.


I think it was described to me as the second one. The interpretation and reinterpretation one


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Bother you - nope? Bratty insulted you, not me. I don't care where the candles came from - Bratty did though. She thought your packaging looked cheap too.
> 
> You were the one complaining on a KP thread you couldn't get anyone interested enough to buy what you painted for a price of even $5/candle. So, ya, you care.
> 
> ...


I wasn't complaining, I was commenting... the wrapping is cheap it is shrink wrap. LOL, you are striking out all over. 
You know what I don't care if it is technically tole the tole I used to own was primitive. who gives a sh**. 
If you still have that Dewberry material, I have the perfect place for you to put it. 
You would probably like it.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You are not a gracious loser.


I caught you in lies today, KPG. You can't cover them either as they are out there for all to see. You love to expose others and take a delight in doing so and tonight I will expose you and your lies. You call yourself a Christian? You are no follower of Christ. You put yourself above everything and everybody and your pride will be your downfall. You should take your sorry self back to D&P where they will let you lick your wounds. Take your girlfriend gersley with you. She doesn't even know what context hubba hubba is used in. If she did she wouldn't use it for a name for her pet. Maybe she should educate herself or you can tell her.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> It was fun watching them spin their wheels, puffing themselves up with how "clever" they thought they were being.


That they thought they were sending you a secret message (intended to infuriate you, of course) went right past me. I just thought they were being childish and tiresome with all the Oz references--"beating a dead horse" someone called it at the time.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

maysmom said:


> PP, according to a Jewish in-law, Jewis scholars will argue incessantly about the meanings of writing in the Torah. It's
> fundie Christians who believe in absolute inerrancy of the Bible, and it has to be the King James version.
> Serious scholars will learn Aramaic and/or Greek in order to read the Bible at its most authentic meaning.


I just about die laughing when people talk about that best interpretation, The King James Bible, that is inerrant. I guess they never hear of the "naughty Bibles" that were King James Bibles of 1611 that landed a lot of people in hot water for accidentally leaving out the "not" in "thou shall not commit adultery". :lol:


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> That's right. I'm not being gracious and I'm not the "loser" in this scenario.
> 
> As... if I weren't such a nice person... as Gersley likes to say, I could literally successfully do what she tried to do and entice some dangerous people right to her front door or provide a phone number for her "fans" to call her --- like she tried to do to another member here ... however, as good as fighting back as I am, I wouldn't cross that line the way SHE did.


Thou doth protesteth too much


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

I guess they never hear of the "naughty Bibles" that were King James Bibles of 1611 that landed a lot of people in hot water for accidentally leaving out the "not" in "thou shall not commit adultery". 

LK, maybe the copiers left out the "not" specifically for King James, lol.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> That they thought they were sending you a secret message (intended to infuriate you, of course) went right past me. I just thought they were being childish and tiresome with all the Oz references--"beating a dead horse" someone called it at the time.


They are always playing games. 
Which is why they think that we scheme all the time, they look for the same behavior in others that they obsess about it.


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Not so, Jesus declared His own divinity.


How many others of that time claimed the same?


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Is this post by rocky1991 bible thumping or bible bashing? I'm not quite certain.


Definitely not thunping, I leave that up to y"all. Not bible bashing either. Just saying he was raised a Jew and died a Jew.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

rocky1991 said:


> How many others of that time claimed the same?


Many...only Jesus is the truth!


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> She doesn't even know what context hubba hubba is used in. If she did she wouldn't use it for a name for her pet. Maybe she should educate herself or you can tell her.


You know I think Cheeky B Lightweight is right...from now on the pup is Hubba ... and dh is HubbaHubba!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> One Two Three... shall we laugh again?
> I know you were "signed off" while we laughed the last time... how did you do that, by the way? I would love to be able to do that trick, be away from the site and yet talking to people through the site...
> 
> Are you calling that lovely woman a bottom feeder? Tsk Tsk


 :thumbup:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

So that's how you see yourself? A large green man? Return the Giant to MN where he belongs. You are as sick as KPG. And it's Cheeky Blighter to you. Only my friends call me Cheeks which is a term of endearment from them to me. Guess you wouldn't know what that meant would you? TBBC POTYT


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

rocky1991 said:


> How many others of that time claimed the same?


What is interesting is that nobody looks at all of those who claim today to be God or the Son of God to see if they got those prophecies wrong.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> You know I think Cheeky B Lightweight is right...from now on the pup is Hubba ... and dh is HubbaHubba!


So if you think you are a large green man does that mean you are not a woman or do you have a gender identity problem. There is surgery for that now and it is highly successful. You can be who you truly are.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> So if you think you are a large green man does that mean you are not a woman or do you have a gender identity problem. There is surgery for that now and it is highly successful. You can be who you truly are.


And what kind of surgery can turn a shapeless pot back into something resembling a woman...that is IF you are a woman.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Many...only Jesus is the truth!


How would you know? There are many stories about god and his son and they all predate Jesus. You choose to believe that but it doesn't make it a fact. The reason your religion says you have to accept it on faith is because it can't be proved. Jesus may have lived and been a good man but nothing more. There have been many prophets that have come to people all over the world and they are all just as legitimate as he is. If you even attempted to live as he did you would be light years ahead of where you are now and so much kinder.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> How would you know? There are many stories about god and his son and they all predate Jesus. You choose to believe that but it doesn't make it a fact. The reason your religion says you have to accept it on faith is because it can't be proved. Jesus may have lived and been a good man but nothing more. There have been many prophets that have come to people all over the world and they are all just as legitimate as he is. If you even attempted to live as he did you would be light years ahead of where you are now and so much kinder.


False prophets, every one, designed to steal your inheritance.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Cheeky...lets make a deal.
I'll remove the Green Giant, what will you do?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> And what kind of surgery can turn a shapeless pot back into something resembling a woman...that is IF you are a woman.


It's obvious that you have a real problem. You do not know Cheeky. You have no idea what she looks like, and to infer that she is as shapeless as her avatar is so far off the mark.
Keep trying, but you will find that when it comes to the garbage you spew, she is no lightweight. She has a brilliant mind and is way above your league.
I think the JGG is the best look you have put forward so far, however he does belong in the Valley.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> What is interesting is that nobody looks at all of those who claim today to be God or the Son of God to see if they got those prophecies wrong.


Best to let those sleeping dogs lie.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> It's obvious that you have a real problem. You do not know Cheeky. You have no idea what she looks like, and to infer that she is as shapeless as her avatar is so far of the mark.
> Keep trying,but you will find that when it comes to the garbage you spew, she is no lightweight.
> I think the JGG is the best look you have put forward so far, however he does belong in the Valley.


Oh she can say I must look like my avatar but I cant say she must look like hers? That's critical thinking.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Cheeky...if I take down the Giant will you say "thank you". I'll do it if you will.

nevermind...I'll do it anyway


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Goodnight


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> And what kind of surgery can turn a shapeless pot back into something resembling a woman...that is IF you are a woman.


She is!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Goodnight


Good riddance!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> And what kind of surgery can turn a shapeless pot back into something resembling a woman...that is IF you are a woman.


Sad that you do not have any aesthetic sense or you would not see a shapeless pot. You would see a work of art. I am human and happy with myself and from time to time I will change my avatar. Usually what I select does have some significance to me so I thought the Giant may have a special meaning to you. I just know what the Giant means to MN and you certainly don't embody any of his qualities but I will let it go as you are not a significant personage in my life. That's the only deal you will get from me.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Sad that you do not have any aesthetic sense or you would not see a shapeless pot. You would see a work of art. I am human and happy with myself and from time to time I will change my avatar. Usually what I select does have some significance to me so I thought the Giant may have a special meaning to you. I just know what the Giant means to MN and you certainly don't embody any of his qualities but I will let it go as you are not a significant personage in my life. That's the only deal you will get from me.


These people seem to be taking this much too seriously, isn't this free time and meant for amusement?


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Goodnight


Must be the witching hour.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> Many...only Jesus is the truth!


Jesus may be the truth, but your blasphemous version of him is not.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> These people seem to be taking this much too seriously, isn't this free time and meant for amusement?


I agree, this should be fun. When it becomes work it's time to call it a night. I can get caught up in all the politics and religion and then I need to do a reality check or one of my friends will bail me out. 
It will really get interesting this fall.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> And what kind of surgery can turn a shapeless pot back into something resembling a woman...that is IF you are a woman.


Says the "gal" who's family picture could've been of the winner and 3 runner ups from a Transvestite Bea Arthur Impersonation convention!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> Jesus may be the truth, but your blasphemous version of him is not.


VocalLisa are you Shirley Temple or Judy Garland? I can't figure it out. I thought Judy Garland was too obvious so my next guess was Shirley Temple as I heard she died today and I thought maybe it was a tribute to her.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

maysmom said:


> I guess they never hear of the "naughty Bibles" that were King James Bibles of 1611 that landed a lot of people in hot water for accidentally leaving out the "not" in "thou shall not commit adultery".
> 
> LK, maybe the copiers left out the "not" specifically for King James, lol.


 :lol:


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I agree, this should be fun. When it becomes work it's time to call it a night. I can get caught up in all the politics and religion and then I need to do a reality check or one of my friends will bail me out.
> It will really get interesting this fall.


Speaking of politics, how about that passage of the debt ceiling bill in the House today?
Who would have thought that Speaker Boehner would actually do that? Despite the whiny azz little speech, he got it through.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> VocalLisa are you Shirley Temple or Judy Garland? I can't figure it out. I thought Judy Garland was too obvious so my next guess was Shirley Temple as I heard she died today and I thought maybe it was a tribute to her.


No, evidently I'm "Jody" Garland.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> False prophets, every one, designed to steal your inheritance.


If the term "takes one to know one" ever applied (_although 'prophet' is used ironically_), it does here.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

lovethelake said:


> What do you expect from someone that worships Oz and lives in Obamaville


Given the type of people that hail from such a place, that's a HELL of a lot better than having lived in Coatesville. That's for sure.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Speaking of politics, how about that passage of the debt ceiling bill in the House today?
> Who would have thought that Speaker Boehner would actually do that? Despite the whiny azz little speech, he got it through.


I was pleased. Maybe Boehner has seen the light? No that's not it. :?


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> No, evidently I'm "Jody" Garland.


Oh, that Garland. Did you know Judy was from MN too. Just like the giant and me and Patty. Are you Bea Arthur now?


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Oh, that Garland. Did you know Judy was from MN too. Just like the giant and me and Patty. Are you Bea Arthur now?


Bea Arthur was great, I think she may have been related to Gers, she had a caca mouth too.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Bea Arthur was great, I think she may have been related to Gers, she had a caca mouth too.


Yes, she was a very funny woman and she did have a potty mouth but I found it part of her charm. She was one of the first women on TV who broke the mold and I loved her for it.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> Given the type of people that hail from such a place, that's a HELL of a lot better than having lived in Coatesville. That's for sure.


Are you talking about Coatesville, PA? Some terrible stuff happened there.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> PP, according to a Jewish in-law, Jewis scholars will argue incessantly about the meanings of writing in the Torah. It's
> fundie Christians who believe in absolute inerrancy of the Bible, and it has to be the King James version.
> Serious scholars will learn Aramaic and/or Greek in order to read the Bible at its most authentic meaning.


Jewish scholars will argue incessantly about anything period. As the old joke goes, when you have three Jews together, you get four different opinions.

I didn't know fundies insisted on the King James version. It's very literary. Do they care?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Careful, you'll seriously annoy Odin, the Dagda, and is it Osirus?(I forget, there are so many!)


Ooh, who's the Dagda? I never heard of him.

But the Flying Spaghetti Monster said it was okay to thank Zeus.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> I just about die laughing when people talk about that best interpretation, The King James Bible, that is inerrant. I guess they never hear of the "naughty Bibles" that were King James Bibles of 1611 that landed a lot of people in hot water for accidentally leaving out the "not" in "thou shall not commit adultery". :lol:


I'm learning a lot tonight. Thanks for that.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Thou doth protesteth too much


You call yourself a wordsmith? Please. You're murdering the language of Shakespeare.

Yeah, yeah, I know, you're not talking to me. Too bad. Once again, if you want privacy, use PMs.


----------



## GrannyGoode (Oct 9, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Add me to that. There is only one God one Jesus and one Holy Spirit.
> 
> No matter what one has to say about the Bible it is God inpired words may have changed as each race had a different language. But the words still remain true. If this were not so how could the Bible have servived after 2,000 years.
> 
> ...


Please add my faith to your own and joeysomma as well.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

My daughter just emailed me about the ACA,

There were people at the statehouse today telling their success stories. (I think it was at the statehouse. somewhere local w/lawmakers) One they showed on the news was a women whose dad had cancer & so she grew up learning about how the insurance companies wouldn't cover her dad/family & dropped them etc. She has breast cancer now & was only able to get insurance because of Obamacare. And, she said "I'm a Republican." 

Another man whose wife has cancer said that his insurance would have been over $1300/month but with Obamacare it's $480


----------



## GrannyGoode (Oct 9, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The only separation of church and state in the constitution was to keep the government out of the Church. It has been reversed in the last 60+ years. Now it is specifically to keep any semblance of Christianity out of anything public. Islam is welcomed in Schools and public buildings. If it was not, why would they build prayer rooms for Muslims?


Historically accurate in every word.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Many...only Jesus is the truth!


In your opinion.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Ooh, who's the Dagda? I never heard of him.
> 
> But the Flying Spaghetti Monster said it was okay to thank Zeus.


The Dagda is the Zeus of Irish/Celtic mythology.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Jewish scholars will argue incessantly about anything period. As the old joke goes, when you have three Jews together, you get four different opinions.
> 
> I didn't know fundies insisted on the King James version. It's very literary. Do they care?


Oh, that was the ONLY true bible when I was growing up. My sister was going to a fundie church a few years ago and it was still the only true bible. I was amused when I read a book and then researched a bit about the writing of the Bible and found out that King James (who actually is in my ancestry line.. Just a bit of unrelated knowledge, lol) had given orders that the Bible interpretation was to make it clear that the king was the head person. He did that to hopefully settle the who Protestant/catholic argument that had disturbed Henry the VIII, Edward tudor, Mary Tudor, and Elizabeth I's reign.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Must be the witching hour.


Let's not denigrate the witches, lol!


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

maysmom said:


> Let's not denigrate the witches, lol!


 :lol:


----------



## GrannyGoode (Oct 9, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> I know what versions I read, and study, and they're not the Catholic Duoay nor the Later Day Saints...and I don't have to prove it to you.


The Latter-day Saints use the King James Version (KJV) of the Holy Bible.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Many people don't consider Mormons to be Christians.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> I never have liked shopping though, so that may be why I don't understand. I was literally a "decide what you want, walk in the store and get it, and walk out" type of person. I do admit though that I have stayed for a bit in the yarn department to feel the yarns and ponder on what to get for a project. But then I usually only go in when I need something for a project. I'm weird, I'll admit it


I also do not like to shop. I pretty much do it all on line except groceries.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> Oh, that was the ONLY true bible when I was growing up. My sister was going to a fundie church a few years ago and it was still the only true bible. I was amused when I read a book and then researched a bit about the writing of the Bible and found out that King James (who actually is in my ancestry line.. Just a bit of unrelated knowledge, lol) had given orders that the Bible interpretation was to make it clear that the king was the head person. He did that to hopefully settle the who Protestant/catholic argument that had disturbed Henry the VIII, Edward tudor, Mary Tudor, and Elizabeth I's reign.


If he's in your ancestry line, does that mean you're a descendant? Or just a multi-great niece?Is this the one who was James VI of Scotland and James II of England (or do I have that mixed up)? <Just checked Wikipedia, and I was close but no cigar: J VI of Scotland and J I of England and Ireland.> No matter how far back you go, politics and religion are entwined.


----------



## GrannyGoode (Oct 9, 2011)

"Many people" are mistaken.



maysmom said:


> Many people don't consider Mormons to be Christians.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Ive been following this thread, and I was hopeful of being engaged, truly engaged in meaningful debate and to even learn something (I dont live in the USA). Unfortunately that hasnt been the case by and large. So Im given to understand the following:

The Democrats hate the Republicans and the Republicans hate the Democrats.

The Democrats believe in pro-choice and the Republicans believe in pro-life.

The Democrats love President Obama and his health care policy and the Republicans hate President Obama and his health care policy.

The Democrats have moderate Christians in their ranks and the Republicans have Christian Fundamentalists in their ranks.
Some posters are highly intelligent and other posters are stupid, delusional, evil, ludicrous etc.

However, 
most of you have painted an example of extremely poor citizenship. 

And that ladies, is very sad. The elementary school mentality in which you have engaged each other is at best, pathetic and at worst, highly embarrassing and irrevocable (for you). 

I cant imagine I will look at any of your future posts with any respect. I have seen the same behaviour of most of you on other threads too and quite frankly, for elder ladies, I would have expected far better behaviour.

Now, the usual suspects i.e., ye olde dame and ye olde purl may have another go at me and thats fine but I will continue to follow this thread to see just how far most of you will go to further muddy citizenship in ye olde US of A!!


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

GrannyGoode said:


> "Many people" are mistaken.


Oh, I'm very sure that many people are mistaken about many things...


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> Says the "gal" who's family picture could've been of the winner and 3 runner ups from a Transvestite Bea Arthur Impersonation convention!


WOW, when I thought you couldn't get more vulgar or nasty you spew out this filth. Can't make a point or have a conversation without being ugly? Someone really got under your skin, or revealed some ugly truth about you for you to lower yourself into that deeper sewer.

Need a ladder to attempt to crawl up to at least gutter level?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

GrannyGoode said:


> The Latter-day Saints use the King James Version (KJV) of the Holy Bible.


They may call it St. James, it sure isn't the same. Check it out. There are chapter and verse that are the same and many that are different. 
I know because I studied with my daughter when she was interested in LDS.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> WOW, when I thought you couldn't get more vulgar or nasty you spew out this filth. Can't make a point or have a conversation without being ugly? Someone really got under your skin, or revealed some ugly truth about you for you to lower yourself into that deeper sewer.
> 
> Need a ladder to attempt to crawl up to at least gutter level?


Thanks for letting us know that you have a nice fresh ladder waiting to get you out of the depths.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Thanks for letting us know that you have a nice fresh ladder waiting to get you out of the depths.


Good try. My ladder is safely stored in my garage just in case an Obamacultist decides to climb out of depths of victimology and would like to borrow it.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Janet Cooke said:


> Thanks for letting us know that you have a nice fresh ladder waiting to get you out of the depths.


Where have you been (other than right here all along)?

We all know LTL is always ready to help someone with a helping hand who cannot help her/himself.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Janet Cooke said:


> They may call it St. James, it sure isn't the same. Check it out. There are chapter and verse that are the same and many that are different.
> I know because I studied with my daughter when she was interested in LDS.


Who calls it St. James other than you?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

LTL; You missed it last night.

I just reviewed the posts from last night. There sure were a lot of them.

Amongst the posts Vocal Lisa revealed to us all that she is, in fact, Cheeky Blighter. 

I've noticed nine or ten distinct proofs of that fact in her own words. Amazing!

Perhaps I should roll them out as the Top 10 Lies of 2014 David Letterman style?

Wouldn't that be fun?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Janet Cooke said:


> Speaking of politics, how about that passage of the debt ceiling bill in the House today?
> Who would have thought that Speaker Boehner would actually do that?


I and any informed Republican or Independent voter had that thought.

Guess that leaves you out.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Are you talking about Coatesville, PA? Some terrible stuff happened there.


Don't bother with any more deflections, you've already told us all who you and Vocal Lisa are (the same person), much in the same way another idiot did (tell us her actual identity).

Besides, it wasn't as if we didn't know already or did care.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Are you talking about Coatesville, PA? Some terrible stuff happened there.


You really should stop talking to yourself, it isn't healthy.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

maysmom said:


> The Dagda is the Zeus of Irish/Celtic mythology.


Thank you for this.

Another faith heard from! Irish/Celtic mythology and so many mentions on the Mormon faith which I introduced with a quote from Glenn Beck awhile ago.

Can we get a shout out from a Jehovah Witness?

Rocky1991 and maysmom will be soooooo happy that so many faiths have been mentioned. NOT

Get ready for rocky to tell us all to stop preaching, thumping or mentioning sooooo many different points of view and beliefs. 

BTW: pacifists, witches, Wiccans have all been mentioned often too, but for some reason, rocky doesn't bring them up for critique. I think it may because they aren't "religions?" So strange  or maybe just "cherry picking" on her part.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

GrannyGoode said:


> "Many people" are mistaken.


 :thumbup:


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Ive been following this thread, and I was hopeful of being engaged, truly engaged in meaningful debate and to even learn something (I dont live in the USA). Unfortunately that hasnt been the case by and large. So Im given to understand the following:
> 
> The Democrats hate the Republicans and the Republicans hate the Democrats.
> 
> ...


Wombat - your summary is fun and somewhat accurate, but unfortunately is riddled with many inaccurate statements. I'll not bore you with the details and corrections, nor try to change your mind.

Thanks for speaking your piece. It is always nice to hear from those who aren't citizens of the USA. You have an awesome country yourself (I assume you are an Aussie).


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> LTL; You missed it last night.
> 
> I just reviewed the posts from last night. There sure were a lot of them.
> 
> ...


Rats, I missed all of that. I was at church.
I think you have under estimated the number. Too many choices to limit yourself to 10


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Rats, I missed all of that. I was at church.
> I think you have under estimated the number. Too many choices to limit yourself to 10


I'll send the Top 10 List to you then!

Cannot say "another voice heard from" 'cause it was just the same old voice *again* just in a different costume, taking curtain calls.

Vanity is an evil.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

If they prefer King James with its language, they should realize that translation may have taken license to create its lyric qualities. Very dangerous to take every line as Gospel Truth. IMHO



Poor Purl said:


> Jewish scholars will argue incessantly about anything period. As the old joke goes, when you have three Jews together, you get four different opinions.
> 
> I didn't know fundies insisted on the King James version. It's very literary. Do they care?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You call yourself a wordsmith? Please. You're murdering the language of Shakespeare.
> 
> Yeah, yeah, I know, you're not talking to me. Too bad. Once again, if you want privacy, use PMs.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks mom. I learned a new one too.



maysmom said:


> The Dagda is the Zeus of Irish/Celtic mythology.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

"Very interesting." Arte Johnson



Lkholcomb said:


> Oh, that was the ONLY true bible when I was growing up. My sister was going to a fundie church a few years ago and it was still the only true bible. I was amused when I read a book and then researched a bit about the writing of the Bible and found out that King James (who actually is in my ancestry line.. Just a bit of unrelated knowledge, lol) had given orders that the Bible interpretation was to make it clear that the king was the head person. He did that to hopefully settle the who Protestant/catholic argument that had disturbed Henry the VIII, Edward tudor, Mary Tudor, and Elizabeth I's reign.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Wombat - your summary is fun and somewhat accurate, but unfortunately is riddled with many inaccurate statements. I'll not bore you with the details and corrections, nor try to change your mind.
> 
> Thanks for speaking your piece. It is always nice to hear from those who aren't citizens of the USA. You have an awesome country yourself (I assume you are an Aussie).


I disagee, KPG, I think Wombatnomore was spot on. I for one admit to being more than just a little bit snarky. However, I think we can all agree with her on her final sentence: 
"Now, the usual suspects i.e., ye olde dame and ye olde purl may have another go at me and thats fine but I will continue to follow this thread to see just how far most of you will go to further muddy citizenship in ye olde US of A!!"

N'est-ce pas?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Add me to your group. A salesperson once told me that I shop like a man. Get just what you need; in & out fast. And I wasn't insulted, although I think that's how it was meant. Now YARN is a very different matter.



NJG said:


> I also do not like to shop. I pretty much do it all on line except groceries.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

There is a danger in getting your information from just a few. The result is simplistic stereotypes yielding nothing. There is more going on here than meets the eye.



Wombatnomore said:


> Ive been following this thread, and I was hopeful of being engaged, truly engaged in meaningful debate and to even learn something (I dont live in the USA). Unfortunately that hasnt been the case by and large. So Im given to understand the following:
> 
> The Democrats hate the Republicans and the Republicans hate the Democrats.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Hard to argue with that.



maysmom said:


> Oh, I'm very sure that many people are mistaken about many things...


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> I disagee, KPG, I think Wombatnomore was spot on. I for one admit to being more than just a little bit snarky. However, I think we can all agree with her on her final sentence:
> "Now, the usual suspects i.e., ye olde dame and ye olde purl may have another go at me and thats fine but I will continue to follow this thread to see just how far most of you will go to further muddy citizenship in ye olde US of A!!"
> 
> N'est-ce pas?


Mornin' Gerslay. Nope, I'll disagree with *you*! 

I know Reps do not hate Dems or Obama (the ones I know she was referred to, anyway). Also I do not believe most of my friends with whom I agree have painted themselves as poor representations of citizens of the USA. Other points, too, but that is the gist of my opinion to her opinion!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> Thanks for letting us know that you have a nice fresh ladder waiting to get you out of the depths.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

GrannyGoode. Not reading closely?



knitpresentgifts said:


> Who calls it St. James other than you?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

damemary said:


> There is a danger in getting your information from just a few. The result is simplistic stereotypes yielding nothing. There is more going on here than meets the eye.


Simplistic is surely the word for it. 
LOL, who LOVES President Obama? The poor man doesn't make anyone happy that I can see. 
One should certainly not judge how Dems and Reps feel about one another from this site or any other, for that matter.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

damemary said:


> GrannyGoode. Not reading closely?


*You* are not reading closely. WAKE UP!

I'm not GrannyGoode (even though you addressed me as such) and no one other than Janet Cooke'd said St. James.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh please enlighten us O wise one (in your own mind.) We await the results of your research. Okay, my sarcasm is showing, but I'd really love to know why you think Cheeky Blighter and Vocal Lisa are one and the same.



knitpresentgifts said:


> LTL; You missed it last night.
> 
> I just reviewed the posts from last night. There sure were a lot of them.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

If you don't care, why keep bringing it up?



knitpresentgifts said:


> Don't bother with any more deflections, you've already told us all who you and Vocal Lisa are (the same person), much in the same way another idiot did (tell us her actual identity).
> 
> Besides, it wasn't as if we didn't know already or did care.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> *You* are not reading closely. WAKE UP!
> 
> I'm not GrannyGoode (even though you addressed me as such) and no one other than Janet Cooke'd said St. James.


Ummmm.....check page 105 for GrannyGoode's comment


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

"Vanity is an evil." From KPG! Add this to the Top 10 List of Extremely Funny Quotes from KPG.



knitpresentgifts said:


> I'll send the Top 10 List to you then!
> 
> Cannot say "another voice heard from" 'cause it was just the same old voice *again* just in a different costume, taking curtain calls.
> 
> Vanity is an evil.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> WOW, when I thought you couldn't get more vulgar or nasty you spew out this filth. Can't make a point or have a conversation without being ugly? Someone really got under your skin, or revealed some ugly truth about you for you to lower yourself into that deeper sewer.
> 
> Need a ladder to attempt to crawl up to at least gutter level?


lovethelake
glad to know that you have the equipment to step up into a nicer world, now use it.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> "Vanity is an evil." From KPG! Add this to the Top 10 List of Extremely Funny Quotes from KPG.


damemary
so why is KPG so vain about her (?) locks?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Although I have to admit to being behind on reading this thread, I remember that "someone" scolded "someone" for speaking ill of the Santorum family. It sure took a lot of chutzpah to make that accusation when one doesn't have to look very far to see the righties still calling our first family by every nasty, denigrating name in the book. I love the way these Christians show their Christ-like behavior. What was that acronym? Something about "Christian in name only?" I just love the way they proselytize!! They lead by example.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I would never address you as either 'granny' or 'goode.' Janet was answering a post of GrannyGoode who stated that LDS uses King James Bible.

Did you just make several errors? I think so. Apology forthcoming???? or excuses to try to confuse the issue? Stay tuned.



knitpresentgifts said:


> *You* are not reading closely. WAKE UP!
> 
> I'm not GrannyGoode (even though you addressed me as such) and no one other than Janet Cooke'd said St. James.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Good morning Huck and Damemary. Good to see you.
I'm off to the gym, but I'll see you later.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Mornin' Gerslay. Nope, I'll disagree with *you*!
> 
> I know Reps do not hate Dems or Obama (the ones I know she was referred to, anyway). Also I do not believe most of my friends with whom I agree have painted themselves as poor representations of citizens of the USA. Other points, too, but that is the gist of my opinion to her opinion!


KPG
I see you are visiting the library. Your copying is a giveaway.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cindy, do you think an apology or some convoluted excuses will be forthcoming?



Cindy S said:


> Ummmm.....check page 105 for GrannyGoode's comment


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> damemary
> so why is KPG so vain about her (?) locks?


I have no idea, considering that hair is something everyone can grow.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Mornin' Gerslay. Nope, I'll disagree with *you*!
> 
> I know Reps do not hate Dems or Obama (the ones I know she was referred to, anyway). Also I do not believe most of my friends with whom I agree have painted themselves as poor representations of citizens of the USA. Other points, too, but that is the gist of my opinion to her opinion!


 Mornin!

I agree, I don't hate Obama either, in fact I think he has many fine qualities, especially being a good husband and father. I do, however, as a conservative hate his policies. Vehemently!

I don't know Wombat...is she painting us all (Left and Right) with one brush or was she trying to be fair-handed?

:-D


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's not a fact, only her opinion. And in her opinion it's the only one that counts. And her looks are not a topic for discussion. I just had breakfast.

Top of the morning, Huck.



Huckleberry said:


> damemary
> so why is KPG so vain about her (?) locks?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Good to see you Al.



alcameron said:


> Although I have to admit to being behind on reading this thread, I remember that "someone" scolded "someone" for speaking ill of the Santorum family. It sure took a lot of chutzpah to make that accusation when one doesn't have to look very far to see the righties still calling our first family by every nasty, denigrating name in the book. I love the way these Christians show their Christ-like behavior. What was that acronym? Something about "Christian in name only?" I just love the way they proselytize!! They lead by example.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

alcameron said:


> I have no idea, considering that hair is something everyone can grow.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: Tell that to the bald man. Is that what's beneath that wig?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

damemary said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: Tell that to the bald man. Is that what's beneath that wig?


OK, hair is something ALMOST anyone can grow.
Latergator


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

GrannyGoode said:


> Historically accurate in every word.


GrannyGoode
wrong, totally wrong my dear. Check it out.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Love your hairy little avatar.



alcameron said:


> OK, hair is something ALMOST anyone can grow.
> Latergator


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

damemary said:


> I would never address you as either 'granny' or 'goode.' Janet was answering a post of GrannyGoode who stated that LDS uses King James Bible.


Janet, was responding to GG who *did* say, "King James."

HOWEVER, Janet, and all the Libs who weighed in with their empty heads, don't know the difference between "king" and "saint." I only pointed that out to Janet BECAUSE they are different words with different meanings.

NONE of the Libs who jumped in to insult me, understood what they read. Must be something in the Kool Aid you all drink.

*You determined I cannot understand or read carefully. You lied about what GG said, and don't comprehend what you read.
* I said no one other than Janet said "saint."
* Cindy S implied I was in error and to re-read GG's comment as if I didn't understand it the first time. (It was Cindy who also didn't understand GG's comment.)

In chronological order, beginning from page 105.

to everyone reading after Gerslay's comment:


GrannyGoode said:


> The Latter-day Saints use the King James Version (KJV) of the Holy Bible.


reply to GrannyGoode


Janet Cooke said:


> They may call it St. James, it sure isn't the same. Check it out. There are chapter and verse that are the same and many that are different.
> I know because I studied with my daughter when she was interested in LDS.


to Janet Cooke


knitpresentgifts said:


> Who calls it St. James other than you?


Damemary to KPG:


damemary said:


> GrannyGoode.* Not reading closely?


reply to Damemary


knitpresentgifts said:


> *You* are not reading closely. WAKE UP!
> 
> I'm not GrannyGoode (even though you addressed me as such) and no one other than Janet Cooke'd said St. James.


to KPG:


Cindy S said:


> Ummmm.....check page 105 for GrannyGoode's comment


to KPG


damemary said:


> Did you just make several errors? I think so. Apology forthcoming???? or excuses to try to confuse the issue? Stay tuned.


I made one tiny error. I wrote that you addressed me as GG. I read a PERIOD as a COMMA* when you addressed your post to me. No apology is warranted. I hurt no one.

No excuses either, I admit what I did. Other than saying you addressed me as GG, I made no errors.

Let's see who, if any of the Libs who made an error of her own admits it, including you.

I'll stay tuned.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> damemary
> so why is KPG so vain about her (?) locks?


We've already gone over this. It isn't me who is vain about her hair, it most certainly was you and Janet Cooke and others who bragged about her hair; I proved it too.

Get over yourself, it isn't becoming on you either.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

damemary said:


> Cindy, do you think an apology or some convoluted excuses will be forthcoming?


I'm wondering the same.  Are either of you going to apologize or admit your error?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The one-word answer is excuses.



knitpresentgifts said:


> I made one tiny error. I wrote that you addressed me as GG. I read a PERIOD as a COMMA* when you addressed your post to me. No apology is warranted. I hurt no one.
> 
> No excuses either, I admit what I did. Other than saying you addressed me as GG, I made no errors.
> 
> ...


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> What lies?


joeysomma
too late to bring you up to date. Go back to your Cave.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm wondering the same. Are either of you going to apologize or admit your error?


knitpreentgifts
please make at least a little effort to mature. You are in dire need of it.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> We've already gone over this. It isn't me who is vain about her hair, it most certainly was you and Janet Cooke and others who bragged about her hair; I proved it too.
> 
> Get over yourself, it isn't becoming on you either.


knitpresentgifts
Grow up at least a little bit, it would be suitable for your age.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I made one tiny error. I wrote that you addressed me as GG. I read a PERIOD as a COMMA* when you addressed your post to me. No apology is warranted. I hurt no one.
> 
> No excuses either, I admit what I did. Other than saying you addressed me as GG, I made no errors.
> 
> ...


knitpresentgifts
got too much time on your hands? Do some volunteer work.
Start with taking Patients to physical therapy. Should do you some good.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm wondering the same. Are either of you going to apologize or admit your error?


knitpresengift
why don't you start, there is much in your past and present to apologize for.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Good suggestion. I wish something would give her an idea of perspective.



Huckleberry said:


> knitpresentgifts
> got too much time on your hands? Do some volunteer work.
> Start with taking Patients to physical therapy. Should do you some good.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> The one-word answer is excuses.


So true, Dame. I think a certain hairy old bat needs to de-ice her wings--she's crashing into walls now.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> So true, Dame. I think a certain hairy old bat needs to de-ice her wings--she's crashing into walls now.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Oh the visual!!! Thanks.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> If he's in your ancestry line, does that mean you're a descendant? Or just a multi-great niece?Is this the one who was James VI of Scotland and James II of England (or do I have that mixed up)? <Just checked Wikipedia, and I was close but no cigar: J VI of Scotland and J I of England and Ireland.> No matter how far back you go, politics and religion are entwined.


We both share Queen Consort Anabella of Scotland, wife of King Robert III of Scotland as am ancestor 

So I misspoke (sorry I had a wicked migraine). We both share an ancestry line.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think we have another Empress, this time royalty indeed.



Lkholcomb said:


> We both share Queen Consort Anabella of Scotland, wife of King Robert III of Scotland as am ancestor
> 
> So I misspoke (sorry I had a wicked migraine). We both share an ancestry line.


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Thank you for this.
> 
> Another faith heard from! Irish/Celtic mythology and so many mentions on the Mormon faith which I introduced with a quote from Glenn Beck awhile ago.
> 
> ...


My step children are Wiccans, wonderful, lovely, kind an gentle, yet they o not proselytize. I suppose you Christians take the prize for bible beating and thumping, yaaaaaay Christians!! Who would critique a pacifist? I agree with them.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Thank you for this.
> 
> Another faith heard from! Irish/Celtic mythology and so many mentions on the Mormon faith which I introduced with a quote from Glenn Beck awhile ago.
> 
> ...


Wicca is definately a religion, in fact one that is now recognized by the government and those in the service who die can get a Wiccan symbol on their grave marker as other religions have for a while. It's not a religion I practice, but one I have researched into in the past (as I have a lot of different religions).


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> We both share Queen Consort Anabella of Scotland, wife of King Robert III of Scotland as am ancestor
> 
> So I misspoke (sorry I had a wicked migraine). We both share an ancestry line.


I'm impressed, whether or not you misspoke. My family tree doesn't go back beyond my great-grandparents. Jews in 19th century eastern Europe didn't keep good records.

My husband's family claims an ancestor who was a well-know rabbi. I claim a bottle of borsht.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> I think we have another Empress, this time royalty indeed.


All hail Empress Lk! She needs a tiara, simple but elegant, like Lk.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm impressed, whether or not you misspoke. My family tree doesn't go back beyond my great-grandparents. Jews in 19th century eastern Europe didn't keep good records.
> 
> My husband's family claims an ancestor who was a well-know rabbi. I claim a bottle of borsht.


That's the good part of having royalty or titled people in your background, they kept good records, lol. My son had to look at it for boy scouts and my family had records of that line back to the 1300's I think. My husband's family beat that with records back to the 1100's.

I totally understand Jews not keeping records in the 19th century in eastern Europe. It's so sad when so much hate causes so much (justified) fear.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> All hail Empress Lk! She needs a tiara, simple but elegant, like Lk.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Oh, that Garland. Did you know Judy was from MN too. Just like the giant and me and Patty. Are you Bea Arthur now?


Well, I figured since there's a Bea Arthur impersonator in our midst, I figured a picture of the real deal would be apropos.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Janet Cooke said:


> Bea Arthur was great, I think she may have been related to Gers, she had a caca mouth too.


Oh yeah, I think Bea could throw a few word bombs around. However, she knew how to use 'em in a humorous way, somehow it didn't come off as mean, tacky and low class as our own Carolina Coprologist.

I guess when she asked herself "WWJD", the answer her little brain came up with was "cuss".


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Are you talking about Coatesville, PA? Some terrible stuff happened there.


Yep.

What kind of stuff happened?


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

NJG said:


> My daughter just emailed me about the ACA,
> 
> There were people at the statehouse today telling their success stories. (I think it was at the statehouse. somewhere local w/lawmakers) One they showed on the news was a women whose dad had cancer & so she grew up learning about how the insurance companies wouldn't cover her dad/family & dropped them etc. She has breast cancer now & was only able to get insurance because of Obamacare. And, she said "I'm a Republican."
> 
> Another man whose wife has cancer said that his insurance would have been over $1300/month but with Obamacare it's $480


Yup. The difference between these stories and the "horror" stories that FauxNews likes to tell, is that when these stories are researched for their veracity, they turn out to be true.

It was embarassing watching FauxNews search desperate for people being "harmed" by ObamaCare. Like the guy who claimed Obamacare wouldn't cover his baby daughter, turned out to be a complete and total lie.

Same thing with the couple who said they had to lay people off because of Obamacare. Only problem was that they only had a few employees and therefore they were not at ALL effected by Obamacare.

So either they lied about having to lay people off, or they did and people lost their jobs because they were so stupid, they just fired people without having bothered to look into the FACTS of the matter.

Story after story turned out that way. People who said that Obamacare was more expensive... and then a reporter would call up, get their info and it would be discovered that actually, they'd be paying MUCH less than they thought.

FauxNews desperately TRIED, but couldn't actually find anyone being harmed by Obamacare as they claimed it would.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Thank you for this.
> 
> Another faith heard from! Irish/Celtic mythology and so many mentions on the Mormon faith which I introduced with a quote from Glenn Beck awhile ago.
> 
> ...


And just what is your point here? Would you like to make up an A to Z list of religions of the world? Here's "Anabaptist" for "A" and "Zoroastrian" for "Z"


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

GrannyGoode said:


> Historically accurate in every word.


Oh bull. Unlike Gers, the forefathers were ACTUALLY wordsmiths.

If they JUST were concerned about keeping government out of Church and not vice versa, they would've literally said that.

Such as literally saying a separation of State FROM church.

Being lawyers, many of them, the forefathers used the legal concept called the "Arm's Length Principle". Which means that two entities that may have overlapping interests, _are required to keep an "arm's length" away from EACH OTHER._. They BOTH have the legal obligation to stay out of each other's business.

Besides, you're stupid if you don't understand that when Church becomes connected to Government, _BY DEFAULT_, because not everyone is of the same Church, that's putting State into _someone's_ Church.

If the Forefathers wanted us to be a sorta, kinda theocracy, they would've designed it that way. But they self-evidently didn't.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

I'm honored, VocalLisa, you just can't seem to stop talking about me!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

We'll just let that sink in for a while.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Coatesville has a shameful past...a lynching of an innocent black man in 1911. An atrocity that should not be discussed unless it is with the utmost respect for the victim, Zachariah Walker.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm wondering the same. Are either of you going to apologize or admit your error?


Apologize for what?


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

damemary said:


> Cindy, do you think an apology or some convoluted excuses will be forthcoming?


not wasting my time waiting!!!


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Although I have to admit to being behind on reading this thread, I remember that "someone" scolded "someone" for speaking ill of the Santorum family. It sure took a lot of chutzpah to make that accusation when one doesn't have to look very far to see the righties still calling our first family by every nasty, denigrating name in the book. I love the way these Christians show their Christ-like behavior. What was that acronym? Something about "Christian in name only?" I just love the way they proselytize!! They lead by example.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Well said.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> I'm honored, VocalLisa, you just can't seem to stop talking about me!


And vice versa sweetie.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Are you talking about Coatesville, PA? Some terrible stuff happened there.


Yes, for instance, it should be noted that it was the citizens of Coatsville, that shoved him back into the pyre with pitchforks and rakes. In otherwords, it wasn't just an ignorant few who did this, but it was the nature of the people from that town that give it such an awful name.

Seems like it was a particularly hateful and bigoted enclave. And sadly, that kind of ignorance and bigotry doesn't die away within just one generation. Although, Coatsville is changing as many of those TYPE people tend to move to the south where that kind of thinking is more accepted nowadays.

You know, the kind of person that doesn't know why "The Help" was a racist book/movie.

Gers might find it interesting that I've been to both Kennett Square, PA and the "Bubbling Brook" in Westwood, MA and one of my FAVORITE things is Fried Clams WITH the bellies!


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Huckleberry said:


> damemary
> so why is KPG so vain about her (?) locks?


You noticed that too, ha?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

maysmom said:


> And just what is your point here? Would you like to make up an A to Z list of religions of the world? Here's "Anabaptist" for "A" and "Zoroastrian" for "Z"


The point is that rocky1991 will be very upset with all your talk about any religion or faith EXCEPT the Christian one.

Knock it off. (is what she'd say)


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> We'll just let that sink in for a while.


Nice, scary but understood. :thumbup:


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> Yes, for instance, it should be noted that it was the citizens of Coatsville, that shoved him back into the pyre with pitchforks and rakes. In otherwords, it wasn't just an ignorant few who did this, but it was the nature of the people from that town that give it such an awful name.
> 
> Seems like it was a particularly hateful and bigoted enclave. And sadly, that kind of ignorance and bigotry doesn't die away within just one generation. Although, Coatsville is changing as many of those TYPE people tend to move to the south where that kind of thinking is more accepted nowadays.
> 
> ...


You is kind, you is smart, you is important...

I think I love you!

It was the clams with the bellies that did it...you're my kind of gal!


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Don't bother with any more deflections, you've already told us all who you and Vocal Lisa are (the same person), much in the same way another idiot did (tell us her actual identity).
> 
> Besides, it wasn't as if we didn't know already or did care.





> Amongst the posts Vocal Lisa revealed to us all that she is, in fact, Cheeky Blighter.
> 
> I've noticed nine or ten distinct proofs of that fact in her own words. Amazing!
> 
> ...


I missed this, I revealed I'm Cheeky? Where did I do that? And what are these "proofs" that you're referring to?

Honest to God, you have my permission to ask Admin to check to see if Cheeky and I are the same. I promise you, we're not.

But, I dunno, it's tough convincing those prone to conspiracy theories to get past their fantasy thinking.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> Apologize for what?


Beats me. The Dame called for my head because I mistook a period for a comma.

What you and she did was far more egregious, so I called for both of yours.

You joined this 3-ring circus, I hope you can dance.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

knitpresentgifts said:


> The point is that rocky1991 will be very upset with all your talk about any religion or faith EXCEPT the Christian one.
> 
> Knock it off.


It's really only Christians and Muslims that have the proselytizing bug which is what makes it more offensive than other religions. The fact that it's right inside their dogma to disrespect and dishonor other religions and try to convert others to their religion.

So therefore, it's the Christian faith that will get backlash for that more than other religions if they are of the ilk of "saving souls" instead of helping the meek and the needy.

If you don't want to get more criticism than other religions, then maybe Fundie Christians need to stop being such bungholes.

I can't speak for Rocky, but I don't think Rocky is against someone personally having a faith if that's what they need. I would guess that Rocky's objections have mostly to do with the proselytizing nature of Christianity in the West and their extremely vein presumption that THEY are "right".

I'm not against Christianity either, as I was raised as a Christian. However, I am against what the RW has done to Christianity in THIS country and how ugly and hateful they've managed to make God seem. And to think, they think it's their "job" to spread their hateful understanding of God's word? .... they are WORTHY of disrespect.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Beats me. The Dame called for my head because I mistook a period for a comma.


Yup, you're ALWAYS making those "innocent mistakes".


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> I missed this, I revealed I'm Cheeky? Where did I do that? And what are these "proofs" that you're referring to?
> 
> Honest to God, you have my permission to ask Admin to check to see if Cheeky and I are the same. I promise you, we're not.
> 
> But, I dunno, it's tough convincing those prone to conspiracy theories to get past their fantasy thinking.


Conspiracy theory, you say. Must be a republican you are talking about. They love those things.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

There have been lots of conspiracy theories about Benghazi of course. Some of the latest I just read about Benghazi is this. 

House Government Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa said he could have flown commercial to Benghazi in time to stop the attack, so clearly Obama must have been covering something up. Lunatic Rep. Steve King (R-IA) said SEALs had been ordered to "stand down." And Fox repeated the stand down nonsense 85 times last summer.

The idea that the Obama administration somehow intentionally forced the slaughter of Americans is a crazy theory, but it's a key part of what has fueled all the GOP hysteria about Benghazi. Its centrality in the GOP narrative about Benghazi is what makes today's report surprising, because in the report House Republicans concede that the stand down cover-up theory is entirely without basis:
Republicans have released a report on Benghazi, and among their findings is this: The White House and State Department are responsible for having failed to adequately guarantee the security of the consulate there.
While the GOP lawmakers said that commanders could have pushed harder to position forces to respond to threats in North Africa in general and Libya in particular, they concluded that no U.S. military assets could have arrived in Benghazi in time to affect the outcome of the attack, according to committee staff members who briefed reporters on the report.

That, of course, is not a stunning revelation. Whenever something like Benghazi happens, it's the case that security should have been stronger. It almost goes without saying, because the mere fact that there was a successful attack is all the evidence you need to prove the point that security wasn't sufficient. It's also not politically controversial: The Obama administration has long since acknowledged that there should have been more security.

As I have asked before where were the republicans during the 13 attacks during the Bush administration? Never get an answer from republicans to that question. The thing is they say all these things that are lies, and then Fox news repeat them and everyone who listens to Fox believes it. But then listen the republicans become outraged that President Obama lied about "If you like your healthcare, you can keep it." They are such hypocrites.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Good grief...you people can't possibly be typing on your phones!


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> It's really only Christians and Muslims that have the proselytizing bug which is what makes it more offensive than other religions. The fact that it's right inside their dogma to disrespect and dishonor other religions and try to convert others to their religion.
> 
> So therefore, it's the Christian faith that will get backlash for that more than other religions if they are of the ilk of "saving souls" instead of helping the meek and the needy.
> 
> ...


Beautifully put. I'm sick to the back teeth of being threatened with hellfire and eternal damnation because I reject any notion of a supreme being. I'm here by accident, I do the best I can while I am here, and then I'm dead. That's enough for me.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> The point is that rocky1991 will be very upset with all your talk about any religion or faith EXCEPT the Christian one.
> 
> Knock it off. (is what she'd say)


If Rocky or anyone else will be upset with me then they can address me themselves. Am I correct to think that you aren't telling me to "knock it off?"


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> joeysomma
> too late to bring you up to date. Go back to your Cave.


My, my, Huckleberry, it appears you had your crabby apple cereal this morning. Maybe a gallon of prune juice would have been a better choice as it would flush the nasties out of your body. Such nasty posts following this one.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

From Jon Stewart:

For the Republican caucus to suggest that they will not entertain immigration reform because they don't trust this President to enforce the laws of the land is perhaps the greatest projection in the history of psychology. I give you this Republican Congress's record of enforcing enacted law.

DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST (12/13/2013): Republicans have voted 48 times to repeal Obamacare.

DAVE WEIGEL (11/2/2013): Republicans are going to keep maneuvering for ways to make the implementation of Obamacare hard.

JONATHAN KARL (7/21/2013): Republicans have spent two years blocking the nomination of Richard Cordray to run that consumer protection bureau.

CHRIS HAYES (10/21/2013): They vote to gut a major part of Dodd-Frank Wall Street reform.

JOE SCARBOROUGH (4/30/2012): The Republicans that have pushed a record number of filibusters.

NEWS REPORT (11/21/2013): Republicans continually blocked President Obama's executive and judicial nominations.

JEFFREY TOOBIN (1/31/2013): Republicans block appointments as matters of general principles.

What does this prove? Republicans are hypocrites.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

From Jon Stewart is that the best you can do?

You may not like what they have or have not done, but they have not broken any laws.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Rats, I missed all of that. I was at church.
> I think you have under estimated the number. Too many choices to limit yourself to 10


lovethelake
sure enjoy your admission that you are one of the churchrats.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

NJG said:


> From Jon Stewart:
> 
> For the Republican caucus to suggest that they will not entertain immigration reform because they don't trust this President to enforce the laws of the land is perhaps the greatest projection in the history of psychology. I give you this Republican Congress's record of enforcing enacted law.
> 
> ...


NJG
it actually proves that the Republicans are a scared bunch and march to the tune of a handful tuity fruities. Spineless creatures they have become.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

maysmom said:


> And just what is your point here? Would you like to make up an A to Z list of religions of the world? Here's "Anabaptist" for "A" and "Zoroastrian" for "Z"


maysmom
may we inform knitpresentgifts that there are more than 300 official Religions? It should keep her busy investigating all of them.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Beats me. The Dame called for my head because I mistook a period for a comma.
> 
> What you and she did was far more egregious, so I called for both of yours.
> 
> You joined this 3-ring circus, I hope you can dance.


Egregious? Not sure how you come to that conclusion about my post, it was not outrageous, gross or shocking, all I did was point out your error. To each their own as the saying goes.

I haven't joined any circus, but there is certainly a circus atmosphere at times, that I will agree with.

Edit: Forgot to say that if I had joined a 3 ring circus that would have put me on your side of this discussion!!!


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

rocky1991 said:


> My step children are Wiccans, wonderful, lovely, kind an gentle, yet they o not proselytize. I suppose you Christians take the prize for bible beating and thumping, yaaaaaay Christians!! Who would critique a pacifist? I agree with them.


rocky - I bet the righties don't know how many religions are recognized in out national cemeteries and that one of them is Wiccans who have the pentacle engraved on their stones as Christians can have a variety of crosses, Jews the Star of David and all the other wonderful religions around the world. The righties really have so little understanding outside of their very limited and insular worlds. To them it's still "the good old days" where the world made sense and black was black and white was white and everybody played by the rules.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> I'm not against Christianity either, as I was raised as a Christian. However, I am against what the RW has done to Christianity in THIS country and how ugly and hateful they've managed to make God seem. And to think, they think it's their "job" to spread their hateful understanding of God's word? .... they are WORTHY of disrespect.


Thank you VocalLisa(I know you aren't Cheeky)
I'm tired of the way certain "Christians" have hijacked the name and disregard Christ's precepts. And I'll get blasted once more for saying "negative things" about Christians on this (and other) threads who are barbaric when it comes to bullying, name-calling, general nastiness. They're sicky sweet when they talk to each other, but can't see their way, those good Christians, to say something civil to those who have different opinions. I can name one or two who treat people nicely, but the rest are downright vicious.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Fires in the underground coal mines burned for years and forced evacuation of the city.



VocalLisa said:


> Yep.
> 
> What kind of stuff happened?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put.



VocalLisa said:


> Yup. The difference between these stories and the "horror" stories that FauxNews likes to tell, is that when these stories are researched for their veracity, they turn out to be true.
> 
> It was embarassing watching FauxNews search desperate for people being "harmed" by ObamaCare. Like the guy who claimed Obamacare wouldn't cover his baby daughter, turned out to be a complete and total lie.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm sick. I apologize. Do I have Coatsville mixed up with somewhere else? Senior moment . Help, please.



VocalLisa said:


> Yes, for instance, it should be noted that it was the citizens of Coatsville, that shoved him back into the pyre with pitchforks and rakes. In otherwords, it wasn't just an ignorant few who did this, but it was the nature of the people from that town that give it such an awful name.
> 
> Seems like it was a particularly hateful and bigoted enclave. And sadly, that kind of ignorance and bigotry doesn't die away within just one generation. Although, Coatsville is changing as many of those TYPE people tend to move to the south where that kind of thinking is more accepted nowadays.
> 
> ...


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm impressed, whether or not you misspoke. My family tree doesn't go back beyond my great-grandparents. Jews in 19th century eastern Europe didn't keep good records.
> 
> My husband's family claims an ancestor who was a well-know rabbi. I claim a bottle of borsht.


Purl I can claim a bunch of drunken Irishmen who were all great tenors and my inheritance was a case of Guiness stout, empties! :thumbup:


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> From Jon Stewart is that the best you can do?
> 
> You may not like what they have or have not done, but they have not broken any laws.


What? Were they not elected by the citizens of this country to serve in the capacity of enacting laws for the good of the people? Have they not failed miserably? They haven't broken any laws?? That's the criteria for judging whether or not they're fulfilling their promise to the people?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Keeps them off the streets.



VocalLisa said:


> I missed this, I revealed I'm Cheeky? Where did I do that? And what are these "proofs" that you're referring to?
> 
> Honest to God, you have my permission to ask Admin to check to see if Cheeky and I are the same. I promise you, we're not.
> 
> But, I dunno, it's tough convincing those prone to conspiracy theories to get past their fantasy thinking.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put!



VocalLisa said:


> It's really only Christians and Muslims that have the proselytizing bug which is what makes it more offensive than other religions. The fact that it's right inside their dogma to disrespect and dishonor other religions and try to convert others to their religion.
> 
> So therefore, it's the Christian faith that will get backlash for that more than other religions if they are of the ilk of "saving souls" instead of helping the meek and the needy.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Excellent analysis.



NJG said:


> There have been lots of conspiracy theories about Benghazi of course. Some of the latest I just read about Benghazi is this.
> 
> House Government Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa said he could have flown commercial to Benghazi in time to stop the attack, so clearly Obama must have been covering something up. Lunatic Rep. Steve King (R-IA) said SEALs had been ordered to "stand down." And Fox repeated the stand down nonsense 85 times last summer.
> 
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Purl I can claim a bunch of drunken Irishmen who were all great tenors and my inheritance was a case of Guiness stout, empties! :thumbup:


I think we might have some ancestors in common, Cheeky. I know there were drunks.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

How about collecting their paychecks without working for it?



alcameron said:


> What? Were they not elected by the citizens of this country to serve in the capacity of enacting laws for the good of the people? Have they not failed miserably? They haven't broken any laws?? That's the criteria for judging whether or not they're fulfilling their promise to the people?


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Apologize for what?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> Yes, for instance, it should be noted that it was the citizens of Coatsville, that shoved him back into the pyre with pitchforks and rakes. In otherwords, it wasn't just an ignorant few who did this, but it was the nature of the people from that town that give it such an awful name.
> 
> Seems like it was a particularly hateful and bigoted enclave. And sadly, that kind of ignorance and bigotry doesn't die away within just one generation. Although, Coatsville is changing as many of those TYPE people tend to move to the south where that kind of thinking is more accepted nowadays.
> 
> ...


Seems that Coatsville had a rash of arson over a period of a couple years too. Very strange for such a small town.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2009/05/14/the-town-that-wont-stop-burning.html - 259k


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I think we might have some ancestors in common, Cheeky. I know there were drunks.


Then I will consider myself in good company if I am related to you. You have heard that vocal lisa and I are one in the same so you are related to her as well. :-D :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> Beautifully put. I'm sick to the back teeth of being threatened with hellfire and eternal damnation because I reject any notion of a supreme being. I'm here by accident, I do the best I can while I am here, and then I'm dead. That's enough for me.


aw9358
Exactly how I feel. Thank you. Hell is what some of the folks here are creating. There is none other hereafter.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> You is kind, you is smart, you is important...


_The Help_ was such a great movie.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> Keeps them off the streets.


damemary
VocalLisa 
lets face it, it is impossible to reason with psychologically impaired.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

VocalLisa said:


> I missed this, I revealed I'm Cheeky? Where did I do that? And what are these "proofs" that you're referring to?


 Yep, that's what I said and that's what you did. Nine or ten times on my best estimate. I'll be typing up the "proofs" but not sure you are on the "private communications" mailing list.



VocalLisa said:


> Honest to God, you have my permission to ask Admin to check to see if Cheeky and I are the same. I promise you, we're not.


Honest to Betsy, do ya actually think I'm that stupid - you *know* I am not. Admin has no legal authority to tell one KP poster the private info of another KP poster (without a subpoena/court order or similar). Besides, I *know for a fact * you and Cheeky Blighter are the same person, I don't need Admin's help nor your permission. What a farce ...

Since I do not respond to either of those evil and disgusting person(s), you'll know I'm talking about you when I refer to you as Vocal J. Blighter.


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> The point is that rocky1991 will be very upset with all your talk about any religion or faith EXCEPT the Christian one.
> 
> Knock it off. (is what she'd say)


Actually I really like to talk about religion. I like to learn all I can about the philosophy and metaphysics of religion. I do not like to be preached to or be told of the hell and damnation that faces me if I do not accept the one and only god. A pastor one asked me, after I graduated from college and moved to NC to teach, if Jesus came back , would I accept him as the Christian savior. At the time I said no, because in my opinion he was born a Jew and died a Jew. I feel the same way today. I do not believe he created the church. I believe those who followed him created the church.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

maysmom said:


> If Rocky or anyone else will be upset with me then they can address me themselves. Am I correct to think that you aren't telling me to "knock it off?"


Remember when I said this (3 days ago)?

"I feel exactly about you as you do Glenn Beck: not even worthy of responding to."


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Good grief...you people can't possibly be typing on your phones!


That's her gig; cut/paste/repeat (others' words) 'cause her posts are basically a one-trick pony.

They all go something like this;

Republican are hypocrites, Christian and Republicans don't care about the poor and feeding them, Repubs are hypocrites, the rich don't care about the poor and feeding them, everyone should received a HUGE minimum wage for flipping hamburgers, Walmart s.s, Repubs are hypocrites, the poor aren't being feed by the rich, the Koch brothers rules the world, the 1% are mean and those hypocritical Repubs too.

ETA: Darrell Issa is a Repub in leading his committees who should have done nothing 'cause he's paid to do something.

I think I've covered it all so you'll not have to read her posts ever again. I don't.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> Egregious? Not sure how you come to that conclusion about my post, it was not outrageous, gross or shocking, all I did was point out your error. To each their own as the saying goes.


1) You have no sense of humor.
2) Woooosh! Me pointing out _your_ error, {you still think GG said Saint James}, went right over your head *twice* now.
3) Congratulations!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

rocky1991 said:


> Actually I really like to talk about religion. I like to learn all I can about the philosophy and metaphysics of religion. I do not like to be preached to or be told of the hell and damnation that faces me if I do not accept the one and only god. A pastor one asked me, after I graduated from college and moved to NC to teach, if Jesus came back , would I accept him as the Christian savior. At the time I said no, because in my opinion he was born a Jew and died a Jew. I feel the same way today. I do not believe he created the church. I believe those who followed him created the church.


You can know a lot about Jesus and you can know Jesus...they're not always the same. Being a Christian is knowing the Christ...its a relationship that cannot be explained only experienced.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> That's her gig; cut/paste/repeat (others words) 'cause she is a one-trick pony.
> 
> She has only a couple of words/phrases in her vocabulary;
> Republican are hypocrites, Christian and Republicans don't care about the poor and feeding them, Repubs are hypocrites, the rich don't care about the poor and feeding them, everyone should received a HUGE minimum wage for flipping hamburgers, Walmart s.s, Repubs are hypocrites, the poor aren't being feed by the rich, the Koch brothers rules the world, the 1% are mean and those hypocritical Repubs too.
> ...


Thanks for the update. :thumbup:


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Thanks for the update. :thumbup:


Anytime - it'll save you time too!

I've made an appt to have my hair CCWD (color/cut/wash/dry) coming up in Feb.

I'm gonna have my stylist take a pic or two of the process so I *can* brag about what a great job he does!

Maybe I can get a new avatar out of the deal too! Isn't that special?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Anytime - it'll save you time too!


For sure


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

KPG...do you like my new avatar?

I put it together just for VocalLisa but I don't think she likes it.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerri - added to my prior post -


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> You can know a lot about Jesus and you can know Jesus...they're not always the same. Being a Christian is knowing the Christ...its a relationship that cannot be explained only experienced.


Since I am a non believer I could care less.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> KPG...do you like my new avatar?
> 
> I put it together just for VocalLisa but I don't think she likes it.


Didn't I mention I did? I think I did, perhaps on another thread.

Yep, it is pretty special. Viterbo is a Roman Catholic Univ isn't it?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Gerri - added to my prior post -


Now that I've got to see


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

rocky1991 said:


> Since I am a non believer I could care less.


I could care less, too, but I actually could*n't* care less. I'm surprised you care so much more than I do.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Didn't I mention I did? I think I did, perhaps on another thread.
> 
> Yep, it is pretty special. Viterbo is a Roman Catholic Univ isn't it?


Yes...it is..I just learned about it recently.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Now that I've got to see


Well, I'll show only so much . :-D


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Yes...it is..I just learned about it recently.


Wonder why? 

I'll be signing off. Very busy day.

Made a fantastic dinner tonight, two new recipes that I'll send to my buds.

Sayonara!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

rocky1991 said:


> Since I am a non believer I could care less.


I only mentioned it because you said you were interested in learning...try it you might like it!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Night Knit


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I know for a fact that Cheeky Blighter and Vocal Lisa are not the same persons.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And I have always observed rocky1991 (1) referring to Christian and Judaism both (2)only objecting to proselytizing.

Always interesting discussion.



rocky1991 said:


> Actually I really like to talk about religion. I like to learn all I can about the philosophy and metaphysics of religion. I do not like to be preached to or be told of the hell and damnation that faces me if I do not accept the one and only god. A pastor one asked me, after I graduated from college and moved to NC to teach, if Jesus came back , would I accept him as the Christian savior. At the time I said no, because in my opinion he was born a Jew and died a Jew. I feel the same way today. I do not believe he created the church. I believe those who followed him created the church.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Honest to Betsy, do ya actually think I'm that stupid - you *know* I am not. Admin has no legal authority to tell one KP poster the private info of another KP poster (without a subpoena/court order or similar). Besides, I *know for a fact * you and Cheeky Blighter are the same person, I don't need Admin's help nor your permission. What a farce ...
> 
> Since I do not respond to either of those evil and disgusting person(s), you'll know I'm talking about you when I refer to you as Vocal J. Blighter.


I don't know any other way to say this, and I know you think you're ALWAYS right, but you're WRONG about VocalLisa being Cheeky. I can hardly wait until you try to prove it!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

She won't and she can't. She will continue saying the same things over and over. Bet?



alcameron said:


> I don't know any other way to say this, and I know you think you're ALWAYS right, but you're WRONG about VocalLisa being Cheeky. I can hardly wait until you try to prove it!


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

damemary said:


> She won't and she can't. She will continue saying the same things over and over. Bet?


Just read your post where you said the same thing. Sorry, didn't mean to be repetitious.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Attention please. I am compiling a Top Ten List of attempted insults that instead induce laughter. Please comment and add your own favorites. 
*******************************************************************
These all come from KPG.
*******************************************************************

1. She thinks everything is about her. (Talking about someone else, of course.)

2. I know for a fact that Cheeky Blighter and Vocal Lisa are the same person.

3. I think I've covered it all so you'll not have to read her posts ever again.

4. Besides, it wasn't as if we didn't know already or do care. 

5. You really should stop talking to yourself. It isn't healthy.

6. Vanity is an evil. 

7. Consider this your first free lesson from me and a public service. You're welcome. 

These are all direct quotes from you know who. Please comment. Nothing is final at this point. I have left openings for your favorites.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I think we might have some ancestors in common, Cheeky. I know there were drunks.


Hello there cousins, well cousins on my mother's side. Those on my father's side were Welsh but they also liked to bend the elbow. Great great great grandfather owned one of the leading hotels in Perth in the 1800s, unfortunately died at the age of 45 from the DTs. He was a founding father in the state. He left a strong legacy though, 12 children who have multiplied and populated the state. When GGGF died his wife took over the running of the hotel as well as running their two farms. We have a very large suburb here in Perth named after them, the family donated land from one of the farms to start the suburb.

At least our families were a happy lot.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

damemary said:


> Attention please. I am compiling a Top Ten List of attempted insults that instead induce laughter. Please comment and add your own favorites.
> *******************************************************************
> These all come from KPG.
> *******************************************************************
> ...


I loved number 7. I was going to comment on that one right after she wrote it, but I didn't have time.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Didn't I mention I did? I think I did, perhaps on another thread.
> 
> Yep, it is pretty special. Viterbo is a Roman Catholic Univ isn't it?


Wrong again, Viterbo's athletes are the V-Hawks. Your partner looks like she is Vampira Queen of the Damned. Is that the look you're going for? Smile so we can see your teeth.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Didn't I mention I did? I think I did, perhaps on another thread.
> 
> Yep, it is pretty special. Viterbo is a Roman Catholic Univ isn't it?


Wrong again, Viterbo's athletes are the V-Hawks. Your partner looks like she is Vampira Queen of the Damned. Is that the look you're going for? Smile so we can see your teeth.

So where is your "proof". Don't have any do you? Liar liar pants on fire. You just can't stop yourself. Does it tell you to lie in the bible? It's fun playing cat and mouse with you. I am the cat and you are the vermin infested mouse. I will always win. :thumbup:


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Hello there cousins, well cousins on my mother's side. Those on my father's side were Welsh but they also liked to bend the elbow. Great great great grandfather owned one of the leading hotels in Perth in the 1800s, unfortunately died at the age of 45 from the DTs. He was a founding father in the state. He left a strong legacy though, 12 children who have multiplied and populated the state. When GGGF died his wife took over the running of the hotel as well as running their two farms. We have a very large suburb here in Perth named after them, the family donated land from one of the farms to start the suburb.
> 
> At least our families were a happy lot.


Yes and we are very fertile and have multiplied and covered the earth. Hello cousin, Eve!


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

damemary said:


> I know for a fact that Cheeky Blighter and Vocal Lisa are not the same persons.


That is because you are a sane non-delusional person Damemary.
I'm still waiting for the "proof" but she must have lost her courage and went home. She can't stand the heat or dealing with rational people she has been living in her little make believe world for so long.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> Attention please. I am compiling a Top Ten List of attempted insults that instead induce laughter. Please comment and add your own favorites.
> *******************************************************************
> These all come from KPG.
> *******************************************************************
> ...


My personal favorite (directed at me, after KPG absented herself from the site for a longish spell in January):

8. You have already begged me to return multiple times; no reason for you to repeat yourself but you will anyway, or talk about it even though no body cares.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Then I will consider myself in good company if I am related to you. You have heard that vocal lisa and I are one in the same so you are related to her as well. :-D :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


We're growing by leaps and bounds. I wonder why they're so insistent that we all have multiple personalities; wait, no, it's the opposite, one personality with multiple profiles. It's obvious from the way you and Lisa write that you're different people. It must be some new kind of psychosis they've caught from each other.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> She won't and she can't. She will continue saying the same things over and over. Bet?


And when she's proven wrong, she'll claim she never said they were the same, but we all couldn't "comprehend" what she was saying.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Attention please. I am compiling a Top Ten List of attempted insults that instead induce laughter. Please comment and add your own favorites.
> *******************************************************************
> These all come from KPG.
> *******************************************************************
> ...


I haven't read her posts in a couple of weeks, and I don't intend to start now. I'll have to pass. But I love the idea.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I thought it looked like Helena Bonham. A bit rode hard and put away wet.



Cheeky Blighter said:


> Wrong again, Viterbo's athletes are the V-Hawks. Your partner looks like she is Vampira Queen of the Damned. Is that the look you're going for? Smile so we can see your teeth.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Flaming pantalones.



Cheeky Blighter said:


> Wrong again, Viterbo's athletes are the V-Hawks. Your partner looks like she is Vampira Queen of the Damned. Is that the look you're going for? Smile so we can see your teeth.
> 
> So where is your "proof". Don't have any do you? Liar liar pants on fire. You just can't stop yourself. Does it tell you to lie in the bible? It's fun playing cat and mouse with you. I am the cat and you are the vermin infested mouse. I will always win. :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I will never reveal real pictures, but we did meet and party last summer at the cabin. If anyone will take liar liar's word for it instead of mine, too bad.



Cheeky Blighter said:


> That is because you are a sane non-delusional person Damemary.
> I'm still waiting for the "proof" but she must have lost her courage and went home. She can't stand the heat or dealing with rational people she has been living in her little make believe world for so long.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That is a plum. # 8 it is.



susanmos2000 said:


> My personal favorite (directed at me, after KPG absented herself from the site for a longish spell in January):
> 
> 8. You have already begged me to return multiple times; no reason for you to repeat yourself but you will anyway, or talk about it even though no body cares.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And they're trying to infect us.



Poor Purl said:


> We're growing by leaps and bounds. I wonder why they're so insistent that we all have multiple personalities; wait, no, it's the opposite, one personality with multiple profiles. It's obvious from the way you and Lisa write that you're different people. It must be some new kind of psychosis they've caught from each other.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh, you're good.



Poor Purl said:


> And when she's proven wrong, she'll claim she never said they were the same, but we all couldn't "comprehend" what she was saying.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> That is a plum. # 8 it is.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Remember when I said this (3 days ago)?
> 
> "I feel exactly about you as you do Glenn Beck: not even worthy of responding to."


Then why in the world do you have to imagine yourself as a liason between anyone and me? Make yourself happy and just ignore anything I write, whether it's to you or not.

I believe you are incapable of a polite conversation.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

rocky1991 said:


> Actually I really like to talk about religion. I like to learn all I can about the philosophy and metaphysics of religion. I do not like to be preached to or be told of the hell and damnation that faces me if I do not accept the one and only god. A pastor one asked me, after I graduated from college and moved to NC to teach, if Jesus came back , would I accept him as the Christian savior. At the time I said no, because in my opinion he was born a Jew and died a Jew. I feel the same way today. I do not believe he created the church. I believe those who followed him created the church.


Rocky,
Why does KPG think you're a rabid bible thumper? Oh,never mind, some people junst cannot be understood or explained. I have to read up again on the Baha'i faith next.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

damemary said:


> I thought it looked like Helena Bonham. A bit rode hard and put away wet.


I think she is Helena. Can't understand why a woman as lovely as she can come up with some pretty downright hot mess looks. Wasn't she Bellatrix in a Harry Potter movie?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Hello there cousins, well cousins on my mother's side. Those on my father's side were Welsh but they also liked to bend the elbow. Great great great grandfather owned one of the leading hotels in Perth in the 1800s, unfortunately died at the age of 45 from the DTs. He was a founding father in the state. He left a strong legacy though, 12 children who have multiplied and populated the state. When GGGF died his wife took over the running of the hotel as well as running their two farms. We have a very large suburb here in Perth named after them, the family donated land from one of the farms to start the suburb.
> 
> At least our families were a happy lot.


And at least one of them did a lot of traveling, all the way to Maramures, on the border of Romania and Hungary, where he progenited one of my ancestors. For some reason, Jews owned many of the taverns in that part of Europe, so any drunks travelling there could easily have made the acquaintance of someone in my family.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Flaming pantalones.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

maysmom said:


> I think she is Helena. Can't understand why a woman as lovely as she can come up with some pretty downright hot mess looks. Wasn't she Bellatrix in a Harry Potter movie?


Yes she was Bellatrix in the Harry Potter movies. We've watched them a million times at our house (and read the books). I think that pictures is her from the movie (or advert posters)


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Yep. That she was. Maybe she's into character roles. Do you have to look messy to do that?



maysmom said:


> I think she is Helena. Can't understand why a woman as lovely as she can come up with some pretty downright hot mess looks. Wasn't she Bellatrix in a Harry Potter movie?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Rocky,
> Why does KPG think you're a rabid bible thumper? Oh,never mind, some people junst cannot be understood or explained. I have to read up again on the Baha'i faith next.


Mom, are you really going through the alphabet? Anabaptist yesterday, Baha'i today, I hope you find something more interesting than Catholic tomorrow.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

At least you knew where to find them.



Poor Purl said:


> And at least one of them did a lot of traveling, all the way to Maramures, on the border of Romania and Hungary, where he progenited one of my ancestors. For some reason, Jews owned many of the taverns in that part of Europe, so any drunks travelling there could easily have made the acquaintance of someone in my family.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

damemary said:


> Yep. That she was. Maybe she's into character roles. Do you have to look messy to do that?


I was thinking of the hot mess looks I've seen in paparazzi photos.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Mom, are you really going through the alphabet? Anabaptist yesterday, Baha'i today, I hope you find something more interesting than Catholic tomorrow.


No, for C I want to read up on Christadelphians. I read up a lot on Bahai's years ago when two of my favorite musicians, Seals and Crofts, revealed that they were Baha'i. I think I still have the "Year of Sunday" LP somewhere.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> That is because you are a sane non-delusional person Damemary.
> I'm still waiting for the "proof" but she must have lost her courage and went home. She can't stand the heat or dealing with rational people she has been living in her little make believe world for so long.


Cheeky Blighter
Always a pleasure to see you Cheeky. Huck.
Wonder what it is like to live in a World so separate from the real one. Also wonder why those Worlds are always so dark and its inhabitants so nasty.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Wrong again, Viterbo's athletes are the V-Hawks.
> 
> So where is your "proof". Don't have any do you? Liar liar pants on fire. You just can't stop yourself. Does it tell you to lie in the bible? It's fun playing cat and mouse with you. I am the cat and you are the vermin infested mouse. I will always win. :thumbup:


Vocal J. Blighter:

I never made mention of Viterbo's athletes, and I had no idea of the teams names (like you do I guess).

Wonder why you know so much about them, told me I was "wrong" on something I never mentioned and why you brought them up.

My "proof" is in *my* possession. What makes you think I'm required to share it with you.

You must be doing your gymnastics again.


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> I only mentioned it because you said you were interested in learning...try it you might like it!


You have nothing to teach that I care to learn. All you can do is repeat your belief system, no facts.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

alcameron said:


> Thank you VocalLisa(I know you aren't Cheeky)
> I'm tired of the way certain "Christians" have hijacked the name and disregard Christ's precepts. And I'll get blasted once more for saying "negative things" about Christians on this (and other) threads who are barbaric when it comes to bullying, name-calling, general nastiness. They're sicky sweet when they talk to each other, but can't see their way, those good Christians, to say something civil to those who have different opinions. I can name one or two who treat people nicely, but the rest are downright vicious.


Agreed. There are nice Christians just like there are nice ANYTHING.

But, certainly in my experience, Conservative Christians, especially those who lean towards fundamentalism, have the biggest problem with not practicing what they preach.

Then again, I think people who NEED religion to make them better people, need it precisely because they aren't inherently good people. They NEED extreme "rules" to help keep themselves in line.

I think people who are naturally good people and who are religious, have a much more humble and personal relationship with God.

Unfortunately, those who have a LESS humble relationship with God and His Word, are often so obsessive and seem to have serious psychological problems, that they distort God's Word into justifying the hate and malicious nature they naturally have in their hearts.

Intstead of bending to God's Will, they constantly try to twist God's Will to be in line with their own.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

rocky1991 said:


> You have nothing to teach that I care to learn. All you can do is repeat your belief system, no facts.


So, its only your belief system that is factual?


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

knitpresentgifts said:


> _The Help_ was such a great movie.


... or so the more racist elements of our society tend to think.

I would agree that the actor's performances were great, and even the writing was well done.

But, I'm truly sick and tired of those black issues movies/books shown through the lens of white people. Especially the ones that like to show how black people would have nothing if it weren't for the generosity and kindness of white people like Skeeter and try to pretend that Skeeter was "the norm" and people like 
Hilly Holbrook were the exception.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Honest to Betsy, do ya actually think I'm that stupid - you *know* I am not. Admin has no legal authority to tell one KP poster the private info of another KP poster (without a subpoena/court order or similar).


So, you have "proofs" but you're too afraid to post what it is because your afraid it'll be challenged?

Evidently you ARE stupid, because Admin can EASILY look up our IP addresses and determine if the posts are coming from the same computer. Easy as 123.

I might even consider volunteering my IP address, except that it would let you know where I actually live and I'm not sure I'm willing to do that at this point.

Unless of course, you're saying that Cheeky and I are such computer experts that we can somehow disguise our IP addresses.

Which I SUPPOSE is possible ... in which case I thank you for presuming we're such geniuses that we can do that sort of thing.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

knitpresentgifts said:


> That's her gig; cut/paste/repeat (others' words) 'cause her posts are basically a one-trick pony.


What does that have to do with whether someone is posting on a phone or not?

Geezus, you can't follow ANY line of thought, much less a complicated one.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> From Jon Stewart is that the best you can do?
> 
> You may not like what they have or have not done, but they have not broken any laws.


I happen to think Jon Stewart makes a lot of sense. He has something my Grandma thought a lot of and that is common sense, something the republicans lack. Our President has not broken any laws either.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

VocalLisa said:


> What does that have to do with whether someone is posting on a phone or not?
> 
> Geezus, you can't follow ANY line of thought, much less a complicated one.


VocalLisa
KPG always accuses others of everything she does. Cerebral malfunction.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

NJG said:


> I happen to think Jon Stewart makes a lot of sense. He has something my Grandma thought a lot of and that is common sense, something the republicans lack. Our President has not broken any laws either.


NJG
"lawbreaking - impeachment" - too nutty to pay attention to, isn't it! Let them remain crazy, it will only assist the rest of us.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Very interesting thoughts. Thanks.



VocalLisa said:


> Agreed. There are nice Christians just like there are nice ANYTHING.
> 
> But, certainly in my experience, Conservative Christians, especially those who lean towards fundamentalism, have the biggest problem with not practicing what they preach.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

When compared with yours, yes.



Gerslay said:


> So, its only your belief system that is factual?


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> What has Obama done in the last 4 months that IS legal?


What laws has he been charged with breaking. All the repubs talk about is impeach. So why don't they do it?


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

maysmom said:


> I think she is Helena. Can't understand why a woman as lovely as she can come up with some pretty downright hot mess looks. Wasn't she Bellatrix in a Harry Potter movie?


I do believe she was. She is an extremely talented actress. I think of her as the female counterpart of Johnny Depp who also seems to favor bizarre characters.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Just because he has not been charged does not mean he has not broken any laws.
> 
> Almost everything he has done with Obamacare is illegal.


I would say charge him or shut up. People like you think it was ok for the shrub to kill over 4000 American men and women by sending them to Iraq, don't comment on 13 embassy attacks during the Bush administration, but talk constantly about Benghazi. You are such a bunch of HYPOCRITES.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No grounds. Just shooting blanks.



NJG said:


> What laws has he been charged with breaking. All the repubs talk about is impeach. So why don't they do it?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Hey Knitpresentgifts:

Surprise! I made this just for you...thought it was just the thing for your beautiful hair! Maybe you can wear it opening night...that is if VL remembers to send us the tickets!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Do you have any specific examples and how they are illegal? If it is illegal, why haven't the GOP stopped it?



joeysomma said:


> Just because he has not been charged does not mean he has not broken any laws.
> 
> Almost everything he has done with Obamacare is illegal.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put.



NJG said:


> I would say charge him or shut up. People like you think it was ok for the shrub to kill over 4000 American men and women by sending them to Iraq, don't comment on 13 embassy attacks during the Bush administration, but talk constantly about Benghazi. You are such a bunch of HYPOCRITES.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well now we know you're not talented in PhotoShop.



Gerslay said:


> Hey Knitpresentgifts:
> 
> Surprise! I made this just for you...thought it was just the thing for your beautiful hair! Maybe you can wear it opening night...that is if VL remembers to send us the tickets!


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> What has Obama done in the last 4 months that IS legal?


You must know something the rest of the country doesn't.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

damemary said:


> Well now we know you're not talented in PhotoShop.


Just makes me think she is a teenage brat sitting in a basement hiding behind her mommy's computer screen. All of her snarky remarks followed by groveling trying to get the recipients of those remarks to call a truce is very childish


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

lovethelake said:


> From Jon Stewart is that the best you can do?
> 
> You may not like what they have or have not done, but they have not broken any laws.


Since when is it that Republican break no laws? Or are you one of those stupid people that think Christie is innocent?


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Huckleberry said:


> VocalLisa
> KPG always accuses others of everything she does. Cerebral malfunction.


Yup, I have to say she has one of the most prolific tendencies for psychological projection I've seen.

No one could benefit more from looking HONESTLY into the mirror than KPG.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

joeysomma said:


> What has Obama done in the last 4 months that IS legal?


Absolutely 100% of everything he's done.

Sadly conservatives, who profess to love the U.S. Constitution so much lack the intellectual capacity to understand it.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

joeysomma said:


> Just because he has not been charged does not mean he has not broken any laws.
> 
> Almost everything he has done with Obamacare is illegal.


Of course, the very Conservative SCOTUS disagrees with you.

There's is absolutely NOTHING illegal about Obamacare.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Perhaps we should post the Constitution on KP just to be sure that the government reads it.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> that is if VL remembers to send us the tickets!


Still obsessed with me, and you still seem to think you know who I am.

Hilarious.

So you want tickets to something?.... mind if I post your full name and home address publicly ... you know, just to confirm I've got it right?

I don't mind if you post what you PRESUME to be mine. Of course, it won't be mine... but what the hell, I know I don't have anything to worry about...

How 'bout you?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> Still obsessed with me, and you still seem to think you know who I am.
> 
> Hilarious.
> 
> ...


I have a couple of parking tickets you could send her.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> Perhaps we should post the Constitution on KP just to be sure that the government reads it.


Pssst.

The Government doesn't read -- it's not actually a human being.

But quite frankly, the only people here who _NEED_ to read the Constitution , lack the intellectual capacity to understand it. So, posting it here would be moot.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> Still obsessed with me, and you still seem to think you know who I am.
> 
> Hilarious.
> 
> ...


Is it your intention to first offer an apology?


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

damemary said:


> Well now we know you're not talented in PhotoShop.


Well for starters., she clearly has Cousin It's face on backwards.

But you can't blame her for wanting to proverbially put a "good face" Cousin It of Knitting Paradise.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Anyone vain enough to use a publicity shot as her avatar and doesn't allow for a search via google images deserves what follows.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> Is it your intention to first offer an apology?


You said you want tickets to something so do you mind if I post your full name and home address publicly ... you know, just to confirm I've got it right?

Should I send them with your name, or your husband's name? Or should I send the tickets to Jeanne next door or Shirley who lives behind you?

I don't mind if you post what you PRESUME to be mine. Of course, it won't be mine... but what the hell, I know I don't have anything to worry about...

How 'bout you?


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> Anyone vain enough to use a publicity shot as her avatar and doesn't allow for a search via google images deserves what follows.


What will "follow"?

And YOU'RE using a publicity shot of an actress that you probably don't personally know, why can't I do the same?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> You said you want tickets to something so do you mind if I post your full name and home address publicly ... you know, just to confirm I've got it right?
> 
> Should I send them with your name, or your husband's name? Or should I send the tickets to Jeanne next door or Shirley who lives behind you?
> 
> ...


You need to stop triangulating with JC and pretending that you acted on her behalf...she doesn't need your protection. And its dysfunctional.

I'm talking about what happened between just you and I.
You need to apologize for your actions.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> What will "follow"?


A publicity shot does what its meant to do...other public things become known.

N'est-ce pas?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Esther Jan Lorrie Rosemary Kathy Aimee ... I can throw out names too

Is this really what you want to do?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Just because he has not been charged does not mean he has not broken any laws.
> 
> Almost everything he has done with Obamacare is illegal.


Exactly correct Joey.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> What will "follow"?
> 
> And YOU'RE using a publicity shot of an actress that you probably don't personally know, why can't I do the same?


Suit yourself


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Hey Knitpresentgifts:
> 
> Surprise! I made this just for you...thought it was just the thing for your beautiful hair! Maybe you can wear it opening night...that is if VL remembers to send us the tickets!


OMG! Gerslay. That's so beautiful! What a nice gift - thank you. I bet you were happy to finish that WIP, huh? :-D

I don't really know how to follow a pattern in crochet, but I think I could handle the knitting in this beautiful gown. (Not trying to criticize your talent because your work is fantastic!)

May I use this for my avatar? It is a heck of a lot prettier than the one I've been working on.

P.S. the heck with the tickets - would probably be a lousy show anyway.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> You need to stop triangulating with JC and pretending that you acted on her behalf...she doesn't need your protection. And its dysfunctional.
> 
> I'm talking about what happened between just you and I.
> You need to apologize for your actions.


I can wait.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> OMG! Gerslay. That's so beautiful! What a nice gift - thank you. I bet you were happy to finish that WIP, huh? :-D
> 
> I don't really know how to follow a pattern in crochet, but I think I could handle the knitting in this beautiful gown. (Not trying to criticize your talent because your work is fantastic!)
> 
> May I use this for my avatar? It is a heck of a lot prettier than the one I've been working on.


PLEASE say yes, Gerslay!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> OMG! Gerslay. That's so beautiful! What a nice gift - thank you. I bet you were happy to finish that WIP, huh? :-D
> 
> I don't really know how to follow a pattern in crochet, but I think I could handle the knitting in this beautiful gown. (Not trying to criticize your talent because your work is fantastic!)
> 
> ...


I'm so glad you like it...the minute I saw the pattern I know it was meant for you. Seems like your backside is getting more and more famous!

Of course...its yours...use it any way you wish!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> PLEASE say yes, Gerslay!


I can make one for you if you'd like!

Might take a while though...the crochet wasn't easy.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> Just makes me think she is a teenage brat sitting in a basement hiding behind her mommy's computer screen. All of her snarky remarks followed by groveling trying to get the recipients of those remarks to call a truce is very childish


If you take the time to read her posts and profile, you would know she is a grandmother and of age, silly.

She is only responding in kind to snark and insults, not initiating any.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Perhaps we should post the Constitution on KP just to be sure that the government reads it.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Is it your intention to first offer an apology?


I believe she offered you first a threat - again.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> If you take the time to read her posts and profile, you would know she is a grandmother and of age, silly.
> 
> She is only responding in kind to snark and insults, not initiating any.


Slight correction KPG...I'm only responding to the nest of vipers that claim to support tolerance and diversity...when in fact they're do neither.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


>


 :thumbup:


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> You need to stop triangulating with JC and pretending that you acted on her behalf...she doesn't need your protection. And its dysfunctional.
> 
> I'm talking about what happened between just you and I.
> You need to apologize for your actions.


Why? You only got what you earned and deserved. 
It's MUCH, MUCH less than I could've done.

I will "triangulate" all I want because others on this board should be made aware that you're a potentially dangerous person.

I just let you know, "who that hath an hed of verre, Fro cast of stones war hym in the werre!"


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> Why? You only got what you earned and deserved.
> It's MUCH, MUCH less than I could've done.
> 
> I will "triangulate" all I want because others on this board should be made aware that you're a potentially dangerous person.
> ...


And the third witch said,
Anon, Anon, Sir


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> A publicity shot does what its meant to do...other public things become known.
> 
> N'est-ce pas?


I suppose so.

However, I'm not exactly sure why posting information about Jody Briskey will effect me.

Or are you still of the silly notion I'm actually Jody Briskey?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> I'm so glad you like it...the minute I saw the pattern I know it was meant for you. Seems like your backside is getting more and more famous!
> 
> Of course...its yours...use it any way you wish!


Oh, umm you're right, of course! The LWNs LOVE my backside and obsess over my every post.

OK, then, Hairs looking at what it looks like!

Thanks!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> Not about me though.
> 
> Or are you still of the silly notion I'm actually Jody Briskey?


Now who's the silly girl...


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Let's see, how do I look?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Let's see, how do I look?


Amazing!!!!!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Slight correction KPG...I'm only responding to the nest of vipers that claim to support tolerance and diversity...when in fact they're do neither.


You are correct, again, and of course. I've never seen anything like it.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> You said you want tickets to something so do you mind if I post your full name and home address publicly ... you know, just to confirm I've got it right?
> 
> Should I send them with your name, or your husband's name? Or should I send the tickets to Jeanne next door or Shirley who lives behind you?
> 
> ...


You're lucky that the button I chose to hit was "QUOTE REPLY" and not "REPORT ISSUE".

I take this as your SECOND PUBLIC THREAT!

Admin must be getting tired of your shenanigans!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Amazing!!!!!


Does it make my hair look fat?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

KPG...I really like your avatar...its cool

HAHAHA...fat hair...hahaha


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> Now who's the silly girl...


Evidently you are.

But be forewarned -- I've informed you I'm not Jody Brinsky. If you choose to post personal information about her and any harm comes to her, that's completely and totally your legal hot potato.

I merely posted a picture of an actress I admire, just like you have a picture of Helena Bonham Carter.

If you choose to presume that she and I are the same, that's on you.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> You're lucky that the button I chose to hit was "QUOTE REPLY" and not "REPORT ISSUE".
> 
> I take this as your SECOND PUBLIC THREAT!
> 
> Admin must be getting tired of your shenanigans!


Agreed - we all are.

BTW: I just learned how to spell shenanigans!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> Evidently you are.
> 
> But be forewarned -- I've informed you I'm not Jody Brinsky. If you choose to post personal information about her and any harm comes to her, that's completely and totally your legal hot potato.
> 
> ...


Who the heck is Jody Brinsky?

What are you talking about?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Agreed - we all are.
> 
> BTW: I just learned how to spell shenanigans!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> KPG...I really like your avatar...its cool
> 
> HAHAHA...fat hair...hahaha


Well, you should, it came off your needles!

I love it, thanks so much.

I will keep it until I create a replacement in a couple of days. Then probably alternate my look for casual and going out to opening night. :-D

(Getting the hair done and am gonna have my stylist take "pro" shots of my hair, so I can make a better avatar instead of one I took myself holding a mirror shooting into a mirror replicating an avatar of another KP poster. ) Long story  my hair is too! :-D


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Well, you should, it came off your needles!
> 
> I love it, thanks so much.
> 
> ...


What do you mean...a replacement?

I love long stories!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

VocalLisa said:


> But be forewarned -- I've informed you I'm not Jody Brinsky. If you choose to post personal information about her and any harm comes to her, that's completely and totally your legal hot potato.
> 
> I merely posted a picture of an actress I admire, just like you have a picture of Helena Bonham Carter.


Who's Jody Brinsky?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Who's Jody Brinsky?


I honestly don't know what she's talking about.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Who the heck is Jody Brinsky?
> 
> What are you talking about?


I just said the same thing. Sounds like "spin" to me and some CYA shenanigans*(!)

*Love I can now spell that word!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Weird, to say the least


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

KPG: You watching the Olympics? The skating last night was phenomenal...smashing records across the boards.

Tonight is louge, or bobsled...skeleton they call it


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> What do you mean...a replacement?
> 
> I love long stories!


I've been creating a new avatar. Well, actually, I only took about 5 minutes to create it as opposed to the one I've been using recently which took 1 minute!

That's the long and short of it.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I've been creating a new avatar. Well, actually, I only took about 5 minutes to create it as opposed to the one I've been using recently which took 1 minute!
> 
> That's the long and short of it.


OIC


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> KPG: You watching the Olympics? The skating last night was phenomenal...smashing records across the boards.
> 
> Tonight is louge, or bobsled...skeleton they call it


Actually, no. I watched some of the opening ceremonies, wasn't impressed and haven't watched any of the competitions.

I've been busy working and try to create some things. Finished a Valentine's Day outfit that was requested for a little girl. Thankfully, it was done early enough for her to wear tomorrow.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Actually, no. I watched some of the opening ceremonies, wasn't impressed and haven't watched any of the competitions.
> 
> I've been busy working and try to create some things. Finished a Valentine's Day outfit that was requested for a little girl. Thankfully, it was done early enough for her to wear tomorrow.


I love working on little girl's things...so sweet.

I'm making scarves for next year's Christmas presents for the 20 women in my bible study. 3 down, 17 to go.  Each one different and to match their winter coat. Its a surprise!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> I love working on little girl's things...so sweet.
> 
> I'm making scarves for next year's Christmas presents for the 20 women in my bible study. 3 down, 17 to go. Each one different and to match their winter coat. Its a surprise!


Wow - you go girl! I'm lucky if I get my Cmas decorations up on time.

Speaking of which, I think this has become our private thread, so I'll be quiet now so others can speak.

Thanks again for my beautiful avatar; it's a keeper!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> OIC


Your confusing me...I thought you're new avatar was going to be after you get your hair done. No?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Wow - you go girl! I'm lucky if I get my Cmas decorations up on time.
> 
> Speaking of which, I think this has become our private thread, so I'll be quiet now so others can speak.
> 
> Thanks again for my beautiful avatar; it's a keeper!


you're right, I hadn't even noticed

and your welcome!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> I love working on little girl's things...so sweet.
> 
> I'm making scarves for next year's Christmas presents for the 20 women in my bible study. 3 down, 17 to go. Each one different and to match their winter coat. Its a surprise!


I probably should have explained, I sew, a lot, and the Val's Day outfit was a sewn skirt with ruffle and appliquéd long-sleeve tee to match.

Yes, I adore making clothes and sewn things for the little ones.

I knit for them as well; and for adults, too, IF I can ever find or make enough time to accomplish it all.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Your confusing me...I thought you're new avatar was going to be after you get your hair done. No?


Yes! Appt for the 19th or 20th - I forget w/out looking it up - so after - if the pics are taken.

Meanwhile, I love my present one . it's fancy, classy, gorgeous (and well made), thanks to some generous soul! 

Gotta go - mouse batteries are dying.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> Anyone vain enough to use a publicity shot as her avatar and doesn't allow for a search via google images deserves what follows.


So who specifically are you talking about "was vain enough to use a publicity shot as her avatar" and somehow had the ability to not allow for a search via google images?

How does my posting a picture of an actress I admire make me vain?

And how would I be able to prohibit "a search via google images" if I'm not Jody Briskey?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Yes! Appt for the 19th or 20th - I forget w/out looking it up - so after - if the pics are taken.
> 
> Meanwhile, I love my present one . it's fancy, classy, gorgeous (and well made), thanks to some generous soul!
> 
> Gotta go - mouse batteries are dying.


ooops...sorry, I thought you left

CYA!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> So who specifically are you talking about "was vain enough to use a publicity shot as her avatar" and somehow had the ability to not allow for a search via google images?
> 
> How does my posting a picture of an actress I admire make me vain?
> 
> And how would I be able to prohibit "a search via google images" if I'm not Jody Briskey?


Change your avatar and I'll change mine and we'll end this foolishness.

I'd suggest you not use that previous one though.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

*WARNING. THIS POST that occurs a little later in this thread

contains a link with intentionally offensive pictures in it. DO NOT CLICK.*



Gerslay said:


> KPG...do you like my new avatar?
> 
> I put it together just for VocalLisa but I don't think she likes it.


Actually, I didn't notice the avatar until today.

What is it about the picture you think I'd appreciate?

What does a picture of Helena Bonham Carter have to do with Viterbo?

I've never heard of Viterbo before.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> Actually, I didn't notice the avatar until today.
> 
> What is it about the picture you think I'd appreciate?
> 
> What does a picture of Helena Bonham Carter have to do with Viterbo?


You and I are not moving forward until you either apologize, declare truce, or change your avatar.

Three options...all of them easy...pick one.

This is getting boring.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

damemary said:


> Yep. That she was. Maybe she's into character roles. Do you have to look messy to do that?


Yes she did have to look like mess. Bellatrix lestrange was a total hot mess and more than slightly insane, having been locked up with monsters who stole any good feelings and left her feeling totally depressed as her jailers for years.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> Yes she did have to look like mess. Bellatrix lestrange was a total hot mess and more than slightly insane, having been locked up with monsters who stole any good feelings and left her feeling totally depressed as her jailers for years.


Yup, Azkhaban (sp?) sounds like quite the place...


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

VocalLisa said:


> ... or so the more racist elements of our society tend to think.
> 
> I would agree that the actor's performances were great, and even the writing was well done.
> 
> ...


Now I got the impression that Hilly Holbrook was not the extreme, but that she was the norm and that was why Skeeter had such a hard time even getting up the courage to follow through on the book.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> You and I are not moving forward until you either apologize, declare truce, or change your avatar.


OK, I'll change my avatar.

Is that better? Do you know who it is?

I think astronauts are some of our most underrated heroes, don't you?

I think he's from the same state you may think I'm from.

(_I have nothing to apologize for, and I don't what point there is in declaring a truce with someone who STILL doesn't recognize that it was wrong for her to willfully endanger another member of this board._)


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> So, its only your belief system that is factual?


No spiritual belief system is factual. None. That is the reason spirituality is based on faith.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> If you take the time to read her posts and profile, you would know she is a grandmother and of age, silly.
> 
> She is only responding in kind to snark and insults, not initiating any.


Ah, but you are talking chronological age, I am talking mental age. Sorry if that confused you.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151968401251028


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> OK, I'll change my avatar.
> 
> Is that better? Do you know who it is?
> 
> ...


You're funny...always saving face.
But thank you anyway.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Lkholcomb said:


> Now I got the impression that Hilly Holbrook was not the extreme, but that she was the norm and that was why Skeeter had such a hard time even getting up the courage to follow through on the book.


I don't hold that impression. I believe that they tried to make it look like Hilly had power that kept everyone else from fighting back and Skeeter just happened to be the bravest one, in part because she was of a newer generation of empowered women who are now involving themselves in careers.

It doesn't help that the author pretty obviously stole the story from her own maid and didn't even discuss it with her or compensate her for it. (Even though the case was thrown out because of the technicality of "statute of limitations")

Her family hired me as a maid for 12 years but then she stole my life and made it a Disney movie

If you read it, one has to admit there's an awful lot of "little details" that seem to come directly from the REAL LIFE Abilene.

There's of course the name, with the slightly different spelling: Aibileen/Abilene.

For instance in the book the "fictional" Abilene loses her son only a few months after starting work for the family, so does the real life Abilene. "_Aibileen is a deeply religious woman who sports a gold tooth and a gold cross, as does the real-life Abilene_."

I'm sorry, but too much of the story seem like a white person patting herself on the back for being half-decent to black people and the whole book seems to be about how "Yankees" can't really understand the close and complicated love and respect whites have for blacks in the south. It's not racism, it's just a different "relationship". Even though there are "problems" the South isn't as racists as blacks make it out to be.

Which is a very subtle but still racist POV, IMO.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> You're funny...always saving face.
> But thank you anyway.


Are you aware who the photo is of? Or are you not familiar with NASA history like that?

And is that what Cousin It is doing... saving her face? Or just saving US from having to see it?


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> Since when is it that Republican break no laws? Or are you one of those stupid people that think Christie is innocent?


There is more coming out about Christy all the time. Now they are talking about the tunnel [from NY to NJ] that had already had a large sum of money spent on it and more had been appropriated for it. When he became governor, he made the decision to stop the tunnel, he said because they couldn't afford it, because the cost estimates were different than they had been told. Not true, the cost estimates were the same but CC wanted that money to use for road repair. He promised to not raise taxes, the road repair fund was out of money, so he stopped the tunnel and used the money. Was that legal? The legislature is looking into that now too. Is he innocent? Doubtful, very doubtful.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Exactly correct Joey.


As usual, just a lot of blah, blah, blah. You do thee same thing all the time.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

NJG said:


> There is more coming out about Christy all the time. Now they are talking about the tunnel{from NY to NJ} that had already had a large sum of money spent on it and more had been appropriated for it. When he became governor, he made the decision to stop the tunnel, he said because they couldn't afford it, because the cost estimates were different than they had been told. Not true, the cost estimates were the same but CC wanted that money to use for road repair. He promised to not raise taxes, the road repair fund was out of money, so he stopped the tunnel and used the money. Was that legal? The legislature is looking into that now too. Is he innocent? Doubtful, very doubtful.


Yes, I heard that.

I think this guy has a never ending list of "questionable" practices. It's just the way the thug operated.

We already KNOW he appropriated monies that was supposed to go to helping the VICTIMS of Sandy and gave the money to towns that didn't even suffer much if ANY damage.

Now whether the laws are too vague, that he'll get away with doing that... time will tell.

However, ANYONE with a sense of decency would know that it's not right to re-direct funds to a part of the state that is not IN NEED the way other places were.

He's throwing money into "Bellville", which just HAPPENS to get money even though there wasn't much damage === and then two weeks later the Democratic mayor "just happens" to endorse Christie.

But somehow they didn't "find" money for Hoboken which was CLEARLY underwater and SEVERELY effected by the storm???

Christie was using that money as a slush fund for himself. No way in hell that's not self-evidently TRUE.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

No, it's not just Christy. There are more crooked republicans out there. Instead of devoting all your time being disrespectful to our president, maybe you should try to clean up your own party. I think they need help. 

The U.S. Justice Department launched a criminal investigation into the North Carolina Department of Environment and Natural Resources (DENR) following Duke Energy's massive coal ash spill into the Dan River: Republican Gov Pat McCrory worked for Duke Energy for 28 years before becoming governor. An environmental group has tried to use the federal Clean Water Act's citizen lawsuit provision to force Duke Energy to clean up its coal ash pits, only to have their efforts blocked by DENR. They filed 3 lawsuits and each time McCrory and the DENR took over the law suits which they can do if they do in within 60 days and issue a fine of 99,000 and requiring no clean up and all is forgotten. For a company as wealthy as Duke Energy, 99,000 is a drop in the bucket. 

In one of the worst coal ash spills in U.S. history, up to 27 million gallons of contaminated water and 82,000 tons of coal ash spilled into North Carolinas Dan River after a pipe burst underneath a waste pond. That is enough toxic sludge to fill more than 70 Olympic swimming pools. The river has turned grey for miles, and environmentalists say they have found arsenic levels 35 times higher than the maximum set by federal regulators.

The Associated Press has revealed that over the last year, following the election of Governor McCrory, North Carolinas environmental agency has blocked lawsuits over Dukes coal ash ponds three times, eventually shielding all 31 ponds from potential lawsuits.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I did not say that Obamacare is illegal. (Actually the only thing the Supreme Court has said is that charging a penalty for not having insurance is legal, since it is a tax). They also said that the Federal Government cannot force the states to expand Medicare. (that part of the law was illegal). There are more challenges in the works.
> 
> What I said is, that what Obama has done with it is illegal. His job is to enforce the laws, as written, passed by Congress. He cannot decide which part of the law he will enforce and what he can change to whatever he wants. He changed the date for employers providing insurance at least twice. If he followed the law as passed everyone who did not have insurance on Jan 1, 2014 will pay a fine with their 2014 taxes.
> 
> He has exempted several groups from having Obamacare, including congress and their aides (the government is still paying 70% of their premiums, which was specifically excluded in the law); Several unions; But he won't exempt the Little Sisters of the Poor for a rule that is in direct opposition to the Bill of Rights. It has been reported he has violated the law in changing it 27 times.


When you get your law degree, I might take the time to read your crap. Otherwise I am sure it is the same crap you have been saying over and over again. If he tries to fix something, he is breaking the law. If he doesn't try to fix it, he is breaking the law, so why listen to anything you have to say.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> Just makes me think she is a teenage brat sitting in a basement hiding behind her mommy's computer screen. All of her snarky remarks followed by groveling trying to get the recipients of those remarks to call a truce is very childish


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: She doesn't fool me either.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

VocalLisa said:


> Pssst.
> 
> The Government doesn't read -- it's not actually a human being.
> 
> But quite frankly, the only people here who _NEED_ to read the Constitution , lack the intellectual capacity to understand it. So, posting it here would be moot.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

NJG said:


> When you get your law degree, I might take the time to read your crap. Otherwise I am sure it is the same crap you have been saying over and over again. If he tries to fix something, he is breaking the law. If he doesn't try to fix it, he is breaking the law, so why listen to anything you have to say.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

The democrats have decided to try to bring a discharge petition to bring raising the minimum wage and immigration to the floor of the house without Boehner. What are the odds that it will work? I think immigration will be harder than minimum wage, but you have to give them credit for trying. Sounds like they are done letting the tea party control everything. Weather it works or not the American people will know who is working for them because the majority of the people want a raise in the minimum wage, and if the republicans thing they can get minorities to vote for them, this should remove all doubt from their minds. They won't. Everyone knows the republicans work for those that sign the checks on the front and the democrats work for those that sign the checks on the back.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I'm sure I know more about the law than you do. I have started a labor union, wrote the first contract, have had a real estate license, and have worked on two estates being the executor of one and prepare taxes. I have also had graduate classes in school law. I have chosen not to go forward in studying for a law degree since I would hate to be forced to defend someone as yourself.


Believe me, that would not ever ever happen. I do not break the law and would never hire someone like you to defend me if I did. You go ahead and pat yourself on the back all you want. I am not impressed, by people like you and KPG who love to tell others how important they think they are. What was that comment made recently, people who need to pat themselves on the back are very insecure.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The one thing I am not, is insecure. I KNOW where I am going when I pass away. I am a sinner saved by grace. That makes me very secure!.


Amen!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The one thing I am not, is insecure. I KNOW where I am going when I pass away. I am a sinner saved by grace. That makes me very secure!.


Whatever!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The one thing I am not, is insecure. I KNOW where I am going when I pass away. I am a sinner saved by grace. That makes me very secure!.


You dare to make God's decision? It isn't it He who will decide where you go?


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> You dare to make God's decision? It isn't it He who will decide where you go?


She is one of those bible thumping republicans who believes that no matter what comes out of her mouth and how she talks about others, that God will save her. I think God may have some surprises is store for some republicans.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

NJG said:


> Whatever!


NJG
Fact is that when "the lights go out" we all end up in the same place. Dust to Dust. All Fairy Tales come to an end.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

VocalLisa said:


> Yes, I heard that.
> 
> I think this guy has a never ending list of "questionable" practices. It's just the way the thug operated.
> 
> ...


VocalLisa
Chris Christie = the greatest Con-Man and Bully. Using the bullying to intimidate everyone.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The one thing I am not, is insecure. I KNOW where I am going when I pass away. I am a sinner saved by grace. That makes me very secure!.


Very foolish, Joey.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled, but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:14-17 NKJV)


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Very foolish, Joey.
> 
> 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled, but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:14-17 NKJV)


Then why do they always say that good works are not what saves a person, but belief in Jesus?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Then why do they always say that good works are not what saves a person, but belief in Jesus?


I've no idea, Purl. Probably because it's easier for them to grab a Sharpy and draw a line through such passages than to actually read them.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

NJG said:


> Whatever!


Classic callus statement from someone that is proud to be an Obamacultist. Someone that preaches how we are all to be tolerant. Someone that pontificates acceptances of other's beliefs.

But no, she has to mock someone's deep and sincere beliefs. Pathetic


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Classic callus statement from someone that is proud to be an Obamacultist. Someone that preaches how we are all to be tolerant. Someone that pontificates acceptances of other's beliefs.
> 
> But no, she has to mock someone's deep and sincere beliefs. Pathetic


Dare I use her favorite word to describe her? "Hypocrite!" :-D


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Dare I use her favorite word to describe her? "Hypocrite!" :-D


Yes. Can you imagine the 'outrage' if any person that has deeply Christian religious beliefs said 'whatever' to someone of the Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Native American..... beliefs?


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

NJG said:


> She is one of those bible thumping republicans who believes that no matter what comes out of her mouth and how she talks about others, that God will save her. I think God may have some surprises is store for some republicans.


Nope not surprises just promises , if you believe in Jesus Christ you will be save. Not if you are Rep of Dem.

We are all made in his image as we don't know what he looks like I myself think it may mean the soul not the body.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> NJG
> Fact is that when "the lights go out" we all end up in the same place. Dust to Dust. All Fairy Tales come to an end.


not me but wish you all the luck you will have with what you beleive. Just one of those funder Chirstians. Hope someday you will join me. Not being mean just hoping.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> How do you know what I do or not do?
> 
> Works do not save you! First comes faith, then works. The works need to be done in Jesus name. Then the individual is responsible to see that the money or items you give or the work you do is to glorify God.


Matthew 6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Happy Valentine's Day, Everyone!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think his cover is blown and like all big bullies he will vanish when the going gets tough.



Huckleberry said:


> VocalLisa
> Chris Christie = the greatest Con-Man and Bully. Using the bullying to intimidate everyone.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Amen.



susanmos2000 said:


> Very foolish, Joey.
> 
> 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled, but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:14-17 NKJV)


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ah, they'll say anything.



Poor Purl said:


> Then why do they always say that good works are not what saves a person, but belief in Jesus?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> I've no idea, Purl. Probably because it's easier for them to grab a Sharpy and draw a line through such passages than to actually read them.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

joeysomma said:


> How do you know what I do or not do?
> 
> ***********************************************
> By your actions which speak louder than words.
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We have some excellent Biblical scholars in our midst.



sumpleby said:


> Matthew 6
> 
> King James Version (KJV)
> 
> ...


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Happy Valentine's Day, Everyone!


Happy Valentine's Day to you as well and everyone else.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Classic callus statement from someone that is proud to be an Obamacultist. Someone that preaches how we are all to be tolerant. Someone that pontificates acceptances of other's beliefs.
> 
> But no, she has to mock someone's deep and sincere beliefs. Pathetic


You wouldn't know deep and sincere beliefs if they bit you in the butt. It is easy to look down your nose at others and try to convince people you are a Christian, but your mouth gives you away.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Classic callus statement from someone that is proud to be an Obamacultist. Someone that preaches how we are all to be tolerant. Someone that pontificates acceptances of other's beliefs.
> 
> But no, she has to mock someone's deep and sincere beliefs. Pathetic


You sure made a babbling reply to a one-word post. "Whatever" doesn't mean "idiot," "delusional," or "absolutely right." Of course, you had to toss Obama in there.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Happy Valentine's Day to all.



Cindy S said:


> Happy Valentine's Day to you as well and everyone else.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

maysmom said:


> You sure made a babbling reply to a one-word post. "Whatever" doesn't mean "idiot," "delusional," or "absolutely right." Of course, you had to toss Obama in there.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :roll: :roll:


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Dare I use her favorite word to describe her? "Hypocrite!" :-D


Sorry KPG, that is your description and you can't give it away. It fit's you so well. You are always trying to make other people believe you are a Christian, but then you mouth proves you wrong.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Nope not surprises just promises , if you believe in Jesus Christ you will be save. Not if you are Rep of Dem.
> 
> We are all made in his image as we don't know what he looks like I myself think it may mean the soul not the body.


Well I think it takes more than belief. You have to live the life of a Christian, a person that cares about others. Sorry, but I don't see that from some of you ladies on the right. I see some of you looking down you nose at others with the attitude of I got mine and to he-- with you.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

NJG said:


> You wouldn't know deep and sincere beliefs if they bit you in the butt. It is easy to look down your nose at others and try to convince people you are a Christian, but your mouth gives you away.


Tsk tsk, being judgmental again, and your judgment is wrong again. But I will commend you on consistency.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

NJG said:


> Well I think it takes more than belief. You have to live the life of a Christian, a person that cares about others. Sorry, but I don't see that from some of you ladies on the right. I see some of you looking down you nose at others with the attitude of I got mine and to he-- with you.


I am from the ladies on the right . I have always tried to help you understand that if you don't accept Jesus you are not saved. It takes believing that Jesus is the Son of God and you have to ask forgiveness. 
Yes you should try to be Christ like but we are still in our flesh so we are not perfect we have flaws. We admit we fail daily that is why we are so proud to have Jesus as our Savior.
Nothing would make me happier to have all of you go to Heaven. We want that for you. You all take what we are saying (Spiritual ) as a threat and want to argue.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> You dare to make God's decision? It isn't it He who will decide where you go?


No He gives us free will to chose Him . We are not His puppets to control. We have to ask Him for forgiveness of our Sins . Accepting Jesus as our Savior and asking Him to take our Sins . He is good to forgive us and God will not remember them as far as the east is from the west buried in the depths of the sea. That is why Jesus died for our sins. Adam couldn't be perfect. We cannot keep the Ten Commandments so He offered up this Son Jesus for our sins. It is up to us where we live eternity. It is very easy that even a child can say Father forgive me . I accept you as my Savior. Doesn't hurt a bit. Don't even have to be good or cleaned up . Just as you are come to Him. Not you meaning everyone.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> No He gives us free will to chose Him . We are not His puppets to control. We have to ask Him for forgiveness of our Sins . Accepting Jesus as our Savior and asking Him to take our Sins . He is good to forgive us and God will not remember them as far as the east is from the west buried in the depths of the sea. That is why Jesus died for our sins. Adam couldn't be perfect. We cannot keep the Ten Commandments so He offered up this Son Jesus for our sins. It is up to us where we live eternity. It is very easy that even a child can say Father forgive me . I accept you as my Savior. Doesn't hurt a bit. Don't even have to be good or cleaned up . Just as you are come to Him. Not you meaning everyone.


Well stated, thank you


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Very foolish, Joey.
> 
> 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled, but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:14-17 NKJV)


You need to put the whole thought into the message of scriptures.

ESV  James 2:14-17

James 1
James 2
James 3

The Sin of Partiality

2 My brothers,1 wshow no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, xthe Lord of glory. 2 For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, 3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, You sit here in a good place, ywhile you say to the poor man, You stand over there, or, Sit down at my feet, 4 have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become zjudges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my beloved brothers, ahas not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be brich in faith and heirs of cthe kingdom, dwhich he has promised to those who love him? 6 But you ehave dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who fdrag you ginto court? 7 Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable hname by which you were called?

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, iYou shall love your neighbor as yourself, you are doing well. 9 But if you jshow partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point khas become accountable for all of it. 11 For he who said, lDo not commit adultery, also said, lDo not murder. If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under mthe law of liberty. 13 For njudgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith obut does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 pIf a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 qand one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, without giving them the things needed for the body, what good2 is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith rapart from your works, and I will show you my faith sby my works. 19 tYou believe that God is one; you do well. Even uthe demons believeand shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 vWas not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that wfaith was active along with his works, and faith was completed xby his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, yAbraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousnessand he was called a zfriend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also aRahab the prostitute justified by works bwhen she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> NJG
> Fact is that when "the lights go out" we all end up in the same place. Dust to Dust. All Fairy Tales come to an end.


You are right you will be in total darkness if you don't accept Jesus. Only 2 choices Heaven or Hell . I chose Heaven. In total darkness you will still know that the Great I Am is God, that will be the worst hell knowing that you have been told the Truth and you believed a lie.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> NJG
> Fact is that when "the lights go out" we all end up in the same place. Dust to Dust. All Fairy Tales come to an end.


You're a breath of fresh air. I'd rather be where my then 2-year-old great-niece said my lovely sister had gone: "Grandma's in the stars now".

Even the funeral service says "sure and certain hope", not "sure and certain knowledge". A strange choice of words for otherwise very certain people.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You are right you will be in total darkness if you don't accept Jesus. Only 2 choices Heaven or Hell . I chose Heaven. In total darkness you will still know that the Great I Am is God, that will be the worst hell knowing that you have been told the Truth and you believed a lie.


Quite frankly, if the conservative Christian version of Heaven is truly as you describe then I'd choose Hell. There's no way I'd want to spend eternity in the presence of a god who sentenced 99% of the world's inhabitants (past, present, and future) to eternal damnation.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I am from the ladies on the right . I have always tried to help you understand that if you don't accept Jesus you are not saved. It takes believing that Jesus is the Son of God and you have to ask forgiveness.
> Yes you should try to be Christ like but we are still in our flesh so we are not perfect we have flaws. We admit we fail daily that is why we are so proud to have Jesus as our Savior.
> Nothing would make me happier to have all of you go to Heaven. We want that for you. You all take what we are saying (Spiritual ) as a threat and want to argue.


So,not being a Christian means there is no hope for me, no matter what type of life I lead. I will not be saved. One third of the world are Christians and accept Jesus, which means tho thirds of the world are not Christians and therefore have not accepted Christ and are therefore, according to you, not going to be saved. Two thirds of the world are doomed because they do not follow the same religion as you. Your words, if you do not accept Jesus Christ you will not be saved. I nearly forgot, Christianity is a religion of peace, love, tolerance and understanding. You just write off everyone who is not a Christian. A demonstration of love? I think not.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Quite frankly, if the conservative Christian version of Heaven is truly as you describe then I'd choose Hell. There's no way I'd want to spend eternity in the presence of a god who sentenced 99% of the world's inhabitants (past, present, and future) to eternal damnation.


Your choice. After you are dead no turning back. But you will change your mind then and it will be too late. You have been told the truth so you are accountable now.
I have been a Christian long before I voted Rep.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> So,not being a Christian means there is no hope for me, no matter what type of life I lead. I will not be saved. One third of the world are Christians and accept Jesus, which means tho thirds of the world are not Christians and therefore have not accepted Christ and are therefore, according to you, not going to be saved. Two thirds of the world are doomed because they do not follow the same religion as you. Your words, if you do not accept Jesus Christ you will not be saved. I nearly forgot, Christianity is a religion of peace, love, tolerance and understanding. You just write off everyone who is not a Christian. A demonstration of love? I think not.


Your chose. Heaven or hell.

John 3:16

16 pFor God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten qSon, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Your choose. Heaven or hell.


Hell please. I have seen the mob who reckon they are assured of a place in heaven and if they are going to heaven I definitely do not want to go there. hell looks like a far better option. But you see I am a Buddhist, I believe in Karma and the cycle of rebirth so I shall keep coming back until I become a stream enterer and reach Nirvana, or nothingness, no more rebirth cycle. But I will let you enjoy your delusions, I am not going to preach to you, unlike the fundamentalist Christians.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.[a] The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us. 27 And he said, Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house 28 for I have five brothers*so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 But Abraham said, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent. 31 He said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.*


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Hell please. I have seen the mob who reckon they are assured of a place in heaven and if they are going to heaven I definitely do not want to go there. hell looks like a far better option. But you see I am a Buddhist, I believe in Karma and the cycle of rebirth so I shall keep coming back until I become a stream enterer and reach Nirvana, or nothingness, no more rebirth cycle. But I will let you enjoy your delusions, I am not going to preach to you, unlike the fundamentalist Christians.


Your choice.
My Savior is not in the grave.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> I do believe she was. She is an extremely talented actress. I think of her as the female counterpart of Johnny Depp who also seems to favor bizarre characters.


I would imagine because those parts are more fun to play than the usual good guy/gal characters. They both have enormous talent and pick parts that they can show off said talent.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Classic callus statement from someone that is proud to be an Obamacultist. Someone that preaches how we are all to be tolerant. Someone that pontificates acceptances of other's beliefs.
> 
> But no, she has to mock someone's deep and sincere beliefs. Pathetic


 Boy, did you have to dig deep to find something to complain about. When someone tells you, in effect, "I'm going to heaven and you're not, neener neener," how are you supposed to answer? "Oh, I'm so happy for you?" or "Please take me with you?" "Whatever" isn't mocking; it just shows lack of interest, and it's certainly less callous than "You're obviously nuts," which could have been the response. It simply indicates "You believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want."

In fact, what would _you_ say to someone who tells you she's going to heaven and you're not?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Yes. Can you imagine the 'outrage' if any person that has deeply Christian religious beliefs said 'whatever' to someone of the Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Native American..... beliefs?


Outrage? You really _are_ nuts. I'd just shrug it off, and I suspect most other people would, too, whatever their beliefs. You simply wanted an excuse to use your dumb, irrelevant O word.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Your choice. After you are dead no turning back.


My, your God is a virtual font of understanding, love, and compassion.

Hint: Ask him to whip you up some earplugs. You'll need them to block out the screams of all the men, women, and children who lived and died before about 33 AD.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Then why do they always say that good works are not what saves a person, but belief in Jesus?


Because that is what the _Bible_ teaches everyone who reads and understands what they read.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> My, your God is a virtual font of understanding, love, and compassion.
> 
> Hint: Ask him to whip you up some earplugs. You'll need them to block out the screams of all the men, women, and children who lived and died before about 33 AD.


I won't be hearing anything but Praises for my King. Sorry that will be you hearing the crying, screaming lashing of the teeth. The righteous before the death of Jesus are in Heaven. He went to hell and took them out of Paradise. Don't you know? You are a Catholic or so you say.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Ah, they'll say anything.


And already have.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> How do you know what I do or not do?
> 
> Works do not save you! First comes faith, then works. The works need to be done in Jesus name. Then the individual is responsible to see that the money or items you give or the work you do is to glorify God.
> 
> ...


Joey - ignore "it"; just another plea for attention.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> Matthew 6
> 
> King James Version (KJV)
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting some beautiful scripture!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

maysmom said:


> You sure made a babbling reply to a one-word post. "Whatever" doesn't mean "idiot," "delusional," or "absolutely right." Of course, you had to toss Obama in there.


Maysmom, you said exactly what I wanted to say, and in many fewer words. I don't even have to write any more.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Happy Valentine's Day, Everyone!


You as well Gerslay! Look what I'm wearing  :roll:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

damemary said:


> I think his cover is blown and like all big bullies he will vanish when the going gets tough.


HA! Change "his" and "he" to "her" and "she." I thought you were talking about what happened after the exchange last night where Vocal admitted, again, she *is* Jody and Cheeky.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I won't be hearing anything but Praises for my King. Sorry that will be you hearing the crying, screaming lashing of the teeth. The righteous before the death of Jesus are in Heaven. He went to hell and took them out of Paradise. Don't you know? You are a Catholic or so you say.


Out of sight, out of mind, I guess.

Seriously, _where _ do you get this stuff? Do you really feel that a loving and merciful God would let His children burn for even one second just because they happened to live before Christ? As a Catholic I was taught that for all we know Hell is completely empty and always has been. Only He can judge who deserves eternal damnation--and I doubt that includes people unfortunate enough to be born in the wrong time and/or place.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Out of sight, out of mind, I guess.
> 
> Seriously, _where _ do you get this stuff? Do you really feel that a loving and merciful God would let His children burn for even one second just because they happened to live before Christ? As a Catholic I was taught that for all we know Hell is completely empty and always has been. Only He can judge who deserves eternal damnation--and I doubt that includes people unfortunate enough to be born in the wrong time and/or place.[/quote.
> 
> No Susan I don't think God sends anyone to hell. They send themselves. Like I said a million times your choice.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Your chose. Heaven or hell.
> 
> John 3:16
> 
> 16 pFor God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten qSon, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


You may not understand this, but quoting from a book that most people see as allegory and fiction will never convince them.

I'm more likely to be swayed by "'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe" than by John 3:16, or any other number you choose.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> You may not understand this, but quoting from a book that most people see as allegory and fiction will never convince them.
> 
> I'm more likely to be swayed by "'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe" than by John 3:16, or any other number you choose.


Left asked me questions and I answered. I understand perfect. Your choice Heaven or Hell.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Tsk tsk, being judgmental again, and your judgment is wrong again. But I will commend you on consistency.


Oh, I forgot to mention when I wrote prior, NJG will always "look down her big nose" at everyone as she judges them, too. Every. single. time. (or so she says)


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

NJG said:


> The democrats have decided to try to bring a discharge petition to bring raising the minimum wage and immigration to the floor of the house without Boehner. What are the odds that it will work? I think immigration will be harder than minimum wage, but you have to give them credit for trying. Sounds like they are done letting the tea party control everything. Weather it works or not the American people will know who is working for them because the majority of the people want a raise in the minimum wage, and if the republicans thing they can get minorities to vote for them, this should remove all doubt from their minds. They won't. Everyone knows the republicans work for those that sign the checks on the front and the democrats work for those that sign the checks on the back.


The Democrats are doing such marvelous work for the back of the check signers that they are getting poorer and poorer. and becoming more and more dependent on government entitlements. Meanwhile, their pockets are getting fuller and fuller. I don't see that as something to brag about.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Boy, did you have to dig deep to find something to complain about. When someone tells you, in effect, "I'm going to heaven and you're not, neener neener," how are you supposed to answer? "Oh, I'm so happy for you?" or "Please take me with you?" "Whatever" isn't mocking; it just shows lack of interest, and it's certainly less callous than "You're obviously nuts," which could have been the response. It simply indicates "You believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want."
> 
> In fact, what would _you_ say to someone who tells you she's going to heaven and you're not?


NJG stated "one" word in that particular post. NJG always has plenty to say, if you choose to read her posts, ALWAYS telling everyone exactly what she thinks of them.

Her actions and words have future consequences, as do everyone's.

Instead of mocking and judging and insulting everyone directly or indirectly, NJG could simply say she didn't believe as "X" does.

Instead, she'll write hate about, insult and judge 'to' someone or everyone.

In answer to your final question, why not answer "tell me more about why you feel or believe that."

BTW: That is _exactly_ what the true Christians on this thread, me included, are doing. Think about it.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Outrage? You really _are_ nuts. I'd just shrug it off, and I suspect most other people would, too, whatever their beliefs. You simply wanted an excuse to use your dumb, irrelevant O word.


Complete reversal of what you just wrote in the post above to LTL on page 128. Guess that makes you _nuts._


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

joeysomma said:


> I did not say that Obamacare is illegal. (_Actually the only thing the Supreme Court has said is that charging a penalty for not having insurance is legal, since it is a tax_).


Blah, blah blah..

You're backpedaling. The point is the GOP used their best shot at trying to prove that that Obamacare was "illegal/unconstitutional" and they lost.

People like you keep insisting on illegalities that not only are never proven, but have in fact been UPHELD in a court of law.



> What I said is, that what Obama has done with it is illegal. His job is to enforce the laws, as written, passed by Congress. He cannot decide which part of the law he will enforce and what he can change to whatever he wants.


More ignorant RW talking points.

He's not refusing to enforce the law, he's just changed the timing of when it will be enforced which is perfectly within the purview of his powers as POTUS.



> He has exempted several groups from having Obamacare


There's no such thing as "having Obamacare". Obamacare is not a "thing" you can have.

So when you learn the basics of what Obamacare is and what it isn't, maybe we can have an intellectual discussion about it.

Otherwise, it's quite clear you're C&Ping FauxNews talking points without the SLIGHTEST understanding for what you're saying.

But in general, you seem to not understand the exemption rules and how and why they are applied. And that "He" didn't exempt those groups, the were exempted based on the rules already in place regarding who is exempt and who isn't. When there's a "gray area" as to whether there's an exemption, it's within the power of the executive branch to make decisions regarding the "grayness" of these areas.



> But he won't exempt the Little Sisters of the Poor for a rule that is in direct opposition to the Bill of Rights.


What's against the Bill of Rights is discrimination and/or equal protection under the law. The Little Sisters of the Poor do not have "special rights" to discriminate against women and prevent them from getting medical care. Just like religious institutions can't just let children die because "their religious conscience" against medical care tells them to. The "religious conscience" guarantee, does not give religious institutions the power to deny other people THEIR Constitutional rights.

The Little Sisters are not being forced to engage in anything that goes against their Religious conscience. They are "inventing" new "religious conscience" issues, pretending that by merely applying for and/or signing off on the exemption is against their religious conscience. Completely dishonest and unreasonable.

But, it is against the law for the Little Sisters to actively deny OTHER'S _their_ "religious conscience" choices. And when there is a clash of "rights", it is within the purview of the executive branch to decide which "rights" take precedence.

And sorry, the right for women NOT to be denied access to health care COMPLETELY and OBVIOUSLY supersedes the Nun's bullcrap "right" to not sign a piece of paper which merely guarantees their religious conscience right.



> It has been reported he has violated the law in changing it 27 times.


No, it's has not been reported ONCE by any _REPUTABLE_ news organization that uses facts and/or has even a MODICUM amount of intellectual honesty.

Will there be some gray areas in such a complicated system that need sorting out by people of good conscience who have honest disagreements on how the laws should be applied? Of course.

That has absolutely NOTHING to do with breaking any laws.

It seems you and people like you define "illegal" as anything Obama may do that you simply disagree with.

You're just about literally arguing that it's illegal to disagree with the GOP.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I won't be hearing anything but Praises for my King. Sorry that will be you hearing the crying, screaming lashing of the teeth. The righteous before the death of Jesus are in Heaven. He went to hell and took them out of Paradise. Don't you know? You are a Catholic or so you say.


No Catholic there, CB. It has said so and proves it to be so.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> The Democrats are doing such marvelous work for the back of the check signers that they are getting poorer and poorer. and becoming more and more dependent on government entitlements. Meanwhile, their pockets are getting fuller and fuller. I don't see that as something to brag about.


soloweygirl
you are forgetting that people risk their lives evey second to become part of our democracy. 
Are you and I in the same Country, the USA? You know absolutely nothing about the function of our Democracy. Learn what Democracy is all about and PLEASE learn about the teachings of Christianity. You are in a vacuum on both subjects.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Out of sight, out of mind, I guess.
> 
> Seriously, where do you get this stuff? Do you really feel that a loving and merciful God would let His children burn for even one second just because they happened to live before Christ? As a Catholic I was taught that for all we know Hell is completely empty and always has been. Only He can judge who deserves eternal damnation--and I doubt that includes people unfortunate enough to be born in the wrong time and/or place.





Country Bumpkin said:


> No Susan I don't think God sends anyone to hell. They send themselves. Like I said a million times your choice.


She was a poor student; I've never heard anyone teach what she "learned." Just another made up tale.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

VocalLisa said:


> Blah, blah blah..
> 
> You're backpedaling. The point is the GOP used their best shot at trying to prove that that Obamacare was "illegal/unconstitutional" and they lost.
> 
> People like you keep insisting on illegalities that not only are never proven, but have in fact been UPHELD in a court of law.


VocalLisa
no matter how we feed them with truthful information, they insist on lies.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I am from the ladies on the right . I have always tried to help you understand that if you don't accept Jesus you are not saved. It takes believing that Jesus is the Son of God and you have to ask forgiveness.
> Yes you should try to be Christ like but we are still in our flesh so we are not perfect we have flaws. We admit we fail daily that is why we are so proud to have Jesus as our Savior.
> Nothing would make me happier to have all of you go to Heaven. We want that for you. You all take what we are saying (Spiritual ) as a threat and want to argue.


Do not preach to me. My beliefs are just that, my beliefs and I don't try to push them onto anyone else. People who are constantly trying to proselytize to others have proven to me that they do not live their life the way they are trying to make you believe they do. I think you are a phony.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You are right you will be in total darkness if you don't accept Jesus. Only 2 choices Heaven or Hell . I chose Heaven. In total darkness you will still know that the Great I Am is God, that will be the worst hell knowing that you have been told the Truth and you believed a lie.


You are a phony


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

NJG said:


> Do not preach to me. My beliefs are just that, my beliefs and I don't try to push them onto anyone else. People who are constantly trying to proselytize to others have proven to me that they do not live their life the way they are trying to make you believe they do. I think you are a phony.


Don't ask me questions if you don't want me to talk back. You sure have blown your opinions all over the internet. I don't care what you think of me. It is what God thinks of me that matters. You have no idea how I live my life. Aren't you one of the ones that says not to judge? I am forgiven so that is all that matters . I am not perfect just FORGIVEN. You are the one that started the spiritual blast on Joeysomma and my post.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> She was a poor student; I've never heard anyone teach what she "learned." Just another made up tale.


Hmm..sounds like you're bucking to be the test subject for who really deserves to be tossed in. Keep us posted--best take along a cell phone and a fire extinguisher.


----------



## Jokim (Nov 22, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> susanmos2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Out of sight, out of mind, I guess.
> ...


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Oh, I forgot to mention when I wrote prior, NJG will always "look down her big nose" at everyone as she judges them, too. Every. single. time. (or so she says)


You have got to stop that KPG. You have a title as hypocrite and you are always looking down your nose at others and criticizing people for lack of education and being lazy, etc. You can't give that away. It is yours.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> The Democrats are doing such marvelous work for the back of the check signers that they are getting poorer and poorer. and becoming more and more dependent on government entitlements. Meanwhile, their pockets are getting fuller and fuller. I don't see that as something to brag about.


Did you hear the two big news stories yesterday? (maybe it was Weds.)

Specifically about Ray Nagin and Senator Rand Paul.

For those reading from other countries, or don't know:

Ray Nagin was the mayor of New Orleans and a member of the Dem political party.

During Hurrican Katrina, Ray initially refused the multiple offers of the USA President, Bush (Rep) for resources, food, water, shelter and transportation, National Guard, assistance, etc., for the thousands of families and members of the community where the levies overflowed and Katrina caused devastation upon that historical city. The city and hundreds who lived there still suffer today.

Ray Nagin was found guilty of 20 of 21 charges brought against him in a court of law. He was found guilty of Conspiracy, guilty on 5 counts of Bribery, 9 counts of Wire Fraud guilt, guilty of Money Laundering, and 4 guilty verdicts of filing false tax returns.

Each charge carries 3-10 years I believe. Ray will not ever again see the light of day IF the sentencing allows justice to be served.

Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

Meanwhile, U.S. Senator Rand Paul (Rep), filed the largest class-action lawsuit on behalf of US citizens and their rights against President Obama and the present administration (and other folks) for not upholding the laws and amendments of the USA which protect all American citizens from illegally listening in or taping the communications of citizens without an issued and individually named court warrant. (the NSA on-going scandal of illegal tactics proven to be ineffective)

Again, Rand, is fighting for the citizens of the USA and our rights and freedoms!


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Don't ask me questions if you don't want me to talk back. You sure have blown your opinions all over the internet. I don't care what you think of me. It is what God thinks of me that matters. You have no idea how I live my life. Aren't you one of the ones that says not to judge? I am forgiven so that is all that matters . I am not perfect just FORGIVEN. You are the one that started the spiritual blast on Joeysomma and my post.


You have to admit that you're no great shakes as a missionary, CB. Efforts to proselytize may or may not be successful, but they aren't supposed to annoy. You're clearly taking the wrong approach.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> The Democrats are doing such marvelous work for the back of the check signers that they are getting poorer and poorer. and becoming more and more dependent on government entitlements. Meanwhile, their pockets are getting fuller and fuller. I don't see that as something to brag about.


The democrats are trying to help the poor, but the republicans are the ones that cut food stamps and won't raise the minimum wage. The republicans have always given all the tax cuts to the wealthy and to hell with the rest. That is a proven fact so your statements are ridiculous.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> You have to admit that you're no great shakes as a missionary, CB. Efforts to proselytize may or may not be successful, but they aren't supposed to annoy. You're clearly taking the wrong approach.


 I don't take your advice remember. Why should I from a heathen?


----------



## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> soloweygirl
> you are forgetting that people risk their lives evey second to become part of our democracy.
> Are you and I in the same Country, the USA? You know absolutely nothing about the function of our Democracy. Learn what Democracy is all about and PLEASE learn about the teachings of Christianity. You are in a vacuum on both subjects.


The United States is a Republic not a Democracy. " And to the Republic for which it stands,"


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I don't take your advice remember. Why should I from a heathen?


Maybe to understand why your success rate is an astounding zero percent?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:



> Maybe to understand why your success rate is an astounding zero percent?


 Maybe God has harden your hearts. Not my fault you won't listen to the Gospel. Your attacks on me mean nothing to me. Your waste of time. You must have plenty of it to waste. Just remember your choice. Heaven or hell.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

galinipper said:


> The United States is a Republic not a Democracy. " And to the Republic for which it stands,"


That is the truth!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I don't take your advice remember. Why should I from a heathen?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## galinipper (Apr 30, 2013)

NJG said:


> The democrats are trying to help the poor, but the republicans are the ones that cut food stamps and won't raise the minimum wage. The republicans have always given all the tax cuts to the wealthy and to hell with the rest. That is a proven fact so your statements are ridiculous.


Both parties line their pockets. They lie, steal, barter and sell their souls to hold on to power, retirement, freebies and prestige. We enable them, we've given them to much power. They (both sides) need to step back and give the Government back to the people that have earned it. JMO


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Don't ask me questions if you don't want me to talk back. You sure have blown your opinions all over the internet. I don't care what you think of me. It is what God thinks of me that matters. You have no idea how I live my life. Aren't you one of the ones that says not to judge? I am forgiven so that is all that matters . I am not perfect just FORGIVEN. You are the one that started the spiritual blast on Joeysomma and my post.


If I ask you a question, then answer it, but don't preach to me. There is a difference. You are on the same level as the door knockers when I slam the door in their face. I believe in God, but it is my belief and I don't want to hear what you believe.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Maybe God has harden your hearts. Not my fault you won't listen to the Gospel. Your attacks on me mean nothing to me. Your waste of time. You must have plenty of it to waste. Just remember your choice. Heaven or hell.


Sorry, CB--Christian missionaries are supposed to be effective "fishers of men". And while He probably doesn't expect 100% success He might have a thing or two to say to folks who use words and attitudes like scissors to cut holes in their own nets.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

NJG said:


> When you get your law degree, I might take the time to read your crap. Otherwise I am sure it is the same crap you have been saying over and over again. If he tries to fix something, he is breaking the law. If he doesn't try to fix it, he is breaking the law, so why listen to anything you have to say.


Her whole argument boils down to "_If anyone (especially Obama and all non-Aryans) does anything contrary to what the Teabaggers want - it's illegal_".

They think it's literally illegal to oppose the Tea Party. Even the Mitch McConnell is a criminal if he doesn't proverbially stick his face in and "motorboat" their Teabags and thank them for the opportunity.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

NJG said:


> If I ask you a question, then answer it, but don't preach to me. There is a difference. You are on the same level as the door knockers when I slam the door in their face. I believe in God, but it is my belief and I don't want to hear what you believe.


I must tell you the truth because I don't want you to spent eternal life in hell. It is the Great Commission to go forth to spread the Gospel . Just want the best for you. Jesus is the One knocking at your door not me.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry, CB--Christian missionaries are supposed to be effective "fishers of men". And while He probably doesn't expect 100% success He might have a thing or two to say to folks who use words and attitudes like scissors to cut holes in their own nets.


I never said I was a missionary. You always put words in others mouth. How do you know how many fish I have caught? You are judging again. I am a Child of God and He doesn't like it when someone messes with His children. Remember the bear coming out of the woods eating someone that made fun of them being bald.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I don't take your advice remember. Why should I from a heathen?


Um, "heathen" is in the eye of the beholder. Followers of Islam consider followers of other faiths heathen.

There are many of us who are moderate in our religious fervor but live as virtuous a life as possible, obeying the ten commandments, obeying the Golden Rule, obeying the law of the land (and in countries fortunate enough to be democracies, republics, or other free political structures, voting to change the law or the lawmakers through peaceful electoral means if the majority so chooses), who work to make the world we know a better place. It is as simple as doing random acts of kindness. It is as simple as being non judgmental of our fellows with different belief systems.

Until proven otherwise, Bibles, whether the Torah or the New Testament, were written by humans after the fact of occurrence. Could the stories be allegories guiding us to be kinder people, better parents, more honorable leaders of others? How can any of us humans profess to know! What arrogance leads people to proclaim their belief system as superior to any other. I feel sorry for people who are so close minded to anybody else's right to their beliefs so long as they do no harm to others. Stiff necked religion, whether extreme Orthodox Judaism, Fundamentalist Christianity, or Radical Islam tend to drive away thinking people and attract insecure people who do not trust their own intelligence. And one of the comments attributed to G-d (not to take H-s name in vain) was not to be stiff necked.

Then on to New Jersey politics.

Perhaps the truth about Bridgegate will come out some day. The more stone walling being done, the more people will doubt the veracity and integrity of the Governor.

He has not endeared himself to teachers, tax payers, the non rich in general. Beside demonizing teachers to draw attention away from illegally not funding public employee pension plans, his policies have caused property taxes to sneak higher.

The looting of the pension plans began with the prior Governor Christie, Christine Todd Whitman, who tried to take 8 billion (yeah, with a B) of funding which would have kept the plan solvent without further cost to the taxpayers. Eventually she had to return funds - about 7 billion. Don't ask where the other billion disappeared to.

It was extremely amusing when she was running for Governor, she started attending AAUW meetings in her county all of a sudden. Never had before. Never has since, either to the best of my knowledge. I haven't been able to afford the dues since I retired.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

damemary said:


> Cindy S said:
> 
> 
> > Just makes me think she is a teenage brat sitting in a basement hiding behind her mommy's computer screen. All of her snarky remarks followed by groveling trying to get the recipients of those remarks to call a truce is very childish
> ...


I already told her anyway that if she doesn't unconditionally take personal responsibility for having threatened another member of this board -- then her call for a truce is insincere and unreasonable.

All she had to do from the beginning is say "You know what, I probably was wrong to do what I did, I apologize and hope that we can move on civily from here" ...

I honestly would've let the whole thing go.

But as long as she continues to justify her bullying tactic of trying to entice others on this board to look up the personal information of another member of this board, giving them clues on how to go about it successfully... then SHE has chosen to create the conditions upon which a truce is not logistically possible and has absolutely no right to complain when she's simply given a taste of her own medicine.

As long as she refuses to take FULL unconditional personal responsibility for her own actions I reserve the right to call her out on her behavior in whatever creative, within guidelines methods I deem necessary.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Yes KPG, I heard about Ray Nagin and I agree, it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. He got what he deserved. As far as Rand Paul and his lawsuit there is some question about the lawyers and plagiarism. I will have to read about that again. I think Rand has had a problem with that before, hasn't he? Yes he is fighting for himself, cause if he looks good he can run for president. Yippe

Did you hear the latest about Governor Christy, republican Governor Christy? He used money that had been appropriated for a tunnel to fix roads. He had to lie to make it happen, but hey it is just millions of dollars and he is governor after all. 
Did you hear that Governor Pat McCrory, republican Governor Pat McCrory is being investigated. When you work for Duke Energy for 28 years and then become governor, that doesn't mean you can give special treatment to Duke Energy. They just never learn do they? Just like Governor Bob McDonald, republican Governor Bob McDonald, indicted on federal corruption. There sure is a lot of news isn't there KPG.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I must tell you the truth because I don't want you to spent eternal life in hell. It is the Great Commission to go forth to spread the Gospel . Just want the best for you. Jesus is the One knocking at your door not me.


Whatever.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

joeysomma said:


> I'm sure I know more about the law than you do. I have started a labor union, wrote the first contract, have had a real estate license, and have worked on two estates being the executor of one and prepare taxes. I have also had graduate classes in school law. I have chosen not to go forward in studying for a law degree since I would hate to be forced to defend someone as yourself.


That's just stupid. Why would you be "forced" to defend someone? Become a prosecutor.

I think you didn't go forward in studying because you flunked out. Just as your "disinformation posts" show your ignorance here, I'm betting so too did your GPA.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> I'm sure I know more about the law than you do. I have started a labor union, wrote the first contract, have had a real estate license, and have worked on two estates being the executor of one and prepare taxes. I have also had graduate classes in school law. I have chosen not to go forward in studying for a law degree since I would hate to be forced to defend someone as yourself.


"For every one who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

joeysomma said:


> The one thing I am not, is insecure. I KNOW where I am going when I pass away. I am a sinner saved by grace. That makes me very secure!.


Pride and Vanity are deadly sins (_especially when it's uncalled for_). Something you quite CLEARLY have not managed. You quite obviously are as likely to go to Hell as anyone else here on this board. In fact, MORE likely.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

After reading all the bible quotes of the last several hours on this thread, I am pretty sure I could skip church this Sunday and bible study next Wednesday


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The one thing I am not, is insecure. I KNOW where I am going when I pass away. I am a sinner saved by grace. That makes me very secure!.


I think it would be a great idea to examine some of the TP/conservative beliefs you hold before you become too secure---without rationalizing your viewpoints to fit the gospel.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

BrattyPatty said:


> You dare to make God's decision? It isn't it He who will decide where you go?


The irony of her declaring she's going to be with God in this post is that she was committing deadly sins AS she was doing it.

Serious hypocritical delusions of grandeur!!


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

lovethelake said:


> Classic callus statement from someone that is proud to be an Obamacultist. Someone that preaches how we are all to be tolerant.


How was that not tolerant? She said "whatever" and went on her way. That's pretty much the definition of tolerant. And she did NOT mock anyone's _sincere_ beliefs.

BTW, when people say we should be tolerant... it should go without saying that we need not tolerate evil and willful ignorance.

I do not and will not tolerate hateful willfully ignorant hypocritical bullies any more than I will tolerate child molesters.

I will tolerate just about any "sinner" who at least is earnestly trying to do and be better.

People like you clearly do not fall into that category.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Did you hear the two big news stories yesterday? (maybe it was Weds.)
> 
> Specifically about Ray Nagin and Senator Rand Paul.
> 
> ...


Thanks, KPG. Nagin certainly deserves what he gets. Another case of a city not preparing for a storm they were warned about for days and then did all they could to blame the Republicans.

The 8 Democrats that are up for reelection in the Senate are whining about the campaign ads being aired by their opponents. It seems that these Democrats want the IRS to investigate the groups backing their opponents. They want the IRS to do what it is already under investigation for doing. You just can't make this stuff up. Also, Senator Shumer is out there stating basically the same thing. He's saying all conservative and Tea Party groups should be investigated. I wonder how many skeletons he has in his closet? Typical behavior.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Dare I use her favorite word to describe her? "Hypocrite!" :-D


You can, but since it doesn't apply in this case, that would be moot.

Again, people who preach tolerance, are not preaching BLIND tolerance.

I have no tolerance for child molesters as I have no tolerance for willful selfishness and ignorance.

And given willful selfishness and ignorance are the primary prerequisites for being a right winger ...


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

galinipper said:


> The United States is a Republic not a Democracy. " And to the Republic for which it stands,"


Now Gali, don't confuse Huckleberry with facts. She's not very good with them.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

theyarnlady said:


> Nope not surprises just promises , if you believe in Jesus Christ you will be save.


It takes more than just believing in Jesus Christ to be "save".


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

galinipper said:


> Both parties line their pockets. They lie, steal, barter and sell their souls to hold on to power, retirement, freebies and prestige. We enable them, we've given them to much power. They (both sides) need to step back and give the Government back to the people that have earned it. JMO


It is not that we have given them power. Remember, they write the laws and have written them to benefit themselves. Nobody seems to come out of a national political career poor. They have voted themselves health care for life and excellent pensions. Since the candidates offered to us are chosen by the large national political parties, we only see small party candidates who maybe, perhaps, are independent thinkers. You know what kind of chance they have to be elected. Doubt we will see another Theodore Roosevelt. What ever did happen to the Bull Moose Party? I think the last viable Independent Party candidate was Ross Perot. He had the funds to run a campaign but still fell short.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

joeysomma said:


> How do you know what I do or not do?


We know what you do here and it's self-evident that whether your faith is true or not, you have a serious problem with the "works" part.

In fact, I don't think someone's faith CAN be true if they are so actively and willfully ignorant, sinful and prideful and vain.

Ignorance combined with vanity and pride is a powerfully odious and poisonous concoction when it comes to Sinning IMO.

There's a HUGE difference between "knowing one's self" and pride/vanity, and sorry sweetie, it's quite obvious you are DEEPLY into the latter category.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Jokim said:


> Correct CB. We make choices that have eternal consequences. He gave us a choice, going all the way back to the Garden. We disobeyed and sin appeared on earth. Consequence of a choice. Catholic religion does not teach that hell is empty.


Does the Catholic religion teach people how to make up rotten names for the President's wife and use it all over KP?


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Thanks, KPG. Nagin certainly deserves what he gets. Another case of a city not preparing for a storm they were warned about for days and then did all they could to blame the Republicans.
> 
> The 8 Democrats that are up for reelection in the Senate are whining about the campaign ads being aired by their opponents. It seems that these Democrats want the IRS to investigate the groups backing their opponents. They want the IRS to do what it is already under investigation for doing. You just can't make this stuff up. Also, Senator Shumer is out there stating basically the same thing. He's saying all conservative and Tea Party groups should be investigated. I wonder how many skeletons he has in his closet? Typical behavior.


Well, Bush did have to take some responsibility for how things were done. Those people left in the dome with no help, and "you're doing a heck of a job Brownie." Yes Bush dropped thee ball.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Did you hear the two big news stories yesterday? (maybe it was Weds.)
> 
> Specifically about Ray Nagin and Senator Rand Paul.
> 
> ...


Somebody, please, get me a shovel!


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Thanks, KPG. Nagin certainly deserves what he gets. Another case of a city not preparing for a storm they were warned about for days and then did all they could to blame the Republicans.
> 
> The 8 Democrats that are up for reelection in the Senate are whining about the campaign ads being aired by their opponents. It seems that these Democrats want the IRS to investigate the groups backing their opponents. They want the IRS to do what it is already under investigation for doing. You just can't make this stuff up. Also, Senator Shumer is out there stating basically the same thing. He's saying all conservative and Tea Party groups should be investigated. I wonder how many skeletons he has in his closet? Typical behavior.


Whining about campaign ads. Well one reason might be that their opponents aren't running the adds, the Koch Brothers are running them. Some of the ads on line were made to look like they were asking for money to promote the democrat, but when you read the fine print it said donate to defeat this person. They had to refund some money because they were so deceptive. Can you imagine what republicans would be saying if the democrats had been the ones doing that? They would have been outraged, but love doing it themselves. Hypocrites.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> No Catholic there, CB. It has said so and proves it to be so.


So now, without knowing the person, KPG is able to judge from afar who is and who is not a Catholic!!
One thing I can say for KPG is that she doesn't lack confidence, even as she makes a fool of herself.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Susanmos said: As a Catholic I was taught that for all we know Hell is completely empty and always has been.


That is a lie (just like the phrase 'If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor').


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

NJG said:


> Yes KPG, I heard about Ray Nagin and I agree, it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. He got what he deserved. As far as Rand Paul and his lawsuit there is some question about the lawyers and plagiarism. I will have to read about that again. I think Rand has had a problem with that before, hasn't he? Yes he is fighting for himself, cause if he looks good he can run for president. Yippe
> 
> Did you hear the latest about Governor Christy, republican Governor Christy? He used money that had been appropriated for a tunnel to fix roads. He had to lie to make it happen, but hey it is just millions of dollars and he is governor after all.
> Did you hear that Governor Pat McCrory, republican Governor Pat McCrory is being investigated. When you work for Duke Energy for 28 years and then become governor, that doesn't mean you can give special treatment to Duke Energy. They just never learn do they? Just like Governor Bob McDonald, republican Governor Bob McDonald, indicted on federal corruption. There sure is a lot of news isn't there KPG.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Jokim (Nov 22, 2011)

galinipper said:


> Both parties line their pockets. They lie, steal, barter and sell their souls to hold on to power, retirement, freebies and prestige. We enable them, we've given them to much power. They (both sides) need to step back and give the Government back to the people that have earned it. JMO


Right you are, Gali! :thumbup:


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## Jokim (Nov 22, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Does the Catholic religion teach people how to make up rotten names for the President's wife and use it all over KP?


What ever is full of hate does not come from God. God is love. There is also evil in this world, as is becoming more and more apparent.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Susanmos said: As a Catholic I was taught that for all we know Hell is completely empty and always has been.
> 
> That is a lie (just like the phrase 'If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor').


Sorry, toots--that's what the gal who prepared us for Confirmation said. Seems reasonable to me. Hell might be packed to the rafters--and then again, it might be a vast echoing chamber still awaiting its first inmate. Only He knows for sure.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry, toots--that's what the gal who prepared us for Confirmation said. Seems reasonable to me. Hell might be packed to the rafters--and then again, it might be a vast echoing chamber still awaiting its first inmate. Only He knows for sure.


Wait. Don't be so quick to correct her. Maybe she knows what she's talking about. Someone could have told her to go to hell, and she took it literally.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Wait. Don't be so quick to correct her. Maybe she knows what she's talking about. Someone could have told her to go to hell, and she took it literally.


Could be. If so she should partner up with KPG, who seems hell-bent (pun intended) on finding out for herself.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

In fact, what would you say to someone who tells you she's going to heaven and you're not?


"You have been very thoroughly indoctrinated. Have a nice day."


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Maybe God has harden your hearts. Not my fault you won't listen to the Gospel. Your attacks on me mean nothing to me. Your waste of time. You must have plenty of it to waste. Just remember your choice. Heaven or hell.


Please tell me why a merciful god would harden anyone's heart? Wouldn't he or she want everyone to enter paradise?


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Maybe God has harden your hearts. Not my fault you won't listen to the Gospel. Your attacks on me mean nothing to me. Your waste of time. You must have plenty of it to waste. Just remember your choice. Heaven or hell.


Please tell me why a merciful god would harden anyone's heart? Wouldn't he or she want everyone to enter paradise?


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

oops, double post. Anyhow, here is some food for thought, referring to writings in the old testament:

I am the child who, after the flood swallowed my parents and my siblings, clung to the side of rock as the waves took me and I drowned in fear and terror.

I am the mother clutching her newborn trying to run as the force of a spear entering my rib cage throws me forward and sends my child tumbling onto the ground screaming. My last memories are of watching my sweet child scream out for his mother as a sword silenced his voice and then mine.

I am the woman that was stoned to death for being raped and not screaming loud enough for help, according to the Law of Moses.

I am the child whom Davids God caused to suffer in agony and sickness for seven days and then killed to teach my father a lesson.

I am the Amalekite child who watched as my family was slaughtered. 

I am the Canaanite girl who was carried off into slavery and forced to marry my familys murderer.

I never heard of this thing called mercy. I never received a message of love and kindness. There was no forgiveness for me, no golden rule. If I could wonder, I would ask myself what it might feel like to be chosen by God. To have babies that aren't plucked from their mothers arms and put to the sword. 

If I could see the Christians praying to this God, I would stare in disbelief at the sight. I would ask them how they could ever worship such malevolent evil and call it good. With bewilderment I would ask in angered horror how you could ever imagine that you needed the forgiveness of such a monstrous affront to human decency and goodness.

My blood cries out from the pages of that Book you read with such devotion. I scream and you do not hear. I cry and you fail to see my tears. I was a person. I was a mother, a father, a son, a daughter, a wife, and husband. I mattered to someone and I loved and was loved. I wanted to live, but your God commanded my death and the death of my children. Now you quote the scriptures that glorify the violence of my death and call it inspirational.

If this is what you call love, no one can save you.

Of course, when I was still a believer and questioned the violence in the OT I was just told that the NT god is nicer and wouldn't do stuff like that anymore. But in the next breath they would say God never changes.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Susanmos said: As a Catholic I was taught that for all we know Hell is completely empty and always has been.
> 
> That is a lie (just like the phrase 'If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor').


Yes, we know she is Catholic, but how can you or KPG know what she was taught? Why would she invent what she was or was not taught?
.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Some rich dude, Tom Perkins, was just on tv saying his big idea is that you pay a million dollars in taxes, you should get a million votes. OMG, with citizens united, the wealthy already buy their politicians, and that isn't good enough for him, the a--hole. That would really make our votes count wouldn't it?


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> It takes more than just believing in Jesus Christ to be "save".


Only asking Him to forgive you and ask Him into your heart. John 3:16


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> Pride and Vanity are deadly sins (_especially when it's uncalled for_). Something you quite CLEARLY have not managed. You quite obviously are as likely to go to Hell as anyone else here on this board. In fact, MORE likely.


Only denying that Jesus is the Christ and Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit will send you to hell. Or taking the Mark of the Beast during the 7 years of tribulation.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Please tell me why a merciful god would harden anyone's heart? Wouldn't he or she want everyone to enter paradise?


He does want you to go to Heaven but lets you have your way after awhile. He just quits calling you .


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

NJG said:


> Some rich dude, Tom Perkins, was just on tv saying his big idea is that you pay a million dollars in taxes, you should get a million votes. OMG, with citizens united, the wealthy already buy their politicians, and that isn't good enough for him, the a--hole. That would really make our votes count wouldn't it?


Perkins was in San Francisco. He's a real winner!

Tom Perkins -- venture capitalist and co-founder of the VC firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers -- spoke with Fortune's Adam Lashinsky at San Francisco's Commonwealth Club Thursday night.

The event, entitled "The War on the 1%," focused on the issue of income inequality. Perkins, 82, not only revealed his opinions on social, fiscal, and monetary policy, but he also clarified his views on how taxes are being used as a weapon against the wealthy 1% as a whole.

Perkins' infamous Jan. 24 letter to the editor published in the Wall Street Journal compared modern discrimination against America's rich to Nazi Germany's treatment of the Jews. He also claimed that the 1% currently faces a "rising tide of hatred" akin to Kristallnacht. He has since apologized for his extreme comparison, and he said at the event, "Kristallnacht should never have been used. The Holocaust is incomparable." However, Perkins maintained his stance that the wealthy are persecuted, particularly in San Francisco where the Occupy movement, outrage over city gentrification, and protests against Google employee buses illustrate a "demonization of the rich."

Related: Watch the interview with Fortune's Adam Lashinsky

Ultimately, the biggest issue Perkins claimed to have with the treatment of the 1% is taxes. "I wouldn't say taxation is a form of persecution," he said. "But the extreme progressivism of the tax system is." He cited statistics about the tax contributions that wealthy Americans make -- including that the top 1% pays more taxes than the bottom 90% combined -- and said that the top 1% is carrying the government. "Government is a giant beast that has to be fed, and it's fed with taxes," he said. "And taxes will go up and up and up."

Related: The Super Rich are mad as hell - and doing great

Perkins pegged the problem of the American taxation system on failures in social, fiscal, and monetary policy. The income gap has roots in the War on Poverty, Perkins said, which he wished "had not been such a fiasco." He blamed Lyndon B. Johnson's social programs for an increase in out-of-wedlock birthrates and low-income single parent households. Fiscally, Perkins said that the government spends too much money on entitlement programs, an issue highlighted by the debt that the U.S. accrues as a result. "We're on a knife edge with this incredible debt that can't be paid back," Perkins said. Finally, Perkins' views on monetary policy were that historically low interest rates have led to a boom in tech startups. Which, according to Perkins, is a bad thing. "An incredible amount of money has flowed into venture capital," he said. So, when students drop out of college and move to Silicon Valley to start companies or design software, "There's so much money [in Silicon Valley], that they can keep failing and failing, so they aren't learning in college anymore."

Related: Sam Zell stands with Tom Perkins

Up until the evening of the event -- which Perkins said offstage will probably be his last -- the series of dramatic exchanges between Perkins and the press led Kleiner Perkins and other venture capitalists to distance themselves from his inflammatory statements. "Tom Perkins has not been involved in KPCB in years," Kleiner Perkins tweeted after the letter was published. "We were shocked by his views expressed today in the WSJ and do not agree." Perkins was disappointed by KPCB's response. "They could have chosen not to say anything, but instead they threw me under the bus," he said at the event.

Related: Investor apologizes for Nazi comparison, stands by message

When challenged to say, in 60 seconds, how he would change the world, Perkins made a playfully controversial response. He suggested that, in the tradition of Thomas Jefferson's voting land owners and Margaret Thatcher's idea of only allowing taxpayers to vote, "The Tom Perkins system is: You don't get the vote if you don't pay a dollar in taxes. But what I really think is it should be like a corporation. You pay a million dollars, you get a million votes. How's that?" To which the audience responded with laughter. Perkins later said offstage that what he meant was that, with 50% of registered U.S. voters not paying taxes, "we got ourselves into a mess."

Though Perkins apologized for the use of his Holocaust analogy, he did circle back to the reason for his original thinking at the event. "I think the parallel holds," he said. "The typical German had never met a Jew." To which Lashinsky suggested, "So perhaps the typical Occupy protester has never met someone who rides a Google bus."

The last question an audience member asked at the end of the event was what the 1% fears. While the Jews of Nazi Germany feared deportation and extermination, what was it that made Perkins afraid of "the war on the 1%?"

Perkins said the fear is higher taxes until there is no 1%. "It's an economic extinction, not a physical one."


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Jokim said:


> What ever is full of hate does not come from God. God is love. There is also evil in this world, as is becoming more and more apparent.


So the person who writes nasty things on KP about other KP'ers or our president and family, who calls others stupid and a fool, who constantly makes fun of others does not have love in her heart, and therefore no God? Just looking for an answer here . . . .


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

It is fascinating to learn what different people think about issues. Happy Valentine's Day to all who celebrate it, and to everyone regardless of their faith or lack of it, may every day be happy.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Perkins was in San Francisco. He's a real winner!
> 
> Tom Perkins -- venture capitalist and co-founder of the VC firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers -- spoke with Fortune's Adam Lashinsky at San Francisco's Commonwealth Club Thursday night.
> 
> ...


I really don't envy someone like that and wish I had all his money. I have thought many times of what I would do if I won the lottery and it is not to buy a huge house or two and 6 cars, since I can only drive one and live in one. I don't want to live with way more "stuff" than I need. I am living comfortable now that I am retired, but feel bad for all the poor and especially the children. I just wish that all the corporations would pay their employees a living wage so they could provide for their families. The problem is the corporations are making money because we are all buying their products and people are working for them to make those products. They are getting richer and the working people are making less, so what does that tell you? All that money is staying at the top. Yes they have a right to make money, but so do their employees. Since they are doing the work, can they not share in that wealth. That is the way it use to work. You are doing the job I am paying you to do, therefor when my income increases, I need to share that with you, because without you, I couldn't make this much money. That isn't happening anymore.

He says the top 1% pay more taxes than the bottom 90% combined. Well does that mean maybe, that is where the money is? That is what we have been saying--inequality is increasing and if it continues and the top 1% continues to get richer, that will not change. If the wages don't increase for the 99%, they will not pay more taxes


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> He does want you to go to Heaven but lets you have your way after awhile. He just quits calling you .


You didn't answer my question. Why would god "harden your heart?" Not "calling you" isn't the same as "hardening your heart."


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

maysmom said:


> You didn't answer my question. Why would god "harden your heart?" Not "calling you" isn't the same as "hardening your heart."


llel Verses
New International Version
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

New Living Translation
So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.

English Standard Version
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

New American Standard Bible
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

King James Bible
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
So then, He shows mercy to those He wants to, and He hardens those He wants to harden.

International Standard Version
Therefore, God has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses.

NET Bible
So then, God has mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy, and he hardens whom he chooses to harden.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
So then, he shows compassion on whomever he will, and whomever he will, he hardens.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Therefore, if God wants to be kind to anyone, he will be. If he wants to make someone stubborn, he will.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Therefore he has mercy on whom he will have mercy, and he hardens whom he will.

King James 2000 Bible
Therefore has he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardens.

American King James Version
Therefore has he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardens.

American Standard Version
So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Therefore he hath mercy on whom he will; and whom he will, he hardeneth.

Darby Bible Translation
So then, to whom he will he shews mercy, and whom he will he hardens.

English Revised Version
So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Webster's Bible Translation
Therefore he hath mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Weymouth New Testament
This is a proof that wherever He chooses He shows mercy, and wherever he chooses He hardens the heart.

World English Bible
So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires.

Young's Literal Translation
so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> The Rich Man and Lazarus
> 
> 19 There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[d] from the rich mans table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abrahams bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
> 
> ...


No go, Joey. I assume you sited this passage as proof that Hell is inhabited by at least one man. Fortunately Catholics have a more enlightened view of whether the Bible is to be taken literally.

This From AmericanCatholic.org:

"A questioner once asked me: Is it so bad that a Catholic becomes a biblical fundamentalist? Wouldn't a fundamentalist still believe in many basic doctrines of the Christian faith and have a solid moral code? The answer is yes, but biblical fundamentalism, despite what it can preserve, really distorts the challenge of Jesus Christ. It provides an absolute certainty based on a belief that every word in the Bible really has been dictated by God and one needs only hold to the literal meaning. It does not recognize that every word in the Bible, even though inspired by God, has been written by human beings who had limitations.

The message of the Incarnation is that there is no way to avoid the interplay of the divine and the human in approaching God. Biblical literalism, since it makes all divine, supplies a false certitude that often unconsciously confuses the human limitation with the divine message. A literalist interpretation destroys the very nature of the Bible as a human expression of divine revelation."


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Outrage? You really _are_ nuts. I'd just shrug it off, and I suspect most other people would, too, whatever their beliefs. You simply wanted an excuse to use your dumb, irrelevant O word.


I've had Christians, when they finally found out that they couldn't convert me actually say, "whatever" or more accurately, "whatever, have fun in hell". I didn't attack them, I usually ignored them. It doesn't matter to me because I'm not supposed to nor wish to convert others to my beliefs.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> No go, Joey. I assume you sited this passage as proof that Hell is inhabited by at least one man. Fortunately Catholics have a more enlightened view of whether the Bible is to be taken literally.
> 
> This From AmericanCatholic.org:
> 
> ...


I sent the message. I didn't post anything that I believed jusT scripture


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Please tell me why a merciful god would harden anyone's heart? Wouldn't he or she want everyone to enter paradise?


Good question, May. I'm truly astonished that some on this thread have an absolute need to believe that Hell is fully booked to the point where hanging a "No Vacancy" sign might be in order. One would assume that the possibility of every man and woman on earth finding the path to salvation would set the so-called Christian beating with joy, but instead it seems to fill them with dismay. My guess is that the fundamentalists don't believe they'll truly enjoy Heaven unless they know their personal enemies are being tortured with pitchforks and forced to drink boiling lava.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Then why do they always say that good works are not what saves a person, but belief in Jesus?


I had to explain this to my husband (raised catholic) one day. So here goes (what I was taught and was told to me by virtually every Christian I have discussed this with):

Accepting Jesus as your savior is your ticket to heaven. Period. You can do anything before or after you are saved and you still go. (although there are certain groups who believe that certain really horrible sins can make you lose your salvation).

If you are horrible after you are saved them during your "life review" in heaven you are shamed in front of everybody. (as a child we had a Sunday school class that they would give some kids paper crowns of thorns as an illustration)

If you did good works then during your "life review" in heaven you are congratulated in front of everybody. (during same sunday school class some kids had crowns put on their heads as an illustration)

So while good works are great they are not absolutely necessary since your faith in Jesus is all that is needed.

That is why you have so many Christians who do and say things that are truly horrible (I'm speaking of real life), because no matter what they do they still end up in heaven. This leads to a cockiness in certain people.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

alcameron said:


> "For every one who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

VocalLisa said:


> Pride and Vanity are deadly sins (_especially when it's uncalled for_). Something you quite CLEARLY have not managed. You quite obviously are as likely to go to Hell as anyone else here on this board. In fact, MORE likely.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

KP is a blessing in many ways.



Cindy S said:


> After reading all the bible quotes of the last several hours on this thread, I am pretty sure I could skip church this Sunday and bible study next Wednesday


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Whatever. (That phrase feels good to me. )



soloweygirl said:


> Thanks, KPG. Nagin certainly deserves what he gets. Another case of a city not preparing for a storm they were warned about for days and then did all they could to blame the Republicans.
> 
> The 8 Democrats that are up for reelection in the Senate are whining about the campaign ads being aired by their opponents. It seems that these Democrats want the IRS to investigate the groups backing their opponents. They want the IRS to do what it is already under investigation for doing. You just can't make this stuff up. Also, Senator Shumer is out there stating basically the same thing. He's saying all conservative and Tea Party groups should be investigated. I wonder how many skeletons he has in his closet? Typical behavior.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

A 'fact' having no meaning to the discussion? Yeah, don't 'confuse' me either. I prefer to discuss meaningful topics.

Whatever.



soloweygirl said:


> Now Gali, don't confuse Huckleberry with facts. She's not very good with them.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree.



VocalLisa said:


> We know what you do here and it's self-evident that whether your faith is true or not, you have a serious problem with the "works" part.
> 
> In fact, I don't think someone's faith CAN be true if they are so actively and willfully ignorant, sinful and prideful and vain.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Nope. That's the TP religion.

Flush.



alcameron said:


> Does the Catholic religion teach people how to make up rotten names for the President's wife and use it all over KP?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Shovel it right back.



alcameron said:


> Somebody, please, get me a shovel!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

NJG said:


> Whining about campaign ads. Well one reason might be that their opponents aren't running the adds, the Koch Brothers are running them. Some of the ads on line were made to look like they were asking for money to promote the democrat, but when you read the fine print it said donate to defeat this person. They had to refund some money because they were so deceptive. Can you imagine what republicans would be saying if the democrats had been the ones doing that? They would have been outraged, but love doing it themselves. Hypocrites.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: They really have no idea where the line is drawn.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> Whatever. (That phrase feels good to me. )


Me too. I like it. Means exactly what I want to say.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

alcameron said:


> So now, without knowing the person, KPG is able to judge from afar who is and who is not a Catholic!!
> One thing I can say for KPG is that she doesn't lack confidence, even as she makes a fool of herself.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:

That's why we can always know it's her even when she repeatedly changes her name. She's certainly consistent.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Is a nit-picker different than a nose-picker?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

damemary said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:
> 
> That's why we can always know it's her even when she repeatedly changes her name. She's certainly consistent.


Suzi! :|Snoozi


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

galinipper said:


> The United States is a Republic not a Democracy. " And to the Republic for which it stands,"


Just curious do you know the definition of a republic? I honestly don't know you well, so that's why I'm asking, not to insult or imply you don't but to honestly ask.

I do know, but I know the majority of the people who talk about the US being a republic don't actually know what it means but just uses the "it's a republic not a democracy" as a way to make others appear unlearned.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Wait. Don't be so quick to correct her. Maybe she knows what she's talking about. Someone could have told her to go to hell, and she took it literally.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'd accept a collect call to verify this one. How about you?



susanmos2000 said:


> Could be. If so she should partner up with KPG, who seems hell-bent (pun intended) on finding out for herself.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

maysmom said:


> In fact, what would you say to someone who tells you she's going to heaven and you're not?
> 
> "You have been very thoroughly indoctrinated. Have a nice day."


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'd accept a collect call to verify this one. How about you?


Works for me!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for the perspective. It touched at least one of us.



maysmom said:


> oops, double post. Anyhow, here is some food for thought, referring to writings in the old testament:
> 
> I am the child who, after the flood swallowed my parents and my siblings, clung to the side of rock as the waves took me and I drowned in fear and terror.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

What gives KPG and LTL the right to interfere regardless?



alcameron said:


> Yes, we know she is Catholic, but how can you or KPG know what she was taught? Why would she invent what she was or was not taught?
> .


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And they don't want to take away our guns? Bad strategy? Ask Louis and Marie Antoinette.



NJG said:


> Some rich dude, Tom Perkins, was just on tv saying his big idea is that you pay a million dollars in taxes, you should get a million votes. OMG, with citizens united, the wealthy already buy their politicians, and that isn't good enough for him, the a--hole. That would really make our votes count wouldn't it?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Perkins was in San Francisco. He's a real winner!
> 
> Tom Perkins -- venture capitalist and co-founder of the VC firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers -- spoke with Fortune's Adam Lashinsky at San Francisco's Commonwealth Club Thursday night.
> 
> ...


\

********************************************************
Economic Extinction? Quite frankly Scarlet, I don't give a damn.
********************************************************


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> After reading all the bible quotes of the last several hours on this thread, I am pretty sure I could skip church this Sunday and bible study next Wednesday


You are excused for the next two weeks, as long as you have a genuine, warm smile for everyone, including people who are different from you. We can all learn something from others if we only take the time to smile and be warm and genuine. Remember to speak to people, do not preach at them.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

alcameron said:


> So the person who writes nasty things on KP about other KP'ers or our president and family, who calls others stupid and a fool, who constantly makes fun of others does not have love in her heart, and therefore no God? Just looking for an answer here . . . .


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Please don't ask her to answer. You know what I mean.



maysmom said:


> You didn't answer my question. Why would god "harden your heart?" Not "calling you" isn't the same as "hardening your heart."


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Very interesting thoughts. Thanks.



susanmos2000 said:


> No go, Joey. I assume you sited this passage as proof that Hell is inhabited by at least one man. Fortunately Catholics have a more enlightened view of whether the Bible is to be taken literally.
> 
> This From AmericanCatholic.org:
> 
> ...


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> You are excused for the next two weeks, as long as you have a genuine, warm smile for everyone, including people who are different from you. We can all learn something from others if we only take the time to smile and be warm and genuine. Remember to speak to people, do not preach at them.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Good question, May. I'm truly astonished that some on this thread have an absolute need to believe that Hell is fully booked to the point where hanging a "No Vacancy" sign might be in order. One would assume that the possibility of every man and woman on earth finding the path to salvation would set the so-called Christian beating with joy, but instead it seems to fill them with dismay. My guess is that the fundamentalists don't believe they'll truly enjoy Heaven unless they know their personal enemies are being tortured with pitchforks and forced to drink boiling lava.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: It will be a pleasure to disappoint them.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I see no logic or hope in convoluted teachings. I learned the teachings by rote, was baptized and confirmed. As an adult, I think for myself and I'm at peace.



Lkholcomb said:


> I had to explain this to my husband (raised catholic) one day. So here goes (what I was taught and was told to me by virtually every Christian I have discussed this with):
> 
> Accepting Jesus as your savior is your ticket to heaven. Period. You can do anything before or after you are saved and you still go. (although there are certain groups who believe that certain really horrible sins can make you lose your salvation).
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

To me, there is a difference in changing once to try to escape threats, and changing your name multiple times to facilitate stalking. You, of course, are welcome to your own opinion.



Country Bumpkins said:


> Suzi! :|Snoozi


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Does the Catholic religion teach people how to make up rotten names for the President's wife and use it all over KP?


nope


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

A-a-a-men......all together.



EveMCooke said:


> You are excused for the next two weeks, as long as you have a genuine, warm smile for everyone, including people who are different from you. We can all learn something from others if we only take the time to smile and be warm and genuine. Remember to speak to people, do not preach at them.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Is there a special place to learn these things? Name calling? Threats to salvation?



lovethelake said:


> nope


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry, toots--that's what the gal who prepared us for Confirmation said. Seems reasonable to me. Hell might be packed to the rafters--and then again, it might be a vast echoing chamber still awaiting its first inmate. Only He knows for sure.


Still a lie

If you learned your Catechism, refer to CCC about Hell (1033-1037). In 1035, "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who de in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell aka eternal fire. The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" In 1034, Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where bothe soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather...all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire".

This is direct Catholic teaching. You may or may not believe what the Catholic Church teaches, this is what the Church teaches. So until you have proof that the CCC does not teach that, you told a lie and refused to accept that fact.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The way I understand it, in a democracy the people vote. In a republic, the people elect representatives who vote for them. And, yes, that is how the USA operates, and yes, we do have a Constitution. I think simple is best.



joeysomma said:


> A republic is a form of government in which power is held by the people and representatives they elect, and affairs of state are a "public matter" (from Latin: res publica), rather than privately accommodated (such as through inheritance or divine mandate). In modern times the definition of a republic is also commonly limited to a government which excludes a monarch.
> 
> But we are not just a republic. We are a "Constitutional Republic."


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Still a lie
> 
> If you learned your Catechism, refer to CCC about Hell (1033-1037). In 1035, "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who de in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell aka eternal fire. The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alne man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" In 1034, Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where bothe soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather...all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire".
> 
> This is direct Catholic teaching. You may or may not believe what the Catholic Church teaches, this is what the Church teaches. So until you have proof that the CCC does not teach that, you told a lie and refused to accept that fact.


My, how quick you are to disregard Pope Francis' words:

The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good. Yes, he can The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! Father, the atheists? Even the atheists. Everyone!.. We must meet one another doing good. But I dont believe, Father, I am an atheist! But do good: we will meet one another there.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> llel Verses
> New International Version
> Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
> 
> ...


But * why * would he harden their hearts? If he was a kind and loving god why would he purposely harden their hearts, thus condemning them to hell?


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

damemary said:


> I see no logic or hope in convoluted teachings. I learned the teachings by rote, was baptized and confirmed. As an adult, I think for myself and I'm at peace.


Yup, I don't either. It was when I actually sat and thought about these things I was taught that I no longer believed the Christian beliefs. The whole convoluted, don't think for yourself but do what you're told, thing didn't work for me. When I had legitimate questions about Biblical interpretation and went to the pastor and asked I was treated as though I was stupid and that I just shouldn't question. Yeah, that kept me in line with their thinking :roll:


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> A republic is a form of government in which power is held by the people and representatives they elect, and affairs of state are a "public matter" (from Latin: res publica), rather than privately accommodated (such as through inheritance or divine mandate). In modern times the definition of a republic is also commonly limited to a government which excludes a monarch.
> 
> But we are not just a republic. We are a "Constitutional Republic."


You forgot to add the site you copied your first paragraph from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic

I'm sure your post just got cut off early and it wasn't intentionally plagiarism.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

damemary said:


> The way I understand it, in a democracy the people vote. In a republic, the people elect representatives who vote for them. And, yes, that is how the USA operates, and yes, we do have a Constitution. I think simple is best.


Yes, simple explanations do work best. It also shows that you don't need to resort to a dictionary or other reference book to find the definition because you already know it.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> My, how quick you are to disregard Pope Francis' words:
> 
> The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good. Yes, he can The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! Father, the atheists? Even the atheists. Everyone!.. We must meet one another doing good. But I dont believe, Father, I am an atheist! But do good: we will meet one another there.


Did not, but then again you are quick to try to justify your lies.

Hell is for those that choose to commit a Mortal Sin. That is a choice. No one has said that the atheist has committed a Mortal Sin.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Oh one more thing. Our Holy Father follows the Doctrine in the CCC. Nothing he says changes Church beliefs, laws or doctrine. He says things in different ways, but it is still our Church's teachings.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Did not, but then again you are quick to try to justify your lies.
> 
> Hell is for those that choose to commit a Mortal Sin. That is a choice. No one has said that the atheist has committed a Mortal Sin.


You're trying to the blend the religion of your right-wing cronies (fundamentalist Christians, almost exclusively) and what you as a Catholic were taught, LTL, and it simply doesn't work. As far as I can tell fundamentalists have no concept of mortal vs. venial sin--a sin is a sin in their eyes, and the only one that really matters is refusing to accept Jesus Christ into your heart.

Does a Catholic believe that Hell exists? Of course--and I have never claimed otherwise. Have Church authorities (from the Pope on down) ever specified how many are current residents? Of course not--but if you can provide a list based on the insider knowledge that some have suggested you possess, I'd be more than happy to look at it.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Did not, but then again you are quick to try to justify your lies.
> 
> Hell is for those that choose to commit a Mortal Sin.


Half right: Hell is for those who (with full knowledge) commit a mortal sin, don't repent, and never receive forgiveness. Again, a list of those you know who have failed to accomplish this and consequently cut themselves off forever from God might convince me.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Still a lie
> 
> If you learned your Catechism, refer to CCC about Hell (1033-1037). In 1035, "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who de in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell aka eternal fire. The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" In 1034, Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where bothe soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather...all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire".
> 
> This is direct Catholic teaching. You may or may not believe what the Catholic Church teaches, this is what the Church teaches. So until you have proof that the CCC does not teach that, you told a lie and refused to accept that fact.


This certainly gives the requirements for getting into hell, but it doesn't prove that anyone has ever met those requirements. Hell may still be empty, even if it's been set up as delineated above.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> This certainly gives the requirements for getting into hell, but it doesn't prove that anyone has ever met those requirements. Hell may still be empty, even if it's been set up as delineated above.


So true, Purl. I simply can't understand why LTL and her cronies cling so fiercely to the idea that Hell is paved wall-to-wall with souls in torment. As I said before, they seem to receive a great deal of comfort and pleasure from imagining their earthly enemies being tossed in one by one, and trying to separate them from the notion is as futile as jerking the security blanket out of Linus Van Pelt's hands.

I found this on Wordonfire.org and thought it interesting. It certainly presents Catholicism in a more positive light:

The Catholic theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar... presented a somewhat Barthian teaching on this score, though he pulled back from complete universalism. Balthasar argued that, given what God has accomplished in Christ, we may reasonably hope that all people will be saved. The condemnation of apokatastasis compelled him to draw back from saying that we know all will be saved, but his keen sensitivity to the dramatic power of the cross convinced him that we may entertain the lively and realistic hope that all people will eventually be drawn into the divine love.

My own conviction is that Balthasar has this more or less right. Catholic doctrine is that Hell exists, but yet the Church has never claimed to know if any human being is actually in Hell. When the Church says that Hell exists, it means that the definitive rejection of Gods love is a real possibility. Hell or Gehenna are spatial metaphors for the lonely and sad condition of having definitively refused the offer of the divine life. But is there anyone in this state of being? We dont know for sure. We are in fact permitted to hope and to pray that all people will finally surrender to the alluring beauty of Gods grace.


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## Jokim (Nov 22, 2011)

alcameron said:


> So the person who writes nasty things on KP about other KP'ers or our president and family, who calls others stupid and a fool, who constantly makes fun of others does not have love in her heart, and therefore no God? Just looking for an answer here . . . .


You presume to know what is in a person's heart?


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

atthew 25:41
"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels ...' " (NKJV)

Another Greek term used to indicate hell or the "lower regions" is Tartarus. Like Gehenna, Tartarus also designates the place of eternal punishment.

Example of Tartarus:

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment ... (ESV)

With so many references to Hell in the Bible, any serious Christian must come to terms with the doctrine. The passages are grouped in sections below to help us understand what the Bible has to say about hell.
Punishment in Hell is Eternal

Isaiah 66:24
"And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." (NIV)

Daniel 12:2
Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace. (NLT)

Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (NIV)

Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of hell with two hands. (NLT)

Jude 7
And don't forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God's judgment. (NLT)

Revelation 14:11
"And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (NKJV) 

Hell is a Place of Separation from God

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power. (NLT)

Hell Is a Place of Fire

Matthew 3:12
"His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (NKJV)

Matthew 13:4142
The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (NLT)

Matthew 13:50
... throwing the wicked into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (NLT)

Revelation 20:15
And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire. (NLT) 

Hell Is for the Wicked

Psalm 9:17
The wicked shall return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God. (ESV)

The Wise Will Avoid Hell

Proverbs 15:24
The way of life winds upward for the wise, that he may turn away from hell below. (NKJV) 

We Can Endeavor to Save Others from Hell

Proverbs 23:14
Physical discipline may well save them from death. (NLT)

Jude 23
Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment. Show mercy to still others, but do so with great caution, hating the sins that contaminate their lives. (NLT) 

The Beast, False Prophet, Devil and Demons Will Be Thrown into Hell

Matthew 25:41
"Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.' " (NLT)

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who did mighty miracles on behalf of the beastmiracles that deceived all who had accepted the mark of the beast and who worshiped his statue. Both the beast and his false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. (NLT)

Revelation 20:10
... and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (ESV) 

Hell Has No Power Over the Church

Matthew 16:18
Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means 'rock'), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it. (NLT)

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (NKJV)


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Jokim said:


> You presume to know what is in a person's heart?


I'm just asking if love and God reside there, in that person's heart, if they spout vile stuff . . . .


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## Jokim (Nov 22, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I'm just asking if love and God reside there, in that person's heart, if they spout vile stuff . . . .


When Jesus drove moneylenders from the Temple, he was very angry and called them vile names, God never left His heart. His anger was righteous. Don't presume to know what is in a person's heart.


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## Jokim (Nov 22, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Oh one more thing. Our Holy Father follows the Doctrine in the CCC. Nothing he says changes Church beliefs, laws or doctrine. He says things in different ways, but it is still our Church's teachings.


 :thumbup:


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## Jokim (Nov 22, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> atthew 25:41
> "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels ...' " (NKJV)
> 
> Another Greek term used to indicate hell or the "lower regions" is Tartarus. Like Gehenna, Tartarus also designates the place of eternal punishment.
> ...


Those that have eyes, let them see. Those that have ears, let them hear. See, hear, understand and be saved.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Still a lie
> 
> If you learned your Catechism, refer to CCC about Hell (1033-1037). In 1035, "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who de in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell aka eternal fire. The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" In 1034, Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where bothe soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather...all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire".
> 
> This is direct Catholic teaching. You may or may not believe what the Catholic Church teaches, this is what the Church teaches. So until you have proof that the CCC does not teach that, you told a lie and refused to accept that fact.


Oh, good grief!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Jokim said:


> When Jesus drove moneylenders from the Temple, he was very angry and called them vile names, God never left His heart. His anger was righteous. Don't presume to know what is in a person's heart.


I don't presume to know what's in a person's heart, but if nasty words come out of that person's mouth repeatedly, it sure ain't love!
Is it "righteous anger" that makes fun of a President? Is it righteous anger that makes a person call another "stupid?" Is it righteous anger that belittles a person? Is it righteous anger that denies food stamps or a living wage to the poor?
I don't believe scripture should be used to rationalize behavior. I think it should guide how you behave.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Oh, good grief!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Funny how the nasty ones always know where everyone is going and when. I bet they will be in for a big surprise when they reach their final destination and Jesus says; "Judge not lest ye be judged" and then the trap door opens up from under them and "Down down down they go round round round they go!" Makes about as much sense as what the righties, who judge everybody, say. Jesus would call them hypocrites me thinks. :thumbup:


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## Jokim (Nov 22, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I don't presume to know what's in a person's heart, but if nasty words come out of that person's mouth repeatedly, it sure ain't love!
> Is it "righteous anger" that makes fun of a President? Is it righteous anger that makes a person call another "stupid?" Is it righteous anger that belittles a person? Is it righteous anger that denies food stamps or a living wage to the poor?
> I don't believe scripture should be used to rationalize behavior. I think it should guide how you behave.


It is from Scripture that we get our Judeo-Christian principles and morals. The further we walk away from those principles and moral guidelines, the more evil our society becomes. Look around you.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Jokim said:


> It is from Scripture that we get our Judeo-Christian principles and morals. The further we walk away from those principles and moral guidelines, the more evil our society becomes. Look around you.


OK.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................Hmm, I see women, gays, African-Americans, and other minority groups being granted their full Constitutional rights for the first time in our nation's history. I'm sure Satan is cackling with glee.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> OK.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................Hmm, I see women, gays, African-Americans, and other minority groups being granted their full Constitutional rights for the first time in our nation's history. I'm sure Satan is cackling with glee.


What in the world goes on in that head of yours? Good grief!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> You're trying to the blend the religion of your right-wing cronies (fundamentalist Christians, almost exclusively) and what you as a Catholic were taught, LTL, and it simply doesn't work. As far as I can tell fundamentalists have no concept of mortal vs. venial sin--a sin is a sin in their eyes, and the only one that really matters is refusing to accept Jesus Christ into your heart.
> 
> Does a Catholic believe that Hell exists? Of course--and I have never claimed otherwise. Have Church authorities (from the Pope on down) ever specified how many are current residents? Of course not--but if you can provide a list based on the insider knowledge that some have suggested you possess, I'd be more than happy to look at it.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> So true, Purl. I simply can't understand why LTL and her cronies cling so fiercely to the idea that Hell is paved wall-to-wall with souls in torment. As I said before, they seem to receive a great deal of comfort and pleasure from imagining their earthly enemies being tossed in one by one, and trying to separate them from the notion is as futile as jerking the security blanket out of Linus Van Pelt's hands.
> 
> I found this on Wordonfire.org and thought it interesting. It certainly presents Catholicism in a more positive light:
> 
> ...


That doctrine must spoil their days. Good.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

alcameron said:


> I don't presume to know what's in a person's heart, but if nasty words come out of that person's mouth repeatedly, it sure ain't love!
> Is it "righteous anger" that makes fun of a President? Is it righteous anger that makes a person call another "stupid?" Is it righteous anger that belittles a person? Is it righteous anger that denies food stamps or a living wage to the poor?
> I don't believe scripture should be used to rationalize behavior. I think it should guide how you behave.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

IMHO any intelligent person would be put off by that thinking.



Lkholcomb said:


> Yup, I don't either. It was when I actually sat and thought about these things I was taught that I no longer believed the Christian beliefs. The whole convoluted, don't think for yourself but do what you're told, thing didn't work for me. When I had legitimate questions about Biblical interpretation and went to the pastor and asked I was treated as though I was stupid and that I just shouldn't question. Yeah, that kept me in line with their thinking :roll:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you.



Lkholcomb said:


> Yes, simple explanations do work best. It also shows that you don't need to resort to a dictionary or other reference book to find the definition because you already know it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> So true, Purl. I simply can't understand why LTL and her cronies cling so fiercely to the idea that Hell is paved wall-to-wall with souls in torment. As I said before, they seem to receive a great deal of comfort and pleasure from imagining their earthly enemies being tossed in one by one, and trying to separate them from the notion is as futile as jerking the security blanket out of Linus Van Pelt's hands.
> 
> I found this on Wordonfire.org and thought it interesting. It certainly presents Catholicism in a more positive light:
> 
> ...


It's more than interesting, Susan; it shows a side of Christianity that I rarely see on KP: the love that they all insist on while they demonstrate its opposite. In the concept of Hell, Balthasar sees hope, not simply punishment.

And there is exactly what LTL, called a lie: "Catholic doctrine is that Hell exists, but yet the Church has never claimed to know if any human being is actually in Hell." Your teacher knew what she was talking about after all.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Jokim said:


> It is from Scripture that we get our Judeo-Christian principles and morals. The further we walk away from those principles and moral guidelines, the more evil our society becomes. Look around you.


Did you bother to read what alcameron wrote? I'll re-quote it for you:


alcameron said:


> I don't believe scripture should be used to rationalize behavior. I think it should guide how you behave.


 How does that differ from what you said, other than being much less preachy?


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry, toots--that's what the gal who prepared us for Confirmation said. Seems reasonable to me. Hell might be packed to the rafters--and then again, it might be a vast echoing chamber still awaiting its first inmate. Only He knows for sure.


First of all you are taking the word of a "gal" to learn about the fundamentals of Catholicism? Maybe if you had been taught by someone more qualified and knowledgeable about Church Doctrine you would not be making such foolish and incorrect comments and assertions. Maybe before you pontificate some additional falsehoods you should validate your vast knowledge by documenting it with references from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (also known as CCC) like I did. You might find it enlightening to read true Church Doctrine, with explanations for why the Church teaches what it teaches, along with footnotes where you could learn more. There you could read about what the Church considers to be a Mortal Sin, which without absolution could lead to an afterlife in Hell (sections: 1859,1860,1033,1035, 1854 and 1860) so that you can argue facts and not opinions.

Emotions are not facts. So when throwing out what you say is a fact, and it is not a fact (or in this case a Church teaching), it would be helpful for you to know the facts. You may or may not believe what the Church teaches, but don't misrepresent Her with falsehoods and lies.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> First of all you are taking the word of a "gal" to learn about the fundamentals of Catholicism? Maybe if you had been taught by someone more qualified and knowledgeable about Church Doctrine you would not be making such foolish and incorrect comments and assertions. Maybe before you pontificate some additional falsehoods you should validate your vast knowledge by documenting it with references from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (also known as CCC) like I did. You might find it enlightening to read true Church Doctrine, with explanations for why the Church teaches what it teaches, along with footnotes where you could learn more. There you could read about what the Church considers to be a Mortal Sin, which without absolution could lead to an afterlife in Hell (sections: 1859,1860,1033,1035, 1854 and 1860) so that you can argue facts and not opinions.
> 
> Emotions are not facts. So when throwing out what you say is a fact, and it is not a fact (or in this case a Church teaching), it would be helpful for you to know the facts. You may or may not believe what the Church teaches, but don't misrepresent Her with falsehoods and lies.


Talk about pontificating!

The only "fact" that could prove Susan's teacher wrong is definite knowledge of at least one person who was sent to Hell. Do you have such knowledge?


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Talk about pontificating!
> 
> The only "fact" that could prove Susan's teacher wrong is definite knowledge of at least one person who was sent to Hell. Do you have such knowledge?


Read the definition of Mortal Sin and the requirements for the Church to consider it to be a Mortal Sin. But I doubt you will do that. CCC 1857 states: For a sin t be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent" 1859 says that a grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments.

So one that committed murder, adultery, theft, lied, dishonored their parents.......and did not receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation before death, if God chooses He could send them to Hell. It is all a matter of choice, free will and intent. So can I specifically name someone, no. But do I believe that some people have met that requirement, yes.

But the point is not whether you believe in the Catholic Church's teachings about Hell, it is a matter of stating correct facts about Her Doctrine and not stating false beliefs as the truth. Nothing more, nothing less


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Read the definition of Mortal Sin and the requirements for the Church to consider it to be a Mortal Sin. But I doubt you will do that. CCC 1857 states: For a sin t be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent" 1859 says that a grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments.
> 
> So one that committed murder, adultery, theft, lied, dishonored their parents.......and did not receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation before death, if God chooses He could send them to Hell. It is all a matter of choice, free will and intent. So can I specifically name someone, no. But do I believe that some people have met that requirement, yes.
> 
> But the point is not whether you believe in the Catholic Church's teachings about Hell, it is a matter of stating correct facts about Her Doctrine and not stating false beliefs as the truth. Nothing more, nothing less


Sorry, LTL--but I think the views of a Catholic theologian and a church layperson (who was entrusted with the task of guiding young Catholics along the spiritual path) carry more weight in this case than yours. In fact, I consider your sentiments downright unChristian. The thought that His love and compassion might be great enough to encompass us all obviously throws you into a tailspin. It would appear that you've been running with the wrong crowd (the RWN, of course) for far too long, and Hell has become for you a personal dumping ground in which to consign your earthly enemies. That's unfortunate in the extreme, and it might be wise for you to try to open up that sour little heart of yours to His message of faith, salvation, and hope.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

LTL,

We all know the LWNs are not interested in facts, only their opinions.

Anyone left of center needs not to even respond to a LWN because *no one*, no matter her "side', can argue with an idiot.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> What in the world goes on in that head of yours? Good grief!


"*Nothing* but lies, turmoil and confusion, evil, envy, hate, denial, fear, instability and on and on and on."


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry, LTL--but I think the views of a Catholic theologian and a church layperson (who was entrusted with the task of guiding young Catholics along the spiritual path) carry more weight in this case than yours. In fact, I consider your sentiments downright unChristian. The thought that His love and compassion might be great enough to encompass us all obviously throws you into a tailspin. It would appear that you've been running with the wrong crowd (the RWN, of course) for far too long, and Hell has become for you a personal dumping ground in which to consign your earthly enemies. That's unfortunate in the extreme, and it might be wise for you to try to open up that sour little heart of yours to His message of faith, salvation, and hope.


Unbelievable. You believe that a lay person has more knowledge than an ordained priest, an ordained deacon or a nun that has taken Holy Orders? If this is true, you are more foolish and arrogant than I could even imagine.

I said nothing 'unChristian', I stated the actual teachings of the Catholic Church. They were stated without interpretation. Seems that you can't handle the truth or the facts. Feelings are not facts, feelings are just feelings. And I pity a person that believe their feelings are facts and is incapable of knowing the difference.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry, LTL--but I think the views of a Catholic theologian and a church layperson (who was entrusted with the task of guiding young Catholics along the spiritual path) carry more weight in this case than yours. In fact, I consider your sentiments downright unChristian. The thought that His love and compassion might be great enough to encompass us all obviously throws you into a tailspin. It would appear that you've been running with the wrong crowd (the RWN, of course) for far too long, and Hell has become for you a personal dumping ground in which to consign your earthly enemies. That's unfortunate in the extreme, and it might be wise for you to try to open up that sour little heart of yours to His message of faith, salvation, and hope.


Another point. I taught CCD for over 15 years (even before I had my own children) because I wanted to give back to my Church what I had been given for 12 years of Catholic education. I never stated anything as Church doctrine that I did not verify with either a priest, deacon or sister. My goal was to pass on the Church's teachings and not put my interpretation or bias into the lessons. I continue to take continuing education classes with my parish deacon. I know that I do not know all about the Church's teachings and doctrine. But I do know how to find out the correct information, which is a blessing. I have stated before, and I will again, the Catholic Church is not a 'buffet of teachings' where you can pick and choose what to believe. As a Catholic you are required to accept all of the Church's doctrine regardless of what the secular society deems acceptable. The Catholic Church does not condone Relativism. Relativism is a cop out for those who do not have the spiritual strength to live their lives according to the Church's principles and teaching.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Unbelievable. You believe that a lay person has more knowledge than an ordained priest, an ordained deacon or a nun that has taken Holy Orders?


Sorry, dear--I don't hear an ordained priest, deacon, or nun quoting the Catechism to me--just you. You may have taught CCD for many years and taken untold numbers of religious classes, but that doesn't change the fact that behind your words lies a snarling sourpuss attitude that hints you've somehow derailed off the Catholic spiritual track. Your self-righteous quoting of the Catechism, your indignation when someone disagrees with you, and your arrogance are all bad signs. I think you need some spiritual counseling--badly.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Talk about pontificating!
> 
> The only "fact" that could prove Susan's teacher wrong is definite knowledge of at least one person who was sent to Hell. Do you have such knowledge?


She may soon. ;-)


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry, dear--I don't hear an ordained priest, deacon, or nun quoting the Catechism to me--just you. And the longer this debate drags on the more wisdom I see in the Church's insistence on spiritual guidance when pursuing its teachings. You're quoting the words and interpreting them in your own highly idiosyncratic fashion--not surprising in light of the fact that you live in Virginia and are surrounded on all sides by militant Protestants, for whom this is a highly commendable activity. But it simply is not part of the Catholic belief system. Why not lay all this before your parish priest and ask for his guidance? I'm sure he could guide you onto a better spiritual track.


I would say that at least in some cases lay people have considered the word of the Deity in much more solemn terms than either priests or nuns.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry, dear--I don't hear an ordained priest, deacon, or nun quoting the Catechism to me--just you. And the longer this debate drags on the more wisdom I see in the Church's insistence on spiritual guidance when pursuing its teachings. You're quoting the words and interpreting them in your own highly idiosyncratic fashion--not surprising in light of the fact that you live in Virginia and are surrounded on all sides by militant Protestants, for whom this is a highly commendable activity. But it simply is not part of the Catholic belief system. Why not lay all this before your parish priest and ask for his guidance? I'm sure he could guide you onto a better spiritual track.


No I feel sorry for you. I quoted Catechism to prove that your statement was wrong, and you continued to assert that your 'gal' was right 50 years ago. I did no interpretation. I live by no militant Protestants, and know of no congregation of that type within hundreds of miles around me. Again, you live your life under false pretenses.

If you believe what I quoted was wrong, I challenge you to talk to a priest or an nun. But you won't because you would rather have false righteous indignation than accept the truth. As I stated before, I am taking courses about the Church as continuing education to learn about my faith. But yet you judge me for stating the truth, because I proved you and your 'gal' wrong without continuing your Catholic education. So until you have facts and not false opinions and have verified what I have said is the truth, your opinion about the Catholic Church's teachings are as irrelevant as you are in this discussion.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> I would say that at least in some cases lay people have considered the word of the Deity in much more solemn terms than either priests or nuns.


Sometimes--but in cases like LTL's it obvious that a lot of damage can be done by laypeople who read, interpret, and impose their own version of the Catholic teachings on innocent young minds. The fact that she taught CCD for so long appalls me. That grim sour attitude when she talks about Christ is a dead giveaway that something simply isn't right.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry, dear--I don't hear an ordained priest, deacon, or nun quoting the Catechism to me--just you. You may have taught CCD for many years and taken untold numbers of religious classes, but that doesn't change the fact that behind your words lies a snarling sourpuss attitude that hints you've somehow derailed off the Catholic spiritual track. Your self-righteous quoting of the Catechism, your indignation when someone disagrees with you, and your arrogance are all bad signs. I think you need some spiritual counseling--badly.


I do not have a snarling sourpuss attitude, nor have I been derailed like you have. Quoting teachings is not self-righteous, you only think that because you were proven wrong and can only attack people that correct you.

Your opinion and suggestion have as much validity as a snake oil salesman...........a farce. You are the one that needs help, counselling and spiritual direction.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sometimes--but in cases like LTL's it obvious that a lot of damage can be done by laypeople who read, interpret, and impose their own version of the Catholic teachings on innocent young minds. The fact that she taught CCD for so long appalls me. That grim sour attitude when she talks about Christ is a dead giveaway that something simply isn't right.


To be honest, I am not sure much damage can be done. 
I am not sure that kids really pay attention to what is taught and kids are pretty savvy. They know enough to consider the source...


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> No I feel sorry for you. I quoted Catechism to prove that your statement was wrong, and you continued to assert that your 'gal' was right 50 years ago. I did no interpretation. I live by no militant Protestants, and know of no congregation of that type within hundreds of miles around me. Again, you live your life under false pretenses.
> 
> If you believe what I quoted was wrong, I challenge you to talk to a priest or an nun. But you won't because you would rather have false righteous indignation than accept the truth. As I stated before, I am taking courses about the Church as continuing education to learn about my faith. But yet you judge me for stating the truth, because I proved you and your 'gal' wrong without continuing your Catholic education. So until you have facts and not false opinions and have verified what I have said is the truth, your opinion about the Catholic Church's teachings are as irrelevant as you are in this discussion.


Do you really believe that your arrogant and self-righteous attitude do justice to His message? Jesus himself was the most patient and loving of teachers--I don't believe for a moment He'd approve of folks who try to spread His words by wielding a verbal ruler over others' heads.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Read the definition of Mortal Sin and the requirements for the Church to consider it to be a Mortal Sin. But I doubt you will do that. CCC 1857 states: For a sin t be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent" 1859 says that a grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments.
> 
> So one that committed murder, adultery, theft, lied, dishonored their parents.......and did not receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation before death, if God chooses He could send them to Hell. It is all a matter of choice, free will and intent. So can I specifically name someone, no. But do I believe that some people have met that requirement, yes.
> 
> But the point is not whether you believe in the Catholic Church's teachings about Hell, it is a matter of stating correct facts about Her Doctrine and not stating false beliefs as the truth. Nothing more, nothing less


HAHAHAA.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> I do not have a snarling sourpuss attitude, nor have I been derailed like you have. Quoting teachings is not self-righteous, you only think that because you were proven wrong and can only attack people that correct you.
> 
> Your opinion and suggestion have as much validity as a snake oil salesman...........a farce. You are the one that needs help, counselling and spiritual direction.


Sorry, dear--I'm not the one whose heart is being consumed by bitterness, hate, and arrogance. You give all Catholics a bad name.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sometimes--but in cases like LTL's it obvious that a lot of damage can be done by laypeople who read, interpret, and impose their own version of the Catholic teachings on innocent young minds. The fact that she taught CCD for so long appalls me. That grim sour attitude when she talks about Christ is a dead giveaway that something simply isn't right.


What have you done to inspire the faith in others? Nothing. All you can do is spew false accusations and throw temper tantrums because you were found wrong and called on the carpet for it.

I am sure you and your other Obamacultists will have a field day with put downs. How sad that this is all you and all the other cultists have nothing to do all day but put people down and read blogs all day. Maybe your spiritual advisor can help you get a life and do something worthwhile. Sorry, that would too hard for you, and take time away from your small world of KP and putting people down


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> What have you done to inspire the faith in others? Nothing. All you can do is spew false accusations and throw temper tantrums because you were found wrong and called on the carpet for it.
> 
> I am sure you and your other Obamacultists will have a field day with put downs. How sad that this is all you and all the other cultists have nothing to do all day but put people down and read blogs all day. Maybe your spiritual advisor can help you get a life and do something worthwhile. Sorry, that would too hard for you, and take time away from your small world of KP and putting people down


Only One can call me on the carpet, sweets--and it certainly isn't you. That statement alone shows the depths of your folly and arrogance.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Whoa Nellie! Are you saying that a woman teaching Christian Doctrine would be less qualified and knowlegdgeable? Sister Mary Margaret might take issue with that. Surely your intent is different. Please clarify. 
********************************************************************************


lovethelake said:


> First of all you are taking the word of a "gal" to learn about the fundamentals of Catholicism? Maybe if you had been taught by someone more qualified and knowledgeable about Church Doctrine you would not be making such foolish and incorrect comments and assertions. Maybe before you pontificate some additional falsehoods you should validate your vast knowledge by documenting it with references from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (also known as CCC) like I did. You might find it enlightening to read true Church Doctrine, with explanations for why the Church teaches what it teaches, along with footnotes where you could learn more. There you could read about what the Church considers to be a Mortal Sin, which without absolution could lead to an afterlife in Hell (sections: 1859,1860,1033,1035, 1854 and 1860) so that you can argue facts and not opinions.
> 
> Emotions are not facts. So when throwing out what you say is a fact, and it is not a fact (or in this case a Church teaching), it would be helpful for you to know the facts. You may or may not believe what the Church teaches, but don't misrepresent Her with falsehoods and lies.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Shall we debate how many angels might dance on the head of a pin?



lovethelake said:


> Read the definition of Mortal Sin and the requirements for the Church to consider it to be a Mortal Sin. But I doubt you will do that. CCC 1857 states: For a sin t be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent" 1859 says that a grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments.
> 
> So one that committed murder, adultery, theft, lied, dishonored their parents.......and did not receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation before death, if God chooses He could send them to Hell. It is all a matter of choice, free will and intent. So can I specifically name someone, no. But do I believe that some people have met that requirement, yes.
> 
> But the point is not whether you believe in the Catholic Church's teachings about Hell, it is a matter of stating correct facts about Her Doctrine and not stating false beliefs as the truth. Nothing more, nothing less


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think I have it figured out. You came to the Catholic Church as an adult. Instruction for younger people is usually taught, at least in part by school teachers, frequently women.

Your interpretation has been clouded by your previous beliefs. I would even hazard a guess that you never completed your conversion. That would make the unqualified person to spout Scripture. Be gone.



lovethelake said:


> Unbelievable. You believe that a lay person has more knowledge than an ordained priest, an ordained deacon or a nun that has taken Holy Orders? If this is true, you are more foolish and arrogant than I could even imagine.
> 
> I said nothing 'unChristian', I stated the actual teachings of the Catholic Church. They were stated without interpretation. Seems that you can't handle the truth or the facts. Feelings are not facts, feelings are just feelings. And I pity a person that believe their feelings are facts and is incapable of knowing the difference.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And your rigidity is one of the reasons so many have left the Catholic Church.



lovethelake said:



> Another point. I taught CCD for over 15 years (even before I had my own children) because I wanted to give back to my Church what I had been given for 12 years of Catholic education. I never stated anything as Church doctrine that I did not verify with either a priest, deacon or sister. My goal was to pass on the Church's teachings and not put my interpretation or bias into the lessons. I continue to take continuing education classes with my parish deacon. I know that I do not know all about the Church's teachings and doctrine. But I do know how to find out the correct information, which is a blessing. I have stated before, and I will again, the Catholic Church is not a 'buffet of teachings' where you can pick and choose what to believe. As a Catholic you are required to accept all of the Church's doctrine regardless of what the secular society deems acceptable. The Catholic Church does not condone Relativism. Relativism is a cop out for those who do not have the spiritual strength to live their lives according to the Church's principles and teaching.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> I think I have it figured out. You came to the Catholic Church as an adult. Instruction for younger people is usually taught, at least in part by school teachers, frequently women.
> 
> Your interpretation has been clouded by your previous beliefs. I would even hazard a guess that you never completed your conversion. That would make the unqualified person to spout Scripture. Be gone.


You may have hit it, Dame. It's certainly true that many "converts" are sticklers for the rules and approach the Catechism with a grim intensity, like it's a smoothful of medicine to be dutifully forced down the hatch. Nothing wrong with that, of course--it's just a different approach. But in LTL's case I'd hazard a guess that her shrill condemnation of anyone who disagrees with her is a sign of spiritual insecurity. She so reminds me of the fundamentalist Christians here on the thread, who can be counted on to fly into a frenzy when anyone suggests that the stories in the Bible might not be literally true.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> You may have hit it, Dame. It's certainly true that many "converts" are sticklers for the rules and approach the Catechism with a grim intensity, like it's a smoothful of medicine to be dutifully forced down the hatch. Nothing wrong with that, of course--it's just a different approach. But in LTL's case I'd hazard a guess that her shrill condemnation of anyone who disagrees with her is a sign of spiritual insecurity. She so reminds me of the fundamentalist Christians here on the thread, who can be counted on to fly into a frenzy when anyone suggests that the stories in the Bible might not be literally true.


The thing that gets me is that she talks about FACTS. There are no facts, to couch it in the language of rules is very appropriate.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Read the definition of Mortal Sin and the requirements for the Church to consider it to be a Mortal Sin. But I doubt you will do that. CCC 1857 states: For a sin t be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent" 1859 says that a grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments.
> 
> So one that committed murder, adultery, theft, lied, dishonored their parents.......and did not receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation before death, if God chooses He could send them to Hell. It is all a matter of choice, free will and intent. So can I specifically name someone, no. But do I believe that some people have met that requirement, yes.
> 
> But the point is not whether you believe in the Catholic Church's teachings about Hell, it is a matter of stating correct facts about Her Doctrine and not stating false beliefs as the truth. Nothing more, nothing less


This has gotten way above my pay grade, except for the logic behind it, which seems to have gotten away from both you and Susan. To review: Susan simply said that she was taught that Hell *may* be empty. Note the word "may." It indicates as much about fact as your statement "But do I believe that some people have met that requirement, yes." Your belief - no matter how correct it sounds - is no more proof than Susan's teacher's "may."

This has nothing to do with doctrine, AFAICS, but with what has passed between various evil people and God at the moment of death, something neither you nor Susan's teacher can know.

This shouldn't have deteriorated into a name-calling match. It probably wouldn't have if you hadn't irrelevantly quoted doctrine, which indeed tells us that Hell exists and that people can, "if God chooses" (your words), be sent there but still doesn't guarantee that anyone is actually there.

You seem to have missed the piece about the Catholic theologian Balthasar (I'm not going back to find his full name), who makes the statement that Hell may in fact be empty, because you didn't try to prove him wrong.

What's clear to me, in my invincible ignorance, is that you're arguing about different things, and it shouldn't have come to this name-calling. So stop it! (and, yes, I'm going to tell Susan to stop it, too).


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> But * why * would he harden their hearts? If he was a kind and loving god why would he purposely harden their hearts, thus condemning them to hell?


Maybe because He knows the end and knows you will never change. You are happy the way your are and think you don't need them because you are smarter than He is. He is still the kind and loving God. He never changes but He know you will not. And again God doesn't not condemn anyone to hell. He lets you do that all yourself. And I must say there are a lot doing a find job too.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> The thing that gets me is that she talks about FACTS. There are no facts, to couch it in the language of rules is very appropriate.


Yes, religion--any religion--is primarily based on faith. You either have it or you don't. I think that's why the sight of the faithful doggedly searching the mountain tops in Turkey for the wreckage of Noah's ark is so ludicrous. If your faith is so weak that you feel you need some hard evidence, then no wooden beam pre-charred in a barbecue is going to be enough to convince you.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry, dear--I'm not the one whose heart is being consumed by bitterness, hate, and arrogance. You give all Catholics a bad name.


Please step back. You may be right, but it's gone way too far by now. LTL didn't quite get what you said and felt pushed to quote Church doctrine to you. It's annoying as heck, esp. to non-Catholics, but she was simply trying to convince you of something you have already stated: that Hell exists.

Okay, you kids, stop bickering, or I'm going to pull up at the next rest stop and drop you both off there.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Maybe because He knows the end and knows you will never change. You are happy the way your are and think you don't need them because you are smarter than He is. He is still the kind and loving God. He never changes but He know you will not. And again God doesn't not condemn anyone to hell. He lets you do that all yourself. And I must say there are a lot doing a find job too.


Do you pretend to speak for God? You're very certain about things no ordinary (wo)man can possibly know. And you can't read Lk's mind, can you? So please stop.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Please step back. You may be right, but it's gone way too far by now. LTL didn't quite get what you said and felt pushed to quote Church doctrine to you. It's annoying as heck, esp. to non-Catholics, but she was simply trying to convince you of something you have already stated: that Hell exists.
> 
> Okay, you kids, stop bickering, or I'm going to pull up at the next rest stop and drop you both off there.


Heehee. OK, Mom--please don't make us walk home.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Do you pretend to speak for God? You're very certain about things no ordinary (wo)man can possibly know. And you can't read Lk's mind, can you? So please stop.


I said maybe. I thought you would know I was saying my opinion. 
LK asked me a question about why I thought God would harden His heart so I answered her. So you please stop.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Heehee. OK, Mom--please don't make us walk home.


And you'd have to walk together. That's cruel and unusual punishment for both of you.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Interesting, Mother Pearl commands LovetheLake, "So Stop It!" because LTL posted Catholic doctrine.

Then to Susanmos2000, Mother Pearl calmly tells her "Please step back," from her slams against Catholic doctrine.

Thank the Lord Poor Purl is not biased.

NOTE: LTL is a practicing *C*atholic and a *C*onservative
Susanmos2000 is a practicing *l*iar and a *L*iberal


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> And you'd have to walk together. That's cruel and unusual punishment for both of you.


If we even made it home. My guess is that we'd get sidetracked by a hair-pulling match in a vacant lot somewhere along the way.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Still a lie
> 
> If you learned your Catechism, refer to CCC about Hell (1033-1037). In 1035, "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who de in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell aka eternal fire. The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" In 1034, Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where bothe soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather...all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire".
> 
> This is direct Catholic teaching. You may or may not believe what the Catholic Church teaches, this is what the Church teaches. So until you have proof that the CCC does not teach that, you told a lie and refused to accept that fact.


Well I don't understand how people can be so crazy about the right to choose and at the same time believe that people will be thrown into the furnace of fire. My girlfriend, who joined the catholic church when she got married [the first time] said her understanding of confession was you confessed the sins you were sorry for and if you weren't sorry for them, no need to confess. I said, whatever works. I think, as with any religion, there are many interpretations. Some people believe their way is the only way to believe about everything, but that is never reality.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> I said maybe. I thought you would know I was saying my opinion.
> LK asked me a question about why I thought God would harden His heart so I answered her. So you please stop.


The following sounds pretty definite, not like an opinion at all.


Country Bumpkins said:


> You are happy the way your are and think you don't need them because you are smarter than He is. He is still the kind and loving God. He never changes but He know you will not. And again God doesn't not condemn anyone to hell. He lets you do that all yourself. And I must say there are a lot doing a find job too.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> If we even made it home. My guess is that we'd get sidetracked by a hair-pulling match in a vacant lot somewhere along the way.


Whatever. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Good Ladies and Gents,

Please recognize Norman Bates (OR insert LWN ID here), as always, is saying anything, whether she believes it or not (mostly NOT), to incite you and get you to riled up and responding to her.

Don't fall for it. We've all seen it play out again and again.

Remember her hateful words about others and you? When we stop responding to her she becomes even more angry and bold, so makes up even more BS about your Faith, so you'll start responding to her (in defense and/or correction) again.

She is only looking for attention and your responses; do not respond!

That is the only way to silence her and the others.

Leave them to beat upon one another; they deserve one another and not hearing from us.

The LWNs are popping up all over KP trying to incite with controversial topics intended to get others angry and avoid the truths of reality.

(Besides how many unique individuals to you actually believe you're talking to?) :-D :XD:


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Interesting, Mother Pearl commands LovetheLake, "So Stop It!" because LTL posted Catholic doctrine.
> 
> Then to Susanmos2000, Mother Pearl calmly tells her "Please step back," from her hateful slams against Catholic doctrine.
> 
> ...


Back to stir the pot, KPG? Seems you might benefit from a Time Out as well.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> LTL,
> 
> We all know the LWNs are not interested in facts, only their opinions.
> 
> Anyone left of center needs not to even respond to a LWN because *no one*, no matter her "side', can argue with an idiot.


Very Christian of you KPG, calling someone an idiot. Did you learn that in the catholic church?


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

whatever


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Interesting, Mother Pearl commands LovetheLake, "So Stop It!" because LTL posted Catholic doctrine.
> 
> Then to Susanmos2000, Mother Pearl calmly tells her "Please step back," from her slams against Catholic doctrine.
> 
> ...


There you go again KPG with that name calling. Did all your catholic teachings say that was ok? Calling Susan a liar is not nice.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Good Ladies and Gents,
> 
> Please recognize Norman Bates (insert LWN ID here), as always, is saying anything, whether she believes it or not (mostly NOT), to incite you and get you to riled up and responding to her.
> 
> ...


Probably about 4.


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## Jokim (Nov 22, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> No I feel sorry for you. I quoted Catechism to prove that your statement was wrong, and you continued to assert that your 'gal' was right 50 years ago. I did no interpretation. I live by no militant Protestants, and know of no congregation of that type within hundreds of miles around me. Again, you live your life under false pretenses.
> 
> If you believe what I quoted was wrong, I challenge you to talk to a priest or an nun. But you won't because you would rather have false righteous indignation than accept the truth. As I stated before, I am taking courses about the Church as continuing education to learn about my faith. But yet you judge me for stating the truth, because I proved you and your 'gal' wrong without continuing your Catholic education. So until you have facts and not false opinions and have verified what I have said is the truth, your opinion about the Catholic Church's teachings are as irrelevant as you are in this discussion.


LTL you have done all within your ability to show them the truth about the Church, but, 'there are none so blind that those who will not see'! They refuse to open their eyes and ears to the truth.


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Jokim said:


> LTL you have done all within your ability to show them the truth about the Church, but, 'there are none so blind that those who will not see'! They refuse to open their eyes and ears to the truth.


This whole discussion of religion, church, belief, faith, bible is rather moot. Neither side has real PROOF that god does or does not exist. No one knows if there is or is not a hell. Is one belief system better or worse than another. Is the bible to be taken literally or not. Is one's faith to be challenged or not. Is one church more correct than another. All this discussion does is lead to hate and discontent.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

damemary said:


> I think I have it figured out. You came to the Catholic Church as an adult. Instruction for younger people is usually taught, at least in part by school teachers, frequently women.
> 
> Your interpretation has been clouded by your previous beliefs. I would even hazard a guess that you never completed your conversion. That would make the unqualified person to spout Scripture. Be gone.


Wrong again. 12 years of Catholic education, and all religion classes done during the school day and by the sisters of that school. Sad how you grasp at straws to justify your erroneous thinking

I do not interpret Catholic doctrine, I follow it


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Jokim said:


> LTL you have done all within your ability to show them the truth about the Church, but, 'there are none so blind that those who will not see'! They refuse to open their eyes and ears to the truth.


Thank you. I give them facts and direct quotes to prove my statements and they still feel a need to attack. I did not interpret anything, just stated doctrine. Told them what book to read if they wanted to see in black and white what our doctrine is, but they refuse to use it. They say KGP is a Catholic, and she is not and has stated so before. Susan was raised Catholic, yet mocks the Church's doctrine and takes the word of some 'gal's' words as gospel truth, but not direct quotes from the CCC. She is even so irreverent that she does not have the decency to capitalize the Catholic Church's name. I say I went through 12 years of Catholic schools and then tells me that I became a Catholic as an adult. The only thing left is praying for her. But I am sure that she will mock that too. Truly a sad way to live


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## Jokim (Nov 22, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Thank you. I give them facts and direct quotes to prove my statements and they still feel a need to attack. I did not interpret anything, just stated doctrine. Told them what book to read if they wanted to see in black and white what our doctrine is, but they refuse to use it. They say KGP is a Catholic, and she is not and has stated so before. Susan was raised Catholic, yet mocks the Church's doctrine and takes the word of some 'gal's' words as gospel truth, but not direct quotes from the CCC. She is even so irreverent that she does not have the decency to capitalize the Catholic Church's name. I say I went through 12 years of Catholic schools and then tells me that I became a Catholic as an adult. The only thing left is praying for her. But I am sure that she will mock that too. Truly a sad way to live


I pray for them also. You're right, as Catholics we do not interpret the Catholic doctrine, we are not theologians. Rather, we follow it. If we have questions about theological issues, we seek the proper authorities for answers. I think many of them have questions but aren't quite sure where to find answers.
FYI- Remember the Beatitudes, esp. the last one (paraphrased): " Blessed are you if they persecute you, and speaking falsely, say all manner of evil against you for my sake. Rejoice, your reward is great in heaven".


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Wrong again. 12 years of Catholic education, and all religion classes done during the school day and by the sisters of that school. Sad how you grasp at straws to justify your erroneous thinking
> 
> I do not interpret Catholic doctrine, I follow it


Nothing is black and white--not even Catholic doctrine, I bet.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Jokim said:


> I pray for them also. You're right, as Catholics we do not interpret the Catholic doctrine, we are not theologians. Rather, we follow it. If we have questions about theological issues, we seek the proper authorities for answers. I think many of them have questions but aren't quite sure where to find answers.
> FYI- Remember the Beatitudes, esp. the last one (paraphrased): " Blessed are you if they persecute you, and speaking falsely, say all manner of evil against you for my sake. Rejoice, your reward is great in heaven".


I truly am not trying to persecute anyone. I believe that I see some hypocrisy going on here and there on KP, and if I say anything about that, I'm accused of "bad-mouthing" Christians. If someone is professing vehemently of being a good Christian person, she should read and re-read what she is writing and how that comes across to others. So if someone is using derogatory language in describing or talking to another whether it be about someone on KP or elsewhere, and within the same conversation makes a display about her Christianity, that upsets people. Displays of this nature give Christianity a bad name.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

[sorry, double post


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Interesting, Mother Pearl commands LovetheLake, "So Stop It!" because LTL posted Catholic doctrine.
> 
> Then to Susanmos2000, Mother Pearl calmly tells her "Please step back," from her slams against Catholic doctrine.
> 
> ...


Don't think you should be commenting on Susan's Catholicism. I also don't think you should be name-calling and acting as judge. Just my opinion about what I am told about how good Christians should act and speak.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> What have you done to inspire the faith in others? Nothing. All you can do is spew false accusations and throw temper tantrums because you were found wrong and called on the carpet for it.
> 
> I am sure you and your other Obamacultists will have a field day with put downs. How sad that this is all you and all the other cultists have nothing to do all day but put people down and read blogs all day. Maybe your spiritual advisor can help you get a life and do something worthwhile. Sorry, that would too hard for you, and take time away from your small world of KP and putting people down


Here we go again. Your constant use of "obama cultists" is derogatory. And is it Christian??? I'll bet you never, ever put people down right?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> LTL,
> 
> We all know the LWNs are not interested in facts, only their opinions.
> 
> Anyone left of center needs not to even respond to a LWN because *no one*, no matter her "side', can argue with an idiot.


More of the same from another good Christian. Don't you understand how that comes across to people? Don't you know that more and more disregard anything from a Christian if a good Christian can persist in calling people idiot, stupid, fool, etc.? You undermine your own cause, my dear.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

alcameron said:


> So if someone is using derogatory language in describing or talking to another whether it be about someone on KP or elsewhere, and within the same conversation makes a display about her Christianity, that upsets people. Displays of this nature give Christianity a bad name.


As do you.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

alcameron said:


> Don't think you should be commenting on Susan's Catholicism. I also don't think you should be name-calling and acting as judge. Just my opinion about what I am told about how good Christians should act and speak.


Would you stop! You post nothing but slams to me and every person who isn't a Liberal.

Read you own darn posts you JUST WROTE above beginning at 18:34 before you judged and slammed me again.

Hyprocite, judge, jury and fool!


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Would you stop! You post nothing but slams to me and every person who isn't a Liberal.
> 
> Read you own darn post you JUST WROTE at 18:34 before you judged and slammed me again.
> 
> Hyprocite!


I'm trying, and you aren't. That seems to be a big difference.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

alcameron said:


> I'm trying, and you aren't. That seems to be a big difference.


Judge not! You are *not* trying, read your own posts AGAIN beginning at 18:34 and your own faux signature line and grow up.

What's with you, don't you know how *you* come across to people like YOU JUST WROTE at 18:48?

Start reading all your prior posts, pick a day, any day, and you'll see you *don't try* but only succeed to insult me CONSTANTLY and don't come on KP to post ANYTHING except to insult those you do not like.

I don't even respond to you and you hurl insults and attacks.

Everyone with whom you do not agree has ignored you and been nice to you.

You have nothing good to say to or about them/me, and you cannot seem to have a good word to say *ever*.

False prophet you are, nothing more.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Judge not. Read your own signature line and grow up.


I don't have to. I know what it says. And if it's so important to you, as you always must, go ahead and have the last word.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

rocky1991 said:


> This whole discussion of religion, church, belief, faith, bible is rather moot. Neither side has real PROOF that god does or does not exist. No one knows if there is or is not a hell. Is one belief system better or worse than another. Is the bible to be taken literally or not. Is one's faith to be challenged or not. Is one church more correct than another. All this discussion does is lead to hate and discontent.


The funny thing about this "discussion" - I think there have to be two sides to a discussion - is that it requires no proof, no recitation of doctrine, or anything like that.

Susan simply said that the woman who taught her catechism when she was a child said that for all anyone knew, Hell might be empty. Nothing about the existence or non- of Hell, or about God, or about belief. *No attempt to state a fact or deny one. Simply stating a possibility that can't be proved or disproved by anyone living.*

This is what LTL called "a lie" and posted reams of doctrine to disprove, all irrelevant. And then her cohorts had to come to her side because they saw an opening to insult Susan. Is this what good Christians do? I guess that since they have no grasp of logic, they need to resort name-calling.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> Is a nit-picker different than a nose-picker?


Difference between cooties and boogers. For clarification, consult Calvin and Hobbes.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Jokim said:


> I pray for them also. You're right, as Catholics we do not interpret the Catholic doctrine, we are not theologians. Rather, we follow it. If we have questions about theological issues, we seek the proper authorities for answers. I think many of them have questions but aren't quite sure where to find answers.
> FYI- Remember the Beatitudes, esp. the last one (paraphrased): " Blessed are you if they persecute you, and speaking falsely, say all manner of evil against you for my sake. Rejoice, your reward is great in heaven".


What does Catholic doctrine have to do with this "discussion"? Someone years ago said that for all we know, Hell may be empty. Not that Hell doesn't exist, just that we don't know whether anyone has actually been sent there.

Don't bother to tell me that I don't know enough about Catholic doctrine to be involved in this. I don't, but I have enough respect for the Church to assume that it can deal with logic and supposition.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Would you stop! You post nothing but slams to me and every person who isn't a Liberal.
> 
> Read you own darn posts you JUST WROTE above beginning at 18:34 before you judged and slammed me again.
> 
> Hyprocite, judge, jury and fool!


I rest my case.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> And you'd have to walk together. That's cruel and unusual punishment for both of you.


And people wonder why I won't share my beliefs, goodness.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Difference between cooties and boogers. For clarification, consult Calvin and Hobbes.


Marilyn, thank you for interrupting this absurd religious name-calling session and showing us what's important.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

alcameron said:


> I rest my case.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

alcameron said:


> I rest my case.


Someone missed the dose of Xanax today.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Good Grief! I took a day off from KP and came back to find a cat fight to end all cat fights. This had been amusing, but now that this is the third thread, over 200 postings, and the same old same old nastiness has not stopped it is getting boring.

Nobody is going to change anybody else's mind. Everybody's heels are dug in and opinions have ossified.

Some of our worthies who have continued to make conflicting and obviously stupid comments cannot change, as you can't cure stupid.

Hope to reconnect with some of the reasonable people who have posted sensible comments on some other thread.

Have a good life all. And I sure hope KPG doesn't live anywhere near me and hope I don't know her personally. I hope I never find out who she really is!

After I send, I am unwatching.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

The Ministry of the Twelve - Mathew 10:13,14 

Jesus said:
"If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace. Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet."


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Mathew 7:6

"Do not cast your pearls before swine...Do not give to dogs what is sacred"


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> The Ministry of the Twelve - Mathew 10:13,14
> 
> Jesus said:
> "If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace. Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet."


Agree


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Mathew 7:6
> 
> "Do not cast your pearls before swine...Do not give to dogs what is sacred"


and agree


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We're thinking alike. Does that scare you? I'm honored.



susanmos2000 said:


> You may have hit it, Dame. It's certainly true that many "converts" are sticklers for the rules and approach the Catechism with a grim intensity, like it's a smoothful of medicine to be dutifully forced down the hatch. Nothing wrong with that, of course--it's just a different approach. But in LTL's case I'd hazard a guess that her shrill condemnation of anyone who disagrees with her is a sign of spiritual insecurity. She so reminds me of the fundamentalist Christians here on the thread, who can be counted on to fly into a frenzy when anyone suggests that the stories in the Bible might not be literally true.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sorry. I know the doctrine, but don't believe it. When I hear doo doo, I call it as I see it. LTL is not qualified to quote dogma. IMHO



Poor Purl said:


> This has gotten way above my pay grade, except for the logic behind it, which seems to have gotten away from both you and Susan. To review: Susan simply said that she was taught that Hell *may* be empty. Note the word "may." It indicates as much about fact as your statement "But do I believe that some people have met that requirement, yes." Your belief - no matter how correct it sounds - is no more proof than Susan's teacher's "may."
> 
> This has nothing to do with doctrine, AFAICS, but with what has passed between various evil people and God at the moment of death, something neither you nor Susan's teacher can know.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And Susan & I will be laughing trying to hitchhike with our gams, yelling, "There is no hell." "Yessir." "NO SIR." Until the police go to find you for booting us out of the back seat.

Go ahead. Chance it.

Ps. I do not believe in heaven or hell....for the record.



Poor Purl said:


> Please step back. You may be right, but it's gone way too far by now. LTL didn't quite get what you said and felt pushed to quote Church doctrine to you. It's annoying as heck, esp. to non-Catholics, but she was simply trying to convince you of something you have already stated: that Hell exists.
> 
> Okay, you kids, stop bickering, or I'm going to pull up at the next rest stop and drop you both off there.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I got a plan. Stick with me.



susanmos2000 said:


> Heehee. OK, Mom--please don't make us walk home.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Remember: Damned are the peacemakers.



Poor Purl said:


> And you'd have to walk together. That's cruel and unusual punishment for both of you.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No. You preach to everyone else. I skip it. Am I the only one?



lovethelake said:


> Wrong again. 12 years of Catholic education, and all religion classes done during the school day and by the sisters of that school. Sad how you grasp at straws to justify your erroneous thinking
> 
> I do not interpret Catholic doctrine, I follow it


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Hey Al....I think you're bothering her.



knitpresentgifts said:


> Judge not! You are *not* trying, read your own posts AGAIN beginning at 18:34 and your own faux signature line and grow up.
> 
> What's with you, don't you know how *you* come across to people like YOU JUST WROTE at 18:48?
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Difference between cooties and boogers. For clarification, consult Calvin and Hobbes.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Good answer, marilyn.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Actually, I think KPG proved that she is the hypocrite, judge, jury and fool herself. She makes it too easy......but I'll take it.



alcameron said:


> I rest my case.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Bravo! I'm rethinking my position.



Poor Purl said:


> Marilyn, thank you for interrupting this absurd religious name-calling session and showing us what's important.


----------



## mariaps (Sep 4, 2011)

alcameron said:


> Don't think you should be commenting on Susan's Catholicism. I also don't think you should be name-calling and acting as judge. Just my opinion about what I am told about how good Christians should act and speak.


As Catholics, we are taught to have respect for all people and their Religious beliefs. To find the good in them. And we should expect the same in return.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> Hey Al....I think you're bothering her.


Was that a self proclamation, KPG? You are projecting again. Go see your shrink. It's time.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Wrong again. 12 years of Catholic education, and all religion classes done during the school day and by the sisters of that school. Sad how you grasp at straws to justify your erroneous thinking
> 
> I do not interpret Catholic doctrine, I follow it


Do you follow the Church while it protects sex offenders and child abusers?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Interesting, Mother Pearl commands LovetheLake, "So Stop It!" because LTL posted Catholic doctrine.
> 
> Then to Susanmos2000, Mother Pearl calmly tells her "Please step back," from her slams against Catholic doctrine.
> 
> ...


And KPG is a practicing fool.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> What have you done to inspire the faith in others? Nothing. All you can do is spew false accusations and throw temper tantrums because you were found wrong and called on the carpet for it.
> 
> I am sure you and your other Obamacultists will have a field day with put downs. How sad that this is all you and all the other cultists have nothing to do all day but put people down and read blogs all day. Maybe your spiritual advisor can help you get a life and do something worthwhile. Sorry, that would too hard for you, and take time away from your small world of KP and putting people down


And you don't?? You have never posted anything positive. Keep protecting those perverted priests now, LTL.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> No. You preach to everyone else. I skip it. Am I the only one?


Exactly right, she preaches, but no I am not listening. I have been scrolling past her sermons for quite some time now. Well maybe KPG is listening.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

alcameron said:


> I don't presume to know what's in a person's heart, but if nasty words come out of that person's mouth repeatedly, it sure ain't love!
> Is it "righteous anger" that makes fun of a President? Is it righteous anger that makes a person call another "stupid?" Is it righteous anger that belittles a person? Is it righteous anger that denies food stamps or a living wage to the poor?
> I don't believe scripture should be used to rationalize behavior. I think it should guide how you behave.


Well said, al!!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Do you follow the Church while it protects sex offenders and child abusers?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Good question. No answer, I bet.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> And KPG is a practicing fool.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Your pen overflows with truth tonight Patty.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> And KPG is a practicing fool.


Wrong, Patty. She's so good she doesn't need any practice.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

This thread has taken on the tone of a southern Baptist tent revival. 
"Can I hear an Amen????
Send your checks and money orders to old Reverand Billy Bob, now.. (Hell, we even accept casino chips) and the Lord will bestow good fortune upon you. Don't forget to send that money now. Y'all hear?
Bless you! Bless You!! You have been healed and will be spared of final damnation! Can I get another Amen??
Get those pledges in now! Don't wait for your redemption another teeny weeny little minute now! Y'all hear? Amen, Amen, Amen!"........


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Have you heard the Michael Dunn trial has a hung jury on his 1st degree murder charge, but he was found guilty of 3 charges of 2nd degree attempted murder, each count carries a 20-year minimum mandatory sentence. These sentences must run consecutively, and 1 charge of shooting or throwing a missile which carries a 15 year sentence. They have said they will retry him on the murder charge so I hope they do. He is definitely a racist and wrote letters to prove it. They should have used those in the trial and they didn't. That is why he shot the young man. Had the kid been white, would he have shot him?


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Interesting, Mother Pearl commands LovetheLake, "So Stop It!" because LTL posted Catholic doctrine.
> 
> Then to Susanmos2000, Mother Pearl calmly tells her "Please step back," from her slams against Catholic doctrine.
> 
> ...


And you are so sweet. :?:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Jokim said:


> LTL you have done all within your ability to show them the truth about the Church, but, 'there are none so blind that those who will not see'! They refuse to open their eyes and ears to the truth.


When ignorance is bliss 'tis folly to be wise.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Would you stop! You post nothing but slams to me and every person who isn't a Liberal.
> 
> Read you own darn posts you JUST WROTE above beginning at 18:34 before you judged and slammed me again.
> 
> Hyprocite, judge, jury and fool!


You are so sweet and charming.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

alcameron said:


> I'm trying, and you aren't. That seems to be a big difference.


No, she really is trying, so very, very trying. She is so trying she is making everyone laugh at her foolishness. Oh well, reading her posts is cheaper than taking laxettes.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> And KPG is a practicing fool.


I am not sure if you mean that in terms of a 'practicing GP' or someone who is still learning the ropes. She is not still learning to be a fool she is the grand master of fools.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

NJG said:


> Have you heard the Michael Dunn trial has a hung jury on his 1st degree murder charge, but he was found guilty of 3 charges of 2nd degree attempted murder, each count carries a 20-year minimum mandatory sentence. These sentences must run consecutively, and 1 charge of shooting or throwing a missile which carries a 15 year sentence. They have said they will retry him on the murder charge so I hope they do. He is definitely a racist and wrote letters to prove it. They should have used those in the trial and they didn't. That is why he shot the young man. Had the kid been white, would he have shot him?


We will really never know if he would have shot him anyway. He may have just been in the middle of a power and control fix. 
That jury... ppffftttt!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> No, she really is trying, so very, very trying. She is so trying she is making everyone laugh at her foolishness. Oh well, reading her posts is cheaper than taking laxettes.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Maybe because He knows the end and knows you will never change. You are happy the way your are and think you don't need them because you are smarter than He is. He is still the kind and loving God. He never changes but He know you will not. And again God doesn't not condemn anyone to hell. He lets you do that all yourself. And I must say there are a lot doing a find job too.


I never will change? Wrong. I have changed my convictions as I grow, because beliefs always change is one is to grow. Those who don't change in some way are stunted in their growth, just as a child who does not start walking is stunted in a way in their growth.

First off, what "them" are you talking about in your statement "you don't need them because you are smarter than He is"? God in Christianity is a trinity, yet there is one god in that faith, not multiple. I have not once stated I am "smarter" than he is. I have no basis for making a statement like that as their is no evidence to show how smart he would be, the Bible was written by men therefore are no gods direct words.

And the Christian god is almighty in that belief, he controls everything. Therefore when Adam and Eve sinned, he was the one who set the "penalty" of sin. He was the one who required Jesus' death. He could just as easily have required another payment, but he chose to require death. If he is almighty and can stop Satan and other evils than he is the one responsible for all evil. It is just as a parent who stands to the side and lets their child throw a stone at and break a window. The parent is responsible because the parent saw and could have stopped the child. The same is true with the Christian god. So yes, god does condemn people to hell because he has the power to set a different penalty or just forgive. So no, I don't think that the Christian god is kind and loving. No kind and loving person would sentence their "children" to endless suffering for mistakes or misbehavior.

Lastly, how do you know what I think or believe? I do apologize if you actually are a mind reader, but if you are you really need to hone your skills because you were way off base with your interpretation of my thoughts.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

> Country Bumpkins wrote:
> I said maybe. I thought you would know I was saying my opinion.
> LK asked me a question about why I thought God would harden His heart so I answered her. So you please stop.





> (Poor Purl) The following sounds pretty definite, not like an opinion at all.





> Country Bumpkins wrote:
> You are happy the way your are and think you don't need them because you are smarter than He is. He is still the kind and loving God. He never changes but He know you will not. And again God doesn't not condemn anyone to hell. He lets you do that all yourself. And I must say there are a lot doing a find job too.


You are right Poor Purl is was stated in a definitive manner.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Any god that asks a man to kill his son then tells him at the last second that it was a just a test easily fits the definition of a sadist and not remotely kind and loving. About that moment, if I was one who just had to have a god to follow in order to feel happy & secure I'd be looking around for another one.


----------



## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

alcameron said:


> Don't think you should be commenting on Susan's Catholicism. I also don't think you should be name-calling and acting as judge. Just my opinion about what I am told about how good Christians should act and speak.


You and your friends have been putting out plenty of your own sanctimonious hyprocrisy - name calling, judging, disparaging remarks, belittling, commenting on people's faith and morals ... There's no moral high ground on your side to criticize anyone else's comments.

Over the course of the last few months, I've read some of the crude, lewd and totally disgusting statements made by some of your friends. You complain about using the words stupid or idiot, but I didn't see you complaining when my friends were called vermin with graphic descriptions on how they could be squashed or bringing out the Raid cans. There are plenty more examples that are as bad or worse.

I suggest you and your friends clean up your own act before condemning others


----------



## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

alcameron wrote:
I don't presume to know what's in a person's heart, but if nasty words come out of that person's mouth repeatedly, it sure ain't love!
Is it "righteous anger" that makes fun of a President? Is it righteous anger that makes a person call another "stupid?" Is it righteous anger that belittles a person? Is it righteous anger that denies food stamps or a living wage to the poor?
I don't believe scripture should be used to rationalize behavior. I think it should guide how you behave.

Well said, al!



BrattyPatty said:


> Well said, al!!


It would be better said if you applied the same standards to yourselves


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

west coast kitty said:


> alcameron wrote:
> I don't presume to know what's in a person's heart, but if nasty words come out of that person's mouth repeatedly, it sure ain't love!
> Is it "righteous anger" that makes fun of a President? Is it righteous anger that makes a person call another "stupid?" Is it righteous anger that belittles a person? Is it righteous anger that denies food stamps or a living wage to the poor?
> I don't believe scripture should be used to rationalize behavior. I think it should guide how you behave.
> ...


Yes kitty,as it would be for everyone to try the same standards.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> And you don't?? You have never posted anything positive. Keep protecting those perverted priests now, LTL.


Again with the judgmental attitude. Just because you may feel that a comment I made is not positive, does not mean that is fact.

I am in total support that any child molester be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, be it a father, mother, uncle, priest, rabbi............ To make a comment that I don't is almost slanderous. I have never supported how the Church tried to deal with these child molesters, it was wrong. Period.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> Any god that asks a man to kill his son then tells him at the last second that it was a just a test easily fits the definition of a sadist and not remotely kind and loving. About that moment, if I was one who just had to have a god to follow in order to feel happy & secure I'd be looking around for another one.


sumpleby
I have been searching but unable to find a merciful God. Look at all of the suffering on this Earth - it speaks for itself.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Again with the judgmental attitude. Just because you may feel that a comment I made is not positive, does not mean that is fact.
> 
> I am in total support that any child molester be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, be it a father, mother, uncle, priest, rabbi............ To make a comment that I don't is almost slanderous. I have never supported how the Church tried to deal with these child molesters, it was wrong. Period.


lovethelake
Would you like to say that no-one knew about the crimes? Really?
Everyone looked "the other way" and now that all is in the open, condemnation is in order? Give me a brake. The Churches illogical rules have brought about molestation. It is really that simple. Face the music.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

You may say, What about all those people who havent heard about Jesus? I dont want to be part of any gods heaven that would keep out all those innocent souls. etc., etc., etc.,

We cannot answer that specifically with scripture. We can however speak truth that we will all be judged according to the knowledge that we have been given. If you have heard the gospel message, and have rejected Christ for any reason, then that is what you will be judged on. 

Dont be so foolish as to make your eternal decision, your eternal destination, based on what you think someone else will or will not be getting. That is none of your business. 

Thats another one of those absolutes!


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> And KPG is a practicing fool.


Bratty Patty
and she keep underlining it with everyone of her posts.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Lkholcomb said:


> I never will change? Wrong. I have changed my convictions as I grow, because beliefs always change is one is to grow.


>>>>>>>WRONG. One strengthens their understanding and beliefs as they age. They don't "change" them particularly when they are correct. Your statement is ridiculous.

So, as an example of what you just wrote: when you learned and believed 2 x 8 = 16, as you aged you changed your belief and then believed the answer = something else.

Or perhaps you were convicted that you were a female and a nice person, but after ten years, changed your beliefs to think that you were instead a male and a jerk.



Lkholcomb said:


> ... their is no evidence to show how smart he (God) would be, the Bible was written by men therefore are no gods direct words.


>>>>>> I thought you said you were not smarter than God prior; so now that you are older, why don't you change your convictions and believe the Truth? I.E. The Bible _is_ the direct words of God. Another point; if you are not smarter than God, how do you know the Bible isn't the direct words of God?



Lkholcomb said:


> Therefore when Adam and Eve sinned, he was the one who set the "penalty" of sin. He was the one who required Jesus' death. He could just as easily have required another payment, but he chose to require death. If he is almighty and can stop Satan and other evils than he is the one responsible for all evil.


>>>>>> WRONG. God chose everyone's death as the only way to enter His eternal Kingdom. God gave everyone, that means *you* free will. It, therefore, is only *you* who can choose to do evil, listen to Satan rather than God, and determine your final eternity. *You* choose evil (during or after your earthly life); so it's on *you*, so I suggest you choose wisely.



Lkholcomb said:


> It is just as a parent who stands to the side and lets their child throw a stone at and break a window. The parent is responsible because the parent saw and could have stopped the child.


>>>>> WRONG. The child is responsible for the action (the child's will got the job done). The parent, the FATHER (God), is only responsible to raise the child in the way the child should go so the child will not depart from it. The Father, (God) is responsible to teach and nuture the child and allow the consequences of the child's actions to settle the child's debt.



Lkholcomb said:


> So yes, god does condemn people to hell because he has the power to set a different penalty or just forgive. So no, I don't think that the Christian god is kind and loving. No kind and loving person would sentence their "children" to endless suffering for mistakes or misbehavior.


>>>>>WRONG. Each person condemns himself to Hell for not believing in the Father, the Son, and The Holy Ghost and for not accepting Him (the Trinity) and not seeking forgiveness of his sins and not following Him.



Lkholcomb said:


> Lastly, how do you know what I think or believe? I do apologize if you actually are a mind reader, but if you are you really need to hone your skills because you were way off base with your interpretation of my thoughts.


>>>>> She knows what you think and believe because you have told us and just did again in this post of yours.

I think it is time for you to "hone your skills" and "change your convictions" because *you* are WAY off base understanding the Christian God and telling Christians what they believe because, frankly, you don't know.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Lkholcomb wrote: I never will change? Wrong. I have changed my convictions as I grow, because beliefs always change is one is to grow.
> 
> >>>>>>>WRONG. One strengthens their understanding and beliefs as they age. They don't "change" them particularly when they are correct. Your statement is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


knitpresentfits
you are really full of it.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> If the person recognizes their mistakes and misbehaviors and asks that asking the kind and loving God for forgiveness. Then realizes that they are nothing but a sinner and through their belief in Jesus Christ, is the only way to Heaven.
> 
> Anyone who has read this thread the last few days, will not have the excuse, that they did not know the only way to heaven.
> 
> This is what is in the Bible, which is the inspired word of God.


Again, (ad nauseum,) in your opinion.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> >>>>> She knows what you think and believe because you have told us and just did again in this post of yours.
> 
> I think it is time for you to "hone your skills" and "change your convictions" because *you* are WAY off base understanding the Christian God and telling Christians what they believe because, frankly, you don't know.


Oh please do go away and be quiet, we are fed up with your idiotic rants. But then, I guess it does keep you off the streets.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for proving what you believe. Bless you.



knitpresentgifts said:


> >>>>> She knows what you think and believe because you have told us and just did again in this post of yours.
> 
> I think it is time for you to "hone your skills" and "change your convictions" because *you* are WAY off base understanding the Christian God and telling Christians what they believe because, frankly, you don't know.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Oh please do go away and be quiet, we are fed up with your idiotic rants. But then, I guess it does keep you off the streets.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Please quit with the religion discussion. Everyone has a right to their own belief and no right to try to push it onto someone else. Drop it, please. You will change nothing. Isn't there enough going wrong in this world that we can find to discuss?


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> lovethelake
> Would you like to say that no-one knew about the crimes? Really?
> Everyone looked "the other way" and now that all is in the open, condemnation is in order? Give me a brake. The Churches illogical rules have brought about molestation. It is really that simple. Face the music.


The only thing I can say is that I have never had any personal information regarding a pedophile priest and have never know anyone that has said they were abused. Therefore I had no reason to contact the police, which I would have done in a heartbeat. I have always wanted those men (or any person) convicted of child abuse to be convicted to the fullest extent of the law. I did not look the other way, so no not everyone did. The Church's rules did not cause the sexual abuse, it was the person's choice and behavior that caused the abuse. If a person wants to become a member of the Catholic clergy, they are very well aware of the vow of celibacy, and it is their choice whether or not to commit to that vow.

To blame all Catholics of ignoring, supporting, denying........ the sexual abuse of children is like blaming all Germans for allowing the Holocaust to happen and continue. Blame and punish those that did, but do not condemn those that are blameless.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> knitpresentfits
> you are really full of it.


Huck/Ingried,

Why don't you try refuting my words with what you believe instead of posting ridiculous and trite phrases.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Oh please do go away and be quiet, we are fed up with your idiotic rants. But then, I guess it does keep you off the streets.


I answered someone's post. If you are not interested in the discussion, I suggest _you_ go away.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> To blame all Catholics of ignoring, supporting, denying........ the sexual abuse of children is like blaming all Germans for allowing the Holocaust to happen and continue. Blame and punish those that did, but do not condemn those that are blameless.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> If the person recognizes their mistakes and misbehaviors and asks that asking the kind and loving God for forgiveness. Then realizes that they are nothing but a sinner and through their belief in Jesus Christ, is the only way to Heaven.
> 
> Anyone who has read this thread the last few days, will not have the excuse, that they did not know the only way to heaven.
> 
> This is what is in the Bible, which is the inspired word of God.


Prove it! Not with scripture, real proof.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Huck/Ingried,
> 
> Why don't you try refuting my words with what you believe instead of posting ridiculous and trite phrases.


aBecause she has none.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Shout out to any Liberal or Dem!

Vocal J. Blighter doesn't want you posting on this thread, and more accurately, the Obamacare thread, (both begun by Non Liberals) 'cause she has said numerous times on a recent thread she started that is "her" thread and the place for all the LWNs and this thread is the place for the RWNs and not *you*.

So, you'd better follow Jody's orders and scoot on out of this thread! :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

rocky1991 said:


> Prove it! Not with scripture, real proof.


Prove she is wrong, not with your words, opinions, Jewish Bible or blogs, real proof.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The clerics confessed to their confessors and many were transferred without warning to other unsuspecting parishes with private access to children.

I accept that you may not have been aware, but many were. The Church reacted to keep the Church from embarrassment rather than protect children. This means the Church's rules did facilitate the abuse. That is the reason the Church has been sued effectively. At this point, the loss of money is the only punishment, except for the abusers who have gone to trial.

There are still church members who refuse to believe or minimize what's happened.



lovethelake said:


> The only thing I can say is that I have never had any personal information regarding a pedophile priest and have never know anyone that has said they were abused. Therefore I had no reason to contact the police, which I would have done in a heartbeat. I have always wanted those men (or any person) convicted of child abuse to be convicted to the fullest extent of the law. I did not look the other way, so no not everyone did. The Church's rules did not cause the sexual abuse, it was the person's choice and behavior that caused the abuse. If a person wants to become a member of the Catholic clergy, they are very well aware of the vow of celibacy, and it is their choice whether or not to commit to that vow.
> 
> To blame all Catholics of ignoring, supporting, denying........ the sexual abuse of children is like blaming all Germans for allowing the Holocaust to happen and continue. Blame and punish those that did, but do not condemn those that are blameless.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Because you don't listen and take great pride in having a forum to preach? Huck's too smart. Ingried is somewhat inactive. God bless.



knitpresentgifts said:


> Huck/Ingried,
> 
> Why don't you try refuting my words with what you believe instead of posting ridiculous and trite phrases.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

damemary said:


> The clerics confessed to their confessors and many were transferred without warning to other unsuspecting parishes with private access to children.
> 
> I accept that you may not have been aware, but many were. The Church reacted to keep the Church from embarrassment rather than protect children. This means the Church's rules did facilitate the abuse. That is the reason the Church has been sued effectively. At this point, the loss of money is the only punishment, except for the abusers who have gone to trial.
> 
> There are still church members who refuse to believe or minimize what's happened.


I hope what you say is not true, but unfortunately it may be for a very very small group of people. But to be constantly throwing it up in the faces that are blameless for no other reason but to humiliate the innocent is just wrong.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Shout out to any Liberal or Dem!
> 
> Vocal J. Blighter doesn't want you posting on this thread, and more accurately, the Obamacare thread, (both begun by Non Liberals) 'cause she has said numerous times on a recent thread she started that is "her" thread and the place for all the LWNs and this thread is the place for the RWNs and not *you*.
> 
> So, you'd better follow Jody's orders and scoot on out of this thread! :XD: :XD: :XD:


Must not forget tha VJ CBlighter also said on her new thread the the right has taken over ever thread that the left have started.

Lets see

WOW

ObamaCare

A garden of friendship

I am sure there are more that the Left have started and the right have taken over.

Oh lets not forget FFDP&P we are not to post on POV but they can post on ours. It must be because they started it?????

Oh and please stay off new thread as you do know that she started it. I can agree on that one. But what the heck I think it is time to take over another one don't you.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

west coast kitty said:


> You and your friends have been putting out plenty of your own sanctimonious hyprocrisy - name calling, judging, disparaging remarks, belittling, commenting on people's faith and morals ... There's no moral high ground on your side to criticize anyone else's comments.
> 
> Over the course of the last few months, I've read some of the crude, lewd and totally disgusting statements made by some of your friends. You complain about using the words stupid or idiot, but I didn't see you complaining when my friends were called vermin with graphic descriptions on how they could be squashed or bringing out the Raid cans. There are plenty more examples that are as bad or worse.
> 
> I suggest you and your friends clean up your own act before condemning others


That will never happen as they feel superior to anyone who does not agree with them. 
They do so love to use the name calling card when they can. which is usual ever other post.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> I hope what you say is not true, but unfortunately it may be for a very very small group of people. But to be constantly throwing it up in the faces that are blameless for no other reason but to humiliate the innocent is just wrong.


It has been proven that it is true and it is not for a very very small group. Yes there are blameless and innocent people, but it is the history of the Catholic church and it will never go away. I have always believed that because of the celibacy of the catholic church it attracted the pedifiles, and the worst thing about it is knowing and covering it up. My granddaughter is going to the catholic church because her Dad is. I worry about her all the time.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> The only thing I can say is that I have never had any personal information regarding a pedophile priest and have never know anyone that has said they were abused. Therefore I had no reason to contact the police, which I would have done in a heartbeat. I have always wanted those men (or any person) convicted of child abuse to be convicted to the fullest extent of the law. I did not look the other way, so no not everyone did. The Church's rules did not cause the sexual abuse, it was the person's choice and behavior that caused the abuse. If a person wants to become a member of the Catholic clergy, they are very well aware of the vow of celibacy, and it is their choice whether or not to commit to that vow.
> 
> To blame all Catholics of ignoring, supporting, denying........ the sexual abuse of children is like blaming all Germans for allowing the Holocaust to happen and continue. Blame and punish those that did, but do not condemn those that are blameless.


I so agree with you lady. I do not think one Catholic would condone that behavior. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Prove she is wrong, not with your words, opinions, Jewish Bible or blogs, real proof.


Sweetheart there is no proof on either side...MOOT. There is no answer just belief/faith. Cannot be proven.

Sadly to say, this thread is beating a dead horse.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> I so agree with you lady. I do not think one Catholic would condone that behavior. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````


Then why did it get covered up and the priest moved someplace so he could do it again? It was condoned.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

rocky1991 said:


> Prove it! Not with scripture, real proof.


The proof is THE TOMB WAS EMPTY!

The Romans knew it was empty, why else would they claim that the friends of Christ stole the body away after it was surrounded all night by a squad of Roman soldiers?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

NJG said:


> Then why did it get covered up and the priest moved someplace so he could do it again? It was condoned.


You're quite correct...there is corruption and deception everywhere, the Church and the White House alike.

For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.


----------



## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

NJG said:


> It has been proven that it is true and it is not for a very very small group. Yes there are blameless and innocent people, but it is the history of the Catholic church and it will never go away. I have always believed that because of the celibacy of the catholic church it attracted the pedifiles, and the worst thing about it is knowing and covering it up. My granddaughter is going to the catholic church because her Dad is. I worry about her all the time.


There is NO RELATIONSHIP between celibacy and pedophilia - check with any qualified medical professional. Pedophiles choose careers and activities that let them get close to their targets -- that includes teachers, coaches, scout leaders, youth counselors/volunteers and clergy of ALL denominiations.

Both United and Anglican churches also operated schools in Canada and have had sexual abuse charges. There have also been reported charges in non-religious boarding and day schools, cubs & scouts, sports teams and on and on.

Each case should be fully investigated and fully prosecuted where warranted. Anyone knowingly covering up such a crime should also be prosecuted.

I'm not Catholic, but DH and many family and friends are, and your comment shows a lot of prejudice against the Catholic faith.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It is true. You can hope whatever you wish, but that 'hope' is part of the problem, like it or not.



lovethelake said:


> I hope what you say is not true, but unfortunately it may be for a very very small group of people. But to be constantly throwing it up in the faces that are blameless for no other reason but to humiliate the innocent is just wrong.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

What about all the bishops? Your thinking hurts the future of the Catholic Church.



theyarnlady said:


> I so agree with you lady. I do not think one Catholic would condone that behavior. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

damemary said:


> What about all the bishops? Your thinking hurts the future of the Catholic Church.


I guess all of those Cardinals and Bishops were outsourced positions, cheaper rates, maybe?


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I answered someone's post. If you are not interested in the discussion, I suggest _you_ go away.


Yes you did answer someone's post, but you posted your reply on the open forum which indicated you wanted it read by everyone. If you did not wish other readers to read your reply you would have posted the person a PM. Seeing as you did not reply in private, anyone who reads our words can post a reply. If you do not wish people to reply to your posts, keep the private, send PMs. No, you do not wish to do that, you want everyone to read what you have to say, you believe your utterances are so profound, so enlightened. They are not. You sprout garbage and nonsense. I am interested in the discussion but I am tired of your continued bible bashing. As I said, if you do not want people to read your comments and reply to them, keep them private by sending PMs.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> I so agree with you lady. I do not think one Catholic would condone that behavior. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
> 
> But every bishop who ever transferred an abusing priest, without taking said priest out of any community that included minors, did condone that behavior.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> The proof is THE TOMB WAS EMPTY!
> 
> The Romans knew it was empty, why else would they claim that the friends of Christ stole the body away after it was surrounded all night by a squad of Roman soldiers?


Your opinion, not fact.


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> The proof is THE TOMB WAS EMPTY!
> 
> The Romans knew it was empty, why else would they claim that the friends of Christ stole the body away after it was surrounded all night by a squad of Roman soldiers?


Prove it!.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> The proof is THE TOMB WAS EMPTY!
> 
> The Romans knew it was empty, why else would they claim that the friends of Christ stole the body away after it was surrounded all night by a squad of Roman soldiers?


Amen, amen, amen!


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

NJG said:


> It has been proven that it is true and it is not for a very very small group. Yes there are blameless and innocent people, but it is the history of the Catholic church and it will never go away. I have always believed that because of the celibacy of the catholic church it attracted the pedifiles, and the worst thing about it is knowing and covering it up. My granddaughter is going to the catholic church because her Dad is. I worry about her all the time.


The reason I worry about her is because you are her grandmother. You base your hatred of the Catholic Church that happened over 70 years ago. You fill your granddaughter's mind of apprehension and fear over men that have dedicated their lives to be of service to God and His children.

If celibacy was the reason for the abuse, then are you concluding that Jesus and his apostles were child molesters because they were celibate? The reason for the vow of celibacy is to live like Jesus and the apostles lived; dedicating their entire lives for others. If celibacy is the problem then why aren't the Sisters of the Catholic Church not child molesters? If celibacy is the problem why are not Buddhist monks child molesters?


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

NJG said:


> Then why did it get covered up and the priest moved someplace so he could do it again? It was condoned.


Why did the Germans not stop the Holocaust?

The child abuse has been acknowledged, people have been punished and a vow not to let it happen again. With your Hillary mentality, it happened so long ago, what difference does it make?


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> The reason I worry about her is because you are her grandmother. You base your hatred of the Catholic Church that happened over 70 years ago. You fill your granddaughter's mind of apprehension and fear over men that have dedicated their lives to be of service to God and His children.
> 
> If celibacy was the reason for the abuse, then are you concluding that Jesus and his apostles were child molesters because they were celibate? The reason for the vow of celibacy is to live like Jesus and the apostles lived; dedicating their entire lives for others. If celibacy is the problem then why aren't the Sisters of the Catholic Church not child molesters? If celibacy is the problem why are not Buddhist monks child molesters?


What are you talking about regarding 70 years ago?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

maysmom said:


> theyarnlady said:
> 
> 
> > I so agree with you lady. I do not think one Catholic would condone that behavior. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
> ...


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> The reason I worry about her is because you are her grandmother. You base your hatred of the Catholic Church that happened over 70 years ago. You fill your granddaughter's mind of apprehension and fear over men that have dedicated their lives to be of service to God and His children.
> 
> If celibacy was the reason for the abuse, then are you concluding that Jesus and his apostles were child molesters because they were celibate? The reason for the vow of celibacy is to live like Jesus and the apostles lived; dedicating their entire lives for others. If celibacy is the problem then why aren't the Sisters of the Catholic Church not child molesters? If celibacy is the problem why are not Buddhist monks child molesters?


We certainly don't know that they, or at least some, were not child rapists. Rape, it is rape. Molesting is such a nice clean sounding word for rape.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

NJG said:


> It has been proven that it is true and it is not for a very very small group. Yes there are blameless and innocent people, but it is the history of the Catholic church and it will never go away. I have always believed that because of the celibacy of the catholic church it attracted the pedifiles, and the worst thing about it is knowing and covering it up. My granddaughter is going to the catholic church because her Dad is. I worry about her all the time.


I can't condone the pedophilia and ensuing cover-up discovered in the Catholic church and don't even want to try...but the issue of how Catholics should deal with it isn't nearly as cut and dried as it might appear.

Baptists, Methodists, and Congregationalists can stop going to church and remain in God's good graces as long as they keep His message in their hearts. A Catholic with full knowledge cannot. It's a mortal sin (translation: a one-way ticket to Hell if He so chooses) to skip Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, and to not partake in the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession in oldspeak) and receive Communion at least once a year.

The current scandal is so far reaching that it can't be dealt with by simply switching parishes--and dropping out completely could, as I said, get a good Catholic dropped-kicked straight into the fiery depths. It's a terrible dilemma and I don't think there are any easy answers.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Your opinion, not fact.


On the contrary, its only your opinion that it is not factual. Most serious scholars today consider the Bible to be a reliable historical reference.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> knitpresentfits
> you are really full of it.


Yup. I am way to tired and exhausted to even try to respond to that post. Had only 2 hours sleep last night and have been up since 3 and running around at my kids' cheer competition all day.


----------



## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> Of course, and there had to be other priests who knew, who watched the grooming, who saw that it was certain vulnerable kids who were targeted.
> I think law enforcement calls that being an accessory before/after the fact.


It's a good thing that there is much more awareness of sexual abuse (or any other form of abuse for that matter). But up until fairly recently that just didn't register in most people's minds unless it was right out in the open or violence was involved. And pedophiles exist in all walks of life - they weren't always noticed in families, schools or communities either.

There have always been "funny" uncles and other violators that got away with their crimes because our minds just didn't think of going in that direction. And a lot of children never told anyone or weren't believed if they did tell. Yes there were some leaders and authorities that deliberately looked the other way, but most people just couldn't imagine something like that happening.

And there were also parents that looked the other way and accepted settlements with confidentiality clauses rather than reporting abuse to the authorities which would also have saved other children from harm.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> On the contrary, its only your opinion that it is not factual. Most serious scholars today consider the Bible to be a reliable historical reference.


Only the parts for which there is independent evidence. The mere fact that the Bible says it - without outside corroboration - is not accepted as evidence by anyone serious.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

west coast kitty said:


> It's a good thing that there is much more awareness of sexual abuse (or any other form of abuse for that matter). But up until fairly recently that just didn't register in most people's minds unless it was right out in the open or violence was involved. And pedophiles exist in all walks of life - they weren't always noticed in families, schools or communities either.
> 
> There have always been "funny" uncles and other violators that got away with their crimes because our minds just didn't think of going in that direction. And a lot of children never told anyone or weren't believed if they did tell. Yes there were some leaders and authorities that deliberately looked the other way, but most people just couldn't imagine something like that happening.
> 
> And there were also parents that looked the other way and accepted settlements with confidentiality clauses rather than reporting abuse to the authorities which would also have saved other children from harm.


Absolutely, and sadly, right. And celibacy has had nothing to do with it. The wife of that "funny" uncle never complained about lack of satisfaction.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

http://www.gnosis.org/library/gosnic.htm. Acts of Pilate. Tells of Christ and Pilate


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> The reason I worry about her is because you are her grandmother. You base your hatred of the Catholic Church that happened over 70 years ago. You fill your granddaughter's mind of apprehension and fear over men that have dedicated their lives to be of service to God and His children.
> 
> If celibacy was the reason for the abuse, then are you concluding that Jesus and his apostles were child molesters because they were celibate? The reason for the vow of celibacy is to live like Jesus and the apostles lived; dedicating their entire lives for others. If celibacy is the problem then why aren't the Sisters of the Catholic Church not child molesters? If celibacy is the problem why are not Buddhist monks child molesters?


lovethelake
who can prove that they are not? Give it some time and we shall see the truth. Molesters are everywhere.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> http://www.gnosis.org/library/gosnic.htm. Acts of Pilate. Tells of Christ and Pilate


Country Bumpkins
may we please be spared your religious rantings? Please. Been there, read it all - everyone of us.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Absolutely, and sadly, right. And celibacy has had nothing to do with it. The wife of that "funny" uncle never complained about lack of satisfaction.


Poor Purl
"...ain't that the God's truth" but celibacy adds to the problem.
Change the rules and nuch less abuse will happen. It will never stop but could be curtailed.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Country Bumpkins
> may we please be spared your religious rantings? Please. Been there, read it all - everyone of us.


Ingried I was answering Rocky's post to prove it. Why is a rant?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Jospehus Description of Jesus
> 
> _Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works-a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was (the) Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day._
> 
> ...


Nice work Joey...I was heading in that direction myself

:thumbup:


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> The only thing I can say is that I have never had any personal information regarding a pedophile priest and have never know anyone that has said they were abused. Therefore I had no reason to contact the police, which I would have done in a heartbeat. I have always wanted those men (or any person) convicted of child abuse to be convicted to the fullest extent of the law. I did not look the other way, so no not everyone did. The Church's rules did not cause the sexual abuse, it was the person's choice and behavior that caused the abuse. If a person wants to become a member of the Catholic clergy, they are very well aware of the vow of celibacy, and it is their choice whether or not to commit to that vow.
> 
> To blame all Catholics of ignoring, supporting, denying........ the sexual abuse of children is like blaming all Germans for allowing the Holocaust to happen and continue. Blame and punish those that did, but do not condemn those that are blameless.


http://www.kare11.com/story/news/2014/02/11/testify-catholic-church-sex-abuse-depositions/5410127/ - 50k - Cached - Similar pages
4 days ago ... PAUL, Minn. ... Top Catholic Archdiocesan officials ordered to testify.

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/tag/archdiocese-of-st-paul-and-minneapolis/ - 92k - Cached - Similar pages

I don't blame any who honestly did not know this was going on but many did and kept silent for years while innocent children suffered and these priests were just shuffled from one parish to another by the bishops and archbishops. Even popes were made aware of the problem and kept quiet. The priests who did nothing and let the abuse continue are just as guilty as the priests who raped and sodomized innocent boys and girls over a long period of years. It is disgusting and the courts are finally going to force the higher ups in the church to testify because they will not cooperate with police. Why would they not want to testify? Only one answer and that is that they were in on the cover up and finally many will end up where they should have years ago, in prison. The church in MN has held out talking until the majority of these priests died and that is disgusting. I no longer go to the Catholic church except for weddings and funerals because these "pillars of faith" are no longer people you can trust or look up to. That and other stands the church has taken have turned me away from a church I once loved and I have had to look outside Christianity for God. Then when I see the Christian right on KP it makes me know I have made the right decision. If that is what Christianity does to people like LTL I want nothing to do with them. She is certainly never going to convert anyone to Catholicism let alone Christianity in general by her conduct. Then there are the other bible quoters who seem to think that's how you win people over to Christ. I remember a song that said "you will know they are Christians by there love". Where is that love demonstrated out here KPG and the rest of you? You may as well take sticks and beat people with them. You aren't winning any souls out here for Christ just turning people away. Maybe god will ask you one day, "why did you do that?". What will you say? I don't know.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> You're quite correct...there is corruption and deception everywhere, the Church and the White House alike.
> 
> For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.


And you believe in a myth and nothing more. Where is your proof? You have none. The church always talks about faith that is because it is all stories and the religions world wide have always been used to control the masses. Remember in ancient time the leaders also claimed to be gods and even into recent centuries this has been true. They were educated and kept the masses uneducated so they could not question anything. It has worked very well and still does but more and more people have figured out it was all a nice story to control others.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Poor Purl
> "...ain't that the God's truth" but celibacy adds to the problem.
> Change the rules and nuch less abuse will happen. It will never stop but could be curtailed.


Alcohol abuse probably has more to do with it, the lessening of inhibitions about what was appropriate.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I briefly worked at a Catholic school and before I could start I had to go thru a special training to teach me not to sexually abuse kids. The training opened with a video of a priest telling us what and what not to do. Never once was the Church's culpability mentioned. And I had to sit thru this training while a spokesperson for the predators never once mentioned what the real issue was. Blah!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Poor Purl
> "...ain't that the God's truth" but celibacy adds to the problem.
> Change the rules and nuch less abuse will happen. It will never stop but could be curtailed.


I don't think so. It's not celibacy that makes grown men like little boys, though the men who do might be drawn to the priesthood to get near the boys. The celibacy just makes them not have to explain why they don't show any interest in grown women.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> And you believe in a myth and nothing more. Where is your proof? You have none. The church always talks about faith that is because it is all stories and the religions world wide have always been used to control the masses. Remember in ancient time the leaders also claimed to be gods and even into recent centuries this has been true. They were educated and kept the masses uneducated so they could not question anything. It has worked very well and still does but more and more people have figured out it was all a nice story to control others.


The proof is found at the bottom of your own heart. Can you state that you are without fault, without filth?

No, you cannot...that is because ALL have sinned!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Without filth????????

What is this - some Revival Tent thinking? 

Our Cheeky is as clean as , as, as .................?


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

SQM said:


> Without filth????????
> 
> What is this - some Revival Tent thinking?
> 
> Our Cheeky is as clean as , as, as .................?


Isaiah 64:6 "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags, ..."


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

OOOO! What a sad point of view. I will read something else tonight.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

SQM said:


> OOOO! What a sad point of view. I will read something else tonight.


Suit yourself


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> The proof is found at the bottom of your own heart. Can you state that you are without fault, without filth?
> 
> No, you cannot...that is because ALL have sinned!


Maybe so, but there is not one of us who are in the priesthood who have sexually and physically abused children. There are coverups all over this country. The St Paul diocese is beggibg the court not to release the names of those caught in the child abuse nets. All over the country, more and more are getting caught. 
You can't have it both ways. You can't sexually abuse boys and girls and hide behind the albs and the Catholic Church who is actually protecting these perverts. That is why I chose to leave the Catholic Church. I cannot belong to an organization who can do this and think that it is okay.
It can't get any filthier than that. Find a bible quote for this.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Brava to my precious Brat.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Maybe so, but there is not one of us who are in the priesthood who have sexually and physically abused children. There are coverups all over this country. The St Paul diocese is beggibg the court not to release the names of those caught in the child abuse nets. All over the country, more and more are getting caught.
> You can't have it both ways. You can't sexually abuse boys and girls and hide behind the albs and the Catholic Church who is actually protecting these perverts. That is why I chose to leave the Catholic Church. I cannot belong to an organization who can do this and think that it is okay.
> It can't get any filthier than that. Find a bible quote for this.


I left the Catholic Church myself. I don't condone what transpired. Many have stayed for their own reasons. I don't question that either. We all make our own decisions on how we view those events.

You might call it "Pro-Choice"


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Cheeky stated: If that is what Christianity does to people like LTL I want nothing to do with them. 

And I say: Thank you baby Jesus

Cheeky said: She is certainly never going to convert anyone to Catholicism let alone Christianity in general by her conduct. 

And I say: Wasn't trying to convert anyone, just stating facts. And my general conduct is pretty darn good, you just don't think it is because I disagree with you, and explain why. 

Oh if you loved The Church like you said, you would have stayed and help work with victims, be an advocate for a victim, or be more involved with your parish so that you could maybe detect if something wrong was going on. But no, you chose to bail, and find another totally different kind of god. You did not love Jesus' Church, you just love to trash Her. And that is your choice, but don't blame it on a few priests or for the Church standing firm on Her doctrine.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> I left the Catholic Church myself. I don't condone what transpired. Many have stayed for their own reasons. I don't condone that either.


Holy Cow! We agree on something? :shock:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Cheeky stated: If that is what Christianity does to people like LTL I want nothing to do with them.
> 
> And I say: Thank you baby Jesus
> 
> ...


The victims needed professional counseling. They went to their "spiritual guide" and got raped. To top that off, they watched as the Church herself did absolutely nothing. Instead of prosecuting them, they sent them to a different parish in a different state where they could just find a fresh bunch of children to abuse.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Holy Cow! We agree on something? :shock:


Holy Gaucamole!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Holy Gaucamole!


Holy Moley, Rocky!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Without filth????????
> 
> What is this - some Revival Tent thinking?
> 
> Our Cheeky is as clean as , as, as .................?


Why ask? If you tell her you don't believe the Bible is true, she will try to convince you by quoting ... um ...THE BIBLE.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> I left the Catholic Church myself. I don't condone what transpired. Many have stayed for their own reasons. I don't question that either. We all make our own decisions on how we view those events.
> 
> You might call it "Pro-Choice"


Gerslay
I like that attitude.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Why ask? If you tell her you don't believe the Bible is true, she will try to convince you by quoting ... um ...THE BIBLE.


Poor Purl
ain't that the truth, the whole truth and nothing but......


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> The victims needed professional counseling. They went to their "spiritual guide" and got raped. To top that off, they watched as the Church herself did absolutely nothing. Instead of prosecuting them, they sent them to a different parish in a different state where they could just find a fresh bunch of children to abuse.


BrattyPatt
try to follow the trails of re-assignments and that is exactly what one finds.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> On the contrary, its only your opinion that it is not factual. Most serious scholars today consider the Bible to be a reliable historical reference.


I'd love to hear a few names.


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Why ask? If you tell her you don't believe the Bible is true, she will try to convince you by quoting ... um ...THE BIBLE.


And that is called "circular reasoning."


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> And you believe in a myth and nothing more. Where is your proof? You have none. The church always talks about faith that is because it is all stories and the religions world wide have always been used to control the masses. Remember in ancient time the leaders also claimed to be gods and even into recent centuries this has been true. They were educated and kept the masses uneducated so they could not question anything. It has worked very well and still does but more and more people have figured out it was all a nice story to control others.


Cheeky blighter
you are so smart. I embrace your postings. Huck


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## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Nice work Joey...I was heading in that direction myself
> 
> :thumbup:


And Josephus, while often quoted by religious apologists, is not considered to be a reliable source.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> The reason I worry about her is because you are her grandmother. You base your hatred of the Catholic Church that happened over 70 years ago. You fill your granddaughter's mind of apprehension and fear over men that have dedicated their lives to be of service to God and His children.
> 
> If celibacy was the reason for the abuse, then are you concluding that Jesus and his apostles were child molesters because they were celibate? The reason for the vow of celibacy is to live like Jesus and the apostles lived; dedicating their entire lives for others. If celibacy is the problem then why aren't the Sisters of the Catholic Church not child molesters? If celibacy is the problem why are not Buddhist monks child molesters?


These crimes did not happen 70 years ago. If this were the case there would be only very old people giving evidence before a Royal Commission. It has been going on for a long time though. Have you seen the ages of the victims who are coming forward to give evidence? Their lives were ruined and they still carry the scars. Yes I do personally know men who were abused.

As for children being afraid of the church, what about the Brisbane girl who was raped by her teacher at a Catholic school in 2007? Her teacher has been jailed. Not a priest but a teacher at a Catholic school, and she was not the only one.

Buddhist Monks follow different precepts to Catholic priests. There have not been any complaints made against Buddhist monks. Do you know about any cases? If so, please come forward with your knowledge.

Catholic nums may have been nasty bitches, I know I was taught by three, but no complaints of a sexual indiscretion have come to light. Once again if you have knowledge, please make it public.

And you know for certain that Jesus and his apostles were celibate? You are following the inquiries being held into tis question in Australai? Of course you are, you always strive to be abreast of all knowledge into this matter.

You do know when the rules relating to celebacy in the priesthood were introduced. I will just remind you of a few fact you may have forgotten.

304 Cannon33 of the Council of Elvira seems to be the first written evidence of a mandate demanding priestly celebacy
11th century, Pope Beneditc V111, responding to the decline in priestly morality issued a decree against clerical marriage and prohibited the children of priests from inheriting property.
1139 the second Lateran Council issued a rule forbidding priests to marry.
1563 the Council of Trent reaffirmed the tradition of Celebacy.

The rule of celebacy was not mandate when Jesus and his apostles were alive, it was introduced later. It was also introduced to ensure that any property the prieat had went to the church and the Pope, and not the priests children. This was a means to fund their wars and build their cathederals. Priests often came from wealthy families. It was a sign of prestige to have a son a priest.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Cheeky blighter
> you are so smart. I embrace your postings. Huck


Do you print them out first, Huck, or just grip the monitor?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I like Huck. She seems bright and not afraid to speak her mind.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Why did the Germans not stop the Holocaust?
> 
> The child abuse has been acknowledged, people have been punished and a vow not to let it happen again. With your Hillary mentality, it happened so long ago, what difference does it make?


the Germans lived in fear and were too afraid to speak up. Anti Seminism was also rife in Europe at the time. It still is alive in places.

It may not have happened yesterday but the priests and bishops who covered up the mess are still bishops and priests today. What difference does it make. It makes a lot of difference,that is why we are having the enquiry, why people are giving evidence today. You, of course, are following what is taking place into this sorry mess. It happened but a few years ago, I am 73 and I personally know men who are younger than me who were abused. They did not come forward earlier because they still carried the guilt and shame of these attacks.

It is not my 'Hilary mentality' what ever that means, it is my personal knowledge.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> the Germans lived in fear and were too afraid to speak up. Anti Seminism was also rife in Europe at the time. It still is alive in places.
> 
> It may not have happened yesterday but the priests and bishops who covered up the mess are still bishops and priests today. What difference does it make. It makes a lot of difference,that is why we are having the enquiry, why people are giving evidence today. You, of course, are following what is taking place into this sorry mess. It happened but a few years ago, I am 73 and I personally know men who are younger than me who were abused. They did not come forward earlier because they still carried the guilt and shame of these attacks.
> 
> It is not my 'Hilary mentality' what ever that means, it is my personal knowledge.


The "Hillary mentality" refers to Hillary Clinton's reply to the congressional committee when being questioned about the Benghazi attack and the loss of four lives including our Ambassador. Her point was...they're dead now, what difference does it make why it happened, how it happened, and who is and/or who is not responsible. It was and is quite a shocking thing to say!


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> The "Hillary mentality" refers to Hillary Clinton's reply to the congressional committee when being questioned about the Benghazi attack and the loss of four lives including our Ambassador. Her point was...they're dead now, what difference does it make why it happened, how it happened, and who is and/or who is not responsible. It was and is quite a shocking thing to say!


What has this to do with the abuse suffered at the hands of Catholic priests? You seem to be dragging a red herring to deflect blame from the abusing priests.

I ask again, are you following the enquiries into the abuse and the calls for a Royal Commission. I do not know what you would call it, you cannot call it a Royal Commission as you are not a monarchy.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> What has this to do with the abuse suffered at the hands of Catholic priests? You seem to be dragging a red herring to deflect blame from the abusing priests.
> 
> I ask again, are you following the enquiries into the abuse and the calls for a Royal Commission. I do not know what you would call it, you cannot call it a Royal Commission as you are not a monarchy.


I didn't link them. I just informed you of what the "Hillary Mentality" is since you seemed not to know. You can link them or not, as you wish.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes you did answer someone's post, but you posted your reply on the open forum which indicated you wanted it read by everyone. If you did not wish other readers to read your reply you would have posted the person a PM. Seeing as you did not reply in private, anyone who reads our words can post a reply. If you do not wish people to reply to your posts, keep the private, send PMs. No, you do not wish to do that, you want everyone to read what you have to say, you believe your utterances are so profound, so enlightened. They are not. You sprout garbage and nonsense. I am interested in the discussion but I am tired of your continued bible bashing. As I said, if you do not want people to read your comments and reply to them, keep them private by sending PMs.


Are you well? I didn't complain that you or anyone shouldn't read my posts. I replied to a post on a public forum. The questions were public as were my answers.

You told me to be quiet and leave (stop posting my opinion) because you were tired of reading my posts on a public thread.

I simply told you if you are not interested, perhaps you should leave.

I also never said I didn't want replies to my public post. I'm a Christian and don't "bash" the Bible either.

You are one confused person. You say you are interested in the discussion but don't wish to read it nor make relevant posts.

Man, are you ever confused.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> I didn't link them. I just informed you of what the "Hillary Mentality" is since you seemed not to know. You can link them or not, as you wish.


I do hope that if she runs for President, that her words will be remember and brought up .

It seems she does not care about other human beings, but only her own wants and wishes.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Lkholcomb said:


> Yup. I am way to tired and exhausted to even try to respond to that post. Had only 2 hours sleep last night and have been up since 3 and running around at my kids' cheer competition all day.


That's OK; I can wait until you are rested enough to respond.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> I do hope that if she runs for President, that her words will be remember and brought up .
> 
> It seems she does not care about other human beings, but only her own wants and wishes.


I'm sure that there are many who will see to it that her words are long remembered.

:thumbup:


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Are you well? I didn't complain that you or anyone shouldn't read my posts. I replied to a post on a public forum. The questions were public as were my answers.
> 
> You told me to be quiet and leave (stop posting my opinion) because you were tired of reading my posts on a public thread.
> 
> ...


I love it when you spout garbage ect. She just doesn't have sense to know what you are saying.
But I do love more than anything when you stand up for what you believe in.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> If that is what Christianity does to people like LTL I want nothing to do with them. She is certainly never going to convert anyone to Catholicism let alone Christianity in general by her conduct.  Then there are the other bible quoters who seem to think that's how you win people over to Christ. I remember a song that said "you will know they are Christians by there love". Where is that love demonstrated out here KPG and the rest of you? You may as well take sticks and beat people with them. You aren't winning any souls out here for Christ just turning people away. Maybe god will ask you one day, "why did you do that?". What will you say? I don't know.


Dear Vocal Lisa/Jody Briesky/Cheeky Blighter:

Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV

_There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers."_

What will you say when you are called to answer?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Cheeky stated: If that is what Christianity does to people like LTL I want nothing to do with them.
> 
> And I say: Thank you baby Jesus
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> I do hope that if she runs for President, that her words will be remember and brought up .
> 
> It seems she does not care about other human beings, but only her own wants and wishes.


Oh, Hillary cares about other humans, she keeps a list of those she likes and those she doesn't. Then she takes actions accordingly (to her opinions).


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> I love it when you spout garbage ect. She just doesn't have sense to know what you are saying.
> But I do love more than anything when you stand up for what you believe in.


Thank you Yarnie.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Oh, Hillary cares about other humans, she keeps a list of those she likes and those she doesn't. Then she takes actions accordingly (to her opinions).


Gee that sounds so like someone else, oh I know President Obama.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> Gee that sounds so like someone else, oh I know President Obama.


Yes, but Hill didn't have the NSA and IRS working for her when she was Secretary of Flying Around the World at the Taxpayers' Expense. If she becomes Pres, she'll have a bigger staff of support than even Obama has - or else. :-D


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Dear Vocal Lisa/Jody Briesky/Cheeky Blighter:
> 
> Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV
> 
> ...


No idea--but I know that someday you, KPG, will be greeted by Satan with a hearty handshake and a slap on the back.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Interesting...just today Kathleen Willey has said that "Hillary Clinton IS the war on women"

http://www.wnd.com/2014/02/clinton-volunteer-hillary-is-the-war-on-women/


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Unless one is God don't assume anything about who will be greeted by evil or good.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> How sad! You do not know of what you speak!


That's certain.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Interesting...just today Kathleen Willey has said that "Hillary Clinton IS the war on women"
> 
> http://www.wnd.com/2014/02/clinton-volunteer-hillary-is-the-war-on-women/


Thanks very interesting. Seem what i thought she was is what she really was and more.
Not a good track record is it.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Interesting...just today Kathleen Willey has said that "Hillary Clinton IS the war on women"
> 
> http://www.wnd.com/2014/02/clinton-volunteer-hillary-is-the-war-on-women/


Interesting, Gerslay. I just said minutes ago, Hillary has a hit list - not surprisingly lots of women are on it.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Interesting, Gerslay. I just said minutes ago, Hillary has a hit list - not surprisingly lots of women are on it.


Exactly right...she tried to do a hatchet job on every woman who made a claim or a charge against Bill. It is well documented.

(I have a big file on it myself.)


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Exactly right...she tried to do a hatchet job on every woman who made a claim or a charge against Bill. It is well documented.
> 
> (I have a big file on it myself.)


Oh, dear, remind me to never get on your bad side.

Which side is that by the way? 

Clinton likes to be photographed head on only.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Oh, dear, remind me to never get on your bad side.
> 
> Which side is that by the way?
> 
> Clinton likes to be photographed head on only.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

No back of the head shots?


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Monica wasn't Bill's only victim...there were dozens of them going back to his college days and Hillary knew about every one of them and turned a blind eye to it all. 

So much for a liberated woman!


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Just a few notes to add to my last post. I had to open the PC to get the information.

Yes, there have been reports of paedophilia among the Buddhist clergy, and I post below. 
Professor Gananath Obeysekera refers to abuse in Sri Lanka.
Paedophilia Among The Buddhist Clergy
Professor Gananath Obeysekara's views on Buddhist child monks and sexual abuse within monastery
In a recent article Dr. Obeysekere was quoted regarding his views on child monks. The article stated:
" ... But one major reason Obeyesekere opposes child recruitment is that the very young are vulnerable to sexual abuse, which he says is ''notoriously associated'' will all forms of institutionalized monasticism.
The possibility of child abuse in Buddhist monasteries ''must be faced honestly and squarely,'' he stressed.
U.S. Theravada Buddhist Temples accused of harbouring paedophile monk
Patricia Jane | August 23, 2011 at 03:27 pm
On Sunday, a group of protesters gathered at the Wat Dhammaram Theravada Buddhist temple, Southwest Side Chicago, after a report that a former monk at the temple, Camong Boa-Ubol, had sexually assaulted two girls, impregnating one of them.
According to the report, the family of one of the girlsa 12 year-oldreported the incident to the Wat Dhammaram temple in 2000. The family was told that the monk would be returned to Thailand but it soon became known that the pedophile monk is still serving in Wat Buddhavipassana in Long Beach, California, where it is alleged that he still has access to young children.
Back to Queensland.
The child abuse royal commission will today turn its attention to how staff and Catholic Church officials at a Toowoomba primary school in south-east Queensland dealt with allegations of sexual offences against girls between 2007 and 2008.
In 2010, veteran teacher Gerard Vincent Byrnes pleaded guilty to child sex offences committed against 13 girls and was sentenced to 10 years' jail.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Are you well? I didn't complain that you or anyone shouldn't read my posts. I replied to a post on a public forum. The questions were public as were my answers.
> 
> You told me to be quiet and leave (stop posting my opinion) because you were tired of reading my posts on a public thread.
> 
> ...


See, you have done it again. You cannot make a comment unless you are attacking someone. You are saying I am confused, and from you that is a very mild comment.

Your remarks are not relevant to the discussion, they are simply bible bashing and calling people who do not agree with you horrible names. You believe you are the only person with the correct view. This is why I told you to shut up. I am sick and tired of your constant rants and raves. If you have something interesting to say, then please say it, but I just want you to stop quoting parts of the bible at others. The bible is not the only book held in esteem by religious people of the world.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Dear Vocal Lisa/Jody Briesky/Cheeky Blighter:
> 
> Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV
> 
> ...


I will cut and paste your words here as you do not seem to have read them. You are definitely guilty of this.
, and one who sows discord among brothers.
So what will you say when you are called to answer? Oh I know, you will quote passages from the bible and say everyone else is an idiot and does not understand.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> See, you have done it again. You cannot make a comment unless you are attacking someone. You are saying I am confused, and from you that is a very mild comment.
> 
> Your remarks are not relevant to the discussion, they are simply bible bashing and calling people who do not agree with you horrible names. You believe you are the only person with the correct view. This is why I told you to shut up. I am sick and tired of your constant rants and raves. If you have something interesting to say, then please say it, but I just want you to stop quoting parts of the bible at others. The bible is not the only book held in esteem by religious people of the world.


I think you're a little confused about what a bible basher is...its a person who bashes the bible..denigrating it and those who profess it.. Probably describes yourself more than it describes kpg.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> I think you're a little confused about what a bible basher is...its a person who bashes the bible. Probably describes yourself more than it describes kpg.


In Australia a bible basher is someone who uses the bible and quotes from the bible to bash people over the head. It is someone who uses the bible to bash other people.

Bible-thumping
adjective
noun Bible-basher
denoting a person who expounds or follows the teachings of the Bible in an aggressively evangelical way.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> In Australia a bible basher is someone who uses the bible and quotes from the bible to bash people over the head. It is someone who uses the bible to bash other people.
> 
> Bible-thumping
> adjective
> ...


Bible thumping, yes ..but not bible bashing. In the US, its entirely as I state it here. Just for clarification.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Bible thumping, yes ..but not bible bashing. In the US, its entirely as I state it here. Just for clarification.


But you did not clarify this in your post, you just jumped in and accused me. I also cannot see the words "I am sorry but I made a mistake, I was talking about the term as it is used in the United States. I am unaware that it may be used differently in other parts of the world". No, you just jumped in and called me to task. So, your next post will be "I am sorry but I did not know that the term was used differently in Australia." Waiting, shall I go shopping whilst I am waiting?


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> But you did not clarify this in your post, you just jumped in and accused me. I also cannot see the words "I am sorry but I made a mistake, I was talking about the term as it is used in the United States. I am unaware that it may be used differently in other parts of the world". No, you just jumped in and called me to task. So, your next post will be "I am sorry but I did not know that the term was used differently in Australia." Waiting, shall I go shopping whilst I am waiting?


I didn't call you to task. I tried to help you so that you would be more understood. Sheesh you are a grumpy one aren't you?


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> I didn't call you to task. I tried to help you so that you would be more understood. Sheesh you are a grumpy one aren't you?


Not quite an apology but I guess that is as close as we can expect from you. Just more name calling, now I am grumpy. No fed up with your nonsense.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Hahaha...its your tagline!


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Amen, amen, amen!


Amen to a fairy tale? That's what I expect from you, you never fail to rally around fiction.


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Why did the Germans not stop the Holocaust?
> 
> The child abuse has been acknowledged, people have been punished and a vow not to let it happen again. With your Hillary mentality, it happened so long ago, what difference does it make?


It matters if people do not understand history. Just saying it was a long time ago does not mean people have changed. It still goes on today because human nature has not changed. Another failure of your savior. Where was he when those children were being molested by those so called hole men?


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> On the contrary, its only your opinion that it is not factual. Most serious scholars today consider the Bible to be a reliable historical reference.


Name them. Historical. maybe,factual, maybe not. Facts then to change with translations and interpretations.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes you did answer someone's post, but you posted your reply on the open forum which indicated you wanted it read by everyone. If you did not wish other readers to read your reply you would have posted the person a PM. Seeing as you did not reply in private, anyone who reads our words can post a reply. If you do not wish people to reply to your posts, keep the private, send PMs. No, you do not wish to do that, you want everyone to read what you have to say, you believe your utterances are so profound, so enlightened. They are not. You sprout garbage and nonsense. I am interested in the discussion but I am tired of your continued bible bashing. As I said, if you do not want people to read your comments and reply to them, keep them private by sending PMs.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> The "Hillary mentality" refers to Hillary Clinton's reply to the congressional committee when being questioned about the Benghazi attack and the loss of four lives including our Ambassador. Her point was...they're dead now, what difference does it make why it happened, how it happened, and who is and/or who is not responsible. It was and is quite a shocking thing to say!


Here is everything that she said. This is from Reuter's.
Note to conservative readers: The FBI is investigating who was behind the attack.

That is the point Hillary Rodham Clinton was making when she said, Was it because of a protest or was it because of guys out for a walk one night who decided that theyd go kill some Americans? What difference at this point does it make?

Conservatives just love to state that punch-line quote as proof Clinton does not care. This is the actual testimony at the Jan. 13, 2013 Senate committee in full context:

With all due respect, the fact is we had four dead Americans. Was it because of a protest or was it because of guys out for a walk one night who decided that theyd go kill some Americans? What difference at this point does it make? 
It is our job to figure out what happened and do everything we can to prevent it from ever happening again, Senator. Now, honestly, I will do my best to answer your questions about this, but the fact is that people were trying in real time to get to the best information. The IC has a process, I understand, going with the other committees to explain how these talking points came out.

But you know, to be clear, it is, from my perspective, less important today looking backwards as to why these militants decided they did it than to find them and bring them to justice, and then maybe well figure out what was going on in the meantime.

I would be willing to bet that a high percentage of conservatives have never heard nor read Clintons full comments. Thats because mainstream (ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN) broadcast news and conservative (Fox) news intentionally write headlines and produce sound bites that distort the actual facts.

I agree with conservatives that mistakes were made in security at Benghazi. However, no one was trying to mislead the public for political reasons. When you keep drinking the Fox News Kool-Aid and listening to Rush Limbaugh twist the facts, expect to get your perspective factually wrong.


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Ingried I was answering Rocky's post to prove it. Why is a rant?


Because that's what you BB do best.


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> The proof is found at the bottom of your own heart. Can you state that you are without fault, without filth?
> 
> No, you cannot...that is because ALL have sinned!


That's what "they" like you to believe because "they" can control you.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> I can't condone the pedophilia and ensuing cover-up discovered in the Catholic church and don't even want to try...but the issue of how Catholics should deal with it isn't nearly as cut and dried as it might appear.
> 
> Baptists, Methodists, and Congregationalists can stop going to church and remain in God's good graces as long as they keep His message in their hearts. A Catholic with full knowledge cannot. It's a mortal sin (translation: a one-way ticket to Hell if He so chooses) to skip Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, and to not partake in the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession in oldspeak) and receive Communion at least once a year.
> 
> The current scandal is so far reaching that it can't be dealt with by simply switching parishes--and dropping out completely could, as I said, get a good Catholic dropped-kicked straight into the fiery depths. It's a terrible dilemma and I don't think there are any easy answers.


Catholics troubled by the dilemma of their conscience and the teachings & actions of the Church have tough decisions to make. Stay with hypocrisy or leave and risk damnation? I guess there is also whether they believe missing Mass is as great a sin as rape. And whether they believe such teachings.


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Isaiah 64:6 "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags, ..."


Keep on believing. We are all humans, we all have strengths and weaknesses. I for one do not think of myself as a "filthy rag", but if you want to, go right ahead.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You're serious.



Gerslay said:


> On the contrary, its only your opinion that it is not factual. Most serious scholars today consider the Bible to be a reliable historical reference.


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Suit yourself


Perhaps you should go an wash.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Only the parts for which there is independent evidence. The mere fact that the Bible says it - without outside corroboration - is not accepted as evidence by anyone serious.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well put. Thank you.



Cheeky Blighter said:


> http://www.kare11.com/story/news/2014/02/11/testify-catholic-church-sex-abuse-depositions/5410127/ - 50k - Cached - Similar pages
> 4 days ago ... PAUL, Minn. ... Top Catholic Archdiocesan officials ordered to testify.
> 
> http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/tag/archdiocese-of-st-paul-and-minneapolis/ - 92k - Cached - Similar pages
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

SQM said:


> Without filth????????
> 
> What is this - some Revival Tent thinking?
> 
> Our Cheeky is as clean as , as, as .................?


The driven snow? Too cold.

A baby after a bath. There, that sounds like our Cheeky.


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> I do hope that if she runs for President, that her words will be remember and brought up .
> 
> It seems she does not care about other human beings, but only her own wants and wishes.


I your opinion.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Patty. Well put.



BrattyPatty said:


> Maybe so, but there is not one of us who are in the priesthood who have sexually and physically abused children. There are coverups all over this country. The St Paul diocese is beggibg the court not to release the names of those caught in the child abuse nets. All over the country, more and more are getting caught.
> You can't have it both ways. You can't sexually abuse boys and girls and hide behind the albs and the Catholic Church who is actually protecting these perverts. That is why I chose to leave the Catholic Church. I cannot belong to an organization who can do this and think that it is okay.
> It can't get any filthier than that. Find a bible quote for this.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Why ask? If you tell her you don't believe the Bible is true, she will try to convince you by quoting ... um ...THE BIBLE.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> These crimes did not happen 70 years ago. If this were the case there would be only very old people giving evidence before a Royal Commission. It has been going on for a long time though. Have you seen the ages of the victims who are coming forward to give evidence? Their lives were ruined and they still carry the scars. Yes I do personally know men who were abused.
> 
> As for children being afraid of the church, what about the Brisbane girl who was raped by her teacher at a Catholic school in 2007? Her teacher has been jailed. Not a priest but a teacher at a Catholic school, and she was not the only one.
> 
> ...


The most salient fact is that celibacy was introduced to insure that all of a priest's property would go to the Church, not family. Self-serving, I think.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> Do you print them out first, Huck, or just grip the monitor?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That's Huck all right.



SQM said:


> I like Huck. She seems bright and not afraid to speak her mind.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> No idea--but I know that someday you, KPG, will be greeted by Satan with a hearty handshake and a slap on the back.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Monica wasn't Bill's only victim...there were dozens of them going back to his college days and Hillary knew about every one of them and turned a blind eye to it all.
> 
> So much for a liberated woman!


Gennifer Flowers and another one will have to look up her name she lived in Cabot. Paula Jones .Saw her in her car bill bought her , she was shopping at Michael's about 20 something years ago. Gennifer lived in the apartments near the governors mansion. When you come to our slumber party I will take you there so you can see.


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Do you have a name of another 1st century historian? What did he write about the life of Jesus?
> 
> If they do not believe that Josephus is reliable, they must have someone else they can quote.
> 
> PBS, not exactly conservative or Christian, provided my information.


The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus

Flavius Josephus was a Jewish historian. He wrote around the end of the first century AD, and his two most significant works were the 'Jewish War' and the 'Antiquities of the Jews'.

Josephus was born around 37 AD, and became a Pharisee. He then joined the zealots who rebelled against Roman rule between 66 and 74AD, becoming a leader of their forces in Galilee, and living through the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. He was captured by the Romans, and would have been executed, but he went over to them.

Josephus became the Roman emperor's adviser on Jewish affairs, and died in about 98 AD. 'Josephus' was his Jewish name, and he took the name 'Flavius' in honour of the family of his imperial sponsor. His 'Jewish War' was largely based on his first-hand experiences. It focuses on the period AD 66 to 73. 'Antiquities of the Jews' covers the whole of history up to AD 66. Out of twenty books, six cover the period from the reign of Herod the Great to AD 66 - i.e. the period when Jesus lived.

In his writings, Josephus mentions the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the Herodians. He mentions Caiaphas, Pontius Pilate, John the Baptist, Jesus (twice) and James the brother of Jesus. He also mentions the Essenes - the strict religious sect within Judaism that founded the Qumran community, where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found. In fact, Josephus says that he spent some time with the Essenes. This is how he describes it (Cited by Carsten Peter Thiede in 'The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Jewish origins of Christianity.'):
When I was about sixteen, I wanted to gain first-hand experience of our different movements. There are three: first, the Pharisees, second the Sadducees, and third the Essenes - as I have noted frequently. I thought I would be able to choose the best, by learning about all these schools. Thus I steeled myself for the task and studied the three courses with some effort.

In book 18 of the Antiquities, 63-64, the text of Josephus as we have it today says:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is lawful to call him a man, for he was a performer of wonderful deeds, a teacher of such men as are happy to accept the truth. He won over many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the leading men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again on the third day, as the prophets of God had foretold these and ten thousand other wonders about him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day.'

In fact, this text is a bit too much of a good thing for our purposes. It seems unlikely that a Jew such as Josephus would have written some of the things in this passage. Most scholars today agree that it has been altered by early Christians seeking to 'improve' it. It seems more likely that Josephus originally wrote something like this:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, for he was a performer of wonderful deeds, a teacher of such men as are happy to accept the truth. He won over many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the leading men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him at the first did not forsake him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day.'

Even without the questionable additions, notice what this passage tells us about Jesus:

He was a real historical person
He was a teacher
He was a worker of wonders (miracles)
He gathered a band of followers, who continued to follow him after his death.

However, there is a second reference to Jesus in the works of Josephus. In Antiquities 20.200, he describes how, in AD 62, the high priest Ananus was deposed because he had illegally
convened the Sanhedrin [the highest Jewish religious court / governing body]. He had brought before them the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, who was called James, and some other men, whom he accused of having broken the law, and handed them over to be stoned.

Notice the following points from this quotation from Josephus:

Jesus had a brother called James
James was executed by the Jewish leaders in AD 62
There were claims that Jesus was the Messiah (that is, the Christ).

There is one other important point to notice from this quotation. Most scholars do not doubt the authenticity of this second reference to Jesus. Yet this passage refers to Jesus as the 'so-called Christ'. This brief comment appears to link back to Josephus' earlier reference to Jesus, and may even show that what he originally wrote there included some such comment as 'Jesus the so-called Christ.' Several of the books listed include some discussion of these passages from Josephus.

Back to 'Written sources outside the Bible'
© 2014 Focus, 54 The Avenue, Southampton SO17 1XQ, United Kingdom


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> How sad! You do not know of what you speak!


She knows about or more than you do.


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Thanks very interesting. Seem what i thought she was is what she really was and more.
> Not a good track record is it.


She also believes the Clintons had her husband murdered. Trustworthy? Who knows? RWN


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Monica wasn't Bill's only victim...there were dozens of them going back to his college days and Hillary knew about every one of them and turned a blind eye to it all.
> 
> So much for a liberated woman!


Victim? Hardly, she was 22 not a child.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Context. What a difference in meaning it makes. I look forward to comments. Thanks for posting this Patty.



BrattyPatty said:


> Here is everything that she said. This is from Reuter's.
> Note to conservative readers: The FBI is investigating who was behind the attack.
> 
> That is the point Hillary Rodham Clinton was making when she said, Was it because of a protest or was it because of guys out for a walk one night who decided that theyd go kill some Americans? What difference at this point does it make?
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Public Service Announcement

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For the record, if you identify any of these traits, stop immediately and ignore:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Notice a mild statement that quickly becomes vicious. 

Someone twists details to appear knowledgeable.

Goes from truth to lie to truth to lie burying the lies. 

Mentions 'confused', 'nasty', or 'vicious. 

Never retracts a statement, and never ever apologizes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Failure to ignore will leave you biting your nails trying to refute the post. Don't bother. Been there.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> The reason I worry about her is because you are her grandmother. You base your hatred of the Catholic Church that happened over 70 years ago. You fill your granddaughter's mind of apprehension and fear over men that have dedicated their lives to be of service to God and His children.
> 
> If celibacy was the reason for the abuse, then are you concluding that Jesus and his apostles were child molesters because they were celibate? The reason for the vow of celibacy is to live like Jesus and the apostles lived; dedicating their entire lives for others. If celibacy is the problem then why aren't the Sisters of the Catholic Church not child molesters? If celibacy is the problem why are not Buddhist monks child molesters?


How dare you say you worry about my granddaughter because I am her grandmother. You are a disgusting and vile person and those are the nice words I can think to call you. 
What are you talking about over 70 Years ago? It may have started over 70 years ago, but are you sure it has stopped now? I'm not. I said I worry about my granddaughter, I didn't say I said anything to her, she is 5 years old. How in the hell would you know anything about the men in the church she attends? Anyone who puts their child in complete trust of an individual, "because they have dedicated their lives to be of service to god" is not very smart. I know there are lots of catholic parents in the world today that wish they hadn't been so trusting, and lots of kids who wish their parents hadn't been so trusting. 
I didn't say celibacy was the reason for the abuse. I said, in my opinion, I felt, that it draws the pedifiles to the church. They know they will have a ready supply of young boys. Pedifiles are drawn to places where there are kids. I never said every priest was a pedifile. You need to learn how to read without inserting all your own garbage into what I said.

You asked: If celibacy is the problem why are not Buddhist monks child molesters? Good question. Why is it a problem with Catholic priests and not Buddhist monks? What is it about Catholics that makes them Pedifiles? Remember, you asked the question.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> Why did the Germans not stop the Holocaust?
> 
> The child abuse has been acknowledged, people have been punished and a vow not to let it happen again. With your Hillary mentality, it happened so long ago, what difference does it make?


You are off your rocker. Now you bring Hillary into it. Only problem is, it didn't happen that long ago. I'll bet after the first ones were stopped they vowed never to do it again and they were moved someplace else only to do it again. Ask all the children who were molested what difference it makes.


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## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Do you print them out first, Huck, or just grip the monitor?


Cooke, you are so funny. I really needed that laugh after reading what LTL writes. Thanks


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm very sorry that lovethelake has treated you so abysmally.



NJG said:


> How dare you say you worry about my granddaughter because I am her grandmother. You are a disgusting and vile person and those are the nice words I can think to call you.
> What are you talking about over 70 Years ago? It may have started over 70 years ago, but are you sure it has stopped now? I'm not. I said I worry about my granddaughter, I didn't say I said anything to her, she is 5 years old. How in the hell would you know anything about the men in the church she attends? Anyone who puts their child in complete trust of an individual, "because they have dedicated their lives to be of service to god" is not very smart. I know there are lots of catholic parents in the world today that wish they hadn't been so trusting, and lots of kids who wish their parents hadn't been so trusting.
> I didn't say celibacy was the reason for the abuse. I said, in my opinion, I felt, that it draws the pedifiles to the church. They know they will have a ready supply of young boys. Pedifiles are drawn to places where there are kids. I never said every priest was a pedifile. You need to learn how to read without inserting all your own garbage into what I said.
> 
> You asked: If celibacy is the problem why are not Buddhist monks child molesters? Good question. Why is it a problem with Catholic priests and not Buddhist monks? What is it about Catholics that makes them Pedifiles? Remember, you asked the question.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> On the contrary, its only your opinion that it is not factual. Most serious scholars today consider the Bible to be a reliable historical reference.


Plato is also a reliable historical reference, yet it does not make his writings of Atlantis a historical fact.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

NJG - try not to get too upset. Remember this is all virtual and people say all kinds of stupid stuff hiding behind an avatar. 

Your concerns are legit and I would question any religion that harbors pedophiles. And I am an ordained interfaith minister. Most religions go off the rails. As do a lot of the old bags here.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Jospehus Description of Jesus
> 
> _Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works-a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was (the) Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day._
> 
> ...


There have been several writers who reference Atlantis, yet it does not make it fact. Without evidence (like the actual continent or the writings AT THE TIME from a source like the roman guards or Pilate himself to Rome, then it is not fact)


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Oral tradition, literature and some proven facts comprise the bible. I sort of see the stories as best sellers of their time that were preserved. Beyond that, not much. But if it makes people have an easier time coping, then great. But if the bible is used to scare and create contention among other religions than it is a problem.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Why ask? If you tell her you don't believe the Bible is true, she will try to convince you by quoting ... um ...THE BIBLE.


Yeah I think they forgot the part of their evangelism training where they went through all the historical facts that happen to be referenced in the Bible. And not the ones that were only more references to a story like Josephus and such. You know, like the finding of cities in archeological digs that they believe now to be the cities of Sodom and Gomorah. Of course even that doesn't prove other stories to be true. The archeological evidence only proves that the place existed, not that it was destroyed by hellfire. (I was taught some in the evangelistic course I took Evangelism Explosion, but we were taught it was easier to wear them down with Biblical quotes)

Ps. My use of the word story is not meant to be offensive. I refer to things in my own religion as "stories" and not as fact. I separate the fact parts from the stories. And stories can turn out to be true (with hard evidence). I include this disclaimer because I remember the look of horror my sister gave me (she was attending a more fundamentalist leaning church at the time) when I revered to a story from the Bible.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sounds reasonable to me.



SQM said:


> Oral tradition, literature and some proven facts comprise the bible. I sort of see the stories as best sellers of their time that were preserved. Beyond that, not much. But if it makes people have an easier time coping, then great. But if the bible is used to scare and create contention among other religions than it is a problem.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I can't condone the pedophilia and ensuing cover-up discovered in the Catholic church and don't even want to try...but the issue of how Catholics should deal with it isn't nearly as cut and dried as it might appear.
> 
> Baptists, Methodists, and Congregationalists can stop going to church and remain in God's good graces as long as they keep His message in their hearts. A Catholic with full knowledge cannot. It's a mortal sin (translation: a one-way ticket to Hell if He so chooses) to skip Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, and to not partake in the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession in oldspeak) and receive Communion at least once a year.
> 
> The current scandal is so far reaching that it can't be dealt with by simply switching parishes--and dropping out completely could, as I said, get a good Catholic dropped-kicked straight into the fiery depths. It's a terrible dilemma and I don't think there are any easy answers.


Now let me start by saying that I believe we all have free agency and that some chose to stay, some to leave. However I guess my question to you (respectfully) would be: if the Pope told you to jump of a bridge would you? I'm not being nasty, I'm just referencing a question most have heard as kids.

Now my in laws stayed in the Catholic church, so don't get the impression I'm judging, I'm honestly curious. At what point should a catholic leave if the church has been corrupted? And do you think that god would hold you in more judgement if you stayed in a church that was knowingly corrupt? Let me say, I think the catholic church has tried to start correcting the problem and I happen to love pope Francis and agree with most of what he says(he has said one thing that was rather offensive to many). Would he make exceptions for you not attending sacraments and such if his church had become corrupt and not in line with his teachings? I'm honestly curious from your perspective.

My husband had a high school job for the church and it turned out that priest was removed from that position because he had molested. My in laws asked my husband if he had any issues with the priest, like inappropriate touching, but luckily it was no. But they didn't tell the congregation what happened to the priest. So some congregants could have well thought that they had removed him from the church and turned him over to authorities. A lot of prosecuted child abuse cases are sealed to protect the victims, so if the priest disappeared they could have honestly thought it was a sealed case because the church would not speak of the priest again.

Now my grandmother also had a friend whose son was actually molested. She went to the church and was bought off (so I was told, but of course this is hearsay) not to peruse further charges. It was a sad case because this whole situation messed up the child so badly that from that time on he had issues, not present before. Later in life he ended up in prison because those issues just got worse. I believe the mother ended up leaving the church eventually. But unfortunately the damage had been done. It makes me wonder how many other people the church has made settlements with.

No church is devoid of child abusers. I remember my mother and father refusing to let my brother go on a camp out with his Sunday school class because my father was working and they would not send him alone. We had only recently joined the church so that trust was not there and they didn't know the people well. I have heard of several other cases in Protestant churches, often it is youth leaders or pastors themselves. But I think the difference is that in the Protestant churches often there is not that world wide organization that will ship them off to another church, maybe in another country (some do have world wide organizations but I haven't heard of the hiding). This is an issue I think because the catholic church does have that ability and it wouldnt be regarded as "strange" to suddenly change a priest to another country. I think all churches need to just admit fault when it arises in priests or policies and move forward. After all the Christian church does admit fault in all people, and the need for Jesus. This would be a perfect opportunity to show the world that they recognize they arent perfect but are when found out they try to do what Jesus would do and then do better.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> See, you have done it again. You cannot make a comment unless you are attacking someone. You are saying I am confused, and from you that is a very mild comment.
> 
> Your remarks are not relevant to the discussion, they are simply bible bashing and calling people who do not agree with you horrible names. You believe you are the only person with the correct view. This is why I told you to shut up. I am sick and tired of your constant rants and raves. If you have something interesting to say, then please say it, but I just want you to stop quoting parts of the bible at others. The bible is not the only book held in esteem by religious people of the world.


EveMCooke, I think there may be a little language issue. Here in the US "Bible bashing" refers to those who doubt the Bible and speak I'll of it. They way you have used it above I think you may mean "hitting people over the head with the Bible" in the US. I could be wrong in what you mean, but I just wanted to put it out there in case you mean the latter and people come after you for a language difference thing.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> That's OK; I can wait until you are rested enough to respond.


Well, thank you for your understanding and waiting so patiently.



> lkholcomb wrote:
> I never will change? Wrong. I have changed my convictions as I grow, because beliefs always change is one is to grow.
> 
> >>>>>>>WRONG. One strengthens their understanding and beliefs as they age. They don't "change" them particularly when they are correct. Your statement is ridiculous.
> ...


I shall use your math example to demonstrate my point. As a small child you learn that the number 16 is 16 pieces put together. As you grow older you change that concept to include that 8+8=16. As you get older you change the concept again to include that 4+4+4+4=16. Even older you change your "facts" to include that 20-4=16. Older still you again change to include that 8x2=16, then you change again your concept of 16 to include that 32 divided by 2 equals 16. So as you grow you change your "convictions" that there is only one way to get to the right answer. Just as with religion. Some stay with the belief that only one religion will make you happy and fulfilled (8+8=16). Some expand their minds to realize that, while they believe their religion right, that another religion, like both Protestant and catholic, can leave the believers feeling happy and fulfilled (20-4=16). Some expand their horizons to include more religions, and while they still believe their religion right, other religions can also leave their believers happy and fulfilled (2x8=16). So the answer (being happy and fulfilled in their life and certain of their outcome after death) does not change, the ways to achieve it do.

In my example of a child not learning to walk, I will further explain (as it is different than what you attempted to demonstrate with math). As a baby you don't walk. You kick your legs, and that is fine and actually will build muscles. As you grow older and your body weight gets larger, kicking is not adequate. You need to move to achieve goals, instead of relying on others. Then you learn to crawl. However again after a while you realize that you are still needing to have other reach for things up high because you can't reach them. So then you learn to stand and walk. Then you learn how to climb to reach those things. If you stay at crawling and you never learn to stand or walk the legs muscles will atrophy and shrink (it can be mitigated somewhat with physiotherapy, but not completely, medically speaking, but we are not including that in this example). So while others are reaching for things and learning to climb you are staying down and instead of growing are actually losing muscle.

It is the same with spiritual growth. As a child you blindly accept what you are taught (not walking or crawling, but kicking legs) As you grow older you begin to question. along the lines of, "how did Noah fit all those animals on the boat, and how did he have dinasours and not get eaten?" (crawling, but trying to stand and walk) In some religious groups (mostly Christian in my experience and the experience of many of my friends, in real life as well as online) when those questions are asked you are told not to question the Bible. It is the perfect, inerrant word of God and how dare you question! So then after a few questions the children (or adult converts) stop questioning. They may think those questions but never dare to ask them. (not walking or trying to). Then after a bit longer of being preached at and told not to question the "inspired words of God, perfect in every way", you being to stop even thinking of those questions. You just sit and listen to what you are given. (leg muscles shrinking).

Many Biblical scholars who are Christians themselves will question the Bible and discuss it with others and interpret it themselves.(these folks are walking) They don't sit and wait for it to be given to them, nor do they change their opinion of the interpretation automatically because they are told they are wrong, without any further discussion only a statement that they are wrong.

And that is what I mean in changing and growing. As you grow older your brains capabilities to understand and interpret yourself expands. If you do not use it you will lose it, as is shown by those in any group where active thinking, questioning, and interpretation is discouraged.



> Lkholcomb wrote:
> ... their is no evidence to show how smart he (God) would be, the Bible was written by men therefore are no gods direct words.
> 
> >>>>>> I thought you said you were not smarter than God prior; so now that you are older, why don't you change your convictions and believe the Truth? I.E. The Bible is the direct words of God. Another point; if you are not smarter than God, how do you know the Bible isn't the direct words of God?


Yes, I do change. But what truth is it that you are talking about? And can you have an active discussion of the actual interpretation, in context, of those things that show this said truth? So far I have not seen that happen, only more Bible verses, often out of context, being quoted, but no discussion if the interpretation.

I also never said I was not smarter than god. If you refer to the full post (quoted at the bottom) I said that I never said I was smarter than god. There is a difference. I stated I did not say it as there is no way currently to know how smart god is, as his Bible was written, not by him, but men.

How do I know the Bible isn't the direct words of the Christian god? Well let's see:

It wasn't written by god himself but by men.

It wasn't documented at the time but many years after Jesus' death was supposed to happen.

The Bible has many interpretations, some of which have pretty big differences, and there have been shown examples of errors made in the printing of the Bible (the 1611 "naughty bibles" of King James).

The Bible was never written as one book it wasn't until the Niacene council (probably spelled Niacene wrong) that the bible was one book and in that council they excluded many books, and the decision was made entirely of men (didn't see Jesus mention as sitting on the council).

I'm sure there are more if I think about it more (actually I know there are more) but these are some of the most glaring.



> Lkholcomb wrote:
> Therefore when Adam and Eve sinned, he was the one who set the "penalty" of sin. He was the one who required Jesus' death. He could just as easily have required another payment, but he chose to require death. If he is almighty and can stop Satan and other evils than he is the one responsible for all evil.
> 
> >>>>>> WRONG. God chose everyone's death as the only way to enter His eternal Kingdom. God gave everyone, that means you free will. It, therefore, is only you who can choose to do evil, listen to Satan rather than God, and determine your final eternity. You choose evil (during or after your earthly life); so it's on you, so I suggest you choose wisely.


Well I'm glad we agree * God chose * the way. He chose and could just as easily have chosen another way. A way that didn't involve death or didn't involve the death of his son,ect. If he is all powerful he could have made the requirement to get into "His eternal Kingdom" be showing up at the pearly gates with a bouquet of flowers! And you have no idea if I choose evil or good, you don't know me so you have no idea what I do or don't do.



> Lkholcomb wrote:
> It is just as a parent who stands to the side and lets their child throw a stone at and break a window. The parent is responsible because the parent saw and could have stopped the child.
> 
> >>>>> WRONG. The child is responsible for the action (the child's will got the job done). The parent, the FATHER (God), is only responsible to raise the child in the way the child should go so the child will not depart from it. The Father, (God) is responsible to teach and nuture the child and allow the consequences of the child's actions to settle the child's debt.


Oh my I do believe you are unaware of parental responsibility statutes and the charge of accessory to a crime. You may want to read up on that.

In any case god does not "raise up a child in the way he should go" that mandate was given to earthly parents. The Christian God is invisible and is to be taken in faith, just as the Bible has said.



> Lkholcomb wrote:
> So yes, god does condemn people to hell because he has the power to set a different penalty or just forgive. So no, I don't think that the Christian god is kind and loving. No kind and loving person would sentence their "children" to endless suffering for mistakes or misbehavior.
> 
> >>>>>WRONG. Each person condemns himself to Hell for not believing in the Father, the Son, and The Holy Ghost and for not accepting Him (the Trinity) and not seeking forgiveness of his sins and not following Him.


I explained this above so will not explain again.



> Lkholcomb wrote:
> Lastly, how do you know what I think or believe? I do apologize if you actually are a mind reader, but if you are you really need to hone your skills because you were way off base with your interpretation of my thoughts.
> 
> >>>>> She knows what you think and believe because you have told us and just did again in this post of yours.
> ...


So then, what do I believe? Please tell me, because I have never described my religion or any god or traditions I follow on here. Please describe what I believe, and not what I don't believe. Since I have apparently posted it on here and have forgotten, please post a link to that post so I can refresh my memory.

I have not told Christians what they believe. I have told of my experience in the Christian fundamentalist churches and what I was actively taught, as well as a bit perhaps of what I have been told by others also raised in the fundamentalist environment. If I am wrong, can you please show me with your words and actions, because frankly by and large on here the fundamentalists and other Christians (with the except of a few, I am not painting all Christians as this way) have shown me exactly what I was shown growing up. Those types of Christians apparently forgot the whole, "they will know you by your fruit". My mother lives by this and she would be aghast that Christians would behave in this manner.

For reference and context this is my full post:



> I never will change? Wrong. I have changed my convictions as I grow, because beliefs always change is one is to grow. Those who don't change in some way are stunted in their growth, just as a child who does not start walking is stunted in a way in their growth.
> 
> First off, what "them" are you talking about in your statement "you don't need them because you are smarter than He is"? God in Christianity is a trinity, yet there is one god in that faith, not multiple. I have not once stated I am "smarter" than he is. I have no basis for making a statement like that as their is no evidence to show how smart he would be, the Bible was written by men therefore are no gods direct words.
> 
> ...


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> These crimes did not happen 70 years ago. If this were the case there would be only very old people giving evidence before a Royal Commission. It has been going on for a long time though. Have you seen the ages of the victims who are coming forward to give evidence? Their lives were ruined and they still carry the scars. Yes I do personally know men who were abused.
> 
> As for children being afraid of the church, what about the Brisbane girl who was raped by her teacher at a Catholic school in 2007? Her teacher has been jailed. Not a priest but a teacher at a Catholic school, and she was not the only one.
> 
> ...


What do you care? It is not your Church so why do you meddle in the issue of celibacy? You don't like it, you left, you continue to fear monger and taint your grandchildren's minds. Your life is complete.

The molesters are and have been charged, it is out in the open, amends have been made to help the victims heal. What else can be done? I know that the Church's hierarchy handled this totally wrong. Though I believe they did not know how to handle it correctly because they did not understand it and truly could not believe that it was happening. Since no one talked about it, they all thought it theirs was an isolated issue. But it did, and they paid the consequences, unfortunately years too late and young children's lives and childhoods were ruined. But I am glad that it came out in the open, so we as a Church can talk about what happened, how it was handled, and learn from it so that no other child has to be harmed.

You can continue on your campaign to trash talk the Catholic Church, that is your choice. And it probably makes you feel superior in some sick way because one of the largest opponents to abortion has been taken down a notch. But you forget or ignore all the Church does for communities. You ignore Catholic Charities, non profit Catholic Hospitals, clergy that have dedicated their lives to hospice care and teaching...... How would some communities survive if the Church packed up and left them because they did not have Catholic donors to support them because of all the condemnation of their Church? You want to bring down the Church by demonizing Her, your choice. But just be careful, bringing Her down will destroy many other people's lives.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

rocky1991 said:


> The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus
> 
> Flavius Josephus was a Jewish historian. He wrote around the end of the first century AD, and his two most significant works were the 'Jewish War' and the 'Antiquities of the Jews'.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this information, especially interesting was the part that seems to have been changed by early Christians.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

damemary said:


> I'm very sorry that lovethelake has treated you so abysmally.


I too am sorry that you have been treated to horrendously NJG. :-(


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

SQM said:


> Oral tradition, literature and some proven facts comprise the bible. I sort of see the stories as best sellers of their time that were preserved. Beyond that, not much. But if it makes people have an easier time coping, then great. But if the bible is used to scare and create contention among other religions than it is a problem.


The Bible also has some good moral stories in there too. I have told them to my kids and we have discussed them. I always feel sad when people only allow one interpretation because there can be so many good points or morals to the story from some of these stories. Not all, you can't really get a good point to the story from stoning a rape victim who was raped in the city but didn't scream loud enough.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Sheesh! So glad they finally went to bed.
Now to open the windows and air out the place!


THIS IS THE DAY THAT THE LORD HAS MADE,
I SHALL REJOICE AND BE GLAD IN IT.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Gennifer Flowers and another one will have to look up her name she lived in Cabot. Paula Jones .Saw her in her car bill bought her , she was shopping at Michael's about 20 something years ago. Gennifer lived in the apartments near the governors mansion. When you come to our slumber party I will take you there so you can see.


Count me in, I love slumber parties. They used to be beer and pizza, but the last one I went to was wine and sushi. Times sure have changed! LOL


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> What do you care? It is not your Church so why do you meddle in the issue of celibacy? You don't like it, you left, you continue to fear monger and taint your grandchildren's minds. Your life is complete.
> 
> The molesters are and have been charged, it is out in the open, amends have been made to help the victims heal. What else can be done? I know that the Church's hierarchy handled this totally wrong. Though I believe they did not know how to handle it correctly because they did not understand it and truly could not believe that it was happening. Since no one talked about it, they all thought it theirs was an isolated issue. But it did, and they paid the consequences, unfortunately years too late and young children's lives and childhoods were ruined. But I am glad that it came out in the open, so we as a Church can talk about what happened, how it was handled, and learn from it so that no other child has to be harmed.
> 
> You can continue on your campaign to trash talk the Catholic Church, that is your choice. And it probably makes you feel superior in some sick way because one of the largest opponents to abortion has been taken down a notch. But you forget or ignore all the Churcmh does for communities. You ignore Catholic Charities, non profit Catholic Hospitals, clergy that have dedicated their lives to hospice care and teaching...... How would some communities survive if the Church packed up and left them because they did not have Catholic donors to support them because of all the condemnation of their Church? You want to bring down the Church by demonizing Her, your choice. But just be careful, bringing Her down will destroy many other people's lives.


I think you have the wrong person here. My granddaughters are 32, 30 and 27 years old, graduated from University so I am not fear mongering and tainting their lives. I have never discussed the catholic church with them. I believe you have mistaken me for another poster who posted she was afraid of her grandchildren attending a catholic school. My granddaughters did attend a catholic primary school. My two grandsons are LDS.

I do not have a campaign to trash talk the catholic church. But I doknow of the abuse that went on and I personally know some of the victims.

I will speak of my experience at catholic schools but I do not trash talk them.

Plese check and see who did post that they were afraid of their grandchildren attending a catholic church, it was not me.

Please check the first poster on page 49, this is the poster who feared for their granddaughter, not me.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Lkholcomb said:


> EveMCooke, I think there may be a little language issue. Here in the US "Bible bashing" refers to those who doubt the Bible and speak I'll of it. They way you have used it above I think you may mean "hitting people over the head with the Bible" in the US. I could be wrong in what you mean, but I just wanted to put it out there in case you mean the latter and people come after you for a language difference thing.


It is a language thing. I posted earlier the Australian definition of a Bible basher. To Aussies a Bible basher is someone who brow beats someone else with quotes from the Bible. We see it as being hit over the head or bashed with the bible.

Father Bob Maguire.
Have you heard of the Melbourne catholic priese, Father Bob Maguire . I will check the correct spelling. He is on youtube and is well worth watching. A true, no nonsence Aussie. He broadcasts on radio and tv over here, often in conjunction with John Safran.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Sheesh! So glad they finally went to bed.
> Now to open the windows and air out the place!
> 
> THIS IS THE DAY THAT THE LORD HAS MADE,
> I SHALL REJOICE AND BE GLAD IN IT.


Yes, it may also blow some sense into your befuddled minds. Bring you out of the dark age of ignorance into the sunlight of knowledge and information.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Eve for taking time to address the issues.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes, it may also blow some sense into your befuddled minds. Bring you out of the dark age of ignorance into the sunlight of knowledge and information.


Mock all you want.

Jesus confidently told all the thousands who heard Him speak the Sermon on the Mount - that Heaven and Earth would pass away before any word of His Bible failed.

That means you'll be gone and I'll be gone but His word will abide forever!


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes, it may also blow some sense into your befuddled minds. Bring you out of the dark age of ignorance into the sunlight of knowledge and information.


EveMCooke
befuddled minds sure fits well. Wonder if it is a matter of age or has been a lifelong condition. I bet it is the latter.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Mock all you want.
> 
> Jesus confidently told all the thousands who heard Him speak the Sermon on the Mount - that Heaven and Earth would pass away before any word of His Bible failed.
> 
> That means you'll be gone and I'll be gone but His word will abide forever!


Gerslay
just another Fairy Tale. Oh yes, his words have been used and abused and what is stated as his words today resembles nothing he ever said. I am more than sure of that.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> Now let me start by saying that I believe we all have free agency and that some chose to stay, some to leave. However I guess my question to you (respectfully) would be: if the Pope told you to jump of a bridge would you? I'm not being nasty, I'm just referencing a question most have heard as kids.
> 
> Now my in laws stayed in the Catholic church, so don't get the impression I'm judging, I'm honestly curious. At what point should a catholic leave if the church has been corrupted? And do you think that god would hold you in more judgement if you stayed in a church that was knowingly corrupt? Let me say, I think the catholic church has tried to start correcting the problem and I happen to love pope Francis and agree with most of what he says(he has said one thing that was rather offensive to many). Would he make exceptions for you not attending sacraments and such if his church had become corrupt and not in line with his teachings? I'm honestly curious from your perspective.
> 
> ...


Lots of thoughtful questions, Lkholcolm...no, of course I'm not offended by them.

Let me begin by stating for the record that I certainly don't believe that non-Catholics have damned themselves (the old "no salvation outside the Church" notion). My brother is, for all intents and purposes, a Buddhist, and the serenity and peace of mind he demonstrates shows clearly that that's the right path for him. My husband's version of a Higher Power involves Atlantis and little green men from outer space--I certainly don't understand that one, but again I have no problem with it. Organized religion clearly isn't for everyone, and I think what matters most what lies in our hearts and how we choose to treat others.

Nor can I condemn Catholics who have left the Church in the wake of this awful scandal. The pedophilia and ensuing cover up have rattled folks to the core --their dismay and horror is all too real, and I understand perfectly that they genuinely and truly find it impossible to carry on as if nothing had happened. In fact, they'd be wrong to stay if their hearts are telling them that it's wrong--nothing is worse than kowtowing to blind obedience, habit, or fear of what other people might say.

It seems to me that the closer people have gotten to the eye of the hurricane the more strongly they've reacted. My son hasn't been molested nor anyone that I've known personally, but Sister and her husband have had to deal with the fact that one of the priests in a parish they occasionally visit has been taken away. Sis's reaction has been stark horror and genuine fear for her boys. I'm not sure if she still celebrates Mass, but I know she's stopped contributing financially and refuses to participate in Church-sponsored activities. Her husband, on the other hand, literally bristles when the subject is mentioned. He won't discuss it except to belittle those among the congregation who have chosen to leave. Like LTL he feels they're "bailing", taking the easy way out and leaving everyone else to carry the load.

So there's a happily married devout Catholic couple split right down the middle on the issue. Sis's sons also are divided--both have attended parochial schools all their lives, but Son #2 is far more pious (the kind of kid who talks of and really might become a priest some day). Like his father he doesn't like to discuss it, but he seems to hold a strong conviction that this is just a passing storm and it's up to God and/or the Vatican to steer the ship.

In my own household there's also a line. I'm upset and dismayed but still celebrating Mass--my husband (who was raised Serbian Orthodox) is outraged and points the finger of blame at a religion that won't allow priests to marry and have a family. We've have a lot of furious arguments about it and my son's religious education has been suspended--he's twelve now and hasn't yet been Confirmed. That bothers me, but the fact that I won't stand up to my husband and insist that we follow through on this Sacrament makes me think that I'm not sure in my own mind if I wish to proceed. I feel that I'm in a holding pattern--waiting to see what Pope Francis (who I like immensely) says and does, waiting to see if the hierarchy begins to take American Catholics and our issues and our concerns more seriously....waiting, waiting, waiting for Godot I suppose.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Mock all you want.
> 
> Jesus confidently told all the thousands who heard Him speak the Sermon on the Mount - that Heaven and Earth would pass away before any word of His Bible failed.
> 
> ...


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Gerslay
> just another Fairy Tale. Oh yes, his words have been used and abused and what is stated as his words today resembles nothing he ever said. I am more than sure of that.


Why were you there?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Gerslay said:


> Mock all you want.
> 
> Jesus confidently told all the thousands who heard Him speak the Sermon on the Mount - that Heaven and Earth would pass away before any word of His Bible failed.
> 
> That means you'll be gone and I'll be gone but His word will abide forever!


Nice sentiment but are you aware of the throngs of gods that have come and gone?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Why were you there?


Obviously not--were you?


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> Nice sentiment but are you aware of the throngs of gods that have come and gone?


You are right! But not the Mighty Great God Jehovah. The Great I Am is still around and always will be. 
Gerslay we are having Bible study. Want to join in?


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Obviously not--were you?


Missy I wasn't talking to you.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Gerslay said:
> 
> 
> > Mock all you want.
> ...


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You are right! But not the Mighty Great God Jehovah. The Great I Am is still around and always will be.
> Gerslay we are having Bible study. Want to join in?


Sure do!


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Why were you there?


I think she was standingin the row behind you, you were there of course.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Why were you there?


I think she was standing in the row behind you, you were there of course.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Mock all you want.
> 
> Jesus confidently told all the thousands who heard Him speak the Sermon on the Mount - that Heaven and Earth would pass away before any word of His Bible failed.
> 
> That means you'll be gone and I'll be gone but His word will abide forever!


yes yes yes. Earthly knowledge, will pass away, and then they will understand how the simple words of Christ have more meaning than ones mind can undserstand.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I think she was standingin the row behind you, you were there of course.


Nope, but He was there at the Cross for me and you.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> yes yes yes. Earthly knowledge, will pass away, and then they will understand how the simple words of Christ have more meaning than ones mind can undserstand.


Agreed


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

At the Cross at the Cross where I first saw the Light the burdens of my heart rolled away. I am singing. Anyone want to join in? It was there by faith I received my sight and now I am happy all the day. I chose JOY


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Missy I wasn't talking to you.


Too bad--that "Were you there" stuff is the silliest thing ever.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

SQM said:


> Nice sentiment but are you aware of the throngs of gods that have come and gone?


yes they have come and gone, but isn't it amazing that 2,000 years have past and the faith in the Bible and in Jesus still is here. Also isn't it amazing that other religions have use the same words from the Bible to add to their faiths??


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

I got the tent set up . Let's have revival. Here is the song.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z36ifo5PYwE


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Robin Mark: South to the North and the South

Read the lyrics and listen to the song here:

http://www.songlyrics.com/robin-mark/shout-to-the-north-lyrics/


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> yes they have come and gone, but isn't it amazing that 2,000 years have past and the faith in the Bible and in Jesus still is here. Also isn't it amazing that other religions have use the same words from the Bible to add to their faiths??


Yes it is amazing.
Our Savior is not in the grave .


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Robin Mark: South to the North and the South
> 
> Read the lyrics and listen to the song here:
> 
> http://www.songlyrics.com/robin-mark/shout-to-the-north-lyrics/


Love that song.! Good choice!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

AAAAAmen!


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Another good one by Hill Song. Maybe Eve can go see them.They are from Australia.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz8P96myUZk


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> You are right! But not the Mighty Great God Jehovah. The Great I Am is still around and always will be.
> Gerslay we are having Bible study. Want to join in?


That's what they all said. All civilizations perish along with their gods. And since the one you mentioned is an invisible sky god, it will certainly be lost quite easily.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Yes it is amazing.
> Our Savior is not in the grave .


Actually since he was Jewish, he is still where he was and waiting for the Messiah.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Ok I got Ron singing right now. Come on the tent is felling up!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xiVjYO8utM


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Another good one by Hill Song. Maybe Eve can go see them.They are from Australia.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz8P96myUZk


Very nice...thanks!


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> Actually since he was Jewish, he is still where he was and waiting for the Messiah.


But He was also the SON of God the Savior of the world so He is not. There are Jews that believe. Not all of them are waiting.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Come on girls lets raise the tent with our praises to the Only Living King. There is no one like Jehovah!
What do you know there is a song for that too.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmpmHMn8rMw


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> But He was also the SON of God the Savior of the world so He is not. There are Jews that believe. Not all of them are waiting.


And when He comes again, none of them will wait any longer!


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> And when He comes again, none of them will wait any longer!


144,000 will go after it. Glad I won't be here. Woo hoo!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Are there no kings left in Europe? Is Jehovah the god in the Hebrew Bible? If so he is a Jewish invention also.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

We list our voices with praises to His Name!

God Almighty

The Alpha and The Omega

The Ancient of Days


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

You may want to be very careful with what you post your words may come back to haunt you some day. 

I have seen and heard of to many miracles on this earth that can not be explained by those who think they have such great earthly knowledge.

I have also met people whom others may think because they have had no education that have more knowledge then the ones who think they are better because they think they have.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> Are there no kings left in Europe? Is Jehovah the god in the Hebrew Bible? If so he is a Jewish invention also.


Now who believes in fairy tales? It is not me. or is it I?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> We list our voices with praises to His Name!
> 
> God Almighty
> 
> ...


Got a song for that too!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOe5GpqFJrE
I am on the drums because I got to dance. Who is on the flute?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

God bless all who enter here today that their hearts be filled with the presence of the Lord. (And that includes you, Q)

We pray in the name of Jesus

By the power of the Holy Spirit

To the Glory of God

Amen


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knock yourselves out.



Gerslay said:


> Count me in, I love slumber parties. They used to be beer and pizza, but the last one I went to was wine and sushi. Times sure have changed! LOL


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

damemary said:


> Knock yourselves out.


God bless you too Dame Mary


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for sharing. You have illuminated the damage done by these pediphiles. As in any crime, the coverup sometimes does the most damage.

I had questions of faith before the scandal broke. The Church did me no good so I left.

I think Pope Francis is a good man. He has lived his entire life in humility and helping the poor. I was astonished he was elected Pope by an establishment used to operating in splendor and secrecy. If he succeeds, I'll believe there is a God behind it. I wish him well.



susanmos2000 said:


> Lots of thoughtful questions, Lkholcolm...no, of course I'm not offended by them.
> 
> Let me begin by stating for the record that I certainly don't believe that non-Catholics have damned themselves (the old "no salvation outside the Church" notion). My brother is, for all intents and purposes, a Buddhist, and the serenity and peace of mind he demonstrates shows clearly that that's the right path for him. My husband's version of a Higher Power involves Atlantis and little green men from outer space--I certainly don't understand that one, but again I have no problem with it. Organized religion clearly isn't for everyone, and I think what matters most what lies in our hearts and how we choose to treat others.
> 
> ...


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> God bless all who enter here today that their hearts be filled with the presence of the Lord. (And that includes you, Q)
> 
> We pray in the name of Jesus
> 
> ...


Yes in the Name of Jesus I agree. All praise are for the Father of Lights. All Glory , Honor and Praise be lifted up to You Lord Glod, Son and also to the Holy Spirit. I love You!


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

I pray the power of the Holy Spirit draws everyone reading this. Prayers for eye and ears to be opened in the Name of Jesus to know the Truth. Glory to You Lord!


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> We list our voices with praises to His Name!
> 
> God Almighty
> 
> ...


Great I Am


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I would assume Huck uses her mind to determine the truth of a statement. Wish you could try it sometime.

I wish you well in your convictions. Just remember they are your convictions. Others have theirs. I think we've passed the time here when anyone will change their minds.



Country Bumpkins said:


> Why were you there?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Now who believes in fairy tales? It is not me. or is it I?


"I" But most people say "me" and eventually common usage wins out. "It" is the subject of the sentence so you need the subjective form of the word.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Please avoid disrespectful terms like "Missy." It says more about you than the person you're addressing.



Country Bumpkins said:


> Missy I wasn't talking to you.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Advocate - 1 John 2:1

Almighty - Revelation 1:8

Alpha - Revelation 1:8

Amen - Revelation 3:14

Angel of the Lord - Genesis 16:7

Anointed One - Psalm 2:2

Apostle - Hebrews 3:1

Author and Perfecter of our Faith - Hebrews 12:2

Beginning - Revelation 21:6

Bishop of Souls - 1 Peter 2:25

Branch - Zechariah 3:8

Bread of Life - John 6:35,48

Bridegroom - Matthew 9:15

Carpenter - Mark 6:3

Chief Shepherd - 1 Peter 5:4

The Christ - Matthew 1:16

Comforter - Jeremiah 8:18

Consolation of Israel - Luke 2:25

Cornerstone - Ephesians 2:20

Dayspring - Luke 1:78

Day Star - 2 Peter 1:19

Deliverer - Romans 11:26

Desire of Nations - Haggai 2:7

Emmanuel - Matthew 1:23

End - Revelation 21:6

Everlasting Father - Isaiah 9:6

Faithful and True Witness - Revelation 3:14

First Fruits - 1 Corinthians 15:23

Foundation - Isaiah 28:16

Fountain - Zechariah 13:1

Friend of Sinners - Matthew 11:19

Gate for the Sheep - John 10:7

Gift of God - 2 Corinthians 9:15

God - John 1:1

Glory of God - Isaiah 60:1

Good Shepherd - John 10:11

Governor - Matthew 2:6

Great Shepherd - Hebrews 13:20

Guide - Psalm 48:14

Head of the Church - Colossians 1:18

High Priest - Hebrews 3:1

Holy One of Israel - Isaiah 41:14

Horn of Salvation - Luke 1:69

I Am - Exodus 3:14

Jehovah - Psalm 83:18

Jesus - Matthew 1:21

King of Israel - Matthew 27:42

King of Kings - 1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 19:16

Lamb of God - John 1:29

Last Adam - 1 Corinthians 15:45

Life - John 11:25

Light of the World - John 8:12; John 9:5

Lion of the Tribe of Judah - Revelation 5:5

Lord of Lords - 1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 19:16

Master - Matthew 23:8

Mediator - 1 Timothy 2:5

Messiah - John 1:41

Mighty God - Isaiah 9:6

Morning Star - Revelation 22:16

Nazarene - Matthew 2:23

Omega - Revelation 1:8

Passover Lamb - 1 Corinthians 5:7

Physician - Matthew 9:12

Potentate - 1 Timothy 6:15

Priest - Hebrews 4:15

Prince of Peace - Isaiah 9:6

Prophet - Acts 3:22

Propitiation - I John 2:2

Purifier - Malachi 3:3

Rabbi - John 1:49

Ransom - 1 Timothy 2:6

Redeemer - Isaiah 41:14

Refiner - Malachi 3:2

Refuge - Isaiah 25:4

Resurrection - John 11:25

Righteousness - Jeremiah 23:6

Rock - Deuteronomy 32:4

Root of David - Revelation 22:16

Rose of Sharon - Song of Solomon 2:1

Ruler of God's Creation - Revelation 3:14

Sacrifice - Ephesians 5:2

Savior - 2 Samuel 22:47; Luke 1:47

Second Adam - 1 Corinthians 15:47

Seed of Abraham - Galatians 3:16

Seed of David - 2 Timothy 2:8

Seed of the Woman - Genesis 3:15

Servant - Isaiah 42:1

Shepherd - 1 Peter 2:25

Shiloh - Genesis 49:10

Son of David - Matthew 15:22

Son of God - Luke 1:35

Son of Man - Matthew 18:11

Son of Mary - Mark 6:3

Son of the Most High - Luke 1:32

Stone - Isaiah 28:16

Sun of Righteousness - Malachi 4:2

Teacher - Matthew 26:18

Truth - John 14:6

Way - John 14:6

Wonderful Counselor - Isaiah 9:6

Word - John 1:1

Vine - John 15:1


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

damemary said:


> Please avoid disrespectful terms like "Missy." It says more about you than the person you're addressing.


We are having revival Suzi! Come on with us!


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

SQM said:


> "I" But most people say "me" and eventually common usage wins out. "It" is the subject of the sentence so you need the subjective form of the word.


Thanks


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Egyptian civilization and their gods flourished for 8,000+ years. They are still worshiped in some degree. What does this tell CB etc? I know. Nothing. It's something for the rest of us to consider. (There are other examples.)



SQM said:


> That's what they all said. All civilizations perish along with their gods. And since the one you mentioned is an invisible sky god, it will certainly be lost quite easily.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

damemary said:


> Please avoid disrespectful terms like "Missy." It says more about you than the person you're addressing.


I call my daughter and gd missy. Terms of endearment in the South.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No thank you.



Country Bumpkins said:


> We are having revival Suzi! Come on with us!


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Eve, I just wanted to say I'm with you on the Bible-bashing question. It's perfectly good English (and Australian).


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

We sing praises to His Name....

Oh Lord,

Praises to His Name!


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

SQM said:


> Actually since he was Jewish, he is still where he was and waiting for the Messiah.


I wouldn't expect any of these fundamentalists to acknowledge that he was not the messiah. He was born a Jew and died a Jew. It's only the meshuganas who believe otherwise. Let them live a world of fear and ignorance. It is the way the church wants then. Ignorant and unquestioning. Keep giving money to the church and keep the children in line to keep the church functioning. Education is probably the worst thing that could happen to these fundamentalists. Broadening one's horizon, meeting people of other groups will cause more damage to the church than anything we could say to the holy rollers. All we get from them is scripture, Ad Nauseum. I was just reading the posts and felt as though I had arrived in a church. I know it makes them feel superior, but that is only in their minds. Have at it. Whatever makes you happy.


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> But He was also the SON of God the Savior of the world so He is not. There are Jews that believe. Not all of them are waiting.


What father asks for the sacrifice of his son? Even Abraham who was willing to sacrifice his son, was stopped by god because he actually did not want a sacrifice. No religion should be based on a sacrifice.


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> And when He comes again, none of them will wait any longer!


Oops he's not coming back. We are still waiting for the TRUE Messiah.


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Now who believes in fairy tales? It is not me. or is it I?


Yes it is you.


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Just another one of those absolutes!


Absolutes, maybe death and taxes.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Bible thumping, yes ..but not bible bashing. In the US, its entirely as I state it here. Just for clarification.


The good thing is that this is an international website, we get to be exposed to so much from around the world. Isn't that great?


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'm very sorry that lovethelake has treated you so abysmally.


Thanks, I should know to expect it by now, but then she really outdoes herself and is really nasty and comments on my granddaughter. She just continues to step over the line with no regard for anyone, let alone a child.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> NJG - try not to get too upset. Remember this is all virtual and people say all kinds of stupid stuff hiding behind an avatar.
> 
> Your concerns are legit and I would question any religion that harbors pedophiles. And I am an ordained interfaith minister. Most religions go off the rails. As do a lot of the old bags here.


Thanks, yes some say more stupid stuff than most, guess LTL fits that category.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> I too am sorry that you have been treated to horrendously NJG. :-(


Thanks, she definitely has a nasty streak.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

NJG said:


> Thanks, yes some say more stupid stuff than most, guess LTL fits that category.


She certainly is more vicious than most.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

rocky1991 said:


> What father asks for the sacrifice of his son? Even Abraham who was willing to sacrifice his son, was stopped by god because he actually did not want a sacrifice. No religion should be based on a sacrifice.


You can say that again.

And I imagine you will, as you've said it umpteen times before!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> The good thing is that this is an international website, we get to be exposed to so much from around the world. Isn't that great?


Yes, it is a good thing...but some were not understanding what she meant by bible-basher and it seemed like she'd want to know why.

So be it!


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> We sing praises to His Name....
> 
> Oh Lord,
> 
> Praises to His Name!


Gerlasy
Praises to those who run Soup Kitchens to feed the hungry. He ain't doing diddlysquat.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

NJG said:


> Thanks, I should know to expect it by now, but then she really outdoes herself and is really nasty and comments on my granddaughter. She just continues to step over the line with no regard for anyone, let alone a child.


NJG
Oh Lord forgive her because she not knows how nasty she is.
She is the Empress of Nasty. I guess that is good enough for her.


----------



## NJG (Dec 2, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> NJG
> Oh Lord forgive her because she not knows how nasty she is.
> She is the Empress of Nasty. I guess that is good enough for her.


Maybe that is her goal, to be the most nasty she can be, but I believe she does know how nasty she is and enjoys it.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

NJG said:


> Maybe that is her goal, to be the most nasty she can be, but I believe she does know how nasty she is and enjoys it.


NJG
well I think you are right. Some folks just want some "fame" and do not care how they get it.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> Gerlasy
> Praises to those who run Soup Kitchens to feed the hungry. He ain't doing diddlysquat.


Singing your own praises Huckleberry?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> Singing your own praises Huckleberry?


Promoting false modesty, so low?

We should praise God and not the folks who actually do the heavy lifting?


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Do you have a name of another 1st century historian? What did he write about the life of Jesus?
> 
> If they do not believe that Josephus is reliable, they must have someone else they can quote.
> 
> PBS, not exactly conservative or Christian, provided my information.


I am in the midst of packing to take dh to the hospital for surgery. I'll be away from home and a computer till Saturday(only till then, I hope) I will look up a few references for you.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> maysmom
> may we inform knitpresentgifts that there are more than 300 official Religions? It should keep her busy investigating all of them.


Sounds like a plan.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

maysmom said:


> I am in the midst of packing to take dh to the hospital for surgery. I'll be away from home and a computer till Saturday(only till then, I hope) I will look up a few references for you.


Good luck, May. Please keep us posted.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

damemary said:


> Thanks for sharing. You have illuminated the damage done by these pediphiles. As in any crime, the coverup sometimes does the most damage.
> 
> I had questions of faith before the scandal broke. The Church did me no good so I left.
> 
> I think Pope Francis is a good man. He has lived his entire life in humility and helping the poor. I was astonished he was elected Pope by an establishment used to operating in splendor and secrecy. If he succeeds, I'll believe there is a God behind it. I wish him well.


Well you do always work on the premise that it is all about you.

Your comment about who elected Pope Francis pope is ridiculous. Think about the last 2 popes. Was Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict from extravagant wealth? Did they sit in the Vatican all day soaking in wealth and splendor? Pope Francis was also one part of 'the establishment', so was he used to splendor and glory too?

God is always in charge and guide the Cardinals to pick the pope.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> NJG
> Oh Lord forgive her because she not knows how nasty she is.
> She is the Empress of Nasty. I guess that is good enough for her.


Nope, not nasty, just telling the truths and facts. When one has discussions based on feelings, they are not discussing facts, just emotions. Wonder if you would be doing all this Catholic Church bashing if JFK were president today?


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Nope, not nasty, just telling the truths and facts. When one has discussions based on feelings, they are not discussing facts, just emotions. Wonder if you would be doing all this Catholic Church bashing if JFK were president today?


What does the President's religion have to do with anything?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

maysmom said:


> I am in the midst of packing to take dh to the hospital for surgery. I'll be away from home and a computer till Saturday(only till then, I hope) I will look up a few references for you.


Best of luck, maysmom. I pray all goes well.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Nope, not nasty, just telling the truths and facts. When one has discussions based on feelings, they are not discussing facts, just emotions. Wonder if you would be doing all this Catholic Church bashing if JFK were president today?


Who knows we might find out that JFK was raped by a priest and felt he needed to prove his manhood and that was why HE couldn't keep it in his pants.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Missy I wasn't talking to you.


Sorry CB, but when you post on an open forum you are talking to everyone and inviting responses.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

maysmom said:


> I am in the midst of packing to take dh to the hospital for surgery. I'll be away from home and a computer till Saturday(only till then, I hope) I will look up a few references for you.


Best wishes for a successful surgery for your DH!


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

LTL said God is always in charge and guide the Cardinals to pick the pope."

Well then you would think God could get it through the Cardinal's heads and it wouldn't take days of votes to get elected as it has done in the past.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> LTL said God is always in charge and guide the Cardinals to pick the pope."
> 
> Well then you would think God could get it through the Cardinal's heads and it wouldn't take days of votes to get elected as it has done in the past.


They must spend days listening to the devil first. which is probably why they have handled the whole sexual abuse scandal so badly.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> No go, Joey. I assume you sited this passage as proof that Hell is inhabited by at least one man. Fortunately Catholics have a more enlightened view of whether the Bible is to be taken literally.
> 
> This From AmericanCatholic.org:
> 
> ...


Many fundamentalist Protestants refer to the Catholic church as the "whore of Babylon."


----------



## Jokim (Nov 22, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> We should praise God and not the folks who actually do the heavy lifting?


The folks who do the heavy lifting wouldn't have the strength to do the work if God didn't give them the endurance first. All gifts and goodness come from God. Praised be the name of God!


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> We sing praises to His Name....
> 
> Oh Lord,
> 
> Praises to His Name!


For His Name is Great and greatly to be praised!


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

maysmom said:


> I am in the midst of packing to take dh to the hospital for surgery. I'll be away from home and a computer till Saturday(only till then, I hope) I will look up a few references for you.


I pray that your dh will be well during and after his surgery. Also for you to be comforted and not worry.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

A big "thank you" to all the ladies wishing us good luck. Just about packed, now comes the fun part: Picking a knitting project that doesn't need close row-by-row and stitch-by-stitch attention. I was bad and read the stuff I had put aside to take for this "vacation." Probably won't be many magazines in any of the waiting rooms, right??!! Blessed be!


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

rocky1991 said:


> What father asks for the sacrifice of his son? Even Abraham who was willing to sacrifice his son, was stopped by god because he actually did not want a sacrifice. No religion should be based on a sacrifice.


Sorry I missed this:
There are Jews that believe
If they believe, they are not Jews, they are Christians.


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Of course he was a Jew, that was why he was crucified. the Jews did not like that Jesus claimed to be the Messiah, the Son of God. It happened according to God's plan. The scripture of prophecy in the Old Testament was fulfilled in the birth, death, and rising from the dead of Jesus Christ.


Yeah sure.


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> You can say that again.
> 
> And I imagine you will, as you've said it umpteen times before!


That's my first time. Must have me confused with someone else.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

rocky1991 said:


> Yeah sure.


That seems to be another pick and choose thing. 
That was according to God's plan. 
If I believe with enough faith, that snake bite won't kill me, until it does.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> It is a language thing. I posted earlier the Australian definition of a Bible basher. To Aussies a Bible basher is someone who brow beats someone else with quotes from the Bible. We see it as being hit over the head or bashed with the bible.
> 
> Father Bob Maguire.
> Have you heard of the Melbourne catholic priese, Father Bob Maguire . I will check the correct spelling. He is on youtube and is well worth watching. A true, no nonsence Aussie. He broadcasts on radio and tv over here, often in conjunction with John Safran.


I personally think your definition of bible basher fits better, but that's just me ;-) . I'll have to look for Father Bob Maguire, I haven't heard of him before.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

maysmom said:


> A big "thank you" to all the ladies wishing us good luck. Just about packed, now comes the fun part: Picking a knitting project that doesn't need close row-by-row and stitch-by-stitch attention. I was bad and read the stuff I had put aside to take for this "vacation." Probably won't be many magazines in any of the waiting rooms, right??!! Blessed be!


Just out of bed this am and catching up. I will be thinking of you and hope everything is fine. Sending healing vibes through the collective consciousness, as they say, or is it collective unconsciousness.

As for your reading material, have you thought about a kindle or an ebook. Small, compact but can hold so many books. In the USA you can also download newspapers. Best of all you can adjust the font and line spacing. I have a cover that has an in built light so I can read it anywhere without disturbing others.

Heres hoping DH has a speedy recovery and you are not stressed.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Just out of bed this am and catching up. I will be thinking of you and hope everything is fine. Sending healing vibes through the collective consciousness, as they say, or is it collective unconsciousness.
> 
> As for your reading material, have you thought about a kindle or an ebook. Small, compact but can hold so many books. In the USA you can also download newspapers. Best of all you can adjust the font and line spacing. I have a cover that has an in built light so I can read it anywhere without disturbing others.
> 
> Heres hoping DH has a speedy recovery and you are not stressed.


Or just a quick run into the library, after all, you aren't really going to think about what you are reading...


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Lkholcomb said:


> I personally think your definition of bible basher fits better, but that's just me ;-) . I'll have to look for Father Bob Maguire, I haven't heard of him before.


Father Bob is a real larrikin. He was forced to retire from the priesthood when he turned 75, the powers to be said he was too old. He did not go quietly but kicked and screamed all the way. They have not silenced him. He will say "Think, use your brain. That is what it is there for. Do not quote scriptures at me but tell me what you think they mean." When he teams up with John Safran they are worth watching. I think I might be tempted to go to church if he was the parish priest and gave the sermon.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Lots of thoughtful questions, Lkholcolm...no, of course I'm not offended by them.
> 
> Let me begin by stating for the record that I certainly don't believe that non-Catholics have damned themselves (the old "no salvation outside the Church" notion). My brother is, for all intents and purposes, a Buddhist, and the serenity and peace of mind he demonstrates shows clearly that that's the right path for him. My husband's version of a Higher Power involves Atlantis and little green men from outer space--I certainly don't understand that one, but again I have no problem with it. Organized religion clearly isn't for everyone, and I think what matters most what lies in our hearts and how we choose to treat others.
> 
> ...


Our family also is split by religiously, so I understand your feelings about your son. When we married my husband was catholic and I was Protestant. That has changed. My husband while following some catholic beliefs belongs to an excommunicated catholic church that accepts anybody regardless of religion. My mother in law (who lives with us) was catholic when we married but now goes to a Protestant church (she was raised Protestant). My husband and I decided long ago that we would not raise our kids "in" any one religion. The kids have gone to different churches, they have explored different beliefs, but their choice in their religion is theirs. I saw too many people grow up and trained strictly in a religion to then not have a full and deep understanding of that religion or to be half heart about it all. I have said around our house that I beliefs religion should be "sought" not "taught". So even though my husband was catholic when we married my son, when he was born, was never christened nor was he ever dedicated in a Protestant church. Religion is an adult decision to be made when a person can fully understand their decision (a 4 years old can't even fully understand death developmentally at that age, which is why so many can't understand why the person at the wake isn't asleep).

So maybe instead of only questioning your beliefs (because you sound pretty sure of them for yourself in your posts) you are just not comfortable making that decision for your son? I'm not saying, of course, that is true, just putting it out there as a possible unconscious reasoning.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Missy I wasn't talking to you.


Excuse me, but perhaps you weren't aware this is a public post, therefore anyone may respond. Perhaps you want to make sure you are in a private message with the person you want to reply instead of in a public posts where anybody can see and reply. I'm sure that mistake can happen to anyone.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Just out of bed this am and catching up. I will be thinking of you and hope everything is fine. Sending healing vibes through the collective consciousness, as they say, or is it collective unconsciousness.
> 
> As for your reading material, have you thought about a kindle or an ebook. Small, compact but can hold so many books. In the USA you can also download newspapers. Best of all you can adjust the font and line spacing. I have a cover that has an in built light so I can read it anywhere without disturbing others.
> 
> Heres hoping DH has a speedy recovery and you are not stressed.


THanks! DD has a Kindle, but I'm a bit technically and financially behind right now(I really want an I Pad.) She does love hers; she resisted getting one for quite awhile and now wonders why. I'm downloading a baby cardigan pattern, very basic, from SweaterWizard. Thick yarn, size 10 needles, raglan. Maybe it'll be done by Friday! Till then, take care and everyone, stay safe--


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

SQM said:


> That's what they all said. All civilizations perish along with their gods. And since the one you mentioned is an invisible sky god, it will certainly be lost quite easily.


And there are a few old gods that are still worshiped today. There is a group of old world witches (I can't remember the name) that was familial if I remember that dates way back (not the modern Wiccans). And Druids still exist to this day and worship the same old gods that they did when Rome invaded pre-Christ. They may not be as many, as they were driven into secrecy, but they still exist. A long time ago, when I was looking into many different religion from Christianity to really obscure ones I remember coming across this.

And there is still one strong religion with many people that most devinately pre-dates the Christian god. That religion would be the Jewish religion who, based on their learned scholars (and for pretty solid reasons that had once been explained to me regarding prophecies) reject Jesus as The Christ spoken if in the Torah.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

damemary said:


> Egyptian civilization and their gods flourished for 8,000+ years. They are still worshiped in some degree. What does this tell CB etc? I know. Nothing. It's something for the rest of us to consider. (There are other examples.)


Don't forget, one of those gods also rose from the dead (those gods were arounds pre-Jesus), as did many others. It is a common theme in many ancient religions.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

rocky1991 said:


> Oops he's not coming back. We are still waiting for the TRUE Messiah.


Years ago I had it explained to me from a Jewish person why you all are still waiting for the true Messiah. I found it very, very interesting and had to admit that I agreed more with you all that the true Messiah had not come according to prophecies (I never converted to the Jewish faith or anything I just find different religions fascinating when you study them with an open mind.)


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Janet Cooke said:


> The good thing is that this is an international website, we get to be exposed to so much from around the world. Isn't that great?


 :thumbup:


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

maysmom said:


> I am in the midst of packing to take dh to the hospital for surgery. I'll be away from home and a computer till Saturday(only till then, I hope) I will look up a few references for you.


Hope the surgery goes well for your husband and that you both are back home and heal fast!


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

maysmom said:


> Many fundamentalist Protestants refer to the Catholic church as the "whore of Babylon."


I had forgotten that one lol!


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

rocky1991 said:


> Sorry I missed this:
> There are Jews that believe
> If they believe, they are not Jews, they are Christians.


Don't they call themselves Messianic Jews? I remember some of these folks coming for a presentation at the church one week.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> Don't they call themselves Messianic Jews? I remember some of these folks coming for a presentation at the church one week.


Yes


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Lkholcomb said:


> Don't they call themselves Messianic Jews? I remember some of these folks coming for a presentation at the church one week.


Oh yes, I have had some interesting conversations with people about what they consider defections. 
I can imagine why, we know how converts to any new belief system can be, it must be rather unpleasant for their family members.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

rocky1991 said:


> That's my first time. Must have me confused with someone else.


You could be right...the language was almost identical, I assumed it was you.

Sorry!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I was hoping the revival had quieted down by now. Oh well.



Gerslay said:


> We sing praises to His Name....
> 
> Oh Lord,
> 
> Praises to His Name!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

damemary said:


> I was hoping the revival had quieted down by now. Oh well.


How's that top down sweater coming for you DM?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It sure is. Glory be.



Janet Cooke said:


> The good thing is that this is an international website, we get to be exposed to so much from around the world. Isn't that great?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's shameful. No respect for anyone including herself.



NJG said:


> Thanks, I should know to expect it by now, but then she really outdoes herself and is really nasty and comments on my granddaughter. She just continues to step over the line with no regard for anyone, let alone a child.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Are you the deja vu all over again expert?



Gerslay said:


> You can say that again.
> 
> And I imagine you will, as you've said it umpteen times before!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> Gerlasy
> Praises to those who run Soup Kitchens to feed the hungry. He ain't doing diddlysquat.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Good thought Huck.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> I was hoping the revival had quieted down by now. Oh well.


damemary
the weaker the Church gets the louder the voices of those still in it.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

damemary said:


> Are you the deja vu all over again expert?


No, Vuja De!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> That seems to be another pick and choose thing.
> That was according to God's plan.
> If I believe with enough faith, that snake bite won't kill me, until it does.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm working at it. Thanks for asking.



Gerslay said:


> How's that top down sweater coming for you DM?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Not Dei? Good one.



Gerslay said:


> No, Vuja De!


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> I was hoping the revival had quieted down by now. Oh well.


Lordy! Someone hand me a saw and lead the way to the tent pole--I've have enough for today.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> A Jew is a nationality just like French or Spanish. They are still God's chosen people, no matter what they believe.


Words fail me--does anyone have an emoticon that depicts a head spinning 360 degrees?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> A Jew is a nationality just like French or Spanish. They are still God's chosen people, no matter what they believe.


The problem with your thinking is that the religion is not being a Jew.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> A Jew is a nationality just like French or Spanish. They are still God's chosen people, no matter what they believe.


Excuse me? A Jew is someone who is Jewish, certainly you must be thinking of Israelis as a nationality? There is no nation named Jew or Jewish or Judaic or anything resembling that.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Excuse me? A Jew is someone who is Jewish, certainly you must be thinking of Israelis as a nationality? There is no nation named Jew or Jewish or Judaic or anything resembling that.


A Jew is an ethnicity, a religion, and a nationality...coming from the tribe of Judah, the southern kingdom.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> A Jew is an ethnicity, a religion, and a nationality...coming from the tribe of Judah, the southern kingdom.


I just looked it up, I stand corrected, my apologies to Joeysomma


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> A Jew is an ethnicity, a religion, and a nationality...coming from the tribe of Judah, the southern kingdom.


Totally wrong.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> I just looked it up, I stand corrected, my apologies to Joeysomma


 :thumbup:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> A Jew is a nationality just like French or Spanish. They are still God's chosen people, no matter what they believe.


I have several Jewish friends who believe Jesus is their Savior; they are Christians.


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> A Jew is an ethnicity, a religion, and a nationality...coming from the tribe of Judah, the southern kingdom.


Hate doing this but: Cut and paste here I am:before reading the Torah on this web site.
Judaism: Race, Religion, or Ethnicity?

Every so often I get this question. Usually, I am asked simply whether Judaism is an ethnicity or a race. One person phrased it to me this way:

I am under the impression that "being Jewish" relates both to ethnicity (as in, someone is born Jewish), as well as a religion (as in, I converted to Judaism and therefore I am a Jew). Which is correct?

What I cannot understand is: who cares? Why do people want to know? Of what relevance is this issue to being Jewish?

The Mesilas Yesharim, a seminal work in Jewish philosophy, has a chapter called "The Obligations of the Human in This World." He does not mention race or ethnicity even once in the entire chapter.

The fact is that as Jews, whether one is descended by maternal lineage from those who stood at Mount Sinai and accepted the Torah from Hashem, or whether one is a proper, full convert, or whether one is maternally descended from a proper, full convert, we are required to fulfill the Commandments of the Torah to the best of our abilities, and thus achieve self-actualization, holiness, and closeness to Hashem.

Words like "ethnicity," "religion," or even "race" are completely irrelevant to our obligations in this life. That's not the path to pursue. What is important is each individual's personal relationship with Hashem, and our relationship with Hashem as a People, as well as our relationships with our communities (roughly in that order).

I would hope that if you read the articles found on my web site, you will begin to have some sort of an understanding of what it means to be Jewish.

Why do so many people ask about race? A Jew could also be someone who converted to Judaism. Proper and true converts to Judaism are accepted as full Jews. Thus, there are Jews who have been Black, Asian, whatever. I know some of them myself. Furthermore, there are many Jews from many backgrounds and many "races," and often they don't look at all like people expect Jews to look (whatever that is). It doesn't make a bit of difference. Race isn't a factor in being Jewish.

And if you go back far enough, we all come from the same Adam and Eve. So "race" is at best an artificial concept.

Aren't there enough race troubles around the world? The counterfeit distinctions of race have led to the extremely dangerous misconception of one "race" being better than another, and this has caused more pain in the world than probably any other failing of humanity. Can't we get past that issue already?

Let's focus on what the Torah tells us to do, and not on irrelevant concepts.

Sooner or later, though, someone is bound to ask, "What about Amalek? Doesn't the Torah command us to kill them out? Isn't that racial? Isn't that commanding us to perform the evil of genocide?"

The answer is no. The Commandment to kill out Amalek is not racially based. In the first place, there have been Amalekite converts to Judaism, as we find in the Bible. In the second place, the Commandment to kill out the nation of Amalek is a Commandment of self-defense. The Amalek nation dedicated themselves to destroying the Nation of Israel (on religious grounds, mind you -- they were militant atheists). Throughout the generations, Amalek has attempted again and again to kill all of us. Haman, during the Babylonian exile, attempted to eradicate all the Jews of the world, and he was given the power and authority by the Persian-Median Emperor (see the Book of Esther). Haman was a descendant of Agog, King of Amalek, and he inherited their national hatred of the Jews.

There are those who argue that the Nazis were the descendants of Amalek. It can certainly be said that they were the "spiritual descendants" (for lack of a better term) of Amalek.

Amalek wanted to destroy the Jews, and all and any knowledge of Hashem in this world. They have tried this time and again. Nevertheless, the Talmud tells us, the grandsons of Haman the Amalekite studied Torah in the Talmudic Academies of Bnei Brak (a city in Israel). They were not killed, they were not ostracized, though they came from Amalek, our ancestral enemy. Jews have never been very good at carrying a grudge.

What about the Commandment not to marry a Gentile? Isn't that racially biased? Again, the answer is no. It seems that way, at first glance, but let's examine what the Torah says about marrying a Gentile.

When Hashem your G-d brings you to the land you are going to inherit, and many nations fall before you: the Hittites, the Gersonites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Prezites, the Chivites, the Jevusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you; Hashem your G-d will hand them over to you, and you will strike at them. You must shun them utterly, you may not sign a treaty with them. You may not marry them. Do not give your daughter to a Gentile's son, and do not take his daughters for your son. For if you do they will remove your sons from worshiping Me, and they will worship other gods. The result will be that Hashem will be angry with you and he will destroy you quickly.... For you are a holy nation [i.e., exclusively] for Hashem. Hashem your G-d chose you from all the nations on the earth, to be His special people. Hashem desired and chose you not because you had greater numbers than all the other nations, for you are the smallest of all the nations. It was because Hashem loves you, and because He kept His promise to your forefathers, that Hashem took you, with a strong hand, and rescued you from slavery, from the clutches of Pharaoh the king of Egypt.

-- Deuteronomy 7:1-8

Read it carefully, as the Torah is meant to be studied. The point I wish to focus on is the verse that says that if we intermarry, our spouse will draw us away from Judaism. This is why marrying a true and proper convert is permitted, in most cases, because the convert is dedicated to Hashem and Judaism, and thus will not try to seduce us away from Judaism. A convert is a Jew. A Gentile, however, i.e., someone not born to a Jewish mother and who has not converted, might draw us away from Judaism.

So race is not an issue at all. We, as Jews, have a purpose to fulfill on this earth. We have obligations. The most optimum environment in which to perform those obligations is within the context of a Jewish marriage. Both spouses must work together to fulfill the purpose of their existence. If one member is not sincerely religious, the other spouse will at best fail to reach his or her potential. Most likely, he or she will find it impossible to fulfill those obligations as necessary.

Judaism teaches that the soul of one person is only half a soul. When a man and woman marry, they form one complete soul. That way, the soul finds its purpose.

What happens when one half is working in another direction? Can you imagine a car on which each of the wheels are trying to travel in different directions? Can you drive a car like that?

Another aspect highlighted in the passage from Deuteronomy I quoted above is the concept of our being the Chosen People. What does that mean, really?

Well, G-d created mankind because G-d wanted to give good to someone. G-d wants to have a relationship with a creature that works hard to achieve good. G-d did not want to give away something for nothing, so G-d created humanity with the ability of free will, and put him in this universe, where he has the opportunity to sin and the opportunity to do good.

But people did not want to do good. G-d offered the Torah to all the nations, and they all refused it. Many individual people among the nations did not refuse -- they are those who get reincarnated so they can get the chance to convert to Judaism. But on the whole, the nations refused the Torah. The Children of Israel wholeheartedly accepted the Torah. So we were given the responsibility of the Torah. We were chosen to become servants to G-d. It may be hard work, but it makes us holy.

But the main point is that anyone can become chosen, by assuming the responsibilities of the Commandments, just as we did. Is this racism? How could it be racism if we allow anyone to join us and become equally chosen? The Nazis did not let anyone become a member of the so-called "master race." One had to be born to it. That was racism. Refusing to hire someone simply because they are dark-skinned is racism.

Saying that we accepted a responsibility and were as a result chosen to fulfill that responsibility, and allowing anyone else to accept the responsibility as well, is not racism. It is easier to become Jewish than it is to join some unions. In Judaism, the entrance requirements are tough, but everyone who is sincere, has no ulterior motive, and commits themselves to the full Torah is allowed in.

Furthermore, the Torah has strict Laws about how to treat a convert. By Law, we are required to love a convert, and if we mistreat a convert (or anyone else who has had a difficult life), it is even worse than mistreating anyone else (which is also a sin, of course).

Furthermore, some of our greatest Rabbis have been converts and children of converts. For example, the great and famous Rabbi Akiva, one of the most pivotal Rabbis in the entire Talmud, was the son of converts. The incomparable Unkelos was himself a convert, and he wrote a translation of the Five Books of Moses that is considered one of the most important commentaries on the Torah ever written. While we have been chosen, so is everyone who is dedicated to Hashem and undertakes to serve Hashem as the Torah instructs. Our being chosen also includes anyone and everyone who chooses Hashem, no matter what nation he or she comes from. And a non-Jew who keeps the Seven Noahide Commandments is also loved and accepted by Hashem, even without the responsibilities of being "chosen."

Judaism teaches a complex way of life, but there is a great tendency to try to adapt from other religions and other belief systems. Where it does not contradict Judaism, there is no problem. Consequently, Jews use computers, and Jews have joined a wide variety of careers. We are not Amish; we are permitted to use electricity. But we are human, and humans enjoy wandering and learning. We are therefore often tempted to adapt foreign modes of thought as well, modes that contradict the teachings of Judaism. Therefore, to some extent we are forced to be exclusive, to live in our own neighborhoods, to do our own thing, so as not to be exposed to that which would offend us or tempt us. Nevertheless, we can cloister ourselves only so much. We have to live in the world. So we spend our formative years in as Jewish an environment as possible, thus granting ourselves as solid a Jewish foundation as we can. This is a strong antidote against the depravity and lax morals that can be found in certain areas of most cities.

So, in short, the answer to the question stated at the beginning of this article is: who cares? But if you really need an answer, it is not racial. Judaism is something we are proud to do, not something we are proud to be. Judaism is our opportunity to attain holiness. What difference does it make if it's a culture, ethnicity, or race? It is completely irrelevant.

If this subject concerns still anyone, I want to demonstrate to you that you really have nothing to be worried about. It has been a long time since I first placed this article of mine on this web site, and I have received only one disagreeing letter about it. When you read the letter, you will see that the people who consider Jews a race and disdain converts are not exactly the highest quality of people. Take a look at what this "human being" wrote me. (I have edited the profanity, as I found it offensive, but I have not touched the letter in any other way.)

With all due respect....Youre full of ****!......We Jews who can claim direct descent (and prove it through dna tests) from ancient Israelites are a well-defined racial group!!! furthermore the U.S. Supreme Court has even recognized us as a racial group,look it up!!! You must be just another dumb convert...who's got not one!!! not one drop of Semite Middle Eastern blood!!! i p*** on free loading gold digging converts like you!!! and you must look like gomer pyle,not as a classical Judean,dumb*ss!!!

Now, obviously, we can't take seriously anyone who writes or talks like that. It stands to reason that a group of people who have had, for over three thousand years, such a high rate of exclusive marriage within the group is going to have a higher tendency of the same DNA. It could very well be that we do. But that's the result, not the reason for marrying within our faith! Our reason is because of the Commandment in the Torah, as I explained above. Furthermore, to hate a convert violates an additional Commandment in the Torah. If I were truly a convert, that writer would be violating both the Commandment of loving fellow Jews, as well as the Commandment not to disdain a convert.

It is evident to me that this person has no interest in the Torah and the Commandments. It's also interesting that he quotes the U.S. Supreme Court, as if that's some sort of convincing Jewish source.

Let me make this clear: Nowhere in the Torah, neither in the Written Torah or the Oral Torah, is there any indication that a Jew with so-called "pure" Jewish blood and DNA is in any way more meritorious than a true convert or the descendant of true converts. There is no such thing. It is not your blood or DNA that matters. It is what you do, and what you believe, not who your parents were. Either type of Jew can achieve the same level in the World to Come, depending on what they do in this world, not who they are.

To stress the point: we do not keep Judaism because we have a racial identity as Jews. If anything, we probably shouldn't have a racial identity. We should have a religious identity. We keep Judaism because Hashem commanded us to. And He commanded us to teach our children to do so as well. And so while being Jewish can be inherited, one can become Jewish as well. Only idiots like that can think that this makes Judaism racist.

If someone reading this disagrees with me, for some reason, I'd welcome a polite letter to that effect, explaining any valid reasons. So far, all I have received on this point is complete drivel.


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I have several Jewish friends who believe Jesus is their Savior; they are Christians.


Therefore................they are no longer Jews.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> A Jew is an ethnicity, a religion, and a nationality...coming from the tribe of Judah, the southern kingdom.


..the old testament, wikipedia, and other sources


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

rocky1991 said:


> Therefore................they are no longer Jews.


Consequently, you are wrong. They remain born a Jew, will die as Jews and as Christians.

That is exactly what they state, not what you believe. They are correct about themselves, you are not.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

imer's Find out more here.
See More About

messianic jewish beliefs
messianic judaism
jews for jesus
jewish holidays

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Messianic Jews accept Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMashiach) as the Messiah yet retain a Jewish lifestyle. After conversion, they continue to observe Jewish holidays, rituals, and customs. Theology tends to vary widely among Messianic Jews.
Messianic Jews' Beliefs

Baptism - Baptism is done by immersion, of people who are old enough to understand and accept Yeshua as Messiah, or Savior.

Bible - Messianic Jews use the Hebrew Bible, the Tanakh, in their services, but also use the New Covenant, or B'rit Hadasha. They believe both are the inerrant, inspired Word of God.

Clergy - A rabbi, which means teacher, is the spiritual leader of a Messianic congregation or synagogue.

Circumcision - Messianic Jews hold that male believers must be circumcised, since it is a part of keeping the Covenant

Communion - The Messianic worship service does not include communion or the Lord's Supper.

Dietary Laws - Some Messianic Jews observe kosher dietary laws, others do not.

Gifts of the Spirit - Many Messianic Jews are charismatic, speaking in tongues. They believe that the Holy Spirit's gift of healing also continues today.

Holidays - Holy days observed include those recognized by Judaism: Passover, Sukkot, Yom Kippur, and Rosh Hashanah.

Jesus Christ - Messianic Jews refer to Jesus by his Hebrew name, Yeshua. They accept him as the Messiah promised in the Old Testament, and believe he died an atoning death for the sins of humanity, was raised from the dead and is alive today.

Sabbath - Like traditional Jews, Messianic Jews observe the Sabbath starting at sundown on Friday until sundown on Saturday.

Sin - Sin is a transgression against the Torah and is cleansed by the shed blood of Yeshua.

Trinity - Messianic Jews vary in their beliefs about the Triune God: Father (HaShem); Son (HaMeshiach); and the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh). Some accept the Trinity while others say God is not (or cannot be) a man (Jesus).
Practices of Messianic Jews

Sacraments - The only sacrament practiced by Messianic Jews is baptism.

Worship Service - The nature of worship differs from congregation to congregation. Prayers may be read from the Tanakh, the Hebrew Bible, in Hebrew or the local language. The service may include songs of praise to God, canting, and spontaneous speaking in tongues.

A Messianic congregation may include Jews who carefully follow Jewish laws, Jews who have a more liberal lifestyle, and Christians who do not follow Jewish laws. Messianic synagogues follow the same design as traditional synagogues. Some Messianic Jews worship at evangelical Christian churches.

Traditional Jews consider Messianic Jews to be Christians. Messianic Jews see themselves as completed Jews, since they have found their Messiah. In Israel, sporadic persecution of Messianic Jews has occurred.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Take my picture right now.



susanmos2000 said:


> Words fail me--does anyone have an emoticon that depicts a head spinning 360 degrees?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Very interesting...thanks CB


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Actually, CB, my friends who are Jewish and also Christians do not consider nor call themselves Messianic Jews.

They do not keep the Jewish traditions (Sabbath, Worship Services, Jewish laws, holidays, etc.)

They are simply Christians, follow and keep the traditions of Christians, believe the entire Bible is the word of God, yet remain as they were born: Jewish (no one can change that anyway).


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

rocky1991 said:


> Hate doing this but: Cut and paste here I am:before reading the Torah on this web site.
> Judaism: Race, Religion, or Ethnicity?
> 
> Every so often I get this question. Usually, I am asked simply whether Judaism is an ethnicity or a race. One person phrased it to me this way:
> ...


Thank you rocky for taking time to clarify. Most interesting.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Actually, CB, my friends who are Jewish and also Christians do not consider nor call themselves Messianic Jews.
> 
> They do not keep the Jewish traditions (Sabbath, Worship Services, Jewish laws, holidays, etc.)
> 
> They are simply Christians, follow and keep the traditions of Christians, believe the entire Bible is the word of God, yet remain as they were born: Jewish (no one can change that anyway).


Well, Hitler certainly would have agreed with you.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

That was nasty!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> That was nasty!


Sorry--but in my mind's eye I can see Sisters with a yellow stars on their habits being jammed into the boxcars. It did happen--"Once a Jew always a Jew" was Hitler's motto.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry--but in my mind's eye I can see Sisters with a yellow stars on their habits being jammed into the boxcars. It did happen--"Once a Jew always a Jew" was Hitler's motto.


We were having a discussion Susan. Everyone was sharing their thoughts. That is not funny! Cruel


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> We were having a discussion Susan. Everyone was sharing their thoughts. That is not funny! Cruel


I agree with you, CB--it's not the least bit funny.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Janet Cooke said:


> Oh yes, I have had some interesting conversations with people about what they consider defections.
> I can imagine why, we know how converts to any new belief system can be, it must be rather unpleasant for their family members.


When they came I remember them talking about how hard it was and some had become cut off from their family because the family didn't convert. It just seems so sad.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry--but in my mind's eye I can see Sisters with a yellow stars on their habits being jammed into the boxcars. It did happen--"Once a Jew always a Jew" was Hitler's motto.


The subject was Messianic Jews.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> We were having a discussion Susan. Everyone was sharing their thoughts. That is not funny! Cruel


You know how "it" is CB. Always cruel, always demeaning other people. Do you except anything different?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> The subject was Messianic Jews.


Yes, and KPG's belief that these folks "remain as they were born: Jewish (no one can change that anyway)." I detect the echo of clacking jackboots beneath those words--perhaps she'd like to clarify?


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Yes, and KPG's belief that these folks "remain as they were born: Jewish (no one can change that anyway)." I detect the echo of clacking jackboots beneath those words--perhaps she'd like to clarify?


Now you've compounded the nasty. You might consider where your mind`s eye is at and what you`ve attuned your ears to hear.


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## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

damemary said:


> Please avoid disrespectful terms like "Missy." It says more about you than the person you're addressing.


Careful Dame - criticizing an innocuous "Missy" while giving the thumbsup to some nasty names and scenarios posted by your friends sounds a lot like hypocrisy -- and we've all read how much your friends hate hypocrisy


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Yes, and KPG's belief that these folks "remain as they were born: Jewish (no one can change that anyway)." I detect the echo of clacking jackboots beneath those words--perhaps she'd like to clarify?


Isn't it odd how it is nasty when you say it, but not when some conservative says it. 
Facts are facts, Hitler and his merry band were not concerned with conversions. Just as neo Nazis today are not. 
It is amazing how these people who supposedly don't know each other from Adam are ready to jump to each other's defense at any given moment. 
For all any of them know, this could be any member of the DPs


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Nice deflection Janet...so typical of you.

Toodle~ooo


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Nice deflection Janet...so typical of you.
> 
> Toodle~ooo


she has gotten quite good at it, in fact a lot better then when she first started on KP.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Yes, and KPG's belief that these folks "remain as they were born: Jewish (no one can change that anyway)." I detect the echo of clacking jackboots beneath those words--perhaps she'd like to clarify?


That is low Susan and I have seen you post some what I thought were low.

You and Janet have step up or is it step down with your words.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Isn't it odd how it is nasty when you say it, but not when some conservative says it.
> Facts are facts, Hitler and his merry band were not concerned with conversions. Just as neo Nazis today are not.
> It is amazing how these people who supposedly don't know each other from Adam are ready to jump to each other's defense at any given moment.
> For all any of them know, this could be any member of the DPs


I admit I was stunned to hear KPG say that converts "remain as they were born: Jewish (no one can change that anyway)." Just when you think you've heard it all....Vile--in the extreme. But how like her to run for the hills while her flunkies protect that precious behind she's now flaunting in her avatar.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I admit I was stunned to hear KPG say that converts "remain as they were born: Jewish (no one can change that anyway)." Just when you think you've heard it all....Vile--in the extreme. But how like her to run for the hills while her flunkies protect that precious behind she's now flaunting in her avatar.


...and here we are, the bad guys. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> ...and here we are, the bad guys. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Yes...a marvelous example of presto-chango, done by a sorceress (or perhaps an out-and-out witch) who managed to dematerialize on the spot.


----------



## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Well, Hitler certainly would have agreed with you.


Trust you to come up with a negative connotation at any opportunity :thumbdown: Why would you disparage someone's pride in their ethnic history?


----------



## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sorry--but in my mind's eye I can see Sisters with a yellow stars on their habits being jammed into the boxcars. It did happen--"Once a Jew always a Jew" was Hitler's motto.


What Hitler did was a horrible crime - not only to the Jewish people, but to all others who were murdered and imprisoned. You applying that logic to people who are proud of their history is disgusting.


----------



## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Yes, and KPG's belief that these folks "remain as they were born: Jewish (no one can change that anyway)." I detect the echo of clacking jackboots beneath those words--perhaps she'd like to clarify?


There is nothing to clarify for anyone without an axe to grind that reads the post. The state of Israel welcomed all Jews to their ancestral homeland. It didn't matter if they were religious (of any faith), agnostic or aetheist


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## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> Isn't it odd how it is nasty when you say it, but not when some conservative says it.
> Facts are facts, Hitler and his merry band were not concerned with conversions. Just as neo Nazis today are not.
> It is amazing how these people who supposedly don't know each other from Adam are ready to jump to each other's defense at any given moment.
> For all any of them know, this could be any member of the DPs


What does Hitler or neo Nazis have to do with ethnicity of the Jewish people, religious Jews, messianic Jews, converted Jews? Bringing Hitler into a discussion of how Jews see themselves is nasty no matter who does it. What happened under Hitler was terrible and using it as a way to try and score points in a totally unrelated discussion is offensive


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

west coast kitty said:


> What Hitler did was a horrible crime - not only to the Jewish people, but to all others who were murdered and imprisoned. You applying that logic to people who are proud of their history is disgusting.


Being proud of one's personal history has nothing to do with someone else proclaiming that Jews "remain as they were born: Jewish (no one can change that anyway)". That's offensive and you know it.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)




----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

west coast kitty said:


> What does Hitler or neo Nazis have to do with ethnicity of the Jewish people, religious Jews, messianic Jews, converted Jews? Bringing Hitler into a discussion of how Jews see themselves is nasty no matter who does it. What happened under Hitler was terrible and using it as a way to try and score points in a totally unrelated discussion is offensive


It's not a question of how Jewish people see themselves--it's a matter of another person (KPG, in this case) claiming that they "remain as they were born".


----------



## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

14¶&#8201;And when Jesus was come into Peters house, he saw his wifes mother laid, and sick of a fever.

15And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.

--Matthew 8:14, 15

It is impossible to have a "wife's mother" if one does not have a wife. So Peter had a wife. So it is a misstatement to say that the Twelve Apostles were celibate. The norm among Jewish men is to be married, so I would have assumed that those among the Apostles who were not still in their teens would have been married.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Lkholcomb said:


> Don't forget, one of those gods also rose from the dead (those gods were arounds pre-Jesus), as did many others. It is a common theme in many ancient religions.


Remember Zoroaster. He is very ancient and shares many similarities with christ, even his birthday. I believe he still has followers.

Buddah predates Christ and Buddhist scholars visited the middle east. There would have been an exchange of ideas. I can see similarites there.

Then there is Hinduism, with a multitude of dieties and The One, The Ultimate. I can not work out which is older judaism or Hinduism. The word devil comes from the word deva, a spirit either good or bad.

I like the Hindu saying 'the religion that is right for you at your present state of development is the religion that is right for you at your present state of development'. You may have to think about this for a moment.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

rocky1991 said:


> Sorry I missed this:
> There are Jews that believe
> If they believe, they are not Jews, they are Christians.


Messianic Jews blend both Judiasm and Christianity. My friend's sister returned to live in Israel but has to keep very quiet about converting to become a Messianic Jew. The authorities there frown on Messianic Jews.


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## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Being proud of one's personal history has nothing to do with someone else proclaiming that Jews "remain as they were born: Jewish (no one can change that anyway)". That's offensive and you know it.


I truly do not understand how you see that statement as offensive. We are close friends with only 1 Jewish family - but I love to read history and have read a lot about the holocaust, biblical history, and the country of Israel. Based on everything I've heard and read, most Jewish people see themselves as having their own identity, regardless of their spiritual beliefs, culture or citizenship.

That is what I read in KPG's post - her friends have converted to Christianity but have retained their Jewish identity. I was honestly shocked that Hitler would come into the conversation, especially in the context of Jews who were proud of that identity even though they had converted to another faith.

Reading your comment gave me the impression that you either don't believe in a unique Jewish identity or if it exists, it is a bad thing with racist undertones. If that's not the case, please let me know how you came to your conclusions.


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

20¶&#8201;And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
-- Luke 17:20, 21
There it is: Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within us.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Here's my question about this thread. "War on Women." Was it started as being for or against the War on Women?

I started reading this as a woman AGAINST the War on Women.



Janet Cooke said:


> ...and here we are, the bad guys. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

WHAT???? Are you talking about KKK and skinheads? Or am I misunderstanding? "Pride in ethnic history????"



west coast kitty said:


> Trust you to come up with a negative connotation at any opportunity :thumbdown: Why would you disparage someone's pride in their ethnic history?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

damemary said:


> WHAT???? Are you talking about KKK and skinheads? Or am I misunderstanding? "Pride in ethnic history????"


You are misunderstanding. The subject is/was Messianic Jews until Susan brought Hitler into it for some nefarious purpose.

And don't think we all didn't notice the purpose...nor yours!


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

west coast kitty said:


> There is nothing to clarify for anyone without an axe to grind that reads the post. The state of Israel welcomed all Jews to their ancestral homeland. It didn't matter if they were religious (of any faith), agnostic or aetheist


I wonder if "it" would have had the guts to stand up and state her hate to Abraham, Jonah, Isaiah, Saul or Jesus himself?

(All men who were born Jewish, loved God, and died a Jew *and* a Christian.)

Nah, she'd be a coward and an spiteful ignoramus back in those days as well and deny _her_ ethnicity to save her own hide regardless of her soul.

I'll admit, I'm surprised many of you still read and respond to her posts and, therefore, are affected by her words. I only know them after reading your posts; so please consider ignoring Susanmos because I don't want to miss what most people have to say! :-D


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

west coast kitty said:


> I truly do not understand how you see that statement as offensive. We are close friends with only 1 Jewish family - but I love to read history and have read a lot about the holocaust, biblical history, and the country of Israel. Based on everything I've heard and read, most Jewish people see themselves as having their own identity, regardless of their spiritual beliefs, culture or citizenship.
> 
> That is what I read in KPG's post - her friends have converted to Christianity but have retained their Jewish identity. I was honestly shocked that Hitler would come into the conversation, especially in the context of Jews who were proud of that identity even though they had converted to another faith.
> 
> Reading your comment gave me the impression that you either don't believe in a unique Jewish identity or if it exists, it is a bad thing with racist undertones. If that's not the case, please let me know how you came to your conclusions.


Exactly correct WCK. If one was born Japanese, and grew up in the Buddhist or Shinto faith as a believer, then became a Christian, that person was born Japanese, and died a Christian and Japanese. No big deal. (They cannot change it anyway!)

Naturally, Satan, on this thread, has no ability to recognize anyone can change their faith and become a Christian of their free will, but no one can change what they were born to be.

Don't be surprised, WCK, that Hilter was brought up by "it" and then the Neo's by Janet. The ultimate and only goal of the core LWNs posting on KP is to accuse everyone of being a racist and bigot as to gender/ethnicity/faith/race.

I don't give a hoot what ethnicity/race someone is. Only racists do. (They who post the hate and cower behind multiple KP identities too.)


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Messianic Jews blend both Judiasm and Christianity. My friend's sister returned to live in Israel but has to keep very quiet about converting to become a Messianic Jew. The authorities there frown on Messianic Jews.


I'll say again, my Jewish friends are Christians and *not* Messianic Jews if that is what you are inferring.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

This is the real WAR ON WOMEN:

North Korea forces women to undergo ABORTIONS and young mothers to DROWN THEIR NEWBORN BABIES, and has starved and executed hundreds of thousands of detainees at secret prison camps  atrocities that the chairman of a U.N. panel that documented the abuses compares to those of NAZI GERMANY.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/17/un-warns-north-koreas-kim-jong-un-strongly-worded-/

Let's make the right comparisons!


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> A Jew is a nationality just like French or Spanish. They are still God's chosen people, no matter what they believe.


Took a break from the topic and decided I missed the daily dose of whatever. I agree with deja vu (ala Yogi) all over again.

Judaism is not a nationality. It is a religion. There are French Jews, British Jews, Ethiopian Jews, American Jews, Brazilian Jews, etc. Israelis are a nationality and most of them are Jews. But not all Israelis are Jews. There are Muslim Israelis also. And Jews mainly believe what they have believed for 5774 years. They believe the same basic tenets Jesus believed.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I have several Jewish friends who believe Jesus is their Savior; they are Christians.


Maybe they were born to Jewish parents, but once they accept a different religion they cannot call themselves Jews. Jews believe in one and only one G-d. Not a trinity, not a diversity such as the Norse or the Republican Romans believed in. One and only one.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

west coast kitty said:


> What Hitler did was a horrible crime - not only to the Jewish people, but to all others who were murdered and imprisoned. You applying that logic to people who are proud of their history is disgusting.


Blah Blah Blah

Go find something you actually like that someone said and comment about that. 
I note that you don't support KPG's statement you just go on the attack against someone you oppose politically.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Blah Blah Blah
> 
> Go find something you actually like that someone said and comment about that.
> I note that you don't support KPG's statement you just go on the attack against someone you oppose politically.


Speak for yourself Janet. You need to go find something you actually like instead of your usual "blah blah blah hahahaha" attack.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Yes, and KPG's belief that these folks "remain as they were born: Jewish (no one can change that anyway)." I detect the echo of clacking jackboots beneath those words--perhaps she'd like to clarify?


You continue to show your evil side. What does your comment imply? That KPG is anti-Semitic?

News flash: If you are born in Italy and parents are Italian, you can wear contacts to change your eye color, you can dye your hair, you could have a sex change, you could have your bones broken and stretched to make you taller, you can eat a ton of carrots and change your skin color,.............but guess what, you are still Italian


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I wonder if "it" would have had the guts to stand up and state her hate to Abraham, Jonah, Isaiah, Saul or Jesus himself?
> 
> (All men who were born Jewish, loved God, and died a Jew *and* a Christian.)
> 
> ...


Speak of misinformation, madame, you display a plethora of it. Abraham, Jonah, Saul, to iterate some of the names you cite, came long before Jesus entered the scene. There was no such thing as a Christian. There were the Jews, people who accepted Hashem's offer to follow his commandments, and "other nations". The Hebrew (or perhaps Aramaic) term for "other nations" is *****. The term ***** thus means non Jews. People who leave the path of following Hashem's commandments no longer observe the faith known as Judaism, so they are no longer Jews. They have made themselves *****. They may think they are Jews, but they are really not, no matter what they say.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Exactly correct WCK. If one was born Japanese, and grew up in the Buddhist or Shinto faith as a believer, then became a Christian, that person was born Japanese, and died a Christian and Japanese. No big deal. (They cannot change it anyway!)
> 
> Naturally, Satan, on this thread, has no ability to recognize anyone can change their faith and become a Christian of their free will, but no one can change what they were born to be.
> 
> ...


You really are something, KPG. Are you now claiming that "Jewish" is a _race_?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Speak of misinformation, madame, you display a plethora of it. Abraham, Jonah, Saul, to iterate some of the names you cite, came long before Jesus entered the scene. There was no such thing as a Christian. There were the Jews, people who accepted Hashem's offer to follow his commandments, and "other nations". The Hebrew (or perhaps Aramaic) term for "other nations" is *****. The term ***** thus means non Jews. People who leave the path of following Hashem's commandments no longer observe the faith known as Judaism, so they are no longer Jews. They have made themselves *****. They may think they are Jews, but they are really not, no matter what they say.


I know from many discussions that this is the belief of many who follow Judaism. 
I don't understand the logic, but, then what logic is there in faith?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> You really are something, KPG. Are you now claiming that "Jewish" is a _race_?


I do think that the conservatives are playing the "race card".


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

damemary said:


> Here's my question about this thread. "War on Women." Was it started as being for or against the War on Women?
> 
> I started reading this as a woman AGAINST the War on Women.


I believe, Empress, that the initial post was on put up as an argument that there is no war on women which is why it quickly devolved into the pro-choice anti-choice argument because there have been thousands and thousands of state laws passed so recently to restrict access, to attempt to force state sanctioned rape of women prior to abortion... those fun little trans-vaginal probes. 
And then there are the federal attempts to cut back on women's rights under the US Constitution.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> I believe, Empress, that the initial post was on put up as an argument that there is no war on women which is why it quickly devolved into the pro-choice anti-choice argument because there have been thousands and thousands of state laws passed so recently to restrict access, to attempt to force state sanctioned rape of women prior to abortion... those fun little trans-vaginal probes.
> And then there are the federal attempts to cut back on women's rights under the US Constitution.


The war on women is between a woman and her child...the battleground is the womb...the victim is the innocent party.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> I do think that the conservatives are playing the "race card".


They're playing something, Janet--and it certainly isn't a nice quiet game of bridge. I'd like to chalk up their claims that the Jewish people constitute a race/ethnicity/nationality to some backward and muddle-headed thinking, but their shrill defensiveness indeed makes me suspect that something else is going on here.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> They're playing something, Janet--and it certainly isn't a nice quiet game of bridge. I'd like to chalk up their claims that the Jewish people constitute a race/ethnicity/nationality to some backward and muddle-headed thinking, but their shrill defensiveness indeed makes me suspect that something else is going on here.


There is a long list of "goings on", all of them self serving and selfish.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Maybe they were born to Jewish parents, but once they accept a different religion they cannot call themselves Jews. Jews believe in one and only one G-d. Not a trinity, not a diversity such as the Norse or the Republican Romans believed in. One and only one.


So you can call them what you want but they cannot claim themselves Jews?

You're nuts.

They are Jews, believe in one and only one God, their Saviour, as I do PERIOD.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Speak for yourself Janet. You need to go find something you actually like instead of your usual "blah blah blah hahahaha" attack.


 :thumbup:


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> You continue to show your evil side. What does your comment imply? That KPG is anti-Semitic?
> 
> News flash: If you are born in Italy and parents are Italian, you can wear contacts to change your eye color, you can dye your hair, you could have a sex change, you could have your bones broken and stretched to make you taller, you can eat a ton of carrots and change your skin color,.............but guess what, you are still Italian


 :XD: You simplified my comment to dumb it down to her level, but "it" still won't "get" it. It will find evil in carrots!


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

lovethelake said:


> You continue to show your evil side. What does your comment imply? That KPG is anti-Semitic?


I don't want to believe that of anyone--which is why I asked KPG to clarify what she meant. I hoped she'd reconsider, but instead she made things worse by using "Jewish" as an ethnic and racial label.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Speak of misinformation, madame, you display a plethora of it. Abraham, Jonah, Saul, to iterate some of the names you cite, came long before Jesus entered the scene. There was no such thing as a Christian. There were the Jews, people who accepted Hashem's offer to follow his commandments, and "other nations". The Hebrew (or perhaps Aramaic) term for "other nations" is *****. The term ***** thus means non Jews. People who leave the path of following Hashem's commandments no longer observe the faith known as Judaism, so they are no longer Jews. They have made themselves *****. They may think they are Jews, but they are really not, no matter what they say.


Well, because I listed Jesus last in the series of names, my comment was inaccurate later when including Jesus as a Christian. Other than that, I stand by what I said. All the men I listed loved God and were followers of Christ and were Jews - therefore, what you say is meaningless. BTW: I know when they lived and don't need you to tell me what I already know.

Learn about how Abraham's son, a Jew, Ishmael, and mistress mom, Hagar, created a new nation as God commanded.

Go try and attempt to tell some other person what you believe because I have no interest in your beliefs and lies.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> So you can call them what you want but they cannot claim themselves Jews?
> 
> You're nuts.
> 
> They are Jews, believe in one and only one God, their Saviour, as I do PERIOD.


They *can* call themselves anything they want. Just as you *can* call yourself a Christian. 
I can call myself the Queen of Sweden. That doesn't make it so.

Fact is, nobody really cares what they call themselves. They believe what they believe and it is nobody's business. 
People are people. Those who transform themselves are ostracized by some and not by others. 
That is one of the major problems with religion. It doesn't focus on what is important. God gets left out in bickering over who is called what by those who need to prove to people who don't care that they are super worshipers.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'll say again, my Jewish friends are Christians and *not* Messianic Jews if that is what you are inferring.


I am not inferring anything, I do not know your friends. How did this become a statement that I made was inferring something about your friends. But you made the assumption that I was talking about your friends. I commented on my friend's sister who returned to live in Israel and is a Messianic Jew. She does not consider herself a Christian, she considers herself a Jew, a Messianic Jew. She observes Jewish feast days, fasting days and dietary restrictions. She has always said she considers Jesus Christ to be the Messiah, and considers herself a Messianic Jew. But you have posted that your friends were not Messianic Jews but Christians, which implies you know about whom I was speaking. I was not aware that my friend's sister, her husband and two daughters were your friends. You therefore must also know my friend.

Interesting to learn that my friend's sister and her family are your friends.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Well, because I listed Jesus last in the series of names, my comment was inaccurate later when including Jesus as a Christian. Other than that, I stand by what I said. All the men loved God and were followers of Christ and were Jews - therefore, what you say is meaningless. BTW: I know when they lived and don't need you to tell me what I already know.
> 
> Go try and attempt to tell some other person what you believe because I have no interest in your beliefs and lies.


We knew that long ago. The only person you are interested in is yourself and your self promotion.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> So you can call them what you want but they cannot claim themselves Jews?
> 
> You're nuts.
> 
> They are Jews, believe in one and only one God, their Saviour, as I do PERIOD.


Believe what you want to believe. A closed mind cannot open to new thoughts that conflict with what it has been taught.

But do you consider Christians to be people who practice Christianity? Do you consider Muslims to be those who are faithful to Islam? If so, how can you consider converts to Christianity, people who accept Jesus, to be Jews if they do not practice Judaism?

I have fellow congregants who were born into Gentile families of various denominations who have become Jews by choice. They no longer consider themselves Lutheran or Catholic; they are practicing Jews and have documentation to prove they have converted to Judaism. They have an unconfused understanding of who they are.

When I was younger and lived in a more urban community, I was exposed to people calling themselves Jews for Jesus. After hearing them out, I concluded they were former Jews who had accepted Jesus as the Messiah. I considered them truly confused as to who they really were vis-a-vis religious identity. If they accepted Jesus, why were their convictions not strong enough that they called themselves Christians? I thought it was an insult to Christianity, their schizophrenic religious claims.

But, again, believe what makes you happy. Whether you are right or wrong, if you are right in your own mind, enjoy your convictions. But let me be comfortable in my opinion of "gerecht mishugenah".


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> The war on women is between a woman and her child...the battleground is the womb...the victim is the innocent party.


 :thumbup:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> You continue to show your evil side. What does your comment imply? That KPG is anti-Semitic?
> 
> News flash: If you are born in Italy and parents are Italian, you can wear contacts to change your eye color, you can dye your hair, you could have a sex change, you could have your bones broken and stretched to make you taller, you can eat a ton of carrots and change your skin color,.............but guess what, you are still Italian


And if you move to another country and become a citizen of that country in a naturalisation ceremony you become a citizen of whatever your new country is.

In Australia we hold naturalisation or citizenship days when new arrivals can become Australian citizens. They have to reside in Australia for a number of years and pass a citizenship examination. After the ceremony they become Australians and cease being new Australians, the title they receive when they first arrive in Australia.

So and Italian can move to Australia, reside here for the required number of years, pass the citizenship examination and undergo the naturalisation or citizenship ceremony and they then become an Australian. Some people do retain dual citizenship status, others do not, it is their choice. In former years they were required to forsake their citizenship of their birth country. This is no longer required.

Eye colour, hair colour or height do not make you an Italian. Italians come in all sizes with all shades of hair colour and eye colour. It is the same with people of all countries, they are all different.


----------



## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> :thumbup:


Hey kiddo
Did you know that after the BMW plant in Tennessee the UAW went ballistic. They are now saying they lost the vote because there were not enough African Americans worked there? What????


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I am not inferring anything, I do not know your friends. How did this become a statement that I made was inferring something about your friends. But you made the assumption that I was talking about your friends. I commented on my friend's sister who returned to live in Israel and is a Messianic Jew. She does not consider herself a Christian, she considers herself a Jew, a Messianic Jew. She observes Jewish feast days, fasting days and dietary restrictions. She has always said she considers Jesus Christ to be the Messiah, and considers herself a Messianic Jew. But you have posted that your friends were not Messianic Jews but Christians, which implies you know about whom I was speaking. I was not aware that my friend's sister, her husband and two daughters were your friends. You therefore must also know my friend.
> 
> Interesting to learn that my friend's sister and her family are your friends.


You are hopeless. I didn't assume anything, I said *if*. Since you cannot communicate with others effectively, I'll go back to not reading nor saying anything more to you in response (as I didn't even read beyond the first few sentences of this post to recognize any more of your illogical thinking.)


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> You continue to show your evil side. What does your comment imply? That KPG is anti-Semitic?
> 
> News flash: If you are born in Italy and parents are Italian, you can wear contacts to change your eye color, you can dye your hair, you could have a sex change, you could have your bones broken and stretched to make you taller, you can eat a ton of carrots and change your skin color,.............but guess what, you are still Italian


What do physical attributes have to do with "faith"?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Hey kiddo
> Did you know that after the BMW plant in Tennessee the UAW went ballistic. They are now saying they lost the vote because there were not enough African Americans worked there? What????


Can you get a single fact straight?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't care about the topic at the moment.

Did you excuse KKK and skinhead members as just being ethnically proud? That's the only question right now. Thank you. 
**************************************************************************
I retract the question. 
**************************************************************************



Gerslay said:


> You are misunderstanding. The subject is/was Messianic Jews until Susan brought Hitler into it for some nefarious purpose.
> 
> And don't think we all didn't notice the purpose...nor yours!


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You are hopeless. I didn't assume anything, I said *if*. Since you cannot communicate with others effectively, I'll go back to not reading nor saying anything more to you in response (as I didn't even read beyond the first few sentences of this post to recognize more illogical thinking.)


YAY, Eve, you are one of the blessed.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Believe what you want to believe. A closed mind cannot open to new thoughts that conflict with what it has been taught.


You must mean like your mind.

Because I know I can believe as I choose, what I can learn and what I've been taught which is contrary to most of what you believe and attempt to tell me is the one and only correct way of thinking.

I think for myself and continue to learn with my open mind.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

damemary said:


> I don't care about the topic at the moment.
> 
> Did you excuse KKK and skinhead members as just being ethnically proud? That's the only question right now. Thank you.


I so love a smart, strong, woman especially when she stands up for herself against a bully.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

So it was a poorly written topic line. Gotcha.



Janet Cooke said:


> I believe, Empress, that the initial post was on put up as an argument that there is no war on women which is why it quickly devolved into the pro-choice anti-choice argument because there have been thousands and thousands of state laws passed so recently to restrict access, to attempt to force state sanctioned rape of women prior to abortion... those fun little trans-vaginal probes.
> And then there are the federal attempts to cut back on women's rights under the US Constitution.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I am not inferring anything, I do not know your friends. How did this become a statement that I made was inferring something about your friends. But you made the assumption that I was talking about your friends. I commented on my friend's sister who returned to live in Israel and is a Messianic Jew. She does not consider herself a Christian, she considers herself a Jew, a Messianic Jew. She observes Jewish feast days, fasting days and dietary restrictions. She has always said she considers Jesus Christ to be the Messiah, and considers herself a Messianic Jew. But you have posted that your friends were not Messianic Jews but Christians, which implies you know about whom I was speaking. I was not aware that my friend's sister, her husband and two daughters were your friends. You therefore must also know my friend.
> 
> Interesting to learn that my friend's sister and her family are your friends.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Thanks Eve.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Believe what you want to believe. A closed mind cannot open to new thoughts that conflict with what it has been taught.
> 
> But do you consider Christians to be people who practice Christianity? Do you consider Muslims to be those who are faithful to Islam? If so, how can you consider converts to Christianity, people who accept Jesus, to be Jews if they do not practice Judaism?
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You must mean like your mind.
> 
> Because I know I can believe as I choose, what I can learn and what I've been taught which is contrary to most of what you believe and attempt to tell me is the one and only correct way of thinking.
> 
> I think for myself and continue to learn with my open mind.


Wow, your mind is so open it seems to have emptied out!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Yes. Bless Empress Eve.



Janet Cooke said:


> YAY, Eve, you are one of the blessed.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Wow, your mind is so open it seems to have emptied out!


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Nice practical answer.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Wow, your mind is so open it seems to have emptied out!


It is amusing to watch her convince herself that she is so important to others that impacting on her beliefs would matter. 
She truly doesn't understand that her contribution is as a drone in so many ways.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Hey kiddo
> Did you know that after the BMW plant in Tennessee the UAW went ballistic. They are now saying they lost the vote because there were not enough African Americans worked there? What????


Yes, I heard, but I think is was a VW plant, not BMW. Not that is matters, but that particular Union's membership went down approximately 66% in the past years. The reason isn't because of the voting population, the reason is because the voting workers recognized that they are better off and fair better without the Union's representation.

I thought after the defeat of the Union push in WI surrounding Scott Walker who was re-elected by a greater number of votes after the re-call election, the entire population of Unions and their control would be affected across the USA; it has and its membership continues to be going down.

The Unions are no longer relevant nor necessary for the purpose they once served.

Since the Unions have been the largest donors to Democratic politicians, and btw, they have ONLY supported Dems, it is a huge concern for the National Dem Party.


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## lovethelake (Apr 6, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Yes, I heard, but I think is was a VW plant, not BMW. Not that is matters, but the Union's membership went down approximately 66%. The reason isn't because of the voting population, the reason is because the workers recognized that they are better off and fair better without the Union representation.
> 
> I thought after the defeat if WI surrounding Scott Walker, the entire population of Union control would be affected; it has and continues to be going done.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clarification. I think BMW is planning to build some factories down there. But regardless now Bob Beckle (sp?) is blaming the Confederacy for the failed vote. And saying the unions just did not have a "good ole boy network" in Tennessee. What???? Talk about profiling. These employees are happy with their jobs, wages, and workplace environment. Why would the want to pay dues, what would they gain? Besides that, do you honestly think they want to become the next Detroit?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

lovethelake said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I think BMW is planning to build some factories down there. But regardless now Bob Beckle (sp?) is blaming the Confederacy for the failed vote. And saying the unions just did not have a "good ole boy network" in Tennessee. What???? Talk about profiling. These employees are happy with their jobs, wages, and workplace environment. Why would the want to pay dues, what would they gain? Besides that, do you honestly think they want to become the next Detroit?


Funniest thing is that the Union told the VW's employees they wouldn't even have to pay any union dues and would receive the representation and the "benefits" of representation! The employees *still* decided against the Union (rumored that VW mgmt _ wanted_ the Union in the plant) even though it would have cost them no Union dues!

Gotta love the irony! :-D

Big "egg on the face" crisis moment for the Union!

Not sure about you, but I'm dancing the side-step.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Blah Blah Blah
> 
> Go find something you actually like that someone said and comment about that.
> I note that you don't support KPG's statement you just go on the attack against someone you oppose politically.


We were having a conversion until susan and you started in with your bullying and name calling. It is all I ever see from either of you. Some like to understand others views but both of you have to draw the attention away to yourselves and your hate . Pretty sad . But Bullies have to well, bully. Also suzi has to add her nonsense to get attention.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

So, this is where everyone has gone for the vitriol-throwing contest. Obamacare is pretty boring now. KPG, the anti-union movement is another facet of the movement to destroy the middle class.


knitpresentgifts said:


> Yes, I heard, but I think is was a VW plant, not BMW. Not that is matters, but that particular Union's membership went down approximately 66% in the past years. The reason isn't because of the voting population, the reason is because the voting workers recognized that they are better off and fair better without the Union's representation.
> 
> I thought after the defeat of the Union push in WI surrounding Scott Walker who was re-elected by a greater number of votes after the re-call election, the entire population of Unions and their control would be affected across the USA; it has and its membership continues to be going down.
> 
> ...


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Yes, I heard, but I think is was a VW plant, not BMW. Not that is matters, but that particular Union's membership went down approximately 66% in the past years. The reason isn't because of the voting population, the reason is because the voting workers recognized that they are better off and fair better without the Union's representation.
> 
> I thought after the defeat of the Union push in WI surrounding Scott Walker who was re-elected by a greater number of votes after the re-call election, the entire population of Unions and their control would be affected across the USA; it has and its membership continues to be going down.
> 
> ...


Isn't it funny how Unions fought here and lost. Now at least State workers have a choice as to join union or not and can not be fired like was being done if didn't join unions.
Have to tell you some day what my hubby and I think about union he had to join in order to get job. Not good one and reason union are not doing the job they started out as in days of old..


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> There is a long list of "goings on", all of them self serving and selfish.


That would be both of you. Attention hogs. Always have to have the floor. Look at me, look at me.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> We were having a conversion until susan and you started in with your bullying and name calling. It is all I ever see from either of you. Some like to understand others views but both of you have to draw the attention away to yourselves and your hate . Pretty sad . But Bullies have to well, bully. Also suzi has to add her nonsense to get attention.


 :thumbup: Isn't that the truth.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> So, this is where everyone has gone for the vitriol-throwing contest. Obamacare is pretty boring now. KPG, the anti-union movement is another facet of the movement to destroy the middle class.


Unions are destorying themselves and Obama is destroying the middle class. But then some will not believe it till the rug is pulled out from under them.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Unions are destorying themselves and Obama is destroying the middle class. But then some will not believe it till the rug is pulled out from under them.


yep


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> And if you move to another country and become a citizen of that country in a naturalisation ceremony you become a citizen of whatever your new country is.
> 
> In Australia we hold naturalisation or citizenship days when new arrivals can become Australian citizens. They have to reside in Australia for a number of years and pass a citizenship examination. After the ceremony they become Australians and cease being new Australians, the title they receive when they first arrive in Australia.
> 
> ...


And there are people here in the US who get downright irate if someone hyphenated it's, like "African-American, Italian-American, native-American," ect.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Far be it from me interrupting a 'conversion.' Or was it a conversation?



Country Bumpkins said:


> We were having a conversion until susan and you started in with your bullying and name calling. It is all I ever see from either of you. Some like to understand others views but both of you have to draw the attention away to yourselves and your hate . Pretty sad . But Bullies have to well, bully. Also suzi has to add her nonsense to get attention.


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Maybe you need a conversion.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That requires a sincere interest, doesn't it? Or do you just convert everyone off the street?



Country Bumpkins said:


> Maybe you need a conversion.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People
> By Harry Ostrer
> 
> In his new book, Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People, Harry Ostrer, a medical geneticist and professor at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, claims that Jews are different, and the differences are not just skin deep. Jews exhibit, he writes, a distinctive genetic signature. Considering that the Nazis tried to exterminate Jews based on their supposed racial distinctiveness, such a conclusion might be a cause for concern. But Ostrer sees it as central to Jewish identity.
> ...


Are you kidding, Joey? Do you truly believe, as Entine claims, that "Jewish success is a product of Jewish genes as much as of Jewish moms" ? That's utter hogwash--there are no "Jewish" genes, and Tay-Sachs is _not_ a "Jewish" disease. It's a genetic abnormality found in many isolated human populations--among those the French Canadians in Southeastern Quebec and the Cajuns of southern Louisiana.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> We were having a conversion until susan and you started in with your bullying and name calling. It is all I ever see from either of you. Some like to understand others views but both of you have to draw the attention away to yourselves and your hate . Pretty sad . But Bullies have to well, bully. Also suzi has to add her nonsense to get attention.


We are still having a conversation, it is just more honest.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

damemary said:


> That requires a sincere interest, doesn't it? Or do you just convert everyone off the street?


Not sure how it can be too sincere since she doesn't seem to have the intestinal fortitude to address it to anyone. 
Maybe she meant it for LTL or KPG


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Yes, I heard, but I think is was a VW plant, not BMW. Not that is matters, but that particular Union's membership went down approximately 66% in the past years. The reason isn't because of the voting population, the reason is because the voting workers recognized that they are better off and fair better without the Union's representation.
> 
> I thought after the defeat of the Union push in WI surrounding Scott Walker who was re-elected by a greater number of votes after the re-call election, the entire population of Unions and their control would be affected across the USA; it has and its membership continues to be going down.
> 
> ...


Actually, the member loss is 75% since 1979.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Are you kidding, Joey? Do you truly believe, as Entine claims, that "Jewish success is a product of Jewish genes as much as of Jewish moms" ? That's utter hogwash--there are no "Jewish" genes, and Tay-Sachs is _not_ a "Jewish" disease. It's a genetic abnormality found in many isolated human populations--among those the French Canadians in Southeastern Quebec and the Cajuns of southern Louisiana.


When I googled it I found at least one molecular scientist who very strongly disagrees. He tried to have a discussion with Oster about the book and asked for studies, ect. But was told that they were not publicly available and to get them he had to tell them why he wanted them. That sounds a bit fishy. It's been put forth that the book has political leanings toward Zionism and that is why the studies aren't publicly available, so they can't be peer reviewed and contested or replicated. I don't know, have done too much more research into it. I do know those that those studies aren't easily found by the search engine. I'm a sucker for research studies so of course I had to do a quick look, lol.

A quick look on pubmed does not lend itself to studies regarding the familiarity of Jewish genomes present among all Jews. In fact in the studies they specific the differences between medical characteristic between different populations of Jews, like the middle eastern and Caucasian Jews. Very interesting actually.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Here is something one should really think on.

http://www.all.org/nav/index/heading/OQ/cat/MzQ/id/NjA4MA/


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Here is something one should really think on.
> 
> http://www.all.org/nav/index/heading/OQ/cat/MzQ/id/NjA4MA/


I read it--no abortion even in cases of rape, incest, or to save the mother's life. Do you really believe this?


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You are hopeless. I didn't assume anything, I said *if*. Since you cannot communicate with others effectively, I'll go back to not reading nor saying anything more to you in response (as I didn't even read beyond the first few sentences of this post to recognize any more of your illogical thinking.)


knitpresentgifts
here you go again " did'nt even read......." Really? You devour each and every word we write and not only that you keep going back ages to re-read our posts.


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

west coast kitty said:


> You and your friends have been putting out plenty of your own sanctimonious hyprocrisy - name calling, judging, disparaging remarks, belittling, commenting on people's faith and morals ... There's no moral high ground on your side to criticize anyone else's comments.
> 
> Over the course of the last few months, I've read some of the crude, lewd and totally disgusting statements made by some of your friends. You complain about using the words stupid or idiot, but I didn't see you complaining when my friends were called vermin with graphic descriptions on how they could be squashed or bringing out the Raid cans. There are plenty more examples that are as bad or worse.
> 
> I suggest you and your friends clean up your own act before condemning others


And I don't see you chiding your cronies, either. People who proclaim Christianity vehemently should act and talk that way, don't you think?


----------



## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Yes, I heard, but I think is was a VW plant, not BMW. Not that is matters, but that particular Union's membership went down approximately 66% in the past years. The reason isn't because of the voting population, the reason is because the voting workers recognized that they are better off and fair better without the Union's representation.
> 
> I thought after the defeat of the Union push in WI surrounding Scott Walker who was re-elected by a greater number of votes after the re-call election, the entire population of Unions and their control would be affected across the USA; it has and its membership continues to be going down.
> 
> ...


The vote was very close in this VW plant. I don't believe elected government officials ought to butt into this process with inaccuracies and threats as did the two repubs involved. Other than the plants in China, this becomes the only VW plant in the world with no worker representation. Isn't it great that American workers in Tennessee have the same voice as Chinese workers?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> Isn't it funny how Unions fought here and lost. Now at least State workers have a choice as to join union or not and can not be fired like was being done if didn't join unions.
> Have to tell you some day what my hubby and I think about union he had to join in order to get job. Not good one and reason union are not doing the job they started out as in days of old..


I agree; as I stated what happened (re the unions) in WI was a big turning point not only for your state, but also across the entire USA.

In a good way, in my opinion. :thumbup:


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> That would be both of you. Attention hogs. Always have to have the floor. Look at me, look at me.


I hadn't even noticed! :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> Unions are destorying themselves and Obama is destroying the middle class. But then some will not believe it till the rug is pulled out from under them.


 :thumbup: The rug is being tugged and rolled up and "they" don't even realize why.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I read it--no abortion even in cases of rape, incest, or to save the mother's life. Do you really believe this?


I have to say this, if I were anti-choice because I believed that abortion was murder I would have to opt for no abortion. 
For me it is all or nothing, either it is a medical procedure as an elective surgery or it is killing a human. 
There really is no middle ground. 
If the thought process is that these are children/babies then how could we murder them for being the children of a rapist.

The fact is that is not the case, it is biological material. It cannot survive without acting as a parasite.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I read it--no abortion even in cases of rape, incest, or to save the mother's life. Do you really believe this?


Sadly I have known people who do very strongly believe this. Amazingly even though they quote opinions about the woman not surviving even with abortion or that they can make both of them survive the science behind it is missing. I know many women who have sadly had to have abortions or they would have died long before the fetus would be at a viable stage. Since it was a pregnancy disease it would be "cured" by an abortion. Many of these are women who desperately wanted a child, some who had gone to great lengths to even get pregnant. It is a sad situation and not one that a person who has never had to face should be passing quick judgements over.

I wonder though if these same people are opposed to organ donation? Organs are procured while the person is still on life support, but is brain dead. Very early in pregnancy there is no brain to be tested to check for brain signals and as far as I know there has been no EEG's performed to prove that a fetus is in fact brain functioning or when it begins. So it would follow that the same rules would apply for brain dead people as it applied to an early pregnancy. And reaction to pain does not denote a thinking response. Pain reaction is a reflex and even people who are brain dead react to pain (how they react is an indication of how brain damaged or functioning they are).


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Wow, your mind is so open it seems to have emptied out!


So beautifully put!!!


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> They're playing something, Janet--and it certainly isn't a nice quiet game of bridge. I'd like to chalk up their claims that the Jewish people constitute a race/ethnicity/nationality to some backward and muddle-headed thinking, but their shrill defensiveness indeed makes me suspect that something else is going on here.


I believe that is what the Nazi's thought.


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> So you can call them what you want but they cannot claim themselves Jews?
> 
> You're nuts.
> 
> They are Jews, believe in one and only one God, their Saviour, as I do PERIOD.


In all due respect, if a Jew accepts Jesus, ht/she is no longer a Jew. Jews do not believe that messiah has come. Therefor accepting Jesus they are refuting the Jewish laws. They are Christians and can not call themselves Jews.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

I feel a bit left out. All this debate about religion really brings people together, doesn't it? I wish I were part of this happy, happy family.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Lkholcomb said:


> Sadly I have known people who do very strongly believe this. Amazingly even though they quote opinions about the woman not surviving even with abortion or that they can make both of them survive the science behind it is missing. I know many women who have sadly had to have abortions or they would have died long before the fetus would be at a viable stage. Since it was a pregnancy disease it would be "cured" by an abortion. Many of these are women who desperately wanted a child, some who had gone to great lengths to even get pregnant. It is a sad situation and not one that a person who has never had to face should be passing quick judgements over.
> 
> I wonder though if these same people are opposed to organ donation? Organs are procured while the person is still on life support, but is brain dead. Very early in pregnancy there is no brain to be tested to check for brain signals and as far as I know there has been no EEG's performed to prove that a fetus is in fact brain functioning or when it begins. So it would follow that the same rules would apply for brain dead people as it applied to an early pregnancy. And reaction to pain does not denote a thinking response. Pain reaction is a reflex and even people who are brain dead react to pain (how they react is an indication of how brain damaged or functioning they are).


Now that's a good question. 
It would be interesting to hear how those who weighed in with Terry Schiavo's family of origin on that case feel about a case like that Texas case with the mother who was taken off life support even though she was pregnant and the organ transplant issue. 
Do we take into consideration that it will save another life?
What about kidney transplant if the person is a documented organ donor?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> I have to say this, if I were anti-choice because I believed that abortion was murder I would have to opt for no abortion.
> For me it is all or nothing, either it is a medical procedure as an elective surgery or it is killing a human.
> There really is no middle ground.
> If the thought process is that these are children/babies then how could we murder them for being the children of a rapist.


True enough--but in their heart of hearts I think the anti-choice folks really can see the difference between an eight-week old fetus and an eight-day old newborn. They're awfully quick to forgive women who have had abortions, usually insisting that they been duped, mislead, or tricked. Contrast that with their clamor for Andrea Yates' (the woman who drowned her children in the bathtub) head. She really was mislead by the voices inside her own head--a very very sick woman--but nonetheless they want to see her fry.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

rocky1991 said:


> In all due respect, if a Jew accepts Jesus, ht/she is no longer a Jew. Jews do not believe that messiah has come. Therefor accepting Jesus they are refuting the Jewish laws. They are Christians and can not call themselves Jews.


I think that the thing that is confusing for us, the outsiders is the lack of division between heritage sans religion and the full blown cultural experience. 
Since our ethnic background and religion are not so closely interwoven it is hard to figure out.

Susie can be Roman Catholic, her ancesters from Italy, and she can do some research and like Islam as a fit and still be Italian.


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> So you can call them what you want but they cannot claim themselves Jews?
> 
> You're nuts.
> 
> They are Jews, believe in one and only one God, their Saviour, as I do PERIOD.


The difference is once they accept Jesus, they no longer follow the tenets of Judaism


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

rocky1991 said:


> I believe that is what the Nazi's thought.


Bingo. KPG's statement that Jews who convert to Christianity "remain as they were born: Jewish (no one can change that anyway)" struck a very sour note with me.


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Well, because I listed Jesus last in the series of names, my comment was inaccurate later when including Jesus as a Christian. Other than that, I stand by what I said. All the men I listed loved God and were followers of Christ and were Jews - therefore, what you say is meaningless. BTW: I know when they lived and don't need you to tell me what I already know.
> 
> Learn about how Abraham's son, a Jew, Ishmael, and mistress mom, Hagar, created a new nation as God commanded.
> 
> Go try and attempt to tell some other person what you believe because I have no interest in your beliefs and lies.


Explain, please how Abraham believed in Christ?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> I feel a bit left out. All this debate about religion really brings people together, doesn't it? I wish I were part of this happy, happy family.


Happy? Surely you jest!


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Happy? Surely you jest!


Well, yes. It scares and angers and depresses the living insides of me. I was trying to cheer myself up.


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Messianic Jews blend both Judiasm and Christianity. My friend's sister returned to live in Israel but has to keep very quiet about converting to become a Messianic Jew. The authorities there frown on Messianic Jews.


Once you convert..........you are a convert.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> Sadly I have known people who do very strongly believe this. Amazingly even though they quote opinions about the woman not surviving even with abortion or that they can make both of them survive the science behind it is missing.


If a woman wants to risk her life trying to carry a pregnancy to term I don't have a problem with it--but to try to force that belief system on other women is simply impossible. I've wondered what would happen if abortions became illegal in all circumstances and a woman forcibly impregnated did in fact die. Would the rapist then be a murderer? What about a man who lied about having a vasectomy and impregnated his girlfriend, thus putting her life at serious risk?


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> Well, yes. It scares and angers and depresses the living insides of me. I was trying to cheer myself up.


Well, step on over the revival tent. Maybe watching the so-called "Christian" clowns try to juggle ten Bibles at once will brighten your mood.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I agree; as I stated what happened (re the unions) in WI was a big turning point not only for your state, but also across the entire USA.
> 
> In a good way, in my opinion. :thumbup:


It wasn't only the auto workers that didn't want the union. Many people indirectly involved with the factory didn't want the union either. In a way it was families voting against the unions, not solely the worker. Definitely in a good way.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

rocky1991 said:


> I believe that is what the Nazi's thought.


You don't seem to know your history regarding Naziism and Planned Parenthood:

Adolf Hitler, Dictator of Nazi Germany, "The demand that defective people be prevented from propagating equally defective offspring... represents the most humane act of mankind." ~Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, vol 1, ch 10

Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood, "...we prefer the policy of immediate sterilization, of making sure that parenthood is 'absolutely prohibited' to the feeble-minded." ~Margaret Sanger, The Pivot of Civilization, p102

Most people today think that Planned Parenthood and Nazi Germany have little in common. Their histories show otherwise. Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, subscribed to a Hitlerian philosophy of Eugenics - the science of improving "racial health" by socially engineering human reproduction. Both Hitler and the founders of Planned Parenthood advocate birth control, sterilization, and segregation in concentration camps for the "unfit."

"Birth Control: to create a race of thoroughbreds"
Slogan of Margaret Sanger - Founder of Planned Parenthood


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Lkholcomb said:


> And there are people here in the US who get downright irate if someone hyphenated it's, like "African-American, Italian-American, native-American," ect.


What's wrong with being American first? Most of these Americans have never set foot in their ancestor's country, so why put that country first? What does it accomplish other than dividing/identifying/profiling/separating the individual? Our goal should be to be Americans first.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> What's wrong with being American first? Most of these Americans have never set foot in their ancestor's country, so why put that country first? What does it accomplish other than dividing/identifying/profiling/separating the individual? Our goal should be to be Americans first.


An odd sentiment from someone who supposedly believes in God the Father... is God the Father only that to Americans?


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Waiting for MedRide here. More d***n snow, enough already!
Anyway...


Learn about how Abraham's son, a Jew, Ishmael, and mistress mom, Hagar, created a new nation as God commanded.

Hagar was NOT Abraham's mistress, she was Sarah's slave and given to Abraham for purposes of procreation. It's not like she had any choice to refuse. And KPG, I'm still waiting to read a post of yours that is pleasant, positive, and not vilifying anyone. I have a few days to wait.

Till then, everyone, stay safe and blessed be!


----------



## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> You don't seem to know your history regarding Naziism and Planned Parenthood:
> 
> Adolf Hitler, Dictator of Nazi Germany, "The demand that defective people be prevented from propagating equally defective offspring... represents the most humane act of mankind." ~Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, vol 1, ch 10
> 
> ...


She was absolutely wrong about eugenics. but birth control is a good thing.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

maysmom said:


> Hagar was NOT Abraham's mistress, she was Sarah's slave and given to Abraham for purposes of procreation. It's not like she had any choice to refuse. And KPG, I'm still waiting to read a post of yours that is pleasant, positive, and not vilifying anyone. I have a few days to wait.


Look up the various definitions of the word "mistress" particularly in the time of Abraham and Hagar, although a couple of definitions apply that are still used as I did today. You've got two days, that ought to be enough for you to learn about the word and its proper use.

Have a great and smiley day!


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

rocky1991 said:


> She was absolutely wrong about eugenics. but birth control is a good thing.


The same people who would vilify Sanger for being a woman of her times will excuse Jefferson for raping his slave(s) and claim that it was appropriate to call Africans 60% human.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> If a woman wants to risk her life trying to carry a pregnancy to term I don't have a problem with it--but to try to force that belief system on other women is simply impossible. I've wondered what would happen if abortions became illegal in all circumstances and a woman forcibly impregnated did in fact die. Would the rapist then be a murderer? What about a man who lied about having a vasectomy and impregnated his girlfriend, thus putting her life at serious risk?


I have no problem if a woman wishes to continue in a pregnancy either. I personally did, but I don't another woman who didn't. The questions you pose do lead to some deeper questions. I think, based on other attitudes, that a lot of people would be quick to blame "the pregnancy" and not the person who impregnated them against their will.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Look up the definition and/origin of the word "mistress" particularly in the time of Abraham and Hagar, although there are definitions that apply and still are used today. You've got two days, that ought to be enough for even you to learn about the word and its proper use.
> 
> Have a great and smiley day!


Hmmm, this almost comes across as pleasant and polite...nah.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Here's a little pearl of wisom for this necklace of Biblical knowledge--


Bad news for biblical literalists: Recent research conducted by two Tel Aviv University archaeologists shows that camels weren't domesticated in the eastern Mediterranean until the 10th century B.C., centuries after they appear in the Hebrew Bible.

The study, as reported in National Geographic by Jewniverse writer Mairav Zonszein, explains that researchers were primarily concerned with the arrival of domesticated camels to Israel's Aravah Valley, and that the biblical timeline was not the focus of their research.

The camel, or dromedary, is mentioned in the Bible 47 times, in passages such as Genesis 24:11: "And he made his camels to kneel down without the city by a well of water." Popular belief is that the Bible's stories took place between 2000 and 1500 B.C., but now we know that camels weren't exactly in the neighborhood at the time.

This certainly isn't the first time the biblical narrative diverges from the archeological record. A 2010 discovery all but proved that the Israelites didn't build the Egyptian pyramids after all. "No Jews built the pyramids," said one Hebrew University archeologist, "because Jews didn't exist at the period when the pyramids were built."

Add it to the list of topics to fight about during this year's Passover Seder.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> You don't seem to know your history regarding Naziism and Planned Parenthood:
> 
> Adolf Hitler, Dictator of Nazi Germany, "The demand that defective people be prevented from propagating equally defective offspring... represents the most humane act of mankind." ~Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, vol 1, ch 10
> 
> ...


So was Charles Lindberg. Your point?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> It wasn't only the auto workers that didn't want the union. Many people indirectly involved with the factory didn't want the union either. In a way it was families voting against the unions, not solely the worker. Definitely in a good way.


I know, isn't it great? Folks are beginning to use their heads and acting like responsible adults and becoming engaged. There is hope!


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> What's wrong with being American first? Most of these Americans have never set foot in their ancestor's country, so why put that country first? What does it accomplish other than dividing/identifying/profiling/separating the individual? Our goal should be to be Americans first.


I am not saying that if one chooses to identify themselves as American only there is anything wrong. If you look at the conversation people claimed that once Italian, you can't change it no matter what you do or what surgeries you have or where you move. That is just contradictory if the thinking is also that once you are an American you are only an American. Having an Italian (or Jewish, or whatever) heritage is not the same as * being * Italian.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> An odd sentiment from someone who supposedly believes in God the Father... is God the Father only that to Americans?


You constantly confuse me with someone else. I am not a religious person and do not participate in the religious posts on any thread.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

maysmom said:


> Hmmm, this almost comes across as pleasant and polite...nah.


Nice to know I could teach you something and that you hang onto my every word, granted, telling me off each and every time and trying to prove I'm wrong and you're right on my beliefs, opinions and facts. Whatever; at least you are learning something so I'm pleased. Eventually, something will settle you and perhaps you'll be more pleasant to others and to respond to as well.

Meanwhile, I'll remember your every post to me and your vile and unsolicited words.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> You constantly confuse me with someone else. I am not a religious person and do not participate in the religious posts on any thread.


She confuses everybody and everything - tries to twist everyone's words and everyone's context of words, and confuses herself on nearly every issue not knowing which side to take until one of the other Libs tells her what to think/do. Don't you know that Solo? :XD: I know that you know that!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> You don't seem to know your history regarding Naziism and Planned Parenthood:
> 
> Adolf Hitler, Dictator of Nazi Germany, "The demand that defective people be prevented from propagating equally defective offspring... represents the most humane act of mankind." ~Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, vol 1, ch 10
> 
> ...


Wow, Gerslay; I didn't know about Sanger's thoughts; wish to know no more.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Waiting for MedRide here. More d***n snow, enough already!
> Anyway...
> 
> Learn about how Abraham's son, a Jew, Ishmael, and mistress mom, Hagar, created a new nation as God commanded.
> ...


Wonderful to hear from you, May--hope all is going well. Take care.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> She confuses everybody and everything - tries to twist everyone's words and everyone's context of words, and confuses herself on nearly every issue not knowing which side to take until one of the other Libs tells her what to think/do. Don't you know that Solo? :XD: I know that you know that!


Really? Cuz one of your pally pals complained about some of us messing up the thread started by a fundamentalist Christian (this thread). Sorry you missed that, you could have straightened it out then.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

rocky1991 said:


> I believe that is what the Nazi's thought.


You should really stop trying to connect Christian thinking regarding Messianic Jews and their ethnicity and/or their nationality with Nazi thinking...

...when it was the progressive left that promoted Eugenics up and until just after WWII when the world learned about the full meaning of the word.

----------

"Is it any coincidence that the founders of Planned Parenthood were racists and Nazi propagandists...and that so many of its clinics today are in minority neighborhoods. According to their own statistics, 42.7% of the abortions performed by Planned Parenthood are on minorities - that's three times more than on whites, as a percentage of their respective populations.

Is it any coincidence that Planned Parenthood publicly supports China's brutal one-child policy, which coerces or forces millions of women into having abortions. So much for "reproductive freedom"!

Like Adolf Hitler, Planned Parenthood has subjected us to a scapegoat philosophy, which blames societal problems on its poorest members, which sanctioning the avarice of the richest.

In its early days, Planned Parenthood inflamed the rich and educated elite against poor people with its philosophy of "racial health." Today, the same organization continues to inflame the wealthy nations with a philosophy of "population control".

The effect of these two arguments is the same: poor woman are coerced into abortion, birth control, and sterilization."

~Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate
Mount Saint Francis Hermitage

----------

Planned Parenthood...the abortionists...the racists!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Wow, Gerslay; I didn't know about Sanger's thoughts; wish to know no more.


Stay tuned!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Margaret Sanger, Planned Parenthood

In the 19th century, Margaret Sanger embraced Thomas Malthus' view that the weak should be purged from society to maintain order. In 1916, Sanger founded Planned Parenthood; in 1939, she outlined her plan to eliminate the Black community.

http://cwfa.org/library/life/1999-12_pp_a-history

Planned Parenthood...the real War on Women!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

SANGER'S VIEW OF AMERICA

"Thoroughbreds" - Allowed to Reproduce = 13.5% of the population
"Borderline cases" - "a greater menace" = 39.2% of the population
"Morons" - Sterilize and Segregate = 47.3% of the population

She went on to say that "only 13,500.00 [or 13.5% of the 100 million U.S. population of the time] will ever show superior intelligence" ibid, p. 264. These must be her "thoroughbreds." the ones who are not "tainted". Remember that she considered "borderline cases" the most dangerous. Thus, for Sanger, 86.5% of the population would be "morons" or "borderline cases" and prevented from procreation! Not even Hitler went this far. For the 47.3% who "are morons" she suggested:

"The emergency problem of segregation and sterilization must be faced immediately. Every feeble-minded girl or woman of the hereditary type, specially of the moron class, should be segregated during the reproductive period. We prefer the policy of immediate sterilization, of making sure that parenthood is absolutely prohibited to the feeble-minded."


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

"The Cruelty of Charity"

Chapter 5 of Sanger's book is titled "The Cruelty of Charity". In it she wrote: "Organized charity itself is...the surest sign that our civilization has bred, is breeding and is perpetuating constantly increasing numbers of defectives, delinquents and dependents". The Pivot of Civilization, p. 108

Sanger's words are almost identical to Hitler's: "This is in keeping with the humanitarianism which, to avoid hurting one individual, lets a hundred others perish. The demand that defective people be prevented from propagating equally defective offspring is a demand of the clearest reason and if systematically executed represents the most humane act of mankind." Mein Kampf vol 1 ch 10


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

In this the first time you have heard of this side of Planned Parenthood? What else is the mass media not telling us about the abortion industry?

If you wish to write to your congressman to stop your tax dollars from going to Planned Parenthood...goto: 
http://congress.nw.dc.us/hli/

Over 1000 similar excerpts from Margaret Sanger's periodical can be found at Human Life International's website:
http://www.hli.org/issues/pp/bcreview/index.html

For brochure copies please contact:
Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate
Mount Saint Francis Hermitage
PO Box 236, Maine, NY 13802


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I have thought about it.



theyarnlady said:


> Here is something one should really think on.
> 
> http://www.all.org/nav/index/heading/OQ/cat/MzQ/id/NjA4MA/


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> knitpresentgifts
> here you go again " did'nt even read......." Really? You devour each and every word we write and not only that you keep going back ages to re-read our posts.


I know this to be a fact. I don't know how she finds time, but she routinely goes through thousands of old posts to find personal information from anyone she dislikes. Been there.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I like your kitties.



aw9358 said:


> I feel a bit left out. All this debate about religion really brings people together, doesn't it? I wish I were part of this happy, happy family.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That's why I sent you the kitties note.



aw9358 said:


> Well, yes. It scares and angers and depresses the living insides of me. I was trying to cheer myself up.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Stay tuned!


Don't get too carried away, she must have ignored it when her other buddies posted it about three months ago. 
You know how it is, garbage in... garbage out.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> You constantly confuse me with someone else. I am not a religious person and do not participate in the religious posts on any thread.


LOL, you are participating in this religious discussion. Did you get lost? 
What do you think the talk about people maintaining their Jewish culture after converting to Christianity is about?


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Nice to know I could teach you something and that you hang onto my every word, granted, telling me off each and every time and trying to prove I'm wrong and you're right on my beliefs, opinions and facts. Whatever; at least you are learning something so I'm pleased. Eventually, something will settle you and perhaps you'll be more pleasant to others and to respond to as well.
> 
> Meanwhile, I'll remember your every post to me and your vile and unsolicited words.


Actually, ma'am, you haven't taught me anything positive if anything at all. And if you think I've written vile, as the saying goes, "you ain't seen nothing yet."

(Thanking you in advance for a sermoan on proper usage of the English language!) Anyway, stay safe in this crazy weather--


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's a trap, I tell you. Leopards don't change their spots.



maysmom said:


> Hmmm, this almost comes across as pleasant and polite...nah.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> "The Cruelty of Charity"
> 
> Chapter 5 of Sanger's book is titled "The Cruelty of Charity". In it she wrote: "Organized charity itself is...the surest sign that our civilization has bred, is breeding and is perpetuating constantly increasing numbers of defectives, delinquents and dependents". The Pivot of Civilization, p. 108
> 
> Sanger's words are almost identical to Hitler's: "This is in keeping with the humanitarianism which, to avoid hurting one individual, lets a hundred others perish. The demand that defective people be prevented from propagating equally defective offspring is a demand of the clearest reason and if systematically executed represents the most humane act of mankind." Mein Kampf vol 1 ch 10


Sounds like a conservative Republican to me!!


----------



## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

damemary said:


> WHAT???? Are you talking about KKK and skinheads? Or am I misunderstanding? "Pride in ethnic history????"


Perhaps you should re-read - the discussion was about messianic Jews and Jews who have converted to Christianity. It was Susan and Janet who introduced Hitler, KKK and skin heads into the discussion and I see nothing to be proud of there


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

See maysmom. I knew it.



knitpresentgifts said:


> Nice to know I could teach you something and that you hang onto my every word, granted, telling me off each and every time and trying to prove I'm wrong and you're right on my beliefs, opinions and facts. Whatever; at least you are learning something so I'm pleased. Eventually, something will settle you and perhaps you'll be more pleasant to others and to respond to as well.
> 
> Meanwhile, I'll remember your every post to me and your vile and unsolicited words.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Don't get too carried away, she must have ignored it when her other buddies posted it about three months ago.
> You know how it is, garbage in... garbage out.


Well that's a shame...I wasn't around to read it three months ago.

This is my own compilation...read it and weep...and you should since you support Planned Parenthood's agenda.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

maysmom said:


> Sounds like a conservative Republican to me!!


I just love how these folks act as if this is new information. 
It was actually during a discussion about Planned Parenthood that this whole Margaret Sanger silliness came up before. 
Because she may have wanted to use birth control to keep certain populations in check meant and means that this is still the case. 
Just like people used to believe that the world was flat so it must be now.
I remember when we were taught that George Washington never told a lie and wore wooden teeth. That is probably true too.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Where were you three months ago? Have you become this knowledgeable in only 3 months? Time sure flies around here.



Gerslay said:


> Well that's a shame...I wasn't around to read it three months ago.
> 
> This is my own compilation...read it and weep...and you should since you support Planned Parenthood's agenda.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

damemary said:


> Where were you three months ago? Have you become this knowledgeable in only 3 months? Time sure flies around here.


Three months ago I was minding my own business on threads related only to knitting...I had no idea you existed...hopefully 3 months from now I will have forgotten all about you.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> I just love how these folks act as if this is new information.
> It was actually during a discussion about Planned Parenthood that this whole Margaret Sanger silliness came up before.
> Because she may have wanted to use birth control to keep certain populations in check meant and means that this is still the case.


Silly? 42% of abortions are performed on minorities? This is silly to you?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Well that's a shame...I wasn't around to read it three months ago.
> 
> This is my own compilation...read it and weep...and you should since you support Planned Parenthood's agenda.


Do you honestly believe that there is anything worthwhile that you can teach me? 
It would come as a huge surprise if any person who immerses themselves in the hate and vitriol and bullying that you do could come up with anything positive to guide me in my journey. 
I read about Margaret Sanger in the late '60s. 
Why don't you go read up on Ronald Reagan, George HW Bush, Oliver North, research the conservatives who have forced their partners to have abortions while making it more difficult for other women to have access?
Why don't you go refresh your memory about that charming Sanford man?
If you want to spread your concern about morals why not worry about people who are alive? Maybe you could spread the word to them and save them from the torturous fires of hell.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

What interested you here?



Gerslay said:


> Three months ago I was minding my own business on threads related only to knitting...I had no idea you existed...hopefully 3 months from now I will have forgotten all about you.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Do you honestly believe that there is anything worthwhile that you can teach me?
> It would come as a huge surprise if any person who immerses themselves in the hate and vitriol and bullying that you do could come up with anything positive to guide me in my journey.
> I read about Margaret Sanger in the late '60s.
> Why don't you go read up on Ronald Reagan, George HW Bush, Oliver North, research the conservatives who have forced their partners to have abortions while making it more difficult for other women to have access?
> ...


Janet does the "Twist and Squirm"


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

damemary said:


> What interested you here?


The gross lie that Republicans have a war on woman...when it is the Democrats who have exploited women for votes and power. They care very little for women beyond that.


----------



## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Took a break from the topic and decided I missed the daily dose of whatever. I agree with deja vu (ala Yogi) all over again.
> 
> Judaism is not a nationality. It is a religion. There are French Jews, British Jews, Ethiopian Jews, American Jews, Brazilian Jews, etc. Israelis are a nationality and most of them are Jews. But not all Israelis are Jews. There are Muslim Israelis also. And Jews mainly believe what they have believed for 5774 years. They believe the same basic tenets Jesus believed.


I agree that Judaism is not a race, but it is more than a religion. -- 
"The Jewish People
Another name for the Children of Israel. It is a reference to the Jews as a nation in the classical sense, meaning a group of people with a shared history and a sense of a group identity rather than a territorial and political entity. "
http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/people.htm

There are many secular Jews, messianic Jews and converted Jews that still share what they see as a Jewish identity.


----------



## west coast kitty (May 26, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> Blah Blah Blah
> 
> Go find something you actually like that someone said and comment about that.
> I note that you don't support KPG's statement you just go on the attack against someone you oppose politically.


I'm not an American so your political leanings don't matter to me. I called you on bringing neo Nazi and fascism into a discussion where it wasn't relevant just to tag someone as a rascist


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Sounds like a conservative Republican to me!!


No, it sounds like the progressive that she was, and one of your heroines I image.

(walking away and whispering to myself: "dingleberry" )


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

But how did you find the thread if you were just a knitter until 3 months ago? I'm curious.



Gerslay said:


> The gross lie that Republicans have a war on woman...when it is the Democrats who have exploited women for votes and power. They care very little for women beyond that.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

west coast kitty said:


> I'm not an American so your political leanings don't matter to me. I called you on bringing neo Nazi and fascism into a discussion where it wasn't relevant just to tag someone as a rascist


For someone who has no interest in the political leanings of Americans you do a whole lot of divisive posting about politics.

You can call me on anything you want, Canadian, British, or American, I really don't care what you think about how I address  arrogance and bigotry.


----------



## maysmom (Sep 22, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> No, it sounds like the progressive that she was, and one of your heroines I image.
> 
> (walking away and whispering to myself: "dingleberry" )


Dingleberry?! Calling me a name now?


----------



## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

http://www.tpnn.com/2014/02/17/alleged-bill-clinton-sexual-harassment-victim-hillary-clinton-is-the-war-on-women/


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Well that's a shame...I wasn't around to read it three months ago.
> 
> This is my own compilation...read it and weep...and you should since you support Planned Parenthood's agenda.


I have never heard Sanger's words before Gerslay, so who knows what Janet is yapping about.

She is on KP probably 16/7, so she probably has read Sanger in another thread; I don't spend that much time reading other's nonsense; and Sanger certainly fits that bill for me.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Three months ago I was minding my own business on threads related only to knitting...I had no idea you existed...hopefully 3 months from now I will have forgotten all about you.


 :thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Thanks Rocky for that wonderful lesson on Judaism. You are quite the scholar.

Depending on the era, Jews were thought of ( and usually blamed for) being a religion, then a race (think Nazism) and now most recently a nation. With any of these definitions, it was an excuse for hate. I think most Jews consider it to be a religion and a culture and those in Israel will add on the nation label.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I have never heard Sanger's words before Gerslay, so who knows what Janet is yapping about.


I guess I am yapping about being well read in comparison to you.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

maysmom said:


> Sounds like a conservative Republican to me!!


Exactly, if that is a progressive, I am not a socialist.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> Thanks Rocky for that wonderful lesson on Judaism. You are quite the scholar.
> 
> Depending on the era, Jews were thought of ( and usually blamed for) being a religion, then a race (think Nazism) and now most recently a nation. With any of these definitions, it was an excuse for hate. I think most Jews consider it to be a religion and a culture and those in Israel will add on the nation label.


I've always thought since I was old enough to be taught and understand, the Jews were a nation formed by God and His chosen people. So, I disagree with your "most recently a nation" words. That's OK, perhaps Christians recognized them that way longer than you ever have. I was taught from The Bible; not the Hebrew Bible as perhaps you might call it.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Of course you were taught the Hebrew Bible - what used to be referred as the Old Testament. Unless it has been substantiated by archeologists, I don't put much credence in THE Bible . I find most of the characters unadmirable, and too much sex and violence. Not so familiar with the 
Christian Bible - only what I have assimilated from pop culture. But I imagine it is full of wars, threats to unbelievers and fear-mongering. Rather read something more uplifting. But of course I understand that THE Bible means a great deal to others and brings them comfort which is very good.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

damemary said:


> What interested you here?


I'm hoping that in a few months she will have forgotten all about you.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> Of course you were taught the Hebrew Bible - what used to be referred as the Old Testament. Unless it has been substantiated by archeologists, I don't put much credence in THE Bible . I find most of the characters unadmirable, and too much sex and violence. Not so familiar with the
> Christian Bible - only what I have assimilated from pop culture. But I imagine it is full of wars, threats to unbelievers and fear-mongering. Rather read something more uplifting. But of course I understand that THE Bible means a great deal to others and brings them comfort which is very good.


No, not so. I was not taught the Hebrew Bible and the entire Old Testament is not contained in the Hebrew Bible that you probably are referring to, and I was taught to study and learn from the entire Bible and don't dismiss any part of it.

You have an active imagination about what you might find in The Bible, but there are no threats or fear-mongering to non believers.

If not for your fears, you'd probably enjoying reading and studying it.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

The Old Testament and the Hebrew Bible are one of the same. We stopped using Old Testament because that was a Christian description. I have taken many bible courses - I was in seminary for two years studying religion - and came out a better atheist than ever. Then I went to Israel as a young woman and gave up all notions of religion ever after. But I do understand the psychological comfort and community that religion offers. Sometimes I will go to a service to connect with my ancestors, but I am still a doubter.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> The Old Testament and the Hebrew Bible are one of the same. We stopped using Old Testament because that was a Christian description. I have taken many bible courses - I was in seminary for two years studying religion - and came out a better atheist than ever. Then I went to Israel as a young woman and gave up all notions of religion ever after. But I do understand the psychological comfort and community that religion offers. Sometimes I will go to a service to connect with my ancestors, but I am still a doubter.


How many books are in the Hebrew Bible you are referring to? I do not understand the meaning of your second sentence.

I'm sorry you are a doubter, but so was Thomas and he was able to turn it around. I have faith someday you might too, but you need faith.

Nothing wrong with doubt or questioning; how else could your questions be answered.

Perhaps you will, too, someday have a different understanding and faith or you just need better teachers. I'm not being scarcastic or funny; just honest.

I've walked the streets of Ephesus and felt the presence of those men of God who were there before me. I shall not outline my teachers or faith based training. :-D


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

The Christians called the first 5 books of Moses the Old Testament. The Jews more currently refer to it as The Hebrew Bible. 

Thanks for the suggestion but I just think I lack the genes to believe in any religion.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> The Christians called the first 5 books of Moses the Old Testament. The Jews more currently refer to it as The Hebrew Bible.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion but I just think I lack the genes to believe in any religion.


Nope; I've never heard any Christian state or believe that (the first five books = the Old Testament). You are mistaken; have been poorly informed, as I suspected.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Oh then inform me. What is the Old Testament ?

BTW, why must you become nasty? There is no call for it. We are having a civil conversation that is better without name calling and accusations.

Readers please note: Who is being nicer - The Christian or the Atheist?


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

From Wikipedia:

The Old Testament is the Christian term for the Hebrew Bible, a collection of religious writings by ancient Israelites[1] that form the first section of the Christian Bible, to which were added a second collection of writings referred to as the New Testament. The books included in the Old Testament (the Old Testament canon) varies markedly between Christian denominations; Protestants accept only the books of the official Jewish Hebrew Bible canon as their Old Testament but divide it into 39 books, while Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox, Coptic and Ethiopian churches accept a considerably larger collection of writings in their Old Testament canon.[2]

The Old Testament was compiled and edited by various men[3] over a period of centuries, with many scholars concluding that the Hebrew canon was solidified by about the 3rd century BC.[4][5]

The books can be broadly divided into several sections: 1) the first five books or Pentateuch (Torah), 2) the history books telling the history of the Israelites, from their conquest of Canaan to their defeat and exile in Babylon; 3) the poetic and "Wisdom" books dealing, in various forms, with questions of good and evil in the world; 4) and the books of the biblical prophets, warning of the consequences of turning away from God.


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

SQM said:


> The Old Testament and the Hebrew Bible are one of the same. We stopped using Old Testament because that was a Christian description. I have taken many bible courses - I was in seminary for two years studying religion - and came out a better atheist than ever. Then I went to Israel as a young woman and gave up all notions of religion ever after. But I do understand the psychological comfort and community that religion offers. Sometimes I will go to a service to connect with my ancestors, but I am still a doubter.


I had to laugh about after studying religion you came out a better atheist. That is exactly what happened to me. I was raised in an orthodox home, went to college and studied comparative religion and just gave up. Nothing made any sense. Then years later,. I studied Kabbalah. I loved the metaphysics of Kabbalah, but relapsed once again. I do believe in being a good, moral person. I also believe a lot of religions are based on similar principles.


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

SQM said:


> Oh then inform me. What is the Old Testament ?
> 
> BTW, why must you become nasty? There is no call for it. We are having a civil conversation that is better without name calling and accusations.
> 
> Readers please note: Who is being nicer - The Christian or the Atheist?


Well done Atheist!!!


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Janet does the "Twist and Squirm"


Perhaps you should educate yourself as to what Janet was referring.


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> The gross lie that Republicans have a war on woman...when it is the Democrats who have exploited women for votes and power. They care very little for women beyond that.


Too bad you are a woman. You vote against your own best interests.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Where I attend services we call the Five Books the Chumash. In English speaking countries the text has an English translation and usually has commentaries from scholars throughout the ages to try to explain the spirit as well as the literal translation. 

The scroll containing the Five Books, which is written by hand by scholarly scribes and contains no secular translation and no vowels, is called the Torah. One has to be very learned to be able to read directly from the Torah. 

Then we have a Tanach, an English text that describes the contents of the Chumash. And we have a text called the Talmud which is a compilation of discussions and comments by scholars throughout the ages trying to clarify the content. 

KPG, since you are so superlatively brilliant and so well educated, I look forward to seeing how you will refute whatever I say to have your brilliance and erudition dazzle the rest of us.


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

west coast kitty said:


> I agree that Judaism is not a race, but it is more than a religion. --
> "The Jewish People
> Another name for the Children of Israel. It is a reference to the Jews as a nation in the classical sense, meaning a group of people with a shared history and a sense of a group identity rather than a territorial and political entity. "
> http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/people.htm
> ...


I like the food and love preparing for the holidays. Does that help? I never considered myself one of the children of Israel. BTW any Jew that is messianic or converted is no longer a Jew. If they convert why would they continue with Jewish customs? Certainly Christmas would be important, not Hanukkah, they could still eat potato latkes. Does that make you a Jew? The High Holy Days would not mean anything. Maybe they would still support Israel as a nation, but the religious part should be gone. What is a Jewish identity? Food, history, philosophy, metaphysics?r I am not understanding this Jewish identity thing.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Where I attend services we call the Five Books the Chumash. In English speaking countries the text has an English translation and usually has commentaries from scholars throughout the ages to try to explain the spirit as well as the literal translation.
> 
> The scroll containing the Five Books, which is written by hand by scholarly scribes and contains no secular translation and no vowels, is called the Torah. One has to be very learned to be able to read directly from the Torah.
> 
> ...


Hmmm....might be a few minutes while she tries to get her Mr. Hyde back under control.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> Oh then inform me. What is the Old Testament ?
> 
> BTW, why must you become nasty? There is no call for it. We are having a civil conversation that is better without name calling and accusations.
> 
> Readers please note: Who is being nicer - The Christian or the Atheist?


My Bible's Old Testament consists of 39 books, always has always will.

What have I said that is nasty? I've not called you names nor made accusations. What are you talking about please?

You have told me what Christians believe, and I corrected your misconceptions.

Why are you asking for other readers to support you; are you trying to pick a fight and come out victorious?


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

damemary said:


> But how did you find the thread if you were just a knitter until 3 months ago? I'm curious.


I don't remember exactly...most likely it was listed in the morning email of new topics.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

TO KPN:

"have been poorly informed, as I suspected"

Am I being oversensitive? Would talk to someone face to face and say this? 

So easy to be unfriendly hiding behind an avatar and not identifying location.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

SQM said:


> TO KPN:
> 
> "have been poorly informed, as I suspected"
> 
> ...


Are you that sensitive? I doubt it. You emphatically informed me, a Christian, what I believe is the Old Testatment now didn't you?

You touted your scholarly credentials so I told you have been poorly informed.

Please explain to the readers and me how that makes me nasty and a name caller.

Would you have called me nasty and a name caller to my face for saying to you I suspected you were poorly informed? (once I learned that which I asked/you answered was, in fact, not the same Bible that was being discussed).

ETA: So rather than give me answers of how I was nasty and called you names, you log off. I guess you answered by your silence. Then too, everyone can read our brief public exchange and answer for themselves the questions you offered about who treated who politely.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

maysmom said:


> Dingleberry?! Calling me a name now?


Just talking to myself...as so indicated.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

The Old Testament prophecy fulfilled in the New Testament. So Jesus in the new testament was the prophecy from the Old Testament. There are 39 books in the Old Testament.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> The Old Testament prophecy fulfilled in the New Testament. So Jesus in the new testament was the prophecy from the Old Testament. There are 39 books in the Old Testament.


 :thumbup:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> The Old Testament prophecy fulfilled in the New Testament. So Jesus in the new testament was the prophecy from the Old Testament. There are 39 books in the Old Testament.


Not according to SQM. She stated Christians believe only the first five books in the Hebrew Bible equates to the entire Old Testament.

Then she told me I was nasty and a name caller for correcting her erroneous claim. Even more surprising, SQM says she learned such in Seminary. :shock:


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Off subject here:

West Coast Kitty is not to get involved in our Politic's

Designer1234 can and does

You were told you were taking over our sites.

On new site one of you own said the Right has taken over every site the left has started????
Would that be

WOW

Obama Care

A Garden of Friendship

DP&P

Who started these sites????

Also your friend told the right that we should stay off POV and LOLL and the left would stay off our site.
Funny how that has worked for the last 6 months I bet none on right has been on your site. Guess whom seems to feel it is necessary to come on DP&P????

Why must Gerslay have to explain why and how she came on this site? 
Considering how long she has been on KP which seems to be longer than any of you. But then with all your name changing seems you have not been on here long enough to even know what has happen before you started your rants and raids.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

ETA: So rather than give me answers of how I was nasty and called you names, you log off. I guess you answered by your silence. Then too, everyone can read our brief public exchange and answer for themselves the questions you offered about who treated who politely.'

I prefer to read and do other things than fight with Avatars. But I do check in when I get up. 

Okay you did not call me names nor have you ever said anything unkind on this thread. You are also very agreeable with postings. See how Christian I can be! I am turning the other cheek.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Thanks Yarnlady! I didn't mind the question though, otherwise I just wouldn't answer.


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> My Bible's Old Testament consists of 39 books, always has always will.
> 
> What have I said that is nasty? I've not called you names nor made accusations. What are you talking about please?
> 
> ...


What are the 39 books? Can you name a few?


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> The Old Testament prophecy fulfilled in the New Testament. So Jesus in the new testament was the prophecy from the Old Testament. There are 39 books in the Old Testament.


What are the 39 books, maybe we are talking about the same books, just calling it by different names.


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

rocky1991 said:


> What are the 39 books, maybe we are talking about the same books, just calling it by different names.


Sorry about the Format. these books look vaguely familiar to me, what about all you Jewish scholars?

Th
e
39
Bo
ok
s
of
th
e
O
ld
Tes
ta
me
nt
Barnes
Bible Charts
OLD
TES
T
AMENT

Genesis

Exodus

Le
v
iti
c
us

Numbers

Deuteronomy

Joshua

Judges

Ruth

1
Samuel

2
Samuel

E
c
clesiastes

Song
of
Solomon
 Isaiah

Jeremiah

Lamentations

Ezekiel

Daniel

Hosea
 Joel

Amos

1
Kings

2
Kings
 1
Chronicles
 2
Chronicles
 Ezra

Nehemiah

Esther

Job

Psalms

Proverbs

Obadiah

Jonah

Micah

Nahum

Habakkuk

Zephaniah

Haggai

Zechariah

Malachi
PDF created
w
ith FinePrint pd
f
Factor
y
Pro trial
v
ersion
http://www.fineprint.com


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

rocky1991 said:


> What are the 39 books, maybe we are talking about the same books, just calling it by different names.


Genesis - Exodus - Leviticus - Numbers - Deuteronomy

Joshua - Judges - Ruth - 1 Samuel - 2 Samuel - 1 Kings - 2 Kings - 1 Chronicles - 2 Chronicles - Ezra - Nehemiah - Esther

Job - Psalms - Proverbs - Ecclesiastes - Song of Songs

Isaiah - Jeremiah - Lamentations - Ezekiel - Daniel

Hosea - Joel - Amos - Obadiah - Jonah - Micah - Nahum - Habakkuk - Zephaniah - Haggai - Zechariah - Malachi


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## rocky1991 (May 8, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Genesis - Exodus - Leviticus - Numbers - Deuteronomy
> 
> Joshua - Judges - Ruth - 1 Samuel - 2 Samuel - 1 Kings - 2 Kings - 1 Chronicles - 2 Chronicles - Ezra - Nehemiah - Esther
> 
> ...


They are the same I grew up with in the Hebrew Bible.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

rocky1991 said:


> They are the same I grew up with in the Hebrew Bible.


 :thumbup:


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

rocky1991 said:


> What are the 39 books, maybe we are talking about the same books, just calling it by different names.


I think I was CindyS who posted the information that the old testament is the 5 books, but that it is broken up further in the Christian Bible to equal 39 books. I think it would be like the "compilation" of the Wicked book and the sequel Son of a Witch that came as one book,yet they are also broken up and sold as two individual book. Same thing just different form.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Lkholcomb said:


> I think I was CindyS who posted the information that the old testament is the 5 books, but that it is broken up further in the Christian Bible to equal 39 books. I think it would be like the "compilation" of the Wicked book and the sequel Son of a Witch that came as one book,yet they are also broken up and sold as two individual book. Same thing just different form.


No SQM made that error. (I read so much fiction that I cannot keep it all straight.) I checked my Hebrew Bible Study text and it pretty much agrees with the list that was posted above only in a different order. My text ends with two Chronicles of which I am not familiar.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Here is the info from Wikipedia again

The Old Testament is the Christian term for the Hebrew Bible, a collection of religious writings by ancient Israelites[1] that form the first section of the Christian Bible, to which were added a second collection of writings referred to as the New Testament. The books included in the Old Testament (the Old Testament canon) varies markedly between Christian denominations; Protestants accept only the books of the official Jewish Hebrew Bible canon as their Old Testament but divide it into 39 books, while Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox, Coptic and Ethiopian churches accept a considerably larger collection of writings in their Old Testament canon.[2]

The Old Testament was compiled and edited by various men[3] over a period of centuries, with many scholars concluding that the Hebrew canon was solidified by about the 3rd century BC.[4][5]

The books can be broadly divided into several sections: 1) the first five books or Pentateuch (Torah), 2) the history books telling the history of the Israelites, from their conquest of Canaan to their defeat and exile in Babylon; 3) the poetic and "Wisdom" books dealing, in various forms, with questions of good and evil in the world; 4) and the books of the biblical prophets, warning of the consequences of turning away from God.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

The Nation of Israel split into two Kingdoms. 
Chronicles I & II is the historical record of the kingdom of Judea, in the south. Kings I & II is the record of the kingdom of Israel, in the north.

It would be as if the Civil War was presented in two books, the North and the South, with each book describing the same (or almost the same) events but from different perspectives.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Over the last week I have done enough Bible study on this thread so that I can either skip church for a month or two, or I can stage a coup and take over my church!!!


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Over the last week I have done enough Bible study on this thread so that I can either skip church for a month or two, or I can stage a coup and take over my church!!!


 We can learn from each other.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> We can learn from each other.


Of course


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

rocky1991 said:


> What are the 39 books, maybe we are talking about the same books, just calling it by different names.


It seems to me that any Christians who bother to reply just say 39 books. I am guessing that they know what they are.
I am also guessing that you know from talking to people, as I do, that most Christians don't know how many books are in the Old Testament of The Holy Bible, for that matter, they don't know how many books are in the New Testament. 
They don't know who wrote the Gospels, they don't know that the Roman Catholic Church manipulated which gospels were included, they don't know that the Crusades were all political. 
They know who got voted off last week's Survivor show, though.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> There have been several writers who reference Atlantis, yet it does not make it fact. Without evidence (like the actual continent or the writings AT THE TIME from a source like the roman guards or Pilate himself to Rome, then it is not fact)


Since Josephus hadn't been born yet at the time of Jesus's crucifixion, he couldn't have known anything firsthand. He also seems to have been an opportunist, changing his allegiance any time he saw trouble coming. Such men are rarely truthful.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Genesis - Exodus - Leviticus - Numbers - Deuteronomy
> 
> Joshua - Judges - Ruth - 1 Samuel - 2 Samuel - 1 Kings - 2 Kings - 1 Chronicles - 2 Chronicles - Ezra - Nehemiah - Esther
> 
> ...


The books are all there, but the order is different in the Hebrew Bible.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> The books are all there, but the order is different in the Hebrew Bible.


Thanks I didn't know that.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for the blessing.



Janet Cooke said:


> I'm hoping that in a few months she will have forgotten all about you.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Interesting life.



SQM said:


> The Old Testament and the Hebrew Bible are one of the same. We stopped using Old Testament because that was a Christian description. I have taken many bible courses - I was in seminary for two years studying religion - and came out a better atheist than ever. Then I went to Israel as a young woman and gave up all notions of religion ever after. But I do understand the psychological comfort and community that religion offers. Sometimes I will go to a service to connect with my ancestors, but I am still a doubter.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think you were being courted by KPG .... until you showed signs of independent thought. She/he/it prefers people who will applaud her rantings and tell everyone how wonderful she is.

There is no discussion with her. If there is no obeisance to her, you're called every name she can think of at the moment. I much prefer discussion with open minds of all beliefs.

The Athiest is much nicer in this case than the Christian IMHO.



SQM said:


> Oh then inform me. What is the Old Testament ?
> 
> BTW, why must you become nasty? There is no call for it. We are having a civil conversation that is better without name calling and accusations.
> 
> Readers please note: Who is being nicer - The Christian or the Atheist?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I believe much more in being a good, moral person than in any religion I know.



rocky1991 said:


> I had to laugh about after studying religion you came out a better atheist. That is exactly what happened to me. I was raised in an orthodox home, went to college and studied comparative religion and just gave up. Nothing made any sense. Then years later,. I studied Kabbalah. I loved the metaphysics of Kabbalah, but relapsed once again. I do believe in being a good, moral person. I also believe a lot of religions are based on similar principles.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Much like the folks just getting by, who vote GOP because they want to be rich.



rocky1991 said:


> Too bad you are a woman. You vote against your own best interests.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Where I attend services we call the Five Books the Chumash. In English speaking countries the text has an English translation and usually has commentaries from scholars throughout the ages to try to explain the spirit as well as the literal translation.
> 
> The scroll containing the Five Books, which is written by hand by scholarly scribes and contains no secular translation and no vowels, is called the Torah. One has to be very learned to be able to read directly from the Torah.
> 
> ...


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:<<<whispering..... I wonder if she's scurrying for facts or if she'll just try to bluff it. Stay tuned.>>>>>>


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

damemary said:


> Much like the folks just getting by, who vote GOP because they want to be rich.


Exactly the same.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Thanks for the kind words Dame. But I see my elder life as hum-drum. I also trained as a psychic - medium - I am pretty good at the paranormal but began to find it all tedious. I only use my abilities now to know when to run for a New York City bus or not, or to determine how long I will wait for a subway. Those on the other side rarely had anything more interesting to say than the conservatives here. I do believe in an Invisible World because I have had many inexplicable experiences but I am basically a secular humanist. PS. I am just an ordinary, regular person who worked as a reading/special ed teacher for most of my career but for some reason had some extraordinary experiences. I sometimes joke that I don't believe in god but she believes in me.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

rocky1991 said:


> I like the food and love preparing for the holidays. Does that help? I never considered myself one of the children of Israel. BTW any Jew that is messianic or converted is no longer a Jew. If they convert why would they continue with Jewish customs? Certainly Christmas would be important, not Hanukkah, they could still eat potato latkes. Does that make you a Jew? The High Holy Days would not mean anything. Maybe they would still support Israel as a nation, but the religious part should be gone. What is a Jewish identity? Food, history, philosophy, metaphysics?r I am not understanding this Jewish identity thing.


<<<<whispering....only wannabes understand the Jewish identity thing. It's also useful to those whose 'best friends are Jewish. IMHO.>>>>>>>


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> Over the last week I have done enough Bible study on this thread so that I can either skip church for a month or two, or I can stage a coup and take over my church!!!


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Let us know what you decide.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's always good to know she's watching over you.



SQM said:


> Thanks for the kind words Dame. But I see my elder life as hum-drum. I also trained as a psychic - medium - I am pretty good at the paranormal but began to find it all tedious. I only use my abilities now to know when to run for a New York City bus or not, or to determine how long I will wait for a subway. Those on the other side rarely had anything more interesting to say than the conservatives here. I do believe in an Invisible World because I have had many inexplicable experiences but I am basically a secular humanist. PS. I am just an ordinary, regular person who worked as a reading/special ed teacher for most of my career but for some reason had some extraordinary experiences. I sometimes joke that I don't believe in god but she believes in me.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

I think you are a sweetie, Dame. And you are also hilarious.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You're a good audience. I appreciate your outlook. Post away.



SQM said:


> I think you are a sweetie, Dame. And you are also hilarious.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

damemary said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Let us know what you decide.


At the moment I am leaning towards the coup, so I can dump the choir director who drives me nuts

:wink:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Where I attend services we call the Five Books the Chumash. In English speaking countries the text has an English translation and usually has commentaries from scholars throughout the ages to try to explain the spirit as well as the literal translation.
> 
> The scroll containing the Five Books, which is written by hand by scholarly scribes and contains no secular translation and no vowels, is called the Torah. One has to be very learned to be able to read directly from the Torah.
> 
> ...


One small correction, Marilyn, even though I'm not the one you challenged. The Tanach, an acronym formed from the the letters pronounced T, N, and Ch (that sound only Scotsmen and Jews can make), is the entire Hebrew Bible; it's often available with English translation on facing pages.

The T stands for Torah, the Five Books of Moses.

The N stands for Nevi'im, which means "prophets" - these books are, in order (here I'm copying and pasting): Joshua, Judges, Samuel (I & II; regarded as one book), 
Kings (I & II; ditto), Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and (all in one book, The Twelve Prophets: a. Hosea, b. Joel, c. Amos, d. Obadiah, e. Jonah, f. Micah, g. Nahum, h. Habakkuk, i. Zephaniah, j. Haggai, k. Zechariah, and l. Malachi. (Total 8 books)

The Ch is for Ketuvim, which means "writings"; these are Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah (one book), and Chronicles (I & II, one book). (Total 11 books)

I put all this down to show the order and the count, which is 24, not 39.

Sorry it wasn't really small, Marilyn, but you had everything else correct, and now it's perfect.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> At the moment I am leaning towards the coup, so I can dump the choir director who drives me nuts
> 
> :wink:


We're ready to support you, Cindy; we can bring slide whistles to drive the choir director nuts. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Since Josephus hadn't been born yet at the time of Jesus's crucifixion, he couldn't have known anything firsthand. He also seems to have been an opportunist, changing his allegiance any time he saw trouble coming. Such men are rarely truthful.


Yes, I have take all writings not written at the time of the incidence with a grain of salt. If you look at other stories, other religious myths, or anything that is recorded after the fact it seems to be further and further from what actually, accurately happened.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> We're ready to support you, Cindy; we can bring slide whistles to drive the choir director nuts. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


Good morning Poor Purl, bring whatever you need, as long as you are not dancing around during the hymns like the current character!!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Good morning Poor Purl, bring whatever you need, as long as you are not dancing around during the hymns like the current character!!


You don't have to worry about dancing. I might hum a little, tap my feet. The choir master really dances around during hymns?


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You don't have to worry about dancing. I might hum a little, tap my feet. The choir master really dances around during hymns?


The nice way to put it is that he is very into the music and very very animated.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You could dump the choir director in the coup. Great plan. We'll both feel so much better.

(Note: this is a joke.)



Cindy S said:


> At the moment I am leaning towards the coup, so I can dump the choir director who drives me nuts
> 
> :wink:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We shall all be models of decorum, except for occasional peals of laughter.



Cindy S said:


> Good morning Poor Purl, bring whatever you need, as long as you are not dancing around during the hymns like the current character!!


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

damemary said:


> We shall all be models of decorum, except for occasional peals of laughter.


I doubt the peals of laughter would be occasional, more like you would be rolling on the floor. My DH calls him the Michael Jackson of religious celebration!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I can hardly wait to see. All together.



Cindy S said:


> I doubt the peals of laughter would be occasional, more like you would be rolling on the floor. My DH calls him the Michael Jackson of religious celebration!


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Thanks, Poor Purl, for clarifying and expanding. My DH is much more the scholar than I am, and I am still learning.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Sometimes the musician in a choir director or a cantor takes over an otherwise sensible person. During Kol Nidre our cantor waxes so operatic my DH brings ear plugs to services! The man does have a gorgeous voice, but at full size it needs a room twice as large as our sanctuary.


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Sometimes the musician in a choir director or a cantor takes over an otherwise sensible person. During Kol Nidre our cantor waxes so operatic my DH brings ear plugs to services! The man does have a gorgeous voice, but at full size it needs a room twice as large as our sanctuary.


I'm not sure sensible is a word I would apply to him!! He is definitely an attention hog.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

damemary said:


> I can hardly wait to see. All together.


That all together reminded me of this one...


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> So that explains why the current writers of history books can get events so wrong.


I haven't noticed any wildly inaccurate passages in my son's history books. What events are you talking about?


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I haven't noticed any wildly inaccurate passages in my son's history books. What events are you talking about?


I think it is Joey's turn to play court jester.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> I think it is Joey's turn to play court jester.


Yes, with bells jingling. We already know she can speak in riddles--wonder if she turns somersaults as well?


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

joeysomma said:


> Either you don't know history or you have not read the books.
> 
> Even a History professor with a PHD, stated on KP that the USA is "Democratic Republic" when we are a "Constitutional Republic."
> 
> The progressives started re-writing history to their way of thinking in the 1950's. If you compare the history books written before 1950 and those of today, you would wonder if we are still living in the same country.


Thanks for upping my standards, now up yours.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Either you don't know history or you have not read the books.
> 
> Even a History professor with a PHD, stated on KP that the USA is "Democratic Republic" when we are a "Constitutional Republic."
> 
> The progressives started re-writing history to their way of thinking in the 1950's. If you compare the history books written before 1950 and those of today, you would wonder if we are still living in the same country.


Obviously she's not only KPG's Fool but a contortionist as well. Impressive.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Obviously she's not only KPG's Fool but a contortionist as well. Impressive.


Her favorite game seems to be semantics.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Her favorite game seems to be semantics.


The Greeks pioneered that field of study, didn't they? Maybe she'll make like Demosthenes and stuff her mouth full of pebbles.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> The Greeks pioneered that field of study, didn't they? Maybe she'll make like Demosthenes and stuff her mouth full of pebbles.


Yup, she could suck 'em, keep her mouth from going dry as she prances in her jester footwear.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Yup, she could suck 'em, keep her mouth from going dry as she prances in her jester footwear.


Touche, Janet!

:thumbup:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl - I am kvelling over your scholarship! What a fine mind you have.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> I doubt the peals of laughter would be occasional, more like you would be rolling on the floor. My DH calls him the Michael Jackson of religious celebration!


He sounds like fun. Why do you want to get rid of him?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Sometimes the musician in a choir director or a cantor takes over an otherwise sensible person. During Kol Nidre our cantor waxes so operatic my DH brings ear plugs to services! The man does have a gorgeous voice, but at full size it needs a room twice as large as our sanctuary.


As the only Sinatra fan in a family of cantorial lovers, I'd be insane. I hope those are good earplugs.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> That all together reminded me of this one...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Thanks, Poor Purl, for clarifying and expanding. My DH is much more the scholar than I am, and I am still learning.


Truthfully, Marilyn, I didn't know whether I should do it. But I wanted to set things straight because so few KPers know what Judaism is about. I usually love your messages and wouldn't want to change them in the slightest. (I'm currently auditing a class on biblical narratology, whatever that is, so it's often on the tip of my mind.)


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> I have not heard that song in eons. Yet I was able to sing along. Thanks for the memory. How did it pop into your mind?


Just the Dame's reference to all together (now, 1 2 3).

What can I tell you, I can't remember last night's dinner, but a song from when I was 9 yo... there it is.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> That all together reminded me of this one...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> So that explains why the current writers of history books can get events so wrong.


It would depend on what kind of research they've done. These days there are often copy editors to check fact, and referees to straighten things out. I don't think Josephus ever submitted his manuscripts to any of those.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Poor Purl - I am kvelling over your scholarship! What a fine mind you have.


That didn't take any kind of mind, only Wikipedia and the ability to cut and paste.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I have not heard that song in eons. Yet I was able to sing along. Thanks for the memory. How did it pop into your mind?


That's what happened to me, only I wasn't thankful for it.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Precious Pearl - I thought you were reciting from your knowledge base. Still you and Cooke are great researchers. I guess I was still too young to have many bad memories re; that particular song. A lot of other songs put me in a bad mood so I prefer not to listen to music and all - the beauty of silence and my own warped mind.


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Truthfully, Marilyn, I didn't know whether I should do it. But I wanted to set things straight because so few KPers know what Judaism is about. I usually love your messages and wouldn't want to change them in the slightest. (I'm currently auditing a class on biblical narratology, whatever that is, so it's often on the tip of my mind.)


Thank you from me, too, Poor Purl. I was thinking about doing that response but was reading through to the end (page 87) to see what anyone else had posted about that. The only additional difference is that sometimes the verses and chapters may be divided in slightly different places. There are one or two places where chapters got divided into chapters a few verses apart from where the other religion divided them, and in Psalms the little "a song for the Sabbath day" and "a psalm of David" are the first verse of the psalm in Jewish translations, but show up as more of a subtitle, if at all, in Christian translations. Another difference is that Christians and Jews all agree that the Ten Commandments show up in Exodus 20. Okay, now divide those verses into the actual Ten Commandments. This will differ among Jews, Catholics, and Protestants, and I don't know about the Eastern Christians.
The important concept is that the Hebrew Bible and the Christian "Old Testament" are essentially the same.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Thanks, Poor Purl, for clarifying and expanding. My DH is much more the scholar than I am, and I am still learning.


All the smart people are still learning.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And I never heard this one until now. Thanks. Education rising.



Janet Cooke said:


> That all together reminded me of this one...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> Thanks for upping my standards, now up yours.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Good one Janet.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It's actually more popular than video games around here. Wish they'd go play somewhere else.



Janet Cooke said:


> Her favorite game seems to be semantics.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> Yup, she could suck 'em, keep her mouth from going dry as she prances in her jester footwear.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Janet you have me ROFL.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Camacho said:


> Thank you from me, too, Poor Purl. I was thinking about doing that response but was reading through to the end (page 87) to see what anyone else had posted about that. The only additional difference is that sometimes the verses and chapters may be divided in slightly different places. There are one or two places where chapters got divided into chapters a few verses apart from where the other religion divided them, and in Psalms the little "a song for the Sabbath day" and "a psalm of David" are the first verse of the psalm in Jewish translations, but show up as more of a subtitle, if at all, in Christian translations. Another difference is that Christians and Jews all agree that the Ten Commandments show up in Exodus 20. Okay, now divide those verses into the actual Ten Commandments. This will differ among Jews, Catholics, and Protestants, and I don't know about the Eastern Christians.
> The important concept is that the Hebrew Bible and the Christian "Old Testament" are essentially the same.


Camacho, there's one other difference that I've noticed: The Five Books are each divided into named sections, and these are then divided into chapter and verse. I don't think the section names occur in the Christian OT. A named section is called a Parsha in Hebrew, and it's an entire parsha that's read during services. A chapter is a Perek and a verse is a Passuk.

You're right about the way the Psalms are treated. In Jewish services, they say aloud, as part of the reading, "Psalm of David," rather than treat it has a heading.

And, yes, the commandments break differently. Now I need to find out why this discussion is going on in War on Women.

But isn't it interesting to see how many permutations can be made out of the same piece of writing? And how many different conclusions they can lead to?


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Thanks for upping my standards, now up yours.


Subtle! Sense of humor after my own heart.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

And why do so many people proclaim that they have the one possible truth derived from reading the Bible????????



Poor Purl said:


> Camacho, there's one other difference that I've noticed: The Five Books are each divided into named sections, and these are then divided into chapter and verse. I don't think the section names occur in the Christian OT. A named section is called a Parsha in Hebrew, and it's an entire parsha that's read during services. A chapter is a Perek and a verse is a Passuk.
> 
> You're right about the way the Psalms are treated. In Jewish services, they say aloud, as part of the reading, "Psalm of David," rather than treat it has a heading.
> 
> ...


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## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> He sounds like fun. Why do you want to get rid of him?


Oh I don't know, must be the flamboyant suits and the prancing up and down that is so distracting!!! Think Liberace.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I haven't noticed any wildly inaccurate passages in my son's history books. What events are you talking about?


I was wondering too. But if I take something as "fact" I often look up references before proudly pronouncing it as such. I can be a geek that way. In fact my son came home from school one day talking about Roman slaves and how they were "free". I actually was asking him for references, lol. I think he may have misunderstood that they weren't free when they were slaves but could earn or be given their freedom.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm with you Cindy. Not my cup of tea.



Cindy S said:


> Oh I don't know, must be the flamboyant suits and the prancing up and down that is so distracting!!! Think Liberace.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> That's what happened to me, only I wasn't thankful for it.


Sinatra, it ain't.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Janet Cooke said:


> Thanks for upping my standards, now up yours.


I think that there could be a confusion on some people's part that what a history professor says (if they did indeed say it) does not always mean it is in a history book either. I would be interested to see the history book, with the page noted, that actually says what she stated. But of course that's just me.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Lkholcomb said:


> I was wondering too. But if I take something as "fact" I often look up references before proudly pronouncing it as such. I can be a geek that way. In fact my son came home from school one day talking about Roman slaves and how they were "free". I actually was asking him for references, lol. I think he may have misunderstood that they weren't free when they were slaves but could earn or be given their freedom.


Didn't I see someone the other day proclaim that a slave could be a mistress?
It seems to me by definition a mistress would be a voluntary position. 
The third listing makes that assertion particularly offensive.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Mistress


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Janet Cooke said:


> Didn't I see someone the other day proclaim that a slave could be a mistress?
> It seems to me by definition a mistress would be a voluntary position.
> The third listing makes that assertion particularly offensive.
> 
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Mistress


Yes, I saw that too. I have never heard a sex slave or victim in the sex industry ever being described as a "mistress". I think that it may be a way to make Abraham's actions seem to be less like rape and more like a nice polygamist.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> I think that there could be a confusion on some people's part that what a history professor says (if they did indeed say it) does not always mean it is in a history book either. I would be interested to see the history book, with the page noted, that actually says what she stated. But of course that's just me.


I actually hoped she'd have something interesting to say as well. But no--she's like a Chatty Doll with a broken mechanism. Yank the string and be sorry you did--always the same line about the US being a Constitutional Republic.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> And why do so many people proclaim that they have the one possible truth derived from reading the Bible????????


To each her own truth. I don't think they realize that they're not always talking about the same thing.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Oh I don't know, must be the flamboyant suits and the prancing up and down that is so distracting!!! Think Liberace.


A combination of Michael Jackson and Liberace, Wow! I can see how that would be annoying.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Didn't I see someone the other day proclaim that a slave could be a mistress?
> It seems to me by definition a mistress would be a voluntary position.
> The third listing makes that assertion particularly offensive.
> 
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Mistress


This came from a PG dictionary. It omits one definition of "mistress," as in "Sally Hemings was Jefferson's mistress."


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

maysmom said:


> Sounds like a conservative Republican to me!!


Agreed. Sanger was "liberal" in many ways, but she did have this bent of "eugenics" that was more in line with conservatives of the time.

It think in fact, it was her effort to bring the "conservatives" over to her side of the issue. The argument was a way to become "bi-partisan" so to speak. The eugenics argument was a way for her to proverbially "reach across the aisle".


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Camacho, there's one other difference that I've noticed: The Five Books are each divided into named sections, and these are then divided into chapter and verse. I don't think the section names occur in the Christian OT. A named section is called a Parsha in Hebrew, and it's an entire parsha that's read during services. A chapter is a Perek and a verse is a Passuk.
> 
> You're right about the way the Psalms are treated. In Jewish services, they say aloud, as part of the reading, "Psalm of David," rather than treat it has a heading.
> 
> ...


This whole subject is thoroughly fascinating.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Tho I am posting in the wrong place, I would like to add that the Jewish and Christian 10 Commandments seem to differ. The Catholics took out worshipping idols. Correct me if I am wrong.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> Tho I am posting in the wrong place, I would like to add that the Jewish and Christian 10 Commandments seem to differ. The Catholics took out worshipping idols. Correct me if I am wrong.


I'm not sure how the Jewish Commandments read, but the Catholic and Protestant ones differ:

From CatholicBible 101:

CATHOLIC
1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
4. Honor your father and your mother
5. You shall not kill
6. You shall not commit adultery
7. You shall not steal
8. You shall not bear false witness
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods

In the Protestant Churches, they are as follows, with the differences highlighted:

1. You shall have no other gods but me.
2. * You shall not make unto you any graven images *
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain
4. You shall remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
5. Honor your mother and father
6. You shall not * murder *
7. You shall not commit adultery
8. You shall not steal
9. You shall not bear false witness
10. *You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor *


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> Tho I am posting in the wrong place, I would like to add that the Jewish and Christian 10 Commandments seem to differ. The Catholics took out worshipping idols. Correct me if I am wrong.


It has been a long time, but, I don't think so. It's no graven images. My edit doesnt want to work this very minute. 
Actually, rule #2

Oops, that was those darned people Luther influenced.

The Roman Catholics seem to have combined 1 and 2.

It would seem that Protestants can covet other people's spouses.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

yeah - it was the graven images that were missing in the Catholic one but is certainly there in the Hebrew one and very important. How can the 10 Commandments be changed if, as the story goes, they originally came from Moses? 

Actually, since throughout history, some religions have dealt quite poorly toward women, I think this is an okay place for a religious discussion.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> yeah - it was the graven images that were missing in the Catholic one but is certainly there in the Hebrew one and very important. How can the 10 Commandments be changed if, as the story goes, they originally came from Moses?
> 
> Actually, since throughout history, some religions have dealt quite poorly toward women, I think this is an okay place for a religious discussion.


Here here! I find religious discussions fascinating and never take offense (as long as the tighty righties keep away, of course).

Here's the Catholic rational for eliminating the graven image commandment:

The protestants list forbids any graven images whatsoever, which is an extra commandment when compared to the Catholic listing, but this isnt adhered to in a lot of protestant churches, which have crosses and stained glass windows of biblical events. It also wasnt adhered to by God, who told the Israelites to put graven images of 2 angels on top of the ark of the covenant, which carried the Ten Commandments, who told Solomon to put graven images of cherubs and palm trees in his temple, and who told the Israelites in the desert to make a graven image of a bronze serpent, so that the Israelites who looked upon it (not worshipped it) would be healed. The protestant commandment to not make any graven images whatsoever does not take into account the entire paragraph, which includes the prohibition against worshipping the graven image. The key here is that God didnt want any more golden calf incidents, where the people actually believed that the graven image of the golden calf (an Egyptian god) was a god itself. (An interesting observation is that there is a statue of a bull on Wall Street in New York City, where a lot of people worship money and wealth.) No Catholics actually believe that a plaster and paint statue of Jesus or Mary is a god and worship it; they only believe in what it represents, like when you look at a picture of your kids in your wallet. The image that it puts into your mind is that of your kids, and usually brings back fond memories; it doesnt mean that you believe the photo in your wallet is actually your kid. (Catholic Bible 101)


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Tho I am posting in the wrong place, I would like to add that the Jewish and Christian 10 Commandments seem to differ. The Catholics took out worshipping idols. Correct me if I am wrong.


You seem to be right. The Jewish #1 is missing from the Protestant; in the Catholic it's combined with #2. Catholics also break up the coveting into #9 - neighbor's wife and #10 - neighbor's goods. You can see them all here: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2007/03/Chart-Comparing-The-Ten-Commandments.aspx


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> It has been a long time, but, I don't think so. It's no graven images. My edit doesnt want to work this very minute.
> Actually, rule #2
> 
> Oops, that was those darned people Luther influenced.
> ...


But not their asses. Or their oxen.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> yeah - it was the graven images that were missing in the Catholic one but is certainly there in the Hebrew one and very important. How can the 10 Commandments be changed if, as the story goes, they originally came from Moses?
> 
> Actually, since throughout history, some religions have dealt quite poorly toward women, I think this is an okay place for a religious discussion.


and that may be how we got here.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> But not their asses. Or their oxen.


I won't say it, I won't.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> But not their asses. Or their oxen.


Maybe the little lady comes under the heading of possessions.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> yeah - it was the graven images that were missing in the Catholic one but is certainly there in the Hebrew one and very important. How can the 10 Commandments be changed if, as the story goes, they originally came from Moses?
> 
> Actually, since throughout history, some religions have dealt quite poorly toward women, I think this is an okay place for a religious discussion.


Here, for comparison purposes.

First Commandment (Exodus 20:2): I am the Lord Your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Second Commandment (Exodus 20:3-6): You shall have no other gods beside Me. You shall not make for yourself any graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them, for I, the Lord Your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Third Commandment (Exodus 20:7): You shall not take the name of the Lord Your God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that takes His name in vain.

Fourth Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11): Remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a Sabbath unto the Lord Your God, in it you shall not do any manner of work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your man-servant, nor your maid-servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day. Wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy.

Fifth Commandment (Exodus 20:12): Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord God gives you.

Sixth Commandment (Exodus 20:13): You shall not murder.

Seventh Commandment (Exodus 20:13): You shall not commit adultery.

Eighth Commandment (Exodus 20:13): You shall not steal.

Ninth Commandment (Exodus 20:13): You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Tenth Commandment (Exodus 20:14):You shall not covet your neighbor's house, nor his wife, his man-servant, his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is your neighbor's.

How they got changed is a whole different story.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Here here! I find religious discussions fascinating and never take offense (as long as the tighty righties keep away, of course).
> 
> Here's the Catholic rational for eliminating the graven image commandment:
> 
> The protestants list forbids any graven images whatsoever, which is an extra commandment when compared to the Catholic listing, but this isnt adhered to in a lot of protestant churches, which have crosses and stained glass windows of biblical events. It also wasnt adhered to by God, who told the Israelites to put graven images of 2 angels on top of the ark of the covenant, which carried the Ten Commandments, who told Solomon to put graven images of cherubs and palm trees in his temple, and who told the Israelites in the desert to make a graven image of a bronze serpent, so that the Israelites who looked upon it (not worshipped it) would be healed. The protestant commandment to not make any graven images whatsoever does not take into account the entire paragraph, which includes the prohibition against worshipping the graven image. The key here is that God didnt want any more golden calf incidents, where the people actually believed that the graven image of the golden calf (an Egyptian god) was a god itself. (An interesting observation is that there is a statue of a bull on Wall Street in New York City, where a lot of people worship money and wealth.) No Catholics actually believe that a plaster and paint statue of Jesus or Mary is a god and worship it; they only believe in what it represents, like when you look at a picture of your kids in your wallet. The image that it puts into your mind is that of your kids, and usually brings back fond memories; it doesnt mean that you believe the photo in your wallet is actually your kid. (Catholic Bible 101)


People can enjoy beauty they cannot worship it.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm not sure how the Jewish Commandments read, but the Catholic and Protestant ones differ:
> 
> From the Jewish Virtual Library:
> 
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Here here! I find religious discussions fascinating and never take offense (as long as the tighty righties keep away, of course).
> 
> Here's the Catholic rational for eliminating the graven image commandment:
> 
> The protestants list forbids any graven images whatsoever, which is an extra commandment when compared to the Catholic listing, but this isnt adhered to in a lot of protestant churches, which have crosses and stained glass windows of biblical events. It also wasnt adhered to by God, who told the Israelites to put graven images of 2 angels on top of the ark of the covenant, which carried the Ten Commandments, who told Solomon to put graven images of cherubs and palm trees in his temple, and who told the Israelites in the desert to make a graven image of a bronze serpent, so that the Israelites who looked upon it (not worshipped it) would be healed. The protestant commandment to not make any graven images whatsoever does not take into account the entire paragraph, which includes the prohibition against worshipping the graven image. The key here is that God didnt want any more golden calf incidents, where the people actually believed that the graven image of the golden calf (an Egyptian god) was a god itself. (An interesting observation is that there is a statue of a bull on Wall Street in New York City, where a lot of people worship money and wealth.) No Catholics actually believe that a plaster and paint statue of Jesus or Mary is a god and worship it; they only believe in what it represents, like when you look at a picture of your kids in your wallet. The image that it puts into your mind is that of your kids, and usually brings back fond memories; it doesnt mean that you believe the photo in your wallet is actually your kid. (Catholic Bible 101)


Come on, Susan, do you really think they'll stay out of this? LTL will correct anything you might say about Catholics, and the others will correct everything else. I didn't know about the serpent, but I know about the Wall St. bull and how it's worshiped by everyone, no matter what their religion. There's a video of someone yarn-bombing that bull.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> Agreed. Sanger was "liberal" in many ways, but she did have this bent of "eugenics" that was more in line with conservatives of the time.
> 
> It think in fact, it was her effort to bring the "conservatives" over to her side of the issue. The argument was a way to become "bi-partisan" so to speak. The eugenics argument was a way for her to proverbially "reach across the aisle".


You're mistaken on this one, VL. Margaret Sanger was an active worker for the Socialist Party...her NYC apartment was a gathering place where liberals, anarchists, Socialists and Wobblies (members of the Industrial Workers of the World) could meet. Not only did she define herself as a 'Socialist' but also she was at her core a 'Racist'. History will eventually prove her to be worse than Hitler who formulated many of his 'cleansing programs' on her ideas.

If you have evidence that she was 'reaching across the aisle to include conservatives' please post it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> I won't say it, I won't.


I said it for you.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> You're mistaken on this one, VL. Margaret Sanger was an active worker for the Socialist Party...her NYC apartment was a gathering place where liberals, anarchists, Socialists and Wobblies (members of the Industrial Workers of the World) could meet. Not only did she define herself as a 'Socialist' but also she was at her core a 'Racist'. History will eventually prove her to be worse than Hitler who formulated many of his 'cleansing programs' on her ideas.
> 
> If you have evidence that she was 'reaching across the aisle to include conservatives' please post it.


She is dead, who gives a roaring bleep?


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I said it for you.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> People can enjoy beauty they cannot worship it.


To be honest I'm not quite sure what realm those Catholic statues and holy cards fall. They certainly aren't miniature gods to be worshipped, but I can't say the pictures on the cards are "just like photos of your children". They have to be treated respectfully--dusted at regular intervals, not scattered on the floor etc etc. Kind of like how a Bible is supposed to be treated. Using the prayer cards for bookmarks never appealed to me personally, even though I was encouraged to as a child. It felt really odd (still does) to snap a book closed on the face of the Virgin Mary.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Come on, Susan, do you really think they'll stay out of this? LTL will correct anything you might say about Catholics, and the others will correct everything else. I didn't know about the serpent, but I know about the Wall St. bull and how it's worshiped by everyone, no matter what their religion. There's a video of someone yarn-bombing that bull.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> This came from a PG dictionary. It omits one definition of "mistress," as in "Sally Hemings was Jefferson's mistress."


But Sally Hemmings was freed, or at least offered that chance by Jefferson right? I know for sure she was free after his death, but I can't remember if he gave her the freedom before or in his will.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> True, true *sigh*. It's too bad that some folks (like LTL) gets PERSONALLY offended if anyone disagrees with their religious views or dares to question some aspect or other. But I guess ultra-ultras come in all denominations.


The funniest part for me is that all anyone says is that she thinks differently and nobody knows for sure. What is to get ticked off about?
Heck, how many people agree with me that reincarnation is the way life and death and progession works? And who cares if anyone does? 
Someone may be right, some are definitely wrong, and we could ALL be wrong.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Her ultimate freedom is immaterial. Was she free to spurn his sexual advances? Doubtful.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> Her ultimate freedom is immaterial. Was she free to spurn his sexual advances? Doubtful.


Exactly, and of course not. She was a fricken slave.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Janet Cooke said:


> Maybe the little lady comes under the heading of possessions.


Yes, what I was taught was that it did include the wives.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Lkholcomb said:


> But Sally Hemmings was freed, or at least offered that chance by Jefferson right? I know for sure she was free after his death, but I can't remember if he gave her the freedom before or in his will.


It has been so long since I have read any Jefferson because I abhor rapists. I don't recall him offering her freedom.
And, of course, it was really cute that he owned his children.

http://www.monticello.org/site/plantation-and-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-brief-account


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Exactly, and of course not. She was a fricken slave.


I don't know whether any mistress feels free to spurn the man's advances. But I'm not French.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

SQM said:


> Her ultimate freedom is immaterial. Was she free to spurn his sexual advances? Doubtful.


Oh I wasn't trying to say he was any less despicable for it. Just that it would be a closer comparison to mistress (if she was freed) than Hagar.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I don't know whether any mistress feels free to spurn the man's advances. But I'm not French.


If she has his wife's phone number she does.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Janet Cooke said:


> It has been so long since I have read any Jefferson because I abhor rapists. I don't recall him offering her freedom.
> And, of course, it was really cute that he owned his children.
> 
> http://www.monticello.org/site/plantation-and-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-brief-account


Yes, that was disgusting. I have had people bring up to me, in political discussions off here, Jefferson's words. They haven't done it a second time when I told them exactly what I thought of him.


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## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Janet Cooke said:


> If she has his wife's phone number she does.


 :lol:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> If she has his wife's phone number she does.


HAHAHAHAA


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

Sally Hemings was freed by Jefferson's daughter. He did however free her children when they came of age.

from Wikipedia:
Hemings herself was withheld from auction and freed at last by Jefferson's daughter, Martha Jefferson Randolph

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Hemings


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> The funniest part for me is that all anyone says is that she thinks differently and nobody knows for sure. What is to get ticked off about?


I have no idea--but it's easy to imagine her in a past life burning folks at the stake for heresy, or hanging them as witches. Cotton Mather or Bloody Mary?...who knows? Maybe both.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Cindy S said:


> Sally Hemings was freed by Jefferson's daughter. He did however free her children when they came of age.
> 
> from Wikipedia:
> Hemings herself was withheld from auction and freed at last by Jefferson's daughter, Martha Jefferson Randolph
> ...


Her children? _His_ children too! Despicable for Jefferson and other white slave owners (and there were many) to hold their own flesh and blood in slavery for even an instant.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Cindy S said:


> Sally Hemings was freed by Jefferson's daughter. He did however free her children when they came of age.
> 
> from Wikipedia:
> Hemings herself was withheld from auction and freed at last by Jefferson's daughter, Martha Jefferson Randolph
> ...


I thought it was interesting, Cindy S, that the Monticello site says that Sally Hemings was allowed to leave to live with her sons, it stops short of saying that she was freed, for whatever that is worth.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Her children? _His_ children too! Despicable for Jefferson and other white slave owners (and there were many) to hold their own flesh and blood in slavery for even an instant.


It is amazing how contemptible all that behavior still _feels_ today.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Her children? _His_ children too! Despicable for Jefferson and other white slave owners (and there were many) to hold their own flesh and blood in slavery for even an instant.


Yeah, I noted that "Heming's children" in the article, and carried it on to the post.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Her children? _His_ children too! Despicable for Jefferson and other white slave owners (and there were many) to hold their own flesh and blood in slavery for even an instant.


What I find even more unfathamble are the ones who SOLD thir children. Seriously, how could a person even do that???


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Lkholcomb said:


> What I find even more unfathamble are the ones who SOLD thir children. Seriously, how could a person even do that???


Does that really still surprise you?

Yesterday a woman was asking for a pattern to make a confederate flag bedspread. She probably has an interesting answer to your question.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> What I find even more unfathamble are the ones who SOLD thir children. Seriously, how could a person even do that???


No idea. I guess greed, in some cases, trumps all.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Lkholcomb said:


> What I find even more unfathamble are the ones who SOLD thir children. Seriously, how could a person even do that???


Cuz the thing is they were not making love, they were, how do I put this?
Having sex with the livestock,really, weren't they? FN FN FN barbarians.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> Does that really still surprise you?
> 
> Yesterday a woman was asking for a pattern to make a confederate flag bedspread. She probably has an interesting answer to your question.


I saw that. It seems appropriate--planting one's butt on that flag is certainly giving it all the respect it deserves!


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> Does that really still surprise you?
> 
> Yesterday a woman was asking for a pattern to make a confederate flag bedspread. She probably has an interesting answer to your question.


OH now, it is all about heritage, it has nothing to do with racism. Please. I hope she is making it for a teen male and he has wet dreams while using it.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> She is dead, who gives a roaring bleep?


Sally Hemmings is dead too...quit your bleeping!


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> OH now, it is all about heritage, it has nothing to do with racism. Please. I hope she is making it for a teen male and he has wet dreams while using it.


 :XD: :XD:


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> OH now, it is all about heritage, it has nothing to do with racism. Please. I hope she is making it for a teen male and he has wet dreams while using it.


You gave me my big yuck of the day.

Can someone find me the confederate flag post? I have a few questions to ask and I no longer can find her.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

SQM said:


> You gave me my big yuck of the day.
> 
> Can someone find me the confederate flag post? I have a few questions to ask and I no longer can find her.


This was from yesterday, is this it?

http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-239444-1.html


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> You gave me my big yuck of the day.
> 
> Can someone find me the confederate flag post? I have a few questions to ask and I no longer can find her.


Did you make a comment? It would be in your watched topics.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Cindy S said:


> This was from yesterday, is this it?
> 
> http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-239444-1.html


You are a pet! That indeed was the posting. I had a few words with her just now. Blah on her.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Lkholcomb said:


> What I find even more unfathamble are the ones who SOLD thir children. Seriously, how could a person even do that???


I believe I read somewhere that male slave owners sometimes did that to placate their wives--a lot of the ladies weren't happy that their husbands kept concubines and wanted to get rid of the evidence.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

That makes sense Sus. Rachel Maddow is going on and on about the bridge. I will go back to house of cards.


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

SQM said:


> You are a pet! That indeed was the posting. I had a few words with her just now. Blah on her.


 :wink:


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I believe I read somewhere that male slave owners sometimes did that to placate their wives--a lot of the ladies weren't happy that their husbands kept concubines and wanted to get rid of the evidence.


Ah well, they were one step above chattel as well, I suppose.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Ah well, they were one step above chattel as well, I suppose.


Yes, their own positions were far from secure. Have you ever read Mary Chestnut's diaries? She was an upper-class white woman from the South who gave an insider's look at life on the Old Plantation. I remember her mentioning how the ladies in the area would gossip endlessly about the "mulatto" children seen on the various plantations--but acted like the ones on their own "had simply dropped from the clouds".


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> You're mistaken on this one, VL. Margaret Sanger was an active worker for the Socialist Party...her NYC apartment was a gathering place where liberals, anarchists, Socialists and Wobblies (members of the Industrial Workers of the World) could meet. Not only did she define herself as a 'Socialist' but also she was at her core a 'Racist'. History will eventually prove her to be worse than Hitler who formulated many of his 'cleansing programs' on her ideas.
> 
> If you have evidence that she was 'reaching across the aisle to include conservatives' please post it.


Sanger was Liberal in many ways, but she was adopting the Eugenic principles from this guy:

Paul Popenoe



> Given the role of clergy in responding to crisis in families, Popenoe increased focus in training the clergy over many years. This culminated in 1978 with the American Institute of Family Relations creating the Pastoral Psychotherapy Training Program, which offered the Master of Arts in Pastoral Psychotherapy. This was the second offering of a Master's degree by the Institute.
> 
> *As Popenoe maintained his traditional values *(e.g., chastity before marriage), changes in popular culture such as feminism and sexual revolution challenged his approach. At the same time, thought leaders in the helping professions tended more and more to favor self-fulfillment over preservation of the family.* This led Popenoe to ally increasingly with religious conservativeseven though he was not religious himself. For example one of his assistants was James Dobson, who founded Focus on the Family in 1977*. In contemporary US society of the third millennium, the approach Popenoe developed to marriage counselingeducational and directive rather than medical or psychologicalis coming back into fashion. In the end, the American Institute of Family Relations turned out to be highly dependent on Popenoe's leadership. It closed in the 1980s, not long after Paul Popenoe's death.
> 
> Popenoe died 19 June 1979 in Miami, Florida.


Get that? This guy's "assistant" was James Dobson who founded Focus on the Family.

Unfortunately Sanger got herself somewhat involved with THAT movement early on.

Be it Hitler or certain Americans... Eugenics tends to weave it's sinister head MOSTLY through _Conservatism_.

Sanger however _denounced_ the aggressive and lethal Nazi eugenics program. Sanger's always focused on contraception, rather than abortion. It was not until the around 1965 +/-, after Sanger's was dead, that the reproductive rights movement expanded its scope to include abortion rights.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> Get that? This guy's "assistant" was James Dobson who founded Focus on the Family.
> 
> Unfortunately Sanger got herself somewhat involved with THAT movement early on.
> 
> Be it Hitler or certain Americans... Eugenics tends to weave it's sinister head MOSTLY through Conservatism.


Frankly, if their was any real connection between Sanger and Hitler the righties wouldn't have to generate "proof" such as this. Absolute rubbish--it speaks for itself.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Frankly, if their was any real connection between Sanger and Hitler the righties wouldn't have to generate "proof" such as this. Absolute rubbish--it speaks for itself.


Nice job, good gosh, you would think they could use a better program to accomplish their aims.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> Get that? This guy's "assistant" was James Dobson who founded Focus on the Family.
> 
> Unfortunately Sanger got herself somewhat involved with THAT movement early on.
> 
> ...


Yes she denounced her own ideas after she saw them in action. I've seen the name Popenoe but never delved into him...I will though. Thanks!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Oops!


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

OK, I saw Gerslay post that Sally Hemings is dead... like that means slavery of women is no longer an issue. 
So I must ask, 

Gersley? How many females are enslaved today?
How many forced to take birth control on a daily basis regardless of their religious preferences?
How many females are forced to have abortions when their rapists impregnate them? 
Slavery and mistreatment of those females is very much alive. Hemings was a victim, that socalled "mistress" was a victim, and the young people being raped hour after hour, day after day in 2014 are victims... linked by the chains of enslavement.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> OK, I saw Gerslay post that Sally Hemings is dead... like that means slavery of women is no longer an issue.
> So I must ask,
> 
> Gersley? How many females are enslaved today?
> ...


Sorry my phone is fading

You interjected that Sanger was dead...so I replied the same re Sally Hemmings ..nothing more.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> Yes she denounced her own ideas after she saw them in action. I've seen the name Popenoe but never delved into him...I will though. Thanks!


No, she just didn't hold the ideas you seem to think she did or at least not to the degree that is too often portrayed.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Sorry my phone is fading
> 
> You interjected that Sanger was dead...so I replied the same re Sally Hemmings ..nothing more.


Interesting deflection, forget your charger, did you?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> No, she just didn't hold the ideas you seem to think she did or at least not to the degree that is too often portrayed.


She was a still a racist...something you usually rail against...why not her?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Interesting deflection, forget your charger, did you?


Xoxo


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Yes, their own positions were far from secure. Have you ever read Mary Chestnut's diaries? She was an upper-class white woman from the South who gave an insider's look at life on the Old Plantation. I remember her mentioning how the ladies in the area would gossip endlessly about the "mulatto" children seen on the various plantations--but acted like the ones on their own "had simply dropped from the clouds".


No, i will have to put it on my want to reads. Thanks.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> She was a still a racist...something you usually rail against...why not her?


Was she a slave owner?


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Was she a slave owner?


GOOGLE IT


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Sanger believed in eugenics but that is a very moot point now. Planned Parenthood has done the right thing for decades and is taking a beating from the tea-party idiots. On this thread we should move past Sanger and focus on Planned Parenthood being one of our best allies.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> She was a still a racist...something you usually rail against...why not her?


And there you go again with shallow, under informed RW talking points.

I understand that Conservatives tend to lack the intellectual capacity to understand complexities... shouldn't y'all at least TRY to get beyond your simplistic thinking?

Wiki:



> *While Sanger did not wholly escape the racist attitudes of her time, she would not tolerate bigotry among her staff, nor would she tolerate any refusal to work within interracial projects. * In 1929, James H. Hubert, a black social worker and leader of New York's Urban League, asked Sanger to open a clinic in Harlem. Sanger secured funding from the Julius Rosenwald Fund and opened the clinic, staffed with black doctors, in 1930. The clinic was directed by a 15-member advisory board consisting of African-American doctors, nurses, clergy, journalists, and social workers. The clinic was publicized in the African-American press and in black churches, and it received the approval of W. E. B. Du Bois, founder of the NAACP. Sanger's work with minorities earned praise from Martin Luther King, Jr., in his 1966 acceptance speech for the Margaret Sanger award.
> 
> From 1939 to 1942 Sanger was an honorary delegate of the Birth Control Federation of America, which included a supervisory role  alongside Mary Lasker and Clarence Gamble  in the ***** Project, an effort to deliver birth control to poor blacks. Sanger wanted the ***** Project to include black ministers in leadership roles, but other supervisors did not. To emphasize the benefits of involving black community leaders, she wrote to Gamble "we do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the ***** population and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members." This quote has been cited by Angela Davis to support her claims that Sanger wanted to exterminate black people. However, New York University's Margaret Sanger Papers Project, argues that in writing that letter, "Sanger recognized that elements within the black community might mistakenly associate the ***** Project with racist sterilization campaigns in the Jim Crow South, unless clergy and other community leaders spread the word that the Project had a humanitarian aim."


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

SQM said:


> Sanger believed in eugenics but that is a very moot point now. Planned Parenthood has done the right thing for decades and is taking a beating from the tea-party idiots. On this thread we should move past Sanger and focus on Planned Parenthood being one of our best allies.


Agreed, but you shouldn't condone who Sanger was in the process.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

VL...You wouldn't condone racism just because its on your side of the aisle would you? It certainly looks that way.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

SQM said:


> Sanger believed in eugenics but that is a very moot point now. Planned Parenthood has done the right thing for decades and is taking a beating from the tea-party idiots. On this thread we should move past Sanger and focus on Planned Parenthood being one of our best allies.


The mere fact that people like Gerslay have to so distort the facts on who Sanger was and what she believed means they simply don't have ACTUAL facts to back up their claims.

They're in a constant state of distorting and inventing facts because they just are WRONG on most issues, so they have to create alter realities and REVISE history.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> The mere fact that people like Gerslay have to so distort the facts on who Sanger was and what she believed means they simply don't have ACTUAL facts to back up their claims.
> 
> They're in a constant state of distorting and inventing facts because they just are WRONG on most issues, so they have to create alter realities and REVISE history.


I see you're on your merry go round again...typical LW passive aggressive ploy.

Goodnight

.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Sanger was not motivated by the best of intentions for sure. But again she is no longer Planned Parenthood and we should not taint that organization with her ideas.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> Agreed, but you shouldn't condone who Sanger was in the process.


And who Sanger was, was a woman's right's advocate who sadly adopted the Conservative principle of Eugenics. Yes, I don't condone her straying off of liberal principles and adopting conservative ignorance.... but no one is perfect.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> I see you're on your merry go round again...typical LW passive aggressive ploy.
> 
> Goodnight
> 
> .


My only "ploy" is to aggressively speak truth, nothing passive about that.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> Sanger believed in eugenics but that is a very moot point now. Planned Parenthood has done the right thing for decades and is taking a beating from the tea-party idiots. On this thread we should move past Sanger and focus on Planned Parenthood being one of our best allies.


Absolutely, SQM. The eugenics movement was a hideous chapter in our nations history, but to dismiss out of hand every individual and organization who supported, to whatever extent, its tenets would probably be a mistake:

The American eugenics movement received extensive funding from various corporate foundations including the Carnegie Institution, Rockefeller Foundation, and the Harriman railroad fortune. In 1906 J.H. Kellogg provided funding to help found the Race Betterment Foundation in Battle Creek, Michigan. The Eugenics Record Office (ERO) was founded in Cold Spring Harbor, New York in 1911 by the renowned biologist Charles B. Davenport, using money from both the Harriman railroad fortune and the Carnegie Institution. As late as the 1920s, the ERO was one of the leading organizations in the American eugenics movement. In years to come, the ERO collected a mass of family pedigrees and concluded that those who were unfit came from economically and socially poor backgrounds. Eugenicists such as Davenport, the psychologist Henry H. Goddard, Harry H. Laughlin, and the conservationist Madison Grant (all well respected in their time) began to lobby for various solutions to the problem of the "unfit". Davenport favored immigration restriction and sterilization as primary methods; Goddard favored segregation in his The Kallikak Family; Grant favored all of the above and more, even entertaining the idea of extermination. The Eugenics Record Office later became the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory...

By 1910, there was a large and dynamic network of scientists, reformers and professionals engaged in national eugenics projects and actively promoting eugenic legislation. The American Breeders Association was the first eugenic body in the U.S., established in 1906 under the direction of biologist Charles B. Davenport. The ABA was formed specifically to investigate and report on heredity in the human race, and emphasize the value of superior blood and the menace to society of inferior blood. Membership included Alexander Graham Bell, Stanford president David Starr Jordan and Luther Burbank. The American Association for the Study and Prevention of Infant Mortality was one of the first organizations to begin investigating infant mortality rates in terms of eugenics. They promoted government intervention in attempts to promote the health of future citizens. (Wikipedia)


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> GOOGLE IT


I know the answer, rarely use Google, thanks tho.


----------



## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

SQM said:


> Sanger was not motivated by the best of intentions for sure. But again she is no longer Planned Parenthood and we should not taint that organization with her ideas.


She was often motivated by the best of intentions. Was she a perfect being, of course not. She was a "radical" for her time, and often radicals have some unsavory traits mixed in with their better ones.

I understand your desire to move on as Gersley is purposely bringing up Sanger up to disrupt the thread and the discussion. But, she's also telling untruths in the process.

Then again, we've shown Gerslay is once again not interested in being truthful or rational, so I agree. I'm moving on.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

But without Gerslay we would be all agreeing amongst ourselves and that would not be so much fun. let her stay.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> Sanger believed in eugenics but that is a very moot point now. Planned Parenthood has done the right thing for decades and is taking a beating from the tea-party idiots. On this thread we should move past Sanger and focus on Planned Parenthood being one of our best allies.


The United States gov't indulged in some pretty nasty business. 
The Tuskegee Syphilis experiment for example.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> But without Gerslay we would be all agreeing amongst ourselves and that would not be so much fun. let her stay.


We can't keep it out, it is an open thread. 
She adds nothing, we can disagree among ourselves. 
We do it quite well. 
I do not accept that Sanger was into eugenics. 
I am not saying that she wasn't I would have to refresh my reading.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

We can fill volumes with all the S%^t that America has done. And I am sure we are only aware of half of it. I am watching House of Cards and I truly believe in all the vicious machinations in government that is portrayed.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

"I do not accept that Sanger was into eugenics." 

Cooke - in our day it was not mentioned. It was my daughter in 2004 who brought it to my attention when she was taking a women's study class. Sad but very true. What is that saying about the road of good intentions is paved with ?????


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Absolutely, SQM. The eugenics movement was a hideous chapter in our nations history, but to dismiss out of hand every individual and organization who supported, to whatever extent, its tenets would probably be a mistake:
> 
> The American eugenics movement received extensive funding from various corporate foundations including the Carnegie Institution, Rockefeller Foundation, and the Harriman railroad fortune. In 1906 J.H. Kellogg provided funding to help found the Race Betterment Foundation in Battle Creek, Michigan. The Eugenics Record Office (ERO) was founded in Cold Spring Harbor, New York in 1911 by the renowned biologist Charles B. Davenport, using money from both the Harriman railroad fortune and the Carnegie Institution. As late as the 1920s, the ERO was one of the leading organizations in the American eugenics movement. In years to come, the ERO collected a mass of family pedigrees and concluded that those who were unfit came from economically and socially poor backgrounds. Eugenicists such as Davenport, the psychologist Henry H. Goddard, Harry H. Laughlin, and the conservationist Madison Grant (all well respected in their time) began to lobby for various solutions to the problem of the "unfit". Davenport favored immigration restriction and sterilization as primary methods; Goddard favored segregation in his The Kallikak Family; Grant favored all of the above and more, even entertaining the idea of extermination. The Eugenics Record Office later became the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory...
> 
> By 1910, there was a large and dynamic network of scientists, reformers and professionals engaged in national eugenics projects and actively promoting eugenic legislation. The American Breeders Association was the first eugenic body in the U.S., established in 1906 under the direction of biologist Charles B. Davenport. The ABA was formed specifically to investigate and report on heredity in the human race, and emphasize the value of superior blood and the menace to society of inferior blood. Membership included Alexander Graham Bell, Stanford president David Starr Jordan and Luther Burbank. The American Association for the Study and Prevention of Infant Mortality was one of the first organizations to begin investigating infant mortality rates in terms of eugenics. They promoted government intervention in attempts to promote the health of future citizens. (Wikipedia)


One of the Koch brothers supports the Metropolitan Opera.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

SQM said:


> Does that really still surprise you?
> 
> Yesterday a woman was asking for a pattern to make a confederate flag bedspread. She probably has an interesting answer to your question.


I think I still have that hopeful optimism. But it just keeps getting squashed.

I missed that post requesting that pattern. Good grief!


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> "I do not accept that Sanger was into eugenics."
> 
> Cooke - in our day it was not mentioned. It was my daughter in 2004 who brought it to my attention when she was taking a women's study class. Sad but very true. What is that saying about the road of good intentions is paved with ?????


Well, as I said, it comes up periodically. 
Fact is I could give a chit, she is dead. LOL. 
It could very well be a case of "ding dong..." or not
The righties certainly don't care about racial or ethnic equality, they are using this to smear Planned Parenthood.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

"One of the Koch brothers supports the Metropolitan Opera."

Actually one of the Koch bros restored the State Theatre in Lincoln Center and now it is named after him. Makes going there very dreadful now.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Janet Cooke said:


> OH now, it is all about heritage, it has nothing to do with racism. Please. I hope she is making it for a teen male and he has wet dreams while using it.


 :lol:


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Lkholcomb said:


> I think I still have that hopeful optimism. But it just keeps getting squashed.
> 
> I missed that post requesting that pattern. Good grief!


I found it thanks to Cindy. It is under the heading of Rebel Flag and it was posted by a new woman who came aboard yesterday. I asked her to leave today.

Go into search using Rebel Flag and it should pop up. Few takers on that post but some did help her with where to find the flag.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> We can't keep it out, it is an open thread.
> She adds nothing, we can disagree among ourselves.
> We do it quite well.
> I do not accept that Sanger was into eugenics.
> I am not saying that she wasn't I would have to refresh my reading.


Wouldn't eugenics lead to inbreeding or had they figured out they would need a broad gene pool to keep the superior race in existence?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Wouldn't eugenics lead to inbreeding or had they figured out they would need a broad gene pool to keep the superior race in existence?


Why are you assuming they think?


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Yes, their own positions were far from secure. Have you ever read Mary Chestnut's diaries? She was an upper-class white woman from the South who gave an insider's look at life on the Old Plantation. I remember her mentioning how the ladies in the area would gossip endlessly about the "mulatto" children seen on the various plantations--but acted like the ones on their own "had simply dropped from the clouds".


Yes, and I was watching a documentary a while ago that was telling how the wives also in the position of being afraid because their husbands often put the slaves they were currently doing as household slaves and the wives would see them all the time and would fear poisoning. Frankly the entire war on women has been going on for a long time I think, and those who are trying to keep women down are just getting sneakier.


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

SQM said:


> "One of the Koch brothers supports the Metropolitan Opera."
> 
> Actually one of the Koch bros restored the State Theatre in Lincoln Center and now it is named after him. Makes going there very dreadful now.


Yup, and which fountain was it that he had repaired?
This is the way robber barons have operated forever. 
Philanthropy hides so many "sins".


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

SQM said:


> Sanger believed in eugenics but that is a very moot point now. Planned Parenthood has done the right thing for decades and is taking a beating from the tea-party idiots. On this thread we should move past Sanger and focus on Planned Parenthood being one of our best allies.


I am a proud card carrying member. You are so correct. They are a wonderful organization and have done so much for the good health and well being of American women and for men too. The right only harps on a single issue and ignores all the rest but they are kind of like that about everything aren't they.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

VocalLisa said:


> My only "ploy" is to aggressively speak truth, nothing passive about that.


Whatever your ploy was, it got her to leave, which is not a bad thing.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Yup, and which fountain was it that he had repaired?
> This is the way robber barons have operated forever.
> Philanthropy hides so many "sins".


Sad but true. Money forgives a lot of sins or at least overlooks them. It's too bad a lot of not for profits accept money from these sources but maybe they see it as doing something for the greater good and can justify it that way.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

SQM said:


> Why are you assuming they think?


Got me on that one.


----------



## Lkholcomb (Aug 25, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Wouldn't eugenics lead to inbreeding or had they figured out they would need a broad gene pool to keep the superior race in existence?


I believe they were hoping that the gene pool was broad. But even that after a while would lead to inbreeding.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Wouldn't eugenics lead to inbreeding or had they figured out they would need a broad gene pool to keep the superior race in existence?


That's an interesting point. I don't think they ever went that far in their thinking.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Whatever your ploy was, it got her to leave, which is not a bad thing.


They will run away when the heat is more than they can bear. KPG hasn't been around much lately or maybe I haven't been on the right threads.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> That's an interesting point. I don't think they ever went that far in their thinking.


Look what happened to so many noble families as far back as Egypt and up until relatively recent times and they finally realized what was happening and started seeking out other nobles to marry so they wouldn't all die off from the "closeness" in families. I think people still do it the old way in Michelle Bachmann's district. Lots of strange people where she comes from.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Why would anyone covet someone else's spouse when they don't even like their own? Grass always greener?



Janet Cooke said:


> It has been a long time, but, I don't think so. It's no graven images. My edit doesnt want to work this very minute.
> Actually, rule #2
> 
> Oops, that was those darned people Luther influenced.
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> But not their asses. Or their oxen.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Pure Purl.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No but you're thinking it and we all know it.



Janet Cooke said:


> I won't say it, I won't.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Janet Cooke said:


> If she has his wife's phone number she does.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: That works. (If telephones are invented yet.)


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Lucky ??? Sally.



Cindy S said:


> Sally Hemings was freed by Jefferson's daughter. He did however free her children when they came of age.
> 
> from Wikipedia:
> Hemings herself was withheld from auction and freed at last by Jefferson's daughter, Martha Jefferson Randolph
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> I saw that. It seems appropriate--planting one's butt on that flag is certainly giving it all the respect it deserves!


Maybe we all need to knit one for ourselves to use thusly.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well, I guess you told us in your usual polite and thoughtful way. God bless.



Gerslay said:


> Sally Hemmings is dead too...quit your bleeping!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I searched for Rebel Flag....then looked for d/18/2014 date. There is much interest in the topic. Ugh.



SQM said:


> You gave me my big yuck of the day.
> 
> Can someone find me the confederate flag post? I have a few questions to ask and I no longer can find her.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I added my 2 cents to yours and Colorado.



SQM said:


> You are a pet! That indeed was the posting. I had a few words with her just now. Blah on her.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

So the ladies deserved their husbands. Why weren't they starved or poisoned?



susanmos2000 said:


> I believe I read somewhere that male slave owners sometimes did that to placate their wives--a lot of the ladies weren't happy that their husbands kept concubines and wanted to get rid of the evidence.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Amen.



SQM said:


> Sanger believed in eugenics but that is a very moot point now. Planned Parenthood has done the right thing for decades and is taking a beating from the tea-party idiots. On this thread we should move past Sanger and focus on Planned Parenthood being one of our best allies.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

This is the day that the Lord has made
I shall rejoice and be glad in it!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Gerslay said:


> This is the day that the Lord has made
> I shall rejoice and be glad in it!


Amen Sister, Amen!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

A foreshadowing of spring here in NC today:
67 degrees...warm and sunny...balmy breezes.

Open the windows.........!


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> This is the day that the Lord has made
> I shall rejoice and be glad in it!


 :thumbup: Me, too; . even if the weather isn't to my liking. :-D

Besides, Pres Obama is beginning to outline his campaign to control the weather, calling it climate change and the most dangerous threat to Americans today; so no worries for anyone; believers or not!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Sister KPG - please try not to ruin my ecstasy as fostered by Sister Gerslay with political talk at this moment. Praise to the lord, Praise to the god of all gods for only having snow in the NYC forecast on Tuesday. Praise Spirit and please unstuff my nose.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

SQM said:


> Sister KPG - please try not to ruin my ecstasy as fostered by Sister Gerslay with political talk at this moment. Praise to the lord, Praise to the god of all gods for only having snow in the NYC forecast on Tuesday. Praise Spirit and please unstuff my nose.


Sister SQM...may I suggest you stop hanging upside down from tree limbs? Its no wonder yaw node id sufft up!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Sister G - you finally said something funny here. My day is made. 

No the sloth is what I worship and I will suffer on its behalf. So I will actually put my body in a similar position soon and finish sleeping.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

So I am out for one day and see that the Lib's other three sites got so boring and they had no response that they like nor anyone will post to again have to take over another site.

What did I learn the usual Lib's can bully their way through any topic with out an ounce of knowledge and change subjects at will. If one does not agree your wrong Lib's are right.

To think they spend all their time wasting what little they have looking for a site or topic they can over run with their unbelieveable knowledge.

Oh I forgot the right has taken over every site that Liberal have started. Be careful what you say your words may come back to haunt you.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> So I am out for one day and see that the Lib's other three sites got so boring and they had no response that they like nor anyone will post to again have to take over another site.
> 
> What did I learn the usual Lib's can bully their way through any topic with out an ounce of knowledge and change subjects at will. If one does not agree your wrong Lib's are right.
> 
> ...


I guess they believe in squatter's rights .. makes for an interesting visual though doesn't it?

:thumbup:


----------



## Cindy S (Oct 20, 2013)

theyarnlady said:


> So I am out for one day and see that the Lib's other three sites got so boring and they had no response that they like nor anyone will post to again have to take over another site.
> 
> What did I learn the usual Lib's can bully their way through any topic with out an ounce of knowledge and change subjects at will. If one does not agree your wrong Lib's are right.
> 
> ...


And the snarkiness begins for the day.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Oh drats...I forgot to close the door!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Isn't it interesting that they're so proud of it? Did you hear that President Obama has taken over the weather?

Looking for real discussions.



Cindy S said:


> And the snarkiness begins for the day.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

#WARONWOMEN: Today is White House Equal Pay Day

This is the day to which women staffers must work through in 2014 in order to earn as much as male staffers did in 2013.

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2014/02/february-20-is-white-house-equal-pay-day-the-date-in-2014-women-must-work-to-earn-what-men-earned-in-2013/

Carpe Diem!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

DameMary and Cindy S...there's a real discussion for you...have at it!


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> #WARONWOMEN: Today is White House Equal Pay Day
> 
> This is the day to which women staffers must work through in 2014 in order to earn as much as male staffers did in 2013.
> 
> ...


Can't you, please, stop wasting our time with satire? and no, you may have noticed I don't have a sense of humor.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Janet Cooke said:


> Can't you, please, stop wasting our time with satire? and no, you may have noticed I don't have a sense of humor.


I'm so surprised that you don't identify with your sisters who are underpaid in the Obama administration. I guess that's because you can't face the reality of it all...eh?


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> Isn't it interesting that they're so proud of it? Did you hear that President Obama has taken over the weather?
> 
> Looking for real discussions.


I did not realise that your President was so powerful. If he is taking over the weather, could you please ask him to direct some rain down to Western Australia as we have not seen any for over 80 days now. Could he also make it a little cooler? I am fed up with these days with the temperature in the high 30Cs and the nights in the 20Cs. The Eastern States have cooler temperatures and even rain, so why is the President, who is taking control of the weather, not being nice to Perth.

Silly old me thought 'climate change' meant something different, but I am so thankful that another KP poster has enlightened me and explained that climate change means that your President is taking control of the weather. Oh well, they say you should learn something new every day. Onwards and upwards. :x :x :x


----------



## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> I'm so surprised that you don't identify with your sisters who are underpaid in the Obama administration. I guess that's because you can't face the reality of it all...eh?


I guess that is because it was a blogger's satirical piece and not news. 
Better luck next time.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Janet...have you noticed that you always respond to a topic that I post but I never respond to yours? Hmmmm!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Are you stating that the discrepancy of pay between men and women is President Obama's fault too along with climate change? Both have been around for many, many years. He's been fought on every attempt to do anything at all by the GOP. I say, 'choose your battles well.'

It takes an uprising to get attention to an issue. I'm retired. I see it as an issue for those still working....along with minimum wages....glass ceiling....harassment.



Gerslay said:


> DameMary and Cindy S...there's a real discussion for you...have at it!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Empress of Perth sarcasm. I bow to your talent.



EveMCooke said:


> I did not realise that your President was so powerful. If he is taking over the weather, could you please ask him to direct some rain down to Western Australia as we have not seen any for over 80 days now. Could he also make it a little cooler? I am fed up with these days with the temperature in the high 30Cs and the nights in the 20Cs. The Eastern States have cooler temperatures and even rain, so why is the President, who is taking control of the weather, not being nice to Perth.
> 
> Silly old me thought 'climate change' meant something different, but I am so thankful that another KP poster has enlightened me and explained that climate change means that your President is taking control of the weather. Oh well, they say you should learn something new every day. Onwards and upwards. :x :x :x


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That certainly proves something. You're just interested in blowing your own horn rather than having a discussion. God bless.



Gerslay said:


> Janet...have you noticed that you always respond to a topic that I post but I never respond to yours? Hmmmm!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

damemary said:


> That certainly proves something. You're just interested in blowing your own horn rather than having a discussion. God bless.


No dear, it proves that I don't give a "hoot" about Janet, her postings, or her opinions, in any way shape or form. Nor yours!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Is this really the tone you want to take? Because if you're insulting, someone else will insult you back, and that will make you cry, as it has in the past. Besides, I don't know what "other three sites" you're talking about; we've had some really good conversations on a few, but I think you stop reading when you can't understand what's being said.



theyarnlady said:


> So I am out for one day and see that the Lib's other three sites got so boring and they had no response that they like nor anyone will post to again have to take over another site.
> 
> What did I learn the usual Lib's can bully their way through any topic with out an ounce of knowledge and change subjects at will. If one does not agree your wrong Lib's are right.
> 
> ...


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

damemary said:


> Are you stating that the discrepancy of pay between men and women is President Obama's fault too along with climate change? Both have been around for many, many years. He's been fought on every attempt to do anything at all by the GOP. I say, 'choose your battles well.'
> 
> It takes an uprising to get attention to an issue. I'm retired. I see it as an issue for those still working....along with minimum wages....glass ceiling....harassment.


Of course the discrepancy of pay between men and woman is President Obama's fault. Please, everything is President Obama's fault. Did you not see him standing on the grassy knoll in 1963, he was only a very small boy at the time but he was guilty. I also think, no I believe, it is his fault that my grandson's cat died last week. He caused the climate to change and this caused the cat to develop a face ulcer, which lead to the cat's death. But, definitely, it was President Obama's fault. He is very powerful indeed.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> I'm so surprised that you don't identify with your sisters who are underpaid in the Obama administration. I guess that's because you can't face the reality of it all...eh?


Do you really expect to be taken seriously after having said you would pi$$ on us? We have more class than that.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I did not realise that your President was so powerful. If he is taking over the weather, could you please ask him to direct some rain down to Western Australia as we have not seen any for over 80 days now. Could he also make it a little cooler? I am fed up with these days with the temperature in the high 30Cs and the nights in the 20Cs. The Eastern States have cooler temperatures and even rain, so why is the President, who is taking control of the weather, not being nice to Perth.
> 
> Silly old me thought 'climate change' meant something different, but I am so thankful that another KP poster has enlightened me and explained that climate change means that your President is taking control of the weather. Oh well, they say you should learn something new every day. Onwards and upwards. :x :x :x


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> That certainly proves something. You're just interested in blowing your own horn rather than having a discussion. God bless.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> No dear, it proves that I don't give a "hoot" about Janet, her postings, or her opinions, in any way shape or form. Nor yours!


Then why do you keep crying out for their attention?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Of course the discrepancy of pay between men and woman is President Obama's fault. Please, everything is President Obama's fault. Did you not see him standing on the grassy knoll in 1963, he was only a very small boy at the time but he was guilty. I also think, no I believe, it is his fault that my grandson's cat died last week. He caused the climate to change and this caused the cat to develop a face ulcer, which lead to the cat's death. But, definitely, it was President Obama's fault. He is very powerful indeed.


I hope your heat wave isn't his idea. If it is, you're in deep doodoo indeed.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Do you really expect to be taken seriously after having said you would pi$$ on us? We have more class than that.


I didn't say I would pi$$ on you...Cheeky made a nasty comment about looking up the Jolly Green Giant's skirt and it was he who made that comment as a warning to her that she'd best step back so as not to get wet!

It was a joke, poopur!


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## Gerripho (Dec 7, 2013)

Janet Cooke said:


> The same people who would vilify Sanger for being a woman of her times will excuse Jefferson for raping his slave(s) and claim that it was appropriate to call Africans 60% human.


Jefferson did not call Africans 60% human. Jefferson wrote the final draft of the Declaration of Independence. The reference to 60% (actually three-fifths) appears in the Constitution of the United States and Jefferson had no part in the deliberations or writing of that document.

The entire statement was written as: "Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons."

At the time of the writing, there were ****** in the northern states who were free and therefore counted. There were also some free ****** in the southern states, some who actually owned slaves themselves. The free blacks in the south were counted. Their slaves were discounted to three-fifths ONLY for the purpose of allocating representatives and direct taxes.

Had the authors of the Constitution not used the three-fifths method of determining representatives for the House of Representatives, the southern, slave-holding states would have had many more representatives sent to the House and their influence would have been greater than it was. The men in Philadelphia in 1787 from the Southern States wanted their slaves fully counted to increase their influence. The men from the Northern States wanted slaves to not be counted at all. They compromised on the three-fifths to preserve the union.

Agreeing to _count_ three-fifths is not the same as saying someone _is_ three-fifths. Notice how the section ends. It says ". . . three-fifths of all other _Persons_ ." Notice, too, there is absolutely no reference to the race of "all other Persons." Any person of any race who was not free, nor bound to service for a term of years, nor an Indian not taxed would have been included as one of all other persons.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Gerripho said:


> Jefferson did not call Africans 60% human. Jefferson wrote the final draft of the Declaration of Independence. The reference to 60% (actually three-fifths) appears in the Constitution of the United States and Jefferson had no part in the deliberations or writing of that document.
> 
> The entire statement was written as: "Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons."
> 
> ...


Thanks, Gerripho. Some would rather distort the truth for their own agenda but that's the exact truth.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Oh woe is me oh woe is me. Be careful what you say it may come back to haunt you.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> I didn't say I would pi$$ on you...Cheeky made a nasty comment about looking up the Jolly Green Giant's skirt and it was he who made that comment as a warning to her that she'd best step back so as not to get wet!
> 
> It was a joke, poopur!


And so are you.


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## Gerripho (Dec 7, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Thanks, Gerripho. Some would rather distort the truth for their own agenda but that's the exact truth.


The sad part is the falsehood is being taught in our schools. The other sad part is we (this country) is never given credit for all it's efforts to correct past wrongs. Brazil had slavery until well into the 1880s (two decades after our Civil War) and no one thinks less of them. Slavery still exists in parts of the world today and yet we are not allowed to even think Western Civilization is in any way better. All cultures must be thought equal. It's really sad.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Oh woe is me oh woe is me. Be careful what you say it may come back to haunt you.


Go rattle your chains somewhere else, Marley.


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## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

:twisted:


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Gerripho said:


> The sad part is the falsehood is being taught in our schools. The other sad part is we (this country) is never given credit for all it's efforts to correct past wrongs. Brazil had slavery until well into the 1880s (two decades after our Civil War) and no one thinks less of them. Slavery still exists in parts of the world today and yet we are not allowed to even think Western Civilization is in any way better. All cultures must be thought equal. It's really sad.


You must be joking. Slavery may have ended for good in 1865 but its evil cousin--Jim Crow segregation--was in place well into the 1960s. That's within most of our lifetimes here on KP. Really hard for other nationals to credit us for "efforts to correct past wrongs" when so many have witnessed those "Whites only" signs that used to be hung everywhere.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Janet...have you noticed that you always respond to a topic that I post but I never respond to yours? Hmmmm!


Gerslay? Just because you don't "quote reply" doesn't mean you are not responding. 
And, Sweetie? I really, really don't care what you think.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Search for the rebel flag thread and you will find more of your ilk,Theyarnlady.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Thank you for stating true history. There are to many that believe only the rewritten progressive history. There are many who do not believe each person is responsible for himself, and blame past happening for their plight and play the victim.


Pot meet kettle. You and your rightist cronies intend to blame Obama for the nation's ills for as long as you can get away with it--certainly well beyond 2016, when he leave office.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Gerripho said:


> Jefferson did not call Africans 60% human. Jefferson wrote the final draft of the Declaration of Independence. The reference to 60% (actually three-fifths) appears in the Constitution of the United States and Jefferson had no part in the deliberations or writing of that document.
> 
> The entire statement was written as: "Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons."
> 
> ...


You don't know what Jefferson called Africans. He owned them, he raped at least one, probably more. Unless you want to try to convince us that you were with him then, you have no idea how he referenced people when he talked about them. 
He (Jefferson) didn't participate in the writing of the US Constitution because he was in France at the time that it was completed and sent out for ratification. He didn't return to the US until after it had been accepted. 
We all understand the reasons behind the selfish moves of the rich and powerful men who came to consensus about the parameters of the control they wanted over residents here.

Why don't you explain to us how those prosperous white guys bought, sold, abused, maimed, and murdered those people who were only discounted so that they couldn't vote and upset the balance of power?
They didn't sell their white children, they didn't sell their brothers, sisters, wives... I will be interested as can be to see the excuses you put forward, Gerri.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

joeysomma said:


> Thank you for stating true history. There are to many that believe only the rewritten progressive history. There are many who do not believe each person is responsible for himself, and blame past happenings for their plight and play the victim.


So your past has no influence on your condition?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Pot meet kettle. You and your rightist cronies intend to blame Obama for the nation's ills for as long as you can get away with it--certainly well beyond 2016, when he leave office.


And his bad influence preceded 2009, when he first took office. As if Bush left us in the Garden of Eden and Obama chased us out.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> You must be joking. Slavery may have ended for good in 1865 but its evil cousin--Jim Crow segregation--was in place well into the 1960s. That's within most of our lifetimes here on KP. Really hard for other nationals to credit us for "efforts to correct past wrongs" when so many have witnessed those "Whites only" signs that used to be hung everywhere.


Not to mention that it would take an idiot to deny that there is still slavery here in the good ol' USA today. 
What the heck does she (?) mean 'in other parts" of the world? 
It may be white slave trade, it is still just as sick, just harder for sunshine to disinfect.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

SQM said:


> But without Gerslay we would be all agreeing amongst ourselves and that would not be so much fun. let her stay.


No without Gerslay or those like her, we could have could have HONEST disagreements with those who are left.

My issue with Gerslay or those like her is that they're not very truthful.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

VocalLisa said:


> No without Gerslay or those like her, we could have could have HONEST disagreements with those who are left.
> 
> My issue with Gerslay or those like her is that they're not very truthful.


But Gerslay actually made a witty comment to me this morning. Let her stay for the rest of the day since she displayed a rare sense of humor.


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## VocalLisa (Jan 4, 2014)

Gerslay said:


> This is the day that the Lord has made
> I shall rejoice and be glad in it!


This is a day that maybe God made or maybe there is no God.

I can rejoice in the day and be glad in it either way.


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## Janet Cooke (Aug 14, 2013)

Gerripho wrote:
Jefferson did not call Africans 60% human. Jefferson wrote the final draft of the Declaration of Independence. The reference to 60% (actually three-fifths) appears in the Constitution of the United States and Jefferson had no part in the deliberations or writing of that document.


Did you notice that she complained and repeated what you said?

JanetCooke wrote:
...He (Jefferson) didn't participate in the writing of the US Constitution because he was in France at the time that it was completed and sent out for ratification....

joeysomma


Did you notice you stupid, stupid, person that I was explaining that pig Thomas Jefferson was not, as Gerri implied, staying out of the action because he disagreed with the 60% (though he did want a lesser presence on a federal level) but because he was not in the US to participate?


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