# Things are heating up in the world #12



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So, is a death sentence carried out after a trial that determines guilt or innocence, the same as beating you daughter to death because she was raped? Or beating your wife to death because she made you angry? In some countries, murder is acceptable behavior. Morals are not the same across different cultures. That's the point I was trying to make. Beliefs influence morals.


And many countries have abolished the death penalty decades ago because the citizens of that country do not agree with the death penalty; they term it 'legalised murder'. Australia abolished the death penalty in the mid 1960s. The death penalty is *NOT* a deterrent to murder. If this was the case then there would not be murders in the USA. The death penalty is abhorrent in many countries in the world, that is why there was such an outcry when Indonesia shot the drug smugglers just recently. Murder is murder, it it the taking of another human life, regardless of how that murder is carried out. So to answer your question


> So, is a death sentence carried out after a trial that determines guilt or innocence, the same as beating you daughter to death because she was raped?


 Both are murder and therefore unacceptable to thinking adults.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Not correct. The Psychic Sloth believed he was real and was a "he".


The Psychic Sloth may be psychic after all. I'm also beginning to think it's a man.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Well said. Who was it who said "Religion needs morality but morality does not need religion."


Whoever it was was pretty damn smart.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Honestly??? I'm not convinced. First I saw the woman put a tray with the "good" block and the "bad" block. The baby reached for the block that was nearest her right hand first and when she reached for the other block with her left hand, the lady pulled the tray away and the film stopped. With the puppets, the lady held the "good" puppet in front of her and wiggled it around. That would definitely attract a baby's attention. This video wasn't enough to convince me of anything.


No five-minute video should convince anyone of anything. But I won't continue arguing. You think what you need to think.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

RainSounds said:


> Well, some might argue people 'invent' or 'adopt' beliefs in order to justify and excuse their inherent moralities.
> 
> Christians, have had and continue to have their fair share of horrible, immoral behavior in the name of religion.
> 
> ...


Thumbs up wasn't enough. Very much agree.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> How do you explain Saudi Arabia or Iran, or for that matter, isis? They have very different morals than we do. They murder people for all kinds of reasons, many of them legal.


You confuse the people of Saudi Arabia and Iran with their leaders. You probably have to be deviant to get to the top in most nations, but that doesn't mean that your subjects are equally deviant.

ISIS is clearly a group of psychopaths, who want attention in the worst way and have found the worst way to get it. But they're self-selected, so you wouldn't expect them to be like the huge majority of people.

And again, the fact that something is legal doesn't make it moral, and vice versa. Among my people, eating a cheeseburger would be "illegal," but I don't think the most Orthodox of rabbis would call it immoral.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Children learn from examples and they learn their behaviour from their parents; they ape their parents and follow their parent 's examples. The school children who have to be 'taught morals because their parents have not taught them morals' are merely following their parents behaviour and it is more a case of teaching the child not to follow their parents behaviour. Children will always believe that their home situation is the 'norm' and that other families are the 'not normal' ones. For example, children who grow up in a violent home situation are more likely to believe that violence in the home is normal. It is also the case with children who grow up in a home where one or both parents are alcoholics; they believe that excessive alcoholic consumption is normal.
> 
> I can see your point "Our schools are dealing with lots of kids who weren't taught morals, and are actually teaching them in elementary school" but I honestly think it is more a case of teaching the children not to follow their parents antisocial behaviour because their parents antisocial behaviour is not normal behaviour.


This is a better description of what schools can do than "teaching morals." Thanks.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

RainSounds said:


> Sort of like when people choose their belief system because it confirms or justifies what they already feel. Or at least the morality that want other people to think they have.


Yes, like that.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

RainSounds said:


> Well, ya know ... they all sorta look a like even though one of my best friends is one of them.


Hmm. I wonder what that says about you.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Methinks someone protesteth too much.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cocoons are nice.



Wombatnomore said:


> Go and knit something Gerslay.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> :::sobbing:::
> 
> doesn't you love me no more, Womby?


I do have a spot for you Gerslay but you're being annoying! And it's not that common that you come over and tell us off anyway. As you know, provocative interlopers are a pain, especially those who are total strangers. At least with the usuals we know who we're dealing with. And the recent 'strangers' are so reminiscent of some that are known, their behaviour is a bit of an insult to the collective intelligence. Of course there will be a reaction here as there would be on D&P, so why are you intervening on the 'strangers'' behalf?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I make it a habit to never trust these guys & all banks. I borrow little. I am careful of interest rates and expenses. I highly recommend it. PM if questions.



Wombatnomore said:


> This article sent shivers down my spine. What in the hell is going on if the major financial institutions are carrying on like this? And surely this won't be the last time they try to suck their investors dry (including us mere plebs).
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-21/us-britain-fine-top-banks-nearly-6-bn-for-forex-libor-abuses/6485510


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Dangrktty, you're a mine of information, and a real addition to this thread. Glad you found us.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Welcome.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Morals are born in us, not learned. It's the result of natural empathy, and babies know right from wrong, or fair from unfair, very early. Morals don't change, though some behaviors have been called immoral in earlier times that we now recognize as not immoral.
> 
> See http://www.nytimes.com/video/magazine/1247467772000/can-babies-tell-right-from-wrong.html?action=click&contentCollection=Magazine&module=RelatedCoverage®ion=Marginalia&pgtype=article


It's true. Humans have innate knowledge of what is reasonable or not from the get go. It's a survival mechanism. Even though we are coveted as babies by our mothers, we'd still get into strife without that innate knowledge.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree with what you say about cliquish behavior, but I think there is something to be said for chasing disruptive characters away.



MarilynKnits said:


> Ooh, do we jump on Gersley for hovering on the topic the way those of us who bother visiting FFDP are accused of hovering and stalking?
> 
> As far as I am concerned, any topic is an open topic and anybody who has a constructive comment to make is welcome to do so. Note I said *constructive* comment.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> A private investigator? You get better and better. You've really brightened my day today.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: The left attracts such interesting skills. Welcome.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> How else can the rich get richer without having to share?
> 
> Their greed is unsatisfiable. If it were food they grabbed up, we'd all make fun of them, but since it's money, they still have their friends and fawners.


It irritates me immensely that we only get to hear about the fines that are imposed on these corporations. I'd really like to know whose heads (if any),
roll within these institutions as a result. And why aren't the perpetrators slapped with criminal charges? IMHO those responsible should face hefty prison sentences. I feel the steam coming out of my ears. :evil:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

No. My bet is she reports it.



DGreen said:


> The horse is dead, woman. Let it go.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

IMHO thereby proving gorp is someone close to her.



DGreen said:


> I already did that today. It was in support of same sex marriage, actually. Thankfully, I'm pretty sure it's far away from you.
> 
> Get a grip on reality and recognize that if the gorp doesn't feel the need to report something that doesn't involve you, you're probably butting in where you're not needed. Whoever gorp is, if he/she can run a computer she probably is an adult and can take care of her own business.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

lins said:


> I know, like I don't care if they are against abortion, it's their prerogative.
> It's none of my business so quit trying to make it my business, right?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> VL is characteristically sympathetic to the liberal view. It makes no sense that she would deliberately appear on this thread to insult and annoy. If you find yourself saying, "I can't believe she would do that" perhaps you shouldn't believe it. Gerslay is far more likely to take pleasure in attacking those on this thread. I definitely believe she would be party to an attack on libs. We already know Gerslay monitors this site so she can jump in and be disruptive.


None of them can stop it, D.They sit over in the Diaper pail putting everyone down, then cry foul if one of theirs, (which i am almost certain that gork is) trolls and we respond. 
Don't be surprised if she reported Purl for doing what gork had already done herself. Strange that gork isn't posting today. Maybe Admin read her disgusting post to SQ and gave her the boot.

Lisa would not interrupt us with rudeness. She would jump right in to the conversation.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Pshaw? Fiddlesticks!
> 
> Course she doesn't last long cause certain people keep their finger on the Report button just in case she shows up. She says things they don't want to hear.


And she has the passion and energy to keep truckin. Impressive IMHO

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It's much worse than this (at least in the US). They've passed a law that says, depositors are no longer depositors, but are creditors. If and when the banks collapse again (and they will), the bank can take the funds from our bank accounts, to bail themselves out. They call it a bail in. We'll never see our money again because all of the small creditors will be in line behind the big creditors. Its legalized theft. The reason I say that the banks WILL collapse, is because theyve been gambling on derivatives. According to the International Bank of Settlements, the total notional value of derivative contracts is $710 TRILLION. These are the top 5 American bank's exposure to derivatives: J P Morgan Chase - more than $67trillion, Citibank - nearly $60 billion, Goldman Sachs - more than $54 trillion, Bank of America - more than $54 trillion, Morgon Stanley - more than $44 trillion.
> 
> If you really want to be shocked, take a look at how much they have in assets.
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-25/5-us-banks-each-have-more-40-trillion-dollars-exposure-derivatives


The article was published in 2014 and I've squirreled around to find updated information but was unsuccessful. I have no real understanding of derivatives except that they are reliant on an 'underlying' commodity. Is it sort of a 'bet' one takes that said commodity will yield positive results?

Anyway, with the banks being bandits and the world being complacent about what's going on in the Middle East, things seem ripe for a major catastrophe.

I think I'll take a Bex, have a cup of tea and a good lie down!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

RainSounds said:


> Well, ya know ... they all sorta look a like even though one of my best friends is one of them.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Honestly??? I'm not convinced. First I saw the woman put a tray with the "good" block and the "bad" block. The baby reached for the block that was nearest her right hand first and when she reached for the other block with her left hand, the lady pulled the tray away and the film stopped. With the puppets, the lady held the "good" puppet in front of her and wiggled it around. That would definitely attract a baby's attention. This video wasn't enough to convince me of anything.


I think that a young baby's innate knowledge of what is good or bad relates more to the intangible. Like a sense that something isn't right which makes them cry for example, thus alerting their carer to take notice.

Whatever, this ability is there in all of us from birth. Of that I am convinced.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Buddhists do not have commandments, where the operative word is 'command'. They have precepts where they 'they undertake to refrain from' which recognises human frailty, meaning that if we fail then we accept that we have failed and endeavour to try harder in the future. In this regard free choice and intention is important. It is "I undertake" not Thou Shalt" - a personal choice, not an external command.
> 
> There are five Precepts for lay Buddhists. Observance of the five precepts constitutes the minimum moral obligation of a practicing lay Buddhist. These five precepts enjoin against killing living beings, taking what is not given (or stealing), sexual misconduct, false speech, and use of intoxicating drink or drugs


Eve, Buddhism is the only belief system that makes sense to me and that's because it's precepts are naturally aligned to the human condition.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> How do you explain Mexico, a predominantly catholic country? They are taught morals and yet there is an epidemic of horrible murders there, too.
> 
> Culture, politics, economics, social unrest, poverty. These lead to crime, too, in spite of the best teaching. Not every evil in the world can be laid at the feet of "lack of moral teaching."


Yes, but the morals Catholics are 'taught' (more like indoctrinated), are so contrived...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I retired from a major mutual fund company & I assure you that no one is meant to understand derivatives. It's a betting technique rather than an investing one.

If I am betting that oil prices will drop, they create a vehicle for doing this and sell it to me. (They are for a given time period. Win or lose, they pay off in much larger quantities than you invested. In other words, you may lose much more than you bet.) I avoid them like the plague.



Wombatnomore said:


> The article was published in 2014 and I've squirreled around to find updated information but was unsuccessful. I have no real understanding of derivatives except that they are reliant on an 'underlying' commodity. Is it sort of a 'bet' one takes that said commodity will yield positive results?
> 
> Anyway, with the banks being bandits and the world being complacent about what's going on in the Middle East, things seem ripe for a major catastrophe.
> 
> I think I'll take a Bex, have a cup of tea and a good lie down!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I retired from a major mutual fund company & I assure you that no one is meant to understand derivatives. It's a betting technique rather than an investing one.
> 
> If I am betting that oil prices will drop, they create a vehicle for doing this and sell it to me. (They are for a given time period. Win or lose, they pay off in much larger quantities than you invested. In other words, you may lose much more than you bet.) I avoid them like the plague.


Yes, I can see why you do. I think the stock market is deliberately confusing so as to discourage the masses to partake leaving more to the greedy.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I do have a spot for you Gerslay but you're being annoying! And it's not that common that you come over and tell us off anyway. As you know, provocative interlopers are a pain, especially those who are total strangers. At least with the usuals we know who we're dealing with. And the recent 'strangers' are so reminiscent of some that are known, their behaviour is a bit of an insult to the collective intelligence. Of course there will be a reaction here as there would be on D&P, so why are you intervening on the 'strangers'' behalf?


I've always been annoying...but as I recall it didn't bother you so much when it served your purpose.

I'm not intervening on the strangers behalf. IMO, the stranger is more reminiscent of your first attacker than anyone else. I'm not monitoring any threads and I'm not stepping into or disrupting any ongoing discussions. I'm speaking directly and only to Purl about an action of hers that contradicts her historic complaints. She's used to it. Ignore me...I'll go away soon!

PS: I love all your jackets. I'm a jacket freak myself and probably have more than 2 dozen jackets and coats in various styles and weights...only one is knitted. The cranberry one is my favorite but the latest, in blue, is a close second. Also, I like your idea of a simple stitch in a lovely yarn and forget about all the fussy complicated stuff!

BTW...you're annoying too!

::: smooch :::


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Pshaw? Fiddlesticks!
> 
> Course she doesn't last long cause certain people keep their finger on the Report button just in case she shows up. She says things they don't want to hear.


If that were the case then Admin would let her stay. The truth is she, like your other suspended friend, threatened to take down Admin's business. That's a big "no-no"!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

RainSounds said:


> Well, some might argue people 'invent' or 'adopt' beliefs in order to justify and excuse their inherent moralities.
> 
> Christians, have had and continue to have their fair share of horrible, immoral behavior in the name of religion.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm glad you took that opportunity to slam Christians. I'm sure you feel better now. But the topic of discussion, was whether or not, morals are the same, everywhere.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

RainSounds said:


> But not before reporting Lilith for asking you if you tend to say things and then get all shocked when people get upset at what you said ... and so you claim you never said it ... you're just perpetually misunderstood.
> 
> But for the record I think she's pointing out your hypocrisy for not holding Catholics to the same standards despite all the immoral killing and violence happening by Catholics in Mexico.


I did not report "Lilith"! If I were going to report you, I'd have done it much sooner!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

RainSounds said:


> But not before reporting Lilith for asking you if you tend to say things and then get all shocked when people get upset at what you said ... and so you claim you never said it ... you're just perpetually misunderstood.
> 
> But for the record I think she's pointing out your hypocrisy for not holding Catholics to the same standards despite all the immoral killing and violence happening by Catholics in Mexico.


I did not report "Lilith"! If I were going to report you, I'd have done it much sooner!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> I've always been annoying...but as I recall it didn't bother you so much when it served your purpose.
> 
> I'm not intervening on the strangers behalf. IMO, the stranger is more reminiscent of your first attacker than anyone else. I'm not monitoring any threads and I'm not stepping into or disrupting any ongoing discussions. I'm speaking directly and only to Purl about an action of hers that contradicts her historic complaints. She's used to it. Ignore me...I'll go away soon!
> 
> ...


I am not the type of person who seeks to 'serve my purpose' Gerslay. That's a construct in your mind.

To be honest, it's quite suspicious that you should appear directly after the 2 provocative intruders had graced the pages with you defending one of them at least. I know I'm annoying and I will continue to annoy when I see fit. Now I'll ignore the unpleasantness.

This obsession of mine with the jackets has led to an outright compulsive disorder with the fashion of the 1960's! I don't know how many '60's patterns I've amassed and I plan to knit them all. I am enamored with the textures that '60's knits feature but keeping it simple is more elegant than all the complicated stuff!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> This is a better description of what schools can do than "teaching morals." Thanks.


Really? What's the difference? She's saying that children have to be taught morals. She's pointing out that some children didn't "learn" them at home. You were saying that babies were born with morals.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

RainSounds said:


> Well, ya know ... they all sorta look a like even though one of my best friends is one of them.


A day cannot pass without you making a comment like this, can it? Take your racism elsewhere!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Hmm. I wonder what that says about you.


I don't have to wonder at all. It speaks very clearly to her need to foment hatred.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I am not the type of person who seeks to 'serve my purpose' Gerslay. That's a construct in your mind.
> 
> To be honest, it's quite suspicious that you should appear directly after the 2 provocative intruders had graced the pages with you defending one of them at least. I know I'm annoying and I will continue to annoy when I see fit. Now I'll ignore the unpleasantness.
> 
> This obsession of mine with the jackets has led to an outright compulsive disorder with the fashion of the 1960's! I don't know how many '60's patterns I've amassed and I plan to knit them all. I am enamored with the textures that '60's knits feature but keeping it simple is more elegant than all the complicated stuff!


Excuse me for thinking that when Lisa was reaming you a new one that someone having your back might have been meaningful to you. That is what is meant by "serving your purpose".

The many, not just 2, intruders are 99% of the time, Lisa! I choose not to skip over the obvious and I certainly don't defend Lisa. That you do is your business.

But nevermind...what else is obvious is that you have forgotten some of the subtleties of friendship.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I just received word that my dil is having contractions every few minutes. They are not strong enough for her to feel, but are being picked up by the monitor. The doctor is supposed to be in between 8-10. We'll see! This may be it? Or not?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> It irritates me immensely that we only get to hear about the fines that are imposed on these corporations. I'd really like to know whose heads (if any),
> roll within these institutions as a result. And why aren't the perpetrators slapped with criminal charges? IMHO those responsible should face hefty prison sentences. I feel the steam coming out of my ears. :evil:


These people are protected by by the governments of the world. They represent the banks that own our federal reserve and the central banks of most nations. They've been stealing from us, since their inception.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> None of them can stop it, D.They sit over in the Diaper pail putting everyone down, then cry foul if one of theirs, (which i am almost certain that gork is) trolls and we respond.
> Don't be surprised if she reported Purl for doing what gork had already done herself. Strange that gork isn't posting today. Maybe Admin read her disgusting post to SQ and gave her the boot.
> 
> Lisa would not interrupt us with rudeness. She would jump right in to the conversation.


IMO, gork is gone. She did what she came to do. Who knows who she'll be, next time.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombat, I just had to let you know, my grandson was sitting on my lap, and he loves your picture of a "kitty cat". I told him it was a wombat. As I scrolled down, he said "there's another wombat...there's another wombat etc...". He likes your pic. I gotta go. He wants my attention. Ttyl!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Gerslay said:


> Excuse me for thinking that when Lisa was reaming you a new one that someone having your back might have been meaningful to you. That is what is meant by "serving your purpose".
> 
> The many, not just 2, intruders are 99% of the time, Lisa! I choose not to skip over the obvious and I certainly don't defend Lisa. That you do is your business.
> 
> But nevermind...what else is obvious is that you have forgotten some of the subtleties of friendship.


Oh please. To me, someone who is 'serving [their] purpose,' is like a 'gold digger,' out to 'feather their own nest' or to steal whatever offerings that come there way. I think I made it very clear how appreciative I was during 'that' unpleasantness and way to Gerslay by digging that up again!

I haven't forgotten the subtleties of friendship, rather, I think you've got your nose out of joint because things might be a bit too close to the bone.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Wombat, I just had to let you know, my grandson was sitting on my lap, and he loves your picture of a "kitty cat". I told him it was a wombat. As I scrolled down, he said "there's another wombat...there's another wombat etc...". He likes your pic. I gotta go. He wants my attention. Ttyl!


That is so cute! I suppose I do look like a kitty cat in the avatar!


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Oh please. To me, someone who is 'serving [their] purpose,' is like a 'gold digger,' out to 'feather their own nest' or to steal whatever offerings that come there way. I think I made it very clear how appreciative I was during 'that' unpleasantness and way to Gerslay by digging that up again!
> 
> I haven't forgotten the subtleties of friendship, rather, I think you've got your nose out of joint because things might be a bit too close to the bone.


-----------------------------------

Shouldn't the definition of a phrase ultimately be determind by the person using the phrase? It remains as I stated: When I had your back you didn't mind me being annoying.

But, once again, and at your request, I'll stop bothering you.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I may be wrong but I took it as sarcasm.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> A day cannot pass without you making a comment like this, can it? Take your racism elsewhere!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> It's true. Humans have innate knowledge of what is reasonable or not from the get go. It's a survival mechanism. Even though we are coveted as babies by our mothers, we'd still get into strife without that innate knowledge.


I guess you and I are among those who believe people are innately good (until life gets in the way). There are also those who believe people are innately bad and have to be controlled. Again, it's a matter of opinion, and possibly how you were raised.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> It irritates me immensely that we only get to hear about the fines that are imposed on these corporations. I'd really like to know whose heads (if any),
> roll within these institutions as a result. And why aren't the perpetrators slapped with criminal charges? IMHO those responsible should face hefty prison sentences. I feel the steam coming out of my ears. :evil:


This incident? criminal act? was in the news a year or two ago. What's new now is that they're being punished for it. I can't go looking for it now, but it was exciting reading at the time. Pigs. :twisted:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> No. My bet is she reports it.


So far I'm still here. So maybe not.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> None of them can stop it, D.They sit over in the Diaper pail putting everyone down, then cry foul if one of theirs, (which i am almost certain that gork is) trolls and we respond.
> Don't be surprised if she reported Purl for doing what gork had already done herself. Strange that gork isn't posting today. Maybe Admin read her disgusting post to SQ and gave her the boot.
> 
> Lisa would not interrupt us with rudeness. She would jump right in to the conversation.


Exactly. The nameless one like to claim that all strangers who come on as unpleasant are Lisa, but she's wrong more often than right.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> And she has the passion and energy to keep truckin. Impressive IMHO
> 
> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Plus, she never says things like Pshaw.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> The article was published in 2014 and I've squirreled around to find updated information but was unsuccessful. I have no real understanding of derivatives except that they are reliant on an 'underlying' commodity. Is it sort of a 'bet' one takes that said commodity will yield positive results?
> 
> Anyway, with the banks being bandits and the world being complacent about what's going on in the Middle East, things seem ripe for a major catastrophe.
> 
> I think I'll take a Bex, have a cup of tea and a good lie down!


Most people - even economists - say they don't understand derivatives. It's more complicated than betting, and in fact the big money bets against things, not for them. I think derivatives are how banks take a set of individual mortgages, put them all together, then slices the deck and sells the slices, so that each buyer owns a little piece of the mortgages of hundreds or thousands or homeowners. Among other things.

Derivatives in calculus are much simpler to understand.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

I should have read this before I made a smartass of myself. Thank you.



damemary said:


> I retired from a major mutual fund company & I assure you that no one is meant to understand derivatives. It's a betting technique rather than an investing one.
> 
> If I am betting that oil prices will drop, they create a vehicle for doing this and sell it to me. (They are for a given time period. Win or lose, they pay off in much larger quantities than you invested. In other words, you may lose much more than you bet.) I avoid them like the plague.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I just received word that my dil is having contractions every few minutes. They are not strong enough for her to feel, but are being picked up by the monitor. The doctor is supposed to be in between 8-10. We'll see! This may be it? Or not?


Fingers crossed! she is in the right place. Hang in there friend.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Really? What's the difference? She's saying that children have to be taught morals. She's pointing out that some children didn't "learn" them at home. You were saying that babies were born with morals.


I think you are referring to my post.

I did not point out that children have to be taught 'morals' nor did I point out that some children did not learn them at home. What I had endeavoured to point out was that some children learn anti social behaviour at home and the schools should endeavour to teach those children that anti social activities and behaviour is not acceptable. Children learn anti social behaviour in their home environment. Alcoholism, drug abuse, domestic violence are anti social behaviours.

'Morals' have become the catch cry of the ultra conservative religious sects. Some religions have an extremely wide definition of morals, they do not confine it to antisocial behaviour. They label many things as 'immoral' when that label does not apply, eg, the dress code of many of today's younger women, the sexual orientation of many people, the marital status of many people. Morals and morality are not the correct labels in these instances. Morality can be defined as principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior. Wearing an extremely short dress in neither wrong nor bad behaviour. As I said, unfortunately some people label it as immoral.

I have always said 'Religion needs morals to support it but morals do not need religion to support them'.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> If that were the case then Admin would let her stay. The truth is she, like your other suspended friend, threatened to take down Admin's business. That's a big "no-no"!


I don't remember Lisa doing that, though Janet was very open about it. But I'm sure that's not why you people keep reporting her over and over.

As for your message to the Wombat, it wasn't just that my real name was posted - I find it creepy that someone would go to the trouble to dig out that information (she didn't just Google name and/or city); I'm sure you can understand, since it happened to you. But I use my real name in several on-line venues and have never had problems over it.

What I object to is her saying, and seeming to believe, that Jews are White Supremacists. This is not only not true, it's an insult to the entire Jewish community. Most informed people know that White Supremacy is connected to Neo-Naziism. "Informed" is not a word I'd use for your nameless friend.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I guess you and I are among those who believe people are innately good (until life gets in the way). There are also those who believe people are innately bad and have to be controlled. Again, it's a matter of opinion, and possibly how you were raised.


I am with you as I definitely agree that people are innately good. Even as a child I could not accept 'original sin'. I could neither understand nor accept the idea of pouring water over a baby's head 'cleansed' the baby from 'original sin'. I also could not accept the need for children to be forced to go to confession every week. I still remember my first confession when I was 7 years old and the nun asking me what sins I was going to confess to the priest. I told the nun that I was a child and I did not have any sins to confess and I was going to tell the priest that. She then told me that my mother had contacted her and told that my sins were 'that I had been disobedient, had told lies and had not said my prayers'. The nun then asked what I was mumbling under my breath and that is when I did tell a lie. I said I was just remembering my sins whereas I as actually mumbling "lying bitch, my mother would never do that in a thousand years. Children are not sinners, my grandfather told me that children are not sinners". My Daddah was a far more understanding and knowledgeable person than that nun.

Children are not sinful, nor are they evil. They many be mean and spiteful, but not evil.

I also agree that people can become truly evil when they commit anti social and evil acts. Unfortunately children are impressionable and will obey adults and they are thus indoctrinated into evil ways and anti social behaviour.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Really? What's the difference? She's saying that children have to be taught morals. She's pointing out that some children didn't "learn" them at home. You were saying that babies were born with morals.


And I still believe that, barring _in utero_ damage. But Eve was speaking about behavior, not morals. In fact, in your examples that's what you were speaking about, too.

Some kids have had to push aside what they know is wrong in order to please parents or peers, or at least to protect themselves. Add to that what the kids have to face from the authorities, and it's almost impossible to do the moral thing. Then guilt comes in, an uncomfortable feeling, and the mind does what it can to suppress that. After all this, of course they've forgotten, or tried to forget, what constitutes both acceptable behavior and morality.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> A day cannot pass without you making a comment like this, can it? Take your racism elsewhere!


The thoughtful smiley should have tipped you off that she was joking. After having no sleep, watching Max for days, and knitting knitting knitting for the Fearsome Four, your sense of humor must be stretched to the tearing point.

She's no more racist than you or me or anyone else here.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't have to wonder at all. It speaks very clearly to her need to foment hatred.


Really? it speaks just the opposite to me.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I just received word that my dil is having contractions every few minutes. They are not strong enough for her to feel, but are being picked up by the monitor. The doctor is supposed to be in between 8-10. We'll see! This may be it? Or not?


My thoughts are with that young woman. I hope everything - or should that be every one? - comes out all right.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I am with you as I definitely agree that people are innately good. Even as a child I could not accept 'original sin'. I could neither understand nor accept the idea of pouring water over a baby's head 'cleansed' the baby from 'original sin'. I also could not accept the need for children to be forced to go to confession every week. I still remember my first confession when I was 7 years old and the nun asking me what sins I was going to confess to the priest. I told the nun that I was a child and I did not have any sins to confess and I was going to tell the priest that. She then told me that my mother had contacted her and told that my sins were 'that I had been disobedient, had told lies and had not said my prayers'. The nun then asked what I was mumbling under my breath and that is when I did tell a lie. I said I was just remembering my sins whereas I as actually mumbling "lying bitch, my mother would never do that in a thousand years. Children are not sinners, my grandfather told me that children are not sinners". My Daddah was a far more understanding and knowledgeable person than that nun.
> 
> Children are not sinful, nor are they evil. They many be mean and spiteful, but not evil.
> 
> I also agree that people can become truly evil when they commit anti social and evil acts. Unfortunately children are impressionable and will obey adults and they are thus indoctrinated into evil ways and anti social behaviour.


How clearly you put it! Thank you.


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I believe that morality is taught. Our schools are dealing with lots of kids who weren't taught morals, and are actually teaching them in elementary school. If children were born with morals, how can we explain all of the kids, killing kids? Or kids stealing? Or kids hurting each other?
> 
> I think a lot of parents have not been teaching their children morals.


All behavior is learned behavior. Babies are not born smoking Marlboros, toilet trained, or making their own sandwiches.
For some people, morality is 'caught', rather than 'taught'. Conformity is not morality.
The Jukes and the Kallikaks are a fun starting point, two favorite hobby horses of bygone eras, I wrote papers about both families in Forensic Psych in college. Google them.

Children are bombarded with images and behavior of culture and society. This is not a piece of news to any cognizant individual in the 21st century. 
Media, celebrities, video games, every day we wake up in a new world, recipients of technology that would probably make my grandmother's head explode if she were alive.

I understand what you meant by morality. Really. Perhaps there are some things you have not considered.

Putting on my sociologist hat.

There is a 'good kid in a bad neighborhood' theory, and it rings true. It happens every day, has been around since people existed, and there are variations...

... latchkey child, any ethnicity, male or female, single parent home, lower class neighborhood and public school, never gets into trouble in spite of being bombarded by sex, gangs, teen pregnancy, high crime, racism, addiction, 50% or more drop out rate, sexism, very little parental input, public assistance, including Section 8 housing, subsidized school lunch and a bowl of cereal. They come home to an empty apartment, heat up a Hot Pocket or a box of store-brand macaroni and cheese.

... subtract the single parent and substitute grandparent.

...or the single parent is an addict.

... or the child has been in and out of foster care.

That child, and thousands more in some combination of similar circumstances are living and thriving in neighborhoods all over the US, zero religious activity, very little parental input, any decade or century, any continent.

They don't live in Pleasantville, and June Cleaver is not home, wearing pearls while vacuuming the living room and frosting a chocolate layer cake.

Some of them are able to step up and out of their circumstances and through scholarships and internships, become successful doctors, attorneys, business professionals, etc. Flowers bloom in the barrios and in the ghettos.

Some of them succumb to (generational) poverty, addiction, abuse, ad nauseum, ad infinitum. Of course. This is a fact, and there are statistics to back it up.

Conversely, there are a number professional moral reprobates, people throughout history, born with a silver spoon, and all sorts of parental moral input. Many of them from religious households.

So who is to blame for this moral failure ?

"It is our choices that show what we truly are more than our abilities"~~~ Dumbledore


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I don't remember Lisa doing that, though Janet was very open about it. But I'm sure that's not why you people keep reporting her over and over.
> 
> As for your message to the Wombat, it wasn't just that my real name was posted - I find it creepy that someone would go to the trouble to dig out that information (she didn't just Google name and/or city); I'm sure you can understand, since it happened to you. But I use my real name in several on-line venues and have never had problems over it.
> 
> What I object to is her saying, and seeming to believe, that Jews are White Supremacists. This is not only not true, it's an insult to the entire Jewish community. Most informed people know that White Supremacy is connected to Neo-Naziism. "Informed" is not a word I'd use for your nameless friend.


Wrong as usual on several points but I'll just speak to one. You're deliberately confusing her suspension with your being offended. The suspension was for giving out personal information and had nothing to do with your personal squabble re Christian Identity vs Jewish Supremacy. But, you don't seem to want to own any of your responsibility in that matter...so be it!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I just heard...no babies today. Still going for 34 weeks. Two more weeks.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I just heard...no babies today. Still going for 34 weeks. Two more weeks.


I'm relieved. 34 weeks gives the babies a better chance of being born healthy. Mother and babies are all where they need to be for now.

Hope the time passes quickly and uneventfully. It's still amazing and wonderful to know things have gone so well.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The understanding of a mathematician is helpful. Never invest or trust someone who invests in something people educated in the field don't understand. It's a hoodwink.


Poor Purl said:


> I should have read this before I made a smartass of myself. Thank you.


 :wink: :wink: :wink:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> I don't remember Lisa doing that, though Janet was very open about it. But I'm sure that's not why you people keep reporting her over and over.
> 
> As for your message to the Wombat, it wasn't just that my real name was posted - I find it creepy that someone would go to the trouble to dig out that information (she didn't just Google name and/or city); I'm sure you can understand, since it happened to you. But I use my real name in several on-line venues and have never had problems over it.
> 
> What I object to is her saying, and seeming to believe, that Jews are White Supremacists. This is not only not true, it's an insult to the entire Jewish community. Most informed people know that White Supremacy is connected to Neo-Naziism. "Informed" is not a word I'd use for your nameless friend.


    Shame on them.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Your friends support you.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I am with you as I definitely agree that people are innately good. Even as a child I could not accept 'original sin'. I could neither understand nor accept the idea of pouring water over a baby's head 'cleansed' the baby from 'original sin'. I also could not accept the need for children to be forced to go to confession every week. I still remember my first confession when I was 7 years old and the nun asking me what sins I was going to confess to the priest. I told the nun that I was a child and I did not have any sins to confess and I was going to tell the priest that. She then told me that my mother had contacted her and told that my sins were 'that I had been disobedient, had told lies and had not said my prayers'. The nun then asked what I was mumbling under my breath and that is when I did tell a lie. I said I was just remembering my sins whereas I as actually mumbling "lying bitch, my mother would never do that in a thousand years. Children are not sinners, my grandfather told me that children are not sinners". My Daddah was a far more understanding and knowledgeable person than that nun.
> 
> Children are not sinful, nor are they evil. They many be mean and spiteful, but not evil.
> 
> I also agree that people can become truly evil when they commit anti social and evil acts. Unfortunately children are impressionable and will obey adults and they are thus indoctrinated into evil ways and anti social behaviour.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Dangrktty said:


> All behavior is learned behavior. Babies are not born smoking Marlboros, toilet trained, or making their own sandwiches.
> For some people, morality is 'caught', rather than 'taught'. Conformity is not morality.
> The Jukes and the Kallikaks are a fun starting point, two favorite hobby horses of bygone eras, I wrote papers about both families in Forensic Psych in college. Google them.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for taking time to write this explanation.



Dangrktty said:


> All behavior is learned behavior. Babies are not born smoking Marlboros, toilet trained, or making their own sandwiches.
> For some people, morality is 'caught', rather than 'taught'. Conformity is not morality.
> The Jukes and the Kallikaks are a fun starting point, two favorite hobby horses of bygone eras, I wrote papers about both families in Forensic Psych in college. Google them.
> 
> ...


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I just received word that my dil is having contractions every few minutes. They are not strong enough for her to feel, but are being picked up by the monitor. The doctor is supposed to be in between 8-10. We'll see! This may be it? Or not?


It is an exciting and scary time. I am happy for your family that the pregnancy has maintained this many weeks. Every day is another positive for a good outcome. I hope you welcome four lustily healthy little people.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, gork is gone. She did what she came to do. Who knows who she'll be, next time.


A certain demographic among us reminds me of Batman's colorful foes. Strange, outspoken, and evil, with odd names and identities.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Exactly. The nameless one like to claim that all strangers who come on as unpleasant are Lisa, but she's wrong more often than right.


Perhaps Lisa is a descendent of the Scarlet Pimpernel. He's here! He's there! He's everywhere!


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> A certain demographic among us reminds me of Batman's colorful foes. Strange, outspoken, and evil, with odd names and identities.


With minions in fabulous costumes.
:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I should have read this before I made a smartass of myself. Thank you.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: You're not a 'smartass' and it was good of you to explain.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Dangrktty said:


> All behavior is learned behavior. Babies are not born smoking Marlboros, toilet trained, or making their own sandwiches.
> For some people, morality is 'caught', rather than 'taught'. Conformity is not morality.
> The Jukes and the Kallikaks are a fun starting point, two favorite hobby horses of bygone eras, I wrote papers about both families in Forensic Psych in college. Google them.
> 
> ...


Excellent! So well said and considered.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I just heard...no babies today. Still going for 34 weeks. Two more weeks.


They were probably Braxton Hicks contractions - uterus exercising for the real thing!

Good luck with it all KFN and to your dear DIL and son. May the little babies be safe and snug once here. :-D


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> A certain demographic among us reminds me of Batman's colorful foes. Strange, outspoken, and evil, with odd names and identities.


Oh Dear, Wombatnomore! :shock:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

RainSounds said:


> Could be.
> 
> She could also have a username or two that has never been discovered or deleted.
> 
> ...


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

KFN I hope your babies and DIL are ok. That is good she is able to keep them inside for 2 more weeks.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Country Bumpkin


Taking your advice.

JESUS!


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## lins (Jan 8, 2013)

RainSounds said:


> Well, ya know ... they all sorta look a like even though one of my best friends is one of them.


You must be a nice person to have as a friend to say what you did... :twisted:


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## lins (Jan 8, 2013)

RainSounds said:


> Wombat and I came to an understanding a while ago.
> 
> She's consistently a great gal.
> 
> ...


"Even with my aliases, I am who I am, I say what I mean and mean what I say. You on the other hand, are a silvery snake."

Why do you have to come to a forum and use several an aliases?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Wrong as usual on several points but I'll just speak to one. You're deliberately confusing her suspension with your being offended. The suspension was for giving out personal information and had nothing to do with your personal squabble re Christian Identity vs Jewish Supremacy. But, you don't seem to want to own any of your responsibility in that matter...so be it!


Thanks for an answer to the wrong question.

You implied that I shouldn't have given out a link to the address of gork, because of all the "bitchen" I did. I only wanted to point out that I'm over the name thing but I'm not over the anti-Semitism. I said nothing about anyone's suspension; that's more on your mind than on mine.

My responsibility in the matter? It's that I'm Jewish. You don't want to believe that Christian Identity was a new, and shocking, thing to me, and that's why I gave the link. I had never seen it before, and when I linked to it I had no intention of connecting it with all Christians. That was where my responsibility went.

I certainly didn't expect to be told that the owner was a Jew, and that Jews are white supremacists, and that I knew about that site and had some ulterior motive for the link. You can believe anything you want about me; just don't expect me to take responsibility for your mistaken beliefs. But when it comes to vilifying the entire community of Jews, I won't sit still.

Why do I bother? Look, if you believe I'm responsible, tell me why, don't just coyly hint.

And if you want to post where real events, as opposed to KP events, are being discussed, how about sticking to the topic?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Shame on them.
> 
> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Your friends support you.


I never doubted that, but thank you for saying it.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Perhaps Lisa is a descendent of the Scarlet Pimpernel. He's here! He's there! He's everywhere!


Is she in heaven or in hell? That damned elusive Pimpernel.

I love that movie, in part because I love Leslie Howard.

Have you ever seen Pimpernel Smith?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

RainSounds said:


> Only in response to your need to slam others who are different from you.
> 
> To make a claim that Muslims, due to their religion, are immoral or that the religion itself is immoral.. despite the fact that there are literally over a BILLION of them that are not extremist and no more or less moral than you, is out and out overt bigotry. (_and yes that IS what you said and did, so don't bother claiming you were misinterpreted ... again._)
> 
> ...


The only problem is, I never said that muslims were immoral OR that their religion was immoral. I merely pointed out that what is moral in one country or culture is not moral in another country or culture. I also pointed out that morals were often based upon religion.

I was after all, responding to a post that claimed morals were the same, everywhere. You took my words out of context, as always. You should take your own advise.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> A certain demographic among us reminds me of Batman's colorful foes. Strange, outspoken, and evil, with odd names and identities.


We all know who the Joker is, and probably who the Riddler is. But who's the Penguin?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

RainSounds said:


> Only racists argue that pointing out racism is racism in and of itself.
> 
> Says you! You're obsessed. Seek help!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> They were probably Braxton Hicks contractions - uterus exercising for the real thing!
> 
> Good luck with it all KFN and to your dear DIL and son. May the little babies be safe and snug once here. :-D


Thank you, Wombat!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> KFN I hope your babies and DIL are ok. That is good she is able to keep them inside for 2 more weeks.


Thanks, CB!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wow! There seems to be a case of the bitchies going around. 

Gerslay, take a hike. Your work here is done. I have no idea why you would be so upset about a troll posting her real name and where she lives. Seems like a case of the mouth working before the brain. Had you read back a page or two before you jumped all over Purl, you would have seen that. She is gone and I say good riddance. Maybe Admin looked up her IP address and you are mad because someone who is your friend may have been banned. 

KFN, take a breath. This is going to be a beautiful time for you and your family. Don't let words on a computer screen upset you. There are 4 bundles of extreme love and happiness coming your way. You will need to be calm and collected for DS and DIL and Max. (And for yourself!)

Wombat, we have your back!
As for the rest of you, You go girls!!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Wow! There seems to be a case of the bitchies going around.
> 
> Gerslay, take a hike. Your work here is done. I have no idea why you would be so upset about a troll posting her real name and where she lives. Seems like a case of the mouth working before the brain. Had you read back a page or two before you jumped all over Purl, you would have seen that. She is gone and I say good riddance. Maybe Admin looked up her IP address and you are mad because someone who is your friend may have been banned.
> 
> ...


You conveniently left someone out.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You conveniently left someone out.


Included in the "rest of you". Unless you are referring to me. 
I am in a great mood today! The fighting just gets old, especially when it is about something that happened about a year ago.


----------



## lins (Jan 8, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Included in the "rest of you". Unless you are referring to me. b
> I am in a great mood today! The fighting just gets old, especially when it is about something that happened about a year ago.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

l dont understand this fighting at all.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

*


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

! I post this quite often because it rings so true.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Wrong as usual on several points but I'll just speak to one. You're deliberately confusing her suspension with your being offended. The suspension was for giving out personal information and had nothing to do with your personal squabble re Christian Identity vs Jewish Supremacy. But, you don't seem to want to own any of your responsibility in that matter...so be it!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

RainSounds said:


> Wombat and I came to an understanding a while ago.
> 
> She's consistently a great gal.
> 
> ...


Thank you RainSounds. Hope you're well!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Thank you RainSounds. Hope you're well!


GOOD Morning, Wombat!!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Thanks for an answer to the wrong question.
> 
> You implied that I shouldn't have given out a link to the address of gork, because of all the "bitchen" I did. I only wanted to point out that I'm over the name thing but I'm not over the anti-Semitism. I said nothing about anyone's suspension; that's more on your mind than on mine.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Wow! There seems to be a case of the bitchies going around.
> 
> Gerslay, take a hike. Your work here is done. I have no idea why you would be so upset about a troll posting her real name and where she lives. Seems like a case of the mouth working before the brain. Had you read back a page or two before you jumped all over Purl, you would have seen that. She is gone and I say good riddance. Maybe Admin looked up her IP address and you are mad because someone who is your friend may have been banned.
> 
> ...


Thanks Brat! Hope you're well! BTW great post.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> *


 :XD: :XD: :XD: That pic is just lovely!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

RainSounds said:


> I am! Thanks. Been enjoying your posts. Hope everything is great with you too!


They are thank you. It's good to see you more consistently. There was a bit of a gap there for a while!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Thanks Brat! Hope you're well! BTW great post.


I am as well as I can be, Wombat. I was just reading something about Australia and the minimum wage and how well it has been accepted.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> ! I post this quite often because it rings so true.


Isn't it a shame that it's necessary for someone to defend their ideals? If people got their heads out of their a...s and worked together, the political and religious dynamic in the world would be so much less traumatic.

I've often quoted my politics lecturer when he said "a government is only as good as it's opposition." The way politicians behave is just lame. Think of all the respect they'd earn if they actually sat down together and collectively worked towards the good of the people as they're paid to do. I can see clouds in my coffee. I need another Bex!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Isn't it a shame that it's necessary for someone to defend their ideals? If people got their heads out of their a...s and worked together, the political and religious dynamic in the world would be so much less traumatic.
> 
> I've often quoted my politics lecturer when he said "a government is only as good as it's opposition." The way politicians behave is just lame. Think of all the respect they'd earn if they actually sat down together and collectively worked towards the good of the people as they're paid to do. I can see clouds in my coffee. I need another Bex!


Ill' bite. What is a Bex?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I am as well as I can be, Wombat. I was just reading something about Australia and the minimum wage and how well it has been accepted.


Glad to hear it. Yes, things are actually quite good here in Australia on the political front although that will definitely change. I think this government, while brash and painful in the beginning of taking office have learned a hard lesson and are actually listening. It's helped we've had independents and a couple of smaller party candidates holding the balance of power in the senate. In fact, in the opinion polls, the government has roared past the opposition just in the last 24 hours.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

RainSounds said:


> I've been around, but just extra busy lately.


It's good to see you.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Ill' bite. What is a Bex?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: Bex is an old headache powder which was popular in the '50's and '60's. There used to be an ad where people were encouraged to take a bex, have a cup of tea and a good lie down! It continued to be available commercially until the '80's. Not any longer though.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Isn't it a shame that it's necessary for someone to defend their ideals? If people got their heads out of their a...s and worked together, the political and religious dynamic in the world would be so much less traumatic.
> 
> I've often quoted my politics lecturer when he said "a government is only as good as it's opposition." The way politicians behave is just lame. Think of all the respect they'd earn if they actually sat down together and collectively worked towards the good of the people as they're paid to do. I can see clouds in my coffee. I need another Bex!


I can see 2 or 3 politicians here who would want to just that.
Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, and Hillary Clinton.
One of the Senators of my state belongs to the "Group of 8" which is a bi-partisan group with the aim to get things done for the people.
Her name is Amy Klobuchar. She is one of the good guys.
What is getting me upset is that all of the shenanigans going on with the Koch's and Citizens United, is that whoever does get elected in whatever
job has their votes already bought and paid for.
I was reading that the Senate Majority leader, Mitch McConnell had an extra 4 million fall into his pockets last year and it wasn't from stock dividends.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: Bex is an old headache powder which was popular in the '50's and '60's. There used to be an ad where people were encouraged to take a bex, have a cup of tea and a good lie down! It continued to be available commercially until the '80's. Not any longer though.


Oh,okay. I thought it was just a shortened name for Becks beer!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Oh,okay. I thought it was just a shortened name for Becks beer!


I imagined it to be a biscuit or cookie of some sort.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I an see 2 or 3 politicians here who would want to just that.
> Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, and Hillary Clinton.
> What is getting me upset is that all of the shenanigans going on with the Koch's and Citizens United, is that whoever does get elected in whatever
> job has their votes already bought and paid for.
> I was reading that the Senate Majority leader, Mitch McConnell had an extra 4 million fall into his pockets last year and it wasn't from stock dividends.


Oh, don't get me started. I had a bit of a rant (can't remember where but it was on KP) about the major banks who were fined billions for manipulating derivatives in the stock market just in the last day or so. I just can't get my head around the fact that even when these wheelings and dealings are illegal, there's no criminal prosecutions!

As for the political 'donations' it just stinks. Is there anyone out there investigating it?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Oh,okay. I thought it was just a shortened name for Becks beer!


I like Becks beer! Didn't like the Bex though.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I imagined it to be a biscuit or cookie of some sort.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: And I'm sure there's a bic or a cookie with that name on it somewhere dear sloth.

How are you?


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I like Becks beer! Didn't like the Bex though.


My community has strong German ties. In August they start Oktoberfest in different parts of the state. It's always set up as a beer garten. I just giggle when I think of these big blond busty wenches carrying 4 pitchers of Becks in each hand while moving their bottoms to the polka music.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> ! I post this quite often because it rings so true.


I agree with the sentiments expressed, the only thing is that I have to make a few minor alterations. I have to cross out the word 'Liberal' and substitute it with the word 'Labor'. You see, in Australia the 'Liberals ' are the right wing, conservative party, the ones who wear the blue ties and most definitely not liberal or progressive in their thinking. They are the ones in bed with the big end of town, the ones in the pocket of big business. The Labor Party are the left wing party, the free thinkers. The Greens were far more progressive and forward thinking under the leadership of Bob Brown but they seem to have lost their punch lately, especially under Christine Milne. So, put me down as a fully paid up and card carrying member of the Australian Labor Party, the party on the left where the guys are more likely to wear red ties and the party that gave us the first female Prime Minister. Bill Shorten for Prime Minister at the next election, whenever that is, Tony Rabbit has the call then, he chooses the date for the next election, it just has to be before March 2017.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I agree with the sentiments expressed, the only thing is that I have to make a few minor alterations. I have to cross out the word 'Liberal' and substitute it with the word 'Labor'. You see, in Australia the 'Liberals ' are the right wing, conservative party, the ones who wear the blue ties and most definitely not liberal or progressive in their thinking. They are the ones in bed with the big end of town, the ones in the pocket of big business. The Labor Party are the left wing party, the free thinkers. The Greens were far more progressive and forward thinking under the leadership of Bob Brown but they seem to have lost their punch lately, especially under Christine Milne. So, put me down as a fully paid up and card carrying member of the Australian Labor Party, the party on the left where the guys are more likely to wear red ties and the party that gave us the first female Prime Minister. Bill Shorten for Prime Minister at the next election, whenever that is, Tony Rabbit has the call then, he chooses the date for the next election, it just has to be before March 2017.


IT is so interesting to me to hear and learn about how other countries run.
I have noticed here that the Democrats (Liberal) always wore blue ties and the republicans wore red. Now some of the Republicans are wearing green. Maybe that represents the Tea Party. I am a paid up member card carrying member of the ACLU.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Bratty, Johnny Depp himself is a little on the nose in Australia after he smuggled his two dogs into the country, illegally bypassing customs and quarantine restrictions. This news item may have missed the press in the USA, but he was in trouble down here. He was given until last Saturday to remove the dogs from the country or they would be destroyed. The USA has rabies but Australia does not have rabies so there could have been a hazard there. I think he is in line to cop a fine over illegally bringing his dogs into the country.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Bratty, Johnny Depp himself is a little on the nose in Australia after he smuggled his two dogs into the country, illegally bypassing customs and quarantine restrictions. This news item may have missed the press in the USA, but he was in trouble down here. He was given until last Saturday to remove the dogs from the country or they would be destroyed. The USA has rabies but Australia does not have rabies so there could have been a hazard there. I think he is in line to cop a fine over illegally bringing his dogs into the country.


He should have respected the laws. Some celebrities think they are above the law. At first I thought euthenization was a little harsh, but once some one said that rabies doesn't exist in Australia, I saw the sense in it. I heard that he got the dogs out. He should get fined. Sneaking them in wasn't the brightest thing to do.
Bad boy that he may be, nobody else could be Jack Sparrow. And I think he plays the role brilliantly.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I agree with the sentiments expressed, the only thing is that I have to make a few minor alterations. I have to cross out the word 'Liberal' and substitute it with the word 'Labor'. You see, in Australia the 'Liberals ' are the right wing, conservative party, the ones who wear the blue ties and most definitely not liberal or progressive in their thinking. They are the ones in bed with the big end of town, the ones in the pocket of big business. The Labor Party are the left wing party, the free thinkers. The Greens were far more progressive and forward thinking under the leadership of Bob Brown but they seem to have lost their punch lately, especially under Christine Milne. So, put me down as a fully paid up and card carrying member of the Australian Labor Party, the party on the left where the guys are more likely to wear red ties and the party that gave us the first female Prime Minister. Bill Shorten for Prime Minister at the next election, whenever that is, Tony Rabbit has the call then, he chooses the date for the next election, it just has to be before March 2017.


I was a fierce Labour supporter until the Rudd/Gillard debacle. Since then I usually vote for independents and/or a smaller party (last election I voted for the Sex Party and they got a seat in the Reps)!!! I like Bill Shorten but I think he needs to stop the rhetoric against the government and get on with the job of being a responsible leader of the opposition. He seems to be 'playing politics' a bit too hard. Don't like it.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I was a fierce Labour supporter until the Rudd/Gillard debacle. Since then I usually vote for independents and/or a smaller party (last election I voted for the Sex Party and they got a seat in the Reps)!!! I like Bill Shorten but I think he needs to stop the rhetoric against the government and get on with the job of being a responsible leader of the opposition. He seems to be 'playing politics' a bit too hard. Don't like it.


Okay, this may be the codeine speaking, but you have elections for Sex Parties? (or should I say erections?") Please explain what the Sex Party is about.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> My community has strong German ties. In August they start Oktoberfest in different parts of the state. It's always set up as a beer garten. I just giggle when I think of these big blond busty wenches carrying 4 pitchers of Becks in each hand while moving their bottoms to the polka music.


I was fortunate enough to be in Germany during Oktober Fest in the '90's and I put away about 4 of those steins! Didn't even feel tipsy. Then I'm told that the alcohol content is quite low. :hunf:

There were blond busty wenches and some pretty cute hulking german guys in those leather shorts in abundance!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Okay, this may be the codeine speaking, but you have elections for Sex Parties? (or should I say erections?") Please explain what the Sex Party is about.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: It's a legitimate small political party which has made serious gains in the last few years electorally.

More about it here:

http://www.sexparty.org.au/


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

RainSounds said:


> Oh, I didn't know Oz had no rabies.


Some of our fruit bats are considered to have a type of rabies. I used to have to inoculate Parks officers with the Rabies vaccine.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Okay, this may be the codeine speaking, but you have elections for Sex Parties? (or should I say erections?") Please explain what the Sex Party is about.


The Australian Sex Party is a Australian political party founded in 2009 in response to concerns over the increasing influence of religion in politics. The party was born out of an adult-industry lobby group, the Eros Association. Its leader, Fiona Patten, is the association's CEO, while the party's registered officer, Robert Swan, is the association's media director. Patten describes the party as a "civil libertarian alternative". Patten is a veteran campaigner on issues such as censorship, equality, and discrimination. Patten was elected to the Victorian Legislative Council at the 2014 state election.
The party was federally deregistered by the Australian Electoral Commission on 5 May 2015, after an audit found that it could not demonstrate that it met the statutory requirement of 500 members. It remains registered in Victoria, where it continues to have parliamentary representation, and in the Northern Territory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Sex_Party


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> The Australian Sex Party is a Australian political party founded in 2009 in response to concerns over the increasing influence of religion in politics. The party was born out of an adult-industry lobby group, the Eros Association. Its leader, Fiona Patten, is the association's CEO, while the party's registered officer, Robert Swan, is the association's media director. Patten describes the party as a "civil libertarian alternative". Patten is a veteran campaigner on issues such as censorship, equality, and discrimination. Patten was elected to the Victorian Legislative Council at the 2014 state election.
> The party was federally deregistered by the Australian Electoral Commission on 5 May 2015, after an audit found that it could not demonstrate that it met the statutory requirement of 500 members. It remains registered in Victoria, where it continues to have parliamentary representation, and in the Northern Territory.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Sex_Party


Thanks Eve. I just read the link that Wombat posted. I like what they stand for. I don't like how the AEC determined that there were not enough members. 26 calls with 4 positive members doesn't begin to cover the 600 members they purportedly had. Oh, well. At least they haven't been completely wiped out.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Well ladies, it has been fun. I am going to try and get some sleep. I have a doctor appointment early in the AM.
Have a great night! I am glad to have had the time with you.
Good night!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: And I'm sure there's a bic or a cookie with that name on it somewhere dear sloth.
> 
> How are you?


I am okay when I don't listen to the news. I get the drift from y'all. Too scary and depressing. Et tu?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Okay, this may be the codeine speaking, but you have elections for Sex Parties? (or should I say erections?") Please explain what the Sex Party is about.


The Sex Party is something some of us are too old to be invited to.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

RainSounds said:


> Only in response to your need to slam others who are different from you.
> 
> To make a claim that Muslims, due to their religion, are immoral or that the religion itself is immoral.. despite the fact that there are literally over a BILLION of them that are not extremist and no more or less moral than you, is out and out overt bigotry. (_and yes that IS what you said and did, so don't bother claiming you were misinterpreted ... again._)
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I must admit that I sometimes imagine Ghosts of Christmas Past hiding and revealing themselves from time to time just to remind everyone that nothing on the Internet is ever deleted permanently.



RainSounds said:


> Could be.
> 
> She could also have a username or two that has never been discovered or deleted.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

lins said:


> You must be a nice person to have as a friend to say what you did... :twisted:


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Country Bumpkin
> 
> Taking your advice.
> 
> JESUS!


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

lins said:


> "Even with my aliases, I am who I am, I say what I mean and mean what I say. You on the other hand, are a silvery snake."
> 
> Why do you have to come to a forum and use several an aliases?


Forgive me for jumping in on this question. It is not unusual for members to use several user names, usually at different times.

For instance, once upon a time as the discussion became war-like, some people thought they could have some peace from stalkers by changing names. However everyone continues to get more tech savvy and the battles still rage. I just try to warn newbies of the rules of engagement so they won't get clobbered.

Suffice to say, things are complicated and seldom what they appear to be at first. Just be cautious and protect yourself as much as you possibly can. IMHO


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Children of the Devil, rock on.



BrattyPatty said:


> Wow! There seems to be a case of the bitchies going around.
> 
> Gerslay, take a hike. Your work here is done. I have no idea why you would be so upset about a troll posting her real name and where she lives. Seems like a case of the mouth working before the brain. Had you read back a page or two before you jumped all over Purl, you would have seen that. She is gone and I say good riddance. Maybe Admin looked up her IP address and you are mad because someone who is your friend may have been banned.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Included in the "rest of you". Unless you are referring to me.
> I am in a great mood today! The fighting just gets old, especially when it is about something that happened about a year ago.


And it wasn't important in the first place. I much prefer meaningful discussions. I can't bother with, "you don't know me," "you said, I said," ad nauseum.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Well worth repeating. Liberals should hold their heads high.



BrattyPatty said:


> ! I post this quite often because it rings so true.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> IT is so interesting to me to hear and learn about how other countries run.
> I have noticed here that the Democrats (Liberal) always wore blue ties and the republicans wore red. Now some of the Republicans are wearing green. Maybe that represents the Tea Party. I am a paid up member card carrying member of the ACLU.


I'm an ACLU-lover too. I never thought we'd join the NRA, but some people do. Minds snapped shut.

I find it interesting too to hear about other countries' governments. Thanks all.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I saw that. That tells me that 'Dear John' thinks the rules don't apply to him. Normal people who love their pets don't smuggle them aboard a private plane and subject them to death. I will never, ever watch a movie of his again, not that I'll be missing anything.



EveMCooke said:


> Bratty, Johnny Depp himself is a little on the nose in Australia after he smuggled his two dogs into the country, illegally bypassing customs and quarantine restrictions. This news item may have missed the press in the USA, but he was in trouble down here. He was given until last Saturday to remove the dogs from the country or they would be destroyed. The USA has rabies but Australia does not have rabies so there could have been a hazard there. I think he is in line to cop a fine over illegally bringing his dogs into the country.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I am okay when I don't listen to the news. I get the drift from y'all. Too scary and depressing. Et tu?


I'm okay too. Knitting like a maniac and not moving enough.

It is getting scary SQ. I'm very concerned at the apparent inaction of the world regarding IS. They've made some significant gains in recent days and all the while still slaughtering innocent people. I watched the PBS news hour today and there was a discussion about the current administration's stance. The general consensus is that not enough is being done, not just from the U.S., but also generally.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> The Sex Party is something some of us are too old to be invited to.


Don't say that! One is never too old! :XD:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Forgive me for jumping in on this question. It is not unusual for members to use several user names, usually at different times.
> 
> For instance, once upon a time as the discussion became war-like, some people thought they could have some peace from stalkers by changing names. However everyone continues to get more tech savvy and the battles still rage. I just try to warn newbies of the rules of engagement so they won't get clobbered.
> 
> Suffice to say, things are complicated and seldom what they appear to be at first. Just be cautious and protect yourself as much as you possibly can. IMHO


 :XD: :XD: :XD: 'Clobbered.' I love that word!


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> The Sex Party is something some of us are too old to be invited to.


You could always apply for the position of coach, experienced players make the best coaches.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I'm okay too. Knitting like a maniac and not moving enough.
> 
> It is getting scary SQ. I'm very concerned at the apparent inaction of the world regarding IS. They've made some significant gains in recent days and all the while still slaughtering innocent people. I watched the PBS news hour today and there was a discussion about the current administration's stance. The general consensus is that not enough is being done, not just from the U.S., but also generally.


I think there's confusion about what will work. Sometimes I think we need to protect our borders and wait for request to help instead of jumping in, guns blazing.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> You could always apply for the position of coach, experienced players make the best coaches.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: Sex Party needs experienced coaches. Line up.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I'm okay too. Knitting like a maniac and not moving enough.
> 
> It is getting scary SQ. I'm very concerned at the apparent inaction of the world regarding IS. They've made some significant gains in recent days and all the while still slaughtering innocent people. I watched the PBS news hour today and there was a discussion about the current administration's stance. The general consensus is that not enough is being done, not just from the U.S., but also generally.


So after posting this, I came across an article in The Atlantic, an interview with President Obama about what is going on in the Middle East and I have to say, the President's stance on the situation really is fair:

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/05/obama-interview-iran-isis-israel/393782/


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I think there's confusion about what will work. Sometimes I think we need to protect our borders and wait for request to help instead of jumping in, guns blazing.


You are so right. Thus my post above.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My personal opinion is President Barack Obama is a good, intelligent man. He's human. He may not be right every time but his information and instincts are good. There's no one I trust more.



Wombatnomore said:


> So after posting this, I came across an article in The Atlantic, an interview with President Obama about what is going on in the Middle East and I have to say, the President's stance on the situation really is fair:
> 
> http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/05/obama-interview-iran-isis-israel/393782/


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I like your conclusions too. Thanks.



Wombatnomore said:


> You are so right. Thus my post above.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> ! I post this quite often because it rings so true.


And I like it every time.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

damemary said:


> I think there's confusion about what will work. Sometimes I think we need to protect our borders and wait for request to help instead of jumping in, guns blazing.


There was a special on CNN the other day in which Zaharias said IS is desperate for the US to invade with boots on the ground. While Bin Laden wanted to take his jihad to our shores, IS wants to make holy war on their turf and will provoke until we respond.

I'm still an isolationist at heart. Let their neighbors handle this. We don't have any business interfering where we don't understand the culture. The horrors are ghastly, but we have never been successful at stopping them. We never learn, either, but keep doing the same thing over and over even if it fails.

Besides, we have no military left. Bush used them up and we don't take care of our casualties now. How could we handle more?

Then, there's the profit that some make off war. Immoral.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> My responsibility in the matter? It's that I'm Jewish. You don't want to believe that Christian Identity was a new, and shocking, thing to me, and that's why I gave the link. I had never seen it before, and when I linked to it I had no intention of connecting it with all Christians. That was where my responsibility went.
> 
> I certainly didn't expect to be told that the owner was a Jew, and that Jews are white supremacists, and that I knew about that site and had some ulterior motive for the link. You can believe anything you want about me; just don't expect me to take responsibility for your mistaken beliefs. But when it comes to vilifying the entire community of Jews, I won't sit still.
> 
> Why do I bother? Look, if you believe I'm responsible, tell me why, don't just coyly hint.


Okay, Ill tell you, once again, why I think youre responsible:

The background is that you and KPG had/have a strong dislike for one another. However, this started when SQM said sarcastically that she was _feeling very Christian today_ and you tried to find a Christian smiley in support. What you found instead was _on a website meant for Christians, I saw an anti-Semitic slur._

KPG went to the site and reported that it was a Christian Identity site but was not Christian per se and that the OP of the site was Jewish. (IMO it was unclear what the OP meant by his ancestors in Israel.) At some point you agreed that it was not a Christian site, but a short time later you changed your mind again saying that it was.

Meanwhile SQM and JC jumped into it making nasty remarks about KPG, her name, and her Christian walk. You and she continued to exchange words and things got heated. You wouldnt retract your anti-Christian stance re the site and she retaliated with an anti-Semitic remark and aimed it directly at you.

You have since stated that you are not anti-Christian and she has stated that she is not anti-Semitic. Most of us believe both of you but neither of you want to believe the other.

My point is that you refuse to see that it all started with your and SQMs thinking you were being cute in your mocking of Christians on D&P. You never take any responsibility for your part in it, but you never stop pointing your finger at KPG for her part in it.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Gerslay, take a hike


Thanks, I think I will. We live in a tri-county area of over 250 waterfalls and while some of them are too rugged for me, most of them are a good hike.

TMI?
:thumbup:


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Any day that *The Deleted One* makes a feeble attempt at insulting me is a good day. It means I must be doing something right!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Gerslay said:


> Okay, Ill tell you, once again, why I think youre responsible:
> 
> The background is that you and KPG had/have a strong dislike for one another. However, this started when SQM said sarcastically that she was _feeling very Christian today_ and you tried to find a Christian smiley in support. What you found instead was _on a website meant for Christians, I saw an anti-Semitic slur._
> 
> ...


And the flogging continues.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

DGreen said:


> And the flogging continues.


She asked me to reply, Green...you need to MYOB


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Gerslay said:


> She asked me to reply, Green...you need to MYOB


You need to go back to the Diaper Pail.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Okay, Ill tell you, once again, why I think youre responsible:
> 
> The background is that you and KPG had/have a strong dislike for one another. However, this started when SQM said sarcastically that she was _feeling very Christian today_ and you tried to find a Christian smiley in support. What you found instead was _on a website meant for Christians, I saw an anti-Semitic slur._
> 
> ...


====================================
Gerslay- you must spend all your time looking for things and taking notes. 
Have you been appointed to take her place?

The things that your "friend" has said over the years have been so outrageous, unkind and arrogant to most of us here - and so often has she made statements that she knew were absolute falsehoods, so I doubt any of us would believe a word she said. She has called nearly all of us liars - but her feelings are hurt that one of us doesn't believe her? come on.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> ====================================
> Gerslay- you must spend all your time looking for things and taking notes. Haven't you got something better to do?
> 
> Have you been appointed to take her place?
> ...


I think you're right, Designer. Gerslay seems to have nothing better to do than monitor liberal sites, looking for an excuse to make nasty comments. She certainly doesn't address the topics being discussed. Must be a mental "self-pleasuring" thing with her - and we all know the other name for self-pleasuring.

I'm adding her to my list of the thugs to ignore along with Twisted Roads, Joey the Zealot, The One Who Shall Remain Nameless and Knit Crazy. And on and on.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Don't say that! One is never too old! :XD:


wanna bet????


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Green said:
KFN, take a breath. This is going to be a beautiful time for you and your family. Don't let words on a computer screen upset you. There are 4 bundles of extreme love and happiness coming your way. You will need to be calm and collected for DS and DIL and Max. (And for yourself!)
===================

Nebs. Green is right. I should not have answered your post. 
I apologize.

I know what stress you are under and should have left it alone. I don't want to add to the stress you are already under by a political disagreement, which wasn't that important.

I hope your dil is feeling better now that she is in the hospital. 
There is a beautiful azalea bush outside our window and I thought about how nice it would be if I could send you a bouquet. So, instead I am wishing 
nothing but good things and joy for you all. A hug to Max.
Once again, I wish you and your family and those sweet babies a wonderful future. The wait is nearly over. Prayers are really with you. I hope you know that.

Shirley


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I think that a young baby's innate knowledge of what is good or bad relates more to the intangible. Like a sense that something isn't right which makes them cry for example, thus alerting their carer to take notice.
> 
> Whatever, this ability is there in all of us from birth. Of that I am convinced.


I haven't posted in ages, and am catching up on posts here from a day or so ago. Can't stand to go back any further, too much time and effort,

If we are born with an innate sense of good and bad, that is certainly shaped, dare I say pruned, once we get here. Oh, how profound of me to say so. :-D

I am in beautiful Seattle now. On a completely different subject, I took the train here and got an especially scary view of just what four years of drought have done. One sees news reports that show what's happening in only one place, but the train travels through hundreds of miles past rivers, lakes, sloughs, the little rivulets that should be running down the rocky train sidings. No little rivulets. Fallow fields and orchards, most sloughs dry, Lake Shasta looks like a child's wading pool, and on and on. It's truly frightening.

The agriculture of California is an entirely false construct, relying on sending water into the desert that's central CA. The desert is naturally bent on reasserting itself, and winning right now. We're not getting water from nearby states and don't have enough of our own to make up for that. I'm flabbergasted that Gov. Brown hasn't instituted many draconian water conservation measures. The CA economy is going to tank, probably already has tanked more that than I know. Fire season hasn't stopped for two years. I could go on and on. What say those of you who live on the West Coast think? OR and WA are drought riden, too.

Does "desert" mean dry lands or something one has after dinner?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Gerslay said:


> Okay, Ill tell you, once again, why I think youre responsible:
> 
> The background is that you and KPG had/have a strong dislike for one another. However, this started when SQM said sarcastically that she was _feeling very Christian today_ and you tried to find a Christian smiley in support. What you found instead was _on a website meant for Christians, I saw an anti-Semitic slur._
> 
> ...


Whoa Gers. I never made fun of anyone's Christian religion. Exman was Christian as are my two nieces. So please rewrite your statement more accurately.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think we always have to consider that President has information we don't. That's not because he's hiding something from us. Anything that is public knowledge (and some that isn't aka Snowden) is quickly disseminated to the enemy.

Did any one else see Osama bin Ladin's private library list from his last home in Pakastan?He was quite well read to design anti-West tactics....including many publications from our government. Freedom of information you know.



Wombatnomore said:


> So after posting this, I came across an article in The Atlantic, an interview with President Obama about what is going on in the Middle East and I have to say, the President's stance on the situation really is fair:
> 
> http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/05/obama-interview-iran-isis-israel/393782/


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I agreed 100%.



DGreen said:


> There was a special on CNN the other day in which Zaharias said IS is desperate for the US to invade with boots on the ground. While Bin Laden wanted to take his jihad to our shores, IS wants to make holy war on their turf and will provoke until we respond.
> 
> I'm still an isolationist at heart. Let their neighbors handle this. We don't have any business interfering where we don't understand the culture. The horrors are ghastly, but we have never been successful at stopping them. We never learn, either, but keep doing the same thing over and over even if it fails.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> There was a special on CNN the other day in which Zaharias said IS is desperate for the US to invade with boots on the ground. While Bin Laden wanted to take his jihad to our shores, IS wants to make holy war on their turf and will provoke until we respond.
> 
> I'm still an isolationist at heart. Let their neighbors handle this. We don't have any business interfering where we don't understand the culture. The horrors are ghastly, but we have never been successful at stopping them. We never learn, either, but keep doing the same thing over and over even if it fails.
> 
> ...


 :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: I say to Bush, Cheney and their cronies, get a real job and quit playing war.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor dead horse.



DGreen said:


> And the flogging continues.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Country Bumpkin
> 
> Taking your advice.
> 
> JESUS!


Rather doubt that He would.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

An example of a lovely lady. Proud to know you Shirley.



Designer1234 said:


> Green said:
> KFN, take a breath. This is going to be a beautiful time for you and your family. Don't let words on a computer screen upset you. There are 4 bundles of extreme love and happiness coming your way. You will need to be calm and collected for DS and DIL and Max. (And for yourself!)
> ===================
> 
> ...


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Thanks for an answer to the wrong question.
> 
> You implied that I shouldn't have given out a link to the address of gork, because of all the "bitchen" I did. I only wanted to point out that I'm over the name thing but I'm not over the anti-Semitism. I said nothing about anyone's suspension; that's more on your mind than on mine.
> 
> ...


Years ago the late Rabbi Kahane warned us to be ever vigilant. People said he was paranoid. Look at what happened to him. Look at the virulent anti Jewish rhetoric from extremists. Maybe a bit of paranoia is healthy and life saving.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sorry but I have to say it. And now there's that damnable oil spill near Santa Barbara. The company has had 175+serious maintenance problems in the last 9 years. Mankind is a disease to the environment.

MIB, please enjoy your much deserved vacation. In the driest desert you'll see a bit of green growth, perhaps a bloom. I always drop a drink from my water to remind nature I care and am willing to share.



MaidInBedlam said:


> I haven't posted in ages, and am catching up on posts here from a day or so ago. Can't stand to go back any further, too much time and effort,
> 
> If we are born with an innate sense of good and bad, that is certainly shaped, dare I say pruned, once we get here. Oh, how profound of me to say so. :-D
> 
> ...


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Is she in heaven or in hell? That damned elusive Pimpernel.
> 
> I love that movie, in part because I love Leslie Howard.
> 
> Have you ever seen Pimpernel Smith?


Darling Purl thank you for making me aware of Pimpernel Smith. I found it on You Tube and just watched the first 15 minutes. I am enchanted with it. Leslie Howard was exceptional and I understand your feelings. I will be sure to continue watching when I make a window of time that I won't be interrupted as soon as possible.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> We all know who the Joker is, and probably who the Riddler is. But who's the Penguin?


Not sure. The one with the beaky nose who eats fish under an umbrella, probably. Someone who lives near water?


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Ill' bite. What is a Bex?


Bex powders were the housewife's drug of choice in the 1950s and 1960s until they were shown to be highly addictive and responsible for causing kidney disease when taken in large doses.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Years ago the late Rabbi Kahane warned us to be ever vigilant. People said he was paranoid. Look at what happened to him. Look at the virulent anti Jewish rhetoric from extremists. Maybe a bit of paranoia is healthy and life saving.


Do you mean Meir Kahane? He didn't deserve his end, but I'm sure many people who heard his hate speech wished it on him. He wasn't exactly diplomatic in his beliefs, was he?


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> Do you mean Meir Kahane? He didn't deserve his end, but I'm sure many people who heard his hate speech wished it on him. He wasn't exactly diplomatic in his beliefs, was he?


He certainly was not diplomatic. And they weren't hate speeches. He gave warnings that needed to be given. Perhaps if there were a Meir Kahane in Germany in the 1930's and if people took him seriously all those people would not have died so horribly. He was terrified of a level of complacency that would lead to further efforts to exterminate the Jewish people. In person he was humble and very sincere.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Okay. is it over now? I mean Gerslay is here dragging up a decomposed horse that has already been beaten to death.
My point is if this all happened between Purl and KPG, then why is Gerslay involved? And why was it brought up to begin with?


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> He certainly was not diplomatic. And they weren't hate speeches. He gave warnings that needed to be given. Perhaps if there were a Meir Kahane in Germany in the 1930's and if people took him seriously all those people would not have died so horribly. He was terrified of a level of complacency that would lead to further efforts to exterminate the Jewish people. In person he was humble and very sincere.


I think we'll just have to agree to differ on this one. I'll just say Margaret Thatcher was lovely to her staff. I have nothing but bitterness towards her, but I hesitate to put even her in the same category.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Okay. is it over now? I mean Gerslay is here dragging up a decomposed horse that has already been beaten to death.
> My point is if this all happened between Purl and KPG, then why is Gerslay involved? And why was it brought up to begin with?


Sounds sort of "do as I say, not as I do." Gersley has told people she is not talking to *them* and to mind their own business. If that is so important to her why is she sticking her nose into something that does not involve her?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Sounds sort of "do as I say, not as I do." Gersley has told people she is not talking to *them* and to mind their own business. If that is so important to her why is she sticking her nose into something that does not involve her?


Maybe she ran out of yarn and has to spin new ones.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Sounds sort of "do as I say, not as I do." Gersley has told people she is not talking to *them* and to mind their own business. If that is so important to her why is she sticking her nose into something that does not involve her?


Because that is what Gerslay does. It's in her DNA.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

SQM said:


> Maybe she ran out of yarn and has to spin new ones.


SQM
sounds like your new surroundings are bringing out your creative sense. Bravo. Huck


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: I say to Bush, Cheney and their cronies, get a real job and quit playing war.


damemary
I vote on that or at least, get out of our Hair for good.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Well, I guess you've told me. I don't recall saying anything anti-Christian, but if your dossier on me is complete, I may have. For that I apologize.

You left out the part where KPG insisted that I knew about that website before that day (implying that I was therefore underhanded in pretending to be shocked by it). And if the OP (original poster) of that thing is Jewish, I'll eat my _sheitel_. (For the uninitiated, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheitel.)

That "ancestors in Israel" is peculiar. I don't know a single Jew who says anything like that. Most of our ancestors were from places like Poland and Russia or like Iran and Yemen. (I'm sure there are some who can trace their ancestry to Israel, but not many, given the number of times we've been exiled from there.) To me it sounds more like a reference to the early Christians - not literally true but an attempt to make a point.

As for my and SQM's "thinking [we] were being cute mocking Christians on D&P, that's another thing I don't remember, not the "being cute" part and certainly not the "mocking Christians on D&P" part. And it's interesting to me that you single out the two of us, when some others have probably done a lot more "mocking" than we have. But they aren't Jewish, so it's okay?

One more point (this is boring me probably more than it's boring everyone else), when I was told that the Christian Identity website was not Christian, no matter what its users claimed, I accepted it. But more recently I was given "proof" that Jews for Jesus are Jews because their website says they are. That's no more proof than Christian Identity gives proof of their Christianity.

Jews for Jesus aren't Jewish because the Jewish community doesn't accept them as such, regardless of how a dictionary defines Jewishness.



Gerslay said:


> Okay, Ill tell you, once again, why I think youre responsible:
> 
> The background is that you and KPG had/have a strong dislike for one another. However, this started when SQM said sarcastically that she was _feeling very Christian today_ and you tried to find a Christian smiley in support. What you found instead was _on a website meant for Christians, I saw an anti-Semitic slur._
> 
> ...


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/05/obama-interview-iran-isis-israel...

I just read all of it the article about Obama's opinions and was very impressed.. He comes across as a believer of Israel, a Friend of Israel, and I found the article very interesting and much the opposite in every way of what the right is trying to push about his feelings about Israel.

I feel he is a person who is pretty much able to sort things out and really come up with many right answers. I thought his replies to the questions made very good sense. I applaud his statements. I would like to hear the reaction of the rest of you.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> My personal opinion is President Barack Obama is a good, intelligent man. He's human. He may not be right every time but his information and instincts are good. There's no one I trust more.


I agree completely with you Dame. I would trust him too if I was an American. His reasoning makes good sense to me.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> And the flogging continues.


Nah, this time I asked for it. She keeps hinting that I'm responsible for the incident but hasn't said why. And, after all,


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Years ago the late Rabbi Kahane warned us to be ever vigilant. People said he was paranoid. Look at what happened to him. Look at the virulent anti Jewish rhetoric from extremists. Maybe a bit of paranoia is healthy and life saving.


I knew him slightly when he was young and I was even younger. He seemed like any other Zionist just out of his teens. Then he married someone I had grown up with (who was related to DH), went to Israel, and changed. A lot. So we laughed at him.

Now I'm beginning to think he knew what he was talking about.

But you're right. Things are different these days.

My timer is beeping: challah is done. Shabbat shalom.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Darling Purl thank you for making me aware of Pimpernel Smith. I found it on You Tube and just watched the first 15 minutes. I am enchanted with it. Leslie Howard was exceptional and I understand your feelings. I will be sure to continue watching when I make a window of time that I won't be interrupted as soon as possible.


Did you know he was Jewish; at least, his father was? The least Jewish-looking person ever. And I just learned that "Seeing Pimpernel Smith reportedly convinced Raoul Wallenberg to save Jews from the Nazis." Let it be my gift to you.

Oh, there's another WWII movie in which he has a small but heroic part: _The 49th Parallel_, which I highly recommend. See Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/49th_Parallel_(film)


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Not sure. The one with the beaky nose who eats fish under an umbrella, probably. Someone who lives near water?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Okay. is it over now? I mean Gerslay is here dragging up a decomposed horse that has already been beaten to death.
> My point is if this all happened between Purl and KPG, then why is Gerslay involved? And why was it brought up to begin with?


Don't ask me.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Maybe she ran out of yarn and has to spin new ones.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: She was pretty rough on you for no reason. Good on you for speaking up. She keeps bringing up "mocking" the Christians, and we're guilty of it whether we did or not.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I knew him slightly when he was young and I was even younger. He seemed like any other Zionist just out of his teens. Then he married someone I had grown up with (who was related to DH), went to Israel, and changed. A lot. So we laughed at him.
> 
> Now I'm beginning to think he knew what he was talking about.
> 
> ...


No, sorry, I just can't agree about Meir Kahane. I thought this was a thread for liberal-leaning women, but many of you seem to have a real blind spot regarding Israel and Zionism. I hope my previous posts will have shown that I am not racist, or anti-Semitic, but this is a step too far for me. Maybe I'm too left-wing for this.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Maybe I'm feeling a bit bold tonight and it's past my bedtime, but this Kahane thing has really bothered me. Here's just one quotation from him: 

"Western democracy has to be ruled out. For me that's cut and dried: there's no question of setting up democracy in Israel, because democracy means equal rights for all, irrespective of racial or religious origins."

Am I in the wrong place, or does that go against everything I understood you women to stand for? I find this absolutely sickening. Ignore me if you want: it's your privilege.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Green said:
> KFN, take a breath. This is going to be a beautiful time for you and your family. Don't let words on a computer screen upset you. There are 4 bundles of extreme love and happiness coming your way. You will need to be calm and collected for DS and DIL and Max. (And for yourself!)
> ===================
> 
> ...


Thank you, Shirley! June 4th is the day, at 2:45, I think.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

aw9358 said:


> No, sorry, I just can't agree about Meir Kahane. I thought this was a thread for liberal-leaning women, but many of you seem to have a real blind spot regarding Israel and Zionism. I hope my previous posts will have shown that I am not racist, or anti-Semitic, but this is a step too far for me. Maybe I'm too left-wing for this.


Not many but a few of us are Jewish and may have a different POV re: Israel and Zionism. Sorry if your sensibilities are hurt.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

SQM said:


> Not many but a few of us are Jewish and may have a different POV re: Israel and Zionism. Sorry if your sensibilities are hurt.


Then I wish you would explain it in terms I would understand, given your professed views on politics in general. My sensibilities don't matter. It's just that some people's support of Meir Kahane have crossed a line for me. The old canard is that two wrongs don't make a right, and I'm afraid I agree on this occasion.

Sorry, just wanted to add that it's nearly 2am here and I get sent to bed. If you do respond, I will read it - just a few hours later.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I must admit I have no knowledge of this person. I need to research.



aw9358 said:


> No, sorry, I just can't agree about Meir Kahane. I thought this was a thread for liberal-leaning women, but many of you seem to have a real blind spot regarding Israel and Zionism. I hope my previous posts will have shown that I am not racist, or anti-Semitic, but this is a step too far for me. Maybe I'm too left-wing for this.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> There was a special on CNN the other day in which Zaharias said IS is desperate for the US to invade with boots on the ground. While Bin Laden wanted to take his jihad to our shores, IS wants to make holy war on their turf and will provoke until we respond.
> 
> I'm still an isolationist at heart. Let their neighbors handle this. We don't have any business interfering where we don't understand the culture. The horrors are ghastly, but we have never been successful at stopping them. We never learn, either, but keep doing the same thing over and over even if it fails.
> 
> ...


President Obama stated (words to that effect) that the Iraqi government is not taking steps politically to assuage the situation over there. After reading the article and yours and Dames comments, I agree that the region has to clean up it's own mess. I just hope they do before ISIS infiltrates fully outside of the ME.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

damemary said:


> I must admit I have no knowledge of this person. I need to research.


Please do. It might show that I'm not a rabid anti-Semite. I found the man abhorrent many years ago, and my opinion hasn't changed.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> wanna bet????


Don't believe you! :mrgreen:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> I haven't posted in ages, and am catching up on posts here from a day or so ago. Can't stand to go back any further, too much time and effort,
> 
> If we are born with an innate sense of good and bad, that is certainly shaped, dare I say pruned, once we get here. Oh, how profound of me to say so. :-D
> 
> ...


Australia experienced severe drought from 1995 until 2009. We're experiencing drought now and I feel terribly sorry for the farmers. They're spending huge dollars to get feed and water in for their stock and many are about to throw the towel in. Some of the farms have belonged to the families for generations.

Over this time, all Australian households received a small egg timer in the mail. We had to stick it on to the shower wall and have the water running for no more than the sands slipped through to the bottom. 4 minutes.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I think we always have to consider that President has information we don't. That's not because he's hiding something from us. Anything that is public knowledge (and some that isn't aka Snowden) is quickly disseminated to the enemy.
> 
> Did any one else see Osama bin Ladin's private library list from his last home in Pakastan?He was quite well read to design anti-West tactics....including many publications from our government. Freedom of information you know.


Yes, and his private diaries professed profound love for his wife. Who knew? :shock:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Maybe she ran out of yarn and has to spin new ones.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Well, I guess you've told me. I don't recall saying anything anti-Christian, but if your dossier on me is complete, I may have. For that I apologize.
> 
> You left out the part where KPG insisted that I knew about that website before that day (implying that I was therefore underhanded in pretending to be shocked by it). And if the OP (original poster) of that thing is Jewish, I'll eat my _sheitel_. (For the uninitiated, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheitel.)
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/05/obama-interview-iran-isis-israel...
> 
> I just read all of it the article about Obama's opinions and was very impressed.. He comes across as a believer of Israel, a Friend of Israel, and I found the article very interesting and much the opposite in every way of what the right is trying to push about his feelings about Israel.
> 
> I feel he is a person who is pretty much able to sort things out and really come up with many right answers. I thought his replies to the questions made very good sense. I applaud his statements. I would like to hear the reaction of the rest of you.


I thought the interview was excellent for President Obama. He is a highly intelligent and fair person and he's right about the ME. They HAVE to sort this themselves.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

aw9358 said:


> Then I wish you would explain it in terms I would understand, given your professed views on politics in general. My sensibilities don't matter. It's just that some people's support of Meir Kahane have crossed a line for me. The old canard is that two wrongs don't make a right, and I'm afraid I agree on this occasion.
> 
> Sorry, just wanted to add that it's nearly 2am here and I get sent to bed. If you do respond, I will read it - just a few hours later.


I am not an expert on Kahane but I do remember he was killed and was an extremist. I did not support him and was dismayed by his actions at the time. He does not cross my mind ever. So the person who brought him up is in a better position to talk about him than I am.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'll try to explain my beliefs and feeling about Meir Kahane and Israel. It is an exceptional case to me. Although I am not of Jewish descent, I have identified strongly with them since I was a child. I imagine seeing those I loved most killed brutally for their faith. I imagine the fear and hopelessness of waiting to be captured and killed.

I'd say that would make me radical. I cannot condone or criticize Meir Kahane or anyone else in those circumstances.



aw9358 said:


> Please do. It might show that I'm not a rabid anti-Semite. I found the man abhorrent many years ago, and my opinion hasn't changed.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

On all the news casts there is lots being said about the Duggar family. I have been reading quite a few of them. It is noted by most articles that Mike Huckleby doesn't feel Josh should be held responsible as he asked for forgiveness, or something like that (don't know the exact quote). Daddy Dugger kept it quiet except to tell the Powers that be in their Church. No one told the police until after a year. Then the friend who was a policeman and was told about it didn't file any charges (by the way, he is now serving a long long time as a child molester).

It is also noted that very few Right wing members are even acknowledging that he should have been charged. It seems only Gays should be charged with child molesting. The Mother spoke recently about Gays and said they should be avoided as many were child molesters - knowing full well that her son was a child molester. No help was ever given to the sisters who were molested. The Show has been pulled. It is horrifying. They have made millions of dollars and the huge house they live in was part of the TV Deal.

Josh (the son) has been speaking out against Gays and was a lobyist in Washington which is against Gays and Lesbians. 

It takes a lot of gall to think that it wouldn't come out. It seems the only one who has mentioned it so far on the right is Huckeby. unbelievable. 

I feel sorry for the girls (sisters) he molested. They never had any counselling. He was sent to work with a builder for a year and the parents said that he had received counselling and was cured -(by the builder I guess.)


I googled the Duggar family, and Josh Duggar. I wonder where the Christians are who say molesting a child is a sin. 
Can you imagine if he was a liberal???


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

All In said:


>


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I must admit I have no knowledge of this person. I need to research.


I just read about him on Wiki. An extreme and complicated character. Will delve more.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

All In said:


>


Exactly my Old Friend. Next PP will be accused of mixing Christian baby blood in her challah dough. I would be accused of that too if I knew how to bake.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

[/quote]


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Exactly my Old Friend. Next PP will be accused of mixing Christian baby blood in her challah dough. I would be accused of that too if I knew how to bake.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

All In said:


> Exactly, it's all about 'the boy' and I would suggest that focus on males being more important than females in traditional Christianity, may be a part of how this came to happen in the first place. It's a part of how it happens even in general society as those sentiments are still stuck on society like burnt tomatoes at the bottom of a cooking pan.
> 
> It's not surprising to me that the first born son of this particular extremist Christian family saw his sisters and 'friends' as playthings and broodmares.
> 
> ...


Sexual repression can lead to sexual perversion. Quiverfull is nothing if not sexually repressive - except within their proscribed rules. No surprise to me the family bred a pervert.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Sexual repression can lead to sexual perversion. Quiverfull is nothing if not sexually repressive - except within their proscribed rules. No surprise to me the family bred a pervert.


Here are pictures of Santorium and Cruz with him recently


----------



## lins (Jan 8, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> ! I post this quite often because it rings so true.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

All In said:


> For that matter, I'm not sure that Daddy using Mommy as broodmare isn't a sexual perversion in and of itself, dressed up as something else.


In that case every man uses his wife as a broodmare and every wife uses her husband as a stallion--since the majority of married people want kids.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

lins said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


I am enthralled by that avatar lins!


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

All In said:


> Who said the Duggars wanted kids? Having kids is a requirement, whether they want them or not.
> 
> Their religion requires they build an "Army of God" by having as many kids as possible because children are the 'weapons'.
> 
> Quiver-full.


You answered your own question. They wanted kids.


----------



## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the Duggars were Mormon. They generally desire large families. 

My knowledge on the subject is limited, but as for the child molester issue, they should be put under the jail. The problem with that is getting the courts to listen to the out cries of a child. Especially when they clearly know how the cow ate the cabbage at a young age.


----------



## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

kwright said:


> I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the Duggars were Mormon. They generally desire large families.
> 
> My knowledge on the subject is limited, but as for the child molester issue, they should be put under the jail. The problem with that is getting the courts to listen to the out cries of a child. Especially when they clearly know how the cow ate the cabbage at a young age.


The Duggars are members of a Baptist sect.


----------



## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> The Duggars are members of a Baptist sect.


Thank you.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Oh, boy! St. Finger has his work cut out for him!
This is a sad situation for those girls to be molested by their own brother, someone that they looked up to and trusted. 
In the words of Cheech and Chong "Bailiff! Whack his pee pee!"


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

But few pairs want litters.



sumpleby said:


> In that case every man uses his wife as a broodmare and every wife uses her husband as a stallion--since the majority of married people want kids.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Oh, boy! St. Finger has his work cut out for him!
> This is a sad situation for those girls to be molested by their own brother, someone that they looked up to and trusted.
> In the words of Cheech and Chong "Bailiff! Whack his pee pee!"


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> No, sorry, I just can't agree about Meir Kahane. I thought this was a thread for liberal-leaning women, but many of you seem to have a real blind spot regarding Israel and Zionism. I hope my previous posts will have shown that I am not racist, or anti-Semitic, but this is a step too far for me. Maybe I'm too left-wing for this.


I suppose you're right about some of us having a blind spot regarding Israel. Some of us care whether Israel continues to exist or is handed over to a bunch of terrorists who have promised to destroy not just Israel but all Jews.

I don't think you're at all racist; I have no reason to think you're anti-Semitic. To my mind Meir Kahane was a nut, but that may be because I once knew his wife and she was very sane but also very quiet, in contrast to him. He said many outrageous things, but he also reminded Jews that the Holocaust was not the first attempt to destroy them and would not be the last, and that they needed to develop strength in order to survive.

I don't want to argue about Kahane; I've told you how I regard him. I do, however, think that the left's view of Israel is colored by pity for the Palestinians, who have turned away from every peaceful overture made to them since 1948 and chosen to fight. Is it any wonder that Israel chooses to fight back?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

All In said:


> from what I've read the Christian Identity believe that white Europeans are the 'true' decedents of the Isrealites;


For years there was a group of black men who would set up a table in a parking lot on Times Square and "prove" that they were the actual descendants of the Israelites. Take your pick.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> I am not an expert on Kahane but I do remember he was killed and was an extremist. I did not support him and was dismayed by his actions at the time. He does not cross my mind ever. So the person who brought him up is in a better position to talk about him than I am.


That would be Marilyn, who may not get back until Monday night, when the holiday of Shavuot ends.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

All In said:


>


Thank you. Also, thanks for that smiley, which I love and have taken for my own.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Exactly my Old Friend. Next PP will be accused of mixing Christian baby blood in her challah dough. I would be accused of that too if I knew how to bake.


Thank you for giving me something new to worry about.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

All In said:


> For that matter, I'm not sure that Daddy using Mommy as broodmare isn't a sexual perversion in and of itself, dressed up as something else.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Gerslay- you must spend all your time looking for things and taking notes. Have you been appointed to take her place? (You say she asked you to reply? So, who is stirring?????)
> The things that your "friend" has said over the years have been so outrageous, unkind and arrogant to most of us here - and so often has she made statements that she knew were absolute falsehoods, so I doubt any of us would believe a word she said. She has called nearly all of us liars - but her feelings are hurt that one of us doesn't believe her? come on.


Do you know that nothing on the internet is ever lost and that you can find just about anything you want that has been cached on Google (or Bing, etc) including almost all of Knitting Paradise...even things that have been deleted? Its easy, you just need to enter the right combination of keywords in the search box; that, and a great memory and you can do it too.

With all due respect, Designer, you have misunderstood my post once again. You need to pay more attention to who a post is talking to and/or about before you jump in with your opinion. The she I spoke of is Purl who prompted me to respond to her. What you think of KPG is irrelevant and is not the subject.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

SQM said:


> Whoa Gers. I never made fun of anyone's Christian religion. Exman was Christian as are my two nieces. So please rewrite your statement more accurately.


If you say that this post of yours is sincere and is not your usual sarcasm, then I will, and do, apologize.



> WOW#6 page 63 -- SQM wrote: I am trying to be Christian towards everyone.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Well, I guess you've told me


Purl, I didnt intend for us to run through all this again. Im sure youre just as tired of it as I am. I agree and disagree with different parts of what you wrote, but it doesnt matter what those points are now...nor do I think you really care.

My original comment to you was only that I found it odd that you were, once upon a time, sensitive to someone exposing your real name and address but you didnt show the same sensitivity for someone else when you exposed her real name and address. The link you posted went directly to her full name, address, housemates, neighbors, and a map of her locationand all that led to any further information that anyone would care to uncover.

Gork15 is not someone I know and is not a Denim, but IMO is probably another innocent that The Deleted One has used for her purpose. However, it appears that Gork has gone silent and is no longer an issue.

I make you a promiseIll never bring any of this up again.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I'm adding her to my list of the thugs to ignore


Praise God!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm beginning to think joey and gerslay are related. Yawn.


----------



## lins (Jan 8, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I am enthralled by that avatar lins!


Ha, the cat looks like a cool cucumber.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

I'll make a similar promise, though one with a caveat: I won't bring it up again unless the Nameless one (or one of her friends) makes another remark that feels anti-Semitic. Not anti-me but anti Jews.

The funny thing about gork was that everyone else thought she was a handpuppet of Nameless, or another Denim. For a couple of days, new people kept turning up on this thread who sounded like one of your cohorts. I was the only one who thought gork was genuine, and since she gave her full name and location, I Googled them and found that she did indeed exist. Or he - after following that link, some of us thought it was a man. I doubt that anyone wrote - or will write - down all that other information, but it was, after all, public. But it wasn't Lisa naming an innocent. You can tell by the way gork writes.

The funny thing about having my name made public was that though doing it got someone suspended, that was the least of my concerns. I asked Admin three times to delete the message in which she brings my husband and white supremacy into it, and Admin refused (though it contained my last name).

Sorry, I see I'm off to the races again. The End.



Gerslay said:


> Purl, I didnt intend for us to run through all this again. Im sure youre just as tired of it as I am. I agree and disagree with different parts of what you wrote, but it doesnt matter what those points are now...nor do I think you really care.
> 
> My original comment to you was only that I found it odd that you were, once upon a time, sensitive to someone exposing your real name and address but you didnt show the same sensitivity for someone else when you exposed her real name and address. The link you posted went directly to her full name, address, housemates, neighbors, and a map of her locationand all that led to any further information that anyone would care to uncover.
> 
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

lins said:


> Ha, the cat looks like a cool cucumber.


At the Fontainebleu in Miami Beach.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Hi Gers,

You can go thru my "great oeuvres" on KP and see that the only time I talk about religion is when it comes to Israel. I leave Christianity to the experts. So thanks for the kind apology and for seeing that I am sarcastic without having to post a sarcasm warning.

Hope all is well with you.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Sounds sort of "do as I say, not as I do." Gersley has told people she is not talking to *them* and to mind their own business. If that is so important to her why is she sticking her nose into something that does not involve her?


I'd love to know why anyone thinks they're talking to one particular person when this is a public place. I seem to recall we can use PMs for conversations between individuals.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Australia experienced severe drought from 1995 until 2009. We're experiencing drought now and I feel terribly sorry for the farmers. They're spending huge dollars to get feed and water in for their stock and many are about to throw the towel in. Some of the farms have belonged to the families for generations.
> 
> Over this time, all Australian households received a small egg timer in the mail. We had to stick it on to the shower wall and have the water running for no more than the sands slipped through to the bottom. 4 minutes.


Sounds like Australia is being more sensible than California, at least about showers. As I said, I'm shocked and deeply concerned that CA's Governor hasn't done much to stem water use by individuals. At least some individuals are getting rid of their lawns and putting in drought-resistant and very attractive gardens instead, also low flow toilets. We have a couple of bricks in our toilet tank since our landlord is probably too stupid to put in new toilets. He's already been cited and fined for excessive water use. He and his family live in the building and 9 people are taking 12-18 showers a day. Meanwhile I'm down to one every other day.


----------



## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

We have been periodically told to use less water due to less rain in the last few years, but we have had so much rain lately, that we have caught up with our required amount to break even.

Sloth, I hope you are happy in your new home. You'll have to PM me the new address. I'll send you a package for house warming.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Do you know that nothing on the internet is ever lost and that you can find just about anything you want that has been cached on Google (or Bing, etc) including almost all of Knitting Paradise...even things that have been deleted? Its easy, you just need to enter the right combination of keywords in the search box; that, and a great memory and you can do it too.
> 
> With all due respect, Designer, you have misunderstood my post once again. You need to pay more attention to who a post is talking to and/or about before you jump in with your opinion. The she I spoke of is Purl who prompted me to respond to her. What you think of KPG is irrelevant and is not the subject.


With all due respect Gerslay -If you read it again, you will see I removed that part. . I don't apologize for anything else I wrote.

It still seems to me you are flogging a dead horse that died quite some time ago. I still wonder what you think you gain by doing so - except to irritate.

It is also nice to know that you have never corrected a post. I do so quite often -and have no problem admitting it.


----------



## lins (Jan 8, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> At the Fontainebleu in Miami Beach.


You betcha'
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## kwright (Mar 16, 2012)

Maybe my view is a bit out of the ordinary. I have always considered people who are the descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel 'God's chosen people.' The country currently known as Israel is very important to me. Everyone needs a 'home.' I am a retired history teacher. The behavior of he who will not be named that was a major player in WW II, and all the lives lost in his genocide is something that I feel strongly about. I make a point to make my students aware of what happened, the horrible losses, and behaviors of the people involved. We have a Holocaust Museum in Houston. It is an interesting place, the roof slants down as you go through it, which causes you to feel a bit claustrophobic. It is a testament to those who lost loved ones in that horrific time. There were all things horrid and hard to grasp the atrocities of the events. Man's in humanity to man.

I was the only gentile at my friends' wedding shortly after college. It was a beautiful tradition to witness. Weddings are typically lovely, but being invited to this one was extra special. My friend made a lovely bride.


----------



## lins (Jan 8, 2013)

damemary said:


> I'm beginning to think joey and gerslay are related. Yawn.


I must be from the old school because I think changing ones identity for a day or two on here just to blabber crap is ridiculous.

If you're not ashamed of what you have to say here under your original profile say it, if you are, keep it to yourself.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> The Duggars are members of a Baptist sect.


I would search out the People's magazine and include the name Josh Duggar- it will give you the information that come out.

They covered up the fact that their daughters were molested by their oldest son. It is rather an interesting example of some who claim to be very religious but are actually hypocrites, and were also greedy. I feel sorry for the girls in the family. Two have just been married, one was pregnant within a couple of weeks and they celebrated, the other has had a baby during the first few months of their marriage.

The thing that bothered me is that the parents are in their late forties- Her last 2 pregnancies were very difficult and she nearly lost her life with each of them. They however still say they are trying to have another which seems weird and 
I wonder what she really feels way down deep about putting her life at risk one more time because he wants her to.Their youngest child was very very premature and spent months in the hospital and still has problems - likely always will.

There is more to their background than that so anyone who is interested check it out. The son was a lobbyist for a company that is against Gay Marriage and has stated that the childen adopted by gays could be molested. He has been in pictures with Cruz, and 2 or 3 other people running for the Right. They support Huckebee (?) and he has said he feels they have been forgiven - that everyone makes a mistake.

I wonder if there will any aftermath as far as the election goes. It shows how hypocritical they were about their faith

. There is also a topic separate from the political threads with information. Check out the thread on chit chat.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

lins said:


> I must be from the old school because I think changing ones identity for a day or two on here just to blabber crap is ridiculous.
> 
> If you're not ashamed of what you have to say here under your original profile say it, if you are, keep it to yourself.


I am with you lins. I have never bothered with hiding my face or name or where I live. I am me - and just don't really worry about it .
Some worry about being banned - so I guess it is their choice.

I am a Canadian and possibly I might feel differently if I was in the States and a Citizen. I doubt it though.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> But few pairs want litters.


I agree with you damemary. I have been married for 60 years and have lost children through miscarriages, sids and cancer-

I find it irritating that people breed like rabbits for their religion. I also think that way down deep the girls in this family as well as the mother have been brainwashed. They have all been kept separate from other children, schools and normal life. Now that this all has come out it shows how hypocritical they really are.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> In that case every man uses his wife as a broodmare and every wife uses her husband as a stallion--since the majority of married people want kids.


I don't agree at all with the above- Having it the only reason for your religion and first on the list of importance in your life, is a different matter.

Having a family where the children are loved, and taught to become good members of society is entirely different than these children - certainly they appear happy and loved, but the main focus on this family is to produce more and more children because of their "Christian Beliefs".


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Gerslay wrote:
Do you know that nothing on the internet is ever lost and that you can find just about anything you want that has been cached on Google (or Bing, etc) including almost all of Knitting Paradise...even things that have been deleted? Its easy, you just need to enter the right combination of keywords in the search box; that, and a great memory and you can do it too."""""""
==================

Thanks for the information.Yes, I am aware of that fact and have been aware of it for a long time. However, I have no interest in going back to read my own previous posts or anyone elses. If people take the trouble to change what they have written - it means they have rethought what and how they want to say. 

I have changed mine quite often from the first 'draft' written in the quick reply and have often removed sentences or words. I type quickly and I usually write what I call a draft and immediately go over it. I have done it often with the workshops when I was trying to say exactly what I wanted to say. Sometimes with these posts too.

However I realize that a lot of others go back and read all mine and everyone else's posts - which usually are the final draft in my case. If someone wants to read my original writings, so be it. I have other things I prefer to spend my time on.

It seems pretty petty to me to try to 'trap ' others- which has happened quite often by some who visit us. I doubt I have gone back and read another persons posts on their "MY POSTS" any more than l0 times in all the years I have been here. What is posted is posted.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think you make pertinent distinctions.



Poor Purl said:


> I'll make a similar promise, though one with a caveat: I won't bring it up again unless the Nameless one (or one of her friends) makes another remark that feels anti-Semitic. Not anti-me but anti Jews.
> 
> The funny thing about gork was that everyone else thought she was a handpuppet of Nameless, or another Denim. For a couple of days, new people kept turning up on this thread who sounded like one of your cohorts. I was the only one who thought gork was genuine, and since she gave her full name and location, I Googled them and found that she did indeed exist. Or he - after following that link, some of us thought it was a man. I doubt that anyone wrote - or will write - down all that other information, but it was, after all, public. But it wasn't Lisa naming an innocent. You can tell by the way gork writes.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm with you.



MaidInBedlam said:


> I'd love to know why anyone thinks they're talking to one particular person when this is a public place. I seem to recall we can use PMs for conversations between individuals.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

To err is human. To admit divine.



Designer1234 said:


> With all due respect Gerslay -If you read it again, you will see I removed that part. . I don't apologize for anything else I wrote.
> 
> It still seems to me you are flogging a dead horse that died quite some time ago. I still wonder what you think you gain by doing so - except to irritate.
> 
> It is also nice to know that you have never corrected a post. I do so quite often -and have no problem admitting it.


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I'll make a similar promise, though one with a caveat: I won't bring it up again unless the Nameless one (or one of her friends) makes another remark that feels anti-Semitic. Not anti-me but anti Jews.


I'll see your caveat and raise you one: I also retain the right to jump in if I sense you or your friends are bashing Christians in general and Denim Christians in particular. Its probably a good sensitivity lesson for all of us and it might even make things more pleasant on KP.

Stranger things have happened!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Thanks for the information.Yes, I am aware of that fact and have been aware of it for a long time. However, I have no interest in going back to read my own previous posts or anyone elses. If people take the trouble to change what they have written - it means they have rethought what and how they want to say.
> 
> I have changed mine quite often from the first 'draft' written in the quick reply and have often removed sentences or words. I type quickly and I usually write what I call a draft and immediately go over it. I have done it often with the workshops when I was trying to say exactly what I wanted to say. Sometimes with these posts too.
> 
> ...


Sometimes you can use KP's search box to find a specific pattern or yarn, etc., but sometimes you might be trying to remember what someone said about a recipe or a LYS and KP's search box won't give you that information....but google might!

That you assume searching for things is only to "trap" someone is very telling!


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

SQM said:


> Hi Gers,
> You can go thru my "great oeuvres" on KP and see that the only time I talk about religion is when it comes to Israel. I leave Christianity to the experts. So thanks for the kind apology and for seeing that I am sarcastic without having to post a sarcasm warning.
> Hope all is well with you.


All is well, happy and healthy!

I hope you're well also (and your cat) and that your move turns out to be all that you hoped for.


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

lins said:


> I must be from the old school because I think changing ones identity for a day or two on here just to blabber crap is ridiculous.
> 
> If you're not ashamed of what you have to say here under your original profile say it, if you are, keep it to yourself.


Old school, indeed. You share that with a lot of us, I think. Others have no shame, but love to play the silly game of creating a new persona just to blabber crap. Seems like a lot of work with little reward.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Gerslay said:


> All is well, happy and healthy!
> 
> I hope you're well also (and your cat) and that your move turns out to be all that you hoped for.


Thanks Gers. I finally unpacked the last box so I have a home again. Now I have the job of rebuilding my life. "Dove" seems to be doing okay. I always liked you because you are one of the funniest ones on the other side. (Note that I did not capitalize "other side" which would suggest someplace else.)


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> Sometimes you can use KP's search box to find a specific pattern or yarn, etc., but sometimes you might be trying to remember what someone said about a recipe or a LYS and KP's search box won't give you that information....but google might!
> 
> That you assume searching for things is only to "trap" someone is very telling!


I am talking about searching for statements made on these Political threads.

I certainly had to go back sometimes when I waslooking after the workshops. Sometimes to check on dates, or agreements or discussions I had with teachers. It is the posts here that I don't look for.

Think whatever you like.

There was a time that I had nightmares about what was said about me on D and P but I decided that I would not search for the statements or read them again. I read and answer what I want to every day. I don't go back to look for more nastiness. I am not going to discuss this further with you as if I do it will last for pages and pages as that seems to be what you like to do. Enjoy your Sunday.


----------



## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I would search out the People's magazine and include the name Josh Duggar- it will give you the information that come out.
> 
> This is all true, and the info is out there... lots of it.
> 
> ...


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Dangrktty said:


> Designer1234 said:
> 
> 
> > I would search out the People's magazine and include the name Josh Duggar- it will give you the information that come out.
> ...


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Dangrktty said:


> Designer1234 said:
> 
> 
> > I would search out the People's magazine and include the name Josh Duggar- it will give you the information that come out.
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> To err is human. To admit divine.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> I'll see your caveat and raise you one: I also retain the right to jump in if I sense you or your friends are bashing Christians in general and Denim Christians in particular. Its probably a good sensitivity lesson for all of us and it might even make things more pleasant on KP.
> 
> Stranger things have happened!


I can understand your jumping in if anyone bashes Christians in general, but Denim Christians? Do you really think your little circle is as important as all of Christendom? (And is it open season on Soloweygirl? :lol: )

When we see hypocrisy, we may point it out, and it may be connected to your practice of Christianity. But jump if you need to, as long as you don't shoot us for posting cartoons you don't like.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

In-Stitches said:


> And I bet there will be no distinction made between anti-semitism and valid criticism of ongoing bad behavior by Christians.
> 
> Because, Christians have recently suffered a holocaust just like Jews have.
> 
> You know, six on one hand, half-dozen o the other.


Ah, yes, the War on Christmas/Christians dealt them a death blow. In the mind of Bill O'Reilly, at least.


----------



## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Ah, yes, the War on Christmas/Christians dealt them a death blow. In the mind of Bill O'Reilly, at least.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I can understand your jumping in if anyone bashes Christians in general, but Denim Christians? Do you really think your little circle is as important as all of Christendom? (And is it open season on Soloweygirl? :lol: )
> 
> When we see hypocrisy, we may point it out, and it may be connected to your practice of Christianity. But jump if you need to, as long as you don't shoot us for posting cartoons you don't like.


I keep trying to spread the civility but you keep making new conditions. 
Do whatever you like, I really don't care to get down into the weeds.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Dusti on Kp, lost her son unexpectedly today and she is alone in Brooklyn. There is a thread on chat - I forgot the name but maybe some of us would like to post our concerns.

The thread is "how can I make it thru the night".


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Dusti on Kp, lost her son unexpectedly today and she is alone in Brooklyn. There is a thread on chat - I forgot the name but maybe some of us would like to post our concerns.
> 
> The thread is "how can I make it thru the night".


Thank you for letting us know, SQM. I just dropped in and probably wouldn't have seen it.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Same here. Thanks for the tip SQM. She needs help.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you for letting us know, SQM. I just dropped in and probably wouldn't have seen it.


----------



## theyarnlady (Feb 25, 2011)

Thank you all of you we may not beleive the same way but your compassion for Dusti show all of us we have a lot more in common , then we have with our differences.

Thanks SQM, that was thoughtful of you to tell those on DP what was happening.

May have already seen it and was in prayers, but you shared something that we all can understand.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

theyarnlady said:


> Thank you all of you we may not beleive the same way but your compassion for Dusti show all of us we have a lot more in common , then we have with our differences.
> 
> Thanks SQM, that was thoughtful of you to tell those on DP what was happening.
> 
> May have already seen it and was in prayers, but you shared something that we all can understand.


No problem ladies. Dusti's thread was a sharp reminder how fragile things are in the world and nastily discussing politics is so meaningless. All of us have more in common than not and being blue or red is ultimately not a good enough reason for being mean. My red friend here has been a total spirit-send to me as are my twin and his partner.


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## lins (Jan 8, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Old school, indeed. You share that with a lot of us, I think. Others have no shame, but love to play the silly game of creating a new persona just to blabber crap. Seems like a lot of work with little reward.


I think it originates from a certain group here on KP.

It's such a shame, really.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

theyarnlady said:


> Thank you all of you we may not beleive the same way but your compassion for Dusti show all of us we have a lot more in common , then we have with our differences.
> 
> Thanks SQM, that was thoughtful of you to tell those on DP what was happening.
> 
> May have already seen it and was in prayers, but you shared something that we all can understand.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Dusti on Kp, lost her son unexpectedly today and she is alone in Brooklyn. There is a thread on chat - I forgot the name but maybe some of us would like to post our concerns.
> 
> The thread is "how can I make it thru the night".


How sad. Thank you for letting us know. I've PMed her.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Gerslay said:


> I keep trying to spread the civility but you keep making new conditions.
> Do whatever you like, I really don't care to get down into the weeds.


I make new conditions? This was a response to _your_ new conditions. But you can claim I'm responsible now, as you have in the past. I hope it makes you feel better.


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I make new conditions? This was a response to _your_ new conditions. But you can claim I'm responsible now, as you have in the past. I hope it makes you feel better.


Sorry Purl but that's not how I see it at all.

I made you a promise.
You agreed and made me a promise, but with a condition.
So I just met your condition with a similar one of my own.
Who's on first?

My original promise stands.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Please take this to PM.



Gerslay said:


> Sorry Purl but that's not how I see it at all.
> 
> I made you a promise.
> You agreed and made me a promise, but with a condition.
> ...


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> Please take this to PM.


The last time I sent her a PM, she didn't read it.

I wasn't going to answer her anyway, so this delightful exchange would have ended.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

In-Stitches said:


> I wonder if this new found civility will extend itself to Islam or if anti-Muslimism is fair game. Like insinuating or outright claiming Islam and Islamists are inherently violent.


Are you serious? I didn't think so.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Blessings child. Sorry. It will just have to disappear from our consciousness.



Poor Purl said:


> The last time I sent her a PM, she didn't read it.
> 
> I wasn't going to answer her anyway, so this delightful exchange would have ended.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

isis approaches Israel.
http://www.ibtimes.com/isis-approaches-israel-islamic-state-loyalists-thwarted-syrian-rebels-along-golan-1931033


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm not sure why this bothers me so, Patty. They're far from pleasant folks, but I suppose it's the first time I've heard them express hate toward little children and babies. Maybe I've been naive, but I always assumed the D & P crowd were more or less decent, normal folks, however extreme their politics. Apparently not--they're poisonous through and through.


 I do think that those who don't agree are not going to argue with what anyone says on that thread so it makes it appear as if each and everyone believe the two of them. I wonder if all of them really believe what is being stated as fact.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 wrote:
I'm not sure why this bothers me so, Patty. They're far from pleasant folks, but I suppose it's the first time I've heard them express hate toward little children and babies. Maybe I've been naive, but I always assumed the D & P crowd were more or less decent, normal folks, however extreme their politics. Apparently not--they're poisonous through and through.

designer1234
I do think that those who don't agree are not going to argue with what anyone says on that thread so it makes it appear as if each and everyone believe the two of them. I wonder if all of them really believe what is being stated as fact.

I haven't been able to determine what we're discussing. Help. damemary


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> In that case every man uses his wife as a broodmare and every wife uses her husband as a stallion--since the majority of married people want kids.


But how many want to have two full baseball teams, and work their way to two full football teams? I cannot fathom how parents can nurture the specialness of each child when there are so many children, either. And most families cannot afford to provide event the basics of a modest life for that many children.

Sure, most couples want children, but I shudder at the idea of only seeing each other as breeders. It is like running a stud farm for humans, not creating a family.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> That would be Marilyn, who may not get back until Monday night, when the holiday of Shavuot ends.


Tuesday, actually. We are Ashkenaz Orthodox and observe both days.

I do not believe in extremism in most cases. It generally leads to disaster.

But in the history of the Jewish people, so much effort has been done to eradicate us either through social means like preventing observance or through out and out murder that sometimes we need the radical extremist to shout at us to remind us to stay vigilant and not let ourselves disappear as a people. Rabbi Kahane woke up some people although his solutions were beyond the realm of realism or possibility if a stable world were to ensue.

And it is hard to see people condemn him and support the avowed enemies who swear to destroy the Jewish people. The stone throwers, the bomb vest wearers, the destroyers of historic treasures are, in my view, much more to be condemned and contained than a big mouth rabble rouser.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you for giving me something new to worry about.


Actually, I use agave syrup. D is allergic to honey so I had to stop using that as my liquid sweetener to feed the yeast.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I am talking about searching for statements made on these Political threads.
> 
> I certainly had to go back sometimes when I waslooking after the workshops. Sometimes to check on dates, or agreements or discussions I had with teachers. It is the posts here that I don't look for.
> 
> ...


You really do not need to pay attention to derogatory remarks made about you. There were the ones questioning your veracity that said much more about the accuser than about you.

You know who you are and what your values are. Your friends agree with your self evaluation and I imagine the rest of the group love and appreciate you as much as I do.

When I was young I worried about what people thought of me. As I have grown older and am more secure in who I am, I don't care what people think about me. In the words of the immortal Popeye, "I yam who I yam." I find so many lovely people in the world whom I like and appreciate, that there is really no time to waste on the sourpusses.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> You really do not need to pay attention to derogatory remarks made about you. There were the ones questioning your veracity that said much more about the accuser than about you.
> 
> You know who you are and what your values are. Your friends agree with your self evaluation and I imagine the rest of the group love and appreciate you as much as I do.
> 
> When I was young I worried about what people thought of me. As I have grown older and am more secure in who I am, I don't care what people think about me. In the words of the immortal Popeye, "I yam who I yam." I find so many lovely people in the world whom I like and appreciate, that there is really no time to waste on the sourpusses.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> You really do not need to pay attention to derogatory remarks made about you. There were the ones questioning your veracity that said much more about the accuser than about you.
> 
> You know who you are and what your values are. Your friends agree with your self evaluation and I imagine the rest of the group love and appreciate you as much as I do.
> 
> When I was young I worried about what people thought of me. As I have grown older and am more secure in who I am, I don't care what people think about me. In the words of the immortal Popeye, "I yam who I yam." I find so many lovely people in the world whom I like and appreciate, that there is really no time to waste on the sourpusses.


Thanks Marilyn. I don't worry at all about it now but was quite sick at the time and it seemed overwhelming for a short period of time. I was just explaining why I don't go back and read - there is enough nastiness each day. Certainly a lot less now thank heavens for and from all of us.

Gerslay twisted what I said - best to have ignored her.

How are you doing? I enjoy your posts I learn from you and agree with you, as I do all the others on this thread.

We are going out for a drive today and explore another part of this area. We are getting to know it very well.
It is 8:30 am Tuesday and I just finished washing my painted quilt that I made in Arizona - it was my first quilt and changed my life. Friends from there taught me how to put my painted panels together and l8 of them hand quilted each
panel. I have used it on special occasions but it needed some attention. It turned out beautifully and I am really happy that it did. I have been asked to take it to the Seniors group on Wednesday and decided to wash it in cold water and slowly dry it. worked out really well.

Take care everyone -- will be back later. We will be leaving in about an hour and will be gone for a few hours.

S


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Tuesday, actually. We are Ashkenaz Orthodox and observe both days.
> 
> I do not believe in extremism in most cases. It generally leads to disaster.
> 
> ...


Monday night _is_ Tuesday.

"Rabble rousing rabbi," in fact.

But you're right about the choices made these days to protect and support the more destructive ones, while convincing oneself they're the underdog.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Monday night _is_ Tuesday.
> 
> "Rabble rousing rabbi," in fact.
> 
> But you're right about the choices made these days to protect and support the more destructive ones, while convincing oneself they're the underdog.


We had company for dinner Monday and they didn't leave until 9:30. We were having such a pleasant time it was hard to end the evening, but we all had things to do and places to be Tuesday morning.

Maybe Israel needs to hire some hot shot Mad Ave types to promote her interests in the media. Seems to be one of the few ways to get people's attention to worthy causes. It is hard to walk the high road when there are IEDs laid out along the way.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> We had company for dinner Monday and they didn't leave until 9:30. We were having such a pleasant time it was hard to end the evening, but we all had things to do and places to be Tuesday morning.
> 
> Maybe Israel needs to hire some hot shot Mad Ave types to promote her interests in the media. Seems to be one of the few ways to get people's attention to worthy causes. It is hard to walk the high road when there are IEDs laid out along the way.


What a clever way to put it.

Somehow Hamas managed to hire great PR people, though they continue to cry poverty. You're right: Israel needs to find an equally good firm. The American intelligentsia are sure to be taken in by them, just as they were taken in by Hamas's.

Britain's won't, and they've already done a lot of damage, though not to the Israeli government; only to Israeli scholars and scientists. What are they trying to accomplish by leaving Israeli scientists unable to publish their research? Do they expect Hamas scientists to replace the Israeli ones?


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> What a clever way to put it.
> 
> Somehow Hamas managed to hire great PR people, though they continue to cry poverty. You're right: Israel needs to find an equally good firm. The American intelligentsia are sure to be taken in by them, just as they were taken in by Hamas's.
> 
> Britain's won't, and they've already done a lot of damage, though not to the Israeli government; only to Israeli scholars and scientists. What are they trying to accomplish by leaving Israeli scientists unable to publish their research? Do they expect Hamas scientists to replace the Israeli ones?


Many people don't want to acknowledge what the world would be like if there had not been Einstein, Salk, Sabin, Freud, Bohr, Weisel, Gershwin, et. al. ad inf. A sadder and sicker place.

Take away the medical advances, the music, the literature, the knowledge of physics and chemistry that were given to the world by talented Jewish people, and see how the void would be filled and by whom. Anybody out there? Hello! Hello!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Many people don't want to acknowledge what the world would be like if there had not been Einstein, Salk, Sabin, Freud, Bohr, Weisel, Gershwin, et. al. ad inf. A sadder and sicker place.
> 
> Take away the medical advances, the music, the literature, the knowledge of physics and chemistry that were given to the world by talented Jewish people, and see how the void would be filled and by whom. Anybody out there? Hello! Hello!


You are so right! The world would be a completely different place if we hadn't had them to discover medical improvements, wonderful music and other benefits that has changed our world for the better.

I don't understand that type of intolerance. Anti Semitism is a dreadful disease in my opinion. Anti anything is something we should always be aware of and we should make sure we are not allowing ourselves to judge people of other faiths, other cultures, other colors. or any one who is different. I am not talking about things like 
Isis -that is a group of terrorists, and they must be watched and not ignored.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> You are so right! The world would be a completely different place if we hadn't had them to discover medical improvements, wonderful music and other benefits that has changed our world for the better.
> 
> I don't understand that type of intolerance. Anti Semitism is a dreadful disease in my opinion. Anti anything is something we should always be aware of and we should make sure we are not allowing ourselves to judge people of other faiths, other cultures, other colors. or any one who is different. I am not talking about things like
> Isis -that is a group of terrorists, and they must be watched and not ignored.


That is so true, Shirley. I grew up in a town where there was so much diversity that we saw one another as people not as stereotypes. My parents were both so different from the stereotypical New York Jews as depicted in movies that nobody could typecast them. Dad was smart and a good businessman, but liked to play pool in the afternoon when I got to the store to wait on customers and Mother was there to handle the register. She did hospital auxiliary and B&PW sorts of things. Not one spoiled, snooty, wise mouth among us. (I got to wise mouth later in life). When friends and I talked about religion it was questions about rituals to better understand one another. It was a lovely way to live. If more people tried it the world might be a better place.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Many people don't want to acknowledge what the world would be like if there had not been Einstein, Salk, Sabin, Freud, Bohr, Weisel, Gershwin, et. al. ad inf. A sadder and sicker place.
> 
> Take away the medical advances, the music, the literature, the knowledge of physics and chemistry that were given to the world by talented Jewish people, and see how the void would be filled and by whom. Anybody out there? Hello! Hello!


Well, there was Linus Pauling, though he got a little goofy toward the end.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Well, there was Linus Pauling, though he got a little goofy toward the end.


Jewish people have enriched all our lives in so many ways. Three of my favorites are Bette Midler, my favorite singer, Dr. Ivan Brodsky, my neurologist who saved my life over twenty five years ago and Bernie Sanders who I want for president and I get to meet on Sunday. My deepest gratitude to them all!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm here.



MarilynKnits said:


> Many people don't want to acknowledge what the world would be like if there had not been Einstein, Salk, Sabin, Freud, Bohr, Weisel, Gershwin, et. al. ad inf. A sadder and sicker place.
> 
> Take away the medical advances, the music, the literature, the knowledge of physics and chemistry that were given to the world by talented Jewish people, and see how the void would be filled and by whom. Anybody out there? Hello! Hello!


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> I'm here.


And from your track record here you would probably do a better job with sensible solutions than some of the yoyos running for office. D said that worse than that, once they get into office they don't do anything they promise, just lie, cheat, steal and take bribes. Shades of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Jewish people have enriched all our lives in so many ways. Three of my favorites are Bette Midler, my favorite singer, Dr. Ivan Brodsky, my neurologist who saved my life over twenty five years ago and Bernie Sanders who I want for president and I get to meet on Sunday. My deepest gratitude to them all!


You're meeting Bernie Sanders? Yay!!!


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## Dangrktty (Feb 22, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> And from your track record here you would probably do a better job with sensible solutions than some of the yoyos running for office. D said that worse than that, once they get into office they don't do anything they promise, just lie, cheat, steal and take bribes. Shades of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire.


Welcome to reality and the status quo.
Lie, cheat, steal, take bribes, and break promises... life in the 21st century is different from everything that has ever happened since the dawn of time ?
Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, and Washington warned us about this more than 200 years ago.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> That is so true, Shirley. I grew up in a town where there was so much diversity that we saw one another as people not as stereotypes. My parents were both so different from the stereotypical New York Jews as depicted in movies that nobody could typecast them. Dad was smart and a good businessman, but liked to play pool in the afternoon when I got to the store to wait on customers and Mother was there to handle the register. She did hospital auxiliary and B&PW sorts of things. Not one spoiled, snooty, wise mouth among us. (I got to wise mouth later in life). When friends and I talked about religion it was questions about rituals to better understand one another. It was a lovely way to live. If more people tried it the world might be a better place.


Your post is so true and the most important sentence is the one that reads 


> When friends and I talked about religion it was questions about rituals to better understand one another.


I taught that the most important thing in life is to question and then question the replies you get. So many people do not question, they merely accept.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I taught that the most important thing in life is to question and then question the replies you get. So many people do not question, they merely accept.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Non sequitur warning: Yesterday David and Jonathan and I spent all day in a neuropsych's office for testing. When David and I had finished filling out the caregivers questionnaire (25 pages of fine print) he said we should have done this twenty years ago. Twenty years ago we did not have it done because he refused for any such testing to be done. Hallelujah for both his change of attitude, and the fact that we finally did take care of it. We will learn the results next Thursday evening.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Camacho said:


> Non sequitur warning: Yesterday David and Jonathan and I spent all day in a neuropsych's office for testing. When David and I had finished filling out the caregivers questionnaire (25 pages of fine print) he said we should have done this twenty years ago. Twenty years ago we did not have it done because he refused for any such testing to be done. Hallelujah for both his change of attitude, and the fact that we finally did take care of it. We will learn the results next Thursday evening.


Here's hoping the prognosis is hopeful. There have been so many advances in treatment. Best wishes for sure!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

The babies are coming! Dil's water broke. I'll let you know.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The babies are coming! Dil's water broke. I'll let you know.


Praying . :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Praying . :thumbup:


Thanks, CB! They just took her to surgery.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, CB! They just took her to surgery.


This is such exciting news KFN! How is everything?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Amazing. Hope all goes well.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Weve not heard anything yet. But they played the lullaby over the loudspeaker FOUR times. That means they're here!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Weve not heard anything yet. But they played the lullaby over the loudspeaker FOUR times. That means they're here!


Very cool, Nebraska. Fingers crossed that all is well. :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

They think everything is good. All 4 are breathing on their own. They weigh between 3 1/2 lb and almost 5 lbs. More later. Praise GOD!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Mazel Tov. This is unbelievable. And they are biggies. Many More!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Tears of joy!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Thank you, everybody! I haven't seen them yet, only pictures.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you, everybody! I haven't seen them yet, only pictures.


Please post. What are the genders?


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## Bombshellknits (Feb 2, 2013)

I can't believe I am stupid enough to chime in on this thread. And, I only read two pages. With the abortion issue: Murder is a crime, and it is illegal to commit murder. Abortion is legal.


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## painthoss (Jul 10, 2012)

.


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## painthoss (Jul 10, 2012)

Congrats and best wishes, KFN, sending warmest wishes to everyone!


Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you, everybody! I haven't seen them yet, only pictures.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Please post. What are the genders?


Two boys and two girls!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Please post. What are the genders?


Two boys and two girls!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The babies are coming! Dil's water broke. I'll let you know.


YEAH!!!!! Prayers and a lot of them!!!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> They think everything is good. All 4 are breathing on their own. They weigh between 3 1/2 lb and almost 5 lbs. More later. Praise GOD!


Neb my baby girl weighed 5 pds 1 oz and had no problems.

Those are a great weight for carrying 4 babies. It is like a miracle. So wonderful. She worked so hard to do what she was asked to do to keep them healthy while they were growing. Tell her a friend of yours admires her and can imagine how hard it has been this last while. What a joy!!

Let us know when you see them. what a wonderful adventure is starting for you all. Congratulations! Grandma!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The babies are coming! Dil's water broke. I'll let you know.


Good news! Dil must be relieved not to have to tote those rascals around any more.

Wish them all my best.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> They think everything is good. All 4 are breathing on their own. They weigh between 3 1/2 lb and almost 5 lbs. More later. Praise GOD!


 :thumbup:


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The babies are coming! Dil's water broke. I'll let you know.


Praying for everything to go well with happiness to all in the family.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> They think everything is good. All 4 are breathing on their own. They weigh between 3 1/2 lb and almost 5 lbs. More later. Praise GOD!


Wonderful start to what we hope will be four long, healthy, happy lives. Tons of love coming their way.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Bombshellknits said:


> I can't believe I am stupid enough to chime in on this thread. And, I only read two pages. With the abortion issue: Murder is a crime, and it is illegal to commit murder. Abortion is legal.


This comment is so far out of line in the midst of our celebrating Nan's new grandchildren it may as well have come from Mars. If you don't know what you are doing here, maybe reconsider before you participate. Good wishes to the young family would be in order.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> This comment is so far out of line in the midst of our celebrating Nan's new grandchildren it may as well have come from Mars. If you don't know what you are doing here, maybe reconsider before you participate. Good wishes to the young family would be in order.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Thank you, everybody! I've got pictures on my phone, but my phone is dead. So, in a little while... But now for the update: Baby A is Kayla. She weighed in at 4 lb 3.7 oz. Baby B is Leonidas. He weighed 3 lb 7.7 oz. Baby C is Thomas. He weighed 4 lb 13.3 oz. And last is Arya. She weighed 3 lb 14 oz. They are BEAUTIFUL! All four were breathing on their own. Three had to be given surfactant to assist with their lung development. Thomas and Arya were breathing hard and fast before we left. They said they might have to insert breathing tubes, so they don't overexert themselves. They said that was not unusual. 

Mama is doing well. When we left (around 6), she still hasn't been allowed to go to the NICU to see them, as she was recovering from the spinal anesthesia and the C section. I hope she's gotten to see them by now. 

Max is tired and crabby. He spent the afternoon playing with his cousins, and he's had enough. So, I brought him to our house for a bath and bed. It's been a long day. I'll post pictures as soon as my phone charges up.

PS: I think the names are a little strange, but I wasn't consulted.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> -----Baby A is Kayla. She weighed in at 4 lb 3.7 oz. Baby B is Leonidas. He weighed 3 lb 7.7 oz. Baby C is Thomas. He weighed 4 lb 13.3 oz. And last is Arya. She weighed 3 lb 14 oz. -----
> PS: I think the names are a little strange, but I wasn't consulted.


Think of "a rose by any other name will smell as sweet" - Old Bill was pretty clever.

Whatever their names, as long as they are healthy that is the most important. And I am sure you love them to pieces.

Those are beautiful weights, respectable even for twins. Mommy must be relieved to have almost 20 lbs. of baby out of her. By a year from now chasing in five different directions I am sure all the baby weight will be gone, too.

I'm babbling, I am so happy and relieved for you and your family.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Congratulations, KFN! I am very happy for you and your whole family. So happy all the babies are good weights. Bless you all! :-D


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you, everybody! I've got pictures on my phone, but my phone is dead. So, in a little while... But now for the update: Baby A is Kayla. She weighed in at 4 lb 3.7 oz. Baby B is Leonidas. He weighed 3 lb 7.7 oz. Baby C is Thomas. He weighed 4 lb 13.3 oz. And last is Arya. She weighed 3 lb 14 oz. They are BEAUTIFUL! All four were breathing on their own. Three had to be given surfactant to assist with their lung development. Thomas and Arya were breathing hard and fast before we left. They said they might have to insert breathing tubes, so they don't overexert themselves. They said that was not unusual.
> 
> Mama is doing well. When we left (around 6), she still hasn't been allowed to go to the NICU to see them, as she was recovering from the spinal anesthesia and the C section. I hope she's gotten to see them by now.
> 
> ...


Ok, here goes. I hope i remember how to post pics.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you, everybody! I've got pictures on my phone, but my phone is dead. So, in a little while... But now for the update: Baby A is Kayla. She weighed in at 4 lb 3.7 oz. Baby B is Leonidas. He weighed 3 lb 7.7 oz. Baby C is Thomas. He weighed 4 lb 13.3 oz. And last is Arya. She weighed 3 lb 14 oz. They are BEAUTIFUL! All four were breathing on their own. Three had to be given surfactant to assist with their lung development. Thomas and Arya were breathing hard and fast before we left. They said they might have to insert breathing tubes, so they don't overexert themselves. They said that was not unusual.
> 
> Mama is doing well. When we left (around 6), she still hasn't been allowed to go to the NICU to see them, as she was recovering from the spinal anesthesia and the C section. I hope she's gotten to see them by now.
> 
> ...


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Think of "a rose by any other name will smell as sweet" - Old Bill was pretty clever.
> 
> Whatever their names, as long as they are healthy that is the most important. And I am sure you love them to pieces.
> 
> ...


What great weights for four babies!! unbelievable. I don't remember ever hearing of 4 babies weighing those weights. It will give them a great start.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

The babies are unbelievably adorable Granny. What are you going to have them call you? I love the names. Thomas is conventional so that one is for you. Were they named for anyone? I hope their last name is not Finkelstein - then you would have an issue.

Just Amazing. Keep posting pics. It makes me so happy to see them. Wish we could throw you a virtual shower.


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## Country Bumpkins (Feb 18, 2011)

Beautiful babies KFN. God is Good.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Ok, here goes. I hope i remember how to post pics.


The pictures are fine. Amazing how individual those little people are, even at this early and tiny stage.

As for the names, nothing wrong with Thomas. I have a niece named Kayla, so that's okay. Arya is a character on Game of Thrones, and a very plucky girl. That leaves Leonidas, who I think was a Greek king or hero of some kind; I hope he's not colicky, because if he is, this is what you'll have to look forward to.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> The babies are unbelievably adorable Granny. What are you going to have them call you? I love the names. Thomas is conventional so that one is for you. Were they named for anyone? I hope their last name is not Finkelstein - then you would have an issue.
> 
> Just Amazing. Keep posting pics. It makes me so happy to see them. Wish we could throw you a virtual shower.


I'm Grandma. Kayla was kind of named after me and other Grandma. Both of us, have the middle name, Kay. You know my last name. It is very common.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> The pictures are fine. Amazing how individual those little people are, even at this early and tiny stage.
> 
> As for the names, nothing wrong with Thomas. I have a niece named Kayla, so that's okay. Arya is a character on Game of Thrones, and a very plucky girl. That leaves Leonidas, who I think was a Greek king or hero of some kind; I hope he's not colicky, because if he is, this is what you'll have to look forward to.


Yup! Both Leonidas and Arya were named from movies, as was Max (Maximus).


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Country Bumpkins said:


> Beautiful babies KFN. God is Good.


That HE is!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

The babies are beautiful. So happy they are breathing well. Thank you so much for letting all of us here on KP share the joy.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

The babies are gorgeous and they all look like little individuals with their own personalities. I just had to smile looking at their faces. Thanks for sharing the photos with us. :-D


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## Gerslay (Oct 4, 2011)

KFN: Praise God for this miracle. All the babies have very good weights and each one is beautiful. What a wonderful and blessed time is ahead for you and all your family. Congratulations!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Yup! Both Leonidas and Arya were named from movies, as was Max (Maximus).


You should be happy not one is named Lemony Snickett.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> You should be happy not one is named Lemony Snickett.


You are so outrageously funny.

And it was very sweet of Gers to post and Bumps also.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> You are so outrageously funny.
> 
> And it was very sweet of Gers to post and Bumps also.


If I wanted to be outrageously funny, I would have said she was lucky they weren't named Manny, Moe, Nate, and Zeke.

Or Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I"ve been going crazy trying to finish their take home outfits and diaper covers. I've finally finished the diaper covers. Here they are.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

And here are the take home outfits. The dresses just need buttons. The boys outfits are almost done. I've got about half the back of one, to finish knitting. Then sew the side seams and rib around the legs. They're all knit in Dalegarn Stork, size 1 needles for the dresses and size 0 needles for the boys outfits.

The dresses are pastel pink and lavender. But the picture makes them look darker.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I"ve been going crazy trying to finish their take home outfits and diaper covers. I've finally finished the diaper covers. Here they are.


Can you make these in adult sizes to go over Depends? They are adorable.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> You are so outrageously funny.
> 
> And it was very sweet of Gers to post and Bumps also.


 I Agree - we are all so happy that the babies arrived safely and it sounds as if they are doing extremely well.

Differences don't mean a thing when it comes to beautiful babies arriving.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Can you make these in adult sizes to go over Depends? They are adorable.


Lol! I don't think so. I'll probably be busy sewing more, every time they grow into a new size. Every one has 18 snaps that have to be put on with a tool. Tedious and time consuming!


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Congratulations, KFN! That was a lot of baby for their mommy to carry around. I'm glad they are all healthy and good weights. Have fun with them.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Lol! I don't think so. I'll probably be busy sewing more, every time they grow into a new size. Every one has 18 snaps that have to be put on with a tool. Tedious and time consuming!


I am no longer calling you Nebs. I am re-christening you GN for Grandma Nebs.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Lol! I don't think so. I'll probably be busy sewing more, every time they grow into a new size. Every one has 18 snaps that have to be put on with a tool. Tedious and time consuming!


The peace and silence of your retirement is about to be broken by the sweet squeals and screams of your grandkids. Congratulations.


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## InnStitches (May 27, 2015)

Designer1234 said:


> What great weights for four babies!! unbelievable. I don't remember ever hearing of 4 babies weighing those weights. It will give them a great start.


They're pretty babes too. Sometimes they can be all shriveled up. Know what I mean?. Like they still have to grow into their skin. But they're vwry adorable.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Two boys and two girls!


Congratulations Gramma! 2 of each! That is fabulous. You must be all about and over-under at the mo. :-D


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Ok, here goes. I hope i remember how to post pics.


OMG! I think I'm going to cry!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> The pictures are fine. Amazing how individual those little people are, even at this early and tiny stage.
> 
> As for the names, nothing wrong with Thomas. I have a niece named Kayla, so that's okay. Arya is a character on Game of Thrones, and a very plucky girl. That leaves Leonidas, who I think was a Greek king or hero of some kind; I hope he's not colicky, because if he is, this is what you'll have to look forward to.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: Pretty cute guy though!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I think we all realize the difference Neb's help and support made. Mom never could have made it so far without her....and I'm also sure it is special to Max too. It's too easy for the rest of the family to feel slighted when multiples arrive. No danger here. Bravo! Best wishes to all.



Designer1234 said:


> Neb my baby girl weighed 5 pds 1 oz and had no problems.
> 
> Those are a great weight for carrying 4 babies. It is like a miracle. So wonderful. She worked so hard to do what she was asked to do to keep them healthy while they were growing. Tell her a friend of yours admires her and can imagine how hard it has been this last while. What a joy!!
> 
> Let us know when you see them. what a wonderful adventure is starting for you all. Congratulations! Grandma!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> This comment is so far out of line in the midst of our celebrating Nan's new grandchildren it may as well have come from Mars. If you don't know what you are doing here, maybe reconsider before you participate. Good wishes to the young family would be in order.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm Grandma. Kayla was kind of named after me and other Grandma. Both of us, have the middle name, Kay. You know my last name. It is very common.


Well Grandma, I am so happy and delighted for you, your DIL and DS and Max. The babies are truly beautiful and such good weights! I love all the names and I am so thankful that all is well. Enjoy KFN, you all deserve to.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You should be happy not one is named Lemony Snickett.


Now, he's also cute in a robust sort of way.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> If I wanted to be outrageously funny, I would have said she was lucky they weren't named Manny, Moe, Nate, and Zeke.
> 
> Or Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I"ve been going crazy trying to finish their take home outfits and diaper covers. I've finally finished the diaper covers. Here they are.


Oh, wow! They're terrific. You are clever and kind and I would like a Grandma like you. :-D


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Can you make these in adult sizes to go over Depends? They are adorable.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Hey, 'Grandma' may need to be updated to a super-hero status. 

Those babies are so beautiful. Grandma & Mom did a great job of keeping them in utero for 30+ weeks. I bet the medical team are pleased. 

I guess 'Mom and Dad' need updates too. Much happiness to all.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I noticed the nice rounded knees. Can you imagine the tiny feet? And can you imagine eight tiny feet kicking inside. Mom is a trouper.



InnStitches said:


> They're pretty babes too. Sometimes they can be all shriveled up. Know what I mean?. Like they still have to grow into their skin. But they're vwry adorable.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I noticed the nice rounded knees. Can you imagine the tiny feet? And can you imagine eight tiny feet kicking inside. Mom is a trouper.


All of the babies are well covered too. Mum did good with her diet.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My guess is Grandma had something to do with that too.



Wombatnomore said:


> All of the babies are well covered too. Mum did good with her diet.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And here are the take home outfits. The dresses just need buttons. The boys outfits are almost done. I've got about half the back of one, to finish knitting. Then sew the side seams and rib around the legs. They're all knit in Dalegarn Stork, size 1 needles for the dresses and size 0 needles for the boys outfits.
> 
> The dresses are pastel pink and lavender. But the picture makes them look darker.


They are absolutely adorable, but I have one question to ask you. When do you sleep? You have been so busy.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> Hey, 'Grandma' may need to be updated to a super-hero status.
> 
> Those babies are so beautiful. Grandma & Mom did a great job of keeping them in utero for 30+ weeks. I bet the medical team are pleased.
> 
> I guess 'Mom and Dad' need updates too. Much happiness to all.


Aren't they something? I was so concerned that the pregnancy wouldn't go well, but things turned out perfectly--and the babies are so cute! Nebraska's knitting needles are really going to be busy knitting for that crew.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> Hey, 'Grandma' may need to be updated to a super-hero status.
> 
> Those babies are so beautiful. Grandma & Mom did a great job of keeping them in utero for 30+ weeks. I bet the medical team are pleased.


I don't doubt it. I can just picture the faces in the delivery room--all smiles. Multiple births are tricky, but Mom, Dad, and the medical team did a fantastic job with this one.


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## lins (Jan 8, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Ok, here goes. I hope i remember how to post pics.


Congratulations! 
Those babies are absolutely beautiful and wonderful!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I"ve been going crazy trying to finish their take home outfits and diaper covers. I've finally finished the diaper covers. Here they are.


A very cute picture. It calls to mind all the little tushes that will be under those covers.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And here are the take home outfits. The dresses just need buttons. The boys outfits are almost done. I've got about half the back of one, to finish knitting. Then sew the side seams and rib around the legs. They're all knit in Dalegarn Stork, size 1 needles for the dresses and size 0 needles for the boys outfits.
> 
> The dresses are pastel pink and lavender. But the picture makes them look darker.


How beautiful they are. And how much patience you must have to do all that knitting on size 0 and 1.


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## Bombshellknits (Feb 2, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> This comment is so far out of line in the midst of our celebrating Nan's new grandchildren it may as well have come from Mars. If you don't know what you are doing here, maybe reconsider before you participate. Good wishes to the young family would be in order.


Oops! Sorry. I think I DID mention I only read two pages. BTW women are from Venus, not Mars. Did you not know that? See, I can snark with the rest of you. I did not realize it was mandatory to send good wishes to Nan. You should have told me the rules. Or are they written in Martian??


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> All of the babies are well covered too. Mum did good with her diet.


IIRC, a lot of work by others went into keeping her eating when she thought she couldn't take in any more. Good job all around.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Bombshellknits said:


> Oops! Sorry. I think I DID mention I only read two pages. BTW women are from Venus, not Mars. Did you not know that? See, I can snark with the rest of you. I did not realize it was mandatory to send good wishes to Nan. You should have told me the rules. Or are they written in Martian??


And you are from a black hole. Move closer to the event horizon and disappear into another dimension.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska

Congratulations to all in the Family, particularly Mom. She sure did a splendid job. The Babies are looking wonderful.
Thank you for the pictures.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

If they didn't sleep then, now and the forseeable future is sleep walking time. hugs



EveMCooke said:


> They are absolutely adorable, but I have one question to ask you. When do you sleep? You have been so busy.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The diaper covers are adorable...and so time-consuming...and so needed....even before the growing starts.



susanmos2000 said:


> Aren't they something? I was so concerned that the pregnancy wouldn't go well, but things turned out perfectly--and the babies are so cute! Nebraska's knitting needles are really going to be busy knitting for that crew.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> And you are from a black hole. Move closer to the event horizon and disappear into another dimension.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> The diaper covers are adorable...and so time-consuming...and so needed....even before the growing starts.


Absolutely--Nebraska deserves a lot of credit. Doubtless the pregnancy wouldn't have gone nearly as smoothly without her concern and her help. Cheers! :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Bombshellknits said:


> Oops! Sorry. I think I DID mention I only read two pages. BTW women are from Venus, not Mars. Did you not know that? See, I can snark with the rest of you. I did not realize it was mandatory to send good wishes to Nan. You should have told me the rules. Or are they written in Martian??


Alert!!! Weirdo is visiting us!!! Ignore, ignore!!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Nebs, did you get any sleep last night? Is Max staying with you? Please take care of yourself and get some rest. You can only push yourself so far! 

Give Max a hug. Is there going to be extra help when she gets home? Wow, what an adventure you have in store for you. 

Wish we all lived closer so we could give you a break looking after that sweet little boy. He will need you a lot this next while. How is your dil? I imagine she and your son are so relieved.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Absolutely--Nebraska deserves a lot of credit. Doubtless the pregnancy wouldn't have gone nearly as smoothly without her concern and her help. Cheers! :thumbup:


Nebs has worked very, very hard and everyone is so pleased, happy and relieved that everything went fine. I had my fingers crossed for weeks. I hope Max understands that he now has four siblings to share his parents and his nan's attention. Big hugs to Max.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And here are the take home outfits. The dresses just need buttons. The boys outfits are almost done. I've got about half the back of one, to finish knitting. Then sew the side seams and rib around the legs. They're all knit in Dalegarn Stork, size 1 needles for the dresses and size 0 needles for the boys outfits.
> 
> The dresses are pastel pink and lavender. But the picture makes them look darker.


They are going to be the best dressed quartet in the country. You do such nice work, great detail and charming garments.


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## lins (Jan 8, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> They are going to be the best dressed quartet in the country. You do such nice work, great detail and charming garments.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Bombshellknits said:


> Oops! Sorry. I think I DID mention I only read two pages. BTW women are from Venus, not Mars. Did you not know that? See, I can snark with the rest of you. I did not realize it was mandatory to send good wishes to Nan. You should have told me the rules. Or are they written in Martian??


Sometimes when I begin to read a thread there is something that I would like to respond to, but tend to at least try to wade through the rest of the thread before posting anything. My heart goes out to Bombshellknits. All she did was respond to something in the first two pages of this thread that had gone on over 120 pages by the time she saw the first two pages. Of course by now we have discussed many many different things and the most current happens to be Nan's lovely new grandchildren. But I cannot condemn Bombshellknits for typing faster than she read. The babies have been woven in and out and around this thread for quite a while, but if it wasn't in the first two pages, I can't condemn her for not automatically joining in the joy of the actual babies, since reading only the first two pages does not convey all the angst/anxiety that has been part of this discussion for quite some time. I have never seen any of bombshellknit's posts other than on this thread so I don't know this individual at all, but I would be inclined to be more welcoming than condemning of someone who just happened to make a statement about something that was not under discussion at the moment and had not been discussed in a while. Heaven help anyone who started reading at page one of #1.

How does an occasional non sequitur detract from anyone else's well-earned joy? I certainly hope it didn't in this case, and know that in reality nothing can detract from joy. (My religion's teachings include the statement "Joy constitutes man.") You all do not want to know how many times I have missed a forum for a while because I was either traveling or couldn't see my computer, and felt completely at sea for a little while until I had either caught up, or simply given up on seeing what I may have missed. Jumping into a new thread can be really hard for some of us.

OK. you have seen my knee-jerk tirade against people not welcoming new people. I promise to go back to being the quiet little girl in the corner now. Everyone on KP has certainly been very welcoming to me.

We are not from Mars OR from Venus, by the way.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I wish I could thank every one of you individually, for your kind remarks. I REALLY do appreciate it. Thank you, SO much!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Nebs, did you get any sleep last night? Is Max staying with you? Please take care of yourself and get some rest. You can only push yourself so far!
> 
> Give Max a hug. Is there going to be extra help when she gets home? Wow, what an adventure you have in store for you.
> 
> Wish we all lived closer so we could give you a break looking after that sweet little boy. He will need you a lot this next while. How is your dil? I imagine she and your son are so relieved.


I managed to get a few hours of sleep. We had Max overnight and tonight, his other Grandma is going to stay with him at his house. I kind of wish he were just going to stay with us, because she can't handle him. But she's going to have her adult granddaughter stay to help her. I just think his life is in too much turmoil right now. He needs structure. He's been having quite a few meltdowns, which are more difficult to deal with in a public setting (the hospital). He's wearing me out but I still think he just needs "normal". Or as normal as normal can be, right now. They've made arrangements for him to be at dils brother's, tomorrow. That worries me. Their own kids are on autopilot, and I can't imagine Max, on autopilot.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I managed to get a few hours of sleep. We had Max overnight and tonight, his other Grandma is going to stay with him at his house. I kind of wish he were just going to stay with us, because she can't handle him. But she's going to have her adult granddaughter stay to help her. I just think his life is in too much turmoil right now. He needs structure. He's been having quite a few meltdowns, which are more difficult to deal with in a public setting (the hospital). He's wearing me out but I still think he just needs "normal". Or as normal as normal can be, right now. They've made arrangements for him to be at dils brother's, tomorrow. That worries me. Their own kids are on autopilot, and I can't imagine Max, on autopilot.


Sometimes you have to bite your tongue, take a deep breath and hope for the best. Max is their child and who watches him right now is their decision.

Quite probably they have compassion for your trying to keep up with him amid all the excitement, and want to take some of the stress off your back. I am sure everybody on both sides of the family loves Max and will do their best for him.


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

This [KP] "family" loves Max, too, and are all pulling for both of you.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Camacho said:


> This [KP] "family" loves Max, too, and are all pulling for both of you.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Sometimes you have to bite your tongue, take a deep breath and hope for the best. Max is their child and who watches him right now is their decision.
> 
> Quite probably they have compassion for your trying to keep up with him amid all the excitement, and want to take some of the stress off your back. I am sure everybody on both sides of the family loves Max and will do their best for him.


Of course, you're right about everything (almost). But I'm right too. My son and dil are trying to give me a break and a chance to be with the babies. But I can't help feeling guilty anyway. Dil's family has refused to watch Max for over two years because "they cannot handle him". In all of these months of pregnancy, they've not helped out for even an hour. I don't doubt that they love him, but they've no patience or understanding. They think he's just naughty. I feel bad for Max because these last two days have been very difficult for him. I just wish I could make his life as normal as possible. He needs structure and consistency. I think what would be best for Max, would be for me to stay home with him and keep him to his routines. But then, I wouldn't see the babies very much.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Camacho said:


> This [KP] "family" loves Max, too, and are all pulling for both of you.


Thanks, Camacho! I love Max more than anything. But these last two days are reminiscent of when I first started watching him. He's had so many meltdowns. They've been short and I've been able to get him to bring himself under control but it's so hard when we're in public. Last night at Chipolte, he picked up his plate of food and threw it across the room. Thankfully they weren't busy and no one was hit by flying beans and rice. But it took me a while to clean it up while Grandpa took Max outside. He also hit my glasses so hard, it cut the bridge of my nose. In between the meltdowns, he's as sweet as can be. I think he should be making very short visits to the hospital. He can't handle long periods in waiting rooms, no matter how many toys and activities I bring with me.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Thanks, Purl!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Congratulations, KFN!!!!! The babies are beautiful! Glad to hear things went smoothly and all are healthy.


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, Camacho! I love Max more than anything. But these last two days are reminiscent of when I first started watching him. He's had so many meltdowns. They've been short and I've been able to get him to bring himself under control but it's so hard when we're in public. Last night at Chipolte, he picked up his plate of food and threw it across the room. Thankfully they weren't busy and no one was hit by flying beans and rice. But it took me a while to clean it up while Grandpa took Max outside. He also hit my glasses so hard, it cut the bridge of my nose. In between the meltdowns, he's as sweet as can be. I think he should be making very short visits to the hospital. He can't handle long periods in waiting rooms, no matter how many toys and activities I bring with me.


Can short visits to the hospital be arranged? This must all be so mysterious and unsettling to him.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm inclined to give the parents the benefit of the doubt. They think you need a break. Maybe, at some point, you'll be able to talk to them about your feelings. They'll eventually see how much better Max does with more attention from you. I hope he comes to realize the babies need you all.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Of course, you're right about everything (almost). But I'm right too. My son and dil are trying to give me a break and a chance to be with the babies. But I can't help feeling guilty anyway. Dil's family has refused to watch Max for over two years because "they cannot handle him". In all of these months of pregnancy, they've not helped out for even an hour. I don't doubt that they love him, but they've no patience or understanding. They think he's just naughty. I feel bad for Max because these last two days have been very difficult for him. I just wish I could make his life as normal as possible. He needs structure and consistency. I think what would be best for Max, would be for me to stay home with him and keep him to his routines. But then, I wouldn't see the babies very much.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Hours in a hospital waiting room are too much to expect from any child under 12 IMHO. Take care. Tell them it's too much for you if you need an excuse.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, Camacho! I love Max more than anything. But these last two days are reminiscent of when I first started watching him. He's had so many meltdowns. They've been short and I've been able to get him to bring himself under control but it's so hard when we're in public. Last night at Chipolte, he picked up his plate of food and threw it across the room. Thankfully they weren't busy and no one was hit by flying beans and rice. But it took me a while to clean it up while Grandpa took Max outside. He also hit my glasses so hard, it cut the bridge of my nose. In between the meltdowns, he's as sweet as can be. I think he should be making very short visits to the hospital. He can't handle long periods in waiting rooms, no matter how many toys and activities I bring with me.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I managed to get a few hours of sleep. We had Max overnight and tonight, his other Grandma is going to stay with him at his house. I kind of wish he were just going to stay with us, because she can't handle him. But she's going to have her adult granddaughter stay to help her. I just think his life is in too much turmoil right now. He needs structure. He's been having quite a few meltdowns, which are more difficult to deal with in a public setting (the hospital). He's wearing me out but I still think he just needs "normal". Or as normal as normal can be, right now. They've made arrangements for him to be at dils brother's, tomorrow. That worries me. Their own kids are on autopilot, and I can't imagine Max, on autopilot.


Just be there for Max when he needs you. I would also tell the others that they can bring Max to your house if they find he wears them out too much; just a friendly suggestion or gesture and not a demanding one. Kai would never stay with his father's mother because she lived in a 'perfect' house and she did not want him to make a mess and now at 41 years of age he still talks about spending time with my mother because she was relaxed and understood him. Max still needs his gran to give him hugs and spoil him. Unfortunately most people will pay attention to the new babies and he may be overlooked when the hugs are being handed out. Give him an extra big hug and let him play with your button collection. I seem to remember he likes playing with your button collection.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Of course, you're right about everything (almost). But I'm right too. My son and dil are trying to give me a break and a chance to be with the babies. But I can't help feeling guilty anyway. Dil's family has refused to watch Max for over two years because "they cannot handle him". In all of these months of pregnancy, they've not helped out for even an hour. I don't doubt that they love him, but they've no patience or understanding. They think he's just naughty. I feel bad for Max because these last two days have been very difficult for him. I just wish I could make his life as normal as possible. He needs structure and consistency. I think what would be best for Max, would be for me to stay home with him and keep him to his routines. But then, I wouldn't see the babies very much.


I definitely agree with you, Max needs structure and consistency. He is not just being naughty, he has specific needs. I also agree with you that it would be in Max's best interests if you stayed home with him and kept him to his routines. Some people do not understand that children with specific problems need their routines, their structure and consistency and I honestly believe you are the best person to provide this. Max knows you and you understand Max.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I think that after the weekend is over, no one else will be lining up to volunteer. So, I'll stick with short visits to the hospital, then try to keep everything else as normal as possible. Thank you, everyone.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Read this. Unbelievable. Grrr

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/28/man-calls-suicide-line-police-kill-him.html


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Read this. Unbelievable. Grrr
> 
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/28/man-calls-suicide-line-police-kill-him.html


Unfortunately stories like this are becoming all too believable. What used to be a last resort for people has come to be the first thing they think of, and after that they find a reason for it.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think that after the weekend is over, no one else will be lining up to volunteer. So, I'll stick with short visits to the hospital, then try to keep everything else as normal as possible. Thank you, everyone.


Grandma knows best.

See that people bring him small gifts whenever they bring gifts for the babies. Or you make certain such gifts are available, so he knows he's as important as the tiny ones.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Grandma knows best.
> 
> See that people bring him small gifts whenever they bring gifts for the babies. Or you make certain such gifts are available, so he knows he's as important as the tiny ones.


Absolutely - thanks Purl. We always bring something fun for the established children when we visit to see new babies. I remember how much that meant to our son when his baby sister came along.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I got to change Arya's diaper tonight . And today, my son and dil got to hold Kayla for three hours. Tomorrow, my dil gets to try to nurse Kayla and give her a bath. Her breathing is fine and she doesn't need any additional oxygen. Thomas is still intubated but is improving and both Leo and Arya have developed a little bit of jaundice, so they're under the bilirubin lights. Other than that, they're all doing VERY well, much better than anyone expected.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I got to change Arya's diaper tonight . And today, my son and dil got to hold Kayla for three hours. Tomorrow, my dil gets to try to nurse Kayla and give her a bath. Her breathing is fine and she doesn't need any additional oxygen. Thomas is still intubated but is improving and both Leo and Arya have developed a little bit of jaundice, so they're under the bilirubin lights. Other than that, they're all doing VERY well, much better than anyone expected.


Great update G. Nebs! Keep us posted.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

My dil just sent me this pic of my hand changing Arya's diaper. It shows how tiny she is. My hands arent that large, either.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> My dil just sent me this pic of my hand changing Arya's diaper. It shows how tiny she is. My hands arent that large, either.


Wow - hands on already! It must be such a thrill. How are they all doing? They sure look to be a good size. I imagine they will be kept in the hospital for awhile? How is DIL doing. But mainly -- how are YOU doing? You must be exhausted - Has Max been able to have some Mummy time yet? It is going to be hard on him. Thank heavens he has you and you understand him so well. How did it go with the other Grandmother? 
Thoughts are with you by so many KP members. Take care.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Wow - hands on already! It must be such a thrill. How are they all doing? They sure look to be a good size. I imagine they will be kept in the hospital for awhile? How is DIL doing. But mainly -- how are YOU doing? You must be exhausted - Has Max been able to have some Mummy time yet? It is going to be hard on him. Thank heavens he has you and you understand him so well. How did it go with the other Grandmother?
> Thoughts are with you by so many KP members. Take care.


I can't sleep! Anyway, they're doing very well. No one knows how long they'll be in the NICU. None of them have nursed as of yet. They're fed donor breast milk through a tube, directly into their stomachs because they don't know how to suck yet. They're teaching them to suck by dipping a Q Tip into colustrum, and putting it into their mouths. It's really cute to watch them suck at it, but they tire easily. Dil is going to get to try to nurse Kayla tomorrow. I hope it goes well.

My dil is healing. Her back has been hurting a lot, so its been hard for her to stand at the isolettes. But it was wonderful for her to be able to sit and hold Kayla.

I'm fine. I got to sleep in this morning and got a load of laundry started. I even got some knitting done in between seeing the babies. I haven't seen Max all day, so I don't know how he's doing. When I first saw the other grandma today, she said he wasn't doing well. She took him home to his house around 6:30 pm, last night. She said he was out of control, so she just let him do and have, whatever he wanted. She said it was real bad. Then she let him play in the bathtub for about 45 minutes, after which, he was sleepy. This morning, her son came to pick him up. Max kept saying to her, "cmon, cmon,". He thought she was coming with him. As she was telling him goodbye, he took her face in both hands, and with a frightened look in his face, whispered " cmon". And she let him go. I cried when she told me this. I cannot believe that she let that happen. Nor can I believe that she told me about it. It makes me cry now, just to think about it. He has been at dil's brother's since this morning. Tomorrow, they're bringing him up to the hospital, to me. They all think they're doing me a favor by keeping him. But in truth, it just breaks my heart. I'm going to try and get him back into his routines. I figure we can either set specific times for me to bring him to the hospital, or they can call and I'll come. He's a little OCD, and needs his routines. I hope that things went alright at his aunt and uncle's. They have four children that he loves to play with, but I don't think he's ever been there by himself. I'm pretty sure that by now, no one else will want him. So I'm going to go back to spending part of the days at his house and part of the days at mine. He likes that. Hopefully, we can get him back to where he feels he has some control. He hasn't been as hard for me since the weather has been nice, because he loves to play outside. Please pray for Max! Thanks, Shirley.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Unfortunately stories like this are becoming all too believable. What used to be a last resort for people has come to be the first thing they think of, and after that they find a reason for it.


Unfortunately, I agree however, it's the action of the police involved that's got up my goat. With so many other ways this man could have been disarmed and made safe, they immediately resort to shooting him. He shouldn't have died but once again, he becomes another notch on the bed-post that is the police force.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I can't sleep! Anyway, they're doing very well. No one knows how long they'll be in the NICU. None of them have nursed as of yet. They're fed donor breast milk through a tube, directly into their stomachs because they don't know how to suck yet. They're teaching them to suck by dipping a Q Tip into colustrum, and putting it into their mouths. It's really cute to watch them suck at it, but they tire easily. Dil is going to get to try to nurse Kayla tomorrow. I hope it goes well.
> 
> My dil is healing. Her back has been hurting a lot, so its been hard for her to stand at the isolettes. But it was wonderful for her to be able to sit and hold Kayla.
> 
> I'm fine. I got to sleep in this morning and got a load of laundry started. I even got some knitting done in between seeing the babies. I haven't seen Max all day, so I don't know how he's doing. When I first saw the other grandma today, she said he wasn't doing well. She took him home to his house around 6:30 pm, last night. She said he was out of control, so she just let him do and have, whatever he wanted. She said it was real bad. Then she let him play in the bathtub for about 45 minutes, after which, he was sleepy. This morning, her son came to pick him up. Max kept saying to her, "cmon, cmon,". He thought she was coming with him. As she was telling him goodbye, he took her face in both hands, and with a frightened look in his face, whispered " cmon". And she let him go. I cried when she told me this. I cannot believe that she let that happen. Nor can I believe that she told me about it. It makes me cry now, just to think about it. He has been at dil's brother's since this morning. Tomorrow, they're bringing him up to the hospital, to me. They all think they're doing me a favor by keeping him. But in truth, it just breaks my heart. I'm going to try and get him back into his routines. I figure we can either set specific times for me to bring him to the hospital, or they can call and I'll come. He's a little OCD, and needs his routines. I hope that things went alright at his aunt and uncle's. They have four children that he loves to play with, but I don't think he's ever been there by himself. I'm pretty sure that by now, no one else will want him. So I'm going to go back to spending part of the days at his house and part of the days at mine. He likes that. Hopefully, we can get him back to where he feels he has some control. He hasn't been as hard for me since the weather has been nice, because he loves to play outside. Please pray for Max! Thanks, Shirley.


Go KFN! I'm sure little Max will somehow adapt to the massive changes in his life at the moment. Kids under the most extraordinary circumstances can be incredibly resilient, even with difficult challenges.

All you can do is what you're doing and that you're doing it so well says a lot. Don't forget you have a right to wallow in the wonderfulness of the safe arrival of the babies so embrace it and enjoy!


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I got to change Arya's diaper tonight . And today, my son and dil got to hold Kayla for three hours. Tomorrow, my dil gets to try to nurse Kayla and give her a bath. Her breathing is fine and she doesn't need any additional oxygen. Thomas is still intubated but is improving and both Leo and Arya have developed a little bit of jaundice, so they're under the bilirubin lights. Other than that, they're all doing VERY well, much better than anyone expected.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Yayy, team!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Wow - hands on already! It must be such a thrill. How are they all doing? They sure look to be a good size. I imagine they will be kept in the hospital for awhile? How is DIL doing. But mainly -- how are YOU doing? You must be exhausted - Has Max been able to have some Mummy time yet? It is going to be hard on him. Thank heavens he has you and you understand him so well. How did it go with the other Grandmother?
> Thoughts are with you by so many KP members. Take care.


I wonder if Max has grasped the fact that he now has FOUR siblings? That may take a while to sink in as probably the babies will be released by the hospital at staggered intervals. I'm SO glad that things turned out so well--in fact, I'm a little jealous and would so love to have a new baby of my own. Wish I could talk DH into it...


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Just curious, Nebraska (maybe you've already answered this)--did any turn out to be identical? I remember the doctors thought that was a possibility but couldn't be sure until the birth(s).


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Just curious, Nebraska (maybe you've already answered this)--did any turn out to be identical? I remember the doctors thought that was a possibility but couldn't be sure until the birth(s).


I don't think they've run the test and I don't know if they're going to, or not. Initially, none of the babies looked the same, but as the swelling in their faces has come down, they're starting to look more alike, especially the girls. So, I can't answer your question. Thomas doesn't look like the others. I don't know if that's just because he's so big though. He's so rounded.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't think they've run the test and I don't know if they're going to, or not. Initially, none of the babies looked the same, but as the swelling in their faces has come down, they're starting to look more alike, especially the girls. So, I can't answer your question. Thomas doesn't look like the others. I don't know if that's just because he's so big though. He's so rounded.


They all look rounded--really the healthiest and sweetest-looking crew I've seen in ages. I just can't get over it. You, DIL, and your son did such a fantastic job!


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I can't sleep! Anyway, they're doing very well. No one knows how long they'll be in the NICU. None of them have nursed as of yet. They're fed donor breast milk through a tube, directly into their stomachs because they don't know how to suck yet. They're teaching them to suck by dipping a Q Tip into colustrum, and putting it into their mouths. It's really cute to watch them suck at it, but they tire easily. Dil is going to get to try to nurse Kayla tomorrow. I hope it goes well.
> 
> My dil is healing. Her back has been hurting a lot, so its been hard for her to stand at the isolettes. But it was wonderful for her to be able to sit and hold Kayla.
> 
> I'm fine. I got to sleep in this morning and got a load of laundry started. I even got some knitting done in between seeing the babies. I haven't seen Max all day, so I don't know how he's doing. When I first saw the other grandma today, she said he wasn't doing well. She took him home to his house around 6:30 pm, last night. She said he was out of control, so she just let him do and have, whatever he wanted. She said it was real bad. Then she let him play in the bathtub for about 45 minutes, after which, he was sleepy. This morning, her son came to pick him up. Max kept saying to her, "cmon, cmon,". He thought she was coming with him. As she was telling him goodbye, he took her face in both hands, and with a frightened look in his face, whispered " cmon". And she let him go. I cried when she told me this. I cannot believe that she let that happen. Nor can I believe that she told me about it. It makes me cry now, just to think about it. He has been at dil's brother's since this morning. Tomorrow, they're bringing him up to the hospital, to me. They all think they're doing me a favor by keeping him. But in truth, it just breaks my heart. I'm going to try and get him back into his routines. I figure we can either set specific times for me to bring him to the hospital, or they can call and I'll come. He's a little OCD, and needs his routines. I hope that things went alright at his aunt and uncle's. They have four children that he loves to play with, but I don't think he's ever been there by himself. I'm pretty sure that by now, no one else will want him. So I'm going to go back to spending part of the days at his house and part of the days at mine. He likes that. Hopefully, we can get him back to where he feels he has some control. He hasn't been as hard for me since the weather has been nice, because he loves to play outside. Please pray for Max! Thanks, Shirley.


Knitter from Nebraskja
is Max getting any professional help? I sure hope so. He needs it desperately.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraskja
> is Max getting any professional help? I sure hope so. He needs it desperately.


No he isn't. And I've been told by my dil, to not bring it up again. She does not want him labeled. They want to put him into preschool in the fall (he will be four next month). I think that at that time, she will have to face the fact that something's wrong. I don't think he will last long in a regular preschool. I've got him back with me today. We've just been playing with buttons and dinosaurs and swinging. I told his parents that he'd had too much waiting room time and they should call me and I'll bring him up. So they did, and I'm taking him up at 7 pm. Things are going smoothly for now.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No he isn't. And I've been told by my dil, to not bring it up again. She does not want him labeled. They want to put him into preschool in the fall (he will be four next month). I think that at that time, she will have to face the fact that something's wrong. I don't think he will last long in a regular preschool. I've got him back with me today. We've just been playing with buttons and dinosaurs and swinging. I told his parents that he'd had too much waiting room time and they should call me and I'll bring him up. So they did, and I'm taking him up at 7 pm. Things are going smoothly for now.


The parents will certainly get the wake up call when he is in school. For now I would let the school deal with it in the fall as clearly the parents are too consumed now.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> The parents will certainly get the wake up call when he is in school. For now I would let the school deal with it in the fall as clearly the parents are too consumed now.


 :thumbup:


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> No he isn't. And I've been told by my dil, to not bring it up again. She does not want him labeled. They want to put him into preschool in the fall (he will be four next month). I think that at that time, she will have to face the fact that something's wrong. I don't think he will last long in a regular preschool. I've got him back with me today. We've just been playing with buttons and dinosaurs and swinging. I told his parents that he'd had too much waiting room time and they should call me and I'll bring him up. So they did, and I'm taking him up at 7 pm. Things are going smoothly for now.


May want to check his diet, too. Sometimes a particular food can be too stimulating. Remember the dyes in the older brands of so called fruit drinks. Hope it is just a simple fix like that.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Unfortunately, I agree however, it's the action of the police involved that's got up my goat. With so many other ways this man could have been disarmed and made safe, they immediately resort to shooting him. He shouldn't have died but once again, he becomes another notch on the bed-post that is the police force.


It's sad that the ones who are supposed to protect us are the ones who choose instead to destroy some of us.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It's sad that the ones who are supposed to protect us are the ones who choose instead to destroy some of us.


It is sad. And it's frightening because I don't think anyone could predict what the outcome would be if/when they have an encounter with police anymore.

My outrage increases:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/fatal-police-shootings-in-2015-approaching-400-nationwide/2015/05/30/d322256a-058e-11e5-a428-c984eb077d4e_story.html?hpid=z1


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I have no problem with trying to meet the needs of children who might need a slower dosage over a longer period of time. I have no recollection of you ever saying you accept any type of vaccine. You have made it clear that you don't want vaccines ever - but then you say your grand children were vaccinated. You sometimes state facts that as far as we can see to you are written in stone. Then suddenly a post that is something we can willingly investigate and possibly (in this case Probably) agree to. As long as vaccines are given I have absolutely no problem with that. After all the arguments you and I have had about vaccines, suddenly you change your mind about vaccines that are slower and possibly some of the ingredients reduced that worry some.
> 
> YOu have never given a hint, that I have read, that you accept that slower vaccines could be given to some children. I would fight for that if there is a way that that could be accomplished.
> :shock: :shock: :shock: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Personally, I would rather not live amidst people who increasingly haven't gotten the usual list of childhood vaccines and, as adults, haven't kept up with their flu and pneumonia vaccinations. This isn't a matter of personal decision except in a very few cases. This is a matter of public health.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Duplicate...


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Personally, I would rather not live amidst people who increasingly haven't gotten the usual list of childhood vaccines and, as adults, haven't kept up with their flu and pneumonia vaccinations. This isn't a matter of personal decision except in a very few cases. This is a matter of public health.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Personally, I would rather not live amidst people who increasingly haven't gotten the usual list of childhood vaccines and, as adults, haven't kept up with their flu and pneumonia vaccinations. This isn't a matter of personal decision except in a very few cases. This is a matter of public health.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Personally, I would rather not live amidst people who increasingly haven't gotten the usual list of childhood vaccines and, as adults, haven't kept up with their flu and pneumonia vaccinations. This isn't a matter of personal decision except in a very few cases. This is a matter of public health.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Personally, I would rather not live amidst people who increasingly haven't gotten the usual list of childhood vaccines and, as adults, haven't kept up with their flu and pneumonia vaccinations. This isn't a matter of personal decision except in a very few cases. This is a matter of public health.


Well then, considering that childhood vaccines only offer temporary immunity at best, you shouldn't live near anyone who hasn't actually had the disease. There have been many outbreaks among vaccinated people, particularly in colleges and universities. The false immunity wears off. Have YOU had your pertussis vaccine? You need one every ten years. Pertussis has been going around, especially among those who HAVE been vaccinated. Maybe you wouldn't want to be around yourself.

PS: I HAVE had my pertussis vaccine, four years ago. I am not against the idea of vaccination. I AM against injecting KNOWN neurotoxins into infants and children!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I don't know if anyone else will find this interesting. But I did.

"Catholic Group Exposes Red Influence in the Vatican".

http://www.aim.org/aim-column/catholic-group-exposes-red-influence-in-the-vatican/?utm_source=AIM+-+Daily+Email&utm_campaign=email052715&utm_medium=email

IMO, capitalism has been corrupted by cronyism. But, is the answer to instill worldwide communism, controlled by a worldwide government? This is no longer a conspiracy theory. It is being voiced in high places. The pope might say nice things about social justice, but does anyone really know what he means by " social justice"? We all know that in communism, they take from the poor and not the rich. How is that, social justice?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't know if anyone else will find this interesting. But I did.
> 
> "Catholic Group Exposes Red Influence in the Vatican".
> 
> ...


I don't remember anything about taking from the poor and not the rich in Communism. They were totally against the rich and believed in the rule of the proletariat. That would translate to redistributing the wealth and doing away with the upper class.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I don't remember anything about taking from the poor and not the rich in Communism. They were totally against the rich and believed in the rule of the proletariat. That would translate to redistributing the wealth and doing away with the upper class.


Theoretically speaking, maybe. But the reality is the wealthy live like kings and the rest have to stand in line to buy toilet paper. And the proletariat will never rule anything. True communism has never existed in the real world.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Theoretically speaking, maybe. But the reality is the wealthy live like kings and the rest have to stand in line to buy toilet paper. And the proletariat will never rule anything. True communism has never existed in the real world.


It certainly has, though not as a national policy. The early kibbutzim in Israel were an excellent example of how communism was meant to work, and they were very successful.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't know if anyone else will find this interesting. But I did.
> 
> "Catholic Group Exposes Red Influence in the Vatican".
> 
> ...


...whereas under capitalism, they take from the poor and not the rich. Social justice, anybody?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> It certainly has, though not as a national policy. The early kibbutzim in Israel were an excellent example of how communism was meant to work, and they were very successful.


You say, "the early kibbutzim". Do they no longer exist? If not, why? I've heard the term " kibbutz" and kind of understood what it meant, but I know nothing else about it. I'd like to know more.

I think that communism as defined, sounds wonderful, the way things are meant to be. BUT, as long as people exist who seek to control others, it cannot exist. Someone will always step forward to control. The communism that exists in reality, is an extreme form of control.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> ...whereas under capitalism, they take from the poor and not the rich. Social justice, anybody?


Compared to most of the world, YOU are the rich. It is YOU and I who will be taken from. The rich are protected in every society. If the pope really cared about social justice, he would start with the vatican. He cares about control.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Compared to most of the world, YOU are the rich. It is YOU and I who will be taken from. The rich are protected in every society. If the pope really cared about social justice, he would start with the vatican. He cares about control.


Speaking of the Pope and the Catholic Church, a Royal Commission (formal enquiry) on child abuse by priests in the Catholic Church is being conducted here in Australia. Over the past two weeks, the enquiry was held in the city of Ballarat in my home state. The evidence given by victims of the abuse was truly shocking. So shocking it's hardly comprehensible. Evidence was given by an imprisoned priest considered to be the worst paedophile priest in Australia. His evidence and that of the victims gave rise to questions about the conduct of the highest level priest in Australia, Cardinal George Pell. It was said that Pell tried to bribe one of the victims of this paedophile priest by asking him what it would take for him to remain silent. Pell did nothing to protect the victims or to out the offending priests for years. Pell also demonstrably gave himself away in a lie. He was also lambasted by a commissioner of the Pope on 60 Minutes last night.

My point is, the Catholic Church needs to throw all of their efforts and money into ridding itself of this scourge after decades of ignoring it.

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/06/01/01/28/popes-top-advisor-says-cardinal-pell-should-step-down

http://www.news.com.au/national/courts-law/vile-paedophile-gerald-ridsdale-will-give-evidence-at-royal-commission-today/story-fns0kb3z-1227370909914


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Speaking of the Pope and the Catholic Church, a Royal Commission (formal enquiry) on child abuse by priests in the Catholic Church is being conducted here in Australia. Over the past two weeks, the enquiry was held in the city of Ballarat in my home state. The evidence given by victims of the abuse was truly shocking. So shocking it's hardly comprehensible. Evidence was given by an imprisoned priest considered to be the worst paedophile priest in Australia. His evidence and that of the victims gave rise to questions about the conduct of the highest level priest in Australia, Cardinal George Pell. It was said that Pell tried to bribe one of the victims of this paedophile priest by asking him what it would take for him to remain silent. Pell did nothing to protect the victims or to out the offending priests for years. Pell also demonstrably gave himself away in a lie. He was also lambasted by a commissioner of the Pope on 60 Minutes last night.
> 
> My point is, the Catholic Church needs to throw all of their efforts and money into ridding itself of this scourge after decades of ignoring it.
> 
> ...


Warning:In this instance, when I speak of the catholic church, I am referring to the institution, not the individuals. IMO, the catholic church is filled with putrid rot! The institution has given itself over to satan. Their hierarchy is filled with self- worshipping evil men, who do not know GOD. That the church would stand by as these evil men murder the spirit and soul of these children, makes them equally evil. This institution is about greed and power. They amass riches on earth, but almost certainly, none in heaven. The rot starts at the head! People should be very careful listening to the words of these evil men. They like to use pretty words. They deceive many. The truth lies in what they do, and what they allow to be done, to the weakest of us. That even ONE of them would protect a pedophile to save the church, shows you where they lie. They are evil through and through!

I pray that the the innocent people who support this putrid institution, come to see that they are supporting evil. By their numbers and with their money, they give this putrid rot, power. That power needs to end. All power and glory should go to GOD, not satan.

I also believe that the catholic church is not the only church, who has succumbed to evil. Someday, these mighty men will stand before GOD, and he will say, I did not know you.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You say, "the early kibbutzim". Do they no longer exist? If not, why? I've heard the term " kibbutz" and kind of understood what it meant, but I know nothing else about it. I'd like to know more.
> 
> I think that communism as defined, sounds wonderful, the way things are meant to be. BUT, as long as people exist who seek to control others, it cannot exist. Someone will always step forward to control. The communism that exists in reality, is an extreme form of control.


When Israel was largely agricultural, the kibbutz was a good way of working the land. There are still a few kibbutzim, but mostly now they act as vacation places for seniors who don't care about 5-star amenities. Also as wedding venues. The country is more industrial now, and what engineer or chemist wants to get her hands dirty?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Compared to most of the world, YOU are the rich. It is YOU and I who will be taken from. The rich are protected in every society. If the pope really cared about social justice, he would start with the vatican. He cares about control.


Possibly, maybe even probably.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Warning:In this instance, when I speak of the catholic church, I am referring to the institution, not the individuals. IMO, the catholic church is filled with putrid rot! The institution has given itself over to satan. Their hierarchy is filled with self- worshipping evil men, who do not know GOD. That the church would stand by as these evil men murder the spirit and soul of these children, makes them equally evil. This institution is about greed and power. They amass riches on earth, but almost certainly, none in heaven. The rot starts at the head! People should be very careful listening to the words of these evil men. They like to use pretty words. They deceive many. The truth lies in what they do, and what they allow to be done, to the weakest of us. That even ONE of them would protect a pedophile to save the church, shows you where they lie. They are evil through and through!
> 
> I pray that the the innocent people who support this putrid institution, come to see that they are supporting evil. By their numbers and with their money, they give this putrid rot, power. That power needs to end. All power and glory should go to GOD, not satan.
> 
> I also believe that the catholic church is not the only church, who has succumbed to evil. Someday, these mighty men will stand before GOD, and he will say, I did not know you.


Oh, c'mon, Nebraska, don't be shy. Tell us how you _really_ feel about the RC Church.

The Catholic Church has some horrible moments in its history, but it's done a lot of good, as well. Unfortunately, it chooses its leaders the way any patriarchal organization does, and that's a serious problem in itself.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Oh, c'mon, Nebraska, don't be shy. Tell us how you _really_ feel about the RC Church.
> 
> The Catholic Church has some horrible moments in its history, but it's done a lot of good, as well. Unfortunately, it chooses its leaders the way any patriarchal organization does, and that's a serious problem in itself.


Sorry i was so vague. I didnt want to offend anyone.

Some? Its history is riddled with horrible moments. And IMO, it's the individual catholics who have done good. I cant think of what the institution has done.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Sorry i was so vague. I didnt want to offend anyone.
> 
> Some? Its history is riddled with horrible moments. And IMO, it's the individual catholics who have done good. I cant think of what the institution has done.


That depends on how you perceive the collective orders of nuns. As far as I know, there's only one blot on their record: the virtual imprisonment of pregnant girls, treating them as slave labor and removing their infants from them.

Come to think of it, if they could do that, they could do anything.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Sorry i was so vague. I didnt want to offend anyone.
> 
> Some? Its history is riddled with horrible moments. And IMO, it's the individual catholics who have done good. I cant think of what the institution has done.


Apart from an overemphasis on Catholic doctrine it gave me an excellent education that has engendered a love of learning. I was taught to think and to question, and I did question what the nuns told me. I was also taught elocution, a love of classical music, a thirst for knowledge, a love of history, grooming and craft skills as part of my primary school education.

The Catholic church opened schools in many of the world's poorer nations in order to bring education to the children.

If you want an example of 'something good done by the Catholic Church' then please look no further than Mother Theresa.

In the middle ages the Catholic Church was well to the forefront with scientific research. Think Mendel and his experiments with peas. You may not be familiar with Mendel. He was an Augustinian monk and botanist whose experiments in breeding garden peas led to his eventual recognition as founder of the science of genetics (1822-1884)


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> That depends on how you perceive the collective orders of nuns. As far as I know, there's only one blot on their record: the virtual imprisonment of pregnant girls, treating them as slave labor and removing their infants from them.
> 
> Come to think of it, if they could do that, they could do anything.


I try really hard not to judge individuals based upon the groups they are part of. But from my teens through my adult years, I've known several women who attended catholic schools, six of whom I considered "best friends". All of them attended catholic schools and all of them related the same tales of cruel nuns, nuns who hit them when they didn't do well and nuns who squashed their spirits by telling them they'd go to hell. They all hated catholic schools. And I've never heard of a kind nun. While some might think they've done good, I think they've done more harm than good.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

As far as I can see almost every Christian sect has had bad moments in their history, and rotten individuals who care for nothing but money or power can be found in most of them, too.

From what I have heard/seen of Pope Francis, he's not one of them. And he's working to reform the Vatican. It will take time. Even an atheist like myself can see that he's a good man who sincerely tries to live up to his ideals.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Apart from an overemphasis on Catholic doctrine it gave me an excellent education that has engendered a love of learning. I was taught to think and to question, and I did question what the nuns told me. I was also taught elocution, a love of classical music, a thirst for knowledge, a love of history, grooming and craft skills as part of my primary school education.
> 
> The Catholic church opened schools in many of the world's poorer nations in order to bring education to the children.
> 
> ...


You were lucky! You're story doesn't match that of my friends. Also, I see the works of Mother Theresa and others like her, as the works of individuals, not the church itself. Otherwise, there'd be millions more like her. I'm not disputing that there are many, many really good catholic people. I just don't think that the institution is more interested in others than themselves.

Mendel, and his work with hybridization and genealogy is a whole other can of peas (I know, I'm sorry). While hybridization seemed like a wonderful thing, look at where its gone. Mendel started it all by cross breeding two kinds of peas. Now, scientists are inserting pig genes into oranges and cross breeding humans with animals. Who knows where it will end? Already we've plants with sterile seeds and monsters being grown in laboratories. Just because scientists CAN do something, doesn't mean that they should. All that aside, I don't think that the catholic church can take credit for Mendel's work, just because he was a priest.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> As far as I can see almost every Christian sect has had bad moments in their history, and rotten individuals who care for nothing but money or power can be found in most of them, too.
> 
> From what I have heard/seen of Pope Francis, he's not one of them. And he's working to reform the Vatican. It will take time. Even an atheist like myself can see that he's a good man who sincerely tries to live up to his ideals.


I agree with your first statement but I think perhaps, the pope is a wolf in sheep's clothing. His idea of social justice is communism. But I'm sure he doesn't support that idea for himself and the hierarchy of the church. They're special. It's the rest of us who should do all of the work and divide up the crumbs, to make everything fair. I'll believe his words on the day he gives the church's riches to the poor, and he gets a job like everyone else. Until then, his words are just words.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Just out of curiosity, did anyone read the article? It was very interesting and people should be aware of what's going on behind the scenes.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You were lucky! You're story doesn't match that of my friends. Also, I see the works of Mother Theresa and others like her, as the works of individuals, not the church itself. Otherwise, there'd be millions more like her. I'm not disputing that there are many, many really good catholic people. I just don't think that the institution is more interested in others than themselves.
> 
> Mendel, and his work with hybridization and genealogy is a whole other can of peas (I know, I'm sorry). While hybridization seemed like a wonderful thing, look at where its gone. Mendel started it all by cross breeding two kinds of peas. Now, scientists are inserting pig genes into oranges and cross breeding humans with animals. Who knows where it will end? Already we've plants with sterile seeds and monsters being grown in laboratories. Just because scientists CAN do something, doesn't mean that they should. All that aside, I don't think that the catholic church can take credit for Mendel's work, just because he was a priest.


I agree with most of what you say, Eve, but I must take exception when it comes to Mother Teresa. She was NOT the saintly woman her publicists portray. She was a shill for the Vatican and they glommed onto her purported good works as a marketing tool. She was a great believer in the sanctity of suffering and some of the practices in her clinics were barbaric. Very, very little of the millions people gave to the church went to the poor and suffering of Calcutta or anyplace else. It went to build convents - all with her name on them. Read the following for a different view of Mother Teresa. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2003/10/mommie_dearest.html

As for education, I believe I have mentioned before that my grandson graduated from Brophy Preparatory Academy in Phoenix, which is one of the best prep schools in the Southwest. It is run by Franciscans. The curriculum is rigorous and the values taught to the young men who go there are exemplary. They are truly taught that their highest calling is service to their fellow man. I was leery when my daughter and SIL first sent him and sat him down and talked to him very bluntly about sexual abuse, telling him to come to me immediately if anyone even LOOKED at him crossways. His outstanding education enabled him to enter Marquette University as a freshman with 63 credit hours going in. I can't imagine him getting a better education anywhere.

My granddaughter attends Xavier Prep - the all-girls' counterpart to Brophy. The academic standards there are just as stringent and she is getting the kind of education that will allow her to attend Columbia University on scholarship. However, the nuns have made getting through to graduation an endurance test. They are HORRIBLE. She definitely has been told that questioning their authority will send her directly to hell. The bitches!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Just out of curiosity, did anyone read the article? It was very interesting and people should be aware of what's going on behind the scenes.


Didn't read the article, but many of us are fully aware of the scandalous behavior of the catholic church and pedophile priests. Finding out about how priests are protected was the initial step in my becoming atheist. The more I learned, the more I questioned not only the church but the whole idea of god and religion.

To be clear, my questioning went well beyond the ills of organized religion and was a long, difficult process so I have not rejected religion based on the evil done by men in the name of god.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I try really hard not to judge individuals based upon the groups they are part of. But from my teens through my adult years, I've known several women who attended catholic schools, six of whom I considered "best friends". All of them attended catholic schools and all of them related the same tales of cruel nuns, nuns who hit them when they didn't do well and nuns who squashed their spirits by telling them they'd go to hell. They all hated catholic schools. And I've never heard of a kind nun. While some might think they've done good, I think they've done more harm than good.


I can remember many kind nuns. In all of my years in convent schools I only had one really bad tempered and nasty nun. It was only years later that I came to understand why she was so angry all the time; it was the students she was teaching. Some of them were downright dumb, and now nearly 60 years since I left that school and meeting some of them again I realise just how dumb they were, and how dumb they still are. Yes, they were the daughters of the women who attended mass on a daily basis, who ran the tuckshop at the school, organised the school fete and so forth. If I wanted to be unkind I would label these mothers as 'camp followers'. I was talking to another woman just recently and she was taught by this nun at another convent some years after the nun taught me. It was one of Perth's leading girls' schools and therefore attracted a better class of student. The fees were much, much higher than the local convent I attended. This woman said the nun would relate stories to the girls on just how dumb and stupid some of those Midland girls were. The nun said it was like trying to extract teeth from a rocking horse trying to get some of the Midland kids to think. Those Midland girls have, to my mind, never progressed beyond their teenage years. They all married good catholic boys who attended the local Christian Brothers School, had the required number of children who also attended the local convent, and now grandchildren who are doing the same. These girls have never travelled anywhere and have never lived anywhere but in Midland. They built their first house in the suburb, extended as the family grew and are now living in retirement units in the suburb. Not one of them attended University or Technical School. They still meet every week to play cards and have lunch or a meal out, but usually at Dome never at a really first class restaurant.

On the other hand I still remember Sister Mary Carmel, who taught me from 1951 - 1953. She inspired me. One of her favourite sayings was "Now remember girls, you are Convent girls; you can achieve anything. Venture forward and achieve." Some 20 years ago I met another nun who taught me. She was then in her 90s and she was still young at heart and still had a wicked sense of humour. It was at a special celebration of her long life as a nun. One of the local vignerons had brought along some of the port he produced and he had made special labels for the wine. He had called it 'Sister Anthony's Wine' in her honour. He had given her a bottle to take back to the nunnery with her. She was sitting next to me and said "go and get me another bottle of that wine, I will keep it in my bedside cabinet and have a wee drink every night when I go to bed. No, better still, make it two bottles, it will last longer then."

My sister worked at the nursing home and hospice not far from where she lived, it was run by the Sisters of Mercy. Mum started going down to arrange the flowers and help out. She became very firm friends with the nuns and some of those nuns were truly beautiful women with kind and gentle natures.

Yes, some people have had negative experiences with nuns but a lot of people have also had very negative experiences with teachers in State, or non religious schools. My ex had very vivid memories of some very sadistic male teachers and he attended State Schools, not Convents. My youngest son also has very strong memories of some very nasty teachers at State Schools. To be honest, I sometimes think that once the ball is rolling with 'lets tell stories about the horrid nuns we had' then a lot of people jump on board with their own horror stories, and some of them are more than a tad exaggerated.

I am sure that others will also have fond memories of their favourite nun or nuns. I am sitting here smiling as I remember so many, many fine nuns. Your friends remember nuns who were 'cruel nuns, nuns who hit them when they didn't do well and nuns who squashed their spirits by telling them they'd go to hell'. But there were also teachers at secular schools who did the same thing. I also gather that you yourself did not attend a convent so can only go on the hearsay of others and not base your opinion on nuns on your own personal experiences. Not all nuns were vicious, nasty creatures and many did inspire their pupils to strive and achieve.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't know if anyone else will find this interesting. But I did.
> 
> "Catholic Group Exposes Red Influence in the Vatican".
> 
> ...


I read the article and I found it to be poppycock. Are you an expert on Catholicism or even a Catholic? I think that Pope Francis is a breath of fresh air in the church and as such I pray he will not be assassinated as many of his predecessors have been for not protecting the status quo. I was raised in the Church and as a member know there are a multitude of changes that need to be made to improve it and one of the least of my worries is if this Pope leans towards Communism or Socialism. The way things are going now I don't believe the church will be able to exist until and unless it does a lot of soul searching and internal house cleaning. Bringing people of good will, be they Capitalist, Communist etc. together for the betterment of mankind and the planet is exactly what Francis should be doing.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

JustBeachy said:


> Omaha, for a while, pretty much had no hospitals other than 'Pest houses', if it weren't for the Sisters of Mercy.
> 
> Many, maybe MOST areas gained access to healthcare because of the Catholic church and particularly Orders of Nuns.
> 
> ...


Thank you for pointing out the good they've done with their hospitals. The Crusades and the Inquisition can be criticized regardless of when one's faith came into being, but the Church has had its good moments as well. I don't see how anyone can knock a 2,000-year-old institution on the basis of last week's news.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I read the article and I found it to be poppycock. Are you an expert on Catholicism or even a Catholic? I think that Pope Francis is a breath of fresh air in the church and as such I pray he will not be assassinated as many of his predecessors have been for not protecting the status quo. I was raised in the Church and as a member know there are a multitude of changes that need to be made to improve it and one of the least of my worries is if this Pope leans towards Communism or Socialism. The way things are going now I don't believe the church will be able to exist until and unless it does a lot of soul searching and internal house cleaning. Bringing people of good will, be they Capitalist, Communist etc. together for the betterment of mankind and the planet is exactly what Francis should be doing.


Sounds right to me.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Sorry i was so vague. I didnt want to offend anyone.
> 
> Some? Its history is riddled with horrible moments. And IMO, it's the individual catholics who have done good. I cant think of what the institution has done.


How on earth do you believe that what you said was not offensive? You do not tolerate other's criticism well and yet you repeatedly say the most offensive things to the rest of the women on this thread. Fortunately, for you they forgive you over and over again. I am not that magnanimous. I was raised in the Catholic Church and no longer am a regular practicing member because of some of the things that have happened in the church that I cannot accept. The Catholic Church is still my family and taught me right from wrong and how to live a good life. It also taught me that I am here to serve others and do good whenever I can. Jesus does not enable me to go to Heaven. I will go to Heaven based on how I lead my life. Jesus was a man who lived a life one could look to as an example on how a decent person conducts himself and his interactions with others. When you say the awful things you posted about the church on this thread you insulted me personally and I think you have a lot of nerve. I wouldn't criticize your family and I do not appreciate you criticizing mine. I am very aware of all of the shortcomings of the church and as a member I have a right to criticize just like I would criticize a member of my family if they did something wrong and I would try to help them and hopefully fix what needs fixing. I don't see you as a liberal in any sense of the word and I think you are accepted here because we are liberals and much more tolerant people than the right where you seem to live. I have read many of your posts that I thought were way out in left field but kindly just passed on by them without comment. I guess I will have to consider the source and leave it at that.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I can remember many kind nuns. In all of my years in convent schools I only had one really bad tempered and nasty nun.
> On the other hand I still remember Sister Mary Carmel, who taught me from 1951 - 1953. She inspired me. One of her favourite sayings was "Now remember girls, you are Convent girls; you can achieve anything. Venture forward and achieve." Some 20 years ago I met another nun who taught me. She was then in her 90s and she was still young at heart and still had a wicked sense of humour. It was at a special celebration of her long life as a nun. One of the local vignerons had brought along some of the port he produced and he had made special labels for the wine. He had called it 'Sister Anthony's Wine' in her honour. He had given her a bottle to take back to the nunnery with her. She was sitting next to me and said "go and get me another bottle of that wine, I will keep it in my bedside cabinet and have a wee drink every night when I go to bed. No, better still, make it two bottles, it will last longer then."
> 
> I am sure that others will also have fond memories of their favourite nun or nuns. I am sitting here smiling as I remember so many, many fine nuns. Your friends remember nuns who were 'cruel nuns, nuns who hit them when they didn't do well and nuns who squashed their spirits by telling them they'd go to hell'. But there were also teachers at secular schools who did the same thing. I also gather that you yourself did not attend a convent so can only go on the hearsay of others and not base your opinion on nuns on your own personal experiences. Not all nuns were vicious, nasty creatures and many did inspire their pupils to strive and achieve.


I am so glad you posted this-- once again, you can't put all Nuns, or all Priests in the same box. There are good priests, and some very poor priests, just as there are some great Pastors and and very poor pastors, Some wonderful caring nuns and some not nice nuns. There are good and bad people everywhere.

I feel so strongly about that. I have met people who were, and some who are hypocrites as far as their religion is concerned. Tney put on a great show but don't live it - ask me how I know. I grew up in that type of 
religious home. Yet there are others who are kind, strong, 
absolutely wonderfu Christians.However The Duggers are examples in my opinion, of the hypocracy of some religious people. They talk one thing but don't meet their own requirements for their religion. Josh was a leader in the Anti Gay marriage attacks, and travelled all over preaching that Gays are evil and that Gay marriage is a sin. I wonder how he could do that and still believe in the things he fights for.

Mike Huckabee is another -- he spoke against two young girls who liked a singer (who by the way is the most popular singer in the world right now - and said they were poorly brought up by their Parents who have been nothing but great parents in a difficult situation and the girls have been threatened insulted and alot of other nasty things).

At the same time he defends a young man who sexually abused his sisters and another that we know of, and whose Parents have so many negative things to say about those who abuse children and gay marriage and other very judgmental things. Also Josh himself judges and leads an attack and insults those gays who only want to be treated like other citizens. Yet he has abused his sisters? hypocricy of the worst sort.

Hypocricy-- saying one thing, attacking people who are different but keeping secrets that are worse than any thing the people they are attacking have done.

The one thing that I find hardest to deal with is those who
accuse people when they have no proof of any wrong doing. 
It is possible in some cases that it is true. It is also possible in many cases that it isn't true.

I am not Catholic, but I think this Pope is the best thing that has happened and I think he will try to improve a lot of the
things that have been covered up over the years. I believe it will be hard as the Vatican activities and ways of dealing with things are written in stone. I do think that he will try. I also might be incorrect but I believe he is sincere. I have not read or heard anything negative about him. I also know that there are people with agendas and truth doesn't really matter. He also does have the Catholic Church hierarchy to deal with. Some have been around for many years so it will be something to watch.

I wish that flat statements be ended with - "These are my opinions"- Or "I think". especially if it is negative. I have done that myself and am sorry I did. I am not going to do it any more. In the case of the Duggars it is the truth and has been admitted.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Just excerpted the following
> 
> I am very aware of all of the shortcomings of the church and as a member I have a right to criticize just like I would criticize a member of my family if they did something wrong and I would try to help them and hopefully fix what needs fixing.


That is such a healthy attitude that it should be taken to heart as a way to conduct one's life.

If we are honest with ourselves, we will acknowledge that the way we were raised shapes us. And most of us who were raised within a particular faith community will, as we mature and become more critical in our thinking, see factors that could be improved upon to reinforce the positive aspects of our faith. Equally, we will endeavor to remove behaviors or ideologies that we consider negative or harmful.

I have the most superficial understanding of what it is to be a Catholic. But I am grateful that there was the wisdom within the Church to abolish the Inquisition, which was a scourge upon my ancestral co-religionists. I have seen leaders like Pope John XXIII and Pope Francis who have shown humanity and humility in their dealings with the world and take heart as well.

And equally I see aspects within my own faith that dishearten me. There is movement to the right that distorts, in my mind, what the core of belief has been for centuries. There is also movement to the left that dissipates the substance that defines the faith. But although I do not have the power to effect change I do have the power to live my life in a manner that I believe is true to my lineage and perhaps by example influence some people to think more deeply and not scatter off in odd directions.

There are teachings in my own faith that I question and can only see as parables. There are what I perceive are teachings in other religions that, as an outsider, are as preposterous to me as some of the teachings within mine must appear to others.

As long as none of us try to shove our beliefs or our decisions that religious beliefs are absurd down one anothers throats we should be fine together. None of us know any of the others of us well enough long enough to understand what has led us to have strong beliefs.

I thank you for describing the influences on your life, and some of our other friends for also helping me, for one, understand where they are coming from. I think most of us are reaching for the same stars but coming from different places with different reaches and grips to grasp them.

This has been a more enlightening evening than many for me.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Oh, c'mon, Nebraska, don't be shy. Tell us how you _really_ feel about the RC Church.
> 
> The Catholic Church has some horrible moments in its history, but it's done a lot of good, as well. Unfortunately, it chooses its leaders the way any patriarchal organization does, and that's a serious problem in itself.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Hello from flooded Texas! Fortunately, I'm in Dallas so we haven't had as many issues as other areas but gee it's wet here! Haven't been able to do any gardening because you step in the yard and it's squishy! Even had a baby snake somehow show up in the guest bathroom. How lucky am I that hubs found it because I would have run to my car and taken off to the nearest bar. 

Speaking of hubs, he drove to Pennsylvania to pick up the newest addition to our family of German Wire Hairs. Miss River should be home on Thursday. I have been babysitting Beaudreax (aka Boo) and Sydney. 

Congratulations Nebs on the new grandbabies. My nephew and his wife had a baby boy in May. He is a big guy but so was his father.

Well, long day at work and thought I would stop by to say hello to you guys. Talk with you all later!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I read the article and I found it to be poppycock. Are you an expert on Catholicism or even a Catholic? I think that Pope Francis is a breath of fresh air in the church and as such I pray he will not be assassinated as many of his predecessors have been for not protecting the status quo. I was raised in the Church and as a member know there are a multitude of changes that need to be made to improve it and one of the least of my worries is if this Pope leans towards Communism or Socialism. The way things are going now I don't believe the church will be able to exist until and unless it does a lot of soul searching and internal house cleaning. Bringing people of good will, be they Capitalist, Communist etc. together for the betterment of mankind and the planet is exactly what Francis should be doing.


I agree with you Cheeky. I believe he will do everything he can to change things for the better. That is my opinion and I hope that I am correct. I have read all the links tonight and 
I find it hard to agree with much of it. I certainly don't believe that all of them are the absolute truth. I think that they are the opinions of the people who wrote them,(which doesn't make them wrong as I am not familiar with the writers.

I just wonder why it is so hard to know what we are reading is the truth. I am not inclined to believe a lot of political links as usually the people who write them are on one side or the other.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

GWPlver said:


> Hello from flooded Texas! Fortunately, I'm in Dallas so we haven't had as many issues as other areas but gee it's wet here! Haven't been able to do any gardening because you step in the yard and it's squishy! Even had a baby snake somehow show up in the guest bathroom. How lucky am I that hubs found it because I would have run to my car and taken off to the nearest bar.
> 
> Speaking of hubs, he drove to Pennsylvania to pick up the newest addition to our family of German Wire Hairs. Miss River should be home on Thursday. I have been babysitting Beaudreax (aka Boo) and Sydney.
> 
> ...


Howdy Cowboy Panda,

I forget you are from Texas. Glad to hear all your good news. I like snakes so I would put them in the good category, too. Keep your rain boots handy and enjoy all the new additions to your family.


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

SQM said:


> Howdy Cowboy Panda,
> 
> I forget you are from Texas. Glad to hear all your good news. I like snakes so I would put them in the good category, too. Keep your rain boots handy and enjoy all the new additions to your family.


Hey Miss SQM:

We had sun today - all day long!!! The month of May could well be the wettest in Texas history! Usually we see rain in April and less in May but not this year. My cousin from Washington D.C. visited last weekend and stayed in an area that experienced a small tornado. I think I will send her a T-shirt that reads "I survived a Texas tornado!".


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


I agree with MAID however, so many parents are buying into witholding the vaccine from their children, that IF the only way they will allow a vaccination of their child is if it is a spread out vaccine which seems to be talked about now.

I believe l00% in a full vaccination as suggested by the specialists and doctors. However in many cases it isn't happening so if a slower vaccination will do the job and is allowed, at least it is better than no vaccination.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> Hey Miss SQM:
> 
> We had sun today - all day long!!! The month of May could well be the wettest in Texas history! Usually we see rain in April and less in May but not this year. My cousin from Washington D.C. visited last weekend and stayed in an area that experienced a small tornado. I think I will send her a T-shirt that reads "I survived a Texas tornado!".


I hope that you haven't had any problems with the floods. It sounds absolutely horrible. We lived through a terrible flood 2 years ago when I lived in Calgary and it is amazing how the people pulling together helped sort it out quickly. It cost millions of dollars and was only in one large city.However, it sounds as if the Texas flood is over a much larger area and is really causing problems. I hope you are doing okay and that Texas is recovering.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

JustBeachy said:


> Omaha, for a while, pretty much had no hospitals other than 'Pest houses', if it weren't for the Sisters of Mercy.
> 
> Many, maybe MOST areas gained access to healthcare because of the Catholic church and particularly Orders of Nuns.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. The Catholic Church has always been and will always be a huge target for criticism. Much of it deserved and much attacks from those who hate it for a variety of reason founded and unfounded. I lived with the Sisters of Carondelet when I was a pregnant teenager and lived with them until the birth of my son. My parents paid for my care but no girl was turned away if they did not have money. All girls had to go to school on site and were taught by the nuns. All were treated with great kindness and love. No one was ever mistreated. We also had a clinic on site where OBGYN doctor would come in weekly for the girl's checkups. All babies were born in the Catholic hospital in the city. The nuns were some of the kindest most wonderful women I have ever known. All were either teachers, nurses or social workers. Most girls gave up their babies but I did not. You could not legally keep your baby unless you were 20 without the approval of your parents. Way back then it was expected that you had your baby, gave it up and went back to your life as if nothing had ever happened. Adoptive babies came back to the on site nursery until they were adopted. The few girls who kept their babies were allowed to help in the nursery so they could prepare for taking care of their own children. I was encouraged to go back and finish my college education by the nuns, which I did. I also held a job and raised my son on my own. My story turned out well. As my sister says I was ahead of my time. In England, the Anglican church started the Magdalene Laundries in 1758 and later in Scotland, Australia and Canada the Catholic church in Ireland followed suit and used the girls for free labor and the girls were treated terribly and their babies taken away from them. Sadly, their families happily sent their daughters off to these places as they were a disgrace to the family and they did not want to deal with them. Most girls never went back to their families and most died being kept as slaves in these places. The last of these places didn't close until the 1960's. There is an excellent movie called the Magdalene Sisters made in 2002 that is about this subject. A more recent movie that came out in 2013 called Philomena stars Judi Dench as a woman who had lived at one of the laundries and went back after the laundries had been closed to see if she could find her son who was given up for adoption. The Anglican church and the Catholic church could never have done this without the consent of their members who willingly and knowingly gave their daughters over to these places. Another movie called Oranges and Sunshine told the story of how the UK forcibly relocated poor children from the UK to Australia, New Zealand and Canada after WWII to the early 1970's to be used by companies and the church for free labor. The families were told their kids were adopted by good English families and the children were told their parents either had died or didn't want them back. These kids had to work for free and then keep working to pay for their own release. Not until 1986, when a social worker named Margaret Humphries had met adults who had been raised overseas and told her their stories of being sent abroad to live did someone start to investigate what had happened and a huge scandal was uncovered. I guess any institution left unchecked can commit horrible things.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Didn't read the article, but many of us are fully aware of the scandalous behavior of the catholic church and pedophile priests. Finding out about how priests are protected was the initial step in my becoming atheist. The more I learned, the more I questioned not only the church but the whole idea of god and religion.
> 
> To be clear, my questioning went well beyond the ills of organized religion and was a long, difficult process so I have not rejected religion based on the evil done by men in the name of god.


The article I was referring to, had nothing to do with pedophile priests. It was about the catholic church funneling monies to support communism.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I can remember many kind nuns. In all of my years in convent schools I only had one really bad tempered and nasty nun. It was only years later that I came to understand why she was so angry all the time; it was the students she was teaching. Some of them were downright dumb, and now nearly 60 years since I left that school and meeting some of them again I realise just how dumb they were, and how dumb they still are. Yes, they were the daughters of the women who attended mass on a daily basis, who ran the tuckshop at the school, organised the school fete and so forth. If I wanted to be unkind I would label these mothers as 'camp followers'. I was talking to another woman just recently and she was taught by this nun at another convent some years after the nun taught me. It was one of Perth's leading girls' schools and therefore attracted a better class of student. The fees were much, much higher than the local convent I attended. This woman said the nun would relate stories to the girls on just how dumb and stupid some of those Midland girls were. The nun said it was like trying to extract teeth from a rocking horse trying to get some of the Midland kids to think. Those Midland girls have, to my mind, never progressed beyond their teenage years. They all married good catholic boys who attended the local Christian Brothers School, had the required number of children who also attended the local convent, and now grandchildren who are doing the same. These girls have never travelled anywhere and have never lived anywhere but in Midland. They built their first house in the suburb, extended as the family grew and are now living in retirement units in the suburb. Not one of them attended University or Technical School. They still meet every week to play cards and have lunch or a meal out, but usually at Dome never at a really first class restaurant.
> 
> On the other hand I still remember Sister Mary Carmel, who taught me from 1951 - 1953. She inspired me. One of her favourite sayings was "Now remember girls, you are Convent girls; you can achieve anything. Venture forward and achieve." Some 20 years ago I met another nun who taught me. She was then in her 90s and she was still young at heart and still had a wicked sense of humour. It was at a special celebration of her long life as a nun. One of the local vignerons had brought along some of the port he produced and he had made special labels for the wine. He had called it 'Sister Anthony's Wine' in her honour. He had given her a bottle to take back to the nunnery with her. She was sitting next to me and said "go and get me another bottle of that wine, I will keep it in my bedside cabinet and have a wee drink every night when I go to bed. No, better still, make it two bottles, it will last longer then."
> 
> ...


It sounds to me as if these nuns were guilty of elitism. It was their job to teach those girls and bring them up, not to be mean to them and put them down. And I find it extremely inappropriate that these nuns told future classes (in the "good" neighborhoods) how dumb the girls were. How is that right in any world? And if the girls truly were "dumb", perhaps the nun was to blame. After all, it was her job to teach them.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

JustBeachy said:


> Omaha, for a while, pretty much had no hospitals other than 'Pest houses', if it weren't for the Sisters of Mercy.
> 
> Many, maybe MOST areas gained access to healthcare because of the Catholic church and particularly Orders of Nuns.
> 
> ...


So, are you suggesting that the Sisters of Mercy were connected to the Vatican? Were they part of the hierarchy of the church?

I DID say that there are many, many truly good catholic people. Did you think that I would not include the Sisters of Mercy in that category. Keep in mind that while those nuns were working without pay and living in spartan conditions, the church hierarchy was living like royalty. THAT'S what I was referring to.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I read the article and I found it to be poppycock. Are you an expert on Catholicism or even a Catholic? I think that Pope Francis is a breath of fresh air in the church and as such I pray he will not be assassinated as many of his predecessors have been for not protecting the status quo. I was raised in the Church and as a member know there are a multitude of changes that need to be made to improve it and one of the least of my worries is if this Pope leans towards Communism or Socialism. The way things are going now I don't believe the church will be able to exist until and unless it does a lot of soul searching and internal house cleaning. Bringing people of good will, be they Capitalist, Communist etc. together for the betterment of mankind and the planet is exactly what Francis should be doing.


If you'd read the article, you'd know that it wasn't ME saying these things. It was a CATHOLIC group that did the research and investigation. And if you think that living in a communist society would be just fine if the pope recommended it, ask anyone who has actually lived in a communist country, if they'd agree with you. They're not trying to bring together people of different "isms". They're financing the promotion of communism.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you for pointing out the good they've done with their hospitals. The Crusades and the Inquisition can be criticized regardless of when one's faith came into being, but the Church has had its good moments as well. I don't see how anyone can knock a 2,000-year-old institution on the basis of last week's news.


"Last week's news"??? Really? There's been plenty to " knock" throughout its history.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Sounds right to me.


How can it sound right? It had nothing to do with what the article said.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> If you'd read the article, you'd know that it wasn't ME saying these things. It was a CATHOLIC group that did the research and investigation. And if you think that living in a communist society would be just fine if the pope recommended it, ask anyone who has actually lived in a communist country, if they'd agree with you. They're not trying to bring together people of different "isms". They're financing the promotion of communism.


In your dreams maybe. Capitalism isn't all that it is cracked up to be.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> The article I was referring to, had nothing to do with pedophile priests. It was about the catholic church funneling monies to support communism.


Your sources are dubious at best. It is a rag sheet put out by the right wing fringe element which you seem to buy into. You may believe it but I know better. I live in the real world.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> That is such a healthy attitude that it should be taken to heart as a way to conduct one's life.
> 
> If we are honest with ourselves, we will acknowledge that the way we were raised shapes us. And most of us who were raised within a particular faith community will, as we mature and become more critical in our thinking, see factors that could be improved upon to reinforce the positive aspects of our faith. Equally, we will endeavor to remove behaviors or ideologies that we consider negative or harmful.
> 
> ...


Marilyn, you make so much sense. So many things have 
occurred in the name of Religion, (all of them) over the years that no one has all the answers. I know my feelings about Christianity are a result of the Christianity my family and I lived. It colored my life - I was fortunate to see both sides of Christianity and so I am much more neutral in my 
beliefs. I hope I can accept and know those who are true to the beliefs, and I also hope I can know those who live one thing and say another.

I have learned so much about your Religion since I have been on these threads.

Just as story I was involved in in l944 or 45.

I was a members of the Canadian Girls in Training which was a Christian group of non Catholic (I don't think the Catholic girls had CGIT. I was the President of our Church group and on the council for the city.

I had a lot of Jewish friends in my school, one or two very special ones who used to tell me about what happens in the Temple and even then I was interested in the differences. I also grew of a a very close friend of a wonderful Catholic Family and spent many hours there.

One day we were having lunch in the high school we all attended and I suggested that we approach our Pastor, Rabbi's and Priest to see if we could do a 'round robin' attending each of the Church ceremonies, together. All three agreed so we arranged a a day a month for 3 months so that we could all attend the three Churches including the Temple together. Then we would have a discussion among our 3 groups. The Pastors of all three (Priest, Rabbi and Minister) decided that we should hold a discussion in our 3 Churches with all of those attending the visits, joining in.

It was the most interesting and wonderful experience. I went to school in a school where most of the Jewish teenagers were attending and had alot of school time friends, although we rarely saw each other outside the school. The Catholic Church had their own Catholic schools and as a result there was a real lack of knowledge.

Our first visit was a Jewish service and the Rabbi gave a wonderful talk about what we were doing. The Cantor amazed all of us with his wonderful wonderful voice. We all felt we were in a Holy place. We were welcomed completely and I learned so much as he was very kind about answering our questions after the service was finished.

Then they came to my Church-- We arranged for them to visit on Flower and Bird sunday, when we celebrated God's world and his gifts to us. People from the congregation brought their singing canaries and they were placed on the balcony all around the second floor of the Church. Everyone brought Lilacs and other flowers. The Church was beautiful. We had a wonderful organ master and our choir was outstanding and they put on a celebration just for the group of us Jews and Catholics were invited and many came so the Church was standing room only.We had a wonderful choir and they learned a Jewish song of praise for the service.. The canaries sang their little hearts out , the flowers were gorgeous and I never see a lilac bush without remembering that day. (We held it every year ) and I remember it when I was a little girl  Our Church was the least fancy of the three religions but we all felt it was a holy place.

Then the next month we all when to the Cathedral (St. Mary's) and we couldn't believe how beautiful the Church was. Or how wonderful the service was and even though we didn't understand the Mass - we felt the presence of God there. They had lunch for us and so many people told us how important they felt it was that our faiths could join together to learn about each other we all felt it was a holy place

We held a large meeting and the City paper publicized it and it was a wonderful experience for all of us.

It was during World War II and many of my friends lost whole families in the Holocaust. Prayers were said all over and the following year the Jewish young people were invited once again to visit the other two Churches and we tried to show them how much we cared.

It affected my life. I became extremely interested in Israel and what has happened there. I have always been interested in what has happened in the Catholic Church . It make a huge difference in all our lives.

This is the first time I have ever discussed this story on line and have only talked about it with close friends and family.

It was a life changing experience for all of us. I never have gone by a Temple without remembering that wonderfjul Rabbi who spoke so kindly to us all, and the Cantor who sang. Nor have I forgotten the beautiful service at St. Mary's Cathedral. I attended Christmas eve Mass there for 15 years until Pat and I were moved away from Calgary. I also attended two weddings of close Jewish friends. I wish everyone had had that experience. It helped me as I had not had a very good history in the Church until I went to that special Church.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> "Last week's news"??? Really? There's been plenty to " knock" throughout its history.


What's your beef with the Catholic church? We know you hate them but you can't seem to explain why. Why do you care what the Pope thinks? Are you a Catholic?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> How on earth do you believe that what you said was not offensive? You do not tolerate other's criticism well and yet you repeatedly say the most offensive things to the rest of the women on this thread. Fortunately, for you they forgive you over and over again. I am not that magnanimous. I was raised in the Catholic Church and no longer am a regular practicing member because of some of the things that have happened in the church that I cannot accept. The Catholic Church is still my family and taught me right from wrong and how to live a good life. It also taught me that I am here to serve others and do good whenever I can. Jesus does not enable me to go to Heaven. I will go to Heaven based on how I lead my life. Jesus was a man who lived a life one could look to as an example on how a decent person conducts himself and his interactions with others. When you say the awful things you posted about the church on this thread you insulted me personally and I think you have a lot of nerve. I wouldn't criticize your family and I do not appreciate you criticizing mine. I am very aware of all of the shortcomings of the church and as a member I have a right to criticize just like I would criticize a member of my family if they did something wrong and I would try to help them and hopefully fix what needs fixing. I don't see you as a liberal in any sense of the word and I think you are accepted here because we are liberals and much more tolerant people than the right where you seem to live. I have read many of your posts that I thought were way out in left field but kindly just passed on by them without comment. I guess I will have to consider the source and leave it at that.


I do not believe that what I said, wasn't offensive. Poor Purl made a sarcastic comment to me and I replied in kind. I'm sorry that you didn't take it that way.

As I stated in the beginning, there are many, many really good catholic people. I was not referring to the people, but the hierarchy. You yourself, said that you are no longer a practicing member because of some of the things that have happened in the church. So, why is that different than what I said? Did I not make it clear that I was not referring to the catholic people? I thought I had. What awful things did I say, that were not true? The offensive remarks that I made were directed at the hierarchy of the church. You shouldn't be offended unless you think they're flawless.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Thank you Marilyn and Shirley for sharing your experiences with us. I appreciate it very much. We can accomplish much more by coming together and learning about each other. When we decide to tear apart other's beliefs and practices nothing good comes of it.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> Hello from flooded Texas! Fortunately, I'm in Dallas so we haven't had as many issues as other areas but gee it's wet here! Haven't been able to do any gardening because you step in the yard and it's squishy! Even had a baby snake somehow show up in the guest bathroom. How lucky am I that hubs found it because I would have run to my car and taken off to the nearest bar.
> 
> Speaking of hubs, he drove to Pennsylvania to pick up the newest addition to our family of German Wire Hairs. Miss River should be home on Thursday. I have been babysitting Beaudreax (aka Boo) and Sydney.
> 
> ...


Thanks, GWPlver! We've not had any flooding here, but I'm busily trying to dig myself out of a great big pile of mud.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I do not believe that what I said, wasn't offensive. Poor Purl made a sarcastic comment to me and I replied in kind. I'm sorry that you didn't take it that way.
> 
> As I stated in the beginning, there are many, many really good catholic people. I was not referring to the people, but the hierarchy. You yourself, said that you are no longer a practicing member because of some of the things that have happened in the church. So, why is that different than what I said? Did I not make it clear that I was not referring to the catholic people? I thought I had. What awful things did I say, that were not true? The offensive remarks that I made were directed at the hierarchy of the church. You shouldn't be offended unless you think they're flawless.


I explained to you that you criticize me when you criticize the Catholic church. Purl made a sarcastic remark concerning what you wrote which I don't believe was her agreeing with what you said. Also, our dear Purl, as we know is Jewish. If you came out and attacked her religion I am sure her reaction to you would be much the same as mine. Purl, if I am wrong please correct me.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, GWPlver! We've not had any flooding here, but I'm busily trying to dig myself out of a great big pile of mud.


As they say you made your bed and if it is in a pile of mud it is because you put yourself there. It really would be very easy to dig yourself out but I guess you don't know which shovel to use. Hint, it's not the one that got you there in the first place.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I agree with you Cheeky. I believe he will do everything he can to change things for the better. That is my opinion and I hope that I am correct. I have read all the links tonight and
> I find it hard to agree with much of it. I certainly don't believe that all of them are the absolute truth. I think that they are the opinions of the people who wrote them,(which doesn't make them wrong as I am not familiar with the writers.
> 
> I just wonder why it is so hard to know what we are reading is the truth. I am not inclined to believe a lot of political links as usually the people who write them are on one side or the other.


I don't know how this got to be so controversial. I posted a link to an article about catholics investigating the hierarchy of the catholic church. I merely commented on what they said. Then, people made side comments about the pedophile priests and nuns abuse of unwed mothers. So, I commented on those comments, in agreement actually. I made a side comment about things I'd heard about nuns teaching in catholic schools. Does anyone here think that it's good or fair that the catholic hierarchy live like kings and princes, on the backs of the poor? Is that how I've offended? Does anyone think that the catholic hierarchy is justified in protecting their own, who have molested children? What did I say that was controversial?

One more thing...everyone seems enamored by the new pope. I'm just wondering why? What has he done? Has he turned in the pedophile priests? Has he taken the church's riches and given them to the poor? I heard him say lots of pretty things, but what has he done to earn such adoration? And IF he is funding the spread of communism like the CATHOLIC group says he is, why is that a good thing?


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> If you'd read the article, you'd know that it wasn't ME saying these things. It was a CATHOLIC group that did the research and investigation. And if you think that living in a communist society would be just fine if the pope recommended it, ask anyone who has actually lived in a communist country, if they'd agree with you. They're not trying to bring together people of different "isms". They're financing the promotion of communism.


Then why did you post it and why are you continuing to make hurtful comments? Your hole is just getting deeper and deeper and you just don't get it.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> Hey Miss SQM:
> 
> We had sun today - all day long!!! The month of May could well be the wettest in Texas history! Usually we see rain in April and less in May but not this year. My cousin from Washington D.C. visited last weekend and stayed in an area that experienced a small tornado. I think I will send her a T-shirt that reads "I survived a Texas tornado!".


We tied the record for the rainiest May. I am so tired of rain! I just got my garden planted today, well except for the potatoes. I'll do those tomorrow. But we've only had severe weather once, which is unusual.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I agree with you. The Catholic Church has always been and will always be a huge target for criticism. Much of it deserved and much attacks from those who hate it for a variety of reason founded and unfounded. I lived with the Sisters of Carondelet when I was a pregnant teenager and lived with them until the birth of my son. My parents paid for my care but no girl was turned away if they did not have money. All girls had to go to school on site and were taught by the nuns. All were treated with great kindness and love. No one was ever mistreated. We also had a clinic on site where OBGYN doctor would come in weekly for the girl's checkups. All babies were born in the Catholic hospital in the city. The nuns were some of the kindest most wonderful women I have ever known. All were either teachers, nurses or social workers. Most girls gave up their babies but I did not. You could not legally keep your baby unless you were 20 without the approval of your parents. Way back then it was expected that you had your baby, gave it up and went back to your life as if nothing had ever happened. Adoptive babies came back to the on site nursery until they were adopted. The few girls who kept their babies were allowed to help in the nursery so they could prepare for taking care of their own children. I was encouraged to go back and finish my college education by the nuns, which I did. I also held a job and raised my son on my own. My story turned out well. As my sister says I was ahead of my time. In England, the Anglican church started the Magdalene Laundries in 1758 and later in Scotland, Australia and Canada the Catholic church in Ireland followed suit and used the girls for free labor and the girls were treated terribly and their babies taken away from them. Sadly, their families happily sent their daughters off to these places as they were a disgrace to the family and they did not want to deal with them. Most girls never went back to their families and most died being kept as slaves in these places. The last of these places didn't close until the 1960's. There is an excellent movie called the Magdalene Sisters made in 2002 that is about this subject. A more recent movie that came out in 2013 called Philomena stars Judi Dench as a woman who had lived at one of the laundries and went back after the laundries had been closed to see if she could find her son who was given up for adoption. The Anglican church and the Catholic church could never have done this without the consent of their members who willingly and knowingly gave their daughters over to these places. Another movie called Oranges and Sunshine told the story of how the UK forcibly relocated poor children from the UK to Australia, New Zealand and Canada after WWII to the early 1970's to be used by companies and the church for free labor. The families were told their kids were adopted by good English families and the children were told their parents either had died or didn't want them back. These kids had to work for free and then keep working to pay for their own release. Not until 1986, when a social worker named Margaret Humphries had met adults who had been raised overseas and told her their stories of being sent abroad to live did someone start to investigate what had happened and a huge scandal was uncovered. I guess any institution left unchecked can commit horrible things.


Thank you for sharing your story. We rarely hear about ones like that. The others, make me want to cry.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Ever hear of Mother Teresa?



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Sorry i was so vague. I didnt want to offend anyone.
> 
> Some? Its history is riddled with horrible moments. And IMO, it's the individual catholics who have done good. I cant think of what the institution has done.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

IMHO you generalize too much.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Warning:In this instance, when I speak of the catholic church, I am referring to the institution, not the individuals. IMO, the catholic church is filled with putrid rot! The institution has given itself over to satan. Their hierarchy is filled with self- worshipping evil men, who do not know GOD. That the church would stand by as these evil men murder the spirit and soul of these children, makes them equally evil. This institution is about greed and power. They amass riches on earth, but almost certainly, none in heaven. The rot starts at the head! People should be very careful listening to the words of these evil men. They like to use pretty words. They deceive many. The truth lies in what they do, and what they allow to be done, to the weakest of us. That even ONE of them would protect a pedophile to save the church, shows you where they lie. They are evil through and through!
> 
> I pray that the the innocent people who support this putrid institution, come to see that they are supporting evil. By their numbers and with their money, they give this putrid rot, power. That power needs to end. All power and glory should go to GOD, not satan.
> 
> I also believe that the catholic church is not the only church, who has succumbed to evil. Someday, these mighty men will stand before GOD, and he will say, I did not know you.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I tend to agree.



Poor Purl said:


> Oh, c'mon, Nebraska, don't be shy. Tell us how you _really_ feel about the RC Church.
> 
> The Catholic Church has some horrible moments in its history, but it's done a lot of good, as well. Unfortunately, it chooses its leaders the way any patriarchal organization does, and that's a serious problem in itself.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Education. Feeding the poor. Tending the sick. You may want to do some research.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Sorry i was so vague. I didnt want to offend anyone.
> 
> Some? Its history is riddled with horrible moments. And IMO, it's the individual catholics who have done good. I cant think of what the institution has done.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That was an extreme order of nuns in Ireland. Many other orders have done much good. Generalization distorts the facts.



Poor Purl said:


> That depends on how you perceive the collective orders of nuns. As far as I know, there's only one blot on their record: the virtual imprisonment of pregnant girls, treating them as slave labor and removing their infants from them.
> 
> Come to think of it, if they could do that, they could do anything.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My experience agrees with Eve's.



EveMCooke said:


> Apart from an overemphasis on Catholic doctrine it gave me an excellent education that has engendered a love of learning. I was taught to think and to question, and I did question what the nuns told me. I was also taught elocution, a love of classical music, a thirst for knowledge, a love of history, grooming and craft skills as part of my primary school education.
> 
> The Catholic church opened schools in many of the world's poorer nations in order to bring education to the children.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> As far as I can see almost every Christian sect has had bad moments in their history, and rotten individuals who care for nothing but money or power can be found in most of them, too.
> 
> From what I have heard/seen of Pope Francis, he's not one of them. And he's working to reform the Vatican. It will take time. Even an atheist like myself can see that he's a good man who sincerely tries to live up to his ideals.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> In your dreams maybe. Capitalism isn't all that it is cracked up to be.


True capitalism or even true communism, would both work. But looking at the realities, I'd still choose capitalism over communism. Crony capitalism is taking over, but we can still walk into a grocery store and find food on the shelves. We don't have to spend hours standing in line to buy toilet paper. Until recently, we didn't have to worry about our government spying on us. We don't yet have to worry about our government killing us for speaking out. We've many flaws and social injustices, but none of those will be solved through communism. I don't know how to take power away from the rich and powerful. But I know that any system will be corrupt until that happens.

Why do you think that communism is better than capitalism? Do you believe that true communism is even a possibility? Do you think that the rich and powerful can ever be made to give up their power?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I do not believe that what I said, wasn't offensive. Poor Purl made a sarcastic comment to me and I replied in kind. I'm sorry that you didn't take it that way.
> 
> As I stated in the beginning, there are many, many really good catholic people. I was not referring to the people, but the hierarchy. You yourself, said that you are no longer a practicing member because of some of the things that have happened in the church. So, why is that different than what I said? Did I not make it clear that I was not referring to the catholic people? I thought I had. What awful things did I say, that were not true? The offensive remarks that I made were directed at the hierarchy of the church. You shouldn't be offended unless you think they're flawless.


==========
#1 -who says she shouldn't be offended? She has every right to be offended. It is the Church she was raised in that you are attacking. The Pope has said many things recently that showed he is trying to rectify some of the things -- yet you tell us he is evil and can't be believed. How do you know that???? I don't agree - he is a good man.

NEb, the difference is that she was a Catholic and knows better than anyone the good and bad things about her Church. It is insulting that someone comes and says things that is some cases are not true. I read your post and although I am not a Catholic, I know that I don't agree with many of the things you said in your post. You said you were not referring to the Catholic people, but then you made very negative statements about the Pope and the Church. It is fine for me to talk about the problems in my own Church but I sure won't stand for anyone insulting and making statements that are obviously one person's negative opinion, especially if I take exception to the statements made.

You make such statements all the time. It isn't a discussion, you lecture us and it is hard not to get frustrated. Show me one of us who does that - we are liberal and being liberal or Conservative, you KNOW we don't agree with you about most things -you are A strong Conservative- yet you come here and lecture us about many things you KNOW we don't agree with and never will. You state things as facts when we don't believe they are facts. We are your friends, but it is still very frustrating. Most are more polite than I am and don't take you on. I likely will continue, because I believe it is wrong for people to make statements when it is just their opinion not necessarily facts or the truth in many cases.

Cheekie has every right to stand up for the Church she was raised in. She is well aware of some of the Problems in the Catholic Church and some of them might have influenced her to leave it. But it is still the Church she was raised in and she learned good things from being a member. You say you were not talking about the people - just the hierarchy, but then you insulted the Pope and imply he doesn't mean a word he says. You used insulting words about the Church too. Catholics know better than anyone what has gone on, practical everyone I have read from here believe the Pope is a good man and wants to change a lot of things. More power to him.

YOu wonder why I question you so much when it comes to our differences and the things you say.-- please read my last post. It tells you how I learned many many good things about different religions. I think you have made statements here that have hurt quite a few of us as they are so black and white. Things are not black and white. If you admitted there were some greys, instead of implying you are always right, it would be less frustrating. I understand completely how she reacted. She knows much more about the Church than you or I do. I don't feel it is my place to lecture her and make the statements about the Church that you did in your last post.

It doesn't matter who you were answering you still make statements that were uncalled for when there are Catholic or former Catholic people here. Your statements about the Pope are not agreed by most here- yet you say with no possibility of disagreement that he is a bad man

All you have to do is say IT IS YOUR OPINION. Not state it as a fact when you know most of us,don't agree with you about him or about many many things you state as facts.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Your sources are dubious at best. It is a rag sheet put out by the right wing fringe element which you seem to buy into. You may believe it but I know better. I live in the real world.


There is a link to the actual report. So you can ignore my source and read it for yourself.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I read the article and I found it to be poppycock. Are you an expert on Catholicism or even a Catholic? I think that Pope Francis is a breath of fresh air in the church and as such I pray he will not be assassinated as many of his predecessors have been for not protecting the status quo. I was raised in the Church and as a member know there are a multitude of changes that need to be made to improve it and one of the least of my worries is if this Pope leans towards Communism or Socialism. The way things are going now I don't believe the church will be able to exist until and unless it does a lot of soul searching and internal house cleaning. Bringing people of good will, be they Capitalist, Communist etc. together for the betterment of mankind and the planet is exactly what Francis should be doing.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I agree with you. The Catholic Church has always been and will always be a huge target for criticism. Much of it deserved and much attacks from those who hate it for a variety of reason founded and unfounded. I lived with the Sisters of Carondelet when I was a pregnant teenager and lived with them until the birth of my son. My parents paid for my care but no girl was turned away if they did not have money. All girls had to go to school on site and were taught by the nuns. All were treated with great kindness and love. No one was ever mistreated. We also had a clinic on site where OBGYN doctor would come in weekly for the girl's checkups. All babies were born in the Catholic hospital in the city. The nuns were some of the kindest most wonderful women I have ever known. All were either teachers, nurses or social workers. Most girls gave up their babies but I did not. You could not legally keep your baby unless you were 20 without the approval of your parents. Way back then it was expected that you had your baby, gave it up and went back to your life as if nothing had ever happened. Adoptive babies came back to the on site nursery until they were adopted. The few girls who kept their babies were allowed to help in the nursery so they could prepare for taking care of their own children. I was encouraged to go back and finish my college education by the nuns, which I did. I also held a job and raised my son on my own. My story turned out well. As my sister says I was ahead of my time. In England, the Anglican church started the Magdalene Laundries in 1758 and later in Scotland, Australia and Canada the Catholic church in Ireland followed suit and used the girls for free labor and the girls were treated terribly and their babies taken away from them. Sadly, their families happily sent their daughters off to these places as they were a disgrace to the family and they did not want to deal with them. Most girls never went back to their families and most died being kept as slaves in these places. The last of these places didn't close until the 1960's. There is an excellent movie called the Magdalene Sisters made in 2002 that is about this subject. A more recent movie that came out in 2013 called Philomena stars Judi Dench as a woman who had lived at one of the laundries and went back after the laundries had been closed to see if she could find her son who was given up for adoption. The Anglican church and the Catholic church could never have done this without the consent of their members who willingly and knowingly gave their daughters over to these places. Another movie called Oranges and Sunshine told the story of how the UK forcibly relocated poor children from the UK to Australia, New Zealand and Canada after WWII to the early 1970's to be used by companies and the church for free labor. The families were told their kids were adopted by good English families and the children were told their parents either had died or didn't want them back. These kids had to work for free and then keep working to pay for their own release. Not until 1986, when a social worker named Margaret Humphries had met adults who had been raised overseas and told her their stories of being sent abroad to live did someone start to investigate what had happened and a huge scandal was uncovered. I guess any institution left unchecked can commit horrible things.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

My sister got pregnant and was toldit would be best if she left home by my Dad.

I contacted the Salvation Army and they helped us. I helped her fly to the Salvation Army in Montreal where they found her a place with a Jewish Family who she was still in contact with until her alzheimers. The Salvation army and the couple who paid her to help with their children and do a small amount of cooking ,belonged to a Temple near by both helped her throughout the time she was waiting for her baby. My parents never admitted to anyone that she was pregnant. She left because she knew that my Dad didn't want to be embarrassed.

After all he was a well known elder in the Church and we couldn't have a baby in that situation.

I had left prior to that - that was in l950.

The family treated her like family, and insisted on being with her when her baby arrived. The salvation army brought many things in the way of nice clothes and things for the baby to be given to the adoptive parents. The Jewish congregation (excuse my ignorance (not sure what it is called)) collected money for her to get an apartment and helped her find a job. They were wonderful people. The 'Army' in my opinion is one of the best Protestant Churches there are and does more good than most of the others all together. Our experiences make up our opinions. That is what I live my life by -- my experiences, as do you all.

There are so many things I don't know, and likely never will, that I take care (I learned this on this forum) that I try to see both sides, although it is hard here. I believe with everything I am, that Liberalism or Progressivism is the only answer to many of the problems in the world. I believe liberalism is the basis for my own religious beliefs.

Well ladies,I have typed a lot tonight. Anyway, it has been interesting to say the least. take care everyone.

Nebs, I hope the babies are thriving and that their mother is doing well. Shirley


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> How on earth do you believe that what you said was not offensive? You do not tolerate other's criticism well and yet you repeatedly say the most offensive things to the rest of the women on this thread. Fortunately, for you they forgive you over and over again. I am not that magnanimous. I was raised in the Catholic Church and no longer am a regular practicing member because of some of the things that have happened in the church that I cannot accept. The Catholic Church is still my family and taught me right from wrong and how to live a good life. It also taught me that I am here to serve others and do good whenever I can. Jesus does not enable me to go to Heaven. I will go to Heaven based on how I lead my life. Jesus was a man who lived a life one could look to as an example on how a decent person conducts himself and his interactions with others. When you say the awful things you posted about the church on this thread you insulted me personally and I think you have a lot of nerve. I wouldn't criticize your family and I do not appreciate you criticizing mine. I am very aware of all of the shortcomings of the church and as a member I have a right to criticize just like I would criticize a member of my family if they did something wrong and I would try to help them and hopefully fix what needs fixing. I don't see you as a liberal in any sense of the word and I think you are accepted here because we are liberals and much more tolerant people than the right where you seem to live. I have read many of your posts that I thought were way out in left field but kindly just passed on by them without comment. I guess I will have to consider the source and leave it at that.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I am so glad you posted this-- once again, you can't put all Nuns, or all Priests in the same box. There are good priests, and some very poor priests, just as there are some great Pastors and and very poor pastors, Some wonderful caring nuns and some not nice nuns. There are good and bad people everywhere.
> 
> I feel so strongly about that. I have met people who were, and some who are hypocrites as far as their religion is concerned. Tney put on a great show but don't live it - ask me how I know. I grew up in that type of
> religious home. Yet there are others who are kind, strong,
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

You have no concept of how insulting you are. That's why I don't intend to get involved.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I don't know how this got to be so controversial. I posted a link to an article about catholics investigating the hierarchy of the catholic church. I merely commented on what they said. Then, people made side comments about the pedophile priests and nuns abuse of unwed mothers. So, I commented on those comments, in agreement actually. I made a side comment about things I'd heard about nuns teaching in catholic schools. Does anyone here think that it's good or fair that the catholic hierarchy live like kings and princes, on the backs of the poor? Is that how I've offended? Does anyone think that the catholic hierarchy is justified in protecting their own, who have molested children? What did I say that was controversial?
> 
> One more thing...everyone seems enamored by the new pope. I'm just wondering why? What has he done? Has he turned in the pedophile priests? Has he taken the church's riches and given them to the poor? I heard him say lots of pretty things, but what has he done to earn such adoration? And IF he is funding the spread of communism like the CATHOLIC group says he is, why is that a good thing?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> What's your beef with the Catholic church? We know you hate them but you can't seem to explain why. Why do you care what the Pope thinks? Are you a Catholic?


I thought I'd made myself clear, in that my beef is with the hierarchy of the church. I've nothing against the catholic people.

You shared a story, so I'll share a story. My best friend who I've known since kindergarten, is a Catholic, like you're a Catholic. She's no longer practicing. She was pregnant with her son when her husband had an affair, got another woman pregnant and divorced her, through no choice of her own. Her son was born the day after the divorce was granted. She was an absolute wreck! They'd been trying to have a baby for five years and never did she imagine that he would do that to her. Her son was born with a physical deformity that required immediate surgery. She called her priest and asked him to baptize her son. He refused to baptize her son because she was divorced. He had his surgery and survived. She eventually found a priest who was willing to baptize her son but he couldn't or wouldn't do it in the church. So, if that's not evil, what is? The woman was not only abandoned by her husband, but she was abandoned by her church. She was branded a sinner through no fault of her own and her son was branded right along with her. She still tried to raise her son in the church! She was a single mother who never received a dime of child support. When it came time for him to attend CCD, she couldn't afford to pay for it. Those who taught the classes got to have their children attend free. So she signed up to teach a class, so that her son could receive Catholic instruction. But she was not allowed to teach a class, because she was divorced. Again, through no fault of her own.

So, it starts there. Add the way the church handled the pedophile priests and a few other things, and there's my beef!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Then why did you post it and why are you continuing to make hurtful comments? Your hole is just getting deeper and deeper and you just don't get it.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I explained to you that you criticize me when you criticize the Catholic church. Purl made a sarcastic remark concerning what you wrote which I don't believe was her agreeing with what you said. Also, our dear Purl, as we know is Jewish. If you came out and attacked her religion I am sure her reaction to you would be much the same as mine. Purl, if I am wrong please correct me.


I specifically criticized the hierarchy of the church. I specifically excluded the good people. So, how does that critisize you? Are you responsible for taking from the poor, hoarding riches and living like royalty? Are you responsible for protecting pedophiles? What exactly, did I say to criticize you? If you were to criticize the lutheran church, I wouldn't take it personally, so I can't understand why you would.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> That depends on how you perceive the collective orders of nuns. As far as I know, there's only one blot on their record: the virtual imprisonment of pregnant girls, treating them as slave labor and removing their infants from them.
> 
> Come to think of it, if they could do that, they could do anything.


Nuns have been found to be allegedly instrumental in assisting paedophile priests to commit their crimes. This has come out in the Royal Commission here. They would collect the children, one by one, take them to the offender and ensure no interruption. Nuns, in this case, are just as guilty.

Just want to add that the Royal Commission is also an investigation from which criminal charges will be sought.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I thought I'd made myself clear, in that my beef is with the hierarchy of the church. I've nothing against the catholic people.
> 
> So, it starts there. Add the way the church handled the pedophile priests and a few other things, and there's my beef!


--------------------------

I also believe that what is happening with the Party you plan on voting for is becoming inherently bad for your country. I believe that some of those who are running for the GOP ticket are not interested in your country but only in becoming President so that they can put their ideas into action, and to heck with what it does to hurt the United States, instead of trying to work together.

Why don't you question some of the statements being made. We don't take you on and even discuss those things with you but it would be nice to know that you see what we don't see - the fact that everything they have done since before he (your President )was elected has been to make sure he doesn't succeed. That is a proven fact and admitted by many of the Republicans in Government.

YOu never seem to say anything about the statements being spoken by those who are running for President, or do you agree with everything they say? Those subjects would make for a two sided conversation for a change. So, tell us, what do you think of those who are running on the Right. Do you believe they are correct in some of the things they say, or do you question them all or do you believe that everything they say is a good idea.

I think all of us on this thread would like to know what you think of Cruz, Santorium, Huckabee and each of the the rest of those who are running as of now, but also include Bush and Christie.Or do you think they are all very bright and truthful Politicians? After all you plan on voting Republican or have said you think you are.Who do you think will make the best President to represent your Country. I won't be surprised if you are not interested in having a conversation like this as you are a pretty intelligent person and it might be hard to discuss your real thoughts about most of them.

The things that interest us and that we could discuss are never brought up by you. I hope you will tell us what you think of those on the Republican party and which one you will vote for if you know. Or at least your basic thoughts on each of them. You are well read - I personally would be really interested and I think others would be too.

Do you like Bush? do you like the fact that if he runs he will ask his brother who started a war on a lie for advice as to whether to start another one? I would bet that 99% of us on this thread would like to hear your honest opinion of the people running for the right. We would likely not agree with most of what you feel, but it would be interesting to hear your take on what is happening.

I am sure we won't agree but we know you are bright, and will tell us the way you see it. You know our opinions about just about everyone of them, as well as those who are part of the elections representing the left.

Lets leave the Pope and the Churches out of it and talk about who is running for the Republicans. I am sure you have very definite opinions. I personally am really interested in finding out what you think.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I try really hard not to judge individuals based upon the groups they are part of. But from my teens through my adult years, I've known several women who attended catholic schools, six of whom I considered "best friends". All of them attended catholic schools and all of them related the same tales of cruel nuns, nuns who hit them when they didn't do well and nuns who squashed their spirits by telling them they'd go to hell. They all hated catholic schools. And I've never heard of a kind nun. While some might think they've done good, I think they've done more harm than good.


Catholic schools are very different now. I sent my son to the senior Salesian College for four years and it was the best thing. He's 21 now and often says to me he's glad that he attended Salesian because of his acquired social skills (even though Salesian was an all boys school)! I remember at the time feeling very secure about the school because they genuinely put the boys best interests at the forefront. The teachers were both male and female and the Principal, a priest, was a lovely man and the kids loved him.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> As far as I can see almost every Christian sect has had bad moments in their history, and rotten individuals who care for nothing but money or power can be found in most of them, too.
> 
> From what I have heard/seen of Pope Francis, he's not one of them. And he's working to reform the Vatican. It will take time. Even an atheist like myself can see that he's a good man who sincerely tries to live up to his ideals.


I so agree. :thumbup:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Nuns have been found to be allegedly instrumental in assisting paedophile priests to commit their crimes. This has come out in the Royal Commission here. They would collect the children, one by one, take them to the offender and ensure no interruption. Nuns, in this case, are just as guilty.
> 
> Just want to add that the Royal Commission is also an investigation from which criminal charges will be sought.


And so it should be. No one who is guilty of these things should be protected. They need to be in prison. Those children have to deal with what happened to them for the rest of their lives. Please also know that the majority of priests and nuns are good people but if they cover up for others or enable the crimes they need to be punished too.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> Hello from flooded Texas! Fortunately, I'm in Dallas so we haven't had as many issues as other areas but gee it's wet here! Haven't been able to do any gardening because you step in the yard and it's squishy! Even had a baby snake somehow show up in the guest bathroom. How lucky am I that hubs found it because I would have run to my car and taken off to the nearest bar.
> 
> Speaking of hubs, he drove to Pennsylvania to pick up the newest addition to our family of German Wire Hairs. Miss River should be home on Thursday. I have been babysitting Beaudreax (aka Boo) and Sydney.
> 
> ...


Hello G! Glad you weren't in the thick of the thick of the floods which have been so heart wrenching.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I explained to you that you criticize me when you criticize the Catholic church. Purl made a sarcastic remark concerning what you wrote which I don't believe was her agreeing with what you said. Also, our dear Purl, as we know is Jewish. If you came out and attacked her religion I am sure her reaction to you would be much the same as mine. Purl, if I am wrong please correct me.


Hmm! If not Our Precious Purl, then I would certainly rouse myself from my canopy and have a few words to say.

It is always smart to be delicate about what one says about another person's religion. Even if we are not practicing, we all hold childhood memories of being with family for religious observations and for that reason alone, we should always tread softly.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I agree with you Cheeky. I believe he will do everything he can to change things for the better. That is my opinion and I hope that I am correct. I have read all the links tonight and
> I find it hard to agree with much of it. I certainly don't believe that all of them are the absolute truth. I think that they are the opinions of the people who wrote them,(which doesn't make them wrong as I am not familiar with the writers.
> 
> I just wonder why it is so hard to know what we are reading is the truth. I am not inclined to believe a lot of political links as usually the people who write them are on one side or the other.


Unfortunately, the link I provided about the Royal Commission into child abuse in the Catholic Church tells some sad truths.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> And so it should be. No one who is guilty of these things should be protected. They need to be in prison. Those children have to deal with what happened to them for the rest of their lives.  Please also know that the majority of priests and nuns are good people_ but if they cover up for others or enable the crimes they need to be punished too_.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

agreed -- I think everyone would agree with your statement. It is a difficult problem but I think the Pope will at least try to find a way.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I agree with you. The Catholic Church has always been and will always be a huge target for criticism. Much of it deserved and much attacks from those who hate it for a variety of reason founded and unfounded. I lived with the Sisters of Carondelet when I was a pregnant teenager and lived with them until the birth of my son. My parents paid for my care but no girl was turned away if they did not have money. All girls had to go to school on site and were taught by the nuns. All were treated with great kindness and love. No one was ever mistreated. We also had a clinic on site where OBGYN doctor would come in weekly for the girl's checkups. All babies were born in the Catholic hospital in the city. The nuns were some of the kindest most wonderful women I have ever known. All were either teachers, nurses or social workers. Most girls gave up their babies but I did not. You could not legally keep your baby unless you were 20 without the approval of your parents. Way back then it was expected that you had your baby, gave it up and went back to your life as if nothing had ever happened. Adoptive babies came back to the on site nursery until they were adopted. The few girls who kept their babies were allowed to help in the nursery so they could prepare for taking care of their own children. I was encouraged to go back and finish my college education by the nuns, which I did. I also held a job and raised my son on my own. My story turned out well. As my sister says I was ahead of my time. In England, the Anglican church started the Magdalene Laundries in 1758 and later in Scotland, Australia and Canada the Catholic church in Ireland followed suit and used the girls for free labor and the girls were treated terribly and their babies taken away from them. Sadly, their families happily sent their daughters off to these places as they were a disgrace to the family and they did not want to deal with them. Most girls never went back to their families and most died being kept as slaves in these places. The last of these places didn't close until the 1960's. There is an excellent movie called the Magdalene Sisters made in 2002 that is about this subject. A more recent movie that came out in 2013 called Philomena stars Judi Dench as a woman who had lived at one of the laundries and went back after the laundries had been closed to see if she could find her son who was given up for adoption. The Anglican church and the Catholic church could never have done this without the consent of their members who willingly and knowingly gave their daughters over to these places. Another movie called Oranges and Sunshine told the story of how the UK forcibly relocated poor children from the UK to Australia, New Zealand and Canada after WWII to the early 1970's to be used by companies and the church for free labor. The families were told their kids were adopted by good English families and the children were told their parents either had died or didn't want them back. These kids had to work for free and then keep working to pay for their own release. Not until 1986, when a social worker named Margaret Humphries had met adults who had been raised overseas and told her their stories of being sent abroad to live did someone start to investigate what had happened and a huge scandal was uncovered. I guess any institution left unchecked can commit horrible things.


Cheeky, what an amazing experience and I am glad yours ended in a positive way. A very good film was made about Margaret Humphrey:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-12818070


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> That is such a healthy attitude that it should be taken to heart as a way to conduct one's life.
> 
> If we are honest with ourselves, we will acknowledge that the way we were raised shapes us. And most of us who were raised within a particular faith community will, as we mature and become more critical in our thinking, see factors that could be improved upon to reinforce the positive aspects of our faith. Equally, we will endeavor to remove behaviors or ideologies that we consider negative or harmful.
> 
> ...


As usual, you've said what was on my mind, but you said it much better than I would have.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> True capitalism or even true communism, would both work. But looking at the realities, I'd still choose capitalism over communism. Crony capitalism is taking over, but we can still walk into a grocery store and find food on the shelves. We don't have to spend hours standing in line to buy toilet paper. Until recently, we didn't have to worry about our government spying on us. We don't yet have to worry about our government killing us for speaking out. We've many flaws and social injustices, but none of those will be solved through communism. I don't know how to take power away from the rich and powerful. But I know that any system will be corrupt until that happens.
> 
> Why do you think that communism is better than capitalism? Do you believe that true communism is even a possibility? Do you think that the rich and powerful can ever be made to give up their power?


There will always be corruption, in any system of economics, while humans still live and breath. Always.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> --------------------------
> I wonder sometimes if you have any positive thoughts about anything Nebs. You have stated you HATE THE PRESIDENT on more than one occasion, you have no use for the Pope, you don't like pretty well everything that is said here.
> The Government is evil and out to get you. It is hard to remember anything happy or positive you have ever posted. I am glad I don't feel the way you do about what is happening. It is scary, but I still believe that good things are very possible. I don't believe your Government or Mine are inherently evil. I believe that some important things have to be changed especially the way money is so important in Politics there. And the lobbying and the lack of cooperation on the right with things he tried to do. You stated Buffett and Bill and Melinda Gates are not to be trusted, even though the world knows how much hey have contributed to helping children, education, world hunger and many many other things. YOu still don't trust them because I doubt you trust anyone.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree with you more, Shirley and thanks for sharing about your family. You are very kind.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> And so it should be. No one who is guilty of these things should be protected. They need to be in prison. Those children have to deal with what happened to them for the rest of their lives. Please also know that the majority of priests and nuns are good people but if they cover up for others or enable the crimes they need to be punished too.


I absolutely agree that the majority of priests and nuns are good people. The point I was making to KFN was that there are more pressing issues in the Church than the idea of communism.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Then why did you post it and why are you continuing to make hurtful comments? Your hole is just getting deeper and deeper and you just don't get it.


You're right. I don't get it! What hurtful comments am I continuing to make?

In my initial comment, I prefaced my statement with these words, "Warning: in this instance, when I speak of the catholic church, I am referring to the institution, not the individuals". What more could I have said to clarify that?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Hmm! If not Our Precious Purl, then I would certainly rouse myself from my canopy and have a few words to say.
> 
> It is always smart to be delicate about what one says about another person's religion. Even if we are not practicing, we all hold childhood memories of being with family for religious observations and for that reason alone, we should always tread softly.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Ever hear of Mother Teresa?


Again...I was responding to a sarcastic remark WITH a sarcastic remark!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You're right. I don't get it! What hurtful comments am I continuing to make?
> 
> In my initial comment, I prefaced my statement with these words, "Warning: in this instance, when I speak of the catholic church, I am referring to the institution, not the individuals". What more could I have said to clarify that?


Nebs, you could have left the subject alone. Talking about Religion can cause a lot of hurt. The Church is made up of people of all sorts. Some good some bad - it is something best left alone. Some of the things you said after your first statement were not very nice at all.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I explained to you that you criticize me when you criticize the Catholic church. Purl made a sarcastic remark concerning what you wrote which I don't believe was her agreeing with what you said. Also, our dear Purl, as we know is Jewish. If you came out and attacked her religion I am sure her reaction to you would be much the same as mine. Purl, if I am wrong please correct me.


Cheeky, I don't think you've ever been wrong. Okay, maybe once or twice.

I agree that being critical of an institution one knows very little about - especially one that people have a close relationship to - is either thoughtless or just plain wrong. As you pointed out, it's okay for you to criticize your own family or faith, but it's less acceptable from someone on the outside.

And the sarcastic remark I made was from shock at seeing such strong expressions of hatred out of the clear blue sky.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Unfortunately, the link I provided about the Royal Commission into child abuse in the Catholic Church tells some sad truths.


I certainly wasn't questioning your link. I have heard about that situation at home. I find that the links posted by our members are very true most of the time.

Generally speaking though , a lot of statements made colored towards the beliefs of the writer.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> That was an extreme order of nuns in Ireland. Many other orders have done much good. Generalization distorts the facts.


I apologize. That came out of my wondering whether there was anything to criticize in any order of nuns, and that's all I could come up with.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> ==========
> #1 -who says she shouldn't be offended? She has every right to be offended. It is the Church she was raised in that you are attacking. The Pope has said many things recently that showed he is trying to rectify some of the things -- yet you tell us he is evil and can't be believed. How do you know that???? I don't agree - he is a good man.
> 
> NEb, the difference is that she was a Catholic and knows better than anyone the good and bad things about her Church. It is insulting that someone comes and says things that is some cases are not true. I read your post and although I am not a Catholic, I know that I don't agree with many of the things you said in your post. You said you were not referring to the Catholic people, but then you made very negative statements about the Pope and the Church. It is fine for me to talk about the problems in my own Church but I sure won't stand for anyone insulting and making statements that are obviously one person's negative opinion, especially if I take exception to the statements made.
> ...


You continually accuse me of lecturing, yet it is you who does the lecturing. What is this, if not a lecture? Nowhere throughout this diatribe do you state that any of this is your opinion. Are you not to be held to the same standard that you hold me to? I say "IMO" til I'm blue in the face, but I see precious little of that, from anyone else! Why don't you lecture them?

Why is it that liberals are allowed to make whatever statements they choose, be as offensive as they want, and you stay silent? Cheekie has every right to stand up for what she believes, but so do I! I said nothing to offend Cheekie. I specifically omitted the catholic people from my remarks, and unless ANY of you want to defend the church's handling of pedophile priests or taking from the poor, to live in luxury, you shouldn't be offended. Go ahead! Any one of you! Defend them! Tell me I'm wrong!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Nuns have been found to be allegedly instrumental in assisting paedophile priests to commit their crimes. This has come out in the Royal Commission here. They would collect the children, one by one, take them to the offender and ensure no interruption. Nuns, in this case, are just as guilty.
> 
> Just want to add that the Royal Commission is also an investigation from which criminal charges will be sought.


Gee, I'll bet that no one will attack you for saying something bad about the nuns.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> --------------------------
> 
> I also believe that what is happening with the Party you plan on voting for is becoming inherently bad for your country. I believe that some of those who are running for the GOP ticket are not interested in your country but only in becoming President so that they can put their ideas into action, and to heck with what it does to hurt the United States, instead of trying to work together.
> 
> ...


First of all, how do you know who I plan on voting for? I haven't even decided if I'm going to vote!

Second of all, I speak my mind on politics all of the time. You just don't listen. I don't like either party! I think they're both owned by the same people.

Third, there's no such thing as a two sided conversation, with people who refuse to hear anything with which they disagree. A discussion is different than slamming people down.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Catholic schools are very different now. I sent my son to the senior Salesian College for four years and it was the best thing. He's 21 now and often says to me he's glad that he attended Salesian because of his acquired social skills (even though Salesian was an all boys school)! I remember at the time feeling very secure about the school because they genuinely put the boys best interests at the forefront. The teachers were both male and female and the Principal, a priest, was a lovely man and the kids loved him.


IMO, every school is as good as the people running it. There are good and bad, in every organization.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Nuns have been found to be allegedly instrumental in assisting paedophile priests to commit their crimes. This has come out in the Royal Commission here. They would collect the children, one by one, take them to the offender and ensure no interruption. Nuns, in this case, are just as guilty.
> 
> Just want to add that the Royal Commission is also an investigation from which criminal charges will be sought.


It hurts me to think that women religious would do such a thing to the children they're supposed to be caring for. I don't doubt there are some twisted sisters in the Church, but I hope this turns out to be a rare occurrence.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

JustBeachy said:


> There isn't as much talk about this but some protestants were raised to think of Catholicism as a sort of 'witchcraft" and "the Great Whore" and "The Whore of Babylon".
> 
> People who are prone to conspiracy theories tend to have this viewpoint.
> 
> Very offensive, I agree.


Who says? You? I've never heard this before. Is it alright for you to be offensive? I bet no one else will call you on it, because it's alright for liberals to be offensive.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Hmm! If not Our Precious Purl, then I would certainly rouse myself from my canopy and have a few words to say.
> 
> It is always smart to be delicate about what one says about another person's religion. Even if we are not practicing, we all hold childhood memories of being with family for religious observations and for that reason alone, we should always tread softly.


That would certainly be the socially acceptable thing to do. I see that sloths are very diplomatic, though topsy turvy.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Hmm! If not Our Precious Purl, then I would certainly rouse myself from my canopy and have a few words to say.
> 
> It is always smart to be delicate about what one says about another person's religion. Even if we are not practicing, we all hold childhood memories of being with family for religious observations and for that reason alone, we should always tread softly.


I know. You're right. But all of this started simply by asking others to comment on an article in which catholics stated, that the church was supporting communism. It all went downhill from there, as others commented on other offenses and I responded. It's turned out as it always does. Everyone else is free to say what they want.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

JustBeachy said:


> Well, either you're saying that they're too stupid to know they're part of an evil church, or you're saying they know it's evil, and they don't have the integrity to care and choose to ignore it.
> 
> Either way, it's nasty.
> 
> ...


Are you trying to tell me that there's a catholic alive, who doesn't know about the evil in their church? The answer is obvious.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
> 
> agreed -- I think everyone would agree with your statement. It is a difficult problem but I think the Pope will at least try to find a way.


I am not accusing the pope of anything! But will someone please tell me what the pope has done to deserve such adoration? Are words enough? I thought actions mattered. PLEASE! Tell me what he's done that makes him worthy.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> There will always be corruption, in any system of economics, while humans still live and breath. Always.


 :thumbup:


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> That would certainly be the socially acceptable thing to do. I see that sloths are very diplomatic, though topsy turvy.


Are Sloths topsy turvy in the Southern Hemisphere?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

JustBeachy said:


> There's something fishy about your story.'
> 
> I don't know of any church that has EVER charged a fee for catechism. The teachers are volunteers.
> 
> Maybe, some reading material would cost something. But I'm pretty sure those costs were covered by voluntary donations.


I don't know if "catechism" is the same as CCD or not. CCD took place on Wednesdays and parents had to pay for it. All of my catholic friends in Sioux Falls and Omaha, talked about this, so I know I'm not mistaken. Most of my friends "volunteered" to teach, so they wouldn't have to pay. There may or may not have been charitable funds available, but the friend I was referring to, would never accept charity of any kind. She's worked hard her whole life and never took a dime from anyone. And in case it slipped by you, the point was, that she was not allowed to teach a class, because her husband divorced her.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I absolutely agree that the majority of priests and nuns are good people. The point I was making to KFN was that there are more pressing issues in the Church than the idea of communism.


I understood that, but as soon as I started addressing those issues, I got attacked for doing so.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Nebs, you could have left the subject alone. Talking about Religion can cause a lot of hurt. The Church is made up of people of all sorts. Some good some bad - it is something best left alone. Some of the things you said after your first statement were not very nice at all.


So, I said some not nice things, about those who covered up the child abuse. Does anyone here, have anything nice to say about them?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Cheeky, I don't think you've ever been wrong. Okay, maybe once or twice.
> 
> I agree that being critical of an institution one knows very little about - especially one that people have a close relationship to - is either thoughtless or just plain wrong. As you pointed out, it's okay for you to criticize your own family or faith, but it's less acceptable from someone on the outside.
> 
> And the sarcastic remark I made was from shock at seeing such strong expressions of hatred out of the clear blue sky.


How was it "out of the clear blue sky", when someone else brought up the pedophilia and the cover up by the priesthood of the church? It wasn't " out of the clear blue sky". I was replying to a comment. And I DID hit "quote reply", even though I'm a conservative!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You're right. I don't get it! What hurtful comments am I continuing to make?
> 
> In my initial comment, I prefaced my statement with these words, "Warning: in this instance, when I speak of the catholic church, I am referring to the institution, not the individuals". What more could I have said to clarify that?


Whatever the warning said, it's hard for individuals to separate themselves from an institution they've been connected with all their lives.

You may not be continuing to make hurtful comments, but it was enough that you said



> I pray that the the innocent people who support this *putrid* institution, come to see that they are supporting *evil*. By their numbers and with their money, they give this *putrid rot*, power. That power needs to end. All power and glory should go to GOD, not *satan*.
> 
> I also believe that the catholic church is not the only church, who has *succumbed to evil*. Someday, these mighty men will stand before GOD, and he will say, I did not know you.


 Your language shocked me enough that I needed to make a joke about it. That was the sarcastic message you responded to. Don't you think your statement was offensive enough to require an apology, especially when so many women came to the defense of the Church? As long as you insisted that you had done no wrong, you were saying something offensive.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Are Sloths topsy turvy in the Southern Hemisphere?


˙uoıʇsǝnb poob ɐ s,ʇɐɥʇ


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> How was it "out of the clear blue sky", when someone else brought up the pedophilia and the cover up by the priesthood of the church? It wasn't " out of the clear blue sky". I was replying to a comment. And I DID hit "quote reply", even though I'm a conservative!


It was the hatred that came out of the clear blue sky, not the subject. See earlier post for the language.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Your language shocked me enough that I needed to make a joke about it. That was the sarcastic message you responded to. Don't you think your statement was offensive enough to require an apology, especially when so many women came to the defense of the Church? As long as you insisted that you had done no wrong, you were saying something offensive.


I understood that your message was sarcasm. Mine to you, was as well. I knew that my comments would be offensive to those I was referring to. I just don't see how people are offended by comments not directed at them.

So, I apologize to everyone who defends the pedophile priests and the people who live in luxury, off of the poor man's donations.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I understood that your message was sarcasm. Mine to you, was as well. I knew that my comments would be offensive to those I was referring to. I just don't see how people are offended by comments not directed at them.
> 
> So, I apologize to everyone who defends the pedophile priests and the people who live in luxury, off of the poor man's donations.


Do you really wonder why so many of us are offended by things you say? Your closing sentence is a perfect example of how you talk here - you can do no wrong.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

JustBeachy said:


> Pure Capitalism is as bad as Pure Communism.
> 
> I don't find it any more relieving to have the Koch brothers spying on us, or killing us for speaking out.
> 
> ...


You say that because ours is a representative government, we can use the law to change things. That sounds good, but who do they represent? They don't represent us. They represent the people who pay them off. So, how do you propose that we could end up with nice communism or nice socialism? The only way the 1% would allow communism, is if it were of the type they had in Russia. That way, they would own everything and we would own nothing. They'd love that. The 1% doesn't just control the US. They're using multinational corporations to try and control everything and everybody. So, if "our" representatives represent them, how can we change that?


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Do you really wonder why so many of us are offended by things you say? Your closing sentence is a perfect example of how you talk here - you can do no wrong.


I apologize more than all of you put together! Not one person here, has apologized for twisting my words, and trying to make them say something they didn't.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I understood that your message was sarcasm. Mine to you, was as well. I knew that my comments would be offensive to those I was referring to. I just don't see how people are offended by comments not directed at them.
> 
> So, I apologize to everyone who defends the pedophile priests and the people who live in luxury, off of the poor man's donations.


Take the sting out of the tail; that is not the apology that was called for and it is not worth the paper it was written on. An apology is still needed for the unnecessary language you used. I will not quote your words because I am sure that you know the words to which I refer. I do not see anyone here defending either pedophile priests or people who live in luxury off the poor man's donations.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Respectfully saying, this is no business of yours. Your friend has a beef and there are reasonable ways of addressing that. You have no background and no knowledge of the issues. You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but it is best to keep them out of serious discussions. IMHO



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I thought I'd made myself clear, in that my beef is with the hierarchy of the church. I've nothing against the catholic people.
> 
> You shared a story, so I'll share a story. My best friend who I've known since kindergarten, is a Catholic, like you're a Catholic. She's no longer practicing. She was pregnant with her son when her husband had an affair, got another woman pregnant and divorced her, through no choice of her own. Her son was born the day after the divorce was granted. She was an absolute wreck! They'd been trying to have a baby for five years and never did she imagine that he would do that to her. Her son was born with a physical deformity that required immediate surgery. She called her priest and asked him to baptize her son. He refused to baptize her son because she was divorced. He had his surgery and survived. She eventually found a priest who was willing to baptize her son but he couldn't or wouldn't do it in the church. So, if that's not evil, what is? The woman was not only abandoned by her husband, but she was abandoned by her church. She was branded a sinner through no fault of her own and her son was branded right along with her. She still tried to raise her son in the church! She was a single mother who never received a dime of child support. When it came time for him to attend CCD, she couldn't afford to pay for it. Those who taught the classes got to have their children attend free. So she signed up to teach a class, so that her son could receive Catholic instruction. But she was not allowed to teach a class, because she was divorced. Again, through no fault of her own.
> 
> So, it starts there. Add the way the church handled the pedophile priests and a few other things, and there's my beef!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> ˙uoıʇsǝnb poob ɐ s,ʇɐɥʇ


 :XD: :XD: :XD: No but Australians are in the southern hemisphere!


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> --------------------------
> 
> I also believe that what is happening with the Party you plan on voting for is becoming inherently bad for your country. I believe that some of those who are running for the GOP ticket are not interested in your country but only in becoming President so that they can put their ideas into action, and to heck with what it does to hurt the United States, instead of trying to work together.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Very interesting comments. I would be interested in these topics.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I also agree. England under King Henry VIII broke away from the Catholic Church in order to legitimize Henry's quest for a son. IMHO that's when the name-calling began.



JustBeachy said:


> There isn't as much talk about this but some protestants were raised to think of Catholicism as a sort of 'witchcraft" and "the Great Whore" and "The Whore of Babylon".
> 
> People who are prone to conspiracy theories tend to have this viewpoint.
> 
> Very offensive, I agree.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Nolo problemo. This discussion has been hijacked and I am tired of waiting for it to change to something with more substance. I'm out of here if it doesn't change today.



Poor Purl said:


> I apologize. That came out of my wondering whether there was anything to criticize in any order of nuns, and that's all I could come up with.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> That would certainly be the socially acceptable thing to do. I see that sloths are very diplomatic, though topsy turvy.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Maybe turvy topsy?



SQM said:


> Are Sloths topsy turvy in the Southern Hemisphere?


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> ˙uoıʇsǝnb poob ɐ s,ʇɐɥʇ


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I understood that your message was sarcasm. Mine to you, was as well. I knew that my comments would be offensive to those I was referring to. I just don't see how people are offended by comments not directed at them.
> 
> So, I apologize to everyone who defends the pedophile priests and the people who live in luxury, off of the poor man's donations.


 :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: If you're half as smart as you think you are, you'll stop.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Believe me. There is no need to twist your words. You do a fine job of repeating rumors and conspiracy theories thinking that they are true.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I apologize more than all of you put together! Not one person here, has apologized for twisting my words, and trying to make them say something they didn't.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you Beachy. I was looking for the same thing.



JustBeachy said:


> No, we're as sickened by pedophiles in the Catholic Church, as I am by
> Baptist clergy:
> 
> 25 MORE SHOCKING ARRESTS: Pastors Charged With Sex Crimes
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

JustBeachy said:


> Did you not understand what I wrote? No one here is interested in or proposing communism. I went through a long explanation as to why in communism and socialism are not interchangeable.
> 
> Yet you're doing it again anyway.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

damemary said:


> :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: If you're half as smart as you think you are, you'll stop.


Aye, there's the rub.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> ˙uoıʇsǝnb poob ɐ s,ʇɐɥʇ


Hey how did you do that?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Hey how did you do that?


.ǫnillɘƚ ɘd bluow ƚɒʜT


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I agree with you. The Catholic Church has always been and will always be a huge target for criticism. Much of it deserved and much attacks from those who hate it for a variety of reason founded and unfounded. I lived with the Sisters of Carondelet when I was a pregnant teenager and lived with them until the birth of my son. My parents paid for my care but no girl was turned away if they did not have money. All girls had to go to school on site and were taught by the nuns. All were treated with great kindness and love. No one was ever mistreated. We also had a clinic on site where OBGYN doctor would come in weekly for the girl's checkups. All babies were born in the Catholic hospital in the city. The nuns were some of the kindest most wonderful women I have ever known. All were either teachers, nurses or social workers. Most girls gave up their babies but I did not. You could not legally keep your baby unless you were 20 without the approval of your parents. Way back then it was expected that you had your baby, gave it up and went back to your life as if nothing had ever happened. Adoptive babies came back to the on site nursery until they were adopted. The few girls who kept their babies were allowed to help in the nursery so they could prepare for taking care of their own children. I was encouraged to go back and finish my college education by the nuns, which I did. I also held a job and raised my son on my own. My story turned out well. As my sister says I was ahead of my time. In England, the Anglican church started the Magdalene Laundries in 1758 and later in Scotland, Australia and Canada the Catholic church in Ireland followed suit and used the girls for free labor and the girls were treated terribly and their babies taken away from them. Sadly, their families happily sent their daughters off to these places as they were a disgrace to the family and they did not want to deal with them. Most girls never went back to their families and most died being kept as slaves in these places. The last of these places didn't close until the 1960's. There is an excellent movie called the Magdalene Sisters made in 2002 that is about this subject. A more recent movie that came out in 2013 called Philomena stars Judi Dench as a woman who had lived at one of the laundries and went back after the laundries had been closed to see if she could find her son who was given up for adoption. The Anglican church and the Catholic church could never have done this without the consent of their members who willingly and knowingly gave their daughters over to these places. Another movie called Oranges and Sunshine told the story of how the UK forcibly relocated poor children from the UK to Australia, New Zealand and Canada after WWII to the early 1970's to be used by companies and the church for free labor. The families were told their kids were adopted by good English families and the children were told their parents either had died or didn't want them back. These kids had to work for free and then keep working to pay for their own release. Not until 1986, when a social worker named Margaret Humphries had met adults who had been raised overseas and told her their stories of being sent abroad to live did someone start to investigate what had happened and a huge scandal was uncovered. I guess any institution left unchecked can commit horrible things.


Even one of the Miss Fisher books by Kerry Greenwood addressed the issue of pregnant girls doing enforced labor in the laundries. It was also made into an episode of the Miss Fisher Murder Mysteries we see on PBS in the US.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

JustBeachy said:


> Yes, catechism is CCD.
> 
> I don't know of any church charging anything for it,
> 
> As far as her situation, I don't know. A divorced person can fully take part in the church unless they're remarried or cohabiting with someone new. This sounds like more of a personal issue than it does with catholicism.


Hebrew School to educate a child from about 3rd grade through 8th grade and train for a bar or bas mitzvah can be quite expensive. It is about $900 a year per child for grades 3 through 7 plus about $500 for the bar or bas mitzvah training in my friend's synagogue. If a child needs additional tutoring that is private and extra. This is on top of annual dues of about $2500 a year to be members, with lower fees for single parents and for singles, seniors, and families without children. She says if people are really hard up they will get a break on the costs. Don't know how this reconciles with membership and religious school for other faiths.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Take the sting out of the tail; that is not the apology that was called for and it is not worth the paper it was written on. An apology is still needed for the unnecessary language you used. I will not quote your words because I am sure that you know the words to which I refer. I do not see anyone here defending either pedophile priests or people who live in luxury off the poor man's donations.


I agree that that statement was crap. and your statement was insulting . Catholics have just as hard a time with the problems in the Church as all of us do. However the Church is the oldest Church of any of the Christian Churches , and has done a huge amount of good, as well as the bad things.

We must accept the word of the Pope until you are proven correct. So far there is absolutely no reason to make the statement you did. All of us here on this thread think he brings a light to the Church and hope he is able to make some changes- it will be difficult for him as the hierarchy is still much the same as it always has been. They are the ones who have to agree to change and if this Pope is able to make changes possible then our feelings about him are correct and yours are wrong. We prefer to be positive rather than negative.

You put words and thoughts in our mouths knowing full well that our liberalism is based on what we believe - not what we are told to believe. You knew that from the reaction shown here about the Duggars. I don't see any mention at all of that subject on the right. (Huckabee- and we know his reaction)

Our strongest reason for being on here is because we wish those who are not as fortunate as others be able to receive help and not be stigmatized in peoples words or minds.We want individuals to be responsible for their own lives, not to be forced to follow laws enacted by people with agendas. We care - so to put words in our mouth and accuse someone who as far as most of us believe is an honest man- that he is not honest is your right but I will argue those kind of statements as will all of us. I know that we don't agree with you, and you know that but you still make statements without any proof knowing you are trying to stir.

We believe in hope and we try to do what we can to accept the problems but more importantly we try to be optimistic and try to help people be hopeful, not always negative- you believe in disaster and negative statements.

You might put the words" in my opinion" or "I believe, although I know a lot of you don't'"

which would change the fact that you are absolutely right in your opinion, even though many of us don't agree. This has been suggested to you quite often -but has been ignored.

enough from me. We have flogged this dead horse many times but some of us will not stand by and accept statements as truth when they haven't been proved and are just one person's opinion.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

JustBeachy said:


> No you said more than that.


much more -- read your post again, it was nasty and unkind - and who are you to state what the Pope means or that he is a liar or other insults you say which you KNOW we don't agree with.

Cheeky spoke her feelings and she had that right. Many of us understand her feelings that you are once again stating things that you state as abolute facts you know, even though you have no more idea than anyone else has what is the actual truth.

I have answered a lot of the posts on this subject and likely have repeated myself. I don't apologize as I feel very strongly that you state YOUR OPINIONS, regardless if they are true or not but never acknowledge that. You also don't care too much whether you can hurt someone or insult their feelings. You can say things that insult people and if anyone disagrees with you you usually answer with an attack. I am going to stop reading the posts here as it makes me angry and I have said my piece and stated my opinions. Shirley


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

On another controversial front, this just came across as a NY Times news alert an hour or so ago.

"Sepp Blatter, who led world soccers governing body for 17 years and had just won re-election for a fifth four-year term, resigned his position at a hastily called news conference in Zurich on Tuesday evening in the wake of an international corruption inquiry.

In a short speech delivered at the headquarters of FIFA, which oversees global soccer, Mr. Blatter said that FIFA needs a profound restructuring and that he had decided to step away from the organization for which he had worked in various positions for 40 years. Mr. Blatter, 79, who spoke in French, then referred to his recent re-election by FIFAs 209 member nations when he said, Although the members of FIFA have given me the new mandate, this mandate does not seem to be supported by everybody in the world of football.

Mr. Blatters resignation is not immediate; according to Domenico Scala, the independent chairman of FIFAs audit and compliance committee, who spoke to the news media after Mr. Blatter, a special meeting of FIFAs member nations will be called to elect a new president. According to FIFAs rules, there must be at least four months notice given to members for such a meeting, so Mr. Scala indicated that the likely window for a new election is from December 2015 to March 2016."

The entire article and reader comments are at http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/03/sports/soccer/sepp-blatter-to-resign-as-fifa-president.html for anyone who wants to read more.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> On another controversial front, this just came across as a NY Times news alert an hour or so ago.
> 
> "Sepp Blatter, who led world soccers governing body for 17 years and had just won re-election for a fifth four-year term, resigned his position at a hastily called news conference in Zurich on Tuesday evening in the wake of an international corruption inquiry.
> 
> ...


---------------------------------
I wonder what has really happened in the background. It was announced on our Canadian news that his 2nd in charge is now included with those who are being looked at for taking bribes. It didn't say he was but it left the feeling in my mind that he is feeling the heat. He also stated that he was not wanted as the President by many members of FIFA .
----------------------------------
I have been spending my day watching CBC news and the Truth and reconciliation report which FINALLY tells the terrible truths about what happened to thousands of children who went to Religious reservation schools where the main focus was to kill all the aboriginal beliefs, history and language as well as split up families.

Please google it and read about this -- it shows what can be done by a Government and a group of Churches to try to wipe out the Aboriginal beliefs and heritage and split up families - with much success. It is horrifying.

I think, from what I have heard that the same thing happened in the states. I know that much of what was spoken about also has happened to the people of color who are the descendants of slaves -
the children and grand children and which goes back even 
further than the 7 generations of the Aboriginals in Canada.

Interesting that all the Christian Churches were involved, not just one but Protestant (Baptist,Church of England, the United Church and other non Catholic Protestant Churches) and the Catholic Church as well.

An apology was given today by all Protestant Churches who were involved as well as the Catholic Church - so all Christians were involved. I know from experience that most people were not aware of the dreadful life they were subjected to. I didn't know how bad it was. I knew there were residential schools and some things have been publicized today the whole truth came out.

It was not a Government investigation as our Progressive Conservatives have not done that much over the years to help our First Nations people become part of our country with the same rights as all children and adults.They did some things but not enough.

It opened my eyes to many things and I am so thankful that the truth has come out. 6500 survivors have told their stories. It reminded me of the holocaust and the results of slavery. Children died,families torn apart and some families have had abuse for 7 generations because each child in all those generations grew up in a Residential school. They carry the treatment of their ancestors because they have never been accepted as 'ordinary citizens' and have never been given the respect that most Canadians and Americans take for granted.

I will never forget the statements by some of the survivors. One mother and grandmother - both survivors say that they didn't treat their children well, and carried on the feeling of being 'less' than other Canadians and were abusive because that was all they knew. both cried and asked their children to forgive them. However their children were also put into the Schools most of the schools were closed in the 60's .

It was cultural genocide and hopefully it will be acknowledged by all of us.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> On another controversial front, this just came across as a NY Times news alert an hour or so ago.
> 
> "Sepp Blatter, who led world soccers governing body for 17 years and had just won re-election for a fifth four-year term, resigned his position at a hastily called news conference in Zurich on Tuesday evening in the wake of an international corruption inquiry.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that information. I watched the news update last night, Tuesday night, at about 10 .00 p m and so many were coming out calling for his resignation. I honestly hoped he would do the honourable thing and step down. UK were calling for a boycott on the next two world cups if he did not step aside. I honestly thought he look so smug when it was announced that he had won the presidency again. I also understand that he, himself, will be under scrutiny for fraud investigations.

I have taped a Foreign Correspondent report on the conditions that the workers at the site of the 2022 cup in Qatar have to endure. It was aired on the ABC last night, Tuesday. They are virtually slave labour. I will watch it later today, Wednesday. It is now just after 4.00 am. I wonder if FIFA will strip Qatar of the 2022 cup? Interesting days ahead. Thanks again for posting.

This is a link to the Foreign Correspondent report

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-02/investigation-into-qatar-2022-reveals-exploitation-of-workers/6511660


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> ---------------------------------
> I wonder what has really happened in the background. It was announced on our Canadian news that his 2nd in charge is now included in those who are being looked at for taking bribes. It didn't say he was but it left the feeling in my mind that he is feeling the heat. He also stated that he was not wanted as the President by many members of FIFA .
> 
> I have been spending my day watching CBC news and the Truth and reconciliation report which FINALLY tells the terrible truths about what happened to thousands of children who went to Religious reservation schools where the main focus was to kill all the aboriginal beliefs, history and language as well as split up families.
> ...


Shirley, unfortunately it also happened here in Australia. The stolen generation. They did not take the full blood children but only those who had any white blood. The object was to breed out the Aboriginal people, the original inhabitants of our great land. The children were placed in missions and it was hoped that they would forget their Aboriginal culture and inheritance. They were stolen. Armed police arrived at the native settlements and forcefully took the children from the mothers. Even though it was discontinued in the late 1960s it is still causing problems with those who were forcefully removed. This action was taken by the Government here in Australia, not the religious organisations although the different religions established orphanages for the stolen children. Those children grew up without parents, they did not learn about their culture, their ceremonies or their religion from their parents, hence they had difficulty teaching their own children, who in turn had difficulty in teaching the next generation. The children also did not learn homemaking skills at their mother's knee and had difficulty in adjusting to life in white society. We are not only talking about children from the far north of the country, children whose parents worked on the large cattle station and who had little contact with white people, but we are talking about children who lived in the metropolitan area. Up to the 1960s we still had Aboriginal camps in the outer suburbs. There was also one only a few miles from the centre of Perth. The Government has apologised but it is not enough. Many parents spent the rest of their lives trying to trace their children and many children also spent years trying to trace their families. As a result many turned to alcohol. A lot of problems that the Aboriginal people face today is directly due to this forceful removal. The stolen generation is a shameful chapter in the history of Australia.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)




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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)




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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Shirley, unfortunately it also happened here in Australia. The stolen generation. They did not take the full blood children but only those who had any white blood. The object was to breed out the Aboriginal people, the original inhabitants of our great land. The children were placed in missions and it was hoped that they would forget their Aboriginal culture and inheritance. They were stolen. Armed police arrived at the native settlements and forcefully took the children from the mothers. Even though it was discontinued in the late 1960s it is still causing problems with those who were forcefully removed. This action was taken by the Government here in Australia, not the religious organisations although the different religions established orphanages for the stolen children. Those children grew up without parents, they did not learn about their culture, their ceremonies or their religion from their parents, hence they had difficulty teaching their own children, who in turn had difficulty in teaching the next generation. The children also did not learn homemaking skills at their mother's knee and had difficulty in adjusting to life in white society. We are not only talking about children from the far north of the country, children whose parents worked on the large cattle station and who had little contact with white people, but we are talking about children who lived in the metropolitan area. Up to the 1960s we still had Aboriginal camps in the outer suburbs. There was also one only a few miles from the centre of Perth. The Government has apologised but it is not enough. Many parents spent the rest of their lives trying to trace their children and many children also spent years trying to trace their families. As a result many turned to alcohol. A lot of problems that the Aboriginal people face today is directly due to this forceful removal. The stolen generation is a shameful chapter in the history of Australia.


The arrogance of those in power is both disgusting and frightening.

The native people of countries occupied by refugees from war, famine, religious persecution, etc. have been treated so callously after being outnumbered and conquered by the invading refugees as to boggle the mind. Too many of the incoming group seem to have forgotten what it was to be persecuted or to have had the frat boy hazer mentality that if it happened to them they had to pass it on rather than stop the injustices.

There is no way to make up for the mistreatment to the people who suffered. But can't we learn from the ugliness to have some empathy and compassion? We are really not a civilized society until we respect one anothers differences and stop using differences as a reason for murder and theft.

Sometimes I think if there is a G-d this planet is a social experiment gone virally wrong. Or the work of a sociopath.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> The arrogance of those in power is both disgusting and frightening.
> 
> The native people of countries occupied by refugees from war, famine, religious persecution, etc. have been treated so callously after being outnumbered and conquered by the invading refugees as to boggle the mind. Too many of the incoming group seem to have forgotten what it was to be persecuted or to have had the frat boy hazer mentality that if it happened to them they had to pass it on rather than stop the injustices.
> 
> ...


No, a psychopath.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Shirley, unfortunately it also happened here in Australia. The stolen generation. They did not take the full blood children but only those who had any white blood. The object was to breed out the Aboriginal people, the original inhabitants of our great land. The children were placed in missions and it was hoped that they would forget their Aboriginal culture and inheritance. They were stolen. Armed police arrived at the native settlements and forcefully took the children from the mothers. Even though it was discontinued in the late 1960s it is still causing problems with those who were forcefully removed. This action was taken by the Government here in Australia, not the religious organisations although the different religions established orphanages for the stolen children. Those children grew up without parents, they did not learn about their culture, their ceremonies or their religion from their parents, hence they had difficulty teaching their own children, who in turn had difficulty in teaching the next generation. The children also did not learn homemaking skills at their mother's knee and had difficulty in adjusting to life in white society. We are not only talking about children from the far north of the country, children whose parents worked on the large cattle station and who had little contact with white people, but we are talking about children who lived in the metropolitan area. Up to the 1960s we still had Aboriginal camps in the outer suburbs. There was also one only a few miles from the centre of Perth. The Government has apologised but it is not enough. Many parents spent the rest of their lives trying to trace their children and many children also spent years trying to trace their families. As a result many turned to alcohol. A lot of problems that the Aboriginal people face today is directly due to this forceful removal. The stolen generation is a shameful chapter in the history of Australia.


-----------------------------------
Thanks for your input Eve.

I knew from different gossip that it was not a happy situation but was not aware of the Residential schools until the last year or two of high school.I have no recollection of any Indian children in school then. Vancouver Island is a part of the Canadian Indian (first nations') history. Duncan is called the 
city of Totems, and they are found all over the city. Each one has a family story and was carved representing their stories and other meaningful things important to the carver.

There are reservations all around and in Duncan but still the reservations are not really respected by the general 'white' population. I have never stopped and wondered how many of the young Indian families come from Residential school histories -I know there were lots here. Today one of the first nations people who have fought for openness and truthfulness about what happened suggest that many of us who are willing would make a huge difference if we told The many first nations people who are part of our cities, and reservations close to white populations that it would help greatly if the ordinary Canadian would approach them and tell them that we are sorry for what was done to their tribes, heritage, language and beliefs . I intend to do that as often as I can. We saw a Parade on Saturday which was acknowledging the Truth and Reconciliation Report
and drawing attention to the problems that are still prevalent. I believe it is like slavery - it has to be acknowledged that it was a blight on our countries.

I knew that the aboriginals in Australia and New Zealand carry many of the same scars from their treatment and the results of that treatment.

When we lived in New Zealand my son had a good friend who was a son of one of the Maori Princesses and as I was interested in their history, Monu introduced me to his mother. I had done a lot of copper pictures of the chiefs and one of them was her Grandfather so I gave it to her. She and I became really good friends and she helped me make sure that my copper pictures were historically accurate in the dress, moko ( the tattoos on their faces) and that the pictures of their tribal marae's were accurate. She also took me to their Government house and accepted some of my maori copper pictures, which was very unusual. I wonder where they are. The told me that they would be kept as they were historically accurate. They also discussed their situation as second class citizens so it appears that all three of our countries have much the same history of ill treatment of the Aboriginal peoples of all our countries. I understand that it happens in the US too. Sad indeed.
========
Here is the link to today's report-- it is worth a read in my opinion.
*http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/atoning-for-cultural-genocide-truth-and-reconciliation-commission-lays-out-its-blueprint*
=========
Here is one of my copper tooled pictures of a Maori Chieftain
I was always so glad that my work was authentic and was accepted for those reasons.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> -----------------------------------
> Thanks for your input Eve.
> 
> I knew from different gossip that it was not a happy situation but was not aware of the Residential schools until the last year or two of high school. have no recollection of any Indian children in school then. Vancouver Island is a part of the Canadian Indian (first nations) history. Duncan is called the
> ...


Shirley, you were indeed lucky to have a Maori friend who could instruct you in the correct Moko and dress of the Chieftains. I love the picture of the copper work. We have many Maoris living near us and I find they have a great sense of humour. They make great friends. We also have many Aboriginals living in my suburb; the local high school has about 780 students. About 140 of those are Indigenous, meaning that Swan View has the highest Indigenous population of any metropolitan government school in Western Australia. Nearly 18% of the students are Indigenous. The Indigenous Aboriginals make up approximately 2.5% of the Australian population. In 2003 only about 12% of the Aboriginal Students went on to year 12, now it is about 80% so we are achieving something good in my area.

It seems that the indigenous people all over the world suffer so badly at the hands of invaders. My family come Wales and Ireland and both of those countries suffered dreadfully under the English. The Welsh were forbidden to speak their native language and as a result the Welsh language almost died out. Look at the poor Irish farmers on their small farms. The farms were taken over by the absentee English landlords and the Irish farmers run off their land. Their cottages were either demolished or used as shed for the English Landlord to house his sheep. The cottages were small but they were home. The Scots were forbidden the wearing of their clan tartans. We see the problems facing the Tibetans in their homeland. Needless suffering is all around us but many do not understand.
.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> Believe me. There is no need to twist your words. You do a fine job of repeating rumors and conspiracy theories thinking that they are true.


This is a quote -- why should we apologize to you?

*So, I apologize to everyone who defends the pedophile priests and the people who live in luxury, off of the poor man's donations*.

It was insulting to all of us and you knew it when you wrote it. You twist everything when you are angry. I am not interested in reading any more of this trash. A real apology should be given - but not one like the insult above. I don't expect it but you have overstepped as far as I am concerned. I am really angry and I imagine that most of those on this thread are angry too. It was uncalled for.Best to let it go as you are making it worse and worse and words like the above are remembered by those on the receiving end of your statements.

How dare you accuse us of the crap in that statement? You know better but you are your own worst enemy- if anyone calls you on your words you carry it further until there is no way anyone can forget what you say.

So I would suggest you stop before you go any further.

It would be nicer though if you gave a real apology instead of including an insult that antagonizes all of us.

I am out of here -- I have had too much today - between your nastiness,

and what I have learned about the treatment by my Government and all our Churches of those who were taken from their families and punished if they spoke in their own language and we beaten if they didn't change their thoughts and if they ever even mentioned their parents. They were not allowed to speak their own names or their family names.
This went on for SEVEN GENERATIONS - no wonder the self respect has been stolen from most of our aboriginal people.

I am sickened by everything that has happened today on this specific thread and also what I heard in 7 hours of discussion about what has happened and what was done by Canadian Churches at the behest of our Government to the 
First nations people and the Inuit people in the north and east of our Country. I am going to join and do as much as I can to start showing them that I apologize and understand what was done to them. I just hope others will do the same. Our Government has not agreed to follow the suggestions and say they have done a lot - which is a crock.

I think Mr. Harper may just have lost the next Federal election, at least I hope so. Tom Mulcair NDP opposition leader has always backed this study and promised to immediate start following the suggestions by the Truth and Reconciliation report. You can imagine who I will be voting for Federally.
Sorry everyone. I am going to knit.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> .ǫnillɘƚ ɘd bluow ƚɒʜT


Come on. Can anyone do it using a regular keyboard? Do I have to be upside down? Pm me if the magician does not want everyone to know.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Come on. Can anyone do it using a regular keyboard? Do I have to be upside down? Pm me if the magician does not want everyone to know.


¡ʞuıl sıɥʇ oʇuo ʞɔılɔ ʇsnɾ ¡ɥʇols ɹɐǝp ʎsɐǝ s,ʇı

http://www.typeupsidedown.com/


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> ¡ʞuıl sıɥʇ oʇuo ʞɔılɔ ʇsnɾ ¡ɥʇols ɹɐǝp ʎsɐǝ s,ʇı
> 
> http://www.typeupsidedown.com/


Thanks. Now my mind is at rest. Does this work in Upside Land?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

It's been betwixt and between here over the past few days what with the birth of the quads and our excitement and congrats for KFN and then the Catholic Church discussion that has gone on, and on, and on.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Thanks. Now my mind is at rest. Does this work in Upside Land?


Nah! I had to go to a U.S. site! :XD:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I understood that, but as soon as I started addressing those issues, I got attacked for doing so.


you don't address the issues - 'address'-the issues, usually with insults and flat statements that are only partly true but you paint everyone with the same brush.

Who are you to state that the Catholic Church who has thousands of very kind, religious people is putrid. I realize you say the people who run the Church are the ones you are talking about but it doesn't cut it with me. Certainly there have been some bad things done in the Church and hopefully the new Pope will be able to start at least dealing with those problems. I think he will try - which is more than others have really done. It is not for me to Judge who is innocent and who is guilty. You must feel that you have the right to put everyone in the Church hierarchy in the same box (that they are evil) (your words).

there have been bad things done in most of the Churches in the name of religion if the truth be known. I have spent the day hearing about Protestant, Catholic churches who abused Canadian Citizens for 7 generations. Not all those who belong to the Church feel it is a putrid whatever you called it. I am not a Catholic and I disagree with you. It is time you start looking for some positive things to write about rather than spend your life looking for the negatives. We have received much more negativity than positive ideas. Most of your posts are complaints about just about everything.

How about answer my questions about your opinion of those running for the Party you agree with or even those you disagree with? It would be productive and you might convince us of some of your ideas -Just remember we are not in agreement with the GOP ideas, but we are open for your opinions. There are people here who have acknowledged they are not Hillary fans. I have not seen anyone including you even discuss your Political people who are running for President. Please give your honest opinion, and forget a about the negatives you have talked about today, and the name calling.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> you don't address the issues - 'address'-the issues, usually with insults and flat statements that are only partly true but you paint everyone with the same brush.
> 
> Who are you to state that the Catholic Church who has thousands of very kind, religious people is putrid. I realize you say the people who run the Church are the ones you are talking about but it doesn't cut it with me. Certainly there have been some bad things done in the Church and hopefully the new Pope will be able to start at least dealing with those problems. I think he will try - which is more than others have really done. It is not for me to Judge who is innocent and who is guilty. You must feel that you have the right to put everyone in the Church hierarchy in the same box (that they are evil) (your words).
> 
> ...


Shirley - you are beating the dead horse that you mentioned in a previous post. Nebs has been flayed enough. Let us please follow your own directives and let her words die. MoveOn if you are liberal.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> ¡ʞuıl sıɥʇ oʇuo ʞɔılɔ ʇsnɾ ¡ɥʇols ɹɐǝp ʎsɐǝ s,ʇı
> 
> http://www.typeupsidedown.com/


¡ʎsɐǝ sɐʍ ʇɐɥʇ 'ʍoʍ


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

I apologize to all of you. Including KFN - it has been a hard day but I realize I repeated myself. However, I don't apologize for not accepting the statement I highlighted in red on this page.

It has been an upsetting day, but that has not been the only reason I was upset.

I would still really like it if Nebs would give her opinion about those running for the GOP. it is entirely up to her.

SQM I would would ask that if you have a problem with my posts that you contact me by pm and we can sort it out. I suggested that those on this thread agreed with me -- obviously that is not the case. Just one more thing. I will make sure I don't speak for others in the future. I felt strongly that she insulted all of us who believe in kindness and liberal opinions.

This was the statement I took offense to: It is just not the truth and I personally believe that none of us would say that about anyone. I took it as a sarcastic apology and I still believe that. If you are saying this is a dead horse, we will have to disagree.

Once again, I do apologize to those who don't agree with me answering these types of statements - however I can't promise I can let them go in the future.

Once again- the following was why I carried on with my posts. I can't apologize for calling her on this statement. It is not something that ANYONE OF US does. It is against everything we believe.

So, I apologize to everyone who defends the pedophile priests and the people who live in luxury, off of the poor man's donations.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I apologize to all of you. Including KFN - it has been a hard day but I realize I repeated myself. However, I don't apologize for not accepting the statement I highlighted in red on this page.
> 
> It has been an upsetting day, but that has not been the only reason I was upset.
> 
> ...


There is no need for apologies from you, Shirley. I can certainly see why some people are upset. An apology from KFN loaded with venom means nothing.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> There is no need for apologies from you, Shirley. I can certainly see why some people are upset.


Thanks Bratty -- I have been told I overstep quite a few times recently and I am not willing to accept it - however I do know that I have repeated myself when I am upset. That I do apologize for.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Thanks Bratty -- I have been told I overstep quite a few times recently and I am not willing to accept it - however I do know that I have repeated myself when I am upset. That I do apologize for.


We all do it on occasion. It's all good.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> Shirley - you are beating the dead horse that you mentioned in a previous post. Nebs has been flayed enough. Let us please follow your own directives and let her words die. MoveOn if you are liberal.


SQM -

I am a liberal and you know it.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> ¡ʞuıl sıɥʇ oʇuo ʞɔılɔ ʇsnɾ ¡ɥʇols ɹɐǝp ʎsɐǝ s,ʇı
> 
> http://www.typeupsidedown.com/


Too cool. Thanks.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Did you all see the pics of Caitlyn Jenner? Wow, she's a knock out! I can't believe she started out as Bruce Jenner.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> It's been betwixt and between here over the past few days what with the birth of the quads and our excitement and congrats for KFN and then the Catholic Church discussion that has gone on, and on, and on.


It has stopped now Wombat. I apologize for speaking my truth but I can't promise that it won't happen again. My feelings about KFN's grand babies will never change.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Did you all see the pics of Caitlyn Jenner? Wow, she's knock out!


I think she is very happy and at peace with her choices now. I hope so.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Did you all see the pics of Caitlyn Jenner? Wow, she's a knock out! I can't believe she started out as Bruce Jenner.


Caitlin is so much better looking than Bruce. Probably part of that is she is now comfortable in her own skin.

I am so happy for her that her extended family is supportive. Her being as open about her situation certainly should help other transgender people emotionally as well as socially.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Caitlin is so much better looking than Bruce. Probably part of that is she is now comfortable in her own skin.
> 
> I am so happy for her that her extended family is supportive. Her being as open about her situation certainly should help other transgender people emotionally as well as socially.


I agree, Marilyn.  I liked that she asked people not to concentrate on her body, but instead to look to her heart.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I guess Cruz and Graham missed the boat.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

And who would be their "Snow White"? Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachmann - or maybe Carly Fiorino?



BrattyPatty said:


> I guess Cruz and Graham missed the boat.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> There is no need for apologies from you, Shirley. I can certainly see why some people are upset. An apology from KFN loaded with venom means nothing.


exactly


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> And who would be their "Snow White"? Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachmann - or maybe Carly Fiorino?


Bachmann is caught up in her "rapture." I would have to say Palin.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Did you all see the pics of Caitlyn Jenner? Wow, she's a knock out! I can't believe she started out as Bruce Jenner.


With Annie Liebowitz taking pics, we would all be knockouts.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Did you all see the pics of Caitlyn Jenner? Wow, she's a knock out! I can't believe she started out as Bruce Jenner.


BrattyPatty
She had some fabulous Cosmetic Surgeons and I hope that she now has a happy less stressful Life. I admire her openness , it will no doubt give hope to others. Everyone deserves a happy Life.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Even one of the Miss Fisher books by Kerry Greenwood addressed the issue of pregnant girls doing enforced labor in the laundries. It was also made into an episode of the Miss Fisher Murder Mysteries we see on PBS in the US.


MarilynKnits
pregnant Girls having been ousted by their Families were abused by the Nuns by having to do Laundry under the most horrible conditions in many parts of the World. Some Nuns were worse than horrid Dictators.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Come on. Can anyone do it using a regular keyboard? Do I have to be upside down? Pm me if the magician does not want everyone to know.


Anyone who knows how to use Google can do it, as long as she can copy and paste.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Anyone who knows how to use Google can do it, as long as she can copy and paste.


Wombat sent me the link. I guess I would never think about such a site but it does seem like fun.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> ¡ʞuıl sıɥʇ oʇuo ʞɔılɔ ʇsnɾ ¡ɥʇols ɹɐǝp ʎsɐǝ s,ʇı
> 
> http://www.typeupsidedown.com/


Wow, even wombats can figure it out! Sloths not so much.

But that's because you live in an upside-down part of the planet, right?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I guess Cruz and Graham missed the boat.


It's just brilliant, Patty. But who is Derp?


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Wombat sent me the link. I guess I would never think about such a site but it does seem like fun.


Speaking of odd websites, did you know there's one that lists items you can buy on Amazon to bring your cost up to $35? For instance, if the stuff you want comes to $33.07, you can get free shipping by looking up what on Amazon costs $1.93. Maybe a packet of 6 metal washers (use them as ring markers).

I wish I could remember the name of this site. It's one of the more useful things on the internet.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It's just brilliant, Patty. But who is Derp?


Jeb Bush, PP. Why they chose "Derp" I'll never know. Maybe a shortened name like "Doc?"


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Jeb Bush, PP. Why they chose "Derp" I'll never know. Maybe a shortened name like "Doc?"


It doesn't look like Jeb to me, but it must be. Who else is there?

I just looked up Derp, and it's very appropriate:

*derp face*
A facial expression reminiscent of one who is retarded. It often involves eyes turned in different directions and a stupid smile.
In reply to that idiotic comment, I posted a picture of a retarded facial expression with the caption "This is my derp face."


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> It doesn't look like Jeb to me, but it must be. Who else is there?
> 
> I just looked up Derp, and it's very appropriate:
> 
> ...


Who else could it be? Any member of the GOP! It looks like there may be as many as 20 running on the GOP ticket by Saturday. 
LOL! 
I heard on the news tonight that he is not leading the polls in Florida.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> MarilynKnits
> pregnant Girls having been ousted by their Families were abused by the Nuns by having to do Laundry under the most horrible conditions in many parts of the World. Some Nuns were worse than horrid Dictators.


Huck, I have met a few of those nuns while attending Catholic school from kindergarten through high school. But there were was one that left an imprint on my heart. She helped me through a very difficult time when my parents dropped the "divorce bomb" on us. It wasn't through prayer, but through friendship.
The first day I met her, the PE teacher caught my best friend and I up in the attic smoking. It was 110 degrees the first day of the 9th grade. We decided it was too hot to run a mile on the track. We had found trunks full of costumes that the show girls donated to the drama department. So, there we were with G strings, pasties, head dresses and beads over our PE uniforms being marched down the center walkway of the school to her office. She took one look at us and burst out laughing. "I am going to have fun for the next 4 years with you girls." We made sure she did! She was a wonderful woman with a very dry sense of humor, and a heart the size of Montana. Most of the nuns I had were K through 8 and I was scared to death of everyone of them. Monsters!
9 thru 12 was a mixture of lay teachers, brothers, and priests and only 2 nuns.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Huck, I have met a few of those nuns while attending Catholic school from kindergarten through high school. But there were was one that left an imprint on my heart. She helped me through a very difficult time when my parents dropped the "divorce bomb" on us. It wasn't through prayer, but through friendship.
> The first day I met her, the PE teacher caught my best friend and I up in the attic smoking. It was 110 degrees the first day of the 9th grade. We decided it was too hot to run a mile on the track. We had found trunks full of costumes that the show girls donated to the drama department. So, there we were with G strings, pasties, head dresses and beads over our PE uniforms being marched down the center walkway of the school to her office. She took one look at us and burst out laughing. "I am going to have a fun for the next 4 years with you girls." We made sure she did! She was a wonderful woman with a very dry sense of humor, and a heart the size of Montana. Most of the nuns I had were K through 8. 9 thru 12 was a mixture of lay teachers, brothers, and priests and only 2 nuns.


Totally loved your story and knowing that you were outrageous forever. Besos.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

¿&#477;&#647;s&#592;d pu&#592; &#654;do&#596; u&#592;&#596; &#305; &#477;q&#654;&#592;&#623; &#623;&#623;&#613; -&#647;sod &#592; o&#647; &#647;&#305; &#633;&#477;&#607;su&#592;&#633;&#647; u&#592;&#596; &#305; &#653;o&#613; &#477;&#633;ns &#647;ou &#623;&#592; &#305; - &#387;u&#305;&#647;s&#477;&#633;&#477;&#647;u&#305; s&#305; s&#305;&#613;&#647;


yep, that is how I can transfer it. interesting.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

¡s&#477;&#647;&#305;s &#647;s&#477;q &#477;&#613;&#647; spu&#305;&#607; l&#633;nd ¿&#647;&#305; &#647;,us&#305; &#654;s&#592;&#477; &#654;&#647;&#647;&#477;&#633;d


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

&#729;&#477;&#633;ns &#633;o&#607; s&#305; &#647;&#592;&#613;&#647; &#1563;pu&#305;&#623; p&#477;l&#592;&#652;&#305;&#633;un u&#592; s&#592;&#613; l&#633;nd &#729;spu&#477;&#305;&#633;&#607; &#477;&#623;&#305;&#647; l&#592;&#477;&#633; &#654;&#623; &#607;o &#477;&#623;os o&#647; s&#305;&#613;&#647; pu&#477;s &#653;ou ll&#305;&#653; &#305;


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Wow, even wombats can figure it out! Sloths not so much.
> 
> But that's because you live in an upside-down part of the planet, right?


 :XD: Sloth asked me whether the upside-down text would work in Australia and I advised that no, it doesn't and I had to go to a U.S. site!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Jeb Bush, PP. Why they chose "Derp" I'll never know. Maybe a shortened name like "Doc?"


Brat, my facial tic has started up again with that Helen Hunt avatar of yours! :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Brat, my facial tic has started up again with that Helen Hunt avatar of yours! :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I said I would use it until he is eliminated from the race for president.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Who else could it be? Any member of the GOP! It looks like there may be as many as 20 running on the GOP ticket by Saturday.
> LOL!
> I heard on the news tonight that he is not leading the polls in Florida.


Shucks.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> Thanks. Now my mind is at rest. Does this work in Upside Land?


No. we just type normally and then have to reverse if so you in the northern hemisphere can read it. It is all about the blood rushing to our heads and nourishing our brains whereas in the northern hemisphere the blood rushes to your feet and gives you swollen feet. Honestly, I thought that was why you hung upside down in your tree, so you could be as smart as us Aussies. :XD: :XD: :XD:   :wink:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> No. we just type normally and then have to reverse if so you in the northern hemisphere can read it. It is all about the blood rushing to our heads and nourishing our brains whereas in the northern hemisphere the blood rushes to your feet and gives you swollen feet. Honestly, I thought that was why you hung upside down in your tree, so you could be as smart as us Aussies. :XD: :XD: :XD:   :wink:


Good one, Eve!


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> We all do it on occasion. It's all good.


I honestly believe that it is necessary at times. I think that sometimes silence is taken as agreement when in fact we do not agree. Therefore I express my agreement with your sentiment that we all do it on occasion, but add that sometimes it is necessary. :thumbup:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I honestly believe that it is necessary at times. I think that sometimes silence is taken as agreement when in fact we do not agree. Therefore I express my agreement with your sentiment that we all do it on occasion, but add that sometimes it is necessary. :thumbup:


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

JustBeachy said:


> CCD is not a Catholic school. Typically what happens is that once a week Catholic kids go to their church's basement, and volunteer parents teach from a workbook. It's religious classes for kids that go to public school.
> 
> Eventually, it prepares them for First holy communion and Confirmation.
> 
> ...


For the first 5 years when my two kids went to CCD it was free. But the 6th year it was 45.00 per child for the year. 
What got me was when it came to confirmation time, they made both of the parents and child attend the classes for 2 months once a week. Myself and many other parents were rather ticked about this. We were already confirmed. It was up to them to get the kids ready. We protested to the head priest ( I forgot what they were called). The real stinker was that they were charging the parents for this as well as the kids. The parents won that battle. All we did was sit and watch the kids being instructed on becoming an adult in the eyes of the church.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> No. we just type normally and then have to reverse if so you in the northern hemisphere can read it. It is all about the blood rushing to our heads and nourishing our brains whereas in the northern hemisphere the blood rushes to your feet and gives you swollen feet. Honestly, I thought that was why you hung upside down in your tree, so you could be as smart as us Aussies. :XD: :XD: :XD:   :wink:


I do have Aussie Envy, EveeeM.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

JustBeachy said:


> I really don't think you should be yelling someone who may have been hurt or bothered by someone else's bigoted words to 'Move On".
> 
> Sometimes people need to stick up for themselves and what they care about. Would you like it if people told you to 'Move On" from defending Israel from some anti-semetic remarks?


I was only reminding 1234 of what she had said in a previous post that the issue was a dead horse. Yet she kept rehashing it. In the past she has gotten very upset and sick by this sort of thing. I was only reminding her of her own words. Look back at the posts, something you are quite excellent at and see for yourself. I was being agreeable. If it embarrassed her I am sorry for that. Next time I will PM. My MoveOn comment was my using the liberal website name. ( Why do I feel compelled to explain myself to you?)


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> I do have Aussie Envy, EveeeM.


Come and join us on the 'custard' thread, we are eating junket at the moment.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Come and join us on the 'custard' thread, we are eating junket at the moment.


Where is the 'custard' thread? Wouldn't mind a bowl of junket with nutmeg sprinkled over. 

I agree with your theory Eve, about the blood rushing to heads in the south and to feet into north. Didn't they teach that to us at school?


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Where is the 'custard' thread? Wouldn't mind a bowl of junket with nutmeg sprinkled over.
> 
> I agree with your theory Eve, about the blood rushing to heads in the south and to feet into north. Didn't they teach that to us at school?


http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-340925-11.html#7425580

:XD: :XD: :XD:

I bought some junket tablets last night from Coles here in Swan View but it seems that it may not be available over there in the big smoke.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Who else could it be? Any member of the GOP! It looks like there may be as many as 20 running on the GOP ticket by Saturday.
> LOL!
> I heard on the news tonight that he is not leading the polls in Florida.


When a poll (not sure which, Eagleton? maybe) has "undecided" getting the most votes, that party is in deep trouble. Maybe any of us registered to be eligible to vote in the republican primary can write in Bernie Sanders :twisted:


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

JustBeachy said:


> CCD is not a Catholic school. Typically what happens is that once a week Catholic kids go to their church's basement, and volunteer parents teach from a workbook. It's religious classes for kids that go to public school.
> 
> Eventually, it prepares them for First holy communion and Confirmation.
> 
> ...


Hebrew School at a temple or synagogue is the same thing for kids who go to public school, not a yeshiva. The Conservative kids who did not go to Solomon Schechter schools went once or twice a week to Hebrew School at the synagogue where they were taught to read Hebrew and learned the history and tenets of the religion. Teachers are usually young women who are seniors or recent graduates of Orthodox yeshivas or the nearest Solomon Schechter. They are paid a pittance, but they are paid. Many of the parents are not knowledgeable enough to teach their children what they need to know for bar or bas mitzvah, particularly reading Hebrew. Some of the more interested kids even learn to understand what they are reading. The school is part of the fund raising structure of the congregation.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I guess Cruz and Graham missed the boat.


BrattyPatty
the newest Disney Team is adorable. They fit right in to the Circus part.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Huck, I have met a few of those nuns while attending Catholic school from kindergarten through high school. But there were was one that left an imprint on my heart. She helped me through a very difficult time when my parents dropped the "divorce bomb" on us. It wasn't through prayer, but through friendship.
> The first day I met her, the PE teacher caught my best friend and I up in the attic smoking. It was 110 degrees the first day of the 9th grade. We decided it was too hot to run a mile on the track. We had found trunks full of costumes that the show girls donated to the drama department. So, there we were with G strings, pasties, head dresses and beads over our PE uniforms being marched down the center walkway of the school to her office. She took one look at us and burst out laughing. "I am going to have fun for the next 4 years with you girls." We made sure she did! She was a wonderful woman with a very dry sense of humor, and a heart the size of Montana. Most of the nuns I had were K through 8 and I was scared to death of everyone of them. Monsters!
> 9 thru 12 was a mixture of lay teachers, brothers, and priests and only 2 nuns.


BrattyPatty
Your story is one like I hear over and over again. So sad. The nice Nuns seemed to be the exception. Perhaps it was their own frustrations that made them so bitter.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

JustBeachy said:


> I don't think you need to apologize. If anything, I'm sorry you were made to feel you should.


Do you really believe that, given how she expressed her "apology," she'd been made to feel she should apologize?

It was just another occasion to badmouth the Church and people who feel strongly in favor of Catholics.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> When a poll (not sure which, Eagleton? maybe) has "undecided" getting the most votes, that party is in deep trouble. Maybe any of us registered to be eligible to vote in the republican primary can write in Bernie Sanders :twisted:


Funny idea, and a great one, too.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Funny idea, and a great one, too.


Yeah, almost makes sense registering as a repub to be able to


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> No. we just type normally and then have to reverse if so you in the northern hemisphere can read it. It is all about the blood rushing to our heads and nourishing our brains whereas in the northern hemisphere the blood rushes to your feet and gives you swollen feet. Honestly, I thought that was why you hung upside down in your tree, so you could be as smart as us Aussies. :XD: :XD: :XD:   :wink:


Nice to have that information. Maybe that is why my feet sometimes hurt - but then my head does too! Something wrong somewhere!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

JustBeachy said:


> I don't think you need to apologize. If anything, I'm sorry you were made to feel you should.


Thank you for your support. I am not apologizing for what I posted, except that I repeated myself when I answered two posts by others. So I guess I did flog a dead horse. So be it.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Do you really believe that, given how she expressed her "apology," she'd been made to feel she should apologize?
> 
> It was just another occasion to badmouth the Church and people who feel strongly in favor of Catholics.


I agree Purl.Just to clarify - I am not a Catholic and I am just as aware as anyone of the things that happened in the Church. It was her wording and what she said in her 'apology' that bothered me a lot. It still does. I believe that the Catholic Church is very important to a lot of good people, who are well aware of the problems. Her words would be insulting and hurtful to any Catholic in my opinion.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> I was only reminding 1234 of what she had said in a previous post that the issue was a dead horse. Yet she kept rehashing it. In the past she has gotten very upset and sick by this sort of thing. I was only reminding her of her own words. Look back at the posts, something you are quite excellent at and see for yourself. I was being agreeable. If it embarrassed her I am sorry for that. Next time I will PM. My MoveOn comment was my using the liberal website name. ( Why do I feel compelled to explain myself to you?)


I didn't find your statements agreeable. 
You might have thought I would be happy to be scolded, you were incorrect. In future, it might be best to avoid reading my posts. Scolding twice or three times,is enough. I will continue to post what I wish to post as do all of us.

(Why do I feel compelled to explain myself to you)???


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-340925-11.html#7425580
> 
> :XD: :XD: :XD:
> 
> I bought some junket tablets last night from Coles here in Swan View but it seems that it may not be available over there in the big smoke.


I saw that custard at its beginning. However, although it sounds delicious, I would have trouble eating it right now. Maybe custard made with eggs, heavy cream, almond or flax milk, maybe a little goat milk, and stevia, and vanilla would work okay, but otherwise not. But I LOVE pudding of any sort. Can we have some pudding that I can eat now?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> I didn't find your statements agreeable.
> You might have thought I would be happy to be scolded, you were incorrect. In future, it might be best to avoid reading my posts. Scolding twice or three times,is enough. I will continue to post what I wish to post as do all of us.
> 
> (Why do I feel compelled to explain myself to you)???


You owe me nothing and nor have I ever asked you for anything. You were perseverating on what Nebs wrote and it was getting to be too much, by your own admission. And it seems like it is happening again today. It is beginning to feel like cruelty. Many of us took umbrage with Nebs' post and said so. You were not the only one - however most got it out of their system with a post or two. When you harp, rest assured I skip your posts. They are unpleasant to read.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

JustBeachy said:


> Eh, you were expressing how you feel and you might've repeated the argument but, you approached it from a different angle.
> 
> I dunno, sometimes I like to 'rehash' an argument because I don't feel my original semantics were clear enough, and when I reword an argument, it becomes distilled.
> 
> ...


Thank you for standing up for Shirley. I have always found her to be a gentle and understanding soul and I am proud to call her my friend. She is a true Christian. I also strongly agree with your sentiment that it is sometimes helps to get your frustrations out and to express yourself. :thumbup:


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

JustBeachy said:


> I think I'm confused. I'm saying I'm sorry 1234 felt she needed to apologize. I don't think she did anything wrong.


Then I'm the confused one. I thought you were telling Nebraska she needn't apologize.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

JustBeachy said:


> I really don't think you should be yelling someone who may have been hurt or bothered by someone else's bigoted words to 'Move On".
> 
> Sometimes people need to stick up for themselves and what they care about. Would you like it if people told you to 'Move On" from defending Israel from some anti-semetic remarks?


I'm so glad you feel this way, because I'm about to stick up for myself! I sure hope that you didn't mean it to apply, only to people with whom you agree. After all, what's good for the goose, is good for the gander.

First of all, I am not going to apologize for stating how I feel! You ALL, can agree or disagree, I don't care! I categorically stated that I was NOT referring to the many good catholic people, but to the corrupt institution. I think it's very hypocritical of liberals to be offended, when I called them, as I see them. Liberals claim to support the victims. They talk, like they care about the little guy. And yet, here's the catholic church, probably the world's biggest and richest corporation EVER, protecting pedophiles who have abused the most innocent of us all, and you're defending them! You're outraged by other corporations robbing the poor and being greedy, but not the catholic church. You don't sound like liberals to me! Why aren't you demanding that they be called upon to answer for their crimes against the innocent. You go on and on against me and then, you all share more horror stories about the church. It's hypocritical if you ask me. We should be speaking out, not covering up, because we once loved the church. When we've been made aware of wrongdoing, we're required to speak out. Otherwise, they get away with it. Rot needs to be exposed!

Second of all, I want to address the idea that you're all offended and expected a sincere apology from me. For some of you, rarely a day goes by, when you don't offend someone. Where's the cry for apologies? You offend Christians and conservatives, ALL the time! When I call you on it, you don't apologize. You just say that you weren't referring to me. So, if you don't want to be offended by others, look in the mirror. If you want an apology for being offended, try giving one yourself!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I didn't find your statements agreeable.
> You might have thought I would be happy to be scolded, you were incorrect. In future, it might be best to avoid reading my posts. Scolding twice or three times,is enough. I will continue to post what I wish to post as do all of us.
> 
> (Why do I feel compelled to explain myself to you)???


Shirley, just as you are not happy being scolded, neither am I! You scold me ALL of the time! Agree with me or disagree, but I hope this has been an example of how people feel, when you scold them. It goes both ways.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

JustBeachy said:


> Eh, you were expressing how you feel and you might've repeated the argument but, you approached it from a different angle.
> 
> I dunno, sometimes I like to 'rehash' an argument because I don't feel my original semantics were clear enough, and when I reword an argument, it becomes distilled.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the support. I am not aware of any agreement with SQM so that is news to me.
I appreciate it that you knew what I meant and why I posted. There were other posts that I answered and I do realize I repeated myself, but I likely would again. You are correct -- I have communicated by typing notes all my working life. I find it difficult to post a sentence because it never expresses my point.

I also don't text and I do think that helps reduce the words in a post or a letter. However, at my age I am not worrying about changing how I do things.

I am really enjoying this group, and learning so much about your elections and your politics. Our Federal election is coming up this coming October and nothing will really get interesting until August or September. It is very different than the American elections. 
------------------------------
I had a very good day today, met two members from KP and we are planning to go for coffee in the near future.They are visiting a friend and are from Alberta, and both were students in the workshops and contacted me. It was lovely to meet them.

They read this thread yesterday . I have never seen any of them post here - but it seems they read and enjoy our thread, which is nice to know. I wonder how many people lurk here, obviously some do.

Well, I have volunteered to make 6 ruffled scarves for our upcoming table in the Seniors market this summer so I had better get at it.

I meant to ask, are things better in Texas or are they still being flooded. I saw some pictures on CBC and the flooding reminded of the bad flood we had 2 years ago in Alberta. I hope things are drying up and there are less worries there and that it is getting back to normal. Terrible thing, flooding.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Shirley, Dallas is flooded. It looks like there may be flooding in Colorado, too. How I wish that California could get some of this rain. I don't live there, but I can see what the drought is doing to the farming and wine industries there.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

And now, if everybody doesn't hate me so much, that they don't want to hear... an update.

The babies are doing fantastic! Thomas is off the ventilator. He is on C Pap, which gives him just a little extra oxygen. All three of the others are breathing fully on their own. Thomas has grown enough to keep his body temperature, so they've moved him into a crib, instead of the issolette/incubator. All of the jaundice is gone so, none of the babies are under the bilirubin lights anymore. They're learning to suck and dil is getting to nurse them. However, they haven't gotten the hang of it yet, so they're all still tube fed directly into their stomachs. They all get to wear clothes now, and be swaddled. We quickly became aware that we didn't have enough preemie girl's clothes. Preemie clothes are hard to find. We had some boys clothes, that I'd bought for the triplets, and I'd added to that, so the boys had enough but not the girls. Last night, I shopped all over and found girl's clothes and blankets. I ended up dying some white onesies, pink and lavender, because they're so hard to find. Tonight, I took an infant CPR class and spent time in the NICU. 

My son went back to work today. He decided to save his PTO for when the babies start coming home. So, I'm back to taking care of Max and my dil, as before. She had a fever this morning, so I took her to the doctor. He said it was nothing to worry about, and prescribed an antibiotic. Otherwise, all is well. THE BABIES ARE SOOOO CUTE! (And I'm not just saying that.)


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And now, if everybody doesn't hate me so much, that they don't want to hear... an update.
> 
> The babies are doing fantastic! Thomas is off the ventilator. He is on C Pap, which gives him just a little extra oxygen. All three of the others are breathing fully on their own. Thomas has grown enough to keep his body temperature, so they've moved him into a crib, instead of the issolette/incubator. All of the jaundice is gone so, none of the babies are under the bilirubin lights anymore. They're learning to suck and dil is getting to nurse them. However, they haven't gotten the hang of it yet, so they're all still tube fed directly into their stomachs. They all get to wear clothes now, and be swaddled. We quickly became aware that we didn't have enough preemie girl's clothes. Preemie clothes are hard to find. We had some boys clothes, that I'd bought for the triplets, and I'd added to that, so the boys had enough but not the girls. Last night, I shopped all over and found girl's clothes and blankets. I ended up dying some white onesies, pink and lavender, because they're so hard to find. Tonight, I took an infant CPR class and spent time in the NICU.
> 
> My son went back to work today. He decided to save his PTO for when the babies start coming home. So, I'm back to taking care of Max and my dil, as before. She had a fever this morning, so I took her to the doctor. He said it was nothing to worry about, and prescribed an antibiotic. Otherwise, all is well. THE BABIES ARE SOOOO CUTE! (And I'm not just saying that.)


So much good news. BUT, do you really think the girls need girlish clothes at this stage? Will it really matter to them whether they're in blue or in pink? (I suspect all babies would rather have bright colors around them, despite the current custom. There was a time when baby colors were the reverse of what they are now: blue for girls and pink for boys.)

If they still look the way they did in your first batch of pictures, they really are soooo cute. Enjoy them. I wallow in self-pity.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And now, if everybody doesn't hate me so much, that they don't want to hear... an update.
> 
> The babies are doing fantastic! Thomas is off the ventilator. He is on C Pap, which gives him just a little extra oxygen. All three of the others are breathing fully on their own. Thomas has grown enough to keep his body temperature, so they've moved him into a crib, instead of the issolette/incubator. All of the jaundice is gone so, none of the babies are under the bilirubin lights anymore. They're learning to suck and dil is getting to nurse them. However, they haven't gotten the hang of it yet, so they're all still tube fed directly into their stomachs. They all get to wear clothes now, and be swaddled. We quickly became aware that we didn't have enough preemie girl's clothes. Preemie clothes are hard to find. We had some boys clothes, that I'd bought for the triplets, and I'd added to that, so the boys had enough but not the girls. Last night, I shopped all over and found girl's clothes and blankets. I ended up dying some white onesies, pink and lavender, because they're so hard to find. Tonight, I took an infant CPR class and spent time in the NICU.
> 
> My son went back to work today. He decided to save his PTO for when the babies start coming home. So, I'm back to taking care of Max and my dil, as before. She had a fever this morning, so I took her to the doctor. He said it was nothing to worry about, and prescribed an antibiotic. Otherwise, all is well. THE BABIES ARE SOOOO CUTE! (And I'm not just saying that.)


I am so happy to hear about the gaggle of babies. Or is it a congress of babies? Can you post more pics? I love that you are so concerned about clothes. Just get them all denim and all will be well.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Shirley, just as you are not happy being scolded, neither am I! You scold me ALL of the time! Agree with me or disagree, but I hope this has been an example of how people feel, when you scold them. It goes both ways.


==============================
Just to reply to your statement above. I was not in a conversation with SQM however I was scolded by her even though it was not her business. As a result I was angry, and definitely not hurt. It was between you and I and you didn't try to explain or discuss your side of the conversation.

I know you well, and if you wished to I know you are perfectly capable of taking me on and explaining your side. You never do when I call you on some of your statements. I state my opinion, why don't you take me on and give me some answers?

You have said many times that you make statements to start a discussion -- it doesn't happen because you won't discuss, you just disappear. Yesterday was a bit different because I took offense at your 'Apology' and your blanket statements about the Catholic Church. I can't apologize for understanding it was a deliberate insult. 
------------------------------------------------------------------
I suggested that you give your opinion of those who are running for the Conservatives. I know that there is a good possibility that we could all have a discussion, even though we might not agree. I know you would be the minority, but you choose to be here and say you want to discuss. I hope you will consider it.

-----------------------------------------

I hope the babies are all doing well. Is dil home and are the babies coming home soon? They are and always will be in my Prayers. Politics are a separate thing from friendship in my opinion.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

JustBeachy said:


> I think I'm confused. I'm saying I'm sorry 1234 felt she needed to apologize. I don't think she did anything wrong.


I am confused too. Purl, I am not a Catholic, did you think I was?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> So much good news. BUT, do you really think the girls need girlish clothes at this stage? Will it really matter to them whether they're in blue or in pink? (I suspect all babies would rather have bright colors around them, despite the current custom. There was a time when baby colors were the reverse of what they are now: blue for girls and pink for boys.)
> 
> If they still look the way they did in your first batch of pictures, they really are soooo cute. Enjoy them. I wallow in self-pity.


Oh, the girls definitely need girly things! I've never had granddaughters before. This is going to be fun and I won't miss it. We'll have lace and frills and TUTUs!

I haven't been taking pictures because they've been keeping the rooms nearly dark. I feel bad when the flash goes off and startles them. I've got a few pics on my phone. I'll post them.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

SQM said:


> I am so happy to hear about the gaggle of babies. Or is it a congress of babies? Can you post more pics? I love that you are so concerned about clothes. Just get them all denim and all will be well.


So nice to know the babies are all doing well.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

SQM said:


> You owe me nothing and nor have I ever asked you for anything. You were perseverating on what Nebs wrote and it was getting to be too much, by your own admission. And it seems like it is happening again today. It is beginning to feel like cruelty. Many of us took umbrage with Nebs' post and said so. You were not the only one - however most got it out of their system with a post or two. When you harp, rest assured I skip your posts. They are unpleasant to read.


change my mind.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh, the girls definitely need girly things! I've never had granddaughters before. This is going to be fun and I won't miss it. We'll have lace and frills and TUTUs!
> 
> I haven't been taking pictures because they've been keeping the rooms nearly dark. I feel bad when the flash goes off and startles them. I've got a few pics on my phone. I'll post them.


Do you sew KFN? They have the cutest little ruffly butt diaper covers out there. I think Mc Calls has the best selection. I know it will be a while before they fit into them. Maybe there are some premie patterns out on the net some place.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Here we go.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh, the girls definitely need girly things! I've never had granddaughters before. This is going to be fun and I won't miss it. We'll have lace and frills and TUTUs!
> 
> I haven't been taking pictures because they've been keeping the rooms nearly dark. I feel bad when the flash goes off and startles them. I've got a few pics on my phone. I'll post them.


I hope you will post them. I am glad they are all doing so well. Am I understanding that DIL is home? I might have read it wrong. It sounds as if it won't be long before they all arrive. oops! you must have posted the photos while I was posting this. The picture show that they have grown already! They look great.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

And...


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> I am so happy to hear about the gaggle of babies. Or is it a congress of babies? Can you post more pics? I love that you are so concerned about clothes. Just get them all denim and all will be well.


Denim isn't snuggly. :-(


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> ==============================
> Just to reply to your statement above. I was not in a conversation with SQM however I was scolded by her even though it was not her business. As a result I was angry, and definitely not hurt. It was between you and I and you didn't try to explain or discuss your side of the conversation.
> 
> I know you well, and if you wished to I know you are perfectly capable of taking me on and explaining your side. You never do when I call you on some of your statements. I state my opinion, why don't you take me on and give me some answers?
> ...


I'm sorry, I didn't think you wanted my side. It seemed like you just wanted to scold me and then, get me to say that I liked the repubs, so you could scold me again. BTW: I don't like the repubs or the dems. I think they're all owned. I'm holding out for a party that represents the people.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> So nice to know the babies are all doing well.


Thank you, Cheeky!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Do you sew KFN? They have the cutest little ruffly butt diaper covers out there. I think Mc Calls has the best selection. I know it will be a while before they fit into them. Maybe there are some premie patterns out on the net some place.


I do sew! That sounds like such fun, but I have so little time to do anything. I think I've hundreds of things I'd like to make but...so little time.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Well ladies, It started off as a good day but has gone down hill since. However Pat and I are going to take a drive to Nanaimo {after I meet a couple of KP people from Alberta for coffee} ,and explore around there tomorrow. I will try to stay away for the next while. I know none of you need any more of the drama. 

Thanks to you all.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I do sew! That sounds like such fun, but I have so little time to do anything. I think I've hundreds of things I'd like to make but...so little time.


I know. I am sewing summer dresses and outfits for GD and her dolls. I do it when she isn't here. That doesn't give me much time.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I am confused too. Purl, I am not a Catholic, did you think I was?


No, but I'm not sure it matters. I read JustBeachy's message (the one that said you don't need to apologize) as replying to Nebraska's message with the nasty "apology," so I couldn't make sense of what Beachy was saying.

I bet that made it even more confusing. It's not worth spending time on.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I hope you will post them. I am glad they are all doing so well. Am I understanding that DIL is home? I might have read it wrong. It sounds as if it won't be long before they all arrive. oops! you must have posted the photos while I was posting this. The picture show that they have grown already! They look great.


Yes! I forgot to mention, dil got out of the hospital Sunday evening. She's slowly feeling better but is weak from months of doing nothing. Now, we're all scrambling to figure out who will be with the babies, when. Dil can't drive yet, or do much, so we need to care for her and Max. Today, after I took her to the doctor, I took her to the hospital to see the babies. Max and I spent three hours in waiting rooms, which is too much. Tomorrow, I'll just drop her off and wait for her to call. She hadn't planned on being there so long, but doctors and nurses kept her longer. If the circumstances were different, we'd like to be with them around the clock. But hopefully, it won't be too long.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh, the girls definitely need girly things! I've never had granddaughters before. This is going to be fun and I won't miss it. We'll have lace and frills and TUTUs!
> 
> I haven't been taking pictures because they've been keeping the rooms nearly dark. I feel bad when the flash goes off and startles them. I've got a few pics on my phone. I'll post them.


Okay, I get it. How much do you want to bet that when they're able to choose their own clothes, it will be jeans and tee shirts? But until then, bring on the tutus.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Well ladies, It started off as a good day but has gone down hill since. However Pat and I are going to take a drive to Nanaimo {after I meet a couple of KP people from Alberta for coffee} ,and explore around there tomorrow. I will try to stay away for the next while. I know none of you need any more of the drama.
> 
> Thanks to you all.


What's a little drama, among friends? I hope you have a nice day tomorrow.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Here we go.


They really are beautiful, and surprisingly chubby for such young ones. Again, your dil deserves credit for keeping them fat and sassy all that time.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I know. I am sewing summer dresses and outfits for GD and her dolls. I do it when she isn't here. That doesn't give me much time.


Some day, I WILL be doing that. I can't wait. It sounds like so much fun. Right now, I get up at 6:00am and take care of dil (and Max) til 2 or 3, then I take Max to my house til 5:30. Lately, they've been staying for dinner some days. Then I visit the babies, shop, do laundry and do this. I should be knitting.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Okay, I get it. How much do you want to bet that when they're able to choose their own clothes, it will be jeans and tee shirts? But until then, bring on the tutus.


 :lol: I know you're right. My other dil came from a wealthy family. She had a closet full of Laura Ashley dresses, that she wouldn't be caught dead in. They all hung there with the tags attached. She wore her ratty jeans and sweatshirts.

I was in a very expensive baby boutique, a couple of weeks ago. They had handmade tutus for $25. All they were, is headbands you can get at Michaels or Hobby Lobby, with the tulle woven in. There was no tulle on the back, so the baby wouldn't have to sit on the bunch of tulle. I said to myself, "I can make those"! So, I'm going to, if I have time. Its really just a photo prop, but how cute!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm sorry, I didn't think you wanted my side. It seemed like you just wanted to scold me and then, get me to say that I liked the repubs, so you could scold me again. BTW: I don't like the repubs or the dems. I think they're all owned. I'm holding out for a party that represents the people.


fair enough.Obviously I am picking on you. That is not however what I was trying to do. I was trying to have a 'discussion' about some of the things you say that I don't agree with. { That is really the first answer I remember receiving. } However I was not trying to trap you as you say above. I really do want a discussion but I more and more feel that it wouldn't be possible. I still hope I am wrong. I want you to explain your reasons and your ideas for changing things in specifics. I want you to explain why you say some of the things you do. I have asked you for your reasons and opinions often, I expressed my opinions. It came across as scolding because I never got an answer so I express my opinion of what you say. You don't take disagreement with your ideas very happily. If you read my posts, aside from yesterday's. I ask questions - sometimes the same ones over and over, but I don't remember receiving any answers.

Anyway, I am signing off tonight. I am sick and tired of the whole business.

So I am going to bed and read. I am tired and wish I hadn't come on line yesterday.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What's a little drama, among friends? I hope you have a nice day tomorrow.


same to you.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> They really are beautiful, and surprisingly chubby for such young ones. Again, your dil deserves credit for keeping them fat and sassy all that time.


I agree! She did an awesome job. It really was hard for her. She's a very active person, always going and doing. So, it was hard to lay around for five months.

All of the employees at the hospital are buzzing about the quads that went 33 weeks. It's almost unheard of. And no one can get over how big they are.

For the few few days everybody at the hospital was talking about the quads that were born. I'd be in the elevator, and people would say, "Did you hear somebody had quads?". I'd say, " Yup! They MY grandbabies!". Over the weekend I was on the elevator with a man and his little girl. She told me, "We had a baby.". Her Daddy piped up and said, " TWO babies!". I just smiled and said, "Well, we had FOUR!". He laughed and said he'd heard about the quads. I'm having lots of fun with this.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

KFN, babies look so well and content! They're beautiful!!!

Glad to know DIL is in one piece at least! I had a caesar and it took me a good 6 weeks to feel normal again and that was with just one bub. She'll need to take things easy to start with and not go at it like a bat out of hell. She most likely won't be able to do too much anyway but with each day she'll get stronger and just with caring for the babies she'll bounce back to her usual self.

It's all so very lovely!!! I'm excitement for you all.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Nebs - how does one mother nurse 4 babies? Supply and demand? Good ol' fashioned capitalism?


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Nebs - how does one mother nurse 4 babies? Supply and demand? Good ol' fashioned capitalism?


 :XD: :XD: :XD:

I'm sure it's going to be challenging nutting out a system. Is DIL going to breastfeed?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm so glad you feel this way, because I'm about to stick up for myself! I sure hope that you didn't mean it to apply, only to people with whom you agree. After all, what's good for the goose, is good for the gander.
> 
> First of all, I am not going to apologize for stating how I feel! You ALL, can agree or disagree, I don't care! I categorically stated that I was NOT referring to the many good catholic people, but to the corrupt institution. I think it's very hypocritical of liberals to be offended, when I called them, as I see them. Liberals claim to support the victims. They talk, like they care about the little guy. And yet, here's the catholic church, probably the world's biggest and richest corporation EVER, protecting pedophiles who have abused the most innocent of us all, and you're defending them! You're outraged by other corporations robbing the poor and being greedy, but not the catholic church. You don't sound like liberals to me! Why aren't you demanding that they be called upon to answer for their crimes against the innocent. You go on and on against me and then, you all share more horror stories about the church. It's hypocritical if you ask me. We should be speaking out, not covering up, because we once loved the church. When we've been made aware of wrongdoing, we're required to speak out. Otherwise, they get away with it. Rot needs to be exposed!
> 
> Second of all, I want to address the idea that you're all offended and expected a sincere apology from me. For some of you, rarely a day goes by, when you don't offend someone. Where's the cry for apologies? You offend Christians and conservatives, ALL the time! When I call you on it, you don't apologize. You just say that you weren't referring to me. So, if you don't want to be offended by others, look in the mirror. If you want an apology for being offended, try giving one yourself!


We don't accept an apology like you said. Better to have said you don't feel you wanted to apologize - than have accused people you know quite well of the things you said. Here I go again.

enough - I am leaving for now.

I have had it. We are liberals -- I am a couple of others are Christians. Why do you say that we offend Christians? I am too tired to carry this on and I think I am finally convinced that it is hopeless. Let's let it go and I promise I will try to ignore some of your statements even though they drive me crazy. If I can't ignore it - you can either argue or ignore my posts which is usually what happens.

Goodnight everyone.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Sweet Dreams, Shirley!!


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Nebs - how does one mother nurse 4 babies? Supply and demand? Good ol' fashioned capitalism?


Maybe she'll evolve a second pair. Or maybe Dad will. Or maybe they'll feed the littles formula half the time.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Goodnight everyone.


Goodnight, Designer. Don't let us get you down. Just think of us as bickering teens. Enjoy your day tomorrow.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Goodnight, Designer. Don't let us get you down. Just think of us as bickering teens. Enjoy your day tomorrow.


You always say cute things. You hit the nail about bickering teens. That is why all of this is so much fun.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> You always say cute things. You hit the nail about bickering teens. That is why all of this is so much fun.


Boop boop a doo.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Boop boop a doo.


Betty Boop is so old she must be on The Other Side- hardly a teenager.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> Betty Boop is so old she must be on The Other Side- hardly a teenager.


That was just an example of those cute things you say I say.

Besides, if she were old, would she look like she does in my avatar?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And now, if everybody doesn't hate me so much, that they don't want to hear... an update.
> 
> The babies are doing fantastic! Thomas is off the ventilator. He is on C Pap, which gives him just a little extra oxygen. All three of the others are breathing fully on their own. Thomas has grown enough to keep his body temperature, so they've moved him into a crib, instead of the issolette/incubator. All of the jaundice is gone so, none of the babies are under the bilirubin lights anymore. They're learning to suck and dil is getting to nurse them. However, they haven't gotten the hang of it yet, so they're all still tube fed directly into their stomachs. They all get to wear clothes now, and be swaddled. We quickly became aware that we didn't have enough preemie girl's clothes. Preemie clothes are hard to find. We had some boys clothes, that I'd bought for the triplets, and I'd added to that, so the boys had enough but not the girls. Last night, I shopped all over and found girl's clothes and blankets. I ended up dying some white onesies, pink and lavender, because they're so hard to find. Tonight, I took an infant CPR class and spent time in the NICU.
> 
> My son went back to work today. He decided to save his PTO for when the babies start coming home. So, I'm back to taking care of Max and my dil, as before. She had a fever this morning, so I took her to the doctor. He said it was nothing to worry about, and prescribed an antibiotic. Otherwise, all is well. THE BABIES ARE SOOOO CUTE! (And I'm not just saying that.)


I'm thrilled to hear such a positive update on the babies and I'm glad you have Max back in your loving care. Do you have more photos? The babies are just beautiful.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Ya Nebs more pics. They perk up everyone's day. I am still amazed.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:



> Ya Nebs more pics. They perk up everyone's day. I am still amazed.


My son showed me how to turn the flash off, on my phone. So, I'll try again. I'd just feel so bad when the flash would startle them, that I didn't want to take pics.

I'm amazed as well. Sometimes when I look at them, I just can't help but cry. They are so perfect and beautiful.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And now, if everybody doesn't hate me so much, that they don't want to hear... an update.
> 
> The babies are doing fantastic! Thomas is off the ventilator. He is on C Pap, which gives him just a little extra oxygen. All three of the others are breathing fully on their own. Thomas has grown enough to keep his body temperature, so they've moved him into a crib, instead of the issolette/incubator. All of the jaundice is gone so, none of the babies are under the bilirubin lights anymore. They're learning to suck and dil is getting to nurse them. However, they haven't gotten the hang of it yet, so they're all still tube fed directly into their stomachs. They all get to wear clothes now, and be swaddled. We quickly became aware that we didn't have enough preemie girl's clothes. Preemie clothes are hard to find. We had some boys clothes, that I'd bought for the triplets, and I'd added to that, so the boys had enough but not the girls. Last night, I shopped all over and found girl's clothes and blankets. I ended up dying some white onesies, pink and lavender, because they're so hard to find. Tonight, I took an infant CPR class and spent time in the NICU.
> 
> My son went back to work today. He decided to save his PTO for when the babies start coming home. So, I'm back to taking care of Max and my dil, as before. She had a fever this morning, so I took her to the doctor. He said it was nothing to worry about, and prescribed an antibiotic. Otherwise, all is well. THE BABIES ARE SOOOO CUTE! (And I'm not just saying that.)


Thank you for the update. Hope our prayers continue to be answered and the 4 babies and their big brother thrive. You are entering an exciting and frenetic phase in your lives. Don't let anyone lose sight of the joys as you navigate four (probably five!) little people wanting attention at the same time and then at all hours of the day and night. May they be granted health and you grown ups be granted strength and peace of mind.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Here we go.


Wow, Leonidas really has filled out since the first set of pictures. They are adorable.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Okay, I get it. How much do you want to bet that when they're able to choose their own clothes, it will be jeans and tee shirts? But until then, bring on the tutus.


Never know how young they will be when their taste in clothes manifests itself. DD was under a year when she started to scream whenever I brought pink near her.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Some day, I WILL be doing that. I can't wait. It sounds like so much fun. Right now, I get up at 6:00am and take care of dil (and Max) til 2 or 3, then I take Max to my house til 5:30. Lately, they've been staying for dinner some days. Then I visit the babies, shop, do laundry and do this. I should be knitting.


Sure you should be knitting . And when do you sleep???


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Thank you for the update. Hope our prayers continue to be answered and the 4 babies and their big brother thrive. You are entering an exciting and frenetic phase in your lives. Don't let anyone lose sight of the joys as you navigate four (probably five!) little people wanting attention at the same time and then at all hours of the day and night. May they be granted health and you grown ups be granted strength and peace of mind.


Thank you, Marilyn!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Okay, here's Thomas. Note his big boy crib.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Here's Kayla.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Beautiful! Thanks for the new photos.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Here's Arya. I got to hold Arya. This is the first time I've gotten to hold any of them. Plus I got to change Arya's and Thomas's diapers and clothes. It was almost unnerving, because they're so tiny.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Here's Leonidas. He's so funny. He's usually awake and looking around. And he has such big hands.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Here's Leonidas. He's so funny. He's usually awake and looking around. And he has such big hands.


They're exquisite! Have you not seen my good wishes KFN?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Beautiful! Thanks for the new photos.


Thank you, Cheeky!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> They're exquisite! Have you not seen my good wishes KFN?


I'm sorry Wombat! I try to acknowledge everyone, but I must have missed you. I apologize. Thank you!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm sorry Wombat! I try to acknowledge everyone, but I must have missed you. I apologize. Thank you!


Of course, I'm just being clingy!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Awhh, they are so sweet. I think I saw one of them smiling.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Of course, I'm just being clingy!


That's OK. You can be a honorary Grandma.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Awhh, they are so sweet. I think I saw one of them smiling.


That's Kayla. She's smiling a lot. I suppose it's just gas, but she never seems uncomfortable. She's very easygoing.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

The babies make me smile. I guess I can have a favorite because this is all virtual. While they are all stupendous, Big Ol' Thomas is my favorite. We all want to be grandmas to them, especially those of us with a kid who is missing the boat. So glad you got to handle them. My daughter was 5 weeks early and when I was wheeling her on Broadway on the upper west side 32 years ago, a homeless woman stuck her nose in the buggy and said she was no bigger than a perdue chicken. I look back and am amazed how I managed since I never dealt with babies before. Have fun playing with the Great Quads.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> The babies make me smile. I guess I can have a favorite because this is all virtual. While they are all stupendous, Big Ol' Thomas is my favorite. We all want to be grandmas to them, especially those of us with a kid who is missing the boat. So glad you got to handle them. My daughter was 5 weeks early and when I was wheeling her on Broadway on the upper west side 32 years ago, a homeless woman stuck her nose in the buggy and said she was no bigger than a perdue chicken. I look back and am amazed how I managed since I never dealt with babies before. Have fun playing with the Great Quads.


You can ALL, be honorary Grandmas! I'm feeling very generous.

Thomas is such a chunk, compared to the others. It's hard to tell what his personality is like because he's usually sleeping. But he seems real laid back. He rarely cries, only when they're poking him or pulling tape off his face.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I love watching them while they sleep. They make at least 4 different expressions within a minute. Gas Schmass!! She is smiling.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You can ALL, be honorary Grandmas! I'm feeling very generous.
> 
> Thomas is such a chunk, compared to the others. It's hard to tell what his personality is like because he's usually sleeping. But he seems real laid back. He rarely cries, only when they're poking him or pulling tape off his face.


Perfect. He is a Baby Sloth. I knew it. I was able to relate to him immediately.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I love watching them while they sleep. They make at least 4 different expressions within a minute. Gas Schmass!! She is smiling.


I agree! She's always been the most at ease. She's always had the fewest problems and was the first to be held and the first to nurse. So, she has a reason to smile.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Perfect. He is a Baby Sloth. I knew it. I was able to relate to him immediately.


I wonder what my dil will think? :shock:


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska, the quads are all such cuties! They are amazing little babies.


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

We got the results of the neuropsych testing this evening. It was a relief. He has an official diagnosis that he needs services on account of autism spectrum disorder and will with support be able to have a job maybe as a computer programmer in a low-key office or something but will need lots of support and encouragement to do that and to function as far as living skills and at some point should transition to a group home for adults with what until recently was called Asperger's. And after fighting this for at least twenty years, David finally said that we should have done this twenty years ago. With help we will work with him at home on contributing to the household again, which will help him be ready to leave home, too. My sister's living with us undid a lot of the good that was happening before she moved in, and she did a lot to destroy our family. I am thrilled that she is living somewhere else now, and equally thrilled that Jonathan will finally be getting the help he needs. He will get to try out group homes when David goes to NYC to get his aunt's condo ready to sell -- especially on those trips I accompany DH on. It is amazing what I grew up thinking was fairly normal behavior because of how common it was in my family, that my children and I always saw Jonathan as the most like me in the way he thought. And my sister's meltdowns! It was like living in the old golfing joke about a good player and a not-so-good golfer playing a round of golf together, and the better player offering the other fellow a handicap. Guy B asked for two gotchas as his handicap. Guy A asked what's a gotcha? and guy B says he'll find out. Then at some thoroughly random point guy B grabs guy A's crotch and says,"Gotcha!" an of course guy A had to play the rest of the game never knowing when the next Gotcha would come. Living with my sister was like that. She was player B and everyone around her was player A. It wasn't until after she left in 2013, or until we were trying to get her out of our house because the people helping both Jonathan and me would not let either one of us go home until my sister was out of my house that I realized that I had been waiting for the second "gotcha" and the third and the fourth, for years, because in her game, she took unlimited gotchas. Had I realized what Jonathan's problems were without my sister around, I never would have let her move into my house. Of course her son said that she could not live alone because even if she got an apartment, "Would you put a four-year-old in an apartment by herself?"
Okay, that's enough kicking myself for one evening. We can move forward from here.
oh, and KFN, I hope that your dil sees the light where precious little Max is concerned a lot sooner than my wonderful husband was willing to get Jonno checked out. It took until Jonathan's first hospitalization five years ago and all this time no testing could happen without both of us giving the OK, and then when David finally saw the light, it took five years of asking one professional after another what was involved and who would do it before our son's current psychiatrist recommended a neuropsych who recommended another neuropsych because David finally realized that this testing needed to be done promptly. Aargh. So now twenty-five years or so after my father-in-law quietly asked me if I had thought that Jonno may have pervasive developmental delays and I asked him what that meant as the term meant nothing to me and instead of defining the term he clammed up and never mentioned the subject again, we finally have the word not only on Jonathan's superior abilities in some areas, but the distinct lacunae in some others that prevent his functioning normally.
Okay. Big sigh of relief. Another big breath. Now we have a lot of work to do, and I am looking forward to doing it.

Good night all. Love you all. Hearing from mothers and grandmothers and teachers of children who are "on the spectrum" has been helpful to me in ways that I never could have known. Thank you all.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Here's Arya. I got to hold Arya. This is the first time I've gotten to hold any of them. Plus I got to change Arya's and Thomas's diapers and clothes. It was almost unnerving, because they're so tiny.


Except in that picture of someone - you, I assume - holding Arya, they don't look tiny. They don't have that froggy look that most newborns have even after a full 9-month gestation.

And already you're seeing differences in their personalities.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Camacho said:


> We got the results of the neuropsych testing this evening. It was a relief. He has an official diagnosis that he needs services on account of autism spectrum disorder and will with support be able to have a job maybe as a computer programmer in a low-key office or something but will need lots of support and encouragement to do that and to function as far as living skills and at some point should transition to a group home for adults with what until recently was called Asperger's. And after fighting this for at least twenty years, David finally said that we should have done this twenty years ago. With help we will work with him at home on contributing to the household again, which will help him be ready to leave home, too. My sister's living with us undid a lot of the good that was happening before she moved in, and she did a lot to destroy our family. I am thrilled that she is living somewhere else now, and equally thrilled that Jonathan will finally be getting the help he needs. He will get to try out group homes when David goes to NYC to get his aunt's condo ready to sell -- especially on those trips I accompany DH on. It is amazing what I grew up thinking was fairly normal behavior because of how common it was in my family, that my children and I always saw Jonathan as the most like me in the way he thought. And my sister's meltdowns! It was like living in the old golfing joke about a good player and a not-so-good golfer playing a round of golf together, and the better player offering the other fellow a handicap. Guy B asked for two gotchas as his handicap. Guy A asked what's a gotcha? and guy B says he'll find out. Then at some thoroughly random point guy B grabs guy A's crotch and says,"Gotcha!" an of course guy A had to play the rest of the game never knowing when the next Gotcha would come. Living with my sister was like that. She was player B and everyone around her was player A. It wasn't until after she left in 2013, or until we were trying to get her out of our house because the people helping both Jonathan and me would not let either one of us go home until my sister was out of my house that I realized that I had been waiting for the second "gotcha" and the third and the fourth, for years, because in her game, she took unlimited gotchas. Had I realized what Jonathan's problems were without my sister around, I never would have let her move into my house. Of course her son said that she could not live alone because even if she got an apartment, "Would you put a four-year-old in an apartment by herself?"
> Okay, that's enough kicking myself for one evening. We can move forward from here.
> oh, and KFN, I hope that your dil sees the light where precious little Max is concerned a lot sooner than my wonderful husband was willing to get Jonno checked out. It took until Jonathan's first hospitalization five years ago and all this time no testing could happen without both of us giving the OK, and then when David finally saw the light, it took five years of asking one professional after another what was involved and who would do it before our son's current psychiatrist recommended a neuropsych who recommended another neuropsych because David finally realized that this testing needed to be done promptly. Aargh. So now twenty-five years or so after my father-in-law quietly asked me if I had thought that Jonno may have pervasive developmental delays and I asked him what that meant as the term meant nothing to me and instead of defining the term he clammed up and never mentioned the subject again, we finally have the word not only on Jonathan's superior abilities in some areas, but the distinct lacunae in some others that prevent his functioning normally.
> Okay. Big sigh of relief. Another big breath. Now we have a lot of work to do, and I am looking forward to doing it.
> ...


You sound freed up in a new way. It really does help to know what you're dealing with.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> That's OK. You can be a honorary Grandma.


Thank you! I'm honoured and humbled.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> The babies make me smile. I guess I can have a favorite because this is all virtual. While they are all stupendous, Big Ol' Thomas is my favorite. We all want to be grandmas to them, especially those of us with a kid who is missing the boat. So glad you got to handle them. My daughter was 5 weeks early and when I was wheeling her on Broadway on the upper west side 32 years ago, a homeless woman stuck her nose in the buggy and said she was no bigger than a perdue chicken. I look back and am amazed how I managed since I never dealt with babies before. Have fun playing with the Great Quads.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Perfect. He is a Baby Sloth. I knew it. I was able to relate to him immediately.


 :XD: :XD:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Speaking of autism spectrum, researchers in Switzerland have claimed that people on the spectrum are actually "hyper functional" and possess "super charged brains" and they are "acutely sensitive to the world around them...and are therefore not impaired." Interesting and encouraging theory perhaps?

It's in the Daily Mail! Eh, what am I to do?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3110872/People-autism-supercharged-brains-condition-sensitive-world-not-impaired.html


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Speaking of autism spectrum, researchers in Switzerland have claimed that people on the spectrum are actually "hyper functional" and possess "super charged brains" and they are "acutely sensitive to the world around them...and are therefore not impaired." Interesting and encouraging theory perhaps?
> 
> It's in the Daily Mail! Eh, what am I to do?
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3110872/People-autism-supercharged-brains-condition-sensitive-world-not-impaired.html


I had read an article along similar lines a few years ago and found it interesting. I also found this article interesting as it raises several questions.

http://questioning-answers.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/cerebral-palsy-and-autism.html


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Speaking of autism spectrum, researchers in Switzerland have claimed that people on the spectrum are actually "hyper functional" and possess "super charged brains" and they are "acutely sensitive to the world around them...and are therefore not impaired." Interesting and encouraging theory perhaps?
> 
> It's in the Daily Mail! Eh, what am I to do?
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3110872/People-autism-supercharged-brains-condition-sensitive-world-not-impaired.html


Love the pic of Thomas and me. He is a super cutie. You have to be pretty high on the spectrum to fit that theory. Many cannot communicate at all and do a lot of styming.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Nebs- the babies are absolutely gorgeous. They really don't look like preemies. What a wonderful result! 

I am thankful that their Mother is home and feeling better. It has been a long, hard journey for them. She should be proud of what she did. Give her a hug from all of us.

I am glad you got a chance to start holding them.

We are going up to Chemainus and explore around that area. We have been there but we want to look around some more. It is on the way to Nanaimo andChemainus is where the murals are. I want to get a few more pictures of them. Talk to you later in the day.


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Those articles on autism are fascinating.

Nebs, your grandbabies look so finished -- they're round and have hair. They came out ripe. My granddaughter didn't look so ready to come out to me, and she was a 37 1/2 week singleton. I am really impressed with your quads. Love them all.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Nebs- the babies are absolutely gorgeous. They really don't look like preemies. What a wonderful result!
> 
> I am thankful that their Mother is home and feeling better. It has been a long, hard journey for them. She should be proud of what she did. Give her a hug from all of us.
> 
> ...


Enjoy your day, Shirley. I will be looking forward to the pictures!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Camacho said:


> Knitter from Nebraska, the quads are all such cuties! They are amazing little babies.


Thanks, Camacho! I think they're amazing as well.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Camacho said:


> We got the results of the neuropsych testing this evening. It was a relief. He has an official diagnosis that he needs services on account of autism spectrum disorder and will with support be able to have a job maybe as a computer programmer in a low-key office or something but will need lots of support and encouragement to do that and to function as far as living skills and at some point should transition to a group home for adults with what until recently was called Asperger's. And after fighting this for at least twenty years, David finally said that we should have done this twenty years ago. With help we will work with him at home on contributing to the household again, which will help him be ready to leave home, too. My sister's living with us undid a lot of the good that was happening before she moved in, and she did a lot to destroy our family. I am thrilled that she is living somewhere else now, and equally thrilled that Jonathan will finally be getting the help he needs. He will get to try out group homes when David goes to NYC to get his aunt's condo ready to sell -- especially on those trips I accompany DH on. It is amazing what I grew up thinking was fairly normal behavior because of how common it was in my family, that my children and I always saw Jonathan as the most like me in the way he thought. And my sister's meltdowns! It was like living in the old golfing joke about a good player and a not-so-good golfer playing a round of golf together, and the better player offering the other fellow a handicap. Guy B asked for two gotchas as his handicap. Guy A asked what's a gotcha? and guy B says he'll find out. Then at some thoroughly random point guy B grabs guy A's crotch and says,"Gotcha!" an of course guy A had to play the rest of the game never knowing when the next Gotcha would come. Living with my sister was like that. She was player B and everyone around her was player A. It wasn't until after she left in 2013, or until we were trying to get her out of our house because the people helping both Jonathan and me would not let either one of us go home until my sister was out of my house that I realized that I had been waiting for the second "gotcha" and the third and the fourth, for years, because in her game, she took unlimited gotchas. Had I realized what Jonathan's problems were without my sister around, I never would have let her move into my house. Of course her son said that she could not live alone because even if she got an apartment, "Would you put a four-year-old in an apartment by herself?"
> Okay, that's enough kicking myself for one evening. We can move forward from here.
> oh, and KFN, I hope that your dil sees the light where precious little Max is concerned a lot sooner than my wonderful husband was willing to get Jonno checked out. It took until Jonathan's first hospitalization five years ago and all this time no testing could happen without both of us giving the OK, and then when David finally saw the light, it took five years of asking one professional after another what was involved and who would do it before our son's current psychiatrist recommended a neuropsych who recommended another neuropsych because David finally realized that this testing needed to be done promptly. Aargh. So now twenty-five years or so after my father-in-law quietly asked me if I had thought that Jonno may have pervasive developmental delays and I asked him what that meant as the term meant nothing to me and instead of defining the term he clammed up and never mentioned the subject again, we finally have the word not only on Jonathan's superior abilities in some areas, but the distinct lacunae in some others that prevent his functioning normally.
> Okay. Big sigh of relief. Another big breath. Now we have a lot of work to do, and I am looking forward to doing it.
> ...


Oh, Camacho! I'm so glad to hear that things are moving in the right direction, at last! I'll include Jonathan in my prayers, that he might be the best he can be and live the life he was meant to live. I pray he can find work that he enjoys and fulfills him. Best wishes to all of you.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Except in that picture of someone - you, I assume - holding Arya, they don't look tiny. They don't have that froggy look that most newborns have even after a full 9-month gestation.
> 
> And already you're seeing differences in their personalities.


It's as if they're perfect little miniatures. Other than Thomas, their little arms are as big around as my husband's fingers. They look so delicate. What's funny is that we all see their personalities in the same way. I don't know if it's really possible to see their personalities right from the start but it sure seems so. Thomas is laid back. He sleeps a lot and doesn't fuss at all, unless something is hurting him. Kayla is very outgoing. She likes to be handled and held. Arya is pissed. She'd rather be in utero. For the first several days, she'd cry when anyone just looked at her, let alone touched her. She's been labeled the drama queen. Leo is the curious one. He's always looking around. He cranes his neck to see things and turns his head from side to side, to see things. It's so much fun, just to watch them.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Thank you! I'm honoured and humbled.


 :lol:


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD:


Ahahahaha!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It's as if they're perfect little miniatures. Other than Thomas, their little arms are as big around as my husband's fingers. They look so delicate. What's funny is that we all see their personalities in the same way. I don't know if it's really possible to see their personalities right from the start but it sure seems so. Thomas is laid back. He sleeps a lot and doesn't fuss at all, unless something is hurting him. Kayla is very outgoing. She likes to be handled and held. Arya is pissed. She'd rather be in utero. For the first several days, she'd cry when anyone just looked at her, let alone touched her. She's been labeled the drama queen. Leo is the curious one. He's always looking around. He cranes his neck to see things and turns his head from side to side, to see things. It's so much fun, just to watch them.


I think you are completely correct about being able to see personalities already. Thank you again for letting all of us share in this great adventure in love and life.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Speaking of autism spectrum, researchers in Switzerland have claimed that people on the spectrum are actually "hyper functional" and possess "super charged brains" and they are "acutely sensitive to the world around them...and are therefore not impaired." Interesting and encouraging theory perhaps?
> 
> It's in the Daily Mail! Eh, what am I to do?
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3110872/People-autism-supercharged-brains-condition-sensitive-world-not-impaired.html


Thanks for sharing this. I found it very interesting. I've always thought that at least in some cases of Autism, extreme sensitivity to outward stimuli plays a part. I also know that Max does best when things are predictable. He likes to do the same things every day. I've been changing things very very gradually, and he's been doing OK with that. But if there's a major change, he can't handle it.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I had read an article along similar lines a few years ago and found it interesting. I also found this article interesting as it raises several questions.
> 
> http://questioning-answers.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/cerebral-palsy-and-autism.html


I found this article to be very interesting as well, especially the information contained within the links. Lots of into! Particularly interesting to me was not only the link between Autism and CP, but the link to Autoimmune Disorders. While my oldest son has CP, he's never had any symptoms of Autism. And while I believe that Max has Autism, he does have an Autoimmune Disorder, Eczema. In addition to having Eczema, he has an issue with his bowels, chronic diarrhea. I can't wait til we know more.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Love the pic of Thomas and me. He is a super cutie. You have to be pretty high on the spectrum to fit that theory. Many cannot communicate at all and do a lot of styming.


Maybe? They can't communicate because they've shut out the world? It's too much for them? And as I understand it, stimming is something they do to relax? Am I wrong?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Nebs- the babies are absolutely gorgeous. They really don't look like preemies. What a wonderful result!
> 
> I am thankful that their Mother is home and feeling better. It has been a long, hard journey for them. She should be proud of what she did. Give her a hug from all of us.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Shirley! I hope you'll share your photos. I don't know anything about Chemainus and in fact, have never heard of it. Before I knew you, I knew nothing about Canada. I love hearing about it and seeing your pics!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Camacho said:


> Those articles on autism are fascinating.
> 
> Nebs, your grandbabies look so finished -- they're round and have hair. They came out ripe. My granddaughter didn't look so ready to come out to me, and she was a 37 1/2 week singleton. I am really impressed with your quads. Love them all.


Thanks, Camacho! They are perfect, right down to their tiny little fingernails. But my favorite is their tiny little ears. And they do all have lots of hair. I hope they get Max's hair, especially the girls. It's so pretty and curly. When he was a baby, people mistook him for a girl even when dressed in blue, because he was so pretty.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I think you are completely correct about being able to see personalities already. Thank you again for letting all of us share in this great adventure in love and life.


It's been my pleasure. Thank you for your interest. I get so excited, I can barely contain myself.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, Camacho! They are perfect, right down to their tiny little fingernails. But my favorite is their tiny little ears. And they do all have lots of hair. I hope they get Max's hair, especially the girls. It's so pretty and curly. When he was a baby, people mistook him for a girl even when dressed in blue, because he was so pretty.


The fingernails! Oh yes, that struck a chord in my heart. My daughter is 43, yet I can still clearly recall my first sight of her, lying on my stomach and her tiny little fingernails, so perfect yet hardly bigger than a pinhead. I was in awe.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Maybe? They can't communicate because they've shut out the world? It's too much for them? And as I understand it, stimming is something they do to relax? Am I wrong?


You can be on the spectrum and still have other neurological disorders. Higher functioning people with autism can do quite well in the world - I assume Silicon Valley is full of these people. But as mentioned, there is a spectrum and unfortunately those at the lower end have a tougher row to hoe. Actually so little is known about autism that most of it is just conjecture. Stimming might be relaxing or it might just be sort of like a tic. Our knowledge of the brain is primitive. But what is known is that very early intervention for any kid on the spectrum makes things better. Every thing you are doing with Max Man is perfect. I have seen kids with childhood autism get PH.Ds. So keep up the good work GNebs.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I found this article to be very interesting as well, especially the information contained within the links. Lots of into! Particularly interesting to me was not only the link between Autism and CP, but the link to Autoimmune Disorders. While my oldest son has CP, he's never had any symptoms of Autism. And while I believe that Max has Autism, he does have an Autoimmune Disorder, Eczema. In addition to having Eczema, he has an issue with his bowels, chronic diarrhea. I can't wait til we know more.


I am very happy to hear and see that your babies are all doing well and progressing. It is interesting to see them all displaying individual personalities even at such a tender age. They are all individuals with their own little quirks and traits. I hope your DIL is recovering, she still has to take it easy and give her body time to recover from the operation.

I did not know that your eldest son had CP.

I also found the article I posted very interesting, they are finding out much more about autism. They have now established an autism help and support centre near where I live and it offers help and support to both parents and sufferers right from when the child is diagnosed through to adult life. They are diagnosing it very early today and offer intervention programmes for young babies. I just wish they had had those programmes in place when Kai was a toddler but we lived in a small country town rather than a big city so I guess he still would have missed out. The centre offers employment support for sufferers and I think this could benefit Kai if he has trouble in the future with his employment, which has happened in the past due to him having a meltdown. I have now taken to advising his employer that he has high functioning autism and it surprises me to see that many people have a greater depth of autism these days. I told his present employer and they surprised me by telling me that they already knew he had autism because they had observed him. I had not previously mentioned it because so many people mistaken believe that autism equates to mental retardation and then label the autistic person as a 'slow' or worse still a 'retard'.

You yourself must also take it easy and get some rest. I think you have been running yourself on overdrive in order to be there for Max and to help your DIL. Relax and have fun with Max and let him know that he is still your Number One Little Man.

:-D


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> You can be on the spectrum and still have other neurological disorders. Higher functioning people with autism can do quite well in the world - I assume Silicon Valley is full of these people. But as mentioned, there is a spectrum and unfortunately those at the lower end have a tougher row to hoe. Actually so little is known about autism that most of it is just conjecture. Stimming might be relaxing or it might just be sort of like a tic. Our knowledge of the brain is primitive. But what is known is that very early intervention for any kid on the spectrum makes things better. Every thing you are doing with Max Man is perfect. I have seen kids with childhood autism get PH.Ds. So keep up the good work GNebs.


What I'm finding interesting is that they're taking things out of the spectrum. They're going to separate Aspergers from Autism and while my 8 year old grandson has many symptoms of Autism, they're not calling it that, they're calling it Sensory Processing Disorder. He gets occupational and speech therapy. What I'd read, is that the sensory and speech problems were just part of the Autism. I've been researching and studying Autism since before he was born, and I think he has Aspergers. I don't know whether they're breaking apart the spectrum to better help the kids, or if they're doing it to hide the true numbers, of kids with Autism.

What absolutely astounds me is the changes I've seen in Max. I don't pretend to be an expert in Autism. In my mind, I've just been trying to pull him from this private little world of his, into the world where the rest of us reside. When I first started watching him, he didn't play. We would just engage in repetitive actions. He mimicked sounds from morning til evening, the sound of the microwave, or a lawn mower, or a siren or any other sound he'd hear. Often times, we'd be trying to figure out what it was that he was mimicking. He seemingly raged over anything or nothing. When he tried to communicate, it was usually with only one word, such as "orange". We were left to figure out whether he wanted his orange shirt, his orange cup, orange spoon or orange anything else. If we couldn't guess right away, he'd rage. His rages were very violent, and he would physically hurt me. His parents were very apologetic and didn't want me to get hurt, but I kept going.

It all started with floor time. For hours every day, I'd sit with him while he took apart and put together, his airplane. Initially, I sat quietly. Then I just started talking while he did it. I'd ask questions and get no response. After a couple of weeks, I started picking up and handing him the screws. At first, he was a little uncomfortable letting me touch them, but I didn't try to put them in, I just handed them to him. Then I started holding out my hand, for him to hand me the screws when he took them out. That's what started it all. I started insisting he use two words to tell me what he wanted, as in " orange spoon". He started mimicking my words. While he wasn't actually communicating, he was learning to say the words. Also, when he raged his parents felt they had no choice but to lock him in his room because it could be very dangerous to be around him. I would put him in his room and tell him that I was not locking the door. He could come out whenever he had calmed himself down and gotten control of himself. (At my house, I used a chair. He had to stay in the chair until he'd calmed down.). Initially, I had to keep putting him back in his room, but now I rarely have to put him in there. I just remind him to get himself calmed down. When he realized that it was up to him, how long he had to stay in "time out", the time got shorter and shorter, until he hardly ever rages. He's even able to stop and think before he rages. Last week, he wanted a snack right before dinner. I told him he had to wait til after dinner. He just started to rage and I told him if he calmed down, he could have the snack after dinner but if he didn't control himself, he would get no snack at all. He stopped. That was so amazing! I couldn't believe that he was able to control it that well.

He's also using full sentences now. Lots of times he just repeats things, but sometimes he surprises me. We play a game, where we throw his "froggy" back and forth. He loves it! Last week, I added a twist. I looked at froggy and said, "Froggy? Tell Max that I love him!". Then I threw it. He looked at Froggy and said, " Froggy, tell Grandma that I "yove" her"!". This was amazing! He'd converted the "him" to "her", all by himself! This might sound so little, but it meant that he wasn't just repeating my words. Little things keep adding up and he's amazing! He communicates very well now. Sometimes, I have to prompt for more information, but he's able to say what he he wants. He's talking and playing! And he talks about the babies a lot! I'm hopeful that things will go well when they come home.

He doesn't need all of the lights on anymore and he's stopped throwing his head on the floor. He seldom spins in circles or mimics the sounds he hears. He still likes his routines, but doesn't freak out when they're not done on time or in order. And he doesn't take apart or put together his airplane anymore. He prefers play with others.

Sorry I went on and on, but its just been so exciting to see the changes in him. His parents want to put him in preschool next fall, as he'll be four. I think when that happens, they won't be able to deny any longer. I'm hoping he'll get a diagnosis and the help, he'll continue to need. But for now, he's doing pretty good.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I found this article to be very interesting as well, especially the information contained within the links. Lots of into! Particularly interesting to me was not only the link between Autism and CP, but the link to Autoimmune Disorders. While my oldest son has CP, he's never had any symptoms of Autism. And while I believe that Max has Autism, he does have an Autoimmune Disorder, Eczema. In addition to having Eczema, he has an issue with his bowels, chronic diarrhea. I can't wait til we know more.


That's interesting, Nebraska. I too have noticed that a fair number of kids who fall on the autism spectrum seem to have overactive immune systems (allergies, eczema, Crohn's disease). It's be interesting to know if more research has been done to check for a possible connection.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What I'm finding interesting is that they're taking things out of the spectrum. They're going to separate Aspergers from Autism and while my 8 year old grandson has many symptoms of Autism, they're not calling it that, they're calling it Sensory Processing Disorder. He gets occupational and speech therapy. What I'd read, is that the sensory and speech problems were just part of the Autism. I've been researching and studying Autism since before he was born, and I think he has Aspergers. I don't know whether they're breaking apart the spectrum to better help the kids, or if they're doing it to hide the true numbers, of kids with Autism.
> 
> What absolutely astounds me is the changes I've seen in Max. I don't pretend to be an expert in Autism. In my mind, I've just been trying to pull him from this private little world of his, into the world where the rest of us reside. When I first started watching him, he didn't play. We would just engage in repetitive actions. He mimicked sounds from morning til evening, the sound of the microwave, or a lawn mower, or a siren or any other sound he'd hear. Often times, we'd be trying to figure out what it was that he was mimicking. He seemingly raged over anything or nothing. When he tried to communicate, it was usually with only one word, such as "orange". We were left to figure out whether he wanted his orange shirt, his orange cup, orange spoon or orange anything else. If we couldn't guess right away, he'd rage. His rages were very violent, and he would physically hurt me. His parents were very apologetic and didn't want me to get hurt, but I kept going.
> 
> ...


Sounds like major improvement is underway, and that IS exciting. I kind of think the border between Sensory Perception/Asperger's/Autism is subjective and has more to do with a doctor's perception and experience than how a child is really functioning. My nephew, for example, had no speech or motor development delays and never engaged in repetitive movements, but when my sister took him in for evaluation at the age of about six he was immediately identified as a kid with Asperger's. That seemed to be based on a history of unusual fears (becoming terrified of his mother when he noticed a large pimple on her face, nightmares after seeing a picture in a story book of Thomas the Tank Engines caught in a tunnel by a rock slide)--also his unusually strong relationship to inanimate objects. For a while there a simple orange was his best friend--he named it, took it everywhere, and actually cried when "Justin" rotted after a week or so and had to be buried in the backyard.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I am very happy to hear and see that your babies are all doing well and progressing. It is interesting to see them all displaying individual personalities even at such a tender age. They are all individuals with their own little quirks and traits. I hope your DIL is recovering, she still has to take it easy and give her body time to recover from the operation.
> 
> I did not know that your eldest son had CP.
> 
> ...


Dil is doing well. Her time is spent pumping breast milk, giving Max attention and being at the hospital with the babies. She'd like to spend more time at the hospital but also has to spend time at home, with Max. So, its been a little depressing, not being able to do everything. She can't drive yet but I've told her I will take her there, any time she wants. My son has gone back to work and is planning to take his time off, when the babies come home. But there are so many things to juggle right now that its been difficult to fit everything in.

Yes, my oldest son has Cerebral Palsy. He was born with a perfect Apgar score. And everything was perfect until he was about four months old. He started holding his right hand in a fist, and it was like it was stuck to his chest. I expressed concern to my pediatrician and he said it was nothing. Month after month, he told me it was because I was right handed and was handing things to his left hand. I should hand things to his right hand. I KNEW something was wrong but I let him convince me, because he was a doctor. Finally at 13 months, I found another doctor who said immediately, "I think he has Cerebral Palsy". He was admitted to the hospital for tests and they found that there was no damage to his brain, but that one side of his brain had stopped growing for a while, and then had started to grow again. They said they didn't know why.

I've always felt that there was something genetic in my family, that linked these neurological disorders. My father had Parkinson's Disease. My son has CP. My other son had seizures as an infant and until he was eight years old. IMO, two of my grandsons have Autism. And two of them have Eczema, which is neurological.

My father was told by doctors, that they believed that Parkinson's was caused by having a particular gene AND being exposed to neurotoxins that triggered it. I believe that. And maybe that gene, when exposed to other neurotoxins, can manifest in other neurological conditions??? Someday, we may know. But in the meantime, I believe that we should limit our exposure to known neurotoxins.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> That's interesting, Nebraska. I too have noticed that a fair number of kids who fall on the autism spectrum seem to have overactive immune systems (allergies, eczema, Crohn's disease). It's be interesting to know if more research has been done to check for a possible connection.


No one will touch that research. That's what Andrew Wakefield was researching. He was thoroughly destroyed by the pharmaceutical companies. They lied about him and destroyed his reputation. Not many people are willing to even look in that direction any longer. Its totally ignored.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Sounds like major improvement is underway, and that IS exciting. I kind of think the border between Sensory Perception/Asperger's/Autism is subjective and has more to do with a doctor's perception and experience than how a child is really functioning. My nephew, for example, had no speech or motor development delays and never engaged in repetitive movements, but when my sister took him in for evaluation at the age of about six he was immediately identified as a kid with Asperger's. That seemed to be based on a history of unusual fears (becoming terrified of his mother when he noticed a large pimple on her face, nightmares after seeing a picture in a story book of Thomas the Tank Engines caught in a tunnel by a rock slide)--also his unusually strong relationship to inanimate objects. For a while there a simple orange was his best friend--he named it, took it everywhere, and actually cried when "Justin" rotted after a week or so and had to be buried in the backyard.


This is very interesting. I've read that Autistic kids don't like to look into people's faces because the changes in facial expression, upset them. I'd like to delve into this further, but I need to go bathe. When hubby gets back from taking his mother grocery shopping, we're going over to my sons. Hubby's going to help him replace a faucet and fix the brakes on his car, and I'm going to watch Max. So, I gotta go. Ttyl


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> This is very interesting. I've read that Autistic kids don't like to look into people's faces because the changes in facial expression, upset them. I'd like to delve into this further, but I need to go bathe. When hubby gets back from taking his mother grocery shopping, we're going over to my sons. Hubby's going to he'll him replace a faucet and fix the brakes on his car, and I'm going to watch Max. So, I gotta go. Ttyl


Sounds like a busy day ahead, Nebraska--catch you later!


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What I'm finding interesting is that they're taking things out of the spectrum. They're going to separate Aspergers from Autism and while my 8 year old grandson has many symptoms of Autism, they're not calling it that, they're calling it Sensory Processing Disorder. He gets occupational and speech therapy. What I'd read, is that the sensory and speech problems were just part of the Autism. I've been researching and studying Autism since before he was born, and I think he has Aspergers. I don't know whether they're breaking apart the spectrum to better help the kids, or if they're doing it to hide the true numbers, of kids with Autism.
> 
> What absolutely astounds me is the changes I've seen in Max. I don't pretend to be an expert in Autism. In my mind, I've just been trying to pull him from this private little world of his, into the world where the rest of us reside. When I first started watching him, he didn't play. We would just engage in repetitive actions. He mimicked sounds from morning til evening, the sound of the microwave, or a lawn mower, or a siren or any other sound he'd hear. Often times, we'd be trying to figure out what it was that he was mimicking. He seemingly raged over anything or nothing. When he tried to communicate, it was usually with only one word, such as "orange". We were left to figure out whether he wanted his orange shirt, his orange cup, orange spoon or orange anything else. If we couldn't guess right away, he'd rage. His rages were very violent, and he would physically hurt me. His parents were very apologetic and didn't want me to get hurt, but I kept going.
> 
> ...


You are doing an excellent job and understand Max's problem. I think you have achieved much with him and you are definitely on the right track. I know schools have changed over the past 35 years and teachers may recognise problems now but I still think you will have to have a quiet word with his headmaster and teachers and explain his problems, even if his parents do not do this.

Some people still do not understand autism and its inherent problems. They still say that the child is naughty and an attention seeker. Kai's oldest brother still does not understand his problem, he still remembers the 2 year old who screamed and screamed and screamed and did not shut his eyes for two days at a time. My eldest son's 2 eldest daughters do understand and both studied the problem at Uni. The eldest went into social work and her experience with Kai helped her immensely. The second girl became an 'early childhood teacher' and her experience with Kai enabled her to write programmes for pre school children. She was invited to the USA about 5 years ago to teach the preschool teachers there about her programmes. She and her husband lived, all expenses paid, in the USA for one year. The authorities wanted to extend her contract for a further year with an option of renewing if after that but she did not like living in the USA and wanted to return to Australia.

I now ask people if they know or understand anything about autism before I tell them Kai has high functioning autism.

When Kai was under 5 he would often name things by the noise they made. Trains were called 'yoy yoy eshu' for example. People thought he did not speak English. I asked him some 30 years later if he remembered this and he replied that the word train was such a dull and stupid name for such a mighty beast as a train and 'yoy yoy eshu' was a better name because that was the name the train made. If you stop and think about it for a minute, that is the sound a steam train makes. We had steam trains still operating on the freight line opposite our property at the time. Kai really did not develop good language skills until he was 6 despite the fact that he had attended three kindergartens when he was 3 and 4 and preschool when he was 5. When he learnt to read he read in context and if he did not recognise a word he substituted his own word and the teacher said that his substitute word was a better word than the one in the text, it was far more descriptive. I did read to him a lot and spent a lot of time explaining things to him. I also substituted alternative words in a story. For example if something was described as 'nice' I would then tell him that yes it was nice but it was also colourful, decorative, ornamental, delicate and so forth. That is how my mother and grandmother taught us, they would not let us just say something was 'nice' we had to give a better explanation. My grandmother was a teacher in the late 1890 and taught at one teacher schools in the country so she taught children from year 1 to year 7 and taught all subjects, including cooking and needlework.

Some autistic people cannot tolerate fluorescent lights as they actually see the flickering of the light when it works. Most people cannot detect that. Some also wear their undergarments and shirts inside out because the seams and tags irritate their skin. Kai is so fussy with his T shirts and boxers, they must be ultra soft or he will not wear them.

Autistic children, and adults, see the world through a totally different perspective. They also seem to be excellent at playing computer and DVD or video games. They seem to grasp the different aspects of the hand controller quicker than others.

But keep up the good work as you definitely understand Max's problems and have his best interests at heart. Once he goes to kindy and on to school you will also have to understand other people's problems and their lack of understanding of autism. Some people are still very prejudiced.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> You are doing an excellent job and understand Max's problem. I think you have achieved much with him and you are definitely on the right track. I know schools have changed over the past 35 years and teachers may recognise problems now but I still think you will have to have a quiet word with his headmaster and teachers and explain his problems, even if his parents do not do this.
> 
> Some people still do not understand autism and its inherent problems. They still say that the child is naughty and an attention seeker. Kai's oldest brother still does not understand his problem, he still remembers the 2 year old who screamed and screamed and screamed and did not shut his eyes for two days at a time. My eldest son's 2 eldest daughters do understand and both studied the problem at Uni. The eldest went into social work and her experience with Kai helped her immensely. The second girl became an 'early childhood teacher' and her experience with Kai enabled her to write programmes for pre school children. She was invited to the USA about 5 years ago to teach the preschool teachers there about her programmes. She and her husband lived, all expenses paid, in the USA for one year. The authorities wanted to extend her contract for a further year with an option of renewing if after that but she did not like living in the USA and wanted to return to Australia.
> 
> ...


So true, Evie. The stereotypically austic child who's non-verbal and spends his or her time rocking in the corner seems a lot easier for people to understand--it's the higher-functioning kids who really get the short end of the stick as far as caring and compassion go. We have a couple of autistic kids in the family--I've known them since they were babies, and even I get frustrated when they can't seem to control their behavior and have a meltdown. They seem so normal much of the time it's really easy to forget that their brains are wired differently.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What I'm finding interesting is that they're taking things out of the spectrum. They're going to separate Aspergers from Autism and while my 8 year old grandson has many symptoms of Autism, they're not calling it that, they're calling it Sensory Processing Disorder. He gets occupational and speech therapy. What I'd read, is that the sensory and speech problems were just part of the Autism. I've been researching and studying Autism since before he was born, and I think he has Aspergers. I don't know whether they're breaking apart the spectrum to better help the kids, or if they're doing it to hide the true numbers, of kids with Autism.
> 
> What absolutely astounds me is the changes I've seen in Max. I don't pretend to be an expert in Autism. In my mind, I've just been trying to pull him from this private little world of his, into the world where the rest of us reside. When I first started watching him, he didn't play. We would just engage in repetitive actions. He mimicked sounds from morning til evening, the sound of the microwave, or a lawn mower, or a siren or any other sound he'd hear. Often times, we'd be trying to figure out what it was that he was mimicking. He seemingly raged over anything or nothing. When he tried to communicate, it was usually with only one word, such as "orange". We were left to figure out whether he wanted his orange shirt, his orange cup, orange spoon or orange anything else. If we couldn't guess right away, he'd rage. His rages were very violent, and he would physically hurt me. His parents were very apologetic and didn't want me to get hurt, but I kept going.
> 
> ...


==========================
Nebs - I am so impressed how you have managed to bring him so far . A lot of it is a mixture of love and common sense. How fortunate he is to have you there covering his back! It is giving him a life in the real word and he is not in the dark thanks to you. YOu might have to fight for him. I am just sorry that his parents don't take the time to listen to what you say and see how he is doing.

I am so more hopeful about him after reading your post above. I admire you and what you have done and are doing.

As my Nana said - 'you are earning your wings'.

Remember, every one of us are behind you and we all are your friends including me. I know some others don't understand that but you know it is true.

It doesn't matter whether we agree about Politics, we like each other and I feel very protective and full of admiration for you. I am one of the Aunties, or whatever you wish to call us.

Give him a special hug and know we are here for you to vent. Take care of him and yourself, and see the wee babies as much as you can. Shirley


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, Camacho! They are perfect, right down to their tiny little fingernails. But my favorite is their tiny little ears. And they do all have lots of hair. I hope they get Max's hair, especially the girls. It's so pretty and curly. When he was a baby, people mistook him for a girl even when dressed in blue, because he was so pretty.


Iwill put them on LOLL as I think the conversation here is well worth carrying on.

sorry, I answered the post asking me to post my pictures.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> You are doing an excellent job and understand Max's problem. I think you have achieved much with him and you are definitely on the right track. I know schools have changed over the past 35 years and teachers may recognise problems now but I still think you will have to have a quiet word with his headmaster and teachers and explain his problems, even if his parents do not do this.
> 
> Some people still do not understand autism and its inherent problems. They still say that the child is naughty and an attention seeker. Kai's oldest brother still does not understand his problem, he still remembers the 2 year old who screamed and screamed and screamed and did not shut his eyes for two days at a time. My eldest son's 2 eldest daughters do understand and both studied the problem at Uni. The eldest went into social work and her experience with Kai helped her immensely. The second girl became an 'early childhood teacher' and her experience with Kai enabled her to write programmes for pre school children. She was invited to the USA about 5 years ago to teach the preschool teachers there about her programmes. She and her husband lived, all expenses paid, in the USA for one year. The authorities wanted to extend her contract for a further year with an option of renewing if after that but she did not like living in the USA and wanted to return to Australia.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Eve!

I have both sympathy and empathy for you. I've had but a mere taste of what you've gone through. At least today, more and more people are becoming familiar with Autism. I can't even imagine how difficult it was for you, with nowhere to turn and no one to understand what you were going through. I admire you more than words can express. You did it on your own! You never gave up and gave your son what he needed, no matter how hard it was. IMO, mothers of disabled children are blessed in a way that others cannot understand. When our children walk and talk and do all of the things that other mothers take for granted, we experience pure unadulterated joy.

Thank you for sharing your stories. They help those of us who are just beginning the journey.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> So true, Evie. The stereotypically austic child who's non-verbal and spends his or her time rocking in the corner seems a lot easier for people to understand--it's the higher-functioning kids who really get the short end of the stick as far as caring and compassion go. We have a couple of autistic kids in the family--I've known them since they were babies, and even I get frustrated when they can't seem to control their behavior and have a meltdown. They seem so normal much of the time it's really easy to forget that their brains are wired differently.


I think that things are going to change. Autism is affecting so many children now, that soon all of us will have a loved one or aquaintance, who's been affected. People will become more understanding because they'll have personal knowledge. If you think about it, 1 in 68. Soon all of us will have a child, grandchild, niece or nephew with Autism OR our friends will. I don't think any of us will remain untouched.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> ==========================
> Nebs - I am so impressed how you have managed to bring him so far . A lot of it is a mixture of love and common sense. How fortunate he is to have you there covering his back! It is giving him a life in the real word and he is not in the dark thanks to you. YOu might have to fight for him. I am just sorry that his parents don't take the time to listen to what you say and see how he is doing.
> 
> I am so more hopeful about him after reading your post above. I admire you and what you have done and are doing.
> ...


Thank you, Shirley! My son and dil have changed the way they deal with Max. They've seen the success I've had and are doing the same things. Several weeks ago, they were at my house and Max started to melt down. My son's first instinct was to restrain him, like he used to. My dil said to him, "Why don't you put him in the chair, like your mom does?". He did but when Max was squirming and lying down in the chair, he started to put conditions on it. I said, " No! He can do whatever he wants as long as he's on the chair, and he doesn't need your permission to get up. As soon as he's calmed himself down, he can get up. It's not like "time out" used for punishment. It's not punishment at all. It's just time for him to control his behavior and calm himself down". Its been working very well for all of us.

So, while my dil is not averse to using these new skills, she doesn't want people to think he has Autism. She doesn't want him "labeled". IMO, nothing will prevent him from being " labeled". It's only a question of what that label will be. IMO, a label of Autism would be better than having a label of naughty and strange. I think that in time, things will work themselves out. We'll all keep working with him and when he goes to preschool, they'll probably be forced to deal with it.

Shirley, I understand very well, that while we disagree on political issues, I know that all of you are here for me, when I need it. I also know that when you and I tangle, you always express your caring and concern afterward. I appreciate that. You've prayed for my family, and that means a lot to me. You've asked about all of my loved ones. I know that you care even when I frustrate you. IMO, the true definition of a friend is someone who's there for you, even when they're not happy with you. That would be you! Thank you for giving me the opportunity to vent. Sometimes, it's just necessary.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you, Shirley! My son and dil have changed the way they deal with Max. They've seen the success I've had and are doing the same things. Several weeks ago, they were at my house and Max started to melt down. My son's first instinct was to restrain him, like he used to. My dil said to him, "Why don't you put him in the chair, like your mom does?". He did but when Max was squirming and lying down in the chair, he started to put conditions on it. I said, " No! He can do whatever he wants as long as he's on the chair, and he doesn't need your permission to get up. As soon as he's calmed himself down, he can get up. It's not like "time out" used for punishment.
> 
> It's not punishment at all. It's just time for him to control his behavior and calm himself down". Its been working very well for all of us.
> 
> ...


=============================
I am going to try for both our sakes to just not answer, but I wish we could have a conversation. However as I said before, I do know how nearly impossible it is for us to meet on middle ground. I have had a lot of people in my life that I don't agree with about some things but they are life long friends. Sometimes we discuss our differences, other times we try to just leave it alone. It is easier to do face to face than online as it is easy to express and sometimes overexpress our opinions. I just get frustrated, as you must too.

I don't really care what others think as I know you and I have a friendship that is just as deep as other friendships.

I don't believe in grudges. I never have. I was taught by the person who had more influence on my life than anyone else.That you can disagree and let it go by changing the subject. I have learned to do that. Pat and I have disagreements but then he says something funny and makes me laugh and I can do the same with him. Neither of us ever go to sleep mad at each other but we have had some really strong disagreements. I respect him more than any one else in the world, and he feels the same about me. So the few disagreements don't matter although sometimes they are important and are not always solved. (We are individuals but have never let our differences hurt us).

By the way I didn't post the pictures I promised on the other thread.
I have to reduce their size but I have a group I will post tomorrow. I also mentioned I had a not too nice 'Adventure' so I am a bit weary. I am fine now though, and will tell you guys all about it tomorrow.

It is early but I am really tired so will post tomorrow. Have a great time with the babies. Has there been any idea given as to when even one of them will go home?

I also want to mention, in this " book"that I am glad Max's parents are starting to understand what you are accomplishing. Carry on the good work. We are friends and I applaud you. Shirley


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

The tiny feet and toes always get to me.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thanks, Camacho! They are perfect, right down to their tiny little fingernails. But my favorite is their tiny little ears. And they do all have lots of hair. I hope they get Max's hair, especially the girls. It's so pretty and curly. When he was a baby, people mistook him for a girl even when dressed in blue, because he was so pretty.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks to a loving, patient grandma.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What I'm finding interesting is that they're taking things out of the spectrum. They're going to separate Aspergers from Autism and while my 8 year old grandson has many symptoms of Autism, they're not calling it that, they're calling it Sensory Processing Disorder. He gets occupational and speech therapy. What I'd read, is that the sensory and speech problems were just part of the Autism. I've been researching and studying Autism since before he was born, and I think he has Aspergers. I don't know whether they're breaking apart the spectrum to better help the kids, or if they're doing it to hide the true numbers, of kids with Autism.
> 
> What absolutely astounds me is the changes I've seen in Max. I don't pretend to be an expert in Autism. In my mind, I've just been trying to pull him from this private little world of his, into the world where the rest of us reside. When I first started watching him, he didn't play. We would just engage in repetitive actions. He mimicked sounds from morning til evening, the sound of the microwave, or a lawn mower, or a siren or any other sound he'd hear. Often times, we'd be trying to figure out what it was that he was mimicking. He seemingly raged over anything or nothing. When he tried to communicate, it was usually with only one word, such as "orange". We were left to figure out whether he wanted his orange shirt, his orange cup, orange spoon or orange anything else. If we couldn't guess right away, he'd rage. His rages were very violent, and he would physically hurt me. His parents were very apologetic and didn't want me to get hurt, but I kept going.
> 
> ...


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I understand your DIL's fear of labeling. IMHO getting Max as much help as possible NOW will help control his meltdowns and make his differences less noticeable later.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you, Shirley! My son and dil have changed the way they deal with Max. They've seen the success I've had and are doing the same things. Several weeks ago, they were at my house and Max started to melt down. My son's first instinct was to restrain him, like he used to. My dil said to him, "Why don't you put him in the chair, like your mom does?". He did but when Max was squirming and lying down in the chair, he started to put conditions on it. I said, " No! He can do whatever he wants as long as he's on the chair, and he doesn't need your permission to get up. As soon as he's calmed himself down, he can get up. It's not like "time out" used for punishment. It's not punishment at all. It's just time for him to control his behavior and calm himself down". Its been working very well for all of us.
> 
> So, while my dil is not averse to using these new skills, she doesn't want people to think he has Autism. She doesn't want him "labeled". IMO, nothing will prevent him from being " labeled". It's only a question of what that label will be. IMO, a label of Autism would be better than having a label of naughty and strange. I think that in time, things will work themselves out. We'll all keep working with him and when he goes to preschool, they'll probably be forced to deal with it.
> 
> Shirley, I understand very well, that while we disagree on political issues, I know that all of you are here for me, when I need it. I also know that when you and I tangle, you always express your caring and concern afterward. I appreciate that. You've prayed for my family, and that means a lot to me. You've asked about all of my loved ones. I know that you care even when I frustrate you. IMO, the true definition of a friend is someone who's there for you, even when they're not happy with you. That would be you! Thank you for giving me the opportunity to vent. Sometimes, it's just necessary.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What I'm finding interesting is that they're taking things out of the spectrum. They're going to separate Aspergers from Autism and while my 8 year old grandson has many symptoms of Autism, they're not calling it that, they're calling it Sensory Processing Disorder. He gets occupational and speech therapy. What I'd read, is that the sensory and speech problems were just part of the Autism. I've been researching and studying Autism since before he was born, and I think he has Aspergers. I don't know whether they're breaking apart the spectrum to better help the kids, or if they're doing it to hide the true numbers, of kids with Autism.
> 
> What absolutely astounds me is the changes I've seen in Max. I don't pretend to be an expert in Autism. In my mind, I've just been trying to pull him from this private little world of his, into the world where the rest of us reside. When I first started watching him, he didn't play. We would just engage in repetitive actions. He mimicked sounds from morning til evening, the sound of the microwave, or a lawn mower, or a siren or any other sound he'd hear. Often times, we'd be trying to figure out what it was that he was mimicking. He seemingly raged over anything or nothing. When he tried to communicate, it was usually with only one word, such as "orange". We were left to figure out whether he wanted his orange shirt, his orange cup, orange spoon or orange anything else. If we couldn't guess right away, he'd rage. His rages were very violent, and he would physically hurt me. His parents were very apologetic and didn't want me to get hurt, but I kept going.
> 
> ...


The interventions you have been doing with Max in a calm one on one environment is so important. Seeing that he is able to control his behavior is indeed a huge piece of progress.

We know a family whose 15 year old daughter is autistic. When she was two and three she was totally out of control. She ran wild in Temple, screamed at odd times, and threw herself on the floor in tantrums.

But they had her in a small preschool where she got one on one therapy, then as she got more self control she was with a small group with two other children at about the same level of progress. The three learned to interact with age mates.

By the time she was in about 5th or 6th grade she was mainstreamed but still under the auspices of special services. She had a bat mitzvah and read her Hebrew and made her speech; if you hadn't known her "when" you would not have thought she was any different from any other of her age mates. She has friends and seems to be on her way to a pleasant adulthood.

I hope Max finds the same comforts and successes in life.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> I understand your DIL's fear of labeling. IMHO getting Max as much help as possible NOW will help control his meltdowns and make his differences less noticeable later.


One of the problems with "labeling" is involved with the funding school special services receives per labeled child.

Once a child is classified it is nearly impossible getting the label removed at the time the child is ready to be mainstreamed. And with high functioning Autism spectrum people that is especially vexing.

As with the young lady I mentioned in a previous post, she is doing very well now, but will probably be classified throughout high school whether she needs to be or not because of the funding issue. She is fortunate in that her parents are quite wealthy and can get her private counseling and find an appropriate college when the time comes. And have the influence to affect how she is treated in public school. Unfair, but the facts of life.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Things are heating up for FIFA with a story from the BBC who have obtained evidence of the financials of Jack Warner (ex Vice President) which clearly show how he used $10,000,000.00 meant for South Africa for his and his crony's benefit.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-33039014


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> The interventions you have been doing with Max in a calm one on one environment is so important. Seeing that he is able to control his behavior is indeed a huge piece of progress.
> 
> We know a family whose 15 year old daughter is autistic. When she was two and three she was totally out of control. She ran wild in Temple, screamed at odd times, and threw herself on the floor in tantrums.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your story. It comforts me and gives me hope.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> One of the problems with "labeling" is involved with the funding school special services receives per labeled child.
> 
> Once a child is classified it is nearly impossible getting the label removed at the time the child is ready to be mainstreamed. And with high functioning Autism spectrum people that is especially vexing.
> 
> As with the young lady I mentioned in a previous post, she is doing very well now, but will probably be classified throughout high school whether she needs to be or not because of the funding issue. She is fortunate in that her parents are quite wealthy and can get her private counseling and find an appropriate college when the time comes. And have the influence to affect how she is treated in public school. Unfair, but the facts of life.


My oldest son was diagnosed with Cerebral Palsy when he was just over a year old. Soon after, we received a letter from our school district saying that he qualified for free special education preschool. At that time, I didn't want him labeled. I didn't want him to think he was handicapped. He did everything the other kids did, he just did it differently. My husband put straps on the right pedal of his tricycles and bicycles, to hold his foot on, and when he was older, my husband made him a special one handed Atari controller. His occupational therapist gave us exercises to do at home, to try and keep his hand open. She also showed us how to work with him on tying his shoes and zipping his coat, one handed. We didn't need special services.

However, once he entered school, there were things he couldn't do. So we decided to go the route of services. It was a very good decision. Many times, we avoided having to deal with phys ed teachers or others who just didn't get it. A kid with Cerebral Palsy, can't do chin ups, push ups or climb a rope. We had our occupational therapist to step in and insist that standards be adjusted.

When we moved to Wichita, KS, we came up against a brick wall. They had the worst schools and the worst special education department! We moved there when my son was entering 6th grade, which was still in the elementary school. We had no problems that year, because our principal had a son with the very same type of CP. He was very kind and made sure that everyone else was as well. But when he entered 7th grade, we met resistance. My son had signed up for drafting. Almost all of the boys took drafting. Without informing me, they took him out of drafting and put him in chorus. He came home very upset. He didn't like singing and couldn't carry a tune. I went right up to the school and talked to the principal. She told me he couldn't take drafting because he wouldn't be able to draw the lines. I said, it didn't matter whether he could draw the lines or not! He wanted to learn about drafting. She refused. I said that as a handcapped child, he had rights. She said, "We don't call them handicapped anymore! It's degrading! We call them disabled!". I told her, " My son is not DISabled! He is ABLE to do many things! He just DOES them with a handicap!". I fought it all the way to the top of the special education department and then, the district. They still refused. I then contacted an advocacy group who sent the school district a letter saying if they didn't allow my son to take drafting, they would sue them and win! They also told the school district that they had to provide my son, a computer and a computer drafting program. At that point, they were willing to negotiate. We told them, we had our own computer. But they said they didn't have anyone who knew how to use a computer drafting program (PCs were very new). So, we said if they let him take the class, we wouldn't sue them. He took the class and his OT had the idea of taping his paper to his desk, so it wouldn't move around. I thought he did very well, but the teacher just gave him straight Cs. Without the label, he wouldn't have had any rights. In our case, having the label helped him.

Neither did the label, hinder his getting into college. Besides drafting and PE, he got straight As in all honor's classes. He got a full ride scholarship for Debate from the Pierre LaClede Honor's College, which is part of the University of Missouri system.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> My oldest son was diagnosed with Cerebral Palsy when he was just over a year old. Soon after, we received a letter from our school district saying that he qualified for free special education preschool. At that time, I didn't want him labeled. I didn't want him to think he was handicapped. He did everything the other kids did, he just did it differently. My husband put straps on the right pedal of his tricycles and bicycles, to hold his foot on, and when he was older, my husband made him a special one handed Atari controller. His occupational therapist gave us exercises to do at home, to try and keep his hand open. She also showed us how to work with him on tying his shoes and zipping his coat, one handed. We didn't need special services.
> 
> However, once he entered school, there were things he couldn't do. So we decided to go the route of services. It was a very good decision. Many times, we avoided having to deal with phys ed teachers or others who just didn't get it. A kid with Cerebral Palsy, can't do chin ups, push ups or climb a rope. We had our occupational therapist to step in and insist that standards be adjusted.
> 
> ...


I am sorry you and your eldest son had such a run in with the principal and certain teachers at school but he proved them wrong. He went on to achieve. It seems you already know about difficult teachers and their 'I know better than you' attitude. When Kai started school he had not been diagnosed with autism but had been on epilepsy medication for temporal lobe epilepsy since he was four weeks old. He took Tegretol every morning and evening. Temporal lobe epilepsy does not manifest itself with grand mal fits but behaviour very similar to autism, I guess that is why he was not diagnosed with autism until he was 10. The headmaster and his teachers knew about his condition but one day when he was 5 years old and in grade 1 the headmaster caned him for having a meltdown. When we found out about the caning we immediately went down to the headmaster and asked why he had caned a child who suffered from temporal lobe epilepsy when the child was having what could be termed a temporal lobe fit. I told him that I had already written to the Education Department, which I had as we lived 450 km from Perth it had to be a letter, and that I was going to contact the press and let them know that he had caned an epileptic child. Boy, did that headmaster apologise and back down. He tried to squirm out of it by saying that he did not know about Kai's condition but I reminded him that I had not only told him verbally but that I had put it in writing and that he should check Kai's file to see if the letter was there.

We had a similar experience in Queensland with one uppity teacher. Kai suffers from migraine and has done so since he was about 4. It was diagnosed by his paediatrician. We were worried about him complaining about headaches and not being able to stand lights and being horribly sick when he had a headache. The paediatrician said he had classic migraine and had pre headache visual disturbances. If he took headache tablets when he had the warning signs it would lessen the severity of the attacks. The tablets taken at this stage did lessen the severity. When he started school he always had 2 headache tablets in his school bag to take if he knew a migraine was coming on. The Mt Barker headmaster suggested he keep the tablets in is bag and not tell anyone. He had no problem in the three and a half years he was at that school. When he started school in Rosewood, Queensland I also told the headmaster about the tablets. Unfortunately he confiscated the tablets because he thought other children would take the 2 headache tablets and swallow them. There were only 2 tablets that is all. He said if Kai knew he has going to have a migraine he could ask his teachers for the tablets. OK I did not entirely agree but I went along with it. Kai used to come home for lunch as we did not live far from the school and one day I said to my ex "Kai is not home for lunch yet and it is over half an hour into the lunch break". Ex said he would walk down to the school and see if he was OK. He found him in the sick room almost semi conscious and in a lot of pain with a full migraine. The sick room was a tiny, airless, enclosed space with an old bed in it, located underneath the concrete stairway to the second storey. More like a broom cupboard than a sick room. He had asked the teacher for his tablets and she had refused to give them to give them to him because, according to her, children do not suffer from headaches especially migraine. She said he was just pulling a swifty. Good one Mrs Brown, pulling a swifty and that is why he spent the next two days in bed with the migraine. She would not agree with me even when I had the doctor write a letter explaining Kai's migraine attacks were genuine. I gave Kai another 2 tablets and told him to keep them in his bag and not tell anyone, especially Mrs Brown or the Headmaster. We transferred him to another school shortly after that, even though he had to catch a bus to the second school.

Some teachers honestly just do not have a clue, they have a particular mindset and think they know more than the parents. At least you know from experience about difficulties you may have with Max's teachers.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

I just read this on a news update. It is more than shocking. The policeman is definitely overreacting and needs more than counselling to control his out of control behaviour. My immediate reaction was that he needs a good horsewhipping. Honestly is definitely looks as if the coppers in the USA are out of control. Pulling a gun then sitting on a young girl's back! It is lucky that no one was seriously hurt or even shot and killed.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-08/us-police-officer-placed-on-leave-after-pulling-gun-on-teenagers/6529090


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I just read this on a news update. It is more than shocking. The policeman is definitely overreacting and needs more than counselling to control his out of control behaviour. My immediate reaction was that he needs a good horsewhipping. Honestly is definitely looks as if the coppers in the USA are out of control. Pulling a gun then sitting on a young girl's back! It is lucky that no one was seriously hurt or even shot and killed.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-08/us-police-officer-placed-on-leave-after-pulling-gun-on-teenagers/6529090


While WE might think he needs counseling to control his out of control behavior, he reacted exactly as he was trained to react. This is what our government wants. They've been having the military, work with and train our police forces. They've equipped our police forces with military weapons and armoured vehicles. They actually practice shooting, using targets that portray pregnant women, children and the elderly. They don't want them to think, they want them to shoot. They are being trained to see US as the enemy. There is a war against the American people, especially black people.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Bravo. You have to pick your battles carefully. Some are worth it. Others aren't. You seem to understand the difference.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> My oldest son was diagnosed with Cerebral Palsy when he was just over a year old. Soon after, we received a letter from our school district saying that he qualified for free special education preschool. At that time, I didn't want him labeled. I didn't want him to think he was handicapped. He did everything the other kids did, he just did it differently. My husband put straps on the right pedal of his tricycles and bicycles, to hold his foot on, and when he was older, my husband made him a special one handed Atari controller. His occupational therapist gave us exercises to do at home, to try and keep his hand open. She also showed us how to work with him on tying his shoes and zipping his coat, one handed. We didn't need special services.
> 
> However, once he entered school, there were things he couldn't do. So we decided to go the route of services. It was a very good decision. Many times, we avoided having to deal with phys ed teachers or others who just didn't get it. A kid with Cerebral Palsy, can't do chin ups, push ups or climb a rope. We had our occupational therapist to step in and insist that standards be adjusted.
> 
> ...


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Just Beachy said:


> Evidently this thread is no longer about "Things {that} are heating up in the world".


Just Beachy
the subject matter being discussed at present is very important and I feel that it should get its own thread.

The heating up in the World is becoming more and more important and deserves attention.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Just Beachy said:


> Evidently this thread is no longer about "Things {that} are heating up in the world".


I like to bring current events to the table every now and then. I don't know many people here with whom I associate who can discuss what's going on in the world because they don't bother to inform themselves and they really don't care. It's frustrating because to me, world events end up impacting on us here in Australia as they do everywhere else and the idea that Australia is so far away from the rest of the world that it doesn't matter is dangerous.

At least here, everyone seems well informed and sometimes discussion is very interesting and I learn a lot.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I just read this on a news update. It is more than shocking. The policeman is definitely overreacting and needs more than counselling to control his out of control behaviour. My immediate reaction was that he needs a good horsewhipping. Honestly is definitely looks as if the coppers in the USA are out of control. Pulling a gun then sitting on a young girl's back! It is lucky that no one was seriously hurt or even shot and killed.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-08/us-police-officer-placed-on-leave-after-pulling-gun-on-teenagers/6529090


I think police all over the world are out of control and it seems to be getting worse as time goes on. I remember people commenting on the militarization of the police force in the USA and how it's unnecessary but I think police forces are responding to society's changing values as they see fit rather than realistically. Seems they're a law unto themselves and that's wrong.

Who's policing the police? No one in my opinion.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> My oldest son was diagnosed with Cerebral Palsy when he was just over a year old. Soon after, we received a letter from our school district saying that he qualified for free special education preschool. At that time, I didn't want him labeled. I didn't want him to think he was handicapped. He did everything the other kids did, he just did it differently. My husband put straps on the right pedal of his tricycles and bicycles, to hold his foot on, and when he was older, my husband made him a special one handed Atari controller. His occupational therapist gave us exercises to do at home, to try and keep his hand open. She also showed us how to work with him on tying his shoes and zipping his coat, one handed. We didn't need special services.
> 
> However, once he entered school, there were things he couldn't do. So we decided to go the route of services. It was a very good decision. Many times, we avoided having to deal with phys ed teachers or others who just didn't get it. A kid with Cerebral Palsy, can't do chin ups, push ups or climb a rope. We had our occupational therapist to step in and insist that standards be adjusted.
> 
> ...


His largest blessing is to have his parents as his strong advocates who did not let themselves be cowed. Being a "tiger mom" may not win you love from a school district but it is the strongest tool in support of a child who is being marginalized by the establishment. Good for you!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

We all learn a lot by sharing, and it's a nice way to find like-minded people. I think it's just handy to have a gathering place.



Wombatnomore said:


> I like to bring current events to the table every now and then. I don't know many people here with whom I associate who can discuss what's going on in the world because they don't bother to inform themselves and they really don't care. It's frustrating because to me, world events end up impacting on us here in Australia as they do everywhere else and the idea that Australia is so far away from the rest of the world that it doesn't matter is dangerous.
> 
> At least here, everyone seems well informed and sometimes discussion is very interesting and I learn a lot.


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Red letter day here:
David was up and driving himself crazy getting the house ready for the fire inspection and all the other things we have had to do over the last few days, and Jonathan volunteered to drive himself to his appointment with his psychiatrist this morning.
Then this morning two men from the moving company came by to help us pack, and when I told them that Jonathan locks his bedroom door when he is not there, would be out from 11 to 1, and is very particular about his stuff because he is autistic/Asperger, one of the moving guys smiled and said, "I understand," and he and Jonathan worked very well together in Jonathan's room for quite a while today. What a blessing!
KFN and Eve and .. I'm losing track here, I admire you as mothers and grandmothers and teachers of children with these special needs. 
That video of the cop and the teenager was nauseating.

We are moving out of here tomorrow. Whew!
Our new house is scheduled to be set on its foundation this Thursday. I will ask more knowledgeable people how to post pictures.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> While WE might think he needs counseling to control his out of control behavior, he reacted exactly as he was trained to react. This is what our government wants. They've been having the military, work with and train our police forces. They've equipped our police forces with military weapons and armoured vehicles. They actually practice shooting, using targets that portray pregnant women, children and the elderly. They don't want them to think, they want them to shoot. They are being trained to see US as the enemy. There is a war against the American people, especially black people.


Eve - I think it is racist based, and that the police departments are not trained properly and they are given army weapons but no training Most police departments are hired by individual cities and towns, from what I understand. I think this has been happening for many years but now it is being photographed. They can't hide what they are doing like they did before pictures were being taken that show the truth.

That poor little l4 year old girl was begging someone to get her Momma. What justifies the way she was treated, she had a bikini on - what could she have done to warrant that treatment?

I Pray knitter from Nebraska is wrong.

Do the people on this thread agree with Nebraska that it is deliberately planned by your Government, or is it just me that questions this? Please answer.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I think police all over the world are out of control and it seems to be getting worse as time goes on. I remember people commenting on the militarization of the police force in the USA and how it's unnecessary but I think police forces are responding to society's changing values as they see fit rather than realistically. Seems they're a law unto themselves and that's wrong.
> 
> Who's policing the police? No one in my opinion.


Wombatnomore
Those we turned to help for in the past, we now have to fear. Much too much anger among the Police Force.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Wombatnomore
> Those we turned to help for in the past, we now have to fear. Much too much anger among the Police Force.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Over 300 former and current female Police members have started a class action suit against the Royal Canadian Mounted police accusing the members of sexual harrassment and it was announced this week.

Our moral compass around the world seems to have disappeared. Scary.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I like to bring current events to the table every now and then. I don't know many people here with whom I associate who can discuss what's going on in the world because they don't bother to inform themselves and they really don't care. It's frustrating because to me, world events end up impacting on us here in Australia as they do everywhere else and the idea that Australia is so far away from the rest of the world that it doesn't matter is dangerous.
> 
> At least here, everyone seems well informed and sometimes discussion is very interesting and I learn a lot.


With the internet, instant photography, communication instant, no one is very far from the rest of the world. The world is getting smaller and smaller. A woman I know (flight attendant, travels back and forth to Sydney from Vancouver. She is gone for 3 days for a round trip. So you aren't that far away from us. If I left now I would be in Sydney tomorrow morning (it is 4 pm here on Monday) .


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> With the internet, instant photography, communication instant, no one is very far from the rest of the world. The world is getting smaller and smaller. A woman I know (flight attendant, travels back and forth to Sydney from Vancouver. She is gone for 3 days for a round trip. So you aren't that far away from us. If I left now I would be in Sydney tomorrow morning (it is 4 pm here on Monday) .


Among the factors making me care so much for my friends here, you are intelligent, informed, and well spoken and we can have meaningful discussions. Many of my face to face contacts don't talk about anything really profound, and here even if I only read and don't comment, I am involved in discussions that increase my knowledge and expand my horizons. I have become more thoughtful and I hope more sensitive learning the perspectives of my friends in other countries and with different priorities. Even if my aging body stays put, my mind has become a world traveler.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Camacho said:


> Red letter day here:
> David was up and driving himself crazy getting the house ready for the fire inspection and all the other things we have had to do over the last few days, and Jonathan volunteered to drive himself to his appointment with his psychiatrist this morning.
> Then this morning two men from the moving company came by to help us pack, and when I told them that Jonathan locks his bedroom door when he is not there, would be out from 11 to 1, and is very particular about his stuff because he is autistic/Asperger, one of the moving guys smiled and said, "I understand," and he and Jonathan worked very well together in Jonathan's room for quite a while today. What a blessing!
> KFN and Eve and .. I'm losing track here, I admire you as mothers and grandmothers and teachers of children with these special needs.
> ...


Tomorrow already? I hope it goes as well as today apparently did.

The mover must have a close relative on the spectrum to understand so quickly and to know how to speak to Jonno. And see how Jonno comes up to the mark when you need him to.

And here I am, headed to Massachusetts Thursday, but only for a long weekend. You're headed for a whole new life. Best of luck, sweet one.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
> 
> Over 300 former and current female Police members have started a class action suit against the Royal Canadian Mounted police accusing the members of sexual harrassment and it was announced this week.
> 
> Our moral compass around the world seems to have disappeared. Scary.


The Mounties are sexual harrassers? What is this world coming to?


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Among the factors making me care so much for my friends here, you are intelligent, informed, and well spoken and we can have meaningful discussions. Many of my face to face contacts don't talk about anything really profound, and here even if I only read and don't comment, I am involved in discussions that increase my knowledge and expand my horizons. I have become more thoughtful and I hope more sensitive learning the perspectives of my friends in other countries and with different priorities. Even if my aging body stays put, my mind has become a world traveler.


You're right again, as usual. It's good to talk about things other than shopping and cooking (though I baked a champion apple challah last week, which nobody dared to put cream cheese on.)


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> Bravo. You have to pick your battles carefully. Some are worth it. Others aren't. You seem to understand the difference.


Thanks, Dame!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I think police all over the world are out of control and it seems to be getting worse as time goes on. I remember people commenting on the militarization of the police force in the USA and how it's unnecessary but I think police forces are responding to society's changing values as they see fit rather than realistically. Seems they're a law unto themselves and that's wrong.
> 
> Who's policing the police? No one in my opinion.


If the police are merely responding to changes in societal values, what caused those changes? Opinions, anybody? And can values be reversed or are they destined to decline?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> His largest blessing is to have his parents as his strong advocates who did not let themselves be cowed. Being a "tiger mom" may not win you love from a school district but it is the strongest tool in support of a child who is being marginalized by the establishment. Good for you!


Thank you, Marilyn!

I'm not sure though, if I could be called a "tiger mom". Each of my children were very different and I always let them seek out what interested them most.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> We all learn a lot by sharing, and it's a nice way to find like-minded people. I think it's just handy to have a gathering place.


What I like is finding NON like minded people. I've learned a lot about how liberals think. Some of it I agree with. I used to think that we were light years apart. Now I've come to think that we all want the same basic things. We just disagree on how to get them.

It's hard to get into these discussions in person. No one wants to offend, so anything of import gets pushed aside. It's kind of sad really. We don't like it when our politicians refuse to sit down, to talk, to compromise, but in our real lives, we can be the same. People need to talk. They need to try to understand each other. It IS handy to have a gathering place where we can do that.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Camacho said:


> Red letter day here:
> David was up and driving himself crazy getting the house ready for the fire inspection and all the other things we have had to do over the last few days, and Jonathan volunteered to drive himself to his appointment with his psychiatrist this morning.
> Then this morning two men from the moving company came by to help us pack, and when I told them that Jonathan locks his bedroom door when he is not there, would be out from 11 to 1, and is very particular about his stuff because he is autistic/Asperger, one of the moving guys smiled and said, "I understand," and he and Jonathan worked very well together in Jonathan's room for quite a while today. What a blessing!
> KFN and Eve and .. I'm losing track here, I admire you as mothers and grandmothers and teachers of children with these special needs.
> ...


How exciting! Finally, things are starting to happen. Have you picked all of your interiors, countertops, lighting etc? I can't wait til you finally get to move in. Its been a long time in coming.

I'm so glad that Jonathan is handling the move well. I'm also glad that he's participating. That will make the transition smoother. I think it's so cool that the moving guy understood about Autism, and worked well with Jonathan. I tell you, I think the day is coming when we'll all be touched by Autism, in one way or another. It gives me hope for mankind that strangers can be kind, to strangers with Autism.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Eve - I think it is racist based, and that the police departments are not trained properly and they are given army weapons but no training Most police departments are hired by individual cities and towns, from what I understand. I think this has been happening for many years but now it is being photographed. They can't hide what they are doing like they did before pictures were being taken that show the truth.
> 
> That poor little l4 year old girl was begging someone to get her Momma. What justifies the way she was treated, she had a bikini on - what could she have done to warrant that treatment?
> 
> ...


I'd like to think that you're right except that, I know that our police departments are not only receiving military equipment, but are actually training with the military. And apparently, according to this Daily Kos article, the New York City police are training with the Israeli military. Its an interesting article. 
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/12/1044508/-Are-U-S-Police-training-with-the-Israeli-Military

Here's a Newsweek article explaining how all of this started.

http://www.newsweek.com/how-americas-police-became-army-1033-program-264537


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
> 
> Over 300 former and current female Police members have started a class action suit against the Royal Canadian Mounted police accusing the members of sexual harrassment and it was announced this week.
> 
> Our moral compass around the world seems to have disappeared. Scary.


I agree with your last sentence. Anybody have an opinion on WHY our moral compass has disappeared?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Among the factors making me care so much for my friends here, you are intelligent, informed, and well spoken and we can have meaningful discussions. Many of my face to face contacts don't talk about anything really profound, and here even if I only read and don't comment, I am involved in discussions that increase my knowledge and expand my horizons. I have become more thoughtful and I hope more sensitive learning the perspectives of my friends in other countries and with different priorities. Even if my aging body stays put, my mind has become a world traveler.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Tomorrow already? I hope it goes as well as today apparently did.
> 
> The mover must have a close relative on the spectrum to understand so quickly and to know how to speak to Jonno. And see how Jonno comes up to the mark when you need him to.
> 
> And here I am, headed to Massachusetts Thursday, but only for a long weekend. You're headed for a whole new life. Best of luck, sweet one.


You're going to Massachusetts? Sounds like fun! What will you be doing there? Please share. I'll have to pretend like I'm traveling this year. I used to frequently go on little trips with my hubby and was planning on taking some short ones this summer, when dil's mother was helping out. But I heard today, that her family leave was denied. She put that she had to help with the quads but family leave doesn't apply to grandchildren. She's going to reapply saying that she's going to be helping her daughter with complications of birth. We'll see.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> You're right again, as usual. It's good to talk about things other than shopping and cooking (though I baked a champion apple challah last week, which nobody dared to put cream cheese on.)


Mmmmmm!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'd like to think that you're right except that, I know that our police departments are not only receiving military equipment, but are actually training with the military. And apparently, according to this Daily Kos article, the New York City police are training with the Israeli military. Its an interesting article.
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/12/1044508/-Are-U-S-Police-training-with-the-Israeli-Military
> 
> Here's a Newsweek article explaining how all of this started.
> ...


After watching the video of the "pool party" incident in the Dallas area, I believe you to a point. The tuck and roll was almost comical. Pointing his gun at a bunch of kids was not. He should be kicked off the force and spend some time in jail. Almost the whole time he was being filmed, he was kneeling on that girl. He was no light weight either. I can't imagine the fear these kids were experiencing or the pain she felt with his knee in her back.
The two women who were calling out the racial slurs at the pool and caught on video slapping these kids, walked away.
At the very least they should have been charged with assault on a minor.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Among the factors making me care so much for my friends here, you are intelligent, informed, and well spoken and we can have meaningful discussions. Many of my face to face contacts don't talk about anything really profound, and here even if I only read and don't comment, I am involved in discussions that increase my knowledge and expand my horizons. I have become more thoughtful and I hope more sensitive learning the perspectives of my friends in other countries and with different priorities. Even if my aging body stays put, my mind has become a world traveler.


It is nice to get other points of view from different parts of the world. I have learned many things too. I have seen close up what is happening there and I Pray that they won't happen at home. However, I see problems and they are happening more and more often. Not in just one place but in many areas of our Country too. No country is safe from the changes that are happening in the world. I don't know what the future will bring, but I fear.

Most importantly I have met many dear friends here,who have the same basic ideas about how we should live and what we are required to do to be good citizens. I have gotten to know people from America, and Australia and they are my friends. Who can beat that? Shirley


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> The Mounties are sexual harrassers? What is this world coming to?


double answer.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> The Mounties are sexual harrassers? What is this world coming to?


Right - They have changed over the years. but so far have not had the same type of problems as are occurring down there. Possibly because we don't have a history of slavery, which in my opinion only, has colored just about everything that is happening down there.

All in all I am very proud of them. (so far).They are our Federal Police force and they police all rural areas in the country. They also assist if needed (rarely) in the cities. They are Representatives of Canada known all over the world. It is hard to face that there is that type of abuse running rampant through their ranks.

I mentioned in my post the other day the Truth and Reconciliation Report from the Commission. It was 7 years of interviews and studies about the Residential schools. I still am so disturbed that most of it was kept secret and that living in Canada I only knew a small part of what was happening. I was ashamed (and Still am).


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'd like to think that you're right except that, I know that our police departments are not only receiving military equipment, but are actually training with the military. And apparently, according to this Daily Kos article, the New York City police are training with the Israeli military. Its an interesting article.
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/12/1044508/-Are-U-S-Police-training-with-the-Israeli-Military
> 
> Here's a Newsweek article explaining how all of this started.
> ...


It is scary- I find it hard to believe - but I am not always right (really, ladies, I am not always right!!!)


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## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Eve - I think it is racist based, and that the police departments are not trained properly and they are given army weapons but no training Most police departments are hired by individual cities and towns, from what I understand. I think this has been happening for many years but now it is being photographed. They can't hide what they are doing like they did before pictures were being taken that show the truth.
> 
> That poor little l4 year old girl was begging someone to get her Momma. What justifies the way she was treated, she had a bikini on - what could she have done to warrant that treatment?
> 
> ...


I think that there is a certain amount of racism there. I experienced meetings with both Weston and Waltham police departments as a member of each town's clergy/ministerial association a few years ago, as well as interacting with the police in Waltham.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree with your last sentence. Anybody have an opinion on WHY our moral compass has disappeared?


Some of it may be attributed to fear of the unknown and of the uncontrollable.

Women are less marginalized, so "macho" men fear being emasculated. Over reaction, of course, but look more deeply into matricentric society with so many single parent families.

Minorities which stand out due to melanin or language differences from the "typical" citizen are less marginalized, a threat to male white gentiles in particular. And police seem to be largely white males with military background or a history, some of whom have been traumatized and some of whom have been concussed more than once.

With families separated due to job quests there is less interaction with grandparents leading to less empathy for older people in general. Add to that the fear of aging and becoming less self sufficient.

The state of the economy with decent jobs for the less educated, less skilled, or less talented harder to get, wages insufficient to maintain a middle class life, drives some to desperation.

The availability of mind altering "controlled" substances which in my opinion causes permanent negative changes to the brain. I think there have been studies showing the sorts of changes caused by regular use of marijuana.

The diminished emphasis on personal responsibility in general in our society. People seem more inclined to blame anything or anyone other than themselves when they screw up or when things go wrong in their lives. There is the feeling of entitlement coupled with this that makes some large strong young men appear more threatening than in the past. The sorts of large young men who look to a career in law enforcement as a secure job.

I am fortunate to live in a town where the police force is expected to "protect and serve" and the officers with whom I have interacted seem to live up to the standards.

But there are a couple of nearby towns where we try to avoid driving through because the cops have a reputation for being thugs and bullies who will pull you over arbitrarily and who are not kindly disposed to people on bicycles. They have a reputation of seeing people on bicycles as "Mexicans" who have lost their licenses to drive due to drunk convictions or who do not have licenses due to illegal immigration status. Talk about racism and profiling! Think about people who can't afford cars, an area where public transportation is nearly non existent and excessively expensive where it is available, and how do people with poorly paying jobs get to work? You have to commend people who keep trying to work and be self sufficient rather than falling back on public assistance.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You're going to Massachusetts? Sounds like fun! What will you be doing there? Please share. I'll have to pretend like I'm traveling this year. I used to frequently go on little trips with my hubby and was planning on taking some short ones this summer, when dil's mother was helping out. But I heard today, that her family leave was denied. She put that she had to help with the quads but family leave doesn't apply to grandchildren. She's going to reapply saying that she's going to be helping her daughter with complications of birth. We'll see.


I hope she succeeds this time around. This is another area in which the Europeans beat us. I can't imagine why the birth of quads isn't considered a family emergency. Could dil's mom take vacation time?

DH's sister and bil live in Gloucester, in a 6-bedroom house which is now occupied by just the two of them, with various children and grandchildren dropping by. We used to go up there a few times a year, but we're all getting too old for entertaining (I'm actually the youngest of the four of us). We'll make no demands, bring some food with us, help out with the cooking, and call it a vacation. It's a beautiful spot to be in, so we'll take walks along the road that goes around the harbor and then sit in the yard and read. I guess that really is a vacation.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Some of it may be attributed to fear of the unknown and of the uncontrollable.
> 
> Women are less marginalized, so "macho" men fear being emasculated. Over reaction, of course, but look more deeply into matricentric society with so many single parent families.
> 
> ...


A really good explanation of what's going wrong here. The xenophobia that 9/11 woke in most of us seems to have morphed into a wartime mentality in those who should be protectors, and everyone who doesn't look like them or do what they do is an enemy.

The terrible thing is that the fear and enmity have been encouraged by governments for nearly 15 years, and it will take longer than that to counteract them.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What I like is finding NON like minded people. I've learned a lot about how liberals think. Some of it I agree with. I used to think that we were light years apart. Now I've come to think that we all want the same basic things. We just disagree on how to get them.
> 
> It's hard to get into these discussions in person. No one wants to offend, so anything of import gets pushed aside. It's kind of sad really. We don't like it when our politicians refuse to sit down, to talk, to compromise, but in our real lives, we can be the same. People need to talk. They need to try to understand each other. It IS handy to have a gathering place where we can do that.


KFN
You are right. Discussion and information are the main thing we receive by posting here, AFTER friendship.We have learned some things from you too.

You have opened my eyes to an absolutely different outlook on many things I have felt strongly about my whole life. You haven't changed my beliefs but I can see there are things I need to talk about -it is good to know where different opinions generated from thinking and studying are coming from..

I am glad that you understand us a bit better than you used to. You have opened doors to absolutely different opinions which I don't understand and which are hard for me to accept


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I agree with your last sentence. Anybody have an opinion on WHY our moral compass has disappeared?


I think there are different reasons . For one out sourcing in both our countries certainly doesn't help the employment situation. The recent years we have been in a recession.
In the states I think the bitterness about and dislike (even hate of) President Obama has certainly divided your country in ways never seen in over a hundred years if ever..Those feelings came to the fore before he was even elected.
There is also the Terror situation which is a real thing.

The war didn't help with millions if not billions of dollars of debt because of a war that many of us feel was based on a lie.

I am including myself and I hope I am not overstepping. These as always are my opinions and my opinions only.

Anyway, this is the first real, two sided conversation we have had. Yeah!!


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

When hatred is being practiced by high officials, it is no wonder, that it is being adopted by others who are considered a lesser class and have lesser worth. After all none of us were born bad, we are being made bad. 

The Gang (and their cohorts) who plotted against President Obama before he even entered the White House bears lots of responsibility for dastardly behavior in many places. That Gang has given permission to behave poorly.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> When hatred is being practiced by high officials, it is no wonder, that it is being adopted by others who are considered a lesser class and have lesser worth. After all none of us were born bad, we are being made bad.
> 
> The Gang (and their cohorts) who plotted against President Obama before he even entered the White House bears lots of responsibility for dastardly behavior in many places. That Gang has given permission to behave poorly.


Huck, very well said!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'd like to think that you're right except that, I know that our police departments are not only receiving military equipment, but are actually training with the military. And apparently, according to this Daily Kos article, the New York City police are training with the Israeli military. Its an interesting article.
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/12/1044508/-Are-U-S-Police-training-with-the-Israeli-Military
> 
> Here's a Newsweek article explaining how all of this started.
> ...


I just read from beginning to end, the 2nd link - and to be honest I found it difficult. I just can't agree to the ideas put out by those on the discussion after the link. It is scary the hate I read there. One even wanted all blacks and liberals annihalated. Many blamed those on the left for all the current problems.. very few were left wing and they were many less than the majority. I will read the Daily Kos link as well but if the one on Ferguson was in some ways a very different view than I have.

I just read the daily Kos article and stopped reading it after his 2nd sentence. Possibly but not probably it might have lightened up but I am not interested after reading the first sentences. I have been aware of what happened in Israel since its inception and the Write up is very obviously anti Israel in my opinion. I have not read the Daily Kos and 
that is the type of link that absolutely has no understanding of why Israel was made a State. I don't agree with Netanyanu thanks to what I have learned here from members who have more knowledge of the inner workings than I have but I find it very opposite my opinions on Israel.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> When hatred is being practiced by high officials, it is no wonder, that it is being adopted by others who are considered a lesser class and have lesser worth. After all none of us were born bad, we are being made bad.
> 
> The Gang (and their cohorts) who plotted against President Obama before he even entered the White House bears lots of responsibility for dastardly behavior in many places. That Gang has given permission to behave poorly.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

So I got curious and read the Kos article. It is not anti-Israel, it is anti the Israeli policing techniques that have bee borrowed and used here in the US.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

sumpleby said:


> So I got curious and read the Kos article. It is not anti-Israel, it is anti the Israeli policing techniques that have bee borrowed and used here in the US.


Thanks I will read it again.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> When hatred is being practiced by high officials, it is no wonder, that it is being adopted by others who are considered a lesser class and have lesser worth. After all none of us were born bad, we are being made bad.
> 
> The Gang (and their cohorts) who plotted against President Obama before he even entered the White House bears lots of responsibility for dastardly behavior in many places. That Gang has given permission to behave poorly.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> It is scary- I find it hard to believe - but I am not always right (really, ladies, I am not always right!!!)


But you are always wise, thoughtful and considerate. With age has come maturity, compassion and understanding. You remind me so much of my favourite sister. When I was a small child I called her my 'little mum' because she was always there for me. She is older than you though, she turned 88 years six days ago and is still working up to two days a week as a volunteer in the VDP Op Shop. You are both tireless and eternally young. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> When hatred is being practiced by high officials, it is no wonder, that it is being adopted by others who are considered a lesser class and have lesser worth. After all none of us were born bad, we are being made bad.
> 
> The Gang (and their cohorts) who plotted against President Obama before he even entered the White House bears lots of responsibility for dastardly behavior in many places. That Gang has given permission to behave poorly.


You are so correct here. What the haters have been doing is a form of anarchy, in my opinion.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> You are so correct here. What the haters have been doing is a form of anarchy, in my opinion.


I'm with you on that one, Marilyn. :thumbup:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> But you are always wise, thoughtful and considerate. With age has come maturity, compassion and understanding. You remind me so much of my favourite sister. When I was a small child I called her my 'little mum' because she was always there for me. She is older than you though, she turned 88 years six days ago and is still working up to two days a week as a volunteer in the VDP Op Shop. You are both tireless and eternally young. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I read today that the out of control cop in Texas has resigned. It's a good thing that he did, but it still isn't enough.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/texas-policeman-resigns-after-video-shows-him-toppling-teen/ar-BBkTiMU


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Changing the current subject, here is a New York Times alert that hit my e-mail a couple of hours ago.

A police officer in McKinney, Tex., who was seen on video pulling his gun on teenagers in swimsuits and shoving a young black girls face in the ground at a pool party has resigned, the police said Tuesday.

Cpl. David Eric Casebolt, who had been placed on administrative leave after the June 5 episode, remains under investigation, Chief Greg Conley said at a news conference. *The corporal will keep his pension and benefits*(the bold print is my edit to the article - M), the police chief said.

Our policies, our training, our practice doesnt support his actions, Chief Conley said. "He came into the call out of control, and as the video shows was out of control during the incident."

The video was taken on a cellphone and posted to YouTube, where it set off another in a recent series of debates involving race and police tactics. The police said Corporal Case and other officers were responding to a call about a fight and a disturbance at a community pool in Craig Ranch, a racially diverse subdivision north of Dallas.

( Protesters gathered Monday at a swimming pool in McKinney, Tex., where a police officer last week was recorded throwing a teenage girl to the ground. the link http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/10/us/police-officer-in-mckinney-tex-resigns-over-incident-caught-on-video.html?emc=edit_na_20150609&nlid=59975621&_r=0 includes a video.)

Corporal Casebolt can be heard shouting profanities at the teenagers, and officers handcuffed several who had followed his orders to sit on the ground. He appeared to grab the girl and pin her to the ground after she did not heed his orders to leave.

One adult man was arrested on charges of interfering with the duties of a police officer and evading arrest. Chief Conley said on Tuesday that those charges had been dismissed.

At the news conference, Mayor Brian Loughmiller said that officials recognized a need for better training for officers, but added that there needed to be expectations for interactions with police.

Greg Willis, the district attorney for Collin County, said in a statement on Tuesday that his office had received numerous inquiries about the case.

We share the publics legitimate interest in a full and fair investigation of this matter, he said. We are currently awaiting the results of the McKinney Police Departments investigation and ask for patience as their investigation continues.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

"Under unusual pressure from Israel and the United States, the United Nations secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, opted not to include either Israel or Hamas on a list of armies and guerrilla groups that kill and maim children in conflicts worldwide, despite the recommendations of one of his senior envoys, diplomats say.

The list was part of an annual report of violations of childrens rights, an advance copy of which was circulated to members of the Security Council on Monday morning, that goes into great detail on the actions of Israeli security forces during the 50-day war in the Gaza Strip last year. The report raised what it called serious concern over the observance of the rules of international humanitarian law concerning the conduct of hostilities.
Continue reading the main story
Related Coverage

U.N. Rights Chief Faults Israel, Palestinians Over Gaza War JusticeJAN. 29, 2015
Left, Palestinian men burying members of a family who were killed in an Israeli airstrike in Gaza this summer. Right, Israeli residents took cover from a rocket attack by Palestinian militants. A 50-day war was fought before a cease-fire was reached in August.
Amnesty International Says Israel Showed Callous Indifference in GazaNOV. 4, 2014

The report says that at least 540 children were killed, another 2,955 wounded and 262 schools damaged by Israeli airstrikes. It also cited Palestinian militants for firing rockets indiscriminately toward Israel, killing a 4-year-old Israeli boy and gravely wounding at least six Israeli children..."

Read more:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/world/middleeast/israel-and-hamas-are-kept-off-a-grim-list.html


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> "Under unusual pressure from Israel and the United States, the United Nations secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, opted not to include either Israel or Hamas on a list of armies and guerrilla groups that kill and maim children in conflicts worldwide, despite the recommendations of one of his senior envoys, diplomats say.
> 
> The list was part of an annual report of violations of childrens rights, an advance copy of which was circulated to members of the Security Council on Monday morning, that goes into great detail on the actions of Israeli security forces during the 50-day war in the Gaza Strip last year. The report raised what it called serious concern over the observance of the rules of international humanitarian law concerning the conduct of hostilities.
> Continue reading the main story
> ...


Maybe if the cowardly Hamas did not plant their weapons in populated neighborhoods, they would not be losing kids.

Maybe if the cowardly Hamas did not provoke the Israelis with rockets, they would not be losing kids.

What country in the history of humanity gave back land voluntarily won in wars? That is the reason for wars - vicious land grabbing. Vicious resources stealing. Why is Israel expected to behave any differently? The sickening history of the States is all about vicious stealing and land grabbing from the Indians and the Hispanics.

Humans should be put on the grim list.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> But you are always wise, thoughtful and considerate. With age has come maturity, compassion and understanding. You remind me so much of my favourite sister. When I was a small child I called her my 'little mum' because she was always there for me. She is older than you though, she turned 88 years six days ago and is still working up to two days a week as a volunteer in the VDP Op Shop. You are both tireless and eternally young. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


how kind you are!! I would love to meet her. I feel much the same way about you. You are kind and smart and very wise. I admire each and everyone on these threads.

I will keep your kind post in my heart.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> I read today that the out of control cop in Texas has resigned. It's a good thing that he did, but it still isn't enough.
> 
> http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/texas-policeman-resigns-after-video-shows-him-toppling-teen/ar-BBkTiMU


Do you think he still will be charged or will they just ignore what he did?. He should get help for one thing, and be charged for another. He also should never be allowed into any other Police force. I wonder what will happen. I heard he had left town because he had feared for his life.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

I have no doubt that the girl who was manhandled and her family will sue the officer and the city.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Maybe if the cowardly Hamas did not plant their weapons in populated neighborhoods, they would not be losing kids.
> 
> Maybe if the cowardly Hamas did not provoke the Israelis with rockets, they would not be losing kids.
> 
> ...


I think it demonstrates how far politicized the UN and human rights have become. Should it be up to the UN to determine who goes on the 'list' at all? As far as human rights are concerned, the policing of them should be the domain of a completely separate non political international body who have powers to not only name and shame those countries who breach them, but to also mete out punishment.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Some of it may be attributed to fear of the unknown and of the uncontrollable.
> 
> Women are less marginalized, so "macho" men fear being emasculated. Over reaction, of course, but look more deeply into matricentric society with so many single parent families.
> 
> ...


Sorry it took me so long to respond. I've been alternating between being very busy, and being very tired. I've filled up the pool, so that'll keep Max busy for a little while.

You pretty well covered everything. I think a lot of the issues we're facing today, come from this sense of entitlement. Society used to put restraints on people. But not anymore. People think they're entitled to have what they want, and do what they want. People think nothing of speeding, running red lights or jaywalking. If they want something and can't afford it, they'll buy it on credit or steal it. No one wants to wait for anything, save for anything or work for anything. (When I say "no one", I don't mean that literally) If they're doing something that bothers you, too bad! No one cares about anyone but themselves.

IMO, this type of attitude causes a pressure cooker type of existence. People get so annoyed. They keep taking it and taking it, until they explode. When the police respond to any given situation, they don't know if it's a " pressure cooker" situation or not. So, they treat everyone as if they're about to explode.

In the meantime, governments are left to control masses of angry people. They do so, with laws that restrict freedoms, and with force. That control and force just make the people angrier and more likely to explode.

IMO, we need people in government who want to rebuild our society. They need to encourage people (and corporations) to put others first. Remember when Kennedy said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.". Without this kind of leader, we're doomed.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> I think it demonstrates how far politicized the UN and human rights have become. Should it be up to the UN to determine who goes on the 'list' at all? As far as human rights are concerned, the policing of them should be the domain of a completely separate non political international body who have powers to not only name and shame those countries who breach them, but to also mete out punishment.


Since it's a UN list, shouldn't that be the only organization to determine who goes on it? But the UN is a toothless organization, so it's of no consequence. Besides, there's very little settled international law, so there's nothing to enforce.

Sometime in the 1970s the UN enacted a resolution declaring that Zionism was racism, so what should we expect now? It's a group that decides things on a majority basis (except in the Security Council, which is where the real business is conducted), and the nation of Jews - regardless of how long it's existed or how much it has contributed to mankind - is very small.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> I hope she succeeds this time around. This is another area in which the Europeans beat us. I can't imagine why the birth of quads isn't considered a family emergency. Could dil's mom take vacation time?
> 
> DH's sister and bil live in Gloucester, in a 6-bedroom house which is now occupied by just the two of them, with various children and grandchildren dropping by. We used to go up there a few times a year, but we're all getting too old for entertaining (I'm actually the youngest of the four of us). We'll make no demands, bring some food with us, help out with the cooking, and call it a vacation. It's a beautiful spot to be in, so we'll take walks along the road that goes around the harbor and then sit in the yard and read. I guess that really is a vacation.


So, I guess now, dil's mother is going to take early retirement. We'll see...

I just looked at some images of Gloucester. Its beautiful! How I wish I could be there! If I were, I'd sit and knit, and soak up the beauty. Have a wonderful time!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I think there are different reasons . For one out sourcing in both our countries certainly doesn't help the employment situation. The recent years we have been in a recession.
> In the states I think the bitterness about and dislike (even hate of) President Obama has certainly divided your country in ways never seen in over a hundred years if ever..Those feelings came to the fore before he was even elected.
> There is also the Terror situation which is a real thing.
> 
> ...


I agree that all of these things have added to the "pressure cooker" situation that we're in now. But I think we lost our moral compass way before any of these things happened. IMO, our society started to collapse in the 60s and 70s, when anything and everything became acceptable. I think that's when people started caring only about themselves.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Since it's a UN list, shouldn't that be the only organization to determine who goes on it? But the UN is a toothless organization, so it's of no consequence. Besides, there's very little settled international law, so there's nothing to enforce.
> 
> Sometime in the 1970s the UN enacted a resolution declaring that Zionism was racism, so what should we expect now? It's a group that decides things on a majority basis (except in the Security Council, which is where the real business is conducted), and the nation of Jews - regardless of how long it's existed or how much it has contributed to mankind - is very small.


I agree that the UN is toothless. As known, it was set up to be a cooperation of nations to prevent a repeat of WW11 and yet the ME is in such an awful mess. I read that President Obama stated that there isn't a defined strategy for the ME as yet and he has committed another 400 odd troops to Iraq to assist in training etc.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Sorry it took me so long to respond. I've been alternating between being very busy, and being very tired. I've filled up the pool, so that'll keep Max busy for a little while.
> 
> You pretty well covered everything. I think a lot of the issues we're facing today, come from this sense of entitlement. Society used to put restraints on people. But not anymore. People think they're entitled to have what they want, and do what they want. People think nothing of speeding, running red lights or jaywalking. If they want something and can't afford it, they'll buy it on credit or steal it. No one wants to wait for anything, save for anything or work for anything. (When I say "no one", I don't mean that literally) If they're doing something that bothers you, too bad! No one cares about anyone but themselves.
> 
> ...


I agree with you Nebs. It seems to be happening everywhere.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Sorry it took me so long to respond. I've been alternating between being very busy, and being very tired. I've filled up the pool, so that'll keep Max busy for a little while.
> 
> You pretty well covered everything. I think a lot of the issues we're facing today, come from this sense of entitlement. Society used to put restraints on people. But not anymore. People think they're entitled to have what they want, and do what they want. People think nothing of speeding, running red lights or jaywalking. If they want something and can't afford it, they'll buy it on credit or steal it. No one wants to wait for anything, save for anything or work for anything. (When I say "no one", I don't mean that literally) If they're doing something that bothers you, too bad! No one cares about anyone but themselves.
> 
> ...


Knitter from Nebraska
Everyone I know works or worked their whole Life until retirement, their children are working - often 2 and 3 jobs - and they are asking for nothing from anyone even though they are struggling. Sad when People work that many hours and find it difficult to pay the bills. Income has been stagnant for decades but Prices are skyrocketing. While the majority is desperately trying to make ends meet, the rich are raking it in as if there is no tomorrow. Where we live every little House (up to 3500 sq.") is being torn down to make room for bigger and bigger Mansions. Don't you think that makes people grumpy? They cannot stay afloat and others are swimming in wealth. Does it surprise you that people start thinking about themselves? They have to in order to keep their sanity. Stop pointing fingers at those who stay poor while making the rich richer. The Walmart Heirs are just one example.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

It seems that the article below explains why the people in the area where the black kids swam chose to tell them to leave, even though it is a public pool. However reading this you might understand how poorly the segregation laws are being monitored. It also appears that 'northern' white don't want any blacks in the same pool . It amazes me as I thought all places were desgregated in the U.S. It seems I was wrong. so sad. It is not even thought of up here. I am so glad that we don't have this history.
---------------

This week, video of a white police officer's response to a complaint about black teens at a pool party in McKinney, Texas, went viral, because it struck many viewers as shockingly violent and disproportionate.

The backstory only made the footage more troubling. According to several accounts, police were called in response to a fight that broke out when a white adult told the black kids, some of whom had hopped the fence to attend the event, to "go back to Section 8 [public housing]."

To many, the story is just another addition to a recent series of high-profile incidents in which police have been accused of misconduct against African-Americans, a topic that has made regular headlines since the police shooting of unarmed black 18-year-old Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri.

But the setting here  a swimming pool where black kids were swiftly identified as outsiders and reportedly subjected to racial hostility for daring to be there, whether they were invited guests or not  means it has its own unique context.

There's a case to be made that the very existence of private pools like the one in McKinney was a response to the end of legal segregation of municipal pools in the late 1940s and early '50s. In other words: many white people preferred to build their own pools than enjoy this type of recreation side by side with their black neighbors.

That's according to Jeff Wiltse, the the author of Contested Waters, a book about the history of controversy surrounding America's public pools.

In a 2007 interview with NPR's Michele Martin , he provided this interesting piece of insight into the anxiety around intimate contact with black people, which he said made resistance to integrating swimming pools even more contentious than integrating schools in some cases:

And so the concern among white swimmers and public officials that if blacks and whites swam together at these resort pools in which the culture was highly sexualized, that black men would assault white women with romantic advances, that they would try to make physical contact with them, and that this was unacceptable to most northern whites ...

... There was a court case that emerged added an attempt by the local NAACP to desegregate the municipal pools in Baltimore. And this was right after Brown v. Board of Education. And so the local attorney argued that, well, schools may be being desegregated, but we can't have swimming pools be desegregated because swimmers come in potentially intimate contact with one another.

And so a federal judge upholding racial segregation of Baltimore pools reconciled his decision with the recent Brown v. Board of Education decision by claiming that pools were more sensitive than schools, and that to integrate a swimming pool would not just potentially, likely lead to race riots and all sorts of violence.

And so in the interest of the public good it was reasonable to keep swimming pools segregated along racial lines, even though the Supreme Court had ruled separate but equal was unconstitutional at schools.

There's of course not legally enforced racial segregation anymore, and it's doubtful that any of the white residents of McKinney  even the one who allegedly directed the kids back to Section 8 housing  would admit they were squeamish about physical contact with African Americans.

But the residential segregation that made it possible for the black kids who were seen as outsider the pool to be so easily identified, and for their presence to cause such intense offense, is a reminder that some of the sentiments that fueled separate-but-equal swimming in this country still linger.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> It seems that the article below explains why the people in the area where the black kids swam chose to tell them to leave, even though it is a public pool. However reading this you might understand how poorly the segregation laws are being monitored. It also appears that 'northern' white don't want any blacks in the same pool . It amazes me as I thought all places were desgregated in the U.S. It seems I was wrong. so sad. It is not even thought of up here. I am so glad that we don't have this history.


By law almost every place is the US is integrated, but the facts are different. I suspect that even in Canada, neighborhoods segregate themselves: Chinese, Italian, etc. This doesn't mean that nobody else can buy a home in those neighborhoods but only that most of the people they see look like them, whoever they happen to be.

But Canada couldn't possibly have similar rates of segregation because while blacks in the US make up over 14% of the population, in Canada they amount to less than 3%. In other words, the typical American will see/be with 4 times as many black people as the typical Canadian. _On average, _if you have a pool in a white neighborhood in Canada, among 100 swimmers, only 3 will be black. In the US, that group of 100 swimmers will have 14 black people. So racial prejudice seems nonexistent in Canada, but that's probably because with such a small black population, most Canadians can go for weeks without seeing even one black person.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> By law almost every place is the US is integrated, but the facts are different. I suspect that even in Canada, neighborhoods segregate themselves: Chinese, Italian, etc. This doesn't mean that nobody else can buy a home in those neighborhoods but only that most of the people they see look like them, whoever they happen to be.
> 
> But Canada couldn't possibly have similar rates of segregation because while blacks in the US make up over 14% of the population, in Canada they amount to less than 3%. In other words, the typical American will see/be with 4 times as many black people as the typical Canadian. _On average, _if you have a pool in a white neighborhood in Canada, among 100 swimmers, only 3 will be black. In the US, that group of 100 swimmers will have 14 black people. So racial prejudice seems nonexistent in Canada, but that's probably because with such a small black population, most Canadians can go for weeks without seeing even one black person.


Our PP writes a word problem.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> Everyone I know works or worked their whole Life until retirement, their children are working - often 2 and 3 jobs - and they are asking for nothing from anyone even though they are struggling. Sad when People work that many hours and find it difficult to pay the bills. Income has been stagnant for decades but Prices are skyrocketing. While the majority is desperately trying to make ends meet, the rich are raking it in as if there is no tomorrow. Where we live every little House (up to 3500 sq.") is being torn down to make room for bigger and bigger Mansions. Don't you think that makes people grumpy? They cannot stay afloat and others are swimming in wealth. Does it surprise you that people start thinking about themselves? They have to in order to keep their sanity. Stop pointing fingers at those who stay poor while making the rich richer. The Walmart Heirs are just one example.


I disagree with you, that this is why we've lost our moral compass. The poor and middle class have always had to work twice as hard to just get by. That's not new. I'd even be willing to bet that the poor people in this country today, are far better off than the poor people 100 years ago. The problem lies in what we see as poor. Nearly everyone today, has to have a car, a TV, a cell phone, a computer, a DVD player etc... 100 years ago, the poor were worried about having food, shoes and a roof over their heads. Today, we can't imagine living without "things". It's one thing to struggle to keep up with everyone else, it's another to be hungry. AND YET, people had morals. There were both written and unwritten rules that were followed. A person's reputation counted more than money. Debt was something to be ashamed of. Those rules have gone out the window. We've become a dog eat dog, society. And these changes took place while the economy was good. They're not recent. I think maybe having too much, makes us want more, makes us willing to climb over each other to get more???

I am not disagreeing that the 1% are trying to take it all, or that the rich are getting richer and the poor getting poorer. I think that's the biggest problem in the world today. I just don't think that's why people have lost their moral compass. I think that's come about as a result of our own greed and egoism.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> It seems that the article below explains why the people in the area where the black kids swam chose to tell them to leave, even though it is a public pool. However reading this you might understand how poorly the segregation laws are being monitored. It also appears that 'northern' white don't want any blacks in the same pool . It amazes me as I thought all places were desgregated in the U.S. It seems I was wrong. so sad. It is not even thought of up here. I am so glad that we don't have this history.
> This week, video of a white police officer's response to a complaint about black teens at a pool party in McKinney, Texas, went viral, because it struck many viewers as shockingly violent and disproportionate.
> The backstory only made the footage more troubling. According to several accounts, police were called in response to a fight that broke out when a white adult told the black kids, some of whom had hopped the fence to attend the event, to "go back to Section 8 (public housing)."
> To many, the story is just another addition to a recent series of high-profile incidents in which police have been accused of misconduct against African-Americans, a topic that has made regular headlines since the police shooting of unarmed black 18-year-old Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri.
> ...


*1.* The white parents had no business attacking the kids with racial slurs.

*2.* There was no need for fist fights over the matter, as the police had been called.

*3.* That one officer ran mad in the way he "dealt" with the situation.

But you ignore the fact that the kids abused the pool situation. One girl who was interviewed acknowledged the fact that the two extra guests per pool pass rule was ignored. And that kids who hadn't been invited descended, climbing the fence to get in to the party. And when asked, they refused to remedy the situation. *That doesn't excuse* the abuse that came next, but it does show what led up to it.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Just Beachy said:


> I can pretty much guarantee you that white kids that had parties there didn't have the adults counting who was 'legit' and who wasn't.
> 
> According to Joy Reid, it was only a couple of black kids that were from the next neighborhood over when an obese white bubba started telling them to get '_back to section 8 where you belong_"
> 
> ...


Reading the posts on the situation regarding the heavy handed approach by the police to the children attending the pool party and seeing the video where the woman definitely overreacted and slapped the teenage girl in the face because the girl and her mates were at the pool I must ask, does the USA have an Anti Discrimination Act? Australia does. A very brief overview of the Australian Anti Discrimination Act

Definition of racial discrimination under the Act

Racial discrimination occurs under the RDA when someone is treated less fairly than someone else in a similar situation because of their race, colour, descent or national or ethnic origin . Racial discrimination can also occur when a policy or rule appears to treat everyone in the same way but actually has an unfair effect on more people of a particular race, colour, descent or national or ethnic origin than others.

It is against the law to discriminate in areas such as:

	Employment (section 15) - e.g. when seeking employment, training, promotion, equal pay or conditions of employment;
	Land, housing or accommodation (section 12) - e.g. when buying a house or when renting;
	Provision of goods and services (section 13) - e.g. when buying something, applying for credit, using banks, seeking assistance from government departments, lawyers, doctors and hospitals, or attending restaurants, pubs, entertainment venues;
	Access to places and facilities for use by the public (section 11) - e.g. when trying to use parks, libraries, government offices, hotels, places of worship, entertainment centres, hire cars;
	Advertising (section 16) - e.g. advertising for a job stating that people from a certain ethnic group cannot apply;
	Joining a trade union (section 14).
	Certain offensive behaviour will also be found discriminatory if it is likely to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate people of a certain race, colour or national or ethnic origin (section 18 B-F)

The situation at the swimming pool would definitely come under section 11

	Access to places and facilities for use by the public (section 11) - e.g. when trying to use parks, libraries, government offices, hotels, places of worship, entertainment centres, hire cars;

If the USA does not have an Anti Discrimination Act then why not? And what steps are being taken to rectify that?


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> By law almost every place is the US is integrated, but the facts are different. I suspect that even in Canada, neighborhoods segregate themselves: Chinese, Italian, etc. This doesn't mean that nobody else can buy a home in those neighborhoods but only that most of the people they see look like them, whoever they happen to be.
> 
> But Canada couldn't possibly have similar rates of segregation because while blacks in the US make up over 14% of the population, in Canada they amount to less than 3%. In other words, the typical American will see/be with 4 times as many black people as the typical Canadian. _On average, _if you have a pool in a white neighborhood in Canada, among 100 swimmers, only 3 will be black. In the US, that group of 100 swimmers will have 14 black people. So racial prejudice seems nonexistent in Canada, but that's probably because with such a small black population, most Canadians can go for weeks without seeing even one black person.


From an Australian perspective I cannot agree with your statement.

Whilst only 3% of the Australian population are classified as Indigenous Australians some areas have a much higher percentage. This does not mean that many Australians can go for weeks without seeing an Indigenous person, unless they live in the ultra rich suburbs such as Peppermint Grove, but then you could say that people in those ultra rich suburbs live an isolated, 'Ivory Tower' existence.

Perth has a very rich, multicultural population and you will see people from all cultures on the streets. They include Asians, English, Indigenous Australians, people from various African Nations, even people from the USA. All must be treated equally and with respect. All have recourse to the Anti Discrimination Act should they not be treated equally.

Our area is said to have over 11% indigenous population and some areas within that area have an extremely high percentage. But this does not mean that they are to be treated with any less respect than non Indigenous people. Our swimming pool is located within an area where the Indigenous population is very large and therefore most of the children at the pool after school on weekdays and on the weekend will probably be Indigenous children. Whilst we have had trouble with some children and in particular with children from one very large extended family the trouble was due to their very anti social behaviour and not because of the colour of their skin. Say anything nasty and racial to an Indigenous Australian and they will probably pull you up very sharply and tell you that they can have you for racial vilification and that you can be charged under the Racial Discrimination Act. And yes they will complain if you insist on discriminating against them on the basis of the colour of their skin.

I will post a link to one incident regarding how seriously we take discrimination here in Australia. It relates to a 13 year old girl calling a footballer an ape. I agree with Adam that the girl was probably just repeating statements that she had heard her parents and grandparent make but that does not excuse her actions. Discrimination in any form has no place in Australian society and it should not have a place in the USA society.

Adam Goodes 'gutted' by racial slur but wants AFL fan educated

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-25/goodes-gutted-but-places-no-blame/4712772

Does the USA not have an Anti Discrimination Act? And if not, why not? And what steps are being taken to rectify this situation?


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

One of my friends from work expressed her concerns about her two young sons, trying to make them aware that in some areas "DWB", driving while black, could be a great problem for them. They were raised to be excessively polite, sirring everybody in authority. But she said once the older son was old enough to drive to his college classes she was uneasy until he was safely home. It is an unfortunate reality that to some people dark skin targets a person as suspicious.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I disagree with you, that this is why we've lost our moral compass. The poor and middle class have always had to work twice as hard to just get by. That's not new. I'd even be willing to bet that the poor people in this country today, are far better off than the poor people 100 years ago. The problem lies in what we see as poor. Nearly everyone today, has to have a car, a TV, a cell phone, a computer, a DVD player etc... 100 years ago, the poor were worried about having food, shoes and a roof over their heads. Today, we can't imagine living without "things". It's one thing to struggle to keep up with everyone else, it's another to be hungry. AND YET, people had morals. There were both written and unwritten rules that were followed. A person's reputation counted more than money. Debt was something to be ashamed of. Those rules have gone out the window. We've become a dog eat dog, society. And these changes took place while the economy was good. They're not recent. I think maybe having too much, makes us want more, makes us willing to climb over each other to get more???


I'm not sure I can agree that morals have gone out the window since the 50s and 60s, Nebraska. After all, those were the days when blatant segregation and racism were acceptable, and I'm sure we can all breath a sigh of relief that those times are behind us.

As for things like unwed motherhood, cheating, and divorce, the rates are definitely up--but I'm not convinced these unhappy situations didn't exist in the past. Men abused their wives and had affairs, and the Little Woman was expected to button her lip and accept it or (worse still) lay out a strategy for reforming and/or winning back her man. Ugh! That sort of thing doesn't count as moral in my book.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm not sure I can agree that morals have gone out the window since the 50s and 60s, Nebraska. After all, those were the days when blatant segregation and racism were acceptable, and I'm sure we can all breath a sigh of relief that those times are behind us.
> 
> As for things like unwed motherhood, cheating, and divorce, the rates are definitely up--but I'm not convinced these unhappy situations didn't exist in the past. Men abused their wives and had affairs, and the Little Woman was expected to button her lip and accept it or (worse still) lay out a strategy for reforming and/or winning back her man. Ugh! That sort of thing doesn't count as moral in my book.


susanmos2000
I agree with you. 
I think that nothing ever changes. If people had been ALL THAT GOOD thousands of years ago, 'bad' would not have been mentioned in the Bible. As to marriages of the past, Women stuck it out, they had no choice since the Men were the breadwinners and if she left she had nothing. Education has given Women the choice to be independent.
Thank goodness the signs: "No blacks allowed", "No Jews", "Whites only" are a thing of the past but that does not mean that improvements are still in order.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm not sure I can agree that morals have gone out the window since the 50s and 60s, Nebraska. After all, those were the days when blatant segregation and racism were acceptable, and I'm sure we can all breath a sigh of relief that those times are behind us.
> 
> As for things like unwed motherhood, cheating, and divorce, the rates are definitely up--but I'm not convinced these unhappy situations didn't exist in the past. Men abused their wives and had affairs, and the Little Woman was expected to button her lip and accept it or (worse still) lay out a strategy for reforming and/or winning back her man. Ugh! That sort of thing doesn't count as moral in my book.


I can remember so many, many things that were taken as acceptable back in the 40s, 50s, and 60s and I too am glad that those things are now no longer acceptable. I can remember when Indigenous Australians were not considered to be fully human and were not allowed to vote. They were not allowed in the capital city after 6.00 pm at night. They were not allowed in the hotels. Their children were taken away from them by the Government if they had any percentage of non Aboriginal blood. I remember it being said about them that if you gave an Indigenous Australian pencil and paper and asked him to draw something and did the same thing to a monkey then the monkey would produce a better drawing. I also remember some of the hateful names that they were called by good God fearing, church going Christians. Divorce was costly and usually involved a private eye with a camera to sneak around looking in windows, hoping to catch a 'guilty spouse' in a compromising situation. I remember the juicy tales of such divorce cases being aired in the newspapers. Married women had to stay with their husbands even if they were belted black and blue by the said beasts because there was no such thing as a supporting parents' benefit. Mothers had to bear child after child after child because there was no reliable and safe method of contraception. Sterilisation was not readily available to all women, they had to have a medical reason. The Christian Church held so much authority over the general population, even over non Christians. Hotels were not allowed to open on a Sunday, shops were not allowed to open on a Sunday unless they were a delicatessen and then they were only allowed to sell perishables. Cinemas were not allowed to open on a Sunday. Everyone was expected to go to church and wear their best clothes and women had to wear hats in church. Many did go because it was the social event and meeting of the week. Boy, I had better stop here because I am running out of paper, but the list goes on and on, but people were definitely not any more moral than they are today. I seem to remember that back then a man was not a man unless he drank, gambled and beat his wife. Having lived through those days I would definitely say that I prefer today. I think that today people are more understanding and considerate than they were back then.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> susanmos2000
> I agree with you.
> I think that nothing ever changes. If people had been ALL THAT GOOD thousands of years ago, 'bad' would not have been mentioned in the Bible. As to marriages of the past, Women stuck it out, they had no choice since the Men were the breadwinners and if she left she had nothing. Education has given Women the choice to be independent.


Thanks God for that. My maternal grandmother is a shining example of what women faced in the good old days. Coming of age during the Depression she was forced by circumstances to drop out of high school and go to work...at 17 she declined a proposal by a suitor 14 years her senior, and he simply went to her parents and warned them that she was becoming a "loose woman" and needed a man to keep her in line. They bullied her into marrying, and her life was a living hell for the next two decades. DH smacked her around, had a string of mistresses, and blatantly favored his sons over her and her daughter (my mother).

I don't know where she found the courage to finally file for divorce, but in her late 30s she finally did and then had to deal with the social stigma of a being a single mom and manage on her wages as a checkout clerk and the pittance doled out by her ex (a fraction of what the court ordered--is she complained her former husband swore he'd move to Texas and not send her a penny).

Happily she went on to remarry, have two more kids, and lead a very pleasant life for another forty-five years. But yowzah! what problems she faced! I'm certain her story was far from unusual--how could anyone say that life was better for women then?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I can remember so many, many things that were taken as acceptable back in the 40s, 50s, and 60s and I too am glad that those things are now no longer acceptable. I can remember when Indigenous Australians were not considered to be fully human and were not allowed to vote. They were not allowed in the capital city after 6.00 pm at night. They were not allowed in the hotels. Their children were taken away from them by the Government if they had any percentage of non Aboriginal blood. I remember it being said about them that if you gave an Indigenous Australian pencil and paper and asked him to draw something and did the same thing to a monkey then the monkey would produce a better drawing. I also remember some of the hateful names that they were called by good God fearing, church going Christians. Divorce was costly and usually involved a private eye with a camera to sneak around looking in windows, hoping to catch a 'guilty spouse' in a compromising situation. I remember the juicy tales of such divorce cases being aired in the newspapers. Married women had to stay with their husbands even if they were belted black and blue by the said beasts because there was no such thing as a supporting parents' benefit. Mothers had to bear child after child after child because there was no reliable and safe method of contraception. Sterilisation was not readily available to all women, they had to have a medical reason. The Christian Church held so much authority over the general population, even over non Christians. Hotels were not allowed to open on a Sunday, shops were not allowed to open on a Sunday unless they were a delicatessen and then they were only allowed to sell perishables. Cinemas were not allowed to open on a Sunday. Everyone was expected to go to church and wear their best clothes and women had to wear hats in church. Many did go because it was the social event and meeting of the week. Boy, I had better stop here because I am running out of paper, but the list goes on and on, but people were definitely not any more moral than they are today. I seem to remember that back then a man was not a man unless he drank, gambled and beat his wife. Having lived through those days I would definitely say that I prefer today. I think that today people are more understanding and considerate than they were back then.


I so agree, Evie. Things are far from perfect these days, but I wouldn't go back to the 50s and 60s for the world.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree.



susanmos2000 said:


> I'm not sure I can agree that morals have gone out the window since the 50s and 60s, Nebraska. After all, those were the days when blatant segregation and racism were acceptable, and I'm sure we can all breath a sigh of relief that those times are behind us.
> 
> As for things like unwed motherhood, cheating, and divorce, the rates are definitely up--but I'm not convinced these unhappy situations didn't exist in the past. Men abused their wives and had affairs, and the Little Woman was expected to button her lip and accept it or (worse still) lay out a strategy for reforming and/or winning back her man. Ugh! That sort of thing doesn't count as moral in my book.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Your conclusions make sense to me.



Huckleberry said:


> susanmos2000
> I agree with you.
> I think that nothing ever changes. If people had been ALL THAT GOOD thousands of years ago, 'bad' would not have been mentioned in the Bible. As to marriages of the past, Women stuck it out, they had no choice since the Men were the breadwinners and if she left she had nothing. Education has given Women the choice to be independent.
> Thank goodness the signs: "No blacks allowed", "No Jews", "Whites only" are a thing of the past but that does not mean that improvements are still in order.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

There are similarities with USA during this time period. Just look back at how Disney movies have changed their treatment of minorities. I guarantee it will be uncomfortable for you.



EveMCooke said:


> I can remember so many, many things that were taken as acceptable back in the 40s, 50s, and 60s and I too am glad that those things are now no longer acceptable. I can remember when Indigenous Australians were not considered to be fully human and were not allowed to vote. They were not allowed in the capital city after 6.00 pm at night. They were not allowed in the hotels. Their children were taken away from them by the Government if they had any percentage of non Aboriginal blood. I remember it being said about them that if you gave an Indigenous Australian pencil and paper and asked him to draw something and did the same thing to a monkey then the monkey would produce a better drawing. I also remember some of the hateful names that they were called by good God fearing, church going Christians. Divorce was costly and usually involved a private eye with a camera to sneak around looking in windows, hoping to catch a 'guilty spouse' in a compromising situation. I remember the juicy tales of such divorce cases being aired in the newspapers. Married women had to stay with their husbands even if they were belted black and blue by the said beasts because there was no such thing as a supporting parents' benefit. Mothers had to bear child after child after child because there was no reliable and safe method of contraception. Sterilisation was not readily available to all women, they had to have a medical reason. The Christian Church held so much authority over the general population, even over non Christians. Hotels were not allowed to open on a Sunday, shops were not allowed to open on a Sunday unless they were a delicatessen and then they were only allowed to sell perishables. Cinemas were not allowed to open on a Sunday. Everyone was expected to go to church and wear their best clothes and women had to wear hats in church. Many did go because it was the social event and meeting of the week. Boy, I had better stop here because I am running out of paper, but the list goes on and on, but people were definitely not any more moral than they are today. I seem to remember that back then a man was not a man unless he drank, gambled and beat his wife. Having lived through those days I would definitely say that I prefer today. I think that today people are more understanding and considerate than they were back then.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> Thanks God for that. My maternal grandmother is a shining example of what women faced in the good old days. Coming of age during the Depression she was forced by circumstances to drop out of high school and go to work...at 17 she declined a proposal by a suitor 14 years her senior, and he simply went to her parents and warned them that she was becoming a "loose woman" and needed a man to keep her in line. They bullied her into marrying, and her life was a living hell for the next two decades. DH smacked her around, had a string of mistresses, and blatantly favored his sons over her and her daughter (my mother).
> 
> I don't know where she found the courage to finally file for divorce, but in her late 30s she finally did and then had to deal with the social stigma of a being a single mom and manage on her wages as a checkout clerk and the pittance doled out by her ex (a fraction of what the court ordered--is she complained her former husband swore he'd move to Texas and not send her a penny).
> 
> Happily she went on to remarry, have two more kids, and lead a very pleasant life for another forty-five years. But yowzah! what problems she faced! I'm certain her story was far from unusual--how could anyone say that life was better for women then?


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Your mother must have been a very strong woman. May we never glorify these 'good old days.'


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

damemary said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Your mother must have been a very strong woman. May we never glorify these 'good old days.'


No, there's not much to be said about them that's positive--in fact, I can't think of anything!


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## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Living very close to this area, essentially what occurred what a teenager who did not live near this addition posted an invitation to a party at a park in this neighborhood. Numerous teens attended and they then decided to jump the fence to the pool. This neighborhood, like mine, has an HOA and so it is a private pool. The DJ that the teen hired was playing music not conducive to family get togethers. 

What happened then is still a little gray - a white mother who was there with her small children used racist language and then then all hell broke loose. The teenagers did not even live near this neighborhood. We call the police in my addition when we see teens jumping the fence to our pool because they have vandalized it before and that increases our fees. Plus, it is trespassing.

Now we have protests going on and I think it's sad that it has come to this. There is blame for both parties.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> Everyone I know works or worked their whole Life until retirement, their children are working - often 2 and 3 jobs - and they are asking for nothing from anyone even though they are struggling. Sad when People work that many hours and find it difficult to pay the bills. Income has been stagnant for decades but Prices are skyrocketing. While the majority is desperately trying to make ends meet, the rich are raking it in as if there is no tomorrow. Where we live every little House (up to 3500 sq.") is being torn down to make room for bigger and bigger Mansions. Don't you think that makes people grumpy? They cannot stay afloat and others are swimming in wealth. Does it surprise you that people start thinking about themselves? They have to in order to keep their sanity. Stop pointing fingers at those who stay poor while making the rich richer. The Walmart Heirs are just one example.


It's the rich who have a sense of entitlement, not the people poor enough to qualify for what are stupidly referred to as "entitlements." I can't find the piece I read recently, but here's an interesting article from a couple of years ago http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2013/10/05/rich-people-just-care-less/?referrer= which I'm sure won't surprise you. (I can't copy and paste - I'm on a train using my Nook as a tablet, but you get the point, I'm sure.)


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Huckleberry

You are correct Huck. When I grew up most of the world just didn't talk or acknowledge that the 'bad things' happened. Girls who got pregnant were usually sent to" visit relatives" (actually many went to the Salvation army) We have had no problem with racism towards blacks because in the schools I went to there were only two blacks that I remember. One was in my group and he was not as far as I know faced with 
racism. We didn't know what the word meant. I really don't remember any feelings of superiority against him. I do know from experience that abuse (in families) was not talked about. Women didn't leave home because of abuse - it was not acknowledged and I remember my Mom telling us to keep it a secret how we were treated at home and we did.

There were no first nations people in our school that I remember, but I learned last week that ALL first nations children were sent to the Residential schools. I won't repeat what happened there (there is a post of mine which explains it all). As a result we lived in somewhat of a vacuum. As we grew up we saw that the Indians didn't live like we did (in separate districts) which were poorer in many cases. I believed that is still happening in the States as well as here. In this area there are many reservations and many many first nations people. They are standing up to be counted here in Canada, and at least SOME Canadians are really listening. thank heavens.

Things are so different than they were when I was a teen or we were young . Rob's (my son's) best friend in New Zealand was a
Maori boy. Their group was about half and half and I remember Rob being so upset that an adult had insulted the maori boys. I think if you don't grow up with racism it isn't part of your thought process.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Huckleberry
> 
> You are correct Huck. When I grew up most of the world just didn't talk or acknowledge that the 'bad things' happened. Girls who got pregnant were usually sent to" visit relatives" (actually many went to the Salvation army) We have had no problem with racism towards blacks because in the schools I went to there were only two blacks that I remember. One was in my group and he was not as far as I know faced with
> racism. We didn't know what the word meant. I really don't remember any feelings of superiority against him. I do know from experience that abuse (in families) was not talked about. Women didn't leave home because of abuse - it was not acknowledged and I remember my Mom telling us to keep it a secret how we were treated at home and we did.
> ...


You're so right, Designer. Native Americans and their reservations (in my experience, anyway) have been more or less invisible until fairly recently, when the casinos opened up. I know such places are an important source of revenue for many tribes, but something's not working out as it was meant to. It's pretty sobering to see a large, glittering casino surrounded by a collection of rundown shacks and trailers.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> Living very close to this area, essentially what occurred what a teenager who did not live near this addition posted an invitation to a party at a park in this neighborhood. Numerous teens attended and they then decided to jump the fence to the pool. This neighborhood, like mine, has an HOA and so it is a private pool. The DJ that the teen hired was playing music not conducive to family get togethers.
> 
> What happened then is still a little gray - a white mother who was there with her small children used racist language and then then all hell broke loose. The teenagers did not even live near this neighborhood. We call the police in my addition when we see teens jumping the fence to our pool because they have vandalized it before and that increases our fees. Plus, it is trespassing.
> 
> Now we have protests going on and I think it's sad that it has come to this. There is blame for both parties.


That's pretty fascinating, GW--it's not often we hear from someone directly involved in a breaking news story.

I agree that there's a lot of blame to go around--the kids were trespassing and the police didn't handle it right at all. Thank God no one was hurt, though.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> From an Australian perspective I cannot agree with your statement.
> 
> Whilst only 3% of the Australian population are classified as Indigenous Australians some areas have a much higher percentage. This does not mean that many Australians can go for weeks without seeing an Indigenous person, unless they live in the ultra rich suburbs such as Peppermint Grove, but then you could say that people in those ultra rich suburbs live an isolated, 'Ivory Tower' existence.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure you got my point. I don't at all excuse the racism that is becoming more obvious in the US; I'm simply giving one reason for Canada's (and specifically Canada) seeming to be so much less racist than the US: there's just less occasion for bigotry to show itself in Canada, at least white vs. black bigotry. Quebec has French vs. English bigotry; also, the First Nations have been treated very badly.

We've had civil rights legislation since the mid-1960s, but in some parts of the country it's practically ignored. And recently the Supreme Court weakened the Voting Rights Act, saying it's not needed any more because nobody is denied the right to vote. HAHAHAA. I see no justification for this, and my statistical message is not an attempt to justify what we do here but just an attempt to show how Canada's record on civil rights is not comparable to ours. Australia is a younger country and has been able to learn from the mistakes we've made, or at least I hope that accounts for some of our differences.

The truth is, we've been slipping backwards in this area, to the point of blatant racism, but I can't help thinking that's a human failing, not just an American one.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm not sure I can agree that morals have gone out the window since the 50s and 60s, Nebraska. After all, those were the days when blatant segregation and racism were acceptable, and I'm sure we can all breath a sigh of relief that those times are behind us.
> 
> As for things like unwed motherhood, cheating, and divorce, the rates are definitely up--but I'm not convinced these unhappy situations didn't exist in the past. Men abused their wives and had affairs, and the Little Woman was expected to button her lip and accept it or (worse still) lay out a strategy for reforming and/or winning back her man. Ugh! That sort of thing doesn't count as moral in my book.


Nor should unwed motherhood, which may be foolish or self-destructive, but not immoral (except by an old definition that has more to do with religion than morality).


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> You're so right, Designer. Native Americans and their reservations (in my experience, anyway) have been more or less invisible until fairly recently, when the casinos opened up. I know such places are an important source of revenue for many tribes, but something's not working out as it was meant to. It's pretty sobering to see a large, glittering casino surrounded by a collection of rundown shacks and trailers.


Same up here. In our case 7 generations of children were removed to the Residential schools. Money has been paid for reservation land rental, but how do they know how to handle money? There were no real school classes. They were brainwashed to think that being an indian is at the bottom of the barrel. They are 'worthless' we wonder why they don't 'fit in' They have had generations of abuse from the Governmenrts and the white citizens.Generations of hearing how useless they are. They also were abused in some way on a daily basis. then released and the next generation was taught the same things. No one even discusses it. The Government has remained silent on the promises made by the Commission. I think it will affect the next election here. I hope it does. We did it to them, we should make amends and try to help them feel self worth and feel as if they have a right to be proud of their heritage.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> Living very close to this area, essentially what occurred what a teenager who did not live near this addition posted an invitation to a party at a park in this neighborhood. Numerous teens attended and they then decided to jump the fence to the pool. This neighborhood, like mine, has an HOA and so it is a private pool. The DJ that the teen hired was playing music not conducive to family get togethers.
> ------------------------------------
> I changed my mind about answering except to say that I thought it was against the law to segregate schools, or any other places in the US? What happened to that Law. I realize some jumped the fence. They should have been removed. However what happened prior to the police arriving was set up from what I hear, by the white Mother who insulted and it is said slapped a young black girl, as well as the white man who told them to go back to where they belong (and named the area where they were allowed to swim. In otherwords, go back to your ghetto.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> - - - - -
> 
> As for things like unwed motherhood, cheating, and divorce, the rates are definitely up--but I'm not convinced these unhappy situations didn't exist in the past. Men abused their wives and had affairs, and the Little Woman was expected to button her lip and accept it or (worse still) lay out a strategy for reforming and/or winning back her man. Ugh! That sort of thing doesn't count as moral in my book.


I spent my upper elementary and high school years in a small town and my parents continued to live there another 18 years. You get to know things about people, even if you are not an active yenta. You know which kids at the high school are pregnant and which of them are from older married guys. You know whose dads get drunk and beat up on their moms. You know who the philanderers are and who the embezzlers are. I am sure this stuff has been going on as long as there have been people. Nowadays with instant messaging, camera phones, facebook, and twitter the information gets out more and to more people. Maybe that is why it seems more prevalent. There were scandals with movie stars when we were kids but they were hidden. Errol Flynn, anyone? Still doesn't sit well with those of us who try to walk the moral high road, but in a way it makes the issues more teachable to kids and grandkids because it is not a bunch of hidden issues.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Nor should unwed motherhood, which may be foolish or self-destructive, but not immoral (except by an old definition that has more to do with religion than morality).


So true, Purl. I've never understood the views of conservatives as far as that goes--they declare abortion murder but then heap scorn and condemnation on women who've chosen NOT to have the procedure and are struggling to raise their kids on their own. It's never made sense, but then they (conservatives) generally don't.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> GWPlver said:
> 
> 
> > Living very close to this area, essentially what occurred what a teenager who did not live near this addition posted an invitation to a party at a park in this neighborhood. Numerous teens attended and they then decided to jump the fence to the pool. This neighborhood, like mine, has an HOA and so it is a private pool. The DJ that the teen hired was playing music not conducive to family get togethers.
> ...


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> I'm not sure you got my point. I don't at all excuse the racism that is becoming more obvious in the US; I'm simply giving one reason for Canada's (and specifically Canada) seeming to be so much less racist than the US: there's just less occasion for bigotry to show itself in Canada, at least white vs. black bigotry. Quebec has French vs. English bigotry; also, the First Nations have been treated very badly.
> 
> We've had civil rights legislation since the mid-1960s, but in some parts of the country it's practically ignored. And recently the Supreme Court weakened the Voting Rights Act, saying it's not needed any more because nobody is denied the right to vote. HAHAHAA. I see no justification for this, and my statistical message is not an attempt to justify what we do here but just an attempt to show how Canada's record on civil rights is not comparable to ours. Australia is a younger country and has been able to learn from the mistakes we've made, or at least I hope that accounts for some of our differences.
> 
> The truth is, we've been slipping backwards in this area, to the point of blatant racism, but I can't help thinking that's a human failing, not just an American one.


I agree l00% - we were not raised in the same situation as those in the US . I remember reading history books about Slavery and the civil war, but it wasn't anything that affected me, or other Canadians. We cannot say we are better than the States, eg. our history with the Indians. We don't have the history of a civil war over slavery, nor do we have a huge black population. I understand and agree with you l00%.

I am surprised though that the laws of the nation are ignored. I also seem to feel that the Civil war is raising its ugly head again, between those who hate the blacks and those who don't. It seems in some ways as if Religion is involved with these events far too much. Sad indeed.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> GWPlver said:
> 
> 
> > Living very close to this area, essentially what occurred what a teenager who did not live near this addition posted an invitation to a party at a park in this neighborhood. Numerous teens attended and they then decided to jump the fence to the pool. This neighborhood, like mine, has an HOA and so it is a private pool. The DJ that the teen hired was playing music not conducive to family get togethers.
> ...


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> ------------------------------------
> I changed my mind about answering except to say that I thought it was against the law to segregate schools, or any other places in the US? What happened to that Law. I realize some jumped the fence. They should have been removed. However what happened prior to the police arriving was set up from what I hear, by the white Mother who insulted and it is said slapped a young black girl, as well as the white man who told them to go back to where they belong (and named the area where they were allowed to swim. In otherwords, go back to your ghetto.


The pool party incident in Texas wasn't about race. Not everything that goes wrong is about race, so I would hope you would consider and repeat the facts instead of evaluating something you offer only your opinions.

The facts I've heard reported is that a 20 year old black woman advertised a party, specifically a pool party, to be held in a public park (with food/drink on a grassed area) BUT the pool to be allegedly used was in a private, gated community. ONLY residents (and invited guests) are allowed to use that particular pool and there is a maximum of 20 people HOA rule for residents. The pool CANNOT be reserved for private parties.

Furthermore, the "party planner" not only publicly advertised the party, but she also was using her 'event' for profit - her profit - she has done events before for a source of income.

She advertised a cover charge for the "pool party" and hired a DJ who also used social media to invite participation.

Those, the majority, who came to the 'party' did not reside in the community, but came from surrounding neighborhoods and were dropped off and came by cars. It was reported approximately 130-150 non-residents attended the FOR PROFIT party advertised. Many jumped the fence to the gated PRIVATE pool and accosted the security guard on site. At least one non-resident, paying party guest, attacked a mother with her three young children in the pool area. RESIDENTS tried to control the MOB, assist the security guard and young mother and her children and one cop nearby as the 'party attendees' trespassed by jumping the pool fencing and began yelling and screaming profanities at the residents as they attempted to take over the pool area for their 'party'.

Meanwhile the hired DJ played F Bomb music not appropriate in a public family park.

Eleven cops eventually were present to attempt to control the mob and have them leave the residents and families to their neighborhood and pool. Words were exchanged between outsiders and residents regardless of race and gender as the residents were trying to control the 130+ people who came to the party but trespassed and caused trouble on private property.

One cop who just came from two reported calls of suicide attempts threw the young teen to the ground (the video being shown repeatedly) and the cop has already apologized and resigned from the police force because he used excessive tactics to control her.

It all began with a teenage girl looking to make a buck using both public and PRIVATE property and not following the rules of a private HOA and gated community/pool she wanted to use. It had NOTHING to do with racism; it had to do with her greed and ignorance.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> One of the videos of this incident shows the white woman actually lapping the girl's face. Sorry I cannot post a link at the moment.


I cannot find the actual video but believe me I did see it when I posted my initial report. It seems to have been pulled. A little information that I gathered when I tried to find the video. You will see that a girl mentions that she was slapped in the face by a white woman. Others also comment on a white woman slapping a girl's face.

Incident that sparked Texas pool party chaos - Radio Sandwell
www.radiosandwell.co.uk/.../incident-that-sparked-texas-pool-party-chao...

3 days ago - At the same time, an unidentified white woman is said to have ... In particular, a video of one officer throwing a girl to the ground, pushing her face into the ... moved towards the girl to help, they were accused of trying to attack ... 4 - One of the White GROWN women assaulted a 14 year old girl - SLAPPING ...

http://www.radiosandwell.co.uk/afro/incident-that-sparked-texas-pool-party-chaos
The mainstream media is putting out a LOT OF MISINFORMATION regarding the McKinney POLICE POLICE BRUTALITY CASE. Here are all the REAL FACTS:
1 - A resident of the COMPLEX IN QUESTION in McKinney Texas, named Tatiana Rose, invited a group of friends OF ALL RACES to the pool in her SUBDIVISION. Yes, she LIVES there.
2 - A bunch of GROWN White women started berating the Black teenagers with RACIAL SLURS, telling them to "go back to their SECTION 8 HOUSING." Most of the children at the event live either IN OR VERY NEAR the subdivision.
3 - The White teenagers in the group STOOD UP for their Black friends, and joined them in CONFRONTING the racist GROWN WOMEN.
4 -* One of the White GROWN women assaulted a 14 year old girl - SLAPPING HER IN THE FACE - and that's when things got out of control.*
5 - NO TEENAGER is accused to assaulting, vandalizing, or doing ANYTHING other than being loud and upset.
6 - When the police were called, they did not ask ANY White person, including the White teenagers that ATTENDED TATIANA'S PARTY, onto the ground. Only BLACK TEENS were profiled by the police.
7 - A few Black teenagers that LIVED IN the subdivison, but were NOT AT TATIANA'S party - were ordered to the ground by the CORRPUT police.
And FINALLY . . .
The police OFFICER who was on video being abusive was NOT FIRED . . . and he was NOT SUSPENDED. He was placed on "ADMINISTRATIVE LEAVE" meaning he is STILL GETTING PAID AND STILL HAS HIS GUN. He has NOT been charged with ANY CRIME either.

- See more at: http://www.radiosandwell.co.uk/afro/incident-that-sparked-texas-pool-party-chaos#sthash.4IRZxWqb.dpuf


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> The pool party incident in Texas wasn't about race. Not everything that goes wrong is about race, so I would hope you would consider and repeat the facts instead of evaluating something you offer only your opinions.
> 
> The facts I've heard reported is that a 20 year old black woman advertised a party, specifically a pool party, to be held in a public park (with food/drink on a grassed area) BUT the pool to be allegedly used was in a private, gated community. ONLY residents (and invited guests) are allowed to use that particular pool and there is a maximum of 20 people HOA rule for residents. The pool CANNOT be reserved for private parties.
> 
> ...


Did you actually watch the video and listen to the comments. Yes, there are videos that have audio and the language used by that out of control copper was racist. And the copper did far more than just throw the teenager to the ground, he knelt with his full force on a young girl's back. It was lucky he did not break her back. It was racist. White youths were not tackled or detained, only black youths. There is more than one video and none of them support your distorted view.

Where did you get this information


> At least one non-resident, paying party guest, attacked a mother with her three young children in the pool area.


 as there is evidence that the white woman attacked the girl and slapped her face. I did see that video, unfortunately it has been pulled, but you are the only person making comments that the white woman was attacked by a party goer.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> as there is evidence that the white woman attacked the girl and slapped her face. I did see that video, unfortunately it has been pulled, but you are the only person making comments that the white woman was attacked by a party goer.


I listen to the FACTUAL reports, watched the videos and believe my own eyes. I didn't simply report what others have expressed as their opinions. Your report says the policeman was placed on leave - also inaccurate according to what I heard reported. He RESIGNED meaning he turned in his badge and weapons. Perhaps he was put on leave after his resignation.

Also, I saw the cop having ONE knee on her back and him being on either the balls or heels of his feet. How exactly is that his "full force?" He was about to use his free hand (not on the girl) to probably get his cuff links to restrain her. Meanwhile two men came up behind the cop and he rose and withdrew his gun (also an excessive reaction that two other cops corrected.) I think the cop handled that girl in the extreme, but I do not agree with your description from what I saw in two videos.

I am NOT the only person 'making comments that the white woman was attacked.' I, like you, was not there but LISTEN and take the FACTS as reported and in context.

I didn't even mention color in what I posted except that the 'party planner' was a young black woman. So stop trying to put words in my mouth and say my view is distorted. I didn't bring up anyone's race or say anyone acted racist - you did. I said it WASN'T about race because it WASN'T.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I listen to the FACTUAL reports, watched the videos and believe my own eyes. I didn't simply report what others have expressed as their opinions. Your report says the policeman was placed on leave - also inaccurate according to what I heard reported. He RESIGNED meaning he turned in his badge and weapons.
> 
> I am NOT the only person 'making comments that the white woman was attacked.' I, like you, was not there but LISTEN and take the FACTS as reported and in context.
> 
> BTW: I didn't even mention color in what I posted except that the 'party planner' was a young black woman. So stop trying to put words in my mouth. I didn't bring up anyone's race or say anyone acted racist - you did. I said it WASN'T about race because it WASN'T.


He resigned after he was placed on leave. Here are two links to him being placed on leave but there are more out there if you care to check. I have also read reports that certain people are twisting the facts to blame the teens and it seems that you have read that misinformation.

A McKinney police officer is on leave after a video was posted over the weekend showing him throwing a teenage girl to the ground and sitting on her and drawing his gun on other teens at a pool party disturbance.

http://www.fox4news.com/story/29258682/mckinney-police-officer-on-administrative-leave-after-video-of-disturbance-is-posted-online

Chief Greg Conley of the McKinney Police Department said that the video had prompted an internal affairs investigation and that* Officer Casebolt, a patrol supervisor, had been placed on administrative leave.*

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/us/mckinney-tex-pool-party-dispute-leads-to-police-officer-suspension.html


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> He resigned after he was placed on leave. Here are two links to him being placed on leave but there are more out there if you care to check. I have also read reports that certain people are twisting the facts to blame the teens and it seems that you have read that misinformation.
> 
> A McKinney police officer is on leave after a video was posted over the weekend showing him throwing a teenage girl to the ground and sitting on her and drawing his gun on other teens at a pool party disturbance.
> 
> ...


Give me a break Eve. I DIDN'T mention race and specifically said it isn't about race. I don't give a darn whether the officer resigned before or after he was placed on leave. The cop over reacted, probably had reason to do so, but regardless, is no longer an active duty cop.

I'm grateful how the eleven cops handled and diffused a mob of over 130 people who REFUSED to obey the cops after they began a ruckus, trespassed, physically and verbally attacked residents and private property and am happy no one or thing was seriously injured.

You are claiming the incident was racist, that a white woman attacked the non-residents, you ASSUMED the woman who was attacked (along with her children) was WHITE who I wrote about that you don't even know about, and you claim the cop was a racist (his words) and that ONLY blacks were detained, manhandled or arrested. YOU are making the incident about race. It was about a 20 year old trying to MAKE MONEY.

Then the professional race hustlers did what they always do, came to town to show up to try to make more MONEY and make the incident all about race when that is NOT and was never the point of fact.

You believe the hype or whatever you want; I'll go with the FACTS.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Give me a break Eve. I DIDN'T mention race and specifically said it isn't about race. I don't give a darn whether the officer resigned before or after he was placed on leave.
> 
> You are claiming the incident was racist, that white woman attacked the non-residents, you ASSUMED the woman who was attacked (along with her children) was WHITE, or at least not black, you claim the cop was a racist and that ONLY blacks were detained, manhandled or arrested. YOU are making the incident about race. It was about a 20 year old trying to MAKE MONEY.
> 
> ...


I know you will not believe this, you probably will not even read it. You will only stay with your views, gained from the misinformation that is now being put out so nice people like you can feel comfortable and avoid the true facts.

http://www.radiosandwell.co.uk/afro/incident-that-sparked-texas-pool-party-chaos

*The mainstream media is putting out a LOT OF MISINFORMATION regarding the McKinney POLICE POLICE BRUTALITY CASE. Here are all the REAL FACTS:*
1 - A resident of the COMPLEX IN QUESTION in McKinney Texas, named Tatiana Rose, invited a group of friends OF ALL RACES to the pool in her SUBDIVISION. Yes, she LIVES there.
2 - A bunch of GROWN White women started berating the Black teenagers with RACIAL SLURS, telling them to "go back to their SECTION 8 HOUSING." Most of the children at the event live either IN OR VERY NEAR the subdivision.
3 - The White teenagers in the group STOOD UP for their Black friends, and joined them in CONFRONTING the racist GROWN WOMEN.
4 - One of the White GROWN women assaulted a 14 year old girl - SLAPPING HER IN THE FACE - and that's when things got out of control.
5 - NO TEENAGER is accused to assaulting, vandalizing, or doing ANYTHING other than being loud and upset.
6 - When the police were called, they did not ask ANY White person, including the White teenagers that ATTENDED TATIANA'S PARTY, onto the ground. Only BLACK TEENS were profiled by the police.
7 - A few Black teenagers that LIVED IN the subdivison, but were NOT AT TATIANA'S party - were ordered to the ground by the CORRPUT police.
And FINALLY . . .
The police OFFICER who was on video being abusive was NOT FIRED . . . and he was NOT SUSPENDED. He was placed on "ADMINISTRATIVE LEAVE" meaning he is STILL GETTING PAID AND STILL HAS HIS GUN. He has NOT been charged with ANY CRIME either.

- See more at: http://www.radiosandwell.co.uk/afro/incident-that-sparked-texas-pool-party-chaos#sthash.4IRZxWqb.dpuf

I am not discussing this with you any further as you are the one who is not going with the correct facts, you are the one making the assumptions. It was a racial attack and it seems you are unable to see that. You are the only one talking about professional race hustlers. The policeman was placed on administrative leave before he resigned so your statement


> I don't give a darn whether the officer resigned before or after he was placed on leave


 simply shows your bias. And yes the woman who attacked the girl and slapped her face was white. She was even named, and it was suggested that she was a pool attendant. But I expected no more from you than what you posted. Just try and stay with facts and not hearsay that you believe are facts.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I am not discussing this with you any further as you are the one who is not going with the correct facts, you are the one making the assumptions. It was a racial attack and it seems you are unable to see that. You are the only one talking about professional race hustlers. The policeman was placed on administrative leave before he resigned so your statement
> Quote:
> I don't give a darn whether the officer resigned before or after he was placed on leave
> simply shows your bias. And yes the woman who attacked the girl and slapped her face was white. She was even named, and it was suggested that she was a pool attendant. But I expected no more from you than what you posted. Just try and stay with facts and not hearsay that you believe are facts.


Uh, huh. You believe your rumors, I'll stick with the facts AND continue to not call everyone a racist as you are attempting to do.

Texas and the USA is all colors - do you know that? All colors and races and genders were present. It doesn't matter what anyone's color is. The FACTS are that 130+ NON RESIDENTS attempted to take over a PRIVATE POOL and the residents, security and one cop in the immediate area. When the RESIDENTS couldn't subdue the NON RESIDENT ATTACKERS and TROUBLEMAKERS of ANY race/color - additional policeman were called to the scene. The policemen tried to control the situation and diffused the incident and crowd. PERIOD

I made NO assumptions. I stated the FACTS I've heard and seen to date.

My comment that I couldn't care less when the cop resigned shows NO bias. If the guy is guilty, I don't care what color he or his victim is - he's guilty and will have to be held accountable for his actions! Get over your hatred and stop bringing race into every sentence. THIS INCIDENT was NOT a racist incident!

As far as my mention of professional race hustlers - look at the videos of Fergurson, Baltimore and now Texas. The race baiters came to town and can be heard on their microphones rallying up business. You need to learn about how these guys work and make their money; it ain't pretty.

No wonder I haven't read this rumor mill thread lately. It's a complete waste of time except if one likes tabloids and folks always insulting and berating others unnecessarily.

Good day.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> So true, Purl. I've never understood the views of conservatives as far as that goes--they declare abortion murder but then heap scorn and condemnation on women who've chosen NOT to have the procedure and are struggling to raise their kids on their own. It's never made sense, but then they (conservatives) generally don't.


It's true, you DON'T understand conservatives! I don't know any conservatives who heap scorn and condemnation on women who choose not to have an abortion. I do however, know a lot who do everything they can to help these women. You should probably know some conservatives, before you speak for them.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I agree l00% - we were not raised in the same situation as those in the US . I remember reading history books about Slavery and the civil war, but it wasn't anything that affected me, or other Canadians. We cannot say we are better than the States, eg. our history with the Indians. We don't have the history of a civil war over slavery, nor do we have a huge black population. I understand and agree with you l00%.
> 
> I am surprised though that the laws of the nation are ignored. I also seem to feel that the Civil war is raising its ugly head again, between those who hate the blacks and those who don't. It seems in some ways as if Religion is involved with these events far too much. Sad indeed.


How is religion involved in whether or not people hate blacks? I am shocked by some of the statements made on this thread. Sometimes I think that people just repeat any hateful thing they might have heard somewhere. I'd like to see some evidence to back up these outrageous statements. I'm not aware of any religion that advocates hatred towards blacks. Please document this.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It's true, you DON'T understand conservatives! I don't know any conservatives who heap scorn and condemnation on women who choose not to have an abortion. I do however, know a lot who do everything they can to help these women. You should probably know some conservatives, before you speak for them.


 :thumbup:


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

My oh my. Fence jumping again? Of course.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> I'm grateful how the eleven cops handled and diffused a mob of over 130 people who REFUSED to obey the cops after they began a ruckus, trespassed, physically and verbally attacked residents and private property and am happy no one or thing was seriously injured.
> 
> You are claiming the incident was racist, that a white woman attacked the non-residents, you ASSUMED the woman who was attacked (along with her children) was WHITE who I wrote about that you don't even know about, and you claim the cop was a racist (his words) and that ONLY blacks were detained, manhandled or arrested. YOU are making the incident about race. It was about a 20 year old trying to MAKE MONEY.
> 
> ...


===========================================================================-------------------------------
Yes , of course you do think it was perfectly okay. That is to be expected from you.

She was a danger to him, after all she was l4 years old in a bathing suit which was not A BIKINI but a two piece bathing suit. o Young men who tried to stop and take his attention away from her or possibly talk him out of hurting her, or were trying to draw his attention away from hurting her,were threatened that he would shoot them, that was after he had pulled his gun. So they ran off. He was running after them with his gun drawn, yelling curses when two others took over and he went back to the girl who was sitting still, not doing anything. The girl did not try to get away, nor did she even stand up. He deliberately went back and dragged her and rolled her over pulling her by the hair and then either sat on her or kneed her. If an out of control police officer was aiming at you or your child, would you stand there?

I am amazed that anyone is so arrogant to say that in the cases shown this past couple of months was caused by professional race hustlers,including this one that the police have the right to shoot people (unarmed) people in the back who they have terrified and who are trying to get away and not be shot, in the back. Not oneof the instances have I seen anyone stooting at the police officer. I see them all trying to get awayfrom being shot (with good reason). There are many of you out there. the police chief won't admit that he did anything wrong in the way he treated that child. Obviously everything is allowed if the victim is black in the minds of many people like you.

. Anyway I am not going to carry this on- it has been really refreshing to have you leave us alone. Please continue to do so. You expressed your point we should have expected nothing less. I will not reply no matter how outrageous your future posts. Actually I feel quite nauseated and have no further interest in starting a further conversation with you.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It's true, you DON'T understand conservatives! I don't know any conservatives who heap scorn and condemnation on women who choose not to have an abortion. I do however, know a lot who do everything they can to help these women. You should probably know some conservatives, before you speak for them.


Ridiculous, Nebraska. I remember a month or two back when Knit Crazy suggested that unmarried mothers who couldn't or wouldn't name their baby's father should have ALL their partners listed on the birth certificate or get the thing stamped "product of rape". If that isn't an attempt to shame unmarried mothers and their children for life over the circumstances of the birth, I don't know what is.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Ridiculous, Nebraska. I remember a month or two back when Knit Crazy suggested that unmarried mothers who couldn't or wouldn't name their baby's father should have ALL their partners listed on the birth certificate or get the thing stamped "product of rape". If that isn't an attempt to shame unmarried mothers and their children for life over the circumstances of the birth, I don't know what is.


There's almost always miscommunication when he word "conservative" is used around Nebraska. She regards herself as conservative, in the original sense, and I'm sure she is.But she is not *a Conservative* in the more recent usage. Nebraska is as different from Knit Crazy as she is from me, in fact probably more so. So you speak about Conservatives and some of the absurd, inhumane things they say and do and she reads it as lower-case conservative, applies it to her own case, and is upset.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if so, Multi-Grandma can correct me.
.........................................................................................................................

I'm more interested in why the McKinney cop was looking for his cuff links (http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-337427-159.html#7466119) while holding the girl down. Was he planning to take her to a formal post-melee dance?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Ridiculous, Nebraska. I remember a month or two back when Knit Crazy suggested that unmarried mothers who couldn't or wouldn't name their baby's father should have ALL their partners listed on the birth certificate or get the thing stamped "product of rape". If that isn't an attempt to shame unmarried mothers and their children for life over the circumstances of the birth, I don't know what is.


I agree, that was just a small amount of what she has posted recently.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

double post - sorry


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> How is religion involved in whether or not people hate blacks? I am shocked by some of the statements made on this thread. Sometimes I think that people just repeat any hateful thing they might have heard somewhere. I'd like to see some evidence to back up these outrageous statements. I'm not aware of any religion that advocates hatred towards blacks. Please document this.


It is my opinion. The Christianity I follow is not the same as many many others follow.
I am surprised that anything we say should shock you - you spend your whole time trying to shock us and change our core beliefs.
We are individuals and have our own opinions. I don't intend to argue about my statement . 
I personally did not in any way say that any religion teaches us to hate blacks. However it is a fact that people convince themselves the wrong is right in the name of Religion and it happens a lot..

There are very few Christians on these threads including the general chit chat who acknowledge that the police have made decisions and moves that are not okay. That is a fact. - there are many excuses for all their actions. I don't happen to agree with them . I am not saying they are going by their beliefs, but they don't acknowledge that their beliefs are opposite to what their Church Teaches.

I am not sure whether you took offense at my innocuous statement that I feel things are changing and not for the better. Or someone elses post insulted you.

Also,as you know that part of our Christianity was the Residential schools where Indian children were strapped for speaking their own language, before they even know how to speak English. Who were never allowed contact with their own people, some who died and were placed in an unmarked grave, -and they included ALL the good Christian Churches at that time. The same thing has happened down there. Look how the Good Christians treated 'their' slaves. So don't pretent the Churches are perfect. they are not

I am glad people are taking pictures - we all need a wake up call and should not hide our head in the sand and say something is right, when it is wrong and pretend it is 
what Jesus would want us to say and feel.

All I am going to say.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> How is religion involved in whether or not people hate blacks? I am shocked by some of the statements made on this thread. Sometimes I think that people just repeat any hateful thing they might have heard somewhere. I'd like to see some evidence to back up these outrageous statements. I'm not aware of any religion that advocates hatred towards blacks. Please document this.


Well I went to a Catholic Convent and the statements I heard made were made by the nuns and many of those statement definitely advocated hatred towards black people. We were taught that the black slaves in America were definitely sub human and no where near as intelligent as white people. It was the nuns who made the statement "if you gave an Aboriginal pencil and paper and gave a monkey pencil and paper the monkey would produce a better drawing than the Aboriginal". You should have heard what was said about the Tasmanian Aboriginals. The nuns told us that they were the 'most primitive and ignorant people who ever walked the face of the earth'. That is nothing but a dreadful racial slur. Unfortunately remarks such as these were not documented and therefore cannot be traced and produced. Unfortunately some older people, and indeed some younger people, still believe that people with black skins are less intelligent than people with white skin. Remember the 'curse of Cain'? We were taught that the 'curse of Cain' was God turning Cain's skin back because he had murdered his brother and the black man carries that curse to this day. Yes, that was taught from the pulpit of the Catholic church in the 40s and 50s, at least it was in Australia, I cannot speak about what was taught from the pulpit of the Catholic church in other countries but someone here may have similar memories of learning about the 'curse of Cain'. I honestly believe that is why so many people think that a man is inferior because he has more melanin in his skin than white folk.

These are not outrageous statement that some people may have heard somewhere and are now repeating. These are statements that people actually heard made. These people who recall those memories are not delusional but they do remember. You are not aware of any religion that advocates hatred towards blacks. No, not today but we are talking about things that happened in the past. Some of us on KP are a lot older than you and therefore have memories that were made before you were born. Please document this. Well that is not possible. Remember this was the 40s and 50s, before ipods with cameras, mobile cameras with cameras or portable recording devices. In those days recording devices were large and clumsy and used reel to reel magnetic tape that was about half an inch wide. But it did happen and we do remember. As I said our memories go back to before you were born.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> ===========================================================================-------------------------------
> Yes , of course you do think it was perfectly okay. That is to be expected from you.
> 
> She was a danger to him, after all she was l4 years old in a bathing suit which was not A BIKINI but a two piece bathing suit. o Young men who tried to stop and take his attention away from her or possibly talk him out of hurting her, or were trying to draw his attention away from hurting her,were threatened that he would shoot them, that was after he had pulled his gun. So they ran off. He was running after them with his gun drawn, yelling curses when two others took over and he went back to the girl who was sitting still, not doing anything. The girl did not try to get away, nor did she even stand up. He deliberately went back and dragged her and rolled her over pulling her by the hair and then either sat on her or kneed her. If an out of control police officer was aiming at you or your child, would you stand there?
> ...


Shirley, I know exactly how you feel and I agree with you. There is no use in arguing with someone who is so blind that they refuse to see. I went back and examined the original video I posted. From 3.50 minutes into the video until 3.59 minutes you can clearly see the police officer kneeling with both knees firmly planted on the girl's back. The left knee is placed on her neck just below her head and the right knee is placed in the middle of her back about her waist. He is applying his full weight to her back, he is not taking the weight on the balls of his feet. You can see that the only part of his feet that is touching the ground is the toes of his shoes. At 4.01 he raises himself onto one knee, his right knee. From 4.05 to 5.20 he remains with one knee in the middle of her back but he has changed his position so that he is actually sitting, or half sitting to be pedantic, on his right leg. This means that his full weight is then on the girl 's back. So much for the poster about whom we speak stating that he in not applying any weight or pressure to the girl's back because he is sitting on the balls of his feet. But, as they say, why would this poster spoil a good story with actual facts.

I remember watching the video before I posted the link. Inwardly I was screaming "get off her you great oaf, are you trying to break her back. I was inwardly screaming for someone to drag him off before he caused her serious injury.

But there is no sense pursuing this with the unnamed poster because to paraphrase an old saying 'there are none so blind as those who will not see and none so deaf as those who refuse to listen'.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> I cannot find the actual video but believe me I did see it when I posted my initial report. It seems to have been pulled. A little information that I gathered when I tried to find the video. You will see that a girl mentions that she was slapped in the face by a white woman. Others also comment on a white woman slapping a girl's face.
> 
> Incident that sparked Texas pool party chaos - Radio Sandwell
> www.radiosandwell.co.uk/.../incident-that-sparked-texas-pool-party-chao...
> ...


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> There's almost always miscommunication when he word "conservative" is used around Nebraska. She regards herself as conservative, in the original sense, and I'm sure she is.But she is not *a Conservative* in the more recent usage. Nebraska is as different from Knit Crazy as she is from me, in fact probably more so. So you speak about Conservatives and some of the absurd, inhumane things they say and do and she reads it as lower-case conservative, applies it to her own case, and is upset.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong, but if so, Multi-Grandma can correct me.
> .........................................................................................................................
> ...


Thanks for clearing that up, Purl--and sorry too, Nebraska, if I hurt your feelings. I certainly didn't mean that YOU hold such views.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

And I don't know if it is relevant to the inhuman prejudices against our fellow humans who happen to be of a darker skin color, but I have come across people who refuse to buy brown eggs and claim white eggs are "better".

There are people who have been indoctrinated all their lives to be racist, whether the racism is against the indigenous people of lands their ancestor invaded and stole from the original settlers or against people who are the descendents of those who were sold into slavery, just as there are people who have been indoctrinated all their lives to be antisemitic. Hateful prejudices have been instilled in them to the degree that they cannot reconcile themselves to the fact that they are bigots and just plain *wrong*.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> ===========================================================================-------------------------------
> Yes , of course you do think it was perfectly okay. That is to be expected from you.
> 
> She was a danger to him, after all she was l4 years old in a bathing suit which was not A BIKINI but a two piece bathing suit. o Young men who tried to stop and take his attention away from her or possibly talk him out of hurting her, or were trying to draw his attention away from hurting her,were threatened that he would shoot them, that was after he had pulled his gun. So they ran off. He was running after them with his gun drawn, yelling curses when two others took over and he went back to the girl who was sitting still, not doing anything. The girl did not try to get away, nor did she even stand up. He deliberately went back and dragged her and rolled her over pulling her by the hair and then either sat on her or kneed her. If an out of control police officer was aiming at you or your child, would you stand there?
> ...


Designer, you still are incapable of comprehending the written word. I NEVER said what transpired is 'perfectly OK with me.' Those are your ignorant words.

In the videos I've seen, the cop WAS NOT running after anyone with his gun drawn. The facts ARE, two males approached behind the cop who was wrestling and pinning the girl to the ground. The cop pulled his gun ONLY AFTER two males approached behind. Then he stood and took a few steps to follow the two males who subsequently ran off to the right. The 'kneeling' cop was encouraged to replace his gun by two other officers, who almost immediately appeared behind the cop also, one of whom ran after one of the males while the 2nd cop moved forward as well.

I would be after any one of my children who mocked, disobeyed, or cursed the policemen who were called to the scene BECAUSE of those actions by the 'invited participants' to the residents in the pool area. It was the mob who instigated an attack against a mother with her children. The MOB didn't belong where they were and caused the trouble NOT the residents according to the reports I've heard or read.

The girl who was forced to the ground DID not obey the cop, and I've said more than once I believed he over reacted. However, it isn't my business to find him guilty or innocent and neither is it upon you to convict the policeman in the court of general opinion. I thank God you cannot be a member of a USA jury as you make up your mind before knowing all the facts of the case.

You've immediately decided it was a racist event and wrong of the cop ONLY. What can you tell me about the other 100+ people who came to the pool party advertised by Tatiana Rhodes to make her a profit and to be held at a PRIVATE pool where she was personally allowed ONLY two guests? Why haven't you tried her and found her guilty for her invitation to the public?

Do you hold the 130+ attendees responsible for trespass? For the vandalism? For jumping the fence? For disruption of a private property area? For disturbing the peace? For not following the policemen/security guard or rules of the community? Do you believe Tatiana is innocent for inviting anyone/everyone to the park and pool? Is Tatiana guilty for fighting and grabbing the hair of the adult woman seen in one of the videos? How about is she guilty of lying to the cops and media for stating she did nothing but invite folks and hire a DJ? How do you justify her not mentioning the hair grabbing fight in which she WAS involved? You said you saw the videos - why did Tatiana deny she didn't get involved other than an invitation?

How about Tatiana's mother who didn't stop the hundred of non-residents converging into the pool area when Tatiana's mother was also only allowed TWO guests into the pool where she resides? How much action should the HOA take against Tatiana and her mother for not following the rules of their community and HOA guidelines? Who is to blame for ANYTHING that happened - not Tatiana or her mother?

You place all the blame on the one cop who was called in to subdue and diffuse the mob.

You are a fool to claim I say the recent events were caused by race hustlers. I NEVER said any such thing. You have rocks in your head to infer I said there is nothing wrong with shooting someone in the back nor did anyone get shot in this Texas incident nor did I EVER say or imply any such thing.

You shame yourself to claim I believe anything goes IF the victim is black. That is so vile and disgusting and vitriol not worthy of my response.

Do me a favor and PLEASE do ignore me as you said you would. I have had no problem ignoring you and will respond and post as I choose according to the TOS of KP. My questions are rhetorical and only meant to make you think.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Shirley, I know exactly how you feel and I agree with you. There is no use in arguing with someone who is so blind that they refuse to see. I went back and examined the original video I posted. From 3.50 minutes into the video until 3.59 minutes you can clearly see the police officer kneeling with both knees firmly planted on the girl's back. The left knee is placed on her neck just below her head and the right knee is placed in the middle of her back about her waist. He is applying his full weight to her back, he is not taking the weight on the balls of his feet. You can see that the only part of his feet that is touching the ground is the toes of his shoes. At 4.01 he raises himself onto one knee, his right knee. From 4.05 to 5.20 he remains with one knee in the middle of her back but he has changed his position so that he is actually sitting, or half sitting to be pedantic, on his right leg. This means that his full weight is then on the girl 's back. So much for the poster about whom we speak stating that he in not applying any weight or pressure to the girl's back because he is sitting on the balls of his feet. But, as they say, why would this poster spoil a good story with actual facts.
> 
> I remember watching the video before I posted the link. Inwardly I was screaming "get off her you great oaf, are you trying to break her back. I was inwardly screaming for someone to drag him off before he caused her serious injury.
> 
> But there is no sense pursuing this with the unnamed poster because to paraphrase an old saying 'there are none so blind as those who will not see and none so deaf as those who refuse to listen'.


Eve, I applaud you and Shirley for telling the truth. Some people cannot or will not believe the truth if it doesn't fit their idea of how the world operates. They only delude themselves. We at least have the courage and honesty to tell the truth even if it is not what we wish it would be. :thumbup:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> And I don't know if it is relevant to the inhuman prejudices against our fellow humans who happen to be of a darker skin color, but I have come across people who refuse to buy brown eggs and claim white eggs are "better".
> 
> There are people who have been indoctrinated all their lives to be racist, whether the racism is against the indigenous people of lands their ancestor invaded and stole from the original settlers or against people who are the descendents of those who were sold into slavery, just as there are people who have been indoctrinated all their lives to be antisemitic. Hateful prejudices have been instilled in them to the degree that they cannot reconcile themselves to the fact that they are bigots and just plain *wrong*.


Thanks for speaking the truth, Marilyn.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> It is my opinion. The Christianity I follow is not the same as many many others follow.
> I am surprised that anything we say should shock you - you spend your whole time trying to shock us and change our core beliefs.
> We are individuals and have our own opinions. I don't intend to argue about my statement .
> I personally did not in any way say that any religion teaches us to hate blacks. However it is a fact that people convince themselves the wrong is right in the name of Religion and it happens a lot..
> ...


Good-because what you said about Christians and Christianity is so off base, wrong and offensive it should be deleted.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

:XD:


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> :XD:


Love the Star Tribune cartoon. If Sack were following our topic, there is another name (pseudonym) I am sure that would have been added.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Shirley, I know exactly how you feel and I agree with you. There is no use in arguing with someone who is so blind that they refuse to see. I went back and examined the original video I posted. From 3.50 minutes into the video until 3.59 minutes you can clearly see the police officer kneeling with both knees firmly planted on the girl's back. The left knee is placed on her neck just below her head and the right knee is placed in the middle of her back about her waist. He is applying his full weight to her back, he is not taking the weight on the balls of his feet. You can see that the only part of his feet that is touching the ground is the toes of his shoes. At 4.01 he raises himself onto one knee, his right knee. From 4.05 to 5.20 he remains with one knee in the middle of her back but he has changed his position so that he is actually sitting, or half sitting to be pedantic, on his right leg. This means that his full weight is then on the girl 's back. So much for the poster about whom we speak stating that he in not applying any weight or pressure to the girl's back because he is sitting on the balls of his feet. But, as they say, why would this poster spoil a good story with actual facts.
> 
> I remember watching the video before I posted the link. Inwardly I was screaming "get off her you great oaf, are you trying to break her back. I was inwardly screaming for someone to drag him off before he caused her serious injury.
> 
> But there is no sense pursuing this with the unnamed poster because to paraphrase an old saying 'there are none so blind as those who will not see and none so deaf as those who refuse to listen'.


Do you ever speak the truth? Show me where I said the officer didn't apply any weight or pressure to the girl's back because he is sitting on the balls of his feet. When it doubt, you lie or make up words to put in another's mouth or to suit your agenda.

As you say, Martha, who shall not be named; why should you spoil a good racist story that you can MAKE UP. You cannot fix stupid so I won't even try.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Do you ever speak the truth? Show me where I said the officer didn't apply any weight or pressure to the girl's back because he is sitting on the balls of his feet. When it doubt, you lie or make up words to put in another's mouth or to suit your agenda.
> 
> As you say, Martha, who shall not be named; why should you spoil a good racist story that you can MAKE UP. You cannot fix stupid so I won't even try.


You are so right when you say one cannot fix stupid. Look in the mirror when you repeat that mantra.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Good-because what you said about Christians and Christianity is so off base, wrong and offensive it should be deleted.


The only thing that needs to be deleted from this thread is you. Do you see yourself as a masochist or do you have a martyr complex? So far you are the only thing out here that is offensive. Just because you have free run of KP your better judgement, if you posses the trait, should keep you away from liberal threads. Do you want your buddies on D&P to get a visit or don't you care about your so called friends and their peace in the never never land of the 1950's that they have created for themselves. It's up to you. You can be the heroine or the devil,saint or sinner. Take your pick. :XD:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> You are so right when you say one cannot fix stupid. Look in the mirror when you repeat that mantra.


Marilyn, word is either she has broken all her mirrors or she has no reflection and you know what that means. I'm betting on the second one and I have much better sources than she does. :XD:


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Marilyn, word is either she has broken all her mirrors or she has no reflection and you know what that means. I'm betting on the second one and I have much better sources than she does. :XD:


Cheeky, you are the best. Thanks for the .


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Just heard on Chris Hayes that McKinney is a very wealthy, predominantly white neighborhood. Draw your own inference.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Love the Star Tribune cartoon. If Sack were following our topic, there is another name (pseudonym) I am sure that would have been added.


He is a very good editorial cartoonist and we are lucky to have him in Mpls. You are correct about that other name too. :XD:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Cheeky, you are the best. Thanks for the .


Thanks, Marilyn. I need some more creative smilies too. Your's are great. Maybe the radiance from all our smiling faces has scared the creature away. Back to Transylvania. :XD: :twisted:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

. I


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> It is my opinion.
> 
> We are individuals and have our own opinions. I don't intend to argue about my statement .
> I personally did not in any way say that any religion teaches us to hate blacks. However it is a fact that people convince themselves the wrong is right in the name of Religion and it happens a lot..
> ...


ps. I changed some of what I posted. It didn't express properly what I was trying to express.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> .


I have watched a lot of the videos and in my opinion the police office definitely over reacted and was extremely heavy handed. I do not like the video clips that are purported to show the man reaching behind his back for a gun. To me he seemed more intent of shielding the girl and trying to stop the officer. There was absolutely no reason whatsoever for that police officer to draw a gun on teenagers who were wearing bathers. I think that facts are being doctored to suit people's version of the events.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Thanks for clearing that up, Purl--and sorry too, Nebraska, if I hurt your feelings. I certainly didn't mean that YOU hold such views.


neither did I think for a minute you felt that way. If it came across that way, I posted it incorrectly. Iwasn't even thinking of you as a Conservative as you have stated that you won't vote Conservative or Democrat. Once again, I was answering you but not including you. I have re written my post as I wasn't clear on what I was saying.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Thanks for clearing that up, Purl--and sorry too, Nebraska, if I hurt your feelings. I certainly didn't mean that YOU hold such views.


When I posted my comments on religious bodies making what can be termed racial slurs I was speaking from my personal recollections and memories. I spoke about the Catholic Church in Australia and what was said some 60 or more years ago. I also did not mean that Knitter from Nebraska held such views. I did point out that some posters are much older than she is and therefore have memories predating her birth. I stand by my statement that these statements were made by the Catholic Church in Australia at that time. I also said that I was not referring to the present day Catholic Church either in Australia or America. I apologise if my statements were taken as an attack on Knitter from Nebraska as it was not meant to be an attack on this poster.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> And I don't know if it is relevant to the inhuman prejudices against our fellow humans who happen to be of a darker skin color, but I have come across people who refuse to buy brown eggs and claim white eggs are "better".
> 
> There are people who have been indoctrinated all their lives to be racist, whether the racism is against the indigenous people of lands their ancestor invaded and stole from the original settlers or against people who are the descendents of those who were sold into slavery, just as there are people who have been indoctrinated all their lives to be antisemitic. Hateful prejudices have been instilled in them to the degree that they cannot reconcile themselves to the fact that they are bigots and just plain *wrong*.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Designer, you still are incapable of comprehending the written word. I NEVER said what transpired is 'perfectly OK with me.' Those are your ignorant words.
> 
> In the videos I've seen, the cop WAS NOT running after anyone with his gun drawn. The facts ARE, two males approached behind the cop who was wrestling and pinning the girl to the ground. The cop pulled his gun ONLY AFTER two males approached behind. Then he stood and took a few steps to follow the two males who subsequently ran off to the right. The 'kneeling' cop was encouraged to replace his gun by two other officers, who almost immediately appeared behind the cop also, one of whom ran after one of the males while the 2nd cop moved forward as well.
> 
> ...


None of that excuses police brutality. Police should DEFUSE situations instead of escalating them. It really doesn't matter who did what before the police intervened - they didn't handle the situation intelligently, which they are supposed to do. They are racists. And so is anyone who denies the reality of police brutality toward people of color.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I have watched a lot of the videos and in my opinion the police office definitely over reacted and was extremely heavy handed. I do not like the video clips that are purported to show the man reaching behind his back for a gun. To me he seemed more intent of shielding the girl and trying to stop the officer. There was absolutely no reason whatsoever for that police officer to draw a gun on teenagers who were wearing bathers. I think that facts are being doctored to suit people's version of the events.


Take a peek at right-wing sites to get a belly full of people claiming the police acted appropriately to a "threat" that didn't exist. Some people will defend police actions regardless of how brutal or indefensible. There is a very real problem with police in the US and blaming the victims is the consummate "cop out."


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Well I went to a Catholic Convent and the statements I heard made were made by the nuns and many of those statement definitely advocated hatred towards black people. We were taught that the black slaves in America were definitely sub human and no where near as intelligent as white people. It was the nuns who made the statement "if you gave an Aboriginal pencil and paper and gave a monkey pencil and paper the monkey would produce a better drawing than the Aboriginal". You should have heard what was said about the Tasmanian Aboriginals. The nuns told us that they were the 'most primitive and ignorant people who ever walked the face of the earth'. That is nothing but a dreadful racial slur. Unfortunately remarks such as these were not documented and therefore cannot be traced and produced. Unfortunately some older people, and indeed some younger people, still believe that people with black skins are less intelligent than people with white skin. Remember the 'curse of Cain'? We were taught that the 'curse of Cain' was God turning Cain's skin back because he had murdered his brother and the black man carries that curse to this day. Yes, that was taught from the pulpit of the Catholic church in the 40s and 50s, at least it was in Australia, I cannot speak about what was taught from the pulpit of the Catholic church in other countries but someone here may have similar memories of learning about the 'curse of Cain'. I honestly believe that is why so many people think that a man is inferior because he has more melanin in his skin than white folk.
> 
> These are not outrageous statement that some people may have heard somewhere and are now repeating. These are statements that people actually heard made. These people who recall those memories are not delusional but they do remember. You are not aware of any religion that advocates hatred towards blacks. No, not today but we are talking about things that happened in the past. Some of us on KP are a lot older than you and therefore have memories that were made before you were born. Please document this. Well that is not possible. Remember this was the 40s and 50s, before ipods with cameras, mobile cameras with cameras or portable recording devices. In those days recording devices were large and clumsy and used reel to reel magnetic tape that was about half an inch wide. But it did happen and we do remember. As I said our memories go back to before you were born.


================
That is so true - Eve.We have experienced by being there when life was very different. In l969 the only way we could talk to our family from NewZealand was by a phone link over the ocean. It was often not working. TV's down there were black and white as they were in North America. We came home in l973 and there was color television. that is when the world started to get smaller. Suddenly we saw pictures of Israel, of the US, of the beautiful spots around the world. We also saw some of the underneath things that were happening that weren't so nice, and very surprising. We had experiences that those who are even 20 years younger did not have.

My father was born in l899 where he lived in a little fishing village in Newfoundland. His father was a fisherman who had originally come to the Maritimes by sailing ship.Dad had to go to the city by boat. He worked on the first under sea cable company from Heart's Content NFLD to Ireland. Suddenly North Americans could talk to someone in Ireland -then it was improved and we could talk to places in Europe by phones through a cable under water. Then he saw people with cars, and motorcycles. People started buying trucks for their farms and businesses, instead of using horses and carriages.

Then trains were built and people could travel across the country on rails. Then he remembered hearing on the radio that people wanted to go to space. It was unbelievable to him and other people his age. He was alive when the Wright Brothers first flew. He was alive when the first plane flew across the US or Canada (I can't remember which). Then suddenly there were planes flying from one city to another . Then propellor planes travelled very long ways.

One of my old boyfriends was a pilot with the Canadian Airforce. He flew one of the first sabre jets in Canada before I was 20.It was a fighter plane and I believe one of the first jets in use anywhere.Then jets flew across the ocean. There was more in the way of improved phones,.Then there were companies who flew huge jets across the seas to Australia, New Zealand and Europe with passengers. Then they started talking about space. They walked on the Moon and there have been many space trips. 
Most of the major advances in companies like Apple (macs) were just getting really into computers etc. He would once again find it unbelievable the things that have happened with computers and the internet - I have friends all over the world that I have made on the internet.
He died in l985 and had seen the world change in every way imaginable and since he died the world has changed even more.
As a result Eve and some of the others on this thread, have
opinions that have changed over our lifetimes. It is one reason I rarely say things are black or white, as year by year advances are made and things change.Some things have not changed however. People my age are very familiar with the after affects of slavery and the treatment of the First peoples. It doesn't seem to really have changed nearly as much as I had thought. As I grow older still, I wonder if it will ever really change. It seems t me as if it is regressing or maybe it will stay as is. It would surprise me as things don't stay as they are.

We also lived through World War II and it affected many of us in different ways that will never be forgotten.

The world it changing and I doubt that any country or Government is going to stop it. We have to live with it. Some how we have to live together - with our different beliefs and ideas.


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## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> And I don't know if it is relevant to the inhuman prejudices against our fellow humans who happen to be of a darker skin color, but I have come across people who refuse to buy brown eggs and claim white eggs are "better".
> 
> There are people who have been indoctrinated all their lives to be racist, whether the racism is against the indigenous people of lands their ancestor invaded and stole from the original settlers or against people who are the descendents of those who were sold into slavery, just as there are people who have been indoctrinated all their lives to be antisemitic. Hateful prejudices have been instilled in them to the degree that they cannot reconcile themselves to the fact that they are bigots and just plain *wrong*.


Our first cat was a Burmese. These are wonderful cats, loving and affectionate; they are also beautiful, with sleek sable-colored fur. When one of my uncles came to visit, he asked me several times why I had such an ugly cat. After all, it was almost black. Hard to believe, but his prejudice toward dark-skinned people carried over to cats as well. Oh, well, he was my least-favorite relative, anyway.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Ridiculous, Nebraska. I remember a month or two back when Knit Crazy suggested that unmarried mothers who couldn't or wouldn't name their baby's father should have ALL their partners listed on the birth certificate or get the thing stamped "product of rape". If that isn't an attempt to shame unmarried mothers and their children for life over the circumstances of the birth, I don't know what is.


Just because one (or one hundred or one thousand) conservative(s) says something like that doesn't mean that conservatives as a group think like that. One conservative, speaks for oneself.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Just because one (or one hundred or one thousand) conservative(s) says something like that doesn't mean that conservatives as a group think like that. One conservative, speaks for oneself.


One liberal speaks for herself. It works both ways Neb. Thing s posted on this thread are often agreed upon by more than one of us as we have basically the same general beliefs- however, when it comes right down to the nitty gritty, we all speak for ourselves not anyone else.

I once again apologize if I made you feel that I thought you were not small c conservative and that you agreed with she who will not be named. I never have felt you were like her or the couple of others who claim the things they do.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> There's almost always miscommunication when he word "conservative" is used around Nebraska. She regards herself as conservative, in the original sense, and I'm sure she is.But she is not *a Conservative* in the more recent usage. Nebraska is as different from Knit Crazy as she is from me, in fact probably more so. So you speak about Conservatives and some of the absurd, inhumane things they say and do and she reads it as lower-case conservative, applies it to her own case, and is upset.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong, but if so, Multi-Grandma can correct me.
> .........................................................................................................................
> ...


You're right about one thing; if KC said the things she's alleged to have said, then you're right. I am more different from her, than from you. The issue I have, is that conservatives are not all alike. They come in all sizes, shapes, colors and beliefs. I think that the same is probably true of liberals, as well. There are many varying degrees of conservatives. To take a statement made by one conservative, and attributing it to all conservatives is, well... absurd. When a person makes an outrageous statement, that person should be held accountable, not anyone who might have something else in common, with that person.

But on the other hand, I take your comment as a compliment. So, thank you!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> It is my opinion. The Christianity I follow is not the same as many many others follow.
> I am surprised that anything we say should shock you - you spend your whole time trying to shock us and change our core beliefs.
> We are individuals and have our own opinions. I don't intend to argue about my statement .
> I personally did not in any way say that any religion teaches us to hate blacks. However it is a fact that people convince themselves the wrong is right in the name of Religion and it happens a lot..
> ...


What I was trying to say is that because a religious person says something rude, outrageous, racist (or whatever), doesn't mean that it's what the religion stands for. I don't know of any religion that advocates racism. I do however, know of people who belonged to religions, who were racists.

I'm not big on religions. In fact, I've not found one that I like. I believe there's a difference between belief in GOD, and belief in religions. So, I'm not trying to defend religions, I'm just saying, we shouldn't judge religions based upon what individuals say or do. Not all of them are representative.

Many horrible things have been done, by so called Christians. But I'm not aware of any religion that espouses racism. Just saying..


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Well I went to a Catholic Convent and the statements I heard made were made by the nuns and many of those statement definitely advocated hatred towards black people. We were taught that the black slaves in America were definitely sub human and no where near as intelligent as white people. It was the nuns who made the statement "if you gave an Aboriginal pencil and paper and gave a monkey pencil and paper the monkey would produce a better drawing than the Aboriginal". You should have heard what was said about the Tasmanian Aboriginals. The nuns told us that they were the 'most primitive and ignorant people who ever walked the face of the earth'. That is nothing but a dreadful racial slur. Unfortunately remarks such as these were not documented and therefore cannot be traced and produced. Unfortunately some older people, and indeed some younger people, still believe that people with black skins are less intelligent than people with white skin. Remember the 'curse of Cain'? We were taught that the 'curse of Cain' was God turning Cain's skin back because he had murdered his brother and the black man carries that curse to this day. Yes, that was taught from the pulpit of the Catholic church in the 40s and 50s, at least it was in Australia, I cannot speak about what was taught from the pulpit of the Catholic church in other countries but someone here may have similar memories of learning about the 'curse of Cain'. I honestly believe that is why so many people think that a man is inferior because he has more melanin in his skin than white folk.
> 
> These are not outrageous statement that some people may have heard somewhere and are now repeating. These are statements that people actually heard made. These people who recall those memories are not delusional but they do remember. You are not aware of any religion that advocates hatred towards blacks. No, not today but we are talking about things that happened in the past. Some of us on KP are a lot older than you and therefore have memories that were made before you were born. Please document this. Well that is not possible. Remember this was the 40s and 50s, before ipods with cameras, mobile cameras with cameras or portable recording devices. In those days recording devices were large and clumsy and used reel to reel magnetic tape that was about half an inch wide. But it did happen and we do remember. As I said our memories go back to before you were born.


Did the Catholic church espouse racism? Or was it a case of some of the catholics being racist?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Thanks for clearing that up, Purl--and sorry too, Nebraska, if I hurt your feelings. I certainly didn't mean that YOU hold such views.


Thanks, Susan! It's not that my feeling were hurt, but that all people are different. Everyone should be judged upon their own words and their own actions. To suppose that all conservatives think alike, would be the same as to suppose that all liberals think alike.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> neither did I think for a minute you felt that way. If it came across that way, I posted it incorrectly. Iwasn't even thinking of you as a Conservative as you have stated that you won't vote Conservative or Democrat. Once again, I was answering you but not including you. I have re written my post as I wasn't clear on what I was saying.


Thank you, Shirley. I did not take your comments personally. I don't consider myself as belonging to any "religion". I just think that when people open their mouths, they're not always representing their religions. We can't necessarily say that they are.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> When I posted my comments on religious bodies making what can be termed racial slurs I was speaking from my personal recollections and memories. I spoke about the Catholic Church in Australia and what was said some 60 or more years ago. I also did not mean that Knitter from Nebraska held such views. I did point out that some posters are much older than she is and therefore have memories predating her birth. I stand by my statement that these statements were made by the Catholic Church in Australia at that time. I also said that I was not referring to the present day Catholic Church either in Australia or America. I apologise if my statements were taken as an attack on Knitter from Nebraska as it was not meant to be an attack on this poster.


No offense taken, Eve. But I have a question. We're these statements made by Catholics, representative of the beliefs of the church? Or just the individuals?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Just because one (or one hundred or one thousand) conservative(s) says something like that doesn't mean that conservatives as a group think like that. One conservative, speaks for oneself.


Of course you're right, Nebraska--even mainstream American conservatives would probably be appalled at such measures. I tend to view the D & P crowd as typical conservatives, but of course they're the ultra ultras--not your average run-of-the mill GOP folks by any means.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Our first cat was a Burmese. These are wonderful cats, loving and affectionate; they are also beautiful, with sleek sable-colored fur. When one of my uncles came to visit, he asked me several times why I had such an ugly cat. After all, it was almost black. Hard to believe, but his prejudice toward dark-skinned people carried over to cats as well. Oh, well, he was my least-favorite relative, anyway.


I have always been partial to black cats. They're my favorite.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> One liberal speaks for herself. It works both ways Neb. Thing s posted on this thread are often agreed upon by more than one of us as we have basically the same general beliefs- however, when it comes right down to the nitty gritty, we all speak for ourselves not anyone else.
> 
> I once again apologize if I made you feel that I thought you were not small c conservative and that you agreed with she who will not be named. I never have felt you were like her or the couple of others who claim the things they do.


 :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What I was trying to say is that because a religious person says something rude, outrageous, racist (or whatever), doesn't mean that it's what the religion stands for. I don't know of any religion that advocates racism. I do however, know of people who belonged to religions, who were racists.
> 
> I'm not big on religions. In fact, I've not found one that I like.  I believe there's a difference between belief in GOD, and belief in religions. So, I'm not trying to defend religions, I'm just saying, we shouldn't judge religions based upon what individuals say or do. Not all of them are representative. Many horrible things have been done, by so called Christians. But I'm not aware of any religion that espouses racism. Just saying..


------------------------------------------
That surprises me and makes me feel closer to you. I am not much of a Church believer either. I rarely, if ever ask anyone what Church they belong to as to me it doesn't change anything. There are truly Christian people in all of them, sometimes despite what they are told by those in Charge.

There are also in my opinion a lot of hypocrites in all of them. Maybe fewer than I believe - I hope so.

I grew up in a Baptist Church where my Father was considered a Church leader- he was a hypocrite, then the United Church and for a time because of the pastor, the Church of England(Anglican) and now I attend individual Churches that appeal to me. In Calgary I attended a Baptist Church that was held in a Community center. The Mother of the pastor was a close friend of mine who was Catholic and yet she attended all her son's Services. She understood his message, and still kept a strong Catholic faith. I strongly believe in GOD but not necessarily religions. Their track history in humanity leaves much to be desired in my opinion. No one can hurt me very much when they tell me my faith is not true -- I know it is as I know yours is as well.

There are still many things I love about the Church, 
The feeling of belonging, the wonderful music, and for me it was mostly the young peoples' groups which I loved and was very active in. My experience in a lot of them showed me how hypocritical they can be or at least individuals who are pastors and members. Yet there are wonderful people in all the Churches who live as wonderful Christians, in my opinion. Usually they are those who care about others who need their love the most. You can almost always pick them out

I go to Christmas eve Mass where ever I am. I taught at Baptist Church camps in Alberta when I was a young woman, and enjoyed the feeling of happiness and felt attuned with God there. I belonged to CGIT which is a young woman's group that is in Canada and was very much a huge part of my life. I felt I was doing God's work. 
===========================
Well everyone, I have opened up a lot of my life tonight and I know I am not sorry. It is like peeling the skin of the onion, until you get nearer and nearer to the center.

I still have to tell what happened last week to me and post some pictures. Tomorrow I will. Take care everyone and have a good sleep. It is still early here but I am ready for some sleep. Sleep tight everyone and have good dreams.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Here's an update on the babies. Thomas' breathing has gotten better and yesterday they took him off of the oxygen. But then, today they put him back on. He just needs a little bit. He can't nurse or bottle feed when he's on oxygen, so even though he's big and can keep his body temperature stable, he won't be going home until he can eat. Tube feeding for now.

The doctors and nurses say that Kayla is the rockstar of preemies. She's in a crib and keeps her body temp stable. She's on no oxygen and is sucking very well. She gets all of her milk either by nursing or a bottle. They said she might go home next week.

Arya used to cry a lot, but not so much anymore. She has the tiniest little cry, you can hardly hear her. She's doing very well. She's been moved to a crib and holds her body temp. She's taking most of her feedings by nursing or a bottle but gets tired before she can finish. So part of her feeding is put through the tube to her stomach.

Leo is still small. But he's doing very well. He's smaller than when they usually switch to a crib, but he's doing so well, they're thinking of switching him to see if he can hold his temp. Like Arya, he nurses and sucks from a bottle, but tires before he's finished, so he still gets some through the feeding tube.

The criteria for going home is that they can take all of their feedings by mouth, can hold their body temperature and they can do those things without expending more calories than they take in. They also have to take a carseat test. For those of you who don't know what a carseat test is, they strap the baby into their carseat, and monitor them for (I think) 45 minutes. Some baby's hearts stop beating in an upright position, so they monitor to make sure that's not the case. 

Dil's mother is going to take 2 weeks vacation starting next week. I get two weeks off! But I'm sure I won't be able to go 2 weeks without seeing Max.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Here's Thomas and Arya.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

And Kayla and Leo


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

They are little dolls - well-dressed little dolls. Of course GNebs is their fashion police.

Keep postin'.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> They are little dolls - well-dressed little dolls. Of course GNebs is their fashion police.
> 
> Keep postin'.


Lol! Let me tell you, its hard to find preemie clothes. But I did it! Soon, they'll be in newborn size, and I've gotten LOTS of those! I love shopping for baby clothes.

Actually, they were all in the middle of being changed. So some are dressed and some are not.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Did the Catholic church espouse racism? Or was it a case of some of the catholics being racist?


Did the Catholic Church espouse racism? Yes, on so many levels.

The statements to which I referred were made by various individuals but they were all the same. Many of the statements were made by the nuns and the priests. They were not speaking as individuals but as a spokesman for the Catholic Church. As far as espousing racism, well the Catholic Church, as a Church, did label the Jews as 'Christ killers'. At the Second Vatican Council (19621965), the Roman Catholic Church under Pope Paul VI repudiated belief in collective Jewish guilt for the crucifixion of Jesus. That is racism at its finest. It was church doctrine and it labelled all Jews as Christ killers. I remember being taught this and did not agree with it.

There are many, many articles on the net relating to racism within the Catholic Church, both at the individual level and the Catholic Church as a whole. They are easy to find but some may make difficult reading. There are a few you may wish to read.

RACIAL HEALING AT THE PARISH LEVEL
http://www.catholiccommonground.org/racial-healing-parish-level

Catholics and racism: from examination of conscience to examination of culture
http://ncronline.org/news/peace-justice/catholics-and-racism-examination-conscience-examination-culture

Catholic bishops: Racism is an evil in society and the church
http://www.religionnews.com/2015/06/11/us-catholic-bishops-condemn-racism-st-louis-meeting/

Racism in Catholic Church 'driving minorities away'
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/oct/16/race.religion


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Our first cat was a Burmese. These are wonderful cats, loving and affectionate; they are also beautiful, with sleek sable-colored fur. When one of my uncles came to visit, he asked me several times why I had such an ugly cat. After all, it was almost black. Hard to believe, but his prejudice toward dark-skinned people carried over to cats as well. Oh, well, he was my least-favorite relative, anyway.


Question: Did your Burmese cat yowl when he found he was not sitting or sleeping right next to you. Frodo is Burmese and a beautiful cat in both colour and nature but he has to be right next to one of us 24/7. If he is not, he panics and yowls until he finds us. If I go outside to peg the laundry on the clothes line he sits at the door and yowls. It is not just him and him being insecure, my ex sister in law had a Burmese in the 70s, she had four cats. Coco was the same as Frodo, he could not bear to be parted from her. I read that the Burmese is a 'people cat' and have a need to be around humans at all times. We have had him now for 11 years and the standing family sick joke is that if both Kai and I are ever killed they will have to euthanise Frodo because he will drive everyone to distraction if he is unable to find us. I told you it was a sick joke. I have also heard that some people regard black cats as being the familiar of the devil.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Here's an update on the babies. Thomas' breathing has gotten better and yesterday they took him off of the oxygen. But then, today they put him back on. He just needs a little bit. He can't nurse or bottle feed when he's on oxygen, so even though he's big and can keep his body temperature stable, he won't be going home until he can eat. Tube feeding for now.
> 
> The doctors and nurses say that Kayla is the rockstar of preemies. She's in a crib and keeps her body temp stable. She's on no oxygen and is sucking very well. She gets all of her milk either by nursing or a bottle. They said she might go home next week.
> 
> ...


All the babies are doing remarkable well, they are progressing in leaps and bounds. I know you are more than happy and relieved. As for going two weeks without seeing Max, I look on this in a different perspective. Think of Max going two whole weeks without seeing you. I think it may upset him a tad, his routine includes you. But I am sure he will pull through even if he does miss you.

Can you keep in touch with him by phone at least once every day. I do not know about Skype as I do not have it but when my son and his wife went to America they had to leave 2 year old Yi Yi in Australia. They talked to her several times a day on Skype.

I may have told you this before, I cannot remember. Yi Yi had just turned two when they went to America to visit my son's daughter who was living and teaching in America at the time. It was only a short while after Yi Yi came to live with them. Yi Yi is their foster child, they have her on long term foster care. Her mother had been brutally murdered only days after Yi Yi's second birthday and she had been murdered by accomplices of her father. Her mother's mother who was visiting them from China at the time was also brutally bashed and has still not recovered from the ordeal. She was beaten severely about the head with a hammer. The authorities did not know where the father was, whether he was in Australia or overseas. Because of this it would have been too great a risk to take her out of Australia. Six months prior to that when Yi Yi and her mother had been visiting the mother's mother in China her father had her kidnapped and the Australian Government managed to rescue her. They found her near the Chinese and North Korean border and were extremely luck to have found her and been able to reunite her with her mother. Yi Yi is an Australian citizen because she was born in Australia. Because of these difficulties my son and his wife could not take her out of Australia. Yi Yi's father is now in prison in China as the Chinese authorities believe that he arranged for the mother to be murdered. He told the Chinese Authorities things about the murder that the Australian Government had not told them. He has since relinquished all rights and claims to Yi Yi and she now carries my son's surname as well as her Chinese name. Unfortunately my son and his wife cannot adopt her because my son is over 50 years of age and his wife is over 40 years of age, too old to adopt according to authorities. She does not know the full story about her parents because she is only 6 years old and still too young to know and understand all the details. Since her father's arrest and imprisonment my son and his wife have been able to take Yi Yi overseas although they have to undergo lengthy questioning by immigration authorities before they leave the country.

But keep in constant touch with Max when you go on your holiday and that way he will know you are not deserting him. Tell him what you plan to do and perhaps leave little gifts for him, something small that someone can give to him, one every day that you are away. They can tell him that his nanna loves him and left the gifts for him to remember her.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> The only thing that needs to be deleted from this thread is you. Do you see yourself as a masochist or do you have a martyr complex? So far you are the only thing out here that is offensive. Just because you have free run of KP your better judgement, if you posses the trait, should keep you away from liberal threads. Do you want your buddies on D&P to get a visit or don't you care about your so called friends and their peace in the never never land of the 1950's that they have created for themselves. It's up to you. You can be the heroine or the devil,saint or sinner. Take your pick. :XD:


How old are you - five? What a stupid and childish post; you forgot to say "Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, na."

Show me where this thread is noted to be a "liberal thread" and that I or anyone else cannot participate. The OP of this thread was a regular poster on D&P (I invited her personally) and she described that thread to me as the place she felt most welcomed and the best fit for her among those who regularly post on that thread. So get over yourself, learn something and especially learn some manners.

I know you regularly insult those on D & P both by wallpapering that thread and by posting about them on any thread you choose to do so. I've also been on the receiving end of your vile PMs written under the authorship of several of your various user names.

My recollection is you started the Progressive Womens Forum on KP which failed at least twice because of your inability to lead and your constant fighting with, wait for it - other Liberals! You've earned yourself the reputation of bullying everyone on KP both publicly and by PM and still continue to attack and insult anyone who doesn't agree with you and your opinions and Liberal politics exactly as you have done in your post above.

My friends are just that - you are a bully and only that.

Oh, the facts are you and your Liberal gang posts on D & P any time you wish without cause so get over yourself, your threats and stupidity and act like an adult.

btw; Yesterday I made a few posts on this thread stating some of the facts regarding the pool party in Texas as it was being called a racist event by several posters (it wasn't). If you found the facts offensive, take it up with the event planner and her mother. Tatiana has since 'lawyered up' because she is no doubt afraid of civil charges being brought against her and being held responsible for what she did by inviting the public to a private pool so she could sell tickets for another party (for profit). Tatiana planned another party that intends and degrades women. Tatiana used the phrases "Dime Piece" and "Make it Clap" on her invitations - *that's what is offensive,* not me.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Did the Catholic Church espouse racism? Yes, on so many levels.
> 
> The statements to which I referred were made by various individuals but they were all the same. Many of the statements were made by the nuns and the priests. They were not speaking as individuals but as a spokesman for the Catholic Church. As far as espousing racism, well the Catholic Church, as a Church, did label the Jews as 'Christ killers'. At the Second Vatican Council (19621965), the Roman Catholic Church under Pope Paul VI repudiated belief in collective Jewish guilt for the crucifixion of Jesus. That is racism at its finest. It was church doctrine and it labelled all Jews as Christ killers. I remember being taught this and did not agree with it.
> 
> ...


This is so foreign to me. Is it any wonder why so many are racists? I'd always believed that racism was something that was merely passed down by ignorant parents, from one generation to the next. I imagine it would be very difficult to live a life, in which church played such a large role, to believe that the church is infallible, to follow the teachings of that church, and then one day, to be told, "Oops, we were wrong". I also cannot imagine men of GOD, teaching hatred of mankind, regardless of color. I'm not going to say anymore of what I think about this, because it's sure to cause another sh#tstorm.

I grew up in South Dakota. There weren't very many blacks in South Dakota at that time. Whenever anyone spoke of racism, it was in sympathy for the blacks. Civil rights were a no brainer. I was raised in the lutheran church. We had visiting pastors who were black. I never heard a whisper of racism. We had black pastors to our home for dinner. I cannot even imagine a church that espouses racism, nor can I imagine being a part of one. This saddens me. Is it any wonder, why people have a hard time letting go of their racism?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> All the babies are doing remarkable well, they are progressing in leaps and bounds. I know you are more than happy and relieved. As for going two weeks without seeing Max, I look on this in a different perspective. Think of Max going two whole weeks without seeing you. I think it may upset him a tad, his routine includes you. But I am sure he will pull through even if he does miss you.
> 
> Can you keep in touch with him by phone at least once every day. I do not know about Skype as I do not have it but when my son and his wife went to America they had to leave 2 year old Yi Yi in Australia. They talked to her several times a day on Skype.
> 
> ...


I definitely will not be going two weeks without seeing Max. I may sleep a little later in the mornings, but I won't stay away.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> How old are you - five? What a stupid and childish post; you forgot to say "Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, na."
> 
> Show me where this thread is noted to be a "liberal thread" and that I or anyone else cannot participate. The OP of this thread was a regular poster on D&P (I invited her personally) and she described that thread to me as the place she felt most welcomed and the best fit for her among those who regularly post on that thread. So get over yourself, learn something and especially learn some manners.
> 
> ...


Liberals seem to bring out the worst in you. Why do you keep coming back?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Here's an update on the babies. Thomas' breathing has gotten better and yesterday they took him off of the oxygen. But then, today they put him back on. He just needs a little bit. He can't nurse or bottle feed when he's on oxygen, so even though he's big and can keep his body temperature stable, he won't be going home until he can eat. Tube feeding for now.
> 
> The doctors and nurses say that Kayla is the rockstar of preemies. She's in a crib and keeps her body temp stable. She's on no oxygen and is sucking very well. She gets all of her milk either by nursing or a bottle. They said she might go home next week.
> 
> ...


Oh boy, rest up Nebraska! This is the time to catch up on your sleep and gird your loins for the next few months. It's wonderful that DIL has you and her mom to help with the babes. It still amazes me to think of bringing FOUR newborns home from the hospital. Wow, the family is really going to be hopping these next few years.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Liberals seem to bring out the worst in you. Why do you keep coming back?


Leave me alone KFN. You, who have attacked and insulted me repeatedly, lied about me and have told me repeatedly to go away and how evil I am and now say this to me? You might want to check your own tactics and hypocrisy.

You've pledged to ignore me - you should honor your word.

I don't instigate anything with the Liberals, I stand up to them when they make personal attacks and they do most of the time. Nothing I posted was personal to a KP poster, it was about the gone-wrong pool party in Texas. The Libs responded to my posts by personally insulting me. That's childish, stupid and typical. I may respond to their attacks but not one of them control me and my feelings or opinions.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Leave me alone KFN. You, who have attacked and insulted me repeatedly, lied about me and have told me repeatedly to go away and how evil I am and now say this to me? You might want to check your own tactics and hypocrisy.
> 
> You've pledged to ignore me - you should honor your word.
> 
> I don't instigate anything with the Liberals, I stand up to them and may respond to them but not one of them control me and my feelings or opinions.


"Come, Ahabs compliments to ye; come and see if ye can swerve me. Swerve me? ye cannot swerve me, else ye swerve yourselves! man has ye there. Swerve me? The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. "


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> This is so foreign to me. Is it any wonder why so many are racists? I'd always believed that racism was something that was merely passed down by ignorant parents, from one generation to the next. I imagine it would be very difficult to live a life, in which church played such a large role, to believe that the church is infallible, to follow the teachings of that church, and then one day, to be told, "Oops, we were wrong". I also cannot imagine men of GOD, teaching hatred of mankind, regardless of color. I'm not going to say anymore of what I think about this, because it's sure to cause another sh#tstorm.
> 
> I grew up in South Dakota. There weren't very many blacks in South Dakota at that time. Whenever anyone spoke of racism, it was in sympathy for the blacks. Civil rights were a no brainer. I was raised in the lutheran church. We had visiting pastors who were black. I never heard a whisper of racism. We had black pastors to our home for dinner. I cannot even imagine a church that espouses racism, nor can I imagine being a part of one. This saddens me. Is it any wonder, why people have a hard time letting go of their racism?


The world is a sad place indeed. You say you cannot imagine men of GOD, teaching hatred of mankind, regardless of color, well the same could be said about the pederest priests and the bishops who condoned their activities by moving the guilty priests from parish to parish. But as we are now seeing in the evidence being presented at the Royal Commission into sexual abuse of children within the Catholic Church these priests were far from isolated cases. So many lives ruined because of the action of these so called 'men of God'. If paedophilia was there by logic you must also expect other vices. Just because a man is clothed in the garb of a holy man or priest or bishop does not mean that he does not have feet of clay. One slight difference between racism and paedophillia is that paedophillia and all its inherent horrors was not part of the Catholic doctrine but racism was condoned by Catholic doctrine.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Liberals seem to bring out the worst in you. Why do you keep coming back?


Because she is a bully and likes to stir people. I think she believes she is a superior being by doing so. I honestly think that she takes childish delight in putting others down. Maybe she had a very sad, lonely and abusive childhood when she herself was subjected to verbal, physical and emotional abuse and she now believes that is the way to go. We really should pity her because methinks she lives a sad and lonely life with no real personal friends. Maybe she does not have adorable grandchildren to love and who love her. In that respect you are streets ahead of her, you know and understand the love of your grandchildren, you enjoy their company and they enjoy yours. You are blessed in this regard. She can say the most horrid things about other posters but if anyone says anything about her she becomes the tattle tale and runs and wants them exterminated. I think she really is a good case for a shrink.

I must add a footnote here. I read what she posted after I started to post. Her remarks


> Leave me alone KFN. You, who have attacked and insulted me repeatedly, lied about me and have told me repeatedly to go away and how evil I am and now say this to me? You might want to check your own tactics and hypocrisy.


 are not only over the top, they are downright disgusting. We may have different points of view on many topics but one thing I will say and that is that I have not seen you attacking or insulting people, and definitely not repeatedly. Nor have I seen you lie about people nor say how evil anyone is. You are not a hypocrite and whilst some we may disagree with some of the things you say you definitely do not tell lies about people. So chin up and do not let this poster upset you, especially now at this happy time in your life. As I said I honestly believe she is jealous of you and your new arrivals. Try to ignore her. She has torn Shirley to shreds and now she is turning her venom on you. I honestly think she should stick to posting on her favourite channel D & P. They love her over there and cannot get enough of her posts. She is their leader and they hang on her every word. She is their queen bee. No, I have not checked what she is posting over there and I do not care to do so. Here she is just an annoying wasp and if you know anything about wasps I would classify her as a European Wasp which is far more deadly that the paper wasp that normally visits my garden.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts
Give us a break and fall silent. You are disturbing the Peace here.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Because she is a bully and likes to stir people. I think she believes she is a superior being by doing so. I honestly think that she takes childish delight in putting others down. Maybe she had a very sad, lonely and abusive childhood when she herself was subjected to verbal, physical and emotional abuse and she now believes that is the way to go. We really should pity her because methinks she lives a sad and lonely life with no real personal friends. Maybe she does not have adorable grandchildren to love and who love her. In that respect you are streets ahead of her, you know and understand the love of your grandchildren, you enjoy their company and they enjoy yours. You are blessed in this regard. She can say the most horrid things about other posters but if anyone says anything about her she becomes the tattle tale and runs and wants them exterminated. I think she really is a good case for a shrink.


EveMCooke
let's face it, she is beyond help. When you have been nasty for over a half century, the nastiness is grooved into you and she cannot be modified. Actually I think that we are her
outlet for frustration. She is not in charge at Home and that gripes the heck out of her.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> EveMCooke
> let's face it, she is beyond help. When you have been nasty for over a half century, the nastiness is grooved into you and she cannot be modified. Actually I think that we are her
> outlet for frustration. She is not in charge at Home and that gripes the heck out of her.


I think that her latest rant against Nebs is really going too far. She has torn into Shirley and now she has another target in her sights. I honestly think she is jealous of Nebs because of the new arrivals. So sad that she does not have any such good news to post. Methinks she must have suffered as a child, she must have been on the receiving end of physical, emotional and psychological abuse. Now she is just a sad, lonely and pathetic old lady.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Leave me alone KFN. You, who have attacked and insulted me repeatedly, lied about me and have told me repeatedly to go away and how evil I am and now say this to me? You might want to check your own tactics and hypocrisy.
> 
> You've pledged to ignore me - you should honor your word.
> 
> I don't instigate anything with the Liberals, I stand up to them when they make personal attacks and they do most of the time. Nothing I posted was personal to a KP poster, it was about the gone-wrong pool party in Texas. The Libs responded to my posts by personally insulting me. That's childish, stupid and typical. I may respond to their attacks but not one of them control me and my feelings or opinions.


knitpresentgifts
and you believe the stuff you post? It is childish, stupid and typical of you.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I think that her latest rant against Nebs is really going too far. She has torn into Shirley and now she has another target in her sights. I honestly think she is jealous of Nebs because of the new arrivals. So sad that she does not have any such good news to post. Methinks she must have suffered as a child, she must have been on the receiving end of physical, emotional and psychological abuse. Now she is just a sad, lonely and pathetic old lady.


EveMCooke
you are on target, she is sad, lonely and a very pathetic old
Gal.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Because she is a bully and likes to stir people. I think she believes she is a superior being by doing so. I honestly think that she takes childish delight in putting others down. Maybe she had a very sad, lonely and abusive childhood when she herself was subjected to verbal, physical and emotional abuse and she now believes that is the way to go. We really should pity her because methinks she lives a sad and lonely life with no real personal friends. Maybe she does not have adorable grandchildren to love and who love her. In that respect you are streets ahead of her, you know and understand the love of your grandchildren, you enjoy their company and they enjoy yours. You are blessed in this regard. She can say the most horrid things about other posters but if anyone says anything about her she becomes the tattle tale and runs and wants them exterminated. I think she really is a good case for a shrink.


Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha. And tee hee hee too! You are so willing to insult and assess me as you have done multiple times and here you go again! Thankfully you are so far off base, I can find your comments absolutely stupid and hilarious.

I didn't insult nor bully nor stir anyone nor was it my intention to do so when I posted some FACTS of the Texas pool party. It was YOU who immediately labeled people and the event as racist.

I didn't insult you or anyone with my post but you wasted no time to insult me when I disagreed with your description of the facts. Now, here you are again attempted to bully and degrade me. Do you understand how pitiful, miserable and ridiculous you portray yourself? Normally such actions come from envy or jealously or result in a self-fulling prophesy. You might consider why you act as you do.

I've said again and again, * I am blessed!* Not ONE, not ONE, of your insults describe me, my life and my very existence.

I'm am thankful for my blessings and take this opportunity to express my gratitude again for my life and to thank _God_, my Heavenly Father and Savior, and my family and those good people in my life.

I refuse to follow your lead and insult and diss you and your life. You're doing so of me (not the first and probably not the last time) is disturbing of YOU but not my concern.

However, I will say I adore you claiming I'm a tattletale and want others exterminated WHEN (not IF) I'm insulted personally by you or another Lib. I wonder how you know that also - I'll chock it up to another of your 'stories.'

Because you see, I've publicly stated when I report a post. I don't tattletale or play the stupid games of the Libs. Don't you know the "sticks and stones" rhyme?

Since I don't care enough to read the majority of the Libs' words and intentionally avoid the majority of their posts, why the heck would I care in what you have to say about me or give your words a second thought IF i did read them? I'd first need to respect the author before the words were meaningful to me.

Thanks for the laughter! :XD:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> are not only over the top, they are downright disgusting. We may have different points of view on many topics but one thing I will say and that is that I have not seen you attacking or insulting people, and definitely not repeatedly. Nor have I seen you lie about people nor say how evil anyone is. You are not a hypocrite and whilst some we may disagree with some of the things you say you definitely do not tell lies about people. So chin up and do not let this poster upset you, especially now at this happy time in your life. As I said I honestly believe she is jealous of you and your new arrivals. Try to ignore her. She has torn Shirley to shreds and now she is turning her venom on you. I honestly think she should stick to posting on her favourite channel D & P. They love her over there and cannot get enough of her posts. She is their leader and they hang on her every word. She is their queen bee. No, I have not checked what she is posting over there and I do not care to do so. Here she is just an annoying wasp and if you know anything about wasps I would classify her as a European Wasp which is far more deadly that the paper wasp that normally visits my garden.


Eve - go and reread the posts of the people you speak about without knowing, once again, the facts.

I have no jealousy or desires you suggest. You are barking up the wrong tree and need to stop insulting me.

Shirley has torn me and many to shreds again and again and again. She has no one but herself to blame for HER own words as do we all.

KFN's words to me and mine to her are all archived as well. I speak the truth and you need to as well.

As you no doubt are aware, the posts are archived and anyone can review the posts.

Because you continue to lie about me and insult me and others, I'll continue to call you out and expose you.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I think that her latest rant against Nebs is really going too far. She has torn into Shirley and now she has another target in her sights. I honestly think she is jealous of Nebs because of the new arrivals. So sad that she does not have any such good news to post. Methinks she must have suffered as a child, she must have been on the receiving end of physical, emotional and psychological abuse. Now she is just a sad, lonely and pathetic old lady.


Are you done now? BTW you probably have 25+ years on me, so who are you really insulting?


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I think that her latest rant against Nebs is really going too far. She has torn into Shirley and now she has another target in her sights. I honestly think she is jealous of Nebs because of the new arrivals. So sad that she does not have any such good news to post. Methinks she must have suffered as a child, she must have been on the receiving end of physical, emotional and psychological abuse. Now she is just a sad, lonely and pathetic old lady.


Rant? Saying to KFN to leave me alone is a rant? Stating that she told me to go away and leave or that I'm an evil person is a rant from me? How about you look at the actual words before you insert your foot and attack me over something you obviously know nothing about.

Then move on to Designer. Review the insults and words she has written to me. You'd be best to not interfere or stir up trouble as you are attempting to do.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I've been made aware that the cat is out of the bag, so I will share. Yesterday, my son and dil were interviewed about the quads. It's been making quite a splash locally, and apparently the story has splahed on the international level.

http://m.ketv.com/news/omaha-couple-welcomes-quadruplets/33533038?utm_campaign=KETV%20NewsWatch%207&utm_medium=GOOGLE_PLUS_PAGE&utm_source=Social
http://www.livewellnebraska.com/health/omaha-couple-welcomes-first-set-of-quadruplets-in-nebraska/article_ce3d94c8-7ade-562b-a5a7-2258eb3a70a5.html?mode=jqm
http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/Awwww-Cute-Quadruplets-Born-At-Methodist-Womens-Hospital-307040701.html?device=tablet&c=y
http://www.scrippsmedia.com/kmtv/news/Omaha-couple-welcomes-quadruplets-with-movie-inspired-names-307027461.html?lc=Smart


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> knitpresentgifts
> Give us a break and fall silent. You are disturbing the Peace here.


Give the D & P thread a break, Huck, and be silent and stop posting there as you are presently doing. You are disturbing the peace there as is your intent.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I've been made aware that the cat is out of the bag, so I will share. Yesterday, my son and dil were interviewed about the quads. It's been making quite a splash locally, and apparently the story has splahed on the international level.
> 
> http://m.ketv.com/news/omaha-couple-welcomes-quadruplets/33533038?utm_campaign=KETV%20NewsWatch%207&utm_medium=GOOGLE_PLUS_PAGE&utm_source=Social
> http://www.livewellnebraska.com/health/omaha-couple-welcomes-first-set-of-quadruplets-in-nebraska/article_ce3d94c8-7ade-562b-a5a7-2258eb3a70a5.html?mode=jqm
> ...


Wonderful story. No wonder it made the news! So, so happy for your entire family.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha. And tee hee hee too! You are so willing to insult and assess me as you have done multiple times and here you go again! Thankfully you are so far off base, I can find your comments absolutely stupid and hilarious.
> 
> I didn't insult nor bully nor stir anyone nor was it my intention to do so when I posted some FACTS of the Texas pool party. It was YOU who immediately labeled people and the event as racist.
> 
> ...


Perhaps, it's not what you say, but the way that you say it. The time for you to engage in discussion here, has ended. There are so many angry and bitter feelings already in existance, that it makes having a rational discussion impossible. As I see it, the only reason you would post here, is to stir the pot and make people more angry. Please try to find someone with whom you can engage in conversation. It doesn't work here. If you're just looking for somewhere to vent your anger and frustration, please look elsewhere. You're a distraction, here.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Wonderful story. No wonder it made the news! So, so happy for your entire family.


Thanks, Green!


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I've been made aware that the cat is out of the bag, so I will share. Yesterday, my son and dil were interviewed about the quads. It's been making quite a splash locally, and apparently the story has splahed on the international level.
> 
> http://m.ketv.com/news/omaha-couple-welcomes-quadruplets/33533038?utm_campaign=KETV%20NewsWatch%207&utm_medium=GOOGLE_PLUS_PAGE&utm_source=Social
> http://www.livewellnebraska.com/health/omaha-couple-welcomes-first-set-of-quadruplets-in-nebraska/article_ce3d94c8-7ade-562b-a5a7-2258eb3a70a5.html?mode=jqm
> ...


Your family is famous, you are all stars. :thumbup:


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> Our first cat was a Burmese. These are wonderful cats, loving and affectionate; they are also beautiful, with sleek sable-colored fur. When one of my uncles came to visit, he asked me several times why I had such an ugly cat. After all, it was almost black. Hard to believe, but his prejudice toward dark-skinned people carried over to cats as well. Oh, well, he was my least-favorite relative, anyway.


Relatives are the people we are connected to by accident of birth. When we have relatives we can like and even love, we are fortunate, blessed, really.

Too many of us have relatives we would never associate with except for the family connection and the sensitivities of some of the people we really care about. My husband's brother has a son I consider mean spirited, covetous and unpleasant. DH loves his brother. Brother loves his (IMHO) flawed offspring. Fortunately they live a four hour drive from us so we rarely have to be in their company.

Friends are the people we choose to like and love.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Your family is famous, you are all stars. :thumbup:


It's not exactly what they had in mind. The public relations person at the hospital, made it sound like it was going to be one local channel, doing the story. They wanted to be able to publicly give her doctor credit for all of them making it through. They also wanted the fertility specialist who helped them get pregnant, to know that all of the babies are healthy and perfect! She tried to convince them to abort some of the babies. She yelled at them and told them that the babies would all be defective. She put them through a horrible ordeal and caused them many hours of grief.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Relatives are the people we are connected to by accident of birth. When we have relatives we can like and even love, we are fortunate, blessed, really.
> 
> Too many of us have relatives we would never associate with except for the family connection and the sensitivities of some of the people we really care about. My husband's brother has a son I consider mean spirited, covetous and unpleasant. DH loves his brother. Brother loves his (IMHO) flawed offspring. Fortunately they live a four hour drive from us so we rarely have to be in their company.
> 
> Friends are the people we choose to like and love.


 :thumbup:


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> You're right about one thing; if KC said the things she's alleged to have said, then you're right. I am more different from her, than from you. The issue I have, is that conservatives are not all alike. They come in all sizes, shapes, colors and beliefs. I think that the same is probably true of liberals, as well. There are many varying degrees of conservatives. To take a statement made by one conservative, and attributing it to all conservatives is, well... absurd. When a person makes an outrageous statement, that person should be held accountable, not anyone who might have something else in common, with that person.
> 
> But on the other hand, I take your comment as a compliment. So, thank you!


It is a similar situation as that faced by those of us who are Jewish. We come in all shapes and sizes, all levels of observance and devotion, all degrees of morality and ethics, a whole gamut of political beliefs. But if one (eg. Bibi Netanyahu) says something controversial, there are those who attribute his purview to all his coreligionists. Bernie Madoff's criminality probably slanted some people's attitudes toward all Jewish financial advisers.

This is even more so for African Americans and other people who have been marginalized and are still fighting for recognition as fellow humans who deserve to be fully integrated into society as a whole. Sure there are Black criminals and Black drug dealers. But they are as much an enemy to the overwhelming majority of Black people who are trying to live peaceful moral lives. Young Black men are too often the victims of negative profiling, and too often with tragic results.

My parents remember signs on businesses in New York City saying "Irish need not apply (for jobs)", and I remember the derogatory names used against us Jews, our Italian neighbors, and our Black school mates. Real grown ups judge people as individuals based on their personal experience with those individuals. This doesn't mean you do something really stupid like saunter down a dimly lit street in a neighborhood known for crime in the middle of the night playing on your cell phone.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> And I don't know if it is relevant to the inhuman prejudices against our fellow humans who happen to be of a darker skin color, but I have come across people who refuse to buy brown eggs and claim white eggs are "better".
> 
> There are people who have been indoctrinated all their lives to be racist, whether the racism is against the indigenous people of lands their ancestor invaded and stole from the original settlers or against people who are the descendents of those who were sold into slavery, just as there are people who have been indoctrinated all their lives to be antisemitic. Hateful prejudices have been instilled in them to the degree that they cannot reconcile themselves to the fact that they are bigots and just plain *wrong*.


Someone sent me a link to a guy who was talking about a blog on Google. Click on the link to the blog and it takes you to the White House. I can't write out thename of the blog. I don't use certain words.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I have always been partial to black cats. They're my favorite.


Yes, they are always tastefully dressed and look sophisticated.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Perhaps, it's not what you say, but the way that you say it. *The time for you to engage in discussion here, has ended.* There are so many angry and bitter feelings already in existance, that it makes having a rational discussion impossible. As I see it, the only reason you would post here, is to stir the pot and make people more angry. Please try to find someone with whom you can engage in conversation. It doesn't work here. If you're just looking for somewhere to vent your anger and frustration, please look elsewhere. You're a distraction, here.


The time for me to engage here has ended? I normally don't respond to you, do not insult you and frankly don't ever refer to you. I ask you to learn to treat me with the same courtesy. You have no authority to control anyone yet are attempting to once again control me and my actions/words.

Although I owe you NO explanation, the REASON I posted here recently, (I have not posted in awhile) is to outline some of the facts of the Texas pool party incident and counter some inaccurate statements others posted. Immediately the 'regulars' on this thread personally insulted the messenger (me) instead of staying on topic.

As I see it, you won't accept or enter into a conversation unless you are able to control the conversation. I remember when I used to read your posts, you regularly battling the Libs but you don't want anyone to challenge you and your beliefs.

I've not had problems getting along with anyone on KP. Only the Libs here and on other threads (and you) intentionally insult, berate, lie about and attempt to bully KP users. I think that is sick.

Recently, I was shown how you even suggested I was another new KP poster (gork15) and you, once again, told 'me' in a 'subliminal way' to go away. Then when you learned you were wrong, stated you were surprised 'I' didn't take the bait, and I was not gork15 you never apologized, that I'm aware, to either gork15 or me. So it seems it is you who cannot engage in a civil discussion or get along with others.

Also I don't have any anger or frustrations and no appreciation for your cutting words.

I engage with many folks on KP, enjoy the learning, creativity discussions and have fun. Perhaps you should give it a try!


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I've been made aware that the cat is out of the bag, so I will share. Yesterday, my son and dil were interviewed about the quads. It's been making quite a splash locally, and apparently the story has splahed on the international level.
> 
> http://m.ketv.com/news/omaha-couple-welcomes-quadruplets/33533038?utm_campaign=KETV%20NewsWatch%207&utm_medium=GOOGLE_PLUS_PAGE&utm_source=Social
> http://www.livewellnebraska.com/health/omaha-couple-welcomes-first-set-of-quadruplets-in-nebraska/article_ce3d94c8-7ade-562b-a5a7-2258eb3a70a5.html?mode=jqm
> ...


Thank you for sharing the links. Are any companies giving the family any "perks"? Or are multiples so common nowadays that they no longer do so? When our cousin's family's quads were born about 60 years ago and my aunt's neighbor had quints a few years earlier, multiples were so rare that Cascade Laundry provided a year of diaper service, Carnation sent cases of evaporated milk for formula, and a local bakery in Brooklyn gave them birthday cakes for five years.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Give the D & P thread a break, Huck, and be silent and stop posting there as you are presently doing. You are disturbing the peace there as is your intent.


But it is okay for you to crawl out of your hole and come here to disturb the peace? Hypocrite!


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Leave me alone KFN. You, who have attacked and insulted me repeatedly, lied about me and have told me repeatedly to go away and how evil I am and now say this to me? You might want to check your own tactics and hypocrisy.
> 
> You've pledged to ignore me - you should honor your word.
> 
> I don't instigate anything with the Liberals, I stand up to them when they make personal attacks and they do most of the time. Nothing I posted was personal to a KP poster, it was about the gone-wrong pool party in Texas. The Libs responded to my posts by personally insulting me. That's childish, stupid and typical. I may respond to their attacks but not one of them control me and my feelings or opinions.


Pledges to act one way or another abound here, and don't seem to mean much. I'm sure you've noticed this. Why bother to even mention the to and fro? Also, like many another person, I wonder why you come here. Since I don't play the wallpapering game, I think I'm uniquely qualified to ask, are you truly in need of rude treatment? Maybe you should knit more gifts to present to folks you like giving things to.


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## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

susanmos2000 said:


> "Come, Ahabs compliments to ye; come and see if ye can swerve me. Swerve me? ye cannot swerve me, else ye swerve yourselves! man has ye there. Swerve me? The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. "


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Pledges to act one way or another abound here, and don't seem to mean much. I'm sure you've noticed this. Why bother to even mention the to and fro? Also, like many another person, I wonder why you come here. Since I don't play the wallpapering game, I think I'm uniquely qualified to ask, are you truly in need of rude treatment? Maybe you should knit more gifts to present to folks you like giving things to.


 :thumbup:


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I've been made aware that the cat is out of the bag, so I will share. Yesterday, my son and dil were interviewed about the quads. It's been making quite a splash locally, and apparently the story has splahed on the international level.
> 
> http://m.ketv.com/news/omaha-couple-welcomes-quadruplets/33533038?utm_campaign=KETV%20NewsWatch%207&utm_medium=GOOGLE_PLUS_PAGE&utm_source=Social
> http://www.livewellnebraska.com/health/omaha-couple-welcomes-first-set-of-quadruplets-in-nebraska/article_ce3d94c8-7ade-562b-a5a7-2258eb3a70a5.html?mode=jqm
> ...


Wow! I'm grinning from ear to ear...you and your family are famous!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It's not exactly what they had in mind. The public relations person at the hospital, made it sound like it was going to be one local channel, doing the story. They wanted to be able to publicly give her doctor credit for all of them making it through. They also wanted the fertility specialist who helped them get pregnant, to know that all of the babies are healthy and perfect! She tried to convince them to abort some of the babies. She yelled at them and told them that the babies would all be defective. She put them through a horrible ordeal and caused them many hours of grief.


I kind of wondered if what they call "selective abortion" had been advised but didn't want to pry (I was pretty sure your DIL wouldn't go along with it).


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Yes, they are always tastefully dressed and look sophisticated.


Best of all they stay clean (or at least look like they are)! We have a white cat who's very sweet, but he isn't much on washing and always looks a little grubby.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> It is a similar situation as that faced by those of us who are Jewish. We come in all shapes and sizes, all levels of observance and devotion, all degrees of morality and ethics, a whole gamut of political beliefs. But if one (eg. Bibi Netanyahu) says something controversial, there are those who attribute his purview to all his coreligionists. Bernie Madoff's criminality probably slanted some people's attitudes toward all Jewish financial advisers.
> 
> This is even more so for African Americans and other people who have been marginalized and are still fighting for recognition as fellow humans who deserve to be fully integrated into society as a whole. Sure there are Black criminals and Black drug dealers. But they are as much an enemy to the overwhelming majority of Black people who are trying to live peaceful moral lives. Young Black men are too often the victims of negative profiling, and too often with tragic results.
> 
> My parents remember signs on businesses in New York City saying "Irish need not apply (for jobs)", and I remember the derogatory names used against us Jews, our Italian neighbors, and our Black school mates. Real grown ups judge people as individuals based on their personal experience with those individuals. This doesn't mean you do something really stupid like saunter down a dimly lit street in a neighborhood known for crime in the middle of the night playing on your cell phone.


I'm glad that I was born when and where I was.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Yes, they are always tastefully dressed and look sophisticated.


Oh! I agree!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> The time for me to engage here has ended? I normally don't respond to you, do not insult you and frankly don't ever refer to you. I ask you to learn to treat me with the same courtesy. You have no authority to control anyone yet are attempting to once again control me and my actions/words.
> 
> Although I owe you NO explanation, the REASON I posted here recently, (I have not posted in awhile) is to outline some of the facts of the Texas pool party incident and counter some inaccurate statements others posted. Immediately the 'regulars' on this thread personally insulted the messenger (me) instead of staying on topic.
> 
> ...


First of all, I said, "engage in discussion". I don't think that anyone would disagree with me, that you don't " engage in discussion". According to you, you come here to correct others. I don't think it's appreciated by anyone.

Second of all, you claimed that you don't respond to me. Not ONCE, have I made a comment to you, and had you NOT respond! You can't help yourself! You say you don't refer to me and yet, you admit that one of your friends was keeping tabs on what I say, and reported back to you. If you didn't care, why would they report my comments to you. I didn't apologize for thinking that just maybe, you were gork15, because I'm not sorry! When you've developed a reputation, you can't blame others for making a mistake.

Your comment about me not wanting anyone to challenge by beliefs, is ridiculous. I get challenged on nearly everything I say. I don't think we can learn anything new, if we only talk to people who agree with us. I also believe in having reciprocal discussion, not just dismissing others or insulting them. If you think I'm insulting you, then it's a very good thing that I'm practicing self restraint! You may be the belle of the ball on D&P, but I don't think it extends much further. It wasn't too long ago that you made a nasty comment on a thread that had to do with DonnieK. Several came forward to comment on your nastiness. You might have some people fooled, but certainly not everyone.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Thank you for sharing the links. Are any companies giving the family any "perks"? Or are multiples so common nowadays that they no longer do so? When our cousin's family's quads were born about 60 years ago and my aunt's neighbor had quints a few years earlier, multiples were so rare that Cascade Laundry provided a year of diaper service, Carnation sent cases of evaporated milk for formula, and a local bakery in Brooklyn gave them birthday cakes for five years.


They've not been offered any perks, nor have they sought them.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MaidInBedlam said:


> Pledges to act one way or another abound here, and don't seem to mean much. I'm sure you've noticed this. Why bother to even mention the to and fro? Also, like many another person, I wonder why you come here. Since I don't play the wallpapering game, I think I'm uniquely qualified to ask, are you truly in need of rude treatment? Maybe you should knit more gifts to present to folks you like giving things to.


I have never pledged to ignore her. I've only said that I TRY to ignore her. Sometimes, I fail.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Wow! I'm grinning from ear to ear...you and your family are famous!


My family maybe, but not me. I prefer to remain in the background. :lol:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I kind of wondered if what they call "selective abortion" had been advised but didn't want to pry (I was pretty sure your DIL wouldn't go along with it).


On, yes! She (the fertility specialist) was awful! She made them cry. She told them that the babies would die or all be severely disabled. She said they'd all have brain bleeds and end up with Cerebral Palsy. She yelled at them. She went on and on for nearly an hour. She asked them what perinatologist they were going to go to and when they told her she said, "Oh no! He's a catholic! At least go to one who will talk some sense into you.". Neither of them could even consider killing any of their children. They agonized over her words for months, always afraid that something awful would happen. But she was wrong. GOD has blessed us with four beautiful babies, and should anything come up in the future, we'll deal with it.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> On, yes! She (the fertility specialist) was awful! She made them cry. She told them that the babies would die or all be severely disabled. She said they'd all have brain bleeds and end up with Cerebral Palsy. She yelled at them. She went on and on for nearly an hour. She asked them what perinatologist they were going to go to and when they told her she said, "Oh no! He's a catholic! At least go to one who will talk some sense into you.". Neither of them could even consider killing any of their children. They agonized over her words for months, always afraid that something awful would happen. But she was wrong. GOD has blessed us with four beautiful babies, and should anything come up in the future, we'll deal with it.


That fertility "specialist" was skirting the edge of malpractice. It is one thing to present all the options and explain some possible consequences, then let the patient make an informed decision. It is another thing to try to bully a patient into acting in accordance with the medical practitioner's beliefs. It is horrible to try to frighten and intimidate the patient with scare tactics.

I am so totally happy your lovely children were granted the gift of parenthood and that the babies are so healthy and adorable. Sure the first couple of years will be frenetic, but once they can feed themselves and start potty practice, all of a sudden the world will slow to a lovely orbit and I hope the rest of long, fulfilling lives will be wonderful.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

DGreen said:


> None of that excuses police brutality. Police should DEFUSE situations instead of escalating them. It really doesn't matter who did what before the police intervened - they didn't handle the situation intelligently, which they are supposed to do. They are racists. And so is anyone who denies the reality of police brutality toward people of color.


It certainly does matter what happened before the police intervened, as that is the reason they were called in the first place. In order for the police to defuse the situation they have to know the FACTS. It's quite obvious that you, with your "open liberal mind", don't let the facts get in the way of your prejudices.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

And another country is heard from. Isn't it interesting that when a person whose sensibilities lean toward liberalism visits FFDP it is an "invasion", it is "trolling" and it is disparaged in strong and insulting terms. 

But when the denim clad and pearl bedecked come to a topic that is a tete a tete among the liberal minded and they make mocking, disparaging, denigrating, negative remarks they see nothing wrong with that. Are we being too polite, too civilized, to treat them the way they treat us? 

I vote to continue to walk the high road. That is what separates the classy from the crass.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> It certainly does matter what happened before the police intervened, as that is the reason they were called in the first place. In order for the police to defuse the situation they have to know the FACTS. It's quite obvious that you, with your "open liberal mind", don't let the facts get in the way of your prejudices.


The point of contention is not why the police were called, which is immaterial. The point is what the police did. When law enforcement officers respond in the manner that Casebolt responded, there is a problem. Even his fellow officers recognized he was out of control. There was no threat that conceivably justified pulling his gun - though I have certainly seen some right-biased sites using "stop action" frames to make it appear the two male teenagers were in a "fight stance" and that for a fraction of a second one had his hand behind him. If one watches the entire sequence instead of a few carefully selected frames, it is obvious there was no excuse for Casebolt to draw his weapon.

As for being a liberal, thank you for pointing that out, just in case anyone missed it. I'm proud to be liberal.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I have never pledged to ignore her. I've only said that I TRY to ignore her. Sometimes, I fail.


Me too Nebs. Pretty hard to avoid answering her arrogance and the self love she spouts. But mostly the fact that she "doesn't read our posts and is never going to answer us again". what a crock. I have said the same, but decided I wasn't going to feel guilty about answering her when she says she isn't reading our posts and other weird things she says. I will also take her on if she starts insulting any of my friends which she does a lot.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> The point of contention is not why the police were called, which is immaterial. The point is what the police did. When law enforcement officers respond in the manner that Casebolt responded, there is a problem. Even his fellow officers recognized he was out of control. There was no threat that conceivably justified pulling his gun - though I have certainly seen some right-biased sites using "stop action" frames to make it appear the two male teenagers were in a "fight stance" and that for a fraction of a second one had his hand behind him. If one watches the entire sequence instead of a few carefully selected frames, it is obvious there was no excuse for Casebolt to draw his weapon.
> 
> As for being a liberal, thank you for pointing that out, just in case anyone missed it. I'm proud to be liberal.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: as am I.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Your family is famous, you are all stars. :thumbup:


Imagine that the pictures were shown all around the world!!
I saw them this morning and Pat and I watched HLN (off shoot of CNN) I heard the names when I was getting some things out of my cupboard and ran back and heard and watched the rest. What an adventure. I was happy to hear that they acknowledged both the mothers in law. It shows she knows what you have done. Proud day! Australia, Canada, likely many more places. It is a very big deal.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> On, yes! She (the fertility specialist) was awful! She made them cry. She told them that the babies would die or all be severely disabled. She said they'd all have brain bleeds and end up with Cerebral Palsy. She yelled at them. She went on and on for nearly an hour. She asked them what perinatologist they were going to go to and when they told her she said, "Oh no! He's a catholic! At least go to one who will talk some sense into you.". Neither of them could even consider killing any of their children. They agonized over her words for months, always afraid that something awful would happen. But she was wrong. GOD has blessed us with four beautiful babies, and should anything come up in the future, we'll deal with it.


And you will be right there to help them deal with it. What a reassurance that must be for them. You are a rock. Your son must be so proud. Yeah, Nebraska!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> And another country is heard from. Isn't it interesting that when a person whose sensibilities lean toward liberalism visits FFDP it is an "invasion", it is "trolling" and it is disparaged in strong and insulting terms.
> 
> But when the denim clad and pearl bedecked come to a topic that is a tete a tete among the liberal minded and they make mocking, disparaging, denigrating, negative remarks they see nothing wrong with that. Are we being too polite, too civilized, to treat them the way they treat us?
> 
> I vote to continue to walk the high road. That is what separates the classy from the crass.


I think this might be a repeat but I agree with everything you say. His actions were dreadful - no matter whether it is those who believe that it is good the young l4 year old should have been treated that way, or whether those of us who feel that there is NO EXCUSE for his actions. That is what we are talking about.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> First of all, I said, "engage in discussion". I don't think that anyone would disagree with me, that you don't " engage in discussion". According to you, you come here to correct others. I don't think it's appreciated by anyone.


First of all, I said I recently, posted to correct the FACTS on the pool party. I DID NOT suggest I posted to correct others. Get YOUR facts straight please.

I heard a lot from KPers who cannot stand those who frequent and regularly post on this thread, and who also refuse to even read the Liberal threads never mind engage anyone with a post or response. So don't bother trying to run me down with who or who does not appreciate my posts. Worry about your own reputation instead.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Second of all, you claimed that you don't respond to me. Not ONCE, have I made a comment to you, and had you NOT respond! You can't help yourself! You say you don't refer to me and yet, you admit that one of your friends was keeping tabs on what I say, and reported back to you. If you didn't care, why would they report my comments to you. I didn't apologize for thinking that just maybe, you were gork15, because I'm not sorry! When you've developed a reputation, you can't blame others for making a mistake.


Direct and blatant LIE. The only reason I read your posts recently is because it placed as my post did. You asked me a direct question, and I was thought it rude to not answer you. I will not waste any more of my time proving your lie. I probably have ignored/avoided/not responded to anything you have said to or about me for months if not a year; actually I have no idea how long, but obviously not long enough. You cannot help yourself to ignore and insult me. Your problem, not mine.

I DID not say one of my friends was keeping tabs on you and reporting to me. My FRIENDS don't care to read or respond to you either any more than I do. A fellow KPer who I barely know alerted me to the fact you accused me of being someone I wasn't. You are a paranoid person and automatically assumed the worst and insulted both me and a new KP user. YOU are the ugly one who decided to falsely accuse two people and now confirm you are not sorry for doing so. That is unexcusable in my book, but again, your reputation, not mine.

I didn't blame, accuse, or even address you or your nastiness but you have no problem doing the same to others who you obviously don't even know. Then you take no responsibility and attempt to blame me for YOUR actions.



Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Your comment about me not wanting anyone to challenge by beliefs, is ridiculous. I get challenged on nearly everything I say. I don't think we can learn anything new, if we only talk to people who agree with us. I also believe in having reciprocal discussion, not just dismissing others or insulting them. If you think I'm insulting you, then it's a very good thing that I'm practicing self restraint! You may be the belle of the ball on D&P, but I don't think it extends much further. It wasn't too long ago that you made a nasty comment on a thread that had to do with DonnieK. Several came forward to comment on your nastiness. You might have some people fooled, but certainly not everyone.


What despicable words come from you. Why don't you post often elsewhere on D & P which you bring up where you don't agree often with the posters, me being on? I'll tell you why, because you don't like to be challenged on your beliefs, you want control. If you're not able to force others to your way, its the highway for you. You run, and then place the blame on those you've stomped.

Case in point. I remember being one of the first people, if not the first person, to start a discussion with you when you first posted on D & P. You immediately tore into me and told me off and went quiet and left the thread. You didn't want discussion, you wanted everyone to fall in line and kowtow to your beliefs.

For the longest time you don't post there until Cmas when you posted a Christmas greeting to those you refused to engage in discussion (your words). Then you told everyone how hurt you were because no one on that thread publicly acknowledged your Cmas greeting. Seems you don't like discussion or challenges after all and prefer insulting and dismissing those who don't agree with you. You cannot have it both ways.

Finally, I NEVER made a nasty comment on a thread having to do with DonnieK. I believed another KP made a nasty remark to ME, and I addressed THAT person on DonnieK's thread. DonnieK and I exchanged several PMs as neither of us understood what had happened and she and I have no animosity between us. Furthermore, unbeknown to you, I received MANY PMs and e-mails from other KPers who thought as I did. So, once again, you chose to insult me and have no idea what transpired or refuse to explain with the truth.

You don't see the personal communications I have with others and frankly I couldn't care less what YOU tell me about my reputation.

Just today several private messages came to me about those on this thread who do what they do, you included. Those people tell me to not bother trying to talk to brick walls and put up with the BS and commentary ever present on this thread.

You think I've got everyone fooled? IMO the joke is on you.

I'll go back to both ignoring you and your nastiness. Heads up, I won't be answering any question unless I wish.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> What despicable words come from you. Why don't you post often elsewhere on D & P which you bring up where you don't agree often with the posters, me being on? I'll tell you why, because you don't like to be challenged on your beliefs, you want control. If you're not able to force others to your way, its the highway for you. You run, and then place the blame on those you've stomped.
> 
> Case in point. I remember being one of the first people, if not the first person, to start a discussion with you when you first posted on D & P. You immediately tore into me and told me off and went quiet and left the thread. You didn't want discussion, you wanted everyone to fall in line and kowtow to your beliefs.
> 
> ...


A memory like an elephant! I thought only elephants can remember everything, but then either you make notes or one or two of the others do. You quote stuff none of us even remember, or want to . You must spend your life hovering over this thread and writing down everything you take as an insult. I would bet your name has not been mentioned for 2 or 3 months. We don't like you - that is a fact.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm glad that I was born when and where I was.


I think all of us are glad of the same thing.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

I see IT has dropped in to stink up the place.
Open the windows, burn some candles, and get the air freshener.

It must be lonely or looking for attention again. Why it posts on threads where it is abhorred is beyond me. It's company is like fish. No matter how long it stays it stinks.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Eve - go and reread the posts of the people you speak about without knowing, once again, the facts.
> 
> I have no jealousy or desires you suggest. You are barking up the wrong tree and need to stop insulting me.
> 
> ...


=======================
Why would anyone go to someone elses post to find information about them. Or better yet use them like you do.

Wow! she has the KP archives to check on us!Shows how smart I am. that is why she can go back months and years! To be honest, I have never used the 'archives' of any one else except two and It was to prove to someone who called me a liar that I wasn't. Hmm actually I went back to mine not hers and what she said was there Showing I was not a liar.

.Mine must be boring with all the workshop posts. I consider them the business of the poster and I just don't have the time. Hm,that sure makes her life easier when she is looking for something to twist and turn. One person at a time, mark down the dates of the posts you want to use, then attack. Then go to the next person. WOW,


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> That's the word I was looking for ARCHIVED! I knew there was a better way of explaining her notes, dates, statements, (which she also says she never remembers).
> Wow! she has an archive on us.
> 
> The 60 plus workshops are archived, that means anyone who wants to refer to them can do so by looking up the subject. I never realized that you can enter every word for years -- and when in the mood bring up stuff that no one even remembers. I thought it was an Elephant memory --- It is ARCHIVED!! Wow.


It takes someone with too much wasted time on it's hands to do that. 
And the big response when it does is "So what?"
Shirley, let's not put down the elephants.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> It takes someone with too much wasted time on it's hands to do that.
> And the big response when it does is "So what?"
> Shirley, let's not put down the elephants.


good idea Patty.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> First of all, I said, "engage in discussion". I don't think that anyone would disagree with me, that you don't " engage in discussion". According to you, you come here to correct others. I don't think it's appreciated by anyone.
> 
> Second of all, you claimed that you don't respond to me. Not ONCE, have I made a comment to you, and had you NOT respond! You can't help yourself! You say you don't refer to me and yet, you admit that one of your friends was keeping tabs on what I say, and reported back to you. If you didn't care, why would they report my comments to you. I didn't apologize for thinking that just maybe, you were gork15, because I'm not sorry! When you've developed a reputation, you can't blame others for making a mistake.
> 
> Your comment about me not wanting anyone to challenge by beliefs, is ridiculous. I get challenged on nearly everything I say. I don't think we can learn anything new, if we only talk to people who agree with us. I also believe in having reciprocal discussion, not just dismissing others or insulting them. If you think I'm insulting you, then it's a very good thing that I'm practicing self restraint! You may be the belle of the ball on D&P, but I don't think it extends much further. It wasn't too long ago that you made a nasty comment on a thread that had to do with DonnieK. Several came forward to comment on your nastiness. You might have some people fooled, but certainly not everyone.


Don't give it a second thought, KFN. It is very jealous of your new grandchildren and very put out because nobody here even mentions it's name anymore. This was just a way for it to get attention any way it could, be it negative or not.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

KPG, you are truly beyond belief and you don't even make sense.

"First of all, I said I recently, posted to correct the FACTS on the pool party. I DID NOT suggest I posted to correct others. Get YOUR facts straight please."

Let's take a look at your logic. If you posted to correct something, it necessarily was an "other" person who posted something you felt was INCORRECT. After all, this isn't a news bureau - all posts are put here by "others." So, if not to correct others (or one other), what was the point of posting at all? It is abundantly clear that you believe yourself to be correct, so you feign innocence and attempt to make yourself look virtuous.

You're not fooling anyone.

Get YOUR facts straight, please.

Then kindly go away.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Thar she blows! Up ,up and away!!!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Thar she blows! Up ,up and away!!!


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Thar she blows! Up ,up and away!!!


Does your meme mean that The Unspeakable One is a glutton for punishment?


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> It takes someone with too much wasted time on it's hands to do that.
> And the big response when it does is "So what?"
> Shirley, let's not put down the elephants.


If we are getting into the realm of animal identities, why do I keep thinking of the sci-fi show "V" - the one where the invaders are reptiles with thin, penetrable human disguises?


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> =======================
> 
> Why would anyone go to someone elses post to find information about them. Or better yet use them like you do.
> 
> ...


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> It takes someone with too much wasted time on it's hands to do that.
> And the big response when it does is "So what?"
> Shirley, let's not put down the elephants.


Right - I love elephants usually.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> I think this might be a repeat but I agree with everything you say. His actions were dreadful - no matter whether it is those who believe that it is good the young l4 year old should have been treated that way, or whether those of us who feel that there is NO EXCUSE for his actions. That is what we are talking about.I also think we should try the high road. She is so nasty, and overbearing it is really hard.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Just don't ever respond. I did once and regretted it. It loves to be noticed. Don't feed the ego.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

aw9358 said:


> Just don't ever respond. I did once and regretted it. It loves to be noticed. Don't feed the ego.


Wise counsel, aw9358.

Every now and then it's fun to see how quickly It will toss out the "liar" epithet. As you probably already know, It never fails to disappoint on that score.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Wise counsel, aw9358.
> 
> Every now and then it's fun to see how quickly It will toss out the "liar" epithet. As you probably already know, It never fails to disappoint on that score.


Bright Green - whenever The Unspeakable One appears, I always wait for your great quote - do you know to which one I am referring?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Wise counsel, aw9358.
> 
> Every now and then it's fun to see how quickly It will toss out the "liar" epithet. As you probably already know, It never fails to disappoint on that score.


Let us not forget it's "FACTS". It is always the same thing time after time.
Mostly BS to be sure!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> Bright Green - whenever The Unspeakable One appears, I always wait for your great quote - do you know to which one I am referring?


I believe I once told someone to "shaddup"

Is that the one?

(Not nice, but I was sorely provoked)


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Let us not forget it's "FACTS". It is always the same thing time after time.
> Mostly BS to be sure!


I've been following this recent incident on different sites and there are certain facts that It relayed that are completely true. Those facts have to do with the events leading up to the arrival of police. In all honesty, I might have called the police myself if faced with the situation at the swimming pool; specifically a resident had sent out flyers about the party and was charging admission. This clearly was in violation of the HOA rules and she was wrong to do this. Never, ever, under any provocation, would I use racial slurs, though. That was the spark that ignited a tense situation.

What chaps my butt is the failure of many (generally those of a conservative view) who somehow use those facts as justification for police brutality. Any old excuse to absolve the police of wrongdoing.

The issue as I see it, is Casebolt's egregious behavior. What he did to that 14-year-old is illegal. Police can't assault people - even if verbally provoked. If Casebolt had treated a suspect who just robbed a convenience store the same way it would STILL be illegal. If he was putting handcuffs on a murder suspect, assaulting that suspect (absent firearms, of course), would be illegal. Assault is assault, damn it. That's why there is a definition of "reasonable" force.

Using the HOA facility without permission, for profit, and inviting more guests than allowed is a civil matter. No business of the police except to assist in clearing unauthorized people from the property. Immaterial to what happened to the 14-year-old.

Remember, that officer has been charged with other acts of discrimination in the past. Crimes. Yet, some conservative minds focus on the wrong issue entirely. It seems to be a common tactic to obscure the frequent racial component of police mis-behavior and pretend racism doesn't exist.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> I believe I once told someone to "shaddup"
> 
> Is that the one?
> 
> (Not nice, but I was sorely provoked)


Shaddup and get out of here. Simple but truly memorable.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> Shaddup and get out of here. Simple but truly memorable.


LOL

Too bad I can't be more succinct all the time! (And take my own advice regarding you-know-who)


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> And another country is heard from. Isn't it interesting that when a person whose sensibilities lean toward liberalism visits FFDP it is an "invasion", it is "trolling" and it is disparaged in strong and insulting terms.
> 
> But when the denim clad and pearl bedecked come to a topic that is a tete a tete among the liberal minded and they make mocking, disparaging, denigrating, negative remarks they see nothing wrong with that. Are we being too polite, too civilized, to treat them the way they treat us?
> 
> I vote to continue to walk the high road. That is what separates the classy from the crass.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: "...the denim clad and pearl bedecked..." I love it! Can't stop laughing.

You're right Marilyn, the high road is the way to go.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I see IT has dropped in to stink up the place.
> Open the windows, burn some candles, and get the air freshener.
> 
> It must be lonely or looking for attention again. Why it posts on threads where it is abhorred is beyond me. It's company is like fish. No matter how long it stays it stinks.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: Hello Helen, uh, Brat!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Thar she blows! Up ,up and away!!!


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> KPG, you are truly beyond belief and you don't even make sense.
> 
> "First of all, I said I recently, posted to correct the FACTS on the pool party. I DID NOT suggest I posted to correct others. Get YOUR facts straight please."
> 
> ...


Green, your logic is sound and satisfying. I've missed not seeing you around as much. How are you?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> What chaps my butt is the failure of many (generally those of a conservative view) who somehow use those facts as justification for police brutality. Any old excuse to absolve the police of wrongdoing.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: "...chaps my butt..." Sorry, but this has got me on the floor! :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

KFN, the babies are too cute and delightful! I keep going back to their pictures to warm my heart. 

Now that your family is famous, you may want to consider a media manager!!! Maybe you could fill that role?

Just kidding!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> That fertility "specialist" was skirting the edge of malpractice. It is one thing to present all the options and explain some possible consequences, then let the patient make an informed decision. It is another thing to try to bully a patient into acting in accordance with the medical practitioner's beliefs. It is horrible to try to frighten and intimidate the patient with scare tactics.
> 
> I am so totally happy your lovely children were granted the gift of parenthood and that the babies are so healthy and adorable. Sure the first couple of years will be frenetic, but once they can feed themselves and start potty practice, all of a sudden the world will slow to a lovely orbit and I hope the rest of long, fulfilling lives will be wonderful.


Only too true, Marilyn. The specialist must have been out of her mind not to sound out DIL's feelings about abortion beforehand and then only attempt to implant as many embryos as she, DIL, could safely carry. As for trying to bully her into a selective abortion, that's just plain wrong. Abortion isn't the right choice for me, but I'd never try to force my views on someone else--either for or against.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> What despicable words come from you. Why don't you post often elsewhere on D & P which you bring up where you don't agree often with the posters, me being on? I'll tell you why, because you don't like to be challenged on your beliefs, you want control. If you're not able to force others to your way, its the highway for you. You run, and then place the blame on those you've stomped.
> 
> Case in point. I remember being one of the first people, if not the first person, to start a discussion with you when you first posted on D & P. You immediately tore into me and told me off and went quiet and left the thread. You didn't want discussion, you wanted everyone to fall in line and kowtow to your beliefs.
> 
> ...


I'm going to cut right to the chase--leave Nebraska alone. The birth of the quads has been a great event for her and her family--why do you want to spoil it by picking fights and calling names? Can't you for once just leave someone be?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Green, your logic is sound and satisfying. I've missed not seeing you around as much. How are you?


I'm well, Wombat, thank you.

I finally have the house in order again after about 7 weeks of demolition or reconstruction. The last week was especially difficult - I think my endurance ran out slightly before the end of the chaos. I wept.

There are still tasks to do. A lot of baseboard was replaced, so the little nail holes need to be spackled, sanded and primed, then I will have to paint them. It promises to be tedious, since in some areas the paint came away from the wall when they pulled the baseboards and there will be masking, painting, waiting, masking, painting....and that doesn't include the rooms that need to be repainted or the painting I've already done.

I have purchased the necessary paint. I need a little more time to recover before I tackle the floor-level work. I'm too old for this!

Meanwhile, work transitioned immediately from the interior to the back yard. We had already begun renovation in the back, including pulling up pavers and concrete and generally making a nasty mess when the leak in the house was discovered and we had a major detour. We will be leaving the last week of August for another big road trip, so there is no time to relax - we have to get the yard done NOW. We had a gazebo that was converted to a shed sometime in the past that had to be pulled down and a hot tub that was cut in pieces for removal. I've picked up nails, shingles, assorted debris. Pulled weeds. Dug up plants that I want to rescue. Designed a garden area. Cleaned muddy shoe globs from the kitchen and entry. The usual fun stuff.

How are you?


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> I'm well, Wombat, thank you.
> 
> I finally have the house in order again after about 7 weeks of demolition or reconstruction. The last week was especially difficult - I think my endurance ran out slightly before the end of the chaos. I wept.
> 
> ...


You are the husband I have always been looking for. What don't you do?


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> You are the husband I have always been looking for. What don't you do?


I don't do windows.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> It certainly does matter what happened before the police intervened, as that is the reason they were called in the first place. In order for the police to defuse the situation they have to know the FACTS. It's quite obvious that you, with your "open liberal mind", don't let the facts get in the way of your prejudices.


 :thumbup: The Libs overwhelmingly ignore the facts so they can push whatever agenda and story they believe will best suit their purpose.

I love how those who have already decided the pool party was a racist incident and have already determined the one cop to be a racist and guilty, refuse to remember the FACTS in several recent cases wherein their claims proved WRONG every single time.

Everyone said Travon was murdered without cause and that Zimmerman was guilty. A jury determined Z was not guilty.

Obama and the media all declared the police in Cambridge, MA, were racist and 'acted stupidly.' Well, no charges or indictments were ever recorded that I recall.

Then look to Fergurson. All Libs, Progressives and the LSM declared racism and wrongful death. Only one problem for those declarations; after no indictment AG Holder and his team did an extensive review of the case. The findings showed Officer Wilson was guilty as charged in the court of public opinion. Yet, even Holder and his team admitted Wilson was not guilty upon finalizing their review. Yet, Wilson's very life was threatened, his life in upheaval and his source of income taken from him. All to a man found INNOCENT in several legal decisions.

Then we now hear how the state AG in Baltimore intentionally demanded the police patrol and make arrests in the very area where Fred Gray was picked up. The Mayor may have been knowledgable as well. Again, the court of public opinion decided the six cops are guilty and the AG tried the six cops from the podium where she charged, tarred and feathered them. Where is their justice and protection of the law that says innocent until proven guilty? Mosley did so KNOWING she specifically requested her force to follow her orders. It has been said Mosley, too, has an agenda and is using her position to get what she wants and probably to make a name for herself. None of the facts are my opinion but the reports of solid journalism.

Is it any wonder that the ratings for Lib or Prog radio stations, cable channels, 'news' orgs (MSNBC), newspapers, etc., are in the tank and barely surviving? When does the facts, the truth, morals, integrity and strength of character and principles enter their equations. IMO it only matters they "win" or smear the person(s) they set out against.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> What despicable words come from you. Why don't you post often elsewhere on D & P which you bring up where you don't agree often with the posters, me being on? I'll tell you why, because you don't like to be challenged on your beliefs, you want control. If you're not able to force others to your way, its the highway for you. You run, and then place the blame on those you've stomped.
> 
> Case in point. I remember being one of the first people, if not the first person, to start a discussion with you when you first posted on D & P. You immediately tore into me and told me off and went quiet and left the thread. You didn't want discussion, you wanted everyone to fall in line and kowtow to your beliefs.
> 
> ...


I will only respond to one point. 
The reason I stopped posting on D&P is because you and I were in conflict. I know that the women on D&P consider it a haven. They want a place they can go to avoid conflict. I stopped posting there because I respect them. However, because I stopped posting there doesn't mean that I've stopped being friends with some of them. But don't worry, we don't talk about you!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> KFN, the babies are too cute and delightful! I keep going back to their pictures to warm my heart.
> 
> Now that your family is famous, you may want to consider a media manager!!! Maybe you could fill that role?
> 
> Just kidding!


Thanks, Wombat! They warm my heart as well. I just got home from the hospital, a little while ago. I got to hold three of them before I was just exhausted. My son showed up just in time to feed Kayla, so we took off. Tomorrow, I'll make sure I get to hold Kayla. They've moved the babies to a less urgent NICU, so they're all together now, which is nice but also not so nice. I hear every whimper and cry. And when I'm holding one, I can't go to the others, due to the wires and tubes. On well! Soon, they'll be coming home.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Only too true, Marilyn. The specialist must have been out of her mind not to sound out DIL's feelings about abortion beforehand and then only attempt to implant as many embryos as she, DIL, could safely carry. As for trying to bully her into a selective abortion, that's just plain wrong. Abortion isn't the right choice for me, but I'd never try to force my views on someone else--either for or against.


There were no embryos implanted. They did not use in vitro. They used fertility drugs and a procedure called an IUI (intra uterine insemination). The fertility drug causes the ovaries to release one or more eggs. The eggs are confirmed by ultrasound and the sperm is inserted directly into the uterus. At the time of the IUI, there were TWO ripe eggs. Apparently, two more ripened quickly. They probably would not have done the procedure at that time, if four ripe eggs had been present. But I'm glad they did! We've been blessed.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

DGreen said:


> KPG, you are truly beyond belief and you don't even make sense.
> 
> "First of all, I said I recently, posted to correct the FACTS on the pool party. I DID NOT suggest I posted to correct others. Get YOUR facts straight please."
> 
> ...


Be sure you stand up straight with shoulders back when you make such stupid comments while declaring yourself proud to be a Liberal.

You've shown once again you cannot follow the written word and certainly have no understanding of logic. For you to throw your post above in my face to berate me is laughable. It is unfortunate you cannot comprehend that I posted the FACTS of the pool party case to refute the inaccurate statements made by others and to defend both the alleged innocent and guilty since NO ONE knows all the facts yet in evidence.

Yes, let's look at my logic and words. I purposely did not say I corrected other's 'facts' because what was posted were NOT facts. I believe I called them inaccurate comments or incorrect statements, etc. I didn't post to correct another's opinions or initiate insulting anyone. That's the game of those regularly posting on this thread which I find despicable.

I cannot get over how so many of the 'regulars' posting on this thread cannot understand what they read so they resort to person insults and attempt to place their inadequacies and the blame on the OP.

I GOT MY facts straight and didn't feign anything. I added additional info/facts as I learned more in each subsequent post.

However, I can recall many times when I read your post how you proved you have no clue or logical thought process on the topic at hand. One time you couldn't even explain your own beliefs about atheism - remember? I do. You rattled and rolled and only after I explained and proved to you what YOU said of yourself, did you admit and register any comprehension.

Tough to be you I guess.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I'm going to cut right to the chase--leave Nebraska alone. The birth of the quads has been a great event for her and her family--why do you want to spoil it by picking fights and calling names? Can't you for once just leave someone be?


Thank you, Susan! But it's my fault. I tried to get her to just leave.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> : Where is their justice and protection of the law that says innocent until proven guilty?


Where is Freddie Gray's justice and protection of the law? He was not even accused of a crime, yet he ended up dead.

Seems a whole lot worse than being charged with crimes and living through it. The police will get their day in court.

You are implying the mayor was responsible for Freddie's death. Try to remember if it's not too difficult for you - she was not there. Those six monsters they call police officers were there and a young man died for no reason.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Be sure you stand up straight with shoulders back when you make such stupid comments while declaring yourself proud to be a Liberal.
> 
> You've shown once again you cannot follow the written word and certainly have no understanding of logic. For you to throw your post above in my face to berate me is laughable. It is unfortunate you cannot comprehend that I posted the FACTS of the pool party case to refute the inaccurate statements made by others and to defend both the alleged innocent and guilty since NO ONE knows all the facts yet in evidence.
> 
> ...


You just admitted what you denied in your previous post. Tough to be you. (No guesswork required)


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I'm well, Wombat, thank you.
> 
> I finally have the house in order again after about 7 weeks of demolition or reconstruction. The last week was especially difficult - I think my endurance ran out slightly before the end of the chaos. I wept.
> 
> ...


And I thought I was tired! At least you'll have a nice, clean fresh house and yard when you're done. I've missed my spring cleaning altogether and my gardens are weedy. Too much to do!

Where are you going on your trip? I hope you'll share details and pics, like you did last year. Have fun, but find some time to relax. You'll need it!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> You are the husband I have always been looking for. What don't you do?


 :XD:


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you, Susan! But it's my fault. I tried to get her to just leave.


You asked me a direct question AND, insulted me several times and once again asked/told me to leave. If you didn't want an answer, don't ask the question. SIMPLE.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I don't do windows.


I LOVE cleaning my windows and blinds! The world always looks so much brighter, when I'm done.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> There were no embryos implanted. They did not use in vitro. They used fertility drugs and a procedure called an IUI (intra uterine insemination). The fertility drug causes the ovaries to release one or more eggs. The eggs are confirmed by ultrasound and the sperm is inserted directly into the uterus. At the time of the IUI, there were TWO ripe eggs. Apparently, two more ripened quickly. They probably would not have done the procedure at that time, if four ripe eggs had been present. But I'm glad they did! We've been blessed.


Absolutely. It's wonderful that the four babes and your DIL are happy and healthy.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You asked me a direct question AND once again asked me to leave. If you didn't want an answer, don't ask the question. SIMPLE.


It was a SIMPLE question and you responded with a tome. (I mean that figuratively. Please don't accuse me of lying.)

BTW: you never did answer my question. Why do you keep coming back?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you, Susan! But it's my fault. I tried to get her to just leave.


It never works, does it? (Says one who knows  ) But don't let her spoil your happiness--just ignore.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Gifts is off her meds. Or maybe this is her way of making a friendly visit to us. Wouldn't it be the right thing for all of us to repay the visit in Denim Country?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> Gifts is off her meds. Or maybe this is her way of making a friendly visit to us. Wouldn't it be the right thing for all of us to repay the visit in Denim Country?


Certainly is tempting--She Who Cannot Not Be Named is being seriously annoying.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> It never works, does it? (Says one who knows  ) But don't let her spoil your happiness--just ignore.


She couldn't spoil my happiness if she tried!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And I thought I was tired! At least you'll have a nice, clean fresh house and yard when you're done. I've missed my spring cleaning altogether and my gardens are weedy. Too much to do!
> 
> Where are you going on your trip? I hope you'll share details and pics, like you did last year. Have fun, but find some time to relax. You'll need it!


Thanks, Nebs. Yes, it's nice to have everything clean, inside, at least. The grit and dust of the reconstruction was very difficult to endure. The definition of a losing battle. Of course, my piddly problems were nothing compared to the heroism you displayed the last couple of months. I've grown to respect your knowledge and patience with Max and your loving care of your family a great deal. You AMAZE me.

We will be leaving late August, headed north through the Rockies with stops to see my sister in Colorado Springs, then on to Rocky Mountain NP, then to South Dakota and the badlands/Mt. Rushmore, etc. From there we will swing north again and head east near the Canadian border, skirting the great lakes. I plan a stop at Lambeau Field - I'm a big Packers fan. My DH has a 50th high school reunion in Illinois at the end of September so we will visit his old buddies and some family before heading east again to New England to catch the color. Niagra Falls, the Adirondacks, upstate New York, Washington, DC, Gettysburg, Cape Hatteras....down the east coast to Florida to visit DH's brother, then New Orleans and the Gulf coast and home about mid-November. Our route will be sort of a zig-zag course around the US border/coast.

Whew. Lots of driving. I have a huge tote full of road maps and visitor's guides. I've identified stops and campsites between here and the Adirondacks so far.

Of course, this whole trip is just one big photo op for me! I've also become an avid birdwatcher, so I'm looking forward to seeing species not common here in Arizona. I promise to share photos. I kept a journal last trip and e-mailed about 30 people every day. It was so much fun and served the dual purpose of documenting our wonderful Alaskan trip at the same time. Perhaps a daily note to my friends on KP would be in order this time.

We bought a new truck last week with a bigger engine so the RV will be easier to tow. I'm lovin' it. Since DH won't be doing any of the driving, I've become quite interested in engines, towing capacity, hitch capacities, etc. Very macho.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Gifts is off her meds. Or maybe this is her way of making a friendly visit to us. Wouldn't it be the right thing for all of us to repay the visit in Denim Country?


Why take it to them? They've not done anything. I don't think she cares, or she wouldn't keep coming here and poking at others. Just leave them in peace.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I LOVE cleaning my windows and blinds! The world always looks so much brighter, when I'm done.


Ugh. I hate doing it, but you are so right. The whole world seems cleaner right after washing windows.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Thanks, Nebs. Yes, it's nice to have everything clean, inside, at least. The grit and dust of the reconstruction was very difficult to endure. The definition of a losing battle. Of course, my piddly problems were nothing compared to the heroism you displayed the last couple of months. I've grown to respect your knowledge and patience with Max and your loving care of your family a great deal. You AMAZE me.
> 
> We will be leaving late August, headed north through the Rockies with stops to see my sister in Colorado Springs, then on to Rocky Mountain NP, then to South Dakota and the badlands/Mt. Rushmore, etc. From there we will swing north again and head east near the Canadian border, skirting the great lakes. I plan a stop at Lambeau Field - I'm a big Packers fan. My DH has a 50th high school reunion in Illinois at the end of September so we will visit his old buddies and some family before heading east again to New England to catch the color. Niagra Falls, the Adirondacks, upstate New York, Washington, DC, Gettysburg, Cape Hatteras....down the east coast to Florida to visit DH's brother, then New Orleans and the Gulf coast and home about mid-November. Our route will be sort of a zig-zag course around the US border/coast.
> 
> ...


WOW! I am "Green" with envy! That sounds wonderful! I'd love a trip like that! I've been in and through the Rockies several times. It was beautiful! I grew up in South Dakota and we used to go out to the Hills every year. I never get tired of it! They've had problems with pine beetles lately and it's sad to see the devastation they've caused. I hope it won't be so near to where you're going. Other than that, I've been to the Great Lakes and Illinois, but not the rest. It sounds like exactly the type of trip I'd enjoy!


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> WOW! I am "Green" with envy! That sounds wonderful! I'd love a trip like that! I've been in and through the Rockies several times. It was beautiful! I grew up in South Dakota and we used to go out to the Hills every year. I never get tired of it! They've had problems with pine beetles lately and it's sad to see the devastation they've caused. I hope it won't be so near to where you're going. Other than that, I've been to the Great Lakes and Illinois, but not the rest. It sounds like exactly the type of trip I'd enjoy!


I know you're allowing yourself a week or two of rest before the babies leave the hospital--have you and DH thought about taking a short trip during the time? It's summer, the weather is beautiful, and once those precious babes come home you won't be able to tear yourself away!


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> Gifts is off her meds. Or maybe this is her way of making a friendly visit to us. Wouldn't it be the right thing for all of us to repay the visit in Denim Country?


 No, no way! I think that is what the nameless one wants, then she can accuse us of violating her sacred territory. Leave the posting on Demon and Pestilence country to the nameless one and her cronies. I do not visit that country, not even for a very quick glance. Do not play her childish games.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> You just admitted what you denied in your previous post. Tough to be you. (No guesswork required)


and on, and on, and on,,,, and on, and on and on. Same old, same old sarcasm, superiority, insults, overbearing self aggrandizement and lecturing people who couldn't care less what she says.

We have our knowledge of the case, and we have our opinions. Nothing she can ever say will make us agree in this case. That l4 year old girl was abused (very badly) by an adult policeman who lost his temper and his common sense. There is NO excuse possible for his actions. No matter what or who started it.I don't give a darn how the party started, who invited who, or anythng else. He overreacted more than once and he abused that child. He quit rather than face the facts as he knew he would lose his job.

Thank Heavens for cameras. They tell the truth not matter who takes the picture!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> No, no way! I think that is what the nameless one wants, then she can accuse us of violating her sacred territory. Leave the posting on Demon and Pestilence country to the nameless one and her cronies. I do not visit that country, not even for a very quick glance. Do not play her childish games.


I agree, it is what she wants us to do. Get them all stirred up so she can have control of them, and possibly that way they won't read her posts to us!


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Certainly is tempting--She Who Cannot Not Be Named is being seriously annoying.


Yes, it is like walking down a country lane and suddenly finding yourself standing in a bull ant's nest. But agree that she is seriously annoying but then she is just throwing a hissy fit like any other two year old who wants attention. Change her nappy, give her a bottle of warm milk and put her in her little cot and hopefully she will go to sleep and leave us alone.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> WOW! I am "Green" with envy! That sounds wonderful! I'd love a trip like that! I've been in and through the Rockies several times. It was beautiful! I grew up in South Dakota and we used to go out to the Hills every year. I never get tired of it! They've had problems with pine beetles lately and it's sad to see the devastation they've caused. I hope it won't be so near to where you're going. Other than that, I've been to the Great Lakes and Illinois, but not the rest. It sounds like exactly the type of trip I'd enjoy!


In that case, I definitely need to send my travel blog so you can "join" us on the trip.

We have pine beetles here in Arizona, too. I understand they die off when the weather is cold enough, but the southwest has been drought-stricken and warm. Then there are the fires. Horrible.

When DH and I retired we decided to do as much traveling as possible before we get too old or something else comes along to restrict us. I LOVE traveling with our camper, because we can travel at our own pace and stop or go as we want. It seems so much more intimate and "in touch" with the wonders of the world. Since flying has become a nightmare ordeal, I have no desire to board a plane anyway.

I hope your turn comes. Maybe with the quads and Max when they get older.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes, it is like walking down a country lane and suddenly finding yourself standing in a bull ant's nest. But agree that she is seriously annoying but then she is just throwing a hissy fit like any other two year old who wants attention. Change her nappy, give her a bottle of warm milk and put her in her little cot and hopefully she will go to sleep and leave us alone.


 :XD: :XD:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Yes, it is like walking down a country lane and suddenly finding yourself standing in a bull ant's nest. But agree that she is seriously annoying but then she is just throwing a hissy fit like any other two year old who wants attention. Change her nappy, give her a bottle of warm milk and put her in her little cot and hopefully she will go to sleep and leave us alone.


You nailed it, Eve.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It was a SIMPLE question and you responded with a tome. (I mean that figuratively. Please don't accuse me of lying.)
> 
> BTW: you never did answer my question. Why do you keep coming back?


Why don't you leave. ]

We are celebrating the birth of four beautiful babies who survived when some thought they wouldn't. they are healthy and good weights and we are all celebrating. I imagine that is why you chose to come and stir. It has been extra fun for you as you managed to attack Nebs, and it must have given you a lot of cheap thrills so know she was way too happy for you to be able to stand it. What a 
sad person you really are.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I know you're allowing yourself a week or two of rest before the babies leave the hospital--have you and DH thought about taking a short trip during the time? It's summer, the weather is beautiful, and once those precious babes come home you won't be able to tear yourself away!


My hubby won't be able to take any time off right now. He covers the entire state of Nebraska and part of Iowa and South Dakota. The two other guys that cover Iowa are in the reserves, and are gone for this week and next. The other guy who covers South Dakota is having surgery at the beginning of next week and will be out for several weeks. He's been crazy busy, and will be for several weeks.

However, hubby has to go to Iowa for two or three days next week. I'm going to tag along. While I won't see anything I haven't seen before, I'll enjoy the ride and the company. I'll get lots of knitting done, without interruptions. And I won't have to cook or clean! So, there's that.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> In that case, I definitely need to send my travel blog so you can "join" us on the trip.
> 
> We have pine beetles here in Arizona, too. I understand they die off when the weather is cold enough, but the southwest has been drought-stricken and warm. Then there are the fires. Horrible.
> 
> ...


Yes! I'll look forward to your blog!


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> My hubby won't be able to take any time off right now. He covers the entire state of Nebraska and part of Iowa and South Dakota. The two other guys that cover Iowa are in the reserves, and are gone for this week and next. The other guy who covers South Dakota is having surgery at the beginning of next week and will be out for several weeks. He's been crazy busy, and will be for several weeks.
> 
> However, hubby has to go to Iowa for two or three days next week. I'm going to tag along. While I won't see anything I haven't seen before, I'll enjoy the ride and the company. I'll get lots of knitting done, without interruptions. And I won't have to cook or clean! So, there's that.


I think you need the change of pace. Good for you.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Why don't you leave. ]
> 
> We are celebrating the birth of four beautiful babies who survived when some thought they wouldn't. they are healthy and good weights and we are all celebrating. I imagine that is why you chose to come and stir. It has been extra fun for you as you managed to attack Nebs, and it must have given you a lot of cheap thrills so know she was way too happy for you to be able to stand it. What a
> sad person you really are.


Just let it go. I took a poke at her, and she poked back. Maybe it will die down.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Good nighnight ladies! I've got to give up and go to bed. I'm thoroughly exhausted. Ttyl!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I'm well, Wombat, thank you.
> 
> I finally have the house in order again after about 7 weeks of demolition or reconstruction. The last week was especially difficult - I think my endurance ran out slightly before the end of the chaos. I wept.
> 
> ...


I'm well thank you.

Your renovations remind me of the time I spent renovating. I do empathise because it is so labour intensive and seemingly endless. And tiring? Don't remind me. I also know that point you get to when there is nothing else you can do but weep. Oh how I know THAT!

We purchased a house in an inner suburb of Melbourne which had been bastardized to the wazoo! Louvered windows had replaced beautiful casement leadlight windows all throughout, the glorious verandah had been replaced with a steel frame and corrugated fibre sheeting atop. It looked like a run down beach house at best; a crack house at worst.

The house next door was exactly as our house used to be and we had a vision: return the house to it's former glory and design a garden that would make Vogue Living proud. And we did. It took about 9 months and the house was just about rebuilt. Fortunately the frame, the internal floors and plaster work were excellent but that was it. New windows throughout (originals), verandah re-done, new roof, all weatherboards replaced, foundations had to be re-done. We had to dig out 5 tons of earth which had settled against one side of the house (land was on a slope).

I waited until the house was finished all bar the painting to start on the front garden. I completely denuded the garden beds (couldn't tell you what the shrubs were), and started from scratch; old brick garden bed borders, lush grass rolled in and I created a semi-formal english garden and it was beautiful (even if I say so myself)!

While getting the garden sorted I picked out rubbish that filled about 10 huge garden refuse bins. Each was so heavy I had to get husband to roll them out onto the curb on collection days. I was out the front one day when this kid on a bike was riding on the footpath and he decided to kick
the bin and because it was as heavy as lead, he was thrown off his bike onto the grass and started to cry (16 years old mind you) so I told him not to be a cry baby, not to kick bins and to get on his bike and take a hike!

After that I wept!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> You are the husband I have always been looking for. What don't you do?


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I'm well thank you.
> 
> Your renovations remind me of the time I spent renovating. I do empathise because it is so labour intensive and seemingly endless. And tiring? Don't remind me. I also know that point you get to when there is nothing else you can do but weep. Oh how I know THAT!
> 
> ...


I can just imagine the amount of work it took to restore your home to it's former grace and beauty....I may have taken on such a task when I was younger, but not now.

Our construction was unplanned and was the result of a water leak that went undetected for a long time. To make matters worse, we went through the same thing 18 months ago so I knew what to expect. Sometimes knowing that is not a good thing.

So glad the insurance carrier was exceptionally helpful and paid without quibbling. I count us fortunate on that score.

You must have rejoiced when that job was complete.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Gifts is off her meds. Or maybe this is her way of making a friendly visit to us. Wouldn't it be the right thing for all of us to repay the visit in Denim Country?


 :XD: :XD: :XD: We could visit, but then poor old admin would be pummeled with reports as usual and they'll tell everyone to back off and blah, blah, blah!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> No, no way! I think that is what the nameless one wants, then she can accuse us of violating her sacred territory. Leave the posting on Demon and Pestilence country to the nameless one and her cronies. I do not visit that country, not even for a very quick glance. Do not play her childish games.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: "...Demon and Pestilence..." Pure gold!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I can just imagine the amount of work it took to restore your home to it's former grace and beauty....I may have taken on such a task when I was younger, but not now.
> 
> Our construction was unplanned and was the result of a water leak that went undetected for a long time. To make matters worse, we went through the same thing 18 months ago so I knew what to expect. Sometimes knowing that is not a good thing.
> 
> ...


I'm glad to hear that the insurance crowd were easy. That must be such a relief. And to have the same drama repeat itself would be more than one could take I imagine. How ghastly!

When the house was finished it looked beautiful. All of the original features both inside and out were restored and we had it painted according to the colour choices at the time it was built. We were very, very proud and happy with the result and we had a lot of positive feedback from neighbours and passersby which was lovely.

I have to say though, that is the last time I want to do anything like that again. It was incredibly difficult at times and I had my toddler son who was actually really good during the whole thing.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> I'm well thank you.
> 
> Your renovations remind me of the time I spent renovating. I do empathise because it is so labour intensive and seemingly endless. And tiring? Don't remind me. I also know that point you get to when there is nothing else you can do but weep. Oh how I know THAT!
> 
> ...


You are also amazing. I can do nothing but binge on Netflix at this point or hire others to remodel. Bright Green and Wombat are exactly what I would want in a man.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I'm glad to hear that the insurance crowd were easy. That must be such a relief. And to have the same drama repeat itself would be more than one could take I imagine. How ghastly!
> 
> When the house was finished it looked beautiful. All of the original features both inside and out were restored and we had it painted according to the colour choices at the time it was built. We were very, very proud and happy with the result and we had a lot of positive feedback from neighbours and passersby which was lovely.
> 
> I have to say though, that is the last time I want to do anything like that again. It was incredibly difficult at times and I had my toddler son who was actually really good during the whole thing.


I would hate to count the number of properties I have renovated, over three states. That is how my ex made his money. Buy an old and run down property, live in it whilst you are renovating and then sell and do the same all over again. No capital gains tax on your principal private residence when you sell at a profit. Imagine a 65 foot long passage down the centre of the house, built with cement bricks and my ex wants to extend the two front rooms across the passage way into one large room and open the kitchen and dining room door ways at the other end of the passage into double doors. Why, oh why did he have to start demolishing at both ends of the passage at the same time!!!!! Throw into that mix a two year old who has just been taken off his epilepsy medicine, phenobarb and valium every four hours, and said two year old is autistic but undiagnosed. Nightmare! Or moving into a Queensland property that did not have an unbroken window or doors on all the rooms and in the back yard are two old, rusted 1,000 gallon water tanks that the tenants over the years have been throwing their rubbish in and then burning. Said tanks were disintegrating but full of half burnt rubbish, broken glass, you name it. When we moved into the Firthside property in Tassie it was new but only half built. The internal walls were up but not the external walls. We had them clad in freestone. There were no internal doors, only half the place was wired for electricity and no floors in the upstairs, in fact no stairs, you had to climb a ladder to get there. The main bedroom had two large holes in the wall at one end where the internal walls had not been completed. Or the Mt Barker house down the south where you could not go into the two back rooms, the old kitchen and dining room because the floors had rotted away. That house was 108 years old when we moved into it. Honestly I would say that from 1975 until 1990 I only lived in a completed house for a very short period of time, the time between finishing the houses and selling them. I think that is why I have so much trouble with my back and hands now. Too much stripping of old paint, painting, digging ditches, ripping up old carpets, scrubbing ceilings, just thinking about it is making all my aches and pains act up. This house could do with a reno but too bad, the value is in the land. I guess son will reap the benefit when the land is subdivided, the only thing that is holding it up is the property is not connected to the deep sewerage and there are no plans to connect the 8 houses and child mining centre on the west side of the road to the sewerage. There is sewerage on the east side of the road but you cannot pump sewerage up hill. Do not ask me why they did not do the job properly when they installed the sewerage back in the 70 and install it so the whole street could be connected. One bright aspect though, I do not have to have sewerage rates on with my water rates and that means a big savings, big $$$s.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> I would hate to count the number of properties I have renovated, over three states. That is how my ex made his money. Buy an old and run down property, live in it whilst you are renovating and then sell and do the same all over again. No capital gains tax on your principal private residence when you sell at a profit. Imagine a 65 foot long passage down the centre of the house, built with cement bricks and my ex wants to extend the two front rooms across the passage way into one large room and open the kitchen and dining room door ways at the other end of the passage into double doors. Why, oh why did he have to start demolishing at both ends of the passage at the same time!!!!! Throw into that mix a two year old who has just been taken off his epilepsy medicine, phenobarb and valium every four hours, and said two year old is autistic but undiagnosed. Nightmare! Or moving into a Queensland property that did not have an unbroken window or doors on all the rooms and in the back yard are two old, rusted 1,000 gallon water tanks that the tenants over the years have been throwing their rubbish in and then burning. Said tanks were disintegrating but full of half burnt rubbish, broken glass, you name it. When we moved into the Firthside property in Tassie it was new but only half built. The internal walls were up but not the external walls. We had them clad in freestone. There were no internal doors, only half the place was wired for electricity and no floors in the upstairs, in fact no stairs, you had to climb a ladder to get there. The main bedroom had two large holes in the wall at one end where the internal walls had not been completed. Or the Mt Barker house down the south where you could not go into the two back rooms, the old kitchen and dining room because the floors had rotted away. That house was 108 years old when we moved into it. Honestly I would say that from 1975 until 1990 I only lived in a completed house for a very short period of time, the time between finishing the houses and selling them. I think that is why I have so much trouble with my back and hands now. Too much stripping of old paint, painting, digging ditches, ripping up old carpets, scrubbing ceilings, just thinking about it is making all my aches and pains act up. This house could do with a reno but too bad, the value is in the land. I guess son will reap the benefit when the land is subdivided, the only thing that is holding it up is the property is not connected to the deep sewerage and there are no plans to connect the 8 houses and child mining centre on the west side of the road to the sewerage. There is sewerage on the east side of the road but you cannot pump sewerage up hill. Do not ask me why they did not do the job properly when they installed the sewerage back in the 70 and install it so the whole street could be connected. One bright aspect though, I do not have to have sewerage rates on with my water rates and that means a big savings, big $$$s.


First, I MUST KNOW what a child mining centre is.

Second, you must share your secret for resisting the urge to kill that man. As I recall, your husband had a penchant for making your life miserable in other ways, as well.


----------



## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Hi all,
I'm in Maine. We are now in a two-bedroom hotel suite in Bangor. The house was set on its foundation on Thursday. We have not driven by there yet as we have been dealing over the phone and e-mail with movers and real estate issues, and unpacking our things here, and figuring out what went to the storage unit that should not have, and what came here that should have one o the storage unit.
In all this there is excellent news about Jonathan: David had made a reservation for a one-bedroom suite for the three of us,with us to sleep in the bedroom and Jonathan to sleep in the pull-out in the living room. When we got there it was wall-to-wall boxes, and I could not move for all the boxes and Jonathan could not tolerate the crowded situation. Jonno asked David to get him a separate room. When David complained about the expense, Jonathan told him that a separate room for him would cost a lot less than hospitalization for him,- so David agreed to call the front desk. The fronts desk told us about exactly what I had suggested at the time David made the initial reservation,that David had said would cost too mu ch: A two-bedroom suite,, for only $20/day more. In this context David could see that we can afford it, so the woman from the front desk showed us all the place and Jonathan said "it's a deal." WE spent the night moving our stuff up from the smaller suite to the bigger one. this was a red letter day: Jonathan slept on top of the bed for the first time in years, and took a bath for the first time in days the next morning. Our cat was even cooperative with this move. We are settling in for our eight-week stay here now. 

This is my first visit to KP in days. I came back here to about page 154 with no idea what was going on just now, but I missed all of you enough to let you know where I am now.

Where's that happy dance?


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I have never pledged to ignore her. I've only said that I TRY to ignore her. Sometimes, I fail.


I was speaking in general about what many of us have said about ignoring bothersome folks like KPG. Of course, shortly after that I responded to one of her posts...


----------



## MaidInBedlam (Jul 24, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> A memory like an elephant! I thought only elephants can remember everything, but then either you make notes or one or two of the others do. You quote stuff none of us even remember, or want to . You must spend your life hovering over this thread and writing down everything you take as an insult. I would bet your name has not been mentioned for 2 or 3 months. We don't like you - that is a fact.


Maybe KPG is a closet Scientologist. They even remember all their past lives... :twisted:


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> First, I MUST KNOW what a child mining centre is.
> 
> Second, you must share your secret for resisting the urge to kill that man. As I recall, your husband had a penchant for making your life miserable in other ways, as well.


A big killer of marriages is renovating while living in the house. I think that explains enough.

Judyjudyjudy just popped into my mind. Has anyone heard from her?


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> First, I MUST KNOW what a child mining centre is.
> 
> Second, you must share your secret for resisting the urge to kill that man. As I recall, your husband had a penchant for making your life miserable in other ways, as well.


changed my mind and am sending you a p m. When I was typing the reply I had a mad moment and thought I was sending you a p m. I honestly hope no one read my reply before I deleted it.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

SQM said:


> A big killer of marriages is renovating while living in the house. I think that explains enough.
> 
> Judyjudyjudy just popped into my mind. Has anyone heard from her?


Yes, we just exchanged PMs.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Camacho said:


> Hi all,
> I'm in Maine. We are now in a two-bedroom hotel suite in Bangor. The house was set on its foundation on Thursday. We have not driven by there yet as we have been dealing over the phone and e-mail with movers and real estate issues, and unpacking our things here, and figuring out what went to the storage unit that should not have, and what came here that should have one o the storage unit.
> In all this there is excellent news about Jonathan: David had made a reservation for a one-bedroom suite for the three of us,with us to sleep in the bedroom and Jonathan to sleep in the pull-out in the living room. When we got there it was wall-to-wall boxes, and I could not move for all the boxes and Jonathan could not tolerate the crowded situation. Jonno asked David to get him a separate room. When David complained about the expense, Jonathan told him that a separate room for him would cost a lot less than hospitalization for him,- so David agreed to call the front desk. The fronts desk told us about exactly what I had suggested at the time David made the initial reservation,that David had said would cost too mu ch: A two-bedroom suite,, for only $20/day more. In this context David could see that we can afford it, so the woman from the front desk showed us all the place and Jonathan said "it's a deal." WE spent the night moving our stuff up from the smaller suite to the bigger one. this was a red letter day: Jonathan slept on top of the bed for the first time in years, and took a bath for the first time in days the next morning. Our cat was even cooperative with this move. We are settling in for our eight-week stay here now.
> 
> ...


I'm so happy for you! It sounds like Jonathan is doing do well. And that fact that he could verbalize what his needs were, speaks volumes. I'm glad that he's not resistant to the move, so you don't have to deal with that in top of everything else.

Now that the house is on it's foundation, how long will it be? I know you've told us but I've forgotten. Exciting days ahead!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> changed my mind and am sending you a p m. When I was typing the reply I had a mad moment and thought I was sending you a p m. I honestly hope no one read my reply before I deleted it.


Hey! We all want to know what a child mining centre, is. I didn't ask because Green already had. But I've been waiting to hear.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Hey! We all want to know what a child mining centre, is. I didn't ask because Green already had. But I've been waiting to hear.


That part of my message to our friend I am more than willing to share, it was the second part that I wish to keep private, for private reasons.

First, a child minding centre is where parents leave their children whilst they go to work. They pay for this service and it is not cheap. The Federal Government does subsidise the costs, more for people on lower incomes. Some mothers take their children to the centre one or two days a week even though they are not working. It gives the mum some free time away from the child and allows the child to enjoy the company of other children. They take children from six weeks to six years, after six the child will attend 'after school care' at centres located at the school or very near the school. The staff have to be trained in child care and have to have a police clearance. The centres usually open from 7.00 am to 6.00 pm and many a time when I was working I have had an urgent call from my daughter telling me that she had a meeting after work and could I pick up Josh then Josh and Connor. I knocked off at 5.00 and would sometimes get caught in peak hour traffic and just make it by the skin of my teeth before 6.00 pm. I think they would have waited until I got there but they would have had words with my daughter. I think there are some centres that open earlier and close later to cater for parents who work longer hours but I do not think they have an after hours centre anywhere that caters for mothers who work at night, ie nurses and doctors.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> =======================
> Why would anyone go to someone elses post to find information about them. Or better yet use them like you do.
> 
> Wow! she has the KP archives to check on us!Shows how smart I am. that is why she can go back months and years! To be honest, I have never used the 'archives' of any one else except two and It was to prove to someone who called me a liar that I wasn't. Hmm actually I went back to mine not hers and what she said was there Showing I was not a liar.
> ...


Designer1234
boredom and stupidity fills her life, poor thing. She keeps crying "nobody likes me" and never gets why. Glad that the likes of her are rather rare and luckily we are adult enough to deal with her. That Tootsie is a mess.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> That part of my message to our friend I am more than willing to share, it was the second part that I wish to keep private, for private reasons.
> 
> First, a child minding centre is where parents leave their children whilst they go to work. They pay for this service and it is not cheap. The Federal Government does subsidise the costs, more for people on lower incomes. Some mothers take their children to the centre one or two days a week even though they are not working. It gives the mum some free time away from the child and allows the child to enjoy the company of other children. They take children from six weeks to six years, after six the child will attend 'after school care' at centres located at the school or very near the school. The staff have to be trained in child care and have to have a police clearance. The centres usually open from 7.00 am to 6.00 pm and many a time when I was working I have had an urgent call from my daughter telling me that she had a meeting after work and could I pick up Josh then Josh and Connor. I knocked off at 5.00 and would sometimes get caught in peak hour traffic and just make it by the skin of my teeth before 6.00 pm. I think they would have waited until I got there but they would have had words with my daughter. I think there are some centres that open earlier and close later to cater for parents who work longer hours but I do not think they have an after hours centre anywhere that caters for mothers who work at night, ie nurses and doctors.


Oh! A child "minding center". I guess it was a typo, but when you'd said " child mining", I thought maybe it was something particular to Australia. Of course, we have child minding centers as well, but usually they're called "daycare centers". Thank you for clearing that up. I thought I was going to hear something new and interesting, but alas...


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> You are also amazing. I can do nothing but binge on Netflix at this point or hire others to remodel. Bright Green and Wombat are exactly what I would want in a man.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: What I would like in a man too! He would also have to have incredibly good taste and be more than able to design. :XD:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh! A child "minding center". I guess it was a typo, but when you'd said " child mining", I thought maybe it was something particular to Australia. Of course, we have child minding centers as well, but usually they're called "daycare centers". Thank you for clearing that up. I thought I was going to hear something new and interesting, but alas...


You know I did not notice that typo, just proves that this old bat really is as blind as a bat as well batty with bats in the belfry.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Green and Eve,

Although we complain now when we look back at those renovating days (Green, this may not apply to you currently), I remember feeling very motivated during the exercise. I felt most creative over that time and was particularly pleased when necessity [had to be] the mother of invention!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> You know I did not notice that typo, just proves that this old bat really is as blind as a bat as well batty with bats in the belfry.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: No Eve! Only human.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: What I would like in a man too! He would also have to have incredibly good taste and be more than able to design. :XD:


I think as we get older our requirement in men changes. Twenty five years ago if a man had knocked on my door and said "I've got a ladder, a wheelbarrow and a cordless drill", I think he would have been in with a chance. But now he would have to have a heck of a lot more, but what would he have to possess. A one ton flat top, nope I can hire that; a long reach chain say, nope I can hire that; be able to clean the gutters, nope I have a man call around just before winter every year and he charges $160 for a few hours work and I do not see him again until next year so that is a better option; so I honestly cannot think of anything. A ll I can think of is the downside. All that extra cooking, washing, running around after, ego feeding that I would have to engage in if I had a man in my life, no way I prefer it the way I am, only myself and my son to consider. I think I have struck gold.


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> You know I did not notice that typo, just proves that this old bat really is as blind as a bat as well batty with bats in the belfry.


I really didn't get, that it was a typo. So, what does that say about me? :lol:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Camacho said:


> Hi all,
> I'm in Maine. We are now in a two-bedroom hotel suite in Bangor. The house was set on its foundation on Thursday. We have not driven by there yet as we have been dealing over the phone and e-mail with movers and real estate issues, and unpacking our things here, and figuring out what went to the storage unit that should not have, and what came here that should have one o the storage unit.
> In all this there is excellent news about Jonathan: David had made a reservation for a one-bedroom suite for the three of us,with us to sleep in the bedroom and Jonathan to sleep in the pull-out in the living room. When we got there it was wall-to-wall boxes, and I could not move for all the boxes and Jonathan could not tolerate the crowded situation. Jonno asked David to get him a separate room. When David complained about the expense, Jonathan told him that a separate room for him would cost a lot less than hospitalization for him,- so David agreed to call the front desk. The fronts desk told us about exactly what I had suggested at the time David made the initial reservation,that David had said would cost too mu ch: A two-bedroom suite,, for only $20/day more. In this context David could see that we can afford it, so the woman from the front desk showed us all the place and Jonathan said "it's a deal." WE spent the night moving our stuff up from the smaller suite to the bigger one. this was a red letter day: Jonathan slept on top of the bed for the first time in years, and took a bath for the first time in days the next morning. Our cat was even cooperative with this move. We are settling in for our eight-week stay here now.
> 
> ...


Great news! Glad things are working out well.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> That part of my message to our friend I am more than willing to share, it was the second part that I wish to keep private, for private reasons.
> 
> First, a child minding centre is where parents leave their children whilst they go to work. They pay for this service and it is not cheap. The Federal Government does subsidise the costs, more for people on lower incomes. Some mothers take their children to the centre one or two days a week even though they are not working. It gives the mum some free time away from the child and allows the child to enjoy the company of other children. They take children from six weeks to six years, after six the child will attend 'after school care' at centres located at the school or very near the school. The staff have to be trained in child care and have to have a police clearance. The centres usually open from 7.00 am to 6.00 pm and many a time when I was working I have had an urgent call from my daughter telling me that she had a meeting after work and could I pick up Josh then Josh and Connor. I knocked off at 5.00 and would sometimes get caught in peak hour traffic and just make it by the skin of my teeth before 6.00 pm. I think they would have waited until I got there but they would have had words with my daughter. I think there are some centres that open earlier and close later to cater for parents who work longer hours but I do not think they have an after hours centre anywhere that caters for mothers who work at night, ie nurses and doctors.


Disturbingly similar to child care in the US. We do get a tax credit, but the out of pocket expenses are staggering. I don't know how people do it.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> You know I did not notice that typo, just proves that this old bat really is as blind as a bat as well batty with bats in the belfry.


me too - actually am am much worse than you. You remind me more of a butterfly! a wise butterfly, with beautiful wings.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I really didn't get, that it was a typo. So, what does that say about me? :lol:


I wondered what a child mining center was too. I was thinking of googling it but got busy with other stuff.


----------



## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'm so happy for you! ...
> Now that the house is on it's foundation, how long will it be? I know you've told us but I've forgotten. Exciting days ahead!


Thank you.

And thanks to DGreen.

We will be in this hotel for eight weeks after the house is set on the foundation. Counting forward eight weeks from June 11 sounds to me like August 6 or thereabouts. I am thrilled. Seeing the photos that my daughter and her father-in-law had taken brought tears to my eyes. These dreams and prayers and inspiration are becoming something everyone can see. That is awe-inspiring. We will be headed down to Searsport soon to see it for ourselves. I can hardly wait.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

SQM said:


> Bright Green - whenever The Unspeakable One appears, I always wait for your great quote - do you know to which one I am referring?


Tsk, tsk, tsk. Can you ever carry a grudge. Let it go already. It will only wear you down.


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> I see IT has dropped in to stink up the place.
> Open the windows, burn some candles, and get the air freshener.
> 
> It must be lonely or looking for attention again. Why it posts on threads where it is abhorred is beyond me. It's company is like fish. No matter how long it stays it stinks.


I just want to get this straight. When MarilynKnits speaks of taking the high road - this is what she means?


----------



## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Thar she blows! Up ,up and away!!!


This must be demonstrating the class MaryilynKnits speaks of that oozes from your group.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Designer1234
> boredom and stupidity fills her life, poor thing. She keeps crying "nobody likes me" and never gets why. Glad that the likes of her are rather rare and luckily we are adult enough to deal with her. That Tootsie is a mess.


Hey ya Huck. I don't cry 'nobody likes me.' I don't have to - y'all tell me in nearly any post you write. I understand perfectly that the Libs + regular posters on this thread cannot speak, seek nor handle the truth or facts. I certainly understand the difference.

I'm killing myself laughing at your claim you're adults here and know no boredom nor stupidity. I just ran some numbers and boy was that an eye opener to what I thought was the reality; far from it!

I like numbers, do you like numbers Huck?

Get a load of these #s:

2 - # of posts from EveMCooke in response to my post about the Texas pool party BEFORE she and then the Lib+ gang began personally insulting me

15 - # of pages written since KPG made her 1st pool party post - looks like you were all bored out of your minds until I made a post. Then you all arrived gang-style to post your attacks and ran up 15 pages right quick! What fun!

22 - # of minutes for me to do a quick study over the pertinent 15 recent pages on this thread

72 - # of posts personally insulting KPG on topic

89 - # of posts personally insulting KPG - on/off topic

142 - # of days since KPG last posted on the Things Are Heating Up thread

145 - the total number of all posts with substantive text (not including KPG's posts, emoticons, similes, etc.) over recent 15 pages

- calculated results

4.73 - number of *months* since KPG last posted on the Things Are Heating Up thread

50% - of the time on topic posts included insults to KPG

123% - of the time on/off topic posts included insults to KPG

-------------

So, here's my conclusion. I don't have the time nor interest to read the stupidity and hate that fills this thread as evidenced by me NOT posting on this thread for nearly 5 months. (I read only a few pages before I posted).

I like facts, unfortunately that's a dirty word to the Libs/regulars here. In FACT, it has been nearly 5 *months* since I even bothered to post on this thread yet you and others claim I spend all my time reading, posting and researching KP. Hilarious!

This thread is still active yet it wasn't until I posted that the Libs/regs piled on to add their insults as you all can barely write a post to someone without insults if a poster doesn't agree with your opinions or views.

In conclusion I'd say you must look to yourself and your Liberal gang to recognize who is bored, stupid and spending their time on KP and saying nearly nothing of value. Only when an opposing view is posted do the claws come out by the Lib/+ gang and the insults fly more than 100%+ of the time regardless of topic. That's concerning but what my simple #'s showed me.

OH! I almost forgot! I'm NEVER bored. I have so much work, creative things to do, people to meet/greet, parties, political work and rallies, family to care for, remodeling planning for our home presently (just met with the architect again today - yeah!), traveling, Church, charitable buz, sporting events, entertainment to host/attend, etc., I'm never bored. I'm blessed, haven't you read?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I think as we get older our requirement in men changes. Twenty five years ago if a man had knocked on my door and said "I've got a ladder, a wheelbarrow and a cordless drill", I think he would have been in with a chance. But now he would have to have a heck of a lot more, but what would he have to possess. A one ton flat top, nope I can hire that; a long reach chain say, nope I can hire that; be able to clean the gutters, nope I have a man call around just before winter every year and he charges $160 for a few hours work and I do not see him again until next year so that is a better option; so I honestly cannot think of anything. A ll I can think of is the downside. All that extra cooking, washing, running around after, ego feeding that I would have to engage in if I had a man in my life, no way I prefer it the way I am, only myself and my son to consider. I think I have struck gold.


Good for you! I feel the same in so many ways but I'm not completely off the 'market.' I'm not looking but I will one day. As long as I don't have to cohabit, that would be a good start!


----------



## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Camacho said:


> Thank you.
> 
> And thanks to DGreen.
> 
> We will be in this hotel for eight weeks after the house is set on the foundation. Counting forward eight weeks from June 11 sounds to me like August 6 or thereabouts. I am thrilled. Seeing the photos that my daughter and her father-in-law had taken brought tears to my eyes. These dreams and prayers and inspiration are becoming something everyone can see. That is awe-inspiring. We will be headed down to Searsport soon to see it for ourselves. I can hardly wait.


What happened to the cabin you were going to rent?


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Unpleasant occurrence in Texas today. Karma maybe?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/06/13/dallas-police-shooting/71166038/


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

"Prosperity can't be just for CEOs and hedge fund managers; democracy can't be just for billionaires and corporations," - Hillary Clinton.

Great speech and great message.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33122234


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> Tsk, tsk, tsk. Can you ever carry a grudge. Let it go already. It will only wear you down.


"Let it go?" Uh, no. They are _frozen_ in nothing but grudges, oneupidiotship and insults galore. :-D

I do hear the cold is good for keeping the skin firm though.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> I just want to get this straight. When MarilynKnits speaks of taking the high road - this is what she means?


Oh, no. When Marilyn takes the high road, she slides down really fast while hurling insults on her way down. I think she mentioned she goes headfirst. You know, like comparing people to the Herpes virus, as she did me, that sort of thing. Real classy.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> "Prosperity can't be just for CEOs and hedge fund managers; democracy can't be just for billionaires and corporations," - Hillary Clinton.
> 
> Great speech and great message.
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33122234


You do know that Hillary's approval ratings have slipped big time after so many of her scandals and is hovering with people NOT approving of her more than 50%?

Also, Hillary is the one person who has taken the most more from hedge-fund managers, investors and Wall Street and KStreet. What Hill meant in her prosperity quote above; it also must include 'her.'


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

The following story made me feel so sad. I think we're only seeing the very tip of the FIFA scandal and if this story is any indication, we're in for an enormous shock:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3121989/Widow-murdered-2010-South-Africa-Fifa-World-Cup-whistle-blower-Jimmy-Mohlala-says-husband-alive-today-hadn-t-exposed-multimillion-dollar-stadium-fraud.html


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

"the insults fly more than 100%+ of the time "

Someone needs to review their math. There can never be more than 100% of "the time."


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Hey ya Huck. I don't cry 'nobody likes me.' I don't have to - y'all tell me in nearly any post you write. I understand perfectly that the Libs + regular posters on this thread cannot speak, seek nor handle the truth or facts. I certainly understand the difference.
> 
> I'm killing myself laughing at your claim you're adults here and know no boredom nor stupidity. I just ran some numbers and boy was that an eye opener to what I thought was the reality; far from it!
> 
> ...


knitpresentgifts
I see you fill your boredom with doing boring stuff. Who in the dickens keeps track of stuff as you do? No-one in their right mind. Thank you for validating my points. You certainly have a pitiful existence. While you are speaking of improvements, your backyard is in need of attention.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

DGreen said:


> "the insults fly more than 100%+ of the time "
> 
> Someone needs to review their math. There can never be more than 100% of "the time."


Ask an accountant to explain it to you. I cannot be bothered with your inabilities.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You do know that Hillary's approval ratings have slipped big time after so many of her scandals and is hovering with people NOT approving of her more than 50%?
> 
> Also, Hillary is the one person who has taken the most more from hedge-fund managers, investors and Wall Street and KStreet. What Hill meant in her prosperity quote above; it also must include 'her.'


knitpresentgifts
you wish there were scandals, don't you. Sorry to disappoint you big time.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Ask an accountant to explain it to you. I cannot be bothered with your inabilities.


knitpresentgifts
I am so sorry that your abilities are at a very low mark.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

My Fellow Americans, Hillary is on solid footing and that makes the hateful attacks start rolling in shortly.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You do know that Hillary's approval ratings have slipped big time after so many of her scandals and is hovering with people NOT approving of her more than 50%?
> 
> Also, Hillary is the one person who has taken the most more from hedge-fund managers, investors and Wall Street and KStreet. What Hill meant in her prosperity quote above; it also must include 'her.'


What I do know is that Hillary Clinton is a better candidate for the presidency than the thousands of republican candidates out there put together.

Approval ratings rise and fall in any election campaign. I wouldn't be so sure if I were you.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> My Fellow Americans, Hillary is on solid footing and that makes the hateful attacks start rolling in shortly.


That's right Huck. She must be doing well to attract the predictable lament of the repubs.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Ask an accountant to explain it to you. I cannot be bothered with your inabilities.


digging in deeper, KPG. You're dead wrong on this one though sometimes I wish you were right so I could have a 30-hour day.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> What I do know is that Hillary Clinton is a better candidate for the presidency than the thousands of republican candidates out there put together.
> 
> Approval ratings rise and fall in any election campaign. I wouldn't be so sure if I were you.


Go back to the drawing board and learn the facts before posting your exaggerations. To date, I cannot count more than 15 official and no more than 20 or so probable Republican candidates running for the office of the Presidency.

What can you tell me in your opinion makes Hillary a better candidate than the Reps combined?

I didn't claim to be sure of anything; you really should focus on the facts and words if you want your posts to be appear coherent.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> That's right Huck. She must be doing well to attract the predictable lament of the repubs.


Ha! She lost ten points in her approval rating in the past few days!!!! And guess who is turning away from her - her base - the DEMOCRATS!!!!!!!

Hint: don't look to Huck for ANY truth or facts


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

DGreen said:


> digging in deeper, KPG. You're dead wrong on this one though sometimes I wish you were right so I could have a 30-hour day.


Keep digging Green, some day you'll figure it out - maybe.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Hillary is much too right-leaning and too cozy with Wall Street for my taste. Seems lots of people are looking for an alternative to republican inaction and centrist democrats with no stomach for a fight. I am hoping to see Bernie Sanders' campaign gain steam (as it seems to be doing) because he's truly liberal. The right-wing has pulled the discussion so far to the extreme that centrist/moderate liberals are now called radicals. I'm all for a dose of Bernie Sanders' brand of true liberalism - even socialism. As for the republicans, I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for any of them. Each republican candidate is trying to outdo each other to appeal to fundamentalist Christian extremists but none are talking about solving problems unless it has to do with their perception of the legitimate use of a woman's vagina or whether the earth is 6000 years old. None of them can be taken seriously because none of them have solutions except to cut Medicare and Social Security or go to war. Okay with me if Hillary loses to a true liberal.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Keep digging Green, some day you'll figure it out - maybe.


If your understanding of percentages is representative of your understanding of other "facts," that explains a lot about your mental capacity. Perhaps you would like to put out a call for help in solving this math problem.

I have to add:

Instead of taking a look at your own original post and my response to figure out why I spotted a problem with your math, you immediately went on the offensive. You could have just as easily said, "I don't understand your point" or "Please explain what is wrong with that statement." Instead, you simply assumed you were 100% correct and I was an idiot.

Which demonstrates perfectly why you are detested here. Your friends over on the D&P thread might be in awe of your self-professed superiority, but we are intelligent beings on THIS thread. We truly DO disagree and still remain friends. Of course, your "research" into our conversations was restricted to only things that pertained to yourself and to support your opinions so you missed that very obvious truth.

You are wrong about the math problem. I'll wait for the light to dawn and for you to give up on being "right" on that one. I don't expect an acknowledgement, of course.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Keep digging Green, some day you'll figure it out - maybe.


knitpresentgifts
why are you so eager to look so dumb?


----------



## Camacho (Feb 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> What happened to the cabin you were going to rent?


Aah...The woman who keeps an eye on the cottage read what I had been looking for and called me to ask me if the cottage would really be suitable for my family. So she also decided she wanted to talk with my DH. David insisted on finding a hotel for us that would be pet-friendly, handicap-accessible, and have a kitchenette in the room before calling her back. When she called she described the place as an _old_ Maine camp, with narrow clearance around the water heater to get into the bathroom. David told her that my walker is 20" wide and asked her how much clearance there was. She called back a little bit later and said, "Twenty inches." That decided it, and we got all our money back on the cottages, and realized that the hotel suite also has laundry facilities on the premises, a heated indoor pool, and free breakfast, making the price very competitive. He reserved a one-bedroom suite for us, on the grounds that there was a pull-out sofa bed in the living room that Jonathan could sleep in,and he was afraid the two-bedroom suite would cost too much. Hah! We are now in the two-bedroom suite and enjoying it very much.
Thanks for asking, Nan.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Huckleberry said:


> knitpresentgifts
> why are you so eager to look so dumb?


(Whispering) Because she cannot even consider the possibility that she's wrong. It's a mental thing with control freaks and narcissists.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

DGreen said:


> If your understanding of percentages is representative of your understanding of other "facts," that explains a lot about your mental capacity. Perhaps you would like to put out a call for help in solving this math problem.
> 
> I have to add:
> 
> ...


Oh, you're so funny Green. I understood your point and further understand the math problem I wrote. I don't have any problems with math; you do. You have proven again and again you cannot understand the facts in evidence and are horrible with numbers. A perfect recent example is you cannot see the forest for the trees on the pool party fiasco in Texas. (let's stick to the math problem though)

Do you honestly think after the way you've spoken and posted to and about me, I'm going to offer you a hand?

Here's a complimentary suggestion for you so you don't drive yourself more crazy over simple percentages and a math problem. Ask Huckleberry - she claims to know everything.

If you truly wanted a conversation with me, you should first go
back and reread YOUR unsolicited comments to me. (I'm talking about recent posts (two days) - not going back over the past year) You didn't politely ask or speak kindly to me - you TOLD me in ugly words and insults and just repeated more of them: "I have a problem with math" and "I'm wrong on the math problem", "... that explains a lot about your mental capacity," "... perhaps you might like to put out a call for help."

Do you ever stop running your mouth and LISTEN to yourself?

You are so full of yourself you don't even know WHAT you say in your eagerness to stomp on me.

I could teach you a thing of two about lot of things where I knowledgable, but I know lots of KPers who are not even willing to speak to you (including some KP Libs) because of your nastiness, aggressiveness and attitude. Maybe you should ponder that instead of once again telling me what's wrong with me.

I do marvel how you claim to know so much about me when you know NOTHING about me, other than what I've posted which you cannot reiterate accurately, and cannot comprehend simple words and math problems in front of you. When I write on KP I KISS it and still it goes over most of the Lib's heads.

Now, back to your post;

How smart do you look when you pounce to tell me my 'research' only pertained to me and misses the obvious truths?

NEWS FLASH: The PURPOSE of the quick research; to count the UNSOLICITED INSULTS to ME. You completely MISSED the FACTS that listed TOTAL counts, (that MEANS everything whether or not it pertains to me) and the *explicit* FACTS I gave of "ON TOPIC" and "OFF TOPIC" and what was INCLUDED and NOT in the counts. I couldn't have laid out my numbers any more simply and STILL you didn't understand what I wrote.

Therefore, I told you to ask an accountant.

I'll repeat to you your recent words to me that you MAKE NO SENSE and are TOTALLY ILLOGICAL. Frankly, I've never encountered so many ignorant people in my life thus far as I have on this thread. I gave everyone the benefit of the doubt and more credit than each has proven to deserve from my observations. In just over two years I guess since I joined KP, I've never seen such vitriol and anger and downright disgusting treatment from ONLY Libs to other KPers and me especially.

btw; Do you ever wonder why barely a soul posts to 'you' Libs EXCEPT for other Libs and KFN? Give that a few minutes of thought rather than doing your best to stomp and bash me again for NO REASON. The ONLY reason any of you respond to me is to feed your egotistical desire to lash out and attempt to get a piece of me. YOU FAIL - all of you - (even when coming at me gang style) every.single.time.

Then, after you fail, ya'll go down the route of trying to get my friends on KP to either agree with you or speak out against me (as you've done above too). Well, you all lose on that game too, every.single.time.

I've suggested many a time for you all to give up, many have vowed to do just that (individual's idea - not mine) and some even took a pledg to ignore me, (how stupid that was) yet I cannot think of many who successfully ignore me. It's in your DNA to act as you all do. I can guess as to where all the anger, ugliness and viciousness comes from, but I'll keep it to myself.

- - - - - - - -
So, here's me, once again, willing to speak without malice or the intent to insult you:

I believe I can now safely state you have no idea how to solve math problems or work with percentages. If you do please, here's a way to prove you can solve more complex math word and percentage problems.

Please explain to me how if you have an amortized mortgage with an interest rate of say 8% you could prepay that mortgage and save the majority of the hundreds of thousands of dollars you agreed to pay the lien holder AND earn the same 8% for YOURSELF while paying down said mortgage. I've done it multiple times and am paid as a professional for my knowledge. I know the answer to my own math problems posted.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Hillary is much too right-leaning and too cozy with Wall Street for my taste. Seems lots of people are looking for an alternative to republican inaction and centrist democrats with no stomach for a fight. I am hoping to see Bernie Sanders' campaign gain steam (as it seems to be doing) because he's truly liberal. The right-wing has pulled the discussion so far to the extreme that centrist/moderate liberals are now called radicals. I'm all for a dose of Bernie Sanders' brand of true liberalism - even socialism. As for the republicans, I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for any of them. Each republican candidate is trying to outdo each other to appeal to fundamentalist Christian extremists but none are talking about solving problems unless it has to do with their perception of the legitimate use of a woman's vagina or whether the earth is 6000 years old. None of them can be taken seriously because none of them have solutions except to cut Medicare and Social Security or go to war. Okay with me if Hillary loses to a true liberal.


I too admire Bernie Sanders but as with all things logical, they never are. Bernie Sanders is more than a credible contender but he probably intimidates the less than informed of the democratic voters. Hillary is sitting in the middle but even still, she has more substance and commitment than all of the repub candidates. Bernie Sanders squashes them.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Oh, you're so funny Green. I don't have any problems with math; you do. You have proven again and again you cannot understand the facts and evidence put in front of you. Perfect recent example is you cannot see the forest for the trees on the pool party fiasco in Texas.
> 
> Do you honestly think after the way you've spoken and posted to and about me, I'm going to offer you a hand?
> 
> ...


Green is right. It's all about you isn't it?


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> Tsk, tsk, tsk. Can you ever carry a grudge. Let it go already. It will only wear you down.


Of course your advice is sound but I do not think of her unless she appears. Actually, I enjoy her visits. She stirs my blood and gets me ready for action. Hope this finds you and yours well.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Of course your advice is sound but I do not think of her unless she appears. Actually, I enjoy her visits. She stirs my blood and gets me ready for action. Hope this finds you and yours well.


I wait with baited breath!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Do you honestly think after the way you've spoken and posted to and about me, I'm going to offer you a hand?


I already understand percentages so I won't be asking you for a hand with math. You obviously still don't understand why your statement was wrong and don't appear to be interested in finding out what that was.

I won't be looking to you for advice on mortgages, either.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> "Let it go?" Uh, no. They are _frozen_ in nothing but grudges, oneupidiotship and insults galore. :-D
> 
> I do hear the cold is good for keeping the skin firm though.


You are a dope.


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

Comrades, do I have to get stern with you? You're giving it the oxygen of publicity (to quote the vile Thatcher). Stop it now, or I will have to start using UPPER CASE, and nobody wants that. There are few things more upsetting than being ignored.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> You are a dope.


And a blaggard!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

aw9358 said:


> Comrades, do I have to get stern with you? You're giving it the oxygen of publicity (to quote the vile Thatcher). Stop it now, or I will have to start using UPPER CASE, and nobody wants that. There are few things more upsetting than being ignored.


Aw, c'mon. This is fun!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Hillary is much too right-leaning and too cozy with Wall Street for my taste. Seems lots of people are looking for an alternative to republican inaction and centrist democrats with no stomach for a fight. I am hoping to see Bernie Sanders' campaign gain steam (as it seems to be doing) because he's truly liberal. The right-wing has pulled the discussion so far to the extreme that centrist/moderate liberals are now called radicals. I'm all for a dose of Bernie Sanders' brand of true liberalism - even socialism. As for the republicans, I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for any of them. Each republican candidate is trying to outdo each other to appeal to fundamentalist Christian extremists but none are talking about solving problems unless it has to do with their perception of the legitimate use of a woman's vagina or whether the earth is 6000 years old. None of them can be taken seriously because none of them have solutions except to cut Medicare and Social Security or go to war. Okay with me if Hillary loses to a true liberal.


Totally agree, Bright. Even my Evil Republican Twin is dismayed with the Republican choices. I like Hills a bit better because she was on Roosevelt Island today, my past neighborhood. But otherwise, she is too close to Wall Street for my taste. Sanders will never make it because he is in no one's pocket and is Jewish. Quelle dommage.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> Comrades, do I have to get stern with you? You're giving it the oxygen of publicity (to quote the vile Thatcher). Stop it now, or I will have to start using UPPER CASE, and nobody wants that. There are few things more upsetting than being ignored.


But aw, tried ignoring and nothing changed!


----------



## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

No, it's so annoying when nobody responds. It's classic child training. Please give it a try. I'm speaking from bitter experience. I know it's an itch that you desperately want to scratch, but think of the satisfaction.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

aw9358 said:


> Comrades, do I have to get stern with you? You're giving it the oxygen of publicity (to quote the vile Thatcher). Stop it now, or I will have to start using UPPER CASE, and nobody wants that. There are few things more upsetting than being ignored.


yeah Aw. She is fun. Let us have a few minutes of fun. All I have to say is "Let's visit DP" and POOF she is gone. So I won't even mention it.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

SQM said:


> Totally agree, Bright. Even my Evil Republican Twin is dismayed with the Republican choices. I like Hills a bit better because she was on Roosevelt Island today, my past neighborhood. But otherwise, she is too close to Wall Street for my taste. Sanders will never make it because he is in no one's pocket and is Jewish. Quelle dommage.


I've been pleasantly surprised at the support Bernie has been getting. Who knows? Maybe he has a real chance. I will vote for Hillary over ANY republican, though.

Of course, I find it hard to imagine why anyone would object to a Jewish candidate. As a matter of fact, I would prefer to vote for one whose faith does not call for winning converts all the time and who leaves religion where it belongs - out of politics.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Green is right. It's all about you isn't it?


You're hopeless.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I already understand percentages so I won't be asking you for a hand with math. You obviously still don't understand why your statement was wrong and don't appear to be interested in finding out what that was.
> 
> I won't be looking to you for advice on mortgages, either.


Expected and typical because you DON'T know the answers - any of them - so you blame me, the messenger, and the person who DOES know the correct answers.

Have a nice life and good luck - you need it.

My statements were not wrong, and I didn't offer or suggest you ask my advice on mortgages.

You cannot understand a darn thing.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

DGreen said:


> I've been pleasantly surprised at the support Bernie has been getting. Who knows? Maybe he has a real chance. I will vote for Hillary over ANY republican, though.
> 
> Of course, I find it hard to imagine why anyone would object to a Jewish candidate. As a matter of fact, I would prefer to vote for one whose faith does not call for winning converts all the time and who leaves religion where it belongs - out of politics.


Tres vrai, tres vrai.

Religion is all over politics in Israel.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> Comrades, do I have to get stern with you? You're giving it the oxygen of publicity (to quote the vile Thatcher). Stop it now, or I will have to start using UPPER CASE, and nobody wants that. There are few things more upsetting than being ignored.


Their word means nothing. They have no ability to control their minds, anger and possess no willpower.

I've ignored them for months, some for a year or more. They hate being ignored but cannot ignore me. They all say they hate me and yet jump at every opportunity to respond to me.

If that doesn't beat all! :-D It's hilarious but also boring.


----------



## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Hey ya Huck. I don't cry 'nobody likes me.' I don't have to - y'all tell me in nearly any post you write. I understand perfectly that the Libs + regular posters on this thread cannot speak, seek nor handle the truth or facts. I certainly understand the difference.
> 
> I'm killing myself laughing at your claim you're adults here and know no boredom nor stupidity. I just ran some numbers and boy was that an eye opener to what I thought was the reality; far from it!
> 
> ...


Here's MY personal conclusion: you have way too much time on your hands, lady.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: We could visit, but then poor old admin would be pummeled with reports as usual and they'll tell everyone to back off and blah, blah, blah!


And it is just two escapees who have paid unwelcome visits recently. I can't see giving the rest of the sycophants reason to commiserate with the Q of the D as to how mean everybody is to her. Even when she brings it on herself. She is apparently trying to goad people to retaliate which will give her fuel for her dastardly plots. She can continue to twist in the wind.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Just Beachy said:


> I agree with you, I don't think those times were more moral, if anything, true immorality was accepted, while foolish things like "sex before marriage" were deemed immoral. IMO, our priorities were extremely messed up.
> 
> What's happening now is a fight to return to petty morality and to resist REAL morality.


Part of it too, was that unexpected pregnancy was kept a secret. Looking back we were very innocent of what was really happening until it happened to my sister. My parents would not allow anyone to know, even my Aunts who lived in the same city. No one really discussed the fact that anyone was intimate. We all knew if but we never mentioned it.

It was weird but didn't seem so at the time. I would think that people weren't really 'looking' for people to gossip about. More innocent. Too innocent, actually, as families kept dreadful secrets as public opinion was more important than anyone. I think that is why I made up my mind I wouldn't live my life worrying about what others thought.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Just Beachy said:


> I can't get over the poster who said it wasn't about racism.
> 
> First of all, from what I read, it was only a few 'extra' partiers.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Hey! We all want to know what a child mining centre, is. I didn't ask because Green already had. But I've been waiting to hear.


And here we thought the children were apprenticing to the Seven Dwarfs!


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> And it is just two escapees who have paid unwelcome visits recently. I can't see giving the rest of the sycophants reason to commiserate with the Q of the D as to how mean everybody is to her. Even when she brings it on herself. She is apparently trying to goad people to retaliate which will give her fuel for her dastardly plots. She can continue to twist in the wind.


I guess I am once again the different one. Only about 5 or 6 over the years from there have posted here. The largest majority of those of the D & P thread have not joined in the nastiness. 
I doubt that some of them really believe all the things said by a few of them. A lot of them don't even join in at all.

They likely agree with most of it but they don't join in. So to visit and try deliberately to upset them all, to me is foolish. Nobody wins - certainly we don't. I have said this over and over, but I still feel that way. We have proven that we don't go there and attack (I hope) when they leave us alone.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Camacho said:


> Aah...The woman who keeps an eye on the cottage read what I had been looking for and called me to ask me if the cottage would really be suitable for my family. So she also decided she wanted to talk with my DH. David insisted on finding a hotel for us that would be pet-friendly, handicap-accessible, and have a kitchenette in the room before calling her back. When she called she described the place as an _old_ Maine camp, with narrow clearance around the water heater to get into the bathroom. David told her that my walker is 20" wide and asked her how much clearance there was. She called back a little bit later and said, "Twenty inches." That decided it, and we got all our money back on the cottages, and realized that the hotel suite also has laundry facilities on the premises, a heated indoor pool, and free breakfast, making the price very competitive. He reserved a one-bedroom suite for us, on the grounds that there was a pull-out sofa bed in the living room that Jonathan could sleep in,and he was afraid the two-bedroom suite would cost too much. Hah! We are now in the two-bedroom suite and enjoying it very much.
> Thanks for asking, Nan.


Glad you made the wise and comfortable choice. We don't travel except than we must for family gatherings any more. but when we did, we found we were better off in a more commercial and impersonal venue rather than something run by a person who might tend to be intrusive in our personal space. Hope things continue to go on schedule and all is lovely for you and your fellas.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

She's here with Solo because neither one of them can survive without conflict. Maybe a visit from us to D&P will shut their grossly over sized pie holes.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Expected and typical because you DON'T know the answers - any of them - so you blame me, the messenger, and the person who DOES know the correct answers.
> 
> Have a nice life and good luck - you need it.
> 
> ...


It's hilarious that you think that nobody comprehends what you are saying when most of the time you are dead wrong. If people don't comprehend your ranting and babbling, take a better look at what you are writing.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Their word means nothing. They have no ability to control their minds, anger and possess no willpower.
> 
> I've ignored them for months, some for a year or more. They hate being ignored but cannot ignore me. They all say they hate me and yet jump at every opportunity to respond to me.
> 
> If that doesn't beat all! :-D It's hilarious but also boring.


Nobody came looking for you. Is that what is bothering you? 
*You* came to us. Our lives and conversations go on just fine without you. That really gets under your skin, doesn't it?

:XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Fool.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Hey ya Huck. I don't cry 'nobody likes me.' I don't have to - y'all tell me in nearly any post you write. I understand perfectly that the Libs + regular posters on this thread cannot speak, seek nor handle the truth or facts. I certainly understand the difference.
> 
> I'm killing myself laughing at your claim you're adults here and know no boredom nor stupidity. I just ran some numbers and boy was that an eye opener to what I thought was the reality; far from it!
> 
> ...


 I call BS baby cakes. You just demonstrated all the above.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Green is right. It's all about you isn't it?


She only wishes it were. She spouts nothing.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Part of it too, was that unexpected pregnancy was kept a secret. Looking back we were very innocent of what was really happening until it happened to my sister. My parents would not allow anyone to know, even my Aunts who lived in the same city. No one really discussed the fact that anyone was intimate. We all knew if but we never mentioned it.
> 
> It was weird but didn't seem so at the time. I would think that people weren't really 'looking' for people to gossip about. More innocent. Too innocent, actually, as families kept dreadful secrets as public opinion was more important than anyone. I think that is why I made up my mind I wouldn't live my life worrying about what others thought.


Talk about family secrets - I was 35 years old before I found out my favorite uncle had been divorced from a woman who left him for another man taking my cousin with her. Cousin and I were each under 2 years old when it happened.

An acquaintance asked me if my name was what turned out to be my cousin's name. I mentioned to my mother that I must have a look alike named that name, and told her the circumstances where this lady had seen my doppelganger. Dead silence, then Mother told me the whole sordid story. I am sure my cousin was never told.

My uncle had remarried and had two other daughters, neither of whom wanted anything to do with their half sister. I know where she is and her married name, but not my place to cause any aggravation for the cousins I grew up with.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

GWPlver said:


> She only wishes it were. She spouts nothing.


Hi Panda,

Panda makes her magic appearances when things get hot. Glad to see ya.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> "the insults fly more than 100%+ of the time "
> 
> Someone needs to review their math. There can never be more than 100% of "the time."


But there must be more than 100%. How else could someone have time to do all the exciting, heartwarming, charitable things she does and still have time to read and count up all those messages and compute all those numbers? AND know exactly what happened at the Texas pool party (was she actually a witness, as her message implies?), know that everyone else here had it wrong, and write long, long repetitious posts setting us all straight.

I guess it's quantum physics. I never could get that straight.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Uh huh. And you are here because...????


Oooh...let me answer!!! Because she had to lay low for awhile and now she just can't stand not being front and center. But, as usual, she is misinformed and spouting crap. She had to post niceties in other threads to prove she was okay but she is back! How sad for her peeps to take up for her. I guess they drank her kool aid.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> But there must be more than 100%. How else could someone have time to do all the exciting, heartwarming, charitable things she does and still have time to read and count up all those messages and compute all those numbers? AND know exactly what happened at the Texas pool party (was she actually a witness, as her message implies?), know that everyone else here had it wrong, and write long, long repetitious posts setting us all straight.
> 
> I guess it's quantum physics. I never could get that straight.


Indeed, and still have time to knit all those marvy presents and gifts. Redundant, but oh well.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Poor Purl said:


> But there must be more than 100%. How else could someone have time to do all the exciting, heartwarming, charitable things she does and still have time to read and count up all those messages and compute all those numbers? AND know exactly what happened at the Texas pool party (was she actually a witness, as her message implies?), know that everyone else here had it wrong, and write long, long repetitious posts setting us all straight.
> 
> I guess it's quantum physics. I never could get that straight.


 It is all el torro poo poo!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> But there must be more than 100%. How else could someone have time to do all the exciting, heartwarming, charitable things she does and still have time to read and count up all those messages and compute all those numbers? AND know exactly what happened at the Texas pool party (was she actually a witness, as her message implies?), know that everyone else here had it wrong, and write long, long repetitious posts setting us all straight.
> 
> I guess it's quantum physics. I never could get that straight.


Hi PP.

You just gave me a chortle. She is gone. Two threats to visit D and P and your witty comment will have her jumpin' over the fence. Bye Gifts. See ya in 5 months or more, hopefully.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> Hi PP.
> 
> You just gave me a chortle. She is gone. Two threats to visit D and P and your witty comment will have her jumpin' over the fence. Bye Gifts. See ya in 5 months or more, hopefully.


Hell, SQ let's shoot for a year!!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> Oooh...let me answer!!! Because she had to lay low for awhile and now she just can't stand not being front and center. But, as usual, she is misinformed and spouting crap. She had to post niceties in other threads to prove she was okay but she is back! How sad for her peeps to take up for her. I guess they drank her kool aid.


Funny thing is that all of it's "new" friends are reading this stuff right now.
It's plain to see what it is really like. Solow is the only on efollowing it around.
Where are the rest of it's friends?


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

SQM said:


> Hi Panda,
> 
> Panda makes her magic appearances when things get hot. Glad to see ya.


Hi Sqm! We got a new puppy - 9 week old German Wire Hair. Husband drove to Pittsburgh to pick her up and bring her home. It's a special breed. And she is an handful!!! Home to win some trials with her. We have an 8 year old and a 13 year GWH so it has been interesting integrating her into the household.

I would like to make my magic appearances more often!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> First, I MUST KNOW what a child mining centre is.


Well, you know about those Australian animals that carry their young in pouches, the egg-laying mammals, etc.? Procreation is obviously very different in that part of the world. Mining for children is just another part of it.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Just Beachy said:


> I can't get over the poster who said it wasn't about racism.
> 
> First of all, from what I read, it was only a few 'extra' partiers actually trying to get in the pool area. There were a lot of kids in the park (which was only feet away), but only a couple of kids actually trying to scale the fence.
> 
> ...


Exactly.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Hell, SQ let's shoot for a year!!


I don't carry but I still have my skates and will be glad to skate over to another land should we get bothered again.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> And it is just two escapees who have paid unwelcome visits recently. I can't see giving the rest of the sycophants reason to commiserate with the Q of the D as to how mean everybody is to her. Even when she brings it on herself. She is apparently trying to goad people to retaliate which will give her fuel for her dastardly plots. She can continue to twist in the wind.


We've seen it all before haven't we so it's nothing new. I don't know why returning seems like a good thing to her.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Funny thing is that all of it's "new" friends are reading this stuff right now.
> It's plain to see what it is really like. Solow is the only one trailing her around.
> Where are the rest of her friends?


Pretty sure her new friends are intelligent enough to figure it out.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> She's here with Solo because neither one of them can survive without conflict. Maybe a visit from us to D&P will shut their grossly over sized pie holes.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: I can always count on you Brat for a tear inducing laugh!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

GWPlver said:


> She only wishes it were. She spouts nothing.


You make no sense.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You make no sense.


What??? I am your side!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Camacho said:


> Hi all,
> I'm in Maine. We are now in a two-bedroom hotel suite in Bangor. The house was set on its foundation on Thursday. We have not driven by there yet as we have been dealing over the phone and e-mail with movers and real estate issues, and unpacking our things here, and figuring out what went to the storage unit that should not have, and what came here that should have one o the storage unit.
> In all this there is excellent news about Jonathan: David had made a reservation for a one-bedroom suite for the three of us,with us to sleep in the bedroom and Jonathan to sleep in the pull-out in the living room. When we got there it was wall-to-wall boxes, and I could not move for all the boxes and Jonathan could not tolerate the crowded situation. Jonno asked David to get him a separate room. When David complained about the expense, Jonathan told him that a separate room for him would cost a lot less than hospitalization for him,- so David agreed to call the front desk. The fronts desk told us about exactly what I had suggested at the time David made the initial reservation,that David had said would cost too mu ch: A two-bedroom suite,, for only $20/day more. In this context David could see that we can afford it, so the woman from the front desk showed us all the place and Jonathan said "it's a deal." WE spent the night moving our stuff up from the smaller suite to the bigger one. this was a red letter day: Jonathan slept on top of the bed for the first time in years, and took a bath for the first time in days the next morning. Our cat was even cooperative with this move. We are settling in for our eight-week stay here now.
> 
> ...


So far, things are still working out. (I hope I'm not jinxing you by saying that in public.)

Jonathan sounds like a very logical person. He's going to turn out to be more helpful than you thought.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Mazel tov Panda. 

I think my cat is not well. If she goes to the other side, I am debated whether to get another one. I may be too old to start again with a cat. I suppose by looking at your avatar that you are a young and spry Panda.

Green - she is on our side. Pandas rule!


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

GWPlver said:


> What??? I am your side!


Sorry - I misread the first time.


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> Oooh...let me answer!!! Because she had to lay low for awhile and now she just can't stand not being front and center. But, as usual, she is misinformed and spouting crap. She had to post niceties in other threads to prove she was okay but she is back! How sad for her peeps to take up for her. I guess they drank her kool aid.


How right you are!!


----------



## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> We've seen it all before haven't we so it's nothing new. I don't know why returning seems like a good thing to her.


It's that over blown ego of It's that must have made it think we love and miss it. Pfffffffffffttt!
It must be so disappointed to see that it was wrong.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> so you blame me, the messenger, and the person who DOES know the correct answers.
> quote]
> 
> That's quite a claim, KPG.
> ...


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> It's that over blown ego of IT's that must have made it think we love and miss it. Pfffffffffffttt!
> IT must be so disappointed


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: Love it! Pffffffffttt!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Mazel tov Panda.
> 
> I think my cat is not well. If she goes to the other side, I am debated whether to get another one. I may be too old to start again with a cat. I suppose by looking at your avatar that you are a young and spry Panda.
> 
> Green - she is on our side. Pandas rule!


Has The Dove relapsed? I don't think you're too old to get another cat. They're so easy. I'd get one if I was in a place of my own.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

SQM said:


> Mazel tov Panda.
> 
> I think my cat is not well. If she goes to the other side, I am debated whether to get another one. I may be too old to start again with a cat. I suppose by looking at your avatar that you are a young and spry Panda.


Actually, I am not - in my 50's. Most likely, last puppy we will have and it saddens me to think this way. When I retire, I hope to train dogs at the shelters so they will be adoptable. Hubs and I are trainers and I hope to become a dog massage therapist. I think animals of all kinds are a gift.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> But there must be more than 100%. How else could someone have time to do all the exciting, heartwarming, charitable things she does and still have time to read and count up all those messages and compute all those numbers? AND know exactly what happened at the Texas pool party (was she actually a witness, as her message implies?), know that everyone else here had it wrong, and write long, long repetitious posts setting us all straight.
> 
> I guess it's quantum physics. I never could get that straight.


As always, we can count on Purl to offer a rational explanation.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> Actually, I am not - in my 50's. Most likely, last puppy we will have and it saddens me to think this way. When I retire, I hope to train dogs at the shelters so they will be adoptable. Hubs and I are trainers and I hope to become a dog massage therapist. I think animals of all kinds are a gift.


GW, repeat after me, "I am spry BECAUSE I'm in my 50s."


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

No problem! Thanks for responding.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> I just want to get this straight. When MarilynKnits speaks of taking the high road - this is what she means?


Tell me something: when someone you'd rather not hear from drops in to set you straight on an incident and says she knows ALL about it while you know nothing, would you react any better?

Her telling all of us "the truth" while insulting us doesn't deserve any other response. It's like when you told us all about the GDP being 2%. Should we take your word for it?


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> GW, repeat after me, "I am spry BECAUSE I'm in my 50."


Hey, I am committed to spry in my 70's!!! It will be the new 50's!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> As always, we can count on Purl to offer a rational explanation.


Yes. It's not the same when PP is not around. And the Dame also. Haven't seen Dame for a bit.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> Hey, I am committed to spry in my 70's!!! It will be the new 50's!


Thatta girl! :thumbup:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

GWPlver said:


> Actually, I am not - in my 50's. Most likely, last puppy we will have and it saddens me to think this way. When I retire, I hope to train dogs at the shelters so they will be adoptable. Hubs and I are trainers and I hope to become a dog massage therapist. I think animals of all kinds are a gift.


50 is young. Ask any of us "mature" ladies. I'd LOVE to be 50 again!


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Yes. It's not the same when PP is not around. And the Dame also. Haven't seen Dame for a bit.


OOO. Yesterday I was worried about Judyjudyjudy. Now I am worried about Dame. Anyone hear from her?

The vets thought last month that "Dove" might have kidney problems. She has not used the box all day. I am getting nervous. Must watch her while bingeing on Grey's Anatomy to relax.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> I guess I am once again the different one. Only about 5 or 6 over the years from there have posted here. The largest majority of those of the D & P thread have not joined in the nastiness.
> I doubt that some of them really believe all the things said by a few of them. A lot of them don't even join in at all.
> 
> They likely agree with most of it but they don't join in. So to visit and try deliberately to upset them all, to me is foolish. Nobody wins - certainly we don't. I have said this over and over, but I still feel that way. We have proven that we don't go there and attack (I hope) when they leave us alone.


Designer, I truly don't think they do agree with the one who should not be named (TOWSNBN). Those on D&P seem to be decent and intelligent individuals, able to think for themselves and very caring. When she is not posting, they are quite decent.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> digging in deeper, KPG. You're dead wrong on this one though sometimes I wish you were right so I could have a 30-hour day.


Find out who those accountants are who can tell you about 123% of the time. I thought accountants dealt with money.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

DGreen said:


> 50 is young. Ask any of us "mature" ladies. I'd LOVE to be 50 again!


Ahem...in my 50's - soon to be in the 60's. But hey, I do yoga and can still do the splits. That was my one commitment to me - to be able to do the splits when I aged. I was gymnast in high school.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Wombatnomore said:


> Yes. It's not the same when PP is not around. And the Dame also. Haven't seen Dame for a bit.


I had an e-mail from her on the 10th. I've sent a message asking if she's ok.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

GWPlver said:


> Ahem...in my 50's - soon to be in the 60's. But hey, I do yoga and can still do the splits. That was my one commitment to me - to be able to do the splits when I aged. I was gymnast in high school.


I couldn't do the splits when I was a kid.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Hillary is much too right-leaning and too cozy with Wall Street for my taste. Seems lots of people are looking for an alternative to republican inaction and centrist democrats with no stomach for a fight. I am hoping to see Bernie Sanders' campaign gain steam (as it seems to be doing) because he's truly liberal. The right-wing has pulled the discussion so far to the extreme that centrist/moderate liberals are now called radicals. I'm all for a dose of Bernie Sanders' brand of true liberalism - even socialism. As for the republicans, I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for any of them. Each republican candidate is trying to outdo each other to appeal to fundamentalist Christian extremists but none are talking about solving problems unless it has to do with their perception of the legitimate use of a woman's vagina or whether the earth is 6000 years old. None of them can be taken seriously because none of them have solutions except to cut Medicare and Social Security or go to war. Okay with me if Hillary loses to a true liberal.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> If your understanding of percentages is representative of your understanding of other "facts," that explains a lot about your mental capacity. Perhaps you would like to put out a call for help in solving this math problem.
> 
> I have to add:
> 
> ...


Thank you, D. Very well expressed.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I couldn't do the splits when I was a kid.


Okay, so I must admit, that there is about 4 inches from the floor to my legs now but hey, that is still pretty good. Of course, getting up is challenge because the knees don't always cooperate. 
On another note, I am taking Swing dancing lessons and love it. Hubs and I country western dance but I have always wanted to learn swing dancing. Woo hoo!!!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

DGreen said:


> I already understand percentages so I won't be asking you for a hand with math. You obviously still don't understand why your statement was wrong and don't appear to be interested in finding out what that was.
> 
> I won't be looking to you for advice on mortgages, either.


Thank you for not quoting that full screed. I got into the second paragraph and realized that even 123% time wasn't enough to get through it all. And I read Victorian novels for fun.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

SQM said:


> You are a dope.


Watch it. She reports people who aren't nice to her, telling admin they defame and insult her (after she calls them nice things, like "pathological liars").


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

aw9358 said:


> Comrades, do I have to get stern with you? You're giving it the oxygen of publicity (to quote the vile Thatcher). Stop it now, or I will have to start using UPPER CASE, and nobody wants that. There are few things more upsetting than being ignored.


Please, ma'am, don't get strict with us. We're only playing.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Thank you, D. Very well expressed.


Thank YOU, Purl.

One of my pet peeves is people who talk about "giving it 110% effort" or whatever. Though common, it's always wrong!


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> Here's MY personal conclusion: you have way too much time on your hands, lady.


123% of the time, in fact.


----------



## GWPlver (Mar 15, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> Watch it. She reports people who aren't nice to her, telling admin they defame and insult her (after she calls them nice things, like "pathological liars").


I find it interesting THOWNBN is not posting in the DP site. Perhaps those intelligent women finally had enough of her as they should. I would not want to be associated with her. Pretty sure Admin has her figured out by now.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> She's here with Solo because neither one of them can survive without conflict. Maybe a visit from us to D&P will shut their grossly over sized pie holes.


Please no. If you do, LTL will come here and tell us how mean we are to those lovely ladies, which makes me want to throw up.


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Indeed, and still have time to knit all those marvy presents and gifts. Redundant, but oh well.


I could never figure out whether "present" meant "gift," "here," or (with accent on the second syllable) "bestow."


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> Hell, SQ let's shoot for a year!!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Just Beachy said:


> Just checked out that other thread mentioned here.
> 
> At least in this thread the topic goes from one interesting news item to the next.
> 
> ...


That's what I suspected. And they're not all so nice.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

GWPlver said:


> Ahem...in my 50's - soon to be in the 60's. But hey, I do yoga and can still do the splits. That was my one commitment to me - to be able to do the splits when I aged. I was gymnast in high school.


Boy you must climb that bamboo tree very quickly.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Good for you! I feel the same in so many ways but I'm not completely off the 'market.' I'm not looking but I will one day. As long as I don't have to cohabit, that would be a good start!


That is an excellent idea, the 'no cohabit' bit. I think that non cohabitation would be the basis of a successful relationship but only if the other party does their own housework and pays their own bills.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Unpleasant occurrence in Texas today. Karma maybe?
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/06/13/dallas-police-shooting/71166038/


Wow, I had not heard about this. What can you say, it is unbelievable.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> The following story made me feel so sad. I think we're only seeing the very tip of the FIFA scandal and if this story is any indication, we're in for an enormous shock:
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3121989/Widow-murdered-2010-South-Africa-Fifa-World-Cup-whistle-blower-Jimmy-Mohlala-says-husband-alive-today-hadn-t-exposed-multimillion-dollar-stadium-fraud.html


I think more dirty laundry is going to be exposed before the whole story is know about the corruption.

You definitely have good research skills and keep up to date with current news. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> "the insults fly more than 100%+ of the time "
> 
> Someone needs to review their math. There can never be more than 100% of "the time."


You expect brains and hissy fits from two year olds?????


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> knitpresentgifts
> I see you fill your boredom with doing boring stuff. Who in the dickens keeps track of stuff as you do? No-one in their right mind. Thank you for validating my points. You certainly have a pitiful existence. While you are speaking of improvements, your backyard is in need of attention.


Oh well, it keeps here off the streets, as they say.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Just Beachy said:


>


My Ol' Friend - I give you tonight's point for such a cute and clever post.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> Comrades, do I have to get stern with you? You're giving it the oxygen of publicity (to quote the vile Thatcher). Stop it now, or I will have to start using UPPER CASE, and nobody wants that. There are few things more upsetting than being ignored.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Well said and excellent advice. Now if people do not stop feeding oxygen to the problem someone will be handing out smacks up the side of the head all around.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Aw, c'mon. This is fun!


Are you asking me to send you to your room young lady. I will send you to your room young lady. It is not fun it is just feeding the creatures ego and heavens to Betsy that ego is well and truly over inflated as it is. So "Warning Will Smith......IGNORE IGNORE IGNORE".


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> But aw, tried ignoring and nothing changed!


Go to your room, NOW. I am not going to tell you again young lady, IGNORE IGNORE IGNORE.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Are you asking me to send you to your room young lady. I will send you to your room young lady. It is not fun it is just feeding the creatures ego and heavens to Betsy that ego is well and truly over inflated as it is. So "Warning Will Smith......IGNORE IGNORE IGNORE".


----------



## Poor Purl (Apr 14, 2011)

Just Beachy said:


> Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention the obligatory whining about imaginary 'race cards" and such.
> 
> And then of course there's a VocaList over there constantly doing her warmups;
> 
> Me me me me me me me me, me me me me me me me


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Green is right. It's all about you isn't it?


She really is off her trolley and I honestly think she is going to have a major seizure at any moment now. We should back off as we do not want to be responsible for her having a complete mental breakdown and she ends up in the psychiatric ward of a closed mental institution.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> She really is off her trolley and I honestly think she is going to have a major seizure at any moment now. We should back off as we do not want to be responsible for her having a complete mental breakdown and she ends up in the psychiatric ward of a closed mental institution.


Would that be an institution for the closed minded? I'll sign the commitment order.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Talk about family secrets - I was 35 years old before I found out my favorite uncle had been divorced from a woman who left him for another man taking my cousin with her. Cousin and I were each under 2 years old when it happened.
> 
> An acquaintance asked me if my name was what turned out to be my cousin's name. I mentioned to my mother that I must have a look alike named that name, and told her the circumstances where this lady had seen my doppelganger. Dead silence, then Mother told me the whole sordid story. I am sure my cousin was never told.
> 
> My uncle had remarried and had two other daughters, neither of whom wanted anything to do with their half sister. I know where she is and her married name, but not my place to cause any aggravation for the cousins I grew up with.


Things happened that were so sad back then. People had half siblings they did not know about and if they did know they did not want any contact. I know I have a half brother out there somewhere. My eldest son told me, my mother had told him, but she had not told anyone else. My father had an affair when he returned from the war in the Middle East in mid 1943, so the child, a son, would have been born in 1944. I know where the woman involved worked but that is all, I do not know her name. I asked my eldest sister and she told me what she knew because she was a teenager at the time. I was two and a half when dad came back from the war, he sailed for the conflict on April 4th, 1940, nearly 8 months before I was born. I only found out about the affair and child after my mother died so I could not ask her about it. She died in 1993 and I have often thought I would like to find my half brother but honestly not knowing his name and date of birth I do not know where to start. My sister, the one who died, absolutely refused to believe the story. She would have been 9 when the child was born and in those days children of that age were not told anything. So I have a half brother I have never met and I wonder if he knows if he had 8 other siblings or if he even wants to know or make contact.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Poor Purl said:


> But there must be more than 100%. How else could someone have time to do all the exciting, heartwarming, charitable things she does and still have time to read and count up all those messages and compute all those numbers? AND know exactly what happened at the Texas pool party (was she actually a witness, as her message implies?), know that everyone else here had it wrong, and write long, long repetitious posts setting us all straight.
> 
> I guess it's quantum physics. I never could get that straight.


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Things happened that were so sad back then. People had half siblings they did not know about and if they did know they did not want any contact. I know I have a half brother out there somewhere. My eldest son told me, my mother had told him, but she had not told anyone else. My father had an affair when he returned from the war in the Middle East in mid 1943, so the child, a son, would have been born in 1944. I know where the woman involved worked but that is all, I do not know her name. I asked my eldest sister and she told me what she knew because she was a teenager at the time. I was two and a half when dad came back from the war, he sailed for the conflict on April 4th, 1940, nearly 8 months before I was born. I only found out about the affair and child after my mother died so I could not ask her about it. She died in 1993 and I have often thought I would like to find my half brother but honestly not knowing his name and date of birth I do not know where to start. My sister, the one who died, absolutely refused to believe the story. She would have been 9 when the child was born and in those days children of that age were not told anything. So I have a half brother I have never met and I wonder if he knows if he had 8 other siblings or if he even wants to know or make contact.


That is a sad story. Secrets are often corrosive - I think we handle such things much better these days.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Ladies, we need a lighter note.

I'm attaching a photo of a barn swallow who, despite our efforts to discourage nest-building, succeeded in building a nest within inches of our main entrance/exit. Yesterday, when she was away I used a mirror to check and sure enough, she has laid four tiny eggs. She seems either unfazed by our comings and goings or she is a very brave mama bird. I speak gently to her when I pass the nest. 

Messy? Yes. But there is something lovely about watching the nurturing of new life. Sweet.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Just Beachy said:


> Hey, do those psych wards have the series of tubes they now call "The Internets"?


You'll have to ask one of the escapees over on the Diaper Pail. They might know.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Just Beachy said:


> We had a (_I think_) swallow that did the same thing, built a nest on the top of the sill of the front door and had babies.
> 
> I HATED going out and disturbing them and avoided doing so when I could.
> 
> We had a screen door in, so sometimes when they were tweeting, we'd turn off the TV, open the door and listen to them tweet.


I'm anxious for the eggs to hatch so we can hear them, too. This little bird has been there through the noise of the construction work and a lot of coming and going. She's a trooper. We really can't avoid that door and most of the time she just stays put and calmly watches us.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Just Beachy said:


> ... now that you mention it, with odds like that, someone there's bound to have first hand experience.


Likely. Trouble is, you would have to GO THERE to ask.

You would have to get your gag reflex under control.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Just Beachy said:


> We had a (_I think_) swallow that did the same thing, built a nest on the top of the sill of the front door and had babies.
> 
> I HATED going out and disturbing them and avoided doing so when I could.
> 
> We had a screen door in, so sometimes when they were tweeting, we'd turn off the TV, open the door and listen to them tweet.


Somewhere I have a photo of a Tawny Frogmouth that flew into our kitchen in 1987. The photo shows him calmly sitting on top of the milk container on the bench. He was absolutely beautiful. We turned the light off so he would go back outside. After sitting there for about 15 minutes he flew off with hardly a sound. He just made an every so gentle fluttering sound when he flew off and he looked so soft. Such a beautiful creature.

This is not the photo we took, it is an image from the web so show what a tawny frogmouth looks like.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

EveMCooke said:


> Somewhere I have a photo of a Tawny Frogmouth that flew into our kitchen in 1987. The photo shows him calmly sitting on top of the milk container on the bench. He was absolutely beautiful. We turned the light off so he would go back outside. After sitting there for about 15 minutes he flew off with hardly a sound. He just made an every so gentle fluttering sound when he flew off and he looked so soft. Such a beautiful creature.


I found a photo on the 'net. Looks like a relative of an owl. I learned that owls have special feathers that allow them to fly silently. Trouble is, the feathers get waterlogged and they can't fly when wet. It's a tradeoff, I guess. Beautiful bird.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

I'm thrashed, girls. Bedtime. See y'all tomorrow.


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## sumpleby (Aug 3, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I've been pleasantly surprised at the support Bernie has been getting. Who knows? Maybe he has a real chance. I will vote for Hillary over ANY republican, though.
> 
> Of course, I find it hard to imagine why anyone would object to a Jewish candidate. As a matter of fact, I would prefer to vote for one whose faith does not call for winning converts all the time and who leaves religion where it belongs - out of politics.


Bernie Sanders is great. However, the Democratic party has to consider something when nominating a candidate for election: how much chance does that candidate have of being elected over the Republican nominee? Clinton has the big edge there, much as I like Sanders.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Just Beachy said:


> I can't get over the poster who said it wasn't about racism.
> 
> First of all, from what I read, it was only a few 'extra' partiers actually trying to get in the pool area. There were a lot of kids in the park (which was only feet away), but only a couple of kids actually trying to scale the fence.
> 
> ...


Just Beachy
you are so right, it was racist.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> Bernie Sanders is great. However, the Democratic party has to consider something when nominating a candidate for election: how much chance does that candidate have of being elected over the Republican nominee? Clinton has the big edge there, much as I like Sanders.


sumpleby
I am with you.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Ladies, we need a lighter note.
> 
> I'm attaching a photo of a barn swallow who, despite our efforts to discourage nest-building, succeeded in building a nest within inches of our main entrance/exit. Yesterday, when she was away I used a mirror to check and sure enough, she has laid four tiny eggs. She seems either unfazed by our comings and goings or she is a very brave mama bird. I speak gently to her when I pass the nest.
> 
> Messy? Yes. But there is something lovely about watching the nurturing of new life. Sweet.


DGreen
thank you for the lovely story. We have 10 Nests at different places under the overhang. Doves, Robins, Cardinals, Sparrows, Baltimore Orioles all have produced young which have left the Nests. An Oriole smartly build a Nest in a Large Birdcage which we have outside. Some Nests are in Wreaths hanging on Tree Trunks. It is very lively around here. The Cardinals are exquisite Nest builders and the Doves are simply dumb doing that and frequently occupy the Nest build by a different bird. We also have a big Owl coming for a visit just about every Night and I hope she does not steal my Baby Rabbits. As soon as I step outside the Owl starts a conversation and when I speak to her she answers back. Some Neighbors thought that she is not real. Among the Sparrows coming to the feeders is a yellow Canary. Not the first one to hang with Sparrows.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Their word means nothing. They have no ability to control their minds, anger and possess no willpower.
> 
> I've ignored them for months, some for a year or more. They hate being ignored but cannot ignore me. They all say they hate me and yet jump at every opportunity to respond to me.
> 
> If that doesn't beat all! :-D It's hilarious but also boring.


My friends and I don't wander around looking for ants to invade our kitchens. But when vermin show up we deal with them.

If you didn't come seeking attention, nobody who has reacted to your invasion would pay you any attention. If you stay on your precious island, sport your denim and pearls, and bask in the adoration of your hangers on, nobody participating in this topic would come looking for you.

It is obvious you are visiting to stir up animosity, saying things that display your perspective in all its vainglory, and than complaining when there is a reaction. If our reaction is so unwelcome, stay out of our kitchens. Shoo! Shoo!


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> GW, repeat after me, "I am spry BECAUSE I'm in my 50s."


People my age are parents of people in their 50's! I consider anybody young enough for me to have diapered to be a spring chicken.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

EveMCooke said:


> That is an excellent idea, the 'no cohabit' bit. I think that non cohabitation would be the basis of a successful relationship but only if the other party does their own housework and pays their own bills.


One has to be careful even if a relationship is with someone you have known for years. My widowed mother dated the widower of one of her close friends, a woman with whom she knit and played mah jongg. He grew to expect her to cook for him and perform other wifely activities. She was not interested in being a wife again.

My father was well read, liked a variety of music, discussions about politics and current affairs, and the boy friend was into watching reruns of old westerns on TV and Phillies games. As lonely as Mother was, he was more boring than companionable. DH, DD and I were polite to him when we visited, but there was really nothing stimulating to talk about. DD and DH are not into sports, and I grew up a Brooklyn Dodgers fan. We watch the news, PBS, and all sorts of how to programs. And his children were plain rude to Mother. Mother once told his daughter that she had no interest in BF's estate, that she had more reason to be concerned he was the gold digger.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> Oooh...let me answer!!! Because she had to lay low for awhile and now she just can't stand not being front and center. But, as usual, she is misinformed and spouting crap. She had to post niceties in other threads to prove she was okay but she is back! How sad for her peeps to take up for her. I guess they drank her kool aid.


Who is the one doing the drinking; you! I didn't 'have to lay low for awhile." I refused to read this crap thread!  I've been posting all along elsewhere on KP when desired. No one, not ONE, other KP user has said the vile words and insults to me as those who regularly posts on this thread (all Liberals).

I "can't stand not being front and center?" Yah, that's why you didnt she me post on this thread for for 5 months!

You have no idea what you're talking about as usual.

btw; point out the the facts of the Texas pool party I 'spouted that were crap' and maybe someone will not accuse you of being 'misinformed and spouting crap'.

What 'peeps' of mine have taken up for me here?

Boy, you need to really lay off drinking the Kool-aid and all alcoholic beverages and pull your thoughts together because not one statement you made is accurate, makes much sense or is enlightened.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Just Beachy
> you are so right, it was racist.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> People my age are parents of people in their 50's! I consider anybody young enough for me to have diapered to be a spring chicken.


It is interesting when one of the 'youngsters' forgets we are old enough to be their parents. Son turns 55 this month. Hard to believe. Some of us have some Grands too although I am not fortunate to be one of them.

I am fortunate with my small family. NOt that they are few, but that they are kind, and loving and very much part of our lives. So many seniors have children who just don't give a darn. Lucky indeed.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Of course it did.
> 
> Autism is not caused by vaccines end of story. There is no research which suggests a correlation (at any level) between autism and vaccines. Sheesh!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> GW, repeat after me, "I am spry BECAUSE I'm in my 50s."


Until a little while ago, and I will be again, SPRY IN MY EIGHTIES. So you have lots of time just go for what you want to do. Don't even think about getting old (you can't stop that anyway) and enjoy yourself every day. Works for me even though it has been a bit more challenging this past little while. I still believe it is the best most fun way of growing old. If you worry about it it will put a pall on your life. Deal with what you have to and enjoy all the rest.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

IF Vaccines cause Autism, Autism would be rampant and it is not. Hope we find what causes it. There is speculation and the Research is looking extensively for an answer.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> That is a sad story. Secrets are often corrosive - I think we handle such things much better these days.


There definitely aren't nearly as many secrets kept. We are much more aware and understanding of things now. That is one very good thing that has changed from when we were young. Secrets were part of life. Things happened right under my nose that I wasn't even aware of - some I am still learning about. Less and less as I figure I won't learn much more as there is no one left to tell me about any secrets now.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Until a little while ago, and I will be again, SPRY IN MY EIGHTIES. So you have lots of time just go for what you want to do. Don't even think about getting old (you can't stop that anyway) and enjoy yourself every day. Works for me even though it has been a bit more challenging this past little while. I still believe it is the best most fun way of growing old. If you worry about it it will put a pall on your life. Deal with what you have to and enjoy all the rest.


Designer1234
my Motto is: "Do what you want and feel like", Age is irrelevant and never care what others think about your activities. I hang around with much younger folks and show them by example. Age has no boundaries, only those you put on yourself. As long as you think you can, go for it.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> She really is off her trolley and I honestly think she is going to have a major seizure at any moment now. We should back off as we do not want to be responsible for her having a complete mental breakdown and she ends up in the psychiatric ward of a closed mental institution.


You are truly a miserable person aren't you Eve? I'll remind you once again since you seem to not have any working brain cells in your head, I made a post outlining the facts known regarding the Texas pool party incident.

Immediately after your second post responding to my post you started in with your personal obnoxious insults and trashing and bashing. Here you are continuing with your disgusting words.

I have no idea how you and your Lib gang posting on this thread even survive; you need a heart and brain to be human last I heard, and I see none here.

Is it any wonder why your world is so miserable for you and your liberal friends posting here? Trashing me BECAUSE I wrote a post outlining something in the news on a public knitting thread?

Liberals are supposed to be open minded, tolerant of differing ideas, progressive in their thinking and caring for all others.

My posts offered none of my opinions, I repeated the facts as broadcast by professional journalists. So, you all went on a rampage insulting the facts but made it personal.

The Libs here are nothing but hate-filled dolts wallowing in their misery and self-pity while insulting ANYONE who crosses their path who posts educated, informed, interesting, fun or intelligent discussion. The Lib gang here not only disgraces itself, it is a blight to your personal integrity, character and political party.

Since my post a few days ago, there has been nothing but sick and vile insults totaling probably over one hundred posts by now. You all LIVE to insult.

I hope you all are proud of your filth and vitriol - you all deserve each other in your snake pit, so I hope you'll enjoy yourselves together.

Life is good. You and your Liberal gang have missed it all.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Hillary is much too right-leaning and too cozy with Wall Street for my taste. Seems lots of people are looking for an alternative to republican inaction and centrist democrats with no stomach for a fight. I am hoping to see Bernie Sanders' campaign gain steam (as it seems to be doing) because he's truly liberal. The right-wing has pulled the discussion so far to the extreme that centrist/moderate liberals are now called radicals. I'm all for a dose of Bernie Sanders' brand of true liberalism - even socialism. As for the republicans, I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for any of them. Each republican candidate is trying to outdo each other to appeal to fundamentalist Christian extremists but none are talking about solving problems unless it has to do with their perception of the legitimate use of a woman's vagina or whether the earth is 6000 years old. None of them can be taken seriously because none of them have solutions except to cut Medicare and Social Security or go to war. Okay with me if Hillary loses to a true liberal.


Just HOW is Bernie Sanders going to SOLVE the country's problems? All I've heard so far from him, and the rest of the candidates as well, is fodder for the press. It's all fine and dandy to want things for free but who will pay for all the freebees? It usually falls onto the backs of the middle class and we have taken enough hits.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

SQM said:


> Of course your advice is sound but I do not think of her unless she appears. Actually, I enjoy her visits. She stirs my blood and gets me ready for action. Hope this finds you and yours well.


If only that were true. By your getting ready for action do you mean instigate others to go to D&P and cause havoc, as you stay behind and view the outcome? Doesn't sound like much of anything is stirred up within you.

All is well here. Hope your move is everything you hoped it would be.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

aw9358 said:


> No, it's so annoying when nobody responds. It's classic child training. Please give it a try. I'm speaking from bitter experience. I know it's an itch that you desperately want to scratch, but think of the satisfaction.


If this is truly the case, you need to educate your comrades on how this principle really works. They just don't get it. It's okay to use all upper case when lecturing them, who knows it just might be the gimmick that gets the lesson through to them. Good luck.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> If only that were true. By your getting ready for action do you mean instigate others to go to D&P and cause havoc, as you stay behind and view the outcome? Doesn't sound like much of anything is stirred up within you.
> 
> All is well here. Hope your move is everything you hoped it would be.


Hi Girl,

Thanks for inquiring. I still miss NYC and Roosevelt Island particularly this weekend, but it is great being with friends from a zillion years ago. It is truly my second childhood.

The ladies here hardly need me to stir them up. They are quite able to get their dander up when provoked, on their own. Stay well and upright.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Funny thing is that all of it's "new" friends are reading this stuff right now.
> It's plain to see what it is really like. Solow is the only on efollowing it around.
> Where are the rest of it's friends?


Do keep your facts straight. I posted to Designer. But why let facts get in the way of your "classy" BS. This way you and Marilyn can stay on your fantasy high road. Boy is that gonna hurt when you fall off.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

GWPlver said:


> Designer, I truly don't think they do agree with the one who should not be named (TOWSNBN). Those on D&P seem to be decent and intelligent individuals, able to think for themselves and very caring. When she is not posting, they are quite decent.


You can't put people in the same restricted area when you have never talked to them, or been in any 
way insulted by them. There are quite a few who stay there and leave us alone. I have no issue with them disagreeing completely with us and I think when we attack them there we don't do ourselves any favor. We lower ourselves to the same place KPG, Solo and the couple or three of the others who come here to pick a fight. Once again, my strong opinion. I am not here to judge people who leave us alone and who are part of that group. They are allowed their beliefs, and if they stay there and join in the way they want to I really believe we are wrong to go there.

Some of them, are decent people. I have been guilty as have some of them and some of us of putting those from the other thread under one heading. However, I know of some who DON'T come here and often don't discuss us. We discuss them, here and they are welcome to express their feelings there. Some however DON'T, so why attack them?

It is when we go to the other site and deliberately antagonize that I feel uncomfortable. Some who used to come here are not bothering us. If she who must not be named can get us to attack, she wins. I will be darned if I go there and join in and let her win.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> Just HOW is Bernie Sanders going to SOLVE the country's problems? All I've heard so far from him, and the rest of the candidates as well, is fodder for the press. It's all fine and dandy to want things for free but who will pay for all the freebees? It usually falls onto the backs of the middle class and we have taken enough hits.


You are correct, the freebies - in the example below MASSIVE freebies to corporations - fall onto the backs of the middle class. Yes, we have taken enough hits.

Evidently, we listen to different sources. I posted this information elsewhere today, but it's worth repeating because it exemplifies Bernie Sanders' understanding of the source of many of our problems. More to come regarding his plans to solve those problems. First published during the 2012 campaign but entirely relevant today.

*Sen. Bernie Sanders fired back at 80 CEOs who wrote a letter lecturing America about deficit reduction by released a report detailing how 18 of these CEOs have wrecked the economy by evading taxes and outsourcing jobs. 80 CEOs raised the ire of Sen. Sanders by publishing a letter in the Wall Street Journal urging America to act on the deficit, and reform Medicare and Medicaid.*

_Sen. Sanders responded to the lecture from Americas CEOs by releasing a report that detailed how 18 of them have helped blow up the deficit and wreck the economy by outsourcing jobs and evading US taxes.

Sanders said,

There really is no shame. The Wall Street leaders whose recklessness and illegal behavior caused this terrible recession are now lecturing the American people on the need for courage to deal with the nations finances and deficit crisis. Before telling us why we should cut Social Security, Medicare and other vitally important programs, these CEOs might want to take a hard look at their responsibility for causing the deficit and this terrible recession.

Our Wall Street friends might also want to show some courage of their own by suggesting that the wealthiest people in this country, like them, start paying their fair share of taxes. They might work to end the outrageous corporate loopholes, tax havens and outsourcing provisions that their lobbyists have littered throughout the tax code  contributing greatly to our deficit.

Many of the CEOs who signed the deficit-reduction letter run corporations that evaded at least $34.5 billion in taxes by setting up more than 600 subsidiaries in the Cayman Islands and other offshore tax havens since 2008. As a result, at least a dozen of the companies avoided paying any federal income taxes in recent years, and even received more than $6.4 billion in tax refunds from the IRS since 2008.

Several of the companies received a total taxpayer bailout of more than $2.5 trillion from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department.

Many of the companies also have outsourced hundreds of thousands of American jobs to China and other low wage countries, forcing their workers to receive unemployment insurance and other federal benefits. In other words, these are some of the same people who have significantly caused the deficit to explode over the last four years.

Here are the 18 CEOs Sanders labeled job destroyers in his report. (All data from Top Corporate Dodgers report.)

1). 1. Bank of America CEO Brian Moynihan
Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2010? Zero. $1.9 billion tax refund.
Taxpayer Bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department? Over $1.3 trillion.

Amount of federal income taxes Bank of America would have owed if offshore tax havens were eliminated? $2.6 billion.

2). Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein
Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2008? Zero. $278 million tax refund.
Taxpayer Bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department? $824 billion.
Amount of federal income taxes Goldman Sachs would have owed if offshore tax havens were eliminated? $2.7 billion

3). JP Morgan Chase CEO James Dimon
Taxpayer Bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department? $416 billion.
Amount of federal income taxes JP Morgan Chase would have owed if offshore tax havens were eliminated? $4.9 billion.

4). General Electric CEO Jeffrey Immelt
Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2010? Zero. $3.3 billion tax refund.
Taxpayer Bailout from the Federal Reserve? $16 billion.
Jobs Shipped Overseas? At least 25,000 since 2001.

5). Verizon CEO Lowell McAdam
Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2010? Zero. $705 million tax refund.
American Jobs Cut in 2010? In 2010, Verizon announced 13,000 job cuts, the third highest corporate layoff total that year.

6). Boeing CEO James McNerney, Jr.
Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2010? None. $124 million tax refund.
American Jobs Shipped overseas? Over 57,000.
Amount of Corporate Welfare? At least $58 billion.

7). Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer
Amount of federal income taxes Microsoft would have owed if offshore tax havens were eliminated? $19.4 billion.

8). Honeywell International CEO David Cote
Amount of federal income taxes paid from 2008-2010? Zero. $34 million tax refund.

9). Corning CEO Wendell Weeks
Amount of federal income taxes paid from 2008-2010? Zero. $4 million tax refund.

10). Time Warner CEO Glenn Britt
Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2008? Zero. $74 million tax refund.

11). Merck CEO Kenneth Frazier
Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2009? Zero. $55 million tax refund.

12). Deere & Company CEO Samuel Allen
Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2009? Zero. $1 million tax refund.

13). Marsh & McLennan Companies CEO Brian Duperreault
Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2010? Zero. $90 million refund.

14). Qualcomm CEO Paul Jacobs
Amount of federal income taxes Qualcomm would have owed if offshore tax havens were eliminated? $4.7 billion.

15). Tenneco CEO Gregg Sherill
Amount of federal income taxes Tenneco would have owed if offshore tax havens were eliminated? $269 million.

16). Express Scripts CEO George Paz
Amount of federal income taxes Express Scripts would have owed if offshore tax havens were eliminated? $20 million.

17). Caesars Entertainment CEO Gary Loveman
Amount of federal income taxes Caesars Entertainment would have owed if offshore tax havens were eliminated? $9 million.

18). R.R. Donnelly & Sons CEO Thomas Quinlan III
Amount of federal income taxes paid in 2008? Zero. $49 million tax refund.

Eighteen of the 80 CEOs who signed the call for deficit action are actually some of the biggest outsourcers and tax cheats in America. First, they crashed the economy in 2008. They followed that up by taking billions in taxpayer bailout dollars. Their next step was to outsource jobs and evade taxes. Now they are calling for action on a deficit that they helped create over the past four years.

Bernie Sanders is exposing the hypocrisy of these CEOs, and every American should understand that if a republican is elected president, these pigs see potential for unlimited feeding from the taxpayer trough. Only by standing together can we tell these CEOs that the bill has come due, and it is time for them to pay.

We can tell these gluttons of our dollars that the all you can eat taxpayer buffet is now closed._


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> Just HOW is Bernie Sanders going to SOLVE the country's problems? All I've heard so far from him, and the rest of the candidates as well, is fodder for the press. It's all fine and dandy to want things for free but who will pay for all the freebees? It usually falls onto the backs of the middle class and we have taken enough hits.


If you want to know where he stands on issues, it's easy to learn. His website:

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/legislation/


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I have two quail families who march to my backdoor (glass to the floor) to let me know they're ready for breakfast. DH can't resist either.



DGreen said:


> Ladies, we need a lighter note.
> 
> I'm attaching a photo of a barn swallow who, despite our efforts to discourage nest-building, succeeded in building a nest within inches of our main entrance/exit. Yesterday, when she was away I used a mirror to check and sure enough, she has laid four tiny eggs. She seems either unfazed by our comings and goings or she is a very brave mama bird. I speak gently to her when I pass the nest.
> 
> Messy? Yes. But there is something lovely about watching the nurturing of new life. Sweet.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Sounds like my kind of fun.



EveMCooke said:


> Somewhere I have a photo of a Tawny Frogmouth that flew into our kitchen in 1987. The photo shows him calmly sitting on top of the milk container on the bench. He was absolutely beautiful. We turned the light off so he would go back outside. After sitting there for about 15 minutes he flew off with hardly a sound. He just made an every so gentle fluttering sound when he flew off and he looked so soft. Such a beautiful creature.
> 
> This is not the photo we took, it is an image from the web so show what a tawny frogmouth looks like.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm amazed by the sizes of owls we have. Tiny burrowing owls to the really big guys.



Just Beachy said:


> Ooh, gorgeous.
> 
> We had a young owl fly into our screened porch through the screen and then sat there for about 10 min, seemingly stunned. I forget what type of owl it was though. But I too was struck by his beauty and power.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> Bernie Sanders is great. However, the Democratic party has to consider something when nominating a candidate for election: how much chance does that candidate have of being elected over the Republican nominee? Clinton has the big edge there, much as I like Sanders.


 :thumbup:


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

sumpleby said:


> Bernie Sanders is great. However, the Democratic party has to consider something when nominating a candidate for election: how much chance does that candidate have of being elected over the Republican nominee? Clinton has the big edge there, much as I like Sanders.


 :thumbup: And the Repubs got nuttin.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Much better than Disney. Take some pictures for us if you can.



Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> thank you for the lovely story. We have 10 Nests at different places under the overhang. Doves, Robins, Cardinals, Sparrows, Baltimore Orioles all have produced young which have left the Nests. An Oriole smartly build a Nest in a Large Birdcage which we have outside. Some Nests are in Wreaths hanging on Tree Trunks. It is very lively around here. The Cardinals are exquisite Nest builders and the Doves are simply dumb doing that and frequently occupy the Nest build by a different bird. We also have a big Owl coming for a visit just about every Night and I hope she does not steal my Baby Rabbits. As soon as I step outside the Owl starts a conversation and when I speak to her she answers back. Some Neighbors thought that she is not real. Among the Sparrows coming to the feeders is a yellow Canary. Not the first one to hang with Sparrows.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> My friends and I don't wander around looking for ants to invade our kitchens. But when vermin show up we deal with them.
> 
> If you didn't come seeking attention, nobody who has reacted to your invasion would pay you any attention. If you stay on your precious island, sport your denim and pearls, and bask in the adoration of your hangers on, nobody participating in this topic would come looking for you.
> 
> It is obvious you are visiting to stir up animosity, saying things that display your perspective in all its vainglory, and than complaining when there is a reaction. If our reaction is so unwelcome, stay out of our kitchens. Shoo! Shoo!


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> Just HOW is Bernie Sanders going to SOLVE the country's problems? All I've heard so far from him, and the rest of the candidates as well, is fodder for the press. It's all fine and dandy to want things for free but who will pay for all the freebees? It usually falls onto the backs of the middle class and we have taken enough hits.


From the _Business Insider_ relative to high taxes on the wealthy

Contrary to what Republicans would have you believe, super-high tax rates on rich people do not appear to hurt the economy or make people lazy: During the 1950s and early 1960s, the top bracket income tax rate was over 90%--and the economy, middle-class, and stock market boomed.
Super-low tax rates on rich people also appear to be correlated with unsustainable sugar highs in the economy--brief, enjoyable booms followed by protracted busts. They also appear to be correlated with very high inequality. (For example, see the 1920s and now).

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tax-rates?op=1#ixzz3d4ThxVA2

I suggest you read more - the article has a lot of very informative charts and it does not appear to be slanted either left or right.

I post this because I believe that tax fairness is central to resolving our economic/educational and social woes. Bernie's views are in line with mine on this subject so I see his agenda as a problem-solving one. Reganomics was the source of many of our problems today and his "trickle-down" voodoo economic theories (still embraced by conservatives) were not and are not valid based on historical evidence. Please note, I am referring to actual evidence.


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

It doesn't get much better than Bernie's explanation. No BS there.



DGreen said:


> You are correct, the freebies - in the example below MASSIVE freebies to corporations - fall onto the backs of the middle class. Yes, we have taken enough hits.
> 
> Evidently, we listen to different sources. I posted this information elsewhere today, but it's worth repeating because it exemplifies Bernie Sanders' understanding of the source of many of our problems. More to come regarding his plans to solve those problems. First published during the 2012 campaign but entirely relevant today.
> 
> ...


----------



## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

DGreen said:


> If you want to know where he stands on issues, it's easy to learn. His website:
> 
> http://www.sanders.senate.gov/legislation/


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> Just HOW is Bernie Sanders going to SOLVE the country's problems? All I've heard so far from him, and the rest of the candidates as well, is fodder for the press. It's all fine and dandy to want things for free but who will pay for all the freebees? It usually falls onto the backs of the middle class and we have taken enough hits.


Anyone who is familiar with this thread has already heard my ceaseless ranting about the evils of money in politics. I believe the SCOTUS ruling on Citizens United to be a disaster of critical proportion and has accelerated our decline as a democracy. I believe that no corporation should be allowed to contribute to anyone seeking elected office and that violations should be swift, severe and certain.

We need a constitutional convention to overturn Citizens United and to accomplish my second point.

I believe that elections should be publicly funded, putting all candidates on equal footing. This would eliminate the deep pocket donors on both sides who muddy the waters and misdirect the priorities in legislating. Let the people speak - but more importantly, let the people BE HEARD. My representatives in Arizona have made it abundantly clear that they don't care what voters think.

Bernie Sanders has publicly endorsed overturning Citizens United and is definitely on record as being against corporate lobbyists who buy politicians.

Until we get corporate influence and big-money interest out of politics, we can't solve our problems with health care, infrastructure, education, and on and on.


----------



## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

And another of my heroes, Robert Reish. No BS there.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

DGreen said:


> And another of my heroes, Robert Reish. No BS there.


Add him to Bernie Sanders!

They make me want to dance!! WOW! away we go!!!!!


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> I have two quail families who march to my backdoor (glass to the floor) to let me know they're ready for breakfast. DH can't resist either.


damemary
would love to add Quail to my collection.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

damemary said:


> :thumbup: And the Repubs got nuttin.


damemary
yes, they do, they have a Circus. Will be interesting to hear what the Ringmaster brings to the Plate.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Anyone who is familiar with this thread has already heard my ceaseless ranting about the evils of money in politics. I believe the SCOTUS ruling on Citizens United to be a disaster of critical proportion and has accelerated our decline as a democracy. I believe that no corporation should be allowed to contribute to anyone seeking elected office and that violations should be swift, severe and certain.
> 
> We need a constitutional convention to overturn Citizens United and to accomplish my second point.
> 
> ...


DGreen
you are so correct. Still hate Alito for his idiotic behavior during President Obama's speech. Is that Man that stupid or does he get paid for acting so. Perhaps an investigation is in order.


----------



## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

DGreen said:


> And another of my heroes, Robert Reish. No BS there.


DGreen
what a brilliant Man Robert Reich is and never afraid to speak up.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Until a little while ago, and I will be again, SPRY IN MY EIGHTIES. So you have lots of time just go for what you want to do. Don't even think about getting old (you can't stop that anyway) and enjoy yourself every day. Works for me even though it has been a bit more challenging this past little while. I still believe it is the best most fun way of growing old. If you worry about it it will put a pall on your life. Deal with what you have to and enjoy all the rest.


In my crowd, we agree that getting old beats the alternative. You stay as active as arthritis will let you, do what you can to stay mentally alert, and find stuff to laugh about. I don't have anybody to play Scrabble any more. I have outlived my friends who enjoyed it.

I sure hope you recover fully from your fall. Scary!

I rolled out of bed onto the floor a few months ago and ended up getting an injured shoulder. Doctor pulled out 10 ccs of fluid that had built up at the head of my bicep from the injury. I sit up carefully and get my equilibrium now before I swing around to put my feet on the ground. I too was shaken up and consider myself lucky not to have a more severe injury. Sure is a wake up call.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> IF Vaccines cause Autism, Autism would be rampant and it is not. Hope we find what causes it. There is speculation and the Research is looking extensively for an answer.


The last few articles I read conjecture that older parents tend to have a greater risk of having autistic children. I had seen studies that eggs start to deteriorate as a woman ages which may be a cause of some forms of retardation in children of older mothers at a higher percentage than among younger mothers. But now they are studying whether the little swimmers break down as a man ages increasing the danger to older fathers regarding autistic offspring. For the sake of future generations, I certainly hope they find the cause or causes and find ways to deal with it. Also hope they find ways to help the poor kids with cystic fibrosis.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> Hi Girl,
> 
> Thanks for inquiring. I still miss NYC and Roosevelt Island particularly this weekend, but it is great being with friends from a zillion years ago. It is truly my second childhood.
> 
> The ladies here hardly need me to stir them up. They are quite able to get their dander up when provoked, on their own. Stay well and upright.


Oh, SQM, keep stirring that pot. Yours brings us an interesting gumbo. So different than the girls from MacBeth who have been visiting with their cauldron bubbling, toiling, and troubling trying to get us upset and ending up with us  at them.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> you are so correct. Still hate Alito for his idiotic behavior during President Obama's speech. Is that Man that stupid or does he get paid for acting so. Perhaps an investigation is in order.


His behavior was adolescent to the degree that his colleagues on the court should have been mortified. Typical behavior of a teen aged jerk when the teacher is giving a lesson he doesn't understand.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Oh, SQM, keep stirring that pot. Yours brings us an interesting gumbo. So different than the girls from MacBeth who have been visiting with their cauldron bubbling, toiling, and troubling trying to get us upset and ending up with us  at them.


Okey Doke. Always happy to oblige.


----------



## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> The last few articles I read conjecture that older parents tend to have a greater risk of having autistic children. I had seen studies that eggs start to deteriorate as a woman ages which may be a cause of some forms of retardation in children of older mothers at a higher percentage than among younger mothers. But now they are studying whether the little swimmers break down as a man ages increasing the danger to older fathers regarding autistic offspring. For the sake of future generations, I certainly hope they find the cause or causes and find ways to deal with it. Also hope they find ways to help the poor kids with cystic fibrosis.


This may be the case with some autistic children but definitely not in the case of my son. I was 33 years old when he was born, I fell pregnant two months before I turned 33, and my husband was also 33 years old. I definitely would not call 33 being old. When my son was 2 years old he attended a special kindergarten for children with problems and I was very friendly with another mother who was a few years younger than I was and she had a daughter who was very severely affected with autism. I have read some time ago that there could be a genetic link in autism on the fathers side. There is an increased risk of Down's syndrome with an older mother but younger mothers have also given birth to children who suffer from Down's syndrome.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Do keep your facts straight. I posted to Designer. But why let facts get in the way of your "classy" BS. This way you and Marilyn can stay on your fantasy high road. Boy is that gonna hurt when you fall off.


Designer here:
I was not aware of that. We have something the same here. But Solo, that doesn't change anything. That Policeman abused that l4 year old. That is what is upsetting to me. What started it, who was wrong etc. etc. is not anything I am worrying about. None of those boys were talking back they all sat on the grass except those who tried to stop him from attacking her at least the were trying to take his attention off of her in my opinion. No one had a gun or any other weapon.

She was a l4 year old child who, when he came back from pointing is gun at other young people, had not moved or done anything to cause him or anyone else problems. He still grabbed her (it looked as if it was by her hair) he weighed double what she did or close to it.He threw her face first into the grass and he sat on her back and screamed at her. She didn't move and he didn't get off. She asked to speak to her Momma no one dared to try to help her. Nothing made it right in my opinion. Nor was there any excuse for his actions. Do you agree with that Part of it. If not, why?

I am not taking you on - I really wonder if what he did was okay with you. Leave out the Politics, I am.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Just Beachy said:


> Eeew, no. Once was enough. Blech


Hilarious! "Once?" You've had at least 800 user names by now, and you probably don't even know how many visits there and think no one notices. I wonder how long it takes before Admin deletes this user name.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

sumpleby said:


> Bernie Sanders is great. However, the Democratic party has to consider something when nominating a candidate for election: how much chance does that candidate have of being elected over the Republican nominee?


Zero chance. He'll pull votes from Hillary, too, but at least Hillary can use him to warm up and practice for the debates. IMO Bernie is giving Hillary fits presently. He is so far left he is forcing Hillary to move to his right and that makes her closer to Obama who she is trying to separate herself. Interesting to watch Bernie's approval rates and position climb while Hillary's drops correspondingly. She's probably ticked he entered the race; I'm thrilled because I believe he has zero chance to become the Dem nominee. Dems would sooner vote for Fauxchontis Liarwatha if they truly want an extreme Lib but not a socialist.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

knitpresentgifts said:


> Zero chance. He'll pull votes from Hillary too.


Kills me to admit this but you are right. He will be another Nader.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> Kills me to admit this but you are right. He will be another Nader.


Unless they test the wind and end up joining forces with her as candidate for pres and him as her running mate. That would be the dynamic duo. Unless the male ego gets in the way.


----------



## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Unless they test the wind and end up joining forces with her as candidate for pres and him as her running mate. That would be the dynamic duo. Unless the male ego gets in the way.


Do you think America is ready for a woman and a Jew? I don't think so. Plus Sanders is too anti-establishment. He will not be an asset.


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Well said and excellent advice. Now if people do not stop feeding oxygen to the problem someone will be handing out smacks up the side of the head all around.


Guess you should have kept your mouth shut and not responded to me first like you did, huh?


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Just Beachy said:


> Just checked out that other thread mentioned here.
> 
> At least in this thread the topic goes from one interesting news item to the next.
> 
> ...


And you do Lisa? All you are capable of is insulting Christians and calling everyone a racist. Oh, and insulting every Republican that ever lived. No one has ever said you're the brightest bulb in any pack.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

damemary said:


> It doesn't get much better than Bernie's explanation. No BS there.


OMG - how can anyone defend that? I hadn't read that.Thanks for the link. unbelievable.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

SQM said:


> Do you think America is ready for a woman and a Jew? I don't think so. Plus Sanders is too anti-establishment. He will not be an asset.


I must concede you are probably right.

Did anybody here read the Jewish Press maybe 20 years ago when they ran a comic strip called _Irving, the First Jewish President_? It involved things like kashering the White House kitchen, arranging a schedule for employees to turn lights off and on for Shabbos, and similar minutiae, as well as Irving's down to earth shmoozing approach to International diplomacy.

Of course, world matters were not in as dreadful and incendiary a mess as they are now. And we know where to direct our thank you notes for that.

And I will end with

The first Jewish president calls up his mother and invites her over for Passover. Characteristically, his mother immediately begins complaining.

"Oiy, I'll need to book a flight and it's going to cost so much - it is just too much of a bother."

Her son counters, "Mom! I'm the President! I'll hire a private jet for you!

"Oiy, I'll need to catch a taxi and carry my luggage. It's just too much!"

"Mom! I'm the President! I'll pick you up in my limo! Then my guards will carry your luggage for you!"

"Oiy, I'll need to book a hotel."

"Mom! Don't be ridiculous! I'm the President! You can stay at the White House!"

"Okay, fine," she finally acquiesces. Two minutes later her friend Sophie, calls.

"So, Miriam, what's new?"

"Oiy, I'm going to my son for Pesach."

"Who, the doctor?"

"No, the other one."


----------



## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

GWPlver said:


> Designer, I truly don't think they do agree with the one who should not be named (TOWSNBN). Those on D&P seem to be decent and intelligent individuals, able to think for themselves and very caring. When she is not posting, they are quite decent.


You know this how? Everyone on D&P are true and loyal friends. Each also knows how sick the posters on this thread are and, therefore, avoid posting here. They ALL were pleasant and polite to everyone on KP, and we all were insulted ad nauseam by the Liberal bullies so most no longer respond (or read) on the Lib's threads, me included. We believe it to be a complete waste of time and futile for an intelligent discussion, and we are _right_!

The D&P posters are all intelligent and smart enough to avoid and ignore those bullies who post here. They are all MORE than decent no matter who is posting where.

Although none of your business, we are socially active and in contact with one another both in person and by other means other than KP. You, as usual, are not knowledgable and know nothing about our friendships.

What a self-serving and disgraceful way you speak about people you don't even know. You just proved the point of why they don't post here and ignore the Libs who frequent this thread or wherever the bullies post.


----------



## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> . Just excerpted this paragraph:
> 
> The D&P posters are all intelligent and smart enough to avoid and ignore those bullies who post here. They are all MORE than decent no matter who is posting where.
> 
> .


So are you saying you are unintelligent and too dumb to avoid people who post here? And that you are indecent enough to post here? If our little corner of heaven is so repugnant to you why do you keep coming back? You seem so enamored with us you can't stay away.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Ladies, we need a lighter note.
> 
> I'm attaching a photo of a barn swallow who, despite our efforts to discourage nest-building, succeeded in building a nest within inches of our main entrance/exit. Yesterday, when she was away I used a mirror to check and sure enough, she has laid four tiny eggs. She seems either unfazed by our comings and goings or she is a very brave mama bird. I speak gently to her when I pass the nest.
> 
> Messy? Yes. But there is something lovely about watching the nurturing of new life. Sweet.


That is so sweet! Animals know when their chosen humans won't harm them, that's why she's nested with you Green!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Just Beachy said:


> Hey, do those psych wards have the series of tubes they now call "The Internets"?


 :XD: :XD: :XD:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> You'll have to ask one of the escapees over on the Diaper Pail. They might know.


I don't think so!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Somewhere I have a photo of a Tawny Frogmouth that flew into our kitchen in 1987. The photo shows him calmly sitting on top of the milk container on the bench. He was absolutely beautiful. We turned the light off so he would go back outside. After sitting there for about 15 minutes he flew off with hardly a sound. He just made an every so gentle fluttering sound when he flew off and he looked so soft. Such a beautiful creature.
> 
> This is not the photo we took, it is an image from the web so show what a tawny frogmouth looks like.


So gorgeous! I adore owls; so intelligent, calm and very wise.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> DGreen
> thank you for the lovely story. We have 10 Nests at different places under the overhang. Doves, Robins, Cardinals, Sparrows, Baltimore Orioles all have produced young which have left the Nests. An Oriole smartly build a Nest in a Large Birdcage which we have outside. Some Nests are in Wreaths hanging on Tree Trunks. It is very lively around here. The Cardinals are exquisite Nest builders and the Doves are simply dumb doing that and frequently occupy the Nest build by a different bird. We also have a big Owl coming for a visit just about every Night and I hope she does not steal my Baby Rabbits. As soon as I step outside the Owl starts a conversation and when I speak to her she answers back. Some Neighbors thought that she is not real. Among the Sparrows coming to the feeders is a yellow Canary. Not the first one to hang with Sparrows.


I would LOVE to live among these nests! We have thousands of birds around us but we're inner suburban so no doubt the nests are further out or high atop the trees. Birds are our barometer of peace I think.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> People my age are parents of people in their 50's! I consider anybody young enough for me to have diapered to be a spring chicken.


You're ageless Marilyn. Lovely and ageless!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Until a little while ago, and I will be again, SPRY IN MY EIGHTIES. So you have lots of time just go for what you want to do. Don't even think about getting old (you can't stop that anyway) and enjoy yourself every day. Works for me even though it has been a bit more challenging this past little while. I still believe it is the best most fun way of growing old. If you worry about it it will put a pall on your life. Deal with what you have to and enjoy all the rest.


Such wise words Designer. I do wish I had that attitude as a much younger person. So much time wasted worrying about stupid things that never really mattered. With maturity comes this knowledge and one can finally breath!


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

damemary said:


> I have two quail families who march to my backdoor (glass to the floor) to let me know they're ready for breakfast. DH can't resist either.


There you are Dame! Good to see you.


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Anyone who is familiar with this thread has already heard my ceaseless ranting about the evils of money in politics. I believe the SCOTUS ruling on Citizens United to be a disaster of critical proportion and has accelerated our decline as a democracy. I believe that no corporation should be allowed to contribute to anyone seeking elected office and that violations should be swift, severe and certain.
> 
> We need a constitutional convention to overturn Citizens United and to accomplish my second point.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup:


----------



## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> And another of my heroes, Robert Reish. No BS there.


I greatly admire those who are able to intellectually articulate the truth.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

knitpresentgifts said:


> You know this how? Everyone on D&P are true and loyal friends. Each also knows how sick the posters on this thread are and, therefore, avoid posting here. They ALL were pleasant and polite to everyone on KP, and we all were insulted ad nauseam by the Liberal bullies so most no longer respond (or read) on the Lib's threads, me included. We believe it to be a complete waste of time and futile for an intelligent discussion, and we are _right_!
> 
> The D&P posters are all intelligent and smart enough to avoid and ignore those bullies who post here. They are all MORE than decent no matter who is posting where.
> 
> ...


YOU INCLUDED???????


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> Such wise words Designer. I do wish I had that attitude as a much younger person. So much time wasted worrying about stupid things that never really mattered. With maturity comes this knowledge and one can finally breath!


I am so glad Wombat ! If you spend your life worrying about growing old or other things you can't change you sentence your self to a life of unhappiness. If you refuse to do that there are problems enough so best to just ignore them if you can and live without worrying about unnecesary things. I found that the worse things got when they got bad, I imagined them getting even worse which was so foolish. Finally I decided not to allow myself to worry about things I had no control over. It was difficult at first but it changes your life.


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Designer here:
> I was not aware of that. We have something the same here. But Solo, that doesn't change anything. That Policeman abused that l4 year old. That is what is upsetting to me. What started it, who was wrong etc. etc. is not anything I am worrying about. None of those boys were talking back they all sat on the grass except those who tried to stop him from attacking her at least the were trying to take his attention off of her in my opinion. No one had a gun or any other weapon.
> 
> She was a l4 year old child who, when he came back from pointing is gun at other young people, had not moved or done anything to cause him or anyone else problems. He still grabbed her (it looked as if it was by her hair) he weighed double what she did or close to it.He threw her face first into the grass and he sat on her back and screamed at her. She didn't move and he didn't get off. She asked to speak to her Momma no one dared to try to help her. Nothing made it right in my opinion. Nor was there any excuse for his actions. Do you agree with that Part of it? If not, why?
> ...


----------



## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Designer here:
> I was not aware of that. We have something the same here. But Solo, that doesn't change anything. That Policeman abused that l4 year old. That is what is upsetting to me. What started it, who was wrong etc. etc. is not anything I am worrying about. None of those boys were talking back they all sat on the grass except those who tried to stop him from attacking her at least the were trying to take his attention off of her in my opinion. No one had a gun or any other weapon.
> 
> She was a l4 year old child who, when he came back from pointing is gun at other young people, had not moved or done anything to cause him or anyone else problems. He still grabbed her (it looked as if it was by her hair) he weighed double what she did or close to it.He threw her face first into the grass and he sat on her back and screamed at her. She didn't move and he didn't get off. She asked to speak to her Momma no one dared to try to help her. Nothing made it right in my opinion. Nor was there any excuse for his actions. Do you agree with that Part of it? If not, why?
> ...


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> So are you saying you are unintelligent and too dumb to avoid people who post here? And that you are indecent enough to post here? If our little corner of heaven is so repugnant to you why do you keep coming back? You seem so enamored with us you can't stay away.


Marilyn, you are so correct. She is stupid and dumb and doesn't know any better than to post where no one wants her. Her liberal envy is so obvious not to mention unbecoming much like a baboon baring it's bright red rump for attention. She wants to be one of us desperately and welcomed by us on our threads, our little bit of heaven on KP. She is forever to be locked out of our wonderful and enlightened realm and doomed to stand outside the gates. She barks at us like a dingo in the night and if she is very lucky one of us will throw her a little scrap that she eagerly snaps up and then grovels in the dirt and crawls back for more. She repeatedly humiliates herself with her unending diatribes just further proving to all what a foolish wanton creature she is. She doesn't even realize what an ugly spectacle she makes of herself whenever she shows up. Any sane person could put two and two together and would be far to embarrassed to ever show themselves on any liberal thread ever again. She is several cards short of a full deck and so she has lost all self-control and prances around with reckless abandon. We are her sweet addiction and she cannot break free. 'Tis a pity. Centuries ago she would have been a court jester at the beck and call of the queen and so she is today acting the little toady for all to point at and laugh.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Marilyn, you are so correct. She is stupid and dumb and doesn't know any better than to post where no one wants her. Her liberal envy is so obvious not to mention unbecoming much like a baboon baring it's bright red rump for attention. She wants to be one of us desperately and welcomed by us on our threads, our little bit of heaven on KP. She is forever to be locked out of our wonderful and enlightened realm and doomed to stand outside the gates. She barks at us like a dingo in the night and if she is very lucky one of us will throw her a little scrap that she eagerly snaps up and then grovels in the dirt and crawls back for more. She repeatedly humiliates herself with her unending diatribes just further proving to all what a foolish wanton creature she is. She doesn't even realize what an ugly spectacle she makes of herself whenever she shows up. Any sane person could put two and two together and would be far to embarrassed to ever show themselves on any liberal thread ever again. She is several cards short of a full deck and so she has lost all self-control and prances around with reckless abandon. We are her sweet addiction and she cannot break free. 'Tis a pity. Centuries ago she would have been a court jester at the beck and call of the queen and so she is today acting the little toady for all to point at and laugh.


Gee, this deserves a publisher. With just a little more steam, you have the beginning of a best seller.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Marilyn, you are so correct. She is stupid and dumb and doesn't know any better than to post where no one wants her. Her liberal envy is so obvious not to mention unbecoming much like a baboon baring it's bright red rump for attention. She wants to be one of us desperately and welcomed by us on our threads, our little bit of heaven on KP. She is forever to be locked out of our wonderful and enlightened realm and doomed to stand outside the gates. She barks at us like a dingo in the night and if she is very lucky one of us will throw her a little scrap that she eagerly snaps up and then grovels in the dirt and crawls back for more. She repeatedly humiliates herself with her unending diatribes just further proving to all what a foolish wanton creature she is. She doesn't even realize what an ugly spectacle she makes of herself whenever she shows up. Any sane person could put two and two together and would be far to embarrassed to ever show themselves on any liberal thread ever again. She is several cards short of a full deck and so she has lost all self-control and prances around with reckless abandon. We are her sweet addiction and she cannot break free. 'Tis a pity. Centuries ago she would have been a court jester at the beck and call of the queen and so she is today acting the little toady for all to point at and laugh.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: You crack me up Cheeks!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> Do you think America is ready for a woman and a Jew? I don't think so. Plus Sanders is too anti-establishment. He will not be an asset.


America thought there would never be a Catholic or black man in the WH, SQ. I think America is ready for Hillary and/or Bernie.
Keep your eye on Martin O'Malley. I think he may rise in the polls in the next few months.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Marilyn, you are so correct. She is stupid and dumb and doesn't know any better than to post where no one wants her. Her liberal envy is so obvious not to mention unbecoming much like a baboon baring it's bright red rump for attention. She wants to be one of us desperately and welcomed by us on our threads, our little bit of heaven on KP. She is forever to be locked out of our wonderful and enlightened realm and doomed to stand outside the gates. She barks at us like a dingo in the night and if she is very lucky one of us will throw her a little scrap that she eagerly snaps up and then grovels in the dirt and crawls back for more. She repeatedly humiliates herself with her unending diatribes just further proving to all what a foolish wanton creature she is. She doesn't even realize what an ugly spectacle she makes of herself whenever she shows up. Any sane person could put two and two together and would be far to embarrassed to ever show themselves on any liberal thread ever again. She is several cards short of a full deck and so she has lost all self-control and prances around with reckless abandon. We are her sweet addiction and she cannot break free. 'Tis a pity. Centuries ago she would have been a court jester at the beck and call of the queen and so she is today acting the little toady for all to point at and laugh.


 :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: 
Thanks, Cheeky. I needed a good laugh!


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> Do keep your facts straight. I posted to Designer. But why let facts get in the way of your "classy" BS. This way you and Marilyn can stay on your fantasy high road. Boy is that gonna hurt when you fall off.


You know this from experience, solow? Or are you referring to the experience of your sidekick?


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

SQM said:


> Gee, this deserves a publisher. With just a little more steam, you have the beginning of a best seller.


In the non fiction department.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> In the non fiction department.


 :thumbup: :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> You're ageless Marilyn. Lovely and ageless!


Thank you for the kind words. Our bodies may give us a few nasty surprises, but it is what is between our ears that counts!


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Marilyn, you are so correct. She is stupid and dumb and doesn't know any better than to post where no one wants her. Her liberal envy is so obvious not to mention unbecoming much like a baboon baring it's bright red rump for attention. She wants to be one of us desperately and welcomed by us on our threads, our little bit of heaven on KP. She is forever to be locked out of our wonderful and enlightened realm and doomed to stand outside the gates. She barks at us like a dingo in the night and if she is very lucky one of us will throw her a little scrap that she eagerly snaps up and then grovels in the dirt and crawls back for more. She repeatedly humiliates herself with her unending diatribes just further proving to all what a foolish wanton creature she is. She doesn't even realize what an ugly spectacle she makes of herself whenever she shows up. Any sane person could put two and two together and would be far to embarrassed to ever show themselves on any liberal thread ever again. She is several cards short of a full deck and so she has lost all self-control and prances around with reckless abandon. We are her sweet addiction and she cannot break free. 'Tis a pity. Centuries ago she would have been a court jester at the beck and call of the queen and so she is today acting the little toady for all to point at and laugh.


I nominate you as our Red Queen, who is Queen of Hearts to us who love you. Ruby orb on your silver mace and silver scepter to ward off evil ones.


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## knitpresentgifts (May 21, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Marilyn, you are so correct. She is stupid and dumb and doesn't know any better than to post where no one wants her. Her liberal envy is so obvious not to mention unbecoming much like a baboon baring it's bright red rump for attention. She wants to be one of us desperately and welcomed by us on our threads, our little bit of heaven on KP. She is forever to be locked out of our wonderful and enlightened realm and doomed to stand outside the gates. She barks at us like a dingo in the night and if she is very lucky one of us will throw her a little scrap that she eagerly snaps up and then grovels in the dirt and crawls back for more. She repeatedly humiliates herself with her unending diatribes just further proving to all what a foolish wanton creature she is. She doesn't even realize what an ugly spectacle she makes of herself whenever she shows up. Any sane person could put two and two together and would be far to embarrassed to ever show themselves on any liberal thread ever again. She is several cards short of a full deck and so she has lost all self-control and prances around with reckless abandon. We are her sweet addiction and she cannot break free. 'Tis a pity. Centuries ago she would have been a court jester at the beck and call of the queen and so she is today acting the little toady for all to point at and laugh.


Oh dear Lord, are you ever a nut job. Liberal envy? :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: I think SQM and Knitter from Nebraska said it so well in their conversation about the Liberals (you being one); don't you agree? Love their exchange;



SQM said:


> De nada.
> 
> Peek in on these various threads to meet clever,thinking posters:
> 
> ...





Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Oh yes! Go on these threads! They consist of a bunch of ignorant bullies! If you like to be in a place where you're not allowed to think and must follow the party line, then by all means go there! Not one of them knows anything that wasn't covered on the daily news. Oh! But they are sooo clever! But then, they do say that ignorance is bliss! If you disagree with anything they say, you will get a verbal beating and then they will talk about you behind your back. Its just like high school!


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

That's our Ruby Cheeks. Rah!

I smell something rotten. Am I imagining things? Perhaps someone forgot to take out the trash. I'll deodorize if I happen upon it. Maybe Raid is needed! Oh no!



MarilynKnits said:


> I nominate you as our Red Queen, who is Queen of Hearts to us who love you. Ruby orb on your silver mace and silver scepter to ward off evil ones.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

damemary said:


> That's our Ruby Cheeks. Rah!
> 
> I smell something rotten. Am I imagining things? Perhaps someone forgot to take out the trash. I'll deodorize if I happen upon it. Maybe Raid is needed! Oh no!


No imagination. Rantings from the Cuckoo's Nest.

Lovely to see you back, Dame. I am a shoe groupie and love your avatar.


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

Oh, dear Lord! She's STILL here banging her head against the wall. Our number one masochist. Don't you think she hates herself for repeatedly posting here?


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## cookiequeen (Jun 15, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> No imagination. Rantings from the Cuckoo's Nest.
> 
> Lovely to see you back, Dame. I am a shoe groupie and love your avatar.


Please define "shoe groupie." I think I might be one.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

Great minds. I'm more comfort oriented in shoes now, but I've loved special ones all my life. Good to 'see' everyone (with exceptions. And we all know who that is. Just so I don't say it out loud. )



MarilynKnits said:


> No imagination. Rantings from the Cuckoo's Nest.
> 
> Lovely to see you back, Dame. I am a shoe groupie and love your avatar.


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

I hear some masochists are just fools. Whatever fits. Or never fits.



cookiequeen said:


> Oh, dear Lord! She's STILL here banging her head against the wall. Our number one masochist. Don't you think she hates herself for repeatedly posting here?


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## damemary (Mar 14, 2012)

When you have to ask, you know. A certain 'look' you simply must buy? A look to turn a fetish's eye? Color that makes you smile? Generally develops comfort criteria as you age. IMHO



cookiequeen said:


> Please define "shoe groupie." I think I might be one.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Designer1234 said:


> Designer here:
> I was not aware of that. We have something the same here. But Solo, that doesn't change anything. That Policeman abused that l4 year old. That is what is upsetting to me. What started it, who was wrong etc. etc. is not anything I am worrying about. None of those boys were talking back they all sat on the grass except those who tried to stop him from attacking her at least the were trying to take his attention off of her in my opinion. No one had a gun or any other weapon.
> 
> She was a l4 year old child who, when he came back from pointing is gun at other young people, had not moved or done anything to cause him or anyone else problems. He still grabbed her (it looked as if it was by her hair) he weighed double what she did or close to it.He threw her face first into the grass and he sat on her back and screamed at her. She didn't move and he didn't get off. She asked to speak to her Momma no one dared to try to help her. Nothing made it right in my opinion. Nor was there any excuse for his actions. Do you agree with that Part of it. If not, why?
> ...


I agree with you, Designer. I watched the video just once--that's all I could stand. It left me with a sick feeling, like seeing a parent screaming at and berating his or her child in public, or a husband abusing his wife--just wrong wrong wrong. I think a lot of people feel the same way, which is why so many are reacting defensively by focusing on the episode as a whole and how (supposedly) the kids were unruly and out of control.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> Kills me to admit this but you are right. He will be another Nader.


True, but she'll get the votes back the day after the nomination, when they shake hands and he tell folks what a swell President she'll be. :roll:


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Marilyn, you are so correct. She is stupid and dumb and doesn't know any better than to post where no one wants her. Her liberal envy is so obvious not to mention unbecoming much like a baboon baring it's bright red rump for attention. She wants to be one of us desperately and welcomed by us on our threads, our little bit of heaven on KP. She is forever to be locked out of our wonderful and enlightened realm and doomed to stand outside the gates. She barks at us like a dingo in the night and if she is very lucky one of us will throw her a little scrap that she eagerly snaps up and then grovels in the dirt and crawls back for more. She repeatedly humiliates herself with her unending diatribes just further proving to all what a foolish wanton creature she is. She doesn't even realize what an ugly spectacle she makes of herself whenever she shows up. Any sane person could put two and two together and would be far to embarrassed to ever show themselves on any liberal thread ever again. She is several cards short of a full deck and so she has lost all self-control and prances around with reckless abandon. We are her sweet addiction and she cannot break free. 'Tis a pity. Centuries ago she would have been a court jester at the beck and call of the queen and so she is today acting the little toady for all to point at and laugh.


Cheeky Blighter
(Court Jester) well stated. BRavo.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> True, but she'll get the votes back the day after the nomination, when they shake hands and he tell folks what a swell President she'll be. :roll:


susanmos2000
you are on track.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I tried hitting "quote reply" three times, and nothing comes up. So I am responding to kpg's post, of which she searched (in such a Christian-like manner) to find whatever dirt she could use against me.

Kpg, it's no secret to anyone that I used to make my postings as antagonistically as possible. I admit that I feel as strongly about my opinions, as anyone else does. If I didn't think I were right, I wouldn't bother. Who would? I came to realize that my attitude (and other's) was not conducive to any kind of discussion. I had to examine my motives for being here. Was I here to fight? To insult others? To feel superior? To feel hatred and share that hatred with others? Was it more important for me to think I was right, or to share what I knew and believed? To be a positive influence or a battering ram? As I shared with you in the past, I felt as if, my spirit were being moved to change the way I was behaving. I could not be a living testimony to GOD'S forgiveness and grace, if I couldn't LIVE, forgiveness and grace. I heard the message that I was wasting my life fighting and hating. There was no way I could be an influence on anyone, as I was. So, I changed!

Maybe you think that you were very clever to go back and pull up an insulting comment that I made a long time ago. I don't think you're so clever. First of all, all of these people (with the exception of one or two), knew me then. Things between them and I, changed one day, when I apologized for how I'd been behaving. They asked me to leave and I did. There was no point in staying and fighting. That wasn't who GOD wanted me to be. No one learns anything from arguing and fighting. No one can change the hearts and minds of others, through hatred! Second of all, I pray for you, that you might be able to let go of the hatred that is building in your heart and soul. JESUS taught us to forgive, but he also told us that there was a time to shake the dust off of your feet, and leave. I honestly think that, that time has long passed for you. You are way beyond being able to do the work of our Father. You are beyond learning how or why others think as they do. You are beyond having any positive influence at all. 

I've asked you to leave many times, because when you come here (or anywhere else the libs hang out), you become someone else. I've read what those on D&P have said about your good qualities, and I don't doubt them, because I know and care about some of them. I respect them! But when you come here, you become possessed by your hatred and anger. You can't let the past go, and neither can the libs. SO, WHY ARE YOU HERE? Have you asked yourself that?

I have listened to the libs. They want what is best for all, as we do. We just disagree on what is best. BUT, if we refuse to listen to each other, how can any of us influence others? How can we ever make the changes needed in this world, if we can't come together on one single thing? Often, it isn't even about compromise. It's about understanding what each has to say and what they think. I am trying! 

I think that maybe you see me as a traitor. I'm sorry you feel that way. I loved the comraderie on D&P. I loved talking about gardening, recipes, crafts, and the rest. But I didn't want to have to pick sides. I have my own opinions and interests, and I found out very quickly, that it's "your way, or the highway". I chose the highway! There are still some on D&P that I share PMs with. I count them among my friends. I wouldn't think of going over there to cause problems and grief for them. The other day, you brought up my feeling hurt, because I posted kind Christmas wishes to my friends and got ignored. You're right. I was hurt. But mostly I was saddened, that even when it came to such an important Christian holiday, my Christian friends couldn't acknowledge me in public, for fear of being judged badly. THAT makes me sad! So, it might have made you feel good, to have hurt me. But I have long since, forgiven my friends and I've forgiven you! You have the power to stop this festering hatred. Please use that power!


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I tried hitting "quote reply" three times, and nothing comes up. So I am responding to kpg's post, of which she searched (in such a Christian-like manner) to find whatever dirt she could use against me.
> 
> Kpg, it's no secret to anyone that I used to make my postings as antagonistically as possible. I admit that I feel as strongly about my opinions, as anyone else does. If I didn't think I were right, I wouldn't bother. Who would? I came to realize that my attitude (and other's) was not conducive to any kind of discussion. I had to examine my motives for being here. Was I here to fight? To insult others? To feel superior? To feel hatred and share that hatred with others? Was it more important for me to think I was right, or to share what I knew and believed? To be a positive influence or a battering ram? As I shared with you in the past, I felt as if, my spirit were being moved to change the way I was behaving. I could not be a living testimony to GOD'S forgiveness and grace, if I couldn't LIVE, forgiveness and grace. I heard the message that I was wasting my life fighting and hating. There was no way I could be an influence on anyone, as I was. So, I changed!
> 
> ...


Thankfully my computer would not let me include the quote either so I let her post go. I am so glad that I did. How eloquently you posted, Gnebs. You wrote purely and beautifully. Please add my signature to your writing.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Thankfully my computer would not let me include the quote either so I let her post go. I am so glad that I did. How eloquently you posted, Gnebs. You wrote purely and beautifully. Please add my signature to your writing.


Thank you, SQM!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Nebs, I personally agree with everything you said above and I agree with SQM.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

I have a little bit of news about the babies. Last week they said that Kayla might come home this week. But now they're saying it will be Leo. If he continues to do well, he could come home Wednesday or Thursday. Who would have thought?!? He's the smallest. Thomas is still on a tiny bit of oxygen, so he can't nurse or take a bottle yet. They don't seem concerned though. It's very common in preemies. The girls are doing great, but sometimes they forget to stop and breathe while theyre sucking. So, their heart rates drop. When they do that, we are to tip the bottle so they're sucking air. Who would have thought that, either? I thought sucking air was a big no, no, but apparently not. Once they're latched on to the nipple, they don't want them to let go. They've found that they suck very little air, less than when they cry. Anyway, here's pics i took last night.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

And...


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Nebs, I personally agree with everything you said above and I agree with SQM.


Thank you, Shirley!


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Nebs. They are growing and are all looking so good. It will make it a bit easier for the parents if the children come home one at a time -but not too much time between them. 

They are all doing so well. Soon they will be running around the house and making everyone laugh! Those first years are so wonderful! Think of what you have to look forward to. 

The problems on this and other threads are so minor in comparison!! 

You will love them so much! 

I hope you are managing to get a bit of rest. Shirley


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Poor Purl said:


> Tell me something: when someone you'd rather not hear from drops in to set you straight on an incident and says she knows ALL about it while you know nothing, would you react any better?
> 
> Her telling all of us "the truth" while insulting us doesn't deserve any other response. It's like when you told us all about the GDP being 2%. Should we take your word for it?


I read the responses and most didn't know the facts of the case or didn't think they were important enough to matter. They just went for the race card from the outset.

I don't really care whether or not you want to hear from someone. As your group constantly points out, this is an open forum and anyone, whether they are liked or not, can post to any thread as long as they are current members in good standing according the the R&R's of KP.

Re the GDP - of course you don't have to take my word for it. The figures are calculated by the Bureau of Economic Analysis, (BEA), which is part of the Dept. of Commerce. They are the ones that put it all together and show whether the economy is doing well or not. Makes no difference to me what you think.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> Nebs. They are growing and are all looking so good. It will make it a bit easier for the parents if the children come home one at a time -but not too much time between them.
> 
> They are all doing so well. Soon they will be running around the house and making everyone laugh! Those first years are so wonderful! Think of what you have to look forward to.
> 
> ...


When I read this, all I could is smile. :-D It's true! What joy, I have to look forward to!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> I read the responses and most didn't know the facts of the case or didn't think they were important enough to matter. They just went for the race card from the outset.
> 
> I don't really care whether or not you want to hear from someone. As your group constantly points out, this is an open forum and anyone, whether they are liked or not, can post to any thread as long as they are current members in good standing according the the R&R's of KP.
> 
> Re the GDP - of course you don't have to take my word for it. The figures are calculated by the Bureau of Economic Analysis, (BEA), which is part of the Dept. of Commerce. They are the ones that put it all together and show whether the economy is doing well or not. Makes no difference to me what you think.


I think that most had read the facts and were aware of what instigated the entire thing. But once they saw the way the officer behaved, the rest just wasn't important. There have been far too many cases of police officers inflaming situations, rather than defusing them. Personally, I thought it ridiculous that the officer even thought, that he could get all of those kids to sit quietly. Really? They did what I would expect teenagers to do. Teenagers brains are not fully developed. It's wishful thinking to expect them to act rationally. Their only thoughts were to mouth off, help their friend, or run away. I think that police officers should be trained in how to deal with people of all ages. And I think they should be taught to think before they act. This could have ended very badly. I can only hope that other officers will watch this and realize what could happen, if they allow themselves to lose control.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think that most had read the facts and were aware of what instigated the entire thing. But once they saw the way the officer behaved, the rest just wasn't important. There have been far too many cases of police officers inflaming situations, rather than defusing them. Personally, I thought it ridiculous that the officer even thought, that he could get all of those kids to sit quietly. Really? They did what I would expect teenagers to do. Teenagers brains are not fully developed. It's wishful thinking to expect them to act rationally. Their only thoughts were to mouth off, help their friend, or run away. I think that police officers should be trained in how to deal with people of all ages. And I think they should be taught to think before they act. This could have ended very badly. I can only hope that other officers will watch this and realize what could happen, if they allow themselves to lose control.


 I agree, KFN. The battle roll the cop did on the video made it clear what kind of cop he was. Who does that?


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> You can't put people in the same restricted area when you have never talked to them, or been in any
> way insulted by them. There are quite a few who stay there and leave us alone. I have no issue with them disagreeing completely with us and I think when we attack them there we don't do ourselves any favor. We lower ourselves to the same place KPG, Solo and the couple or three of the others who come here to pick a fight. Once again, my strong opinion. I am not here to judge people who leave us alone and who are part of that group. They are allowed their beliefs, and if they stay there and join in the way they want to I really believe we are wrong to go there.
> 
> Some of them, are decent people. I have been guilty as have some of them and some of us of putting those from the other thread under one heading. However, I know of some who DON'T come here and often don't discuss us. We discuss them, here and they are welcome to express their feelings there. Some however DON'T, so why attack them?
> ...


You certainly don't feel uncomfortable by posting to D&P and then coming back to your threads to tattle about how you were ignored by us. You don't consider that deliberately antagonizing? Well I suppose not, after all it is you doing the deed so it must be acceptable. You have one standard for your behavior and another for those you dislike.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> You certainly don't feel uncomfortable by posting to D&P and then coming back to your threads to tattle about how you were ignored by us. You don't consider that deliberately antagonizing? Well I suppose not, after all it is you doing the deed so it must be acceptable. You have one standard for your behavior and another for those you dislike.


Give it a rest, solo. You are the last one who should point fingers. You drip with honey over in D&P and drip with venom here. It's time to take your leave now. 
You don't consider your presence here antagonizing? It's the only reason that you are here. You can't survive a day without conflict.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I agree, KFN. The battle roll the cop did on the video made it clear what kind of cop he was. Who does that?


Who does that? Police who have received military training. Our police forces do target practice, using targets with pictures of the elderly, pregnant women and even children, on them. They're being taught that WE are the enemy. While that might be appropriate in Afghanistan or Iraq, it puts the rest of us in danger. What happened to "protect and serve"?


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

DGreen said:


> Anyone who is familiar with this thread has already heard my ceaseless ranting about the evils of money in politics. I believe the SCOTUS ruling on Citizens United to be a disaster of critical proportion and has accelerated our decline as a democracy. I believe that no corporation should be allowed to contribute to anyone seeking elected office and that violations should be swift, severe and certain.
> 
> We need a constitutional convention to overturn Citizens United and to accomplish my second point.
> 
> ...


I agree with you on getting big money out of politics. I would love to see the average citizen decide to run for office and know s/he would have a good chance at winning the seat, resulting in going back to the gov't actually representing the people. Thank you for your links.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> You certainly don't feel uncomfortable by posting to D&P and then coming back to your threads to tattle about how you were ignored by us. You don't consider that deliberately antagonizing? Well I suppose not, after all it is you doing the deed so it must be acceptable. You have one standard for your behavior and another for those you dislike.


Sometimes it's better to just say nothing at all.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> I agree with you on getting big money out of politics. I would love to see the average citizen decide to run for office and know s/he would have a good chance at winning the seat, resulting in going back to the gov't actually representing the people. Thank you for your links.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I agree!


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Designer1234 said:


> Designer here:
> I was not aware of that. We have something the same here. But Solo, that doesn't change anything. That Policeman abused that l4 year old. That is what is upsetting to me. What started it, who was wrong etc. etc. is not anything I am worrying about. None of those boys were talking back they all sat on the grass except those who tried to stop him from attacking her at least the were trying to take his attention off of her in my opinion. No one had a gun or any other weapon.
> 
> She was a l4 year old child who, when he came back from pointing is gun at other young people, had not moved or done anything to cause him or anyone else problems. He still grabbed her (it looked as if it was by her hair) he weighed double what she did or close to it.He threw her face first into the grass and he sat on her back and screamed at her. She didn't move and he didn't get off. She asked to speak to her Momma no one dared to try to help her. Nothing made it right in my opinion. Nor was there any excuse for his actions. Do you agree with that Part of it. If not, why?
> ...


I haven't said anything about the policeman's behavior one way or the other. For the record, I don't agree with what he did. I do know there is more to what happened then what is shown in the video or repeated by bystanders. Perhaps if the girl would have just done what he demanded, I'm sure they were demands as opposed to asking her, things would not have escalated the way they did. I'm also not sure that having all the video cameras around doesn't trigger something in everyone involved that only serves to alter the circumstances of the situation. In other words, some involved will be playing to the cameras and perhaps take things too far just for the reaction. It's hard to say without being there. I definitely disagree with you on not worrying about what caused the situation to begin with. I think the reason the police were called is important and sets the tone for what follows.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

cookiequeen said:


> Please define "shoe groupie." I think I might be one.


I love shoes and have for as long as I can remember. When I was young and at college I would get shoes at S.Klein on the Square (Union Square, NYC) to match my favorite outfits. I still remember some of my real gems. Now that I have arthritis and a replacement hip, I am stuck in flats and have to wear shoes with room for a lift in the left heel. So I shop for cute sneakers and sandals with closed backs like Keen, Sketcher, Merrell, in different colors. I volunteer at a large rummage sale a couple of times a year in the women's shoe department and am in my glory. If I can't wear them, I still have fun selling them.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> Thankfully my computer would not let me include the quote either so I let her post go. I am so glad that I did. How eloquently you posted, Gnebs. You wrote purely and beautifully. Please add my signature to your writing.


Yes, what Nebraska wrote was beautiful and very touching. She has a very fine heart.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> True, but she'll get the votes back the day after the nomination, when they shake hands and he tell folks what a swell President she'll be. :roll:


Quoted from http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/06/like_it_or_not_sanders_socialism_is_mainstream_edi.html#incart_most-comments

By Star-Ledger Editorial Board on June 15, 2015 at 7:45 AM, updated June 15, 2015 at 10:04 AM which includes pictures and access to a video conversation with Seth Meyers:

On Thursday, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), said that "in virtually every instance, what I'm saying is supported by a significant majority of the American people," which is a bold claim for someone who has been broadly labeled a "socialist" candidate in Democratic camouflage.

But it makes this a good time to consider whether that term is being applied accurately in the early innings of this 2016 campaign, rather than as a pejorative to dismiss Sanders' ideas.

Because so far, the Senator is showing the electorate that a rejection of this "socialism"  the concept, not the brainless epithet  is something that most voters would probably find unthinkable.

And if you consult the polls, Sanders' claim is not only right, he is positively mainstream.

He has made income inequality a central theme, and he wants to revamp the tax system so that the wealthy pay a larger share. Check and check: Gallup reports that 63 percent call wealth distribution unfair, and 52 percent favor heavier taxes on the rich.

He is scathing about how big money has corrupted politics, and 61 percent of agree that Citizens United should be overturned. That includes 71 percent of Republicans who want to limit campaign contributions.

He wants to reduce student debt, at a time when 79 percent believe that education is no longer affordable for everyone, and 82 percent support creating low-cost loans for education.

He believes government should be proactive to reverse global warming, which is consistent with 71 percent of Americans, while 48 percent of Republicans say they are more likely to vote for a candidate who fights climate change.

He also endorses a $15 federal minimum wage and believes that Wall Street banks should be shrunk, two concepts that poll very well.

Even the term "socialism" doesn't poll like it used to, because younger voters believe Sanders is espousing a broader social rights agenda. The 18-to-29 bloc even finds socialism (36 percent) almost as favorable as capitalism (39 percent).

Or perhaps they just know that socialist precepts, in large part, represent the civic and cultural foundation of our nation.

Consider: Many things we take for granted today were conceived by leftist coalitions that included Socialists and other Progressives, such as the eight-hour workday, women's suffrage, Medicare, and Social Security. Some were used as the platform for Eugene Debs' bid for the White House a century ago, though back then they called it "social insurance."

Labor rights, decent work conditions, and paid maternity leave were in large part socialist ideas, too, some championed by a Socialist congressman from the lower East Side named Meyer London.

And civil liberty was an ironclad tenet throughout our history  as long as your skin wasn't a tint darker that the majority - but when we interned Japanese Americans in 1942, one of the loudest objections was voiced by the prominent Socialist of the time, Norman Thomas.

The old memes have metastasized in the media, however, which is probably why Sanders doesn't get much attention. But clearly, 3,000 people didn't show up to see him in Minneapolis last week because they wanted to see a crackpot.

Steve Hendricks of the Columbia Journalism Review put it best: "For not going with the flow, and for challenging Hillary Clinton. . . .Sanders' entry into the race was greeted with story after story whose message  stated or understated, depending on the decorum of the messenger  was, 'This crank can't win.'"

Maybe that's true, but this crank's ideas resonate with a sizable majority of Americans. And for that reason alone, he deserves to be heard.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> I love shoes and have for as long as I can remember. When I was young and at college I would get shoes at S.Klein on the Square (Union Square, NYC) to match my favorite outfits. I still remember some of my real gems. Now that I have arthritis and a replacement hip, I am stuck in flats and have to wear shoes with room for a lift in the left heel. So I shop for cute sneakers and sandals with closed backs like Keen, Sketcher, Merrell, in different colors. I volunteer at a large rummage sale a couple of times a year in the women's shoe department and am in my glory. If I can't wear them, I still have fun selling them.


I hate shoes! I've busted every toe on my right foot save one, and no matter how diligently I search or how much money I spend I can never find a pair that fits comfortably. Heels are out--when I worked in an office I'd show up in smart suit and a pair of floppy oversized sneakers and change to a more formal pair just seconds before sitting behind my desk. If I had girls I'd discourage them from wearing anything but flats--nothing is worth the agony of attractive but stiff shoes pressing down on tender toes.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I tried hitting "quote reply" three times, and nothing comes up. So I am responding to kpg's post, of which she searched (in such a Christian-like manner) to find whatever dirt she could use against me.
> 
> Kpg, it's no secret to anyone that I used to make my postings as antagonistically as possible. I admit that I feel as strongly about my opinions, as anyone else does. If I didn't think I were right, I wouldn't bother. Who would? I came to realize that my attitude (and other's) was not conducive to any kind of discussion. I had to examine my motives for being here. Was I here to fight? To insult others? To feel superior? To feel hatred and share that hatred with others? Was it more important for me to think I was right, or to share what I knew and believed? To be a positive influence or a battering ram? As I shared with you in the past, I felt as if, my spirit were being moved to change the way I was behaving. I could not be a living testimony to GOD'S forgiveness and grace, if I couldn't LIVE, forgiveness and grace. I heard the message that I was wasting my life fighting and hating. There was no way I could be an influence on anyone, as I was. So, I changed!
> 
> ...


I am so happy you post here. We need point and counterpoint to reach the sorts of compromises that will do the greatest good and least harm to the most people. If we don't know and understand one another's views and reasons for those views, we cannot grow and learn.

I am truly sorry that some of your friends on the Conservative team are so cowed by one of theirs that they will not acknowledge friendship with you for fear of retaliation. What will that woman do? Make knitted voodoo dolls? Make a stew of newt's tongues and bats wings and cast an evil spell? You are made of sterner stuff and stand your ground and stay strong in your beliefs. I may not share some of the beliefs, but you have helped me understand them.

It is interesting that people on the liberal end of the spectrum have not hesitated to speak up whether their/our ideas were popular or not and to defend you when people disparaged you.

Bottom line, we are all hiking through this life together and have to move in a positive direction to make the journey a good one.

On a personal note, I loved seeing your children and grandchildren and wish them the greatest happiness and an occasional good night's sleep during the months until the babies sleep a solid 6 or 7 all at the same time. Wait until high school when they will want to sleep when they need to be awake! Virtual hugs to all.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I think that most had read the facts and were aware of what instigated the entire thing. But once they saw the way the officer behaved, the rest just wasn't important. There have been far too many cases of police officers inflaming situations, rather than defusing them. Personally, I thought it ridiculous that the officer even thought, that he could get all of those kids to sit quietly. Really? They did what I would expect teenagers to do. Teenagers brains are not fully developed. It's wishful thinking to expect them to act rationally. Their only thoughts were to mouth off, help their friend, or run away. I think that police officers should be trained in how to deal with people of all ages. And I think they should be taught to think before they act. This could have ended very badly. I can only hope that other officers will watch this and realize what could happen, if they allow themselves to lose control.


I think the police do a good job in most cases. That's not to say there aren't bad officers, because there are. Most officers only have a matter of seconds to size up a situation and take a course of action after arriving on the scene. Every situation is different due to the people involved. There is no cookie cutter response anymore. Perhaps the police need different training today than they did in the past. Maybe different courses at the academy are necessary instead of the ones that were sufficient years ago.

People also need to listen to what the police are saying and do as they say. The kids that listened and sat down posed no trouble for the police. It was the ones that didn't listen, and that includes the girl, who inflamed the situation and things got out of control. It's not one sided. It's so easy to be a Monday morning quarterback.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

susanmos2000 said:


> I hate shoes! I've busted every toe on my right foot save one, and no matter how diligently I search or how much money I spend I can never find a pair that fits comfortably. Heels are out--when I worked in an office I'd show up in smart suit and a pair of floppy oversized sneakers and change to a more formal pair just seconds before sitting behind my desk. If I had girls I'd discourage them from wearing anything but flats--nothing is worth the agony of attractive but stiff shoes pressing down on tender toes.


Oh, from this side of life with bunions that are partly hereditary, I don't think I would have gone higher than kitten heels instead of the 3 inchers in which I ran up and down subway stairs. It was really hard to resist cute shoes.

My high school colors were maroon and gold, and once I spotted gold canvas sneakers with maroon crepe soles at Bonwit Teller. I spent my own savings to get them although even they didn't make the maroon sacks we had as gym uniforms look any better.

I am sorry you have foot troubles. Have you tried Crocs for walking around shoes? They are loose and roomy and cushion your walk. My orthopedic doc said to wear them in the kitchen to avoid shin splints when I spend time on my feet cooking, and especially to wear them when I go to the grocery or big box stores with their concrete floors. And Lands End sneakers come in decent colors and styles and have give without pressure.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

SQM said:


> Do you think America is ready for a woman and a Jew? I don't think so. Plus Sanders is too anti-establishment. He will not be an asset.


Bernie or someone who is equally "anti establishment" is exactly what this country needs. Look where establishment politicians have got us....giving banks a slap on the wrist for financial predatory actions, trade agreements that cause loss of jobs and decreasing wages, lackluster environmental stewardship and opening the Arctic to Shell oil for drilling agreeing to more nuclear power plant construction. Continuation of Guantanamo, use of drones that kill children and innocent people, NSA abuse. If nice liberals would get a spine and vote for real alternatives instead of the same centrist crap that we have had from the time of Clinton I we might have a chance of some significant change in our country.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> I think the police do a good job in most cases. That's not to say there aren't bad officers, because there are. Most officers only have a matter of seconds to size up a situation and take a course of action after arriving on the scene. Every situation is different due to the people involved. There is no cookie cutter response anymore. Perhaps the police need different training today than they did in the past. Maybe different courses at the academy are necessary instead of the ones that were sufficient years ago.
> 
> People also need to listen to what the police are saying and do as they say. The kids that listened and sat down posed no trouble for the police. It was the ones that didn't listen, and that includes the girl, who inflamed the situation and things got out of control. It's not one sided. It's so easy to be a Monday morning quarterback.


What you say makes sense. Considering the numbers of interactions between police and the public, the incidents that end badly are minuscule. But they are the ones that get the publicity, something that we have to evaluate to determine how to defuse rather than escalate.

What is disturbing, though, is that so many of the really bad confrontations involve young Black people. One wonders whether the police would be as assertive or aggressive under identical circumstances if the situations arose with young white people.

I am not talking about carjackings or other instances where innocent people going about their personal lives are endangered. I would want the cops coming to my rescue, no holds barred! It is important that the police see the public as people for them to protect not as the enemy. Philosophically we are all on the same side, wanting peace and safety in our environs.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

So... I've been thinking about why so many of you like Bernie Sanders. When I read his letter to the CEOs, that Green posted on page 185, I was impressed. I thought I'd better find out more about him. But, what I read left me wondering whether you agree with everything he'd like to do or whether you even think it's possible, to do the things he'd like to do. I read that he calls himself a socialist, so I had to find out what he means by that. I did read his website, but all I found was election propaganda. So, I did a little more searching and came up with this. If anyone objects to it as representing Sanders, let me know.
http://sandiegofreepress.org/2015/06/bernie-sanders-is-a-democratic-socialist-what-does-that-term-mean/

According to this, he's for universal healthcare. That's a no brainer. I expected that. He's for guaranteed housing, providing ALL with the bare essentials of living. Right away, I thought...what are the bare essentials and who decides? And how will we pay for them? He is for free education. I thought, how many people would not be serious about getting an education, but just take it anyway because it's free? And if everyone is college educated, how will be left to fix our cars and appliances and do roofing and painting etc... And how would we pay for it? He's for a universal income. Everyone gets paid, just for being alive. You could work, or not work. Again, who's going to pay for it? He says he would guarantee jobs. How does anyone guarantee jobs? There were other things as well, but let's just look at these.

His solution to paying for everything is to make the rich, pay their "fair share". But what is fair? Is it fair to expect the rich to pay 90% of their income? Or 70%? If you think so, how is that fair? Is it fair to expect anyone to support those who choose not to work? Why is that fair? IMO, things are not fair now. The rich do not pay their fair share. But how is it fair to expect them to pay for everyone. And if you did, why wouldn't they just leave the country, and take their business elsewhere??? Where would the guaranteed jobs come from? If the government took over all industry and guaranteed jobs but didn't require you to work, who would do the work? Where would the money come from? How are you going to provide fair housing to everyone? Are you going to tear down existing housing to put up millions of apartments equipped with the "bare essentials"? Who has to live in the ghetto, and who gets to live in the burbs? How is any of this going to eliminate corruption? Does anyone think that socialism can ever be fair, and without corruption?

IMO, I agree with part of what Green says. We take the money out of our elections. But that's not enough. We have to have a government that will enforce the laws. ANY politician who takes money or favors, must be severely punished. But, who's going to enforce that? It's probably a pipe dream. Then I think that all of the trade deals and laws that contributed to the loss of jobs, should be voided. There is absolutely no way that we can support ourselves and everyone else, without jobs for all. Another pipe dream. I honestly think that the only way we can recover is to bring back the jobs. The only way our government can afford to support anyone, is if the majority are employed and paying taxes. I also think that the only way that people will ever be paid a fair wage, is if there are more jobs, than people to fill them. I think that a flat tax rate is the only " fair" tax rate. No deductions! No credits! No loopholes! No tax shelters. If you earn money in this country, you pay! People who make little, will pay little. People who make a lot, will pay a lot. And everyone's wages would be higher because employees would be in demand. I know that none of it will happen, but I believe these things are the only things that could fix our country.

Promises that are IMPOSSIBLE to keep, are just that. Socialism is just an illusion. It doesn't exist. I believe that true capitalism is the only way we can be truly free. And I'm not talking about the crony capitalism, that exists in this country now.


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Give it a rest, solo. You are the last one who should point fingers. You drip with honey over in D&P and drip with venom here. It's time to take your leave now.
> You don't consider your presence here antagonizing? It's the only reason that you are here. You can't survive a day without conflict.


Wow, you're really one to talk. You're the poster child for antagonistic behavior.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> I love shoes and have for as long as I can remember. When I was young and at college I would get shoes at S.Klein on the Square (Union Square, NYC) to match my favorite outfits. I still remember some of my real gems. Now that I have arthritis and a replacement hip, I am stuck in flats and have to wear shoes with room for a lift in the left heel. So I shop for cute sneakers and sandals with closed backs like Keen, Sketcher, Merrell, in different colors. I volunteer at a large rummage sale a couple of times a year in the women's shoe department and am in my glory. If I can't wear them, I still have fun selling them.


I LOVE my Merrells! They're so comfortable! I choose comfort over style.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Yes, what Nebraska wrote was beautiful and very touching. She has a very fine heart.


Awww! Thank you, Susan!


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## soloweygirl (Jun 9, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> What you say makes sense. Considering the numbers of interactions between police and the public, the incidents that end badly are minuscule. But they are the ones that get the publicity, something that we have to get evaluate to determine how to defuse rather than escalate.
> 
> What is disturbing, though, is that so many of the really bad confrontations involve young Black people. One wonders whether the police would be as assertive or aggressive under identical circumstances if the situations arose with young white people.
> 
> I am not talking about carjackings or other instances where innocent people going about their personal lives are endangered. I would want the cops coming to my rescue, no holds barred! It is important that the police see the public as people for them to protect not as the enemy. Philosophically we are all on the same side, wanting peace and safety in our environs.


It's hard to say. I would venture into the more assertive and less aggressive response. I would also say that the current mindset against the police and the police against certain groups needs to change in order for these types of situations to stop. Unfortunately, we have a long road ahead.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Quoted from http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/06/like_it_or_not_sanders_socialism_is_mainstream_edi.html#incart_most-comments
> 
> By Star-Ledger Editorial Board on June 15, 2015 at 7:45 AM, updated June 15, 2015 at 10:04 AM which includes pictures and access to a video conversation with Seth Meyers:
> 
> ...


IMO, human rights issues do NOT go hand in hand with socialism. I think history has proven that. I think that socialism is an illusion.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

soloweygirl said:


> It's hard to say. I would venture into the more assertive and less aggressive response. I would also say that the current mindset against the police and the police against certain groups needs to change in order for these types of situations to stop. Unfortunately, we have a long road ahead.


Part of the solution probably has to include breaching the "Blue Wall of Silence". Being a whistle blower is thankless and dangerous in most cases, but for a police officer it is many times worse. It would take a drastic and dramatic change of culture for the good cops, who I believe are the majority, to stop protecting the really bad guys who hide behind a shield.

I am sure most choosing law enforcement as a career started with an idealism to "protect and serve" the well being of the public. Maybe those for whom it is a family tradition entered the job with a more jaded attitude. The dangers and pressures of the work also tend to make each officer dependent on his/her colleagues, so nobody wants to antagonize other cops who, after all, walk around with loaded guns.

Definitely a dilemma that will have to addressed if trust in police protection is to be restored. We need a strong police presence, but by no means a police state.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> Part of the solution probably has to include breaching the "Blue Wall of Silence". Being a whistle blower is thankless and dangerous in most cases, but for a police officer it is many times worse. It would take a drastic and dramatic change of culture for the good cops, who I believe are the majority, to stop protecting the really bad guys who hide behind a shield.
> 
> I am sure most choosing law enforcement as a career started with an idealism to "protect and serve" the well being of the public. Maybe those for whom it is a family tradition entered the job with a more jaded attitude. The dangers and pressures of the work also tend to make each officer dependent on his/her colleagues, so nobody wants to antagonize other cops who, after all, walk around with loaded guns.
> 
> Definitely a dilemma that will have to addressed if trust in police protection is to be restored. We need a strong police presence, but by no means a police state.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Well said, Marilyn.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I hate shoes! I've busted every toe on my right foot save one, and no matter how diligently I search or how much money I spend I can never find a pair that fits comfortably. Heels are out--when I worked in an office I'd show up in smart suit and a pair of floppy oversized sneakers and change to a more formal pair just seconds before sitting behind my desk. If I had girls I'd discourage them from wearing anything but flats--nothing is worth the agony of attractive but stiff shoes pressing down on tender toes.


These are my Merrells. They're a little worn out now. But i can wear them with jeans or dress pants. The most comfortable shoes ever!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> I am so happy you post here. We need point and counterpoint to reach the sorts of compromises that will do the greatest good and least harm to the most people. If we don't know and understand one another's views and reasons for those views, we cannot grow and learn.
> 
> I am truly sorry that some of your friends on the Conservative team are so cowed by one of theirs that they will not acknowledge friendship with you for fear of retaliation. What will that woman do? Make knitted voodoo dolls? Make a stew of newt's tongues and bats wings and cast an evil spell? You are made of sterner stuff and stand your ground and stay strong in your beliefs. I may not share some of the beliefs, but you have helped me understand them.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Marilyn! 
I have definitely noticed who defends me on KP! We rarely agree on anything political, but we've figured out a way to talk, or maybe not to talk, when things get too heated. I appreciate the respect and the friendships I've made.

And thank you for the hugs and the warm fuzzies. My family is everything to me!


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, human rights issues do NOT go hand in hand with socialism. I think history has proven that. I think that socialism is an illusion.


Then you do not understand Socialism at all.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> I think the police do a good job in most cases. That's not to say there aren't bad officers, because there are. Most officers only have a matter of seconds to size up a situation and take a course of action after arriving on the scene. Every situation is different due to the people involved. There is no cookie cutter response anymore. Perhaps the police need different training today than they did in the past. Maybe different courses at the academy are necessary instead of the ones that were sufficient years ago.
> 
> People also need to listen to what the police are saying and do as they say. The kids that listened and sat down posed no trouble for the police. It was the ones that didn't listen, and that includes the girl, who inflamed the situation and things got out of control. It's not one sided. It's so easy to be a Monday morning quarterback.


I agree that the police do a good job "in most cases". But I think it's very important that we do not tolerate this behavior from our police officers. One of these children could have been killed, just for being stupid. I think that in this particular case, the officer was not being threatened by any type of weapon, so he had a few more seconds to choose good judgement. I absolutely agree with you, that there should be no " cookie cutter response". That's what bothers me most. The officer was trained to see these children as the enemy. He was trained to drop, roll, and pull out his gun. And that's what he did. I find it scary! I would hate to think that someday, this could happen to my grandchildren! The situation did not warrant the response.

You're right, that people should listen and do as they're told. But these were teenagers. Rarely have teenagers been known for good judgement. And frankly? If the teens had run away, so what? It's not like they'd committed some huge crime. They just wanted them to leave in the first place.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Oh, from this side of life with bunions that are partly hereditary, I don't think I would have gone higher than kitten heels instead of the 3 inchers in which I ran up and down subway stairs. It was really hard to resist cute shoes.
> 
> My high school colors were maroon and gold, and once I spotted gold canvas sneakers with maroon crepe soles at Bonwit Teller. I spent my own savings to get them although even they didn't make the maroon sacks we had as gym uniforms look any better.
> 
> I am sorry you have foot troubles. Have you tried Crocs for walking around shoes? They are loose and roomy and cushion your walk. My orthopedic doc said to wear them in the kitchen to avoid shin splints when I spend time on my feet cooking, and especially to wear them when I go to the grocery or big box stores with their concrete floors. And Lands End sneakers come in decent colors and styles and have give without pressure.


I love this post! And I'm absolutely SURE that your matching sneakers made your gym uniform look a LOT better! 
:lol:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> Bernie or someone who is equally "anti establishment" is exactly what this country needs. Look where establishment politicians have got us....giving banks a slap on the wrist for financial predatory actions, trade agreements that cause loss of jobs and decreasing wages, lackluster environmental stewardship and opening the Arctic to Shell oil for drilling agreeing to more nuclear power plant construction. Continuation of Guantanamo, use of drones that kill children and innocent people, NSA abuse. If nice liberals would get a spine and vote for real alternatives instead of the same centrist crap that we have had from the time of Clinton I we might have a chance of some significant change in our country.


I'd like someone who's anti establishment, but not a socialist.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> What you say makes sense. Considering the numbers of interactions between police and the public, the incidents that end badly are minuscule. But they are the ones that get the publicity, something that we have to evaluate to determine how to defuse rather than escalate.
> 
> What is disturbing, though, is that so many of the really bad confrontations involve young Black people. One wonders whether the police would be as assertive or aggressive under identical circumstances if the situations arose with young white people.
> 
> I am not talking about carjackings or other instances where innocent people going about their personal lives are endangered. I would want the cops coming to my rescue, no holds barred! It is important that the police see the public as people for them to protect not as the enemy. Philosophically we are all on the same side, wanting peace and safety in our environs.


As much as I hate it when people cry racism, I do believe that the police treat black people differently. One might make the excuse that crime rates are higher in blacks, but that doesn't mean that every black person is commiting a crime. Every person deserved to be judged on their own actions or behaviors. I strongly suspect that if a bunch of white kids had crashed the pool, the officers would have thought, "kids will be kids". The kids who didn't run away, would have been ticketed or charges would have been dropped at a later date.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

soloweygirl said:


> It's hard to say. I would venture into the more assertive and less aggressive response. I would also say that the current mindset against the police and the police against certain groups needs to change in order for these types of situations to stop. Unfortunately, we have a long road ahead.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Part of the solution probably has to include breaching the "Blue Wall of Silence". Being a whistle blower is thankless and dangerous in most cases, but for a police officer it is many times worse. It would take a drastic and dramatic change of culture for the good cops, who I believe are the majority, to stop protecting the really bad guys who hide behind a shield.
> 
> I am sure most choosing law enforcement as a career started with an idealism to "protect and serve" the well being of the public. Maybe those for whom it is a family tradition entered the job with a more jaded attitude. The dangers and pressures of the work also tend to make each officer dependent on his/her colleagues, so nobody wants to antagonize other cops who, after all, walk around with loaded guns.
> 
> Definitely a dilemma that will have to addressed if trust in police protection is to be restored. We need a strong police presence, but by no means a police state.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> Then you do not understand Socialism at all.


Are you referring to the fantasy, that is socialism?


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> So... I've been thinking about why so many of you like Bernie Sanders. When I read his letter to the CEOs, that Green posted on page 185, I was impressed. I thought I'd better find out more about him. But, what I read left me wondering whether you agree with everything he'd like to do or whether you even think it's possible, to do the things he'd like to do. I read that he calls himself a socialist, so I had to find out what he means by that. I did read his website, but all I found was election propaganda. So, I did a little more searching and came up with this. If anyone objects to it as representing Sanders, let me know.
> http://sandiegofreepress.org/2015/06/bernie-sanders-is-a-democratic-socialist-what-does-that-term-mean/
> 
> According to this, he's for universal healthcare. That's a no brainer. I expected that. He's for guaranteed housing, providing ALL with the bare essentials of living. Right away, I thought...what are the bare essentials and who decides? And how will we pay for them? He is for free education. I thought, how many people would not be serious about getting an education, but just take it anyway because it's free? And if everyone is college educated, how will be left to fix our cars and appliances and do roofing and painting etc... And how would we pay for it? He's for a universal income. Everyone gets paid, just for being alive. You could work, or not work. Again, who's going to pay for it? He says he would guarantee jobs. How does anyone guarantee jobs? There were other things as well, but let's just look at these.


Gosh, you raise a lot of interesting questions, Nebraska--I hardly know where to start...

The two that jumped out at me, though, are the issues of free education and universal income. I'm not convinced that an education that comes free makes it worth less in the eyes of students. After all, public elementary, middle, and high schools are free and many students work hard and do very well.

And as for the notion that more college educated adults means fewer plumbers and auto mechanics...that may be true, but it doesn't seem ethical to me to deny any teen that higher education s/he wants just for my own convenience. I believe the best plumbers/mechanics/hair dressers have chosen careers that they find both enjoyable and satisfying. There shouldn't be any stigma attached to working with one's hands, and making college available to all young people might make it clear that choosing instead to attend vocational school is not an indication of failure.

Which leads to universal income...I think human beings have an innate desire to work, and work hard, which is why so many seniors struggle after retirement. In prisons folks fight for the right to push brooms or shovel clothes into the institutional washers--hardly glamorous jobs, but they satisfy our inborn need to work. The worst punishment of all is denying a prisoner one of these positions and locking them in solitary for 23 hours a day. People want to work and need to work--I think very few would take advantage of a guaranteed universal income by lounging around all day.


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## Designer1234 (Aug 9, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you, Marilyn!
> I have definitely noticed who defends me on KP! We rarely agree on anything political, but we've figured out a way to talk, or maybe not to talk, when things get too heated. I appreciate the respect and the friendships I've made.
> 
> And thank you for the hugs and the warm fuzzies. My family is everything to me!


---------

As you know Nebs, I have argued with you a lot - about our different outlooks. However, we have managed to remain friends because we both wanted to. Friends are more important than political differences. I am glad you are a member of this group.Hopefully our discussions make us "think" and learn.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, human rights issues do NOT go hand in hand with socialism. I think history has proven that. I think that socialism is an illusion.


Knitter from Nebraska
you need to learn a lot about Socialism. It is a good thing.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'd like someone who's anti establishment, but not a socialist.


Knitter from Nebraska
and I like an Establishment that takes care of the People and that includes Socialism. Jesus was a Socialist no doubt.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

peacegoddess said:


> Bernie or someone who is equally "anti establishment" is exactly what this country needs. Look where establishment politicians have got us....giving banks a slap on the wrist for financial predatory actions, trade agreements that cause loss of jobs and decreasing wages, lackluster environmental stewardship and opening the Arctic to Shell oil for drilling agreeing to more nuclear power plant construction. Continuation of Guantanamo, use of drones that kill children and innocent people, NSA abuse. If nice liberals would get a spine and vote for real alternatives instead of the same centrist crap that we have had from the time of Clinton I we might have a chance of some significant change in our country.


Totally agree. But Sanders is still not going to get too far. I certainly do not like Hills - her coming to my last neighborhood in NYC was so hokey. But the corporate world and military will never allow a Sanders to get too far in the election. I wish things were different.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I love this post! And I'm absolutely SURE that your matching sneakers made your gym uniform look a LOT better!
> :lol:


Unless I suddenly got thin and shapely, which I definitely was not as a teenager, nothing would make that gunny sack look good except maybe as undies for a burka!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Gosh, you raise a lot of interesting questions, Nebraska--I hardly know where to start...
> 
> The two that jumped out at me, though, are the issues of free education and universal income. I'm not convinced that an education that comes free makes it worth less in the eyes of students. After all, public elementary, middle, and high schools are free and many students work hard and do very well.
> 
> ...


I was thinking of all the kids who start college and drop out. Or those who go to party. It seems to me a big waste of resources. I think that people shouldn't go to college unless they're dedicated to it. I'd also worry, that college might end up being denied to those who didn't get the best grades in high school. I think that if it costs you something, you're more likely to do something with it. That said, college tuitions have gotten out of control. We need to ask why tuitions have risen so much faster than inflation. Where's the money going? Public universities were supposed to be affordable. They aren't anymore. It used to be that a student could work and pay their way through college. That would be impossible now, even with higher wages. Now, you have to work half your life, to pay for it. What's happened?

I am not speaking of people who cant work here. I think that every society should care for those who cant work. I think that there are a lot of people who want to work, and can't find a job. But I also think that there are a lot of people who don't want to work. I don't think that those who work, should be forced to support those who won't. I'd also like your opinion on how a government can guarantee everyone a job. And If they can, how long would it be til you were assigned a job? If the government is going to be handing out all this money, somebody has to work to pay for it.

And never forget...socialism doesn't care about what's good for individuals. It's always about what's good for the many. We've gotten used to having choices.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Designer1234 said:


> ---------
> 
> As you know Nebs, I have argued with you a lot - about our different outlooks. However, we have managed to remain friends because we both wanted to. Friends are more important than political differences. I am glad you are a member of this group.Hopefully our discussions make us "think" and learn.


I agree!


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Are you referring to the fantasy, that is socialism?


Or perhaps the idealistic dream that doesn't take into account the vagaries of human nature. Remember in _Animal Farm[_ "All pigs are equal but some are more equal than others".

On a small scale among like minded people, such as some of the early Israeli kibbutzes, socialism resulted in a community that benefited everybody. In society as a whole there are too many people whose personal desires prevent their having the degree of selflessness and empathy needed to care about the well being of anybody else.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I'd like someone who's anti establishment, but not a socialist.


Your past posts indicate you do not have any understanding of socialism.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> you need to learn a lot about Socialism. It is a good thing.


And I think you've been deceived.

If you're going to tell me that Scandinavia has a wonderful socialism, don't bother. Scandinavia actually has a form a capitalism, with lots of social goodies attached. They have personal property rights, which are at odds with socialism. The businesses are privately owned, which is at odds with socialism. They have choice, which is at odds with socialism. They have very little regulation. The reason it works in the Scandinavian countries is because they have very low levels of corruption. If you added our corruption to their form of capitalism, you'd have our government.


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## aw9358 (Nov 1, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Your past posts indicate you do not have any understanding of socialism.


I agree. I must say that it's very refreshing to see the S word in your circles without the knee-jerk horror.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> _edited to select this comment from the entirety_ That said, college tuitions have gotten out of control. We need to ask why tuitions have risen so much faster than inflation. Where's the money going? Public universities were supposed to be affordable. They aren't anymore. It used to be that a student could work and pay their way through college. That would be impossible now, even with higher wages. Now, you have to work half your life, to pay for it. What's happened?


I think part of what happened was commercialized college sports programs. The mantra is that the sports bring in more money than they cost. I say B***.

As an example, Rutgers "The State University" was an affordable state funded college with a good academic reputation. Then it got involved in big time college sports. Millions are being thrown into sports real estate. Tuition is rising as are student fees over and above regular tuition. Traffic on the two lane road that passes the football stadium reverts to being a parking lot on game day. Athletic coaches make a higher salary than the President of the United States. The budget for sports would probably feed the starving people in half the third world countries on this globe. Also, to further the biggies, football and basketball, the school dropped classic Olympic sports such as crew and fencing, sports that were popular among the more academically minded. The quest for football glory turned an excellent academic institution into a jock haven and the heck with the rest of the undergrads except that they bring money. Bread and circuses to distract the dummies from what is important in the world.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> I agree. I must say that it's very refreshing to see the S word in your circles without the knee-jerk horror.


aw9358
Socialism has been tainted by those who do not want it to take hold and the majority of people have no clue what it actually means and believe it is bad.


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## Huckleberry (May 27, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And I think you've been deceived.
> 
> If you're going to tell me that Scandinavia has a wonderful socialism, don't bother. Scandinavia actually has a form a capitalism, with lots of social goodies attached. They have personal property rights, which are at odds with socialism. The businesses are privately owned, which is at odds with socialism. They have choice, which is at odds with socialism. They have very little regulation. The reason it works in the Scandinavian countries is because they have very low levels of corruption. If you added our corruption to their form of capitalism, you'd have our government.


Knitter from Nebraska
no deception experienced here.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> and I like an Establishment that takes care of the People and that includes Socialism. Jesus was a Socialist no doubt.


And I have a hard time imagining our government taking care of anyone but themselves and their cronies. Do you believe that if Sanders were elected, that he could overturn our entire political system and create one in which the people who ran it, were altruistic? Caring? Kind? I'm sorry, I don't see it happening here. I see more power and more control! Remember, USSR stood for United Soviet SOCIALIST Republic. Look where it got them.

America has kicked JESUS to the curb! And in fact, socialism espouses secular religion, so JESUS doesn't come into the picture, anywhere.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Totally agree. But Sanders is still not going to get too far. I certainly do not like Hills - her coming to my last neighborhood in NYC was so hokey. But the corporate world and military will never allow a Sanders to get too far in the election. I wish things were different.


Not unless they used him as a puppet, to lure the people into a soviet style of socialism.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Unless I suddenly got thin and shapely, which I definitely was not as a teenager, nothing would make that gunny sack look good except maybe as undies for a burka!


Ahahahahaha!

But I'm sure everyone was just looking at your feet.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Or perhaps the idealistic dream that doesn't take into account the vagaries of human nature. Remember in _Animal Farm[_ "All pigs are equal but some are more equal than others".
> 
> On a small scale among like minded people, such as some of the early Israeli kibbutzes, socialism resulted in a community that benefited everybody. In society as a whole there are too many people whose personal desires prevent their having the degree of selflessness and empathy needed to care about the well being of anybody else.


I agree!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

peacegoddess said:


> Your past posts indicate you do not have any understanding of socialism.


What do you THINK socialism is?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

aw9358 said:


> I agree. I must say that it's very refreshing to see the S word in your circles without the knee-jerk horror.


Why don't you tell me what you THINK is socialism, as well.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And...


Dear little bundles! The babies look so well and content KFN!


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> I agree, KFN. The battle roll the cop did on the video made it clear what kind of cop he was. Who does that?


Talk about Miami Vice! :XD: :XD: :XD:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> I think part of what happened was commercialized college sports programs. The mantra is that the sports bring in more money than they cost. I say B***.
> 
> As an example, Rutgers "The State University" was an affordable state funded college with a good academic reputation. Then it got involved in big time college sports. Millions are being thrown into sports real estate. Tuition is rising as are student fees over and above regular tuition. Traffic on the two lane road that passes the football stadium reverts to being a parking lot on game day. Athletic coaches make a higher salary than the President of the United States. The budget for sports would probably feed the starving people in half the third world countries on this globe. Also, to further the biggies, football and basketball, the school dropped classic Olympic sports such as crew and fencing, sports that were popular among the more academically minded. The quest for football glory turned an excellent academic institution into a jock haven and the heck with the rest of the undergrads except that they bring money. Bread and circuses to distract the dummies from what is important in the world.


I agree, but I wonder where all the money goes, that's generated by the sports? Here at the University of Nebraska, the football games have been sold out since 1962. In addition, many of the major projects are funded by the Alumni Association. Yes, the coach makes big bucks, but the players play for scholarships, and some don't even get those. I would think that over 40 years of sold out crowds, would make it self sustainable.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> Dear little bundles! The babies look so well and content KFN!


Thank you Wombat!

Tonight, they're going to do a car seat test. They will strap Leo into his car seat for 45 minutes, and watch him to see that he doesn't stop breathing or that his heart rate doesn't drop. Apparently, a lot of preemies have problems being in this slightly upright position. I hope it all goes well.


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## SQM (Jun 22, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you Wombat!
> 
> Tonight, they're going to do a car seat test. They will strap Leo into his car seat for 45 minutes, and watch him to see that he doesn't stop breathing or that his heart rate doesn't drop. Apparently, a lot of preemies have problems being in this slightly upright position. I hope it all goes well.


Good luck Baby Leo. This is your first test. Is this the newborn version of Common Core?


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you Wombat!
> 
> Tonight, they're going to do a car seat test. They will strap Leo into his car seat for 45 minutes, and watch him to see that he doesn't stop breathing or that his heart rate doesn't drop. Apparently, a lot of preemies have problems being in this slightly upright position. I hope it all goes well.


Oh, wow. Looking forward to more good news tomorrow.


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## Wombatnomore (Dec 9, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Thank you Wombat!
> 
> Tonight, they're going to do a car seat test. They will strap Leo into his car seat for 45 minutes, and watch him to see that he doesn't stop breathing or that his heart rate doesn't drop. Apparently, a lot of preemies have problems being in this slightly upright position. I hope it all goes well.


I wish Leo all the best! I hope he passes with flying colours. :-D


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska

We disagree on so many things, political, economic, environmental, and social that there is no use in explaining what my understanding of Socialism is and why I am a Socialist to you.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> 
> We disagree on so many things, political, economic, environmental, and social that there is no use in explaining what my understanding of Socialism is and why I am a Socialist to you.


Granted, you and KfN will never have similar views on how society should be structured. But I for one would be interested in your perspective on Socialism and the optimum way to integrate its principles into American society. Our political system is not working in our favor the way matters are going at present.

What is a realistic agenda for making our Country a healthier place economically, helping those who cannot help themselves in a compassionate and dignified manner, and keeping opportunists from undermining the positive aspects of changes? How can the possibility of an improved society be presented to voters so they would accept changes and try to put them into play? Remember the aspect of solipsism that affects so many people.

This could be an extremely informative and enlightening dialog.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

SQM said:


> Good luck Baby Leo. This is your first test. Is this the newborn version of Common Core?


No common core for my grandbabies! :XD:


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I tried hitting "quote reply" three times, and nothing comes up. So I am responding to kpg's post, of which she searched (in such a Christian-like manner) to find whatever dirt she could use against me.
> 
> Kpg, it's no secret to anyone that I used to make my postings as antagonistically as possible. I admit that I feel as strongly about my opinions, as anyone else does. If I didn't think I were right, I wouldn't bother. Who would? I came to realize that my attitude (and other's) was not conducive to any kind of discussion. I had to examine my motives for being here. Was I here to fight? To insult others? To feel superior? To feel hatred and share that hatred with others? Was it more important for me to think I was right, or to share what I knew and believed? To be a positive influence or a battering ram? As I shared with you in the past, I felt as if, my spirit were being moved to change the way I was behaving. I could not be a living testimony to GOD'S forgiveness and grace, if I couldn't LIVE, forgiveness and grace. I heard the message that I was wasting my life fighting and hating. There was no way I could be an influence on anyone, as I was. So, I changed!
> 
> ...


Thank you for your long reply. I have quoted it above because I think you have written your reply very well. You have honestly stated your opinion and it is not an isolated opinion, many agree with what you have written. I honestly cannot believe that someone would sit down and trawl through another poster's comments in order to find something from the past to use against them. Her nasty comments were totally unnecessary. Each and every one of us here holds differing views from the others on many subjects and some of us do become heated at times but I believe, and hope, that we do not sink to the depths to which she has sunk. We are not all little clones of each other, that would make for a very boring life and indeed a very boring chit chat.

It is interesting about the quote reply button not working. I just tried it and it is still not working. It works on other posts but not on that one, why????? I had intended to reply to that post at the time but I was interrupted, Kai wanted me to go down to the back of the property and talk to him whilst he did some tree pruning and when I came back inside I forgot to reply. I do not think it would have done any good though, she would just have twisted my words and fired them back at me, but I was extremely angry with her comments. My post would have been very brief, all I would have said was "Please leave Knitter from Nebraska alone as she has done nothing to be on the receiving end of your vitriol. You are only jealous that she is sharing a happy event and you have nothing to celebrate. And leave our resident sloth alone too. It is a pity you do not understand her humour. BUT we all understand the depths to which you have sunk when you go trawling through other posters' comments that were made perhaps years ago and then quote them out of context."

As I said, we do not always agree 100% on everything that each other says but I still look on you as a friend and I hope you consider me a friend.

The news about the babies is really good news and you must be getting excited about the homecoming of at least one little mite. Big hug to big brother Max. How is he reacting to the role of big brother?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Oh, wow. Looking forward to more good news tomorrow.


Thanks, Marilyn! Me too!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Wombatnomore said:


> I wish Leo all the best! I hope he passes with flying colours. :-D


Thanks, Wombat!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Granted, you and KfN will never have similar views on how society should be structured. But I for one would be interested in your perspective on Socialism and the optimum way to integrate its principles into American society. Our political system is not working in our favor the way matters are going at present.
> 
> What is a realistic agenda for making our Country a healthier place economically, helping those who cannot help themselves in a compassionate and dignified manner, and keeping opportunists from undermining the positive aspects of changes? How can the possibility of an improved society be presented to voters so they would accept changes and try to put them into play? Remember the aspect of solipsism that affects so many people.
> 
> This could be an extremely informative and enlightening dialog.


Thank you, Marilyn. I too, think it would make for an informative and enlightening dialog. I truly do not understand why anyone would want to convert to socialism. I thought that maybe the definition of "socialism" had changed, like so many other word definitions. But I looked it up. It hasn't changed. I truly cannot understand why anyone would favor the government taking ownership of the companies, thus making us all dependent upon the state (government). Am I missing something here?

It seems to me that we'd be better off fixing the system we have. We need to do away with laws and regulations that give an unfair advantage to the 1%, but if a government is corrupt carrying out capitalism, why wouldn't they be corrupt, carrying out socialism? Why would socialism be better?


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> I love shoes and have for as long as I can remember. When I was young and at college I would get shoes at S.Klein on the Square (Union Square, NYC) to match my favorite outfits. I still remember some of my real gems. Now that I have arthritis and a replacement hip, I am stuck in flats and have to wear shoes with room for a lift in the left heel. So I shop for cute sneakers and sandals with closed backs like Keen, Sketcher, Merrell, in different colors. I volunteer at a large rummage sale a couple of times a year in the women's shoe department and am in my glory. If I can't wear them, I still have fun selling them.


I am just the opposite, I do not like shoes and really do not like wearing them. I guess that stems from my childhood when I only wore shoes to school or when I was going to town and all dressed up. Running errands to the shop, playing with friends, no shoes were worn. Did you know that when I went to school many children did not wear shoes to school. When my eldest started school in 1967 he actually buried his brand new shoes so he would not have to wear them. He said if I purchased another pair he would bury those too, he wanted to be like a lot of the other boys, the ones who did not wear shoes to school. He went to school barefoot for the first two years of his schooling.

I was only thinking the other day that I should really purchase a new pair of trainers as the ones I wear are now 5 years old, then I had another look at them and decided that there is still another year's wear in them. I do not wear shoes inside the house but if the weather is very cold I do relent and wear a pair of slip on slippers that my eldest son gave me for a Christmas present. I have never been able to wear high heeled shoes, I have always stuck with sandals or flatties.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

SQM said:


> Good luck Baby Leo. This is your first test. Is this the newborn version of Common Core?


Yes, standardized testing begins early!

:XD: :XD:


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

I would not want to live in a society in which the central government controlled businesses and in which people were dependent upon government. From what I learned in my history classes, when too much authority is vested in any entity it leads to corruption and makes the downtrodden more downtrodden. 

I grew up during a period of prosperity that followed a horrific war. Small privately owned businesses prospered and many supported not only the owner's family but families of one or more employees. Thanks to the efforts of union organizers larger manufacturing companies paid living wages to many employees and great but not greed driven comfort to the owners. Returning veterans were helped to reintegrate into society through the G.I. Bill and because people were eager to employ them. They were given points of preference in civil service exams. The government helped but did not take over. 

Somehow over the years business owners removed themselves from personal involvement with employees and we ended up with the dehumanization of the worker. International trade, which has positive aspects for all involved became a conduit to take jobs from countries where people were earning decent wages and establishing off shore businesses that paid workers an exploitative pittance there and impoverished the unemployed here. 

If the social aspects of life, civil rights of all people, were in place then it would have been a real "Alice and Jerry" "Dick and Jane" world. Racism and other aspects of ethnic prejudice were the sorry stains on that society. 

Given human nature is there really a way to achieve a society where everybody has a chance to prosper? Where the disabled and helpless are looked after kindly? Where greed does not cause the sorts of disparities we have now? 

We may be God's experiment to see whether humanity can achieve that level of civility and civilization. Or, if there is indeed a God or a God-like hierarchy in the Universe, is this planet the "leper colony" of the larger society where the misfits were dropped off so as not to contaminate that larger society? Are those of us who decry the inequities strong enough to overcome all the wrongs?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Thank you for your long reply. I have quoted it above because I think you have written your reply very well. You have honestly stated your opinion and it is not an isolated opinion, many agree with what you have written. I honestly cannot believe that someone would sit down and trawl through another poster's comments in order to find something from the past to use against them. Her nasty comments were totally unnecessary. Each and every one of us here holds differing views from the others on many subjects and some of us do become heated at times but I believe, and hope, that we do not sink to the depths to which she has sunk. We are not all little clones of each other, that would make for a very boring life and indeed a very boring chit chat.
> 
> It is interesting about the quote reply button not working. I just tried it and it is still not working. It works on other posts but not on that one, why????? I had intended to reply to that post at the time but I was interrupted, Kai wanted me to go down to the back of the property and talk to him whilst he did some tree pruning and when I came back inside I forgot to reply. I do not think it would have done any good though, she would just have twisted my words and fired them back at me, but I was extremely angry with her comments. My post would have been very brief, all I would have said was "Please leave Knitter from Nebraska alone as she has done nothing to be on the receiving end of your vitriol. You are only jealous that she is sharing a happy event and you have nothing to celebrate. And leave our resident sloth alone too. It is a pity you do not understand her humour. BUT we all understand the depths to which you have sunk when you go trawling through other posters' comments that were made perhaps years ago and then quote them out of context."
> 
> ...


Thank you Eve! I cannot imagine why she would search so far back in my posts. I think her intent was to make all of you turn against me. But it was never any secret that I'd reached a point, where I wanted us to discuss issues and differences. I had become as frustrated with myself, as with all of you. I value, the back and forth. It causes me to think about what I believe and what others believe, and why.

Even when we don't agree on issues, I learn so much. In your case, I value your stories about Kai. I've learned a lot, that's helped me care for Max. Thank you for sharing those. I've learned a lot about Australia, which I knew very little about. It's been very interesting. I've learned about how things were in times past, and in other places. I couldn't begin to enumerate everything I've learned and appreciated. But know that I do. I would not be here, if I weren't gaining something.

I'm very glad that I was given a second chance. That doesn't mean that I agree with everything. Sometimes, I get angry or frustrated, but rather than saying something mean, I just say nothing. If I'm looking for someone to agree with me, I don't have far to look. Mine is a fairly homogeneous life. But when I want to challenge myself, I come here. And I definitely consider you a friend! All (almost) of you!


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> I hate shoes! I've busted every toe on my right foot save one, and no matter how diligently I search or how much money I spend I can never find a pair that fits comfortably. Heels are out--when I worked in an office I'd show up in smart suit and a pair of floppy oversized sneakers and change to a more formal pair just seconds before sitting behind my desk. If I had girls I'd discourage them from wearing anything but flats--nothing is worth the agony of attractive but stiff shoes pressing down on tender toes.


What can I say, a girl after my own heart. That is why I love so many of the younger girls. They are all dressed up in the nines to go to work but look down at their feet and they are wearing trainers. So much more comfortable when you are standing in the crush on the peak hour train, so much more comfortable when driving to the station to catch the train, so much more comfortable when walking around the office, so much more comfortable when you dash out at lunch time to do a bit of shopping. My ex sister in law always wore very high heels even though they were not comfortable because she said that high heels gave your legs a better profile that men found attractive. I restored "yes, maybe but they also give you a very painful look on your dial, besides I do not wear shoes just because men may like to perve on my legs." They also do not let you walk naturally because your hips are not in the correct alignment when you walk and this can cause no end of trouble in old age. When I was a teenager I had a half hour bicycle ride to the station and you cannot ride a bicycle when you are wearing high heels. So I am also one of the bare feet brigade, even if we have bare bear feet. I think high heels are fine if you intending to just sit and look sexy but if you are intending to walk any distance then you cannot beat a good pair of thongs, or sandals or even a good pair of trainers that are made specifically for walking. Just a thought. A friend has very well developed calf muscles and her doctor told her that was the result of wearing high heels when she was a teenager. She is barely 5 ft tall and wore them so she would not be told she suffered from duck's disease.


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## MarilynKnits (Aug 30, 2011)

Good Night to all. Tomorrow is another day and I hope it brings goodness for the four darlings and good news for Leo. Just a distant auntie's hug for Max, too. I am sure you won't let him get lost in the shuffle.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I am just the opposite, I do not like shoes and really do not like wearing them. I guess that stems from my childhood when I only wore shoes to school or when I was going to town and all dressed up. Running errands to the shop, playing with friends, no shoes were worn. Did you know that when I went to school many children did not wear shoes to school. When my eldest started school in 1967 he actually buried his brand new shoes so he would not have to wear them. He said if I purchased another pair he would bury those too, he wanted to be like a lot of the other boys, the ones who did not wear shoes to school. He went to school barefoot for the first two years of his schooling.
> 
> I was only thinking the other day that I should really purchase a new pair of trainers as the ones I wear are now 5 years old, then I had another look at them and decided that there is still another year's wear in them. I do not wear shoes inside the house but if the weather is very cold I do relent and wear a pair of slip on slippers that my eldest son gave me for a Christmas present. I have never been able to wear high heeled shoes, I have always stuck with sandals or flatties.


As a child, we spent our summers barefoot. I feel sorry for kids today, who have to wear shoes all of the time. Max's parents want him to wear shoes outside, but I don't know why. I've very soft bluegrass that has never had any chemicals on it. I let him go barefoot! I told my son that if he didn't like it, he'd have to tell me how to make Max leave his shoes on. He gave up. Because there is no way to make him leave his shoes on.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

susanmos2000 said:


> Yes, standardized testing begins early!
> 
> :XD: :XD:


 :lol:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> I would not want to live in a society in which the central government controlled businesses and in which people were dependent upon government. From what I learned in my history classes, when too much authority is vested in any entity it leads to corruption and makes the downtrodden more downtrodden.
> 
> I grew up during a period of prosperity that followed a horrific war. Small privately owned businesses prospered and many supported not only the owner's family but families of one or more employees. Thanks to the efforts of union organizers larger manufacturing companies paid living wages to many employees and great but not greed driven comfort to the owners. Returning veterans were helped to reintegrate into society through the G.I. Bill and because people were eager to employ them. They were given points of preference in civil service exams. The government helped but did not take over.
> 
> ...


I found this to be very profound. I agree exactly, with how you see the state of things. Sadly, my strong personal beliefs cause me to think that the evil has grown too strong. I believe we are destined to fulfill the prophecies of the Bible.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Good Night to all. Tomorrow is another day and I hope it brings goodness for the four darlings and good news for Leo. Just a distant auntie's hug for Max, too. I am sure you won't let him get lost in the shuffle.


Thank you, Marilyn! You can be assured that I won't let that happen! Hugs from all.


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## peacegoddess (Jan 28, 2013)

Marilynknits
It would begin with a broader range of political parties in government. Bernie as president would be a good beginning with the inclusion of more congressional members who are progressive. I generally agree with the socialist party platform, but doubt this country is ready to go left of centrist politics. You and others can read the platform statements. I do not think the US would ever adhere to Socialist ideals as we are too stuck on capitalist economics. 
I whole heartedly believe in a cooperative control of companies. There are great examples of working coops in Cleveland, Ohio and other areas. If you read or listen to some of Richard Wolff's work you will have an idea of where my sentiments come from.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> Knitter from Nebraska
> you need to learn a lot about Socialism. It is a good thing.


Do you think that many people confuse Socialism with Communism and believe that Socialism is Communism?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Do you think that many people confuse Socialism with Communism and believe that Socialism is Communism?


I don't know if many do or not. I refreshed my memory here. I found that I had forgotten some of the differences.
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Communism_vs_Socialism


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

MarilynKnits said:


> Unless I suddenly got thin and shapely, which I definitely was not as a teenager, nothing would make that gunny sack look good except maybe as undies for a burka!


Oh dear, did they not explain it to you. That was the whole idea of the gym tunic, it was to make you look bad, really, really bad. It was to stop the boys eying you off and thinking those thoughts that teenage boys think. It was designed to make tall thin girls look like a bean pole with the wood scraped off and girls who had not lost their puppy fat to look like an overstuffed pie. It was designed to desexualise the girls. The only ones who could look attractive were those girls with the very skinny waist and the overdeveloped boobs and they usually wore a gym tunic that was at least two sizes too small for them so it would accentuate their curves.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

MarilynKnits said:


> Quoted from http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/06/like_it_or_not_sanders_socialism_is_mainstream_edi.html#incart_most-comments
> 
> By Star-Ledger Editorial Board on June 15, 2015 at 7:45 AM, updated June 15, 2015 at 10:04 AM which includes pictures and access to a video conversation with Seth Meyers:


Text shortened to save space.

I agree. If nothing else, Sanders will force Hillary to the left.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Then you do not understand Socialism at all.


Agreed, she does not understand Socialism or what Bernie Sanders is all about. Capitalism has been an abysmal failure and is destroying the country. It is easy to throw up your arms and say woe is me. That attitude never accomplished a thing. The only time anything great in the world was accomplished was when people got together and believed they could make society better and then they did the hard work it took to accomplish that change. I was fortunate to hear Sanders speak when he was here in Minneapolis. He is the real deal and he does not say making change will be easy. He also knows it is the people who must bring about the changes in any country not the politicians, the military, not the wealthy. KFN, you say Socialism is an illusion and I disagree. Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to have given up the fight and don't seem to think there is any hope for our country yet you offer no alternatives. That is a very easy out. I and others on the Liberal threads believe deeply in Bernie Sanders and Socialism and I will back him as long as he stays in the race. I want him for President because I am tired of settling for leadership that is just more of the status quo. When you throw in the towel, as you seem to have done you get what you deserve as far as the type of government you end up with. Don't you want better for your grandchildren than what we have? Don't you owe it to them to try to make the world a better place? I think we should discuss Socialism here. What better place than a Liberal Progressive thread? I encourage all of us who are Socialists or any who are interesting in learning more about Socialism speak up. We should gather links to explain and support our beliefs and opinions. I'm in and I hope many others will be too.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Text shortened to save space.
> 
> I agree. If nothing else, Sanders will force Hillary to the left.


IMO, he might cause Hillary to SAY things that sound left, buts she's already been bought and paid for.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

soloweygirl said:


> I think the police do a good job in most cases. That's not to say there aren't bad officers, because there are. Most officers only have a matter of seconds to size up a situation and take a course of action after arriving on the scene. Every situation is different due to the people involved. There is no cookie cutter response anymore. Perhaps the police need different training today than they did in the past. Maybe different courses at the academy are necessary instead of the ones that were sufficient years ago.
> 
> People also need to listen to what the police are saying and do as they say. The kids that listened and sat down posed no trouble for the police. It was the ones that didn't listen, and that includes the girl, who inflamed the situation and things got out of control. It's not one sided. It's so easy to be a Monday morning quarterback.


Everything you say makes sense. I agree that the vast majority of policemen are honest and dedicated and have served without ever drawing their gun or hurting anyone.

It is those good police who need to put a stop to the outrageous and criminal acts of the few if they want to have their own reputations restored and to regain the respect of the citizens they serve. We have seen far too many videos of blatant brutality and criminal behavior. It cannot be ignored and SHOULD NOT be ignored.

Ideally, police should be hired and trained to make decisions. Currently, the military-style training they receive teaches them only to obey orders, which is the job of a soldier. Something to think about.

Also, it's high time we stopped asking the police to solve medical or mental health problems. That is a prescription for disaster.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And I think you've been deceived.
> 
> If you're going to tell me that Scandinavia has a wonderful socialism, don't bother. Scandinavia actually has a form a capitalism, with lots of social goodies attached. They have personal property rights, which are at odds with socialism. The businesses are privately owned, which is at odds with socialism. They have choice, which is at odds with socialism. They have very little regulation. The reason it works in the Scandinavian countries is because they have very low levels of corruption. If you added our corruption to their form of capitalism, you'd have our government.


Personal property rights are not at odds with Socialism. I honestly think you are confusing Socialism with Communism, and there is a difference between the two. As far as property rights are concerned I will just post a little here.

Property

Communism
Abolished. The concept of property is negated and replaced with the concept of commons and ownership with "usership".

Socialism
Two kinds of property: Personal property, such as houses, clothing, etc. owned by the individual. Public property includes factories, and means of production owned by the State but with worker control.

You can read more at this link, but there are also other sites.

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Communism_vs_Socialism

Just read the posts after I posted and I see that you already know about that link. You are willing to discuss things and see another's point of view, even if you disagree with them.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Huckleberry said:


> aw9358
> Socialism has been tainted by those who do not want it to take hold and the majority of people have no clue what it actually means and believe it is bad.


As I said, many confuse Socialism with Communism and there is a difference.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> And I have a hard time imagining our government taking care of anyone but themselves and their cronies. Do you believe that if Sanders were elected, that he could overturn our entire political system and create one in which the people who ran it, were altruistic? Caring? Kind? I'm sorry, I don't see it happening here.


Until we overturn Citizens United and return to free and fair elections, you will be correct.

Money in politics is the root of all evils.

Look at what money in soccer did. Look what vast amounts of money in other sports did.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> IMO, he might cause Hillary to SAY things that sound left, buts she's already been bought and paid for.


I'm afraid you are right.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> As a child, we spent our summers barefoot. I feel sorry for kids today, who have to wear shoes all of the time. Max's parents want him to wear shoes outside, but I don't know why. I've very soft bluegrass that has never had any chemicals on it. I let him go barefoot! I told my son that if he didn't like it, he'd have to tell me how to make Max leave his shoes on.  He gave up. Because there is no way to make him leave his shoes on.


I remember an old saying that said "your feet should touch the earth at least once every day"'. I may not have used the exact words but I think you get what I am saying. It was called 'grounding'. When they say 'the earth' they mean the earth and not the artificial flooring inside a house, flat or other dwelling. I also remember my mother saying that bare feet are better for children because bare feet will dry out when they get wet but wet shoes stay wet for a long time and the child is then running around in wet shoes, which is not good. She said a child could catch a cold running around in wet shoes. Kai wore wellies when he was a small child mainly because I could take them off at the door. He had a penchant for stepping in every cow pat he could see. Boy was it a struggle putting his yellow wellies on, boy did he struggle. Someone suggested putting talc in the wellies first and they should slip on. Should slip on ..... yes but not always and the poor kid walked around laying down his own smoke screen of talc powder. Besides, bare feet are a lot cheaper than shoes and their feet do grow so fast when they are little.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Agreed, she does not understand Socialism or what Bernie Sanders is all about. Capitalism has been an abysmal failure and is destroying the country. It is easy to throw up your arms and say woe is me. That attitude never accomplished a thing. The only time anything great in the world was accomplished was when people got together and believed they could make society better and then they did the hard work it took to accomplish that change. I was fortunate to hear Sanders speak when he was here in Minneapolis. He is the real deal and he does not say making change will be easy. He also knows it is the people who must bring about the changes in any country not the politicians, the military, not the wealthy. KFN, you say Socialism is an illusion and I disagree. Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to have given up the fight and don't seem to think there is any hope for our country yet you offer no alternatives. That is a very easy out. I and others on the Liberal threads believe deeply in Bernie Sanders and Socialism and I will back him as long as he stays in the race. I want him for President because I am tired of settling for leadership that is just more of the status quo. When you throw in the towel, as you seem to have done you get what you deserve as far as the type of government you end up with. Don't you want better for your grandchildren than what we have? Don't you owe it to them to try to make the world a better place? I think we should discuss Socialism here. What better place than a Liberal Progressive thread? I encourage all of us who are Socialists or any who are interesting in learning more about Socialism speak up. We should gather links to explain and support our beliefs and opinions. I'm in and I hope many others will be too.


First of all, I have offered an alternative to socialism many times over. Perhaps, you didn't see it. I propose that we fix what's wrong with our so called capitalism. I don't think that we can even call our current system, capitalism. It has become crony capitalism. I propose that we put into place, some of the same things Green has talked about. We get money out of our elections! I think that the government should either get the TV stations (with content online and in newspapers) to donate time for public Q&As that include all candidates. And I think that one person from each party, should be included, to ask the questions and the questions should be asked of all candidates. I don't like the back and forth name calling and I don't like the incessant commercials. Eliminate them! Just get the information out. Make political donations illegal. Prosecute any politician who takes money or favors from anyone with a political agenda.

Void all laws, regulations, etc... that favor corporations. Make lobbying illegal. Break up the big banks. Reinstate Glass Steagall. Eliminate the federal reserve and put the Treasury in charge of our currency. Break up monopolies. Hold our representatives responsible for representing us! Allow the people to vote for an Attorney General who will not be beholden to the President who chooses them. Make sure that person is willing to prosecute crooked politicians!

But most of all, BRING BACK THE JOBS! Our country cannot survive without them. Void the treaties. Put tariffs on imports, so that its not profitable to pay overseas workers pennies a day. The only way we can ever have a living wage, is for there to be more jobs, than people to fill them. Only then, will people earn a fair wage. Raising minimum wage has very little effect, as prices increase to make up for it. Existing workers don't get comparable raises, so they actually fall backwards in wages. Support Unions, BUT only if corruption within the unions is promptly prosecuted. Put the white collar criminals in the same prisons as everyone else. Let them work for pennies an hour! See how they like it!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Everything you say makes sense. I agree that the vast majority of policemen are honest and dedicated and have served without ever drawing their gun or hurting anyone.
> 
> It is those good police who need to put a stop to the outrageous and criminal acts of the few if they want to have their own reputations restored and to regain the respect of the citizens they serve. We have seen far too many videos of blatant brutality and criminal behavior. It cannot be ignored and SHOULD NOT be ignored.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> Personal property rights are not at odds with Socialism. I honestly think you are confusing Socialism with Communism, and there is a difference between the two. As far as property rights are concerned I will just post a little here.
> 
> Property
> 
> ...


I stand corrected on personal property. But what would we do? Confiscate everyone's businesses? Make them the property of the state? What of those who have sacrificed everything to build a business? Have they no rights?

And most importantly, if we can't control a corrupt government under capitalism, how are we to control a corrupt government under socialism? The USSR was a socialist republic. Look what happened to them.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> As I said, many confuse Socialism with Communism and there is a difference.


When it comes to corrupt leaders, is there really a difference?

We have to start by eliminating corruption. Is that even possible? Or realistic?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Until we overturn Citizens United and return to free and fair elections, you will be correct.
> 
> Money in politics is the root of all evils.
> 
> Look at what money in soccer did. Look what vast amounts of money in other sports did.


Can the congress and Senate be pressured into overturning citizens united? I'm all for it, but I could never support the risk of having a con con.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

peacegoddess said:


> Marilynknits
> It would begin with a broader range of political parties in government. Bernie as president would be a good beginning with the inclusion of more congressional members who are progressive. I generally agree with the socialist party platform, but doubt this country is ready to go left of centrist politics. You and others can read the platform statements. I do not think the US would ever adhere to Socialist ideals as we are too stuck on capitalist economics.
> I whole heartedly believe in a cooperative control of companies. There are great examples of working coops in Cleveland, Ohio and other areas. If you read or listen to some of Richard Wolff's work you will have an idea of where my sentiments come from.


I hope we keep this conversation going. Coops may be a good way to begin. As we know much of the good that has benefited the people of this country has been brought about by Socialists and Socialist ideas whether or not people are aware of them.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Can the congress and Senate be pressured into overturning citizens united? I'm all for it, but I could never support the risk of having a con con.


Pardon, what is a con con?


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> I remember an old saying that said "your feet should touch the earth at least once every day"'. I may not have used the exact words but I think you get what I am saying. It was called 'grounding'. When they say 'the earth' they mean the earth and not the artificial flooring inside a house, flat or other dwelling. I also remember my mother saying that bare feet are better for children because bare feet will dry out when they get wet but wet shoes stay wet for a long time and the child is then running around in wet shoes, which is not good. She said a child could catch a cold running around in wet shoes. Kai wore wellies when he was a small child mainly because I could take them off at the door. He had a penchant for stepping in every cow pat he could see. Boy was it a struggle putting his yellow wellies on, boy did he struggle. Someone suggested putting talc in the wellies first and they should slip on. Should slip on ..... yes but not always and the poor kid walked around laying down his own smoke screen of talc powder. Besides, bare feet are a lot cheaper than shoes and their feet do grow so fast when they are little.


Poor Kai! I envision him looking like "Pigpen" from "Charlie Brown". I'm assuming that you know who I'm talking about. Do you have Charlie Brown, down under? Pigpen was always surrounded by a cloud of dust.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> I hope we keep this conversation going. Coops may be a good way to begin. As we know much of the good that has benefited the people of this country has been brought about by Socialists and Socialist ideas whether or not people are aware of them.


Would these coops be owned and controlled by the government, or by the people?

I agree, it's an interesting conversation. However, I'm still not very clear on what others see, as socialism. I'd like to hear more about that.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

SQM said:


> Gee, this deserves a publisher. With just a little more steam, you have the beginning of a best seller.


Thanks SQ, I'll keep at it. :XD:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Wombatnomore said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: You crack me up Cheeks!


Thanks, Wombat. I enjoy doing it. :lol:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Pardon, what is a con con?


It's a Constitutional Convention. It is a meeting of state representatives with the intent of changing the Constitution. The delegates are not chosen by the people. They are chosen by the party in charge, of each state. The people send them with the intent of changing or adding something particular, to the Constitution, but they are not limited to acting on that alone. They could change any part (or all) of our Constitution, without the consent of the people. Green and I disagree on the value of calling for a con con. She thinks we could send them to address the issue of the citizens united ruling, and trust them not to change or add, anything else. I don't trust them. We could very easily lose our Constitutional rights as an unintended consequence.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD: :XD:
> Thanks, Cheeky. I needed a good laugh!


Your welcome, Patty.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It's a Constitutional Convention. It is a meeting of state representatives with the intent of changing the Constitution. The delegates are not chosen by the people. They are chosen by the party in charge of each state. The people send them with the intent of changing a particular bill or amendment, but they are not limited to acting on that alone. They could change any part (or all) of our Constitution, without the consent of the people. Green and I disagree on the value of calling for a con con. She thinks we could send them to address the issue of the citizens united ruling, and trust them not to change or add, anything else. I don't trust them. We could very easily lose our Constitutional rights as an unintended consequence.


Thanks, I have never heard of it called that before. :thumbup:


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

BrattyPatty said:


> In the non fiction department.


The truth is stranger than fiction and in this case there is no doubt. :hunf:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

Cheeky Blighter said:


> Thanks, I have never heard of it called that before. :thumbup:


You're welcome.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

MarilynKnits said:


> I nominate you as our Red Queen, who is Queen of Hearts to us who love you. Ruby orb on your silver mace and silver scepter to ward off evil ones.


Thanks, Marilyn. I will try to live up to your expectations of me. :thumbup:


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Poor Kai! I envision him looking like "Pigpen" from "Charlie Brown". I'm assuming that you know who I'm talking about. Do you have Charlie Brown, down under? Pigpen was always surrounded by a cloud of dust.


Heehee--"Pig Pen" would have been a good name for our adopted boy, Mr. B. He's a white cat with just a few orange spots, isn't into washing much, and is always covered with smudges and streaks. He likes to roll in the dirt, so when you run a hand through his fur your fingers come away with a layer of dust. He's really the grubbiest cat I've ever seen, but very sweet and even tempered.


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## susanmos2000 (May 10, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It's a Constitutional Convention. It is a meeting of state representatives with the intent of changing the Constitution. The delegates are not chosen by the people. They are chosen by the party in charge, of each state. The people send them with the intent of changing or adding something particular, to the Constitution, but they are not limited to acting on that alone. They could change any part (or all) of our Constitution, without the consent of the people. Green and I disagree on the value of calling for a con con. She thinks we could send them to address the issue of the citizens united ruling, and trust them not to change or add, anything else. I don't trust them. We could very easily lose our Constitutional rights as an unintended consequence.


Hmmm...I stand with you on this one, Nebraska. Our Constitution certainly could use a tune up, but with American politics and society so polarized it could easily turn to disaster.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

I hear some masochists are just fools. Whatever fits. Or never fits. 

cookiequeen wrote:
Oh, dear Lord! She's STILL here banging her head against the wall. Our number one masochist. Don't you think she hates herself for repeatedly posting here?

Protect me from the things I think I know. Cynics get what they expect.

I don't think anything can penetrate that thick skull. She loves to be hated by us at least then she is getting some attention.


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Huckleberry said:


> Cheeky Blighter
> (Court Jester) well stated. BRavo.


Thanks, Huck!


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## Cheeky Blighter (Nov 20, 2011)

Just Beachy said:


> Yes, but I want him to keep in the race for as long as possible so that Hillary can't start hedging.
> 
> She needs to be reminded that staying true to Democratic principles is what will energize people to come out and vote.
> 
> ...


I agree, it's got to be full throttle, pedal on the floor to bring about change we need. :thumbup:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> First of all, I have offered an alternative to socialism many times over. Perhaps, you didn't see it. I propose that we fix what's wrong with our so called capitalism. I don't think that we can even call our current system, capitalism. It has become crony capitalism. I propose that we put into place, some of the same things Green has talked about. We get money out of our elections! I think that the government should either get the TV stations (with content online and in newspapers) to donate time for public Q&As that include all candidates. And I think that one person from each party, should be included, to ask the questions and the questions should be asked of all candidates. I don't like the back and forth name calling and I don't like the incessant commercials. Eliminate them! Just get the information out. Make political donations illegal. Prosecute any politician who takes money or favors from anyone with a political agenda.
> 
> Void all laws, regulations, etc... that favor corporations. Make lobbying illegal. Break up the big banks. Reinstate Glass Steagall. Eliminate the federal reserve and put the Treasury in charge of our currency. Break up monopolies. Hold our representatives responsible for representing us! Allow the people to vote for an Attorney General who will not be beholden to the President who chooses them. Make sure that person is willing to prosecute crooked politicians!
> 
> But most of all, BRING BACK THE JOBS! Our country cannot survive without them. Void the treaties. Put tariffs on imports, so that its not profitable to pay overseas workers pennies a day. The only way we can ever have a living wage, is for there to be more jobs, than people to fill them. Only then, will people earn a fair wage. Raising minimum wage has very little effect, as prices increase to make up for it. Existing workers don't get comparable raises, so they actually fall backwards in wages. Support Unions, BUT only if corruption within the unions is promptly prosecuted. Put the white collar criminals in the same prisons as everyone else. Let them work for pennies an hour! See how they like it!


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Yay! Somebody agrees with me.

Doing the happy dance! :lol:


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Can the congress and Senate be pressured into overturning citizens united? I'm all for it, but I could never support the risk of having a con con.


I've come around to your position on a constitutional convention.

That leaves congress to pass an amendment. So far, they have demonstrated no willingness whatever to do this. However, pressure is mounting and we are hearing more and more conversation on the subject. We have to keep up the pressure and demand this by VOTING for those who support such a change. I truly believe citizens can make it happen but it will take sustained passion and effort.

MovetoAmend.org has adopted the tactic of having businesses, local governments, etc., pass resolutions calling for a constitutional amendment. Their effort is gaining supporters. There are other organizations attacking the problem in various ways, but too many call for reinstating restrictions on amounts of contributions only. The flow of corporate money to politicians must be shut off completely, as well as the flow of money from wealthy individuals.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> It's a Constitutional Convention. It is a meeting of state representatives with the intent of changing the Constitution. The delegates are not chosen by the people. They are chosen by the party in charge, of each state. The people send them with the intent of changing or adding something particular, to the Constitution, but they are not limited to acting on that alone. They could change any part (or all) of our Constitution, without the consent of the people. Green and I disagree on the value of calling for a con con. She thinks we could send them to address the issue of the citizens united ruling, and trust them not to change or add, anything else. I don't trust them. We could very easily lose our Constitutional rights as an unintended consequence.


Remember, constitutional amendments must be passed by 3/4 of the states, which makes radical changes to the constitution unlikely. Nevertheless, people are rightfully fearful of the risk and I don't think there is much chance of achieving the ultimate goal by means of a convention. Support for it is lacking. So, we need to use the other tool available - an amendment passed by congress.

We MUST do this. Our democracy is at stake.

My congressional representative, Paul Gosar, recently visited Payson and spoke to the local Tea Party members. One of our democratic members attended the meeting and asked him what his views were on "dark money" in elections. He unflinchingly said he thought it was a good thing.

THAT, my friends, is why we need to work to unseat people like him. He doesn't even try to hide his willingness to take money from unidentified business interests. Of course, this is to be expected in Arizona, the state identified in a recent Harvard study to be the most corrupt in the US.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Quote KFN
Post shortened

But most of all, BRING BACK THE JOBS! Our country cannot survive without them. Void the treaties. Put tariffs on imports, so that its not profitable to pay overseas workers pennies a day. The only way we can ever have a living wage, is for there to be more jobs, than people to fill them. Only then, will people earn a fair wage. Raising minimum wage has very little effect, as prices increase to make up for it. Existing workers don't get comparable raises, so they actually fall backwards in wages. Support Unions, BUT only if corruption within the unions is promptly prosecuted. Put the white collar criminals in the same prisons as everyone else. Let them work for pennies an hour! See how they like it![end quote]

I agree with you 100% on this. I have always felt since they started outsourcing our jobs to pay people pennies on the dollar, that they should have to pay a tariff to get their goods back into our country.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> Remember, constitutional amendments must be passed by 3/4 of the states, which makes radical changes to the constitution unlikely. Nevertheless, people are rightfully fearful of the risk and I don't think there is much chance of achieving the ultimate goal by means of a convention. Support for it is lacking. So, we need to use the other tool available - an amendment passed by congress.
> 
> We MUST do this. Our democracy is at stake.


Very true, D, but it seems that this congress forgot what democracy is all about. They are more interested in building up their cash flow.
We just have to keep pounding them with letters and petitions and take down Citizens United.
I don't remember where I got this quote but I have posted it on occasion. "Never doubt that a small group of citizens can bring about change. Why? Because they are the only ones who have."


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> I've come around to your position on a constitutional convention.
> 
> That leaves congress to pass an amendment. So far, they have demonstrated no willingness whatever to do this. However, pressure is mounting and we are hearing more and more conversation on the subject. We have to keep up the pressure and demand this by VOTING for those who support such a change. I truly believe citizens can make it happen but it will take sustained passion and effort.
> 
> MovetoAmend.org has adopted the tactic of having businesses, local governments, etc., pass resolutions calling for a constitutional amendment. Their effort is gaining supporters. There are other organizations attacking the problem in various ways, but too many call for reinstating restrictions on amounts of contributions only. The flow of corporate money to politicians must be shut off completely, as well as the flow of money from wealthy individuals.


I am really surprised!

The Move to Amend thing is interesting. I just skimmed over it and will look at it more closely, later. One thing concerns me, and that is the Hobby Lobby ruling. I believe that the owners of a privately held (family held) corporation, should not have to sacrifice their religious beliefs. I don't think I could support an amendment that might force anyone to support abortion, in any manner. This ammendment would probably affect that decision. I'll have to do more reading and give this more thought.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

BrattyPatty said:


> Very true, D, but it seems that congress forgot what democracy is all about. They are more interested in building up their cash flow.
> We just have to keep pounding them with letters and petitions and take down Citizens United.


No, we have to vote the bastards out of office and replace them with progressives.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I stand corrected on personal property. But what would we do? Confiscate everyone's businesses? Make them the property of the state? What of those who have sacrificed everything to build a business? Have they no rights?
> 
> And most importantly, if we can't control a corrupt government under capitalism, how are we to control a corrupt government under socialism? The USSR was a socialist republic. Look what happened to them.


 We are having a problem here in Australia with both the Federal and State Governments outsourcing everything to the private sector. Hospitals and supposed to be public hospitals owned and run by the people through the Government but the Government is opting for what they call 'joint venture - public and private hospitals'. The private enterprises build and run the hospitals but do not charge the patients as private hospitals do, the general public is still entitled to free treatment. Unfortunately the State Government here in WA gave the contract to St Johns Medical, a Catholic run institution. As a result there will be no contraception advice or medical procedures, no termination of pregnancies under any circumstances whether medically needed or not, no sterilisation procedures even for a mother who already has too many mouths to feed. OK said the Government we will just designate part of the new public hospital for these procedures to be carried out. No, said St Johns, you cannot use our hospital for that - never mind it is a public hospital. Ok said the Government we will just build a little stand alone clinic in the corner of the carpark. No, said St John you cannot use any part of our infrastructure to do that, and the car park is part of our infrastructure. OK said the Government then we will build it outside the carpark. No said St John, you cannot use arny part of our infrastructure to do that and the fence around the carpark is part of our infrastructure. And you cannot build the clinic where it can be seen from the main entrance of the hospital. Ummmmm well the main entrance is off the car park so the new clinic would be seen from the main entrance. And there is nowhere else on the site to build the clinic.

The result, the Government is funding a small private operator who runs a clinic somewhere in Midland to provide these services. It is somewhere in one of the back streets of Midland, I know the name of the street but have absolutely no idea where that street is. I have lived here now for 25 years and grew up in Midland or the surrounding area so know Midland very well.

So, you can go to the new hospital, when it opens later in the year, and have your baby but you cannot have a sterilisation procedure when the baby is born even if you have had a caesar for the birth. You will have to go to another maternity hospital once you have recovered from the birth to have the procedure. Yes, that would be King Edward which is about 25 km away from the new hospital. A lot of unnecessary travel and inconvenience for the local mothers.

Then there is the question of a private company being responsible for many of the procedures at the new major Perth Hospital, the Fiona Stanley Hospital. Serco was responsible. Months behind with the opening because they could not get the computer programmes right. They are finding that some of the rooms used for specialist treatment will have to be stripped back to bare rooms because the doctors say there is not enough room to use the cat scans or install the correct cat scans. Then there is the problem with no mobile phone coverage inside the hospital, it is a dead spot because of the material used in the building. Then there was the problem with bringing patients from the wards to the operating rooms, the surgeons were forced to go down to the wards to bring the patients to the theatre. Then there was the problem with the sterilisation of the medical equipment, it was being returned as 'sterilised' and it still had blood and bone attached. Yes the private consortium were stripped of that function. Then there is the problem with parking fees at the hospital car park and the exorbitant parking fees were being charged. The list of problems with this new publicly hospital that is privately run just go on and on and on.

Now the prisons are also being run by private operators, Serco and yes it is the same private operator who let the Aboriginal Elder die in the back of the van when they were transporting him from one prison to another in the heat, well over 100 F. The airconditioning in the back of the van was not working and they people transporting him did not check, they were comfortable in the air conditioned cab. Yes, they had heard him banging on the walls of his little prison but they chose to ignore him. This is the same private company that has allowed prisoners to escape when they have been taking them to hospital for medical attention. It is the same company who let two dangerous prisoners escape when taking them to the airport for transfer to a Perth Gaol. They left the door to the cell compartment unlocked. All the prisoners had to do was open the door and run away, and they did. Now the clowns in State Parliament are making noises about letting the same private operator build, run and maintain prisons. Yeh, sure, we will all feel safe this that. Serco is also running the detention centre for refugees not so far from where I live. Look at the mess the private operators are making of the refugee detention centres on Manus Island.

Then there is the question of schools. The Government is pushing for private schools or private schools to build the state schools as we call our public schools, and the private schools to charge students. State Schools currently charge the children of 457 visa holders to attend state schools.

Then there are the Universities, supposedly financed by the Federal Government, but the Federal Government is reducing the grants and forcing the Universities to charge students. We already have the HEC scheme whereby students pay the government for their study at University. As a result the Universities are looking to attracting more students from Asia as they can charge these students higher fees. The result - less places for Aussie students.

Then there is the privatisation of community services, water, electricity, gas. Some states have privatised these once owned public institutions but the prices have gone up and up and up, more profits for the companies that owned them. The Government's argument was that private ownership would result in lower prices. Please excuse me whilst I have a laughing fit. Telstra was once owned by the people then little Johnny Howard privatised it. Service has been reduced and prices have risen, especially when that fat Yank that everyone hated was in control.



> The USSR was a socialist republic. Look what happened to them


The USSR was a _communist_ regime and it failed because of many, many reasons. Cronyism for a start. Fear was another aspect, lesser minions did not dare question those higher up for fear of retribution. A hang over from the Stalin era. The USSR was not a single country with many different states as is the USA, it was a union of many different countries. Since the downfall of the Communist regime these countries have broken away and become independent countries once again. Many of these countries were invaded and taken under the control of Russia during the Tsar's period of rule. Now there is an example of Capitalism at work, Tsarist Russia. The poor people starved whilst the rich paraded around in their glory. Yes, things were really bad under Stalin but that was Stalin and the dictator or meglomaniac he was. By the way did you know that Stalin was not actually a Russian, he was a Georgian, from Georgia and there has always been a history of unrest between Russia and Georgia. It is much the same with the conflict in the Ukraine today. The Tsars conquered the Ukraine and there was an ideological difference between the two countries. Catholic Ukraine vs Orthodox Russia. Throw into that mix the Cossacks who were not all that willing to bend their knee to Russia. A lot of people in Russia who now march around and call themselves Cossacks are in fact not Cossacks.

The downfall of the USSR was due to many, many factors, not just socialism. You ask "how are we to control a corrupt government under socialism"? Well, how do you control a corrupt government under capitalism.

The USSR was Communist despite the fact that it had the word 'socialist' in its name. I honestly think that Mccarthyism is still very alive and kicking in the USA.

Russia was called Holy Mother Russia for a very good reason. The church was never eradicated from Russia despite severe oppression. It was still kept alive in many, many homes. Witness how quickly the churches were rebuilt after the Communist regime failed. Did you know that the Patriarchs of the Orthodox blessed the Russian troops before they went into battle in the Great Patriotic War? Did you know that the great Stalin himself even went to Confession on several occasions?

Communism is not Socialism and Socialism is not Communism. We are just seeing the argument from a different point of view and we are all entitled to express our point of view.

I just realised that this is the beauty of this site. We can all freely express our different opinions without calling each other horrid names or saying the other person is stupid, ignorant, brain dead, or resorting to trawling through posts from many years ago to prove a point. But I guess that a certain nameless poster is happy to do that, at least it keeps her occupied and off the streets. At least we are not hitting each other over the head and telling each other that the only point of view that matters is the one they hold.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

DGreen said:


> No, we have to vote the bastards out of office and replace them with progressives.


That too!


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> Remember, constitutional amendments must be passed by 3/4 of the states, which makes radical changes to the constitution unlikely. Nevertheless, people are rightfully fearful of the risk and I don't think there is much chance of achieving the ultimate goal by means of a convention. Support for it is lacking. So, we need to use the other tool available - an amendment passed by congress.
> 
> We MUST do this. Our democracy is at stake.
> 
> ...


I would definitely support an amendment that dealt with election reform. I just don't like the wording used in the Move to Amend movement. I need to read more and think about it.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Quote KFN
> Post shortened
> 
> But most of all, BRING BACK THE JOBS! Our country cannot survive without them. Void the treaties. Put tariffs on imports, so that its not profitable to pay overseas workers pennies a day. The only way we can ever have a living wage, is for there to be more jobs, than people to fill them. Only then, will people earn a fair wage. Raising minimum wage has very little effect, as prices increase to make up for it. Existing workers don't get comparable raises, so they actually fall backwards in wages. Support Unions, BUT only if corruption within the unions is promptly prosecuted. Put the white collar criminals in the same prisons as everyone else. Let them work for pennies an hour! See how they like it![end quote]
> ...


Oh! Another one! I'm on a roll. :lol:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

BrattyPatty said:


> Very true, D, but it seems that this congress forgot what democracy is all about. They are more interested in building up their cash flow.
> We just have to keep pounding them with letters and petitions and take down Citizens United.
> I don't remember where I got this quote but I have posted it on occasion. "Never doubt that a small group of citizens can bring about change. Why? Because they are the only ones who have."


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

DGreen said:


> No, we have to vote the bastards out of office and replace them with progressives.


How about if we just replace them with honest people who will represent their constituents?

We have things in common, but not that much.


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## DGreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> I am really surprised!
> 
> The Move to Amend thing is interesting. I just skimmed over it and will look at it more closely, later. One thing concerns me, and that is the Hobby Lobby ruling. I believe that the owners of a privately held (family held) corporation, should not have to sacrifice their religious beliefs. I don't think I could support an amendment that might force anyone to support abortion, in any manner. This ammendment would probably affect that decision. I'll have to do more reading and give this more thought.


How would an amendment to overturn Citizens United affect religion or abortion rights? I see those as totally separate issues.

The Supreme Court decision on Hobby Lobby was based on enforcing the Restoration of Religious Freedom Act and had nothing to do with money or campaign contributions or elections, for that matter.


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## BrattyPatty (May 2, 2011)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> How about if we just replace them with honest people who will represent their constituents?
> 
> We have things in common, but not that much.


Funny, isn't that what we thought we were doing? :- On a serious note, I believe that there is hope for the changes we need to make.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> First of all, I have offered an alternative to socialism many times over. Perhaps, you didn't see it. I propose that we fix what's wrong with our so called capitalism. I don't think that we can even call our current system, capitalism. It has become crony capitalism. I propose that we put into place, some of the same things Green has talked about. We get money out of our elections! I think that the government should either get the TV stations (with content online and in newspapers) to donate time for public Q&As that include all candidates. And I think that one person from each party, should be included, to ask the questions and the questions should be asked of all candidates. I don't like the back and forth name calling and I don't like the incessant commercials. Eliminate them! Just get the information out. Make political donations illegal. Prosecute any politician who takes money or favors from anyone with a political agenda.
> 
> Void all laws, regulations, etc... that favor corporations. Make lobbying illegal. Break up the big banks. Reinstate Glass Steagall. Eliminate the federal reserve and put the Treasury in charge of our currency. Break up monopolies. Hold our representatives responsible for representing us! Allow the people to vote for an Attorney General who will not be beholden to the President who chooses them. Make sure that person is willing to prosecute crooked politicians!
> 
> But most of all, BRING BACK THE JOBS! Our country cannot survive without them. Void the treaties. Put tariffs on imports, so that its not profitable to pay overseas workers pennies a day. The only way we can ever have a living wage, is for there to be more jobs, than people to fill them. Only then, will people earn a fair wage. Raising minimum wage has very little effect, as prices increase to make up for it. Existing workers don't get comparable raises, so they actually fall backwards in wages. Support Unions, BUT only if corruption within the unions is promptly prosecuted. Put the white collar criminals in the same prisons as everyone else. Let them work for pennies an hour! See how they like it!


It would be extremely hard to put an end to lobbying, you would just drive it underground. Besides a professional lobbyist know how to phrase a question and who would be the best party to lobby. If you want to see how underground lobbying corrupts politicians you could examine the cess pool of Australian Politics whereby big business paid the politicians to grant them mining leases, etc.

For example

Senator Mark Arbib resigns amid speculation of his shady financial dealings and involvement in the Craig Thomson cover-up.

Australian corruption findings highlight Labor Partys decay By Mike Head 10 August 2013

In a further damning exposure of the putrid, corporate-dominated character of the Australian Labor Party, corruption findings have been issued against millionaire businessman Eddie Obeid, the former head of the ALPs dominant right-wing machine in the state of New South Wales, and ex-state Resources Minister Ian Macdonald.
Three detailed reports by the NSW governments Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) were released last month. They provide a glimpse into the intimate relations between ALP leaders and wealthy businessmen

http://www.yourlifechoices.com.au/the_meeting_place/7013?page=2

The money was not paid directly to the politicians but covered up in a network of companies and deals. White collar criminals always get a better deal in prison than common criminals. Just look at Allan Bond. What a conman, went bankrupt using other people's money, went to prison and then came out and became a billionaire again whilst the ordinary man and woman who invested in his companies and went bankrupt losing all their savings and their homes are still living on queer street.

As for the reintroduction of tariffs and scrapping trade agreements, well that could work against the USA. Other countries would then retaliate by trading with the countries that are signatories to the trade agreement to the exclusion of the USA and the USA would lose valuable export markets. If the USA reintroduced tariffs on imported goods then other countries would do the same to their import from the USA, resulting in a loss of export $$$s for the USA.


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## Knitted by Nan (Aug 3, 2013)

Knitter from Nebraska said:


> Poor Kai! I envision him looking like "Pigpen" from "Charlie Brown". I'm assuming that you know who I'm talking about. Do you have Charlie Brown, down under? Pigpen was always surrounded by a cloud of dust.


Yes we have Charlie Brown in Oz.


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## Knitter from Nebraska (Jun 9, 2013)

EveMCooke said:


> The USSR was a _communist_ regime and it failed because of many, many reasons. Cronyism for a start. Fear was another aspect, lesser minions did not dare question those higher up for fear of retribution. A hang over from the Stalin era. The USSR was not a single country with many different states as is the USA, it was a union of many different countries. Since the downfall of the Communist regime these countries have broken away and become independent countries once again. Many of these countries were invaded and taken under the control of Russia during the Tsar's period of rule. Now there is an example of Capitalism at work, Tsarist Russia. The poor people starved whilst the rich paraded around in their glory. Yes, things were really bad under Stalin but that was Stalin and the dictator or meglomaniac he was. By the way did you know that Stalin was not actually a Russian, he was a Georgian, from Georgia and there has always been a history of unrest between Russia and Georgia. It is much the same with the conflict in the Ukraine today. The Tsars conquered the Ukraine and there was an ideological difference between the two countries. Catholic Ukraine vs Orthodox Russia. Throw into that mix the Cossacks who were not all that willing to bend their knee to Russia. A lot of people in Russia who now march around and call themselves Cossacks are in fact not Cossacks.
> 
> The downfall of the USSR was due to many, many factors, not just socialism. You ask "how are we to control a corrupt government under socialism"? Well, how do you control a corrupt government under capitalism.
> 
> ...


There are several things in this post that I'd like to respond to, but I'm just too tired to think straight. I'll address it tomorrow. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you, but I can't even finish reading it.

Good night, everyone! Great discussions! Thanks!


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