# Copywrite question



## JeanneE (Jan 13, 2012)

I have been asked by several of you kind knitters for a couple of different patterns for the bags and afghans that I have made.
I would love to give them to you but being fairly new I am not sure about the copywrite laws. No, I don't know about them at all.
I have several pattern books that I use but cannot find any copywrite info printed in or on the books. Does that mean that I can put the patterns on line or send a copy via mail?
I have been on the forum for about 6 weeks now and absolutely love it. Have to start limiting my time online because it is so habit forming that I am cutting into my knitting time.


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## mirl56 (Dec 20, 2011)

No, if you got the patterns out of books, the only thing you can do is post the name & author of the book. It would be a copywrite violation to post the patterns.


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## JeanneE (Jan 13, 2012)

Thank you for clearing that up for me.


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## laurie4 (Nov 3, 2011)

i would pm the person get her email and send to her that is what i do i paid for my patterns and i share many patterns you cannot get anymore


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## yukonjack46 (Nov 3, 2011)

As long as you share individually thru emails you are not breaking copyright laws. It's when you post openly on websites. sharing thru email is like lending the book.


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## JeanneE (Jan 13, 2012)

I am so glad to hear this, thank you!


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## yukonjack46 (Nov 3, 2011)

yw


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

yukonjack46 said:


> As long as you share individually thru emails you are not breaking copyright laws. It's when you post openly on websites. sharing thru email is like lending the book.


Yes you are breaking copyright laws.
Copyright statements on patterns in part say that the pattern is to NOT be transmitted in any form electronically without prior written permission from the designer/copyright holder.

Just because you send them through e-mail does not justify your right to break the law. You are in essence breaking the law under secrecy.

No you can not post the patterns on forums openly, because this can have the site shut down, and the site owner(s) can be held liable for the copyright infringement just as much as the poster is.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

JeanneE said:


> I am so glad to hear this, thank you!


Please do a search on this site for "copyright".
This has been discussed MANY times.
Please take the time to read through as many as you can be get a better "feel" as to what is and isn't copyright infringement.
Basically, the only time it isn't infringement is when you have prior written consent from the designer/copyright holder to share.


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## dottie2 (Mar 22, 2011)

I would just list where the pattern can be found and let everyone get it that way. I know it is easier if someone justs sends you the pattern but to be safe just list where to locate it.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Duplication and distribution of copyrighted material in any form is copyright infringement. 

While "sharing" might seem harmless, it is NOT. You can lend a friend a book but you may not duplicate or distribute the material contained within it. Copyright information need NOT appear in a book, it is automatically extended to the author(s) upon publication.

Think of it this way, stores do not have to put up signs that state "no stealing", it's against the law.


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## BarbaraSD (Mar 10, 2011)

I've never really understood the big fuss about pattern copyrights. Goodness, haven't we all shared a recipe? Wouldn't those also be considered copyrighted if taken from a recipe book?



JeanneE said:


> I have been asked by several of you kind knitters for a couple of different patterns for the bags and afghans that I have made.
> I would love to give them to you but being fairly new I am not sure about the copywrite laws. No, I don't know about them at all.
> I have several pattern books that I use but cannot find any copywrite info printed in or on the books. Does that mean that I can put the patterns on line or send a copy via mail?
> I have been on the forum for about 6 weeks now and absolutely love it. Have to start limiting my time online because it is so habit forming that I am cutting into my knitting time.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Duplication and distribution of copyrighted material in any form is copyright infringement.
> 
> While "sharing" might seem harmless, it is NOT. You can lend a friend a book but you may not duplicate or distribute the material contained within it. Copyright information need NOT appear in a book, it is automatically extended to the author(s) upon publication.
> 
> Think of it this way, stores do not have to put up signs that state "no stealing", it's against the law.


Absolutely!

Anything you want to share, either give or sell the person the original physical copy of the book when you've finished with it, or give them the references they need to purchase it for themselves.

If you see a pattern on the internet, give your friend the reference for that page so they can look it up for themselves, sharing a web address is legal, cut and paste is not.

It's really quite simple, piracy is a crime!

Dave


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## UndinesSeamstress (Dec 21, 2011)

yukonjack46 said:


> As long as you share individually thru emails you are not breaking copyright laws. It's when you post openly on websites. sharing thru email is like lending the book.


This is absolutely false. When you share ANY patterns in a book or magazine in any way other than giving away the physical thing on which the pattern is written (or sell it), you are violating the COPYRIGHT holder's Right to Exclusively Reproduce and Distribute the pattern. End of conversation. Think about Green Eggs and Ham. Sam I Am is the absolute BEST illustration of how copyright works EVER. The Green Eggs and Ham are the pattern. If Sam I AM will not eat them, then the copyright holder's rights are boing violated. Hope this helps.


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## BarbaraSD (Mar 10, 2011)

Again I ask. What is the difference between sharing a pattern and sharing a recipe? We all share recipes. In fact, we do it quite often here on KP.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

BarbaraSD, I have patterns on the market when someone duplicates one of my patterns and "shares" it with a friend they are denying me a sale. People make their living designing patterns, selling books, writing songs, composing music, etc.. They should be paid for their work. The taking of the "intellectual property" of another and giving it away takes money out of the pocket of the copyright holder. Please read up on copyright law, I realize it's a complex issue but not all that difficult to understand.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Sharing a recipe isn't denying anyone a "sale"...duplicating, then sharing patterns or duplicating patterns out of books and sharing them denies the designer/author sales..you know income they use to pay bills, buy groceries, put clothes on their childrens backs?


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## yukonjack46 (Nov 3, 2011)

I hate to burst the bubbles of all the negative responses but it is not copyright infringement when you GIVE someone something that belongs to you. There is no difference in sending it email, regular mail or letting someone copy it straight from the book as long as you are not selling, posting or openly advertising this pattern or anything else for that matter.If I give you a movie or a CD etc, I am not promoting anything of these copyrights. Yes piracy is illegal as these items ARE copied and shared in various ways. I know this as I deal with legal matters daily as I am a Lawyer and if you don't know the facts then don't giver answers that you know nothing about. This subject has been brought up so many times and the answers get more incredible each and every time. My best advice to anyone is if you are in doubt and it don't feel right then don't do it, but for everyone's sake, please keep unacknowledged advice to yourselves as this causes mass confusion for all concerned, and this is all I will respond on this subject. If you DON'T know the LAW fully, then don't give advice! ! !


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Sending it in an email means you have "duplicated" the information and distributed it. You may well be an attorney but you obviously do not understand copyright law. I can buy a book of knitting patterns and LEND that book to someone, what I may NOT do, under current copyright law, is to "duplicate and distribute" any of the patterns it contains (in any format or genre) without the permission of the copyright holder.

I was the victim of copyright infringement some years ago and brought the matter into our civil courts, where I was awarded damages, including punitive damages and legal representation costs. It would have been cheaper for the "thief" to pay me up front for my intellectual property than to have stolen it from me.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

yukonjack46 said:


> I hate to burst the bubbles of all the negative responses but it is not copyright infringement when you GIVE someone something that belongs to you. There is no difference in sending it email, regular mail or letting someone copy it straight from the book as long as you are not selling, posting or openly advertising this pattern or anything else for that matter.If I give you a movie or a CD etc, I am not promoting anything of these copyrights. Yes piracy is illegal as these items ARE copied and shared in various ways. I know this as I deal with legal matters daily as I am a Lawyer and if you don't know the facts then don't giver answers that you know nothing about. This subject has been brought up so many times and the answers get more incredible each and every time. My best advice to anyone is if you are in doubt and it don't feel right then don't do it, but for everyone's sake, please keep unacknowledged advice to yourselves as this causes mass confusion for all concerned, and this is all I will respond on this subject. If you DON'T know the LAW fully, then don't give advice! ! !


Really?
Your bio says you are retired and then you are a preacher.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

BarbaraSD said:


> Again I ask. What is the difference between sharing a pattern and sharing a recipe? We all share recipes. In fact, we do it quite often here on KP.


There have been numerous court cases over them, many relating to the cookery column in newspapers and the office photocopier.

The general working in principle in most territories is based on two rulings. Firstly, a receipt or recipe, is a list of ingredients and a set of instructions for a process, this is not subject to copyright, but comes under patent law. Furthermore, many are for well-established traditional dishes that have been around for many years and the origin is unknown. Secondly, there is the question of format and the proportion of the total publication a few column inches represents. There have been a number of rulings that it is unreasonable for a newspaper to expect to sell a separate copy to every single person who wanted to make beef stew.

There are exceptions, reproducing detailed instructions for decorating a cake in a particular way would infringe the rights of the originator. The design and appearance of the cake, together with any templates or patterns are treated as 'artistic' works and therefore subject to copyright.

A story that includes the instructions for preparing a particular dish is also subject to copyright. The receipt, or recipe, isn't the problem, it is the arrangement of prose and format that is protected.

The answer to your question is that it depends on the context and presentation of the original. The same is not the case with a knitting pattern, it is considered to be a creative work and is fully protected. A pattern posted on this site, for example, is for people to download and print for their own personal use. It may not be duplicated, re-packaged, re-formatted, distributed or sold without the originator's consent; if you want to share, post a link to the appropriate page.

Dave


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I think a certain "attorney" needs a refresher course in copyright law! Advocating the use of a computer to commit copyright fraud is like telling an arsonist to use their credit card when they purchase that can of gas!


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Sharing a recipe isn't denying anyone a "sale"...duplicating, then sharing patterns or duplicating patterns out of books and sharing them denies the designer/author sales..you know income they use to pay bills, buy groceries, put clothes on their childrens backs?


Beyond that you, as the designer, are associated with that work. Shoddy reproduction of your creative work can seriously damage your reputation and future ability to market your work.

I totally agree with you. Without copyright protection, nobody will bother to design and publish their patterns, designers and artists have to eat, they'd do have to do something else!

Dave


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

courier770 said:


> I think a certain "attorney" needs a refresher course in copyright law! Advocating the use of a computer to commit copyright fraud is like telling an arsonist to use their credit card when they purchase that can of gas!


I'm glad my legal rottweilers are better!

Dave


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Dave you always crack me up. I don't use Rottweilers..but the firm of Dewey, Cheatem and Howe! 

Seriously though a good, competent attorney really does understand copyright law and would never advocate the circumvention of copyright law...on any continent, in any manner.

Those whose "artistic talent" is protected by copyright have very much enriched my life...writers, poets, song writers, composers, fellow knitting designers, the list is endless.

Back when I lived in the Chicago area, I had a friend in the concrete business...a wise man, who I learned much from. We can all learn from others. I think of this fellow now and then, his wisdom, his ability to use simple words to explain complex problems. If you didn't agree with him, he was more likely to order you another pint than to fight with you. We need more people like him!


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

I just hope JeanneE (the original poster) reads these posts as she is a fairly new member.

Dave...
I think we may all have better ones! :shock: :mrgreen:


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

I'm so happy that I'm not the only Copyright Police here!

And YukonJack... seriously?


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## BarbaraSD (Mar 10, 2011)

courier770 said:


> BarbaraSD, I have patterns on the market when someone duplicates one of my patterns and "shares" it with a friend they are denying me a sale. People make their living designing patterns, selling books, writing songs, composing music, etc.. They should be paid for their work. The taking of the "intellectual property" of another and giving it away takes money out of the pocket of the copyright holder. Please read up on copyright law, I realize it's a complex issue but not all that difficult to understand.


People also make money inventing new recipes and writing cookbooks yet no one seems to have a problem with sharing recipes.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Sewbizgirl...there's an old joke..what do they call the person who graduated LAST in medical school? Doctor! The same can be said of law school!

Just because someone has a law degree, doesn't make them a "top notch" attorney! Just because someone "claims" they are an attorney, doesn't make it true either.

The "idiocy" of their advice couldn't be clearer.


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## BarbaraSD (Mar 10, 2011)

Sure it is. You share a recipe and deny the cookbook editor/seller a sale of that cookbook.



courier770 said:


> Sharing a recipe isn't denying anyone a "sale"...duplicating, then sharing patterns or duplicating patterns out of books and sharing them denies the designer/author sales..you know income they use to pay bills, buy groceries, put clothes on their childrens backs?


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## BarbaraSD (Mar 10, 2011)

And what about patterns that are sold on eBay where the pattern has been cut out of a book and sold individually.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Barbara, I'm sorry that you do not seem to respect that people actually make their living doing these things..go ahead, share all you want...just make darn sure you don't share MY copyrighted patterns or I'll be more than happy to haul your behind into court. I've done it before and I'll be more than happy to do it again to anyone who dares to "steal" from me. Kindly read up on copyright law! Get a tutor if you need to, clearly you do not understand the law. You can obtain copies in braille, you can even request a translator, in case you do not understand the English language. 

Ignorance of the law is never accepted as an excuse by the courts.

If someone wants to cut up a book that they PAID for and resell it, while not duplicating it, they are free to do so...but they may NOT, under the law, duplicate/replicate the information and distribute it. When you purchase a book, you can keep it, resell it, or even burn it in your fireplace..but you may NOT duplicate it in toto or part and distribute it. 

You are now splitting hairs, and showing your ignorance of the law. 

You have made it very clear, in your posts, that you do not respect/understand copyright law. In addition you are being argumentative and downright disrespectful of those, like me, who derive income or a portion of their income from designing. You know what? you are free to design your own patterns and share them with the entire free world, just don't tell the rest of us what we should do until you understand the law! Got it???


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## UndinesSeamstress (Dec 21, 2011)

http://www.wahceinc.org/copyright.doc

there isn't a difference between sharing recipes and sharing patterns.

there is no matter of opinion. the law could not care less about your opinion.


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## UndinesSeamstress (Dec 21, 2011)

Geez Courier770, are we going to go through this crap again?

We should just do a section of the site for copyright and call it a day. this is really turning me off to the whole site.


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## BarbaraSD (Mar 10, 2011)

Your haranguing me is pointless. You are becoming agressive when all I'm asking is what is the difference between sharing patterns and sharing recipes? I am being argumentative? Sweetheart, re-read what you just wrote to me.



courier770 said:


> Barbara, I'm sorry that you do not seem to respect that people actually make their living doing these things..go ahead, share all you want...just make darn sure you don't share MY copyrighted patterns or I'll be more than happy to haul your behind into court. I've done it before and I'll be more than happy to do it again to anyone who dares to "steal" from me. Kindly read up on copyright law! Get a tutor if you need to, clearly you do not understand the law. You can obtain copies in braille, you can even request a translator, in case you do not understand the English language.
> 
> Ignorance of the law is never accepted as an excuse by the courts.
> 
> ...


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## BarbaraSD (Mar 10, 2011)

Now, now. don't get your panties in a bunch. Your vitriol attitude can't be healthy. Maybe you need to get your Prozac renewed.



courier770 said:


> Barbara, I'm sorry that you do not seem to respect that people actually make their living doing these things..go ahead, share all you want...just make darn sure you don't share MY copyrighted patterns or I'll be more than happy to haul your behind into court. I've done it before and I'll be more than happy to do it again to anyone who dares to "steal" from me. Kindly read up on copyright law! Get a tutor if you need to, clearly you do not understand the law. You can obtain copies in braille, you can even request a translator, in case you do not understand the English language.
> 
> Ignorance of the law is never accepted as an excuse by the courts.
> 
> ...


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

BarbaraSD said:


> courier770 said:
> 
> 
> > BarbaraSD, I have patterns on the market when someone duplicates one of my patterns and "shares" it with a friend they are denying me a sale. People make their living designing patterns, selling books, writing songs, composing music, etc.. They should be paid for their work. The taking of the "intellectual property" of another and giving it away takes money out of the pocket of the copyright holder. Please read up on copyright law, I realize it's a complex issue but not all that difficult to understand.
> ...


Barbara, any written text is copyright protected. Automatically. So when you scan or photocopy pages out of any book with the purpose of distribution, (even a cookbook), you are in violation of copyright law.

Most people "hybrid" a recipe they have made so many times, making their own changes or adapting it to their diet or their family's preference, over time. If that is shared, then it's your own work you are sharing. It's no longer in someone else's word format. That type of recipe sharing has gone on forever.

Don't use sharing family recipes as your excuse to share copyrighted patterns. Not the same thing at all.

Copyright protects a person's written words. This includes recipes published in books and magazines. Maybe more people would be careful about the recipes they share if they had been challenged in a court of law more often. Hope you aren't the first to be hit with a lawsuit for copying and distributing a published recipe.

And YukonJack, you do not own the copy or distribution rights to the patterns you have purchased. The money you paid for your patterns bought you a license for _your own personal use only_. If you _were_ an attorney, you would know this. :roll:


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

BarbaraSD said:


> Now, now. don't get your panties in a bunch. Your vitriol attitude can't be healthy. Maybe you need to get your Prozac renewed.


And, with that comment we have just crossed over from an adult discussion of the issue into personal attacks and childish baiting. I am embarrased for you.

It only takes one person retreating to the low ground to shut down a mature discussion.


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## UndinesSeamstress (Dec 21, 2011)

Oh dear Courier770... Are you being a great big nasty Spinning Wheel again? Or has the Guilt1Knit1 been recycled as another argumentative troll? And that would make me Undies Seamstress. Yukon Cornelius might benefit from reading Idiots for Dummies, and BarbaraSD could just do a search in google on the words "copyright" "recipe" "pattern" and find all that she needs to know the difference between copyright on a recipe and a pattern. Of course, then she wouldn't be having as much fun being a pain in the rear.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I truly resent the Prozac comment, it's uncalled for, it's rude and if you took the time to actually read up on copyright you'd realize that attacking ME personally is foolhardy. Read up on the law. you may not like it, you may not agree with it..but it's the law.

Insulting me may make you feel better, understanding the law will make you feel quite a bit better. 

I am so sorry that you do not understand this topic. Please educate yourself rather than attacking others...it's so much "classier".


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## JeanneE (Jan 13, 2012)

Oh my, I am taking a very deep breath here and wondering if I can even lend my neighbor a baby blanket pattern that she wants to do for her first grandbaby.
Didn't know that my question was going to open a can or worms. 
Likewise am giving second thoughts to giving the pattern of the bag I made for my sister so she can make one for her daughter, my neice.
Was so enjoying this forum and after some thought have decided that this discussion is a good thing and I can learn so much. Thanks for all of the input.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Copyright is a very serious issue. Making light of it, is to make light of the intellectual property of others. I don't know about most of you but MY life has been very enriched by the talents of others. Respecting their talent and their property is ethical and moral. 

Oh yes anyone can copy and distribute Glenn Millers compositions..but does that make them Glenn Miller? NO. Anyone can copy the work of Michael Jackson...does that make them Michael Jackson..surely not and you'll land your behind in a court of law if you "steal" his work.

If you don't respect the talent and work of others, just exactly what do you respect? The ability to copy and paste, on a computer, doesn't make one a genius, the ability to compose the original work does though.

When people don't respect the intellectual property of others it devalues the talent of everyone. There will only be ONE Shakespeare, ONE Elvis, ONE Debbi Bliss, ONE John Gresham, ONE Elton John... the list is endless. If you are all that talented...then create your own imortality don't steal someone elses!


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

Recipes and receipts have been the subject of many many court cases. The current accepted application of copyright law is that the list of ingredients and the basic instructions that use words like 'mix', 'combine', fold', 'stir', 'bake' etc., are a process and not generally subject to copyright. The format, presentatation, selection of dishes, descriptive text, historical notes, photographs and illustrations that go to make up a cookery book are subject to copyright as a total entity. 

Going back to the cookery column in a newspaper, this was the key issue in these cases. Several newspaper proprietors tried to argue that everyone who wanted a particular recipe should buy a copy of their newspaper and attempted to sue several companies for allowing their staff to photocopy the cookery column. After many appeals, the courts in America and Europe ruled this was permissable, provided it was for personal use and not for sale. 


Yes it does infringe copyright to do this, but the courts currently interpret the law to permit this particular infringement to this very limited extent.

I hope that clarifies the way the law relating to cooking instructions is applied.

A knitting pattern or stitch chart is different. A chart, or a written equivalent, is the same as any drawing or photograph, it is viewed as original artwork and is therefore subject to full copyright protection.

Dave


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

BarbaraSD said:


> And what about patterns that are sold on eBay where the pattern has been cut out of a book and sold individually.


This is the same as print-sellers who have been legally selling illustrations cut out of books for years.

Dave


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## mirl56 (Dec 20, 2011)

yukonjack46 said:


> As long as you share individually thru emails you are not breaking copyright laws. It's when you post openly on websites. sharing thru email is like lending the book.


I don't want to start a copywrite war or anything, but this is not true. :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


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## BarbaraSD (Mar 10, 2011)

And Curior77 hadn't first? She did the slinging first. Get your facts straight. But this is the last I will comment on this issue. You or whoever may have the last word because it is far more important for you or whoever to have it.



Sewbizgirl said:


> BarbaraSD said:
> 
> 
> > Now, now. don't get your panties in a bunch. Your vitriol attitude can't be healthy. Maybe you need to get your Prozac renewed.
> ...


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Yes well when someone lowers themselves into this kind of vitrolic commentary, you have to expect people to respond....FYI, it's NONE of your damn business what medications I am on, though since you stuck your big nose into it.I am on medications for glaucoma...idiot!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

People who think that copyright law is "interpretive" need to really read up on this issue..or they may find themselves on the losing losing end of a civil lawsuit. Making nasty comments about "medication" simply shows a lack of "good breeding"..when you are losing an argument, take the time to research rather than insult.

It simply amazes me the number of people who think this law is "interpretive". No it doesn't matter what you think, or what you feel is right..the law is the law. 

Copyright infringement is stealing..no two ways about it. You can steal a square of bubble gum that cost 10 cents or a car that costs 10k..it's still stealing. Stealing a "little" doesn't make you less of a thief...it just makes you a thief with lower standards.

Stealing from a grandmother or stealing from a 12 year old, well it still makes you a thief.

Those who justify stealing..are still thieves...they are just thieves who figured out a way to look in the mirror.


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## -knitter (Aug 22, 2011)

There MUST be a better way to discuss this. I am completely turned off and would much rather talk about knitting.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

BarbaraSD said:


> I've never really understood the big fuss about pattern copyrights. Goodness, haven't we all shared a recipe? Wouldn't those also be considered copyrighted if taken from a recipe book?


Actually, I've had this very item come up in my family. This is really hair-splitting, but...recipes themselves cannot be copyrighted. But the page from the book is copyrighted. So, you would be prosecuted for copying the page, not the recipe.

That said, the entire pattern for a scarf is seen differently in the courts. You could be prosecuted for copyright infringement on both the pattern and the page. Got it?


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## pocono.carol (Nov 30, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Barbara, I'm sorry that you do not seem to respect that people actually make their living doing these things..go ahead, share all you want...just make darn sure you don't share MY copyrighted patterns or I'll be more than happy to haul your behind into court. I've done it before and I'll be more than happy to do it again to anyone who dares to "steal" from me. Kindly read up on copyright law! Get a tutor if you need to, clearly you do not understand the law. You can obtain copies in braille, you can even request a translator, in case you do not understand the English language.
> 
> Ignorance of the law is never accepted as an excuse by the courts.
> 
> ...


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

You may prefer to talk about knitting but his IS a knitting related topic..more importantly it's a topic that affects the income of knitting pattern designers.

It seems to never be a "polite" topic, as you have seen...hence the rude and uncalled for comments about medication.

Copyright Law is ..well LAW. You violate it and you may find yourself on the losing end of a very nasty lawsuit.

You don't have to agree with it, you don't have to like it..but you MUST respect it...just as you must respect any other set of laws.

It doesn't matter if you speed by 5mph, 10 mph or 50 mph its still speeding!

Obey the law, you won't have a problem.


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## -knitter (Aug 22, 2011)

MUST you always be on a soapbox??


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## mtalmage (Apr 5, 2011)

So-o-o sorry I opened this thread. I should have known better. 

I found someone asking a legitimate question about copyrights. Then some folks offering information on the subject. THEN, follows more questions by more folks trying to understand copyrights and offering hypothetical examples (i.e the recipe questions) as comparison questions. I read these questions as folks truly trying to understand the differences in how copyrights apply in varying circumstances. 

THEN, the sheet hit the fan. There was no reason for it to happen here. If you want to explain something, then explain it. Use examples, offer visuals (if applicable), ask if anyone else has a better way of explaining. Attacking, telling them to read in another language or Braille simply makes a questioner feel small and angry - and retort. Think back to when you were in school and the teacher called you stupid because you didn't understand.You stopped asking. And if you could have, you would stop going to class. 

I love this site. If this continues, I am gone.


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## UndinesSeamstress (Dec 21, 2011)

-knitter said:


> MUST you always be on a soapbox??


For those of us who have had our intellectual property stolen, this is a HORRIFIC crime. Courier770 and I have had several private exchanges and she is a lovely, intelligent, thoughtful, sweet, generous, and gracious person. She also works very very hard to make a living at creating something that we derive pleasure from. She makes a good living which allows her to spend some of her time designing for our benefit, but she isn't the first person I would go to if I needed $100. She doesn't have it. Instead, she has talent and time, and she just does not want to be robbed of her money.

We can ONLY be experts on our own experiences. When I was in graduate school, I wrote 3 papers for one of my professors. Each of these papers were published under my name, with the professor acknowledged as the owner of the data. Shortly after I graduated with my master's degree, I learned that he had taken all three of my papers and submitted them to a publisher to have them included in a book as a book chapter. He gets approximately $3.50 EVERY SINGLE TIME that chapter is referenced in any paper, book, speech, or other sponsored venue. Of that $3.50, I get absolutely nothing. If I had just 10% of the royalties that he has stolen from me, well, I'd be using handspun alpaca instead of Red Heart nuclear war strength yarn.

So, do what you are going to do... chances are that no one will really know what you do anyway. Yukon Cornelius, educate yourself on the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). And let's remember that the drugs people are on are not anyone's business. No one is making any of this up. CopyRIGHT (not copywrite) is not that complicated to understand, and remember that it is a contentious issue BECAUSE it deals with people locked in an inevitable conflict--some people don't want to pay for things and other people have children to feed. And when the people who want something for free meet up with the people who have children to feed in the same place, well, conflict cannot be avoided.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

I get infuriated by having my work stolen too, in my case it's photographic images that were stolen and pirated, some ended up on badly printed t-shirts. Piracy is everywhere and it is pernicious, from cut and paste on the web, to bootleg DVDs, counterfeit perfumes, hijacked texts and the thousand other ways criminals use to get something for nothing. 

Piracy is not victimless, it hurts the originator and his or her future. Prosecuting violators isn't cheap either, it costs time and money to take legal action, time an artist could better spend being creative. 

People who steal the work of others are pestilential vermin!

Dave


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## mtalmage (Apr 5, 2011)

Piracy is a terrible crime. Stealing from anyone is awful. On a much smaller scale I have had professors steal from me as well, mostly because they were flat out lazy. (They both, 25 years apart, took my student papers and used them, one for future instruction and the other for presentation to the NYC school board.)

But that is not what I, at least, was referring to. This conversation got unnecessarily virulent. I still believe that several posters were trying to understand and were looking for clarification. I took the questions as offering alternative contexts much as students in a class might ask, "But what about _____?" No one who truly wants the questioner to understand resorts to name calling and statements like, "get a tutor". This unpleasant tone was unnecessary. The important information was lost in the nastiness.


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## UndinesSeamstress (Dec 21, 2011)

mtalmage said:


> Piracy is a terrible crime. Stealing from anyone is awful. On a much smaller scale I have had professors steal from me as well, mostly because they were flat out lazy. (They both, 25 years apart, took my student papers and used them, one for future instruction and the other for presentation to the NYC school board.)
> 
> But that is not what I, at least, was referring to. This conversation got unnecessarily virulent. I still believe that several posters were trying to understand and were looking for clarification. I took the questions as offering alternative contexts much as students in a class might ask, "But what about _____?" No one who truly wants the questioner to understand resorts to name calling and statements like, "get a tutor". This unpleasant tone was unnecessary. The important information was lost in the nastiness.


You are absolutely right that the information gets lost when uncivility rears its ugly head. I think that some of us feel very frustrated that this issue comes up so often and gets so contentious. I can understand that sometimes people feel attacked for the actual words they use, and sometimes things could be phrased a little less aggressively.

A couple of years ago a woman gave birth to her first child, and decided that she was going to breastfeed her child and not let breastfeeding interfere the life she wanted to have with her child. This meant that she occasionally had to be modest with a receiving blanket over her breasts and her baby's head. There were times when she kind of resented that she couldn't JUST feed her infant without people freaking out about it. So, as a clever and creative person, she crocheted a newborn beanie hat with the body of the hat in a flesh color and the crown in pink with a nipple at the top. I saw it posted on Facebook and thought that it was one of the best-made statements EVER!!!!!

I have several friends who have pregnant friends, and they asked me if I would make similar hats for them. I made the blanket statement that I absolutely would not make the hats at all until I was able to find the person who designed the beanie and got permission to use her pattern. Now, mind you, I'm not a fan of crochet. In fact, I HATE to crochet, although I can do it. The hat is a crocheted hat. But still, I sent her an email and asked her if I could convert her hat design into a knit design and sell it. She was so very generous and said that she was absolutely tickled that I wanted to make her hat, convert it into my own craft, and sell it!!!!! And then I asked her what she would need from me in royalties or credit. All she asked is that I use my own photos for advertising. I told her that I would also put on my labels that she was the designer of the pattern.

In another time in my life, I owned my own company, and wanted to use a piece of artwork that was on a plaque that I had bought at an art fair ten years earlier. I found the artist and asked her if she would give me permission to use her artwork as the logo for my company. She asked me to put her name and the year of the copyright (which was 1997) on the image wherever I used it. It was no big thing for me to embed the phrase, "All Connected, used with permission and gratitude" in the file that I attached to my documentation.

If you have doubts, just ask. It's so simple. And there doesn't have to be contention. The "get a tutor" statement was an unfortunate comment, as was the "adjust your prozac" comment. We are all better than that.

In the words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"


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## -knitter (Aug 22, 2011)

[
I love this site. If this continues, I am gone.[/quote]

Me, too.


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## mirl56 (Dec 20, 2011)

JeanneE said:


> Oh my, I am taking a very deep breath here and wondering if I can even lend my neighbor a baby blanket pattern that she wants to do for her first grandbaby.
> Didn't know that my question was going to open a can or worms.
> Likewise am giving second thoughts to giving the pattern of the bag I made for my sister so she can make one for her daughter, my neice.
> Was so enjoying this forum and after some thought have decided that this discussion is a good thing and I can learn so much. Thanks for all of the input.


Of course you can lend (or trade/sell) your patterns to your neighbor or sister or anyone. Just don't make a copy to pass on and keep the original.


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## Aud36 (Aug 20, 2011)

So if I scan and copy a pattern and give it to my neighbour. Which one of you know-alls is gonna report me and turn me into a criminal. 
I've been through this argument before I got so scared about it I bought a pattern posted it to the US because a KP member said she couldn't afford to buy the pattern I was happy to bear the cost of £15 to help a fellow knitter. Then the cheeky cow asked me to buy her the wool "AS A FAVOUR" I haven't heard a word from her since I refused. So complying with copyright laws cost money and the feeling that I had the p**s taken out of me . If I want to copy a pattern and give it away I WILL.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

For anyone who has any question about copyrights as it pertains to knitting patterns, just go down to a law office and ask a lawyer. 
Also do yourselves a favour and read what the Knitting Paradise Administrator has posted about the Rules and Regulations as governing all aspects of postings and conversations placed here in the forums. It is quite obvious that old members and new members have not done so.
Here is the link to these Rules and Regulations.
http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-1-1.html

At the risk of offending anyone (and this is not my intention) will everyone involved, please act like responsible citizens of planet earth and not behave as barnyard animals. I also know that there are members who this statement does not apply to because you are responsible citizens in which case, disregard the last statement I made.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

This is always a contentious issue. I am shocked to hear the lack of respect regarding copyright.

Copyright laws were crafted for a variety of very valid reasons. Most laws are, for that matter.

Aud, it wasn't copyright law that cost you money, it was someone who took advantage of your generosity.

Copyright is a civil matter, not a criminal matter. It's near and dear to the hearts of those who use their talents to create a wide variety of things we find pleasurable: books, screenplays, songs, music, magazines, knitting patterns, photography and much more.

It takes so little to respect these laws, I just don't understand why people cannot do that.


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

I agree with you Barbara, you are simply asking for clarification. After reading all the posts here it appears to me that you are not the argumentative one. However, I would not take anyone's word here on KP about copy right law. I would educate myself through the "powers that be".


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

mtalmage said:


> So-o-o sorry I opened this thread. I should have known better.
> 
> I found someone asking a legitimate question about copyrights. Then some folks offering information on the subject. THEN, follows more questions by more folks trying to understand copyrights and offering hypothetical examples (i.e the recipe questions) as comparison questions. I read these questions as folks truly trying to understand the differences in how copyrights apply in varying circumstances.
> 
> ...


I ditto that mtalmage


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## craftymatt2 (Sep 15, 2011)

BarbaraSD said:


> Again I ask. What is the difference between sharing a pattern and sharing a recipe? We all share recipes. In fact, we do it quite often here on KP.


I'm like u I don't see the difference, what if a person finds the pattern at a garage sale or estate sale?? and gives it away, or sells, i would take it, I think people get too carried away by this, is the copy right police watching each and every move we make, i would think the murderers, rapist and drug people should take precendant over this.


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## craftymatt2 (Sep 15, 2011)

Aud36 said:


> So if I scan and copy a pattern and give it to my neighbour. Which one of you know-alls is gonna report me and turn me into a criminal.
> I've been through this argument before I got so scared about it I bought a pattern posted it to the US because a KP member said she couldn't afford to buy the pattern I was happy to bear the cost of £15 to help a fellow knitter. Then the cheeky cow asked me to buy her the wool "AS A FAVOUR" I haven't heard a word from her since I refused. So complying with copyright laws cost money and the feeling that I had the p**s taken out of me . If I want to copy a pattern and give it away I WILL.


Me too, good for you, and i won't report u


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## craftymatt2 (Sep 15, 2011)

courier770 said:


> You may prefer to talk about knitting but his IS a knitting related topic..more importantly it's a topic that affects the income of knitting pattern designers.
> 
> It seems to never be a "polite" topic, as you have seen...hence the rude and uncalled for comments about medication.
> 
> ...


And you know what, you are very rude for talking to someone that way, and its none of your business what she does.


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## craftymatt2 (Sep 15, 2011)

courier770 said:


> This is always a contentious issue. I am shocked to hear the lack of respect regarding copyright.
> 
> Copyright laws were crafted for a variety of very valid reasons. Most laws are, for that matter.
> 
> ...


And you're one of the individuals who make it that way, if you don't have something nice to say, don't SPEAK.


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## craftymatt2 (Sep 15, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Barbara, I'm sorry that you do not seem to respect that people actually make their living doing these things..go ahead, share all you want...just make darn sure you don't share MY copyrighted patterns or I'll be more than happy to haul your behind into court. I've done it before and I'll be more than happy to do it again to anyone who dares to "steal" from me. Kindly read up on copyright law! Get a tutor if you need to, clearly you do not understand the law. You can obtain copies in braille, you can even request a translator, in case you do not understand the English language.
> 
> Ignorance of the law is never accepted as an excuse by the courts.
> 
> ...


blah blah blah!!!!


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## craftymatt2 (Sep 15, 2011)

courier770 said:


> BarbaraSD, I have patterns on the market when someone duplicates one of my patterns and "shares" it with a friend they are denying me a sale. People make their living designing patterns, selling books, writing songs, composing music, etc.. They should be paid for their work. The taking of the "intellectual property" of another and giving it away takes money out of the pocket of the copyright holder. Please read up on copyright law, I realize it's a complex issue but not all that difficult to understand.


there you go again, blah blah blah


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## craftymatt2 (Sep 15, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Sending it in an email means you have "duplicated" the information and distributed it. You may well be an attorney but you obviously do not understand copyright law. I can buy a book of knitting patterns and LEND that book to someone, what I may NOT do, under current copyright law, is to "duplicate and distribute" any of the patterns it contains (in any format or genre) without the permission of the copyright holder.
> 
> I was the victim of copyright infringement some years ago and brought the matter into our civil courts, where I was awarded damages, including punitive damages and legal representation costs. It would have been cheaper for the "thief" to pay me up front for my intellectual property than to have stolen it from me.


You keep saying intellectual like u know it all, now u are going to tell a lawyer you know more than him, hahaha


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## craftymatt2 (Sep 15, 2011)

yukonjack46 said:


> As long as you share individually thru emails you are not breaking copyright laws. It's when you post openly on websites. sharing thru email is like lending the book.


Thank you soooo much, this makes more sense, than what courier is mouthing off about.


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## craftymatt2 (Sep 15, 2011)

galaxycraft said:


> yukonjack46 said:
> 
> 
> > As long as you share individually thru emails you are not breaking copyright laws. It's when you post openly on websites. sharing thru email is like lending the book.
> ...


Oh know, not another one like courier, blah blah blah, you need to read up on what you r talking about before you make yourself look like a fool. And don't talk about something you know nothing about.


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## RavinRed (Apr 18, 2011)

Why not just loan the pattern out - if it is in a book send the book or if it is a pamphlet send that. If you want it back why not send a self addressed stamped envelope with it so that the person can return the item when they are done. There is no problem with loaning out a book or magazine....the library does it everyday.


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## craftymatt2 (Sep 15, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> BarbaraSD said:
> 
> 
> > courier770 said:
> ...


Well if this isn't the pot calling the kettle black, you need to mind you'r own business also, you think u know it all, and your as dumb as a peacock. You have no respect for people and to keep telling them off someone needs to shut you down, were you their when he went to law school i think not, you are way to old.


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## craftymatt2 (Sep 15, 2011)

BarbaraSD said:


> Now, now. don't get your panties in a bunch. Your vitriol attitude can't be healthy. Maybe you need to get your Prozac renewed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Barb

Don't let this witch get to you or any of the others, they must be off their meds.


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## craftymatt2 (Sep 15, 2011)

mtalmage said:


> So-o-o sorry I opened this thread. I should have known better.
> 
> I found someone asking a legitimate question about copyrights. Then some folks offering information on the subject. THEN, follows more questions by more folks trying to understand copyrights and offering hypothetical examples (i.e the recipe questions) as comparison questions. I read these questions as folks truly trying to understand the differences in how copyrights apply in varying circumstances.
> 
> ...


Well said


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## craftymatt2 (Sep 15, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> BarbaraSD said:
> 
> 
> > courier770 said:
> ...


Sew biz, you need to mind youre own biz, go back to your swamp and be quiet for a change, you are not very bright


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

You know it's a rainy Saturday in Texas and I am so entertained by this thread. It's better than Downton Abbey or anything else on TV! Keep it up Kp'ers!


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

*craftymatt2 you need to mind youre own biz, go back to your swamp and be quiet for a change, you are not very bright*

You are the one who is being ignorant here. You are the one who is trying to spout off your ignorance of the law. You are the one who is being rude now.

The ones you have been bashing are knowledgeable because it is their business to know what the copyright laws are. You are just spouting off what you think. They are the ones who are actually stating what the law says. You are not. Yes, I know that you are going to come back and also bash me for telling you the truth about yourself. If you can not handle the matter, then stop watching and commenting on this topic. It is the likes of you that people walk away from and do not want to associate with in their lives. Shame on you for being such a childish person. You are a swell example for your children and grandchildren. You need to have your own mind and mouth washed out with antiseptic.


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## craftymatt2 (Sep 15, 2011)

5mmdpns said:


> *craftymatt2 you need to mind youre own biz, go back to your swamp and be quiet for a change, you are not very bright*
> 
> You are the one who is being ignorant here. You are the one who is trying to spout off your ignorance of the law. You are the one who is being rude now.
> 
> The ones you have been bashing are knowledgeable because it is their business to know what the copyright laws are. You are just spouting off what you think. They are the ones who are actually stating what the law says. You are not. Yes, I know that you are going to come back and also bash me for telling you the truth about yourself. If you can not handle the matter, then stop watching and commenting on this topic. It is the likes of you that people walk away from and do not want to associate with in their lives. Shame on you for being such a childish person. You are a swell example for your children and grandchildren. You need to have your own mind and mouth washed out with antiseptic.


You'r the childish one, mind your own business, i know my business, they are rude people and so r u.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

craftymatt2 said:


> 5mmdpns said:
> 
> 
> > *craftymatt2 you need to mind youre own biz, go back to your swamp and be quiet for a change, you are not very bright*
> ...


The Knitting Paradise forum is for all members and as such it is also all our business. You do not own the forum although by your posts you seem to think you do. Is this the best that you can do? to act and behave very childlike? for shame that your children see fit to actually have you look after their children.


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## RavinRed (Apr 18, 2011)

It is such a shame that an innocent question from a newbie would cause adults to act so child-like. The bullying and the bashing of fellow KP members is absolutely uncalled for and those of you that have been arguing back and forth and MUST WIN your point are nothing more than LOSERS!


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

Well I remember when I first joined. I got ripped really good in the beginning for asking a question. I wasn't familiar with how KP worked and replied where I shouldn't have. They thought I was a virus and were ready to report me to administration. Oh my, my blood ran cold, the reaction was so that while sitting in my own living room I was afraid the KP police were coming to arrest me. I was shocked but made may apologies and stayed on. I was also demoralized with the "acrylic thread". I just let it roll off my back cause at 63 years old I have had many quick lessons in "people". Happy Knitting/Crocheting folks. and let's all agree to disagree!


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

RavinRed said:


> Why not just loan the pattern out - if it is in a book send the book or if it is a pamphlet send that. If you want it back why not send a self addressed stamped envelope with it so that the person can return the item when they are done. There is no problem with loaning out a book or magazine....the library does it everyday.


That is precisely the way to do it. Copyright is about the right to make a copy of something, moving a physical entity around between people is perfectly within the rules. When you buy a book, you are buying a physical thing, you can give it away or sell it to somebody else, even cut it up if you want. The thing you can't do is photocopy it and sell copies or distribute copies, that would be to effectively republish it and so infringe the rights of the copyright holder.

Works published on the internet work in roughly the same way. You can download and print a copy, singular, for your own personal use. You can't, without permission, run off a dozen prints and redistribute them, or reformat the original post by creating a new file and start sending it out as emails or posting it on another website without the originator's permission.

It's quite an easy concept, if you create an original work, you automatically have the right to control how and in what format it is used and distributed. That, in essence, is all copyright is.

I personally have a thoroughly gloomy view of human nature, experience has given me this. I realise people have zero regard for the rights of others, I also accept that once you create a digital version of anything, it's gone forever, you'll never get control of it again. My pragmatic advice, for what it's worth, is never post anything you value on the internet; the instant it's 'out there'; your chances of controlling it are nil.

Dave


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

Right on Dave! Well Said!


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## Connie W (Aug 3, 2011)

Thank you for clarifying about lending books, Dave. My daughter and I buy and share books all the time and I was afraid we were doing something wrong because I read it someplace. Also, I have always wondered how libraries fitted into this.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

Remember, Everyone: The word is Copy Right. And the question is: Do you have the Right to Copy the pattern? If you don't own the copyright, then the answer is: NO. And I don't care how many books you buy. The book you can resell. That's what retailers do. You cannot copy and resell it. You cannot copy and give away the copy. I know of one designer who does not allow even working copies.

Oh, and craftymatt2, if you feel the need to comment, go ahead. Everyone now knows your IQ: 50.


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## JeanneE (Jan 13, 2012)

The pattern that I posted, Shell Motif Afghan was done from a pattern in Family Circle in June of 1991. Many people have requested this but after many searches in the archives, etc. the pattern is no where to be found except in my knitting file. How can the pattern be shared? I am going to call the magazine on Monday and find out if they could reprint it in a future issue. What do you think?


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

JeanneE said:


> The pattern that I posted, Shell Motif Afghan was done from a pattern in Family Circle in June of 1991. Many people have requested this but after many searches in the archives, etc. the pattern is no where to be found except in my knitting file. How can the pattern be shared? I am going to call the magazine on Monday and find out if they could reprint it in a future issue. What do you think?


Capital idea. That's the proactive, positive approach! Go for it!


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

craftymatt2 said:


> yukonjack46 said:
> 
> 
> > As long as you share individually thru emails you are not breaking copyright laws. It's when you post openly on websites. sharing thru email is like lending the book.
> ...


... except that it's incorrect. There's _that_... :roll:


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

Connie W said:


> Thank you for clarifying about lending books, Dave. My daughter and I buy and share books all the time and I was afraid we were doing something wrong because I read it someplace. Also, I have always wondered how libraries fitted into this.


That's exactly how it works, lending libraries pay an agreed fee for 'lending rights' because they do it on such a large scale, similar to the 'broadcast rights' paid by radio and television companies. If you think of it as a physical block of wood, it works pretty much the same way; after you've finished with it as a door-stop, you pass it on to somebody else to stop their table wobbling!

Dave


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

JeanneE said:


> The pattern that I posted, Shell Motif Afghan was done from a pattern in Family Circle in June of 1991. Many people have requested this but after many searches in the archives, etc. the pattern is no where to be found except in my knitting file. How can the pattern be shared? I am going to call the magazine on Monday and find out if they could reprint it in a future issue. What do you think?


People can watch ebay for it, if they really want it that badly. But honestly, most people are just fishing for freebies here. They aren't nearly as "in love" with your pattern as they want you to think. The sob stories come out, to get you to jump through their hoops.

You are a very gracious and kind person, tho. I would let the interested parties go to the trouble of asking the magazine for a reprint... which they probably won't bother to do.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

StitchDesigner said:


> JeanneE said:
> 
> 
> > The pattern that I posted, Shell Motif Afghan was done from a pattern in Family Circle in June of 1991. Many people have requested this but after many searches in the archives, etc. the pattern is no where to be found except in my knitting file. How can the pattern be shared? I am going to call the magazine on Monday and find out if they could reprint it in a future issue. What do you think?
> ...


You could also do a search if you know who the designer of the afghan was. Is his/her name given in the article? If so you could do a web search for him/her and ask directly where you would go about getting this pattern.


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

5mmdpns said:


> You could also do a search if you know who the designer of the afghan was. Is his/her name given in the article? If so you could do a web search for him/her and ask directly where you would go about getting this pattern.


Another good idea... But all of that is WORK, and should be done by the interested parties who are looking for the pattern. Jeanne shouldn't have to do any more legwork on it, once she has given the source. :-D


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## craftymatt2 (Sep 15, 2011)

StitchDesigner said:


> Remember, Everyone: The word is Copy Right. And the question is: Do you have the Right to Copy the pattern? If you don't own the copyright, then the answer is: NO. And I don't care how many books you buy. The book you can resell. That's what retailers do. You cannot copy and resell it. You cannot copy and give away the copy. I know of one designer who does not allow even working copies.
> 
> Oh, and craftymatt2, if you feel the need to comment, go ahead. Everyone now knows your IQ: 50.


I will, isn't it funny that YOU make a nasty comment, or someone else, its ok, but when someone else does or sticks up for someone, its wrong and they have an iq of 50, you need to take a good look in a mirror, you must have NO iq, i hate bullies and people that think they can manipulate others because they have a better and much wiser opinion, especially when they are WRONG.


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## craftymatt2 (Sep 15, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> craftymatt2 said:
> 
> 
> > yukonjack46 said:
> ...


You think you're so smart, all you're doing is blowing a lot of hot air.


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

craftymatt2 said:
 

> Sewbizgirl said:
> 
> 
> > craftymatt2 said:
> ...


Most copyrights say the material cannot be copied or distributed _electronically_, which is email. Even if it is not in the copyright statement on a document, it is part of copyright protection. And everything we do with our computers (email, scans, copies) can be traced. This is why the FBI confiscates computers when people are arrested for internet crimes. It holds the evidence.

I know the truth is confusing, but the activity of making copies of your patterns and mailing them out to others, or emailing them via scans, is illegal.

People are trying to tell you the truth about the law, and you only come back with personal slurs... But I will still put the information forth, in hopes that someone else who might need to know, is also reading...


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## wetfeet2 (Sep 14, 2011)

If you find a pattern or book at a garage/estate/etc. sale, it was already purchased in its original form by the person selling it. Once the original owner sells the book it becomes the property of the new purchaser. The original purchaser no longer has the book or pattern. So there is no extra photocopy or other duplication. Still just one book or pattern. Same thing for used book stores.
Kristine
[/quote]

I'm like u I don't see the difference, what if a person finds the pattern at a garage sale or estate sale?? and gives it away, or sells, i would take it, I think people get too carried away by this, is the copy right police watching each and every move we make, i would think the murderers, rapist and drug people should take precendant over this.[/quote]


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## UndinesSeamstress (Dec 21, 2011)

How does one go about leaving KP altogether? I have a fairly serious mental illness, and the stress of this thread has me headed back to a psychiatric hospital--for the third time since November. I just can't do this.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

JeanneE said:


> The pattern that I posted, Shell Motif Afghan was done from a pattern in Family Circle in June of 1991. Many people have requested this but after many searches in the archives, etc. the pattern is no where to be found except in my knitting file. How can the pattern be shared? I am going to call the magazine on Monday and find out if they could reprint it in a future issue. What do you think?


That's an excellent idea. Many magazines respond to reader feedback and reprint their 'classic' patterns.

Dave


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

UndinesSeamstress said:


> How does one go about leaving KP altogether? I have a fairly serious mental illness, and the stress of this thread has me headed back to a psychiatric hospital--for the third time since November. I just can't do this.


You serious? 
All you have to do to leave KP is just not log in anymore.
And for this thread being too stressful...just quit reading it. :wink: 
But you are more than welcome to stick around KP and enjoy the other aspects of this site; as well as the other more enjoyable posts.


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## craftymatt2 (Sep 15, 2011)

Sewbizgirl said:


> JeanneE said:
> 
> 
> > The pattern that I posted, Shell Motif Afghan was done from a pattern in Family Circle in June of 1991. Many people have requested this but after many searches in the archives, etc. the pattern is no where to be found except in my knitting file. How can the pattern be shared? I am going to call the magazine on Monday and find out if they could reprint it in a future issue. What do you think?
> ...


Thats why she is a gracious and kind person and sewbiz, you are not.


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## craftymatt2 (Sep 15, 2011)

galaxycraft said:


> UndinesSeamstress said:
> 
> 
> > How does one go about leaving KP altogether? I have a fairly serious mental illness, and the stress of this thread has me headed back to a psychiatric hospital--for the third time since November. I just can't do this.
> ...


How rude of you galaxy, to say that to someone. Have you no respect for people.Maybe you ought to shoot yourself into your galaxy.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Copyright issues are civil law not criminal..but that's beside the point.

Many designers (myself included) do regular internet searches for their patterns. The results will often yield blogs where people have posted the completed item and discussion boards where the pattern has been discussed. If a designer sees that one of their creations is being "shared" and that copyright infringement has taken place, they have every right in the world to seek redress. Designers have even been known to ask someone for a copy of their own pattern just to see what kind of answer they will get.

There is a push from the artistic community, for the US to strengthen enforcement of copyright law. It can't come fast enough.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I didn't see anything that Galaxy said as being the least bit rude.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

courier770 said:


> I didn't see anything that Galaxy said as being the least bit rude.


I agree. A direct question was asked and answered.


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## Maya'sOma (Sep 3, 2011)

I just cannot believe what I'm reading in this thread...


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Maya'sOma said:


> I just cannot believe what I'm reading in this thread...


I can't either... :roll: 
But the chuckles have me coming back....
I have a tendency to see the lighter side of life at times....
and this is one of them. :XD: 
Some people's responses... :roll: :roll:

This is a very serious topic, and some just want to stir the pot and turn the flames up on high.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Copyright issues are civil law not criminal..but that's beside the point.
> 
> Many designers (myself included) do regular internet searches for their patterns. The results will often yield blogs where people have posted the completed item and discussion boards where the pattern has been discussed. If a designer sees that one of their creations is being "shared" and that copyright infringement has taken place, they have every right in the world to seek redress. Designers have even been known to ask someone for a copy of their own pattern just to see what kind of answer they will get.
> 
> There is a push from the artistic community, for the US to strengthen enforcement of copyright law. It can't come fast enough.


I've even found the little motif charts and patterns I've posted here for sale on ebay, trying to get them to remove an item's listing is a job and a half too! It's so frustrating, I sometimes don't know whether to be disappointed or laugh at it with my whimsies, I give them away anyway; but it's a serious matter for those whose livelihood depends on their creative talents.

It's not just in the USA that the laws need strengthening, technology has moved on so fast, there needs to be an overhaul of the system. I recently saw a television interview on the subject of book publishing, where a pirate who re-distributed books on the internet blamed the writers and established publishers, his advice was that creatives "need to change their business model". Creatives really are up against it with attitudes like that around!

Dave


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

UndinesSeamstress said:



> How does one go about leaving KP altogether? I have a fairly serious mental illness, and the stress of this thread has me headed back to a psychiatric hospital--for the third time since November. I just can't do this.


For heaven's sake... stop reading this thread if it's causing you that kind of stress! There are plenty of fun, happy places here. Go have some lighthearted fun...

And don't open any more copyright topics! This is always a very touchy issue and you see how fast people go totally off the rails with it...

Take care of yourself. :-D


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## Niki-knitter (Jan 28, 2011)

Unfortunately I already posted a pattern from an extinct magizine from 1979, I did not realize that the sweater was probably under Copt
Right. Do ou know hoe
W to clear it off the ""picture" section on knitting Paridise?
Joan


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

joanaikens said:


> Unfortunately I already posted a pattern from an extinct magizine from 1979, I did not realize that the sweater was probably under Copt
> Right. Do ou know hoe
> W to clear it off the ""picture" section on knitting Paridise?
> Joan


If you send message to PM admin, they should be able to help with that.

Dave


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Dave,
I'm so sorry to read that your adorable little whimsies have landed on ebay!

You are right, it's not just US copyright that needs strengthening. 

The electronic world has brought some real problems with it, hasn't it? 

It's such a shame that our most creative people are being ripped off and told they don't have the right to own their intellectual property. It's a sad state of affairs when people will put a "hobby" above the livelihoods of others - especially in these turbulent economic times.

I'm not going to say when this happened. I posted a finished item, quoted the source of the pattern and got a private message from someone asking me if I could scan the pattern and email it to them. I responded that I could not because the pattern was copyrighted. A few days later I got a message back saying "Good girl, I'm the designer, thank you!". 

Apparently she found her pattern being emailed around on another group, put a stop to it and wanted to make sure it wasn't happening here. My honesty was rewarded, she asked for my address and mailed me a manila envelope with 8 of her patterns in it!

Honesty is always the very best policy.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Dave,
> I'm so sorry to read that your adorable little whimsies have landed on ebay!
> 
> You are right, it's not just US copyright that needs strengthening.
> ...


Good girl indeed!
Just goes to show...you never know who is on the other end.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Dave,
> I'm so sorry to read that your adorable little whimsies have landed on ebay!
> 
> You are right, it's not just US copyright that needs strengthening.
> ...


You also get a better night's sleep when you're honest!

Only one company has my permission to sell my designs on ebay or anywhere else they like, theirs are specially designed and properly marked with logos. As with most other designers, I let local charities sell my designs, the local hospice and a couple of churches do so to raise funds with my permission. Unfortunately, the world is full of chancers who are just plain greedy, they're a pest!

Dave


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

galaxy, most designers keep a thumb on the "chatter" going on. I can't say as I blame them. I search for my own patterns to see.

You never know if the person contacting you is a designer..or perhaps an attorney representing a designer/author. I couldn't take food off someone else's table anyway.

The majority of people who lost their jobs during the worst of the recession went into business for themselves. No doubt there is a number of knitting designers among the millions who lost jobs.


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## Niki-knitter (Jan 28, 2011)

I posted an old 1979 pattern from a debunked Mon Tricot magizine....I would like to remove it from view... Do you know how to contact admin? I can't see anwpywhere to delete your own posts or even edit them. I was trying to respond to a request for a pattern....could not figure out how to post a pattern or photo to a private message. Do not wish to infringe on anyone's copyright rights?
Joan aikens


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

joanaikens said:


> I posted an old 1979 pattern from a debunked Mon Tricot magizine....I would like to remove it from view... Do you know how to contact admin? I can't see anwpywhere to delete your own posts or even edit them. I was trying to respond to a request for a pattern....could not figure out how to post a pattern or photo to a private message. Do not wish to infringe on anyone's copyright rights?
> Joan aikens


Click on <Help> at the top of the pge, then click on Admin you will then be able to click on the link to send a message.

Hope that helps
Dave


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

joanaikens said:


> I posted an old 1979 pattern from a debunked Mon Tricot magizine....I would like to remove it from view... Do you know how to contact admin? I can't see anwpywhere to delete your own posts or even edit them. I was trying to respond to a request for a pattern....could not figure out how to post a pattern or photo to a private message. Do not wish to infringe on anyone's copyright rights?
> Joan aikens


Joan, please follow the directions on this page.
http://www.knittingparadise.com/contact_us.jsp

This can also be found by clicking on the words "Contact us" found at the bottom of the page in the center.


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## Linday (Jan 22, 2012)

http://knitty.com/ISSUEfall03/FEATcopyright.html

This is a rather interesting article on copyright law, at least for Commonwealth countries. It may answer some questions. As well it has links to copyright laws for many of our countries.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

Linday said:


> http://knitty.com/ISSUEfall03/FEATcopyright.html
> 
> This is a rather interesting article on copyright law, at least for Commonwealth countries. It may answer some questions. As well it has links to copyright laws for many of our countries.


Also just to let everyone know, this article was written by an intellectual copyright lawyer.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

Linday said:


> http://knitty.com/ISSUEfall03/FEATcopyright.html
> 
> This is a rather interesting article on copyright law, at least for Commonwealth countries. It may answer some questions. As well it has links to copyright laws for many of our countries.


Good clear article, thanks for posting, I'm sure a lot of people will find it helpful.

Dave


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## BarbaraSD (Mar 10, 2011)

And how sad so many wonderful patterns are lost because people are afraid to make copies of them for fear the copyright police will come break down their door. Oops. Broke my own promise of staying out of this insane discussion. It has gone beyond ad nauseum.


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## RavinRed (Apr 18, 2011)

joanaikens said:


> Unfortunately I already posted a pattern from an extinct magizine from 1979, I did not realize that the sweater was probably under Copt
> Right. Do ou know hoe
> W to clear it off the ""picture" section on knitting Paridise?
> Joan


Can someone tell us what the statute of limitations for a copyright is....I believe it is 25 years. If it has not been renewed, after 25 years the copyright expires.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

RavinRed said:


> joanaikens said:
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately I already posted a pattern from an extinct magizine from 1979, I did not realize that the sweater was probably under Copt
> ...


http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-duration.html


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Posting the article is great and I sincerely hope people read it, understand it and abide by copyright law. Sadly there's that whole thing about leading horses to water but not being able to make them drink.

Maybe a few people out there will read it and mend their ways.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

BarbaraSD said:


> And how sad so many wonderful patterns are lost because people are afraid to make copies of them for fear the copyright police will come break down their door. Oops. Broke my own promise of staying out of this insane discussion. It has gone beyond ad nauseum.


Gives something for future generations to dig up and play with.

Dave


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

I never heard of anything being "lost" due to copyright. Copyright actually protects the intellectual property from being lost.

In the US, copyright extends for many years after the death of the copyright holder, and in essence becomes part of their "estate". As the copyrighted material earns money it too becomes part of the estate. Those funds can be used to help educate the copyright holders grandchildren. Now it would be a real shame if that was "lost".


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Copyright doesn't have a "statue of limitations"..those only apply to criminal law and copyright is civil law. Copyright is not actually "renewed" as, say a license. It extends for a period beyond the life of the holder (right now, without looking it up I believe it is 70 years...don't quote me on that I'd really have to pull up my file on it).

Material that was copyrighted before our current copyright laws (in the 1970's) is not covered by current law...UNLESS the holder established new copyright.

In other words, you aren't going to live long enough to wait for a copyright to expire, in most cases.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

galaxycraft said:


> RavinRed said:
> 
> 
> > joanaikens said:
> ...


This is for the US

Should also add that the words in red are downloadable to read, pertaining to the renewal and duration of copyrights.
These should also be read and understood.

One states in part....(circ15)
Public Law 102-307, enacted on June 26, 1992, amended the copyright law to make renewal automatic....

In part...(circ15)
Public Law 105-298, enacted on October 27, 1998, amended the copyright law to add 20 years to the copyright term.

Another in part...(circ15a)
Works Created on or after January 1, 1978
The law automatically protects a work that is created and fixed in a tangible medium of expression on or after January 1, 1978, from the moment of its creation and gives it a term lasting for the authors life plus an additional 70 years.


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## RavinRed (Apr 18, 2011)

thank you


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

So, basically, unless Mary Todd Lincoln saw it in print, it ain't in Public Domain! :mrgreen:


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Thanks for confirming Galaxy, I was pretty sure it was 70 years beyond the life of the holder. 

LOL StichDesigner, that's about right!

This just goes to show how serious the issue of copyright is. Copyright extends 70 years beyond the life of the holder...look at how long a "patent" lasts!!

FYI, as a former resident of Illinois..don't talk too loudly about Mary Todd. There are still some people who are "touchy" about her!


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

RavinRed said:


> joanaikens said:
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately I already posted a pattern from an extinct magizine from 1979, I did not realize that the sweater was probably under Copt
> ...


The article here http://knitty.com/ISSUEfall03/FEATcopyright.html
tells you what the copyright limitations are for the knitted patterns. In most countries it is 50 years after the author has died. Add another 40 years to this for the USA.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

Was just using her as a time reference. She got dealt a real bad hand.


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

StitchDesigner said:


> Was just using her as a time reference. She got dealt a real bad hand.


Of course you were just using her as a time reference. Therefore why should you be careful just mentioning her name? Oh my gosh!!!!!!!!!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

SD no kidding..but I did get your point..however material that was copyrighted before our current copyright law went into effect in the late 70's is most generally "public domain" unless new copyright was established.

Though who of us is really interested in patterns from the late 70's? I'm trying hard to forget what I wore those days!

gypsie, read up on Mrs. Lincoln some time, sort of interesting.


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

courier770 said:


> SD no kidding..but I did get your point..however material that was copyrighted before our current copyright law went into effect in the late 70's is most generally "public domain" unless new copyright was established.
> 
> Though who of us is really interested in patterns from the late 70's? I'm trying hard to forget what I wore those days!
> 
> gypsie, read up on Mrs. Lincoln some time, sort of interesting.


Well, I did as you said and read about Mary's life. But forgive me any ignorance here, I don't see how using her in reference to a timeline could be of any insult to her. Am I missing something here?


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

No I was joking, it's not an insult...I guess you'd have to be from Illinois to understand. Mary Todd's name is spoken there in whispers and NOT very often! Tragic story actually.

The state of Illinois has been rife with political scandal for many years now...as the previous Governor gets ready to report to prison to serve 14 years after being convicted on 18 federal counts. So people there are sort of "touchy" on the subject of scandal.


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## StitchDesigner (Jan 24, 2011)

Yes, MTL loved Abe more than anything, except possibly her children. A very tragic story. I am a lover of Civil War history. I know her story well and I do understand.


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

Yes it's a sad story as are many stories of the civil war!


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## gypsie (May 28, 2011)

courier770 said:


> No I was joking, it's not an insult...I guess you'd have to be from Illinois to understand. Mary Todd's name is spoken there in whispers and NOT very often! Tragic story actually.
> 
> The state of Illinois has been rife with political scandal for many years now...as the previous Governor gets ready to report to prison to serve 14 years after being convicted on 18 federal counts. So people there are sort of "touchy" on the subject of scandal.


Glad to know you are just joking. I was beginning to wonder after all the insults flying back and forth today. I'm glad someone has kept their sense of humor. KP really got heated.


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## mtalmage (Apr 5, 2011)

:lol:


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

I'll have a large slice please


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

BarbaraSD said:


> And how sad so many wonderful patterns are lost because people are afraid to make copies of them for fear the copyright police will come break down their door.


This is a funny arguement. Would you sit around grieving the loss of things you never knew existed? And how are they lost? The owner has the original, and can make their own working copies as needed from that. They just can't distribute them.

If you felt so strongly about it you could always pursue buying a design from the copyright holder, and then you would hold the copyright and have the right to publish.

One design I sold to Lion Brand Yarn was later resold to Better House and Gardens and published in one of their magazines, and then a book. I had nothing to do with the second sale, as I had sold my rights. But no one stole my design, from me or from Lion Brand. It was legally purchased.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

sewbizgirl, what an excellent suggestion!


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## jemima (Mar 26, 2011)

Courier770 ,It would be a good idea if you would kindly let us know What your company`s namen is.Just in case we purchase one of your patterns.Then we could really think carefully before a purchase is made.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Since I only sell out of shops (none of which are in the UK) you don't have to worry about it. You could avoid the whole issue by only using public domain patterns.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Since I only sell out of shops (none of which are in the UK) you don't have to worry about it. You could avoid the whole issue by only using public domain patterns.


Courier, it appears to me that now some knitters will be snobby and not purchase copyright patterns because they want to distribute the patterns illegally. *sigh* some people thought they were behaving very well until they realized the law says otherwise. People need to get a hold of integrity and keep it. I will still purchase knitting books and patterns. I know that others make their living through this and besides, even if I dont knit up all the patterns, I love to read them!  BTW, have a great day Courier!!!


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Since I only sell out of shops (none of which are in the UK) you don't have to worry about it. You could avoid the whole issue by only using public domain patterns.


A pity, I've seen some of your photographs and your work is lovely.

Dave


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Thanks 5mm. You probably are correct. My little knitting library of books and patterns spans many generations and years. Patterns that my mother purchased when I was a child are in there, in addition to the many books I've purchased and single patterns. Will I ever make everything, probably not.

I often lend books and patterns out with the warning if you make a copy or copies I will not lend again. A friend called me after borrowing a book, the graph in the book was too small for her to see. I told her she could enlarge it as a "working copy" and return it with the book or destroy it when she was done...she gave me back the book and the enlarged graph. She even placed the graph in a protective sleeve!

I'm not going to post the name that my patterns appear under, as that could result in people finding out my personal contact information (address/personal email). Don't want to find that someone evil has signed me up for subscriptions to every magazine on the face of the earth!


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Thanks Dave.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

My Mom has old old knitting pattern books and I love reading them and being amazed by some of these "new-to-me" patterns that I find in there! She had bought a knitting booklet that had a baby sweater, hat, booties. She knit this up for her first child when she was pregnant. My sister is now going to be 53 this summer. She will inheret the pattern booklet one day.


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## Connie W (Aug 3, 2011)

I have another question. My dtr just purchased 2 patterns on Ravelry. She wants me to knit them for her personal use. Is it illegal to forward them to me via internet? There is honestly no intent to defraud the designer. Otherwise I would buy them and she would reimburse me (she will also provide the yarn since I am now retired and have to pinch my pennies).


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

5mmdpns said:


> My Mom has old old knitting pattern books and I love reading them and being amazed by some of these "new-to-me" patterns that I find in there! She had bought a knitting booklet that had a baby sweater, hat, booties. She knit this up for her first child when she was pregnant. My sister is now going to be 53 this summer. She will inheret the pattern booklet one day.


I love looking through the old pattern books also.
Some are actually written in an "understandable" language. :wink: 
You learn alot about the basic construction of items.
A good learning tool (in my eyes any ways).

Glad there is interest enough to keep the books in the family. :thumbup:


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

Galaxy, my family is a firm believer in passing on heirlooms! (haha, what some heirlooms actually are, is another topic for another day!) I will inherit my Mom's knitting books except for this one. I am the only one in the family now that knits/crochets/cross stitches/sews/etc. I will also inherit her knitting machines and needles. Mom has knitting needles that her great grandmother used. I do wish that my sister and SILs did these things as well but they dont. Neither do any of my nieces. But the neices are young yet. If they do pick up some of these crafts, I will certainly pass along some of these books/patterns. 
I love the diagrams that they use to explain a lot of the stitchwork! It is so clear and easy to understand.


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## BarbaraSD (Mar 10, 2011)

Not if they are lost. I used to buy old pattern books at used book stores, but with Kindles and such those, too, are disappearing. And I for one will make a copy of a pattern a "friend" is interested in rather than loan the book and take the chance of it getting lost.



FireballDave said:


> BarbaraSD said:
> 
> 
> > And how sad so many wonderful patterns are lost because people are afraid to make copies of them for fear the copyright police will come break down their door. Oops. Broke my own promise of staying out of this insane discussion. It has gone beyond ad nauseum.
> ...


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Things that are lost are always found. :>) :>)



BarbaraSD said:


> Not if they are lost.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

*shakes head*


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

courier770 said:


> *shakes head*


LOL :-D :-D :-D :XD: :XD:


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.pdf

This section deals with the "damages" that can be awarded to a copyright holder who suffers infringement. Wow, that's a lot of money. Certainly not worth the few dollars a pattern would cost, as opposed to running a fowl of copyright!


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## bdejong (Jun 5, 2011)

Someone invented that pattern and then printed it up to sell. It is their property and they have a right to earn money for it. Probably no one is ever prosecuted for copying a pattern and giving it to a friend, but it does, in a way, deprive the author of what she might have earned had they bought a copy instead.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

bdejong, the problem is someone makes one copy..it's a violation, the person with the copy makes 4 copies...more violations, the people who got those 4 copies each make several more copies...see where this is going? The domino effect.

I'm sure none of us would care to have someone reach into our purse or wallet and take out a few dollars every day.

On line forums like this, have thousands of members so it wouldn't take long for the losses to mount.

It's still stealing and people who justify it with flimsy excuses are still thieves.

At the end of the day, the most valuable thing anyone has is their reputation. Mine is worth a lot more than the price of a pattern.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

courier770 said:


> bdejong, the problem is someone makes one copy..it's a violation, the person with the copy makes 4 copies...more violations, the people who got those 4 copies each make several more copies...see where this is going? The domino effect.
> 
> I'm sure none of us would care to have someone reach into our purse or wallet and take out a few dollars every day.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup:


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## Niki-knitter (Jan 28, 2011)

Just so you all know. ..I wrote to administration to "remove" the blouson sweater pattern I posted from mon tricot magizine 1978.... I didn't mean to infri Fe on anyone's right of ownership. I thought since the magizine is. O longer in print it would be ok! Not... I was informed!
Joan


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Joan, people make honest mistakes all the time. The year that pattern was published sort of puts it in that "gray area". Current copyright law was established around that time. Sometimes a new copyright has been established and sometimes not.

Sometimes it is difficult to know exactly if a pattern is covered by copyright or if it has fallen off the grid and into the realm of "public domain". 

You can always cite your source of a pattern without actually posting the pattern. If people are interested enough they will doggedly search to find it.

Thanks for the honesty, *thumbs up*.


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## Sewbizgirl (May 11, 2011)

Connie W said:


> I have another question. My dtr just purchased 2 patterns on Ravelry. She wants me to knit them for her personal use. Is it illegal to forward them to me via internet? There is honestly no intent to defraud the designer. Otherwise I would buy them and she would reimburse me (she will also provide the yarn since I am now retired and have to pinch my pennies).


If she bought them for you to use to knit clothing for her, I don't see a problem with her forwarding them to you via email.

If she is sharing copies so that you both have copies, then technically that is not legal. That is duplication and distribution.


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## UndinesSeamstress (Dec 21, 2011)

Connie W said:


> I have another question. My dtr just purchased 2 patterns on Ravelry. She wants me to knit them for her personal use. Is it illegal to forward them to me via internet? There is honestly no intent to defraud the designer. Otherwise I would buy them and she would reimburse me (she will also provide the yarn since I am now retired and have to pinch my pennies).


Connie, your situation is a very gray area of a law called the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) that governs online trade of intellectual property. TECHNICALLY forwarding the patterns to you would be a breach of copyright, BUT, there are (under DMCA) some loopholes.

I am NOT a lawyer, and I'm not a paralegal... I'm ONLY providing information that I learned in a graduate level class on DMCA when I was going to school to become a librarian.

So as not to provide you with information that could get either of us in trouble, I'm going to tell you that you have a couple of options, and I don't WANT to know which you use.

You may change the format of digital information so that you can use the information in more than one place. An example of this would be to transfer a music CD to a cassette tape so you could listen to the music in your car. You may not sell or give away any device onto which you transferred the information on the CD. This is called a "format shift" and is covered under the "Fair Use" section of DMCA. Therefore, if you were to make one print copy for your own personal use, and if it were to be mailed, you SHOULD be okay. Forwarding the pattern through email is probably not the best way to send it, BUT as long as the exchange is JUST between the two of you, and the pattern is NOT getting shared with any third party, then you are probably okay.

You may tape a program on a television to watch it at a later time if the airing time is not convenient for you. You may duplicate this information under the Time Shift allowance covered in the "Fair Use" section of DMCA.

And, you may make ONE ARCHIVAL copy of any digital information for your own private use. This too is covered under the "Fair Use" section of DMCA.

Many people use the Format Shift through printing a pattern that they purchase online. The Archival option is also a way to get around your concern as well.

Connie, please let me know if this helps?


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## bdejong (Jun 5, 2011)

Courier--Yes, that's what I said. It's stealing. I work at a university, and the whole issue of plagarism is taken very seriously. I give my students translations that I made for their songs--I teach singing--and I require them to cite me as a source in their bibliography. They can be expelled for plagarism, and we can get into serious trouble for using photocopies for our classes. They have to be handled in a certain way, and we have all kinds of links to the laws pertaining to this that we refer to. I said probably no one will be prosecuted for sharing in the manner discussed, and that is true too. It doesn't make it right, but it's true.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Plagiarism is different than copyright infringement by mass distribution (no matter how small or how large)without prior written consent of the designer/publisher.

Teachers can and do get prior written permission from an author/publisher to make copies for classroom use only; for teaching purposes.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

With copyright there isn't "prosecution", it's civil law not criminal law. It is up to the copyright holder to bring civil action against those who are infringing on their copyright. They can bring it against any one who does so, no matter how large or small the infringement is. It's their property and they do not have to tolerate it being stolen at all.


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## Connie W (Aug 3, 2011)

UndinesSeamstress, thankyou, that was helpful. I am a recently retired RN who always worried about getting caught up in a medical lawsuit. Now that that is hopefully behind me, I surely wouldn't want my knitting hobby to get me into trouble.


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## UndinesSeamstress (Dec 21, 2011)

Can we just STOP now? And perhaps listen?

My boyfriend used to lie about his kids' ages to get a reduced admission cost on things like fairs, movies, rides, whatever. This was VERY VERY close to being a deal breaker for me, as I have worked in the very kinds of places that he wanted to discount the price of for his own purpose. I had to explain to him, in front of his children, that he was teaching his children to steal, and that stealing is okay because parents have a huge effect on the moral behavior of their children. 

I've also taught college/university level classes, which is just a matter of fact, and has no bearing on my intelligence. Many students, like it or not, cheat. They pass off another's work as their own--that's plagiarism. Making an item from a pattern and then saying that you are the designer is also plagiarism. And plagiarism is so easy to figure out. I found myself actually offended that my students thought so little of my teaching ability that they thought they could get a cheat past me. When a student cheats, it's usually quite obvious.

Maybe just try to have a rule of thumb... we CAN personal message (PM) in this forum. If you like a pattern, send a personal message requesting the origination of the pattern to the person who posted it. Every one must, by his or her own conscience, decide what s/he will do with a request for a pattern.

I saw a shawl knit by a friend of mine on another site, and I sent her a public message asking her where she got the pattern, because I would like to buy it for myself. She happens to be an artist, as well as a knitter. My honesty in asking her for the source of the pattern rather than FOR the pattern inspired her to send me an original watercolor study for a painting that she's recently published. It came to me with a note to me personally and signed and dated. My honesty resulted in being enriched in ways I didn't expect.

So, you know what the right thing to do is. Do it. This is obviously a very hot topic, so like politics and religion, let's just agree to search the internet, or send a personal message to someone asking how to do the search. I'm ALWAYS more than happy to lend a hand when it comes to finding links and websites that may be helpful to someone. All you need do is ask.

Now, can we all just play nice?


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

Just an example here:
A copyright notice in Leisure Arts Books that I have...

All rights reserved. 
This publication is protected under federal copyright laws.
Reproduction or distribution of this publication or any other Leisure Arts publication, including publications which are out of print, is prohibited unless specifically authorized.
This includes, but not limited to, any form of reproduction or distribution on or through the internet, including posting, scanning, or e-mail transmission.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

galaxy, most books/booklets have that printed in them. I think part of the problem arises when someone copies a single page,or two and passes it on to someone else. The recipient then has no idea that the book contained this information. They then continue the "copy/duplication" process and like an avalanche it just gains momentum. 

This is why citing the source or a link is best.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

courier770 said:


> galaxy, most books/booklets have that printed in them. I think part of the problem arises when someone copies a single page,or two and passes it on to someone else. The recipient then has no idea that the book contained this information. They then continue the "copy/duplication" process and like an avalanche it just gains momentum.
> 
> This is why citing the source or a link is best.


I agree.
I am just re-iterating that the fact is you can not transmit over/through the internet as it does state it in copyright notices in books.

I also agree that it does all snow-ball.

Exactly, citing the source or a link to the pattern/pattern page is the best way to go.


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## nsnewfie1996 (Nov 19, 2011)

All I can say to this is ""OMG"" can we not just let it go...........


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## jnwynn (Feb 7, 2012)

And to muddy the waters further. http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml


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## hgayle (Aug 22, 2011)

I would just like to add that just because someone doesn't know the law, or anything else for that matter, is no excuse for someone to verbally attack that person. Courier770 apparently has had a bad experience in this area, but that's no excuse for the attack. This forum is for us to help each other and to share our ideas, not to get into arguments. It upsets me to read some of the things I've read in this topic.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

What attack? Someone made a very uncalled for comment regarding medication. Let's leave that behind. Copyright is a serious issue and today we have been discussing it very politely and intelligently. 

You are free to stop reading the thread though. Have a great day.


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## BarbaraSD (Mar 10, 2011)

jnwynn said:


> And to muddy the waters further. http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml


Now this is interesting. There are a lot of pattern designers who say the person can use the free pattern for their own use but cannot make and sell that item. According to this article one can. I just hope I don't start another explosion of controversy with this question.


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## nsnewfie1996 (Nov 19, 2011)

jnwynn said:


> And to muddy the waters further. http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml


Very interesting read indeed..... especially this section, makes one stop and ponder the ins and outs of "copyright"

""""""A pattern can be a template, or set of templates, for manufacturing an item, be it a birdhouse or a dress. Templates are not copyrightable. A pattern can also be drawings accompanied by instructions for knitting, crocheting or quilting. A method or procedure is not copyrightable. While the drawings themselves could possibly qualify for copyright protection, the actual instructions are not copyrightable. The only other aspect of patterns that could possibly qualify for copyright protection would be the artwork and that would only be if its intrinsic properties allowed it to be separable from the design, which very, very few designs can do. And to be enforced in federal court a copyright almost always must be registered with the US Copyright Office.

When someone releases patterns into the stream of commerce they effectively have relinquished control over the uses of that pattern. What we find disturbing is that there are so many people who want to believe that a pattern manufacturer or a fabric manufacturer has the right to tell you what you can and cannot do after you buy their product. It just is not so. Imagine if General Motors tried to tell you where and when to drive a vehicle you purchased from them. Would you listen to them? Of course not! Read what Carolyn V. Peters, Esq. says about patterns and why the pattern copyright does not cover the end product. She makes a few comments with which we take issue here.

Pattern designers do not have the legal right to tell you what you can and cannot do with patterns that you have purchased from them. Period. Even if the pattern is a federally registered copyright, and very, very few are, their claims exceed the rights granted under copyright law. Period. They are lying to you. Period. Why are they lying to you? We think some believe what they say. We think some are just plain fools running their mouths. The rest are control freaks. None are correct. """


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## BarbaraSD (Mar 10, 2011)

courier770 said:


> What attack? Someone made a very uncalled for comment regarding medication. Let's leave that behind. Copyright is a serious issue and today we have been discussing it very politely and intelligently.
> 
> You are free to stop reading the thread though. Have a great day.


I'm sorry about being childish about this, but YOU did start it, Courier. I do regret the comment about the "medication," but you have become a bit of a fear monger with lawsuit threats. You have made people fearing that their doors will be broken down in the middle of a dark and stormy night by the copyright police because they made a copy of a pattern.


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## Connie W (Aug 3, 2011)

Actually I am impressed that this discourse has gotten past the name calling to a civil and educating conversation. The latest entry opens another whole can of worms. That would explain to me why Oliver and S patterns are so reasonable andgracious with their requirements.


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## BarbaraSD (Mar 10, 2011)

Connie W said:


> Actually I am impressed that this discourse has gotten past the name calling to a civil and educating conversation.


Give it time. We may all just be getting a second breath and gearing up for Part II in this "discussion."


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## Niki-knitter (Jan 28, 2011)

Jnwynn, thank you for the info on copyrights! You have covered it completely! If Mon Tricot covered the pattern back in 1979.... & I purchased the magizine, along w many others, then they were placing the patterns out there for those that bought the issue. Then these yrs later(magizine is now NO Longer published) I think that the pattern is available for others to knit.... I am NOT planning to make money from the pattern. A simple mistake, on my part. The article you posted deals w many of the myths that people speak of here on this forum. Thanx for your input... Phew, I felt so guilty for sharing the pattern on here. At least I was NOT being devious about the reasons for sharing!
Joan


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## nsnewfie1996 (Nov 19, 2011)

joanaikens said:


> Jnwynn, thank you for the info on copyrights! You have covered it completely! If Mon Tricot covered the pattern back in 1979.... & I purchased the magizine, along w many others, then they were placing the patterns out there for those that bought the issue. Then these yrs later(magizine is now NO Longer published) I think that the pattern is available for others to knit.... I am NOT planning to make money from the pattern. A simple mistake, on my part. The article you posted deals w many of the myths that people speak of here on this forum. Thanx for your input... Phew, I felt so guilty for sharing the pattern on here. At least I was NOT being devious about the reasons for sharing!
> Joan


Joan, I never saw the post where you posted the pattern, but I personally do not think you did anything wrong.

If a pattern is still available for purchase then by all means if anyone is interested in making it they should be willing to purchase it, but on the rare occasion when one of our talented KP ladies would like to make an item that someone else did from a pattern that is no longer available to buy then what is the harm in sharing it with someone else.

It is a ""compliment"" to the original designer to see that their work is being carried on from generation to generation. It would be so sad to see something so lovely and wonderful get lost for all time.............


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Template patterns are a whole other issue and cannot be compared to knitting patterns. That's comparing apples to oranges.

No one is going to knock down any doors regarding copyright, it's civil law not criminal law, though a copyright holder has every right to seek redress from those who infringe on their copyright.

Read ALL of the government information on US Copyright, including the section regarding "damages", it's a real eye opener. Copyright is fairly easy to establish and the protection afforded is well worth the effort. Why would anyone lie about that? Why would they lie about what US copyright covers? The information is very easy to find.

What I do see is a lot of "opinion" being voiced on this subject from people who have not taken the time to read all of the information, especially the areas regarding duplication and distribution both in hard copy and electronic distribution.

It really saddens me to see people disregard this very valued set of laws. Our courts would not have bothered to craft them, if it were such a petty issue.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

jnwynn said:


> And to muddy the waters further. http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml


*And to muddy the waters even further, here is the truth about this web site. They make a disclaimer that they are not lawyers and as such they are not accountable for what they print or put out online. There can be no accountability with them because of this disclaimer. Others have totally disproven what they say. It is another one of those things that not every thing you read on the internet is the truth.*


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Just go to the horses mouth, the US Government website which lists all of the information on copyright. Never rely on a 3rd party to "interpret" the law especially when you can read it for yourself.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

BarbaraSD said:


> courier770 said:
> 
> 
> > What attack? Someone made a very uncalled for comment regarding medication. Let's leave that behind. Copyright is a serious issue and today we have been discussing it very politely and intelligently.
> ...


You know that you were way out of line Barbara. Yes, it is very frustrating and aggrevating when the truth is being presented and you effectively "slap the messanger" in the face. I have also never seen an appology for your attack. You were deliberately provocking this. I am sorry for calling it the way that I see it. Courier is well versed in copyright laws because it is part of the aspects that govern her income and you deliberately choose to voice a wrong opinion. And it was only an opinion, not the law. And in my opinion, you knew this beforehand.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

5mmdpns said:


> jnwynn said:
> 
> 
> > And to muddy the waters further. http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml
> ...


Am I the only one?
IMHO....
I actually did start to read it and then realized there was alot that was taken out of context of the US Copyright Laws.
Or things stated that were in existence way back when and not actually followed up with the amendments to the law of the present day.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

courier770 said:


> Just go to the horses mouth, the US Government website which lists all of the information on copyright. Never rely on a 3rd party to "interpret" the law especially when you can read it for yourself.


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## nsnewfie1996 (Nov 19, 2011)

courier770 said:


> No one is going to knock down any doors regarding copyright, it's civil law not criminal law, though a copyright holder has every right to seek redress from those who infringe on their copyright.
> 
> It really saddens me to see people disregard this very valued set of laws. Our courts would not have bothered to craft them, if it were such a petty issue.


I dont disregard this valued set of laws...... but can you honestly say that you have never copied a cassette tape or a CD in your entire life? I know as a kid and a teenager (which certainly wasn't yesterday) I have probably copied a cassette tape or two (didnt have CD's when I was a kid), but it was never done with the malicious intent of breaking the law


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

Galaxy, this tabberone website always comes up and being presented as gospel truth, swear it out on the Bible, cross my heart and hope to die! This is brought up by those who are gullible and uneduacated in the copyright laws. They do not take the time to read the entire website. This makes a mockery of what they say and the authors of this site are laughing their heads off.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

5mmdpns said:


> Galaxy, this tabberone website always comes up and being presented as gospel truth, swear it out on the Bible, cross my heart and hope to die! This is brought up by those who are gullible and uneduacated in the copyright laws. They do not take the time to read the entire website. This makes a mockery of what they say and the authors of this site are laughing their heads off.


This is the first time I had seen the site.
As I was just curious as to what was being said there... 
Well, I debunked it in my own head after a short time.

Nah...As Courier said...
I go straight to the horses mouth.
The US Government Offices have websites and all US Laws are now on-line for public viewing.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Galaxy, that website has come up before, the disclaimer sort of says it all, doesn't it?

Our courts, in their infinite wisdom, have crafted a set of laws to protect the intelligent property of the talented people who create. In the late 70's the laws were refined and as my copyright attorney says, they are going to be revamped and strengthened again soon. 

Gratitude seems to have a short half life in our society now.

No I never have copied a cassette tape or a CD, never felt the need to.


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## jnwynn (Feb 7, 2012)

And this is the key word, copyright, it has to be copyrighted to be violated. Many designers do not go that extra step to actually register it as copyrighted. Now I think it is unethical but so many folks believe if they simply stamp it as copyrighted that makes it so, it does not. I have tried to get a crocheted pattern copyrighted, the lawyers used the article I sent as a link, to explain if it were actually to land in court it would be completely up to the judge in the case as to which side they came down on. With that said it was impossible to get a single pattern copyrighted and quite frankly not worth the expense but did however get an ebook copyrighted with many patterns in it, well worth the money.

Many of these folks are using the common license as their copyright that is entirely a different issue. So it does pay to copyright your designs, patterns but remember they are not exclusive, it really is only how you have worded your set of patterns instructions since instructions aren't trademarked or copyrighted due to the words generally used. It is your intellectual property that can be copyrighted if you file the paperwork and pay the fee. Otherwise it's the luck of the draw with whether you lose or win in court and who argued the best on your behalf.

And it doesn't help if you have mailed yourself a copy either, that isn't copyrighted either.
Many patterns can be shared freely if they are past the life of the copyright usually 75 yrs, if the family has not reissued the copyright. This involves some research in the library of congress which holds all copies of copyrighted items.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Years ago people believed if they mailed themselves a copy it would be "self copyright", or "poor mans copyright", which is actually NO copyright.

Using an attorney that specializes in Copyright/Patents is most advisable.

I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would claim something was copyrighted if it wasn't though, seems counterproductive.


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## galaxycraft (Feb 15, 2011)

jnwynn said:


> And this is the key word, copyright, it has to be copyrighted to be violated. Many designers do not go that extra step to actually register it as copyrighted.
> *I am not sure that you can accurately state that many designers do not register their work.
> Hmmm....let's research, maybe even ask Debbie Bliss and all the other well known designers.
> What about the publishing companies...Leisure Arts...Annie's Attic and all the others.*
> ...


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## kangaroo (May 20, 2011)

JeanneE said:


> I have been asked by several of you kind knitters for a couple of different patterns for the bags and afghans that I have made.
> I would love to give them to you but being fairly new I am not sure about the copywrite laws. No, I don't know about them at all.
> I have several pattern books that I use but cannot find any copywrite info printed in or on the books. Does that mean that I can put the patterns on line or send a copy via mail?
> I have been on the forum for about 6 weeks now and absolutely love it. Have to start limiting my time online because it is so habit forming that I am cutting into my knitting time.


 :thumbup: Sooooooo happy you are still with us,for if you went away ,you would have been missed :| ....IRENE


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## -knitter (Aug 22, 2011)

jnwynn said:


> And to muddy the waters further. http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml


WOW!


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## BarbaraSD (Mar 10, 2011)

Missy, you need to re-read what Courier wrote to me when I was simply asking the difference between patterns and recipes. But I can see in your narrow-minded way you are interpreting what you choose to in her favor. I'm through with this asinine discussion. I told myself I was not going to get involved again with such simple-minded people and I need to follow my own advice.

BTW, give me the name of Courier's "design" company so I can be sure I don't contribute to her coffers. Goodness, I wouldn't sleep nights thinking I had one of her precious (?) patterns in my lowly possession!!



5mmdpns said:


> BarbaraSD said:
> 
> 
> > courier770 said:
> ...


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## kangaroo (May 20, 2011)

:wink: NOW come on kids lets all play nice


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## kathome (Dec 2, 2011)

Ya know, not for nothing, but I just now read all of the responses on this thread. While I'm saddened that people are so upset and really getting a bit nasty to one another I'm happy to see that the topic has not been shut down.

I am a member on another site which is apparently policed by the Gestapo and last fall revamped the entire site. 2 days ago I posted a thread asking members if they, like me, visited the site less since the new design and my thread was deleted by the administrators. 

Thank yo KP for allowing some hearty discussion!! (but please, let's be a bit nicer to our fellow humans????)


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## kangaroo (May 20, 2011)

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Connie W (Aug 3, 2011)

I like you, kangaroo. Actually I find you Aussies to be pleasantly laid back


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## jnwynn (Feb 7, 2012)

That is considered a terms of use, and that is prosecutable it just isn't copyrighted. Basically this means the person has placed this up for free but doesn't want you sell items or the patterns as your own. If that person found that you had they could sue you since you violated the terms of usage. Different issue.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

There seems to be two camps on this issue. One group understands and respects copyright, the other does not, it seems the two sides will never agree. The tabberone website is not a reliable source of information - just read the disclaimer on the site.

You can go to the US Government site on copyright for true,legal information on copyright. Or you can seek out a copyright attorney.

Laws in the United States are not up to interpretation by laymen. This seems to be the problem, people are trying to interpret the law to meet their needs or justify their actions. The second problem is that violation of copyright affects the income of another. Certainly no one here would want someone to reach into their purse or wallet and remove a few dollars every day. That's exactly what happens when a copyright holder has their work duplicated (in any format) and distributed.

Even free patterns from websites are copyrighted. This means the website wants people to visit their site and print the pattern for themselves. Some get paid by advertisers for "hits", others are yarn companies or on line retailers that want people to visit their site and hopefully make a purchase. Sharing from these sites is very simple, you post a link or email the link to a friend who is interested.

There are thousands of public domain knitting patterns for those who don't want to be bothered with this issue. Libraries have knitting books that you can borrow too.


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## jnwynn (Feb 7, 2012)

In other words go to the site, lawyer for copyright issues, copyright.gov is a good source. However don't state you have copyright when you don't understand it. You can not copy right methods, as such a line skirts are considered a method such as raglan or stockinette stitch, those are considered common usage. But when you put a set of instructions together that is copyrightable as your creative work. There were some issues in the past with items that were published online free at one point but that has been tightened up as well. 

It pays to understand this if you are selling patterns online. For most of us this is not very easily understood. I mean if a pattern is listed as free online, I go and print out ten copies to give out to others who are knitting items for charity is that a copyright violation, possibly. As a general rule it comes to ethics for me, I will contact the owner of the pattern and ask if I can copy it ten times to give to my prayer shawl group the majority of whom have no internet access for charity usage. I have only been told no once and that was by a Muslim woman who preferred her patterns not be used by Christians. I followed her wishes, that came down to ethics for me. It was her terms of usage, an entirely different set of rules, regulations concerning that issue.

It certainly should be something that folks direct others too. Now patterns I have purchased, no I would not share those with others. I have offered if they have no internet access to purchase the item for them, print it out and they pay me back for doing this. In other words they have paid for pattern I was just a middle man who assisted in the delivery of the item.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

It's not just pattern sales on line. Patterns sold as "hard copies", through shops, have been photocopied and passed around to friends also. Paid for downloads have also been printed out numerous times and passed around.

It's very frustrating to find that your copyrighted work is being "hijacked". There is no way to put a complete stop to it, one can only hope that people are honest and ethical.


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## mtalmage (Apr 5, 2011)

courier770 said:


> There seems to be two camps on this issue. One group understands and respects copyright, the other does not, it seems the two sides will never agree. The tabberone website is not a reliable source of information - just read the disclaimer on the site.
> 
> You can go to the US Government site on copyright for true,legal information on copyright. Or you can seek out a copyright attorney.
> 
> ...


I think this conversation has passed its course. But I have been thinking about it all day.

My thoughts. If we think about knitting in a historical context it was done as a survival skill. Women knit to keep their families warm. The skill was taught to girls very young and there probably were no patterns, per se. As I think back to America in the 19th century, there were occasions when it was a social opportunity as well, as women organized quilting bees, knitting bees, etc. And these gatherings were also an opportunity to share ideas, skills, projects, and PATTERNS.

The culture of women knitting (and sewing) has always included teaching and sharing and that continues even today with the "Stitch and Bitch" gatherings, knitting together at our lys, knitting over tea at a friend's kitchen table, talking and sharing here. It was probably only fairly recently, historically speaking, maybe only in the 20th Century (or late 19th?) that patterns began to be sold - by yarn companies, magazines, designers, etc. And so the conflict begins to arise. The knitters are still culturally thinking of sharing; the designers are thinking "business model". (btw, I am talking from observation and have done NO research on this topic. Anyone who has done any historical research please chime in and correct me.)

But, we are still living in a time of great historical change. These changes include more than our knitting conversation but include, among other things, electronic communications.

Whenever there are any type of cultural shifts you get- fireworks!


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

I do firmly believe that I am living in the here and now, and as such today's laws apply to me. Yes, taking a trip down the historical paths is all nostalgia but that is not dealing with the reality of today. Those bygone eras have no bearing on what the issues of today are. One can make a claim that they got "this" pattern in 532BC, but that is not reality, nor is it true. Today there are laws that govern almost every aspect of life and this is so when it comes to knitting patterns and copyrights. 

If you do really think that this conversation has passed its course, then you dont have to contribute or read it any longer but there are others who wish to continue the conversation. It is a learning/teaching tool that is so important to the knitting world and it covers all countries.
I am not being rude here, but just saying....if other people wish to continue on in this topic, they are free to do so.


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## mtalmage (Apr 5, 2011)

5mmdpns said:


> I do firmly believe that I am living in the here and now, and as such today's laws apply to me. Yes, taking a trip down the historical paths is all nostalgia but that is not dealing with the reality of today. Those bygone eras have no bearing on what the issues of today are. One can make a claim that they got "this" pattern in 532BC, but that is not reality, nor is it true. Today there are laws that govern almost every aspect of life and this is so when it comes to knitting patterns and copyrights.
> 
> If you do really think that this conversation has passed its course, then you dont have to contribute or read it any longer but there are others who wish to continue the conversation. It is a learning/teaching tool that is so important to the knitting world and it covers all countries.
> I am not being rude here, but just saying....if other people wish to continue on in this topic, they are free to do so.


Geesh. I was musing that the conversation has passed its course because it had been quiet and I thought no one would read my thoughts. But I was hoping some folks would or I would not have bothered to post them.

I was thinking about the problems we were having all day and was thinking the problems might have arisen from our historical culture of survival and sharing. And now times ARE different. I pointed that out. And as we move into the 21 century we will confront all types of new cultural shifts. I was simply musing about how we got into the problem we did and not trying to turn back the clock. You seemed to have totally missed my point.


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## courier770 (Jan 29, 2011)

Well those are valid points, though the same thing could be said about fashion, which is now an "industry".

Copyright as it applies to knitting and crocheting patterns probably IS a new concept to many. Though copyright laws were not originally written for this purpose. When you read through some of the largest copyright infringement cases in history, well knitting patterns just isn't anywhere on the list. Still, the law is applied because the material concerns the intelligent property of the person who developed it.

Copyright law should not be looked upon as an intrusion, it's a protection.

It would be nice if everything was free with no strings attached. That's just not the way the world works.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

It's all very well to think of cosy chats around the kitchen table, suffused with a golden glow and seen through a soft-focus lens. However, copyright has been around since the seventeenth century and statutes have specifically protected the rights of creatives since the beginning of the eighteenth century. It isn't new, although the rules have been amended and adjusted over the past three hundred years.

Dave


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

For anybody interested in historical precedents, it was the _Statute of Anne_, enacted in 1710, that first protected the rights of authors. Since it is now well and truly out of copyright, I have no problems posting this link to a scan of the original document and a transcript:

http://www.copyrighthistory.com/anne.html

I hope that helps
Dave


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## UndinesSeamstress (Dec 21, 2011)

mtalmage said:


> courier770 said:
> 
> 
> > There seems to be two camps on this issue. One group understands and respects copyright, the other does not, it seems the two sides will never agree. The tabberone website is not a reliable source of information - just read the disclaimer on the site.
> ...


You are absolutely correct, not that you need my approval... My mother is no ray of sunshine, but needlework is the ONE thing that we can talk about. In the last couple of years, I have developed by knitting skills by spades, and my mother now uses many of the techniques that I have picked up. Where she once showed me how to do a cable cast on, I've now taught her how to do several other ones. Where she once showed me how to do a yarn over, I've taught her to do a psso. And these conversations took place, by and large in the parts of our homes in which women more typically occupy.

These conversations did not include ANY part of copyright, fair use, or any cost other than that of the yarn. We have worked over confusing patterns, knit swatches to see how a pattern would work with a much used ball of Red Heart pound of love. We have helped each other ball yarn, combine colors, adjust patterns for whatever reason. We have engaged in a very nostalgic and loving narrative of what it means, what it is like, how we are perceived to live in such different worlds, and yet have this thread, this twine, this magical thing between us that melts aways the years between us, the cultures in which we both live, the products with which we make bread, and even the warmth of an afghan that has warmed us twice--once as it lay in a large lump in our laps, and another time as we wrap it around ourselves or sit underneath it, marveling at the enchantment that transformed a ball of yarn (or 30) into a work of beauty that serves the dual purposed of providing comfort.

I am reminded of a time when I was very ill with a flu. I was 29 years old, my mother was 64. I lived alone, but was far too ill to do my own laundry. She picked me and my laundry up from my apartment and brought me to her house where she did my laundry and sat me down in a cozy recliner in front of her television with a blanket that she had knit. I was barely able to move from that chair for a few days, so sick was I, but I remember that the blues, violets, and greens made my summer flu seem so less bad than it was.

Now that my mother is well into her 80's, it will be time soon for me to make her last knit garment, her shroud, so to speak, and her wrap to keep her shoulders and lap warm in the colder months. I shall make it with dragonflies on it, as she loves them so. And while I'm making it, I will give ABSOLUTELY no thought whatsoever to who is or is not getting paid a dime for what my hands lovingly make into which I will lay my mother to her final rest.

Please let us remember not why we design, but why we knit. We do it as an act of love, we do it for the love of the craft, and we do it for the love of community, if no longer sisterhood. Surely that which our hands lovingly make shall last FAR longer than the petty arguments that we have over a dollar here or there. And please let this be the end of this conversation... the horse is now dead, and no longer needs beating.


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## vjh1530 (Oct 8, 2011)

Undines Seamstress - Well said!! That was beautiful!


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## mtalmage (Apr 5, 2011)

Amen.


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## 5mmdpns (Jun 1, 2011)

Sentimentality and copyright law do not often mix together. That has been the root of the copyright disagreements -- knitters who want to do things the "old" way and them coming across the reality that copyright laws exist and do govern our knitting patterns. 

Undines, go ahead and knit a blanket for your mother -- no one is stopping you. What is a fact is that the pattern you use, may be copyrighted. No one is saying dont use it. What you are not to do is photocopy the pattern and pass it around and/or sell it to someone else. That is the copyright law.

And if you no longer wish to participate in the conversation about copyright laws, then dont. You can unwatch this.


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## pocono.carol (Nov 30, 2011)

Undines Seamstress I agree with you 100% we knit for the love of the art and the love of the people we knit for.

Courier770 and Dave I agree with you both 100%.

IMHO, the problem lies in that we are having two completely different discussions.

When I knit it warms me twice, the first is the act of giving a part of myself to someone I love and the second is giving warmth to someone I love. Without our beautiful patterns *and * instructions with new techniques, I could not create the gifts of love I give to my loved ones.

I have never been able to create anything, enhance it maybe, adjust it maybe, adapt it maybe. I NEED creative people to inspire me and challenge me. These creative people deserve to be rewarded. If having a copyright allows them protection and gives them the ability to create more works of beauty I have no issues with that.

Intellectual property again IMHO needs to be protected and must be encouraged.


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## UndinesSeamstress (Dec 21, 2011)

5mmdpns said:


> Sentimentality and copyright law do not often mix together. That has been the root of the copyright disagreements -- knitters who want to do things the "old" way and them coming across the reality that copyright laws exist and do govern our knitting patterns.
> 
> Undines, go ahead and knit a blanket for your mother -- no one is stopping you. What is a fact is that the pattern you use, may be copyrighted. No one is saying dont use it. What you are not to do is photocopy the pattern and pass it around and/or sell it to someone else. That is the copyright law.
> 
> ...


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## 29426 (Jul 26, 2011)

courier770 said:


> There seems to be two camps on this issue. One group understands and respects copyright, the other does not, it seems the two sides will never agree. The tabberone website is not a reliable source of information - just read the disclaimer on the site.
> 
> You can go to the US Government site on copyright for true,legal information on copyright. Or you can seek out a copyright attorney.
> 
> ...


If I check out a book from the public library, is it okay to make a working copy of a pattern and then return the book?


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## Connie W (Aug 3, 2011)

Well said, pocono, carol. My feelings exactly.

I found mtalmage's thoughtful musings added another whole aspect to this discussion and gave me some insights into why Some people are responding so emotionally. While copyright law goes back centuries, the ease with which patterns can be copied and distributed is relatively new thus compounding the problem.


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## FireballDave (Mar 18, 2011)

anne of green gables said:


> If I check out a book from the public library, is it okay to make a working copy of a pattern and then return the book?


There have been a couple of test cases in the UK, America is a separate territory, the courts found this to come under 'fair use' provided the working copy was destroyed following completion of the project. The main tests related to the making of enlarged copies for those with sight impairment, the courts found it was reasonable for a person to render a pattern, once legitimately obtained, useable for themselves provided the copies were temporary and destroyed after use.

So, if one purchases a pattern and makes a working copy and at the completion of the project the copy is destroyed, the net outcome is the original pattern and a finished article. In the library book instance, the net outcome is a finished article and the book back on the library shelf, with no other copies of the pattern remaining.

This is how the rules are applied in the UK, it may vary from territory to territory.

Hope that helps 
Dave


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## Tennessee.Gal (Mar 11, 2012)

I'll never forget my introduction to copyright infringement, aka stealing. I was a relatively new knitter and joined a group that met at the local yarn shop. One of the women had a beautiful felted bag. Without thinking, I asked if I could make a copy of the pattern. "That would be stealing," she replied coldly. I was sooo embarrassed and I know my face was the color of a tomato. Another knitter kindly explained the copyright rules, thus saving me from a life of crime.


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## nannymaid (Jul 7, 2011)

Well said Undines, well said - I agree with your comments 100%. Wish I could have responded in such a way when I was snapped at after a posting I made.


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