# kitchener tip



## dotdot (Feb 6, 2012)

i am finally mastering the kitchener stitch / about time as i have two pair of socks and five more socks that will need the toes grafted / recently i read somewhere (!) to not pull your yarn through the stitch until it is completely OFF the needle / oh my is this a wonderful tip / it enabled me to really "see" how the process worked / i still have an "ear" at the last stitch however !


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## lovey (Nov 11, 2011)

good for you!


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

dotdot said:


> i am finally mastering the kitchener stitch / about time as i have two pair of socks and five more socks that will need the toes grafted / recently i read somewhere (!) to not pull your yarn through the stitch until it is completely OFF the needle / oh my is this a wonderful tip / it enabled me to really "see" how the process worked / i still have an "ear" at the last stitch however !


Toe Up method eliminates ears and kitchner stitch. 2 for 1. just sayin'


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## tvarnas (Apr 18, 2013)

Good for you. I still can't do Kitchener, as hard as I try. I will not be defeated though.


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## Ronie (Jan 21, 2011)

I am mastering the Kitchener stitch this week too... That tip you gave was in my video too and its a great one.. plus the fact that the 2 set up stitches are just the last 2 you do in your other stitches.. so its easy for me to know how to begin with out the need for Youtube


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Ronie said:


> I am mastering the Kitchener stitch this week too... That tip you gave was in my video too and its a great one.. plus the fact that the 2 set up stitches are just the last 2 you do in your other stitches.. so its easy for me to know how to begin with out the need for Youtube
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Patsy Ruth (Apr 19, 2013)

This is the pattern for the first pair of socks I knit when I was 15. It explains how to close the toe. It did not give a name for the toe closure. I learned years later that I was doing the Kitchener stitch on all my socks but did not know what to call it. The pattern is dated 1948.


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## RookieRetiree (Jan 27, 2011)

Wow --- your first pair of socks and most of us would balk at starting with something that had an argyle pattern!! I guess at age 15, we're not scared off so easily. I've seen those patterns on ebay and wondered how well they translate to today's needles, etc. I'm sure they are time-tested and truly great patterns.


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## jmcret05 (Oct 24, 2011)

Here are some links to take care of that last stitch. Would probably apply to Kitchener also.

http://techknitting.blogspot.com/2008/12/ordinary-chain-bind-off-part-1-binding.html
http://knitfreedom.com/bind-offs/neaten-last-stitch-bind-off-flat-knitting
http://techknitting.blogspot.com/2007/05/easier-way-to-kitchener-stitch-also.html


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## jmcret05 (Oct 24, 2011)

Ooops!!


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## barcar (Jun 16, 2011)

I recently learned how to kitchner garter stitches which is easier than sewing together stocking stitch.


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## Neeterbug (May 25, 2011)

As for the last stitch of the Kitchener stitch...I saw a video that said if you take your darning needle and pull the yarn through the stitch right next to the last stitch into the inside of the sock, it will bring the "ear" flat with your stitches. I do this and it works. Hope I don't confuse you!!!

And, I'm one that really likes the Kitchener stitch...I am knitting a hot pad in the round (62 stitches)...using the provisional cast on ...then when long enough, I will use the Kitchener stitch to close the two ends...when finished it looks great.


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## dorarudin (Jun 15, 2014)

this is a great stitch I am also learning it , I am always looking for new tips and tricks ,
Dora


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## Gerripho (Dec 7, 2013)

I work the Kitchener stitch very loosly - much looser than it needs to be. After finishing the closure, I take a tapestry needle and pull the first Kitchener stitch up snug. Then I pull the second Kitchener stitch up snug. Since needles aren't in the way, I can actually see the stitches and make my Kitchener stitches more closely match the stitches on either side -- not too loose, not too tight. It's an extra step and takes a few minutes more, but it works for me.


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## LizMarch (Aug 26, 2014)

WindingRoad said:


> Toe Up method eliminates ears and kitchner stitch. 2 for 1. just sayin'


And that's exactly why I learned toe up! Kitchner and I did not become friends, lol!

I have to say I am a fan of how you do a cuff down heel/gusset so one day I will have to master this. But for now they are all toe up


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

dotdot said:


> i am finally mastering the kitchener stitch / about time as i have two pair of socks and five more socks that will need the toes grafted / recently i read somewhere (!) to not pull your yarn through the stitch until it is completely OFF the needle / oh my is this a wonderful tip / it enabled me to really "see" how the process worked / i still have an "ear" at the last stitch however !


You like this method because it lets you see what's happening, but there's something even better.

Here's something that's a little more work, but even easier for Kitchnering the toe of a sock. I always get a more perfect toe when I do it this way.

First, when you do the last two decrease rounds before the Kitchner, don't do an even row between them. Those two decrease rounds together will help cut down on the "ears."

Cut the yarn, leaving a long enough tail to do the Kitchner stich. Then use a contrasting smooth yarn of the same weight, but a different color (waste yarn), and do one round of purl stitch, then do a few more rounds of knit stitch, about a half an inch should do it.

Then, pull the needles out. The last bit of knitting, in waste yarn, will be pulled out anyway and it will stay together long enough to do the Kitchner row. You don't have to bind off.

Stuff the tube of waste yarn down into the sock so that the purl row on the top and bottom of the sock toe are together, ready to be joined.

Once you do that, you're going to notice that the waste yarn is holding each stitch of the last round of the sock exactly where it needs to be, right in position. It makes it so much easier to see what you're doing, and exactly where you have to stitch.

Once you're Kitchnered the rows together, reach into the sock and find the end of the waste yarn and start pulling on it. You'll frog the waste yarn, and get to watch the waste yarn disappear from a perfect toe like magic!

Save the waste yarn for the other sock. You can use it over and over again.


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## pat308 (Jun 11, 2012)

Craftsy has a free class on grafting. You can check it out.


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## Gerripho (Dec 7, 2013)

lostarts said:


> Here's something that's a little more work, but even easier for Kitchnering the toe of a sock. I always get a more perfect toe when I do it this way.
> 
> First, when you do the last two decrease rounds . . .


That sounds absolutely BRILLIANT!!! I may make the next pair cuff down just so I can try this out. Thanks! And thanks, again!


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## IndigoSpinner (Jul 9, 2011)

Gerripho said:


> That sounds absolutely BRILLIANT!!! I may make the next pair cuff down just so I can try this out. Thanks! And thanks, again!


That's not my idea. I got that from someone else on KP, on another thread a while ago that I don't know how to find.

There's someone else you have to thank for that, and I don't remember who.

It's a little more work, but it always turns out perfect because you can really _see_ what you're doing, and it all stays in place without trying to more or get away while you're doing it.

it's a brilliant idea!

Thanks to whoever thought of this!


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

LizMarch said:


> And that's exactly why I learned toe up! Kitchner and I did not become friends, lol!
> 
> I have to say I am a fan of how you do a cuff down heel/gusset so one day I will have to master this. But for now they are all toe up


You can do a gusset and flap toe up. I have before I learnt the FLKH. I have a pair on right now as we speak.


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## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

LizMarch said:


> And that's exactly why I learned toe up! Kitchner and I did not become friends, lol!
> 
> I have to say I am a fan of how you do a cuff down heel/gusset so one day I will have to master this. But for now they are all toe up


What heel do you normally do with toe-ups? I like my heels gusseted but don't like pu&k around a flap. Liat Gat's toe up heel flap socks (really a faux heel flap) and the Fleegle heel are my go-to heels. You could actually knit a heel flap on a toe up sock, I think I've seem video for it.


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## May (Jan 18, 2011)

Thanks. This post is priceless. Will save it, watch it, print it, download it, make it a favorite, and "bookmark" it, first thing!


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## tvarnas (Apr 18, 2013)

Thank you Lostarts for sharing this method. Last time I tried a darning egg inside the sock but I just couldn't get everything arranged right. I'm trying this method next time.


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## LizMarch (Aug 26, 2014)

GrumpyGramma said:


> What heel do you normally do with toe-ups? I like my heels gusseted but don't like pu&k around a flap. Liat Gat's toe up heel flap socks (really a faux heel flap) and the Fleegle heel are my go-to heels. You could actually knit a heel flap on a toe up sock, I think I've seem video for it.


I do one similar to Liat's faux heel flap, but learned it from a book before I saw her pattern. It's the closest thing I could find to a cuff down type of heel. I've looked at patterns that have an actual heel flap and picking up gusset stitches on toe up, but don't care for the shape of the heel cup when worked that way.

It's amazing how many options there are for doing socks! And a good thing too


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## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

LizMarch said:


> I do one similar to Liat's faux heel flap, but learned it from a book before I saw her pattern. It's the closest thing I could find to a cuff down type of heel. I've looked at patterns that have an actual heel flap and picking up gusset stitches on toe up, but don't care for the shape of the heel cup when worked that way.
> 
> It's amazing how many options there are for doing socks! And a good thing too


 :thumbup: Yup, good thing. I avoid pu&k on things like socks. Other places where it avoids seaming it's the lesser of :twisted: evils.

I've yet to try a heel first sock. I did one pair of cuff downs, that was enough. I have ribbed tube socks OTN now, started at the toe with that chimney toe thing and ran the tail through the first stitches to close it up. I came across that in a thread about circular cast on (I think) here on KP. It's amazing how much there is to play with and experiment with.


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## Knitcrazydeborah (Oct 25, 2011)

Avoid "ears" in every situation by knitting the last stitch "in the row below". That means putting the needle into the last stitch one row below the stitch on the needle. Works every time.


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## clwise (May 19, 2011)

Here's a link to "how to do a Kitchener" with or with out a darning needle. I prefer to knit my Kitchener stitches, better tension, less ears.

http://blog.loveknitting.com/how-to-do-kitchener-stitch-with-or-without-a-darning-needle/?utm_source=Loveknitting&utm_campaign=d58836e2c1-191014_LOVECRAFTS_ROW&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_a0f9d56561-d58836e2c1-49444481&mc_cid=d58836e2c1&mc_eid=9000aa8c1c


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## stitcheswarden10 (Jul 24, 2014)

I am in total LOVE with the Kitchener stitch. After knitting it I leave my work out to admire how beautiful it finishes the toe. It's amazing!! For any of you who are struggling just keep trying!


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## Irene H (Nov 19, 2012)

Patsy Ruth said:


> This is the pattern for the first pair of socks I knit when I was 15. It explains how to close the toe. It did not give a name for the toe closure. I learned years later that I was doing the Kitchener stitch on all my socks but did not know what to call it. The pattern is dated 1948.


This pattern was for my first sox, also. Must have been popular. There were no designations like, easy, intermediate etc. you just followed directions. I never knew that some patterns were hard or sometimes wrong. No fear as a child, I guess.


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## MartyCare (Feb 16, 2011)

Yes, I use that tip. Another thing that made it easier for me, the way my thinking goes-- When I put my needle through two stitches, the back of the stitches touch each other. I knit them as if to knit or as if to purl, whatever is better so that the two stitches touching each other are back-to-back.
Carol K in OH


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## mzmom1 (Mar 4, 2011)

WindingRoad said:


> Toe Up method eliminates ears and kitchner stitch. 2 for 1. just sayin'


 And all that frustration, too. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2012)

GrumpyGramma said:


> What heel do you normally do with toe-ups? I like my heels gusseted but don't like pu&k around a flap. Liat Gat's toe up heel flap socks (really a faux heel flap) and the Fleegle heel are my go-to heels. You could actually knit a heel flap on a toe up sock, I think I've seem video for it.


It is easy enough to add a mini gusset to a Fish Lips Kiss Heel. I have found that if I add 2 to 4 stitches to the instep side of the sock, work the FLKHeel...finish the heel turn, then k2tog to remove those extra stitches within the 1" after the turn and prior to beginning any patterning on the leg.
Jane


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## dotdot (Feb 6, 2012)

i been here long enough to know someone would say Toe Up ! smile i am dedicated to the perfect top down gusset sock / i am using Knitting Vintage Socks by Nancy Bush / there are several other toes that she shows that do not use the Kitchener / i am also dedicated to learning what i tend to mess up / thanks for all the tips and help / i also learned myself (sic) how to knit socks at age 14 / right you, are no one told me it was hard or worse, terrifying, just follow the directions / cant recall how i did the toes / boyfriends never complained so they must have been okay


WindingRoad said:


> Toe Up method eliminates ears and kitchner stitch. 2 for 1. just sayin'


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## cathbeasle (Jun 8, 2012)

After I finish removing the last two stitches I adjust my stitches, if needed, then pull my yarn through to the inside with a little tug and that "ear" you are talking about disappears. Then weave in your end as usual.


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## roneesmom (Mar 17, 2014)

I just learned how to do the Russian join (Kitchener with a crochet hook). Liat Gat has the tutorial on YouTube. So much easier and looks the same.
Nancy


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## Hesska (Jan 10, 2012)

I discovered a new cast on method....Turkish cast on eliminates the need for toe grafting if knitting toe up. It's a bit fiddley bit it's awesome


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## Nitting_More (Nov 8, 2011)

lostarts said:


> That's not my idea. I got that from someone else on KP, on another thread a while ago that I don't know how to find.
> 
> There's someone else you have to thank for that, and I don't remember who.
> 
> ...


I would give credit to Lucy Neatby. I saw it a couple of years ago in one (or more) of her videos. I believe she calls it the "sock chimney," but of course you can use it anywhere you need to Kitchener.


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## norma goodrich (Dec 31, 2013)

thank you


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## attycasner (Apr 25, 2013)

Patsy Ruth said:


> This is the pattern for the first pair of socks I knit when I was 15. It explains how to close the toe. It did not give a name for the toe closure. I learned years later that I was doing the Kitchener stitch on all my socks but did not know what to call it. The pattern is dated 1948.


That is priceless. Glad to see I am not the only one that " keeps everything."


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## Obsessed (Jan 22, 2012)

Ronie said:


> I am mastering the Kitchener stitch this week too... That tip you gave was in my video too and its a great one.. plus the fact that the 2 set up stitches are just the last 2 you do in your other stitches.. so its easy for me to know how to begin with out the need for Youtube
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ronie (Jan 21, 2011)

LizMarch said:


> And that's exactly why I learned toe up! Kitchner and I did not become friends, lol!
> 
> I have to say I am a fan of how you do a cuff down heel/gusset so one day I will have to master this. But for now they are all toe up


it has taken me a long time to get it in my head but once it was there the Kitchener stitch is very simple to do... although I love toe up 2 at a time socks.. there is no getting around the Kitchener Graft when doing lace shawls or scarfs that need matching ends!!


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## attycasner (Apr 25, 2013)

WindingRoad said:


> Toe Up method eliminates ears and kitchner stitch. 2 for 1. just sayin'


It also eliminates picking up stitches at the heel and/or gusset. I always find decreasing stitches easier and looks better than increasing or picking up.


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## rkr (Aug 15, 2012)

Nitting_More said:


> I would give credit to Lucy Neatby. I believe she calls it the "sock chimney," but of course you can use it anywhere you need to Kitchener.


Absolutely, Lostarts and NittingMore. Totally agree and wish everyone knew this method.
I had just posted images of the Chimney Toe on Thurs: with one exceptionI PURL the 1st round of the waste material. This does 2 things: 
- making the sts lay flat next to each other (not needing to dig into the 'back leg' of each st going up or downwards)
- making the tops of the final round stand out from the waste material.
- or knit the waste of a much lighter wt yarn so the tops of the final round sts have open space round them, making it easier to get the darning needle into/out of them w/o distortionthere's only so much room to maneuver when the sts are already filled w/waste thread.

Even Ms Neatby used knit sts on top of knit sts which didn't differentiate the waste material so puling sts those st tops off nicely. Purling the first round is the next evolution in this technique.
- It also creates a 'fold' line, like creating a hem fold, so the waste chimney tucks down inside and stays there; the st tops are standing up smartly w/o having to keep pushing the waste down inside.
- And your darning needle is clearly in sight w/o ever having to go through waste yarn material.
See topic - http://www.knittingparadise.com/t-299254-2.html

Some of the originals -
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/ccn/info/Business/Tradewind/tbsoctoe.html
http://artemiswolf.blogspot.com/2013/01/sock-chimneys.html
http://www.lucyneatby.com/index.php?specific=1000567

I also use a shiny/slick threadrayon chainetteso that one needn't unravel the waste yarn but just pull out the slick thread to separate the waste from the toe end.


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## tvarnas (Apr 18, 2013)

clwise said:


> Here's a link to "how to do a Kitchener" with or with out a darning needle. I prefer to knit my Kitchener stitches, better tension, less ears.
> 
> http://blog.loveknitting.com/how-to-do-kitchener-stitch-with-or-without-a-darning-needle/?utm_source=Loveknitting&utm_campaign=d58836e2c1-191014_LOVECRAFTS_ROW&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_a0f9d56561-d58836e2c1-49444481&mc_cid=d58836e2c1&mc_eid=9000aa8c1c


Thank you so much for this. Her instructions seem clear so I'll use them next time. Thanks again


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## kerrie35094 (Jul 2, 2011)

stitcheswarden10 said:


> I am in total LOVE with the Kitchener stitch. After knitting it I leave my work out to admire how beautiful it finishes the toe. It's amazing!! For any of you who are struggling just keep trying!


It makes me smile seeing others who enjoy the Kitchener as much as I do. it is such a neat finish and there is a sort of zen to it as you talk your way across the toe. In fact, here's a tutorial about The Zen of Kitchener:

http://nelkindesigns.blogspot.com/2010/08/zen-of-kitchener-stitch.html


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## Micromegas (May 22, 2012)

What works for me is to knit a "tag" of waste yarn onto the live stitches to be grafted, and then use the loops of waste yarn to guide me in stitching the loops of kitchener stitch. Have never gotten the knack of doing kitchener with the live stitches still on the needles. Too confusing!


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## bethn (Dec 26, 2012)

I like Kitchener stitch also. And I've never had a problem with "ears." I just take the needle with the yarn down through the very end of the stitching and weave in on the underside. Nary a bump. 
I've also (within the last couple of days) learned Tubular Cast Off and how Kitchener works with that one. What a gorgeous finish. Now, I'm probably going to be using provisional cast ons so I can get that look on both ends!



Neeterbug said:


> As for the last stitch of the Kitchener stitch...I saw a video that said if you take your darning needle and pull the yarn through the stitch right next to the last stitch into the inside of the sock, it will bring the "ear" flat with your stitches. I do this and it works. Hope I don't confuse you!!!
> 
> And, I'm one that really likes the Kitchener stitch...I am knitting a hot pad in the round (62 stitches)...using the provisional cast on ...then when long enough, I will use the Kitchener stitch to close the two ends...when finished it looks great.


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## kerrie35094 (Jul 2, 2011)

Thank you, rkr, for such detailed info. Page bookmarked for future reference for the next sock.


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## Conime (May 17, 2014)

Ronie said:


> I am mastering the Kitchener stitch this week too... That tip you gave was in my video too and its a great one.. plus the fact that the 2 set up stitches are just the last 2 you do in your other stitches.. so its easy for me to know how to begin with out the need for Youtube
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## machriste (Jan 26, 2011)

tvarnas said:


> Good for you. I still can't do Kitchener, as hard as I try. I will not be defeated though.


On YouTube I found a kitchener stitch knitted instead of sewn. It's a little complicated, but i watched it several times, actually wrote down the rows and found it worked very well. Just google knitted Kitchener at the Youtube site to check it out.


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## cookie68 (May 5, 2012)

When we are young, no one tells you how hard it is. so you just do it. After knitting for a year made Irish Fishermen sweaters, and they were good enough I had order for them.


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## KnitterNatalie (Feb 20, 2011)

Thanks so much for sharing this tip!


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## uknurse (Sep 30, 2011)

Thanks so much for the tips.I have always been a bit hesitant to do this.


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## jbaumgart (Oct 7, 2011)

I love the Kitchener stitch and would love to meet the clever person who came up with it! I have found that, with the last stitch, when I pull the thread into the toe to weave it in before cutting the yarn, that this takes care of that awkward stitch. Then, with the sock right side out, I fold it and gently "stretch" the toe and the stitches just move where they're supposed to be and it looks great.


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## vtblume (May 6, 2011)

Thanks for this video link 



 - much easier to understand than the one I had been using. Surprise of all surprises, after looking at it I now actually understand the process and don't think I will need to look it up every time! Great instructions. Yahoo!-Leila


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## Knitpicker2 (Jan 31, 2011)

I, too started a pair of argyle socks from a kit when I was about your age. Never did get past the heel since they were so tight, they never would have fit anybody. Did keep them, however. Thought they were wool, but recently find out the yarn was nylon! Maybe that's why there was no "give" to them! Unraveled the yarn might make a good reinforcement to heels and toes of the socks I make today!


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## tvarnas (Apr 18, 2013)

machriste said:


> On YouTube I found a kitchener stitch knitted instead of sewn. It's a little complicated, but i watched it several times, actually wrote down the rows and found it worked very well. Just google knitted Kitchener at the Youtube site to check it out.


Yes, I saw that on the loveknitting link that clwise added. Also, I have a book that shows the Russian join. They might be similar so I'll be trying these too. Thank you.


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## storp (Jul 9, 2012)

One warning: don't try to do Kitchner stitch while chatting with other. It is one stitch that needs your total focus!


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## tvarnas (Apr 18, 2013)

kerrie35094 said:


> Thank you, rkr, for such detailed info. Page bookmarked for future reference for the next sock.


I agree. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## rkr (Aug 15, 2012)

jbaumgart said:


> I love the Kitchener stitch and would love to meet the clever person who came up with it!


LOL then you're exactly a century too late...
http://blog.loveknitting.com/kitchener_stitch_a_history/?blog_source=/how-to-do-kitchener-stitch-with-or-without-a-darning-needle/
British Secretary of State for War, (Lord) Horatio Herbert Kitchener, associated himself with the Red Cross drive to urge women to knit comforts or items for the men in the military, particularly mittens, socks and scarves. He was concerned about the foot problems the sock seams caused and personally contributed a pattern for socks which included a seamless grafting technique that would come to be known as the Kitchener stitch.
I read the page of Kitchener w/o a Darning Needle w/interest. Instead of using a darning needle she uses the tip of a knitting needle. One must still understand the basic Kitchener process of in - out, on - off sts. 
In my example of the reversed round I found it easier to then actually see the knit sts as flat work and could see where the path of the thread needs to go, either into (in from the front side/top) or out of (from underneath.)

Instead of working through 2 sts on each needle on each pass - and is it "as if to knit or purl each one"? one can see the entirety of each st across the row and that the adjacent 2 sts on each needle are done together in a single pass.

For St St it's - in from the top and come up out of (from underneath) the adjacent st. 
Then the SAME series of moves: in from the top and come up out of [from underneath] the adjacent st) on the other set of sts.
Garter st in the opposite - depending on what round/row was last worked; it's one of the above motion series and the other side has the opposite pathup from underneath and down into the adjacent st. Or 2 of the from-underneath passes first.

In analyzing knitting it's seen that the st tops form bumps which are either underneath the fabric (St St) or on top (Garter st)

And there's no question of remembering when to drop each st from the knitting needle. I should add a pictorial of this too, to convince of its easier method.


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## jbaumgart (Oct 7, 2011)

thank you for that information  From a man, very clever! I am fascinated by the mechanics of the procedure..what made him think that by holding two needles parallel and going into the front as to P and thn into the back as to K then back into the front as to K that the result would be and exact graft. Boggles my mind but now I know that the person responsible is a "he" and he's long gone.


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## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

JTM said:


> It is easy enough to add a mini gusset to a Fish Lips Kiss Heel. I have found that if I add 2 to 4 stitches to the instep side of the sock, work the FLKHeel...finish the heel turn, then k2tog to remove those extra stitches within the 1" after the turn and prior to beginning any patterning on the leg.
> Jane


I'm glad you like doing heels this way, enjoy. For me, it's not gonna happen. I do a high or very high instep which means I double or more than double the number of heel stitches. Anything else and the sock won't fit right for anyone I knit for. If I'd given out socks with just the basic short row heels in the first place they wouldn't know how truly wonderful well fitted socks are so I blew it. :lol: I've looked at FLKH posts and pictures and no matter what, they always look like there is too much stress on the short rows. I like Fleegle and the toe up faux heel flap heels. My first set of Fleegle heels are into their third winter of lots and lots of wearings and washing machine rides and they still don't show any signs of stress on the heels. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## yarnawhile (Apr 9, 2012)

Wow, I'm so glad I looked into this post, what a wealth of information. Thank you to all who contributed.


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## joand'5 (Aug 27, 2011)

Can toe up socks be knitted on dpns?


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## rkr (Aug 15, 2012)

jbaumgart said:


> I am fascinated by the mechanics of the procedure..what made him think that by holding two needles parallel and going into the front as to P and thn into the back as to K then back into the front as to K that the result would be and exact graft.


That's what engineers can do naturally - and prob think that everyone can 'see' things like this.
(Toeup) Sox on DPNs (Judy Becker's Magic Cast On is done on 2 parallel needle tips) standing in for 2 DPNs done for a long time that way - until someone figured out that a circ can also be used in Magic Loop and eliminate the porcupine ends! (showing my preference, I guess)


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## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

joand'5 said:


> Can toe up socks be knitted on dpns?


They sure can.


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## jbaumgart (Oct 7, 2011)

rkr.. thank you for sharing that with me. Of course! An engineer WOULD be able to "see" that in his mind...I guess you can tell that I am not an engineer. Tried the circs instead of dpn's but didn't like it. I'm a creature of habit, in this regard, so I'll keep on keeping on with my dpn's, top-down and Kitchener graft socks  Your input has certainly brightened my day, thanks again


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## Mar 18 (Feb 4, 2011)

That looks like the first knitting pattern I used when I was 19. I make mostly hats for children now that I am 82 !!!! Mar18. ;-)


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## kittenosmall (Dec 31, 2012)

Hi, I get the ear with the last stitch too but if I pull it through to the wrong side and pull tightly it disappears, happy knitting


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## Laujob (Sep 5, 2014)

Loved seeing your argyle sock pattern. I made several pairs of argyle socks for my husband in the 1950's. My mother and a sister and I would sit around the table in the evening and knit. The pattern we used was a flat pattern with the argyle pattern from the cuff to the toe. Can't remember what sewing technique we used, but my DH loved them and wore them as often as he could, so they must have been comfortable.
Joyce


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## Hannelore (Oct 26, 2011)

I have only just mastered Kitchener stitch myself because a friend showed me how to do it. Anything that makes finishing off socks easier is always good to learn.


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## chooksnpinkroses (Aug 23, 2012)

tvarnas said:


> Good for you. I still can't do Kitchener, as hard as I try. I will not be defeated though.


Have you ever tried doing it with the work inside out? I find it much easier that way. First time I grafted a toe together I found half the stitches were 'purl' instead of 'knit'. So I thought if I turn it inside out I can do them all 'purl' and it worked. It is really easy. have done it that way for over 30 years.


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## tvarnas (Apr 18, 2013)

chooksnpinkroses said:


> Have you ever tried doing it with the work inside out? It is much easier that way.


Hmmm, have to try this. There are so many great suggestions on this thread!


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## namacox48 (Sep 27, 2014)

You mean all I have to do to finish the Kitchener stitch anywhere I am using it is to do the two purls? I have been trying to get that darn stitch right for two weeks now. I got it ok, but it still needs work. I simply can not stop or look away while doing it or I am lost. I am also remembering why I never make things for family. They are all so ungrateful for all the work and expense that goes into a knitted garment. I don't think anyone would purchase anything I make so I just make for myself and as gifts for friends. This month I have broken that rule and now am nervous that the family will not like anything I have made. Oh well I suppose they will make good re-gifts!


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## EweLaLa (Jun 12, 2014)

Kitchner stitch is very easy, heel gusset is very easy--just follow the directions with the pattern--no toe up for me!


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## sherrit (Jul 20, 2014)

Patsy Ruth said:


> This is the pattern for the first pair of socks I knit when I was 15. It explains how to close the toe. It did not give a name for the toe closure. I learned years later that I was doing the Kitchener stitch on all my socks but did not know what to call it. The pattern is dated 1948.


First pair?! I am definitely impressed!


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## sherrit (Jul 20, 2014)

rkr said:


> LOL then you're exactly a century too late...
> http://blog.loveknitting.com/kitchener_stitch_a_history/?blog_source=/how-to-do-kitchener-stitch-with-or-without-a-darning-needle/
> British Secretary of State for War, (Lord) Horatio Herbert Kitchener, associated himself with the Red Cross drive to urge women to knit comforts or items for the men in the military, particularly mittens, socks and scarves. He was concerned about the foot problems the sock seams caused and personally contributed a pattern for socks which included a seamless grafting technique that would come to be known as the Kitchener stitch.
> 
> Thanks for this history. I've been wondering where the name came from.


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## sherrit (Jul 20, 2014)

joand'5 said:


> Can toe up socks be knitted on dpns?


I have only done them on dpn's.


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## sherrit (Jul 20, 2014)

namacox48 said:


> I am also remembering why I never make things for family. They are all so ungrateful for all the work and expense that goes into a knitted garment. I don't think anyone would purchase anything I make so I just make for myself and as gifts for friends. This month I have broken that rule and now am nervous that the family will not like anything I have made. Oh well I suppose they will make good re-gifts!


People seem to love knitted items or they don't. One can always knit for charity when one runs out of items to knit for oneself. If your family doesn't appreciate your knitted items, don't feel bad, just don't knit for them anymore. Find someone who does like hand knits.


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## TravelKnit (Feb 23, 2013)

WindingRoad said:


> Toe Up method eliminates ears and kitchner stitch. 2 for 1. just sayin'


Amen!!


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

TravelKnit said:


> Amen!!


And so easy. I think that's what scares some people. LOL


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Opps. Laughing so hard I hit the send key twice.


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## SarahRussell (Jun 14, 2011)

tvarnas said:


> Good for you. I still can't do Kitchener, as hard as I try. I will not be defeated though.


Turn off the radio, TV, and tell whoever is in the house not to bother you until you resurface. Then set the instructions on a table in front of you, say them out loud a couple of times, lay out the pieces on the table, and repeat the instructions out loud every time you do the stitch all the way across. It is a beautiful finish, and I love it, but I have to go through this routine every time I do it.


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## TLL (Jul 15, 2012)

Ronie said:


> I am mastering the Kitchener stitch this week too... That tip you gave was in my video too and its a great one.. plus the fact that the 2 set up stitches are just the last 2 you do in your other stitches.. so its easy for me to know how to begin with out the need for Youtube
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

NRoberts said:


> I have to do the Kitchener today on a balaclava I finished last night.
> 
> The Kitchener close is why i switched to the Turkish (toe-up) cast on for socks.


 :thumbup:


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## EweLaLa (Jun 12, 2014)

I use the Kitchner stitch not only on toes of socks but to attach the front and back shoulder seams of sweaters. Like everything else after you do it a few times it makes sense, or if you really don't like it find something to knit that you enjoy  Knitting should be fun and relaxing.


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## Deeknits (Apr 28, 2011)

clwise said:


> Here's a link to "how to do a Kitchener" with or with out a darning needle. I prefer to knit my Kitchener stitches, better tension, less ears.
> 
> http://blog.loveknitting.com/how-to-do-kitchener-stitch-with-or-without-a-darning-needle/?utm_source=Loveknitting&utm_campaign=d58836e2c1-191014_LOVECRAFTS_ROW&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_a0f9d56561-d58836e2c1-49444481&mc_cid=d58836e2c1&mc_eid=9000aa8c1c


I recently found this same video to knit the Kitchener stitch...Love it. Now, I'll never again avoid patterns that have to be grafted!


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## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

EweLaLa said:


> I use the Kitchner stitch not only on toes of socks but to attach the front and back shoulder seams of sweaters. Like everything else after you do it a few times it makes sense, or if you really don't like it find something to knit that you enjoy  Knitting should be fun and relaxing.


Kitchener stitch is great but I think a three needle bind off to provide the stability of a seam is better for shoulders. If you like doing it this way that's great, but for most people it's not a good idea. A seamless construction at the shoulder lets things stretch more than is typically wanted in this area; a seam helps things stay in place nicely and provide the desired fit.


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## EweLaLa (Jun 12, 2014)

I have not had that problem at all or I wouldn't do it--I really like the way it looks.



GrumpyGramma said:


> Kitchener stitch is great but I think a three needle bind off to provide the stability of a seam is better for shoulders. If you like doing it this way that's great, but for most people it's not a good idea. A seamless construction at the shoulder lets things stretch more than is typically wanted in this area; a seam helps things stay in place nicely and provide the desired fit.


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## Sandi B (Mar 1, 2013)

I am reinvigorated after reading all these comments. I have 4 days off for the Thanksgiving Holiday and I will learn the Kitchner! I have at least 10 pairs of toes to complete.


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## PaKnitter (Mar 7, 2011)

namacox48 said:


> You mean all I have to do to finish the Kitchener stitch anywhere I am using it is to do the two purls? I have been trying to get that darn stitch right for two weeks now. I got it ok, but it still needs work. I simply can not stop or look away while doing it or I am lost. I am also remembering why I never make things for family. They are all so ungrateful for all the work and expense that goes into a knitted garment. I don't think anyone would purchase anything I make so I just make for myself and as gifts for friends. This month I have broken that rule and now am nervous that the family will not like anything I have made. Oh well I suppose they will make good re-gifts!


I can not stop in the middle of it either and it never fails I will be interrupted by someone.


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## runswithscissors (Feb 3, 2014)

WindingRoad said:


> Toe Up method eliminates ears and kitchner stitch. 2 for 1. just sayin'


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## KJKnitCro (Aug 15, 2013)

Years ago, when our daughters were little, I knit sweaters with hoods. I knit them from the neck ribbing up, whether there was a pattern for them, or not. When the hood was tall enough, I grafted the top stitches instead of BO. Don't know how, but I figured it out somehow. It was definitely before the days of KP and Youtube videos. The seam was not entirely invisible always, especially when I got to the face edge, and ribbing or garter stitches. I use this stitch for doing the toes of socks these days, and welcome the notion that I can do this with a knitting needle, instead of a tapestry needle. I am thankful for every new trick I have learned. Thanks for sharing links to great tutorials. 

I've learned so much on KP!!!!!


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## GrumpyGramma (Oct 20, 2014)

EweLaLa said:


> I have not had that problem at all or I wouldn't do it--I really like the way it looks.


 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: 
If it ain't broke....

Generalities are just that, generalities. I'm so glad we can each do what we like and works for us. Thank goodness the knitting police are on a very extended coffee break. ;-)


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## Suesknits (Feb 11, 2011)

I've mastered this stitch. .. but usually refer to a video demo when I do it coz I forget. I'm glad I know it... it has many uses besides just socks.


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## cathbeasle (Jun 8, 2012)

Here is a cute little tool that I use when I do Kitchner stitch.

http://www.knitpicks.com/accessories/Sock_Doctor__D80775.html

If you click on the lower picture you can see the Kitchner stitch written out for you.


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## chooksnpinkroses (Aug 23, 2012)

WindingRoad said:


> Opps. Laughing so hard I hit the send key twice.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: You often make me laugh, WindingRoad. :thumbup:


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

chooksnpinkroses said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: You often make me laugh, WindingRoad. :thumbup:


Give miss cath the head's up. She's having problems.


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## WindingRoad (May 7, 2013)

Hesska said:


> I discovered a new cast on method....Turkish cast on eliminates the need for toe grafting if knitting toe up. It's a bit fiddley bit it's awesome


Patty Joy strikes again. LOL


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## Catarry (Apr 10, 2012)

RookieRetiree said:


> Wow --- your first pair of socks and most of us would balk at starting with something that had an argyle pattern!! I guess at age 15, we're not scared off so easily. I've seen those patterns on ebay and wondered how well they translate to today's needles, etc. I'm sure they are time-tested and truly great patterns.


 And how many pairs of argyles were worked for boyfriends!? Raging hormones = ambitious knitting :sm08:


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